Paradigm Owners Thread [Text View] - Page 25

fleaman

12-15-07, 04:26 PM

Thank you Fleaman... I appreciate your short but direct and to the point review of the Rockets... I have always been curious about the Rocket sound compared to the Studio's... My ears are very adept to every little nuace of recording as well, and find my Studio 100's .v4 very accurate, clean and very much distortion free especially at closer to ref levels or above..

Curious as to whether you have had a chance to check out the .v4's as the high end was even opened up a touch more then even the .v3's, smoother.

Funny I picked up a pair of these Insignia - 6-1/2" bookshelves from best buy for my son... muddiest thing I have ever heard... I didn't think anyone could make a speaker sound so aweful.. I don't think I could add enough midrange or treble to make it sound somewhat good... I know where your coming from..

Yes, Rocket vs. Studio's are a completely different sound....not even far from close!

I will add that I thought the 760's were muddy too....even when I boosted the treble into the Studio 60 range (to balance out the low end mud). I thought the 760's were very closed in, very muffled...far from the 'open' sound of the Studio 60's (relative to each other). I was very disappointed unfortunately. I wanted to like them very much...they do look great and I had been lurking on the AV123 forum for years, reading all the Paradigm to Rocket converters over there. From what I read it really seemed like Rockets would have been a nice upgrade to my old studio 60 v.1, yet discovery is a bitch :( I honestly thought there was something wrong with them. But the tweeters were working, both speakers sounded the same and they matched the 200 center tonally, and I broke them in for a week (very slight difference afterwards).

I will say that the Rockets did pretty good on action or sci-fi movie soundtracks. Those soundtracks can be a bit much sometimes, lots of high impact bright/sharp sound effects, yet on the rockets with their very muffled un-open top end, they softened it to a more pleasing level. Yet this is far from 'neutral' and far from what I was expecting. Also, 2 channel music was my 1st priority with the towers.

As for the v.3 vs. v.4 comparison: No, haven't done it. I've read a bit that there is a very slight difference in the top end, the v.4's were a little more open. Yet most seemed to think there wasn't that big of a difference, more like Paradigm needed another selling point for this new version. There is a big difference between the costs though. I can buy the V.3's used for quite a bit less than v.4's used and of course much less than v.4's new. Being I will be getting the center and surrounds, this will add up to quite a bit of $$$ difference! I wasn't willing to pay a good +$1,000 or more for a very slight difference in the v.4's.

Hang onto your 100 v.4's, I don't think there is anything out there that can match them at even 2x the cost.

AmulyaMani

12-15-07, 04:43 PM

Hello Everyone!
Looking to buy our first set of "real" speakers and need advice/commentary/insights/stories. Our usage is about 50% music, 20% Movies, and about 30% gaming (mainly me even though the wife likes racing games-360 and PS2).

Our journey started about a year ago when we went to Circuit City and listened to Polk HT system (about $500, if I remember correctly). We liked it as it was better than our TV speakers. We had no idea how much we wanted to spend. We just wanted a "good" music system. We then went to the local Magnolia in the Seattle area one fine weekend to audition some speakers. We listened to Monitor Audio, Definitive Technology, and Martin Logan's and loved them all to varying degrees (but more then the Polk HT system) but hated the price. It was a shock to find out that good speakers cost a lot of money. Discouraged, we decided that we couldn't afford them at that point in time and left the place. Before leaving the area, we went across the street to another store and listened to Studio 60's. The Studio 60's blew our mind but at $1900/pair, it was too expensive.

Fast forward to now. We were bit by the bug again and are actively looking for some speakers. This time, we did some homework (by mainly lurking here). We did the rounds again. Our initial plan was to just buy a HT system so we auditioned some HT system and liked the Definitive 800 system. So, end of story, right? Wrong.

The wife remembered the Paradigm speakers we listened to more than a year ago and wanted to listen to them again. Off we went and the Studio 60's totally ruined the Definitive Tech's 800 HT system. The price was still an issue but we were clear about one thing - No HT system for us. We decided that we would buy the best speakers we could and would slowly build a HT system (if we ever got around to it).

Having a clearer idea about what we wanted, we did the rounds again. Listened to Monitor Audio (don't remember the model but remember the model number: RS8RN) which were about $1500/pair, listened to B&W (over $2000/pair so didn't bother to find out anything about it), Listened to Def Tech (Mythos4AL), Paradigm Monitor 7, and Paradigm Studio 60s.

We liked the Studio 60's ($1900/pair) the best and the Monitor 7's ($680/pair) came in a distant second. As you can see, the cost difference is significant. To cut a long story short, is there a significant difference between Monitor 9's and 11's and the Monitor 7's? How much difference is there between Studio 60's and Monitor 9 or Monitor 11. Will it be worth our while to listen to Monitor 9 and Monitor 11? Don't know if the dealer has them in-house since we only saw the Monitor 7 in the showroom.

Thoughts? Advice? Stories? Insights?

Thanks.

thrand1

12-15-07, 05:28 PM

We liked the Studio 60's ($1900/pair) the best and the Monitor 7's ($680/pair) came in a distant second. As you can see, the cost difference is significant. To cut a long story short, is there a significant difference between Monitor 9's and 11's and the Monitor 7's? How much difference is there between Studio 60's and Monitor 9 or Monitor 11. Will it be worth our while to listen to Monitor 9 and Monitor 11? Don't know if the dealer has them in-house since we only saw the Monitor 7 in the showroom.

Thoughts? Advice? Stories? Insights?

Thanks.

Well, in terms of price differences...

Studio 60's- $1900
Studio 40's- $1500
Studio 20- $949
Monitor 11- $1250
Monitor 9- $950

I mentioned this earlier to another poster...if you liked the tonal and sound quality of the Studios, you could get a "lesser" model (although I wouldn't use that word to describe ANYTHING in the Studio line!) like maybe the Studio 20, depending on your budget.

I discovered something I didn't even know before either...the Studio 60's are essentially the Studio 40's but in a floorstanding configuration. Both have the same number of drivers (3- 7" MLP mid, 7" SPAL bass woof, 1" GPAL tweet). The 60's have a frequency response of 46Hz-22KHz while the 40's do 62Hz-22KHz owing of course to the fact that 60's are in a much larger enclosed cabinet. The 40's are slightly more sensitive (92 v. 91 dB). So, it seems like you could get most of the performance of the 60's out of the 40's except in the lower bass frequencies.

However, if the 40's are still too expensive, I might still consider the Studio 20's. The 20's use a 7" MLP mid and 1" GPAL tweeter, so you lose one driver (the 1" SPAL bass woof), but you're still probably getting similar sound quality.

If the Studio 20 would be a reasonable speaker for your budget, I might also consider the Monitor 9's, since they're right at about the same price point. The Monitor 9's have 1 6.5" MICP mid, 2 6.5" CIPC (slightly lower quality than the SPAL woof in the Studios) bass woods and 1" titanium tweet (again, lower quality than the GPAL tweet in the Studios), and are still somewhat competitive on paper- response of 51Hz-20KHz and very sensitive (96dB). I think the Monitor 9's might be the best bang for the buck in this budget range for you. The 11's basically boost the drivers of the 9 up 1" (7.5") while leaving the tweeter the same.

Your dealer probably should be able to arrange to get one of these for you if you ask and give him a few days.

Just as a general FYI, the larger you go with these speakers, you have to consider the increased costs of "matching" other speakers to them. For example, the matching center channels for the Studios are the CC-590 ($949) or CC-690 ($1249) while the matching center for the Monitors are the CC-190 ($259)/CC-290 ($430)/CC-390 ($629)- the 290 is probably the best bang for your buck in this category. You'll also need to factor in the larger recommended surround speakers if you get those as well. So, be sure to keep that in mind as you shop. Also, if you get the Studio 20's, keep in mind you may need to get stands for them depending on the layout of your room.

If you can, I would seriously consider the Monitor 9's or Studio 20's if your dealer can get them in for you. These models are situated right in the middle of the Paradigm range and I'm sure will offer you amazing performance. Hope this helps.

mhenaire

12-15-07, 06:22 PM

Considering a LCR 220 on-wall setup up in the front.

I'm having a hard time placing the surrounds though. The main listening position is on the couch which is pushed back against a 3' high wall. I could mount the surrounds on that wall but they would be slightly lower than ear position.

Should I consider in-ceilling instead?

AmulyaMani

12-15-07, 08:12 PM

Well, in terms of price differences...

Studio 60's- $1900
Studio 40's- $1500
Studio 20- $949
Monitor 11- $1250
Monitor 9- $950

I mentioned this earlier to another poster...if you liked the tonal and sound quality of the Studios, you could get a "lesser" model (although I wouldn't use that word to describe ANYTHING in the Studio line!) like maybe the Studio 20, depending on your budget.

I discovered something I didn't even know before either...the Studio 60's are essentially the Studio 40's but in a floorstanding configuration. Both have the same number of drivers (3- 7" MLP mid, 7" SPAL bass woof, 1" GPAL tweet). The 60's have a frequency response of 46Hz-22KHz while the 40's do 62Hz-22KHz owing of course to the fact that 60's are in a much larger enclosed cabinet. The 40's are slightly more sensitive (92 v. 91 dB). So, it seems like you could get most of the performance of the 60's out of the 40's except in the lower bass frequencies.

However, if the 40's are still too expensive, I might still consider the Studio 20's. The 20's use a 7" MLP mid and 1" GPAL tweeter, so you lose one driver (the 1" SPAL bass woof), but you're still probably getting similar sound quality.

If the Studio 20 would be a reasonable speaker for your budget, I might also consider the Monitor 9's, since they're right at about the same price point. The Monitor 9's have 1 6.5" MICP mid, 2 6.5" CIPC (slightly lower quality than the SPAL woof in the Studios) bass woods and 1" titanium tweet (again, lower quality than the GPAL tweet in the Studios), and are still somewhat competitive on paper- response of 51Hz-20KHz and very sensitive (96dB). I think the Monitor 9's might be the best bang for the buck in this budget range for you. The 11's basically boost the drivers of the 9 up 1" (7.5") while leaving the tweeter the same.

Your dealer probably should be able to arrange to get one of these for you if you ask and give him a few days.

Just as a general FYI, the larger you go with these speakers, you have to consider the increased costs of "matching" other speakers to them. For example, the matching center channels for the Studios are the CC-590 ($949) or CC-690 ($1249) while the matching center for the Monitors are the CC-190 ($259)/CC-290 ($430)/CC-390 ($629)- the 290 is probably the best bang for your buck in this category. You'll also need to factor in the larger recommended surround speakers if you get those as well. So, be sure to keep that in mind as you shop. Also, if you get the Studio 20's, keep in mind you may need to get stands for them depending on the layout of your room.

If you can, I would seriously consider the Monitor 9's or Studio 20's if your dealer can get them in for you. These models are situated right in the middle of the Paradigm range and I'm sure will offer you amazing performance. Hope this helps.

Thank you Thrand1.

We just auditioned the Monitor 9 and Monitor 11. I couldn't tell much of a difference between the two but my wife could. As you said, Monitor 9 and the CC-290 might be the best bang for the buck. We still thought that the Studio 60's sound was more balanced. The Monitor series sounded a little bright compared to the Studio 60's.

It's now come down to Monitor 9's or Studio 60's. Factoring in the center channel, I am leaning towards the Monitor 9' while my wife thinks we should wait a bit and get the Studio 60's. We might cut cards and see who wins.

Now, a completely different question which is a little bit off-topic: The dealer recommended Pioneer 91TXh for the receiver ($950) but from lurking on these forums, Onkyo 605 or 705 seems like the best bang for the buck. Any thoughts or suggestions?

Warpdrv

12-15-07, 08:25 PM

Thank you Thrand1.

We just auditioned the Monitor 9 and Monitor 11. I couldn't tell much of a difference between the two but my wife could. As you said, Monitor 9 and the CC-290 might be the best bang for the buck. We still thought that the Studio 60's sound was more balanced. The Monitor series sounded a little bright compared to the Studio 60's.

It's now come down to Monitor 9's or Studio 60's. Factoring in the center channel, I am leaning towards the Monitor 9' while my wife thinks we should wait a bit and get the Studio 60's. We might cut cards and see who wins.

Now, a completely different question which is a little bit off-topic: The dealer recommended Pioneer 91TXh for the receiver ($950) but from lurking on these forums, Onkyo 605 or 705 seems like the best bang for the buck. Any thoughts or suggestions?

If there is even a question in your mind... go the distance and spend the extra money for the Studio Line... they are truley worth it...
If you have to wait to add other pieces to your system, do that.....
Did you ever say what size room all this was going in...?

fleaman

12-15-07, 08:28 PM

It's now come down to Monitor 9's or Studio 60's. Factoring in the center channel, I am leaning towards the Monitor 9' while my wife thinks we should wait a bit and get the Studio 60's. We might cut cards and see who wins.

My advice is to go with the Studio's....they are a fantastic speaker and I would think it's also a great bang for the buck speaker. Although with the dollar tanking maybe not so now (seen like 3 price increases over the last year or 2).

If you're gonna keep your speakers for a while, go with the Studio's. They hold their resale value better too (I think).

I haven't heard them side by side with the Monitors though.

If you go with the monitors I bet that within 6-12 months you're gonna wish you got the studios instead ;)

Russdawg

12-15-07, 08:51 PM

Thank you Thrand1.

We just auditioned the Monitor 9 and Monitor 11. I couldn't tell much of a difference between the two but my wife could. As you said, Monitor 9 and the CC-290 might be the best bang for the buck. We still thought that the Studio 60's sound was more balanced. The Monitor series sounded a little bright compared to the Studio 60's.

It's now come down to Monitor 9's or Studio 60's. Factoring in the center channel, I am leaning towards the Monitor 9' while my wife thinks we should wait a bit and get the Studio 60's. We might cut cards and see who wins.

Now, a completely different question which is a little bit off-topic: The dealer recommended Pioneer 91TXh for the receiver ($950) but from lurking on these forums, Onkyo 605 or 705 seems like the best bang for the buck. Any thoughts or suggestions?

I have owned Paradigm Studio series and the Signature line of speakers for a long time and I can assure you that if your going to spend that kind of money on speakers you might want to reconsider going with an Onkyo 605. Not enough ummph to push the 60's and no pre-outs for an external amp. Others might disagree but I have always found that the Sigs and the Studio's like alot of power behind them and your just not going to get it with the 605.

Strictly a personal opinion.

galwar

12-15-07, 09:02 PM

fleaman

12-15-07, 09:20 PM

Can someone clarify what these numbers mean from the Paradigm speaker spec as it pertains to A/V receiver output?
Suitable Amplifier Power Range: 15 - 150 watts
Maximum Input Power : 110 watts
Does it mean that an A/V receiver hooked up to this speaker can output a maximum of 110 watts per channel or 150 watts per channel?

No. It's a meaningless spec, ignore it (really).

The first rule is that you can not have too much amp power for speakers. But amps (power) cost $$$ to do it well and cleanly.

It also depends on how you will use your speakers. If in a HT set-up with a powered subwoofer and the others speakers crossed over in the lows, then you would need less power than running your towers full range.

It would be easier to just list the actual speaker you are looking at and we (AVS) can recommend an amp/receiver power range to get.

AmulyaMani

12-15-07, 10:09 PM

If there is even a question in your mind... go the distance and spend the extra money for the Studio Line... they are truley worth it...
If you have to wait to add other pieces to your system, do that.....
Did you ever say what size room all this was going in...?

Thank you Warpdrv.
I am attaching a jpeg of our living room. What do you think?

If you go with the monitors I bet that within 6-12 months you're gonna wish you got the studios instead

Thanks fleaman. That's what I am worried about.

I have owned Paradigm Studio series and the Signature line of speakers for a long time and I can assure you that if your going to spend that kind of money on speakers you might want to reconsider going with an Onkyo 605. Not enough ummph to push the 60's and no pre-outs for an external amp. Others might disagree but I have always found that the Sigs and the Studio's like alot of power behind them and your just not going to get it with the 605.

Strictly a personal opinion.

Thanks Russdawg. What do you recommend?

milky way

12-15-07, 10:13 PM

I really shouldn't come to here. I had my mind set on Studio 100, now I have to listen to Signature... Does anyone have the price of Signature series? I did not find it on Audio Emporium's list. Lucky me, I have no interest in HT, two speakers cost so much less than seven.

Warpdrv

12-15-07, 10:30 PM

JakeK

12-15-07, 11:00 PM

My advice is to go with the Studio's....they are a fantastic speaker and I would think it's also a great bang for the buck speaker. Although with the dollar tanking maybe not so now (seen like 3 price increases over the last year or 2).

If you're gonna keep your speakers for a while, go with the Studio's. They hold their resale value better too (I think).

I haven't heard them side by side with the Monitors though.

If you go with the monitors I bet that within 6-12 months you're gonna wish you got the studios instead ;)

When I bought my Studio 20's this past summer, I was able to hear the Studio 20's side by side with the Monitor Atoms and the 20's were much more balanced and nowhere nears as bright as the Atoms.

Though the Studio 60's were outside of my budget I did compare them to the Monitor 9's while I was buying my 20's and I thought the 60's were able to produce a much richer sound than the 9's. I was testing them with Copeland's Fanfare for the Common Man, and the horns on the 9's were very bright compared to the richness the 60's were putting out. The bass had a much more hollow feel on the 9's compared to the 60's as well.

I'd go with the 60's. You'll be very happy with them.

fleaman

12-15-07, 11:02 PM

Hey there Milky way... that Audio Emporium is my dealer...and he doesn't carry the sigs.... so he doesn't price them.... He even said that the difference in sound isn't worth the extra money... but I have to say that he is a great big B&W fanboy.. and told me that if someone was after a ferrari, why would they want to look at a
corvette... I didn't care for that comment...

Good! 'cos dealers are horrible places for advice! There's very high odds that he gets a better cut on B&W's than Paradigms.

Although I've also heard the differences between sig's and Studios is small. The Sig's have a much more expensive cabinet and finish and that's probably where most of the extra costs are involved. It's more like you are getting (paying) a finer piece of furniture with a tiny bit of better audio thrown in for free.

As for B&W's vs. Paradigm or other brands: This is where it gets kinda subjective. If you like the B&W sound, then it's for you. I'd say the B&W's are more clinical and the Paradigm Studios are more neutral in a musical way. It's more like comparing a Lamborghini to a Ferrari.

Russdawg

12-16-07, 01:06 AM

Thanks Russdawg. What do you recommend?

How much "max" do you want to spend on a receiver? If you don't need HDMI and want something that sounds absolutely unbelievable for the money I would take a look at a Cambridge Audio AZUR 540R v2 receiver. It will pretty much take care of anything else under a grand Sound Quality wise. You are giving up some of the newer technology (HDMI etc) but it is great at 500 dollars right now.

I also like the Marantz 7002/8002 series receivers for the money. My sister runs 5 Paradigm Studio 20's with a 7002 and it sounds excellent. Goggle for prices.

I run Arcam stuff but it's a bit more money....Just try and audition if you can, that's always the best bet.

thrand1

12-16-07, 09:02 AM

Now, a completely different question which is a little bit off-topic: The dealer recommended Pioneer 91TXh for the receiver ($950) but from lurking on these forums, Onkyo 605 or 705 seems like the best bang for the buck. Any thoughts or suggestions?

As others mentioned, those are some very power hungry speakers. If the dealer recommended that Pioneer and your budget is around $900, take a serious look at the Onkyo TX-SR805. It has a big power boost over the 605/705 at 130 watts per channel, so your speakers might be more happy running off of that. Also, Amazon has recently been offering the 805 for an insane $715 with free shipping...I'd take the 805 and extra 30wpc for about an $85 difference over the 705, which is retailing for about $630 on Amazon as well.

Onkyo 805 on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-SR805-Channel-Theater-Receiver/dp/B000OBJW1S******pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1197813683&sr=8-1)

Warpdrv

12-16-07, 11:47 AM

I bought a Pioneer elite 82, because it did everything I wanted and had pre-outs and HDMI switching, knowing I would add an amp later... it worked fine and when I add the Rotel 1095 amp, it was much better at ref. levels... It works excellent as a pre pro, until I decide to change up to something better in the future...

Nothing wrong with doing things in stages, The Studio's really benefit greatly with more power, but they still sounded great with what I had...

kencrouch

12-16-07, 04:51 PM

Since you're a dealer, can you recommend an amp for the S6 and C3? I have an old (15+ years) Adcom GFA-555 driving the S6. Its sounds great, because that's all I heard with the S6. Would I notice a big improvement with another amp?

Also, does it make a difference the fact that I drive the C3 center with the amp built into my Denon 4802 A/V Receiver? Do I really need/want the same amp to drive the center and front/mains? My dealer told me it makes a difference.

What is your unbaised opinion?
Thanks in advance,
Steve

I also run an Adcom 555 with Signatures (S8) - I too use the AVR for the center channel - NAD T763. Our experience is that it works great - the system is in our great room with 17' ceiling and the sound is wonderful - no noticeable problem with the center (C3) at all.

Dan Hitchman

12-16-07, 06:17 PM

Why is that?

I used to have 16 gauge wire going to a pair of Advent 6003 speakers when I first got started into home theater years ago. I then switched to some 12 gauge wire of the same length (both were about 15 feet long). It was a noticeable difference, especially in the treble. Like the 14 gauge wire was constricting the power going to the speaker or something.

Just to be on the safe side, I've gone with 12 or 10 gauge ever since.

I like the Belden cable better than the Monoprice.com stuff. The latter may be a bit cheaper, but the quality of the Belden is better (also in-wall fire rated) and it has tested better for signal attinuation and frequency sweeps (especially over long lengths).

Dan

Dan Hitchman

12-16-07, 06:22 PM

On a difference note, does anyone have a recommendation for a good stand (or stands in this case) for the Studio CC-690 v.4? Preferably metal and shot and/or sand fillable.

I don't want to spend hundreds and hundreds per stand, but if there's something a bit more reasonable I'm all ears.

Dan

Warpdrv

12-16-07, 06:57 PM

On a difference note, does anyone have a recommendation for a good stand (or stands in this case) for the Studio CC-690 v.4? Preferably metal and shot and/or sand fillable.
Dan

http://www.standsandmounts.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=279

http://www.racksandstands.com/asp/show_cat.asp?catid=276

Try those for starters, but search google for "Center Channel Speaker Stand"

You'll find something with enought time invested...

Personally I like these... but hey... Im all about heavy duty.. http://www.soundanchors.com/page60.html

AmulyaMani

12-16-07, 07:07 PM

How much "max" do you want to spend on a receiver? If you don't need HDMI and want something that sounds absolutely unbelievable for the money I would take a look at a Cambridge Audio AZUR 540R v2 receiver. It will pretty much take care of anything else under a grand Sound Quality wise. You are giving up some of the newer technology (HDMI etc) but it is great at 500 dollars right now.

I also like the Marantz 7002/8002 series receivers for the money. My sister runs 5 Paradigm Studio 20's with a 7002 and it sounds excellent. Goggle for prices.

I run Arcam stuff but it's a bit more money....Just try and audition if you can, that's always the best bet.

Would like HDMI capability since we will probably buy a HD TV soon...Googling Marantz 7002 shows that it costs about $1400. Wow! that's rich for us. We were planning to spend about $600 or so...now we know that we might have to up our receiver budget too...

As others mentioned, those are some very power hungry speakers. If the dealer recommended that Pioneer and your budget is around $900, take a serious look at the Onkyo TX-SR805. It has a big power boost over the 605/705 at 130 watts per channel, so your speakers might be more happy running off of that. Also, Amazon has recently been offering the 805 for an insane $715 with free shipping...I'd take the 805 and extra 30wpc for about an $85 difference over the 705, which is retailing for about $630 on Amazon as well.

Onkyo 805 on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-SR805-Channel-Theater-Receiver/dp/B000OBJW1S******pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1197813683&sr=8-1)
Our initial budget was about $600 or so, that's why I was looking at 605's. Looks like we might have to increase that a little bit. Thanks for the link. The Onkyo TX-SR805 looks good. Might end up getting that. Any other receivers we should look at in that price range? Any advice much appreciated.

I bought a Pioneer elite 82, because it did everything I wanted and had pre-outs and HDMI switching, knowing I would add an amp later... it worked fine and when I add the Rotel 1095 amp, it was much better at ref. levels... It works excellent as a pre pro, until I decide to change up to something better in the future...

Nothing wrong with doing things in stages, The Studio's really benefit greatly with more power, but they still sounded great with what I had...

Thank you. Pioneer Elite 82 looks good too and is a little cheaper than the 805.

When I bought my Studio 20's this past summer, I was able to hear the Studio 20's side by side with the Monitor Atoms and the 20's were much more balanced and nowhere nears as bright as the Atoms.

Though the Studio 60's were outside of my budget I did compare them to the Monitor 9's while I was buying my 20's and I thought the 60's were able to produce a much richer sound than the 9's. I was testing them with Copeland's Fanfare for the Common Man, and the horns on the 9's were very bright compared to the richness the 60's were putting out. The bass had a much more hollow feel on the 9's compared to the 60's as well.

I'd go with the 60's. You'll be very happy with them.

We did cut cards and I lost. So we will be getting the Studio 60's. Might have to wait a bit though (hopefully not). Is it a good idea to get the center channel at the same time? What if we get the V.4's now and can't add the center channel till much later when the new models come out? Will the older version speakers work well with a newer model center channel? Another option we have is to get the V.3 center channel. Will that be okay?

Once again, Thank you all for taking the time to reply. This forum is AWESOME!

Looks like this will be what we will buy:
L/R: Studio 60's.
Center channel: don't know yet. Will depend on what you experts recommend.
Receiver: Onkyo 805 or Pioneer Elite 82 or ???

That's it for now. Hopefully, we will be able to buy the other speakers one day. Between the grand entrance of our first baby around Christmas and my wife's tuition in spring, I doubt it. But hey, life is good and we are least getting the speakers we fell in love with. Now if I can get about 15% off on the whole thing, this December will be the best December of my life. Actually, this December will be the best December of my life regardless :D.

Warpdrv

12-16-07, 07:55 PM

Looks like this will be what we will buy:
L/R: Studio 60's.
Center channel: don't know yet. Will depend on what you experts recommend.
Receiver: Onkyo 805 or Pioneer Elite 82 or ???

That's it for now. Hopefully, we will be able to buy the other speakers one day. Between the grand entrance of our first baby around Christmas and my wife's tuition in spring, I doubt it. But hey, life is good and we are least getting the speakers we fell in love with. Now if I can get about 15% off on the whole thing, this December will be the best December of my life. Actually, this December will be the best December of my life regardless :D.

Make sure your Center Channel matches your speaker, either of the Paradigm Studio Center Channels will be fine.. Don't forget, that you can buy used, and get great deals... www.audiogon.com (http://www.audiogon.com)

I misquoted you what I was using for my receiver, I am using the Pioneer Elite 81, as a Pre/Pro with a Rotel RMB-1095 Amp works perfectly for my purposes.
The Pioneer Elite 81 is a great receiver possibly for cheaper, and will output to an external amp perfectly, if your interested upgrading down the line. That receiver doesn't have Upscaling but I don't think you need it, and the upscaling chip on these earlier models aren't as good as the newer generations, so I would skip it. Search ebay for "VSX-81TXV"

Good Luck on your hunt...

galwar

12-16-07, 09:49 PM

No. It's a meaningless spec, ignore it (really).

The first rule is that you can not have too much amp power for speakers. But amps (power) cost $$$ to do it well and cleanly.

It also depends on how you will use your speakers. If in a HT set-up with a powered subwoofer and the others speakers crossed over in the lows, then you would need less power than running your towers full range.

It would be easier to just list the actual speaker you are looking at and we (AVS) can recommend an amp/receiver power range to get.

I will be using my system primarily for watching TV and movies. Here is what I am going with:
F/C/R: Millenia 20 (suitable amp range: 15-150 watts, max input power: 110 watts)
Surrounds: ADP-190 (suitable amp range: 15-100 watts, max input power: 80 watts)
Subwoofer: Ultracube 10

It is unlikely that I will crank up the volume too high while using the system. I was recommended the Denon 2308CI A/V receiver by the dealer. Is this a good receiver for this configuration?

Also, if the speaker numbers don't mean much, can I upgrade to say the 3808CI which outputs more - 130 watts/channel. Is it possible for me to accidentally damage the speakers since the receiver can output more than the speaker "spec"?

051473

12-16-07, 10:12 PM

I will be using my system primarily for watching TV and movies. Here is what I am going with:
F/C/R: Millenia 20 (suitable amp range: 15-150 watts, max input power: 110 watts)
Surrounds: ADP-190 (suitable amp range: 15-100 watts, max input power: 80 watts)
Subwoofer: Ultracube 10

It is unlikely that I will crank up the volume too high while using the system. I was recommended the Denon 2308CI A/V receiver by the dealer. Is this a good receiver for this configuration?

Also, if the speaker numbers don't mean much, can I upgrade to say the 3808CI which outputs more - 130 watts/channel. Is it possible for me to accidentally damage the speakers since the receiver can output more than the speaker "spec"?

What will damage your speakers is "dirty power" or clipping. You will not have a problem with a 3808 powering your system. If your amp is producing good, clean power the more watts the better.

Warpdrv

12-16-07, 10:13 PM

Also, if the speaker numbers don't mean much, can I upgrade to say the 3808CI which outputs more - 130 watts/channel. Is it possible for me to accidentally damage the speakers since the receiver can output more than the speaker "spec"?

Actually that receiver will work just fine with those speakers. Generally the specs of receivers are not with all channels driven, but just one... As the powersupplys for receivers are not that great especially with all channels driven. They will not provide as much power as stated. It is likely that with all channels running you would be lucky to get 1/2 of those specs.

fleaman

12-16-07, 10:19 PM

Also, if the speaker numbers don't mean much, can I upgrade to say the 3808CI which outputs more - 130 watts/channel. Is it possible for me to accidentally damage the speakers since the receiver can output more than the speaker "spec"?

You will more likely damage speakers from not enough amp power than the other way around. I know it sounds the opposite from logic, but the reason why is when you turn up the volume on an underpowered system, the amp starts to distort/clip at higher volumes, the increasing distortion is what damages your speakers....tweeters are usually the first to go.

At any given volume a amp with more power (RMS watts) will output less distortion than a lower powered amp at the same given volume. I'm making this very simplistic...there is a limit, you still can damage your speakers with a very large amp at high volumes, yet a smaller amp would probably damage your speakers way faster than the bigger amp at the same high volume.

Also, when you have more amps (RMS), you can drive bigger speakers, and at higher volumes, cleanly. Even if you get more amps than needed now, you can future proof your system a bit if you upgrade to bigger speakers or speakers that are harder to drive. Another thing to remember is the bass/low notes is what takes up a good 80-90% of your amp power. Bass is really difficult to drive cleanly, even at moderate volumes...this is where reserve amp power really comes in handy.

rezultz

12-17-07, 11:27 AM

T100

12-17-07, 12:07 PM

I have a 5.1 system cc170, micro's, cs-60r-sm, sub. My question is can I use the cs-60r- sm and make into a 7.1 system by adding them to the rears. I am using a 605 onkyo receiver.

thrand1

12-17-07, 12:57 PM

Hi guys- After getting a lot of education from this forum, I've finally decided what I want for my new 5.1 Paradigm system:
L/R Millenia 200's
C Millenia 20
Surround ADP390
Sub Ultracube 10

I'm having a hard time trying to price this system out...does anyone know what these components cost? Paradigm doesnt have prices on their website.
Also, what are the major differences between the Millenia ADP and the ADP390?
Thanks!!! and happy holidays.

Millenia 200s: $1299/pair
Millenia 20: $499
ADP390: $379/ea * 2 = $758
UltraCube: $849

The whole shebang: ~$3405

Source: http://www.audioemporium.com/2008catalog.pdf

I bet if you buy this all at the same time, your dealer might give you a break on it, maybe 3-5%?

The differences between Millenia and the ADP-390:

Millenia: 2 1" tweets, 2 4" mids, 1 6" bass woof.
ADP-390: 2 1" tweets, 2 4.5" mids, 1 7.5" bass woof.

The Millenia has a slightly lower frequency extension (95Hz, extension to 62Hz) than the ADP (100Hz, extension to 70Hz). Others can correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think if you're getting an all-Millenia system, the Millenia surround would be sonically matched to the other speakers. Now, since it's surrounds we're talking and not mixing mains, you may not notice a difference. I can't find the pricing for the Millenia ADP however, so that might be a question for your dealer.

thrand1

12-17-07, 01:07 PM

Can anyone tell me if the ADP surrounds (I'm getting the 190's) come with any sort of mounting hardware, or do I need to get something from Home Depot? If so, what would you all recommend?

jkhome

12-17-07, 02:19 PM

Personally I like these... but hey... Im all about heavy duty.. [url]http://www.soundanchors.com/page60.html

I use Sound Anchors on my maggies, very decent stands...I'll have to remember your link when I upgrade to a cc690.

JakeK

12-17-07, 10:03 PM

Would like HDMI capability since we will probably buy a HD TV soon...Googling Marantz 7002 shows that it costs about $1400. Wow! that's rich for us. We were planning to spend about $600 or so...now we know that we might have to up our receiver budget too...

Our initial budget was about $600 or so, that's why I was looking at 605's. Looks like we might have to increase that a little bit. Thanks for the link. The Onkyo TX-SR805 looks good. Might end up getting that. Any other receivers we should look at in that price range? Any advice much appreciated.

Thank you. Pioneer Elite 82 looks good too and is a little cheaper than the 805.

We did cut cards and I lost. So we will be getting the Studio 60's. Might have to wait a bit though (hopefully not). Is it a good idea to get the center channel at the same time? What if we get the V.4's now and can't add the center channel till much later when the new models come out? Will the older version speakers work well with a newer model center channel? Another option we have is to get the V.3 center channel. Will that be okay?

Once again, Thank you all for taking the time to reply. This forum is AWESOME!

Looks like this will be what we will buy:
L/R: Studio 60's.
Center channel: don't know yet. Will depend on what you experts recommend.
Receiver: Onkyo 805 or Pioneer Elite 82 or ???

That's it for now. Hopefully, we will be able to buy the other speakers one day. Between the grand entrance of our first baby around Christmas and my wife's tuition in spring, I doubt it. But hey, life is good and we are least getting the speakers we fell in love with. Now if I can get about 15% off on the whole thing, this December will be the best December of my life. Actually, this December will be the best December of my life regardless :D.

If you can afford to get either the CC-590 or 690 then by all means do it. My budget was only for two speakers so I went with the best my budget would allow.

I might be in the minority, but I've had bad experiences with Onkyos as of late. It just seems the quality isn't there anymore, so I'd be more inclined to go with the Pio, but I would also recommend the Marantz SR line or Denon's AVR-888/988.

galwar

12-17-07, 11:22 PM

You will more likely damage speakers from not enough amp power than the other way around. I know it sounds the opposite from logic, but the reason why is when you turn up the volume on an underpowered system, the amp starts to distort/clip at higher volumes, the increasing distortion is what damages your speakers....tweeters are usually the first to go.

At any given volume a amp with more power (RMS watts) will output less distortion than a lower powered amp at the same given volume. I'm making this very simplistic...there is a limit, you still can damage your speakers with a very large amp at high volumes, yet a smaller amp would probably damage your speakers way faster than the bigger amp at the same high volume.

Also, when you have more amps (RMS), you can drive bigger speakers, and at higher volumes, cleanly. Even if you get more amps than needed now, you can future proof your system a bit if you upgrade to bigger speakers or speakers that are harder to drive. Another thing to remember is the bass/low notes is what takes up a good 80-90% of your amp power. Bass is really difficult to drive cleanly, even at moderate volumes...this is where reserve amp power really comes in handy.

Actually, your explanation makes a lot of sense. I think I will go for the higher powered amp (3808CI). I am thinking that I may not need to crank it up as much as I might otherwise have to with a lower powered amp to get similar sound levels. Thanks.

bb09

12-18-07, 11:07 AM

A lot of people use Atom Monitors as rear surrounds in lieu of the ADP-190s. They're not dipoles, so sound will not be dispersed and placement may be more difficult, but they're the closest to your budget at about $260/pair. However, you still have to take into consideration how you will mount them (if you were planning to), and the additional costs of doing that.

What about the Cinema ADP's for surrounds with the Phantoms? Would they be better than the Atoms (both are around the same price). My room is very small (about 7-10 ft). The couch is against the back wall and the rears are right next to the couch (one either side) on the back wall.

thrand1

12-18-07, 01:11 PM

What about the Cinema ADP's for surrounds with the Phantoms? Would they be better than the Atoms (both are around the same price). My room is very small (about 7-10 ft). The couch is against the back wall and the rears are right next to the couch (one either side) on the back wall.

Depends on what you're looking for out of your rear speakers. I think the Atom would deliver much better bass response (5.5" woofer versus the 3.5" woofs in the Cinemas), and it would dig deeper (90Hz on low end with extension to 50 vs. the Cinemas 120Hz on low end with extension to 80). However, if you're looking for a speaker that's very flexible in terms of installation options, then go for the ADPs. Your room seems like it would be hard to integrate Atoms or any other bookshelf speakers on a stand, so the ADPs would be much more flexible in that regard.

Again, I think if you're looking for a rear that will still deliver some good response and oomph, then I would take the Atoms; however, if you're just looking for rears to fill in and even out the sound with more flexible install options, go for the ADPs.

I think with those Phantom floorstanders you might have a hard time even knowing the Cinema ADPs were there...I just think those 3.5" woofers are going to have a hard time to balance out with those mains, but if it's within your budget, then go for it. I think they're around $120/ea.

mhenaire

12-18-07, 05:03 PM

AVSnooby

12-18-07, 07:50 PM

Would like HDMI capability since we will probably buy a HD TV soon...Googling Marantz 7002 shows that it costs about $1400. Wow! that's rich for us. We were planning to spend about $600 or so...now we know that we might have to up our receiver budget too...
.

If you didn't make a purchase yet, you can get the Marantz 7001 refurbed (accessories4less) at your original price point. I just bought a brand new one that my dealer was trying to move out to make room for the 7002s and am totally blown away with it. I'm using it with a pair of Studio 40s V3 and a 12" Rythmik direct servo sub. I also tried the Onkyo 805, but found the Marantz to be noticeably better regarding SQ.

I also noticed a few others mentioning getting the Ultracube 10". For about the same money, I'd highly recommend the Rythmik 12" DS. It is a DIY kit. You can get the speaker and amp for about $550 and you can get the cabinet built for another $300. I built mine myself using cherry veneer to match my Studios and the cabinet only cost me $100 in materials. I have never heard the ultracube 10", but I seriously doubt any 10" sub can hold a candle to it. Just something to consider.

milky way

12-21-07, 02:05 AM

If you didn't make a purchase yet, you can get the Marantz 7001 refurbed (accessories4less) at your original price point. I just bought a brand new one that my dealer was trying to move out to make room for the 7002s and am totally blown away with it. I'm using it with a pair of Studio 40s V3 and a 12" Rythmik direct servo sub. I also tried the Onkyo 805, but found the Marantz to be noticeably better regarding SQ.

I also noticed a few others mentioning getting the Ultracube 10". For about the same money, I'd highly recommend the Rythmik 12" DS. It is a DIY kit. You can get the speaker and amp for about $550 and you can get the cabinet built for another $300. I built mine myself using cherry veneer to match my Studios and the cabinet only cost me $100 in materials. I have never heard the ultracube 10", but I seriously doubt any 10" sub can hold a candle to it. Just something to consider.

Hsu's VTF-2/VTF-3 MK3 Subwoofer cost $500 - $630. They got good reviews. How do they compare?

jkhome

12-21-07, 06:31 AM

For about the same money, I'd highly recommend the Rythmik 12" DS. It is a DIY kit. You can get the speaker and amp for about $550 and you can get the cabinet built for another $300. I built mine myself using cherry veneer to match my Studios and the cabinet only cost me $100 in materials. I have never heard the ultracube 10", but I seriously doubt any 10" sub can hold a candle to it. Just something to consider.

I just ordered a couple of Brian’s non-servo 12" drivers for a couple of sealed subs to go with my Magnepan MMGs. I went with the non-servo version because they have a higher roll off rating (I want to use them as above 80 Hz. bass drivers), and they were on sale.

I’m debating whether to build 2 enclosures, or just buy two Parts Express boxes. I have all the tools necessary, but from past experience with other diy projects, I would probably spend less money buying prebuilt boxes.:D

Hsu's VTF-2/VTF-3 MK3 Subwoofer cost $500 - $630. They got good reviews. How do they compare?
I use a 10-year-old (?) 12" HSU tabletop sub with my Studio 60v3 system. It has been a fine, dependable sub, and I would recommend HSU to anyone. But since the Rythmiks use servo technology, I would think that they would be closer in performance to the Paradigm servo sub models. I plan on building one or two of the Rythmik 15" servo kits for my Paradigm system later next year, depending on how the maggie project goes.

Guess it comes down to whether you prefer the sound of sealed vs ported subs. Then again, the Rythmiks can be built in either a sealed or ported version.

AVSnooby

12-21-07, 06:49 AM

Hsu's VTF-2/VTF-3 MK3 Subwoofer cost $500 - $630. They got good reviews. How do they compare?

I honestly have no idea how they compare, but after a couple of weeks of reading on the sub woofer forum I read several posts where people were recommending the Rythmik Servos. I then went to the DIY forum, and read nothing but positive reviews on them. So I decided to give one a try, and it is superb! I built the box based on the plans from Rythmik's website, but you should be able to get a cabinet builder to make one finished for about $300 - $350.

I've heard a few other subs that my friends have, but never in the same setting for a head to head comparison. I feel safe in saying the Rythmik is the best of the ones I've heard, but I did not hear any HSUs.

Here is a good review comparing the Rythmik DS12 to a Velodyne HGS12: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=827369

uabcar

12-21-07, 10:31 AM

I'm in the same boat, I have a couch on the back wall and considering ADPs mounted on that same wall.

However, my understanding was that good placement meant to aim drivers front and back (not side to side), which is very hard to do when you only have a back wall to work with.

Am I missing anything?
Sounds like I had (and still have) a very similar setup- I originally had Phantoms + cc170 up front and a set of titans (from the old performance series also) as my rears. My seats are about 2 feet from the wall (although when reclined fully my head is only about 6 inches away from the wall). Due to room constraints the titans are located overhead and angled at about a 45 toward the middle of the room- on each end of my row of 4 seats (about 6ft high and maybe 10-11ft apart). I upgraded the fronts to M9's + a CC290 earlier this year but still use the old titans in the rear.

I've not had a chance to use ADP's so I can't comment on their impact but I can say I'm always amazed at how good the surround imaging is given the poor locations of my rears. I almost never notice the sound coming from one or the other speakers- rather it's coming from the correct direction (if that makes sense). I'm very happy overall. I've considered upgrading the titans to a new set of Atom v5's but I'm in no hurry- want to get the new Denon 3808 first ;-).

All that said, my vote is for Atoms- only because it's working very well for me.

Good luck.

milky way

12-25-07, 05:27 PM

My "evil" dealer finally had Studio 100 and Signature 4 set up a few days ago. He assured me he will make same amout of money whichever I choose, a little deeper discount if I choose Signature 4. Why not Signature 6? I agreed with him, if one wanted to spend that kind of mony, it's better Signature 4 + a sub, or a bit more to Signature 8; Signature 6 is often left out.
Not very surprising, everything is a bit more (defined) when comparing Signature 4 to Studio 100 - sold, sold, almost! I know what I don't like, I brought "Kitaro - The essential (XRCD)"; oh, the treble - it's Martin Logan high ( I really can't explain, it made me nervous each time I listened to Martin Logan.) My ears are always faituge to the highly detailed treble. My dealer will break in Signature 4 more to see whether relax the high. I am still considering Signature 4.
You should really give Signature a listen, I though Studio 100 was "it" for me.

Edllguy

12-25-07, 11:35 PM

What gauge speaker wire do you guys suggest I buy for my Paradigm ADP190's rear channels that I will soon pick up?

Will be hooked up to my soon to be owned Elite 94 receiver. I want very good to excellent qaulity. Is the general rule that more expensive wire go to front speakers (M9's, CC290) and cheaper wire for the rears. Since this is mostly new to me I thought I would ask since I don't want to go cheap by accident and having to repurchase the speaker wires all over again.

"Doing it right the first time"
Thanks

Dan Hitchman

12-26-07, 01:59 AM

www.bluejeanscable.com

Belden 12 or 10 gauge speaker wire is top quality, in-wall graded stuff and not bad price-wise. 10 gauge especially if it's a long run.

JoeFigueiredo

12-26-07, 10:39 AM

When setting speaker crossovers on an AVR, do you add 20Hz for the setting to the DIN specifications or do you add it from the lowest number on the frequency range?

For example, a CC-370's DIN is 57Hz, so the setting would be 80Hz, but it's lowest freq. range is 100Hz, so the setting would be 120Hz.

Which one? I'm thinking DIN?

wookiered

12-26-07, 04:15 PM

milky way

12-26-07, 05:28 PM

I don't think we are allowed to post price. Here is a link to 2006 price, you got the idea.

http://www.bradfordshifi.com/prices.html

No, no, Signature 4 + a sub is not a substitute of Signature 8. We didn't spend a lot of time (about two hours) comparing S4 and S6, however, ALMOST CRAZY we can say, S6 = S4 + mid/low end enhancement. Because I really can live with S4 alone - thus where a sub comes in. You get more noticeable "improvement" when you spend money on a sub than on Signature 6.
I think I am using my brain instead of my heart to justify.

Warpdrv

12-26-07, 05:57 PM

First of all. Whats the price difference? A lot of people post the audio emporium link, but i don't signatures series isn't on there.

Is it wishful thinking to hope that the sig 4's with a sub can sound just as good as the 6 or 8. What do the extra drivers offer you? Fuller sound?

Like many people i want a great set up but I need it to do double duty. If i am going to have a sub anyway, I am wondering how much better a crossedover floorstander is anyway...

I would love to do the comparision yourself, but the only paradigm dealer in my area isn't so generous with their time or equipment. Especially if you arn't buying any time soon.:mad:

On the first page of audiogon, search for paradigm.
I found tons of sig series there...

Now what is the size of your room, if its not huge, you might be able to use the Sig 4's just fine. In fact some found they were great. I personally wouldn't go without a sub even with Sig 8's.. just not enough bass in my eyes.

I know the Studio 40's to me sounded better then the 60's.
and when your x-over to sub, they sounded amazing.

DJN

12-26-07, 06:12 PM

oztech

12-26-07, 06:29 PM

Hoping for some input regarding new receiver to drive my Paradim Studio 100's. I am thinking of swapping out my B&K B&K 7250 & Reference 20 (200W) with the Denon 4308ci (140W). I would like to get 7.1 and some of the advance features. My concern is whether I will notice a sound difference. My system is used mostly for HT. I will be adding SA-25's for side speakers. Back's are Monitor 80's, CC 570 and a Velodyne DD-15. I can get a great deal on the Denon system. Any input would be appreciated.

if the room is not to big and open to other rooms and if you don't crank it real
loud and cross the sub over at least at 70hz you should be fine the 60w difference probably amounts to 1 db if it is a true 140w.size of room and
volume measured in db would give more correct answers.

The Natural

12-26-07, 07:41 PM

unavol

12-27-07, 10:51 AM

I'm pretty new to the good audio scene. I'm looking to begin upgrading my front R/L speakers with some fairly inexpensive bookshelf speakers and have some questions. I've listened to several brands (Paradigm, B&W, DefTech, Polk, etc) and really liked the Paradigm Monitor speakers the best within my price range. There is another line of speakers that I can not audition that I have read good things about. Have any of you have compared the JBL Studio L line to the Paradigm Monitor line. The JBL L830 to the Atoms or Mini Monitor, in particular. I'll be using them about 50/50 on music/movies in a 20x14x8 (LxWxH) room and I have an 50wpc 7.1 harman/kardon receiver. Thanks in advance for whatever help you can offer.

caesar1

12-27-07, 10:57 AM

Is there a major difference between the ADP-590's as surrounds vs. just using the Studio 20's? From what I read they have a more surround effect, but it is a huge difference in "making the roof disapear" to warrant the price difference?

That's just asking is there a difference between directs and dipoles for surrounds.

The answer is yes.

If a 5.1 setup, with a small number of seats in the room, directs are fine as side surrounds.

I think with 7.1 -- the sides are better as dipoles. Rears as directs.

Its harder to mount Studio 20s on the wall though. Most people mount side surrounds on the wall.

bb09

12-27-07, 11:15 AM

Ok, I went to 6th Ave electronics (my local authorized dealer) to look at surround speakers to go with my Phantom L/R and my CC-170 center. Since I wanted to keep it around $250 or less, it was recommended to me on this site that people use ATOM speakers as rear speakers. I also wanted to check out the Cinema ADP's. My room is small and my current speakers are on stands directly next to my head. One between a couch and a recliner and one between the couch and a love seat.

The ATOM's are TOO BIG for my setup. The guy at the store recommended either the cinema ADP's (~$220) and mount them on the wall above and on either side of the couch. Since they are Di-polar, they should fill the room. He also recommended the Cinema 110's as an alternative. He said to mount those just above ear level on the outside walls so that both speakers face in.
The 110's are ~$200.

Any thoughts on this? Based on my description above, *should* either of these options work? Any thoughts on which configuration would be better?

Hopstretch

12-27-07, 03:09 PM

oztech

12-27-07, 07:05 PM

the 100's imo are the best in the studio line but mine is 50/50 music and ht.

051473

12-27-07, 08:34 PM

Any owners' thoughts on Studio 60s vs. Studio 100s in a 4000 cubic foot home theater setup? CC-690 center, 7*200W amp. Would likely put any money saved on the fronts into a second, nearfield sub. Decisions, decisions.

I went with 100's because I listen to allot of music. If this is a dedicated HT I think the 60's with an extra sub is a great choice.

Warpdrv

12-28-07, 09:39 PM

Any owners' thoughts on Studio 60s vs. Studio 100s in a 4000 cubic foot home theater setup? CC-690 center, 7*200W amp. Would likely put any money saved on the fronts into a second, nearfield sub. Decisions, decisions.

If you got the money... do it... get the 100's for that size room.. They just sound fuller to me compared side by side to the 60's... even crossed over at 80hz.

Definately get the 200 wpc amp.. Those speakers just come alive with the right amount of power... :)

Thats the setup I have with 20's and adp, fantastic... :)

snaimpally

12-28-07, 10:02 PM

dpnaugle

12-29-07, 01:46 PM

Any owners' thoughts on Studio 60s vs. Studio 100s in a 4000 cubic foot home theater setup? CC-690 center, 7*200W amp. Would likely put any money saved on the fronts into a second, nearfield sub. Decisions, decisions.

I faced a similar decision last year and went with the 60's and 590 b/c I live in an apartment. I have been completely satisfied. However, today I would probably go with the 100's and 690 b/c they are so damn beautiful.

I plan on adding an amp but have yet to pull the trigger. What amp are you considering?

dave33ca

12-29-07, 05:47 PM

my set-up.. not sure if this is where this post should go but what the hell.. they are paradigms.

http://community.webshots.com/album/561933464MdMQCU

Hopstretch

12-29-07, 07:17 PM

I plan on adding an amp but have yet to pull the trigger. What amp are you considering?

Either an Emotiva MPS-2 (http://www.emotiva.com/mps2.html) or an Outlaw 7200 (http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7200.html). People seem to like them both.

jkhome

12-29-07, 10:25 PM

Any comments on these. I had been thinking about getting the HSU system but read a review in which the professional reviewers said they had difficulties in getting proper speaker placement. Then I stumbled on the Paradigm 90s. I have owned many Paradigms including the 7se and the original Monitors and currently have two Atoms (or they may be Titans).

Any Cinema 90 owners please tell me about your systems, pros and cons. Thanks!

Don't own the 90s, (have Studios) but I did set up an HSU Ventriloquist system plus STF2 sub for my son, mainly for near-field gaming. The HSUs use a single full range 2 1/2" driver on the satellites, and has an optional switch to use part of the center to reproduce the lower frequencies of the left/right front speakers.

After I set them up, played some music to check them out. At least on one occasion, I heard a weird misplaced sound that came out of the center, that didn't sound correct. Other material sounded fine. The system worked great for what my son was using it for.

Since the Paradigms are more of a conventional system, I would go for it.

Warpdrv

12-30-07, 04:23 PM

my set-up.. not sure if this is where this post should go but what the hell.. they are paradigms.

http://community.webshots.com/album/561933464MdMQCU

Whooaa... Dude...

You really need to put those grills on... Im not sure anyone wants to see your condoms in full view like that...

Dam if those drivers don't remind me of that every time I see them..

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2132817500055519889IpXSRR?vhost=good-times

joffer

12-30-07, 06:11 PM

Warpdrv

12-31-07, 04:03 PM

Looking to upgrade my sub.

Right now I've got a pair of Monitor 7v5s as my fronts. CC-290 as the center and ADP-190s for surrounds. AVR is a Denon 2807. My sub is a PDR-8 and it seems a little overmatched, not that it sounds bad, but i think my bass could be a lot better. the room volume is about 20x20x10 and carpeted. how big of a sub should i be looking at? those of you with similar fronts out there, what are you using?

thanks
I think you might want to give a budget, so someone could filter it down a bit better for you.... You absolutely do not need to stick with Paradigm, any sub will work with your speakers... There are tons of companies to get subs from...

joffer

12-31-07, 06:58 PM

I think you might want to give a budget, so someone could filter it down a bit better for you.... You absolutely do not need to stick with Paradigm, any sub will work with your speakers... There are tons of companies to get subs from...

i'm going with the eD A3-300. Was willing to spend up to $600 but the A5-350 seemed like too much.

Dan Hitchman

12-31-07, 07:34 PM

i'm going with the eD A3-300. Was willing to spend up to $600 but the A5-350 seemed like too much.

Try the HSU VTF series. Around the same price. The bass will kick your teeth in for the money! I have the newest VTF 3.3 and even without the turbo my foundation will never be the same!!

If you're looking for tight, quick, and musical over theater style rock em, sock em thunder then the 10" sealed Rocket sub from ********** is a beautiful thing. Yes, it's red, but the sound will make up for the color in spades!

Dan

suthrn

01-01-08, 08:35 PM

Wanted to ask the experts a question. You can see my setup from my sig and wanted to know what people think about my wanting to upgrade to either the cc-590/cc-690. I haven't listened to them yet because the nearest dealer is over an hour away but wanted to know what you guys thought? Is it worth the drive to audition? I have read where people really seem to like the new centers. Any feddback would be great and thanks.

Dan Hitchman

01-01-08, 11:46 PM

CC-690!! Won't be an exact match due to changes in drivers, crossovers, etc. between versions, but the 690 is superior to the 590 in many ways.

Dan

jesterguy

01-02-08, 08:47 PM

ginovino

01-02-08, 10:30 PM

exhausted from reading the latter half of this thread over the past few days :)

I finally decided to do a speaker upgrade for the living room. Went by my local Paradigm dealer and he let me listen to a number of different setups. He had the Studio 20's, 40's, and 60's out, as well as some of the Monitor series. I had went in expecting to love the Studio's and in fact left loving them. A lot of the speakers I auditioned left me with that feeling of "this sound is coming from a box", whereas the Studio's were a more natural and realistic sound.

I'm by no means an audio guru and just want a nice setup that will last me a while without really needing to upgrade. Another factor is that I'm on a bit of a budget so I can't go all out on super high end equipment. I settled on this:

Fronts - Studio 20's
Center - CC-590
Surround - ADP-590's
Receiver - ???
Sub - ???

The price seemed reasonable at the usual given discount off the whole lot, but I don't know if I should shop around a bit more to try and get a better price. I need to take into consideration that I'll be needing to buy a sub and a receiver so the extra money would help a lot. I'm not really a great negotiator so I'm not expecting to get anything more than that :)

My room is carpeted and is roughly 13x21 with an open kitchen towards the front where the front and centers are located. Can anyone recommend me a good sub and receiver to go with? It seems that a lot of people enjoy the HSU subs, and over in the sub forum a lot were praising the ED A5-350. They are both priced similar so I was assuming that $6-700 was good range to stick with for getting a lot of bang for your buck.

I also have about $400 worth of gift cards to Circuit City I can use so I figured a nice Onkyo receiver would be a smart buy as I can take a chunk out of the price with that. The 805 came up a lot in this thread, would that be sufficient for my needs? Although I will have a 5.1 setup right now, I might eventually get some direct firing rears for a 7.1 so I need something to accommodate that. Any particular preferences?

I am going to complicate your mission somewhat. I am a Paradigm dealer
in the NY Area. As I am in the holiday mood, I'll share with you dealer cost for Paradigm is 60% of list price plus shipping. That is your starting point , case closed no further discussion needed! One exception is for the color white in the Atom studio series v5 add 11%. Stands are extra but same discount.

CC590 is a lot of speaker for any room, maybe even a mismatch for the Studio 20's.. Look at the CC390. The same for the ADP-590, look at the ADP-390 or go with the Mini monitors which is a much better sounding speaker overall.

As for the sub, avoid Paradigm and go for the Hsu VTF-3 HO or mk3. These are the speakers that are worth twice the price period. Paradigm subs are nice but no cigar. Also look to SVS, they have some nice products, but HSU has a 30 day return policy.

Now lets do the math if these are representative of current prices :
model LIST NET
CC590 979 588
CC390 629 377
CC290 429 257
ADP390 700pr 420
ADP190 400pr 240
Mini v5 380pr 228
Atom v5 249pr 156
Titan v5 500pr 300

These estimates are for Black Ash and should be slightly higher for Cherry and Rosenut. But you get the picture.

Now as for Receivers-- here is a dissertation I wrote earlier today on the Pioneer 1140 forum:

"AS you know the Piney has only 2 HDMI inputs. I am first and foremost a Audiophile with about $30k in my sound system.
So when I was putting my HT system together sonic accuracy was paramount. I narrowed my Receivers down to 4 brands and only the top 2 models in each brand:

Denon, Yamaha, Marantz, Pioneer. My observations and discoveries are as follows:

Pioneer was the least satisfying and somewhat thin sounding midrange, soundstage narrowest as is depth of field, history of poor tech support and firmware upgrades. 6/10 overall- Unreliable IMHO

Marantz has good sound and bottom end, you can feel the power with the right music, Soundstage & depth 8/10, However, lacks sonic subtlleties. Audyssy EQ highly regarded. OSD kind of clunky, old style. Some prior firmware issues affecting LFE, took 6 months for them to admit it. Price virtually non negotiable to any real discount. Overall 8.5/10--I'm uneasy with them.

Yamaha was a level above the prior 2 brands, Very good tech Support No firmware issues. Works right out of the box. Soundstage & Depth 8.5-9/10, Music has subtleties, refinement, punchy Mids, are smooth and speech very clear. On Screen Display easy to use and repeatable. YPAO EQ not as good as Audyssy, but it will do. Runs very hot, needs good ventilation. Newer versions have HDMI 1.3a. Prices are negotiable with right dealer. Should be able to get
25% off. Look at 3800, 1800 or 2700 (now $750).

Denon was the leader of the pack in about every category. Power, sophistication, Soundstage & depth. Music sounds very good 9-9.5/10, sonic cues at every turn. Very Good FM tuner. Tech support very good and responsive. Firmware issues fixed fast and downloadable. Tremendous power, yet supple and delicate. OSD somewhat clunky, USER manual written is JapEn--glish, Newest models are HDMI 1.3 v2. Owned by same company as Marantz, so big discounts will be hard to come by. The NEW 4308CI & 3808Ci are TOTL and have features than you'll ever use. Though If you can get 4806Ci from Ebay at price of $1000-1300 is fair. Or New old stock from a retailer even better. Many of these units are still out there! However, note that they are just HMDI 1.1 and not upgradeable.
There you have it.

I hope this response gives you nightmares!:) You can check out my complete posts of today by looking up my forum name.

Look forward to your comments!:D;)

Major Nelson

01-02-08, 10:39 PM

I had planned on buying the B&W 600 series speakers (683 towers, HTM61, and the DS3 dipole/mono surround). I have the HSU 3.3 sub and am driving it with a Sony 5300ES....then a friend of mine put a bug in my ear to look at Axioms and Paradigms...... So far Paradigms are the only ones I haven't found a ton of negatives written on them. What would y'all recomend for a HT. room is 13x19x10, 60% movies, 40% music? I liked the B&W for there warmth and neutrality - hate bright speakers. My budget is $2500 and lower...don't really want to go any higher. I'd really appreciate your help on which ones I should be looking at.

Dan Hitchman

01-02-08, 11:02 PM

ginovino

01-03-08, 09:46 AM

If you are going to have anything to do with multi-channel, high resolution music via SA-CD, DVD-Audio, and/or concerts via Blu-ray I would suggest going to the Studio 40's for the fronts, CC-590 or CC-690 for the center, and Studio 40's for the sides and back if you absolutely are not going to consider the tower Studio 60's or Studio 100's for at least the front. While the ADP quasi-dipolar surrounds would be fine for movies only, they would tend to blur the stereo imaging of 5.1 to 7.1 music tracks.

Of course, I've started with the Studio 100's for my fronts and plan to get the CC-690 soon and go from there.

For the bass, I have an HSU VTF-3.3 w/o turbo. It was a decent deal a few months back when I got mine and now it's an absolute steal!

I agree fully with your thoughts and logic.

$2500 for speakers could get you into a lot of trouble or place you in nirvana!

If you start with the HSU (currently in the 6's plus ship), that leaves you $1800. One of the great benefits of Paradigm is the seamlessness from model to model and series to series, not found in many other brands. Moreover, the resale is quite good on the secondary market.

Floor standers are the way to go, but the WAF will kill that and those needing stands are just a waste. I would take the cost of the stands and apply it to get floor standers. (PM me today, I have some thoughts that you like;)).

The Signature series is overkill, you will get 85% of their performance in the Studio series on a model for model basis. The best value is still the Monitor series, case closed. My thinking for the short term is 60's, CC390/cc590 and a pair of Mini monitors for the rear. This will get you started and prepared for future expansion.

If you plan on going 7.1 down the road, all the more reason to buy plain old
Atoms or Mini monitors for the surrounds and then use them in the future for the presence channels. I never liked ADP or bi polar for music. The do indeed kill image stability, and clarity. They are a rich mans version of BOSE(ugh!).

Though for mainly movie/tv viewing they add the bells and sonic whistles they make people sit up. Mostly sonic tricks that real music lovers would rather not have.

No mention has been made of amplification... Paradigms are very friendly to Yamaha, Denon, Bryston and Rotel. To a lessor degree with Marantz, Onkyo.
Avoid the rest.

Separates are a different matter entirely and with that the costs to assemble such a system.

I look forward to your comments.;)

unavol

01-03-08, 11:12 AM

No mention has been made of amplification... Paradigms are very friendly to Yamaha, Denon, Bryston and Rotel. To a lessor degree with Marantz, Onkyo.
Avoid the rest.

ginovino, it looks like you've done a lot of listening and research and I'm hoping to get a little out of that. I've got a question for you in regard to your statment on amplification in your previous post about Paradigms being friendly to Yamahas, Denons, etc. & avoiding the rest.

I've been auditioning speakers trying to settle on some small bookshelf speakers to replace my fronts & I've found that in my price range, I really like the Atoms better than anything I've heard. However, I have an harman/kardon AVR. I heard the Atoms on a Yamaha receiver & liked them. How much difference will there be on the h/k?

Logic_BomB

01-03-08, 11:45 AM

I heard the Atoms on a Yamaha receiver & liked them. How much difference will there be on the h/k?

It's more of a power issue than a brand issue I'm sure. Some people will disagree but I believe the general consensus is that unless you are doing very critical listening you'll be fine with any solid receiver that gives them enough juice.

aham23

01-03-08, 01:31 PM

this choosing speakers is a toughie!

basically, i will have a dedicated HT room with front projection on to 110" screen. this will be used for movies and hidef television (sports :) ).

we are leaning towards inwall, alright, when i say we i mean HER. anyone using AMS 250 or SA30 for the fronts (left right center)? these are my two main options from our local dealer.

thanks.

Logic_BomB

01-03-08, 01:37 PM

we are leaning towards inwall, alright, when i say we i mean HER. anyone using AMS 250 or SA30 for the fronts (left right center)? these are my two main options from our local dealer.

In-wall speakers, from everything I've read, are a huge compromise. If you can avoid them, I would. The sound quality, generally speaking, will be much better if you go with the free-standing kind.

However if you mean "her" in the "it's either her word or nothing" kind of way then maybe someone else can give some better advice in that realm of speaker choice.

ginovino

01-03-08, 03:22 PM

ginovino, it looks like you've done a lot of listening and research and I'm hoping to get a little out of that. I've got a question for you in regard to your statment on amplification in your previous post about Paradigms being friendly to Yamahas, Denons, etc. & avoiding the rest.

I've been auditioning speakers trying to settle on some small bookshelf speakers to replace my fronts & I've found that in my price range, I really like the Atoms better than anything I've heard. However, I have an harman/kardon AVR. I heard the Atoms on a Yamaha receiver & liked them. How much difference will there be on the h/k?

HK is a good product, though not innovative. Its best years are behind them. Back in the day, when they produced the Citation series pre & power amps, they were in rarified air.

Today they could be considered run of the mill. Harman International has lost its audio roots. I am not bad mouthing the product as some of their units are quite satisfactory.

I would suggest you look in another direction for the purposes of elevating your sonic expectations: Denon, Yamaha, Marantz in that order relative to the price points your willing to spend. These products have consistentaly performed as a group above the other brands (Onkyo, Pioneer et al). The support you get from them has maintained its high level and limited if any after sale technical issues (firmware, relliability). Several of the TOTL models have consumer versions out there as well for less money. One that comes to mind is the Yamaha 661 vs the 1700.

I hope that helps.

unavol

01-03-08, 03:38 PM

HK is a good product, though not innovative. Its best years are behind them. Back in the day, when they produced the Citation series pre & power amps, they were in rarified air.

Today they could be considered run of the mill. Harman International has lost its audio roots. I am not bad mouthing the product as some of their units are quite satisfactory.

I would suggest you look in another direction for the purposes of elevating your sonic expectations: Denon, Yamaha, Marantz in that order relative to the price points your willing to spend. These products have consistentaly performed as a group above the other brands (Onkyo, Pioneer et al). The support you get from them has maintained its high level and limited if any after sale technical issues (firmware, relliability). Several of the TOTL models have consumer versions out there as well for less money. One that comes to mind is the Yamaha 661 vs the 1700.

I hope that helps.
I am a rookie that's seen (or heard) the light & am in the process of moving out of the HTIB world. My budget won't allow TOTL at this point and I found what I thought was a good buy on an h/k receiver and have been very pleased with that portion of my upgrade so far. Now I'm looking to start upgrading my speakers and I just wanted to make sure I wasn't making a 'brand combination' mistake. I've read a lot of posts about how brand X does/does not go with that brand Y b/c they're both too warm, or too laid back, etc. I'm probably not experienced enough to know the differences there yet, but I'm working on it. Hence the questions. I used to think as long as everything was the same brand it was OK, but then I heard some good stuff and got the fever to upgrade my own stuff.

Anyway, thanks ginovino & logic_bomb for your replies. I guess I need to try to talk my local Paradigm dealer into letting me take some Atoms home and listen to them in my house & see if I still get as giddy as I did listening to them at the store.

ginovino

01-03-08, 05:35 PM

I am a rookie that's seen (or heard) the light & am in the process of moving out of the HTIB world. My budget won't allow TOTL at this point and I found what I thought was a good buy on an h/k receiver and have been very pleased with that portion of my upgrade so far. Now I'm looking to start upgrading my speakers and I just wanted to make sure I wasn't making a 'brand combination' mistake. I've read a lot of posts about how brand X does/does not go with that brand Y b/c they're both too warm, or too laid back, etc. I'm probably not experienced enough to know the differences there yet, but I'm working on it. Hence the questions. I used to think as long as everything was the same brand it was OK, but then I heard some good stuff and got the fever to upgrade my own stuff.

Anyway, thanks ginovino & logic_bomb for your replies. I guess I need to try to talk my local Paradigm dealer into letting me take some Atoms home and listen to them in my house & see if I still get as giddy as I did listening to them at the store.

As a "rookie" you ARE going about this the correct way... ask questions, weigh the answers, ask some questions, GO OUT AND LISTEN. IF NEED BE, TAKE YOUR HTR WITH YOU! Then THEY know your a serious buyer!

To ruin your day further, Paradigm as today announced an across the board price increase of about 15% due the dollar valuation. Thus the black Atoms which were $249pr are now $299pr list.

Atoms are a particularly good sounding speaker and most folks whether they know it or not could easily live with those in their HT setup with a CC290 or 390 as center, plus some very good cabling like AQ type 6 or Slate.

I would recommend using Mini monitors in front and the Atoms in the rear. You could easily get 105 db output in a 10wx15Lx8H room with average furniture.

I would go for a HSU sub instead of ANY of the Paradigm's.

Hope that helps.:)

Chuck1906

01-03-08, 07:10 PM

ginovino

01-03-08, 07:43 PM

The set up I have planned for my 15x17 home theater room is Monitor 7 towers, CC290 center, PDR8 or 10 for the sub, and AMS-250 in walls for the rear surround.

I was told that the Titan's and mini monitor will sound just as good as the monitor 7's is that true?

Should I go with the Atoms and mount them on the wall as opposed to using the AMS-250 in walls?

My room is in the basement and I live in a condo so I won't be cranking it up all that loud but definitely want some good sounding speakers. I have demoed paradigm speakers at the local store as well. But you know stuff is going to sound different in a store than it will at your house!

Thanks for your help.

I wouldn't go quite that far. IMHO the Mini monitor and Atoms on a cost basis outperform the Titans. I think you need to a/b the Titans against the mini for yourself.

I do not like to place speakers inside walls and then expect them to perform as well as a speaker designed to operate in free standing air. Second issue is you will be exposed to wall vibration in the adjoining walls/rooms.no matter what the mfg claims. Not good for the neighbors or sleeping kids or sleeping spouses.

The monitor 7's are a good sounding speaker for the price, though I believe the Studio 40's or 60's sound significantly better in the same setup.

If money is the object then Go Mini's - CC390 and Atoms. As most of your sound will be coming from the center channel. USE GOOD cable, not that zip cord crap. It will make a difference. AQ tYPE 6 or SLATE for your price point.

Don't buy any cable form Bestbuy!!!!!!!!!!! or the like.

Good luck

jesterguy

01-03-08, 11:13 PM

I do apoligize for all of the questions I'm throwing out there, having the boards as a source of info helps me a lot in this so I'm just trying to look at all the angles before I get in over my head!

I am going to complicate your mission somewhat. I am a Paradigm dealer
in the NY Area. As I am in the holiday mood, I'll share with you dealer cost for Paradigm is 60% of list price plus shipping. That is your starting point , case closed no further discussion needed! One exception is for the color white in the Atom studio series v5 add 11%. Stands are extra but same discount.

CC590 is a lot of speaker for any room, maybe even a mismatch for the Studio 20's.. Look at the CC390. The same for the ADP-590, look at the ADP-390 or go with the Mini monitors which is a much better sounding speaker overall.

As for the sub, avoid Paradigm and go for the Hsu VTF-3 HO or mk3. These are the speakers that are worth twice the price period. Paradigm subs are nice but no cigar. Also look to SVS, they have some nice products, but HSU has a 30 day return policy.

Now lets do the math if these are representative of current prices :
model LIST NET
CC590 979 588
CC390 629 377
CC290 429 257
ADP390 700pr 420
ADP190 400pr 240
Mini v5 380pr 228
Atom v5 249pr 156
Titan v5 500pr 300

These estimates are for Black Ash and should be slightly higher for Cherry and Rosenut. But you get the picture.

Now as for Receivers-- here is a dissertation I wrote earlier today on the Pioneer 1140 forum:

"AS you know the Piney has only 2 HDMI inputs. I am first and foremost a Audiophile with about $30k in my sound system.
So when I was putting my HT system together sonic accuracy was paramount. I narrowed my Receivers down to 4 brands and only the top 2 models in each brand:

Denon, Yamaha, Marantz, Pioneer. My observations and discoveries are as follows:

Pioneer was the least satisfying and somewhat thin sounding midrange, soundstage narrowest as is depth of field, history of poor tech support and firmware upgrades. 6/10 overall- Unreliable IMHO

Marantz has good sound and bottom end, you can feel the power with the right music, Soundstage & depth 8/10, However, lacks sonic subtlleties. Audyssy EQ highly regarded. OSD kind of clunky, old style. Some prior firmware issues affecting LFE, took 6 months for them to admit it. Price virtually non negotiable to any real discount. Overall 8.5/10--I'm uneasy with them.

Yamaha was a level above the prior 2 brands, Very good tech Support No firmware issues. Works right out of the box. Soundstage & Depth 8.5-9/10, Music has subtleties, refinement, punchy Mids, are smooth and speech very clear. On Screen Display easy to use and repeatable. YPAO EQ not as good as Audyssy, but it will do. Runs very hot, needs good ventilation. Newer versions have HDMI 1.3a. Prices are negotiable with right dealer. Should be able to get
25% off. Look at 3800, 1800 or 2700 (now $750).

Denon was the leader of the pack in about every category. Power, sophistication, Soundstage & depth. Music sounds very good 9-9.5/10, sonic cues at every turn. Very Good FM tuner. Tech support very good and responsive. Firmware issues fixed fast and downloadable. Tremendous power, yet supple and delicate. OSD somewhat clunky, USER manual written is JapEn--glish, Newest models are HDMI 1.3 v2. Owned by same company as Marantz, so big discounts will be hard to come by. The NEW 4308CI & 3808Ci are TOTL and have features than you'll ever use. Though If you can get 4806Ci from Ebay at price of $1000-1300 is fair. Or New old stock from a retailer even better. Many of these units are still out there! However, note that they are just HMDI 1.1 and not upgradeable.
There you have it.

I hope this response gives you nightmares!:) You can check out my complete posts of today by looking up my forum name.

Look forward to your comments!:D;)

wow, that's a lot of new info to take in! Grrr, this was supposed to be an easy and relaxing process! :D Thank you for the thorough response! Can you elaborate further on your comment about the cc-590 being a mismatch? The reason I had chose the cc-590 and the adp-590 as well was because throughout the thread, I saw that and the cc-690 come up as the CC of choice for people purchasing in the v.4 Studio and Signature line. I had seen the "don't mix and match" thing come up a number of times, I believe the 390 is coming from the Monitor line? I don't know if that is based on experience or if it's just something that was thrown out there and just accepted without any real basis. Unfortunately I wasn't able to demo the cc-590 because the dealer was currently out of stock so I'm just going off of other people's opinions on it as I cannot hear it for myself at the moment. I didn't think to ask if they had the other center models available to hear when I went to the dealer, I'll put that on the list for the next visit.

If I were to go into a Studio 40 or even the 60's instead of the 20, do you feel that it is a more correct match between the 590 centers and surrounds? Will I still get a great experience from the 390 or is it a night and day difference? As I said I can't demo the 590 for myself so I'm just going on other's opinions. I'll send you a PM regarding your thoughts on the just going with the floorstanders and just skip on both the 40's and 20's. I was limited on time the first time at the dealer, I'll spend a lot more time there comparing next time. I will be moving into a new house pretty soon so I will have a larger room to put the new speakers in. My current room I know seems like it's a little small for so much speaker. I only had a short visit to the local dealer yesterday so I didn't have an opportunity to listen to all of the setups that I wanted, I need to head back there this week and audition a couple more including the ones you are suggesting. I'm trying to think ahead and just get a set that will keep me happy and keep me from wishing I had gone with a different model after all is said and done. I don't want to get the itch and end up losing money by buying new stuff and taking a hit by trying to get rid of the old. Plus I want to consider that I will be in my current situation again where I'll have a bigger room to fill in a new house.

For the sub, the HSU seemed to be an overall great sub for the price and the mk3 was the one that I was looking at. I'd have to hear it first but I think that should be more than sufficient for my needs. I need to swing by the subwoofer forum and see if anyone had any opinions on the HSU's vs. the ED one. It seemed to be a consensus that the Paradigm subs should be passed on in favor of another brand so those are my top two contenders. I'm leaning towards the HSU though, I'm sure I will love it! In the unlikely event that it didn't meet my expectations I can always return it, but I'm expecting it to excel.

I am looking at Black ash for all of my speakers. I absolutely love the other wood tones, but I'm buying new furniture not to far in the future and I don't know yet if I will be purchasing light or dark woods. I'd like to keep everything matching so black ash is the safe choice for me. I do appreciate you laying out those figures for me, they do help a great amount. If the dealer and I cannot come to a price that we both think is fair, I'd like to shop around for someone that wants to make a better deal for me. The more I'm able to save on the speakers, the more I'm able to invest in speaker cable, (possibly) stands, mounts, receiver, etc. so any little bit helps!!

Yamaha, Denon, and Onkyo were the top 3 that I were considering for a receiver. I'm going to have a very open equipment area so I don't believe that I need to worry about any one running hot. If anything I can always hook up a fan to keep it a bit cooler. I'm planning out a budget of the $1000 range for the receiver so that should open me up to a lot of choices. I'll give the 4308 and 3808 a look. Any opinions on Onkyo's? I notice a lot of people running an Onkyo receiver but Denon was the one I was really looking at. I don't want to go overboard and buy more than I really need even though I'm so tempted to do so. Do I really even need to set that much aside for my needs or is that a sweet spot for my current situation with the ability to expand later? Should I start to factor in amps right now or will running them off a reciever be fine in the meantime? I'm going to check over some of your previous posts for more info on everything, thank you for your response and insights! I'll admit I'm a bit of a rookie when trying to get all of this stuff together so I'd like to get it right and be happy with what I end up purchasing and not stay awake at night wondering what it could have been. :)

I'll be sure to check out the mini monitors at the dealer to get me going and expand after that. I just wish that I they had a 590 center available for me to listen to so I can really get the full effect of what I'm about to get into.

If you are going to have anything to do with multi-channel, high resolution music via SA-CD, DVD-Audio, and/or concerts via Blu-ray I would suggest going to the Studio 40's for the fronts, CC-590 or CC-690 for the center, and Studio 40's for the sides and back if you absolutely are not going to consider the tower Studio 60's or Studio 100's for at least the front. While the ADP quasi-dipolar surrounds would be fine for movies only, they would tend to blur the stereo imaging of 5.1 to 7.1 music tracks.

Of course, I've started with the Studio 100's for my fronts and plan to get the CC-690 soon and go from there.

For the bass, I have an HSU VTF-3.3 w/o turbo. It was a decent deal a few months back when I got mine and now it's an absolute steal!

Dan, first off thank you for the repsonse too! At the moment, I'd be using my setup for 90% movies and 10% music, however after hearing the clarity of the studios at the dealer I feel that I'm going to do a lot more music listening but still heavily weighted towards movies. I was not considering the Studio 60's or the Studio 100's as they are just pushing it past the budget that I was attempting to stick to, but it's tough when you browse these forums all the time! :) However, when I look at the fact that I'm also looking at purchasing stands for the 20's or 40's, suddenly the floorstanding speakers start to seem not so bad. And if I do end up going with different rears or CC that actually costs less than I originally went in expecting, I can easily justify going with the 60's. It's those extra things that really get you and could be avoided with a different model all together. Although I could just piece it together over time, I'd much prefer to just get it all done at once. I feel like if I do it slowly, by the time I purchase my "final" piece I'll already want to upgrade the first things I bought. If I'm primarily a movie watcher, I want something that fulfill's my movie needs but is still a good comprimise for music and not kill me in the pockets at the same time. Would you agree with ginovino's suggestion of going with mini-monitors in the rear to get me started and still leave myself room for expansion later?

Dan Hitchman

01-03-08, 11:41 PM

Dan, first off thank you for the response too! At the moment, I'd be using my setup for 90% movies and 10% music, however after hearing the clarity of the studios at the dealer I feel that I'm going to do a lot more music listening but still heavily weighted to-wards movies. I was not considering the Studio 60's or the Studio 100's as they are just pushing it past the budget that I was attempting to stick to, but it's tough when you browse these forums all the time! :) However, when I look at the fact that I'm also looking at purchasing stands for the 20's or 40's, suddenly the floorstanding speakers start to seem not so bad. And if I do end up going with different rears or CC that actually costs less than I originally went in expecting, I can easily justify going with the 60's. It's those extra things that really get you and could be avoided with a different model all together. Although I could just piece it together over time, I'd much prefer to just get it all done at once. I feel like if I do it slowly, by the time I purchase my "final" piece I'll already want to upgrade the first things I bought. If I'm primarily a movie watcher, I want something that fulfills my movie needs but is still a good compromise for music and not kill me in the pockets at the same time. Would you agree with ginovino's suggestion of going with mini-monitors in the rear to get me started and still leave myself room for expansion later?

Since you have to take into account for stands I would consider AT LEAST the Studio 60's and the CC-690 (a much more robust center and it doesn't have the boxy or congested qualities that plague so many horizontal designed center speakers... basically a full tower laid on end; a beast, but in a good way!!). Yes, it's going to be a stretch, but the revelation in sound will more than make up for the cost difference (and you won't be so apt to change speakers as quickly). You listen to some high resolution, multi-channel Blu-ray concerts (like Dave Matthews and Legends of Jazz) and dip your toe into the SA-CD and DVD-Audio pool and you'll never go back to CD's or MP3's again! These need the best musical speakers you can get.

I am NOT a proponent of mixing up speakers from different lines even from the same brand. They just aren't voiced the same no matter what the dealer or manufacturer may claim, and you DO want timbral matching. I would possibly start with Studio 40's in the side surrounds (going 5.1 to start) then consider switching to at least Studio 60's for the sides and moving the 40's to the back for 7.1.

The HSU VTF 3.3 MKIII sub was a blind buy for me. I didn't hear it and took it on faith. I was not disappointed (so far). Are there better subs out there? Sure! But, I'd have to pay a hell of a lot more for the privilege.

intence

01-04-08, 01:15 AM

Has anyone heard anything about a 10% price increase for 2008? Was shopping for some Paradigm speakers and my local dealer mentioned it earlier this week.

bowmah

01-04-08, 01:25 AM

I do apoligize for all of the questions I'm throwing out there, having the boards as a source of info helps me a lot in this so I'm just trying to look at all the angles before I get in over my head!

First of all, there is no need to apologize here :)

Dan, first off thank you for the repsonse too! At the moment, I'd be using my setup for 90% movies and 10% music, however after hearing the clarity of the studios at the dealer I feel that I'm going to do a lot more music listening but still heavily weighted towards movies. I was not considering the Studio 60's or the Studio 100's as they are just pushing it past the budget that I was attempting to stick to, but it's tough when you browse these forums all the time! :) However, when I look at the fact that I'm also looking at purchasing stands for the 20's or 40's, suddenly the floorstanding speakers start to seem not so bad. And if I do end up going with different rears or CC that actually costs less than I originally went in expecting, I can easily justify going with the 60's. It's those extra things that really get you and could be avoided with a different model all together. Although I could just piece it together over time, I'd much prefer to just get it all done at once. I feel like if I do it slowly, by the time I purchase my "final" piece I'll already want to upgrade the first things I bought. If I'm primarily a movie watcher, I want something that fulfill's my movie needs but is still a good comprimise for music and not kill me in the pockets at the same time. Would you agree with ginovino's suggestion of going with mini-monitors in the rear to get me started and still leave myself room for expansion later?

Don't get pushed into the Studio series just because lots of users here love it. In fact, users here have loved Paradigm for quite some time, even the lower monitor series. Personally, I am not sure the 690 is worth the money if budget is a concern. There are users here with a great setup and their center is the older CC450 (which was almost top of the line in the past). The new C290 sounds damn good for the price point in my opinion. Pair that up with the mini's and atoms and a HSU sub, you got yourself a great movie setup. It will be ok for music but it won't sound like the Studio setup (then again, you are not paying the studio prices). There will always be better gear and we all have a budget.

Get your local dealer to setup a cc290 with minis in the fronts and atoms in the rears with their Servo 15 sub. I bet you won't believe the sound that comes out. Not that the HSU sub you are looking at performs like the Servo 15 but again, you are not paying that price. Point is, when your sub can take alot of your mid to low end bass from your minis and atoms, you will get very good enjoyment out of your system and enjoy the movie more than worrying about gear.

If you think you might enjoy lots of music, consider using the Monitor 9's or 11's for your fronts (if you listen to music in 2 channel stereo). If you enjoy 5 channel stereo, consider minis in the rear in this setup.

Good luck and enjoy your journey!

fleaman

01-04-08, 02:15 AM

Has anyone heard anything about a 10% price increase for 2008? Was shopping for some Paradigm speakers and my local dealer mentioned it earlier this week.

If you're in the U.S. there have been price increases probably due to the increasingly weak dollar, which could also continue into this year :mad:

MattHD1313

01-04-08, 05:09 AM

Hey guys,

I'm putting serious thought into joining the paradigm owners' club here within the next week or so, had a couple questions I was hoping to get answered. The setup will be mostly ht and tv, maybe occasionally music, but def not as important as ht. relatively small room, (not to great at judging size, sorry), so they don't need to blow my head off, but at the same time, I'd really like floorstanding models.

I'm looking primarily at the studio 60s as my mains, was wondering what they were like compared to say the monitor 7s? I'd ideally like the setup to be piano black, but unfortunately without shelling out for the sig series I don't think thats going to happen... oh well

Also had a couple questions about pricing. I can't seem to find it anywhere!
Setup I'm looking at:
Mains: Studio 60's
Center: cc-590
Surrounds: Studio ADP-590
Sub: eD or HSU

any idea what the suggested retail is for these!? I do have a local store that carries paradigm, but they're by appointment only, and need to figure out if this system is doable budget wise before i go auditioning. thanks a lot!

Matt

jkhome

01-04-08, 07:31 AM

Hopstretch

01-04-08, 07:59 AM

Has anyone heard anything about a 10% price increase for 2008? Was shopping for some Paradigm speakers and my local dealer mentioned it earlier this week.
Worse. 15%. There are a number of useful posts on Paradigm dealer vs retail pricing earlier in the thread from "ginovino", who seems to know what he's talking about. Do a search on that user name to dig them up.

Logic_BomB

01-04-08, 09:11 AM

Also had a couple questions about pricing. I can't seem to find it anywhere!
Setup I'm looking at:
Mains: Studio 60's

(snip)

any idea what the suggested retail is for these!?

I'm in Canada so YMMV but a year or so ago I was able to get Studio 60's V.3 plus a NAD C320BEE integrated amp for almost $2k exactly. I think my dealer practically threw in the NAD though as he quoted me about that for the speakers alone before I told him my budget.

ginovino

01-04-08, 09:44 AM

Since you have to take into account for stands I would consider AT LEAST the Studio 60's and the CC-690 (a much more robust center and it doesn't have the boxy or congested qualities that plague so many horizontal designed center speakers... basically a full tower laid on end; a beast, but in a good way!!). Yes, it's going to be a stretch, but the revelation in sound will more than make up for the cost difference (and you won't be so apt to change speakers as quickly). You listen to some high resolution, multi-channel Blu-ray concerts (like Dave Matthews and Legends of Jazz) and dip your toe into the SA-CD and DVD-Audio pool and you'll never go back to CD's or MP3's again! These need the best musical speakers you can get.

I am NOT a proponent of mixing up speakers from different lines even from the same brand. They just aren't voiced the same no matter what the dealer or manufacturer may claim, and you DO want timbral matching. I would possibly start with Studio 40's in the side surrounds (going 5.1 to start) then consider switching to at least Studio 60's for the sides and moving the 40's to the back for 7.1.

The HSU VTF 3.3 MKIII sub was a blind buy for me. I didn't hear it and took it on faith. I was not disappointed (so far). Are there better subs out there? Sure! But, I'd have to pay a hell of a lot more for the privilege.

To Jesterguy:

This post is getting to be a little cumbersome, don't you think?

Maybe we can trim down some of the "quotes"?

I will address the issue of the Center channel and hopefully put it to rest finally.

Putting aside the "reference" series totally as they are sonically(95%) the same as the Studio series. That brings us to the 4 models under discussion. I will take a moment to fire a shot across the bows of many of the responders and some askers as well.

Paradigm has a splendid thorough and informative website. The information there is quite complete and if one would take the time to absorb what is provided, should address why "we" who have a bit more experience with the product, recommend one model over another.

Heres the reasoning: More likely than not, members will not own MEGA TOTL amps putting 100+ wpc or,"component systems with separate Pre/Proc & multi channel amps or brands that can really stand up to the task of driving multi cone speakers to realistic if not loud levels without distortion. Plus the unknown factor of room dimensions, absorption, reflection, and construction materials. Add to this decorating issues.

So we must look to efficiency of the speaker to make up the difference.

Comparatively, is terms of cabinet size & sensitivity we look to balance cabinet dimensions and output at 1 watt. Here's how they stack up:
cc290 .8cu 27"wide 32lbs 94db
cc390 1.76cu 39"wide 61lbs 97db
cc590 1.0cu 26"wide 45lbs 87db
cc690 1.7cu 36"wide 69lbs 88db

It's obvious the 590 & 690 are the LEAST EFFICIENT of the 4 units given similar dimensions and driver makeup. The difference is not subtle! a 3db level change is 10x louder or said another way, 10x less required driving power.

The physical sizes are comparable and driver complement for the 390 vs. 690 are the same, as is the 290 vs. 590. The max continuous input power is also comparable. AND, the frequency sweep to the -6db LF level are irrelevant since you will setting the Sub crossover to 60-80hz.

Are you staring to get th idea now?

The CC390 or lessor 290 are the most efficient is this group, are built the same, come in the same finishes and offer performance comparable to the higher series at a more appealing price point for the majority of consumers.

In our shop we sell 290/390 10x-15x to 1 over the 590/690 or REF. series.
Another benefit is financial. This allows folks to step up the L/R & Surround speakers to the more refined reproducers, better cables etc.

I hope this defines my logic without insulting the readers:rolleyes:

nelson57

01-04-08, 10:15 AM

ginovino

01-04-08, 10:44 AM

[QUOTE=ginovino;12677292]To Jesterguy:

So we must look to efficiency of the speaker to make up the difference.

Comparatively, is terms of cabinet size & sensitivity we look to balance cabinet dimensions and output at 1 watt. Here's how they stack up:

cc290 .8cu 27"wide 32lbs 94db
cc390 1.76cu 39"wide 61lbs 97db
cc590 1.0cu 26"wide 45lbs 87db
cc690 1.7cu 36"wide 69lbs 88db

It's obvious the 590 & 690 are the LEAST EFFICIENT of the 4 units given similar dimensions and driver makeup. The difference is not subtle! a 3db level change is 10x louder or said another way, 10x less required driving power.
QUOTE]

Ginovino, I'm not trying to get into a debate with you, just in the interest of fair comparison, Paradigm list both room and anechoic sensitivity ratings. You used the room for the 290/390 and anechoic for 590/690. It would only be a fair comparison if you use the same measurements. If you used the same measurements it would look like this:

cc290 .8cu 27"wide 32lbs 94db
cc390 1.76cu 39"wide 61lbs 97db
cc590 1.0cu 26"wide 45lbs 90db
cc690 1.7cu 36"wide 69lbs 91db

Again, I'm not trying to argue your points, or suggest anything negative just wanted to at least be fair in the measurements. Your point is still valid.

:o:o:o:
Sir you are indeed correct!:eek:
Thanks for pointing it out (like my dirty laundry:D) so quickly!

In my haste to get my thoughts in writing I goofed, does that make my comments/opinions any less valid in the context of the discussion? ha ha ha!

I believe the readers will see that I am coming from a good and helpful place.

This hobby is for many overwhelming, with so much bullsh-t and misinformation being generated by BOTH the informed and ignorant. Much of this is caused by the dealers themselves. Sad to admit even I fell to this level back in the day.

This happens because the good dealers spend time, time, and more time with window shoppers who are making buying decisions on a beer budget with Champagne taste and ZERO understanding or desire to learn.
Everyone knows someone who has this great sound system and ergo they are considered experts. The hell with the dealers knowledge experience, $investment, product portfolio.

I like to draw mental pictures for my customers. Its easier for them to understand if you can teach them in lay terms. They can draw upon that to make (hopefully) prudent buying decisions. For example, I use Horsepower to explain wattage and, use a Radio shack SPL meter to show how little power is actually needed for a certain sound level output and so on.

We are primarily a 2 channel salon. we sell no Tv's or projectors. I tell folks what they should pay for particular brand/model TV and send them off.
I suggest they come back to me for the sound portion, and many do including the ones that fall prey to the TV salesperson and buy the Crap of the month sound system, additional warranty insurance et al.:D:D:D

Enough said.:)

nelson57

01-04-08, 10:53 AM

ginovino

01-04-08, 11:15 AM

Ginovino, I appreciate being able to come to this forum and learn from guys like you, and I wish more people recognized the value of dealing with individuals and shops like yours with people that have knowledge, passion and a love for the hobby. I wish you a healthy and prosperous New Year.

Thanks for the kind words.

If you want to see some of what we are all about and where we are coming from, go to Audiogon.com and lookup "Dabluguy" postings.;)

Hopstretch

01-04-08, 11:59 AM

Thanks for the kind words.

If you want to see some of what we are all about and where we are coming from, go to Audiogon.com and lookup "Dabluguy" postings.;)
I definitely will, as I am in the market for some Paradigms, and you have given me a lot of valuable food for thought.

Not to nitpick you further, but unless I am missing something the CC-390 and CC-690 can't really be said to have the same "driver complement" either, can they, since their drivers differ in number, size and type? ;)

051473

01-04-08, 01:37 PM

Are there any Studio owners that have tried (or are running) the cheaper pro amps with their Studios?

I'm thinking of moving my Aragon amps back to my Magnepans, and trying some QSC rmx or plx series amps on the Studio 60s/570 and ADP470s.

The amps will be located in an adjoining closet, so hopefully fan noise won't be an issue.

I replaced my Rotel 1095 with 2 Crown XLS-402's and 2 202's. The sound from my Studios is fantastic with these amps. 1 402 powers my 100's, the other is for my CC-590(using 1 ch only). 1 202 does my in-ceiling surrounds and the other I have bridged making available 660W for a 4ohm DIY sub.

The Rotel sounded great but I think the Crowns sound better and I got 8 channels of high power and great sound for about $800.
Check out this thread for more info http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=418666

ginovino

01-04-08, 03:40 PM

I definitely will, as I am in the market for some Paradigms, and you have given me a lot of valuable food for thought.

Not to nitpick you further, but unless I am missing something the CC-390 and CC-690 can't really be said to have the same "driver complement" either, can they, since their drivers differ in number, size and type? ;)

:o:o:o

Again, you caught me in my haste!

Your right . The CC390 has 7 drivers and the CC690 has 6 drivers....... Now that it was clarified... You are beginning to nitpick:D

MattHD1313

01-04-08, 11:03 PM

I'm in Canada so YMMV but a year or so ago I was able to get Studio 60's V.3 plus a NAD C320BEE integrated amp for almost $2k exactly. I think my dealer practically threw in the NAD though as he quoted me about that for the speakers alone before I told him my budget.

thanks for the input. Anybody else have any words of wisdom? :)

051473

01-05-08, 04:58 AM

thanks for the input. Anybody else have any words of wisdom? :)
This link has been posted quite a bit. http://www.bradfordshifi.com/prices.html Just scroll down the list to Paradigm. These prices are MSRP so subtract 10-15% and that is about what you should expect to pay.

I have had monitor 3's and 7's and now have Studio 100's. I have spent hours listening to Studio 60's and I think they are far better than the M7's.

jkhome

01-05-08, 08:14 AM

I replaced my Rotel 1095 with 2 Crown XLS-402's and 2 202's. The sound from my Studios is fantastic with these amps. 1 402 powers my 100's, the other is for my CC-590(using 1 ch only). 1 202 does my in-ceiling surrounds and the other I have bridged making available 660W for a 4ohm DIY sub.

The Rotel sounded great but I think the Crowns sound better and I got 8 channels of high power and great sound for about $800.
Check out this thread for more info http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=418666

Yes, I saw your comments on that "mother of all threads" (like this one :D), and was hoping you were still using them.

I also started out with Rotel amplification, using a RSX1055 receiver (75wpc x5). Upgrading to the 200 wpc Aragons made a big difference with my 60s. I don't expect a pro amp to have the same resolution as the Aragons, but for our untreated compromised HT family room, hopefully it will be satisfactory.

Did you do any research between Crown and other brands, such as QSC? I'm thinking a couple of RMX850s should have sufficient power for my 60s and 570 center.

The Natural

01-05-08, 02:41 PM

Are the speakers really that much cheaper in Canada? I wouldn't mind driving if so =)

fleaman

01-05-08, 03:56 PM

This link has been posted quite a bit. http://www.bradfordshifi.com/prices.html Just scroll down the list to Paradigm. These prices are MSRP so subtract 10-15% and that is about what you should expect to pay.

Yet studio V.3's haven't been available for a while now, so how old is this list? OTOH the prices really seem to be for V.4's, so maybe it's a misprint?

I think the Studio 60 V.3's were $1500-$1599 a pair list before they were discontinued.

A lot of the price hike for the U.S. is just due to the weak dollar :mad:

jkhome

01-05-08, 06:34 PM

Paradigm has had a few price hikes in the last couple of years. Every time a new reveiw comes out, hold on to your wallet.:(

fleaman

01-05-08, 06:53 PM

Paradigm has had a few price hikes in the last couple of years. Every time a new reveiw comes out, hold on to your wallet.:(

I wonder if the hikes were in Canada too?

If not, then it's just adjusting for the devaluating dollar here :(

Also lets not forget the updating of the line. The Studio V.4's came out 2 years ago?

jkhome

01-05-08, 07:12 PM

I wonder if the hikes were in Canada too?

If not, then it's just adjusting for the devaluating dollar here :(

Also lets not forget the updating of the line. The Studio V.4's came out 2 years ago?

I own Studio 60v3s. When this 04 review appeared they were $1500:http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/paradigm_studio60v3_cc570v3_adp470v3_seismic12.htm
When I bought mine in 06, they were $1600
As per the link above, they (or the v4s?) are up to $1900:eek: And is that price before or after the latest price hike?

fleaman

01-05-08, 08:18 PM

I
As per the link above, they (or the v4s?) are up to $1900:eek: And is that price before or after the latest price hike?

It has to be the V.4's....they don't make the V.3's anymore...for at least a year or more. I think the $1600 list was the last list price on the V.3's before they were discontinued and my guess is that extra $100 was due to the weak dollar, not an actual Paradigm price hike. Although I'd like a Canadian here to back that up.

MacBuster

01-05-08, 08:20 PM

It has to be the V.4's....they don't make the V.3's anymore...for at least a year or more. I think the $1600 list was the last list price on the V.3's before they were discontinued and my guess is that extra $100 was due to the weak dollar, not an actual Paradigm price hike. Although I'd like a Canadian here to back that up.

That's almost certainly the reason. When the Canadian dollar starting rocketing up compared to the US buck, Paradigm pulled their MSRP pricing off the website. And it was either raise the American prices, or reduce the Canadian prices. The former retains their current margins.

Sgt_Strider

01-05-08, 08:39 PM

fleaman

01-05-08, 10:22 PM

That's almost certainly the reason. When the Canadian dollar starting rocketing up compared to the US buck, Paradigm pulled their MSRP pricing off the website. And it was either raise the American prices, or reduce the Canadian prices. The former retains their current margins.

Don't think it was the Canadian dollar rocketing up as much as the U.S. dollar was spiraling down. Compared to the Euro, it would cost us in the U.S. about 50% more:eek: to buy a Euro now than when it was introduced about 6 years ago.

Or you can look it as about 1/3 less to buy a dollar now with a Euro than 6 years ago.

Either way, the Dollar stinks :mad:

051473

01-05-08, 11:04 PM

Did you do any research between Crown and other brands, such as QSC? I'm thinking a couple of RMX850s should have sufficient power for my 60s and 570 center.
PM sent.

thrand1

01-06-08, 12:22 AM

I need some help here. My room is 18 feet x 13 feet and I'm trying to figure out which speaker would be most suitable for this room size and giving me the option to expand to a 5.1 setup when I have more money available. Right now, I'm thinking of going with a 2.1 setup with the Atom Monitors as the fronts. Originally I had the Mini Monitors and even the Studio 20s, but I think the Studios may be a bit overkill for my small room. I have no intention of future proofing of maybe moving to a bigger room. What do you guys think? Money is an issue as I'm going to stick with 2.1 for now and maybe by the end of this year or early next year, I'll complete the migration to a surround sound system. Atom Monitors or Mini-Monitors? If not, what do you guys recommend?

I would go with the Mini Monitors. The Mini frequency response is 70Hz at the low end while the Atoms go to about 90Hz. This would have some ramifications for your sub...a commonplace crossover for a subwoofer is somewhere around 80Hz. With the Atoms, you would need a subwoofer to do a lot of work at higher frequencies where it may not be as efficient. With the Minis, you can cross over comfortably at 80Hz and forget about it. The Minis can still then be transitioned to be rear speakers at a later date.

SoupRknowva

01-06-08, 01:38 AM

So i finally joined the ship and got my first pair of paradigms. i got myself two monitor 7's and im loving them. Though i realy wanted the maggy MG12's my rooms size wouldnt permit it, and these were the closest in the price range to the maggys transparency and detail. but basically they've inspired me to start listening to some hi definition audio cause now i can actually here a difference in it, and im lovin it. Also GUitar Hero is much better with these babies!!

Soup

JimmyDaves

01-06-08, 11:03 AM

Warpdrv

01-06-08, 12:03 PM

Hey Everyone:

Just have to say this is one long thread!

Anyway, I'd like to know if anyone who posts on this forum/thread has the following setup:

Paradigm Reference Studio 100 v4, CC690, ADP590. This is the setup that I am trying to go for after all my research and narrowing down and eliminating other speaker choices.

Unfortunately, no dealer close to my area has any of these in stock. I actually called a dealer who was 25 miles away who told me he had them in one of his showrooms and I went out there on a Saturday and he didn't have them at all. What he had was a Reference Studio 20 v3 and a 40 v2, neither one of them were hooked up. Talk about being a little peeved!

So, it seems that in order to audition the Paradigms I'm interested in, I have to purchase them.

My use would be about 85% home theater and I've read nothing but raves for the configuration I mentioned above, so I'd love to hear from someone here who has the same setup that I'm wanting to own.

Also, as a less expensive alternative, I've checked out the Monitor Series v5 - Monitor 11, CC390 and ADP390. It's about half the price of the Reference 100 v4, CC690, ADP590 speakers. Are the Reference series twice as good as the Monitor series and worth the extra expense?

I'm open to other suggestions and appreciate any comments. Thanks!

I have that setup... its amazing, but you really should audition them yourself, there are so many speaker choices, one mans garbage is another mans treasure... Obviously Paradigms are very popular speakers, by the length of the thread alone should tell you. The Studio line is by leaps and bounds better then the monitor line IMO. I personally would not suggest you ask people to tell you they are great, you should visit other HiFi stores to see what else is available to audition and try some other brands.
That really is part of the enjoyment of this hobby, to take your favorite music that you are intimate with and find that golden speaker that tickles your ears in just the right way...

I wouldn't buy speakers that I couldn't listen to first...

Im not saying they are not worth it, just read the last ten pages of this thread, People love these speakers....

Good luck with you trek to find that special set of speakers....

Hopstretch

01-06-08, 12:11 PM

My use would be about 85% home theater and I've read nothing but raves for the configuration I mentioned above, so I'd love to hear from someone here who has the same setup that I'm wanting to own.

Also, as a less expensive alternative, I've checked out the Monitor Series v5 - Monitor 11, CC390 and ADP390. It's about half the price of the Reference 100 v4, CC690, ADP590 speakers. Are the Reference series twice as good as the Monitor series and worth the extra expense?

I'm open to other suggestions and appreciate any comments. Thanks!
Go back one page in the thread and read through the posts from "ginovino", who is a Paradigm dealer and directly addresses your Studio vs. Monitor question from his point of view. In the end, of course, only you can make up your mind about relative value, but it's probably fair to say that you tend to get diminishing marginal returns as you move up any speaker manufacturer's model line.

After listening to them a few times, I really like the Studios and am eyeing the exact same setup that you are. But the $3,000 savings on a comparable Monitor 7.1 rig would allow me to step up from an AV receiver to decent separates and to acoustically treat my HT room, which could well give me more bang for my bucks.

Ah **** it, maybe I'll just sell a kidney. :rolleyes:

winged creature

01-06-08, 01:03 PM

I would go with the Mini Monitors. The Mini frequency response is 70Hz at the low end while the Atoms go to about 90Hz. This would have some ramifications for your sub...a commonplace crossover for a subwoofer is somewhere around 80Hz. With the Atoms, you would need a subwoofer to do a lot of work at higher frequencies where it may not be as efficient. With the Minis, you can cross over comfortably at 80Hz and forget about it. The Minis can still then be transitioned to be rear speakers at a later date.

Im curious about the frequency response of the atom monitors. Paradigms site says they go to 90Hz, whereas Stereophile conducted there own measurements and stated they go down to 70Hz. Can anybody bring more clarity to this discrepancy.

oztech

01-06-08, 04:00 PM

speaker placement and room will affect the frequency response.also did stereophile
say that was flat or a couple of db down at70hz.

thrand1

01-06-08, 04:18 PM

Im curious about the frequency response of the atom monitors. Paradigms site says they go to 90Hz, whereas Stereophile conducted there own measurements and stated they go down to 70Hz. Can anybody bring more clarity to this discrepancy.

Seconding what oztech said, also Paradigm's site quoted the 90Hz as +/-2dB, so the 70Hz could be attributed to either room acoustics or it could be the low end of the +/-3dB figure...

fleaman

01-06-08, 04:19 PM

Low end freq response is not a very good indicator of low end output. What manufactures rarely show is the low end distortion levels, i.e. ?% distortion below 100hz @ ?SPL

You will see many speakers measure +/- 1db down to say 40hz, yet it's the speakers that can play it with low distortion and at higher than whisper spl's.

Take the low end freq response only as a relative indicator to other speakers, but note that when a speaker with a 6" woofer measures +/- 3db to 40hz and a 8" woofer measures the same, obviously one of them will play it at higher spl's with lower distortion than the other and this is VERY noticeable in real life as anyone who's listened to a 6" speaker vs. 8" speaker can attest.

fleaman

01-06-08, 04:23 PM

Seconding what oztech said, also Paradigm's site quoted the 90Hz as +/-2dB, so the 70Hz could be attributed to either room acoustics or it could be the low end of the +/-3dB figure...

Speaker measurements are done in an anechoic chamber, so reflections/room influences are not a factor.

Also note that when a +/- 3db figure is given, the range is 6db....so if the speaker is +3db @ 150hz and -3db @ 70hz, then 70hz is -6db down from the 150hz point.

winged creature

01-06-08, 08:52 PM

here is what stereophile had:

Atom Monitor V.5

Description: Two-way, reflex-loaded, stand-mounted loudspeaker. Drive-units: 1" titanium-dome tweeter, 5.5" copolymer-cone bass/midrange driver with diecast chassis. Frequency responses: 70Hz–20kHz, ±2dB (on axis), 70Hz–16kHz, ±2dB (off axis). Impedance: "compatible with 8 ohms." Sensitivity: 89dB in room, 87dB anechoic. Recommended amplification: 15–80W.

dbacksfan51

01-06-08, 11:32 PM

Warpdrv

01-06-08, 11:53 PM

I read through about 50 pages of this thread, and started to get tired. How many of you have done this swap? Are you happy with the results. From what I read, it makes them a bit less harsh. Also how much have you paid for them, and were the dealers reluctant to order them for you.
Thanks in advance.

the change is negligible at best... I auditioned the .v3 and .v4 side by side, as the dealer switched back and forth, I hardly noticed any difference..

just a tinge more stability on the output of the tweet.. I wouldn't think it would be worth the $$ in my eyes to make the change...

G-PAL™ Gold-Anodized Pure-Aluminum Domes chosen for their exceptional rigidity and improved internal damping. The reduced radius of curvature on the tweeter diaphragm has also brought about significant improvements in sound dispersion. Ferro-fluid cooled and damped.

Looks to me like sales babble...

dbacksfan51

01-07-08, 12:09 AM

the change is negligible at best... I auditioned the .v3 and .v4 side by side, as the dealer switched back and forth, I hardly noticed any difference..

just a tinge more stability on the output of the tweet.. I wouldn't think it would be worth the $$ in my eyes to make the change...

Looks to me like sales babble...

Thanks, just trying to find a way to take some of the edge off the tweeter. I am still playing around with my new preamp, to get a better response.

Warpdrv

01-07-08, 12:15 AM

Thanks, just trying to find a way to take some of the edge off the tweeter. I am still playing around with my new preamp, to get a better response.
My room is bright as well... I would trim the high end with the eq in the preamp if it has one... My pioneer receiver has that ability with individual channels... I trim them back a bit here too.. they are a tad to bright on some material..

What preamp are you running...?

unavol

01-07-08, 02:21 PM

As a "rookie" you ARE going about this the correct way... ask questions, weigh the answers, ask some questions, GO OUT AND LISTEN. IF NEED BE, TAKE YOUR HTR WITH YOU! Then THEY know your a serious buyer!

To ruin your day further, Paradigm as today announced an across the board price increase of about 15% due the dollar valuation. Thus the black Atoms which were $249pr are now $299pr list.

Atoms are a particularly good sounding speaker and most folks whether they know it or not could easily live with those in their HT setup with a CC290 or 390 as center, plus some very good cabling like AQ type 6 or Slate.

I would recommend using Mini monitors in front and the Atoms in the rear. You could easily get 105 db output in a 10wx15Lx8H room with average furniture.

I would go for a HSU sub instead of ANY of the Paradigm's.

Hope that helps.:)
As a result of the price increase talk, I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the Paradigms. I listened to the Minis and Atoms again and since I have a sub to handle the lows, and I'm not going to be able to crank it up (at least while the wife and kids are home) I decided on the Atoms. They sound so much better than what I had. My wife even commented on how much better they sound.

A guy at an audio shop once told me that the search for improved audio was a dark path. I didn't know what he meant, but after listening up my new Paradigm's, I think I'm starting to understand. I used to think my sub was great, but after listening to the Paradigms, I now hear that my sub is slow and sloppy and I'm going to have to consider getting a new one. :-) A dark path indeed. Regardless, I am still very excited to be a Paradigm owner.

ginovino

01-07-08, 04:04 PM

oztech

01-07-08, 04:16 PM

i may be wrong but i thought that svs has been around since the mid 90's doubt
they are going under any time soon especially at their prices.

MacBuster

01-07-08, 04:39 PM

Don't think it was the Canadian dollar rocketing up as much as the U.S. dollar was spiraling down. Compared to the Euro, it would cost us in the U.S. about 50% more:eek: to buy a Euro now than when it was introduced about 6 years ago.

Or you can look it as about 1/3 less to buy a dollar now with a Euro than 6 years ago.

Either way, the Dollar stinks :mad:

You are correct, of course.

It's also the reason I put a big fat "compared to the US dollar" in my original post. Since it's all relative, we have rocketed up compared to the US dollar.

jkreidler

01-07-08, 04:42 PM

:) congrats on your purchase!

It would take some doing to top these little wonders for the price. As for the sub, Certainly a MkII version of a HSU sub is likely better than what you have now. You can find several on Videogon.com or Audiogon.com for very good negotiable prices.

Shy away from the brand of the moment i.e.: "Earthquake, SVS" and so on. Stay with the companies who will support you in a year or two.

Am I to gather you went with 4 Atoms? Did you buy the Premier mb-60 wall mounts for them? In not, how are you mounting them?:confused:

I just purchased a pair of Monitor 11 V.5's form a member here and am very happy so far with them in my theater.....My SVS PB12Plus/2 Rocks and I just added a second SVS (SB12Plus) in the living room for a 2.1 setup. The guys at SVS have been great to buy from and their support has been fantastic. EXAMPLE, I broke the fuse plug the day before Thanksgiving (with family coming over to see the Theater, ok for Turkey but you get the point :)) and they overnighted me a NEW AMP!!!! and they worked with me on the phone to by-pass the fuse for the Family Gathering (with a disclaimer of course!!!) They have been great and definitely deserve to be looked at.....

Ginovino - Did you have a bad experience with SVS or are you speaking from other's opinions?
Joe

ginovino

01-07-08, 04:44 PM

i may be wrong but i thought that svs has been around since the mid 90's doubt
they are going under any time soon especially at their prices.

Some times industry insiders have a perspective not available immediately to the public;)

Direct marketing companies keep prices low by eliminating manufacturers reps and other middleman, plus savings by manufacturing "on Demand", reducing inventory overstock and wasted expenses. They work on a close profit margin and word of mouth can only take them so far.

You need to realize this brethren of ours is very small versus the vast HT market segment. You forget many folks buy their stuff in Sears, Walmart, costco, Sam's club, Bj's Wholesale to name a few. Along with their TV purchase they just might add a H.T.I.B for $199.00!!!:eek::eek::eek:

So think about how many Subs need to be sold in order for a company like SVS to stay liquid! HSU on the other hand has a reputation beyond HT. A good deal of his manufacturing is in sound reinforcement and studio construction. The same holds through for big time names like Bryston:D

unavol

01-07-08, 04:46 PM

:) congrats on your purchase!

It would take some doing to top these little wonders for the price. As for the sub, Certainly a MkII version of a HSU sub is likely better than what you have now. You can find several on Videogon.com or Audiogon.com for very good negotiable prices.

Shy away from the brand of the moment i.e.: "Earthquake, SVS" and so on. Stay with the companies who will support you in a year or two.

Am I to gather you went with 4 Atoms? Did you buy the Premier mb-60 wall mounts for them? In not, how are you mounting them?:confused:
Thanks. Just one pair of Atoms for my fronts right now. In the past few months I've replaced a receiver, DVD player, and all speakers so I'll have to stick with what I've got for the time being...including the sub. It's not the best in the world, but it's still great compared to what I've been using for the past several years (a cheap htib with a 6 in passive sub). I need to lay low on the spending for a while or the wife is going to feel like she needs a new wardrobe to go with my new HT.

The Atoms are on a shelf, so I didn't buy any mounts. I bought them primarily to improve my music listening experience and it's working. I'm hearing things I've never heard before. Even on albums I've been listening to for over 20 years. Everything sounds new to me again and I'm loving it. I wish I would have found out about Paradigm 10 years ago.

dbacksfan51

01-07-08, 06:39 PM

My room is bright as well... I would trim the high end with the eq in the preamp if it has one... My pioneer receiver has that ability with individual channels... I trim them back a bit here too.. they are a tad to bright on some material..

What preamp are you running...?

Integra DTC 9.8. I think I will try that, instead of using the Audyssey room calibration. I also installed room treatments recently, but since it is a open great room, there is only so much you can do. Bass is much tighter now, just need to play with the highs.

jkhome

01-07-08, 08:53 PM

I read through about 50 pages of this thread, and started to get tired. How many of you have done this swap? Are you happy with the results. From what I read, it makes them a bit less harsh. Also how much have you paid for them, and were the dealers reluctant to order them for you.
Thanks in advance.

I entertained the idea, emailed Paradigm about it, they stated they disapproved of diy and it would void the warranty of my v3s.

Of course the v4s are so new, don't know how a dealer could get a pair of new tweeters without a warranty return of the old ones, maybe it's doable.

My plan was to later pick up a pair of used 20v4s, and switch the tweeters with my 60s,. (that's assuming they use the same tweeter model across the line?) That way the 60s would match a future 690 center, and the 20s would match my old 470 dipoles.

Whatda say Mr. Gino, do they use the same tweeter across the entire Studio v4 line?

Ventoso

01-07-08, 09:12 PM

I just purchased a pair of Studio 100's not long before Christmas. Piece-by-piece I'll eventually be able to afford an entire 5.1 system. :)

Warpdrv

01-07-08, 09:48 PM

So think about how many Subs need to be sold in order for a company like SVS to stay liquid!

Shy away from the brand of the moment i.e.: "Earthquake, SVS" and so on. Stay with the companies who will support you in a year or two.

ginovino
I was appreciating your information up until this point... SVS has treated their customers extremely well over the years, and stand behind their product better then most any other company I have ever seen. I'd like to see you sending your customer an amp overnight, or replace a driver that fast... please...

I own a full Paradigm system $5.5K (Love them) and have emailed them on a number of occasions, and with their lack of response in anywhere near a timely manner is pathetic, so your claiming that this is a top service company and SVS is a "Flavor of the Month"? What month are you talking about here, as it takes that much time for Paradigm to email me back reguarding any of my questions. SVS will answer my questions via email within 24hrs or less. Or I can call them DIRECTLY and talk to someone immediately, not an answering machine or have to go through my dealer.

Does Paradigm offer a transferrable warrantee, with a legitamate sale? Hell no... Your comments are way out of line here, is it because SVS jepordizes your bottom line. The only sub that Paradigm produces that is competitive of SVS's stuff which is close to double the price range is the Servo 15.v2, now with SVS's Ultra13 for less money, measurements of the Ultra13 trump the best sub that Paradigm makes period, I'll bet your not selling a whole lot of those - because of the internet is giving people a chance to educate themselves and save money while still getting a excellent product. What a shame, you can't rely on the ignorant consumer anywheres near as much as you used to be able to.

Don't talk trash about SVS, they make a quality product, that is better then what you can buy in a store, I'll bet that if you had a chance to profit off them by offering their subs in your store, you would have a different opinion. All your doing here by wrongly portraying them is making an A$$ out of yourself...

fleaman

01-07-08, 10:28 PM

inter-direct companies in general have pretty good service....usually much better than a big company like Paradigm. They know service and the new internet forum format is key to increased sales. Big companies either haven't quite figured that out or were just caught off guard by the instant feedback public forums provide.

I tried a internet-direct company....one with a huge fan base (especially on their own forum). I was interested for years and finally went for it last year after much research on their own forum and others + reviews on online mags. Yet unfortunately they were voiced so differently than my Studio 60's (1st version), that I couldn't adapt. The difference was like putting a towel over the midrange and tweeters on the Paradigms to match the online speaker. I expected a little laid backness, yet this was at least -6db down from about 5-6khz on up.

Luckily, as it was, I returned the whole system for a refund. Unfortunately the shipping was on me for the return trip...$170. I knew the risk I was taking and I learned a lesson.

I ended up getting a good deal on Used Studio 60's V.3 which were a very nice upgrade to my V.1's.

I don't expect Paradigm to be as good with CS as the inter-direct guys, yet at least for me, I won't be returning anything to them and I'm very happy with my 60 V.3's audio performance.

Warpdrv

01-07-08, 10:34 PM

Luckily, as it was, I returned the whole system for a refund.

I don't expect Paradigm to be as good with CS as the inter-direct guys, yet at least for me, I won't be returning anything to them and I'm very happy with my 60 V.3's audio performance.

No 45 day return policy with Paradigms, from my dealers mouth... "no returns - period" So no in home trial..

fleaman

01-07-08, 10:50 PM

No 45 day return policy with Paradigms, from my dealers mouth... "no returns - period" So no in home trial..

The generous inter-direct return policy is of course warranted since stores don't have 'em set up for comparisons to other brands. Paradigm by purpose is a brick-dealer company with NO internet sales allowed. In theory you'd get a good idea what Paradigms are like at the dealer and many good dealers will let you demo at home if you're serious. If their are any warranty probs the dealer of course will handle it....so no shipping costs to the customer, in theory.

They both have pros/cons, yet I and most have no real practical way to demo many different inter-direct speaker brands side-by-side. As generous as the home trial is with the inter-direct speakers I tried, it still cost me $170 with shipping...yet it coulda been twice that since I bought them on special which covered free shipping.

milky way

01-07-08, 11:16 PM

They both have pros/cons, yet I and most have no real practical way to demo many different inter-direct speaker brands side-by-side. As generous as the home trial is with the inter-direct speakers I tried, it still cost me $170 with shipping...yet it coulda been twice that since I bought them on special which covered free shipping.
Yea, that's what I was afraid of. I probably need to demo a few different brands to find what I really like, it can easily cost near $1000 and still disappointed. Local store may cost more - for me, it is probably cheaper and more pleasant. However, if you buy a sub for HT, as long as it hits hard and low, sound quality is not the main concern.

jkhome

01-08-08, 07:42 AM

No 45 day return policy with Paradigms, from my dealers mouth... "no returns - period" So no in home trial..

That’s a dealer call...of the two in my area, one has the same attitude as yours.

The other (whom I do business with) offers a 30-day no questions return policy, and a one-year trade up option.

unavol

01-08-08, 09:46 AM

My dealer also said that I could bring mine back if I wasn't satisfied.

As for the comment on SVS hurting Ginovino's Paradigm sub sales, he has recommended several times to multiple people to go with a sub from a brand other than Paradigm. I think he was just giving an opinion and trying to be helpful.

mazersteven

01-08-08, 12:58 PM

Shy away from the brand of the moment i.e.: "Earthquake, SVS" and so on. Stay with the companies who will support you in a year or two.

Gino,

I have no idea about Earthquake, but please share with us your infamous wisdom about SVS. How have you come to this conclusion that SVS will not support you in a year or two? I can't wait to hear this. :rolleyes:

tryguy

01-08-08, 12:59 PM

Can you please be specific in your concern with SVS?

MasonWire

01-08-08, 04:45 PM

ginovino

01-08-08, 05:29 PM

It would appear I have pulled a scab off and created an open wound with a number of posters!:confused:

Rather than copy each quote into my next comments, Folks in posts: #6153, 6155, 6156, seem to understand where I am coming from. Poster mazersteven somehow reads like their ego was injured.

To speak of Warpdrv's # 6149 post is all telling with an aire of even greater injury almost sounding like a vested interest may be at hand. Employee? principal? None the less he no longer values my opinion or so it appears.

Those posts I referenced to clearly identify that I make comments both positively and negatively about products retailed from my establishment.

I clearly stated on more than one occasion to avoid the Paradigm sub series as there are many subs in the market in similar price levels which out perfrom them unit for unit. The HSU company is one example, Snell another, Thiel, JL lab, Fathom, Definitive (some models) and YES even SVS & Earthquake!!!;)

My point was two pronged, (guess you missed it) First buy from reliable manufacturers through a dealer network thus providing you recourse and assistance many times not available buying directly form the manufacturer.

Even with 30-45 day return policies your plagued with outrageous shipping costs to and fro. Just take that money and move up one notch in SUB quality from among the numerous brands.

Stay with companies which have been around a while (15 or more years) They have weathered the storm with consumer acceptance, Dealer support and of course financially. They have a reputation at stake and proven their worth.

It would make your head spin If I shared the brands that came and went in my store. Some of the biggest over the years, M & K, Infinity, Hafler, Onkyo, Thorens, VPI, Meridian, Sota to name a few.

The comments about Paradigm customer service are valid within reason, you have reason to gripe and maybe even proselytize about how bad it is, and it IS lacking. Both dealers and customers alike bang our heads against the wall. They have actually just One Customer Service/TECH person: GARY. The guy amazes me on how many balls he juggles. But your correct to complain about the lackluster response time and seemingly failure to respond at all. A caveat is needed here, if the demeanor you've shown in your posting is indicative, then its a wonder they respond at all, albeit slow.

To put it to bed before the it comes up. I have not sold to or, done business with any poster on this forum. While I have answered 10's of dozens of PM's , not a one has generated a business interaction. So making reference to carrying this brand or not that brand or one of the brands under discussion and thereby I am envious or the earning opportunity is ludicrous. So in the interest of fairness lets not go there...

We also carry Audio Research, Clasee', Rotel, Denon, Thiel, Martin Logan, Anthem, Primaire, Magnum Dynalab, AudioQuest and Monster Power among others. Have you seen me promote those brands here? Of course not and for good reason, its not appropriate as the brands have NOT evolved within the discussions and should they the gloves are off.

To place the comments posted pro and con into perspective- They are opinions and like ARS--holes, everyone has one:D

I don't believe I have misguided anyone, I have addressed areas that folks should be apprised of and be prudent when investing 1000's of $$. No one need read my posts or take my advice, though even so I won't refrain from sharing my years of experiences and hopefully help someone along the way.;)

I am posting more frequently of late, because I have the time.

If some of you have taken my reference to SVS & Earthquake literally, then I am sorry... I used those brands as a point of reference and not because of some hidden knowledge on my part which I may or may not possess, or through Machiavellian logic I am setting out to undermine those manufacturers... In fact I wish them well as they are making many audiophiles sonically happy :):):)for the prices paid.

Caveat Emptor:cool:

ginovino

01-08-08, 05:35 PM

Personally, I’ve been very happy with my SVS ultra-13 subwoofer and Paradigm studio 100’s (v.4) setup. However, for an informative forum that compares and rates a wide variety of subwoofers, try the following link. This is just one of many sources you look at when considering a subwoofer purchase. Hope this helps!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9164136#post9164136

PS- Although, I highly disagree with Gino’s assessment of the SVS, he’s been a valuable asset to this forum.

Great link. It should be stickied to this forum!!!!! It pretty much supports my own findings and "personal biases" as spread out over many posts. He he he

Better hide it quick as some other posters make take offense to it!!! :D:D:D

Good work!!

fleaman

01-08-08, 05:38 PM

ginovino

01-08-08, 06:27 PM

Remember that since Paradigm does not sell directly to the public, nor through the internet (not allowed), in theory all CS issues would be dealt with through the Paradigm Dealer, not Paradigm directly.

A good dealer will deal with any real probs promptly (regardless of Paradigms policy or delays)....but of course I wouldn't expect rock bottom Paradigm prices from that dealer.

That said, I've bought my Studio's over the years all used.

You are indeed correct on your assessments. Most dealers that I am aware of would prefer to have you present upon delivery and open the crates to test the components before you leave the store. this insures the units are not damaged and are operating appropriately.

Paradigm has put a big time hurt on we dealers in the NY city tristate area ( NY, CT, NJ) by offering their products for sale in one of newest BIG BOX Brick & Mortar stores: 6th Ave Electronics. This place is set up great and looks beautiful and generally located in primo shopping locations. But the folks working there are clueless. They wouldn't know Bitstream from PCM if it hit them across their Arse! The sonic setups negatively impact the sonics of mostly every quality speaker line they promote.

Try and get service from those folks! I guess the days of the Mom & Pop Dealer are nearing and end quickly. Rock bottom prices versus service make the choice!:rolleyes:

dbacksfan51

01-08-08, 06:33 PM

I am guessing most dealers would have some sort of return policy. It may not be 45 days, but I would think at least 2 weeks. The one thing I did like from my Paradigm dealer, that most of the internet direct companies, do not do, is the upgrade policy. I was able to upgrade my Monitor 7's, to Studio 60's, as well as my center channel, for the full value of the Monitors. I also run a SVS sub, and recently upgraded from a PB12NSD to a PB13U with my 60's and love it. After hearing several different Paradigm subs, I would not even look at one. Most store bought subs, are too expensive for what you can get from the internet direct companies. In my opinion, the internet direct companies, have to be better, because the internet is what made them, and will also kill them as well.

dbacksfan51

01-08-08, 06:40 PM

You are indeed correct on your assessments. Most dealers that I am aware of would prefer to have you present upon delivery and open the crates to test the components before you leave the store. this insures the units are not damaged and are operating appropriately.

Paradigm has put a big time hurt on we dealers in the NY city tristate area ( NY, CT, NJ) by offering their products for sale in one of newest BIG BOX Brick & Mortar stores: 6th Ave Electronics. This place is set up great and looks beautiful and generally located in primo shopping locations. But the folks working there are clueless. They wouldn't know Bitstream from PCM if it hit them across their Arse! The sonic setups negatively impact the sonics of mostly every quality speaker line they promote.

Try and get service from those folks! I guess the days of the Mom & Pop Dealer are nearing and end quickly. Rock bottom prices versus service make the choice!:rolleyes:

That really sucks that the big box companies are starting to sell Paradigm speakers. I understand companies want money, but that is one of the things that make these speakers special. I think there is only 1 store in Arizona that sells Paradigms, and they have been around forever. I would guess if BB or CC started selling them, they would be out of business. When I made my switch from Monitors, to the Studio series, My salesperson, and I spent a few hours in the listening room A/Bing the monitors, to the studios, to see if this was what I really wanted. Try this at BB. Even the ones with the Mini Magnolias built in, are not really setup that well.

ginovino

01-08-08, 06:58 PM

That really sucks that the big box companies are starting to sell Paradigm speakers. I understand companies want money, but that is one of the things that make these speakers special. I think there is only 1 store in Arizona that sells Paradigms, and they have been around forever. I would guess if BB or CC started selling them, they would be out of business. When I made my switch from Monitors, to the Studio series, My salesperson, and I spent a few hours in the listening room A/Bing the monitors, to the studios, to see if this was what I really wanted. Try this at BB. Even the ones with the Mini Magnolias built in, are not really setup that well.

That's among the points I attempted to make in a circuitous way. The dealer spent time and nurturing, with you. Answering the questions (assuming they were worth their salt), changing equipment, cables, sources. This is time and time is money, plain and simple.

Would I sell a Paradigm sub---of course, I have to feed the family. But Given a choice I try to help the customer and attempt to get them the best sound they can afford. Not the best sound I can sell within a given brand.

I have been known to walk them over to my store computer and link them to Brands other than those on premise;). how many big box stores, deliver and setup for the customer?

I have many customer who are astute and are "bottom line" buyers. I sell to them on close margins and they continue to return. Though the "bottom line" is for them and them alone, not extended family and friends. Those who walk in are treated with respect and fairness. Though I will never low ball to keep the customer in the store.. They will take your price and still go somewhere else. Then when they get there, find out they were better off buying with me!!!:cool:

intence

01-08-08, 07:03 PM

jkreidler

01-08-08, 07:16 PM

Looking for input based on Experience if possible........

Have the following:
Monitor 11 V.5 L/R
Monitor CC-390 in route from local dealer.....
Klipsch Synergy III 4.5 or 5.75 Not sure which.....for side channels
Dayton Audio 6.5" in ceiling rears with can back boxes and directional tweeters
SVS PB12Plus/2
Acoustically Treated room and....BlahBlahBlah

My question is would you recommend I change out the Klipsch for Paradigm ADP-190 or 390's?

Direction is appreciated......
Joe

JakeK

01-08-08, 07:36 PM

I need some help here. My room is 18 feet x 13 feet and I'm trying to figure out which speaker would be most suitable for this room size and giving me the option to expand to a 5.1 setup when I have more money available. Right now, I'm thinking of going with a 2.1 setup with the Atom Monitors as the fronts. Originally I had the Mini Monitors and even the Studio 20s, but I think the Studios may be a bit overkill for my small room. I have no intention of future proofing of maybe moving to a bigger room. What do you guys think? Money is an issue as I'm going to stick with 2.1 for now and maybe by the end of this year or early next year, I'll complete the migration to a surround sound system. Atom Monitors or Mini-Monitors? If not, what do you guys recommend?

My living room is about the same area but with different dimensions. I have the Studio 20's and they sound fantastic. I was originally going to buy the Mini Monitors, but after having the opportunity to compare the two sets I easily upgraded. My system is just two channels with a Denon AVR-687 receiver.

If money is truly the deciding factor I would go with the Mini's hands down. You'd be hard pressed to find a better sounding speaker for less.

Warpdrv

01-08-08, 10:22 PM

Just to be clear, I have no affiliation with SVS, not an employee.. I have many people that can attest to the fact that I am a sole business owner, and I'm very happy to say that.

Shy away from the brand of the moment i.e.: "Earthquake, SVS" and so on. Stay with the companies who will support you in a year or two.

Its one thing to make a claim about companies coming and going from your store, as their products just didn't make it or their business model couldn't make it in our ever changing, fast moving, commercial world. But telling people to Stay away from a certain company that makes a good product, and is extremely well respected amongst the (now internet driven) audio community, while promoting a similar (HSU subwoofers) internet company wreaks of a disgruntled past history you have had with them...
It seems to me that they have figured out a business model that works in this day and age, as the continuing progression of new products seems to show they have what it takes to make it...

I am a proud owner of 4 SVS subs, and would buy more, if I hadn't started into the DIY adventure of my own version of monster subs..
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/SVSFamilyPhoto.jpg

Now I know nothing of Earthquake,
I just find it tasteless and of poor character to tell people directly to avoid certain brands that provide a good quality product and stand behind it... and not give specific reasons why, regarding SVS and SVS only.

mazersteven

01-08-08, 10:45 PM

. But telling people to Stay away from a certain company that makes a good product, and is extremely well respected amongst the (now internet driven) audio community, while promoting a similar (HSU subwoofers) internet company wreaks of a disgruntled past history you have had with them...

Why Warp,

Are you calling him a HSU fanboy. :eek: ;)

sandman9601

01-09-08, 12:20 AM

General noobie question:

People are saying that the CC690 is overkill if you use Studio 20's as fronts. If you have a sub (I won't say the name SVS, don't worry ;)), wouldn't the 690 give you a wider front soundstage? I'm just not seeing why the fronts and center are so dependent on each other. Assuming you're timbre matched, shouldn't you buy the center based on seating area size and the fronts based on low-freq response?

lk10

01-09-08, 10:42 AM

Can anyone tell me if the ADP surrounds (I'm getting the 190's) come with any sort of mounting hardware, or do I need to get something from Home Depot? If so, what would you all recommend?
They do come with mounting brackets.

ginovino

01-09-08, 11:07 AM

They do come with mounting brackets.

You may want to check the Paradigm website to download a manual and check over installation procedures.

ginovino

01-09-08, 11:29 AM

Just to be clear, I have no affiliation with SVS, not an employee.. I have many people that can attest to the fact that I am a sole business owner, and I'm very happy to say that.

Its one thing to make a claim about companies coming and going from your store, as their products just didn't make it or their business model couldn't make it in our ever changing, fast moving, commercial world. But telling people to Stay away from a certain company that makes a good product, and is extremely well respected amongst the (now internet driven) audio community, while promoting a similar (HSU subwoofers) internet company wreaks of a disgruntled past history you have had with them...
It seems to me that they have figured out a business model that works in this day and age, as the continuing progression of new products seems to show they have what it takes to make it...

I am a proud owner of 4 SVS subs, and would buy more, if I hadn't started into the DIY adventure of my own version of monster subs..
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/SVSFamilyPhoto.jpg

Now I know nothing of Earthquake,
I just find it tasteless and of poor character to tell people directly to avoid certain brands that provide a good quality product and stand behind it... and not give specific reasons why, regarding SVS and SVS only.

I have not interacted with SVS or Earthquake for that matter. My caveats were based on customer, other dealers and MFG Rep comments which came my way. I continue to state I used those names as we were speaking about Subwoofers and they came to mind. For that matter I am reluctant to sell Thiel Subwoofers as there are several brands for less money which outperform them and I AM A THIEL DEALER!

It seems we continue to fire across each others bow. Now I am being relegated to being "tasteless and in poor character".:confused:

It is time for a cease fire. No more fires or better yet, flaming.

Enjoy your SVS products as they satisfy you and a great number of others as they should. They are rated highly by reviewers both in Audio though more so in HT forums.

I will however continue to urge readers in directions which may be contrary to yours. It is ultimately their decision to accept or trash my suggestions.

You are an eloquent writer and made your case cogent. I respect that and tip my hat. Let us continue to agree to disagree! Moreover, assist the less astute to elevating their sonic knowledge!:)

dpd

01-09-08, 12:57 PM

Warpdrv

01-09-08, 01:57 PM

You are an eloquent writer and made your case cogent. I respect that and tip my hat. Let us continue to agree to disagree! Moreover, assist the less astute to elevating their sonic knowledge!:)

Ahhh disarm them with nicety's... very well, we will have to agree to disagree... ;)

nelson57

01-09-08, 02:34 PM

You are indeed correct on your assessments. Most dealers that I am aware of would prefer to have you present upon delivery and open the crates to test the components before you leave the store. this insures the units are not damaged and are operating appropriately.

Paradigm has put a big time hurt on we dealers in the NY city tristate area ( NY, CT, NJ) by offering their products for sale in one of newest BIG BOX Brick & Mortar stores: 6th Ave Electronics. This place is set up great and looks beautiful and generally located in primo shopping locations. But the folks working there are clueless. They wouldn't know Bitstream from PCM if it hit them across their Arse! The sonic setups negatively impact the sonics of mostly every quality speaker line they promote.
Try and get service from those folks! I guess the days of the Mom & Pop Dealer are nearing and end quickly. Rock bottom prices versus service make the choice!:rolleyes:

Ginovino, I love you brother, but I have to defend my guys at 6th Ave, since I have some in my area, and deal with them regularly. The reps that I deal with there are quite knowledgable, and they have provided me with excellent service.

Just one example: I purchased a Pioneer 94 Blu-Ray player in approx August 07, only to later learn that Pioneer was releasing a new 95 player. When I called 6th Ave, they told me to hold on to the 94, and when they got the 95's in they'll just swap it out. Got my 95 in November, swapped with no problem.

I also get great pricing on my gear including my Paradigm speakers and one of the reps is a member of the AVS forum, so you might want to be more careful in how you phrase some of your comments so that you don't mistakenly offend others,

Don't want appear as if I'm ganging up on you, but I did have to defend my guys at 6th Ave.

ginovino

01-09-08, 06:01 PM

Ginovino, I love you brother, but I have to defend my guys at 6th Ave, since I have some in my area, and deal with them regularly. The reps that I deal with there are quite knowledgable, and they have provided me with excellent service.

Just one example: I purchased a Pioneer 94 Blu-Ray player in approx August 07, only to later learn that Pioneer was releasing a new 95 player. When I called 6th Ave, they told me to hold on to the 94, and when they got the 95's in they'll just swap it out. Got my 95 in November, swapped with no problem.

I also get great pricing on my gear including my Paradigm speakers and one of the reps is a member of the AVS forum, so you might want to be more careful in how you phrase some of your comments so that you don't mistakenly offend others,

Don't want appear as if I'm ganging up on you, but I did have to defend my guys at 6th Ave.

You have been fortunate enough to garner an exception to the rule. My trips to the 2 showrooms on Long Island, NY to buy a Panasonic TH50PX600U 50" plasma were a mixed bag.

The first store, the sales rep gave me a litany of BS about how much "truer" the color was on LCD (the model of the moment), then I asked to watch a Sports broadcast, sure enough the lag lines were there for all to see, in fact they looked like mouse trails. When I pointed that out and the difficulty with side angle viewing- this guy says " oh, but that won't happen in your home, besides who sits on the side of the TV screen"?? When I persisted he says " its the fluorescent lights in the store causing a beat frequency"!! What BS!!!
I asked for the model I was interested in he gave some bogus price, I said I would like to pay the Website price. He proceeded to give a line about how it was not available in the store for that price, as Panasonic won't allow deep discounts. What the F--- was this guy talking about??? A Real BS artist of the first order. To wit, I said I'm walking if the price is not met. I walked!

The second store the salesrep was clueless about 1080p/24fps feature of the model, but Sold me the unit for the very good price posted on the Website ($350 less than store price). I didn't bother recanting the prior episode with him.

As for discounting Paradigm- True enough! Its the matching of speakers with the proper amplification that come up short. Studio 40's with 80wpc Pioneers, when a 100wpc Denon or Yamaha is a better match. Worst yet, no opportunity to swap out the speakers or electronics for other units.

But thats virtually all Big box stores however.

As for ganging up on me- - fear not , I'm a big boy. I note that no complaints were posted chastising me for given away "family" secrets and I must then be a disgruntled dealer when I shared the dealer cost prices for Paradigm products;)

ginovino

01-09-08, 06:20 PM

nelson57

01-09-08, 06:25 PM

Hey Ginovino,

Like I noted in earlier post, I appreciate the information you share, and posting dealer cost was a bold move that I'm sure was helpful and appreciated.

I have been fortunate over here in NJ not to experience what you did in the 6th Ave stores you visted,so I understand what would generate those comments. I have no doubt that reps like that are out there, some are probably over here too. By my guys Steve, and Sam in the Paramus NJ stores are top notch.

I would expect that you treat your customers as well as they do me. So stay strong, and keep posting.

Warpdrv

01-09-08, 10:34 PM

Hey Guys,

New to the theard, and have just started to compile a HT with a buget in mind. I bought L/R Monitor 7s v5, and within the year plan to add a center channel, surrounds, and sub. At the moment however, I am trying to decide on 3 receivers....

They would be, Denon 2808 or 2308, Pioneer Elite VSX-91TXH

Any thoughts on the performance, or which would make the monitors come alive so to speak?

Thanks in advance

Hey dpd.... I will interject my viewpoint here, I have looked at all 3 of the units you are proposing here... I have been patiently waiting for a all inclusive Pre-amp for 2 years, and so far the only thing that has surfaced has been the Onkyo/Integra 885/9.8 that has the Reon Processor for Upscaling... but I digress here..

I found the units that denon was offering to be lacking in one form or another at and about the same price range of the VSX-91... I was looking for video switching only, as I don't have 1080p yet.

Actually the sister unit of the VSX-91 is the Pioneer VSX-9120THX-K unit might be found for a cheaper price.... I bought that unit for $750.00 from my wholesale buddy, and it works perfectly, I also have last years unit the 8120 which is the same unit except for the added codecs and HDMI 1.3.

I use both of them with an external amp, and they are flawless..
Seems to me that most of the Denon units have alot of people complaining in the relevant threads.. Ultimately the Pioneers will be temporary until I find that everything Pre-Amp unit I have been in search of... but so far they are perfect..

joffer

01-09-08, 11:30 PM

dpd

01-10-08, 11:03 PM

Thanks guys for your input, I will likely be heading to the store tomorrow or saturday, and try them both out, see what sounds better to my ears....But i am leaning toward the VSX 91TXH...

jesterguy

01-11-08, 12:04 AM

just wanted to say a quick thanks to everyone that has shared their information and knowledge with me. I'm finally picking up a few of my speakers tomorrow that I got a KILLER deal on, I couldn't even believe my ears when he told me about it but I'm pretty excited. I'll post up some more details tomorrow when I'm back from the store. Thanks again everyone!

James

Spartan300

01-11-08, 11:12 AM

I have the reference series studio 60 v4 with the cc-690 center and was wondering if it is that critical to stick with the studio ADP-590 for the surrounds or would it be ok to go with the monitor series ADP-390? My room is 16'x 13". I know the front speakers should be timber matched but is that necessary for the surrounds?

Dan Hitchman

01-11-08, 11:57 AM

Dan Hitchman

01-11-08, 12:00 PM

Logic_BomB

01-11-08, 12:03 PM

Anybody with "insider" information know how long the Studio v.4 series will be made? I'm trying to slowly build upon some Studio 100 v.4's and don't want to have to scramble to make up a system before the v.5's start coming out. I want to stay with timbrally matched stuff.

Thanks!

Dan

It's nice that you are thinking of this - I didn't bother and now I have a pair of 60's V.3's that I might be hard pressed to find matching 20/40's for in a year or so when I want to spread my wings to 5.1. If I can avoid audiogon and ebay I'll be really happy but I fear I might already be in that territory now, let alone in a year from now :/

Although worst case scenereo would be I simply use 60's V.3 for the front mains and use V.4's for surround. I highly doubt I'll notice any difference in timbre but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it I suppose.

Warpdrv

01-11-08, 12:09 PM

It's nice that you are thinking of this - I didn't bother and now I have a pair of 60's V.3's that I might be hard pressed to find matching 20/40's for in a year or so when I want to spread my wings to 5.1. If I can avoid audiogon and ebay I'll be really happy but I fear I might already be in that territory now, let alone in a year from now :/

Although worst case scenereo would be I simply use 60's V.3 for the front mains and use V.4's for surround. I highly doubt I'll notice any difference in timbre but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it I suppose.

Nothing wrong with Audiogon whatsoever... I bought a few things on there, and had great results... and save some money...

oztech

01-11-08, 12:13 PM

jesterguy

01-11-08, 05:44 PM

ginovino

01-11-08, 05:54 PM

here's my speakers from today, I only picked up 3 of the 5, had to order the other two. Decided to grab the Studio 40's and the CC-590. Have the sub, receiver, etc. on the way as well. It hurts to have them just sitting there! Not as much as my wallet hurts though :) Here's a naked picture:

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3145/paradigm01mc8.jpg

I hope my info helped you a little in the price negotiations;):):)

Now make sure you use first rate cabling, Kimber Hero or No less than AQ slade.

For the sub-- look for AQ SUB-3..... it is beyond belief!!!!

Congrats and good luck!

fleaman

01-12-08, 01:02 AM

I hope my info helped you a little in the price negotiations;):):)

Now make sure you use first rate cabling, Kimber Hero or No less than AQ slade.

For the sub-- look for AQ SUB-3..... it is beyond belief!!!!

Congrats and good luck!

I will have to go complete opposite on the cabling recommendations.

Get some good size gauge Ox-free speaker wire from Monoprice or other.

RCA cables....Monoprice or others would probably be just fine too.

If you want to be sure, get a pair of each and do a blind shoot out....meaning have a friend change the cables out of your site. Do multiple shoot out/tests at different levels, different music, etc. At least 20-40 times, randomly changing the cables an equal but random amount of times. If you can't pick the difference better than 50% of the time, then there is no audible difference to you. Save hundreds to thousands of dollars on cable.

BTW, to date there has never been a ABX double blind cable shootout that ever proved anyone can tell the difference better than flipping a coin.

Others will dissagre with me of course....yet none of them have ever consistently picked out a cable in a blind test ;)

DrPainMD

01-12-08, 06:21 AM

I will have to go complete opposite on the cabling recommendations.

Get some good size gauge Ox-free speaker wire from Monoprice or other.

RCA cables....Monoprice or others would probably be just fine too.

If you want to be sure, get a pair of each and do a blind shoot out....meaning have a friend change the cables out of your site. Do multiple shoot out/tests at different levels, different music, etc. At least 20-40 times, randomly changing the cables an equal but random amount of times. If you can't pick the difference better than 50% of the time, then there is no audible difference to you. Save hundreds to thousands of dollars on cable.

BTW, to date there has never been a ABX double blind cable shootout that ever proved anyone can tell the difference better than flipping a coin.

Others will dissagre with me of course....yet none of them have ever consistently picked out a cable in a blind test ;)

+1

ginovino

01-12-08, 11:43 AM

"BTW, to date there has never been a ABX double blind cable shootout that ever proved anyone can tell the difference better than flipping a coin."

Dear Fleaman & DrPain, with all due respect to the 2800+ posts between you both and vaunted position of an AVS special member. Moreover your contributions to sharing the subwoofer test rankings of this forum, add to that the numerous recommendations to publications assisting in improving HTR performance. My hat goes off to you. :) That being written, This where we take the fork in the road.

Your assessments of how the laws of Chance and Probability play out it Audio Equipment evaluation is coming up short by a ton of misinformation, none of which is your fault.

There have been 1000's of examples of the effects component parts have on the output of circuitry designs of all degrees. Why do Blackgate Caps outperform British Split Film caps? What is better to have, massive output capacitors or massive Torodial transformers. Is MDF board better at resonance reduction than Natural woods in speaker manufacture? Does the use of silver over copper in interconnects make the sound bright, brittle or both? Are Eichmann Bullet RCA's better than WBT or Cardas? Do AT&T optical cable designs perform at the level as there Coaxial RCA counterparts.

I could go on and on with comparisons that time and again have proven out.
I too shop from Monoprice cables. They offer great value for their products. In fact tests done by PC magazine some time back showed Monoprice HDMI cabling met HDMI 1.3 standards with their cheapest cable and their Fiber optic cables equaled and some times surpassed those manufactured by 5 others TOTL companies in the test. That speaks volumes.

To summarily discount ABX blind testing is faulty logic and a vacuous.

Can an audio system of substantial $ investment and ideally matched electronics have the resolving power to delineate sonic differences of various components in the audio stream?

I took the liberty to peek at the system you link to in your Signature,

ahhhh, I'll try to be diplomatic: are they old pictures? Your listing of components certainly are not among those Highly regarded by the Audio pundits, magazine reviewers, Audio intelligentsia et al.
I'm certain it meets your needs satisfactorily and provides enjoyment unimaginable by many "Home theater enthusiasts.

At first blush, it seemingly comes up quite short in the potential resolving power needed to make evaluative statements about "Brand/model" specific cabling versus most generic/bulk cabling (i.e. Beldan, Radio Shack etc).

Earlier, I made reference to "ideally matched" components to provide the vehicle to accurately assess differences among source components(cables are source components too!). What I see in your collection is a work in progress.

I like to compare Audio to Diamonds.

Diamonds are universally graded by Clarity, Color, Carat, Cut, Cost.

Most folks can afford a diamond of some degree. Though as you move up the "desire" tree, the diamond responds by coming into its own. Continue to climb the tree and the branches narrow and the diamond takes on a level of brilliance. To move up even slightly, now we enter the rarefied air only a few can or will ever afford to enter. That is what separates the merely good/happy to have, to the humbling great/satisfying to the core audio systems. I admit, I am not there and the likeliness of me ever getting there is little and none in my lifetime.Though like the Diamond dealer, I get to play with the toys and know full well what cables, like diamonds, can add to the performance of even a mediocre conglomeration of electronics.

This litany plays out in virtually every forum, blog, showroom, convention and audio shopping trip. Unless you've been there don't tell my dog can't hunt! :rolleyes:

Here's a peek at my pile of junk in just one of my listening rooms at home, the other has Pioneer Pro1140HD, Yamaha RSX-2700 via Paradigms Minis, Atoms, CC290:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c227/ginovino/system%20pics/IMG_0025.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c227/ginovino/system%20pics/IMG_0034.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c227/ginovino/system%20pics/IMG_0035.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c227/ginovino/system%20pics/IMG_0036.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c227/ginovino/system%20pics/IMG_0031.jpg

Dan Hitchman

01-12-08, 01:02 PM

I'd go with Bluejeanscable 10 or 12 gauge Belden speaker wire. Bananas and spade lugs from WBT (if you're feeling "saucy") or even Bluejeanscable locking banana plugs if you're not.

As for good interconnects, most things are now HDMI between newer components (monoprice.com is good for that), and as for an analog audio connection between a pre-amp and amplifier your guess is as good as mine. Thick, quality copper and quality interconnects are important as well as good shielding. Above that and it's all gravy. I wouldn't spend more than $200 on seven RCA or XLR cables. I bet you get into the realm of snake oil above that level.

Dan

Dan Hitchman

01-12-08, 01:04 PM

Any more info. on how much longer the Studio v.4 line will be manufactured?

Thanks!

jkreidler

01-12-08, 02:12 PM

+1
Jesterguy,
I will +1 the COMMON SENSE, If I was spending your money :), I would spend it on Acoustic Treatment before High End Cables.......My opinion is based on Experience......which makes it a FACT for me which is undebatable :).

12 AWG is recommended for distances over 30 feet by Paradigm.......I have 14 AWG in my walls of my theater, and some custom JKB cables for the LCR's.....If Paradigm thought you needed high end cables to make their speakers purrrr......they would most definitely recommend them.....

This info is in your Paradigm manual, along with setup instructions. This is not a shot across anyones bow it is just my experience which again is undebatable.....

Good Luck.

fleaman

01-12-08, 02:30 PM

Your assessments of how the laws of Chance and Probability play out it Audio Equipment evaluation is coming up short by a ton of misinformation, none of which is your fault.

There have been 1000's of examples of the effects component parts have on the output of circuitry designs of all degrees. Why do Blackgate Caps outperform British Split Film caps? What is better to have, massive output capacitors or massive Torodial transformers. Is MDF board better at resonance reduction than Natural woods in speaker manufacture? Does the use of silver over copper in interconnects make the sound bright, brittle or both? Are Eichmann Bullet RCA's better than WBT or Cardas? Do AT&T optical cable designs perform at the level as there Coaxial RCA counterparts.

I'm only talking cabling here, not components. I'm recommending people actually test cable before they lay out hundreds+ on what I call overpriced snake oil. I would say 100% of the success of high-end cabling sales is the result of anecdotal evidence, pseudo science and most importantly--no blind tests.

There have been double blind ABX tests done on cabling with the results being no one could guess better than chance. If you know of a true double blind ABX test that shows otherwise, please post the link.

As for double blind tests not 'proving' there's a difference? (not sure if that is your opinion?, I couldn't really tell?)> The result of audio pleasure is in our ears, but for many it's also in our mind. Many will feel more pleasure if their hobby is hi-fi and they have a lot of nice beautifully made expensive shiny gear in front of them. It doesn't help their mind/vision to hook up all that gear with what is essentially cheap cabling. In their mind something is wrong. Most buy high end cables, swap out the cheap stuff and convince themselfs it sounds better, but does it really? Does all the opinions here and everywhere of those who swapped out cabling just as I described and noticed an improvement really mean there was an actual Audible improvement, or was it just in the mind? A double blind ABX test would prove if there was a noticeable Audible improvement.

If there is no audible improvement, or no one can (to date) pick the difference in a blind test, why would some still buy high end cabling and notice an improvement? This would be the field of psychology, not audio system performance.

Why would those who dispute the validity of ABX testing for cables turn around and fully accept it for Speakers, amps and other components?

And BTW, pop open the hoods on all your gear and look at the wiring coming off the back panel into the unit...standard stuff there. Blow out the walls in your home and look at the wiring behind the wall....hundreds of feet of 30 cent nomex (for all those that believe in high-end AC cables).

What my gear and credibility adds to my opinion or argument, I don't know. I don't have my gear listed here, but I have Paradigm Studio 60 V.3's, V.1's, Adcom amps, Nad, Onkyo, Hafler. To be honest 98% of my gear is Pro audio, I'm a recording engineer, I have 6 pairs of pro-audio monitors (studio, no PA stuff), Class A gear, tube gear, etc. In fact, you will find that in studio's we all pretty much dispute overpriced cabling. We do use professional cabling that we buy in bulk and assemble ourselfs (Mogami is a popular choice that I have much of), yet in the case of Mogami, it's usually chosen for it's ease of use---it's easy to work with, flexible, etc.

We spend so much $$$ on gear in the studio that we do make sure we can hear the difference before we lay out the bucks. It's easier for us to test that since we have big mixers that allow use to hook up gear on different channels and mute between them. With cabling we just don't notice a difference.

I will end with this: If you or no one can find a noticeable difference with an ABX blind test, then why buy the cables? There is a $1 million dollar challenge to do just that....pick out a super high end speaker cable costing thousands of dollars, from a std Monster cable in a double blind ABX test.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/calling-********/james-randi-offers-1-million-if-audiophiles-can-prove-7250-speaker-cables-are-better-305549.php

Their calling BS and no reputable audiophile is willing to chance their reputation with this test.