What's the deal with these anchor bolts that the J-Mount came with? How do you install these? Drill a hole the same size as the hole in the J-Mount foot, and then jam them in and tighten them down?

I've never seen anything like them. I was expecting lag screws...

Is this suitable for roof mounting? I would guess I'd want to be careful to *not* hit any rafters in this case...

Think those anchor bolts are for if you have to mount in Brick or Concrete?
Take a pic to show us.

Think those anchor bolts are for if you have to mount in Brick or Concrete?
Take a pic to show us.

I hope not. Seems a little strange they would provide that, versus something to mount it in wood...

http://www.thebentzhome.com/pics/avs/bolt.jpg

I believe those are called tapcons. They are designed for concrete/brick only. With the force they can exert, I would not use them on brick personally.

No...those are Sleeve Anchors. Used for Concrete or Brick.

Sleeve Anchor (http://www.ramset-redhead.com/RH/dynabolt_prod01.asp)

You'll have to buy some "Lag Screws" if they didn't come with it,if your mounting into Wood !



BTW:

These are Tapcons (http://www.ramset-redhead.com/RH/tap_prod01.asp)

Hmm...guess I'll be making a trip to Lowe's then.

Seems a bit odd that they would give you mason attachement hardware, with an HD antenna J-Mount, does it not? I mean, I'd figure most people would be mounting into wood...

So, anyone know what size lag screws I should get? These sleeve anchors are 1/4", so I assume I should get 1/4" lag screws, about 2 inches long.

Thanks for the assistance.

If the Hole Diameters on the Mounting Foot is only 1/4" then go for that, but a 3/8" would probably be better( you would have to drill them out some)?

If the Hole Diameters on the Mounting Foot is only 1/4" then go for that, but a 3/8" would probably be better( you would have to drill them out some)?

Will do. I'll just take the mounting foot with me, and see what fits. I might consider drilling them out, but I assume the mounting foot and mast are made of steel, so if I do drill it out, it could expose the metal, and allow it to rust if it wasn't sealed. I bought some roofing sealant, so I plan on gooping the screws, and probably also around the mounting foot.

I found these nice little mounting plates that you can use to mount your mounting foot too (hmm...a mounting foot for a mounting foot), but it is a plate, that has two other plates that slide under two different shingles, where you screw them down, then flip the shingle back over it. Then it has a plate that you mount the mounting foot to.

Ah, found the link. It's near the bottom.
http://www.hometech.com/video/satmount.html

Too late for my today installation, as long as it doesn't start raining...

Goldrich - you obviously don't need a distribution amp. your signal is already strong enough. You just need to use a splitter...

I just seen that Type of Mounting Plate at my Local Menards,,,On Sale too !! ;)

Menards (http://menards.inserts2online.com/customer_Frame.jsp?drpStoreID=1)

But they don't have in Texas :rolleyes:

Good Luck and let us know how it goes !!

Figures.

Well, I'm going to check the local Home Depot and Lowe's to see if they have one of these, otherwise, I may just wait and order one. I think mounting one of the mounting plates would make it easier to install.

Figures.

Well, I'm going to check the local Home Depot and Lowe's to see if they have one of these, otherwise, I may just wait and order one. I think mounting one of the mounting plates would make it easier to install.

http://www.rstcenterprises.com/find_a_distributor.phtml?state=TX


http://www.rstcenterprises.com/installation_training.phtml

Thanks Doug. I came across that as well, but I called a couple of those ABC Supplies, and Bradco's, and they only appear to be open during the week...

Looks like if HD or Lowe's doesn't have them, I'll be waiting until next weekend.

I like the idea of being able to remove the antenna later, if we move, and just leaving the mount there...

I mounted a Channel master 9512A on top of a 5 foot mast, that is attached by means of two-8" stand-offs, to the eave of my house. The two stand-off brackets are approx 18" apart, and into solid wood with 1-1/2 #10 lag bolts. It ends up about three feet above my roof line. I then mounted a RadioShack UHF Yagi (a tad shorter than the CM3222) about 8" from the top of another 5 foot mast. See the attached jpeg

Only afterwards did I notice one of my install guides suggests only using a 3 foot mast above the rotor. All the illustrations in the guide show big vhf/uhf antennas.

Would it be best to:
a) cut the mast and mount the antenna lower.
b) lower the antenna on the mast to 3' above the rotor and leave the mast above the antenna.
c) move the lower stand-off to the bottom of the gable vent, lower the rotor's mast approx 2 two feet, leaving the antenna mounted near the top of the 5 foot mast.
d) do nothing, its a small antenna :)

a and b are possible, c is a little harder since I don't have the ladder I borrowed anymore to get to the gable vent (I get to the roof from a lower part of the roof)

I don't want to put undue strain on rotor or the mounts. Thanks in advance for any advice.

For that size antenna,there is No problem ,even though it isn't a Winegard :D ! ( D )

Thanks for the advice, figured it was OK but much better experience here in these forums. I haven't finished the install yet. Still need to get the cables under my house and up into the floor or wall to my TV. Significantly improved reception with this set-up. I was having lots of multipath problems with the Zenith Silver sensor, despite having good signal strength.

Do you get any leaks in the roof where the legs attach?

Goldrich - you obviously don't need a distribution amp. your signal is already strong enough. You just need to use a splitter...

I think you're intending to reply to my original query, Goldrich doesn't need any help with this. Thanks though!

Actually what would be really helpful is a pointer to some kind of basic faq/doc on when/how to use preamps and splitters such as was summarized in geogecko's reply.

--Don

Yes, but a more authoritative person would be better quoted in an official FAQ like that. I'm no expert.

Actually what would be really helpful is a pointer to some kind of basic faq/doc on when/how to use preamps and splitters

--Don
HDTV PRIMER.com go to antennas, informational.

"Someone should like take a piece of paper with all the days of the week written on it and put numbers under them, like, you know, 'one' 'two' 'three', so anytime someone wants to know what day something is going to be on, they can just look at it and see."

- Kelly Bundy


Pumpkin, do you know what today is?

- Al Bundy

"Of course I do. Its the bright part that comes before 'tonight'."

- Kelly

HDTV PRIMER.com go to antennas, informational.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/
Thanks

Great resource at www.hdtvprimer.com I had cobbled most of the information from other various sources, nice to find it all in one place. ---

I don't consider myself in a high probability lightning strike area, a large canopy of taller trees than my antenna. That said...

I mounted my antenna on the side of my house, opposite from the power entrance. The antenna coax comes down near to the phone co wire, and enters the house in the same penetration of the phone co wiring . I noticed the ground wire of the phone NID going under my house, tacked to the floor joists, and heading towards the other side of the house. I didn't follow it all the way to the other side. I used a split bolt to connect the ground wire of the phone co to the ground wire of my antenna coax going into the ground rod I pounded in.

After I connected it all together, I used a continuity meter to determine the house ground and the antenna coax ground are not connected. I assume the phone co ground was cut/removed in some plumbing or other renovation under my house. I'm thinking it would be best to cut the phone co ground and attact it directly to the ground rod for the antenna, rather than having this flaming wire going nowhere under my house if I had a close lightning strike. I don't relish the thought of running a ground wire all the way to the other side of the house. Is this a totally bad idea?

Code says that two ground rods should be joined together by 6 AWG wire. Having two different earth grounds can cause problems with your receiver, due to a possible differential in ground voltage. But you may not see any problem...

Seems a bit odd that the telephone service would come in on the other side of the house, but I don't know all that much about construction practices.

Lightning does not always favor the tallest structure. Lightning is attracted to static electricity. Your antenna (mast) if not properly grounded, can have static electricity build up, due to wind moving the antenna back and forth. Your antenna mast and coax should both be grounded.

I'm no expert, but grounding both of those, using a second ground rod in leu of no ground, is probably better than not grounding at all.

However, with a pier and beam house, wouldn't it be fairly easy to run a wire from one ground to the other?

wouldn't it be fairly easy to run a wire from one ground to the other? Easy is a realtive term-the crawl space under my house is very limited in certain areas. I haven't grounded the mast yet. I need to grind off some of the painted surfaces of the mast, so it's all grounded.

My original question-should I cut that phone co ground wire that goes somewhere/nowhere under my house? I do have it grounded to the coax ground rod.

Easy is a realtive term-the crawl space under my house is very limited in certain areas. I haven't grounded the mast yet. I need to grind off some of the painted surfaces of the mast, so it's all grounded.
If you can borrow a set of "push rods" from someone, you won't need to crawl under the house. Or you can pay a little kid five or ten bucks to do the crawl for you.

If you can borrow a set of "push rods" from someone, you won't need to crawl under the house. Or you can pay a little kid five or ten bucks to do the crawl for you.

If you can see under the house from one side to the other a bow and arrow works great for this sort of thing.

Tie a stout string to the arrow and shoot it through, then tie the string to the wire and just pull it through.

Or tie a String on a dogs Collar and call him from the other side ! :p

Thanks for all the suggestions-even the less than practical ones. :) I am doomed to crawl through there, I want to get it tacked up to the floor joists. This ones too important to leave laying on the ground, just to get snagged/disconnected on aonther trip under the house.

Thanks for all the suggestions-even the less than practical ones. :) I am doomed to crawl through there, I want to get it tacked up to the floor joists. This ones too important to leave laying on the ground, just to get snagged/disconnected on aonther trip under the house.

Actually, I've leave it as loose as possible. Typically, you want the ground wire to have as few bends in it as possible, so the lightning has an easy time going down the wire... :D

hi guys,
I purchased a CM 4228 and a 7777 preamp to go along with it. It works great for all my Providence stations with no break up, but some of the Boston channels (about 50-60 miles out from me) do break up at times -- esp. during the day time.

If I added an amp, could that possibly help? (the signal is only being split at the end of the line, but doesn't seem to make any difference if it is or not in terms of getting those channels in -- I've run the wire straight through, passing the splitter, but the same break up occur at the same general time of day on the stations further out). I do not have any obstuctions.

If so which CM amp should I get?

Sounds like an amplifier is not the solution, you need a better signal comming from the the antenna. What town do you live in? If the antenna is not outside, getting it out helps. A rotator would allow you to point the antenna at the weak stations better which would help.
Also some of the Boston channels have stations from Hartford on the same channel and you could be getting interference especially in Northwestern RI.
John

hi guys,
I purchased a CM 4228 and a 7777 preamp to go along with it. It works great for all my Providence stations with no break up, but some of the Boston channels (about 50-60 miles out from me) do break up at times -- esp. during the day time.


If you are located over 50 miles from the Boston TV towers the curvature of the earth is beginning to block the signal. For example, WBZ-DT 30 transmits from an antenna @ approximately 1280 ft. (HAAT) which theoretically means the line of sight signal would travel approximately 50 miles before hitting the ground. Beyond this distance the signal strength is affected by many propagation factors like weather conditions, tropospheric conditions, etc. Sunlight has a negative impact on the signal so reception will usually improve, at least somewhat, after sunset and during the nighttime hours.

I'm not saying you will not be able to receive these stations from Boston at over 50 miles, but it will certainly be more of a challenge. Not always, but usually the higher you can get your antenna the better you'll do as you try to climb above the ground clutter which will help your antenna's "line of sight" to the TV tower.

I have a DTV station @ 60 miles. Sometimes I can get and sometimes I can't. The signal strength varies a lot.

Steve

If you are located over 50 miles from the Boston TV towers the curvature of the earth is beginning to block the signal. For example, WBZ-DT 30 transmits from an antenna @ approximately 1280 ft. (HAAT) which theoretically means the line of sight signal would travel approximately 50 miles before hitting the ground. Beyond this distance the signal strength is affected by many propagation factors like weather conditions, tropospheric conditions, etc. Sunlight has a negative impact on the signal so reception will usually improve, at least somewhat, after sunset and during the nighttime hours.

I'm not saying you will not be able to receive these stations from Boston at over 50 miles, but it will certainly be more of a challenge. Not always, but usually the higher you can get your antenna the better you'll do as you try to climb above the ground clutter which will help your antenna's "line of sight" to the TV tower.

I have a DTV station @ 60 miles. Sometimes I can get and sometimes I can't. The signal strength varies a lot.

Steve

Thanks Steve. For whatever reason Channels 2, 4 and 5 from Boston reach me at any time of the day -- very little break up on them, and Channel 2's signal is unbelievably strong. Other Boston channels tend to come and go depending on the weather as you say and time of day (38, 56, 44, etc.). Must have something to do with where I am and the signal of those particular stations.

As I'm on the water and have gone through numerous antennas over the years with a rotor (weather can be nasty and very windy in the winter time), we opted not to go that route again. We mounted the 4228 on the roof (on the side of the chimney mount to be precise) so it's anchored on all 4 sides strong and ought to be stable from any wind direction.

Where we have it pointed, I'm getting no problem with any of the Providence HD stations in any weather (with good readings) and can pick up those 3 Boston channels just fine. The downside is I can't move it, but I'd rather get what I know I can from the angle it's at, then have to worry about climbing up there in the middle of winter once a storm knocks it off-course or blows it off completely (which happened with our old Radio Shack antenna a few years ago).

I was just trying to figure out if there's anything else I can do in-house to maybe get those stations, but it's not a big deal if I can't (if that makes any sense) since I'm set with the Providence OTA HD locals.

I work at a retail store and we well some tv's. We have arround 50+ . We get our cable via sattelite broadcast from the home store so we don't have the option of what is viewed. But we would like to ad an antenna to view local news or football games on the sales floor or just in the break room.

But putting an antenna outside is not an option because there is NO drilling holes in the roof. The roff is held up with all steel so when we put an antenna up there, or a small one anywhere, we got nothing.

Are there any other options?

If it is a flat roof you can use something like this with a small antenna:
http://www.shopjubilee.net/itm00402.htm

You put cinder blocks in the trays for stability. I've also seen one for angled roofs where it sits on both sides of the peak.

Sorry, I should have explained more. No holes include the coaxial cable. So what i meant to say was are there any indoor solutions?

Can you not run the coax through an existing hole - such as where the phone line or current cable is or through a roof vent, etc?

If you have a lot of steel in the building, you probably won't be able to get any OTA signals from an indoor antenna.

..... For whatever reason Channels 2, 4 and 5 from Boston reach me at any time of the day -- very little break up on them, and Channel 2's signal is unbelievably strong. Other Boston channels tend to come and go depending on the weather as you say and time of day (38, 56, 44, etc.). Must have something to do with where I am and the signal of those particular stations.
.........................

In your comments above, are those analog channels? Here are some good links that help explain the different characteristics of VHF and UHF frequencies. It should make it clearer as to why those low-band VHF channels (2, 4 and 5) from Boston are easier to receive than the higher UHF channels (38, 44 and 56).

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/GlossaryA.html#fading
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/glossaryA.html#fringe

Steve

I am installing a CM 7777 for my Dad this weekend, he lives in a log home, and pre-run wires makes things a bit difficult when managing where in the line I can place certain things.

I am doing this install for a chance to boost both VHF analog and UHF digital signals throughout the house for multiple tvs. Not being familiar with the wireing, and not living close, I'm not sure where in the line I will be able to put the power box for the CM 7777.

I know that running everything pre-splitter is the best option, but if that option is not available to me, will the amp still work if the power box is located after the splitter in the line?

Also, I know the main unit of the amp should be as close to the antenna as possible, but again, unsure of exactly what I'm dealing with, will this work - even somewhat- if I can not place either the head unit or the power unit in their ideal locations, or will I get 'nothing'???

Most splitters will block the power signal from the power insertion module to the Preamp.
However, most "Satellite Splitters" are designed to pass power from the SAT Receiver to the SAT Dish (on one or both ports) and hence will do what you need:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2456512&cp=&fbn=Type%2FSplitters&f=PAD%2FProduct+Type%2FSplitters&fbc=1&kw=satellite+splitter&parentPage=search
Note that the Philips Satellite Splitter has POWER PASS on both ports and extends the bandwidth beyond the TV band into the SAT frequency band.

Do not confuse the above "Satellite Splitter" with a "Satellite Duplexer", which passes only the TV freq band on one port and only the SAT freq band on the other port:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103927&cp=&fbn=Type%2FSplitters&f=PAD%2FProduct+Type%2FSplitters&fbc=1&kw=satellite+splitter&parentPage=search
A pair of these is used to share a single downlead coax between a TV Antenna and a SAT Dish.

There are some issues with trying to place a power injector after a splitter.

1. Depending on how the splitter is designed, the splitter may have a series resitive element, which means, that depending on how much current the amplifier is drawing, will produce a loss in voltage (V=IR), which usually means, less Vp-p that the amplifier can swing, which may either not provide you with enough amplification, or may introduce clipping of the signal.
2. If you are not careful, you may blow up a receiver, if you do not make sure that the power injector DC voltage does not go to the other output of the splitter. In other words, you would either need to buy a DC block for the other output of the splitter, or ensure that you buy a splitter that contains a DC block for one of it's outputs.

While it may not be easy, it may be wise to just see if you can connect the power injector directly to the amplfier, if a power outlet is close by. This eliminates any guess work. Otherwise, you may need to disconnect every TV in the house, hook up the power injector, and go measure DC voltage at every TV location, to make sure a splitter isn't in the loop somewhere.

EDIT:

Looks like Holl_ands covered it. But, that part that was suggested (first one), make SURE that you DC block the other output port. I don't see anywhere where it says that one is DC blocked from the other...but maybe it is... Use a voltmeter to be sure.

If a splitter passes power on one port and blocks it on the other, it will have a line on the sticker label that goes from the common port to the power-passing port.

Do not confuse the above "Satellite Splitter" with a "Satellite Duplexer", which passes only the TV freq band on one port and only the SAT freq band on the other port:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103927&cp=&fbn=Type%2FSplitters&f=PAD%2FProduct+Type%2FSplitters&fbc=1&kw=satellite+splitter&parentPage=search
A pair of these is used to share a single downlead coax between a TV Antenna and a SAT Dish.
Also, do not confuse the $19.95 diplexer in the above link for a good value. I just bough a case of 100 diplexers for $1 each. You should be able to find them in single quantities for $3 each or less.

I've had a CM 7777 for several years, but recently paired it with a CM 4228 when I switched to HD. Was working great until this evening.

I was replacing the RG59 that was there when I bought the house with ~100 feet of RG11. Apparently the last time I was on the roof I decided to be dumb and tightened the heck out of the Output/Power connection. I had to use a wrench to get it off, but all I really did was break the barrel connector loose from the legs inside. :( I even managed to completely break off the two outermost legs from their traces (and they fell out when I removed the board from the cover). :::sigh:::

Does anyone have a schematic of a 7777, or a physical unit handy? I am pretty sure what I have to jump but would be nice to know it's right the first time.

The mast must be grounded with 10 gauge copper, 8 gauge aluminum or 17 gauge copper clad steel wire. Any auxilliary ground rod driven to develop a more direct path to the earth must be bonded to the building's ground electrode system with 6 gauge copper wire.

Any ideas where I could look around my house foundation for the house grounding rod? It is new construction if that helps. The power distribution box is on an outer wall in the walk-out basement. Would the grounding rod be completely submerged in the soil?

Best place to look is in the vacinity of your electric meter out doors.

Would the grounding rod be completely submerged in the soil?

If final landscape is done some time after electical connection. Follow the electric panel groung wire and observe where the phone company attached their ground-should be the same-near the meter, like rick says.

If final landscape is done some time after electical connection. Follow the electric panel groung wire and observe where the phone company attached their ground-should be the same-near the meter, like rick says.

I did landscape around the area and don't remember a grounding rod, so it must be buried somewhat in the area. My meter is right by the phone connection box, so the two as previously mentioned are sharing the same ground.

If I am able to locate the house ground, wouldn't it make sense to just run the ground from the antenna and coax to the house ground rather than creating a seperate ground for the two and running a jumper from the antenna grounding rod to the house grounding rod? The only thing I would need clarification on is there any risk of running the ground lead from one side of the house in the basement along the same path as all my other electrical wires within the floor joists. If I took an electrical hit on my house, the charge would follow that lead that is in very close proximity to all my other 110/220V power leads, too! Your thoughts?

I did landscape around the area and don't remember a grounding rod, so it must be buried somewhat in the area. At what depth would it be at? My meter is right by the phone connection box, so the two as previously mentioned are sharing the same ground.

If I am able to locate the house ground, wouldn't it make sense to just run the ground from the antenna and coax to the house ground rather than creating a seperate ground for the two and running a jumper from the antenna grounding rod to the house grounding rod? The only thing I would need clarification on is there any risk of running the ground lead from one side of the house in the basement along the same path as all my other electrical wires within the floor joists. If I took an electrical hit on my house, the charge would follow that lead that is in very close proximity to all my other 110/220V power leads, too! Your thoughts?

Do I need to treat the ground with respect as I would a live feed?

The ground is there as a potential live feed. It's sort of insurance. If a problem develops, the electrical "problem" will "go to ground" instead of you or your house stuff. It should be close cause wire equals money and it has to be installed to code or they're responsible. Take a shovel and dig around-easily-and find the rod to confirm and ease your own mind. Creat a ground close to your antenna/dish, AND connect it to your common ground (at meter). I'd keep wire outside if possible-CHECK LOCAL CODES. Some are different than National. It's all about insurance-and YOU. DO NOT install a separate ground-all must be connected.

Take a look here. I also want to protect my OTA antenna and Satellite coax from my A/V equipment with a surge protector. The problem is it appears you need to spend around $100 to get a setup that has enough coax terminals for both a OTA and satellite connections. Has anyone used a setup like this? http://www.daveswebshop.com/surge1.shtml

A surge protector for Sat and Ant connections is the most useless thing I can think of offhand. Grounding to code specs is all that is required. What would be the source of the surge that a surge protector would help with? It's not going to stop lightning. CableTV is a different matter.

Take a look here. I also want to protect my OTA antenna and Satellite coax from my A/V equipment with a surge protector. The problem is it appears you need to spend around $100 to get a setup that has enough coax terminals for both a OTA and satellite connections. Has anyone used a setup like this? http://www.daveswebshop.com/surge1.shtml

How many coax cables do you have?

I used one of these guys:

Item: 5846804058 on eBay.

I do not see a place to attach a grounding wire to the one you posted. This one has a screw terminal in order to install a #10 wire to your ground rod. They should be placed as close to the place where it enters the dwelling as possible.

IMO, just grounding the antenna mast is not good enough. That still leaves the door open for lightning to get on the coax ground/conductor, and travel into your house. Granted, even with the protector, you may not stand a lightning strike, but you should at a minimum, ground the outer conductor (shield) of the coax to your grounding rod. (They make grounding blocks up to 4 (or maybe 6) in one, that provide this feature. Item: 9707749642)

How many coax cables do you have?

I used one of these guys:

Item: 5846804058 on eBay.

I do not see a place to attach a grounding wire to the one you posted. This one has a screw terminal in order to install a #10 wire to your ground rod. They should be placed as close to the place where it enters the dwelling as possible.

IMO, just grounding the antenna mast is not good enough. That still leaves the door open for lightning to get on the coax ground/conductor, and travel into your house. Granted, even with the protector, you may not stand a lightning strike, but you should at a minimum, ground the outer conductor (shield) of the coax to your grounding rod. (They make grounding blocks up to 4 (or maybe 6) in one, that provide this feature. Item: 9707749642)

I have the coax lead from my one dish and the OTA antenna.

I have the coax lead from my one dish and the OTA antenna.

So if you only have 2 coax cables, how would $7.95 x 2 = >$100?

I'm confused. I thought maybe you had like 8 or more lines coming in...

If you were talking about a power strip surge protector to protect your equipment on the coax side, I'd chunck that idea, because once it's in your house, it's too late. Those are more designed for non-direct lightning strikes (or from the cable company) or for surge supression on your AC lines, an OTA issue would be a direct strike problem.

So if you only have 2 coax cables, how would $7.95 x 2 = >$100?

I'm confused. I thought maybe you had like 8 or more lines coming in...

If you were talking about a power strip surge protector to protect your equipment on the coax side, I'd chunck that idea, because once it's in your house, it's too late. Those are more designed for non-direct lightning strikes (or from the cable company) or for surge supression on your AC lines, an OTA issue would be a direct strike problem.

Ok, how about this setup: 1- Quad ground block satellite coax coaxial cable 3Ghz for both my satellite and OTA coax cable coming in the house plus a spike/surge protector ground block for both the OTA and satellite coax. Both would be connected to ground. Which one would you want installed closer to ground, the ground block or the spike/surge protector? With this setup, could I ditch the idea of spending money on another surge protector strip that has 2 sets of coax terminals for the OTA and satellite connections?

Do you notice any degredation of signal with these spike/surge protectors?

I'm not sure you would need both. I've got one of the spike protectors myself, but I can't comment on the loss yet, because I have not installed my antenna outside yet.

I believe it says 1db on the package, but I can't remember for sure.

Grounding the mast and coax bleeds off static buildup which dramatically reduces the chance of a lightning strike. If lightning does strike, you have a problem. No surge protector is going to react in time to a direct strike. Even if it did, lightning has more than enough energy to jump gaps in a line. It's the nearby strikes that propagate through wires and cables or electrical system difficulties that a surge protector can help with. Antennas and dishes are isolated from such conditions because they don't reach beyond your house. Surge protectors can cause problems with signal passage though. For antennas and dishes, surge protectors are as useful as the proverbial mammary glands on amphibians.

Just thought I would post my antenna success story. I have OTA only and needed to pull from Location #1 (~35miles away ) and Location #2 (~50 miles away). I had and huge older RS antenna (RS-120 I think) for analog with a RS preamp/amp. After getting a Samsung STB (SIR-151) I started upgrading. First I replaced the RS antenna and coax with a Winegard 8200P and RG-6. Not much different then the RS antenna (but cost a lot more). Next I replaced the RS preamp with a Winegard AP-8275 and saw good VHF analog improvement and some UHF improvement. Next upgraded the old 25” zenith TV and STB to a 32” Sanyo HDTV. Still having some breakups on HDTV and DTV channels. Next I got a Winegard HD9095P high gain UHF antenna and mounted it 4 feet above the 83200P. I then got a UHF/VHF combiner and added the two together. UHF was slightly worse and VHF (analog) was the same as before. Next I removed the 2 UHF solid wires on the 8200P combo antenna from the antenna combiner so that the combo was now just a VHF antenna. YES good strong VHF and UHF. Been using this for months. Very few dropouts from weather or leaves coming out which used to give me problems. Yes it took awhile and some $$ to find a good combination that worked for me BUT, no cable or satellite bill either. (can watch DTV for many days at a time with NO drop out at all and receive about 12 strong DTV channels.)

Grounding the mast and coax bleeds off static buildup which dramatically reduces the chance of a lightning strike. If lightning does strike, you have a problem. No surge protector is going to react in time to a direct strike. Even if it did, lightning has more than enough energy to jump gaps in a line. It's the nearby strikes that propagate through wires and cables or electrical system difficulties that a surge protector can help with. Antennas and dishes are isolated from such conditions because they don't reach beyond your house. Surge protectors can cause problems with signal passage though. For antennas and dishes, surge protectors are as useful as the proverbial mammary glands on amphibians.

Would the following be a benefit beyond just a coax grounding block connected to ground? Item: 5846804058 on eBay

Next I removed the 2 UHF solid wires on the 8200P combo antenna from the antenna combiner so that the combo was now just a VHF antenna. YES good strong VHF and UHF.

can you be more specific on your process. exactly what did you do. do not understand from your description.

can you give model#s of combiners,etc.

you have peaked my interest.

central new york? me too.

also have a hd8200p.

Would the following be a benefit beyond just a coax grounding block connected to ground? Item: 5846804058 on eBayFor an OTA antenna cable, yes. For a dish, no. It has a gas discharge unit that can help discharge the static buildup on antenna elements by ionizing the gas and allowing the charge on the coax center wire to discharge through the ionized gas to the grounded shield.

Rick0725
The HD8200P has a plastic box on the mask which combiles VHF and UHF. There are 2 solid wires that run out of the box toward the UHF driven element and I just pulled them back out of the box and bent them too one side leaving them hang out in free air. This seems to make the 8200 a VHF only antenna only. I think I got the combiner at Rshack but I am not sure. It looks like a splitter but has inputs for UHF (from my HD9095P) and VHF (from my HD8200P) and an output that I connected to my preamp. When I was trying all this I had my daughter down at the TV on a Syracuse DTV channel watching the signal strength meter. I am no expert on antennas but this combo worked the best and gave me the strongest signal. I am 35 miles south west of Syracuse (map and ruler) and 55 miles south east of Rochester. I get good solid DTV from both. I have also locked in on Buffalo (110 miles) DTV stations but not good enough to watch. (also my UHF antenna is about 40' off the ground on my 3 story house chimney.) Good luck with your setup!

Rick0725
The HD8200P has a plastic box on the mask which combiles VHF and UHF. There are 2 solid wires that run out of the box toward the UHF driven element and I just pulled them back out of the box and bent them too one side leaving them hang out in free air. This seems to make the 8200 a VHF only antenna only.
That will do it. A word to the wise: remove the cartridge before pulling them out, otherwise you might damage it because it when it was installed, its "gas tight"push terminals got wegded into those "wires", which might better be called rails.

For an OTA antenna cable, yes. For a dish, no. It has a gas discharge unit that can help discharge the static buildup on antenna elements by ionizing the gas and allowing the charge on the coax center wire to discharge through the ionized gas to the grounded shield.

Where would it be of most benefit for its location, near the antenna or ground, before or after the coax grounding block? Would there be any loss of signal quality or strength?

I have my search down to the Monster Power MP-HTS400HP and the Tripp Lite TLP810SAT surge protectors. I like them both as they have 2 sets of Coax protectors. Am I right for thinking Monster products are overpriced and over-hyped?

I'd go with Tripp Lite. They were in the electrical/electronic field long before Monster created it's first inflated press release.

Carl

Would the following be a benefit beyond just a coax grounding block connected to ground? Item: 5846804058 on eBay
There are three general types of coax surge protectors (aka Grounding Block):

1) Air Gap--relies on a spark jumping across an air gap:
Which SHOULD be inside a protective enclosure to keep out dirt & dust (most are not).
They also act as a high current conductor when overwhelmed by a high voltage event:
https://www.tselectronic.com/pico/grb_hrl.html
I've yet to see any specs on breakdown voltage (probably quite high), reaction time
(probably quite slow) and current capability vs time to destruct....
but for house entry points for OTA Antenna, SAT & Cable, they "meet NEC code"....

2) Gas Tube (e.g Holland GRB-AR) with internal spark gap:
Very careful construction means the breakdown characteristics can be controlled
inside the gas filled tube. Holland even provides detailed specs:
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/upload_file/Cable-Drop-Protection.pdf
http://www.l-com.com/item.aspx?id=20928
But, since they still rely on an "air" gap, the breakdown voltage is fairly high
(90 volts for GRB-AR), so don't expect them to provide very much protection to attached
electronics equipment. Also note the higher current ratings for the Toner Cable devices.

3) Solid State devices (e.g. MOV & Silicon Avalanche, such as Holland SA-1F SiDACtor):
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/upload_file/Cable-Drop-Protection.pdf
have a much lower breakdown voltage (25 volts for the SA-1F) and hence will leak off
static electricity build-up and thereby prevents excessive voltages being applied
to sensitive electronics equipment. But when the solid state device is overstressed,
it will blow, meaning the only protection is whatever air gap was (hopefully???)
intentionally designed into the device.
I've seen many coax MOV type devices listed, but very few quote specs....

If you check the current specs for the Holland devices, note that neither device
will sustain high current conditions for more than a handful of microseconds---
whereas a lightning strike will typically last for many milliseconds.....so don't think that any
of these devices will provide much protection against a direct lightning spike:
http://www.atlanticscientific.com/lightning.html

MOV (& Si avalanche) type devices, such as are found in most "Power Surge Protectors",
are usually combined in parallel to increase the overall energy absorbion rating (joules).
As power spikes are absorbed, individual "crystals" within each device are sacrificed,
eventually making each device inoperative....hence the need to parallel individual devices:
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1155237,00.asp
Unfortunately, this can also slowly degrade RF signals going through Coax Surge Protectors,
which can result in significant signal attenuation that increases over time...so test frequently....

=========================================
The best approach is to use a combination of either #1 or #2 for protection
against large (but very rare) surge voltage events and and a solid state devices
to drain off static electricity on a daily basis.

PS: If you have reception problems, carefully check to make sure that these devices
are not contributing excessive loss--esp if the device has undergone one too many spikes...

For more info:
http://www.arcelect.com/lightnin.htm NOTE THE USE OF THREE DEVICES!!!
http://www.panamax.com/PDF/IEEE_Guide.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector

Explains Static Electricity Buildup:
http://www.renewwisconsin.org/wind/Toolbox-Fact%20Sheets/Lightning.pdf
http://www.nottltd.com/article.html
http://www.atlanticscientific.com/lightning.html

==============================================
OTA TV Antenna Grounding info contained in C-M Installation Guide:
http://www.channelmasterstore.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/antenna%20installation%20manual%20-%20channel%20master.pdf

SAT Dish Grounding References (also apply to OTA TV Antennas):
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/GB-HTML/HTML/GroundingSatelliteDishandLead-InCables~20020303.htm
http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Installation/Grounding.htm

There are three general types of coax surge protectors (aka Grounding Block):

1) Air Gap--relies on a spark jumping across an air gap:
Which should be inside a protective enclosure that also acts as a high current conductor when overwhelmed by a high voltage event:
https://www.tselectronic.com/pico/grb_hrl.html
I've yet to see any specs on breakdown voltage (probably quite high), reaction time (probably quite slow) and current capability vs time to destruct....but they are supposed to "meet code"....

2) Gas Tube (e.g Holland GRB-AR) with internal spark gap:
Very careful construction means the breakdown characteristics can be controlled inside the gas filled tube.
Holland and Toner Cable even provide detailed specs:
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/06CatalogPages/49_50.pdf
http://www.tonercable.com/Files/ProductFiles/880/PDFFile/TII-210&212.pdf
But, since they still relies on an "air" gap, the breakdown voltage is quite high (90 volts for GRB-AR), so don't expect it to provide very much protection to attached electronics equipment. Also note the higher current ratings for the Toner Cable devices.

3) Solid State (e.g. MOV device, such as Holland SA-1F):
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/06CatalogPages/49_50.pdf
Has a much lower breakdown voltage (25 volts for the SA-1F) and hence will leak off static electricity build-up and thereby prevents excessive voltages being applied to sensitive electronics equipment. But when the MOV device is overstressed, it will blow, meaning your only protection is whatever air gap was (hopefully???) intentionally designed into the device.
I've seen many coax MOV devices listed, but very few quote specs....for example, the fol:
http://www.tonercable.com/Files/ProductFiles/880/PDFFile/TII-210&212.pdf

If you check the current specs for the Holland devices, note that neither device will sustain high current conditions for more than a handful of microseconds---whereas a lightning strike will typically last for many milliseconds.....so don't think that any of these devices will provide much protection against a direct lightning spike....

The best approach is to use a combination of either #1 or #2 for protection against large (but very rare) surge voltage events and and a solid state MOV type device to drain off static electricity on a daily basis.

PS: If you have reception problems, carefully check to make sure that these devices are not contributing excessive loss--esp if the device has undergone one too many spikes...

For more info:
http://www.panamax.com/Literature/PDF/SAT_BROCHURE.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector

Thanks for the very helpful information. Based on your recommendations, I am going to install a GRB-AR inline with a SA-1F and have both tied to ground. Which one should be installed closer to the AV equipment? How can you tell if either device has failed due to a surge? Why wouldn't you just install a SA-2F and not the GRB-AR since the SA-2F includes a ground?

Reviewing this thread I see a lot about pre-amps but not much about distribution amps. With my antenna and pre-amp connected with 25ft of RG-59, I can get all the channels I want on one TV. But when I actually have it set up to go to all TVs and the DVR, it's going to be running through a lot (>100ft) of RG-6 and more than one splitter. If this turns out not to work, is there a recommended distribution amp? Should I instead install a second pre-amp before the splitter? And how much do these very low noise amps cost anyway? The web sites tend to leave out that information, which makes me nervous.

I'm only 16 miles from the towers but terrain puts me in the violet on antennaweb for several of the channels. Nothing on VHF now but at least one of the stations (now on channel 55) will be moving there.

My antenna is a Terk HDTVo. From the antenna to the ground block is 17', followed by about 18-20' in the house. From there it splits two ways into existing wiring, one back 17' to a TV and the other an unknown distance (but probably about 25') to the main distribution point, where it splits three ways again -- I could reduce this to two ways. The rest is existing wiring which I can't really measure. I believe one of the runs (probably to the upstairs) must split at least 2:1 once more, but I don't know which one. And at one of the TVs, there's a 2:1 split for the DVR. This is all RG-6; the RG-59 was just a convenient cable to test with. Rewiring with a more sensible distribution scheme isn't really an option; I'd have to tear up too much drywall.

Antennaweb results are

* yellow - uhf WPVI-DT 6.1 ABC PHILADELPHIA PA 142° 16.0 64
* yellow - uhf KYW-DT 3.1 CBS PHILADELPHIA PA 142° 16.0 26
* red - uhf WTVE-DT 51.1 IND READING PA 319° 15.3 25
* blue - uhf WGTW-DT 27.1 TBN BURLINGTON NJ 141° 16.2 27
* blue - uhf WYBE-DT 34.1 PBS PHILADELPHIA PA 141° 16.2 34
* violet - uhf WPHL-DT 17.1 MNT PHILADELPHIA PA 141° 16.2 54
* violet - uhf WTXF-DT 29.1 FOX PHILADELPHIA PA 138° 15.3 42
* violet - uhf WPPX-DT 61.1 i WILMINGTON DE 141° 16.2 31

These are ridiculously conservative; I get a few channels not listed, including WHYY-DT (channel 55). With the Terk's internal pre-amp off I get all except WTXF-DT and WHYY-DT. (and maybe WPPX, I don't really care about that one)

I have, but I'm limited being in a townhouse community. I can't attach anything to the roof, and I'm stretching things (at least according to the letter of the FCC regs) by having the Terk hang out over the deck. A CM4221 or similar would likely irritate the heck out of the neighbors.

I have, but I'm limited being in a townhouse community. I can't attach anything to the roof, and I'm stretching things (at least according to the letter of the FCC regs) by having the Terk hang out over the deck. A CM4221 or similar would likely irritate the heck out of the neighbors.
I was in the process of mounting a CM4221 on the roof of our house this weekend when my wife was complaining on how ugly it looks and that it stuck out like a sore thumb. I thought it was beautiful. Being her nagging began to run into other parts of our relationship, I gave in to her like a man without any balls and remounted it in the attic. Eventhough I was loosing approximately 30% signal strength, I was pulling in all my locals at 100% as I am only 10 miles from almost all the towers.

Being her nagging began to run into other parts of our relationship, I gave in to her like a man without any balls and remounted it in the attic :D :D

Thanks for the very helpful information. Based on your recommendations, I am going to install a GRB-AR inline with a SA-1F and have both tied to ground. Which one should be installed closer to the AV equipment? How can you tell if either device has failed due to a surge? Why wouldn't you just install a SA-2F and not the GRB-AR since the SA-2F includes a ground?
The SA-2F (a Littelfuse SiDACtor and other similar MOV devices) are solid state devices that gradually self-destruct as they provide protection, esp. when several devices are paralled to increase the current rating--which means that it is difficult to tell how much "life" is left in the device. A simple GO-NOGO test would be to apply greater than 25 volts via a current limiting resistor and verify that it clamps the voltage like a zener diode.

The solid state SiDACtor and MOV devices are not intended to replace the NEC Code mandated high current spark gap devices. I would place the SiDACtor or MOV type device close to the equipment to be protected, which ensures maximum attenuation of overvoltage signals via the interconnecting coax from the spark gap device.

The spark gap device must be installed in accordance with NEC Code requirements, which ensures that lightning and static buildup has the SHORTEST possible (hopefullly OUTDOOR) route to ground. You don't want a lighting bolt running through your house or garage on it's way to a "more convenient" grounding point.

Other than checking for an obvious short and melted metal, I don't think there is any simple way to test how well a spark gap device is working--unless you have experience working with tubes and their high voltage power supplies, you probably don't want to do a test to verify the high voltage breakdown voltage.....

The SA-2F (a Littelfuse SiDACtor and other similar MOV devices) are solid state devices that gradually self-destruct as they provide protection, esp. when several devices are paralled to increase the current rating--which means that it is difficult to tell how much "life" is left in the device. A simple GO-NOGO test would be to apply greater than 25 volts via a current limiting resistor and verify that it clamps the voltage like a zener diode.

The solid state SiDACtor and MOV devices are not intended to replace the NEC Code mandated high current spark gap devices. I would place the SiDACtor or MOV type device close to the equipment to be protected, which ensures maximum attenuation of overvoltage signals via the interconnecting coax from the spark gap device.

The spark gap device must be installed in accordance with NEC Code requirements, which ensures that lightning and static buildup has the SHORTEST possible (hopefullly OUTDOOR) route to ground. You don't want a lighting bolt running through your house or garage on it's way to a "more convenient" grounding point.

Other than checking for an obvious short and melted metal, I don't think there is any simple way to test how well a spark gap device is working--unless you have experience working with tubes and their high voltage power supplies, you probably don't want to do a test to verify the high voltage breakdown voltage.....

Thanks for the advice, but no need now since my wife took control of the situation (see above).

Hi All,

Been awhile since I posted here, but after finding out that D* won't give me waivers for ABC and CBS HD, I went out and bought a mast, rotor, amp/preamp, etc. I already have the antenna.

I'm ready to put it up.

The spot I picked out is going to a few feet in the ground up past the peak of my house. The mast will be mounted to the outside wall with standoffs, from the bottom up to the point where the peak of the house is. My main question is, how much higher can I go above the roofline without guy wires being needed (last spot the mast will be secured is a few inches below the roofline) I am kind of in a valley here in Niceville, so height will probably be real important.

Here are the particulars.

I have four 10 foot sections of 16 guage mast, 1 1/2 inch diameter.

Two of the sections from the ground are almost level with the peak of the house, so, once I sink a few feet of it in the ground with concrete, it will be a few feet below the peak, add another section, it will be roughly 7-8 feet above the roofline, then add a little for the rotor and antenna assembly. I would think this would be ok as is, but would like any info you all might want to add.

Now I assume adding in the last ten foot section (making it 17-18 foot above the peak of the house) would be too wobbly if unsecured, or would it? Any thoughts? Could I go even higher, if secured? What are my limitations here?

Thanks for any info you can give me.

Bruce/FL, keep in mind thats it's your local station that wont give you the wavier and it's making you spend your money to set up an antenna. D* will send you a signal if THEY (your station) approve the wavier. Usually HD OTA is better. These posters know their stuff.

Hi All,

The spot I picked out is going to a few feet in the ground up past the peak of my house. The mast will be mounted to the outside wall with standoffs, from the bottom up to the point where the peak of the house is. My main question is, how much higher can I go above the roofline without guy wires being needed (last spot the mast will be secured is a few inches below the roofline) I am kind of in a valley here in Niceville, so height will probably be real important.

.

This is called a ground mount and is one of the most sturdy installations. I don't see any advantage of sinking the bottom into the ground. Just use a footer of some sort i.e. large flat rock or cement sidewalk tread.

I would recommend using a telescoping mast. I used a 30 footer and installed it upside down so the stiffest part is at the top. This also allows you to raise/lower the antenna very easily for fine tuning the signal.

There's an antenna installation guide at CM's website. I think it says 10 feet above roofline without need for guying with this type of mount. This is a rough estimate and obviously depends on your particulars, primarily how big of an antenna you put up.

I've had my rig up for a couple of years now and it's about 8 feet above roofline without problems. I could go higher but it actually is in the "sweet spot" for signal as is.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=65852

Now that would get a HOA Riled up !! :D :D

Cpcat...... Sweet set-up !!

What IS that? I'm guessing the bottom two are ganged VHF yagis, though the extra unconnected dipole looks odd. But why are the UHF yagis on top tripled and at different angles?

Hmm. I could perfectly legally mount such a setup attached to my deck. Then the association would BEG for a simple CM4221 extending off of it :-).

What IS that? :-).

Televes DAT 75's on top (uhf) at 57 in. spacing.

Antennacraft Y10 7-13's on bottom (high band vhf) at 83 in. spacing.

the computer simulations show the dat75 to match up pretty closely to the 91xg

.

I keep wanting to get a couple 91xg's and stack them to compare but I've not done it as of yet. I've not seen a report of the 91xg stacked yet either. Forum member MaxHD uses Funke 4591's and thinks they are a little better than the DAT 75's and the xg is basically a clone of the 4591.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to mount a Channel Master 9521A rotor to a Rohn 25G accessory shelf (AS25G)? It's to be mounted inside a 25AG4 top section that includes a thrust bearing. I know the thrust bearing is not absolutely necessary but I have it and I want to use it. I had a bracket built by a machine shop but I'm not happy with the results. The rotor wouldn't turn like it used to since I can't get it lined up perfectly with the thrust bearing. I considered using a heavier duty ham rotor but apparently none of them are capable of using a remote with automatic presets like the Channel Master controller. I've attached a photo of the old bracket. It was basically a pipe welded onto a flat plate which was attached to the accessory shelf. I tried loosening the bolts in the thrust bearing but it still had problems. Any suggestions are welcome.

see pic.

not much of a box and lots of pieces to put together. Was stunned when I received it.

my first reaction was..."you got to be kidding me."

The 91xg works great though...nice improvement over the hd8200P and the cm 4228 uhf. Plus it receives vhf.

You mentioned it handles multipath better than the CM4228- still the same opion?

the hd8200p and 91xg both tame multipath nicely.

I have trees back and both sides (see pic) and I had stable signal with the hd8200p and 91xg. The cm 4228 did not process multipath as well and the signal was jumping around.

The bowties all tend to process multipath the same (because of their design). The hd8200p and 91xg type antennas are more directional with more front to back ratio receiving vere little signal from the back...thats a good thing if you have a hill or trees behind you.

notice I said tame multipath...it does not get rid of it in all cases.

I could not use bowties in my area because of the local geography.
But how will it handle it if the towers are on the other side of many hills?

Good question.

Hills block uhf signal. Luckily my problems are to my back and sides which are alot better than issues in front of the antenna.

All you can do is try.

The 91xg is very directional which is a plus when you attempt to receive signal.

the antenna supposedly also has an adjustment on the mounting bracket so you can angle the antenna slightly to the horizon which can help.

I did not play with that adjustment ...mine is set up horizontally.

I had the tilt on my 4228 on a 10' pole-not good for my rotor. Lowered it to 5 and lost two channels. I think with the XG and the newer STB I may get some stability. Thanks.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to mount a Channel Master 9521A rotor to a Rohn 25G accessory shelf (AS25G)? It's to be mounted inside a 25AG4 top section that includes a thrust bearing. I know the thrust bearing is not absolutely necessary but I have it and I want to use it. I had a bracket built by a machine shop but I'm not happy with the results. The rotor wouldn't turn like it used to since I can't get it lined up perfectly with the thrust bearing. I considered using a heavier duty ham rotor but apparently none of them are capable of using a remote with automatic presets like the Channel Master controller. I've attached a photo of the old bracket. It was basically a pipe welded onto a flat plate which was attached to the accessory shelf. I tried loosening the bolts in the thrust bearing but it still had problems. Any suggestions are welcome.

Hello Cornhustler!

The CM rotor will not work very well as it turns the masting in a "wobble" pattern as you've observed.I think the least wobble is with 1-3/8 O.D material.If you are determined to have a stiff bearing-supported mast you can get a TB-105 rotor support mast bearing from Stark's and mount it on the top tower plate using an L-shaped bracket..ie a short piece of 3" angle iron should do it.

What exact bearing are you using?

Hello Cornhustler!

The CM rotor will not work very well as it turns the masting in a "wobble" pattern as you've observed.I think the least wobble is with 1-3/8 O.D material.If you are determined to have a stiff bearing-supported mast you can get a TB-105 rotor support mast bearing from Stark's and mount it on the top tower plate using an L-shaped bracket..ie a short piece of 3" angle iron should do it.

What exact bearing are you using?

I'm using a Rohn TB-3 thrust bearing mounted in the top section of the tower. I already have a TB-105 I'm not using which I ordered from Stark a few years ago so I will give it a shot. Thanks for the advice, I'll see what I can come up with.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to mount a Channel Master 9521A rotor to a Rohn 25G accessory shelf (AS25G)? It's to be mounted inside a 25AG4 top section that includes a thrust bearing. I tried loosening the bolts in the thrust bearing but it still had problems. Any suggestions are welcome.
If you mount the rotator lower in the tower, the longer mast between the rotator and bearing will flex fairly easily allowing the rotator to turn freely.
John

Just had my new Sammy delivered and need a OTA antenna ASAP.

Looking for a good one i can pick up at Best buy or Radio shack.

Which one do you guys recommend?

I am in omaha so my local HD antenna are only about 4 miles. But Lincoln is about 45 miles away and id like to tap into there signals also.

Thanks.

Check out antennaweb.org , that should give you a good idea as to what type of antenna you need. For the 4 miles away, you could probably use an indoor antenna and do just fine with that. For 45 miles, you're going to probably need an outdoor, rooftop antenna to pull those in. Attic antennas would be sketchy at that distance, while some may work, it would be trial and error.

You also need to figure out if you need a unidirectional antenna, or a multi-directional. antennaweb will help with that.

I recommend you stay away from Best Buy. Radio Shack may have something available but they tend to be high priced for what you get.

You are actually 70 miles from the KLKN transmitter and 65 miles from the KOLN transmitter. (check map)

I would recommend a CM 4228 mounted outdoors for those two and depending on your location a 4221 for KETV, KMTV & WOWT. Then use a splitter in reverse to splice them together. Be sure to use RG-6 cable. If you need an amplifier for KLKN and KOLN I would recommend the Winegard 8700. Not sure of your location to KPTM & KXVO but they should come in easily as well. You could probably mount the 4221 in the attic. I just helped a friend in Lincoln set up a CM 4221 and he's getting all the Omaha stations great @ 50 miles with a CM 4221 mounted outdoors. It took him two days to get it after ordering it from Warren Elec. in Moline. http://www.warrenelectronics.com/
Stark Elec. and Solid Signal are also reputable but further away.

Huskers are in HD Saturday so if that's why you're in a hurry something simple should suffice in the short term to get KETV.

Post this question at the Omaha/Lincoln section and you'll get more answers.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=144464&page=1&pp=30

I see you beat me to it.

I am in Omaha so my local HD antenna are only about 4 miles. But Lincoln is about 45 miles away and id like to tap into their signals also.

Thanks.

An amplifier is extremely likely to be overloaded by the stations 4 miles away. To get Lincoln, you'll need some height, a high gain antenna, and a rotator. The Channel Master UHF only 4228 antenna is a good place to start.

An amplifier is extremely likely to be overloaded by the stations 4 miles away. To get Lincoln, you'll need some height, a high gain antenna, and a rotator. The Channel Master UHF only 4228 antenna is a good place to start.

True, but the AP-8700 is one of the few amplifiers that is designed to handle plenty of signal without overloading. (see chart) http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/Chart29.pdf but even then you could have problems. Start simple and go from there. Their HDP-269 can handle even more signal without overloading but it gives up a little gain. I know there are people from the Gretna and LaVista areas getting the stations west of Lincoln so hopefully you can too.

True, but the AP-8700 is one of the few amplifiers that is designed to handle plenty of signal without overloading. (see chart) http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/Chart29.pdf but even then you could have problems. Start simple and go from there. Their HDP-269 can handle even more signal without overloading but it gives up a little gain. I know there are people from the Gretna and LaVista areas getting the stations west of Lincoln so hopefully you can too.

I have a AP-4700. It's in a box on the shelf. It overloads easily 8 miles from the Albany, NY stations, even when my 4228 antenna is aimed away from the Albany stations. I can only use the AP-4700 after a channel filter. The AP-8700 and AP-4700 have the same UHF overload characteristics.

Hello, just got a mits 1080p t.v. and i wanted to start recieving over the air HD. I don't really want cable cause i don't watch tv that often and i've heard the hd cable channels kinda suck anyway. I live in Portland Or, but on the very edge north of beaverton so im like 10 miles from downtown. What would I need to recieve HD over the air. Can you use a regular antenna or are there special ones? sorry for the noob question.

Hello, just got a mits 1080p t.v. and i wanted to start recieving over the air HD. I don't really want cable cause i don't watch tv that often and i've heard the hd cable channels kinda suck anyway. I live in Portland Or, but on the very edge north of beaverton so im like 10 miles from downtown. What would I need to recieve HD over the air. Can you use a regular antenna or are there special ones? sorry for the noob question.

From antennaweb.org, here's your stations, channels and distances:
* yellow - uhf KOIN-DT 6.1 CBS PORTLAND OR 107° 4.2 40
* yellow - uhf KPDX-DT 49.1 MNT VANCOUVER WA 108° 3.2 48
* yellow - uhf KGW-DT 8.1 NBC PORTLAND OR 106° 3.4 46
* yellow - uhf KNMT-DT 45.1 TBN PORTLAND OR 106° 4.2 45
* yellow - uhf KATU-DT 2.1 ABC PORTLAND OR 107° 4.2 43
* yellow - uhf KRCW-DT 32.1 CW SALEM OR 106° 4.2 33
* yellow - uhf KOPB-DT 10.1 PBS PORTLAND OR 106° 3.4 27
* yellow - uhf KPTV-DT 12.1 FOX PORTLAND OR 107° 3.4 30
* yellow - vhf KPXG-DT 22.1 i SALEM OR 106° 4.2 4
* blue - uhf KOAC-DT 7.1 PBS CORVALLIS OR 183° 66.9 39
There are 9 UHF stations and 1 VHF station. They are very close to you. If you ignore channel 4, the Zenith silver sensor might work for you.
http://www.zenith.com/sub_prod/product_Display.asp?cat=&id=131
Rabbit ears would work for channel 4.
If you want to avoid the adjustment hassles that comes with indoor antennas, this antenna is fine and would work in the attic.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103084

From antennaweb.org, here's your stations, channels and distances:
* yellow - uhf KOIN-DT 6.1 CBS PORTLAND OR 107° 4.2 40
* yellow - uhf KPDX-DT 49.1 MNT VANCOUVER WA 108° 3.2 48
* yellow - uhf KGW-DT 8.1 NBC PORTLAND OR 106° 3.4 46
* yellow - uhf KNMT-DT 45.1 TBN PORTLAND OR 106° 4.2 45
* yellow - uhf KATU-DT 2.1 ABC PORTLAND OR 107° 4.2 43
* yellow - uhf KRCW-DT 32.1 CW SALEM OR 106° 4.2 33
* yellow - uhf KOPB-DT 10.1 PBS PORTLAND OR 106° 3.4 27
* yellow - uhf KPTV-DT 12.1 FOX PORTLAND OR 107° 3.4 30
* yellow - vhf KPXG-DT 22.1 i SALEM OR 106° 4.2 4
* blue - uhf KOAC-DT 7.1 PBS CORVALLIS OR 183° 66.9 39
There are 9 UHF stations and 1 VHF station. They are very close to you. If you ignore channel 4, the Zenith silver sensor might work for you.
http://www.zenith.com/sub_prod/product_Display.asp?cat=&id=131
Rabbit ears would work for channel 4.
If you want to avoid the adjustment hassles that comes with indoor antennas, this antenna is fine and would work in the attic.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103084

Thanks for the info. Where could i buy that first antenna, and what is the difference between uhf and vhf.

http://www.solidsignal.tv/prod_display.asp?main_cat=03&CAT=&PROD=ZHDTV1

UHF has shorter wavelengths than VHF. This means that a small UHF antenna will be more directional than a large VHF antenna. A full sized VHF antenna picks up a stronger signal than a UHF antenna.

Or you could try the Terk HDTVi (not the other Terk antennas) which is a Silver Sersor "clone" with added "rabbit ears".....

I have a question I would like to pose.

I get various answers on this, but what is the correct type of splitter to use when the split comes between the two parts of a pre-amp?

It needs to pass DC through at least one leg. The one that Radio Shack sells for satellite will work.
John

Satellite RF Splitters with DC PASS on one or both ports:
http://www.radioshack.com/sm-satellite-2-way-splitter--pi-2103928.html
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=SP2HFA
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=SP2HF1
http://www.amazon.com/ZENITH-ZDS-5010-Digital-Satellite-Splitters/dp/B00009W3X0
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7129412&st=splitter&type=product&id=1110262781904

You should use a Volt-Ohm Meter to make sure that there are no shorts on either cable run.
I've seen regular cable RF Splitters that were DC short circuits (they weren't very good in VHF band either).
It's perhaps also possible that there might be a TV out there somewhere that also acts as a DC short, in which case a DC isolator (e.g. standard cable RF Splitter) would be needed.

Thanks.

I've been reading this thread, and decided to try my luck for some antenna advice.

I'm interested in DTV. And putting it in my antic even if it isn't the best thing to do.

My house sit a top a hill and has no visible obstruction,
except of course the Rocky Mountians to the West. :)

Attic is about 3 stories up.

Location:
Fort Collins CO 80524

AnntennaWeb has the following:

* yellow - vhf KKTU-DT 11.1 ABC CHEYENNE WY 209° 8.6 11
yellow - uhf KFCT 22 FOX FORT COLLINS CO 80° 14.5 22
green - uhf KDEN 25 IND LONGMONT CO 155° 39.0 25
lt green - uhf K48CG 48 TBN LOVELAND CO 210° 8.4 48
* red - uhf KDEN-DT 29.1 IND LONGMONT CO 155° 39.0 29
* red - uhf KPXC-DT 43 i DENVER CO TBD 175° 67.2 43
red - vhf KRMA 6 PBS DENVER CO 177° 63.5 6
red - vhf KMGH 7 ABC DENVER CO 177° 63.5 7
red - uhf KDVR 31 FOX DENVER CO 177° 63.5 31
blue - uhf KDEO-LP 23 REL AURORA CO 175° 67.2 23
blue - uhf KMAS-LP 63 TEL DENVER CO 175° 67.2 63
blue - uhf KPXC 59 i DENVER CO 175° 67.2 59
blue - vhf KBDI 12 PBS BROOMFIELD CO 188° 69.7 12
blue - uhf K54IK 54 IND FORT COLLINS CO 209° 8.6 54
blue - vhf KGWN 5 CBS CHEYENNE WY 358° 31.9 5
blue - uhf KLWY 27 FOX CHEYENNE WY 10° 30.0 27
* violet - uhf KFCT-DT 21.1 FOX FORT COLLINS CO 80° 14.5 21
* violet - uhf KDVR-DT 31.1 FOX DENVER CO 177° 63.5 32

I've been thinking about the 4228 every one seems to think is a good one, but don't know if this is over kill.
For my situation.

I like to avoid a rotor if possible, since I have no easy way of routing rotor control cable to the attic.

I also have have a run of approx 200 ft of RG-6.

What do people suggest?

Thanks

Quick question - maybe a dumb one, I don't know - I could swear that I read someplace once about specialized antennas that are tuned to a specific frequency. So if you got channel 42 from the opposite direction as your other stations, you could point a UHF/VHF antenna to the north, and a channel 42-specific antenna to the south, and join them and get the best of both worlds.

If this exists, I can't find where to buy them. Was I smoking something, or are there actual antennas you could buy online made for a given frequency?

You would need the following to combine a uhf channel into your current system

appropriate uhf antenna (does not need to be channel specific)

cm jointenna tuned for ch 42

that's it - not an antenna but the antenna joiner for a specific frequency - hard to search in google without the right name - thanks!

Hello, I just finished installing a CM OTA antenna, with great HD results. But now I am concerned about how I grounded the system. I ran a splitter off the main transmission line. One coax lead will go up to the Sat multi-switch, and attach to a diplexor, so I can use the same line to feed the upstairs TV. The installer grounded the Sat system to a water outlet in the back yard.

The other part of the split goes around the base of the house to the side where it will enter the basement and feed the other TVs. This happens to be where the phone company buried a earth ground for their lines. I installed a grounding block at this point and attached a copper grounding wire and clamped the other end to the earth ground rod on top of the original phone company clamp. From the block I will run a line into the house to a distribution amp.

Does this seem to properly ground the Antenna?

One other question. The antenna was installed on a all-brick chimney which was built from the floor in the basement up to above the roof line of the house. I didnt ground the mast. I was thinking that the brick couldn't conduct electricity, and it was buried in the ground anyway.

How far off is this thinking? I am sure someone with experience in these installs will bash my thinking here. But I hope to learn from the experience. Thanks in advance!

I have been trying to receive DTV stations from adjacent markets. I am 8 miles from the Albany antenna farm, with nothing in the way. I have a Channel Master 4228 at 125' fed with 400' of 3/4" hardline. (8 db loss on UHF) Due to overload, I have been unable to use a preamp. My first attemp was two years ago using a UHF only Winegard AP-4700. The HDP-269 was not available at that time.

Last week I got a HDP-269 and assumed that it would work without overload. I was wrong. It actiually worked worse than the UHF only AP-4700. The 4228 picked up too many VHF signals that overload the preamp. The result was worse reception than with no preamp.

Next I used a VHF/UHF band Splitter/Joiner as a filter to attentuate the VHF signals with the 4228 connected to the UHF port. It helped, but the reception was no better than with no preamp.

I have learned that the HDP-269 cannot be reccomended with a 4228 unless the antenna is much further than 8 miles from the TV stations.

I'm guessing that those who have the 91XG may not experience the same problem because the 91XG is not very good at VHF reception.

For anyone who would like to compare their situation with mine, the Albany transmitters include;

WRGB channel 6 analog 93 KW ERP
WXXA-DT channel 7 DTV 9 KW ERP
WTEN channel 10 316 KW ERP
WNYT-DT channel 12 9 KW ERP
WNYA-CA channel 15 150 KW ERP
WMHT channel 17 2,630 KW ERP
WXXA channel 23 3,675 KW ERP
WTEN-DT channel 26 700 KW ERP
WMHT-DT channel 34 325 KW ERP
WRGB-DT channel 39 600 KW ERP
WCWN-DT channel 43 676 KW ERP
WCWN channel 45 2,950 KW ERP
W52DH channel 52 40 KW ERP
W58?? channel 58 20 KW ERP

There are about 6 full-power FM stations at the same location.

WNYT channel 13 analog is aimed away from the antenna farm.

The overload occurs even when my antenna is aimed away from the antenna farm.

Next I will build a filter from channel 26 through channel 38 to install prior to the preamp. That will attenuate all the strongest analog transmitters.

I have been trying to receive DTV stations from adjacent markets. I am 8 miles from the Albany antenna farm, with nothing in the way. I have a Channel Master 4228 at 125' fed with 400' of 3/4" hardline. (8 db loss on UHF) Due to overload, I have been unable to use a preamp.

Next I used a VHF/UHF band Splitter/Joiner as a filter to attentuate the VHF signals with the 4228 connected to the UHF port. It helped, but the reception was no better than with no preamp.

I have learned that the HDP-269 cannot be reccomended with a 4228 unless the antenna is much further than 8 miles from the TV stations.

For anyone who would like to compare their situation with mine, the Albany transmitters include;

WRGB channel 6 analog 93 KW ERP
WXXA-DT channel 7 DTV 9 KW ERP
WTEN channel 10 316 KW ERP
WNYT-DT channel 12 9 KW ERP
WNYA-CA channel 15 150 KW ERP
WMHT channel 17 2,630 KW ERP
WXXA channel 23 3,675 KW ERP
WTEN-DT channel 26 700 KW ERP
WMHT-DT channel 34 325 KW ERP
WRGB-DT channel 39 600 KW ERP
WCWN-DT channel 43 676 KW ERP
WCWN channel 45 2,950 KW ERP
W52DH channel 52 40 KW ERP
W58?? channel 58 20 KW ERP

There are about 6 full-power FM stations at the same location.

WNYT channel 13 analog is aimed away from the antenna farm.

The overload occurs even when my antenna is aimed away from the antenna farm.

Next I will build a filter from channel 26 through channel 38 to install prior to the preamp. That will attenuate all the strongest analog transmitters.

You are in the mountains, eight miles from your local broadcast tower farm. You had a reception tower installed that is 125 feet tall (or is that 125 feet above sea level?), and yet its downlead is 400 feet long, meaning that you put the tower up on higher ground, meaning that you had professional assistance with this project and you knew you were in a horrendous reception situation to begin with. What happened to your installer? Did he tell you this is a lost cause and abandon ship?

And you have a UHF-only antenna on this tower, making it poorly suitable for receiving your local PBS-DT 13.1, which is presently on VHF 12, and your local Fox DT 23.1, which is presently on channel 7, but which will surely revert to UHF after the transition because of the local channel 7 conflicts.

According to Antennaweb, the four of your six local DT channels are UHF (12, 26, 34, 39, and 43)..

Are you getting those four reliably?

Do you have a rotor installed?

There isn't a snowball's chance in hell that any kind of amplifier will improve your Albany reception. I also see that there are a few PBS and independent analog stations off in other directions at distances ranging from 40 to 80 miles away. TBN, PBS, and and ABC affiliate in Adams, Mass, but I don't even know if they are yet broadcasting digitally.

Is there any way for you, yourself to climb this tower to change your antenna? If so, then you might tend to improve your reception of 13.1/12DT and of 23.1/7DT by adding a Winegard or Antennacraft 7/13 antenna, which is fairly small.

Realistically, you need satellite TV for your HDTV local channel reception. If your market is not going to be so-served in the foreseeable future, then your only plausible alternative will be to set up a New York City address

Towerguy is 8 miles from the albany towers and likes to also receive distant signals.

He is trying to amplify alittle to improve distant reception but can not because of signal overload caused by amplification with his close proximity to the albany market towers...even with the hdp269 which is of lower gain (12db) with extremely high overload tolerance (300,000+).

The 91xg receives high band vhf rather well actually (ch9 here). Even receives ch5 without noise. which surprised me.

I installed my preamps at the grounding block on the ground and not at the antennas.

for two reasons...so I did not have to go to the roof every time I want to experiment and to take the edge off some of the signal. I did experience some overload but not enough to affect digital response... mostly analog.

going to purchase an ap 4700 tomorrow morning, experiment and compare results with the 2 hdp 269's I use here.

I've been thinking about the 4228 every one seems to think is a good one, but don't know if this is over kill.
For my situation.

I like to avoid a rotor if possible, since I have no easy way of routing rotor control cable to the attic.

I also have have a run of approx 200 ft of RG-6.

What do people suggest?

Thanks

There is no way the CM4228 is an overkill if your antennaweb numbers are correct. You have two of your digital stations rated by antennaweb as violet and two more at red, with two of your stations at over 60 miles - you are definitely in a fringe reception area. You also don't have an NBC or CBS digital listed at all. If I play around with antennaweb for your zip by increasing the height, I can get it to see CBS in Denver but still no NBC. I am not sure but maybe the NBC station is still not on full power.
You can find a lot more Ft Collins info in the Northern Colorado/se Wyoming thread here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...hlight=cheyenne
I suggest you post there and see what other people are receiving, and with what antenna.

Does this seem to properly ground the Antenna?

One other question. The antenna was installed on a all-brick chimney which was built from the floor in the basement up to above the roof line of the house. I didnt ground the mast. I was thinking that the brick couldn't conduct electricity, and it was buried in the ground anyway.

How far off is this thinking? I am sure someone with experience in these installs will bash my thinking here. But I hope to learn from the experience. Thanks in advance!

Search this thread for grounding and posts by AVS'er Greywolf:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=381623

According to Antennaweb, the four of your six local DT channels are UHF (12, 26, 34, 39, and 43)..

Are you getting those four reliably?

Do you have a rotor installed?



I have two antennas, one on the roof for the Albany stations and the one on the tower for DX.

The Albany stations are fine. I can get Adams, MA without the tower. PBS in Rutland is fine. WKTV-DT in Utica is also easy. Without the preamp I can also get a number of analog stations, both Fox and ABC from Utica, NBCs from White River Junction, VT and Hartford, CT. Channels 3 from either Burlington, VT or Hartford, CT were visable when I had an all channel antenna on the tower.

Yes, there is a rotator. I put up the tower myself. It is 120' of Rohn 45. The UHF filter that I used is not a commercial UHF splitter/Joiner, but a high pass filter that I built myself. It's a three element Pi section filter with a cutoff of 450 mHz. The capacitor is 5 pf, the two inductors are .015 uH each.

Now that the Burlington, VT DTV stations are up on MT. Mansfield, I was trying to get them. So far, no luck.

My real quest is for WWNY-DT in Watertown, NY on channel 35. I am hoping to see the Buffalo Bills when the local CBS station carries the Jets. WTVH-DT in Syracuse is closer, but there's an LPTV station on the same channel that is too strong.

I am not interested in playing "moving" games with satellite TV.

I was simply sharing my experiences with the highly rated HDP-269 preamp. It's not as good as it's made out to be.

Note to Rick0725: The HDP-269 with a UHF joiner should still outperform a AP-4700. The optimum should be two HDP-269's, one for VHF and one for UHF.

The HDP-269 with a UHF joiner should still outperform a AP-4700. The optimum should be two HDP-269's, one for VHF and one for UHF.

I am currently using 2 hdp-269 preamps, one for uhf and one for vhf.

I filter off the uhf on the hd8200p but never thought of filtering off the vhf on the 91xg.

Im going to try an ap4700 uhf preamp and filter off the vhf with another cm0549 on the 91xg for the heck of it latter this week.

I am currently using 2 hdp-269 preamps, one for uhf and one for vhf.

I filter off the uhf on the hd8200p but never thought of filtering off the vhf on the 91xg.

Im going to try an ap4700 uhf preamp and filter off the vhf with another cm0549 on the 91xg for the heck of it latter this week.

The AP-4700 has the filter built into it.

From my experiences, the AP4700 passes vhf and does not filter it (other brand of amps do filter).

Since the amp passes vhf and the 91xg has reasonable gain on high band vhf thought filtering the vhf off the 91xg would lessen vhf/uhf band interferences when I recombine inside?

Tower Guy,

FWIW, I am a TV/DTV DXer who lives 5 miles from the Indy antenna farm, including one local tower just 3 miles away (WTHR-13 @ 316 kW & WTHR-DT 46 @ 1000 kW). My antenna setup includes two Triax Unix 100 wideband UHF antennas horizontally stacked @ 30 feet (not on a 120 foot tower...wow!) with the CM 7775 preamp and an Antennacraft high-band VHF antenna @ 27 feet with a Motorola Signal Booster. Most of the posters here would definitely not advise the CM 7775 in my strong RF location, but I have minimal overload issues. Meanwhile, every VHF preamp I've tried has created way too many overload issues. That is why I'm using the signal booster, which doesn't overload and definitely helps with weak DTV signals.

Here's a link to a website where I've collected screen shots of some of the various DTV stations (100-plus miles) I've been able to receive (at least for a few seconds). The site also includes a pic of my antenna setup. http://new.photos.yahoo.com/goldrich3@sbcglobal.net/album/576460762323367709

YMMV, but at least this antenna setup works quite well for my highly-saturated signal area. The stacked UHF antenna array is very directional and greatly helps to null a lot of the strong local signals, much better than other antennas I've experimented with. It was designed and previously used by MAX HD in Greensburg, IN (halfway between Indy and Cincinnati). http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/NewTowerAntennas/

BTW, after trying a number of various STBs over the past five years, I believe one of the best STBs for DXing is the RCA ATSC11.

Best wishes in coming up with a workable antenna setup for your location.

Steve

Tower Guy,

FWIW, I am a TV/DTV DXer who lives 5 miles from the Indy antenna farm, including one local tower just 3 miles away (WTHR-13 @ 316 kW & WTHR-DT 46 @ 1000 kW). My antenna setup includes two Triax Unix 100 wideband UHF antennas horizontally stacked @ 30 feet (not on a 120 foot tower...wow!) with the CM 7775 preamp and an Antennacraft high-band VHF antenna @ 27 feet with a Motorola Signal Booster. Most of the posters here would definitely not advise the CM 7775 in my strong RF location, but I have minimal overload issues. Meanwhile, every VHF preamp I've tried has created way too many overload issues. That is why I'm using the signal booster, which doesn't overload and definitely helps with weak DTV signals.

Here's a link to a website where I've collected screen shots of some of the various DTV stations (100-plus miles) I've been able to receive (at least for a few seconds). The site also includes a pic of my antenna setup. http://new.photos.yahoo.com/goldrich3@sbcglobal.net/album/576460762323367709

YMMV, but at least this antenna setup works quite well for my highly-saturated signal area. The stacked UHF antenna array is very directional and greatly helps to null a lot of the strong local signals, much better than other antennas I've experimented with. It was designed and previously used by MAX HD in Greensburg, IN (halfway between Indy and Cincinnati). http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/NewTowerAntennas/

BTW, after trying a number of various STBs over the past five years, I believe one of the best STBs for DXing is the RCA ATSC11.

Best wishes in coming up with a workable antenna setup for your location.

Steve

Hi Steve;

Thanks for your story. In addition to a narrow filter, I'm also considering a Wade-Delhi 8' dish.

I know a bit about WTHR. David Letterman was replaced by Bob Gregory back in the early 70's. The GM in the 90's was Mike Corken, now retired.

The interesting part of this story is that DTV reception will get much easier when all the analog stations go off the air!

My TV is a 34" Zenith CRT TV built in 2002. I am more interested in overlaod characteristics than the multipath improvements in the 5th generation DTV chips. The multipath with the antenna at 125' is minimal.

From my experiences, the AP4700 passes vhf and does not filter it (other brand of amps do filter).

Since the amp passes vhf and the 91xg has reasonable gain on high band vhf thought filtering the vhf off the 91xg would lessen vhf/uhf band interferences when I recombine inside?


Let me know how it works out.

I am assumming that filter in the AP-4700 that bypasses the VHF would also keep the VHF signals from overloading the amplifer. Yet, my experience with the HDP-269 has shown that odd things can happen.

Hi.

I am currently using a cheap antenna (AV-891) with built-in preamp and rotor. I have no way of knowing the quality of either but it seems to be quite allright. However, I would like to use it indoors for the winter but the signal gets too weak for a good reception (barely).

My TV seems to needs ~17-18db for a stable lock. However, I am currently receiving most signals with a strenght of around 13-14db (I have a spliter connecting my TV + a DViCO FusionHDTV5 to get the db readout). I seem to have a little headroom if I could amply the signal as a whole since, if I aim the antenna correctly, I can reduce the strongest channel to around 24-25db while having the 13-14 for the rest.

Since I am a dummy in the world of amplification, what are my best options to give it a little push to the ~20db+ range (if at all possible) for a more stable connection?

Note: I'll be erecting a tower and replace this antenna with something with good back rejection next year so changing it now is not an option.

Thank you in avance,

TiM

Thanks for the reply.
I tried the link you posted however something must be wrong, since
I get the 404 error that the page is not found.

Could you repost that link is again.
Thanks
Greg

replace the antenna with something better . the antenna has a built in amp (34 db) and adding another amp most likely may not improve the situation.

A-Neutronics AV-891...I joke around about that antenna (piece of garbage)...someone actually purchased one...unbelievable.
As I said before, not replacing it right now and simply asked if it was possible to add an amp to give it a little humph that I need for stability. The amp isn't actually 34db, it's the combination of the amp + antenna. I'll have to ask for separate specs to see if replacing the preamp is an option (the one I would be using next years after my tower mount).

Regarding the «Piece of Garbage» comment, have you tried it? I know people feel its crap but considering that I am currently at 70miles from the tower and indoors, I feel its doing a pretty good job at almost locking on to a station considering the fact that I cannot really aim at the tower while indoors due to the orientation of the house (no window opening in that direction). When I put it outside of the house on the balcony about 10 feets above ground level, I am able to get all the channels perfectly at +25db except WVNY (RF13) which alot of people on the Montreal area are having problems with even with dedicated RF13 only antennas! I wonder how its a «piece of garbage» as you said for 30$ (antenna + preamp + rotor) but the only part where I agree with your comment is the quality of the component: lots of plastic and, if put outdoors, I woud really recommend some silicone around the joints of the plastic boxes to prevent a short!

Having some recent signal strength issues and want to re-integrate y CM pre-amp.
Current setup is this: CM4228 in attic, cabled out of attic to satellite on roof where singal is then diplexed into my family room with one of the satellite feeds and then split back out via a diplexer. I then split the antenna feed into my HR10-250 Directv HD tuner and direct to my HD TV. This has worked well for about a year but am having some recent troubles with a low signal on some stations. I am about 30 miles from the stations.

My question is how to add the pre-amp in the family room and pass the power to the antenna. I bought a new diplexer that passes power on one side. Do I put this in the family room with the pre-amp or does this need to go on the roof at where I split off to the satellite and attic antenna?

Any advice is appreciated.

A preamp normally comes in two parts, the amplifier and the power supply. The amplifier is best put as close to the antenna as possible. You want to amplify the best signal you can, not the one that has been degraded some by loss over the length of the coax. Then the problem becomes avoiding mixing the power from the satellite receivers with the power from the preamp's power supply. Some preamps can actually use the satellite receiver's power output to the LNBs instead of a power supply. The diplexer at the antenna and dish connection would be an all port power passing type in that case. The receiver's power goes to the LNBs and the preamp. The receiver will typically put out less power than the usual preamp power supply so a preamp designed to use receiver power is a good idea. The receiver output is 13VDC when requesting even numbered transponders and 18VDC when requesting odds while a typical preamp power supply is 24VDC.

To use a more powerful preamp with its own power supply, again the preamp is to be placed near the antenna. The preamp's power supply must be placed between the top diplexer and the antenna. Both diplexers need to be single port power passing types.

DirecTV will be moving all HD programming to Ka band MPEG4 channels probably sometime in the next couple of years. The equipment for that uses the B Band at 250-750MHz which conflicts with OTA signals. The B-Band converter that is normally placed on the receiver will also have to be above the top diplexer when using Ka band equipment. The H20-600, H20-100, and HR20-700 already have such capability and come with B-Band converters.

To use a more powerful preamp with its own power supply, again the preamp is to be placed near the antenna. The preamp's power supply must be placed between the top diplexer and the antenna. Both diplexers need to be single port power passing types.


I do have a powered pre-amp (CM7777 I think). My antenna is in the attic and I also have power up there. Would there be any reason why I could not power the pre-amp close to the antenna? Is that what you mean by placing the power supply between the top diplexer and the antenna?

Thanks.

Please help me with some basic antenna information. As a Dish satellite subscriber, I will be losing my ABC (a "distant network" out of Chicago, as there is no true local ABC). The closest ABC (the one carried by cable) is about 75 miles away. I am considering going the antenna route and forgoing locals carried by satellite, but don't know where to start.

I went to antennaweb.org to figure out if I could get reception, and it looks like I should be able to. (zip 62305). ABC is 71 miles away, VHF, and a "medium directional with pre-amp" was recommended. I understand that I need a directional, but all the other channels are only 5 miles away. Will a directional still pick up these closer signals? I read something about not using an amp with close signals - so will use of the pre-amp to pick up the station 71 miles away interfere with the reception of the close stations?

If you could clear this up for me, and give me some specific recommendations for antenna setup, I would really appreciate it. Thanks.

Please help me with some basic antenna information. As a Dish satellite subscriber, I will be losing my ABC (a "distant network" out of Chicago, as there is no true local ABC). The closest ABC (the one carried by cable) is about 75 miles away. I am considering going the antenna route and forgoing locals carried by satellite, but don't know where to start.

I went to antennaweb.org to figure out if I could get reception, and it looks like I should be able to. (zip 62305). ABC is 71 miles away, VHF, and a "medium directional with pre-amp" was recommended. I understand that I need a directional, but all the other channels are only 5 miles away. Will a directional still pick up these closer signals? I read something about not using an amp with close signals - so will use of the pre-amp to pick up the station 71 miles away interfere with the reception of the close stations?

If you could clear this up for me, and give me some specific recommendations for antenna setup, I would really appreciate it. Thanks.

KTVO analog is on channel 3. Reception of that may be possible. KTVO's DTV channel is 33, but is running 87 KW, not enough to go 71 miles.

Hence, an all channel antenna with as much gain as possible on channel 3 is called for. The Winegard HD-8200P is one such antenna. You will need a good rotator.

Another approach is a low band only antenna coupled to a UHF only without a rotator. Aim the low-band at KTVO, the UHF only at the Quincy stations.
Low-band: http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/YA1026.htm
UHF only: http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4221.htm
Joiners: http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm

A preamp is not needed on channel 3. Erect the antenna as high as possible.

The use of a preamp in a high signal strength area causes intermod. The intermod usually won't bother the strong local stations, but will cover up the weak distant stations. Hence, an overloaded preamp prevents reception of exactly the signal that you want to receive.

A preamp is more necessary on UHF than VHF. Your ABC analog on channel 3 won't be helped by a preamp even if it were not overloaded by the local stations.

Thanks. It's the specific recommendations like this that make this site so helpful.

so the end result is...going to have to live with a more simplifed system without amplification. The signal strength actually went up a few points after I removed all the electronics. But I can not receive the distant signals as well.

I found the same thing here. I'm considering the next step.
There's an amplifer designed for extremely high signal levels, the ZHL-1010-75.
http://www.minicircuits.com/dg03-176.pdf
The gain is a bit low at 9.5 db.

The other approach is filtering before the preamp and specific antennas for each distant signal - very complicated, but effective.

I'm mulling over what it would take to build a preamp that has multiple amplifiers, one for each section of the TV band. The famous 7777 has two amplifiers. What if there were 4 amplifiers set up as follows?
1. Low band
2. High band
3. UHF 14-36
4. UHF 38-69
I don't know yet if a filter that separates the UHF band as shown is practical. It's handy to have channel 37 as a dead channel.

Btw---retuned the jointenna to minimize adjacent attenuation on ch 54 digital.

...first tried instrumentation, then by eye and a little luck..
What are you using for "instrumentation"

You can probably get sharper notching of the undesired channel using a Winegard UT-2700, which is fairly inexpensive, though it is a little funky to tune.

A Blonder Tongue MWT-u will get you very tight notches, but at about $250 or so, it is cost prohibitive for most applications.

I would appreciate some help here:

I just bought a Sony KDF-42E2000, and needed an indoor antenna for OTA HDTV. I normally don't get Radio Shack stuff, but it was on the way home, and I have 30-days to try/return if need be, Target didn't have anything, so I bought RS's "Indoor UHF/VHF/HDTF Antenna with RF Remote Control" (# 15-892 in their catalogue). Here is a link to it at their website:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2131034&cp=&origkw=hdtv+antenna&kw=hdtv+antenna&parentPage=search

I went to AntennaWeb's site, and got the following results:

* yellow - uhf WJZY-DT 46.1 CW BELMONT NC 242° 24.2 47
* yellow - uhf WCNC-DT 36.1 NBC CHARLOTTE NC 242° 25.5 22
* yellow - uhf WMYT-DT 55.1 MNT ROCK HIL SC 242° 24.2 39
* yellow - uhf WBTV-DT 3.1 CBS CHARLOTTE NC 245° 25.7 23
* yellow - uhf WUNG-DT 58.1 PBS CONCORD NC 149° 17.6 44
* yellow - uhf WSOC-DT 9.1 ABC CHARLOTTE NC 175° 21.1 34
* yellow - uhf WCCB-DT 18.1 FOX CHARLOTTE NC 176° 20.6 27
* yellow - uhf WAXN-DT 64.1 IND KANNAPOLIS NC 175° 21.1 50
* green - vhf WTVI-DT 42.1 PBS CHARLOTTE NC 169° 19.8 11
* red - uhf WUNE-DT 17.1 PBS LINVILLE NC 308° 68.0 54
* red - uhf WFMY-DT 2.1 CBS GREENSBORO NC 75° 57.9 51
* violet - uhf WXLV-DT 45.1 ABC WINSTON-SALEM NC 75° 58.7 29
* violet - uhf WXII-DT 12.1 NBC WINSTON-SALEM NC 30° 61.1 31
* violet - uhf WMYV-DT 48.1 MNT GREENSBORO NC 75° 58.7 33

I hooked it up, left it in its default position, had my Sony search for channels, and I am able to get a good signal and picture from all the stations in yellow. I was pretty impressed. WMYT was a little dicey at times, but I found that choosing a different position setting for the antenna remedied that.

My only problem is that I can't pick up WTVI-DT, 42.x, out of Charlotte (which is where I'm near, and where most of the other stations that I do get are located). I have done some fiddling with the antenna's internal settings, its physical position, etc., but can't seem to pick up this station. According to the AntennaWeb site, this signal originates quite close in orientation to others that I receive fine, so I would guess that the physical position and orientation of the antenna isn't the problem.

I should mention that downstairs I have had a Mitsu WS-65869 RP-CRT HDTV for a number of years, hooked up to a rooftop antenna (Radio Shack Model Model: VU-90 XR or similar) on a rotor, and I receive this station without any problem. The new TV is on the 2nd floor, different side of the house.

I don't have any technical knowledge with respect to antenna design and reception, so am looking for some advice in terms of what I can do with this indoor Radio Shack antenna to pull in this VHF station. It has a set of 'rabbit ears' on the back, but I really don't know which signal these are supposed to pull in.

I can still return this, and get something different, but I am pretty impressed by the solid reception it provides for all the other 'yellow' stations on my list.

Any thoughts/recommendations/information appreciated.

don't have any technical knowledge with respect to antenna design and reception, so am looking for some advice in terms of what I can do with this indoor Radio Shack antenna to pull in this VHF station. It has a set of 'rabbit ears' on the back, but I really don't know which signal these are supposed to pull in.

The Rabbit Ears are used for the VHF....Try extending them out all the way...and you'll have to fiddle with it some!

The Rabbit Ears are used for the VHF....Try extending them out all the way...and you'll have to fiddle with it some!

Thanks for the quick reply.

I have done that, extending all the way, rotating them (and the unit itself) in various dimensions. My Sony has a live signal strength indicator, and it pretty much stays at 41 (and drops to 0 if I uncouple the antenna). When I check the strength on the others, they are generally at least 70, many over 90.

It's almost as if there is no VGA reception at all, but that at least theoretically is not the case, according to the specs for this antenna.

Any other thoughts or suggestions appreciated.

I found the same thing here. I'm considering the next step.
There's an amplifer designed for extremely high signal levels, the ZHL-1010-75.
http://www.minicircuits.com/dg03-176.pdf
The gain is a bit low at 9.5 db.

The other approach is filtering before the preamp and specific antennas for each distant signal - very complicated, but effective.

I'm mulling over what it would take to build a preamp that has multiple amplifiers, one for each section of the TV band. The famous 7777 has two amplifiers. What if there were 4 amplifiers set up as follows?
1. Low band
2. High band
3. UHF 14-36
4. UHF 38-69
I don't know yet if a filter that separates the UHF band as shown is practical. It's handy to have channel 37 as a dead channel.


A better choice might be the Minicircuits ZHL 2010 on the same page. It has a better gain number at 20 dB. I think 9.5 is simply too low if you have any significant loss to the receiver. The very high +26 dBm 1 dB compression point will help mitigate any overload problems (compare that with the +2 dBm output capability of the channel master 7777 or the + 13 dBm output of the Winegard HDP 269). Although it's a 50 Ohm amplifier that won't make much of a difference when interfaced with a wideband UHF antenna. All of the Minicircuits amplifiers need protection from the elements as they are not designed for outdoor use.

As for the multiple amplifiers, most amplifiers exibit significant gain outside their designed frequency of operation. You can't expect them to function as filters based on their frequency coverage specifications. You can effectively pre-filter, but the downside there is the insertion loss and mismatch loss of the filter, which adds directly to the noise figure.

what I ended up doing was

split the combined incoming signal with a 2 way splitter. used a 3 way splitter for 3 short runs (eliminated 1 line that was not used much to cut down on the losses) behind the hometheater system and installed a channel plus DA-500 distribution amp to amplify just the 2 long runs.

In line installed a radio shack variable attenutor after the distribution amp and adjusted till the co channel interference was not noticable (11 oclock on the dial).
I just found out about this:
http://www.triax.com/upload/triax_installers_guide_2006.pdf
See page 15.

it is a challenge that continues to torment me trying to find a solution that will allow me the best of both worlds...local and distant reception.

Try this;

Get two Triax splitters (listed 2 posts earlier) along with a VHF/UHF splitter/joiner. Connect one HDP-269 for the high UHF channels, another HDP-269 for the low UHF channels, and a straight through cable for VHF. Add the output of the two HDP-269's using a second Triax splitter, and then combine it to the VHF bypass cable with a second VHF/UHF splitter.

Each HDP-269 will have half the signals, but the peak power in each one will be 1/4 or less. The overload resistance should get better by 6 db to 600,000 uvolts.
The noise figure will be the loss of the splitters (1.5 db +/-) plus the noise of the HDP-269. The loss of the second Triax splitter and UHF/VHF joiner won't matter.

I'll do the same test when I get some time to play.

Hi,
Just wanted to clarify. A few posts up, towerguy recommended the 1026 antenna for me to pick up a vhf signal at 70 miles. On the sites that sell these, I've seen them recommended for up to 25 miles.

Is this really enough antenna for me, or do I need something that is rated for more distance, like the 4053p or 7080p? I don't know much about these, so sorry for the ignorance.

Hi,
Just wanted to clarify. A few posts up, towerguy recommended the 1026 antenna for me to pick up a vhf signal at 70 miles. On the sites that sell these, I've seen them recommended for up to 25 miles.

Is this really enough antenna for me, or do I need something that is rated for more distance, like the 4053p or 7080p? I don't know much about these, so sorry for the ignorance.

Don't go by distance, those numbers are meaningless.

Winegard rates the gain of the 1026 at about 5 db
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/Ya-1026.pdf

Yet an independant calculation suggests more like 8 to 9 db on channel 3.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

7080P 5 db
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/HD7080P.pdf
4053P low 6's db
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/HD4053P.pdf

If you compare the beamwidth's on the polar plots (not the tables), the 1026 has a narrower beamwidth than the 4053P. A narrow beam means more gain. So, the 1026 is better, but not by that much. I can't explain the discrepancy.

If you can find one, the Channel Master Y5-3 has 4.9 db gain for about $30
http://www.starkelectronic.com/acantena.htm#Y5
The part number Y5-2-6 means that there are 5 different antennas, one for each channel. Y5-3 is the channel 3 part number.

Here's an antenna with 10 db gain on channel 3, the Delhi 10 element channel 3 for model 10Y-3S $ 95.35.
http://www.starkelectronic.com/delhi.htm

I came across this small, low cost UHF 2 bay antenna for under $20;
http://www.eagleaspen.com/products/products_1.php?id=49

Of course, if you want to pay almost 3x the price for basically the same thing, this was posted in the 1st post in this thread :rolleyes: ;
http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB2_Indoor_antenna.html

6-8 db gain, increasing w/ frequency,
70-46 degree -3db beamwidth.
13" x 20" (6" deep)

Easily would fit in a closet mounted from the wall or ceiling with a wood block and a 2" PVC pipe. Could also be designed to turn. Perfect for apartments etc. where any outdoor antenna wouldn't work. Replaces a set top Silver Sensor with a far better antenna.

I was impressed with the built quality. The antenna is based on the Channel Master 4228, but only 2 bay instead of eight.

From the same company (importer) they also have a rotor. Looks like the much copied Channel Master design from 25+ yearts ago, but it has a control box that uses a remote control instead of the old style 'motor' and dial design.

What sets this apart is this is the first (that I know of) that uses DiSEqC code as in satellite control protocol that eliminates the separate rotor cable, but more so, they claim 2° 2° accuracy using Hall sensors that count every motor revolution. It also provides preamp power.

The only other way to get this 2° accuracy is with a $300+ amateur radio type rotor with a 5 or 6 wire rotor control cable.

http://www.eagleaspen.com/products/products_1.php?id=90

But, I do see three problems;

1. There is a 2db additional loss. This is because the downlead goes through the rotor and the control box as opposed to straight from the antenna to your TV.
2. This is fine for one TV, but for multiple sets, the feed for additional outlets would have to be off the output of the control box, not up near where the downlead enters the building (attic or crawl space). This is a serious issue with any setup other than one or maybe two TVs', especially where one has a 'weak signal' issue(s).
3. If you need to 'amp' the signal and you have issues with very strong and very weak signals, the amp would be after the control box also where additional loss already occured.

For me that is a no-no. That DiSEqC sounds good on paper, but with the small 350ma current limitation, it restricts the size of the motor and puts a serious restraint on the touque of the rotor. Fine for small antennas, but useless for large installs, same problem with FTA dishes.

...Winegard rates the gain of the 1026 at about 5 db
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/Ya-1026.pdf

Yet an independant calculation suggests more like 8 to 9 db on channel 3.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

7080P 5 db
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/HD7080P.pdf
4053P low 6's db
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/HD4053P.pdf

You are comparing Winegard's measured gain relative to a reference dipole with HDTVPrimer's "calculated" gain relative to an "isotropic radiator". The numberecl scale you should be looking at on their chart is the one on the right side, not the left side, and it indicates that the calculated gain of that antenna is about 6dBd

Winegard is legendary for furnishing the most inflated performance statistics it can justify, so it is wholly implausible that its actual performance is better than its own published specs.

If you compare the beamwidth's on the polar plots (not the tables), the 1026 has a narrower beamwidth than the 4053P. A narrow beam means more gain. So, the 1026 is better, but not by that much. I can't explain the discrepancy.

The antenna's gain is what it is. You can't compare gain between two dissimilar antennas by simply comparing the shape of their polar plots. A 1026 antenna is a ten element antenna tuned for channels 2-6 (54Mhz to 88Mhz). A 4053 is a monstrosity whose VHF section is tuned for channels 2-13 (54Mhz to 216Mhz). An antenna that is tuned from front to back for one channel will have a tighter beamwidth than will a broadband antenna with the same gain.

If you can find one, the Channel Master Y5-3 has 4.9 db gain for about $30
http://www.starkelectronic.com/acantena.htm#Y5
The part number Y5-2-6 means that there are 5 different antennas, one for each channel. Y5-3 is the channel 3 part number.

The "5" in the part number "5Y-2-6" means it has five elements: a dipole, a reflector and three directors. The 2-6 is the tuned bandwidth, meaning it is for channels 2 through 6

Edit: While Channel Master and Winegard apended the upper and lower channel numbers to their part number to bracket the tuned high and lowband (1713, for example is ten element, 7-13) after they had discontinued their true cut-to-channel models, it appears that Delhi actually uses separate numerical digits for each tuned channel model.

Winegard and Channel Master stopped making single channel, cut-to-channel antennas a decade ago. I think Jerrold recently started making cheap single channel VHF antennas sold under the Delphi brand name, but I'm not certain of that. I think I saw them in a liked page earlier in this thread somewhere.

Here's an antenna with 10 db gain on channel 3, the Delhi 10 element channel 3 for model 10Y-3S $ 95.35.
http://www.starkelectronic.com/delhi.htm

But the linked page says they are out of all but a few channels and will not be restocking. I don't know who esle carries these, or if they are ven still being manufactured.

Where did you get the 10dB gain figure? Does it say if that gain is with respect to dipole rather than isotropic? If not, then subtract 2.2 from the claimed gain figure.

Blonder Tongue, which only publishes honest numbers, says the gain of its BTY-5 cut-to-channel lowband antennas is just 8dB over isotropic, making them about 6dB over dipole, so if you basically put a few more directors on the front of it, you might get another three dB out of such a monstrosity, but consider that Blonder Tongue doesn't even make 10 element lowband antennas because they are rarely needed, and are very vulnerable to wind damage.

From the same company (importer) they also have a rotor. Looks like the much copied Channel Master design from 25+ yearts ago, but it has a control box that uses a remote control instead of the old style 'motor' and dial design.

What sets this apart is this is the first (that I know of) that uses DiSEqC code as in satellite control protocol that eliminates the separate rotor cable, but more so, they claim 2° 2° accuracy using Hall sensors that count every motor revolution. It also provides preamp power.

The only other way to get this 2° accuracy is with a $300+ amateur radio type rotor with a 5 or 6 wire rotor control cable.

http://www.eagleaspen.com/products/products_1.php?id=90

But, I do see three problems;

1. There is a 2db additional loss. This is because the downlead goes through the rotor and the control box as opposed to straight from the antenna to your TV.
2. This is fine for one TV, but for multiple sets, the feed for additional outlets would have to be off the output of the control box, not up near where the downlead enters the building (attic or crawl space). This is a serious issue with any setup other than one or maybe two TVs', especially where one has a 'weak signal' issue(s).
3. If you need to 'amp' the signal and you have issues with very strong and very weak signals, the amp would be after the control box also where additional loss already occured.

For me that is a no-no. That DiSEqC sounds good on paper, but with the small 350ma current limitation, it restricts the size of the motor and puts a serious restraint on the touque of the rotor. Fine for small antennas, but useless for large installs, same problem with FTA dishes.

What kind of off-air antenna array could this rig not drive? Even if it has five feet of mast above a throw bearing and several antennas, the only time you'd have an exessive load is if the wind was blowing in opposition to your direction of rotation.

Whether 350ma is adequate is determined in part by the gear ratio, and so possibly, they have geared this down a little to increase the force it can generate at the expense of speed of rotation. I've moved a 16 foor dish that weighed about two tons with a 1 amp actuator controller. I only had the breaker trip when the wind was blowing unfavorably.

I don't understand your concern about the 2dB of loss through what I guess is some kind of internal diplexer. The preamp will surely go between the rotor and the antenna, so the output level will be far enough above the noise floor to make that 2dB no more important than having another 30 to 40 feet of RG-6 coax. If you felt that because of some unique combination of strong and weak signals, you would ordinarily have to put the preamp somewhere down the line, then the 2dB of insertion loss will have the same desirable effect on the combined signal level as the additional coax length would have.

1. There is a 2db additional loss. This is because the downlead goes through the rotor and the control box as opposed to straight from the antenna to your TV. After I posted that it occurred to me, why not just uise a two conductor wire between the control box and the rotor either by soldering a F fitting on each end or changing the fitting on both to some more user frendly jack. You loose the 'one cable' advantage, but so what?I don't understand your concern about the 2dB of loss through what I guess is some kind of internal diplexer. The preamp will surely go between the rotor and the antenna, so the output level will be far enough above the noise floor to make that 2dB no more important than having another 30 to 40 feet of RG-6 coax. If you felt that because of some unique combination of strong and weak signals, you would ordinarily have to put the preamp somewhere down the line, then the 2dB of insertion loss will have the same desirable effect on the combined signal level as the additional coax length would have. I don't like external (inaccessible & subject to the weather) active (or even passive) devices and would go to extra lengths to avoid them. While that isn't always possible usually it is unless you are using a really tall tower and have to run a preamp to receive weak signals.

But, my point is, if you have a mix of very strong and very weak signals (over +30db and under -20db) that preamp will be overloaded to some degree without single channel traps. Notice I said 'traps', not a 'pad' which would defeat the purpose of the installation. What kind of off-air antenna array could this rig not drive? Probably nothing as far as actually just turning the antenna. My concern is that rocking back and forth in wind situations without a thrust bearing which almost no one uses (with consumer installs).

My 1 meter FTA disk (Winegard) dish using one of the largest H-H motors (Stab 120) struggles from the furthest western bird back east with that measly 350ma motor. It's only because of the extra gear reduction that it even moves the thing.

And yes, I realize the smallest of motors can do wonders with the right gear reduction..............

Winegard and Channel Master stopped making single channel, cut-to-channel antennas a decade ago. I think Jerrold recently started making cheap single channel VHF antennas sold under the Delphi brand name, but I'm not certain of that.........

http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/cutchannel.pdf

Locate a Delhi distributor through this link.
http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/Delhi_US_Distributors.htm

Steve

I live in Tiverton, RI, and just got a Sony KDS55A2000 SXRD TV. I want to put an antenna in my attic so I can receive OTA HD. I have checked Antenna Web, and the Providence HD towers are all less than 20 miles from my home, and within a few degrees of one another. Boston is about 50 miles. I tried a small Radio Shack antenna in my basement home theater, and could only get the Fox affiliate. I really don't want to put an antenna on my roof. Any suggestions? How is the DB4? Any help is greatly appreciated.

There is a rotor attached to the antenna on my roof. The landlady says it does work but there's no "control box" in the house, the last tenants apparently stole it (they stole a lot of stuff...drug addicts...long story)

So, anyway, the wire comes into the house and is a three-wire system. Is there somewhere I can buy a control box only and hook it up to see how well it works? I don't want to spend $100 or anything...where could I get one?

Flea market and/or Hamfest for starters. You coukld also try people that insdtall antennas, they might have a spare lying around.
You can get a remore control, control box (no motor inside) that will work with most Channel Master rotors and probably the clones for around $60 (I believe).

Akron05,

Think this will work ?

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/9537.htm

.PDF (http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/9521A%20File.pdf)

You should find out which rotor you have (Manufacturer and model #) to make sure the contoller unit would work with it. Some rotors use 3-wire, others use 5 or maybe 8 wires. Channel Master rotors use 3 wire. Radio Shack uses the Channel Master rotor/controller which can be upgraded to the remote control one.

I have the Directv 5LNB dish and would like to pick up more OTA HD channels with a DB4 or DB8 antenna that I plan to mount in the attic. My question is. I have a double coax cable running to the STB from the dish. One of the cables does not connect to the STB. Can I hook into this coax cable at the dish with a line from the antenna? If so, what would I need to make the connection?

Thanks! :confused:

I have the Directv 5LNB dish and would like to pick up more OTA HD channels with a DB4 or DB8 antenna that I plan to mount in the attic. My question is. I have a double coax cable running to the STB from the dish. One of the cables does not connect to the STB. Can I hook into this coax cable at the dish with a line from the antenna? If so, what would I need to make the connection?

Thanks! :confused:

You can connect the cable from your antenna to the "spare" cable using a barrel connector, just unplug it at the dish, but you should protect this connector from the weather using a cable "boot" and dielectric grease to keep the moisture out. Or if the "spare" cable runs through the attic make the connection there....

Just FYI, the CM4228 is a better antenna than the DB8 and is less expensive. Also if you have any VHF-hi band stations the CM4228 although (like the DB8) it is a UHF antenna has useful reception in VHF-hi, the DB8 is much poorer. And some of your UHF stations may be going back to VHF after 2009 when analog goes away. What's your zip code, it will help us give you advice on antennas....?

You can connect the cable from your antenna to the "spare" cable using a barrel connector, just unplug it at the dish, but you should protect this connector from the weather using a cable "boot" and dielectric grease to keep the moisture out. Or if the "spare" cable runs through the attic make the connection there....

Just FYI, the CM4228 is a better antenna than the DB8 and is less expensive. Also if you have any VHF-hi band stations the CM4228 although (like the DB8) it is a UHF antenna has useful reception in VHF-hi, the DB8 is much poorer. And some of your UHF stations may be going back to VHF after 2009 when analog goes away. What's your zip code, it will help us give you advice on antennas....?
I'm in central Connecticut at 06109. Thanks for any info!

A recent problem has developed and I haven't been able to fix it. All of a sudden, I am having touble receiving some of my OTA locals. I know it not my antenna specifically because I can mov it and get a strong signal when I am pointing at a specific tower.

I have a CM 4228 with CM7777 pre-amp. I have removed one of the screens from the 4228 and up until a couple of weeks ago was able to get my locals.

Part of the problem is that my locals are about 120 degrees a part as follows:

FOX (19) and ABC (41) 4 miles at 168 degrees
NBC (23) and CBS (47) 16 miles at 288 degrees

It would be much easier to join two antennas if the lower channels were one direction and the higher ones the other, but that is not the case.

I am willing to try joining two antennas but am slightly confused about how something like a jointenna works. I see specific ones for VHF channels, but on ranges for UFH channels.

Any suggestions as to how to use two antennas with a jointenna to solve my problem?

Thanks.

a jointenna allows you to insert a signal from another antenna with a specific channel without interference. it can also be wired to be used as a filter attenuating a specfic channel about 20 db.

the vhf models are single channel models. there are 3 uhf models.

UHF Channels Model Number
ch14-29 cm0585-1
ch30-49 cm0585-2
ch50-69 cm0585-3

if you want to insert ch 56 for example you would order#cm 0585-3 for ch 56. jointennas are special order with a 2 week leadtime.

the issue to be aware of is that the uhf jointenna attenuates signals 5 channels either side of the channel you want to insert. If you want to insert ch 56 and you have a ch 54 digital, ch 54 will be attenuated.

to install, there are 2 inputs and 1 output
-antenna in for ch you want to insert (ch 56 for example)
-antenna in for the all channel antenna (cm4228, vhf/uhf combo, etc)
-out to tv.

see picture

at my home, use the 91xg for all channel uhf and insert ch 56 with a jointenna#cm 0585-3 tuned to ch 56. I use a 2 bowtie antenna mounted to the side of the house . The jointenna is mounted near the grounding block.

I also use my old hd8200p for vhf only and combine the uhf after the jointenna with a cm0549 vhf/uhf spliter/combiner, see pic.

works pretty darn good too. Insertion loss is only .5db to boot.

Hey guys!

I just bought a house. I noticed that there are two huge antennas on the roof. I guess they used these for TV in good old days.

I am planning to put up a new roof in a week or so. Should I get rid of those antennae or just leave them there. Do I need to put a new antenna for HDTV or I can get signals from this one ?


Also if I wanted the antenna go to more than one room, how do i do that?

appreciate your help

Hey guys!

I just bought a house. I noticed that there are two huge antennas on the roof. I guess they used these for TV in good old days.

I am planning to put up a new roof in a week or so. Should I get rid of those antennae or just leave them there. Do I need to put a new antenna for HDTV or I can get signals from this one ?


Also if I wanted the antenna go to more than one room, how do i do that?

appreciate your help

There is no significant difference between an old TV antenna, and a "digital" antenna. The new so called "digital" antennas are more likely to be UHF only since most digital stations are in the UHF band. Also, some of the new antennas try to maintain a more modern apperence and smaller size, often at the expense of performance. But other than that, the old designs are usually as good if not better than many of the "digital" variety even for digital reception as long as you do not mind their retro apperance.

The real question is what type of antenna do you have, VHF, UHF, or combined, and is it still in good working condition? Do you know how old it is? Does it look like it was properly installed with grounding blocks etc? Are any elements bent or missing? How is the lead in cable?

Antennas, wires and even the mounts do not last forever. The lower quality ones can degrade quickly when exposed to bad weather, so it is hard to say how servicable yours might be. It is also possible that it was never installed correctly to begin with which could be unsafe. It would be best to have someone who knows what they are doing look at it for you to see if it would be worth keeping.

the hdtvprimer website is very complete but is hard to read

there are other sites that are easier to read like stallions and howtoinstalltvantennas

I'm in central Connecticut at 06109. Thanks for any info!

I can give you advice based on your location and the results from antennaweb.org but I suggest you consult an antenna expert who lives in New London, he can give you advice based not just on the theory but on a knowledge of what the individaul stations are doing and what actually works in your area. His "handle" is tigerbangs and he can be contacted through the forum at http://www.highdefforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=9. Suggest you start off by posting there and see what advice he can give you.

Well this happened to me a second time. On Saturday December 2nd, I woke up to find that my antennas had been knocked down for the second time. The first time this happened was at the end of March 2006. I had to get 2 new antennas and a new antenna mast. I also managed to get a TB-105 support bearing. I had gotten the person who I bought my tower from (and who erected it) to install my 2nd set of antennas. He placed the rotator on top of the top triangle plate and did the whole set-up. However there was a problem with using the TB-105 support bearing - the 2 masts were slightly off so I had a problem rotating my antennas. They would rotate for a bit and then jam.

When they came lose this time, the antenna mast was still connected to the rotator (lying on it's side on the top triangle plate). The tower mast (which connected the rotator to the tower) had bent severely, causing the rotator with the mast and antennas to flip about 90 degrees. The good thing was since the rotator was still attached this kept the antennas away from the tower so they weren't damaged.

The installer came in on the Sunday a tied a rope from the antenna mast to the tower just in case (it was too windy on Saturday or Sunday to bring the antennas down). On Monday he came in and safely brought down the antennas with the mast and rotator. We discussed the new set up - moving the rotator inside the tower, mounting the Wade-Antenna support bearing on top of the top triangle plate, and placing another mast inside my mast to make it more rigid.

He waited until there was low wind day which was a week later (Monday Dec 11th) and got about 2/3 done. He came on the next day (yesterday) and finished it off. He told me that my rotator had died on him when he was mounting a bracket on it which would connect it to a new bottom triangle plate. He's selling me a used rotator (an older Channel Master unit that's suppose to be a heavy duty one. He states that the current Channel Master rotators are light duty and are not as good quality as the older ones since Channel Master has been bought out by another company).

Before he left yesterday, we synched the antennas to North and rotated them around abit. So no more rotating problems. However, I think there might be another problem. He mounted my VHF antenna (Wade VIP-307SR) lower, so it is about 1 foot above the top of the tower. I don't know if this is the cause or not, but I found I'm having reception problems using that antenna. Channels that I used to get, I'm having problems with. It could be the weather, since it's been overcast/rainy the last 2 days.

Well yesterday was a nice sunny day. I went throught channel 2-68 on my VHF antenna and it's the same thing. Channels that I was getting clear, I don't get very well. So, it's not the weather. I think the problem is that the VHF antenna is mounted too low on the mast, and too near the tower (about 1 foot above the top of the tower) and this is causing the interference. I think the VHF antenna needs to be raised another 1.5 feet (total about 2.5 feet above the tower).

(Apologies for double-posting this.)
Trying to find out why my rotor isn't working...
In testing my rotor controller, I found anywhere between 25 and 30 volts output across any two posts no matter which direction it was turning. Does this make sense?
One would think that the "wide wire" is common and wouldn't each of the other two wires only have voltage depending upon the direction. Or do I not undertsand the way this works?
Thanks,
Dave

I've really been itching to do a quad of DAT 75's. I have a Lindsay 2 way combiner so called up Lindsay to order a 4 way model. Lindsay UHF/VHF combiners (http://www.lindsayelec.com/antenna/commercial.catv/v-u-combiners.html)

Guess what? They no longer manufacture them. Called fellow AVS'er MaxHD to see if he could help and although he didn't have a source for the 4WCU, he did have a couple Televes ref. 5006's on hand which are basically preamp/uhf combiners all in one. Televes ref. 5006 (http://www.televes.com/hojastecnicas/103758.pdf) I figured maybe I could use them with a power passing splitter to do the quad. I ordered the DAT 75's from cpc with the usual 7:00 a.m phone call due to the time difference.:)

Guess what? The DAT75's now have redesigned larger reflectors (presumably for added gain in the lower uhf). Needless to say, I was a little dissappointed as I wanted 4 identical antennas. I decided to try anyway though. In the meantime, I called/emailed Lindsay again (acting more desperate this time) and an extremely helpful person there found a 4WCU for me :D . Through all of this in the last month or so, I've been trying various combinations for this setup and thought I'd share my results here.

Equipment:
4 semi-identical Televes DAT 75's
Research Comm. 9253 HDTV LNA with ps
Televes ref. 5006 x2 with ps x2
Lindsay 2WCU and 4WCU uhf combiners
Lindsay LS2A vhf combiner
power passing wide band uhf splitters of various brands

Initially, using the ref 5006's through a power-passing splitter didn't work very well. The performance overall was less than that of just a horizontal stack with the 2WCU combiner into the RC 9253 LNA. I suppose the phasing just wasn't perfect enough through the splitter. For novices out there, phasing is critical when combining antennas for added gain. The signals need to be identical as possible and in-phase which means everything needs to be symmetrical (i.e. equal signal paths and cable lengths) up to the point of combination.

Using the 2WCU as the power-passing splitter worked better. I'd say about equal in performance to the initial horizontal stack. Incidentally, this configuration isn't actually a quad stack. It's better termed a stack-of-stacks. No matter what the combination, it seemed that a vertical stack of horizontal stacks outperformed a horizontal stack of vertical stacks. Not sure why that is but it wasn't even close.

Using regular resistive splitters, whether 3 dual or one 4-way didn't work at all for me. Others seem to have some success using these, but I can't say they work at all.

Next up, the true quad (actually an H-quad) using the 4WCU into both the ref 5006 (using only a single input) and the RC 9253. The ref 5006 held it's own BTW against the 9253. Not sure if I could tell any major differences. The quad, however, was overall somewhat dissappointing. I tried various stacking distances and it seemed 36 inches square worked the best. There were some channels for which it seemed to perform excellent, but others were poor. I think it may be that it's difficult to phase a true quad properly for a wide band setup and this would work better for narrow-band or single channel setups. I also couldn't really get the antennas much closer than 36 inches square (due to the megareflector on the new DAT75) so it may be that the phasing would have improved at closer distances. I did figure out a way to create an identical 4-antenna array BTW. The reflectors are interchangeable so I tried it with one large and one small on each antenna. It worked, but overall it seemed to worka little better in the pictured configuration below. Also, you'll notice I've added screening to the reflectors. This improves F/B ratio and helps me with co-channel interference I have between an analog and digital 34. Anyhow, that's a whole other story.

So, needless to say, at this point I was quite bummed with the quad stack performance. I then tried using the 2WCU and the 4WCU (used as a 2-way) to combine the stacks through the ref 5006. For some reason, this just wouldn't work. The 2WCU and 4WCU are exactly the same size/length and the only internal difference that I could see is that the 4WCU has 4 f-sockets soldered inside the end of the combiner while the 2WCU only has 2. Obviously, there must be more difference than that as they just wouldn't phase at all. Maybe someone who knows how stripline combiners work can answer this?

So, almost in desperation (again), I decided to try to use the 2WCU and the LS2A to combine each stack. The stacks were then combined through the ref 5006's dual uhf inputs. I compensated for the added length of the 2WCU by adding corresponding length to the cable coming off the LS2A (actually, I tried multiple lengths and settled on 13 inches as the best). Bingo! It worked. Performance now surpassed that of the original horizontal stack throughout the uhf band. It's difficult to quantify exactly, but I'd say my performance now is overall similar from channels 14-38 to my Triax Unix 100 Band A stack. This is excellent performance in this range for a wide-band uhf setup. For channels 39 and up, I'd say better by a small margin over the original DAT 75 stack.

Obviously, the next logical step would be to replace the LS2A with another 2WCU. However, I'm not sure when one will turn up and my WAF doing all this is currently on empty. :) :)

I'll keep you posted.

Charles

what did you use for screen and how did you attach it.

with the 91xg would you cover the entire screen or partial as you did?

please explain.

what did you use for screen and how did you attach it.

with the 91xg would you cover the entire screen or partial as you did?

please explain.

1/2 inch chicken wire (available at Lowe's) fixed with plastic wire ties to each top and bottom reflector.

I covered the entire back except for the top and bottom most space of the earlier vintage DAT 75 with the small reflector and the same area of the larger one to cut down some on wind load.

The XG's reflector is even a little smaller than the earlier DAT75's so I'd probably just cover it entirely. OTOH, the XG's is already a mesh-type so it may not help as much.

What is the purpose of the wire cage material on one side of CM 4221/4228 and DB2/4/8 antennas?

What happens if I remove it?

Thanks.

What is the purpose of the wire cage material on one side of CM 4221/4228 and DB2/4/8 antennas?

What happens if I remove it?

Thanks.

It's there to block signals coming from the back. If you remove it, the antenna will become more bidirectional. Usually this is a disadvantage unless you have a specific reason for allowing a signal in from the back.

What is the purpose of the wire cage material on one side of CM 4221/4228 and DB2/4/8 antennas?

What happens if I remove it?

Thanks.
Multipath is caused by signals being received by the antenna from different directions--and hence with different arrival times.
Digital receivers have a very limited tolerance to multipath, esp. when the various signals are more or less the same signal strength.

Antennas maximize gain in the desired direction by minimizing gain in undesired directions.
The reflector screen attenuates the usually strongest multipath signal, which occurs when the signal reflects
back off of buildings and hills slightly further along the signal path than your antenna.

Think of a flashlight reflecting off of an all-glass high-rise into the "back' of your antenna....
vice glancing reflections from buildings and hills off to the side of the direct signal path....

If you have signals coming from opposite directions, taking the screen off can help to receive signals
on the former "back" of the antenna....although with a lower (-3 dB) gain towards the "front"....

This will also receive a lot more multipath...which may or may not be tolerable, depending on topography, geometry, et. al......
So, as usual, it's pretty much trial and error...

Thanks for the explanation. My dad lives at about 120 degrees between tower farms, so I have tried tweaking his antenna to receive both signal with mediocre sucess.

However, for the bowl games, I had to go on the roof and peak for CBS for the Gator and then go back up to peak for the Rose and the rest of the BCS games. He will watch Saturday's NBC games in SD.

So my options are a joiner, which will be hard given how the channels are, just combining 2 antennas and seeing what happens or removing all or part of the screen on his DB4.

So my options are a joiner, which will be hard given how the channels are, just combining 2 antennas and seeing what happens or removing all or part of the screen on his DB4.

Or, of course, installing a rotator. ;)

(it appears that you have an outdoor antenna)

Or, of course, installing a rotator. ;)
The proble with a rotator is that the antenna is hooked to a D* HR10 and it has no way to change the direction when it wants to record something.

So my question on buying a dedicated UHF antenna like the Dat 75 is this: If in 2009 all HDTV stations have to give up their UHF bandwidth and switch back to the VHF 2-13 frequencies, what will that mean for my $200 investment?

Thanks for the help in trying to figure this out.

So my question on buying a dedicated UHF antenna like the Dat 75 is this: If in 2009 all HDTV stations have to give up their UHF bandwidth and switch back to the VHF 2-13 frequencies, what will that mean for my $200 investment?

Thanks for the help in trying to figure this out.

The switch will be to channels 2-51. UHF reception for 14-51 will still be needed. Check your local thread to see where your locals will end up. Most final channel assignments have been decided had this point.

Whether the DAT75 is worth it is another discussion. There are antennas which are equal or at least very close in performance for much less. The big problem with the DAT is of course the shipping cost assuming you live in the US.

Hey I am wondering if anyone could give me some advice on a preamp. I just hooked up a Channel Master 4228 and I am hoping to pick up stations from 65 miles away. Currently without a preamp, I am able to get a signal that never drops out from WVNY-22 (physical channel 13). They are broadcasting at 10kW. I am getting whispers on CBS WCAX-3 (53, 628 kW) and NBC WPTZ-5 (14 ~330 kW) and WFFF-44 (43 ~40 kW). They are all, including WVNY, broadcasting from the same mountain peak. I have 50 feet of cable in a direct run from the antenna to my tv. Would a preamp make the difference to bring in at least one of the other 3?

Hey I am wondering if anyone could give me some advice on a preamp. I just hooked up a Channel Master 4228 and I am hoping to pick up stations from 65 miles away. Currently without a preamp, I am able to get a signal that never drops out from WVNY-22 (physical channel 13). They are broadcasting at 10kW. I am getting whispers on CBS WCAX-3 (53, 628 kW) and NBC WPTZ-5 (14 ~330 kW) and WFFF-44 (43 ~40 kW). They are all, including WVNY, broadcasting from the same mountain peak. I have 50 feet of cable in a direct run from the antenna to my tv. Would a preamp make the difference to bring in at least one of the other 3?

A preamp may be enough for WCAX, but I doubt that it would get the others. Channel 14's power is about 3 db below channel 53 and the 4228 has less gain on channel 14. WFFF at 40 kw...never mind.

The 91XG is a better choice for 14, but it won't do 13.

What more can you do? Try other locations for the antenna. Sometimes higher isn't better when the signal is refracted off a mountain. Your reception of channel 13 suggests that you are behind some terrain.

You can also stack two antennas for more signal.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/16bay.html

I'm moving into a new part of a subdivision that will not have cable ran to it for a couple more months. In the meantime I was just going to use an antenna. According to antennaweb, I will be within 15 to 20 miles of all of the local stations I'm interested in. These are a mixture of red blue and violet and are in the same direction. Lowes has a Channel Master Stealthtenna Outdoor Antenna that looks ok. If I use this with an indoor booster can I just hook it up to the main cable line and run all my TVs off it. I would prefer not to put up a big boom antenna. In too months after I can get cable I plan on just putting it on and AB switch to use as a backup incase the cable goes out.

A preamp may be enough for WCAX, but I doubt that it would get the others. Channel 14's power is about 3 db below channel 53 and the 4228 has less gain on channel 14. WFFF at 40 kw...never mind.

The 91XG is a better choice for 14, but it won't do 13.

What more can you do? Try other locations for the antenna. Sometimes higher isn't better when the signal is refracted off a mountain. Your reception of channel 13 suggests that you are behind some terrain.

You can also stack two antennas for more signal.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/16bay.html

I'm actually almost at the top of a hill, there's maybe 10 more feet of elevation and then there is a great shot to Burlington and Montreal. It doesn't make much sense to me

Hi, I have an Digital amp and Analog amp and 2 HDTV

1 tv has a line from from the Digital amp (get more Digital HD with high signal)

2 tv has line going from the Digital to Analog amp then to the tv (get few digital HD with much lower singal that go in and out)


If line is going through a Digital then Analog amp does the Analog negate the Digital amps work?

I attach picture of diagram

Pic (http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3553h/New%20Bitmap%20Image.JPG)

Cause only 2 tv have atsc tuner and rest are ntsc and when we got the d.amp we only have one tv with atsc tuner


I just wana know if the line I using on my tv which is going through the d.amp then a.amp if I take the a.amp out of the line would it fix the signal problem my tv has cause it very low on digtal channels while other line that isnt going through the a.amp has nice signal


Antenna=unknown
a.amp=rca
d.amp=channel master

probably about 35-45 feet total of coxial

Im sorry the Channelmaster one is Pre-amp 1way(model 0064 DSB) digital amp only while the rca is 4way a.amp is analog only or so i told

I need both amps cause some one "needs" to have there ntsc signal amp or it all snow and in general with out the amp/pre-amp analog is snow and digital dont come in

As the Tv1 only pick up the digital channel all the analog channels are snow

Tv2 Pick up Digtal channels that TV1 gets but the signal is terrible this line and mostly go out this is on a spliter one line goes to my tv and the other tv

we also have Channel master antenna rotator but moving constanly not really and option

Talked to my dad some more about the setup since it was setup before i even got my tv
pic update (http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3553h/New%20Bitmap%20Image.JPG)


this setup would imply my line is not going through the psu for the digital amp.... which would explian why my digital singal strength is bad but analog is good.....but this would imply he not get the analog channels cause he going through the psu for the digital amp???

maybe I should put the psu for the CM amp first then have that go to the 4way rca amp but if I did this analog channels would be snow every other tv get analog channels fine and I cant have that as they dont come in on tv1.. and run another line so I dont go through a spilter?

BTW I try to pick up Ny,New york locals as the suppliers to North NJ

CBS-2
NBC-2
FOX-5
ABC-7
UPN-9
WB/CW-11

Hello,

I've just gotten my hand on an old CM 0064C preamp (Spartan 2). It has a single 300 Ohm UHF/VHF combined input.

I wasn't able to find any specs for this model on the web.

Anyone here knows what the specs for this older model are?

Thanks!

tsunami2311---

your digital amp at the antenna is not getting the injected DC voltage to operate, it is probably blocked at the distribution amp. Plus, it is usually a bad practice to try to amplify an amplified signal - injecting way too much noise into the signal.

you need to simplify your setup. The amp at your antenna should be a very high grade Winegard or Channel Master unit and replace the "analog amp" with a high grade 4 way splitter. put the voltage injector for the antenna amp in-line before the splitter.

in reality, there is not such thing as a digital vs. analog amp. They all amplify the RF signal regardless of it's modulation.

cm7777 question.

is it a good idea to terminate the unused port on the cm7777 preamp. if terminated, what affect should it have on overall system performance.


I Also have a cm7777 preamp question. I have one connection between my power supply and the amp and I unscrewed the connection to replace the connector with a new one while the power supply was plugged in. I noticed a small electrical arch when I began screwing them back together. Did I damage my preamp with my negligence? Sorry if this is a stupid question.

I Also have a cm7777 preamp question. I have one connection between my power supply and the amp and I unscrewed the connection to replace the connector with a new one while the power supply was plugged in. I noticed a small electrical arch when I began screwing them back together. Did I damage my preamp with my negligence? Sorry if this is a stupid question.It depends on whether the spark was from making the connection or shorting the leads. If there was damage, it won't work at all.

Ok guys I bought the Channel Master 4228 antenna today and put it up.
One of the tech guys at the electronics store made a phone call to an installer and he said the antenna that's half the size of the 4228(8 bay) and an amp would be plenty and that the 4228 and amp would be too much and I might get some bleed through from other channels.

I decided to just get the 4228 and put it up without an amp and see how it does.
I did buy the amp but will only hook it up if I need to.
The amp is Winegard AP-4700 PRE AMP.

So the antenna is up and the antenna cable comes down the side of the house to a splitter block and that is about a 25' run. Then the antenna cable runs maybe 10' to the H20 Directv receiver and also about 30' from the splitter block to my HR10-250 receiver.

Here is my dilemma. The H20 gets all the local HD stations I could want with no pixelization. On the sat strength screen all the channels come in between 66% to 78%. On the HR10-250 channel 23-1(fox) doesn't come in at all. I cant seem to get the OTA signal strength meter to work on the HR10-250.

What should I do? Add the amp to the antenna to get in the stations? Replace the cable on the HR10-250?
Is the HR10-250 known for needing a stronger signal?

My concerns are that I might over power the H20 if I hook up the amp but I think that's what I'm going to do today. We'll see how it all works out while I'm hooking it up.

I also have a HR20 coming Feb 1st : ) Then I guess the HR10-250 will replace the H20 in the other room.

Thanks for the help : )

I hooked up the amp and now the h20 gets 905-100% on all my OTA HD stations and two are 45 miles away so that's pretty good.
The HR10-250 now gets all the OTA stations in HD but the signal meter still doesn't work.

Thanks for the help : )



try it down low first outside at the splitter block so you do not have to climb . or at the antenna if you want to get on the roof.

see how it works inside, make sure the aim of the antenna is right on.

if the amp does not overload, install at the antenna. the sign of overload would be co channel interference on analog and signal going down on digital aimed at the towers and as you aim away, the signal would go up.

do not worry about overkill. in over 30 years of doing this, I never experienced overload with an oversize antenna unamplified unless the towers were "across the street".

on the hr10 if the signal meters do not work unplug the unit for a minute and let it restart. this is common especially after the update a few months ago.

In case this info might be useful to anyone, I've finally figured out what was wrong with my quad. The "new" DAT 75 with the large reflector also has a new PCB balun. By trial and error and alot of hair pulling, I've been able to phase the "old" and "new" DAT 75's by adding around 5.5 inches to the cables on the "old" DAT 75. The signal path inside the PCB on the new one is apparently longer and this would also seem to be confirmed by inspecting the PCB itself.

Obviously, it would have been nice if Televes would have made this info more readily available. They probably should have redesignated the new antenna with a different model number as well IMO.

cm7777 question.

is it a good idea to terminate the unused port on the cm7777 preamp. if terminated, what affect should it have on overall system performance.

I've tried it with a 75 ohm terminator on the vhf port and it didn't seem to make any difference even with the internal switch at "separate". With the internal switch this way, the inputs are run through a vhf/uhf internal diplexer so it really shouldn't make a difference. With the switch at "combined", only the uhf/combined input is active so again there wouldn't likely be any effect.

Using 75 ohm terminators on the unused inputs of my Lindsay quad combiner (while using as a dual combiner) actually seemed to make things worse.

Did you try swapping the two wires from the balun to the antenna without using the short length of coax? The balun input polarity will cause a zero or 180 degree phase shift depending on which way it is connected. The ones I had had no polarity markings on them so I had to test them, two at a time looking at signal strength on a spectrum analyzer to see if signals summed from them increased or decreased. After I had determined the proper way to sum signals I marked one lead with a blue terminal lug which always went on the left side of the antenna.
John

The PCB baluns don't have reversible polarity like a ferrite one. You can simply turn the antenna upside down to reverse the polarity if you need to though.

If you compare the "new" and "old" DAT 75 PCB you can easily see the longer circuit tracing on the board with the new one. They have different part numbers on the board as well.

I did actually try bypassing the PCB baluns with identical CM ferrite baluns. After getting it all phased, the performance was dissappointing. These antennas are obviously designed around the PCB balun.

I need to know what i need to do to pick up HDTV channels. I have a standard cable and a standard cable box. i have been looking at the HDTV antenna and the only one that looks like the right one for me is the Trek indoor antenna. Will this work and will it pick up the HDTV channels or is there anything better for my situation.

First of all, we need to know your location, at least zipcode and preferably nearby cross streets.
You can help by plugging your location into www.antennaweb.org and cut/paste the results table
into your next post on the "ANTENNAS" thread, which is better equipped to deal with this question:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9572713#post9572713

Be sure to describe how much "stuff" (buildings, trees, hills) there is between you and the desired towers,
whether you want to try for anything other than "yellow & green", and whether an attic or patio is available.

This thread may also be of use:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=611957&page=1

I looking for a good indoor antenna to receive HDTV in Terre Haute, IN and outlaying areas? Does anyone have some good recomindations for me? I have looked at winegard gs 2200, winegard ss 3000 or terk hdtvlp, terk hdtvi, antennas direct db2, zenith silver sensar. I am just wondering what is the best for indoor use. Any recomindations would be appreciated. Thanks

if you will post your ZIP code, forum members can research www.antennaweb.org and give you a better recommendation.

My zip code is 47807

Hi
I hope you guys can help me. This is what I got from antennaweb:
* yellow - uhf WGFL-DT 28.1 CBS HIGH SPRINGS FL 257° 13.4 28
* yellow - uhf WUFT-DT 36.1 PBS GAINESVILLE FL 311° 2.6 36
* yellow - uhf WCJB-DT 20.1 ABC GAINESVILLE FL 198° 10.7 16
* green - uhf WOGX-DT 51.1 FOX OCALA FL 180° 22.7 31
Note the four orientations (180,199,257,311) and the distance, furtherst being 22.7 miles. I am only interested for these digital signals for my samsung SIR-T451 HDTV tuner.

The issue is that I do not want a rotor and another remote since the orientations are spread out. I want all the channels available at the same time. The signal is going to 1 TV. I got two recomendations:
1) Get a DB8 (multidirectional with 100° beam width) antenna and aim 1 array (ie a DB4 antena) at 190° (to get 180° and 198° transmitters) and the other array at 285° (to get 257° and 311°). I am afraid of ghosting and multipath (what is multipath?). Basically two multi-directional antennas in different directiond.
2) Get a DB4, basically one array of DB8, (multidirectional with 90° beam width) and aim it at 210° to get (257°,198° and 180° - all within a 80° beam width) and hope to get 311° from behind (but the back of 210° is 30°) since it is 2.5 miles away. If I cannot receive it then add a small directional antenna to avoid ghosting.

Is choice (2) good? If I were to add the second directional antenna what equipment will I need (e.g. combiner) and more important what distance should I leave between the multidirectional and directional antennas or the two multidirectional if I were to go with choice (1) (vertical and horizontal - I have the liberty to place them in different places).

Thank you for taking the time to read this and I appreciate any help.
Stressed OTA fan.

Hi
I hope you guys can help me. This is what I got from antennaweb:
* yellow - uhf WGFL-DT 28.1 CBS HIGH SPRINGS FL 257° 13.4 28
* yellow - uhf WUFT-DT 36.1 PBS GAINESVILLE FL 311° 2.6 36
* yellow - uhf WCJB-DT 20.1 ABC GAINESVILLE FL 198° 10.7 16
* green - uhf WOGX-DT 51.1 FOX OCALA FL 180° 22.7 31

The issue is that I do not want a rotor and another remote since the orientations are spread out. I want all the channels available at the same time.

I'd start with 2 four bay antennas, either the DB4 or 4221. Add them together with a splitter backwards and try it.

Multipath is a fancy name for ghosting. Too much ghosting and the DTV receiver won't decode the signal.

I'd start with 2 four bay antennas, either the DB4 or 4221. Add them together with a splitter backwards and try it.

Multipath is a fancy name for ghosting. Too much ghosting and the DTV receiver won't decode the signal.

Thanks for help. After multiple discussions I've decided to go with a DB4 to pick up the three transpoders at (180,198,257) and hope to get the 311 transponder on the backside since it is only 2.5 miles away. If not, then I can add a small directional antenna like the SR-15 to avoid multipath. The question is should I get the DB4 for $55 or the DB8 (basically 2 DB4) for $85.

Currently I have a 2-bow antenna installed by Directv. It picks up all my local ota channels except for my local nbc and fox. I can pick up these channels if I connect the antenna cable directly to the tv, but not through the receiver. What other type of outdoor antenna can you recommend to replace the 2-bow antenna. antennaweb suggests a medium directional antenna. My zip is 76542. Any suggestions. Looking for antenna that is not to large.

Hi
I hope you guys can help me. This is what I got from antennaweb:
* yellow - uhf WGFL-DT 28.1 CBS HIGH SPRINGS FL 257° 13.4 28
* yellow - uhf WUFT-DT 36.1 PBS GAINESVILLE FL 311° 2.6 36
* yellow - uhf WCJB-DT 20.1 ABC GAINESVILLE FL 198° 10.7 16
* green - uhf WOGX-DT 51.1 FOX OCALA FL 180° 22.7 31
Note the four orientations (180,199,257,311) and the distance, furtherst being 22.7 miles. I am only interested for these digital signals for my samsung SIR-T451 HDTV tuner.

The issue is that I do not want a rotor and another remote since the orientations are spread out. I want all the channels available at the same time. The signal is going to 1 TV. I got two recomendations:
1) Get a DB8 (multidirectional with 100° beam width) antenna and aim 1 array (ie a DB4 antena) at 190° (to get 180° and 198° transmitters) and the other array at 285° (to get 257° and 311°). I am afraid of ghosting and multipath (what is multipath?). Basically two multi-directional antennas in different directiond.
2) Get a DB4, basically one array of DB8, (multidirectional with 90° beam width) and aim it at 210° to get (257°,198° and 180° - all within a 80° beam width) and hope to get 311° from behind (but the back of 210° is 30°) since it is 2.5 miles away. If I cannot receive it then add a small directional antenna to avoid ghosting.
I would try a single DB4 or the Channel Master 4221 4 Bay first before getting into the complexity of two antennas. You are pretty close to the broadcast towers, so you may well be able to get them all without a rotator.

The flat panel bowtie design is able to pick up stations over a wide range in azimuth. I have a CM 4221 with a CM 7777 pre-amp in my attic aimed just south of the Baltimore stations at around 70 degrees in azimuth. I get stations at the following azimuths and ranges using a Samsung SIR-T451 tuner:
47 deg, 16 miles - 1 station
61 deg, 43 miles - 6 stations (Baltimore)
112 to 116 deg, 16 miles, 8 stations (Washington DC)
190 deg, 29 miles, 1 station (subject to dropouts but it is not a very high power station)
307 deg, 46 miles, 1 station on digital VHF 12
321 deg, 54 miles, 1 station

Go with the single 4 Bay bowtie antenna first. Although I would suggest you get the less expensive CM 4221 over the DB4, but if you have ordered the DB4, go for it.

Have you ever heard of an antenna with rotor "Mitzu CRA-5000"? Saw one of these on ebay and reviews seems ok.

thought your issue looked familiar.

Nurse, whispering: "Wake up... wake up sir... c'mon, time to wake up..."

"UUuuuuuhhhhh... where am I?"

"You're in the hospital. You've had a nasty accident."

"What the hell is that thing?"

"That's our new Mitzu CRA-5000 VHF/UHF Physiotherapeutic Back-Cracker that you'll be strapped onto for the next several years."

"UUuuuuuhhhhh..."

The Mitzu CRA-5000 VHF/UHF is in the same league as the other antenna beauties at ebay.

There's a sucker born every minute!

all funniness aside. If you were shopping around and an antenna with rotor caught your eye, why would you not consider a proven antenna system with rotor. Just a little more money and a maybe more challenging to install.

But at the same time, the Mitzu CRA-5000 can be an interesting concept with potential.

We are all curious how it works. try one and let us know.

Maybe borrow one from a friend.

Im not able to pick up some of my local channels now that I installed my ANT out side.
It worked for all channels indoors but was hit or miss with pict. freeze at night only.
I used diplexers so I didn't have to run more coax. Does it degrade the signal when combining both on same coax? I have DTV and am using a RS amplified HD ant Model 15-2186. Maybe its me but DTV and HD local channels that I do get don'tlook as good.
Can anyone help me? Or shoul I have spent my $50.00 on a better one. :confused: :(
zip 23701

Im not able to pick up some of my local channels now that I installed my ANT out side.
It worked for all channels indoors but was hit or miss with pict. freeze at night only.
I used diplexers so I didn't have to run more coax. Does it degrade the signal when combining both on same coax? I have DTV and am using a RS amplified HD ant Model 15-2186. Maybe its me but DTV and HD local channels that I do get don'tlook as good.
Can anyone help me? Or should I have spent my $50.00 on a better one. :confused: :(
zip 23701
The R-S 15-2186 is an amplified antenna, which requires 9 VDC from it's Power Inserter
(did you locate it BETWEEN the antenna and Diplexer).

SAT Receiver provides much higher voltage levels and signaling to the attached dish via SAT coax cables.
You have to be very careful to make sure that the right voltage goes only to each unit.
SAT RF Splitters have DC PASS on one or both ports, whereas conventional RF Splitters block DC.

And MPEG-4 HD Receivers are more difficult to share the same coax...suggest you research in D* forum.

I would try a single DB4 or the Channel Master 4221 4 Bay first before getting into the complexity of two antennas. You are pretty close to the broadcast towers, so you may well be able to get them all without a rotator.

The flat panel bowtie design is able to pick up stations over a wide range in azimuth. I have a CM 4221 with a CM 7777 pre-amp in my attic aimed just south of the Baltimore stations at around 70 degrees in azimuth. I get stations at the following azimuths and ranges using a Samsung SIR-T451 tuner:
47 deg, 16 miles - 1 station
61 deg, 43 miles - 6 stations (Baltimore)
112 to 116 deg, 16 miles, 8 stations (Washington DC)
190 deg, 29 miles, 1 station (subject to dropouts but it is not a very high power station)
307 deg, 46 miles, 1 station on digital VHF 12
321 deg, 54 miles, 1 station

Go with the single 4 Bay bowtie antenna first. Although I would suggest you get the less expensive CM 4221 over the DB4, but if you have ordered the DB4, go for it.

Thanks, I think I'll go with the DB4 because in the specifications I saw on a site (solidsignal.com) it says that the DB4 has a 90° beam width.

Thanks, I think I'll go with the DB4 because in the specifications I saw on a site (solidsignal.com) it says that the DB4 has a 90° beam width.
I don't see any beamwidth specs on www.antennasdirect.com---solidsignal info is an obvious typo...
BTW: Antennas Direct uses dBi (which is 2.15 dB inflated from usual dBd, re to dipole)
and appears to be the MAX gain for the BEST channel, rather than average gain used by C-M and W-G.

Here you can compare CM-4221 and DB-4's beamwidth.
They are both about 60 to 50 degrees, decreasing with frequency.
(Beamwidth is total azimuthal angle from -3 dB on either side of peak gain):
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

solid signal is really pushing the antennas direct antennas lately..anything to get a sale and meet sales quota it appears...even through their technical staff suggestions.

you can buy 2 cm4221's for the price of the db4. The cm4221's perform better too.

He should try the Mitzu CRA-5000 VHF/UHF :)

Hello all, newbie here with a question(s).

Brief history:

At our home we have a RS outdoor antenna (about 1 yr old) model # VU-75 XR ( I think that's the one) set on the roof. The signal is split for three different tvs using the cabling installed by Dish when we had it, so I don't know the specific type of cable it is (rf? coaxial?).

The cable leading to my tv, Sammy LN4095D, is roughly about 50 ft. When I purchased the tv, early Dec., I was able to pull in just about everychannel available in my area. I had problems with signal breakup on digital channels so I went back to RS and purchased the High Gain Signal Amplifier model # 15-2507. All the channels looked great, even the SD channels. One problem though, it deteriorated the feed to the other two tvs.

So I was forced to take down the amp. (parent's house, parents rules unfortunately), but now have lost most of my channels. The signal is worse on my tv than before, and I have actually lost some channels. I checked the signal strength on the digital channels I was able to get back and they are definitely weaker.

Did the amp. screw up my tv? cabling? ant.?

My dad seems to think that because we disconnected the cables from the splitter the connections have been compromised. Something about first time connections being stronger than a connection that has been disconnected/reconnected. He is definitely not the most tech savvy person I know so I have a hard time believing him. Unfortunately, I don't know much about this particular area either so I am at a loss as to what to do. Any help would be greatly appreciated, even if you just point to another thread.

Sorry for the long post but I didn't want to leave any small detail out. Zip code is 78521 in case that helps at all.

Once again thanks for helping out a newb.

-Victor

Hello all, newbie here with a question(s).

Brief history:

At our home we have a RS outdoor antenna (about 1 yr old) model # VU-75 XR ( I think that's the one) set on the roof. The signal is split for three different tvs using the cabling installed by Dish when we had it, so I don't know the specific type of cable it is (rf? coaxial?).

The cable leading to my tv, Sammy LN4095D, is roughly about 50 ft. When I purchased the tv, early Dec., I was able to pull in just about everychannel available in my area. I had problems with signal breakup on digital channels so I went back to RS and purchased the High Gain Signal Amplifier model # 15-2507. All the channels looked great, even the SD channels. One problem though, it deteriorated the feed to the other two tvs.

So I was forced to take down the amp. (parent's house, parents rules unfortunately), but now have lost most of my channels. The signal is worse on my tv than before, and I have actually lost some channels. I checked the signal strength on the digital channels I was able to get back and they are definitely weaker.

Did the amp. screw up my tv? cabling? ant.?

My dad seems to think that because we disconnected the cables from the splitter the connections have been compromised. Something about first time connections being stronger than a connection that has been disconnected/reconnected. He is definitely not the most tech savvy person I know so I have a hard time believing him. Unfortunately, I don't know much about this particular area either so I am at a loss as to what to do. Any help would be greatly appreciated, even if you just point to another thread.

Sorry for the long post but I didn't want to leave any small detail out. Zip code is 78521 in case that helps at all.

Once again thanks for helping out a newb.

-Victor
I punched your zipcode into www.fccinfo.com and found quite a few nearby broadcast towers.
You'll need to provide (or DIY) a more accurate position (e.g. nearby cross-streets) to determine exactly how far away.

High-gain Preamps are not intended to be used near broadcast towers due to internal distortion (overload) problems.
Depending on where the intermodulation (IM) products fall, certain channels will suffer from interference....and others may not....

If you are within "about" 10-15 miles, you'll need to insert some attenuation between the antenna and the Preamp to suppress IM well below the level of the desired signal (each 1 dB of attenuation results in 3 dB of IM reduction).

Radio Shack has a variable RF attenuator you can use (indoors only) until you figure out how big a fixed attenuator to use....or simply start with one and then two 3 dB fixed attenuators. [PS: You can also try an RF Splitter, which has 3-4 dB of loss.]

Alternatively, the low-gain Winegard HDP-269 Preamp has a much, much higher resistance to overload and may not need any attenuation if you are at least 5-10 miles from the nearest broadcast tower:
http://www.summitsource.com/product_info.php?ref=1&products_id=5577
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANWHDP269

If you are within about 3-5 miles, using a Preamp may be too difficult....esp since signals leak in via cables and connectors...

The preamp situation discussed is valid advise.

Low noise preamplifiers are designed to improve the signal to noise ratio of your system. This means increasing signal levels, but with minimal noise contribution (higher signal to noise ratio).

The radio shack preamps are in the 5-6 db noise range and to honest 30 db gain is a bit much for most applications.

High noise preamplifers also increase signal levels, but they also increase noise, which can degrade picture quality. not a desireable combination.

The compromise would be to beef up the antenna gain some instead of adding amplification then toning the signal down. adding amplification so close to the towers puts your system at risk of overload and poor overall results.

Sometimes it is better to beef up the antenna gain some instead of adding amplification then toning the signal down.

I would replace the radio shack antenna with a higher performing antenna like a winegard hd7082p and get buy without amplification.

If you split the signal several times and you find that the higher frequencies/channels are not to your liking and need aboost, add the winegard hdp 269 preamp, amplify uhf, and pass the vhf signal. You really can not go with a uhf only preamp like the winegard ap4700 which passes vhf because the gain is too high.

Here's a more complete list of Preamp Specs I've been collecting for awhile.
If anyone sees any typos or omissions, feel free to chime in....

Note that I attempted to correlate a Lab Test published in IEEE to Preamps that matched known
Preamp Gain specs-- feel free to offer up any alternative correlations....

Here's a more complete list of Preamp Specs I've been collecting for awhile.
If anyone sees any typos or omissions, feel free to chime in....

I can't download the list. I instead get, "Internet Explorer was not able to open thin internet site. The requested site was either unavailable or cannot be found. Please try again later."

Thanks to both holl_ands and Rick0725. I will be looking into your suggestions, hopefully by next weekend, and hopefully I'll be back to enjoying all my programs again.

Thanks for the advice. :)

I have two hr10-250's and I want to receive digital channels from Memphis which is 77 miles from me. Directv gives me Paduca,KY locals, non hdtv. I just ordered a 5x8 powered multiswitch, the Eagle Aspen S-4180-GX+, an Antennas Direct 91XG, and a Channel Master CM 7775. I have seven lines running from the multiswitch with lenghts going from 50 to 100ft. This will be roof mounted on a pole about 6 feet above the roof (single story) centerline. I plan on using the multiswitch to merge the antenna and sat signals and using a diplexer at the two hdtv receivers. By my calculations I'm probably looking at a -3db loss across all lines.

Does that sound right? Does this configuration sound like it should work?

I can't download the list. I instead get, "Internet Explorer was not able to open thin internet site. The requested site was either unavailable or cannot be found. Please try again later."
Did you eventually get it to work???

I posted spreadsheets containing compendiums of ANTENNA SPECS, PREAMP SPECS and CABLE SPECS
into the "HOW TO RUN RADIO MOBILE IN S.D & L.A." thread:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/5427.html#POST27664

Do anyone know if the the TREK indoor antenna with amplifier

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007MXZB2/ref=dp_cp_ob_title_0/103-2597040-9650212

is better then this one

http://www.antonline.com/p_Terk--HDTVI--Terk-HDTV-Antenna-_220325.htm

I have Rabbit Ear Antenna(Loop) with amplifier which is distorting picture and dropping signal in every 1 minute for few seconds and thinking that these kind of antenna may be better based on what I read from HDTV primer site with lot of info on antenna.

Also how does this one compares to the above models

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Philips-Indoor-HDTV-Antenna-PHDTV1/sem/rpsm/oid/158311/catOid/-15607/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

Thanks

Did you eventually get it to work???

I posted spreadsheets containing compendiums of ANTENNA SPECS, PREAMP SPECS and CABLE SPECS
into the "HOW TO RUN RADIO MOBILE IN S.D & L.A." thread:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/5427.html#POST27664

While I still can't get the linked page from post #739 to work, I was able to open the "Forsandiego" link to the same table.

We are still a long way from being able to determine preamp sufficiency from published specs. Channel Master seems to use the exact same values for its 46dB cross modulation threshold that it used to use for its 5% sync compression threshold. Are they coincidentally the same, or did someone producing sales literature make that labeling change on his own?

These input levels are for peak analog carrier levels of typically 2, 4, or 8 inputs at the same voltage level, but we are dealing with wide digital signals that may have about ten times the power of an NTSC signal with a comparable peak voltage strength.

A few years ago, someone here said that if you draw on a power supply to the point where 5% sync compression occurs, it affects strong and weak NTSC signals to the same degree, but when we are creating intermodulation byproducts that land in-band on the weak signals, it is the weak signals that will get degraded beyond recovery. I think we are going to have to learn a lot more about various intermodulation byproducts to be able to assess the extent to which they beat up the weaker signals before we can reliably ascertain the efficacy of any preamplifier in a given system relying on measured input signal levels and published preamplifier intermodulation and distortion specs.

Has anyone out there done a direct comparision of the Antennas Direct XG91 yagi vs. the Channel Master 4248 yagi in the field in a tough spot, with trees, weak signal area?? I know that published numbers on gain don't exactly equate to what you often get installed.

the cm4228 and 91xg are the heavy hitters. the 91 xg is favored to tame multipath. they both have 2 db more gain. computer simulations may be more accurate then user comments in general since there are may variables out there.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

hi would like help on choosing the right antenna and rg6 cable. the antenna will be used indoors. my zipcode is 02171. any other stuff you need to know, just ask.

i was told by 1 member to get the radio shack u-75r. is that the best choice?

then i need to get an rg6 cable and i don't know how to choose one. double or quad shielded? CSS or copper center? how long? could i just get one from monoprice.com or is Belden the better choice for a few dollars more? if Belden, which one do i get from Here (http://www.hometech.com/techwire/coax.html)

Do anyone know if the the TREK indoor antenna with amplifier

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007MXZB2/ref=dp_cp_ob_title_0/103-2597040-9650212

is better then this one

http://www.antonline.com/p_Terk--HDTVI--Terk-HDTV-Antenna-_220325.htm

I have Rabbit Ear Antenna(Loop) with amplifier which is distorting picture and dropping signal in every 1 minute for few seconds and thinking that these kind of antenna may be better based on what I read from HDTV primer site with lot of info on antenna.

Also how does this one compares to the above models

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Philips-Indoor-HDTV-Antenna-PHDTV1/sem/rpsm/oid/158311/catOid/-15607/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

Thanks
You'll probably find more people claiming success with the Silver Sensor
(Philips/Zenith/Gemini are all the same) vs the Terk copy-cat....

On the other hand, the Terk has rabbit ears for VHF....

The difference between HDTVa and HDTVi models is addition of Preamp in "a" model.
If you are close (say within 5-10 miles) to a nearby broadcast tower,
a Preamp probably won't help and can cause overload problems.

At about 20 miles and beyond (YMMV), a Preamp usually helps (YMMV),
but you may also need a "real" antenna....preferably in the attic or outdoors....

FYI: The Philips PHDTV3 is an amplified version of the Silver Sensor,
which is enclosed to protect the elements:
http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PHDTV3-Indoor-Powered-Antenna/dp/B000B58VNM/sr=8-2/qid=1170871294/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-9197907-8194541?ie=UTF8&s=electronics

If your location is suitable for an amplified antenna, you also might want
to consider the Radio Shack 15-2187 "circular disc" antenna:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2348191&cp=&sr=1&origkw=outdoor+tv+antenna&kw=outdoor+tv+antenna&parentPage=search

Haven't seen very many reports re this antenna (similar to W-G SS-2000???)...
Here is a post from "jhb50" who is amazingly 95 miles away from the L.A. towers:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9458206#post9458206

Anyone else using the R-S "disc"????

I have two hr10-250's and I want to receive digital channels from Memphis which is 77 miles from me. Directv gives me Paduca,KY locals, non hdtv. I just ordered a 5x8 powered multiswitch, the Eagle Aspen S-4180-GX+, an Antennas Direct 91XG, and a Channel Master CM 7775. I have seven lines running from the multiswitch with lenghts going from 50 to 100ft. This will be roof mounted on a pole about 6 feet above the roof (single story) centerline. I plan on using the multiswitch to merge the antenna and sat signals and using a diplexer at the two hdtv receivers. By my calculations I'm probably looking at a -3db loss across all lines.

Does that sound right? Does this configuration sound like it should work?
The overall TV sensitivity (i.e. Noise Figure) is primarily determined by CM-7775 Preamp.
The HDTV's sensitivity (est. 7-13 dB), cable (and other) losses also reduce overall sensitivity,
but their contribution is REDUCED by amount of GAIN in CM-7775 Preamp....
so it's only another couple dB of sensitivity loss.

The Eagle Aspen S-4180-GX+ Multiswitch specs show insertion loss of 5 dB for
the TV input, so it apparently includes a low-gain (est. 7+ dB) Preamp to overcome
the approx. 12+ dB loss in the 8-way splitter/diplexer network.
http://www.eagleaspen.com/admin/product/fujian/file_243.pdf

Because there is a Preamp in the Multiswitch, it is possible that the CM-7775 could
overload it's input (from local stations), causing a loss of sensitivity on some channels.
You might want to try inserting a R-S Variable RF Attenuator on the Eagle's
TV input and "tweak" for best reception.

You didn't give your zipcode (and preferably cross streets) so that we could
determine if you had any "nearby" transmitters....if so, a low gain/high overload
W-G Preamp may be a better choice...

True TV/SAT DIPLEXERS have insertion loss under a 1 dB (e.g. RCA VHD920).

Be careful wrt "SAT/TV SPLITTERS" which are just standard RF Splitters with extended
2 GHz bandwidth....and 4 dB insertion loss, such as R-S 16-2568, Philips ZDS5010, et. al.

The overall TV sensitivity (i.e. Noise Figure) is primarily determined by CM-7775 Preamp.
The HDTV's sensitivity (est. 7-13 dB), cable (and other) losses also reduce overall sensitivity,
but their contribution is REDUCED by amount of GAIN in CM-7775 Preamp....
so it's only another couple dB of sensitivity loss.

The Eagle Aspen S-4180-GX+ Multiswitch specs show insertion loss of 5 dB for
the TV input, so it apparently includes a low-gain (est. 7+ dB) Preamp to overcome
the approx. 12+ dB loss in the 8-way splitter/diplexer network.


Because there is a Preamp in the Multiswitch, it is possible that the CM-7775 could
overload it's input (from local stations), causing a loss of sensitivity on some channels.
You might want to try inserting a R-S Variable RF Attenuator on the Eagle's
TV input and "tweak" for best reception.

You didn't give your zipcode (and preferably cross streets) so that we could
determine if you had any "nearby" transmitters....if so, a low gain/high overload
W-G Preamp may be a better choice...

True TV/SAT DIPLEXERS have insertion loss under a 1 dB (e.g. RCA VHD920).

Be careful wrt "SAT/TV SPLITTERS" which are just standard RF Splitters with extended
2 GHz bandwidth....and 4 dB insertion loss, such as R-S 16-2568, Philips ZDS5010, et. al.

Thanks for the info thus far. So you think I may not need the pre-amp? I live 77 miles from those towers and the next nearest towers are about 180 degrees out from those and 60 miles away.

My zip is 38079. cross street is sunkist beach and clubhouse lane

looking at your antennaweb profile and your setup.

60-70 miles will be a reception challenge for you.

The 91 xg and cm7775 (you did not mention a rotor which I think you will need) will be a great start and the cm7775 is a great preamp choice and necessary in your setup.

you are going to need all the signal strength you can muster. I would strongly think about a separate distribution system for off air to your tuners from the antenna. avoiding all the signal losses associated with diplexing and the complications I foresee with using the amplified multiplexer you selected.

If you lived under move favorable reception conditions I would say diplexing would be fine. But NOT in your case.

The system will need to be simple, avoiding any potential for issues that would contribute to signal loss, interference, or other complications. when you install...run a line direct from the antenna, preamp, to the tuner and see if you even get a signal. Then add the other stuff and see what happens.

The multiplexer (amplified) and diplexing definately are going to make things interesting there!

looking at your antennaweb profile and your setup.

60-70 miles will be a reception challenge for you.

The 91 xg and cm7775 (you did not mention a rotor which I think you will need) will be a great start and the cm7775 is a great preamp choice and necessary in your setup.

you are going to need all the signal strength you can muster. I would strongly think about a separate distribution system for off air to your tuners from the antenna. avoiding all the signal losses associated with diplexing and the complications I foresee with using the multiplexor you selected.

If you lived under move favorable reception conditions I would say diplexing would be fine. But NOT in your case. The system will need to be simple, avoiding any potential for issues that would contribute to signal loss, interference, or other complications.

Should I consider a better multiplexer?

If I bypass the multiplexer could I have better results with a diplexor on both ends of the line just going to one tv?

I'm trying, if at all possible, to avoid having to run new lines.

10 years ago this house had an antenna and rotor and picked up the analog stations from Memphis. But that got blown away in a storm and I'm just now putting an antenna back for digitals.

The system will need to be simple, avoiding any potential for issues that would contribute to signal loss, interference, or other complications.

when you install and aim...run a line direct from the antenna, preamp, to the tuner and see if you even get a digital signal. Then add the other stuff and see what happens.

If the results are not satisfactory after adding the other electronics, a separate off air distribution system may be your only alternative.

Should I consider a better multiplexer?

If I bypass the multiplexer could I have better results with a diplexor on both ends of the line just going to one tv?

I'm trying, if at all possible, to avoid having to run new lines.

10 years ago this house had an antenna and rotor and picked up the analog stations from Memphis. But that got blown away in a storm and I'm just now putting an antenna back for digitals.DirecTV will be moving to all Ka band MPEG4 coded signals for HD before very long. Only the HR20 receiver and HR20 DVR or models not yet available will be able to get them with a 5LNB dish. The Zinwell WB68 is the only 8 output multiswitch available right now that will work with those signals. The Ka/Ku band for satellite signals covers 250-2150MHz so diplexing will no longer work. You will need to have a direct line from the antenna for OTA. At least some local HD will be available via the dish in the changeover process. If you are in the Memphis DMA, channels 5, 13 and 24 are available now on the Ka band.

Thanks for the info thus far. So you think I may not need the pre-amp? I live 77 miles from those towers and the next nearest towers are about 180 degrees out from those and 60 miles away.

My zip is 38079. cross street is sunkist beach and clubhouse lane
I entered your zip into www.fccinfo.com to see if there were any nearby towers,
because antennaweb.org overlooks many so-called "Low Power" stations.

Closest tower is about 35 miles, so a Preamp is suitable.....and highly recommended....
My concern is wrt whether or not the CM7775 has TOO much gain and may or may not
need to be attenuated a bit before it goes through the Distribution Preamp in the Eagle.
Of course, this is going to depend on how well the antenna pattern suppresses all of those "nearby" towers.

In Sep2005 I posted some spread sheets showing how to calculate various signal levels
with and without a Preamp, including a cascaded Preamp/Distro Amp configuration:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6206737&highlight=rosa#post6206737
Yes, it's a bit of work, but can be simplified if you use the simple LOS path loss calculator
and add a swag for additional diffraction loss.

The original thread referencing the (FREE!!!) RADIO MOBILE Propagation Prediction Program
have been archived. Here is a link to the partially reconstructed thread:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/5427.html?1170794076 :)

...run a line direct from the antenna, preamp, to the tuner and see if you even get a digital signal. Then add the other stuff and see what happens.

If the results are not satisfactory after adding the other electronics, a separate off air distribution system may be your only alternative.

I agree 100 percent. I'd probably run two dedicated lines for OTA even while you are doing it.

Plus, as Greywolf mentioned, depending on your Sat service diplexing may not work for long anyway.

I agree 100 percent. I'd probably run two dedicated lines for OTA even while you are doing it.

Plus, as Greywolf mentioned, depending on your Sat service diplexing may not work for long anyway.


I agree with cpcat and Greywolf. By running 2 dedicated RG-6Q line for OTA you could have 2 antenna and have 2 different pre-amp then combine inside or use a A/B switch. As newer Sat use some of the OTA band and beside the cost of running a dedicated coax for OTA would be cheaper and it give one less reason for the Sat co to bitch because it the OTA is hook up to the diplexer and causing the problem. Yes I understand it makes it easier to hook up but must remember the voltage is different and can harm or destroy the Sat receiver, Pre-amp and the TV.

It would be nice to have a thread somewhere to discuss pre-wiring a new house or in remodeling such as talk about how many coax run from the attic to distribution center and then from there to room outlet I would recommend adding CAT5 phone/Data line and now the Fiber line will be near so nice to pre-install them or use of conduit to add line later. I know there is forum on room construction but just for theater room not really about wiring the whole house.

I got the equipment today and just did a ground level check. I couldn't pick up a Memphis local going direct to the receiver, but I had already figured as much considering I know I need to be on the roof to clear the treeline that is a few hundred yards away from me. I did pick up a digital from MO, KBSI in Cape Girardeau. It is only 9 KM closer than the Memphis channels. So hopefully Memphis won't be a problem once I get the antenna mounted 30' in the air. Most likely I'll bypass the multiswitch and run a new line. Sigh...

If I do manage to get the Memphis locals, how do I get the correct guide data, for the HR10-250, considering it is out of my local market? Can the receiver have two zip codes to draw OTA data from?

If I do manage to get the Memphis locals, how do I get the correct guide data, for the HR10-250, considering it is out of my local market? Can the receiver have two zip codes to draw OTA data from?


You won't regret the dedicated line. Like I said, run two while you're at it.

Sorry to tell you this, but the HR10-250 doesn't have the best rep for an OTA receiver. I've not used it myself.

For long distance, the best D* receivers will be the older models aka HTL-HD, LST3100a, Sony Sat300. The H10 is also decent. The H20 is better than the H10 but not quite as sensitive as the HTL-HD/LST3100a/Sat 300. I don't know much about the OTA performance on the new HR20.

The guide data comes from the satellite. You can enter more than one zip code and depending on just how you do it you can receive guide info from multiple markets.

I know this is a stupid question but, where do you enter the multiple zip codes at? I can't find it.

You have to go into intial setup for my HTL-HD and H10. The H20 has a separate menu for it. Like I said, I don't have the HR10-250 so if you still can't find it maybe try the DVR forum/owner's thread for that model.

Rerun guided setup.

From the manual

Setup Local Network Areas. (Only appears if you selected “Satellite and off-air antenna”
as your program source.) Your local network areas are used to acquire program
information for your off-air antenna channels. If you completed Guided Setup, your
primary network area has already been set, based on the ZIP code you entered. Setting the
secondary network area is optional. You should do so if you live very near another major
TV market city which broadcasts off-air channels your antenna can receive.

Menu/Messages and Settings/Settings/Channels/Off-Air Channels/Setup Local Network Areas/

If someone inadvertently adds an off-air channel, is there any way to remove them from the guide one by one, rather than doing a master reset? I have one customer who has some non-existent channels entered into his guide (like 51.11) because of ham-handed use of a buttonless, Crestron remote, and I have another who entered a few zip codes from other areas of the country where he had previously lived, but if I do a master reset, I'm concerned that it will wipe out his DVR recording schedule.

If someone inadvertently adds an off-air channel, is there any way to remove them from the guide one by one, Menu/Messages and Settings/Settings/Channels/Off-Air Channels/Channel List

hi would like help on choosing the right antenna and rg6 cable. the antenna will be used indoors. my zipcode is 02171. any other stuff you need to know, just ask.

i was told by 1 member to get the radio shack u-75r. is that the best choice?

then i need to get an rg6 cable and i don't know how to choose one. double or quad shielded? CSS or copper center? how long? could i just get one from monoprice.com or is Belden the better choice for a few dollars more? if Belden, which one do i get from Here (http://www.hometech.com/techwire/coax.html)

anyone? i want to watch in the comfort of my own home instead of driving 38 min to a friends house.

anyone? i want to watch in the comfort of my own home instead of driving 38 min to a friends house.

Since I only had your zip code to go by, I would think a antennadirect db4 would do the job. All the digital channels in your area are uhf so a all uhf antenna will do nicely. You said indoors, are you thinking attic? Do you have any hills or structures blocking the boston direction?

Steve

Since I only had your zip code to go by, I would think a antennadirect db4 would do the job. All the digital channels in your area are uhf so a all uhf antenna will do nicely. You said indoors, are you thinking attic? Do you have any hills or structures blocking the boston direction?

Steve

any additional info can i give u that would be more help? it will be used in my bedroom. i don't think there are any hills, but possibly some structures.

my previous antenna was the ZHDTV1 (silver sensor). it didn't work that well. if i put it in one direction, i couldn't get all the channels without signal loss. so whenever i wanted to watch a specific channel, i would have to keep moving it around until i found the sweet spot. even then the signal would drop for a few seconds.

Ok finally getting around to post about this antenna. Bought it from Solid Signal. They have a 30 day return policy. My current antenna was a Zenith Gemini. I live in San Antonio, Tx and I am about 26 miles from the TV towers. I could not receive channels 9-1, 9-2, 9-3 and 9-4, PBS channels. I e-mailed PBS and found out they were VHF. I also found out that my antenna is for UHF. I also was not picking up channels 16-1, 16-2, 16-3, 16-4 and 16-5, the church channels. After I had done a lot of internet research I decided to give the HDX1000 made by Antenna Craft a try. The first time I mounted it (roof) I could only get 6 channels. I was very disappointed and was getting ready to return it. This was on a Friday evening. I figured I would e-mail Solid Signal to see if they had any suggestions. They e-mailed me back Monday. They suggested that I remove all splitters. So Monday evening after work I crawled back on the roof to give it another try, I had already removed it. This time it pulled in every available DT channel in my area, signal stregth is 76 to 82! I am now a happy camper. By the way you can have splitters but they have to be after the power supply. I paid $69.00 for this antenna. It is very light and easy to mount. The antenna also picks up analog channels fairly well. Happy with it so far.
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looks similar to this radio shack

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2348191&cp=&pg=3&sr=1&origkw=antenna&kw=antenna&parentPage=search

http://www.antennacraft.net/HDX1000.htm

looks similar to this radio shack

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2348191&cp=&pg=3&sr=1&origkw=antenna&kw=antenna&parentPage=search

http://www.antennacraft.net/HDX1000.htm


Yes the Radio Shack is the same as antennacraft as most of the outside antenna is built by antennacraft and some are built by Winegard but they are made to Radio Shack specs so it may look the same sometime with cheaper materials. or just little different designs or colors.

any additional info can i give u that would be more help? it will be used in my bedroom. i don't think there are any hills, but possibly some structures.

my previous antenna was the ZHDTV1 (silver sensor). it didn't work that well. if i put it in one direction, i couldn't get all the channels without signal loss. so whenever i wanted to watch a specific channel, i would have to keep moving it around until i found the sweet spot. even then the signal would drop for a few seconds.
Your best bet is a 4 bay bow-tie like the DB-4 or the Channelmaster CM-3021 (aka CM-4221) this will give you the most signal without having a too narrow horizontal beamwidth. The Channelmaster is an outdoor antenna but maybe you can find a place to put it where it won't look too bad. You can get the Channelmaster from starkelectronic.com in Worcester MA for $26 + $10 shipping which makes it a better buy than the DB-4:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/uhf.htm
If that doesn't work well you could try adding a good pre-amp from Channelmaster or Winegard.

Your best bet is a 4 bay bow-tie like the DB-4 or the Channelmaster CM-3021 (aka CM-4221) this will give you the most signal without having a too narrow horizontal beamwidth. The Channelmaster is an outdoor antenna but maybe you can find a place to put it where it won't look too bad. You can get the Channelmaster from starkelectronic.com in Worcester MA for $26 + $10 shipping which makes it a better buy than the DB-4:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/uhf.htm
If that doesn't work well you could try adding a good pre-amp from Channelmaster or Winegard.

thanks for the help. worcester is an hour away so i'll drive down and get the channel master. is there anything else i would need? cables, mount, etc?