I just upgraded and hooked up the AVR-4806, and this reciever Is the best amp-pre-amp I've ever owend. Sound quality, features, HDMI upconversion...Awesome!! I just thought I'd make this "the" place where 4806 owners can go for all... :)

I just upgraded and hooked up the AVR-4806, and this reciever Is the best amp-pre-amp I've ever owend. Sound quality, features, HDMI upconversion...Awesome!! I just thought I'd make this "the" place where 4806 owners can go for all... :)

I don't own one, but I'm interested in seeing what the opinions are :)

This is what I wrote about it over at Audioholics:



I recently traded in my Denon 3805 to the new 4806. Hi-fi Buys has an awesome trade up system.

Anyway, the 4806 is an extremely large receiver, well not as big as the 5805, but a lot bigger and heavier than my 3805. But this is to fit all the extras into it. I never realized how large the transformer was on the 4806 until I got it home; I had only seen them in pictures on the web. The 3805’s transformer pales in comparison to the 4806. I’m guessing that it’s also used in the 5805. The 4806 also run very warm after being in use for a little while. You can feel a lot of heat rising out of the amp sections on either side of the receiver. Lets just say, if you have a small room, it will heat it up rather quickly.

When I got it home, making all the connections was easy. I’d be surprised if anyone could use all of them on the back. Next I went through the various on screen displays to setup my system. Set all the speakers to small, left the sub crossover at “THX fixed” which I am assuming is 80Hz, assigned the various digital inputs to the appropriate video input, etc. Let me tell you there are A LOT of options in this thing! I really like the option where you can rename the inputs. For Example, I renamed VCR-1 to XBOX, so it displays XBOX on the front panel when selected.

Instead of setting the receiver up manually with a SPL meter like I did with my 3805, I decided to try the Audyssey auto setup. I placed the mic on my camera tri-pod in the main listening position for the first test. Luckily, the Denon mic is included with the 4806. When you first run the Audyssey it sends out a series of test tones to determine what speakers you have hooked up. Next it will ask you to place the mic in the main listening position and repeats the test. You do this a total of 7 more times in 7 different locations based around the main listening point. After the 8 points are finished calculates the results and determines the channel levels, speaker size, EQ, crossover, and distance.

What I found when I ran this test is that it configured my left, right, and center speakers as “large” and my surrounds as small. I eventually went back and set them back to “small” The distances were pretty dead on, and so were the channel levels. I only needed to adjust a few channels within 0.5dB. I did find it odd that Audyssey had adjusted almost all of my channels to negative 3-5dB. Why would it adjust them all the channels to negative? Why not leave some at 0 and adjust them accordingly? The crossover was set to something weird like Center: 40Hz, Left and Right: 60Hz, and the LFE was set at 80Hz. What I did like though were the EQ’s that Audyssey generated. The one that I think sounded the best was “Flat”. When I played movies through the 4806 with “flat” enabled, it made the speakers seem seamless. Audyssey isn’t perfect but it does do a good job getting you going and makes it easier for you to tweak the system. One of these days I’m going to get a good setup DVD so that I can configure the EQ myself.

The 4806 can really push my Polk speakers now. I have the Rti10’s floor standing, Csi5 center channel, and Fxi3 surround speakers. Before with the 3805, it seemed as if the Rti10’s were missing some mid range, but with the 4806, the sound is much more full. I’m not sure if this is because of the amp itself or the settings that Audyssey gave me for the EQ. All I know is that they do sound better.

I tried some different movies to test out my new setup and some Halo 2. I watched a lot of the Superbit DVD movie “Fifth Element” because I think it makes full use of the receiver’s capabilities. The sound effects and the music sound really great, I think there were a few things in the movie that I had never really heard before or other sounds where just more clear and detailed. My favorite part of the movie is the Opera house scene; the music was very detailed and not overly bright. It just sounded perfect like you were there. Shortly after you get into some good action scenes with gunfights and explosions, all which the 4806 handled without a problem. However, the test that really impressed me the most was Halo 2. This game makes VERY good use of Dolby Digital 5.1 with sound all around you throughout the entire game. The 5.1 can be very helpful when fighting as you can hear enemies sneaking up behind you or gunfire. At one point in the game I heard a voice behind me, and I almost turned around to see who was there because it sounded so real.

Overall, I really like the 4806. It’s a beast, yet very flexible. It will take anything you through at it and output it with finesse. I might have to upgrade to the Polk Lsi series one day to match the amp. I think if someone is really into home theater this is a good receiver to consider.

If anyone has any tips, tricks, or suggestions about how to setup this amp or anything else, please let me know. Maybe we will have to start a AVR-4806 owners thread soon!

Oh, yeah, its still the same remote we all love.



NOTE: I ran the Audyssey setup again but this time I held the mic in my hand and pointed it to each speaker during the 8 tests. This produced a much better setup for my room, speakers set to small, distance, etc. The Audyssey EQ sounded REALLY nice too this time. I would recommend trying this method if you are not satisfied with the Aydssey results the first time.

Nice post, I'm using the Audyssey EQ setting, but now I'm going to try the "flat" setting to find out If Klipsch will sound better. And I would'nt recommend using the THX setting, my speakers sounded muffeled.

The eight tests are for up to eight seating positions. I only care about my seating position so I skipped the other 4 available seats in the room. It sounded better that way.

I only wish I could see what MultEQ was actually doing. I live in Missouri "Show-Me"

Really? Only 1 position? Did you try more than one position, because the denon manual recommends at least 6 positions to get an "accurate" reading.

I think Chris from Audyssey had some recommendations on how to get the best setup in the 5805 thread. I'll try to find out what he suggested. I think I remember something about taking a near field reading by holding the mic 1 foot from each speaker. I have my system setup with a Triad 7 channel in-ceiling system. The MultEQ works wonders for sound quality. It really clears up the mid-range and voices on music. I'm not a big fan of the THX settings so I mostly use PLIIx Cinema or music, depending on source. The video conversion feature is awsome as well. I will try to post some pics later. I have a silver unit, anyone else?

What? Near field? Thats crazy. I put the mic in all five seats, just the three couch seats and just in my seat. Did I mention that I would like to know what MultEQ is doing and that 9 band on screen manual eq thingy sucks

I bought the black unit myself. Where did you get your silver 4806 from? Was it a special order?

The silver unit was not special order. My dealer said the current production run was silver and that's what came in. I was a bit worried about what the silver would look like but after unboxing the unit I have to say it is quite fetching. It is almost a perfect color match to my HD Tivo.

Hey Tom, don't know where I heard the near field measurement thing but after some research Chris from Audyssey doesn't mention it and I am thinking it is probably a bad idea. I have attached some quotes from Chris from the 5805 thread.

"On the microphone: Although we have implemented a correction curve for the mic type supplied by Denon, there is still variation from mic to mic. One technique that I found useful is to hold the mic in my hand and point it to each speaker being measured. Be careful not to cover any part of the front of the mic as that would decrease the captured high frequencies and tell the filters to create a boost there. Also, the absolute worst thing to do is to put the mic on the couch during measurement as that causes reflections from the back of the couch to be included in the measurements.

Yes, the mic capsule is omni, but it is enclosed in a hockey puck. So what I meant was to point the puck at each speaker with your hand carefully behind the mic. The best way is to mount it on a tripod so as to avoid handling noise by your hand.

As for placement, definitely not 8 positions close together. That will give the least benefit. The spreading depends on your seating arrangement. Typically, you would perform three on the main couch spread out every 2-3 feet, then maybe 1-2 on any side seats. We also recommend doing at least one measurement at a height above the ears in the vicinity of the main position. For electrostatic speakers we recommend splitting the measurements at two different heights to account for the vertical directivity characteristics of those speakers.

If the stand has a reasonably long arm this is not a problem. Also, if you end up having to hold the mic, just make sure your body is to the side of it and your arm is extended. The only time reflections would interfere is if you sit and hold the mic in front of you.

--Curve selection:

Audyssey recommends using the "Audyssey" curve for nearly all home theater listening situations. In the rare case of the listener seated very close to the speakers (e.g. a mixer or a person in front of computer speakers), one should try the flat curve as there would theoretically be no need for a high frequency roll-off.

--Microphone placement:

There is no "you" and "they". We wrote the sections of the manual that pertain to MultEQ. The standard recommendation is to point the mic at the ceiling as that is the way it was calibrated. Recently, I have been suggesting that people try pointing it to the speakers. This was intended to address the issue that some people were having with brightness. Although the correction curve created for the microphones (pointing up) should cover the majority of these mics, it is possible that a few are made outside the tolerances.

Please try it the right way first: point up

--"On the couch"

By "on the couch" I meant actually placing the microphone on the seat. Don't do that unless you plan to calibrate for your lower extremities. The mic should be placed on a stand or in your hand in the location of your ears while seated on the couch or chair.

--Mic spacing

At Denon's request we created a couple of diagrams that show the recommended spacings for the mic. What is important is that the first location is exactly at the listening position as that is where the delays are calculated from. After that, the exact placement is not as critical. What is critical is to cover a wide area. The definition of that will depend on the furniture arrangement. In a typical L-shaped couch arrangement take 3-4 on the main couch (approx. centered on each couch seat), 2-3 on the love seat, and 1-2 in front of them.

Taking a closely-spaced cluster of measurements 1 foot around the main listening position will not give results that are as good as the widely spaced measurements even for the main listening position."

Does It matter what mic Is used? Has anyone used the yamaha mic for calibrating with denon?

StOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You guys are gonna make me wanna upgrade, and I don't have the money!!! :p

I got a 4806 last night, but I am still many hours away from more comments. So far I have basically got it wired, have the DL3 active with my 3910, and an HD Tivo as my second source. Haven't hooked up video switching yet, nor have I done any calibration.

So far it's terrific, and the DL3 sure takes a lot of wires off the back of the rack.

Allen

Does It matter what mic Is used? Has anyone used the yamaha mic for calibrating with denon?


Yes it matters what mic you use.
Do NOT use a different mic other than that provided because the program is calibrated to the denon mic.
You will (should) get bad results if you use a different mic.

Ok, I'll stick with the denon Mic thanks.

WOW, I calibrated only three positions instead of eight, and set the eg to "Flat". Night and day difference. My speakers sound so much smoother. This thread has already benefited me, and I hope It continues to benefit others :) !

Guys

Will the 4806 handle more than one sub?

thanks

Will the 4806 handle more than one sub?

Unfortunetly no. That is why I hope Denon will release a 5805 as a Pre/Pro which can do 3 Subs.

Too bad...

Thanks you, Spizz

Actually, I have 3 sub's and a buttkicker amp hooked up with the sub out, and the all sound wonderful. There's enough signal to split It up.

Did I mention that I would like to know what MultEQ is doing and that 9 band on screen manual eq thingy sucks


Velodyne

I'm sure that's true...I have two subs with my 3803...

However the 5805 will assign multiple subs different portions of the bass signal, depending on how you want it split up...

Stereo subs plus LFE, etc.

Yea I know, I just can't see how It's absolutely nessesary to have multiple sub outs since bass Is non-directional anyway.

" Will the 4806 handle more than one sub?

Unfortunetly no. "

I don't see that as a disadvantage. Per the Harman white paper "Subwoofers: Optimum Number and Locations" here

http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=1003

proper location of multiple subs fed a mono signal can greatly improve response by mode cancellation and/or nonexcitation.

So my sound settings are pretty set now, but now I have a few questions on the video portion. I'm using the HDMI output to my Hitachi 65XWX20 with the HDMI to DVI adapter. Should I use the YCrCb, or the RGB output of the 4806. Thanks

" Will the 4806 handle more than one sub?

Unfortunetly no. "

I don't see that as a disadvantage. Per the Harman white paper "Subwoofers: Optimum Number and Locations" here

http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=1003

proper location of multiple subs fed a mono signal can greatly improve response by mode cancellation and/or nonexcitation.

I'll check out that link Noah...thanks.

I'm interested in non-mono signals, eg LFE vs low frequency from main channels.

One observation I have is that when you combine HDMI video switching with a D-Link connection and add in all the possible "switch" settings for the various combinations of inputs, outputs, formats and processing options, this is an order of magnitude more complicated in the setup.

Just connecting my 4806 with a Sony HD CRT, a Denon 3910, and an HDTivo I couldn't get the sound to work right or the right formats to appear on the screen. Turns out 100% of the issues were attributable to incorrect settings. Really simple once you get a handle on it, but lots of layers and choices.

So far everything works as advertised. This receiver is phenomenally capable. Even a purist might want one as a pre-pro, but the vast majority of applications would be well served with just the receiver.

Allen

I use mine as just a pre-pro, and It does wonders for my system.

I use mine as just a pre-pro, and It does wonders for my system.

What amp(s) are you using?

What amp(s) are you using?


Signature Series Monster Power Reference Three Channel Amplifier-(Front's and Center)
Signature Series Monster Power Reference Two Channel Amplifier-(Side Surround's)
Signature Series Monster Power Reference Two Channel Amplifier-(Center Rear's)

Thanks, Hyabusha

Have you listened to the 4806 internal amps, and if so, how do they compare?

No I haven't Moonhawk, but I can tell you this, the Denon AVR-4806 has been my favorite Pre-Pro I've ever owned. Over the Yamaha RX-Z9 and the Sunfire TGIV.

Nice amps Hyabusha ;) I have them in my rack as well. I also have a 57swx20b. You should send that display device 1080i YCrCb. The native resolution on the xws series is 540p and 1080i. If you sent it anything other than 1080i, the Hitachi will scale the signal again (not a good thing)

What dvd player are you using?

And to answer moonhawk's question as to how the internal amps compare, IMO they don't. Your talking about ($8000 retail) 280lbs of Monster amps vs a "current limited" A/V receiver, it's not even close.

Haybusha, I guess I answered my own question when I saw you're on the 3910 thread. Your front-end and display device are exactly the same as mine, good stuff. ;)

I have my 3910 hooked directly to the Hitachi via DVI and I use the component video switching in the 4806 for X-Box and HD Cable. I'm not a hard core videophile but I remember reading something in the review at Secrets on the 3910 about HDMI vs DVI connection between the 3910 and the xsw series Hitachi (Kris has one too). I tried both and I got a better picture from a DVI connection with the xws series displays.

BTW, I'm using IEEE 1394 between the 3910 and 4806. I'm not a fan of proprietary solutions.

Hey Tom, so your not going to upconvert all thru HDMI out of your 4806? That was one of the big points for me getting the 4806. But thats cool, I just upgraded my 3910 to the DL3. I thought technically the Denon-Link was better than IEEE-1394. C-ya

The issue of proprietary vs. standard is irrelevant if you already own the appropriate gear. I find the D-Link connection to work flawlessly with all audio formats, though I presume the 1394 connection does the same.

WRT the HDMI switcher on the 4806, I agree with Hyabushaha that the convenience of having every video source supplied to the 4806 sent over the hdmi connection to the display through one connection really outweighs the shortcomings, which for me is apparently none, so that makes my choice easier.

That might change if there were a noticeable degredation in video, but I have not seen that, and my display has only a DVI connection on it. I can see no difference in the picture between hdmi from the 3910 to the dvi on the display compared to dvi on the 3910 to the dvi on the display. That is probably why I see no difference going through the 4806.

Allen

I don't need any upconversion, both my DVD player and my HD PVR are being received by the display device in 1080i. I have a Harmony 880 remote so switching between activities is only one button away.

I'm in the business and sell lots of this gear. I have had issues with PQ when using HDMI sources with DVI display devices. I'm my personal set-up, the Denon 3910 looks better hooked up via DVI output to display device DVI input. I'm not talking about "I think it looks better", I'm talking about ISF calibrated results. If you have the cables, give it a shot.

I have the cables, and I have tried it both ways. On my display (Sony XBR34960CRT) there is no discernable difference. Of course you get different results, so your choice is understandable.

BTW, the 4806 does not upconvert, other than from analog to digital. The resolution remains unchanged.

Allen

.... I'm in the business and sell lots of this gear. I have had issues with PQ when using HDMI sources with DVI display devices. .....

What types of problems have you seen? I am considering using HDMI out from my receiver to DVI on my TV for all connections.

Thanks!

I'm sure it will look fantastic. There is no problem with using an HDMI source with a DVI display device. With the Denon DVD-3910 which has DVI and HDMI outputs, I have seen better "measured" results using a DVI-DVI connection.

does the 4806 display the gui via hdmi?

yup! ;)

Spizz and others...

The 4806 can be "tricked" into supporting two subs. I just did it this weekend, and it worked like a champ. After auto-cal, the delay distance equals the distant sub. MultEQ thinks there is only one sub. The Audyssey low frequency curve in our reasonably good room with reasonably good sub and seating placement after auto cal looked text book classic on a good RTA with at least 1/12th octave res. Sounds fabulous!

If any of you can get hold of a good RTA, you would be wise to use it as you go through auto cal on the 4806, especially with regard to what EQ program you wish to use. You may choose whatever you subjectively wish, but a good RTA will tell you a lot. There will never be an "auto" calibration program that will not require and benefit from verification and "management" to get it to nominal performance. MultEQxt is capable of superb results, or some pretty bad ones. A decent room renders results in the Audyssey curve that are almost identical to the JBL Synthesis Curve (especially the low end), and at a fraction of the price. But not without reasonable verification and some possible additional passes at the auto-cal. The response of the LCRs takes more attention, but can also render incredibly good results. I've never seen a program that could EQ surrounds well, but MultEQ does so in spectacular fashion.

Bravo, Audyssey.

Spizz and others...

The 4806 can be "tricked" into supporting two subs.

Did you just have them hooked up with a splitter, or what?

Cam Man,

Glad to hear that you're getting good results.

Something that would be *very * interesting would be to test Audyssey's claims of improving response over a large area.

Have you measured the response at different locations within the seating area?

Thanks

I have not measured solely at specific points. I have only averaged across the listening area. I did take a look at each briefly and saw no significant change. I will look closer and let you know.

Two subs are fairly easy, but requires more gear. Provided that neither of your subs is in a terrible standing wave location, all you need to do is delay the nearest sub by the difference to show center, then set the two subs at relative levels of 70dB. This will require two channels of a device that has the ability to delay and adjust gain. Okay, it's not a budget fix. But it works great. Y out of 4806 sub out. The two sub "channels" then go into seperate channels of a digital delay or PEQ with delay. The difference in distance is added to the closer sub, then levels matched using the 4806 manual tone, the gain in the outboard device, and an SPL meter. Then the outs of the delay device go to their respective subs/amps. The propogation factor of the delay device is not factored since it affects both sub channels equally. On auto-cal, MultEQ hears the subs arrival time and level as the same, and is not confused; it thinks it hears only one sub.

Here is a great convenience feature of the 4806 (and 5805) to try. The surround User Memories (the 4806 has three) can be configured to provide an easy way to configure for movies with theatrical sound mixes (a THX mode), a second for non-theatrical mixes (a DD/dts mode with back surround as you like), and the third for multi-channel music...or however you like. Saves a ton of time and screw ups.

I was just getting to a closer look at the user memory section of the setup. That scheme sounds like a plan, not only for the various surround modes but for the switch from surround a to surround b for music.

Allen

I guess I should add that it helps to be using good speakers. I'm sure you all are at this price point of AVR, but you never know. One thing that I'm sure we are all still getting used to is what to do with bass management with MultEQ.

By the way, before you get too enamoured with your 4806es, you should know there is a firmware upgrade for MultEQ coming very soon. I hear it provides numerous significant upgrades and improvements. I don't know how it will be distributed and installed, but I should know in a week or so.

Nice!! :)

"The surround User Memories (the 4806 has three)"

I would be really stoked if this is true. I need to EQ to two different listening areas because I swing the couch out for movies.

But at least I'm confused on this point; in the big 5806 thrread Chris said there are three EQ curves, but only one is the Audyssey target curve; the other two are Flat and Front and not recommended.

"there is a firmware upgrade for MultEQ coming very soon. I hear it provides numerous significant upgrades and improvements."

Interesting; I thought the "upgrade" was to get MultEQ just to work on all 5805's.

But I sure hope you're right; any hints as top what kinds of improvements?

Oh, one more thing - any definitive word on the 4806 being upgradable to support DD+ and DTSHD?

Thanks a lot.

Unfortunately, there are not memories for different positions. Just different target curves. I agree with Chris on the target curve...at least for now. The Audyssey is the only one I have taken a good look at and measured.

In fact, Chris gave me a heads up on the firmware before the 4806 arrived. He did tell me a little about the improvements, but I suspect he should do the honors. The one he told me of relates to mic calibration curve to eliminate/improve the sometimes harsh result after auto-cal.

I have no good contact deep within Denon that could answer your upgrade question. I think I will be satisfied if it is backwards compatible to current sound formats.

" Unfortunately, there are not memories for different positions."

Darn.

"Just different target curves."

Only one of which is the Audyssey, like I mentioned above?

Does MultEQ stay engaged for the 2-ch stereo mode?

Thanks again

The 5805 and 4806 have 3 User Modes that store the currently set Input Source, Input Mode & Surround Mode. That's all they store though.

MultEQ can be set for all modes or assigned manually. You also have the option in the menus to apply it to the Direct/Pure Direct modes.

how fast are the improvements on the audio side from a denon avr-4800 to the avr-4806?

I don't need all the HDMI,DVI switching, etc. I have a dedicated lumagen video processor. I am just looking to what improvements have been made on teh audio audio side.

my current setup

avr-4800 +
oddysee Khartago 2 channel Amp for 7 channels total.

the oddysee handles the front two speakers and the denon handles the center and 4 rear speakers.

I had exactly that setup except I had the Denon 2 channel amp that paired with the 4800 powering my fronts. The biggest improvements I see if you disregard the video switching are the more complex THX, Dolby and DTS modes, including the UltraII, PLIIx and NEO6, and the biggest single improvement the audyssey Equalization. You also get better dacs, and it can digitally receive SACD and DVDAudio either through D-Link if you have the right Denon DVD player or through I-link if not.

Pure sonic improvements are probably real, but not as noticeable as the above. The Audyssey stuff is worth the price of admission by itself IMHO.

Allen

"The surround User Memories (the 4806 has three)"

I would be really stoked if this is true. I need to EQ to two different listening areas because I swing the couch out for movies.

But at least I'm confused on this point; in the big 5806 thrread Chris said there are three EQ curves, but only one is the Audyssey target curve; the other two are Flat and Front and not recommended.

"there is a firmware upgrade for MultEQ coming very soon. I hear it provides numerous significant upgrades and improvements."

Interesting; I thought the "upgrade" was to get MultEQ just to work on all 5805's.

But I sure hope you're right; any hints as top what kinds of improvements?

Oh, one more thing - any definitive word on the 4806 being upgradable to support DD+ and DTSHD?

Thanks a lot.

I guess one thing he has already leaked is that it will 'fix' the omnidirectionality of the microphone (I know it is software not hardware...) so you don't have to point it at the speakers to try and get accurate measurements. Should also help with one issue I have noticed on mine: it tends to 'overcorrect' the high end a bit too hot (boosting the two high bands on my front speakers +6 = introducing some harshness to the sound )

The harshness problem is specifically a fix in the new firmware.

Here is surprise....and maybe a disappointment. Despite what MultEQ does regarding speaker size and crossover, when a THX mode is selected, the crossover reverts to 80Hz. Did anybody see that in the owner's manual? I missed that one completely...if it is there. That would be a good thing for Denon to put in their manual to tell us. I have to think about this. Presuming that for any theatrical mix, we would want the THX post-processing to give us the nominal translation to the home theater, we would choose a THX mode. More and more titles are being mixed for the home theater, and theoretically would not require THX post-processing for them. So, that could leave us with two different playing fields with regards to our bass management. Not sure how I feel about this.

I guess that despite the quirk this brings to bass management, the benefits of what MultEQ does otherwise far outweighs this...at least for me.

BTW, my source is Audyssey.

Here is surprise....

No that is not a surprise, because 80hZ is the THX spec for sub crossover setting. So if you want to use the THX mode/post-processing, then you also get whatever non adjustable spec settings that are also part of it.

Is Audessey otherwise still engaged in THX mode?

I would say yes based on the osd.

Allen

Here is surprise....and maybe a disappointment. Despite what MultEQ does regarding speaker size and crossover, when a THX mode is selected, the crossover reverts to 80Hz. Did anybody see that in the owner's manual? I missed that one completely...if it is there. That would be a good thing for Denon to put in their manual to tell us. I have to think about this. Presuming that for any theatrical mix, we would want the THX post-processing to give us the nominal translation to the home theater, we would choose a THX mode. More and more titles are being mixed for the home theater, and theoretically would not require THX post-processing for them. So, that could leave us with two different playing fields with regards to our bass management. Not sure how I feel about this.

I guess that despite the quirk this brings to bass management, the benefits of what MultEQ does otherwise far outweighs this...at least for me.

BTW, my source is Audyssey.
Any time, any unit, when THX is activated all crossovers are set to 80hz, that's just part of THX and THX speaker systems.

dc

I'm looking into this further because I discussed this with a friend who says he has measured this to the contrary...and he is really good with this sort of thing. He says has specifically measured electrically for the change. I will check more of the details with him, and get back. Audyssey may have meant a THX mode in the speaker setup rather than a THX post processing mode. I will get clarification from them.

Are the digital video ins and out of the 4806 HDCP compliant?

Yes.

Allen

You don't need to use a THX mode for too-bright movies. The 4806 has a Cinema EQ that will tone them down without mucking up your crossover settings. See page 54 in the manual.

That has always been a very aggressive curve...considerably more so than the THX re-eq curve.

Any time, any unit, when THX is activated all crossovers are set to 80hz, that's just part of THX and THX speaker systems.

dc I was playing around last night and set all speakers to large and sub to none. After engaging THX processing all speakers remained large. I turned the sub to "on" and still no bass management on THX processing mode. This is easy to verify on 5.0 titles. So much for that theory...

The MultEQ "upgrade" is only for the 5805s.There is no plan for a 4806 upgrade any time soon. That is the info from Denon as of this morning.Yep, there is a lot of confusion on this one

" The MultEQ "upgrade" is only for the 5805s."
Does that mean the 5805's MultEQ is better, or does it just bring it to the level of the more recently released 4806?

Thanks

I have a quick question. When watching DVDs (DVD 3910 hooked to AVR 4806 using
Denon link and DVI to HDMI cable) the projected image has a background of faint tiny dancing sparkles.
This is not seen with any other video feed (computer, TV, etc.). The DVD is set
for 720p output. Once in a while I play with the DVD/AVR settings and the sparkles
disappear. However I do not know what I have done to make them go away and I cannot
reliably eliminate them (most of the time I can't eliminate them).

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. If anyone can help I have an extra Denon DMS-305 mic I would gladly send your way.

Regards,
-jerry

Jerry,

You only describe one cable for video. As you are asking the question here I assume you are feeding the 3910 video to the 4806 and from there to the projector. What cable links the 4806 to the projector, and what kind of projector is it? Does the same thing happen when you cable the video from the 3910 direct to the projector?

Allen

Allen,

Thank you for your reply. The projector is an H79 connected via Gefen digital optic fiber to the 4806.

The fact that I do not always have the sparkles, or they occasionally have gone
away with settings manipulation leads me to believe that cables may not be the issue. Note, when I use a different source feed into the 4806, such as TV or computer, there are no dancing sparkles. The sparkles are related to the 3910 DVD source. I do not know if some setting on either the 3910 or 4806 is wrong. I will try HDMI - HDMI cable from 3910 to the 4806 (instead of DVI - HDMI cable). Your diagnostic idea of plugging directly from 3910 to the projector is a thought and I will post the result.

Thanks,
-jerry

Did anyone get a chance to compare the 4806 to the Marantz SR-9600 ?

Jake SM -
''Vous fabriquons un pays à partir d'un morceau de l'Allemagne et n'avez-vous toujours pas les boules à tenir près de nous dans un combat ? ''

Don't like to nitpick but you might want to change that to something along the lines of:
''Vous fabriquez un pays à partir d'un morceau de l'Allemagne mais n'avez toujours pas les couilles de vous tenir près de nous dans un combat''

I just received my 4806 (still in the box, waiting for the rack/cabinet), and am awaiting a 3910 as well. Can someone tell me the best way to hook these two together. I assume the Denon Link is the best, along with an HDMI cable. With the Link, will I still need the 6 analog cables for SACD/DVD-A?

Thanks!

:-jon

I don't think you will need them, but if you have some handy, hook them up and compare the sound...

Then let us know which you prefer....:)

I just received my 4806 (still in the box, waiting for the rack/cabinet), and am awaiting a 3910 as well. Can someone tell me the best way to hook these two together. I assume the Denon Link is the best, along with an HDMI cable. With the Link, will I still need the 6 analog cables for SACD/DVD-A?

Thanks!

:-jon
I would use denon link since the measurements I saw showed it had the lowest jitter. I-link however was not far behind so probably not an audible difference. Dont use the HDMI for audio, it is prone to jitter at least in the denon.

Adam

" The MultEQ "upgrade" is only for the 5805s."
Does that mean the 5805's MultEQ is better, or does it just bring it to the level of the more recently released 4806?

Thanks

The MultEQ is the same 'level' in the 4806 and 5805. They will use a more limited version in some other (cheaper) models.

The 5805's did get an earlier iteration that had some issues with bass management.

I don't own one, but I'm interested in seeing what the opinions are :)

Can we get a little more chatter from you 4806 owners? :)

Another weekend has come and gone so a lot of tweek'n and chang'n and fiddl'n should have taken place. Maybe you are all locked in your home theater rooms laughing at all of us non owners. :D

Another weekend has come and gone so a lot of tweek'n and chang'n and fiddl'n should have taken place. :D

Yeah, that about sums it up. Once you find out that it pretty much works as advertised it is harder to make the comparisons between all the available surround modes and combinations.
Allen

Okay, (after a couple of weeks) I would say that you can push MultEQ too far with regards to mic positions for the auto cal. This also depends on the type of speakers you have and their off axis fall off rates. I experimented with two of the eight positions at pretty wide extremes. The result, as one might expect, was for MultEQ to try to compensate for the reduction in HF response, resutling in a harsh high end. If the mic positions are kept in a central zone of the seating area (maybe four seats wide) distributed well (at each of the four seats and a couple forward and aft of seating a couple of feet), then I still contend this is a revolutionary product. The dialogue clarity, overal definition and synergy of the sound field is a leap ahead of where it was...which was as good as it gets done manually (Klipsch Ultra 2 speakers calibrated with a digital parmetric EQ to 1/12th octave resolution). After the proper MultEQ auto cal, the uniformity of spectral balance of L, C, R, and all surrounds is amazing and, frankly, probably better than could be done manually in less than a couple of hours, if ever.

I cannot put my finger on how it is doing it or how to make an objective verification. An RTA shows some of what is happening above 80Hz, but I hear much more improvement than I am able to see in frequency and amplitude. Maybe there are good things going on in the time domain that I cannot measure. Same for below 80Hz, but that was already acoustically very strong.

On repeated auto cals I see the same distance delays showing up +/- .1 feet. The Klipsch KL-650-THX, unlike most THX certified speakers, is 3dB down at 56 Hz rather than the typical 80Hz. MultEQ repeatedly chooses large and a crossover at 60Hz. Impressive.

One observation I have is that when you combine HDMI video switching with a D-Link connection and add in all the possible "switch" settings for the various combinations of inputs, outputs, formats and processing options, this is an order of magnitude more complicated in the setup.

Just connecting my 4806 with a Sony HD CRT, a Denon 3910, and an HDTivo I couldn't get the sound to work right or the right formats to appear on the screen. Turns out 100% of the issues were attributable to incorrect settings. Really simple once you get a handle on it, but lots of layers and choices.
Allen

Allen can you clarify this?

With the 4806 I can go to my 3910 via D-Link and the 3910 to my Sony via HDMI and the OSD will work? Or do I need a link from the 4806 to the Sony? In reading the manual it appears that if you make one HDMI connection then everything need to be conneceted via HDMI.

Allen can you clarify this?

With the 4806 I can go to my 3910 via D-Link and the 3910 to my Sony via HDMI and the OSD will work? Or do I need a link from the 4806 to the Sony? In reading the manual it appears that if you make one HDMI connection then everything need to be conneceted via HDMI.

I was primarily referring to the number of setting options between the components making it more likely to have a settings mismatch. Once I corrected my carelessness it was fine.

The D-link is for audio only, so has no affect on the video connections. You need to also connect the 3910 to the 4806 for video, presumably with the HDMI connection if you are using HDMI to go from the 4806 to the Sony.

The OSD from the 4806 works over the HDMI connection, except it switches the picture to something that looks like 480i temporarily while the OSD is active, returning to high res when you cancel the OSD. The OSD from the 3910 works just fine also, but without the resolution change.

EDIT: I reread your question. You can mix connections to the 4806, and have them all go out on the HDMI to your display. Currently I have 2 HDMI inputs (3910, HDTivo), 1 component (CD-DVD jukebox), and a couple of S-video connections (SD DirectTivo, DVD Burner). All are output through the HDMI to the display.


Allen

Cam Man,

"An RTA shows some of what is happening above 80Hz, but I hear much more improvement than I am able to see in frequency and amplitude. Maybe there are good things going on in the time domain that I cannot measure."

Well, Audyssey made some pretty high falutin' claims for the time domain corrections MultEQ is capable of; I guess they're being borne out.

EDIT: I reread your question. You can mix connections to the 4806, and have them all go out on the HDMI to your display. Currently I have 2 HDMI inputs (3910, HDTivo), 1 component (CD-DVD jukebox), and a couple of S-video connections (SD DirectTivo, DVD Burner). All are output through the HDMI to the display.Allen

I'm assuming I can get better "quality" video with the 3910 direct to the display via HDMI instead of having it go through the 4806 to the TV. Audio would be handled by DL3. An optical would go from the TV out to the 4806 for sound from the cablecard. That would leave how to get video from the 4806 to the TV for the OSD.

The MultEQ "upgrade" is only for the 5805s.There is no plan for a 4806 upgrade any time soon. That is the info from Denon as of this morning.Yep, there is a lot of confusion on this one

Don't be terribly surprised that Denon may not have a clue that the MultEQ upgrade is coming for the 4806. My source is Chris at Audyssey.

Any time, any unit, when THX is activated all crossovers are set to 80hz, that's just part of THX and THX speaker systems. dc

This is not true with the 4806. We near field measured a Klipsch KL-650-THX with EQ off in DD mode. The speaker is down 3dB at 56 Hz rather than the typical 80 Hz spec. When THX post processing was engaged, the speaker's response did not change to 3dB down at 80 Hz. I have not tested to see if it changes if "LFE THX" rather than "LFE+Main" is selected in the sub configuration menu.

Now that introduces another "problem" we have discovered. If you have a speaker that MultEQ identifies as Large, and you choose "LFE+Main" in the subwoofer configuration menu, you will find that the front and center show a "crossover" value. This in not really a crossover. Quoting my friend who did the measuring: "The EQ filter rolls off the response of the main speaker, but it’s not phase coherent with the signal output by the subwoofer. It may LOOK like a crossover, but it doesn’t PERFORM like a crossover. The roll-off of the main speaker (due to the EQ filter) and the roll-off of the subwoofer (due to an arbitrary low-pass filter) will not integrate properly. The sub and the main speakers will be duplicating the low frequencies. If you choose to go this way, you’re basically remixing the soundtrack in a crude way to match your system. " Presuming we want a faithful, accurate reproduction of the mix, this is not a configuration to go with. This was all confirmed by electrical measurement rather than acoustic.

If you want the speaker to have a 60Hz crossover that will properly integrate with the sub, there is a way to do it. I'll be back with that.

I'm assuming I can get better "quality" video with the 3910 direct to the display via HDMI instead of having it go through the 4806 to the TV. Audio would be handled by DL3. An optical would go from the TV out to the 4806 for sound from the cablecard. That would leave how to get video from the 4806 to the TV for the OSD.

Actually, no. The video through the 4806 to the display appears identical to the video directly to the display from the 3910. That's the benefit of a digital connection, it does not degrade through the intermediate connection. The OSD works fine on the HDMI to the display. If you were using a component connection to the 4806, and then HDMI to the display, and it was an analog display (CRT), then going direct to the display with the component cable "might" avoid degradation from the analog to digital to analog progression being removed from the chain. My only component in is SD, and I see no loss of "quality".

Allen

Actually, no. The video through the 4806 to the display appears identical to the video directly to the display from the 3910. That's the benefit of a digital connection, it does not degrade through the intermediate connection. The OSD works fine on the HDMI to the display. If you were using a component connection to the 4806, and then HDMI to the display, and it was an analog display (CRT), then going direct to the display with the component cable "might" avoid degradation from the analog to digital to analog progression being removed from the chain. My only component in is SD, and I see no loss of "quality".
Allen

Thanks.

Can we get a little more chatter from you 4806 owners? :)

Another weekend has come and gone so a lot of tweek'n and chang'n and fiddl'n should have taken place. Maybe you are all locked in your home theater rooms laughing at all of us non owners. :D

I bought my 4806 this weekend and am still setting up my TSU7000 remote to include all the Denon disrete codes. Hence, I have not been able to fully set the receiver up. I can say that the sound quality is far and above the Yammy HTR5280 that it replaces (even with an Adcom GFA-1A outboard 200 watt amp). Very clean and smooth sounding mids and highs with a very deep soundstage. I could not believe how much better this unit makes my Athena AS-F2s sound. The 4806 makes me wonder if I need to get the Martin Logan Clarity upgrade to replace the Athena's. I have yet to explore all that the 4806 has to offer, but my initial reaction is WOW - money well spent. The THX Ultra2 spec really means this thing can hang out with the big boys of the amp world. I you have 3 HDMI sources, 3 VCRs, and 17 other components you need to plug in, then buy the 4806. If you don't, buy it anyway as it is the perfect backbone for a solid HT system that can play in the 2 channel sandbox without shame.

I bought my 4806 this weekend and am still setting up my TSU7000 remote to include all the Denon disrete codes. Hence, I have not been able to fully set the receiver up. I can say that the sound quality is far and above the Yammy HTR5280 that it replaces (even with an Adcom GFA-1A outboard 200 watt amp). Very clean and smooth sounding mids and highs with a very deep soundstage. I could not believe how much better this unit makes my Athena AS-F2s sound. The 4806 makes me wonder if I need to get the Martin Logan Clarity upgrade to replace the Athena's. I have yet to explore all that the 4806 has to offer, but my initial reaction is WOW - money well spent. The THX Ultra2 spec really means this thing can hang out with the big boys of the amp world. I you have 3 HDMI sources, 3 VCRs, and 17 other components you need to plug in, then buy the 4806. If you don't, buy it anyway as it is the perfect backbone for a solid HT system that can play in the 2 channel sandbox without shame.

Congrats on your purchase!

I've been into HT for over 10 years, and this bad-boy just blows me away!! Wait til you get 'er tweaked. You'll find yourself listening to all your old DVD's just to see what you missed :D

Don't be terribly surprised that Denon may not have a clue that the MultEQ upgrade is coming for the 4806. My source is Chris at Audyssey.


Is there another board somewhere that Chris is hanging out on? he seems to have dropped off of here.

Don't know, but you're right. Haven't seen him here in quite a while. I know he is really busy with lots of feedback from the field from installers, which he says is mostly rave. But installers are on a learning curve, too, and Chris is good about responding to them. That said, we are learning that there are enough nuances of the manufacturer's product (AVR/controller) that must work in harmony with MultEQ, that even Chris has to go find an answer sometimes. And to some extent he is working with installers who are really investing the time to learn how to squeeze the best performance out of the marriage with a particular product.

I think the next wave of Audyssey developments will be to license manufacturers to make "MultEQ ready" products. I suspect this will be somewhat like the 4806 does for XM Radio. They will simultaneously seek out installers to be Audyssey dealers who can "install" MultEQ capabilities into the device via proprietary software and "keys." They will also be able to install firmware updates.

Don't know, but you're right. Haven't seen him here in quite a while. I know he is really busy with lots of feedback from the field from installers, which he says is mostly rave. But installers are on a learning curve, too, and Chris is good about responding to them. That said, we are learning that there are enough nuances of the manufacturer's product (AVR/controller) that must work in harmony with MultEQ, that even Chris has to go find an answer sometimes. And to some extent he is working with installers who are really investing the time to learn how to squeeze the best performance out of the marriage with a particular product.

I think the next wave of Audyssey developments will be to license manufacturers to make "MultEQ ready" products. I suspect this will be somewhat like the 4806 does for XM Radio. They will simultaneously seek out installers to be Audyssey dealers who can "install" MultEQ capabilities into the device via proprietary software and "keys." They will also be able to install firmware updates.

He just re-appeared in the 5805 thread when someone complained about the update lagging.

The squeaky wheel...

Then again the 5805 has been out longer and costs more so I do not begrudge them their update, when they get it. It will, hopefully, eventually lead to some improvements for us 4806ers over time.

Well got mine today and after hours of swaping cables around I finally got it installed. Ran the auto-setup placing the microphone on a tripod and to my surprise, it did not work well. First it told me a bunch of speakers were out-of-phase (I rechecked and all the connections were correct, the manual states this can happen and you can press skip). So I did skip, chose two listening positions only and everything came back wrong! Front speakers set to Small (and they should be large), distance to most speakers set to 0 (zero) feet!!! In sum a mess. All my speakers are Martin Logan (except for the two rear surrounds - it is a 7.1 configuration).
So, is this a bug ? Should I contact Denon ? I know I could increase the listening positions but according to what I read in this thread this would not affect the time distance which to me is the most grievous mistake.
Any thoughts ???

Well, hang in there because this is not typical.

Let me ask some questions. Don't take offense; just covering bases.

Was it quiet in the room?

How reverberant is the room?

Was your first position (the "primary listening position") reasonably symetrical to the speaker array?

Did you use this position through just the first long "speaker detect" (sometimes 45 seconds between side surround back tones and back surround tones)? If so, you're okay so far. If not, even though it may not have a seat in it, go to the show center symetrical location (same row) as your primary seating and run that first pass. After that pass when it calls for position two, put it in your actual primary seats in that row (probably no more than 3 or 4 abreast). Your subsequent positions should be two feet behind your primary seating, located symetrically along the length of the primary row. In other words at thirds positions. And also the same two feet in front of the primary row.

Try again and let us know how it goes.

I have Klipsch RF-7's for fronts and the RC-7 for the center. The auto eq set them to large, should I leave It, or do the common thing and set them to small?

P.S. I have 3 sub's In my system.

We're all kind of struggling/experimenting with that. If you go to speaker configuration menu and change the setting to small, then go to crossover settings, advanced, (last menu item), you may notice that the crossover is set to something less than 80 (maybe 60Hz as are my Klipsch KL-650s). Then go to subwoofer set up and check to see it is set to LFE/THX. Then you will have a meaningful set up where the mains will not be duplicating the subs in a phase non-coherent manner (which is the case if you set the sub to LFE+Main and the speaker left at large). The Audyssey green light will change to red because you have changed something that it chose, but its calculations and EQ will still be in effect, and you will be more accurately reproducing the original recording/mix (presuming that is your goal.

Oops, I just noticed your sub info. How are you handling the multiple subs?

Well got mine today and after hours of swaping cables around I finally got it installed. Ran the auto-setup placing the microphone on a tripod and to my surprise, it did not work well. First it told me a bunch of speakers were out-of-phase (I rechecked and all the connections were correct, the manual states this can happen and you can press skip). So I did skip, chose two listening positions only and everything came back wrong! Front speakers set to Small (and they should be large), distance to most speakers set to 0 (zero) feet!!! In sum a mess. All my speakers are Martin Logan (except for the two rear surrounds - it is a 7.1 configuration).
So, is this a bug ? Should I contact Denon ? I know I could increase the listening positions but according to what I read in this thread this would not affect the time distance which to me is the most grievous mistake.
Any thoughts ???

I stronly suspect a bad mic.

"If you go to speaker configuration menu and change the setting to small.."

Wouldn't screw up the fre response if the subs and mains don't have the same responses as each other between the new and old XO freq's?

Thanks

Two RSW-15's stacked for the front sub out, and a Definitive Supercube Reference In the back for the rear sub out. All speakers are set to small with 80hz crossover setting.

Well, hang in there because this is not typical.

Let me ask some questions. Don't take offense; just covering bases.

Was it quiet in the room?

Yes, very quiet.

How reverberant is the room?

Not a lot, normal, as a matter of fact it is on the "low" side for reverberant.


Was your first position (the "primary listening position") reasonably symetrical to the speaker array?

Yep. I did use a Pioneer Elite before with MCACC in the same setup and everything came out all right.



Did you use this position through just the first long "speaker detect" (sometimes 45 seconds between side surround back tones and back surround tones)? If so, you're okay so far.

Try again and let us know how it goes.
I did use the symetrical location and have tried a couple of times, every time the same result: front speaker small, and 0 feet for distance.
When I try any EQ at all it sounds terrible, very noisy. The crossover of course is all wrong starting at 250 !!!

Noah,

I don't think so. In fact it will allow for a proper splice between sub and mains which sums to make the proper splice. But...we are going to confirm this with electrical measurement asap. If possible, I will post the RTA plot to demo.

Hyabusha,

So you have two sub locations. Are they equadistant from the "primary listening location?" If not, MultEQ in the 4806 will not be able to resolve the sub (it presumes one sub) having two arrival times. This could result in MultEQ making bad decisions about the low frequencies. Same could happen if one of them is in a very bad acoustic location. I run two subs, but they could not be equadistant and acoustically correct. The only fix was to delay one sub seperately, then match the levels of the two seperately. Then MultEQ was tricked into treating both subs as one. Works great.

Sergiohm,

I would look into a return and swap for that unit. That's looks like a major failure out of the box. If your dealer has another, you might talk him into letting you try another mic from that one. But be prepared to go for a swap if that doesn't work.

I posed these questions in two other threads, 4806 auditioned and bought and Denon avr5805 arrived (since question #1 is an Audessey issue) but received no responses. Maybe some here might have some ideas or suggestions. This is my first experience with higher end components so I don't know much about them.


Here are the questions:
"1) Since the 4806 will be in a different room from the theater, I needed a longer cord for the set up mic. The extension cord that I purchased, I believe it was intended for headphones (unbeKnown to me), has stereo plugs but I noticed the mic is mono. Will the Auto setup be done correctly using this cord? I spoke with the vendor of the cable and they said they think it will work but didn't really know. If this won't work, does anyone know where I can purchase a compatable mono cord 20 - 25'?

2) Reading through the user manual, I'm still a little confused. If I want to set up a second zone and also have 7.1 in the theater do I have to use the rear surrounds for zone 2 and surrounds A and B for my side and rear surrounds in the theater or can I use surround A and rear surround for the theater and surround B for zone 2? Will it make a difference with the 7.1 set up if surround B is used for the rear instead of rear surround?

Thanks to anyone who may have answers."

For #1 you might say try it and see. I intend to do that when everything is in place, but how will I know if it actually did the setup correctly. I guess if it sounds good then it worked.

Thanks for listening.

Here are the questions:
"1) Since the 4806 will be in a different room from the theater, I needed a longer cord for the set up mic. The extension cord that I purchased, I believe it was intended for headphones (unbeKnown to me), has stereo plugs but I noticed the mic is mono. Will the Auto setup be done correctly using this cord? I spoke with the vendor of the cable and they said they think it will work but didn't really know. If this won't work, does anyone know where I can purchase a compatable mono cord 20 - 25'?

2) Reading through the user manual, I'm still a little confused. If I want to set up a second zone and also have 7.1 in the theater do I have to use the rear surrounds for zone 2 and surrounds A and B for my side and rear surrounds in the theater or can I use surround A and rear surround for the theater and surround B for zone 2? Will it make a difference with the 7.1 set up if surround B is used for the rear instead of rear surround?


1)If I am thinking correctly using a stereo mini-plug extension on a mono connection should not be a problem. My guess is that you will be able to tell if it is a problem or not immediately (i.e. it will get no signal while testing the speakers and will let you know...)

2) You might need to reword this question, as it is not quite clear to me what you are asking (which might be why you haven't gotten any responses).

My answer to what I think you are asking: The amplifier and speaker connection assignments are flexible as you will notice when you set it up in the menus. I believe you can set the a or b surround connections (and some of the others) for the extra zones. You don't have to specifically use the rear connections. BOTTOM LINE:The only real limitation if you have a 7.1 setup in the main zone is that you won't be able to simultaneously run 7.1 surround and the second zone because there are not that many amps in the reciever.

Being limited by the speaker connections on the back would only occur if 1) you want to have a 3rd stereo zone, 2) you want to biamp the front speakers , or 3) You have 2 seperate speaker set ups in the main zone for surround music versus surround cinema (since they have different optimal speaker arrangements, which is discussed in the manual).

Probably clear as mud, but when you play with the amp settings you will figure this stuff out.

Able, thanks for the response. Hopefully the cable will work since it was the only one I could find.

Sorry my second question wasn't clear. I think you got the gist of it. I will be running 7.1 in the theater and I also want to set up a second zone for stereo listening outside the theater. I do not intend to run both at the same time. I believe that the documentation shows the second zone on the rear speaker inputs and that's what was confusing me. I wanted to use the rear speaker inputs for 7.1 in the theater and use either surround A or B for zone two. If I had to use the rear speaker inputs for zone two, I wasn't sure if I could use surround A for side surrounds and surround B for rear surrounds.

Thanks again for the response. Enjoy your 4806.

Well, although I'm quite sure I had wired my speakers correctly, I decided to follow the 4806 analysis and swapped the cables for the front l/r, center (according to the receiver they were out-of-phase) and back surround l/r. Then setup complained the back surround were not connected! So, I went and rechecked the cables (long-run cables), after rechecking, ran again and the receiver complained the back surround l/r were out-of-phase! So, I swapped the cables (back to their original position) and ran again. Voila! Finally I got through the speaker detection phase! Why on earth does it think my front l/r and center were out-of-phase I do not know.
So finally ran the last phase and chose 6 positions to get a better EQ. At the end it told me I had all small speakers (not true but hey who am I to argue ?), but it correctly set the time/distance and the crossover looked alright.
Reading through this thread, I read that for eletrostatic (I have 5 Marting Logans) it would be advisable to do readings at the same position at two different height levels, so I re-ran everything again and chose 8 positions (in reality 4 positions taken at 2 different height levels). And now yes got the results I wanted, Front L/R-Large, Surrond L/R-Large, the rest Small and the crossover looked alright.
I'm still puzzled as to the phase issue with the Front and Center, given the problem I had with the back surrounds, I suspect it maybe a cable issue although the Fronts have pretty good cabling (Audio Quest Granite) and the Center a Monster with a good gauge.
In the end a Happy Ending with a Mystery :)
The sound is really great, the Audyssey and Flat EQs sounding really fine, my son (6-year old) is already watching his movie while I got do some chores - wish I could join him :o

Well, although I'm quite sure I had wired my speakers correctly, I decided to follow the 4806 analysis and swapped the cables for the front l/r, center (according to the receiver they were out-of-phase) and back surround l/r. Then setup complained the back surround were not connected! So, I went and rechecked the cables (long-run cables), after rechecking, ran again and the receiver complained the back surround l/r were out-of-phase! So, I swapped the cables (back to their original position) and ran again. Voila! Finally I got through the speaker detection phase! Why on earth does it think my front l/r and center were out-of-phase I do not know.
So finally ran the last phase and chose 6 positions to get a better EQ. At the end it told me I had all small speakers (not true but hey who am I to argue ?), but it correctly set the time/distance and the crossover looked alright.
Reading through this thread, I read that for eletrostatic (I have 5 Marting Logans) it would be advisable to do readings at the same position at two different height levels, so I re-ran everything again and chose 8 positions (in reality 4 positions taken at 2 different height levels). And now yes got the results I wanted, Front L/R-Large, Surrond L/R-Large, the rest Small and the crossover looked alright.
I'm still puzzled as to the phase issue with the Front and Center, given the problem I had with the back surrounds, I suspect it maybe a cable issue although the Fronts have pretty good cabling (Audio Quest Granite) and the Center a Monster with a good gauge.
In the end a Happy Ending with a Mystery :)
The sound is really great, the Audyssey and Flat EQs sounding really fine, my son (6-year old) is already watching his movie while I got do some chores - wish I could join him :o

Note that I would NOT swap the connections just because the auto setup tells you that the speaker MIGHT be out of phase. It is just taking a guess based on the tests. I would just double/triple check the connections. I have run set up many times (experimenting...) and it occasionally throws a possible out of phase flag up, but my speakers are not out of phase.

Running the 8300HD STB to the HDMI port (which is HDCP compatible) on my display works well. Audio is handled by running the digital optical audio from the 8300 to the AVR-4806. The monitor is set to recognize all formats except 480I.

I purchased the 4806 primarily for its HDMI switching capability and decoders. When I send the 8300HD to the 4806 via HDMI (both video and audio), things get real ugly. Hitting the "Guide" button, the "My DVR" button, or when the scan rate changes formats, the 4806 looses the video signal. I have to either shut off the 4806 or change inputs so that the unit reaquires the video. Doesn't matter in what sequence the equipment is turned on, any change in format or function causes this loss of video. As long as the scan rate stays the same between channels, there is no loss of video.

It appears to me that when the scan rate changes, or some other function on the remote is chosen, the 8300HD momentarily stops sending the video feed. The only way to reaquire the video is to cycle the 4806 off or reselect the TV input. This lets the 4806 reaquire the signal. I have been through all of the video setup options on the AVR, but nothing I do overcomes this. Since there are so many settings on the 4806, I may have missed something.

Unless there is an advanced setting on the STB that can be adjusted, I can't really blame the 8300 because everything is fine when it is hooked up directly to the monitor.

Does anyone have this momentary loss of video with their STB, and is there an adjustment that can be made?

Thanks!

Note that I would NOT swap the connections just because the auto setup tells you that the speaker MIGHT be out of phase. It is just taking a guess based on the tests. I would just double/triple check the connections. I have run set up many times (experimenting...) and it occasionally throws a possible out of phase flag up, but my speakers are not out of phase.
In my case if I get the connections back to what they are, the EQ is totally messed-up, no time/distance, crossover incorrect and so on. Strange indeed. :rolleyes:

In my case if I get the connections back to what they are, the EQ is totally messed-up, no time/distance, crossover incorrect and so on. Strange indeed. :rolleyes:

I agree with Abell, I would trust my eyes making sure the speakers are corrected properly rather than the Denon. Get someone else to double check them if you need to. Once you're sure they're hooked up correctly keep running the EQ till it gets it right.

Running the 8300HD STB to the HDMI port (which is HDCP compatible) on my display works well. Audio is handled by running the digital optical audio from the 8300 to the AVR-4806. The monitor is set to recognize all formats except 480I.

I purchased the 4806 primarily for its HDMI switching capability and decoders. When I send the 8300HD to the 4806 via HDMI (both video and audio), things get real ugly. Hitting the "Guide" button, the "My DVR" button, or when the scan rate changes formats, the 4806 looses the video signal. I have to either shut off the 4806 or change inputs so that the unit reaquires the video. Doesn't matter in what sequence the equipment is turned on, any change in format or function causes this loss of video. As long as the scan rate stays the same between channels, there is no loss of video.

It appears to me that when the scan rate changes, or some other function on the remote is chosen, the 8300HD momentarily stops sending the video feed. The only way to reaquire the video is to cycle the 4806 off or reselect the TV input. This lets the 4806 reaquire the signal. I have been through all of the video setup options on the AVR, but nothing I do overcomes this. Since there are so many settings on the 4806, I may have missed something.

Unless there is an advanced setting on the STB that can be adjusted, I can't really blame the 8300 because everything is fine when it is hooked up directly to the monitor.

Does anyone have this momentary loss of video with their STB, and is there an adjustment that can be made?

Thanks!

I have the same box, but on the Cablevision system. Not sure if they are running the same OS.

Is the HDMI output on the 8300HD set to auto? From your description, it sounds like it is. I notice a loss of video when the 8300HD changes resolutions, but I am hooked up directly to the TV's DVI input.

I have the same box, but on the Cablevision system. Not sure if they are running the same OS.

Is the HDMI output on the 8300HD set to auto? From your description, it sounds like it is. I notice a loss of video when the 8300HD changes resolutions, but I am hooked up directly to the TV's DVI input.


Thanks for the reply DCIFRTHS. Yes, the 8300 is set for auto and there is no problem when it is outputted directly to the TV. It's when I connect the STB to the AVR that the problem occurs. I'm glad to hear someone else sees the loss of video though. It's that loss that confuses the AVR.

Joe wanabe & Abell 2218,

I have the same doubt as Joe, and I want to say that after reading many times the instructions it doesn't be clear for me if you can or cannot setup a 7.1 main zone plus a second amplified one.

Reading the "AVC-A11XV_DFU" *pdf, page 49, it states that:

"Setting the power amplifier assingment......

.....Surround B

the surround B amplifiers can be reassigned if they are not being used in the main room, and the surround A are used either the surround or the fornt channels.

Front B

this mode sets the surround b channels to drive a second set of stereo outputs that match the front right and left speakers providing a stereo B option for another location (page 47)"

At this point I would answer without any doubt that you can get a 7.1 + ampliffied Z2.

But when you go to the 47, you get the next:

"Setting second channel stereo"

There is an explanation of the options you have, and nowhere is any mention about Zone2/3. Moreover, on the "Setting the power amplifier assingment", on the Surround back options, it gives you many ways on zone2-zone3 settings.

And finally, if you go to pages 37-38, you can see that if you want to get 7.1, you can't have zone2/3 amplified channels. And if you want multiroom amplification, you only would have a 5.1 in the main room.

Anyway, could you Abell test what happens when you set surround b as front b, setting a second channel stereo. What is this option intended to?

cheers

juan

Joe wanabe & Abell 2218,

I have the same doubt as Joe, and I want to say that after reading many times the instructions it doesn't be clear for me if you can or cannot setup a 7.1 main zone plus a second amplified one.

Reading the "AVC-A11XV_DFU" *pdf, page 49, it states that:

"Setting the power amplifier assingment......

.....Surround B

the surround B amplifiers can be reassigned if they are not being used in the main room, and the surround A are used either the surround or the fornt channels.

Front B

this mode sets the surround b channels to drive a second set of stereo outputs that match the front right and left speakers providing a stereo B option for another location (page 47)"

At this point I would answer without any doubt that you can get a 7.1 + ampliffied Z2.

But when you go to the 47, you get the next:

"Setting second channel stereo"

There is an explanation of the options you have, and nowhere is any mention about Zone2/3. Moreover, on the "Setting the power amplifier assingment", on the Surround back options, it gives you many ways on zone2-zone3 settings.

And finally, if you go to pages 37-38, you can see that if you want to get 7.1, you can't have zone2/3 amplified channels. And if you want multiroom amplification, you only would have a 5.1 in the main room.

Anyway, could you Abell test what happens when you set surround b as front b, setting a second channel stereo. What is this option intended to?

cheers

juan

The surround A or the surround back outputs can be assigned as the outputs for zones 2 or 3 . So if you wanted a 7.1 setup and a zone 2 stereo you could wire it that way, simply assign surround A as zone 2 and use surround B and surround back as the surround outputs. Again, you can't run them sumultaneously, since there are "only" 7 amps in the system. Of course you could always buy a seperate stereo amp and use the zone line levels outs if you really wanted to run them simultaneously...

Hope that helps, if not then play around with it and you will figure it out. The Denon manuals are never that user friendly.

The surround A or the surround back outputs can be assigned as the outputs for zones 2 or 3 . So if you wanted a 7.1 setup and a zone 2 stereo you could wire it that way, simply assign surround A as zone 2 and use surround B and surround back as the surround outputs. Again, you can't run them sumultaneously, since there are "only" 7 amps in the system. Of course you could always buy a seperate stereo amp and use the zone line levels outs if you really wanted to run them simultaneously...

Hope that helps, if not then play around with it and you will figure it out. The Denon manuals are never that user friendly.
But they are (the manuals) getting better.

dc

The surround A or the surround back outputs can be assigned as the outputs for zones 2 or 3 . So if you wanted a 7.1 setup and a zone 2 stereo you could wire it that way, simply assign surround A as zone 2 and use surround B and surround back as the surround outputs. Again, you can't run them sumultaneously, since there are "only" 7 amps in the system. Of course you could always buy a seperate stereo amp and use the zone line levels outs if you really wanted to run them simultaneously...

Hope that helps, if not then play around with it and you will figure it out. The Denon manuals are never that user friendly.

Abell,

your help is much appreciated because I'm not an 4806 owner (so I cannot test at the moment), but it enters on future plans.

So the Surround B would be the side surrounds?

The manual says:

"The surround A power amplifier channel can be assigned if surround B is not activated in the main zone:

Front: ....

Front B: ....

Zone 2: .....

Zone 3: .....

...."

If that is true, then you can only reassign surround A channels when surround B are not assigned to main room. Have you tested it?

Regards

Juan

Abell,

your help is much appreciated because I'm not an 4806 owner (so I cannot test at the moment), but it enters on future plans.

So the Surround B would be the side surrounds?

The manual says:

"The surround A power amplifier channel can be assigned if surround B is not activated in the main zone:

Front: ....

Front B: ....

Zone 2: .....

Zone 3: .....

...."

If that is true, then you can only reassign surround A channels when surround B are not assigned to main room. Have you tested it?

Regards

Juan

All I have done is run through the menus as described above and reassigned the amps. I am only running 5.1 currrently and don't have an extra set of speakers wired to test your question in its entirety and see if the amps reassign as needed. (i.e. to use as zone 2 while having 7.1 set up)

If I get the time and inclination I may try and run the entire scenario for you, but busy redoing my pronto right now.

The wording from the manual is unclear:"The surround A power amplifier channel can be assigned if surround B is not activated in the main zone" though I would read that as you can use the surround a amp reassignment if the surround B is not being used (again , you can't do them simultaneously because of the number of amps.

I am also hesitant to run the tests without speakers hooked up to all the outputs: it is bad to run amps live with no speakers hooked up.

It sure seems to be a lot of complaining of the auto EQ stuff not working correctly on this model and the 5805, Is that the correct feeling/conculusion the users that DO have the 4806 already ? If so, this is giving me a bad feeling on this unit that has not even arrived to me yet (it is on the way via UPS).

One of the big reasons I got this unit (unseen, un-previewed, unheard) was:

1. The 'buzz' on these forumns

2. The nice stylish Silver finish that has a high W.A.F. (wife approval factor)

3. The high reviews of the matching DVD-3910 DVD player.

4. The great price I got on a A-Stock (both receiver and dvd player), sealed from an authorized Denon dealer willing to ship accross the country.

All I have done is run through the menus as described above and reassigned the amps. I am only running 5.1 currrently and don't have an extra set of speakers wired to test your question in its entirety and see if the amps reassign as needed. (i.e. to use as zone 2 while having 7.1 set up)

If I get the time and inclination I may try and run the entire scenario for you, but busy redoing my pronto right now.

The wording from the manual is unclear:"The surround A power amplifier channel can be assigned if surround B is not activated in the main zone" though I would read that as you can use the surround a amp reassignment if the surround B is not being used (again , you can't do them simultaneously because of the number of amps.

I am also hesitant to run the tests without speakers hooked up to all the outputs: it is bad to run amps live with no speakers hooked up.

Abell,

I don't want you to waste your time testing settings you are not going to use. I was asking if it wouldn't give you any headache ;)

It would be better to try in a hi-fi shop.

cheers

juan

It sure seems to be a lot of complaining of the auto EQ stuff not working correctly on this model and the 5805, Is that the correct feeling/conculusion the users that DO have the 4806 already ? If so, this is giving me a bad feeling on this unit that has not even arrived to me yet (it is on the way via UPS).

What is your definition of "a lot"?

One person in this thread is having some problems setting up his Martin Logans but all indications are that progress is being made.

Others are playing around with it to see what it can and cannot do.

Doesn't meet my definition of "a lot" by few thousand people. :)

More news on setting up the EQ. I watched a whole movie yesterday (using the Audyssey EQ), the Woodsman with Kevin Bacon (pretty good), the sound was very good, the filme has subtle effects and the receiver sure showed them quite well, my wife even heard some noises (from the movie) and she thought there were people outside :)

I did turn EQ off and watched some scenes a bit and to my ears the EQ ON was way better.

Now on the phase mystery, I did recheck the cables and their original positions looked correct to me. However, I tested the phase on the L/R fronts using the Stereophile test CD2 and to my amazement they passed the test (with the cables as the Denon receiver told me they should be - so reversed, not in their original position). So mystery goes on, tomorrow I'll try to set the cables back to their original position and run the EQ again. I've also not hooked up the HDMI and DVI sources yet, they are going straight to the projector and I may try that tomorrow (I hate handling cables but hey somebody's gotta do it!).

I think Denon has made a mistake in their digital input though. In some other brands each input has an order: firewire->digital(opt/coax)->analog, that is the receiver will look up firewire first, if not active then digital and finally analog. Apparently the Denon does not work that way. I have two DVD players (one multi-region) and so I used the trick of connecting one via firewire and the other via optical but both sharing the DVD function. The 4806 does not do that on the fly, because I assigned DVD to firewire, it changes the Optical connection to off (even if the firewire device, in this case, the other DVD player is not active). So to listen to the other DVD I have to go to Setup and then choose DVD to be associated to Opt3. I know I could assign the other DVD to VDP but it does seem a little bit "clunky". What if I want to listen to a CD player sometimes via its analog connection at other times via its digital connection? Can't I do that ? I admit I have not read the whole manual but I have not seen a button on the remote where I could choose for a particular function what connection to use. Any thoughts?

What if I want to listen to a CD player sometimes via its analog connection at other times via its digital connection? Can't I do that ? I admit I have not read the whole manual but I have not seen a button on the remote where I could choose for a particular function what connection to use. Any thoughts?

Just press the Input Mode or Analog button on the Remote depending on whether you want to listen to the Digital or Analog source. They're at the bottom left on the remote (INPT and ANLG). :)

Hi everyone, this thread Is taking off well! I need an opinion, I came across a great deal on a 5805, but I'm not sure I should take It. I have all Monster Amps for my 7 speakers so I'm just using the 4806 as a pre-amp. Is there "any" real good reason I should take the offer? I 'm not doing any multi room stuff. Thanks

Multiple sub-outs and configurations?

sell your Monsters and bi-amp?

Have you listened to the 4806 amps at all?

If so, what did you think?

It sure seems to be a lot of complaining of the auto EQ stuff not working correctly on this model and the 5805, Is that the correct feeling/conculusion the users that DO have the 4806 already ? If so, this is giving me a bad feeling on this unit that has not even arrived to me yet (it is on the way via UPS).

One of the big reasons I got this unit (unseen, un-previewed, unheard) was:

1. The 'buzz' on these forumns

2. The nice stylish Silver finish that has a high W.A.F. (wife approval factor)

3. The high reviews of the matching DVD-3910 DVD player.

4. The great price I got on a A-Stock (both receiver and dvd player), sealed from an authorized Denon dealer willing to ship accross the country.


The feedback I would give you is that

1) the auto EQ is still a bit quirky.

2) I vastly prefer the sound I get with the auto EQ.

Note that I also have the 3910 and I use the DL3 connection, so get a pure digital feed into the receiver without any extra conversions on all sound formats (through one cable).

I hope they fix the quirks, but I don't regret getting the unit.

My Monster Amps are staying, I'm only Interested In the high end Denon recievers as Pre-Amps. So should I just keep my awesome 4806 or take the plunge to the 5805? Thanks

My Monster Amps are staying, I'm only Interested In the high end Denon recievers as Pre-Amps. So should I just keep my awesome 4806 or take the plunge to the 5805? Thanks
I do not see any reason for you to move to the 5805 since you are not doing multi-room. The 5805 has the Realta processing for video which might be attractive to you, one extra 7.1 (you can hook up both a DVD-A and SACD players via analogue for example) and a bunch of other possible configurations. The 5805 however does not do component to HDMI conversion.
Take care

All my video Is going thru my reciever, so Is the realta going to help my video? And Isn't the 5805 going to be updated to do component to HDMI? Thanks sergiohm. I'm leaning to keep my 4806 now.

"The 5805 has the Realta processing for video "

The 5805 has Faroudja DCDi; it's one of the Denon DVD players that has the Realta chip.

the dvd player noah was referring to is the denon dvd-5910 which at the moment is the only denon to use the realta chipset.

i have had my avr-4806 for several weeks now (i posted originally in the auditioning the 4806 thread) and have been extremely pleased with it. i had the 5805 before that and had internal power amp issues that forced me to return it. my original unit that i used to trade in was a 3805. overall the one thing i hated most in the 5805 and 4806 was the remote and i fixed that problem with a urc-100 (a mostly button remote) and have tried out the htm 850 but liked the urc 100 better.

cheers
joe

the dvd player noah was referring to is the denon dvd-5910 which at the moment is the only denon to use the realta chipset.

i have had my avr-4806 for several weeks now (i posted originally in the auditioning the 4806 thread) and have been extremely pleased with it. i had the 5805 before that and had internal power amp issues that forced me to return it. my original unit that i used to trade in was a 3805. overall the one thing i hated most in the 5805 and 4806 was the remote and i fixed that problem with a urc-100 (a mostly button remote) and have tried out the htm 850 but liked the urc 100 better.

cheers
joe

What was wrong with the amps in the 5805?

i just posted this in another thread on upcoming denons. but there is an interesting note about in the field upgrading of the 5805 and 4806. enjoy...

Pinebrook, N.J. — In adding six new models to this year’s eight-SKU line of A/V receivers, Denon is making its receivers more custom-friendly, expanding its selection of models priced at a suggested $1,000 and up, expanding its selection of XM-ready models, and incorporating automatic room equalization in more models.

“We’re offering more custom options at multiple price points,” said marketing manager Jeff Talmadge. They include “exceptional control capabilities,” ease of installation and use, and ease of integration with other custom brands, he said.

The company is also expanding its selection of universal SACD/DVD-Audio players and its selection of DVD players with HD up-scaling HDMI outputs.

In its receiver lineup, Denon is:

expanding its selection of receivers with automatic room equalization and auto setup to seven from two starting at $699.
expanding its selection of XM-ready A/V receivers to four from one. Models at a suggested $699, $1,299, and $1,999 join the $3,499 AVR-4806 model, introduced earlier this year.
beefed up its $1,000+ receiver lineup to four SKUs from three with the launch of the $1,999 AVR-4306 and $1,299 AVR-3806, joining the $3,499 4806 and $5,999 AVR-5805, which shipped late last year and remains the company’s only receiver with HD up-scaling HDMI output. In 2004, the company had two $1,000+ receivers.
extended seven-channel amplification to all models, all of which also feature the ability to assign amps to deliver 5.1-channel surround sound to a home theater while simultaneously powering second-zone stereo speakers. Seven-channel amps that can be assigned start at a suggested $329.
The company also announced September availability of in-the-field upgrades to two current A/V receivers, the $5,999 AVR-5805 and $3,500 AVR-4806. The upgrades let the receivers stream music from a Windows XP PC, stream Internet radio stations directly from a broadband modem, and let custom installers diagnose the unit remotely over the Internet. The upgrades will be available as a download or on a CD-ROM. The upgrades would be transferred to the receivers via a laptop PC.

In DVD, Denon expanded its selection of universal players to four from three with a new model at a suggested $369, reducing the opening-price point from $699. The $369 model features HD up-scaling HDMI output and no DVI output. The three current universal models feature upscaling DVI and HDMI outputs. All four models up-scale to user-selectable 480p, 720p and 1,080i resolutions. Last year, another DVD-Video player featured HD up-scaling DVI output at a suggested $279.

Here are the details on select products:

The company’s first XM-ready receiver, the $3,499-suggested AVR-4806, began shipping earlier this year with analog-to-HDMI up-conversion and multizone capability with independent second-zone source and volume control.
the AVR-4306 at a suggested $1,999 is XM-ready and features HDMI up-conversion and automatic room equalization. It ships in October in silver and black.
The AVR-3806 adds multiple features over the model it will replace, including XM-ready capability, HDMI switching and automatic room EQ.
the AVR-2106 at a suggested $699 adds XM-ready capability and room EQ to its predecessor’s feature list. It’s due in August in black.
the AVR-1906 at $549, already available, adds auto setup and component-video up-conversion to its predecessor’s feature list.
The AVR-1706 and AVR-1506 at $449 and $329, respectively, also get refreshed features.
For its S series of two-speaker virtual-surround systems with iPod docks, the company is looking to broaden distribution to sellers of flat-panel TVs, including such major chains as Best Buy, Fry’s and such up-scale catalogs as Sharper Image. The company has a limited Sears presence.

cheers
joe

dcifrths,

while i had the 5805 the power just seemed to be very weak all the way to +9 (i believe that was the max it would go). at 0.0 i could have a normal conversation with someone in the room and not be drowned out by the 5805. i have inquired from my sales rep at hifi buys about the unit, but he hasnt heard a thing since it went to service.

joe

dcifrths,

while i had the 5805 the power just seemed to be very weak all the way to +9 (i believe that was the max it would go). at 0.0 i could have a normal conversation with someone in the room and not be drowned out by the 5805. i have inquired from my sales rep at hifi buys about the unit, but he hasnt heard a thing since it went to service.

joe


Do you plan on keeping the 4806 or switching back to the 5805?

I'm interested in finding out what's wrong with the 5805. If you hear, please post back.

Thanks!

dcifrths,

at this time i do not plan on going back to the 5805. power problems aside, the physical size of the 5805 was a real problem for me. another problem i had with the 5805 was heat and it may have been due to the power problem. it put out an unreal amount and i ended up using a small fan to keep it cool.

if i hear back on what was wrong with it i'll let you know.

cheers
joe

I am looking at purchasing the 4806 with a 3910 DVD player. I want to be able to run this to an Optoma H78DC3 projector in my 7.1 HT but would also like to share the DVD player and 2 other HDMI components with 2 plasma's in different rooms. Will the 4806 only allow 1 display out? If that is the case does anyone have any ideas about how I can connect the PJ and 2 plasma's to the 3910? I had a look at HDMI switchers and they seem to be 2:1 or 4:1 and I suppose I need some sort of matrix?

pcarey,

you're out of my realm here, i've only have one display that runs off the 4806. try looking at some of the video forums for your answer. also try using the search function and see what comes up.

good luck

joe

I am looking at purchasing the 4806 with a 3910 DVD player. I want to be able to run this to an Optoma H78DC3 projector in my 7.1 HT but would also like to share the DVD player and 2 other HDMI components with 2 plasma's in different rooms. Will the 4806 only allow 1 display out? If that is the case does anyone have any ideas about how I can connect the PJ and 2 plasma's to the 3910? I had a look at HDMI switchers and they seem to be 2:1 or 4:1 and I suppose I need some sort of matrix?


The 4806 does only have 1 HDMI out.

I think Gefen has quite a few matrix switching solutions, though they are not cheap. Or you could just go with a splitter, if you are not going to be running different sources simultaneously.

Hey guys,

I am new to Denon. What is the trick to using the discrete codes in Pronto software (CCF)? I have tried everything I can think of to type in the code, but I always get a "invalid ir code" notice. The codes I have are the Denon pdf for 4806 from their website.

cam man,

go to www.remotecentral.com

there you will find the pronto forums and some very friendly people who really know and love thier pronto that will be more than happen to help you out.

cheers
joe

Quick question: For those that have a 4806, do you ever get "clicks" while turning up the volume in certain audio formats? For instance, when I'm turning up the volume while in pure direct mode while listening to a CD, I can hear "clicks" at each volume level number as I turn the knob or press the volume control on the remote. They are not loud, but you can hear them. Is this normal, what causes it?

Silly me, I thought it was the Realta processing the 5805 had but it is indeed Faroudja.

Ok, no news about the phase problem, did not have time to swap cables and recalibrate.

I did manage to hookup one HDMI and a DVI device and use the switching. It all went well, but I do have a couple of questions:

1) I noticed that the image (through HDMI) seems to lack "black" detail through the 4806. Is it just me?
2) When I change the volume on the 4806 it does not show up on the screen if the device (or function as it is called in the manual) is connected via component or HDMI. Only devices connected through Composite and S-VHS show up. Isn't that a bug?
3) The Faroudja processing is missed I guess. The image coming from the Composite and S-VHS through HDMI do not look all that great (we all know it is not the best image), I had the impression that when they were going directly to the projector they did not look that bad, but I need to reevaluate that to be sure and it is going to take a while to get all the cables back again.
4) I'm confused by what is in the manual. It states that the HDMI connection supports 480i (and 576i - European resolution I guess) only. What does that mean? My SD receiver supports 720p through DVI, does it mean it will be scaled down? Or about in the future, where HD-DVD players will probably be 720p or even 1080p?

Another update. Hooked up the XM Connect antenna (gotta use everything) and interestingly enough, I had to power off the receiver twice so that the antenna got recognized. After registration, it takes up 20 minutes or so for the channels to show up but the sound is great and it is nice to have text info on what you're hearing on the radio. There is a caveat but I think it is expected, you cannot record digitally the sound coming from XM Radio, only analogue :(

I had one glitch yesterday, the firewire connection dropped when I switched discs, I placed a SACD on my universal player hit play and no sound came out. I had to power off the receiver and then everything was back on track.

.... Another update. Hooked up the XM Connect antenna (gotta use everything) and interestingly enough, I had to power off the receiver twice so that the antenna got recognized. After registration, it takes up 20 minutes or so for the channels to show up but the sound is great and it is nice to have text info on what you're hearing on the radio. There is a caveat but I think it is expected, you cannot record digitally the sound coming from XM Radio, only analogue :( ....


Where did you place the XM antenna? What directions does it face?

I get no reception where I am.

Joe, thanks. I had missed them there earlier. Found them this a.m.

Where did you place the XM antenna? What directions does it face?

I get no reception where I am.
I just placed it on top of my entertainement center and did not even pay attention :)
I checked it out, it is facing East, I did get a couple of break-ups yesterday so today I'll place it facing South (that is where the Satellite Dish is pointing to) and test to see whether I do not get any break-ups.

i...The company also announced September availability of in-the-field upgrades to two current A/V receivers, the $5,999 AVR-5805 and $3,500 AVR-4806. The upgrades let the receivers stream music from a Windows XP PC, stream Internet radio stations directly from a broadband modem, and let custom installers diagnose the unit remotely over the Internet. The upgrades will be available as a download or on a CD-ROM. The upgrades would be transferred to the receivers via a laptop PC.

Jallis,

is there any notice about the software that the receiver would use to stream pc data? Is going to be only music or images and video too?

cheers

Juan

I just placed it on top of my entertainement center and did not even pay attention :)
I checked it out, it is facing East, I did get a couple of break-ups yesterday so today I'll place it facing South (that is where the Satellite Dish is pointing to) and test to see whether I do not get any break-ups.

Are ther a lot of windows nearby? House or apt?

Are ther a lot of windows nearby? House or apt?
It is a house, there are lots of windows around the room.

[QUOTE=sergiohm]

I did manage to hookup one HDMI and a DVI device and use the switching. It all went well, but I do have a couple of questions:

2) When I change the volume on the 4806 it does not show up on the screen if the device (or function as it is called in the manual) is connected via component or HDMI. Only devices connected through Composite and S-VHS show up. Isn't that a bug?
QUOTE]

The digital inputs only show Menus and the OSD display. The control input confirmation doesn't display. This is probably a good compromise, as I don't want my picture down rezzing to 480I every time I hit the volume control, but don't mind it for setup or OSD display.



Allen

Hey guys,

I am new to Denon. What is the trick to using the discrete codes in Pronto software (CCF)? I have tried everything I can think of to type in the code, but I always get a "invalid ir code" notice. The codes I have are the Denon pdf for 4806 from their website.

You can find a .CCF file with all of the Denon discrete codes for the 4806 at RemoteCentral.com. I converted them to a .PCF file, and renamed the functions from "function 224" to the real function name like "Power On". Shoot me a message and I will send you my .PCF file that you can back convert to a .CCF.

Cam Man,
good luck with the pronto at remotecentral.com let us know how it goes for you programming the pronto.

Venezolano,
no not yet, but if i hear about i'll definitely post it here.

Sergiohm,
put your XM antenna on the window sill facing south and you should get excellent reception. the 4806 will tell what the reception quality is. Do be careful with the xm info being displayed on screen on your tv. it does not go away after a period of time, so watch for burn in on the screen.

joe

The phase problem tamed at last !!!
Well let's get back to the beginning.
Getting the Denon 4806 Auto Speaker Setup to work well was quite a chore! It took me 2 days and my wife said I was going beserk listening to the receiver emitting the "woosh-woosh" sounds :)
First of all I recommend reading the excellent article about the Denon 5805 (http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/DenonAVR5805p1.php) on audioholics. Lots of info about Audyssey EQ and its quirks.

Second this is what I learned:

- Find a "hot spot" for the mic to be set up. And it is most likely not going to be a real listening position. Mine was not even fully "equidistant" of the 5 speakers (am not considering the back surround because that is almost impossible to be equidistant). The trick for me was to get the mic closer to the front speakers otherwise the EQ would insist on labeling my front speakers "Small" and placing a higher crossover for them than for the surround speakers!!! Which is very odd because my front speakers go lower than the Surrounds; it maybe to the fact that the Fronts are Martin Logans electrostatic (the back surrounds are as well but they use a different technology than the Fronts - they do not require an AC cord for example). Now the challenge is that if you get too close you will get "false" readings, easy to spot though, in my case it boosted too much all the speaker levels (including the subwoofer).

- Phase: this is somewhat of a mystery still. First, kuddos for the EQ for getting it right on the front speakers. It told me they were out-of-phase although the cables were wired correctly. I then unplugged one of the cables (a lot of work believe me, I have about 12 devices and a plethora of cables on the back of the entertainment center - it is a nightmare to take one cable out!) and to my surprise the cables (AudioQuest but assembled by a dealer) were inverting the polarity!!! That dealer is going to get a nasty phone call from me :mad:
Now the center speaker (another Martin Logan) is still a mystery. I pulled out the cable and rechecked a thousand times and it is wired correctly. Still the EQ reported they were out-of-phase, following the manual I decided to ignore it and all went fine. I'll take my AVIA out tonight and test to re-check the phase.

- EQ distance compensation: It was spot-on for all speakers except for the Center which was off by 1 feet or less. It may have to do with the fact that due to some constraints, the center speaker is sitting on top of the entertainment center (I know bad placement but there was no place else to put it, the projector screen when down would cover the speaker which is even worse - ok I could buy another screen but where is the money?).

Now what is next ? The HDMI seemed to not be passing black as it should. Investigation under way. I also plan to test whether this receiver can go head to head with a Krell stereo amplifier. I did some preliminary listening (but true before the EQ got sorted out) and although the sound from the 4806 was nice the Krell (which puts out 2x200W at 8 ohms doubling to 2x400W at 4 ohms) had more headroom. It is very noticeable on classical music, when the orchestra goes so does the Krell, the Denon does not increase in the same proportion.

And a final advice, getting the EQ right is a must. When it was wrong the sound was not good at all, bass bloating from the subwoofer and some background noise. And I did not take any chances and used a tripod. It is $20 at RadioShack and you can use with your camera as well :)

Sergiohm,

it is alot harder work than i think we all anticipated dont you think? in the
end if it all works and sounds great, i suppose thats what count right? i'm
not so sure. i am at this point seriously thinking separates.

keep us posted on your trials and tribulations

joe

Sergiohm,

it is alot harder work than i think we all anticipated dont you think? in the
end if it all works and sounds great, i suppose thats what count right? i'm
not so sure. i am at this point seriously thinking separates.

keep us posted on your trials and tribulations

joe

Hard work ???

Didn't you mean to say "it's a lot of fun setting up a new system and once you get it right it sure sounds great".

Hard work ???

Didn't you mean to say "it's a lot of fun setting up a new system and once you get it right it sure sounds great".

I'm sure that's what he meant! :D :D :D

I'm thinking of getting the 4806 for my 7.1 HT setup with NHT T6/M6 and L5s at the rear. The 4806 is rated at 140 watts per channel but the M6 recommendation is for 200 watts. The room is 20' by 17'. Should I look to put the 3 front speakers on a separate amp? Is anyone running Denon and NHT?

thanks....!

pcarey,

100 watts is the same as 120 watts and almost the same as 140 watts. Do you know that for a 3db increment you have to double the power?

Read the specifications. Minimum 15W- Maximum 250W. With a sensitivity of 86db/W/m, you will have a spl of 106 db!!!! You think that will need more power?

The issue you must chek is the current output and damping factor, but those speakers don't like specially hard.

cheers

Juan

Thanks all fine and dandy Juan, If your sitting one meter away from the loudspeakers. I have a feeling that pcarey is not that close in a room that size. So you can take at least 10-12db out of that equation. You will find out real quick you should be looking at an external amp (think 250+) with those speakers if you want to get anywhere near reference level.

Tom, I will probably be 12' away on the 1st row and 17' on the second. Can I mix and match so use an external amp for the front 3 and the Denon for the rears? Any suggestions on a good amp for this purpose? Also on the T6 system NHT provide an amp for the sub and also a device to manage cross over/gain etc for the sub(X1) - will this work with the EQ or will I need to fix the settings prior to EQ?

thaks again

Piers

Use the Denon for the rears, not much going on back there anyway. As far as integrating the subs and EQ, get it in your room 1st and then start tweaking. Lots of good Three channel amps out there, I'm personally using the Monster MPA 3350SS. They can be found online south of $1500 and it's a KILLER amp!

:eek: I need help, and you all are so advanced I'm lost. I have never been into the audio thing ( it was my X's) The system is around 8 years old, The system got hit by lighting, it came in on the cable line, and I didn't have any coax protection. So about half the system fried. I lost my sony 53" xbr, (looking at the Sony KDFE50A10) lost Denon AV2500,(looking at Denon 4806. I lost a Sony AX 401 amp and a Sony FM/Am toner.
I have Klipsch 2 centers 2 subs and 2 side and 2 rear speakers. What didn't get fired was the Adcom GFA 5300, the Russond SDB6 EZ, DVD, VHS and disk player. I drive two set of speakers on the patio, gameroom., master, office and garage. Will the Denon run all of this? I have had so many suggestion from a Rotel RSx1056, Rotel RX1052 and a Marant SR5500 and many others. I love movies, music but I know I don't have a great ear. This is alot of money to dish out but I want to do the best I can with my budget.
Thanks so much,
Leslee

Hey all you happy 4806 owners out there.

I've been reading avsforum for months now - my first post ever. I just unboxed and hooked up my 4806 this evening.

It looks as if this thread has died unfortunately?

I have noticed the HF harshness reported by quite a few. Cam Man mentioned a possible firmware upgrade for the 4806.

Any word on this?

I haven't checked on this in a while. Maybe it's time.

Hey all you happy 4806 owners out there.

I've been reading avsforum for months now - my first post ever. I just unboxed and hooked up my 4806 this evening.

It looks as if this thread has died unfortunately?

I have noticed the HF harshness reported by quite a few. Cam Man mentioned a possible firmware upgrade for the 4806.

Any word on this?
This is a link to the Denon download site (http://www.usa.denon.com/support/upgrades.asp) , I saw nothing there.
Can you describe what HF harshness you listen ? Probably what CD you are listening and so on ? Also have you applied the Audsyssey EQ ? Or flat ?
Take care

Another update. First the "black" problem when using HDMI was solved by changing HDMI Out Setup to Color Space[RGB] and RGB Mode Setup to [Enhanced]. Don't ask me why, I just know that the blacks were much more present and natural this way.

HDMI Switching is working fine but I did have one problem. The Satellite is connected using an DVI-HDMI cable (the DVI connection on the receiver is already taken by a DVD player). I set the Satellite (DBS in the Denon receiver) to HDMI-2. But note that the Satellite is also connected via component because my TV is an older model and has no digital connections only the projector. So, everything was working fine, I could watch the Satellite fine on the TV. At night I turned on the projector and everything was fine. In the morning I turned on the TV (projector was off) and surprise: no image! I had to go back to Setup and unassing the DBS from the HDMI so the image could come back. This looks like a bug to me and it only happens with the Satellite. The DVD is also connected in this manner (that is both through HDMI and component) and works fine. Does anyone know what is going on? I'll try some further investigation.

Sound wise things are fine although some preliminary audition indicates to me that to listen to Stereo it is better to use Direct if you have a good CD player (that is connected via analogue). Now if you want to use the receiver to listen to Stereo material (CDs) I recommend using Dolby PLIIx. The sound opens up considerably and the soundstage is really big. Comparing the Denon to the Krell (the Krell is the KAV-400xi) is sort of unfair since the Krell is more expensive considering it does not offer multi-channel, HDMI switching, etc. But anyway, the sound is darker through the Krell and the power reserve (200Wx8ohms) really tells specially in classical music, I also find the sound through the Krell less fatiguing. Now the Denon with the Audyssey EQ brings a "cleaner" sound, the room correction is certainly benefitial.

For the analogue folks, I tested the phono connection and it sounded very good, I was surprised the Denon even supports MC which is unusual in a receiver.

Now to the disappointment of the week, the headphone socket does not carry a lot of power. I hooked up my trusted Senheiser 600 and had to put the volume almost to the max! Is that a problem or a WAD (Working as Designed)? For listening to stereo is really disappointing. It is not a big deal for me because I rarely listen through headphones anymore but it may be an issue for some.

Quick update and warning. I had a short power outage (3-4 minutes at most). I turned on the receiver and all the settings (EQ, digital inputs assignment, etc.) had been lost!!! I was surprised. Should this happen?

Sergiohm-

Yeah, I finally figured out where the Denon firmware updates are hidden on their web page - thanks for the link.

I ran through the auto cal and then applied Audessy EQ and it seemed to produce the harshness expressed by Abell2218 (while watching a movie):

"I guess one thing he has already leaked is that it will 'fix' the omnidirectionality of the microphone (I know it is software not hardware...) so you don't have to point it at the speakers to try and get accurate measurements. Should also help with one issue I have noticed on mine: it tends to 'overcorrect' the high end a bit too hot (boosting the two high bands on my front speakers +6 = introducing some harshness to the sound )"

I'll need to rerun the Auto setup again and try out pointing the mic directly at the speakers to see if that changes the outcome. I also discovered that after putting the 4806 in my rack, I had inadvertently knocked my sub level control knob all the way low - I didn't discover this until the end of the movie I was watching to test things out. I just thought the LFE track sucked the whole time . . . :rolleyes:

I've only had about 2 precious hours with my new toy so I'm sure I have many more secrets to yet discover.

Cam Man -
Previously you posted:
"We're all kind of struggling/experimenting with that. If you go to speaker configuration menu and change the setting to small, then go to crossover settings, advanced, (last menu item), you may notice that the crossover is set to something less than 80 (maybe 60Hz as are my Klipsch KL-650s). Then go to subwoofer set up and check to see it is set to LFE/THX. Then you will have a meaningful set up where the mains will not be duplicating the subs in a phase non-coherent manner (which is the case if you set the sub to LFE+Main and the speaker left at large). The Audyssey green light will change to red because you have changed something that it chose, but its calculations and EQ will still be in effect, and you will be more accurately reproducing the original recording/mix (presuming that is your goal)."

Have you found this approach still applies best or have you discovered anything different? So if I just change my speakers to small (they are definitely not full range speakers and I would hate to hear them pretend to be) and make sure that my sub is set at LFE/THX, it will assure no overlapping between my speakers and sub?

Thanks in advance.

Now to the disappointment of the week, the headphone socket does not carry a lot of power. I hooked up my trusted Senheiser 600 and had to put the volume almost to the max! Is that a problem or a WAD (Working as Designed)? For listening to stereo is really disappointing. It is not a big deal for me because I rarely listen through headphones anymore but it may be an issue for some.

Quick update and warning. I had a short power outage (3-4 minutes at most). I turned on the receiver and all the settings (EQ, digital inputs assignment, etc.) had been lost!!! I was surprised. Should this happen?


I'll try out my Sen. 600's tonight and let you know if I get the same results.

I would think not. I'll be hooking up my older Denon 5700 tonight (replaced with the 4806 last night). I'm pretty sure it should keep those settings - the 5700 has been sitting unplugged overnight, so that should be a good test - if the many-year-old 5700 is OK, I would think the 4806 should be able to handle power outages. Have you seen anything in the manual about this?

A power outage also may have created a surge in the line as well, so it may not be unusual for it to lose the settings under such conditions. That is somewhat mentioned on page 86 of the manual, although they do not say specifically that a power surge will do that, they do say it may possibly lock up or "otherwise cause mis-operation". But as far as is it supposed to retain settings if left unplugged, yes it should as they also mention on the same page, that the 4806 has a "approximately" 1 week backup memory to store settings. So it should hold all your settings for at least a few days if unplugged normally and not due to a abnormal power outage/surge situation.

"I ran through the auto cal and then applied Audessy EQ and it seemed to produce the harshness..."

What is your listening distance to the mains?

"Have you found this approach still applies best or have you discovered anything different?"

Yep, this is very close to an typical THX scenario (only at 60Hz in my case). This will ensure that the LFE and mains will splice rather than overlap and sum...or in some cases, electrically cancel due to phase anomolies in the signal as can happen if large and LFE+Mains are chosen. But this is true for all controllers out there, not just the 4806. It is one of those peculiar issues of translation from one medium and environment to another. In a professional mix, the LFE works out to 120Hz...a decidedly bad thing in the home theater since the sub may well be in a location that would distract us from the screen. The main arrays in cinemas are full range, but they don't have small room acoustic low frequency modes to deal with so they can blast away. Problem they have though is the LF portion of each main tower falls off dramatically below 40Hz anyway. So, fortunately more is being mixed into the LFE instead of overdriving LF info into the mains. When we try to bring that mix into our different accoustic environment, a number of things get "changed" to try to make it work. Much of what was done to help this is in the design of Dolby Digital home decoders, the rest by THX. Of course, as more and more good re-mixes for the home are released, a new animal is created that is good, as long as it is reasonably faithful in spirit to the original. Now, if we can just get a flag to tell us a DVD has a re-mix. Or, like The Lion King, inform us and give us a choice of it or the theatrical mix.

Cam Man -

Listening distance to mains is 15 feet at about 30 degrees off axis.

I'm finally starting to understand these concepts more intimately - thanks for your detailed responses and deep insight.

So, I manually set mains, center, and surrounds to small, made sure Sub setting was at LFE/THX. When I went into Crossover Settings, I found:

Mains - 40Hz
Center - 40Hz
Surrounds - 60 Hz
Sub/LFE - 80 Hz

This makes some sense to me since my mains and center can go deeper than my surrounds (is Audyssey really that sensitive/smart?), but it seems that with the 80Hz Sub setting that there is definitely going to be overlap. I do, however, recall you saying that these don't actually behave like crossover frequencies? I still do not understand this - I will look for that comment in the thread and read it again . . .

I did manage to hookup one HDMI and a DVI device and use the switching. It all went well, but I do have a couple of questions:

2) When I change the volume on the 4806 it does not show up on the screen if the device (or function as it is called in the manual) is connected via component or HDMI. Only devices connected through Composite and S-VHS show up. Isn't that a bug?

My 4806 is connected to a Panny ae700 projo via HDMI. I was puzzled by the lack of GUI display via the HDMI until I read the 4806 manual (what, me?). When activated, the OSD is output at 480i (only) via all of the video outputs on the 4806. This can cause a switching delay in the video if you are watching anything with a rez above 480i and activate the OSD. And the OSD will only appear superimposed on a program if it is 480i. So if you are watching a DVD at 480p or above, the screen will switch from the program to the OSD (bummer). In my case, the ae700's HDMI input will NOT accept a 480i rez at all, only 480p an up. So when I activated the OSD, my Panny went completely blank. I have since run addtional S-Video cables from my video sources to the 4806 and then to the Panny so that when I am watching standard TV (480i), I can use the OSD. If I want to see the OSD while watching a DVD or HDTV, then I have to switch both the 4806's and the Panny's inputs to S-Video. Since the 4806 has so many video inputs, I run the S-Video out of the DVD to (say) the 4806's VCR-2 S-Video input. That way, I can simply switch the input device rather than go into the menu and change the conversion settings. I rename the VCR-2 device to "DVD OSD"

i'm in heated debate with myself now, 5805 or 4806?
i have two subs co-located in a corner. they are both connected to my BK ref.50 one sub out through a Y connector. my question right now is how are two subs handled by the 4806 and its EQ software? would my setup be perfect or would it cause issues with the EQ software. i know the 5805 has more than one subout.

thanks

i'm in heated debate with myself now, 5805 or 4806?
i have two subs co-located in a corner. they are both connected to my BK ref.50 one sub out through a Y connector. my question right now is how are two subs handled by the 4806 and its EQ software? would my setup be perfect or would it cause issues with the EQ software. i know the 5805 has more than one subout.

thanks
I tried a "Y" cable on the 4806 with two subs and the results were not good. There has been some discussion about using more than one sub but I temporarily gave up on it because one sub is enough for my room.

i have two subs co-located in a corner. The two subs should act as one big one. No need to adjust them separately. You only need the more advanced sub management of the 5805 if you have the subs spread around the room.

"You only need the more advanced sub management of the 5805 if you have the subs spread around the room."

This is correct . If your subs are not co-located you would be wise to go with the 5805. There is a way to do it with the 4806, but it requires more $ for a device to delay one sub and match their gains.

My 4806 is connected to a Panny ae700 projo via HDMI. I was puzzled by the lack of GUI display via the HDMI until I read the 4806 manual (what, me?). When activated, the OSD is output at 480i (only) via all of the video outputs on the 4806. This can cause a switching delay in the video if you are watching anything with a rez above 480i and activate the OSD. And the OSD will only appear superimposed on a program if it is 480i. So if you are watching a DVD at 480p or above, the screen will switch from the program to the OSD (bummer). In my case, the ae700's HDMI input will NOT accept a 480i rez at all, only 480p an up. So when I activated the OSD, my Panny went completely blank. I have since run addtional S-Video cables from my video sources to the 4806 and then to the Panny so that when I am watching standard TV (480i), I can use the OSD. If I want to see the OSD while watching a DVD or HDTV, then I have to switch both the 4806's and the Panny's inputs to S-Video. Since the 4806 has so many video inputs, I run the S-Video out of the DVD to (say) the 4806's VCR-2 S-Video input. That way, I can simply switch the input device rather than go into the menu and change the conversion settings. I rename the VCR-2 device to "DVD OSD"
I'm luckier because my projector does accept 480i through HDMI, so I can see the Setup menu and the OSD (not superimposed on the image) but the volume change never shows up which is not good because when the projector is on, the receiver is behind the screen so I cannot read the receiver display at all.

When I apply a room EQ other than "OFF", the receiver stops sending a signal to my sub (or at least it gets really faint). I've tried different sources but it's not source related. The sub is working fine - it works when EQ set to OFF as mentioned above, and it works fine in auto cal. I have a party on Friday and I'm getting desperate.

I'm thinking I should reinitialize the whole receiver, but I can't figure that out either.

Thanks in advance.

Does the system show still show you have a sub? Have you just tried a new auto cal? That is what I would do first so that it has to go through a speaker detect. Let us know how that goes.

Yes, auto cal runs through fine, sub sounds normal during auto cal. Detects sub no problem.

Now there's zero signal to the sub in any EQ mode.

OK, so I go examine the channel levels after my last auto cal. The sub is at -12dB while everything else is jacked up around +5dB!

Also, I found that when manually setting the speakers to small (after auto cal sets everything to large), the crossovers do work as they're supposed to. I set all my speakers at 80Hz with the Sub at 80Hz and that helped as well. I was confused from an earlier post that said that these settings didn't matter?

So, the panic has subsided. Not sure what has changed since the first couple auto cals I did which produced satisfactory results.

Needless to say, I'm not currently impressed with the consistency of auto cal, except for speaker delay/distances (these are right on). Maybe I'm doing something wrong - I guess it's time to read through the manual. :cool:

I'm having fun playing, except when I thought my Velodyne crapped out !:eek:

OK, so I go examine the channel levels after my last auto cal. The sub is at -12dB while everything else is jacked up around +5dB!

Also, I found that when manually setting the speakers to small (after auto cal sets everything to large), the crossovers do work as they're supposed to. I set all my speakers at 80Hz with the Sub at 80Hz and that helped as well. I was confused from an earlier post that said that these settings didn't matter?

So, the panic has subsided. Not sure what has changed since the first couple auto cals I did which produced satisfactory results.

Needless to say, I'm not currently impressed with the consistency of auto cal, except for speaker delay/distances (these are right on). Maybe I'm doing something wrong - I guess it's time to read through the manual. :cool:

I'm having fun playing, except when I thought my Velodyne crapped out !:eek:
Mine is also at -12db and that maybe correct. One of the main things the EQ does is get the bass right (not muddy) although some folks do like their subs shaking walls and windows :)
Read some of my posts about placing the microphone at the right place.
Take care.

Minus 12 dB is a huge correction! I would suspect that your subs-related to seating position(s) are creating a significant acoustic problem for MultEQ to try to solve. Of course, there may be something wrong with the receiver.

That sounds like a question for Chris at Audyssey. See if you can find him here on the forum and get him in on it. I would like to hear how this gets resolved.

Qwerty, check your pm.

I think all of us Denon/Audyssey owners need to verify what Audyssey is doing by using an external source, such as AVIA, etc....
I'm not saying Audyssey isn't doing it right, but a second opinion would bring some peace of mind!

dc

Certainly a good idea, but not easy to do accurately. I have looked at my room using a Senccore SP295 RTA. What I cannot see with that device is time domain analysis. Another thing I have yet to do is verify what the receiver is doing in some different configurations (LFE/THX, LFE+Main, crossver slopes, LPF slopes, etc) via electrical measurement with the RTA. I would like to know what is being sent out of those preamp outs.

Minus 12 dB is a huge correction! I would suspect that your subs-related to seating position(s) are creating a significant acoustic problem for MultEQ to try to solve. Of course, there may be something wrong with the receiver.

That sounds like a question for Chris at Audyssey. See if you can find him here on the forum and get him in on it. I would like to hear how this gets resolved.

Qwerty, check your pm.
I have used the Pioneer MCACC in the past and the result as far as sub is concerned was the same. In my case I have 4 full-speakers and the sub is quite powerful (goes up to 850W) so it maybe taming it down. The sub in question is from Infinity, so it has their bass-correction procedure which I have not tried yet but will to see whether it improves anything. The sub is in the left-hand corner and this is a heavy puppy to move around (more than 60 pounds) plus I have to keep it away from the kids :(
Bottom line it has to stay where it is. I'll try the Infinity Rabos this weekend and will see (it makes you plot the lines and all).

"In my case I have 4 full-speakers and the sub is quite powerful (goes up to 850W)..."

It might be diffucult to tell, but might you be exacerbating the low frequency response issues (if there are any) running full range on the "full-speakers" and a powerful sub? It is possible that you are summing a lot of bass to a level that is not faithful to the mix. MultEQ may be having to deal with that.

RABOS is an excellent feature; a little time consuming, but effective. I have helped several friends use this feature when they upgraded their system. I have yet to use a sub with RABOS and MultEQxt. I will be doing so soon to help a friend. I was up in the air on how to handle that. I think I will first do a mode calc and see if it predicts any problems, RTA measure the sub response in the room before any calibration, then give MultEQxt a chance...then measure again and listen. If I were to use the RABOS with MultEQxt, I would do the RABOS calibration first, then MultEQxt auto cal (or re-cal).

"In my case I have 4 full-speakers and the sub is quite powerful (goes up to 850W)..."

It might be diffucult to tell, but might you be exacerbating the low frequency response issues (if there are any) running full range on the "full-speakers" and a powerful sub? It is possible that you are summing a lot of bass to a level that is not faithful to the mix. MultEQ may be having to deal with that.

RABOS is an excellent feature; a little time consuming, but effective. I have helped several friends use this feature when they upgraded their system. I have yet to use a sub with RABOS and MultEQxt. I will be doing so soon to help a friend. I was up in the air on how to handle that. I think I will first do a mode calc and see if it predicts any problems, RTA measure the sub response in the room before any calibration, then give MultEQxt a chance...then measure again and listen. If I were to use the RABOS with MultEQxt, I would do the RABOS calibration first, then MultEQxt auto cal (or re-cal).
Maybe but unlikely. Running the speakers as Small and crossing over to the sub gives (at least in my case) very poor results. I just watched a movie today and it was fine the sub kicked in when it should. The RABOS instructions says to "0" the level and then run it (I can turn EQ off). A valid test is to go through the RABOS setup without EQ and with EQ to see the difference. In the audioholics review of the 5805 they did find out the sub wasn't being corrected as it should and Denon would provide a fix.

"Maybe but unlikely."

And you probably won't know for sure unless you get hold of an RTA and measure everything. Find out what is coming out of the pre-outs for the mains and for the sub, measure acoustically the sub alone with no RABOS or EQ, do the same for the mains without the sub, then do the calibrations and measure again. I know, it's a bit of hipocracy, as I have not measured those pre-outs yet. Maybe tomorrow. I'll post when accomplished.

Mine is also at -12db and that maybe correct. One of the main things the EQ does is get the bass right (not muddy) although some folks do like their subs shaking walls and windows :)
Read some of my posts about placing the microphone at the right place.
Take care.

Ditto here on the -12db sub setting. I'm becoming a bit suspicious regarding this trend.

The update set my sub at +1.5db.

Minus 12 dB is a huge correction! I would suspect that your subs-related to seating position(s) are creating a significant acoustic problem for MultEQ to try to solve. Of course, there may be something wrong with the receiver.



Or the actual volume on the subwoofer itself is set too high and the Denon is having to correct for this.

The update set my sub at +1.5db.
What update???

Or the actual volume on the subwoofer itself is set too high and the Denon is having to correct for this.
Actually Pioneer MCACC recommends setting the sub to the highest volume, I assumed Denon Audyssey would do the same. Plus I do not think it makes much of a difference where the volume is trimmed (or does it?)

Actually Pioneer MCACC recommends setting the sub to the highest volume, I assumed Denon Audyssey would do the same. Plus I do not think it makes much of a difference where the volume is trimmed (or does it?)

Hmmm, dunno. I have my volume on the sub set high. Maybe that's why the -12db?

I'd turn the volume on your subs down chaps. Having them set high only means that the amp has to compensate and turn the SW channel level down to be able to balance the channels. Try the sub volume at around a third or halfway. :)

-12db is the lowest the SW channel can be turned down to before being switched off completely. If your Sub volume is too high you might have a case where the amp can't actually lower it as much as it needs to. Even set to -12db might not be low enough.

I was unable to electrically measure the pre-outs with my RTA. I will get a friend who has one that will do this, and has a 4806, do it for us.

This discussion of sub volume settings is interesting. What subs are you guys using?

This sounds like a gain structure issue. If you have had a THX certified sub, you have noticed that there is a THX position, and non-THX position. The THX position is volume full up, no filtering; the task is left to the controller/receiver to provide the filtering and gain setting. A benefit of THX that is not widely discussed is the designed gain structure. Starting back in the decoder on your receiver/controller's chip, and proceeding through to the speakers, THX certified products follow a specific gain structure so that a predictable (and target) reference SPL at the listening location will be achievable.

I wonder if the sensitivity of your subs (presumably non-THX) is such that full up on their volume puts the sub in the "odd man out" position of being too much for the receiver to handle. Either way, as Jase suggests, turn it down using incremental steps and try it out.

I'm using two Klipsch Ultra2 subs in acoustically nominal positions at a distance of about 6 feet, and the sub level lands at +1.5dB after auto cal.

I was unable to electrically measure the pre-outs with my RTA. I will get a friend who has one that will do this, and has a 4806, do it for us.

This discussion of sub volume settings is interesting. What subs are you guys using?


Mine is the Infinity INTERMEZZO 1.2S - 12" 850-Watt (RMS). I'll try the Rabos tomorrow, it does help set up the subwoofer volume.

The update set my sub at +1.5db.
what update?

Hmmm, dunno. I have my volume on the sub set high. Maybe that's why the -12db?

I have an SVS PC Ultra set at about 1/3rd volume, and the autosetup set it at - 3db, and it certainly doesn't sound base challenged. The huge bolders landing in ROTK shake the floor joists pretty well.

Allen

I have the 4806 and have a SD-5970 DVD and HDTivo attached via HDMI and they just don't work very well. I also notice my MULTI indicator is on the 4806, I'm not using any other zones but I can't see how to turn this off or even if this is an issue or not.

When watching a DTS movie, if I skip chapters I lose the sound and have to hit source on the 4806 to get it back. Does anyone else see this??

I'm using monster HDMI (1000 series) connections and a HDMI2DVI connection to an H79 projector.

Also is it just me or do HDMI connections not feel real snug?

Any advice would be great as I'm going nuts....

HS

I have the 4806 and have a SD-5970 DVD and HDTivo attached via HDMI and they just don't work very well. I also notice my MULTI indicator is on the 4806, I'm not using any other zones but I can't see how to turn this off or even if this is an issue or not.

When watching a DTS movie, if I skip chapters I lose the sound and have to hit source on the 4806 to get it back. Does anyone else see this??

I'm using monster HDMI (1000 series) connections and a HDMI2DVI connection to an H79 projector.

Also is it just me or do HDMI connections not feel real snug?

Any advice would be great as I'm going nuts....

HS
Read page 96 (of the manual). When you assign a Function (DVD, VDP, etc.) with an HDMI input, it will default to the audio coming from the HDMI connection. Since most likely neither your DVD or Tivo-HD pass DD/DTS audio through HDMI, you have to go page 89 and reassign the "Digital In" for the DVD and Tivo-HD; if you are using IEEE1394 with the DVD then you need to go to page 92 and reassing the IEEE1394 with a Function (DVD, VDP, etc.); in this case it would most likely be your DVD.
This explanation is on page 97: "With HDMI, the video and audio signals are transferred simultaneously. When HDMI is assigned to an input source, the digital audio input assignment switches to HDMI along with the video input. When this setting is made for input sources to which a digital audio input (DENON LINK, IEEE1394 etc.) is previously assigned, the digital audio assignment is set to HDMI.In this case, reassign the digital input using the procedure described at “Digital In Assign” ( page 89) and “IEEE1394 Assign” ( page 92)."

The image should show up regardless but you need to check whether the particular device you're connecting is compatible with an HDMI input resolution of 480i or 576i; otherwise you won't be able to see the Setup menu or the OSD display.

what update?

Sorry, I was referring to the 5805 update with the Audyssey fix. Supposedly this is going to trickle down to the 4806 as well.

Swatter, where did you access the 5805 upgrade?

Chris told me this week that he thought Denon had just released the 4806 upgrade...or that it was immanent.

Swatter, where did you access the 5805 upgrade?

Chris told me this week that he thought Denon had just released the 4806 upgrade...or that it was immanent.

Another user emailed me the beta he had received from Denon. My understanding is that the Audyssey fixes in the 5805 firmware would also be in the 4806 release that is forthcoming. I don't have any inside info on this, just what I've gleaned from the threads. The firmware upgrade now correctly sets my speaker size, crossovers and subwoofer. It made a noticeable improvement in the sound with the Audyssey EQ engaged. I don't have access to an RTA, but to my untrained ears It sounds like it's manging my sub correctly now. Bass is a lot less "boomy".

Sounds promising! Thanks.

" Bass is a lot less "boomy"."

So, only less boominess, but not completely free of it (same as my HK 635)?

Don't think I would want a system that was totaly free of base boominess. Some bass is boomy. What I want is one that is not overly boomy. Can't tell from Swatter911's post the degree of "boominess reduction". <g>

Allen

The whole "boomy" thing is very dependent on reverberant acoustic characteristics of the environment. Low reverb time typically results in "tight" bass, but usually giving the perception of less overall bass amplitude. Rooms with long decay times tend to stack up the reverberating bass creating the perception of lots of bass, but at the cost of "boominess." That is why Dr. Floyd Toole and others developed the low frequency response target curve in JBL Synthesis systems. The presumption was that nominally damped home theaters (those into which JBL Synthesis systems would be installed) would sound under-powered on bass. So, a curve that is about 6dB high at about 40 Hz and back to flat by about 90 Hz was developed. I've heard those systems several times, and I am always extremely impressed. That is not just attributable to good acoustics and frequency amplitude manipulation; the Synthesis digital EQ (SDEC-2500) also does significant time domain analysis and correction, somewhat similar to MultEQ. How similar, and exactly what the Audyssey target curve looks like, we are still trying to determine, measuring in several rooms.

Don't think I would want a system that was totaly free of base boominess. Some bass is boomy. What I want is one that is not overly boomy. Can't tell from Swatter911's post the degree of "boominess reduction". <g>

Allen

I was unable to quantify the reduction in "boominess". I must rely on the subjective terms of sounding more natural and a soundstage that I find harder to localize after the upgrade. To sum it up, it sounds better to me. :)

I was unable to quantify the reduction in "boominess". I must rely on the subjective terms of sounding more natural and a soundstage that I find harder to localize after the upgrade. To sum it up, it sounds better to me. :)

Never intended to critique your report. I think we understood what you meant, and am not sure "Boominess" is a precisely quantifiable characteristic.

Allen

The whole "boomy" thing is very dependent on reverberant acoustic characteristics of the environment. Low reverb time typically results in "tight" bass, but usually giving the perception of less overall bass amplitude. Rooms with long decay times tend to stack up the reverberating bass creating the perception of lots of bass, but at the cost of "boominess." That is why Dr. Floyd Toole and others developed the low frequency response target curve in JBL Synthesis systems. The presumption was that nominally damped home theaters (those into which JBL Synthesis systems would be installed) would sound under-powered on bass. So, a curve that is about 6dB high at about 40 Hz and back to flat by about 90 Hz was developed. I've heard those systems several times, and I am always extremely impressed. That is not just attributable to good acoustics and frequency amplitude manipulation; the Synthesis digital EQ (SDEC-2500) also does significant time domain analysis and correction, somewhat similar to MultEQ. How similar, and exactly what the Audyssey target curve looks like, we are still trying to determine, measuring in several rooms.

An excellent example of the difficulty in reaching the right balance is the difference between the sound of an explosion in real life, and what you typically hear when a recording of that explosion is heard.

When I was in the army I had the opportunity to hear many different sizes of explosions, from hand grenades to 8 inch artillery shells to 2000 lb bombs. In reality the sound is one of a very short but loud report, not unlike a firecracker, but much louder, and if large enough much more of a thud. Recordings of these events always make them have much more rumble to them. I suspect the microphone is overwhelmed by the pressure wave, or the playback equipment is.

When I finally got a good subwoofer I saw the difference when comparing the "BOOM" when a heavy object lands (the robots feet in "Sky Marshal") in a lesser sub, and the heavy thud that actually sounds like a heavy object hitting the ground on a better sub.

Allen

Allen,

That is a very interesting analogy. I have been fascinated by the same thing (although my comparisons were to the GAU-8 and MK-82s). Hollywood's version of "boom" is decidedly...well "Hollywood." I think movie sound designers do a better job at the "thud/boom" sound like that of a distant detonation than they do with nearby sounds. I just don't think we will ever have technology that will deliver a dynamic range that can live up to the kind of extremes you speak of, although we may get close. What is your impression of the realism of the sound in the gunfight in Open Range?

The frighteningly fascinating documentary Trininty and Beyond: The Atomic Bomb Movie has the audio of an actual Nevada Test Site nuke air burst detonation from like 5 miles. One might expect the Hollywood boom/rumble, but it was just a very loud bang.

Never intended to critique your report. I think we understood what you meant, and am not sure "Boominess" is a precisely quantifiable characteristic.

Allen

No offense taken, I was just trying to continue in the same tongue-in-cheek vein that we were referring to "boominess". Hell, we might even see the term "boominess" used in some upcoming review. We'll all be able to look back proudly and know that we were present at the birth of "boominess". :D

Allen,

What is your impression of the realism of the sound in the gunfight in Open Range?

The frighteningly fascinating documentary Trininty and Beyond: The Atomic Bomb Movie has the audio of an actual Nevada Test Site nuke air burst detonation from like 5 miles. One might expect the Hollywood boom/rumble, but it was just a very loud bang.

Haven't played that movie since I got my new sub, so I don't know. Sounds like a netflix add to the que for me.

One of the biggest disappointments I ever had was throwing a hand grenade. Sounded more like an M80 than the Hollywood noise that sounded like it could field strip a tank.

I've always wondered about the nuke sound. Couple of years ago I went diving at Bikini Atoll (Godzilla's home town). Learned a lot about the detonations, and dove on the wrecks sunk by the Baker blast. Was really cool.

Allen

If all of your speakers are set to small and the mains are crossed over at 40hz and everything is crossed over at 80hz, does it matter whether you choose LFE+THX or LFE+Main in the subwoofer setup? If so, which one should you choose?

Thanks

"If all of your speakers are set to small and the mains are crossed over at 40hz and everything is crossed over at 80hz,"

How do you do that? Maybe re-state your scenario?

Here is an update that may interest you all. Here is what we are finding when measuring electrically and acoustically:

One note to begin. Despite Large being selected, MultEQ does an evaluation of the low frequency performance of the speakers set to large, and selects a safe roll off frequency. Not sure how it does it. It may make a distortion evaluation.

If MultEQ or you have selected Large for your mains (let's leave the surrounds out of this discussion), and you select LFE/THX for subwoofer settings, there will only be output from the sub if there is LFE track information. There is no "crossover," only a low pass filter. On the crossover page, you will be able to adjust the low pass filter of the LFE between 80 Hz and 120 Hz. The output from the main outs is 20 to 20K if EQ is off. When EQ is on, a safe roll off is selected for your "Large" speakers.

If you have Large selected for your mains, and you select LFE+Main for the sub, you now have a "crossover" option for each main, which is actually a low pass filter. The sub will be outputting the LFE track and the low passed mains info based on your selected frequency for each main channel. On the crossover page, you will be able to adjust the low pass filter of the LFE track between 80 Hz and 120 Hz (this has nothing to do with the duplicated info from the mains. The output from the main outs is 20 to 20K if EQ is off. When EQ is on, a safe roll off is selected for your "Large" speakers.

A problem with selecting the latter set-up is that you will be duplicating, summing, or maybe cancelling information that is output from your mains and your sub. Not a good choice for providing accurate reproduction of multichannel soundtracks.

The next scenario gives the most flexibility, management, and most faithful reproduction. If MultEQ has selected Large for you and you know the -3dB point of your mains (let's say it's 60Hz), you can change the speaker setting to Small. This will turn the Audyssey light to red, but don't worry about that. Now in Small you will have the option to select a crossover for each main. If you choose 60Hz here, you will be setting a true crossover (sending a low passed signal to the sub, but not duplicating it in the mains). If you select LFE/THX for the sub, your sub will output a low passed signal from the mains that will not have summing or interference from anything from the main channels; the mains and sub will be "spliced" at 60 Hz. The LFE will output any LFE info up to the frequency you choose for it on the crossover page (more on that below). EQ off, the main channels output will be flat from 60 Hz to 20KHz.

Finally, regarding the frequency at which to set the frequency for the LFE, try 120Hz. The professional Dolby encoding uses the LFE up to 120 Hz, and cinema mixes particulary use this. Up until these newer receivers/controllers arrived with great bass management flexibility, the region between 80 Hz and 120 Hz was lost to us at home. After changing to the 4806, I noticed some changes that I believe are in this range. Check out the scene in the latest Top Gun release where Maverick and Goose are being told they are going to Top Gun, and listen to the drone of the ship enveloping you in the background of the mix. I don't remember that being so effective before. I wonder if it is LFE-only info added to the new dts 6.1 mix. See what you think.

Wow Cammy! That's good stuff!

How can I determine the correct roll-off frequency for my mains?

Finally, regarding the frequency at which to set the frequency for the LFE, try 120Hz. The professional Dolby encoding uses the LFE up to 120 Hz, and cinema mixes particulary use this. Up until these newer receivers/controllers arrived with great bass management flexibility, the region between 80 Hz and 120 Hz was lost to us at home. After changing to the 4806, I noticed some changes that I believe are in this range. Check out the scene in the latest Top Gun release where Maverick and Goose are being told they are going to Top Gun, and listen to the drone of the ship enveloping you in the background of the mix. I don't remember that being so effective before. I wonder if it is LFE-only info added to the new dts 6.1 mix. See what you think.
Cam Man,

Every receiver I've had in the past few years (Elite 55TXi/56TXi, HK AVR8000/7000) send LFE info to the sub independant of the crossover freq. setting. That cross-over setting is mainly for the standard bass freq. being sent to the LCR and Surround channels. I think the only real time LFE is sent to speakers other than the sub is with you have at least the mains set to "large" and the sub set to "off". Other than that the entire LFE signal is sent to the sub. If you set all your speakers to "large" and still have your sub set to "on" all of the LFE signal will still be sent to the sub channels. Depending on how the engineers mix the soundtrack some LFE may still go to the main speakers but most 5.1 mixes send the entire .1 (LFE) to the sub channel unless it is turned off and the manis are set to large. I heard of a couple AVRs a couple of years ago, that actually used the cross-over setting applied to the LFE signal, but I can't remember the models. To me that would really be an odd design. Makes more sense that the crossover should just effect standard bass freq.

I and others have verified this by running a test disk with LFE test sweeps (not just standard bass freq. but dedicated LFE signals) and unplugging the other speakers. One thing to note is that when you are crossing over at different freq. there can be cancelations that can easily change the output level at any given freq. Combine that with different sub and speaker locations and different rooms and the differences can be dramatic from system to system. And may be some of what you are experiencing with "Top Gun".

NOTE: The other time that the cross-over freq. does apply to bass being fed to the sub is when the "Mains + Sub" (or whatever your particular AVR calls it) With this setting your mains have to be set to "large" and then the sub will also be sent the standard bass that is being sent to the mains (that is all bass under whatever freq. you have chosen in your cross-over settings). But even in this setting, when listening to a 5.1 soundtrack all the LFE will also be sent to the sub.

Best Regards,
Patrick

You can go with your manufacturer's specs, or if you want to play it safe acoustically (more flexibility with low frequency acoustic response) go with 60 Hz (even though it is rated to let's say 45 Hz) and put your sub in as good a place acoustically as possible realtive to your listening location. MultEQ will do the rest.

Patrick,

The receivers you mention are of the fairly new generation to which I refer. I think you echoed everything I said in my post, except it sounds as if you thought I meant that sound from the LFE track was sent to the mains. Not true (in fact, never heard of that)...didn't mean that. But low frequency material from the main track mix is duplicated in the room by being played on the mains and through the sub(s), if LFE+Main is selected.

"I and others have verified this by running a test disk with LFE test sweeps (not just standard bass freq. but dedicated LFE signals) and unplugging the other speakers. "

That is sort of how we measure this. We use the PMI 5.1 Tool Kit to provide discrete channel wide band pink noise, then measure the output electrically with an RTA. Can't verify it any more accurately than that.

"One thing to note is that when you are crossing over at different freq. there can be cancelations that can easily change the output level at any given freq. "

And this can occur electrically as part of the signal when you are sending things to the sub from the mains that were not intended to be there. You can be sending things there that are no longer phase coherent.

Cam Man,

Gotcha, sorry I mis-understood. And as you can imagine I completely agree!
What AVR were you coming from that did not have this type of BM?

"And this can occur electrically as part of the signal when you are sending things to the sub from the mains that were not intended to be there. You can be sending things there that are no longer phase coherent.'

Very good point, I forgot to mention that. Does the 4806 have any type of phase control to address this? I hear the new Elite 74TXVi (though not in the same class as the 4806) has this function.

Best Regards,
Patrick

Coming most recently from Marantz 9200/9300.

"Very good point, I forgot to mention that. Does the 4806 have any type of phase control to address this?"

No...and considering it is entirely unpredictable and source-driven, it would be a fairly complex task to detect and correct. Best thing to do is avoid the possiblity (LFE+Main setting with large speakers), unless you have a cinema-sized room...but then you wouldn't need to pass off the mains to the sub. ;)

Jeez...I totally forgot to mention another surprise observation we have had on two 4806s. There are no frequency amplitude changes made by MultEQ to the low frequencies that we can see on an RTA...measured electrically at the sub output! We can hear the difference, but not verify the difference by that manner. It must totally happen in the time domain. Both systems finish with quite strong response (measured acoustically) in the 30s and low 20s. It looks kind of like room gain except that it rolls of in the low 20s, and it's definately not resonate peaks. It must be a MultEQ thing. Quite the mystery how it is done.

Nice to see some more activity on this thread. Here's an update since my last post:

After reading through my manual VERY CAREFULLY and recalibrating, I'm extremely pleased with the results of my 4806 and Audyssey/MEQ. Defnitely a significant sound quality upgrade from my old Denon 5400. Here's what I did to get the most favorable results so far (I've calibrated and experimented at least 10 times by now):

1) Make sure that your first calibration position is centered between your L/R speakers. My primary listening position in my room (in the corner of my L couch in the corner of my room) is not at all centered in this respect, so I made the mistake of putting the mic there initially. I know, sounds obvious not to do that, but in my case I thought I'd give it a try. Don't bother. I calibrated at 8 diferrent points somewhat equally spaced around the inital location, one of these being my "primary listening position" on the corner of my couch.

2) Switched my speakers to small and set crossovers at 80Hz everywhere with Sub set to LFE/THX. I'll try a 120Hz crossover at some point as Cam Man suggests to see how that sounds as well. Audyseey light turns red as Cam Man also mentions and it doesn't seem to be a problem at all.

3) Activate Audyssey EQ for all inputs/modes

4) Adjust subwoofer level by ear to what sounds good to me. I have an older 18" Velodyne sub, BTW (don't know the model # off the top of my head). When doing the AutoCal, I set my sub to half volume as instructed in the manual. The manual also mentioned something about it being common to have to adjust the sub level manually (sorry I don't have the manual in front of me - I'll find it tonight at home and post later).

The results having followed the above procedure are pretty astounding. I'll be looking for a firmware upgrade to see if I can improve on this.

Good job, Q man!

Directly under Step 5 on that page . . .

"Sometimes due to the electrical complexities of subwoofers and the interaction with the room, THX recommends setting the level and the distance of the subwoofer manually"

Some of us must have "electrically complex" subwoofers, myself included. ;)

Also good to note, just below:
"Please note that any THX main speakers should be set to Small (80 Hz). If you set up your speakers using Auto Setup, please make sure manually that any THX speakers are set to Small with 80Hz crossover."

Thanks for your help, Cam Man.

I apologize for not being clear in my post. What I meant to say is that all of my speakers are set to small with the following crossover points:

Mains - 40 Hz
Center - 80 Hz
Surrounds - 80 Hz
Rears - 80 Hz
Sub - 80 Hz

Based on your reply, I would assume that it is best to select LFE/THX in the subwoofer setup menu.

Thanks

Directly under Step 5 on that page . . .

"Sometimes due to the electrical complexities of subwoofers and the interaction with the room, THX recommends setting the level and the distance of the subwoofer manually"

Some of us must have "electrically complex" subwoofers, myself included. ;)

Also good to note, just below:
"Please note that any THX main speakers should be set to Small (80 Hz). If you set up your speakers using Auto Setup, please make sure manually that any THX speakers are set to Small with 80Hz crossover."

Thanks for your help, Cam Man.
THX main speakers .... not all of us have that :)
I interpreted this as if you have THX certified speakers the mais should be set to Small with a 80Hz crossover which is a correct statement.

BTW did you test the Senheiser ? Was the volume good enough ? For me it was not.

Let me preface this post by telling you I attended the THX training program a few years ago.

The 80 Hz crossover for THX certified speakers has been (was) the party line for a long time because THX required speakers to be designed this way when the program was created. The reason it landed at 80 Hz is because it was the best early attempt at bass management that existed. Bass management just wasn't done yet in controllers. The other reason is because it was easy to execute. They realize that not all folks are as diligent about the set-up of their systems as all of us here (not to mention Joe Bagadonuts installer who doesn't want to spend a lot of time in your house). It is pretty complicated to properly set-up systems and bass management these days. They want to make it as easy as possible to get it "right." Of late, we are being allowed more control when we use THX certified products. We are no longer "locked" into 80 Hz. As long as we have a speaker that is 3dB down below 80 Hz, that is a good thing.

Although a perfectly acceptable default for a speaker (THX or otherwise) if like most THX speakers, it is down 3dB at 80 Hz, the rule regarding THX speakers to be down 3dB at 80 Hz is no longer required, and we have much better bass management capabilities within our controllers/receivers. Case in point: Klipsch THX Ultra2 certified KL-650-THX LCRs are down 3dB at 60 Hz or lower. There is no necessity for you to use 80 Hz with that speaker. Exactly why the sort of "under the table handshake" exists between manufacturers and THX about 80 Hz, I can't explain. I suspect THX is just afraid that folks will plummer it, making it sound terrible trying to R&D some new set-up protocol that sounds good to them. Remember THX has a worthy mandate of delivering a means of faithfully reproducing soundtracks that translate from the very different professional environment to that in the home. THX wants a default position that will definitely be very good and honor this commitment at a minimum.

In the mean time, we are learning how to improve the outcome even more with the capabilities in the new products. My goal is, like THX, to get it to be faithful , because that way it will be so for movies, which (in DD or dts) will also then be faithful to a home theater re-mix or TV mix as well. I won't have to re-invent some new set-up for them.

Thanks you guys. This the most informative thread of all!

I can't wait to implement your suggestions as soon as I get the opportunity.

Thanks again!

Rick

Nope, I don't have THX certified speakers, but that wasn't my interpretation of what the manual was saying. It was more along the lines of what Cam Man discusses, i.e. if you want to adhere to THX guidelines, use the 80Hz crossover. (I completely understand that a system without THX certified speakers isn't THX certified, though).

To me, all that matters in the end is maximizing my enjoyment of my system. If 120Hz crossover sounds better to me due to my ears and combination of speakers and sub, I'll end up sticking with that. I do, however, believe that it is important to avoid frequency reproduction amongst your speakers. When I was heavily into car audio (which, as far as I know, has been dealing with crossover/bass management in the mainstream for much longer than home audio), the best sounding results to me were always acheived with "proper" non-overlapping crossover setup using separates. It wasn't until home theater/subwoofers became popular in home audio that we had to start learning about and dealing with these issues.

Sergiohm - Thanks for the reminder - I haven't tested my Senheisers yet. I was too busy getting my 4806 dialed in :D . I'll do it tonight and post.

exactly what the Audyssey target curve looks like, we are still trying to determine, measuring in several rooms. Cam Man, have you verified that the 4806 is correcting the low bass? In the 5805 thread, some people measured and found no correction down low until they applied the beta firmware patch that's floating around. I'm wondering if Denon got it right the first time with the 4806 or if it will need a patch too?

Cam Man, have you verified that the 4806 is correcting the low bass? In the 5805 thread, some people measured and found no correction down low until they applied the beta firmware patch that's floating around. I'm wondering if Denon got it right the first time with the 4806 or if it will need a patch too?

That is an excellent question...for which I wish I had a definitive answer. I and another colleague are separately measuring/evaluating two 4806s, and comparing our findings. I also am on good terms with Chris K. at Audyssey, and have reasonable contacts within Denon with whom I am bouncing questions. As you saw in my post yesterday, we don't see any low bass frequency amplitude changes between EQ off and EQ on. It sounds great and measures very good, but we are not sure that is not due to good positioning/acoustics. We aren't 100% sure the performance is due to MultEQ since we have yet to find a way to objectively verify it.

Rather than pontificate as a false know-it-all, let me say that I have not had access to a unit (5805 or 4806) with the beta upgrade for comparison, but I am all over diplomatically working my contacts at Audyssey and Denon to get the upgrade as soon as possible. Audyssey says they are ready. One of my contacts within Denon told me this week that the upgrade is not ready on their side. He did not give an ETA.

When the upgrade is installed, my colleague and I will both jump on a re-evaluation and pass on the findings.

Having read all these posts on the AVR-4806, I'm very confused. Being somewhere between "Joe Six Pack" and "Audiophile Aspirant," that's not surprising.

What's the overall consensus on the AVR-4806? Winner or loser?


(I currently have a Denon AVR-5700 that I'd like to replace. I have all (5) Joseph Audio RM7si Signature MK2's with a Velodyne sub. A local dealer said, when the Denon AVR-5803 was the top of the line, that I might be better off with the Arcam AVR300 with the Josephs. I'm looking for a slightly warmer, musical sound than the 5700 in a room that could definitely benefit from something the Audyessy. Before I audition and try to test at home, I'm just wondering if the 4806 should be on my short list.)

TIA.

Definite winner. Because I have such an acoustically-challenged listening room, the MultiEQ/Audyssey feature was very attractive to me, and it has made a very noticeable improvement.

I just upgraded from a 5700 myself. I'm redeploying the 5700 in my music/recording room, which made the decision to upgrade easier.

What's the overall consensus on the AVR-4806? Winner or loser?


TIA.

In this particular thread the overall consensus if winner. Yes it should be on your short list.

Having read all these posts on the AVR-4806, I'm very confused. Being somewhere between "Joe Six Pack" and "Audiophile Aspirant," that's not surprising.

What's the overall consensus on the AVR-4806? Winner or loser?
TIA.
Winner. It is not a "Joe Six Pack" by any means (it is not cheap at all for a receiver). What do you mean by "Audiophile Aspirant" ? There is a pre-conception among audiophiles that receivers do not sound good, that may have been true a couple of years ago but not today. What "scares" most audiophiles is multi-channel because if you have say Wilson Maxx 2, to have 5 or 7 of these puppies you need big money, big room and it will most likely not sound good because the Maxx 2 was designed for stereo listening primarily. Can the 4806 drive Maxx 2? Yes. It will do a better job than a Krell or Mark Levinson ? Most likely not, because again that is not the intent. Provided you have speakers with easier loads (and these speakers do not have to be Small at all) you can certainly achieve the "same results" that you would with a Maxx2-Mark Levinson.
Now getting back on track I think it is a Winner, the room correction is excellent, it really brings up the details both when listening to music (even in stereo mode) and when listening to movies. Depending on the speakers and sources you have to listen to stereo, I think direct mode is better (not using the EQ).
Take care ;)

sergiohm -

Just tested my Senheiser 600's. They sounded good to me. I tested them in Pure, Direct, and Dolby Headphone mode. -10dB is about the loudest I could handle.

I am thinking about getting a Denon 4806 if I can get it at a good price. Right now all I have seen are prices at $3500. Can anyone PM me and recommend a dealer that has it at a good price that will ship it to me?

I am thinking about getting a Denon 4806 if I can get it at a good price. Right now all I have seen are prices at $3500. Can anyone PM me and recommend a dealer that has it at a good price that will ship it to me?

Check Denon's website for authorized retailers/e-tailers. From a pricing standpoint 10%-15% off the $3500 msrp is a good price.

Not many authorized retailers are going to ship one to you. There are a lot of authorized dealers in OH with three in Columbus. Take advantage of them and shop around.

I thought I would share my experience with the 4806. I received my first 4806 back in early July. It has some shipping damage but I set it up anyways so that I could do some testing until the replacement unit arrived. My current setup consists of a Pioneer 5050HD Plasma connected via HDMI, an older sony 5 disc DVD changer connected via component and digital coax, a D* HD Tivo connected via HDMI and optical, a Control4 Media Controller connected via component and optical, 7 in-ceiling Triad speakers (Bronze LCR up front and Silver surrounds), and a cinova dual 10 in sub located in a built-in cabinet.

With the first 4806 I did the auto set-up by sitting in a central position in the room and pointing the mic at each in-ceiling speaker. I only performed the eq setup for 3 positions. The results were fantastic. Dialog and imaging were much, much better and the sound seemed more detailed and full. I only had this unit for several days before it had to be sent back. Distances were spot on, level correction was no more that +/- 1db for each speaker, sub was -3.5. The eq on each speaker was fairly flat with no more that 3 db of correction on each plot for each speaker. Average noise levels in the house during setup.

Second 4806 arrived. By now I have been doing research on-line about proper setup and have also read the manual. This time I use the same primary position but have the mic pointed straight up during the calibration and eq 8 different locations in the room. Sound seems harsh and bright. Crossover points are higher by at least 10 on all speakers. Level correction as much as 6 db on some channels, -12 db on the sub. Eq graphs look like 1/2 of a large mountain. Lower octaves cut and upper freq. boosted by as much as 6 db on all channels. House was dead quiet during this calibration. I tried re-setup the system several times with the same or similar results, but always pointing the mic straight up in the air at ear level.

Tonight or tomorrow I plan on re-doing the setup, this time pointing the mic directly at each speaker during setup. I will post results. If the results are the same it might be a bad mic. but it would be interesting if the sound improves by pointing the mic at each speaker.

There are others here who have had the same experience with harshenss and have experimented with mic aiming. One common thread amongst those with this problem seems to be distance; the farther the distance, the worse the problem. This is a factor of room acoustics and speaker design. If you have speakers that are highly dispersive (rather than directive) and your room is quite reverberant, then listening critical distance (roughly where room return equals sound direct from the speaker) will occur at a closer distance. It appears that MultEQ has a tougher time with this...and I am not surprised. It is a poor design choice. MultEQ is going to do best when you give it a good chance. The more reverberant your room is, the more important it is to use speakers that are highly directive...regardless of what receiver and calibration process you are using.

Audyssey recognizes the mic/harshness problem and the upcoming firmware upgrade fixes this and makes other significant improvements. Denon is not yet ready on their end to release the upgrade. Aiming the mic might get you by until the upgrade.

Ouch - NO Denon warranty from etronics.com

Let's keep pricing talk out of this thread. It has been very informative and helpful so far. The 4806 is available from online authorized dealers at MSRP, from online grey market no warranty dealers for less, and from authorized B&M dealers. It is not difficult to obtain a good discount from an authorized B&M dealer. Let's leave pricing talk at this. Please start a new thread otherwise to discuss purchasing.

I got my 4806 from etronics.com ****** no tax, no shipping. I've used them for years and have never had problems.

Will you be able to upgrade it when new firmware comes out?

I hope so. I just upgraded my Denon 2910 DVD player - all it asked for on their web site was the serial #.

Yep, I took (am taking) a risk! However, I've never had a solid state receiver croak on me. They usually either show up DOA or they fail within the first few months.

Okay guys, I learned a bit today about the firmware versions. You can check your firmware version by turning off the unit via the power switch (not the standby power switch); while off, push the Status and Room EQ buttons while turning the power switch back on. Then repeatedly push the status button until you see DSP3. Does anyone have anything different from "ver21.16" ?