(Who the heck decided to change to DTV in MID-WINTER anyway!?:eek:)

Folks in DC make decisions based on February weather in northern Virginia, since most of them live somewhere around McClean or Alexandria. February is about the only month out of the year when the DC metro is livable.

Folks in DC / NVA area tend to be a bit like Californians: oblivious to the fact that there is a different world beyond the horizon.

My understanding is the date was chosen because it is after the Super Bowl, and thereby will minimize the number of death threats they receive for messing up the television signal. I think they have seriously underestimated the number of death threats they will receive for screwing up the NCAA basketball tournament for those few stations that really have trouble.

My understanding is the date was chosen because it is after the Super Bowl, and thereby will minimize the number of death threats they receive for messing up the television signal.

Its also after the elections, so the people in DC think theyll have plenty of time to fix the problems before 2010, and we wont remember. :p

For a lower loss stripline combiner with better phasing characteristics contact here:
http://www.hamtv.com/oal.html

I would also agree that yagi/corner reflectors are easier to stack but I've seen/heard of pretty good results with vertical CM4228 stacks.


Also, is the 4228 pointed at trees by any chance ? UHF signals are really hurt by trees, a lot more than VHF. If so, the 4228 bowtie and the Hoverman style antennas are generally better for catching a signal thru trees than the 91xg corner reflector yagi types.


The 4228 also receives VHF ch 7-13!

Yes, I've got trees and hills everywhere. Extra height is difficult and expensive to achieve and I would suffer loss through a long cable run. Extra height doesn't seem to make much difference here in the hills. I need more antenna gain. It's cheapest just to spend $70 including shipping for another 4228. I am just going to use 3/4" ID (1 1/16" OD) galvanized pipe which I already have lying around for a mast. It's heavy, but strong. The trick will be bracing it against a flimsy mobile home. But, temporarily I will use a 3-way right angle fitting to connect three 10 ft 3/4" pipes together, all at right angles in the xyz-planes, which will form a stable two-leg support stand for a 10 foot upright mast set on the ground. The 2 legs at right angles can just wrap around the corner of the mobile home. All of the stations are aligned on the same axis so I don't need a rotator. And that includes a second metro area 110 miles away in addition to the 58 mile distance metro area which may give me one additional VHF DTV station in February if I am lucky (forget the UHF stations).

I don't see a OAL stripline combiner for UHF/VHF applications, and they are expensive. I guess I will try a RCA 2-Way Digital Splitter DT2SP first. At a 3.5db insertion loss, they are as good as any available. The GE and AR splitters are identical except for the gold plating on the AR, and they don't give any loss specs.

For analog VHF I only needed a cheap amplified indoor antenna. This government VHF snatcheroo is going to cost millions of rual folk 100's of millions to keep the TV from going dark in the dead of winter. When the government sells off those frequencies to the pigs who set this whole fraud scheme up, they should be forced to pay compensation to all those who spent fortunes on new antenna systems by including the money in the sales price. Those frequencies were already in use by millions. Are there going to be that many who will benefit from the profit-greedy frequency thieves?

I am just going to use 3/4" ID (1 1/16" OD) galvanized pipe which I already have lying around for a mast. It's heavy, but strong. The trick will be bracing it against a flimsy mobile home. But, temporarily I will use a 3-way right angle fitting to connect three 10 ft 3/4" pipes together, all at right angles in the xyz-planes, which will form a stable two-leg support stand for a 10 foot upright mast set on the ground.

With something like that, I would guy wire it too.

At a 3.5db insertion loss, they are as good as any available.
Keep in mind, the most theoretical gain you get with ganging 2 antennas is 3db. In real life, if you get 2.5 db gain, youre doing excellant. If the antennas arent ganged right, youll get little to no db gain.

In your situation with trees and hills, antenna placement is everything. Higher doesnt mean better. Try various heights and at various locations until you find a hot spot. Also try angling the antenna up slightly or pointing to the top of the hill.

Whats really needed in mountainous regions is many many repeater type stations.

This government VHF snatcheroo is going to cost millions of rual folk 100's of millions to keep the TV from going dark in the dead of winter. When the government sells off those frequencies to the pigs who set this whole fraud scheme up, they should be forced to pay compensation to all those who spent fortunes on new antenna systems by including the money in the sales price. Those frequencies were already in use by millions. Are there going to be that many who will benefit from the profit-greedy frequency thieves?

I hate to spoil a good rant, but all the VHF channels which were allocated to broadcast TV before Feb 2009 remain allocated to broadcast TV afterwards.

This government VHF snatcheroo is going to cost millions of rual folk 100's of millions to keep the TV from going dark in the dead of winter.

Someone already shot this down, but they didn't fill in a few facts.

1. The VHF band will still be there (been said).

2. The lower VHF band might as well be sold once ATSC is the only show in town, because 2-6 are virtually unusable for digital OTA. The reason this is is because they accept too much interference.

3. The TV stations, knowing this, are in fact the ones to blame for the flood of channels out of VHF.

What surprises me more than anything is that channels aren't fighting harder for hi-VHF channels. I suspect in some rural areas, a channel in the 7-13 range will prove significantly closer to reproducing its coverage than any of its neighbors. In my area, in fact, several of the upper VHF channels are not keeping their legacy channel, and one is in fact conceding its channel after the transition to a competitor. Go figure.

On the upside, the owners and engineers do seem committed to pressuring the FCC for a boost in maximum power. That's a must, because I think the last 10 miles of many DMAs are being poorly served by the 1000 kw ERP standard with the majority of channels staying on UHF.

all the VHF channels which were allocated to broadcast TV before Feb 2009 remain allocated to broadcast TV afterwards.Except in markets where the low band (say around 95%) and the high band (I bet at least 25%) will be turned over for other uses. :rolleyes:

Except in markets where the low band (say around 95%) and the high band (I bet at least 25%) will be turned over for other uses. :rolleyes:
What is to stop other television broadcasters from applying for those licenses and placing their minimally sufficient transmitters close enough to their reception facilities to enable them to develop a "must-carry" signal level at the local metropolitan cable company headends?

What is to stop other television broadcasters from applying for those licenses and placing their minimally sufficient transmitters close enough to their reception facilities to enable them to develop a "must-carry" signal level at the local metropolitan cable company headends?

In fairness, there has never been that much interest from media owners in buying licenses to compel "must carry" status.

Bear in mind the original allocation of channels went from 2-81. 70-81 were sold off to the original analog cell networks. In fact, if you had an old tuner you could listen to analog cell conversation.

The FCC did such a huge allocation because they had initially expected the push for TV licenses to be as strong as there was for radio licenses. They allocated 2-81 because they realistically expected 20-40 stations in each market back in the early 1950s.

Instead, it was until almost the mid-1990s that it was common for a market to have at least six networks. Many smaller DMAs still only have the big four.

It is a bit confusing, but the interest in buying transmitters even in the era of "must carry" cable rules just hasn't been there.

The economics of the benefit of owning a transmitter that qualifies for must carry status have changed. Cable penetration goes up every year, more frequencies in the VHF lowband and highband are now apparently open, and each low powered transmitter can now carry and distribute half a dozen crystal clear programs using less transmitter power than the station the analog transmitter would be replacing. A channel 49 from who-knows-where relocated to Washington, DC a couple of years ago and is absolutely unwatchable at present, as its analog channel 49 carrier is weaker than adjacent digital channel 48's full power ATSC signal, but if it becomes a digital channel with say 20dB less signal strength of power than adjacent digital channel 48, it will be suitable in quality at the Washington, DC Comcast headend to produce six perfect subchannels. It has already changed from being a Spanish channel to a hoot of a channel called WUFO. Check out their website at www.tv49dc.com.

This is the future of OTA. Well at least I certainly hope so.

That channel looks fantastic, its like George Norry's Coast to Coast on AM.

A channel 49 from who-knows-where relocated to Washington, DC a couple of years ago and is absolutely unwatchable at present, as its analog channel 49 carrier is weaker than adjacent digital channel 48's full power ATSC signal, but if it becomes a digital channel with say 20dB less signal strength of power than adjacent digital channel 48, it will be suitable in quality at the Washington, DC Comcast headend to produce six perfect subchannels. It has already changed from being a Spanish channel to a hoot of a channel called WUFO. Check out their website at www.tv49dc.com.

This is a shining argument against must carry.

Anyhoo... a low-power station is not a must carry. Thank God. For now, anyhow (the FCC has some genius plan floating around for LP must carry).

I couldn't imagine the crap that would end up on TV if LPs were must carry.

Originally, UHF TV channels started at 14 and ended at 83.
Yep, and dont forget that there originally was a VHF channel 1.

Yep, and dont forget that there originally was a VHF channel 1.



There is a story on channel one and such on the web. Google it i forget its
URL. Something like History of Channel 1 vhf in google

John

Yeah, I had read it quite some time ago while searching thru antique TV sets. :p

Its here : http://www.tech-notes.tv/History&Trivia/Channel%20One/Channel_1.htm


It shows the FCC has a 70+ year tradition of messing things up. :p:p

Yeah, I had read it quite some time ago while searching thru antique TV sets. :p

Its here : http://www.tech-notes.tv/History&Trivia/Channel%20One/Channel_1.htm


It shows the FCC has a 70+ year tradition of messing things up. :p:p

After reading that I don't feel so bad about the impending DTV transition. It looks smooth when compared to virtually killing an entire industry for a whole decade.

What is to stop other television broadcasters from applying for those licenses and placing their minimally sufficient transmitters close enough to their reception facilities to enable them to develop a "must-carry" signal level at the local metropolitan cable company headends?If no one steps forward when the 'elections' were held, doesn't that spectrum automatically get turned over to the FCC (or whomever holds the auctions) for sale?

I purchased MAX HD's previous crank up tower and we just finished installing it at my house Sunday. This setup is mostly for DXing DTV stations, as I'm 3-5 miles from most of the local Indy TV towers.

http://www.wtfda.info/showthread.php?t=2280

Steve

Two Channel Master 4228 antennas ganged together through a Channel Master 7777 preamp and I still can't get a reliable DTV signal. The signals are stronger (when I can get them) with two 4228s over just one, and I may temporarily pick up a few more stations out of the total of 9 available, but as the sun sets, so does the reception. The stations disappear one by one as the stars in the night begin to shine. DTV SUCKS!

I am about to haul the antennas up a steep slope behind my mobile home and attach a temporary 10 foot galvanized pipe mast to a small oak tree to test if a gain of some 60 feet, maybe 70 feet, in height will fix the problem. TVFool says "Line of Sight" requires almost 175 feet of height for all 9 of the stations (125 feet for some.) Changes in Feb. 2009 will only help a little.

As I have stated before, rural America is getting ripped-off by the plan to sell off analog TV frequency spectrum. And I am not the only one saying that proceeds from the spectrum sales need to go to compensating those forced to shell out hundreds of bucks for new antenna systems.:mad:


Boucher: DTV Transition Needs Technical Assistance Component
Congressman Says More Than 10% of His Constituents Would Need to Replace Outdoor Antennas.
By John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable, 6/20/2008
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6572000.html?rssid=193

Digital TV reception a question
Sunday, June 22, 2008
By Bill Toland, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08174/891593-96.stm

I am about to haul the antennas up a steep slope behind my mobile home and attach a temporary 10 foot galvanized pipe mast to a small oak tree to test if a gain of some 60 feet, maybe 70 feet, in height will fix the problem. TVFool says "Line of Sight" requires almost 175 feet of height for all 9 of the stations (125 feet for some.) Changes in Feb. 2009 will only help a little.

You don't actually have to get to LOS. 1 edge or 2 edge reception will usually work with even a single 4228. You're at a spot where you're only getting tropo and diurnal effects. In fact, I'd lighten the rig and go as high as I possibly can with it.

I have stated before, rural America is getting ripped-off by the plan to sell off analog TV frequency spectrum. And I am not the only one saying that proceeds from the spectrum sales need to go to compensating those forced to shell out hundreds of bucks for new antenna systems.:mad:

If it is any consolation, the FCC so far has seemed pretty friendly to granting applications for addition power.

There is a real test coming through the pipeline of their willingness to grants ERP boosts. I forget which station it is, but they're applying for a boost from 1000 kw to 1700 kw on their UHF transmitter. Our local station that is moving to channel 13 (WQED) in Feb recently was granted the right to improve their power from 13 kw to 26 kw.

Hopefully this is all a sign the FCC is waking up to the problem.

DTV SUCKS!

As I have stated before, rural America is getting ripped-off........

I'm sorry DTV is not working well for you, but receiving DTV can be all about location, location and location, whether that relates to weak signals in rural areas because of physical distance or mulipath issues in metro/urban areas due to too much signal. Meanwhile, some viewers in rural areas think DTV ROCKS!!

Last summer I installed a simple UHF antenna setup for a friend in rural Illinois, in the Quincy, IL/Hannibal, MO TV market. Two DTV signals from towers @ 10 miles now provide not only CBS and NBC, but also ABC, Fox and CW (thanks to subchannels) which were not available via analog TV service in this area. Plus, this simple antenna setup now provides most of the St. Louis DTV stations @ 99-107 miles! I'd say these stations are receivable at least 80% of the time. This came as a pleasant surprise. But the terrain from his house does not include any steep slopes, mountains, etc. The antenna overlooks a large field of corn. The antenna is mounted less than 20 ft. AGL. The older model Radio Shack antenna is amplified by a CM 7777.

Steve

The real winners will be the residents of Glendive.

As far as I can find this is the only support bearing and would like to know if anyone has any experience with these as to how well they work and how easy it is to install. Only place I can find that has them is Starke Electronics. If anyone has experience with these please post; thanks.

As far as I can find this is the only support bearing and would like to know if anyone has any experience with these as to how well they work and how easy it is to install. Only place I can find that has them is Starke Electronics. If anyone has experience with these please post; thanks.

I used to use a support bearing like that on a swing-up mast that needed guy wires. I used the CM 9521A rotor at the time. I've attached a pic of the setup. The top of the CM rotor can be seen at the very bottom of the pic and the support bearing is where the guy wires are connected. It worked fine for me.

Steve

As far as I can find this is the only support bearing and would like to know if anyone has any experience with these as to how well they work and how easy it is to install. Only place I can find that has them is Starke Electronics. If anyone has experience with these please post; thanks.

Here is the way I am using a TB-105 support bearing on a Rohn 25G tower. The rotor is a CM 9521A. I went to the hardware store and purchased some zinc plated steel tubing and attached it to the tower legs using zinc plated U-bolts. So far it has held up alright. My original plan was to use a Rohn thrust bearing and install the 9521A inside the tower but doing so proved to be beyond my level of expertise.

See the photo here -

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=77204&d=1173367917

Thanks to both of you for the info; will go ahead and order from Starke this week; also will get the CM4521A rotor; my antennas are a 91-XG and a Winegard HD5030 all channel VHF. Final height will be about 40 ft. i wanted to get a Delhi 306 but there's a tree in the way of using an antenna that long so the HD5030 will have to do--it's done a fine job so far with Orlando channels 2, 6 and 9 that are
80+ miles from here. So thanks again for the info.

The signals are stronger (when I can get them) with two 4228s over just one, and I may temporarily pick up a few more stations out of the total of 9 available, but as the sun sets, so does the reception. The stations disappear one by one as the stars in the night begin to shine. DTV SUCKS!


That is an unusual situation/location. Usually reception is better at dusk and dawn. I would definately try raising the height like youre planning to do.

I have a feeling that for some rural and mountainous regions, that theyll eventually have to put in some kind of repeater type transmitters.

Having gotten good advice on the thread concerning the ROTR100, I'm looking for preamplifier info.

For my situation, I'd like to hear which preamps have provided good results and (maybe even more useful) which would be wise to avoid.

The ROTR100 imposes a preamp power budget of 18 VDC / 80mA.

In my neck of the woods (Zipcode = 01450, from 20 to 50 miles from various transmitters), HDTV is via UHF only. So I'd love to have a product that filters out FM and VHF before they can overload the amplifier or intermodulate with the UHF signal.

Yes, I have seen the list of links to antennas, preamps etc. posted {06-03-05, 07:04 PM} on this forum by RayL Jr. I'll be digging through this and other material on the Web, but it's good hear what's available and working well for you guys today, three years after that post and a mere seven months before analog TV transmission disappears forever.

goldrich; Interesting antenna mount. Why not just use the height advantage of the roof and use a tripod? You also reduce lead in loss.

halfnium; Depending on the terrain in northern Mass., I don't see a need for a preamp with the Boston/Cambridge/Worcester market only 28 miles away;
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp?latitude=42%2E612351&longitude=%2D71%2E558371&magnetic_north=%2D15&range=90&sort=distance&show_expired=True&show_construction=True&show_analog=False&show_low_power=False&action=Show+Stations

Unless you want to try for Providence. You may have a problem with WUTF & WUNI if you use a preamp.

Three Reasons
Winter weather is primarily why I'd prefer to install in the attic rather than on the roof. Noting that videobruce is from Buffalo, NY, where springtime doesn't arrive until mid-June, I guess I shouldn't complain about ice, snow and wind loading on antenna and rotor. But there you go.

Second, the former owner of my house attic-installed an antenna (compound VHF and UHF of indeterminate brand), rotor (Alliance Tenna U-100 or U-110, not sure which) and some ultra-cheesy Radio Shack preamp 20 years ago. Once cable service came up the street, he abandoned this rig. But the downlead co-ax and the four-lead rotor cabling are still in place (so preamp power is easy to arrange). Everything is sealed in the wall.

Third, I pride myself on being a Cheapskate of the Western World. The whole purpose of this exercise is to achieve a quick payback versus continuing to bleed $$ to the cable company (Charter Communications) every month.

I'd like to try attic installation using more up-to-date equipment, including a UHF-only Yagi antenna. If it doesn't work out, I would install on the roof. I am way too lazy to haul the antenna and mounting hardware up to the roof, tie it down securely, figure out how to weatherize the cabling and electronics, and cut a cable feed-through hole in the side of the house if I don't have to. I am shooting for a master's degree in OTA DTV, not a Ph.D.

HDP-269
Getting back to the preamp question, a reading of this forum and videobruce's observations about my locale suggest I need overload tolerance more than high gain. This makes the Winegard HDP-269 look good. It fits the power budget imposed by the ROTR100, too. However, this wide-band preamp does not filter out VHF. I would prefer one with just UHF-band amplification. Recommendations? Other ideas?

However, this wide-band preamp does not filter out VHF. I would prefer one with just UHF-band amplification. Recommendations? Other ideas?

Winegard AP-4700.

However, this wide-band preamp does not filter out VHF. I would prefer one with just UHF-band amplification. Recommendations? Other ideas?

The Channel Master 0064 is a good inexpensive low noise preamp. I have the CM 0264 (same thing but with vhf and uhf inputs) and it does a very nice job.

Winter weather is primarily why I'd prefer to install in the attic rather than on the roof.Absolutely NO issue at all. The Sun's UV rays and winds are the major headaches with outdoor instalations. Snow doesn't bother anything (after all, it's just water). Ice only bothers cheaper antennas with hollow tube type elements, especially the low band. Noting that videobruce is from Buffalo, NY, where springtime doesn't arrive until mid-June, I guess I shouldn't complain about ice, snow and wind loading on antenna and rotor.Funny, you never hear about Watertown NY or Minnesota (for example) where winter is really winter. heavy snows ans sub zero temperatures are the norm. Here, we know Buffalo as the Miami on the north. BTW, last year we had brown grass in June because it was so dry in the spring that arrived in March. I am shooting for a master's degree in OTA DTV, not a Ph.D.Not with a indoor antenna. That only gets you a GED. ;)
If you get what you want with a attic install, more power to you. Using existing cableing might be ok, if there aren't any 'hidden' surprises.

I wouldn't worry about filtering out VHF except for maybe FM.

Ive got a BS, too, videobruce! ;)

OK, I have bitten the bullet and ordered all the stuff I believe I'll need. Once I get the system working, I'll provide a report. Least I could do in return for your observations and suggestions.

Thanks!

What size tower are you going with? :D

(Sorry, I couldn't resist)

-6"

Sounds like a comment a date I had once made. :eek:

After a couple of weeks of clearing brush along the powerline right of way so I can walk up the slope behind my mobile home with my antenna equipment to gain some 60-70 feet in height for my ganged pair of CM4228s and CM7777 preamp, I finally had a chance to see if the increase in height would give me reliable reception to DTV stations located 58 miles away through the foothills and trees.

Things looked promising when I first plugged in the antenna before the sun went down. I received all the primary DTV stations plus some new unviewable weak signals. Then as darkness began to fall, so did the stations begin to go dark until I received NO stations at all! This will really make for a great primetime watching experience... LOST gets lost!

Later in the evening, though, the stations began to reappear, including 2 or 3 new ones over 100 miles away and in Japanese to boot. DTV is totally worthless if I cannot rely on receiving the stations when I want to receive the stations no matter how may stations I might randomly pick up. All I can say is there better be some miracles after the February 2009 transition or there will be rioting and blood in the boonies and cornfields.

I've got 200 feet of RG6 cable temporarily connected to my antenna, but over 50 feet of that is extra and unneeded. The long run signal loss, however, adds little contribution to the widely varying and changing signal strength which can go from very strong to no signal in just minutes. Since the cable length seems to make little difference, I will move the antenna further up slope to see if I can gain another 5-10 feet in height. I will just secure and leave the temporary antenna setup as is until February and see if I can find a cheap used VHF antenna to add to the mast. At least I will have fantastic analog reception which I never had before until then.

I am still waiting for the government to reimburse me for all my labor and costs associatied with this government mandated fiasco. I didn't ask for this. All I want is to be able to watch a few TV programs in peace.:mad:

Smoke_signal

I'm in the hills in NH and the CM4228 didn't do well.

At 24 to36 miles from transmiters in two different directions, lots of 60' to 80' trees and a hill 1000' higher than my house (15' at top) I can't afford the height either.

My current setup is a pair of Wineguard HD-7697P on seperate 15' wall mounted masts CM 7777 preamps with ab switch.(not stacked seperate)

I also had better results than the CM4228 with these.

Radio Shack VU-190 XR (as good as HD-7697P but way bigger)
Radio Shack U-75R (as good as CM4228)

What works for most may not work for all.

I'm still learning and it has cost more than it should have because my location is what it is but i feel good about the thing as a whole.

If you don't need VHF the XG91 might be what you need.

You mentioned powerlines.

Have you tried tilting the antenna up? (didn't work for me)

Are you using google earth to find where the high points around you are?

I found that for me aiming at a hill got better results for WENH than aiming at the tower.

Moving the antenna across to the other side of the house 25' took WGME from weakest to Strongest not at all what TVFOOL suggests.

Hang in there and don't give up.

Have you tried removing the ganged antenna and using just one CM 4228 with the increased height?

Sometimes the ganging works against you.

LOST gets lost!That might a good thing.DTV is totally worthless if I cannot rely on receiving the stations when I want to receive the stations no matter how may stations I might randomly pick up.The problem is where you choose to live, not necessarly the technology.I've got 200 feet of RG6 cable temporarily connected to my antennaYou should of used RG11 with that length of drop. I wouldn'd even considered anything less. Preamp or not.I am still waiting for the government to reimburse me for all my labor and costs associatied with this government mandated fiasco.Why?I didn't ask for this.I didn't ask for seven stations to locate themselves less than 7 miles away that are directly in line of what I want to receive. I just have to deal with it.

Where are you?? Town or Zip? I didn't see any mention of it. It would help if you let us know what you are up against.

Quote:
DTV is totally worthless if I cannot rely on receiving the stations when I want to receive the stations no matter how may stations I might randomly pick up.

The problem is where you choose to live, not necessarly the technology.

The main problem as I see it is the implementation of the technology, ie the signal strength. The often quoted 10 - 15dbm less for digital equaling analog just isnt going to cut it. Drop outs are far, far more annoying than a little bit more snow. I think in the end theyre going to have to increase signal strength in dbm at least to the levels of the previous analog dbm.

Things looked promising when I first plugged in the antenna before the sun went down. I received all the primary DTV stations plus some new unviewable weak signals. Then as darkness began to fall, so did the stations begin to go dark until I received NO stations at all! This will really make for a great primetime watching experience... LOST gets lost!

Later in the evening, though, the stations began to reappear, including 2 or 3 new ones over 100 miles away and in Japanese to boot.

Keep monitoring your reception for a week or so before you come to any conclusions. I occasionally get weird signal fluctuations because of changes in atmospheric conditions (e.g. a weather front moving through). For me, the usual pattern for borderline stations is that reception is worst during midday to late afternoon, improving around sunset, with decent reception through the night until mid-morning.

If you post your results from tvfool.com, they might provide some clues. I get several stations reliably in the 70-75 mile range, with a 91XG (which has a similar range as the 4228), despite not quite having line of sight because of the rolling piedmont terrain.

Don't you guys think I've already tried all kinds of various combinations spending all this time and money????? I doubt the FCC has even bothered to test DTV reception to the extent I've been forced to do.

I first tried a Radio Shack U-75R. It doesn't come close to CM4228 performance and only picks up a few stations at a time for very short periods.

All stations are in the same alignment. I don't need separate antennas pointing in different directions or a rotator.

Two ganged CM4228s give better performance than one... more signal and more stations.

Pointing the antenna up only works for short periods of time as the sun is setting, and differs for individual stations.

Powerlines are NOT a problem My antenna is nowhere near them. EVERYBODY has a powerline going to their home!!!!

RG6 cable is perfectly adequate. The problem is NOT cable loss, but signal strength variation. I can get VERY strong signals, SOMETIMES! The difference between 200 feet and 25 feet of cable is nil as far as performance goes.

If stations would increase power, this would help. I would hope they will be pressured to do so before or shortly after February 2009. TVFOOL shows only modest improvements after February 2009 for my location. If I can't rely on reception of ANY station now, its not going to get much better in February.

When I chose to live where I live, there was no such thing as DTV and everybody was adequately served with analog signals and VHF. The government is shoving these changes down everyone's throat and in the process taking access to public airwaves and services away from many citizens who have relied on them for 60 years. It is the responsibility of the government to first make sure the technology is adequate to continue service to everyone affected. The FCC has failed to adequately test DTV before implementation in real life situations in hills, trees, and rural fringe locations and is simply letting people "drown" without a "life preserver" if they don't happen to fit in the "lifeboat".

I am not alone. See:

For many, digital switch brings in 'can’t-see TV’
http://www.startribune.com/business/25920079.html

At a time when people are suffering from a miserable economy and budget busting price increases, the people don't need the added burden of DTV conversion costs and troubles. OTA TV provides some of the only free and affordable relief and entertainment for many people. A dark screen in the middle of winter only adds further insult and injury. Not all of us can afford or have access to cable or satellite TV. Public airwaves are meant to serve the public, not screw them.

I believe that there is a huge difference between 25ft of coax and 200 ft, smoke, and its worse at higher frequencies.

1 db down per 6ft on average, is what Ive heard.

The ganging is not always ideal, because you have to make sure the feeds are balanced perfectly. But, it was just a suggestion. TV reception OTA is more voodoo than science. Sometimes plainly counter-intuitive things work.

smoke: one thing to consider changing is your stb/digital tuner. the tech is still improving just as analog tuners did.

and you have a point about the cable, but there is still significant loss differences between rg11 and rg6 at that distance, so covering all bases in difficult reception areas is important when troubleshooting.

two ganged antennas are not better than one if your placement overs ill reception; you may just be adding more ghosting problems.

not to get too far off topic, but your wrong on one account smoke

the FCC/gov't has no obligation to provide you with useable airwaves; it is just there to prevent interference and happy coexistence. your real problem is both your chosen residence and your local stations placement or lack of them. it is no different than any other service, sometimes we all live in underserved markets for one item or another. dtv is not worthless, your location is.

public airwaves were never required or meant to provide the public free entainment. private interest that use public airwaves have been require to operate in the public interest while using those airwaves providing timely emergency information, but that is all.

the constitution didn't say, life liberty and the pursuit of free and perfect tv reception. if televison is that important to you, you have to invest accordingly. there are a number of service providers that will assist, and there are more elaborate setups to try. until you have a large tower, ganged cm4251s or other high gain antennas, high end low noise preamps, belkin rg11, and the latest tuner, you haven't invested all the way, so you still have a way to go. some professional assistance with scoping and other measurements would probably help too.

while i feel for your situation - i'm in a similar dead man's area - i don't believe anyone owes you or me anything either. for everyone person that believes the old way was better, there are a hundred of us loving the new way, that is just reality.

200 feet of even really good quality RG-6 coax is about 10 dB of loss at UHF. In other words, you're losing 90% of the signal that's present at the antenna.

Ron

200 feet of even really good quality RG-6 coax is about 10 dB of loss at UHF. In other words, you're losing 90% of the signal that's present at the antenna.

Ron

To clarify, with a preamp you won't lose anywhere near this much.

I use rg11 for a 150 foot run but I'm not sure how much difference it makes with a preamp as long as you're amplifying right at the antenna.

RG11 isn't likely to solve this poster's (smoke signal) problems.

Smoke signal: Be sure the FM trap in the 7777 is "in". You can also try using the hi port of a hi/lo combiner for further filtering.

Also, double check the phasing on the cm4228's. You do this by swapping leads on one of the baluns. One way will be obviously better, the other obviously worse. I'm assuming you are using identical length coax and identical baluns up to the combiner. The cm7777 should be placed as soon as possible after the combiner.

Smoke_signal, I live on the fringe of two markets and OTA DTV has been a godsend here. Many folks who never could get TV at all, or could only get one or two snowy channels (unwatchable at times), are now getting anywhere between two to eighteen very clear DTV channels, and they are pleased with DTV.

Maybe you're living in a DTV dead zone or as someone else said, maybe it's the tuner you're attempting to use. They have improved significantly and there is a big difference in performance between brands.

Free TV is available anywhere in the US with the right equipment. You can always just switch to FTA satellite instead of OTA.

200 feet of even really good quality RG-6 coax is about 10 dB of loss at UHF. In other words, you're losing 90% of the signal that's present at the antenna.

Yep, its about 1 db loss per 18 ft, 5.55 db loss per 100 ft at 700 mhz per the Channel Master product catalog. Lower frequencies have less loss.

the FCC/gov't has no obligation to provide you with useable airwaves;
And they also have no right to screw up existing usable airwaves, (maybe on purpose, maybe by incompetance). Thats not in the constitution or any laws passed since either. Since this is an election year, now is the time to complain.

Smoke_signal; Will you please tell us where you live???
and re-read my last post.

I repeat, I get stronger reception and more stations with TWO ganged CM4228s. I have tested and compared ONE CM4228 against TWO CM4228s and the baluns are in proper phase!!!!! Don't try to second guess me when I have seen the actual results!!!!!!!

I have a CM7777 preamp and, when conditions are right, I get plenty of signal and similar signal response whether I use 25 or 200 feet of RG6 cable despite cable loss. Moving the antenna upslope and higher with 200 feet of cable brings in stronger signals and more stations than having the antenna next to my mobile home with 25 feet of cable! Cable loss is NOT the problem!!!!!!!!!!! When the UHF signal fails to reach the antenna, the cable doesn't make a damn bit of difference!

My problem is SOLELY due to inadequate and widely varying UHF signal strengths over time during the day. My equipment is the best available to consumers and properly setup. My converter box is the latest Zenith DTT901. This is a problem of inadequate UHF signal transmission to cover foothill regions in the local television service area. There is nothing I can do to improve my equipment any further without erecting a huge expensive antenna tower or sending my antenna up in a blimp!

DTV does not serve the public adequately. The switch from reliable VHF frequencies to UHF frequencies is at fault. Unless the TV stations are also required to provide greater transmission power or repeaters to cover the service areas formerly adequately served by VHF signals, DTV is doing much of the public a disservice.

The government mandated this change. And if the government mandates a change, it must be responsible for the problems caused by that change. The mandate was made with inadequate testing. The public had no information and no way of knowing what the result would be until it was too late and converter boxes were available. This problem needs to be addressed BEFORE February 17, 2009!!!!!!

DTV does not serve the public adequately. The switch from reliable VHF frequencies to UHF frequencies is at fault. Unless the TV stations are also required to provide greater transmission power or repeaters to cover the service areas formerly adequately served by VHF signals, DTV is doing much of the public a disservice.

The government mandated this change. And if the government mandates a change, it must be responsible for the problems caused by that change. The mandate was made with inadequate testing. The public had no information and no way of knowing what the result would be until it was too late and converter boxes were available. This problem needs to be addressed BEFORE February 17, 2009!!!!!! Your frustration level is manifest. Perhaps you should write directly to your U.S. Senators and U.S. Representative, as well as to your local OTA TV stations. By no means are you the only person affected by the sloppy flaws caused by the legislatively-mandated transition from analog OTA to digital OTA.

...DTV does not serve the public adequately. DTV serves the public adequately but does not serve the entire population in every location in the US adequately.
NTSC didn't either.

Like I said before, there are still ways for you to get free TV. FTA is one of them.

I repeat, I get stronger reception and more stations with TWO ganged CM4228s. I have tested and compared ONE CM4228 against TWO CM4228s and the baluns are in proper phase!!!!! Don't try to second guess me when I have seen the actual results!!!!!!!

How do you know they are in phase? The easiest way to tell is to physically swap leads on one and confirm that you have a forward null with the antennas properly aimed. Then switch it back. If you've already done this then OK. Just trying to help here.

Cable loss is NOT the problem!!!!!!!!!!!

No argument from me there.

My problem is SOLELY due to inadequate and widely varying UHF signal strengths over time during the day. My equipment is the best available to consumers and properly setup. My converter box is the latest Zenith DTT901. This is a problem of inadequate UHF signal transmission to cover foothill regions in the local television service area. There is nothing I can do to improve my equipment any further without erecting a huge expensive antenna tower or sending my antenna up in a blimp!



Maybe, maybe not. You could be in a particularly difficult reception area or maybe there's still something we haven't figured out yet. Are you inputting to the "uhf only" port on the 7777 or the "combined"? If you are using the combined port, be sure the FM trap is "in". You might actually get better results by using the "uhf only" port and switching the other internal switch in the 7777 to "separate". This will filter most if not all FM but obviously will also filter vhf.

Yep, its about 1 db loss per 18 ft, 5.55 db loss per 100 ft at 700 mhz per the Channel Master product catalog. Lower frequencies have less loss.
.

Those figures apply only when not using a preamp.

Those figures apply only when not using a preamp.
They apply all the time for the coax itself, but the loss in an overall system with a preamp is much different (which I think is what you're trying to say).

The noise temperature Tn of two amplifiers in cascade is the noise temperature of the first plus the noise temperature of the second divided by the gain of the first:

Tn = T1 + T2/G1.

To convert Noise Figure(f) to noise temperature (Tn):

Tn = 290((10^(f/10)) - 1)

The 2.0 dB CM7777 preamp has a noise temperature of 170K at UHF.

Let's say that the Noise Figure of the receiver is 10 dB and the 200' RG6 cable loss is 10 dB for total Noise Figure of 20 dB. The receiver noise temperature is 28710K

Then the system noise temperature for the 2.0 dB NF 26 dB gain preamp is:
170 + 28710/398 (26 dB) = 242K

To convert from noise temperature back to Noise Figure:

NF = 10 log(1 + Tn/290)

So the system Noise Figure with the CM7777 preamp and 200 feet of coax is 2.64 dB. The -0.64 dB difference over 0 feet of coax is almost imperceptible.

Ron

........So the system Noise Figure with the CM7777 preamp and 200 feet of coax is 2.64 dB. The -0.64 dB difference over 0 feet of coax is almost imperceptible.

Ron


Yeah, that's what I was trying to say.:)

Thanks for the excellent (impressive) explanation.

Please do the same calculation for 200ft of RG11 for illustrative purposes if you have time.

DTV does not serve the public adequately. The switch from reliable VHF frequencies to UHF frequencies is at fault.

I agree with that statement.

The more hills there are, the more prevalent the problem. Some stations are switching back to VHF and will do so on February 17, 2009. The FCC is granting such permits as quickly as they can.

Yet there are even more posters here who argue that smaller UHF antennas for the average user outweighs the VHF coverage advantage. Personally, I don't believe in small antennas, so VHF all the way!

Are your pair of 4228s ganged one above the other or side by side? The author of the stacking web site guesses that one over the other may outperform side by side, but I've never tested that theory. I'd love to know the answer.

Are your pair of 4228s ganged one above the other or side by side? The author of the stacking web site guesses that one over the other may outperform side by side, but I've never tested that theory. I'd love to know the answer.

The 4228s are stacked vertically on the same mast. And yes, I did switch balun polarity to test for proper phase the very first thing when I set the antennas up. There is a very obvious big loss of signal when the baluns are out of phase. Disconnecting one antenna also causes loss of signal and reception of fewer stations.

Since I moved the antennas up slope, atmospheric conditions have only gotten worse. I barely receive any DTV at all now. This is the time of year the government should be testing DTV. Not during the more stable winter months.

I've been forced to spend a small fortune in money and time to try to keep receiving OTA TV in February. The way things now look, I will have NO reliable TV at all after February with the possible exception of two stations switching to VHF, but at much reduced power levels compared to current analog transmisions. I can ill afford to waste this money. Failure by the government to adequately test DTV prior to the mandate and properly advise the public in fringe locations as to whether or not they should throw away money on this fiasco is unconscionable.

TV stations running continuous ads saying all you need to do to keep receiving TV in February is just add a simple easy to install converter box for which the nice government will even give you a $40 coupon is total hogwash. They don't even mention expensive antenna systems and the fact that most portable TVs will no longer function. Even if you have a portable DTV set, you'd have to haul a huge antenna system with you any time you leave a metro area.

Yes, I'm sure many will be happy with DTV, but this should not come at the expense of all those who will lose TV reception through no fault of their own!

You have other options for TV as others have said. D* is what I use.

Just for perspective I live 65 miles from my nearest metropolitan area and there are pics below of my setup. Stable reception of most stations actually occurs with only a dual stack and the quad is really just for fun. :)

AFAIC, I hope you NEVER get a single OTA station with your refusal or inability to read by not suppling your location as requested.

AFAIC, I hope you NEVER get a single OTA station with your refusal or inability to read by not suppling you location as requested.

Heh, and "No soup for him, come back one year".

I dont know whats more maddening, not getting the station at all or getting it and having it drop out in the middle of the good section of a program.

I will have NO reliable TV at all after February with the possible exception of two stations switching to VHF, but at much reduced power levels compared to current analog transmisions.

It takes less power for DTV reception than analog reception.

About 45 miles from major TV antenna farm. My 23 year old RS yagi & dist amp do OK but looking to replace with UHF yagi. Are there any that stop at ch 59, most I've seen go to ch 69 (such as Terrestrial Digital 42XG) which will be unnecessary after Feb.

I repeat, I get stronger reception and more stations with TWO ganged CM4228s. I have tested and compared ONE CM4228 against TWO CM4228s and the baluns are in proper phase!!!!! Don't try to second guess me when I have seen the actual results!!!!!!!

Way to keep the tone of the conversation cordial.

I'm not second guessing you. I'm suggesting that you use a 7/16" wrench and just see, for grins, whether or not going with one CM 4228 helps.

DTV is not always about signal strength as much as signal stability. A ganged antenna introduces some variables. It adds a feed line issue. It can also soak more unwanted signals.

And exactly where the bloody hell do you live? A ZIP code would, as others have mentioned, help tremendously in assessing your issues. It would help determine if there are co-channel issues, overloads, etc. Hell, all your DTV channels might be VHF-low for all we know.

In all seriousness, mellow out and provide some answers. It takes a real talent to come off as an ass on AVS Forum. This is a helpful place, but you have to check your ego at the door and answer the other nice people nicely when they ask you a question.

You have other options for TV as others have said. D* is what I use.Or FTA (FreeToAir) satellite.

Just for perspective I live 65 miles from my nearest metropolitan area and there are pics below of my setup. Stable reception of most stations actually occurs with only a dual stack and the quad is really just for fun. :)
http://i37.tinypic.com/2wdd11k.jpg
Now, that's an antenna setup!

Or FTA (FreeToAir) satellite.



Does FTA=BUD?

I'm lucky my wife allows what I have now.;)

Now, that's an antenna setup!

It's worthwhile to note that I'm lucky to have all of my most desired channels in the low uhf band. This has allowed me to use dedicated low uhf band antennas (Triax Unix 100A (uhf 14-38). This increases performance significantly in-band but drops off like a cliff out of band.

Even with a quad of Televes DAT 75's (wide band uhf) my CBS on uhf 30 is still not consistent.

Now, that's an antenna setup!

Now if only the goverment would give us people in the fringes a $500 coupon to get that, we might be happy, heh.:p:p
Hmm, on second thought, they should throw in another $500 coupon for vhf-hi and vhf-low too while theyre at it.


Yagi Recommend?
About 45 miles from major TV antenna farm. My 23 year old RS yagi & dist amp do OK but looking to replace with UHF yagi. Are there any that stop at ch 59, most I've seen go to ch 69 (such as Terrestrial Digital 42XG) which will be unnecessary after Feb.
Channels will stop at 51 next Feb. Right now, pickins' is slim for antennas designed for 2009. Im sure they are trying to clear out their old inventory first, so youll probably have to wait till next year for a broad selection.

Hmm, on second thought, they should throw in another $500 coupon for vhf-hi and vhf-low too while theyre at it.



It's actually pretty decent for vhf-hi "through the back" as I can get a consistent signal on a CBS vhf 12 from 55 miles away. VHF-lo, now that's another BEAST altogether. There's a digital 4 70 miles north of me (and it's either the most powerful low band digital in the US or close to it) but even with a Wade/Delhi cut channel 4 (top antenna in pic) I still couldn't get consistent reception.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say.:)

Thanks for the excellent (impressive) explanation.

Please do the same calculation for 200ft of RG11 for illustrative purposes if you have time.
You can punch your own numbers into DTV Signal Calculator spread sheet:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=10961518&postcount=2890

do you have links or info as to how the 100A is better in the low band versus their wide band model?
what type of arrangement do you have joining the lines of all those antennas together?
whom did you use stateside to import?

and for the vhf you should have tried the 10 element wade cut model, although it would be a beast; i think generally the lower the vhf digital the more power there allowed to compensate for issues with DTV

It's worthwhile to note that I'm lucky to have all of my most desired channels in the low uhf band. This has allowed me to use dedicated low uhf band antennas (Triax Unix 100A (uhf 14-38). This increases performance significantly in-band but drops off like a cliff out of band.

Even with a quad of Televes DAT 75's (wide band uhf) my CBS on uhf 30 is still not consistent.


t's actually pretty decent for vhf-hi "through the back" as I can get a consistent signal on a CBS vhf 12 from 55 miles away. VHF-lo, now that's another BEAST altogether. There's a digital 4 70 miles north of me (and it's either the most powerful low band digital in the US or close to it) but even with a Wade/Delhi cut channel 4 (top antenna in pic) I still couldn't get consistent reception.

i can tell you why smoke hasn't posted the tvfool plot, because it is going to be horrendous and he knows we all respond that it is hopeless. all his channels will be in the red except for one, the local church channel as jesus always finds a way to come through! they'll all be 55+ miles away, probably 2-3 markets (directions) as well. all will be 2-edge, and tvfool will suggest tower heights well over 100ft to receive 100dbm.

and to correct a number of errors smoke has made...

-ganging does not always mean more signal power; multipath is a huge issue

-you should probably be using more directional yagis with better front to back ratio, with sets aimed at different towers

-you are not using the best equipment as has been noted; there are numerous improvemens and options available

-the FCC has no responsibility or duty, or has ever had in testing tv signals for reception at every signal residence; they just test for interference and market coverage. there is no requirement that any single home receive any useable signals as the FCC is not in the tv business. it is up to your local televesion stations to provide you a signal; some markets are underserved and that is just the fact of life. fortunatley those in troublesome areas have MANY alternate options.

-televison is an entertainment property and no gov't should be using tax dollars to provide it. it is up to each individual to make their channel choices and reception outlays.

-dtv vhf power levels are measured differently than analog, but both provide the same effective power.

-the FCC and gov't has spent millions testing and assisting the public with the coming conversion, much more than many believe they should have - including myself. as the numerous reporst here indicate, reception is fine and dandy and without all the old problems of the past; i sure don't miss the fuzz, snow, rolling picture, analog buzzing, etc.

-the FCC has never been in the business of advising anyone of tv reception equipment or possibilities, that is up to the consumer to pursue.

-antenna sizes are actually smaller not larger with most DTV channels vacating the lower vhf range which requires the huge vhf element antennas people have to use now

-fiasco != BETTER picture, BETTER audio, MORE channels

Sorry, but my VHF antenna is a lot smaller than my UHF antenna. All I need for reliable analog VHF TV is a set of indoor amplified rabbit ears. And I'll take snow over a blank screen any day.

Taxpayers should not fund entertainment, but when a government mandate takes away something that has adequately served the public well for over 60 years and forces people to spend hundreds of dollars on converters and antennas to continue to receive those same services (if they can continue to receive them at all), then the government has to assume responsibility for the problems it causes. The government is planning to auction off frequencies being freed-up by the mandate. Some of that money needs to go to reimbursing those affected by the mandate for antenna systems and loss of service on those frequencies. That's only tit-for-tat. If industries want those frequencies that have been serving the public, then there should be compensation for the cost of the equipment people are forced to buy to continue to receive the exact same services they have already been receiving without having to bear the new expense caused by the government mandate.

By the way, the FCC may not be responsible for this, but NTIA (and Congress) is. And NTIA which has been pushing everybody to buy converters or new DTVs needs to give the public enough information so that can know whether or not to waste any money at all on converters and antennas for DTV signals they cannot receive at all. People just want to continue receiving what they have been receiving. And most people are not "techies". They shouldn't have to deal with preamps, cable loss, ganging antennas, towers and elevated masts for something they already received without any problems with just a pair of rabbit ears.

I won't give out my zip code. I can read the TVFOOL charts as well as anybody else, and I don't need a 100 different opinions. There are no conflicting stations. All stations of interest are all aligned within 5 degrees so I don't need a rotator or antennas pointed in different directions, and almost no station signal reaches here from any other direction, none from the back side of the antenna. It is obvious to me that the problem is due to widely varying and unreliable UHF frequencies caused by insufficient transmission power, hills, trees, distance and atmospheric effects. My antenna system receives strong signals when the atmospheric conditions are right and unviewable signals when conditions are not right. Only increasing antenna height could improve the situation, but that's impractical and too costly. I have no problem with analog VHF. Analog UHF here has always been lousy. Having DTV on UHF means DTV is also lousy. But at least I can watch an analog UHF program through the snow. Analog UHF on my CM4228 antenna system similarily goes from good to bad.

Free TV on satellite is not an option. I know nothing about it and I have already spent more than I can afford on a UHF antenna system. I don't want to waste any more time or money trying any more technology. All I want is to be able to continue to receive the stations I have been receiving for years without any complaints or extra costs. And when I can establish some idea of how many people are similarily affected, I will be directing my correspondence to government representatives and officials. I am sure I am not alone, but I can't have any influence if I act alone.

do you have links or info as to how the 100A is better in the low band versus their wide band model?
what type of arrangement do you have joining the lines of all those antennas together?
whom did you use stateside to import?



Triax's website doesn't supply gain graphs, but Funke's does and the comparison should be similar. Compare the 4591 (21-38) model pdf with the 4591(21-69) model pdf.
http://www.funke.nl/subcategorie.php?type=sub&id=52

I use a Lindsay 4 way uhf stripline combiner. A similar product can be had here:http://www.hamtv.com/oal.html

I get the antennas from CPC:
http://cpc.farnell.com/AP00620/aerials-satellite/product.us0?sku=triax-108791
You have to phone them. They wont' do international orders online.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say.:)

Thanks for the excellent (impressive) explanation.

Please do the same calculation for 200ft of RG11 for illustrative purposes if you have time.
Rather than do a lot of spot calculations, it's probably more useful to develop some "rule of thumb" from the equations.

"To only suffer 1 dB additional system noise figure over the noise figure of the preamp itself requires that the preamp gain is 4 dB more than the total of the coax loss and receiver noise figure."

In other words, if your coax loss is 3 db and your receiver noise figure is 7 dB (for a total of 10 dB), the preamp gain required is 14 dB.

Let's test the premise with a 2.0 dB NF preamp at 26 dB, 20 dB and 14 dB gain.

170 + 2610 / 398 (26 dB) = 176K or 2.06 dB

170 + 2610 / 100 (20 dB) = 196K or 2.24 dB

170 + 2610 / 25 (14 dB) = 274K or 2.89 dB

The idea is to match the preamp gain to the coax loss and receiver noise figure. More gain buys you very little improvement in signal to noise ratio but a lot of degradation in overload performance.

Ron

... I will be directing my correspondence to government representatives and officials...Good luck, but the only change you'll likely see is increased power and/or additional DT translator stations, which have been held back until analog is shutoff.

Everyone cannot get every wireless service available. My neighbor can't get a cell signal at his house or even in the yard. But the FCC isn't going to redo the cell phone system because there isn't 100% coverage. Same for television. It ain't gonna happen, so deal with it. If you really mustseeTV, save your money for a FTA sat system. They're not that expensive. Personally, I would just do without. Most stuff on TV nowadays is junk, anyway.

I don't understand your reluctance to even give out a ZIP Code. Unless you're the only resident in that ZIP. Perhaps the black helicopters are interrupting your TV signal.

I won't give out my zip code. Obviously paranoid and anti social. Must have something to hide.I don't need a 100 different opinions.IOW's he doesn't need anyones help.

I don't know why you guys are wasteing your time on him.

Oh goodness. Forum Trolls, you even see one here now and again.
The Good thing about it is, they are easy to spot.


As for digital television being worthless, what bs that is.. I live twenty five miles from
all of my stations and was never able to get good,decent quality picture over the air
here.. but with ATSC I can sit and watch five channels locally, and two more from seventy miles away with a simple outside vhf beam antenna a few feet long.

So nah, I dont need to hear the whining. :P


John

Now I hope you aren't referring to me considering I tried to help him and he wouldn't cooperate and this is your only post in this thread.

Nope, not you. The guy who whined about digital tv being worthless and wouldnt even give his zip for folks to help him. :P


John

There are several stations I receive digital only and can't even see their analog signal or can barely see it. So far, I'm impressed with the DTV world but we'll see how this all comes out in feb. Am looking forward to that day myself!

Everyone cannot get every wireless service available. My neighbor can't get a cell signal at his house or even in the yard. But the FCC isn't going to redo the cell phone system because there isn't 100% coverage. Same for television. It ain't gonna happen, so deal with it. If you really mustseeTV, save your money for a FTA sat system. They're not that expensive.

The difference is cellular phone service has not previously existed at your neighbor's house. TV service has always existed at my home. How would you like it if your mail was no longer delivered to you?

Any one have any thoughts on the Eagle Aspen ROTR100? I noticed that it uses coax cable for its signal instead of the three wire cable like others do, which would be convenient for me to not have to drill any more holes to run wire through.

Three wires or not, what's the general opinion as to the best rotator available?

Obviously paranoid and anti social. Must have something to hide.IOW's he doesn't need anyones help.

I'm putting my money on "he lives 6 miles from the furthest towers" and it just dawned upon him a ganged antenna would be a really bad idea in that scenario.

johnied; Ok, but one would never know that since you posted directly after me.

If we ignore this anti social, ultra paranoid whinner, he might go away. I bet he lives just outside of East Farmers Bumf*ck, in the middle of nowhere and wonders why he can't get anything. ;)

Any one have any thoughts on the Eagle Aspen ROTR100? I noticed that it uses coax cable for its signal instead of the three wire cable like others do, which would be convenient for me to not have to drill any more holes to run wire through.

Three wires or not, what's the general opinion as to the best rotator available?

nwiser - check this discussion
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=840847&highlight=Eagle+Aspen+ROTR100

Cool find! :D

It hasn't been a problem for, what, 40 years now to run two wires from antenna to TV, why should it be any different now? The loss through those two devices just isn't worth it. It might not make much difference with anlaog, but this isn't your Fathers TV any more. ;)

nwiser - check this discussion
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=840847&highlight=Eagle+Aspen+ROTR100

thank you for pointing me to that thread. it seems that running it through the coax causes up to 5 db loss on some frequencies...and the main reviewer ended up running a seperate wire with f connectors on each end anyway. I already have coax running into my house from the previous owners cable installation, and since I'm not much of a handyman I was hoping I could get away with just using it for everything. darn.

I have a cordless drill but I dont have a bit long enough to drill through the cinderblock into my basement...so if I run additional wiring I have to go buy a long masonry bit....and then after the holes are drilled I have to seal off the gap with something. I could use some silicone caulk I guess...though some of the other holes that have been sealed around look like they have this black/grey rubbery stuff around them...anyone have a guess as to what that stuff might be?

Since it looks like I will need to use a rotor with its own wire...what's the best one for the money?

I could use some silicone caulk I guess...though some of the other holes that have been sealed around look like they have this black/grey rubbery stuff around them...anyone have a guess as to what that stuff might be?

Butyl rubber caulk (http://homerepair.about.com/od/interiorhomerepair/ss/sbs_select_caul_5.htm).

I already have coax running into my house from the previous owners cable installationHow old is it? I would just replace it with RG6.I'm not much of a handyman I was hoping I could get away with just using it for everything.How much of a "handyman" do you have to be to drill a hole?I dont have a bit long enough to drill through the cinderblock into my basement...so if I run additional wiring I have to go buy a long masonry bit.Ok and............I could use some silicone caulk I guess.Almost anything. Since it is above ground on a vertical surface, you have no concern about anything.Since it looks like I will need to use a rotor with its own wire...what's the best one for the money?Your are already here.

If you don't care about repeated accuracy (which is the selling point of this), anything will do. Even though they are all imported, I would only deal with models from Channel Master since you have their support vs dealing with a no name wonder.

...so if I run additional wiring I have to go buy a long masonry bit....
Or you could buy a drill bit extention. That may come in handy on other projects.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but is all RG-6 quad shield cable the same?

I've looked at some places like Summit Source, Solid signal, Amazon.com, etc...and the prices seem to vary. What's a reasonable price one should expect to pay for 100ft of RG6 quad shielded cable?

Is the more expensive stuff the price it is only for the name...or is there a quality difference in manufacturers? Is it a big deal to get the copper coated vs. solid copper cable? Also are the compression F-connectors better than the crimp on ones?

The top part of board of a Radio Shack/Archer 15-1117 10db preamp cut open: http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/7658/dscn0390648x486486x364tj9.jpg

The bottom part of the board: http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6892/dscn0389648x486486x364qm2.jpg

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but is all RG-6 quad shield cable the same?Stupid, no. Asked before, yes.
No they aren't. Are all 4 cylinder engines the same?

Solid vs stranded vs copper clad center,
Percent of braid coverage & type of and amount of foil shield,
Quality of dielectric and outer jacket,
Where it is made.

All the 'cheaper' stuff is from China. I would NOT buy from Summit Source. They run misleading product listings and threaten you with fees if you chalenge a charge. I'm also less inclinded to buy from Solid Signal.

300ohm; nice pics. A good reason I would never buy anything like that, RS or not.

All the 'cheaper' stuff is from China. I would NOT buy from Summit Source. They run misleading product listings and threaten you with fees if you chalenge a charge. I'm also less inclinded to buy from Solid Signal.

It might help to add where you would buy buy from. Trusted recommendations on buying are always helpful.

Is the more expensive stuff the price it is only for the name...or is there a quality difference in manufacturers? Is it a big deal to get the copper coated vs. solid copper cable? Also are the compression F-connectors better than the crimp on ones?

Copper coated versus solid matters only if you are running a long run with DC power (between power injector and pre-amp, for instance) or other low-frequency signals. Though even the voltage drop from the entire 100 feet of copper-coated steel (which presents about 3 ohms of resistance) probably wouldn't bother a pre-amp much.

The next thing to consider is braid coverage, which runs from miserable (some radio shack cables) to 95%, with 60% being pretty typical. I've found 60% to be adequate, but I have no nearby interference sources (like very close TV or FM stations). There's also things like the quality of the dielectric which are harder to quantify. If the cable is very easy to crimp/crease (Phillips, many premade cables), it's probably no good.

I've made 4 purchases from Solid Signal with absolutely no problems with a great price and quick delivery. You must have had a bad experience with them.

Never had a problem with Summit Source. Sorry you apparently did. BUT... their shipping fees are pretty steep, and that "package handing fee" they impose on many products is a gimmick to make it look like SS has the lowest price in a search result -- when they don't.

Here is something I picked up for the tools and tricks box.

RS 20db variable attenuator.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn88/EscapeVelo/IMG_0202.jpg

300ohm; nice pics. A good reason I would never buy anything like that, RS or not.


Yeah. Look how close all the components are to each other. That probably accounts for a lot of the high noise figure from the feedback it probably gets. On my CM 0264 the components are spaced relatively much further apart.

The only transistor in it is labeled :

FR90A
PH47


EscapeVelocity,
what did the Shack charge for it ?

I've bought a dozen of that Radio Shack amplifier and they have all served me well because I only use them in situations where they do what I need, which is to boost a weak, light channel load by a small amount. I've used them many times in hotels with PPV movie systems to amplify the sub-band return signals. They are what they are. For most do-it-yourselfers who do not have access to a signal meter, they do not have enough headroom to enable a person to just drop one into an off-air antenna downlead without risking overload.

Everyone needs a variable attenuator. :)

Seriously. It definitely improves things for me. It seems to "dial things in" placed right before my tuners. I use a preamp on the antenna, and a post amplifier right before the RS attenuator outputting to the tuners. I think probably it allows to adjust for max gain just under the overload point at the tuner's input, but someone else might have a better explanation.

Many also use them to help attenuate multipath.

Picked it up on fleabay.

You must have had a bad experience with them.It is a "bad experiance" when they decept the customer by this;their shipping fees are pretty steep, and that "package handing fee" they impose on many products is a gimmick to make it look like SS has the lowest price in a search result -- when they don't.and threaten axtra fees if you dispute a charge. How many outlest threaten you if you dispute a charge? I never saw one before. That tells me they have had problems in the past with their deceptful pratices, namely the above to name one.

Everyone needs a variable attenuator.Problem with that is;
1. You have no idea how much attenuation you are applying unless you have a SLM,
2. The 'pot' can/will get 'dirty' (corroded/oxidized) after a period of non use which will vary the amount of attenuation applied,
3. It's easy to bump the knob, changing the value.

Better yet is to get a set of different value fixed 'pads' It solves all of the above problems and they aren't expensive.;
http://www.mjsales.net/items.asp?FamilyID=221&this_Cat1ID=265&Cat2ID=93


You can also get a pad with a number of fixed value resistors switching them in and out of line;

Better yet is to get a set of different value fixed 'pads' It solves all of the above problems and they aren't expensive.;

It seems they are nothing more than resistors inside. Anything wrong with using a resistor in-line between two F-Connectors ? All that would be needed besides a good VOM is a calibrated attenuation/resistance chart based on vhf/uhf frequencies and 75 ohm cable.

Three resistors inside a RF shielded enclousure. If you want to go through all the trouble. ;)

Pico-Macom appears to have a bunch of 75-ohm pads (FAM-series) which will be cheaper and better than anything you can build. The variable might be useful for testing but I wouldn't leave it in any permanent installation.

So... I picked up a Wade UV936SR antenna from my neighbor who had it removed when he had his roof re-done.

I also have a DIY 30 x 75 screen Dual Bay Gray Hooverman UHF antenna. Both are going to be fed into a Winegard AP-8780 preamp.

My question is: should I get a Pico Macom VHF/UHF combiner or use a simple splitter in reverse. The DBGH should have about 15-16+ dbd of gain on UHF, while the Wade has about 12dbd.

How would this affect performance?

So... I picked up a Wade UV936SR antenna from my neighbor who had it removed when he had his roof re-done.

I also have a DIY 30 x 75 screen Dual Bay Gray Hooverman UHF antenna. Both are going to be fed into a Winegard AP-8780 preamp.

My question is: should I get a Pico Macom VHF/UHF combiner or use a simple splitter in reverse. The DBGH should have about 15-16+ dbd of gain on UHF, while the Wade has about 12dbd.

How would this affect performance?The UVSJ offers 2 advantages over a reversed simple splitter for your needs:

1. Only 0.5 db insertion loss
2. Filters out of band signals

A typical reversed simple splitter will have around 3.0db insertion loss, and does not filter out of band signals.

Hope this helps, Glen

Oh... that's probably true. I guess I'll get a UVSJ then.

Got 'nother quickie for you experts....

I'm going to be burying cables in a few days, and I'm wondering how deep I should go? I was thinking 3-4 in. Is this overkill? should I go deeper?

Thanks!!

I'm going to be burying cables in a few days, and I'm wondering how deep I should go? I was thinking 3-4 in. Is this overkill? should I go deeper?


If youre going to bury the cables, I would go a little deeper. Buried rubber and soft plastics have a tendency to rise over time in soft ground and in a few years you may be cutting the cable with a lawn mover, heh. From what Ive seen, cable companies go down at least a foot on the run to a house.

Cool, thanks.

The entire run goes through the woods, so I don't think lawn mowers will be an issue, it's the rabbits, deer and other things that like to nibble away at it (the previous owners had some crap antenna up there and a run of coax that had some pretty large bight marks in it.

I have burried cables a few inches under my back yard and they last about 10 years. If you want longer life they need to be in a conduit and probably below the frost line.
John

The frost line in Rochester, Minnesota is surely over four feet deep. The only place here I have ever had trouble with frost heaved breaking an underground coax is when it was in shifting clay in a defective landfill that also was sliding down the hill.

I don't think lawn mowers will be an issue, it's the rabbits, deer and other things that like to nibble away at it (the previous owners had some crap antenna up there and a run of coax that had some pretty large bight marks in it.

My guess is rats, they seem to have a taste for cables, heh.

My guess is rats, they seem to have a taste for cables, heh.

Comcast once ran a cable exposed under my back deck, about a 15' run, and it had a run in with a raccoon, we think. You could see where it was gnawed on, big time.

I just got done digging the first 30ft (of 230ft) of trench through the steepest, baddest, rootiest (is that even a word?) section of the woods. After sawing out about five ginormous roots and cutting a buried metal cow fence, I've got about 75ft of nice grassland, then more woods, then a nice clear area right up to the antenna site.

I'm doing about 5-6" depth. Think I should be good.

FWIW, the entire hill is really sandy (we have big chunks of exposed limestone near the top), so the digging's not that bad.

I don't think I'm gonna bury it below the frost line :) Our cable line is only a few inches below the surface, and still works great, after 13 years.

Well, I'm back out to the 85 degree, humid, sunny weather.

I purchased a Channel Master CM 0068DSB preamp that is rated at 23db gain for UHF and 16db gain for VHF. After installing it on the mast near my Channel Master CM4221 antenna my signal strength is practically gone. With the preamp plugged in I'm getting just six VHF channels. When I unplug the preamp my channel count goes up to 10 (6 VHF and 4 UHF digital) channels. Previously without the preamp installed I was able to get most of my channels with only the NBC channel being a problem from time to time. I am a little over 30 miles away from the main towers according to tvfool. Am I getting too much gain now? I tried using a 4 way splitter to maybe reduce the gain but I was still only getting the six VHF channels.

Most likely, you're getting done in by a strong, local FM radio station.

I am a little over 30 miles away from the main towers according to tvfool.That's why you need a signal level meter. Used analog display models can be had for around $50 and better digital display models for under $200 off e-bay.
Small price to pay since most here have already invested thousands in equipment already. ;)
I've yet to find a preamp that can take even moderate signal levels without being overloaded.

If it is FM, that can be solved very easily with a band filter which the amp/preamp should already have built in.

Previously without the preamp installed I was able to get most of my channels with only the NBC channel being a problem from time to time.

Is NBC on a VHF channel in your city? Your antenna is UHF only.

I purchased a Channel Master CM 0068DSB preamp that is rated at 23db gain for UHF and 16db gain for VHF. After installing it on the mast near my Channel Master CM4221 antenna my signal strength is practically gone. With the preamp plugged in I'm getting just six VHF channels. When I unplug the preamp my channel count goes up to 10 (6 VHF and 4 UHF digital) channels. Previously without the preamp installed I was able to get most of my channels with only the NBC channel being a problem from time to time. I am a little over 30 miles away from the main towers according to tvfool. Am I getting too much gain now? I tried using a 4 way splitter to maybe reduce the gain but I was still only getting the six VHF channels.
First, you need to provide your location, preferably to nearby cross streets or post tvfool.com results.
To avoid overload desensitization, High gain Preamps are best suited for rural locations....

And details on how you share the downlead with your (old MPEG2?) DirecTV system,
including specifics on how DC voltage is supplied to the Preamp (e.g. DC PASSTHRU diplexers?).
[New MPEG4 D* systems overlap the TV band...]

No DirecTV tuner or diplexers for this antenna. This is a direct cable run to the TV and HTPC with two tuners installed. Zip Code is 78254. As I mentioned earlier before using the preamp I was able to get all of the major channels (ABC, CBS and FOX) with only NBC giving me problems with dropouts. Power is provided by the Preamp power supply plugged in behind the TV in a power outlet. I will check the FM trap settings inside the preamp tonight. The NBC channel is UHF but I could have confused some of the other analog UHF channels as VHF channels during the scan results :confused:. I hoped this was the last tweak I needed to do to correct the NBC problems with the antenna. Now I'm back to more tweaks I guess.:(

That zipcode (probably your nearby Post Office) is only 10 miles away from
high power UHF stations (Analog KMYS and KMYS-DT). Your location may be even closer....

Received VHF signal strengths are also quite high, which could desensitize Preamp
due to intermods on top of weak stations (overload).

You should be using high overload W-G HDP-259 VHF/UHF Preamp...or none....
to prevent desensitization due to intermod products.

NBC is shown as being only slightly weaker than other networks and I
don't see any obvious co-channel or adjacent channel problems.
[Presuming they're actually operating at full power level reported to FCC.]
Since it is on CH58, there can be higher cable and splitter loss,
which may only be partially offset by higher CM-4221 gain on that channel.
Should be receivable without Preamp....maybe direction needs to be tweaked???

You should punch your actual location into both www.tvfool.com and www.fmfool.com
There are SIX full power FM stations within 2 miles of that zipcode location---OUCH!!!!
You may need a separate FM Band Filter in addition to the FM Trap in Preamp...

PS: The FCC's TVQ database does NOT include new CH52+ band users,
such as MediaFlo, which can also desensitize Preamps...

Post-Feb2009, ABC & PBS will move to hi-VHF freqs, plus more distant CW on lo-VHF CH5.
CM-4221 may or may not have enough (negative) VHF gain for ABC & PBS
and you'll probably need a new VHF antenna to pick up CH5.

If you are contemplating a new, higher gain antenna, the CM-4228 has
moderate gain for hi-VHF band and may or may not be enough for CH5.

holl_ands,

Thanks for the info. I will take the preamp off and see what I can get again. Wasn't aware of the FM stations that close to my area.

Here is my latest gizmo for the toolbox. Anybody know anything about this item?


http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn88/EscapeVelo/IMG_0214.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn88/EscapeVelo/IMG_0215.jpg

looks like a converter to convert smaller DC volatge operated divices to where they can be run by your car battery. Just match the devices operating voltage with the switch and fit the appropriate plug into the device whatever it may be. I could be wrong but thats what it looks like it is.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the quality of the CM 9521 rotor? I have been using one for 5 months with only a 91-XG, Winegard 7210 (Only 1 at a time) and a 5 foot mast. It has failed 2-3 times; but unplugging the unit has resolved the problem in the past. It is now completely dead. I have checked the wiring a few times; and found nothing wrong.

I have a 2nd hand "Centronics" I picked up off of Craigs list that I was thinking about using. Never heard of that brand name; so I'm hesitant to put it up and have it die mid-winter.

I wouldn't think that a heavier duty unit would be necessary for such a small load.

Any Thoughts???????

UPDATE--- I replaced the ultra thin CM rotor wire with much better quality RS rotor wire. PROBLEM SOLVED!!

Thx, Glen:confused:

Here is my latest gizmo for the toolbox. Anybody know anything about this item?


Yes, I got one exactly like it somewhere, except it has a Radio Shack logo on it. Its a universal DC cigarette lighter adapter. You can power and or charge most battery operated electronics from your cars cigarette lighter with it. Just match up the voltage and plug needed.

There seems to be an inline fuse holder or some such.

"Centronics"

If its the same company, Centronics was a very popular computer cable manufacturer in the late 1980's. It should be fairly decent quality but it may be on the old side, so you may want to take it apart and check it out. Ive rebuilt/refurbished my old Alliance rotor many times, heh.

I buy a lot from Centronics. They are a distributor of television reception hardware. They don't make anything: they just stamp their name on a lot of stuff, mostly low end quality-wise.They have antennas that are copies of Winegard designs for a few dollars less, but they won't sell to individuals. You have to establish yourself as a reseller to be able to buy from them.

The only junk item they ever sold me was a couple of rotors with controllers for I think $39,95 each. The rotor controller knob in both would drag and throw the orientation off.

The rotor controller knob in both would drag and throw the orientation off.Had that happen to a couple of older CM ones.

That is a "DC-DC converter". Better ones are like these;
http://store.sundancesolar.com/undcadpoco.html

http://www.powerstream.com/
(search for the "PST-DC292")

So I removed the preamp and still had problems getting a signal, now on all the major networks. I replaced the existing cable with a RG6 quad shielded cable I had left over and the scan results on my TV put out more channels than I've ever seen before. Getting all green bars on the HTPC as well in MCE2005 digital tv setup as well. But when I cut the cable to an acceptable length (probably six feet) the signal strength did decrease some in the MCE2005 setup. Yet I was still getting all of the channels. Then when I used the cable screw ties to mount the cable my signal strength is virtually gone again. I lost NBC and CBS.

Would using the cable ties cause an extra pinch to the cable that can impact the signal?

The ties should do nothing. Most likely you have a bad connection someplace.
John

Can anyone tell me if any of today's rotators can completely sync with a tv's tuner? -- put another way, when selecting a tv's channel pre-set, can a controller be made see that channel input and spin the rotator to match the channel, or is it still two separate operations: tv - controller?

Can anyone tell me if any of today's rotators can completely sync with a tv's tuner? -- put another way, when selecting a tv's channel pre-set, can a controller be made see that channel input and spin the rotator to match the channel, or is it still two separate operations: tv - controller?FWIW, the CM7000 converter box, & the CM9521 rotor use the same remote codes. If you have the 9521 programmed with the appropriate channel #, it will rotate the antenna everytime you punch the channel # into the converters remote. It won't work with the channel up/down buttons correctly though. You have to punch in the actual channel # for it to work.

FWIW, the CM7000 converter box, & the CM9521 rotor use the same remote codes. If you have the 9521 programmed with the appropriate channel #, it will rotate the antenna everytime you punch the channel # into the converters remote. It won't work with the channel up/down buttons correctly though. You have to punch in the actual channel # for it to work.


As there is already an ATSC tuner in this Pioneer tv, I suppose programming a Harmony universal rc might accomplish most of the same objectives as you suggest -- I donno as we don't have one yet. Otherwise, it seems that surfing channels will have to be more deliberate and require separate inputs by the user (?)

Would using the cable ties cause an extra pinch to the cable that can impact the signal?

If they aren't the right kind for your cable, yes. You don't want to crush coax.

FWIW, the CM7000 converter box, & the CM9521 rotor use the same remote codes. If you have the 9521 programmed with the appropriate channel #, it will rotate the antenna everytime you punch the channel # into the converters remote. It won't work with the channel up/down buttons correctly though. You have to punch in the actual channel # for it to work.


I'm slightly curious about that. The rotor accepts two digit channel numbers, or three digit "Degree" headings I though.

How would it know the difference between 32.1 and 321-Degrees?

I ask assuming you own both to answer this...

I own both, but never nmade a connection with a pre-programmed channel position on the rotor and a channel change with the CM7000.
I would assume using the decimal point would confuse the rotor since it isn't looking for that.
I don't remember if you can enter a decimal point in for the 7000.

I'm slightly curious about that. The rotor accepts two digit channel numbers, or three digit "Degree" headings I though.

How would it know the difference between 32.1 and 321-Degrees?

I ask assuming you own both to answer this...
This only works with 1 or 2 digit inputs. If you put in 3 digits; the rotor will go to that compass position. The 9521 has to be pre-programmed for this to work.

BTW; since I replaced the ultra-thin rotor wire CM wire with higher quality RS wire; the antenna is staying sychronized much better. It eventually completely quit working because of the CM wire.

I was aware the 9521 has to be pre-programmed for that to work, it was the three digit thing that had me.

But then the CM-7000 will go to the xx.1 channel by default if you input just two digits and wait for it to time-out. All xx.? channels are same direction for any given channel anyway.

So it seems all that one would need to change was the 9521 accepting channel up/down commands so xx.2, xx.3, Etc. could be accessed without the rotor wandering around. Right?


Edit:
Or did they see this comming and only the numeric keys from the CM-7000 work on the rotor, and not the CH Up/Dn ones perhaps?

Has anyone tried to rebradcast the DTV signal from a CECB so that TVs in their home can receive DTV on ch 3 or 4? For example I have an antenna in my attic feeding my downstairs TV, but upstairs their is no cable feed to the bathroom or bedrooms. Since I don't watch TV upstairs much, I think I would be satisfied if I could rebroadcast the signal from one of my TV converter boxes so that any upstairs TV could receive DTV programming on ch 3 or 4. Would I need a linear amp to be able to get the CECB RF output signal strong enough to rebroadcast? I realize that all upstairs TVs would have to watch the same program that the rebroadcasted CECB is tuned to, but this may not be a big issue.

How long the cable lasts when buried in soil depends on how good the cable insulation is and probably how acid the soil is. You can buy direct burial cable from Belden and other big suppliers that will last for decades when buried. It has to say direct burial. Pulling cable through conduits usually does not guarantee a long life unless it is direct burial cable because usually the conduits fill up with water so the cable is immersed in water most of the year. As I recall the insulation was some type of polyethylene and it was very stiff and hard to strip.

wire through garden hose, been done...works fine.

Use a vacum to pull kite string through, then pull the wire back.

I use that crappy irrigation tubing at $20 per 100' myself...buries easy with a spade blade and a properly fashioned stick. High-tech isn't always the best answer. Does the (Proverbial) shed need better???


Anyway, I ran a piece of old RG-213 (Like RG-8U, NOT 75-ohm for sure) up through the center of a house once. left a three foot section bare center conducter on each level with a slightly spaced ground tracer from start to stop of that break keeping the shield active the rest of the way.

Works amazingly well. Won't work with smaller coax, you need a junk piece of that big-ole CB-Band wire or equivelant. The emission doesn't even make it to a portable TV in the driveway so I don't belive it's an issue about disurbing ones neighbor. Rabbit ears were what did the receiving work of course on the house TV's on each level... CH-3 box was in the celler, so three levels were fed. But then again, there was no local Ch-3.

RonandLeanne,
one normal 75-Ohm TV cable to a central location feeding a 75-to-300-Ohm adapter balun would feed a pair of rabbit ears just fine if that fits your bill. Assuming that 2/3 or 3/4 (box dependant) gives you a choice of an unused channel in your area. Your basicly back-feeding the balun from the 75 to the 300 changing it from a single ended signal to a differential one for the rabit ears. Just connect the balun and rabbit ears flat leads accordingly.

Forgive me if the stone age techniques here have banjo's playing in yer head (lol)...

If you want good rotor wire, try a ham radio store like the wireman (http://www.thewireman.com) or Texas towers. (http://www.texastowers.com)

Most of these places take mostly phone orders mind you. Their online ordering systems suck.

So it seems all that one would need to change was the 9521 accepting channel up/down commands so xx.2, xx.3, Etc. could be accessed without the rotor wandering around. Right?


Edit:
Or did they see this comming and only the numeric keys from the CM-7000 work on the rotor, and not the CH Up/Dn ones perhaps?I just hooked my CM-7000 back up.(Unfortunately, the Zenith works better here) The CM-9521 remote control operates both units; but the CM-7000 remote only controls the convertor box.(Can anybody explain that?????)) The up & down keys on the 9521 change the channels also. Hope this helps.

Glen:confused:

Has anyone tried to rebradcast the DTV signal from a CECB so that TVs in their home can receive DTV on ch 3 or 4? For example I have an antenna in my attic feeding my downstairs TV, but upstairs their is no cable feed to the bathroom or bedrooms. Since I don't watch TV upstairs much, I think I would be satisfied if I could rebroadcast the signal from one of my TV converter boxes so that any upstairs TV could receive DTV programming on ch 3 or 4. Would I need a linear amp to be able to get the CECB RF output signal strong enough to rebroadcast? I realize that all upstairs TVs would have to watch the same program that the rebroadcasted CECB is tuned to, but this may not be a big issue.
You would need quite a bit of gain to get this to work....

Which would ALSO retransmit the Converter Box's internally generated RF Noise
throughout your neighborhood. Which could degrade reception on other than CH3/4.

PS: If it's more than a few milliwatts, you could also be in violation of Federal Law.

PPS: Cable companies regularly patrol neighborhoods looking for leakage from
their cables...and could inadvertently find YOU.

Most boxes transmit enough to make it twenty, thirty feet tops with rabit ears through a balun to a TV with rabit ears also. I got nothing but snow on a good portable battery TV in the driveway as example, and perfectly watchable picture on the units about fifteen feet from that center feed. So that is safe.

The channel 2/3 or 3/4 outputs of equipment are very low power. On some you can get away with one splitter (3.5-Db loss) before it degrades, on some you won't notice unless you put a three-way or larger splitter. But much over about a 5-Db loss and your already loosing it.

But you do bring up a good point, you wouldn't want to amplify them and rebroadcast that.


Digital Rules,
That is very helpful, I am considering that rotor control head because of my CM-7000's here. I'll call them and see what I can find out.

PPS: Cable companies regularly patrol neighborhoods looking for leakage from
their cables...and could inadvertently find YOU.

What kind of leakage? Are you talking about cable tv theft...or are you saying that the Cable tv signal actually broadcasts some over the air if theres a "leak"? Or neither?

What kind of leakage? Are you talking about cable tv theft...or are you saying that the Cable tv signal actually broadcasts some over the air if theres a "leak"? Or neither?
they are looking for leakage that might interfere with other services such as aircraft communications. yes they actually broadcast some over the air.
milt9

they are looking for leakage that might interfere with other services such as aircraft communications. yes they actually broadcast some over the air.
milt9

thats very interesting. is it just single channels that are broadcasted or their entire bandwith?

another question would be, if their signal can broadcast OTA, why havent they tried doing that instead of running miles and miles of cable everywhere?

Theres talk on the DTV CECB forums here about some boxes possibly having hidden smartcard/chip features for future OTA pay services, which is also very interesting. That sure would be good for the consumer and competition, as most markets with cable usually only have one provider due to cable having to be run. Verizon seems to be circumnavigating this issue, but not many others.

thats very interesting. is it just single channels that are broadcasted or their entire bandwith?

another question would be, if their signal can broadcast OTA, why havent they tried doing that instead of running miles and miles of cable everywhere?

Theres talk on the DTV CECB forums here about some boxes possibly having hidden smartcard/chip features for future OTA pay services, which is also very interesting. That sure would be good for the consumer and competition, as most markets with cable usually only have one provider due to cable having to be run. Verizon seems to be circumnavigating this issue, but not many others.

The leakage is normally seen on VHF channels only as they are shared by both cable and OTA.I've had problems in the past and the cable co came and fixed the problem.If you ever have the problem,ask to speak to a tech.The CSR's won't have a clue what you're talking about.

Cable co's rebroadcasting OTA? You must be kidding.Controlled pipeline=revenue.

Cable co's rebroadcasting OTA? You must be kidding.Controlled pipeline=revenue.

Of course that. But also, one of cables biggest selling points was snow free reception. Broadcasting over the air would introduce noise from various sources.

Of course that. But also, one of cables biggest selling points was snow free reception. Broadcasting over the air would introduce noise from various sources.

ehhh...I had cable for a few years and still had noise from various sources...they blamed it on my TV...I cancelled my cable, and had the last laugh. :)

when i wrote they were broadcasting over the air i meant the leakage was going over the air. where some cable companies have Fm radio on the cable it can also leak.
milt9

What kind of leakage? Are you talking about cable tv theft...or are you saying that the Cable tv signal actually broadcasts some over the air if theres a "leak"? Or neither?
ALL of the above.
If your neighbor is illegally "jacking"' into your cable signal, they might
simply strip the cable and wrap a wire around the exposed wire...very leaky.

More importantly, cable systems must not leak and interfere with comms
to/from overflying aircraft (et.al.), including VOR navigation beacons,
nor any other communications band user. Degraded in-home connectors,
damaged outdoor cables, as well as illegal tampering can result in a problem.

Cable uses nearly ALL frequencies, from CH2 through 860 MHz (some 1 GHz)
for video/data, and BELOW CH2 for reverse link from cable boxes and modems.
Hence, that includes the FM band, military bands and many Ham radio bands.

Have researched low noise UHF preamps and found numerous successful uses of the Winegard AC-4990. But i cant find any for sale online (one exception - no posted price, specs, or pix). Not even at Winegard online store. And i cant even find specs.

Is it discontinued or made by a different mfr?
Approx price?
Where to buy?
Anybody have the specs?
Does it have a 300 or 75 ohm input?

Any suggestions for low noise UHF-only preamps with 300 Ohm input that is obtainable? (I know about the CM 0065 and 0264 VHF-UHF dual input models).

According to http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-136336-p-9.html it is an "older model preamp from the 80's: 29db gain, 2.9db NF. 300 ohm input".
It has probably been replaced by new ones with 75 ohm input.
John

I would stay away from old, discountinued products...
some of them had self-oscillation problems.

Current (non-oscillating) W-G products are summarized here:
http://www.winegard.com/offair/preamps.htm
Note that ALL are 75-ohm input, for use with an external 300/75-ohm Balun.....

But if you click on link to the printable chart you'll find:
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/Chart29.pdf
Which lists several models with 300-ohm input (the 300/75-ohm Balun is INTERNAL).
They are about the same as a 75-ohm input Preamp which has an EXTERNAL Balun....

These are readily available from www.solidsignal.com, www.summitsource.com,
www.starkelectronic.com and others.

PS: If you have "nearby" TV or FM stations, go for the lower gain models.
The W-G HDP-269 has the highest overload resistance....

Thanks for the inputs from everyone. I was looking for a low noise figure amp with 300 ohm input to get the total system noise figure down. 300 ohm eliminates need for an unknown-performance transformer before the amp. Im using a CM 4228 antenna to try for some Atlanta stations about 85 miles away. (I can reliably get WPCH-DT without the amp now, but others are intermittent or nonexistent)

Ive decided a tradeoff that should work is the CM 0264. It has a low advertised 2.2 dB noise figure in UHF. It is VHF-UHF but has separate inputs so i can terminate the VHF input or add a separate (VHF only) antenna pointing in another direction.

Ive decided a tradeoff that should work is the CM 0264.

I have the CM0264 and it works great. It has a 300 ohm UHF input, a 300 ohm VHF input, and one 75 ohm combined output. It also has an adjustable FM trap.

I would get one quick, since Channel Master changed hands, its no longer listed in the new catalog.

The RG-11 connectors and a UVSJ arrived from Solid Signal today!!! Now all I have to wait for is the rotor bearing, we get a few parts locally, and the antenna goes up.

I was hoping the RG-11 connectors (Digicon PVFC11) would come with terminating instructions/directions, but they didn't.

After a little surfing, I can't find anything.

Can someone tell me dimensions for shield/center conductor?

another question would be, if their signal can broadcast OTA, why havent they tried doing that instead of running miles and miles of cable everywhere?

Theres talk on the DTV CECB forums here about some boxes possibly having hidden smartcard/chip features for future OTA pay services, which is also very interesting. That sure would be good for the consumer and competition, as most markets with cable usually only have one provider due to cable having to be run.
Years ago, grandpa received a movie and Dodgers pay channel over the air. He used a UHF antenna & a little decoder box. I think he paid about $10 a month. I can't remember the name because that was about 30 years ago.

The RG-11 connectors and a UVSJ arrived from Solid Signal today!!! Now all I have to wait for is the rotor bearing, we get a few parts locally, and the antenna goes up.

I was hoping the RG-11 connectors (Digicon PVFC11) would come with terminating instructions/directions, but they didn't.

Here's an instruction: buy a $60 compression tool.

You need to prep the end of the wire by trimming the end so there is 1/4" of exposed cernter conductor and another 1/4" of foil showing. You should fold back the braid.

With some skill, you can compress them using two pair of Channel Locks at the same time, but you have to be careful. Most self-installers are better off buying the old, cheaper crimp-style RG-11 connectors that they can crimp with pliers by carefully making small pinches on thier perimeter.

With the Digicons, you get to see the center conductor enter the pin siezure mechanism before you stuff the body of the coax into the connector, but with most other models of RG-11 compression connector, when you push it into the connector, you can make sure it goes all the way in by measuring how far in the outher jacket has to go and then marking it, perhaps with tape, so you will know when it is all the way in.

Years ago, grandpa received a movie and Dodgers pay channel over the air. He used a UHF antenna & a little decoder box. I think he paid about $10 a month. I can't remember the name because that was about 30 years ago.We had something like that here in DC also. It was called "Super TV".

Where do you buy the bearing for above the rotator?

I was looking on Solid Signal, and they have the mounts I need (18" pair of wall mounts). But, I'll be damned if I can find the bearing.

You should be able to find a compression tool for close to $30. Not sure I would try double Channel Locks. ;)
There are strippers available to strip the cable to the correct length without guessing or nicking anything.

Thanks for the info, folks! I'm gonna try the two channel-lock method (which worked great for all the RG-6 connectors), as I don't think I can convince my dad to spend $30 on a tool to crimp two connectors.

Rotor Bearings: Stark electronics and Warren electronics are about the only places I could find online.

Thanks for the info, folks! I'm gonna try the two channel-lock method (which worked great for all the RG-6 connectors), as I don't think I can convince my dad to spend $30 a tool to crimp two connectors.



Another option is to custom make a compression tool from a good sized cheapie c-clamp. Drill a small hole in the center of one end of the clamp (stationary end) for the center wire to go thru, and heavily drill/file the other end (the adjustable one) for the outer cable to just go thru, yet catch the compression part.
The reason I say use a cheapie c-clamp is that the metal is softer and the spinning washer clamp on the adjustable part is thinner. It would be much harder to do with a quality c-clamp, heh. Youll need about a 6 to 12 inch cheapie c-clamp, available where ever chinese junk is sold for less than $10. Ive even some clamps in the $1 store that would fit the bill.

Hmmm, a caulking gun may even fit the bill.

starkelectronic.com has the TB-105 rotor bearing. it's hard to find unless you search "TB-105 rotor bearing". am going to get one myself for my 91-XG and HD-5030 antennas.

Thanks for the advice on the bearings.

Stacking Antenna and Stagger Stacking links need to be added to PAGE 1:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14593948

CM7777

Not sure if I misunderstood how this thing is suppose to work, or if I got a dud.

I have 2 stations that show a week signal on my zenith converter box, but not strong enough to get a picture. My sister lives 2 miles away and can watch both channels, although they are not strong signals for her. So I bought a CM-7777 and hooked it up to my antenna, thinking I'd be able to pull them both in. I hooked it up separately to each antenna & the signal strength on both these stations is exactly the same with & without the CM7777 (weak signal, no picture). There is also no difference in strength/picture on all the existing channels I receive. I removed the cover & tried switching between VHF & combined, & played with the FM trap, with no difference.

The only benefit I see is when I add a 3 way splitter after the power supply. Without the preamp a couple of my existing channels would break up, when using the splitter. With the preamp all 3 splits are strong.

Other information:

- My zip is 92612-1632 & antenna is in the attic

- main antenna pointed at Mt Wilson, similar to Radio Shack VU-90 XR, & all stations in green come in strong(TVfool)

- trying to pick up channel 8, KFLA, on this antenna, also on Mt Wilson

- Winegard HD-1080 is pointed at Channel 24 (real 26) KVCR


My sister's zip is 92614 & she has antenna in the rafters of her garage. Same two antennas used, yet she gets the two channels that I'm trying to pick up. She does not have a preamp.


So should this preamp allow me pick up these two weaker channels or is it only designed to increase signal strength that would be lost due to a long cable run or from using a splitter?

The pre-amp will help in two cases

1) Your signal is too weak because of splitters and cable loss
2) Your signal is marginal and your pre-amp has a lower noise figure than your tuner.

A pre-amp will generally not help with multipath or other interference.

Your best bet is probably to get your antenna outside.

A pre-amp will generally not help with multipath or other interference.


Thanks nybbler,

I know what multipath does to my analog VHF channels. 2,4,7,9,11&13 have had terrible ghosting ever since they built an 11 story office bldg 3 blocks away. It is behind me, opposite direction of the towers. 7&9 are the worst by far. Oddly, analog channel 5 is clear. I have no problems with UHF, both analog & digital are clear. I'm now getting the above channels in digital on UHF.

In February, digital 7,9,11 & 13 move back to VHF. How will multipath affect these digital signals, once back on VHF? Will I see ghosting, like for analog, or will the signal breakup?

Thanks nybbler,

I know what multipath does to my analog VHF channels........In February, digital 7,9,11 & 13 move back to VHF. How will multipath affect these digital signals, once back on VHF? Will I see ghosting, like for analog, or will the signal breakup?Your best bet for fighting VHF multipath is to get a better antenna like the YA-1713. It will fight mutipath even better if you can get it up on the roof.

You won't see ghosts with digital; but may experience hiccups/dropouts; or pixelization.

I did a search and couldn't find any info on Terrestrial Digital Rotator #AR1. Anybody have any experience with this model?
I was looking into the CM 9521 but all the reviews I could find said to avoid it.

I don't own one, but it'll be very similar to the CM9521. Both rely on timing to keep track of rotor position, so it will have the same sync issues the CM does.

As far as consumer level rotors go, I highly recommend the Eagle Aspen/Pro Brand ROTR100. It uses DiSEqC to keep track of rotor position, so it's always accurate. The rotor itself feels a little cheap, but it's been turning my 170" CM3671 every day for the last 4 months without a problem.

Heh, I have an Alliance rotor thats over 30 years old. Its never been accurate on positioning and Ive rebuilt it twice, but its still kicking.

If you need to point to only 2 directions, a better option is an A-B switch, with two downleads from each of the two antennas. Rotors at 1 rpm are painfully slow, and 30 seconds to go 180 degrees seems like a lifetime when you want to watch a specific program, heh.

The one good thing about having analog channels is it gives you a reference to home in on and double check your rotator.

That will be a little different come Feb.:) It will still be doable but not as quick and easy and I think the chance of error will probably be greater.

I find that it much easier to align my antenna to the digital signals than it is to analog signals. My digital tuners have signal strength meters that make the job much easier.

True, without the signal meter on the TV, it would be very difficult. Ever since I learned about TVfool, I use my accurate compass and adjust the antenna to the magnetic headings. Perfect, heh.

That's what makes having a rotor with an accurate tracking system so nice. If TV Fool says a transmitter is at 186°, I punch that number into my rotor controller and a couple seconds later, I have a picture. It's a beautiful thing...

I find that it much easier to align my antenna to the digital signals than it is to analog signals. My digital tuners have signal strength meters that make the job much easier.

What we need is digital signal meters with higher accuracy/granularity. I'll not lose sleep over it though and I won't hold my breath either.

Depending on the antenna of course, but most will be fine if youre 5 to 10 degrees off center.

Not this one. :)

No, not that one, heh. Probably plus or minus 1 degree on that monster.

I live in Reno,NV in an apartment with a first floor balcony. I am trying to receive ota channels 7, 9 and 13. I got a channel master 4228, but the best is about a 50% signal on channel 9, the others don't come in at all. uhf signals on 15 and 44 come in great. According to tvfool i'm 15.2 miles from the broadcast tower, but i don't have line of sight. I was thinking of trying am antennacraft Y5-7-13 but I think it might be to large for my balcony. I saw this the ez-hd antenna from dennysantennaservice.com
for 60 bucks.
Anyone have any thoughts on if this antenna will be able to pull in the vhf channels? Or another antenna i should look at.
thanks

I saw this the ez-hd antenna from dennysantennaservice.com
for 60 bucks.

http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/ez_hd_tv_Antenna.html

Interesting looking, but I expect your money would be better spent on the AntennaCraft:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=Y5-7-13

See the other thread for additional comments.

The Ez-HD was designed to fit in a 1 meter circle. I find that interesting since, technically, that dimension only applies to satellite dishes and not antennas. Though some HOA's would undoubtedly read it the other way.

I saw this the ez-hd antenna from dennysantennaservice.com
for 60 bucks.

It looks almost like a cut down vhf-hi version of a local area antenna I have in my collection. The 75 mile range claim is bogus. The only way it has a 75 mile range is if a pair of rabbit ears has a 60 mile range, heh.

Sent an email to the site selling the ez-hd antenna and asked about vhf high gain. He replied "The EZ-HD has an average of 7.5 dB gain on VHF. To combine a VHF and UHF use a VHF/UHF signal coupler. This will result in much less signal loss." Does that sound about right? solidsignal has the AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 specs at "Gain VHF: 6.9 dB". Also What's the difference between UVSJ diplexer and a VHF/UHF signal coupler?

"The EZ-HD has an average of 7.5 dB gain on VHF. To combine a VHF and UHF use a VHF/UHF signal coupler. This will result in much less signal loss." Does that sound about right? solidsignal has the AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 specs at "Gain VHF: 6.9 dB". Also What's the difference between UVSJ diplexer and a VHF/UHF signal coupler?

They are probably talking about the same thing. Here is an example. It's much better than using a splitter to combine antennas.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ

The Ez-HD antenna gain is probably dBi if I had to guess (if it is accurate). This would mean 5.35dBd.

I live in Reno,NV in an apartment with a first floor balcony. I am trying to receive ota channels 7, 9 and 13. Or another antenna i should look at.
thanks

At your distance I would give rabbit ears a try for VHF.

Ok... so I got my entire antenna setup in the air: a DIY Screened 75" x 30" Gray Hooverman for UHF, Wade UV-936SR for VHF (off my neighbor's roof) and a DIY FM antenna. The TV antennas are combined into a VUSJ and fed into a Winegard AP-8780.

On the bottom, there's a 5' tripod (secured to three T-posts and planted on patio blocks) Mounted in the tripod is a 10' piece of EMT conduit (the biggest stuff that would fit, either 1 1/2" or 1 1/4"). The Channel Master rotor is about a foot from the top of this pole. On the very top is a TB-105 (http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmmatv.htm) Rotor Bearing. I'm running about 300ft of 18/3 from controller to rotor

The bearing has guy wires coming off of it.

It's been up for almost a week, looks straight and all that jazz.

I temporarily hooked it up today and the antenna works great!!! I get a bunch of strong stations wayyy of axis, even WEAU-DT (39, 13.1-2) off axis and rock solid at a whopping 84 miles!!! Analog pictures look good, too.

The problem is ....my rotor has issues. I hooked up the controller, started pointing it in different directions and didn't get a stinkin difference. Well... it moved a little bit. Now, it's sitting northeast as opposed to straight north. And this is after countless rotations by two different controllers. If that's not enough, I can't see the antenna from the house. I either have to walk up a steep hill to get to it (not fun in the rain) or run all the way back to the front of the yard (500ft) to see it.

If that's not enough, we don't have enough extension cords to go 250 ft to the antenna, where I could plug the controller directly into the cable splice.

I'm pissed.

Anybody have experience with these kinds of problems?

My gut says the rotor is binding or something mechanical.

: a DIY Screened 75" x 30" Gray Hooverman for UHF, Wade UV-936SR for VHF (off my neighbor's roof) and a DIY FM antenna. .

On the bottom, there's a 5' tripod (secured to three T-posts and planted on patio blocks) Mounted in the tripod is a 10' piece of EMT conduit (the biggest stuff that would fit, either 1 1/2" or 1 1/4"). The Channel Master rotor is about a foot from the top of this pole.


The problem is ....my rotor has issues. I hooked up the controller, started pointing it in different directions and didn't get a stinkin difference. Well... it moved a little bit. Now, it's sitting northeast as opposed to straight north. And this is after countless rotations by two different controllers. If that's not enough, I can't see the antenna from the house. I either have to walk up a steep hill to get to it (not fun in the rain) or run all the way back to the front of the yard (500ft) to see it.

If that's not enough, we don't have enough extension cords to go 250 ft to the antenna, where I could plug the controller directly into the cable splice.


Anybody have experience with these kinds of problems?

My gut says the rotor is binding or something mechanical.

You could have a mechanical bind, sounds like you have a lot of weight with all the different antennas. Have you either measured the low voltage at the rotor after your 300 ft. run of #18 wire while it's turning or have a friend or family member turn it while you monitor to see if the motor is stalling. I'm guessing too much weight for too little voltage at the motor and it's stalling. Another thing is some of those have some kind of clutch in them, when you sync them they turn to 360 or zero and then run against the stop to get back to alignment. You may be fighting all three problems, you need another body to monitor or initiate the sequence while you're there to watch and listen. Or set up a video cam with minutes and seconds running and record it up there while you turn it.

That's probably what I'm gonna do.

Voltage: Should be fine, because It's thicker than the CM recommended gauge for that length.

Controller issues: I've made sure that even if it was wired backwards, it would of gone somewhere.

I tested the setup (with all the antennas) while it was on the ground, and it worked, so I think the bearing and rotor aren't quite inline.

Anybody have real world experience with these issues?

I assume it's the TB105 rotor bearing. There is a couple of postings somewhere that the bearing is easy to not align with a 1½ inch mast for some reason. Spacers have to be used to make up for a space difference so you might check that carefully to see that the mast is not binding with the bearing. I wish I could remember what forum that info was in. Search AVS forum for "rotor bearing" and see if it comes up. Meanwhile I'll try to find and see whats up. I have a rotor bearing myself and the CM rotor is on the way so I'll be dealing with this next week myself. Anyway check carefully the spacing bewteen the mast and bearing to see that they perfectly align.

I assume it's the TB105 rotor bearing. There is a couple of postings somewhere that the bearing is easy to not align with a 1½ inch mast for some reason.

I used a similar size cast iron pipe with the 105 bearing and it wasn't an issue.

I used a similar size cast iron pipe with the 105 bearing and it wasn't an issue.
He's using steel EMT conduit. I used the same stuff, 1-1/4 ID trade size and it was just a little oversized because of the casting flash seam on the inside of the bearing and I had to file on it a little to get mine to go through. He does have quite a load, the Wade antenna spec sheet says 16# all by itself without the homebrew 6' x 3' G-H antenna and homebrew FM antenna so he is taxing that small motor. I think the rotor control is timer based without feedback so if the motor runs slow it will stop short of where it needs to be. He's only got the bearing mounted a foot above the rotor so he could still be seeing a lot of side loading Others have cautioned about using that rotor with a 15# 4228 although I did it one year before I went to a 91-XG and 1713 Winegard without any problems. The bearing itself is sloppy and crude which is OK in this instance because of the dirty environment and temp extremes it runs in here in MN but with guy wires it could be seeing downward forces and angular misalignment from guy tension causing excess drag since he said it was working well on a test setup on the ground. As far as I know the 105 is the only readily available consumer product that is designed for TV stuff. Stepping up to ham gear is a major price bump and I've been following his projects for more than a year now so was pleased to see him get it set up. I know he worked hard burying cable and building,modifying,recycling and re-purposing used gear.

Thanks for all the info, guys!!

The EMT conduit I'm using is thick enough that I, too had to do some serious filing and wire-wheeling to get it through the TB-105.

But with the guy wires, the antenna ain't goin' nowhere.

FWIW, I think the bearing is more like 18 inches up. I did it more by eye.

Were going up there in a few minutes to finish securing the tripod, re-tighten the guy wires and de-bug the rotor.

Let's just hope I didn't blow the rotor out :)

Also, if anyone has some old Ham Rotors and thrust bearings, I'd be glad to take them off your hands :) :) :)

(I know a ham who knows another ham with a now defunct super huge moon-bounce array [on route 4 between Roch and Byron.]. I think his rotor would be big enough :) )

Don't overtighten the guy wires. You need to let it breathe a little.

Further,that bearing is designed for a U105 rotor,not a CM.They both have elliptical orbit patterns that may differ slightly.I'd spread them 3-4ft,and the optimal size pipe would be around 1-3/8" O.D. for best center rotation.I use the CM 9523 bearing with 1-5/8" OD Alum with no problems after 4-5yrs.With large arrays too.

Don't overtighten the guy wires. You need to let it breathe a little.

That is a non-issue if the antenna mast is plumb.All the downward stress is on the bearing,not the rotor.

Just to give you all an update...

We found that the mast wasn't level and the bearing and the rotor were out of alignment with each other. We loosened the rotor and found that the antenna wanted to one spot and also it starting binding or something around a certain spot.

After leveling the mast and aligning the rotor with the bearing, spins freely.

Tomorrow, we'll hook up the rotor and test it out.

Just to give you all an update...

We found that the mast wasn't level and the bearing and the rotor were out of alignment with each other. We loosened the rotor and found that the antenna wanted to one spot and also it starting binding or something around a certain spot.

After leveling the mast and aligning the rotor with the bearing, spins freely.

Tomorrow, we'll hook up the rotor and test it out.

Any way to post a pic?

That is a non-issue if the antenna mast is plumb.All the downward stress is on the bearing,not the rotor.Rotor, or no rotor; it's never a good idea to over-tighten guy wires.

Rotor, or no rotor; it's never a good idea to over-tighten guy wires.

That's correct. 10% of the breaking strength is the standard.

Good indoor FM anternna:

Can anyone recommend a good FM antenna (indoor) for a receiver? Still listen to FM even though we live in an Ipod/XM world..I hate to put up one of those T plastic antennas.. thanks in advance..

Good indoor FM anternna:

Can anyone recommend a good FM antenna (indoor) for a receiver? Still listen to FM even though we live in an Ipod/XM world..I hate to put up one of those T plastic antennas.. thanks in advance..

Rabbit ears.

FM ANTENNA SUMMARY:

Here's a DIY FM Bi-Directional Loop Antenna:
http://www.wryr.org/Antenna_instructions.pdf
FM Loop modeling results:
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/cploop.htm
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/attic.htm
A loop has significantly more gain than a simple dipole (rabbit ears) or bowtie.

DIY FM Omnidirectional Vertical "Bowtie" with modeling results:
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/omni.htm
Or turn it on it's side for Horizontal operations.
Bowtie improves VSWR, hence is somewhat better than rabbit ears.

And "optimized" Bi-Directional Rabbit Ears for comparison:
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/rabbit.htm

Depository of FM Antenna Modeling results:
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/
and a comparison chart:
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/curves.htm

=========================================
Wary of the Terk (uurrpp) offerings? I would avoid amplified antennas
if there are nearby towers (say 10-20 miles), check www.fmfool.com
NPR Labs was even bit by an overloaded amplified antenna:
http://www.nprlabs.org/publications/reports/20060216_NPRLabsFSBulletin-IndoorAntennas_MS.pdf
[Duh...of course an unamplified antenna is best with nearby FM towers....]

Here are some alternatives:

A classic review article from 10 years ago (jump to pg 57 in Adobe Reader):
http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_23_r.pdf
Note the highly rated man-sized "indoor" FM antennas from AudioPrism
http://www.audioprism.com/products%202.html
and here's another man-sized "Attic InTenna" antenna:
http://www.antennaperformance.com/
These both appear to be Vertical Bowtie antennas.

Stereophile magazine recommendations (Apr 2007):
http://www.stereophile.com/features/0407recommended/
Note low cost Radio-Shack models....

Summary of Outdoor FM Antenna specs and Indoor Antenna comparison:
http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/antennas.html

Although lacking WAF, Magnum-Dynalab Silver Ribbon has bizarro-techno appeal:
http://www.gcaudio.com/products/reviews/infomagnum.html
http://www.magnumdynalab.com/fmantennas-sr100.htm
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/80697
It's a TUNABLE folded dipole antenna.

M-D also make the simple, non-tunable, overpriced ST-2 loaded whip,
which is similar to Fanfare FM-2G:
http://www.fanfarefm.com/fm-2g-buy.html
BTW: Vertical Whip antenna works best when mounted over some sort of
conducting ground plane with a radius at least as much as the whip height.
Chicken wire or aluminum foil covered wood will work just fine.
Metal rain gutters are a not-quite-as-good substitute....

Several hi-tech mags raved about the passive, low profile Godar FM-1A:
http://www.godarusa.com/id67.html
http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/t.pl?f=tuner&m=759
It's a Log Periodic antenna with coverage from FM thru Lo-VHF and UHF TV bands.

Some people report good results with Crane FM Reflect Bi-Directional Folded Dipole,
although it seems to be nothing special...and can't be tuned to desired freq range:
http://www.amazon.com/C-Crane-FM-Reflect-Antenna/dp/B000EFHPKO

After a few days of searching for a VHF-Hi solution for post Feb 2008 transition, Max HD told me to look at the Funke PSP.1922 VHF Highbander.

It may save a few dozen newbies or so new posts to http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=381623 with questions about VHF-Hi fringe reception if this antenna were added to the list on the 1st post of this sticky.

Here is the link to their PDF for the antenna. Average of 14 db gain over 174 - 230 Mhz.

Thanks,

~ryan

I have an old CM 0063B preamp that I'm using on an old but good CM antenna. It is a 300 ohm model. It is working very well for me. I was wondering if anyone could tell me where I might find specs for it. It is from the 1970's. All it says on it is that it is 117V 60hz 4 watts. I want to know the db gain and noise factor. I don't have any testing equipment. I am using a DS 9950 converter box. When I added this preamp my signal strength on my weakest channel (52) went from 30's and 40's on the meter up to 60's and 70's. And that's after switching from RG6 to twin lead down to the power supply.:eek: So it must be a good one. Any info on this model would be appreciated !
This a great website !:D

I have an old CM 0063B preamp. I was wondering if anyone could tell me where I might find specs for it. It is from the 1970's. All it says on it is that it is 117V 60hz 4 watts. I want to know the db gain and noise factor.
I couldn't find the CM 0063B, but I did find the CM 0063C in the 1985 CM catalog:
Typical dB Gain: VHF Lo 16 dB, FM 15 dB, VHF Hi 17 dB, UHF 22 dB
Noise Figure: VHF Lo 3.0 dB, VHF Hi 3.8 dB, UHF 3.5 to 6.5 dB

Somebody at Channel Master might have an older catalog.

I couldn't find the CM 0063B, but I did find the CM 0063C in the 1985 CM catalog:
Typical dB Gain: VHF Lo 16 dB, FM 15 dB, VHF Hi 17 dB, UHF 22 dB
Noise Figure: VHF Lo 3.0 dB, VHF Hi 3.8 dB, UHF 3.5 to 6.5 dB


Heh, the CM0064 is not much better. Not much improvement in over 30 years.

I couldn't find the CM 0063B, but I did find the CM 0063C in the 1985 CM catalog:
Typical dB Gain: VHF Lo 16 dB, FM 15 dB, VHF Hi 17 dB, UHF 22 dB
Noise Figure: VHF Lo 3.0 dB, VHF Hi 3.8 dB, UHF 3.5 to 6.5 dB

Somebody at Channel Master might have an older catalog.

Thanks for the info rabbit ! I guess the 0063B is not as good as I thought if it is similar to the 0063C. Your info does help me if and when this preamp "dies". At least I have an idea of what kind of new one I will need. I'm not sure how to get in contact with someone at Channel Master. I'll go back and check their website.

I think the Channel Master 0063, 0064 and 0065 are in unshielded cases, whereas the 77XX preamps are in tight metal cases. That makes a difference if you are very near a TV station or even an FM radio tower.

I think the Channel Master 0063, 0064 and 0065 are in unshielded cases, whereas the 77XX preamps are in tight metal cases. That makes a difference if you are very near a TV station or even an FM radio tower.

Hmm, I have an CM0264 in an unshielded case, and a weak TV tower two miles away and a strong FM tower about a mile away. I wonder if taping the unit with aluminum duct tape would make a difference.

So... my antenna's rotor issues are finally solved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It turns.

Now I face other problems. Basically, all my VHF channels come through ok with weird patterns, but UHF is really bad. Basically, I could do as good a job with rabbit ears up there.

I'm more and more convinced it's a preamplifier issue. The amp is a used Winegard AP-8780 with a CM 16VAC power supply. I also have a CM 14VDC supply. They both give identical results.

I'm thinking there's something wrong with the pre-amp. Possibly a bad PS cap??? Here's what it looks like: http://picasaweb.google.com/radioguy/PreamplifierIssues#5263860636147127090

So... my antenna's rotor issues are finally solved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It turns.

Now I face other problems. Basically, all my VHF channels come through ok with weird patterns, but UHF is really bad. Basically, I could do as good a job with rabbit ears up there.

I'm more and more convinced it's a preamplifier issue. The amp is a used Winegard AP-8780 with a CM 16VAC power supply. I also have a CM 14VDC supply. They both give identical results.

I'm thinking there's something wrong with the pre-amp. Possibly a bad PS cap??? Here's what it looks like: http://picasaweb.google.com/radioguy/PreamplifierIssues#5263860636147127090

The CM/Winegard power supplies will not interchange.The voltage/polarity is different.Get a winegard PS.Hopefully you haven't blown it.

I believe Winegards are 18VAC? Is that correct. I used an isolation transformer with switchable voltage from 90-140v. In that range, there is no discernible difference. ...on either PSU.

I'll see what I can do as far as a Winegard PSU.

(btw, do you know the whole power supply mismatch thing from personal experience, or just theoretical?)

Can anyone tell me what the patterns on my analog signal mean? Is the amp oscillating (I'm thinking so)?

Are you using any FM trap other than what is built into the pre-amp? If not, you may need one to furthur attenuate the 2 closeby, potent FM stations.(Especially the one at 91.7) IT looks like you have a lot of intermodualtion distortion; typical of an overloaded front end.

I believe Winegards are 18VAC? Is that correct. I used an isolation transformer with switchable voltage from 90-140v. In that range, there is no discernible difference. ...on either PSU.

I'll see what I can do as far as a Winegard PSU.

(btw, do you know the whole power supply mismatch thing from personal experience, or just theoretical?)

Can anyone tell me what the patterns on my analog signal mean? Is the amp oscillating (I'm thinking so)?

Personal experience.

The pattern in your pic looks like normal CCI due to heightened tropo activity.I noticed it yesterday and it's still there this morning.Shove it down this way.I'll gladly take it off your hands!

http://www.mountainlake.k12.mn.us/ham/aprs/path.cgi?map=na

Eureka!!!!!!!! I figure it out.

I know the patterns look like CCI, which confused me at first too. However, the last time I hooked the antenna up, VHF channels had the same patterns.

Furthermore, Channel 7 was a very strong copy of channel 8. Very weird.

....and even channel 10 (35 miles away) was giving me vertical rolls and crap.

The UHF was all very weak. I could get better with rabbit ears. Yet, the antenna has the right polar pattern.


My amplifier is seriously malfunctioning, either oscillating or distorting so that I'm getting CCI patterns on VHFs because the preamp is operating in the not-very-linear regions or something.

The FM trap on the amp is in, and I don't see one bit of FM interference.

As I said before, if you have a Winegard Power supply, AP-8780 or CM 7777, I'd be more than happy to take it off your hands:D:D:D

Rick, I'm running known good RG-6 with compression connectors from antenna to UVSJ, then to the AP-8780, then another RG-6 line with compression connectors direct to the ground block (15 ft) This goes into a long run of RG-11 down to the house, which currently goes straight into a pre-amp, into a known good 3' cable to the TV or Zenith DTT-901.

If we have time next weekend, I will get up on a ladder and bypass the preamp completely. I'm also thinking about a new capacitor in the pre-amp and getting the right PSU. If that doesn't work, I'll get a 7777.

I have two translator (56 & 58) about 7 miles away, other than that, the nearest station is 35 miles.

The winegard ps-1503 works fine for Channel master amps it has a 18vdc output, many other winegard power supplies especially the older ones were ac output and don't work for the newer channel master amps.

Using a 7777, if you unplug it from the wall, should you receive a signal? Why i am asking, is i did try my 91xg's but no rotor yet and turned up north. On a station signal power dbm at -105.4 i am receiving at 6 bars on the Samsung 260f and if i unplug the cm7777 from the wall, i have no signal.

So the 7777 i take it, has to be inline and hooked up or by passed. I hope to get the rotor up tomorrow and try the 91xg's out more. The channel i was speaking of was 72.7 miles away. I wish i had the time today to do more testing but in a very crude test, it seemed i was getting 2 more bars signal with 2 91xg's than 1 91xg.

Before i push up the mast more i would like to try the antennas without the 7777 and then with it and see if it is working and how much. I ran out of time today.

If you unplug the 7777 from the wall, you will lose all but the strongest signals. The only way to do a true, before and after comparison is to bypass both the pre-amp, and power supply.

Ok thanks, i will try this tomorrow by by passing these and using antennas and then try preamp and see difference.

I know the patterns look like CCI"CCI" ???? :confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-channel_interference

Note: The usage of "Adverse weather", as well as omission of UHF(or higher) frequencies being effected by enhanced propagation via tropospheric scattering or ducting in that portion of article are inaccurate.

I just won a Motorola BDA-S1 amplifier on eBay. Any comments on it?

http://www.signalboosterstore.com/Products/MotorolaBDA-S1.htm

Does anybody have any experience with the Hy-Gain AR-38 rotator? I like it because it has a remote control. But it looks small like the channel master units. But as long as it's of better quality with more than a 90 day warranty, I'll be happy.

Any ideas on accuracy/callibration frequency?

http://www.hy-gain.com/Product.php?productid=AR-38

Thanks, ~ryan

Assuming it is a three wire cable, the repeatability or accuracy would be the same as all the others comsumer models that have ripped off the design from Channel Master.

Same/similar housing which means probably the same (or similar) drive system.

That looks exactly like the OEM rotors sold at home improvement stores and everywhere else. I would just get a CM 9251 and call it good.

Or get the Eagle Aspen rotor and have position feedback for the price of a regular rotor. ;)

mattdp; Don't forget about the BPL investigation and Martin. ;)

Hi folks,

I need some advice on a preamp, and was directed here after a post in the Northern Colorado HDTV forum. Here's a post, edited to provide context; apologies if I miss anything. The bottom line: I have a UHF preamp that's great, tried a VHF/UHF preamp that didn't work out, and I'm trying to pick what to try next. I'm in Fort Collins, CO 80525, and am getting most locals well, including both Denver metro PBS stations. Three stations in my area will go back to VHF-HI after the digital transition (KMGH ABC to 7, KUSA NBC to 9 and KBDI PBS to 13, not 12). The other PBS station, KRMA, will stay at channel 18.

I have two HD receivers that have somewhat different characteristics, and I have a temporary solution I'm doing well with. I currently have my roof-mounted CM-4228 feeding into a Channel Master CM-7775 preamp, but the amp is in my family room, not on my roof because it's a nice VHF filter and I'll care come Feb. 17. I then split the signal in two for my Dish 942 and my Directv HR10-250 receivers. Without the preamp, I can't split at all, and I can't really get stable signals to the HR10-250 alone, either. The Dish handles some channels better; for example, it likes 5.1 from Cheyenne, and the HR10-250 doesn't now. My guess is multipath. But overall, I'm happy with this except when I think of post-transition.

To handle post-transition, I went after a VHF/UHF preamp to replace the CM-7775. I picked out a Winegard 8275, which has similar gain for UHF, but something about it is not as good as the CM-7775 for my current signals. At the moment, this helps get KQCK on the rare days they transmit, but I lose the reliable KRMA and KUSA access I have now (sigh), plus KWHD and KRMT (no big deal, of course). With the this preamp, I expect to get KUSA and KMGH, but I lose KRMA after transition, until they solve their coverage issue. I know mounting the preamp outside could help, but that's unlikely before Feb 17.

So I'm thinking of taking up Solid Signal's returns policy to try another preamp. What are the odds that the CM-7777 or CM-7778 would be better here? Does anyone know why there are two models so similar at the same price point, and how to contrast them? They both have separate or combined VHF and UHF inputs and similar (though not identical) gain figures.

Thanks,
Rob T

Hey Rob,

Go to www.tvfool.com & save your "post-transition digital" report. Also, go to www.fmfool.com & post that report as well. You look to be borderline for overloading the pre-amp with the high signal levels in your area. Others here will be able to offer suggestions to help you out based on those 2 reports.;)

Rob,

Took a look at TVFool and FMFool reports for your ZIP code (both attached) as there's probably not much signal variation in the terrain thereabouts. Your issues are likely the result of too much pre-amp gain rather than too little. With a 4228 feeding a 7775, I get at least 13 stations that are pre-amp overload candidates after the transition. The 7777 and 7778 are roughly the same as the 7775 for overload tolerance, while the AP-8275 has a significantly lower overload threshold (~ 7dB) than all three CM models. Your best solution is lower gain and higher input capability. The only pre-amp sold that fits the bill right now is the Winegard HDP-269. I calculate no overload potential with a 4228 and a 269 in your area (though KQCK-DT comes close). It has plenty of gain for two splits; as you noted, though, it needs to be up at the antenna for best results.

The HDP-269 has no FM trap, and that may nor may not be a problem: On one hand, you have lots of strong FM signals; on the other, the 4228 has no usable FM gain, and if it's pointed at Lookout, it's facing away from the strongest stations. Try the 269 first and see how it goes after the transition. (The shutdown of analog KFCT-TV might help matters, too.) Write back if issues continue.

Hey Rob,

Go to www.tvfool.com & save your "post-transition digital" report. Also, go to www.fmfool.com & post that report as well.

Here you go - thanks! I could believe overload :-(

Rob T

Your issues are likely the result of too much pre-amp gain rather than too little. ... The only pre-amp sold that fits the bill right now is the Winegard HDP-269.

Interesting - so dropping in a CM-7777/8 might not make sense. I'll look at the 269.
What signals look like issues? Is it down to a certain dBf level, for example?

Thanks,
Rob T

Rob, thanks for the location-specific report. Both TV and FM reports are arranged from strongest station to weakest. The top four, perhaps five, TV stations on the list are candidates with the CM amps, while the AP-8275 is likely to have issues handling the top six. (Two stations within those groups, KPJR and KPXH, aren't on the air yet, AFAIK.)

The calculation starts with the signal strengths in the "Pwr (dBm)" column, as adjusted for DTV, and compares them with the capacity of pre-amps to resist de-sensitizing weak signals (such as KRMA and KUSA in your area), sometimes called "overload." Information on these thresholds is in a chart attached to a Dec. 13 post by holl_ands (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15286825#post15286825).

Depending on losses from cable length before the pre-amp, cable type, balun used, etc., and gain from the CM4228, I calculated adjusted thresholds in the range of -43 dBm to -47 dBm for the CM pre-amps, and between -50 dBm and -54 dBm for the AP-8275. The stations with higher (less negative) numbers than those ranges are the potential troublemakers. Thus it's not surprising that gaining KQCK means losing the much-weaker Denver stations.