Paradigm Owners Thread? [Text View] - Page 6

caesar1

04-21-06, 09:43 AM

Hopefully I'll get more feedback from the Paradigm owners subscribed to this thread vs. starting a new one.

What's better for surround speakers, the Mini Monitor V2 or Studio 20 V1? Is there a difference in sound quality between the two? Obviously the V2 is newer, but here's what I'm working with:

Studio CC-570 V3 (cherry finish)
Studio 60 V2 (cherry finish)
Mini Monitor V2 (lighter finish, beech/birch/maple?)

The reason I'm considering swapping the Studio 20s for the Minis is the finish- the Studio 20s are cherry (matching my L/C/R). I'm already mixing the V3 center with V2 mains. Should I keep the V2 Mini Monitors or get the V1 Studio 20s?

Thanks!

For surrounds, I don't think you can go wrong either way. I have Studios up front (20s v.3 and a cc470), but I have Atoms as surrounds (v.3).

Clearly the studio is a better speaker in general, but you probably won't notice a difference for surround use. So if the finish is your main concern than don't worry.

Then again, I watch movies with the lights out, so I could care less about finish -- all my speakers are black ; ).

JohnGZ28

04-22-06, 10:10 AM

Hopefully I'll get more feedback from the Paradigm owners subscribed to this thread vs. starting a new one.

What's better for surround speakers, the Mini Monitor V2 or Studio 20 V1? Is there a difference in sound quality between the two? Obviously the V2 is newer, but here's what I'm working with:

Studio CC-570 V3 (cherry finish)
Studio 60 V2 (cherry finish)
Mini Monitor V2 (lighter finish, beech/birch/maple?)

The reason I'm considering swapping the Studio 20s for the Minis is the finish- the Studio 20s are cherry (matching my L/C/R). I'm already mixing the V3 center with V2 mains. Should I keep the V2 Mini Monitors or get the V1 Studio 20s?

Thanks!

How much SACD or DVD-A do you listen to? If not a lot, the surrounds are not as big a deal for movies. Go with what matches finish wise. If you listen to a lot of SACD than get the speaker that matches fidelity wise.

am4966

04-23-06, 11:48 PM

I have read this thread and the Paradigm thread and I have not seen where anyone had asked this before. So I was wanting to know what people thought was a better system.

The Paradigms Monitor 11's, CC370, Cin 220 and PW 2200 or the PSB Command Performance System....Image T65 Towers, Image C60, Image S50 and SubSeries 6i Subwoofer

Price for both of the setups are very close....Any comments will be greatly appreciated. I think I posted this in the PSB Thread too. In hopes of getting as many opinions as possible.

BTW I have heard the Paradigms and I listend to the PSB T45's Towers only the Store didnt have a PSB system set up.

AM

JohnGZ28

04-24-06, 07:48 AM

BTW I have heard the Paradigms and I listend to the PSB T45's Towers only the Store didnt have a PSB system set up.

AM

Based on what you heard, which sound did you like?

I don't know of too many people that listen to speakers at the same price point who buy the ones they like the least. So asking Pdigm owners which they liked better most are going to say the Pdigms since that is what they purchased. The same with PSB owners.

If you liked the sounds of the T45's then you will probably like the T65's.

am4966

04-24-06, 10:23 AM

You are correct...But maybe someone had PSB's before and then went with the Pdigm. If that was the case then why. I guess I'm just trying to buy the best system that I can within my budget. Pdigm, where AWESOME when the wife and I listend to them. The store used a NAD T763 to run them....

slammers

04-24-06, 05:01 PM

oztech

04-24-06, 10:56 PM

not sure that would work any thing blocking the port
would alter the sound of the speaker and i think
they intended a foot of room around the speaker.

hifisponge

04-25-06, 01:38 AM

I have a pair of Paradigm mini monitors. I want to uses them as rears for a 7.1 setup. These speakers are quite deep, 12 inches. For esthetic reasons I do not want to have them stick out from the wall this far.

I was planning on recessing them into the rear wall. However, they have a rear port on them and do not know what effect it would have by having the speaker ported to the inside surface of the wall and only have the front surface of the speaker protrude into the room.

Can anyone share some insight on what effects (good or bad) this has?

Thanks
Shawn

Typically, blocking the port on any speaker will reduce the bass extension of the speaker (how low it will play). However, placing any speaker next to a wall will also increase bass output. Doing what you want to do could make the speaker sound boomy or muddy. I would temporarily place the speakers on stands right next to the wall to give you an idea of what they might sound like. Then try pluging the port with foam, or even an old sock to see if it sounds any better.

slammers

04-25-06, 12:44 PM

bearrito

04-26-06, 12:26 PM

Hey guys I just bought a pair of Studio 20 v.3s to be used for a 2.1 system in the living room. I am really wanting to add a center channel, but the centers in the studio series are just too big to meet the WAF for the living room. The only centers that Paradigm offers that are small enough and sleek enough to meet her approval are the Cinema CC, Cinema 110C, or the Cinema 220C. I would really like to have some sort of center as there will be alot of off-axis viewing of television and movies in the living room. I want the dialogue to always come from a central point regardless of where one is sitting. Will the Cinema series, say the 220 for instance, be close enough of a timbre match to be used with the Studio 20s? The wife could care less obviously :rolleyes: , but I'm really worried about not having some sort of center. Any advice/replies/jokes/whatever will be really appreciated. Thanks! :)

spolyepoly

04-26-06, 04:42 PM

Dinger23

04-26-06, 05:45 PM

I am getting a 5.1 speaker system. I auditioned several brands, and like Paradigm Studio 60 the best. I plan to get CC470 for center and Studio 20 for surround. With this configuration I am running close to my budge and don't have enough to afford even the cheapest subwoofer in reference series. I am wondering if it is OK to use a subwoofer from the regular Paradigm series, e.g., PS-1000 or PW-2100, to complete the set up. I would be using this system for both music and movie. Maybe 50/50. Music preferences are classical, opera, and jazz. Thank you.

Eric

Go do a sound check at your dealer. Listen to the 60's with the lesser sub and then compare it to the 20's or 40's with a better sub. You might like the overall sound of the smaller speaker with a better sub while keeping your budget

caesar1

04-26-06, 06:32 PM

I am getting a 5.1 speaker system. I auditioned several brands, and like Paradigm Studio 60 the best. I plan to get CC470 for center and Studio 20 for surround. With this configuration I am running close to my budge and don't have enough to afford even the cheapest subwoofer in reference series. I am wondering if it is OK to use a subwoofer from the regular Paradigm series, e.g., PS-1000 or PW-2100, to complete the set up. I would be using this system for both music and movie. Maybe 50/50. Music preferences are classical, opera, and jazz. Thank you.

Eric

There is absolutely no reason to get the same brand sub as the rest of your speakers.

I would consider SVS or HSU or some of the other subs that come highly recommended on this board (look under sub board here). No need to get a pardigm sub at all.

You can get a pretty good sub for about $500.00 these days (unless you have a huge room).

I have the Studio 20s, a cc470 and an SVS PB10-ISD -- sounds awesome.

rynberg

04-26-06, 07:07 PM

crabman

04-26-06, 07:31 PM

What's better for surround speakers, the Mini Monitor V2 or Studio 20 V1? Is there a difference in sound quality between the two? Obviously the V2 is newer, but here's what I'm working with:

Studio CC-570 V3 (cherry finish)
Studio 60 V2 (cherry finish)
Mini Monitor V2 (lighter finish, beech/birch/maple?)

The reason I'm considering swapping the Studio 20s for the Minis is the finish- the Studio 20s are cherry (matching my L/C/R). I'm already mixing the V3 center with V2 mains. Should I keep the V2 Mini Monitors or get the V1 Studio 20s?

Thanks!
Same question, but throw in the ADP-170. Would they provide a better theater experience than the Mini Monitors or Studio 20s?

hifisponge

04-26-06, 10:50 PM

Sorry, I guess I did not describe what I was doing clear enough. I am building a false rear wall and placing the front of these speakers flush with the front surface of this wall. The rear of the speaker is in the cavity between the rear of the false wall and the front of the original wall.

So the port will not be blocked. It will just vent into the space behind the false wall.

Shawn

While that is certainly a better scenario that stuffing the speaker in the wall, the speaker still wasn't intended to be that close to a wall and you may end up with either bass heavy or muddy sound. I still recommend placing the speakers close to a wall and listening to them to get an idea of the sound you will get. Why not just save your self the hassle of building a false wall and buying some surround speakers that are meant for on-wall performance instead? You could probably find a used pair of ADP surrounds on www.audiogon.com for a reasonable price.

hifisponge

04-26-06, 10:56 PM

hifisponge

04-26-06, 11:02 PM

Same question, but throw in the ADP-170. Would they provide a better theater experience than the Mini Monitors or Studio 20s?

Not better or worse, just different. The ADPs are dipole speakers, so they spread the sound out more. They are great for filling a room with sound but there is a trade off in pinpoint "imaging". If you have good amount of space between your couch and the back wall, the Studio 20's on stands could be a very good option. The first ADPs will be a bit better for movies, whilst the 20's better for surround music.

In regards to your original question, will the Studios sound better than your current Mini's? We'll some say that having different surround channels doesn't matter much because they are typically behind you or to the side so they sound different anyway. Me, I believe that having matching speakers all around creates a wholeness and seamlessness that you can't acheive otherwise. So, yes, I think that you will improve the sound by going with speakers all in the Studio line, whether that is the ADPs or the 20's.

spolyepoly

04-27-06, 11:59 AM

Given his musical tastes, I don't know heartily I would recommend a lesser Hsu or SVS sub. And the Paradigm PW-2100 and PW-2200 are good subwoofers, they just lack authority below 25 Hz as compared to the similarly priced SVS/Hsu subs.

In any case, if you are set on the Studio 60s vs running 20s up front, I see two options:

1) buy a cheaper sub now for HT. If it is acceptable to you for musical use, then you are set.

2) Run without a sub for a while until you can afford a better sub that is musical as well as having adequate output for HT. The new Hsu VTF-3 HO looks very good for this at $900-1100.

Thanks for the answer. I have a follow up question. How are the criteria for picking a subwoofer besides sounding pleasant to the ear? I am trying to get some rough criteria so that I could generate a few candidates to audition. I have a 18 by 13 room. 9 feet ceiling. Thanks.

Eric

caesar1

04-27-06, 01:03 PM

Given his musical tastes, I don't know heartily I would recommend a lesser Hsu or SVS sub. And the Paradigm PW-2100 and PW-2200 are good subwoofers, they just lack authority below 25 Hz as compared to the similarly priced SVS/Hsu subs.

In any case, if you are set on the Studio 60s vs running 20s up front, I see two options:

1) buy a cheaper sub now for HT. If it is acceptable to you for musical use, then you are set.

2) Run without a sub for a while until you can afford a better sub that is musical as well as having adequate output for HT. The new Hsu VTF-3 HO looks very good for this at $900-1100.

I'm not recommending "lesser" subs. I'm recommending that he not limit himself to Paradigm. There is zero reason to look for a sub to "match" your other speakers. Subs are totally different animals, and do not need to be the same brand as your other speakers -- unlike say your fronts and center (which should match).

SVS, HSU and Paradgim (among others), all make some very good subs. Depending on his price range, he may want to look at Velodyne, SVS, HSU, etc., as you can generally get more bang from your buck with those company's subs, as opposed to Paradigm.

Dinger23

04-27-06, 02:07 PM

Thanks for the answer. I have a follow up question. How are the criteria for picking a subwoofer besides sounding pleasant to the ear? I am trying to get some rough criteria so that I could generate a few candidates to audition. I have a 18 by 13 room. 9 feet ceiling. Thanks.

Eric

I look for a nice tight sub. I don't what the low feq to keep rolling.

You have to think about where you are going to be putting it in the room too. Do you need a front firing sub? The movie U571 is great to audition a sub. Depth charge scene.

To me the best way to audition subs is to have your dealer turn the speakers off turn up the sub so that is all you hear. this way you know exactly what the sub is doing. Comparing it this way you can hear which subs are boomy (if thats a word) and which ones give more of a tighter sound.

I agree with what Caesar posted. You do not have to go with a Paradigm sub

bearrito

04-27-06, 02:17 PM

I can't speak from experience, as I have never heard the Cinema CC, but there is a good chance it would make a decent compromise. Paradigms goal for sound quality is consistent throughout their lines. There is no substitution for experience though, especially with speakers. You need to go listen for your self.

Thanks for the input! :)

rynberg

04-27-06, 03:02 PM

I'm not recommending "lesser" subs. I'm recommending that he not limit himself to Paradigm. There is zero reason to look for a sub to "match" your other speakers. Subs are totally different animals, and do not need to be the same brand as your other speakers -- unlike say your fronts and center (which should match).

SVS, HSU and Paradgim (among others), all make some very good subs. Depending on his price range, he may want to look at Velodyne, SVS, HSU, etc., as you can generally get more bang from your buck with those company's subs, as opposed to Paradigm.

When I said "lesser", I meant the entry-level subs from SVS and Hsu. To me, they go too far toward the output side of the output/sound quality scale. I totally agree that there is no need to match brands for subs. However, if he does get a Paradigm sub, he may get a further discount from the dealer.

I agree that Hsu and SVS offer more low frequency output than other companies at the same price point -- as they should, given their business model. I would argue that an SVS PB-12 sounds better than a Paradigm PW-2200 on music though. I don't know where you got Velodyne though....they are an overpriced brand if ever there was one.

rynberg

04-27-06, 03:06 PM

I look for a nice tight sub. I don't what the low feq to keep rolling.

You have to think about where you are going to be putting it in the room too. Do you need a front firing sub? The movie U571 is great to audition a sub. Depth charge scene.

To me the best way to audition subs is to have your dealer turn the speakers off turn up the sub so that is all you hear. this way you know exactly what the sub is doing. Comparing it this way you can hear which subs are boomy (if thats a word) and which ones give more of a tighter sound.

I agree with what Caesar posted. You do not have to go with a Paradigm sub

Auditioning a sub at a dealer is a crap shoot at best. The room has such an influence on sound quality with a sub. Movies are only good for testing sheer output and extension. You need to test them with music to get an idea of sound quality. IMO, it is extremely difficult to audition a sub....in my room, my PW-2200 had a large hump from 40-60 Hz. After some PEQ, the sound quality is great, with no overhang. You would think the sub was boomy with overhang if you didn't know better. I have heard the same sub at different locations without this problem.

rynberg

04-27-06, 03:11 PM

Thanks for the answer. I have a follow up question. How are the criteria for picking a subwoofer besides sounding pleasant to the ear? I am trying to get some rough criteria so that I could generate a few candidates to audition. I have a 18 by 13 room. 9 feet ceiling. Thanks.

Eric

You want a sub with good frequency response, good extension, good transient response, and good output. As noted above, it is difficult to audition for these things.

For your use, you might want to save up for a high-end sealed sub, like a Paradigm Servo 15 or one of the higher Velodyne units.

Here's what I would do -- since you are buying several speakers at once, it should be no problem for the dealer to let you take a PW-2200 home with you for auditioning. If it sounds good to you and has enough oomph for movies, I would buy it and stop worrying about it. :) Another option is to buy an SVS or Hsu sub and see if it meets your expectations for sound quality and output. You can return those (you pay shipping) if you don't like them.

penngray

04-27-06, 05:00 PM

I have very old (10+ Years) Paradigm 5se speakers but they work really well still, my problem is that I want to add a Center to them.

Can someone help me with recommendations? Do I call Paradigm and ask what the best "matching" center will be for my old speakers?

antman27

04-27-06, 07:02 PM

You can email them and ask but I do not see a matching center
http://www.paradigm.com/Website/CommonMain/ArchiveIndex.html
I would look on ebay or audiogon for something used .

penngray

04-27-06, 08:03 PM

Thanks, I figured that would be the answer.

I just wanted to use them for 6 months or so until I bought new ones. Im already buying a complete HT setup for another room just wanted to delay spending more money.

antman27

04-27-06, 08:07 PM

If you are planing on new speakers I would figure out what you want and buy that matching center now and dont worry about matching the 5se

penngray

04-27-06, 08:13 PM

yeah, being doing that I have created several threads on Center discussion, I have research Athenas, PBS, Paradigm, Kilpsch and even the Onix Rockets (Damn they look good :D).

I do need to buy HT sound setup anyways for a 96'' Panny 900 projection system. I will just add a second Main/Center speakers for my second room (rear speakers already purchased for in ceiling). I also have my Subs that I wont upgrade until later.

I love Paradigm because I have had great experiences with them but I live in the US now and they are harder to research.

crabman

05-01-06, 12:05 AM

...

oztech

05-01-06, 01:14 PM

depending on sub choice you have a great setup.

Kainam

05-03-06, 01:27 AM

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/504/Stereo.JPG

Just got done assembling the stereo rack and upgrading some components, so youll have to forgive the wiring mess in the pic.

Salamander Synergy Twin 30 rack with a 11" riser.
Velodyne DD-18 sub
Paradigm Signature S8 mains
Paradigm Signature C5 center
Anthem Statement P5 amp

CD case for size reference....

hifisponge

05-03-06, 02:10 AM

Now there's an audiophile that has his priorities straight! Nice speaks Kainam! :D

strongml

05-03-06, 02:41 AM

I'm happy with the Studio-40s, cc 470, adp 470s, and SVS 20-39 Pci. They are connected to a Denon 3805, 3910, HDTV cable box, and soon an Optoma HD72. I just moved to a new (more quiet and less collegiate) apartment complex, so i'm not sure how much i'll really use the sub here.

I don't really think that I can make a fair comparison to any other speakers in this price range. However, there are great Paradigm deals on audio auction sites from time to time. I got all my speakers new and paid much less than i would have buying them from a dealer. I HATE the local hi-fi dealers here, and nobody wants to pay 9.25% TN sales tax.

oztech

05-03-06, 09:04 AM

Kainam

05-03-06, 07:15 PM

Thanks, now I just need to save up to upgrade the video portion of my system. My girlfriend already thinks Im crazy for getting these.... Im not crazy am I guys? .... am I? Tell her Im not crazy! :D

JohnGZ28

05-03-06, 08:02 PM

Thanks, now I just need to save up to upgrade the video portion of my system. My girlfriend already thinks Im crazy for getting these.... Im not crazy am I guys? .... am I? Tell her Im not crazy! :D

What are your plans for video?

Kainam

05-03-06, 09:55 PM

First will be a Anthem Statement D2.... Im still undecided about a display, maybe a flat panel in a 50" - 60" range, maybe a projector unit.... not sure yet.

RAFABAMAD

05-03-06, 11:38 PM

Kainam

05-03-06, 11:57 PM

For now, yes that is all I am running. I plan on getting getting some S4s for the rear channel soon, and eventually another pair of S4s for the side channel.

For the TV, I use it for the video output of the DD-18? Err, would you believe me if I told you it lowers the resonant frequency of the stereo rack due to the increased mass???

Actually I bought that TV several years ago when my last TV crapped out to tide me over till I was ready for a HD display. With Blu-Ray and HD-DVD finally coming to market, I think I am finally ready to take that plunge.

JohnGZ28

05-04-06, 07:50 PM

First will be a Anthem Statement D2.... Im still undecided about a display, maybe a flat panel in a 50" - 60" range, maybe a projector unit.... not sure yet.

Nice!

Hammerli

05-04-06, 11:26 PM

I cringe as I write this "which speaker should I buy", but I'm hoping some informed opinions here will help me out. I'm looking for new rears (5.1 only), and current set-up is Sig. S4 FR/FL, C3, Sig. Servo, and B&W 600S3 rears running off a Pioneer 74. I'm considering the ADP-470 and the S2 to replace the B&Ws. As someone who has never owned a dipole I struggle with how much of a negative impact they will have on music (@40%) and if there will be an offsetting positive for movies(other 60%). They'll be going in large bedroom about 22' wide x 14' deep. The listening position is only a couple feet off the back wall which is one of the reasons I have the wall mounted B&Ws now. I an easily custom make some shelves for the S2s so mounting isn't really an issue. One concern is that the side of the dipole will be only 18" maximum from the back wall due to unchangeable constraints. That position would put the ADPs 90 degrees from the listening position. My understanding is that is the most desirable spot for a dipole(not sure if that is correct). My concern with that location is how firing into the nearby wall will affect the soundfield. The current B&Ws actually sit only about 8" off the back wall and so are barely behind the listening position, but fire well above it(4' approx.) Price difference is irrelevant and from an appearance standpoint I actually prefer the Birds eye S2s to match the other speakers.

Any suggestions?

hifisponge

05-05-06, 12:11 AM

Hammerli -

I own S4's, C3 and ADP surrounds. Here's what I think. The dipoles are great for movies because they help spread the sound around and they tend to call less attention to themselves. You can still localize a sound coming from one side or the other but it is a bit more diffused. I find that using direct radiators, like the S2s, is best when you can place them a good 5-7 feet behind you. You need that much space to get a stereo image back there. Any closer, and I find it distracting because you can tell the sound is coming from a single speaker right behind you. It just seems less like you are enveloped in the sound and more like the sound is coming out of a speaker, if that makes sense.

About the placement of the ADPs 18" from the rear wall. You could try them there, but they might need a little more breathing room. I have mine on the back wall for similar reason. Sure it is a compromise, but they sound better back there.

Of course it would be best if you could just borrow both types of speakers from your dealer for a few hours and place them on temporary stands to see which you like the best, but if you can't do that, I would go for the ADPs because of short length of your room.

BTW - I listen to 50% music / 50% movies and still feel the ADPs were the best choice. YMMV

Cheers,

- Tim

BobThePenguin

05-05-06, 09:23 AM

Hi

I bought a pair of mini-monitors and the cc370 center a few days ago and after listening to them for a bit I've decided I may want to upgrade to the monitor 5's (still in the audition grace period from the dealer). Usage will be 90% movies/games and 10% music. The 5's should do lower and lower-mid ranges better with the two woofers while keeping the upper range sounding the same right?

Now, I'm putting together a home theater from scratch and spent most of my time doing research on the projector so I'm not as familiar with the audio side of things. My question is this: 3 monitor 5's will cost me the same as the two mini-monitors and the cc370 so should I just go with the three 5's or is there something the center does better and I dont realize 'cause I dont know what I'm talking about?

Looking at the specs from paradigm I see that there are really only 4 differences between the monitor 5's and the cc370.

First, the 5s have a second-order crossover at 400hz.

Second, the second woofer on the 5's is a "carbon-infused cone, die-cast chassis" while both woofers on the cc370 are "ICP™ cones, diecast chassis"

Third, the 5's seem to go much lower (low frequency extension of 34hz vs 57hz, frequency resopnse of 58hz vs 100hz)

Fourth, the Sensitivity -- Room / Anechoic. The monitor 5's are 92/89 and the cc370 is 93/90.

What, if any, of the above is significant? I know the response is "Go listen for yourself" but I'm nearing the end of the audition period for the mini's and the dealer doesn't have any 5's at the moment in so I'm looking for some help. I have a subwoofer (just not a great one at the moment, velodyne vx10) that I need to return 'cause its making an annoying humming sound when powered. So I'm not sure that I'm getting the full effect from that. Even so, I dont think I can expect that to get the job done by itself... or can I? Like I said, primary use is movies and games so good bass is necessary.

Looks aren't as much the issue. Since I'm running a projector I dont really need the center to be particularly sleek looking like someone with a plasma might and am wondering if that is what you are paying for with the center or if it does dialog better or... (here's where my ignorance comes into play).

For anyone who has played Halo-2: you know when you get the beam or plasma rifle and you zoom in? Well I had polk monitor 60s for a bit when I was just getting speakers to have something to listen to. They gave a nice satisfying sound when you zoomed in. The mini's have kinda the same effect but its no where near as deep, full, or satisfying and I'm hoping the 5's will correct this. I have the subwoofer crossed at 80hz and it just feels like there is something missing. Maybe its the sub but since I have 30 days to deal with the sub and only 2 more to deal with the paradigm's I figure I'd try and get those sorted first.

Thanks

caesar1

05-05-06, 09:34 AM

BobThePenguin

05-05-06, 10:03 AM

What's the cost to upgrade to the monitor 5's?

Well, I just talked to a dealer in my area and he said that Paradigm won't split up speakers (ie the 5's only come in pairs). First off, this sounds kinda shady to me, but I dont really know the industry, is this normal?

Second, assuming that I can get 3 monitor 5's the total cost for the three 5's will be maybe $75 more than the two minis and cc370.

caesar1

05-05-06, 11:43 AM

Well, I just talked to a dealer in my area and he said that Paradigm won't split up speakers (ie the 5's only come in pairs). First off, this sounds kinda shady to me, but I dont really know the industry, is this normal?

Second, assuming that I can get 3 monitor 5's the total cost for the three 5's will be maybe $75 more than the two minis and cc370.

True they are generally sold in pairs.

drowzo

05-05-06, 12:03 PM

:eek:

miltimj

05-05-06, 01:59 PM

miltimj

05-05-06, 02:00 PM

Now there's an audiophile that has his priorities straight! Nice speaks Kainam! :D
The first priority for an audiophile should always be room treatments.. ;)

caesar1

05-05-06, 02:49 PM

That's lame about the pairs deal.. I'm hoping to get a third Studio 100 for the center, and replace my CC-570 since I've now decided to put my center behind the screen. (Using the premise that all three front speakers being the exact same is ideal).

Maybe I'll have to find someone willing to split up an order or something. I'll check with my dealer first, but I don't need them for a long while anyway.

I'd recommend getting a normal center channel though, unless you plan on an AT screen and to keep it that way for a while.

Not sure if the pairs thing applies to Studios. I have purchased Paradigm Atoms, Mini-Monitors and now Studio 20s.

The Atoms and mini-monitors came together in one box -- so it seems like of course you must purchase by pair (or they would have to break open a box). By contrast, the Studio 20s each came in their own box. So it may be possible to buy those separately (I don't know for sure though).

miltimj

05-05-06, 02:57 PM

Ah, great point. I thought that was quite odd (given that the Studios come in separate boxes). I was thinking that the Monitors did also. I guess I'll have to ask sometime.. (unless I find someone willing to part with a black 100v3. ;)

Thanks for the info, caesar1.

BobThePenguin

05-05-06, 03:01 PM

I'd recommend getting a normal center channel though, unless you plan on an AT screen and to keep it that way for a while.

By AT I assume you mean acoustically transparent? (thats just a guess, dont know the audio jargon well enough yet). If so then the speakers wont actually be behind the screen but sitting below it. And for now "screen" really just means wall so it doesn't make any difference for the short term. Maybe after I move I'll get a real screen and then have to keep the transparency in mind.

Well, I've talked to 2 dealers thus far. One says that he cant do it (and said he used to do it for studio 20s but they dont let him any more). The second says he can but the 3rd speaker will be non-returnable so I'd better like them. Still under warranty but no returns.

After hearing this I called the first dealer back (much closer to me) and he flat-out refuses to believe it can be done. And based on what the second dealer told me it'll cost $100 more to go with 3 monitor 5s vs 2 minis and the cc370.

Unfortunately the 20's and cc470 are out of my price range at the moment and seeing as I like how the minis sounds (except for the low end) I'm gonna do my best not to listen to the studio line so I can keep the price somewhat down.
;)

miltimj

05-05-06, 04:35 PM

Yes, AT = Acoustically Transparent. Sorry, I thought I had spelled that out earlier in the same post, but I guess not.

Good idea not to listen to the Studio line until you know you can already afford the upgrade. Just know that you are missing something, but don't worry about it -- everyone's got they're own price range at a certain point in time. One thing should ring true for any HT speaker setup... buy the best center channel that you can (and that is timbre matched to your fronts). Your choices seem like wise ones to me.

Knightsofni

05-05-06, 06:46 PM

Or just get the Studio 20's and worry about the center later.
If you sit close to the sweet spot you can run a Phantom center for a while till the extra funds come available for the center. That is what I did. I had an entire Klipsh system and returned it within the grace period, and came home with the Studio 60's, the CC-570 soon followed and I am running Atoms till I can afford a pair of Studio 20's or ADP(have not decided yet :confused: )
Just a thought!
If you have a fixed budget your choice is either, get everything from the monitor line now, or progressively build your system from the studio line.
Neither is a bad choice!
Regards Knights of Ni

thebrim

05-07-06, 02:13 PM

My paradigm system consist of the following:

Yamaha RX-V1600 Receiver
Paradigm 330 Cinema Series fronts and center
Paradigm 220 Cinema Series surrounds
Paradigm PS-1200 Sub

I've been very pleased with the sound of my system on both music and home theatre. This is my first real setup so I really don't have much to compare it to other than I like what I'm hearing. I live in an apartment so I haven't been able to let the sub go like I would like. But from my understanding it's a really solid sub as well........... Hope this helps for anyone considering Paradigm. If your in the Wichita, KS area I can get you a sweet deal on Paradigm from my local dealer.

BobThePenguin

05-08-06, 11:36 AM

Or just get the Studio 20's and worry about the center later...

Well, turns out I can have my cake and eat it too. Went back to my close paradigm dealer to listen to the 5's and they have some of the best customer service I've ever seen. If I want to upgrade anything (within a year's time) they'll let me return the stuff I've got and apply the full price I paid towards whatever else I get (as long as whatever else I get costs more). So I've got the mini-monitors and cc370 for now and will upgrade in a little under a year's time. Not sure to what, will depend on circumstances but I'm thinking Studio-40's with a cc570 might be something to look foreword to :D . I think I should be able to scrape together the difference in price by then and from all accounts that should keep me happy for quite some time.

Oh, and as it turns out, I didnt like the 5's as much as the mini's. Dont know if it was the way they were set up or what but the mini's were nicer and cheaper. I do agree that the studio line is the place to be, but I cant get there quite yet.

miltimj

05-08-06, 02:36 PM

That's exactly what I did, Bob (upgrade program). Started with Studio 60s, then got the CC-370 (very poor combination, btw, but was still better than my previous center). Then upgraded after about 10 months to the 100s and a 570. In about a year I'll want to try and swap the 570 for another Studio 100 if that's possible, so I can get all of the same front three.

Take your time (as long as it's within a year ;)) and don't break the bank. Even if you need to go 370->470->570 and 5s->20s->40s or whatever.

jkhome

05-08-06, 09:02 PM

My dealer also offers a similar trade in policy; hopefully I'll be trading in 20s for 100s...

So what do they do with all these "slightly used" speakers? Has anyone walked into a dealer and got a killer deal on returned speakers? (I shutter to think they pass them off as new, to another unsuspecting customer)

My salesman did mention that he has several pairs of 20s in his home, maybe Paradigm dealer employees get the best deal yet by buying up the returns.

miltimj

05-09-06, 03:13 AM

My dealer has plenty of return speakers and they're discounted an additional 20+% or so. They lose money everytime someone uses the upgrade program. That's probably why mine (not sure about others) doesn't let you return the new speaker after an upgrade (because then he essentially has two on his hands). Although, I suppose they could just have you take your old ones back, though they may have sold them by the time you return the new ones. Anyway.. that's the situation at my dealer.

oztech

05-09-06, 08:28 AM

also the more you buy from the dealer
the more he will work with you.

nopedals

05-09-06, 11:35 AM

I have read a lot of this thread (has anyone read it all?), and my setup is pretty simple.

toshiba 30hfx85 (30" CRT)
1990s yamaha rx-v850 stereo receiver (80X80x80x25x25)
pioneer laserdisk player
toshiba progressive scan dvd
two paradigm studio monitor 20 v2
directv receiver (tivo but not HD)

I had put together my home theater setup back in the 80s and 90s. I needed to bring it back to life when the TV and laser player from those bygone days started to die.

Bought the TV from crutchfield last year. Looking back on it, I should have gone with the 34", but I am OK with the 30". Had it professionally calibrated.

I have a pretty sizable collection of opera laserdisks from the 80s and 90s, so I spent a few hundred bucks on a new in box laser player on ebay. The critical purchase was a high quality composite video cable from blue jean cables, which made a big difference over the generic stuff. Of course, I use component video cable for the DVD.

Bought the paradigms used for $400. They are biwired but not biamped using inexpensive audioquest 4 core cable. The receiver is pre-digital era, so the other connectors are RCA.

I just did not want to deal any more with the tangle of wires and switching of audio modes involved in a full out home theater. I have outgrown my Apocolypse Now Helicopter attack phase, and really just focus on enjoying the music. I get a really nice sound field with all the DSP stuff switched off. The paradigms are so transparent that I don't need a center channel or phantom center channel to hear news, etc., clearly.

antman27

05-10-06, 03:30 PM

Logic_BomB

05-10-06, 03:47 PM

I just purchased paradigm 60's v.3 and the sales guy recomended the NAD C320BEE amp to run it off of. I'm picking up everything tonight or tomorrow. I'm totally pysched. Keeping in mind i'm in an apartment and don't want the sub or other speakers until i move out into a house at which point the rears/surrounds/sub will be purchased with a new amp/receiver/whatever.

My only concern is the c320bee since i have very little experience with this kind of stuff. I know the speakers sound great, i just hope i can hook everything i want to hook up into them with minimal problems! Experiences to come when i get them hooked up.

Brian P. Hearon

05-10-06, 04:03 PM

I have the reference series but am upgrading to the Signature series. Does anyone know about using different powered amps for the 5 channel (250 watts per) and using lower wattage for the rear in a 7.1 setup? The Signature S2 is rate for 140 watts which is what I considered for the rear speakers. The S8, S4, C5 and ADP will accept 250 watts. Will two amps of different power make any difference. At what level (height) do listeners recommend placing the rear speakers?

bassbone57

05-10-06, 07:26 PM

I have a pair of Studio 20v3 for two channel for my living room. I also have a Servo 15v2 for my main theater system. The rest of it isn't Paradigm though, I went with the Atlantic Tech 8200 system for my theater. I love them to death, but I only had two of their 12" ped subs. They have great bass, but not quite what I was looking for. I added a Servo 15 to beef up the bass and get the real deep stuff also. The Servo is the best sub I have heard, and a great compliment to my AT 8200's.

I am currently saving for a D2 and A5 & A2 amps. It will be the finishing touches to my system and I can't wait!!!

-K

JohnGZ28

05-10-06, 07:46 PM

rynberg

05-11-06, 01:16 AM

Even if cables did make a difference, they would be the least important thing to upgrade in the system....and far below acoustical treatment and maximizing speaker/listener placement.

miltimj

05-11-06, 01:24 AM

Hello all, has anyone honstly herd any diffrence using diffrent speaker cables with their Paradigms ? I now use SJ Zip type 12 G (power cord) as speaker cables . I am thinking about upgrading to audioquest or something along that line .IF I do upgrade my next question is should I Bi-wire my 40's ?I am powering with a denon 3805.
Thanks ~
I agree with John; you should check out other threads on this topic, as it's not really a specific question about Paradigms, but speaker wire in general. For the record, I happen to be a firm believer in physics, of which a product's price cannot foil. You're not going to hear a difference, and there have been many double-blind tests that have proven this. I better digress quickly.. ;)

I have the reference series but am upgrading to the Signature series. Does anyone know about using different powered amps for the 5 channel (250 watts per) and using lower wattage for the rear in a 7.1 setup? The Signature S2 is rate for 140 watts which is what I considered for the rear speakers. The S8, S4, C5 and ADP will accept 250 watts. Will two amps of different power make any difference. At what level (height) do listeners recommend placing the rear speakers?
You can use two different amps. You'll just end up turning the gain down on the 5-channel (which will give you more headroom for those peaks as well).

051473

05-15-06, 12:05 AM

My dealer also offers a similar trade in policy; hopefully I'll be trading in 20s for 100s...

Same situation here. Bought M 5's and cc-370 last December. Upgraded to M 7's about 3 days later. (Upgraded to CC-570 thru private sale. Sold my CC-370 on eBay for more than I paid for it.) Will upgrade to Studio 60's/100's this November.

This a great program Paradigm offers. Just one more reason to buy these fantastic speakers.

nopedals

05-15-06, 08:50 AM

Hello all, has anyone honstly herd any diffrence using diffrent speaker cables with their Paradigms ? I now use SJ Zip type 12 G (power cord) as speaker cables . I am thinking about upgrading to audioquest or something along that line .IF I do upgrade my next question is should I Bi-wire my 40's ?I am powering with a denon 3805.
Thanks ~

I keep hearing people assert that high end cables have never passed a double blind, and have never seen this claim contradicted. I think the evidence in favor of biwiring is a bit stronger. In any event, the speakers were designed for biwiring, so when I bought my paradigms I decided to biwire them. I wanted to use four core wire for aesthetic reasons; I have enough cable tangle as it is. When I went shopping for wire, my stereo dealer cut me a couple of pieces off an audioquest spool for $40. I probably could have saved a few bucks going with zip cord, but I am happy with it; looks nice. FWIW, I had difficulty discerning a difference with the biwire cable; the time lapse of hooking and unhooking the wires was too long for a real AB.

Biwiring is not the same thing as biamping, but you probably already know that. Biwiring is cheap to do, so it is probably a no brainer tweak. Biamping involves a lot more dough and hook up hassle.

miltimj

05-15-06, 09:39 AM

Biwiring gives you only four advantages that I can think of:

1) It increases the effective gauge of the wire you're using, since there is double the wire.
2) It gives a path of redundancy in case one pair gets damaged/cut.
3) It "looks cool".
4) Prestaged for bi-amping

Otherwise, the fact that the path is electrically exactly the same as a single pair of wires means that there's no other performance benefits to be had.

g0189a

05-15-06, 11:04 AM

IF I do upgrade my next question is should I Bi-wire my 40's ?I am powering with a denon 3805.
Thanks ~
I recently bi-amped my Monitor 9's on my Yamaha RX-V1600 receiver and notice a difference in the bass response. I had them bi-wired and switched to bi-amp. I confirmed with Yamaha tech support that bi-amping does give me two discrete 120W amps to power the speakers. :D

This link is the Denon 3805 manual . On the 3806 I see they say you can do this but not in the 3805 manual. It has a zone 2 as well though. Hmm. May want to ask Denon on that. http://usa.denon.com/AVR3805_DFU_ownersmanual.pdf

I did mine on my Yamaha with the main A/B fronts to the woofer and the surround set to the tweeters thinking that if there were some difference in the amps it would be better to have the power hungry parts on the main amplifier but who knows.

Two Dimes

05-18-06, 07:01 PM

I have Monitor 9 front speakers with a Denon 2805 receiver. They sound great, but because they can be bi-wired, I thought I'd give it a try. For some reason, I seemed to lose a lot of base from the front speakers. After a day of unsatisfactory sound, I returned to the original wiring to the fronts, and they sound fine again. I know it was bi-wired correctly, so I can't understand the difference in the sound. I have the front speakers set to large. The rest of the system includes a CC370 centre, ADP350 rears, and PS1200 sub. Any ideas?

miltimj

05-19-06, 11:03 AM

What does "bi-wired correctly" mean? What exactly did you do differently between the two setups? There should be no audible difference.

Two Dimes

05-19-06, 06:10 PM

What does "bi-wired correctly" mean? What exactly did you do differently between the two setups? There should be no audible difference.

What I meant was, positive to positive, and negative to negative wiring from the receiver to the input terminals, and I removed the jumper bars.

londonandlawson

05-19-06, 06:30 PM

rynberg

05-19-06, 10:12 PM

caesar1

05-20-06, 09:37 AM

I have the folllowing..
Paradigm PW2200 sub
Paradigm Monitor 3 v.3's for fronts
Paradigm CC370 v.3 center

I have not upgraded my rear speakers yet. I use a Yamaha HTR-5890 reciever and have not even calibrated my setup because i'm an audio noob, and besides, it sounds good how it is. I'm sure I could get better sound but I don't have the experience or knowhow to do it.

With all that money you spent on speakers and equipment you are nuts. Any moron can calibrate.

Spend $40.00 and buy a radio shack Sound Pressure Level meter.

Read your yamaha's instruction manual for how to do test tones for each speaker. Each speaker will then play a tone.

While holding the SPL meter at your listening position, the meter reading for each speaker should read the same (the goal is for each speaker to sound equally loud while you are in your main listening position). If not, adjust that speaker (not with the overall volume level, but the level for that individual speaker).

That's it. Done.

JohnGZ28

05-20-06, 10:26 AM

With all that money you spent on speakers and equipment you are nuts. Any moron can calibrate.

Wow that's a bit harsh. I understand your point... if you can afford it you should be smart enough to figure out how to work it... but to say the guy's intelligence level is below that of a moron is a bit much.

As someone else mentioned get a copy of Avia or DVE and they will walk you through the set up if your manual isn't clear enough.

caesar1

05-20-06, 10:52 AM

Wow that's a bit harsh. I understand your point... if you can afford it you should be smart enough to figure out how to work it... but to say the guy's intelligence level is below that of a moron is a bit much.

As someone else mentioned get a copy of Avia or DVE and they will walk you through the set up if your manual isn't clear enough.

I didn't say it was below. I was assuming it was above, and thus encouraging him to calibrate.

JohnGZ28

05-20-06, 11:31 AM

I didn't say it was below. I was assuming it was above, and thus encouraging him to calibrate.

:D

elmac

05-20-06, 04:55 PM

Hello Everyone,

Thinking on upgrading my B&W CDM9nt to Paradigm S4
Can you give me an input on this
Also does anyone know the CDN$ I should be paying for S4's

Thank you for quick response

hifisponge

05-21-06, 01:09 AM

esaleris

05-21-06, 01:32 AM

Today, I became a proud owner of a Paradigm system.

In February, I began looking for an audio solution for my living room. I went from look at the Onkyo HTIB (HT-S590) to a Polk M20/M10 series system with an Onkyo AVR. Then the Polk Monitor system with a Denon receiver. Then I saw the R15s and the R30s on sale at Fry's. It was after that, that I started lurking on this site, and considered something bigger and better. That, and my dad offering up the Paradigm name, as well, lead me to this:

A/V Receiver - Marantz SR5600
Fronts - Paradigm Monitor 7 x 2

Future Center - Paradigm CC-370
Future Rear - Paradigm Mini-Monitor x 2
Future Subwoofer - Paradim PDR-10 (although this is most likely going to change - I have yet to completely research this)

Completely awesome. I can't wait until complete burn-in.

elmac

05-21-06, 01:34 AM

elmac -

I own the S4's (and C3 and ADP's). I auditioned them against the B&W Nautilus 804's among other speakers. I feel the Signatures sound more neutral and throw a bigger soundstage. The S4's are also a phenomenal home theater speaker because you literally can't overdrive them. That second woofer really helps the increase the power handling and dynamics. I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have, but nothing beats the first hand experience of listening for yourself.
Hello Hifisponge,
I will be going to the dealer on tuesday to listen to both 804s with HTM3s and S4
with C3
Dealer recommends to me B&W
I have had before studio60 rev#2 and i took a huge step going to CDM9NT, in clarity and resolution.
I'm really considering S4, because of price VS value that you receive from Paradigm.
How was your impression of 804 VS S4, and can you PM me what you Paid for them.
BTW
Speakers will be used for :
70% of HT
30% of music
Room: 22L x 11W x 8H
Thank you for your response

hifisponge

05-21-06, 03:11 AM

Elmac -

As I described earlier, I felt the Paradigm Signatures bettered the B&Ws mainly in tonality and soundstage and frankly, I didn't think they gave anything up to the 804s other than bass extension (they are still stand mount speakers after all). To me the 804's sounded a bit etched in the treble making sibilance more prominent to the point of distraction and the bass of the 804's sounded a bit woolly and over ripe. In comparison, the Signatures sound better balanced and in control. They are detailed without sounding bright and they sound neither laid back or forward through the midrange. The sound stage envelopes you and extends well outside of the speakers (with the right recording). This may be bold of me, but they are as close to the perfect speaker that I could find regardless of price, and I listened to many (Revel, Dynaudio, Sonus Faber, Martin Logan, Vienna Acoustics, Definitive, and KEF).

MSRP on the S4's in the US is $2700 - $3000 depending on finish. I got a great deal on them because I am friends with the salesman at the dealer where I live, but I wouldn't expect to get more than 5-10% off as Paradigm is a protected line (only select dealers carry them). You have a better chance at getting a discount if you by a full set as opposed to just getting a stereo pair.

BTW - That's an impressive processor you have. I considered the D2 but man are they expensive here. Do you mind if I ask what you paid for yours? PM me if need be.

miltimj

05-21-06, 07:10 AM

Room: 22L x 11W x 8H
Thank you for your response
Hi elmac,

Something you may want to consider if you haven't already, is room treatments, especially if you're getting the Sigs (significant $$). The reason I specifically mention this in your situation is due to your room measurements (LxW) that are evenly divisible, which could lead to poorer than usual room modes. At the least, careful placement will be especially required.

Gooddoc

05-21-06, 12:28 PM

Hey folks. My local Paradigm dealer has finally, after much prodding on my part, got a full signature set-up for auditioning consisting of S8 mains, C3 center, ADP surrounds, and servo-15 powered by Anthem P5 and D2 pre-pro.

They're killing me, and they know it :) . For a long time they had the full reference and studio lines, but only had Signature S4 and S2 with an Anthem A2 amp to drive them. I kept hounding them and they got the S8's a couple month's ago, then the ADP's, and now the Servo-15, D2, and P5. They had literally just hooked up the D2 and P5 an hour before I strode in to the store and without any significant set-up or tweaking the system sounded outstanding, I was really blown away. I had heard the S8's alone and was impressed, but the whole package was just unreal. The impulse to buy was nearly overwhelming :eek: Aside from the C3(I would likely go with the C5), it is the exact set-up I would love to purchase. There's only one issue, my current room size is 13X28 with only 13X15 of the space allocated for HT, the rest will be an entertaining area with couches and such, but no dividing wall. So the most rear seating will be about 14 or 15 feet from a 50" plasma. But I will likely have a bigger space for the system within the next several years.

I have been back and forth for the mains between the S8's and one or two Sig Servo's versus the S4's along with a definite two Servo-15's. Why two Servo-15's with the S8's in such a small room? Answer: I had an audio engineer with Rives audio tell me I NEED two subwoofers to "get the base right" in my room, regardless of whether I had the S8's or the S4's. I know that point could be argued all year, but that was his position and he was firm about it. He's convinced I might never get the mid's and high's right without the proper bass foundation. It would be nice to have the ability to fill a larger room in the future, but my concern is that the S8's won't have enough room to breathe in that space.

So, here is where I need advice from current Sig system owners. There are several possibilities here, and if S4 and S8 owners could chime in with their experiences I would greatly appreciate it.

1) S8, C5, ADP's and 1 or 2 Servo-15's. Anyone with S8's and C5 in a room this size with seating at 13 to 15 feet? Do you feel you're doing the S8's justice? Do you think I can get the S8's off the wall enough for proper imaging?

2) S4, C3, ADP's and 2 Servo-15's. Anyone with this configuration(or even just 1 Servo)? Wish you had the S8's? Or are the S4's with the Servo perfect for the space?

3) S4, C5, ADP's and 2 Servo-15's. Same as #2, but with the C5 center. I'm not sure which way to go here. Again, advice?

Thanks all, much appreciated.

elmac

05-21-06, 12:35 PM

Hi elmac,

Something you may want to consider if you haven't already, is room treatments, especially if you're getting the Sigs (significant $$). The reason I specifically mention this in your situation is due to your room measurements (LxW) that are evenly divisible, which could lead to poorer than usual room modes. At the least, careful placement will be especially required.
Room has been sound proof and treated for acustics,

bassbone57

05-21-06, 01:22 PM

Future Subwoofer - Paradigm PDR-10 (although this is most likely going to change - I have yet to completely research this)
Future Rear - Paradigm Mini-Monitor x 2

As for the rears, ADP370's are usually best unless you have an odd setup that won't allow you to use dipoles. In that case, Mini-Monitors are a good choice. The center obviously is correct as well.

As for the sub, Paradigm makes many great subs, but if I were you, I would look beyond the PDR series. I would recommend the PW-2200 for a sub for that setup. However if you have a small room or don't want a huge sub, go with the PW-2100. The quality of the driver and the power increase really make a big difference between these two different series of subs. The PW subs are very tight and very clean.

They also have the PS series for subs. I generally don't recommend these because most of the sound you get is either bump or rumble. They sound a little too much like a car sub in a bandpass enclosure to me. If you are looking for bump, they are great, but if you are looking for musical, accurate, deep, powerful bass, look at the PW series subs.

Now I don't want to tell you how to spend your money, maybe the PDR is all you are willing to spend, they are fine subs, but check out the PW subs. After all it looks like you are already unsure of your decision anyway. If you buy the PW now, you will be happier now and in the long run. Where if you buy the PDR, you will probably be looking to upgrade shortly, thus spending more money than if you got the better sub right away.

When I have sold these systems, people are generally much happier with the PW subs. And if they settle for the PDR or PS series, I see some of them back in a years time.

-K

hifisponge

05-21-06, 01:43 PM

Gooddoc -

I owned the S8's for a while but had to part with them because I have an asymmetrical room arrangement and I was getting very uneven bass response. You really have to give the S8's at least 2-3 feet from the back wall and 3-4 feet from the side walls. If you can do that I think you could get some really great sound. The good thing is that even with all of the bass drivers in the S8, they don't have overpowering bass, so I think you're overall room size will work.

I currently own the S4's, C3, ADPs and a Velodyne DD15 sub that has a built in EQ. The S4's in combination with the EQ'd sub have done wonders in my room for getting the sound right. My room is 23 x 13 x 9. I would highly recommend the Velodyne sub over the Paradigm because of the built in EQ.

With the amount of money you are going to drop, I would think that the dealer should allow you to at least take the S8s home for a demo. Mine did. It is the only way to get the real answer to you're questions

- Tim

elmac

05-21-06, 02:58 PM

Gooddoc

05-21-06, 03:54 PM

JohnGZ28

05-21-06, 03:56 PM

Gooddoc -

With the amount of money you are going to drop, I would think that the dealer should allow you to at least take the S8s home for a demo. Mine did. It is the only way to get the real answer to you're questions

- Tim

Ditto. At this price point an in home demo is the best way to go.

esaleris

05-21-06, 05:11 PM

bassbone,

Thanks for the advice. The reason I didn't choose the dipoles is first, they're really expensive, second, I really didn't like the sound of them. Perhaps I'm used to discrete 5.1, but I'm more impressed if I can hear the object in a movie transition from front-to-back or vice-versa. The soundstage of the Monitor series would allow me to do that rather easily, so I'd rather go for the Minis in the rear.

I'll take a look at the larger subs - thanks for the input!

hifisponge

05-21-06, 09:49 PM

hifi, great idea. I will ask the dealer if I can do that. What is the difference you found between the S8's and S4's aside from the bass issue? I have been considering some other subs, SVS and Velodyne included. I've also considered building an IB sub as well. But I hope that the audio engineer at Rives audio can get the bass pretty close with the 2 subs so only minor room correction is required.

Elmac, I will be driving with Anthem P5 and D2 Prepro.

Thanks guys.

The only other difference between the S8's and S4's, other than bass extension and overall power handling, is a slight improvement in midrange clarity / transparency. The S8's feature a dedicated midrange driver in a special enclosure, whereas the S4's use a mid/bass driver. The difference is slight, but it is there. For me, the improvement in overall in-room frequency response was worth the slight trade-off in midrange clarity. Our rooms are close to the same size and I can honestly say that I have never been able to drive any of the Signatures to audible distortion and I've tried. :D Mu point is that I wouldn't worry about being able to fill your room with clean sound if you go with the S4's and the C3.

Goo luck and let us know what you ultimately go with.

Cheers,

- Tim

Gooddoc

05-21-06, 10:26 PM

Ditto. At this price point an in home demo is the best way to go.

Roger that, man. As I alluded to earlier, this is a small time dealer. 1/2 Camera shop, 1/2 audio & video sales. I know they really went all out to get this system in-store. I highly doubt they have any other S8's in stock aside from the floor model. But I agree that I need to insist on an in-home demo before I pull the trigger.

I would say it's a 50% chance this will be a possibility, but unfortunately the next closest dealer, a large, major electronics store, is nearly an hour and a half away. And, besides that, I would like to buy from a local dealer. You know, support the Mom & Pop stores. These have been great guys so far and I will definitely throw them my business, even if they're a bit more money than the large elctronics store.

I'm going to have them A/B the S4 and S8's at their store and hopefully that will help with my indecision.

Gooddoc

05-21-06, 11:02 PM

The only other difference between the S8's and S4's, other than bass extension and overall power handling, is a slight improvement in midrange clarity / transparency. The S8's feature a dedicated midrange driver in a special enclosure, whereas the S4's use a mid/bass driver. The difference is slight, but it is there. For me, the improvement in overall in-room frequency response was worth the slight trade-off in midrange clarity. Our rooms are close to the same size and I can honestly say that I have never been able to drive any of the Signatures to audible distortion and I've tried. :D Mu point is that I wouldn't worry about being able to fill your room with clean sound if you go with the S4's and the C3.

Goo luck and let us know what you ultimately go with.

Cheers,

- Tim

Wow, hifi, that's great man. Thanks for your input, it's just the type of info I was looking for. It really comes down to the law of diminishing returns. I'm not convinced there is a $4000 difference in sound between the S8 and S4, particularly if the sub is properly integrated. But then again, so far i've been generally ignoring that law throughout this process :D . Thinking about it a bit, I guess I wouldn't even be looking at the Sig's if that law meant much at all to me. Oh well, i'll just have to A/B them multiple times and hopefully be able to audition them in-home as well.

BTW, I'm curious bud, what amp/prepro are you using?

hifisponge

05-22-06, 03:34 AM

Glad to help. When I read your inquiry, I was surprised at how similar your situation was to mine.

Yeah, there isn't a great difference in sound quality between the S4 and S8s, they are just built for different purposes. The S8 is for large rooms or for people looking for full range mains.

So what do I power my Sigs with? Well, first understand that I believe and it has been my experience that sound quality is most greatly affected by the the recording, the speakers, and the room. When it comes to front-end gear, I think you hit the law of diminishing returns pretty early. That is, I don't feel there is a significant difference in sound quality between a high end receiver and separates.

With that said I currently own a Denon flagship receiver, the AVR 5800. To my ears, the sound is clean, balanced, dynamic, and the soundstage is expansive (with the right recordings). However, and at the risk of sounding hypocritical, I will be replacing my Denon with separates later this year. I love this hobby and I'm willing to spend a lot more for a small gain. More than likely I'll go with Rotel, B&K, or Anthem.

Cheers,

- Tim

JohnGZ28

05-22-06, 05:45 AM

Roger that, man. As I alluded to earlier, this is a small time dealer. 1/2 Camera shop, 1/2 audio & video sales. I know they really went all out to get this system in-store. I highly doubt they have any other S8's in stock aside from the floor model. But I agree that I need to insist on an in-home demo before I pull the trigger.

I'm going to have them A/B the S4 and S8's at their store and hopefully that will help with my indecision.

Ask if you can take them home Saturday night about an hour before closing and return them on Monday when they open.

Gooddoc

05-22-06, 02:13 PM

So what do I power my Sigs with? Well, first understand that I believe and it has been my experience that sound quality is most greatly affected by the the recording, the speakers, and the room. When it comes to front-end gear, I think you hit the law of diminishing returns pretty early. That is, I don't feel there is a significant difference in sound quality between a high end receiver and separates.
I agree with you fully. To be honest, I have considered going with an Outlaw Prepro and amplifier. That would shave at least 7 G's off my system cost with likely minimal difference in performance. It would also give me an upgrade path to look forward to. But, you said it as well as I could.......

However, and at the risk of sounding hypocritical, I will be replacing my Denon with separates later this year. I love this hobby and I'm willing to spend a lot more for a small gain. More than likely I'll go with Rotel, B&K, or Anthem.

Cheers,

- Tim

Gooddoc

05-22-06, 02:18 PM

Ask if you can take them home Saturday night about an hour before closing and return them on Monday when they open.

Excellent idea! Thanks.

hifisponge

05-22-06, 02:31 PM

Gooddoc -

I'm glad to hear we are on the same page. I'm never quite sure the reaction I'll get when I say that I'm powering $10k in speakers with a $3K receiver. But, I trust what I hear, and to me, the 5800 does a great job. Even when I had the the S8's I could literally hit ear bleed levels with the 5800 without a sweat.

When it comes to high quality separates, I do think they can get you a bit closer to the "being there" experience, but that is a very intangible quality that I think should be reserved for those that have been in the hobby a while and are looking for that last 10% of improvement.

If you are considering Outlaw, I also recommend you check out Rotel, B&K, and Parasound. They have all been around a while and provide good value.

- Tim

Gooddoc

05-22-06, 04:10 PM

HiFi

Hey, I am definitely no elitist. I just feel lucky that my job/income now allows me to consider equipment in this price range. It has not always been that way and all my friends are generally middle class guys that would consider your Denon Ultra high-end :) I took one of my buds to listen to the Anthem P5/D2 and Paradigm 5.1 set-up and he walked out of there blown away. He says to me, "what's that set-up run, $3000.00?" Some things money can buy, but the look on his face when I told him the cost was priceless. :D

I feel like I'm at an AA meeting, but here it goes......Hi, my name is Mark and I once owned a Bose acoustimass system AND thought it sounded good( hey, I was 19 years old and bought the hype...I'm recovered now). Having met true audiophiles with $250,000.00 PLUS in audio/video throughout their homes, I cannot put myself anywhere near that level of passion or "ear for music". To each his own. For me, and this is just for me, after about the $5,000.00 mark spent on well designed HT equipment all real or imagined improvements are just icing on the cake.

So my reaction to a $3,000.00 dollar receiver driving $10,000.00 speakers is simple. Nice system, man!!!

hifisponge

05-22-06, 04:35 PM

Right on. I like how you think (probably because it validates my own thinking). :D

I get the same reaction from my circle of friends. They can't believe the value I place on AV gear. Most of them cringe at the thought of paying more than a few hundred dollars on a receiver. It's odd though, many of these same people have no problem dropping a couple of grand on a TV. There just don't seem to be that many people that appreciate audio these days. They're all content with their iPods and MP3 quality audio.

It's too bad you're not in the Seattle area. You seem like someone I'd like to hang out with.

All the best,

- Tim

Gooddoc

05-22-06, 09:21 PM

Hey man,

Small world. If I'm ever near Seattle the beer is on me :D

hifisponge

05-23-06, 01:35 AM

Sounds good. :D

051473

05-24-06, 03:44 PM

Gooddoc

05-24-06, 04:09 PM

Oh boy, you opened a can of worms. It's just the kind of topic that can, and has, filled pages in this forum. I could tell you to search the forum, but where's the fun in that?

The short answer is yes....or no. I humbly submit that you will get really helpful answers if you post more info, ie. room size(small, med, large, stadium), listening habits(do you like it so loud your ears bleed?), type of audio(mainly HT, 5.1 music, or 2 channel purist).

Otherwise, things tend to get out of hand around here :D

Logic_BomB

05-24-06, 04:18 PM

My pair of Paradigm 60's are being run from an integrated amp only rated at 50 watts per channel and they sound great at volumes louder than i'd ever listen to them... If you secretly want seperate power just use your pre-outs if your receiver has them and buy an amp powerful enough to tell your speakers what the hell to do and when, but cheap enough not to break the bank.

caesar1

05-24-06, 04:44 PM

Hi all,
I have decided to upgrade my 6 months old monitor 7's to Studio 100's this month. I went to my local dealer to listen to them and they sounded great hooked up to there $6000 Marantz. I do not have that kind of equipment so I asked the salesman if my Onkyo SR703 will be enough to drive the 100's. I gave him some info on the receiver(125w/ch, THX Select2 certified, ect.) His answer surprised me. He said "Absolutely no problem, most people listen to music at 3 or 4 watts. You might sometimes hit 7 or 8 but that would be extremely loud."

Is this true? It does not make sense to me. Any real world experience with the amount of power required to drive Studio 100's? Will I need a separate amp?(Secretly I hope the answer is YES.)

I have Studio 20s, a Studio CC 470 (and 2 Paradigm Atoms as surrounds), all being driven by an Onkyo TX SR-701.

While the 20s aren't as power hungry as the 100s, I have no complaints at all. Note that this receiver is the predecessor to the Onkyo 703. The 701 is 100 watts per channel (THX certified).

051473

05-24-06, 07:31 PM

I certainly do not want to start some big off-topic debate here. I will take my "3 or 4 watts" question to the appropriate thread.

My room is 16x16 with 10ft ceiling. About 70% HT, 30% stereo music. I like them both loud.

Thanks for the input Logic and caesar. I am picking up the 100's tomorrow. I guess the best thing to do is hook them up and listen.

hifisponge

05-24-06, 07:33 PM

Hi all,
I have decided to upgrade my 6 months old monitor 7's to Studio 100's this month. I went to my local dealer to listen to them and they sounded great hooked up to there $6000 Marantz. I do not have that kind of equipment so I asked the salesman if my Onkyo SR703 will be enough to drive the 100's. I gave him some info on the receiver(125w/ch, THX Select2 certified, ect.) His answer surprised me. He said "Absolutely no problem, most people listen to music at 3 or 4 watts. You might sometimes hit 7 or 8 but that would be extremely loud."

Is this true? It does not make sense to me. Any real world experience with the amount of power required to drive Studio 100's? Will I need a separate amp?(Secretly I hope the answer is YES.)

I was able to run the Paradigm Signature S8's (the upscale version of the Studio 100) to ear-bleed levels with no distortion using a 140 watt AVR. My room is 23 x 13 x 9.

In answer to your other question, the salesman is correct, that most people listen to music and movies using just a handful of watts. To put this into perspective, the 100's have a sensitivity rating of 89dB. Which means that they will produce 89dB with just one watt of power (measured 3 feet away from the speaker). The further you are away from the speaker the more power you need to reach the same level, and there are other factors to consider, such as speaker impedance, but most of the time just a few watts are needed.

051473

05-24-06, 08:34 PM

the 100's have a sensitivity rating of 89dB. Which means that they will produce 89dB with just one watt of power (measured 3 feet away from the speaker).

Ok, that makes sense. Thanks hifi.

So my receiver should be more than adequate for my 16x16 room.

Gooddoc

05-24-06, 09:55 PM

Ok, that makes sense. Thanks hifi.

So my receiver should be more than adequate for my 16x16 room.

I agree that 125w/channel is adequate. Many on this forum, myself included, tend to err towards the side of overkill when discussing/buying amps for many reasons. I'll just point out a few.

- It's a hobby. Hobbyists often spend a lot of money on their passions with the realization that only other hobbyists may appreciate the "collection"

- Hope that such overkill will allow the speakers to live up to their fullest potential, even if that extra gain is a 1 foot deeper soundstage on a couple of recordings in the entire collection

- Belief that the extra wattage DOES make a difference to THEIR ears, regardless of the conclusion of some "white paper" that claims it's rubbish. These folks wipe their rear-ends with "white paper", if you know what I mean ;)

- They derive a certain satisfaction that cannot be scientifically measured when it takes two or more people to move their equipment

It's analogous to cars and houses. Most cars get you from A to B and most homes provide adequate shelter, and many do it in good style. But an enthusiast will spend way above the average person for very little real gain because they just "feel good" when they own the best their hobby offers.

I mention this only because you wrote, "(Secretly I hope the answer is YES.)". Clearly you were looking for a justification for a new receiver, possibly high-end separates. I am here to come to your rescue :D You should know that scientific measurements are not the only criteria necessary in this forum for purchase of new gear :cool:

hifisponge

05-25-06, 12:23 AM

Gooddoc -

Nice Yin to my Yang (or vice versa). And, I agree, as an AV enthusiast, I'll take the 200 watt amp over the 100 watt one, just to be safe. I'll also take the one with the toroidal transformer and higher quality internal components, even if it only means a marginal improvement in sound quality.

But I would also like to say to anyone on a budget, rest assured that you can get 85-90% of the sound quality of "high-end" from good quality mid-fi. Hell, for that matter when you get to the really esoteric stuff, often times it is technically inferior to mid-fi. A lot of that stuff is intentionally inaccurate and "voiced" to highlight a particular part of the musical spectrum. Because it sounds different, or the voicing matches the values of the potential purchaser, some will interpret that as better.

In the end, all that matters is that you listen objectively to what ever it is you plan to buy and to trust your ears.

Cheers,

- Tim

Logic_BomB

05-25-06, 08:41 AM

It's definately a prestige thing among hobbiests to go into the overkill territory. But that's part of the fun and if you have the money, why not? The car metaphor was the best. How many people do you know have purchased the biggest truck on the lot to drive it 60 on the highway, never seeing a splash of mud and never filling even a third of it's cargo capacity?

My personal preference with this hobby is "as much as I can reasonably spend without feeling guilty". $2200 CDN for the speakers and amp I recently purchased is probably the most expensive single item i've EVER purchased (22 years old btw...) but I feel great with that purchase. If I had bankrupt myself and spent $4000 I would not have enjoyed my speakers at all, always thinking I spent too much.

Do I *NEED* a new dvd player that costs 3 times as much as my current low-end player? Not really, I think my current one is just dandy, but how much taller do you feel standing next to your equipment after a new mid-to-high end purchase? You don't hide your gear or stow it away. You bring it out, and when people come over you stand tall and proud.

Least that's me...

051473

05-25-06, 11:14 AM

- They derive a certain satisfaction that cannot be scientifically measured when it takes two or more people to move their equipment
Hilarious.

8 months ago I went looking for speakers to replace 10 year old :mad: Bose :mad: 501's. I was only going to buy new front speakers. I could not believe my ears when I listened to a pair of Monitor 5's. (which were in my price range) So, of course I got the Monitor 7's. And a new receiver. And a new center channel(cc-370 now upgraded to a cc-570). And surround speakers. And a DVD player. Wire, cable, surge protector.... Well, you guys know the story better than I do.

Do I need Studio 100's. No. But they are bigger, louder, and sound better than the M-7. More important, they match my center. MOST important, my brother is coming to visit from Arizona in 3 weeks and I cant wait to show off my new speakers. ;)

miltimj

05-25-06, 12:06 PM

I have a TX-SR702, and had 60s, and then 100s. I think it depends on a few things (of course), such as how loud you plan to play them, how your room is treated and its size, and where you cross them over. The higher the crossover, the less power they will need since they won't have to play as much bass.

My TX-SR702 drives the 100s adequately, but I definitely want to add an external amplifier, sooner rather than later.

051473

05-25-06, 11:51 PM

hifisponge

05-26-06, 01:04 AM

So the 100's are hooked up. I listened to them for about 3 hours this afternoon making a few adjustments. They sound very good. The highs are a little harsh at high volume. Maybe they would benefit from a little more power. Has anyone else encountered this? Will this work itself out as the speakers break-in? X-Men 2 will start in about half an hour for an HT test.

Thanks milt for the input. Your posts always have good info. Which amp do you have your eye on?

While I'm not a huge believer of "break-in", there is some truth to it and the tweeters should smooth out a little bit. The bass will also fill out some, which will help balance the sound with the top end.

Brightness can be exaggerated by the room. Do you have a lot of exposed hard surfaces? Glass, hardwood, tile? And then there is also the recording. Many rock and pop recordings are bright to begin with.

While I would never say that the highs of the studio series sound "harsh", some consider them to err on the side of brightness. Still, even if they sound a little bright, they should still be smooth.

It may help if I had a better understanding of what you mean by harsh? Raspy, grainy, blaring, bright, sharp?

I would let them break in for a few days and if the highs haven't smoothed out, I would look to the room and possibly the CD / DVD player before new amplification.

miltimj

05-26-06, 05:23 AM

I agree with hifisponge that the large flat objects in your room is a big determining factor on the high end. Try listening to some jazz or blues to get a good mix of high and low end for demo material.

Typically the break-in period loosens and stretches the woofer surrounds to provide smoother and better bass response. The tweeters are affected somewhat as well, but not to the same extent, if I remember correctly. I didn't notice a significant difference before and after the "break-in period". Though I do usually just leave the speakers on at moderate volume for a few days to see if there's much of a difference. It doesn't hurt anything except my electric bill.

As for the amp, I'm looking at getting a few pro-audio amps, such as a Crown XLS-602, or something similar. One prerequisite though, is that it needs to be able to be auto-switched either via trigger or my purchasing of a power conditioner that has delayed auto-start. I don't want to have to have a mission control startup sequence each time I power on my HT. At the worst, it should be automated with the push of a button. Anyway, a pro amp with sufficient power is a great value and are typically just a bit louder (the actual amp, due to the typical fans that are included), so I'll just put them in my (future) separate rack space, disable the fans, and actively cool that space to eliminate heat & noise concerns.

051473

05-27-06, 04:46 PM

I have a large coffee table in the room that I covered with a blanket. At first I thought the sound was much better. I then noticed a difference between store bought recordings and mp3's I burned to CD. The store bought recordings sounded great with or without the table covered. Certain mp3's, not all, have blaring highs with or without the table covered. So it seems the problem is with a few recordings and not the speakers.

Logic_BomB

06-01-06, 08:39 AM

Watching x-men 1.5 last night with the paradigm 60's I was noticing almost an overflow of bass coming out of the speakers. Almost like when nothing was going on there would be almost an annoying loud "heartbeat" sound coming out of them. When wolverine was being taunted my Xavier after being brought into the mansion for example.

Is x-men just very bass-heavy in some parts such as the "over hear, where you going?" scene or should I start to mess with the bass controls on my integrated amp rather than leaving them both pointing north?

DNbass

06-01-06, 11:40 AM

Regarding the "overflow" of bass on the 60s; Are you using a sub with your set-up? Do you have the 60s set to large or small, x-over setting? Depending on where you sit also makes a difference in the basss that you are hearing too.

Update: I have 60s too with a sub (Servo15), with the "standard" set to small and 80Hz x-over. I have my bass/treble set to flat at "0". You probably should set it to the equivalent on your system, then adjust to your preference from there.

Logic_BomB

06-01-06, 01:32 PM

Integrated amp has no advanced settings to change stuff like this other than "bass" and "trebble" (It's the nad C320BEE). It's a 2 channel set-up without a sub.

The set-up is rediculously simple:

Speakers go to the amp. Dvd player goes to the amp. Tv goes to the amp.

I was almost thinking it might have been proximity to the wall adding extra bass. I think it's something like 11 inches away from the wall, toed in towards the seating position which is about 2-3 meters away.

elmac

06-02-06, 11:15 AM

GOLDEN-EAGLE

06-02-06, 11:55 AM

I'm torn apart now
Went to my dealer and compare S4 to S8 to B&W 804 and 803
Paradigm surprise me with the sound from those beasts
S8 will not fit physically where my main speakers are
S4 very min Bass response need to use Sub with that one
S6 3 way would be the perfect fit
Do you all know If one will be build.

I agree they should have had a S6 there is a big price gap between the S4 and S8. I think Paradigm is probably working on one but (if they are) we probably won't see it until the version 2 of the Sigs comes out.

miltimj

06-02-06, 12:35 PM

elmac

06-03-06, 01:09 AM

What I find interesting is that there used to be Studio 80s, but they are no longer manufactured, yet the 100s are similar to the S8s (instead of the 80s and S8s). Why not have them named S10? And add an S6 that corresponds with the 60, so you have similar levels of quality.
I do Agree with that
But S4 is only 2 1/2 way speaker
ADP are 3 way and they have better base response than S4
They need to make it a true 3 way speaker and not a 2 1/2 like Studio 40, 60 and S4
You loose in Mid and Low level response. You can hear a huge difference when you switch from S8 to S4. It fills like there is no more base.
S6 has to be a 4 speaker setup
So here is what I think S8 should be 3 1/2 way, like C5
S6 should be 3 way tower speaker with same speaker setup like C3 with one change 7" midrange driver and front vented
S4 should stay the same and there should be a C1 which should be 2 1/2 or 2 way to go along with S4
Now you will be talking about some nice speaker setups.
Maybe we should write a letter to Paradigm ?

Gooddoc

06-03-06, 01:17 PM

I agree they should have had a S6 there is a big price gap between the S4 and S8. I think Paradigm is probably working on one but (if they are) we probably won't see it until the version 2 of the Sigs comes out.

I don't think Paradigm wanted any competition in the 2 channel realm for the S8, at least for the Signature line. The Signature line is, after all, supposed to represent their best effort. You can have only one "best" tower. Personally, I think they covered all the bases. Maybe not from a price perspective, but from a performance perspective.

GOLDEN-EAGLE

06-03-06, 02:16 PM

I don't think Paradigm wanted any competition in the 2 channel realm for the S8, at least for the Signature line. The Signature line is, after all, supposed to represent their best effort. You can have only one "best" tower. Personally, I think they covered all the bases. Maybe not from a price perspective, but from a performance perspective.

I agree, they did a fantastic job with the Sig line, im just surprised they left a price gap that big, because if you look at all their other lines its pretty even, after all its almost a 4K price difference. I don't think we will ever know for sure why they did it like that. I just think that it would provide a convience more than anything to have an S6. I was also told by a Paradigm dealer that he got word that they were going to come out with one but that was a year ago and still no signs :p

Gooddoc

06-03-06, 03:26 PM

screxer

06-03-06, 06:59 PM

So after battling the upgrade bug a LOT over the past year i've finally settled on a setup that I'm very happy with and won't upgrade from in the near future:

Fronts: Studio 20 v. 3
Center: Studio CC-470 v. 3
Side Surround: MiniMonitor's
Rear Surround: Polk Audio RTi28 (soon to be another pair of MiniMonitors)
Sub: SVS PB10
Receiver: H/K AVR-635

This is by far the best system i've had and enjoy it more and more everyday....thank you Paradigm for offering quality product at great prices!

Gooddoc

06-03-06, 08:21 PM

Looks very nice, congrats bud!

screxer

06-03-06, 09:09 PM

Thanks :-)

JohnGZ28

06-03-06, 09:20 PM

This is by far the best system i've had and enjoy it more and more everyday....thank you Paradigm for offering quality product at great prices!

Welcome to the club.

GOLDEN-EAGLE

06-03-06, 11:24 PM

GOLDEN-EAGLE

06-03-06, 11:25 PM

screxer

you have a very nice system im glad you enjoy it very much :) Grats on the set up they are trully amazing speakers

screxer

06-04-06, 12:17 AM

Golden-Eagle, looks like you've got an awesome upgrade plan....the SVS is a great sub but I would love to get a couple of those Servos....to hell with the neighbors...haha!

miltimj

06-04-06, 02:53 AM

Lol I forgot to post my paradigm set up. I currently have for my 7.1system

Monitor 11's (fronts) v3
Monitor 7's ( sides and surround back) v3
CC-370 v3
PW 2200 v2

My next upgrade if all goes well will be

Paradigm Studio 100's (fronts)
Paradigm Studio 60's ( sides and back)
CC-570
Servo 15 v2 (2 of them)
You must have a huge room to be able to fit 60s in on the sides and rear. They should be at least 8" from the wall, plus their 18" depth or so, plus the distance to the listener should be at least 5 ft, IMO, with that type of speaker. That's 14' wider than your seating area... Maybe you just have one listening position? ;)

051473

06-04-06, 12:55 PM

Maybe you just have one listening position? ;)

Thats all I need.

My wife cannot hear the difference between our old Monitor 7's/CC-370 and the new Studio 100's/CC-570. My mother in law could not see the difference between SD and HD TV. (That one just boggled my mind. ARE YOU BLIND WOMAN!!)

Do people like this deserve to watch or listen. I say no. Anyone have an old recliner they want to trade for a new couch, loveseat, chair and ottoman.

miltimj

06-04-06, 02:35 PM

<sigh> I completely agree. Although I think it has more to do with apathy than physical limitations..

tcat

06-04-06, 02:50 PM

My Cinema CC is rated at 130-20khz, with "Low fequency extension" to 85 hz. What does that mean? I have the PDR8 sub, and a XR57 receiver with X-over options of 80, 100, and 150. Should I set both at about 100hz? L&R's are Cinema 90's, here's a picture:

http://i.pbase.com/o4/13/3613/1/61297267.HT1.jpg

Sub is behind TV. Two surrounds (90's) about 15' back. Would I get much better sound with a 100C or cc-220 center?

elmac

06-04-06, 08:09 PM

I agree, they did a fantastic job with the Sig line, im just surprised they left a price gap that big, because if you look at all their other lines its pretty even, after all its almost a 4K price difference. I don't think we will ever know for sure why they did it like that. I just think that it would provide a convience more than anything to have an S6. I was also told by a Paradigm dealer that he got word that they were going to come out with one but that was a year ago and still no signs :p
I'm waiting for response from paradigm, to see if S6 will be available soon ;)
Will keep you posted

elmac

06-04-06, 08:24 PM

I think Paradigm wanted their finest effort in speaker design to really stand out - even amongst their own line. In other words, they might have wanted to create some prestige for thier flagship S8 owners. After all, the S8's are clearly in a different league than the S4's in a strict 2 channel setup. So, when you own the S8's you have no peers in the Sig line. If the S6 existed, you can count on the fact that budget concious 'philes would be exclaiming that the S6 is so close in sound to the S8 that it's not worth the money for the upgrade. And perhaps they would be correct, therefore no S6.
Look at B&W
They have no problem selling any of their speakers
from 800D to 805S total of 7 models (6 towers and 1 bookshelf) with 4 types of centres to go with it and 2 types of surround speakers
I love Paradigm, but it is really hard for me to justify spending $8k CDN on S8 when I could get 803D's for less than that. Book shelf speakers are not for me.
I just like to get 1 more option from them that would keep me and maybe some of you happy
I don't think after listening to S4's with C3 are perfect marriage for HD AUDIO (SACD and DVD AUDIO)
You can hear better sound resolution from C3 than S4
Just my 2 cents

Gooddoc

06-04-06, 10:13 PM

Elmac,

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I agree with the fact that there is no S6. In fact, I wish it existed. I was just explaining what I think might have been Paradigm's train of thought. I mean, I just have a hard time believing it was some engineering obstacle that prevented them from making an S6, which leaves it a marketing choice as I see it. What I laid out was all that made any sense to me, that's all.

I hope your right and an S6 is just around the corner. Let us know if you get a response.

elmac

06-04-06, 11:46 PM

hifisponge

06-05-06, 12:51 AM

I got it, ;)
I will keep you posted when I will get my response from Paradigm. If I ever get one
:rolleyes: :)

Why not just get the S4s and a great sub, like the Signature sub or a Velodyne DD? Many would argue, myself included, that a sub / satillite system will give you everything and more than full range towers. Of course you'll have to work a little bit to get the inegration right, but when you do, you can't beat it. Besides, a sub like the Velodyne, with it's built in RTA and EQ lets you see how well you have inegrated it with the mains.

As you may have guessed by now, I own just such a set-up and couldn't be happier. Nothing has sounded better in my room, including the S8s (I owned a pair for a few months, but traded them for the S4s).

elmac

06-05-06, 02:52 PM

GOLDEN-EAGLE

06-05-06, 04:17 PM

Golden-Eagle, looks like you've got an awesome upgrade plan....the SVS is a great sub but I would love to get a couple of those Servos....to hell with the neighbors...haha!

Thanks :)

hehe ya I don't think my neighbours are going to like me very much after i get the 2 servos :D

GOLDEN-EAGLE

06-05-06, 04:20 PM

You must have a huge room to be able to fit 60s in on the sides and rear. They should be at least 8" from the wall, plus their 18" depth or so, plus the distance to the listener should be at least 5 ft, IMO, with that type of speaker. That's 14' wider than your seating area... Maybe you just have one listening position? ;)

My room is 30X 22X8 so its bigger than average :p , I may still get the Studio 20's over the 60's, im not 100% sure yet. I currently have my Monitor 7's abour 3 inches away from the wall and the 60 is an extra 2 inches deeper, so I think this time it might get in the way.

Gooddoc

06-05-06, 04:22 PM

Why not just get the S4s and a great sub, like the Signature sub or a Velodyne DD? Many would argue, myself included, that a sub / satillite system will give you everything and more than full range towers. Of course you'll have to work a little bit to get the inegration right, but when you do, you can't beat it. Besides, a sub like the Velodyne, with it's built in RTA and EQ lets you see how well you have inegrated it with the mains.

As you may have guessed by now, I own just such a set-up and couldn't be happier. Nothing has sounded better in my room, including the S8s (I owned a pair for a few months, but traded them for the S4s).

"Everything and more"?

Perhaps in a smaller space, the S4 may be an advantage simply because the driver array in the S8's need some minimum distance to integrate and will likely need to have a greater distance from walls than the S4's. But, aside from that I think the advantage goes to the S8. It has a dedicated midrange that doesn't exist in the S4, and that can't be compensated for by any sub. It has greater power handling and will go louder with less effort. They don't need a sub for most music genres and, if subs were to be used, I would make the argument that they would be easier to integrate than the S4's due to the fact that they can be crossed over lower, minimizing any potential impact in the midrange clarity/imaging; or conversely, if room modes are a problem they could be crossed over higher to take advantage of a more diverse sub placement while maintaining optimal tweeter/midrange positioning. But even with a higher crossover you have the advantage of the dedicated midrange, and the option to run them alone, full range, in 2 channel if desired.

This is not meant to be argumentative Hifi, I'm just pointing out what I think are the advantages of the S8 if the space is large enough. In fact, I am struggling with the S8 vs. S4 for my own system. I'm not sure my space is large enough for the S8's, even though they are the speakers I would like to have all things being equal. As you said, in your space the S4's are better, and I don't doubt that for a minute. I just think it's just a room/space issue, not an 'S4 with sub' is better than 'S8 with sub' issue.

But we can disagree too, that's cool :D

hifisponge

06-05-06, 07:10 PM

"Everything and more"?

Perhaps in a smaller space, the S4 may be an advantage simply because the driver array in the S8's need some minimum distance to integrate and will likely need to have a greater distance from walls than the S4's. But, aside from that I think the advantage goes to the S8. It has a dedicated midrange that doesn't exist in the S4, and that can't be compensated for by any sub. It has greater power handling and will go louder with less effort. They don't need a sub for most music genres and, if subs were to be used, I would make the argument that they would be easier to integrate than the S4's due to the fact that they can be crossed over lower, minimizing any potential impact in the midrange clarity/imaging; or conversely, if room modes are a problem they could be crossed over higher to take advantage of a more diverse sub placement while maintaining optimal tweeter/midrange positioning. But even with a higher crossover you have the advantage of the dedicated midrange, and the option to run them alone, full range, in 2 channel if desired.

This is not meant to be argumentative Hifi, I'm just pointing out what I think are the advantages of the S8 if the space is large enough. In fact, I am struggling with the S8 vs. S4 for my own system. I'm not sure my space is large enough for the S8's, even though they are the speakers I would like to have all things being equal. As you said, in your space the S4's are better, and I don't doubt that for a minute. I just think it's just a room/space issue, not an 'S4 with sub' is better than 'S8 with sub' issue.

But we can disagree too, that's cool :D'

By no means was I knocking the S8s or trying to claim that S4s are better. The S8s are a great speaker, and as you pointed out, if you have a large open space with plenty of placement options, you're right the S8 is the winner. But for most practical situations, it will be easier to get great results from the S4 / sub combo and greater extension that the S8s alone. Those S8's can be very tricky to place because they have bass drivers from top to bottom. If any one of those drivers is equal distance from the floor, to back wall or any of the side walls, you'll more than likely end up with a hump or a suck-out in the response.

In regards to the dedicated mid-range driver, the differences between that and the mid/woof in the S4, won't be realized by most (in my experience). As you know, I used to own the S8s and while they seemed to have a hair better resolution than the S4s, it wasn't enough to say it was an easily noticeable improvement. In fact, since audio memory is so fleeting, I can't even say with any certainty that I did hear a difference between the two (I never had them in the room at the same time).

I thought the last time we talked you were going to get an in-home demo of the S8s?

Gooddoc

06-05-06, 08:35 PM

Hifi,

I hear ya man. You know, I'm just so on the fence about the S8 vs. S4 thing that I don't know what the hell to do. I forgot how similar our situations are and your experience with the S4/S8 has me thinking. Although I was initially set on the Anthem D2/P5 combo, I have been considering the Denon 5805 with S4/C5/ADP sides/S2 rears and 2 subs for a 7.2 setup. This could be had for 5 or 6 grand less than the Anthem D2/P5 with S8/C5/ADP and 2 subs for a 5.2 set-up. The denon combo is definitely a compromise but would likely be pretty close performance wise, minus the D2 scaler of course.

I started this process with a no compromise attitude, but getting feedback from folks like you has me seriously looking at alternatives. At this point I'm starting to think the "compromise" 7.2 set-up might just outperform the "no compromise" 5.2 set-up, at least for HT. For music I think the advantage could be the other way around, but who knows. I'm definitely in a state of decision paralysis. I don't know if the delay in getting my room ready is a blessing or a curse at this point!

miltimj

06-06-06, 03:22 AM

Interesting that you both are discussing this. I am as well, though with the 100s vs 40s instead of S8 vs S4. The reason I began thinking about this, is because my next room will have an IB sub system with four 15" or 18" drivers at strategic (based on room modes) locations on the front proscenium wall, with space behind the proscenium used for the rear wave space (most likely).

I will nearly always have the subs on, even if I listen only to music (except perhaps 1% of the time). So this gets me thinking that the advantage of the extra woofers in the 100 are not realized if I cross over at 80 or even 100Hz (perhaps I'll use half the drivers for higher end bass, and half for the lowest?). So I will probably go audition 40s vs 100s (in the distant future, closer to the time that I actually build my room) with a crossover set to 80 and then 100 to hear the differences in the mid/high range.

The two main advantages to the 40s that I see are size (I have more space for the rear wave because I can box around smaller speakers behind the proscenium wall), and cost. The cost may be less of an issue since I already have a pair of 100s and would need to sell them to downgrade. Perhaps that's ludicrous.. I'm not sure yet.

Thoughts?

elmac

06-06-06, 12:31 PM

miltimj

06-06-06, 01:33 PM

Thanks for the advice. I figure since I'm filtering out the low end, the difference won't be as much, and the other advantages will make up for it. That is, assuming the difference is nearly indiscernable, there's more flexibility in placement with 40s, they're cheaper, smaller, etc.

I haven't even begun the audition, and it'll be a while, so I'm just gathering thoughts as long as we're on the subject.

Luis5150

06-06-06, 01:39 PM

My systems, as they stand currently, are:

System 1 (Reference) in dedicated (non-acoustically treated...) room:

Mains: Paradigm Reference Studio 80 v2
Center: Paradigm Reference Studio CC-570
Side Surrounds (A): Paradigm ADP-370 v3
Surrounds (B): Paradigm Reference Studio 20 v2
Surrounds (Back): Paradigm Reference Studio 20 v2
Subwoofer: HSU Research VTF-3 MKII.

Rotel RMB-1075 amp powering CC-570 (passive biamp), Rotel RB-1080 amp powering mains (biwired), Denon AVR-5803 drives all 6 surrounds speakers simultaneously for movies, surrrounds B only for 5-channel stereo, SACD and DVD-Audio.

System 2 in the family room:

Mains: Paradigm Monitor 9 v2
Center: Paradigm CC-370 v2
Surrounds: Paradigm Mini Monitor v2
Subwoofer: HSU Research VTF-2 MKII

Outlaw Model 7100 drives all speakers, Yamaha RX-V2200 receiver used as a pre/pro, Outlaw ICBM-1 between the Yammi and the Outlaw amp. Looking to upgrade to a better receiver or dedicated pre/pro in the near future.

-Luis

hifisponge

06-06-06, 07:11 PM

hifisponge

06-06-06, 07:33 PM

Hey Tim,
You will notice a huge gap stepping from 100 to 40s
Every ear is different and I found mids and lows on S4 where no competition to S8
Because mid speaker is also used as a low and vice versa, you loose on clarity and respons at mid level on S4
60s and 40s are the same, with different boxes around the speakers.
Acoustically there may be a bit difference because of box size, but overall they are the same speaker
Listen allot before you consider it.

To each their own, but I think you overstate the differences between the sound quality of the S8's and S4's (and the 40's and 100's). Tonal balance will play tricks on you and if you are comparing the two as-is, with no sub, the S8 will definitely sound better balanced because of the bass extension. Now add a sub to the S4's (properly integrated) and tell me you can hear anything but the slightest difference (if any) in the midrange, except at the highest volumes in the biggest rooms.

Compare the Total Harmonic Distortion measurements between the S2 and the S8 in the links below. In the midrange there is virtually no difference in performance (clarity).

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/paradigm_signature_s2/

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/paradigm_signature_s8/

For what it is worth, I owned the S8's for three months and traded them for the S4's because I could get better better (smoother) overall in-room bass response from the S4 / sub combo than I could with the S8s and sub. I have no regrets in regards to the midrange. I'm not saying that there isn't a difference, but if there is, I believe it to be slight.

It is my experience that each speaker model within any of the Paradigm lines has been designed for an intended purpose. Some for small rooms or lower output, while the larger models are for larger rooms or for people that want a full range speaker. This is contrary to the belief that going from the 40 to the 100 constitutes some sort of "upgrade". If you want and upgrade, you move to the Signature line and choose the speaker model in that line that best fits your application.

Gooddoc

06-06-06, 09:02 PM

Relax. It will be OK . . . :rolleyes:

Seriously. Just tell your dealer you would like an in-home audtion of the S8s. With the money you plan to spend, he should understand that you aren't going to buy the car without first test driving it.

DID YOU SAY RELAX? I AM RELAXED!! :eek:

elmac

06-06-06, 09:05 PM

It is my experience that each speaker model within any of the Paradigm lines has been designed for an intended purpose. Some for small rooms or lower output, while the larger models are for larger rooms or for people that want a full range speaker. This is contrary to the belief that going from the 40 to the 100 constitutes some sort of "upgrade". If you want and upgrade, you move to the Signature line and choose the speaker model in that line that best fits your application.
Agree with that
I have listem to them as a stereo speakers there for I could hear a large diffrence, I don't like to use sub for music, and thats y this is the way I responded. S4 sounded great in HT setup with a sub, but thats not what I'm looking for, and thats y I would like to see S6 as a 3 way speaker.

miltimj

06-07-06, 11:27 AM

To each their own, but I think you overstate the differences between the sound quality of the S8's and S4's (and the 40's and 100's). Tonal balance will play tricks on you and if you are comparing the two as-is, with no sub, the S8 will definitely sound better balanced because of the bass extension. Now add a sub to the S4's (properly integrated) and tell me you can hear anything but the slightest difference (if any) in the midrange, except at the highest volumes in the biggest rooms.
What I'm curious about is comparing 40/S4 vs 100/S8 without a sub and crossed over, so the low end is taken out of the picture. The sub would be the same either way, so I can just remove it from the equation. Crossed over at 80 or 100Hz would be interesting to compare the two, since the 100/S8 is essentially added bottom end. Without that advantage though, how does the mid & upper range sound compared with the 40/S4?

That is what I'm curious about finding out.

Gooddoc

06-07-06, 12:18 PM

hifisponge

06-07-06, 01:35 PM

What I'm curious about is comparing 40/S4 vs 100/S8 without a sub and crossed over, so the low end is taken out of the picture. The sub would be the same either way, so I can just remove it from the equation. Crossed over at 80 or 100Hz would be interesting to compare the two, since the 100/S8 is essentially added bottom end. Without that advantage though, how does the mid & upper range sound compared with the 40/S4?

That is what I'm curious about finding out.

As you probably know, the midrange driver in the 40's is the same as the 100's. However, in the 100's it is placed in it's own metal enclosure and it is crossed over the to the woofer at 300 Hz, making it a dedicated midrange driver as opposed to the mid/bass driver in the 40's. The arrangement is similar in the S4's vs the S8's. Technically, this should reduce intermodulation distortion and improve clarity of the midrange.

Having owned both the S8's and the S4's, it has been my experience that the difference in midrange clarity is minimal, if it is perceptible at all. I qualify that statement because while I owned the S8's for 3 months, I sold them off before I bought the S4's and didn't have the chance to listen to them side by side.

Crossed over to a sub, I have never had any complaints or concerns about the sound quality of the S4's, even at the highest volumes. I simply haven't been able to overdrive them to a point of any audible distortion in my 23 x 13 x 9 room (the room also has an open doorway the kitchen). Still, if I hadn't run into problems with the bass response of the S8's I would still own them. Then again, I really do like the less assuming size of the S4's. I waffle. :rolleyes:

At the risk of sounding like I'm on a rant, I also have to say that I think the S4's (and 40's) are the perfect compromise for a stand mounted speaker. Most stand mounts only have a single mid/bass driver, and the extra driver in the S4's / 40's increases the overall power handling capability considerably. This makes them great for high-volume action-movie viewing. :D

In the end, you still need to listen for yourself, but the 40's are definitely worth considering.

Cheers,

(The other) Tim

miltimj

06-07-06, 04:05 PM

milti,

I think HiFi answered that in his reply. Having dug a little deeper with research into the Signature line, I can tell you all the electronics(i.e. drivers, tweeters, etc.) are identical across the entire line. By crossing the S8 over at 80 or 100 Hz, you are eliminating the 3rd crossover and the dedicated woofers from the equation. This leaves the impact of the enclosure and the differences in crossovers to account for differences in sound that should be heard. I pretty sure what HiFi is saying is that that difference is very minimal if the sub is properly crossed. Perhaps, however, I'm misinterpreting your question.
What he mentioned was a comparison between the two without a sub, but did not mention the crossover. What I'm specifically curious about is everything above a typical bass driver crossover point.

As Tim mentioned, I will need to listen for myself... Thank you both for the info and recommendations.. It looks as though I may not be as crazy as I thought for "downgrading" to the 40s to gain a few other benefits, if very minimal AQ is lost.

rynberg

06-07-06, 05:59 PM

By crossing the S8 over at 80 or 100 Hz, you are eliminating the 3rd crossover and the dedicated woofers from the equation.

Not. The x-over for the woofers is 250 Hz. Since x-overs are not brick walls, the S8 will still be covering the 60-500 Hz range. This is where most of the energy in music and HT occurs!

4 dedicated woofers vs 1 dedicated + 1 mid/woofer. I think you can see the dynamic capability difference there. The question is whether or not you need that much dynamic capability or not.

oztech

06-07-06, 07:49 PM

Gooddoc

06-07-06, 09:53 PM

Not. The x-over for the woofers is 250 Hz. Since x-overs are not brick walls, the S8 will still be covering the 60-500 Hz range. This is where most of the energy in music and HT occurs!

4 dedicated woofers vs 1 dedicated + 1 mid/woofer. I think you can see the dynamic capability difference there. The question is whether or not you need that much dynamic capability or not.

You are correct. I was lazy in my thoughts. Being that I am often learning as I contribute to these forums, I should have done more homework before responding in that post. I appreciate your input.

It seems that the S8's additional "dynamic capability" may only be fully realized in large rooms(and block parties :D ) at very high SPL's. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it seems to me that in the vast majority of HT setups the rear/side speaker dynamics and room size would largely negate the advantage over the S4's. For 2 channel listening however, I will say advantage S8.

What he mentioned was a comparison between the two without a sub, but did not mention the crossover. What I'm specifically curious about is everything above a typical bass driver crossover point.

As I said, perhaps I misinterpreted your question. Sorry bud. It made me chuckle though......I answered the wrong question with a wrong answer!

hifisponge

06-08-06, 12:18 AM

What he mentioned was a comparison between the two without a sub, but did not mention the crossover. What I'm specifically curious about is everything above a typical bass driver crossover point.

As Tim mentioned, I will need to listen for myself... Thank you both for the info and recommendations.. It looks as though I may not be as crazy as I thought for "downgrading" to the 40s to gain a few other benefits, if very minimal AQ is lost.

I use an 80 Hz crossover. I think it is the best setting as it maximizes dynamic capability of the S4's without resulting in localization of the sub. You could go with a lower crossover with the 100's. Either way the 4 bass drivers in the 100's are still being used for most of the upper and midbass (from 300 Hz down to the crossover point to the sub), so it's not like you are throwing those drivers away if you use a sub.

I still think that unless you have a very large room, there is a good possibility that the S4's / sub combo will give you all the loudness / dynamic capability most people need. I'm listening to some bass heavy electronica right now at dance party levels and couldn't be happier.

I'm sure you've read these reviews, but they are a great reminder of how well liked the smaller studio and signature speakers are.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue22/paradigm_studio_20v3.htm
"I was shocked at their (Studio 20) near-super-speaker performance . . ."
"The mids are more present and dynamic, more detailed, and more sophisticated."

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_2/paradigm-reference-20-470-speakers-5-2005.html
"The critical midrange (of the Studio 20) was remarkably unbiased, allowing such elements as female vocals a level of believability that left me breathless."

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/1104paradigm/
"The S4 is a fast speaker, not in the least challenged by transients, as proved by its reproduction of the powerful percussion on "Incident at Neshabar."

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/paradigm_signature_s2.htm
"Then there’s the way the S2 handles the mids, which, as with the highs, sound so transparent it’s like there’s not even a driver there. As a result, voices project almost magically."

"The Hip’s track proved that the S2s can rock -- and play Gyproc-cracking loud if you want them to -- but I was most taken with Connie Kaldor’s "If You Could Read My Mind." With perfect tonal balance, complete freedom from sibilance, and pristine purity, this song showed that the S2s are as adept at female vocal as they are at male. Kaldor’s voice was thrust center stage with ultra-sharp precision, texture and presence that resembled life, not hi-fi."

http://www.audio-ideas.com/reviews/loudspeakers/paradigm-s4.html
"Another 2-disc set which showed off the S4s well, was sent to me by Ray Kimber, all recorded using his new IsoMikeTM system that puts a baffle between a pair of omni mikes. These are amazingly realistic and dynamic recordings that shine with the fast, precise Signature sound."

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=580&page_number=2
"The Studio 40 v.3 array excelled with challenging movie soundtracks like that of Enemy at the Gates . . . As Chapter 6 opens, a train pulls in noisily straight toward you, exiting and then stopping diagonally to your left. As the train rumbles to a stop, its squeaks and groans echo into the surround channels, blending in with low, ambient music. I listened to this passage again and again, straining to hear any imperfections, but the presentation was impressively smooth. Nice — very nice."

http://www.audioenz.co.nz/2003/paradigm_studio-40.shtml
". . . This work contains wide-ranging dynamics, including sections where Mahler wanted the musicians to play as loud as possible. A speaker needs to be good to reproduce this without turning harsh; the Studio 40 managed this without any apparent effort."

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/loudspeakers/faceoff3_d.php
". . .the Studio 40's really seemed to excel in a larger living room environment, slightly toed in, especially when mated with a good subwoofer. They played amply loud in the larger room and welcomed more power . . .

hifisponge

06-08-06, 12:43 AM

Agree with that
I have listem to them as a stereo speakers there for I could hear a large diffrence, I don't like to use sub for music, and thats y this is the way I responded. S4 sounded great in HT setup with a sub, but thats not what I'm looking for, and thats y I would like to see S6 as a 3 way speaker.

I can understand you're desire for an S6 type model, but, honestly, and with all due respect, I've never understood the "I don't use subs for music" stance. If as sub is properly integrated (crossover, phase, distance, placement) it should be no different than a full range speaker. It will also give you the flexibility to place the sub where you get the smoothest bass response. If you really want to emmulate a set of floor-standing, full-range speakers, get two subs and place them near to each S4.

I'm not trying to argue with you, only to help you consider other possibilities, as I think you'll be waiting a while for an S6. As they say, "Where there is a will there is a way." :D

PS: Have you checked out the Velodyne DD series of subs? They feature a built in Real-Time Analyzer (RTA) and EQ. By hooking the sub up to a TV, the RTA lets you "see" the in-room bass response. I can't tell you how much it has helped me integrate the sub with the S4s, because you can the crossover region between the sub and the satellite. See a dip in the response near the crossover point? Just adjust the crossover point or phase until it goes away. Viola! Perfect integration. Have a 10dB hump at 40Hz due to a room resonance? Move the sub until it is minimized, or use the EQ to smooth the response. I've had many people tell me it doesn't seem like a I have a sub because it sounds so balanced, and not like the rumbly, boomy sound most associate with a sub. Oh, and the Velodyne DDs also have 5 presets. This helps when you want to tame or boost the output for those odd recording that don't sound balanced normally.

Cheers,

- Tim

hifisponge

06-08-06, 01:10 AM

miltimj

06-08-06, 01:56 PM

Though I know it seems very odd, I think it would be a better test to eliminate the bass, since it's truly equal on both sides of the equation/comparison. You can get a better feel for the differences between the speakers in that way. Of course, I'd still listen to them both with the sub for confirmation, but the bass may just be distracting. You can also turn them up louder to hear the differences w/higher SPLs.

Good point about the extra drivers in the 100/S8 still being used for the mid-range. That's what I'm curious to find out -- the differences in mid/upper (sorry.. broken record by now). I'll let you know if/when I audition this comparison, but it will be quite a while before I get the chance.

Thanks for the tip on the disc.. I'll have to check that out sometime.

hifisponge

06-08-06, 02:22 PM

^^^No it doesn't seem odd at all, and I think as long as you listen both ways (with and without a sub) then it should give you a broader perspective. Good luck on the 40's vs 100's shootout, and be sure to post the results when you get around to it.

051473

06-08-06, 10:21 PM

miltimj,
It would be an interesting comparison you are talking about and it is obvious many here would like to hear about the results.

Back to your original post on the subject. You said two main advantages of downgrading from 100s to 40s would be size and cost. I would think it will cost you money to sell your 100s, most certainly for a loss, and ship them somewhere and then buy 40s. The cost of keeping the speakers you have is zero.

About the size issue. It sounds like you will be building, or at least modifying, a room for your gear. Why not just design the room to accommodate the 100s? The only reason I can see to go from 100s to 40s would be if you are going to use 40s all the way around and match your front and surround speakers. Maybe not a bad idea for a dedicated HT. But I just think music would suffer, especially in the midrange.

Someone once told me, "Get the biggest damn speakers you can fit in the car." :p

elmac

06-08-06, 11:06 PM

Ok its official
No S6 on the horizon, but Paradigm is looking at it from 2 ways
1) $ to large of the gap from S4 to S8(this would be easily fixed lower the price of S8 like this would ever happen :) )
2) people like more than 1 choice in towers.
For now I think I will go with S4 and could use them for Back Surr when S6 comes out. (as long my dealer gives me a good price on them)
What would you recommend for Centre? to go with S4
THX

miltimj

06-08-06, 11:13 PM

I agree that downgrading to the 40s will cost me.. :( I wish I would have thought about it in the first place. One of the reasons is because I'd like to do an IB sub setup behind a proscenium wall in the front, and need the space, ideally not taken up by the large 100s. If I can limit it height-wise, I could have plenty of space on the bottom and top (all the way across) for the "enclosure". Otherwise, the bottom of the 100s will need to sit below the bottom of the screen for optimal tweeter height.

I don't know what future house I'll put the dedicated room in (will buy it in 9-12 months), but I'm pretty sure based on those we've looked at recently, that I won't have a layout that will allow an adjacent room to be used for the rear wave space (nor do I necessarily want to use a room for that).

This is a significant reason why I was leaning toward downgrading, but I also saw a few other advantages, such as possibly more accurate reproduction, and I need to get the center anyway. I thought about moving the 100s to a different room, but that'd just add more cost. We'll have to see.. thanks for the input.

hifisponge

06-09-06, 12:09 AM

miltimj,
... The only reason I can see to go from 100s to 40s would be if you are going to use 40s all the way around and match your front and surround speakers. Maybe not a bad idea for a dedicated HT. But I just think music would suffer, especially in the midrange.
Someone once told me, "Get the biggest damn speakers you can fit in the car." :p

Hmmm, well . .. my experience tells me the midrange doesn't suffer. (Yes, to some extent I am defending my purchase by responding to your comment, but it goes deeper than that.)

You see, about a year ago I started a year long search for speakers to replace my previous HT speakers (M&K). I certainly didn't think it would take me a year to find the right speakers, but I wanted them to last, something I would be happy with for years. Those M&K's were great for home theater but they sounded a bit lean and bright on music. In the process of trying to find a more "musical" set of speakers, I've owned and replaced some very fine floorstanding speakers. Martin Logan, Vienna Acoustics, Aerial Acoustics, Kef Reference, Revel, and Dynaudio to be specific. I lost a considerable amount of money buying and selling off all of those speakers, but damn it, audio is a passionate hobby of mine and I wasn't going to compromise this time. :eek:

The search ended with my purchase of the Paradigm S8s. At least that is what I thought at the time. As I have written here several times, I sold the S8s to get the S4's because I couldn't position the S8's in the room anywhere that would give me smooth bass response. I certainly gave second thought to parting with the S8's for the S4's. Psychologically it seemed like I was downgrading. However I listened with an open mind, and in actuality, it surely was not a downgrade. My point is that the midrange is just as important to me as it is the next audiophile, and the S4s play second fiddle none of the speakers I owned before them and the difference between the S8's and S4's is slight at best. My other point is that bigger and more expensive does not always mean better.

Honestly, it doesn't matter to me whether someone finds that the 100's suit their needs better than the S4's, but I think it is irresponsible to make general claims they "must" be better than the 40's because they are bigger, have a dedicated midrange, etc. The reviews out there show that both are great speakers with great a midrange.

hifisponge

06-09-06, 12:27 AM

Lasalle

06-09-06, 11:21 AM

I've been very happy with the C3. Besides the C5 is a monster and is only really needed for the largest spaces.

I've been reading this thread with alot of interest. I've been planning my larger HT for the last few months now that 1080p front projection and DVD's are coming into the market. My initial question is on the C5 vs the C3 with the S4's. The theater occupys a 20'x14' (8 1/2' ceiling) corner of a 1200 SQFT multi -purpose lower level room. The use will be about 90% Movies and sports events. The speakers will also be paired with 2 Velodyne DD-18's daisy chained. Given the center channel prevalence on Movies would the C5 be a better consideration in this set up or is there a issue with the S4/C5 timber matching?

Also I noticed you have the top end Denon driving your system. I have the 4806 driving my great room system and have been very impressed with the updated Auddssey room correlation processing. I was considering another 4806 with an Anthem 3 way amp to drive the front three speakers. I read earlier you were considering going to separates and was curious if you had tried a separate amp with your Denon and were not impressed with the results.

hifisponge

06-09-06, 12:53 PM

JohnGZ28

06-09-06, 03:20 PM

I've been reading this thread with alot of interest. I've been planning my larger HT for the last few months now that 1080p front projection and DVD's are coming into the market. My initial question is on the C5 vs the C3 with the S4's. The theater occupys a 20'x14' (8 1/2' ceiling) corner of a 1200 SQFT multi -purpose lower level room. The use will be about 90% Movies and sports events. The speakers will also be paired with 2 Velodyne DD-18's daisy chained. Given the center channel prevalence on Movies would the C5 be a better consideration in this set up or is there a issue with the S4/C5 timber matching?

Also I noticed you have the top end Denon driving your system. I have the 4806 driving my great room system and have been very impressed with the updated Auddssey room correlation processing. I was considering another 4806 with an Anthem 3 way amp to drive the front three speakers. I read earlier you were considering going to separates and was curious if you had tried a separate amp with your Denon and were not impressed with the results.

That's going to be a very nice system when finished.

Just my .02

I got to play with an Anthem amp for a weekend with my 4806 and really liked the combo. Enough that when the funds allow i'm going to check out a few 2 and 3 channel amps with the 4806.

In your situation I would give a in home listen to the new Anthem AVM 40 or 50 with an A2 A5 combo and swap your 4806 in the mix to find out what sound you like best.

Also I'd get the C5 just because. :)

Lasalle

06-09-06, 03:28 PM

Lasalle - My room is 23 x 13 x 9, and I have NEVER been able to overdrive the C3. It has plenty of action movie power (output capability). However, if you do go with the C5, you don't have to worry about timbre matching. All of the Signature line speakers are voiced the same.

For your room size I would also recommend two DD15's. I use just one, and it is more than enough. I would like to add a second one to help even out the overall in-room bass response, but I certainly don't need it for added power. And, while I'm not normally one to equate bigger subs withe a "slower" sound, I used to own the DD18 and I found I couldn't get it to blend as well with the S4s. The DD15 sounds tighter to me.

Cheers,

- Tim
Tim, thanks for you quick response. Your point about the DD-15's blending better is well taken. I had a similar experience with my great room system. The Mythos 1's and 8 have 5 1/4 " drivers. Two DD-12's sounded tighter than a DD-15 there as well. I was concerned about the overall size of the multi-purpose room. The theater is in a 14' x 20' corner, but the over all room is very open, next to the theater is a 13'x 25' bar area and behind the theater is a 35'x 20' Pool and game room, all very open (one support pillar ). I thought I might need the DD-18's (and the C5) to get bass weight and dynamics in that much open space.

Also I'm interested in your thoughts on my Denon question---
" I noticed you have the top end Denon driving your system. I have the 4806 driving my great room system and have been very impressed with the updated Auddssey room correlation processing. I was considering another 4806 with an Anthem 3 way amp to drive the front three speakers. I read earlier you were considering going to separates and was curious if you had tried a separate amp with your Denon and were not impressed with the results".

Thanks again, Brad

Lasalle

06-09-06, 04:04 PM

That's going to be a very nice system when finished.

Just my .02

I got to play with an Anthem amp for a weekend with my 4806 and really liked the combo. Enough that when the funds allow i'm going to check out a few 2 and 3 channel amps with the 4806.

In your situation I would give a in home listen to the new Anthem AVM 40 or 50 with an A2 A5 combo and swap your 4806 in the mix to find out what sound you like best.

Also I'd get the C5 just because. :)

Thanks John,
I'd look at the AVM 50, but after hearing what the Auddsey did in my great room , I would want a pre with auto room correlation. At 10K the TAC is too expensive and too limited in functions. My great room is 30x18' with 20ft ceilings. The back is an 18' semi-circle of 10' windows no curtians and wood floors to boot. The initial sound was terrible, reverb-city. The Auddssey processing eliminated the reverb and locked in solid imaging, the software update greatly improved the sub-woofer integration. My wife owns the decor so I get zero sound treatment. The multi-purpose rec room where the theater is going has the same kind of challenges as the great room. If you know of a AV pre under 5K with auto room correlation I'd would try it.
Thanks, Brad

JohnGZ28

06-09-06, 06:38 PM

Thanks John,
I'd look at the AVM 50, but after hearing what the Auddsey did in my great room , I would want a pre with auto room correlation. At 10K the TAC is too expensive and too limited in functions. My great room is 30x18' with 20ft ceilings. The back is an 18' semi-circle of 10' windows no curtians and wood floors to boot. The initial sound was terrible, reverb-city. The Auddssey processing eliminated the reverb and locked in solid imaging, the software update greatly improved the sub-woofer integration. My wife owns the decor so I get zero sound treatment. The multi-purpose rec room where the theater is going has the same kind of challenges as the great room. If you know of a AV pre under 5K with auto room correlation I'd would try it.
Thanks, Brad

I don't think you can go wrong with the 4806. I'm very happy with mine. Just make sure you get a 4806MKII version.

mpr86

06-09-06, 07:08 PM

Hey there guys,

I've been looking into a Paradigm setup for my home. I'm fairly new to the audio realm of the home theater so bear with me here.

I set my price range for a home theater in the range of $2000, and went from there. What I came up with is the following setup:

Paradigm Performance Series:
http://www.paradigm.com/Website/SiteParadigmProduct/ParadigmModels/Performance/performance.html

L/R Front x 2:Titan
L/R Rear x 2: Titan
Center x 1: CC-270

The subwoofer comes from their PDR series:
http://www.paradigm.com/Website/SiteParadigmProduct/ParadigmModels/SubWoofers/PDR_Series.html

Subwoofer x 1: PDR-10

And finally, from Yamaha's RX-V Series

Receiver x 1: Yamaha RX-V 2600

All of this will be connected to my Pioneer 1130-HD 50" Plasma. The room size is approx ~250 sq ft. In addition, do you guys think the rears will be fine with the Titan's or should I go with Surround speakers for the rear? I'm hoping this a good setup, as I'm not a audiophile and don't know too much. What would you guys go with assuming you had a $2K budget?

In addition, when I had this setup demoed for me, they weren’t really cranked up that high; this setup thought should sound fairly good though for my size room right?

Thanks!

hifisponge

06-10-06, 12:00 AM

Tim, thanks for you quick response. Your point about the DD-15's blending better is well taken. I had a similar experience with my great room system. The Mythos 1's and 8 have 5 1/4 " drivers. Two DD-12's sounded tighter than a DD-15 there as well. I was concerned about the overall size of the multi-purpose room. The theater is in a 14' x 20' corner, but the over all room is very open, next to the theater is a 13'x 25' bar area and behind the theater is a 35'x 20' Pool and game room, all very open (one support pillar ). I thought I might need the DD-18's (and the C5) to get bass weight and dynamics in that much open space.

Also I'm interested in your thoughts on my Denon question---
" I noticed you have the top end Denon driving your system. I have the 4806 driving my great room system and have been very impressed with the updated Auddssey room correlation processing. I was considering another 4806 with an Anthem 3 way amp to drive the front three speakers. I read earlier you were considering going to separates and was curious if you had tried a separate amp with your Denon and were not impressed with the results".

Thanks again, Brad

Hello again -

Well, knowing now that you are dealing with an open "great room", that could make you a candidate for the larger C5 and the larger DD sub. I think it still depends on how close you plan to sit to the speakers. The S4's and C3 could still do the job. The sub, however, is theoreticaly going to have to fill that entire room with sound, so you may need the DD18. Honestly, I got rid of the DD18 while it was still fairly new, so I may not have had it dialed in correctly. The DD18 is huge and it just physically dominated the room. The Stereophile reviewer had no complaints with the blend of his B&W 805 stand mounts and the DD18. I guess there is only one way to find out and that is an in-home audition. After all, this conversation is just a starting point.

About my receiver. I did own the NAD Master series seperates for about a week but two things kept me from sticking with those seperates. The prepro was clunky to use and they didn't sound quality was noticabley better than my Denon. It was quite surprising really. I expected much more from an amp that alone weighed 40 pounds more than the Denon. With that said, I'm waiting to see what Rotel is going to do with their replacement for the 1098 prepro. It is supposed to have room correction, HDMI inputs and video scaling. Now that I think about it, you can get all of that with the 4806. I may still go that way (with the 4806), but I want to explore my options and see if seperates give me an improvement in sound. I love this hobby and I'm willing to pay a premium for even slightly better sound.

hifisponge

06-10-06, 12:22 AM

mpr86 -

While this is a Paradigm thread, and I'm a Paradigm supporter, I would recommend checking out a few other companies. My recommendations would be the Infinity Primus line, Aperion Audio, Energy, Boston Acoustics, Mirage OmniSat and KEF (if you can find them). They all make very good performing, valued priced gear. Only you can determine which is best for you-- by listening to each. When you listen to them, bring music you know and like. This will help greatly in your decision making because you know what you expect that music to sound like. It also helps if you start with two speaker models using a single music track, switching between them until you have a winner. Then put the winner up against the next speaker and keep repeating until you have your choice.

Let me know if that helps, or if there is any other advice I may be able to offer.

Cheers,

- Tim

miltimj

06-10-06, 01:19 AM

What would you guys go with assuming you had a $2K budget?
I agree with the other Tim (hifi)... Except I'd recommend checking out Ascends for price/performance at that budget level. They're internet direct, but they have a great return policy (if you even need it), and there are quite a few owners on the forum that would be happy to let you audition theirs.

hifisponge

06-10-06, 01:23 AM

I agree with the other Tim (hifi)... Except I'd recommend checking out Ascends for price/performance at that budget level. They're internet direct, but they have a great return policy (if you even need it), and there are quite a few owners on the forum that would be happy to let you audition theirs.

Hey Tim! Great call. I knew I was forgetting one.

051473

06-10-06, 02:29 AM

I think it is irresponsible to make general claims they "must" be better than the 40's because they are bigger, have a dedicated midrange, etc.

I did not say they "must" be better. I was not suggesting bigger is automatically better. I think what sounds best to you is best for you. Whether its 6ft tall towers or tiny cubes from :mad:Bose:mad:. Well, maybe not the :mad:Bose:mad:.

Hmmm, well . .. my experience tells me the midrange doesn't suffer. (Yes, to some extent I am defending my purchase by responding to your comment, but it goes deeper than that.)

Maybe it is different with the Sigs. I did not audition them. I did audition 40s, 60s, and 100s when I was upgrading from Monitor 7s. I thought the 100s had a fuller, more powerful sound. I thought music was more detailed. I thought the dedicated highs, mids and bass of the 100s made a big difference over the others. I feel going from 100s to 40s is a downgrade. Just giving my opinion here. With that said, if someone loves the sound of 40s with a sub and it fits their room, then thats what they should buy.

hifisponge

06-10-06, 02:43 AM

^^^Cool. I wasn't trying to take you to task. I've just seen many well-meaning audio enthusiasts draw conclusions about sound quality that don't fully understand how easily you can sway the results one way or the other through differences in set-up or improper set up. The studio series use the same drivers throughout their range, just more or less of them and with diiferent crossover points. There's no doubt that the 100's would sound fuller than the 40's, they are full range and the 40's aren't. I'm confident that with carefully controlled set-up of 40's + sub vs 100's + sub, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference except in overall output.

miltimj

06-10-06, 03:32 AM

hifisponge

06-10-06, 05:06 PM

I couldn't have said it better, Tim. That's what I'm hoping for, so I can get more space behind the front wall for a huge sub enclosure. So I could actually say that going from the 100s to 40s improved my low end.. ;)

It's funny that you would say that, as that is exactly the reason I went with the S4's (and a smaller sub). My goal was to get a better (smoother in room response) low end. And as backwards as it sounds, trading the S8's out for the S4's was the right solution.

wrg2

06-10-06, 09:42 PM

Wow...who would have thought that this thread would have come this far :) As the originator of this thread about a year ago, I can see that there are many like me who have great enthusiasm for Paradigm speakers. To update, I currently still have my birdseye maple S2's, C3, and ADP's in the rear and will continue to do so indefinitely, or until I move and present a new audio canvas to color using cutting edge equipment. Currently, my room is small and only requires needs that the S2,C3, ADP combo can provide, and of course with the Velodyne sub. I've been extremely pleased to date, and mentioned previously my equipment included B&W Nautilus 805 series, HTM, and 805b's in the rear. Though B&W was spot-on with my Yamaha DSP A-1, with the new Arcam gear, the Paradigm's seem to bring out the best. Paired with the Paradigm's I use an Arcam AVR300, Arcam FMJ DV29 and an Arcam FMJ CD33 and to date couldn't have asked for more...for my size room that is! For me it was a great choice coming from being a long-time B&W owner to Paradigm, and this is credited to my dealer who showed me the way in spite of my bias towards B&W. I'm glad that this thread still has what appears to be a lot of life, and due in no small part to people like Tim (miltimj) deafgoose and others who continually stir Paradigm pool again and again. What else can I say except...onward, fellow Paradigm users, we're all on the same path, a path of better sound and continued search for perfection :D Thanks for contributing ;)

jkhome

06-14-06, 08:19 AM

Paging Kal Rubinson, or anyone else with a similar experience.

In your Stereophile review of the Studio 60v3s, you mention using “Real Traps” room treatment to help even out the bass response of the 60s. Can you elaborate in how many traps, placement, bass frequencies effected, etc.?

I have decided to trade my Studio 20v3s for a pair of 60s. The 20s in my 14 x 23 x 8 room were slightly boomy, until I got the positioning right. I expect the same problem with the 60s, but I may be more restricted due to the additional cabinet depth.

PS... And thank you wrg2 for starting such an informative thread!

Kal Rubinson

06-14-06, 11:24 AM

What I used is specific to my room, not necessarily to the speakers. You should get some way to measure your room/system now that you have it set up. The options I recommend are Room EQ Wizard or ETF software for PC, both with associated hardware (mic and preamp).

Kal

jkhome

06-14-06, 04:40 PM

The options I recommend are Room EQ Wizard or ETF software for PC, both with associated hardware (mic and preamp).

Kal

I do have the EQ wizard, along with the Mobile pre USB and EC8000 mic, and plan on using it. My version is kinda old, (how many have there been now? :) )probably should download the newest.

Thanks, John

mwz26

06-14-06, 06:45 PM

antman27

06-14-06, 07:46 PM

hifisponge

06-15-06, 01:39 AM

Hello all,
I am thinking about upgrading my surrounds -I now have Cinema V1
They are mounted kind of high ( about 7Ft ) on MB60s angled down pointing into the listening area.
My Sofa is against the back wall that the speakers are mounted to
Will Cinema 90 v.3 be noticable improvement ? I was thinking about Atoms BUT I am afraid that since I am against the wall already they will stick out far passed ear level . ADPs would not be a good choice against the back walls right ?
Thanks ~

I can't comment on the sound quality difference between the different Cinema speakers, but I can say that I prefer the ADP bipolar surrounds on my back wall. They tend to call less attention to themselves when you are sitting that close and they spread the sound around nicely. I've got my couch about 2 feet out from the back wall and I've tried direct radiating speakers (normal speakers) back there but they tended to be distracting. Some like to really hear the sound coming from each rear speaker, but I prefer the envelopment that the ADPs provide. To each their own though and only you can decide which you like best.

051473

06-15-06, 10:46 AM

Im eyeing Titans for the front and Atoms for the rear, can you all help me with a receiver suggestion?

Potentials are Onkyo 504, Onk 603, H/K 230, Denon 1906, Panny XR57.

or any others in that general range. Thanks!

You can find the Onkyo TX-SR703 in the 500 range. I am using this reciever to drive Studio 100s and a CC-570 with no complaints.

miltimj

06-15-06, 11:20 AM

You can find the Onkyo TX-SR703 in the 500 range. I am using this reciever to drive Studio 100s and a CC-570 with no complaints.
I have the exact same setup (except the 702), and likewise, I'm happy. I'll get external amps eventually, but it really does sound great the way it is. Just don't crank them at high SPLs.

Evangelo2

06-15-06, 11:21 AM

hifisponge

06-15-06, 05:43 PM

Hey Guys,
I am wondering what you guys paid for a pair of Studio 100 V3's. I am thinking af buying a used pair and want to gauge how good a price Im getting.
Would you guys buy used? I think I don't get the Paradigm warranty like this by if a lot of money is saved then it may be worth it.
-Evangelo2

It has been my experience that used Paradigm speakers go for 30-40% off retail, depending on their age, condition, and general availibility.

051473

06-15-06, 08:15 PM

Hey Guys,
I am wondering what you guys paid for a pair of Studio 100 V3's. I am thinking af buying a used pair and want to gauge how good a price Im getting.
Would you guys buy used? I think I don't get the Paradigm warranty like this by if a lot of money is saved then it may be worth it.
-Evangelo2

I got my CC-570 used for $620 from someone on this forum. Buying used worked for me. I think hifi's 30-40% off retail is correct. Follow this link for retail prices.

http://www.bradfordshifi.com/prices.html

jkhome

06-15-06, 08:48 PM

I couldn't have said it better, Tim. That's what I'm hoping for, so I can get more space behind the front wall for a huge sub enclosure. So I could actually say that going from the 100s to 40s improved my low end.. ;)

I don't know Tim, a while back I asked ThomasW at the Cult of the IBs if my Maggie MMGs would mate well with an IB subwoofer. His opinion was it didn't go down low enough. He felt that the mains should go down a solid octave below the x-over point (40hz if using a 80 hz crossover point). Of course the MMGs lost it around 70 hz. The 20s I had did better, but not by much. Maybe the 40s will go low enough.

I just upgraded from 20s to 60s, in part because I too plan on installing an IB sub. I figured the extra $800 I saved from buying the 100s will get some decent IB drivers. I already have an Aragon 8008 BB amp and Behringer BFD for the IB, all I need are the drivers and a trip to the Home Depot, I'll be good to go. :)

miltimj

06-15-06, 11:26 PM

Good point, JK. The crossover isn't a stopping point, only a rolloff. I'll have to take that into consideration.

I've been tossing around the idea of building some speakers now, too. I love the 100s, but am not sure that I want to give up 3' of depth or so of the room... I could build them myself and make the enclosure wider instead of deeper, and gain about 2' more depth of the room. I know, it's crazy to think I could come close to Paradigm's speakers, but it's worth playing with, even if it's just for the challenge. I'd even take a slight decrease in quality, for the additional benefits of DIY (cheaper, a good challenge, increased room depth, and I can make a huge "wall of sound" with a line array and tall ribbon tweeter, like the example on the front of the current PartsExpress catalog).

g0189a

06-16-06, 08:39 AM

Hello all,
I am thinking about upgrading my surrounds -I now have Cinema V1
They are mounted kind of high ( about 7Ft ) on MB60s angled down pointing into the listening area.
My Sofa is against the back wall that the speakers are mounted to
Will Cinema 90 v.3 be noticable improvement ? I was thinking about Atoms BUT I am afraid that since I am against the wall already they will stick out far passed ear level . ADPs would not be a good choice against the back walls right ?
Thanks ~
I have Cinema 110's as my rears mounted 2/3 up the wall so it's a little lower than yours. Top is about 6 1/2 feet off the ground. They work great and am pleased. I have brackets that allow them to be toed in and down a bit. The Atoms looked to be a bit large on the wall so I went with the 110's.

My fronts are Montior 9's and CC-370 with a JBL northridge sub all from a Yamaha RX-V1600.

Glenn

my06si

06-16-06, 09:54 AM

My question is about the cross over frequency I need to set for the 330's & ADP 170's on my Denon 3806 receiver? My setup is: 3*330's for the front and two ADP 170's surround and SVS PB12/Plus sub. Currently fronts are set to 90 Hz cut, rear 80 Hz and LFE is 80 Hz. The 3806 is set to LFE+Main and all speakers set to small. Any comments? I do not want to have a gap between 80 Hz and 110 Hz.

I purchased the SVS sub a week ago because of this forum and could not be happier. :)

miltimj

06-16-06, 11:23 AM

That seems like a pretty decent configuration given those components, my06si. I have the same sub, minus the Plus, and like it a lot as well.

my06si

06-16-06, 12:08 PM

thanks, i am going to stick with these settings unless someone else has a better recommendation for this setup. I have not yet touched the Denon auto eq thing. I am still reading other members post about the 3806 setup in regards to the auto eq.

ken007

06-16-06, 02:07 PM

jkhome

06-16-06, 06:42 PM

I've been tossing around the idea of building some speakers now, too.

Someday, I want to build Orions.

Oh yes, someday, they will be mine! :)

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_challenge.htm

To build a 5.1 or 7.1 system..... sounds like a lot of work, easier just to buy Paradigm. :D

caesar1

06-16-06, 08:37 PM

Studio 20s v.3 and a cc470 up front. Paradigm Atoms as surrounds (5.1 setup).

Sub is an SVS PB10-ISD:

http://ericbeth.home.comcast.net/equip1.jpg

http://ericbeth.home.comcast.net/lsurrnd.jpg

http://ericbeth.home.comcast.net/room1.jpg

http://ericbeth.home.comcast.net/room2.jpg

Dominic S

06-16-06, 10:59 PM

A little help please.

I’ve finally added a set of rear surround speakers to my setup, and I’m wondering if one of you knows what size screw (diameter and thread pitch) the inserts in the bottom of my Studio 20 v.3 accepts. I’ve modified a pair of speaker stands to mount the 20’s on, but I can’t seem to find the proper size screw to fasten the speakers to my stands. I’m guessing that they are metric. Anyone???

jkhome

06-17-06, 09:45 AM

A little help please.

I’m guessing that they are metric. Anyone???

1/4" x 20 threads per "

Dominic S

06-17-06, 05:09 PM

Thanks

I found some knobs at the hardware store that worked great.

Dom

mwz26

06-18-06, 07:48 PM

Well today I went to let my wife listen to the Titans one last time before I bought them. It went horribly. They sounded terrible at a mid-high volume. There was a noticible hiss coming from the highs. Shame is the guy had awesome prices. Im hoping it was his receiver setup or something, he was running a Yamaha but i didnt catch the number. Now i have to find another dealer just to get their reputation back up in her mind...

hifisponge

06-22-06, 07:24 PM

antman27

06-27-06, 01:33 PM

Hello all ,I have mentiond this in the past but I realy think something is wrong .
My Studio 40's seam to have no lows .I normaly set my denons crossover & 80 and set the speakers to small BUT when I Turn off the sub and set the 40's to large there is no bass .
I installed a pair of SA-35 in a friends home and they sound muck thicker -much more lows .
I have checked polarity and it is correct .
Is there any way of testing or a way to get to the bottom of my missing bottom ? OR is this what the 40's can do ?

miltimj

06-27-06, 02:02 PM

It depends on what you mean by "lows". Use a frequency sweep/test tones and an SPL meter to generate some graphs (even if roughly) to determine whether it's in your head or not.

am4966

06-28-06, 01:09 AM

The search is finally over! I have listend to about 5-6 different speaker brands and have decided to stick with Paradigm. When the wife and I first listend to the P'digms we were going to go with the Monitor 11's. But today we went to Audition another speaker and they also had the P'digms so we listend to them again.

So we started with the Monitor 11's and I asked to listen to the Studio 60's since I have read a lot on this thread about everyone liking the 60's. Well listend to them and couldn't really tell to much of a difference over the 11's so we asked to hear the 100's! Well we all know what happens next.

So I have a question.....Since we are going to get the 100, CC570 and ADP 470 and we need a sub the saleman suggested the PDR 12 well in the back of my mind I'm telling myself how do I get the price down so that I can get at least the PW 2200...My thoughts was going with the ADP 370, if I did how much would I lose in quality or since its the surrounds do really worry abou it much. Also what if I went with the CC470 instead of the 570? Not to sure about doing that, but just a thought. Any thoughts or comments would be greatly apperciated.

BTW I know I could go and get a SVS, but since I live in Mich and I would have to pay Tax plus Shipping. Since the Dealer is going to eat the TAX and give me about 15% off. I really would like to get everything from them.....

Another thought is to go to Canada since I live about 10 mins from the border.

AM

Arcanum

06-28-06, 02:56 AM

Come to Canada and give us your money, :)

Seriously though, I just bought the Studio 20's and the CC470 and the retail price is about $150 cheaper than the US retail - but in Canadian dollars. Add the 15% or so you can probably save on top of that and you can probably save quite a bit by crossing the border. Since you're buying a full setup, the dealer will probably be quite willing to deal. The only thing I'm not sure about is how you would avoid paying tax here in Canada when you buy.

oztech

06-28-06, 08:27 AM

stay with the 100 570 adp 470 setup it matches each
other perfectly and you will not be wandering what if.
the only thing i did different is use 20's in the rear i
listen to a lot of multichannel music and i would save
up get the servo=15 it is a beast i am debating getting
it or a dd-18 from velodyne this year.

joekoz

06-28-06, 10:50 AM

I can second the Studio 100, cc570 adp 470 suggestion. I love this set up. I added the servo 15, then a pair of 20's for back surrounds. WOW. Good luck. It's a fine choice IMHO.

am4966

06-28-06, 12:38 PM

oztech

06-28-06, 12:45 PM

don't skimp on the speakers just read the threads
its filled with i wish or time to upgrade or i will be
selling these before i can purchase these signed
guilty party.

swithey

06-28-06, 02:02 PM

Since we are going to get the 100, CC570 and ADP 470 and we need a sub the saleman suggested the PDR 12 well in the back of my mind I'm telling myself how do I get the price down so that I can get at least the PW 2200...My thoughts was going with the ADP 370, if I did how much would I lose in quality or since its the surrounds do really worry abou it much. Also what if I went with the CC470 instead of the 570? Not to sure about doing that, but just a thought. Any thoughts or comments would be greatly apperciated.

I would recommend the CC570 over the CC470. I listened to both and the CC570 seemed much fuller and stonger in the mid-range (which I like). Dialog was more clear and easier to understand. The CC470 sounded a bit weak IMO.

AND.. I cannot tell you how many posts I've read where people upgraded from the CC470 to the CC570. They were all kicking themselves for not buying the CC570 in the 1st place.

Arcanum

06-28-06, 03:56 PM

swithey

06-28-06, 04:34 PM

hifisponge

06-28-06, 04:46 PM

Hi:

I have the cc470 paired with the Studio 20's as my L/R's in my apartment. Would the CC570 be a better choice? I'm very much in favour of better midrange but I was afraid the cc570 would be overpowering to the 20's. If the vocals are better, it sounds like that would be the way to go.

What do you guys think?

Thanks

What matters most about a center speaker is that it match the tonality of your left and right speakers, which the 570 most certainly will. All Paradigm speakers within a given line (in this case the Studio line) are "voiced" to work seamlessly with one another. The 570 does have greater output capability than your 20's, but this again is a good thing. The center speaker typically given 70% of the workload for movie soundtracks. Don't worry though, it won't overpower your smaller L/R speakers, especially if you have all of the speakers set to the same cross over to the sub. Lastly, the 570 is technically a much better speaker than the 470. Because of the dedicated midrange driver in the 570, it has much better off-axis performance than the 470. This means the sound will be the same whether you are in the sweet spot or off to the side.

Do it! :D

Arcanum

06-28-06, 05:01 PM

Hi:

You had me at "What" :)

Thanks for the confirmations guys. I am always very easy to convince when it comes to upgrading. I am on my way to get the 570.

bassbone57

06-28-06, 06:20 PM

So I have a question.....Since we are going to get the 100, CC570 and ADP 470 and we need a sub the saleman suggested the PDR 12 well in the back of my mind I'm telling myself how do I get the price down so that I can get at least the PW 2200...My thoughts was going with the ADP 370, if I did how much would I lose in quality or since its the surrounds do really worry abou it much. Also what if I went with the CC470 instead of the 570? Not to sure about doing that, but just a thought. Any thoughts or comments would be greatly apperciated.
Get the CC570 and ADP470 for sure. With the Studio 100s it is really best. Or instead of the ADP470, Studio 20's would be much better option than the ADP370 for voicing.

As for the sub, the PDR 12 is way, way too weak for that system. the PW2200 or PW2100 would be the least expensive I would do for that system, but I would save up and get the Servo15. I own it, and have owned several other subs, and it blows them all away, no contest.

-K

jkhome

06-28-06, 06:59 PM

Hi:

You had me at "What" :)

Thanks for the confirmations guys. I am always very easy to convince when it comes to upgrading. I am on my way to get the 570.

Heck, I can beat that. :D I was running 20s as L/Rs, with a 570 center. I decided to trade in the 20s for 60s. Turned in the bookshelves, but then there was a "shipping problem" with the 60s. It's been two weeks now, with neither.

But my wife keeps bringing home movies from the rental store anyway. You don't really appreciate the quality of the 570 center, until you have to use it as the only front speaker in a surround system. Very glad I spent the extra bucks for the 570.

caribbeansun

06-28-06, 08:04 PM

Sorry but I don't think so - you can get the GST back but the PST is another story. To the best of my knowledge there is no method for you to get the 8% Ontario Provincial Tax back. Oh, and NAFTA deals with import duties and tariffs rather than domestic taxation.

Welcome to our over taxed country :eek:

Well due to NAFTA I will get my tax back, before I cross the border :D

I think I need to go over and get a price from the Canadian Dealer and see what he can do for me.....

am4966

06-28-06, 09:20 PM

Sorry but I don't think so - you can get the GST back but the PST is another story. To the best of my knowledge there is no method for you to get the 8% Ontario Provincial Tax back. Oh, and NAFTA deals with import duties and tariffs rather than domestic taxation.

Welcome to our over taxed country :eek:

I dont think you are correct...SInce I went over to look at furniture about a year ago and I believe the GST does not apply to me since I am not Canadian and I get the PST back.....Well I plan on going over there tomorrow to get a price so we will get a confirmation on this that way it will educate all of us! ;)

AM

Arcanum

06-28-06, 11:17 PM

hifisponge

06-29-06, 12:28 AM

Ok, so I bought the 570 and came home. I hooked it up and now I have to set it at +9db and my other speakers at -4db in order to get it calibrated with my spl. It still sound hollow and kind of like a flaming bag of...

I assume there is something wrong with the speaker. All I did was unplug my old one and plug in the new one.

Opinions?

That speaker sounds brokedy broke. If anything the 570 should be slightly more efficient than the 20s (meaning you should maybe have to set its level a dB or two lower than your L/Rs). It should also be hard to tell the difference between a phantom center and the center its self. Definitly shouldn't sound hollow, or like a bag of poo. :eek:

The only trouble shooting I can offer is to make sure that the straps that connect the bi-wire terminals are in fact connected and that you have the red to red and black to black.

oztech

06-29-06, 01:11 AM

i agree that speaker should sound seamless across
the front i know mine does.

BigSwede

06-29-06, 03:32 AM

am4966 - What did you find out in the Great White North? Curious because I'm also shopping for Paradigms and will be travelling to Toronto on biz in mid-July. If the savings are significant, I may try to buy up there.

This is my first post - have been trolling AVS for several weeks now. In the process of finishing our basement and setting up a HT. I've had a pair of Studio 20s for 7 years (?) or so and have loved them. They are hooked up to my 20 yr old Nakamichi TA-2A receiver - probably grossly underpowered but I'll try to right any wrongs with the new HT!

Was leaning toward another pr of Studio 20v3, CC470, and some in-ceilings for the rears, SA-15Rs or AMS150s. Questions:

1. Do any of you have experience w/ Paradigm's (or other brand's) in-ceilings for rears? My room would allow for speakers on stands for the rears, but my wife, 5yr old and 2yr old won't!
2. Sub - Local A/V guy rec'd the PDR12 (and another the ultracube10). However, after reading up at Audioholics and some of the other AVS threads, was thinking about SVS or HSU. Any opinions?
3. Alternate fronts -
a) What about the Monitor 7/9/11s? Could I get away with the 11s and no sub? (I realize the sub question may be an ignorant one.) I've listened to the 11s and liked the way the filled the room / dispersed the sound.
b) This may be heresy on the Paradigm owner's thread, but should I give any consideration to Axiom? Have any of you heard them? I'm just going on what I've read (which isn't great for something I need to judge w/ my ears) but seem to offer a good value.(?)
4. Was considering a Denon AVR-2807 to power the speakers. If I stuck w/ my original Studio 20/CC470/etc. idea, would this be adequate for the Paradigms?

I'd appreciate your feedback. If you add in my ongoing HDTV research, I'm trying to make more A/V decisions for this basement (and w/ more $$$ at stake), than all my other lifetime A/V purchases! Thanks!

jkhome

06-29-06, 08:49 AM

I assume there is something wrong with the speaker. All I did was unplug my old one and plug in the new one.

Opinions?

When I had my 20s, moving them 6" closer to the TV made all the difference between boomy bass and a smooth response.

I lucked out with the 570, sat it right on top of the Pioneer RPTV. Instead of boomy bass, it actually sounds a little lean.

Maybe you should try a different position with it, and make sure it is angled towards the listening position.

elmac

06-29-06, 10:16 AM

geem

06-29-06, 11:25 AM

This is my first system ever, and its just a starting point for me, which I hope will grow in a few years down the line. I will be using my system mostly (90%) for Movies/sports. thanks in advance

here are 3 systems, which one would you pick? or with the same budget, what would you get (including items not listed) ?

System 1:
HDTV: Pioneer PDP-5070HD
Receiver: Marantz SR-5600
DVD player: Marantz DVD 4600
Front R&L: Paradigm Monitor 3 on stands
Center: Paradigm CC-370
Surround: Paradigm Mini Monitor on stands
Subwoofer: Paradigm PS-1000
$7525

System 2:
HDTV: Pioneer PDP-5070HD
Receiver: Denon AVR-2807
DVD Recorder: Panasonic DMR-EH55S
Front R&L: Paradigm Mini Monitor on stands
Center: Paradigm CC-270
Surround: Paradigm Titans on stands
Subwoofer: Paradigm PDR-10
$7525

System 3:
HDTV: Pioneer PDP-5070HD
Receiver: Yamaha HTR-5990
DVD Recorder: Panasonic DMR-EH55S
Front R&L: Paradigm Titans on stands
Center: Paradigm CC-370
Surround: Paradigm Atoms on stands
Subwoofer: Paradigm PDR-10
$7505