the definitive Grafik Eye master thread!! [Text View] - Page 4

CSO

10-11-09, 10:15 AM

Does the Lutron NTGRX-1S entrance control contain a ground? The PDF for this lists only two wires are necessary for the 3000 series Grafik Eyes, but I'm going to run 14/2 or 12/2 romex with ground to the entrance control. Or do I have to purchase 14/2 or 12/2 romex without ground?

(I'll have my entrance control this week, so I can see the device, but I'm thinking of running wires today.)
In modern times, there really isn't Romex without ground, so if the NTGRX-1S doesn't have a grounding screw, then connect the ground wire to your metal box. If you don't have a metal box, then leave the ground wire floating at the NTGRX-1S. Don't cut the unused ground wire off. Just fold it back neatly. Be sure to connect all ground wires together at the box where your Grafik Eye is located.

To answer your question, as long as you are in a jurisdiction that does not require conduit/EMT use 14/2 w/ ground or 12/2 w/ ground.

kjlewie

10-12-09, 09:43 AM

VR6_MTL

10-12-09, 01:39 PM

NTGRX-1S: I'm using a 14-2 from my 3604 to my NTGRX-1S .. you ground both end to the metal box .

and 1 ground from the box to the NTGRX-1S

it's working perfectly.

ctviggen

10-13-09, 08:04 AM

Thanks. It turned out that I wasn't able to run wires last weekend, but may do so this weekend (and I should have the NTGRX-1S sometime this week).

As for the metal box and cover (on the first page of this thread) for the Grafik Eye, I ordered this online, and I have to say the quality of this box is amazing relative to what the big box stores sell.

oman321

10-14-09, 12:25 PM

Initially, I prewired my 5-button entrance control with romex but replaced it with the PELV wiring suggested for connecting the control to the GE. But, I have a QS - not sure if the wiring is different vs the 3000 series.

If you are using the same 5 button entrance control it will still be PELV wire.

ctviggen

10-16-09, 03:36 PM

WannaTheater

10-17-09, 08:31 AM

To the Grafik Eye experts-
I am getting ready to purchase a GRX-3106, but it looks like there are different versions. For example, some I see are listed as Grafik Eye GRX-3106-T-WH(120v), where others are listed as Grafik Eye GRX-3106-T-CE-WH(230v). Then I see one listed on beverlyhillselectric that states "System Required Interface at 230V," but has 120V listed in a specifficationons table.

So for living in the US, which one would be approipriate?

Thanks!

raZorTT

10-22-09, 06:31 PM

raZorTT

10-22-09, 09:53 PM

Also, is the GE QS a trailing edge or a leading edge dimmer?

Cheers,
Simon

JeffC

10-22-09, 10:44 PM

BillW

10-23-09, 06:40 AM

Sorry if this has been answered before, I have tried to search but came up with nothing.

I have a 6 zone QS that I am looking to install in my HT. I have a couple zones that will be low voltage downlights. I've read the instruction booklet and it says MLV transformers work fine, but ELV require an interface.

However I had an ELV hooked up to one zone and the load type was set to the default (incandescent) and the GE was able to successfully dim the light without any issue.

The ELV itself is a dimmable transformer, so maybe it's doing the work of the interface? Is there any danger to leaving the load type as incandescent and using the dimmable ELV?

Appreciate any advice.

Cheers,
Simon
Some of the newer ELV transformers will dim with standard incadescent dimmers, maybe that is the case with your recessed. The only way I would leave it connected without the Lutron ELVI is after a call the manufacture of your recessed lights to confirm this.
I don't know what a deading edge or trailing edge dimmer is - as a guess does it refer to when the dimmers is affecting the sine wave?

Bill

bpratt2

11-01-09, 01:07 AM

Some of the newer ELV transformers will dim with standard incadescent dimmers, maybe that is the case with your recessed. The only way I would leave it connected without the Lutron ELVI is after a call the manufacture of your recessed lights to confirm this.
I don't know what a deading edge or trailing edge dimmer is - as a guess does it refer to when the dimmers is affecting the sine wave?

So by it simply appearing to work 'okay', doesn't mean to say it really is working properly, and not causing some harm to the 3106.... or am I looking at this the wrong way, and that the only 'harm' is to the ELV transformer and how it works the light ??

Peter Nielsen

11-18-09, 10:36 AM

symneter

11-19-09, 12:01 PM

I am working on a friends system. They have an Intellicontrol remote running a Niles IR block. The Niles has gone bad and we are simply switching over to a Harmony 1000 w/ RF extender I had laying around. The Niles was running a GE GRX-MR-6 4 level dimmer. Can I simply take the emitter cable leading to the dimmer and plug it into the Harmony extender and control it that way. I have tried it already with no luck and want to make sure that I am not wasting my time going in this direction.

Symneter

oman321

11-19-09, 12:14 PM

If your are attaching the emitter from the 1000's base station to the front of the GE and you are sending it as an RF signal from the remote which would then cause the base station to flash the emitter it should work.

The GE receives IR commands, be sure your placing it on the right spot little white circle on the lower part to the right of the unit.

If this doesn't work than try switching the GE to an IR instead of an RF device and see if you are able to control it right from the remote with no emitter attached. If this doesn't work maybe somethng is wrong with the GE.

symneter

11-19-09, 12:29 PM

I greatly appreciate your response as I have little time to work on this (visiting out of state). Just to clarify, I am not using a repeater per se, but an RF extender designed for Harmony remotes that can do RF. This system was originally professionally installed and I found a cable at the back of the rack labelled Grafik I that has an 1/8 jack that was plugged into the Intellicontrol system. I am unable to trace as it runs behind the wall, but believe that it is an emmiter cable (since all the others were) running directly to the dimmer. Thus, if it is an IR cable, it is behind the dimmer. I am trying not to dismantle the dimmer at this point to find out.

oman321

11-19-09, 01:02 PM

In essence the RF extender for the Harmony is a repeater. If this 1/8 jack was being used before with the previous system (it was being used to send an IR signal) then it should work with the Harmony extender because that converts the RF to an IR signal. You have to be sure that the Harmony is set up to send the commands for the GE as RF instead of IR so that the base will transmit IR when it receives the RF signal.

Peter Nielsen

11-20-09, 09:52 AM

Is the GraphicRA/RA-RS232 combo limited just like the GraphicEye/GRX-232 in that you can only select scenes and not set dimming levels directly?

Will the RA-RS232 let me set dimming levels, or is that *only* doable through the GRX-PRG?

Hmm... Not even Lutron seems to know the answer... or at least it's taking them a long time to dig it up...

DMF

11-24-09, 07:24 PM

If I run the emitter to the front, I can't use CAT5 inside the box because its a fire risk (unless possibly if I wrap in electrical tape) so are those who are running the emitter to the front running it outside the gang box? Or is it possible to use a MUX wire through the box as an extension for the emitter on the front of the Grafik Eye. Does anyone know of pictures of how exactly they placed and extension wire through the wall and onto the front of the Grafik Eye?
Run it outside the box. Why would you bring it into the box just to take it out again?

I think there is a pic in this thread, but perhaps not. I haven't done an emitter this way so can't be of much help.

DMF

11-24-09, 07:33 PM

Triac-based dimmers can pump out a lot of EMI (electro-magnetic interference); a metal box blocks EMI.
This may not be true, unless you're running metal conduit all the way to the metal box from the breaker box, where the metal conduit and box would therefore be grounded. If you're running romex to the metal box, the box isn't grounded and therefore I would assume have less ability to block EMI.
It is grounded - if you install it correctly. A metal box must be tied to the ground wire, whether you're using conduit or not. Ever notice that little green screw?

Also, what about the Grafik Eye itself? What shielding does it have? You could have the box nicely shielded, but then the front of the Grafik Eye is spewing EMI all over the place.
Hard to say since I've never dissected one.

Anyone have trouble with the Grafik Eye affecting their system? I'd like to know, because I'm starting to run wires now and can run THHN and metal conduit to the Grafik Eye, if that's necessary. I am running THHN and metal conduit to my system's electrical outlets, and I'm going to use an isolated ground system there.
You need to talk to an electrician. You do not want an isolated ground circuit here. And you are mistakenly assuming that metal conduit should be the primary ground path.

Finally, how did you sound proof this box? (Or did you?)
Not sure I follow you. How does one soundproof an electrical box?

DMF

11-24-09, 07:36 PM

I noticed that the links referenced above are now dead. Does anyone have the pictures referenced above about the installation of an IR emitter? I would like to see the work Bpape and Toxarch have done before
Those threads have apparently been moved the the archive. Try searching there.

(I doubt they retain the same thread number, but you could try it via URL surgery...)

DMF

11-24-09, 07:42 PM

DMF

11-24-09, 07:47 PM

Sorry if this has been answered before, I have tried to search but came up with nothing.

I have a 6 zone QS that I am looking to install in my HT. I have a couple zones that will be low voltage downlights. I've read the instruction booklet and it says MLV transformers work fine, but ELV require an interface.

However I had an ELV hooked up to one zone and the load type was set to the default (incandescent) and the GE was able to successfully dim the light without any issue.

The ELV itself is a dimmable transformer, so maybe it's doing the work of the interface? Is there any danger to leaving the load type as incandescent and using the dimmable ELV?
ELVs - essentially switching power supplies like in computers - generally aren't designed to work with the low voltage (and waveform?) that the GE provides. Yours might work for a while then blow up.

In general, don't second-guess Lutron's specifications.

and that the only 'harm' is to the ELV transformer and how it works the light ??
ELV isn't a transformer - that's MLV. ELV may have a transformer in it, but that's not what's controlling the output voltage.

DMF

11-24-09, 07:59 PM

Is the GraphicRA/RA-RS232 combo limited just like the GraphicEye/GRX-232 in that you can only select scenes and not set dimming levels directly?

Will the RA-RS232 let me set dimming levels, or is that *only* doable through the GRX-PRG?
Well, RadioRA is identical to the 3500 series, so the only open question is whether RA-RS232 is equivalent to GRX-232. I rather suspect that it is. If so, the answer is, "No".

Is this a new installation? Note that there has been some advancement in the area since I wrote about it earlier in this thread. There are alternatives to GRX-PRG.

ducktape

11-24-09, 08:04 PM

It is grounded - if you install it correctly. A metal box must be tied to the ground wire, whether you're using conduit or not. Ever notice that little green screw?

Not true. EMT conduit is a approved grounded raceway unless your town or city calls for an additional grounding conductor, which is rare.

Hard to say since I've never dissected one.

You need to talk to an electrician. You do not want an isolated ground circuit here. And you are mistakenly assuming that metal conduit should be the primary ground path.

Why can't you install a isolated circuit here? The conduit is a primary ground path.

Not sure I follow you. How does one soundproof an electrical box?

There are sound proof pads (almost like 1/4 in. sheets of clay) that you can purchase from any electrical supply house (not Home Depot or the others).

How do I know this? I am an electrician (IBEW 134 Chicago) and I have installed grafik eye systems as well as others before these were even offered to the everyday consumer.

DMF

11-24-09, 08:50 PM

Sounds like Dynamat. But the real question I have is, why? The box doesn't fully penetrate the wall, so sound entering the box has nowhere to go.

Except maybe up the conduit?

ducktape

11-25-09, 12:22 AM

Can't answer as to why because I'm not an engineer, all I know is we use these pads for 2 reasons, mostly in condo situations, but one is for fire and the other sound. And conduit is an approved grounding source. Conduit, other than using it as a conductor raceway, is also our source of grounding. My question is why can't you run an isolated circuit for the Grafik Eye? There is nothing wrong with that at all, and I would recommend it as to reduce and unwanted power fluctuation that may/can affect the lighting.

sebberry

11-25-09, 02:34 PM

CSO

11-25-09, 02:38 PM

The fixture(s) and bulb(s) dictate the voltage requirements. If your lighting needs can be met with all line level fixtures, then go for it. My suspicion is that you will have a mixture of line and low voltage devices.

Choose your fixtures first. Then decide about what your needs are from a Grafik Eye controller.

ducktape

11-25-09, 05:16 PM

sebberry

11-26-09, 07:43 PM

One more quick question.

I'm not familiar with household wiring. Is the wiring any different for a Grafik Eye than regular dimmers?

ie, if I run my wires back from the lights to the wall box, can I use regular dimmers for now and simply swap the Grafik Eye in later or would that require running wires differently?

Robert_S

11-27-09, 06:25 PM

The electrical wiring is the same for the Grafik Eye and for a regular dimmer. The only difference would be if you want some extra wall switches or other accessories for the Grafik Eye. They all run off low voltage cables.

Robert

DMF

11-29-09, 03:01 PM

My question is why can't you run an isolated circuit for the Grafik Eye? There is nothing wrong with that at all, and I would recommend it as to reduce and unwanted power fluctuation that may/can affect the lighting.
Ground surge. A close strike will take out anything on the circuit, assuming it's not on the common ground rod - and then, what's the point?

AFAIK, isolated ground circuits do nothing for power fluctuations. The hot is the same hot, right? That's what fluctuates (or rather, hot to neutral).

Yes, conduit is an approved ground - if the whole circuit is in conduit. (Which is would be in Chicago.) But with HT we're usually talking about using conduit specifically to allow the use of THHN, in which case the conduit is unlikely to be grounded. Therefore the box must be grounded.

DMF

11-29-09, 03:18 PM

Quick question:

I am going to be redoing my kitchen soon and am thinking of lighting. Track or rail light for the ceiling, under-cabinet task lighting and toekick lights to illuminate the floor.

I originally thought of low-voltage lighting but then there's the issue of the expensive transformers, placement, etc...

What's everyone's thoughts on running *line* voltage to these lights and pulling them all back to a Grafik Eye? I wasn't originally planning on this but since the kitchen will be bare to the walls, why not?

I don't think you understand what "low voltage" means in relation to lighting. It means the lamps (bulbs) are designed to run on 12V (e.g.) or lower. Yes, a Grafik Eye can put out lower voltage than 120V, but that is not what is required by "low voltage" lamps. A GE cannot replace the power supplies (transformers, et al.) for low voltage lighting.

You would use a GE with your kitchen lighting *only* for dimmability. (is that a word?)

Now, since you want track lights etc., low voltage with a separate transformer is the way to go, IMO. But I wouldn't design this yourself. The average Joe has no idea about all the possibilities with lighting. What you see at Home Depot is a tiny fraction of what is available. Find a dedicated lighting store and take a sketch of what you have in mind.

Remember that each separate dimmable zone will require a different transformer if you go LV, and a different leg (120V) if you go HV. So decide what bits you want to dim separately from others before you go.

ducktape

11-30-09, 09:48 AM

Ground surge. A close strike will take out anything on the circuit, assuming it's not on the common ground rod - and then, what's the point?

AFAIK, isolated ground circuits do nothing for power fluctuations. The hot is the same hot, right? That's what fluctuates (or rather, hot to neutral).

Yes, conduit is an approved ground - if the whole circuit is in conduit. (Which is would be in Chicago.) But with HT we're usually talking about using conduit specifically to allow the use of THHN, in which case the conduit is unlikely to be grounded. Therefore the box must be grounded.

You obviosly do not know what you are talking about. An isolated grounded branch circuit is used to filter out unwanted noise and will help improve the quality of power. It has nothing to do with grounding the system as a preventative measure against a lightning strike. I was merely asking why you can not run an isolated ground for the GE. In order to protect your system from a true power surge I would recommend a in line surge supressor for the entire panel. Altough, no lightning protection system can be relied upon to "contain" or "control" lightning completely (nor thus far, to prevent lightning strikes), but they do seem to help immensely on most occasions of lightning strikes.

Now as a matter of the conduit; Why wouldnt the conduit be grounded if its connected to the main panel and ran to metal boxes for outlets and switches? The panel is earth grounded, the panel is metal, the conduit is metal, and the boxes are metal. For the outlet you can use a self grounding UL listed type and will not need to use a wire from the outlet to the box as it is already grounded.

ducktape

11-30-09, 10:11 AM

I don't think you understand what "low voltage" means in relation to lighting. It means the lamps (bulbs) are designed to run on 12V (e.g.) or lower. Yes, a Grafik Eye can put out lower voltage than 120V, but that is not what is required by "low voltage" lamps. A GE cannot replace the power supplies (transformers, et al.) for low voltage lighting.

You would use a GE with your kitchen lighting *only* for dimmability. (is that a word?)

Now, since you want track lights etc., low voltage with a separate transformer is the way to go, IMO. But I wouldn't design this yourself. The average Joe has no idea about all the possibilities with lighting. What you see at Home Depot is a tiny fraction of what is available. Find a dedicated lighting store and take a sketch of what you have in mind.

Remember that each separate dimmable zone will require a different transformer if you go LV, and a different leg (120V) if you go HV. So decide what bits you want to dim separately from others before you go.

I dont think you understand what low voltage lighting means! (12v or less????) Sorry, conventional low voltage lighting system transformers come in either 12v or 24v, as well as the bulbs. The bulbs, if bought seperatly, will indicate either 12v or 24v.
I thought it was pretty clear on what the OP was asking, he merely wanted to know everyones opinion on using line voltage fixtures instead of low voltage. He clearly states that he didnt want the expense and the headache of having to figure out where to place the transformers.
Using either a line or low voltage system has nothing to do with the GE. The GE is fed with line voltage and goes out to the load as line voltage. (Load being it either the line voltage light or the transformer in this case.)
Why does the GE have to be dedicated to just the kitchen? If he wanted to use it on, lets say his dining room, he could. All the GE is, essentially, is a switch. Sure it dims lights, has preset lighting modes, and can be controled by a remote, but really, its just a switch. I think too many people on here confuse themselves with all these functions and get all wound up in the control aspects and lose sight of what this device really is, just a fancy means of switching on/off lights.

I do agree that the OP would be best served if he uses a lighting supply house for help with his designs.

sebberry

11-30-09, 01:12 PM

ducktape

11-30-09, 07:36 PM

Another question if I may:

My current kitchen setup is one ceiling lamp with a switch at either end of the kitchen (Small galley kitchen).

My plan is to eliminate both of the switches, replace the switches at one end with a conventional dimmer and later upgrade to the GE.

You do mean a 3-way dimmer, which they do make.

Since this is a three way switch setup, is the wiring that comes from the panel to the switches suitable to power the dimmers and the future GE?

Yes it should be. But if you are, and I think you are, adding more lights (load) to the circuit you might want to make sure you do not overload the circuit.
PM me if you want to know how to check this yourself, there are a few ways this can be done and too lengthy for this post.

I guess the way I am understanding it, regular switches are in-line with the lights, opening and closing the circuit to turn the light off and on. Is the GE essentially an in-series dimmer or does the power come into the GE and the GE distributes the power in the same way an ethernet switch distributes data?

Yes it is like a switch and not like an ethernet switch.

My desires are to have the ceiling light, cabinet light and toekick lights on seperate zones so I can pre-set scenes using a combination of these lights. What I will likely do is put a low-voltage GE switch at the other end of the kitchen so I have access to the light functions from the dining room.

That should work fine. Again PM and I can give you a few tips on how to do this within code.

Thanks again
-Mr. Electrically challenged.[/QUOTE]

sebberry

12-01-09, 01:32 PM

ducktape

12-01-09, 04:17 PM

Final question.. I think..

Can a MLV (Magnetic low voltage) transformer be connected directly to the GE in the same way a regular light would be? Using low-voltage lighting would open up some more possibilities for me.

Yes.

You can goto the first page of this thread and read the OP's (cinemascope) requierments for installing a GE, it should answer all the questions you might have.

smakovits

12-02-09, 08:02 AM

Over the weekend I picked up an MX-980 remote. Is it true that the only control option I have for my GE3106 are the 16 scenes and Master raise and lower and all off?

I was hoping for some individual per zone control from the remote but that is not looking like an option. Can someone either confirm or deny my findings, please. If there is some per zone control that would be great, if not, i guess I will set some scenes with varying levels to try and get where I need to be...

sebberry

12-04-09, 03:08 PM

DMF

12-04-09, 04:54 PM

You obviosly do not know what you are talking about. An isolated grounded branch circuit is used to filter out unwanted noise and will help improve the quality of power. It has nothing to do with grounding the system as a preventative measure against a lightning strike. I was merely asking why you can not run an isolated ground for the GE. In order to protect your system from a true power surge I would recommend a in line surge supressor for the entire panel. Altough, no lightning protection system can be relied upon to "contain" or "control" lightning completely (nor thus far, to prevent lightning strikes), but they do seem to help immensely on most occasions of lightning strikes.
Do you know what ground surge is? It's induced voltage caused by different potential at two different ground stakes. As I said, if the circuits share the same ground stake, this isn't an issue. I was not talking about lightning protection in general. Please read more carefully.

(Btw, a surge protector does not protect against ground surge. Accordingly, the effect is specifically excluded from all the "equipment warranties" that may come with a protector.)

Why wouldnt the conduit be grounded if its connected to the main panel and ran to metal boxes for outlets and switches?
Allow me to repeat myself. In HT it's common to use metal conduit that doesn't go back to the panel. With a GE it's used specifically for THHN in a two-box installation. The original question was about EMI shielding, and the questioner seemed to assume (as you do?) that ALL metal conduit is grounded. It should be, but not necessarily at the panel.

Now, there's an associated question that hasn't been asked, but maybe it should be mentioned. Two-box install; the upper box (where the NM meets the THHN) is grounded through the NM. You're pulling THHN to the GE (metal box) through EMT (metal conduit). The GE can ground to its box (since the ground path is the EMT). But alternatively one could use a green THHN wire tied to ground at the upper box to ground the GE, leaving no connection to the GE's box ground screw. Or bond the green lead to both the GE and its box. Are all these practices acceptable? Seems to me that they are. (But personally I'd still prefer to see all metal box screws occupied.)

DMF

12-04-09, 04:57 PM

I dont think you understand what low voltage lighting means! (12v or less????) Sorry, conventional low voltage lighting system transformers come in either 12v or 24v, as well as the bulbs. The bulbs, if bought seperatly, will indicate either 12v or 24v.
Well exxccuuuusse me! I forgot to mention 24V. (The "or less" referred to the voltage when the lamp is dimmed.)

I thought it was pretty clear on what the OP was asking, he merely wanted to know everyones opinion on using line voltage fixtures instead of low voltage.
It wasn't clear to me. I puzzled about it for several minutes. Maybe I did misunderstand, but was my answer wrong? (other than the 24V number)?

Why does the GE have to be dedicated to just the kitchen?
I didn't say that it should be. I said it should be dedicated to *dimming*.

etc..

Honestly, before you get all torqued up about correcting someone, why don't you be sure that you understand what they wrote? A second reading - and the benefit of the doubt - would have made your last posts unnecessary, to say nothing of the attitude.

DMF

12-04-09, 05:17 PM

I know that in order to dim LED lights with the Grafik Eye, the LED driver must 1)be dimmable in accordance with the ELV1000's specifications and 2) be connected to the ELV1000.

Now, if I configure the GE zone to which my LEDs are connected to be "Non-dim", can the LED transformer/driver be connected directly to the GE? Can I use a non-dimmable LED Driver in this configuration with no ELV1000?

That's an interesting question. It seems to me that it depends on the internal circuitry of the GE, so the correct people to ask are the Lutron support techs. (Failing a definite answer, I would err on the side of "No".)

DMF

12-04-09, 05:19 PM

Over the weekend I picked up an MX-980 remote. Is it true that the only control option I have for my GE3106 are the 16 scenes and Master raise and lower and all off?
There are a couple other functions, but nothing of much use. The limitation is the small command set that the 3100 series understands. For the good stuff you need 3500 (or QS).

smakovits

12-05-09, 12:07 AM

There are a couple other functions, but nothing of much use. The limitation is the small command set that the 3100 series understands. For the good stuff you need 3500 (or QS).

For what, like twice the money.

DMF

12-05-09, 04:03 PM

For what, like twice the money.

Uh.. no. It's been a few years, but as I recall the 3506 was about $100 more from etailers.

What were you going to pay for a 3106? I trust you're not paying retail. :)

misko

12-06-09, 04:00 AM

DMF

12-06-09, 02:06 PM

AFAIK it is directly compatible, both electrically and logically. The physical connections are different, so if your in-box leads are very short that might be an issue.

Note that I'm not sure about compatibility with the NTGRX-1S wallstation (the one that uses the power wiring instead of the data bus), so if you have one of those call Lutron.

Btw, a couple years ago I talked to Lutron about the (then new) QS features and asked about the USB port on the control unit - whether it could be used to program the thing. At that time it couldn't, and you'll notice that the USB port is never mentioned in the literature. You'd need a QS RS232/Ethernet accessory to connect to the PC, and presumably their Liaison software would recognize it. (Of course, all the programming can be done via the front panel, but it tends to be tedious.)

Now I see, on the last page of the QS Design Guide, the following:
Coming Soon GRAFIK Eye QS PC programming tool
Set up scenes, zones, events, and more right from your
PC with this easy-to-use software. Transfer the settings
to and from the unit via USB.

'Bout time!

sebberry

12-13-09, 02:47 PM

Providing all combined attached loads are within safe limits, can the GE share the same breaker as my in-floor heat?

Combined load should be no mroe than 9A.

bpratt2

12-13-09, 06:23 PM

Providing all combined attached loads are within safe limits, can the GE share the same breaker as my in-floor heat?

Combined load should be no mroe than 9A.

I'm sure you could if they are within load limits.

However, I personally wouldn't do that myself, as I'd keep my lighting on its own circuit, and a in-floor heater on its own separate circuit.

I don't know about the USA, but over here a lighting circuit is normally a 10 amp circuit breaker, and a power circuit 15 amp circuit breakers (or more).

Also, it makes more sense to have circuits 'activity' based, i.e. lights on one circuit, in-floor heater another circuit, bar area another circuit, HT components/AV receiver another circuit.
:)

sebberry

12-14-09, 12:00 AM

I'm sure you could if they are within load limits.

However, I personally wouldn't do that myself, as I'd keep my lighting on its own circuit, and a in-floor heater on its own separate circuit.

I don't know about the USA, but over here a lighting circuit is normally a 10 amp circuit breaker, and a power circuit 15 amp circuit breakers (or more).

Also, it makes more sense to have circuits 'activity' based, i.e. lights on one circuit, in-floor heater another circuit, bar area another circuit, HT components/AV receiver another circuit.
:)

I would prefer to keep them seperate too, however my breaker panel is almost full and I still need to install a 240v circuit for my clothes dryer.

BillW

12-14-09, 09:24 AM

There is no code issue with doing so, but it must be a small floor you are heating so have such a small laod. Don't forget that resistant heat loads are figured at 125% when caculating circuit size.

WannaTheater

12-19-09, 11:19 AM

Perhaps I missed something in this thread, but where can one purchase small amounts of PELV from? Or does it come with the entrance controller (which I haven't yet purchased)?. In a recent call with Lutron, they will only sell 500'

I estimate I need about 25'

Feel free to PM me.

Thanks!

PaulF

12-19-09, 12:57 PM

I have pre-wired an AV room for the GE QS. I have 6 zones plus a Savoia shade in the plans. This leaves me with two lights in an adjoining bar area that would not be on the GE. I am trying to find the best way to integrate those extra (dimmable) lights via a remote control.

Lutron says I can use a couple of Spacer system dimmers and dedicate the first scenes to those lights. Then map the GE to use the scenes above. He said the IR/RF receiver would only pass to the GE the scenes that it was programmed to send.

- What happens if the GE IR detector sees the signal, will it also respond? I guess this would not be a problem with an RF remote?

- Can a remote be used to control the up/down dimming on a specific zone (or separate dimmer), or just set it to a pre-programmed scene and off again?

Originally I was thinking about using an RTI remote. I believe they already support pages for Lutron lighting. However I then discovered it's a "pro" remote and I would have to call in integrator each time I want to reprogram it. I would rather not.

- Is there an article/web site/forum area that describes how the remote is integrated with the AV system and lighting? I am still confused about the parts required. For example, if I use an RF remote, do I need an RF receiver and an IR blaster (or multiple emitters) to cover all the lighting controls and AV equipment?

I called a local CI guy. He wants to come over and talk to me about a Control4 system. Says it's better. I really need something modest that will control just the AV room.

Thanks for any answers.

DMF

12-20-09, 04:39 PM

Dennis Erskine sells PELV by the foot. So do some e-tailers.

Paul, do you want a separate control near the bar for the bar lights? If not, why not just add them to an existing zone?

I *think* Spacer only understands command codes for scenes 1-4. The GE understands 1-16. On the GE you could set scenes 1-4 to do nothing. Then the remote would be able to control the Spacer separately, in effect. But that would not integrate the scenes. You could set GE scenes 1-4 to go along with the Spacer, but then you give up separate control. It's not a perfect solution.

Lutron makes an RF-controlled version of the GE called Radio-RA. I don't know if there is a RF version of the QS line, though. Ask Lutron.

PaulF

12-20-09, 06:13 PM

Thanks for the answer DMF. Yes I have one main light and a pair of low voltage lights over the bar that I want to control separately. I have pre-wired the room that way now.

Lutron confirms that scenes 1-4 can be dedicated to the Spacer, but I just realized after your explanation that then I can't blend a scene.

After more research I have come across these options.

1. From a Lutron press release...

Grafik Eye integration.
Also, Radio Ra 2 is interoperable with the newish Grafik Eye QS Wireless (RF). Currently, that product communicates wirelessly with Sivoia QS shades and Powr Savr occupancy sensors, but not with the next-gen Ra 2 lighting controls.

Kleinberg explains, "Some customers use Grafik Eye QS Wireless as a single-room system in a theater, dining room, or other area where there are many zones of light that can be wired back to one box. It offers lots of control in one sleek package with many, many color options. If those customers later choose to expand with RadioRa 2 , their Grafik Eye can be controlled as a seamless part of the system. "

While the above is slightly contradictory (perhaps a typo), the gist seems to be that RadiaRa 2 units can be used to extend a GE QS wireless.

. and from Lutron's website...

Media room
With RadioRA 2, you can easily and conveniently turn your media room into a home theater by creating the perfect viewing environment. Lowering shades blocks glare on screens, improving the picture, while adjusting the light level enhances the experience. Because the RadioRA 2 system is an "open" system that works with many popular brands of remotes, you'll have the ability to control your lights, shades, audio-visual components, and temperature from one remote control.

This combination suggests that I should be able to augment a GE QS RF with a couple of extra RadioRA 2 dimmers and integrate the scenes. I don't need wireless access to the shade or media closet as I have those pre-wired. Perhaps the RF receiver for the RadioRA 2 can be wired to the GE QS RF like an IR blaster can be wired to the GE QS non-RF?

2. Another option I spotted from Universal Remote (URC).

http://www.universalremote.com/product_detail.php?model=157

With one address stored in all dimmers and one unique address stored in each dimmer:

* Eight (8) Lighting Scenes involving all RF Dimmers and RF Switches.
* All: On, Off, Brighten and Dim.
* Each: On, Off, Brighten and Dim individually.

This system is a partnership between Universal remotes and Lutron, and while the system appears to give individual control of each light (still trying to figure out if a remote can control individual zones on the GE) and controls the dimmers directly without the use of an in-between receiver, they are expensive and only available through URC dealers. Of course this means only URC remotes can control them. No idea if this can be integrated with the GE QS.

I'm going to start checking the manuals but if you or anyone can help clarify, it would be appreciated. Also if anyone know what "universal remotes" are being alluded to, that would be helpful.

WannaTheater

12-21-09, 07:07 AM

Dennis Erskine sells PELV by the foot. So do some e-tailers.

Which e-tailers? I have not been able to find any online.

DMF

12-21-09, 10:58 AM

Lutron confirms that scenes 1-4 can be dedicated to the Spacer, but I just realized after your explanation that then I can't blend a scene.
Maybe you can. Have the remote send both scene codes, e.g. 1 and 5. If you've set the GE so that 1 does nothing, and the Spacer won't understand 5, then you get both.

still trying to figure out if a remote can control individual zones on the GE
This from the RS232 command set: SET CONTROL UNIT ZONE INTENSITIES
This command changes the intensity of the given zones to the new values in the given fade time. The scene
number selected will change to 17 (H from an :A command), but preset data will not be changed. Parameters
must be separated by a space (20h).
szi [Control Unit] [ft] [Int1] [Int2] [Int3] [Int4] [Int5] [Int6] [Int7] [Int8]
Control Unit - Control Unit to set zone intensities
ft - fade time
0h—3Bh = seconds (0—59 seconds)
3Ch—78h = subtract 3Bh for minutes (1—60 minutes)
Intx - intensity for zone x 0h -> 7Fh, * is don't change
Refer to Control Units, Intensity in the General Information section
for details on converting decimal values to hexadecimal values.
Example: :szi 5 A 20 20 * 20 20 20 set zones 1, 2, 4, 5, and 6 on unit at address 5 to 25%
with a 10 second fade, don't change zone 3
Note: It is not necessary to send all 8 values, but placement and order is important. Use * for zones that are to
remain the same. In the example above, zone 3 does not change, but an * is required as a placeholder to
send values for zones 4 and above.
Note: For non-Dim zones, 0 = zone off, 1 to 7F = zone on.
For shade zones 0 = STOP
1 = OPEN
2 = Close
3 = Preset 1 (Sivoia only)
4 = Preset 2 (Sivoia only)
5 = Preset 3 (Sivoia only)
As you can see, it's not a simple command. But I think you could program the remote to issue it. I don't understand the IR interface well enough to be able to state that all the (non-programming) commands can be conveyed via IR. Lutron will have to tell you that. (Tell us when you find out.)

Also look for LutronGRXIT in their tech database. It's a program that runs on a PDA to control a GE. Since the PDA would have to use the IR interface, anything it can do a programmable remote can do.

Here's some more on IR:
All GRAFIK Eye Control Units are equipped with an IR Receiver for use with GRX-IT and
GRX-8IT handheld remote controls. The IR frequency for all GRAFIK Eye Control Units is
40.000 KHz. Any other device continuously operating in the frequency range from 30 KHz to
50 KHz may cause either no response or unwanted scene changes on the GRAFIK Eye
Control Unit(s).
Every Infrared transmitter sends a burst of data that is then received on an Infrared Receiver.
It is possible, and likely, that several Infrared Transmitters will operate at the same central
frequency. However, it is the task of the manufacturer to encrypt this data so another IR
Transmitter will not affect their equipment. In the case of the GRAFIK Eye, its encryption is
extremely complex to reduce the possibility of other IR signals affecting the product.

You now know more about RadioRA 2 than I do. (The GE 3500 analog is called "Grafik RA", not RadioRA as I said earlier. RadioRA - RA-GRXI - is an RF receiver that hooks directly into the GE control bus, bypassing the IR receiver.) I've never used RF, and have precious little experience with IR remotes.

If you're contemplating full-scale control systems, Lutron's Homeworks line is worth considering. Drop cinemascope a PM; he specializes in Homeworks.

DMF

12-21-09, 11:01 AM

Which e-tailers? I have not been able to find any online.
Hank's? Main Street? I don't keep up with what the e-tailers are doing.

Or drop Dennis a PM.

PaulF

12-21-09, 04:54 PM

Thanks again DMF. I see what you're saying about sending both codes. I guess that would work. In my setup I could potentially hit both IR dimmers, or for one not have line of sight. So the spacer, while workable, is not the optimal solution.

I want to integrate this onto a universal remote to avoid using a separate remote for lighting. The GRX-IT and GRX-8IT would be fine for lighting only, but prefer to integrate with AV remote.

From what I read, the RA-GRXI RF receiver is compatible with the 3000 and 4000 series GEs only.

Happy to hear the GE can take a zone dim/brighten command, though too complex so I'll let the CI figure that out.

I have confirmed there are at least two possible routes to go, not including the URC/Lutron combo mentioned previously.

Option 1. All Lutron system (except remote). This would include:

- Grafik Eye QS Wireless.
- RadioRA 2 Main Repeater.
- RadioRA wall dimmers.
(you could include wall button control panels etc. if needed).
- Compatible wireless universal remote (considering URC MX-880, 880z, 980).
- Receiver for wireless remote (considering URC MSC-400).

In this setup the MSC-400 talks RS-232 to the RR2 Main Repeater. The Main Repeater talks wirelessly to the GE QS Wireless (RF) and wall dimmers. The GE QS RF can still talk to the shade and seetouch wallstations over the PELV.

Option 2. Mixed Control4/Lutron system. This would include:

- Grafik Eye QS (non RF but Wireless could be used)
- Control4 Home Controller HC-200 (or higher end if required, but more than enough for just lighting).
- Control4 Wireless wall dimmers
(you could include wall button control panels etc. if needed)
- Control4 wireless system remote (various choices based on capabilities required but not as powerful as URC).

In this setup the HC-200 talks IR to the GE QS, and talks wirelessly directly to it's own wall dimmers.

Both options should allow for merged scenes, individual control (at least of each wall dimmer and GE QS), non-LOS operation, and good expansion capabilities.

DMF

12-21-09, 10:43 PM

From what I read, the RA-GRXI RF receiver is compatible with the 3000 and 4000 series GEs only.
That's most likely a pre-QS specification. QS uses the same command set as the 3500 series (with the possible exception of additional shade commands). The electrical interface of the command bus is identical. So RA-GRXI is equally 'compatible' with QS.
Edit: WRONG. They GRX devices are compatible with GRX control units only, not with QS.

Be sure to talk to talk to cinemascope about the larger solution.

ctviggen

12-22-09, 03:51 PM

It is grounded - if you install it correctly. A metal box must be tied to the ground wire, whether you're using conduit or not. Ever notice that little green screw?

Hard to say since I've never dissected one.

You need to talk to an electrician. You do not want an isolated ground circuit here. And you are mistakenly assuming that metal conduit should be the primary ground path.

Not sure I follow you. How does one soundproof an electrical box?

There is no little green screw on the electrical boxes I have. The box is tapped for a ground screw, but no ground screw came with the box. However, I agree with you that the metal box must be grounded and have done so. It's still not as good, in my opinion, as running EMT the whole way to the box, though.

I want an isolated ground for my equipment rack, and that's what I'm putting in, in accordance with NEC (of which I have the 2002 and 2005 versions). I wasn't going to put isolated anything on the GE circuit. My circuit will be inspected. I will not be consulting an electrician.

One soundproofs an electrical box in a variety of ways, including putting putty pads (used for fire typically, but used here to reduce sound transmission) around the box, paying particular attention to the wire entrances and exists. The other option is to build a box (typically, MDF and a layer of fire-resistant material) around the electrical box, and then perform certain techniques to reduce sound transmission from the box. This is a bit complex, though, due to the number of penetrations.

Any other questions?

Chiahead

12-22-09, 05:51 PM

There is no little green screw on the electrical boxes I have. The box is tapped for a ground screw, but no ground screw came with the box. However, I agree with you that the metal box must be grounded and have done so. It's still not as good, in my opinion, as running EMT the whole way to the box, though.

The metal boxes usually never come with the ground screws. You purchae the screws separately. They are by the wire nuts at my Home Depot.

DMF

12-22-09, 07:08 PM

You're right. I had to buy the ground screws too. I forgot that. (But you would even with a Chicago-style conduit ground. The fixture needs one to ground to the box.)

Frankly, if I'm pulling Romex or a dedicated ground wire into a metal box, I'd just as soon ground the box directly. That way I don't have to worry about an EMT ground remaining intact.

ctviggen, the question was not how to soundproof an electrical box, but why?

Now, as to using an isolated ground circuit, I wasn't very clear earlier about why I think it is inappropriate for use in the home, specifically for A/V equipment. This is not a thread about electrical design so I'll simply state my position and leave it at that.

The primary justification for using an isolated ground circuit is to provide "clean power" to keep noise from passing through the equipment power supplies and affecting the output. There are two arguments against it. First, it solves a problem you simply don't have. Second, with the various external connections of an A/V setup, the dangers of ground surge are very real.

With the power supplies in good quality A/V equipment, line noise simply does not pass through the power supply. To go into this much further would require getting into power supply design which is a topic for another forum.

When you see isolated ground circuits in (e.g.) hospitals, they use orange receptacle and are clearly labeled so that the operators don't cross-connect with equipment on other circuits. Yet it's the rare A/V equipment bay that doesn't include connections to cable/dish, Ethernet, phone line, etc. Further, it's common practice to put the low-power electronics on one circuit, amps on another, subs on a third, etc.. Unless all of the interconnected equipment grounds to the same earth (ground rod), a close lightning strike can destroy the whole installation.

If you feel that you must use an isolated ground circuit, then consult with someone familiar with the dangers. Or be prepared to replace your gear.

PaulF

12-23-09, 04:21 PM

That's most likely a pre-QS specification. QS uses the same command set as the 3500 series (with the possible exception of additional shade commands). The electrical interface of the command bus is identical. So RA-GRXI is equally 'compatible' with QS.

Be sure to talk to talk to cinemascope about the larger solution.

DMF, Lutron confirms the RA-GRX1 is not compatible with the QS. They say the 4 wire mux bus is not compatible between the older series and QS series GEs. I'm told GEs of different generations can't talk to each other. In addition the RA-GRXI is not compatible with RadioRA 2 which I need in order to integrate the independent dimmers with the GE QS RF.

They say the GRX-IRI will work with the QS, the PRO commands work but the instantaneous save function does not. Regardless IR into the GE will not work for me as the independent dimmers on the RadioRA 2 use RS-232 strings and therefore the remote would have to send IR and RS-232 strings at the same time. However, Lutron did confirm the RS-232 string commands for the GE QS RS-232/Ethernet interface will also be passed through by the RadioRA Main Repeater.

I thought I had reached my goal until one of the techs told me the QS mux bus is disabled when the GE QS RF is subbed off a RadioRA 2 repeater. That means no more wired SeeTouch control panels or wired shades. The SeeTouch panels can be replaced with RadioRa 2 controllers and the wired shade must become a wireless shade that works off the Main Repeater. It means I need to add a wireless receiver to the shade.

I believe I can ultimately get all the functionality, just a little more expensive and complex that I had hoped for.

I will PM cinemascope and ask him to check in on the thread.

DMF

12-24-09, 12:14 PM

DMF, Lutron confirms the RA-GRX1 is not compatible with the QS. They say the 4 wire mux bus is not compatible between the older series and QS series GEs. :confused: "not compatible" how? (see below)
Edit: I get it now. See post #824.

I'm told GEs of different generations can't talk to each other.Well, between the 3100 and 3500 the buses are electrically compatible, but the command sets are different. (3500 command set is a superset of the 3100.) I'm fairly certain that they can coordinate (talk to each other) but only in a limited way.

They say the GRX-IRI will work with the QS,
This is where I get confused. GRX-IRI works with 3500. If it works with both 3500 and QS then the buses must be electrically identical.
Edit: They are, but that's not relevant.

the PRO commands work but the instantaneous save function does not. So the command sets are (partially) different. I'll have to find the spec for the QS command set.
Edit: I should have looked before replying. They are very different

I thought I had reached my goal until one of the techs told me the QS mux bus is disabled when the GE QS RF is subbed off a RadioRA 2 repeater. That means no more wired SeeTouch control panels or wired shades. The SeeTouch panels can be replaced with RadioRa 2 controllers and the wired shade must become a wireless shade that works off the Main Repeater. It means I need to add a wireless receiver to the shade.
Or just use IR? I understand RF is more convenient, but was there a compelling reason for it over IR?

PaulF

12-24-09, 03:21 PM

:confused: "not compatible" how? (see below)

Well, between the 3100 and 3500 the buses are electrically compatible, but the command sets are different. (3500 command set is a superset of the 3100.) I'm fairly certain that they can coordinate (talk to each other) but only in a limited way.

I was referring to the QS (that now uses what they refer to as the QS link) vs the 3000/4000 series. Lutron tech support is fragmented, each person only seems to have partial answers. Sometimes they conflict. That's why I am seeking input here from actual users.

This is where I get confused. GRX-IRI works with 3500. If it works with both 3500 and QS then the buses must be electrically identical.

So the command sets are (partially) different. I'll have to find the spec for the QS command set.

Your confusion is my fault. I think what he told me was the QS accepts the PRO commands directly on the rear IR link, but it does not support the save function of the GRX-IRI.

Or just use IR? I understand RF is more convenient, but was there a compelling reason for it over IR?

The reasons I am leaning towards RF are several.

1. One bar dimmer is not LOS from about 80% of my HT room.
2. There are some locations where the two bar dimmers would both be LOS.
3. The GE systems appear to be designed for stand-alone use. RadioRA 2 seems to be the first product to provide decent integration between a GE and other dimmers. I haven't figured out any other way to get the same level of integration and functionality.

Using IR to the GE QS is still an option. For one at least it doesn't kill the mux bus and I could use wired accessories (shade, keypads etc.). OTOH, IR to the other dimmers has the problems mentioned above.

One other nice thing about RadioRA 2 is that Lutron is about to relase a hybrid dimmer/control station. The top button controls the local dimmer, the other buttons (different ordering options available) control the other dimmers, scenes or zones (including the GE QS RF).

In my case I would need a SeeTouch control panel right next to a dimmer. With RadioRA 2 I could combine them into 1 control. In addition it will allow me to control the other bar dimmer which would otherwise have been a stand-alone.

These are the options I believe are available to me.

RadioRA 2 Main Repeater
> GE QS
> Sivoia shade (wired)
> Wired SeeTouch Control panel for Zone 1 (entry hallway) and all off control by entry door.
> Bar dimmer 1 RF (in two gang box next to Zone 1 control panel)
> Bar dimmer 2 RF

This option would require IR into the GE QS and RS-232 into the RadioRA 2, so don't know if it's even practical. Maybe I would have to do an all IR as you suggested but live with the constraints in functionality.

RadioRA 2 Main Repeater
> GE QS RF
> Sivoia shade RF (according to Lutron the FP buttons on the GE QS will still control the shade even though it is not wired directly to the GE any more)
> Hybrid Bar dimmer/control panel 1 RF (controls local dimmer, other RF bar dimmer and GE QS RF from single gang box).
> Hybrid Bar dimmer/control panel 1 RF (for control of both RF bar dimmers).

Both option would be driven by a URC front end.

DMF

12-24-09, 06:38 PM

Lutron tech support is fragmented, each person only seems to have partial answers. Sometimes they conflict.
Yeah, I've found the same thing. But if you're persistent and ask if there's someone who might have a more complete answer, you can get to a guy who knows exactly how to answer that question. I think tech support may fall back on the engineers. :)

I think what he told me was the QS accepts the PRO commands directly on the rear IR link, That's not right. GRX-IRI lives on the data bus. It does not hook into the QS IR port. (Ultimately, the GE/QS IR section also lives on the data bus.) As I understand it, a GRX-IRI is essentially the IR section out of a GE/QS packaged for remote installation. http://www.lutron.com/techInfo/InstallGuides/032133a.pdf (A better choice might be the GRX-CIR in-ceiling version, btw.)

The reasons I am leaning towards RF are several.
1. One bar dimmer is not LOS from about 80% of my HT room.
2. There are some locations where the two bar dimmers would both be LOS.
3. The GE systems appear to be designed for stand-alone use. RadioRA 2 seems to be the first product to provide decent integration between a GE and other dimmers. I haven't figured out any other way to get the same level of integration and functionality.
GE has decent integration between GE units. You can tie up to 8 of them to the same bus. So rather than Spacer, if you use a cheap GE to control the bar zone, then an IR remote placed anywhere would pass the commands to both, and you could use SeeTouch and the QS shade controls.

You won't be able to address the two units separately via IR except using the multiple scenes trick we discussed above. A wall station in the bar area could be set to issue only the bar GE scenes and so appear to be dedicated only to that unit if you didn't want to mount the second GE for public access.

To me the two-GE IR solution seems to be simpler and cheaper than the RF solution while retaining most if not all of the functionality you want.

flycub

12-27-09, 10:14 AM

Hello there, I am doing my homework prior to install a Grafik Eye QS system in my house. I hope this is the right place to post this message. Apologies if it is not.

First of, some background information : I live in France, there's very little Lutron support here, so most of the equipment will be purchased in the UK.

My home is a two-story house with a basement. My idea is to have one QS affected to each floor.
This is rather unusual for a residential but all lights in the house are triggered by relay switches at the main panel.
All rooms are equiped with push-buttons to trigger the switches. It means I have wires going from the panel to the lights throughout the house, as well as wires going from the panel to the push-buttons in every room.

This is a retrofit and I want to avoid any rewiring : physically, all QS boxes would be installed on the first floor in the electrical cabinet where all circuit breakers and relay switches are. I would discard the relay switches, replacing them by the GRX boxes.

The push-buttons switches would be replaced with SeeTouch Wallstations. I'd have maybe 2 or 3 SeeTouch connected to each QS in a hub type network.

My question is in regards to the control wiring : I am thinking of using the existing cables running from the push-buttons to the relay switches. They are standards 2,5mm2 wires : is it a problem to run low voltage over high voltage wires ? I know they don't run in the same conduits.

Any comment or suggestion regarding this projected set-up is welcome ! I don't know yet if I'm going to do this as a DIY project or if I'm going to have a professional electrician do the job...

Thanks in advance for your input.

Best.

DMF

12-27-09, 04:43 PM

Impossible using the wired version of QS. Grafik Eye control cables are four wires wrapped in a shield. So you could not use SeeTouch QS (or any wired scene selection control) without re-wiring.

Edit: The wireless (RF) version of Grafik Eye QS might work. The Pico Wireless Control (http://www.lutron.com/cms400/grafikeyeqs/PicoWirelessControl.aspx) can be used as a wallstation and it should need only power. So no re-wiring necessary. /end edit

You might be able to do what you want* with a HomeWorks (Lutron) system where the wall stations are only wired for power and communicate with the main panel using RF (radio frequency).

Three problems: 1) We don't know much about RF or whole-house systems here; 2) France might have laws or regulations that prevent it**; 3) HomeWorks is still at the GRX level, so any QS functions you want - like shade control - might be difficult to do.

* You haven't really said what you want to accomplish. I'm assuming you want to be able to dim the lights in each room? What about shade control?

I suggest you speak to a European lighting specialist that is familiar with French and EU regulations. Start by telling him exactly what you want to accomplish, then how your house is already wired.

** Are power standards the same in France and UK? 230VAC, 50 Hz?

Bon chance!

DMF

12-27-09, 05:45 PM

DMF

12-27-09, 06:02 PM

The reasons I am leaning towards RF are several.
...

After learning that there are no remote IR interfaces that work with QS, I've started to agree with you.

But if you use RF, then Spacer isn't an option for the bar. You'd pretty much have to go to a second control unit. (Or re-think your zones.)

flycub

12-28-09, 03:19 AM

Thanks DMF !

Impossible using the wired version of QS. Grafik Eye control cables are four wires wrapped in a shield. So you could not use SeeTouch QS (or any wired scene selection control) without re-wiring.

Actually I have at least four wires going to each push-buttons box (I have several push-buttons in each box). So my question stands : will control signals work over high voltage wires ?

Edit: The wireless (RF) version of Grafik Eye QS might work. can be used as a wallstation and it should need only power. So no re-wiring necessary. /end edit
I will look into it, but I'm not sur they distribute this product in Europe yet. Plus the wireless capabilities is limited to the Pico remote control (not very aesthetic in my opinion) for controls --- and I really like the SeeTouch...
And yes, UK, France and all of Europe have the same electricity output --- not the same plugs though.

My basic goal is to have some dimming and scenes in the living room, and maybe in the master. But then, I'm thinking it would be nice to have some flexibility, say turn off the downstairs lights from upstairs. Another thought is to have a "future proof" system with the possibility in the future to add shade controls or A/V compatibilty.

I started to do some research on HomeWorks but I think it's dealer-only install solution --- and I don't even know if it's distributed here. FYI The few Lutron installers here specialize in Russian bilionaires mansions;)

DMF

12-28-09, 11:41 AM

will control signals work over high voltage wires ?
Well, sure. They're only copper. And of course assuming that you don't actually have high voltage on them. ;)

Here I don't think it would meet code to use what appears to be power cable for non-power use. Someday someone might try to hook it back to power...

There are two issues with doing so, though. First, you're putting a digital signal on unshielded cable. Digital puts out a fair amount of noise and might interference with other devices. (If the wires are in metal conduit then no problem.) Second, you may have to splice down to fit the connectors in the SeeTouch wallstation. Assuming the SeeTouch QS connectors are like the older SeeTouch connectors, they can take significantly bigger wires than is used in proper control cable, but power cable is pretty big. And work hardening would tend to put a lot of pressure on the connector. You may want to splice anyway.

HomeWorks is installed by professionals because it's pretty complex. They don't have a QS version of it yet; it's still at the GRX level.

Is your wiring fairly typical of Europe? It seems odd to me to have power voltage switches controlling relays that switch ... power voltage. Maybe the idea is like a patch panel, where you can re-wire what the switches switch?

flycub

12-30-09, 02:58 AM

I think you're right about digital noise, there's a risk of reliability issues.
You're also right about local code issues...
I guess I have to figure out something else.
As for my installation, relay switches are not common in residential over here. But I believe that usually relay switches and push buttons use standard power and not low voltage.

Waynedude

12-30-09, 04:26 PM

Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but will try. I have a retro situation in a condo where I will be using a GE-6 for the majority of the lighting switchlegs (currently running into an existing 4 gang box). Due to concrete ceilings and other restrictions, it is difficult to economically get to two existing switches located in other areas of the condo. Could I use a RA-GRX-6 as a master and RA standalone dimmers for the two additional switchlegs to effectively have an 8 zone system where the RA-GRX-6 scene buttons (or GRX-IT remote) act as the master scene buttons? I know I will need a repeater as well for the system.

Thanks for your help!

marklabelle870

12-30-09, 07:29 PM

fotto

12-30-09, 08:32 PM

O.k.. kind of a wiring and GE question. I just need a confirmation..

I have Zone 4 running the riser lights and I just realized - after all electrical has been run - that I forgot the wiring for the receptables in the front of the riser for the Berklines (nice oops, but my first so far, so not bad). It's going to be a double gang - 4 outlet for the front four chairs. My thought is, since it is just for the electric recline, I can just go from the GE to a riser light and then to the receptable to the next riser light, etc.

Since I haven't wired up my GE yet - drywall is coming next week - I figured, there was no down side to this.... I really don't want to run a line back to the breaker for just this receptacle and rewiring the rest would be a PITA. All of the receptacles in the room are on their own seperate breaker.

Thoughts?

Mark, IMHO I would be very leery of wiring up to 4 chairs on one of my GE zones. Motors are notoriously power hungry, and if for instance a Berkline power recline motor draws 3 amps, if you'd have 3 reclining at once that would be 9 amps, which is around 1/2 your total GE wattage budget:eek:.

You might want to check with Berkline to see what their current draw is on the motor. I'd just tie those two outlets into the closest 20 amp existing circuit you've already run (if you have one available).

marklabelle870

12-30-09, 09:13 PM

Mark, IMHO I would be very leery of wiring up to 4 chairs on one of my GE zones. Motors are notoriously power hungry, and if for instance a Berkline power recline motor draws 3 amps, if you'd have 3 reclining at once that would be 9 amps, which is around 1/2 your total GE wattage budget:eek:.

You might want to check with Berkline to see what their current draw is on the motor. I'd just tie those two outlets into the closest 20 amp existing circuit you've already run (if you have one available).

Shoot... you know I thought that's what someone would say. Thanks fotto. Good point...

I guess, I'll just tie into the receptacle 20 amp run. More work, more work, more work.. :-)

Mark

WannaTheater

12-31-09, 08:24 AM

Not trying to hijack, but how long are Berkline power cords?

DMF

01-01-10, 12:26 PM

Could I use a RA-GRX-6 as a master and RA standalone dimmers for the two additional switchlegs ...
Sorry, I don't know. I'm not very familiar with Lutron's RF options.

If you're using a universal RF remote, perhaps you could program it to emit GE commands, then commands for your other dimmers when a single button is pushed.

cinemascope

01-02-10, 05:45 AM

Sorry, I don't know. I'm not very familiar with Lutron's RF options.

If you're using a universal RF remote, perhaps you could program it to emit GE commands, then commands for your other dimmers when a single button is pushed.
Hello everyone. I may be able to help on the RF front. I am already Level II certified on the RadioRa2 platform, and have a good understanding of classic Ra and HomeWorks Wireless as well.

DMF,
there is no universal RF remote. Different devices that communicate via RF often use different frequencies for carriers, and then use proprietary communications as well. This would require one seriously complicated remote device. :)

PaulF,
I got the PM, and I will try to review the last couple pages so over the weekend and see if I can shed some light on the issue (all horrible puns intended).

-Rick.

GetGray

01-02-10, 10:40 AM

there is no universal RF remote. Different devices that communicate via RF often use different frequencies for carriers, and then use proprietary communications as well. This would require one seriously complicated remote device. Sure there is. Not universal RF per se, but "Universal Remote Control" has a Lutron-built RF standalone dimmer set that interfaces specifically with all of it's narrow-band RF remotes. So if the OP used a URC brand remote, he could do that part of his plan eaisly.

Waynedude

01-02-10, 03:47 PM

Thanks DMF, I appreciate your response! I guess I'll try to call Lutron..

flycub

01-03-10, 03:35 AM

Happy new year everyone.

I figured out my wiring situation for my Grafikeye QS project. Now moving forward on my planning, and I have one question :
basically, I'll have 1 QS running the downstairs room and 1 QS running the upstairs room. Obviously I'd like my stairways lights to be controlled from both downstairs and upstairs SeeTouch wallstations.
How do I go about that ?
Thanks !

PaulF

01-04-10, 08:34 PM

Okay, I've been operating under a major misconception here, and I apologize for spreading bad information. After comparing the 3500 and QS specifications, I gathered enough info to force me to call Lutron to find out what I wasn't getting, and here it is:

The old GRX series control bus protocol is different from that used on the new QS line.

The two buses are electrical identical, but the command sets are significantly different. It means you can plug GRX controls or units together with QS controls or units, but they won't be able to understand each other. They're speaking different languages...

Again, I apologize for any confusion I might have generated.

No problem. This is what Lutron tech support had been telling me. At least we're getting consistent info.

DMF,
there is no universal RF remote. Different devices that communicate via RF often use different frequencies for carriers, and then use proprietary communications as well. This would require one seriously complicated remote device. :)

The only thing I found was the URC/Lutron combo but that locks you into URC. You cannot buy a standard Lutron wireless dimmer nor can you use another universal remote. Control4 is similar but again you are restricted to that system and the few dimmer controls they offer.

PaulF,
I got the PM, and I will try to review the last couple pages so over the weekend and see if I can shed some light on the issue (all horrible puns intended).

-Rick.

Thanks, look forward to your feedback. I like the RR2 system. The only thing I find restrictive is that the mux bus is disabled when a GE QS hangs off the RR2 Main Repeater. I would have preferred my shade be wired to the QS but believe the shade can connect wirelessly (using a Lutron antenna) to the RR2 MR and still allow the buttons on the GE QS to control it. It would be nice to get confirmation of this.

Sure there is. Not universal RF per se, but "Universal Remote Control" has a Lutron-built RF standalone dimmer set that interfaces specifically with all of it's narrow-band RF remotes. So if the OP used a URC brand remote, he could do that part of his plan eaisly.

Yeah, that and the control4 will give you direct RF access between the remote and the RF dimmers. However both of these systems lock you in and offer few options. URCs dimmers, for example, are $150 and their system won't work with anything else.

After learning that there are no remote IR interfaces that work with QS, I've started to agree with you.

But if you use RF, then Spacer isn't an option for the bar. You'd pretty much have to go to a second control unit. (Or re-think your zones.)

The spacer is too restrictive so I am leaning towards the RR2/GE QS combo, or at least something that offers integration via RF.

Happy new year everyone.

I figured out my wiring situation for my Grafikeye QS project. Now moving forward on my planning, and I have one question :
basically, I'll have 1 QS running the downstairs room and 1 QS running the upstairs room. Obviously I'd like my stairways lights to be controlled from both downstairs and upstairs SeeTouch wallstations.
How do I go about that ?
Thanks !

You can connect the two GEs over the 4-wire mux bus. This should allow the unit that has the wallstation you are operating to talk to the other unit that has the AC control of the lights. Actually I think it's all one bus that the wallstations and GEs share. But I would still confirm with someone more knowledgeable than me :D

DMF

01-06-10, 05:40 PM

I'll have 1 QS running the downstairs room and 1 QS running the upstairs room. Obviously I'd like my stairways lights to be controlled from both downstairs and upstairs SeeTouch wallstations.
How do I go about that ?

You can connect the two GEs over the 4-wire mux bus. This should allow the unit that has the wallstation you are operating to talk to the other unit that has the AC control of the lights. Actually I think it's all one bus that the wallstations and GEs share. But I would still confirm with someone more knowledgeable than me :D
Yes, everything shares the same bus.

You could have one QS control the stair light and have dedicated wall stations top and bottom to tell it to turn that zone on and off. But perhaps there's a better way. Like maybe leave it on a manual 3-way switch?

flycub

01-07-10, 01:49 AM

Yes, everything shares the same bus.

You could have one QS control the stair light and have dedicated wall stations top and bottom to tell it to turn that zone on and off. But perhaps there's a better way. Like maybe leave it on a manual 3-way switch?

Thank you guys for your replies; by the way DMF it's really fun -- and interesting -- to go back and read your posts over the years :)

I talked to the Lutron guy here in France, very nice and helpfull. He confirmed what PaulF said. He also mentionned a part called WCI which could be inserted in the back of my existing push-buttons to talk to the GE QS : if I wanted I could keep the existing wall button, say upstairs -- but I'd have to change the wiring to PELV.
So a lot of options...

jetski

01-13-10, 07:57 PM

After months of sporadic research on these forums (thanks to all for the enormous amount of advice and info!) I've started construction of my basement theater and coming along nicly. I'm just finalizing my lighting design but need your help in choosing the best Grafik Eye for my situation. There is just so much info here it gets confusing...

I'm looking for a 5-6 zone unit with the IR built in for remote control.
What would you all recommend and where are the best places to acquire them?

Thanks in advance for your help,
Scott

DMF

01-14-10, 01:55 PM

They all have IR built in. We'd need to know more about your application (and your wallet) before making a recommendation.

AVS policy discourages recommending vendors.

jetski

01-14-10, 05:36 PM

Here's a little more info for you on the different zones in searching for the best grafic eye options for me.

Zone 1 - 4 can lights
Zone 2 - 2 can light
Zone 3 - 4 sconce's
Zone 4 - Tray Rope lights
Zone 5 - front stage rope lights

I currently have cat6 wire running from my 4 gang box to my rack for IR.

Based on the above what models would you recommend and why.
What other info may you need to assist in making recommendations.
As for price, I don't need the top of the line but really just looking for internal IR and a few scene settings options for the theater.

Thanks in advance for your help,

Scott

Chiahead

01-15-10, 11:36 AM

I think the IR is external on these. I purchased another item from Lutron that goes in a 1 gang box that the IR runs to, then that connects to the Graphik Eye (GRX-IRI).

I bought the 3506, for 6 zones, and it isn't the latest model (still will work for me)
you can get the 3505, or the 6 and be able to add another zone later if needed.

DMF

01-15-10, 05:14 PM

Chiahead

01-15-10, 05:42 PM

I just didn't want a flasher extended to the Graphik Eye and attached to the face, or under the cover causing a buldge. I wanted a clean look, so that is why I am using the GRX_IRI. The 3506 will be to my left, and I want to just point the remote to the screen, and I don't know if the bounce off of the screen will work, so I have it wired for a repeaster.

DMF

01-15-10, 05:56 PM

If I needed an IR remote pickup, that's the way I'd go too. Or a GRX-CIR in-ceiling version. I have a weakness for elegance. :cool:

crimscrem

01-16-10, 02:23 AM

EDIT: I've gone back to my post and edited it as I believe I now have a better understanding. I want confirmation that what I'm planning to do makes sense.

I have a setup where the room is roughly 15 1/2' wide and 27 1/2' long. The front 15 1/2' is the movie/media space and the the rest is a kitchen/bar space that looks into the movie/media space. I've attached a picture of the unfinished space as we are currently finishing it. The first picture is from the kitchen space looking into the movie/media space and the wall on which the screen will be placed. The second looks from off the movie/media space back into the kitchen/bar space. I am going to have can lights in the kitchen space, 4 hanging pendant lights at the bar counter top that separates the movie/media space and kitchen/bar space, 2 eyeball lights near the screen, and 4 can lights in other spots on in the media/movie space.

I envision 4 zones I want to control with GE. (1) 2 eyeball lights near stage; (2) 4 can lights in theater; (3) pendant lights hanging at the bar counter top; and (4) can lights in the kitchen.

At the bottom of the basement stairs, I want to be able to turn all on and all off the kitchen lights and the pendant lights as if each were on their own regular switch. In other words, I want to be able to turn the kitchen lights on separately from the pendant lights and vice-versa. And I want to be able to turn the kitchen lights on and the pendant lights.

From the movie/media space, I want to be able to control all four zones of lighting.

As I understand it, I can go with a GE 3104 and put that in the movie/media space (likely near the equipment rack), and I will need to install a 4-scene wallstation with off (SG-4NRLN-__) at the entrance of the kitchen. The wallstation will serve as scenes 5-8. I believe I then set scenes as follows:

Scene 5: Kitchen lights full on and every other zone off.
Scene 6: Kitchen lights and pendant lights full on, all lights in movie/media space off.
Scene 7: Pendant lights full on and every other zone off.
Scene 8: open for something else.

With the GE3104 in the movie I can set scenes 1-4 as follows:

Scene 1: All lights in movie/media space full on.
Scene 2: various dimming of all 4 zones (TBD).
Scene 3: various dimming of all 4 zones (TBD).
Scene 4: All 4 zones of lights off.

I think all wires for all 4 zones run to the GE, and that I will need to run 18 awg from the GE to the wallstation. Is this right?

I will be getting a Harmony 900 remote, which I understand will work with the GE. So I will need to make sure that I have a direct line to the IR sensor on the GE right?

Does this accomplish what I want? Are there any other "less expensive" solutions? The only one I can think of is to use multiple Spacer Systems or Maestros, which will require me to hit a lot more buttons.

Thank you all for your insight.

CSO

01-16-10, 07:10 AM

Check here http://www.hankselectric.com/item171603.ctlg

aka23

01-16-10, 04:41 PM

I purchased a large group of Lutron RadioRA products on CL. At present my theater has a group of RadioRA dimmers and two controllers setup, which are quite helpful. I was planning to add in the Grafik Eye (3106) with RadioRA interface and remote control to integrate the existing RadioRA dimmers with my Harmony universal remote. The Grafik Eye works with a universal remote because it has an IR interface, while standard RadioRA does not because it is RF. My goal set up combined lighting/hardware programs on the Harmony remote. For example, if I press pause on a DVD, the lights gradually appear; and if I press play again, then the lights slowly dim to off.

Unfortunately, I've run into a hiccup. It looks like the Grafik Eye + RadioRA interface cannot acts as a controller for separated RadioRA products. Instead it can only control the lights that are connected to it directly. Can anyone confirm this? If so, does anyone have suggestions about how to reach my goal of having my installed Lutron RadioRA (RF) lights in theater controlled by an IR remote without spending $500+ for a Lutron IR repeater kit (and hopefully using IR interface of the existing & uninstalled Grafik Eye)?

jetski

01-16-10, 09:52 PM

IR is line-of-sight. The GRX-IRI is for cases where the GE is out of the line of sight. An IR extender does roughly the same thing, but is less elegant and less expensive.

jetski, where are you? How sensitive are you to cost? How many wall stations will you need (if any)? Accessories? Can you still pull cable? Is your rack or 4-gang box within line-of-sight?

DMF,
I live in the gwinnett county area (lawrenceville)
as for cost, I think where all looking to be closer to the better of the line.
Yes, i can still pull cables for another week or 2 before drywall go up.
As for the location, the GE is located in the back side of the room so will need something if these are line of sites. What is the options for the ir towards the front by screen

aka23

01-17-10, 11:31 PM

eiger

01-19-10, 01:41 PM

Hello,

I am considering a GrafikEye solution for my dedicated HT room. Here is my setup and my needs.

2 lights and main (front stage)
2 lights at back of room (back)

Budget: Under $4-500.00. I don't need a super advanced solution.

I want to be able to control these "zones" independently. Currently they are all on the same switch.

If I have the Harmony 1100, can I control these lights without having the remote pointed directly at the Grafik Eye? The box would be at the entry way side wall which is out of sight from the seating area. I am thinking about getting an RF extender to control the rest of my componetns in the back of the room adn want to know what's the best route for me to take to also control the lighting.

What are some solutions/models I should be looking at?

SLCNewbie

01-20-10, 10:33 AM

Hello,

I have looked everywhere for a GRX-2404 Installation Manual. I was on infinite hold with Lutron for 45 minutes... they never came back to the phone.

Does someone have an electronic copy of this install/owners manual they could send me?

Lutron's site doesn't have an "archive" or discontinued section that I can find.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Dan

crimscrem

01-20-10, 11:03 AM

jetski

01-21-10, 11:36 PM

Can anyone suggest where to find PELV cable locally in GA.
I only need about 5 ft to connect my 3106 and the GRX-IRI unit.

I can't seem to find any locally as no one seems to know what I'm looking for. Is it called something different at lowes/homedepot????

Your help is appreciated as drywall is being installed on monday.

Thanks,
Scott

jetski

01-22-10, 12:12 AM

crimscrem

01-22-10, 01:20 AM

DMF

01-22-10, 04:13 PM

Can anyone suggest where to find PELV cable locally in GA.

Where in GA?

Dennis Erskine has a showroom in Roswell. He sells by the foot but I wouldn't ask him to ship 5'. If you need shipping Google the Lutron part number for e-tailers.

DMF

01-22-10, 04:15 PM

I have one more question here.
I tried searching the thread, but came up empty on this topic.
If I wired the input/hot for the GE with 12ga Romex. Do I have to wire the zones with 12ga also or can I use 14ga as that is currently how I have it now?

Depends on what breaker is on the circuit. If you wire with 14 AWG, you cannot use a 20A breaker on the circuit. Best practice is to stick with 12 AWG.

DMF

01-22-10, 04:25 PM

This is what I am planning on using to connect my 3104 to the wall panel:

http://www.cablestogo.com/product.asp?cat_id=340&sku=40535
To the power panel?! :eek: Not only will that fail inspection, it's dangerous. If you don't know why then you have no business doing your own wiring. :(

Unless by "wall panel" you mean a wall station other than the NT-GRX-1S? You'll need two cables - one for power and the other for data. You'll need to wrap the ends that enters the 3104 box with a few layers of electrical tape to pass code. And be durn careful to keep them sorted or you can burn out the data circuit if you use the wrong (visually identical) pair. While it will work, speaker (and Catn) cable is unshielded (unlike the Lutron cable), so expect to enjoy years of RF interference.

Why "plenum", btw? P-rated jacket kinks easily, is more expensive, and is not required for in-wall use.

jetski

01-22-10, 04:46 PM

Depends on what breaker is on the circuit. If you wire with 14 AWG, you cannot use a 20A breaker on the circuit. Best practice is to stick with 12 AWG.

I've currently have it wired from the GE with 12 awg to a 15a breaker. Then running from the GE with 14 awg to all the zones. Do I need to change out the main line from the GE to the breaker and change it to 14 awg?

Scott

DMF

01-22-10, 05:21 PM

I've currently have it wired from the GE with 12 awg to a 15a breaker. Then running from the GE with 14 awg to all the zones. Do I need to change out the main line from the GE to the breaker and change it to 14 awg?

Best practice would be to go to the panel with the smallest gauge on the circuit. When things are buttoned up, no one will know that you used 14 AWG somewhere downstream. But 12 AWG to the panel is not a code violation so you don't need to replace it. You might make a note at the panel, though. (e.g. "Max 15A").

crimscrem

01-22-10, 08:11 PM

To the power panel?! :eek: Not only will that fail inspection, it's dangerous. If you don't know why then you have no business doing your own wiring. :(

Unless by "wall panel" you mean a wall station other than the NT-GRX-1S? You'll need two cables - one for power and the other for data. You'll need to wrap the ends that enters the 3104 box with a few layers of electrical tape to pass code. And be durn careful to keep them sorted or you can burn out the data circuit if you use the wrong (visually identical) pair. While it will work, speaker (and Catn) cable is unshielded (unlike the Lutron cable), so expect to enjoy years of RF interference.

Why "plenum", btw? P-rated jacket kinks easily, is more expensive, and is not required for in-wall use.

I've been waiting and hoping you would address my post because of your knowledge on this subject. Sorry, I meant wall station (seeTouch). The power is 12 awg and the 18 awg is for communication. Lutron's technical support said that the distance I am running (less than 30 ft) the 18 awg did not require shielding. I had hell of a time finding 18/2 awg in anything less than 250 ft.

And I had an electrician run everything. Am I okay based on the info above?

DMF

01-23-10, 06:02 PM

Whew!

Yeah, no problem. Hope you enjoy it! :)

crimscrem

01-23-10, 06:20 PM

Whew!

Yeah, no problem. Hope you enjoy it! :)

Thanks. I was kind of shooting in the dark here because of my unfamiliarity with Lutron and this being my electrician's first time doing it. I appreciate your input on my scene setting too (in the separate post). I've bookmarked it to use once everything is set up.

schmidtwi

02-24-10, 11:51 AM

Has anyone installed a GE on the outside of their theater & used an IR extender?

Where's the best place to buy a GRX-3106?

Thanks.

meyer64

02-24-10, 03:22 PM

I just picked up a 4 zone GE off eBay for $150. (seemed like a great deal). Its listed as a model GRX-MR-4. I'm having trouble finding detailed information on that model number though. Looking at the firsts posts in this thread it seems like that model is the same as a GRX-3104. Is that correct? Are there any differences or did Lutron just decide to change the model number at some point? I just want to gather a little more info on this thing so i can get it set up properly when it arrives.

DMF

02-24-10, 03:36 PM

Yes, they are the same. Lutron uses (used?) two different formats for numbers of the same model. The longer format is the order number and includes more info so it could be argued that "GRX-3104" is improper since there are several varieties of GRX-3104.

While a little hard to find, there is extensive documentation on the Lutron site. Or use docs for others in the 3100 series (not the 3500 series).

Yes, $150 is a great price.

polend1

03-04-10, 11:10 PM

I'm in the middle of building my "HT". Not really a dedicated HT, but I did want to add some of the nice bells & whistles of one since there's no sheetrock at the moment. Now is the time to do it right.
After much research and reading up on this site, I just purchased a GRX-3104. I only plan on controlling the lights in this one room, but I do plan to have 4 zones. I know the GE is a bit overkill for what I have, but I wanted to make the room lighting more versitile. We can always expand later. I'll have 6 cans and 3 sconces that I'll be controlling. I'm configuring the surround system so that the entertainment center can be put on 2 different walls (wife thought it was important to have options!). So keeping this in mind, I decided to put only 2 cans on a zone (did I say overkill?). This will allow me to control the lighting in the back of the room no matter which wall the television is on. I don't believe I will run into the minimum wattage requirements by doing this. If so, I have room for more cans. That would free up a zone for shades if that is possible on the 3104.

So, all that said, I have one question. What wallstation would be recommended? I'd like to do IR, but do I go with the 4 scene wallstation with IR or put in the ceiling mounted one? Am I stuck with only 4 scenes or can I add additional wallstations for more?

Thanks in advance! :)

NJ Jackals

03-05-10, 04:37 PM

Am I stuck with only 4 scenes or can I add additional wallstations for more?

My understanding is that everything is addressable so if you add another keypad then you can create another set of scenes.

misko

03-06-10, 04:30 AM

I have a GRX-3106 that I'd like to replace with a QS series controller with the clock feature. Since the current GRX controls my outside lights, I want to use the QS clock to set on/off times. My question is, can I just replace the GRX-3106 with a QSG-6P120 and just have it work without replacing any of the other wallstations or control units? Any advice appreciated. Thanks.

Just to finish this question, the QS system is not compatible with the 3000/4000 series Grafik Eye systems. They talk different protocols. The physical wiring is the same (although I see the QS uses 24V where the 3000 uses 12V for powering multiple wall stations). Anyway, my GRX-4s wallstations won't work with the QS controller. So, time for some QS wallstations.

But the clock feature is awesome on the QS, you tell it your location and it "knows" what time sunrise and sunset are, so you can power up lights based on sunset and not have to constantly mess with the timer as days get longer or shorter.

Dennis Erskine

03-07-10, 06:26 AM

This is an unfortunate by product of where the QS line from Lutron is heading. Overall the addressing limit has been 4096 devices (within any given product line other limitations have been imposed). The QS architecture appears (no "official" word from Lutron) to have addressing limits above 10,000 devices. We could do some arm waving about "backward compatibility"; but, none of us were participants in the engineering meetings so, it is what it is.

DMF

03-08-10, 12:48 PM

That would free up a zone for shades if that is possible on the 3104.
It is, but you'd need to add a shade controller of some sort.

What wallstation would be recommended? I'd like to do IR, but do I go with the 4 scene wallstation with IR or put in the ceiling mounted one? Am I stuck with only 4 scenes or can I add additional wallstations for more?

My understanding is that everything is addressable so if you add another keypad then you can create another set of scenes.
Basic mis-understanding here. Wallstations have nothing to do with adding scenes, only with addressing them. There is a fixed limit of 16 scenes per Grafik Eye.

You don't even need a wallstation (a thing with push buttons, not a thing with an IR sensor). You'd need one if there is an entrance that is not near the GE: every entrance needs a lighting control.

Further, the GE has an IR sensor on the front. All IR sensors are limited to line of sight, so if your GE is not in line of sight (you can't easily point your remote at it) then you'd need a remote IR sensor. You don't need to use one from Lutron, but they are nice.

polend1

03-15-10, 03:24 PM

You don't even need a wallstation (a thing with push buttons, not a thing with an IR sensor). You'd need one if there is an entrance that is not near the GE: every entrance needs a lighting control.

Further, the GE has an IR sensor on the front. All IR sensors are limited to line of sight, so if your GE is not in line of sight (you can't easily point your remote at it) then you'd need a remote IR sensor. You don't need to use one from Lutron, but they are nice.

Thanks for the comments.

My thought was to mount the GE in a closet and then control the lights with the wallstations. So the GE would not be in line-of-sight. From what I can see, the 3104 doesn't have the option for the remote IR interface like the newer versions do.

bpratt2

03-15-10, 06:56 PM

My thought was to mount the GE in a closet and then control the lights with the wallstations. So the GE would not be in line-of-sight. From what I can see, the 3104 doesn't have the option for the remote IR interface like the newer versions do.

Nothing to stop you from doing one yourself. :)

I haven't got any pictures or link to a site that does, but several people including myself have added IR emitters under the front cover with a little help from a dremel or similar, to give us IR control even when the 310x is not in line of sight.

DMF

03-16-10, 04:37 PM

There are examples and pics of that in this very thread. So polend1, do some more homework.

Chiahead

03-16-10, 04:55 PM

Or also get the GRX-IRI, place this in line of site, and use PELV to the 3104.

Or place this GRX-IRI somewhere else and use a IR repeater to get the signal there.

I did this route so that I would not possible damage unit with a home made modification.

I have not implemented it yet in my build since I am still in the construction phase, but this is my plan.

HT_SoulMan

03-17-10, 01:12 PM

I'm currently working on the electrical wiring in my Dedicated HT. Currently I have the Grafic Eye on radar and located a position on the wall where all of my light wiring is currently routed. My plan is to feed the GE a 20amp circuit from the panel to control five zones:

1. Wall Scones - 3
2. Recessed ligthing under soffit - 4
3. Recessed lighting above screen - 3
4. Riser lip (Rope Lighting) - 1
5. Screen border (Rope Lighting) - 1

I've read in this thread that people wired the recepticle that the rope light is plugged into to the Grafic Eye for dimming. Is it possible to wire two recepticles for rope lighting to one zone?.. Also, if LED rope lighting is used is there another device needed to up the wattage to meet the GE needs?

Stereodude

03-17-10, 03:49 PM

Keep in mind it is a code violation to connect a standard wall receptacle to a dimmer.

oman321

03-17-10, 03:59 PM

While it is against code as stereodude states, I have 2 outlets wired in the soffit to one zone. Nothing is easily plugged into these outlets due to the crown trim in front of them so I would consider that these outlets are not standard and/or easily used.

So HT_SoulMan yes, you will be able to put a couple of recepticles to one GE zone. In fact I have 2 recepticles for the rope lights and then 4 step lights all on the same zone. Because of the step lights I wasn't worried about the needed wattage but as so long as their is enough length on the rope light you should be fine. If possible get it first so you can test out perhaps. Someone did calculate it out somewhere on this forum so maybe a search will find it for you.

Stereodude

03-17-10, 05:06 PM

While it is against code as stereodude states, I have 2 outlets wired in the soffit to one zone. Nothing is easily plugged into these outlets due to the crown trim in front of them so I would consider that these outlets are not standard and/or easily used.Yes, it they're extremely hard to get to and out the way (ie: behind your crown molding) your local inspector may not have any with the use of a standard receptacle due to its location because the location makes it non-standard. However, they might. Lutron makes non-standard dimming receptacles CAR-15-DFDU & NTR-15-DFDU and the mating plug RP-FDU-10 that you can use also.

polend1

03-20-10, 08:29 PM

I just finished my GE install and thought I would share a few pics.
Found it easier to manage the wires with wire ties during the install. I removed them once everything was in place. Still need to run the PELV for the wallstations, but the hard work is done.

Thanks for all of the comments.

Feedback appreciated.

DMF

03-21-10, 12:10 AM

Interesting technique. I like it.

What gauge wire are you using, 14?

And what box is that? It's not a masonry box, but it looks pretty deep.

WannaTheater

03-22-10, 08:21 AM

Stereodude

03-22-10, 11:13 PM

Stereodude, I was planning on putting a dimmed outlet on my GE. What are the differences between the Lutron parts you list? I could only find info on one in google search.

Also, do people really use these? I know alot of people use GE to dim rope lights, and this is the first I've heard of these non standard outlets.They have a protruding bump between the two prongs to prevent you from plugging in a standard device into them.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8525/car15dfduwhlg.th.jpg (http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8525/car15dfduwhlg.jpg) http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/9255/rpfdu10whmed.th.jpg (http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/9255/rpfdu10whmed.jpg)

It depends if you've pulled a permit, where you've located the outlet, the inspector you get, etc, etc, etc...

The NEC dictates you can't use a standard receptacle connected to a dimmer. Some inspectors will let you use a traditional receptacle if the placement and location of the receptacle makes it "non-standard". I don't know how many people actually these non standard receptacles. FWIW, I will probably use a few in my HT lighting setup.

polend1

03-23-10, 04:14 PM

Interesting technique. I like it.

What gauge wire are you using, 14?

And what box is that? It's not a masonry box, but it looks pretty deep.

Yes, 14/2. The load will be fairly low, so didn't think I needed anything heavier.

I picked up the box from a local supplier. Requested the Raco 698, but they may have given me a compatible 3.5" deep box. Worked like a charm.

marklabelle870

03-27-10, 07:26 AM

Jedi

03-27-10, 11:14 AM

Quick question for troubleshooting.

I'm stumped. I have tried everything I can think of for troubleshooting. Wiring is fine, remote is fine, blaster is fine, receiver and transmitter is fine... Nada on the GE through RF.

Any thoughts - no matter how off the wall - are appreciated.

...I use MX-850 and MRF-300 with GE-IRI in RF mode and things work fine. Could be blaster interference, make sure you assign the GE commands to solely output through the single emitter installed on the GE-IRI and none of the others, and make sure to turn off the MRF's central blaster. Could be learned command files -- I used the command files downloaded from URC's website for the GE.

marklabelle870

03-27-10, 07:11 PM

...I use MX-850 and MRF-300 with GE-IRI in RF mode and things work fine. Could be blaster interference, make sure you assign the GE commands to solely output through the single emitter installed on the GE-IRI and none of the others, and make sure to turn off the MRF's central blaster. Could be learned command files -- I used the command files downloaded from URC's website for the GE.

Thanks for the tip. Switched it to RF only and only that Line and nothing. Do you happen to have 2 PELV cables going to the GE? One for accessory and one for the MRF?

Just curious...

Jedi

03-27-10, 08:05 PM

...only the IRI. However, if I understand your first post, since the setup is working via the GE-IRI using your remote in IR mode, your wired communications doesn't seem to be at fault.

marklabelle870

03-28-10, 05:25 PM

...only the IRI. However, if I understand your first post, since the setup is working via the GE-IRI using your remote in IR mode, your wired communications doesn't seem to be at fault.

Sorry, my bad, it works if I stand in front of the GE in the room and point the remote.

Jedi

03-28-10, 09:53 PM

I also ran a PELV cable from the GE to the equipment room and connected it to a GE - IRI for IR.

....I believe the communication wiring between devices are supposed to be wired in series, i.e. "daisy chained", and not in parallel, as all run back to the GE.

DMF

03-29-10, 02:42 AM

Doesn't make a difference in this case. The GE is the middle node in the daisy chain.

Jedi

03-30-10, 11:02 AM

...Mark, another possibility, if you happened to have cut and soldered that particular emitter lead during installation, it's possible the polarity may have been reversed. The emitters must see the correct polarity -- I've done this before, where I needed a long run between the MRF and the emitter location, and nothing worked until I reversed the polarity on my solder connection.

practicalht

03-30-10, 11:43 AM

Does anyone have 50 feet of either Lutron GRX-CBL-346S or Liberty Cable Lutron-GRN that they would sell me? Paypal would be the easiest method of payment.

premiertrussman

04-08-10, 01:37 PM

Can you control a fan with a GRX-3104 just as is out of the box. For instance, i have 3 zones worth of lights...and i have a 4 zone controller, can i just put the fan on the 4th zone as long as its not dimmed?

DMF

04-10-10, 03:03 PM

I doubt it. A motor is a much different load than an incandescent lamp. To be sure, call Lutron tech support.

premiertrussman

04-10-10, 06:37 PM

I doubt it. A motor is a much different load than an incandescent lamp. To be sure, call Lutron tech support.

Figured as much, just thought maybe someone would know somethin i didnt.

I guess ill just put a fan swtich next to the GE.

oman321

04-12-10, 08:57 AM

You can at least automate it.
http://www.grafikeye.in/CMS400/pagebuynow.aspx?id=16949&mn=1803

Like DMF said though may be worth a call to support.

davey_fl

04-15-10, 12:43 PM

I'm moving this post into this thread as it deals with using (or not) the Grafik eye.

So I'm about to start building my theater and I'm trying to figure out if I should wire this room with a Grafik Eye or stick to my HAI/ALC install. The HAI/ALC install is basically a home automation panel than among other things controls the lighting in my home. Each switch for each light load is controlled via a CAT5 wire, allowing you to write logic as to when the light should come on, ramp rate etc. Basically the room will have 6 zones of lighting. I can either run a grafik eye to control the zones, and possibly use some universal IR device to control it, or I can set each individual lighting zone on an ALC dimmer, controlled via HAI (home automation), controlled via a touchscreen. Thoughts? Suggestions?

Thanks

oman321

04-15-10, 03:16 PM

2 very different approaches to your lighting solution. I would say that it depends on how you want to go about automating everything. The GE would look a lot nicer/cleaner over a bank of 6 switches if you are going to have the unit visible. If you will have the unit in lets say a closet, then astetics wont really matter. While you can control your GE with an IR remote or IR accessory, most if not all automation systems will offer you some sort of adapter to go to IR which will allow you to still control your GE.

If you plan to automate the rest of your homes lighting I would say it would probably be easier to go with the same solution through out. You can probably start out with an Insteon system and expand it as you go or can.

I really like the GE and I use it to control 6 zones in my basment 3 inside the theater 3 outside. It's placed just outside my HT room entrance. With a GRX-CIR-WH which is an IR accessory I am able to fully control it from within the theater. I would go with this setup if I had to do it all over again for just basement and HT, but I do like what Insteon has to offer especially with the capability to control lighting when your away from home thru WI-FI and having the ability to use I-touch/pod and now the I-Pad. If I were doing my entire home I would go with that for a solution.

premiertrussman

04-17-10, 09:17 PM

I've got a 3106 on the way. Im super excited. so many button to push.

premiertrussman

04-21-10, 02:51 PM

Can anyone tell me what the minimum wattage is per zone to dim properly an a 3106. I hand't realized there was a minimum wattage requirement till i just read it somewhere, could put a damper on some of my plans....lol...

oman321

04-21-10, 05:54 PM

I may be wrong but I believe it is 25 watt minimum for it to work properly. There is an accessory you can add to make up the difference when the time comes, or keep adding lights;)

DMF

04-21-10, 08:20 PM

Have you considered reading the product documentation?

bpratt2

04-21-10, 08:31 PM

Have you considered reading the product documentation?

What a novel idea! ;)

I guess if all else fails, read the instruction manual. :P

premiertrussman

04-21-10, 09:32 PM

I may be wrong but I believe it is 25 watt minimum for it to work properly. There is an accessory you can add to make up the difference when the time comes, or keep adding lights;)

Thanks oman, helpful as always. :-) Ive got a small picture frame accent type light im putting over my A/V rack and I was planning on putting it on its own leg but it only had 2-15 watt bulbs, and i started read about this minimum load requirment i wanted to make sure it would still work. If you are right i guess ill be fine.

Have you considered reading the product documentation?

Ive tried, ive looked at 2 or 3 documents online, including a spec sheet, installation instructions, and like a general overview...and i cant find anything like an owners manual or something like that online, i may just be looking in the wrong spot...

I know theres a maximum load of 800 watts per zone with a max of 2000 total on the 3106, and what type of loads i can use blah blah blah, but I've never seen anywhere about the minimum load required for dimming, except here and there in a few threads i've read that stated there is a minimum load requirment but noone was saying what it was...so i figured it would be a simple thing for someone else who already new to tell me...mine is still in the mail...so i havent had a chance to look at any documentation that will come with it, and im tryin to decide how to wire for accent lighting over my A/V rack.

But thanks for the suggestion.....

DMF

04-22-10, 02:16 PM

premiertrussman

04-22-10, 02:33 PM

Installation Guide, p.2 ("Step 1"): "Not all zones need to be connected; however, connected zones must have a load of at least 25W (40W for AU and CE models)." right before the 800W maximum.

It's also in App Note (http://lutron.com/cms400/page.aspx?id=17775) S7.

Interestingly, I haven't been able to find it anywhere else.

Lol... touché...:o...

I must have skimmed over it 2 or 3 times. I was looking at the charts not the step by step instructions, i guess thats what i get for not being thorough. I guess i would have eventually found it when i went to install it. It just came in the mail about 3 hours ago.

DMF

04-22-10, 03:55 PM

Have you found the GRAFIK Eye® 3000 Training Segments videos on the Technical Info page (http://lutron.com/cms400/default.aspx?app=technicalinfo)? They're not about installation, but how to use it.

premiertrussman

04-22-10, 04:17 PM

I had not seen those, thanks.

marklabelle870

04-27-10, 05:04 AM

Quick question for troubleshooting.

I have a GE 3400 series and I ran the PELV cable from the GE to an accesorry panel in the lobby. Everything works fine from that perspective. I can control all scenes, etc. I also ran a PELV cable from the GE to the equipment room and connected it to a GE - IRI for IR. I then ran an IR blaster from the URC MRF-350 to the GE-IRI and pasted it on the back of the unit. So to recap, I have 2 PELV's out of the GE - one to accessory - one to the GE-IRI unit.

Here's my problem. I can control the GE in the room using IR. However, if I turn off the IR on the URC MX-980 and try and use RF - nothing works. The green light on the GE-IRI unit blinks, the MRF-350 blinks, the RF receiver blinks, but no scene changes.

I'm stumped. I have tried everything I can think of for troubleshooting. Wiring is fine, remote is fine, blaster is fine, receiver and transmitter is fine... Nada on the GE through RF.

Any thoughts - no matter how off the wall - are appreciated.

Thanks,

Mark

Well I now got the IRI to work with the GE. I had to set the dip switch on the IRI to 9 per the manual and then address the GE to an address (I used A1). NICE! Everything works on the IR side.

My problem now is that the accessory panel in the lobby won't control any scenes at all. I opened up the accessory panel and then addressed it on the 4 dip switches as 1. So to recap:

IRI - Dip Switches 1 and 9
GE - Addressed as A1
Accessory Panel - Dip Switch 1

I've tried all the switches on the accessory panel and nothing. Just the Scene 3 on the panel lights up, but I can't control anything. The manuals just aren't that clear to me. Must be user error. When the GE was not addressed as A1 the accessory panel worked fine.

Any thoughts on what to set the Accessory panel as?

DMF

04-28-10, 12:46 PM

"accessory panel"

You mean wallstation? Which one do you have?

CSO

04-30-10, 03:03 PM

Here are some detail pictures of Lutron's lighting use only receptacle (http://www.lutron.com/NovaT/#accs)for connection to dimmers (i.e. Grafik Eye controllers). This is Lutron model NTR-15-DFDU. Internally, it is a Cooper (Arrow Hart) 6262 receptacle (http://solutions.cooperwiringdevices.com/common/brands.cfm?pg=Detail&brandName=CWD Industrial&category=Straight%20Blade%20Receptacles%3A%20Industrial%20Gr ade%3A%20ArrowLink%E2%84%A2%20Duplex%20%26%20Single%20Recept acles&id=16866)with a custom face plate. It is a very nice device with clamp style connectors. Solid. Note the duplex outlet has break off tabs to electrically separate the top from the bottom. Lutron packages this receptacle with a single gang screwless wall plate. The outlet is available in 15A and 20A versions as well as a hybrid face with only one lighting outlet.

http://home.comcast.net/~corthoefer/house/NTR-15%20face.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~corthoefer/house/NTR-15%20rear.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~corthoefer/house/NTR-15%20side.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~corthoefer/house/NTR-15%20side2.JPG

DMF

04-30-10, 04:04 PM

It requires a special plug. (Included?) Price?

CSO

05-01-10, 07:09 PM

More pictures of the dedicated lighting outlet. The mating plug is Lutron's RP-FDU-10 (http://www.lutron.com/NovaT/#accs)which was $12 at Hank's electric (http://www.hankselectric.net/detail.aspx?ID=5512). The outlet was $28.60 at Hank's (http://www.hankselectric.net/detail.aspx?ID=5693). The bad thing about the plug is that it only accepts zipcord.

http://home.comcast.net/~corthoefer/house/LutronOutletPlug.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~corthoefer/house/LutronOutletPlug2.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~corthoefer/house/RP-FDU-10.JPG

kkrull

05-06-10, 10:16 AM

I am considering a mixed Homeworks \ Grafik Eye QS environment and hoped to get a few pointers from the group. My home is a large 70s modern remodel. Some walls are open but will soon be closed. Many are shimmed on concrete. I am looking to put a home theater in with basic lighting, six shades and six blackout shades. I also need to control six shades on the room above. I would prefer not to stray from Homeworks and Grafik Eye QS, since those two platforms are supported by my automation system(s). For personal reasons I would prefer not to use RF lights. Here are my main questions...

1. The reason for Homeworks is that, as a remodel, the house has a lot of single gang lights that I would like to control. Home running control cable to those is relatively simple. But rerouting line voltage from multiple lights to a GE QS box would be tough. I don't need to control them from a single spot on the wall. Is this logic correct?

2. The reason for Grafik Eye QS is that it seems like a more futureproof platform for things that don't exist yet, like new light runs and shading. It also seems like a cleaner solution for an existing four or five gang box, especially where some switches are double so there isn't enough room for all single homeworks dimmers anyway. True?

3. Can I run three sets of six shades from one QS and just wire a controller for the room directly above?

4. Any special wiring to, from or between QS units besides the line voltage, and the four pair shielded for remote wall plates? Do they all need ethernet for third party automation? Or do they need four pair shielded in series and just one ethernet for third party automation?

5. I think that I can wire my garage door opener and natural gas fireplace on lutron homeworks switches and check their state and control them from a third party platform. I assume that nothing like this exists for GE QS.

6. I like the satin finishes. I know the homeworks keypad is available in satin white (snow). Does the homework maestro switch come in that same satin white to match the GE QS?

7. Finally, I assume that there is no Lutron integration between homeworks and Grafik Eye QS.

DMF

05-06-10, 04:39 PM

"I would prefer not to use RF lights." What are RF lights?

1. "single gang outlets"? As a rule you don't control an outlet from a dimmer. Most things that plug into outlets will fry either themselves or the dimmer. What are on these outlets that you do want to control?

2. One of us isn't following something. Please explain. Lights are lights; they're not going to change. And if I'm understanding you correctly, you're mapping an individual lamp (or whatever is on an individual switch) to a controller zone?

3. "Can I run three sets of six shades from one QS" You mean Lutron shades? I think so, but check the specs.
" and just wire a controller for the room directly above?" You could do either, but consider function. Is there any reason to synchronize control of shades on two floors? What about future expansion? What about lights?

4. QS (or older Grafik Eye) control units do not need to be on the same power leg, if that's what you mean. If you want them to interoperate, you'll need to connect them with the data cable (and then set addresses, etc.)

5. No idea.

6. Probably. Check the catalog.

7. No. The data buses use different protocols.

I get the impression you're thinking of QS solely as a shade controller. That's massive under-utilization. For a theater you should also integrate it with the lighting. If that means re-running power to some lights (and why should it as few rooms are properly lighted for HT function - you'll need to install new), then bite the bullet and do it while you have the walls open.

You haven't described enough functions to justify Homeworks so I don't know how you'll be using it. But be aware that existing Homeworks is built on older Grafik Eye technology (which is why it's incompatible with QS). A new Homeworks built on QS technology is due soon.

You might be better served by
integrating older GE with current Homeworks (I'd much rather have GE control units managing groups of fixtures than single dimmers all over the place),
using only Homeworks (yes it can control shades too),
using QS and waiting on the new Homeworks (I'd use the RF version of QS in this case)

You won't get many answers about Homeworks here, btw. Like the 4000+ series GEs, Lutron does not consider it a user-installable system. If you really want a whole-house system, you would be well served to hire a professional.

kkrull

05-06-10, 06:00 PM

DMF - Thanks for the quick reply...

"I would prefer not to use RF lights." What are RF lights?

I meant light switches like RadioRA that communicate on RF.

1. "single gang outlets"? As a rule you don't control an outlet from a dimmer. Most things that plug into outlets will fry either themselves or the dimmer. What are on these outlets that you do want to control?

I should have said lighting switches in a single gang box. I have edited my post to clear up where I wasn't using the right terminology.

2. One of us isn't following something. Please explain. Lights are lights; they're not going to change. And if I'm understanding you correctly, you're mapping an individual lamp (or whatever is on an individual switch) to a controller zone?

My point was that where the lights are not yet installed its easy to run wires to put them all in one switch, as opposed to my current installation in single gang boxes all over that I would have to tear out and re-drywall to move.

3. "Can I run three sets of six shades from one QS" You mean Lutron shades? I think so, but check the specs.
" and just wire a controller for the room directly above?" You could do either, but consider function. Is there any reason to synchronize control of shades on two floors? What about future expansion? What about lights?

Cost is the only reason. Yeah, the room has lights but I probably won't use any scenes. Certainly I won't use any on wall controllers to enact a scene. Maybe I would use the automation platform to map a light and a shade to a button on an ipad or other remote.

6. Probably. Check the catalog.

I can't really tell from the availability of that color and that product from the online catalog. If noone knows offhand, I will call and ask.

I get the impression you're thinking of QS solely as a shade controller. That's massive under-utilization. For a theater you should also integrate it with the lighting. If that means re-running power to some lights (and why should it as few rooms are properly lighted for HT function - you'll need to install new), then bite the bullet and do it while you have the walls open.

No I realize it does lights and scenes, but I don't think that wall controlled scenes would be worth the trouble.

You haven't described enough functions to justify Homeworks so I don't know how you'll be using it. But be aware that existing Homeworks is built on older Grafik Eye technology (which is why it's incompatible with QS). A new Homeworks built on QS technology is due soon.

I would be curious if anyone is speculating as to how the new homeworks QS would be different? Same topography but different protocol? Having a central controller on standard decora size switches is really handy in my remodel case.

You won't get many answers about Homeworks here, btw. Like the 4000+ series GEs, Lutron does not consider it a user-installable system. If you really want a whole-house system, you would be well served to hire a professional.

I guess the difference is homeworks is entire home and GE QS is for one room. Probably obvious to everyone else. I never really thought about it. I am more of a do it yourself guy.

DMF

05-06-10, 07:09 PM

If I'm not mistaken, isn't Homeworks predominately RF?
Edit: It's both wired and RF. Since you're a remodel, the wired bit seems to have little application.
Btw, I trust you've found this page (http://www.lutron.com/cms400/default.aspx?app=TechnicalInfo)? From looking at the catalogs you'd never know what the full systems can do, except look pretty...

Is there any reason to synchronize control of shades on two floors?
Cost is the only reason. Yeah, the room has lights but I probably won't use any scenes. Certainly I won't use any on wall controllers to enact a scene. Maybe I would use the automation platform to map a light and a shade to a button on an ipad or other remote.
Then forget about using a controller (such as QS) altogether and install a simple shade control. Using an automation controller of some form to activate the control seems appropriate.

I don't need to control them from a single spot on the wall. Is this logic correct?
No I realize it [QS] does lights and scenes, but I don't think that wall controlled scenes would be worth the trouble.
I am formally confused as to why you're choosing QS and/or Homeworks. Forget about how it's to be done, just tell us what you want to do. Do you only want to turn your lights on and off? Dim them? In groups or singlely? At the same time as your shades?

The classic vision for theater control is to push a button and have the house lights dim, the shades drop, and a movie come up on the screen. When it's finished push another button and shades go up and the lights go on.

And what about outside the theater? If you just want to be able to activate an existing switch remotely, then you aren't scratching the surface of what a whole-house system can do. Most of its raison d'être is coordination of function. But you haven't described a single coordinated function.

Turn the outside lights on at dusk? Then off at midnight?

What about a Panic button? All lights on full - inside and out - shades up. All room controls locked out. Surveillance cameras on Record.

These things can be done.

I guess the difference is homeworks is entire home and GE QS is for one room.
In terms of design scope that is true, but in terms of application it's not. There's nothing limiting QS to one room. It doesn't even have to be located in the space where it's controlled. Think of GE/QS as one element of a whole-house system. You can gang up to 8 together to make up your own whole-house system. But the investment in learning how and the expense of covering your mistakes is considerable.

That's why Lutron is set up for professional installation of whole-house systems. First, it's very difficult to convey what such a system can and can't do. Second, they can be quite difficult to specify and even more difficult to get working smoothly. Even if you do your own installation, it would pay you to have a pro design and spec the system for you.

sebberry

05-09-10, 03:37 PM

sebberry

05-09-10, 03:46 PM

Quick question about the wireless system Lutron uses.

I live in a condo and while I highly doubt anyone else is using a Lutron wireless automation system, is it designed in such a way that neighboring systems won't interfere with eachother?

Thanks.

Just answered my own question:

From the Lutron brochure
"Unique codes per household means co-located systems will
not cross-talk"

:)

BillW

05-10-10, 07:45 AM

That's right, when you are in the activate mode the Radio Ra sends out a signal looking for other devices that are using the same code. If another device is already using it the RadioRa switches to another code and checks again - until a clear code set is found.
If down the road you thought you were being interfered with by another device you could go thru the activate mode in the startup program to get the RR to change codes.

Bill

sathyakamaraj

05-11-10, 11:53 AM

GRX-IA-6-A-B - I am watching this item on beay...But I cant find any documents online...I am sorry i am not familiar with Grafik Eye model numbers..all i knoe 3000,3500
help me out..

oman321

05-11-10, 04:28 PM

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=557480&page=4

According to post 91 on page 4 of this thread it is the equivelant of a GRX 3506.

http://www.lutron.com/techInfo/SpecSheets/GRX3000EAa200007.pdf

According to the pdf document, set up must be made via a pc.

sathyakamaraj

05-11-10, 04:56 PM

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=557480&page=4

According to the pdf document, set up must be made via a pc.
Thanks ......

Bjelland

05-13-10, 03:33 PM

Hello. I'm building a basement home theater and have four lighting zones I want to control from a single point with a GRX (no extra wall stations). I would like to use a Logitech Harmony 1100 universal remote to control the GRX. Which GRX (and/or accessories) is right for me and what is the difference between Grafik Eye & Grafik Eye QS?

sathyakamaraj

05-15-10, 10:04 PM

Please help me out : Urgent

GRX 6 zone 3106 model for $375 is a good deal??? new one...

bpratt2

05-15-10, 10:33 PM

Please help me out : Urgent

GRX 6 zone 3106 model for $375 is a good deal??? new one...

I paid just over $US400 for the GRX3106-AU one I got middle of last year.

sathyakamaraj

05-15-10, 11:31 PM

The 120v is what you need.
Cheers
I know masters always say - read the forum before posting a question......
OMG I cant believe myself...I am going crazy on this HT Build...
JUST Bought
3106-T-WH........oooooooo
Now question is my stuff wont be ready - How Can I make sure system works???
Thanks everyone..

sathyakamaraj

05-16-10, 12:03 AM

I paid just over $US400 for the GRX3106-AU one I got middle of last year.
Thanks bud...Bought it after ur reply...last week I missed one for $310..its ok at this moment of excitement..

GWCR

05-17-10, 03:34 PM

Does anyone have a 4106, or have any feedback about them? I did a quick search on this thread and was surprised that nothing came up for 4106 (I am totally prepared to admit that I screwed up the search if someone links to it right away in this thread...) I have an opportunity to buy one, but wanted some quick feedback on the 4106 vs the 3106.

Thanks!

premiertrussman

05-17-10, 03:46 PM

The 4000 series GE's work in tandem with a separate dimmer panel. The 4106 does not actually do any dimming, its basically just a controller for the separate dimmer panel. I think they are usually used in more commercial applications.

The 3106 actually has the dimmer controls built in and works as a stand a alone unit.

Sorry if you already knew all this, but I nearly made the mistake of buying a 4106 because the price seemed better than the 3106, and if you've done some research but not a lot...it would seem that a 4106 = better than 3106 based on the numerical progression of the other model numbers...but unless you plan on buying the dimmer panel as well...not so much!

I have a 3106 and it works great.

GWCR

05-17-10, 04:01 PM

That is EXACTLY what I needed to know. Thanks for the info!

BTW, I am also following your build. Looks great!

premiertrussman

05-17-10, 04:11 PM

Thanks! Glad I could help! I finally called the Lutron tech support line and asked someone...because i was having a hard time finding documentation that i could understand that said exactly what difference between the 4000 and 3000 series was.

BillW

05-17-10, 06:04 PM

Lutron tech support is the best!!!

sathyakamaraj

05-17-10, 06:21 PM

premiertrussman

05-17-10, 06:56 PM

http://www.lutron.com/cms400/page.aspx?mn=2041&id=17771#GRAFIKEye3000

envient

05-19-10, 04:13 AM

Hello to everyone.

I am planning on using Lutron Grafik Eye 3106 for my 6 circuit lighting system in my open space living room (living, kitchen, hallway, dinning etc).

My apartment is currently under construction, electrical wiring phase. At the time I've decided to use Grafik Eye they've already wired most of it.
At the switch that controls the 6 light circuits, they brought 6 wires with 3 x 1.5mm (neutral, live, ground). I've read in the Lutron documentation that the wires should be 2.5mm.

So the question is: Can I come to it with 1.5mm wires, or do I really need 2.5mm wires per the documentation ? I don't have high consumers on the circuits, just spot lights and normal halogen lamps.

Second question is: What do I need extra for Grafik Eye? Do I have to wire his own circuit (the 7th) to power the unit itself ?

I also have to pull a PELV2 wire to the entrance of the apartment, for a wallstation correct?

I am not technical, the guys doing the electrical work at my apartement said they know what to do, but i want to be sure that they do the right thing. You know, they sometimes do some unorthodox things.

Thank you!

oman321

05-19-10, 09:14 AM

If by referring to 2.5mm and 1.5mm you are referring to 14 and 12 gauge electrical wire then yes you technically are able to use either. In the US 12 gauge is thicker and can handle a higher load, I believe Lutron recommends 12 gauge but I have seen folks wire up with 14 gauge because of the max loads they plan on carrying.

Yes you will need to have pelv wire pulled to the entrance for most wallstations. I believe the only exception is the S1 which uses traditional electrical line. The S1 goes from off to scene 1 and then from any scene to off. If you go with the S1 I would still have the PELV pulled in case of future upgrades to a different wall station.

Moggie

05-19-10, 11:11 AM

If you have no more than a 15 amp total load then you can use 14 gauge wires for your lighting so long as you use the same gauge from the electrical distribution box to the GE (or protect the lighting circuit with a 15 amp breaker). I.e you can't mix a 20 amp supply to the GE and 15 amp (rated) lighting circuits and pass code.

BTW 2.5mm core wire is more like 10 gauge. I assume you are referring to the jacket diameter?

envient

05-20-10, 03:33 AM

I'm from Europe. In the Grafik Eye Documentation and Diagram it says "It can accept up to two #12 AWG (2.5 mm2) wires". I believe my wires are 1.5 mm2 (at least that's what the electrician said). Not sure about #X AWG.

ctviggen

05-20-10, 11:40 AM

trpltongue

05-20-10, 01:47 PM

Quick but somewhat difficult question.

I replaced a bank of 4 switches with a 2404 in my theater recently. I have a URC MX-810 and MRF-350 that is setup to send IR to the grafik eye via an IR emitter for scene selection and it works perfectly. However, when first walking into the room, it is a bit difficult to find the buttons on the grafik eye in the dark. Has anyone done any entry wall station without pulling PELV? I don't really feel like ripping out sheetrock to add an entry switch, but if there's some sort of easy to implement solution I'd be all for it.

URC has an RF keypad, but it is a full fledged remote and is crazy expensive.

Thanks!

oman321

05-20-10, 02:26 PM

I never thought of that, but that's a good idea. Is that code, though, leaving PELV in a box, unconnected?

Should not be a problem. Just put a cap on the end of it and you should be fine.

sathyakamaraj

05-20-10, 10:05 PM

envient

05-21-10, 03:55 AM

I am sorry to insist, but I didn't get quite an answer to my question and really need to know because the are planning to close the walls soon.

Will Grafik Eye 3106 work on 1.5 mm2 AWG 14 wiring, or should I change all wiring to 2.5 mm2 AWG 12 (which is pretty costly)?

trpltongue

05-21-10, 08:16 AM

envient,

moggie answered your question with specific detail. You then backed it up by posting the note "It can accept up to two #12 AWG (2.5 mm2) wires". If you're wires are 1.5mm that is "up to #12 AWG (2.5mm2) wire". If that's not clear enough you really should discuss with a proper liscensed electrician.

Not trying to be a jerk, but electricity is dangerous for you and your family so it's important to get it right. If there's even a hint of doubt you need to work with a professional.

trpltongue

05-21-10, 08:18 AM

Masters..
apologize i didnt do the search on this thread properly..

Question:
3106-T-WH
What is the easy way to test this equipment -- I have only 7 days to return..
Help me out..

this is the wiring of the lights...i changed my mind and bought grafiq eye
http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt197/milta_xo/IMG_5575.jpg
http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt197/milta_xo/IMG_5573.jpg
http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt197/milta_xo/IMG_5595.jpg

The only way to test is to hook it up to a load and see if it works. If you are handy, you can build a one sided extension cord and wire the unfinished end to the grafik eye, then bench test using a volt meter.

envient

05-21-10, 06:27 PM

No trying to contradict him or you, just trying to be 100% sure. You guys are probably more experienced with Lutron than the local licensed electricians I can find in Romania :)

"It can accept up to two #12 AWG (2.5 mm2) wires" is a tricky sentence. Maybe it refers to the number of wires (maybe it works with only 1 wire), and not to the diameter...Or maybe I am stupid :)

envient,

moggie answered your question with specific detail. You then backed it up by posting the note "It can accept up to two #12 AWG (2.5 mm2) wires". If you're wires are 1.5mm that is "up to #12 AWG (2.5mm2) wire". If that's not clear enough you really should discuss with a proper liscensed electrician.

Not trying to be a jerk, but electricity is dangerous for you and your family so it's important to get it right. If there's even a hint of doubt you need to work with a professional.

Moggie

05-21-10, 11:07 PM

envient, I'm not sure what the Lutron doc means by "can accept up to two 2.5 mm2 wires" because you only want/need a single supply line. So, if you you have a total lighting load greater that 15A then you need a 20A (12 AWG) supply and all your lighting zones should also use 12 gauge wire. If you need less that 15A then the supply can be a single 14 gauge feed and your zones can be also be wired with 14 gauge. 14 gauge is not only cheaper it is much easier to work with.

Side question: you mentioned you are in Romania. Is the household line voltage 110v or 240v?

Moggie

05-21-10, 11:12 PM

Passing on some information I learned today: I had reason to order another QS GE unit (for wired install) from an online store and was told that although they would honor the wired price, Lutron have discontinued the wired-only unit and only sell the dual RF/wired units now...

jetski

05-23-10, 12:25 AM

sathyakamaraj

05-23-10, 01:39 AM

The only way to test is to hook it up to a load and see if it works. If you are handy, you can build a one sided extension cord and wire the unfinished end to the grafik eye, then bench test using a volt meter.

Thanks bud....bought a 2 qty 14 gauge wire from home depot with one end plug and one end open (black,white,green)

I am going to do this tomorrow...i am gonna test each zone with 14 gauge wiring

TESTING IS DONE: ALL ZONES WORKING

Tested the GRX today...Works fine..I am not recommending this way of testing of the equipment, since i dont know this is the right way

Connection is simple:
1.Turned off the breaker
2. Bought 2 cables A,B from home depot with one end connector and other end stripped to hot neutral and ground
3. connected the cable A to GE as per their diagram
4. Connected the Cale B to GE zone 1 - hot, Neutral to Neutral, Ground to Ground
In the pic below: Zone 1 is connected to light switch through extension cord (which gets the power through GE)
http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt197/milta_xo/IMG_5712.jpg
http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt197/milta_xo/IMG_5717.jpg

Turned on the switch:
http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt197/milta_xo/IMG_5715.jpg
Adjusted the dimmer
http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt197/milta_xo/IMG_5716.jpg

Checked all the zones, and made sure that all zones are dimmable..

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt197/milta_xo/IMG_5720.jpg

I dont know what else to check...I am not recommending this way, since i dont know this is the right way

oman321

05-24-10, 08:49 AM

I've got a grafic eye 3106 and I'm now looking for a Grafik Eye GRX-IRI to add IR control too it.
The problem is I'm having issues finding locations selling it. Can't even find it on ebay.

Any suggestions?

You may know this, but based on your statement above you might not. Yo do know that the GE already has IR capabilities. You just need line of sight, attach an emitter to it or position an IR repeater in front of it.

In any event here is one source of for a GRX-IRI if you wish to add it as an accessory.

http://www.beverlyhillselectric.com/lutrongrxiri.html

Ebay would just require persistence as it may come up on occassion.

BTW here is another item which you can look for on Ebay(to expensive from regular retailers). This will also add IR capabilities from a remote location.

http://www.electricalsupplies4less.com/lugrgreyecem.html

oman321

05-24-10, 08:51 AM

I dont know what else to check...I am not recommending this way, since i dont know this is the right way

Sathyakamaraj,

Good job testing, seems to me like you did well besides using a meter as previously mentioned

envient

05-24-10, 09:52 AM

Romania, 230V.
I need to ask about the consumers amperage now...
Thanks!

envient, I'm not sure what the Lutron doc means by "can accept up to two 2.5 mm2 wires" because you only want/need a single supply line. So, if you you have a total lighting load greater that 15A then you need a 20A (12 AWG) supply and all your lighting zones should also use 12 gauge wire. If you need less that 15A then the supply can be a single 14 gauge feed and your zones can be also be wired with 14 gauge. 14 gauge is not only cheaper it is much easier to work with.

Side question: you mentioned you are in Romania. Is the household line voltage 110v or 240v?

envient

05-24-10, 10:13 AM

15A max per circuit or total per all circuits?

envient, I'm not sure what the Lutron doc means by "can accept up to two 2.5 mm2 wires" because you only want/need a single supply line. So, if you you have a total lighting load greater that 15A then you need a 20A (12 AWG) supply and all your lighting zones should also use 12 gauge wire. If you need less that 15A then the supply can be a single 14 gauge feed and your zones can be also be wired with 14 gauge. 14 gauge is not only cheaper it is much easier to work with.

Side question: you mentioned you are in Romania. Is the household line voltage 110v or 240v?

jetski

05-24-10, 12:55 PM

You may know this, but based on your statement above you might not. Yo do know that the GE already has IR capabilities. You just need line of sight, attach an emitter to it or position an IR repeater in front of it.

In any event here is one source of for a GRX-IRI if you wish to add it as an accessory.

http://www.beverlyhillselectric.com/lutrongrxiri.html

Ebay would just require persistence as it may come up on occassion.

BTW here is another item which you can look for on Ebay(to expensive from regular retailers). This will also add IR capabilities from a remote location.

http://www.electricalsupplies4less.com/lugrgreyecem.html

I've currently got a cat5 line run from the gang box to a single gange for the GRX-IRI near the rack. It's a short 2 ft run used instead of plem wire.
So based off the above statment by oman321, How would you fit the emiter so that it would not be seen on the cover? Is that possable?

oman321

05-24-10, 01:16 PM

Some folks have cracked open IR emitters and placed the exposed emitter under the GE cover. Some folks have grinded the GE cover a bit on the inside just to make it as flush as possible.

You can buy and emitter with shell here.

http://www.hometech.com/hts/products/infrared/emitters/index.html

You would obviously splice it with the cat5.

trpltongue

05-24-10, 02:21 PM

15A max per circuit or total per all circuits?

envient, there is only 1 supply line coming to the grafik eye so there is only 1 circuit that the grafik eye is controlling. All the 6 zones are on 1 circuit. That circuit must be 15A or less.

Basically, you run a single hot/neutral/ground from the supply panel to the grafik eye to supply power to it and the fixtures. Then you run a "switch leg" which consists of hot/neutral/ground to each lighting zone. The lighting zone may have 3 or 4 lights on it, but they'll all be tied together and only a single switch leg will come back to the grafik eye.

Hope that helps some.

Russell

envient

05-31-10, 12:18 PM

So from the Distribution Panel comes only ONE circuit/cable (Hot/Neutral/Ground) to the Grafik Eye. Then from the Grafik Eye, 6 different cables (Hot/Neutral/Ground) to 6 LOADs.
So from the Distribution Panel to the 6 LOADs there aren't living 6 circuits/cables anymore.
I understand correct now ?

trpltongue

06-01-10, 08:25 AM

Basically yes. However, each of the 6 wires H/N/G from the grafik eye can connect to 1 or more individual loads (lights). So you truly have 6 zones, the total of which cannot exceed 15A if using 14G wire and a 15A fuse or 20A if using 12G wire and a 20A fuse. The last thing to consider is the total dimming capacity of the Lutron. I believe (but you need to confirm) that the maximum for any individual zone is 800W, but the total depends on the model of grafikeye. I believe for a 6 zone the total dimming capacity is 2000W, which if you're on a 220V line, would be less than 10A.

Basically, think of the grafik eye as a remote electrical panel without any circuit breakers if that helps?

Hope that helps.

Russell

Bjelland

06-01-10, 05:00 PM

My GRX 3106 is on the way!!!!!!!!!

bikerdans10

06-04-10, 04:38 PM

New to the forum. Where have you guys purchased your Grafik Eyes from?

Any information would be helpful and appriciated.

Dan

trpltongue

06-04-10, 05:23 PM

I purchased my 2404 on ebay for $100 :) But I'm frugal like that....

Bjelland

06-07-10, 06:35 PM

New to the forum. Where have you guys purchased your Grafik Eyes from?

Any information would be helpful and appriciated.

Dan
eBay

bpratt2

06-07-10, 06:58 PM

Where have you guys purchased your Grafik Eyes from?

Ebay.

The retail price over here is over $AU1000, whereas ebay is less than half of that, even taking in to account exchange rates.

envient

06-08-10, 05:39 PM

I just got my 3106 today, EU version. Bought it from ebay US for $399. Brand new

ctviggen

06-13-10, 08:06 AM

jacovn

06-17-10, 02:47 PM

Does anywan uses ELVI-1000 with LED lamps ?

CSO

06-23-10, 02:37 PM

New to the forum. Where do you guys purchase your Grafik Eyes?

Dan

On the net at Hanks electric (http://hankselectric.net/)

sathyakamaraj

06-23-10, 04:05 PM

If someone looking for power booster NGRX-PB-WH -- can go to beay now...looks cheap..
i dont know whats the use clearly..i am having tough time understanding current ongoin installation..i am not gonna buy..

sathyakamaraj

06-23-10, 04:08 PM

Sorry guys...I saved my search in Bookmark..looks like I lost it...
I am looking for the 2 Box Installation picture of GE unit.

This link in this thread is for 1 box installation Click (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15690137#post15690137)

similar to that, I saw in some where 2 box installation..I cant find it..tired of searchin now...
HELP me Out

ianmalta

06-23-10, 05:39 PM

Hi, I'm new to this forum. Don't know if I a posting this question in the right thread.

I am wiring a new place and decided to use 2 Grafik Eyes 3106 CE (as in my country we have 230v) with these 12 zones/channels I am gonna light several different rooms. My question is, if I want to light up only 1 room do I have to make a scene for it? Also if I have a scene on and want to light another room that is not in the scene and need the scene that is on, on can it happen? Is it better if I connect the 2 grafik eyes together or shall I use them seperately?

Thanks

Bjelland

06-26-10, 08:52 AM

Chiahead

06-28-10, 02:35 PM

I did a double box using the deep boxes. After reading about how tight the installation could be, and knowing how cramped my outlet boxes usually are, I went with the 2.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17050064#post17050064

In this post I have a pic of what I did. It is the only pic I have of it before drywall. 1 box on the theater side, the second box is on the utility side of the basement. Most connections are in the utility side, the theater side will be the connection to the graphic eye. I have not hooked up the eye yet, but I have tested it to make sure it works.

sathyakamaraj

06-28-10, 07:34 PM

I did a double box using the deep boxes. After reading about how tight the installation could be, and knowing how cramped my outlet boxes usually are, I went with the 2.
.
Thanks for the link...this is what i was looking for ...i think i saw that thread months ago.... :)

KKoepp31

07-01-10, 09:17 AM

Alright guys, I'm officially in the game of trying to score a cheap Grafik Eye on ebay. My super old, slow home computer cost me a 4-zone 3500 series unit yesterday. It went for $76. Crazy.

Anyway, I still think I may be better off with a 6-zone unit as it gives me more options. It will be controlling both a bar and theater area that are joined together in an L shape, so a couple extra zones are probably a good idea. Do most people wire it to a 15A circuit? 14ga could save some money over 12ga, but I probably shouldn't skimp and just use the 12. Also, I plan to have all my equipment in a separate room. I figured I would use a Harmony remote with whatever RF/IR setup necessary to control through walls for that sort of stuff and I'm sure you can make it work with a grafik eye as well, right? That being said, I would still need a switch at the entrance to the room. Does wiring one of those in eat up an entire zone?

oman321

07-03-10, 11:11 AM

Good luck on the quest for the 6 zone GE.

The 3500 is slightly different and I cant recall if you need a special controller so you are probably better off.

I think most use 12ga and 20 amp circuit the other way is probably more rare.

Yes you will be able to use a Harmony with either an RF/IR to ir extender. The GE has an IR receiver on it's face so you either need to attach an emitter to it or place a flood emitter somewhere in front of it.

Lastly a switch does not use up a zone, most GE switches are connected via PELV wire and they are added as an accessory. The accesory switch I use with my GE is an S1 which sets the lights to scene 1 and then off from any scene. This switched is wired with regular electrical wire, 12-2 in my case but in this situation it still doesn't use a zone up.

sathyakamaraj

07-03-10, 12:57 PM

The accesory switch I use with my GE is an S1 which sets the lights to scene 1 and then off from any scene. This switched is wired with regular electrical wire, 12-2 in my case but in this situation it still doesn't use a zone up.
Questions on Remote Wall Station to put at the entrance:

1. Sorry - I don't know what is S1 Switch. I couldnt find it in google search either.

2. Is it anyway (cheap way) to convert the 4 scene Remote control with On/Off switch to Wall station :rolleyes:

ianmalta

07-03-10, 06:19 PM

Is it ok if you pass the PELV cable and the eletric cable ( one to light a zone) from the same conduit?

oman321

07-03-10, 09:33 PM

Questions on Remote Wall Station to put at the entrance:

1. Sorry - I don't know what is S1 Switch. I couldnt find it in google search either.

2. Is it anyway (cheap way) to convert the 4 scene Remote control with On/Off switch to Wall station :rolleyes:

http://www.dimmers.net/grafik_entrance_controls.asp

This is the 1S, its been a while so I reffered to it incorrectly should have stated 1S.

Never heard of anyone converting a remote to a wallstation.

oman321

07-03-10, 09:35 PM

Is it ok if you pass the PELV cable and the eletric cable ( one to light a zone) from the same conduit?

I would say it is ok, whether this will introduce any problems I don't know.

The PELV has high voltage sheathing that is the reason why you must use it instead of cat 5 cable as it is rated to be in a high voltage box. So I would suppose that the same would apply for a conduit.

gasbie

07-07-10, 09:16 PM

Hello my AVS families,
I really need help in wiring my GE 3506. I had my electrician installed six 6" can, four 3" cans and four 4" can in one of my living room. These cans are connected to three dimmer which means that the six 6" can has its dimmer switch, the 3" has its own dimmer switch the 4" cans have its own dimmer switch. When I looked at the grafik eye wiring diagram, it shows a 14/2 coming from a panel which serves as the power source. Afer this is being said, I have a total of three dimmers with five 14/3 (black, white, and bared wire) wire running into the 3 gang box attached to my wall. I'm thinking that three of these wires are four each set of cans (6" cans, 4" cans and 3"cans). Now my question is does it means that the remaining two 14/3 wires serves as the power source? I know that the electrician that wired the can tapped power source from a new by outlet for one the 6" can and tapped another current from another outlet for the 4" can. I know that you twist are bared wire together, all white together, and each black represent each zones. but in the situation where you have two 14/3 wire serving as the source, do i twist the two black wire from the source wire to get the power to the GE iteself? Also, I want to attached my stairways lights to the GE. My stairway lights is installed on a three way dimmer, can I still wire the three way dimmer to the GE so that I can control the stairway light from both the three ways switch and the GE switch. All contribution will be appreciated. Thanks

oman321

07-08-10, 07:50 AM

gasbie

07-08-10, 10:11 AM

No you cannot twist the 2 blacks together. I would run a new dedicated 20 amp line from the panel to the GE.

Also you cannot wire a regular 3 way dimmer switch to the GE. You will need one of the accessory switches which can provide different scenes. These switches would typically be wired with PELV wire.

Oman321
Thanks for the quick response. so what kind of accessories switch can I buy to replace the three way switch and is it going to be connected to the GE? Also, If I run a dedicated 20amp line from the panel to the wall, that means I have to use the yellow wire. Does that mean I have to use the yellow wire for all the lights in other to match up with the wire coming from the panel or the regular white 15 amp is ok?