Antennas, rotators, boosters/preamps... for wide-band VHF/UHF [Text View] - Page 2

slapshot

03-18-06, 01:30 AM

Looking for some help here.
A few weeks ago I installed a 3020 CM antenna on my roof about 37 miles SW from downtown Chicago. Went well,got all the local digital channels,even the very hard to get CBS (digital channel 3,all others are uhf here) with very rare dropouts on that channel. On my H20 DTV receiver,I was able to get a fairly steady 65-70 signal strength for that one,all others are 90 plus. Now,after coming back from vacation,I get numerous dropouts for that channel only,with the ss varying greatly,sometimes as low as 30 or so. The antenna is running through a 5x8 multiswitch and diplexed. I tested it out today,ran the line straight through from the antenna to the receiver,bypassing switches and diplexers. Still numerous dropouts,no improvement. Any ideas on what it may be? If it was a bad cable,fitting,etc.,wouldn't all channels be affected?
Or possibly a bad transformer up on the antenna? Antenna is fine,no loose or damaged elements. No obstructions from my roof top to the towers downtown. Antenna is properly grounded. We did have a major storm here Sunday night,in which my HR10-250 did not survive,but I'm not sure if it was a result of the storm or not,(hard drive failure) or just a coincidence.

If anyone has any thoughts,I'd appreciate it,otherwise I guess I'll have to start replacing parts one by one.

Tower Guy

03-19-06, 01:41 AM

slapshot

03-19-06, 03:22 PM

Channel 3 is prone to electrical interference. Take a look at channel 2 analog. If you see rows of noisy dots that crawl up the screen that would confirm electrical inteference. I find electrical interference by tuning a car radio to an unused frequency low in the AM band and drive around listening for a loud buzz. When the buzz is the loudest, the source of the interference is nearby.

Also, look for other obvious problems on channel 2 such as ghosting or airplane flutter. Both of those will hurt DTV reception.

Thanks for your help.I didn't think about airplane flutter,that could be a part of it,being under the flight paths of jets coming in to Midway.
Also, just realized there are power lines about half of a mile due ne of me,exactly where I have to point the antenna to the towers downtown. Close enough for them to be a problem on this low VHF frequency?

rca4bg26

03-20-06, 12:20 AM

slapshot

03-21-06, 04:44 PM

I have also experinced problems with directv's H20 off air tuner doesn't seem to be the best built tuner in the world and proved it by using a different tuner (Digital Stream HD1150) in its place. Where the D tuner would not even lock onto the channel the 1150 did just fine, so don't tear your hair out on your antenna install it may be just fine.

Try another tuner if possible first then go after your antenna install.

I agree impulse noise is also a factor and your H20 tuner is already not that great
maybe enough to push it over the edge.

Actually,the H20's are very good at ota reception,it's my HR10's (Tivo) that are having a harder time of it lately on digital channel 3. My old HTL HD receiver that I plugged in just to check couldn't lock on to 3 for anything,whereas the H20's was pretty steady except for the aforementioned dropouts every minute or so.

Audiguy3

03-24-06, 05:53 PM

Excellent review of the Televes DAT-75 HDTV Antenna in April 2006 Sound and Vision

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=1289

milehighmike

03-24-06, 10:51 PM

From A4Short:
Excellent review of the Televes DAT-75 HDTV Antenna in April 2006 Sound and Vision

I really don't mean to criticize your opinion, especially that of a fellow front range resident, but I tend to disagree with you. The review states that the antenna is "designed specifically to capture HD signals". Didn't know there was such a thing. The article also cites a 17 dB gain but the web page link in the article cites a 19 dB gain. Finally, an attic mount was used for the test.

TV Trey

03-25-06, 06:41 PM

The optional MRD was designed to eliminate impulsive noise which can plague certain digitally modulated carriers. Perhaps this is why Televes advertises as "designed for HD signals". Relative to the dB claim,17dBd and 19dBi are basically the same.

holl_ands

03-26-06, 04:26 PM

Televes claims that the stacked triple director design results in vertical nulls in the antenna pattern....
Which may (or may not) be useful in reducing multipath by suppressing the ground bounce signal component.

The $50 MRD (Margin Rising Device) is an awkward name for a UHF-only Preamp (13 dB Gain, 2 dB Noise Figure, 102 dBuV Overload).
Televes claims that it somehow (clipping???) "eliminates the impulsive noise for digital television signal":
http://www.televes.com/hojastecnicas/103182.pdf

The antenna elevation angle must be adjusted so that hopefully (after many hours of hunt and peck), the user can minimize the impulse noise coming in from cars, fluorescent lights, motor brushes arcing over, etc if they happen to be between the transmitter and the antenna:
http://www.televes.com/ingles/asistencia/documentacion/Impulsive%20Noise%20&%20Aerials.pdf

Since Televes is a located in Spain, their claim of reducing impulse noise may be of interest to Europeans, since they use the DVB-T (COFDM) system that is much more susceptible to impulse noise.....as is also their analog PAL (and our analog NTSC) system.

Various laboratory tests have shown that ATSC is relatively immune to impulse noise....which is predominantly a VHF rather than UHF phenemona.

====================================
So is it worth $250 + shipping (incl MRD)????? Yikes!!!!

PS: Televes Gain and F/B numbers appear to be maximum values for the absolute best frequency, rather than average values more commonly encoutered.
The fol. 10 dBd gain (low freqs) to 15 dBd gain (high freqs) simulation results are much more believable:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

See the "Long Range Test" where the DAT-75 was good....but missed two stations that other antenna received.....but none of them were "perfect":
http://www.atechfabrication.com/reception_solutions.htm

If you read the antenna thread you'l find that most on-air comparisons show the DAT-75 to be inferior to other, lower-cost, long Yagis....

And when you're trying an attic location, stations will move back and forth between GOOD and NOGO as you try different locations--and heights in the attic.
Which is where the shorter length of the DAT-75 may prove advantageous.....

AntAltMike

03-26-06, 05:11 PM

The $50 MRD is used to vary the elevation angle on the antenna so that hopefully (after many hours of hunt and peck)...

Various laboratory tests have shown that ATSC is relatively immune to impulse noise....which is predominantly a VHF rather than UHF phenemona.

What's an MRD? A tilter that is supposed to help steer a vertical null into the impulse noise elevation? That would be a real, wishful thinking remedy.

FWIW, I installed the off-air antenna reception array at National Captioning Institute's headquarters in Vienna, Virginia, and we couldn't reliably develop the closed captions from Baltimore's ABC's channel 2 transmitter using either of their discrete decoder boxes (one commercial grade, one residential) even though we had line of site reception and the signal level developed off the cut-to-channel Yagi was well over 10dB, making its S/N ratio measured with respect to the thermal noise floor surely over 70dB, while the Washington ABC channel 7 captioning was rock solid.

I always speculated that the captioning, which is digitally encoded into the vertical blanking pulse, was getting nailed by impulse bursts like the ones that appeared as confetti on the channel 2 pictures. I don't know the history of the implementation of forward error correction, but perhaps either it wasn't in wide use in 1994, or not used in those relatively inexpensive and technologically unsophisticated devices.

holl_ands

03-26-06, 05:33 PM

Initially I thought the MRD was another name for a tiler rising device....until I chased down the Televes links....it's just a Preamp....that normally works with a 240 VAC Power Insertion Module....so it probably requires a 120 VAC Power Insertion Module (like C-M Model 0747).

Which begs the question on how the user is supposed to adjust the elevation angle....I didn't see any adjusters...

Geordon

03-26-06, 05:51 PM

====================================
So is it worth $250 + shipping (incl MRD)????? Yikes!!!!

I think I paid less than $200 for two DAT-75 shipped UPS directly from Televes in Spain. They were under $60 apiece, and shipping is the same for one or two units, so I bought two.

TV Trey

03-27-06, 07:19 AM

FWIW about 2 1/2 years ago i purchase and installed 3 of the DAT-75 antennas, 2 for friends and 1 for myself. I paid $207.55 for all 3 delivered. Since then this antenna has increased in price by 50%, add this to higher shipping rates from Europe and a weaker $ and you have a very expensive antenna. In my experiences the DAT-75 has performed no better than the Winegard's PR-9032 & HD-9095 and only marginally better than the CM's
4228 & 4248 at higher frequencies only.

richard korsgren

04-01-06, 03:35 PM

I bought 2 dat75Televes UHF antennas (from England) some years ago and it has proved to be a wonderful antenna. And it is built very well and looks as good as the day I put it up. It is highly directional. It picks up HD stations from 3 markets, the furthest one about 50 miles..98% perfect all the way. I paid around $160 for 2 delivered. I consider it a bargain at $80. each. It is one of those rare products you buy and forget except when you glance at the roof and notice how nice the antenna looks up there.

Morpheus_Rising

04-11-06, 12:26 PM

Here's my experience (and I need help in choosing a second antenna):

Back in 2004 I started to put together an outdoor antenna system. I put up a 53-foot antenna tower and purchased the

Channel Master 9521A rotor system and two Channel Master 7777 pre-amps. Next, I purchased two long-range antennas, one was

the XG-91 from Antennas Direct,

http://www.antennasdirect.com/91XG_HDTV_antenna.html

UHF antenna, 93" long, 91 elements, and the other was the Radio Shack VU-210XR

http://www.thesourcecc.com/estore/Product.aspx?language=en-CA&catalog=Online&category=Outdoor+Antennas&product=1508227&MSCSProfile=D2A27242FE5C7054CA02D1C573F248CF9A62833809C4B971 591F50C62945480D8CB9E82414C5C0377A26CC1A7EB4F4448EF379A6AAB5 AC073213A49A410E0D23DC85C6974194554FB0FCE09918CD83728270C5A0 FFC9F7AFE5F17E259C8D2CE584C25C15DEA120CED3D53B38BBA4F76EB32A A9E7B9A15B4C8056870605E9D52116C07FA28E88EDCD

VHF / UHF / FM antenna, 190" long, 58 elements.

I had the two pre-amps set to combine both VHF and UHF. I had an underground pvc pipe going from the antenna tower into a basement bedroom to bring all the cables from the antennas to inside the house. At the end of 2004 to the beginning of 2005, I gutted the basement bedroom and it was totally renovated turning it into a computer room / home theater room / bedroom. In July 2005 I bought the MDP-130 HDTV PCI tv tuner card for my pc and hooked it up to the antennas. I used an A/B coaxial switch so I can choose between antenna one (XG-91) or antenna two (VU-210XR). The second coax connector on the tuner card is connected to tv cable.

I live on the Canadian shore of Lake Ontario and my goal was to orient the antennas south so I can catch the HD stations from the US (mainly the Watertown and Syracuse stations). If I could catch stations from other cities, that would be a bonus. I met with success, I was getting 20 or so stations (both analog and digital). Here's a partial list of stations that I was getting:

Watertown:

ABC 50 WWTI (analog 50, and digital D21)
CBS 7 WWNY (analog 07, and digital D35-1)
Fox 28 WWYF (digtal D35-2)
PBS 16 WPBS (analog 16, and digital D41)

Syracuse:

ABC 9 WIXT (WSYR?) (digital D17)
CBS 5 WTVH (digital D47)
FOX 68 WSYT (analog 68, digital D19)
PBS 24 WCNY (analog 24, digital D25 - main channel plus 2 sub-channels)

WB 43 WNYS (analog 43)
PAX 56 WSPX (analog 56) (Independant station)

NBC 3 WSTM (Digital 54) / UPN 6 WSTQ (I was briefly getting this)

Canadian stations:

CTV 13 CJOH (analog 06)
CBC 11 CKWS (analog 11)

----------------------------------

I was briefly getting ABC 13 WHAM (Rochester) at the beginning when I had the antennas pointing north(?). There's a few other stations that I get faintly. I compared the XG-91 antenna with the VU-210XR and I found that the XG-91 antenna was receiving more channels and with better clarity than the VU-210XR. So, I didn't really use the VU-210XR that much at all.

In November 2005 my antennas become stuck pointing North. I called my antenna installer, who told me that the metal mast the the 2 antennas were connected to (that they provided) was being crunched at the bottom. That and the fact that they mounted the rotor above the tower instead of inside it (between the two triangle plates) which would have given extra support for the wind load - means that they had to take down the 2 antennas and redo it (charging me to do it again). Since these guys didn't do it properly the first time I was going to get someone else to do it. Since it was November and the beginning of winter, I decided to wait until April to have it done. Well in mid-March the antenna mast separated from the rotor and was hanging upside down at the top of the tower (still connected by the 2 coax cables). I had someone come in and take down the antennas, unfortunately both antennas were damaged. I need to get 2 new antennas.

I'm getting another XG-91 from Antennas Direct. I have decided not to get another Radio Shack VU-210XR. I'm doing research trying to chose a second antenna. I saw the the DB8 antenna from Antennas Direct:

http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB8_HD_Antenna.html

It's almost as good as the XG-91. With the XG-91, I can get VHF channels 6, 7, and 11 very clear, but channels 2, 3, 5, 8, 9, and 10 are very faintly. So, instead of getting the DB8 antenna, I thought about getting a VHF antenna or low-band VHF antenna. Antenna Direct has the V21 High gain UHF / VHF antenna:

http://www.antennasdirect.com/V21_vhf_antenna.html

and the V4 Low Band VHF antenna:

http://www.antennasdirect.com/V4_antenna.html

I have to check Winegard and a few others for a VHF/FM long range antenna, or a low-band VHF/FM long range antenna.

TV Trey

04-12-06, 10:04 PM

Morpheus_Rising

04-15-06, 01:41 PM

I would try the Winegard Pr-5030 using one of your CM 7777's set for VHF input and your XG-91 with the other CM 7777 set to UHF input. Then combine both antennas together using a Winegard CS-7750. This to be done inside after the CM7777's power supplies. By doing so you can now eliminate your A/B switch.

I looked at Winegard's VHF antennas, the best two are the PR-5030 and the HD-4053P. The PR-5030 is both VHF and FM which is good, but it has a range of 30 miles. The HD-4053P is VHF only (no FM), has a longer range of 50 miles, more elements (24 elements vs the PR-5030's 17 elements) and is shorter in length (111" vs the PR-5030's 119.5"). Of these two, I'm leaning toward the HD-4053P. Between Antenna's Direct V4 and V21 antennas, I'm leaning toward the V21. It seems most antennas are either VHF/UHF antennas or UHF only antennas. There's very few VHF only antennas.

As for the combiner, my system is hardwired inside the wall so I can't use it. I have one of those gray utility boxes in the wall where the underground PVC pipe enters the house bringing the antenna cables in. From there the coax cables goes to another, larger utility box (one for antenna one and a second box for antenna two). The main antenna coax cable enters the box and goes directly to a coax grounding block. From there it goes to the 7777 pre-amp's power supply box and the output of that goes to Channel Master's powered coax distribution box (1 in, 8 out). Those 8 output lines leave the utility box and run in wall to 2 wall outlets. Each outlet has 4 coax lines (with a 4 coax connector wall plate). One outlet is behind my computer desk and the other outlet is behind the TV audio-video table. So I have Antenna one (one outlet, 4 lines) behind my computer desk, a second outlet (4 lines) behind the TV table. The same goes for Antenna two, and the same goes for TV cable. In the end I have 24 coax lines - and it was a major pain stringing all of that inside the walls. That's why I need an A/b switch. For each TV tuner I have a coax cable from the Antenna one wall plate, and another coax cable from the Antenna two wall plate going to the A/B switch with its output coax cable going to the TV tuner. I need an A/B switch for every TV tuner (which is a pain). If I had thought of using a combiner in the planning stages, I could have elminated the A/B switches and had a better system. It's too late now to change it.

While checking out information for VHF antennas, I came across an item that helps with antenna mast wind load. It's called a TB-105 support bearing. I want to order one and last night I did several google searchs for more information and which websites I can order it from. I found very little information on it and about 4 websites that you can order it from. I haven't checked these websites out yet, but they may not shipped to Canada.

DougRuss

04-15-06, 01:50 PM

Few VHF Only Antennas in this Link( maybe you've already seen?):
Stark Electronics (http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm)

The Support Bearing Setup if for use with a Rotor Setup, you can find it here also:

((( CLICK )))) (http://www.starkelectronic.com/rotor.htm#rotor)

Morpheus_Rising

04-15-06, 03:18 PM

Yeah, I checked out Stark Electronics. I would like to order the TB-105 from them, but I don't know if they ship to Canada. :confused:

TV Trey

04-15-06, 04:02 PM

Antennacraft makes several VHF/FM models.

AntAltMike

04-16-06, 12:56 AM

I looked at Winegard's VHF antennas, the best two are the PR-5030 and the HD-4053P. The PR-5030 is both VHF and FM which is good, but it has a range of 30 miles. The HD-4053P is VHF only (no FM), has a longer range of 50 miles, more elements (24 elements vs the PR-5030's 17 elements) and is shorter in length (111" vs the PR-5030's 119.5"). Of these two, I'm leaning toward the HD-4053P. Between Antenna's Direct V4 and V21 antennas, I'm leaning toward the V21. It seems most antennas are either VHF/UHF antennas or UHF only antennas. There's very few VHF only antennas.

Take the milage figures with a grain of salt. The Winegard HD-4053 has about 2dB more gain than the 5030. They can both work at 100 miles if the terrain is flat, or fail at 30 miles if the line-of-sight is severely obstructed. The gain of your old Radio Shack 210 was probably somewhere in between the two.

Do you know if your lowband VHF analog stations will be moving their digital transmissions down to lowband when the transition is complete? If not, then you should consider a Blonder Tongue BTY-LP-HB for channels 7-13. . If you do need the lowband channels as well, you should consider Blonder Tongue's BTY-LP-BB. Solid Signal has them for about $280 and $380, respectively. I found them listed for less than that at a few websites, but they appeared to be commercial distributors who might not sell them retail. You'd have to check, yourself.

If I recall correctly, the BTY-LP-BB has a flat gain of about 9dB over isotropic, and the BTY-LP-HB might be up around 12 or 13dB of gain, but Blonder-Tongue gain figures are honest figures, their antennas are rugged as hell, and contrary to the implications of some of their published specs, the BB model is "flat" over the entire band from 54 to 216Mz, including FM.

I'm not sure about this, but I think elements used in the Winegard HD series antennas are maybe two gauges thicker than in the PR series. You might call Winegard to try to confirm this. If they are thicker, that would be reason enough to favor the HD series for an antenna going up on a tower.

The HD series also uses a more reliable element locking attachment and in fact, I have to reset a lot of elements on PR-series VHF antennas when the wind "unlatches" the rear elements. If they blow forward and touch a few elements ahead of them, they screw up the lowband reception severely.

How close are your nearest, full powered stations? If they are more than 20 miles away, you could benefit by putting a low-gain preamp right near the antenna, but if any are nearby, you might need to notch down the offending channel, which does take a little expertise.

Morpheus_Rising

04-17-06, 07:54 PM

My top 2 choices are: the HD-4053P from Winegard, and the V21 from Antennas Direct. I sent Antennas Direct an email asking questions about the V21 and V4 and I got the response today.

"The V21 is a VHF/UHF antenna has 11 UHF elements and 10 VHF elements and can do (/should do) FM. The V21 has relatively high gain on the VHF band, it is not as effective on the UHF band. In receiving UHF it is only effective for up to about 25 miles; on VHF, 65 miles."

I was going to send Winegard an email about the HD-4053P. I did a google search for the Blonder Tongue's BTY-LP-BB. I found the Manufacturer's website (the only info they had was a pdf file on all their antennas). It looks like an interesting VHF antenna, I like they way that you can take another UHF antenna and mount it on the front of the BTY-LP-BB, turnning it into a VHF/UHF combo antenna. With the google search, I could find very little else on the BTY-LP-BB. No reviews, no other information, just about 3 websites that sell it ($345-$400US), which it expensive! I have no idea what its range is.

I checked AntennaCraft's website and found one VHF antenna that I liked, the CS1100. The stats are: 42 Elements, 180" Boom Length, and Extreme Deep Fringe (100+ Miles):

http://www.antennacraft.net/CS.htm

It's very large at 180" (my Radio Shack antenna is 190" long). I preferred to get something smaller, around 120", so maybe the next antenna down, the CS900? These have the highest number of elements for a VHF antenna that I've seen. However, I have heard that AntennaCraft makes the Radio Shack antennas. I was not very impressed with the quality or performance of my Radio Shack antenna. (Also on a strong windy day, I had 3 of the large elements at the back of the antenna were pushed forward which meant getting someone to climb the tower and swing the elements back into place and relock.) So, I'm not sure about getting anything from AntennaCraft.

MAX HD

04-17-06, 08:22 PM

Morpheus_Rising

04-18-06, 12:24 AM

Do you really need Low-band 2-6?

Yes I do. I'm getting another XG-91 UHF antenna from Antennas Direct and I want a VHF (2-13) antenna for my second antenna.

TV Trey

04-18-06, 07:22 AM

Did you look at the Antennacraft 3BG22? It is a heavier duty antenna and also smaller in size. As far as Antennacraft making antennas for RS, you must keep in mind that the product is made to RS's specifications. Finally if you are not concerned about price, then Kathrien-Scala also makes an antenna for channels 2-13.

Larry Crowell

04-21-06, 08:30 PM

Does anyone know if I can use a combiner to combine the signal of two digital/HD antennas? I've used one in the past on analog signals but I'd like to get my signal up closer to 100% and thought I might give a this a try.I'm no expert in this area but I'll tell you what has worked for me. I combined two RS 15-624 indoor UHF antennas, stacked vertically. Each is a dual bow-tie with a reflector, about 12" square. They have 300ohm twinlead though I don't know what their actual impedance is. First experiment: I connected each to a 300/75 converter and then into a signal splitter/combiner. This worked seemingly OK and was polarity sensitive, though not as much as I expected. Second experiment: I connected both antennas to the same 300/75 converter (accepting the impedance mismatch) and then directly to the coax line. This worked even better and was definitely polarity sensitive. Conclusions: Simpler is better, so I stayed with the second experiment. This is probably a very special case as the antennas were identical and the twinlead lengths were the same. I don't think the impedance mismatch mattered too much. Also, I don't think there is such a thing as a digital/HD antenna. They are simply just plain old UHF antennas.

Morpheus_Rising

04-24-06, 01:20 PM

I liked AntennaCraft's CS1100 antenna, however because of its size, it is not UPS shippable. I have decided not to get that one. So the next one down is the CS900 (120" long, 33 elements, range 80-90 miles). I then checked Wade-Antenna and looked at the VIP-306SR (148.5" long) and the VIP-307SR (194" long).

http://www.wade-antenna.com/VHF-FMantennas.htm

However, after checking all over their website, there is almost no information on these 2 antennas (just what is listed on the link above). Also it looks like you can't order from them directly, you have to find a dealer. I need to do more reading on these 2 antennas and find where I can order them from.

So, I have it down to these 3 antennas. The AntennaCraft CS900, I can order that one from a website/company in BC. As for the 2 Wade antennas, there right here in Ontario, so I'm hoping I can order them from someplace in Ontario.

Johnnycanal

04-24-06, 08:28 PM

So tonight when I came home my OTA setup on my D* H20 seems to have no signal...

I have a CM4338 bowtie up on a pole mounted to the gable end of the house. On Saturday I was getting 85% to 100% on the Baltimore stations 40 miles distant. I have a CM pre-amp, the CM7775. I switched to this from the Motorola I picked up at my local Circuit City.

Everything has worked great till now and I am stumped. :confused:

I unplugged the CM4338 and used the Terk set top hdtv antenna and picked up a signal so I am pretty sure its not the D* H20.

Could the pre-amp have failed?? Thanks, Sean

arxaw

05-06-06, 11:58 PM

...Could the pre-amp have failed?? Thanks, Sean
Yes, it could have failed. They are susceptible to surges, etc.

Is your coax and CM 4228 antenna grounded to the main electrical power ground for your house? It should be.

Johnnycanal

05-07-06, 07:46 AM

Yes, it could have failed. They are susceptible to surges, etc.

Is your coax and CM 4228 antenna grounded to the main electrical power ground for your house? It should be.

ground the coax and antenna??

:rolleyes:

yeah I have been meaning to do that... I actually am. Believe it or not there is no ground that I could find yet for this old house (160 years more or less)... I need to go and buy a rod and put it in myself...

Actually I found that it had corroded at the coax connection to the preamp. I plan on opening that box and seeing if I can fix or clean or replace the connection...

For right now I have my backup Motorola working. Not as good but works.

AntAltMike

05-07-06, 11:42 AM

The NEC requires that you ground both the antenna mast and the coax downlead as near as possible to the point at which it enters the building, and these grounds must be either directly connected to what is referred to as the ground electrode system or bonded to it. You can't just pound in a ground rod and ground to that.

Somewhere around here there are links to FAQs regarding the proper implementation of ground connections in conformity with the NEC.

That having been said, the likelihood that your preamp or electronics were damages by a surge that would otherwise have been suppressed by a conforming ground are slim at best.

A corroded preamp connection is a likely cause of your problem. If you have more time than money on your hands, and if you have an ammeter available, you can check to see if the preamp is drawing any current. I'd expect a working preamp to draw about 200 milliamps, but it will vary. Some draw less. Even if it is not drawing current, that won't tell you whether it is failing because of an open in the circuit or because the preamp has failed.

arxaw

05-07-06, 11:55 AM

... the likelihood that your preamp or electronics were damages by a surge that would otherwise have been suppressed by a conforming ground are slim at best.
Good point, AntAltMike, and I can see where my post may have looked like I though that's what caused the amp problem.

I was just curious if the antenna mast & coax were properly grounded, because the OP mentioned other things about grounding that made me think the D* installation might not have been done to code.

greywolf

05-07-06, 12:06 PM

Some links I keep in an old file include the following. There may be some that have died of old age. Always check local codes as they may differ from the NEC.

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/GB-HTML/HTML/GroundingSatelliteDishandLead-InCables~20020303.htm

http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Installation/Grounding.htm

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3618667#post3618667

AVSforum member Signal posted the following helpful sites. Dish and antenna masts have the same grounding requirements.

National Electrical Code - Search for "dish" http://forums.nfpa.org:8081/necfaq/necsrch.htm

The information there also applies to antenna grounding. In the 2002 code update, if a water pipe is used, it must be all metal and connected to the electrical panel within 5ft of where the pipe enters the building. The connection to the pipe from the lightning arrestor/ground block and from the antenna/dish mast must also be within 5ft of the pipe's entry.

Preventing Damage Due to Ground Potential Difference
http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm

PSIHQ - Grounding Requirements
http://www.psihq.com/iread/strpgrnd.htm

PolyPhaser Technical Information
http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_technical.asp

Tower Page - see N1LO's GUYED TOWER TOPIC SUMMARY
http://www.qsl.net/n1lo/tower.htm

Youngblood

05-24-06, 08:01 AM

If you want to spend time and money improving your signal reliability, spend it on the antenna, the mast, the preamplifier or the aiming.

I do agree for that comment. :)

roguepirate

05-24-06, 11:33 AM

Hello everybody i just got my HD tv and am looking for an indoor antenna (i'm unable to mount an outdoor one) that works well. I recently tried the Terk HDTVi and that did not work well at all. I can get certain channels but it was really suceptible to interference from people walking in the room and it didn't really lock in any channels.

The television is on the 2nd floor, and the window facing east.
Zip Code: 91789
Height: 685 feet

any help or suggestions are well appreciated, thanks.

AntAltMike

05-24-06, 11:46 AM

Thanks Youngblood, looks like a cool accessory, added it in the list @ start of thread. ;)

I am surely the largest customer of signal filters here, since I install multi-antenna arrays for large buildings, so I went to the opening post to see just what filtering product was being added to the list, but all I found was a link to the seller of some cheap, high-pass filters that are used to steal PPV programming from the cable companies. $45 for the standard model and $60 for the HDTV model. Last I checked, comparable filters were available on eBay for about $5 each....

Is there any legal use for this product?

markrubin

05-24-06, 01:19 PM

Moderator

please do not discuss or link to any devices intended to steal cable services: it violates AVS rules and is certainly illegal

posts will be edited/deleted

Thank you

RayL Jr.

05-24-06, 05:33 PM

OK, links out...

HD74

05-26-06, 11:21 AM

After several years of testing various tuners and antennas, I wandered into best buy last week, and saw a Sylvania STB, I got it, it came with an indoor amplified antenna, that worked OK. There was also a jack for a "smart antenna". I decided to try it. Best Buy doesn't carry it, found it at sams club(?). I set it up in my office last week. I am quite surprised at the performance of this omni-mast mount antenna. It has 16 lobes in it and remembers where the best signal is for each channel. Reception from the heart of Lansing includes all locals, plus Ann Arbor, Flint, and Grand Rapids. Hands down better than any omni I have tried in the past. :D

Geordon

05-26-06, 12:34 PM

found it at sams club(?). I set it up in my office last week. I am quite surprised at the performance of this omni-mast mount antenna. It has 16 lobes in it and remembers where the best signal is for each channel. Reception from the heart of Lansing includes all locals, plus Ann Arbor, Flint, and Grand Rapids. Hands down better than any omni I have tried in the past. :D

Can you give more specifics as to what to look for at Sam's Club? Was it at Edgewood, or East Town Centre? I am in Mason, and my Dat75 works great for K'zoo, G.R., Flint, and most Lansing, except WILX, which is spotty on my Fusion5 and no signal on my Panny Plasma.

holl_ands

05-26-06, 08:48 PM

You must mean the DTA-5000 Smart Antenna (by DX ANTENNA aka Funai/Sylvania/Sharp)
with the Sylvania 6900DTE OTA STB (aka Funai STB-400E),
which is thus far the one and only OTA Receiver with Smart Antenna interface:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5826625&highlight=dta3500+antenna#post5826625
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5979741&highlight=dta5000#post5979741
See above link for comparison test--it fared about the same as a larger 4-Bay antenna with Preamp,
and was eventually beat out by the 8-Bay CM4228 with Preamp.

Apparently it only performs the antenna adaptation process when you command it to,
so every few days I have to command it to repeat the entire process (15-20 minutes).
It's in dire need of a "Readapt Current Channel" command.

Here's SamsClub link to OTA STB:
http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=330411
and Smart Antenna
http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=170730

===========================================
PS: Since the Smart Antenna MUST receive controls from the STB, it WILL NOT work with any other OTA Receiver.
However, DX ANTENNA also makes the DTA-3500 which has some sort of manual controls:
http://www.dxantenna.co.jp/english/products/products.html
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=DTA3500&xzoom=zoomB#xview
http://www.amazon.com/Sharp-DTA-3500-Definition-multidirectional-Amplified/dp/B00022O9VW/

HD74

05-30-06, 10:11 AM

Antenna was only available from sams club online. (and several other online shops, but more$$$) I have not had to re-set it since I installed it, don't know why you would have to. It only works with a STB that has a smart antenna jack, (kind of a goofy looking RJ-45) I'm using a Sylvania receiver which is the only one I've seen so far with the jack.

Morpheus_Rising

06-04-06, 03:05 PM

Here's my Update: I bought another copy of Antenna's Direct XG-91 (UHF) antenna and I got Wade-Antenna'a VIP-307SR VHS/FM antenna. I also got the TB-105 Support Bearing (very hard to get).

I was planning on using a 2" metal pipe for the antenna mast and when I got the TB-105, I found out the hole for the antenna mast is 1.5" (4.0 cm). So, I went to Home Depot, Rona, and a local hardware store looking for a 1.5" OD x 10 foot long pipe to use for the antenna mast. At the local hardware store, I was talking to a staff member about the metal pipes, and when I told him I needed it for an antenna mast, he told me it won't work, there not strong enough and after awhile, the metal pipe would bend. (This is what happened to me the first time). He told me that I needed a specialized metal pipe (galvanized) made specifically for antennas and recomended I go to Radio Shack, Delphi, or this other company. I checked The Source:

http://www.thesourcecc.com/estore/Product.aspx?language=en-CA&catalog=Online&category=Tower+%26+Antenna+Access.&product=1508017

Radio Shack:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062034&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032207&pg=4&parentPage=family

Channel Master:

http://www.channelmaster.com/pages/TVS/MountsHrdwr.htm

Channel Master has 2: Dura-Tube model 1617 - 10 feet long, 1.5", 16 guage

Super Mast model 1615 - 10 feet long, 1.5", 16 guage

and finally Wade-Antenna:

http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/toweraccess.htm

1.50/16g/10's Galvanized 1.50", 16 Gauge, 10 Foot Swaged

I'm having a hard time figuring this out. I have 3 questions:

1) the gauge - I'm assuming it is like copper wire, the lower the number, the higher the thickness (ie a 16 guage metal tube is thicker than an 18 or 20 guage.

2) the coating - some are galvanized (from what I have read it is a coating, zinc, that helps to prevent rust.) Some are "pre-galvanized" (I don't know what that means) and some are "hot-dip galvanized" (I don't know what that is).

The Channel Master Dura-Tube has a double powder coat painted overcoat. The Channel Master Supermast is pre-galvanized / hot-dip galvanized.

The Wade-Antenna's mast is "Induction welded, galvanized coating / "Pre-Galvanized".

I'm not sure what is the best coating to get.

3) Finally, The Channel Master and Wade-Antenna masts are "Swaged". I'm not sure what this means.

Once I get these questions answered, I can pick an antenna mast, order it, and then I can contact an installer and have my antenna up.

TotallyPreWired

06-04-06, 04:18 PM

He told me that I needed a specialized metal pipe (galvanized) made specifically for antennas and recomended I go to Radio Shack, Delphi, or this other company.
Specialized, dogmeat! Call a chain link fence supply house. They should have galvy pipes of various diameters and thicknesses. They work like a champ. I've got a short tower with a heavy antenna(Winegard 8200) and high winds. So far, in 4 years, it's still up there taking the abuse!
....jc

bobchase

06-05-06, 12:39 PM

I'm having a hard time figuring this out. I have 3 questions:

1) the gauge - I'm assuming it is like copper wire, the lower the number, the higher the thickness (ie a 16 guage metal tube is thicker than an 18 or 20 guage.
2) the coating - some are galvanized (from what I have read it is a coating, zinc, that helps to prevent rust.) Some are "pre-galvanized" (I don't know what that means) and some are "hot-dip galvanized" (I don't know what that is).
The Channel Master Dura-Tube has a double powder coat painted overcoat. The Channel Master Supermast is pre-galvanized / hot-dip galvanized.
The Wade-Antenna's mast is "Induction welded, galvanized coating / "Pre-Galvanized".
I'm not sure what is the best coating to get.
3) Finally, The Channel Master and Wade-Antenna masts are "Swaged". I'm not sure what this means.
Once I get these questions answered, I can pick an antenna mast, order it, and then I can contact an installer and have my antenna up.
Morpheous,

1 - The gauge is a measure of wall thickness. Your are correct in your assumption that smaller gauge is thicker material.
2 - Coatings. Galvanized is a form of rust prevention. Pre-galvanized tubing is made from galvanized sheet material that is rolled into a tube and welded. Hot-dipped galvanization is a process where the final product is dropped into a galvanization bath and then removed to dry. This coats the inside, the outside, and the welds with galvanized material. The latter is better but be wary of marketing claims - not everything is as it seems, epecially with consumer products.
3 - Swaged is a crimping process where the outside diameter of the tube is reduced. In this case, so that it will just fit inside another tube. This allows you to 'stack' the tubing to reach greater hights. However, if you do this, each section should have at least one support. For instance a three section stack on the side of the house should have at least three side-mounts attaching the stack to the house.

Both the hardware guys and Totallyprewired are correct, each in their own way. The metal used for antenna masts is stronger. However, as Totallyprewired said, many people use galvanized water pipe for a mast and it works well for them.

1" water pipe is the largest size of galvanized pipe that you can use with a 1.5" opening. If you need more than 10' of pipe, try to find a 20' length of water pipe rather than use a threaded coupling. The pipes bending strength is significantly reduced in the threaded portion.

If you are using a tripod mount, then mount the rotor low (just above the tripod) and the bearing high (just below the lower antenna). The double run of pipe will resist bending better than a single one.

If you are using a guyed installation, again, keep the bearing a high as possible. The less unsupported mast you have, the better off you are. This is particularly true in your situation because of the double antenna stack.

Bob Chase

pclement

06-09-06, 04:00 PM

Morpheus_Rising

06-09-06, 05:47 PM

Not sure what you mean. I did a google search "Channel Master 7777" and just on the first page there are 3 companies selling them. I have 2 of them on my antenna mast (which was banged up and I had to take it down. Both antennas were damaged.) I'm hoping the pre-amps were not damaged from the banging and still work. I won't find out untill I have my new antennas put up.

holl_ands

06-09-06, 06:16 PM

Does anyone know why there aren't any Channel Master 7777 Pre-amplifiers available? None of the stores (brick and mortar or e-tail) seem to have them in stock. Lighting took out my amplifier last week and I can not find another one.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
You didn't say where you were located....suggest you put it in your profile.
Call around to local antenna installers and ask them....

Or do what most everyone else does--order online....

mdrums

06-09-06, 09:57 PM

mdrums

06-10-06, 09:32 AM

Rick it is 33572.

holl_ands

06-10-06, 06:55 PM

Antennaweb.org results for that zipcode (your specific location may be slightly different):

* yellow - uhf WUSF-DT 16.1 PBS TAMPA FL 61° 10.1 34
* yellow - uhf WTOG-DT 44.1UPN ST. PETERSBURG FL 61° 10.1 59
* yellow - uhf WTSP-DT 10.1 CBS ST. PETERSBURG FL 326° 36.0 24
* yellow - uhf WTTA-DT 38.1 WB ST. PETERSBURG FL 63° 9.9 57
* yellow - vhf WTVT-DT 13.1 FOX TAMPA FL 75° 10.5 12
* yellow - uhf WXPX-DT 66.1 i BRADENTON FL 72° 9.3 42
* yellow - uhf WWSB-DT 52.1 ABC SARASOTA FL 174° 15.0 52
* yellow - uhf WMOR-DT 32.1 IND LAKELAND FL 72° 9.3 19
* yellow - uhf WFTS-DT 28.1 ABC TAMPA FL 63° 9.9 29
* yellow - uhf WEDU-DT 3.1 PBS TAMPA FL 61° 10.1 54
* yellow - uhf WCLF-DT 22.1 CTN CLEARWATER FL 72° 9.3 21
* yellow - uhf WFTT-DT 50.1 TFA TAMPA FL 63° 9.9 47
* yellow - vhf WFLA-DT 8.1 NBC TAMPA FL 63° 9.9 7
* lt green - uhf WVEA-DT 25.1 UNI VENICE FL 72° 9.3 25

The REAL VHF/UHF channel in the last column.
First, lets assume you don't need duplicate ABC from SARASOTA, eliminating this oddball THIRD direction.

Of course, mounting the antenna much higher should help--
Although it may be difficult to avoid blockage from nearby buildings, trees, hills,...
You didn't say whether you had any particular signal blockage problems...

Note that NBC is on CH7 and although only 10 miles away, requires at least a minimal amount of VHF gain in that direction.
[Probably explains why Stealth was better than "round" omnidirectional (C-M SmartAntenna?]

All UHF DTV stations are from a fairly narrow azimuth (61-75 degrees),
except CBS which is at 326 degrees and a distant 36 miles away.

Unfortunately, most moderate gain antenna upgrades will have great difficulty receiving stations at right angles from each other...

It is possible that a low gain Preamp (like the HDP-269) will improve your distant reception for CBS.
But since you are only 10 miles away, overload is likely to prevent reception of CBS.
This may also be the case if you are currently using an ampified antenna.
Suggest you query your local Miami forum on what other's are using...

A small-moderate unamplified VHF/UHF combo antenna may be a reasonable choice for pointing toward about 72 degrees,
combined with a second UHF-only antenna (e.g. CM4221) pointed toward 326 degrees (and may or may not need a Preamp).

rgathright

06-12-06, 12:50 PM

Geordon

06-12-06, 01:02 PM

When I pre-wired my new house I had not idea I could pull in other Cities OTA- HD if I moved my antenna. Now I wished I wired in for a rotor.

Are there any wireless rotors that will receive the signal through my sheetrock ceiling from the living room directly below the antenna?

I would think it wouldn't be that hard to climb into the attic and fish the controller wire down an inside wall so you can have the controller plugged in in your living room. Two benefits -- no power required in the attic, and you can read the current orientation. Drill a 1/4" in the top of the stud wall, and feed the wire down the wall, then make a hole near the floor to pull the wire out. A wire "fish line" may also be helpful.

rgathright

06-12-06, 01:04 PM

Thought about, but the one problem is my walls are 10' tall, so there is an additional block between the studs that has to be drilled also. May still be the best option.

holl_ands

06-12-06, 02:40 PM

Channel Master's 9521A Rotator uses IR for R/C:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=03&CAT=&PROD=MTRTR200
Channel Master website claims the controller is compatibile with a variety of different
Rotators if you want to use an existing/compatible Rotator.

You can mount the controller in the attic using a Wireless Remote Control Extender:
http://www.solidsignal.com/search_results.asp?main_cat=0&search_crit=remote+extender&xfermeth=directg&gclid=CMfS0ba2wYUCFS1fDgod9Fn_uQ
http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Order/Accessories/Remote-Control-extenders.htm
http://www.shop.com/op/~LeapFrog_Wireless_Remote_Control_Extender-prod-22450852-30395537?sourceid=298

AntAltMike

06-12-06, 04:44 PM

Or you can always wait for Winegard to release its rotor that shares the coax downlead for rotation and indexing...

rgathright

06-12-06, 05:24 PM

Or you can always wait for Winegard to release its rotor that shares the coax downlead for rotation and indexing...

Any idea when this product will come out?

AntAltMike

06-12-06, 05:53 PM

Any idea when this product will come out?

Last I heard, three year ago.

holl_ands

06-12-06, 07:23 PM

Here are user reviews on the X10 Powermid vs R-S and Terk/Leapfrog products:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00023KG40/002-1542287-7520852?v=glance&n=172282
Despite the name, it also uses wireless RF signal.

Although I couldn't find one, there should be IR Extenders that work via AC powerline for locations where a wireless
signal would have problems penetrating. Best I could find was combined with a Video Extender over CAT5 cable.

For info re Extenders, suggest searching Home Theater and Remote Control threads.

Phantom Gremlin

06-13-06, 03:31 AM

Last I heard, three year ago.

Whenever I read about long delays in such simple products, I think of the Far Side cartoon about the dog scientists struggling to understand The Doorknob Principle:

http://www.jhrc.ul.ie/ciandavis/im/door.gif

SRO Dave

06-15-06, 09:51 PM

[QUOTE=pclement]Does anyone know why there aren't any Channel Master 7777 Pre-amplifiers available? None of the stores (brick and mortar or e-tail) seem to have them in stock. Lighting took out my amplifier last week and I can not find another one.

[QUOTE]

I don't know myself but mine has been on backorder since 5/2/06. When I called Warren Electronics, they tell me that Channel Master keeps pushing back the shipping date.

May be due to SMD shortage from oversea supplier.

pclement

06-16-06, 12:48 PM

SRO Dave:

You understand what I was saying about their availability. However, I ordered one from Solid Signal and it is being delivered to my home today (UPS Tracker). Solid Signal may not have any more as they had previously put mine on backorder and said that they were only getting a few units is. Availability is very hit or miss with the e-merchants. I let you know how it works.

pclement

07-06-06, 01:07 PM

I recently installed a CM 7777 with my setup. Distance to towers varies (12 to 60 miles from three directions), but averages around 40 miles (the 12 miles is a low power station).

Without the CM 7777 I was getting signal strengths of 50 to 93 (In the basement, I was using a CM quad output distribution amplifier of 23 db to boost the signal at 8db per output).

With the CM 7777 installed my signal strength dropped significantly 0 to 70 with many signals lost. I removed the distribution amplifier and the signals with just the CM 7777 improved to 70 to 100. I have the power unit for the CM 7777 in the basement and have the output signal going to a dual output splitter (not a diplexer). Each output goes to a diplexer where the antennae signal is combined with my DirecTV signal (Please note that I have a Phase III DirecTV system. I understand that the AT9 (MPEG 4)system does not allow the signals to be combined.). I use a single RG6 to convey the signal to each of my H10 receivers where I again use diplexers to split the antennae signals from the DirecTV signals. This seems to work very well.There is such a thing as too much gain with the digital signals.

When I moved the power unit for the CM 7777 closer to the antennae, I was able to use the CM quad distributor with no loss in signal (but no gain either). This does allow for four outputs with no signal loss.

I am able to get Baltimore, MD, Washington, DC and Harrisburg, PA signals for ABC (except in PA), CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS, UPN (MyTV), WBN and a couple of independent channels. All in all about twenty stations (about 45 channels counting subchannels).

I do sometimes get stations farther away, but not on a regular bassis.

I am very pleased with the performance of the CM 7777 and would recommend it for use in fringe areas. I do not really need the distribution amplifier, but it does allow me to output to more TVs.

Morpheus_Rising

07-09-06, 07:30 PM

Well, I finally got my antenna mast. It's from Wade-Antenna, 1.5" OD, 16G x10 feet long, with the swagged end. What I don't understand is why the make antenna masts so thin? The thickness of the metal tube is about 1mm. I find this is too thin (it's the same thickness as my old antenna mast which had gotten crunched at the bottom where it was attached to the rotor) - it should be about 3mm thick (about 1/8") , that would make it stronger.

This is why I bought the TB-105 Support Bearing - to add extra support to the antenna mast. Which goes into another problem I had. I took the TB-105 support bearing from the box and tried to slide it onto the bottom of the antenna mast, and it would only go about 1.5" into the support bearing before stopping (halfway through). The reason was that inside the short tube part of the support bearing, in the middle was some excess metal that was bulging out, preventing the antenna mast from continuing. I had to get a rounded file and some sandpaper and file it down to remove it (it took about 30 minutes) so that the support bearing can slide through the antenna mast. I'm not sure if this is going to cause a problem since the filing/sanding has removed some of the coating.

Now all I have to do is figure out the spacing of the antenna mast (where the parts are going to go and the spacing in-between the parts). What I have worked out now is - the bottom 6-8" of the antenna mast is going to be connected to the rotor. About 2 feet, 4" above that at the 3 foot mark is where the TB-105 Support Bearing is going to go. This would leave 7 feet of antenna mast above it. Next one foot space then the two Channel Master 7777 pre-amps and then another one foot of space above that. At the 5 foot level (2 feet above the support bearing), the Wade-Antenna VIP-307SR VHF/FM antenna would be mounted (6" thick). This would leave 4.5 feet left, with the Antenna's Direct 91-XG UHF antenna mounted 4 feet above the Wade-Antenna, leaving 6" left on the antenna mast.

I'm pretty sure someone stated that you should leave a space of 4 feet between antennas. Can anyone confirm this? I have decided not to use metal guy wire for the TB-105 Support Bearing for 2 reasons: 1) it causes interference with the antennas and you should have a minmum of 4 feet between the guy wire and the antenna, and 2) the 2 coax-downlead cables from the pre-amps have to be able to move around when the antennas rotate and the guy wires would be in the way. I'm open to advice on how to improve the spacing of the components on the antenna mast. ;)

AntAltMike

07-09-06, 09:22 PM

Three feet between the UHF and VHF booms is plenty. The distance needed is really determined by the antenna with the shorter wavelength. I always like to have 5 feet between two low band antennas on the same mast, and two and a half to three feet for VHF high band, and I never even give a hoot about spacing betweeh the UHFs, because unless I am using Blonder Tongue Yagis without corner reflectors, it would be physically impossible to get them too close together.

Put the UHF antenna at the top of the mast. Put the VHF three feet below it. Mount the two pre-amps between them. Set the bearing within a foot of the VHF boom, so the VHF is no more than one foot above it and the UHF four feet above the bearing and three feet above the VHF. You can even reduce that distance to half a foot if you'd like. Then, the rotor winds up wherever it winds up. Either six feet from the bearing if you leave your 10 foot rotating section intact, or a little closer if you prefer to trim it. The objective is to minimize the leverage that the rotating section has on the rest of the system.

mattdp

07-09-06, 09:52 PM

Winegard releasing a rotator? Will it have any advantages over the CM models? Will it have a nifty little Remote control and microscopic sized controller like the new CM models?

AntAltMike

07-09-06, 11:14 PM

Winegard releasing a rotator?

Godot ain't comin' See post #316, above.

spainman

07-19-06, 04:06 PM

Hi, I am in zip code 35242 and need to install an OTA in my attic. I would appreciate any suggestions as to type and whether or not a preamp is advised.

Thanks

holl_ands

07-19-06, 07:30 PM

Hi, I am in zip code 35242 and need to install an OTA in my attic. I would appreciate any suggestions as to type and whether or not a preamp is advised.

Thanks
You should repost in the ANTENNA thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8037351#post8037351

jrnoel

07-20-06, 10:30 PM

Anyone here use a diplexer? I am having dish network with the hd package hooked up sunday and was going to hook up an ota, for my locals in hd, to the satilite cable with a diplexer. Is there any loss of picture quality for either the satilite or the ota? Is there any difference in different brands of diplexers? Are all diplexers for hd? I didn't want to run a seperate cable from my ota, cm 4228 in the attic, but if it makes a big difference then I may.

milehighmike

07-21-06, 11:19 PM

I use a diplexer on one of my three E* satellite feeds because I had only only cable in the wall and I can't fish another one due to a plant shelf with open space above it to the ceiling. I have the Dish 1000. I honestly cannot see a difference between the diplexed feed and the other two TV's that I have separate satellite and OTA lines running to. I bought the diplexers at Radio Shack. I think they were about $20 each and you need one at each end. Make sure you get the ones that pass DC for the satellite feed.

jrnoel

07-28-06, 10:38 PM

I am receiving my locals with my ota. The signal strength on most channels is 70-80%. What is a good, (cheap) preamp or signal booster that would help my reception. My antenna is a cm 4228 that is in my attic.

SEMIJim

07-29-06, 08:11 AM

Somebody here recommended this: Winegard HDP-269 pre-amp (http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/hdp269.htm)

Why do you think you need it? Are (some of) your stations not solid?

70-80% signal strength means absolutely nothing. What's 70-80% for you could be 60-70% for somebody else and 90-95% for another person. So-called "signal strength" meters are no more than a relative measure of signal strength for a given receiver model.

Btw: "Good" and "cheap" are more often than not mutually exclusive.

jrnoel

07-29-06, 11:19 AM

I will lose my signal for a few seconds sometimes. A every so often the picture will get pixely. Would the preamp help this?

jtbell

07-29-06, 01:23 PM

SSo-called "signal strength" meters are no more than a relative measure of signal strength for a given receiver model.

They don't even measure signal strength as such. They're actually a measure of signal quality, perhaps obtained from error-correction rates in the decoding process. Insert a variable attenuator in the antenna cable. As you turn the knob and increase the attenuation (reducing the signal strength), the reading on the meter will probably stay more or less constant for a while, then start to drop rapidly. Pretty soon thereafter the picture will pixelate (macroblocking) and then disappear completely. That's what happens with my setup.

TV Trey

07-29-06, 08:47 PM

I am having reception problems with NBC and CBS in Tampa. I live in Apollo Beach which is soth of Tampa on the east side of TampaBay. I currently have a round Channel Master antenna on the roof of a 2 story house. I had a Channel Master Stealth on the roof but my installer swaped it out saying the round one is better since I was having problems with CBS HDTV at times. The round one is worse. I can get ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox in HD but a lot of times CBS or NBC will pixilate and or lose the signal. My installer (really just a home theater/alarm guy siad he will put what ever antenna I want on the roof just let him know.

Any suggestions on a better antenna for my area? I am using a D* HR10-250 and have to stay with D* for the NFL package. The antenna is split to 3 tv's in the house.

thanks! Mike

Mike, I live in zipcode 33872 and i'm using a Televes 1096 which is a high band only VHF and UHF combination antenna. I receive all the stations from Tampa with the exception of 10. However at the same setting it receives analog 11/ digital 9 out of Ft.Myers. It's an extremely well made antenna and is only about 50" long.
You can check it out at www.televes.com

SEMIJim

07-30-06, 09:49 AM

I will lose my signal for a few seconds sometimes. A every so often the picture will get pixely. Would the preamp help this?That depends on the reason for which that's happening. If it's weak signal strength: Yes, a pre-amp might help. If it's due to multipath: No, a pre-amp will probably do nothing for you, and could possibly make things worse.

jrnoel

07-31-06, 12:33 PM

I have the rg6 running straight from the antenna to the tv digital box. When i install the amp, is it ok to put hte power source near the tv or does it have to be in the attic with the antenna?

holl_ands

07-31-06, 02:54 PM

I have the rg6 running straight from the antenna to the tv digital box. When i install the amp, is it ok to put hte power source near the tv or does it have to be in the attic with the antenna?
Doesn't make any difference where you put the Preamp Power Module, as long as there are no DC Blocking components (e.g. RF Splitters) in between.

dennishp50

08-01-06, 11:22 AM

YellowSpoon

08-01-06, 02:52 PM

Tower Guy

08-01-06, 08:35 PM

Morpheus_Rising

08-02-06, 12:55 AM

VHF channels are being abandoned in three years so I don't want to waste my time getting a VHF antenna if I don't need it.

??????? I think you are confusing analog OTA tv stations with VHF-range stations. On February 17, 2009 all analog OTA will cease, as well as UHF stations 53-69 are being elminated. Current 53-69 stations will be reassigned, some might go on the VHF range. Currently, in some areas, there are HDTV stations on VHF. You are limiting yourself by getting only an UHF antenna. Besides, that's two and a half years away, are you going to give up 12 free stations for two and a half years?

holl_ands

08-02-06, 05:12 AM

I'm about to dump cable and go OTA only. I'll be replacing one of my TV's with a digital TV, but I still will have 2 analog TVs (at least until 2009). I live only 6 miles from the location from which all Boston stations broadcast. I want to get a good UHF antenna to reach for far-away UHF stations. I don't care about VHF stations other than those 6 miles away. VHF channels are being abandoned in three years so I don't want to waste my time getting a VHF antenna if I don't need it. My question is ... Will just-about-any UHF antenna be able to get those 1000 kW VHF stations only 6 miles away over flat terrain?
Yes, most UHF antennas should receive your local WHDT-DT when it moves to CH7 VHF station in a couple years....indeed a bent coat hanger should be adequate....

WWDP-DT (SAH network??? currently 20+ miles away in Norwell on CH52) apparently will MOVE to CH10....I hestitate to make any preditions....maybe they are relocating further away to the existing CH10 tower in Providence??? In which case the fol. would also apply...

Although, as you indicated above, you probably don't NEED these duplicative CBS and FOX network feeds.....WPRI-DT will remain on CH13, and WNAC-DT will move to CH12. Being about 30+ miles away in Providence RI, these may need the CM4228, which actually has reasonable gain for the upper VHF (7-13) channels. The CM4228's narrow UHF beam also helps to suppress the local signal levels so you can pick up the distant UHF signals. [Not so much for VHF....]

Tentative Channel Election Results can be found here (FCC posted 23May2006):
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-06-991A2.xls

holl_ands

08-02-06, 05:52 AM

I've been looking for a directional HDTV antenna that is small and can reach out to "blue" area. I ran across this model (HDTVo) that can be attached to the DirectTV or Dish mast and pick up the local HD channels.

Anyone have this Antenna?
BLUE means you need a serious antenna....and a Preamp, if indeed you are far enough away from ANY AND ALL towers.

Get a REAL antenna (you know, the ones that actually publish detailed specifications, with separate numbers for the antenna and the Preamp), rather than that overpriced underperformer from Terk.....

Yikes, best on-line price is about $80 and R-S wants $120!!!
Compare that to the CM4221 and CM4228 that we buy locally for $40 to $50....or any of several Winegard Corner-Yagi antennas we can buy locally for even less....plus another $50 for a Preamp....

coolhdtv

08-02-06, 07:41 AM

BLUE means you need a serious antenna....and a Preamp, if indeed you are far enough away from ANY AND ALL towers.

Get a REAL antenna (you know, the ones that actually publish detailed specifications, with separate numbers for the antenna and the Preamp), rather than that overpriced underperformer from Terk.....

Yikes, best on-line price is about $80 and R-S wants $120!!!
Compare that to the CM4221 and CM4228 that we buy locally for $40 to $50....or any of several Winegard Corner-Yagi antennas we can buy locally for even less....plus another $50 for a Preamp....

Can the CM4221 and CM4228 go in the attic? I'm 35 to 45 miles from the towers in 02360 on a hill and get very good reception with rabbit ears except for FOX. Wanted to try these plus the preamp to get everything plus not have rabbit ears in the room.
Thanks

SEMIJim

08-02-06, 12:15 PM

Can the CM4221 and CM4228 go in the attic?I suppose that would depend on the dimensions of your attic. Suggest you go to ChannelMaster's web site (http://www.channelmaster.com/), find the antennas in question, make a note of their (size) specs, and measure your attic space.

jrnoel

08-02-06, 09:45 PM

I have a cm 4228 mounted in my attic. I live about 30 miles from my local stations and I get 70-94% signal on them all. I don't have a preamp hooked up. Only one of my locals gets a little pixely from time to time and that is the one that is a little over 70%. I would try the antenna by it self first and if you don't get good enough signal, then get the preamp.

holl_ands

08-03-06, 12:33 AM

Can the CM4221 and CM4228 go in the attic? I'm 35 to 45 miles from the towers in 02360 on a hill and get very good reception with rabbit ears except for FOX. Wanted to try these plus the preamp to get everything plus not have rabbit ears in the room.
Thanks
I'm not sure where you are located. Zipcode 02360 is Plymouth MA (about 30+ miles East of Providence RI), whereas your one and only other post is for Ft Meyers, FL thread (zipcode 339xx)....which is it????

The CM4228 may be difficult to get through some attic entry holes--in which case the rear screens can be readily removed by disconneccting input connection screw pair and untwisting some tabs. But it is compact enough to fit in between most rafters--unlike many of the big VHF/UHF Combos and Corner-Yagi's....

Of course, if you need to use a rotator in the attic, it becomes more difficult to "swing" a CM4228 and the CM4221 also may be a tight squeeze.
But, if you have the room, it's doable as these other users have demonstrated:

coolhdtv

08-03-06, 10:04 AM

I'm not sure where you are located. Zipcode 02360 is Plymouth MA (about 30+ miles East of Providence RI), whereas your one and only other post is for Ft Meyers, FL thread (zipcode 339xx)....which is it????

The CM4228 may be difficult to get through some attic entry holes--in which case the rear screens can be readily removed by disconneccting input connection screw pair and untwisting some tabs. But it is compact enough to fit in between most rafters--unlike many of the big VHF/UHF Combos and Corner-Yagi's....

Of course, if you need to use a rotator in the attic, it becomes more difficult to "swing" a CM4228 and the CM4221 also may be a tight squeeze.
But, if you have the room, it's doable as these other users have demonstrated:

Thank you, that's exactly what I needed including pictures! The only other picture I found was someone who had it standing in the living room. The 4228 will fit in the attic I just wasn't sure how to install it and what the signal strength should be. It arrives tomorrow via UPS. I'll hold off on the rotator and amp for now and drop the RG6 down through the wall to the TV. I'm in Plymouth for summer and Ft Myers for winter so I'd like to take it with me rather than attach to roof plus I get bad wind. Although I get local HD on H20 via sat out of Boston, I like the antenna for backup and a few extra channels. Ft Myers requires OTA for HD locals. Thanks again!

geogecko

08-03-06, 11:31 AM

I've got a couple FusionHDTV 5 Lite cards in my HTPC, which I use for OTA HDTV reception. I also have the DB-8 antenna in my attic from AntennasDirect.

The recent upgrade was adding the second Fusion card, which caused me to install a 2-way splitter to get a signal to both cards. I appear to have dropped the signal enough now, that I get stuttering on the feeds. Using the Signal Checker software from DViCO, I monitored the local Fox channel in my area. I used to have 100% signal strength on that channel, now I'm down to about 80-85% or about 23dB. (Not sure what the power was at 100%.)

Anyway, I went to the local Radio Shack, and bought the 15-1170 in-line amplifier, and installed the amplifier directly on the coax output of the antenna in the attic. There is about 75 feet of RG6 between the antenna and the connection down in the living room (no splits). I installed the power injector on the cable that I have hooked up to the wall outlet, and then the other side of that to my 2-way splitter.

Well, after powering the amp up, I have exactly the same power level I did before installing it!

So, I'm guessing that that amp is a piece of junk (as the sales associate tried to tell me, but I didn't listen, because he said almost everyone that buys it brings it back, I just figured people weren't hooking it up right).

So, I'm now considering the 15-2507, which has a potential 20-30dB of gain. Could this possibly work where the other one failed? I guess if the in-line amplifier (1170) was already saturated, to where it was clipping, then my signal from the antenna may have been strong enough, and the need for a pre-amp was nil? That is the only explanation I can come up with, except for the fact that it's just junk.

Could I possibly be providing too much gain by going with the 15-2507, or should I consider the 15-2505, and just put that inside the house, right before the splitter?

SEMIJim

08-03-06, 12:35 PM

geogecko

08-03-06, 01:26 PM

If you want a real amplifier, I fear you're going to have to go somewhere other than Radio Shack. RS has its uses, but high-quality electronics isn't precisely what they're known for.

The best place for a pre-amp is before the long coax run. That way you're not amplifying any noise induced by the coax run itself.

Might you have any suggestions? Perhaps one of the ones on the list here?

I do not mind spending a few bucks to get a good amplifier, but really wouldn't want to pay more than $100.

Yeah, I did notice the words, "Made in China" stamped on the back of the power injector...so after it didn't work, I just assumed that it might have something to do with that.

geogecko

08-03-06, 03:58 PM

Anyone have details on the Pico Macom MPA-HD?

Can't seem to find any data sheets on it.

holl_ands

08-03-06, 06:06 PM

It doesn't immediately pop up on www.picomacom.com.
However, Google found it in their catalog (page B-6):
http://www.picomacom.com/macom/pdf/catalog-06/Section-B.pdf

15-17 dB Gain (higher for UHF???)
3 dB VHF N.F. (ok) and 5 dB UHF N.F. (not so hot)
30 dBmV = 90 dBuV (VHF) and 25 dBmV = 85 dBuV (UHF) Maximum Input with 15 simultaneous carrier signals (very poor)

geogecko

08-03-06, 06:15 PM

Hmm...thanks for finding that. I e-mailed them, and they said they didn't have it in PDF format, so they scanned a picture of it from that very catalog, but it was unreadable...

I just bought a Channel Master 7777. It seems to have better specs. than this Pico Macom. Are there max input specs for the 7777?

nyupipe

08-03-06, 07:01 PM

I live about 3 miles outside of NYC in NJ. I have Directv installing their OTA tommorrow on my roof. Should I be considering another route? How difficult is it to pick up stations listed as blue on antennaweb.org? Based on your expert opinions which of the following channels will the Directv antenna pick up, and is there another solution which does not involve an extremly large or expensive antennas which would provide a significant increase in reception?

Here is the info provided by antennaweb.

DTV Antenna
Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live
Date Compass
Orientation Miles
From Frequency
Assignment
* yellow - uhf WNJN-DT 51.1 PBS MONTCLAIR NJ 325° 11.2 51
* yellow - uhf WNJU-DT 36 TEL LINDEN NJ 168° 3.4 36
* yellow - uhf WPXN-DT 31.1 i NEW YORK NY 168° 3.4 30
* yellow - uhf WWOR-DT 9.1 UPN SECAUCUS NJ 114° 2.9 38
* yellow - uhf WNYW-DT 5.1 FOX NEW YORK NY 114° 2.9 44
* yellow - uhf WPIX-DT 11.1 WB NEW YORK NY 114° 2.9 33
* yellow - uhf WXTV-DT 41.1 UNI PATERSON NJ 114° 2.9 40
* yellow - uhf WNET-DT 13.1 PBS NEWARK NJ 114° 2.9 61
* yellow - uhf WABC-DT 7.1 ABC NEW YORK NY 103° 2.8 45
* yellow - uhf WCBS-DT 2.1 CBS NEW YORK NY 114° 2.9 56
* green - uhf WNBC-DT 4.1 NBC NEW YORK NY 99° 3.1 28
* green - uhf WFUT-DT 68.1 TFA NEWARK NJ 103° 2.8 53
* red - uhf WNYE-DT 25.1 IND NEW YORK NY 157° 5.7 24
* red - uhf WMBC-DT 63.1 IND NEWTON NJ 315° 33.8 18
* blue - uhf WNJT-DT 43.1 PBS TRENTON NJ 239° 47.1 43

SEMIJim

08-03-06, 10:41 PM

Might you have any suggestions? Perhaps one of the ones on the list here?Not really. I've had a couple of people here recommend to me the Winegard HDP-269 (about $50 on-line), but that's a relatively low-gain pre-amp primarily designed to overcome coax and splitter loss, I believe. Then again: Looking back, that seems to be precisely your issue, so maybe that one would be a perfect fit for you? Warren Electronics (http://www.warrenelectronics.com) carries them. I bought my antenna from them and was satisfied with the experience.

I suggest doing a search in this forum section (HDTV Reception Hardware) and the Local HDTV Info and Reception section for "pre-amp" and see what turns up. (You'll probably get lots of hits.)

Yeah, I did notice the words, "Made in China" stamped on the back of the power injector...so after it didn't work, I just assumed that it might have something to do with that.Not particularly. Most of the electonics we buy in North America anymore are made somewhere off-shore, where the labour is much less expensive :(.

rcodey

08-03-06, 11:09 PM

geogecko

08-03-06, 11:49 PM

Yeah, I just noticed the Channel Master I bought has the same text, "Made in China."

Hopefully it will perform better.

I just measured with my signal checker software, and the splitter taken off, and I see about 28-29dB, or what it calls, 95-100% signal strength. So, that 4dB appears to be what is killing me.

It will probably be a week or so, since I bought one off of eBay.

coolhdtv

08-04-06, 09:17 PM

I finally got the CM4228 installed in the attic. Hardest part was fishing the coax. What signal meter are you using to determine the db and what is the expected level? My HR10-250 shows antenna signal of 93% sat of 99% but I'm not sure if there's more I need to know. OTA has never been better and I finally get FOX from 02360.

I now plan to split the signal to the H20 in another room. I saw a powered RCA splitter at Home Depot when I got the brackets. Is that what I use or should I use just a generric 2 way coax splitter.

CM4228 $49
50ft RG6 $25
Brackets $9
More channels and less compressed locals than MPEG4...

Priceless

coolhdtv

08-04-06, 09:43 PM

Thanks, I'm at 02360. I'll use a normal splitter first then check the strength on the H20 if I can find out how and if I can fish the coax. I'll get any signal meter. I just didn't see one at Home Depot. I'll probably use it as much as my electric voltage meter. Once.

geogecko

08-04-06, 10:32 PM

My guess is you're going to drop to about 85% by using a passive splitter. The drop will be between 3.5 and 4dB. This may or may not work for you. When I did it, it did not work, I still got a signal, but it was pixelated and stuttered quite often.

Myth

08-05-06, 01:48 AM

i agree

geogecko

08-05-06, 09:58 AM

Rick.

I was basing my numbers on his comment:

My HR10-250 shows antenna signal of 93% sat of 99% but I'm not sure if there's more I need to know.

If that measurement is correct, and depending on how sensitive the Rx is, I would think it is somewhat safe to say that he'll be around 85%. That may not mean that he won't be able to Rx it, but it's getting closer to that point of not being able to.

You are right, ideally, a 2-way splitter "should" only drop the power by half, but I've found in practice, at least with locally available (and maybe that's part of the problem), it's more like 4dB.

Now, if he had said that he had 100%, then one couldn't really make any judgement, because at 100%, you don't know if the power is "just right" or 6dB, 9dB over what the Rx needs to consider 100%. In that case, inserting the splitter may still leave him at 100%. But the fact that he is seeing 93% in some cases, means the Rx is not getting what it considers a perfect level signal.

Maybe I was a bit dramatic, and since I know nothing about his Rx, or his antenna setup, I couldn't say for sure. We'll just have to see.

On another note, I just bought the CM-7777, but I do live almost exactly 35 miles from the towers (some 32 miles). The other thing is, that my antenna is in the attic, and not on the roof, which is why I bought an antenna that could bring in signals about 70 miles away. I'm hoping that this amplifier will be able to help with the cable and single 2-way splitter losses that I have, and at least give me enough to stay around the 100% mark on my tuners.

Any idea what the losses are through 75 feet of RG6? I'm guessing between 3-6dB, for most of the UHF channels?

AntAltMike

08-05-06, 11:20 AM

I haven't followed this thread recently, so I don't know if this coment is redundant or not, but the displyed signal strength number is something arbitrary derived from a secret algorithm incorporated into each receiver, and that differs from receiver to receiver. It probably varies inversely with the amount of forward error correction taking place. I can pad down a strong signal by 20dB and get the same signal strength reading as I get at full strength, and if I continuously vary its strength, it will sometimes go up and down over that range.

geogecko

08-05-06, 11:23 AM

geogecko

08-05-06, 11:27 AM

Mike. That's interesting, and kind of what I expected. I figured that not everyone uses the same algorithm, seeing as how each device could be using a different tuner, which could require different signal strenths.

So, it's up to the guy putting in the splitter to let us know how much his signal went down.

AntAltMike

08-05-06, 11:43 AM

We don't have any way to calculate or even reliable estimate our preamplifier input overload thresholds because the problem I most often encounter is when an intermodulation byproduct of the stronger signals degrades one of the weaker signal to the point at which it cannot be reliably processed. To calculate that level, we'd have to know the absolute strength and frequency of each signal in the system, calculate the amplitude and frequency of each undesired, on-channel byproduct, and then determine whether that byproduct was of a magnitude and nature to fatally degrade the desired signal.

Most consumer pre-amplifier ratings are for a small number of equal strength channels, calculating the point at which one of the equal strength analog channels would first develop visible degradation, either in the form of sync compression, or ribs from inband spikes. Cable companies, on the other hand, have large, uniform loads and the additional complication of cascading of intermodulation byproducts, but while their amplifiers theoretically produce lot more interference, because of the larger channel load and need to drive them to maximum power, the people engineering those distribution systems have it easier than we do, because all of their system parameters are known and constant.

That's why we wing it here, instead.

AntAltMike

08-05-06, 12:09 PM

LOL. I'd be interested in your numbers from your HD Tivo. I've got my OTA coming into FusionHDTV 5 Lite PC cards. They seem to be rather sensitive to anything below about 85% or so (24dB coming in). When I have about 99-100% (or about 28dB), they are more than happy with that.

I don't know to whom that request was directed, but don't have an HD Tivo. I do have a FushionHDTV5 USB module that I bought to use for roof-top analysis of "signal quality", since the last time I priced a meter with the capability of measuring and displaying pre-corrected bit error rates for broadcast 8VSB, the cheapest stand-alone one costs $8,000, but I haven't used my Fusion unit in a long time because it takes my PC forever to boot up with that program.

I also have a customer base of a couple hundred large buildings for which I maintain the master antenna system, and have installed multi-antenna array broadcast DTV reception headends in about a dozen, and I filter and balance each input signal as best as I can within my budget. My systems typically mix the antenna inputs of at least 16 broadcast DTV channels and a dozen analog ones, coming from five different cities. Since I try to keep the price of these headends down to $5,000 each, I don't always have the means to balance adjacent or even alternate channels as well as I'd like to.

When I am putting the finishing touches on a system, I usually have a consumer DTV tuner box in the room where the headend processing equipment is stored, and of course I also have a spectrum analyzer, so I have a lot of reliable information available to me regarding the relationship of actual signal levels, measured in dBmV or dBm, and the numbers that a randomly chosen consumer DTV tuner produces. Conclusions that people arrive at regarding the relationship between signal processing reliability and input signal strength based on observations of the performance of, and primitive metering ability of, one residential DTV receiver are unreliable as a basis for either interpreting what is happening within one's own system or predicting what results others may have in attempting to managing their own unique situations.

johnsojs

08-05-06, 03:17 PM

Just want to see if anyone can help me with this. I need an antenna mast, like a 50 ft or so, and I can't seem to find one. Does anyone know where a good place to order one is?

DougRuss

08-05-06, 03:37 PM

Just want to see if anyone can help me with this. I need an antenna mast, like a 50 ft or so, and I can't seem to find one. Does anyone know where a good place to order one is?
Your looking for a Tower:

http://www.solidsignal.com/cat_display.asp?CAT=Antenna%20Towers

keenan

08-05-06, 06:47 PM

He might be thinking of something like these, I just picked this site at random, there may be better prices elsewhere. I tried one of these awhile back and it's a nightmare to setup.

http://www.firstmilewireless.com/prod_tele-mast.html
Telescoping Masts

milehighmike

08-05-06, 09:04 PM

Channel Master makes masts in 30, 40 and 50 foot lengths. Lowes carries the 30 footer, model 1830. It's under $50 but does require guy wires. I'm sure the 50 footer is more expensive, but I don't think it'll cost hundreds of $'s like the items in the above two posts.

geogecko

08-05-06, 09:34 PM

Thanks AAM. That little spheal brings me back to the days of DSP and Communications classes, not much of which I remember, since I'm not working in the field.

So, if I understand correctly, I assume that OTA signals will all be at different power levels, partly because each tower is a different distance from the others, partly because they transmit at different power levels, and probably other effects, depending on what frequency they are Txing.

Which is why I get different signal levels on different channels. So, I guess it's a big compromise, for most of us home users, since we don't have thousands of dollars to spend on a setup that would allow us to filter (or, rather equalize) each channel independently of the others.

So, basically what I think I'm hearing, is that just by using this preamplifier, I may help one channel, but hinder another, if it ends up overdriving the Rx'er.

Is there ever a point where the amplifier will be saturated at a particular frequency, thus keeping it from providing any more gain to that one frequency, but allowing others to be boosted? Or does that one saturation keep the others from being boosted at all? Man, it's been a long time...in the digital world.

It would be nice to have a spectrum analyzer to see what is really going on, but I don't happen to have one of those around the house. That is one thing I didn't understand about the FusionHDTV utility. It displays power levels in dB, but dB is a relative term, is it not? dB/V or dBm would make more since. I never thought about using it as just a power meter, but you're right, it's a relatively inexpensive way to measure signal strength.

I tried to look up the specs on the LG tuner in the Fusion cards, but couldn't find it. I was trying to find out what the max input level is supposed to be.

AntAltMike

08-05-06, 10:49 PM

Just want to see if anyone can help me with this. I need an antenna mast, like a 50 ft or so, and I can't seem to find one. Does anyone know where a good place to order one is?
The seller in Keenan's link charges a minimum of $250 for freight. I bought a 40 footer from my local Channel Master distributor that he had in stock and paid no freight. I'm pretty sure I paid less than a hundred bucks for it, but I don't remember for sure.

I think that Channel Master sends its truck out once a month, and I don't think their distributors are charged freight on those monthly deliveries.

sjso395

08-06-06, 12:36 AM

I bought a 40 footer from my local Channel Master distributor that he had in stock and paid no freight. .

What type of base are you all using on these telescoping mast? I am looking at a 30 ft telescoping mast that my local CM dealer has in stock.

hdtvluvr

08-06-06, 11:52 AM

I have a 50 ft. unit that I am only going to extend to about 40 ft. My plans are to place about 2 ft. in the ground and attach the mast to the eave of my 2 story house. This way, about 15 ft. will be above the roof line. My plans are not to use any quy wires. Of course, the last section will actually be 2 pieces of pipe (one inside the other) since I won't be going the full 50 ft. I'm going to install a Wingard HD-7084 antenna.

The 50 footer was about $125.

hdtvluvr

08-06-06, 04:20 PM

Thanks for the idea and photos. However, I purchased the items several months ago - just waiting to get back to this project.

My original plan was to do almost all of it on the ground (patio) and raise the sections. I really don't like ladders and roofs and wanted to minimize my time on either. Then while I was working on another project that required trenching, I realized that I could use the upper part of the trench for PVC containing the RG6, etc. and actually locate the antenna off the patio. This put the project on hold until all of the other work was done.

I hope to have the antenna up within the next 2 months.

rgathright

08-07-06, 01:51 PM

Has anyone used this antenna mast? It will be for a CM 4228.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=DS-3000

geogecko

08-07-06, 02:41 PM

To keep the situation simple since you do not have access to instumentation.

At the site I determine the distance to towers , take into account other signals in the area (fm, etc), the gain of the antenna , the length of coax, number of signal splits, long and short runs, etc.

I basically use 4 preamps and a couple distribution amps: fixed, variable, and some commercial qualitity with variable gain contol for vhf and uhf. I use splitters not amplified splitters.

Cm7777, winegard ap8275 for 35+ miles
ap8700 for the mid range 25-35 miles
Winegard hdp269 for the suburbs less than 30 or so miles

I select a preamp based on distance...If the preamp overloads, shows co channel or adjacent channel interference, I then go to the next one down in gain . If all preamps overload the next step is distribution amps of various gain (as mentioned above.) I avoid attenuation to tame overload by selecting the proper amp for the situation.

Lately have been using the winegard hdp269 preamp at the antenna with splitters in place of the distribution amps with splitters. If I get a little overload I install it outside at the grounding block in stead of the antenna.

If I want to get fancy, if I have all day to screw around, and the customer wants to pay me fot the time, I will give it the spectrum analyzer treatment.

Well, hopefully the CM-7777 will work for what I need. If not, I went ahead and got a CM-3042 distribution amplifier to place just before the 2-way splitter. Hopefully, one of these two methods (or possibly both combined), will help my situation.

rgathright

08-07-06, 08:03 PM

the mount is not suggested for the cm4228.

the cm 4228 is rather bulky and offers alot of wind load.

Any recommendations for something similiar? I do not want to go through my new roof and need it to be not very noticible.

SEMIJim

08-07-06, 10:54 PM

Any recommendations for something similiar?The problem is not the mast (pipe) itself, it's the small footprint of its attachment to the roof (or whatever). Ever stuck your arm out the window of a car going 60 MPH or more? Now imagine something the size of a CM 4228 in your hand and imagine the force. All that force ends up exerted on the point at which the mast is mounted.

I do not want to go through my new roof and need it to be not very noticible.I can understand your reluctance, but going through the roof isn't a big deal. You just have to do it right and make sure it's all sealed-up well. (And get up there and re-check it from time-to-time, like I have to do with the poorly-installed electrical service entrance I have that's due for a re-sealing.)

That CM 4228 is pretty big. I don't know as I'd want the wind load it looks like that thing could generate even on my heavy-duty chimney mount.

rgathright

08-08-06, 06:55 AM

The problem is not the mast (pipe) itself, it's the small footprint of its attachment to the roof (or whatever). Ever stuck your arm out the window of a car going 60 MPH or more? Now imagine something the size of a CM 4228 in your hand and imagine the force. All that force ends up exerted on the point at which the mast is mounted.

I can understand your reluctance, but going through the roof isn't a big deal. You just have to do it right and make sure it's all sealed-up well. (And get up there and re-check it from time-to-time, like I have to do with the poorly-installed electrical service entrance I have that's due for a re-sealing.)

That CM 4228 is pretty big. I don't know as I'd want the wind load it looks like that thing could generate even on my heavy-duty chimney mount.

How would something like this work?

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=RON3442

SEMIJim

08-08-06, 09:40 AM

How would something like this work?

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=RON3442It'll certainly be much stronger than the other thing. Whether it'll hold up or not I'd hesitate to say. It'll be a weakest link situation: If the bolts are big enough and the eve is strong enough, or, looked at the other way, if the wind load doesn't exceed the strength of either one...

Personally, I think a tri-pod, with the bolts backed by 2x4's or 2x6's, top and bottom (to distribute the force at the attachment points), best for a large antenna. A tri-pod has an additional advantage: If ever you don't need it anymore, it's trivially easy to take away the tri-pod and cover the holes. Big holes drilled into the eves, on the other hand...

AntAltMike

08-08-06, 09:52 AM

How would something like this work?

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=RON3442

I've used them. It is generally suitable, but its weakenesses are that you can't get much vertical distance betwen the two parts if the roof is not steep, which gives the mast a lot of leverage. I like to keep my wallmounts three or four feet apart if I am using 15 fet of mast (at 10' and a 5' section), which will put the antenna about ten feet above the peak.

The only other vulnerability of that mount is that the face board it attaches to is sometimes not structuraly sound. But I've never had such a mount fail.

Porsche576

08-09-06, 05:33 PM

Are amplified antennas beter than ones that rn't ?Thanks

greywolf

08-09-06, 11:45 PM

It depends on how far from the source you are. I consider amplification a last resort for long distance attempts as amps both add noise and amplify already present noise. For outlying areas though, they can be a godsend.

NightHawk

08-10-06, 05:59 AM

Are amplified antennas beter than ones that rn't ?Thanks

It depends also on the type and quality of the amplifier and receiver. For long distance reception and/or reception of low-powered transmitters, system noise figure becomes important. If the pre-amp or amplified antenna has a better (lower) noise figure than your receiver does, there is a net increase in system signal-to-noise ratio. Most pre-amps have a significantly better noise figure than most DTV receivers.

If however the stations are close and/or strong, noise figure is unimportant and the pre-amp will be a disadvantage. The additional gain will decrease dynamic range and linearly increase the probability of saturation (overload).

christo76

08-10-06, 11:24 AM

Looking for some help deciding on an antenna. I will be getting my new TV (first HD) in a few days.

Used antennaweb to try to figure out antenna, but it seems a bit odd because nearly all the stations are in the exact same direction and distance, labeled as "Yellow" for antenna, but then 1 will be green, another red. All these are 16.9 miles away at 46 degrees. I also have one station, FOX, that is labeled as "Blue" even though its 17.8 miles away at 69 degrees.

My house in on a hill, there is one large willow tree east of me that is just taller then my roof. I have directv with a 3x4 splitter that I was going to have the antenna feed into, then use diplexers at each tv (will be 2 eventually).

Is there an indoor/attic antenna that would be best? Do I need a "blue" medium directional antenna with pre-amp to get an 18mile away signal?

I also have an old antenna, on a mast about 20ft above the roof, but its 40 years old and the wire was cut. Would I be best to climb the mast, open it up and attach a twinlead, or balun then RG6? Its not a big antenna, looks sort of like a winegard HD7210P.

Any help would be appreciated,
thanks
chris

jtbell

08-10-06, 12:48 PM

nearly all the stations are in the exact same direction and distance, labeled as "Yellow" for antenna, but then 1 will be green, another red. All these are 16.9 miles away at 46 degrees.

Even when transmitting from the same location, reception can depend on transmitter power level and on frequency (channel number).

I also have one station, FOX, that is labeled as "Blue" even though its 17.8 miles away at 69 degrees.

It must be either at a very low power level, or "hidden" from your location by a mountain or something.[/QUOTE]

geogecko

08-10-06, 01:44 PM

holl_ands

08-10-06, 06:36 PM

I was told that if using an antenna in your attic, versus outside, then you should derate the distance that an antenna can "reach" by half. In other words, if the antenna is good for up to 70 miles, then it's ~35 miles in your attic.
UHF Attic loss has been measured to be about 13 dB +/- 6 dB...and Bob Chase measured about 20 dB in his attic.

The difference between a "70-mile" and a "35-mile" antenna is probably on the order of just a few dB.

Yes, it helps to have a more powerful antenna (and maybe a Preamp) for an attic antenna....

But, don't believe this "rule of thumb"....

holl_ands

08-10-06, 06:41 PM

Even when transmitting from the same location, reception can depend on transmitter power level and on frequency (channel number).

It must be either at a very low power level, or "hidden" from your location by a mountain or something.
Note that antennaweb.org also calculates co-channel and adjacent channel interference. There may be a nearby station that is either on the same channel or an adjacent channel that will limit how far away some channels are received.
The transmit antenna patterns can also be different in both azimuthal and elevation coverages.

holl_ands

08-10-06, 06:43 PM

FreeBaGeL

08-11-06, 11:37 AM

I also need some help selecting an antenna. I've been looking for a quality indoor OTA antenna to pick up my local OTA HD stations. I've done quite a bit of searching and reading and it seems like the Zenith Silver Sensor ZHDTV has gotten great reviews and is nice and small so won't look bad in the living room. However, all the posts and reviews I've read about it are from early 2004 so I'm not sure if things have changed and there are better options out there nowadays. I also noticed it doesn't have an amplifier, which many modern antennas boast about. Does this matter?

I am located in central Florida (zip 32607). The channels I am trying to pick up are all yellow-uhf on antennaweb. They are 5.3, 6.7, 11.0, and 19.3 miles away respectively. There are no tall buildings in between but there are lots and lots of trees.

Is the Silver Sensor a good selection in my case? TIA.

christo76

08-11-06, 12:04 PM

You didn't say where you were located (at least zipcode, preferably nearby cross streets).

Sorry... around 1300 east roberta ave, 53186.

The street is a pretty steep hill. I tried entering 1300 e. roberta and it drops the blue channels to red. I didn't know if antenna web would use street level then add 10 ft for single story and 20ft for mulitple story. If so then using 1300 should get a more correct elevation, as it is further up the hill, and my house sits 10-15 above street, putting the attic above 35-40 above street and the old tower about 55-60 ft above street.

Though I don't know how to change the antenna on the tower, its old, steel, and has no pivots on the bottom, just straight into concrete. I will try climbing up to it this weekend with a ladder to see if I can rewire it, though it has a couple foot-long metal pieces that seem to have fallen off.

chris

jtbell

08-11-06, 02:14 PM

christo76

08-11-06, 03:45 PM

For best results with antennaweb.org, have it display the street level map, then zoom in on your neighborhood and re-center the map on your actual location if necessary. When I enter my address, the location comes up a few hundred yards off, giving predictions that are somewhat different after I adjust the location.

Wow, didn't know I could move it on there... thanks alot. With that I come up with Red for the furthest stations.

Is there a preferred antenna for RED... medium directional? Is there one that could be easily mounted to the side of my existing tower?

Chris

geogecko

08-11-06, 08:21 PM

Rick.

Do you think this antenna selection is good enough for my situation? I've already got the antenna installed, in my attic, but am not getting very good reception for a couple of the channels.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB8_HD_Antenna.html

My location is 4200 Blue Grass Court 75028.

I've recentered the map to look like this:

http://www.thebentzhome.com/pics/avs/antennaweb.png

I have 50 feet of their RG6 cable between the antenna and the wall plate in my living room, then about another 10 feet of coax from there to my tuner. My house is single story, with a high pitch roof.

I'm mainly interested in the yellow and green channels, but realize that ABC is VHF, which I cannot receive with my current antenna (would be nice).

Fox is the one I'm having the hardest time with. Getting stuttering and pixelation on that channel. I don't know if it's my reception, or something to do with the way they are broadcasting the signal (do they ever change power levels during the day?).

I've tried using the CM-7777 with no luck. Signal level, strangely enough, stayed exactly the same level, with or without the pre-amp. (At least, for Fox, anyway.)

Fox shows a signal level of about 80 to 90% strength, or about 22-23dB.

Thanks for any assistance. If you would recommend another antenna, which would you recommend (would prefer one in my attic, versus outside the home).

What do you think of those square antennas, that look more like a patch antenna, similar in size to a Direct TV dish? I could see mounting one of those outside my house, but the coax length would be probably closer to 150-200 feet.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/lacrosse.html
http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm

geogecko

08-11-06, 10:18 PM

Thanks Rick. That's interesting. Are you saying the results on antennaweb don't seem right, such as the antenna to use, or just the fact that they didn't have all the channels listed. I found it strange that I moved the location about 100 feet, and it changes the results of the stations that it lists...

I may get the DB-8 outside, and see if that improves anything, but that may be a bit difficult, until I get some extra coax.

In regards to the HD7082P, is there a recommended way to install these in an attic? The DB-8 was pretty easy, I just bought an attic mount (basically a pole on a bracket that I mounted to a vertical support in the attic, but these type of antennas look like that wouldn't work.

Maybe a pole mounted on the top of a wall? I've also heard of people using fishing line to string an antenna to rafters...

geogecko

08-12-06, 12:37 AM

Mainly asthetics. Our house is on a corner lot, on the inside, so the house is visable from basically all sides, except maybe the NE side. The only other thing, is that the installation gets more complicated. Having to find a way to bring the coax in, mounting a mast to the roof, and grounding the antenna. I'm not positive, but I'm also sure WAF would also not allow me to install it outside.

I've been doing some tests, using the Fusion signal checker software. I have both Fusion cards hooked up now, using one splitter.

I made measurements on every channel, and I'm seeing between 0-4dB loss from the last time I did this, with just one tuner, and no splitter.

Fox used to be one of the strongest stations, and still is, but I've got other stations with the same power level, that have no stuttering problems. (Interesting, that some appear to have gained power...probably due to my averaging...) I just watch the signal for a while, and then write down numbers that are in the middle of the highs and lows that I'm seeing.

One thing I don't understand exactly, is why the pre-amp does not help. Since I don't have any channels sitting at 100% or more, it leads me to believe the receiver is not being overdriven. Will a distribution amp help with this?

I think the next step, is to probably take the DB-8 outside, and see what happens. In the spreadsheet below, the highlighted yellow rows are the channels that I currently even care about having (well, except ABC).

http://www.thebentzhome.com/pics/avs/stations.png

holl_ands

08-12-06, 03:13 AM

TV Trey

08-12-06, 06:19 AM

Geogecko- Due to odd harmonics, many UHF antennas have very useful gain on certain high band VHF frequencies. The Televes 1044/X43 is a very good antenna that draws little attention to itself and has good gain at channel 9. The 4228 does well on high band VHF channels, however it is so ugly the only place to install it is the attic.

geogecko

08-14-06, 01:20 PM

- Would rather see you spend your money on a winegard hd7082p. I usually go with a winegard hd7084p at 35 miles (you show up as yellow and would go down a size). or add a ch 7-13 vhf antenna with your db-8 to get your vhf station. But if you do that, you might as well purchase the combo (hd7082P) and have one antenna.

You said that you normally go with a HD7084P at 35 miles, but for yellow, would go down a size. Is this with an outside antenna, or inside?

If outside, would you recommend the 7084P instead of the 7082P, or something else.

It appears that my reception while at 80%, appears to be the problem. On another forum, another user gets 100% on their signals, and has stutter free video (they had problems before when it was less than 90%).

I'm just wondering if the Winegard antennas will provide better performance than the DB-8. I've tried to align the DB-8 better, but I still do not get any better results than I already have, just moving it between 180 and 130 degrees (161 degrees is the real compus number), and the results never get better.

Oh, and are the Winegard HD series antennas uni-directional, or multi-directional?

keenan

08-14-06, 04:03 PM

Anyone have experience Kathrein Scala products? I was looking at the parabolic model listed on the below page. A PDF is provided when you click on parabolic. I have no idea what these cost either, but apparently they're popular for commercial use such as cable companies picking up station's signals. I was wondering how they compared to the CM 4228/4248.

BTW, the Blonder-Tongue link in the first post is broken.

http://www.kathrein-scala.com/uhf-tv.htm
Kathrein Scala Division - professional antenna and filter products for broadcast, land mobile and wireless communication applications.

milt9

08-14-06, 04:44 PM

I have no idea what these cost.
if you have to ask the price, you cannot afford it

keenan

08-14-06, 05:20 PM

I have no idea what these cost.
if you have to ask the price, you cannot afford it
I only asked as I have not contacted Kathrein Scala myself yet. If the thing works, and the cost is even somewhere in the low 3 digits, I have no problem with that.

I was mostly interested if anyone has actually used and has experience with the antenna.

AntAltMike

08-14-06, 05:56 PM

keenan

08-14-06, 08:35 PM

Do you have any reason to believe they will perform better than what you are using now? The difference between most consumer and commercial reception products is durability, not performance.

I thought that you were behind a hill, trying to get channels 40 to 50 miles away, with possible concern that a station some 15 miles away and 30 degrees offline might be complicating your amplification. Did you ever try either filtering off the likely offending signals or using a lower gain amplifier?
I'm currently using a Research Comm pre-amp with the 91XG Yagi I talked about earlier, along with a Dish 622 receiver. The Dish is doing a better job than the HD-TiVo I was using before, but of course, it's still just not there.

The biggest problem is I get random complete loss of signal, when I do have the signal, which is 90-95% of the time it's good, no problem. If I can figure out what's causing the complete loss, and if there is a solution, then I'd be set. Something else of note, the local PBS station (RF-23), about 10-15 miles away, is pegging the Dish signal meter. There is also a Ch-41 block on the lead prior to the pre-amp. The desired channel is RF-45.

No, I have no reason to believe the KS product would be any better, I'm basically just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. That complete dropout of signal drives me nuts.

keenan

08-14-06, 09:52 PM

overload maybe

what does the analog look like in regards to co channel and adjacent channel intereferences.

the amp you have may be very low noise but the higher gain wrecks havoc. The 23 db gain of that unit is alot for stations 15 miles away...plus the 91xg has alot of gain to begin with.

heck I would love to use a low noise higher gain amp at my place 12-19 miles from the towers with my winegard hd8200p.

I had to settle with the winegard hdp-269 amp. on a good day I receive buffalo digital over 120 miles away. no attenuation...no dropouts, no multipath, no headaches, I hate using attenuation.

I plan on experimenting with the 91xg this fall...that antenna intrigues me.

Can't tell, there is no analog tuner in the 622. If it was overload from Ch-22 wouldn't it be constant? I've been watching the ESPN game simulcast on Ch-45 and it hasn't dropped out in over an hour, that's not to say it won't happen a minute from now.

I think the most likely culprit is weather, the SF bay area has all sorts of micro-climates that are constantly changing during the day, and if that's the case, I'm pretty much SOL.

RayL Jr.

08-15-06, 10:16 AM

BTW, the Blonder-Tongue link in the first post is broken.Thanks for the heads up, I corrected the link to Blonder Tongue's main page: Blonder Tongue BTY Series VHF & UHF antennas (http://www.blondertongue.com/Reception) (page also has link to preamps, etc...).

As for the parabolic link, I'll look into it. Was going to put in Channel Master's 7 foot parabolic dish but that one has been discontinued...

RayL Jr.

08-15-06, 10:52 AM

I guess deals can still be had for the CM 4251 - manufacture was stopped in 2000. The Kathrein-Scala parabolics seem to list for "about" $767 MSRP from this page (http://www.tessco.com/products/displayProducts.do?groupId=342&subgroupId=47&mfgid=SCA). And there are people on the web that seem happy with them, I did a search on Google for "Kathrein Scala parabolic" and ""Kathrein Scala PR-TV".

keenan

08-15-06, 11:52 AM

Thanks, Ray and Rick.

What makes that 4251 so expensive? The size, the specs, or the fact that it's discontinued? There was one these at a local Home Theater store for years until he went out of business. I was going to ask the owner about it but he closed up shop and took the antenna with him before I got around to it.

As far as the KS stuff, as AltAntMike notes, it appears it's their durability that makes them special, unless there is something about their performance that makes them better, I haven't done a side by side comparison of the specs.

keenan

08-15-06, 12:16 PM

Possibly another link for the first post. Wade Antenna Ltd.

http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/index.htm
Antenna Manufacturer for VHF, UHF, Wi-Fi 802.11 Antenna Products.

The PB-82-BB "looks" good according to the specs. Looks to have high gain and a real narrow beam, which I'm guessing would be good in my situation. Haven't checked prices though, if it like the CM4251 it's too much, but at half that amount, and if it's a substantial improvement over the 91XG, it'd a real possibility.

http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/upaes.htm
Wade Cable TV Antennas - UHF Broadband Parabolic Antennas

Something else I'm curious about. How would go about finding someone that would do a site survey, check for signal availability and possible interfering signals..that sort of thing, and what does that typically run cost-wise? Reason I ask about the interference is that in another part of the SF bay area there was a case where two different mobile radio transmissions would cancel out the frequency the person was trying to get and would cause dropouts very similar to what I'm having. I think one of the outfits was the local police, don't recall the other, but they did get it resolved after tracking down who was doing what.

keenan

08-15-06, 03:28 PM

did you try angling the 91xg to the horizon. you might find a sweetspot where reflections are minimized. the signal from the mtn. can bounce off the hills to the rear, etc.

the area has a challenging topography...and must add...beautiful.
Not really, all we've done is go up and down around 10' feet with it. The installation would make it difficult to make elevation changes easily, although it could be done. I had given up on doing anything with it until I recently gave it a shot on the Dish 622 and got such a stable signal that my interest has peaked again. The installation itself is mounted atop a 70' redwood tree so it makes adjustments more than a simple chore, and no, wind moving the tree has not correlated to the dropouts, in fact, tree movement seems to have very little effect on the signal.

Before I try anything else I would like to try and understand the reason for the complete dropouts. To me, it would seem that weather would be gradual, possibly commercial jets from SFO using a particular flight pattern, I don't know, I'm guessing.

Yes, it is quite beautiful in this area, definitely outweighs moving just to get a better TV signal. :D

geogecko

08-15-06, 03:35 PM

I just realized that there is a rather large (at least 12", maybe 16") diameter HVAC duct running directly under my DB-8, well, about 2-3 feet below. Could that possibly be causing my problems with reception?

I notice that when I bring a compass within a few inches of the antenna, I get invalid readings...

If buying equipment for a mast at a home improvement store, what type of material is used for the mast itself? Steel pipe? What size is it?

keeper

08-15-06, 03:58 PM

Hey guys need some help here. I have a channel 4 digital/21 analog. Its about 21 miles away and there is a hill in my path. Experimenting with my CM 4228 the analog comes in below average. Audio is solid but the analog pq has some weird things going on with it. I take it is because of the mountain. Anyway is channel 4 easier to get than a uhf channel21? I am hoping since it is vhf it will be easier becuase of the wave lengths to acquire. My plan is to use a cut vhf channel 4. I need this channel. Thanks

keeper

08-16-06, 07:04 AM

I guess my question is - all things being equal is vhf (4) easier to aquire than uhf stations? I think that a vhf signal will go longer distances than a uhf so I am hoping the vhf is easier to get.

markrubin

08-16-06, 07:51 AM

jtbell

08-16-06, 08:10 AM

vhf (4) easier to aquire than uhf stations? I think that a vhf signal will go longer distances than a uhf so I am hoping the vhf is easier to get.

VHF signals do propagate better than UHF because their wavelength is longer so they diffract ("bend") more at ridge tops and can follow the earth's curvature to some extent. Also they pass more easily through trees etc. Lower channel numbers have longer wavelengths, so these factors work best for low VHF channels (2-6).

On the other hand, VHF signals are more susceptible to electrical interference and impulse noise, and the lower channels are the worst in this respect. Unfortunately, digital signals are much more sensitive to this than analog signals are. With analog, the noise shows up as bands of bright "sparkles" which are annoying, but the picture is still watchable. With digital, the noise causes the picture to break up completely.

keeper

08-16-06, 09:44 AM

VHF signals do propagate better than UHF because their wavelength is longer so they diffract ("bend") more at ridge tops and can follow the earth's curvature to some extent. Also they pass more easily through trees etc. Lower channel numbers have longer wavelengths, so these factors work best for low VHF channels (2-6).

On the other hand, VHF signals are more susceptible to electrical interference and impulse noise, and the lower channels are the worst in this respect. Unfortunately, digital signals are much more sensitive to this than analog signals are. With analog, the noise shows up as bands of bright "sparkles" which are annoying, but the picture is still watchable. With digital, the noise causes the picture to break up completely.

Thanks, That is what I was looking for.

keenan

08-16-06, 12:14 PM

my Wineguard Chomstar series 2000 mast mounted preamp has failed again:

this time I want to replace it with something better that is sealed from the ambient (the Wineguard is not a sealed device: this is the third one to fail over 4 years)

used for ATSC reception

any suggestions for a better preamp that will withstand a seashore enviornment?
How about using a junction box that you can seal? The example below may be too small but it works fine with my pre-amp as it's about the size of a pack of cigarettes, but you can get boxes like that in larger sizes. It's not the most elegant of solutions when it comes to attaching to the mast, but it works.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/keenanj/wpb_36.jpg

markrubin

08-16-06, 12:31 PM

keenan

08-16-06, 01:01 PM

keenan

good idea but it adds a lot of complexity up on the roof

I am thinking I may just remove the preamp on the mast and use one inside the house: the difference is about 100 feet of RG-6

I was hoping someone made a good quality preamp
What's happening to it? Is the underside open to the elements along the edge? If so, why not run a bead of silicon around the edge to completely seal it? I've done that with a CM I've used and it worked fine, although I'm not near saltwater, but I think it would work just as well.

Or is it the housing itself deteriorating?

100 feet of RG6 will give you about a 3db loss on the signal if I'm not mistaken. If you're using a pre-amp to begin with I'm assuming you have weak signals already so that may become a factor.

markrubin

08-16-06, 01:07 PM

the board itself is corroding

I never tried it without the preamp: just specified it when I had it installed

I think I will jump out the preamp and see if I can do without

geogecko

08-16-06, 01:58 PM

Hmm...well, the distrubution amp did not help the signal level any, at least, on channel 35.

Moving the antenna away from the HVAC duct also did not seem to improve the signal level, however, the annoying stuttering that was happening, has gone away. I haven't yet determined if it was due to moving the antenna, or the amp, at this point.

I like my new mounting though. I installed a 2x4 spacer between the Radio Shack attic mount, so that the antenna can sit level (not that it makes a difference), but it's much easier to adjust now.

jtbell

08-17-06, 03:19 AM

I am thinking I may just remove the preamp on the mast and use one inside the house: the difference is about 100 feet of RG-6

Right now my preamp (a Channel Master 7777) is inside the house because I haven't gotten around to getting an installer to put it outside near the antenna. I want to revamp my antenna setup anyway because the mast is rather old and I want to switch to a 2-antenna setup (one for high-VHF and one for UHF).

I think my biggest problem in the future is going to be impuse noise on the VHF channels and the lowest UHF channels. Will moving the preamp up near the antenna help with this? That is, does a significant amount of impulse noise enter via the coaxial cable coming down from the roof (in which case having the preamp near the antenna should improve things), or does it mostly come via the antenna? I think most of my impuse noise comes from external sources (power lines, transformers etc.).

Fortunately, right now only two stations that I can receive, broadcast their digital signal on a VHF channel, and I have UHF alternatives on the same network for both of them. After analog shutdown, some others will switch to VHF. All will be high VHF (7-13), including both of the ABC stations that are within range.

geogecko

08-17-06, 06:23 PM

Mainly afraid of my wife coming home one day, and screaming, "what the heck is that big, ugly contraption attached to the roof?!" I'd much rather install it outside, for one, to improve reception, and secondly, at some point, I was wanting to get a weather station, which to get accurate wind speed and direction, needs to be mounted up high and away from buildings and trees. So, an antenna mast would provide two functions.

The only other thing, is getting motivated to do it myself. I need the cable, hardware, and then probably a good full day to do a good installation, hopefully, without interrupting the incoming fall season.

I think that is my next move, to test the waters of having an antenna on the roof. I sure wish our house faced North, so that I could just mount something on the back of the house.

keenan

08-17-06, 06:39 PM

Tell the wife having an antenna on your roof is a status symbol, it means you're well off enough to have an HD-TV.

geogecko

08-17-06, 08:00 PM

Nice. I'll see where that gets me.

geogecko

08-17-06, 09:14 PM

Do you just let the coax and ground wire from a mast on the roof just go down the roof line, without attaching it? Or do you need to attach it at regular points? I'd rather just let it hang there, so I don't put unnecessary holes in the roof. It would probably only be going some 30-40 feet before going down the side of the house.

geogecko

08-17-06, 11:55 PM

LOL, nice story. All good points.

Any comments on the cabling going down the roof? Is just letting it lie there good enough?

I assume this list would do it? I plan on getting outside with my DB-8 at some point, but in the end, would probably want to replace it with a combo UHF/VHF antenna.

Okay, so I guess posting a link to eBay is not proper...anyway, the Winegard HD7084P.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062019&cp=&origkw=tripod&kw=tripod&parentPage=search

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062033&cp=&origkw=antenna+mast&kw=antenna+mast&parentPage=search

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103075&cp=2032058&f=Taxonomy%2FRSK%2F2032058&categoryId=2032058&kwCatId=2032058&kw=rg6&parentPage=search

Would that ground wire be sufficient? Also, I guess I'd need some sort of coax lightning surge suppressor?

milehighmike

08-18-06, 01:19 AM

My coax, about 20 feet of it, just lies on the roof, running at about a 45 degree angle from the bottom of the mast at the peak to the roof edge. Been that way for about 3 years. Never had a problem, don't suspect I ever will.

m_vanmeter

08-18-06, 05:49 PM

as a purely "static bleed" the small gauge ground wire will work, but personally I would install at least a 10 guage copper grounding conductor from the antenna mast to the ground rod.

Coax laying on the roof is OK. I live on top of a hill and the winds get fairly high at times. My coax is held down with zip ties in a couple of places where it was convienient to use them and very well tied off to the bottom of the mast.

Make sure you have a can of roofing mastic to goo up everything where you bolt the tripod to the roof. It's sloppy as hell, but the more the better - you don't want any pesky water leaks.

AntAltMike

08-18-06, 07:29 PM

(impulse) noise can be minimized if (you)

-use the highest gain antenna
-install preamp at the antenna
-use dual shield cable
-proper fitting installation
-minimize the cable run to as short as possibe (less exposure to the noise)
-isolate where the noise is coming from and address that

Those who have tried to minimize the white speckles on VHF lowband channels know that very little can be done to mitigate impulse noise at any price. I installed the master antenna array at National Captioning Institutes headend and could do nothing to visiby reduce the white speckles on analog channel 2. We used quad shielded RG-11, a Blonder Tongue cut-to-channel commercial antenna and a Blonder Tongue single channel amplifier.

In rare instances, you can find a local interference source and mitigate it. In most instances, the interference is coming from lots of sources which you can't pinpoint or control, and it is picked up in-band by the antennas active element, and to the extent that its source is unfavorable, it may even be amplified by the antenna's gain structure.

keenan

08-18-06, 07:43 PM

Possible link addition for the first post. They're in Canada but do ship to the USA

http://www.tinlee.com/
Deletion Filters, Cable Television Filters, CATV Filters, Traps Etc. For TV and Cable TV Systems

keeper

08-19-06, 12:24 AM

One quick question. Does the CM 4228 split into two pieces? I thought that I read that some years ago. Thanks

keeper

08-19-06, 06:29 AM

the cm4228 comes with the screen in 2 halves.

you can drill out the rivets, 4 rivets top and bottom that attach the support structure, and the hardware that attach the feed lines at the middle of the antenna. disassemble, then reassemble with screws. see pic

I allign the two screens and attach nylon ties to better support the screens from flopping about in the wind. the screens usually are a mess out of box...not alligned, on top of each other, etc.

Thanks

geogecko

08-20-06, 02:44 AM

Thanks for all the advice here. I stopped by Radio Shack, and picked up the tripod and both the 5' and 10' masts (I have 30 days to bring one back).

I ordered several lengths of RG6 off eBay, and a lightning coax surge suppressor/grounding block. Now all I need, is a #10 grounding wire, a grounding rod, and wire clamp. I also need to pick up some of that roofing sealant, and some silicone sealant for the eve.

The hard part is going to be getting the cable into the attic. I will probably be going into an eve, but the ones that are close by, are where the roof is sloping down to. Most likely, I'll have to drill a hole, and push the wire up from outside, hoping that it comes out somewhere where I can get it.

SEMIJim

08-20-06, 08:46 AM

Do you just let the coax and ground wire from a mast on the roof just go down the roof line, without attaching it?That's what I did. Then they go over the gutter, curve back in under the soffit, and run through the top pair of stand-offs about 2 feet down or so.

You especially don't want any sharp bends in the ground wire, or any more bends/curves than necessary.

Ground rod should be at the bottom of the vertical ground wire run, at or beyond the drip line. Recommendation is to put lightning arrestor close to the entry point into the home. I put mine at the bottom of the vertical run to make the ground wire run shorter and simpler.

If you don't have an F-connector tool yet, I can highlyh recommend the Paladin DataShark 70019 kit Home Depot carries.

As far as the wife pitching a bitch, well... it's your house too, you know. My wife isn't real exited about ours, but it's either that or hideous $$/mo. for cable or satellite, so...

hdtvluvr

08-20-06, 04:13 PM

milehighmike

08-20-06, 05:18 PM

Dont forget when you sink the grounding rod, that you will need to 'bond" it to your main house ground in order to meet building code and to prevent gound loops. In other words, you will need to run #10 wire from your new ground rod to the grounding rod connected to your main electrical service.

I agree with this but the thought occurred to me - why go through the trouble and expense of sinking a second ground rod if you have to run ground wire to the main electrical ground anyway? Why not just run the ground wire and skip the second ground rod?

hdtvluvr

08-20-06, 05:26 PM

You can use the main ground rod. However, one should ground the coax and antenna as close as possible to where the coax enters the house. This may not be close to the main ground. If not, add a dedicated ground rod and bond it to the house ground.

The idea is to get the static discharge from coax / antenna to the ground in the shortest distance possible. The bonding of the 2 grounds prevents any imbalances between the 2 grounds which can cause problems.

geogecko

08-20-06, 07:28 PM

Well, that stinks. I didn't think about tying the ground rods together. I might have re-thought where I was going to place the antenna, had I remembered that it's a good idea to do that.

The current ground rod, and the one I was thinking of installing, are about 40 feet apart.

Maybe one thing to note, is that I'm not sure it would need to be 10AWG wire, because really, all that's trying to be done, is to eliminate the two grounding rods from drifting apart in voltage. If lightning strikes, the "syncing" of the two rods does not matter at this point, just to get the high voltage down the antenna mast and to earth ground, does it not? But, if buying 10AWG wire anyway, why not?

One question I have, is do you guys think the tripod that I bought, can support a 15 foot mast, with antenna? I got to thinking, that the 5 foot mast alone, nor the 10 foot mast, will be high enough, initially, with the 4 bank bowtie, to get it above the roof line. (My original location, is on a lower peak of the house, in the back (north), so that it cannot be seen from the front of the house, which faces south.

I'm starting to think now, with the grounding issue, that it may be better to just mount it on the highest peak, use the 5 foot mast, original ground, and be done with it. I should have enough coax to reach that far anyway, but just finding the optimal position on that peak, to eliminate negative curb appeal, will be the hardest task. It also makes the install easier, since that particular location, is above the garage, and there does not happen to be blown-in insuallation in the attic.

I think I've just convinced myself to change the install location. I can use two carefully placed trees to sheild the view of the antenna.

Oh, one other question. I was just going to use the foot pad that is bolted to the tripod (the others have rivits), to use for my ground location. Is that good enough, or should the actual mast be used? I guess if I filed away part of the paint on the mast, where one of the bolts pushes against it, that should give me enough of a ground.

hdtvluvr

08-20-06, 07:31 PM

If I remember correctly from what I've read, 10 ga is the minimum that should be used to bond ground rods together.

You could always purchase 10ga with insulation and bury it in a slit in the ground from one rod to the other. Just keep the turns to a minimum and make curves instead of 90 deg bends.

Regarrding the tripod, I would use bolts instead of screws and use a piece of 2X4 several inches long as a backplate in the attic. The bowtie style antenna will have a large windload and the best scenario would be that it would only loosen screws, Worst case, it could pull the screws completely out of the deck. Either way may cause a leak. Of course, the higher you mount the antenna, the less force it will take to do either since the antenna will be the end of the lever.

DougRuss

08-20-06, 07:35 PM

I think I've just convinced myself to change the install location. I can use two carefully placed trees to sheild the view of the antenna.

Don't worry about the View !!

Show Pride in what you have !! :cool:

After a few weeks,you'll never notice it up there(and Neither should your NOSEY Neighbors !).

geogecko

08-20-06, 07:59 PM

:D Yeah, I know, I'm bad about thinking about stuff too much. That's why it takes me forever to do anything, but hey, I take pride in my work. That's why it took me 6 months to make two pairs of redwood shutters for my house! :cool: They look darn good though!

Those are some good points about the 2x4's in the attic. Not a bad idea. So, I assume you use a drill to drill holes through the shingles and decking? How thick is normal decking? 1/2"? I guess you have to fasten the 2x4 after you've drilled the holes, so that you know where it put it inside the attic. On top of that, you'd have to tack it down for a bit, while you went back up to the attic, to drill the holes through the 2x4.

If mounting it on the new location, I can just use the 5' mast, so that should reduce the load on the tripod arms. I think I may just order the winegard antenna, that way, if I don't finish the installation in time, I can at least still have "decent" reception, until I do get it done. While the tilting action of the tripod is nice, I'm not sure it would be useful for me, since the pitch of my roof, and the location on the roof, would make it almost impossible to climb down to the end of the mast, once it is tilted down on the roof.

AntAltMike

08-20-06, 08:14 PM

Dont forget when you sink the grounding rod, that you will need to 'bond" it to your main house ground in order to meet building code and to prevent gound loops. In other words, you will need to run #10 wire from your new ground rod to the grounding rod connected to your main electrical service.
The mast must be grounded with 10 gauge copper, 8 gauge aluminum or 17 gauge copper clad steel wire. Any auxilliary ground rod driven to develop a more direct path to the earth must be bonded to the building's ground electrode system with 6 gauge copper wire.

geogecko

08-20-06, 09:19 PM

I think I'm going to order the HD7084P. The bowtie DB-8 would probably be enough, but if I'm going to this trouble to mount the antenna, I wouldn't mind getting ABC, and I don't think the DB-8, even mounted on the roof, will pull it in.

I thought about using the ground with the coax, but I couldn't tell what gauge the ground wire was (seemed like it was smaller than 10 AWG, not that it matters, most inspectors I've seen, don't do that great of a job inspecting things such as that. They are more concerned with water, HVAC, drainage, foundation, etc. Guess if you paid one enough, they might point that out. Since I already ordered the coax, I'll probably just get some 10 AWG, and zip tie them together about ever foot or two.

Sounds like a good install, Rick. I think I'll go with the lag screws, for now, unless something happens to rip the thing off the roof.

Ouch, 6 AWG to tie the points together! Now I know I'm not going to mount it remotely. I'm going straight to the main ground. It is funny to see all the boxes on the outside of the house. The only two wires that go straight to the ground rod directly, are the breaker box, and the telephone box. The Verizon FiOS, sprinkler system, and old Comcast cable ground, all are just jumpered over to the electrical meter.

I just scoped out the new mounting location. It's going to be great. It is covered from VIEW only (does not effect the path of the antenna), from 3 trees!!! Basically, there is only a couple places in the front yard that you can stand, that you'd be able to see it. It will be great when we try and sell the house, because pictures could be taken that don't show it.

Thanks for all the help, I know I'll probably be back within a couple weeks to report on how the installation went.

hdtvluvr

08-20-06, 09:32 PM

6 gauge copper wire.

Thanks for this info. I had thought it was all supposed to be 10ga.

geogecko

08-21-06, 08:13 PM

Well...good old Home Depot doesn't stock 10 AWG solid wire, so I ended up buying solid 12 AWG. I got to thinking, why not just use two 12 AWG wires. According to a wire gauge chart I found, two 12 AWG wires is almost equal in size to a single 6 AWG wire. I think that should do it.

I guess you want to keep away from stranded wire, due to corrosion around the grounding rod. I found these neat little copper grounding 'tabs' that have a hole in one side, then have a little block of copper on the other, with a set screw. I'm planning on using one of these to attach the ground wire to the tripod.

Hopefully, my antenna will make it here before Friday, but I doubt it. UPS ground is usually rather slow. At least I could attach the ground clap to the rod, and maybe get a coax to come out of the attic to the outside of the house...

AntAltMike

08-21-06, 08:57 PM

The ground wire for the mast doesn't have to be solid, nor does the 6 gauge bonding wire. The wire for grounding the outer conductor of the coax as near as possible to the point at which it enters the building used to have to be solid and insulated, but I think they did away with those two requirements in the 2002 revision of the Code, of which I do not have a copy.

geogecko

08-23-06, 08:47 PM

Thanks Mike. Went back and got the 10 AWG stranded. It is pretty thick stranding anyways, so it should be fairly resistant to the elements.

One last question before installing this thing (the antenna got here, man, I didn't realize there was so much work to "unfold" it!). If I were to install the antenna in the attic, would it be better to be pointing it at a wall with decking and shingles, or at a wall that just had backing board, and bricks on the outside?

I may give the DB-8 one more try in the new (bricks) location, and see what the reception looks like, before mounting the Winegard on the roof. If it gets better, I may consider just mounting the Winegard in the attic. I'm just wondering if the DB-8, being multidirectional, may be picking up multipath in the attic, versus the unidirectional 7084P, which may solve the problem I'm having all together.

Comments?

st8kout

08-23-06, 10:35 PM

I've been trying to use a CM4221 in a somewhat fringe area. It's not that the stations are far away, it's the buildings surrounding me that, no doubt, are the problem.

I just ordered a CM7777 and 100' of RG6 to try to do something about it. This should give me room to roam to find a good spot for it outside.

As it is now it's hanging on the wall next to the tv where sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. It's like some mysterious, more art than science, hocus pocus trying to get good reception. Heck, my CBS station comes in 100% when I just lay it down on the floor;) I tried the attic and that was a total bust, couldn't get squat. I even tried laying it down in the attic just above where I laid it down on the floor--nothing.

Another thing. Why is it so sensitive to any movement of the balun and coax? Moving the balun even half an inch between the connecting terminals will result in good reception of some channels and bad reception of others. Is it because the signal is not strong enough? I'm thinking of drilling a hole in the mast so I can feed the balun through the mast and connect it to the coax on the backside. Maybe this will minimize the feedline's influence on the antenna. Ideally, they should allow you to run the coax down through the mast, but you can't because of the connecting rivets.

Now all I need is cooler weather to work outside:)

geogecko

08-24-06, 08:02 PM

I give up. I'm just going to install it on the roof. I was going to try it in the attic, but now seeing how much effort is required to assemble it, it would probably take me a couple hours, just to assemble and disassemble it, if it did not work well enough in the attic.

The 7084P is, well, wow, very large. I have the two halves, (back side only half assembled), assembled, sitting in the garage. We'll see what my wife says, when she comes home tonight.

Okay, I thought the wide bars were supposed to be pointed at the towers, but it appears that the widest bars go away from the towers, correct?

SEMIJim

08-24-06, 08:34 PM

Okay, I thought the wide bars were supposed to be pointed at the towers, but it appears that the widest bars go away from the towers, correct?Yes, the "pointy" end is pointed at the signal source.

And the "bars" to which you refer are properly called "elements." :)

geogecko

08-24-06, 08:42 PM

Thank you sir.

It's funny, they keep using all these terms, such as UHF directors, reflector booms, expecting your average joe to know what they are...

...wife just got home. "That's going to look tacky..."

Oh, well.

geogecko

08-24-06, 09:47 PM

LOL. =)

Yes, sir!

geogecko

08-25-06, 11:34 AM

Gotta go to a meeting now, but it's already blasted hot out there. I spent a couple hours assembling the rest of the antenna, and sawing about a foot off the 5 foot mast. Then I got the ground wire attached to the tripod, cable about where it needs to go, both zip tied to the tripod.

Hopefully, when I get back, I will be able to zip tie about 15 feet of the two cables together, which will be the part running down the roof, and then depending on how hot it is, may see about mounting at least the tripod on the roof.

I think I'll have to take the tripod and antenna up as two pieces, because it would be too clumbsy to take them both up there, put together.

I'm also wondering if I got enough coax. Looks like I may have to get some more to make it...

Sorry I reported back before getting it up! Oh, yeah, I think it's funny that they tell you to try and hit the rafters with the lag screws. Yeah, right. The spacing isn't right but to hit just one rafter. I think the decking will be good enough.

geogecko

08-25-06, 03:11 PM

To align, rotate mast in tripod, or antenna around mast?

geogecko

08-25-06, 05:07 PM

Well, as luck would have it, guess what came in the mail today? An updated version of the "Design Guidelines and Review Procedures for Residential Modifications," i.e., HOA restrictions.

Under the heading, "Disallowed Items at ..."

Shall include but not be limited to the following:
...
Exterior antenna of any kind with the exception of miniature satellite dishes as detailed in these Guidelines.
...

Now, before we jump the gun, and everyone posts this link (unless this is outdated):
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

There are some questions to answer.

First, what exactly does this mean?

Q: What types of antennas are covered by the rule?

A: The rule applies to the following types of antennas:

(1) A "dish" antenna that is one meter (39.37") or less in diameter (or any size dish if located in Alaska) and is designed to receive direct broadcast satellite service, including direct-to-home satellite service, or to receive or transmit fixed wireless signals via satellite.

(2) An antenna that is one meter or less in diameter or diagonal measurement and is designed to receive video programming services via broadband radio service (wireless cable) or to receive or transmit fixed wireless signals other than via satellite.

(3) An antenna that is designed to receive local television broadcast signals. Masts higher than 12 feet above the roofline may be subject to local permitting requirements.

In addition, antennas covered by the rule may be mounted on "masts" to reach the height needed to receive or transmit an acceptable quality signal (e.g. maintain line-of-sight contact with the transmitter or view the satellite). Masts higher than 12 feet above the roofline may be subject to local permitting requirements for safety purposes. Further, masts that extend beyond an exclusive use area may not be covered by this rule.

I'm guessing that #2 is not the one that applies, but #3 (I hope)?

Because, at this point, my HD7084P is much larger than 1 meter in diameter, 131" to be exact.

Please help me understand this, before mounting the tripod. At this point, I'm stopping work. Also, if I do go ahead with this, because the FCC says that HOA cannot impose these restrictions, do I have a long battle ahead of me, or get in danger of being on the blacklist or something?

milehighmike

08-25-06, 05:39 PM

#3 is applicable to OTA tv. Apparently, the author of your HOA guidelines didn't do any fine tuning of the wording homework. An OTA antenna is not a "miniature satellite dish" and I don't think a reference to Alaska in necessary in Texas!

DougRuss

08-25-06, 07:28 PM

I painted the dish pole brown to make it look like a tree.

Yep.... that sure looks like a Tree to Me !!...........................

maibe aftwer aphew beirs ?

:D

Now this looks like a Tree:

http://www.nepalwireless.net/images/photos/small_dish_antenna_nangi.jpg :D

geogecko

08-25-06, 08:49 PM

You all are crazy.

So, do they have ground to say I can't do it, or not? I spent about 2 hours this evening, folding enough of the antenna up to be able to get it into the attic, on the tripod, and still no dice. Strangely enough, it's almost exactly like the reception of the DB-8, minus the fact that I was able to get channel 9.

So, I've now got it folded back up, out of the attic, and in the garage, awaiting an attempt tomorrow, to just put it on the roof, and see if I get any better reception. I'm going to drill the eve hole to get the coax in, set the tripod up top, with antenna, and see what my reception looks like.

AntAltMike

08-25-06, 09:11 PM

To align, rotate mast in tripod, or antenna around mast?
This question reads like a set-up for a Polish joke.

AntAltMike

08-25-06, 11:44 PM

...So, do they have ground to say I can't do it, or not? I spent about 2 hours this evening, folding enough of the antenna up to be able to get it into the attic, on the tripod, and still no dice.

As my father's army sargent used to say, "We can't make you do anything... but we can make you wish you did".

Restrictions that prohibit, or unreasonably delay the installation of or increase the cost of an off-air antenna installation are UNENFORCEABLE, as long as the antenna is attached to and over a surface that is under your exclusive control, the mast is no taller than 12 feet, and it is not in a Historic District. But someday you may need to enlist the support of those who oppose your antenna installation to get the HOA to pay for something that you want done...

geogecko

08-26-06, 11:26 AM

Oh, well. Already too hot outside, and just got off the roof, and it won't be me installing this antenna, that's for sure. I'd need to make at least 2-3 trips to the mounting location, and as hard as it was to hang Christmas lights, I now remember why I didn't put lights on this particular peak.

I figure I've already got too many negatives going against me, I guess I'll have to live with the reception I already have, or hire someone to do it.

cpcat

08-26-06, 04:18 PM

Got this a few weeks ago. It replaces a Research Communications 9250 HDTV LNA I had been using for UHF. The HDTV LNA was apparently fried by a near-strike or a power surge.

For a little background, I'm in the fringe with closest major cities 65, 70, 110, and 135 miles away. I have only one full power PBS station at around 45 miles and another full power CBS, PBS at 55, but otherwise anything around me is low power or FM.

I went back to a CM 7777 initially after the 9250 went down. Performance was obviously inferior with almost constant dropouts on a digital 30 from Knoxville 65 miles away which was really annoying. I'm not saying the 7777 isn't excellent for most, mind you, but for me it wasn't working. The 9250 had given me consistent performance and I'd gotten accustomed to it.

I really didn't want to spend the bucks for another 9250 so I took another look at the Sitco PA24 for broadband UHF. It seemed good via specs and also more robust than the 9250 so I called Sitco and bought it. It comes with a +24V power supply made by Triax (Denmark). The PA24 itself is also stamped "made in Denmark". Sitco is located in Porland, OR.

Shipment/ordering was a breeze. The first thing you notice about the PA24 is how rugged it is. This is obviously a commercial product and I'd expect high reliability. Installation was easy except I had to modify the mast clamp slightly to accept a 3/4 inch mast. It's designed for larger diameters. Initial performance was good but only slightly better than the CM 7777. I can say I was a little dissappointed. I then tried it with a front-end filter (high port of a low/hi separator) and performance improved significantly. Basically, the performance I think nearly equals that of the 9250. My channel 30 is back without dropouts. Analogs seem noticeably better with the PA24 over the 7777 and probably equivialent to the 9250.

Overall, I've had fairly extensive experience with 4 high performance UHF preamps in the last couple of years. The CM 7777, RC 9248, RC 9250, and now the Sitco PA24. I still use the RC 9248 for high band vhf. I'd rate them accordingly overall for long distance UHF performance:

RC 9250
Sitco PA24
RC 9248
CM 7777

The advantage to the Sitco for ruggedness at least on initial impressions. I guess time will tell for sure.

Sitco PA24 Broadband UHF (http://www.simplicitytool.com/preamplifier.htm)

geogecko

08-26-06, 04:25 PM

LOL, now that's an antenna setup.

So you think the lower frequency UHF was causing your preamp to get saturated, therefore, not allowing your weaker frequencies to be amplified?

cpcat

08-26-06, 04:43 PM

So you think the lower frequency UHF was causing your preamp to get saturated, therefore, not allowing your weaker frequencies to be amplified?

Most likely it was FM causing the problem. A high/lo separator separates high band vhf and up (including UHF) from low band. Using the high port is a very effective way of trapping FM. Basically everything below channel 7 is filtered out. The high band vhf part of the antenna system is further diplexed after that with a UHF/VHF diplexer. I also use the high port of a hi/lo separator in front of the high band amplifier.

MAX HD

08-26-06, 06:47 PM

Got this a few weeks ago. It replaces a Research Communications 9250 HDTV LNA I had been using for UHF. The HDTV was apparently fried by a near-strike or a power surge.

For a little background, I'm in the fringe with closest major cities 65, 70, 110, and 135 miles away. I have only one full power PBS station at around 45 miles and another full power CBS, PBS at 55, but otherwise anything around me is low power or FM.

I went back to a CM 7777 initially after the 9250 went down. Performance was obviously inferior with almost constant dropouts on a digital 30 from Knoxville 65 miles away which was really annoying. I'm not saying the 7777 isn't excellent for most, mind you, but for me it wasn't working. The 9250 had given me consistent performance and I'd gotten accustomed to it.

I really didn't want to spend the bucks for another 9250 so I took another look at the Sitco PA24 for broadband UHF. It seemed good via specs and also more robust than the 9250 so I called Sitco and bought it. It comes with a +24V power supply made by Triax (Denmark). The PA24 itself is also stamped "made in Denmark". Sitco is located in Porland, OR.

Shipment/ordering was a breeze. The first thing you notice about the PA24 is how rugged it is. This is obviously a commercial product and I'd expect high reliability. Installation was easy except I had to modify the mast clamp slightly to accept a 3/4 inch mast. It's designed for larger diameters. Initial performance was good but only slightly better than the CM 7777. I can say I was a little dissappointed. I then tried it with a front-end filter (high port of a low/hi separator) and performance improved significantly. Basically, the performance I think nearly equals that of the 9250. My channel 30 is back without dropouts. Analogs seem noticeably better with the PA24 over the 7777 and probably equivialent to the 9250.

Overall, I've had fairly extensive experience with 4 high performance UHF preamps in the last couple of years. The CM 7777, RC 9248, RC 9250, and now the Sitco PA24. I still use the RC 9248 for high band vhf. I'd rate them accordingly overall for long distance UHF performance:

RC 9250
Sitco PA24
RC 9248
CM 7777

The advantage to the Sitco for ruggedness at least on initial impressions. I guess time will tell for sure.

Sitco PA24 Broadband UHF (http://www.simplicitytool.com/preamplifier.htm)

OK,now how much was it?

I've had the 9250 back in the air for about 3 weeks,but I disconnect everything if any storms are in the area.It does work well....when it works!

cpcat

08-26-06, 07:47 PM

468.00 including the power supply and 2nd day air shipping.

I looked back and I paid 163.00 sterling for the 9250 including the ps, weatherproof case and shipping.

Hopefully I'm paying for reliability. :o I guess I was remembering the 9250 costing more.

I may have to double check my 9250 to see if it works. I thought yours was fried too?

AntAltMike

08-26-06, 08:41 PM

Yep.... that sure looks like a Tree to Me !!...........................

maibe aftwer aphew beirs ?

:D

Now this looks like a Tree:

http://www.nepalwireless.net/images/photos/small_dish_antenna_nangi.jpg :D
This reminds me of something I think I heard either David Brenner or Gary Shandling say in an interview. He was talking about the moose hunters wearing green clothing with irregular black lines drawn on them so that if the moose saw them, it would think they were trees, and he asked, "If a Moose came into my livingroom with a picture of a refrigerator taped to it, do you think I'd say, 'Look. There's a refrigerator!' ?"

st8kout

08-27-06, 02:24 PM

Most likely it was FM causing the problem. A high/lo separator separates high band vhf and up (including UHF) from low band. Using the high port is a very effective way of trapping FM. Basically everything below channel 7 is filtered out. The high band vhf part of the antenna system is further diplexed after that with a UHF/VHF diplexer. I also use the high port of a hi/lo separator in front of the high band amplifier.

While a $60 CM7777 cannot be expected to do as well as the other preamps you have, did you use the FM trap on the 7777? Also, doesn't it also have two separate amp inputs, one for VHF and the other for UHF?

keenan

08-27-06, 02:57 PM

Yep.... that sure looks like a Tree to Me !!...........................

maibe aftwer aphew beirs ?

:D

Now this looks like a Tree:

http://www.nepalwireless.net/images/photos/small_dish_antenna_nangi.jpg :D
Naw, now this one really looks like a tree. :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/keenanj/DSC_0028.jpg

cpcat

08-27-06, 04:14 PM

While a $60 CM7777 cannot be expected to do as well as the other preamps you have, did you use the FM trap on the 7777? Also, doesn't it also have two separate amp inputs, one for VHF and the other for UHF?

It has an internal FM trap as well as separate vhf/uhf inputs. Using the uhf input and having the internal switch on "separate" engages an internal uhf/vhf diplexer so in effect it already has a front end filter. I have tried it just for kicks with an added filter and it doesn't make any difference. The internal FM trap on the CM 7777 does make a difference if using the vhf input or if it's configured for combined vhf/uhf input.

None of the other amps listed employ any front-end filtering so you have to provide your own if necessary.

The newest RC amp (9253 I think) looks to be a 9250 with an added front-end filter.

http://www.researchcomms.com/hdtv.html

AntAltMike

08-28-06, 04:45 AM

When you are trying to process distant signals, it is always a good idea to have a spectrum analyzer available. I once serviced a master antenna system on a property adjacent to a tower which was experiencing a terrible amplifier overload. My spectrum analyzer showed that something was broadcasting at 369Mhz and, just through ingress, it was 20dB stronger than the other balanced signals. Fortunately for me, this was in a 36 channel private cable system, so I called Eagle Comtronics and they sent me half a dozen channel cable channel 42 lowpass filters (passes to 336 Mhz cleanly and has about 50dB of rejection from about 350 Mhz) and I installed one on the input side of each distribution amplifier to eliminate the overload.

Now, suppose a residential antenna system was trying to receive UHF signals in that locality. How deep and how sharp do you think the highpass edge of a UHF pre-amp's input filter is? I know from experience that I can pass enough 330 Mhz signal from a UHF remote control through the UHF side of a VHF/UHF separator/combiner for it to satisfy the input needs of a receiver, because I sometimes do that so that I can send the UHF remote control signal back to a receiver on the same coax that is furnishing a modulated channel 3 signal to a distant TV, so I doubt that the input filter of a preamp is any sharper or deeper than that. I've also sent cable channels up to about 29 or 30 (about 250 to 260Mhz) through the lowpass side of a VHF/UHF separator, so there are broadcast MMDS signals that will surely pass through the internal lowpass filter on a VHF amplifier if it is similarly contoured.

Eagle Comtronics, Microwave Filter and Communications and Energy Corp. all have off-the-shelf "tier traps" that can shore up the edges of your broadcast bands that are available off-the-shelf and can be bought in single quantities for about $20 each. A channel 13 lowpass filter and a cable channel 65 or slightly lower high pass filter will definitively eliminate a lot of possible ingress range, and will do so cheaper than paying someone a couple hundred bucks to check your reception with a spectrum analyzer, and even if you paid someone to do that test, the interfering carrier might be intermittent and not present when your spectrum was analyzed. If you know the highest UHF channel you need to pass, you might benefit from a UHF lowpass filter as well. I think Channel Vision has a cable channel 104 or 105 lowpass filter available from their retailers that passes everything up to about UHF channel 49 cleanly and you can probably live with its channel 50 and 51 performance unless they are your most distant channels.

Midband reject filters, also called A-I filters (120 -174Mhz) tend to degrade the visual carrier of channel 7 by about 5 dB or so, but my market has strong broadcast interference that lands in cable channel 20, which is just three channels below broadcast channel 7, and I doubt that consumer preamps effectively trap out midband interference, if they trap it out at all.

The insrtion loss of these cylindrical, tier traps has always measured under 1dB when I have checked it, and their RF shielding is exceptional.

st8kout

08-28-06, 12:03 PM

I found I could improve the performance of my CM 4221 by running the coax and balun inside the mast. The only expense was a rubber gasket for the hole from Home Depot.

It would have been nice if the pigtails of the balun had been about 1/4 inch longer, but it does work as is, and overall works much better than it did before. I get a noticeable improvment in reception. Maybe I can find a balun with longer pigtails, or lengthen them.

I think the feedline outside the mast, no matter how I ran it, was detuning the antenna. Why didn't Channel Master think of this?

http://members.roadfly.com/postal-guy/antenna.jpg

Rammitinski

08-28-06, 01:07 PM

This question reads like a set-up for a Polish joke. Hey! Hey!

I resemble that remark! :D

(Actually, I haven't got an iota of Slav in me ;).)

geogecko

08-28-06, 02:07 PM

Hey! Hey!

I resemble that remark! :D

(Actually, I haven't got an iota of Slav in me ;).)

LOL...yeah, I'm like 1/4th or 1/8th Polish...or something...but German...etc...

Davinleeds

08-28-06, 06:28 PM

ctdish

08-28-06, 07:49 PM

I measured the loss on the baluns that came with CM 4248 antennas and they were about 0.5 dB at channel 50.
John

st8kout

08-28-06, 11:19 PM

This is something I will try on my CM4228. Thanks. Info on the HDTVprimer.com website talks about the balun taking 3db and suggests using 300ohm from antenna to a preamp accepting 300 to achieve minimal loss. Any experience with this? Thanks

When I was shopping for a preamp I wondered why more preamps didn't have a 300 ohm input. Everyone seemed to like the CM7777 so I went with that. Just got it this afternoon and I'm sorry to report that so far, it makes no difference, at all. Period. I went back and forth with the comparisons--no difference. My first thought was that it was not working, so I tried using just the vhf input (after throwing the switch) and it did improve my local ch 2-1 which is at the top end of the vhf spectrum, but then all the other channels were suppressed.

To add insult to injury, the one I got from Solid Signal is obviously a returned item, given the scratches of being previously mounted on a mast. I guess the former owner didn't see any difference either. This was supposed to be a new item, not an open box sale. Thanks a lot Solid Signal--NOT! You'll won't be getting any more of my money. You can stick your 15% restocking fee...sorry, I just needed to vent:)

geogecko

08-29-06, 12:07 AM

LOL, I got my 7777 from them too, and it was missing the wall screws for the power injector! I kept reading the instructions, and it said they were inlcuded, but no matter where I looked, I couldn't find them... Not a big deal, since I didn't mount that part to a wall anyway.

st8kout

08-29-06, 01:14 PM

Now that you mention it, I'm also missing the same screws. *sigh*

geogecko

08-29-06, 02:26 PM

Now that you mention it, I'm also missing the same screws. *sigh*

Maybe it was supposed to read, "Not Provided." :rolleyes:

Rammitinski

08-29-06, 02:48 PM

I could go for the obvious joke here, but I'll manage to resist.

DougRuss

08-29-06, 04:40 PM

Now that you mention it, I'm also missing the same screws. *sigh*

It takes a man to admit to that !! :D :D

st8kout

08-29-06, 09:06 PM

(lol)

tyromark

08-29-06, 11:19 PM

AntAltMike

08-29-06, 11:30 PM

You know, this is really odd.
I got a FMSS omnidirectional FM antenna from Solid Signal, and it was missing the balun, which the instructions described as included. I called and they sent one promptly, apologized, etc. but these reports are awfullllllllly coincidental.....
When I buy something cheap through the mail, I really don't give a damn whether it is new or not, unless it is a prophylactic.

st8kout

08-30-06, 07:31 PM

When I buy something cheap through the mail, I really don't give a damn whether it is new or not, unless it is a prophylactic.

Not me. It should be as advertised. If it says open-box, then I know what to expect. I gave Solid Signal the lowest rating available on the BizRate survey which btw, was a big mistake for taking the bait for their survey. I'm suddenly getting bombarded with spam. You cannot even unsubscribe from BizRate. You click the Unsubscribe link and all you get are more opportunities for more surveys.

Davinleeds

08-30-06, 07:33 PM

Any tried tilting the antenna (CM 4228) , or any other, up towards the tree (horizon) line ? This is another suggestion I've read. My antennna protection is up to date.

dabl

09-01-06, 09:42 AM

I'd like some advice on using antenna preamps and distribution amps.

I'm about 3-4 miles from most of the transmitters in my area I use for getting off the air digital signal via antenna. My Lat-Long is: 39.87 (39°52') | -86.1 (-86°8')

I have Zenith Silver Sensor antenna in my attic currently feeding a single TV, a Samsung HL-R6167. I get pretty good results with all the channels but do see occaisional drop outs on several at certain times of the season/day.

I also have regular analog cable and currently split that 3 ways, 1 to a cable modem, 1 to the HL-R6167 and 1 to another TV.

I'll soon have a need to feed more sources since I'm adding an HTPC to the mix. The PC will have a max of 2 HD tuners and 2 analog tuners.

I'll want to distribute my antenna signal to 3 places: the Samsung TV and the 2 PC tuners.

I'll want to distribute the analog cable to 4 places: the cable modem, the Samsung TV, and the 2 TV tuners. I don't care about the other tv for now....

I just started looking at preamps and distribution amps and have seen some recent talk about the Winegard HDP-269 which seems like it might be a good choice for my application to use for the antenna pre-amp given my close proximity and the HDP-269's particular features. I'd be interested in any comments and/or specific other recommendations about that.

I'm wondering about using a distribution amp following the HDP-269 and for the analog cable. I was thinking that I could then get rid of the splitter completely and that that would be a good thing. Is my thinking correct on this?

I was looking at the Channel Master 3044. Would that model be good choice? Maybe there's something better? I was also looking at the Channel Plus
DA-506BID. Are the antenna preamps and the distribution amps a 'get what you pay for' thing? Will a DA-506BID be better than a 3044. What about Radio Shack or Recoton? I was thinking in the case that one or more of these devices actually made things WORSE it might be nice to try out something I could get locally and could return without a restocking fee etc.

I'm unclear about one issue in general about using a preamp with an attic antenna, the physical proximity of the AC power outlet to the antenna itself.
I haven't found very good clear instruction at the various antenna preamp manufacturer websites I've checked (Channel Master, Winegard etc) but I
gather that in most cases an antenna preamp configuration assumes that AC power is NOT located particularly close to the actual antenna?

Would there be a significant advantage to having AC power in my attic near the antenna so the cable run from the preamp to the antenna could be kept very short? I could accomplish this easily as I have a friend who's an electrician and could easily install an AC outlet in the attic for the preamp if it would be a significant help. Would this make any difference depending on the model (Winegard HDP-269 vs Winegard 8700 vs Channel Master 7777) etc?

Re: my antenna and occaisional drop outs, I'm wondering if those are possibly multipath related. I've heard that some PC tuner cards can actually handle multipath issues significantly better than some TV tuners so I was hoping that I might see that kind of improvement on the HDTV inputs. On the otherhand I'd have no problem springing for a better/more appropriate antenna for an attic mount if it would be worthwhile and would be all ears on that

thanks for any comments,

--Don

abbygayle

09-01-06, 10:14 AM

AntAltMike

09-01-06, 11:31 AM

I'm looking at rotors right now. Are radio antenna rotors and tv antenna rotors basically the same? Will they do the same job? I have a UHF and VHF antenna that I'll need to mount. Preferably an automatic rotor if those work ok, but I didn't know if I need to be sure that I DON'T get a radio antenna rotor by accident.

If you are combining a vhf and a uhf the standard popular tv rotor, the cm 9521A is not enough rotor

call norm's rotor service for the better choice for your system.

http://www.rotorservice.com

The Radio Shack and Channel Master rotors are physically about the same. In fact, I think they buy the rotor mechanism from the same manufacturer.

The only cheap rotor product I personally have ever had trouble with was the controller box with the Centronnix rotors, but they don't even make those any more.

A few years ago, there was a temporary rotor supply problem because of some problem the consumer rotors were having and their manufacture was temporarily suspended, but I have heard no complaints since then.

The only time someone might have a problem with residential-grade rotors is if they develop a significant strain on the rotor, which can happen with multiple antennas or antennas with reflector screens (Channel Master 4221, 4228), but ordinarily, if you cut the mast piece that the antenna is mounted to short (typically, 2 feet or less, you shouldn't have a problem.

If you have to make it much longer because of the vertical span of your antenna array, you can buy a thrust bearing for, I think, around $40 that will solve the leverage problem.

The "better choice" rotor in the furnished link costs over $1,200. I'd move to another house in another market where I wouldn't need such an antenna before I'd pay $1,200 for an antenna rotor.

DougRuss

09-01-06, 11:44 AM

If you are combining a vhf and a uhf the standard popular tv rotor, the cm 9521A is not enough rotor

call norm's rotor service for the better choice for your system.

http://www.rotorservice.com

It should be enough to handle it!

It's not like he's going to be swinging the antenna around every hour or so.( your not are you ? :D )

I had a Large Combo on mine for several years,before a large tree branch took out the antenna, never had a problem. Even with the Brutal Midwest Winters.

geogecko

09-01-06, 12:57 PM

dabl

09-01-06, 02:46 PM

dabl.

(I'll disclaim this, since I do not claim to be an expert.)

If you are living at a max distance of only 4 miles, I'm thinking a pre-amp isn't going to do you much good, as your signal strength should be pretty much maxed out. (What do you see as signal strengths?).

I see, interesting. I'm not at home to check. I also wrote them down. The signal strength display on the Samsung is a simple incremental segmented bar type graph without any numerics, but in general the number of lit up segments averaged 8 out of 10 so perhaps I'm doing ok there.

The way most pre-amplifiers work, is that they have two pieces. The first piece, the amplifier, goes as close to the antenna as possible. The second piece, is sometimes referred to as a power injector, and consists of a DC block on one side (the side you connect to your TV or capture card), and then an A/C adapter power brick, or input for power, which it then sends out on the other side of the coax, towards the antenna. (In other words, it's sending the DC power for the amplifier over the coax.) Then, the amplifier receives the DC power, and also has another DC block on the other side of the amplifier, to prevent DC from going to the antenna.

So, long story short, you don't need an outlet close to the pre-amp, in most cases.?).

extremely helpful and makes perfect sense thanks!

My initial guess, is that a distribution amplifier would be what you are after. I'd just go with a single in, single out, amplifier, and then use passive splitters after the amp.

Ok, but is there some reason I shouldn't simply get a 1 in four out distribution amplifier for each source (antenna, cable) given the number of display devices I want to feed? Is there some disadvantage of using one of those over passive splitters? To me pasive splitters seem like a really lame way of doing things. I can't stand the idea of reducing a signal level that already seems anemic. I know that the first 'high quality 2 Ghz splitter' I bought was completely useless because the cable modem wouldn't function with it. I know the cable modem can only withstand something like a 3db loss in signal and uses a 'special' leg of my 3 way splitter that only presents such a small loss versus something like 7db on the other legs etc. The whole passive splitter thing seems to me to be a very feeble solution and a powered multitap distribution box sounds (with presumeably no or much less loss on each leg sounds MUCH more appealing. But that's why I'm asking, perhaps there's something I'm missing......

geogecko

09-01-06, 03:03 PM

If all of your components are located in one place, then a distribution amplifier with multiple output ports would work well. The problem you get into, is that if you need to amplify the signal, it is better to have all the legs coming off the amplifier to be the same length, so that the signals relative to each other, are the same. If you have 3 sources in one place, and the other one 100 or more feet away, then the one furthest away will have a weaker signal.

Usually, the best way to run signals through a house, is to locate the incoming coax signal, near the center of all connection points. Then, if amplification is needed, make sure it is done at this point. From that point, split the signal off to go to different locations in the house, trying to keep a single coax going to more than one location, then splitting it at the last possible place, of course, keeping the two legs of the split, the same length.

It's not always easy to do this, especially in a house already built.

You would probably be okay running a multiple port distribution amplifier, since it sounds like most of your stuff will be in one place. What would be nice, is a distribution amp that had individual attenuators (or gain adjustments) built-in to each outgoing port, so that it wouldn't matter how long the legs are, relative to each other. You could tune each leg to have the same signal strength.

This guide as a lot of useful information in it.

http://www.channelmaster.com/pdf/AntInstallGuide.pdf#search=%22antenna%20installation%20pdf%2 2

goldrich

09-01-06, 03:38 PM

dabl,

We're not too far apart, as I live just south of Carmel. Also, I'm 3 miles from the WTHR tower and around 5 miles from most of the other towers. My past tests with distribution amps has been disastrous. WAY TOO MUCH overload from the nearby locals. I'm testing a unit now (at work now, and I don't remember brand/model info) which even allows for manual adjustments, and even with the gain turned down all the way there is still too much signal overload.

The only thing similar to a distribution amp that I've had success with is the Motorola Signal Booster which you can see at the CC website.

Send me a private message sometime if you'd care to chat more. Thanks.

Steve

dabl

09-01-06, 04:16 PM

Geogecko and Steve, thanks mucho for the info, greatly appreciated.

Steve, you'll no doubt see my cross post in the local Indy HDTV AVS forum (won't make a habit of that) and I sent you a PM.

--Don

st8kout

09-01-06, 07:47 PM

FOLLOW UP:

After berating Solid Signal for sending me an open box preamp instead of a new one, I feel it's only right for me to post their apologetic email I received after they read my Bizrate comments about them.

=========================================
"We truly apologize for your mishap. Sometimes our products come tested from the manufacturer and we, like you, expect them to be new and unblemished.

We care about our customers and we value our customer service reputation. May we send you a new replacement item with a prepaid freight label? All you would have to do is send back the item you currently have with the prepaid label we send you. Alternatively, if your item is already in use, and, since you feel you received an "Open Box Item”, we can change the charge amount to our true open box price of $42.99.

Please advise me on your decision
Again, we apologize and hope you are willing to test Solid Signal's desire to be your online source for consumer electronics."

============================================

Since mine "is already in use" I'll opt for the reduced price (although I still prefer to buy most everything new).

I have to give them props for trying to make good:)