I think you know the answer to that one before you asked it.. Sure adding an external amp is going to sound better with your 100s compared to the Denon. Also lighten the load on your Denon when you run surrounds from it. Personally maybe being cheap I take the XPA-5 and run 5 speakers from the amp. You can get the amp, save some money, and power 5 speakers. Just a thought. EMotiva Amps are on sale at the moment. XPA-5 going for $700 now.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1105298

I'm also considering going external for my amp and was hoping someone could provide any actual reasoning for why it would sound better?

His current receiver has 7 seperate amplifiers each at 140watts. So he won't be dealing with the surrounds getting less power due to the fronts needing the most etc or any situation like that.

If he's only using let's say 70-100 watts on his current receiver, (most likely much less except for very high peaks) then what will cause his sound to improve? Is using 70 watts of 200 better for sound quality when compared to using 70 watts of 140?

I sometimes feel like if they put the Emotiva XPA-5 guts in a receiver without knowing, people would blindly suggest that a XPA-5 would improve their sound.

I'm not suggesting this is the case here, but that's my general feeling on the matter. Possibly like how people are with using 10 gauge instead of 12 gauge for a 6 foot cable run etc.

Thanks for the insight!

I think you know the answer to that one before you asked it.. Sure adding an external amp is going to sound better with your 100s compared to the Denon. Also lighten the load on your Denon when you run surrounds from it. Personally maybe being cheap I take the XPA-5 and run 5 speakers from the amp. You can get the amp, save some money, and power 5 speakers. Just a thought. EMotiva Amps are on sale at the moment. XPA-5 going for $700 now.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1105298

+1

if you got the funds go for the Anthem A5, you want at the very least you want the Left Right Center powered by an external amp.

I'm also considering going external for my amp and was hoping someone could provide any actual reasoning for why it would sound better?

His current receiver has 7 seperate amplifiers each at 140watts. So he won't be dealing with the surrounds getting less power due to the fronts needing the most etc or any situation like that.

If he's only using let's say 70-100 watts on his current receiver, (most likely much less except for very high peaks) then what will cause his sound to improve? Is using 70 watts of 200 better for sound quality when compared to using 70 watts of 140?

Thanks for the insight!

First off have you looked up for amp to see what true output is under 7 channels. I have Onkyo 807 rated at 135 watts per channel but when I looked it up.. under 7 channel load true output was down in 80s watt range(not uncommon for lower end AVR). So that 140 watt number isn't all the true unless you are in the 2-3K AVRs or just running 2 channels and even then wont be 140 watts.

The other way you can look at it go into a car speaker setup in BB (with bunch of different speakers,subs, amps, ect you can click on) and try a basic 50 watt AMP and then try good 500 watt AMP with a good set of car speakers. Then see you if you can hear a difference. Then general control of the woofers and tweeters is better due to more force being able to stop and start them.

First off have you looked up for amp to see what true output is under 7 channels. I have Onkyo 807 rated at 135 watts per channel but when I looked it up.. under 7 channel load true output was down in 80s watt range(not uncommon for lower end AVR). So that 140 watt number isn't all the true unless you are in the 2-3K AVRs or just running 2 channels and even then wont be 140 watts.

The other way you can look at it go into a car speaker setup in BB (with bunch of different speakers,subs, amps, ect you can click on) and try a basic 50 watt AMP and then try good 500 watt AMP with a good set of car speakers. Then see you if you can hear a difference. Then general control of the woofers and tweeters is better due to more force being able to stop and start them.

Thanks!
Any idea how to check a Denon's true output?

Here is what mine shows: (AVR-889 / AVR-2309CI)
Amplifier Output Details 100 Watt - 8 Ohm - 20 - 20000 Hz - THD 0.08% - 2 channel(s) ( front ) ¦ 100 Watt - 8 Ohm - 20 - 20000 Hz - THD 0.08% - 1 channel(s) ( center ) ¦ 100 Watt - 8 Ohm - 20 - 20000 Hz - THD 0.08% - 2 channel(s) ( surround ) ¦ 100 Watt - 8 Ohm - 20 - 20000 Hz - THD 0.08% - 2 channel(s) ( surround back ) ¦ 135 Watt - 6 Ohm - at 1 kHz - THD 0.7% - 2 channel(s) ( front ) ¦ 135 Watt - 6 Ohm - at 1 kHz - THD 0.7% - 1 channel(s) ( center ) ¦ 135 Watt - 6 Ohm - at 1 kHz - THD 0.7% - 2 channel(s) ( surround ) ¦ 135 Watt - 6 Ohm - at 1 Hz - THD 0.7% - 2 channel(s) ( surround back )

Thanks for everyone contributing to my question. You see, my thinking is much like Vaggeto's in that I do not think I'm using all of the power that my Denon in kicking outer right now since it is mainly used for HT. I'm not worried about spending $1,500 to $2,000 on a decent amp, but I'm more concerned about whether I'm going to notice any difference after making the investment. If the sound is going to be 99% the same, then I would think it wouldn't make sense to buy the amp.

I think Chrisfromalbany that you are under the assumption that I'm exceeding the Denon's power ability, or at least using it close to capactiy whereas I'm not really sure if that is the case or not. I wish I had a friend with a decent amp that I could try the two setups to see what difference it really would make.

I appreciate anyone else that may have a perspective here.

Cheers and thanks all.

I found the specs on the 4308ci. It is rated at 140watt x 7 but actual under load is 126 x 5 or 111 x7 per sound and vision bench test.

I'm currently running a 5 channel system so it would suggest I'm getting 126watts per channel.

Link to the bench test is here for anyone that may be interested.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/2676/test-bench-denon-avr-4308ci-av-receiver.html

Whoa, hang on...

There can definitely be an improvement by going to external amps but it's not a "slam dunk" as some would suggest.

There's a whole bunch of factors that come into play, like size of room, where you crossover your speakers, speaker efficiency, how much your room EQ boosts certain frequencies...

Even if a multichannel amp is only putting out 80 watts "all channels driven" the frequency or occurrence of all channels requiring full output actually happening is slim to none. Using a sub or subs also greatly reduces the load on the receivers, and the "all channel's driven" load.
To anyone thinking about adding an external amp, just do a simple test with an SPL meter in-hand; find a few materials you're familiar with and play them at the loudest you'd probably listen to them .. are they clean and non-fatiguing at that volume? Then crank it up and see if there's more room to go even louder obviously if they can meet both those criteria - why add an external amp? The SPL meter will show you how loud it really gets, if you can get to 95 -100db cleanly, that's the most you'll need. It's also a good way to see what an external amp would add if you went that route.

I added and external amp when I had the v.1 Studio 100's which were less efficient than today's versions, only to find out there was no appreciable difference over the receiver when I sold them and hooked the receiver back up.

I've since learned that it takes a fair bit of difference in power to get an appreciable difference in output. I don't know what the ratio is but I don't think going from 100w to 200w is as significant as the doubling suggests.

I just became the proud owner of a pair of Paradigm Studio 40 v. 2. Lucked into a very good craigslist deal on them and also an HSU STF-2. I have really been missing the boat on some great audio!!. Previously I had Polk R10's and an Onkyo HTIB sub, so this is like going from a Chevy Aveo to a Maserati. The sound is unbelievable from this system now!! I'm just blown away. I'm just happy I lucked into this deal--otherwise I would never have paid the price to enjoy speakers like this.

Paradigm Studio 40's-$250
Paradigm Studio CC-$50
HSU STF-2-$155
Onkyo TX-SR607-$365

My ear to ear smile-PRICELESS

Would you guys mind recommending a suitable A/V receiver for the following package I just purchased:

Pair of Studio 60s v.5 Floor standing speakers
Studio CC-490 v.5 Center Channel
A Pair of Studio ADP590 v.5 Rears
Studio Sub 12 v.5

I also have a Pioneer Kuro Elite 151fd and will be using this system for 90% HT

Thanks in advance. I am finding A/V receiver shopping to be quite daunting.

at normal listening levels I could not tell much difference between NAD receiver and NAD separates when I had both. However, when cranking to reference levels, there was a large difference. The separates, for me, provided a much smoother sound, not as shouty and rough sounding. I think the difference between my NAD amp (140x7) and the receiver (80x5 I think it was or something like that) was the amp could deliver much higher peak wattage for bursts of time when required (up to 230 per channel I think)..it was the NAD T973....if you listen loud, and watch movies at reference levels (where there are many sudden, and large dynamic peaks), I think having an external amp helps quite a bit. If you dont listen like that, I doubt many could tell the difference....these tests were done with my old Paradigm MOnitor 7's as well as my VSA speakers that replaced them

get the Pioneer Sc-25 or 27, only good things i have heard of those. especially powering the paradigms.

I just became the proud owner of a pair of Paradigm Studio 40 v. 2. Lucked into a very good craigslist deal on them and also an HSU STF-2. I have really been missing the boat on some great audio!!. Previously I had Polk R10's and an Onkyo HTIB sub, so this is like going from a Chevy Aveo to a Maserati. The sound is unbelievable from this system now!! I'm just blown away. I'm just happy I lucked into this deal--otherwise I would never have paid the price to enjoy speakers like this.

Paradigm Studio 40's-$250
Paradigm Studio CC-$50
HSU STF-2-$155
Onkyo TX-SR607-$365

My ear to ear smile-PRICELESS


WOW! That is a great score! Congrats!

at normal listening levels I could not tell much difference between NAD receiver and NAD separates when I had both. However, when cranking to reference levels, there was a large difference. The separates, for me, provided a much smoother sound, not as shouty and rough sounding. I think the difference between my NAD amp (140x7) and the receiver (80x5 I think it was or something like that) was the amp could deliver much higher peak wattage for bursts of time when required (up to 230 per channel I think)..it was the NAD T973....if you listen loud, and watch movies at reference levels (where there are many sudden, and large dynamic peaks), I think having an external amp helps quite a bit. If you dont listen like that, I doubt many could tell the difference....these tests were done with my old Paradigm MOnitor 7's as well as my VSA speakers that replaced them

Sure, but the pre-amp is a major component to change, on its' own it might be able to deliver a better dynamic range and quieter noise floor to the amps than the receiver could given the higher quality analog output stage.

What is being discussed is adding an amp to the receiver, in which case the same pre-amp is in play.

Sure, but the pre-amp is a major component to change, on its' own it might be able to deliver a better dynamic range and quieter noise floor to the amps than the receiver could given the higher quality analog output stage.

What is being discussed is adding an amp to the receiver, in which case the same pre-amp is in play.

ah ha..I missed that part:). I guess I will see shortly, as I have recently changed gear and have been using a receiver only for now, but I am going to add an external amp via the preouts..I will see how it goes

ah ha..I missed that part:). I guess I will see shortly, as I have recently changed gear and have been using a receiver only for now, but I am going to add an external amp via the preouts..I will see how it goes

Well, there's also the "psycho-acoustic" phenomenon at play too..
I was convinced I heard a dramatic improvement when I added the amps only to find out it really wasn't the case.
It's hard to be objective after you buy something because inevitably you've already convinced yourself of a positive outcome by making that decision in the first place!

Again I'm not saying it can't help, just that it's simply not an absolute that it will, depending on the situation.

Would you guys mind recommending a suitable A/V receiver for the following package I just purchased:

Pair of Studio 60s v.5 Floor standing speakers
Studio CC-490 v.5 Center Channel
A Pair of Studio ADP590 v.5 Rears
Studio Sub 12 v.5

I also have a Pioneer Kuro Elite 151fd and will be using this system for 90% HT

Thanks in advance. I am finding A/V receiver shopping to be quite daunting.

What kind of budget are you looking at? Do you want to stream music from an i-Pod or your computer? Blu-Ray?

What kind of budget are you looking at? Do you want to stream music from an i-Pod or your computer? Blu-Ray?

I won't require any music streaming. The only music I would really be listening to is my music concert selection on DVD/Blu Ray.

Almost all of the setups use will be for movies.

I won't require any music streaming. The only music I would really be listening to is my music concert selection on DVD/Blu Ray.

Almost all of the setups use will be for movies.

Oky doke so what about budget?

Oky doke so what about budget?

Sorry about that - forgot the most important part. $1200 - $1500

Need a little advice.

Current V2 setup:

Studio 100
Studio CC
Studio ADP
Studio 20 (rear)
Servo-15

Built it all second hand off ebay and audiogon, still the best 5 years later. The sub arrived smashed up and rebuilt the cabinet(thx to my clumsy RC flying i became experienced with woodworking lately hehe), did replace a midrange driver, total cost not more than $2000.

Is v2 still considered to be one of the most tonally balanced?

Also, money no object, is it worth upgrading to the latest Sig. series?

My setup includes an Onkyo PR-SC885P balanced(i know not the path) Canare/Neutrik cables to a Marsh Audio Design Class A stereo for fronts, and Sherbourn monoblocks to the rest, with 2 Panamax Max 5510 Pros, one filtered, one balanced, for components and amps respectively. SACD prominently featured of course.

I want subjective stuff please, i am just an amateur.

Also, money no object, is it worth upgrading to the latest Sig. series?

Thx

I'd have to say yes. Especially the S8's, I can't say enough about how good these things are. They will be the last pair of speakers I buy.

I won't require any music streaming. The only music I would really be listening to is my music concert selection on DVD/Blu Ray.

Almost all of the setups use will be for movies.

You are missing out big time on SACD, IMHO if you get up to Paradigms you should be able to enjoy them fully.

I'd have to say yes. Especially the S8's, I can't say enough about how good these things are. They will be the last pair of speakers I buy.

Yep, there goes my C-mas bonus, it will have to be the 2011 instead of 2010 Acura TL SHAWD 6MT then :)

Yep, there goes my C-mas bonus, it will have to be the 2011 instead of 2010 Acura TL SHAWD 6MT then :)

Well I'm flattered you take my word for it, but at the same time I know you'll get value for dollar.

You are missing out big time on SACD, IMHO if you get up to Paradigms you should be able to enjoy them fully.

If he doesn't already have a collection he won't be missing anything, live concert Blu Ray's in DTS HD MA & TrueHD are on par if not better than SACD and audio only Blu Rays are also becoming more readily available.

When I bought my v3 Studio 100's they were known to dip to 2.6 ohms in the lower midrange as I recall. Do not know if the v4's are the same. At the time Paradigm listed the 100's as "8 ohm compatible" which is an interesting way to specify resistance. Not all amps handle low Ohm dips the same.

I auditioned my Studio's at home using an AVM-30 and an MCA-50 AMP, bought the speakers and hooked them up to a 110 wpc rated Sony ES receiver. I was very dissatisfied, the only reason that I did not take the speakers back was that I knew they sounded great with different electronics. When I put in an Anthem D1 and P5 everything was fine. I auditioned the MCA-50 against the P5 and did not think that blind I could tell the difference but went for the P5 anyway, never know when you might need 500 watts at 4 ohms :-).

The fact is that the couple of specifications that are used to measure the components that go into this hobby can not possibly capture every possible significant characteristic. Take two women with identical figures, can you tell which one has a graceful walk by knowing her "dimensions"? Not hardly.

So, no one can tell you for sure if you in your setting would hear a difference. Some will tell you a bunch of reasons it can not possibly be so, others are sure it would.

Based on my experience I would suggest you try to demo three mono blocks or a three channel amp, but that is me. :-)





Hi all, I have a very general question that I'm hoping someone can give me some good input on. My current setup consists of the following:

Paradigm Studio 100 V4
Paradigm Signature W5 C Center
PSB 400 rear (soon to be replaced to Paradigm Signature ADP3)
PSB sub (to be replaced in the future)

All are being driven by my Denon AVR-4308CI. My question is, will I really benefit from adding external amplifiers into my system such as an Anthem A2 (two channel x 200watt) for the fronts etc. The main use of this system is for HT and we mainly watch movies on it. I play music on weekends but at low levels.

Will adding external amps make the speakers sound better (cleaner power than the Denon), and is this justified if I am not cranking the power to them?

Your thoughts are really appreciated.

Thanks in advance all!

Sorry about that - forgot the most important part. $1200 - $1500

Well, new you could probably negotiate your way into a Denon 4310ci, or Pioneer Elite SC-25 (w/ICEpower amp section) at the top end of that scale.

I happen to really like the ICEpower/Paradigm combo, ICEpower amps excel at bass control, which will help the 100's shine IMO. I'm not familiar with Pioneer's room correction, but have read good things about it.
I have a real comfort level with Audyssey and Denon products in general so I don't think you could go wrong with either.

If you went used you could look for the Pio SC-07, or Denon 4308ci & up.

When I bought my v3 Studio 100's they were known to dip to 2.6 ohms in the lower midrange as I recall. Do not know if the v4's are the same. At the time Paradigm listed the 100's as "8 ohm compatible" which is an interesting way to specify resistance. Not all amps handle low Ohm dips the same.

I auditioned my Studio's at home using an AVM-30 and an MCA-50 AMP

Again, it's different using a pre amp vs a receiver feed the amps. The amount of headroom you need/want will be based on room and tastes.
Personally I run my CC & mains with 500w @ 8ohms ICEpower monoblocks (1000w into 4ohms). I definitely don't need that much power but I figured they'll be the last amps I'll buy regardless of speakers or room. Having said that my surround ADP v.1's which aren't as efficient as my mains have no problem keeping up being powered by 125w ICE monos. And I listen to near rock concert levels in my rig at times.

ICEpower amps are stable down to below 2ohms which may explain why the 125w units can keep up.

I will second the IcePower amps, they are a great match with the Paradigms...

I have both the Wyred4Sound and D-Sonic driving my 2 setups and they have performed flawlessly with Studio's .v4, Sigs .v1 and Sigs .v3... No complaints.

I didn't however care for the Pioneer receiver as a pre-amp, it came off harsh and bright in the upper end... I was always EQ-ing the highend down to keep my ears from bleeding - it was replaced with the Anthem D2v and I couldn't be happier, so much smoother and precise.... the front end is equally as important for SQ...

Just thought Id share some of my experience... not all front ends sound the same

I noticed that the Paradigm Studio 60's are 2 1/2 way speakers. Is this necessarily inherently "inferior" to 3 way speakers ? The Studio 100's are 3 way. What does one lose w/ 2 1/2 way? I am just a little surprised that the 60's, as "relatively expensive" as they are would NOT be 3 way.
Any clarification on this, please? Thanks !

This is not necessarily a detraction.... the more x-overs built into a design can complicate things... Nothing wrong with a 2 1/2 way, my Sig S4's are 2 1/2 way and sound fantastic. The mid and bass drivers will occupy the same space instead of separated. The 60's will offer less output with the smaller drivers then the 100's. I noticed a bit better midrange clarity with the 100's, but not much.

I researched this as well before I bought the Sig S4's...

?????? 40 .v5's....

Whoops! LOL! 20's!

I didn't however care for the Pioneer receiver as a pre-amp, it came off harsh and bright in the upper end... I was always EQ-ing the highend down to keep my ears from bleeding - it was replaced with the Anthem D2v and I couldn't be happier, so much smoother and precise.... the front end is equally as important for SQ...

Just thought Id share some of my experience... not all front ends sound the same

Well, comparing a $1600 receiver to a $7k dedicated pre-amp I would hope there'd be an improvement!

I doubt that Pioneer would put a lot of resources toward the analog output stage of this particular unit since its' entire design is based on getting the signal direct to ICE section. I've read very positive responses on it and few negative. Did you give it a go without external amps?

Is there a noticeable difference between the Monitor 11 system to the Studio 60 System?? Just curious since the price between the systems is quite high...so I am wondering if there is quite a high difference in sounds??

Thanks Guys.

Well, comparing a $1600 receiver to a $7k dedicated pre-amp I would hope there'd be an improvement!

I doubt that Pioneer would put a lot of resources toward the analog output stage of this particular unit since its' entire design is based on getting the signal direct to ICE section. I've read very positive responses on it and few negative. Did you give it a go without external amps?

I'm sorry, I was not very clear, I was using an even lesser grade receiver (not IcePower) outputting to my various amps and even the Wyred or D-Sonic amp... I was less then impressed with the MCACC after running multiple times. I thought it would do a better job with room correction.

Yes I used it both with internal and external amps and no improvement in SQ IMO... I had them for a good amount of time, they were not as horrible after adjusting EQ to tame the harshness... I guess I figure that MCACC wouldn't not be all that different from model to model. You certainly don't see alot of writeups on the room correcting abililties of MCACC.

YMMV

I'm sorry, I was not very clear, I was using an even lesser grade receiver (not IcePower) outputting to my various amps and even the Wyred or D-Sonic amp... I was less then impressed with the MCACC after running multiple times. I thought it would do a better job with room correction.

Yes I used it both with internal and external amps and no improvement in SQ IMO... I had them for a good amount of time, they were not as horrible after adjusting EQ to tame the harshness... I guess I figure that MCACC wouldn't not be all that different from model to model. You certainly don't see alot of writeups on the room correcting abililties of MCACC.

YMMV

Oh, okay, I get it now, the ICEpower models are a complete redesign over their traditional receivers. They actually worked with B&O to design the multiple channel board for their application and have done some serious work in HDMI jitter elimination. Not a big deal for hi-rez codecs, but it is for the rest of what you feed it with HDMI.

I don't know much about the MCACC at all, I know they have and "advanced" version in their Elite Series now and not sure what improvements that brings over previous versions, but I'd be surprised if it was on par with Audyssey or ARC.

Is there a noticeable difference between the Monitor 11 system to the Studio 60 System?? Just curious since the price between the systems is quite high...so I am wondering if there is quite a high difference in sounds??

Thanks Guys.

Anyone?

Anyone?

?

There mustn't be that many monitor 11 owners on this thread! I own monitor 7's v3 myself and auditioned a pair of studio 60 v5 about 5 weeks ago. The difference was quite apparent and I would have eventually purchased the 60's except I happened across a good deal on a pair of Sig 6 v3.

Mind you, they had Bryston gear(150w/2) running the studio 60's while my monitor 7's are hooked up to an onkyo 876.

There mustn't be that many monitor 11 owners on this thread! I own monitor 7's v3 myself and auditioned a pair of studio 60 v5 about 5 weeks ago. The difference was quite apparent and I would have eventually purchased the 60's except I happened across a good deal on a pair of Sig 6 v3.

Mind you, they had Bryston gear(150w/2) running the studio 60's while my monitor 7's are hooked up to an onkyo 876.

How you like your Monitor 7's?? I am thinking on purchasing a system soon and just want feedback as I will listen and demo speakers before I do. Thanks for the info.

Hi Guys,

I finally got moved into my condo and I promised I'd post some pics. Also I wanted to thank everyone again for all your help choosing my speakers. I posted a similar thread in the Pioneer SC-O5/07 owners section because the folks there were extremely helpful as well.

My HT room is extremely small, only about 8X10. I have the following equipment:

Paradigm Studio 20's
Paradigm Studio CC590 center
Paradigm Mini Monitor rears
Paradigm SUB12
Pioneer SC-05 Receiver
BDP 151-FD bly-ray player (got this for $125 CDN, seemed like a good buy!)
74" (custom size) 16:9 Carada Classic Cinema White Precision series screen
Epson 6500 UB projector

http://mschlosser.smugmug.com/photos/724945153_khS7w-XL.jpg

This picture helps you understand just how small the room is, the shorter 8' dimension is what I am working with for the most part. The couch is up against the back wall, and the rear speakers are mounted to the back wall:
http://mschlosser.smugmug.com/photos/724944722_hMSsW-XL.jpg

The SUB12
http://mschlosser.smugmug.com/photos/724946001_AinbZ-XL.jpg

CC590 Center. Apparently the kit to control the angle of the center channel is optional, and I did not get it haha. I reversed the feet and that seemed to work perfectly.
http://mschlosser.smugmug.com/photos/724945545_f3m7V-XL.jpg

Studio 20
http://mschlosser.smugmug.com/photos/724946508_32yUm-XL.jpg

Still working on cable management:
http://mschlosser.smugmug.com/photos/724947382_izVYj-XL.jpg

And here's the back wall, and my makeshift projector shelf:
http://mschlosser.smugmug.com/photos/724947905_Sh358-XL.jpg

The problem I am discovering is that the back wall rattles like hell (metal studs not fastened to drywall or something) because the metal studs and drywall rattle together when there is extremely deep bass. I have a post in the Subwoofer forum asking for suggestions but short of filling the wall with expandable insulation, I don't know there is much I can do other than try a subdude and sub equalization (I'll have the PBK-1 soon). This wall separates interior rooms, as the exterior walls, floor, and ceiling are concrete. It isn't too bad, because it only rattles during the really, really deep bass. I still want to fix it though.

I am currently trying to calibrate my projector (colors are great, gamma is a PITA), and after that it will be pretty much good to go.

Thanks again for all the advice!

Thanks,

Mark

I would be interested in your opinion of my upgrade, if any.
Current setup:
Onkyo 906 bridged L & R
Paragigm Studio 100s L & R
CC 590 Center
ADP 590 surrounds

Upgrade: change CC 590 to CC 690 OR
Add dedicated 3 channel 200W +/- for fronts?

Thanks guys/girls

How you like your Monitor 7's?? I am thinking on purchasing a system soon and just want feedback as I will listen and demo speakers before I do. Thanks for the info.

The current version is much different than my v3, but I find then to be very neutral and open, they achieve that quality where the sound doesn't seem to be coming from the speakers themselves. Which I guess means that they put up a nice sound stage.

I find them to be a bit shallow in the bass department though, and perhaps a bit clinical as opposed to being more musical. I suggest you take several cds that you know well when you go shopping and try to compare at least a couple of models in the same room.




And Ayrton, your studio 100's vary much in the impedance and can tax a receiver under 4 ohms. Therefore you might find your biggest gain to be with an amp. I just purchased the Emotiva XPA-3 and it is an improvement, but it depends on how loud you like it. BTW, what improvement are you hoping to gain by swapping out your center channel?

Hi Guys,

I finally got moved into my condo and I promised I'd post some pics. Also I wanted to thank everyone again for all your help choosing my speakers. I posted a similar thread in the Pioneer SC-O5/07 owners section because the folks there were extremely helpful as well.

My HT room is extremely small, only about 8X10. I have the following equipment:

Paradigm Studio 20's
Paradigm Studio CC590 center
Paradigm Mini Monitor rears
Paradigm SUB12
Pioneer SC-05 Receiver
BDP 151-FD bly-ray player (got this for $125 CDN, seemed like a good buy!)
74" (custom size) 16:9 Carada Classic Cinema White Precision series screen
Epson 6500 UB projector

http://mschlosser.smugmug.com/photos/724945153_khS7w-XL.jpg

This picture helps you understand just how small the room is, the shorter 8' dimension is what I am working with for the most part. The couch is up against the back wall, and the rear speakers are mounted to the back wall:
http://mschlosser.smugmug.com/photos/724944722_hMSsW-XL.jpg

The SUB12
http://mschlosser.smugmug.com/photos/724946001_AinbZ-XL.jpg

CC590 Center. Apparently the kit to control the angle of the center channel is optional, and I did not get it haha. I reversed the feet and that seemed to work perfectly.
http://mschlosser.smugmug.com/photos/724945545_f3m7V-XL.jpg

Studio 20
http://mschlosser.smugmug.com/photos/724946508_32yUm-XL.jpg

Still working on cable management:
http://mschlosser.smugmug.com/photos/724947382_izVYj-XL.jpg

And here's the back wall, and my makeshift projector shelf:
http://mschlosser.smugmug.com/photos/724947905_Sh358-XL.jpg

The problem I am discovering is that the back wall rattles like hell (metal studs not fastened to drywall or something) because the metal studs and drywall rattle together when there is extremely deep bass. I have a post in the Subwoofer forum asking for suggestions but short of filling the wall with expandable insulation, I don't know there is much I can do other than try a subdude and sub equalization (I'll have the PBK-1 soon). This wall separates interior rooms, as the exterior walls, floor, and ceiling are concrete. It isn't too bad, because it only rattles during the really, really deep bass. I still want to fix it though.

I am currently trying to calibrate my projector (colors are great, gamma is a PITA), and after that it will be pretty much good to go.

Thanks again for all the advice!

Thanks,

Mark

Nice!! That sub must shake the foundations of that smallish room! :cool:

The problem I am discovering is that the back wall rattles like hell (metal studs not fastened to drywall or something) because the metal studs and drywall rattle together when there is extremely deep bass. I have a post in the Subwoofer forum asking for suggestions but short of filling the wall with expandable insulation, I don't know there is much I can do other than try a subdude and sub equalization (I'll have the PBK-1 soon). This wall separates interior rooms, as the exterior walls, floor, and ceiling are concrete. It isn't too bad, because it only rattles during the really, really deep bass. I still want to fix it though.

I am currently trying to calibrate my projector (colors are great, gamma is a PITA), and after that it will be pretty much good to go.

Thanks again for all the advice!

Thanks,

Mark

Short of using more screws to secure the drywall, the expandable insulation would be the only other solution. Sometimes there are metal stiffeners in the wall. These could be making noise as well. The insulation would also cure this.

I would be interested in your opinion of my upgrade, if any.
Current setup:
Onkyo 906 bridged L & R
Paragigm Studio 100s L & R
CC 590 Center
ADP 590 surrounds

Upgrade: change CC 590 to CC 690 OR
Add dedicated 3 channel 200W +/- for fronts?

Thanks guys/girls

If you're running that setup with a capable sub, I wouldn't bother upgrading the CC.

What size room?

If you're running that setup with a capable sub, I wouldn't bother upgrading the CC.

What size room?

Room = 16' L X 14' W X 8' H
Sub = Paradigm Siesmic 10

Thanks, John

Is it a relatively closed off room (or open to the rest of the house)? 1800 cubed feet isn't tough to drive and the 906 if I recall probably gets 100watts x 7 all driven.

Not sure you'll notice much of a difference upgrading the amps, especially if you're crossing the speakers at 80hz.

Personally, for the most noticeable upgrade I'd either:

1. Upgrade the sub to something that can dig deeper and louder
2. Purchase either room treatments or a P-EQ for your sub (like the SVS AS-EQ for instance).

Both of the above, IMO, will be a more noticeable upgrade than a new amp or better CC.


But YMMV!

Short of using more screws to secure the drywall, the expandable insulation would be the only other solution. Sometimes there are metal stiffeners in the wall. These could be making noise as well. The insulation would also cure this.

That would make sense because I find it hard to believe the studs themselves wouldn't be attached to the drywall, or the drywall wouldn't be standing up. I suspect its a stiffener or something. What kind of insulation would I need to spray in there? Could I just cut some small holes and spray it in or is it a huge job?

Thanks for your help,

Mark

That would make sense because I find it hard to believe the studs themselves wouldn't be attached to the drywall, or the drywall wouldn't be standing up. I suspect its a stiffener or something. What kind of insulation would I need to spray in there? Could I just cut some small holes and spray it in or is it a huge job?

Thanks for your help,

Mark

I haven't done it myself so I won't tell you how to do it. I found a link to a site that pretty well covers the topic.

Hope it helps.

http://expandingfoaminsulationguide.com/diy-expanding-foam-insulation/

Is it a relatively closed off room (or open to the rest of the house)? 1800 cubed feet isn't tough to drive and the 906 if I recall probably gets 100watts x 7 all driven.

Not sure you'll notice much of a difference upgrading the amps, especially if you're crossing the speakers at 80hz.

Personally, for the most noticeable upgrade I'd either:

1. Upgrade the sub to something that can dig deeper and louder
2. Purchase either room treatments or a P-EQ for your sub (like the SVS AS-EQ for instance).

Both of the above, IMO, will be a more noticeable upgrade than a new amp or better CC.


But YMMV!

Thanks for your input.
I may hold on my upgrades as system sounds pretty solid now, or when I can afford Sigs.

That would make sense because I find it hard to believe the studs themselves wouldn't be attached to the drywall, or the drywall wouldn't be standing up. I suspect its a stiffener or something. What kind of insulation would I need to spray in there? Could I just cut some small holes and spray it in or is it a huge job?

Thanks for your help,

Mark


I can tell you that plenty of workers take shortcuts if they can get away with it... I bought my new house, and after I got my HT up and running, I had the nastiest vibration in my bathroom halfway across the house, turns out it was the same scenario - no drywall screws on a couple of studs and the drywall was making this god aweful noise... I found that out crankin heavy bass tunes while takin a dump.... hhehehe scared the $hit right out of me.... :D

I found that out crankin heavy bass tunes while takin a dump....

almost poetic :D

I'm looking to build a modest 5.1 system for my desktop and am starting by looking for speakers. Not an owner yet, but came accross these:
http://calgary.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-electronics-Pioneer-Elite-amp-with-4-Paradigm-speakers-W0QQAdIdZ170862185

Assuming that they can be purchased separately that is, for less than $475, are those speakers good?

Okay so I am sorry for the newb questions but I am looking to add an amplifier to my setup. I don't have the manuals that came with my paradigm's so I went on their site to see their wattage to know what to look for in an amp. This only confused me. It lists two different things under the speaker specs: "Suitable Amplifier Power Range" and "Maximum Input Power". The Atoms "suitable range" is 15-80 watts but the "max input power" is 50 watts. What should my amp be rated at? :confused:

Okay so I am sorry for the newb questions but I am looking to add an amplifier to my setup. I don't have the manuals that came with my paradigm's so I went on their site to see their wattage to know what to look for in an amp. This only confused me. It lists two different things under the speaker specs: "Suitable Amplifier Power Range" and "Maximum Input Power". The Atoms "suitable range" is 15-80 watts but the "max input power" is 50 watts. What should my amp be rated at? :confused:

I would get a 100W AVR. Most AVRs when driving 7 channels put out less than their rated power.If you get an underpowered one you can get distortion which will blow a driver faster than overdriving it. Paradigm mentions this in their manuals.

my .02 See what the rest say...

Okay so I am sorry for the newb questions but I am looking to add an amplifier to my setup. I don't have the manuals that came with my paradigm's so I went on their site to see their wattage to know what to look for in an amp. This only confused me. It lists two different things under the speaker specs: "Suitable Amplifier Power Range" and "Maximum Input Power". The Atoms "suitable range" is 15-80 watts but the "max input power" is 50 watts. What should my amp be rated at? :confused:

You hardly ever see damage from to large an amp unless someone gets carried away with the volume the suitable range is a guideline as to what
amplification will work closer to the higher number the better. Max input is
sustained power which will probably run you out of the room before it reached
that point. What is preferred is an amp that will handle dynamics with low distortion.

Okay so I am sorry for the newb questions but I am looking to add an amplifier to my setup. I don't have the manuals that came with my paradigm's so I went on their site to see their wattage to know what to look for in an amp. This only confused me. It lists two different things under the speaker specs: "Suitable Amplifier Power Range" and "Maximum Input Power". The Atoms "suitable range" is 15-80 watts but the "max input power" is 50 watts. What should my amp be rated at? :confused:

I think the first questions should be what are you adding an amp to, and what are you wanting or expecting to get from that addition?

The response so far is right, too much power is actually safer than not enough with some self control.

Looking to buy my first set of Paradigm speakers. My price range is hovering right around the $800/set. I went in and listened to a couple of of different paradigm sets this morning. The Monitor 7s fronts are going for $399/each so they are perfect for my price range. Unfortunately the only speakers that were in stock (and in my price range) were the Monitor Atoms, the Studio 10s, and the Monitor 9s. The 10s were great, but the 9s were part of 5.1 set up and the media playing was just a live recording that sounded muddy. I feel like if the 9s were set up alone, and hooked up to a receiver set to a stereo setting I might have gotten a better feel for what they are capable of.
The Studio 10s were selling for about $800 for the pair but I would need to buy the stands to support them. Which bumps the whole package into the price range of the 9s (about $499/each).
What are some of your opinions about the Monitor vs. the Studio series? Should I get the Studio 10s or the Monitor 9s? Right now I am leaning towards the 7s or the 9s, mostly because I feel like the lower end might be supported better on a tower.
Any advice you can offer would be great. Thanks!

Looking to buy my first set of Paradigm speakers. My price range is hovering right around the $800/set. I went in and listened to a couple of of different paradigm sets this morning. The Monitor 7s fronts are going for $399/each so they are perfect for my price range. Unfortunately the only speakers that were in stock (and in my price range) were the Monitor Atoms, the Studio 10s, and the Monitor 9s. The 10s were great, but the 9s were part of 5.1 set up and the media playing was just a live recording that sounded muddy. I feel like if the 9s were set up alone, and hooked up to a receiver set to a stereo setting I might have gotten a better feel for what they are capable of.
The Studio 10s were selling for about $800 for the pair but I would need to buy the stands to support them. Which bumps the whole package into the price range of the 9s (about $499/each).
What are some of your opinions about the Monitor vs. the Studio series? Should I get the Studio 10s or the Monitor 9s? Right now I am leaning towards the 7s or the 9s, mostly because I feel like the lower end might be supported better on a tower.
Any advice you can offer would be great. Thanks!i would get the studio 10's with a nice sub. you can always move the 10's for surrounds in the future

I have had my Paradigm Studio Ref. v.1 for 10 years! (3 60's in front, 4 20's in back) Just wondering if much improvement has been made over the years....not that I'm getting rid of mine, but just curious.

Hope this is not a double post, but just wondering if my speakers still stack up to the new rev of the reference series.....here's a pic of my room...I have 3 studio 60's v.1 (center is v.2) in front, while I have 4 studio 20's in back. They still sound good to me and just wondering if there has been some major improvements/differences in sound....these things are bullet-proof!

I think the first questions should be what are you adding an amp to, and what are you wanting or expecting to get from that addition

I am currently using a Pioneer VSX 1018 and I am looking for just an overall improvement in sound quality. I would also like a little more range at lower volumes.

I am currently using a Pioneer VSX 1018 and I am looking for just an overall improvement in sound quality. I would also like a little more range at lower volumes.

Well, this might not be what you want to hear but having a quick glance at the specs of that reciever, well, it seems fairly competent. Cetainly 130w/channel should be more than ample for most speakers and at a THD of .009% plus a FR of 5hz o 100Khz (which is likely +/- 3db). I don't think adding an amp is going to be of any benefit at all.
I think if you want to get the upgrade in sound you're looking for, upgrading the speakers might be your best bet. Are you using a sub?

Just curious, how good do the studio 20s sound? I was planning on stepping up from my monitor setup to the 20s. But it seems there are a lot of 20s for sale. Is there a problem with these? Thanks in advance

I think if you want to get the upgrade in sound you're looking for, upgrading the speakers might be your best bet. Are you using a sub?

Well I recently added a PS1000 sub into the mix and it did make a huge difference. Perhaps a better center channel is what I should be looking for and not an amp. I currently have a CC-170 center channel. I do find it hard to believe that the Pioneer is even outputting half of the claimed WPC. I had a VSX 1015 before and it seemed to have better amps. I have the Atom front speakers. What center would go best?

Just curious, how good do the studio 20s sound? I was planning on stepping up from my monitor setup to the 20s. But it seems there are a lot of 20s for sale. Is there a problem with these? Thanks in advance

No not at all, this hobby has a lot of "upgraders", such as people going from v.3's to v.5's etc.

If you can get you hands on a pair of 20v.3's & up you're not likely to find much to outperform them for $500-$600 a pair.

Just curious, how good do the studio 20s sound? I was planning on stepping up from my monitor setup to the 20s. But it seems there are a lot of 20s for sale. Is there a problem with these? Thanks in advance


Where are you seeing all these 20 for sale...

I'm selling my Studio 100's and 20's .v4, only because I upgraded them to Signatures... CC-690 has been spoken for already.

They are very good speakers actually...

I do find it hard to believe that the Pioneer is even outputting half of the claimed WPC. I had a VSX 1015 before and it seemed to have better amps. I have the Atom front speakers. What center would go best?

People need to stop worrying about watts, for the most part it is one of the most over-hyped specs out there and probably the least relevant in the big scheme of things.
Heck, I've powered a pair of full range Celestion Ditton 44's (3-ways w 12" bass drivers), with a $110 7w/ch Trends amp and it had no problem getting to reasonable listening levels cleanly.

Even if you're receiver isn't meeting spec, it's probably not something you should be able to tell over the previous one you had. If you find it's seriously not putting out the same SPL, double check your wiring in case something is out of phase.

I'm not familiar with the Atoms, but if you're happy with them, then their matching center should be the ticket..

I still say you'd get more significant results going up to something like the Studios than adding an amp.

I'm selling my Studio 100's and 20's .v4.....

There you go J450N! ;)

rnrgagne,

Thanks for the info. I think I am going to look for a new center and go from there. Perhaps in the future I will try some studio 20's. Thanks again.

rnrgagne,

Thanks for the info. I think I am going to look for a new center and go from there. Perhaps in the future I will try some studio 20's. Thanks again.

I remember hearing the CC170 many years ago with my fathers first Paradigm Setup.

It was Mini-Monitors, Atoms, Micros, PDR-10. He upgraded the center channel from a HTIB center to a CC170 and we didn't feel the CC-170 matched very well with the Mini-Monitors... it felt weak and "small" and I wonder now if it possibly had something wrong with it.

We replaced it within a week with the CC-370 and it was a night and day difference.

So depending on what your other speakers are, you'd probably notice a nice increase in performance by upgrading your CC. I hear the CC-290 sounds better than the CC-370.

Does anyone have any recommendations on what a Seismic 12 is worth 2 years old in good condition?

I believe it would be a huge upgrade for me from the PS1000 I have but I'm trying to find the value and there isn't much history to go off of.

I really don't care about size, so I'm hoping I'm not paying a premium for the smaller form factor in the Seismic 12.
Should I have any concerns running it on the same circuit as my AVR and other electronics? It's 1500 watts RMS is a huge jump from where I'm currently at.

I hear the CC-290 sounds better than the CC-370.

Thanks for the advice. I have been looking at either the CC-190 or the CC-290. I have the Atoms for my fronts and Paradigm's site recommends the CC-190, 290 or 390 for use with the Atoms.

Hope this is not a double post, but just wondering if my speakers still stack up to the new rev of the reference series.....here's a pic of my room...I have 3 studio 60's v.1 (center is v.2) in front, while I have 4 studio 20's in back. They still sound good to me and just wondering if there has been some major improvements/differences in sound....these things are bullet-proof!

what are the dimensions of that room?

Hope this is not a double post, but just wondering if my speakers still stack up to the new rev of the reference series.....here's a pic of my room...I have 3 studio 60's v.1 (center is v.2) in front, while I have 4 studio 20's in back. They still sound good to me and just wondering if there has been some major improvements/differences in sound....these things are bullet-proof!

Yes there have been some changes, your ears will have to tell you if they are major or not.

If your budget allows go out and give some v4s a listen. If you can't afford an upgrade, stay out of the store so you're not tempted. :D

Thanks for the advice. I have been looking at either the CC-190 or the CC-290. I have the Atoms for my fronts and Paradigm's site recommends the CC-190, 290 or 390 for use with the Atoms.


Go with the 290.
I have/had the 190 and while nice was somewhat lacking as a center. The dialogue was a bit muddy and too low at times regardless of adjustments. I replaced it with the 290 and the difference was very impressive. Dialogue is much better and I'm very happy with its' overall performance.
At the time it was part of a 5.1 using Monitor 3's as fronts, Atoms as surrounds and PDR-12 as sub. I replaced the 3's with Monitor 11's and it is a very nice system.

Looking to buy my first set of Paradigm speakers. My price range is hovering right around the $800/set. I went in and listened to a couple of of different paradigm sets this morning. The Monitor 7s fronts are going for $399/each so they are perfect for my price range. Unfortunately the only speakers that were in stock (and in my price range) were the Monitor Atoms, the Studio 10s, and the Monitor 9s. The 10s were great, but the 9s were part of 5.1 set up and the media playing was just a live recording that sounded muddy. I feel like if the 9s were set up alone, and hooked up to a receiver set to a stereo setting I might have gotten a better feel for what they are capable of.
The Studio 10s were selling for about $800 for the pair but I would need to buy the stands to support them. Which bumps the whole package into the price range of the 9s (about $499/each).
What are some of your opinions about the Monitor vs. the Studio series? Should I get the Studio 10s or the Monitor 9s? Right now I am leaning towards the 7s or the 9s, mostly because I feel like the lower end might be supported better on a tower.
Any advice you can offer would be great. Thanks!

My local shop allowed me to take home a pair of Monitor 7's and 11's to compare/contrast for a week when I was in the market for a pair of fronts to replace my Monitor 3's. After an hour of listening I decided on the 11's. The 7's were lacking in mid-range...during 2 channel and 5.1 listening tests using varied cd's and dvd's...I also used the Monitor 3's and just used the A/B speaker connection on the receiver and switched between the 2 I was testing...and there was no bass at all to speak of. I didn't expect them to be in the area of the 11's but they were not even close. I also did comparison testing between the 7's and 3's. The 7's were just a tiny bit better in mid-range but the 3's had a better/deeper bass.
The shop had no 9's in stock to test, they may have been a perfect step up from the 3's but they gave me such a good price on a new/in the box pair of 11's that I bought them.

If I had the choice you have I would go for the Studio 10's, I have listened to them and the sound quality is quite wonderful. Buy less expensive stands and save the money. Alternatively ask them to sell the 9's. In this economy I'd be surprised if they said no.
Take your own music/movies when listening to speakers. I have made up a compilation cd of varied favorite songs that I know quite well. The cd encompasses a variety of music by some of my favorite artists...Frank Sinatra, Annie Lennox, AC/DC, Aerosmith, etc. Just one or two songs that are favorites and will test the speakers or other hardware. I also take along a couple of dvd's that have great/favorite audio/video scenes. Any shop worth its' salt and your business will be happy to play your material...my shops salesperson liked my compilation cd better than his and I gave it to him...good relationship building there and easy to replace as I had the compilation music in a separate folder anyway.

As I end this long reply I add that starting with the Studio 10's, as you don't talk about what the rest of your system consists of, you will have a wonderful base to start a very nice 5.1 system.
Good luck and keep us informed.

Has anyone heard the new SE edition paradigms? http://paradigm.com/en/paradigm/fronts-specialedition%28se%29-series-1-2-31.paradigm Do you think they are worth an upgrade from the monitor series? Nobody sells them locally so I can't go check them out to hear for myself. Thanks

Curious, for those of you with Sigs, on the actual box, does it say "Made in Canada" on it?

I'm wondering if the NAFTA rules would allow them to be taken acros the border duty free if they do say that?

Hope this is not a double post, but just wondering if my speakers still stack up to the new rev of the reference series.....here's a pic of my room...I have 3 studio 60's v.1 (center is v.2) in front, while I have 4 studio 20's in back. They still sound good to me and just wondering if there has been some major improvements/differences in sound....these things are bullet-proof!

The monitor series has come light years since ver.1, In fact, they are up to series ver.5!!!

If you haven't been told, analog TV is no more and U.S. has placed men on the moon!:D

Among the best value in the Paradigm line is the Mini monitors and the Atom units. The Siggie line is in a class beyond the rest, but comes up against extremely tough going in their price point against several other outstanding speaker companies. The Paradigm subs don't equal those of SVS, AV123, REL or JB labs.

It may be time for you to experience the sonic improvements Paradigm had made.;)

[QUOTE=ginovino;17621460]The monitor series has come light years since ver.1, In fact, they are up to series ver.5!!!

QUOTE]

monitor line version 6
studio line version 5
signature line version 3

[QUOTE=ginovino;17621460]The monitor series has come light years since ver.1, In fact, they are up to series ver.5!!!

QUOTE]

monitor line version 6
studio line version 5
signature line version 3


:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Duly noted!

Though you know where I was coming from;)

Does anyone have any recommendations on what a Seismic 12 is worth 2 years old in good condition?

I believe it would be a huge upgrade for me from the PS1000 I have but I'm trying to find the value and there isn't much history to go off of.

I really don't care about size, so I'm hoping I'm not paying a premium for the smaller form factor in the Seismic 12.
Should I have any concerns running it on the same circuit as my AVR and other electronics? It's 1500 watts RMS is a huge jump from where I'm currently at.

The 1,500 watts is a concern. I don't know for sure, but I've heard several that run a dedicated 20A clean circuit for the sub. Even if it doesn't "trip" the breaker, it can drop voltage on your amp/avr on big hits.

The 1,500 watts is a concern. I don't know for sure, but I've heard several that run a dedicated 20A clean circuit for the sub. Even if it doesn't "trip" the breaker, it can drop voltage on your amp/avr on big hits.


Nothing to worry about with that puny little sub's amp power, you could run it off 15amp circuit with various other items as well....

I'm running 2 - 4000w pro amps for my 18" Subs off a single 20 amp circuit with no ill effects... :D

Does anyone have any recommendations on what a Seismic 12 is worth 2 years old in good condition?

I believe it would be a huge upgrade for me from the PS1000 I have but I'm trying to find the value and there isn't much history to go off of.

I really don't care about size, so I'm hoping I'm not paying a premium for the smaller form factor in the Seismic 12.
Should I have any concerns running it on the same circuit as my AVR and other electronics? It's 1500 watts RMS is a huge jump from where I'm currently at.

Probably 50% - 60% less than current retail.

The Seismic 12 is an amazing small sub, I used to own it before I built my dedicated room with an IB sub. The Seismic will play a lot lower and louder than the PS1000, it's a house shaker for sure, excellent for HT.

I ran it on the same 15amp circuit as the rest of my gear and it wasn't a problem.

what are the dimensions of that room?

the dimensions of my room is 16 ft wide, 22 ft long, and 8 ft ceiling.....

Does anyone have any recommendations on what a Seismic 12 is worth 2 years old in good condition?

I believe it would be a huge upgrade for me from the PS1000 I have but I'm trying to find the value and there isn't much history to go off of.

I really don't care about size, so I'm hoping I'm not paying a premium for the smaller form factor in the Seismic 12.
Should I have any concerns running it on the same circuit as my AVR and other electronics? It's 1500 watts RMS is a huge jump from where I'm currently at.

You're definitely paying a premium for the form factor of the Seismic. If it's for HT use, for the $1,000 a used 12 is going for you can probably pick up a ported larger sub for the same amount and it will most likely go lower with less distortion (at higher SPLs).

Post in the Subwoofer forum and they could probably help you out there.

The Seismic from what I've read is a great subwoofer for its size though.

You're definitely paying a premium for the form factor of the Seismic. If it's for HT use, for the $1,000 a used 12 is going for you can probably pick up a ported larger sub for the same amount and it will most likely go lower with less distortion (at higher SPLs).

Post in the Subwoofer forum and they could probably help you out there.

The Seismic from what I've read is a great subwoofer for its size though.

It'll go down to 14hz and is very accurate, quite the unit actually. I realize it's a Paradigm thread, but I'd be looking at a Rythmik Audio sealed servo for accuracy, and it's cheaper than a used Seismic.
The down-firing of the Seismic is awesome for HT, it really activates the floor.

bucket
I have the anthem a2 and a5 amps I think they are awesome.

chester

Interesting posts regarding the Seismic 12.

I'm in the basement so I don't think the floor can be activated too much.

So when talking about used subs, or even new... would you say the Seismic 12 is a good deal at $800 or would you prefer to go with a different sub in that price range. (Assuming size is not an issue)

Interesting posts regarding the Seismic 12.

I'm in the basement so I don't think the floor can be activated too much.

So when talking about used subs, or even new... would you say the Seismic 12 is a good deal at $800 or would you prefer to go with a different sub in that price range. (Assuming size is not an issue)

If size is not an issue, there are plenty of ID (Internet Direct) subs that I believe will outperform the Seismic.

A few examples of some fine subs:

Sealed
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_138&products_id=640

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/subs/f15.html

Pretty much anything from here...

http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/products.html


At 100db and 20hz, the Seismic has over 100% THD (all you're hearing is distortion). At 25hz and 100db it shows 52% THD, at 30 it finally drops down to 12%. Anything under 10% is considered inaudible. Note, these are old (2004) tests so they may have improved this sub since.

So from 30hz up that is a fantastic sub, but it seems to struggle at high SPL in the lower region (30hz and under).

Like I said, if size is not a concern, the Seismic 12 while a powerhouse of a small sub loses ground when compared to many Internet Direct ported subs in the $800 to $1000 range. Still a pretty darn good deal at $800 I guess.

If you can stretch your budget a bit, get two of these (free shipping right now)

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfmEX.html

YMMV

I'm looking to add to my home theatre setup...
I currently have Studio 60s v5 up front that are running from a Denon 3808 receiver.

I want to add the centre channel (studio CC-690) and sub-woofer.
I am leaning more toward the Studio Sub 12 over the 15.
Is there really big difference between the two?

I am also looking at the in-ceiling speakers (SA-15R-SM). I will use these as my rear channel speakers.
Will surround sound be compromised a lot going with in-ceiling speakers versus having floor/wall rear speakers?

Also, could in-ceiling speakers be used to complete a 7.1 setup (ie. have 2 fronts, centre, sub, 2 rear speakers, and 2 in-ceiling) or would it not have the same effect as having speakers on the side?

Thanks for your response.

Mark

I want to add the centre channel (studio CC-690) and sub-woofer.
I am leaning more toward the Studio Sub 12 over the 15.
Is there really big difference between the two?


Mark

Personally, I'd go with the Sub15 and get the less expensive CC590 (if that is the reason you're leaning towards the Sub12 vs the Sub15). Or skip the additional 2 rears/surrounds and get the Sub15.

The Sub15 looks to be quite an incredible sub in IMO getting the biggest/best sub you can is the way to go with HT (esp. in this case as I don't believe you're sacrificing much other than low end on the CC590 vs CC690 and given you'll likely cross over at 80hz you don't need the extra depth the CC690 will give you).

Go with the 290.
I have/had the 190 and while nice was somewhat lacking as a center. The dialogue was a bit muddy and too low at times regardless of adjustments. I replaced it with the 290 and the difference was very impressive. Dialogue is much better and I'm very happy with its' overall performance.


Thanks Kai. The 290 it is then. I have seen some really good deals on used ones on audiogon and even ebay. I will post when I get it and have some time to listen to it. Great thread here, everyone has been very helpful.:D

At 100db and 20hz, the Seismic has over 100% THD (all you're hearing is distortion). At 25hz and 100db it shows 52% THD, at 30 it finally drops down to 12%. Anything under 10% is considered inaudible. Note, these are old (2004) tests so they may have improved this sub since.

So from 30hz up that is a fantastic sub, but it seems to struggle at high SPL in the lower region (30hz and under).

YMMV

100db is getting up there, but I guess a valid test for a sub.

Distortion isn't always a bad thing because it gives bass a bit more "impact" in that range, which is why I said it's good for HT, and for music there's not a lot that gets below 30hz unless you listen to pipe organs...

I doubt it was improved, since I think it met its design goals. I can't think of too many tiny subs able to put out reasonable SPL at 14hz, distortion or not.

You're absolutely right though, if size isn't an issue there's definitely better options than the Seismic and internet direct companies have kind of carved a niche...

100db is getting up there, but I guess a valid test for a sub.

Distortion isn't always a bad thing because it gives bass a bit more "impact" in that range, which is why I said it's good for HT, and for music there's not a lot that gets below 30hz unless you listen to pipe organs...

I doubt it was improved, since I think it met its design goals. I can't think of too many tiny subs able to put out reasonable SPL at 14hz, distortion or not.

You're absolutely right though, if size isn't an issue there's definitely better options than the Seismic and internet direct companies have kind of carved a niche...

Agreed. I used to own a Mirage OM200 (dual 8" ported sub) which was incredible for music. For HT it had a lot of distortion under 30hz at decent levels (say over 80db). I recall when I purchased my PB13 Ultra that I thought "odd, this seems less loud with the low stuff though I can feel it a lot more in my sinuses :D"!

Took a bit of time to get used to, but now when I hear distortion in a sub I think "Oh god, turn that thing down please before the sub ... or my ears ... break(s)!" :)

BTW, another great used option in the $800 range if the OP does want to stick to Paradigm is the Servo 15va (original version). A bit long in the tooth and I still think you can do better in the $800 to $1000 range, but that puppy will outperform the Seismic from an ouput and likely SQ perspective.

Note, when I say "outperform", the Seismic is such a good sub from what I've read that you'll not notice a "night and day" difference unless you put it side by side with a much larger (and good quality) sub in the same room.

i would get the studio 10's with a nice sub. you can always move the 10's for surrounds in the future

Thanks for your suggestion. I've been thinking that rather than pour money into nice stands for the 10s, and a sub I'd rather just put that money towards getting some 60s instead and just call it good.

I'm looking at upgrading my receiver since mine is almost 10 years old. I have Monitor Series speakers ( 7, cc-370, adp-370, ps-1200). Just curious as to what others are using. I have been out of the loop so looking for opinions. I will have around $600 to spend could possibly stretch that to 700. Thanks!

Agreed. I used to own a Mirage OM200 (dual 8" ported sub) which was incredible for music. For HT it had a lot of distortion under 30hz at decent levels (say over 80db). I recall when I purchased my PB13 Ultra that I thought "odd, this seems less loud with the low stuff though I can feel it a lot more in my sinuses :D"!

Took a bit of time to get used to, but now when I hear distortion in a sub I think "Oh god, turn that thing down please before the sub ... or my ears ... break(s)!" :)

BTW, another great used option in the $800 range if the OP does want to stick to Paradigm is the Servo 15va (original version). A bit long in the tooth and I still think you can do better in the $800 to $1000 range, but that puppy will outperform the Seismic from an ouput and likely SQ perspective.

Note, when I say "outperform", the Seismic is such a good sub from what I've read that you'll not notice a "night and day" difference unless you put it side by side with a much larger (and good quality) sub in the same room.

Thanks for the input and the options... I'm definitely intrigued and will continue looking. The president of SVS used to live in my city and recently mvoed and they are selling many used SVS subwoofers... so I'm hoping to possibly get a good deal out of that. Being mainly for HT, would these be a good option? If so any models I should look for in particular?

Thanks!

Thanks for the input and the options... I'm definitely intrigued and will continue looking. The president of SVS used to live in my city and recently mvoed and they are selling many used SVS subwoofers... so I'm hoping to possibly get a good deal out of that. Being mainly for HT, would these be a good option? If so any models I should look for in particular?

Thanks!

Well, if size isn't a problem get the biggest mo-fo they make!! :p

I don't know their line up that well, but I've read good things about them. If you tell them what you're after re usage, and the size of your room, they'll steer you in the right direction.

I hope you have a good relationship with your neighbors! ;)

hahaha... so far not too much sound escapes form the basement! I'll have to kepe my ears on it though.

I'm looking at upgrading my receiver since mine is almost 10 years old. I have Monitor Series speakers ( 7, cc-370, adp-370, ps-1200). Just curious as to what others are using. I have been out of the loop so looking for opinions. I will have around $600 to spend could possibly stretch that to 700. Thanks!

There's two areas of significant improvements in receivers in recent years, one is the improved quality of their HDMI implementation since the addition of the new "hi-rez" decoding.
The second, and I believe most significant, is the advancements in room correction software available. I would invest in a Blu Ray player if you haven't already, and from there any receiver with Audyssey's MultEQ platform (or higher) room correction on board would be a good start for the hunt.

I've waited too long to post pics. Studio 100's v5 with cc590 center :

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/2481/edit8395.jpg

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1935/edit8389.jpg

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/2226/edit8385modifiedcustom.jpg

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1935/edit8389.jpg

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3485/edit83747modified.jpg

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/9199/edit8375modified.jpg

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/8462/edit8379.jpg

The system is still a work in progress. I need to get the dipole surrounds and then a couple of subwoofers. Of course, there is no replacement for displacement. :cool:

Regards,

Very nice stuff!! ^

How's the sound with the wood floor??

Goneten:

Beautiful set up and terrific pictures. ..You obviously know you're way around a camera!

Personally, I'd go with the Sub15 and get the less expensive CC590 (if that is the reason you're leaning towards the Sub12 vs the Sub15). Or skip the additional 2 rears/surrounds and get the Sub15.

The Sub15 looks to be quite an incredible sub in IMO getting the biggest/best sub you can is the way to go with HT (esp. in this case as I don't believe you're sacrificing much other than low end on the CC590 vs CC690 and given you'll likely cross over at 80hz you don't need the extra depth the CC690 will give you).

Thanks for the advice, I will definately take this into consideration.

I called my dealer and they said that I can get the CC690 and Sub 12 for $3900 CDN less 20%, so it would work out to be about $3100 for both. Did the MSRP go up during the year?

Based on 20% off the last list price for these speakers I calculate I should be around $2800.

Nice pics there for sure...

Couple of things I'm sure a number of people would suggest...

Looks like you have quite a large amount of toe in there, placement looks good - you might get better imaging with less toe in.

Also the center channel is pretty high and aiming upwards... try putting some shims under the back of the feet to aim it lower towards ear height...

Room treatements and maybe some area rugs to deaden the room would be helpful with echo.... Looks like you have a floor to ceiling type treatment in the corners, thats good.

Wow ... those are awesome pictures! Do that for a living?

Thanks for the advice, I will definately take this into consideration.

I called my dealer and they said that I can get the CC690 and Sub 12 for $3900 CDN less 20%, so it would work out to be about $3100 for both. Did the MSRP go up during the year?

Based on 20% off the last list price for these speakers I calculate I should be around $2800.

MSRP appears to be:

CC690 - C$1,649
Sub12 - C$2,299

CC590 - C$1,399
Suvb15 - C$3,199

You should be able to get closer to 25% off at least, if not 30 by shopping around enough.

Nice pics goneten, congrats. Paradigm speakers not only sound great, they are also beautiful look at. I never get tired of seeing the pics posted on this thread.

Thanks guys for the comments, I appreciate it.

Looks like you have quite a large amount of toe in there, placement looks good - you might get better imaging with less toe in.

The speakers are placed too far apart, in my opinion, but that darn cabinet is in the way and I can't place the speakers in front of them. I've been warned already. However the toe in looks significant given that my couch has been moved out of the pic. So I'm sitting 2.5 meters away from the speakers but the shot was taken an extra 1 meter back which gives the impression of even more toe in.

Acoustic treatment is GIK tri-traps. I do have 244 traps for first reflections but I'm not allowed to use them, unfortunately. That will change, soon. :) So far I'm very happy with the sound. I sold my dual MFW-15 subwoofers so there is definitely some space for a brother or sister. :D

Regards,

Are Studio ADP-590's and Signature ADP3's considered dipole or tripole speakers?

Correct me if I'm wrong but dipoles have the same drivers oriented on two opposing sides, right? While these mentioned models have drivers on two opposing sides plus another side with a bass driver.

Has anyone auditioned the new Special Edition speaker line? I've read that they are quite impressive for their price, but I haven't been able to find them yet.

Kevin

Hi,

I contemplating a paradigm shift :). I'm currently running 10 year old B&W CDM 7SE/CSE across the front with DS6 on the sides. I recently acquired a Pio Elite 141FD and can't help but wonder how a Sig W5/W5 C combo would work across the front with Sig-ADP handling the sides. A piano black finish would be sick! Are there any Canadians using this configuration? How much of an audio compromise is a wall mounted speaker? I'm also wondering how much this would set me back. I'd like to explore the budgetary possiblities.

I'm sure this ensemble would be at the outer $$ limits, so extra amplification would have to wait awhile. I'm using a Pioneer Elite VSX-94TXH right now. I also have a Servo-15A, which is very capable.

Thanks in advance,
Ken

The W5C is $3,199 alone, and I think each side speaker would be about the same (don't see it on the site I'm looking at). ADP1's are $2699, ADP3's are $3399.

Note these are for cherry, piano black likely adds another $300 to $500 per speaker.

These are MSRPs. Can probably get 20 to 30% off if you wheel and deal. ;)

Are Studio ADP-590's and Signature ADP3's considered dipole or tripole speakers?

Correct me if I'm wrong but dipoles have the same drivers oriented on two opposing sides, right? While these mentioned models have drivers on two opposing sides plus another side with a bass driver.

ADP = Adaptive Di-Pole.

It's just a guess on my part, but I wouldn't be surprised if the bass driver was incorporated to help with directional cues when called for.

Has anyone auditioned the new Special Edition speaker line? I've read that they are quite impressive for their price, but I haven't been able to find them yet.

Kevin

Kevin,

I heard the SE 3's yesterday. I listened to a track demo CD the dealer had and then the a couple of tracks from the Beatles Love CD I brought.

I was very impressed! Great sounding speakers at a "low" price.

On the price... The price list I saw was at least $50 over the MSRP I've seen on these speakers floating around the net. Is that normal or should I shop around to other dealers?

MSRP appears to be:

CC690 - C$1,649
Sub12 - C$2,299

CC590 - C$1,399
Suvb15 - C$3,199

You should be able to get closer to 25% off at least, if not 30 by shopping around enough.


Thanks again for the response.

My guess is that MSRP must have gone up during the year as the list prices on bradfordshifi.com show as:

CC 590 $1199
CC 690 $1499

Sub 12 $1999
Sub 15 $2799

I did a dealer search for my area (Edmonton, Ab.) and unfortunately there is only one place, which is where I already purchased my denon 3808 and studio 60's so you would think I would have a bit more pull. Anyone else know of any Paradigm reference dealers in Alberta?

Thank you.

Hi,

I contemplating a paradigm shift :). I'm currently running 10 year old B&W CDM 7SE/CSE across the front with DS6 on the sides. I recently acquired a Pio Elite 141FD and can't help but wonder how a Sig W5/W5 C combo would work across the front with Sig-ADP handling the sides. A piano black finish would be sick! Are there any Canadians using this configuration? How much of an audio compromise is a wall mounted speaker? I'm also wondering how much this would set me back. I'd like to explore the budgetary possiblities.

I'm sure this ensemble would be at the outer $$ limits, so extra amplification would have to wait awhile. I'm using a Pioneer Elite VSX-94TXH right now. I also have a Servo-15A, which is very capable.

Thanks in advance,
Ken

Hello ken,

Take a look back in this thread, I posted pics of my setup. 3 W5's around my 60" Pioneer with ADP3 surrounds. It is a kick but setup, but like was stated, is pretty pricey. I think they are worth every penny though. :)

The nice part about the W5's is the wall bracket, you can tilt the speakers to accomodate your room. I have all of my speakers wit a 7 degree tilt and the soundstage is phenomenal.

Noah B

Thanks again for the response.

My guess is that MSRP must have gone up during the year as the list prices on bradfordshifi.com show as:

CC 590 $1199
CC 690 $1499

Sub 12 $1999
Sub 15 $2799

I did a dealer search for my area (Edmonton, Ab.) and unfortunately there is only one place, which is where I already purchased my denon 3808 and studio 60's so you would think I would have a bit more pull. Anyone else know of any Paradigm reference dealers in Alberta?

Thank you.

Maybe v3 vs v2? In any event, if you only have 1 dealer, it doesn't give you much of a bargaining chip! Nothing in Calgary (bit of a drive I guess!)?

Maybe v3 vs v2? In any event, if you only have 1 dealer, it doesn't give you much of a bargaining chip! Nothing in Calgary (bit of a drive I guess!)?


it says v5 on the list prices but I don't know how reliable this site is?
I would think there would be a dealer in Calgary and if its worth the drive or shipping then I would definately consider them as well.

Just recently started looking for some bookshelf speakers and started hunting around the city. What I'm looking for isn't even close to what you're after, but I saw some Paradigm floorstanders and bookshelf speakers at Sounds-of-Music (was there just under an hour ago in fact!): www.sounds-of-music.com
I think they might have what you are looking for, but I am not familiar with Paradigm/Reference models. I say definitely give them a call.

You can also try calling K & W Audio: www.kandwaudio.com
Not sure about them, but they are a HT A/V store in the city...

Pretty sure Loyalty Sound has no Paradigms, didn't see any when I was there 30 mins ago, but you could try them: www.loyaltysound.com

All of those stores are in Calgary.

There are others that I didn't list because they definitely don't have what you want. I can't remember if the local Soundsaround had more Paradigm stuff than just what I saw (Monitors).

General Audio near the Chinook C-Train station is also an authorized Reference dealer.

http://www.general-audio.com/

I was there a few weeks ago wanting to listen to some Reference Signature speakers but they didn't have any. I asked about a SUB2, and the salesman said if I ordered one he would personally set it up and test it out of course. He also said if 9000 watts is not enough why not order a pair of them. :)

I think Sounds of Music has a better selection of Paradigm demo speakers. I would go there first.

Hi guys. I'm picking up a new pair of piano black S8's v.3 today. Paid $6300 out the door (too much?). Anyway, i'll post pics when i get them home and set up. I have a pair of v.1's in cherry and will be curious to see how they compare.

Hi guys. I'm picking up a new pair of piano black S8's v.3 today. Paid $6300 out the door (too much?). Anyway, i'll post pics when i get them home and set up. I have a pair of v.1's in cherry and will be curious to see how they compare.

Wonderful purchase! Congrats!
Do post back with more info and impressions.

Hi guys. I'm picking up a new pair of piano black S8's v.3 today. Paid $6300 out the door (too much?). Anyway, i'll post pics when i get them home and set up. I have a pair of v.1's in cherry and will be curious to see how they compare.

Welcome to the club! You will notice an improvement for sure, I certainly did going from the S4 v.1's. It's hard to quantify because the S4's were no slouches, but you'll see what I mean when they open up. I keep coming back to the same analogy to describe improvements in my rig, and that is it's more natural sounding... with the S8's I find it's very evident in the treble and mid-bass.

Hi guys...
I purchased a pair of Studio 60's v4 and a CC690 v4. The center channel arrived with a defective driver that has finally been repaired. The 60's were damaged by the freight company, one looks perfect and one is ugly, they function perfectly however. The freight company has finally agreed to pick up the speakers (60's) and refund all costs. I'm happy with what I hear but having the speakers 2-3 feet from the wall is not a great visual. I'm considering doing either S-2's or studio 20's to keep them closer to the wall. I currently use a HSU VTF3 Mk3 sub, Ascend surrounds and a Pioneer SC27
AVR. I'm open to other suggestions... Thanks! Dave

Pics...opinions to follow.

v.1

159834

v.3

159831

159832

Pics...opinions to follow.

v.1

v.3


Ahh, I misread your post, for some reason I though you were going from the S2 v.1's to S8 v.3's...

This will be an interesting comparison to say the least, looking forward to reading your opinions.

Very nice.... enjoy the upgrade. Dave

Hello All,
I am hoping some one could tell me how I could advertise my millenia 20's in piano black for sale on the forum sales post?

chester

I'm happy with what I hear but having the speakers 2-3 feet from the wall is not a great visual. I'm considering doing either S-2's or studio 20's to keep them closer to the wall. I currently use a HSU VTF3 Mk3 sub, Ascend surrounds and a Pioneer SC27
AVR. I'm open to other suggestions... Thanks! Dave

Well I'd try to move them back for aesthetics, toe them in or out for best imaging and let the room EQ handle getting the bass right and see if that floats your boat before downsizing to monitors.
The front of the speakers is what's important, they shouldn't be the same distance from the side wall as they are from the back wall if that can be avoided. (In case you didn't already know that.)

Pics...opinions to follow.

v.1

159834

v.3

159831

159832

Sweet. Beautiful setup! Thanks for posting..

I wish. ;)

Goneten:

Beautiful set up and terrific pictures. ..You obviously know you're way around a camera!

Nice pics there for sure...

Wow ... those are awesome pictures! Do that for a living?

Nice pics goneten, congrats.

Thanks for the compliments, guys. :)

Pics...opinions to follow.

v.1

159834

v.3

159831

159832

Looks like you went from one side of the room to the other with your setup. Where'd the Servo go?

Thanks for the compliments, guys. :)

I'll bite ... did you take these pics I guess?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=159832is that a studio 690?

I'll bite ... did you take these pics I guess?

Yup.

Looks like you went from one side of the room to the other with your setup. Where'd the Servo go?

I have 2 different setups. 1 up, 1 downstairs. The cherry servo is downstairs (but there is a piano black servo upstairs that is not pictured).

is that a studio 690?

It is. I'm too broke now to afford a C5.

I currently have an aged Paradigm 5.1 setup and am looking to upgrade it to 9.1. My current set up is:

Fronts: Titan v2
Center: CC-170 v2
Surrounds: ADP-170 v2
Sub: PDR-12


I've been trying to find used Titan or Atom v2 for the width and rear speakers, but new Micro's V3 are easier to find and seem to be a similar match to my titans. How far off are the v3 micros from the v2's?

Thanks!!

wont the S8s simply outperform the CC-690? how do they sound together?

Yup.

Mind if I ask what camera/settings used? (PM me if you could as this may be a tad offtopic for the Paradigm thread! :D )

I have 2 different setups. 1 up, 1 downstairs. The cherry servo is downstairs (but there is a piano black servo upstairs that is not pictured).



It is. I'm too broke now to afford a C5.

If I had two different Sig S8 setups, I'd be too broke to have a home to put them in. :p

wont the S8s simply outperform the CC-690? how do they sound together?

They actually voice match pretty well.

Mind if I ask what camera/settings used? (PM me if you could as this may be a tad offtopic for the Paradigm thread! :D )if you look in goneten post above he took better pictures of his studio series.

I'd like to get a feel for peoples feelings regarding the new SUB15 vs the now discontinued Signature Servo. There are still a lot of Signature Servo's out there and they seem to be selling for about the same price or a little less than the SUB15. Has anyone compared these? The PBK integration with the SUB15 should be a definite advantage. How about output? Quality?

Also, probably out of my price range, but how does the SUB25 compare? I have signature speakers, so the matching look would be nice, but I'm more concerned with the sound.

I'd like to get a feel for peoples feelings regarding the new SUB15 vs the now discontinued Signature Servo. There are still a lot of Signature Servo's out there and they seem to be selling for about the same price or a little less than the SUB15. Has anyone compared these? The PBK integration with the SUB15 should be a definite advantage. How about output? Quality?

Also, probably out of my price range, but how does the SUB25 compare? I have signature speakers, so the matching look would be nice, but I'm more concerned with the sound.

the sub15 has 1700w rms vs. servo 1500w rms
the servo has a voice coil vs. no voice coil for the sub 15
the servo LFE 10hz vs. the sub 15 12hz

the sub 25 is the S@!T

Thank you all.

"`the servo has a voice coil vs. no voice coil for the sub 15"

Ahhh not sure any driver would ever work if it didn't have a voice coil...

The Signature Servo is basically a regular paradigm 15" servo sub with a pretty cabinet, they are pretty darn good subs, but are dated and you could do better now that numerous companies have updated their product lines.

The Sub 15 is the new medium priced line for Paradigm and has had some really good reviews, but personally if its not totally important in the looks and matching dept, I would look at a Seaton Submersive, for the price, you will easily get more bang for the buck, more output, better design - dual opposed 15" drivers. I would put that up against the Sub 25 any day of the week, they are just that good. I have seen and heard the Submersive first hand - very impressive. You could buy 2 Submersives for the price of a Sub 25...

I built my own subs that will out perform any of these listed, but they were expensive and thats what I was after... 3 x 18" sealed LMS's 4000w each. WICKED !!

The Sub 15 is the new medium priced line for Paradigm and has had some really good reviews, but personally if its not totally important in the looks and matching dept, I would look at a Seaton Submersive, for the price, you will easily get more bang for the buck, more output, better design - dual opposed 15" drivers.

Or the other "servo controlled" option is Rythmik Audio's 15" sealed unit for 1/3 the price or less. I built a pair of their 12" servos that were excellent and ruler flat down to 14hz.

I have a pair of Studio 20's (V3) Even after 3 years of ownership I still think they are terrific speakers.
However I see the new version 5's have a new cabinet and improved drivers.
My question is... is it worthwhile to upgrade to version 5? Would it be better to buy the new 490 center?

What about the signature series?

Unless the reasons are compelling I would like to stay with a stand mounted speaker.

You could buy 2 Submersives for the price of a Sub 25...


Not necessarily true, unless you pay full retail for the Sub 25...

Btw, have you compared the Submersive directly with any of the new Paradigm Studio/Signature offerings? They really are very good performers. I think many people here may be dismissing them based on past offerings.

"`the servo has a voice coil vs. no voice coil for the sub 15"

Ahhh not sure any driver would ever work if it didn't have a voice coil...

The Signature Servo is basically a regular paradigm 15" servo sub with a pretty cabinet, they are pretty darn good subs, but are dated and you could do better now that numerous companies have updated their product lines.

The Sub 15 is the new medium priced line for Paradigm and has had some really good reviews, but personally if its not totally important in the looks and matching dept, I would look at a Seaton Submersive, for the price, you will easily get more bang for the buck, more output, better design - dual opposed 15" drivers. I would put that up against the Sub 25 any day of the week, they are just that good. I have seen and heard the Submersive first hand - very impressive. You could buy 2 Submersives for the price of a Sub 25...

I built my own subs that will out perform any of these listed, but they were expensive and thats what I was after... 3 x 18" sealed LMS's 4000w each. WICKED !!

I am looking at these models because I am somewhat limited in size. I actually have a Rythmik F15 and feel that it has excellent sound quality, but is a bit lacking in output. I thought one of these Paradigms might equal the sound quality and have higer output due to the larger amps. I would be adding this as a second subwoofer. I am also considering just getting another Rythmik, but I worry that I still might want more output, but don't want more than 2 subs.

edit// I just took another look at the submersive and its not quite as big as I thought. I may have to look into it some more.//

On another note, Warpdrv, I noticed that you are now using S8's and an Anthem D2. What are you using as your source for music? Are you using the DACs in the D2? Have you ever tried an external DAC for comparison?

I currently have a Denon 2809 and a Parasound 2100 preamp with HT pass through and PS Audio DAC. I am considering an Anthem D2 to replace all of these pieces but don't know if the 2 channel sound quality would equal that of the PS Audio DAC > Parasound Preamp. The reason I am looking at this is to reduce the clutter and amount of boxes, and to get better sub integration. I have S2's and the Rythmik F15 (previously 2 F12's) and use an SMS-1 to blend them, but have never been completely happy with the results. I feel part of the problem may be the delay introduced by any sub eq and the SMS-1 is one of the best as far as that goes. With the 2 channel analog preamp there is no way to compensate for this.

I saw in another post that this is why you decided to get the Anthem. Are you happy with the results?

Or the other "servo controlled" option is Rythmik Audio's 15" sealed unit for 1/3 the price or less. I built a pair of their 12" servos that were excellent and ruler flat down to 14hz.

I do like the Rythmiks... they offer very good clean bass...
Not as much amp power or excursion with them, so they won't hit the higher SPL's, but if that is not a requirement - they are excellent subs, I wouldn't hesitate to buy them...


Not necessarily true, unless you pay full retail for the Sub 25...

Btw, have you compared the Submersive directly with any of the new Paradigm Studio/Signature offerings? They really are very good performers. I think many people here may be dismissing them based on past offerings.

YMMV of coarse, but I would still choose 2 submersives for a little more money, and your getting Dual high output, extremely clean sounding subs compared to a single sub 25, how about you price duals against duals...

I haven't heard/felt the new Sub 15 or 25, I'm sure they are spectacular but you can find more bang for the buck for sure... I got 4 drivers, 4 amps and built my own cabs for less then it would cost for a pair of Sub 25's.... thats for sure... And there is no question in my mind 1-1 they offer more output, better SQ and will dig deeper then the Sub 25's.

would this set up be a good (In terms of timber matching and sound quality) set up?

Fronts Sig S6s
Centre CC-690
Surrounds ADP 590
Surround backs Studio 20s

or would the Sigs outclass the rest of the system? P.S there will be 2 HSU ULS15s in the mix for the low end.

Not necessarily true, unless you pay full retail for the Sub 25...

Btw, have you compared the Submersive directly with any of the new Paradigm Studio/Signature offerings? They really are very good performers. I think many people here may be dismissing them based on past offerings.

I don't think any of their subs are being dismissed. But for some reason this seems to be a product area where Paradigm doesn't meet the same value/performance ratio as their other offerings. Most of their stuff will compete with products twice the price or more but that can't be said with thier subs, and it's not that they're bad by any stretch.

On another note, Warpdrv, I noticed that you are now using S8's and an Anthem D2. What are you using as your source for music? Are you using the DACs in the D2? Have you ever tried an external DAC for comparison?

I currently have a Denon 2809 and a Parasound 2100 preamp with HT pass through and PS Audio DAC. I am considering an Anthem D2 to replace all of these pieces but don't know if the 2 channel sound quality would equal that of the PS Audio DAC > Parasound Preamp. The reason I am looking at this is to reduce the clutter and amount of boxes, and to get better sub integration. I have S2's and the Rythmik F15 (previously 2 F12's) and use an SMS-1 to blend them, but have never been completely happy with the results. I feel part of the problem may be the delay introduced by any sub eq and the SMS-1 is one of the best as far as that goes. With the 2 channel analog preamp there is no way to compensate for this.

I saw in another post that this is why you decided to get the Anthem. Are you happy with the results?

Not stepping on Warp's toes here, but an educated guess would be yes, and I'd go so far as to add the Denon AVP A1HD as a consideration for your front end. Both the AVP with Audyssey Pro and the Anthem with its' ARC will do a much better job than the SMS-1, and that benefit will be greater than any potential loss/benefit of using a two channel pre-amp or external DAC.
IMO!

Not stepping on Warp's toes here, but an educated guess would be yes, and I'd go so far as to add the Denon AVP A1HD as a consideration for your front end. Both the AVP with Audyssey Pro and the Anthem with its' ARC will do a much better job than the SMS-1, and that benefit will be greater than any potential loss/benefit of using a two channel pre-amp or external DAC.
IMO!


I wish the Audessey Pro was a kit you could adjust yourself like Anthem's ARC. I don't want to pay a dealer to do it, and I like to tinker and adjust as I change things in my system. This is a big plus of the ARC system.

I wish the Audessey Pro was a kit you could adjust yourself like Anthem's ARC. I don't want to pay a dealer to do it, and I like to tinker and adjust as I change things in my system. This is a big plus of the ARC system.

You could purchase the Audyssey Pro kit and learn to tweak the system yourself. Don't have to go through an installer.

I am looking to add to my home theatre setup and would like advice so I can make a good, informed decision. I already have 2 v5 Studio 60's up front powered by a 3808 Denon receiver. My home theatre area is in the basement and is about 15' wide X 35' long, 8' t-bar ceiling. I have a 110" projector screen on the wall and have the couch about 12' back of the screen.

1) I am looking to add a centre channel and sub woofer. My original thought was to get the Studio CC-690 and Sub 12 but someone said it might be better to get the Sub 15 and CC-590 instead. Based on my current setup and receiver, would the Sub 15 be overkill or would it be better to get a bigger sub and sacrifice the centre speaker?

2) How are in-ceiling speakers in terms of adding to surround sound? I was thinking of going with these instead of getting floor speakers (Studio 20s) for the rear channel.

Thanks for your advice.

Mark

You could purchase the Audyssey Pro kit and learn to tweak the system yourself. Don't have to go through an installer.

Getting your hands on one can be a PIA though. Definitely advantage ARC.

Although I have the ability to do my own target curves with the Pro software I really haven't found the need. I'm very happy with the results, I use the Audyssey curve for multi channel and the "Flat" setting for 2 channel music.

would this set up be a good (In terms of timber matching and sound quality) set up?

Fronts Sig S6s
Centre CC-690
Surrounds ADP 590
Surround backs Studio 20s

or would the Sigs outclass the rest of the system? P.S there will be 2 HSU ULS15s in the mix for the low end.

In my second system I run Studio ADP's with my Sig .v1's, and I'm more then happy with that setup... Personally I would see if you could get a solid Sig front 3 if I were you... In fact, when I got my S8's .v3, I got a C5 .v2 and S2's .v2 to save some money - its perfect... got the 8's new, but the rest off Audiogon... Side surrounds to match only if you plan 5.1 music and rear surrounds are less necessary to match, just get something to fill.... my rears are Infinity's and I'm more then happy - just good enough for the ambiance back there :)



On another note, Warpdrv, I noticed that you are now using S8's and an Anthem D2. What are you using as your source for music? Are you using the DACs in the D2? Have you ever tried an external DAC for comparison?

I currently have a Denon 2809 and a Parasound 2100 preamp with HT pass through and PS Audio DAC. I am considering an Anthem D2 to replace all of these pieces but don't know if the 2 channel sound quality would equal that of the PS Audio DAC > Parasound Preamp. The reason I am looking at this is to reduce the clutter and amount of boxes, and to get better sub integration. I have S2's and the Rythmik F15 (previously 2 F12's) and use an SMS-1 to blend them, but have never been completely happy with the results. I feel part of the problem may be the delay introduced by any sub eq and the SMS-1 is one of the best as far as that goes. With the 2 channel analog preamp there is no way to compensate for this.

I saw in another post that this is why you decided to get the Anthem. Are you happy with the results?

My buddy is coming over on tuesday to help me install my DCX 2496 to integrate all 4 of my subs into my system, he is going to bring the PS Audio DAC and we are going to throw that into the mix and see how things sound, if there is a difference - better or worse... I can honestly say that I am thrilled with the DACs thus far in the D2v, music has never sounded so good for me...

I really have no complaints... Anthem's ARC has done wonders in my room.... It is not all that adjustable, pretty much all you can adjust is how high it works its correction in the hz range... and have separate measurements for a 2 channel setup as well. What it does do for you is show your response for every speaker and allow you to make adjustments and corrections to placement, once you get that locked down it will EQ each speaker pretty much to perfect response.

I would suggest against using a SMS-1 for 2 sub integration personally, you can't work each sub individually, but to each their own...

I don't think any of their subs are being dismissed. But for some reason this seems to be a product area where Paradigm doesn't meet the same value/performance ratio as their other offerings. Most of their stuff will compete with products twice the price or more but that can't be said with thier subs, and it's not that they're bad by any stretch.

That's quite the bold statement right there... I take it you've done all the necessary side by side comparisons in your own home to back up these claims.

Here is a bit of an idea of where I'm coming from with all of this. On my recent quest to upgrade my HT speakers, I stopped by my local Paradigm reference dealer to audition the new Studio v5's. No lie, it was the most craptacular audition of speakers I've ever had. I would describe the sound as very thin and hollow, with a total lack of definition, and no bass. Based on my research, the Studio series had been number one on my list. And, when I saw they had the system setup in a dedicated room, with the identical AVR and sub combo I'm using at home, I thought fantastic! You would think that would give me a solid starting point for comparison, well I couldn't have been more wrong. If I had left that shop thinking that was an accurate representation of Paradigm performance, I would have never given them another moment of thought ever again. Anyway, because of how impressive my Sub 12 is at home, and now dual Sub 12's, I figured something must be out of whack. I didn't end up with Studio's, I actually went for the Sig's instead, and they have been fantastic in my HT.:D

It's almost impossible to accurately gage "value/performance ratios" of speakers and subs when you audition them at different times and in different locations.

I am looking to add to my home theatre setup and would like advice so I can make a good, informed decision. I already have 2 v5 Studio 60's up front powered by a 3808 Denon receiver. My home theatre area is in the basement and is about 15' wide X 35' long, 8' t-bar ceiling. I have a 110" projector screen on the wall and have the couch about 12' back of the screen.

1) I am looking to add a centre channel and sub woofer. My original thought was to get the Studio CC-690 and Sub 12 but someone said it might be better to get the Sub 15 and CC-590 instead. Based on my current setup and receiver, would the Sub 15 be overkill or would it be better to get a bigger sub and sacrifice the centre speaker?

2) How are in-ceiling speakers in terms of adding to surround sound? I was thinking of going with these instead of getting floor speakers (Studio 20s) for the rear channel.

Thanks for your advice.

Markthe center channel speaker is the most important speaker.

That's quite the bold statement right there... I take it you've done all the necessary side by side comparisons in your own home to back up these claims.

Here is a bit of an idea of where I'm coming from with all of this. On my recent quest to upgrade my HT speakers, I stopped by my local Paradigm reference dealer to audition the new Studio v5's. No lie, it was the most craptacular audition of speakers I've ever had. I would describe the sound as very thin and hollow, with a total lack of definition, and no bass. Based on my research, the Studio series had been number one on my list. And, when I saw they had the system setup in a dedicated room, with the identical AVR and sub combo I'm using at home, I thought fantastic! You would think that would give me a solid starting point for comparison, well I couldn't have been more wrong. If I had left that shop thinking that was an accurate representation of Paradigm performance, I would have never given them another moment of thought ever again. Anyway, because of how impressive my Sub 12 is at home, and now dual Sub 12's, I figured something must be out of whack. I didn't end up with Studio's, I actually went for the Sig's instead, and they have been fantastic in my HT.:D

It's almost impossible to accurately gage "value/performance ratios" of speakers and subs when you audition them at different times and in different locations.


That is what objective measurements are for. We can't account for what a room is going to do to a speakers performance, but we CAN have an idea of what their presentation is going to be like by looking at their response.

Subs are much easier in that literally every aspect of their performance can be measured while speakers we will never know how they image or what kind of soundstage they throw without hearing them (only an idea of these things anyway). When it comes to subs, physics cannot be cheated. A larger driver/cabinet will outperform a similarly sized driver in a smaller cabinet regardless of how much power you throw at it.

That's quite the bold statement right there... I take it you've done all the necessary side by side comparisons in your own home to back up these claims.

Here is a bit of an idea of where I'm coming from with all of this. On my recent quest to upgrade my HT speakers, I stopped by my local Paradigm reference dealer to audition the new Studio v5's. No lie, it was the most craptacular audition of speakers I've ever had. I would describe the sound as very thin and hollow, with a total lack of definition, and no bass. Based on my research, the Studio series had been number one on my list. And, when I saw they had the system setup in a dedicated room, with the identical AVR and sub combo I'm using at home, I thought fantastic! You would think that would give me a solid starting point for comparison, well I couldn't have been more wrong. If I had left that shop thinking that was an accurate representation of Paradigm performance, I would have never given them another moment of thought ever again. Anyway, because of how impressive my Sub 12 is at home, and now dual Sub 12's, I figured something must be out of whack. I didn't end up with Studio's, I actually went for the Sig's instead, and they have been fantastic in my HT.:D

It's almost impossible to accurately gage "value/performance ratios" of speakers and subs when you audition them at different times and in different locations.

i know this is away from what you are saying but from what you said can i infer that you think the Studio line is crappy and not a good speaker or not worth the money?

That's quite the bold statement right there... I take it you've done all the necessary side by side comparisons in your own home to back up these claims.

Here is a bit of an idea of where I'm coming from with all of this. On my recent quest to upgrade my HT speakers, I stopped by my local Paradigm reference dealer to audition the new Studio v5's. No lie, it was the most craptacular audition of speakers I've ever had. I would describe the sound as very thin and hollow, with a total lack of definition, and no bass. Based on my research, the Studio series had been number one on my list. And, when I saw they had the system setup in a dedicated room, with the identical AVR and sub combo I'm using at home, I thought fantastic! You would think that would give me a solid starting point for comparison, well I couldn't have been more wrong. If I had left that shop thinking that was an accurate representation of Paradigm performance, I would have never given them another moment of thought ever again. Anyway, because of how impressive my Sub 12 is at home, and now dual Sub 12's, I figured something must be out of whack. I didn't end up with Studio's, I actually went for the Sig's instead, and they have been fantastic in my HT.:D

It's almost impossible to accurately gage "value/performance ratios" of speakers and subs when you audition them at different times and in different locations.

Most likely the system the speakers were connected to was not setup properly. I had a chance to audition a set of B&W 804 in Quebec this past summer and I was not impressed. Later in the summer, I hear the same speakers in a different Mcintosh dealer and they sounded amazing. Some stores don't know or care to put any time into setting up their systems. I have a set of Paradigms connected to my Mac system and I am very pleased with the sound. No Lack of detail.

Personally, I'd go with the Sub15 and get the less expensive CC590 (if that is the reason you're leaning towards the Sub12 vs the Sub15). Or skip the additional 2 rears/surrounds and get the Sub15.

The Sub15 looks to be quite an incredible sub in IMO getting the biggest/best sub you can is the way to go with HT (esp. in this case as I don't believe you're sacrificing much other than low end on the CC590 vs CC690 and given you'll likely cross over at 80hz you don't need the extra depth the CC690 will give you).

I'm fairly new to the whole HT thing but other than larger output, why would the Sub 15 be better?

My home theatre area is in the basement and is about 15' wide X 35' long, 8' t-bar ceiling. I have a 110" projector screen on the wall and have the couch about 12' back of the screen. Given the size of my room and also that I am running the speakers from a Denon 3808 would it be overkill with the Sub 15?

Sorry about all the repetitive questions, I just want to make the best purchase for my set up at the end of the day.

Thanks.

That is what objective measurements are for. We can't account for what a room is going to do to a speakers performance, but we CAN have an idea of what their presentation is going to be like by looking at their response.

Subs are much easier in that literally every aspect of their performance can be measured while speakers we will never know how they image or what kind of soundstage they throw without hearing them (only an idea of these things anyway). When it comes to subs, physics cannot be cheated. A larger driver/cabinet will outperform a similarly sized driver in a smaller cabinet regardless of how much power you throw at it.

So, basically what you are saying is that subs don't have there own sound signature. If they measure the same, they sound the same. Interesting...


Kimwyn,

That's not what I'm saying at all... Actually, I'm possibly leaning towards the exact opposite. My Sig's are excellent, and I can't imagine the Studio's being that much of a downgrade.

I'm fairly new to the whole HT thing but other than larger output, why would the Sub 15 be better?

My home theatre area is in the basement and is about 15' wide X 35' long, 8' t-bar ceiling. I have a 110" projector screen on the wall and have the couch about 12' back of the screen. Given the size of my room and also that I am running the speakers from a Denon 3808 would it be overkill with the Sub 15?

Sorry about all the repetitive questions, I just want to make the best purchase for my set up at the end of the day.

Thanks.

I am also running a Denon 3808 with Studio 60 V.5's up front. I've got a Studio Esprit Center Channel because I've got a Panasonic P54G10 Plasma above the fireplace so the Esprit Center sits on the Mantel and has 7" drivers that keep up with the Studio 60's. I'd go for the CC-590 and Sub 15 that pbc recommends because you want to have that extra headroom with the subwoofer. The CC-590 is plenty of center channel for almost all applications, but you'll find most guys going with the CC-690 because its the biggest, baddest wolf and hey, why not? I'm extremely happy with my Esprit Center driven by the Denon 3808(large room(16x22x18xopen to the rest of the main floor and upstairs), so that outta tell ya that the CC-590 should fit your area with more that enough capacity. The Sub 15 would be where I'd spend my money over the Sub 12 to go after that extra headroom for LFE.

Upgrading to the sub 15 from dual dsp 3200's, should I get the pbk? Has anyone used it before? Is it worth the money? I was also thinking of ordering the adp 590 at the same time, I already have the adp 390. Is it worth the extra cash? adp 590 vs adp 390

I am looking to add to my home theatre setup and would like advice so I can make a good, informed decision. I already have 2 v5 Studio 60's up front powered by a 3808 Denon receiver. My home theatre area is in the basement and is about 15' wide X 35' long, 8' t-bar ceiling. I have a 110" projector screen on the wall and have the couch about 12' back of the screen.

1) I am looking to add a centre channel and sub woofer. My original thought was to get the Studio CC-690 and Sub 12 but someone said it might be better to get the Sub 15 and CC-590 instead. Based on my current setup and receiver, would the Sub 15 be overkill or would it be better to get a bigger sub and sacrifice the centre speaker?

2) How are in-ceiling speakers in terms of adding to surround sound? I was thinking of going with these instead of getting floor speakers (Studio 20s) for the rear channel.

Thanks for your advice.

Markget the sub15 and cc690. scratch the rear channel

I really have no complaints... Anthem's ARC has done wonders in my room.... It is not all that adjustable, pretty much all you can adjust is how high it works its correction in the hz range... and have separate measurements for a 2 channel setup as well. What it does do for you is show your response for every speaker and allow you to make adjustments and corrections to placement, once you get that locked down it will EQ each speaker pretty much to perfect response.

I would suggest against using a SMS-1 for 2 sub integration personally, you can't work each sub individually, but to each their own...

Well +2 for the AVP then, with the pro software you can customize target curves as I mentioned earlier and it can do up to three subs independently and gives you choices like running them L/R/LFE which is what I did running dual Rythmiks and my IB sub.

Oops, I think I misread that, ARC and the Anthem can do multiple subs can't they?

The SMS-1 doesn't work in the time domain either, and that's a huge plus for bass correction.

That's quite the bold statement right there... I take it you've done all the necessary side by side comparisons in your own home to back up these claims.
It's almost impossible to accurately gage "value/performance ratios" of speakers and subs when you audition them at different times and in different locations.

It's not a bold statement, it's just an opinion. I've done extensive research on subwoofers and bass integration in general. While I don't profess to remember every stat of every brand I've got a very good handle on what's out there and what constitutes good bass.
I'm not questioning their performance I'm simply saying their competition seems to be in the same or lower price point which is unlike a lot of their other products.
As someone mentioned earlier subs shouldn't have a sonic "character" with the limited frequency range they handle. So yes in the case of subs you can draw conclusions based on specs. But I've also got practical experience having owned a $1200 Paradigm sub that was bested by a $600 DIY sub for music and trounced in all aspects by my infinite baffle subs which I'm into for about $1000 and some plywood.

They're behind the center channel in case you can't spot em! ;)

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z212/RNRGAGNE/DSC00853.jpg

So, basically what you are saying is that subs don't have there own sound signature. If they measure the same, they sound the same. Interesting...


Kimwyn,

That's not what I'm saying at all... Actually, I'm possibly leaning towards the exact opposite. My Sig's are excellent, and I can't imagine the Studio's being that much of a downgrade.

Pretty much.

Take a gander at the DIY forum if you get a chance. I certainly learned quite a bit (how to read and understand FR, SDP's etc)

EDIT: Seems the above poster answered the question for me.

They're behind the center channel in case you can't spot em! ;)

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z212/RNRGAGNE/DSC00853.jpg

Your CC looks scared. :eek::D

Time to upgrade!;)

Your CC looks scared. :eek::D

Time to upgrade!;)

LOL, I know, I know!

Only a matter of time.. I'm an addict you know. :p

Well +2 for the AVP then, with the pro software you can customize target curves as I mentioned earlier and it can do up to three subs independently and gives you choices like running them L/R/LFE which is what I did running dual Rythmiks and my IB sub.

Oops, I think I misread that, ARC and the Anthem can do multiple subs can't they?

The SMS-1 doesn't work in the time domain either, and that's a huge plus for bass correction.

ARC comes with the Anthem for "free", you have to find someone willing to sell you the Audyssey Pro gray market for the AVP, or pay a "pro" each time you do a calibration. Not apples-to-apples.

Upgrading to the sub 15 from dual dsp 3200's, should I get the pbk? Has anyone used it before? Is it worth the money? I was also thinking of ordering the adp 590 at the same time, I already have the adp 390. Is it worth the extra cash? adp 590 vs adp 390

What triggered your decision to swap the 3200s for a Sub 15? I have a single 3200 that I bought a few months ago and am debating trading it for a Sub 12. The 3200 seems to do a good job for HT and music. I am not sure if the extra $$$ will be worth the trade. Tomorrow I am going to listen to a Sub 12 setup at my local shop so maybe my ears will help me justify trading up.

ARC comes with the Anthem for "free", you have to find someone willing to sell you the Audyssey Pro gray market for the AVP, or pay a "pro" each time you do a calibration. Not apples-to-apples.

Um, I already mentioned that above. ;)

And actually it doesn't have to be "gray market" any more, my understanding is that Audyssey will sell kits direct if you can "show cause", ie have an idea what you're doing with it.

It's debatable as to if the ARC kit is "free" it's more likely it's built into the price. So you add $500 and a bit of hassle to the Denon's price, then compare...

Another factor is the on-board Audyssey is no slouch, it's the same platform and resolution the Pro will have access to. The Pro will give you the reconfigurability, more measurements positions and subsequent calculation power, ability to store and recall measurements etc. but depending on the room, there might be very little to gain over the on-board EQ.

But we digress - there's already an Anthem vs AVP thread and this is the Paradigm thread.

Fanaticalism/Warpdrv/rnrgagne,

I'm very interested in learning more about these "objective measurements" you speak of. Would you mind sending me some links that have objective measurements for the new Sub 12, 15 & 25? Thanks.

Fanaticalism/Warpdrv/rnrgagne,

I'm very interested in learning more about these "objective measurements" you speak of. Would you mind sending me some links that have objective measurements for the new Sub 12, 15 & 25? Thanks.

I don't know of any off hand and it's irrelevant to my point because the crux of my comments weren't based on a specific sub, or subs.

It's hard to get a handle on intent sometimes in this medium, but if you're serious and that wasn't an attempt at sarcasm you can always go to the Subwoofer, Bass and Transducers section and search for what you're after. I'm sure you'll be able to find it.
If it was a sarcastic attempt to call us out in some way, I would suggest you go to the DIY Subwoofer and Speaker section and learn some of the basics of subwoofer design so you can get a better handle on what we're talking about.

I don't know of any off hand and it's irrelevant to my point because the crux of my comments weren't based on a specific sub, or subs.

It's hard to get a handle on intent sometimes in this medium, but if you're serious and that wasn't an attempt at sarcasm you can always go to the Subwoofer, Bass and Transducers section and search for what you're after. I'm sure you'll be able to find it.
If it was a sarcastic attempt to call us out in some way, I would suggest you go to the DIY Subwoofer and Speaker section and learn some of the basics of subwoofer design so you can get a better handle on what we're talking about.

No, not sarcastic at all... You come on here and give people advice on products that you, frankly, know nothing about. If you are going to make bold statements about price/performance/value of specific products, you should at least be able to back it up. Basically, you have no experience with Paradigm's new subs, and you can't even provide any objective measurements to back up your claims.

Not sure I have seen any measurements of any of those subs....
Can't say I ever stated anything about "subjective measurements" of them either...

My experience comes from the many subs I have owned and research on current and past models and years of discussion, as well as spending months pouring over the measurements on sites like HomeTheaterShack (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/), there is also another site that had well documented measurements as well, can't remember which site that was... AVtalk? AVforum?

Keep in mind we are discussing comparisons of different alignments, which can be pretty conclusive in themselves... A Dual Opposed Sealed will have very well known - greater benefits over a single sealed driver (depending on size), and we are also talking about Price to Performance here... As well as personal preference.

Nobody is Cr@pping on the new Sub lines here but there can and will be better bang for the buck, those subs are pretty expensive for what your getting.

How many subs have you owned, measured, built, studied over the years ?

Not sure I have seen any measurements of any of those subs....
Can't say I ever stated anything about "subjective measurements" of them either...

My experience comes from the many subs I have owned and research on current and past models and years of discussion, as well as spending months pouring over the measurements on sites like HomeTheaterShack (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/), there is also another site that had well documented measurements as well, can't remember which site that was... AVtalk? AVforum?

Keep in mind we are discussing comparisons of different alignments, which can be pretty conclusive in themselves... A Dual Opposed Sealed will have very well known - greater benefits over a single sealed driver (depending on size), and we are also talking about Price to Performance here... As well as personal preference.

Nobody is Cr@pping on the new Sub lines here but there can and will be better bang for the buck, those subs are pretty expensive for what your getting.

OK... makes sense...

Of coarse, driver design, power amps and cabinet construction must also have some impact on performance, am I right? After all, not all these products are using the same internal components.

OK... makes sense...

Of coarse, driver design, power amps and cabinet construction must also have some impact on performance, am I right? After all, not all these products are using the same internal components.

There is nothing magical about a box for a subwoofer as compared to the far more important design, layout, bracing and implementation of crossovers and choices of drivers in speakers...

Subs only need to have bracing that will nullify cabinet resonance above the bandpass that is being produced by the driver and will be cutoff above by the AVR/Pre-Amps lowpass or crossover. So bracing less the every 8" on internal walls is sufficient to cancel out those resonances.

Driver/amp are basically the only thing left to the equation, and each is dependent on the other.. A driver can only travel so far by its design with X amount of excursion and how much amp power it will take to get it there. And then there is the Control of distortion which is directly related to the build quality of the driver - the most important part of the equation. Also a driver that can really handle a beating and the heat in a sealed alignment is what separated the boys from the men... I have burnt up a few drivers in my day...

I have over $5000 worth of Sub drivers in my house as we speak, that have seen testing in my own builds and implementations, so it has been somewhat a pretty intensive hobby for me...

I come here not to dump on other products, but point out to members that they can find different products that can and will perform as good or better for less money, if that is important to them... Don't get me wrong, I love the look of the Paradigm Subs, but I need better performance then they can give me. If money were no object, I'd own a couple if not 3 of the new Sub 2's

No, not sarcastic at all... You come on here and give people advice on products that you, frankly, know nothing about. If you are going to make bold statements about price/performance/value of specific products, you should at least be able to back it up. Basically, you have no experience with Paradigm's new subs, and you can't even provide any objective measurements to back up your claims.

Well that's a bit hypocritical since you are in fact calling me out. I guess your post was indeed sarcastic based on that response.

Please go back and actually read my posts. At no point did I ever suggest an opinion about the performance of a specific sub I didn't own. I clearly stated it was a "generalization".

I don't know what bug crawled up your a**, but I've been at this hobby for over thirty five years and on the basis of that experience I don't have to have owned every piece of equipment to be able make reasonable assumptions to share or discuss. There are "absolutes" in this hobby that transcend brand and price differences and if you don't get that then it's your problem not mine, and don't try to call me out until you get that concept, or understand the context of what I'm actually posting.

Don't get me wrong, I love the look of the Paradigm Subs, but I need better performance then they can give me.

Need? More like want LOL! :D

Did you ever go the IB route?

Need? More like want LOL! :D

Did you ever go the IB route?


Heheheh no, it is actually need... You know my huge room - 8200^3 open to everywhere in my house, that is not the easiest to try to pressurize...

3 x 18" LMS's + the 15" TC3K most certainly has tamed the beast though... :)

I didn't have an optimum setup to implement the IB, and although it is a pretty nice idea for my dilemma, I really prefer sealed... I wish I could have gone that route, it would have been far cheaper :D

Neighbor lady came over again the other night, she lives about 200yrds away and was complaining... I was only messin around for about 25 mins... I told her is want 10:30pm yet... She don't pay my taxes...

Heheheh no, it is actually need... You know my huge room - 8200^3 open to everywhere in my house, that is not the easiest to try to pressurize...

3 x 18" LMS's + the 15" TC3K most certainly has tamed the beast though... :)

I didn't have an optimum setup to implement the IB, and although it is a pretty nice idea for my dilemma, I really prefer sealed... I wish I could have gone that route, it would have been far cheaper :D

I remember now, but I couldn't have resisted anyway..

The only negative of IB's is that placement is limited by where you can physically build it, and you generally can't exploit the benefits that multiple sub placement can sometimes offer. They sure can move a lot of air and are incredibly accurate by their nature.
Today's room EQ's have come a long way to help bass in general, and unlike early days of IB's where a knowledge of manual EQ and something like a Berhinger unit was required, that's no longer a detractor.

Well that's a bit hypocritical since you are in fact calling me out. I guess your post was indeed sarcastic based on that response.

Please go back and actually read my posts. At no point did I ever suggest an opinion about the performance of a specific sub I didn't own. I clearly stated it was a "generalization".

I don't know what bug crawled up your a**, but I've been at this hobby for over thirty five years and on the basis of that experience I don't have to have owned every piece of equipment to be able make reasonable assumptions to share or discuss. There are "absolutes" in this hobby that transcend brand and price differences and if you don't get that then it's your problem not mine, and don't try to call me out until you get that concept, or understand the context of what I'm actually posting.

Actually, you are the one who injected youself into this conversion back on the last page. I'm just calling you out based on your comments. It's the "absolutes", as you say, that I'm trying to understand. I'm beginning to think it's you who don't understand the "absolutes", which is very likely why you can't offer anything constructive to the conversation.

Warpdrv,

Thanks for the comments... I see your opinions have come from extensive research and testing. I really feel you should give the new Paradigm subs a second chance though, they really are quite an improvement over their previous offerings, at least the ones I'm familiar with anyway.

I'm only trying to learn...;)

EDIT:

WOW... 8200 cubic feet. I just noticed your comment above. No wonder Paradigm's offerings can't get it done for you. That space is HUGE! I'm thinking you would want at least four Sub 25's, or maybe a couple Sub 2's, to do that space justice. That would be very costly.:eek: Now I can see where you are coming from.:) My dual Sub 12's are downright frightening in my 990 cubic foot space.:D

Actually, you are the one who injected youself into this conversion back on the last page. I'm just calling you out based on your comments. It's the "absolutes", as you say, that I'm trying to understand. I'm beginning to think it's you who don't understand the "absolutes", which is very likely why you can't offer anything constructive to the conversation.


Pathetic, you're just making s**t up now. :rolleyes:

I'd be willing to bet that Warpdrv and I have followed very similar research paths to get to where we are now but you've obviously got a problem with me for some reason.

It's hard to learn anything with your mind closed, but good luck, maybe Warpdrv can enlighten you...

Pathetic, you're just making s**t up now. :rolleyes:

I'd be willing to bet that Warpdrv and I have followed very similar research paths to get to where we are now but you've obviously got a problem with me for some reason.

It's hard to learn anything with your mind closed, but good luck, maybe Warpdrv can enlighten you...

I guess we have nothing left to discuss then. The difference is, Warpdrv is willing to share his knowledge with the rest of us, and you're not. Talk about closed mind...

Neighbor lady came over again the other night, she lives about 200yrds away and was complaining... I was only messin around for about 25 mins... I told her is want 10:30pm yet... She don't pay my taxes...

You just added that bit, and it reminded me of when I had the Seismic 12 and Studio 100 fronts, we had another couple over one night and were just playing a few tunes.. the cops showed up to bust a party only to say hi to the couple as they were leaving! The look on their faces.. priceless!

Now that I have a dedicated room in my basement built for proper acoustics with bass trapping and walls within walls I can play my system at rock concert levels without anything getting out.

The difference is, Warpdrv is willing to share his knowledge with the rest of us, and you're not.

I am, and I do regularly, you have no idea what you are talking about or the first thing about me.

You're right we have nothing to discuss because you're acting like a child.

I am, and I do regularly, you have no idea what you are talking about or the first thing about me.

You're right we have nothing to discuss because you're acting like a child.

And it goes on...

Still nothing to add, and yet I'm the one acting like a child.:rolleyes:

OK, sure...


EDIT:

Btw, very sorry to derail this thread folks. Now lets get back on topic.;)

You just added that bit, and it reminded me of when I had the Seismic 12 and Studio 100 fronts, we had another couple over one night and were just playing a few tunes.. the cops showed up to bust a party only to say hi to the couple as they were leaving! The look on their faces.. priceless!

Now that I have a dedicated room in my basement built for proper acoustics with bass trapping and walls within walls I can play my system at rock concert levels without anything getting out.

That a pretty good story, I love that stuff....

Just hoping that I don't have to deal with her on a regular basis in the future...

That a pretty good story, I love that stuff....

Just hoping that I don't have to deal with her on a regular basis in the future...

You probably will, bass is very unpleasant and intrusive when that's all you hear unfortunately. I think it's because your sub-conscious brain wants to fill in the blanks to make sense of it.

There's a kid across the lane that recently put a boom box in his car that he listens to in the driveway for extended periods. He can drown out my tv even if I have all windows closed, it really is annoying. I won't have to do anything about it though cause it's pissing off his dad too!

And it goes on...

Still nothing to add, and yet I'm the one acting like a child.:rolleyes:


Okay, last word and I'm done.

You called me out for making a generalized comment that I felt Paradigms subs didn't match the same value/dollar ratio that the rest of their lines obtain. That was corroborated succinctly by Warp and others in a manner that seems to have placated you. I didn't see the need to repeat their words, they said what needed to be said.

You've never once asked me a question regarding what I've actually posted or that hasn't already been answered. What am I supposed to add?

When exactly did I pee in your cornflakes? Never mind.. I don't care.

I'm only trying to learn...;)

EDIT:

WOW... 8200 cubic feet. I just noticed your comment above. No wonder Paradigm's offerings can't get it done for you. That space is HUGE! I'm thinking you would want at least four Sub 25's, or maybe a couple Sub 2's, to do that space justice. That would be very costly.:eek: Now I can see where you are coming from.:) My dual Sub 12's are downright frightening in my 990 cubic foot space.:D

OK children - Fight Nice :D Don't make me put y'all in a time out.... :D

It would be cool to have a 3 of those Sub 2's, but at $8K each, I think I can do it just as easily all for the price of 1. They are a super nice design - I'll bet they are just killer subs, but I'm totally put off by the price.

BRAC, The TC-Sounds 18" LMS (http://www.audiopulse.com/products/subwoofer-drivers/lms-ultra)'s are pretty much the drivers to beat, quite possibly the best drivers ever designed and built, which offers the extreme power handling and the lowest distortion #'s found to date. They are 80 lbs each !!!

Manufactures like to inflate #'s to sell products - with the case in point not localized to Paradigms, but lots of companies stating that their power output is such and such, but the chances of those onboard amps actually able to put out those numbers and sustain them is not always the case... lots of people question those numbers and very few companies will provide the data sheet to confirm those statements... Pro-amps on the other hand have been measured extensively... my amps - Crest 8002's have been measured to provide 4000w at 4ohms even with line sag - and the LMS's can take even more - 5000w is not unheard of... The new TC lineup coming out soon can and will have even more excursion (45mm xmax) and are built to sustain as much power or more and dissipate even more heat. These drivers will be selling for $1600 each raw... now that is some scary output...

Okay, last word and I'm done.

You called me out for making a generalized comment that I felt Paradigms subs didn't match the same value/dollar ratio that the rest of their lines obtain. That was corroborated succinctly by Warp and others in a manner that seems to have placated you. I didn't see the need to repeat their words, they said what needed to be said.

You've never once asked me a question regarding what I've actually posted or that hasn't already been answered. What am I supposed to add?

When exactly did I pee in your cornflakes? Never mind.. I don't care.

OK... I give up... I don't wish to carry on with this, as it's not helping me, you or anyone else.

I will gracefully submit with this last comment just to help clarify my intent. I only wanted to get to the bottom of a few general comments made by yourself and others. I don't see any problem in requesting further info or clarification on certain statements people make. I use these comments as an avenue for expanding my knowledge. And, it almost seems necessary these days, just to see who is product bashing and who is being real. Warpdrv admitted to not actually testing or knowing of any objective measurements, but was also kind enough to share his experiences, which lead him to form his own opinions. That is good enough for me. You went with a totally different approach, which was to be all defensive and garded, sending me elsewhere for clarification.

Hope this helps...:)

OK... I give up... I don't wish to carry on with this, as it's not helping me, you or anyone else.

I will gracefully submit with this last comment just to help clarify my intent. I only wanted to get to the bottom of a few general comments made by yourself and others. I don't see any problem in requesting further info or clarification on certain statements people make. I use these comments as an avenue for expanding my knowledge. And, it almost seems necessary these days, just to see who is product bashing and who is being real. Warpdrv admitted to not actually testing or knowing of any objective measurements, but was also kind enough to share his experiences, which lead him to form his own opinions. That is good enough for me. You went with a totally different approach, which was to be all defensive and garded, sending me elsewhere for clarification.

Hope this helps...:)

No it doesn't help because that's BS, it's not graceful it's backhanded.

You called me out, plain and simple, even after I said this;

It's not a bold statement, it's just an opinion. I've done extensive research on subwoofers and bass integration in general. While I don't profess to remember every stat of every brand I've got a very good handle on what's out there and what constitutes good bass.
I'm not questioning their performance I'm simply saying their competition seems to be in the same or lower price point which is unlike a lot of their other products.
As someone mentioned earlier subs shouldn't have a sonic "character" with the limited frequency range they handle. So yes in the case of subs you can draw conclusions based on specs. But I've also got practical experience having owned a $1200 Paradigm sub that was bested by a $600 DIY sub for music and trounced in all aspects by my infinite baffle subs which I'm into for about $1000 and some plywood.


To others here, I apologize for not sticking to my word and ending this but I couldn't let that go unchecked.

No it doesn't help because that's BS, it's not graceful it's backhanded.

You called me out, plain and simple, even after I said this;

It's not a bold statement, it's just an opinion. I've done extensive research on subwoofers and bass integration in general. While I don't profess to remember every stat of every brand I've got a very good handle on what's out there and what constitutes good bass.
I'm not questioning their performance I'm simply saying their competition seems to be in the same or lower price point which is unlike a lot of their other products.
As someone mentioned earlier subs shouldn't have a sonic "character" with the limited frequency range they handle. So yes in the case of subs you can draw conclusions based on specs. But I've also got practical experience having owned a $1200 Paradigm sub that was bested by a $600 DIY sub for music and trounced in all aspects by my infinite baffle subs which I'm into for about $1000 and some plywood.


To others here, I apologize for not sticking to my word and ending this but I couldn't let that go unchecked.

WOW!!! Take it easy!:eek:

I think this post speaks for itself...

Oh well, you can't say I didn't try...:)

WOW!!! Take it easy!:eek:

I think this post speaks for itself...

Oh well, you can't say I didn't try...:)

No, you didn't try at all, that's the problem.

Put all the smiley faces on it you want, despite my starting out very civil and sticking to the subject matter of my post, your replies were a rude attempt to discredit my opinion. Despite the fact it's a rather benign one.

Sorry, but I'm not going to sit here and let you pretend you're taking the high road when every post of yours ends with something like:

"You went with a totally different approach, which was to be all defensive and garded, sending me elsewhere for clarification."

Which is total and utter BS.

You want to try?
Try an apology.

Here is a pic of my studio v.5 setup. And a pic from what I upgraded from. I love these speakers, absolutely amazing. The studio 60 is so much smaller than the jbl es90 and not only goes lower but has so much more sound everywhere. Lows, mids, and highs. The bigger center is a much needed improvement and the adp-590 surrounds put out so much more sound. I could not believe it. I am still trying to dial in the ultra right. It seems like I have more bass in different spots other than seating. And that is a Panny 65" V10. I am powering the 5.1 studio with an Onkyo 1007 avr. My old setup was 60" Sony, onkyo 705, and jbl es series.

Here is a pic of my studio v.5 setup. And a pic from what I upgraded from. I love these speakers, absolutely amazing. The studio 60 is so much smaller than the jbl es90 and not only goes lower but has so much more sound everywhere. Lows, mids, and highs. The bigger center is a much needed improvement and the adp-590 surrounds put out so much more sound. I could not believe it. I am still trying to dial in the ultra right. It seems like I have more bass in different spots other than seating.

awesome setup! it looks great!

Regarding the sub, if you are sitting in the middle of the room then that is the worst place for bass. Try placing the sub in different areas because sometimes its all about placement. Also you may want to look into a sub EQ since you probably have a null in the 40-60hz region that is leaving you without that kick to the chest.

I am still trying to dial in the ultra right. It seems like I have more bass in different spots other than seating. And that is a Panny 65" V10. I am powering the 5.1 studio with an Onkyo 1007 avr.

Congrats, very nice indeed. I see the mic in your pics so you probably ran the Audyssey and if you're not getting good results Bigred has a good idea above, it's always a good idea to get placement as good as possible before running EQ's.
I can add that you might want to check some fundamentals like what Audyssey sets your subs' level at, if it's -12db that's as low as it can get and could be wanting to trim more, try turning its' volume down until Audyssey is trimming it to below -9db. If it's OK and not doing that, check out giomania's Audyssey Setup Guide linked at the top of the Audyssey thread.

With all of the above dialed in, if you still have an issue your room could required some bass trapping. Your room isn't square is it?

Thanks bigred and rnrgagne. It is in 20hz mode and gain at half. For 100% home theater use and Room is 20'x12' with coffered ceiling that slopes from 8' to 10'. with one 8'x6'10" opening at the back of the room a few feet behind seating to the left. The ultra is also sitting on a great gramma.

No, you didn't try at all, that's the problem.

Put all the smiley faces on it you want, despite my starting out very civil and sticking to the subject matter of my post, your replies were a rude attempt to discredit my opinion. Despite the fact it's a rather benign one.

Sorry, but I'm not going to sit here and let you pretend you're taking the high road when every post of yours ends with something like:

"You went with a totally different approach, which was to be all defensive and garded, sending me elsewhere for clarification."

Which is total and utter BS.

You want to try?
Try an apology.

I just tried to politely explain myself, and you attack me again...

Just drop it man! There is no apologizing to someone like you, because in your mind it would just be BS. You totally over analyze my comments. There are no hidden messages in there. Seriously...

No smiley's this time...


EDIT: If you feel the need to attack me again, please do so by pm. I don't think we need to degrade this thread more than we already have. Plus, I would rather not provoke any action from the mods. Thanks.

Thanks bigred and rnrgagne. It is in 20hz mode and gain at half. For 100% home theater use and Room is 20'x12' with coffered ceiling that slopes from 8' to 10'. with one 8'x6'10" opening at the back of the room a few feet behind seating to the left. The ultra is also sitting on a great gramma.

Well you want some punch for HT and the last thing you want to do is be sitting in a null regardless of how good the EQ is. Those aren't bad dimensions to work with and you shouldn't have to much trouble from room modes, maybe in the 80 to 90hz range which is above where you're likely cutting to your sub.

If you can move your sub do the crawl test - which is pretty much what it implies - crawl around with some heavy bass material playing and see where it sounds the strongest, that would be the place to put the sub if you can swing it. Then let Audyssey swing its' magic.

FWIW, I had to have my subs below 30% to get Audyssey in the -9db range.

Oh, and thanks - I never thought to hide my great gramma under the sub; I'll go take her off the car.. :D

I just tried to politely explain myself, and you attack me again...


Attack you? What are you smoking? You're the one challenging my opinions and being rude. In every case I'm simply reacting to a snide comment you have felt compelled to throw in.

Your words;

"You come on here and give people advice on products that you, frankly, know nothing about.

I'm beginning to think it's you who don't understand the "absolutes", which is very likely why you can't offer anything constructive to the conversation.

The difference is, Warpdrv is willing to share his knowledge with the rest of us, and you're not.

I think this post speaks for itself..."

They're all rude and condescending statements. That is an absolute.

I'm a little bummed right now.:( I just got my new Sig's up and running this past week and it appears one of my new S1's may be defective. It sounds like a blown driver to me. I was getting very noticeable distortion from the left surround channel, even at very low volumes, while watching Midnight Meat Train on BR last night. I hadn't noticed it up until that point, but I do often get the odd rattle or buzz in my room, which could be mistaken for the same sound. The speakers have less than 15 hours on them so far, and I haven't even let them rip yet.

Any ideas? Is it possible to receive a new speaker with a blown driver? Could it be my Denon 3808? Or, maybe the multichannel sountrack on that particular BR?

I guess I should go swap out that speaker, and maybe try a few different things...

Attack you? What are you smoking? You're the one challenging my opinions and being rude. In every case I'm simply reacting to a snide comment you have felt compelled to throw in.

Your words;

"You come on here and give people advice on products that you, frankly, know nothing about.

I'm beginning to think it's you who don't understand the "absolutes", which is very likely why you can't offer anything constructive to the conversation.

The difference is, Warpdrv is willing to share his knowledge with the rest of us, and you're not.

I think this post speaks for itself..."

They're all rude and condescending statements. That is an absolute.

You're right, I'm wrong... I apologize... Now PLEASE stop...

Original Studio 80's and Servo 18 here....still working great after all these years.

What triggered your decision to swap the 3200s for a Sub 15? I have a single 3200 that I bought a few months ago and am debating trading it for a Sub 12. The 3200 seems to do a good job for HT and music. I am not sure if the extra $$$ will be worth the trade. Tomorrow I am going to listen to a Sub 12 setup at my local shop so maybe my ears will help me justify trading up.

What triggered the swap ius that I got rid of my monitors and got some studios.cc590,20's(soon to be 60's)all v5.The dsp subs were almost there but not quite, they try though. Still have one dsp left, sold one for the same price your asking. Ordering the sub 15 next friday. Got an almost full price offer today on the second dsp, might except it. Did you listen to the sub 12 today? I haven't heard the sub 15 only the 12 but it must be better.Anyone have any opinions on adp 390 vs adp 590 or on the pbk?

I'm a little bummed right now.:( I just got my new Sig's up and running this past week and it appears one of my new S1's may be defective. It sounds like a blown driver to me. I was getting very noticeable distortion from the left surround channel, even at very low volumes, while watching Midnight Meat Train on BR last night. I hadn't noticed it up until that point, but I do often get the odd rattle or buzz in my room, which could be mistaken for the same sound. The speakers have less than 15 hours on them so far, and I haven't even let them rip yet.

Any ideas? Is it possible to receive a new speaker with a blown driver? Could it be my Denon 3808? Or, maybe the multichannel sountrack on that particular BR?

I guess I should go swap out that speaker, and maybe try a few different things...

Always check the simple things first, like potential loose wiring and that it's phased right. Then put the culprit on a channel that you know works fine, if the same problem occurs it's the speaker unfortunately. If the speaker works as it should it's the Denon.
It's not common for speakers to arrive DOA, but it does happen. I had a PSB speaker once where they forgot to glue the surround to the cone.. :eek:

Original Studio 80's and Servo 18 here....still working great after all these years.

Ahhh.. kickin it old school eh? ;)

It's almost impossible to accurately gage "value/performance ratios" of speakers and subs when you audition them at different times and in different locations.

I'd agree with this totally. I've never auditioned audio stuff in a store and left with a good feel for how it would sound at home. In fact it has always been significantly different. I would always try to get an in home demo, and if the dealer objects, but used off audiogon and you can sell if you don't like it.

Always check the simple things first, like potential loose wiring and that it's phased right. Then put the culprit on a channel that you know works fine, if the same problem occurs it's the speaker unfortunately. If the speaker works as it should it's the Denon.
It's not common for speakers to arrive DOA, but it does happen. I had a PSB speaker once where they forgot to glue the surround to the cone.. :eek:

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to sneak away from the wife and little one long enough to verify my suspisions. I'm fairly certain, maybe ~90% or so, that it is indeed the driver of said speaker. I guess I'm just hoping it's not DOA. Anyway, I'll try to run through a quick process of elimination of all the usual susupects, hopefully tomorrow morning. I'll report back my findings. Thanks for the suggestions.

Anyone here done an upgrade from a CC-370 center to the current CC-390?

I've had the 370 for about four years, and it's nice, but I get the feeling it's a tad "small" in comparison to my mains (Monitor 9s). Just wondering if the upgrade would be worth it.

hello all,

is $250 a deal for a pre-owned pair?

hello all,

is $250 a deal for a pre-owned pair?which speakers?

which speakers?

Top of his post.

I'm a little bummed right now.:( I just got my new Sig's up and running this past week and it appears one of my new S1's may be defective. It sounds like a blown driver to me. I was getting very noticeable distortion from the left surround channel, even at very low volumes, while watching Midnight Meat Train on BR last night. I hadn't noticed it up until that point, but I do often get the odd rattle or buzz in my room, which could be mistaken for the same sound. The speakers have less than 15 hours on them so far, and I haven't even let them rip yet.

Any ideas? Is it possible to receive a new speaker with a blown driver? Could it be my Denon 3808? Or, maybe the multichannel soundtrack on that particular BR?

I guess I should go swap out that speaker, and maybe try a few different things...

I have a similar issue with my new ADP 590s. The only thing is that I only hear the "noise" on one of songs in Celine Dion's Live in Las Vegas" Blu Ray.
Everything else has played fine. I think if it was a driver problem, I would hear it more often. Maybe something resonating in the room.
It is on my Left Surround though. :confused:

I have a similar issue with my new ADP 590s. The only thing is that I only hear the "noise" on one of songs in Celine Dion's Live in Las Vegas" Blu Ray.
Everything else has played fine. I think if it was a driver problem, I would hear it more often. Maybe something resonating in the room.
It is on my Left Surround though. :confused:

A damaged speaker will not care what material you play through it, you should always be able to tell it's damaged if you isolate it. A damaged speaker pretty much sounds like crap no matter what's playing through it.

If the problem is specific to that Blu Ray, it, the player or receiver could be at fault.
There are still a ton of software "glitches" out there in both receivers and players, and that's the reason there's a lot of software updates for both. It is not uncommon for a software update to be required to be able to play some Blu Ray titles properly.
Go to the threads of your specific equipment and make sure you've got current software. The Blu Ray threads for the specific Blu Ray that's not working might also be a source of info to let you know if the problem originates on the disc itself.

the easiest way I have found to check for a blown driver is play the receiver or preamps test tones through them... that seems to isolate the problem area quite quickly and you can also compare it to the other speakers around the room moving from speaker to speaker like your level matching them.... put your ear right up to the speaker and you can notice the difference in how they behave.

I have gotten speakers new with bad drivers, just get in touch with your dealer and have him order you a new one... What are they a 5 year warranty? Pretty simple replacement, 6mm hex head to remove them, and make sure you keep the rubber cup "IMS/SHOCK-MOUNT" that sits in the screw hole of the driver and transfer it to the new driver when it arrives... I like to take pictures of the wires connected to the driver before removal so you know where they go properly, I have had a couple of studio's that the wires were identical in color and spade size, you should mark one with a black marker or something.

the easiest way I have found to check for a blown driver is play the receiver or preamps test tones through them... that seems to isolate the problem area quite quickly and you can also compare it to the other speakers around the room moving from speaker to speaker like your level matching them.... put your ear right up to the speaker and you can notice the difference in how they behave.



Duh, why didn't I think of that? :rolleyes: If you ran the auto set up they will all be level matched so they should sound the same will full band pink noise going through them.

I guess I'm more tactile - if it ain't working - kick it!! :p

I am considering a system of Signature speakers and wanted to know what most people think makes more sense.

1) A system of 4 S1 speakers and 1 C1 or C3 with a 15" sub.

2) A system with a pair of S6 speakers, 1 pair of S1 speakers and a C3. However, if I get this system, I would need to get a much smaller sub - either a budget 10" or 12" model.

I was leaning towards System 1 above since I thought if I were to crossover the satellites at 80Hz - I could save some money and get equivalent perfomance. I was also having difficulty deciding between the C1 and C3 in that configuration.

I use my system about 75% of the time for TV and movies. Even though I only use it for 2 channel music about 25% of the time - performance for 2-channel is important to me.

Thanks

I'm a little bummed right now.:( I just got my new Sig's up and running this past week and it appears one of my new S1's may be defective. It sounds like a blown driver to me. I was getting very noticeable distortion from the left surround channel, even at very low volumes, while watching Midnight Meat Train on BR last night. I hadn't noticed it up until that point, but I do often get the odd rattle or buzz in my room, which could be mistaken for the same sound. The speakers have less than 15 hours on them so far, and I haven't even let them rip yet.

Any ideas? Is it possible to receive a new speaker with a blown driver? Could it be my Denon 3808? Or, maybe the multichannel sountrack on that particular BR?

I guess I should go swap out that speaker, and maybe try a few different things...

I was able to pinpoint the issue this afternoon, and it is in fact the driver of that S1.:( I swapped the surround speakers to confirm and the issue indeed followed that speaker. I have my doubts whether it's actually a blown driver though, because it isn't always audible. It only seems to show up with certain frequencies. My uneducated guess would be that something within the driver is perhaps loose, causing a vibration or buzzing effect. Although, I don't have any experience with blown drivers, so I'm unable to confirm. Oh well, back to the dealer it goes...

Btw, will Paradigm typically just send out a new driver, or will they send a whole new speaker? These speakers are still less than two weeks old. Something else I just remembered about the S1's, the driver is attached from the inside. I think you would have to take the whole unit apart to swap it out.

Now I'm not as stoked to see my new amp(A5), which should arrive early this week.:rolleyes:

Now I'm not as stoked to see my new amp(A5), which should arrive early this week.:rolleyes:anthem A5 nice

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/2226/edit8385modifiedcustom.jpg
i swear i heard angels sing when i saw this picture.

2) A system with a pair of S6 speakers, 1 pair of S1 speakers and a C3. However, if I get this system, I would need to get a much smaller sub - either a budget 10" or 12" model.

I use my system about 75% of the time for TV and movies. Even though I only use it for 2 channel music about 25% of the time - performance for 2-channel is important to me.

Thanks

System 2 is what I have (although .v2) paired with a Paradigm Ultracube-12 sub. However I have some Mission e52's as surround back channels as well to make up the full 7.1 set.

If music is important to you then go for the S6's as the S1's are a long way short of the S6's performance, even when supplemented by a sub.

If you want to go down the bookshelf route then you also have to factor in the cost of some good stands to go with them too....

When I setup my v3 100's a few years ago in my HT I rediscovered 2 ch music. I probably do 60% or less HT now. Do not know what you are coming from but you might consider what speakers would be best for you for 2 CH and the possibility that you might really do more 2CH than you think.

I am looking at speaker upgrades now and have a set of three JTR Triple 12HT trying them. They are fantastic for theater but I am not convinced that for 2 CH they have what it takes which is a lot more important than I ever thought it would be.


I am considering a system of Signature speakers and wanted to know what most people think makes more sense.

1) A system of 4 S1 speakers and 1 C1 or C3 with a 15" sub.

2) A system with a pair of S6 speakers, 1 pair of S1 speakers and a C3. However, if I get this system, I would need to get a much smaller sub - either a budget 10" or 12" model.

I was leaning towards System 1 above since I thought if I were to crossover the satellites at 80Hz - I could save some money and get equivalent perfomance. I was also having difficulty deciding between the C1 and C3 in that configuration.

I use my system about 75% of the time for TV and movies. Even though I only use it for 2 channel music about 25% of the time - performance for 2-channel is important to me.

Thanks

Can someone please help me ?

After asking the guys in the amp section i am more confused than ever!So i thought i would ask the paradigm guys.

my gear
paradigm millenia 30's left,right and center
paradigm millenia adp's x 4 for surrounds
paradigm sub 12
marantz sr8002
ps3

All I wanted to know was would sound quality be better if I added an emotiva xpa3 to power the front 3 and let the marantz power the rest?
If not was is my next option?

I am considering a system of Signature speakers and wanted to know what most people think makes more sense.

1) A system of 4 S1 speakers and 1 C1 or C3 with a 15" sub.

2) A system with a pair of S6 speakers, 1 pair of S1 speakers and a C3. However, if I get this system, I would need to get a much smaller sub - either a budget 10" or 12" model.

I was leaning towards System 1 above since I thought if I were to crossover the satellites at 80Hz - I could save some money and get equivalent perfomance. I was also having difficulty deciding between the C1 and C3 in that configuration.

I use my system about 75% of the time for TV and movies. Even though I only use it for 2 channel music about 25% of the time - performance for 2-channel is important to me.

Thanks


What is the size and dimensions of the room... it would be more helpful for us to give you a suggestion....

I would also throw into the mix, S2's C3 and S1's plus a really nice sub.. depends on room size...

Can someone please help me ?

After asking the guys in the amp section i am more confused than ever!So i thought i would ask the paradigm guys.

my gear
paradigm millenia 30's left,right and center
paradigm millenia adp's x 4 for surrounds
paradigm sub 12
marantz sr8002
ps3

All I wanted to know was would sound quality be better if I added an emotiva xpa3 to power the front 3 and let the marantz power the rest?
If not was is my next option?hell yes

I have one of the old PDR-10 subwoofers. The ones that look like a perfect cube, not the stylish ones they now sell.

Would I see any benefit to changing it to another subwoofer?

My room is not big, about 15 foot long by 10 foot wide, with the seating position 8 feet away from the sub.

It sounds great as it is, but am I missing something from the higher end subwoofers?

Would the PBK-1 bass kit do me any good, seeing as I have Audyssey in my Denon?

Can someone please help me ?

After asking the guys in the amp section i am more confused than ever!So i thought i would ask the paradigm guys.

my gear
paradigm millenia 30's left,right and center
paradigm millenia adp's x 4 for surrounds
paradigm sub 12
marantz sr8002
ps3

All I wanted to know was would sound quality be better if I added an emotiva xpa3 to power the front 3 and let the marantz power the rest?
If not was is my next option?

I can see why you'd come out of there confused, this is an area that I believe is subject to a lot of "subjective" opinions, it's almost an internet cult thing.
The short answer, based on my practical experience, and what I consider common sense, is probably not. Those are quite efficient speakers and since you're definitely crossing them at 80hz or higher the load on the amps won't be much of an issue.

Is there something about the sound quality you have now that you don't like?

I can see why you'd come out of there confused, this is an area that I believe is subject to a lot of "subjective" opinions, it's almost an internet cult thing.
The short answer, based on my practical experience, and what I consider common sense, is probably not. Those are quite efficient speakers and since you're definitely crossing them at 80hz or higher the load on the amps won't be much of an issue.

Is there something about the sound quality you have now that you don't like?

actually the guys in the amp section said he would be fine without an amp.

actually the guys in the amp section said he would be fine without an amp.

Good, maybe the usual suspects are sleeping! ;)

What triggered the swap ius that I got rid of my monitors and got some studios.cc590,20's(soon to be 60's)all v5.The dsp subs were almost there but not quite, they try though. Still have one dsp left, sold one for the same price your asking. Ordering the sub 15 next friday. Got an almost full price offer today on the second dsp, might except it. Did you listen to the sub 12 today? I haven't heard the sub 15 only the 12 but it must be better.Anyone have any opinions on adp 390 vs adp 590 or on the pbk?

Didn't make it in to give the Sub 12 an audition - had other shopping to do with the family. I'll plan something for the holiday's. I am still itching for one though and until I listen to one I won't know how it compares to my 3200. I have a pair of v4 40's and a v4 CC590 so the Sub 12 would be a good match.

I have one of the old PDR-10 subwoofers. The ones that look like a perfect cube, not the stylish ones they now sell.

Would I see any benefit to changing it to another subwoofer?

My room is not big, about 15 foot long by 10 foot wide, with the seating position 8 feet away from the sub.

It sounds great as it is, but am I missing something from the higher end subwoofers?

Would the PBK-1 bass kit do me any good, seeing as I have Audyssey in my Denon?

I set up a friend's HT the other day which had a Sub 12 with PBK and a Denon 4308 with Audessey. We set it up both ways, with PBK and with only Audessey. Without a doubt the PBK made a huge diff. As you may know, pbk was developed for subs but has it's roots in the Anthem Room Correction program that comes with their pre/pros. It is a fantastic addition to any HT and tops the Audessey that comes with the middle of the road receivers. So what we did was do the pbk and then do audessey over this, including the sub when doing audessey measurements and the sub improved immensly. IMHO, audessey will not do for the sub what PBK will.
John

Kimwyn,
I run my S8's with a CC-690 v.5 and they voice match well. The obvious choice would be a C5, but the price difference is significant.

I am considering a system of Signature speakers and wanted to know what most people think makes more sense.

1) A system of 4 S1 speakers and 1 C1 or C3 with a 15" sub.

2) A system with a pair of S6 speakers, 1 pair of S1 speakers and a C3. However, if I get this system, I would need to get a much smaller sub - either a budget 10" or 12" model.

I was leaning towards System 1 above since I thought if I were to crossover the satellites at 80Hz - I could save some money and get equivalent perfomance. I was also having difficulty deciding between the C1 and C3 in that configuration.

I use my system about 75% of the time for TV and movies. Even though I only use it for 2 channel music about 25% of the time - performance for 2-channel is important to me.

Thanks

I would say #2. I had S2's for a while and could never get the sub integration exactly as I wanted. I would get it setup perfectly with some music, but never all music. I was constantly trying new subs and moving things around to try and get it right. I was using Rythmik subs, I tried 1 F12, 2 F12's, 1 F12 & 1 F15.

Finally, I upgraded to a piar of S6's over the weekend. So far I think that solved most of my problems. I think the issue with the S2's is that there isn't enough headroom in the 60-110hz region to keep up and blend with the subs. Even crossed over at 80-90hz, as volume increased the S2's hit a limit at these lower frequencies that just couldn't be consistantly filled in by the subs. I find the S6's crossed over at 55-60hz provide that chest thumping bass in the 60 hz region, and the sub provides everything below. I think I will end up with just a single F15 now.

In my opionion, the S6's with a cheaper sub will sound better than S2's or S1's with a more expensive sub. Also, I autioned S1's, S2's, and S6's all in the same room, and the S1's are seriously lacking at anything below 80hz. There was a huge difference between the S1's and S2's. The S1's also seemed to have more of a twinkle in the upper frequencies. I wouldn't say it was better or worse, but a matter of preference.

i guess i will ask again, can i pair the S6s with a CC-690 centre?

i guess i will ask again, can i pair the S6s with a CC-690 centre?

I just bought the S6's this weekend and will be using them with my CC-590v4 until I get the money to upgrade (likely a few months at least). Previously, I was using v1 signatures with the CC-590 and they matched almost perfectly. The v1 Signature tweeter has more dispersion and is a bit clearer especially at high volumes than the studio tweeter, but the voice matching is spot on. As for the new Berylium tweeter, I will find out shortly and report on my findings. I plan on running my receivers Audessy setup tonight and watching a movie!

i guess i will ask again, can i pair the S6s with a CC-690 centre?

You can pair the S6's with a Bose lifestyle cube if you really want!:p

However the CC-690 should work ok, the Studio & Sig ranges have a similar sonic character and any slight differences can be compensated for by the EQ software in your AVR if it has it.....

Still a C3 or C5 centre would be preferable, I use a C3 with my S6's.

i know a C3 or C5 would be preferable but i just wanted to know if the CC-690 could work along the front stage with the S6s. Thanks for your responses (still would like to hear a few more) but i was planning on getting Studio 100s but i am a sucker for having the best (or as close to) gadgets for my own so i am thinking to upgrade my wish list. Thing is i will be getting the CC-690 with it and also ADP-590s so this is why i wanted to know if it would fit well or simply outclass the rest of the system.