BEFORE YOU LOOK AT THIS FAQ, READ THIS:
THIS FAQ OUTLINES THE KNOWN PROBLEM OF STANDARD DEFINITION MATERIAL LAGGING ON HIGH DEFINITION SETS.

HIGH DEFINITION MATERIAL DOES NOT LAG ON A HIGH DEFINITION SET 99% OF THE TIME. SO, IF YOU HAVE A PS3, X-BOX 360, OR HTPC, YOU DO NOT NEED TO READ THIS.

fubarduck's HDTV / Video Game Lag FAQ version 2.5

Introduction
First of all, keep in mind that this is not a FAQ about HDTV. If you do not understand the basics about HDTV, this FAQ may be hard to understand so I would recommend checking out an HDTV-related FAQ first. Once you're comfortable with that, read this FAQ and you ought to understand quite well how to prevent or correct any lag-related problems. Also, while much of what I post has been tested and confirmed personally, some of my information only comes from what I have only heard from owners of other HDTVs. As such, I will constantly be updating this FAQ as new information surfaces.

Part I

Why do HDTVs lag on video games?
HDTVs typically only have one or two "native" resolutions. A set's native resolution is the resolution that it displays on the screen. This means that sometimes, the HDTV must "scale" the resolution you input in order to display it.

On regular, non-HD televisions, there is only one native resolution, which is 480i (240p). Whenever you play a video game on a standard definition TV, the game console always outputs 480i/240p and the TV displays it as 480i/240p. No need for any scaling, so response time is always normal and accurate.

However, because HDTVs NEVER have 480i/240p (Standard Definition) and usually not even 480p (Enhanced Definition) as a native resolution, that means that any video game console we have that can't output a High Definition signal is likely to lag on any HDTV display. It isn't that it is impossible to scale an image with no lag; HDTVs simply put the emphasis on image quality, which takes some time to process, rather than speed. Some newer HDTVs now come equipped with a "Game Mode" to speed up the scaling process and reduce or eliminate lag on the set. You can read more about "Game Mode" later into the FAQ.

So just how bad is the lag?
Although there is no real way to measure, and the numbers vary based on the HDTV, the average HDTV seems to lag roughly 6 frames, or 1/10th of a second when processing 480i material. DLP HDTVs seem to be a bit worse, some people claiming lag up to 15 frames, or 1/4th of a second. If these numbers will not affect your gaming habit, don't worry about it too much. Casual gamers probably will not notice a lag this small; you can stop reading and get back to gaming if that's the case. The most affected gamers will be those who play ultra-time sensitive games such rhythm games, sports games with swinging/kicking meters, shooters, or fighting games. If you fall into one of these categories, please read on.

UPDATE: There IS a way to measure HDTV Gaming Lag now. Guitar Hero II for PS2 and X360 has a built-in test under the video options, which measures lag in milliseconds. (~17ms = 1 frame)

I also recommend checking out this page started by another helpful AVS Forum member:
http://hdtvlag.googlepages.com/

Here, you can actually see someone who measured the problem very accurately with LCD HDTVs. The test on this site was done with 480i material.

Will my HDTV be affected by video game lag?
The greatest problem of video gaming lag occurs when playing 480i/240p (Standard Definition) games, but can also occur when playing 480p (Enhanced Definition) games. However, playing at a resolution of 480p (Enhanced Definition) or better typically eliminates most or all lag because the most strenuous process of scaling is the process of converting a 480i (interlaced) signal to a 480p (progressive) signal. The people that typically complain about lag even when playing in 480p (progressive) are DLP users, but in theory any HDTV that does not support 480p natively could still be affected. However, an HDTV signal should not experience lag on any HDTV.

As a rule of thumb, you should stay away from DLP sets if you plan on playing a lot of timing-sensitive video games.

So what resolution are my video games outputting?

Pre-PS2 game systems:
240p/480i (240p is the same scan rate as 480i and therefore experiences the same problems)

Playstation 2:
480i (most games), 480p (a few games)

Gamecube : 480i (a few games), 480p (most games)

X-Box: 480p (most games), 480i (a few games), 720p (a few games)

X-Box 360:
All X-Box and X-Box 360 games can be outputted to your choice of 480p, 1080i, or 720p.


These are the resolutions that video game systems can output. For a full list of what game supports what resolution, a good source is http://www.hdtvarcade.com.

What is the native resolution of my display?
CRT HDTVs usually have two native resolutions and sometimes only one. Those resolutions are typically 480p and 1080i. Sometimes, it is only 1080i. THERE ARE NO CRT HDTVS THAT CAN DISPLAY A NATIVE RESOLUTION OF 480i.

Plasma, LCD, and DLP HDTVs always have one native resolution. The native resolution is different for each set. Sometimes it's 720p, sometimes 1080i, sometimes 1080p, and sometimes something completely different.

Example Chart

Worst: You will notice lag.
Better: There is lag, but it may be an acceptable level for you.
Best: There is no lag.

Example 1 (TV: Samsung DLP with 720p native resolution)*
Worst: SNES Game (240p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Noticeable lag.
Worst: PS2 Game (480i) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Noticeable lag.
Better: PS2 Game (480p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Fairly small lag.
Better: X-Box Game (480p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Fairly small lag.
Better: PS2 Game with Samsung DLP's Game Mode activated (480i) --> Fairly small lag.
Best: X-Box Game (720p) --> Samsung displays the image directly --> Small lag.
Best: X-Box 360 Game (720p) --> Samsung displays the image directly --> Small lag.

Example 2 (TV: Sony CRT HDTV with both 480p and 1080i native resolutions):
Better: SNES Game (240p) --> Sony CRT HDTV upscales to 480p --> Small lag.
Better: PS2 Game (480i) --> Sony CRT HDTV upscales to 480p --> Small lag.
Best: PS2 Game (480p) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays the image directly --> No lag.
Best: X-Box Game (480p) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays image directly --> No lag.
Best: X-Box Game (1080i) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays image directly --> No lag.

Example 3 (TV: Sony LCD with 1080p native resolution)
Worst: SNES Game (240p) --> Sony LCD upscales to 1080p --> Lag.
Worst: PS2 Game (480i) --> Sony LCD upscales to 1080p --> Lag.
Best: X-Box 360 game (720p) --> Sony LCD upscales to 1080p --> Small lag.
Better: Any game on any system with Game Mode activated (any resolution) --> Fairly small lag.

* Note that all Samsung DLPs pass the signal through its internal DCDi scaler which will result in lag even if you game at the TV's native resolution (Source: http://gear.ign.com/articles/744/744064p2.html)

The only way to completely avoid lag on any system is to only play games at a resolution in which your HDTV doesn't have to do any scaling.

As always, the BEST way to test for lag is to take your gaming set-up to your local electronics store and politely ask to test it on their HDTVs, which they shouldn't mind at all since you're a potential customer. Bring a time sensitive game, such as a fighting game, a rhythm game, or a golf/football game with a swinging/kicking meter. It's worth it to do a small trip to the store like this before you make such a large investment!



Part II: Reducing/Eliminating lag on HDTVs


Solution A: Getting all games to output in 720p, 1080i, or 1080p

Option 1
This is hands-down the best solution available, and has been well-documented already by Gerry Block at IGN Gear. Please see the article here:

http://gear.ign.com/articles/718/718587p1.html

Basically, this device will take any input and thanks to the "Game Mode" will output to ANY resolution with less than one frame of processing time. Unfortunately, this solution costs around $2,000 which is simply out of most gamers' price range. At the end of this article, the DVDO folks suggest that a cheaper product may be released in the future focused specifically towards gamers, but until then, this is the only end-all solution.

iScan VP20 or VP30 + ABT102d deinterlacing card and
iScan VP50

are the products that can do lag-free gaming, and are both highly recommended. Currently these are the only "end-all" solutions.

Option 2
Our next choice is to look to the next generation of consoles. The X-Box 360 can output all 360 games and compatible Xbox 1 games to either 720p, 1080i, and after a dashboard update via Xbox Live due at the end of November, 1080p. This is done by the X-Box 360 with no perceivable lag.

Update 5/24/07 - The PS3 is now be capable of doing the same thing as of Firmware Version 1.8, but due to the poor deinterlacing algorithm used for backwards compatibility, PS1 and PS2 games will lag on your HDTV EVEN if you output a 720p, 1080i, or 1080p signal to your display.

The Xploder HDTV Player is now shipping here: http://www.xploder.net/products/148/Xploder-HDTV-Player.htm

However, it seems to be very bad at what it does, even at outputting a simple 480p signal. See IGN Gear's review here:
http://gear.ign.com/articles/742/742965p1.html
[/b]

Avoid the Xploder HDTV Player at ALL costs, as it does not perform as advertised.



Solution B: Getting 240p/480i games to output in 480p

Since playing a video game in 480p or better resolution typically greatly reduces or eliminates the lag, this is the second-best solution for HDTV owners.

This may reduce but not eliminate the lag on DLP sets. Across the Internet, many people claim that 480p still suffers from unreasonable lag on DLP HDTV's. Maybe you won't notice it, but if you're a hardcore gamer you probably will.


OK, so all we need to do now is find a VGA box that outputs 640x480 at 60Hz in NTSC mode (aka 480p), a resolution that any HDTV can accept. The only such VGA boxes that do this are Japanese. Time to point your Web browser over to http://www.ncsx.com.

The Products
First, we have the Hori Upscan Converter 2.
http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/HP2-143P2.html
Hori's product was designed specifically for PS2 but can take an input from any electronic device that outputs Composite or S-Video. However, the quality from any Composite or S-Video device is probably questionable. Of course, it's probably only the PS2 that we care about, since 95% of Gamecube and X-Box games can output 480p, anyway.

Next, we have Micomsoft's XRGB-2+.
http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/XRGB-2P2.html
The XRGB-2+ is hands-down the best VGA box available on the market. The $200 pricetag is for a reason--the XRGB-2+ is unique in that it is the only console that can accept a Japanese RGB input from any console with the proper cable. RGB is the best possible method that any current video game console can output video, but American TVs typically don't have an RGB input. It can also take Composite, S-Video, or D-Terminal input (a Japan-only style connector which is exactly the same quality as Component input in the US). The best possible quality connection from a PS2 would be to use a Japanese RGB PS2 cable and have it run to the XRGB-2+ which then outputs to your HDTV. However, reviewers have said that when they use the D-Terminal connection that they can't tell the different between that and the RGB connection. Either one is probably fine. The XRGB-2+ also comes with a Component to D-Terminal cable, so that you can use Component cables for the D-Terminal input. The XRGB-2+ also has a plethora of video and synchronization options that the Upscan Converter 2 is lacking.

Unfortunately, as of this revision, the XRGB-2+ has now been discontinued because of the recently released XRGB-3.

http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/XRGB-3.html

The XRGB-3 is a quality product, but the way it functions is much different from the XRGB-2+. The XRGB-3 was designed with a frame buffer system which has a built in lag when using its normal function mode, which outputs at 1024x768, 1280x1024, or 1600x1200. Unfortunately, the XRGB-3 cannot output to these resolutions without lag whether it outputs VGA or DVI.

480i material suffers approximately 80-100ms of lag, while 480p material suffers approximately 10-20ms of lag.

Fortunately, the XRGB-3 has a downloadable firmware update from Micomsoft's home page (in Japanese) called "Line Doubler and Transcoder mode". This mode does NOT lag like the normal mode, but only outputs in 640x480 (480p) and only via VGA (not DVI). Many of the XRGB-3's special features such as freeze-frame and PIP also become unusable.

The XRGB-3 in this mode functions as follows:

- 480i signals are line doubled and displayed as 480p
- 480p signals are accepted and displayed as 480p
- 1080i/720p signals are accepted and displayed as 1080i/720p

So, it's basically exactly like the XRGB-2+ except with 480p and HD signal passthrough support. Keep in mind that 1080p passthrough is not supported.


Finally, Dreamcast-only users have one more option: as some of you may already know, Dreamcast ALREADY is capable of outputting a 640x480 60hz VGA signal! All you need is a Dreamcast VGA Cable, and you can totally eliminate the need for a regular VGA box. The Dreamcast game you are playing MUST support VGA mode for this solution to work, but the vast majority of games for Dreamcast support this mode (including all of the fighting games) so everyone here should be fine--check out http://www.hdtvarcade.com for a full list of VGA-Capable Dreamcast games.

Connecting these products to your HDTV
There are two different options--some HDTV owners luckily already have a VGA monitor port on the back of their HDTV. Those people can simply plug their VGA Box or Dreamcast VGA Cable's output straight into the back of their HDTV and they're all ready to go.

The other possible solution is to buy a VGA to Component adapter (such as the Audio Authority 9A60 VGA to Component Video Converter, google it). Such an adapter allows you to change the output of your VGA box/Dreamcast VGA Cable so that it plugs into a normal component video input on the back of your HDTV.

However, my personal recommendation for VGA to Component is now Micomsoft's XSelect-D4, available here: http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/XS-D4.html. Another high-quality Japanese product by the makers of the XRGB-2+, the XSelect-D4 is also capable of taking a VGA input (from Input 3 in the back) and outputting a D-Terminal signal (which can be converted to Component easily via a D-Terminal to Component cable). It also doubles as a high-quality Component video selector for those of you with multiple game systems.



Solution C: Game Mode

Another (and much easier) solution is to use your HDTV's "Game Mode" to speed up the scaling process from 480i to your HDTV's native resolution. However, not all HDTV's have such a Game Mode. HDTVs which utilize a game mode are STILL very susceptable to lag despite speeding up the scaling process.

Here is a quote from Samsung’s Dan Schinasi in an interview with gaming illustrated:
"Current 1080p models incorporate "GAME MODE" which minimizes lag time by 30 percent. This feature will be common on most 2006 models."

30 percent, huh? Well, for those of you happy with 30 percent . . .

Remember: DLP should be avoided at all costs, and Solution A and B are typically a better route than Solution C. However, Solution C may be a more reasonable solution for gamers who do not care about or need perfect time-sensitivity.

Most "Game Mode" functions in HDTVs will reduce a lag of 80-100ms to a lag of only 20-30ms, which may be acceptable for your gaming purposes. However, this is still enough lag to affect gamers who need perfect timing.




Conclusion
Fortunately, the ball is rolling now and many important people are aware of the problem of HDTV gaming lag. The only solutions now are either expensive, inconvenient, or both. However, as more companies roll out solutions specficially to target the problem of gaming lag, I anticipate that we will have a universal, cost-effective, and perfect (less than one frame) solution within the next year or two. Thanks to people noticing this FAQ and to contributions from others from AVSForum, IGN, Shoryuken.com, HDTVArcade, and Shmups forums, the problem has been publicized and steps in the right direction have been taken to educate the average gamer who brings home a new HDTV only to discover his totally sucky scores in Guitar Hero.

Be aware that these are all relatively new solutions that few people have had the time and patience to accomplish, although anyone should be able to do them with reasonable success.

Credit goes to acem77 from http://www.hdtvarcade.com for discovering the XRGB-2+ fix.




Part III: Q&A

Q: My friend says that CRT HDTV's don't lag.
A: All varieties of HDTV are susceptable to video game lag. CRT, LCD, Plasma, any HDTV. I have seen many posts lately saying that XXX technology doesn't lag which simply isn't true. All technologies are susceptable to the problem, because all HDTVs use video scaling.


Q: My friend says the only HDTV's that lag are DLP's!
A: All varieties of HDTV are susceptable to video game lag. CRT, LCD, Plasma, any HDTV. I have seen many posts lately saying that XXX technology doesn't lag which simply isn't true. All technologies are susceptable to the problem, because all HDTVs use video scaling.


Q: My new Samsung DLP is supposed to have a Game Mode, but I can't find it.
A: On the newer Samsung DLPs, the way you turn on "Game Mode" is by actually setting the name of the input as "Game".


Q: Which HDTVs have a Game Mode?
A: Many newer HDTVs incorporate a Game Mode. Check the HDTV's manual to see if it incorporates a function, and remember, there is no Game Mode that eliminates lag 100% yet.


Q: I play PS2 all the time on XXX HDTV and it never lags, what gives?
A: What's more likely is that you don't notice the lag that occurs. Try a timing-sensitive game such as a rhythm game or a sports game with a swinging/kicking meter. If you still don't notice it, ignorance is bliss.


Q: I own a Samsung DLP. What should I do?
A: While it's best to avoid DLP technology altogether, the person who originally pointed me in the direction of the XRGB-2+ (acem77 from HDTVarcade.com) claims that when playing through the VGA port there is no lag. All other Samsung DLP users claim that 480p still lags through the Component inputs, so it is possible that going through the VGA input helps bypass more of the suboptimal DLP scaling processes. I have not personally verified this, but if you already own a DLP, there may still be hope. Try out an XRGB-2+ or XRGB-3 and see what it can do for you.


Q: So why does the XRGB-2+/XRGB-3 greatly reduce or eliminate lag? Does it output a digital/High Def signal or something like that?
A: No. The XRGB-2+/XRGB-3 are devices that upscan a video game signal from 480i to 480p, typically doing a much faster (and nicer-looking) job than most HDTV's built-in video scalers. First of all, the signal is analog, since we're outputting analog VGA from the XRGB-2+/XRGB-3. Secondly, 480p is still not a High Definition signal--but it's good enough to prevent most HDTVs from lagging.


Q: Why don't companies make HDTVs with a good built-in scaler, like the XRGB-2+?
A: Companies making HDTVs know what sells them: how good they look in the showroom. Therefore, HDTV manufacturers are concentrating on making scalers that make popular Standard Definition material such as Standard Definition TV channels and DVDs look as good as possible; processing time was probably not even considered an issue. They are still willing to ignore video gamers because the public is extremely uninformed and the less hardcore gamers probably do not even notice the lag. Have you ever seen the advertisement or brochure for an HDTV tell you how much it lagged on non-High Definition material? Didn't think so.
The XRGB-2+, on the other hand, was designed to make video games look good AND does so with no lag. If only HDTV companies would pick up on Micomsoft's idea!


Q: Who are you? Why do you know all this stuff?
A: I am one of the few hardcore video gamers who also happens to be an audio/video and home theater enthusiast. My main interest is 2D and 3D fighting games from Capcom, SNK, Sammy, Namco, and various other companies. I noticed lag immediately on my first HDTV set after trying to play Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike on it. As fighting games are time-sensitive down to the frame (1/30th or 1/60th of a second, depending on the game), it was very easy for my friends and I to notice. I am also a perfectionist, so ever since then I have searched and tested various products in order to find a solution for playing fighting games and many other video games on my HDTV at home, lag-free and without nasty scaling artifacts. After a few years, I have discovered what I believe to be the "best" solutions--for now.

Updated:
05/24/2007: PS3 Firmware 1.8 still lags PS1/PS2 games
10/21/2006: PS3: No Upscaling for PS1/PS2 games; Xploder HDTV
09/26/2006: XRGB-3, DVDO iScan VP20/VP30, and hdtvlag.googlepages.com
07/08/2006
03/06/2006: Version 2.0; heavy revisions and some new information
09/05/2005: Added Modding info.
07/12/2005: Added Dreamcast VGA Box.
07/12/2005: Added HDTVs with "Game Mode"

Yeah, I been waiting to try and get ahold of one of these. I did try an iScan last year, but it didn't eliminate the problem. Glad to hear there's more confirmation out there.

Cush

Don't VGA boxes forego de-interlacing 480i material in favor of just line-doubling it?

Yeah, I been waiting to try and get ahold of one of these. I did try an iScan last year, but it didn't eliminate the problem. Glad to hear there's more confirmation out there.

Cush
Well, I think acem77 was right on the dot about the iScan--the iScan is a device designed for watching movies, not playing games. The DVDO Web site even mentions in the specs for the iScan line of products that you must route your audio through the iScan itself in order to sync the sound (to compensate for video processing delay) so it's no wonder it didn't work.

The XRGB-2 Plus, however, is a line doubler designed for playing video games. It's really too bad it only outputs VGA, but it's perfect for you Samsung DLP owners!! Perhaps in the future a smart company will notice the need for an all-in-one solution (no-lag line doubler with Component input and output). On another note, there is also one Toshiba DLP set that has a "game mode" which is supposed to eliminate lag, but I can't vouch for it since I never tried it. I remember reading something about the new Sony RP LCDs also having some sort of faster scaling mode. Until I've actually tried them out though, I am definitely sticking to my XRGB-2+/VGA to Component adapter combo!

Definitely let us know when you have a chance to test this solution out. I think you'll be quite satisfied with the results ;)

Don't VGA boxes forego de-interlacing 480i material in favor of just line-doubling it?
Forgive me if I misused any A/V lingo. I'm not an A/V expert, just a gamer and an A/V hobbyist.

Regardless if what VGA boxes do (whether it's deinterlacing or line-doubling), they do it with no lag which is the #1 most important factor to any serious gamer who plays games that require distinct timing. Quality is #2, and the XRGB-2+ is undoubtedly the best quality 480i-->480p product (in terms of picture quality) available for video games.

Does lag occur in 480P games as well? I only play Halo 2 on my Pansonic Plasma 50PHD7UY which I go through component... I do have a VGA input.

Are you saying if I switch to the VGA input...it will reduce lag?

Thanks,

Chris B.

Does lag occur in 480P games as well? I only play Halo 2 on my Pansonic Plasma 50PHD7UY which I go through component... I do have a VGA input.

Are you saying if I switch to the VGA input...it will reduce lag?

Thanks,

Chris B.

Your Plasma HDTV of course has to scale the 480p signal to its native resolution, but HDTVs can basically do this process instantly.

All that the VGA solution is doing is allowing a 480P signal to be sent to the HDTV rather than a 480i signal on consoles/games that CAN'T send a 480p signal. Therefore, any games ALREADY running in progressive scan should NEVER experience lag. This solution is aimed at anyone who plays Playstation 2 and older console systems on their HDTVs! Gamecube and X-Box are 95% unaffected as most of their games already output a 480p signal when using Component video cables :cool:

thanks bro. I am assuming all new Xbox 360 games will be in progressive scan so I wont have to worry about it. Can wait for Xbox 360.

Peace,

Chris B.

Halo 2 is supposed to have a lag issue that can be fixed with a patch. I don't know, I'm not an expert.

Fubar, how did you get ahold of your XRGB-2+? Acem said he got his for about half the retail price. I'm not looking to pay $200+ since most of these come out of Japan. I'd try one as soon as I can get one for a reasonable price.

btw, you can't route audio through an iScan plus. Only has composite and S-video inputs, no audios. Worked fine on my VGA monitor, but not on my DLP.

Cush

Halo 2 is supposed to have a lag issue that can be fixed with a patch. I don't know, I'm not an expert.

Fubar, how did you get ahold of your XRGB-2+? Acem said he got his for about half the retail price. I'm not looking to pay $200+ since most of these come out of Japan. I'd try one as soon as I can get one for a reasonable price.

btw, you can't route audio through an iScan plus. Only has composite and S-video inputs, no audios. Worked fine on my VGA monitor, but not on my DLP.

Cush
I live in Japan right now, so I just got my XRGB-2+ from my local camera shop. Wasn't cheap, cost was about 23,000 yen (about $207 by current exchange rates) but I got it brand new. I could have found a cheaper used one if I travelled to Akihabara (huge electronics district) but after factoring in travel costs it was still cheaper just to buy it locally :) Plus, I was eager to try it out!

Anyway, if you just keep an eye on Ebay I'm sure you can find something cheaper. Google it just to make sure though, I think I saw a couple of US-based sites selling it for around $170, which is already cheaper than the $209 that National Console Support wants for it.

Keep in mind that you could also try a cheaper solution such as the Hori Upscan Converter 2 (since you need to fix PS2 lag specifically, like myself)--however, it may or may not work to full satisfaction, it's just theory right now. The XRGB-2+ is pretty much guaranteed to work if you're willing to take mine and acem77's word for it.

Also, I am quite shocked about the iScan Plus having no audio passthrough! Anyway, I don't recall what the problem you had with your iScan was, but please give the XRGB-2+ a try.

Also, for a laugh and some good memories, check out this thread at HDTV Arcade. (http://www.hdtvarcade.com/hdtvforum/viewtopic.php?t=700&highlight=) Maybe we should have put some more thought into your suggestion! =P

Am I the only one that doesn't notice any lag playing Halo 2 on my Plasma?

This sounds great. I'm seeing a very slight input lag on my new Samsung LCD TV (I even see lag using a Wavebird Wireless controller though) but what annoys me more is the artifacting I see with older 2D games when something flashes rapidly. With Super Metroid in particular, certain objects don't flicker at all, they're just permanently interlaced. (they don't flash but have black lines through them) I would assume this box sorts that out, as it's the de-interlacing process on the TV that causes it.

However, I've only got my PS2 and Super Famicom connected up with SCART cables through a switch box. (Gamecube is component, but I would pick up another RGB SCART for it) I know I could just buy component cables for the PS2, but RGB SCART is the best I can get out of the SFC.

Is it easy to convert EuroSCART to Japanese RGB? The interface is the same, but is it just as easy as changing the pin-out or not? (or can you buy pre-made cables anywhere?)

Spelosi, if you're playing in 480p (and if you're not, you should be!) then there is no lag introduced. It's the de-interlacing process that causes it. If you're playing in interlaced, then it may just be that you don't notice it. It's very slight on newer sets.

I play Halo 2 on my Panasonic Plasma 50PHD7UY through component and I dont experience any lag. At least I do not think I do. It seems to play great even online.

Peace,

Chris B.

Spelosi, if you're playing in 480p (and if you're not, you should be!) then there is no lag introduced. It's the de-interlacing process that causes it. If you're playing in interlaced, then it may just be that you don't notice it. It's very slight on newer sets.
Exactly.


Is it easy to convert EuroSCART to Japanese RGB? The interface is the same, but is it just as easy as changing the pin-out or not? (or can you buy pre-made cables anywhere?)
From what I've read, you CAN modify your Euro SCART cable to Japanese RGB, you just have to change the pin-out like you said. The best site to go would be GameSX (http://www.gamesx.com/), they have pinouts and modification guides to get RGB out of any system that can possibly output such a signal.

Unfortunately, pre-made Japanese RGB cables are pretty much impossible to find. There were two different ones commercially manufactured for PS2 (actually, for PS1)--one by Gametech and one by Cybergadget--but they stopped producing them after it was discovered that you could play DVDs without copy protection on the first model PS2s in combination with a Japanese RGB cable.

I DID find this US-Based company selling this cable, (http://www.takingame.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=122_92&products_id=1199&osCsid=973881ca9acd27a5f44f5990ea4aeac2) which is supposedly a single Japanese RGB cable for all the major systems, but I don't know if you can trust it since it doesn't really specify that it is Japanese RGB standard. It's only $10.00 if you don't mind taking the risk, though. Maybe you should ask the Webmaster.


This sounds great. I'm seeing a very slight input lag on my new Samsung LCD TV (I even see lag using a Wavebird Wireless controller though) but what annoys me more is the artifacting I see with older 2D games when something flashes rapidly. With Super Metroid in particular, certain objects don't flicker at all, they're just permanently interlaced. (they don't flash but have black lines through them) I would assume this box sorts that out, as it's the de-interlacing process on the TV that causes it.
That's really strange! The lag you are experiencing is indeed the lag which is universally present in HDTVs, but I've never heard of an interlacing artifact like that. I think you're right though, the XRGB-2+ will probably fix your problems.

Be sure and let us know the results if you decide to try this out!

Thanks, I think I will go for this, just have to wait until I get paid.

As I've got everything going into an AV switch, I wasn't specifically meaning SCART > J RGB for the consoles, just for the connecting cable between the switch and TV.

While I do have a VGA input on my TV, I'd prefer to put it into a component switch. (as I hook up my Powerbook a lot) Are there any converters that do the job without introducing any extra lag, and at a reasonable price?

Thanks, I think I will go for this, just have to wait until I get paid.

As I've got everything going into an AV switch, I wasn't specifically meaning SCART > J RGB for the consoles, just for the connecting cable between the switch and TV.

While I do have a VGA input on my TV, I'd prefer to put it into a component switch. (as I hook up my Powerbook a lot) Are there any converters that do the job without introducing any extra lag, and at a reasonable price?
Ah, I see, sorry for the misunderstanding.

Well, as far as American companies there are now four options: for an excellent description and comparison of the four adapters check out this page at Keohi HDTV. (http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/interfaces/rgbtocomponenttranscoder.html)

The four adapters are:

Audio Authority 9A60 (https://www.audioauthority.com/indexh.php)
Key Digital KD-VTCA3 / Clear Color 3 (http://keydigital.com/Itemdesc.asp?CartId={4BB9A976-5D0D-47F5-8B2B-9186179016EVERESTBD}&ic=KDVTCA3&Tp=)
RCA VHDC300 (http://www.rca.com/product/viewdetail/0,2588,PI45063-CI205,00.html)
RF Systems VR-23 (http://www.rfsystems.com/vr-2.htm)

If you want to use component, the CHEAPEST adapter out there is the Audio Authority 9A60, which you can probably pick up used on Ebay for less than $100.

The RCA, however, might be easier to find since Circuit City (a US electronics store) carries it. The retail is about the same.

I don't think you should have additional lag problems with any of these units. However, the Audio Authority has been the most tried and tested, and many people have been satisfied with it so I'd recommend that one.

Thanks, I'm actually in the UK, but I'll look into that Audio Authority box.

Just done some extensive testing, and I can't see a spot of lag introduced on my set actually. (using 2D games where it counts too) It's a Samsung LE32R41B (that's the UK model code - it's the latest 32" LCD they do, and almost identical to the US one, aside from the fact it has more inputs)

However, there is some blur introduced (combing really) and artifacts caused by de-interlacing very fast flickering stuff, so I think I might still go for it. There is some very slight bleeding on the SCART sockets on this set too, which should also be eliminated with this.

Wow, yeah, I was on the right track huh? I just can't order all these systems that cost at least $100 to try 'em out. Returning them's not a free or convenient option. I'm glad someone else out there can confirm with the XRGB2+. If I'd hit on that one a year ago, this problem would be over.

I concentrated on PS2, but I'd like to be able to play Saturn, NES, SNES, etc., as well. Right now the S-Video out on my receiver routes to another TV. In this case, I'd just route it through the XRGB-2+ and then to the DLP.

The problem with the iScan was that it didn't save any time. Must've taken just as long to deinterlace as the TV because there was no discernable difference with it hooked up.

Cush

Wow, yeah, I was on the right track huh? I just can't order all these systems that cost at least $100 to try 'em out. Returning them's not a free or convenient option. I'm glad someone else out there can confirm with the XRGB2+. If I'd hit on that one a year ago, this problem would be over.

I concentrated on PS2, but I'd like to be able to play Saturn, NES, SNES, etc., as well. Right now the S-Video out on my receiver routes to another TV. In this case, I'd just route it through the XRGB-2+ and then to the DLP.

The problem with the iScan was that it didn't save any time. Must've taken just as long to deinterlace as the TV because there was no discernable difference with it hooked up.

Cush

Although I can't make any guarantees, I am pretty confident that the XRGB-2+ will fix your lag problem. I have not tried on a DLP of course, so you'll have to trust acem77's testimonial (although on paper everything checks out).

Logically, if nothing lags at 480p then sending a 480p signal to your TV with zero lag (which I believe the XRGB-2 does), your issues will be solved.

It also might be a cool side-project to build Japanese RGB cables for your old game systems (Saturn, SNES, etc)--juding from acem77's screenshots, the classics look truly excellent when run through the XRGB-2+ with RGB cables!

Cheers, and good luck. I just want all of our problems to be solved :)

Hmm, well I just got my XRGB2+ today, and have been a bit disappointed, in more ways than one.

Firstly, tried hooking up my Gamecube through the JRGB input with the included component > jrgb adapter - no picture. I did mod a SCART cable to JRGB, but decided against trying it if the included one didn't work.

Tried hooking it up to the "D1" input (I assume that's D-Sub? love the connector anyway; wish it was used here) with the included adapter and it worked. I've tried hooking up my Super Famicom with a JRGB cable and it wouldn't work either, so it looks like the input is dead. :( While I'm not going to be using it, I tried out composite, and it gets an image for a second then cuts out, so I guess there's something wrong with it too. Emailed lik-sang about it now.

When I was troubleshooting the JRGB input, I hooked up the box to my old computer monitor. After getting it actually working, I was surprised at how good it looked and how well it worked on it. Even 50Hz stuff was working perfectly. (I thought it was supposed to be NTSC only)

However, once I brought it through and hooked it up to my LCD I was in for another disappointment. First off, it seem the VGA input is technically a "PC" input on it, and doesn't work with 50Hz, as PCs generally only output 60Hz+. Every other input on it apparently supports 50hz though.

I had planned on also hooking up TV to it (the main 50Hz source) but I guess I can make do with interlaced for now. (HDTV still hasn't come over here, and I won't be able to afford it when it does) At least I'll get to keep aspect ratio switching that way.

The biggest problem though, is that on my LCD, vertical lines are not straight. They're constantly "flickering" / "wobbling" like there's some kind of interference. I have tried to sort it via the TV's "image lock" options, and the one on the box itself, but can't get it sorted. Perhaps I will if I spend more time, but there's 149 positions on the XRGB2+ and 2x 100 on the TV. (coarse / fine) That's a lot of combinations I could have to go through. :eek:

1024x768 wasn't working on the LCD either; came up as "unsupported mode" but it looked much worse than 640x480 did anyway. (on the CRT) So I'm not really bothered about that. (it was very pixellated; the TV does a better job scaling)

On a more positive note, it does remove the slight blur I was getting on this TV, and the picture is improved in general. It's not on par with proper 480p, but does look nice. I don't see a lag improvement, because there wasn't any to remove. However this means that it's not adding any, and should definitely sort out any problems anyone has.

I assume I'll have to send it back to HK to get a replacement :mad: but I think I'll just replace my SCART switch with a component one and buy component cables for my consoles now. (with the SFC using the JRGB input)

I may have sounded quite negative, but if I can get a stable image on the LCD, then it will have been worth every penny, because it does look very good. (the flickering isn't that noticeable ingame though, mainly in menus etc)

-snip-

I see. As acem77 said on HDTV Arcade forums, there does indeed seem to be a flickering problem on fixed pixel displays. Sorry you got a dud, that's quite disconcerting! I hope you can get it sorted out.

It does however seem to do lag removal job quite well. Let us know if you can get a stable image on your LCD!

Thanks for typing this up. I was considering skipping out on a DLP because of this. I guess I'll just use an older TV to play games in 480i

Thanks so much for the suggestions on this thread...

After I went (Samsung) DLP in December, I got rid of the PS2 due to the lag problem. After reading this thread, I hooked up a slim PS2 to my Samsung 5085 via the Upscan Converter 2 (I was not willing to pay the $200 for the other solution), and VGA cables purchased at Fry's (6 ft plus 6ft extension). Except for some slight "flowing" vertical lines that are very visible when looking at a zebra pattern, but not very noticable otherwise, the picture is great (luckily, there aren't many PS2 games dealing with zebras), and I haven't observed any lag...

I had to do quite a bit of adjustment on the brightness and the contrast (via THX setup on Finding Nemo), but now the picture looks really good. Setting the TV to "expand" seems to maintain the seemingly correct picture aspect ratio for normal games (slight border on top and bottom). Setting the TV to Wide PC maintains the seemingly correct picture aspect ratio for widescreen games.

So, wrapping up:

Pros:
A use for the 5085's VGA input
"Relatively" inexpensive solution
Surprisingly good picture quality
Makes the PS2 usable on a Samsung DLP

Cons:
Although the picture is beautiful, it's not perfect (some "flowing" vertical lines) sometime adds a bit of jitter

I have a 50 inch RCA DLP and I have noticeable lag on ps2. I noticed it on the pitch and swing meters on MVP 2005. I have tried connecting through composite and component, and with Progressive Scan (which may have slightly improved the lag). I have read the threads, but I want to make sure I am reading correctly. What should I buy to fix this. If possible, I don't want to spend hundreds (USA). Please help me out.

Thanks,

Justin

I have the PS2 and my pc connected to a 50 in SOny LCD rear projection. No lag at all with either.

I have a 50 inch RCA DLP and I have noticeable lag on ps2. I noticed it on the pitch and swing meters on MVP 2005. I have tried connecting through composite and component, and with Progressive Scan (which may have slightly improved the lag). I have read the threads, but I want to make sure I am reading correctly. What should I buy to fix this. If possible, I don't want to spend hundreds (USA). Please help me out.

Thanks,

Justin

You should not have any lag whatsoever when using Progressive Scan. The only thing this solution does is feed a Progressive Scan signal to your TV where normally the TV would have to line-double the signal. If your TV lags when being fed a progressive signal, this solution will not do anything differently. If your TV is lagging with a Progressive Scan signal, you are either imagining things or you should get a different TV for games.

You should not have any lag whatsoever when using Progressive Scan. The only thing this solution does is feed a Progressive Scan signal to your TV where normally the TV would have to line-double the signal. If your TV lags when being fed a progressive signal, this solution will not do anything differently. If your TV is lagging with a Progressive Scan signal, you are either imagining things or you should get a different TV for games.

After looking up how to do so, I started MVP 2005 on ps2 with Progressive Scan (by holding triagle and X, it gave me the option). The graphics were noticeably worse, but it was definitely different. The lag was still there. It is not a huge lag, but it is definitely there. When using the pitching meter, in order to stop the meter at the right point (the middle), I have to aim and press about an inch too soon. I guess it is playable, but I seem to be late on all of my swings too. I am not imagining the delay, I have played the game MANY times on my normal tube TV. If anyone has a solution or workaround, I appreciate the help. Also, if anyone knows why the graphics would be worse on Progressive Scan, let me know.

i also put mvp 2005 in progressive mode by holding all four buttons in at the start-up. it offers me to switch into progessive and i say yes. lag still present.

My replacement arrived today. Posted this on another board I visit:

More impressions. :)

I was going to order JRGB cables from someone, but am having issues with Paypal right now, so I can't pay him. So, I found an old SCART switch I had that wasn't amplified and decided to give it a shot. Rewired it properly so now I can just plug European SCART cables into it, and it's JRGB coming out. As it's not amplified however, there's some signal loss. After the success of this though, I may just mod the other cables myself.

The PS2 was working through this setup, but the Super Famicom wasn't. It just said "No Signal" Was talking to a friend and he told me you have to remove the capacitors/resistors from the RGB cable to use it. I thought this was strange, as it was working on my TV perfectly before, but I twisted them to short them out, bypassing them, (couldn't be bothered soldering again) and it did the trick. :)

I had been seeing a slightly wavy picture on the top of SFC games before, and this seems to have removed that, so I guess that's what was causing it.

2D games look stunning. There's not much more to say than that, lol. This is the best 2D you'll get out of an old system, virtually identical to what I got emulating the games and outputting over VGA. This gets rid of 99% of interlacing artifacts, which justifies the cost alone for me.

Colour is a bit trickier to set up, I'm still tweaking, but it's nice having so much control.

3D games look nice, and are a fair improvement, but are not on par with 480p. Better than 480i though, and as mentioned previously, if your television has lag, this should remove it.
It does make aliasing more noticeable though.

Overall I'd say this was definitely worth the money, and if you're serious about your retro games, you should pick one up.

I still haven't been able to get the image lock perfect, but it's barely noticeable when you're actually playing a game. The menus on it still look awful, but this is just how the menus are, it's not the image lock settings, as I had previously thought.

Only thing is that I have a few PS2 games that support 60Hz, but it's a pain having to do it "blind" Metal Slug 3 takes about 30 seconds, you then have to hit "english" wait 3/4, hit down and X to choose 60, then up and X to accept.

I've read just about every thread on the "gaming lag" issue.

Clear something up for me: Is this just an issue on Sammy DLPs or is it for any LCD/DLP/Plasma? Or is it just worse on the Sammy DLPs?

I'm on the cusp of purchasing a HDTV dedicated to gaming, though almost exclusively 480p+ gaming. Is this pretty much a non-issue for me?

The Sammy DLP (42") is my favorite but I worry about the gaming lag stories. There are no issues in 480p and beyond right?

Another TV I'm looking at is the Panasonic 44" LCD (PT44LCX65). What's the differences in gaming on a DLP vs. LCD? Does the LCD suffer some of the gaming lag as well?

Buying a TV is never easy :)

i've got a samsung 5067 and there is gaming lag. i have an xbox and ps2 connected by component cables. it doesnt matter if the game is running at 480p or 720p, the lag is there. Just try MVP 2005 on Xbox w/ 720p enabled. it is real easy to notice the lag with the pitching meter. if you don't play precise timing sensitive games, it isnt going to matter, but games like MVP, Hot Shots, Taiko Drum Master are going to be tough, if not impossible to play.

thanks for the feedback, nocalbruin. That shows the lag is not limited to 480i sources, but also 480p and 720p, basically everything.

The 5067 is the HLR series and it seems the lag has gotten worse. For the HLP models, I'm fairly certain there's no lag above 480i. Oddly enough, the two 480p+ games that come up as having lag are Halo 2 and MVP 2005. I haven't heard of any other.

Cush

i've got a samsung 5067 and there is gaming lag. i have an xbox and ps2 connected by component cables. it doesnt matter if the game is running at 480p or 720p, the lag is there. Just try MVP 2005 on Xbox w/ 720p enabled. it is real easy to notice the lag with the pitching meter. if you don't play precise timing sensitive games, it isnt going to matter, but games like MVP, Hot Shots, Taiko Drum Master are going to be tough, if not impossible to play.

I second what he says. I had a HLR5667W and had the same problem with MVP 2005. After much frustration and verbally arguing with other people in this forum concerning their opinion that is was impossible to have lag on a 720p game (what a joke), I swapped my Sammy for a 42" Panasonic plasma. Although I am not doing any gaming on it while I am in the 100 hour break in period, I did do a quick test of MVP 2005 and it plays perfectly.

I've read just about every thread on the "gaming lag" issue.

Clear something up for me: Is this just an issue on Sammy DLPs or is it for any LCD/DLP/Plasma? Or is it just worse on the Sammy DLPs?

I'm on the cusp of purchasing a HDTV dedicated to gaming, though almost exclusively 480p+ gaming. Is this pretty much a non-issue for me?

The Sammy DLP (42") is my favorite but I worry about the gaming lag stories. There are no issues in 480p and beyond right?

Another TV I'm looking at is the Panasonic 44" LCD (PT44LCX65). What's the differences in gaming on a DLP vs. LCD? Does the LCD suffer some of the gaming lag as well?

Buying a TV is never easy :)

I tested my Xbox on the 61" version of that Panasonic before getting my plasma. The lag was not an issue. But I didn't like the PQ nearly as well as the Sammy DLP and it did not seem to handle fast motion (either games or sporting events) quite as well as the Samsung. If plasma was not an option, I would probably have gotten a Toshiba DLP. It has a nice PQ and did not have a lag when I tested it at Best Buy with my Xbox.

i have the samsung HL-P5685W and have had problems with mvp 05 also. i solved the problem by dropping the resolution setting on the xbox. that solved the pitching meter issue.

i never had any problems with halo 2. in fact i just finished it on normal, and if there had been any lag present that never would have happened because i barely finished it on easy when it came out in november (yeah i suck at halo 2 :rolleyes: ).

i have been playing espn mlb 2k5 and haven't had any problems with that on the pitching meters or the batting. i also had ncaa 06 (got rid of it because it sucked, too many dropped passes :mad: ) but the kicking meter was perfect with no lag there.

maybe i have been lucky, but i have yet to see any real problems outside of mvp 05.

What's the issue with the new samsung 1080p DLPs. I've read that people are experiencing lag with this TV as well.

Is there a fix to this?

What's the issue with the new samsung 1080p DLPs. I've read that people are experiencing lag with this TV as well.

Is there a fix to this?

All HDTVs have lag. Read the thread. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the 1080p DLPs lagged even worse than other HDTVs seeing as how it has to line double from 1080i to 1080p (and the TV probably does this process slowly to make it look good). This generation of HDTVs that displays 1080p but doesn't take a 1080p input are definitely going to be the bastard child of HDTVs. In less than a year, these sets will be ancient history.

I think the fix is not to buy a 1080p TV that doesn't even take a 1080p input =P

Thanks for pointing this out fubar - you can't even do computer gaming properly on a 1080p set that only takes in 1080i input anyways. :)

To be fair, the new HLR is known to accept 1080p over VGA, but not HDMI/DVI. Digital connection would be better though. I'd wait for a year.

My XRGB-2+was delivered today (from lik-sang), I had ordered it to eliminate lag on 480i sources on my Samsung HLP4663. I can confirm that it works as advertised, the lag is gone.

Using acem77's settings for both the HLP and the XRGB, the picture is improved on my PS2, no flickering, and more importantly, no lag.


acem77's settings for the HLP:

Under pc>coarse 831
pc>fine 10


On the XRGB2+
dtc_typ user

usr_tdc 829

My XRGB-2+was delivered today (from lik-sang), I had ordered it to eliminate lag on 480i sources on my Samsung HLP4663. I can confirm that it works as advertised, the lag is gone.

Using acem77's settings for both the HLP and the XRGB, the picture is improved on my PS2, no flickering, and more importantly, no lag.


acem77's settings for the HLP:

Under pc>coarse 831
pc>fine 10


On the XRGB2+
dtc_typ user

usr_tdc 829

Excellent. :) I don't suppose the coarse setting is on a bar? I ask because my Samsung LCD only gives me 0-100 for the setting numbers, rather than the actual ones, and was wondering whereabouts it'd be. (eg left third of it, right, middle etc) I still need to get mine perfect. :)

This is really positive feedback guys. I'm definitely going to have to scrape together some cash and pick this thing up.

Cush

Excellent. :) I don't suppose the coarse setting is on a bar? I ask because my Samsung LCD only gives me 0-100 for the setting numbers, rather than the actual ones, and was wondering whereabouts it'd be. (eg left third of it, right, middle etc) I still need to get mine perfect. :)

Yeah, there is a bar, it's about a foot wide on my set. My coarse setting is eight inches from the left. I guess it would look like this:


0 (--------/----) 100


This is really positive feedback guys. I'm definitely going to have to scrape together some cash and pick this thing up.

Cush

I don't own any of the PS2 games you've mentioned, like HSG, but I have tested it with Gradius V and Castlevania SotN (both using PS2-Component), and several SNES games, including Super Metroid and Street Fighter 2 (both with S-Video). I experienced noticable lag with these games before, they were unplayable. Now with the XRGB, the lag is gone and the picture is somewhat improved, particularly using the component-to-D terminal hook up.

Mini-Review

The instruction manual is in japanese, so it didn;t help, but all the on-screen options are in english (with heavy use of acronyms). It includes component adapters for the D-terminal and scart(?) inputs on the front. It has standard composite and S-video inputs on the back. There is a VGA input on the back, so you can use it as pass-through when using it with a computer. Also included: a VGA cable, several audio adapters, and a small remote.

The XRGB is small, depth is almost the same as a DVD case and is about as thick as an average hard cover book. The unit is light, I don't think it can take much abuse.

The remote is a "credit card" type and is a total piece of s***. It barely works, the power button will turn the unit on, but it would not turn it off. I have a learning remote, so I programmed all the XRGB functions to that. I have a feeling the stock remote won't last for long. Fortunately, you don't need the remote to work the unit, the buttons on the front cover all your needs.

I'm very pleased with the XRGB. I bought it to eliminate lag, so picture improvements are the icing on the cake. My only concern is build quality, but if you
don't rough it up,it should be fine. The cost may seem steep, but if you play a lot of classic games, it's definitely worth it.

How does 480i fare on the new Samsung LNR LCD series?

Yeah, there is a bar, it's about a foot wide on my set. My coarse setting is eight inches from the left. I guess it would look like this:


0 (--------/----) 100
Thanks, I'll use that as a starting point for fine-tuning. :)

Something I've just noticed with my XRGB2+ is that it seems to clip colours at higher levels. You mentioned quite a lot of games that I've been using to test it. Something I noticed in particular is that in Super Metroid, in the first section, some of the finer detail in the blue areas is lost. For example, when you fight Ridley, the floor is solid blue, but you can see the detail that should be there as the room fades in/out, or if you connect to the television directly.

I've tried playing around with my settings, and nothing I do seems to fix this, but I was wondering if you experienced the same thing? I've got it connected up with some JRGB cables I modified myself.

It's annoying, but is a rare occurrence; that's really the only place I've noticed it. Does this happen for you?

Even if it does, the pros of using this box still vastly outweigh the cons.

How does 480i fare on the new Samsung LNR LCD series?
I've got the UK 32" model - there's no lag whatsoever, but there is a noticeable quality difference when using this box. It removes the interlacing blur and everything is much sharper. :)

The 1024x768 upscaling doesn't work, but as I mentioned earlier, it's not a big deal as it looks worse anyway. Unfortunately it doesn't support 50Hz, but VGA isn't supposed to anyway.

Any of the impressions I've posted above are based on using it with this set.

Thanks, I'll use that as a starting point for fine-tuning. :)

Something I've just noticed with my XRGB2+ is that it seems to clip colours at higher levels. You mentioned quite a lot of games that I've been using to test it. Something I noticed in particular is that in Super Metroid, in the first section, some of the finer detail in the blue areas is lost. For example, when you fight Ridley, the floor is solid blue, but you can see the detail that should be there as the room fades in/out, or if you connect to the television directly.

I've tried playing around with my settings, and nothing I do seems to fix this, but I was wondering if you experienced the same thing? I've got it connected up with some JRGB cables I modified myself.

It's annoying, but is a rare occurrence; that's really the only place I've noticed it. Does this happen for you?

Even if it does, the pros of using this box still vastly outweigh the cons.




To be honest, I wasn't even looking for that. I haven't played Super Metroid in several years, so I don't think I would have noticed it right away. I was mainly using SM to test for image quality and lag on S-video and composite sources. I will try to compare it sometime this weekend, to see if I have the color-fading problem.

There are specific VGA boxes for the dreamcast. Is there a prefered one to remove lag on DLP sets?

Anyone just want to say they had success with the one they purchased?

There are no real "VGA" boxes for the Dreamcast. All the VGA boxes do is tell the Dreamcast to output a 640x480 VGA signal because the console, not the box is capable of doing that. Any VGA box for the Dreamcast will not lag. In fact, that's what the VGA port on my HLP is currently used for.

Cush

Bump--added some very valuable new information to this post today.

Is it only the SAMSUNG DLP's that have this strange 480i lag issue, or is this quite a prevalent problems across the boards?

Is it only the SAMSUNG DLP's that have this strange 480i lag issue, or is this quite a prevalent problems across the boards?

Almost every HDTV exhibits this 480i lag issue. It is easier to see on the Samsung DLPs because they have the WORST lag, but 95%+ of current HDTVs lag on 480i material right now. When I purchased my last HDTV in the states (a Sony 30XBR910) I tested EVERY Direct-View HDTV in the store and every one of them lagged, I bought the one that lagged the least (the Sony) but it still lags by about 5 or 6 frames (5/60 or 6/60 of a second).

I posted this in a private message to fubarduck, but I think it's worth mentioning here. Regarding solution A, I can find no information on the O2 mod or the Qoob mod that states they can run any game in 480p. Be nice if they do; too bad they don't also cover older systems like the XRGB2+. Still, it's a "cleaner" solution without a big rearrangement of hookups and a VGA input.

Cush

I've been looking more at some different forums and now I can't find any clear statement that the O2 mod indeed will force 480p on all games. At first, I took somebody's word for it, but I'm afraid they may have been mistaken.

Well, regardless, I'll keep everyone posted of what comes up.

Maybe this will help (http://forum.o2mod.com/viewtopic.php?t=180&sid=300cd5a7909ae545f677a5901a57a6dc) to clear up the confusion about the chip and progressive scan mode. to me, it seems like it works according to those people. if it does, this is the way i will go. i've installed several modchips for myself and friends, so count me in!

Edit: check this out also.....link (http://forum.o2mod.com/viewtopic.php?t=1055&sid=300cd5a7909ae545f677a5901a57a6dc)

fubarduck,

I really appreciate people like you who take the time to help out in any way they can but could I ask a small favor? If you wouldn't mind could you put a bold lin in your first post in this topic about there NOT being a solution for 480p and up games? I say this because I've already had people pointing me to this thread(topic) as to why I should buy the new Samsung 1080p. "The gaming problem has been solved" they say and point me here. The gaming problem isn't even close to being solved. Converting 480i to 480p to help on some HDTVs is a minute part of the problem that effects a very small portion of gamers. Most gamers are looking at Xbox, 360, PS3 and further into the future. This solution does nothing for any of them. I hope this isn't coming across wrong because it isn't meant to be at all. I just know that some people are reading the headline and skimming over what you posted and then thinking, "COOL, I won't have lag with a new Sammy if I want one." As you have stated throughout the thread, this isn't the case. The Sammys x7 and even worse the 1080p (x8) models are horrible for lag no matter what you are feeding them. This should be clear for all gamers so someone doesn't end up very upset when they get their new Sammy home and think they can eliminate the lag on Halo 2. I've even seen others speculating that the new systems (360 and PS3) won't have the problem. Why on earth wouldn't they have the problem? Even if you feed these TVs 1080i input you will have lag!
Sorry for the rant man. It's just that people read half of something and go away with the wrong idea so I thought you might adjust your first post in this topic to clarify a bit better. Keep up the good work. People like you are why you consistantly see hundreds of people logged into the message boards.

Maybe this will help (http://forum.o2mod.com/viewtopic.php?t=180&sid=300cd5a7909ae545f677a5901a57a6dc) to clear up the confusion about the chip and progressive scan mode. to me, it seems like it works according to those people. if it does, this is the way i will go. i've installed several modchips for myself and friends, so count me in!

Edit: check this out also.....link (http://forum.o2mod.com/viewtopic.php?t=1055&sid=300cd5a7909ae545f677a5901a57a6dc)

entermymatrix, you are confused and mistaken.

The O2 chip does indeed NOT force 480p on all games, the thread you pointed out simply pointed out that progressive scan STILL WORKS AS NORMAL with the mod chip installed ON GAMES THAT SUPPORT IT ALREADY, which is a select few. The whole point of a "force 480p" option on a mod chip would be to get the games that WEREN'T already in progressive scan to change into a progressive scan signal.

The chip's VGA mode also only supports a select few games, as not all PS2 games were programmed with support for VGA resolutions.

Well,

Thanks to this fine forum I learned that basically I can't enjoy Madden 06 on my Samsung set. This stinks for lack of a more redeeming word.

I bought it from Crutchfield less than 30 days ago and I am now contemplating returning it. Seems like this is on all DLP's. Any word on the brand new and expensive Sony? I would hate to be without a tv for a week or two only to have it on the Sony as well.

So basically I just want to be clear on this. Nothing can be done to remedy this? I am having someone coming to calibrate the set. No fixes?

This really really blows. My set is great other than this issue and I only notice it on kicking, nothing else.

H E L P

I can't believe Samsung doesnt have a fix for this.

Please feel free to email me -

X-Box Game (720p) --> Samsung displays the image directly --> No lag.
X-Box 360 Game (720p) --> Samsung displays the image directly --> No lag.

How do you know for certain that in the scenarios above a Samsung DLP would not try to perform some type of picture enhancement (color / sharpness), or put the signal through the DNIe pipeline that would still result in some form of lag, even on native resolutions??

I really *really* want to believe you, because after buying a Samsung DLP (HLR5656), the ability to rule people on Halo 2 has gone down hill, especially in precise movements, like sniper mode (almost unplayable now).

I hope you are right, because I'm hoping that xbox360 doesn't have this problem, but if I were a gambling man, I'd put my money that we will still see lag problems, even on the native 720p resolution with xbox360. :(

Halo at 480p (XBox) and MVP 2005 at 720p (XBox) are the only two games that aren't 480i that I've heard lag. Take that for what you will. My PC desktop at 720p works fine.

Cush

How do you know for certain that in the scenarios above a Samsung DLP would not try to perform some type of picture enhancement (color / sharpness), or put the signal through the DNIe pipeline that would still result in some form of lag, even on native resolutions??


Unfortunately, you may be right, but we have no way of knowing since Samsung doesn't reveal the processing delay times. However, I think you can probably rest assured that the big problem of noticeable lag is coming from the scaling of resolutions and not from native image processing.

As I have stated in this and other threads countless times, go to your local HDTV dealer and TEST the games that you want to play on the HDTV you are interested in buying. Even if you have to make a long trip to do this, it's better than making such an expensive gamble with a blind Internet purchase.

Finally, if you are interested in buying an HDTV with the sole intent of playing a next-gen system (such as 360 or PS3) I would definitely wait until you actually own the console before buying the HDTV. We don't even know if there is going to be a standard resolution for all games on these new consoles yet! It is pretty certain that X-Box 360 will be displaying all games at 720p but that still has yet to be fully confirmed IIRC.

Add me to the list of frustrated people who own a samsung dlp. I played halo2 at my brother in law's house last night and couldn't believe the difference...it literally was a different game without the lag. Sniping was once again a joy. If lag is still prevalent at 720p my tv is gone, one way or another.

One thing I will add is I am having my set professionally calibrated in two weeks, and one of the things he already mentioned he's doing is disabling the DNIE. When I get a better explanation on why this is I will pass it along.

One thing I will add is I am having my set professionally calibrated in two weeks, and one of the things he already mentioned he's doing is disabling the DNIE. When I get a better explanation on why this is I will pass it along.


Can you let us know if calibration fixes the lag problem?

Fubarduck, you aren't entirely correct with your statement that avoiding the TV's scaler is the solution to lag problems. The following items also add lag time:

Analog to Digital Converter
De-Interlacer / Interlacer

Display Type Specifics:
CRT: Electron Beam Travel
LCD and Plasma: Crystal Charge Time
DLP: Mirror Movement Time

Until a game console comes with a purely digital output there is no way to bypass the A/D Converter.

The interlacer/de-interlacer can be bypassed by keeping the consoles output (progressive or interlaced) the same as your set's native display.

And of course you hit on setting the console's resolution output to most closely match that of your television to bypass the scaler or decrease it's processes. I just thought people should be aware that while your article is quite informative and is correct the information presented, however the scaler is not the only, or even the main source of lag.

-snip-
And of course you hit on setting the console's resolution output to most closely match that of your television to bypass the scaler or decrease it's processes. I just thought people should be aware that while your article is quite informative and is correct the information presented, however the scaler is not the only, or even the main source of lag.

Sorry if I didn't make it clearer before, but I'm not an A/V expert but a gamer who dabbles in A/V. Unfortunately there are not enough people who are experts in both, hence the amount of ignorance present about this problem.

However, on the TV's that I have dealt with by actual testing by playing video games that I know exact timings for, outputting a 480p signal has happened to always fix that problem for me.

I'm sure what you say is true, as some people claim to own LCDs with some wacky native resolution that doesn't lag on any source at all. That is also why I emphasized that people ought to go to the store and test products before they buy them. Since we are all so uneducated on the subject, our only choice really is to make sure the products work before we buy them. It's quite unfortunate that we even HAVE to do that, but sadly there is no other choice. It's not so bad since most of us here only buy a new TV every few years.

Everything technically adds lag time. You might as well factor in the time the controller's button makes contact with the circuit board, down the wire, through the console, out to the display and on the screen.

The tested result seems to be that source signals 480p and up eliminate lag to the point where people don't notice and that's what's important.

Cush

Ok, I have read quite a bit about this lag issue. I have a recently purchased Samsung HLR4667W. I am very happy with the TV with the exception of the lag! I have a modified xbox (X3 mod chip) and I play lots of console emulation games on it.

If I push the info button on the samsung remote, it tells the current resolution. it is usually 720 x 480 @ 60 hz for Halo 2 and XBMC. It does not say if it is progressive scan or interlaced. Is that apparent from this resolution?

The mod chip as the option of using VGA out with an adapter I believe. My tv has a VGA input. Would using this method eliminate the lag problem? Thanks for any help :)

Ok, I have read quite a bit about this lag issue. I have a recently purchased Samsung HLR4667W. I am very happy with the TV with the exception of the lag! I have a modified xbox (X3 mod chip) and I play lots of console emulation games on it.

If I push the info button on the samsung remote, it tells the current resolution. it is usually 720 x 480 @ 60 hz for Halo 2 and XBMC. It does not say if it is progressive scan or interlaced. Is that apparent from this resolution?

The mod chip as the option of using VGA out with an adapter I believe. My tv has a VGA input. Would using this method eliminate the lag problem? Thanks for any help :)

720 x 480 @ 60 hz tells you nothing about whether the 480 is progressive or interlaced, which is what's important.

First, go to your dashboard and go to settings. If 480p is set to "on" in your HD Video settings, and Halo 2 still lags, then VGA is not going to change anything--you will simply be getting 480p via VGA instead of via Component Video. The infamously slow Samsung DLP will still be happy to bog down your video game to unplayable levels =)

As for your emulators, I believe that a few of the emulators on X-Box allow you to play them in 720p resolution! You may be able to solve lag on a few specific emulators this way by enabling that setting from within the emulator.

However, it is pretty much agreed upon that Samsung DLPs lag with 480p material as well as 480i, so if you're really interested in playing a lot of games then you should invest in a different HDTV.

However, it is pretty much agreed upon that Samsung DLPs lag with 480p material as well as 480i, so if you're really interested in playing a lot of games then you should invest in a different HDTV.

Which ones besides Halo 2? I think this is a Halo 2 issue. Of course, Halo 2 is a popular game so that could also be why reports of this game lagging are frequent. I'll try Mario Golf for the GameCube. That should settle my opinion on 480p.

As for your Samsung HDTV, yes, it is telling you whether or not it's progressive; it's just not readily apparent.

720x480 @ 60Hz is progressive because the info button will display 720x480i @ 60Hz if it's interlaced. At least the HLPs do.

Cush

Which ones besides Halo 2? I think this is a Halo 2 issue. Of course, Halo 2 is a popular game so that could also be why reports of this game lagging are frequent.

Cush
Precisely. I played Halo 2 in 480p lag free on my Sony XBR910 so it is not an issue with the game. Halo 2 is simply a game that MANY people play that requires split second timing, and like a fighting game, it's ridiculously easy to notice when there is the slightest bit of lag. Although I can't verify it, I'm almost certain that this is a TV-related problem.

People that are experiencing lag may want to contact local repair shops or local custom installers. We've had problems with Tivo's and lag on some Plasma's, with the LG's for example, we use a service remote to change a delay/processing setting to help eliminate it.

My laptop has a vga output. i am going to try running a game on it and plugging it into the vga input on my tv and see if it fixes the problem. Sounds like it should (at least help some) according to the first post in this thread.

Just wanted to update in the event that my findings help someone else :)

After using the vga output from my laptop, I did not experience any lag whatsoever from using the vga out and playing games. So I figured I would use vga output from my xbox. However, the vga out option on my modchip is still in development and the results from others were not to positive. Lots of problems with sync-on-green.

So I decided against that route and just replaced all of my emulator programs with ones that display in 720x480p and that seemed to be the solution. Now I can play all of my xbox games lag free.

There are no real "VGA" boxes for the Dreamcast. All the VGA boxes do is tell the Dreamcast to output a 640x480 VGA signal because the console, not the box is capable of doing that. Any VGA box for the Dreamcast will not lag. In fact, that's what the VGA port on my HLP is currently used for.

Cush

This is the opposite of what I have heard. My understanding was the design of the Dreamcast had more of a natural VGA output anyway so the VGA box was truly VGA which is why there was never anything good released for the Xbox or PS2.

I don't know if this makes any sense but in a nutshell I understood that it was true VGA.

Add me to the list of frustrated people who own a samsung dlp. I played halo2 at my brother in law's house last night and couldn't believe the difference...it literally was a different game without the lag. Sniping was once again a joy. If lag is still prevalent at 720p my tv is gone, one way or another.

How do you know it's not lag from online play? Have you tried single player sniping And it was that much difference?
I really don't know how you can quantify this lag issue. I personally have never seen it on my samsung, it seems to respond quite normally actually.
I would think you would have to have a regular TV set up right next to it and do a quick switch to see.

This is the opposite of what I have heard. My understanding was the design of the Dreamcast had more of a natural VGA output anyway so the VGA box was truly VGA which is why there was never anything good released for the Xbox or PS2.

I don't know if this makes any sense but in a nutshell I understood that it was true VGA.
You just rephrased exactly what Cush originally said.

VGA Boxes for Dreamcast were simply VGA cables that told the Dreamcast to output VGA, which it was capable of doing natively (much like the X-Box 360 is able to do).

How do you know it's not lag from online play? Have you tried single player sniping And it was that much difference?
I really don't know how you can quantify this lag issue. I personally have never seen it on my samsung, it seems to respond quite normally actually.
I would think you would have to have a regular TV set up right next to it and do a quick switch to see.

Scrubsr1 didn't mention anything about whether or not he was playing online, but it would be silly to make a post like that if it were online as we all know all online gameplay experiences more lag than a TV will ever introduce. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt and assumed that he was referring to offline play. If he responds, maybe he can clear it up for us.


I really don't know how you can quantify this lag issue. I personally have never seen it on my samsung, it seems to respond quite normally actually.
I would think you would have to have a regular TV set up right next to it and do a quick switch to see.
I've never messed with Samsung DLPs, but there are still a ton of people that claim the set lags at 480p. Although the lag might not be as bad as playing 480i material on the set, I can only assume that the people who post here are largely unmistaken. Obviously, how well you can see lag in a set depends on overall reaction time and many of us can see lag in a set without doing any switching to a regular TV.

There are also a lot of people that claim that they are playing their games lag-free when they play online, which obviously is untrue. HDTV lag is much harder to see than online lag, but it's still definitely there which is why we're all here and why this thread is here.

Sorry for the confusion but the lag is significantly present both on and off line. This tv was all I ever played halo 2 on until I played it at my brother in laws house. Since then I had some friends over for a system link party so I could do some back to back comparisons with a regular crt based tv. Going from my dlp to the other set confirmed the fact that this hdtv(hlp-5063) presents significant lag, even at 480p. I was also quite suprised to find that halo1 lags just as bad halo2.

I've yet to experiment with games that support 720p, hopefully this "lag" issue will be resolved at the native resolution of the set.

Sorry for the confusion but the lag is significantly present both on and off line. This tv was all I ever played halo 2 on until I played it at my brother in laws house. Since then I had some friends over for a system link party so I could do some back to back comparisons with a regular crt based tv. Going from my dlp to the other set confirmed the fact that this hdtv(hlp-5063) presents significant lag, even at 480p. I was also quite suprised to find that halo1 lags just as bad halo2.

I've yet to experiment with games that support 720p, hopefully this "lag" issue will be resolved at the native resolution of the set.

And there you have it. Obviously if you are only playing on a laggy set, you'll get used to the lag after a while but in the end you're still playing with lag. Hope you try a CRT out one day so you can see how much lag you've been playing with, Dean.

One thing I will add is I am having my set professionally calibrated in two weeks, and one of the things he already mentioned he's doing is disabling the DNIE. When I get a better explanation on why this is I will pass it along.
Can we PLEASE get an update on this? Admins, could you email this guy? I need to know because my hl-r5067 lags on everything.

Hey, everyone! I purchased the 5087w a few weeks ago and its being delivered to my new apartment on the 22nd - VERY excited! The reason I'm writing is to inquire about gaming lag. I'm a huge gamer - I will probably use this set 90% for gaming. I own a PS2, Gamecube, Xbox and soon a XBOX360 (stupid pre-order). I'm even going to hook up my PC every once in a while in play some CS:S.

I've read horror stories about Samsung DLPs and gaming today. It's kind of scaring me actually. The xx67 models seem to be the ones suffering the most. There was a couple people in here that stated they had no gaming lag except for on a couple PS2 games? I would prefer no lag at all and might move my money over to a Toshiba 52HMX95 if Best Buy carries them.

To sum up, is there anybody here that actually plays games on a daily basis on their 5087w and can describe the gaming lag they may or may not be experiencing? It would really dispel my worries, because right now I'm really worried.

Oh, I'll be playing games in 480i (PS2, Gamecube, XBOX), 480p(Xbox and some PS2 games) and eventually 720p on Xbox360.

PLEASE HELP ! :)

Wow, this thread still lives.

First, calibrating your DLP will not fix the issue. My service tech lives in my neighborhood and every time he hears something that may alleviate the delay, he stops by my place to try it. Unless something has changed with recent models, this is a no-go. But hey, professionally calibrating your set should be worth it for the visual quality. I'd like to have mine done some day.

As for the Dreamcast, yeah, in short, the Dreamcast console does the work of producing a VGA signal. The VGA boxes do no conversion; they tell the console to output VGA.

As for Halo 2, I've heard the bug with lagging shows at 480P and widescreen. Was this Sony TV widescreen as well? I don't own an XBox so I haven't done my own tests. I still maintain that from the vast library of XBox games, the same two always seem to be problematic.

I did test Mario Golf on my GameCube at 480i versus 480p. The swing meter is akin to Hot Shots Golf. I have no problems making good swings at 480p. I still maintain 480p is "good enough" to reduce lag to unnoticable amounts.

Rorktor, there are numerous posts about the lag issue. Lag will always be present at standard definition signals at 480i. The lag is so minute, you will not notice on most games. I can play fast-paced games like I-Ninja and Jak and Daxter without having a problem. However, on games that require precise timing (sports swing meters, rhythm games), the lag is immediate noticeable. This is for all Samsung DLP models to my knowledge although some claim the pedestal models have no such problem.

One more month of paying off my TV, then I can buy an XRGB-2+...:)

Cush

would a 1000x780 scale xbox 360 games with no lag?

I'm making a purchasing decision and am leaning towards a DLP set.

I called Samsung support (I'm looking at an HL-R5067) and they said that "game mode" fixes lag issues with any input. They also said that if I'm experiencing lag, that it would be a servicable problem. I haven't seen much in the thread here about game mode on the Samsung HLRxx67's. Comments?

My other consideration is a Toshiba 52HM95. Does anyone have lag issues with these Toshiba units? Do they have a game mode? Does it help?

Is there anything in the 50" range that's under $2,500 without much lag? How about the Sony LCD, KDF-E50A10?

I plan to use 480p when available, but I'm sure I'll end up using 480i at times. How bad is the lag with a dance pad playing DDR?

As far as I know, the HLRs don't fix the lag issue. A Samsung tech told me on the phone that "Game Mode" turns off Digital Noise Reduction and DNIe (which you could do in the standard menus for the HLP models). He said there was no difference. It is certainly not a serviceable problem. I've been on them since 9/2004 when I bought my TV.

No, you can't play DDR on a Samsung DLP; you will notice the lag.

Cush

Has anyone confirmed whether or not boxes like the XRGB-2+ fix the lag on the HLRxx67W's? I was set on getting a 5667W, but if the lag is really a problem (the wife and I are DDR fans), that's out the window. But if a VGA box fixes it...

The first post in this thread states the XRGB2+ is a solution and also cites a user who has done this with a Samsung DLP. Since the lag is the same from the HLM to the HLR, I would say it's a good bet. Can't promise you until I buy one myself. Do the HLRs have a VGA port? I can't remember; I have an HLP. If I recall, the HLRs have a VGA port and 2 HDMI ports; it's the DVI port they lack.

Cush

I just came back from my local best buy and I really had my heart set on purchasing the samsung HLR5067W until I hooked up my 360 on it. When I first hooked it up and changed the settings to HD, I thought I was in TV/Video game heaven. The blades on the menu worked perfectly and I noticed no lag.....until I started playing games and demos. First, I played Halo 2. Even though I downloaded and installed the patch for 720p support it still lagged when trying to aim at a moving target. Next, I played perfect dark against 15 bots. No matter what I did, its like when I would try to target one of the bots it just didn't respond fast enough to actually hit them. I even went into the visual options of PD and I changed it to DLP but all this did was improve the color and not the lag. Lastly, I played the NBA live 06 and Madden 06 demos and this was just unacceptable. Whether trying to make a juke move on the field or trying a quick ball fake on the court, the lag was hard not to notice. While this tv has superior picture quality and a really decent price tag. It just can't handle fast moving/time based games. So I'm going to go back tomorrow and demo some more DLP sets. I'll let you know what I find

Just to be absolutely sure, you hit the "Info" button on your DLP and it says 1280x720@60Hz or whatever it's supposed to display. You're describing the problems associated with 480i inputs. I don't have a 360, but I run my computer desktop (right now even) at 720p without any issues at all. I think keyboard and mouse input would be easily noticed.

Cush

If the tv displays 720p natively and they are showing HD channels in the store I would assume that is what the tv is set to. I used the component cables that came with my system and it had lag. I don't know what else to tell you. When I go back I'll let you know what the info button displays, but I don't expect it to show anything that will change the lag that I have experienced

You don't "set" the TV to anything in particular. You feed it a signal. To ensure your game system is sending a 720p signal, you hit Info on the TV remote and see what signal it's receiving. Just a means of verifying you're seeing what you expect to be seeing.

Cush

First, I played Halo 2. Even though I downloaded and installed the patch for 720p support it still lagged when trying to aim at a moving target.

It's almost like the xbox360 is introducing another level of lag in it's upconversion of original 480i/480p games to the 720p output. And since you connected the xbox360 with component to the Samsung HDTV and ran it at 720p, this is taking the Samsung 480i scalar out of play.

I just don't know anymore. If using an xbox360 (720p output of an old 480i/480p game) with ANY TV EXCEPT A SAMSUNG, does it still have lag?

Well, I went to Circuit City a day ago and I tried the Samsung HLR4266W with just my regular xbox (composite cables only not component) and Halo 2 and I really couldn't notice any lag. The real test will be if it still performs like this when I bring my 360. Heres hoping.

I picked up a sammy HLR4667 about a week ago. I have my xbox hooked up through component. Halo/Halo 2 no issues (or i dont notice them not much of a fps fan on consoles). Forza Motorsports seems to have a slight lag in steering. I'll have to pick up a golf game to see if its just me or if the set actually lags.

I had some pretty bad lag on Sammy 42" DLP so I returned the tv. All I pretty much play is Halo 2, and it was horrible. I was getting owned everytime. Im now looking into Sonys 32" Bravia XBR and Pannys 37" Plasma.

First post updated 3/6/2006 with lots of new information and more user-friendly guide.

So yeah, wow is this whole subject (and the process of selecting an HDTV) is starting to give me a headache. I'm a hardcore gamer. Hard. Core. I'm looking to move to HDTV now that I (finally) acquired an Xbox 360, and because I recently moved across the country and ditched my old 480i-only 25" Samsung CRT in the process of moving, since I couldn't afford a moving van and had to pack my stuff in my little Hyundai, and am (relatively) flush with cash now that I got my tax return (about 1k) and have my car paid off and can afford to save for a decent TV above that price if I'm patient.

I figure if I'm going to be buying a new TV, I might as well go with something HD for my new Xbox 360, and so that all my old Xbox/GCN/PS2 games (can, if they support it) look spiffy. Problem is, I'm pretty much screwed. My first choice was the purchase of a Viewsonic N3250W. I actually thought LCD tvs were a good idea for gaming. Must have been some leftover drugs in my system from back in the day, because what a mess that was. I should have gone to the store and checked the 480i quality. I've subsequently discovered that LCDs make 480i look like crap. Hell, this one made 480p look like crap. Colors were awful. Black levels were mediocre. Ghosting. Abysmal upconversion. The list goes on. I did my homework before purchase, but apparently I got an "F" on it.

So now, I'm wiser. But I still have a dilemma. See, now I know not to buy LCD. The problem is that I can't find a solution to everything. I'm looking at DLP now, because the price is right, but there's that whole lag issue, and given the obnoxious shortage of GCN component cables (and their subsequent scalping on Ebay for, last check, 70+ bucks), I'm going to be stuck playing any new GCN titles (Zelda Twilight Princess, anyone?) in 480i for probably a while. Plus the discontinuation of the XRGB2 (and price of it) means further headaches.

So now I'm leaning towards CRT. Good old CRT. Trouble is, apparently there's *still* lag in even HD CRTs with 480i signals. My current top choice is the Samsung TX-R3079WH. Outside of the possibility of distortion around the edges (supposedly fixable with the service menu for those of us bold enough to attempt such a feat...), it looks like it suits my needs as far as features and image quality go. Even has HDMI inputs. Trouble is, there's still that question of lag. I will be playing games in 480i, both old and new (Devil May Cry 3, for instance, is 480i only, and I haven't gotten a chance to do it justice ever since the SE came out, as I've lacked a TV that makes it look as pretty as it deserves to be), as well as 720p (how's that look on HD-CRTs btw? Acceptable or better compared to DLP?) for newer games like my Xbox360 stuff.

I'd like to go with a DLP for the large screen size and small form factor, though that whole bulb thing is annoying. I definitely don't want to wait years for SED (which is perpetually delayed, and possibly soon to be scrapped), Plasma is an option, but man is it expensive and I haven't heard a single thing in this entire thread regarding lag on a Plasma, let alone anything anywhere about how it makes 480i look compared to CRTs. One of the most frustrating things about the LCD was how it made 480i (and even 480p, to a lesser degree) look "muddy" and overly pixellated. Maybe that's just because 480i on a CRT features the poor mans' antialiasing...but honestly, I find that I prefer that vs how it looks on LCD. Maybe that's just because LCD is an overall inferior technology to every other kind of TV type out there. Jury's out on that one.

So, first up, is anyone still alive around here? Second, any advice is greatly appreciated. I know that I should go to a store and test games for my self (believe me, I will, but I'm afraid Best Buy will kick me out after I spend hours testing a ton of games, because I am that picky), but any suggestions as to ideas that don't involve tacking 300+ dollars for an upconverter on an already expensive purchase would be helpful. As it stands, the best I can come up with currently is to just have 2 TVs, one DLP/HDCRT for new school, and one oldschool CRT (thankfully they're cheap, I can get a 27" w/components for around 200-250), but that doesn't address the issue of hooking up a Home Theater and wanting to play games (including 480i ones) in surround sound...so it still isn't really a solution.

Btw Fubarduck, thank you for writing such a detailed FAQ on gaming lag on HDTVs. I knew it was there but never the extent of it, and I was close to purchasing a DLP TV until I read your faq. The whole "game mode" thing does sound like it helps, but I'm still worried about it, and will have to spot test some rhythm games (Guitar Hero!) so that I can get a feel for how acceptable it is.

God forbid I should try to play Ninja Gaiden Black on a TV that lags...

I recently purchased a 62" Mitsubishi DLP (WD-62628). I only play Madden 06 on XBOX and Guitar Hero on PS2 ... the lag is significant on Madden, kicking is ridiculous and it lags on the rest of the game as well, ableit less noticeable.

Spending $3800 on a TV that cannot play video games perfectly has been causing me lots of stress. I tried both the composite and the component cables - same results. Guitar hero is the same, lag ruins the game (if you haven't played this game, you should check it out ... it's a blast). I called Microsoft to trouble shoot, they said it was the TV and I concurred since it worked fine on my old 36" non-HD tv. I called Mitsubishi to troubleshoot and they claimed to have never heard of this problem. I just wanted someone to say they knew what I was talking about. This led me to an internet search and this thread. I've never heard of this lag problem. I called the electronics store and they are more than willing to work with me on an exchange.

However, I have no idea which TV to purchase. I'm looking for the best quality 60 or 62" HDTV for watching tv and playing video games. From what I've read on this thread, DLP is out. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, then I'll take my XBOX into the store with me. Any other pertinent information would be helpful.

dfed

Which connections and what resolution settings are you using? You may have a little better luck with 480p->720p than 480i->720p, at least. I know some X-Box games run at 720p, too... but I don't know whether Madden can or not off hand.

dfed

Which connections and what resolution settings are you using? You may have a little better luck with 480p->720p than 480i->720p, at least. I know some X-Box games run at 720p, too... but I don't know whether Madden can or not off hand.

rtype,

I'm currently using the component connections (component 2) on my tv.

I have not adjusted the settings and honestly, don't know how. I heard that Madden runs at 720p but am not sure. Is there a way to adjust the settings on the tv and/or the xbox? I saw 3 settings on the xbox settings menu for the type of TV ... adjusting to the 'wide screen' setting made the video much smaller and worse, so we have it set to normal now. I'm planning to return/exchange the TV this week.

Well, my parents own a 50 in. Phillips Ambilight Plasma, and I have seen the same thing happen there.

Even with component cables and the Gamecube on Pscan, there is a slight delay in the gameplay, rendering any game almost unplayable. Smash, Metroid, Zelda, Mario, you name it. It sucks because it was going to be the perfect TV to play on with my friends. I'm under the impression that the TV is doing the upscaling of the resolution, thus causing the lag. I've gone through this thread and some people have said that a VGA box would eliminate the lag...yet I've heard other places that it doesn't work. I don't want to buy something like that online, in case it doesn't work and I'd have to return it. Man this sucks. I tried talking to Bozon on IGN to see if he knew anything about it and he said he's heard of it and would drop it by Gerry, the IGN Gear editor. I haven't heard from him in a while so that's probably a dead end.

Man I really want this to work. If anyone has any bright ideas let me know.

Well, my parents own a 50 in. Phillips Ambilight Plasma, and I have seen the same thing happen there.

Even with component cables and the Gamecube on Pscan, there is a slight delay in the gameplay, rendering any game almost unplayable. Smash, Metroid, Zelda, Mario, you name it. It sucks because it was going to be the perfect TV to play on with my friends. I'm under the impression that the TV is doing the upscaling of the resolution, thus causing the lag. I've gone through this thread and some people have said that a VGA box would eliminate the lag...yet I've heard other places that it doesn't work. I don't want to buy something like that online, in case it doesn't work and I'd have to return it. Man this sucks. I tried talking to Bozon on IGN to see if he knew anything about it and he said he's heard of it and would drop it by Gerry, the IGN Gear editor. I haven't heard from him in a while so that's probably a dead end.

Man I really want this to work. If anyone has any bright ideas let me know.

Hey, how did you get in contact with Bozon personally?

Anyway, as for your question, there is nothing you can do. A VGA box, if there is even one available for GameCube, will do nothing. No matter what, the best a GameCube can output is 480p. Your set is probably something like 720p, so it will always have to upscale the GameCube's output, and there will always be a degree of lag. It sucks, I know, and that's why I only game on 480i CRTs or my 480p plasma, but even on your HD set, the picture would look pretty crappy upscaled. Sure, it's disappointing, but there is nothing that can be done, as a solid fact. It can't be changed: there has to be lag.

Wow, I think I drilled that in pretty far...

But anyway, people who care about this lag, or even notice it, are few and far between, like us, so to the mass masses, it doesn't even matter. :(

Well I had PM'd Bozon about it and he luckily PM'd me back (he's pretty active on the IGN boards). I guess if it's pointless to try and find a solution then I shouldn't worry about it...still sucks though. It's too bad I can't get it fixed with firmware or something.

Well I had PM'd Bozon about it and he luckily PM'd me back (he's pretty active on the IGN boards). I guess if it's pointless to try and find a solution then I shouldn't worry about it...still sucks though. It's too bad I can't get it fixed with firmware or something.

Hey there Jamin,

There are a couple of products coming up that I recommend you keep an eye on. When I have time, I'll update the FAQ with some more info about them.

Releasing in Japan on July 14th, 2006 is Micomsoft's long-anticipated XRGB-3 upscaling unit. The device has several game inputs, and has not only a VGA but also a DVI output. It supports three resolutions (1024×768/1280×1024/1600×1200) for output and also fully supports 480i, 1080i, and 720p resolutions on the D-Terminal (Component) and RGB inputs. It also has a USB port for flash upgrades via PC that will be downloadable directly from Micomsoft. I wouldn't be surprised to see some hacked firmwares down the line that support normal HDTV resolutions on the DVI output.

While the device is not designed specifically for HDTV, most LCDs/Plasmas have a resolution very close to one of those three. I'll be purchasing one myself with a detailed review soon afterwards provided I can afford one next month when the device launches.

Basically, this would allow you to completely or almost completely bypass your HDTV's internal scaler and will likely give you the ability to play your Gamecube (or any other system) completely lag-free.

Check NCSX.com in a couple of weeks and I imagine they'll take pre-orders for the XRGB-3. It will probably set you back at least $350, however, as the device retails for about that much in Japan.


The second device you might want to look out for is Splitfish's upcoming HDFX product. While the device claims to only support Playstation 2, it may possibly (hopefully) have inputs with support for other systems as well. The HDFX claims that it will upscale the output of a Playstation 2 to 480p, 720p, 1080i, or 1080p. It will also do so for a measly $30 MSRP. The HDFX launches on August 31, 2006 in the US.


While the HDFX will be had very cheaply and may "get the job done", I would definitely count on the XRGB-3 to be the best bet. It's an expensive product, but you get what you pay for and if Micomsoft puts the same quality that they put into designing the previous XRGB units, you'll have a device that you can use for years to come.

350? Yikes! I don't know if I want to game on it that badly, haha. I'm only here during the summer anyhow. Hopefully I can find some Ebayers who aren't satisfied with it at some point. The second option sounds like it'll probably be a piece...I couldn't possibly expect a $30 thing to do the job that the XRB does. I'll definitely keep up with it though. I look forward to hearing your review. I imagine we'll probably have our plasma for years to come, but I'm sure when the day comes that it kicks the bucket, I'll probably be pissed that I bought it, you know? Thanks a lot though, I appreciate it.

At school I'm pretty good though. I have my VGA cable for my PC monitor so that usually works out fine (though it sucks having to swtich the cables all the time...maybe a box might not be a bad idea at some point). It's too bad my VGA cable will be obsolete once the Wii comes out but it's been a great way to play games in my dorm thus far (no TV in my dorm).

OK, I have a 60" Sony LCoS SXRD and get the lag in default modes of PS2 gaming. The TV outputs as high as 1080i, and then upconverts to its native 1080P image. Once I switch to Game Mode, the graphic quality drops but the inputs are perfect. I test on Beatmania and Tekken 5, so I know about 1/60th of a second inputs to test lag.

Eventually I connected my PS2 via component, switched the hardware to component mode (before a game loads), and in Tekken 5, you can chage the settings to Progressive mode (540P output it says) and 16x9 mode. I turned off most of the TVs extra enhancemnts (i.e. high Digital Texture, etc.) and the game now plays perfect withOUT Game Mode turned on and it looks fantastic. I mostly play Tekken, so this issue is resolved for my primary game.

I need to tweak it for Beatmania... if I get a good combo of settings I'll report here. For now, Game Mode works well, buut the image is washed out. We'll see. I'm now less worried about the PS3. If I can tweak the output like I did for Tekken 5, then my set should look great playing next gen games at a close to perfect refresh rate.

http://gear.ign.com/articles/712/712352p1.html

^^A recent 2-page article on IGN's Gear site. Mainly addresses the problem and recommendations for what people should do if they're shopping for HDTVs. Explains a couple potential workarounds like the XRGB-2 and upcoming XRGB-3. Kind of wraps everything up in laymen's terms.

http://gear.ign.com/articles/712/712352p1.html

^^A recent 2-page article on IGN's Gear site. Mainly addresses the problem and recommendations for what people should do if they're shopping for HDTVs. Explains a couple potential workarounds like the XRGB-2 and upcoming XRGB-3. Kind of wraps everything up in laymen's terms.

Good find. This article is actually accurate unlike a lot of previous attempts to tackle the issue. Gets my seal of approval this time :cool:

I'm glad we finally got the ball rolling on this issue. Maybe in a couple of years when I buy a new HDTV, it will actually play all of my video games correctly! Until then, I'll be hanging on to my humble Sony 30XBR910. It would be nice if more HDTVs could support both 480p and 1080i like this one does.

Finally, a hardware solution has been pioneered by intrepid and committed gamers on the internet that specifically targets the lag produced in up-converting 480i signals.

Thanks, I've always thought of myself as pretty intrepid ^_^

Anyway, for those interested, the Japanese release date of the XRGB-3 is July 14, 2006. Price: 38,640 yen (approx. $343.00). Check your favorite game import site soon to pick up this sure-to-be hot item.

I just got a 42" plasma. If I play games for an extended period of time, would they cause burn in on the screen? Any one with experience on this subject please let me know

I just got a 42" plasma. If I play games for an extended period of time, would they cause burn in on the screen? Any one with experience on this subject please let me know

This is not the right thread for that.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/search.php?

Does anyone know if a video processor like HD Leeza can convert from 480p/720p to 1080p fast enough to eliminate video lag?

I bought a 1080p Sammy before I knew better. :( So I need to convert my signal to 1080p to bypass my Sammy's video processing right?

Anyone have experience with the HLS4666W? It is a 720p hdtv and has a game mode on it also and was wondering how the delay would be with an xbox 480p game with game mode enabled.

Any help is appreciated.

Does anyone know if a video processor like HD Leeza can convert from 480p/720p to 1080p fast enough to eliminate video lag?

I bought a 1080p Sammy before I knew better. :( So I need to convert my signal to 1080p to bypass my Sammy's video processing right?


I don’t know which Samsung 1080P model you purchased, but I have an HL-R6168. I’ve run several tests to measure lag on my set. I found playing Halo2 live over component inputs to have unacceptable lag at any input resolution. For my set “Game mode” only works with a 480i input (as stated in the owners manual), which is too low for me.
One test that I ran was to connect an old Xbox and a 360 together using “Xbox system link”. Each Xbox had its own monitor. I then displayed the same scene on each TV and photographed them. The scene I used was a fast moving train from the Halo2 “Terminal” map. From the pictures you can clearly see the progress of the train on each display. The CRT always shows the train moving farther down the track. Using the VGA input on the DLP, significantly reduced the lag but did not completely eliminate it. I find the VGA input acceptable but I’m also not the best player. I’ve read that the Samsung HLS series has acceptable lag over component inputs. It would be very interesting to have someone run a similar experiment to the one I ran with an HLS TV.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphoto.php/photo/21142/cat/508
http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphoto.php/photo/21143/cat/508

vandu,

I have a HL-R6178W and although I haven't measured it, I am sure I have similar lag to your TV. I could tell when I played Geometry Wars that it is ALOT harder to get a high score than it should have been. After I put "game mode" on and switched to 480i I doubled my highest score on my first attempt.

Did you test the lag with a 1080p signal? What was the signal you were sending through vga? I was hoping that if I sent a 1080p signal to my TV the lag would go away.


I also wanted to add that if you have a racing game that displays milliseconds we could get a better measure of the lag from the screenshots.

dmp1ce,
I was using a 1280x720 resolution for the VGA input.
In order to run system link you need to have the same game loaded in each Xbox. I don’t have two copies of a racing game but I would welcome someone else trying it.

In September of 2005 I bought a JVC LCD and opened an X-box live account, and for these past months I've been going crazy trying to figure out :confused: why I'm not doing nearly as well as expected in my game of choice; Halo 2. When I had played my friends off line and always on an old fashioned CRT I was winning about 90% of the time. I just chalked it up to the fact that on-line I'm playing gamers around the entire world and not just my small group of friends.

So I came across this thread, (thank you Fubarduck), and realized what was going on every time I play Halo2 on my Hi-def LCD 1366x768. I came to the photos that "vandu" had posted comparing DLP to standard CRT and immediately repeated the same experiment this time with my LCD. With the CRT receiveng 480i from X-box vs. LCD recieving 720P signal from XBOX360, 2 linked x-boxes, same vantage point waitin' for the train to take a snap-shot.

My results of the "vandu" experiment were very similair. By estimating the speed of the train and the distance differential between the train's location in the LCD vs. it's position on the CRT I calculated I have a lag of approximately 150 to 200 milliseconds. Vandu has a lag of about 200-250 milliseconds (DLP via component, CRT via VGA). His VGA on both looks less than 150 milliseconds. For my test I used component on LCD and regular RCA on the CRT.

I have since gone back to playing on a CRT and am now playing to my potential, and have become significantly saner now realizing that I have been playing with a handi-cap for some time and it explains my lackluster record.

Now I miss the awesome picture of my high-def monitor, but at least the gun shoots exactly when I pull the trigger. It makes a world of difference, just a tiny fraction of a second.

So I'm curious to see more posts, especially from people with LCDs on what kind of a difference any external devices and cables have made, or not made. I mean how much faster can one of these devices process video than what the display can do internally?

-Banzai-

Xbox 360 games dont lag at all for me but halo 2 does. Any one have any luck fixing the lag in halo 2?

Xbox 360 games dont lag at all for me but halo 2 does. Any one have any luck fixing the lag in halo 2?


Play on a CRT, or another non-lagging TV. 360 games DO in fact lag, which is why I play GRAW on my PC LCD monitor rather than my Samung DLP. Once you swallow the fact that the TV of your dreams can't yet do what you want it to do, you learn to move on. :o

Play on a CRT, or another non-lagging TV. 360 games DO in fact lag, which is why I play GRAW on my PC LCD monitor rather than my Samung DLP. Once you swallow the fact that the TV of your dreams can't yet do what you want it to do, you learn to move on. :o

Or you buy a plasma... :)

I'll never go back to DLP for video games.

Maybe it's just me, but i bought a Mitsubishi wd- 62628 the otherday the quality on games looks pretty off. Ive mostly been playing Halo and Halo 2 and everything looks grainy and blurry.

Im pretty sure its just the TV just stretching the damn image out. So i might just go and return the TV. But even so, are there any TV's out there that are large and offer quality picture?

I just got back from Best Buy where I tested Guitar Hero on the PS2 on the Samsung 56" 720p HLS series. The exact model is HLS5686WX/X. And it worked GREAT, with game mode on.

I tried it out with Game Mode off first, in part because I had actually never witnessed this phenomenon before and the Best Buy employees didn't believe me. And there was a delay. Not as pronounced as one would expect, but certainly a problem in twitchy games. Even in an average game I'd probably notice eventually. So I stopped in mid-song, switched on game mode, restarted the song, and it was gone! The visuals seemed no different at all to me, albeit Guitar Hero isn't a very graphically intense game and is already pretty pixellated on such a large screen. But the response was virtually identical to the response on my CRT at home. I tried just hitting buttons, as opposed to playing it, and the lights came up right away. I also beat my high score on Bark At The Moon (on medium mode I admit) that I had previously set earlier when trying it out at home on the CRT to get my recollections accurate.

So I bought the TV. So I have not actually gotten it home and tried all sorts of material on it, but I figured if I can get 5 stars on a regular song (Iron Man) and beat my high score on Bark At The Moon, it means Game Mode works. Thank god!

I just got back from Best Buy where I tested Guitar Hero on the PS2 on the Samsung 56" 720p HLS series. The exact model is HLS5686WX/X. And it worked GREAT, with game mode on.

So I bought the TV. So I have not actually gotten it home and tried all sorts of material on it, but I figured if I can get 5 stars on a regular song (Iron Man) and beat my high score on Bark At The Moon, it means Game Mode works. Thank god!
Glad to hear you found a winner! The HLS series is the new 2006 model, correct?

Do you know if you can enable the game mode in 480p/720p, or only in 480i?

I'd love to find out if the new Samsung models have a perfect game mode, so please indulge us with as much info as possible about your new HDTV. :cool:

(Fubarduck, thank you for the informative post and worthwhile thread!)

I have a Samsung LN-S4051D LCD HDTV (mine was manufactured in May). There is certainly lag present, Game Mode or not. Unless I got a lemon, Samsung's Game Mode seems to help their DLPs more than their LCDs.

I have a (slim) PS2 hooked up via component (as well as a GC on s-video). I've tried Madden, MVP 2005, and Hot Shots Golf. The lag makes the power/accuracy meters very tough to gauge. HSG is unplayable (at the higher levels requiring spot-on accuracy), and Madden and MVP are so-so only because you can use sliders to make it more forgivable (kicking accuracy in Madden and pitch meter accuracy in MVP). I play MVP 2005 in 480p and it seems no different than when it's 480i.

Game Mode (or the potentially enhancement-free Movie Mode) doesn't seem to make a difference in lag. On or off, the meters tend to stop later around the same point. I called Samsung tech support and a second-level tech told me Game Mode should help, but maybe not enough for me to notice. Lag is less than one second, probably less than .5 sec. I wish I could scientifically test it myself.

So, in short, Samsung's Game Mode (at least for my 4051D LCD) does not appear to reduce lag much for current/last-gen games, progressive or not. That's my experience. If others have different experiences (for Sammy LCDs), I'd like to hear them so I can call Samsung again and request a tech to come out.

-Jamie

Well the game mode was designed along with the 360, so that would be where I would expect it to make any signifigant difference at all.

Well the game mode was designed along with the 360, so that would be where I would expect it to make any signifigant difference at all.

This is true. However, I have read that Samsung used the Xbox360 logo on their packaging, but mine did not have any mention of it (one person even had a plain white sticker covering the Xbox360 stuff). The website does mention MS engineers I believe, but not X360. Also, the game mode on the DLPs apparently helps as much with 480i/p stuff than 720p (X360) stuff.

I wouldn't be surprised if the game mode picture was optimized for the way the 360 displays games, but I'm curious as to how the mode itself might increase response time on 720p 360 games and not on 480i/p stuff (or some upscaled 480p games like Halo 2).

Can anyone tell me if my RCA P61937 will lag because that company said it can display 1080i but it has no component inputs so plez reply

jedwards93,

I bought the LN-S4051D too. After I got it home, I heard this was one of the TVs hit by HDTV Gaming Lag via a recent feature on IGN. Since then I've been somewhat paranoid, testing all my game machines one by one. To date, I have not had a single problem with it. I have had no perceivable gaming lag whatsoever.

I picked up my set on Sun July 16 2006 in Canada. The manufacture date says June 2006, so your set is only a month older than mine. I wonder if that was enough time for them to change the spec, and fix the lag issues?

As I said before, I tested virtually every game machine I own with as many different settings as I could dream up. I didn't list every single setting I tried on the TV (I tried lots), but I did list the resolution and aspect ration for each. Here's what I tested:

Gamecube - Monster S-Video Cables[/B]
Soul Calibur 2 - 480i at 16:9
Resident Evil 4 - 480i at 4:3 and 16:9

PS2 - Sony Component Cables
Gran Turismo 4 - 480i at 4:3, 480p and 1080i at 16:9
Shadow of the Colossus - 480p at 16:9
God of War - 480i at 4:3, and 480p at 16:9
GTA San Andreas - 480i at 4:3 and 16:9
I did lots of testing with GTA:SA. I went beyond just the component cables, and tested with the composite cables as well. I flipped back and forth between my new Samsung LCD, and my old Sony Wega CRT playing the dancing mini-game. I *think* there's a tiny, miniscule bit of lag when I use the composite cables on the new HDTV, however I'm going bug-eyed from all the recent testing. I'm not sure if it's nerves, or what. I DO know that the component cables have no problems at all. If there was any lag, the dancing mini-game would be virtually impossible to play let alone get a virtually perfect score, which I did almost the entire time.
God of War is another game that should be very susceptible to the game lag due to all the mini games, but again I had no problems there.
Oh, and I did all my testing on the PS2 with Game Mode OFF.

Xbox360 - MS Component Cables
Jade Empire - 480p at 16:9
KOTOR II - 480p at 16:9
I'm not even going to mention the Xbox360 games played at HDTV resolutions. That worked perfectly as expected. I also played with the MS VGA cables. Again, no differences. The only difference with the VGA cables is an overall difference in quality. The VGA cables on the 360 blur the graphics a tiny bit compared to component.

PC - Standard VGA Cables (always 1360 x 768)
Nothing notable with the PC, other than that it performed way better than I hoped. I'm very impressed with the PC performance!

Unfortunately I don't have any of the PS2 games you mentioned. I can't test anything with a meter, like golf games. The Tiger Woods 2006 demo for the 360 isn't good enough, as you drive via the right analog stick.

I know this doesn't help you if you're perceiving gaming lag on your set. However, if it's not too late, would you be able to exchange your set for a slightly newer model? I'm very happy with this set, and plan to keep it as long as I don't find any lag. The lag's not much of an issue anyway, as I don't plan on playing much of my older machines going-forward. If there is lag, and I'm not noticing, then only the Wii will give it any trouble (only 480p on the Wii).

I am very appreciative to have found this forum. I was about two days away from buying a 1080p DLP HDTV when I ran across this. I had actually never heard of it before and I consider myself a hardcore gamer and I am pretty knowledgeable about HDTVs. And then that was all thrown up in smoke. What surprises me is that EGM has never mentioned this problem, even in the feature they did on HDTVs. I am unclear on a few things though that I hope you guys can help me understand.
First, my RP CRT TV's native resolution is 540p or 1080i. An XBox has an option to change the output to 1080i, so if I change the output of my XBox to 1080i and the TV to 1080i will there still be lag? I ask because I've read the posts and they say that no matter what type of TV you have there WILL be lag but then they say that if the TV is 1080i and the system is 1080i then there is no lag, it's kind of confusing. Also if the XBox is set to output 1080i and the TV is set to 1080i but I play a game that is 480p will there be lag? That's the main thing I am confused about. I need to know if it will solve the problem if my XBox is always set to 1080i output and the TV is set to match it, even when I play a game that is 480p on the XBox.
I really appreciate any answers I might get.

Cenobite13,

Here's my understanding. You will only get gaming lag if the TV has to convert the image your game machine is sending to another format. Generally speaking, up-converting is the worst for lag. For example, you send a 480i image to a set that is natively 1366 x 768 (true 720p), then the TV needs to fill in an additional 480 lines. Here's the logic:

480i = 240 lines of data
480p = 480 lines of data
720p = 720 lines of data
1080i = 540 lines of data
580p = 540 lines of data
1080p = 1080 lines of data

720 - 240 = 480

In your case, I doubt you will see any problems. You said it all:

Also if the XBox is set to output 1080i and the TV is set to 1080i but I play a game that is 480p will there be lag?
The Xbox is putting out 1080i, so that means the Xbox is doing the upconversion. It's when you force the TV to do the up-conversion is when it's bad.

You also said you have a CRT. I hear CRTs aren't nearly as bad for gaming lag as DLPs and LCDs. Not sure why, though. Haven't read into it enough. I think it has something to do with the image enhancement.

I hope that helps.

[Edit]
I forgot something. If the TV is set to 1080i, and it's receiving 1080i from the Xbox, but the native rez is something else (like 720p), then an upconversion occurs again.

720 lines - 540 lines = 180 lines upconversion.

180 isn't as bad as 480, so you shouldn't notice much. In your case, you're native rez has 540 lines of data so no conversion should be happening.
[End Edit]

thedrew999,

I just wasnted to let you know that I appreciate your reply. It's actually good to hear, it does help clear things up.
It seems I was wrong in thinking my RP CRT was an outdated technology. Even if I do decide to get a new TV I'm just going to get a bigger RP CRT, ashamed they're phasing them out.
I'm glad this board has people who will take time out of their day to help someone else understand something, especially that the new technology isn't exactly better.

I think you guys will find this article VERY interesting:

http://www.behardware.com/articles/632-1/lcds-images-delayed-compared-to-crts-yes.html

Some of our readers told us about a possible risk of delay of image displayed on LCDs compared to CRTs. We have checked this information and… they are right! All LCD monitors tested were from a few milliseconds to a couple of images late compared to CRTs. Of course there are consequences: in LAN games, those who have CRT monitors have advantages over other participants. This is also true for movies: sound comes before images and sometime a lot earlier…

So even if you use the "Game Mode" of your monitors, you may still have lag!

I think you guys will find this article VERY interesting:

http://www.behardware.com/articles/632-1/lcds-images-delayed-compared-to-crts-yes.html



So even if you use the "Game Mode" of your monitors, you may still have lag!

Interesting article, but we already knew that "Game Mode" does not completely fix the lag--it's written pretty clearly in the FAQ.

So, if you're playing the xbox 360 on a tv that is set to 720p you will not experience the lag?

So, if you're playing the xbox 360 on a tv that is set to 720p you will not experience the lag?
If the 360 is set to 720p, and you're playing a 360 game.

Cenobite13,

The Xbox is putting out 1080i, so that means the Xbox is doing the upconversion. It's when you force the TV to do the up-conversion is when it's bad.



This isn't true for the poster that you responded to. If he has set his xbox to output 1080i and the game doesn't support 1080i (only a handful of Xbox games do) then his xbox will actually output the next highest resolution that the xbox is told to output AND that the game can support. For example, if he didn't set 480P as an available resolution, a game that has 480p as the max res will actually put out 480i, despite 1080i being set as an available resolution on the xbox. With the xbox's 480p on, the game with 480p max res will output 480p. The xbox doesn't upconvert any games.

Thanks to fubarduck for starting the thread. Definitely an issue I didn't know about (I've got an HD CRT and I'm thinking about upgrading to an Optoma HD72 projector...).

Interesting article, but we already knew that "Game Mode" does not completely fix the lag--it's written pretty clearly in the FAQ.

Ah, but if you read on, this even affects monitors that do not have any modes at all! An LCD monitor with only VGA and DVI inputs with no post-processing at all can still lag by a few frames, even if you get a 1:1 pixel match!

This isn't true for the poster that you responded to. If he has set his xbox to output 1080i and the game doesn't support 1080i (only a handful of Xbox games do) then his xbox will actually output the next highest resolution that the xbox is told to output AND that the game can support. For example, if he didn't set 480P as an available resolution, a game that has 480p as the max res will actually put out 480i, despite 1080i being set as an available resolution on the xbox. With the xbox's 480p on, the game with 480p max res will output 480p. The xbox doesn't upconvert any games.

Thanks to fubarduck for starting the thread. Definitely an issue I didn't know about (I've got an HD CRT and I'm thinking about upgrading to an Optoma HD72 projector...).

So what would be the best course of action here? Should I reset the output of the XBox every time I go to play a different game? I mean my TV only displays in 540p or 1080i. Also, if the Xbox doesn't upconvert any games then why does it allow you to choose the output? Wouldn't it make more sense for it to just output whatever your TV will support and the game will support? For example, it seems like if the XBox didn't upconvert then they should have it to where you go into the system options and just tell it what all resolutions your TV will support and the system would use that info to output the closest resolution compatible with your TV.
You also bring up another question. I have looked into getting a projector as well but most projectors (including the Optoma HD72) use DLP technology, so doesn't that mean they would be just as bad as a DLP TV for video games? Or would a projector be a good choice?
Thanks for the help BTW.

Ah, but if you read on, this even affects monitors that do not have any modes at all! An LCD monitor with only VGA and DVI inputs with no post-processing at all can still lag by a few frames, even if you get a 1:1 pixel match!
What? You mean LCD computer monitors getting their source from a computer? Could you please explain this or give a source?

From what i've read set up the 360's output resolution to the native resolution of your TV.

If your TV's native resolution is 1080i, set up your 360 to 1080i.

Josh, look at the article linked to in post 181 above. It doesn't happen on all monitors, and some are better than others. Very bizarre isn't it?

It certainly would explain why I often get my ass kicked at work on my Dell 1905 LCD monitor at lunchtime. :)

Josh, look at the article linked to in post 181 above. It doesn't happen on all monitors, and some are better than others. Very bizarre isn't it?

It certainly would explain why I often get my ass kicked at work on my Dell 1905 LCD monitor at lunchtime. :)

I just read that article. Freaking crap. It all makes sense, though, and just about the only thing one can do to lessen this delay is to buy an LCD monitor with the lowest response time possible and to keep Vsync and triple buffering OFF, even though that may/will cause "tearing" or "breaking" of the image.

I think with my Samsung 730B 17" LCD monitor, I have noticed this lag. When I notice it in games, it does get VERY annoying, as it is one more way that puts me behind everyone else after the Internet lag in online games. Hopefully, this lag is just in my head, or maybe it's my wireless Logitech mouse and keyboard, but in any case, knowing more about this problem was definitely helpful.

At least I know this LCD monitor delay has nothing to do with any kind of video processing like and LCD TV might have. ^^

For example, it seems like if the XBox didn't upconvert then they should have it to where you go into the system options and just tell it what all resolutions your TV will support and the system would use that info to output the closest resolution compatible with your TV.

That's exactly how it works. So, for you, just set 1080i as your available resolutions and the xbox will handle the rest. The reason you have to set this up yourself is because the xbox has no idea what TV you have hooked up to the other end of the component/VGA cable. It doesn't install drivers like a PC does with a monitor, so it relies on you to have input the right resolutions. It can, however, detect the component cables, so it knows not to give 1080i or 480p when you put in composite cables. Unfortunately, there aren't many 1080i games on Xbox, so unless your TV can do 480p, you're only going to get 480i out of most games...

I'm thinking of getting the projector for newer systems with no plans to dump the HD CRT. I'd emulate most of my older systems for play via xbox emu or pc so that I could output 720p to the projector, although I don't really plan to play older fighting games on the thing unless I have friends over...even then I could just rig something to take advantage of the RGB monitor in my arcade cab. Any system that can't do 720p would still get played on the CRT, unless it wasn't very timing sensitive and managed to look okay on the projector. Displaying in the native resolution of the DLP display (which is 720p for the Optoma HD72) minimizes the lag.

OK, 2 questions...

The PS3 is supposed to output 1080p natively right? So if the tvs native res is 720p... will there be lag??

The PS3 is supposed to include the new HDMI 1.3, will that affect in some way gaming with tvs that use the "normal" HDMI?

I think I can handle one of these:

The PS3 is supposed to output 1080p natively right? So if the tvs native res is 720p... will there be lag??

For sets like a 720p native set that doesn't have 1080p as an input option, the PS3's 1080p feature is irrelevant. The output for the PS3 will have to be set to 720p or 1080i for these sets and lag will be the same.

Speaking of 1080p... for those excited about the PS3 utilizing 1080p - don't forget that framerates will be limited to 24fps or 30fps because of the current standards. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080p#Broadcasting_standards) . This will be great for blue-ray movies, but for gaming... not so much. 720p or 1080i are much better resolutions for gaming on a consumer HDTV.

Speaking of 1080p... for those excited about the PS3 utilizing 1080p - don't forget that framerates will be limited to 24fps or 30fps because of the current standards. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080p#Broadcasting_standards) . This will be great for blue-ray movies, but for gaming... not so much. 720p or 1080i are much better resolutions for gaming on a consumer HDTV.
Those are broadcasting standards for dealing with bandwidth limitations in the distribution of 1080p content. The PS3 should output 1080p/60 just fine.

The PS3 should output 1080p/60 just fine.

In theory, yes. But what TV will it display 1080p/60 on? ;)

Ok first let me throw this out there. Most of this stuff is confusing the crap out of me and I certainly lack some of the tech knowledge that you guys have.

MY Story.

I went out last year (August) and after a ton of research, bought the 2005 50inch Sammy 50inch 1080P DLP. Had it professionally calibrated etc. The tv rocks but had no clue about the lag issue. I am a hard core Madden baller and went ballistic when the lag happened.

( I notice it the mostly on Madden kicking). The research I have done says the only fix to this probelm was the PS3 which is also 1080p.

Do we have a clear answer if the new platforms will prevent lag? I can't get a straight answer from reading these posts. keeping fingers crossed

DLP LAG. . :mad:

In theory, yes. But what TV will it display 1080p/60 on? ;)
Just about every 1080p display that accepts 1080p via its HDMI inputs will display a 1080p/60 signal. Today, people are displaying 1080p/60 from their PCs on their flat panel LCDs and DLPs. Also, the displays that the signal is being displayed on have nothing to do with the broadcasting standards that you previously mentioned.

Just about every 1080p display that accepts 1080p via its HDMI inputs will display a 1080p/60 signal.

Thanks for the update... I think I was going off old info. :o

great thread.


unfortunately, the info i need is tantalizingly just out of reach in these pages. i am only concerned about halo2 on my 360. i played on my buddies 50" panny 600HD plasma and it was awesome! no lag! none. unfortunately, i cant justify $4k for a gaming TV, so i am looking into a 42" sub-premium brand (maxent or LG). has anyone tried halo2 on some of these types of plasma sets? what are your impressions?

I love my RP CRT even more after reading this thread.

Wow, this thread was almost EXACTLY what I was looking for. Thanks for all the great info fubarduck.

I'm looking at buying a DLP "projector". Can I assume that the same technology and lag issues will be at work on a projector as they would in a DLP-based set?

I'm trying to decide between LCD and DLP projector and my budget is around $5k. I won't tolerate lag, but if I can spend $2-3k on a projector and another $2k on a scaler or some other solution to this problem, that works just fine for me.

Fubarduck: Do you have any opinions on how projectors coupled with scalers handle the lag issue? Or just (newer) LCD/DLP projectors in general in the $3-5k range?

Thanks!

GPF.

Have any of you ever tried or seen a scaler like this?

Copy and paste this exact title and search for it on google and you'll bring up a website that has it. "Ultra 5x3 Multi-Format Video Scaler Switcher with TV Tuner". (AVS won't let me post a link yet)

Why wouldn't this scaler work? I welcome any opinions on this scaler.

Also, GoldenSilver
That's exactly how it works. So, for you, just set 1080i as your available resolutions and the xbox will handle the rest. The reason you have to set this up yourself is because the xbox has no idea what TV you have hooked up to the other end of the component/VGA cable. It doesn't install drivers like a PC does with a monitor, so it relies on you to have input the right resolutions. It can, however, detect the component cables, so it knows not to give 1080i or 480p when you put in composite cables. Unfortunately, there aren't many 1080i games on Xbox, so unless your TV can do 480p, you're only going to get 480i out of most games...
What I was trying to say was wouldn't it be better to put the XBOX's display at 480p even though my TV will display in 1080i because if I have the XBOX set to 1080i and I play a 480p game then it actually otputs 480i. Seems like I should keep it on 480p so that it will output 480p because supposedly the hardest thing for the TV to do is upconvert a 480i signal and that is where most of the lag comes from? What do you think? I mean it sounds counter productive to set the XBOX to display in 1080i if it just outputs most everything at 480i. Thanks again.

Thanks for the great info everyone! I'm in the market for an HDTV and thought I knew enough. Nope.

Quick question for anyone who has an idea or opinion...

How will the new Sony XBR2 line of LCos HDTVs' fair in the lag category?

They are coming out around the same time as the PS3 and I'm assuming they must be engineering the XBR2's around the PS3. It may be too soon to know anything but one would think they would want the XBR2 to show off the full horsepower of the PS3 (considering the PS3 needs an additional edge on the 360 to justify its higher price, besides BD)

I realize since there not out we can only guess, but I was hoping someone might have an opinion. ($7800 for the 70in xbr2 is alot of dough for a lag problem)

I'm assuming they must be engineering the XBR2's around the PS3.

You would think, but I wouldn't assume that. I believe the display and game console are two separate branches of Sony. I have heard problems with Sony components not working together as they should.

With that said - the XBR2's look like they will be very nice displays. If the lag is as minimal as my XS955 they should work great with the PS3.

Anybody heard about lag on the new lcd 1080p tv's with ps2 and the original xbox.
if i have a dvd player putting out at 480i will it also lag?
i know there wont be lag from my pc but thats about it, not too sure i want a 2,000 dollar monitor since it would be useless to me with lag.........

Anybody heard about lag on the new lcd 1080p tv's with ps2 and the original xbox.
if i have a dvd player putting out at 480i will it also lag?
i know there wont be lag from my pc but thats about it, not too sure i want a 2,000 dollar monitor since it would be useless to me with lag.........
There will be some form of lag no matter what when taking anything but 1080p and displaying it on a 1080p TV.

So your PS2, Xbox, and DVD player will all lag if they are only outputting 480i or 480p resolutions.

anyone try the XRGB 3 that NCS is selling yet?

This is a great thread and I appreciate furbark for creating it and all the great input that has gone into it. I am now, however, wondering if I should even get an HDTV. I want to get an Xbox 360 and experience it in all of its 720p/1080i glory, but I also have a large library of retro games. Namely for my NEO GEO and Saturn. I was considering going DLP, but that is off now, considering the reports with lag reaching upwards of a quarter second. LCD the way to go? I am also struggling with the 1080p decision. I want to future proof my TV, but is the extra money really worth it? Won't 1080i just tide us over?

Big Ev,

I can't speak to your HDTV questions, but I can make a recommendation for your Neo Geo, Saturn, and all older game systems: use an SD display.

It may seem counterintuitive but HD is not always the best solution, and it's certainly not for old, low-res video games. The vast majority of console games before the Dreamcast appeared ran in what might be called 240p, the form of 480i that looks progressive and has scanlines. Systems like Neo Geo and Saturn displayed their graphics at 320x240 or below, and were intended to be viewed with scanlines. The scanlines soften the jagged edges of these low-res images so that they actually look pretty good.

In comparison, an HDTV (and fixed-pixel displays in general) cannot display these low-res signals in their native format; it has to process and modify the image, which always means line-doubling and usually means additional effects which vary by HDTV model. This results in a 480p image devoid of scanlines. In their place are duplicated lines, so each pixel looks twice as tall. It's akin to viewing a game on a PC-based console emulator. Along with motion shearing and other possible artifacts, the end result is not pretty in my opinion, though it's definitely a judgment call.

In addition, the HDTV's signal upscan process runs the risk of introducing processing time, which will be noticed as input lag. Obviously, this is to be avoided at all costs, and varies by HDTV model.

I could not live with the compromises inherent in retro gaming on an HDTV, so I sought out a superb RGB-compatible Sony CRT (KV-29DS65) that I finagled out of Japan. Analog RGB was the best signal type possible before Component appeared, and is what arcade games use (or used to). With my RGB setup for old games and soon a solid HDTV for Xbox and later, I'll be all set.

For more info on retro game RGB stuff I recommend the GamesX forum (check Google). It's down at this specific moment, but should return whenever. Essential resource.

Edit: I should add, there is a possible middle-of-the-road solution. You could use the Micomsoft XRGB-2 (described in this thread's first post) to upscan your old consoles' 480i/240p RGB to 480p VGA. The XRGB-2s have a "fake scanline" feature that draws black lines over every other line. It's a fair effect, better in the later XRGB-2+ models than the old non-plus ones. It's not perfect, but could well be good enough to get your game on.

BJT, nice post, and I agree completely. Also, thank you for the references -- they should come in handy.

Sure thing. Nice to see other old-school RGB enthusiasts around here. :)

I've done some testing of HDTVs, 12 displays tested so far.

My test is rather crude and has a fairly large margin of error, but it's consistent across all the displays I've tested so the results should be at least comparable with each other.

If you're interested in seeing the results, check out hdtvlag_dot_googlepages_dot_com. (sorry for the _dots_ but I'm within the 5 post minimum and the forums won't let me post a straight-up URL, which is unfortunate because I really think this is relevant.)

As an aside, I picked up an LG 42LC2D. Contrast ratio sucks and image quality could be better, but it was one of the fastest displays I tested. After being burned the first time around with a Samsung purchase, I wasn't looking to compromise speed for anything else.

Here is the same link for those who are interested:
http://hdtvlag.googlepages.com/

Nice work on this. There are some quite interesting results in there. I'm curious, on some of the TVs that have a "Game Mode", were you able to see if the lag was any less?

My experience with game mode has generally been that it does nothing more than drop the brightness and contrast slightly.
Regardless, all the tests were actually conducted with game mode on and as much of the image processing turned off as possible to try and get the display to perform as fast as it possibly could.
An interesting note though, if you take a look at the Toshiba 37HL86 results, I've got scores for it in 16:9 and 4:3. You can see just how much time is spent on the scaling routine alone by comparing the two results for that model.

I have read through a good portion of this thread but I would like a definitive answer (if there is one). I would like to buy a new HD TV in the 50" or so size. I had read a good deal about picture quality for movies and HD shows so I thought I was on my way to a plasma. I know my teenagers are going to want to play their Xbox on this new tv and are hoping for an Xbox 360 in the future. Based on this thread, is the older technology of a rear projection CRT tv less likely to lag than new plasma and lcd tv's? It won't be much fun to buy a new 360 if the large screen tv doesn't play it well. If RP CRT tv's do a better job of gaming, it looks like I'll be back to square one researching RP CRT's.

Thanks,

Scott

Scott,
CRT HDTVs aren't really any better off when you're talking about the actual video processing being the culprit of the lag. Anytime it has to scale or perfect the image, it's going to add some processing time.
As for the Xbox360, the theory has been that if the TV is running in a native HDTV resolution, the upscaling routine isn't required and the lag should essentially disappear (this wasn't the case with the Samsung I purchase initially however, so make sure you look for this sort of thing). Although I don't believe the lag can ever be completely gone (read the 'theory' section on my hdtvlag site) it can at least be minimized.
The question at this point would be, is that 'good enough'?
As for a definitive answer, the very nature of the problem is that it's subjective. The majority of the people that I've discussed this with write me off as being overly anal about the issue. I see it differently however, I'm not looking to drop thousands of dollars on something that isn't adequate for what I want to do.
I think BJT's post above is the most definitive. If you want to play older consoles, grab a nice SD CRT and don't worry about it. The newer consoles that run in hdtv native modes will probably run fine on most HDTVs.
Again, it's a subjective problem. Just test everything thoroughly before you commit.

Thanks for the reply Kernon.

I've learned alot about plasma, lcd's and microdisplays by reading this forum but often my head swims with all the technical reading so I'm often left feeling more confused. Kind of like getting an answer to one question which opens the door for three more!

Anyway, I've been slow to plunk down $2,000-$2,500 for a new HD tv without feeling more confident of my choice. I've been reading some on the RP CRT's and I may give some thought to buying a RP CRT for $1,000 now and wait until next year to buy a newer technology tv when prices drop more and a few more bugs are worked out.

Scott

Just keep in mind that the problem isn't necessarily LCD vs Plasma vs CRT. It's a problem with HDTV as a whole. The best you can do is minimize the lag.
The interesting point about my experience was that if you were just watching tv/dvd, you'd never know the difference. It was the gaming that I noticed the problem.
So take a good look at your needs and if letting your kids play xbox on it is important, than by all means take that into consideration. But if you're not looking to play games on it yourself, you might be better off telling the kids to save up for their own tv. ;)

I've done some testing of HDTVs, 12 displays tested so far.

My test is rather crude and has a fairly large margin of error, but it's consistent across all the displays I've tested so the results should be at least comparable with each other.

If you're interested in seeing the results, check out hdtvlag_dot_googlepages_dot_com. (sorry for the _dots_ but I'm within the 5 post minimum and the forums won't let me post a straight-up URL, which is unfortunate because I really think this is relevant.)

As an aside, I picked up an LG 42LC2D. Contrast ratio sucks and image quality could be better, but it was one of the fastest displays I tested. After being burned the first time around with a Samsung purchase, I wasn't looking to compromise speed for anything else.

Hey kernon,

Thank you for making that Web site. I'm glad there was somebody willing to test that many TVs and publish the results. It's thanks to the dedication of a few that many more people are able to make more educated purchasing decisions.

I recently picked up a Westinghouse LVM-37w3 and it works great--provided that I send it 480p instead of 480i. Right now, my PS2 is going through my XRGB-2+ which outputs to the VGA port of the TV at 640x480. On back-order for an XRGB-3 now, but when I get it I hope to feed the 480i-only stuff to that and then output to the DVI-D port.

When I have time I'll test the response time for 480i on the Westinghouse here.

As for your Guitar Hero/PS2 issue, I'd stay on the lookout for the Xploder HDTV upscaling software. It'd be nice if we could get 480p output at all times on PS2 without having to shell out for a PS3.

Yeah, I still haven't solved this problem myself either. I keep my 27" TV hooked up next to my 50" DLP. It seems the XRGB2 will do what I want when I get around to ordering one. I'm curious to see if this Xploder thing works too.

Previously I'd tested a generic PS2 VGA adapter (Redant) and an iScan Plus without any success in reducing lag. Then I got tired of buying hardware...:)

Cush

Or you buy a plasma... :)

I'll never go back to DLP for video games.


All the fixed pixel engine displays can have lag issues, it just "happens" to show up more freqently with DLP sets. To be safe you need to find out how the specific model you want behaves with what you plan to use on it connected the way you plan to connect it. A DLP display with nasty lag via analog inputs may have no lag issues with a 1080i digital input via DVI/HDMI.

Can someone please help me out. This is driving me crazy. I am looking at the Samsung HL-S4666W 46" DLP. Does anyone have this TV? Does it lag with 480i? I want the TV for my 360 and the Nintendo Wii when I get one. I also would like to play some older consoles on it and thats where im worried about the lag. Anyone use this tv?

If not the Samsung, im thinking of getting the Sony KDF-E42A10 LCD.

JustinSane, I haven't tested those models specifically, but Sony and Samsung generally speaking were among the slowest displays I tested.
If you're looking for speed, I recommend going with LG, JVC, Panasonic or Phillips.
Depending on your size requirements, you can start cutting manufacturers pretty quickly as I don't believe Panasonic or Phillips make a screen larger than 37".

JustinSane, I haven't tested those models specifically, but Sony and Samsung generally speaking were among the slowest displays I tested.
If you're looking for speed, I recommend going with LG, JVC, Panasonic or Phillips.
Depending on your size requirements, you can start cutting manufacturers pretty quickly as I don't believe Panasonic or Phillips make a screen larger than 37".

I read somewhere I can't remember if it was Olevia or Westinghouse, maybe both, it said that they use the LG screens on their tvs. If this is true it should be as fast as the LG tvs right?

By the way, thank you for doing those tests. Because of that page I didn't make the mistake of just buying whatever HDTV I could and expect it to not lag.

Can someone please help me out. This is driving me crazy. I am looking at the Samsung HL-S4666W 46" DLP. Does anyone have this TV? Does it lag with 480i? I want the TV for my 360 and the Nintendo Wii when I get one. I also would like to play some older consoles on it and thats where im worried about the lag. Anyone use this tv?

If not the Samsung, im thinking of getting the Sony KDF-E42A10 LCD.

I recently ordered a 56 inch Samsung 1080p DLP (HL-S5687W). I drug my PS2 and a copy of Frequency (rhythm game) to Circuit City to give it a run through first. With the game mode off, Frequency was unplayable. But with the game mode turned on, there was no noticeable lag at all. Also tested Gran Turismo 4. I'm a pretty hardcore gamer, and I realize that the testing scenario wasn't ideal ( standing up, music blasting in store), but I think it was just fine. I'll know for certain when I get the set home.

I'm about to purchase the Sharp LC-32D40U Aquos 32" to be used almost exclusively for gaming. Initially I'll have it hooked up to an original XBOX with 480p but soon will be upgrading it to work with the X360 or Wii.

Does anyone have experience with this set and its gaming? Its spec says the response time is just 6ms which seems quite good.

My main concern is that I want to make sure there is no lag. I will not be playing any 480i games - mainly just 480p or 720p/1080i. What do you guys think? Thanks!

lovingdvd:
Sorry, don't have any details on that LCD specifically. Just wanted to clarify something about response time and input lag.

AFAIK response time on LCDs is not really relevant to the gaming input lag we're talking about here. A poor LCD response time will lead to noticeable image blurring (which is bad, yes), but not the discernably slow response to controller input which is being discussed here. Controller input lag is generally caused by the image processing the TV does to the console's video signal before it displays it, the details of which have little to no relation to an LCD's 6ms response time rating.

By the way, manufacturers play fast and loose when quoting LCD response times, so don't take that 6ms spec as gospel. Real-world performance could look less impressive, so try to take the set for a test drive.

I recently ordered a 56 inch Samsung 1080p DLP (HL-S5687W). I drug my PS2 and a copy of Frequency (rhythm game) to Circuit City to give it a run through first. With the game mode off, Frequency was unplayable. But with the game mode turned on, there was no noticeable lag at all. Also tested Gran Turismo 4. I'm a pretty hardcore gamer, and I realize that the testing scenario wasn't ideal ( standing up, music blasting in store), but I think it was just fine. I'll know for certain when I get the set home.
Sounds good, although I will still probably go to tweeter and test for myself. I was looking at getting a HL-S5088W and I am pleased to hear that the game mode fixes the delay.

edit: Went to tweeter and the putz there said he had never heard of anything like this and fefused to let me test it out. I kindly made my exit and headed over to Circuit City. Well sadly they were remodeling that section so the displays were all moved and not hooked up :(. Then I went to Best Buy and they don't have the 88's yet but I was willing to test a 87. Too bad they didn't have a HL-S5087W on display. Although the employee who was helping me insisted that if you use the component video cables for the PS2 that it does the up-converting for the TV. Is this a nice piece of mis-information? I kindly explained to him that not all PS2 games support 480p/1080i. I offered to show him the delay on one of the display models but I think he was getting tired of assisting and declined.

I think I am just going to order a HL-S5087W for a nice price and hope for the best...

Sure thing. Nice to see other old-school RGB enthusiasts around here. :)
I definitely feel the RGB love. I have custom cables I made for my NEO GEO to hook up to the RGB inputs on an old Sony PVM I have :)

First, I hope this is in the proper section/thread.

I just purchased a Sony KDL-46XBR2 and use a HDMI connection from my HD cable box to the LCD TV.

I'm in the process of purchasing a new PC and want to have the best quality connection available to the LCD. I'm keen on having a 1GB video card but have not seen any that offer HDMI connections, only DVI. I'm also replacing an Onkyo DCR-500 with a Denon AVR 2807 or 3806 in order to move more towards the new HDMI connection.

Is anyone aware of a 1GB PC video card with a HDMI connection? I know I can buy a DVI to HDMI cable and add the audio cables but prefer to go the HDMI to HDMI route.

By the way, my preferred game is America's Army.

Thanks.

']First, I hope this is in the proper section/thread.

I just purchased a Sony KDL-46XBR2 and use a HDMI connection from my HD cable box to the LCD TV.

I'm in the process of purchasing a new PC and want to have the best quality connection available to the LCD. I'm keen on having a 1GB video card but have not seen any that offer HDMI connections, only DVI. I'm also replacing an Onkyo DCR-500 with a Denon AVR 2807 or 3806 in order to move more towards the new HDMI connection.

Is anyone aware of a 1GB PC video card with a HDMI connection? I know I can buy a DVI to HDMI cable and add the audio cables but prefer to go the HDMI to HDMI route.

By the way, my preferred game is America's Army.

Thanks.
I am pretty sure HDMI and DVI are exactly the same other than the fact that HDMI has audio.

You should also take into consideration HDCP, the copy protection protocol integrated with HDMI. I haven't had the opportunity to do any testing with this, but it is feasible that a television will simply refuse to play media connected via HDMI if it can't negotiate an appropriate HDCP handshake.
It's a good theory that you can just get an adaptor to go from DVI to HDMI, but it's really something you shoud test before blindly committing to it.

Fubarduck, you aren't entirely correct with your statement that avoiding the TV's scaler is the solution to lag problems. The following items also add lag time:

Analog to Digital Converter
De-Interlacer / Interlacer

Display Type Specifics:
CRT: Electron Beam Travel
LCD and Plasma: Crystal Charge Time
DLP: Mirror Movement Time

Until a game console comes with a purely digital output there is no way to bypass the A/D Converter.

The interlacer/de-interlacer can be bypassed by keeping the consoles output (progressive or interlaced) the same as your set's native display.

And of course you hit on setting the console's resolution output to most closely match that of your television to bypass the scaler or decrease it's processes. I just thought people should be aware that while your article is quite informative and is correct the information presented, however the scaler is not the only, or even the main source of lag.

mirror movement time is not the problem with DLPs, the mirrors switch at an incredible rate. From what I have read, the reason dlps lag is because they have to load an entire frame into memory to calculate the frequency at which to switch the mirror(which determines the shade). Thus you have to add at least 1 entire frame (1/60 of a second) to the lag.

Sounds good, although I will still probably go to tweeter and test for myself. I was looking at getting a HL-S5088W and I am pleased to hear that the game mode fixes the delay.

edit: Went to tweeter and the putz there said he had never heard of anything like this and fefused to let me test it out. I kindly made my exit and headed over to Circuit City. Well sadly they were remodeling that section so the displays were all moved and not hooked up :(. Then I went to Best Buy and they don't have the 88's yet but I was willing to test a 87. Too bad they didn't have a HL-S5087W on display. Although the employee who was helping me insisted that if you use the component video cables for the PS2 that it does the up-converting for the TV. Is this a nice piece of mis-information? I kindly explained to him that not all PS2 games support 480p/1080i. I offered to show him the delay on one of the display models but I think he was getting tired of assisting and declined.

I think I am just going to order a HL-S5087W for a nice price and hope for the best...

Greeneggs, did you aquire this TV yet? I feel like I keep hearing positives and negatives about DLP lag, with some Samsung sets being terrible and then with other sets its not even noticable.
I'm particularly interested in your experiences with that set now because deal news recently posted this deal for a similar model. I can't post URLs yet since this is my first post...but if you go to dealnews_com and then go to 'electronics' then 'televisions' and then 'projection TVs' there is a Samsung HL-S5086W for a real good price. This is a set I'm really considering buying, but in the end it comes down to lag issues.
I'm gonna have to go down to CC or Best Buy eventually to test out the TVs with my xbox, but does anyone know the best xbox games to test out in an electronic store to determine lag time on an HDTV? I was thinking Madden 2K7, but MVP 2K5 seems like a popular choice as well...

Thanks to fubarduck for creating this thread as well as posting all the valuable information, and to everyone who else who has contributed thus far.

Just to write a quick note,

After messing around with the XRGB-3 for a weekend and an E-Mail conversation with Micomsoft, I've discovered the following:


- The XRGB-3 uses a frame buffer system which is unavoidable with the hardware it uses. They decided to go with the frame buffer system to keep a low price-point, as better hardware to do it without the frame buffer system would have been too expensive. So, there will always be video game lag when using its normal function mode (1024x768, 1280x1024, and 1600x1200 outputs).

- The lag is about 80-100ms for 480i material, and about 20ms for 480p material

- For this reason, they added the Line Doubler/Transcoder mode which functions similar to the XRGB-2+ and has no delay (outputting 640x480 / 480p). However, it's impossible to use DVI in this mode because the frequency in this mode cannot be outputted via DVI. It also doesn't sync as well with LCD Monitors and with arcade boards (which explains why my Supergun is unrepairably distorted in this mode).

- They're aware of all the problems but pointed out that it will take time to write and verify the firmware updates, and most of these problems are unfixable.


So, I hope that clears it up for everyone. The XRGB-3 was created and targeted for the audience that doesn't mind gaming lag and just wants to play games in a high resolution on their monitor in DVI.

Therefore, The XRGB-3 would be acceptable if you want to play console games lag-free in 640x480 / 480p, but it is not compatible with arcade boards like the XRGB-2/XRGB-2+ and will not use DVI or high definition.

Also, GoldenSilver

What I was trying to say was wouldn't it be better to put the XBOX's display at 480p even though my TV will display in 1080i because if I have the XBOX set to 1080i and I play a 480p game then it actually otputs 480i. Seems like I should keep it on 480p so that it will output 480p because supposedly the hardest thing for the TV to do is upconvert a 480i signal and that is where most of the lag comes from? What do you think? I mean it sounds counter productive to set the XBOX to display in 1080i if it just outputs most everything at 480i. Thanks again.

You can enable both 480p and 1080i on xbox at the same time and then your games will just display the highest resolution that they support when component cables are attached.

Greeneggs, did you aquire this TV yet? I feel like I keep hearing positives and negatives about DLP lag, with some Samsung sets being terrible and then with other sets its not even noticable.
I'm particularly interested in your experiences with that set now because deal news recently posted this deal for a similar model. I can't post URLs yet since this is my first post...but if you go to dealnews_com and then go to 'electronics' then 'televisions' and then 'projection TVs' there is a Samsung HL-S5086W for a real good price. This is a set I'm really considering buying, but in the end it comes down to lag issues.
I'm gonna have to go down to CC or Best Buy eventually to test out the TVs with my xbox, but does anyone know the best xbox games to test out in an electronic store to determine lag time on an HDTV? I was thinking Madden 2K7, but MVP 2K5 seems like a popular choice as well...

Thanks to fubarduck for creating this thread as well as posting all the valuable information, and to everyone who else who has contributed thus far.
I ordered it 9/12/06 and it finally shipped 9/26/06. So I am hoping to have it by next monday. From what I understand the HL-S5086W's do lag even in game mode. But the HL-S5087W's don't have any lag in game mode. I will know first hand here soon and post my experiences.

Hey guys, been going crazy lately after reading about lag on HDTV's :(. I'm a super hardcore gamer and play for hours at a time and was considering getting one of these sets:

46" Grand WEGA™ 3LCD Rear Projection HDTVKDF-46E2000
or
HL-S4666W 46" Widescreen DLP® HDTV with 720p Resolution

I currently use a 360 (actually getting serviced as we speak, my 3 month old box suffered from the common 0102 error :( ) but also want to play my Sega Saturn and Dreamcast as well. Does anyone know how the lag is on either set? From what I read, my older consoles are going to look like ass, what do I need to get to fix this? I'd like to stay in the ball park of $1500 for the TV, so any suggestions will be great. Also fubarduck, will the XRGB-3 fix my problems? Also, the sets only have HDMI and Component in, so what cables will I need?

Thanks for the time guys, really appreciate it!

I currently use a 360 (actually getting serviced as we speak, my 3 month old box suffered from the common 0102 error :( ) but also want to play my Sega Saturn and Dreamcast as well. Does anyone know how the lag is on either set? From what I read, my older consoles are going to look like ass, what do I need to get to fix this? I'd like to stay in the ball park of $1500 for the TV, so any suggestions will be great. Also fubarduck, will the XRGB-3 fix my problems? Also, the sets only have HDMI and Component in, so what cables will I need?

Thanks for the time guys, really appreciate it!

You should just test your DC at the store on both TVs if possible with a game where you're familiar with the timing.

Anyway, if the Game Mode on the TV you purchase isn't satisfactory, the XRGB-3 could help you a little bit. In the normal function mode, there is a 2 frame lag (33ms) according to the instruction manual. However, I think this refers to 480p and higher signals, because I can definitely feel more lag from 480i sources. Also, most people would find the 2 frame lag to be very acceptable for their gaming habits; that's about how badly a TV's Game Mode lags. The image really looks great in 1600x1200 with DVI as well.

In the Line Doubler/Transcoder mode of the XRGB-3, you sacrafice image quality and DVI output but you get a lag-free 640x480 output through VGA.

For your Dreamcast, I would recommend using a VGA cable and either running it to the VGA port on your HDTV, or if you don't have one, to the VGA input on an XRGB-3. Some VGA to Component transcoders can also do a fine job, but a lot of them cut off some of the DC's image. My recommendation would be the X-Select D4 if you decided to go this route.

For your Saturn, you should run it to your HDTV via S-Video (I think that's as high as Saturn can go) and enable Game Mode. If the image quality is unsatisfactory, and you don't mind a slight lag, you could use the XRGB-3 to output DVI for a high quality image. If you wanted to eliminate the lag, you could use the XRGB-3 or XRGB-2+ to output VGA for an acceptable image.

Wow, fubarduck, you really know your way around obscure video conversion products. Good show.

I just wanted to add that the Saturn (like most older consoles) supports 15khz RGB, which is by far the best signal you'll get out of it. The XRGB-2 and 2+ can accept this type of signal via 21-pin SCART connector. I haven't seen the 3 but it almost certainly can as well.

It's also worth noting that Dreamcast supports RGB too, but as with its VGA support, a handful of games won't show a picture through it. RGB is a better choice for playing the system's small assortment of low-res (240p), scanlined games, such as Marvel vs. Capcom 1, KoF DM '99, Bangai-O!, and Street Fighter III: Double Impact. VGA is a better choice for the vast majority of the system's library, since it allows for progressive display of their 640x480 graphics.

You have to keep an s-video cable around to play those few games that don't work and can't be tricked into working in RGB or VGA. (So laaaaame, Sega.) Giga Wing is one that comes to mind.

Ok, Agent 477, my answer is less than simple: Wait, don't buy anything for about a year, and here are some of the reasons why I advise this. First off, it should be obvious that the television manufacturers don't like having to adjust for all of these silly formats. ie 48i,480P,720i,720P,etc.. They must do it, therefore they have a lag problem adjusting for it. Furthermore, they also don't like having to adjust, still more towards the input side, for the "scaling" of the picture sizes and differences in 4:3,16:9 ratios and the fact that even within the 16:9 ratio, the movie 16:9 and the television 16:9 are different. Ask the front projector guys that sell screens to explain all the silly formats. This causes more of that lovable bit to analogs and analogs to bit BS that we have been buying into for so long. Makes you feel smart buying digital junk until you try to use it, then you have to apologize for getting outsmarted supporting companies with your development dollars. See cell phones that don't work, and the fools that own five of them to prove it. Make the marketeers pay for the marketing.

There was a PBS/BBC series called "The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin" and in one of the episodes a silly British buffoon news anchor, with a chin like a boat anchor, needles Reggie about how it cannot possibly make sense that he has been so successful with his chain stores that sells broken and useless junk. He goes on to say surely he should feel guilty or dumb luck guilt, etc. Reggie's reply was something like, "Actually, we would rather have it break at the store so the customer will buy two of them". This was true in the late seventies and is triplely true today. I just bought a Motorola modem and it was junk, so I wasted 1.5 hours of my time doing QC for them. I bought my first XBox and it failed within thirty days and they repaired it with a used, noisy drive, and an out of balance DV-reader, and they stole all 50 CD's of music I had on the hard drive. The first DVD writers everybody had to have in their computers and laptops were near worthless, and pretty much it still is a worthless medium for data storage. Vinyl is the best and magnetic tape is the second best. Vinyl will still play words or music 50,000 years(actually longer) after we are dead, magnetic tape thousands of years, and CD's 7 years 4 months and 4 days, as long as they do not get wet or used at all. You see, we are schmucks.

OK, if you really have to have a big screen wait at least a few days and check out the 60" XRB2 rear projection Sonys that will be about as good as it gets for picture quality and response time 2.5mS(not refresh rates). The LCD's will not cut it, the plasmas go dead if you leave them off for more than 3 months, so the best of the lot will be a none DLP Sony LCOS based system. Source what Brillion TV's use? Now it has the 2.5 version of DCM, and noise reduction, and a whole bunch of other DA to AD stuff(I consider capacitors analog), and it will stretch and shrink and manipulate colors with the best of the bit clockers on the other side of the fence(DLP). All of this trash is pretty much as dumb as not using a video camera to record film, but animating instead within a two frame split(everything non-streaming data or just say microsoft). Well they had us buying that garbage for years and we raved about how fast it was, and to me it was like crapping a walnut with the shell still on (barely tolerable, yet slow, and not going anyplace else).

Seriously. Go to the super duper gizmo, speed by the speedbump, electronic stores and hook up your game box. Play Madden, Tiger Woods, and/or MVP Baseball, and you will likely find that it will not kick, swing, or hit(respectively)in the proper timing necessary to make you go home with a chub. Still scan for sexxy women on the way in and out of the store though. Anyway, there is nothing that will play better than this new 60" XBR2 RPTV, and nothing that will look sweeter for movies and HD OTA than this 1080P, except maybe a Fijitsu Plasma, or a Panny plasma or the new Panny front Projector or the Sony pearl front projector. And as is true in porn flicks and bank accounts, bigger is better. When you play any one of these games,as mentioned throughout this thread, it is the play of the swing/kick meter that will show you if the timing is on. Game mode 480P should work, or 720P if the game and feed supports it. Don't fool yourself. If this set won't do it none of the other TV's, (likely a front Projector Sony Pearl either, since it shares the same LCOS and 3 LCD concept) will do it either. It will sell at first for $3900.00, and then for about $3500.00 before XMas. If it won't fly, try the test again with all the picture massageing trash turned off, and let's hope you chubb out of the store this time.

Why would someone buy an HD TV to have the thing dim, lose contrast, and appear washed-out, when playing games?? We are Americans, so we do quality control for manufacturers for no pay. We ship their junk that they failed to burn-in and test at the factory back to them at our expense. We buy things like cell phones that don't work, and even buy them again and again and again. Someone in this thread, as wise as me, but with much more brevity and less levity said that you must realize you cannot have what you want, and move-on. If this simple, easy to assemble, and timely test works out for you, then you are home free. If not, wait at least another year before you beat yourself up. I will be doing the same test, and I am mad as hell that this has not been corrected for the 15 years these companies have been doing this, but it is what it is, and the government was more hinderance than help(like usual). GSM cell phones work very well overseas, and you do not need to give anybody your name so Uncle Swine can track your every move(except video gamer's thumbs>refresh rate faster than 1mS), or beg to sign a, worthless for you, contract to make a crappy phone call. Nope, only here would we call that a free market. Take econ 101 to realize that having monopolies is counter intuitive to quality and free market access.


Before everyone thinks I is dumb. I realize that refresh rates and Response times are different animals feeding at the same redundant trough. I also realize that scaling is more than just picture size. I also know that we are stuck with processing this stuff coming in on the front side, and that is less related to refresh rates than I made clear. What I will say is that if on the front side, and in the middle(color processing), and if at the end (2:3 dropdown or pulldown) or anywhere in-between you have to keep synchronizing, then you will have a hard time matching the near instantaneous digit-L and ocular response times. Be careful what you ask for. Oh, and I am not implying that any of you can watch streaming data smoothly on your computers(jeez I am not stupid). And I know the difference between analogue and anal-log. IMHO everything, shy of number crunching and simple run time data acquisition, that is digital, just plain sucks. Good Luck, and don't fool yourself or buy band-aids for $4000.00 products.

I have a 6 year old Sony 32" tube TV that has a beautiful picture and works well for a monitor/game. If you don't mind buying something that works for a change(joking). Also HDVHS is a lovely medium that has more longevity in its' recordings. Just for the sake of posterity.

Mark Twain, "I never let my schooling interfere with my education."

Wow, that's a lot to take in :P! I do agree with waiting, cause picture quality is much more important to me than just a huge screen. It's stupid to have a huge display if everything is blurry. Instead I'll just stick to my 27" flat panel tv from panasonic! It has awesome black levels, and the image is super sharp. Until the HDTV's can replicate that image bigger, they can keep them!

Bobalou, I am still using my (squealing) 19" CRT monitor for the reasons you pointed out. :)

I don't game on my DLP projector - it makes me nauseaous (did I spell that right) anyways. Nevermind the response times, which I didn't bother measuring.

Actually, one of the biggest WOW factor is the size, but if you can't game with the same clarity, and without lag, then it is not worth shelling out the big schillings. 12000:1 contrast ratio on the new XRB2's RPTV will be higher than Sony claims, if it follows what others have measured by instrument in the XRB1s or the 2000A's. You should not even look at a 50" in a rear projection, because the verticle off axis viewing(standing up vs. sitting down) is too noticeable until you get to 60"s, where it is far far less noticable unless you are named kareem. The horizontal off-axis viewing is not a factor on many new ones this year.

I personally would love to play Halo on a no-lag 60" that was 180Watts bright with very deep blacks. These new RPTV's will really be as nice as it gets on movies and sports, and I do think we are right at the point where manufacturers can settle on anything higher than 1080P as being deminishing returns or not perceivable. This will focus the efforts into more effective improvements. And will drag the Over The Airs to the table at 1080P, rather than the lesser standard(s).

In defense of the TV manufacturers, they have had to waste a lot of money and engineering time on making these TV's play all of the formats well, and have done this by using digital processing. Time and money would be much better spent in the future when they will just make everything 1080P, and maybe scale-down to 720P half heartedly or with present quality + a little effort. If one has the space, and these new rear projectors with their 32bit of color processing are fast enough to play games as well as a CRT, then it may be worth buying now. These are not the rear projectors of old that looked a bit washed out, and dull detailed. These new ones are up to front projector standards and plasma standards. The old RPTV's could play video games though and had the standard 4:3 fit; when they fit the screen right. Yuckey screendoor and plasticky bulk.

Watch how fast 1080P settles in, the prices drop, and the OTA's adopt it as well as the Blue or grey HD-DVD's pop out (not the upconverting silliness), and I think we will see the technology and manufacturers give more by deliverring what one pays for. I did not mean to sound as negative as I did. Let's make a guess that the PS3 will force Sony's hand to play without lag (as was posted here before; different division of the company or not) in beautiful direct 1080P. No rear projection rainbow DLP headaches on LCOS from what I understand. I am not pimping Sony, but they are the closest to getting it right.

The average buyer of big high def. until recently(last 1.5 years or so) has always been an older than the average gamer guy looking for theater and Plasma performance for #1) sports and #2)movies. Both venues lend themselves to big screens. Neither uses true 1080P cameras throughout all shots, and there is no real stock of 1080P DVD selection yet. These buyers don't game, and the others like me that do, don't like to admit it. If I played as many hours of checkers, dominos, or monopoly collectively, as has been held by video games, I would be less emphatical about gamers being important in Big screen performance. It is important and it is a big market, but finding that out on a survey may be difficult, because less buyers will admit it pre-purchase or post-purchase. Tell the clerks you play video games, and they will pass that along, otherwise the companies will even be slower at getting around to this. As the prices drop more gamers will get into the big HDTV game, and they will equally appreciate the experience.

When people ask me about sports, I tell them that I like playing them, but not watching them. And I usually add that it should not take 3.5 to 4 hours to play and televise one game of American footbal(its likely downfall in Europe). Nearly every, if not every, Stock Car race has more fans at it than the Superbowl does. Take into account all of the free marketing on every TV station every night that football gets, and you really have a less successful venue. Get together with the boys, drink, hoot, and act like you even know the rules, but for all the marketing that makes the buffoons mimick, there are still more fans at the other gladiator sport. Playing vids is closer to playing sports than watching it. Your day is near.

All that being said, I believe this new Sony would be more than satisfactory for movies, and it would make me watch and appreciate more football games and sports, but I cannot miss that experience of playing games on the giant screen even if it was only with good 480P play resolution. Seems like a waste of money with that big of a penalty being payed. Within three years almost all movies and sports will be 1080P, because the TV networks and movie makers want the market share from what should be a fast moving 1080P platform and zealous demand for the broadcast. Seeing will be believeing.

These companies can easily process all of what they need to process, and digitally process fast enough to no-lag game, as is proven daily by computer monitor, and PC gamers. They have been too busy and less confident until recently to give that much processor and memory to the task. Memory and faster processing as a possible solution to the problem of lag vs. picture quality. This won't be necassary wihin a year, but even an accurate 480P and 720P standard for the 2 main boxes(PS2 and old XBox) if the stats warrant it, will bring me to the table. The new 360 and/or upgrade, and PS3 will need the games written also.

I wore out me welcome, but that is all I have for now.

Godspeed!!

Ive been gaming on a 42" Hitachi plasma, 50" Vizio plasma, Optoma H27 480p projector, Optoma H31 480p projector and the Optoma HD70 720p projector. NEVER had video game lag. Ever. This is through VGA, S-Video and Component. PS2, Xbox, Xbox 360 and Gamecube all tested.

So regrettably I don't have the time at work to read this entire thread as I would like to, so I'm going to give a lazy request.

I have a Sony KDS-R50XBR1 for a few months. I've really enjoyed the TV and I've been playing a lot of 360 games on it and they look fantastic.

I've never felt that I was suffering due to the TV (I realized there was the capability for scaling lag to exist, but didn't worry much).

Most SP and MP games I played I didn't think it was affecting me. But now I'm starting to wonder.

Some games, quicker games, made me feel like I was always a step behind when I felt I shouldn't be (Street Fighter II: HF on XBLA comes to mind, both SP and MP). Then I started reading up and saw quite a few complaints and "laggy TV" listings that contained my set. So it got me wondering what I could do to remedy the problem.

Now currently I have my 360 outputting at 1080i (because I thought the upsampling might cause some lag), but from what I'm hearing about the set, its longer in the de-interlacing than the upsampling... is that true? Would I notice less overall lag by setting my 360 to output 720p and then the set would only have to upsample and not deinterlace. or am I offbase.

Additionally if any other XBR owners have any experience/recommendations with this please don't hesitate to chime in. All input is appreciated.

Thanks,
aC

Thanks blitz6speed for the encouragement. This follows what I have read and heard about Plasma and front projection. It is the fact that I travel for over 3 months on occasion, and some other burn-in idiosychratic caharacteristics of Plasma that I cannot own it. I want a new front projector from Sony or Panasonic, but they still are not cheap enough at $4500.00(add another $1k for screen, scaler?, tuner, cables, mounts, etc.), and they also are adding more color massageing to these devices to improve the contrast ratios into that 10K to 15k range that is not inherent on the older stuff. The manufacturers can do all of this fast enough(and actually cheap to do) to avoid any accrued tolerance lag, but will they. If it was a $500.00 device, I would not worry. The biggest problem for me is I wanted to buy soon, and now have to give that up until I can prove that the device will do all of the interlace/deinterlace or direct interpretation without lag, and in the mode that is the best picture or minimal reduction in picture quality. Otherwise I feel we are near the plateau of picture quality I will need for 6 years or more. It is likely that the 1080P is not very noticeable under 60" yet, but if I were to buy now(cheaper 720P), I don't want to re-buy in a year. It does seem worth paying for the 1080P in the front projectors soon, but not this year. I have a feeling that other semi-knowledgeable buyers are fence sitting for some of the same reasons. The front projector Panasonic(November release 1000e?) is smoothing the screendoor, and likely noise reduction as is being managed in the Sony Pearl, so did either allocate enough processor?, or are they avoiding the commitment to that as a sure solution to their needs. The Trillions of colors, like scanners have had for over 5 years, are coming soon too, (I know some are out there), and the main reason I suspect they have not been available in HDTV(aside from lack of demand due to lower resolution HD and regular TV) is the time it takes to process and spit the data. Even after warm-up, a scanner cannot do mS response times, nor does it need to. Scanners are often rated as to how fast they can read and process the trillions of colors accurately within a 2400dpi or 4800dpi or whatever format, and the more detail, the slower they get. I suspect, HDTV's have to compromise down to Billions of colors(even at 32 bit), so as to instead be able to process as fast as they do. A $130.00 4800 or better scanner, and a $50.00 reflex camera will make your $3000.00 digital camera look like a waste, and it will work faster than the driver devices and mix/mismatched components it takes to get the picture right from the digital camera, and finally processed through the printer drivers. Maybe we are just shy of being ready for prime time within my anal budget constraints. My cell phone only works well enough and cheap enough overseas(even with the overprinted weak dollar), and I would not even own one here. In Thailand or Europe, it takes me three minutes to buy a chip, put it in, and be talking, without giving my name, and with cheap predictable rates. Frugal can be better, and so much for our claim to efficiency. Hopefully, I nicely suggested earlier that there is little new and good to watch, even in movies.

I have been a "Sony" person for many years - I recently lose a 25" sony moitor that I have had for over 15 years (I have a sony betamax that still works great )

3 years ago I purchase a Sony RPT - and a few weeks ago the blue lens craped out and last week the red one - to say that this a disapointing turn of events would be an understatement - and I did not play any games on it (wish I had)

So am I a isolated case? OR is this a trent - the tech from the store (decated AV store) says that it was a trent and not uncommon - so where Does one go from here
Any one know anything - think I will stick to LCD/Plasmas - So far $2000 for 3 yuears is not getting my money's worth

Bobalou are there any treads here on setting up LCDs and ATI video cards I searched but got very little

Thanks

Starship Warrior

Just making sure i read everything correctly,

if i play a PS3 game that runs at 720p on a TV thats native is 1080p i shouldnt experiance much if any lag?

PS3 game at 1080p on a tv with 720p native shouldnt have much lag either? because i can just set the ps3 to send in 720p

only if im translting from Interlaced to Progressive and having to upscale from a 420 will the lag be noticable?

I understand that there is no ZERO lag when having to upconvert but, just talking about a generality.

Ive been gaming on a 42" Hitachi plasma, 50" Vizio plasma, Optoma H27 480p projector, Optoma H31 480p projector and the Optoma HD70 720p projector. NEVER had video game lag. Ever. This is through VGA, S-Video and Component. PS2, Xbox, Xbox 360 and Gamecube all tested.

Q: I play PS2 all the time on XXX HDTV and it never lags, what gives?
A: What's more likely is that you don't notice the lag that occurs. Try a timing-sensitive game such as a rhythm game or a sports game with a swinging/kicking meter. If you still don't notice it, ignorance is bliss.


Now currently I have my 360 outputting at 1080i (because I thought the upsampling might cause some lag), but from what I'm hearing about the set, its longer in the de-interlacing than the upsampling... is that true? Would I notice less overall lag by setting my 360 to output 720p and then the set would only have to upsample and not deinterlace. or am I offbase.

You could try outputting to 720p. The lag is usually pretty unnoticeable in any HD resolution, but it might be a couple of frames behind at 1080i which is all it takes to feel in a Street Fighter game. The problem is, there's no easy way to measure this since the X-Box 360 can only output one High Def resolution at a time. I'm looking forward to the 1080p update personally.


Just making sure i read everything correctly,
-snip-
I understand that there is no ZERO lag when having to upconvert but, just talking about a generality.

Yes, you have the right idea.

You could try outputting to 720p. The lag is usually pretty unnoticeable in any HD resolution, but it might be a couple of frames behind at 1080i which is all it takes to feel in a Street Fighter game. The problem is, there's no easy way to measure this since the X-Box 360 can only output one High Def resolution at a time. I'm looking forward to the 1080p update personally.

Will the 1080P update on the 360 eliminate all lag on 1080P TVs? Or would there still potentially be lag with games that were made at lower resolutions, even though the XBOX is doing the upconverting? (e.g., Halo 2)?

I see this product is finally out. Is anyone planning on testing it out?

http://www.xploder.net/products/148/Xploder-HDTV-Player.htm

Cush

Will the 1080P update on the 360 eliminate all lag on 1080P TVs? Or would there still potentially be lag with games that were made at lower resolutions, even though the XBOX is doing the upconverting? (e.g., Halo 2)?

If you're outputting 1080p with the X360 on to a 1080p TV, the lag should only equal as much as it takes for the X360 to do the upscaling (which shouldn't be much). While nobody has exact numbers, less than one frame or 1/60th of a second is ideal and I believe the X360's upscaling is very close to that target if not there already.

I see this product is finally out. Is anyone planning on testing it out?

http://www.xploder.net/products/148...HDTV-Player.htm

Cush

As soon as I get my copy :cool:

If you're outputting 1080p with the X360 on to a 1080p TV, the lag should only equal as much as it takes for the X360 to do the upscaling (which shouldn't be much). While nobody has exact numbers, less than one frame or 1/60th of a second is ideal and I believe the X360's upscaling is very close to that target if not there already.

So it wouldn't be nearly as noticeable as sending a 1080i or 720P signal w/ the xbox and having the TV upscale to 1080P?

Hi, I have been reading that the current generation of Samsung HDTV's have faster processors in them completly eliminating the videogame lag issue. Is this true?

Also, if I get a HD LCD Projector, and hook it up(I am thinking about the cheap ones at staples). Will I get videogame lag going through the projector? How would that work with the nintendo wii sensor bar?

Thanks

I was looking at this projector

Infocus IN24 DLP Projector

will it give me video game lag problems

So are we ever going to see HDTV's with built-in scalers and deinterlacers that completely (or very close to completely) eliminate gaming lag?

Are there any processors currently or in the future than can do both quality deinterlacing/scaling and eliminate lag?

So are we ever going to see HDTV's with built-in scalers and deinterlacers that completely (or very close to completely) eliminate gaming lag?
Hopefully one day, but not yet.


Are there any processors currently or in the future than can do both quality deinterlacing/scaling and eliminate lag?
Yes! The iScan VP20/VP30 with ABT102D Deinterlacing Card and the iScan VP50 are the current scalers that can completely eliminate lag while outputting any HD resolution. These devices can deinterlace and scale to your chosen HD resolution with less than 1 frame of lag with the special Game mode turned on, better than any HDTV's built in scaler can do (even considering Game modes).

As for the future, while nothing else has been announced yet, I wouldn't be surprised if another product was released eventually to specifically target HDTV gaming lag.

Hopefully one day, but not yet.


Yes! The iScan VP20/VP30 with ABT102D Deinterlacing Card and the iScan VP50 are the current scalers that can completely eliminate lag while outputting any HD resolution. These devices can deinterlace and scale to your chosen HD resolution with less than 1 frame of lag with the special Game mode turned on, better than any HDTV's built in scaler can do (even considering Game modes).

Are there any other devises like this that are cheaper?
Does this thing really work?

I am looking for an SD TV that is bigger then my 27'
I found this one.

Toshiba 30DF56 30" Widescreen Pure Flat Standard Definition CRT TV

How would it be for gaming?
Can anyone do me one better?

Thanks

I am looking for an SD TV that is bigger then my 27'
I found this one.

Toshiba 30DF56 30" Widescreen Pure Flat Standard Definition CRT TV

How would it be for gaming?
Can anyone do me one better?

Thanks

Someone feel free to check my math but I don't think a 30" widescreen is really bigger than a 27" 4X3. In fact, the 30" only has 93% of the total viewable area of a 27" 4X3. A 32" 16X9 would be 5% larger. For a significant difference, you're going to have to jump to 37" (41% larger).

Thanks for the reply. I will probobly be better off the njsut getting a 32 incxh screen

Hmm...I'm looking for a similar solution.

I have an older 4:3 50" projection tv...it has a 'widescreen' mode (Which from my understanding compresses it's resolution/line things to 16:9 mode, but ONLY when fed with a 1080i signal)

I'm looking for something (cheaper in price) that will convert 480p--->1080i for some games (so I can enjoy them in widescreen goodness)

Is there anything like that? I don't really want to buy a new tv right now...

Why is there no lag for the xrgb-2? This unit must process the same algorythims as other scalers to output vga.
Is anyone gaming with a iscan pro or ultra, could you share you're experience?
How about the zinwell bls-3000?

Thanks for your answers.

Why is there no lag for the xrgb-2? This unit must process the same algorythims as other scalers to output vga.
Is anyone gaming with a iscan pro or ultra, could you share you're experience?
How about the zinwell bls-3000?

Thanks for your answers.

While I can't give you the technical details on exactly why the XRGB-2/XRGB-2+ doesn't lag, I can tell you that the XRGB and iScan Pro/Ultra were designed for different purposes.

XRGB: Playing video games
iScan Pro/Ultra: Watching things

The algorithms used to deinterlace signals with these devices reflect this. The XRGB-2/XRGB-2+ outputs the signal "instantly" so that video lag is less than one frame (which is the target, since over one frame is where we will be experiencing a delay) and the iScan Pro/Ultra intentionally delay the image and buffer frames so that the image quality will be as pleasing to the eye as possible. That's why you're supposed to run your audio through the iScan devices as well; if you run the audio straight to your receiver, you will experience lip synch issues while watching things.

The iScan Pro/Ultra are not advertised as devices for time-sensitive gaming and never were. DVDO made it clear that there was an input delay, but that the device could delay the audio to match the video to make up for the lag.

The iScan VP20/VP30 with ABT102D and iScan VP50, however, have a deinterlacing algorithm specifically for gaming that can reduce the delay to less than one frame, like the XRGB-2/XRGB-2+. This mode is accurately titled "Game Mode" since its purpose is for playing games with no input lag.

Again, sorry for my inability to give a technical explanation but I hope I was able to somewhat answer your question.

HI. I'm getting a Nintendo Wii and I want a new TV. The Nintendo Wii can do widescreen 480p using component cable (and normal widescreen using other cable, I believe). Most Wii games will be widescreen and 480p. I would also still like to use composite for other stuff if possible.

Would a Samsung High-Design 23" Widescreen Flat-Panel LCD HDTV Monitor (Model: LN-S2351) work?

Would a Samsung High-Design 19" Widescreen LCD HDTV Monitor (Model: LN-S1951W)?

The first one is twice as much as the 2nd one after plans and taxes. Would I be fine with the 19" one or should I get the 23" one? The basic things about these two:
19" has 700:1 contrast ratio and 8ms. The 23" one has 3000:1 contrast ratio and 8ms. The 23" says, "Supported DTV Resolutions: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i". While the 19" one doesn't any info of this kind. You can find out more about them if you search the model numbers at Cnet, BB and/or CC.

Also, I would be practically using one of the new TVs only for gaming. I can use my older TV for 4:3 games if necessary. I would watch DVD movies from time to time but mostly playing Wii on a new TV. I have a almost 4 yard by almost 4 yard room with about 3 feet of space taken up starting from the wall everywhere in my room.

I can only get one of the two stated above. If you think that I can get a better TV and is from CC/BB, then please state its name and model. But please tell me which of the two stated above would be better for me.

If you could answer all or most of my questions, I would be really grateful.

Thank you.

Red Octane has certainly been keeping up with the times and has heard our respective cries for help. In addition to supporting Widescreen and Progressive scan output, there is a feature in the video options which allows you to calibrate your HDTV Lag such that a delay will not affect your Guitar Hero experience.

So, for all those folks looking for an accurate way to measure the input lag on a new HDTV set or on the HDTV you already own, I highly recommend a purchase of Guitar Hero II. The game is released officially on Wednesday, but some retailers have already broken the street date (read: Wal-Mart) so a few lucky souls may be able to pick the game up already.

The game uses milliseconds to measure rather than frames. For reference,
1 frame is approximately 17ms (assuming the game runs at 60fps).

Please take my recommendation and purchase Guitar Hero II if not for this feature alone. It's also an awesome game, so it's win-win.

I was looking at getting a new Samsung HL-S5086W exclusively for gaming on the 360, however this thread is making me have second thoughts. Lag is an absolute MUST NOT for me, and if this DLP is going to lag, I cannot have it. This is a pitty though, since I am going to get a good deal on it...

Anyway, since it is for the 360, and only the 360, would this DLP be alright? Will I experience bad lag? I'll be outputting 720p all the time, so will this make the lag non-existant?

Fubar - I currently use a lot of retro gaming consoles (Saturn, PSX) with a 5 year old Panasonic flat-screen CRT commercial grade tv. I also have a Panny 900U HT set up.

I wanted to get a Sony XBR3 LCD for the bedroom. Will I see lag on this with the older consoles? Would the iScan 50 fix this issue? I was also worried that the XBR would "stretch" the image from 4:3 to 16:9.

Has anyone used older consoles with the newer Sony LCDs?

Thx

Fubar - I currently use a lot of retro gaming consoles (Saturn, PSX) with a 5 year old Panasonic flat-screen CRT commercial grade tv. I also have a Panny 900U HT set up.

I wanted to get a Sony XBR3 LCD for the bedroom. Will I see lag on this with the older consoles? Would the iScan 50 fix this issue? I was also worried that the XBR would "stretch" the image from 4:3 to 16:9.

Has anyone used older consoles with the newer Sony LCDs?

Thx

Yes, you will see lag on the older consoles. Whether or not it will be enough to bother you, I don't know. These models do have a Game Mode IIRC but as you know no Game Mode eliminates the lag 100%.

With an iScan VP50 (or VP20/30 w/ABT102D) you could fix the lag problem, but you might introduce some deinterlacing artifacts on some of your Sega Saturn games.

I know that the Sega Saturn can output 352 x 240p, 640 x 240p, and 704 x 480i. The games that output in 480i would be fine, but apparently, the iScan VPXX models can't properly handle a 240p source (they're treated as if they were 480i) and you'll get some ugly motion artifacts in exchange for stopping the lag. To be fair, though, most HDTV scalers don't know what to do with a 240p signal either--any games outputting 240p are probably going to look ugly either way.

For 240p-only games and consoles, I highly recommend the XRGB-2+. Although difficult to find, this box handles 240p signals quite well and can output 640x480 via VGA out (and you could let the XBR3 do the scaling). Alternately, you could get some cables to adapt the VGA signal and try inputting it to an iScan VPXX but that's probably unnecessary.

PSX output is strictly 480i, so you wouldn't have a problem using that with an iScan VPXX.

The XBR won't "stretch" the 4:3 image to 16:9 when you're just playing it hooked up straight to the inputs; 16:9 is only forced on HD sources.

If you're going through an iScan VPXX (and outputting 1080p, for example) the iScan will have an option to output the game in a 4:3 windowed area of the 16:9 output, so your TV will still be getting 16:9 but your old games will not be stretched or distorted.

Fubarduck. I have a Dreamcast ,and 2 Compilation games on the GC and PS2(Classic Mega Man and Sonic). Does the ugliness make the games unplayable? How will dreamcast look?

I'd first like to say that was a great read, finally theres a reason I suck on my friends 21" LCD monitor but pwn on my CRT 27" standard TV. :)

I kept telling my friend that his monitor lagged on Halo 2, but he said he didn't notice it, no wonder when we play over XBL he gets rocked every time.

I was looking at getting a new Samsung HL-S5086W exclusively for gaming on the 360, however this thread is making me have second thoughts. Lag is an absolute MUST NOT for me, and if this DLP is going to lag, I cannot have it. This is a pitty though, since I am going to get a good deal on it...

Anyway, since it is for the 360, and only the 360, would this DLP be alright? Will I experience bad lag? I'll be outputting 720p all the time, so will this make the lag non-existant?

Did you read what he posted?
Best: X-Box 360 Game (720p) --> Samsung displays the image directly --> Small lag.

AKA-> No you won't lag much if you play at 720p.

How does DLIA (LCOS) compare to DLP in terms of lag? I've read a couple of different gaming lag threads here and LCOS is rarely mentioned either positively or negatively. Are they any other concerns when choosing DLP or LCOS for gaming?

How does DLIA (LCOS) compare to DLP in terms of lag? I've read a couple of different gaming lag threads here and LCOS is rarely mentioned either positively or negatively. Are they any other concerns when choosing DLP or LCOS for gaming?

Thrax, this board has been somewhat helpful (though I'm still undecided argh)

RP sets, etc
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=63

This topic specifically has thoughts on Sony's Lcos 1080p's and Samsung's 1080p DLP's.. Though still doesn't seem to have a definite answer (double argg).

"Best 2006 1080p ~60" TV for Console Video Games (SXRD and HL-S Game Modes Discussed) "
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=684899


The only conclusion I have from seeing them in the store is they both look fantastic at the stores I've checked them out at. I think I'll be happy with either. I think sammy's accept 1080p over component and VGA.

What about lag on Wii? It is only outputting in 480p?

What to do?

What about lag on Wii? It is only outputting in 480p?

What to do?
Yes, it's max resolution is 480p, which almost all the games run it. That said, if you're not playing on a 480p native resolution set or a 480i "native resolution" set, there is going to be lag as the scalar in the TV upscales the signal from the Wii to the TV's native resolution.

Also, you're only going to be able to play in 480p if you buy the Wii component cables separately for $30, but availability is going to be tough right now, since Nintendo made a mistake when they didn't anticipate there being much demand for them. Your best bet would probably be to head over to Nintendo's online store right now and back order them. Otherwise you'll be stuck in the horrible quality of composite cables on 480i, which creates much more lag than 480p on a higher resolution set.

What about lag on Wii? It is only outputting in 480p?

What to do?

Most HDTVs can do the 480p to 720p/1080p conversion in less than one frame (which basically means no lag). Your only worry should be from interlaced signals.

Most HDTVs can do the 480p to 720p/1080p conversion in less than one frame (which basically means no lag). Your only worry should be from interlaced signals.
Careful! I've been able to detect the lag on any set I've played on that has upconverted the signal being sent to it. Some people can and some people can't, but for me it really ruins the experience!

Careful! I've been able to detect the lag on any set I've played on that has upconverted the signal being sent to it. Some people can and some people can't, but for me it really ruins the experience!

Most HDTVs can do the 480p to 720p/1080p conversion in less than one frame (which basically means no lag). Your only worry should be from interlaced signals.

You did read the post, right?

I did. You said "most" and I said "any set I've played on". To me, that is "most", so what you said did not ring true with what I have experienced.

I did. You said "most" and I said "any set I've played on". To me, that is "most", so what you said did not ring true with what I have experienced.

Would you mind making a list of the sets you've played on with screenshots then? You can test to see if 480p lags with a laptop outputting 640x480 via VGA, like on this site:

http://hdtvlag.googlepages.com/

I'm sure your input will be very helpful, thanks!

I didn't make myself clear. I'm sorry, but I didn't do any "tests", but on any set that I played on at a store or elsewhere has had noticeable lag. That's all. I don't really test these things since I'd rather just play on a 480i or 480p TV, which I have both of.

Again, sorry that I can't help you out in that area.

EDIT: Youdidn'tIwhatwhodidyouitmyself...Grammar.

I have been reading several threads and trying to decide about a display which I plan on using exclusively with my PS3 and wii, not for watching any movies. What would be the best lcd tv in the 32 inch size be. I am thinking about the ln 3296 from samsung and would like to avoid another outboard devices. Any help would be appreciated.
Param.

Well, I seem to have dodged the bullet, as my Olevia Syntax 32" 232V has no noticable HDTV lag. If I can play Marvel vs Capcom 2 on my Dreamcast via SVideo with no problems, then I guess I'm ok.

But I still want to clean up my 480i signals if at all possible (PS2 down to NES, and eventually 2600/INTV/CV when I get them modded), so I want a XRGB2+. I'd rather get that over the XRGB3.

So the question is, where do you find one? NCSX is long out, as is play-asia. Google didn't turn up any leads for me. Any help appreciated.

How are the olevia TV's in terms of videogame lag? Is it a real problem?

I still have no problems with my Olevia 232V. It has the ATI processor in it. Haven't played anything like Guitar Hero yet, but Zelda: TP and FFXII have been running smoothly with no issues. If there is lag, it's at the point that you don't notice it.

I still have no problems with my Olevia 232V. It has the ATI processor in it. Haven't played anything like Guitar Hero yet, but Zelda: TP and FFXII have been running smoothly with no issues. If there is lag, it's at the point that you don't notice it.

Slow-paced RPGs like Zelda: TP and FFXII are certainly not the type of games that you would notice lag in. And remember, just because you don't notice it doesn't mean other people won't.

You should do the Guitar Hero II test in 480i before you tell everyone else "it's fine". 8ms or below is the target.

I am torn now about gewtting a new TV. I want a bigger screen size, but dont want the videogame lag. Should I jsut go with a SD 32/36 inch screen TV for now, and wait till the technology gets perfected before I go and get an HDTV?

Slow-paced RPGs like Zelda: TP and FFXII are certainly not the type of games that you would notice lag in. And remember, just because you don't notice it doesn't mean other people won't.

You should do the Guitar Hero II test in 480i before you tell everyone else "it's fine". 8ms or below is the target.

Yeah, but MvC2 is the kind of game you would notice lag very quickly, when you would whiff combos like crazy. I didn't see that. That was what I was basing my assertion on.

"I am torn now about gewtting a new TV. I want a bigger screen size, but dont want the videogame lag. Should I jsut go with a SD 32/36 inch screen TV for now, and wait till the technology gets perfected before I go and get an HDTV?"

I'm feeling the exact same way. Any suggestions?

"I am torn now about gewtting a new TV. I want a bigger screen size, but dont want the videogame lag. Should I jsut go with a SD 32/36 inch screen TV for now, and wait till the technology gets perfected before I go and get an HDTV?"

I'm feeling the exact same way. Any suggestions?

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the odds of it getting "better" in the future from HDTVs are slim to none. It's not a matter of the technology not being perfected--the technology exists for lag-free gaming, and can be found in external video scalers like the XRGBs, iScans, and soon the new Lumagen. TV Manufacturers simply refuse to properly implement it into their products.

Secondly, will you even feel 2 or 3 frames of lag? Most people don't notice it, which is why there are still so many ignorant posts claiming "XXX HDTV has no lag at all". If you don't play fighting games, FPS games or rhythm games hardcore, I doubt it will affect your gaming at all.

Finally, are you going to be gaming in Standard Def or High Def? HD signals are going to be fine, it's only standard definition signals that will be greatly affected, usually 480i.

If you're going to be doing mostly Standard Def gaming, buy a regular SDTV. If you're still content on going to an HDTV, AND 3 or 4 60th's of a second delay is unacceptable for you (it is for me, but I believe I am in the minority), then you should invest in an external video scaler to pair with your HDTV.

"Finally, are you going to be gaming in Standard Def or High Def? HD signals are going to be fine, it's only standard definition signals that will be greatly affected, usually 480i."

I'm going to be gaming only on an XBox 360 so I assume it will be only High Def, correct?

"If you're going to be doing mostly Standard Def gaming, buy a regular SDTV. If you're still content on going to an HDTV, AND 3 or 4 60th's of a second delay is unacceptable for you (it is for me, but I believe I am in the minority), then you should invest in an external video scaler to pair with your HDTV."

Excuse my ignorance, but if I invest in an external video scaler, does it matter what HDTV I buy concerning lag time. Will the external video scaler eliminate all lag time in all HDTVs?

I'm going to be gaming only on an XBox 360 so I assume it will be only High Def, correct?


Excuse my ignorance, but if I invest in an external video scaler, does it matter what HDTV I buy concerning lag time. Will the external video scaler eliminate all lag time in all HDTVs?

1) Right, 360 is all high def if you're using Component cables, so there will be zero lag. This is explained very clearly in the FAQ on the front page of this thread.


2) Yes, with the exception of many Samsung DLPs, which lag even when you feed them their native resolution.


Please read the FAQ, you are asking stuff that is explained very clearly if you take the time to read.

Well, it pays to do your homework. Our old TV broke recently. I thought it was safe to buy an HDTV, so my lady and I picked one up (model: NS-32LCD...a 32" LCD from Insignia) from Best Buy. Brought it home watched some movies. Looked and sounded great. All was well.

Then I tried to play ASB 05 on the XBOX with my friend. Hitting the ball was suddenly impossible, and all else was screwy and laggy. Same on other games I've tried. We searched high and low...no Game Mode. We got so frustrated we went out to buy a NEW XBOX 360 to remedy the problem (spend 450 bucks to play a game you bought for $5.) The guy told us that there was no return policy and he wasn't sure it would fix our issue, so we decided, um, no.

Did lots of research on the net. Found lots of info. Got very confused. Now, I'm wondering: can someone examine info on my model (NS-32LCD) and tell me what to do? If I buy the 360 Premium, will it play my old games lag-free on my HDTV? Should I just buy a VGA Box to do this, possibly? Or do I need one of those Japanese XRGB things? I really want the cheapest solution here, but none seem perfect or tailored to my situation, and I'm so lost it hurts.

I would be eternally grateful if I can find a solution to this ridiculous problem. Gaming night isn't the same when you strike out at every at bat because the guy swings a half hour later. And I'm now afraid for the future of gaming in my household.

May the HDTV makers, Microsoft, and whoever else has a hand in not solving these problems rot in hell.

Regards,
PsychoCy

PS: I did read the main article, like three times, and many posts. I'm just still unsure about some things, as mentioned above. I read that the XBOX 360 is all high-def, so no lag there, for instance...but would that extend to the backwards-compatible games, too, like my old XBOX games, when played on the 360?

PS: I did read the main article, like three times, and many posts. I'm just still unsure about some things, as mentioned above. I read that the XBOX 360 is all high-def, so no lag there, for instance...but would that extend to the backwards-compatible games, too, like my old XBOX games, when played on the 360?

From the FAQ:


X-Box 360:
All X-Box and X-Box 360 games can be outputted to your choice of 480p, 1080i, or 720p.

You can also choose 1080p now since that functionality has been added. So, yes, X-Box games played on X360 will be fine, provided that they actually work. Remember that the backwards compatibility list for original X-Box games on the X360 is very small, so you should check to see if your "problem titles" are compatible.

You should also be using Component cables for your X-Box 1 and make sure that "480p" is enabled in the Video options. You won't experience lag on many HDTVs if you are getting 480p. Once again, this is all written in the FAQ.

"1) Right, 360 is all high def if you're using Component cables, so there will be zero lag. This is explained very clearly in the FAQ on the front page of this thread."

Thanks for all your help. Honestly, I did read the FAQ on page one, but it wasn't clear to me that the XBOX 360 would be free from all the lag problems. You may want to put a sentence at the top of it stating these lag problems are for older systems only. It seems that myself and from the postings in the thread, others didn't quite comprehend this fact. Just a suggestion that may help you avoid answering this same easy question in the future.

Hi,

Thanks for the answer, but I think I'm still missing something. I did try the component cables first (RGB) on my XBOX 1, as suggested in numerous threads and at the store, but the lag was still present.

However, when you say enable 480p...do you mean on the TV or on the XBOX? Trying to do this was one of the first things I tried as well, but my TV has no setting to change that and nothing in the manual, and I couldn't find it in my XBOX 1 dashboard either. (Just searched again, and neither the TV nor XBOX had it...the XBOX only had screen types (FS, WS, etc) in the video settings.)

Regards,
PsychoCy


PS: My problem title is in fact backwards-compatible, I looked that up. So someday, when I get a 360, hopefully that will solve it.

Wow, just realized something. I looked for the 480p option in the XBOX when it was still hooked up with standard def cables. Not the composite. I just hooked it back up with the RGB cords and voila...the option for 480p was there! I just enabled it and will see if it solves the problem.

PS: YES! YES! YES! THAT DID IT! I can play my dang games now! Apparently the option only shows up when you have the cords to take advantage of it plugged in. I had no clue.

Thanks again.

Well I just tested my guitar hero with 2 Olevia Models

1: 232v
2: 532H

Both have the ATI processors, and the exact same specs.

Guitar Hero ran PERFECTLY with S-video