It occurs to me that with the advanced iris, the still-super-strong fill factor, etc., this TV could become something of a reference display in the <$5,000 category. I'm not sure any plasma or DLP can deliver this combination of specs as well as remove all the single-chip issues.

Now the plasma can hang on a wall and the DLP will still deliver a great picture for less money, but owning a "reference display" doesn't come without some compromises. :)

We could have fun with that. :D

How about a picture of a man grinning when he died while having sex? :) :o

Sorry guys. I will try to stay on topic.

It occurs to me that with the advanced iris, the still-super-strong fill factor, etc., this TV could become something of a reference display in the <$5,000 category. I'm not sure any plasma or DLP can deliver this combination of specs as well as remove all the single-chip issues.

Now the plasma can hang on a wall and the DLP will still deliver a great picture for less money, but owning a "reference display" doesn't come without some compromises. :)Obviously I'm committed to SXRD by my purchase. Out of curiosity, how do you think the competing 1080p LCoS offerings from Hitachi, LG and JVC will fare against Sony's SXRD?

It occurs to me that with the advanced iris, the still-super-strong fill factor, etc., this TV could become something of a reference display in the <$5,000 category. I'm not sure any plasma or DLP can deliver this combination of specs as well as remove all the single-chip issues.

Now the plasma can hang on a wall and the DLP will still deliver a great picture for less money, but owning a "reference display" doesn't come without some compromises. :)

I agree. Based on the specs, I would say at this point in time no RP at any price will touch it!

Until a new 70 inch Qualia is produced :-)

but owning a "reference display" doesn't come without some compromises. :)

rogo, that is killing me.

I am all ready to plunk down my money this fall and finally get rid of my "reference" direct view Sampo 34" CRT, which has become way too small. The new Pioneer 50" plasma and the 50" SXRD are on the top of my list.

But the SXRD is butt-ugly with the tacky silver speaker ears and I know the wife will say no. But the PQ is likely to be superb.

The Pio plasma will likely have great form factor and PQ, but comes with a subconscious (maybe even irrational by now) fear of burn-in on my part.

I would get the SXRD in a NY minute if it were not for the silver ears. :mad:

Sony, what are you thinking???

I would get the SXRD in a NY minute if it were not for the silver ears. :mad:

Sony, what are you thinking???


Paint the ears black?

Paint the ears black?


I actually semi-seriously thought about it.

But the silver plastic is not just ears; it is also part of the set's chassis. Too difficult to paint (at least for me). Maaco time.

Any place on the web where you can order the TV besides the Sony Style site. Hopefully I can get a 10-15% off MSRP. I have been teetering between the Samsung DLP and this Sony. My mind is made up, the Sony wins. Just for comparison though the sony is deeper than the samsung.

Samsung 61" Model
56.9"(W) x 41.6"(H) x 18.4"(D)
94.6 Lbs.

Sony 60" Model
66" (W) x 39 3/4"(H) x 20 1/4"(D)
112 lbs. 7 oz.

Dimensions & weight
KDS-R50XBR1: 57-1/4"W x 34"H x 18-7/8"D; 94.8 lbs.
KDS-R60XBR1: 66"W x 39-3/4"H x 20-1/4"D; 112.5 lbs

This is from this Threads first page—is this still accurate?
What is the actual base “footing” measurement?

I would get the SXRD in a NY minute if it were not for the silver ears. :mad:

Sony, what are you thinking???


There are many reasons to hate the Dumbo-tron look. The ugly protruding side speakers. They’re like curb feelers on a ‘59 Eldorado

For me, it just takes the width-- over the top.

66 inches wide, geeze, I know this has been beaten to death but as we get closer to the release date-- see the press release-- the photos-- adrenaline cascading, and I finally stop the procrastinating and take out a tape measure and stretch it out 66 inches… Man that’s wide!
Damn those ears!

Paint the ears black?I prefer silver over black but here's black and dark grey...

Dimensions & weight
KDS-R50XBR1: 57-1/4"W x 34"H x 18-7/8"D; 94.8 lbs.
KDS-R60XBR1: 66"W x 39-3/4"H x 20-1/4"D; 112.5 lbs

This is from this Threads first page—is this still accurate?
What is the actual base “footing” measurement?

I have seen these measurements too. Wish it were a few inches less deep. I dont care about the width, to me it just makes the set look sleeker. I seem to be one of the few who like the ears........ :(

I am sorry to say that it is one ugly TV with them freaking speakers on the side...WHY would Sony not put them on the bottom...another thing why couldn't they make them removable...like the big guy...to bad because this set could of been the best looking set available...BAD SONY BAD!!!

I actually like the speaker on the side.

and the 60 inch is coming home

I prefer silver over black but here's black and dark grey...

WOW! UG. Thanks for the color mock-ups. Looking at the all black one, does NOT look good after all. The grey one would be my second choice (if I had to choose). I know I never voiced my opinion on the color of the vabinet BEFORE, but I think silver looks the best (well in this situation/on this component at least).

I actually like the speaker on the side.

and the 60 inch is coming homeBut if Sony was smart they would of had the speakers removable and that would make people like you who like the side speakers and people who don't happy...many of us don't even use the TV's speakers...so why not give the option of removing them...or at least put them on the bottom...must be a cost thing since they already had the molds. :(

I know nothing can be done about it but out of interest how would you all feel if Sony had added the side speakers to the SXRDs using the more integrated style of the WF655 and A20 like this...
http://www.sonystyle.com/intershoproot/eCS/Store/en/imagesProducts/650x650/KDFE55A20.jpg
I.e. bezel colored speaker area and no gap

AKASTP & EVERYONE,

I like the design of the WF655 and A20 [A10?]. Thanks for the link.

On another note does Sony have a Plasma out that looks exactly like the TV pictured in your link. The reason why I ask this is because at work they have a flyer posted that says if you sign-up for direct deposit with the credit union by/before August 30, 2005, you can win this plasma (and the show the exact same TV with the exact same picture "pictured" on the screen). I never seen a Sony Plasma with this style cabinet. Thanks for your help.

I know nothing can be done about it but out of interest how would you all feel if Sony had added the side speakers to the SXRDs using the more integrated style of the WF655 and A20 like this...
http://www.sonystyle.com/intershoproot/eCS/Store/en/imagesProducts/650x650/KDFE55A20.jpg
I.e. bezel colored speaker area and no gapI still prefer the "floating screen" look of the XS and SXRD sets over the A20 & WF's. Eventhough it's more contemporary than our casual leather sectional and rustic wood furniture, I think the design lightens the apparent overall mass of a large TV. As you walk by, it looks like a flatscreen suspended in a frame. On the other hand, if it were available in a cabinet like the A10 my wife and I would have to arm wrestle to see which one comes home. She really prefers the A10 series design.

Most of all I agree with the post above. If the speakers were removable it would end this silly debate.

On the other hand, if it were available in a cabinet like the A10 my wife and I would have to arm wrestle to see which one comes home. She really prefers the A10 series design.

What does the A10 look like (link anyone?, please)? Funny, when I do a Google search for 'sony a10 pic' and 'sony a10 photos' nothing comes back. Are they that new? Thanks.

What does the A10 look like (link anyone?, please)? Funny, when I do a Google search for 'sony a10 pic' and 'sony a10 photos' nothing comes back. Are they that new? Thanks.Here you go: --> Click Here <-- (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?CategoryName=tv_ProjectionTVs_RearProjection_42to51TVs&ProductSKU=KDFE50A10&INT=sstyle-KDFE42A10-upsell-KDFE50A10) :D

Thanks UG & AKASTP.

Didn't think about checking out the Sony Style site. I'm not quite sure what to make of the A10 design ("compartment" under the bottom of the TV). :confused: If I had to choose, I would definitely take the A20 design because of the SIDE SPEAKERS. Ahhhh..... there's nothing like seeing side speakers on your TV in the morning. :D

Speaking of speakers. Where are the speakers on the A10? I can't figure out where they are. Even when looking at the 'More Images' option.

Thanx.

Envision the opening under the screen on the A10 as a sideways "V". The speakers are in the top portion of "V" firing down and out.

I originally bought the 655 but hated the speakers hanging out there like huge ears. I now have the A10 and am completely satisfied. First thing I did though was turn off the internal speakers since we use a HT exclusively.

Here's a link to a bigger pic...
http://www.sonystyle.com/intershoproot/eCS/Store/en/imagesProducts/650x650/KDFE42A10.jpg

However I suspect this configuration would suit people who prefer not to have speakers in the TV or that don't use them.


That’s exactly what I want my set to look like. It looks like that now except it’s about half that size. :rolleyes:

All picture, no love handles.

Theres always the Hacksaw ala Jason coleman method :D

Theres always the Hacksaw ala Jason coleman method :D
Hacksaw...nah, I'd use my Sawzall! :D Actually, the design doesn't bother me that much...certainly not enough to perform my own "mod" on the set. I deeply wish that the side speakers were removable, but alas they're not...oh well.

Jason

Did anyone here pre-order through Crutchfield?

Re. XBR badge...doesn't that simply stand for X-Box Ready? :D

The following is an excerpt from the Audioholics website posted a couple of pages back.

"The panels produce a contrast ratio of 5000:1. Refinements to the panel circuit layout enabled Sony to reduce the pixel pitch on an individual panel to just seven micrometers, resulting increased pixel density, yields, quick response time and a brilliant film-like picture.

Maximizing the Picture
An "Advanced Iris" combines with the three panels and Sony's Cinema Black Pro mode to maximize up to 10,000:1 contrast based on overall light levels of the original signal."

I've been digging around to see how this compares to the Qualia 006 and haven't been able to find the specs relating to contrast ratio. Does anyone have this??

The following is an excerpt from the Audioholics website posted a couple of pages back.

"The panels produce a contrast ratio of 5000:1. Refinements to the panel circuit layout enabled Sony to reduce the pixel pitch on an individual panel to just seven micrometers, resulting increased pixel density, yields, quick response time and a brilliant film-like picture.

Maximizing the Picture
An "Advanced Iris" combines with the three panels and Sony's Cinema Black Pro mode to maximize up to 10,000:1 contrast based on overall light levels of the original signal."

I've been digging around to see how this compares to the Qualia 006 and haven't been able to find the specs relating to contrast ratio. Does anyone have this??

I believe the Qualia 06 speced a 3000 to 1 CR and a 5 ms response time.

Re. XBR badge...doesn't that simply stand for X-Box Ready? :D

Oh man, Sony would just LOVE that.

Sony has the official release posted: Here

There are also some hi-res pics on that page.

Thanks for the link Uninvited Guest.

My first impressions are not very positive. Using the image on the top, I attempted to open what I assumed would be a door below the screen so I could make some manual picture adjustments. Despite many attempts (I both right and left clicked), I was unable to get the door to fall open. Perhaps someone else will have better luck.

Next I went to the image below and searched on the table Sony sells to go with this set. I could find no remote that would allow me to access the set's controls in that manner. Maybe someone with younger eyes can spot the remote, but I am assuming there is none included with the set. At the prices Sony is charging for these models, I would call this an egregious oversight. Needless to say, it was pointless to attempt to use DVE or AVIA to refine adjustments!

Next, I decided to make an evaluation based on that with which I could work. I found the image of the sailboats to be most pleasing as regards color rendition. However, I was unable to see either the individual beads of sweat on the faces or individual hairs on the heads of the people on the boats. Indeed, I couldn't even discern their individual visages. The set's resolution seemed no better than that of my computer's crt.

On a more positive note, I detected absolutely no motion artifacts! Superb job, Sony. Of course, I cannot guarantee this will be the case with a fast-moving sporting event. Perhaps they could post a picture of a football in flight. Nor did I detect any SDE, SSE or STD's. Well...as to the last, as I said above, I couldn't see small details on the folks on the boats.

Last I examined the bottom picture featuring a totally black image on the screen. Sad to say, the plastic surrounding the screen appeared to be darker than the image itself. This leads me to believe the unit will be unable to do BTB.

Still early. Maybe folks evauating these sets in their homes can give us a better report.

rogo, that is killing me.

I am all ready to plunk down my money this fall and finally get rid of my "reference" direct view Sampo 34" CRT, which has become way too small. The new Pioneer 50" plasma and the 50" SXRD are on the top of my list.

But the SXRD is butt-ugly with the tacky silver speaker ears and I know the wife will say no. But the PQ is likely to be superb.

The Pio plasma will likely have great form factor and PQ, but comes with a subconscious (maybe even irrational by now) fear of burn-in on my part.



I would not worry about burn in at all, honestly. It's hard to do and if something bad occurs, you are savvy enough to reverse it (like a weekend pause by mistake).

For me, it's about size. The new Pioneer 60 is not due till next year and will likely run 2x as much. I'd very much like to own it or the new Panasonic with 1080p, but paying early-adopter prices at five figures seems like too much.

I am thinking the SXRD could last me 2-4 years with great delight and then I could get whatever the flat panel du jour is with 1080p and 65 inches or maybe even 70!

I think the Sony's combo of price for 60 inches and delivery date is its killer feature.

At least that's what I think today.

Anybody have anymore information on the dynamic iris? I am curious about it.

I was trying to figure out how fast these little motors would have to be to open or close the iris without getting some weird flashing effect. Ideally, you would want the dynamic iris to open or close at a scene transition (from light to dark or vice versa). If it opened or closed after a few frames were displayed after a particular scene transition, you may notice the effect.

From the pictures of the iris mechanism, it looks like it uses a run of the mill DC motor probably similar to the ones used in DVD drives to move the laser pickup. So, drawing an analogy to the motors used in DVD drives (right or wrong) I've found that typical DVD random seek times are >100ms, the iris would probably close or open faster than this though since it would be customized for a 4-step iris. At 1080p 30fps, a scene transition could happen within one frame or 33ms. So, if you could detect a scene transition, one frame ahead of time, you can time the iris movement pretty close. That's cool.

I wonder how they tie in the iris mechanism. Do they tie it to the MPEG decoder or is it to the LCD panel drivers? If it is tied to the MPEG decoder, then it wouldn't work for component, s-video or composite inputs. Like I said, this is just me being curious and rambling.

Anybody worried about these little motors losing strength or going out over time?

I would not worry about burn in at all, honestly. It's hard to do and if something bad occurs, you are savvy enough to reverse it (like a weekend pause by mistake).

For me, it's about size. The new Pioneer 60 is not due till next year and will likely run 2x as much. I'd very much like to own it or the new Panasonic with 1080p, but paying early-adopter prices at five figures seems like too much.

I am thinking the SXRD could last me 2-4 years with great delight and then I could get whatever the flat panel du jour is with 1080p and 65 inches or maybe even 70!

I think the Sony's combo of price for 60 inches and delivery date is its killer feature.

At least that's what I think today.

SED should be in full force by then giving you even greater options...

Anybody have anymore information on the dynamic iris? I am curious about it.
I was trying to figure out how fast these little motors would have to be to open or close the iris without getting some weird flashing effect.

Read the A10 thread and you'll get some info about how the iris is functioning in that set. Depending on how the owner sets it, some owners have described a flashing effect when the picture transitions between light scenes and dark scenes very quickly.

The sony website also has the full specs and product manual online. No 1080p input on HDMI or even the PC input. Very dissappointing. Since I am driving it via an HTPC, I want native 1080p. Looks like I have to wait for the LG.

Thanks,
Mike

I looked at the manual and I never saw anything about the HDMI not being able to accept a 1080p input. It just doesn't say anything about the HDMI. It says that the component inputs only accept 1080i and below.

Once I verify that the screen bezel is < 47" wide I'm snapping up one of these 50" puppies and out comes the dremel tool -- so long speakers!

-Jon

Anybody have anymore information on the dynamic iris? I am curious about it.

I was trying to figure out how fast these little motors would have to be to open or close the iris without getting some weird flashing effect. Ideally, you would want the dynamic iris to open or close at a scene transition (from light to dark or vice versa). If it opened or closed after a few frames were displayed after a particular scene transition, you may notice the effect.

If anybody is curious about the iris effect, I stumbled onto the perfect way to test it the other day while looking at an A10 in Sears. What was displaying I think was ESPN HD (I don't have HD yet so I'm not sure). It was currently showing something non-hd, or at least 4:3, though. On the side bars were these incredibly hideous gigantic blend thing with a huge HD instead of the normal black or gray bars. However, since it was a smooth blend which never changed with the rest of the picture, the effect of the iris was incredibly obvious.

During normal viewing it was fairly steady because the scene, and therefore the brightness, didn't change very often. It cut to a commercial or something however, where there were fast cuts of varying brightness and you could see the amount of the side bar blend which was visible change quite obviously. Several inches in some cases on a 50 inch set, so clearly the iris was having a large effect on which gray levels were capable of being shown, and which blended into black and were not visible.

In my brief observations the iris seemed to change fast, the scene cuts were not more than a second or two apart, but not instantanaeously. It did seem to ramp up or down to the new brightness smoothly, rather than snap instantly to the new brightness. I will say that, despite the fact that the effect was extremely obvious on the side bars, it was not obvious in the actual image since every time the brightness changed, pretty much the whole image changed.

The SXRD manual clearly states "HDMI IN - 2 Total - Video: 1080i, 720, 480p, 480i" on the Specifications page # 115. It also states Two channel linear PCM" for Audio over HDMI. I.e. no 5.1.


Right. And no 1920x1080 resolution support on the PC interface either! Now, it doesn't say that other settings won't work, but it only guarantees the traditional resolutions that LCD panels have supported in the past. It might be interesting to feed it a 1920x1080p60 signal and see what it did with it. But I'm not holding my breath.

We HTPC users have to do a lot of work to deal with interlaced resolutions, progressive is just so much easier to handle, and uses a lot less CPU too.

Thanks,
Mike

Has anyone gone so far as to contact Sony and let them know the mistake of not giving us 1080p inputs on at least the pc input but even as an overall option?

I sent off an email this morning now that the TV is officially announced and they will have to acknolwedge it one way or another. I'm sure I'll get a canned response about it but I figure it was worth a shot. Maybe everyone should send emails so they actually think its a wanted feature! :D

Crutchfield may have removed the SXRDs from their website, but they didn't take them out of the Crutchfield catalog I got in the mail today.

If anybody is curious about the iris effect, I stumbled onto the perfect way to test it the other day while looking at an A10 in Sears. What was displaying I think was ESPN HD (I don't have HD yet so I'm not sure). It was currently showing something non-hd, or at least 4:3, though. On the side bars were these incredibly hideous gigantic blend thing with a huge HD instead of the normal black or gray bars. However, since it was a smooth blend which never changed with the rest of the picture, the effect of the iris was incredibly obvious.

During normal viewing it was fairly steady because the scene, and therefore the brightness, didn't change very often. It cut to a commercial or something however, where there were fast cuts of varying brightness and you could see the amount of the side bar blend which was visible change quite obviously. Several inches in some cases on a 50 inch set, so clearly the iris was having a large effect on which gray levels were capable of being shown, and which blended into black and were not visible.

In my brief observations the iris seemed to change fast, the scene cuts were not more than a second or two apart, but not instantanaeously. It did seem to ramp up or down to the new brightness smoothly, rather than snap instantly to the new brightness. I will say that, despite the fact that the effect was extremely obvious on the side bars, it was not obvious in the actual image since every time the brightness changed, pretty much the whole image changed.


If you can go by the SXRD specs for the XBRs, the panels already have a 5,000:1 contrast ratio. The dynamic iris ups it to 10,000 to 1. In camera terms, that's only 1 f stop. Not sure how the A10 compares to the SXRDs, but you could very well have a situation with the SXRDs where the contrast ratio without the iris is plenty enough and with the iris, the iris movements would be less obvious. That being said, we're not going to really know much of anything until some of these sets escapes into our hands.

Hey guys,

I'm coming into this thread quite late. I've actually been following the A10 Owner's thread as I planned to buy that set coming up in the next few weeks. Someone mentioned these new SXRD sets, so I came over to take a look.

It seems as if there was a pretty significant announcement today, right? No 1080p like everyone was hoping? Myself, I like the look of the A10 and the black bezel all the way around. And I really like the price of the A10's (~$2100-$2200) but I want to make sure I'm getting the best TV for the money. Are people now having second thoughts about this TV now that it doesn't have the 1080P input? I know the set will be $4000 for the 50" which is $1500 more than the A10 series. What are you guy's thoughts about the difference in price and performance, now that you know the press release info?

Thanks much in advance,
Aaron

PS what is the new LG TV some were talking about? I was really hoping to have a TV for this football season, but again, I'll wait if something cool is right on the horizon. I'm just a little nervious about buying a non-1080p set now, even though I don't exactly 100% know how that will benefit me in the years to come.

Anybody have anymore information on the dynamic iris? I am curious about it.

I was trying to figure out how fast these little motors would have to be to open or close the iris without getting some weird flashing effect. Ideally, you would want the dynamic iris to open or close at a scene transition (from light to dark or vice versa). If it opened or closed after a few frames were displayed after a particular scene transition, you may notice the effect.

From the pictures of the iris mechanism, it looks like it uses a run of the mill DC motor probably similar to the ones used in DVD drives to move the laser pickup. So, drawing an analogy to the motors used in DVD drives (right or wrong) I've found that typical DVD random seek times are >100ms, the iris would probably close or open faster than this though since it would be customized for a 4-step iris. At 1080p 30fps, a scene transition could happen within one frame or 33ms. So, if you could detect a scene transition, one frame ahead of time, you can time the iris movement pretty close. That's cool.

I wonder how they tie in the iris mechanism. Do they tie it to the MPEG decoder or is it to the LCD panel drivers? If it is tied to the MPEG decoder, then it wouldn't work for component, s-video or composite inputs. Like I said, this is just me being curious and rambling.

Anybody worried about these little motors losing strength or going out over time?I thought only DLP's had moving parts, no hdmi 5.1 input, 1080P input :rolleyes: :mad:

I thought only DLP's had moving parts, no hdmi 5.1 input, 1080P input :rolleyes: :mad:

Now that is funny!

Now that is funny!I am just repeating what some of the professional know it alls said before there was any information even out on the SXRP...just a little humor :)

UG-

Do you know the particulars of their warranty (specifically with regards to lamp replacement)? I read the info on their site this morning, but didn't see anything regarding lamps. That's a very nice price, but I'd be interested in a warranty that covers premature lamp failure.

Thanks for the info!

Jason

The Sony Extended Warranty does not include bulb replacement.

If you can go by the SXRD specs for the XBRs, the panels already have a 5,000:1 contrast ratio. The dynamic iris ups it to 10,000 to 1. In camera terms, that's only 1 f stop. Not sure how the A10 compares to the SXRDs, but you could very well have a situation with the SXRDs where the contrast ratio without the iris is plenty enough and with the iris, the iris movements would be less obvious. That being said, we're not going to really know much of anything until some of these sets escapes into our hands.

This is the same basic samsung 1080p pitch. 5000 to 1 panel CR with
up to 10,000 to 1 via the dyanamic iris.

It will be interesting to compare these sets side by side with film based content.

With the release of these sets seemingly imminent...it would be AWESOME if some of the new "contributors to the thread" would at least do a little research or searching (through the thread or elsewhere) before asking all of the questions that have been asked and answered over the last 1800 posts. Use the search function...:p

The Sony Extended Warranty does not include bulb replacement.
Where does it state this? I'd love some reference point...:rolleyes:

Jason (the cynic)

For those of you chomping at the bit for the 70" version of the SXRD, check out PC World article. here's a snippet (although these dates are from this past January - what's up with that?)

Sony's SXRD Projection TV to Take on DLP
New rear-projection technology from Sony to be featured in new HDTV.

Paul Kallender and Martyn Williams, IDG News Service
Friday, September 10, 2004

Sony is taking aim at the high-definition TV (HDTV) market with its new 70-inch Grand WEGA rear-projection TV. The KDS70XBR100--scheduled to ship in January 2005--is the first projection TV to use Sony's Silicon X-tal Reflective Display (SXRD) technology, hitherto used only in the Qualia luxury brand, says Sony.

Oh my...I think a change of underwear is in order! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Now, if I could only wait until January (2005?) and convince the wife that the 70" set is the way to go?!?:eek:

Jason

BTW, did that other "Official SXRD" thread get axed or am I just "missing" it? What a hope! He really thought that he was onto something ( just on something :) ).

Jason

For those of you chomping at the bit for the 70" version of the SXRD, check out PC World article. here's a snippet (although these dates are from this past January - what's up with that?)

Sony's SXRD Projection TV to Take on DLP
New rear-projection technology from Sony to be featured in new HDTV.

Paul Kallender and Martyn Williams, IDG News Service
Friday, September 10, 2004

Sony is taking aim at the high-definition TV (HDTV) market with its new 70-inch Grand WEGA rear-projection TV. The KDS70XBR100--scheduled to ship in January 2005--is the first projection TV to use Sony's Silicon X-tal Reflective Display (SXRD) technology, hitherto used only in the Qualia luxury brand, says Sony.


Welcome to last year. It never did ship in January 2005 as the XBR, instead the Qualia 006. Next January is 2006!!

For those of you chomping at the bit for the 70" version of the SXRD, check out PC World article. here's a snippet (although these dates are from this past January - what's up with that?)

Sony's SXRD Projection TV to Take on DLP
New rear-projection technology from Sony to be featured in new HDTV.

Paul Kallender and Martyn Williams, IDG News Service
Friday, September 10, 2004

Sony is taking aim at the high-definition TV (HDTV) market with its new 70-inch Grand WEGA rear-projection TV. The KDS70XBR100--scheduled to ship in January 2005--is the first projection TV to use Sony's Silicon X-tal Reflective Display (SXRD) technology, hitherto used only in the Qualia luxury brand, says Sony.
70" XBR SXRD = Qualia 006. It was originally supposed to be an XBR display (for $10,000), but Sony decided to make it a Qualia instead. And yes, it was released as promised in January 2005.

BTW, did that other "Official SXRD" thread get axed or am I just "missing" it? What a hope! He really thought that he was onto something ( just on something :) ).

JasonI think it was quietly "withdrawn". :D

For those of you chomping at the bit for the 70" version of the SXRD, check out PC World article. here's a snippet (although these dates are from this past January - what's up with that?)E for effort! Thanks for trying to be more contributor than critic.

E for effort!
Isn't that somewhere between a "D" and an "F"...? Wow....how flattering! :p :D

Jason

Thanks for trying...
Wow, that really makes it "not so bad." Almost like a consolation prize, only crappier! :)

Jason

Where does it state this? I'd love some reference point...:rolleyes:

Jason (the cynic)

I called sony and asked several days ago.

If you can go by the SXRD specs for the XBRs, the panels already have a 5,000:1 contrast ratio. The dynamic iris ups it to 10,000 to 1. In camera terms, that's only 1 f stop.The static or non-dynamic CR will never be as high as the panel CR. For instance, single chip DLPs could be thought of as having CRs way above 10k:1, yet no DLP gets more than 5k:1 on/off CR out the projector. I believe the Sony Qualia 004 panels had 3k:1 on/off CR at the chips, but the projector was closer to 1k:1 with the iris open and 2k:1 with it closed, while its JVC competitor has 5k:1 at the chips at gets about 2400:1 out of the projector. So, my guess is they will have to do something like 5x reduction or so in order to end up with a dynamic on/off CR of 10k:1. Much like the Sony HS51 doing something like a 5x reduction to take 1k:1 on/off CR (or so) to 5k:1 on/off CR (or so).

--Darin

Isn't that somewhere between a "D" and an "F"...? Wow....how flattering! :p :D Wow, that really makes it "not so bad." Almost like a consolation prize, only crappier! :)

JasonI'm not very good at conciliatory complements :p

I happened to be an E student through all 8 years of high school. My guidance counselor recommend I check into the "laborer" field of study. ;)

Re. XBR badge...doesn't that simply stand for X-Box Ready? :D

OUCH!!
Don't let Sony hear you say that. They won't be too happy but Microsoft will love it!! :)

Uninvited guest,
I pre-ordered from Crutchfield. I wonder why they removed it from the website, however....

Did anyone here pre-order through Crutchfield?

Hey Uninvited, I pre-ordered with them about 2 weeks ago. How about you? I fear that when these sets hit the showroom floors, they will be gone so fast, then they will be on back order. I may cancell my order because if you go to post #1643, snatch posted that the CC price will be 10% below msrp. If thats the case i will get mine from CC. Snatch....can you verify??
Snoop

Hey Uninvited, I pre-ordered with them about 2 weeks ago. How about you? I fear that when these sets hit the showroom floors, they will be gone so fast, then they will be on back order. I may cancell my order because if you go to post #1643, snatch posted that the CC price will be 10% below msrp. If thats the case i will get mine from CC. Snatch....can you verify??
SnoopCrutchfield was my fallback plan if I couldn't find it locally. I wondered if Crutchfield was telling their customers anything special about the removal of the listings.

I ordered from a local dealer the day Crutchfield posted the pricing on the website. I was told I'm #1 in line in Tweeter's system on the KDS-R60XBR1. Similar to the deal you mentioned. With sales tax it worked out about the same as Crutchfield. I jumped on the deal for the same reason as you. I've waited long enough and these sets fit my needs. I see people having trouble finding the A10 series and I don't want to get stuck at the back of the line. I wanted to buy local just incase there were any troubles at delivery time plus they had good satisfaction and price guarantees.

Crutchfield was my fallback plan if I couldn't find it locally. I wondered if Crutchfield was telling their customers anything special about the removal of the listings.

I ordered from a local dealer the day Crutchfield posted the pricing on the website. I was told I'm #1 in line in Tweeter's system on the KDS-R60XBR1. Similar to the deal you mentioned. With sales tax it worked out about the same as Crutchfield. I jumped on the deal for the same reason as you. I've waited long enough and these sets fit my needs. I see people having trouble finding the A10 series and I don't want to get stuck at the back of the line. I wanted to buy local just incase there were any troubles at delivery time plus they had good satisfaction and price guarantees.

WOW!! Tweeter said you could get a deal similar to CC? When I called my local Tweeter, he said the price would be msrp, but he said he would price match. The only other stores he can match (in my area anyway) is CC & Audio Video Design as those 2 stores will be the only local stores selling this set. However if another Tweeter store sells the set at a discount (even if it's not in this area,) he will match that stores discounted price. Keep me informed Uninvited. I want to buy local also. If I can purchase the KDS-R60XBR1 + tax + 5 year warranty for $5000, ill be a happy camper.
BTW....Last week Crutchfield did send me a letter thanking me for my purchase & also explaining that these sets aren't expected until the 19th of Sept.
Snoop

Hey Uninvited, I pre-ordered with them about 2 weeks ago. How about you? I fear that when these sets hit the showroom floors, they will be gone so fast, then they will be on back order. I may cancell my order because if you go to post #1643, snatch posted that the CC price will be 10% below msrp. If thats the case i will get mine from CC. Snatch....can you verify??
Snoop

It's in the system at that price right now. Of course, as I mentioned, it's not allowing for pre-orders because Sony hasn't shipped the units yet, but as soon as it does you can get the set for whatever price it happens to be at and wait for it to come in.

The 50" is not in the system yet.

This is the same basic samsung 1080p pitch. 5000 to 1 panel CR with
up to 10,000 to 1 via the dyanamic iris.

It will be interesting to compare these sets side by side with film based content.


My thoughts exactly. The only things we know of at this point is that the Sammy streets for roughly $1,400 less and their speakers are on the bottom and not the side. Unknowns are picture quality, bugs, and bulb cost/life.

The static or non-dynamic CR will never be as high as the panel CR. For instance, single chip DLPs could be thought of as having CRs way above 10k:1, yet no DLP gets more than 5k:1 on/off CR out the projector. I believe the Sony Qualia 004 panels had 3k:1 on/off CR at the chips, but the projector was closer to 1k:1 with the iris open and 2k:1 with it closed, while its JVC competitor has 5k:1 at the chips at gets about 2400:1 out of the projector. So, my guess is they will have to do something like 5x reduction or so in order to end up with a dynamic on/off CR of 10k:1. Much like the Sony HS51 doing something like a 5x reduction to take 1k:1 on/off CR (or so) to 5k:1 on/off CR (or so).

--Darin

Very interesting. I've heard that manufacturers find all kinds of ways to make their specifications sound better than the competitions', :rolleyes: but how do you think the SXRD's contrast ratio and absolute black level compares to some of the better CRTs?

It's in the system at that price right now. Of course, as I mentioned, it's not allowing for pre-orders because Sony hasn't shipped the units yet, but as soon as it does you can get the set for whatever price it happens to be at and wait for it to come in.

The 50" is not in the system yet.

Thank's snatch :D
Snoop

I watched Sin City on the Q006 last night (Grandpa SXRD) and it looked spectacular...considering it is mostly black and white, it is a testament to black level performance and contrast ratio, imho.

I think we know a bit more than that the Sammy streets for less than the Sony's and that their speakers are placed differently, but I can understand your tempered enthusiasm.

It's in the system at that price right now. Of course, as I mentioned, it's not allowing for pre-orders because Sony hasn't shipped the units yet, but as soon as it does you can get the set for whatever price it happens to be at and wait for it to come in.

The 50" is not in the system yet.

I was in Best Buy last nite and to my suprise the manager actually knew about the new SXRD's. He said he expects to have one on the floor within 4 weeks, and maybe a bit sooner. I can't wait to see one in person! Let's hope they put it in a darker area of the store. He was complaining how the idiots at the top want the TV's displayed in brightly lit area...UGH.

I was in Best Buy last nite and to my suprise the manager actually knew about the new SXRD's. He said he expects to have one on the floor within 4 weeks, and maybe a bit sooner. I can't wait to see one in person! Let's hope they put it in a darker area of the store. He was complaining how the idiots at the top want the TV's displayed in brightly lit area...UGH.

That would be great to see it already. The Best Buy near me has the plasma tv's displayed in bright light, but most of the rest of the big screens are in a dark area and it makes them look real good.

are we talking about BB's Magnolia section, or just regular BestBuys ? If the new SXRD's are going to be on regular BB shelves I expect them to look no better than a 480p signal considering the signals that the dopes at the store send them. If their located in the Magnolia section, at least we'll get a decent signal and better way to judge these new sets

Right. And no 1920x1080 resolution support on the PC interface either! Now, it doesn't say that other settings won't work, but it only guarantees the traditional resolutions that LCD panels have supported in the past. It might be interesting to feed it a 1920x1080p60 signal and see what it did with it. But I'm not holding my breath.

We HTPC users have to do a lot of work to deal with interlaced resolutions, progressive is just so much easier to handle, and uses a lot less CPU too.

Thanks,
Mike


Rubish,

I use 1920x1080i from a HTPC without any problems.
The results are WAY better then 720p.

There is no need for a 1080p 60 input.

My cheque book is ready :D

More news..........

Pa. Preproduction Begins This Week
Sony Unveils 0.61" SXRD Chip As 'Volume Driver' for Rear-Projection TVs

NEW STANTON, Pa. -- Sony unveiled a 0.61" SXRD microdisplay chip to be the heart of new XBR 50W ($3,999) and 60W ($5,999) rear projection TVs and the "volume driver" for SXRD, TV Product Planning Gen. Mgr. Shigeo Saito told us after a presentation Tues. at the company's TV assembly plant here.

The 0.61" device maintains the same 1,920x1080p resolution as the 0.78" SXRD microdisplay chip built into the current Qualia 006 70W rear projection TV ($13,000) -- but increases the contrast ratio to 5,000:1 from 3,000:1 and reflectivity to 74% from 65%. The new sets also add an automatic iris feature that continuously monitors incoming signals and makes adjustments such as closing down the iris during dark scenes to enhance apparent black level.

The new display device -- smaller than the Texas Instruments 0.82" DLP chip that also delivers 1080p resolution -- started in volume production at Sony's Kumamoto, Japan, facility this year using the same 8" wafers and 0.35"-micron process as the 0.78". At the same time, Sony shrank the pixel pitch for the 0.61" SXRD to 7 micrometers from 9 micrometers, company officials said. The Kumamoto factory, which uses wafers produced at Sony's Kokudu, Japan, facility, will by year-end have annual capacity for 3 million SXRD displays
that can be assembled into one million sets, Saito said. The 50W and 60W sets will be assembled here using panels imported from Japan.

The new SXRD-based 50W and 60W sets have CableCARD slots, 2 HDMI inputs, an RGB PC input and a Memory Stick slot, but are shorn of 1080p inputs until content protection issues are resolved, TV Mktg. VP Greg Gudorf said. Despite the introduction of new lower-priced SXRD sets, Sony has no immediate plans to drop the retail for either the Qualia 70W SXRD rear projection TV or the front projector ($30,000). Whether the 0.61" will eventually finds its way into front projectors hasn't been finalized, company officials said. The 0.61" will supplement, not replace, the 0.78" display, with the larger size reserved for sets that require greater brightness, Saito said.

The 50W and 60W sets use a 120 w UHP lamp, while the 70W has a 200 w model, company officials said. With the introduction of an 0.61" SXRD that enables the technology to reach lower prices, Sony will eventually be faced with a new competitor to its own LCD-based rear projection TVs -- sales of which enabled it to grab a 47% share of a 1.7 to 1.8 million unit market for microdisplay TVs Oct.-July, Gudorf said citing NPD figures. While the price gap currently for 50W sets is about $1,500, that's likely to shrink as SXRD production increases, company officials said.

The ultimate goal of SXRD "will be determined by what we want to do with the picture quality and what will be the price range and feature sets," Saito said. "All the variables will help determine whether we choose to introduce LCD or SXRD sets." Saito declined to comment on whether Sony planned to introduce LCD microdisplays with 1080p resolution. It currently produces a 0.63" LCD microdisplay device with 720p resolution. Gudorf
also declined to comment on whether there were plans for a smaller SXRD-based TV, although he conceded that 42W was an "interesting" screen size.

Sony has installed 5 SXRD assembly lines at the New Stanton factory, each with maximum capacity of 500 units per day, Production Mgr. Michael Straub said. The SXRD lines cover 40,000-sq.-ft. of former warehouse space within the plant as well a former assembly area for CRT-based rear projection TVs. Production of CRT rear projection TVs ended at New Stanton midsummer and has been moved to Sony facilities in Mexico, Straub said.

Each of the SXRD sets can be assembled in about an hour along a line staffed by 75 workers, he said. The 70W rear projection model will continue to be assembled in Japan and exported to the U.S. largely because of the smaller volumes required, Straub said. About 10 units each of 50W and 60W sets were assembled as engineering samples at New Stanton facility during the past week. Preproduction is scheduled to begin Fri. as the factory moves toward volume manufacturing in Sept., Straub said. The manufacturing capacity for SXRD sets is expected
to be less than the 500 units a day at the start, gradually growing to larger volumes, Straub said.

SXRD and LCD technologies will become the focal points of Sony's TV strategy as it continues reducing its emphasis on plasma, Sony executives said. The company will field 42W and 50W plasma TV monitors for the custom market based on "market demand," Gudorf said. It’s also weighing introduction of LCD TVs that use "enhanced backlight" technology, he said. In Japan, Sony introduced 40W and 46W Qualia LCD TVs using LEDs
supplied by Lumileds. Gudorf declined to comment on whether there were similar plans for the U.S. market, saying only that Sony would make new introductions at next month's CEDIA Expo. -- Mark Seavy

Interesting that the larger chip will be used for larger sets...also interesting that they have 10 ea. of the 50" and 60" sets...I sure hope they are sending these bad boys out to the professional reviewers!!!

Rubish,

I use 1920x1080i from a HTPC without any problems.
The results are WAY better then 720p.

There is no need for a 1080p 60 input.

My cheque book is ready :D

Unfortunately the manual indicates that 1280x1024 is the highest resolution that is compatible via PC input - or 1280 by 768 for widescreen PC output, ie no horizontal resolution support greater than 1280 via PC input.

Thanks bum944! Nice find.

More news..........

Pa. Preproduction Begins This Week
Sony Unveils 0.61" SXRD Chip As 'Volume Driver' for Rear-Projection TVs

NEW STANTON, Pa. -- Sony unveiled a 0.61" SXRD microdisplay chip to be the heart of new XBR 50W ($3,999) and 60W ($5,999) rear projection TVs and the "volume driver" for SXRD, TV Product Planning Gen. Mgr. Shigeo Saito told us after a presentation Tues. at the company's TV assembly plant here.

-- Mark Seavy

Did you cut and paste this article? Did no one catch the price of the 60"? $5999. This is 1000 more than the Crutchfield price. I hope the article is a typo or just a plain mistake. I don't want to pay 6K + $500 for the stand!

Did you catch this:

The new SXRD-based 50W and 60W sets have CableCARD slots, 2 HDMI inputs, an RGB PC input and a Memory Stick slot, but are shorn of 1080p inputs until content protection issues are resolved, TV Mktg. VP Greg Gudorf said.

I knew I smelled a rat here. It's too easy to provide native reolsution inputs for these sets. It's the $&^*)(! MPAA at work again. WHat a bunch of nonesense. But I suspect this is the reason why noone is producing sets with 1080p inputs, and maybe why we heard rumours about certain sets supporting 1080p but none delivering them. I would suspect this may also dash our dreams for a LG set with 1080p inputs as well.

Thanks,
Mike

More news..........

SXRD and LCD technologies will become the focal points of Sony's TV strategy as it continues reducing its emphasis on plasma, Sony executives said. The company will field 42W and 50W plasma TV monitors for the custom market based on "market demand," Gudorf said. It’s also weighing introduction of LCD TVs that use "enhanced backlight" technology, he said. In Japan, Sony introduced 40W and 46W Qualia LCD TVs using LEDs supplied by Lumileds. Gudorf declined to comment on whether there were similar plans for the U.S. market, saying only that Sony would make new introductions at next month's CEDIA Expo. -- Mark Seavy


Looking forward to CEDIA next month

I watched Sin City on the Q006 last night (Grandpa SXRD) and it looked spectacular...considering it is mostly black and white, it is a testament to black level performance and contrast ratio, imho.

I think we know a bit more than that the Sammy streets for less than the Sony's and that their speakers are placed differently, but I can understand your tempered enthusiasm.

Watched it on my Sammy last night - simply AMAZING - could see every shadow
detail - loved the photography...

Just noticed Crutchfield has Published both SXRD's back on the Website Now.

How about 10% off? I bet they could get a flood of orders with a 10% discount which would be enough the for extended warranty coverage. Hopefully they won't do like Qualia and sell totally at MSRP.

The price of the 60" has not changed MSRP $4999 - I think that was a typo in that Press Notice.:D

Did no one catch the price of the 60"? $5999.
:eek: :eek: :eek: (That's a triple Eek!) Holy crap, I hope that's a typo.

Jason

are we talking about BB's Magnolia section, or just regular BestBuys ? If the new SXRD's are going to be on regular BB shelves I expect them to look no better than a 480p signal considering the signals that the dopes at the store send them. If their located in the Magnolia section, at least we'll get a decent signal and better way to judge these new sets

This was at a regular BB, but the store I go to appears to be sending real HD signals to the TV's. It was obvious on a visit to Sears that they were not using a real quality HD signal.

5999 is a typo. It's 4999 msrp.

If anybody is curious about the iris effect, I stumbled onto the perfect way to test it the other day while looking at an A10 in Sears. What was displaying I think was ESPN HD (I don't have HD yet so I'm not sure). It was currently showing something non-hd, or at least 4:3, though. On the side bars were these incredibly hideous gigantic blend thing with a huge HD instead of the normal black or gray bars. However, since it was a smooth blend which never changed with the rest of the picture, the effect of the iris was incredibly obvious.

During normal viewing it was fairly steady because the scene, and therefore the brightness, didn't change very often. It cut to a commercial or something however, where there were fast cuts of varying brightness and you could see the amount of the side bar blend which was visible change quite obviously. Several inches in some cases on a 50 inch set, so clearly the iris was having a large effect on which gray levels were capable of being shown, and which blended into black and were not visible.

In my brief observations the iris seemed to change fast, the scene cuts were not more than a second or two apart, but not instantanaeously. It did seem to ramp up or down to the new brightness smoothly, rather than snap instantly to the new brightness. I will say that, despite the fact that the effect was extremely obvious on the side bars, it was not obvious in the actual image since every time the brightness changed, pretty much the whole image changed.

I haven't been keeping up on the A10 threads, but I have seen things described there that were mis-attributed to the dynamic iris. I am house-sitting for my parents this week and I was watching some ESPN-HD on their WF655 Sony. On this TV, with no iris, I saw the exact same effect described above. I don't know what causes it, but it's not the iris.

Just wondering....

How will Sony's new sets compare to JVC's DLIA. I understand that it's the same type of technology...or will Sony do it better?

The press release says they will have 2 hdmi jacks but the manual only shows one.

This is the same basic samsung 1080p pitch. 5000 to 1 panel CR with
up to 10,000 to 1 via the dyanamic iris.

It will be interesting to compare these sets side by side with film based content.

Does the Samsung have a dynamic iris? I remember hearing the Mits did, but I never heard anything about one on the Sammy.

I knew I smelled a rat here. It's too easy to provide native reolsution inputs for these sets. It's the $&^*)(! MPAA at work again. WHat a bunch of nonesense. But I suspect this is the reason why noone is producing sets with 1080p inputs, and maybe why we heard rumours about certain sets supporting 1080p but none delivering them. I would suspect this may also dash our dreams for a LG set with 1080p inputs as well.
Does anyone know what specific issue that is which stops manufacturers from offering 1080p inputs? I mean HDCP does work for 1080p, does it not? So where is the problem?

[QUOTE=newz54]The press release says they will have 2 hdmi jacks but the manual only shows one.[/QUOTE

The manual shows 2 but the specs page on Sony Style shows only 1 which I think is a misprint as there are several other items on the site]wrong also.
Roy

Did you catch this:



I knew I smelled a rat here. It's too easy to provide native reolsution inputs for these sets. It's the $&^*)(! MPAA at work again. WHat a bunch of nonesense. But I suspect this is the reason why noone is producing sets with 1080p inputs, and maybe why we heard rumours about certain sets supporting 1080p but none delivering them. I would suspect this may also dash our dreams for a LG set with 1080p inputs as well.

Thanks,
Mike

Yep I caught that (anything about 1080p inputs jumps out at me). It's good to finally hear someone at one of these companies offer some reason why these sets don't have 1080p inputs. But I'm not sure I really buy this explanation. Doesn't Sony offer some very expensive 1080p input upgrade for their Qualia 004 projector? Why could they offer it on the 004 but not these RPTVs? Also, it doesn't explain the lack of 1080p on the SXRD's VGA input. I know there are other TVs that have 1080p VGA inputs.

The press release says they will have 2 hdmi jacks but the manual only shows one.Look closer.

Did you catch this:



I knew I smelled a rat here. It's too easy to provide native reolsution inputs for these sets. It's the $&^*)(! MPAA at work again. WHat a bunch of nonesense. But I suspect this is the reason why noone is producing sets with 1080p inputs, and maybe why we heard rumours about certain sets supporting 1080p but none delivering them. I would suspect this may also dash our dreams for a LG set with 1080p inputs as well.

Thanks,
Mike

I believe this TV has 3 firewire inputs and hopefully these will accept a 1080P signal. The Mitsubishi 1080P DLP's will also have firewire input that accepts a 1080P signal.

I suspect this is the reason why noone is producing sets with 1080p inputs.

Hey Mike,

What's the price for a 50" Noone? Sorry. I knew some smarta$$ would do it...figured it might as well be me. I share your frustration with this whole copyright mess and its effect on AV products.

Does the 50" Noone have ears? :D

Unfortunately the manual indicates that 1280x1024 is the highest resolution that is compatible via PC input - or 1280 by 768 for widescreen PC output, ie no horizontal resolution support greater than 1280 via PC input.

Yes, but who cares (granted the limitation doesn't make much sense :D) when you have HDMI inputs that will accept 1080i. On my old Samsung DLP, I have a VGA connector but yet I use the DVI port to connect the HTPC.

But if Sony was smart they would of had the speakers removable and that would make people like you who like the side speakers and people who don't happy...many of us don't even use the TV's speakers...so why not give the option of removing them...or at least put them on the bottom...must be a cost thing since they already had the molds. :(

And, again, 95% of people use the TVs built in speakers. Seriously. Honestly. Truly.

And, again, 95% of people use the TVs built in speakers. Seriously. Honestly. Truly.

For the people who will use the tv built-in speakers, these ear speakers will give the best separation if the people are seated within the confines of the screen. Thats probably what they were trying to do when they designed these, in addition to making us Star Trekkie people happy with the space-age looks. :)

I've said this before, I like the look of the set, with the speakers...I even like the gap. BUT, I think we can all concede that REMOVABLE would definitely have been the way to go. If I were a wagering man, I would bet that the next generation will have removable speakers...if not for anything but to stop all the whining :D

Could someone explain what the line about "shorn of 1080p outputs" means? I thought HDMI and component were both capable of showing 1080p, wasn't aware there would be any distinction?

Since were all so hungry for snippits of KDS-R50/60XBR1 info here is a link to the quick setup guide pdf: Linky (http://www.docs.sony.com/release//KDSR50-60XBR1_QS.pdf)

... in addition to making us Star Trekkie people happy with the space-age looks. :)


Maybe, as bendover is thinking, the “Next Generation” model will have “cloaked” ears.

Did you catch this:



I knew I smelled a rat here. It's too easy to provide native reolsution inputs for these sets. It's the $&^*)(! MPAA at work again. WHat a bunch of nonesense. But I suspect this is the reason why noone is producing sets with 1080p inputs, and maybe why we heard rumours about certain sets supporting 1080p but none delivering them. I would suspect this may also dash our dreams for a LG set with 1080p inputs as well.

Thanks,
Mike

those whiny weasles at the MPAA are at it again. What you they have to be worried about with 1080p inputs ? From what I've read the new content protection on next gen HD-DVD/bluray will need an incredibly powerful cpu in order to play them, so it will be very hard to duplicate them. Bluray is building in the capabililty to make a maximum of only 3 copies. 1080p takes a LOT of bandwidth, so why is the MPAA so paranoid ?

Did you cut and paste this article? Did no one catch the price of the 60"? $5999. This is 1000 more than the Crutchfield price. I hope the article is a typo or just a plain mistake. I don't want to pay 6K + $500 for the stand!


Saw that too. Hopefully it was a misprint.

First thing that popped into my mind was " what was it that Samsung wanted for that 67" 1080p set, something like $3,600. :rolleyes:

I haven't been keeping up on the A10 threads, but I have seen things described there that were mis-attributed to the dynamic iris. I am house-sitting for my parents this week and I was watching some ESPN-HD on their WF655 Sony. On this TV, with no iris, I saw the exact same effect described above. I don't know what causes it, but it's not the iris.

On all the other TVs there it was rock solid. I really think it was the iris. It could also be caused by some black expansion processing or something if the tv has that. Is there anything like that on the WF655? It definitely was not the signal, as no other tv's exhibited this effect. It wasn't subtle either, it was extremely obvious when the scenes were changing brightness often.

Just wondering....

How will Sony's new sets compare to JVC's DLIA. I understand that it's the same type of technology...or will Sony do it better?

Sony had better do it better!! Those JVC's are not even competitive against the Grand Wega's, and DLP's in my opinion.

I understand RPTV (CRT), DLP, RPTV (LCD), can someone explain the technology for SXRD? How different is it then DLP or CRT based RPTV? Any convengence issues? I have a 65hx81 toshiba that has served me well, but time to upgrade. My biggest complaint with this tv was convergence.

Thanks,

Yep I caught that (anything about 1080p inputs jumps out at me). It's good to finally hear someone at one of these companies offer some reason why these sets don't have 1080p inputs. But I'm not sure I really buy this explanation. Doesn't Sony offer some very expensive 1080p input upgrade for their Qualia 004 projector? Why could they offer it on the 004 but not these RPTVs? Also, it doesn't explain the lack of 1080p on the SXRD's VGA input. I know there are other TVs that have 1080p VGA inputs.

That's laughable logic on their part if this is really what the reason is. I don't buy _that_ explanation.

It's simple - people will pirate whatever is available. Do they actually think people are like "Sweet, as soon as 1080p sources are available I'm going to pirate stuff! But if it isn't, I won't!". No.

Sony had better do it better!! Those JVC's are not even competitive against the Grand Wega's, and DLP's in my opinion.


I think he's referring to the upcoming 1080p JVC DILA's that are (hopefully) due out shortly. Someone saw them demo'd at CES (gazelle if I'm not mistaken), and said that (at least the models on display) were extremely impressive. I hope so because I'm not a huge fan of the current version. With a 70" model about to drop, if it is anywhere near the SXRD 60" (not to mention the Qualia 006) in PQ, it's going to be a toss-up between buying the 70" JVC, waiting for a non-Qualia 70" SXRD, or robbing a bank to fund a 1080p plasma (LG 71", Panny 65" or a Fujitsu 63").

Removable Dumbo's would be nice, but I would have rejected the idea too if it meant the MSRP would go to $5199 or any other number over $4999 for that matter.

I understand RPTV (CRT), DLP, RPTV (LCD), can someone explain the technology for SXRD? How different is it then DLP or CRT based RPTV? Any convengence issues? I have a 65hx81 toshiba that has served me well, but time to upgrade. My biggest complaint with this tv was convergence.

Thanks,

It is Sony's version of the LCOS (liquid crystal on silicone) techology. JVC DILA is JVC's version, Canon's version is LCOS. Light is reflected off of Liquid Crystal panels, instead of passing thru LCD panels, which results in a Brighter display. The Sony sets I've seen were great and last years Qualia (70" 13K) was crowned the best TV in the world by several sources. The JVC's are available in 52" and the 1080P version may be available in 56"

Yes, but who cares (granted the limitation doesn't make much sense :D) when you have HDMI inputs that will accept 1080i. On my old Samsung DLP, I have a VGA connector but yet I use the DVI port to connect the HTPC.

I thought the posts I were responding to were specifically referencing the PC Input and the ease of setting up interlaced modes to 1080i.

There are a number of PC-specific image adjustment options that are only available when using the PC Input. Are these only necessary for analog PC input, or will using digital input for the PC require some relative compromise and/or compensatory tweaking on the PC side?

So much for my idea of contacting Sony to get the 1080p input question resolved. Twice now the CS person has completly ignored my question and instead retyped the specs from the manual. Both times my email was simple, 'Why is there no 1080p input on a 1080p tv' and each response was typical canned crap ignoring my question. Maybe I'll just keep responding to their email until they blacklist me. :D

On all the other TVs there it was rock solid. I really think it was the iris. It could also be caused by some black expansion processing or something if the tv has that. Is there anything like that on the WF655? It definitely was not the signal, as no other tv's exhibited this effect. It wasn't subtle either, it was extremely obvious when the scenes were changing brightness often.

The WF doesn't have any special black-level processing like the black corrector or gamma adjustments on the XS. I suppose it could be something unique to Sony models, but I dunno. If I hadn't read your original post, I wouldn't have even been looking at the sidebars to notice, but since I did, it was pretty obvious on the WF too.

That's laughable logic on their part if this is really what the reason is. I don't buy _that_ explanation.

It's simple - people will pirate whatever is available. Do they actually think people are like "Sweet, as soon as 1080p sources are available I'm going to pirate stuff! But if it isn't, I won't!". No.

It also flies in the face of whatever logic is compelling them to include 1080p output on the PS3.

By BJentle

It could also be caused by some black expansion processing or something if the tv has that.

You mean a Barry White CD?

And so it was that TV Tyro was banned from the AVS boards, never to post his jocular OT comments (see his hilarious first impressions of the SXRD in post 1818...said TV critic Tom Shales of the Washington Post and fellow thread members: "zzzzzzzzzzzzz") ever again.

Does the Samsung have a dynamic iris? I remember hearing the Mits did, but I never heard anything about one on the Sammy.


Yes. The Samsung has a Dynamic Iris.

Just wondering....

How will Sony's new sets compare to JVC's DLIA. I understand that it's the same type of technology...or will Sony do it better?

Both SXRD and D-ILA are LCOS but JVC hasn't been able to deliver the same
quality as Sony.

Check out the following hot off the press Widesreen review of the new $40,000
Faroudja DILA1080p FP where the measured CR is less than one tenth
the CR of the 720p DLP HD2+ FPs: http://www.widescreen.com/wsr_attractions.php

Some people like the 1080p RP sets at CES but then again some people like the
720p sets too :-) No one has seen a production set yet ( the set at CES was a
protoype ) and the content being displayed was not film with dark scenes
but bright nature scenes so we don't how the BL and CR was even on the
prototype 1080p JCD D-ILAs.

Short answer: I pesonally do not believe they will be anything like the
Sony SXRDs except for perhaps daytime HD sports viewing where CR and BL
are not as important...

I think everyone needs to chill with the 1080p input stuff. It's all speculation at this point. Now if I were to speculate, I bet that the firewire, aka IEEE 1394, aka i.Link ports will accept 1080p input. I further speculate that Blu-Ray players will certainly have firewire (as Sony is very big on i.Link) and that the PS3 will have an i.Link port as well. I know a lot of people here are hell-bent on DVI and HDMI, but firewire is a much more sophisticated and robust interface than HDMI / DVI. Multiple devices can be daisy-chained off the same bus, for one. Yes, if the TV does not accept 1080p/60 via the VGA port that may create a conundrum for HTPC users. Not accepting 1080p/60 via component, or DVI/HDMI does not mean that the TV will not accept 1080p at all. It's too early to gripe when the product hasn't even been seen by anyone yet. That's just my opinion, but I seriously think some of you need to relax.

The manual for the 50" SXRD states plainly on page 100 that:

"If a signal other than in the above chart is input, it may not be displayed properly or may not be displayed as you set."

Now what about that sentence definitely says that this set will not accept 1080p/60 via the VGA port? Absolutely nothing. And once again if I had to speculate, I would say that the set was simply never tested with a higher resolution. The resolutions in the manual are only those which they guarantee will function. It's quite possible they were unable to test it at those resolutions in time for the manual to be produced. If, at release, the sets don't accept ANY 1080p inputs, then it will be the right time to complain. This is why you should wait to see the TV for yourself before you pre-order it. It's often better to be a settler than a pioneer.

It also flies in the face of whatever logic is compelling them to include 1080p output on the PS3.I wouldn't be surprised to find when I plug in a PS3 (or other 1080p compliant Blu-Ray (http://www.blu-raydisc.com/) player) into the iLink (Firewire) IEEE-1394 port of the KDS-R60XBR1 it is possible to stream 1080p video to it. I have not seen and specifications to say it isn't possible. Mitsubishi is using a unique system to access 1080p video data on a remote device via IEEE-1394. We were discussing it here: Link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6044746&&#post6044746)

Does anyone have any info about what can or can't be processed through IEEE-1394 on the Sony?

I think everyone needs to chill with the 1080p input stuff. It's all speculation at this point. Now if I were to speculate, I bet that the firewire, aka IEEE 1394, aka i.Link ports will accept 1080p input. I further speculate that Blu-Ray players will certainly have firewire (as Sony is very big on i.Link) and that the PS3 will have an i.Link port as well.That's a spooky coincidence :D

I am excited to death! I don't know how in the world I am going to be able to wait until October!! ;)

I wouldn't be surprised to find when I plug in a PS3 (or other 1080p compliant Blu-Ray (http://www.blu-raydisc.com/) player) into the iLink (Firewire) IEEE-1394 port of the KDS-R60XBR1 it is possible to stream 1080p video to it. I have not seen and specifications to say it isn't possible. Mitsubishi is using a unique system to access 1080p video data on a remote device via IEEE-1394. We were discussing it here: Link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6044746&&#post6044746)

Does anyone have any info about what can or can't be processed through IEEE-1394 on the Sony?

Unlikely. 1920x1080x60x24 = 3Gbit/s. Unless their 1394 implementation is a few generations ahead, you're not getting 1080p60 through firewire.

Ever heard of compression? It could easily accept an MPEG4 stream through the firewire port which, coincidentally, is exactly how the data will be stored on Blu-Ray and HD-DVD disks. We're talking about digital device-to-device streaming here. You can't think of everything in an analog video mindset. TVs are converging with computers, there is no conversion required. You just plug it in and go. You can already plug camcorders into TVs with firewire ports and play back MPEG2 recordings which are stored on the cam. Do you think that those recordings are converted into analog and then sent via firewire? No. They are streamed to the TV in their native, compressed format. The TV is able to open that stream and display it on the screen, much in the same way that a DVD player can open files that are stored on static media today.

HDMI/DVI is not any better, because in order to get that "uncompressed" signal to pass through it, the HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player will still have to decode the original MPEG4 file from the disk. The media will be compressed somewhere in the transmission path.

Sure, get your video card or video scaler/deinterlacer to compress its output to MPEG2. I don't think people who are interested in 1080p input are talking about compressed data.

Ever heard of compression?Actually I've posted this here before, but nobody listens to little old me :(

The New Industry Standard
Already ratified as part of the MPEG-4 standard — MPEG-4 Part 10 — and the ITU-T’s latest video-conferencing standard, H.264 is now mandatory for the HD-DVD and Blu-ray specifications (the two formats for high-definition DVDs) and ratified in the latest versions of the DVB (Digital Video Broadcasters) and 3GPP (3rd Generation Partnership Project) standards. Numerous broadcast, cable, videoconferencing and consumer electronics companies consider H.264 the video codec of choice for their new products and services. This adoption by a wide variety of open standards means that any company in the world can create devices — mobile phones, set-top boxes, DVD players and more — that will work seamlessly with QuickTime 7.
http://www.apple.com/quicktime/technologies/h264/

You can download some H.264 compressed 1080p trailers here to see the quality for yourself. It's quite nice!

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/hdgallery/

I didn't say MPEG2, for one, I said MPEG4. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD movies will come in this format on the disk! HD movies compressed with MPEG4 will be the standard for a number of years. Furthermore, whether or not the set accepts 1080p/60 via the VGA input is still TBD. To come to any other conclusion at this point is premature. If you're using a deinterlacer or scaler you're already dealing in a format that is not native 1080p/60 anyway, so what is the deal? Am I missing something.

Edit - good call, uninvited guest. I think some people think compression and "loss of quality" are synonymous.

I knew I smelled a rat here. It's too easy to provide native reolsution inputs for these sets. It's the $&^*)(! MPAA at work again. WHat a bunch of nonesense. But I suspect this is the reason why noone is producing sets with 1080p inputs, and maybe why we heard rumours about certain sets supporting 1080p but none delivering them. I would suspect this may also dash our dreams for a LG set with 1080p inputs as well.

Thanks,
Mike


It also brings up great points about Playstation and HD DVD or Blu Ray....will any of these formats have 1080p outputs if copy protection issues haven't been figured out yet?! Sheesh....thank you MPAA is right! :mad:

I think everyone needs to chill with the 1080p input stuff. It's all speculation at this point. Now if I were to speculate, I bet that the firewire, aka IEEE 1394, aka i.Link ports will accept 1080p input. I further speculate that Blu-Ray players will certainly have firewire (as Sony is very big on i.Link) and that the PS3 will have an i.Link port as well.

Firewire is for an MPEG compressed signal, uncompressed in the tv, correct? There is no way this can be used for a game console. The data would have to be rendered uncompressed, and then compressed and sent over firewire. By the time this had been done, processing would have delayed the signal to the point that the game is unplayable. Not to mention, considering it takes a pretty high end pc to even decompress 1080p on the fly, even with the ps3, I think compression on the fly is out of the question unless it contains dedicated hardware. It could definitely be used to output Blu-ray movies though, but that won't help people that want to play 1080p games (if there are any).

Now what about that sentence definitely says that this set will not accept 1080p/60 via the VGA port? Absolutely nothing. And once again if I had to speculate, I would say that the set was simply never tested with a higher resolution. The resolutions in the manual are only those which they guarantee will function.

This is my hope. What they put in the manual are standard PC resolutions that every graphics card supports by default. I would think that they would want to avoid techsupport calls of the type "Your manual says the tv supports such and such a resolution, but my computer doesn't have that. What do I do?" since this is not so easy a problem given the millions of possible hardware and driver cobminations and the average tech savvyness of the users. With the manual worded the way it is, they can say "I'm sorry, only the listed resolutions are supported".

I didn't say MPEG2, for one, I said MPEG4. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD movies will come in this format on the disk! HD movies compressed with MPEG4 will be the standard for a number of years.

I doubt these sets have a MPEG4 decoder.

Furthermore, whether or not the set accepts 1080p/60 via the VGA input is still TBD. To come to any other conclusion at this point is premature. If you're using a deinterlacer or scaler you're already dealing in a format that is not native 1080p/60 anyway, so what is the deal? Am I missing something.

A nice external deinterlacer/scaler probably performs better than the built-in one.

It also brings up great points about Playstation and HD DVD or Blu Ray....will any of these formats have 1080p outputs if copy protection issues haven't been figured out yet?! Sheesh....thank you MPAA is right! :mad:

Well, certainly for the game consoles at least, there is no need to support any copy protection scheme. The data from the games does not need to be protected in any way. When playing Blu Ray through the console it can output 1080i which can be deinterlaced back to 1080p. I'm not sure it's nailed down whether this is what all Blu Ray players will do, or if any will output 1080p, but if they are all 1080i, the PS3 will probably only output 1080i when playing Blu Ray disks anyway. If any are 1080p, the PS3 can use whatever those players are using for copy protection, which I can't believe is going to be anything other than HDCP. It's too late to start putting anything else into TVs for the Blu Ray launch.

I think I agree with what others have already said. Copy protection is a bogus excuse. There is no way they are going to have a new copy protection scheme to the TV when they barely got HDCP accepted and are still going to face enough grief from people who's TVs won't be compatible with HD-DVD/Blu-Ray. If they broke it again now, no one would have a tv that would work.

Rubish,

I use 1920x1080i from a HTPC without any problems.
The results are WAY better then 720p.

There is no need for a 1080p 60 input.

My cheque book is ready :D

If you're feeding the set 1080i from your PC and letting the deinterlacer reassemble the frames, you're getting 1080p30 effectively. I've used my LCD monitor at 30Hz, 33Hz, and 48Hz and I can tell you 30 and 33 are unbearable. Doing normal desktop stuff, I find myself constantly overshooting the target with my mouse at 30/33Hz.

--wilson

I'm new to this, but it seems that 1080p is the Holy Grail of HDTV because it displays every pixel of a deinterlaced 1080i input. No scaling is needed as with a 720p display. It is intuitive that this gives 1:1 mapping of the input signal onto the screen, so no resolution is lost? Right?

But what about overscan? The screen displays 1920 x 1080 pixels, but due to overscan the image is actually scaled 3-5% larger than that! So if the TV is doing a little bit of scaling anyway, 1080p is kind of arbitrary. Why not 1160p or 1000p?

If overscan is 3% vertically and horizontally, then the ideal microchip resolution should be 1864 x 1048 . This way what we actually see on the screen is mapped at 1:1.

Just curious. I know that, practically speaking, no one could tell such small differences, but since so much of the PQ discussion here is theoretical, I thought I would throw this out.

Sony had better do it better!! Those JVC's are not even competitive against the Grand Wega's, and DLP's in my opinion.

Alan,

Thanks for the reply, but I'm not trying to start anything against the JVC sets. There are many who like them...

My point is that I would expect a $5K Sony set to be closer in performance to the JVC sets then to the 10K plus Qualia 006 set.

Sony will cut corners, so I'm not going to get too excited until I see one. Even then, I'll remain calm...

Besides, every year brings the latest and greatest...Isn't it wonderful that the manufacturers basically tell you that what you bought last year can't hold a candle to what they are putting out this year....

So guys, is it confirmed that these accept a 1080p signal? I know many thought they "had too" as PS3 will output 1080p but is even that confirmed?

Sony will cut corners, so I'm not going to get too excited until I see one. Even then, I'll remain calm...

It's obvious they cut corners by installing an SXRD into an XS shell system. While many don't like that shell and dumbo ears they must compete with a deluge of 1080P sets arriving during the next 6 months. Sony knows they have a large consumer public that could not budget the Qualia but they know full well $4-$5K is a realistic threshold for folks that have desired the Q006 for 6 months.

Sony has a future riding on SXRD and it is expected to set the standard for consumer TV's. They are not about to cut corners on the electronics since the R&D has been subsidized already via Qualia. Their profit margins have dwindled to a meager projected $285 Million whereas Samsung profits last year and this will exceed 10 Billion each year. One of the reasons they have partnered with Samsung in the sharing of 24,000 patents and manufacturer of new LCD's FP jointly in Korea. Both have partnered to counteract China and Matsushita and LG. Sharp after all is the number one Selling TV in Asia not Sony as many Americans believe.

My Point is that Sony just has to make this work and they are desperate enough to have partnered with S. Korean Corp (for folks that may know some of the history of the region that is rare) and appointed an American as the new CEO. Yes, they'll cut corners on the cosmetics as they know they have a diamond under that shell and besides next fall they can release version two with a new designed case to keep the sales fresh and a tweak here and there.
Cut Corners on miscellaneous but never on the SXRD which they've spent years in R&D and staked their future on. Just makes sense to me. Just and opinion so please accept it as that. Thanks :D

It's obvious they cut corners by installing an SXRD into an XS shell system. While many don't like that shell and dumbo ears they must compete with a deluge of 1080P sets arriving during the next 6 months. Sony knows they have a large consumer public that could not budget the Qualia but they know full well $4-$5K is a realistic threshold for folks that have desired the Q006 for 6 months.

Sony has a future riding on SXRD and it is expected to set the standard for consumer TV's. They are not about to cut corners on the electronics since the R&D has been subsidized already via Qualia. Their profit margins have dwindled to a meager projected $285 Million whereas Samsung profits last year and this will exceed 10 Billion each year. One of the reasons they have partnered with Samsung in the sharing of 24,000 patents and manufacturer of new LCD's FP jointly in Korea. Both have partnered to counteract China and Matsushita and LG. Sharp after all is the number one Selling TV in Asia not Sony as many Americans believe. My Point is that Sony just has to make this work and they are desperate enough to have partnered with S. Korean and appointed an American as the new CEO. Yes, they'll cut corners on the cosmetics as they know they have a diamond under that shell and besides next fall they can release version two with a new designed case to keep the sales fresh and a tweak here and there.

Cut Corners on miscellaneous but never on the SXRD which they've spent years in R&D and staked their future on. Just makes sense to me. Just and opinion so please accept it as that. Thanks :D

westa - good post.

But even if SXRD is successful (ie they take a nice market share from DLP in the RPTV market) - will it be enough for Sony to regain the crown??

Isn't the real future in flat panels (ie LCD, plasma, SED, maybe even OLED), which folks can hang on the wall, not in bulky (admittedly less bulky, but still bulky compared to flat panels), RP microdisplays?

Isn't the real future in flat panels (ie LCD, plasma, SED, maybe even OLED), which folks can hang on the wall, not in bulky (admittedly less bulky, but still bulky compared to flat panels), RP microdisplays?
I get your point - I think I saw a trade journal Today announce that Plasma has now outsold RPTV this year. I truly feel both Samsung and Sony will have mutual benefits as Samsung's Plasma's have dramatically improved that are just now being released and Samsung has been working on a 57" LCD for nearly 2 years. Sony may leave Plasma but it doesn't mean they aren't sharing their research with Samsung to make them a better plasma or LCD. I think Samsung is the largest LCD FP producer in the world. (which includes PC's, Cell Phone and other products)

Sony must have the toughest challenge to constantly stay on top but it's believed they missed the boat and ignored Flat Panel area, yes they have sets but they rebadge others components in those areas they do not have full control over that part of the company and their production costs are much higher than their counterparts outside Japan. Whereas Samsung is a huge innovator, I've never seen a company rotate product line as quickly as Samsung - I really like this partnership alot as both can benefit. Yes, if SED ever gets on the market how long do you think it'll take the competitors to reverse engineer and pirate those technologies. Samsung has the money and resources to reverse engineer virtually anything. Toshiba/Canon bring out that SED - you'll see some secret shoppers from all those companies stealing or buying the rights to replicate it.

Sony has been a true leader and I've had many of their TV's and they are being forced to innovate to survive outside a CRT DV world and combine that with Samsung and I see a winner at both their ends and ours as customers. Competition breeds innovation! Go for it Sony! :D

A couple of things...

(1) Lack of 1080p inputs as a copy-protection issue is drivel. I find it hard to believe someone from Sony even said that. Nonsense.

(2) I doubt these TVs will accept 1080p over Firewire. And even if they did, it'd be MPEG-2 only. Very few studios are going to use MPEG-2 on high-def DVDs. In fact, any that do are likely to leave MPEG-2 quickly as the H.264/VC-1 encoding infrastructure comes on line. These TVs cannot decode any codec that isn't MPEG-2 -- so forget that.

(3) Sony has 1/2 of the microdisplay RPTV market now without any leading-edge product. The SXRD is intended to keep it that way, keep them away from TI, and even possibly grow share. As great as Samsung is doing in RPTV, Sony is doing better share-wise.

(4) Sony and Samsung specifically do not share technology in their LCD joint venture. They share a plant that makes panels. So both can and will differentiate. Keep in mind that volume production of even 46-inch panels at that plant remains unrealistic. There are no plans at this time for volume production of any sizes larger than that -- although I expect they will come last year.

(5) Samsung is a master at hyping things it never delivers... They have shown the 57-inch LCD for years. They showed their 40 inch for 3 years before you could realistically walk into a store and buy one. They briefly had a 46 at retail. It's gone with no current replacement. They also have shown non-existent 80 and 100-inch plasmas and a non-existent giant LCD in the 82-inch range.

Mark

...snip...
Sony has a future riding on SXRD and it is expected to set the standard for consumer TV's. They are not about to cut corners on the electronics since the R&D has been subsidized already via Qualia. Their profit margins have dwindled to a meager projected $285 Million whereas Samsung profits last year and this will exceed 10 Billion each year.

Isn't the 10 Billion figure for Samsung include all their other businesses as well???

A couple of things...

(1) Lack of 1080p inputs as a copy-protection issue is drivel. I find it hard to believe someone from Sony even said that. Nonsense.

(2) I doubt these TVs will accept 1080p over Firewire. And even if they did, it'd be MPEG-2 only. Very few studios are going to use MPEG-2 on high-def DVDs. In fact, any that do are likely to leave MPEG-2 quickly as the H.264/VC-1 encoding infrastructure comes on line. These TVs cannot decode any codec that isn't MPEG-2 -- so forget that.

(3) Sony has 1/2 of the microdisplay RPTV market now without any leading-edge product. The SXRD is intended to keep it that way, keep them away from TI, and even possibly grow share. As great as Samsung is doing in RPTV, Sony is doing better share-wise.

(4) Sony and Samsung specifically do not share technology in their LCD joint venture. They share a plant that makes panels. So both can and will differentiate. Keep in mind that volume production of even 46-inch panels at that plant remains unrealistic. There are no plans at this time for volume production of any sizes larger than that -- although I expect they will come last year.

(5) Samsung is a master at hyping things it never delivers... They have shown the 57-inch LCD for years. They showed their 40 inch for 3 years before you could realistically walk into a store and buy one. They briefly had a 46 at retail. It's gone with no current replacement. They also have shown non-existent 80 and 100-inch plasmas and a non-existent giant LCD in the 82-inch range.

Mark


You left out #6: Samsung still produces crap - quality is not in their vocabulary:)

Isn't the 10 Billion figure for Samsung include all their other businesses as well???

Yes. And Samsung does produce some nice, quality products. DLP's just aren't one of them. Samsung isn't even a small flea on a Sony's back when it comes to Microdisplay TV's: Sony is approaching the staggering figure of their 3LCD's being 2 out of 5 of EVERY Microdisplay set sold! All other technologies, all other manufacturer's combined sell only roughly 3 out of 5! AND Sony's market share is growing! What will happen when the SXRD's are out, i'll leave to you to figure out....

Samsung achieved profits of over US$10 billion for the first time in its 35-year history, a remarkable feat for a manufacturing company. Last year, only 9 companies recorded profits of over $10 billion, the majority being from either the financial services or oil industries. Yes, they have six divisions but considering they are one of a handful on the planet to attain those profits says alot.

I'm not bashing Sony, I own a Sony LCD FP and I've had CRT's for 20+ years but they are losing money - they are selling TV's in Japan for less than the production costs so they can compete with Sharp and others - Sharp is the leader in that part of the world when it comes to TV Sales. Sony has been cleaning house and creating alliances to strengthen themselves - Samsung must be doing something right? Sony does to but they are not squeezing profits they need.

ROGO - I don't want to get in a tussle with you but how could you have an agreement to share 24,000+ Patents and not share in the Electronics each manufacture? This patent sharing is a fact not something I made up as reported in the NY Times.

I know you're very learned and wise on this forum but what is the TV you own and favor? Do you champion any? Do you have anything positive to offer in regards to the 1080P sets folks are debating rather than what it isn't.

Can the 1080P Cup be half FULL and people look forward to the SXRD/ After all? It's pretty easy to do - just go view the Q006 thread and see the excitement there. What in the world is wrong with 1080i upconverted - last I looked I'm not blind and it looks awesome on my Sharp and it's only 32".

So far the Samsung folks are very happy with their results. I'm not trying to pick an argument with you but do you have anything supportive to offer regarding 1080P? You came with the similar arguments when the Samsung 1080P thread started. Can't we agree that they all have potential of looking terrific - regardless of whether it's a JVC, Samsung, Sony and others. I'm confident 1080P will evolve over time - money /profits drive innovation. If you've worked in the technology field you know that it evolves faster than any of us can comprehend it - it's pace outstrips any persons effort to keep pace - I work in it daily and my Degreed education may have ended many years ago but my attempts to keep pace with it's changes never ends-there's barely a day when I'm not going through some Tech training to keep pace today's next best thing is tomorrow's dinosaur. Anyone that has followed Moore's Law knows this for a fact and it has held for about 15 years now - so how can you honestly doubt that technology won't evolve to make true 1080P available in the near future? If GM and others can strive for a Hydrogen vehicle I certainly think 1080P is doable. JMO not intended as an attack! :)

Can we take the Sony/Samsung wee wee match outside and get back on topic. :rolleyes:

jesh... some people :p

So guys, is it confirmed that these accept a 1080p signal? I know many thought they "had too" as PS3 will output 1080p but is even that confirmed?


Actually, for those that didn't pick it up off the other unnecessary SXRD post, the manual for the new models, downloadable off the Sony website cleary states resolutions up to 1080i, not p unfortunately : link (http://www.sonystyle.com/intershoproot/eCS/Store/en/documents/specifications/KDS-R50XBR1_manual.pdf)

So guys, is it confirmed that these accept a 1080p signal? I know many thought they "had too" as PS3 will output 1080p but is even that confirmed?

No. It is confirmed they these DO NOT accept a 1080P signal.

"The new SXRD-based 50W and 60W sets have CableCARD slots, 2 HDMI inputs, an RGB PC input and a Memory Stick slot, but are shorn of 1080p inputs until content protection issues are resolved, TV Mktg. VP Greg Gudorf said."

I think this 1080p issue is an important one & it is truly part of MPAA/HD-DVD/BLU-RAY & other politics bull, but right now, above all, there is something more important:

Has anyone seen any of those 10 SXRD sets already out, yet??
Just anxious to sse/read anything about it!

With a 70" model about to drop, if it is anywhere near the SXRD 60" (not to mention the Qualia 006) in PQ, it's going to be a toss-up between buying the 70" JVC, waiting for a non-Qualia 70" SXRD, or robbing a bank to fund a 1080p plasma (LG 71", Panny 65" or a Fujitsu 63")

I'm with you on that one.
I would like a 70" model for my seating distances in the great room.
But it may STILL be too expensive for a model from anyone,of that size.
As much as i like the picture of the new Sammy,if anything that has three chip technology,that would appeal to me.
But they're still too darn expensive.... for now.
Hope the prices can drop a little on these SXRD's.

ROGO - I don't want to get in a tussle with you but how could you have an agreement to share 24,000+ Patents and not share in the Electronics each manufacture? This patent sharing is a fact not something I made up as reported in the NY Times.

I know you're very learned and wise on this forum but what is the TV you own and favor? Do you champion any? Do you have anything positive to offer in regards to the 1080P sets folks are debating rather than what it isn't.

Can the 1080P Cup be half FULL and people look forward to the SXRD/ After all? It's pretty easy to do - just go view the Q006 thread and see the excitement there. What in the world is wrong with 1080i upconverted - last I looked I'm not blind and it looks awesome on my Sharp and it's only 32".

So far the Samsung folks are very happy with their results. I'm not trying to pick an argument with you but do you have anything supportive to offer regarding 1080P? You came with the similar arguments when the Samsung 1080P thread started. Can't we agree that they all have potential of looking terrific - regardless of whether it's a JVC, Samsung, Sony and others.

You are joking right? I mean you must be joking. I have praised the Samsung 1080p sets over and over at AVS. Over and over. And over.

I have praised the value of deinterlacing 1080i to 1080p at AVS over and over. And over. I have been critical of bobbing and weaving to get there, but not of 3:2 pulldown, motion compensating or motion adaptive.

I have expressed -- in this thread and the Qualia thread and the projector forum and maybe the plasma forum -- that I might well buy one of these SXRD. I've called it a possible "reference display" -- a phrase that represents the highest of praise. And that's pretty significant given I'm a "flat panel snob" who thought an RPTV would never, ever again be in the offing.

The implication of your comments is I've got nothing positive to say about 1080p, the Sony SXRDs, Samsung, etc. when I've said good things about all of those (not to mention the LG LCOS for that matter).

And before you criticize my knowledge of the Sony and Samsung patent-sharing agreement, I direct you to this article (http://www.itworld.com/Man/2687/041214samsungsony/) .

I'll excerpt two critical paragraphs here:

"The agreement excludes patents that each company considers vital for differentiating its products from those of competitors, he said.

For example, Sony has patents for the Cell processor and PlayStation architecture which are not covered, as well as for LCD (liquid crystal display) and OLED (Organic Light Emitting Diodes) displays. Samsung's LCD and OLED patents, and those related to its home networking technology, also are not included. "

Westa, it is totally unfounded criticism that appears to be for criticism's sake that drives knowledgeable people from AVS Forum. If you're trying to get me to exis the RPTV area -- again as I've done it before -- you're on the right track.

Mark

Hey boys, there is no non Qualia 70" SXRD set about to drop. Sony is going to keep the current 70" LCD for another year. That was posted around page 20, give or take ten pages.

I was looking forward to upgrading to a non Qualia 70" SXRD. Guess that's not going to happen. But some of the recent post indicate that part of the reason is that it needs the brighter bulb (and associated electronics), and the larger SXRD chip. Although some of the other competitors such as Samsung are coming out with a 71" DLP using the same 1080P chip as their smaller sets, you have to wonder just how good is it going to look. Same would apply to JVC and others making 70" plus size sets. Just because its 70", doesn't necessarily mean that it keeps the same picture quality.

Rogo Westa, it is totally unfounded criticism that appears to be for criticism's sake that drives knowledgeable people from AVS Forum. If you're trying to get me to exis the RPTV area -- again as I've done it before -- you're on the right track.

I regret that I was trying to have an exchange of ideas with you, I was not trying to be sarcastic and no intent of driving you anywhere as you have much to share and I have an open mind. Having a disagreement to generate an exchange can be healthy - we wouldn't learn much if we just discussed with those that mirror our thoughts. The past 8 months I've learned much and I'm man enough to admit I've eaten crow several times as these discussions can generate an analysis that leads one down another path if you have an open mind and sometimes they are generated out of disagreement to arrive at agreement. I regret I was not clear where you stood on the SXRD and it appeared that in that post it was of a critical nature. No offense intended.

My exchange worked as you shared those ideas and I thank you - they weren't listed in your profile. It helps me understand your analysis better. You can have one take on a Trade Journal report and mine may be different than yours - doesn't make either of us wrong as this forum is for discussion of those facts and where they may take us. Again, you have much to offer and certainly have. There's a cumulative effect from seeing people slam 1080P(i) and yet there is nothing wrong with (i) and potential is great for 1080P. If I am viewing some of it on my own set and witness many others posting "knock your socks off PQ" then it becomes challenging to accept the criticisms.

I meant what I said, you are learned and wise and thank you for sharing - I learned from the experience! Thank you for sharing & Have a good day! :D

Trying to get this back on topic with a crazy idea - do you guys think that that the 1080i input on the new SXRDs could be HACKED to accept 1080p?

Would it need just a software patch or a hardware mod?

Gamers are a computer-oriented bunch - if Sony drags its feet and 1080p games are out there, someone may hack the sets.

Westa, as I read your post initially directed at rogo I kept thinking to myself that your statements were all blatantly incorrect as regards rogo and his positions and were also an unprompted personal attack (even though you repeatedly stated they weren't meant as such)...where did this personal attack and large disconnect come from?


As rogo has already pointed out to you, his positions were all completely opposite from the positions you ascribed to him.

My final thought was, why is this guy even posting here when he has already made it known that he has committed to the 1080p dlp camp and seems to be extremely unlikely that he will alter his position.

Sorry, just thought that rogo needed an expression of support on this before he ups and leaves taking his on-point insights with him!

Dumb, dumb dumb. I finally took a gander at the new SXRD sets on the Sonystyle website. Sony stated that they were trying to build bigger sets that would fit in smaller cabinets. What a great idea. They did this with the A10 series of sets by engineering the speakers to work in the bottom of the set. Why would they use an older design cabinet for the newer sets. The large dumbo ears (I love the look) make a 60" set take up 66" horizontally. Many of the newer 60"-62" sets only need 58" vertically. I for one will not be buying their new 60" set because my built in stand can only accomodate 62" horizontally. I guess my 720P sets will have to make do. I'm sure the next sets will be made with the lets get it to fit in a smaller cabinet philospohy and by then they should have HD DVD worked out as well as allowing a 1080P signal to be inputed into the set.

Duped post -sorry

Westa, as I read your post initially directed at rogo I kept thinking to myself that your statements were all blatantly incorrect as regards rogo and his positions...where did such a large disconnect come from?


As rogo has already pointed out to you, his positions were all completely opposite from the positions you ascribed to him.

My final thought was, why is this guy even posting here when he has already made it known that he has committed to the 1080p dlp camp and seems to be extremely unlikely that he will alter his position.

Sorry, just thought that rogo needed an expression of support on this before he ups and leaves taking his on-point insights with him!

Don't bother yourself with this person, Rogo.
This guy has even been questioned about his mental stability. He is well-known to go off on, harass or flame ANYONE who dares criticize Samsung or DLP's.
Or anyone he IMAGINES is posting such opinions. his posts are totally subjective, biased, and usually inaccurate and useless. He has gone so far off the deep end of objectivety that he has actually spent some decent amount of time to start an "Advertisement and Testimonial" thread by cutting and pasting only POSITIVE Samsung posts into his little fantasy world, thereby eliminating the negative comments and quality control issues that continually crop up on the legitimate Samsung threads. Scary. I fully realize that Samsung and some dealers who do very well selling them are sponsors of these forums and many associated with Samsung post here, so you have to take Pro-Samsung comments with a grain of salt, but this individual is so blatantly biased and unbalanced that i would doubt highly he is in any way in Samsung's employ. Actually, they would more likely run the other from him. Quickly:)! They are certainly not stupid and he does nothing but hurt them with his rants here....

It is Sony's version of the LCOS (liquid crystal on silicone) techology.

What, no "boob tube" jokes yet? To return to the vicious pedantry which occurred earlier in the thread: silicon is a nonmetallic element used heavily in semiconductor techonology (including liquid-crystal-on-silicon displays). Silicone is a group of related polymers, all of which contain silicon, which have a wide variety of uses. Semiconductor manufacture is not one of them, but there is another technology closely allied to television broadcasting which relies heavily on silicone. :rolleyes:

Trying to get this back on topic with a crazy idea - do you guys think that that the 1080i input on the new SXRDs could be HACKED to accept 1080p?

Would it need just a software patch or a hardware mod?

Gamers are a computer-oriented bunch - if Sony drags its feet and 1080p games are out there, someone may hack the sets.

not unless Sony actually put the 1080p input connectors on the back of the tv's, which seems doubtful. sure the hdmi spec allows for up to 1080p, but the majority of the actual input connectors on the tv's today only allow up to 1080i.

I'm new to this, but it seems that 1080p is the Holy Grail of HDTV because it displays every pixel of a deinterlaced 1080i input. No scaling is needed as with a 720p display. It is intuitive that this gives 1:1 mapping of the input signal onto the screen, so no resolution is lost? Right?

But what about overscan? The screen displays 1920 x 1080 pixels, but due to overscan the image is actually scaled 3-5% larger than that! So if the TV is doing a little bit of scaling anyway, 1080p is kind of arbitrary. Why not 1160p or 1000p?

If overscan is 3% vertically and horizontally, then the ideal microchip resolution should be 1864 x 1048 . This way what we actually see on the screen is mapped at 1:1.

Just curious. I know that, practically speaking, no one could tell such small differences, but since so much of the PQ discussion here is theoretical, I thought I would throw this out.

I've always wondered about overscan on fixed-pixel RPTVs. Is it electronic overscan, thereby requiring some re-scaling of the original signal? Or is it projection overscan, where the edges of the picture are projected beyond the visible portion of the screen? Overscan is pretty pointless with digital signals, but if the overscan is being performed electronically, then it goes beyond pointless to being plain stupid since the scaling requires extra processing and may compromise video quality. There'd be no 1:1 pixel mapping even for, say, a 720p set displaying a 720p signal, unless you eliminate the overscan completely. With projection overscan, some of the pixels would be off the screen but at least you'd always have 1:1 pixel mapping. Since most TVs can have overscan adjusted, at least in the service menu, I guess the overscan is produced electronically. Projection overscan could only be adjusted mechanically.

Trying to get this back on topic with a crazy idea - do you guys think that that the 1080i input on the new SXRDs could be HACKED to accept 1080p?

Would it need just a software patch or a hardware mod?

Gamers are a computer-oriented bunch - if Sony drags its feet and 1080p games are out there, someone may hack the sets.

I doubt it's something someone could hack. If the sets don't already have the programming to process 1080p signals, creating it would take a lot specialized knowledge of how the set processes signals internally. I think that would take a Sony engineer with expert knowledge of the set's processing electronics, and that guy probably won't bother until Sony pays him to do it.

Trying to get this back on topic with a crazy idea - do you guys think that that the 1080i input on the new SXRDs could be HACKED to accept 1080p?

Would it need just a software patch or a hardware mod?

Gamers are a computer-oriented bunch - if Sony drags its feet and 1080p games are out there, someone may hack the sets.

I believe the chip being used for 1080i HMDI only supports 1080p in the -7
speed grade. I doubt if it is only the chip that is the problem. IF it is, then one
could replace the chip with the -7 speed grade and have a 1080p
input. Additonally it would be very possible that the slower speed
grade HDMI chip would still operate at 1080p under ideal conditions...

Hey boys, there is no non Qualia 70" SXRD set about to drop. Sony is going to keep the current 70" LCD for another year. That was posted around page 20, give or take ten pages.

I was looking forward to upgrading to a non Qualia 70" SXRD. Guess that's not going to happen. But some of the recent post indicate that part of the reason is that it needs the brighter bulb (and associated electronics), and the larger SXRD chip. Although some of the other competitors such as Samsung are coming out with a 71" DLP using the same 1080P chip as their smaller sets, you have to wonder just how good is it going to look. Same would apply to JVC and others making 70" plus size sets. Just because its 70", doesn't necessarily mean that it keeps the same picture quality.

We will know regarding the 67 in. Samsung DLP any day now. One of my main
decisons for going with the 61 in. Samsung DLP is that Samsung had never
made a production DLP bigger then 61 in. before so didn't want to take the
chance. Also the Samsung specs spec lower light output for the 67 in. / 71 in. versions.

Regarding making a 70 in. SXRD using the old chip. Despite Sony's latest
announcement, I really doubt they would use an inferior SXRD chip on a new
display - I suspect that by the time they come out with a 70 in. SXRD they will
have optimized the electronics to keep the set bright.

I've always wondered about overscan on fixed-pixel RPTVs. Is it electronic overscan, thereby requiring some re-scaling of the original signal? Or is it projection overscan, where the edges of the picture are projected beyond the visible portion of the screen? Overscan is pretty pointless with digital signals, but if the overscan is being performed electronically, then it goes beyond pointless to being plain stupid since the scaling requires extra processing and may compromise video quality. There'd be no 1:1 pixel mapping even for, say, a 720p set displaying a 720p signal, unless you eliminate the overscan completely. With projection overscan, some of the pixels would be off the screen but at least you'd always have 1:1 pixel mapping. Since most TVs can have overscan adjusted, at least in the service menu, I guess the overscan is produced electronically. Projection overscan could only be adjusted mechanically.

My impression, at least based on the Samsung's is that the built in overscan is optical and the adjustment is electronic. This is evidenced by the fact that if you drive the set with a native signal, and adjust overscan (from the user menu for pc inputs, no service menu necessary) to be at its maximum setting, you get 1:1 mapping. This causes moderate overscan, which is exactly what you would expect if the overscan was optical. However, if you adjust the overscan to be less than the maximum, it shrinks the overscan, but you lose 1:1. This means, it is electronically scaling the image to be less than 1920x1080 pixels, rather than mechanically adjusting the optical overscan. I have no idea if, should you open the set, you would be able to actually adjust optical overscan.

Trying to get this back on topic with a crazy idea - do you guys think that that the 1080i input on the new SXRDs could be HACKED to accept 1080p?

Would it need just a software patch or a hardware mod?

Maybe this has already been mentioned, but a Sharp 45" LCD was hacked to display 1080p. Like our SXRD Sony, this Sharp unit could only accept a 1080i signal. Someone figured out how to bypass the set's scaler, thereby making it possible to send it a 1920x1080 progressive signal via a PC.

Sharp 45" LCD FAQ (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5688677#post5688677)

Isn't the real future in flat panels (ie LCD, plasma, SED, maybe even OLED), which folks can hang on the wall, not in bulky (admittedly less bulky, but still bulky compared to flat panels), RP microdisplays?

Thats a great point. That truly is the future, but for me, i cant wait for it, i want a tv NOW, and means the 60" SXRD which i hope i will have for 10 years, because it will be impossible to get my wife to agree to another tv sooner! (unless i could find a way to sabotage the set or have someone steal it)!!!

Did you get this info by calling them because I can't seem to access it on their website?

I called them on the phone and got a price. Went to the store and put down a deposit.

I called them on the phone and got a price. Went to the store and put down a deposit.Did you get the 50 or 60?

Uninvited Guest, got the 60".

I called Tweeter in Raleigh, NC today and was told they were expecting both the 50" and 60" models in on September 9. He told me these dates are not guaranteed but that they're usually pretty accurate. This is much sooner than I thought :) Has anyone else heard anything new regarding release dates or availability?

I called Tweeter in Raleigh, NC today and was told they were expecting both the 50" and 60" models in on September 9. He told me these dates are not guaranteed but that they're usually pretty accurate. This is much sooner than I thought :) Has anyone else heard anything new regarding release dates or availability?My 60" order is through a division of Tweeter. I was told similarly between Sept. 9 and Sept 29, subject to acts of god or Sony.

Earlier in this thread, as well as in the Qualia thread, I posted the concern over a lack of 1080P input in my Q6, as well as the upcoming SXRD models.

Focusing on one element of my post, does anyone have an opinion on the prospect of an outboard processer that would be capable of accepting a 1080P source, outputting it as 1080I into an SXRD TV (or any 1080P native set), and then having the TV display the signal as 1080P? And, is it likely or possible that a gaming console, HD player, or whatever, that outputs 1080P can be set to 1080I for the same purpose?

I have a hard time imagining that Sony, Toshiba, Microsoft, etc., would disenfranchise all of the 1080I/768/720 TVs with 1080P sources that couldn't be displayed at all. On the other hand, things are getting dangerously close to closing the "analog hole" and downrezing HD from a component connection. So, I suppose when it comes to whizzing on the early adopters, anything is possible.

The Sharp example for 1080p doesn't apply. That one Sharp model used an outboard box that was tethered to the display via DVI. The scaler / processor was inside the box, not the screen, so it could be bypassed.

Nothing similar will apply to the SXRDs alas.

Everyone else, thanks. Even you Westa, but please read what I actually say before criticizing me for taking diametrically opposite positions.

There are millions of 720P and 1080i set so that are not going to alienate their core base to pander to a small majority.

Please stop with the "Where to buy and non msrp pricing"

I don't want to close this thread, but next time I wont do another clean up like this.

Just called Tweeter and order the 60 inch model. There 30 day return policy is really what sealed the deal, as well as their 15% discount. I am number 2 on their list in my region. They said units should be received on Sept 9th in their warehouse and should be delivered by mid week on 19th at latest to my house. We will see how accurate that estimate really is. Now I have buy a stand, anyone have some recomendations?

How many other people have made the plunge?

Earlier in this thread, as well as in the Qualia thread, I posted the concern over a lack of 1080P input in my Q6, as well as the upcoming SXRD models.

Focusing on one element of my post, does anyone have an opinion on the prospect of an outboard processer that would be capable of accepting a 1080P source, outputting it as 1080I into an SXRD TV (or any 1080P native set), and then having the TV display the signal as 1080P? And, is it likely or possible that a gaming console, HD player, or whatever, that outputs 1080P can be set to 1080I for the same purpose?

For the scaler, the impression I get is that as long as the original is progressive at 30fps (or 24 with 3:2 pulldown), which was then interlaced, the tv should be able to deinterlace that back into the original progressive frame with no loss in quality right? Therefore, if you had a scaler that deinterlaced native 1080i material into a single 30fps 1080p signal, than reinterlaced that single 1080p frame and output it at 1080i 60 fields per second, in effect you are doing all the important processing in the scaler. Wouldn't the tv deinterlace that signal back to the exact 30fps 1080p signal the scaler originally arrived at? The same thing would work for scaling from any resolution, interlaced or progressive. As long as the scaler eventually arrived 1080p 30fps you could send that to the tv with no quality loss by interlacing it again.

As for the game console, I don't think that would work in some cases. If the game is 60fps 1080p, obviously outputing that at 1080i is going to throw away half the data, you will only be able to deinterlace it back to 30 frames per second. I would say that for a console 60fps is desirable, but not all games run at that speed (I would especially think it may be more rare at 1080p because that will have to be pushing the limits of the console). Assuming it's not 60fps 1080p, if it is output at 1080i by the console, I'm not sure if it will be simply deinterlaceable into 1080p 30fps. It depends on whether the console renders 1080p 30fps and interlaces that, or if the console renders 60 fields per second and no two fields are from the same frame. I'm not sure which method they use for rendering.

Well, I'm not sure I cleared anything up, if anyone has any corrections, please let me know. This is just me trying to flesh out my understanding as much as anything.

Qualia 006 SXRD RPTV has a special front glass which greatly improves the big RPTV bugaboo (IMO) - poor off-axis PQ.

That was confirmed in many reviews. The flipside is that this glass is highly reflective.

Does anyone know what kind of front glass the new SXRD XBRs have? Is it the Qualia 006-type, or regular Sony RPTV-type.

If the former, I am happy (reflections don't bother me much - I watch mostly in darkened room). If the latter, however - that would be a major bummer - the poor off-axis PQ of RPTVs is a major drawback for me.

Peeps,

I am sorry for swaying from the thread but I have read back several pages and could not find this info:

If this is not going to have 1080p inputs, what is the difference from this set and the A10's or any other 1080i set? Once 1080p becaomes part of the broadcasting, will this set be able to "display" it in 1080p with an HD DVR through digital cable? Is that the main difference?

Nick

Did you spring for the extended warranty, Step?

For the scaler, the impression I get is that as long as the original is progressive at 30fps (or 24 with 3:2 pulldown), which was then interlaced, the tv should be able to deinterlace that back into the original progressive frame with no loss in quality right? Therefore, if you had a scaler that deinterlaced native 1080i material into a single 30fps 1080p signal, than reinterlaced that single 1080p frame and output it at 1080i 60 fields per second, in effect you are doing all the important processing in the scaler. Wouldn't the tv deinterlace that signal back to the exact 30fps 1080p signal the scaler originally arrived at? The same thing would work for scaling from any resolution, interlaced or progressive. As long as the scaler eventually arrived 1080p 30fps you could send that to the tv with no quality loss by interlacing it again.

I'm curious about this too. When I read the manual, I noticed the CineMotion setting (which performs 3:2 pulldown) is disabled for 480p and 720p signals, as you'd expect, but presumably it's still enabled for 1080i. This seems to indicate that the TV can do 3:2 pulldown on 1080i, provided the flags are there for it. If so then it should be able to reconstruct the original 1080p24 source from a 1080i60 signal.

Qualia 006 SXRD RPTV has a special front glass which greatly improves the big RPTV bugaboo (IMO) - poor off-axis PQ.

That was confirmed in many reviews. The flipside is that this glass is highly reflective.

Does anyone know what kind of front glass the new SXRD XBRs have? Is it the Qualia 006-type, or regular Sony RPTV-type.

If the former, I am happy (reflections don't bother me much - I watch mostly in darkened room). If the latter, however - that would be a major bummer - the poor off-axis PQ of RPTVs is a major drawback for me.

There was an article posted a few days back that showed the new SXRD with what appeared to be a reflective screen. On the other hand, the weight of the SXRD is not significantly greater than its predecessor the XS, which you'd expect if it was using the heavy Qualia-style screen. It seems that perhaps some compromise between the two has been used on this TV: a more lightweight version of the Qualia screen perhaps. Whether it will work as well as the Qualia screen for improving off-angle viewing or reducing screen artifacts remains to be seen.

Qualia 006 SXRD RPTV has a special front glass which greatly improves the big RPTV bugaboo (IMO) - poor off-axis PQ.

That was confirmed in many reviews. The flipside is that this glass is highly reflective.

Does anyone know what kind of front glass the new SXRD XBRs have? Is it the Qualia 006-type, or regular Sony RPTV-type.

If the former, I am happy (reflections don't bother me much - I watch mostly in darkened room). If the latter, however - that would be a major bummer - the poor off-axis PQ of RPTVs is a major drawback for me.

The new models do not have a "glass" panel. Are you sure the Qualia screen is meant to improve off-axis viewing? The 50/60 in SXRD's look just like an other LCD screen, which have minimal reflections. I think the off-axis performance is easily acceptable compared to RPJ products of the past.

There was an article posted a few days back that showed the new SXRD with what appeared to be a reflective screen. On the other hand, the weight of the SXRD is not significantly greater than its predecessor the XS, which you'd expect if it was using the heavy Qualia-style screen. It seems that perhaps some compromise between the two has been used on this TV: a more lightweight version of the Qualia screen perhaps. Whether it will work as well as the Qualia screen for improving off-angle viewing or reducing screen artifacts remains to be seen.I was at a friends house who has an XS. The reflection was about the same as the picture you're reffering to.

Peeps,

I am sorry for swaying from the thread but I have read back several pages and could not find this info:

If this is not going to have 1080p inputs, what is the difference from this set and the A10's or any other 1080i set?

The A10 is 720p, not 1080i. Only CRT RPTVs are 1080i.

Differences:
1) Approx. 2x the resolution, and capability to display 1080i without downscaling.
2) No SDE (A10 has pretty noticable SDE)
3) 60" screen size available
4) More inputs (though sadly no 1080p HDMI)
5) Better sound (at the expense of the speaker wings that annoy some)
6) Improved contrast, colors, and response time of SXRD vs LCD
7) Likely reduction in SSE

Once 1080p becaomes part of the broadcasting, will this set be able to "display" it in 1080p with an HD DVR through digital cable? Is that the main difference?

Will your cable provider increase their bandwidth enough to carry 1080p? Will your DVR be able to save and output 1080p? It will probably be a long time before either happens.

I was at a friends house who has an XS. The reflection was about the same as the picture you're reffering to.

I had an XS for about 3 weeks. Mine didn't have any reflections, only a bit of highly-diffused glare when there was light falling directly on the screen.

Peeps,

I am sorry for swaying from the thread but I have read back several pages and could not find this info:

If this is not going to have 1080p inputs, what is the difference from this set and the A10's or any other 1080i set? Once 1080p becaomes part of the broadcasting, will this set be able to "display" it in 1080p with an HD DVR through digital cable? Is that the main difference?

Nick

The main difference is that these SXRD sets use three 1920x1080 SXRD (Sony's version of LCoS) Panels. The A10's are 3 LCD panels (1366 x 768 resolution).

The SXRD's can only accept a 1080i signal and so they need to upconvert (or is it deinterlace?) the signal to 1080P.

The new models do not have a "glass" panel. Are you sure the Qualia screen is meant to improve off-axis viewing? The 50/60 in SXRD's look just like an other LCD screen, which have minimal reflections. I think the off-axis performance is easily acceptable compared to RPJ products of the past.

Hey bum, you sound like you've seen these SXRDs....give us the skinny, you are like a hen in a fox den :D

It also brings up great points about Playstation and HD DVD or Blu Ray....will any of these formats have 1080p outputs if copy protection issues haven't been figured out yet?! Sheesh....thank you MPAA is right! :mad:

The Qualia FireWire has been reported to not accept HD. If true, this fits my belief that only HDMI will be used for BR in/out -- at least by Sony. Sony has already said BR will not record HDV via FW. The Panasonic BR in Japan does not even have FW.

Your cable box will output HDMI and your TV will input HDMI.

Since the BR disks will be 1080i I expect when played they will output only 1080i on ANY player. Thus leaving game content the only media that will be 1080p. So I don't think CP has anything to do with not having 1080p.

Which once again, raises the question that since there is NO and likely never will be any content in 1080p, what's the point of 1080p?

Since the BR disks will be 1080i I expect when played they will output only 1080i on ANY player. Thus leaving game content the only media that will be 1080p. So I don't think CP has anything to do with not having 1080p.

Which once again, raises the question that since there is NO and likely never will be any content in 1080p, what's the point of 1080p?

You just said yourself game consoles will be 1080p. Also there are computers and external scalers. Certainly the last two are fairly small segments of the market, but it interests enough people here. If I'm paying this much for a tv, I'd really rather be able to do everything I want to do with it, without compromise. Including play next gen game consoles, and hook up my computer. Other than possibly game consoles, I don't think there is any source the will interest the mass market, but that is different from there being no source at all. In other words, I understand the decision on Sony's part, but I still wish, for me personally, that it had 1080p inputs, because I will use them.

The Qualia FireWire has been reported to not accept HD. If true, this fits my belief that only HDMI will be used for BR in/out -- at least by Sony.

This statement is incorrect in so far as the Qualia accepting HD via firewire...not sure where you've seen this reported, but the Qualia does indeed accept HD over any one of its three i.link (firewire) ports...

If copyright and the MPAA are the big hold-up (which doesn't seem to hold water), and if there is no practical purpose for accepting a 1080p signal, why would Qualia (Sony) have offered a "fix" to allow their 004 FP to accept such a signal? The only way I see myself plunking down a significant chunk of change on one of these upcoming SXRD sets (or any other short-term 1080p technology), is if I truly believed that the point in the future where I will want my television to accept a 1080p signal is more than three or four years away. And I don't.

If copyright and the MPAA are the big hold-up (which doesn't seem to hold water), and if there is no practical purpose for accepting a 1080p signal, why would Qualia (Sony) have offered a "fix" to allow their 004 FP to accept such a signal? The only way I see myself plunking down a significant chunk of change on one of these upcoming SXRD sets (or any other short-term 1080p technology), is if I truly believed that the point in the future where I will want my television to accept a 1080p signal is more than three or four years away. And I don't.

Well, I assume the percentage of people who drive a $30,000 (?) projector with an external scaler is much much higher than the percentage who drive a $5000 rear projection tv sold to the mass market.

You left out #6: Samsung still produces crap - quality is not in their vocabulary:)

Yes. And Samsung does produce some nice, quality products. DLP's just aren't one of them. Samsung isn't even a small flea on a Sony's back when it comes to Microdisplay TV's: Sony is approaching the staggering figure of their 3LCD's being 2 out of 5 of EVERY Microdisplay set sold! All other technologies, all other manufacturer's combined sell only roughly 3 out of 5! AND Sony's market share is growing! What will happen when the SXRD's are out, i'll leave to you to figure out....

Regarding what I put in bold: contradicting yourself in 2 posts made one after the other ?

Besides, you're wrong. Samsung USED to produce crap. Not anymore. They're not in Sony's league just yet, but they're close. Sony is actually compared to Samsung a lot lately, because Sony's TV business is going down the drain (for now anyway) and Samsung's is going sky-high. They've outgrown all expectations.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer Sony, but personal preferences are a totally different matter. The facts remain. You're flat out wrong about Samsung.

About patents:

It seems pretty obvious they would only share the necessary patents, not those related to products competing with each other. It's a strategic alliance, not a technological one. By the way, it's not exactly as if Sony just discovered Samusng was a big player. The Sony 42M1 plasma used a Samsung panel...

About overscan and 1:1 mapping:

Did all of you miss the option in the menu that allows you to change the overscan (it's in the SXRD manual) ?

About hacking the HDMI:

Aside from the chip, which has already been mentioned above, there are other components needed. The chip may well work at a higher frequency, so you'd have to re-do the clock signal. And this is not a computer motherboard, you can't change it depending on the processor you stick in. You also need RAM, and with more data, you need more...

On the other hand, this being a 1080p set, everything else should be ready to handle 1080p signals. More or less anyway. If the scaler is the first thing after the inputs, then it's good. If picture processing comes first, with scaler last, then nothing is sure. Technologically, it would make more sense to have the scaler last. You don't want to do processing on something that has already been scaled. Scaling introduces artifacts, which would then be in turn processed and possibly made worse.

About the need for 1080p:

HTPCs and the PS3 may be the only sources now, but that means nothing for the future, no matter what the Blue-Ray or HD-DVD preliminary specs are. No way to tell there won't be new standards several years down the road. No way to tell that cable companies won't broadcast in 1080p. Bandwidth is a commodity these days, and it increases every day. It's far from impossible. And TVs last several years for most people. There's a need for 1080p, but it's simply early.

The SXRD's can only accept a 1080i signal and so they need to upconvert (or is it deinterlace?) the signal to 1080P.

You mean it can only accept UP to 1080i. Not just 1080i. That would be a problem, lol.

Well, I assume the percentage of people who drive a $30,000 (?) projector with an external scaler is much much higher than the percentage who drive a $5000 rear projection tv sold to the mass market.


my point was just that if copyright was the problem, and there was no practical use for it, it would not have been made available by Sony to their customers at this point in time.

I'm new to this, but it seems that 1080p is the Holy Grail of HDTV because it displays every pixel of a deinterlaced 1080i input. No scaling is needed as with a 720p display. It is intuitive that this gives 1:1 mapping of the input signal onto the screen, so no resolution is lost? Right?

But what about overscan? The screen displays 1920 x 1080 pixels, but due to overscan the image is actually scaled 3-5% larger than that! So if the TV is doing a little bit of scaling anyway, 1080p is kind of arbitrary. Why not 1160p or 1000p?

If overscan is 3% vertically and horizontally, then the ideal microchip resolution should be 1864 x 1048 . This way what we actually see on the screen is mapped at 1:1.

Just curious. I know that, practically speaking, no one could tell such small differences, but since so much of the PQ discussion here is theoretical, I thought I would throw this out.

That's a very good question. My 60WF655 has a user menu overscan adjustment so I tried it on NTSC and HD signals. Other than seeing the picture grow or shrink slightly I couldn't see any differences in the quality of the picture. If anyone knows what Sony actually does with this adjustment (and if there is an "optimum" setting) I would love to hear an explanation. Maybe you need some single-pixel test patterns to really see any changes.

Why only 3 weeks?

Gazelle, could we PLEASE not turn this thread into yet another Samsung bashing?
Lets discuss the new Sony SXRDs based on their own merits. Please? :D


You sure you ain't a Samsung Employee, Dude?? You sure do spend a lot of time going around to every thread challenging or bashing anyone who has an ill word to say about Samsung. I don't think you have much credibility. Oh, speaking of Samsung, you don't have to worry about anyone bashing them more than they do themselves. You only have to keep track of the amount of problem sets or dead sets they've been delivering lately on these forums to realize their quality and reliabilty, which have been a knock on their DLP's for years, hasn't improved any. The Sony SXRDs will stand or fall on their own merit and my money surely will be on Sony when it comes to quality and reliabilty. Surely when comparing Sony LCD RPTV or Qualia or SXRDs to Samsung DLPs. Are you kidding? Is this a joke or something? I'll take one gazeely over twenty of you. At least i get honest, truthful opinions, not Samsung cheerleading nonsense. Jeez! get real:)

DJBentle,

Thank you for your thoughtful insights. This topic is all about speculation and conjecture at this point. And taking a cue from high-end audio, my belief is that someone will fill that scaling gap when enough certainty hits the market about 1080P sources. Audio folks take obsession over detail and nuance to ridiculous extremes in search of perfect sound. I see many similarities in the video arena now that we are seeing such amazing performance possibilities with recent technologies.

The Qualia FireWire has been reported to not accept HD. If true, this fits my belief that only HDMI will be used for BR in/out -- at least by Sony. Sony has already said BR will not record HDV via FW. The Panasonic BR in Japan does not even have FW.

Your cable box will output HDMI and your TV will input HDMI.

Since the BR disks will be 1080i I expect when played they will output only 1080i on ANY player. Thus leaving game content the only media that will be 1080p. So I don't think CP has anything to do with not having 1080p.

Which once again, raises the question that since there is NO and likely never will be any content in 1080p, what's the point of 1080p?

Well thats just it....even IF BR discs were to be made in 1080p, and in THEORY, 1080p output was available from the BR discs, would the data in 1080p format even fit on the disc? Also, do you happen to know if BR has confirmed 1080i as the format?

I agree, I have a feeling that even if any High Def DVD player outputs 1080p that the material will probably be 1080i. So that leaves PS3 and PCs. To me I can deal with that, as I would not use a PC for HTPC (at this point anyway) and I'm not a big gamer. If I was, it might be a different story...but even then, how many 1080p games will there be?

We'll see what happens!

Other than seeing the picture grow or shrink slightly I couldn't see any differences in the quality of the picture... Maybe you need some single-pixel test patterns to really see any changes.
Hmmm...

If you had this pixel pattern on your screen:

X X O O X X O O

and scaled it up by 50% (same as going from 720p to 1080p, ie 720*1.5=1080), it would look like this:

X X X O O O X X X O O O

and look pretty smooth. But how does the TV scale such an image by only 5%??? I guess when you have 1920 pixels to work with, our eyes just don't have the resolving power to see scaling irregularities.

Any opinions if these babies are really going to be out and about in September or that just BS and October or November more realistic dates for finally getting to see and compare?

You sure you ain't a Samsung Employee, Dude?? You sure do spend a lot of time going around to every thread challenging or bashing anyone who has an ill word to say about Samsung. I don't think you have much credibility. Oh, speaking of Samsung, you don't have to worry about anyone bashing them more than they do themselves. You only have to keep track of the amount of problem sets or dead sets they've been delivering lately on these forums to realize their quality and reliabilty, which have been a knock on their DLP's for years, hasn't improved any. The Sony SXRDs will stand or fall on their own merit and my money surely will be on Sony when it comes to quality and reliabilty. Surely when comparing Sony LCD RPTV or Qualia or SXRDs to Samsung DLPs. Are you kidding? Is this a joke or something? I'll take one gazeely over twenty of you. At least i get honest, truthful opinions, not Samsung cheerleading nonsense. Jeez! get real:)Another useless post from Sammik...if you want to bash Samsung go over to the Samsung owners thread and talk your BS over there...what a IDIOT you are...Sorry everyone...now back on topic.

If I am correct, all reference to the TV Tyro Foundation has been removed from this thread. For those of you who may have seen it, I wish to report that the last few sentences should now read as follows:

To quote the Bruce Dern character Lowell Freeman in the Film "Silent Running", "Things haven't worked out for me." If you want to contact me but cannot find me here, instead of checking the Qualia FP thread, I direct you to the Apex 13" CRT thread. I can only hope that the underpriviliged who end up buying these sets find another way to have otoplasty performed on their SXRD's. I am just one man. Now if you will excuse me, I have to go cancel my bid on the old PTL Club complex.

If I am correct, all reference to the TV Tyro Foundation has been removed from this thread. For those of you who may have seen it, I wish to report that the last few sentences should now read as follows:

To quote the Bruce Dern character Lowell Freeman in the Film "Silent Running", "Things haven't worked out for me." If you want to contact me but cannot find me here, instead of checking the Qualia FP thread, I direct you to the Apex 13" CRT thread. I can only hope that the underpriviliged who end up buying these sets find another way to have otoplasty performed on their SXRD's. I am just one man. Now if you will excuse me, I have to go cancel my bid on the old PTL Club complex.

You lost me, Dude.

Another useless post from Sammik...if you want to bash Samsung go over to the Samsung owners thread and talk your BS over there...what a IDIOT you are...Sorry everyone...now back on topic.

Yeah, right. Your post was reel useful. Another Samsungite heard from. Notice you posted on the stalker's All-Samsung, All-Rah-Rah, 24/7 nutjob thread. We really need to hear from anyone posting there. Hah!

Yeah, right. Your post was reel useful!Like I said go talk your BS in the Samsung forum...this is not the place to rant how bad Samsung is...what is it you don't understand...this is the Sony SXRD 50" and 60" - Oct/Nov thread. :rolleyes:

Like I said go talk your BS in the Samsung forum...this is not the place to rant how bad Samsung is...what is it you don't understand...this is the Sony SXRD 50" and 60" - Oct/Nov thread. :rolleyes:

It's you doing the ranting, Mac. I'm in the right thread. I'm trying to find out info on when i can see these babies. I may be in the market for one if it checks out OK.
Now what are you doing here?

Guys....if you want to bash, do it in private messages....

Back to topic, did anyone happen to make it to the Pennsylvania press conference at the Sony Technology Center?

Like I said go talk your BS in the Samsung forum...this is not the place to rant how bad Samsung is...what is it you don't understand...this is the Sony SXRD 50" and 60" - Oct/Nov thread. :rolleyes:

It's you doing the ranting, Mac. I'm in the right thread. I'm trying to find out info on when i can see these babies. I may be in the market for one if it checks out OK.
Now what are you doing here?


Take it to PM children. Discuss it amongst yourselves for eternity.


.

Guys....if you want to bash, do it in private messages....

Back to topic, did anyone happen to make it to the Pennsylvania press conference at the Sony Technology Center?
I think our discussion on that topic was "moderated" to oblivion.

It's you doing the ranting, Mac. I'm in the right thread. I'm trying to find out info on when i can see these babies. I may be in the market for one if it checks out OK.
Now what are you doing here?Looking to get a 50 sxrd for my bedroom MAC. :rolleyes:

Guys....if you want to bash, do it in private messages....

Back to topic, did anyone happen to make it to the Pennsylvania press conference at the Sony Technology Center?


Good point. Don't know why i even respond to these whackjobs. It would be very nice if someone who was out there and saw the SXRD could post an opinion here. Maybe we'll get lucky.

I think our discussion on that topic was "moderated" to oblivion.

Hahahaha I hear ya....so UG, what are your thoughts on the missing 1080p inputs? Are you concerned at all?

Good point. Don't know why i even respond to these whackjobs. It would be very nice if someone who was out there and saw the SXRD could post an opinion here. Maybe we'll get lucky.

We can only hope :D Apparently there are about ten sets floating around -- maybe for reviewers? I need to get some press credentials....I think I want to start a new A/V magazine :o

"Gentlemen! Gentlemen! Let's not get our pocket protectors all twisted in a knot."

Sammick...you had to see the original post.

"Gentlemen! Gentlemen! Let's not get our pocket protectors all twisted in a knot."

Sammick...you had to see the original post.


Ok. Figured i must've walked in on the middle of a conversation.

About overscan and 1:1 mapping:

Did all of you miss the option in the menu that allows you to change the overscan (it's in the SXRD manual) ?

The XS also had an overscan adjustment, though IIRC, the settings were -1, 0, and +1, while the new SXRD has Normal, +1 and +2. I don't know how much different they'll be, but on the XS even at the lowest Overscan setting from the menu there was still overscan present. It may have been possible to completely remove overscan in the service menu, but I never ventured that far.

Why only 3 weeks?

Many reasons, most of which I hope the SXRD will improve on or fix:

1) Grainy PQ and occasional SDE
2) Lots of SSE (worse than the Samsung 61" DLP I had before it)
3) Poor black levels
4) Somewhat noisy fan

I was very very close to keeping it, but in the end I just couldn't quite convince myself I was happy with it. The final straw was watching the Shark Tale DVD. On the Sammy it had looked clean, clear, nearly HD-like; re-watching it on the XS it looked much noisier and grainier.

My impression, at least based on the Samsung's is that the built in overscan is optical and the adjustment is electronic. This is evidenced by the fact that if you drive the set with a native signal, and adjust overscan (from the user menu for pc inputs, no service menu necessary) to be at its maximum setting, you get 1:1 mapping. This causes moderate overscan, which is exactly what you would expect if the overscan was optical. However, if you adjust the overscan to be less than the maximum, it shrinks the overscan, but you lose 1:1. This means, it is electronically scaling the image to be less than 1920x1080 pixels, rather than mechanically adjusting the optical overscan. I have no idea if, should you open the set, you would be able to actually adjust optical overscan.
This makes sense. So leave Overscan at normal or 0 setting. Doubt you could change the optics.

Hahahaha I hear ya....so UG, what are your thoughts on the missing 1080p inputs? Are you concerned at all?I'm not too worried about it. I don't think the networks want to invest a penny more into infastructure than they absolutly must. They are prefectly content with 1080i and 720p. The media servers like Home Theatre PC's and Blu-Ray players are our best bet for good source material. On Apple's website they have downloadable Quicktime movies using the H.264 Video Codec, 1920x1080 (1080p) video at 24-30 frames per second. If the original source material coming off a Blu-Ray disc is 1080i/60 being converted by the TV to 1080p/30, and it does a great job, I'm not worried one bit. If they playback anything like these do on my G4 powerbook, I'll be pleased as punch!

The movies on Apple's site size roughly 1mb per second of video. Let's just average by linearly extrapolating the size of a 2hr 1920x1080p movie (120min, 7200 sec) following the same ratio you get a 7.03125 gigabyte file (1024mb=1gb). That file size leaves plenty of room on a Blu-ray disc for more video, extras, audio tracks and data.

So I don't think I will lose any sleep while everyone potificates about 1080p/60 and why they love another manufacturer so much.

BTW, here's the link to Apple's site with the movie trailers you can checkout.
Quicktime HD (http://www.apple.com/quicktime/hdgallery/)

We can only hope :D Apparently there are about ten sets floating around -- maybe for reviewers? I need to get some press credentials....I think I want to start a new A/V magazine :oMy price for credentials has gone up substanially since the fuzz cracked down on us :D

My price for credentials has gone up substanially since the fuzz cracked down on us :D
Glad I got mine while they lasted! :D

Just about time for a new thread...:rolleyes:

Jason

Glad I got mine while they lasted! :D

Just about time for a new thread...:rolleyes:

JasonYep. But if you start it make sure you put something like "No Chatter" or "Only Opinions I Agree With" in the title. Seems to be a popular trend these days.
:D

My only concern is the field of view. Plasmas have a wide field of view. How will this thing compare?

My only concern is the field of view. Plasmas have a wide field of view. How will this thing compare?

Supposedly decent: 130' Horz. & 60' Vert. Better than almost all microdisplays, but none of these sets can compare to a Plasma's field of view.

Yep. But if you start it make sure you put something like "No Chatter" or "Only Opinions I Agree With" in the title. Seems to be a popular trend these days.
:D

Yes, very sad. Any discussion thread of any product that can't handle both people who say that a product is the greatest thing since sliced bread AND that same product sucks big time and is a total POS without personal attacks is worthless. Obviously. A really objective forum would suspend anyone who attacks another person for their opinion. You should be able to argue pros & cons without these "sponsors puppets" bashing you when dislike their product(s). But it's very understandable when some of the forums biggest sponsors are the manufacturer of the most bashed product and some of the dealers who sell it:). This forum is not non-profit, you know:).

This forum is not non-profit, you know:).Really? Dang G-Man,
I thought they were using the funds from the AVS Forum Club membership to hire a pony ride at the next AVS Forum Club members party. ;)

I appreciate the forum being here and I understand them protecting the sponsorship. There was a Jeep forum I used to frequent that did the same. If you can turn a blind eye to some of the hipocracy the rules foster it's not so bad.

So I see you sitting on both sides of the fence here. You appear to understand where Sony and Samsung sit in the marketplace as well as other manufactures. Do you think SXRD will be a mainstream success right from the start or will it only entice the XBR-type of buyer? Will the 50" SXRD steal the growing 50" plasma marketshare?

You sure you ain't a Samsung Employee, Dude?? You sure do spend a lot of time going around to every thread challenging or bashing anyone who has an ill word to say about Samsung. I don't think you have much credibility. Oh, speaking of Samsung, you don't have to worry about anyone bashing them more than they do themselves. You only have to keep track of the amount of problem sets or dead sets they've been delivering lately on these forums to realize their quality and reliabilty, which have been a knock on their DLP's for years, hasn't improved any. The Sony SXRDs will stand or fall on their own merit and my money surely will be on Sony when it comes to quality and reliabilty. Surely when comparing Sony LCD RPTV or Qualia or SXRDs to Samsung DLPs. Are you kidding? Is this a joke or something? I'll take one gazeely over twenty of you. At least i get honest, truthful opinions, not Samsung cheerleading nonsense. Jeez! get real:)


SammiK - I don't mean to offend you, and thanks for the compliment, but a "word to the wise". Many Industry Pros and Manufacturer's and Dealer's Employees hang here, so if you post something negative on Samsung especially, since they are big sponsors as are etailers selling them here, you are going to be attacked. It's a fact of life. Samsung spends over $100,000,000 a year on Advertising and Promoting. Do you seriously think they don't have at least a few in here full time to counter negative comments:). Not to mention etailers employees who also monitor and post on these boards. Express your opinions, but don't respond to those who attack you for them. They either get paid to do so, are blindly loyal to a product or manufacturer, or just don't know any better. Ignore them and you'll be a lot less stressed.

AND ---- I do have a bone to pick with you: Gazeely????:(


P.S. It is looking more like Sony is getting an "A" for production & Manufacture. They appear to be ahead of schedule and may actually have a lot of SXRD's shipping by Mid-September. Now, it would be a disappointment if they aren't available until October, but, as always, we'll have to wait and see. Cheers.

So, last night I cut a 66"X40" piece of cardboard out of the side of a box I had left over from a home improvement project. I tapped it over my existing TV to see if there was any possible way to squeeze the new 60" SXRD into my space. While technically I can get it to fit, it looks ridiculously large and would dominate the room. Damn! I have followed this thread from the start, so it comes as a great disappointment that I can't get an SXRD. Sure, I could go with the 50" set, but I currently have a 57" CRT RPTV (that is 53" wide), and I don't want to drop 7" of screen just to have an SXRD. I may wait six months to see if Sony will release a new, narrower case design, but I'll also be taking a look at the 1080p competition this fall. The front runner right now is the Mitsubishi WD62927. I'm not holding my breath, because I haven't been all that impressed with DLP picture quality, but damn the case design of the WD62927 is the best looking I've seen. Simple, clean with just enough shape to make it stylish.

Take a look for yourself.

http://mitsubishi-tv.com/televisions/details.asp?id=195

I only wish Sony had used the time they spent redisgning the lower priced LCD sets (the A10) to redisign the SXRD case instead.

Really? Dang G-Man,
I thought they were using the funds from the AVS Forum Club membership to hire a pony ride at the next AVS Forum Club members party. ;)

I appreciate the forum being here and I understand them protecting the sponsorship. There was a Jeep forum I used to frequent that did the same. If you can turn a blind eye to some of the hipocracy the rules foster it's not so bad.

So I see you sitting on both sides of the fence here. You appear to understand where Sony and Samsung sit in the marketplace as well as other manufactures. Do you think SXRD will be a mainstream success right from the start or will it only entice the XBR-type of buyer? Will the 50" SXRD steal the growing 50" plasma marketshare?

I don't think Microdisplays can compete with Plasma as Plasma prices drop. The combination of the WOW factor and Flat Panel mountabilty will always make Plasma Formidible in the 50" range. There is no doubt that the SXRD's will be a major success as soon as they're released. The pre-demand that has built up is amazing and only if these sets are not close to the hype that preceeds them can they fail. I'm not so sure that Sony won't find themselves competing against themselves in the Microdisplay arena, though. If the demand for the SXRD's keeps pricing levels at the typical MSRP -10% for high-demand Sony products it's entirely possible the SXRD's could find themselves gathering dust on display floors like all other Microdisplays have been after the initial demand wanes. Sony may be releasing their 2nd Album too soon while their 1st Album is still strong at #1 on the charts. They have absolutely killed off sales for all other microdisplays the past few months with their 3LCD's. They just keep literally flying off the shelves faster than they can be stocked. Unless these "Employee Pricing" - type sales are more than a one time occurance, the consumer may just happily keep taking home 50" A10's at under Two Grand and leave SXRD Sales lagging like every other Microdisplay. These Samsung and Mitsubishi 1080P's will be selling for greatly reduced prices by the holiday season. Toshiba's 1080P line will be marked down almost as soon as they hit the stores, JVC, LG, HP are all rethinking margins and price structure with their new 1080P's. Hitachi just shelved theirs - they just couldn't lower pricing enough without losing money. All these manufacturer's are just hoping to steal some small microdisplay market share but Sony is still gaining market share almost daily. How can you tell Joe Public to buy something else and not go home with another 50" 3LCD for under 2K? You have to get down to that price point AND you have to a product that looks as good OOTB on a display floor with little or no tweaking and no special feeds. Forget this nonsense "well this is a great set once you get it home and have it properly calibrated". Nobody wants to hear that. That's the talk of a loser in this business. The best looking set on the floor that gets you the best bang for the buck is what sells. Sony is already in the process of having the biggest hit in Microdisplay history - by far - on their hands. Who's to say that they won't kill off their own SXRD sales the same way they've killed off all the other microdisplay sales? It'll be an interesting Holiday season from a marketing and Sales viewpoint, for sure. Just some thoughts.

Just some thoughts.Thanks for taking the time to respond. I'm looking forward to this holiday season too. I'm very happy to have ordered the SXRD set, but I'm also excited to see the marketplace making another advance in what is cosidered "the standard" from most manufactures. It will be a difficult time once we start seeing prototype Blu-Ray players temping us.

Please don't take this as a flame but what I don't understand is that if the new A10s "just keep literally flying off the shelves faster than they can be stocked" then why are they being discounted so heavily (as in under $2K)? I would have thought that if they are so popular and in short supply then they would be selling for closer to MSRP. I.e. as in a seller's market.

As far as Sony hurting themselves with the SXRDs and the A10s I don't see that happening as these two products are obviously aimed at different classes of buyer. I mean no insult to any A10 owner but in reading the comments in the A10 threads, I get the feeling that the A10s are so appealing because they are so inexpensive and that many of those buyers would not be able to afford to purchase a $4-5K TV, even if it is a Sony, or may not want to spend that much. So surely the SXRDs are intended as a niche product that fits between their lower-cost, affordable TVs (the A10s at < $2.5K or the A20s at < $3K) and their top-of-line TVs (at $10K+) and not a high-volume seller like the A10s.

There's a lot of truth in what you say. Maybe it's Sony's strategy to just keep gaining market share. They have much lower profit margins with these sets than do their competitors. They have been very successful though with people looking to buy $3K to $5K sets who wind up buying a 3LCD and spending the difference on other components. Or just saving it. I've also heard quite a few tales about someone looking for a $3K-$4K TV walking out with two 3LCDs! They seem to sell themselves. The consumer walks into a Big Box store intending to buy a DLP or a JVC D-ILA, and notices the 3LCD's. He says " gee, this looks nice. It looks as good or better than what i was thinking of getting, i wonder how much it costs?" He sees the price is almost half of what he was thinking of spending, and that's that. Another consumer leaving with a 3LCD. I think competitors are just going to have to get their sets down to around the $2,500 range to steal any market share. I fully expect Samsung and Toshiba 1080P DLP's in the 60" range to be down to that price point by the Holidays. Possibly even Mitsubishi. I don't know if JVC or LG or HP will be able to compete for any increase in Microdisplay market share at that price level and not lose money. Hitachi has already thrown in the towel.

Wow! That Mits is a sharp looking TV if you like black-on-silver (I do).

How do you like my 50" Sony SXRD....

http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphoto.php/photo/16188/size/big/ppuser/7468107

I overlaid a pic of the 50" Sony SXRD over my 50" Samsung DLP as best as I could.
Although it doesn't look like it in the picture the TV and the stand are the same color (its a Sony stand).

Does it look good or not in my limited space? Can't get anything bigger (except maybe a 52" screen to fit).

It looks a bit top heavy, and I would try to get a stand closer to the width of the TV, but it is liveable as-is. As long as you get a set that fits in the recess, you should be OK. In my space, the 60 incher would look like a big man in a little coat (thanks Chris Farley). I could blame this on low WAF, but honestly, even though I want a big TV, I don't want it to look like we've tossed all other considerations to the side to get one. 60 inches is the max width for my space.

Originally Posted by AkaStp
Wow! That Mits is a sharp looking TV if you like black-on-silver (I do).

How do you like my 50" Sony SXRD....

http://gallery.avsforum.com/showpho.../ppuser/7468107

I overlaid a pic of the 50" Sony SXRD over my 50" Samsung DLP as best as I could.
Although it doesn't look like it in the picture the TV and the stand are the same color (its a Sony stand).

Does it look good or not in my limited space? Can't get anything bigger (except maybe a 52" screen to fit).

It looks a bit large, but not a lot. I suspect it's one of those things that would look just fine and you wouldn't even notice after a while.

Surely when comparing Sony LCD RPTV or Qualia or SXRDs to Samsung DLPs. Are you kidding? Is this a joke or something? I'll take one gazeely over twenty of you. At least i get honest, truthful opinions, not Samsung cheerleading nonsense. Jeez! get real


???
Well,i have compared them.
And the Sammy,although not quite as good as the Qual.
Is certainly better than the LCD's i was looking at.
Indeed the new SXRD,s on the way,will get my attention.
But to hear some of the people on here Bash the new Sammys,well. Go look for yourself.
I did a side by side at Magnolia,and the Sammy was the second best to the Qualia,Excellent PQ.
And not by that much. (accept a couple of the Plasmas, they have there).
No axe to grind here,just waiting for the best HD-TV for the money.
And for now,The New Sammy 1080,s are looking good.
And yes,the 1080 was significantly better than the 720,s IMHO.

Plasmas still suck IMNSHO though I sell lots of them. The Qualia 006 blows any and all plasmas away. OK. Who am I to say your precious plasma sucks? Read Joe Kane's column in the 100th issue of Wide Screen Review for just how good he thinks plasmas are. At last he says they are getting better.


How well will the new Sony's sell? The picture quality will clearly beat any plasma just on resolution alone. But will the market which wants hang it on the wall buy RP. The true video cognoti will. But how about your wife?

I was all set to buy the 60SX995, but now I'm all in for an SXRD. I would like to see if the added resolution is discernible from 8-10 feet, but I can't escape the idea that at least they won't be coming out with a higher resolution display, like 2160p, in six months. One less feature to become obsolete. Even if I can't see a difference in resolution, I feel (or hope) the improved contrast will have a significanct impact on PQ ($1000 worth, to be precise).

So now I'm checking out stands. The Sony stand is out because the shelf space is not tall enough by 1/4" for the new Sony 400 disk, upscaling, HDMI DVD player (DVP-CX995V) that I want.

What do you think of this one from BDI? http://www.bdiusa.com/avfurniture/vector.shtml A contemporary look, of course. I think the angled black legs emphasize the black bezel, which in turn balances, or lessens, the impact of the wide speakers (which I like).

I was all set to buy the 60SX995, but now I'm all in for an SXRD. I would like to see if the added resolution is discernible from 8-10 feet, but I can't escape the idea that at least they won't be coming out with a higher resolution display, like 2160p, in six months. One less feature to become obsolete. Even if I can't see a difference in resolution, I feel (or hope) the improved contrast will have a significanct impact on PQ ($1000 worth, to be precise).

So now I'm checking out stands. The Sony stand is out because the shelf space is not tall enough by 1/4" for the new Sony 400 disk, upscaling, HDMI DVD player (DVP-CX995V) that I want.

What do you think of this one from BDI? http://www.bdiusa.com/avfurniture/vector.shtml A contemporary look, of course. I think the angled black legs emphasize the black bezel, which in turn balances, or lessens, the impact of the wide speakers (which I like).

Nice looking stand. Is the top shelf glass? I always get nervous with a glass shelf for the big tv to sit on. Is this easy to put together? I am totally useless when it comes to putting things together.

Does everyone put their components on the shelves under the tv? For me, I dont like the components down by the floor, I dont want to have to bend down so low to put dvd's in (I have bad knees and am a large dude), and in my small room, with a cocktail table in front me, it would block the remote control from aiming at the components. How many use a component rack next to their tv? Thats what i want, and i know it make a real wide system with that 66" tv width plus the rack, but i have width available.

Glass shelf rated to 150 lbs. Don't know about assembly, doubt too hard. 400 disc player avoids having to handle DVD's but once.

Surely when comparing Sony LCD RPTV or Qualia or SXRDs to Samsung DLPs. Are you kidding? Is this a joke or something? I'll take one gazeely over twenty of you. At least i get honest, truthful opinions, not Samsung cheerleading nonsense. Jeez! get real


???
Well,i have compared them.
And the Sammy,although not quite as good as the Qual.
Is certainly better than the LCD's i was looking at.
Indeed the new SXRD,s on the way,will get my attention.
But to hear some of the people on here Bash the new Sammys,well. Go look for yourself.
I did a side by side at Magnolia,and the Sammy was the second best to the Qualia,Excellent PQ.
And not by that much. (accept a couple of the Plasmas, they have there).
No axe to grind here,just waiting for the best HD-TV for the money.
And for now,The New Sammy 1080,s are looking good.
And yes,the 1080 was significantly better than the 720,s IMHO.

I have looked at the 1080P Sammy twice now. Somewhat better than the 720P Sammy IMHO, but didn't even compare to the Panny plasma for overall PQ. Plus I saw the dreaded rainbows. At least the Sony LCD's don't suffer from rainbows. That issue makes the Samsung dead-in-the-water for me.

Surely when comparing Sony LCD RPTV or Qualia or SXRDs to Samsung DLPs. Are you kidding? Is this a joke or something? I'll take one gazeely over twenty of you. At least i get honest, truthful opinions, not Samsung cheerleading nonsense. Jeez! get real


???
Well,i have compared them.
And the Sammy,although not quite as good as the Qual.
Is certainly better than the LCD's i was looking at.
Indeed the new SXRD,s on the way,will get my attention.
But to hear some of the people on here Bash the new Sammys,well. Go look for yourself.
I did a side by side at Magnolia,and the Sammy was the second best to the Qualia,Excellent PQ.
And not by that much. (accept a couple of the Plasmas, they have there).
No axe to grind here,just waiting for the best HD-TV for the money.
And for now,The New Sammy 1080,s are looking good.
And yes,the 1080 was significantly better than the 720,s IMHO.

you should try viewing SD on one of the new Sammy's compared to ANY lcd there and you will find the pic to less than satisfactory....

Alan I just saw the Samsung 1080P sets too and am not impressed. The set is like my older CRT set in that the screen is not evenly lit and there is a sweet spot. Also, the viewing angles from the side are not too good. The Sony LCD is much better in that the screen is evenly lit and have better viewing angles. The Sony A20 set blows away the Samsung 1080P set, imho. The SXRD set boasts a contrast ration of 3k to 1 so I wonder if it will be better then the cirrent crop of LCD RPTV's which I find very acceptable.

Does everyone put their components on the shelves under the tv? How many use a component rack next to their tv?
That's what we're doing. I'm just finishing up on a 60" wide 18 1/2" tall stand for the 60" SXRD. The center channel speaker (Paradigm Ref 570) will go on the shelf below the set and we'll also keep the XBox down there, but everything else will go on a A/V "tower" to the right of the TV. I've got it about 1/2 done so far, but I'm afraid I might have to add another shelf after Uninvited Guest hipped me to another piece of gear I absolutely needed! ;) The A/V tower will stand about 42" tall, unless I need to add a 7th shelf, in which case it'll be about 52" tall...still 6" shorter than the TV on the stand.

BTW, I'm also very leary of putting TVs on glass shelves, despite their weight rating. I've got 4 legs across the front of our stand because the base of the SXRD is so narrow that I felt it needed to be directly supported.

Jason

but I'm afraid I might have to add another shelf after Uninvited Guest hipped me to another piece of gear I absolutely needed! ;)Is the wife calling me a "bad influence" yet? It's usually just a matter of time :D

....Uninvited Guest hipped me to another piece of gear I absolutely needed! ;)

Jason

JASON,

Care to share what this piece of gear you're referring to? :) Thanks.

I obviously like my Samsung DLP but I also had a 55" XS955 for about there weeks and was very close to keeping it as it was a very nice TV. The SDE and the SSE were a little annoying and the picture did seem rather grainy and noisy like you described, but not really bad. My biggest problem was that I kept seeing an SDE-like effect that bugged me (see below*). No problems with fan noise and I was not too concerned about the blacks levels and shadow details as they could be improved to my satisfaction by using some of the advanced picture menu settings and tweaks described in the XS owners thread. A reason for returning it was that my wife felt it was much to big for our space (and so did I to a lesser extent). So I'm glad there is a 50" SXRD because it will fit perfectly in our space.

*My biggest issue with RP-LCDs (not just Sony but also Panasonic, Hitachi and now Mitsubishi) is that I see an SDE-like effect (a grid that is much thicker and more coarsely spaced than regular SDE) during motion or camera movement even from as far back as 10-12' (my normal viewing distance). I know it is not regular SDE because I can't see that (SDE) in still images from more than a few feet back. If I look closely at the screen I can see this SDE-like effect appear during motion or camera movement. I asked about it a few months back and a few people mentioned also being able to see it on their RP-LCDs but most people don't. I find occassional rainbows on DLPs to be less annoying than this effect which keeps steering me any from RP-LCDs. The new Sonys and Mitsubishi RP-LCDs are nice but I keep seeing that effect on them no matter how hard I try not to. It just kinda jumps out at me. So, I've focused mostly on DLPs, especially the 1080p sets, and now the SXRD has appeared and is seriously tempting me.

Yes, I saw that same effect on the XS though from 9.5' I attributed it to SDE, thinking that certain content or movement might make the pixel structure stand out more. I actually only saw it on DVD content, which was running at 480i, so now I wonder if it might've been caused by the de-interlacer somehow. Whatever it was, I've never seen it on any other RPTV I've looked at, including a Samsung DLP, and strangely enough I've never seen it on my parents' 55" WF655 either.

Anyway, I had a chance to do a quick viewing of the Qualia 006 this afternoon (more time to be spent tomorrow) and did not see this effect at all (or regular SDE) so I'm optimistic about the SXRDs. It will be nice not to have to be concerned about SDE or rainbows, etc.

Btw, your "rainbows" on Panny plasmas complaint has just re-surfaced in the Plasmas section of the forum. I've also been considering the 50" Panny Plasma (especially if there is a substantial price drop later this month as rumored) but as I see rainbows on DLPs I would be worried about seeing that effect on the Panny plasma so I'm a bit retiscent.

If DLP rainbows don't bother you, the plasma "rainbows" probably won't either. To me they were less noticable than DLP rainbows but still distracting enough to be bothersome. I think you have to be much more rainbow-sensitive to see them on a plasma than a DLP, hence the relative lack of people seeing them there compared to DLP rainbow reports. It sounds like Sin City is an excellent test DVD for testing out the rainbows though.

Other than a slight horizontal line across the middle of the set where the upper and lower portion of the panel met, which only showed up in extremely rare instances, I had no other complaints with the Panny plasma. I've yet to see a better looking TV, and if it weren't for those damn rainbows I would've happily kept it.

Take a look for yourself.

http://mitsubishi-tv.com/televisions/details.asp?id=195

I only wish Sony had used the time they spent redisgning the lower priced LCD sets (the A10) to redisign the SXRD case instead.

That's a very nice looking design.