Antennas, rotators, boosters/preamps... for wide-band VHF/UHF [Text View] - Page 4

calvinb

02-19-07, 11:44 AM

Guys I need some help with my OTA setup (I will probably post in my local also). I recently split my OTA feed in order to get OTA on another HDTV in another room. In main room #1 I am feeding an HR10-250 and in room #2 I am feeding an HR-20. ( I do realize these both have dual internal tuners, therefore the signal is split again internally, correct?) Feed is coming from a CM 4221 in the attic and also going thru the CM Titan 7777 pre-amp. I am splitting the cable on the output side of the 7777 in order to feed both rooms. On windy days / marginal weather days, I am getting dropouts on my local CBS station (WSPA-DT) and also my local Fox (WHNS-DT). This was quite annoying yesterday during the race and the golf tournament (dropouts on both stations!). A month ago I never had problems. So my questions are; how do I resolve? Bigger antenna, less splitting? With March madness coming up I am concerned about my local HD feed (no Mpeg4 in Greenville yet). I am located in zip 29650 in Upstate SC, about 20 miles from WSPA-DT.

Rick0725

02-19-07, 12:10 PM

issue on windy days.

you are noticing the drop outs more now...you always had them. splitting the signal lowered the signal just enough to make dropouts more pronounced.

2 things to address...maybe 3

-get the antenna outside..multipath from the outside and inside environment

-replace the antenna with different style antenna . bowties tame multipath poorly. you will also need an antenna a few sizes bigger with more gain to increase the signal strength... so if the signal drops it would be high enough not to cause issues.

-the cm7777 is a tadd high gain for your setup with stations in yellow and distances from towers.

* yellow - vhf WNTV-DT 9.1 PBS GREENVILLE SC 292° 9.1 9
* yellow - uhf WYFF-DT 4.1 NBC GREENVILLE SC 312° 24.5 59
* yellow - uhf WSPA-DT 7.1 CBS SPARTANBURG SC 360° 18.5 53
* yellow - uhf WLOS-DT 13.1 ABC ASHEVILLE NC 328° 45.9 56
* yellow - uhf WHNS-DT 21.1 FOX ASHEVILLE NC 314° 30.8 57
* yellow - uhf WYCW-DT 62.1 CW ASHEVILLE NC 329° 27.6 45
* red - uhf WGGS-DT 16.1 TBN GREENVILLE SC 292° 9.1 35
* red - uhf WUNF-DT 33.1 PBS ASHEVILLE NC 328° 45.9 25

If I came across your situation would suggest to replace the cm4221 with a 43xg or similar which would tame the multipath issue better and is more drectional with high front back ratio....and a small 5 bay vhf to receive high band vhf.

your preamp has plenty of gain to supply your system...maybe too much.

fyi- received a couple of complaints for fox and dropouts yesterday.

jvandrew

02-19-07, 01:25 PM

Hey, I'm new to OTA HDTV. I've been doing some reading and have a couple questions.

1. My zip code is 08246 (it's a tiny, tiny zip, so I live right in the center of the zip). When I put this into antennaweb, it only gives me info about ABC/FOX/CW from Philadelphia, PA and NBC from Atlantic City. I am fine with NBC Atlantic City, but I am shooting for ABC/CBS/FOX from New York, NY. According to antennaweb, the transmitter for those NY stations is 54.1 miles from Toms River, NJ. I live 63 miles due South of Toms River, so I figure I'm about 127 miles from the NY transmitters. it seems like there is some success getting stations from this far, especially since there isn't a single area that is even above sea level between myself, Toms River, and NY. It is flat as can be. Can anyone recommend any antenna/amp setup where I might be able to get the stations? Maybe one of these parabolic antennas? I understand this would have to be a pretty serious setup if feasible.

2. I think I already know the answer to this question. If the antenna setup works, is there any way to diplex it into my cable line and view the channels on my Motorola 6200 digital cable box? I assume the answer to this is no and I have to get a separate ATSC tuner for OTA, and use the digital cable box for the cable channels. I of course do get local channels from Comcast on the 6200, but although we used to get some locals from NY and Philadelphia, Comcast has been taking away the NY stations (Comcast owns Philadelphia sports teams, and they ram them down our throats). Hence why I'm interested in an antenna solution.

Rick0725

02-19-07, 07:44 PM

You have a shot at philladelphia. nyc highly unlikely.

cm4228, cm7777 amp, and rotor.

calvinb

02-21-07, 09:01 AM

Rick0725

02-21-07, 10:00 AM

it is normally not suggested nor typical to combine a preamp with a distribution amp in a setup.

unless your runs are excessive. you loose about 1 db per 16-18 ft and you need to include the losses in the splitters.

just slitting 2 ways is really not much unless the signal coming from the antenna is marginal

it is best to ask for more details of your setup before we quess what the issue is.

zipcode
where is the antenna
describe your wiring hookup
length of runs
-antenna to distribution point
-length of each run
-do you diplex with satellite, etc.

calvinb

02-21-07, 11:13 AM

Rick0725

02-21-07, 11:28 AM

the cm4221 is typically a 20-35 mile antenna outdoors.

the cm7777 offers plenty of gain for your splits.

not what you want to hear but that is the deal.

holl_ands

02-21-07, 04:13 PM

Is it possible to combine a distribution amp (like a CM 3044) with a pre-amp (like a CM 7777)? Or is this a bad idea, ie, too much amplification? I am dealing with a split OTA line feeding two HDTV's. Thanks in advance for any advice.
Your zipcode has several stations that may be less than 15 miles away...depending on your location.
It would help to tell us how close you are to Greenville stations
(or identify some nearby cross streets...or post antennaweb.org results).

Normally the CM7777 would be poor-marginal for use 10-15 miles from nearby towers.
However attic losses and terrain blockages could reduce input signal levels to more acceptable levels.

In order to ascertain whether there is TOO much signal going into the CM7777, temporarily
insert an RF Splitter (3-4 dB loss) between the antenna's balun transformer and the CM7777.
If this improves your situation you could decide to leave it--or replace with a lower gain Winegard Preamp.

"Overdriving" causes loss of sensitivity for certain channels, depending on characteristics of
intermodulation interference. Inserting 3-4 dB of loss will REDUCE undesirable intermodulation
interference by a factor of THREE (9-12 dB), pushing the Preamp's sensitivity back towards
the thermal noise floor.

Strong signals on the output of the CM7777 can not only overdrive the distro amp,
but it can in turn overdrive your HDTV, even with some splitters.

=======================================
If the above test makes reception much worse, you are probably suffering from either too weak
a signal---or multipath problems---in which case you might want to consider trying different attic locations,
change to lower gain/higher overload Winegard Preamp and a possible antenna upgrade to the CM4228.

cpcat

02-21-07, 07:27 PM

Rick, thanks for the feedback. Some of my info is a few messages back on pg 26. I am in 29650. 4221 antenna in attic. About 60 ft' of RG6 to TV #1 (using HR10-250). OTA split is on output side of CM 7777 at TV #1. Then another 40 ft of RG6 to TV #2 and HR-20. Currently using a regular "HD" splitter (no such thing I know) to split the OTA feed. I do not diplex. I need the pre-amp to pull in several of the local channels (espec. WLOS-DT which is 45+ miles away and WHNS-DT is 30+ miles away). I am considering using a CM distrib amp to replace the regular old splitter. I really do not want to change antennas or put something on the roof. In theory, D* and MPEG 4 are in my immediate future and I can go back to not splitting my OTA. I will keep my 4221 though, as long as my HD TiVo works. Thanks again for the advice.

My brother in law brings in WLOS-DT as well as the others from Greer, SC with a Silver Sensor in his attic. He has around 50 ft. RG6 and no preamp to one TV.

Have you tried it without the preamp and just to one TV without the splitter?

You may find that you actually need less amplification, not more. I might also try it with the distribution amp alone placed right before the split.

avsforum2005

03-02-07, 11:46 AM

newbie questions

i pick up a radio shack indoor antenna with a remote. this antenna has 3 level amplified, the max is 19dB. i'm about 23 miles from the tower. since i set my antenna about waist high, i notice setting it to level 3 amplified help make the signal stronger. but i combine it with a signal Attenuator, which has a max of 20dB. so basically, i max out both the indoor antenna amplified at 19dB + the 20dB from the Attenuator.

is there a health concern or safety concern for combining the max of 19dB and 20dB?

thanks in advance

m_vanmeter

03-02-07, 02:12 PM

an amplifier "increases" signal.....an attenuator "decreases" signal.

If I read your post correctly you are nulling out any signal increase with the attenuator ????

avsforum2005

03-02-07, 04:54 PM

strange. the signal seemed a little more stable with the attenuator added. possible that i have interference because the antenna is so low to the ground. also, with some channels the signal meters are bouncing like crazy, from 0 to 100 strength. but others seemed more stable with the added attenuator.

i need to test more than.

but either way, does this cause any health or safety issues?

thanks

whines83

03-07-07, 12:22 PM

hey guys i have tried several antenna's and i finally found one that works up 70 miles away..

i am getting stations i didnt even know that existed..

this is the antenna i speak of its UHF only.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103088&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&parentPage=family

i get 25 stations free with 3 of these antenna's.

nybbler

03-07-07, 02:47 PM

Hey, I'm new to OTA HDTV. I've been doing some reading and have a couple questions.

1. I live 63 miles due South of Toms River, so I figure I'm about 127 miles from the NY transmitters. it seems like there is some success getting stations from this far, especially since there isn't a single area that is even above sea level between myself, Toms River, and NY. It is flat as can be.

Your problem here is the curvature of the earth. The distance to the horizon for WCBS at 395 meters is only about 42 miles. You'd have to have a really high tower (even higher than theirs) to get line-of-sight.

videobruce

04-12-07, 10:50 AM

Unless I missed it here, there was a discussion elsewhere about this.
Eagle Aspen came out with a new rotor design last Fall using a single cable;
http://eagleaspen.com/products/products_1.php?id=90

I contacted the company since my first concern was signal loss through the control box and the rotor itself. Eagle Aspens designs their products even though they aren't made here and specs the loss to be less than 2db for both devices with 1.5 db being the average. Thought I would use separate feeds (as before) since any 2 conductor wire would be fine for the rotor control (doesn't have to be coax). All would be need to be done is to solder that line to a short RG59 length with a F fitting on each end to connect to the rotor and the controller to eliminate the loss.

The tech I spoke to also mentioned that the same guy who designed the Channel Master 9537 remote controlled controller designed this controller and the Pioneer cable box remote code will work on this also (as it does for the 9537).
There is a limiting factor regarding current available for a preamp through the control box (using a single cable) which is another reason to use separate feeds.

I have used the Channel Master designed rotor system for years exclusively, but because of the constant back and forth 'tweaking' for correct position, it's impossible to keep both in 'sync' even with the solid state 9537 controller (which I hoped would help, but it didn't).
I plan on replacing it with this from Solid Signal;
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ROTR100

(BTW, I have seen this as high as $140 elsewhere.)

Also, the link for the Wade UHF parabolics is dead;

4' version: http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/uhfparabolic.pdf

There is also a 6', a 8' and a dual 8 footer, but at 70, 100 & 155 lbs, those might be a slight chalenge to erect.

videobruce

04-12-07, 10:58 AM

It's not a' natual' blonde.

videobruce

04-13-07, 12:08 PM

I did a little research, though I still can't verify dealer cost, but I believe it would be safe to say that the Kathrein UHF antenna that is listed above those Wade parabolics' should be taken off the list. Why?:

$767 plus shipping (and that is for a single channel).

The Wade antennas?
List price starts at $465 plus $140 shipping (not verified) for the 4 footer and $3630 plus $260 shipping for the dual 8 footer. The six footer is $1,000 MORE than the four footer. I am guessing dealer cost for the 4' model is around $300 plus shipping.

I don't think to many forum members will be getting many of these...................

cpcat

04-13-07, 07:13 PM

Not to mention that largest dual parabolic weighs in at 155 lbs.

videobruce

04-13-07, 07:27 PM

If you can afford the $3500, the weight of that array is of little concern.

carltonrice

04-14-07, 08:39 AM

videobruce

04-14-07, 09:43 AM

You are best off with a separate VHF high band & a separate UHF antenna. Combo antennas have always been a compromise.
Is your market reverting back to VHF (actual frequencies, not those drumed up misleading 7.1 when it is actually 38.1 channel numbers) after 2009?

cpcat

04-14-07, 09:50 AM

If you can afford the $3500, the weight of that array is of little concern.

I can afford it. Not that I'm rich mind you.

The weight is definitely a concern as is the windload and torque load.

A heavy-duty rotator mounted inside of at least a medium duty guyed tower would be mandatory. It's this part that's prohibitive for me.

videobruce

04-14-07, 10:14 AM

I was making a funny about the weight.

The difference between their smallest two models is 3x the weight (70 vs 25 lbs) and 3x the price ($1400 vs $460).
The gain difference is only 2 db.

I can't imagine why they even try to sell the 6 footer.

Cornhustler

04-14-07, 10:17 AM

Given that when stations switch over to their final destination frequencies in 2009 those frequencies probably be in the channel 7 through channel 51 range, why haven't there been more antennas manufactured specifically for the high VHF/low UHF frequencies? Is anyone making something for them?

Good question. You mean like the bottom antenna in the attached photo?

I've been waiting for CM, Winegard or Antennacraft to introduce something like this. I would think there would be a large market for something like this which will allow viewers to maintain reception seamlessly for stations going back to their high band vhf frequencies or for those remaining on uhf after Feb. 2009. Seems silly to put up a monster designed to receive low band when most areas won't have any stations using channels 2-6.

AntAltMike

04-14-07, 10:30 AM

...The difference between their smallest two models is 3x the weight (70 vs 25 lbs) and 3x the price ($1400 vs $460).
The gain difference is only 2 db.

I can't imagine why they even try to sell the 6 footer.
They aren't trying very hard to sell them. You won't see them advertised during the Super Bowl.

UHF analog TV broadcasters have to assure that their reception antenna develops a signal level of 0dBmV to qualify for "must carry" status, and digital stations must develop -12dBmV. Distant and low powered transmitters sometimes have trouble meeting that standard, so paying another thousand dollars for 2dB of gain is often a better value than increasing the tower heght and is a relatively small expenditure in light of the value of the market accessed.

cpcat

04-14-07, 11:19 AM

I could go for the added gain in my situation but my current installation is maxed out I'm afraid.

I tried raising my mast by only a few feet and just the other night I was clobbered for it. About 7-8 ft above roof line is about all it will take.

I'm probably averaging around 18dbi for wideband UHF.

nybbler

04-14-07, 04:33 PM

I can afford it. Not that I'm rich mind you.

The weight is definitely a concern as is the windload and torque load.

Satellite dishes can be had more cheaply and lighter. Put a bowtie instead of an LNB at the feed point (which might require some custom hardware) and you should have the equivalent of the old Channel Master parabolics, unless I'm missing some subtlety. I'm assuming mesh designed for 10Ghz should be effectively solid at 300-800 Mhz.

carltonrice

04-15-07, 01:56 PM

Good question. You mean like the bottom antenna in the attached photo?

Yep... Who makes this one and what model is it?

Cornhustler

04-15-07, 08:49 PM

Yep... Who makes this one and what model is it?

This was mounted on a business that installs commercial and residential antennae. I called them and they told me they had them specially made to receive their local stations so it doesn't have a model name or number. It is an example of the type of antenna they should be selling to the general public. I don't remember which company made them but I want to say Antennacraft.

storm.exe

04-16-07, 12:53 AM

I could use some advice on possible antenna requirements.

Zip code is 77382, second story apartment with no buildings "behind" me in the direction of the towers (~44 miles)

These are the stations that I am interested in picking up:
digital - violet - vhf
KTXH-DT 20.1 MNT HOUSTON TX 178° 44.2 19
KHCW-DT 39.1 CW HOUSTON TX 177° 43.8 38
KUHT-DT 8.1 PBS HOUSTON TX 177° 43.4 9
KHOU-DT 11.1 CBS HOUSTON TX 177° 44.3 31
violet - uhf KTRK-DT 13.1 ABC HOUSTON TX 177° 43.4 32
violet - uhf KPRC-DT 2.1 NBC HOUSTON TX 177° 43.8 35

I currently have one of those $15 philips unamplified indoor loop/rabbit ear antennas and I am able to receive 30% signal strength on 11.1(CBS) and 13.1(ABC), 70% on 20.1. I cannot get my TV to admit to seeing 2.1 or 8.1 at all.

Since they are all Violet - UHF antennaweb says that I need a large directionaloutdoor preamplified antenna. Is that really the case if I can get these numbers with just this crappy little loop? Since it is an apartment roof-top mounting is out of the question, but I could mount it outside on the balcony without an issue.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

videobruce

04-16-07, 08:58 AM

Wow, if the below links are correct; 18 stations (though six are low power), 35 miles away, all in the same direction. An installers wet dream!;
http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/mapbrowse-tbl?lat=30.06194&lon=-95.38380&wid=0.25&ht=0.25&mlat=30.06194&mlon=-95.38380&msym=redpin&off=CITIES&mlabel=Spring,+TX
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp?latitude=30%2E06194&longitude=%2D95%2E38380&magnetic_north=%2D4&range=90&sort=distance&show_expired=True&show_construction=True&show_analog=True&show_low_power=False&action=Show+Stations

BTW, your zip code isn't reconized by the US Census Bureau (first link) or by the NOAA data center;
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/seg/geomag/jsp/Declination.jsp

Is your balcony facing south?

storm.exe

04-16-07, 11:43 AM

BTW, your zip code isn't reconized by the US Census Bureau (first link) or by the
NOAA data center

Is your balcony facing south?

Yeah, it is on the south side of the building.

That is really strange about the zip code not being recognized..

videobruce

04-16-07, 11:58 AM

How high up?

storm.exe

04-16-07, 01:24 PM

How high up?

Relative to the ground, only about 20 feet up.

Relative to sea-level, about 160 feet according to usgs.gov

Regarding the zip code, I guess 77381 can be used for a general reference of the area on those sites, but it is technically 77382.

Thanks in advance.

Jesse31

04-17-07, 10:38 AM

Storm.exe
Where on usgs.gov can I access elevation data?

videobruce

04-17-07, 11:12 AM

Try Google Earth.

storm.exe

04-17-07, 10:15 PM

I was using: http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnispublic/f?p=171:1:11811653820097795229

I downloaded Google Earth and I prefer it, though.

SWHouston

04-18-07, 12:49 AM

storm.exe,

I have a VU-90XR (Rad Shack) mounted in my Attic. Good reception !
If you have access to it (attic) !?!

Have a good Day ! :)

engage

05-07-07, 07:55 PM

Hi all. Im a noob that wants to go OTA all the way. No cable, no satellite just Netflix for my Oppo and whatever is free. I recently ran RG6 to three rooms plus a run to the chimney where I plan to install a Yagi. All the runs converge in the basement where I plan to split the signal. I have one new 40" Sony flat panel and one older Sony 32" XBR. My thinking is to get an OTA digital receiver for the older Sony but the market is not exactly flooded with em. Any recommendations that won't break the bank? Also Im thinking of using the terrestial digital Y2XG for the antenna. Here's my specs for location. Zip 55416 The antenna farm is about 13 miles compass orientation is 48 and 45, frequencies are between 21 and 44. The problem is the Twin Cities are in between me and the farm. Oh yes there are lots of trees big elms and maples and yes I have a wife which means no antenna higher than the chimney. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Tom

Rick0725

05-07-07, 08:17 PM

The 43 xg would be perfect there today.

I now use a 43 xg here and prefer it over the 42xg, cm4221, rs u75r which I have tried and compared here. I have a tree issue also and the 43xg tamed the signal fluctuations from the trees best out of the bunch mentioned .

2 channels are going to vhf in 2009.
KARE TO CH11
KMSP TO CH 9

considering the tree issue, would therefore select a winegard hd7080p or hd7082p. this will also allow you have plenty of cushion for windy days, to receive fm if interested, enough signal to maybe go without a preamp, and still view the vhf analog stations on the older equipment in the home till the transition in 2009.

if a preamp is necessary suggest the winegard hdp269.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=TD-43XG

http://www.summitsource.com/winegard-hdp269-12-db-gain-vhf-uhf-outdoor-offair-digital-signal-local-hdtv-channel-tv-antenna-aerial-12-vdc-75-ohm-preamplifier-designed-for-squareshooter-part-hdp269-p-5577.html

http://www.summitsource.com/winegard-hd7080p-outdoor-tv-antenna-hd7080-platinum-hd-39-element-vhf-uhf-offair-hdtv-digital-local-signal-television-aerial-red-zone-part-hd7080p-with-free-50-coaxial-cable-p-4562.html

http://www.summitsource.com/winegard-hd7082p-television-antenna-platinum-hd-50-element-vhf-uhf-offair-hdtv-local-channel-signal-digital-outdoor-tv-aerial-75-ohm-blue-zone-part-hd7082-with-coax-cable-p-4563.html

engage

05-07-07, 10:29 PM

Thanks Rick. I think I'll go with the 43 XG and stick with an all digital signal for now. Any suggestions for a digital receiver for my sony XBR?

Tom

Rick0725

05-07-07, 10:41 PM

alaskaman1666

05-07-07, 11:11 PM

Did anyone try the Jaycar 91 el UHF antenna. How does it compare to the 91XG?

holl_ands

05-08-07, 03:08 AM

the lg below receives ntsc, atsc, and qam ...and you get an 1080i upconverting dvd player/recorder. $199 on sale this week.

the samsung atsc/qam tuner alone is $179 in comparison. $20 gets you a dvd player/recorder.

I love my lg's. great picture for off air. damn I might just buy one!

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8251517&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat13900050019&id=1169512521931

http://us.lge.com/download/product/file/1000002469/DR787T.pdf
As long as you understand that the ATSC signal in ALL of these DVD Recorders
is down-rezzed....so it isn't HD, even when used as as OTA tuner:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10012691&#post10012691
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD_recorder#Comparison_of_2007_ATSC_DVD_recorders

Rick0725

05-08-07, 06:57 AM

what a bummer!!!

stinks actually.

videobruce

05-08-07, 07:31 AM

More of a joke, a scam and misrepresentation. A "HD" tuner that doesn't output HD.

videobruce

05-08-07, 09:35 AM

No, one out directly as compoment, the other out to be downconverted for the recorder. One tuner, two outputs (internally). The reason it is this way is in my sig.

cylonsix

05-28-07, 03:48 AM

How reliable are rotators???
My "Magnavox M61415" stopped working today, stuck pointing north. The controller has power, I checked with a voltmeter. I have only have had it hooked-up 2 months. This was my 1st rotator.
Did I get a lemon???

Anyone recommend a rotator that can handle 5ft maste w/ a med sized antenna on top & that will last a few years!!

The 'Magnavox M61415' manuel said that 5 ft maste for my sized antenna was fine. Should I cut it down to 2.5 feet next time? It died today & it will be a week or 2 until I can get someone to take it down so I can see what the real problem is.

thanks for any help

videobruce

05-28-07, 09:36 AM

They use to be very reliable, but with all these Chineese imports who knows. The onbly rotor I ever used is Channel Master. Now that there are a dozen 'clones' out there and even Channel Master imports their model, I don't know how reliable they are.
I purchased the Eagle Aspen DiSEqC rotor, but haven't installed it yet (other projects are coming first). I'll have to see how well that holds up.

As far as that Magotbox version, it's probably as good or bad as any of the others. Take the antenna down and try the rotor inside as see what happens. It might be something simple.

videobruce

05-28-07, 11:20 AM

I think I would go with a no name import before I would ever consider that 'thing'. That had to be the worst designed control box ever made. I have seen those at many Hamfests and they just ususlly get tossed where as the CM design usually get bought (sometimes by me). I will admit they are no fun to 'rebuild' and I never took a Alliance apart, but the CM design have held up for me over the years (other than the grease drying out).

I'm really surprised you even mentioned those.

videobruce

05-29-07, 07:20 AM

Too bad their control box was so noisey.

Nitewatchman

05-29-07, 10:43 AM

I haven't used a U110, but I do use an Alliance HD-73-1. It's great .... Heavier duty than would be needed for most TV antenna setups, but that won't hurt anything ... Note although actually currently on my TV antenna setup I'm using a very old CDE-44 -- A Potientiometer is bad in the alliance, so I swapped rotors and haven't had a chance to fix it yet ...

On HD73 Control box is quiet, and the dual speed is nice as well. For instance the slow speed regarding precise aiming for weak, distant stations. There is an odd quirk to a control circuit however as it came ... at least on my mine(which I bought new directly from them at Dayton Hamfest in Early 90's --- interestingly enough -- for less cost than it seems to be currently available) ... if the bulb that illuminates the azimuth indication meter burns out, you can't turn the rotor until it's replaced, LOL ...

CDE-44 works nicely as well, but I like the alliance for the dual speed control .....

videobruce

05-29-07, 11:02 AM

Those really aren't classified as TV rotors,
Different league.

HuskerMike

06-19-07, 08:34 PM

OK, quick question. I just installed a Antennas Direct DB-8 in the attic and have it split, one 25 feet to a LCD in the kitchen and the other feed 75 feet to a Pioneer in the basement. My stations are all over the place:

yellow - vhf WOWT 6 NBC OMAHA NE 63° 7.0 6
* yellow - uhf WOWT-DT 6.1 NBC OMAHA NE 63° 7.0 22
yellow - vhf KMTV 3 CBS OMAHA NE 65° 6.9 3
* yellow - uhf KMTV-DT 3.1 CBS OMAHA NE 65° 6.9 45
yellow - vhf KETV 7 ABC OMAHA NE 64° 7.0 7
* yellow - uhf KETV-DT 7.1 ABC OMAHA NE 64° 7.0 20
red - vhf KUON 12 PBS LINCOLN NE 235° 18.3 12
* red - uhf KUON-DT 40.1 PBS LINCOLN NE 235° 18.3 40
red - uhf KXVO 15 CW OMAHA NE 191° 14.4 15
red - uhf KYNE 26 PBS OMAHA NE 93° 7.5 26
* red - uhf KYNE-DT 26.1 PBS OMAHA NE 93° 7.5 17
red - uhf KPTM 42 FOX OMAHA NE 191° 14.4 42
blue - uhf KBIN 32 PBS COUNCIL BLUFFS IA 90° 16.5 32

My best alignment is pointing it west-southwest, that gets the closer CBS/ABC/NBC stations through the back, but enough pointed at the FOX and CW stations to get those. PBS is very weak though. On the downstairs Pioneer, most stations have signal strengths in the 60's, though occasionally dropping out to the 50's and showing pixelation. PBS really doesn't come through in HD down there. I'm thinking I need a pre-amp coming out of the splitter to the basement. (I can probably live without it on the LCD.) I tried a Magnavox pre-amp from Menards and it seemed to make things worse.

Any recommendations? I don't think I need much of a boost, though I wouldn't mind picking up a distant CBS and ABC signal that's 60 miles west. Occasionally I get a very snowy analog picture from the CBS affiliate on VHF, so I know I'm not COMPLETELY out of range.

videobruce

06-20-07, 07:25 AM

HuskerMike; Not knowing exactly where you are, I used this point (1/2 mile from KYNE);

http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/mapsurfer?infact=2&outfact=2&act=move&on=CITIES&on=railroad&on=street_names&on=ushwy&tlevel=-&tvar=-&tmeth=i&mlat=41.26390&mlon=-96.01174&msym=redpin&mlabel=Omaha__NE&murl=&lat=41.26390&lon=-96.01174&wid=0.250&ht=0.250&conf=mapnew.con

to provide this;

http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp?latitude=41%2E26390&longitude=%2D96%2E01174&magnetic_north=5&range=90&sort=distance&show_expired=True&show_construction=True&show_analog=False&show_low_power=False&action=Show+Stations

I don't see the need of any amp with stations less than 18 miles away (unless you want the ones further out). Especially with your CBS & ABC affilates' output as high as it is.

SWHouston

06-20-07, 10:45 AM

HuskerMike,

Gees, that spread on your Tower Locations, looks a LOT like it does for me here in Houston!
First of all, I found your Antenna at:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB8_HD_Antenna.html

Now, IF you bit into the harp/BS of what they call “multidirectional”, you shouldn’t have!
You got a directional Antenna, even though they say otherwise.

Bow Tie Antennas “may” have a bit broader “view” than do the Yagi types, but never the less, you only got about 20-30* to use, and there are NO TWO locations that you have provided, which can be viewed with one setting. Here’s a “fat free” list of your Tower Locations, regrouped according to Azimuth.

WOWT___ 6___ NBC 63° 7.0
WOWT-DT 6.1_ NBC 63° 7.0
KETV____ 7___ ABC 64° 7.0
KETV-DT_ 7.1_ ABC 64° 7.0
KMTV____ 3__ CBS 65° 6.9
KMTV-DT 3.1_ CBS 65° 6.9

KBIN____ 32__ PBS 90° 16.5
KYNE____ 26__ PBS 93° 7.5
KYNE-DT_ 26.1 PBS 93° 7.5

KXVO____ 15_ CW 191° 14.4
KPTM____ 42_ FOX 191° 14.4

KUON____ 12__ PBS 235° 18.3
KUON-DT_ 40.1 PBS 235° 18.3

Furthermore, given that the DB-8 has a mesh reflector as most BT’s do, it inhibits reception from the back side of the Antenna, intentionally! So, even though your locations are at 63 & 235* (almost directly across from each other) I don’t think you’re going to be able to receive both of those locations, with one setting on the Antenna.

I agree with videobruce about the Amp, IF you got the Cable in right.
Hopefully, you used the RG-6 instead of the RG-56, it’s a lot more capable wire, and, hopefully you didn’t route that 75’ run, near any electrical wires, and your system is Grounded well.

Additionally, the type of Splitter you used (anything but Rad Shack’s) should have a Grounding Lug on it, where you can single wire off to a Cold Water Pipe in the Attic.

So, it looks like you are stuck with one setting at a time, or, get a Motor/Rotator, or, an A/B Switch with a second Antenna, and possibly have to do an Auto Channel Search each time you change from A to B.
Sorry about that.

Just a tip, IF you have a small Portable TV, take it up to the Attic, use a short cable to connect it to the Antenna, and do a single channel setting (adjusting for best reception), on each channel you have. Make notes of the exact Azimuth, with a Compass, and compare what you get, to the actual Azimuth listed above.

This procedure will identify where you may have signals which are being reflected from surrounding structures, and allow you to redirect the Antenna to reduce that.

And another thing, go to:
http://www.tvfool.com
and set your Range/Distance for 70 to 90 miles. Just check out what’s out there, that the DB-8 can get. Given how close you are to your towers, you might have selected a smaller antenna, but, more is “usually” better !? This should provide about the same chart as the second URL that videobruce gave you. But, havng a second refference, may be helpful to you.
Best of luck!

Have a good Day ! :)

HD_crazy

07-17-07, 04:25 AM

videobruce

07-17-07, 06:37 AM

all he did was run an auto scan as "antenna" on his TV setting and it started finding HD channels Yep.it was uploading really slowly like downloading a file Uploading?. That is the scan process. It has to 'see' the channel, then ID that channel, then ID all of the sub channels. It takes awhile.
These aren't your fathers (grandfathers) TV's anymore.

BTW, where are you and welcome to the forums.

jtbell

07-17-07, 09:20 AM

How do I get HD reception through a regular antenna??

The term "HDTV antenna" is just a marketing gimmick. Digital TV (including HDTV) is broadcast in the same frequency bands (VHF and UHF) as analog TV. An antenna cares only about the frequency of the signal that it's receiving: a VHF antenna usually can't pick up UHF very well, and vice versa. Whether the content of the signal carried on that VHF or UHF channel is analog or digital doesn't matter until it gets to the TV's tuner (or set-top-box's tuner, for people using a standalone HDTV receiver).

Most of the so-called "HDTV antennas" have designs that are decades old.

videobruce

07-17-07, 09:28 AM

Don't forget to also specify "Color Approved". ;)

schnurmac

07-18-07, 10:28 AM

How do I get HD reception through a regular antenna?? My friend just did it on his and he said all he did was run an auto scan as "antenna" on his TV setting and it started finding HD channels but it was uploading really slowly like downloading a file?
You will need a UHF antenna. Also a HD TV with a digital tuner. Some TVs don't have a tuner. I know allot of people who thought they got a good deal a TV with no tuner. Or a set top box with an antenna input. I have my antenna run into a coax splitter then to my TV and the other to my DT receiver so I can use picture in picture. Once you have it connected go to menu on tv and scan for available channels. As asked before where are you located. Others here can tell you what you can get as far as channels and what kind and size of antenna to get. If you live in a city you may get away with a small indoor one. I do mine is this one. http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Philips-Indoor-HDTV-Antenna-PHDTV1/sem/rpsm/oid/158311/catOid/-12886/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

Bob Coxner

07-21-07, 06:32 PM

I'm looking for recommendations on an indoor antenna. My situation from antennaweb is:

yellow - uhf KWKT-DT 44.1 FOX WACO TX 195° 9.8 57
yellow - uhf KWTX-DT 10.1 CBS WACO TX 193° 9.1 53
yellow - uhf KWBU-DT 34.1 PBS WACO TX 202° 9.8 20
green - vhf KCEN-DT 9.1 NBC TEMPLE TX 161° 12.4 9
red - uhf KXXV-DT 25.1 ABC WACO TX 193° 8.0 26
red - uhf KNCT-DT 46.1 PBS BELTON TX 209° 38.4 38

I'm currently using an old Radio Shack rabbit ears antenna 15-1864. My typical signal strengths (as reported by my HR20-700 DirecTV DVR) are:

Channel 9.1 = 65% to 70% (generally good but occasional pixelation)
10.1 = 100% (always good)
25.1 = 100% (always good)
34.1 = 50% to 80% (quality bounces around a lot, moderate video/audio dropouts)
44.1 = 40% (the quality is actually pretty good, with only occasional dropouts)
46.1 = 0%

My major problem is 9.1 vs 44.1. If I tweak to get a better 9.1 I lose 44.1 entirely. If I tweak to get a better 44.1 then I either lose 9.1 or it gets really bad. To get all of them I'm right on the razor's edge. I had to tweak for an hour to get reception on all channels and even then I still have the 9.1 and 44.1 problems that come and go. I would also like for 34.1 to be more stable. It would be nice if I could get 46.1 but it's not critical.

I'd prefer an antenna that's sold by Amazon, given their liberal return policies. In my situation, does anyone have any thoughts about the

Terk HDTVi or HDTVa
Philips PHDTV3 or PHDTV1
Jensen TV931

I wish I could go with a pure UHF antenna but, if I read antennaweb correct, 9.1 is their final landing spot.

Thanks!

WJonathan

07-22-07, 01:07 AM

I'm looking for recommendations on an indoor antenna. My situation from antennaweb is:...
I wish I could go with a pure UHF antenna but, if I read antennaweb correct, 9.1 is their final landing spot.

Thanks!

Ok, does your current antenna have a loop, or just poles?

I have been in a similar situation here in Richmond VA where I live near the towers but reception is affected by my altitude and treelines. My final solution after a lot of experimentation is "cheap antenna, quality amplifier".

If you have a Big Lots nearby, try the $3 unamped loop n pole antenna they sell. Being multidirectional. it can be positioned to grab channels from a few different angles. And I have had the best luck with these cheap, simple models of generic Big Lots antennas than any of the name brand trash made by Philips, RCA etc sold at retail.

My final solution has been to gang a Zenith Silver Sensor together with a cheap Big Lots loop and pole together with a $4 GE splitter/combiner, and run it through a Leviton 25 db amp to clear up a few of the weak signals. I got the amp, which has an FM trap and a variable gain dial, new off ebay for $20. The two antennas have been positioned just right to prevent mulitpathing.

The reason I went through all this was because only one TV in the house is digital, with two remaining old analogue TVs. I wanted to run it all through the currently unsused cable box, to avoid antennas in the house. Of course, the analogue towers are all over town, with one being 180 deg from the rest. The digital towers are all clustered to gether. So the Silver Sensor, which is a great unidirectional antenna, picks up the digital towers, and the other handles the off-angle analogue ones. I have 90+ signal strength on the digitals, and good reception on the analogues with a touch of ghosting.

BTW I have an XBR970 too. Nice set isnt it. :D

videobruce

07-22-07, 08:10 AM

If this is you;
http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/mapsurfer?act=in&infact=2&map.x=211&map.y=180&lat=31.3551598&lon=-97.2130814&wid=1.000&ht=1.000&iht=359&iwd=422&&&&&&on=CITIES&on=railroad&tlevel=-&tvar=-&tmeth=i&mlat=31.38231&mlon=-97.21271&msym=redpin&mlabel=Lorena__TX&murl=&conf=mapnew.con

Then this is what you get;
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp?latitude=31%2E3523769&longitude=%2D97%2E2131729&magnetic_north=5&range=90&sort=distance&show_expired=True&show_construction=True&show_analog=False&show_low_power=False&action=Show+Stations

Looks like you are either too close or too far away. The five networks you should be able to receive with just about anything.
If you want the distant stuff, you will probably have a problem (if it is even possible which I doubt, at least because of overload from the locals).

Too bad you have that oddball VHF station (NBC 9.1) to contend with. Most UHF antennas will receive the high band ok. Since they are not in the same direction you really need to be able to turn the antenna. Do you have a attic or crawl space (or access to) where you are? How about a large closet with a open ceiling area where an antenna could be placed?

It's best to use the actual channel numbers (another reason I don't like antennaweb). The only VHF you have is the one I mentioned;

25.1 ABC
9.1 NBC
53.1 CBS
57.1 FOX
20.1 PBS

The only other VHF stations are; 13.1, (Univision) 63 miles away, a low power 12.1 (72 miles) and another 9.1 (86 miles low power).

Bang for the buck, this is still my recomemded choice (and at the same price for the SS clones, under $20);
http://www.eagleaspen.com/products/products_1.php?id=49

EArkHog

07-24-07, 11:12 PM

I bought a nice TV with digital tuner and I've been loving the improved PQ. I began messing around with the old attic VHF/UHF antenna, trying to perfect the reception. After several weeks, I moved the antenna up to the chimney, and was very surprised to discover that there was little, if any, improvement in PQ. I still had problems during the day - certain channels with macroblocking (term?), picture freezing, ... the usual stuff for digital reception.

I got tired of messin' around with it, so I bought a Channel Master 4228, and I thought I had finally licked the problem for good. My location is about 30 miles from all broadcast towers. And lucky for me, every broadcast antenna is pretty well grouped in a narrow (20 deg) range. (zip code 72301)

More than a few times, after spending hours bouncing (ha ha, I'm 56 - "bouncing" - right) between the top of the chimney and the living room, I went to bed happy that I finally achieved some really good reception (like 95 to 100 on the meter for every channel). But then the next morning, there it was again (on those same few problem channels) - those damned macro blocks. What really bugs me is that one of my problem channels is the excellent PBS station with all the HD broadcasts.

I am inclined to suspect the tree adjacent to the house is at least part of my problem. But that tree don't go nowhere at night, and my PQ is excellent after dark.

I am afraid that throwing money (i.e., channel master 7777 preamp) at this stuborn problem isn't going to solve it. I don't know if the problem is due to differences in the broadcast at night compared to the daytime, of if there is something about how the RF signal travels during the day vs. night.

I am concerned about overloading. But I don't know what else to do.

Ideas? Suggestions? Valium?

MeowMeow

07-24-07, 11:33 PM

EArkHog

07-24-07, 11:55 PM

At 30 mi overload shouldn't be an issue. However, getting the antenna away from the tree would be the better option if feasible.

I have the CM 4228 with the CM 7777, and I have four channels at 40 mi through a tree. Three are solid locks all the time. The fourth I've never seen, but it has two side channels and a co-channel all with in 80mi, so you could have a hard time blaming the tree.

I'd strongly suggest trying to move the antenna around if possible.

If you have a long run (50' plus) throw on the CM 7777. Remember, the preamp is meant to hold a signal over a long run of cable. it cannot magically make the reception better.

Okay, thanks. I've got the 7777 on order (cable run is 100 ft.). I'm glad to know it won't hurt my reception, at least.

If I cut down that tree, there's still another tree in the neighbor's yard 50 feet away. And another tree after that - etc. I guess my neighborhood is just 'tree infested', or shady, depending on how you look at it.

I did some pruning this weekend to clear out branches and twigs within about 15 feet of the antenna. I damn near killed myself up in that tree, but it didn't seem to make any difference to the PQ. (grrrr)

Anyone have any thoughts about the daytime /night time difference in reception "phenomenon"?

MeowMeow

07-25-07, 12:17 AM

Anyone have any thoughts about the daytime /night time difference in reception "phenomenon"?

That's just the diurnal cycle. The atmosphere heats and cools. The end consequence is that the reflection of the signal changes between day and night.

This will also shift as fall and winter come. Generally, these shifts are positive.

And when the trees lose their leaves, you might see some better signal from that, too.

videobruce

07-25-07, 10:26 AM

At 30 mi overload shouldn't be an issue. Better look at the link I provided. He has stations less than 10 miles away. That amp will be swamped as any other will.

videobruce

07-25-07, 11:52 AM

yagi style is suited best and bowties handle the situation worst Rick, please explain why.

Regarding that Winegard preamp, you don't think any preamp will be overload with that many stations 8-10 miles away?? I saw your thread in two other forums, have you found any plain 'amps' that have a very high input level capibility? The best I found was discontinued many years ago, but still may be available (Winegard DA-1018).

MeowMeow

07-25-07, 12:12 PM

Better look at the link I provided. He has stations less than 10 miles away. That amp will be swamped as any other will.

Missed that 10 mi stations part. My bad. Good catch.

videobruce

07-25-07, 12:19 PM

Since I don't know exactly where he is, that location was based on what the Tiger Map Server showed (which I know is not the best source).

KenL

07-25-07, 01:26 PM

Better look at the link I provided. He has stations less than 10 miles away. That amp will be swamped as any other will.Who has that many stations 10 miles away?

Looks like MeowMeow was addressing EArkHog (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11116466&&#post11116466)near Memphis (72301) and from that zip looks to be only a single (low power) station within 10 miles. Most around 25 miles or more away. Anything fading during the day (from weak signal) surely isn't strong enough to appreciably overload an amp and likely not a receiver for that matter, after 100 feet of coax. Of course 30 miles away and fading could be other issues, I'd want to check the corresponding analogs.

EArkHog

07-25-07, 02:18 PM

[/QUOTE] the only times I have an issue with amplification is if the user is not content with just receiving the local market stations...but also want to receive stations in the next market or 2. you really do not need an amp in the suburbs unless the coax runs are long and split many times. and gain should be minimal under 30 miles.

I tend to install oversized antennas anyways and not smaller and have to amplify and deal with the issues associated with overamplification. many of the distribution amps that I have tried just do not suit my needs and have instead used the hdp 269 as a distribution amp.

the boonies are another process all together different.[/QUOTE]

I bought the CM 4228 thinking it was oversized for the distance, and being less direction might do better at picking up signals filtering through the trees. But those thoughts were not based on any understanding of how this stuff really works.

I checked antennaweb again. You're right - it's not 30 miles. I've got 3 stations that are 25 miles out and 3 that are 20 miles out. I am interested only in the digital broadcasts, which are currently all UHF (hence the bowties).

I am afraid "suck it up" is what I'm stuck with. That and a brand new 7777.

You guys have great. Thanks.

extacamo

07-30-07, 11:11 AM

MeowMeow

07-30-07, 11:37 AM

I have a quick couple of questions. I need to install an amp and rotor with my CM4228. The questions I have is where is the best place to mount the amp with a rotor? Should I put the amp before or after the rotor? Also, what is the best way to deal with dressing the RG-6 so it doesn't come loose from the constant twisting when the antenna spins? Thanks

I put mine below the rotator. With a 6' coax it has enough slack, because the balun is only a couple feet above the rotator once you have the CM 4228 mounted.

EArkHog

07-30-07, 01:57 PM

That's just the diurnal cycle. The atmosphere heats and cools. The end consequence is that the reflection of the signal changes between day and night.

This will also shift as fall and winter come. Generally, these shifts are positive.

And when the trees lose their leaves, you might see some better signal from that, too.

I know you've been worrying about me, so I figured I'd better report...

I am DELIGHTED to report that the CM7777 did the trick. I didn't have to chop down trees or move my chimney-mounted 4228. All is well here in 72301.

sharktooth

07-30-07, 02:48 PM

EArkHog

07-30-07, 03:00 PM

EArkHog: did CM 7777 help you gain signal for the existing channels or did you get any new channels and how far are you from the Tower? I got CM 4228 myself and I am about 60 miles away from Grand Island, Buffalo but I am not getting any of the Buffalo stations. So, I am wondering if I should get a different kind of antenna or install CM 7777 to see if I can get any new stations.

My set of available local stations is set. I am only 25 miles from the broacast towers. I was having trouble getting daytime reception through that damned tree next to the house. Your issues are more challenging. I am certainly no expert, but I'll bet you need a more directional antenna than the 4228. Fortunately this forum provides us with access to some real experts. Good luck.

sharktooth

07-30-07, 05:41 PM

Can anyone help me with my problem here? Is CM 4248 going to improve the situation or anything that will help me get the Buffalo stations? Any help is appreciated.

EArkHog

07-30-07, 11:52 PM

Can anyone help me with my problem here? Is CM 4248 going to improve the situation or anything that will help me get the Buffalo stations? Any help is appreciated.

Don't forget to browse this adjacent thread - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=381623

AntAltMike

07-31-07, 07:10 PM

I just bought a couple square feet of copper foil from a local art supply house so that I could shield some Winegard UT-2700 notch filters and Channel Master Jointennas. Even at the local art store's inflated prices, the foil cost per trap shielded will only be a buck and a half.

As luck would have it, today I got a catalog in the mail from my lowest-price supplier for UT-2700s. I had been buying them in single quantities from them for just under $22. Well, surprise, surprise! They now sell them for $45.60 in single quantities, with the price dropping to $41.50 if I buy a dozen at a time.

I just searched this item out on the internet, and nearly everyone is now charging $46 to $50 for it, with Solid Signal charging $79.99. One eBay seller is offering them in his "store" for $28.94, but with $21.75 added to that for shipping and no combined shipping discounts (in a bubble envelope, the actual shipping cost would be a few dollars, tops).

I found only one seller cheaper than that, quoting $37.25, but it looked like an old page and I will be surprised if they stil will sell them that cheaply if I order a bunch.

This filter costs no more to make than Winegard's FM-7600, yet my main supplier held its price for those at $16.10 each, $14.95/12. I guess it is a simple matter of requests coming in for this product and Winegard analyzing the marketplace and seeing that no one is offering any kind of a tunable notch for under $100.

Tower Guy

07-31-07, 08:41 PM

Can anyone help me with my problem here? Is CM 4248 going to improve the situation or anything that will help me get the Buffalo stations? Any help is appreciated.

Find your geographical coordinates with a GPS or a mapping program and enter them here: http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

DTV stations on UHF shown with a signal strength of -80 dbm or stronger will be fine. Between -80 and -90 dbm should also work if the conditions are favorable. Weaker than -90 dbm depends on many other factors.

Damascada

08-02-07, 01:46 AM

Hello,

We are planning to upgrade our current antenna in advance of purchasing an LCD flat screen and the upcoming Feb 09 changeover to digital. The current antenna is in an inconvenient location and damaged. I am unsure of the brand and the size is about medium or average. We generally have good reception on the major networks form Austin (about 50-60 miles away). Our zip is 78642.

Antennaweb says we need a blue-violet LD antenna. After reading various reviews we are inclined towards the CM 4228 or XG-91. There is a single VHF channel (FOX 7) which we occasionally watch which does not yet have a digital signal. The rest are all UHF in the 18-42 range. All are in the 161-163 degrees orientation range.

We have a mast installed about 8 feet from the side of the house--set 2-3 feet (we hit rock) in concrete and bolted to a line fence post (also set in concrete). The diameter of the steel pole is 2 3/8". Height about 16'. Wind should not be a huge issue as long as the attachment of the actual antenna is strong (tips?)

Is the CM 4228 or XG-91 a good choice or would you recommend another product?

What additional items will we need to attach the antenna to our 2 3/8" mast? How would you recommend doing this?

What additional items will we need to ground the antenna? How would you recommend doing this?

Our current antenna wire runs from the much more distant current pole to the side of the attic--the tension has caused it to pull away from the wall so repair will be needed. Our satellite internet service is run from a dish with the cable buried for maybe 8 linear feet a few inches in the ground to the edge of our porch and then through the porch rafters and into the house. This works well. We would prefer to do the same with the antenna cable but the location it is coming from has a tendency to flood and remain in standing water for a few hours to a few days at a time in heavy rains. We intend to use RG6 quad shielded 75 ohm coax. Would the burying/flooding be a problem with reception or other issues? We feel we would again encounter problems with attachment/weight of cable if we run to the attic and since the new mast is higher the wire would run *down* to the attic thus possibly creating water infiltration issues even with a drip loop.

Thanks for any advice you can give.

Rick0725

08-02-07, 09:44 AM

the cm 4228 is a good choice but not sure it will be sufficient for the vhf later. there are a couple hi band vhf possibilities in your market but I do not have the fcc chart handy with me right now

I am leaning towards a 91xg and ya1713 ch 7-13 combo setup. If you need to add vhf later this combination is easier to stack on a mast.

nybbler

08-02-07, 01:51 PM

Our satellite internet service is run from a dish with the cable buried for maybe 8 linear feet a few inches in the ground to the edge of our porch and then through the porch rafters and into the house. This works well. We would prefer to do the same with the antenna cable but the location it is coming from has a tendency to flood and remain in standing water for a few hours to a few days at a time in heavy rains.

Cable meant for burial is available. If you use regular cable under those circumstances it's not going to last, unless you run it in conduit.

mamaduce

08-09-07, 10:49 PM

CT_Wiebe

08-09-07, 11:43 PM

Rick0725 -- I have a CM 4228 and it is a very good antenna (it replaced a 30 year old VHF/UHF antenna). I am 50 miles from most of the local network towers and the local PBS tower is 18+ miles away and 30 degrees off axis, but still comes in strong (I don't have to use my rotator at all). All the HD OTA channels have excellent picture quality.

From what I've read, the CM 4228 works down below the analog channel 7 frequency (at least analog channel 9 comes in at my house and its tower is also 50 mile away). See the Channel Master web site. It does have a gain roll-off in the high UHF bands, but those will be going way too. The usability of the antenna below channel 14 is supposed to be undesirable, but it really isn't for those areas of the country that will be using the high VHF for digital TV. The Winegard equivalent of the CM 4228, doesn't have that "advantage".

MeowMeow

08-10-07, 12:11 AM

The next antenna I buy, I intend to try the 91xg. I have the CM 4228, and it does pretty respectably, considering I'm in TV reception hell. I live halfway down a valley, my channels are spread across from 75 degrees all the way to 285. I have numerous surrounding large trees, and all but one of my signals must cross directly over the town and a large opposing ridge that is 200 feet higher that where I am.

I have noticed that the high UHF issue with the CM 4228 is not limited to 50+. KDKA in Pittsburgh (UHF 25) is a solid lock from 200-260 degrees all the time while all the higher channel DTV Pittsburgh stations come in intermittently depending mostly on time of day at 240-250 degrees.

I have to think this is an example of where the 91xg's considerably better directionality and stronger gain on higher UHF would be helpful.

Also, it ought to be taken into consideration that the CM 4228 is a mammoth antenna especially if you're installing it by yourself. Once you add two masts, a rotor, a VHF antenna, a pre-amp and a tripod... well, that's a hell of a lot weight to move around on a roof.

T-Techster

08-10-07, 10:50 AM

I replaced my DB2 from Directv with a radio shack VU-90 XR in hopes that I would be able to pick up a few distant channels in Austin, TX (about 55 miles away). They were intermittently coming in with the DB2 I thought with the bigger antenna they would pop right in. They do sometimes at night or when the wind blows the right direction, but not for very long. Do you think a pre-amp would help the stations come in and stay in. My zip is 76542 and the stations in Austin I want to pick up are 24-1 and 7-1, 42-1, and 54-1. I saw a winegard 8700 in a local store was wondering if that model is worth trying. Don't know anything about antennas and any info will help.

A pre-amp will definitely help. Since you're in Killeen, that's close enough to pick up the Austin HD signals (unless your southern line of sight is obstructed). I read some other posts about reception being good in the 80 mile range, but pre-amp was needed.

All the Austin HD signals are currently on UHF. But in 2009 when the analog is gone, KTBC (FOX) will move the digital signal over to VHF Ch. 7.

So it's good that you got a VHF/UHF antenna.

mamaduce

08-11-07, 12:57 AM

Thanks, I will try the pre-amp and let you know if it works

lamartina

08-15-07, 01:58 PM

im in forest, va (24551-1035) and have no idea on what type of antenna to get....... i cant get any channels except for WSET (abc) in Lynchburg, va with my Phillips indoor antenna. i can get a signal strength of about 0%-10% on all the other stations based in Roanoke, Richmond, AND Charlottesville.........although Richmond is 70+ miles away, and Charlottesville is about 62 miles away.............. any help would be appreciated.

jspENC

08-15-07, 02:41 PM

You need a low band VHF antenna for PBS on channel 3 and a UHF antenna. You could either go with seperate antenna's or could go for one of those big combo antenna's with UHF corner reflector.

Here's the link I looked at with the zip code http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

videobruce

08-16-07, 09:07 AM

lamartina; with this as reference;
http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/mapsurfer?act=out&outfact=2&map.x=211&map.y=180&lat=37.3376007&lon=-79.2792664&wid=0.050&ht=0.050&iht=359&iwd=422&&mlat=37.337878&mlon=-79.279116&msym=redpin&mlabel=24551__Forest_

I got this;
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp?latitude=37%2E33788&longitude=%2D79%2E27912&magnetic_north=%2D10&range=90&sort=distance&show_expired=True&show_construction=True&show_analog=False&show_low_power=False&action=Show+Stations

My first question is; how high up are you and how 'hilly' is the terrain? You will need a good antenna array for most of that list along with a good preamp.

BTW; welcome to the forums.

lamartina

08-16-07, 10:00 AM

thx, well, about the terrain, i live in the foothills of the BLUE RIDGE MTNS (Allegheny Mtn range), so its very 'hilly'.

im about 795 ft. above sea level.

videobruce

08-16-07, 10:59 AM

Concern here is what is between you and them and how high.

lamartina

08-16-07, 11:16 AM

the mountains with an elevation of any where from 1,000-4,000 ft.

lamartina

08-17-07, 10:47 AM

and there are lots of trees that are over 30 feet tall.....

mamaduce

08-17-07, 03:50 PM

A pre-amp will definitely help. Since you're in Killeen, that's close enough to pick up the Austin HD signals (unless your southern line of sight is obstructed). I read some other posts about reception being good in the 80 mile range, but pre-amp was needed.

All the Austin HD signals are currently on UHF. But in 2009 when the analog is gone, KTBC (FOX) will move the digital signal over to VHF Ch. 7.

So it's good that you got a VHF/UHF antenna.

We tried the pre-amp and lost some of the locals we had (Winegard 8700). Directv has the ota antenna running through a splitter to 2 receivers. Today we are going to try to run it straight to the tv and see if we get the same results.

T-Techster

08-21-07, 02:37 PM

We tried the pre-amp and lost some of the locals we had (Winegard 8700). Directv has the ota antenna running through a splitter to 2 receivers. Today we are going to try to run it straight to the tv and see if we get the same results.

If you have too much signal from your local analog UHF channels (Ch 25, 44, etc) the pre-amp might over amplify and cause some harmonics and distortion. If the pre-amp is getting too much signal from the local analog stations, it will kill your digital reception on the Austin stations you're trying to pick up.

Good idea to try and bypass the splitter. You can also try and point the antenna slightly more to the SW. Since the 8700 is directional, this might reduce the signal you're getting off the back end (local analog from towers between Temple and Waco).

lamartina

08-21-07, 02:45 PM

Is the ANTENNA CRAFT MXU59 a good choice? or are the CM4228 and 91XG better choices?, in other words, what are the differences?

mamaduce

08-21-07, 10:23 PM

Directv has a lot of splitters and diplexers running everywhere, that we don't know which cable goes to what. We hired a private contractor to come out the end of the week to clean them up and remove all those excess splitters and diplexer. He couldn't believe all the splitter that directv had installed over the 10 years we have had them. Will try your suggestion as soon as he cleans up all the cables. Thank for your help T-Techster

videobruce

08-22-07, 07:36 AM

For those of you that are looking at those DB4 & DB8 antennas, MCM is now carrying these "Terrestrial Digital" models that Antennas Direct sells.
The catalog numbers are; 30-2066 (DB4) $50 & 30-2067 (DB8) $81. Still overpriced compared to the 4224 & the 4228, but cheaper than what I have seen elsewhere.
The also sell the 2 bay version (30-2065), but at $36, that is over 2x the price of this same antenna ($16 dealer cost);
http://www.petra.com/product_info.php?product_id=EASDTV2BUHF

They also have three 'yagis';
30-2070 15 element, 35" boom ($43 "installer price"),

43XG (30-2071) 43 element 62" boom ($58 "installer price");
http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=MCMProducts&category%5Fname=1000172&product%5Fid=30%2D2071

91XG (30-2072) 91 element, 93" boom ($81 "installer price");
http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=MCMProducts&category%5Fname=1000172&product%5Fid=30%2D2072

They also have what appears to be a rip off of a older BT broadband amp; 36db gain w/ a FM trap and adjustable gain,
($18 "installer price" in their latest flyer) 33-8745;
http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=MCMProducts&category%5Fname=3830420&product%5Fid=33%2D8745

Larrydalooza

08-28-07, 10:24 PM

35 miles from antennas in Chicago. Just made my $2.00 antenna out of solid copper #14 wire... 4 bowties ... I tuned 23 HD channels and 17 Analog just by leaning it against a wall. No reflector or anything, just the thing the guy on YouTube made.

Lar.

lemmalone

08-29-07, 11:02 AM

We tried the pre-amp and lost some of the locals we had (Winegard 8700). Directv has the ota antenna running through a splitter to 2 receivers. Today we are going to try to run it straight to the tv and see if we get the same results.

Another option would be to try a 4 or 8bay bowtie, e.g., db4 or Channel Master 4221, or the db8 or Channel Master 4228. You can experiment inexpensively by making some from the thread below. The Antennas Direct 91xg might provide a solution, at least for the distant stations. Also, several people have written alot about receptions similar to yours. You might look for posts by Rick0725 in particular, who has posted about the 4228 and the 91xg.

http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9613&st=0

lamartina

09-10-07, 09:30 PM

Is the ANTENNA CRAFT MXU59 a good choice? or are the CM4228 and 91XG better choices?, in other words, what are the differences?

JJPP

09-23-07, 12:18 AM

Tower Guy

09-23-07, 12:41 AM

I live in Howell near Pickney zip 48843. I was hoping to get away with a cm 4221 or at most cm 4882. I am looking for an antenna to use in my attic or indoors for Detroit/Lansing hd/dtv. I currently am using a Radio Shack 15-1892 with so so results. I would like a more stable picture. I don't want to invest a lot of $$$ because when my Dish contract is up I am changing to Directv w/hd. I refuse to pay Dish's upgrade prices and new contract. Most store antennas are junk and if I order one off the internet I don't want to try to return it.

Using the default location on antennaweb.org, you will need to mount the antenna above your roof to get more than a couple DTV stations. Plan to use a rotator for multiple markets.

Ultimately you'll get Detroit stations with DirecTV, but the Lansing stations will be easier with the antenna. You may want to use both D* and OTA.

richard korsgren

09-24-07, 11:50 AM

[QUOTE=Tower Guy;11701544]Using the default location on antennaweb.org, you will need to mount the antenna above your roof to get more than a couple DTV stations. Plan to use a rotator for multiple markets.

Ultimately you'll get Detroit stations with DirecTV, but the Lansing stations will be easier with the antenna. You may want to use both D* and OTA.[/QUOI

I am somewhat west of you by 10 miles and I receive Detroit locals via Directv and the Lansing locals via UHF Televes antenna (loud and clear). I also have a rotator but really never use it. I 'split' the difference in locations of Lansing towers and still get 90-100 as signal strength. I have a Directv HD DVR. I would image, sometime in 08, Directv will carry Lansing stations. I can also get Flint stations but really find no need to do so. I find Directv and OTA give me about the same quality and that quality is excellent. For good reception an antenna must be mounted outdoors on roof with good line of sight to transmitting towers. You will need a rotator if you want to get sttions in opposite directions. I would go with Directv for Detroit locals and OTA for Lansing locals.

JJPP

09-24-07, 01:07 PM

Thanks Richard, I am going to switch to Directv as soon as my Dish contract expires. I didn't plan on a hdtv just yet but the old tv crapped out so I was not worried about it when I signed the contract. Now I've been spoiled by the sports that I can pickup ota. I was just looking to bridge the gap with a more reliable antenna. I was wondering when you get Directv Hd do you get all the digtal stations with hd or just the main hd brodcast?

MeowMeow

09-24-07, 02:24 PM

Rotator drift?

Somewhat odd question. I have a CM rotator that seems to drift off target. It doesn't take it very long before it is more than 100 degrees off target.

Is this normal?

It feels like one of those problems that you call the manufacturer and they send you a tiny screw to fix it.

navyblue2000

09-24-07, 08:52 PM

I was up in my attic today, and where they had previously wired the house for cable, they had this as an amp:

http://www.vonero.com/index/showproduct/830895

VSA-604C amplifier. It's 100 bucks or more retail, but that doesn't speak to its quality. I'm wondering if it's a good amp to use, and if the blue output is any different than the others. I'm still kinda new to this and I haven't found much information on the specifics of this amp.

Thanks for any info!

Mallego

09-24-07, 10:14 PM

navy, that amplifier was made by the Viewsonic Division of Emerson. It doesn't seem to be in their current product lineup.

I am familiar with their product line and can say that this amplifier has a good noise figure and 15 dB of gain, minus the loss of the 4 way splitter, gives 8 dB of boost on the outputs. You don't mention waht you are going to do with it, use it on your antenna system maybe? If so, it should work pretty well, I use a similar unit to ampilify some of my UHF channels with great results.

Mallego

navyblue2000

09-25-07, 07:34 AM

Yeah, right now it's amplifying my antenna system. I have standard cable + cable internet, cable TV is going unamplified to 2 TV's. Funny thing is all this time I thought I was connecting with the amplifier until I got back up there to move the cables around - turns out I was watching unamplified the whole time, LOL. It's pointed towards cincinnati (I'm ~20 miles away, to the E/NE, but I get some dayton channels which are due North of me).

DM2006RI

10-17-07, 10:54 AM

I had a question for the experts: I'm using a Channel Master CM 4228 with a Titan CM 7777 pre-amp. I go from the pre-amp (powered unit) and split the signal to my two TV sets, results are good but I'm wondering if I added an amplifier (like the CM 3043) and got rid of the splitter that I would see any additional benefits on "fringe" stations, which come in intermittently.

Is there any benefit from using an amp in conjunction with a pre-amp in this instance?

Rick0725

10-17-07, 11:19 AM

adding a distribution amp is not suggested.

in most cases the cm7777 has enough gain to handle signal and the losses from normal splitting . In the general sense, if there is a very long run in your set up say over hundred feet, a distribution amp of appropriate gain can compensate for losses associated in the cable on that run.

in regards to actual signal...it is best to improve the receiving antenna in those cases. adding the distribution amp can make matters worse.

mamaduce

10-20-07, 08:06 PM

A pre-amp will definitely help. Since you're in Killeen, that's close enough to pick up the Austin HD signals (unless your southern line of sight is obstructed). I read some other posts about reception being good in the 80 mile range, but pre-amp was needed.

All the Austin HD signals are currently on UHF. But in 2009 when the analog is gone, KTBC (FOX) will move the digital signal over to VHF Ch. 7.

So it's good that you got a VHF/UHF antenna.

Directv finally came out and replaced my dish and removed most of the splitter and diplexers. It took a while but finally got a tech who would do a attic drop to run 2 lines direct from the antenna to my two receivers. All my local and Austin local came in fine on my hd dvr receiver, but on the hd receiver my local and austin pbs channels flash in and out. All my other local and austin channels come in just fine. They come in for about 4 or 5 seconds and go out over and over again. Any suggestions

aktick

11-14-07, 03:51 PM

dj4monie

11-14-07, 07:32 PM

arxaw

11-16-07, 10:48 AM

Looking for an antenna for OTA HD that will connect to multiple DirecTV receivers. It will most likely be placed in the attic. Here's the antennaweb.org info for the location...what specific antenna(s) would you recommend trying? Thanks a lot.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y271/aktick/untitled-2.jpg
A Channel Master CM 4221 4bay bowtie antenna (http://warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4221.htm) should work well. It is small enough for attic installation and not expensive.

Many of your stations are in opposite directions. To make the CM 4221 bi-directional, try removing the wire screen on the back, if you can't find a good direction to pick up all the stations.

If you connect to several TVs, you may need a good preamp. The CM 7777 (http://warrenelectronics.com/antennas/7777.htm) is a good one. But amps can overload the signal, which can make digital reception worse. So don't add one unless you find your signal strength is too low.

Wireman134

11-27-07, 07:27 PM

I so enjoy this forum. Allot of helpful information here to say the least. I've got my OTA setup in the attic, which consists of a DIY DB4 4 bay, combined with a AntennaMaster Y5-2-6 for my VHF. They are joined with a UVSJ that has like .3-5db loss and the VHF side passes DC for a preamp. I get 99% of the Chicago OTA channels in my area with this configuration thanks to all you guys. All my digital channels but two are broadcast on UHF, WBBM-DT 2.1 ch.3 and WWTO-DT 35.1 ch.10. After the analog shutdown some stations will go back to VHF high band so I will be keeping the VHF antenna because it pulls in the VHF high just fine. I have a chance of getting a older Blonder Tongue Horizon III VHF preamp that has 300ohm/300ohm (in/out) hook ups. As I want to increase the channel 3 signal from 25% that doesn't stay locked 24/7. My question is, will the voltage from the power inserter make it to the preamp on the mast, through a balun properly, baluns are passive bi-directional devices and should pass DC correct? I do expect some loss through the balun though but all i need is a little boost to get VHF channel 3 locked tight. Any help would be appreciated. :D

Rick0725

11-28-07, 11:58 PM

Wireman134

11-29-07, 12:23 PM

If ch3 is received poorly you are better off using a higher gain vhf antenna instead of screwing around with the marginal signal with your current antenna. too much amplification (you are already getting 99% on ch 2) will screw everything up.

run 2 separate coax into the home from each antenna

amplify both antennas separately and appropriately. With a higher gain vhf antenna you may be able to get away with not amplifying vhf and only amplifying uhf. If you are less than 30 miles from the towers use winegard hdp269 preamps.

combine the antenna signals after the preamps inside and then split signal to the devices

this will result in less conflicts and more flexibility

Rick0725, thanks but I'm not getting 99% signal strength, I stated 25% signal for WBBM-DT channel 3. As far as a higher gain VHF antenna I can't fit anything bigger in my attic and the Y5-2-6 Yagi has a high gain and is cut for VHF low band. Both antennas are connected to quad shield RG6 no more than 60' total length. I do not need to amplify the UHF 4 Bay I have as I'm getting 50-85% signal strength on all the UHF digital channels. Just a little boost in VHF band is all I need. :D

cansatfan

11-29-07, 02:28 PM

Have usable signals on the North and South side so I plan to use a rotor...how does the HTL-HD handle the auto scan function when I perform it a number of times in different antenna positions?

Landlubber

11-30-07, 12:58 PM

holl_ands

11-30-07, 03:30 PM

As background, I recently purchased an HDTV to replace our old CRT. We don't have cable or a satellite. Right now all I have is a Radio Shack 15-2187 HD antenna sitting in my attic pointing in the general direction recommended by antennaweb.org. The "power injector" that came with the antenna is connected directly to the TV. According to antennaweb we are about 50 miles from most of the LA station transmitters. Despite the stated limitations for this antenna, we have excellent digital and OK analog reception of nearly all stations (Channel 13 seems to be the lone exception.).

My question is this:

I am wondering if I can use this antenna to serve the other small TV's (none of which are HD) in the house. My house was built prewired, so all the cabling comes to a logical distribution point in a downstairs closet. Are there splitters and/or amplifiers that I can use without degrading the signal too badly?

If I have oversimplified my situation or left important considerations unstated, please let me know. As the title says... :o
You didn't say where in L.A. you are located (nearby cross streets???).
If you are "too close" to outlying TV stations (e.g. Simi Valley, Riverside areas), you may have
overload problems using a Preamp or Distribution Amp.

If not, try the W-G HDP-269 VHF/UHF Preamp, since it has very high overload resistance.
The Preamp module should be located as close as possible to the antenna and the Power Insertion
Module can be located either in the attic (needs 120V AC power) or in your wiring closet,
followed by a 4-Way (or whatever) RF splitter(s).

Landlubber

11-30-07, 04:44 PM

Thanks for the quick response. Sounds relatively easy, even for a knucklehead like me.

For the record, we live 50 miles EAST of LA (Loma Linda).

holl_ands

11-30-07, 08:54 PM

Thanks for the quick response. Sounds relatively easy, even for a knucklehead like me.

For the record, we live 50 miles EAST of LA (Loma Linda).
A Preamp or Distribution Amp in your Loma Linda location can be difficult.
High power KVCR-TV and KVCR-DT are 6-7 miles due South and lower power KSGA-LP is only 2-3 miles S-W.
Fortunately, they are somewhat suppressed, due to being off to the side of the antenna.

You should first try no preamp and an RF Splitter.
Then you could try adding the HDP-269 and RF Splitter and see if you gain or lose any stations.

Then you can insert a small attenuator BETWEEN the antenna and the Preamp to see if you gain
or lose any stations.
An RF Splitter is handy, cuz it has about 3-4 dB of loss, thereby reducing the intermod distortion products
by a factor of three: 9-12 dB. IMD products only affect certain channels and not others:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6163454&highlight=spurious+dynamic#post6163454

Pick whichever works the best....

cpcat

12-04-07, 10:25 AM

Pics of two horizontal quads (DAT 75's and Triax UNIX100A's) for those who might be interested.

Current preamp is the Sitco PA24.
Combiner is a Lindsay quad uhf combiner.
Spacing is 27 inches.

Landlubber

12-04-07, 05:24 PM

Thanks, holl_ands. I now have some experimenting to do.

holl_ands

12-04-07, 06:09 PM

For anyone trying to follow this multi-threaded exchenage, I posted a
signal level analysis response to your query in the New To OTA Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=611957&page=3
Nearby KSGA is preventing reception of KCOP-DT....
Careful antenna pointing and chicken wire "fence" is first thing to try.....

Landlubber

12-05-07, 11:08 AM

Nourdmrolnmt1

12-06-07, 11:52 PM

okay, i need a good indoor antennae, i cant get ANYTHING on the stupid Terk i bought.

my situation from antennae web.

* yellow - uhf WVPX-DT 59 ION AKRON OH TBD 225° 27.7 59
* green - uhf WDLI-DT 39.1 TBN CANTON OH 225° 28.6 39
green - uhf W51BI 51 TBN KIRTLAND OH 351° 5.6 51
green - uhf WVPX 23 ION AKRON OH 225° 27.8 23
red - uhf WBNX 55 CW AKRON OH 278° 22.4 55
red - uhf WOIO 19 CBS SHAKER HEIGHTS OH 278° 22.4 19
* red - vhf WOIO-DT 19.1 CBS SHAKER HEIGHTS OH 278° 22.4 10
red - vhf WJW 8 FOX CLEVELAND OH 274° 23.5 8
* red - uhf WJW-DT 8.1 FOX CLEVELAND OH 274° 23.5 31
red - vhf WKYC 3 NBC CLEVELAND OH 278° 22.1 3
* red - vhf WKYC-DT 3.1 NBC CLEVELAND OH 278° 22.1 2
red - vhf WEWS 5 ABC CLEVELAND OH 276° 23.6 5
* red - uhf WEWS-DT 5.1 ABC CLEVELAND OH 276° 23.6 15
red - uhf WOAC 67 SAH CANTON OH 199° 19.5 67
red - uhf WVIZ 25 PBS CLEVELAND OH 271° 24.9 25
blue - uhf WUAB 43 MNT LORAIN OH 277° 23.7 43
blue - uhf WQHS 61 UNI Cleveland OH 277° 22.7 61
* blue - uhf WQHS-DT 61.1 UNI Cleveland OH 277° 22.7 34
blue - uhf WNEO 45 PBS ALLIANCE OH 159° 37.8 45
blue - uhf WEAO 49 PBS AKRON OH 231° 28.5 49
* blue - uhf WBNX-DT 55.1 CW AKRON OH 278° 22.4 30
violet - uhf WKBN 27 CBS YOUNGSTOWN OH 133° 39.3 27
* violet - uhf WEAO-DT 50.1 PBS AKRON OH 231° 28.5 50
violet - uhf WDLI 17 TBN CANTON OH 189° 36.9 17
* violet - uhf WUAB-DT 43.1 MNT LORAIN OH 277° 23.7 28

Rick0725

12-07-07, 09:45 AM

stations coded red and and above are going to be a challenge for most indoor antennas...you can try a radio shack model 15-2187. if it does not work you can return it. You will at least have a feel where you stand reception wise in your home.

Your market has network stations in the high and low band VHf which are difficult to receive indoors to begin with under favorable conditions. Rabbit ear and squareshooter style antennas therefore would be out of the question there. All uhf are more "forgiving" reception wise.

If not successful with the above rs antenna, you may be SOL for indoors.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2348191&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&parentPage=familyyou .

you are going to need a combo vhf / uhf antenna based on your channel profile...a uhf antenna alone will not suit your needs unfortunately.

a winegard hd7082p combo minimum mounted outside with an hdp269 preamp may work. hd7084p would be better.

holl_ands

12-07-07, 04:17 PM

I understand rotating my antenna to improve KCOP/minimize KSGA. Can you give me a better idea of what to do with the chicken wire? See my post at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=611957&page=3.
Chicken wire is commonly found in stucco walls, where it greatly reduces indoor signal levels.

You can also use it in your attic to reduce the signal level coming from KSGA.
It acts as an electromagnetic "mirror", reflecting KSGA's signals away from your antenna.

A "wall" of chicken wire can be strung up between the antenna and KSGA.
It should be about 6-8 feet high (measured vertically) and at least 8-12 feet wide.
In your case, you might want to extend it further to the "left" in order to also reduce
signals coming from analog KVCR & KVCR-DT (6 miles, 193 degrees).

To minimize antenna perturbations, keep it away from the antenna (6-8 feet away is best)
and make sure it doesn't come close to the line-of-sight towards Mt Wilson.

Staple it along the sloping ceiling starting at the highest point and as you get closer
to the narrow spots you could simply let it "hang" down vertically.
Obviously rafters are going to get in the way so you'll have to figure how to work around them,
such as using "strips" of interconnected sections with only small "holes" for the rafters themselves.

It can conform to the shape of the attic if you want or you could string it perpendicular to the
line between antenna and KSGA...doesn't really matter. And doesn't have to be "straight and even".

And it doesn't have to be connected to a ground wire, but you can if you want to.

Sorry I don't have (as Arlo Guthrie would say):
"27 eight-by-ten color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph
on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence"....

Landlubber

12-07-07, 07:49 PM

Your description is clear enough that I understand what I need to do. And thanks for bringing back fond memories of "Alice's Restaurant".

Appreciate your help.

Glenn.

dk2nv

01-18-08, 11:30 PM

Everything was good till I decided to wire correctly. I have an U-75R from Radioshack: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103088&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&parentPage=family It worked great on the stations below when it was mounted outside and connected directly to my TV. No it is fed to a distribution box and spit to two tvs. The signal seems very weak overall and fox will not work. Do I need a different antenna or a pre-amp? I also thought about moving the antenna into the attic, so there is less clutter outside at the dish.

The dish installer thought he could diplex this feed with the TV2 output from the DVR. When this was done, there was nothing from the stations below. Was this because he can not do this with diplexers or because the signal was too weak.

Thank you.

* yellow - uhf WCJB-DT 20.1 ABC GAINESVILLE FL 148° 20.1 miles 16
* yellow - uhf WGFL-DT 28.1 CBS HIGH SPRINGS FL 175° 9.8 miles 28
* red - uhf WOGX-DT 51.1 FOX OCALA FL 154° 32.7 miles 31

holl_ands

01-19-08, 10:08 AM

dk2nv

01-19-08, 10:39 AM

Outside I have 5 cables coming in. Two for each 622 and one for the UHF antenna. All five cables go to a structured wire panel. From this panel I have three cable to the master bedroom (DVR # 1) and living room (DVR # 2). The plan was to use two cables for the sat feed and the third cable would be diplexed to carry the second TV and UHF signal. The second TV is set to channel 60. Does this sound like it would work? To try to narrow things down I removed the diplexers and did not hook up the TV2 output. So basically I had the two sat feeds and one UHF feed to each 622. With this setup the signal is very weak. Hope this is detailed enough. (I was thinking there was too many splitters and line connections (connection at antenna, where it enters the house, in the panel its split, at the diplexer in the panel, at the diplexer at each 622, and back to the panel.)

dk2nv

01-19-08, 01:07 PM

ok. So I found a little 10db amplifier in the garage and hooked it up. I now have decent sighal strength on the two tv's in questions. Now I need to backfeed TV2 from the master br. Should I diplex the TV2 feed with one of the sat lines or with the UHF line?
Thanks. DK

holl_ands

01-19-08, 01:22 PM

Since you have MORE than enough cables, it would be better....and simpler if you did fol:

1. Run antenna to a splitter which feeds each room---one OTA coax per room.

2. Use a coax pair to each room for each Dish Receiver.

3. When that works, to add TV2 distribution, check out Example 4 (without Dish Pro Separator)
or Example 8 (with Dish Pro Separator, e.g. Dish1000/1000.2, one less coax):
http://www.solidsignal.tv/dishpro_installation.asp
Note diplexers "backfeed" TV2 UHF signal to location of Super Home Node for distribution.

The Dish Super Home Node (e.g Eagle SHN-24) is an amplified 4-Way splitter designed to
redistribute TV2 UHF via OTA coax (dishstore wants way too much):
http://www.dishstore.net/product_info.php?products_id=138
http://www.appliedtel.com/Site/Shop/ProductView.aspx?prdID=1505
[You may...or may not...find that a passive splitter will sort of work...temporarily...]

If your Dish has an internal multiplexer (i.e. is compatible with a Dish Pro Separator),
another similar option is also possible:
4. Use Example 8, except eliminate the Diplexers and run the CH2 UHF signal
direct to the Super Home Node on the coax freed up by using the Separator.

PS: You are WAY TOO CLOSE to 5 MW A-WGFL to use a Preamp.
I would usually recommend going to a lower TV2 UHF channel, but after looking
at your location via www.tvfool.com, the best open channel I could see with no strong
adjacent stations are CH46 & CH57, which may have slightly less cable loss than CH60.

dk2nv

01-19-08, 02:38 PM

I ended up using example 3. I diplexed the TV2 with one of the sat feeds. This allowed me to have a single line for the UHF (no worries of broadcasting). Thanks for your help. I noticed that when I disconnected the masterbr sat feeds the coax arced. Why is this? Is this safe for the tv's? I have noticed that WGFL does appear to have a little more noise in it with the amp, but without it I can not get WOGX to come in clear. Thanks again.

holl_ands

01-19-08, 02:45 PM

i have everything working! Thanks for your help. I noticed that when I disconnected the masterbr sat feeds the coax arced. Why is this? Is this safe for the tv's?
SAT Receivers output DC power up the coax to the SAT dish.
You should power down before swap....

holl_ands

01-22-08, 09:14 PM

You'll reach a much bigger audience by posting this question in the ANTENNA thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=381623&page=220

cpcat

01-26-08, 11:05 AM

MAX HD

01-28-08, 10:20 PM

Just FYI for this thread Research Communications now has a new line of HDTV preamps with the addition of much needed surge protection. I have the 9254/9255 combo and it's excellent. The additional surge protection hasn't altered performance in any way that I can tell. RC continues to make the best performing wideband uhf preamp available for long distance reception IMO. The only drawback has been ruggedness/reliability which presumably should now be improved with the addition of surge protection.

The wideband version (9254) is also excellent for high band vhf but requires that you add your own front-end filtering in most situations. I use the hi port of a hi/lo combiner (Pico).

http://www.researchcomms.com/hdtv.html

Another recent entry from the top of the heap.This one is a dedicated Broadcast quality low-noise DTV preamplifier for the most discerning buyer.And,it even comes with a 24V power supply! All for the low,low price of 499.00.Sounds like a bargain to me.Click n scroll...

http://www.tonercable.com/Product.aspx?ID=1615

cpcat

01-29-08, 06:55 AM

All for the low,low price of 499.00.Sounds like a bargain to me.

Looks interesting. Trying to empty my wallet?:)

bozey45

03-23-08, 05:35 PM

What is the sure-test to see if the 7777 is working properly???? I have a 91-XG with the 7777 and still can't pull in channel 40 analog or its digital 52 from a distance of 43 miles. From all I've heard about these two OTA products i should be able to pull at least the analog on 40. It comes in very snowy and seeing their coverage map at the FCC website their coverage area i guess its grade B goes all the way to northern Hillsborough County, just a few short miles south of us. I don't have a rotor yet but have tried the antenna in various positions, used a compass, tilted the 91-XG and still can't get channel 40 worth a crap. There has to be something amiss in this set-up and I can't figure what it is. I have RG-6 coax, all the coax is on the right inputs on the 7777, the switch is on "combined" on the 7777; the only thing this goes thru is the lightning block and that makes no difference because I bypassed that and still nothing. The 7777 really changed nothing at all on the set-up, everything looks basically the same. There is also a LP channel 30 in Tampa that I get better without the pre-amp than with and even with the pre-amp it should not overload being an LP 24 miles from here. The full power locals are perfect, digital and analog. is it the fact that I DO need a rotor or is it the 7777 OR even a lousy tuner on the set?? It's just that when i read all these postings about the 91-XG and 7777 being used all over the place pulling in stations 50-70 miles away with no problem, I feel something is amiss here. I asked in the local Tampa HDTV forum if anyone else uses the 91-XG and no replies after 3 weeks. If anyone has half a clue what the problem could be please fill me in.

holl_ands

03-23-08, 07:22 PM

Antenna thread is better place for this question.
Also need you location (zipcode, preferably nearby cross streets)
Or post your Analog & Digital results from www.tvfool.com

donnyjaguar

03-24-08, 04:30 PM

Hey Bozey, you may have the same problem I do. I'm getting sacked by the "local" stations at 23 miles making my more distant stations impossible to get. I think I found the solution, posted on the other thread, but its not for everyone.

bozey45

03-24-08, 04:57 PM

Which thread are you referring to??

donnyjaguar

03-26-08, 10:50 AM

See Official AVS Antenna Topic near the bottom.

Tower Guy

03-30-08, 09:00 PM

For most of you, the VHF low-band channels (2-6) are being discontinued after the Feb. 2009 transition.

Have you actually counted? It's possible that there will be more DTV stations on channels 2-6 after February 2009 than there are today.

holl_ands

04-07-08, 02:25 PM

Why don't you count 'em and let us know:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-06-1082A2.pdf
This list is dated May2006, with only a handful of later additions.
Unfortunately, later DTV Channel Election lists don't include
all three NTSC/DTVNow/DTV2009 columns.

Let me get you started:
Only Eureka in far northern California elected to use Low-VHF.
49 states to go....

holl_ands

04-07-08, 03:48 PM

Since the link has been broken, I'm reposting the fol. BALUN LOSS test.

Since I no longer have access to a room full of test equipment, I had to improvise when I
had this collection of baluns and wondered which one had the lowest loss, esp. after I saw fol:
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/balun.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html

Most cable boxes have ability to display received signal level for currently tuned channel.

I found a "reference" balun by connecting two (matching) baluns back-to-back and dividing
loss by two (it was also my lowest loss balun). From there I could measure loss in all the others.
Inherent measurement accuracy is about +/- 0.5 dB.

BTW: I was surprised to find a D.C. SHORT on coax port of both Outdoor Baluns
from Channel Master...one came with CM-4228, the other was on-line order.

Falcon_77

04-07-08, 08:17 PM

Unfortunately, later DTV Channel Election lists don't include
all three NTSC/DTVNow/DTV2009 columns.

Let me get you started:
Only Eureka in far northern California elected to use Low-VHF.
49 states to go....

That was my impetus for creating the spreadsheet (link below).

There are 40 slated to be on Low-VHF. 37 had elected Low-VHF, but 3 were recently added to the list (WUOA, KIVV & KIDA).

As best as I can determine there are 29 now, with only one on 6 at 0.1kW. With 9 stations to be on 6 next year, I fear they are flying into the dark. 16 of the current 29 Low-VHF stations are baling out of the band.

16 stations are also moving DTV operations from UHF to Low-VHF in '09. Many of them are in for a shock.

See the VHF-LO DMA tab on my spreadsheet for more info.

Tower Guy

04-07-08, 08:39 PM

There are 40 slated to be on Low-VHF. As best as I can determine there are 29 now, with only one on 6 at 0.1kW.

16 stations are also moving DTV operations from UHF to Low-VHF in '09.

I'd postulate that the surprise will be that channels 5 and 6 won't be as bad as channels 2 and 3. Like you found out, there is no high power DTV channel 6 that is currently on the air. Therefore there is no good test case.

I have two reasons for my feeling.

The first is that noise drops about 1 db per channel. This means that the man made noise on channel 6 will be about 4 db lower than channel 2. This factor is well known and documented.

The second reason I have not seen published. It's due to the interaction with the receiving antenna with the ground in front of the antenna. Ray tracing programs show that an antenna at 30' on channel 2 has a main lobe that is steered upward by 8 degrees and has a response at +1 degree that is 14 db below the main beam. The same antenna on channel 6 is steered upward by 5.7 degrees and is down by 10 db at +1 degree.

The combination of the two factors indicate that, on average, DTV reception on channel 6 should be 8 db better than channel 2.

Do you think that 8 db is enough extra power?

holl_ands

04-08-08, 12:14 PM

Falcon_77:
Where's the "below" link????

Dave47

04-08-08, 12:34 PM

BTW: I was surprised to find a D.C. SHORT on coax port of both Outdoor Baluns
from Channel Master...one came with CM-4228, the other was on-line order.

I can't say what is in your baluns, but some have every terminal shorted at DC. Those baluns could be wound like transformer style H:

http://www.minicircuits.com/products/transformers.html

David

AntAltMike

04-08-08, 12:47 PM

I can't say what is in your baluns, but some have every terminal shorted at DC. Those baluns could be wound like transformer style H:

http://www.minicircuits.com/products/transformers.html

Ditto for style K in those drawings.

Can anyone post the drawing from the ARL book showing a very common 75 to 300 ohm balun that uses a tapped transformer and therefore has conductive paths between all ports? I haven't seen it in a few years, but it's been there through successive revisions.

A few years ago, when I was tryng to make my own ground loop isolator using back-to-back baluns. I was surprised to learn that more of the ones I had lying around conducted DC from an input path to an output path than did not.

Dave47

04-08-08, 01:27 PM

Ditto for style K in those drawings.

True, but Minicircuits only sells K as a 1:1. :)

I have some other styles here on my bench at work, but they are in excess of $600 each. Still, they have all ports shorted at DC.

David

Falcon_77

04-08-08, 04:03 PM

Falcon_77:
Where's the "below" link????

In my signature.

My concern as respects channel 6 is adjacent and co-channel FM interference.

holl_ands

04-08-08, 08:38 PM

In my signature.

My concern as respects channel 6 is adjacent and co-channel FM interference.
Hmm, somehow the Display Signature box in my UserCP was unchecked
(I'm sure this was working not too long ago)...
I also found it in your Public Profile. Thnx.

holl_ands

04-08-08, 08:48 PM

I can't say what is in your baluns, but some have every terminal shorted at DC. Those baluns could be wound like transformer style H:

http://www.minicircuits.com/products/transformers.html

David
Designing a Balun with a simple DC blocking capacitor prevents shorts.
NONE of the other Baluns had a DC Short.

I consider it to be a potential problem if someone decides to bypass the Preamp,
or if a user has no clue what happened to DC voltage on a shared TV/SAT cable.

Dave47

04-08-08, 10:27 PM

Designing a Balun with a simple DC blocking capacitor prevents shorts.
NONE of the other Baluns had a DC Short.

I consider it to be a potential problem if someone decides to bypass the Preamp,
or if a user has no clue what happened to DC voltage on a shared TV/SAT cable.

I agree with you, but someone decided to build 1 million of them and save $0.02 per balun on the caps. He then reported a cost savings of $20K to his management and got a fat bonus at the end of the year. :D

My blocking caps double as bias tees, are rated to 20GHz, and are completely necessary.

David

AntAltMike

04-08-08, 10:47 PM

For the purposes of overdrawing current from a pre-amp power supply, any balun that has a conductive path across its power input side for all pratical purposes "shorts" the power supply.

For the purposes of hum isolation, baluns with a vexing conductive path from the input to the output are often said to have a "Short" from the input to the output, and while the path through the inductive conductor isn't really any "shorter" than a path through a capacitor might otherwise be, the effect of that path is often to complete a path to a resistive antenna load that "shorts out" the power supply.

seatacboy

04-09-08, 11:31 AM

Gathered up some recommended antennas, boosters, etc... for OTA HDTV reception...... I try to keep separated different antenna types & categories for different uses/needs... Any other models to recommend or those listed to comment on?

Special thanks to AVS Member holl_ands, Wendell R. Breland & videobruce for additions & updates. Given the influx of newcomers to DTV asking about indoor antennas, could a separate sticky thread be created for this specific topic?

degarb

04-16-08, 04:45 PM

nybbler

04-17-08, 11:44 AM

Junglerock

04-17-08, 03:41 PM

Last year I replaced an old wore out rotor with a CM 9521A. Whilst I was on the roof I noticed the old Radio Shack antenna was shy a few elements and decided I should replace it too and a year later I'm fixing to do just that. Anyway I picked up a 91XG and a YA 1713. I also got a TB-105 support bearing.

The bearing appears to be made for 1.5" mast. I've got three 5' masts laying around and they are all 1.25" in diameter. Where can I find 1.5" mast or do I need to send the bearing back for something smaller? I checked Radio Shack, and all they had was 1.25".

By the way the bearing is made in China (like just about everything else) and doesn't appear to be very good quality, but what do I know?

degarb

04-18-08, 09:00 AM

What is the opinion of the Monster power strips' effect on ota dtv reception? What about generic versions?

Also, I am cloudy as to what clean power can do, and if those have the rg6/59 filter.

donnyjaguar

04-22-08, 10:13 AM

Is there a filter to filter out the light switch noise, the blender rf, etc? I am thinking at converter box, since the line out from filter might pickup RF. I was also wondering if shielding all connectors with foil duct tape might help.

Also, I have had no luck with the kmart/walmart amps with dtv. Only the 60$ amp for mast antenna.

Generally this type of interference is as a result of the receiving antenna being too near the source of the interference. This is especially true if you are talking about an indoor antenna. Putting a proper outdoor antenna up will help not only putting distance between the antenna and interference, but increasing the level of the TV signal such that the interference will have less effect.

My thoughts on power conditioners are they shouldn't be necessary. I don't find the need for them myself. If your power is dirty you need to get with your power company and complain. Not sure where you live, but they are obligated to serve up the appropriate voltage to your house without noise, brownouts and surges. All of which can damage your equipment.

onan38

04-24-08, 09:26 PM

HI everyone i have a new u100 alliance rotor that i want to use on a outdoor antenna installation and noticed it has 4 wire connectors on the rotor and the control box where can i buy the wire at. Thanks

holl_ands

04-25-08, 02:17 AM

http://www.summitsource.com/philips-rotator-cable-75-ft-5-wire-rotor-cable-ph61422-automatic-directional-outdoor-offair-tv-antenna-connection-part-ph61422-p-6703.html
http://www.summitsource.com/rotator-rotor-cable-75-ft-5-wire-magnavox-m61422-automatic-directional-outdoor-offair-tv-antenna-connection-part-m61422-p-5442.html

WeThePeople

04-27-08, 08:29 PM

I had an occasion to update something in my setup recently and something odd happened that surprised me.

I had a pair of saddle brackets on the side of my house holding a short five foot mast with a large boom style VHF/UHF antenna/rotor combo. I came across a solid twenty foot piece of galvanized pipe.

I never liked the way the saddle brackets wiggled in the wind anyway...

I picked a location and stood it up, grabbed my favorite sledge, and headed up to the roof. I pounded that puppy well into the ground and remounted all the original stuff.

I had mearely lifted the set off the top of the original mast and set it down on the roof. Opposite routine onto the new mast.

The downlead is hefty quad-shield RG-6 straight down into a spark arrester just above the (Physical) ground with a six foot copper ground stake into the ground five feet connected with a very short ten gauge solid core wire stub.

So grounding has never been an issue, but local interference has been.

I used it for a few days with the same results. It occurred to me I now have a ground rod driven at least four or five feet into the ground posing as a mast, so I eliminated the spark arrester at the base moving it to the top of the mast. Remember, this isn't some thin mast pipe. It is a very thick gavanized pipe. Certainly good enough to choke spikes/strikes to ground.

The downlead was just long enough to connect into the house were the short pigtail from the ground rod / arrester used to without modification.

I directly thru-bolted the spark arrester to the pole just under the rotor to eliminate the ten gauge pigtail jumper. I used the original RG-6-QS pigtail from the bottom to bridge the top from the arrester to the preamp.

ALL noise from taxi's, police, vaccuum cleaners, blenders, EVERYTHING is all gone now.

Sorry for the thorough explanation of steps. But I am missing why this worked so good? I hope all I typed above helps pin it down.

The only difference is that the point of ground was, well, AT ground.
I changed it to the top of what is now a grounded pipe.

Oh, also..I did put a bolt through the pipe just above ground to additionally re-use the ten gauge pigtail and six foot copper pipe pounded a full five feet into the ground just to be sure the task was up to my usual level of overkill.

The wire is currently clamped to the house about fourteen inches from the pipe. I mean to point out here, it is close to some of the electrical noises, not shielded by the pipe. So although some capacitance coupling is occurring from wire to pipe here. It shouldn't be enough to warrent the extreme noise rejection results.

I plan to poke two holes top and bottom to fish the downlead through just to keep me busy, and cap the top to keep rain from filling it. But that can only improve shielding...right?

Ideas why this worked so darn good?

onan38

04-30-08, 10:03 PM

I am currently installing a Winegard HD-7084P and a channelmaster 7777 preamp,The antenna came with 50ft of Rg59 cable,Would this be ok to use on less than a 50ft run on 1 tv or would i need to use Rg6 cable?

cpcat

05-01-08, 07:03 AM

Use a short piece of rg6 from antenna to preamp. Using rg59 from the preamp to tv is probably ok. However, you only do it once (in most instances anyway). I'd probably still run rg6 quad-shield at least indoors to the first splice if you can spring it.

Junglerock

05-17-08, 11:24 AM

From post #962

Well... exactly 1 month later I've got my antenna's up. The TB-105 bearing from Warren Electronics is NOT high quality. There is about 1/4" play within the bearing. The center of the bearing has flash in it which has to be sanded off if you intend to use 1 1/2" mast. I ended up buying a 10' piece of electrical conduit and cutting it in half. (seems to be stout enough)

The biggest problem is that the bearing sticks out from the mast somewhere between 1/4' and 1/2 " farther than the rotor which puts a serious bind on the rotor. I ended up having to make spacers to make the rotor match the bearing. The rotor works, but still has a little bind in it. When I have a chance to get back on the roof, I will further "tweak" the "spacers".

The good news is I am extremely pleased with the 91XG and a YA 1713 antenna's. I can now get a solid lock on KXII DT-20 (12) that tvfool shows to have a signal of -126.1 (2 edge) at 99.5 miles. :D

Tower Guy

05-17-08, 11:59 AM

The good news is I am extremely pleased with the 91XG and a YA 1713 antenna's. I can now get a solid lock on KXII DT-20 (12) that tvfool shows to have a signal of -126.1 (2 edge) at 99.5 miles. :D

Some of that may be due to tropo enhancement. This picture of Friday should be good for several hours.

http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tr_map/archive/6eam.jpg

Junglerock

05-17-08, 10:02 PM

Actually years ago I used to pick up channel 12 (Sherman) regularly, sometimes a little snow but mostly pretty good. I didn't watch it much (other than for weather) because it was redundant. But now it is a little more interesting with MYTV 12.2 and Fox 12.3. With my old antenna I could get a lock only at night, but with the 91xg the signal level has been between 4 and 6 (daytime) and 8 and 10 (night). But of course time will tell...

By the way, my antenna sits pretty high being that I don't live too far from Slipdown Mountain (not much of a mountain) but it is the highest point in Parker County at 1368 ft. and also the highest point within the DFW metroplex, so that helps.

videobruce

06-07-08, 10:22 AM

I'm looking for a UHF DA (distribution amp) with a very high input level capability to use in a mixed signal enviroment. VHF is a non issue.
I have a mix of very strong and very weak signals in the same direction, hence the problem. It's been partially solved, but I'm looking for more leeway.

Preamps are pretty much out for two reasons;
1. The inability of being able to handle high signal levels and
2. The need to have it indoors since I have traps (filters) installed in an attic to tame those stronger signals and have no need to have a remote PS.

I see this Winegard HD269 preamp was mentioned;
http://www.audio-video-connection.com/product/HDP-269

But again, I really don't want or need a two piece preamp (with an additional two F ports and the additional related signal loss to deal with.
The DA I have now is a now discontinued Winegard DA-1018 which is good, far better than a Blonder Tongue MUVB-25 it replaced, but I'm hoping that something better is available.

MAX HD

06-07-08, 11:57 AM

videobruce

06-07-08, 12:20 PM

As in this;
http://www.mjsales.net/items.asp?FamilyID=501&this_Cat1ID=273&Cat2ID=75

Thanks for the offer, but the gain is way too high and the input level is way too low. Even the TA-12 isn't that great;
http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/B/B13.pdf

Amps with that high gain usually have low input capibility.

cpcat

06-07-08, 04:41 PM

channelvision cvt-15pia

http://www.channelvision.com/pdf/product/instruction/CVT/RF%20Amplifiers/CVT15PIA-ins.pdf

The lowest noise figure in-line amp I've come across. I use it as a post-amplifier indoors after a 20db gain research comms amp on the mast. No problems with overload in my configuration. Gain is 15db.

EscapeVelocity

06-08-08, 12:28 AM

I have an xg91 with a channel master 7775 amplifier connected with old DirecTV cable about 100 ft long, but I only need about 25 feet, up on a 1 story roof which is overhung by a massive oak tree. Antenna is approximately 25 ft off the ground attached to the chimney and a large tin roof covers the whole house. I have a treeline about 50 yards out and Pecan trees left and right with a small window towards the towers which are all together within 4 degrees most of them are at 45 miles, a couple closer to 25 miles. Flat marsh land and open ocean between me and the towers.

Im not happy with the reception. I get frequent drop outs sometimes.

What can I do to improve this setup?

EscapeVelocity

06-08-08, 12:34 AM

Im thinking a shorter cable for the run, which may be in better condition as well. What type of cable should I look into?

cpcat

06-08-08, 09:23 AM

RG6 would be fine.

If you have D* and aren't using the H20-600 you should be. The OTA tuner is excellent.

videobruce

06-08-08, 09:40 AM

cpcat; What kind of signal levels are you talking about? That is another example where the input level isn't specified (which doesn't help me in this case).
How close s the nearest xmitter tou your location?(for the millionth time)
Not to me Rick.
In spite of what you think about my current Winegard DA-1018, it does work and far better than what it replaced (BT MUVB-25). I'm just looking for a little more edge, but I don't want to take a step backwards. Can that amp be powered from internally w/o going through the coax?

cpcat

06-08-08, 09:57 AM

cpcat; What kind of signal levels are you talking about?
How close s the nearest xmitter tou your location?
Not to me Rick.

In spite of waht you ahve side in the past, my current DA-1018 dos work. I'm just looking for a little more edge, but I don't want to go backwards. Can that amp be powered from internally w/o using their power inserter type PS in line (as in a direct, internal hard wired connection, not through the coax)?

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any max input level specs for the cvt-15pia. I'm at >65 miles to most of my transmitters but do have a full power PBS at around 45miles and a full power religious channel at 40 as well as full power CBS at 50. I use the hi port of an HLSJ at the antenna right before the RC amp so local FM is virtually eliminated. I'm also using a Blonder Tongue mwt-u notch filter set to trap the local analog religious channel right before the cvt-15. Finally, I use a variable attenuator after the cvt-15 and right before my tuners to tweak the final input level as "wide open" I still get a little overload at the tuner (not the amp).

I wouldn't worry about the loss of a power inserter if I were you either way. I use an HLSJ to insert power wherever possible as I don't need/want any lowband or FM. This means placing the HLSJ after the amp, attaching the DC power source to the "low", the "common" to the amp output, and the "hi" to the tuner. You could also put another UVSJ or HLSJ on the amp's input if you want to prefilter the signal further. You could alternatively use a UVSJ as the power inserter after the amp similar to above assuming DC is passed on its vhf side.

Looking at the HDP-269 specs, it may be a better choice for strong signal environments than the cvt-15.

EscapeVelocity

06-08-08, 06:29 PM

I think Im gonna try a Winegard 4400, in place of the xg91. I put a DB2 up there and it seems to be holding its own against the xg91.

Scratches head.

EscapeVelocity

06-08-08, 10:20 PM

When aiming the xg91, I was getting better reception moving towards the eastern trees that frame the shot towards the towers in Charleston, until I ran into them, then it dropped again, so Im hard up against the Eastern trees, just off of them. Ill take a compass up there and check, Antennaweb has the towers at 62 to 65 degrees magnetic north.

How do I get my tvfool image to this message board?

jtbell

06-09-08, 12:07 AM

How do I get my tvfool image to this message board?

First, if you haven't already done so, save the image to your hard disk. On the tvfool results page, you should be able to just click on the image and a menu pops up with an option to save it.

Then, when you post a message here, at the bottom of your message-composition page you should see a box "Attach Files" with a button named "Manage Attachments". Click that button, and you'll get another window where you can navigate to your saved image and upload it.

EscapeVelocity

06-09-08, 12:33 AM

Here it is. :)

Im concerned with the first 8 channels listed minus channel 19. They are all clustered in the same direction (and location), excepting for channel 16.1 WJWJ PBS which I am picking up fine on the backside. I am having particular trouble with 36.1, 4.1, and 7.1 in that order.

I could conceivably move an antenna into the giant oak tree(dont really like this idea), or to another location on the roof.

videobruce

06-09-08, 09:00 AM

if your current situation with 18 db causes issues with a dozen filters1. I have 7 traps,
2. 18db isn't a 'high' gain amp. That 36db that the other poster mentioned is.
3. I'm feeding four tuners. I need the gain to make up for that loss and the low signal coming in.You may not need all your current filters when all is said and done.You do realize that I'm dealing with three stations with 45-50 dbmV signal levels (analog) and four more with levels between 30-35 dbmV (digital)? Then consider that I'm looking at signals I can't even measure (less than -35 dbmV).

cpcat; You have nothing even remotely close to you, so there isn't anyway you would be bothered with overload.

AntAltMike

06-09-08, 10:14 AM

Published amplifier input specs are of only limited usefulness in selecting one to meet an individuals' needs for a number of reasons.

First of all, with many consumer products, especially Winegard and Channel Master, they seem to have just taken old figures of arbitrary limits for keeping sync compression or intermodulation distortion developed by analog signal inputs under certain thresholds, but use them as limits for contemporary applications. Second, often times the input specs don't even say what channel load they apply to.

It is common practice among newcomers to the residential antenna amplifier manufacturing market to specify a level at which some kind of intermodulation distortion is developed. Some manufacturers actually say it is the 3rd Order IMD level, others just say IMD. As I understand it, an intermodulation distortion benchmark, if properly used, is the input (or output) level at which a single digital channel develops some undesired, on-channel intermodulation byproduct that is 40 dB below the signal (-40dBc) on itself. I have also read in a report linked way back in this thread somewhere that when a signal develops -40dBc of 3rd Order IMD on itself, it tends to develop -52dBc of 3rd Order IMD on adjacent channels, so that tells me that when I am trying to process my local Baltimore channels 38 and 40, but am plagued by a much nearer and stronger Washington DC channel 39 that is commonly nearly 20dB stronger than channels 38 and 40, that the intermodulation developed will excessively degrade the channel 38 and 40 signals before it reaches the -40dBc overload spec.

When you put different frequency signals into an amplifier and they also are at different signal strengths, it is impossible to calculate all of the undesirable intermodulation byproducts that are developed, but certain of the weaker signals will fall victim to the debilitating effects of that distortion. And making matters worse is that the tuner may get swamped by the stronger out-of-band signals as well.

I don't know Videobruce's situation, but if he has seven filters in series before his antenna signal hits his amp, he may have so much insertion loss that the biggest problem that his weakest signals face is that the cumulative insertion loss may be dropping his weak signals too close to the thermal noise level. Does he have a real signal meter, such that he can report his actual signal levels in dBmV both before they enter his filtering network and after?

FWIW, I bought a couple of inexpensive Channel Master OSD0065 23dB UHF/16dB VHF preamps and compared their effect on some a very weak analog channel 24 and digital channel 59 signals to that of an uncommon Winegard item, its model AP4747, which is a 23dB gain UHF preamp that is nearly identical to the AP4700 and AP4800 and should have the same maximum output of those two products. I had a couple of 20dBmV analog inputs and a couple of 10 dBmV digital inputs as my strongest signals, but my weak inputs were an analog channel 24 that was around -5 dBmV, and the digital channel 59 was, as I recall, perhaps around -25 to -30dBmV.

The UHF gain was 23dB in all four amplifiers tested, as specified, which actually surprised me because the gain of a Winegard AP4800 is actually 36-38dB at about 500-530 MHz, whereas it is about 28dB at around 700 MHz, but the AP4747 gain was flat across the entirre UHF band.

The manufacturer's published maximum output figures for the AP4700 and AP4800 exceed those of the Channel Master OSD0065 by about ten dB, yet the Winegard preamp visibly decimated the weak analog signal and degraded the weak digital signal such that the primitive "%" signal meter in my set top box deemed it to be inferior, while the Channel Master preamp sustained the analog picture quality and the digital signal "%" went up just a little. And my input and output levels were well below the rated maximum signal levels for either product.

I can rule out the possibility that the Winegard signal processing problems were caused by out-of-band tuner overload because I then hand-tuned a UHF bandpass filter and put it on the preamp outputs, but that did not improve the Winegard's performance. I was able to improve the Winegard AP4747's performance somewhat by placing the tuned BPF on its input, but that was a poor solution because the BPF had about 4dB of insertion loss, and I couldn't sacrifice that much input, as that additional antenna signal loss would render my system vulnerable to atmospheric signal fade.

AntAltMike

06-09-08, 11:24 AM

I see from another thread that Videobruce deals with signals measuring from +25 to -38dBmV. If those are the signal levels measured where they first become available for processing, and if they are measured correctly (using an analog signal meter undervalues the digital signal strength by about 8dB), he is in deep doo-doo.

His earlier post mentions having six "sleeve" type filters in series. FWIW, I just had Gamco make me up twenty UHF highpass filters and twenty UHF lowpass sleeve type filters, and the insertion loss was typically 4dB, which is something that a cable company can live with, but since I was pairing them to form bandpass filters, the combined loss of typically 8dB was insufferable.

Videobruce might get his best results by starting with the unfiltered downlead going into the 12 dB preamp, then putting in the notch filters on the output before further amplifying, as needed. Or if that fails, he might try notching just his strongest, then try notching his strongest two, then his strongest three local channels before entering the 12dB preamp and then notching the rest on the output side of that initial preamp before hitting the second amp. That will keep his weak signals as far as possible above the noise floor.

EscapeVelocity

06-10-08, 11:52 AM

Here are some pics of my setup and environmental situation.

The antenna is facing NNE. Im getting best reception hard up against the Eastern vegetation in my window of opportunity.

EscapeVelocity

06-10-08, 12:05 PM

Its a jungle out there!

EscapeVelocity

06-10-08, 12:10 PM

I was thinking about moving the antenna forward to the front of the top roof, so I can get a free shot more Eastward than where it currently is. I think Ill unhook the xg91 and hand hold it, see where I may be able to get a better signal on the roof. I wish I had a meter! I might have to get one, my Vizio doesnt have a signal meter.

cpcat

06-10-08, 03:44 PM

Beautiful live oak and your surroundings in general for that matter.

bozey45

06-10-08, 04:54 PM

thats a great looking live oak you have there. We have 4 large oaks, 2 front and 2 back. My 91 XG is on a 30 ft. telescoping mast so I have the antenna angled up 15 degrees or so to get above the front oak; Orlando digitals come in pretty well at 70-85 miles with the 91xg aimed away from our locals and towards Orlando; the CM7777 doesn't overload on locals this way.

videobruce

06-11-08, 08:18 AM

Rick; -35.6 to -52 at what reference? dbm?
-35dbm is only +14 dbmV which isn't anything. I'm talking +50 dbmV or +1 dbm at the high end and below -40dbmV or -88dbm at the low end.
Does he have a real signal meter, such that he can report his actual signal levels in dBmV both before they enter his filtering network and after?Yes to both Mike.

I understand a broadband amp is not the correct choice. Up to now, it is an improvement over what I had. It is basically working except for the very, very weak channels of which two more digital stations air up and running in the past week from Toronto. I will look into a band stop filter cutting off everything below 174 MHz.

AntAltMike

06-11-08, 12:06 PM

...I will look into a band stop filter cutting off everything below 174 MHz.

The highpass side of a typical UVSJ attenuates the VHF low (2-6) and FM by about 40dB with an insertion loss of about half a dB, so unless you suspect that you have some strong midband interference, I doubt that you would benefit from a midband (sub 174 MHz) trap, which probably has a dB or more of insertion loss.

What do you measure your total, seven filter insertion loss of the weakest channels to be?

videobruce

06-12-08, 09:11 AM

I do have two FM xmitters 1.5 miles away. And the usual 2-way stuff, but I doubt that is any issue.
C&E out of E. Syracuse NY has a bandpass filter that cuts off under 174 MHz for $16 I was considering.

I will take measurements and post.

videobruce

06-13-08, 10:28 AM

Ok, received and tested the Winegard HDP-269. results as follows (compared to the existing Winegard DA-1018);

1. No apparent difference in input capibility,
2. Doesn't handle my signal mix any better,
3. Since gain is 6db less than what I have, there was a noticeable difference on one digital channel whereas the 269 lost the signal, the 1018 didn't,
4. I removed all filters and the 269 didn't preform any better,
5. Tried just filters for the three strongest analog stations and the 269 didn't perform any better, in fact it might of been worse,
6. I added all seven filters and confirmed that both amps were about the same,
7. W/O the filters, two analog channels that were full quieting were completely gone. Not even blanking bars could be detected,
8. With the three analog filters, those stations were there, but very noisey,
9. AFAIC, FM isn't a problem, the 1018 has a switchable FM trap that I don't see a difference if it is 'in' or 'out'.

To answer Mikes question, regarding filter loss, depends on what channel you are asking about. Outside the filter skirts, the overall loss is around 2db. This was using a Spectrum Analyzer w/ a tracking generator.

The SLM I'm using does read digital signals, but there is nothing that states the word 'digital' anywhere. It is from Satvision, the SM-2002. Holland (and others) sell a similar meter (same case, different menu) for more $$.

AntAltMike

06-13-08, 11:34 AM

2dB signal loss is very small for a seven filter series. I'd say the only thing you can do to further enhance your reception of the weak distant signals you desire is expensive antenna work, and even then, the results can't be guaranteed. You might as wait until the analogs get shut off before you spend anymore money.

videobruce

06-13-08, 02:09 PM

I'm going to replace the downlead with RG11 (about 20-25') which will also eliminate a barrel connection that was need to extend the line further.

I was going to try a 4248, but after looking at Channel Master's own field tests, the 4228 had greater gain, narrower BW and greater F/B ratios on most of the channels. This was in spite of Bob Chase's own tests of the same antennas that showed 2db greater gain on the upper UHF portion.

I orginally was going to wait, but a couple of new developments in this area changed my mind, but now I'm back to plan A. ;)

videobruce

06-13-08, 02:41 PM

I had the cable, I just need the connectors (hence the other question).

Falcon_77

06-16-08, 12:22 PM

Are there any reports of overloading pre-amps from MediaFlo on 55?

Also, for the future, I'm concerned that pre-amps such as the 7777, we be overloading with even greater regularity. In my case, while the local TV stations are at 51 miles, I've got a cell phone tower within line of sight, about 3/4 of a mile away. I'm pretty certain it will have something in the 52-69 range after the transition, which will render my pre-amp unusable.

On the bright side, the channels that require me to use the pre-amp will be moving back to upper VHF. They should fare better than they have for their 52+ assignments, with interference from analog adjacent channels.

ctdish

06-16-08, 01:32 PM

From looking at cell antennas, cell phones use vertical polarization which will show up on horizontal antennas with cross polarization loss of about 20 dB. They are also running lower power than a TV station. I would guess about 10-20 watts per caller.
John

Tower Guy

06-16-08, 05:05 PM

Are there any reports of overloading pre-amps from MediaFlo on 55?

I have not heard of that yet.

MediaFlo sites are limited to 50 KW ERP. They usually look for tall TV towers. The sites are placed 20-30 miles apart, so they do not use the typical 200' cell tower unless a low power repeater is needed for a dead spot.

AntAltMike

06-16-08, 07:00 PM

Are there any reports of overloading pre-amps from MediaFlo on 55.

In Ft. Belvoir, VA, the channel 55 signal coming in off the WNVC analog 56, digital 57 antenna is at least ten dB stronger than the weak channel 57 digital TV signal. That isn't enough to cause an overload, but it does give me one other problem. The channel 56 analog is converted to VHF channel 13 using a heterodyne converter, but that device also performs, "unintended conversion" of digital channel 55 into broadband noise on analog channel 12, making it look like hell, so I had to replace the analog 56 to 13 heterodyne converter with a demodulator/modulator pair.

700 MHz lowpass filters (LPF-700) that can cleany scrape off a troublesome channel 55 signals are commonly available for about $20 or so.

300ohm

06-26-08, 02:43 AM

I just got my Channel Master 0264 preamp from Solid Signal. (with channels 12 and 6 coming back in Feb, it was the model that made sense for me). It came with absolutely no manual or even quick install instructions.

Does anyone know how to adjust the supposed adjustable FM trap in it ? Under the cover there is a switch for the FM trap that reads IN or OUT. But I dont see anything that is a tuneable type adjustment.

Edit: Under bright sunlight, I did find a tiny yellow adjustable pot. But it was covered with that stuff to prevent movement. Is this the adjustment ?

mclapp

06-27-08, 12:54 AM

fajitamosaic

06-27-08, 01:36 AM

Advice needed regarding pre-amp for an indoor antenna...

Here's the situation: I live in a basement apartment. In the living room, we can easily place an antenna in the window, no problems there. In the bedroom, we can't, our best options are atop a bookcase or a doorframe away from the window.

I know set-top-box signal indicators don't mean much, but what we're getting right now is 2 to 4 bars (out of 10) for a couple channels, and 1 to 2 bars for a couple others. The "stronger" channels actually come in with few dropouts, while the "weaker" channels register a near-constant weak signal message with the rare appearance of a frame or two of image.

I've tried a few different antennas and numerous placement locations within the room. We've hit upon what we think is the best antenna and placement (atop a doorframe, hah!). Now, I'm to the point where my brain is going "hey, maybe amplification is what's needed!"

We'd just like to boost everything, in the hopes that these weak channels will finally come in.

I'd like to buy something locally if possible, and not overspend on something with 4 to 8 outputs when all I need to do is amplify the signal to one set-top-box. Radio Shack sells an in-line amplifier for $40+, which is a little more than I'd like to spend. Local Ace Hardware has the Channel Master 3044. Decent price at $27, but four outputs seems like overkill...

We have Radio Shack, Ace, Truvalue, Wal-Mart, Meijer, Menards, Best Buy, and Circuit City around here, among others.

Suggestions???

300ohm

06-27-08, 02:01 AM

Radio Shack sells an in-line amplifier for $40+, which is a little more than I'd like to spend. Local Ace Hardware has the Channel Master 3044. Decent price at $27, but four outputs seems like overkill...

The Radio Shack one for $40 is pure junk. I ascertained today that it is exactly the same one I bought a decade ago for $18.99. Even when it was working right, no amplification was noticed. It makes too much internal noise of its own, and in some cases, can cut signal.

The Channel Master 3044 is a distribution amp. Unless your splitting the line to various TVs, youre mostly going to amplify noise.
Channel Master makes the lowest noise preamps that are commonly available. But they start at about $45 plus shipping.

But the thing is, if you cant get a decent signal with a short cable from the antenna, any amp is going to mostly amplify noise. Preamps are used to compensate for line, splitter, balun etc losses. (and help with the tuners noise figure too, depending on the set)

I would say, keep looking around for some creative antenna placement.

300ohm

06-27-08, 02:20 AM

It should be right next to the FM trap switch it is a small round trimmer capacitor. Mine has a line pointing right to it that says tunable trap

Thanks mclapp.
Ill look for the line. Its so tiny I thought it was pot, but may be a trimmer capacitor, which makes sense. And it has that adjustment glue all over it.

On to adjusting it.:p

My problem is I have two strong FM stations, 92.9 and 94.7mhz about 1.5 miles from me. They are about 90 degrees away from the direction of my channel 6 TV station 82-88mhz, 61 miles away -87.7dbm (2/19/09 digital TVfool).
Many years ago, they caused very strong interference on channel 6 analog. But they must have done something, because the interference has lessened over the years.

I have no RF testing equipment. To fine tune the FM trap, I plan to hook up the preamp to rabbit ears and output to an FM radio tuned to those stations. Then adjust for maximum attenuation. (Since they are strong stations, that may not even be humanly possible) And hopefully, I wont affect the gain on channel 6.

Sound good ? Any other suggestions ?

Also, does IN mean the FM trap is ON and OUT mean the FM trap is OFF ???:confused:

Digital Rules

06-27-08, 06:45 AM

YES!!

"IN" is "ON" & "OUT" is "OFF"
Do you have any impulse noise issues with channel 6 at that distance?

300ohm

06-28-08, 04:08 PM

Do you have any impulse noise issues with channel 6 at that distance?

Impulse noise ? How would you define that ? A long time ago, I did get modulation crosstalk from those FM stations, which was very plain to see, but those FM stations seemed to have resolved that.

What I do get on analog channel 6 right now is a snowy white vertical line on the picture, that moves from left to right at about 3-4 seconds per cycle. Its followed by a much dimmer second snowy white vertical line by about 1/6th of the screen later. (most likely a ghost of the first white vertical line)

But this also happens on my analog channel 3, so its probably not the FM stations. No vertical lines on my analog channels 10 and 12.

I guess Im going to have to investigate the source of that vertical white line, as my digital channel 6 is moving back to real channel 6 in February, and that interference may cause me problems.

bozey45

06-28-08, 05:50 PM

Sounds like adjacent channel; if you have a channel 5 or 7 close by could be the cause of this type of interferrence ; I get a channel 44 here locally and if channel 43, out of this area, isn't pinpointed with my antenna it causes the same thing to happen.

300ohm

06-28-08, 07:08 PM

Nope, no adjacent channels to my channels 6 or 3.

ctdish

06-28-08, 07:54 PM

It does sound like overload. If it occured in an amp it could be from any strong channel.
John

300ohm

06-28-08, 09:35 PM

I get that white vertical line with unamplified antennas. The line is also steady as it scans across, meaning it doesnt modulate as if there was a voice signal on it.

Hmm, I do have a 300 foot State Police tower about a quarter of a mile behind me. I wonder if theyre using any frequencies that are close ?

I also have an Air Force base about 8 miles away, that also does weather sweeps for the local region. I dont recall having the white lines before the invention of doppler radar, and the lines are about 3-4 seconds per left to right sweep across the screen. Hmmm.

Digital Rules

06-29-08, 01:24 AM

Impulse noise ? How would you define that ? . Interference from overhead power lines; or any other man made electrical interference. Does the problem go away when it rains?

300ohm

06-29-08, 01:34 AM

I believe the problem still remains when it rains, but Ill double check on the next rainfall.

ctdish

06-29-08, 12:21 PM

The vertical line sounds like the vertical sync from an analog TV signal which is why I suspected overload. They can also come from another channel 6 on the same channel but that is unlikely. It could also be a ghost.
John

I get that white vertical line with unamplified antennas. The line is also steady as it scans across, meaning it doesnt modulate as if there was a voice signal on it.
Hmmm.

300ohm

06-29-08, 05:30 PM

The vertical line sounds like the vertical sync from an analog TV signal which is why I suspected overload. They can also come from another channel 6 on the same channel but that is unlikely. It could also be a ghost.
John

But the line is also on channel 3, (but not on 10 and 12) and doesnt vary with trophospheric conditions.

But thanks for the suggestion. Its a puzzler. And Im curious to know if a noise like that seen on analog channel 6, will affect the digital channel 6 (real channel 6) in February. In February, without an analog picture to see the noise, something like that may be even harder to diagnose.

nybbler

06-29-08, 10:51 PM

But the line is also on channel 3, (but not on 10 and 12) and doesnt vary with trophospheric conditions.

But thanks for the suggestion. Its a puzzler. And Im curious to know if a noise like that seen on analog channel 6, will affect the digital channel 6 (real channel 6) in February. In February, without an analog picture to see the noise, something like that may be even harder to diagnose.

The reason people are suspecting overload is that for you to get a vertical line, the interference source has to be synchronized with the scan (or almost so), which means it's a TV signal also. So in February, you won't have the same noise.

If the only stations you have on VHF-Lo are 3 and 6, it's barely possible they're interfering with each other.

Tower Guy

06-30-08, 08:48 AM

The reason people are suspecting overload is that for you to get a vertical line, the interference source has to be synchronized with the scan (or almost so), which means it's a TV signal also. So in February, you won't have the same noise.

I agree that the interference source must be an analog TV signal. It is possible that it is an LPTV station that is extremely close. It won't necessarily go dark in 2009. 300ohm lives somewhere near Dupont, DE. There is a channel 14 LPTV station within a few miles.

The intermod/crossmod may be due to interaction between his strong 94.9 FM station and an analog TV station.

Another possibility is two distinct causes. Channel 3 could be a VCR tuned to channel 3 interfering with the off air channel 3. Channel 6 would still be intermod.

videobruce

06-30-08, 10:54 AM

Wendell R. Breland; You have a PM.

300ohm

06-30-08, 12:00 PM

I agree that the interference source must be an analog TV signal. It is possible that it is an LPTV station that is extremely close. It won't necessarily go dark in 2009. 300ohm lives somewhere near Dupont, DE. There is a channel 14 LPTV station within a few miles.

The intermod/crossmod may be due to interaction between his strong 94.9 FM station and an analog TV station.

Another possibility is two distinct causes. Channel 3 could be a VCR tuned to channel 3 interfering with the off air channel 3. Channel 6 would still be intermod.

Yep, that channel 14 station is about 3 miles away and about 90 degrees east away from the direction of channel 3 and 6. The 94.9 FM towers are about 3 miles away 90 degrees west of that direction. My antenna should have nulls at those points.

Right now, I use the DVR/VCR recorders tuner to get analog on AUX1. Turning off the CECB converter box and changing the TVs tuner to other channels doesnt get rid of that line. So I think the tuner interaction can be ruled out. Good point about it though.

If that interference is caused by channel 14, there doesnt seem to be much I can do about it, is there ??? :( (Curse WPVI for moving back to channel 6 in February, heh. And thank the maker channel 3 KYW had enough sense to stay on UHF.)
And if it is caused by channel 14 analog, would that cause me problems with digital channel 6 come February ?

Tower Guy

06-30-08, 01:09 PM

And if it is caused by channel 14 analog, would that cause me problems with digital channel 6 come February ?

Yes.

But 3 miles away from an LPTV station that you are aimed away from it is not likely to cause preamp overload.

I suspect that filtering out the strong FM station on 94.9 is a good first step. You may want a separate FM filter in addition to the one in your new preamp.

300ohm

06-30-08, 11:59 PM

Yes.

But 3 miles away from an LPTV station that you are aimed away from it is not likely to cause preamp overload.

I suspect that filtering out the strong FM station on 94.9 is a good first step. You may want a separate FM filter in addition to the one in your new preamp.

Yep, the condition existed long before I even got the preamp. Just to make sure the preamp wasnt overloading, I hooked up the uhf antenna line with preamp directly to the analog TV. Channel 14 analog wasnt overloading, just ghosting, (because the antenna is 90 degrees to it). Another FM filter may be a good idea. Any suggestions for one that wont affect channel 6 ? Also, anything like a filter for channel 14 ?

Another thing I realized, both VHF antennas I have are uhf/vhf combo antennas. Maybe removing the uhf part of them or a strict vhf only antenna would help ? For the uhf antenna, I have my DBGH, which is working great, pretty much get all the stations I can reasonably expect and then some. (I even get WTVE-DT, -115.9dbm per TVFool at 85-90%)

My TVFool after transistion - 6/27/2008 TVFool update :
(Most of my stations have increased their projected KW transmitting power by a lot, in some cases more than quadrupled power, giving me 3 to 9+ more dbm in gain than was projected in the March 2008 TVFool chart. :) )

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/6923/radarall2afterfeb627200aw2.png

300ohm

07-01-08, 01:04 PM

Rick0725, thanks for the links, that may do the trick.

The large vhf/uhf combo I have is about 20 years old and is one of those log-periodic split 30 degree vee boom models. Its strong on pulling in Vhf stations, but has always been very miserable for uhf. The uhf elements consist only of a zig zag log periodic elements in the front and a straight single boom forward set of directors. Im planning to take it down this summer and clean it up and repair some of the broken vhf elements that birds have knocked off.

EscapeVelocity

07-03-08, 12:09 AM

Are these Motorola amplifiers any good?

http://broadband.motorola.com/catalog/product_documents/BDA_Catalog_Specifications_112305_with_return.pdf

GaAsFET
2.5db Max noise
15db gain

300ohm

07-03-08, 01:16 AM

For a distribution amp to 4 sets, it looks fine. But from the antenna to it, you would still want a preamp mounted close to the antenna for long runs of cable.

Unless youre thinking of mounting it up there close to the antenna and running four separate lines down ? It doesnt look all that weatherized. If youre thinking four lines of coax downleads (or even one) from one antenna, I would put it in some kind of weather proof box in that scenario.

EscapeVelocity

07-03-08, 01:39 AM

Attic mount?

EscapeVelocity

07-03-08, 01:58 AM

Thanks Rick and 300ohm.

cpcat

07-03-08, 07:10 AM

EscapeVelocity

the amp you showed us is a 15 db distribution amp used to amplify losses associated with long cable runs. .

Looks to me like you could use it as a preamp if you wanted to. GaSFets are notoriously fragile though when it comes to long term reliability.

The advertisement says "indoor/outdoor" but I'd still probably mount it under the eave.

The 2.5 db NF rated to 1ghz might well indicate somewhat better performance in the uhf band.

Depending on the cost, you could consider Research Communications for GaSFets as well.

300ohm

07-03-08, 07:25 PM

The advertisement says "indoor/outdoor" but I'd still probably mount it under the eave.

Yep, or in the attic with a short run to the outdoor antenna. But I wouldnt have an attic antenna with it, it kind of defeats the purpose as youll then be amplifying noise.

Smoke_signal

07-05-08, 04:26 AM

Having recently obtained a Zenith DTT901 converter box and receiving zero DTV stations in the foothills some 58 miles from the nearest metro area, I bought a Channel Master 4228 UHF antenna and a 7777 preamp. I now unreliably pickup all 9 DTV stations from the metro area, but only some of the stations some of the time. Now I need to buy a second 4228 antenna and stack two 4228 antennas and hope to gain adequate signal reliability. I doubt the changes in Feb. 2009 will improve the situation much, except for 2 stations which will go to VHF from UHF. I'm not waiting until the middle of winter to work on an antenna system. (Who the heck decided to change to DTV in MID-WINTER anyway!?:eek:) I will need a combiner with low insertion loss. Does anyone have any experience or opinion on the use of the following low loss splitter/combiners for antenna ganging?

Radio Shack 2-Way Gold-Plated Bidirectional Splitter
http://www.radioshack.com/sm-2-way-gold-plated-bidirectional-splitter--pi-2103924.html

Acoustic Research PRO II (PR-430) 2GHz 2-Way Video Splitter
http://www.araccessories.com/pro2_splitters_2way.html
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2435255

Monster Cable TGHZ-2RF - 2 GHz Low-Loss 2-Way RF Splitter
http://www.monstercable.com/productdisplay.asp?pin=663

Monster Cable SS2RF Standard 2-way RF Splitter
http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Monster-Standard-RF-Splitters-For-CATV-Signals-SS-2-RF/sem/rpsm/oid/8413/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

RCA - 2-Way Digital Splitter Model: DT2SP
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=5433854&st=splitter&lp=5&type=product&cp=1&id=1051826213337

GE 2-Way Video Splitter
http://www.target.com/GE-2-Way-Video-Splitter/dp/B000W454MI/sr=1-4/qid=1215250355/

300ohm

07-05-08, 10:55 AM

Now I need to buy a second 4228 antenna and stack two 4228 antennas and hope to gain adequate signal reliability. I doubt the changes in Feb. 2009 will improve the situation much, except for 2 stations which will go to VHF from UHF. I'm not waiting until the middle of winter to work on an antenna system.

What is your zip code, so we can see the TVFool on it ? Im 61 miles from my main group of stations and get 39 DTV channels reliably, even the -114.0 and -115.9 dbm ones, also using a Zenith DTT901 .

Things will be better in Feb for at least three reasons, 1 - most stations are going to increase kw power, 2 - less interference from analog stations, 3 - the trees shed their leaves in the fall.

Also, is the 4228 pointed at trees by any chance ? UHF signals are really hurt by trees, a lot more than VHF. If so, the 4228 bowtie and the Hoverman style antennas are generally better for catching a signal thru trees than the 91xg corner reflector yagi types.