CableCards: We should NOT give up [Text View] - Page 3

chaz01

07-06-06, 04:22 PM

My experience with Comcast was that of a big runaround, stalling, a high pressure sales pitch (on EVERY phone call) for a STB and three techs who knew little to nothing about cablecards.

Would have to jump on the fingerpointing bandwagon of the mfg's.

My JVC set works fine once a tech finally showed up with a cablecard (first visit they brought a stb because "the work order shows you wanted a new stb". This was after my original appointment was lost, noone showed up, and it couldn't be found in their system. Then they were "out" of cablecards. When one finally showed up, the tech didn't even map the channels and I had to explain how it was supposed to be numbered the same as the stb numbers. Entire process was a nightmare).

PaulGo

07-07-06, 12:31 PM

CableLabs approves Motorola 'M-Card'
By Jeff Baumgartner, CED
July 6, 2006

CableLabs has qualified a multi-stream CableCARD from Motorola Inc. that will support video-on-demand, picture-in-picture, and other interactive cable services and applications.

The M-Card, as the multi-stream version of the CableCARD is often called, is a removable conditional access device for OpenCable digital set-tops and set-top-free, "Plug & Play" digital televisions. The currently deployed version of the CableCARD supports only unidirectional digital cable services. The cable industry is also working on a downloadable conditional access system (DCAS) that could eventually replace the more expensive and less elegant CableCARD. Next July, U.S. cable operators will be banned from buying digital set-tops with integrated security.

Motorola marks the second company to obtain M-Card qualification from CableLabs. In April, Scientific Atlanta became the first. With qualifications for SA and Motorola, the U.S. cable industry now has qualified M-Cards for the cable industry's two major conditional access system suppliers.

CableLabs said it is expected that M-Cards will be available from major MSOs within the next few months.

http://www.cedmagazine.com/article/CA6350049.html

optivity

07-08-06, 05:58 PM

I almost hope we don't see DCR devices that support M-Cards for a while... because my wife will not be happy if I go and drop $10K :eek: for another TV anytime soon. :D

PaulGo

07-11-06, 10:39 AM

Motorola \"M-Card\" Gains CableLabs Approval
Posted by on Jul 11 2006 in General, by Alan Breznick
So much for ending the cable industry's long-running set-top box duopoly. In a sign that Motorola and Scientific-Atlanta will continue to dominate the cable set-top business for years to come despite the FCC's best efforts, CableLabs has approved a multi-stream CableCARD from Motorola, adding it to one already approved from Scientific-Atlanta. Dubbed \"M-Cards\" for short, multi-stream CableCARDs are removable security modules designed for OpenCable digital set-tops and cable-ready digital TV sets that can be sold at retail. Unlike the currently deployed basic CableCARDs, which can support only one-way digital cable services, M-Cards are next-generation devices designed to support such more advancd, two-way digital services as video-on-demand (VOD), picture-in-picture and interactive TV. With the Motorola M-Card approval, CableLabs has now qualified two-way security modules from the industry's two main set-top box makers and largst conditional access system suppliers. So, even if consumers somehow manage to start buying cable set-tops and digital sets from other consumer electronics manufacturers, they will still need conditional access cards from Motorola and S-A to make their equipment work on their cable systems. CableLabs says it expects major MSOs to start offering M-Cards to their subscribers within the next few months. Working with Digital Keystone Inc., the industry's R&D consortium has developed a tool for testing the M-Card interface on TV sets and set-tops.

http://blog.cabledigitalnews.com/index.php?id=482

Doctor

10-10-06, 01:50 AM

"CableLabs said it is expected that M-Cards will be available from major MSOs within the next few months."

First, it's a few months later and they aren't available. Second, what good is Comcast, e.g., having these cards when there are no televisions that support them. Third, when can we expect to purchase HDTV's that can utilize this 2-way cablecard system?

HDTVFanAtic

10-10-06, 02:54 AM

optivity

10-10-06, 07:18 AM

Considering that most TV makers feel stung by the problems of the first generation cable cards and low adoptance by consumers as well as costing them extra in a cut throat, price sensitive industry, expect to see the second generation even slower than the firstCable Companies can route IP but can't install a CableCARD? Give it a rest... CATV providers are like a bunch of little kids dragging their feet, kicking & screaming all the way, doing anything they can to slow the implementation of an open cable environment. :rolleyes:

UxiSXRD

10-10-06, 11:29 AM

bicker1

10-10-06, 01:51 PM

And it is pretty pointless to place blame on a Teflon entity like CableLabs.

optivity

10-10-06, 07:39 PM

Seriously. Either the specifications from CableLabs is too loose or just plain wrong or EVERY set and STB using their thing got it wrong. In any case, the blame for this should go squarely to CableLabs.STBs don’t adhere to OCAP 1.0. They are the proprietary hardware of the CATV provider who determines the set of features and permissions their "box" will support. Open Cable DRM is an entirely different matter.

Elemental1

10-27-06, 06:30 PM

Cable Companies can route IP but can't install a CableCARD? Give it a rest... CATV providers are like a bunch of little kids dragging their feet, kicking & screaming all the way, doing anything they can to slow the implementation of an open cable environment. :rolleyes:

I guess the FiOS they just put in my area will 'adjust' the cable co's attitude very soon. :D

UxiSXRD

10-27-06, 07:34 PM

STBs don’t adhere to OCAP 1.0. They are the proprietary hardware of the CATV provider who determines the set of features and permissions their "box" will support. Open Cable DRM is an entirely different matter.

Maybe CableCARDS shouldn't license if they can't adhere to the standards (Which IIRC is required)? My main point being that these problems are endemic across the different providers and the different CE manufactuerers. The only thing in common is the specification itself, which must be lacking.

The only other possibility is that one of the sides is making a concerted and coordinated effort to make this undesriable. The only logical party for that would be the content providers, which would be illegal.

Now that TiVO is complaining about it, maybe it will draw more attention. Hopefully.

bicker1

10-28-06, 07:31 AM

The only thing in common is the specification itself, which must be lacking. Absolutely. CableCard is simply bad technology. And there won't be any better technology as long as we have a pro-business perspective in our legislatures and state houses, so folks are going to just accept it.

markrubin

10-28-06, 09:14 AM

CableCard is simply bad technology.

disagree: the technology behind cablecards is sound in my opinion: Cablecos chose to not to support one way cards in spite of the FCC mandate

Elemental1

10-28-06, 10:18 AM

disagree: the technology behind cablecards is sound in my opinion: Cablecos chose to not to support one way cards in spite of the FCC mandate

It's very hard for things to work when one party (cable co's) fights an underhanded war on open competition.
Hopefully, companies that do this get the wrath of their customers to make them re-think thier strategy.

bicker1

10-28-06, 12:03 PM

That'll be the day....

Elemental1

10-29-06, 12:05 PM

That'll be the day....

Then I guess good old competition will take care of it. :D

optivity

10-29-06, 12:35 PM

CableCards: We should NOT give up I will never buy another digital cable ready, plug & play (not), device that is equipped with a one-way CableCARD slot(s). My recommendation is for those who subscribe to digital CATV to wait until the Cable MSOs have switched their copyright authorization policies from OCAP 1.0 to OCAP 2.0 before spending another dime of their hard earned money for an expensive DCR A/V component, which is "designed & built" to provide only half-a$$ed service.

markrubin

10-29-06, 12:42 PM

I will never buy another digital cable ready, plug & play (not), device that is equipped with a one-way CableCARD slot(s). My recommendation is for those who subscribe to digital CATV to wait until the Cable MSOs have switched their copyright authorization policies from OCAP 1.0 to OCAP 2.0 before spending another dime of their hard earned money for an expensive DCR A/V component, which is "designed & built" to provide only half-a$$ed service.

probably good advice:

let's see: we need to wait for

HDMI 1.3
1080p
OCAP 2.0

by the time this gear comes to market, there will likely be newer specs we should have waited for :D

optivity

10-29-06, 12:50 PM

probably good advice:

let's see: we need to wait for

HDMI 1.3
1080p
OCAP 2.0

by the time this gear comes to market, there will likely be newer specs we should have waited for :DRight. But since I already own a TV that supports:

HDMI 1.1
1080i
OCAP 1.0

I don't want to make the same mistake twice! :D

bicker1

10-29-06, 02:33 PM

Then I guess good old competition will take care of it. :DUnless, as seems to be the case, the competition all have similar characteristics/limitations/restrictions/etc.

UxiSXRD

10-29-06, 02:56 PM

1 way CableCARD is fine for me. I don't like the Guide much but a TV Guide channel would be just as good (it's chanel 22 or something liek that offered with basic service) but the interweb is just as good. I don't use VoD or PPV, either (rip off).

Multiple streams for PiP, etc would be nice, though.

trbarry

10-30-06, 10:33 AM

Despite the thread title I think maybe those with high hopes for cable card SHOULD give up. I just don't see the cable companies being willing to make it a very nice experience.

- Tom

bicker1

10-30-06, 10:44 AM

And I don't see franchising authorities and other regulators being willing to force the issue with cable companies.

TopHighFi

10-30-06, 06:12 PM

Since you are the moderator for this forum I'll leave you with this information that pertains to having the GUIDE update in the Philadelphia, PA area via O-T-A (no cable) and how the DHG-HDD250 responds in this area. This may need to be posted in another area that has to do with receiption in particular areas. According to our local PBS station (WHYY 12 - whyy org ) that has been off the air for about 3 weeks, is about to come back on i.e. about 11-3-2006. They have moved their broadcasting UHF assignment channel from 55 to 50. That means most users will have to command their set-top-boxes to learn the new assignment. Channel 55 has been allocated to another broadcaster. IF all goes well, 12-1, 12-2 & 12-3 will be back. Being that said, they are still operating analog channel 12 which is also carrying the information for the TV Guide & clock within the HDD250 to update. I found that if this analog station was not within the 'CH +/- List', which is accessed via pressing MENU on remote---selecting Preferences---CH +/- List, the HDD250's TV Guide would not obtain its download. It does not matter if it IS or IS NOT listed on the main LISTINGS of the TV Guide, but it MUST be in the CH List. I don't know exactly how there is going to be a work-around when the analog stations are dropped within 2 years. Maybe the guide won't work anymore.

markrubin

10-30-06, 06:30 PM

UxiSXRD

10-30-06, 10:43 PM

And I don't see franchising authorities and other regulators being willing to force the issue with cable companies.

Definitely. Are they aware, though? Maybe it's worth the probable waste of time to let our elected representatives know how we feel?

bicker1

10-31-06, 06:14 AM

I suspect they are aware, as much as they are aware of any issue that concerns less than 1% of their constituency.

ab11bc48

11-26-06, 10:40 PM

I tried a comcast CC last year, but it messed up a couple of times so I brought it back. I only have basic cable and I could always receive the airwave broadcasted HDTV channels using the built in digital receiver on my Sharp, so I really did not care.

Couple days ago Monmouth NJ added some digital channels and wham no more CBS-HD, NBC-HD, etc. I thought basic cable had to allow access to over the air channels by law.

I was hoping not to see this thread. As HDTVs fly off the shelves I had hoped things would have improved. I am really not looking forward to having to have to go through those hassles of getting the CC to work again.

MarkRubin, good news about Verizon Fios. I hope my town is right behind yours.

QZ1

12-26-06, 07:35 PM

I read through, ok, mostly skimmed through, this entire thread.

To the participants of this thread:

Did you finally get a reliably working CC?
Anybody get a CC lately?
Any areas allowing self-installs?

I want to get a secondary TV w/o the cost and the look of an HD STB, also the improved PQ is great as well.
(As good as I am at deciphering Comcast's annual price list, the '07 list is unclear and/or has ommisions, but clearly the STB would be considerably more.)

I am looking at getting a discontinued Sony XBR1 LCD Flat Panel.

I have Comcast on a Motorola system to go with the Sony.
It seems this combo should work ok, what do you think?
Should I go for it or might it be too much of a hassle?

Even by reading this thread I still don't have a working knowledge of the CC install procedure, the TV manual is virtually useless.
Is being tech savvy enough?

Joanr

12-26-06, 07:55 PM

No, have had three of these so far, main problem is having to re-set the card every three days or so. I hear that Sony is suggesting installing a heat shield on some models and also changing out the style of lamp. I've pulled the card out several times to see if it was overly hot and it never felt that way to me, but funny how the CC option is not available on this years version of the E50A10.

Comcast would not allow a self-install, but I had them waive the fee since I've had so many problems. Time will tell with this third Moto card, it's been in now for 3 weeks and has lost settings only 4 times so far, not too bad considering the track record of card #2 which had to be re-set on a daily basis. I still don't know if it's the TV, the CC or the headend at the provider, or a combo of any of the above, that's causing the re-sets. Good Luck with yours.

markrubin

12-26-06, 08:04 PM

3 S/A Cablecards working reliably in Sharp LCD's for a few months now:

Comcast has an automated phone service to get a hit to the cards: still need to do this periodically

I recommend you let them install it: cards are problematic

keenan

12-26-06, 08:11 PM

I read through, ok, mostly skimmed through, this entire thread.

To the participants of this thread:

Did you finally get a reliably working CC?
Anybody get a CC lately?
Any areas allowing self-installs?

Experiences will vary, for myself, I had a CC in a 55" Mits that worked perfect once I upgraded the Mits firmware(USB drive-simple procedure). I then took the CC out and put it in my new 73" and it worked fine, no need to involve Comcast, that move worked fine as well. I have since stopped using the CC in the display and put 2 CCs in a S3 TiVo, and again, it has worked perfectly.

Obviously, different displays and different Comcast regions will/may have different problems, but in Comcast's 3rd largest market, the San Francisco bay area, CCs seem not to be a problem. There's the odd problem here and there, primarily seeming to relate to the display as opposed to Comcast, but in general, based on the SF bay threads, CC here is no problem. Hard to say how well it works elsewhere.

I've never had to swap a CC out to get a "working" one, they all worked as expected on initial install.

Bay Area does not allow self-install to the best of my knowledge.

optivity

12-26-06, 08:33 PM

CableCards: We should NOT give up

I gave up... CableCARDs are basically useless when your TV can't support 480p, lacks a program guide and will not strech HDlite content. :rolleyes:

nice job Panasonic

chaz01

12-27-06, 12:42 AM

My cablecard has been working flawlessly on my JVC for over a year now. Like all things today, I had to be my own agent and manage the delivery and install from Comcast.

Comcast recognizes lease revenues on STB's, not on cablecards. There is no financial interest for them to support cablecards at this time.

I am very happy with the cablecard. PQ is better than my old Moto dvr. I do miss the guide a bit, but my PC is always on in the next room and there are plenty of free guides available. Funny, my TV has guide software built in but that is not a government mandate for cable co's to support.

Good luck.

QZ1

12-27-06, 05:34 PM

Thanks for all of the feedback.

Can someone please refer me to a synopsis on how the CC install procedure works?
All I know is there are numbers on the screen that must be called in, and sometimes there are error codes, but there must be more to it.

About how often have you had to call to reset the card?
(I don't mind so much if the initial install is problematic, I am just hoping the CC works reliably afterwards.)

For those of you that didn't mention which brand CC you have, please tell me, Motorola or SA?

keenan

12-27-06, 05:50 PM

Using Motorola here in the SF bay area and I, personally, have never had to call to have the CC "reset". Been using CCs for about 2(?) years.

PhillyC

12-27-06, 06:09 PM

The tech has to call in the serial number of the card or the ID numbers that appear on your screen. This is not a problem. If your card does not work after the first hit, the big question is whether or not the tech can get in contact with the right people at the cableco. He may need to talk to people in more than one department.

The newest Moto cards are green and have firmware 4.21.

Make sure you are getting all of the channels you pay for before the tech leaves. Good luck.

QZ1

12-27-06, 10:43 PM

Can the CC be installed/removed while the TV is on?

The manual makes no mention, so I would think it is ok.

But, also maybe it installs more reliably in a certain on/off state.

keenan

12-28-06, 04:42 AM

I've pulled it out and put it back in while the display is on, and pulled it while it's off and put it back in while it's on, doesn't seem to bother anything. Some displays may respond differently though.

Elemental1

12-28-06, 03:36 PM

QZ1

12-28-06, 07:25 PM

Has CC v2 been approved yet?
If so, are any TVs with CC v2 expected at CES?

keenan

12-28-06, 08:46 PM

optivity

12-29-06, 07:20 AM

If OCAP 2.0 is backward compatible with OCAP 1.0, why don't HDTV manufacturers build their TVs to support two-way communications while subscribers wait for CATV providers to upgrade their head-ends? :confused:

bicker1

12-29-06, 07:36 AM

They could try, but without any way of testing it it might be a problematic exercise, especially if they promise customers that it "will work"...

markrubin

12-29-06, 08:41 AM

Pretty sure it's been approved by Cable Labs for release in the wild, as far as displays I don't believe there are any on the market yet. I'll be at CES for 2 days so I'll definitely check and see if anything is coming.

Yes- the 2 way card and some TV's have been approved by CableLabs: but none have appeared on the market as far as I know

The big question is if the cable companies are going to support 2 way cards: I doubt cablecos will spend any more money on upgrading headend systems after the 1 way card debacle

Jack Texas

12-29-06, 08:50 AM

Wow... I must be one of the lucky ones?
My cablecard DVR has worked pretty much flawlessly for the couple of years I've had it. Other than having to see a couple of error messages, which are bogus, and having to hit enter when I see them every few weeks, I am very happy with my CC and the meager $1.75 each month I get charged for it.

dc10forlife

12-29-06, 09:48 AM

Overall I am very happy with my cablecard.

Some positives:

1. It provides a better picture than the SA3250HD and the SA8300HD.
2. I can record HBOHD (and other HD stations) via firewire and the TV guide service to DVHS with use of the cablecard -- much better than the buggy/broken 1394 interface on the SA8300HD /SA3250HD STBs.
3. No clunky cable box needed.
4. Monthly fee of $1.75 instead of $7.95 plus the guide fee of $2.00 for a STB.
5. Cablecard + 1394 interfaces with my Toshiba Symbio, which was bought at a discount price. The Symbio has already paid for itself in the year I have had it by avoiding the $16.00+ combined monthly fees for the 8300HD.
6. I don't have to deal with all of the OnDemand junk out there.
7. My TVGuide lists only the channels that I have/want.
8. Because I can archive from the cablecard instead of simply time shifting, I don't have to worry about losing recordings when TWC decides to update the firmware on its DVR, which results in the deletion of all stored content on the DVR.
9. When the firewire Blu-Ray recorders hit the US, I will already be setup to record HD straight to Blu-Ray.

I plan on keeping my cablecard for a long time. Long live the cablecard.

QZ1

12-29-06, 04:40 PM

Yes- the 2 way card and some TV's have been approved by CableLabs: but none have appeared on the market as far as I know

The big question is if the cable companies are going to support 2 way cards: I doubt cablecos will spend any more money on upgrading headend systems after the 1 way card debacle
I thought the FCC would mandate the cablecos to support CC v2 cards, I guess not?
Eventhough the CC cost money, otherwise they are like boxes in terms of revenue, so I think they will be supported. I know the want DCA, so we shall see.

I really want to get this CC v1 TV, that has been discontinued for four months, before they run out, but I also want to wait for CES in case of CC v2 TVs.

CES won't be over until Jan. 11, but will all of the press releases be on Jan. 8?

I have my doubts anything will be announced.
Even if they do, I am even more doubtful it would for a 32" TV, but I'm not sure. :(

keenan

12-29-06, 06:57 PM

You might give the below link a read. It seems, from just a brief lookover, that "CableCARD 1.0" has always had the ability to be bidirectionally, but that the host and the device at the cable company end have to be 2-way capable.

Somewhere at that site is a PDF with all the different manufacturers with CC capable equipment, I've seen it before but didn't find when looking just now, it's there somewhere.

http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html
CableCard Primer

optivity

12-30-06, 10:23 AM

They could try, but without any way of testing it it might be a problematic exercise, especially if they promise customers that it "will work"...I thought the OCAP 2.0 spec. was already established, so what could go wrong? :D

bicker1

12-30-06, 10:35 AM

Hahahahahaha! "What could go wrong?" Each time my salespeople say that (typically in reference to a feature which is spec'ed out and implemented but not yet tested) I come as close to commiting violence as anything! :)

optivity

12-30-06, 10:39 AM

The big question is if the cable companies are going to support 2 way cards: I doubt cablecos will spend any more money on upgrading headend systems after the 1 way card debacleSad... but probably true. So what, if anything, will the Cable MSOs do to improve DRM and create true OpenCable networks?

infradead

12-31-06, 12:34 AM

i work for one of the major cable companies and would like to add to this conversation on CC's the dislike that all installers have for CC's..
unlike a STB there is no way to trouble shoot them, they either work or don't work.. usually don't work..

when we go out with a CC install its common sense to carry 2 CC and a HD STB, because hopefully you can convince the customer not go with the CC because of the loss of feature that a STB 2 way communications allow..

the other horrible thing about CC is that most of the time when you have problems with the install its because the TV's firmware needs to be updated.. when i have a CC job the first thing i do is ask for the manual and call the manufacture to check that the firmware is correct.. nevermind what the dude at bestbuy said when the TV was purchased..

added to that is a horrible design for the CC in the TV itself.. venting is given minimal to no thought.. its a theory that one reasons that CC fail is that they are overheating due to this lack of venting.. i've switched out quite a few that were warmer than i would have thought healthy for any electronics part..

CC are wonderful for a clean install when you just want the extra channels with no box and no wires.. and most of the time as long as the cable signal is strong enough you're going to have no problem.. but the exceptions make everyone who has to deal with them cringe when ever we have to play with them...

[rant mode /off]

PhillyC

12-31-06, 11:57 AM

i work for one of the major cable companies and would like to add to this conversation on CC's the dislike that all installers have for CC's..
unlike a STB there is no way to trouble shoot them, they either work or don't work.. usually don't work..

Yeah, like during the three months it took Comcast to get mine to work in a Sony DVR. I heard all of these stories and more. But ALL of the problems were at Comcast. Then, a year later, when I asked for a card with the newest firmware to solve a known problem with premium channel dropped recordings (yes, this one was the card's fault), the local tech supervisors said such a card did not exist. Of course it did (and had been available for months), and the problem was solved a week later.

Funny how, in each case, a call to the local office from the regional VP's office suddenly solved the problems. How do you explain that?

when we go out with a CC install its common sense to carry 2 CC and a HD STB, because hopefully you can convince the customer not go with the CC because of the loss of feature that a STB 2 way communications allow..

This sounds like typical cableco brainwashing. I personally couldn't care less about On Demand, etc. Most third party equipment is far superior to what the cableco gives you. No way does the cable box give me the quality, HDD space, and reliability of the Sony DVR.

Another example: When I first told Comcast I wanted to use both the Sony cablecard DVR and the Comcast DVR, several people told me I absolutely could not do this, that there was no way it could work. One such person was a tech supervisor. Of course, it could work and does work to this day. How do you explain that?

Sorry to return your rant, but this kind of talk really sets me off. Sure, there have been some problems with TV FW, etc., but cablecard is a great idea. It has been pretty much killed by the problems, which in my experience and estimation are 98% due to the cable companies. I don't know if it is done with malicious intent, or is due to the poor organization and incredible inefficiency of the cableco model. But the cablecos are to blame.

bicker1

12-31-06, 04:45 PM

Putting aside whether or not anyone agrees with you, does it make you feel better to assess blame? Does it help you tune in any channels better? Does it save you money? I think there is an awful lot of mental masturbation going on. Pointless ranting that really doesn't help you accomplish even your own goals.

infradead

12-31-06, 10:26 PM

This sounds like typical cableco brainwashing. I personally couldn't care less about On Demand, etc. Most third party equipment is far superior to what the cableco gives you. No way does the cable box give me the quality, HDD space, and reliability of the Sony DVR.

Another example: When I first told Comcast I wanted to use both the Sony cablecard DVR and the Comcast DVR, several people told me I absolutely could not do this, that there was no way it could work. One such person was a tech supervisor. Of course, it could work and does work to this day. How do you explain that?

now i've not run across the sony you speak of but i would think a two way splitter and good cable signal is all you would nees.. this is one of the problems i have with where i work, as my coworkers learn more and more RF theory and how our system works they tend to be less willing to think out side the box which cuase headaches for our customer.. the i've never seen heard nor read about that no way it would work syndrome

Sorry to return your rant, but this kind of talk really sets me off. Sure, there have been some problems with TV FW, etc., but cablecard is a great idea. It has been pretty much killed by the problems, which in my experience and estimation are 98% due to the cable companies. I don't know if it is done with malicious intent, or is due to the poor organization and incredible inefficiency of the cableco model. But the cablecos are to blame.

i would put it to the later.. CC's are a great idea but STB are what the business model is built upon.. espically with an all digital cable system coming closer and closer, so the main push in training is put towards what techs will see in the field and CC's are an afterthought (if thought is what you would call it..) so few people use CC's however i doubt anything will change soon

PhillyC

01-01-07, 10:43 AM

i would put it to the later.. CC's are a great idea but STB are what the business model is built upon.. espically with an all digital cable system coming closer and closer, so the main push in training is put towards what techs will see in the field and CC's are an afterthought (if thought is what you would call it..) so few people use CC's however i doubt anything will change soon

Yes, I'm surprised at how few CableCARDs are actually in use. But I maintain that this is due in great part to the cablecos who discouraged use of the cards from the outset. It appeared that initially the front line CSRs and techs were purposely kept in the dark about the cards and how they should work, and thus would give out misinformation that would discourage their use.

If you got as far as getting a tech to bring a card to your home, the poor guy was helpless. It wasn't his fault. there are no adjustments to make to the card on site. He just could not contact the right people in the right departments to get the thing working. Things have improved now. three times I lost some of my channels and a call to Comcast each time resulted in a hit to my card and all was well again.

The cableco model is strange though. As I mentioned, I recently got a new card with updated firmware. The local "card expert" was sent to my home by a manager at the local cable office. These were very nice, helpful people. Remember that at this time it's been over a year that I've had a working card and over two years since the cards were mandated by the FCC. Yet it still took the tech more than an hour and many phone calls to different departments to get the new card working! One call would result in activating the card and basic channels. Another might get some premium channels, but not all of them. Finally, everything worked and there have been no glitches in the months since.

So I guess I'm wondering why the cableco does not have a simple install procedure in place, i.e. insert the card, make a single call to a particular department, and voila --- a working card. It seems that any business would want to streamline their systems and procedures to save money. All of this inefficiency costs a fortune and customers pay for it with ridiculously high monthly fees. Maybe the cablecos will never care about waste as long as they can keep increasing their prices at will.

JDrider

01-03-07, 03:31 PM

bplewis24

01-04-07, 03:38 AM

That link doesn't appear to be active.

Brandon

pixelswim

01-06-07, 09:05 AM

Hi there,
Could any of you more technically inclined CC persons explain to me the difference between SVCT and NIT? (If I'm remembering right, these are small(?) component files received during the hit?)

Thanks, --pixelswim

pixelswim

01-06-07, 09:15 AM

..I mean, I think I remember that NIT is "Network Information Table" and VCT is "Virtual Channel Table". Does SVCT mean "Satellite"(?) Virtual Channel Table? even though it is used in a cable system setting? --pixelswim

tungaw

01-08-07, 07:59 PM

Nmlobo

01-08-07, 08:23 PM

That link doesn't appear to be active.

Brandon There was a period at the end of the link posted by JDrider. The link actually works.
http://www.cablelabs.com/udcp/downloads/OC_PNP.pdf

chaz01

01-09-07, 02:37 PM

Tkbalt

01-27-07, 08:42 AM

optivity

01-27-07, 10:48 AM

I bought a new Sony 960N CRT and asked Comcast to come out and install a cablecard. They have now been back twice and I am still not able to get HBO or many other HD channels. The first time they came out they installed card, said it would take 72hrs for card to pull down info and provide HBO. We were able to receive all HD channels except HBO - and HBO never came.

Tech came back a week later - inspected lines, tested signal strength, changed a couple of connectors - still no signal on HBO. He then replaced cablecard with a motorola card - left indicating it would take 72hrs ............ Now - not only do I not get HBO - I am hit or miss getting other HD channels. I get some - but others say no signal - and still no HBO.

Called Comcast and they are sending out a tech Sunday? Any suggestions????? :confused:It's a problem with the channel mappings and authorization at their head-end... pure & simple. If the CableCARD authorizes (1) channel then it should work for all channels you subscribe to. Generally, when a change is made at the head-end... it reaches your network node (a.k.a. TV) within 30 minutes.

chaz01

01-27-07, 11:38 AM

I bought a new Sony 960N CRT and asked Comcast to come out and install a cablecard. They have now been back twice and I am still not able to get HBO or many other HD channels. The first time they came out they installed card, said it would take 72hrs for card to pull down info and provide HBO. We were able to receive all HD channels except HBO - and HBO never came.

Tech came back a week later - inspected lines, tested signal strength, changed a couple of connectors - still no signal on HBO. He then replaced cablecard with a motorola card - left indicating it would take 72hrs ............ Now - not only do I not get HBO - I am hit or miss getting other HD channels. I get some - but others say no signal - and still no HBO.

Called Comcast and they are sending out a tech Sunday? Any suggestions????? :confused:

Gee, these things are SO complicated that years later they still can't get them to work. Other poster is correct. Cable companys don't receive the revenue streams from cablecards for ppv and lease. Do you have any competitors to call? Call Comcast and ask to speak to a supervisor or manager and (politely and professionally) let them know that you are dissatisfied and ask why this process is so difficult for them. They'll install it correctly to avoid these types of conversations.

Tkbalt

01-27-07, 12:03 PM

Thanks for the input - I called Comcast back and got what I assume may be the standard line - we do not recommend cablecards. In any event I expressed my concerns that we get a qualified tech out here. I made the statement that I am certain that 1000's of customers do have cablecards that work and I want to be one of them. They indicated not to make that assumption - that they do not recommend cablecards - that they charge the same for a cablecard as they do for a STB - and we are missing all of the features the STB provides :rolleyes:

chaz01

01-27-07, 12:27 PM

They indicated not to make that assumption - that they do not recommend cablecards - that they charge the same for a cablecard as they do for a STB - and we are missing all of the features the STB provides :rolleyes:

Here in MA, there is no monthly charge for a cablecard. Do they really charge the same in your area? I do think in this world of self centerdness that it's refreshing to see Comcast's extrinsic if not philanthropic concern about your missing out on said features. I got a similar runaround when I had mine installed too. Took several visits, a half a dozen or so phone calls and EVERY call recommended staying with the STB. If you want to go this route, you need to be persistent and even demanding that you be serviced. I had a tech show up with a shiny new STB and said that the work order is for a new STB, not a cablecard. I had another call 15 minutes before close of 4 hour window saying that he just checked the warehouse and they're all out of cablecards at the moment, etc. It's frickin' hysterical the lengths gone to to dissuade customers. My cablecard has performed flawlessly for the 15 months it's been installed. Maybe I should call back Comcast and ask them why they were so concerned back then?!?

UxiSXRD

01-27-07, 01:14 PM

Argh. Tried again for CableCARD. I can't get any of my premium or digital channels (IOW, I don't think the cableCARD is doing anything). They're going to escalate and have another senior tech come out.

I want to move the STB to the bedroom HDTV and clear up some space on the AV rack.

optivity

01-27-07, 02:22 PM

If it wasn't such a pain in your a$$ this would be hysterical! Think about it... Comcastic can build huge IP networks and support broadband connectivity to the Internet, route IP, do VoIP and deliver HDTV... but after 4 years of practice they still can't do a simple CableCARD install, what's up with that? :rolleyes:

chaz01

01-27-07, 02:27 PM

optivity

01-27-07, 02:30 PM

BTW... you might try asking, although I doubt you will get a straight answer, if your local Comcastic provider has moved HBO to switched digital video (SDV), because if they have... channels that rely on SDV are on-demand and require two-way communications (e.g. STB) and can not be received with one-way CableCARDs.

markrubin

01-27-07, 02:50 PM

does Verizon FIOS offer better CableCard implementation?

optivity

01-27-07, 03:19 PM

does Verizon FIOS offer better CableCard implementation?I wish I knew, I've got FiOS cable installed on my street but FiOS TV is not available in the Albany NY region. BTW... my CableCARD from Albany Time Warner has generally operated trouble free for 19 months, so cable providers are capable of supporting this technology, if they want to.

UxiSXRD

01-27-07, 06:33 PM

Spoke a bit too soon. Charter came and finally got the digital, premium, and movie channels working! This guy was only here maybe 10 minutes! The previous guy took over an hour before he said he needed to escalate!

He did swap out the card again. This tech said he was the first Charter tech in the area to do a CableCARD install, though he said it had been a few months since had done one. He said it helped that the guy at the CO was good and familiar with CableCARD, as well. The last on site tech was a novice and said this was his first CableCARD.

Tkbalt

01-28-07, 07:59 AM

Cable guy out this morning - 10 minutes - new card - everything worked immediately. :)

chaz01

01-28-07, 01:15 PM

does Verizon FIOS offer better CableCard implementation?

Mark,

Unsubstantiated but according to forum posters at satelliteguys.us Verizon is not supporting the 1.0 cablecard but will support the 2.0 version when available.

chaz

http://www.satelliteguys.us/archive/index.php/t-52682.html

pixelswim

01-28-07, 01:15 PM

Hey Comcast guys, you are not the only ones! I'm enjoying reading all your stories to keep me entertained while I walk through my "Valley of CableCard..."

I am a Time Warner Cable customer and have had 8 (yes, eight) four-hour sessions (that's 4 days out of work!) with techs at my house attempting to install cablecard. During these sessions I have had multi-hour conversations on the phone with the console fellow - who happens to be quite nice and has a reputation among the techs who come to the house as the only guy who can help them with cablecard.

I guess my story is typical on AVS. I have read all the documents at CableLabs and every paragraph I can find out on the web. I take careful notes and am friendly and polite with the techs. They started calling me 'professor' because they said I seemed to know twice as much as any of their training sessions had involved.

But it has made no difference, nothing works. I am in some black hole out of which none of TWC, Scientific Atlanta, Cablelabs or Samsung seems to be able to be able to lift me. The Samsung 2nd level techs in New Jersey have me repeat the values displayed by the setup pages that the cablecard displays on the screen and they say nothing seems wrong with the cablecard or tv, that it's just not seeing info from the twc headend. The twc console fellow checks with his fellow engineers at twc and they say that of course the headend is always spewing out the info. The techs who bring out the cards are mostly poor teens who are busy calling their girlfriends to say they'll be late and then staying very concerned with giving twc the right codes so they'll get paid.

Meanwhile, it's costing TWC a fair bit because they've given me the latest dvr box for free to allow me to watch my channels while they supposedly figure out how to install a cablecard. The trouble with this is that their work model isn't set up to handle this - it always has to be initiated by me and there is no coordination of effort among the different twc departments.

My dream was to learn a few troubleshooting details about cablecard and post them here to help others but probably I will never know what went wrong. Even if it starts to work someday, the poor fellows will probably not know enough to tell me why! My plan is to become more entrenched and persistent and I hope I will find among the readers of this thread a number of you that know much more than me. Anyway, perhaps you'll remember my story when I post my cablecard questions... cablecard warrior ant signing out... :o

bplewis24

01-29-07, 11:16 AM

Mark,

Unsubstantiated but according to forum posters at satelliteguys.us Verizon is not supporting the 1.0 cablecard but will support the 2.0 version when available.

chaz

http://www.satelliteguys.us/archive/index.php/t-52682.html

Are there TVs on the market that support version 2.0 yet? If not, when are they expected to be available?

Brandon

chaz01

01-29-07, 12:45 PM

Are there TVs on the market that support version 2.0 yet? If not, when are they expected to be available?

Brandon

My cynical view is that the cable companies will lobby hard to end the cablecard madness and get back to providing the wonderful stb's (and their lease streams). In 2005, all the buzz was 2.0 cablecards for 2006. Now it's 2007 and they're not here, and cable companies (per the above posts) still can't figure out the 1.0 cards (yeah, right).

Don't hold your breath.

markrubin

01-29-07, 01:00 PM

chaz01

01-29-07, 01:06 PM

Interesting article. Time will tell...

markrubin

01-29-07, 01:19 PM

chaz01

01-29-07, 04:12 PM

you know if the cablecos took all the money they have spent fighting the Cablecard ,

and the thousands of hours spent by their techs trying to get the cards to work as a result of poor implementation at the headend ...

and instead made a good faith effort to give the card a chance...

well, you get where I am going

The ability to be innovators in their field does not appear to be a high industry characteristic. Their infrastructure is too slow to adapt to changing technology. They will eventually go the way of Ma Bell but will fight to the end. JMO

twelvepbrs

01-29-07, 07:05 PM

chaz01

01-30-07, 03:02 AM

may be a little off topic, but can anyone very that if my TV is properly equiped with a CableCARD i can record encrypted content for to a firewire/1394 AVHD just wanna make sure i can record ESPNHD, etc... before shelling out the $$ for the harddrive

I believe this is dependent on the local provider to what they have the copy ability set to. It works here in MA. YMMV. You may want to post question in regional specific thread.

bicker1

01-30-07, 07:44 AM

you know if the cablecos took all the money they have spent fighting the Cablecard , and the thousands of hours spent by their techs trying to get the cards to work as a result of poor implementation at the headend ... and instead made a good faith effort to give the card a chance... well, you get where I am goingNo, I don't think we really know what the result would have been. I suspect, as likely as not, they would have quickly brought them to a place where they were making less profit.

pixelswim

01-30-07, 08:00 AM

markrubin

01-30-07, 08:12 AM

Mark,

Unsubstantiated but according to forum posters at satelliteguys.us Verizon is not supporting the 1.0 cablecard but will support the 2.0 version when available.

chaz

http://www.satelliteguys.us/archive/index.php/t-52682.html

I checked with Ken Ross, who has a Tivo series 3 and just switched to Verizon Fios: he says the Cablecards in the Tivo work great (1 way cards)

So Comcast; it can be done...and it is being done by your competitor

pixelswim

01-30-07, 08:25 AM

michaelk

01-30-07, 02:21 PM

also for what it's worth there is no such thing as a cablecard 2.0.

there are S-cards (single stream original cards) and more recently there are supposed to be M-cards- that will work in multituner devices like PIP tv's or DVR's- M cards will revert to S-card compatibility mode if the device requires it.

Some people think of cablecard 2.0 as being 2-way but the reality is the cards themselves are exactly the same (s or m) it's just a matter of if the device you put them in is 2-way or 1-way.

So if verizon can work with cablecards it works with cablecards there is no 1.0 or 2.0. If you check the tivo forums there are plently of people using the cards on VZ. VZ told the FCC they would support them.

It's just a blatent mistruth for anyone to say otherwise.

bfoster

01-30-07, 02:54 PM

also for what it's worth there is no such thing as a cablecard 2.0.

You are mistaken.

http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html

michaelk

01-30-07, 03:25 PM

You are mistaken.

http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html

sorry for my confusion.

here's their quick summary:

CableCARD Terminology
Since CableCARD-2.0 Interface specifications now included all the requirements from both the original (single-stream) CableCARD interface and the new (multi-stream) CableCARD interface, terminology was developed to distinguish between the two different operating modes and product types:

S-CARD: A two-way CableCARD module that follows the original CableCARD 1.0 Interface specification or implements only the single-stream portion of the CableCARD-2.0 Interface specification.

M-Card: A two-way CableCARD module that implements all of the multi-stream functionality as well as the single-stream functionality (for backward compatibility purposes) of the CableCARD-2.0 Interface specification.

I guess many (including myself-LOL) confuse 2-way with 2.0 and my point was they are not one and the same.

But my original point still applies- verizon is handing out cards now. Even if they were M--cards (2.0 cards) they would need to be backwars compatiable with S-cards (1.0 cards) so waiting for 2.0 doesn't matter as those cards will need to work in 1.0 devices that exist today.

(Oh gees- I'm just reading what they said and now getting totally confused about 2-way 'cause they are calling them "two way" themselves. But I think there is mass confusion even with cablelabs primer becasue TIVO just led the fight to get to use 2.0 cards in M-card mode in unidirectional devices like TiVo.)

<throws hands up>

sorry

gigaguy

01-30-07, 10:03 PM

optivity

01-30-07, 10:18 PM

Isn't it hilarious to know that when the Cable MSOs migrate to SDV we will need a STB to take the place of our one-way CableCARDs! :p :rolleyes: :D :eek: :cool: :) :mad: :confused: :(

pixelswim

01-31-07, 09:31 AM

I gave up. TW here is making all their new channels and plenty of other HD channels 'switched' and say cablecards will not tune these. After 3 months of trying cablecards in my 2 Sony DHG-HDD500 HD DVRs I gave up.
They would only tune some of the HD channels, and one never worked at all, even tho they tried numerous cards.
I'm filing a complaint that they should not offer cablecard service if they are not going to fully support and service cards, they need to be upfront and tell customers what channels the cablecards will not tune, explain more effectively their $30 mandatory service call to install cards, and their fee to come and take returned cards. It's enough to make you hate the C word.....cable.

What I have been doing is calling the TWC billing people and explaining carefully and firmly (always requires multiple escalations and time while rep asks supervisor for each line item) that they are providing my hd-dvr and associated charges for free until they figure out and implement the cablecard. I explain that I will pay no service call charges, no one-time startup charges, no charges for cablecards and no charges whatsoever for the hd-dvr UNTIL the cablecard works. I also politely state that I will happily pay the monthly charge for each HD premium that I am getting temporarily via the hd-dvr box, just like I will pay it after the cablecard starts working (that part always helps.)

So far, this has been working but I don't know how much longer I can keep it up. It's pretty easy to tell that there is little coordination between billing and console and management - it's as if each is it's own company and waits for me to initiate and call the shots on all this. I'm the one who has to do all the communication between the three departments (or however they are organized/not organized.)

Right after the superbowl I'm going to start another offensive. My assumption is that if I'm lucky, something currently unknown will eventually turn up: Perhaps their headend software will need an upgrade. Perhaps it's not compatible with the cablecards they currently have (even though they both are probably SA.) Perhaps the new Samsung TVs with cablecard slots need a firmware update before they will work with the TWC cablecards (Scientific Atlanta PowerKEY model PKM600 - latest date on all 10 or so we tried was "5/09/2006")

However, all evidence is that the Samsung is basically happy with the PKM600: it will display the two cablecard status screens with dozens of values displayed and some numbers in those displays are dynamically updated as you watch. On the Samsung you just hit mute,1,8,5,exit for "Diagnostic Status II" (where the more important diags are) or mute,1,8,4,exit for "Diagnostic Status I."

Hey, aren't there any Scientific Atlanta engineers hanging out here in AVSforum?? I mean, geez, the PowerKEY cablecard actually says on it "Conditional Access Module: YOUR KEY TO THE WORLD" So far, that KEY can't seem to turn the lock to get outside my house.

--pixelswim (yes, I had coffee this morning, can't you tell?)

pixelswim

01-31-07, 09:55 AM

You are mistaken.

http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html

bfoster, I think you and michaelk are both correct in some ways. The 2.0 spec is there in the cablelabs documentation, BUT, isn't it true in a sense that both the cablecard 2.0 spec -and- DCAS (which I believe is also written up at cablelabs (someone correct me if not)) are both just -proposals- put forth by the cable companies and both are still subject to the no-mans-land between the cablecos, the CEs and the FCC.

Part of the power of cablelabs is that they can produce a spec, give it a version and then their members can even start implementing it, with all the attendent publication of version numbers and the like, but it's not necessarily agreed to by the FCC (who I picture as the little group sitting between the two big groups of lobbyists for the cablecos and the CEs, both of which want to make more money in STB/DVR-land and beyond that are hoping for a more general thing called control.)

videobruce

01-31-07, 10:19 AM

Am I correct by saying that a cable company doesn't have to allow the customer install a CC? They can require a tech to do so.

pixelswim

01-31-07, 10:45 AM

Am I correct by saying that a cable company doesn't have to allow the customer install a CC? They can require a tech to do so.

As far as I know, yes, they can do that, although if you look back at the history of the idea of cablecard, it actually goes against the original hopes the engineers had I think. I think the hope was that people would be able to pick up a cable card at the local billing office or receive it in the mail and then just call a phone number and follow instructions to read back the mac address and other values the cableco needs for "the hit" when the card receives it's enabler files.

Then the customer could mail the card back in if he/she was relocated and moving to a different city. The vision was -less- driving & effort by techs than with the cable box, but of course it hasn't worked out that way.

The current "value add" of the tech visit seems to be:
1) the delivery of the card
2) the bypass of the customer house wiring (bypass amplifiers especially) during the hit.
3) the phone-in of the card status fields after boot-up
4) the monitoring of "the hit" and the channel-reordering process
5) the re-scheduling of the next visit after the card doesn't work

I'm sure that was more than you asked for but did it help?

Contsi

01-31-07, 10:49 AM

Isn't it hilarious to know that when the Cable MSOs migrate to SDV we will need a STB to take the place of our one-way CableCARDs! :p :rolleyes: :D :eek: :cool: :) :mad: :confused: :(

It's probably been addressed here but what happened to the mandate that they must provide all content without the need for a cable box or STB?

gigaguy

01-31-07, 11:47 AM

I'm contemplating trying cablecard again (ugh) because after a month of using their box I realize the HD channels I can not tune with cc are not that great. I mainly wanted HBOHD and DiscovHD which the cc tuned on one of my HD DVRS, but not the other one. Both worked for a while and then one stopped tuning.

I've heard every lame and ignorant answer to my questions to the cableco and it is so true that their depts do not integrate at all. It's a shame that my 2 fantastic Sony HD DVRs cannot tune most of the cableco HD channels because TW does not support cc.

Just having to deal with the cableco is frustrating, not to mention all the time away from my job to be home to hold the hand of their techs who probably would be challenged setting up rabbit ears.

I sound bitter, I feel trapped by cable since standard service is provided by my condo's HOA. Wish me luck.

markrubin

01-31-07, 11:49 AM

The current "value add" of the tech visit seems to be:
1) the delivery of the card
2) the bypass of the customer house wiring (bypass amplifiers especially) during the hit.
3) the phone-in of the card status fields after boot-up
4) the monitoring of "the hit" and the channel-reordering process
5) the re-scheduling of the next visit after the card doesn't work

you left out:

6)the blame game: tell the customer it is his TV that is at fault and to contact the TV maker for a firmware upgrade
7) the bait and switch: tell the customer he really needs one of their STB's instead of a Cablecard since cards never work anyway

pixelswim

01-31-07, 01:00 PM

you left out:

6)the blame game: tell the customer it is his TV that is at fault and to contact the TV maker for a firmware upgrade
7) the bait and switch: tell the customer he really needs one of their STB's instead of a Cablecard since cards never work anyway

You're so right, ha! But I was for a bit trying to take the high road and too off on the sarcasm.

I'm actually hoping to find the time to run with two little sub-theads for my own cablecard troubles. In one I hope to see if I can get any insight from all the smart guys who read this thread into my own particular problem and set of hardware/software/service. In the other I've been hoping to strike up a conversation about the whole general thing of our sources of cablecard information that's accurate and technical (more later I hope!) Best, --pixelswim

masbama

01-31-07, 01:15 PM

chaz01

01-31-07, 01:20 PM

Isn't it hilarious to know that when the Cable MSOs migrate to SDV we will need a STB to take the place of our one-way CableCARDs! :p :rolleyes: :D :eek: :cool: :) :mad: :confused: :(

ROFLMAO God, we're suckers!

michaelk

01-31-07, 01:43 PM

bfoster, I think you and michaelk are both correct in some ways. The 2.0 spec is there in the cablelabs documentation, BUT, isn't it true in a sense that both the cablecard 2.0 spec -and- DCAS (which I believe is also written up at cablelabs (someone correct me if not)) are both just -proposals- put forth by the cable companies and both are still subject to the no-mans-land between the cablecos, the CEs and the FCC.

Part of the power of cablelabs is that they can produce a spec, give it a version and then their members can even start implementing it, with all the attendent publication of version numbers and the like, but it's not necessarily agreed to by the FCC (who I picture as the little group sitting between the two big groups of lobbyists for the cablecos and the CEs, both of which want to make more money in STB/DVR-land and beyond that are hoping for a more general thing called control.)

to be honest I'm a clearly a bit confused but trying to understand more i THINK (at this instant in time- LOL) - that the cablecard 1.0 and 2.0 standards are in fact real. I believe the 2.0 cards are in production and workign their way into the wild.

BUT (again my current understanding) is that there is no an agreed upon TWO WAY satandard for devices that you would put said cards into.

There is a standard for one way devices that people build today like tv's and tivo's. These devices use 1.0 cards or 2.0 cards that revert to 1.0/S-card mode when placed in unidirectional 1.0 devices. The FCC apparently has mandated compliance with this spec- in that just about all digital cable company's (minor exceptions for dinks) have to support these devices if a customer buys one.

There is also apparently a standard for putting 2.0 cards in M-card mode into ONE WAY devices built to accept the 2.0 M-cards. This standard is VERY new- and basically just got done in the fall due to TiVo's compllaints to the FCC that their Series 3 cablecard tivo wasn't allowed to use the fancy new M-cards so tivo users were goign to get double charged to use two s-cards. I suspect that the reason that cablelabs releneted is the FCC would be apt to force the issue on this too if it came down to it. The FCC asked for status updates on the M-cards and cable told them like this time last year that as of mid 2006 M-cards would be deployed in the wild.

The big gray iffy area is the 2-way standard for "host" devices. There is a standard that cablelabs printed up and supposedly their members will abide by. But it currently is not accepted by the CEA (although some members appear to be trying to build devices to comply with the current spec). The hole us is apparently that the spec for 2-way hosts says that OCAP is required. OCAP in it's current unagreed upon standard (again cablelabs has one but the CEA as a hole isn't happy)- essentially requiores the device to be built so that the cable compnay will donwload cable software onto it. So you could buy a tivo or sony or panasonic or even microsoft branded DVR but you would get the crappy tvguide or passport software your cable company is using forced onto whatever box you decide. Essentially the consumer would be forced to pay for all the hardware required for cables' customers premises equipment but would still get stuck with cable's crappy monopoly software.

The FCC has yet to way in on what the hell to do about 2-way devices. (and that's why switched video is such a terrible mess becasue there is no standard for the dvr or tv makers to built to)

again- that's my current understanding of a big complex mess.

anyone feel free to update or correct.

pixelswim

01-31-07, 06:15 PM

...[OCAP]... Essentially the consumer would be forced to pay for all the hardware required for cables' customers premises equipment but would still get stuck with cable's crappy monopoly software....

michaelk, yes, pretty good summary of many of the same things I've been reading (Wikipedia, links at end of wikipedia article, cablelabs articles, mark rubin's link just above, scientific atlanta docs on their web site, gov websites for the telecommunications acts -- hey anybody-please add!)

But I particularly like your thought about how the cableco software updates could make things hard to swallow for consumers and CE. There is also the legitimate concern of CE companies that after-the-fact software changes could introduce bugs in the operation of their equipment and they would be seen in a negative way by their customers despite it not being their fault.

bfoster

01-31-07, 06:50 PM

pixelswim

02-01-07, 12:12 AM

You guys should really read this link and others found on it. There is so much misinformation above about CableCard s, m 1.0, 2.0, OCAP and DCAS my head is spinning! :)

http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html

Yes, I've read all the cablelabs opencable pages a couple of times. I think michaelk was putting some of it in his own words, which I like because sometimes that brings out ideas one hasn't thought of.

Actually, -all- of the external links at the end of the wikipedia cablecard article are interesting -- you agree?

videobruce

02-01-07, 07:00 AM

The vision was -less- driving & effort by techs than with the cable box, but of course it hasn't worked out that way. But, who's fault is that?? They complained about "truck rolls", but then when they have a vehicle (the CC) to reduce service calls, they don't want to use it because they want that PPV income. $$$ :mad:

BTW, interesting read on that CC Primer. Never thought about the one-way limitation being the host device (as probably many others haven't either).

twelvepbrs

02-01-07, 10:35 AM

But, who's fault is that?? They complained about "truck rolls", but then when they have a vehicle (the CC) to reduce service calls, they don't want to use it because they want that PPV income. $$$ :mad:

BTW, interesting read on that CC Primer. Never thought about the one-way limitation being the host device (as probably many others haven't either).
Do a lot of people buy PPV content? I'm trying to ditch my STB, and unless you cound MLBEI and ESPN Gameplan, i've never bought a single PPV program, I really didnt think that many people used them, kinda guessed that if you averaged PPV consumption among all cable customers the average was about one program per year per customer

pixelswim

02-01-07, 10:45 AM

videobruce wrote:

"BTW, interesting read on that CC Primer. Never thought about the one-way limitation being the host device (as probably many others haven't either)."

After I read the CC Primer article a while back I started thinking of the CC as a very limited part of the overall CC system. The card only contains the part of the circuit that decrypts the channels based on the entitlement info it receives. The tv, pvr or other host device contains a lot more of the cablecard implementation.

What do others know about the -details- of the little part the CC does? The CC Primer points out that the CC itself is capable of being used with any of the 3 languages out there, Aloha, DAVIC or DSG. It can recognize whether there are upstream transmitters in the host device for any of these languages and use the transmiiter to send info back to the cableco if the host has a 2-way capability (virtually no host out there does yet, I don't think.)

Here's what I've cobbled together as to details: I think there are 2 little files, the SVCT and the NIT that come down to the CC during a successful hit (hit=the download of your individual info that comes down from the headend when the tech in your house tells the headend guy your tv&CC are ready to receive it (the initial time.)) I think (but do not know for sure) that one of these files contains the entitlement info (what premium services you are paying for that will be descrambled) and the other contains the channel re-ordering table that the cableco is currently using (eg. says that ESPNHD coming in on one physical digital channel should be renumbered to be channel 290 or whatever.) My assumption is that the CC has some flash memory to hold this from then on, but I don't know that the flash mem is actually on the CC. (Can anyone confirm/refute the details in this paragraph?)

OK, one more question for ya: I think that when you see that your cableco (like my TWC-CentralNC) uses Scientific Atlanta, that means it's using the DAVIC language. Can anyone confirm that, or does SA use different of these 3 languages for different products? Does anyone know what language Comcast uses?

I know that there are Motorola CC systems out there (I think..) and I wonder what language those use?

(BTW, where I'm going here is this: I feel like I need to "reverse-engineer" some knowlege of how this system works in order to be able to converse with TWC and Samsung and help then figure out why it doesn't work for me. This is not to mention that I also find it interesting and fun just to know about it. If anyone else gets a kick out of figuring out this stuff, please join in!

...I'm not an engineer but just feel like there must be some avsforum guys who would get a benefit from knowing the practical aspects of the overall system design here in enough detail to share troubleshooting info.)

pixelswim

02-01-07, 10:57 AM

I love my cablecard (read my letter in the Dec. 2006 S&V mag.) It was installed in 10 minutes by Comcast almost 2 years ago and has worked fine. TV is a Sony 34xs955. I want to buy a Samsung LNS5088 and I hope the cable card will work as well in it too. Does anyone have a LNS**88 with a cablecard? How does it work?

I'm trying to become like you but I don't have Comcast or Sony. I'm not familiar with the LNS5088, is it european? I don't see it among Samsung's current LCD offerings in the USA.

I'm just a sample-size of one but my new Samsung so far does not work with TWC Scientific Atlanta cablecard. Does Comcast use Moto or SA cablecards? Perhaps there are Samsung owners out there who have cablecards working?

sam57

02-01-07, 03:38 PM

After my little intro up in post #583 I would like to start with the most straight-forward question first:

Does anyone out there know right off of any problems with the following combination: New Samsung LCD (xx96D series Oct 2006) with CableCard slot; Scientific Atlanta cablecard handed out by TWC; TWC (Central NC) cablecard service.

In addition to direct experience with the above, I'd obviously be interested in suggestions about the best approach to troubleshooting. What, in the end, paid off the best for you?

(Note that I'm already deep in the valley... TWC says Samsung has not implemented the cablecard slot correctly. Samsung says the slot is fine and TWC is not doing something right.)

Thanks for your thoughts, pixelswim

I don't have the same combination but close. SAMSUNG DLP HL-S6188W (DLP) and cox cable. Had similar issues first, but finally got it to work. I suspect it is the Clock. Some how the CableCARD need to synchronize the time from the TV.

Try this: Turn your TV OFF, unplug the TV for few minutes, Turn TV on and then manually set the clock. Insert the CableCard, the TV should detect the card. Go to the Set Up menu then to the CABLECARD menu and see if the EMM and other number will change, give it few seconds exit the menu and go back in to see if it updated, The time, and encryption should display OK and the TV should disply “updating Channel List” and then display “completed” see if you get any channels at this time or you may have to call the cable company, read them the cable serial number, the host ID and ask them to send you the signal. Good luck. I am not setting by the TV now and since I have another model the menu labels may be deferent.

masbama

02-01-07, 07:25 PM

Sorry-It is the HLS5088 (I think) . The 1080p RPTV with cable card. I think the card is a motorola.

masbama

02-01-07, 07:27 PM

twelvepbrs

02-01-07, 07:38 PM

You CAN order PPV with a cable card. I do it every college football season with certain games shown only on PPV. Just call them up; they will activate the channel and bill you. Most operators don't even know they can do it.
Ah, i have a feeling there's some miscommunication then, i'm guessing you obviously can't order PPV directly through your TV (at least until more sophisticated CC hosts are built), but you CAN order it by call the cable co, is it possible that a lot of people have read that they can't order it throught their tv and misunderestimated that to mean they can't order it at all?
On another note, masbama, you order individual games from espn gameplan? i may do that this year instead of shelling out for the whole season, since there's probably only about five games i'd wanna see, unless online gambling gets easier, but that's another story

masbama

02-01-07, 08:20 PM

You can order individual games thru gameplan if your cable company supports Gameplan. Some don't. It has nothing to do with the cablecard. I order Alabama games when they are only shown on PPV or Gameplan. How I found out is that I have digital cable thru a cablecard. I ordered and they asked if I was receving the active channel. I said yes THEN told them I had a cablecard. They always say "I didn't know you can do that with a cablecard" You can. Remember-it's one way. They can send anything they want one way-we just have to call and request it.

bfoster

02-01-07, 08:30 PM

I order Alabama games when they are only shown on PPV or Gameplan.

You pay to see Alabama Football? :eek:

Where's that thumb? :p

http://www.tigerrags.com/images/au375-white-front-med.jpg

twelvepbrs

02-01-07, 08:50 PM

You pay to see Alabama Football? :eek:

Where's that thumb? :p

that's cool, i hold all the cards right now, oh, and my condolences on when saban gets fired in a year or two and you still have to cough up 15 million
::CHOMP::
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/90/Gator_head_logo.jpg

bfoster

02-01-07, 08:54 PM

He'll be much more offended by my picture than yours. :D

pixelswim

02-01-07, 08:57 PM

I don't have the same combination but close. SAMSUNG DLP HL-S6188W (DLP) and cox cable. Had similar issues first, but finally got it to work. I suspect it is the Clock. Some how the CableCARD need to synchronize the time from the TV.

<...steps to sync tv clock with cc clock...>.

sam57 you are a saint! I hate that you had to type all those steps in. I should have thrown in a sentence to say that it's not the clock sync problem.

Unfortunately I went through the whole clock sync problem with the help of Samsung Tier2 and TWC both on the phone with me -- we were very hopeful but it didn't solve my problem.

For any Samsung owners out there who run across this post later, here's more about "the clock sync problem." The symptom for me with several physical cablecards went as follows: One of the first steps in cablecard installation is to perform an "update channel list" or a "cablecard reset." Either of these operations, after a very long (probably much > 10 min) wait, would result in the error message: "Validity period of CableCARD Invalid, Current: 31-Dec-2003. Please Check." After multiple replays of this, the techs & console guy would understandably say a new cablecard was needed and we'd be back at it the next day. Finally, the TWC console guy got Samsung on the line and Samsung recognized it right away as "the clock sync problem."

You do what sam57 says and go into the tv settings menus and manually reset the time-of-day clock (even if the time is already right.) This makes the cablecard happy and you never see that error message again. I could tell from the way Samsung Tier2 talked that this usually solved most problems with Samsungs and cablecards.

For me it just got us past that error message but we could never get all the way through "update channel list." We never saw "Channel List Complete" like it says we should in the Samsung tv manual. My notes get vague here but I remember that the EMM count (Entitlement Management Messages) was important and wasn't right (I think it never went above zero) and there was something about OOB (Out Of Band) but I can't remember what we were looking for there. At this point the Samsung Tier2 tech became adamant that the cablecard status fields showed that the cablecard was not getting the messages it was supposed to from the headend (and he really seemed to know what he was talking about - he knew the meaning of all the different cablecard status fields (dozens of them) and he seemed to know the sequence of events to expect. In response, the TWC console tech went to talk to his engineers and came back saying that the headend was sending out the signals all the time and there couldn't be any problem with them.

OK, I know many of you that stuck with me this long are screaming for mercy so I'll stop now. But please, please, if this triggers anyone to add knowlege, then just shout downward... I'm down here in...The Valley of CableCARD!
-- pixelswim

masbama

02-01-07, 09:28 PM

God-you people just don't get it. The party is officially over for the former East Alabama Male College. And Gator guy(or gal)-why would Saban be fired in two years? Dumb statement.

bfoster

02-01-07, 10:04 PM

Why would Saban be fired? Why would Shula be fired six months into a six year deal? I feel for ya man, really. ;) :D :)

videobruce

02-01-07, 10:47 PM

You CAN order PPV with a cable card. I do it every college football season with certain games shown only on PPV. Just call them up; they will activate the channel and bill you. Most operators don't even know they can do it. I can't see ordering a PPV movie since that same movie will be on some other premium channel sooner or later. It's the same movie, I don't have to be the first on the block to see it. That surely doesn't bother me so I never thought about just calling up their office and ordering a PPV event.
How many systems would/could accept this verbablly over the phone??

One strong argument against STBs'. ;)

optivity

02-01-07, 11:07 PM

The MPAA and the NCTA have gone well beyond what is acceptable with this so called DRM copy protection stranglehold.
Interlectual property my ass. Enough is enough!But Dude... Hollywood has the right to protect and copyright the intellectual property that created a masterpiece like "Joey!" :p

videobruce

02-01-07, 11:12 PM

No idea what that is......................
Protect it from what?

masbama

02-01-07, 11:18 PM

If you watched any game last year you would be able to answer your own question. Silly boogs.

optivity

02-02-07, 07:07 AM

No idea what that is......................
Protect it from what?Pirates, matey.... arrrgh! ;)

michaelk

02-02-07, 02:59 PM

You guys should really read this link and others found on it. There is so much misinformation above about CableCard s, m 1.0, 2.0, OCAP and DCAS my head is spinning! :)

http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html

I dont trust cablelabspublic relations webpages to provide the entire truth honestly.

You have to read the actual specs (sometimes I get the urge and look something up- other times not) but also on the contentious issues like OCAP and DCAS you need to see what the opposing point of view is.

The best places I actually have seen to learn are at the tivocommunity Series3 forums. There are about 3 or 4 people that are intricately involved in these standards from both sides that help explain the reality to those of us without degrees in broadcast television.

But anyway- feel free to correct any misinformation- I'd love to learn more. I find it interesting and think it will have a significant effect on everyone in the future.

videobruce

02-02-07, 03:14 PM

f you watched any game last year Game? Game show, sports type of game, video game??

Sorry, don't watch any of that.

optivity

02-02-07, 10:26 PM

The best places I actually have seen to learn are at the tivocommunity Series3 forums. There are about 3 or 4 people that are intricately involved in these standards from both sides that help explain the reality to those of us without degrees in broadcast television.Suffice it to say... most likely we will never be able to archive HD content w/IEEE 1394 to DVD or a PC's HDD. :(

videobruce

02-03-07, 10:31 AM

Suffice it to say... most likely we will never be able to archive HD content w/IEEE 1394 to DVD or a PC's HDD. It's been done for the past couple of years with HD tuner cards (at least to HDDs').

Have you looked here;
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=26&page=1&sort=lastpost&order=&pp=35&daysprune=365

pixelswim

02-04-07, 12:07 PM

<...>.

The best places I actually have seen to learn are at the tivocommunity Series3 forums. There are about 3 or 4 people that are intricately involved in these standards from both sides that help explain the reality to those of us without degrees in broadcast television.

But anyway- feel free to correct any misinformation- I'd love to learn more. I find it interesting and think it will have a significant effect on everyone in the future.
Any chance you'd mention the 3 or 4 people?

Vampyro

02-04-07, 12:54 PM

its funny how my cablecard in the living room on my Sony Sxrd XBR1 works perfectly with HBO and my HP Pavilion LC2600N in the bedroom doesnt get HBO....is it the splitters? will some sort amplifier help? I get the channels but they are black screens with no picture. I think having the tech come out again will be useless, any advice?

videobruce

02-04-07, 01:11 PM

Bypass the splitters with barrels and see if that works.

Vampyro

02-04-07, 01:15 PM

barrels as in extension connecters?

Vampyro

02-04-07, 01:26 PM

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/2/312264.jpg Here is an interesting thread regarding Cable Card featuring the article from Sound & Vision

Click Here (http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/2/176786.html)

pixelswim

02-05-07, 07:55 AM

[IMG]<...>... Here is an interesting thread regarding Cable Card featuring the article from Sound & Vision <...>ere[/URL]

Vanpyro, this is a really good link and I thank you for it. There are some posts there that mention the same CC configuration fields (CPAuth, EMMcount etc.) that were obviously critical when the CC techs were at my house, but in these posts there are some intelligent statements about what should be -expected- in these fields during the CC setup process.

My feeling is that the better we cablecard users understand the process, the better our "suggestions" can be to the befuddled cable installers who receive little training about cablecard systems. These links to the ecoustics forum and the tivo series3 forum are good for cablecard info.

videobruce

02-05-07, 12:05 PM

barrels as in extension connecters? Yes. female to female.

PGHammer

02-05-07, 05:29 PM

Isn't it hilarious to know that when the Cable MSOs migrate to SDV we will need a STB to take the place of our one-way CableCARDs! :p :rolleyes: :D :eek: :cool: :) :mad: :confused: :(
The *only* company looking to implement SDV in a major way is TW (and even TW won't implement it everywhere, or even in half their systems; they will implement it primarily in systems they have acquired that they will not upgrade to 750 MHz as an alternative to upgrading).

Comcast: They not only have no test implementations of SDV anywhere, but have actually stated *categorically* that they won't implement it anywhere in their footprint.

VZ: No idea if they are even thinking about SDV.

THe real skinny about the FCC's denial of Comcast's waiver request: The waiver request was tied specifically to a *delay* in implementation of the use of STBs as host devices for CCs; specifically, the small DCT-7xx series all-digital STB from Motorola cannot be converted to a host device for CCs. The reasoning behind the FCC's denial was because TiVo had already made available the Series 3 TiVo device (which is about the same size and price as the DCT-7xx); further, Motorola has been in the process of converting their larger DCT-2xxx/6xxx-series STBs into CC host devices. The basic result is that Comcast will wind up removing the DCT-7xx STBs from their systems and replacing them with compliant STBs (either Series3 TiVos or converted Moto/S-A/Panasonic STBs which can act as CC host devices). The net result is that TiVo gains entry into the STB marketplace.

keenan

02-05-07, 06:19 PM

Comcast: They not only have no test implementations of SDV anywhere, but have actually stated *categorically* that they won't implement it anywhere in their footprint.

You've got some bad info on Comcast, from Multichannel News,

Comcast Sets Switched-Video Rollout
By Todd Spangler 1/25/2007 6:40:00 PM

Houston -- Comcast is conducting trials of switched digital video in two markets and expects to deploy services based on the technology in the second half of 2007, vice president of production-platform engineering Rick Rioboli said.

Rioboli, speaking on a panel at the Society of Cable Telecommunications Engineers’ Conference on Emerging Technologies here Wednesday, said switched digital video will be the key mechanism to let operators deliver more HD channels.

"If a programmer comes to us and says, 'We want you to carry new HD channels' … we’re stuck in that bandwidth problem," he added. The move to switched digital video will mean "we don’t have to plan two or three years in advance which channels we’re going to be dropping to carry HD."

Switched-digital-video systems can deliver channels more efficiently than broadcasting them by sending video streams to a subscriber only when a channel is requested. The assumption is that not every channel in a switched group will be viewed simultaneously.

In an interview, Rioboli said the trials in the first half of the year are intended to make sure that the systems are technically stable and Comcast can effectively manage them.

"We're done with the vendor evaluation and system design," he added. "Now we need to get to the point where we can realistically deploy and manage it."

Rioboli declined to specify the two trial markets. Comcast is a customer of BigBand Networks, a maker of switched-digital-video gear, according to BigBand's regulatory filing last month for its initial public offering.

Cablevision Systems this week became the first major operator to announce services made available through switched digital video with the launch of iO International, a group of nine in-language packages featuring dozens of channels from around the world in Spanish, Russian, Chinese, Hindi and other languages.

Cablevision is using BigBand's equipment to offer iO International to all of its 2.3 million digital-cable subscribers.

http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6410009.html?display=Breaking+News
Comcast Sets Switched-Video Rollout - 1/25/2007 6:40:00 PM - Multichannel News

dt_dc

02-05-07, 06:46 PM

The *only* company looking to implement SDV in a major way is TW (and even TW won't implement it everywhere, or even in half their systems; they will implement it primarily in systems they have acquired that they will not upgrade to 750 MHz as an alternative to upgrading).Hmmm
http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6408717.html?display=Search+Results&text=Time+Warner

Multichannel News
Rollouts Fuel Switching Buzz
(...)
And certainly logical for Time Warner, which plans to deploy switched digital in all of its markets.BTW, Cox, CableVision, and Comcast (as mentioned above) are all starting SDV deployments. Comcast said they are commiting the money to deploy SDV in 30% of their markets.

A/Vspec

02-05-07, 07:06 PM

bfoster

02-05-07, 07:29 PM

SDV requires two-way communication. So, yes.

Mikef5

02-05-07, 10:52 PM

“The SDV driver is more HD content. SDV will allow 10-14 HD channels per QAM [quadrature amplitude modulation] instead of just two per QAM without it. That’s a substantial difference. SDV allows you to not squander the programs.”

So will all current clear QAM tuners need to be replaced to pickup SDV?
Just to clear up what Switched Video does or doesn't do read this article......

http://www.bigbandnet.com/products/sol_switch_broadcast.php

This is the system that Comcast has said will probably be used in their deployment of their Switched Video. This probably won't happen anytime soon and most assuredly not this year. Right now there is no pressure on Comcast or any other cable company to deploy this, they have enough bandwidth in most areas to put this off until the Satco's deploy more satellites and increase their bandwidth and add more content.

Laters,
Mikef5

videobruce

02-06-07, 07:41 AM

The assumption is that not every channel in a switched group will be viewed simultaneously. MSO mentality; making an 'ass' out of 'u' and of 'me'. :rolleyes: So will all current clear QAM tuners need to be replaced to pickup SDV? SDV requires two-way communication. So, yes. Then they can buy me three new devices that have suitable tuners to replace my three devices that won't work with their 'new and improved' system. :mad:

bicker1

02-06-07, 11:42 AM

MSO mentality; making an 'ass' out of 'u' and of 'me'. :rolleyes: It's not an assumption, though. It is a projection based on hard-data, available to the cable companies today. They can readily learn exactly what the viewing profile is for each channel, and from that can determine how often SDV will result in a "channel not available" error because of lack of available bandwidth. They then just need to look at the market to determine an acceptable level of that condition (which is a lot higher than a lot of people are willing to admit) and thereby determine just how many channels can be SDV'ed together.

Then they can buy me three new devices that have suitable tuners to replace my three devices that won't work with their 'new and improved' system. :mad:They point is that "no they don't." They can simply require you to use their equipment. If the market is willing to bear that, then it is the right thing to do IMHO, even though it seriously disadvantages me personally.

jmallory

02-06-07, 11:44 AM

MSO mentality; making an 'ass' out of 'u' and of 'me'. :rolleyes: Then they can buy me three new devices that have suitable tuners to replace my three devices that won't work with their 'new and improved' system. :mad:

Chances are programming that is traditionally sent in the clear such as your local HD channels would most likely not be sent via SDV. Those channels would not benefit from SDV as they are watched often enough that they would always be broadcasted. SDV will more than likely be used for more niche offerings such as the Sports Packages and probably some of the premium multiplex channels such as "HBO Comedy."

-- Jim

twelvepbrs

02-06-07, 12:00 PM

bfoster

02-06-07, 12:08 PM

In the quote, 10-14 with SDV 2 without, per QAM. Being 1 256 QAM or one analog.

jmallory

02-06-07, 02:15 PM

In the quote, 10-14 with SDV 2 without, per QAM. Being 1 256 QAM or one analog.

Any particular one channel with 256 QAM can only support two HD streams simultaneously. SDV does not change that, what SDV allows you to do is to change what programming is using that bandwidth based on the what the subscribers want to watch during the day. The white papers on the company's web site do a good job of describing what SDV is.

http://www.bigbandnet.com/

MSOs can use this technology to increase their service offerings by taking advantage of the fact that 80% of subscribers are only watching 20% of the available content at any one point in time.

How it is described above makes it sound like a compression or rate-shaping scheme and it it's not.

Maybe a simple way of putting it is that SDV does not increase capacity but allows the capacity to be more intelligently utilized based on the actual demands and activity of the subscribers.

Some HD content that is viewed on a very regular basis (like HD locals) would probably never be put on SDV as it would not provide a gain in bandwidth.

twelvepbrs

02-06-07, 02:52 PM

Any particular one channel with 256 QAM can only support two HD streams simultaneously. SDV does not change that, what SDV allows you to do is to change what programming is using that bandwidth based on the what the subscribers want to watch during the day. The white papers on the company's web site do a good job of describing what SDV is.

http://www.bigbandnet.com/

MSOs can use this technology to increase their service offerings by taking advantage of the fact that 80% of subscribers are only watching 20% of the available content at any one point in time.

How it is described above makes it sound like a compression or rate-shaping scheme and it it's not.

Maybe a simple way of putting it is that SDV does not increase capacity but allows the capacity to be more intelligently utilized based on the actual demands and activity of the subscribers.

Some HD content that is viewed on a very regular basis (like HD locals) would probably never be put on SDV as it would not provide a gain in bandwidth.
SDV seems like a lot of effort compared to the first step of going all digital (correct me if i'm wrong) each analog channel that is removed should provide enought bandwidth for two HD channels or six SD-Digital Channels (Assuming QAM256 at 38.78 Mbit/s)? TW in Los Angeles has about 80 Analog channels, so simply changing all the analogs to digital would free up at least 50-60 6 MHz slots? wouldnt this allow for over a 100 HD channels? or am i living in some kind of fantasy land?

twelvepbrs

02-06-07, 05:45 PM

SDV seems like a lot of effort compared to the first step of going all digital (correct me if i'm wrong) each analog channel that is removed should provide enought bandwidth for two HD channels or six SD-Digital Channels (Assuming QAM256 at 38.78 Mbit/s)? TW in Los Angeles has about 80 Analog channels, so simply changing all the analogs to digital would free up at least 50-60 6 MHz slots? wouldnt this allow for over a 100 HD channels? or am i living in some kind of fantasy land? Obviously you'd need some kind of box to keep using that beat tv in your garage, but i have to figure that a mass produced digital tuner/mpeg-2 decoder (with no guide, just basically a dumb box to change channels, decode digital, and output over composite or coax) shouldn't cost more than 40 bones, and I would hope that cable co's would subsidize it since they would get back all that bandwidth taken up by the analogs

bfoster

02-06-07, 06:04 PM

Any particular one channel with 256 QAM can only support two HD streams simultaneously. SDV does not change that, what SDV allows you to do is to change what programming is using that bandwidth based on the what the subscribers want to watch during the day. The white papers on the company's web site do a good job of describing what SDV is.

http://www.bigbandnet.com/

MSOs can use this technology to increase their service offerings by taking advantage of the fact that 80% of subscribers are only watching 20% of the available content at any one point in time.

How it is described above makes it sound like a compression or rate-shaping scheme and it it's not.

Maybe a simple way of putting it is that SDV does not increase capacity but allows the capacity to be more intelligently utilized based on the actual demands and activity of the subscribers.

Some HD content that is viewed on a very regular basis (like HD locals) would probably never be put on SDV as it would not provide a gain in bandwidth.

I wasn't trying to explain it, just answer the question! :)

The 80/20 numbers give the theoritical capability of 10-14 per QAM stream. They do this by segmenting the QAMs by node/service area and of course by sending the stream only when requested. :)

bfoster

02-06-07, 06:06 PM

SDV seems like a lot of effort compared to the first step of going all digital (correct me if i'm wrong) each analog channel that is removed should provide enought bandwidth for two HD channels or six SD-Digital Channels (Assuming QAM256 at 38.78 Mbit/s)? TW in Los Angeles has about 80 Analog channels, so simply changing all the analogs to digital would free up at least 50-60 6 MHz slots? wouldnt this allow for over a 100 HD channels? or am i living in some kind of fantasy land?

Not forcing set tops on customers is a competitive advantage over DBS. It would also be VERY expensive for someone to put boxes on 100% of the cabled sets out there!

twelvepbrs

02-06-07, 06:16 PM

Not forcing set tops on customers is a competitive advantage over DBS. It would also be VERY expensive for someone to put boxes on 100% of the cabled sets out there!
I'm sure there are exceptions, but i dont think many people would be bothered by a STB if it was free (leased for $0/month, not to keep!), i'm not refering to the fancy boxes that the cable co's have right now with guides, vod, etc..., just a box that can do a scan to pickup the unencrypted qam channels (assuming all the analogs become standard def digital), and then let you tune to them, i dont think such a box exists (although i'm sure some nerd could piece one together), this would obviously cost money, but would it cost more or less than converting to SDV? and also would it save more or less bandwidth than converting to SDV? I don't know, but it's another option

bfoster

02-06-07, 06:38 PM

COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE! Once you put a box on a set there is nothing stopping them from going to DBS. They give boxes away every day!

keenan

02-06-07, 06:58 PM

COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE! Once you put a box on a set there is nothing stopping them from going to DBS. They give boxes away every day!
Indeed, no boxes is a HUGE selling point, people HATE those boxes.

twelvepbrs

02-06-07, 07:08 PM

COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE! Once you put a box on a set there is nothing stopping them from going to DBS. They give boxes away every day!
DBS requires a dish, and a lengthy contract, and i believe the cheapest DBS package is more expensive than basic cable (not sure though, probably depends on your provider), also dont forget that cable offers highspeed internet (sometimes bundled with CATV for a discount), but i believe HSI options with DBS are limited to DSL (which is a roll of the dice on how good the copper is to your ILEC); all of cable's competitors (DBS, FiosTV, etc..) already require a STB, so requiring a free STB shouldn't be a huge deal (as long as the STB is simple and inexpensive enough) compared to the huge amount of bandwidth that could be saved for additional content which would keep/lure customers
now of course the cable co's would have to actually contract for that content, which i know TW has sucked at lately (NFL, MLB EI, etc...)

bfoster

02-06-07, 07:26 PM

DBS requires a dish, and a lengthy contract, and i believe the cheapest DBS package is more expensive than basic cable (not sure though, probably depends on your provider), also dont forget that cable offers highspeed internet (sometimes bundled with CATV for a discount), but i believe HSI options with DBS are limited to DSL (which is a roll of the dice on how good the copper is to your ILEC); all of cable's competitors (DBS, FiosTV, etc..) already require a STB, so requiring a free STB shouldn't be a huge deal (as long as the STB is simple and inexpensive enough) compared to the huge amount of bandwidth that could be saved for additional content which would keep/lure customers
now of course the cable co's would have to actually contract for that content, which i know TW has sucked at lately (NFL, MLB EI, etc...)

I'm sorry you don't get it. :rolleyes:

(Hint, I'm not talking about AVSers) :D

twelvepbrs

02-06-07, 07:44 PM

I'm sorry you don't get it. :rolleyes:

(Hint, I'm not talking about AVSers) :D
i think i get it, you're talking about joe six pack, who opens the letter from TW forcing him to have a box and says "Those m(#$^%(#%&%&*holes" but if it's free, and low-profile enough, who cares about it when compared to other options (except for maybe the having yet another remote control issue), is JSP going to switch to D* because of having a box forced upon him? that'd be pretty dumb considering the only way to avoid a box all together (except for a fancy expensive tv) is to use rabbit ears and watch some nice snowy ntsc broadcast (which should disappear in a couple years)

keenan

02-06-07, 07:59 PM

And the about 50% of all current cable customers who still only have analog cable...

bfoster

02-06-07, 08:03 PM

i think i get it, you're talking about joe six pack, who opens the letter from TW forcing him to have a box and says "Those m(#$^%(#%&%&*holes" but if it's free, and low-profile enough, who cares about it when compared to other options (except for maybe the having yet another remote control issue), is JSP going to switch to D* because of having a box forced upon him? that'd be pretty dumb considering the only way to avoid a box all together (except for a fancy expensive tv) is to use rabbit ears and watch some nice snowy ntsc broadcast (which should disappear in a couple years)

I'm still sorry you don't get, but I will try again. :D

IT KEEPS THEM FROM SWITCHING PROVIDERS NOW!

Cable comes out of the wall goes into the TV. PIP works, TV in bedroom works, VCR works...no problems.... Hell they may even be paying more than DBS for service, but they are happy!

Once you FORCE that box on the customer OTHER THINGS come into play. DBS is 1.99 cheaper, or FIOS has 10 more channels, things they overlooked when all they had was a wire coming out of the wall!

Well if I gotta have a box anyways.......

bfoster

02-06-07, 08:04 PM

And the about 50% of all current cable customers who still only have analog cable...

Thanks for the help... ;)

twelvepbrs

02-06-07, 09:10 PM

And the about 50% of all current cable customers who still only have analog cable...
From the greedy cable company point of view, i'd say that in a lot of cases these people arent providing that much revenue (just a hunch), but what will happen when TV goes all digital? Are the cable co's going to convert the digital feed to analog to send out to the few remaining customers who think it's too much trouble to sit a deck of cards on top of their tv (wishful thinking about the size of a barebones, QAM64/256 only tuner, should be possible considering the size of TV Tuner cards), not sure, if i knew where cable co's make most of their profit i'd have more ammunition, i'm just saying i it'd be about as difficult as switching to SDV, just depends where you want the hassle to be, SDV will require lots of work on the infrastructure, while switching the analogs to digital would require handing out lots of boxes (to be clear i'm advocating a barebones box that just tunes unencrypted QAM, which is where cable would put the digital versions of previous analog channels) but i have a feeling it would net a lot more extra bandwidth

slowbiscuit

02-06-07, 10:11 PM

I'm still on analog expanded basic (with OTA and QAM HD) for a reason - I ain't paying to rent no damn power-sucking STBs from Comcast. The bill is high enough already.

twelvepbrs

02-07-07, 12:08 AM

I'm still on analog expanded basic (with OTA and QAM HD) for a reason - I ain't paying to rent no damn power-sucking STBs from Comcast. The bill is high enough already.
First off, it sounds like you have a TV with a built in ATSC/QAM tuner, i think the bigger issue is people with tv's that can only tune NTSC

Is anyone actually reading what i've said so far? I'm not advocating the huge, power hungry, guide capable wastes of space that cable co's are handing out right now, i'm talking about making a little bare-bones box (maybe the size of a three-pack DVD set) that just tunes unencrypted qam, and is provided FOR FREE by the cable company because they want to get back all the bandwidth taken up by 80 analog channels; i think we'll have to agree to disagree, i can only hope that the meetings by the cable cos are this heated when they weigh their options for upgrading their systems

bicker1

02-07-07, 05:15 AM

SDV seems like a lot of effort compared to the first step of going all digital (correct me if i'm wrong)Well, like anything software driven, once the software is written, it's easy! Regardless, "going all digital" would harm cable operators, who could otherwise maintain a significant portion of the customer-base with the promise that lifeline service can continue to be used by folks with 20 year old televisions, sprinkled all of their house.

I'm sure there are exceptions, but i dont think many people would be bothered by a STB if it was free (leased for $0/month, not to keep!)You're mistaken.

Also, there is no such thing as "free" -- it would be "included" i.e., included in the basic fee.

From the greedy cable company point of view, i'd say that in a lot of cases these people arent providing that much revenue (just a hunch)Almost surely wrong. You're really hitting on something that, while perhaps inconceivable to you, is a fundamental issue. Please understand that you're mistaken. Cable operators offering analog service after 2009 will be a major competitive advantage for them, representing a large amount of revenue.

optivity

02-07-07, 07:24 AM

bfoster

02-07-07, 07:50 AM

If eveything is on-demand... what is the response for channel-surfers? Click, click, click... or, click... wait, click... wait, click... wait?

If you are using the term 'on-demand' in the SDV sense, I don't imagine it will be any worse than the current surfing of digital channels. Using a cable modem, how long does it take for a web page to start loading once you click the link?

bfoster

02-07-07, 08:14 AM

From the greedy cable company point of view, i'd say that in a lot of cases these people arent providing that much revenue (just a hunch),

HALF of their customers aren't providing that much revenue? :rolleyes:

slowbiscuit

02-07-07, 09:51 AM

First off, it sounds like you have a TV with a built in ATSC/QAM tuner, i think the bigger issue is people with tv's that can only tune NTSC

Is anyone actually reading what i've said so far? I'm not advocating the huge, power hungry, guide capable wastes of space that cable co's are handing out right now, i'm talking about making a little bare-bones box (maybe the size of a three-pack DVD set) that just tunes unencrypted qam, and is provided FOR FREE by the cable company because they want to get back all the bandwidth taken up by 80 analog channels; i think we'll have to agree to disagree, i can only hope that the meetings by the cable cos are this heated when they weigh their options for upgrading their systemsI have ONE TV that can tune HD, and I'm not spending upwards of $2k to replace the other three (yet).

I hear what you're saying loud and clear, but I don't think Comcast is going to give anyone anything for free, even if it allows them to unload analog. No, what I think will happen is that they'll jack up the cost of expanded basic to equal what digital basic + a couple extra STB rentals would cost, thereby 'encouraging' J6P to get digital because it's a 'good deal'. Yep, that's what I think will happen - they're just too greedy to subsidize production and distribution of STBs no matter how cheap they are.

It's already starting to happen in the ATL, btw. The recent increase has finally jacked expanded basic up to the cost of digital starter (with one STB), so there's little reason not to switch for one TV at least. Except for the damn STB, that is.

bplewis24

02-07-07, 11:57 AM

No, what I think will happen is that they'll jack up the cost of expanded basic to equal what digital basic + a couple extra STB rentals would cost, thereby 'encouraging' J6P to get digital because it's a 'good deal'. Yep, that's what I think will happen.

It's been happening in some parts of California already. I'm one of them, and I watched the process start slowly and very inconspicuously many years ago.

Brandon

twelvepbrs

02-07-07, 12:44 PM

I have ONE TV that can tune HD, and I'm not spending upwards of $2k to replace the other three (yet).

I hear what you're saying loud and clear, but I don't think Comcast is going to give anyone anything for free, even if it allows them to unload analog. No, what I think will happen is that they'll jack up the cost of expanded basic to equal what digital basic + a couple extra STB rentals would cost, thereby 'encouraging' J6P to get digital because it's a 'good deal'. Yep, that's what I think will happen - they're just too greedy to subsidize production and distribution of STBs no matter how cheap they are.

It's already starting to happen in the ATL, btw. The recent increase has finally jacked expanded basic up to the cost of digital starter (with one STB), so there's little reason not to switch for one TV at least. Except for the damn STB, that is.
you can get a tuner for clear qam for 50 bux (X3 is just a tad under $2k :rolleyes: ) I dont really understand the irrational fear/hatred of "The Box" itself, I wasn't saying what I thought the cable companies would do, I was offering my idea for an alternative to going to SDV that would n't require large scale infrastructure changes, just a bunch more boxes, and i'm almost positive would net a lot more bandwidth, but here in LA, i really don't believe it's a bandwidth problem, i just think that TW isnt interested in expanding their content when it actually involves substantial contract negotiations, they are just cheap and lazy

bfoster

02-07-07, 12:58 PM

twelvepbrs

02-07-07, 01:42 PM

The fear or hatred for 'The Box' is far from irrational, it is FACT! HALF of TODAY'S cable customers don't have one. Why? Because they don't want one, simple as that. As long as people have that choice they will stay with cable, period. Force a box on them and a certain percentage will switch to DBS or FIOS, another FACT!

SDV is not a large scale infrastructure change. Any system that currently offers VOD probably aready has most of it in place.

Yes, eliminating analog would increase available bandwidth, but it would be a bad business decision.
any switch to DBS or FIOS will also require a box, and to keep analog in 2009, they will need to modify the headend, to convert all the digital channels to analog

bfoster

02-07-07, 01:57 PM

any switch to DBS or FIOS will also require a box,

Well Duh! :rolleyes: THAT'S WHY NOT FORCING A BOX ON THEM NOW WILL KEEP THEM CABLE AS CUSTOMERS!

and to keep analog in 2009, they will need to modify the headend, to convert all the digital channels to analog

Very simple. Swap one (1) rack unit device for another, per OTA channel.

twelvepbrs

02-07-07, 02:04 PM

Well Duh! :rolleyes: THAT'S WHY NOT FORCING A BOX ON THEM NOW WILL KEEP THEM CABLE AS CUSTOMERS!

Maybe, but there's added hassle to cancel cable, and sign up for new service, get it installed, and possibly locked into a contract, the fact that cable is month to month is a big plus imho (In My Horrible Opinion)

bfoster

02-07-07, 02:07 PM

Maybe, but there's added hassle to cancel cable, and sign up for new service, get it installed, and possibly locked into a contract, the fact that cable is month to month is a big plus imho (In My Horrible Opinion)

You just don't want to get it...........

Good Bye. :)

slowbiscuit

02-07-07, 04:16 PM

you can get a tuner for clear qam for 50 bux (X3 is just a tad under $2k :rolleyes: ) I dont really understand the irrational fear/hatred of "The Box" itself, I wasn't saying what I thought the cable companies would do, I was offering my idea for an alternative to going to SDV that would n't require large scale infrastructure changes, just a bunch more boxes, and i'm almost positive would net a lot more bandwidth, but here in LA, i really don't believe it's a bandwidth problem, i just think that TW isnt interested in expanding their content when it actually involves substantial contract negotiations, they are just cheap and lazyI didn't say I wanted to get QAM tuners to keep using my old TV's, I said I would have to spend that money to convert to HD. Big difference, but it doesn't matter.

Here's the reasons why the cableco's STB can suck it in my house (yes, I've tried them):

- slow channel changing compared to analog tuners

- ad-laden TV guide so cableco can make more money off a box that I RENT

- yet another remote that I don't need (yeah I know, an all-in-one fixes this, but still)

- I have ReplayTV DVR's and don't want to use an IR blaster to tune the STB (right now with straight analog cable feeds I can watch one show and record another with a splitter on one TV, but if I was forced to use an STB I wouldn't be able to). Plus anyone could walk up and screw up a record by changing the channel on the STB without realizing a record was going. Yeah I know the answer to that, ditch the Replay and rent the cableco's buggy dual-tuner DVR. No thanks.

- bulky and ugly - takes up a shelf that I don't have, or I have to put it on its side next to the TV (ugh)

- did I mention they suck power?

- zzzzz

michaelk

02-07-07, 04:50 PM

Any chance you'd mention the 3 or 4 people?

dt_dc - (who posts very often here and TC) and JDguy both appear to be intricately involved in the industry related to cablecards. Their knowledge of all the specs and also the politics seems to indicate that they deal with cablecard issues for a living. Neither seems to volunteer who they work for so likley they still are employed by a cable labs or a cable compnay or a box maker. JDguy has said something like he has worked both sides of the fence (meaning for cable and for the CE companies) but would rather not say where or who he works for now. In fact I basically assume that if dt_dc doesnt correct me then I must be right- LOL. I wonder if he wrote half the specs himself.

Also there are at least 2 guys that seem to be cable head end engineers but off the top of my head I cant recall their names. (maybe Rogrigo is one- forgive me if I'm totally off) THe 2 of them can pretty much describe the motorolla cablecard systems any way you want or need and will at times check the manuals or release notes and post specifics.

beyond those 4, there seems to be quite a few people trying to learn and understand as best they can. (Some just to argue it seems but a bunch want just to understand what the reality is)

twelvepbrs

02-07-07, 04:54 PM

I didn't say I wanted to get QAM tuners to keep using my old TV's, I said I would have to spend that money to convert to HD. Big difference, but it doesn't matter.

Here's the reasons why the cableco's STB can suck it in my house (yes, I've tried them):

- slow channel changing compared to analog tuners

- ad-laden TV guide so cableco can make more money off a box that I RENT

- yet another remote that I don't need (yeah I know, an all-in-one fixes this, but still)

- I have ReplayTV DVR's and don't want to use an IR blaster to tune the STB (right now with straight analog cable feeds I can watch one show and record another with a splitter on one TV, but if I was forced to use an STB I wouldn't be able to). Plus anyone could walk up and screw up a record by changing the channel on the STB without realizing a record was going. Yeah I know the answer to that, ditch the Replay and rent the cableco's buggy dual-tuner DVR. No thanks.

- bulky and ugly - takes up a shelf that I don't have, or I have to put it on its side next to the TV (ugh)

- did I mention they suck power?

- zzzzz
you guys still arent listening, a barebones qam tuner with analog output wouldn't need to be larger than a 3-pack dvd box, and since it's just a tuner with no EPG, there's no adds, and i was saying if they gave it away for free with their basic cable service, they'd have a ton of extra bandwidth, more than enough to cary EVERY HD channel available, if they offered every HD channel out there, i'm sure several users (HD-nuts) would switch to cable; I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT USING THE BOXES THEY HAND OUT AND CHARGE FOR RIGHT NOW!!!!!

bfoster

02-07-07, 06:08 PM

you guys still arent listening, a barebones qam tuner with analog output wouldn't need to be larger than a 3-pack dvd box, and since it's just a tuner with no EPG, there's no adds, and i was saying if they gave it away for free with their basic cable service, they'd have a ton of extra bandwidth, more than enough to cary EVERY HD channel available, if they offered every HD channel out there, i'm sure several users (HD-nuts) would switch to cable; I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT USING THE BOXES THEY HAND OUT AND CHARGE FOR RIGHT NOW!!!!!

No, you aren't listening, but I've got time so I will try one more time.

Bear with me here.

Standard cable costs $50.

Cable company has 100 customers. 50 of them DO NOT WANT A CABLE BOX of any kind. It messes up their PiP.

50 of them have digital cable with boxes. Of these 50, 5 of them have HDTVs. HD service is $10 for 20 channels.

They are collecting $5050 per month.

They follow your advice and force free digital cable boxes on all.

Twenty of the ex-no box customers switch to DBS because they got free install and service is only $45 and they gotta have a damn box anyways. :rolleyes:

Cable Company launches 20 more HD channels and gains 5 new HD customers and raises the HD rate to $15.

Now they are collecting $4400 per month.

Do you see any sense in this?

Now let's do it my way.

Launch SDV.

Add 20 more HD channels. Get 5 new HD customers and raise HD rate to $15.

Now they collect $5400 per month.

Hmmm 5400 or 4400...... (Add many zeros)

twelvepbrs

02-07-07, 06:21 PM

No, you aren't listening, but I've got time so I will try one more time.

Bear with me here.

Standard cable costs $50.

Cable company has 100 customers. 50 of them DO NOT WANT A CABLE BOX of any kind. It messes up their PiP.

50 of them have digital cable with boxes. Of these 50, 5 of them have HDTVs. HD service is $10 for 20 channels.

They are collecting $5050 per month.

They follow your advice and force free digital cable boxes on all.

Twenty of the ex-no box customers switch to DBS because they got free install and service is only $45 and they gotta have a damn box anyways. :rolleyes:

Cable Company launches 20 more HD channels and gains 5 new HD customers and raises the HD rate to $15.

Now they are collecting $4400 per month.

Do you see any sense in this?

Now let's do it my way.

Launch SDV.

Add 20 more HD channels. Get 5 new HD customers and raise HD rate to $15.

Now they collect $5400 per month.

Hmmm 5400 or 4400...... (Add many zeros)
:::puts fingers in ears::: BLAH BLAH BLAH...I CAN'T HEAR YOU:::
but seriously, it's all moot, since there's no way TW would ever close on negotiations for 5 new HD channels; at least not in my lifetime

optivity

02-07-07, 06:25 PM

"Congress voted... to set the official date for the analog spectrum handover at Feb. 17, 2009. By then, analog television transmissions in America should be history. The DTV transition will be over...

The package includes up to $1.5 billion for a government subsidy program designed to help families in need purchase digital-to-analog set-top converter boxes.

Qualifying households will receive up to two $40 coupons to use toward purchase of converter boxes. Estimates are the viewers receiving a subsidy will have to pay about $20 out of pocket toward the cost of a converter box.

The Feb. 17, 2009, shutoff date, a compromise between the House and Senate, was purely political. It was designed to appease viewers, coming after the Super Bowl, one of the year’s major TV viewing events, and before the “March Madness” basketball tournaments.

Dropped from the final bill was a provision that would have allowed the cable television industry to downconvert all high-definition digital signals to standard definition for viewing by analog cable customers.

This could have a huge impact since 39 million cable subscribers, the vast majority, are still on analog cable systems. Unless some interim action is taken, many of those subscribers may have to upgrade to more expensive digital cable service in order to receive broadcast programming from local stations.

Also omitted from the legislation was any mention of two controversial broadcast issues: multichannel must carry and the broadcast flag copy protection system."

source: Broadcast Engineering Analog TV shutoff date set (http://broadcastengineering.com/news/Analog-tv-set-20060206/)

twelvepbrs

02-07-07, 06:34 PM

bfoster

02-07-07, 06:34 PM

twelvepbrs

02-07-07, 06:46 PM

There is nothing in the law that would prevent a cable operator and a broadcaster from agreeing, amongst themselves, to provide both the full rez digital signal AND a downconverted analog one. The cable lobby was trying to get blanket permission to allow them to carry only the analog.
...and i still use leaded gas, because having a catalytic converter on my car just takes up too much power and space

bicker1

02-08-07, 06:51 AM

No. You're 100% wrong, twelvepbrs. It's nothing like that at all.

optivity

02-08-07, 07:07 AM

...and this is why i was mentioning dropping analog, i guess we'll see, two years is a long timeI know... there is still plenty of time to change and extend the TV Analog Shutoff Date beyond 2/18/09. :rolleyes: There is nothing in the law that would prevent a cable operator and a broadcaster from agreeing, amongst themselves, to provide both the full rez digital signal AND a downconverted analog one. The cable lobby was trying to get blanket permission to allow them to carry only the analog."Dropped from the final bill was a provision that would have allowed the cable television industry to downconvert all high-definition digital signals to standard definition for viewing by analog cable customers."

I don't see how this would be possible after the switch to digital television broadcast occurs.

bfoster

02-08-07, 07:49 AM

"Dropped from the final bill was a provision that would have allowed the cable television industry to downconvert all high-definition digital signals to standard definition for viewing by analog cable customers."

I don't see how this would be possible after the switch to digital television broadcast occurs.

Simple. The provision was to allow cable to do it. Now that that failed they will have to get permission from the broadcaster to do it.

bicker1

02-08-07, 06:30 PM

I know... there is still plenty of time to change and extend the TV Analog Shutoff Date beyond 2/18/09. :rolleyes: "Dropped from the final bill was a provision that would have allowed the cable television industry to downconvert all high-definition digital signals to standard definition for viewing by analog cable customers."

I don't see how this would be possible after the switch to digital television broadcast occurs.I think too many people are reading to much into what you've highlighted in bold. They dropped a provision from a bill -- that doesn't mean that the law of the land is the exact opposite of that provision.

twelvepbrs

02-08-07, 07:28 PM

Simple. The provision was to allow cable to do it. Now that that failed they will have to get permission from the broadcaster to do it.
I'm not trying to jump back in the argument, but i could definitely see some friction from the broadcasters, when the cable co's ask to be able to D2A their content

pixelswim

02-09-07, 09:16 AM

dt_dc - (who posts very often here and TC) and JDguy both appear to be intricately involved in the industry related to cablecards. Their knowledge of all the specs and also the politics seems to indicate that they deal with cablecard issues for a living. Neither seems to volunteer who they work for so likley they still are employed by a cable labs or a cable compnay or a box maker. JDguy has said something like he has worked both sides of the fence (meaning for cable and for the CE companies) but would rather not say where or who he works for now. In fact I basically assume that if dt_dc doesnt correct me then I must be right- LOL. I wonder if he wrote half the specs himself.

Also there are at least 2 guys that seem to be cable head end engineers but off the top of my head I cant recall their names. (maybe Rogrigo is one- forgive me if I'm totally off) THe 2 of them can pretty much describe the motorolla cablecard systems any way you want or need and will at times check the manuals or release notes and post specifics.

beyond those 4, there seems to be quite a few people trying to learn and understand as best they can. (Some just to argue it seems but a bunch want just to understand what the reality is)

Michaelk, Thanks! Sorry I took so long to see your reply, I've been over in the Cablecard Problem thread on eCoustics. I have barely started reviewing the tivo-s3 thread and this info will help me while looking at that thread.

So far, it seems like these 3 threads (the one we are in here on avs, the eCoustics one where "cableguy" hangs out and the tivo community one) are the most directed-to-cablecard discussions to be found.

Being the latest little warrior ant walking the valley of cablecard, I'm still taking notes, gathering info and hoping to write up my little road-map of practical troubleshooting. I took a practice shot on part-one while chatting with a guy over in the eCoustics hd reception subforum.

I'm probably just the latest little customer who will go down in flames and eventually give up but I'm going to make a lot of chatter while I'm at it!

--pixel
ps. I'm still getting sidetracked by my latest problem where my sammy comes on with sound but no picture (which makes cablecard installation a bit more difficult :) ) but the sammy serviceman said this was due to the SA8300HD-DVR that TWC has me using while cablecard doesn't work -- he says there are incompatibilities between that box and the sammy (supposedly the hdmi signal from the STB isn't sensed properly by the signal-source sensor in the sammy and gets the sammy into this state where it only has sound, not picture. I hate intermittent problems, they are so hard to make progress with.)

pixelswim

02-10-07, 05:57 PM

July 1 2007 is another big milestone for the Cablecard:

FCC denies Comcast request; "integration ban" coming in Julyl (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070111-8599.htm)

there are several new stb coming to market that use cablecards, so I think the card will be around for a while

Hey Mark, I noticed this over at Scientific Atlanta:

http://www.sciatl.com/newscenter/index.htm

Release Date: January 8, 2007 CES/January 8-11, 2006
Las Vegas, Nevada
North Hall, Upper Level, Room N227
Las Vegas Convention Center

Scientific Atlanta Leads Industry in Support of CableCARD Separable Security Initiatives
Next-Generation Solutions on the Forefront of Development to Meet FCC Demands

Las Vegas, Nev. - CES 2007 – Jan. 8, 2007 – Scientific Atlanta, a Cisco company, has the technology stage set for “707,” the July 1,2007, Federal Communications Commission’s deadline for separable security modules. At CES 2007, the company is demonstrating products that will help enable cable operators to comply with the FCC regulations, including its Multi-Stream CableCARD™ and a range of set-tops1, from standard-definition digital-only to dual-tuner high-definition (HD) digital video recorders (DVRs), as well as software solutions for both systems and clients. Scientific Atlanta was the first company to receive CableLabs® qualification for the Multi-Stream CableCARD (M-Card™), as announced in April 2006, and continues to lead industry efforts by testing and working with customers.

The removable security cards handle conditional access to and the encryption of premium cable channels. Cable operators provide separable security modules so that content can be adequately protected.

“Scientific Atlanta is committed to providing the M-Card, network and set-top solutions needed by cable operators for a successful separable security transition,” said Michael Harney, president of Subscriber Network Systems, Scientific Atlanta. “Our CableLabs-qualified M-Card and latest line of CableCARD-enabled set-tops provide the features and security that enable our customers to deliver protected advanced digital cable services.”

Features of the M-Card:

Supports decryption of premium services
Supports single stream and multistream hosts
Supported by Scientific Atlanta’s Digital Network Control System
Simultaneously decrypts up to six video streams
Qualified by CableLabs
1 CableCARD enabled set-tops currently shipping for testing include: The 8300C™, 8300HDC™, 8240C™, 8240HDC™, 4250C™, 4250HDC™, 4240C™ and 4240HDC™

And of course you can see pictures of new STBs with CableCARD slots in the back.
(Sorry if this is old news, I just hadn't noticed it over at the SCIATL website.)

pixelswim

02-27-07, 05:59 PM

Yes, pixelswim (who did NOT give up, too stubborn and easily entertained by tech that won't work...) has emerged with a working CableCARD system lo these 3 months!

"Pixel, What finally made it work?"

"Well, the guys gave in to defeat after 3 hours and called it quits, promising to come back. But they left the cablecard in the TV. Overnight the CC fairys waved their wands and commanded the little EMMs and ECMs to dance among the circuits, and... and..."

Yes, father TIME is indeed another factor to be considered in the guide to a successful application of FCC maple syrup to the CableCoPancake.

Leave that cablecard in and those DHCP servers will someday execute their TTLs and the packet-soup that the HeadEnd thought was flowing will actually eventually flow. We're talking several days of one happy pixelswim here, sitting around comparing the PQ of the CC vs. the SA8300 now that both are working.

Now that that is over I can settle back and think about whether saving $75/yr is worth not having the nifty little interactive channel guide. Of course now I'll have to learn all the tricks of maintaining the cablecard which has it's own adventures, so see ya soon with more tales from the CP Auth trails --pixelswim

markrubin

02-27-07, 06:20 PM

Good to see you did not give up pixelswim

with Tivo 3 and other new cable boxes [hopefully] coming to market, the CableCard should be around for quite some time

My Comcast now will give a hit to the CC without having to speak to customer service; just by using the automated phone system:

so far my 4 cards have been working OK for several months- only needing a hit every few weeks

pixelswim

02-28-07, 06:48 AM

I had my first time the other day where the scrambled channels would not show up but I knew, in my case, to be suspicious of the host clock (the tv clock in my case.) I went to the clock section of the setup menu where I found that the tv clock had somehow made itself off by an hour. I switched it to manual mode, corrected the time, reset the clock, switched it back to auto mode and proceeded to the (I have a Scientific Atlanta CC) SA Cablecard auth screen where where the card was "waiting for time." A long time later it was "waiting for EUT." A long time after that it began descrambling channels again and everything was fixed.

That was my first instance of needing to "maintain" the cablecard. I don't know why the samsung got off by an hour. It's not time for the new DST change yet. I didn't check whether my cablecard tech entered the correct timezone although I think I remember him selecting a highlighted picture of the east coast where I am.

I don't know if centralNC TWC has an automated call-in line for cablecard but it will be worth finding out I suspect. Mark, beyond not getting one or more scrambled channel, are there any other symptoms or other setup fields you check that precipitate you calling your automated line?

markrubin

02-28-07, 10:30 AM

Mark, beyond not getting one or more scrambled channel, are there any other symptoms or other setup fields you check that precipitate you calling your automated line?

No: there is really nothing else you need to do under normal circumstances

The only other problem I encountered was large signal level changes: there has been a lot of road construction in my town and Comcast underground cables (which are not buried deep enough) get disturbed frequently: temporary repairs cause outages and signal level changes of +/- 15 db! I noticed my cable signal had changed by +15 db and this easily overloads CC equipped sets: I had to remove distribution amps/add attenuators until the proper levels were restored

twelvepbrs

02-28-07, 05:57 PM

twelvepbrs

02-28-07, 06:00 PM

michaelk

02-28-07, 10:18 PM

does anyone have an idea when a simple HD-STB that accepts cable card will be released? all i'm aware of are the Sony DHG-250/500 DVRS, id really like to get just an HDSTB that can record to firewire, and i'd hope that the integration ban would start to bring these to market at some point this year

I'm not sure anytime soon. Typically you can rent such a box from cable for 5 or 6 bucks and you typically have to pay a couple dollars for a cablecard per month- so the premium is like $3-5 a month to rent a cablebox instead of just the card . So how many people are going to be looking to buy a box instead of paying $3 more a month to rent it with all the pains that you can get from cablecards? I'd guess such a box would cost over 100 bucks so the pay back would be 2-3 years and for that you cant get ppv, vod, or switched video if it comes along.

From what i read some of the OTA converter boxes in the sub 100 dollar range might include QAM but i haven't seen anything about a cablecard being included in anything.

michaelk

02-28-07, 10:22 PM

I'm surprised some of the largest TV advertisers (McD's, Coca-Cola, Nike, etc...) aren't chipping in to subsidize digital converters for people who don't want to pay for them, i'm sure most of these companies would like to still have their hours per day of advertising in US living rooms

how would that help them? If commericals only reach 85% of the eyeballs come 2009 then the advertising rates will drop to 85% of current. They'll just take the 15% discount and but more time with it and reach the same number of eyeballs.

The 15% without cable or sat probably has a higher proportion of poor folk so advertisers probably dont care to advertise to them so much anyway.

twelvepbrs

02-28-07, 10:56 PM

I'm not sure anytime soon. Typically you can rent such a box from cable for 5 or 6 bucks and you typically have to pay a couple dollars for a cablecard per month- so the premium is like $3-5 a month to rent a cablebox instead of just the card . So how many people are going to be looking to buy a box instead of paying $3 more a month to rent it with all the pains that you can get from cablecards? I'd guess such a box would cost over 100 bucks so the pay back would be 2-3 years and for that you cant get ppv, vod, or switched video if it comes along.

From what i read some of the OTA converter boxes in the sub 100 dollar range might include QAM but i haven't seen anything about a cablecard being included in anything.
if you get an HDDVR from a cable company it runs $15/month (at least for me with TW in LA), sony makes a HDDVR with either a 250 or 500 GB HD, and it takes a cablecard, but it's guide is through TVGOS, which is pretty chitty, if someone else made a similar unit or if sony updated them to have a better EPG, with a better way to get the EPG data (currently it's datacast on PBS analog channels), i'd snatch one up if it would pay for itself in two yearsish (so at 15/month that means it has to cost around $300-$400)

twelvepbrs

03-01-07, 02:38 AM

anyone know what data the cable co's send to a cablecard to that control how the channels map? is this the PSIP data? my digital channels dissappeared for a while tonight, then when they came back one of the channels was gone, i mean i can't even tune to it, it's still there in clear-qam, but the input that has the cablecard, doesn't even show the channel there, this is very frustrating because it is a broadcast channel (CBS sister station KCAL-9 in Los Angeles), when i initially got my cablecard the channel would show me a screen stating that i needed a digital STB, after raising a stink with all the TW people i could contact about how this is tantamount to encryption, the problem was fixed, and i could tune the channel, but now it looks like it's just dissappeard completely....any ideas?

PhillyC

03-01-07, 04:36 PM

Have them hit your card. The provisioning gets fouled up every so often.

twelvepbrs

03-01-07, 04:58 PM

Have them hit your card. The provisioning gets fouled up every so often.
they did and it didnt work, i'd believe that was the culprit if it wasnt the same channel i had to fight with them about a couple weeks ago, the channel still comes in the clear (116-4), but it doesnt map as a virtual channel through the cablecard (409) as of last night, it's extra frustrating considering i could get it OTA, and i'm just waiting for a cable csr to tell me i can receive it OTA, at which point i will quickly say something like "Oh, i can get it through an antenna? hey i can get several channels through an antenna, maybe i just shouldn't even have cable in the first place!"

Contsi

03-01-07, 05:05 PM

they did and it didnt work, i'd believe that was the culprit if it wasnt the same channel i had to fight with them about a couple weeks ago, the channel still comes in the clear (116-4), but it doesnt map as a virtual channel through the cablecard (409) as of last night, it's extra frustrating considering i could get it OTA, and i'm just waiting for a cable csr to tell me i can receive it OTA, at which point i will quickly say something like "Oh, i can get it through an antenna? hey i can get several channels through an antenna, maybe i just shouldn't even have cable in the first place!"

I have similar problem which I posted on local Boston Comcast here on AVS.
I was receiving at least 2 channels with direct connect from Comcast cable and as soon as got the cable card I lost them. I'm trying to fight to get them on CC but I don't think I'll win this one.

UxiSXRD

03-01-07, 05:19 PM

I've been good since my last update on 1/27, surprisingly enough. I never used PPV or VoD or anything like that so never really missed the box. My wife was bugging me about the clock though, though (doesn't appear the TV keeps time too well for some reason... falling behind pretty far regularly).

Another thing is I'm surprised Charter doesn't have the TV Guide channel out here. I know they do in the neighboring county... So there is literally no way to know what's going out here without checking the Internet. A bit... inconveniencing but I don't watch a whole lot of TV (other than the HD channels and there aren't enough of them for that to be an issue yet). ;)

Anyways, it's got me looking at the Sony DHG-HDD500 for it's TVGoS... it's certainly a pretty box and the DVR functions could come in mighty handy.

michaelk

03-01-07, 05:20 PM

if you get an HDDVR from a cable company it runs $15/month (at least for me with TW in LA), sony makes a HDDVR with either a 250 or 500 GB HD, and it takes a cablecard, but it's guide is through TVGOS, which is pretty chitty, if someone else made a similar unit or if sony updated them to have a better EPG, with a better way to get the EPG data (currently it's datacast on PBS analog channels), i'd snatch one up if it would pay for itself in two yearsish (so at 15/month that means it has to cost around $300-$400)

if you are talkign about a DVR that's not exacelty what I would call a "SIMPLE" box.

The dynamics of an HD DVR are differnt then an HD simple non dvr for sure.

But the outcome is similar. The manufacturing cost of HD DVR's is still quite high- If I recall this time last year directv was telling investors that the HD tivo they were then deploying was costing them 600 dollars and that was years old technology. So maybe right now they can be built for $400- the manufacturer is goign to want to make some profit.

Even if you can get it down to the 300-400 dollar range that gives you a 2 yearish payback it's still a big risk becasue in 12 months time your provider might have implemented switched video for a slew of HD channels that the unidirectional boxes of today can't handle. You still cant order PPV even though it's 15 year old technology.

(if somehow an agreeable standard comes along for a 2-way cable DVR- that's likelyt o add another 100 bucks or so to the cost).

Myself I bought a tivo series 3 as soon as they were released for basically the MSRP. I'm about to pick up a second for the current street price that's still 50-100% over your hoped for range. Some of us are stupid enough to take the risk- I'm a glutton for punishment- LOL.
(to tell you the truth my thinking of late is the price can't drop fast enough to offset the Switched video uncertainty- so I might as well buy it ASAP so I can get the most use out of it before my provider turns on switched video and makes the boxes obsolete)

Maybe in Jan 2009 there will be a 2-way standard that isn't offensive to the consumer electronics company's and the maturity of ATSC chips and dropping hardware costs in general make 3rd party DVR's a reality for the masses.

(I can dream- cant I?)

michaelk

03-01-07, 05:22 PM

twelvepbrs

03-01-07, 05:32 PM

PSIP is for broadcast and can be carried over QAM. But once you put in a cablecard it takes over and PSIP is ignored- per the cablecard specs.
so how does the cablecard know how to map the real channels to virtual channels? does it use the same data that is sent to time-warner's set-top-boxes if it's not using PSIP? also as of the last few months the virtual channel mapping using PSIP has been disabled for my area with TW in LA, last fall the clear-QAM HD channels mapped correctly, but since sometime in january, they dont map at all and i had to hunt them down

PhillyC

03-01-07, 06:40 PM

The cablecard is controlled by the cable headend and can be mapped any way they choose. That's why you can't scan for cable channels after the card is inserted.

PhillyC

03-01-07, 06:44 PM

they did and it didnt work, i'd believe that was the culprit if it wasnt the same channel i had to fight with them about a couple weeks ago, the channel still comes in the clear (116-4), but it doesnt map as a virtual channel through the cablecard (409) as of last night, it's extra frustrating considering i could get it OTA, and i'm just waiting for a cable csr to tell me i can receive it OTA, at which point i will quickly say something like "Oh, i can get it through an antenna? hey i can get several channels through an antenna, maybe i just shouldn't even have cable in the first place!"

Don't give up. The cableco has something wrong in your account. When I got an upgraded Moto card a while back, the tech had to call three different locations at Comcast. With each call, one or more missing channels appeared until I had everything I'm supposed to have. Why it couldn't be done with a single call, I have no idea.

twelvepbrs

03-01-07, 07:05 PM

Don't give up. The cableco has something wrong in your account. When I got an upgraded Moto card a while back, the tech had to call three different locations at Comcast. With each call, one or more missing channels appeared until I had everything I'm supposed to have. Why it couldn't be done with a single call, I have no idea.
yes, but what's particularly frustrating is this is a CBS affiliate, NOT a cable channel that should be encrypted otherwise...of the couple of CSR's i talked to, one was completely clueless, and the other one basically said they didn't have the resources to elevate the problem to someone who might be able to fix it.

chillstatus

03-02-07, 12:22 AM

optivity

03-02-07, 07:35 AM

Just received a TWC CableCard yesterday that is Motorola band. Once the CC was installed, my receiver is no longer picking up a digital audio signal from my digital audio output on my tv via rca coaxle. Has anyone else had this issue? The digital audio also stopped working for the OTA antenna output, but still works when I use my Xbox. All are using the same single cable from digital audio output.Uh oh... this may be the dreaded copy protection bit which is turning off the digital audio output interface (mine is optical digital audio out) on your TV. I experienced this problem for a year with my Panasonic 50U, which was not resolved until Panasonic issued a firmware update.

michaelk

03-04-07, 07:24 PM

so how does the cablecard know how to map the real channels to virtual channels? does it use the same data that is sent to time-warner's set-top-boxes if it's not using PSIP? also as of the last few months the virtual channel mapping using PSIP has been disabled for my area with TW in LA, last fall the clear-QAM HD channels mapped correctly, but since sometime in january, they dont map at all and i had to hunt them down

the cable carrier is supposed to pass along any PSIP data that they RECEIVE from the channel. If you care you should pitch a b**ch at TW.

It may be that they were originally getting the channel from an antenna so they got it with PSIP and as required by law they passed it along before. And then now in an attempt to get a better signal they get a wired version from the station and that version doesn't have the PSIP becasue it comes from a component before the PSIP generator. But unless you complain you won't know.

twelvepbrs

03-05-07, 03:03 AM

the cable carrier is supposed to pass along any PSIP data that they RECEIVE from the channel. If you care you should pitch a b**ch at TW.

It may be that they were originally getting the channel from an antenna so they got it with PSIP and as required by law they passed it along before. And then now in an attempt to get a better signal they get a wired version from the station and that version doesn't have the PSIP becasue it comes from a component before the PSIP generator. But unless you complain you won't know.
um...i think i need to take a step back..ok, does the PSIP info control what how the channel numbers map? for example through my CC, channel 411 is Fox-HD, but through clear-qam it's actually 116-8 (or something i forget the exact channel), is it the PSIP data that tells my tv to use channel 411 for FOX through the CC? or is it some other type of data? is PSIP also the same data that my STB uses to map the channel numbers? (SA 8300-HDDVR) if would see that if PSIP is what contains this information, then the cable companies would have to modify it since it basically holds the layout to their entire channel lineup

michaelk

03-05-07, 12:18 PM

um...i think i need to take a step back..ok, does the PSIP info control what how the channel numbers map? for example through my CC, channel 411 is Fox-HD, but through clear-qam it's actually 116-8 (or something i forget the exact channel), is it the PSIP data that tells my tv to use channel 411 for FOX through the CC? or is it some other type of data? is PSIP also the same data that my STB uses to map the channel numbers? (SA 8300-HDDVR) if would see that if PSIP is what contains this information, then the cable companies would have to modify it since it basically holds the layout to their entire channel lineup

PSIP works ONLY when there are no cablecards- when cable card is inserted it's channel map takes over.

For example- lets say youf fox-hd station's over the air channel number is 5-1:
-If you connect an antenna to your tv it should show up as 5-1 (although maybe it's really broadcast on UHF channel 20 over the air)
- if you connect your cable to your qam tuner -IF the cable company is passing PSIP then it should still come up as 5-1 (even though they apparently send it on 116-8). And again the regulations state if they receive PSIP from the station they can't strip it.
- once you plug a cable card in, it's channel map takes over and even though the station is broadcast on 116-8 they call it 411.
- cable's proprietary STB's (like the sa 8300) may or may not use that same mapping info that the cable cards use- I'm not sure yes or no honestly.
But I'm fairly certain it is NOT the PSIP data- if it where PSIP then our QAM tuners would automatically .create a channel map that equals the cable company's stb's even without cable cards (and as they frequently put the HD broadcast channels on wierd stations like 411 then there would be conflicts with what they should be passing for OTA)
I do know that for some things (like copy protection) one system is frequently used for the proprietary boxes and another system is used for the cablecards. But some providers might use the same method for both. So what happens on a cable company STB MIGHT NOT be the same as what happens on a cablecard device. Come July 1 that should all go away as cable needs to then use cablecardsin their own devices- but until then it's hit or miss- and doesn't help you today. This seperate but equal treatment that frequently reulsts in screwed up cablecard behavior is what hte FCC is trying to cure by forcing CC on leased STB's. They call it somethign like shared reliance- where what the cable compnay's do to cablecard users would also happen to their own leased STB subs.

gigaguy

03-05-07, 12:42 PM

twelvepbrs

03-05-07, 12:43 PM

PSIP works ONLY when there are no cablecards- when cable card is inserted it's channel map takes over.

For example- lets say youf fox-hd station's over the air channel number is 5-1:
-If you connect an antenna to your tv it should show up as 5-1 (although maybe it's really broadcast on UHF channel 20 over the air)
- if you connect your cable to your qam tuner -IF the cable company is passing PSIP then it should still come up as 5-1 (even though they apparently send it on 116-8). And again the regulations state if they receive PSIP from the station they can't strip it.
- once you plug a cable card in, it's channel map takes over and even though the station is broadcast on 116-8 they call it 411.
- cable's proprietary STB's (like the sa 8300) may or may not use that same mapping info that the cable cards use- I'm not sure yes or no honestly.
But I'm fairly certain it is NOT the PSIP data- if it where PSIP then our QAM tuners would automatically .create a channel map that equals the cable company's stb's even without cable cards (and as they frequently put the HD broadcast channels on wierd stations like 411 then there would be conflicts with what they should be passing for OTA)
I do know that for some things (like copy protection) one system is frequently used for the proprietary boxes and another system is used for the cablecards. But some providers might use the same method for both. So what happens on a cable company STB MIGHT NOT be the same as what happens on a cablecard device. Come July 1 that should all go away as cable needs to then use cablecardsin their own devices- but until then it's hit or miss- and doesn't help you today. This seperate but equal treatment that frequently reulsts in screwed up cablecard behavior is what hte FCC is trying to cure by forcing CC on leased STB's. They call it somethign like shared reliance- where what the cable compnay's do to cablecard users would also happen to their own leased STB subs.
hmmm, i wonder if it's possible for the cable co to strip and then replace the PSIP data, because up around last december, the clear qam channels would map to the same channels that the STB would also show them on, all my broadcast channels (fox, nbc, abc, cbs, etc...) were in the 400's, but the actual channels WERE sub-channels in the low 100's just like now, but within the last couple months, the HD's no longer map to the same virtual channels (or any virtual channels at all) with the exception of a couple of NBC's digital subs (like weather and 24-hour news but these are SD-digital)

michaelk

03-05-07, 02:03 PM

interesting- maybe....

michaelk

03-05-07, 02:08 PM

bplewis24

03-06-07, 11:33 AM

if we assume the same pace, it probably wont be until 2018 before such third party 2-way devices exist universally.

Awesome, only 11 more years! I was going to wait for HDMI 1.3 to come out before I bought my next tv, but now I think I'll hold off for this to happen as well!

j/k, but it sure doesn't seem too far-fetched. You could wait forever for all the technology you want to finally hit the market.

Brandon

twelvepbrs

03-06-07, 12:20 PM

Awesome, only 11 more years! I was going to wait for HDMI 1.3 to come out before I bought my next tv, but now I think I'll hold off for this to happen as well!

j/k, but it sure doesn't seem too far-fetched. You could wait forever for all the technology you want to finally hit the market.

Brandon
i'm waiting for the brain-TV ray gun, that way the tv wont take up any space in my apartment and people on the subway wont know that i'm watching pr0n :rolleyes:

markrubin

03-06-07, 12:23 PM

as we discuss Cablecard issues, does anyone notice that most of the new displays do not have Cablecard capabilities?

Many of the display manufacturers simply have given up on the card

nathanielmark01

03-06-07, 01:39 PM

I was just looking at the sharp website and it looks like only 2 huge lcd models have cablecard (over 50 inches). every time i am in a store looking at tvs i check for the cablecard slot and never see it. i bought a 32 inch lcd last year with cablecard and though i dont actually use it anymore for premium channels (when comcast bought out adelphia, the "HD Plus" channels went QAM), it is nice to know the capability is there. i could not imagine dealing with a cable box, not to mention the extra 10$ a month fees. at one point with adelphia, when i was paying for starz and i lost all my starz channels, they gave me a free box until they could fix the card and i noticed a marked decline in video quality... it could certainly be my tv, and i should also say i was running over component and not DVI, but i dont think that should make a difference... whichever brand (if any) support cablecard on mid-sized LCD tvs (37-42 inch) will be getting my business for the next tv purchase (i am ready to move my 32 up into the living room and upgrade for my theater room)... do the new sony's have CableCard?

o yeah, and i could care less about VOD, since i already have it with my HTPC ;) (of course, i would never maintain that i am anything less than 100% in compliance with copyright laws)

anyway - i am kind of surprised that so few people seem interested in cablecards. i guess people are content to have the second best video available for their TV and cannot get away from dependence on the cable companies for DVRs and VOD.

o - and one more thing, if Cable labs had anyone of even minor competence handling their business plans, they would open up the door for DIY HTPC builders to use their cards. however, i am guessing that its not their decision, but pressure from content providers that is leading them to force you to buy a prebuilt PC to get cablecard support.

dc10forlife

03-06-07, 09:43 PM

In my town TWC has many of their HD channels 'switched' and the cablecards they now use will not tune these channels. Are you saying they have to make CCs tune to these 'switched' channels. I use Sony DHG-HDD500 DVRS that I own.
I figure they will make CC comply with their boxes but not with mine.
I did give up :rolleyes:

This issue has been raised in FCC filings as early as last year by the CEA.

"�� Investigation of Problem:
o By CE Companies:
�� CE companies deeply studied and recognizing Cable’s need for future
bandwidth asked via Cable – CE negotiations for “work around” to
support future 1-Way CableCARD products.
( please note that already deployed CableCARD products will be stranded
by cable industry’s move to Switched Digital delivery ).
o By MSOs & CableLabs:
�� Cable industry acknowledged their review and study of this problem. Todate
cable industry has declined to accept CE proposed “work around” for
1-Way CableCARD switched digital delivery (or offer alternative for
future 1-Way devices).
�� Conclusion from CE Company Perspective:
Cable industry effect on CableCARD market:
o Already deployed CableCARD devices ( > 4 MILLION ) stranded.
o Future of CableCARD products in market unclear AT BEST.
�� Proposed Solution for Problem Described:
Common Reliance would help eliminate the “double standard”. If cable industry ALSO
depended on CableCARD for delivery of service there would be no need for a “work
around”."

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518331898

Since cable companies have been soundly rebuked by the FCC on an extension of the integration ban, one would hope that they are actively pursuing the workaround as listed above. Come July, the cablecard boxes the cable companies will be rolling out, to the best of my knowledge, will be two-way capable (however, the cable distribution system are likely to still only be one-way capable). If a workaround of some sort isn't put into place, then all of these new boxes won't be able to tune SDV content.

With the recent FCC rebuke, I can't imagine that cable companies would be able to exclude SDV content from the current generation of cablecards and cablecard devices without invoking the wrath of the FCC.

dc10forlife

03-06-07, 09:58 PM

as we discuss Cablecard issues, does anyone notice that most of the new displays do not have Cablecard capabilities?

Many of the display manufacturers simply have given up on the card

Well it seems some have reduced support while others have added support. For example, Toshiba has dramatically reduced support, while JVC appears to have added it.

JVCs new line of 1080p lcds have it. See http://www.jvc.com/product.jsp?productId=PRD4208302&

My guess is that some companies had major tech support issues after the first round on cablecard tvs and decided to sit out for a year or two while the problems were resoved.

Here is a list I found. Looks like a lot of old models in here. http://www.cablelabs.com/udcp/downloads/OC_PNP.pdf

Anyone have a list of 2006-2007 models?

twelvepbrs

03-06-07, 10:00 PM

This issue has been raised in FCC filings as early as last year by the CEA.

"�� Investigation of Problem:
o By CE Companies:
�� CE companies deeply studied and recognizing Cable’s need for future
bandwidth asked via Cable – CE negotiations for “work around” to
support future 1-Way CableCARD products.
( please note that already deployed CableCARD products will be stranded
by cable industry’s move to Switched Digital delivery ).
o By MSOs & CableLabs:
�� Cable industry acknowledged their review and study of this problem. Todate
cable industry has declined to accept CE proposed “work around” for
1-Way CableCARD switched digital delivery (or offer alternative for
future 1-Way devices).
�� Conclusion from CE Company Perspective:
Cable industry effect on CableCARD market:
o Already deployed CableCARD devices ( > 4 MILLION ) stranded.
o Future of CableCARD products in market unclear AT BEST.
�� Proposed Solution for Problem Described:
Common Reliance would help eliminate the “double standard”. If cable industry ALSO
depended on CableCARD for delivery of service there would be no need for a “work
around”."

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518331898

Since cable companies have been soundly rebuked by the FCC on an extension of the integration ban, one would hope that they are actively pursuing the workaround as listed above. Come July, the cablecard boxes the cable companies will be rolling out, to the best of my knowledge, will be two-way capable (however, the cable distribution system are likely to still only be one-way capable). If a workaround of some sort isn't put into place, then all of these new boxes won't be able to tune SDV content.

With the recent FCC rebuke, I can't imagine that cable companies would be able to exclude SDV content from the current generation of cablecards and cablecard devices without invoking the wrath of the FCC.
i've gotten into arguments about it with a couple people already, but cable co's wouldn't need to go to SDV just yet if they would just drop all the analogs, and replace them with the corresponding SD digital channel, i realize this would mean a different portion of the population would be stranded, but if a cable system carries 70 analogs (about what mine carries) this would create enough room for at least 300 SD-digital channels or almost 100 HD channels, i know i'll get flamed with the "what about billy-joe-bob who still has his 20 year old set and basica analog" but i really dont think there are that many people like that out there, and i have a feeling a lot of them are getting some kind of group service (like my whole apartment complex has basic cable)

dc10forlife

03-06-07, 10:27 PM

More discussion from filings to the FCC:

"Nothing in the November 7, 2006 proposal [the CEA proposal for cablecard standards] would delay the delivery of switched digital services, though the Commission might reasonably decide to prohibit switched digital deployment until competitive devices have access to switched digital channels. In fact, the proposal fixes for future retail devices a major problem presented by switched digital and establishes a quick and easy path toward ensuring that consumers are not disenfranchised from the content for which they have paid. The proposal would require the cable industry to modify the existing CableCARD software in a way that would allow retail devices to access switched-digital services, but it would not affect any element of the underlying switched digital service itself. As such, it is difficult to understand how the proposal would delay or preclude entirely the deployment of switched digital or any other interactive services.

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518709592

Hope this is interesting to some here.

dc10forlife

03-06-07, 10:32 PM

i've gotten into arguments about it with a couple people already, but cable co's wouldn't need to go to SDV just yet if they would just drop all the analogs, and replace them with the corresponding SD digital channel, i realize this would mean a different portion of the population would be stranded, but if a cable system carries 70 analogs (about what mine carries) this would create enough room for at least 300 SD-digital channels or almost 100 HD channels, i know i'll get flamed with the "what about billy-joe-bob who still has his 20 year old set and basica analog" but i really dont think there are that many people like that out there, and i have a feeling a lot of them are getting some kind of group service (like my whole apartment complex has basic cable)

I agree with you completely. At the very least, put the "expanded basic" on digital only. This should have happened two years ago. Then, come 2009, migrate everything over to digital (coincide with the end of analog broadcasts). In many markets, digital is almost equal in cost to expanded basic.

The cable industry, however, is worried that the "no box" delivery is one remaining advantage over DBS and therefore doesn't want to get rid of it (and even go so far as fighting with the broadcasters to downrez the digital signal come 2009 in order to continue to offer).

twelvepbrs

03-06-07, 11:06 PM

I agree with you completely. At the very least, put the "expanded basic" on digital only. This should have happened two years ago. Then, come 2009, migrate everything over to digital (coincide with the end of analog broadcasts). In many markets, digital is almost equal in cost to expanded basic.

The cable industry, however, is worried that the "no box" delivery is one remaining advantage over DBS and therefore doesn't want to get rid of it (and even go so far as fighting with the broadcasters to downrez the digital signal come 2009 in order to continue to offer).
what's hilarious about the "no box" delivery, is that as/if more and more people buy tv's that take CC's they also have "no box" if cable co's had embraced the cable card, instead of barely supporting it to get everyone to pay for STB's then i think CC's wouldnt have the stigma of flaky technology, and more CC enabled TV's would move off the shelves, thus increasing cable's "no box" advantage
considering that extended basic analog is at least as expensive as digital in my area, i dont really see how cable thinks that's a competitive advantage, unless there are that many customers who just pay their bill and don't wonder if they are getting what they pay for, i'm sure if they honestly told everyone that for the same cost they could have the exact same channels but in much better quality (assuming they dont overcompress which i would hope since they'd have all the extra BW the analogs used to take up), consumers would jump on the ship, especially the ones who dont want to pay DBS start up costs, or just cant have DBS because of lack of clear view, etc...
and third, anderson valley's brother david's tripel is friggin delicious

bicker1

03-07-07, 07:12 AM

as we discuss Cablecard issues, does anyone notice that most of the new displays do not have Cablecard capabilities? Many of the display manufacturers simply have given up on the cardYup, noticed that. It's a flawed idea, driven solely by a flawed perception of entitlement. CE manufactures have realized that, see no strong up-side for them in providing the capability (an lots of down-side, in terms of tech support finger-pointing).

bicker1

03-07-07, 07:17 AM

i've gotten into arguments about it with a couple people already, but cable co's wouldn't need to go to SDV just yet if they would just drop all the analogs, and replace them with the corresponding SD digital channel, i realize this would mean a different portion of the population would be strandedA portion of the population that is generally less capable of bridging the gap themselves. In the end, the people who want more HD can afford to rent cable company equipment to get it, if SDV is employed, if that's what it takes.

i know i'll get flamed with the "what about billy-joe-bob who still has his 20 year old set and basica analog" but i really dont think there are that many people like that out thereYou're mistaken. There are 41 million homes still relying on analog (including mine). Even if the number was lower, again, you're talking about actions that would make things cheaper for rich people while making things more expensive for poor people. I just don't think that will sell to the American electorate. ;)

michaelk

03-07-07, 10:31 AM

as we discuss Cablecard issues, does anyone notice that most of the new displays do not have Cablecard capabilities?

Many of the display manufacturers simply have given up on the card

first (original) reason- cable as a whole did/does everything to discourage people from using the slot if they own it. So only a tiny percentage use the slot even if they own a TV with it. If you are the manufacturer why waste money to include the slot (therefore adding to the MSRP) when only like a single digit percentage uses it?

Second (becoming bigger) reason- there's no 2-way standard. Beyond ppv and vod not being availible today. There's a good chance unidirectional devices will be crippled at some point in the future as switched video comes along- without a 2-way system anything on switched video is impossible to tune with cablecard. Time Warner, Comcast, and Cablevision are all deploying switched video. What's that 50% of cable houses? So 50% of the people that buy current cablecard devices will not be able to tune all the channels their provider has.

Cablecard has little LONG TERM appeal until a 2-way standard acceptable to all parties is implemented and deployed. (I have cable card Tivo Series3 today and I'm looking to buy a second- so I'm happy with it as is. But There is the nagging worry that my provider might start using switched video and start adding channels that I might want using that system)

michaelk

03-07-07, 10:36 AM

This issue has been raised in FCC filings as early as last year by the CEA.

"�� Investigation of Problem:
o By CE Companies:
�� CE companies deeply studied and recognizing Cable’s need for future
bandwidth asked via Cable – CE negotiations for “work around” to
support future 1-Way CableCARD products.
( please note that already deployed CableCARD products will be stranded
by cable industry’s move to Switched Digital delivery ).
o By MSOs & CableLabs:
�� Cable industry acknowledged their review and study of this problem. Todate
cable industry has declined to accept CE proposed “work around” for
1-Way CableCARD switched digital delivery (or offer alternative for
future 1-Way devices).
�� Conclusion from CE Company Perspective:
Cable industry effect on CableCARD market:
o Already deployed CableCARD devices ( > 4 MILLION ) stranded.
o Future of CableCARD products in market unclear AT BEST.
�� Proposed Solution for Problem Described:
Common Reliance would help eliminate the “double standard”. If cable industry ALSO
depended on CableCARD for delivery of service there would be no need for a “work
around”."

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518331898

Since cable companies have been soundly rebuked by the FCC on an extension of the integration ban, one would hope that they are actively pursuing the workaround as listed above. Come July, the cablecard boxes the cable companies will be rolling out, to the best of my knowledge, will be two-way capable (however, the cable distribution system are likely to still only be one-way capable). If a workaround of some sort isn't put into place, then all of these new boxes won't be able to tune SDV content.

With the recent FCC rebuke, I can't imagine that cable companies would be able to exclude SDV content from the current generation of cablecards and cablecard devices without invoking the wrath of the FCC.

The new boxes cable will be using only use the cablecard to decrypt the streams- they still use their closed proprietary standards for 2-way communication. That's the problem.

They are NOT going to be using even the cablelabs standard for 2-way devices (OCAP) that the CE company's dont even like. The FCC won't even mandate that one-sided cable developed standard never mind an open one like the CE company's would want.

pixelswim

03-07-07, 10:38 AM

um...i think i need to take a step back..ok, does the PSIP info control what how the channel numbers map? for example through my CC, channel 411 is Fox-HD, but through clear-qam it's actually 116-8 (or something i forget the exact channel), is it the PSIP data that tells my tv to use channel 411 for FOX through the CC? or is it some other type of data? is PSIP also the same data that my STB uses to map the channel numbers? (SA 8300-HDDVR) if would see that if PSIP is what contains this information, then the cable companies would have to modify it since it basically holds the layout to their entire channel lineup

..and michaelk:
"- cable's proprietary STB's (like the sa 8300) may or may not use that same mapping info that the cable cards use- I'm not sure yes or no honestly.
But I'm fairly certain it is NOT the PSIP data- if it where PSIP then our QAM tuners would automatically .create a channel map that equals the cable company's stb's even without cable cards (and as they frequently put the HD broadcast channels on wierd stations like 411 then there would be conflicts with what they should be passing for OTA)
I do know that for some things (like copy protection) one system is frequently used for the proprietary boxes and another system is used for the cablecards. But some providers might use the same method for both. So what happens on a cable company STB MIGHT NOT be the same as what happens on a cablecard device."

I agree with michaelk's funtional description of the CC ch remapping feature. As far as -how- it happens, I'd like to add this:
From the SA documents & other stuff I've read I've formed the following (possibly inaccurate) picture ...
I believe the CC receives a single downloaded file from the headend that contains (funtionally) a simple two-field table that takes the digital signal (let's say 116-8) designation and maps it to (let's say 411). I think this channel remapping funtion of the cablecard is the second major function it has after the "unencrypt" function.

I agree it is -not- the psip. I agree that it is hard to tell whether this little downloaded channel remapping table might be the same table (in one of the console programs) or even the same little file that some of the STBs receive.

I mention this again because I think the possibility exists that when we CC users do not receive, say, a single channel (..and good example, one of the in-the-clear ones that our qam tuners show us we should receive) that there might be *two* trouble-points: 1) a provisioning error (ie. your account should/does indicate you should get the channel but that info is not linked to your host/cc-id-pair that will get your entitlements out to the correct address, the cc device in your home.) 2) a channel remap table error -- it could be that whenever the cableco makes some change to their channel order an engineer has to manually change the list, using some console software. It could be even worse, there might be separate lists for the file used by the STBs and for the CCs, so you could have an error in one and not the other.

michaelk

03-07-07, 10:48 AM

....
You're mistaken. There are 70 million homes still relying on analog (including mine). Even if the number was lower, again, you're talking about actions that would make things cheaper for rich people while making things more expensive for poor people. I just don't think that will sell to the American electorate. ;)

you have a source for that number? I'm curious.

I think it's still huge but I think it's closer to half or 3/4's that number. I know my DINK provider (~80k so not sure if it's indicative- that's why I'm wondering)- has like more then half their subs digital.

But being digital doesn't mean you dont have no analog- I myself Have 2 digital sets (one on a series 3 tivo with cablecards, the other with a leased STB) AND I have another tv that just has a tivo getting analog only as a "spare")

So thinking about it... It could very well be that 70 million houses still have at least one analog cable set?

Also- I totally agree that it would hurt the lower class more but seriously how often does that play into things? We're ditching analog broadcast- OTA only homes are likely is populated with some of the poorest folks (some might be higher end but clearly some might be too poor to afford pay tv). The government isn't even proposing to make those people whole- at best they will get a 40 dollar coupon for their first 2 tv's. Yet the lure of the cash from selling the upper UHF channels is more important to the pols.

One quick fix- the FCC could mandate that shopping channels have to be digital- LOL. I know on my system that would free up 3 ananlog slots which. In digital you could fit those 3 SD's, 3 new SD's and then 4 new HD channels. That buys you another year. :D

bicker1

03-07-07, 11:43 AM

you have a source for that number? I'm curious.Sorry, my memory was off. It's 41 million according to the AP.

I think it's still huge but I think it's closer to half or 3/4's that number.Your memory is a heck of a lot better than mine.

But being digital doesn't mean you dont have no analog- I myself Have 2 digital sets (one on a series 3 tivo with cablecards, the other with a leased STB) AND I have another tv that just has a tivo getting analog only as a "spare") So thinking about it... It could very well be that 70 million houses still have at least one analog cable set?That was my logic.

If you think about it, I think most folks here in the forum will probably realize that they're included in that number.

Also- I totally agree that it would hurt the lower class more but seriously how often does that play into things?With laws, quite a bit. The law is the grand equalizer in our society, keeping the rich from engaging in tyranny over the poor, and it works very effectively, IMHO.

twelvepbrs

03-07-07, 12:27 PM

A portion of the population that is generally less capable of bridging the gap themselves. In the end, the people who want more HD can afford to rent cable company equipment to get it, if SDV is employed, if that's what it takes.

You're mistaken. There are 41 million homes still relying on analog (including mine). Even if the number was lower, again, you're talking about actions that would make things cheaper for rich people while making things more expensive for poor people. I just don't think that will sell to the American electorate. ;)
if you only have analog how come you're spending so much time on an HDTV reception forum? :p

dt_dc

03-07-07, 01:20 PM

BTW, the NCTA estimates (as of late 2006) about 34 million analog cable households. That's a household that subscribes to cable, and does not have any digital services / STBs.
http://www.ncta.com/ContentView.aspx?contentId=54

Looking at some of the top cable companies ...
Comcast 11.5 million analog subs
Time Warner 6.4 million analog subs
Charter 2.6 million analog subs
CableVision .7 million analog subs
http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6421103.html

Again, that's not a 'TV' count ... that's number of analog-only subscribers.

That's 34 million (cable) households with no digital STBs or services. Obviously, there's lots of 'digital' cable subscribers that also have one (or two or three) analog STB-less TVs hooked up too. That particular number doesn't get estimated all that often (pretty hard number to estimate).