Incorrect. When San Diego had two dealers, it showed both of them. Since then once went belly up, but they were displayed.

Edit: If you plug in a LA zipcode, a whole list of dealers appear.

Yup, you're right. I must have been thinking of the issue that you can't choose something like all dealers within a certain mile radius.

It'd be nice if Paradigm offered a more friendly dealer locator on their website.

Paradigm dealers must be feeling the "pinch" that all of us are feeling regarding the economy.

Paradigm sells their goods to the dealer for X, then the dealer can decide after that to sell them for whatever they want. The End. The dealer can sell them and make as little or as much as they want. Paradigm has already made their money.
The people who are selling Paradigm are just humans. Win them over (if you can) before you expect a discount.

Paradigm sells their goods to the dealer for X, then the dealer can decide after that to sell them for whatever they want. The End. The dealer can sell them and make as little or as much as they want. Paradigm has already made their money.
The people who are selling Paradigm are just humans. Win them over (if you can) before you expect a discount.

Yeah, I get this. I'm just not the kind of person that likes to haggle for something. Give me your bottom line price & I'll make a decision.

I'm mostly frustrated because I'm at the mercy of someone who apparently lacks motivation to gain me as a customer. This market needs some competition. Maybe I'll become a dealer... :D

Maximum7 - doesn't "winning people over" become less of an issue when the Paradigm dealer is very, very anxious to make a sale? I'm kind, courteous, have money, would pay promptly - what else am I supposed to do? Throw them a party; vote for their candidate; provide memberships to escort services?

I didn't have to be as "nice" as I have been in the past few months to Paradigm dealers when I was purchasing "hi-end" B&W, Aerial and Revel over the past 10 years and getting much better discounts with much less effort.

Yeah, I get this. I'm just not the kind of person that likes to haggle for something. Give me your bottom line price & I'll make a decision.

Yeah and who isn't that? If you don't need a deal or want the lowest price, then you're not the general public.
If they just gave away the house, what is in it for them? Going in to a store and saying "ok, what is the cheapest you'll go on these speakers and I'll buy it today." What is in it for the dealer? Why should they do it for you? They don't owe you a thing. The dealer is in it, and owns the store to make money, not to save the world from over-paying for speakers.
Attitude is everything when looking for a deal. Ask them how their day is going. Ask them what they think about the product. Make them feel like you value them and they'll value you. In most cases they'll be thinking..."this guy is pretty cool and I'm gonna help him out." Wonder what he is thinking about the guy who comes in and says, "I want these speakers, what kinda deal do I get?"

I'm not accusing nor putting anybody down here, but I'm just asking, think of it from their point of view. Yes, I understand some dealers are just pricks, "but trust me on the sunscreen...."

And, these are the reasons why I continue to find used products that are just as good as new, and sometimes one gets lucky and they are still new in the box !! So they don't come with a warranty, is it worth all the grief and frustration as well as overpaying a greedy dealer.

There is reasonable profit taking, and I think everyone deserves to make a profit, but list price is something I just will not do.

I guess I like a deal as much as the next guy but I really don't sweat the prices of something I want bad enough. If I can afford it Ill buy it. If I can't, I'll wish I could. Usually I am just happy with what I have. I have never been a bargaiin shopper, but I am definitely not charging anything these days.

I'm just wondering, but when we are talking about speakers in the 2K + range what type of discounts are people finding? Is $200 really going to change your mind?

What are the current US retail prices paradigms?

DN

I recently tried the studio 100 at a dealer and was very impressed. I am unsure about buying it new (for about 2600) vs picking up a used pair. The used speakers that show up are usually v3 and below. So I wanted to know peoples opinion about how the sound of the studio 100's has evolved from v1 through v5.

well i just ordered a set of Atom monitor v.5's as surrounds.

I already have the fronts, and the center. a cc-190 and a set of Titan Monitor's v.5

i looked at both the adp-190 and the 390 but they were expensive, and i just wasn't sold on spending that much on those. I got the atoms for a good price i think.

should be in sometime early next week.

my sub should be in this week too. either tomorrow or monday. an SVS cylinder sub.
my reciever is a denon-2808 and my tv is a circuit city, mitusbishi 65" dlp(65-733 equivalent)

yay.

so all told i think i spent more (alot more than i meant to).
2k for the tv
600 for the sub,
1100 for the reciever
275 surrounds,
200 for the center
575 for the fronts.

so about 4500 total.

even with just the fronts and center. im verry happy can't wait for the sub and surrounds

I recently tried the studio 100 at a dealer and was very impressed. I am unsure about buying it new (for about 2600) vs picking up a used pair. The used speakers that show up are usually v3 and below. So I wanted to know peoples opinion about how the sound of the studio 100's has evolved from v1 through v5.

You get a 5 year warranty when you buy new. Sure it costs more, but you are the first owner, you know how they've been treated, you don't have to wonder...

Since the Studio series is only on Version 4 right now....I would venture to say that this is the best version. I have heard the 100's but own the 60's, so most of my opinion is re: the 60's. The new tweeter is smoother, and airy and, well just plain better. The mids are cleaner, more open. Bass is a toss up.

You know it's a shame people don't put their location in their sig. You never know if you're near someone who can get a good deal on this stuff.

Just for you Maximum7

Hi - I have a pair of Monitor 9v.5 speakers. I have a hard time finding spade lugs that fit around the posts. I have tried some from Blue Jeans Cables and RadioShack, but none of them is wide enough. Can anyone recommend a vendor that has suitable lugs?

Thanks. Best - MM

Does nobody here use spade lugs with their Paradigms???

Does nobody here use spade lugs with their Paradigms???

I do. Paradigm uses the larger 5/16" size binding post, instead of 1/4". I use the Audioquest brand. (From Music Direct)

And, these are the reasons why I continue to find used products that are just as good as new, and sometimes one gets lucky and they are still new in the box !! So they don't come with a warranty, is it worth all the grief and frustration as well as overpaying a greedy dealer.

There is reasonable profit taking, and I think everyone deserves to make a profit, but list price is something I just will not do.

I like buying used also, use mainly audiogon. Even though I may buy used Paradigm speakers at a later date; I can't recommend buying used Paradigm to other folks. From what I have read regarding the relationship between Paradigm and their dealers, the dealer comes first, then the customer. All repair work is preferred to be done by the dealer (whether in warranty or not). If one's local dealer refuses to do non-warranty work or order parts for a speaker they didn't sell, that’s fine with Paradigm. And I've heard dealing directly with Paradigm can be frustrating, although I have no personal experience with that.

Other speaker manufacturers are better, some are worst in this regard. It's one of the issues one must be aware of, when buying new or used speakers.

Here's a recent couple of posts from the AA, the poster is buying new, but still has concerns about dealer support.
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/messages/26/266054.html
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/messages/26/266374.html

I have bought both new and used Paradigm speakers. I have had very good experiences both ways. Many things are involved in this decision. Budget, location, trust, dealer, etc. etc. Both have their merrits, and drawbacks. Dealers can be so different. I finally found one that would give a decent discount, so may last purchase was new. Now, for those of you wanting to save a buck, I have a NEW pair of black ash Studio 20's for sale. PM me if interested, but NO, I'm not giving them away either.

Somehow my last question got nudged into the used vs old question. That isnt very important to me. I can buy new if need. However what i am more interested in is how has the sound of the 100 studios evolved from v1 through v4. I remember reading some posts on this forum which suggested that since the Signature series has come out, paradigm has been limiting the studio series to create a gap between the studios and the signature series. The said posts also referred to the fact that v3's sounded better than the current studios. I am concerned about this. My other hobby is cameras, and it really is true in the camera world that the current crop of cameras with higher mega pixels have worse low light performance than older versions (around 6 mega pixels being the sweet spot). So I have seen in cameras at least that the latest models are not neccessarily the best - in fact the fuji f30 now sells for more used after being discontinued than it did when it came out. So I wanted peoples opinion about whether the current series is the "best" of the studio series.

Dawgmatix.... I have recently bought a set of .v1 Sig S4's and also own The Studio 100's in my other system. I will say the Sigs provide a gap between themselves and the .v4 100's in clarity, and possibly a bit better imaging. The tweeter is a bit smoother but not overwhelmingly so. The Sigs are certainly tighter and more composed/accurate, but I can't comment on the .v2 Sigs as I haven't heard them to date. But from what I have read/heard they are spreading the gap much more from the Studio's.

When I was auditioning the .v4's, my dealer didn't get them all in at the time, so I was comparing .v3 Studio 60's to .v4 60's.... There wasn't a huge difference at all, maybe a bit more midrange clarity and a very very slightly smoother nature to the tweeter. Remember they only changed the metal dome on the .v4 tweet, not the whole tweeter. I did feel that Paradigm made a forward more improving SQ and imaging with a better midrange driver.

Thats my take on the progression of the studios, I have never heard any of the prior history of the studios, but when I was buying I did my research on this as well, and there was a huge improvement from opinions from .v2 to .v3, but not so much from .v3 to .v4.

I haven't listened myself, but I have heard it said in at least a few posts that v.3 of the Studio series were tops. A lot of people have felt v.4 was a step backward.

Those who own the Monitor line feel even more has been done to devalue that line than the Studio.

In short, if you can pick up a nice pair of used Studios in v.3, then GO FOR IT. Save yourself some money, and enjoy what others seem to think offer better sound.

I haven't listened myself, but I have heard it said in at least a few posts that v.3 of the Studio series were tops. A lot of people have felt v.4 was a step backward.
In version 4, they completely changed the mid-range driver with a lighter more rigid driver. The dome of the tweet is from the Sig line. which has resulted in a less sibilant tweeter and more laid back which some people might take as lacking if they preferred the bright sound that one used to get.

Those who own the Monitor line feel even more has been done to devalue that line than the Studio.

I highly doubt that Paradigm is intentionally "de-valuing" their line of speakers.
They slimmed down the cabinet to be more asthetically pleasing and most likely figured that since most people were using a sub, the consequential loss of of bass would not be a serious factor. The Monitor line is very efficient and since most people are using a receiver, that is a good thing. The only areas they really missed the mark with the Monitors is in the tweeter as well as build quality (in both lines actually).

I would say older versions of the Monitor line are better, but I would not say the same about the Studio line. Having V.3 and 4 60's in my house at the same time, proved that for me. But then I could be dumb.

I highly doubt that Paradigm is intentionally "de-valuing" their line of speakers.
They slimmed down the cabinet to be more asthetically pleasing and most likely figured that since most people were using a sub, the consequential loss of of bass would not be a serious factor. The Monitor line is very efficient and since most people are using a receiver, that is a good thing. The only areas they really missed the mark with the Monitors is in the tweeter as well as build quality (in both lines actually).

+1

Good call Maximum...

At the same time I was auditioning the Studio lines, the dealer was also blowing out the old Monitor lines for the New .v5's... I went back and forth with them as well... The .v5 line was a huge improvement compared to the .v4's... No question about it. The Dealer was very enthused about the upgrade to the monitor line, as he knew that sales would be compounding....

Although, I still feel to this day, that every time I look at the new Monitor's I just can't help but chuckle and be reminded how they covered the mid range drivers with condoms...

Although, I still feel to this day, that every time I look at the new Monitor's I just can't help but chuckle and be reminded how they covered the mid range drivers with condoms...

One must always safely use your speakers. :D

One must always safely use your speakers

Why do you think they changed the height of the port? ;)

[QUOTE=Maximum7;13728425]In version 4, they completely changed the mid-range driver with a lighter more rigid driver. The dome of the tweet is from the Sig line. which has resulted in a less sibilant tweeter and more laid back which some people might take as lacking if they preferred the bright sound that one used to get.

+1
Studio 40 v.3 has a more forward and brighter sound when listening to Studio CC-590 v.4. But I like version 3 in movies :)

I do. Paradigm uses the larger 5/16" size binding post, instead of 1/4". I use the Audioquest brand. (From Music Direct)

Thanks so much, I'll look into that. Best - MM

Why do you think they changed the height of the port? ;)

Ports on the old monitor line have switched from the front to the back, which one may consider a good thing if they don't like a ferro-fluid tweeter in their face. ;)

I'm wondering whether a separate amplifier would be helpful in my situation;
Titan Monitors
CC-390
ADP-390s

Powered by a Denon 4308

Would an additional power amplifier make a difference that I could hear? Room is approx 19x24. Suggestions?

I'm wondering whether a separate amplifier would be helpful in my situation;
Titan Monitors
CC-390
ADP-390s

Powered by a Denon 4308

Would an additional power amplifier make a difference that I could hear? Room is approx 19x24. Suggestions?

You did not mention a sub and if you have one what is it crossed over at.

Sub is an Elemental Design A5-350. All speakers are crossed over at 80hz and the LFE at 120.

I doubt it will add anything unless you are playing it at very loud levels since the amp
in the 4308 is no slouch.

Thanks for your advice. I'll point out that I'm happy with my setup; I'm just curious what, if anything, more power would / could add.

Thats my take on the progression of the studios, I have never heard any of the prior history of the studios, but when I was buying I did my research on this as well, and there was a huge improvement from opinions from .v2 to .v3, but not so much from .v3 to .v4.

I went from Studio 60 .v1 to .v3's....huge improvement all around!

I actually still have the .v1's set up next to my .v3's on a speaker switcher, so it's quite obvious with improvements/differences.

Got my Studo 60 V.3's locally for $900 used....in pretty much perfect shape, with original boxes. Me be Very happy.

Also, with the v.3's they are designed to work with the grilles ON. They are slightly smoother/less peaky with the grilles on. Make sure to compare with grilles.

Hello All,

I'm a 80% movie / 19% music person. Which setting is the best for 2 channel sound for:

PARIDIGM STUDIO 100 V2
PARIDIGM PS-1000
ROTEL RSP-1068

With towers like the Studio 100's you should have the receiver on 'large', sub off, for stereo music listening.

But, if you prefer it differently...like having the sub handle the sub-lows and the 100's handling everything up from that (setting to small), that's up to you.

For 2ch stereo music I'm a purist....most of the time:)

Man, I love Paradigm speakers!! I still use a pair of old version 1 Mini Monitors in my bedroom setup.... Bought those probably about 8 years ago, I think. Lately, I've been building up a decent desktop setup (so far a Macbook Pro > Apogee Duet > Music Hall A25.2 integrated amp > not-so great speakers). I've ordered an x-sub from AV123, and want to buy a pair of version 5 Atoms. Wish I could find the Atoms online, but no go there... There is no Paradigm dealer where I live, so it'll be a hassle to buy Atoms.

I currently have Atom v3's and a cc-170 v3 from the old performance series. I want to get atom monitors and the cc-190. I went to the dealer and he said it wouldn't be worthy unless I went to the mini monitors or titan monitors. I think he was just trying to get me to spend more. I don't see how they wouldn't be worth it if they have better mids and tweeters, even if they are still small drivers. Thanks for your input!

I currently have Atom v3's and a cc-170 v3 from the old performance series. I want to get atom monitors and the cc-190. I went to the dealer and he said it wouldn't be worthy unless I went to the mini monitors or titan monitors. I think he was just trying to get me to spend more. I don't see how they wouldn't be worth it if they have better mids and tweeters, even if they are still small drivers. Thanks for your input!

It would be a gain but not a giant leap from what you have. Did you audition
them with the same music.

It would be a gain but not a giant leap from what you have. Did you audition
them with the same music.

They don't have a very good setup for auditioning. I might ask them to let me borrow the floor models to listen in my own room. I don't put much faith in demoing at the store.

I currently have Atom v3's and a cc-170 v3 from the old performance series. I want to get atom monitors and the cc-190. I went to the dealer and he said it wouldn't be worthy unless I went to the mini monitors or titan monitors.

I agree with your dealer....

Im considering either Paradigm Atoms or Polk RTi A1's for my front left and right speakers. Why should I the Paradigm over the Polks? or not? Price is similar......

Im considering either Paradigm Atoms or Polk RTi A1's for my front left and right speakers. Why should I the Paradigm over the Polks? or not? Price is similar......

The only reason would be you like the way they sound as with the others
on this thread.

They don't have a very good setup for auditioning. I might ask them to let me borrow the floor models to listen in my own room. I don't put much faith in demoing at the store.

Also most have found that in your room is not always the way it sounds at
the dealer.

I have Studio 100 v.2 speakers -- they are the main F/L for my surround sound music environment.

I've been running phantom center channel for a while, and I'm now ready to pick up a CC-590. However, appears that the current CC-590 line has the same tweeter (G-PAL) as the new Studio 100 V.4 line.

Are there any previous versions of the CC-590 that are a direct match with the older 100 v.2?

Thanks,
Craig

p.s., please PM me if you have an older CC-590 that is a match which you want to sell (or know where I can find one).

The CC-590 & 690 are said to be among the best iterations of Paradigms Studio line Center Channel... IMO this would be a great addition to your setup adding the precision and clarity the new G-Pal offers for voices and effects...

I see on Audiogon.com (search "Paradigm") there are a number of CC's old and new.
Personally I would get a newer one, better design, better clarity, and off axis response is better with a 3 way design, just a better performing product.

Also search Ebay for Paradigm then click home audio on the left side.

Good luck

try this website:

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fs.pl

I've been running phantom center channel for a while, and I'm now ready to pick up a CC-590. However, appears that the current CC-590 line has the same tweeter (G-PAL) as the new Studio 100 V.4 line.

Are there any previous versions of the CC-590 that are a direct match with the older 100 v.2?

Studio CC v.2 will match better with your older Studio 100.
http://cgi.*********/Paradigm-Center-Ch-Speaker-Studio-CC-v-2-Reference-NR_W0QQitemZ270231185334QQihZ017QQcategoryZ14992QQcmdZViewIt em#ebayphotohosting

Im considering either Paradigm Atoms or Polk RTi A1's for my front left and right speakers. Why should I the Paradigm over the Polks? or not? Price is similar......We recently got new speakers and those 2 were our finalists for the L/R speakers. We ended up choosing the Atoms because we were able to get a great demo in a small shop. They had the speakers set up at the same height we would have at home and about the same distance apart. We loved the sound and were absolutely confident about the how they'd be when we got them home. I thought the Polks were good, but maybe not quite as good as the Atoms. That may have been because the places I heard them, such as Fry's, all had the Polks too high and too far apart. So the Polks lost out to us in part because the stores that carried them didn't have as good as demo setups as the Paradigm dealer. We were upgrading from Polks, so we were somewhat inclined to that brand initially. I was actually surprised we ended up with the Paradigms because I had been fairly set on the Polks.

I've been running phantom center channel for a while, and I'm now ready to pick up a CC-590. However, appears that the current CC-590 line has the same tweeter (G-PAL) as the new Studio 100 V.4 line.


Do yourself a favor and get the new one. You're gaining better clarity with V.4, which is never a bad thing with a center (or any spkr.) for that matter.
I think the Studio CC was what the center was called for V.2. You could also try to look for a CC-570. The tweeter/drivers would be more similar to what you have now.

Im considering either Paradigm Atoms or Polk RTi A1's for my front left and right speakers. Why should I the Paradigm over the Polks? or not? Price is similar...

You should consider the 'Digms over the Polks because the Polk owners thread is only 103 pages compared to the 252 page thread here. Obviously then, Paradigm makes a better speaker.


Seriously, only YOU can make that decision. There is no right or wrong, first or second place. ONLY what you think is best.

Do yourself a favor and get the new one. You're gaining better clarity with V.4, which is never a bad thing with a center (or any spkr.) for that matter.
I think the Studio CC was what the center was called for V.2. You could also try to look for a CC-570. The tweeter/drivers would be more similar to what you have now.

+1

There have been many complaints of the earlier produced Center Channels, and the last 2 versions .v3 & .v4 are superior in every aspect. Worth the extra money for the upgrade, and I'm sure they will blend and match just fine.

I'm *very* upset with Paradigm and my dealer isn't being very helpful either. I got a pair of ADP-3 v2s (from a local individual), which Paradigm no longer includes the $10 wall mounting brackets (per a printed insert in the manual). Why they don't include a $10 piece of metal in $3000 speakers is beyond me.

So I called the local dealer a couple of weeks ago to order the brackets. He informs me today that the shipment is nowhere to be found, and the FedEx tracking number Paradigm sent him does not exist. He made several calls, and got no where.

They will need to start all over, and refused to expedite the order at their expense. So it could be another 2-3 weeks of waiting for a $20 item.

Does anyone have a pair of ADP-3 wall mount brackets? I'll gladly pay-pal someone the money. I'm going to call the LA dealers to see if they happen to have a set in stock they can mail me.

Given this treatment by the dealer and Paradigm, I'll reconsider any future Paradigm purchases. This is just not good business, all for $10 pieces of metal.

Edit: No LA stores have them in stock. But I did call Paradigm directly they claim shipping is only one week to the west coast. So they will re-ship, but will not expedite it since they claim FedEx lost the shipment. Personally, I don't think FedEx lost it because the tracking number doesn't even register a pickup scan. So I think Paradigm never shipped it and just gave us a bonus tracking number to cover their you know what.

Edit 2: I called FedEx, and they have no activity whatsoever on the tracking number. Even if FedEx lost it, it would have an origination scan. Paradigm gave my dealer a different tracking number to begin with, which clearly was not my package due to where it was delivered and the weight. Then they claimed they misread the number and changed the last two digits, to a non-existent number. Personally, I'm confident Paradigm dropped the ball, never shipped it, and is blaming FedEx.

This will likely be my last Paradigm purchase, ever. This is ONLY a $20 item for heaven's sake...you would think Paradigm would bend over backwards to help customers that buy equipment that can easily approach five figures.

Edit 3: "Gary" at Paradigm customer service said the speakers should come with the metal hangars for the speakers. The mounting kit the paper insert refers to are wallboard screws, etc. not the two cheap pieces of metal. I called him back again asking about the bogus Fedex number, and pressed him about expedited shipping. He sighed, and in a very unhelpful tone, said "I'll see what I can do, but no promises."

So, yet another week without my functional surrounds. :(

That is just plain STUPID !!!!

The Speaker is a Wall Mount Speaker, that requires a proprietary type of mount, and they don't include them in the box of a $3000 speaker... That has to be the dumbest thing I have ever seen.

yngdiego, find a local metal fabrication shop or a heating/air duct shop, and have them make something up for you, you could probably have it done in a a day or two. It might cost you a bit more, but your already invested here, and it will be easy enough to make, if its anything like my Studio ADP pieces.

I would even be willing to take pictures of what mine looks like to give you something to go off of, if indeed its the same mounting... Send me a picture of the back of the ADP so I can compare.

yngdiego, find a local metal fabrication shop or a heating/air duct shop, and have them make something up for you, you could probably have it done in a a day or two. It might cost you a bit more, but your already invested here, and it will be easy enough to make, if its anything like my Studio ADP pieces.



At first when I ordered the brackets with my dealer he said, "I'm 99% sure you can get them at Home Depot." I went to HD, and the brackets they had were similar, but the hole spacing was not correct. Plus the screws looked very wimpy and didn't want to trust $1600 speakers to them. So I'll just wait a week on the right kit so I know it will mount securely. Thanks for the offer though!

I was about to place a Paradigm order this week but I'm having definite second thoughts about dealing with Paradigm at all now. I had a brief phone call and a couple of emails with a Paradigm dealer who was very underhanded in my opinion and apparently is one dealer who doesn't discount at all (except that he actually does discount). I simply didn't think there was a decent deal and I didn't like the attitude or character of the dealer so I didn't go any further. Yes, you can get discounts on Paradigm but I feel like I'm dealing in stolen uranium or illegal narcotics instead of speakers. I don't know why I'm posting this other than any dealer/company who makes it so difficult to purchase from them should re-evaluate their practices, especially in this economy and the upcoming summer months.

So you're upset with Paradigm because the dealer won't give you as big of a discount as you want?
I would try another dealer or maybe wait until the economy is better for the both of you.

I agree with your dealer....

I don't think I could swing the titans size or price-wise. I'll look into the mini monitors. Do you think it's that great of a difference over the atom monitors?

I simply didn't like the deal and didn't go any further.

That's the best thing you can do, take your money and move on.

Just understand the dynamics of the purchase. Most good dealers save their best discounts for repeat customers and referrals. If this is your first purchase from the dealer don't expect a super deal but don't accept a bad deal either.

Just like buying a car, shop around once you know the make and model you want. Too many options available to not be happy with your purchase.

Just like buying a car, shop around once you know the make and model you want. Too many options available to not be happy with your purchase.

Yeah, but this is the problem with the Paradigm business model (Paradigm paradigm? :confused: ). Some of us don't have any options, because they don't allow internet or mail order purchases. It's buy at list or above from the one dealer in your area (rude, shady, or otherwise), or wait for a used model to come up for sale...

Like I said a few pages ago, from a Paradigm dealer's viewpoint, this is great. From a consumer viewpoint it is extremely frustrating!
:(

So you're upset with Paradigm because the dealer won't give you as big of a discount as you want?
I would try another dealer or maybe wait until the economy is better for the both of you.

Maximum 7: You come across as a "know it all" and your comments sound really uncouth. You dont even know I'm talking about or referring to. You're just making a total assumption and total guess. You should keep your ignorant remarks to yourself until you know what actually happened. You are so totally off base you dont even merit knowing what I'm talking about. I'll save that for the decent guys I know on this forum who actually have something to contribute to the Paradigm thread and who have actually PM'd me to find out the details of why I'm not happy about a certain situation.

Yeah, but this is the problem with the Paradigm business model (Paradigm paradigm? :confused: ). Some of us don't have any options, because they don't allow internet or mail order purchases. It's buy at list or above from the one dealer in your area (rude, shady, or otherwise), or wait for a used model to come up for sale...

Like I said a few pages ago, from a Paradigm dealer's viewpoint, this is great. From a consumer viewpoint it is extremely frustrating!
:(

I wouldn't call it a "problem" with their business model, it's just their business model. Some companies don't want to be all things to all customers. Some want a certain level of perceived exclusivity.

However, if the economy continues to tank more companies will follow Klipsch.

Yeah, but this is the problem with the Paradigm business model (Paradigm paradigm? :confused: ). Some of us don't have any options, because they don't allow internet or mail order purchases. It's buy at list or above from the one dealer in your area (rude, shady, or otherwise), or wait for a used model to come up for sale...


I'm sure in their mind they value for the dollar is enough that the speakers should sell themselves and not internet pricing or dealers giving them away. You do get a great speaker for the price, so it's up to you to decide if they are worth it in your mind.

I'm sure in their mind they value for the dollar is enough that the speakers should sell themselves and not internet pricing or dealers giving them away. You do get a great speaker for the price, so it's up to you to decide if they are worth it in your mind.

Personally, I think selling only through B&M retailers is a business model of the 80s. Today you can buy nearly anything on the internet including cars, etc. There are ways to sell through reputable internet resellers, just like Denon and others do. Plus I found internet sources for the speakers anyway, so it just creates a black/gray market for their product which does more harm than good.

Not everyone has a local dealer, so they would have a larger market by allowing internet sales. It would be hard for me to imagine any company only selling through B&M in 5-10 years, or even today in 2008 for that matter.

Personally, I think selling only through B&M retailers is a business model of the 80s. Today you can buy nearly anything on the internet including cars, etc. There are ways to sell through reputable internet resellers, just like Denon and others do. Plus I found internet sources for the speakers anyway, so it just creates a black/gray market for their product which does more harm than good.

Not everyone has a local dealer, so they would have a larger market by allowing internet sales. It would be hard for me to imagine any company only selling through B&M in 5-10 years, or even today in 2008 for that matter.

There are quite a few speaker companies that are strictly b&m such as
B&W,Revel,Totem,Focal/JM LAB and Vandersteen and i think the reason
besides not letting the brand become discounted would be proper setup
for auditions.

^^^^Agreed^^^^

Sooner or later Paradigm is going to have to take a serious look at their business model again, and decide how they want to walk the walk. If they took the right approach they actually might be able to pull it off in a manor that could be quite profitable for them. They make an absolultely phenomenal product that is extremely marketable, but if they continue to run things the same way, other companies that have forward thinking vision will overtake them and they could lose ground to the companies that are willing to work the system for all its worth.

One business mans forward thinking opinion, but if I'm wrong, please tell me I'm off base here...

Personally, I think selling only through B&M retailers is a business model of the 80s. Today you can buy nearly anything on the internet including cars, etc. There are ways to sell through reputable internet resellers, just like Denon and others do. Plus I found internet sources for the speakers anyway, so it just creates a black/gray market for their product which does more harm than good.

Not everyone has a local dealer, so they would have a larger market by allowing internet sales. It would be hard for me to imagine any company only selling through B&M in 5-10 years, or even today in 2008 for that matter.

I agree with you myself. I'm just thinking what their reasoning might be. I'd love to buy them online as long at it was an authorized dealer. As a dealer though, I wouldn't want people to walk into my store demo the product, and then buy it online.

I currently have Atom v3's and a cc-170 v3 from the old performance series. I want to get atom monitors and the cc-190. I went to the dealer and he said it wouldn't be worthy unless I went to the mini monitors or titan monitors. I think he was just trying to get me to spend more. I don't see how they wouldn't be worth it if they have better mids and tweeters, even if they are still small drivers. Thanks for your input!
As far as cc-170 v3 or cc-190 goes, I think the 190 is much better. I had a 170 v3 paired with Monitor 5 v.3 fronts and recently upgraded to the 190. :cool:

i would think paradigm should consider the negative feedback they are receiving over $20 in parts. parts that should have been received to begin with for an expensive speaker purchase. they may have lost current and future customers over a few brackets. was this worth it? how will they work with a customer when there is a large problem? jmo.

I'm pretty sure he bought these speakers used.

If anyone is looking for a pair of Signature ADP (v1) I have a piano black pair I am looking to sell. See the AVS Classified Ad (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=4552) for more details.

Thanks.

As a dealer though, I wouldn't want people to walk into my store demo the product, and then buy it online.

I completely get this. I used to own a retail store, and had customers that did just that. Paradigm's policies have created a situation where my only dealer has no competition within 100 miles or so, and therefore apparently has no motivation to get or keep me as a customer.

I guess Paradigm counts on the fact that if you want Paradigm, you'll buy Paradigm (nothing else will do). And that is indeed my situation. But I will likely buy used instead of giving in to this. I can't be alone in this...

If anyone is looking for a pair of Signature ADP (v1) I have a piano black pair I am looking to sell. See the AVS Classified Ad (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=4552) for more details.

Thanks.


Hey Eric, I saw your AD, what other speakers were you running as far as the Signature series.....?

BTW, thanks for starting and keeping after the Pre/Pro thread, I have been frustrated with the choices that were available for a reasonable dollar amount, I have been using a Pioneer receiver as a Pre/Pro for over a year and 1/2, in the hopes that my choices would be better by now... really appreciate you staying on it....

I have Sig 8 v1 mains, C5 center, C1 rear (yep, 6.1) and Sig Servo 15. I am planning on getting a regular Servo 15 as well for a second subwoofer.

The only reason I am selling the ADPs is because the bipole/dipole nature of the speakers does not work in my room's acoustic design... I changed to direct radiating for the two rows of surrounds and for space reasons could not use S1s - they were too deep for the room width.

Thanks for the kind words on the thread, I am glad it has been useful. Using a receiver with preouts is a completely fine idea. I have come sooo close to doing that myself just to get lossless. I just keep thinking "any day now"... Of course "any day now" keeps me looking and updating the thread, so I guess its not all bad.

I think we will see lots more this summer and at CEIDA.

There are quite a few speaker companies that are strictly b&m such as
B&W,Revel,Totem,Focal/JM LAB and Vandersteen and i think the reason
besides not letting the brand become discounted would be proper setup
for auditions.

I say kudos to Paradigm for supporting the B&M business model. They allow people to make a living, educate the customer (in most cases hopefully), and as quoted above, allows Paradigm to be heard with quality electronics and usually in a proper setting. Plus it keeps Paradigms products respectful and protects them from fraudulent activites.
Look at the Bose business model. It is never on sale, never discounted, and most of the GP thinks they're the best and buys the crap out of it. Talk about overpriced!
It's kind of like wanting a BMW at Hyundai prices.

Used is an option or finding a willing dealer is as well.

I'm sure in their mind they value for the dollar is enough that the speakers should sell themselves and not internet pricing or dealers giving them away. You do get a great speaker for the price, so it's up to you to decide if they are worth it in your mind.

Agreed and they have been successful where other companies haven't. I can't even count all the big/small electronics/speaker companies that while making and excellent product, still go bottoms up. Obviously Paradigm is doing something right. They still receive numerous awards and almost every review you read starts or ends with the value you do get with Paradigm.

I have Sig 8 v1 mains, C5 center, C1 rear (yep, 6.1) and Sig Servo 15. I am planning on getting a regular Servo 15 as well for a second subwoofer.

The only reason I am selling the ADPs is because the bipole/dipole nature of the speakers does not work in my room's acoustic design... I changed to direct radiating for the two rows of surrounds and for space reasons could not use S1s - they were too deep for the room width.

Thanks for the kind words on the thread, I am glad it has been useful. Using a receiver with preouts is a completely fine idea. I have come sooo close to doing that myself just to get lossless. I just keep thinking "any day now"... Of course "any day now" keeps me looking and updating the thread, so I guess its not all bad.

I think we will see lots more this summer and at CEIDA.

I agree its so frustrating, the only descent full fledged unit out there being the Onkyo Pro/Integra 9.8, I can't wait until more products come to light...

Curious how you are liking the S1 blending the .v2 with your .v1's, its got the different tweeter, but I would imagine that they blend pretty well... Its nice that they are coming out with more products that one can fit into different room types and are still able to accommodate direct firing without having a full size S2 hanging off the wall in a smaller room...

My room is narrow with my S4's and C3, I chose to go the Studio ADP-590 route in that room, and for the limited amount that rears produce, they work fabulously for me, while not sticking out like a soar thumb. With the F112 as my bottom feeder, it sounds incredible. :)

As far as cc-170 v3 or cc-190 goes, I think the 190 is much better. I had a 170 v3 paired with Monitor 5 v.3 fronts and recently upgraded to the 190. :cool:

Thanks, this is the kind of comparison I wanted to hear!

I want to add my experience about the 'Paradigm Business model' since there have been so many frustrated comments about trying to 'deal' with Paradigm dealers:

I was 2 days away from placing an order for the following; a pair of S6s; a C5, and 4 of the ADP surrounds. The discount I was offered on over $15K worth of speakers was pathetically small. This from a dealer that didn't even have the Sigs in the store, and wouldn't get any for me to listen to either. I was treated incredibly rudely when I politely asked for an additional discount, and fed the standard line about "Paradigm refuses to allow us to sell these for less". Regardless, I was about to give my dealer the 100% 'deposit' they required, when two things happened: I read a few comments about poor customer service on this thread, and I happened to read two fantastic reviews in 'Audiophile' and 'Stereophile' on the new PSB Synchrony line of speakers. When I talked to my usual, i.e. non-Paradigm dealer, about the PSBs, the whole set of seven speakers, (the top of the line Synchronys), came to an MSRP only about 60% of the Sigs I was looking at, and with the large discount I was immediately offered, I paid about 40% of my cost for the Paradigms I was considering. The Synchronys in Black Ash have superb build quality, and sound incredible, and I don't regret my decision for one minute.

My point: there are other great speakers out there, and some might say that the PSB Synchronys are at least as good as, if not better than the Sigs. When you throw in the fact that I was treated with respect, and received a great deal, with delivery in 7 days, I am glad my money went to PSB.

Bish

When I talked to my usual, i.e. non-Paradigm dealer

My point: there are other great speakers out there,

Bish


Just my .02 but you should have given your "ususal" dealer your business in the first place. As you said there are other great speakers out there. If my "usual" dealer didn't sell Paradigms I wouldn't own the ones I have.

My impression is that dealer cost is typically 50% of msrp for speakers. Do people think that's correct?

Bish,

You should bring your PSB receipt back to the paradigm guy and show him that he lost a big sale because of the way he treated you. Not only would it be extremely satisfying, in a Pretty Woman kinda way, but then maybe the next guy will get better treatment.

Coming to the defense of some dealers if you ever seen their overhead rent,electric,
phone,insurance and employee cost it is a love of the profession and not a get rich
industry.Its nice to have a place to demo the different brands and ask questions but
most that are worth their weight will give a discount for repeated business and sizable
purchase.Having worked in the industry the higher end products usually have some
markup thats business just not as much as people think.

My impression is that dealer cost is typically 50% of msrp for speakers. Do people think that's correct?

search back through ginovino's posts, he is/was a paradigm dealer, and was quite forward about the fact that dealers pay 60% or something like that.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/search.php?searchid=9957034

That leaves 40% profit for the dealer to make off this product...

Studio 100's at $2500 - 40% = 1500 their cost.

I don't pay List Price on anything.... PERIOD !!


Also, check out this link... dealer that can get products for you, I got my ADP-590's from him, great guy to work with...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13206211#post13206211

Thats why I surf the used market, and there are plenty of deals out there to be had... there is more then 1 way to skin a cat...

Warranty... hmmm The guy who just came to my house to buy my SVS PB12-Plus bought some used Studio 100's .v3 and 1 of the tweeters went out, he went to the same dealer I use and had it replaced for $60.00.

Drivers are easily to replace...

That leaves 40% profit for the dealer to make off this product...

Studio 100's at $2500 - 40% = 1500 their cost.

I don't pay List Price on anything.... PERIOD !!



You must not have done to well in any business classes that you took. :)

$1500 -$300 taxes -$300 rent -$100 insurance -$100 health insurance -$250 payroll etc.

As oztech said running an AV store is not a cash cow, more a labor of love. We all work for someone or are self employed. I don't think anyone here is asking our employer to cut our salaries so we can give a customer a bigger discount. :) (and yes I know having a customer paying less is better than not having a customer at all so let's not go down that rabbit hole).

search back through ginovino's posts, he is/was a paradigm dealer, and was quite forward about the fact that dealers pay 60% or something like that.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/search.php?searchid=9957034

That leaves 40% profit for the dealer to make off this product...


Thanks, Warp. I'm pretty sure that on Revel it is 50%, because I heard of someone getting 40% off on a good-sized purchase. So knowing how much negotiating room there might be slightly tilts the balance toward Revel, though obviously there are other considerations as well.

You must not have done to well in any business classes that you took. :)

$1500 -$300 taxes -$300 rent -$100 insurance -$100 health insurance -$250 payroll etc.

As oztech said running an AV store is not a cash cow, more a labor of love. We all work for someone or are self employed. I don't think anyone here is asking our employer to cut our salaries so we can give a customer a bigger discount. :) (and yes I know having a customer paying less is better than not having a customer at all so let's not go down that rabbit hole).

That's all fine. Dealers have the right to make money, and certainly as an industry they don't make that much money. But customers have the right to shop around for a bargain, if they want to take the trouble. My approach is, if I've demoed gear somewhere, be it a car, a loudspeaker, or whatever, I'll be willing to pay that dealer more than other dealers, enough in my judgement to compensate for his time and effort. But I'll still shop around.

You must not have done to well in any business classes that you took. :)

$1500 -$300 taxes -$300 rent -$100 insurance -$100 health insurance -$250 payroll etc.

As oztech said running an AV store is not a cash cow, more a labor of love. We all work for someone or are self employed. I don't think anyone here is asking our employer to cut our salaries so we can give a customer a bigger discount. :) (and yes I know having a customer paying less is better than not having a customer at all so let's not go down that rabbit hole).

Don't get me wrong, I own my own business, and I know what all these things cost. My property taxes are almost $50K a year, not to mention insurance and all the rest of the cr@p I have to deal with.

But honestly I have always felt that you can attract more bee's with honey then vinegar, if you know what I'm sayin...

Word gets around fast, if someone feels like they got ripped off, they will never come back.... Repeat customers are very important, and word of mouth is the best advertisement, and also your worst enemy.

Paying list price will never get you repeat customers, and the word of mouth of that kind of treatment will hurt more then help. I give stuff away everyday, and have a reputation for being more then fair, friendly and passionate about my relationships with my customers, and I have more customers then I can shake a stick at, because people talk.... I have never spent $$ on advertising - PERIOD. I don't even have a yellow page ad.

Thats my take on business practices, it seems to be working....

Greed will never help your bottom line - EVER.

Don't get me wrong, I own my own business, and I know what all these things cost. My property taxes are almost $50K a year, not to mention insurance and all the rest of the cr@p I have to deal with.

I tip my hat to you.

If you go back to thebishman's post it illustrates the challenges you and all other business owners face.

In his post he mentions his "usual" dealer. I'm going to assume that this means he has done business with this dealer before and he was treated fairly.

In spite of that, he was willing to spend $15K at another dealer that he had no relationship with at all. I'll call it luck, that he was treated poorly by this dealer which drove him back to his "usual" dealer who treated him well and gave him a great discount due to the prior relationship and all were happy.

If he was treated decently by the Pdigm dealer his "usual" dealer wouldn't have seen a dime of the $15K that was spent in spite of the relationship he had. So what would have been the point of developing the relationship with him as a customer at all? I can understand why some dealers don't bother giving first time customers a good discount if repeat customers won't even give them a shot at a $15K sale.

As I said before, if my "usual" dealer didn't carry Pdigms I wouldn't own my system. I would have purchased B&W, Thiels, or Klipsch. I understand if your looking to by a Lexus and all your "usual" dealer sells are Yugos but in the world of speakers...

The one thing that hurts here in houston we went from a lot of dealers in audio/video
to just a handful in a matter of 20 years so the dealers that stuck it out are taking
up the slack but with the economy being what it is i wonder which shops will close next.

The one thing that hurts here in houston we went from a lot of dealers in audio/video
to just a handful in a matter of 20 years so the dealers that stuck it out are taking
up the slack but with the economy being what it is i wonder which shops will close next.

Same in San Diego. One Paradigm dealer closed, so now we are just down to one. The next closest ones are in Orange County and LA. I'm bummed our one dealer sucks so much.

The closest dealer to me charges full list. I have bought about $4,000.00 in stuff from them. I've had to send them 2 of my friends and they got maybe 5%. I bought my Anthem pre/pro from them, and when I went to them for the upgrade I got the run around for 3 weeks. This was after I had talked directly with Paradigm about it as well.
I had to go 3 hours away to Seattle where a dealer did the upgrade for me and didn't charge me the labor. The shop where I bought it from has been in business for 30 years. They have a great gear, almost everything in stock, and are complete condescending A-holes and still do good business. Go figure.

Since then, I've found another dealer an hour away and they were so cool. They let me listen to speakers for hours if I want. At first I got about 5% off a center channel I bought, but they were so nice and laid back I kept going back. Since then I have done and brought in close to $100,000.00 worth of business to them. I bring them Starbucks when I come down. If I bring a customer in, I'll run across the street and get us all a pop. I treat them like they're my friends and a person. Now add >20% to the first discount they gave me.

Every company on earth has someone who'll never do business with them again. From cars to cell phones, to computers, to clothes. You just gotta get lucky and find the right one. They're out there.

gotta quick question. just hooked all my new system up. studio 60v.4 and cc-590 center to a yamaha rx-v1800 receiver. waiting patiently on getting an amp. my receiver goes from -80 to 16 with volume level, and i am wondering how high i could safely turn it up without damaging speakers? it is rated at 130x7, but i know receivers are all rated much higher than they really output. seems like they aren't as loud as i thought they would be, so i am just wondering. and when i get an amp, if it is 200 wpc is there gonna be any benefit to bi-amping? the speakers are only rated to 150wpc.

Every company on earth has someone who'll never do business with them again. From cars to cell phones, to computers, to clothes. You just gotta get lucky and find the right one. They're out there.

Very true! With some due diligence and patience I got my mint condition speakers at about 50% off MSRP through various internet sources. The C3 was literally factory sealed, and the rest were barely used and the latest versions.

There were a couple of good internet sources that were about 20% off MSRP, including shipping and no tax. They are currently out of stock, but I would think in a few months they will get a new source. So if you don't have a near by dealer or they really suck, you do have choices. Maybe no factory warranty but as Warpdrv said, drivers are pretty cheap to replace should you blow one. I know the $4K I saved was so worth it!

You must not have done to well in any business classes that you took. :)

$1500 -$300 taxes -$300 rent -$100 insurance -$100 health insurance -$250 payroll etc.

As oztech said running an AV store is not a cash cow, more a labor of love. We all work for someone or are self employed. I don't think anyone here is asking our employer to cut our salaries so we can give a customer a bigger discount. :) (and yes I know having a customer paying less is better than not having a customer at all so let's not go down that rabbit hole).

LOL, guess you didn't do very well either... :p

The $1500 in the example was the dealer's cost, not the net profit...

Plus, if you are paying $300 of your taxes, $300 of your rent, $100 of your insurance, $100 of your health insurance, $250 of your payroll - off of a pair of speakers - it's time to close your doors!

And yes, Marketing 101 - would you rather make a little less money or NO money...?

:D

LOL, guess you didn't do very well either... :p

The $1500 in the example was the dealer's cost, not the net profit...

Plus, if you are paying $300 of your taxes, $300 of your rent, $100 of your insurance, $100 of your health insurance, $250 of your payroll - off of a pair of speakers - it's time to close your doors!

And yes, Marketing 101 - would you rather make a little less money or NO money...?

:D

:)

I guess I should have used + signs. I was trying to show in addition to the cost of the speakers dealers had those other bills as well. And yes, if they had to pay all of that out of the sale of 1 pair of speakers they stay in business about a day.

Not selling a product to a customer at all can be better than selling it to a customer at a loss. You're just gambling on the next customer that comes along is going to buy it. Marketing 201. :D

gotta quick question. just hooked all my new system up. studio 60v.4 and cc-590 center to a yamaha rx-v1800 receiver. waiting patiently on getting an amp. my receiver goes from -80 to 16 with volume level, and i am wondering how high i could safely turn it up without damaging speakers? it is rated at 130x7, but i know receivers are all rated much higher than they really output. seems like they aren't as loud as i thought they would be, so i am just wondering. and when i get an amp, if it is 200 wpc is there gonna be any benefit to bi-amping? the speakers are only rated to 150wpc.

i know there are some knowledgeable people on here that can help my newbie self out

:)Not selling a product to a customer at all can be better than selling it to a customer at a loss.

Another way to look at the price-sensitive customer is as an incremental customer. Even if you make only $250 in gross profit (selling stuff for $1750 that cost you $1500) from him (rather than $0, if he walks away), you are $250 closer to covering your insurance, rent, etc., etc. And he could refer other customers, rather than tell his buddies "That shop wants full list price on everything, there are better values elsewhere, like the shop that sells Revel, or the shop that sells PSB, or authorized web sources like one_call, which sells NHT, KEF, and others."

:)You're just gambling on the next customer that comes along is going to buy it. Marketing 201. :D

These things aren't limited edition units. Just get another pair from the distributor for that next customer, who might pay msrp.

:)

Not selling a product to a customer at all can be better than selling it to a customer at a loss. You're just gambling on the next customer that comes along is going to buy it. Marketing 201. :D



Correct, but they aren't taking a loss, just less profit...

So giving a 10 or even 15% discount on a pair of Studio 100's, the dealer still makes + or - $700.00 for pushing paperwork, and thats a loss?

He set up his store, and thats all done, all he has to do is stock product, basically meet & greet..... wow thats a real labor intensive scenario. :rolleyes:

Every business has its investment of overhead..... thats just the nature of the game.... Here, try this one on for size.... My gas station I can hold 25000 gallons of gas in the tanks in the ground, I have to keep them full, thats out of my pocket. I get deliveries every other day, 8700 gallons, at the price of gas today - do the math. 3-4 tankers a week, figure a little over $100.000 every week, wanna talk about investment/overhead. I have to have that kind of money fluid every week.

i know there are some knowledgeable people on here that can help my newbie self out

Just a note of thanks to WARPDRV recognizing my limited efforts in helping members understand the Paradigm wholesale pricing structure.

Try as I might to educate interested members, some became greedy and tried to get their local dealers to sell at full 40% discount! Then they PM'd me saying they couldn't cut deals! Imagine!!!!

We are officially closed, though kept our Paradigm franchising agreement intact for potential restructuring of our business model.

As for Xjaguar23 question about amplifier power..

Forget what the position the volume knob is on your receiver and the digital readout on the faceplate. Those are for reference only.

Think of the volume control as a water faucet which comes in different diameters. If the connecting pipe is 2" wide, then the water flow will be virtually full rate almost immediately upon turning it on. When you reduce the diameter of the input pipe to , let's say 1/2... the flow will be reduced and only until you open the faucet fully will you get a full flow rate.

Get the picture?

Thus volume control "pots" are variable...little flow at the lower volumes and greater flow near the full rotation of the control. some receivers allow you to adjust the controls sensitivity by .5-1.0db in the sub menu's. thus allowing you to increase or decrease how fast the volume control reacts to your settings.

As for power, most of the more popular and better HTR... Put out a REAL 110-150wpc @8ohms RMS with one channel driven. However drop down to something like 80-110wpc @ 5 channels driven. This is a function of the power supply and output caps and transformer.

You must understand , it is very unlikely that your source material will be putting out a signal of equal level on each channel at the same time. Unless of course you feed them a test signal to each channel at the same time.

The science of sound states that for an audible, however subtle perception of loudness difference requires a 3db increase in sound level. This computes to be a 10x increase in amplifier power.

Let me explain this another way... if you are listening to sound at constant 3 watts amp output (putting aside the speakers efficiency for the time being), for you to hear a perceptable loudness increase the amp must now put out 30watts output (10x more), again if you want to hear louder than that, your amp must them put out 10x more or 300 watts!

There isn't a HTR in marketplace capable of providing that!

If you use separate power amps instead, then it is entirely possible to achieve that level of output ( ie. Bryston 7b-sst, 14b-, 28b-sst etc).

Now we get into the issue of speaker efficiency. It should now be clear why you must check the speakers rated efficiency specs when you see something like "90db @1watt 1 mtr in an anechoic room". Be careful to identify "DIN" (Europe) versus USA standard.

when upgrading speakers you may swap out an efficient speaker to a newer, better sounding, lesser sensitive speaker without realizing it!

I think that may have happened in your case.

Or your former speaker was more sensitive at higher frequencies, thereby "beaming" causing a false sense of loudness. Thus the next stat to be aware of is the flatness of the frequency response, ie +/- X db (20hz-20khz) etc.

Adding or biamping the speakers will only cause a mismatch in amplifying levels, time and phase domains. Plus the cost of more cabling!

I hope you benefit from this explanation.;)

We are officially closed, though kept our Paradigm franchising agreement intact for potential restructuring of our business model.

Meaning, you might go into the custom install business, or something like that?

I will keep you in mind if I decide to go with Paradigm for some/all of my needs.

Great post Ginovino. That was well written...

Gino, nice to have you back.... Your knowledge of the Audio world is a great asset to the site.... I hope you will continue to frequent the forums. Sharing your understanding to how Paradigms business structure is laid out has been very helpful for us forum members/consumers. I wish you well in your business restructure, in this ever changing world one has to keep up and ahead of the game.

I think every dealer is completely entitled to make money, but gouging will be detrimental to the both the buyer and seller.
Can't give the store away, but a small discount will go a long way, and should promote future discounts through that relationship.

Same in San Diego. One Paradigm dealer closed, so now we are just down to one. The next closest ones are in Orange County and LA. I'm bummed our one dealer sucks so much.I certainly had a different experience with the SD Paradigm dealer than you. I got a very good demo in a well set up room, a reasonable discount without asking for one, and ended up getting some Paradigms when I had expected to buy elsewhere.

Does anyone have the dimensions (not specs) of both the Monitor 7's and 9's v.3 and v.4?

I can find the v.5, but I'm having trouble locating this info for the v.3 and v.4's.

Thanks!

I certainly had a different experience with the SD Paradigm dealer than you. I got a very good demo in a well set up room, a reasonable discount without asking for one, and ended up getting some Paradigms when I had expected to buy elsewhere.

I am glad my dealer here in houston ALL STAR is great and treated me good
i send everyone to him that is interested in his product line.

"90db @1watt 1 mtr in an anechoic room". Be careful to identify "DIN" (Europe) versus USA standard.

Welcome back Gino! We really appreciate interesting explainations like you tend to give.

Could someone summarize what the DIN vs the USA standard that Ginovino referenced means? It may be old hat to some of you, but some of us are still new at this and want to know more.

Can someone point me in the direction of an on-line dealer for the Statement and Signature lines?

:D

Welcome back Gino! We really appreciate interesting explainations like you tend to give.

Could someone summarize what the DIN vs the USA standard that Ginovino referenced means? It may be old hat to some of you, but some of us are still new at this and want to know more.

I second the above mentioned request please!, Also when Paradigm list the effeciency of thier speakers they list two numbers anechoic and room. Whats the difference, and which is more relevant for the home user when making amp/receiver purchase decisions?

Well, I'm even more convinced Paradigm corporate is inept. Today my dealer tried calling them to get a tracking number for my SECOND shipment of brackets. The first time he called Paradigm today they said the ONE person who can look up the information is not around.

So he calls back later, and someone gives him what they claim is a Fedex tracking number. It's only 12 digits, and FedEx uses 15 digits. The dealer does not have internet access in their store (says the owner is a control freak and won't allow it), so he passes along the number to me without checking it for validity. Recall, Paradigm had given us two bogus tracking number for the first shipment on Monday. :mad:

Through all of this my dealer was sounding quite irritated with going through this exercise and basically told me I shouldn't worry about the tracking numbers because by the time Paradigm would give him the number the package would already have arrived.

Right now I'm so fed up with the dealer that I didn't call him back to tell him the 12 digit number is bogus. If it doesn't come in on Friday like he said it will, I'll raise hell with them and Paradigm.

Both the dealer and Paradigm seem pretty uncaring and incompetent in this matter. Only Onkyo has topped them in poor customer service, in my experience.

Does anyone have the dimensions (not specs) of both the Monitor 7's and 9's v.3 and v.4?

I can find the v.5, but I'm having trouble locating this info for the v.3 and v.4's.

Thanks!


Paradigm Monitor Series V.4
Monitor 7 = 40x7-5/8x15-3/8 in. (H,W,D)
Monitor 9 = 43-1/8x9-3/16x15-3/4 in. (H,W,D)

I currently have the Studio cc590. I am looking to upgrade to the cc690. How much space do you need around the center's? Right now my cc590 is sitting in my 60xbr TV stand in the middle/below the TV.
my unit space below is 9 3/4 H X 39 W X 17 1/2 D , and I know the cc690 is 9-1/2x36x15-1/2
The cc590 just fits in Height wise , I know the cc690 will fit thats not the issue, would this tightness pose a problem, as in the rear ports or the center not sounding up to par as it would if it was in an open space? My studio60's have plenty of room from the side and rear walls.

Forget what the position the volume knob is on your receiver and the digital readout on the faceplate. Those are for reference only..

Well, it can be calibrated to a known reference for DD/DTS sources...that is the whole point of setting up speakers levels to 75 or 85 dB at "0" on the master volume. But yes, the poster above needs to stop worrying about it and just enjoy his new speakers. I personally wouldn't bother with an outboard amp with Studio 60s, they present a very easy load for an amplifier (unlike the Studio 100s with their difficult load).


The science of sound states that for an audible, however subtle perception of loudness difference requires a 3db increase in sound level. This computes to be a 10x increase in amplifier power.

Let me explain this another way... if you are listening to sound at constant 3 watts amp output (putting aside the speakers efficiency for the time being), for you to hear a perceptable loudness increase the amp must now put out 30watts output (10x more), again if you want to hear louder than that, your amp must them put out 10x more or 300 watts!..

Not quite. With midrange frequencies, a subjective doubling of loudness requires a 10 dB increase. THAT requires 10x the power. A 3dB increase would only require 2x the power.


Now we get into the issue of speaker efficiency. It should now be clear why you must check the speakers rated efficiency specs when you see something like "90db @1watt 1 mtr in an anechoic room". Be careful to identify "DIN" (Europe) versus USA standard.

I have never seen DIN used in an efficiency spec. I have seen several manfs follow Paradigm's convention of listing both anechoic and "typical" room sensitivities.


Adding or biamping the speakers will only cause a mismatch in amplifying levels, time and phase domains. Plus the cost of more cabling!


Overgeneralizing things there a bit aren't we? It's possible if using amps with poor quality control that the gain could vary enough between different samples/channels to actually produce an audible effect I suppose, but not that likely. And please explain how biamping is going to "cause a mismatch" in time and phase domains....

. I personally wouldn't bother with an outboard amp with Studio 60s, they present a very easy load for an amplifier (unlike the Studio 100s with their difficult load).


How would you characterize the C3/S4/ADP-3 v2 loads? I haven't seen any impedance graphs of these speakers to know if they are easy or hard to drive properly at reference levels.

I have a question about Paradigms. I am choosing between a pair of new Monitor 11(most recent version) for 1500, bought new in hifi store OR a pair of Studio 100 v.1, like 10 years old, bought from private individual, price 1000. Questions:
1. Is it the case that the significantly older Studio 100 still beats the new Monitor 11. I know that drivers get improved, etc but dont understand how much that matters.
2. I never bought a pair of used speakers before. Would it be relatively obvious to me if they were damaged in any way (I would of course listen carefully on different CDs before I buy). Anything that is suspicious when it comes to used speakers?
3. I have an HK640, which is a 10 year old Harman amplifier that I really like. I will put the speakers in a room about 12X15 feet. I like to play loud. Would the above speakers be "too powerful" for a room of this size?
Appreciate help! /ola

I have a question about Paradigms. I am choosing between a pair of new Monitor 11(most recent version) for 1500, bought new in hifi store OR a pair of Studio 100 v.1, like 10 years old, bought from private individual, price 1000. Questions:
1. Is it the case that the significantly older Studio 100 still beats the new Monitor 11. I know that drivers get improved, etc but dont understand how much that matters.
2. I never bought a pair of used speakers before. Would it be relatively obvious to me if they were damaged in any way (I would of course listen carefully on different CDs before I buy). Anything that is suspicious when it comes to used speakers?
3. I have an HK640, which is a 10 year old Harman amplifier that I really like. I will put the speakers in a room about 12X15 feet. I like to play loud. Would the above speakers be "too powerful" for a room of this size?
Appreciate help! /ola

I can't comment on the Studio 100 v.1, as I am only familiar with v.3 & 4, but I also own a pair of Monitor 11 v.5, and they are a great speaker. However, the MSRP for the 11's v.5 is 1,199, if I'm not mistaken, and many dealers will offer a discount on that, so I don't know why your dealer is charging you 1,500. I would not pay 1,500 for 11's v.5

Again as to how they compare to Studios v.1 I'll leave to others to comment on, but have your dealer take another look at that price for the 11's.

Well, I'm even more convinced Paradigm corporate is inept. Today my dealer tried calling them to get a tracking number for my SECOND shipment of brackets. The first time he called Paradigm today they said the ONE person who can look up the information is not around.

So he calls back later, and someone gives him what they claim is a Fedex tracking number. It's only 12 digits, and FedEx uses 15 digits. The dealer does not have internet access in their store (says the owner is a control freak and won't allow it), so he passes along the number to me without checking it for validity. Recall, Paradigm had given us two bogus tracking number for the first shipment on Monday. :mad:

Through all of this my dealer was sounding quite irritated with going through this exercise and basically told me I shouldn't worry about the tracking numbers because by the time Paradigm would give him the number the package would already have arrived.

Right now I'm so fed up with the dealer that I didn't call him back to tell him the 12 digit number is bogus. If it doesn't come in on Friday like he said it will, I'll raise hell with them and Paradigm.

Both the dealer and Paradigm seem pretty uncaring and incompetent in this matter. Only Onkyo has topped them in poor customer service, in my experience.

You're dealer could be pulling a fast one on you. It's not uncommon that they will blame the next guy up (manufacture, etc.) for something that you can't verify yourself.

Bottom line is that you are the dealers customer, not Paradigms customer. Regardless of who's fault it is, your dealer is the one to blame, period. Yet he knows he's the only Paradigm dealer around now, and he knows you have no choice.

He could be pulling a fast one with the blame game...

You're dealer could be pulling a fast one on you. It's not uncommon that they will blame the next guy up (manufacture, etc.) for something that you can't verify yourself.

Bottom line is that you are the dealers customer, not Paradigms customer. Regardless of who's fault it is, your dealer is the one to blame, period. Yet he knows he's the only Paradigm dealer around now, and he knows you have no choice.

He could be pulling a fast one with the blame game...

I actually called Paradigm corp on Monday, and I spoke Gary Takeda about the matter. He was as unhelpful and unsympathetic as my dealer. He was the one that claimed FedEx lost it, even though FedEx had no record of even picking up the package let alone it getting lost somewhere. Paradigm corp was giving me and the dealer bogus tracking information.

While I agree the dealer is ultimately responsible and my interface to Paradigm, my direct dealings with corporate were equally as bad if not worse.

Gino – I can appreciate your interest in helping others understand the principles that apply to to audio, but you need to brush up on your knowledge. Much of what you wrote is either incorrect or used in the wrong context.


The science of sound states that for an audible, however subtle perception of loudness difference requires a 3db increase in sound level. This computes to be a 10x increase in amplifier power.

Let me explain this another way... if you are listening to sound at constant 3 watts amp output (putting aside the speakers efficiency for the time being), for you to hear a perceptable loudness increase the amp must now put out 30watts output (10x more), again if you want to hear louder than that, your amp must them put out 10x more or 300 watts!

A 10dB increase in level (or a DOUBLING in volume) requires a 10x increase in power. A 3dB increase in volume only requires a 2x increase in power.


There isn't a HTR in marketplace capable of providing that!

Sure, very few if any AVR’s are capable of 300 watts, but most people will never use that much power. See my next response.



Now we get into the issue of speaker efficiency. It should now be clear why you must check the speakers rated efficiency specs when you see something like "90db @1watt 1 mtr in an anechoic room". Be careful to identify "DIN" (Europe) versus USA standard.

First, DIN refers to the in-room bass extension vs. anechoic, and has nothing to do with speaker sensitivity. On the subject of speaker sensitivity and amp power, lets look at how loud we can play a set of stereo speakers with 90dB sensitivity (like many Paradigms) with 100 watts of AVR power. With 100 watts you have roughly 20dB of gain. But we also need to take into account the number of speaker and distance from those speakers. First, you gain 3dB by running in stereo but you lose 6dB with every doubling of distance from the speakers. Since you gain 3dB in stereo, the combined sensitivity of two speakers is 93dB. If you sit 12 feet away from your speakers you lose 12dB. 93dB – 12dB = 81dB. 81dB is now our starting point for the 12 foot listening position. Add 20dB to that (100 watts of amp power) and you have a total of 101 dB. In reality, most people don’t exceed 90 to 95dB when watching movies, and this is considered to be fairly loud. Music is typically listened to at around 85dB, unless you are really rockin’ out, in which case you might hit 95dB again. So really, for most practical applications, 100 watts will be more than sufficient to drive a speaker with good sensitivity. Now of course if you sit further away or have less sensitive speakers, your requirement for power will go up, but for most Paradigm speakers, the above applies.



Or your former speaker was more sensitive at higher frequencies, thereby "beaming" causing a false sense of loudness. Thus the next stat to be aware of is the flatness of the frequency response, ie +/- X db (20hz-20khz) etc.

Beaming is a dispersion issue and has nothing to do with speaker sensitivity or frequency response. Beaming can contribute to the speaker’s frequency response, but it is only one factor of many.


Adding or biamping the speakers will only cause a mismatch in amplifying levels, time and phase domains. Plus the cost of more cabling!


While the benefits of biamping are debatable, if you use a pair of identical stereo amps to biamp there is no reason why there would be a mismatch in levels or phase.

amp power, efficiency, and db....

the following is a useful calculator:

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Keep in mind that while listening levels may AVERAGE 85-95dB, realism requires the capability of reaching short-term peaks much higher than that.

I can't comment on the Studio 100 v.1, as I am only familiar with v.3 & 4, but I also own a pair of Monitor 11 v.5, and they are a great speaker. However, the MSRP for the 11's v.5 is 1,199, if I'm not mistaken, and many dealers will offer a discount on that, so I don't know why your dealer is charging you 1,500. I would not pay 1,500 for 11's v.5

Again as to how they compare to Studios v.1 I'll leave to others to comment on, but have your dealer take another look at that price for the 11's.

Interesting. Someone told me that prices on Paradigm (in the US) has risen due to weak dollar. Does anyone know market price on a Monitor 11 v.5. Also, follow-up to nelson57: could you comment on your experiences on the difference between v100 v5 and your 100 v3 and v4. Also, I have read that Monitor 11s at some point suffered from cheap design on speakerboxes - is this still a problem. Thanks.

Monitor 11 v.5 are $1400 a pair.

Interesting. Someone told me that prices on Paradigm (in the US) has risen due to weak dollar.

I wouldn't be surprised.... a LA Paradigm dealer said the MSRP recently was jacked up by Paradigm. He didn't say by how much though.

Interesting. Someone told me that prices on Paradigm (in the US) has risen due to weak dollar. Does anyone know market price on a Monitor 11 v.5. Also, follow-up to nelson57: could you comment on your experiences on the difference between v100 v5 and your 100 v3 and v4. Also, I have read that Monitor 11s at some point suffered from cheap design on speakerboxes - is this still a problem. Thanks.

I stand corrected on the pricing, 1,199 was the price when I purchased mine, my things have changed. Ibengbso, my direct comparison is between the Monitor 11v.5 and the Studio 100 v.3.

My dealer had a pair of Studio 100 v.3 that he would give to me for 1099, so I listened to both the v.3 and v.4 in the store. They were both great and the difference in sound was so subtle it was not worth the difference in price. I would have paid twice as much for the v.4so I took the v.3 100's with the CC690 v.4 center channel.

I already had a Monitor series setup: 11's v.5 L/R and the CC390 v.5 center. Those were replaced with the Studio 100 v.3 L/R and CC690 v.4 center. The surrounds are still the ADP 370 v.4 from the Monitor series.

While I found the Monitors to be fine speakers, and would not consider them cheaply built at all, the Studios provided a smoother, cleaner sound. The balance between highs, mids, and lows were more refined and polished on the Studios. I have developed an appreciation for 2 channel music that I never had before listening to music with the Studios.

The Monitor v.5 series are designed for effeciency and playing loud, and they can be easily driven by mid-range AVR's, while the Studios can also be driven with a good quality AVR, they really shine with separate amplication.

I consider the Studio speakers I have now to be the best I've ever owned to date, and the only changes I'll be making is replacing the ADP 370's, with Studio ADP 470's surrounds. I've had no experience with any studio speakers prior to version 3, so I cannot comment of those. Hope this made sense, and I don't believe you'll be disappointed with Paradigm whichever way you decide.

Hi,

I currently have the Studio cc590. I am looking to upgrade to the cc690. How much space do you need around the center's? Right now my cc590 is sitting in my 60xbr TV stand in the middle/below the TV.
my unit space below is 9 3/4 H X 39 W X 17 1/2 D , and I know the cc690 is 9-1/2x36x15-1/2
The cc590 just fits in Height wise , I know the cc690 will fit thats not the issue, would this tightness pose a problem, as in the rear ports or the center not sounding up to par as it would if it was in an open space? My studio60's have plenty of room from the side and rear walls.

Hi,

I currently have the Studio cc590. I am looking to upgrade to the cc690. How much space do you need around the center's? Right now my cc590 is sitting in my 60xbr TV stand in the middle/below the TV.
my unit space below is 9 3/4 H X 39 W X 17 1/2 D , and I know the cc690 is 9-1/2x36x15-1/2
The cc590 just fits in Height wise , I know the cc690 will fit thats not the issue, would this tightness pose a problem, as in the rear ports or the center not sounding up to par as it would if it was in an open space? My studio60's have plenty of room from the side and rear walls.

I personally would stuff that ported center into a closed box... can you open up the back of it? every thing you do to that cabinet will be hidden after you put the center into it... If you can modify it to open the back, I see no problem whatsoever, infact that cabinet in my eyes is made for the CC-690 !!!

The drawbacks if you don't mod, It might become very boomy and not sound right... It was designed to have plenty of breathing room...

I tip my hat to you.

If you go back to thebishman's post it illustrates the challenges you and all other business owners face.

In his post he mentions his "usual" dealer. I'm going to assume that this means he has done business with this dealer before and he was treated fairly.

In spite of that, he was willing to spend $15K at another dealer that he had no relationship with at all. I'll call it luck, that he was treated poorly by this dealer which drove him back to his "usual" dealer who treated him well and gave him a great discount due to the prior relationship and all were happy.

If he was treated decently by the Pdigm dealer his "usual" dealer wouldn't have seen a dime of the $15K that was spent in spite of the relationship he had. So what would have been the point of developing the relationship with him as a customer at all? I can understand why some dealers don't bother giving first time customers a good discount if repeat customers won't even give them a shot at a $15K sale.

As I said before, if my "usual" dealer didn't carry Pdigms I wouldn't own my system. I would have purchased B&W, Thiels, or Klipsch. I understand if your looking to by a Lexus and all your "usual" dealer sells are Yugos but in the world of speakers...

Let me give you all a bit more info to explain things more clearly:

I was looking at speakers such as the Focal Electras; Revels; KEF Reference; Paradigm Sigs, etc. Unfortunately, the height of my A/V cabinet dictated that the centre channel speaker had to be under 9" approximately. This severely limited my choices. My 'usual' dealer from which I have a great relationship and buy everything from, only had the KEFs as an option. However, I did not want to spend that much money, even with the excellent discount he always gives me, plus the KEFs have been reported as 'bright', which I hate in a speaker.

Therefore, I decided on the Paradigm Sigs, which my 'usual' dealer does not sell, and talked to a local Paradigm dealer. I was aware from Gino's posts in the past that the dealer cost on the Sigs was 60% of MSRP; (btw, try finding MSRP written down somewhere). I personally felt that a 20%-25% discount from MSRP was an excellent deal, especially since I also was going to pay the shipping costs to get the speakers to the local dealer, and the only thing this very small dealer had to do in essence was place an order for me. By my calculations, they would have netted approximately $1500 just for placing an order for me, and btw telling me that I would have to pick them up myself. The 'best' discount they offered was 12.8% from MSRP.

Days before I was to place the order, I read the reviews on the PSB Synchrony line which are uniformly glowing, and have a centre channel speaker that fits in the space I have; called my 'usual' dealer who said that yes he was a PSB dealer, and how would I like 35% off? I was so happy with the money I was saving that I also ordered the new Denon Processor and 10 channel Amp combo! lol.

I have to agree with Warpdrv: the local dealer went from making what perhaps for a Paradigm dealer is a small profit, of approximately $1500, to making zero! Why? Because I was insulted by the dealer owner for having the audacity to actually ask for a further discount, and because for me, (YMMV of course), I found a comparable speaker at a much better price and with excellent service.

Bish

Thx Warp, I'll give it a try see what I can do.

Exactly!

He just lost $1500, a sale, a customer, referrals - and received bad word of mouth...

I contacted two dealers (both of which I would have to drive 100 miles to) and wanted to purchase a Statement D2, P5, along with a pair of Signature S8's, C5, ADP3 pair, and a Signature Servo...

Neither one gave me any sort of good price - which, by the way, I had to drive to in order to get.

I offered a price that would have given them a net profit of $6200 (if their cost is 60% of MSRP) - and both refused... So neither one made anything.

I can wait... they have bills to pay...

Let me give you all a bit more info to explain things more clearly:

My 'usual' dealer from which I have a great relationship and buy everything from, only had the KEFs as an option. However, I did not want to spend that much money, even with the excellent discount he always gives me, plus the KEFs have been reported as 'bright', which I hate in a speaker.

called my 'usual' dealer who said that yes he was a PSB dealer, and how would I like 35% off? I was so happy with the money I was saving that I also ordered the new Denon Processor and 10 channel Amp combo! lol.

I found a comparable speaker at a much better price and with excellent service.

Bish

Thanks for the clarification. Which goes back to my point, you should have stuck with your usual dealer from the beginning. :D

You got a great speaker at a great price and were able to get more stuff for your money all because of the relationship you have built over the years. It's nice to kick the tires elsewhere every now and then but when it's time to make the purchase go back to the person that has treated you right from the beginning.

I contacted two dealers (both of which I would have to drive 100 miles to) and wanted to purchase a Statement D2, P5, along with a pair of Signature S8's, C5, ADP3 pair, and a Signature Servo...

Neither one gave me any sort of good price - which, by the way, I had to drive to in order to get.

I offered a price that would have given them a net profit of $6200 (if their cost is 60% of MSRP) - and both refused... So neither one made anything.

I can wait... they have bills to pay...

Neither one of them made anything off of you. We don't know how much they off the next pigeon that walked in the door. As I said in a prior post both dealers were willing to gamble that the next person that walked in the door they were going to make a sale to. Maybe they did maybe they didn't, as you said they have bills to pay, both felt it was worth the risk letting you walk.

Just my 2 cents but I'm surprised that the dealers in here are supportive of the kind of "bargain hunting" that's been discussed around here which may be unfair on my part because I have 2 great dealers near me. Of course I do not agree with dealers, or anyone for that matter, being flat out rude but the quality of a dealer is not measured by how much discount they are willing to give, especially to a first time customer. The dealer closest to me for instance, gives a very small discount on what they carry (Paradigm, Monitor Audio, B&W, NAD, Arcam, Yamaha, etc.) but they are great guys running a small, family owned store and I am willing to buy from them at a slightly higher cost because I want to support their business.

We as customers have every right to shop around but to say a dealer is bad because he wouldn't give you the discount you wanted just for walking through the door is absurd.

We as customers have every right to shop around but to say a dealer is bad because he wouldn't give you the discount you wanted just for walking through the door is absurd.

No one is saying that they are "bad" people... well maybe some are, lol :D

Just bad businessmen ;)

Again, Marketing 101 - My Professor would constantly say, "Would you rather make a little less money or NO money?"

In my case, would you rather make $6200 (a 20% discount) or NOTHING?

Plus, would you rather have me telling my friends and colleagues that you gave me a good deal and sending them your way or telling them to go elsewhere...

Just bad businessmen ;)

Again, Marketing 101 - My Professor would constantly say, "Would you rather make a little less money or NO money?"



Ask your marketing 101 professor why do car dealers let people walk out on sales? Why don't ALL stores price match every single product they sell against any price that comes through the door? Ask your insurance guy why they won't match company X's rates?

Some how or another companies have survived letting people walk. The A/V business is no different. (They do face the challenge of selling a luxury item rather than a need item).

Doesn't mean it's right, but it does work.

For every customer that walks one stays its been that way in business forever or at
least untill the product can no longer be delivered.

is it accurate to say that with the studio 60s and studio 100s being the same sensitivity, that when played at the same level with the same amplifier that they would be equally loud? i am a little disappointed at the loudness of my studio 60s, and not sure if it is because of my 130x7 yamaha receiver or the speakers. but it does seem like the studio 60s are fairly efficient. i keep worrying and trying not to turn it up too loud cause i don't want to damage the speakers, so i usually limit myself to 3/4 or 4/5 of max volume. would i see a noticeable improvement with the 100s?

is it accurate to say that with the studio 60s and studio 100s being the same sensitivity, that when played at the same level with the same amplifier that they would be equally loud? i am a little disappointed at the loudness of my studio 60s, and not sure if it is because of my 130x7 yamaha receiver or the speakers. but it does seem like the studio 60s are fairly efficient. i keep worrying and trying not to turn it up too loud cause i don't want to damage the speakers, so i usually limit myself to 3/4 or 4/5 of max volume. would i see a noticeable improvement with the 100s?

Adding a amp will give you the volume providing you use a good amp and as
for the receiver some of the Yamaha's fell short on power and no rec as of
date has met their advertized 7.1 power rating close but not their under 1%
distortion and as for the 100's yes i feel they are more dynamic but they do
come alive with a real world 150 or better watts per channel.

Are Soundcity in NJ a dealer ? They dont seem to show up on the paradigm website when I search for dealers but they have some paradigm speakers for sale on their website. Anyone bought any speakers / equipment from them ?

Adding a amp will give you the volume providing you use a good amp and as
for the receiver some of the Yamaha's fell short on power and no rec as of
date has met their advertized 7.1 power rating close but not their under 1%
distortion and as for the 100's yes i feel they are more dynamic but they do
come alive with a real world 150 or better watts per channel.

but for most people would the studio 60s suffice in a 20x14 closed in room? i am thinking by adding the amp i will not need to upgrade to the 100s. i am, however, thinking of adding the cc-690 and just placing my plasma stand on top of it since it is so large, does anyone see a problem with that?

Ask your marketing 101 professor why do car dealers let people walk out on sales? Why don't ALL stores price match every single product they sell against any price that comes through the door?

Yup! I made a fair offer for a Pioneer 1150HD plasma to my local Best Buy. They turned me down, so I walked and bought it a local mom and pop store that did give me a good deal. Would BB have made money on me? Yes. Did they? No. Life goes on.

but for most people would the studio 60s suffice in a 20x14 closed in room? i am thinking by adding the amp i will not need to upgrade to the 100s. i am, however, thinking of adding the cc-690 and just placing my plasma stand on top of it since it is so large, does anyone see a problem with that?

Mine is 17 x17 with a 6ft cut in open to a 11 x 12 den that are both open to a
kitchen and i use the 100's with the 570 and 20's in the rear and i am completly satisfied. I believe Warp has his plasma on his 690.

Mine is 17 x17 with a 6ft cut in open to a 11 x 12 den that are both open to a
kitchen and i use the 100's with the 570 and 20's in the rear and i am completly satisfied. I believe Warp has his plasma on his 690.

that's back to my original question, how much louder are the 100s than the 60s with all other things equal?

aren't the cc-590 and cc-570 essentially the same speaker, with paradigm now adding a larger cc-690 to the mix? what is the 690 giving you over the 590?

To the first question with more drivers yes the midbass will be more pronounced and to
the second question the 690 will give a larger soundstage for applications where the l & r
are farther apart also the 690 will have a pronounced midrange because of the added
drivers.

To the first question with more drivers yes the midbass will be more pronounced and to
the second question the 690 will give a larger soundstage for applications where the l & r
are farther apart also the 690 will have a pronounced midrange because of the added
drivers.

would the 690 still be a good match for the studio 60s, or is it really too much speaker and needs to be paired with the 100s. i am looking for the optimal home theatre setup. very little music.

Are Soundcity in NJ a dealer ? They dont seem to show up on the paradigm website when I search for dealers but they have some paradigm speakers for sale on their website. Anyone bought any speakers / equipment from them ?

yes they are a dealer. ill be picking up my stuff first thing tomorrow!!! call em up and go take a look(depending on what part of NY), cuz theyre closin up shop and things are going FAST!!! ask for rich when u call and def dont order off the website... ull get a much better deal in person. any questions or if u want me to look for something in their store shoot me a pm.

would the 690 still be a good match for the studio 60s, or is it really too much speaker and needs to be paired with the 100s. i am looking for the optimal home theatre setup. very little music.

i run a cc690 and studio 60s, set up with my onkyo 875 receiver. i have no similar gear to compare it to, but i like it. certainly no obvious mismatch, to my ears.

(i am considering seeing what kind of tradein i can get for my 8-month-old 60s to move up to the 100s, not because i feel the 60s are lacking, just that i figure top of the line is probably better :)...i got the 60s several months prior to picking up my 690)

xjaguar23, I agree with what everyone is saying, If you can swing the funds for the 690, its a great center, but the 590 will sound as good... If your room is large the 690 will be worth the extra dough. And yes I can attest that the 690 will and does support a 50" Plasma with no problem, and has done so for over a year, Although that is one of the things still on my project list, this summer I will be getting to it.

I think both the 690 and 590 are great centers, and would work equally well.
I have the Signature C3 (identical to 590) matched up with the S4's and for movie performance it is fantastic, its in a smaller 1800^3 room, and the C5 would plainly be overkill, and rediculus. Dialog is great, and I can easily hit SPL's into the 100's, without any drop in performance.

would the 690 still be a good match for the studio 60s, or is it really too much speaker and needs to be paired with the 100s. i am looking for the optimal home theatre setup. very little music.

The 690, for a horizontal center, is fantastic! I have one and am almost always impressed. You have to get it up on a good stand or stands and out in the open for it to sound the best. Really opens up the sound.

Would have gone with another Studio 100 for the center if I was able to do an acoustic screen or if I was just using the system for multi-channel music, but right now I can't.

I
My dealer had a pair of Studio 100 v.3 that he would give to me for 1099, .

Wow, that is an amazing price.

I bought my used Studio 60 V.3 on Craigslist for $900 and I thought that was a good deal....and still is (still haven't seen them cheaper used).

I actually called Paradigm corp on Monday, and I spoke Gary Takeda about the matter. He was as unhelpful and unsympathetic as my dealer. He was the one that claimed FedEx lost it, even though FedEx had no record of even picking up the package let alone it getting lost somewhere. Paradigm corp was giving me and the dealer bogus tracking information.

While I agree the dealer is ultimately responsible and my interface to Paradigm, my direct dealings with corporate were equally as bad if not worse.

Wow, that's pretty bad. I might even go a step up to a manager or president, with a link to this thread showing all the bad rap Paradigm is getting.

Being their market is small and exclusive (compared to best buy brands), bad reputation and this forum can and probably will hurt sales....

I've bought all my Paradigms used.....

I have read this over and over again.... they do not like to deal directly with the customer at all.... Its nothing but a hassle for them... that is why they have dealers to intercept and handle public relations.

I would venture to say that the chances of ever talking to a person higher up then Gary is unlikelly.

This is the reason if you were getting nowhere with your dealer, that you try to fabricate you own. Far less headache IMO.

Call the President's office directly and ask for the President - you will prob get an assistant to the President.

Tell them the problem - I can almost guarantee you will get results fast...

If not, let us know - I will look to another brand if that is the case...

Call the President's office directly and ask for the President - you will prob get an assistant to the President.

Tell them the problem - I can almost guarantee you will get results fast...

If not, let us know - I will look to another brand if that is the case...

Well, just called my dealer at the parts are still not in. Even though they said it was shipped three day FedEx on Tuesday which would put it here on Friday. Dealer made an excuse that homeland security would hold it up a day so it might come Monday. Still no real tracking number. I'm out of town part of next week, so if it's not in by the time I get home I will call someone senior at Paradigm corp and complain very loudly.

Wow, that is an amazing price.

I bought my used Studio 60 V.3 on Craigslist for $900 and I thought that was a good deal....and still is (still haven't seen them cheaper used).

I must correct my mistake. I found my invoice and I actually got my pair of Studio 100's v.3 for 1,199. Still it was a price I couldn't let go.

i picked up my monitor 11's and my cc-390 today and i must say that im impressed, especially for what i paid. i switched from the energy c-series and it made a world of difference TO ME. HAPPY!!! (would be happier with some rears, lol)

Just picked up a centre channel, the CC-690. What an improvement in my HT. Sound field widened and now with front speakers set to LARGE, bass is now tighter. What a great centre channel:D

Just picked up a centre channel, the CC-690. What an improvement in my HT. Sound field widened and now with front speakers set to LARGE, bass is now tighter. What a great centre channel:D

had to one-up me huh? lol, more like 3-up! congrats. i love mine and u should love urs too

i picked up my monitor 11's and my cc-390 today and i must say that im impressed, especially for what i paid. i switched from the energy c-series and it made a world of difference TO ME. HAPPY!!! (would be happier with some rears, lol)

speaking of rears which would be the best value for rears primarily for movies?
a) titan monitor (could be moved to back surrounds for 7.1 in the future-cheaper)
b) monitor 7 (4 floorstanders-in between)
c) adp-390 (??polar surround-most money)

Paradigm owners, I'm considering the following systems:

7.1
Studio 100's, CC-690, ADP-590, SVS PB13-Ultra

or

5.2
Studio 100's, CC-690, ADP-590 (2 instead of 4), 2 SVS PB13-Ultra

I was hoping to get some input regarding:

1) If it were you, would you opt for the 7.1 or the 5.2 system and why?
2) Have any of you built the Studio 100's and CC-690 into a false front wall? If so, how did you do it and how does it sound?
3) What is the current MSRP for the Paradigms?

Thanks,
-Larry

Paradigm owners, I'm considering the following systems:

7.1
Studio 100's, CC-690, ADP-590, SVS PB13-Ultra

or

5.2
Studio 100's, CC-690, ADP-590 (2 instead of 4), 2 SVS PB13-Ultra

I was hoping to get some input regarding:

1) If it were you, would you opt for the 7.1 or the 5.2 system and why?
2) Have any of you built the Studio 100's and CC-690 into a false front wall? If so, how did you do it and how does it sound?
3) What is the current MSRP for the Paradigms?

Thanks,
-Larry

What size is your room? Is it a dedicated theater or multi purpose? How tight is your budget?

Larry forgo the second set of rear surrounds, and grab the dual Ultra13s... Sounds like you have a good size room... that would make an incredible system.

Dual subs would be the downright phenomenal... You can always get a second set of ADP's although I personally prefer a direct firing set of speakers for the rear surrounds, and you could put almost anything back there... hell audiogon has plenty of .v3 Studio 20's all the time, for rear surrounds, just throw something inexpensive in the back, even a set of Atom Monitors (http://www.paradigm.com/en/paradigm/fronts-monitor-atommonitor-model-2-4-1-1.paradigm) back there would be more then enough.

speaking of rears which would be the best value for rears primarily for movies?
a) titan monitor (could be moved to back surrounds for 7.1 in the future-cheaper)
b) monitor 7 (4 floorstanders-in between)
c) adp-390 (??polar surround-most money)

hey WARP. any advice for me? y do u personally prefer direct radiating speakers for surrounds? would the 7's be overkill???

hey WARP. any advice for me? y do u personally prefer direct radiating speakers for surrounds? would the 7's be overkill???

If it's for mostly movies they are probably overkill unless you listen to multi-channel music such as SACD or DVD-A. You'd probably don't even need titan's, just mini monitors IMO.

As far as direct vs. adp's it depends on your room configuration. If your room is symmetrical and you can put the adp's on the wall then you can make use of them. If not I'd go with direct radiating speakers.

I really think it depends on the size of the room. Big rooms can accommodate direct firing speakers as the side surrounds, and more narrow rooms work better with ADP's

The ADP's tend to smear the sound making it non-locatable which seems to work for the sides, but for rear surrounds (7.1), to me, I prefer the directional sound. To me it just helps identify where the sound is moving about behind me and blends with the side surround really well.

Surround speakers don't get a huge amount of material, and I think using huge speakers is a waste.

Are you planning a 5.1 surround?
How big is your room..?

My bedroom is 16-17' wide, and when I hung direct firing speakers for side surrounds, they just seemed to close and stuck out like a soar thumb. The ADP's are far better for me in here. It was a huge improvement over my first experience.

If it's for mostly movies they are probably overkill unless you listen to multi-channel music such as SACD or DVD-A. You'd probably don't even need titan's, just mini monitors IMO.

As far as direct vs. adp's it depends on your room configuration. If your room is symmetrical and you can put the adp's on the wall then you can make use of them. If not I'd go with direct radiating speakers.

i dont listen to any multi music just some regular stuff. do DR speakers work for more applications? cuz i can put the adp's on the wall now but im looking to move in the near future and i have no clue how my next place will be set up.

I really think it depends on the size of the room. Big rooms can accommodate direct firing speakers as the side surrounds, and more narrow rooms work better with ADP's

The ADP's tend to smear the sound making it non-locatable which seems to work for the sides, but for rear surrounds (7.1), to me, I prefer the directional sound. To me it just helps identify where the sound is moving about behind me and blends with the side surround really well.

Surround speakers don't get a huge amount of material, and I think using huge speakers is a waste.

Are you planning a 5.1 surround?
How big is your room..?

My bedroom is 16-17' wide, and when I hung direct firing speakers for side surrounds, they just seemed to close and stuck out like a soar thumb. The ADP's are far better for me in here. It was a huge improvement over my first experience.

planning to pick up surrounds to complete the 5.0 within a week or so. then a sub. and EVENTUALLY 2 back surrounds. the room im in now is tiny (~9x12) but i will be relocating and im looking for something that will suffice for a much larger room.

Well then I would suggest a set of ADP's.....
Get some used ones off Audiogon or ebay....

That should easily hold you over for a little while until you move... ;)

What size is your room? Is it a dedicated theater or multi purpose? How tight is your budget?

18x34 (with 2 risers so 11ft, 10ft and 9ft ceiling height)

I'm trying to keep budget around $8K for speakers (+ or - $1K)

Well then I would suggest a set of ADP's.....
Get some used ones off Audiogon or ebay....

That should easily hold you over for a little while until you move... ;)

i have yet to even see a set used!

Bought my first pair of serious speakers - a demo pair of Studio 100v4's for a great price. I was considering studio 100s, psb t65's and the reference line. But after the demo, the 100's were more than i wanted, and i stopped myself from auditioning the reference series. Still have to buy a receiver for this though. Thanks everyone for the really helpful threads.

Bought my first pair of serious speakers - a demo pair of Studio 100v4's for a great price. I was considering studio 100s, psb t65's and the reference line. But after the demo, the 100's were more than i wanted, and i stopped myself from auditioning the reference series. Still have to buy a receiver for this though. Thanks everyone for the really helpful threads.


Welcome to the club. :)

Looking for a dealer who provides a 20% (or greater :D) discount in MN, WI, IN, IA for a Signature purchase. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your help,

Mike

Looking for a dealer who provides a 20% (or greater :D) discount in MN, WI, IN, IA for a Signature purchase. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your help,

Mike

Have patients and watch Audiogon... You'll get more then 20% used.

I haven't been in this thread for a while (it was getting too confrontational for me), but since I posted a while ago with some pics, and got schooled for not having acoustic treatments, I figured I'd post my DIY ones. I'm mostly done (just need a couple of corner bass ones in the back):

Left wall - I did these shapes (2" panels) just so it wasn't too boring with rectangles everywhere:
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn16/AbMagFab/DSCN1809.jpg

Right wall:
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn16/AbMagFab/DSCN1808.jpg

Screen wall - A little hard to see, but 4" panels on left and right side of the screen, and 2" panels below the screen - pretty much killed this wall (oh yeah, and I built a stand for my center channel - it weighs 300 pounds, and is just an MDF block filled with sand, and covered with the black carpet of the stage):
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn16/AbMagFab/DSCN1810.jpg

Rear wall - 4" panels on the doors for slap-back, will be adding 4" bass traps in the corner at some point:
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn16/AbMagFab/DSCN1812.jpg

That's it. Hopefully this helps anyone out there who is considering this on their own. PM me if you want some info on what I did. Also check out audioholics, as they have some good folks there with good advice on panels.

-Mark

AbMag:

Are your front 3 speakers Studios or Signatures? I can't tell which models they are.

Has anyone been able to compare the Paradigm Signature C5 and the Studio CC690? If so, what were the main differences; advantages, etc?

I was looking at some paradigm monitor 5 bookshelf speakers on ebay. How do they sound and how old is this line. How does they stack up to polk monitor 50. Im looking to get some paradigm, just wondering which line is the best bang for the buck. I have no place close around hear to demo paradigm.

AbMag:

Are your front 3 speakers Studios or Signatures? I can't tell which models they are.

All sigs. S6/C5/ADP3/S2. Pictures for some reason don't do them justice, as the sigs look so much prettier than the studios.

Pictures for some reason don't do them justice, as the sigs look so much prettier than the studios.


Oh yeah, well the studios look so much prettier than the monitors.

Paradigm owners, I'm considering the following systems:

7.1
Studio 100's, CC-690, ADP-590, SVS PB13-Ultra

or

5.2
Studio 100's, CC-690, ADP-590 (2 instead of 4), 2 SVS PB13-Ultra

I was hoping to get some input regarding:

1) If it were you, would you opt for the 7.1 or the 5.2 system and why?
2) Have any of you built the Studio 100's and CC-690 into a false front wall? If so, how did you do it and how does it sound?
3) What is the current MSRP for the Paradigms?

Thanks,
-Larry

Allow me to weigh on this matter and I soon limited experience with the models in question.

Kudos to Warpdrv for identifying the smearing effect of any ADP type speaker used in :"7.1" setups. ADPS are designed to be used ONLY on the SIDE WALLS of a 5.1 or 7.1 systems. NEVER ON THE REAR WALLS.

In fact, many experts claim ADP is the less desirable speaker for use in almost any system do the smearing and homogenizing of the sound. This is caused by the phase and time anomolomies caused by the reflected sounds.

The rear speakers should always be a direct firing and about 2/3's up the wall behind the main seating positions.

While some may take issue with this, the 7.1 channels add so little benefit to the overall sound due to the limited source material generally available on prerecorded mass produced recordings. In fact more often that not your processor/receiver just modulates a bogus 7.1 signal of somewhat less quality than the side 5.1 channels. thus you may be just better off just keeping those signals out of the mix period.

Now on to the speaker issue:

100's v4-- good choice, cc590 good, FORGET THE ADP, use Atoms or Mini-monitors v5. Be sure to use quality cabling as you would in a 2 channel system

For the sub.....I strongly urge you to investigate the ********** model MFW-15 for $600.00 plus shipping. You can get 2 subs for the price you would pay for a single SVS!!!!! they come in a multitude of gorgeous finishes for $100 more.

I own them and and only the JL Fathom @$3500 outperforms them and then only by a small margin using test signals! I sold my JL 113 to buy them and a New Panasonic 58" Plasma!

Heres a link rating of subwoofer ratings---read it and weep when you see how your own model performs against virtually every serious player.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=9164136&postcount=8

Now that I complicated matters and disturbed all of your complacencies, Enjoy!

:)

I am looking to upgrade my receiver. I currently have an onkyo ts-dx787. I have enjoyed this receiver for 9 years. I am interested in dts ma now that the ps3 can output it. Also having hdmi would be nice. My question is are their any AV Pre Amps on the horizon that will take full advantage of the ps3. I have seen some info on a new Marantz product the AV8003.

My reason for looking for a surround preamp is my mains and rears are active speakers. My active speakers are Paradigm v1s that have 110w to the woofers and 50w to the tweeter.

If i want to just go with a avr which ones put enough power out to match the center with my mains and surround speakers?

Does anyone use non amplified separates in their home theater these days? Does it make that much a difference. Cause looking at the list price of the marantz it seems very expensive. I'm wondering if their would even be that much a difference.

Thank you all for your time.

I am posting here cause i have a paradigm surround setup.

I have Paradigm Reference Active 450lr (fronts) Studio 450 CC (Center) Active 20/v1 (rears) and Servo 15 v1 (sub)

I have slowly pieced this together starting with the 20s and then ebaying my way to surround heaven. I wanted to know if their are any other Active owners that have to power their center. I am thinking that an AVR would be a waste cause i would have a lot of power and heat to just use it for one channel. I think but are not sure that the amps from the first version of paradigm active line was produced by bryston. Would i be best off getting a small bryston amp to power my center? Or possibly getting a 3 channel one and some day stepping up to 7.1. I liked the onkyo and never had issues with it but with the new audio formats im thinking of upgrading my receiver.

Now on to the speaker issue:

100's v4-- good choice, cc590 good, FORGET THE ADP, use Atoms or Mini-monitors v5. Be sure to use quality cabling as you would in a 2 channel system

:)

y does it seem like no one suggests the titan v.5 for rears???

I am looking to upgrade my receiver. I currently have an onkyo ts-dx787. I have enjoyed this receiver for 9 years. I am interested in dts ma now that the ps3 can output it. Also having hdmi would be nice. My question is are their any AV Pre Amps on the horizon that will take full advantage of the ps3. I have seen some info on a new Marantz product the AV8003.

My reason for looking for a surround preamp is my mains and rears are active speakers. My active speakers are Paradigm v1s that have 110w to the woofers and 50w to the tweeter.

If i want to just go with a avr which ones put enough power out to match the center with my mains and surround speakers?

Does anyone use non amplified separates in their home theater these days? Does it make that much a difference. Cause looking at the list price of the marantz it seems very expensive. I'm wondering if their would even be that much a difference.

Thank you all for your time.

I am posting here cause i have a paradigm surround setup.

I have Paradigm Reference Active 450lr (fronts) Studio 450 CC (Center) Active 20/v1 (rears) and Servo 15 v1 (sub)

I have slowly pieced this together starting with the 20s and then ebaying my way to surround heaven. I wanted to know if their are any other Active owners that have to power their center. I am thinking that an AVR would be a waste cause i would have a lot of power and heat to just use it for one channel. I think but are not sure that the amps from the first version of paradigm active line was produced by bryston. Would i be best off getting a small bryston amp to power my center? Or possibly getting a 3 channel one and some day stepping up to 7.1. I liked the onkyo and never had issues with it but with the new audio formats im thinking of upgrading my receiver.


Not sure I totally understand, but I'm guessing you have old paradigm speakers that each have their own amplifier in them, and you just pass line-level audio to each one? Neat. A lot of studio speakers are like that.

I also can't quite tell if you're in need on an amp, or just want to take advantage of the new formats.

If you don't need any additional amplification, since you like Onkyo, I'd recommend going with the Integra 9.8 pre-pro (or the Onkyo Pro version, I think the 885). This will give you everything you want - HDMI, all the audio formats, lots of options, etc., without giving you unnecessary amps.

If you do need additional amps, then I'd need to understand more what your needs are, but I'd probably recommend the Onkyo TX-SR875. It's really cost effective, gives you a multitude of inputs (similar to the 9.8 above), plus a bunch of channel amps. (The only thing you don't get, that you would with the 9.8/885, are XLR inputs/outputs, so you'll have to deal with RCA/unbalanced, if that matters to you).

Hope this helps!

Oh yeah, well the studios look so much prettier than the monitors.

Sorry! I didn't mean anything other than the Sigs are so obviously Sigs when you see them, and the pictures just don't show that well.

y does it seem like no one suggests the titan v.5 for rears???

Because they need monster sized brackets to mount them on the walls, you cannot use the Paradigm MB-60 brackets as they can't handle the weight.

Secondly, they are quite large to have placed on the side and rear walls, they are 18.5"h x 12"d.

I have a pair in use for my front channels with a cc290 and minis for sides. The sub is a AV123 mfw-15 for my secondary HT system in my study.

For folks on a budget you can't beat the monitor series, they do such right and with the right Sub(not Paradigm) and cabling (Kimber 8TC or 4TC or even Anti-Cables: http://anticables.com/products.html).

Throw in a good receiver like a Denon 3808CI, Yamaha RX-V1800 or separates and your good to go for along time into the future. OOPs.. I forgot to mention a great DVD player like an OPPO for $200!!!! with built-in upscaling and among the best video processor in the market- Foroudja.

Not sure I totally understand, but I'm guessing you have old paradigm speakers that each have their own amplifier in them, and you just pass line-level audio to each one? Neat. A lot of studio speakers are like that.

I also can't quite tell if you're in need on an amp, or just want to take advantage of the new formats.

If you don't need any additional amplification, since you like Onkyo, I'd recommend going with the Integra 9.8 pre-pro (or the Onkyo Pro version, I think the 885). This will give you everything you want - HDMI, all the audio formats, lots of options, etc., without giving you unnecessary amps.

If you do need additional amps, then I'd need to understand more what your needs are, but I'd probably recommend the Onkyo TX-SR875. It's really cost effective, gives you a multitude of inputs (similar to the 9.8 above), plus a bunch of channel amps. (The only thing you don't get, that you would with the 9.8/885, are XLR inputs/outputs, so you'll have to deal with RCA/unbalanced, if that matters to you).

Hope this helps!

The only speaker in my 5.1 setup that needs amplification is my center. I am looking to get a multi channel receiver/peramp to use the rca inputs for mulit channel. I already use the XLR inputs in a 2ch setup so i am looking for a receiver/preamp that can do all the new formats. Thanks for the input.

I just picked up a pair of 11SE mark II in great condition for $200 CDN. I love the way they sound, especially the bass detail. Finally I can hear exactly what the bass is doing in my Tower of Power albums ;)

However, I'm not too impressed with the imaging. Vocals and solo instruments don't have a convincing center presence -- they always sound like they're coming from both speakers. My Atoms were much better at this. I've tried a couple of amps/CD players with more or less the same results. I've double checked the phase and even tried reversing the wires on one speaker (which made it way worse).

I can't find any reviews that talk about the 11SE's imaging. Is this just a weakness of the speakers? Or perhaps the tweeters are fatigued? Any feedback from 11SE owners would be appreciated.

I just picked up a pair of 11SE mark II in great condition for $200 CDN. I love the way they sound, especially the bass detail. Finally I can hear exactly what the bass is doing in my Tower of Power albums ;)

However, I'm not too impressed with the imaging. Vocals and solo instruments don't have a convincing center presence -- they always sound like they're coming from both speakers. My Atoms were much better at this. I've tried a couple of amps/CD players with more or less the same results. I've double checked the phase and even tried reversing the wires on one speaker (which made it way worse).

I can't find any reviews that talk about the 11SE's imaging. Is this just a weakness of the speakers? Or perhaps the tweeters are fatigued? Any feedback from 11SE owners would be appreciated.
Are the L&R speakers toed in and how far apart are they and what is the
distance you are seated at from them.

Hi everyone,

As part of a living room remodel I am planning an upgrade to my theater rig. I am looking at an NAD T775, Studio 20's, and matching center. I will keep my existing sub (M&K VX-1250). The room is fairly small at 11x15x8, no acoustic treatments.

-I am wondering if anyone has this setup?
-What are your opinions are as far as SQ, drawbacks, advantages, Especially since the space is fairly small and the speakers (especially the rears) won't be placed in the most ideal positions (close to walls or corners... etc).
-How do these speakers respond in smaller rooms, or close to walls/corners?
-What solutions did you find to help you fine tune?
-Anything else you can think of.

Thanks for any feedback you can provide.

Are the L&R speakers toed in
Yes, facing the listening position (a couple of feet behind actually)
and how far apart are they and what is the
distance you are seated at from them.
speakers are approx 8' apart and I'm sitting 9' from them.

Well, I did it! I scored some Studio 20's (v.3) on Audiogon. I can hardly wait for them to get here! :)

Now, on to the center channel. Now that I have decided on the mains, I will begin the search for a matching center. The thing is, I don't have much space for a center (my room is fairly shallow, and a large center = negative WAF :eek: ). Would a cc v.2 be a decent match for these, or no? The newer CC's are just too big for my scenario.

I'm probably not as picky as some about the center matching the mains, but I don't want something ridiculous either...

Yes, facing the listening position (a couple of feet behind actually)

speakers are approx 8' apart and I'm sitting 9' from them.

Try this site:
http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/speaker-setup-guidelines/loudspeaker-placement-guide

Are the 370 and 390cc the same just one is a older model and would the older model work with the new models Left and right channels.

Are the 370 and 390cc the same just one is a older model and would the older model work with the new models Left and right channels.

the 370 was a 3 driver center whereas the new 390 is a 7 driver setup.

Anyone using the paradigm studio 100's with a Denon 3808CI receiver? just wanted to get your thoughts on that for use in a home theater.

Thanks

AbMag:

You're right, that picture does not do the Signatures justice. I actually was showing a friend of mine what the Studios looked like and saw your picture and told him "that's them"... then I hesitated and said "well,... hold on, I can't tell for sure."

I got a pair of Atom Monitors for the bedroom and I like them so much I am moving them to the living room, I have them set on top of my old mains and they just sound ridiculously better.

Anyway, I am looking for suggestions for a sub, in the bedroom they were fine for my needs but I in the living room I missing the the low's for a fuller sound.

This setup will be for a mix of movie/music but primarily for music. Any suggestions for smaller sub, I don't need a whole lot. I am moving to smaller speakers for a reason, no need to be real loud anymore just looking for a clear, full sound. <-- hope that describes what I am looking for.

Regarding Cables:

I read somewhere in this thread that BlueJean Cables were a solid choice for speaker cables for the Studio series. Is that still the case or does someone have a different/better choice?

Wire is wire.... nothing magic there...

BlueJeans has good quality cable for a reasonable price..
Thats where I got mine, and fast delivery.

Also got some good shielded 5 channel audio from there as well... Helped with my buzz/hum

Regarding Cables:

I read somewhere in this thread that BlueJean Cables were a solid choice for speaker cables for the Studio series. Is that still the case or does someone have a different/better choice?

They have quality wire, but a little over priced, IMO.

If you get 14 or 12 gauge speaker wire from anywhere, you'll be fine. I prefer Monoprice for, well, the price, and the quality is top notch:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10239

Can't really beat 100-feet of 12-gauge 4-wire in-wall rated speaker wire for $66.

Is it a $200 difference in sound? I guess I have my reservations about the 3.5" mid in the CC-190. Thanks Paradigm experts.

I'd like to set up a simple 3.0 system. Right now, I own a pair of the Signature S2. I'm not very keen on HT, but I think I need a center speaker in order to hear the dialogue properly. So, the question is this: Can I use the Cinema CC or the CC-190 with my S2? I don't want to spend a lot on the center speaker, and my shelf cannot accept anything taller than 7 inches. (The CC-190 is 6-15/16 inches.) Thanks.

I'd like to set up a simple 3.0 system. Right now, I own a pair of the Signature S2. I'm not very keen on HT, but I think I need a center speaker in order to hear the dialogue properly. So, the question is this: Can I use the Cinema CC or the CC-190 with my S2? I don't want to spend a lot on the center speaker, and my shelf cannot accept anything taller than 7 inches. (The CC-190 is 6-15/16 inches.) Thanks.

I would run phantom center if you do not use a signature.

I just bought a servo 15 and have it hooked up xlr from a anthem d-2 and it hums. unhook xlr and it still hums, when it powers on the hum stops . is this normal that the servo 15 amp mums just being pluged into 120v ac ?

Ok, guys... sorry to revisit this in here again...

I need opinions on surround placement before I purchase surrounds.

I am planning on Studio 20's and CC-590. I can't decide on surrounds...

My couch is on the back wall directly across from the TV (about 11') with 3 feet and 5 feet on either side of the couch (room is 11x15x8)

Do I:
1) Get ADPs and mount on side walls
2) Get ADPs and mount on rear walls on either side of couch
3) Studio 20's on stands to the sides of the couch
4) In walls to sides
5) In ceilings

This will be a 5.1 system mostly for HT... currently all of my music listening is 2 channel only.

If your situation is the similar to mine please tell me what you did and pro/cons of your setup.

Thanks!

cpetkus, you don't have a huge room there, and its setup similar to my bedroom setup, I did ADP's on the sides about 2 feet from the back wall in a 5.1. I am very pleased with the sound. Studio 20's stick out way to far from the wall for a small room IMO. Looked like a soar thumb, and I didn't care for it... Thats my take...

Ok, guys... sorry to revisit this in here again...

I need opinions on surround placement before I purchase surrounds.

I am planning on Studio 20's and CC-590. I can't decide on surrounds...

My couch is on the back wall directly across from the TV (about 11') with 3 feet and 5 feet on either side of the couch (room is 11x15x8)

Do I:
1) Get ADPs and mount on side walls
2) Get ADPs and mount on rear walls on either side of couch
3) Studio 20's on stands to the sides of the couch
4) In walls to sides
5) In ceilings

This will be a 5.1 system mostly for HT... currently all of my music listening is 2 channel only.

If your situation is the similar to mine please tell me what you did and pro/cons of your setup.

Thanks!

from what ive read and been told adp are good for narrow rooms which allow for mounting on side walls only. direct radiating speakers such as the studio 20's would be great for most applications even at both sides of the couch. have no knowledge about options 4 and 5. im in a similar situation and im looking into the direct radiating speakers (titans, mini monitors, or atoms). hope this helps ya!

I love direct radiating for my sides, which is what I have in my living room, but the 20's are 15ft away from me, so it works great... but after hearing the ADP's for the first time, I have to say, I'm extremely happy with the results in my small room. And they look far less obtrusive, cool infact...

I am planning on Studio 20's and CC-590. I can't decide on surrounds...

My couch is on the back wall directly across from the TV (about 11') with 3 feet and 5 feet on either side of the couch (room is 11x15x8)

I would go with ADP's. I have close to the same scenario and once again, while watching the horrible "Golden Compass" movie, I just sat and reveled in the envelopment I get with them.

Ok, guys... sorry to revisit this in here again...
If your situation is the similar to mine please tell me what you did and pro/cons of your setup.


My room's a little larger than yours. I initially bought the ADP's for the rears and did not like the sound. I exchanged them for 20's and liked it better. I've got the 20's on speaker stands, but sometimes they are too directional. I think if they were mounted higher on the wall it would be better for surround sound.

-Steve

My room's a little larger than yours. I initially bought the ADP's for the rears and did not like the sound. I exchanged them for 20's and liked it better. I've got the 20's on speaker stands, but sometimes they are too directional. I think if they were mounted higher on the wall it would be better for surround sound.

-Steve

how high are they mounted compared to your listening position?

anybody with a servo-15. is there any hum with just the power cord pluged in ?

Thanks for the feedback on surrounds everyone.

scottshd, did you check your outlet for proper ground / wiring? Check / Eliminate everything else in the chain such as line conditioners / powerstrips / other nearby electronics? I'm not an expert, just some thoughts here...

Exactly....electrical outlet troubleshooting #1 -- plug an outlet tester into the outlet.

Is this a used sub or brand new?

thanks for the replys. sub is brand new.had a paridigm ps-1200 before with no hum. tried plugging in sub to differant circuits with the same hum. the house wiring is older so has no ground recepticles. and the sub cord also has no ground. I have one more circuit to try it on, one that I put in with a ground for my p-5 amp . not high enough amp circuit to run p-5 amp and sub

how high are they mounted compared to your listening position?
The 20's are mounted on the J29 stands and are placed on the sides of the room near the rear corners and faced slightly forward. They reside at ear height when seated. If I sit in the center of the sofa (which is against the back wall), I'm probably about 8' from each speaker and its OK. But if I sit closer to one side or the other (maybe within 3~4'), the near-side surround becomes directional. I think if I lifted them higher by about 3' it would be better.

Hey guys im in the market as you prob know from my annoying threads lol. Im thinking paradigm monitor 9's. My room is 11 by 11 with a 8 foot roof. I got to audition these once but never got to push them much. They sounded good but i wanna know if theres a better paradigm in that price range thats better for loud music listening. I like my music as loud as it can get but also as clear as i can get. Do you think the monitor 9 is for me or maybe the titan's etc? My budget is right around 1000 thanks for any help.

Hey guys im in the market as you prob know from my annoying threads lol. Im thinking paradigm monitor 9's. My room is 11 by 11 with a 8 foot roof. I got to audition these once but never got to push them much. They sounded good but i wanna know if theres a better paradigm in that price range thats better for loud music listening. I like my music as loud as it can get but also as clear as i can get. Do you think the monitor 9 is for me or maybe the titan's etc? My budget is right around 1000 thanks for any help.

i just got a set of the monitor 11's for a little less than ur looking to spend. i auditioned the 9's and 7's as well. the 9's sounded great and ive heard some people say they like the 7's better but id take another listen and c for sure, turn it up a lil. i love mine and they play music VERY well to my untrained ear but do lack a little bit in the bass dept. this is consistent throughout the v.5 line. but thats what subs are for!!!

i just got a set of the monitor 11's for a little less than ur looking to spend. i auditioned the 9's and 7's as well. the 9's sounded great and ive heard some people say they like the 7's better but id take another listen and c for sure, turn it up a lil. i love mine and they play music VERY well to my untrained ear but do lack a little bit in the bass dept. this is consistent throughout the v.5 line. but thats what subs are for!!!

see i was looking at all 3 of them to be honest but wasnt sure if the 11's would be a little too beefy for really detailed music. Im def. getting a sub within a month after i get my mains so bass wont be a big problem. Thanks for the response i guess ill go back this week and check em out again. Any place on the internet you know of for good deals on paradigm? my dealer here wanted just over a grand for the m9's and ive heard they sell quite a bit less then that? At least i can hear them before i decide lol. Nobody in this state carries any thing other then big name companies.

see i was looking at all 3 of them to be honest but wasnt sure if the 11's would be a little too beefy for really detailed music. Im def. getting a sub within a month after i get my mains so bass wont be a big problem. Thanks for the response i guess ill go back this week and check em out again. Any place on the internet you know of for good deals on paradigm? my dealer here wanted just over a grand for the m9's and ive heard they sell quite a bit less then that? At least i can hear them before i decide lol. Nobody in this state carries any thing other then big name companies.

theres a set on ebay going for 865 plus shipping which i believe comes out to about a grand. so listen again and if u like them, hop on it.
they reproduce music very well (i listen to all types). detail in the mids and highs is what they focused on in the v.5 series which was the tradeoff for the low end. if ur getting a sub that soon after u purchase ur mains i would take this into account while listening!

Okay, here are couple pics that look more like Sigs. Weird that they look so different in photos:

Fronts:
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn16/AbMagFab/DSCN1817.jpg

Rears:
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn16/AbMagFab/DSCN1818.jpg

The ADP3's look bigger in person, but the grills on/off don't make a huge difference.

Hey guys im in the market as you prob know from my annoying threads lol. Im thinking paradigm monitor 9's. My room is 11 by 11 with a 8 foot roof. I got to audition these once but never got to push them much. They sounded good but i wanna know if theres a better paradigm in that price range thats better for loud music listening. I like my music as loud as it can get but also as clear as i can get. Do you think the monitor 9 is for me or maybe the titan's etc? My budget is right around 1000 thanks for any help.

I have Monitor 9v5 speakers, currently in a room with similar dimensions as yours. I listen to a lot of classical music, so you can imagine that I am interested in detail. I cannot say that there is anything crucial missing for speakers of this kind (i.e., in this price range). I am very satisfied. With regards to loudness, I cannot imagine ever pushing these speakers to their extremes. I am sure my ears would start to bleed before getting to the limits of these speakers. I don't know how anyone could listen to them "as loud as they get", but if that's what you want, then go for it.

The best way to find out if these speakers work for you is to ask your vendor if you could have a pair for a couple of days, so that you can test them in your setting.

Good luck!

Best - MM

Ok, nearly a MONTH after my order was placed for the ADP-3 v2 mounting brackets, they came yesterday. Of course, no instructions were included. I do have a question about the safety wire. How is it supposed to be used? I don't see anything it could be attached to.

Ok, nearly a MONTH after my order was placed for the ADP-3 v2 mounting brackets, they came yesterday. Of course, no instructions were included. I do have a question about the safety wire. How is it supposed to be used? I don't see anything it could be attached to.

On the ADP3, there's a little hole in the middle (and you should have one screw for this with the brackets). Then you attach it to a screw in a stud in your wall (you'll need your own screw).

On the ADP3, there's a little hole in the middle (and you should have one screw for this with the brackets). Then you attach it to a screw in a stud in your wall (you'll need your own screw).

Hole in the middle of what? I did see the two holes for the mounting fins, which I of course used. But I don't see any other holes on the back or bottom of the speaker.

thanks for the replys. sub is brand new.had a paridigm ps-1200 before with no hum. tried plugging in sub to differant circuits with the same hum. the house wiring is older so has no ground recepticles. and the sub cord also has no ground. I have one more circuit to try it on, one that I put in with a ground for my p-5 amp . not high enough amp circuit to run p-5 amp and sub

Did you solve this?

I just found this thread which may help you too: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=322698

wheres the best place to pick up some mounting brackets for the atoms or mini monitors?

Hole in the middle of what? I did see the two holes for the mounting fins, which I of course used. But I don't see any other holes on the back or bottom of the speaker.

There's another hole in the speaker, on the back, below the fin. I think it might be in with the speaker terminals?

If you can't find it, I'll take mine off the wall and take a picture and post it.

(I've got Sig ADP3 v2's)

my son broke one of my studio 20's grill and i am looking to replace it. do guys know how much one will cost? and can I buy it individually or is it package for 2?

I have Monitor 9v5 speakers, currently in a room with similar dimensions as yours. I listen to a lot of classical music, so you can imagine that I am interested in detail. I cannot say that there is anything crucial missing for speakers of this kind (i.e., in this price range). I am very satisfied. With regards to loudness, I cannot imagine ever pushing these speakers to their extremes. I am sure my ears would start to bleed before getting to the limits of these speakers. I don't know how anyone could listen to them "as loud as they get", but if that's what you want, then go for it.

The best way to find out if these speakers work for you is to ask your vendor if you could have a pair for a couple of days, so that you can test them in your setting.

Good luck!

Best - MM

heck yeah man thats exactly the answer i was looking for. Yeah i didnt mean as loud as they went that was misleading. Just really loud but still clear and comfortable. Thanks for the insight do you mind telling me what you paid for them maybe in a pm if you wanted? just wanna know what im looking at before the guy trys to rape me. Im gonna check and see about dealers outside my area too. thanks again for your reply.

Garrett

There's another hole in the speaker, on the back, below the fin. I think it might be in with the speaker terminals?

If you can't find it, I'll take mine off the wall and take a picture and post it.

(I've got Sig ADP3 v2's)

Well, all I can say is there's positively no hole in the back of my speakers. If you could snap a picture that would be great...but I'm pretty sure mine are 'hole-less'.

heck yeah man thats exactly the answer i was looking for. Yeah i didnt mean as loud as they went that was misleading. Just really loud but still clear and comfortable. Thanks for the insight do you mind telling me what you paid for them maybe in a pm if you wanted? just wanna know what im looking at before the guy trys to rape me. Im gonna check and see about dealers outside my area too. thanks again for your reply.

Garrett

I paid 10% below list price.

my son broke one of my studio 20's grill and i am looking to replace it. do guys know how much one will cost? and can I buy it individually or is it package for 2?

Last time I needed one for a 60, it was $40. Probably close to that for a 20.

cpektus thanks for the link. and no I have;nt solved it yet have been busy, hopefully this weekend I'll get a chance to try. I was thinking because there is no ground prong on the sub that its not a ground loop problem. my anthem d-2 processor anthem p-5 amp also have no ground prong on the power cords. just seems odd that it hums with only the power cord plugged in ,plug the xlr input in no change to the hum, but the hum decreases when the sub powers on.

Im thinking about getting the atoms for use as main speakers. I have a smaller room 9x12. I have a cheapy sony frontstage right now (best buy discount) but they are floorstanding. Would the atoms and matching center be enough speaker for the room. JW because im auditioning them tomorrow. Local dealer has the 3 priced at 500. I have a good BIC acoustech sub that is more than enough to power the low end.

cpektus thanks for the link. and no I have;nt solved it yet have been busy, hopefully this weekend I'll get a chance to try. I was thinking because there is no ground prong on the sub that its not a ground loop problem. my anthem d-2 processor anthem p-5 amp also have no ground prong on the power cords. just seems odd that it hums with only the power cord plugged in ,plug the xlr input in no change to the hum, but the hum decreases when the sub powers on.

Out of curiosity does it hum if you use the rca connection instead of the xlr.

AbMag:

Now those look like Signatures! What a difference a picture makes.

woohoo my 5.1 setup is complete. now comes the tweaking

i may end up saving for a set of monitor 7 or 9's for the front's. but that means rearraning(elminating my coffee table) the living room. and then moving my titans to the surrounds, and my atoms to the Surround backs.

anyway my setup so far
Fronts: Titan Monitor v.5's
center: cc-190
surrounds: atom monitor v.5's
subwoofer: SVS pci 20-39

AVR: denon 2808ci
TV: mistsu 65" 65-733 DLP
xbox 360+hd-dvd
DishNetwork 722 HDDVD
oppo 970HD(for SACD And DVD audio)

planning on getting a PS3 shortly.

but man the improvement witht he surrounds over some cheap sony speakers i had is phenomenal

Im thinking about getting the atoms for use as main speakers. I have a smaller room 9x12. I have a cheapy sony frontstage right now (best buy discount) but they are floorstanding. Would the atoms and matching center be enough speaker for the room. JW because im auditioning them tomorrow. Local dealer has the 3 priced at 500. I have a good BIC acoustech sub that is more than enough to power the low end.

Maybe someone who knows more about it than I do will chime in, but I think a lot will depend on your amplification, your room itself, and how loud you want to listen. I have Atoms as my mains in a room larger than yours and I'm very pleased with them. I'm sure I can't hit 125db, but it can still get uncomfortably loud for most folks.

anybody with a servo-15. is there any hum with just the power cord pluged in ?

I have the Servo 15v2 and there's no hum at all.

Hope this helps!

oztech and ohdee thanks for the replies. the sub hums quite loudly with just the power cord pluged in and no input cable. when I plug the xlr in no change in hum, turn on the processor and amp and any source when the sub gets a signal and powers up the hum is almost gone , have to have my ear within about a foot or less away to hear any hum. hopefully sunday I'll have time to try pluging it into other circuits I have'nt tried yet, and uplugging the rest of the equipment.

oztech and ohdee thanks for the replies. the sub hums quite loudly with just the power cord pluged in and no input cable. when I plug the xlr in no change in hum, turn on the processor and amp and any source when the sub gets a signal and powers up the hum is almost gone , have to have my ear within about a foot or less away to hear any hum. hopefully sunday I'll have time to try pluging it into other circuits I have'nt tried yet, and uplugging the rest of the equipment.

I'm afraid with no inputs and your getting a hum the amp has a problem time
to give the dealer a call.

oztech that is what I was thinking also. before I call my dealer I'll try other circuits and disconnecting all equipment. if it has to go back I burned the shipping box last saturday. only good thing I still have my ps-1200 to use until the servo-15 would come back.

oztech that is what I was thinking also. before I call my dealer I'll try other circuits and disconnecting all equipment. if it has to go back I burned the shipping box last saturday. only good thing I still have my ps-1200 to use until the servo-15 would come back.

Maybe the dealer could just get an amp exchange for you.

Is there a web-site to get some pricing on the Paradigm lines. The dealers in my area are well over an hour away and I didn't see a price list on the Paradigm site. Thanks.

Is there a web-site to get some pricing on the Paradigm lines. The dealers in my area are well over an hour away and I didn't see a price list on the Paradigm site. Thanks.

http://www.legacyaudiovideo.com/paradigm1.html
just a rough figure. some of their stuff has gone up in price!!!

so anyone have any experiance with the performance series?
--soheil

hi..
i own a lot of paradigm speaker from Monitor series to Referrence Series..

i own monitor 7 v4 w/ adp sorround sound then i change to monitor 11 v5 front and make my monitor v4 as my sorround.

im not happy with the sound i know i need a lot more?

now im in referrence series... STUDIO 60 v4 new Front , Studio 20's on Sorround and Titan on Sorround Back. w/ PW2200 SUB. im a little happy . im plan to upgrade to studio 100 for my front.

Would anyone please comment on your opinion of the Studio V3 line vs. the Studio V4 line. Particularly the 60's and the 570's.
Thanks for you opinions!

just got home with my cc690. While unboxing I realized the dealer didn't include the jumpers! So its just sitting there till i get them in the mail. (It was the floor model and he forgot to put them in the box) I could create my own jumpers with speaker wire, but i can just use my old center till they come. Never thought I would still be waiting to hear this bad boy while it was set up in my system!

You could also use a coat hanger as a jumper... :)
Or any good speaker wire will work just as well... You wouldn't see me sitting waiting to fire it up after I just dumped all the $$.

It has been proven not to make a damn bit of difference... :)

hmmm....i had never heard of using coat hanger. Were you joking, or does that actually work?
I

just got home with my cc690. While unboxing I realized the dealer didn't include the jumpers! So its just sitting there till i get them in the mail. (It was the floor model and he forgot to put them in the box) I could create my own jumpers with speaker wire, but i can just use my old center till they come. Never thought I would still be waiting to hear this bad boy while it was set up in my system!

Make them out of your speaker wire it will work great no audible loss or gain.

hmmm....i had never heard of using coat hanger. Were you joking, or does that actually work?
I

I was joking, but seriously, its metal, it will make the connection, and it will suffer no audible loss either... unless there is a coating covering the metal, which is usually the case (coat hangers are dipped/sprayed to protect against rust) you would have to scratch it off, no big deal. For the most part, metal is metal and it will conduct just fine. Copper wire would be better. They like to promote gold conducting material as its soft and easily seats, and is a good conductor, much like copper or even alluminum makes a great conductor.

If you have the blanks from the other CC use that... if that doesn't fit, just like oztech stated, use speaker wire, with a couple of THESE (http://www.ramelectronics.net/renderImage.image?imageName=products/1056-S-KIT.jpg&width=300&height=200&padding=0) it will be just fine... :)

Would it be a problem if I put the ATOM speakers on these wall brackets http://www.crutchfield.com/S-7srAB6ELQ2S/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?search=bt77&i=121BT77B

Since they are rear ported Im wondering if I should get the PSB image 15 instead.