That looks about the same as mine.

I think I've gotten the best quality VGA source picture possible on my 6168. To achieve 1:1 pixel mapping, enable pc wide and simply adjust the zoom under picture > size, so that the image is expanded as far as possible. The tv will not be scaling the image any at this point (assuming you're providing it a native 1920x1080 res). The only problem is, you'll be receiving a good bit of overscan. Using the latest nVidia drivers with an old Geforce FX 5200 (soon to be replaced with a 7800 GT :D), I played around with advanced timings until I got something that looked good. Here's what my resolution's currently set to:

1840x1024 with a HFP=80, HBP=120, VFP=31, VBP=51

Those porch numbers may not be entirely accurate, due to a bug with nVidia's drivers not refreshing those numbers correctly ... However, it should provide a nice starting point. I'd be interested in hearing any feedback / profiles you all stumble upon.



Did you get the 1:1 pixel mapping without overscan with above setting?
Do you have any picture of the screen?
I can't wait to see your result with powerstrip.
Please keep us posted.

Thanks!

I have a DishNetwork 921 HD PVR with a DVI cable connected to HDMI on HDMI1. I have sound via optical imput into my A/V Reciever.I do the same thing with Comcast cable and a HLP set. I haven't had any significant problems but of course it's 720p and not 1080p. :o

I use a HTPC for all of my DVR/DVD needs. With it hooked up to the VGA port, I have never noticed any lip-sync issues (that were not in the source). This makes sense, since the PC is doing all the scaling, and takes care of sending the audio out in sync with the video.

I have also never seen any macroblocking watching any DVD. Including Star Wars II. Image quality is phenomenal!

Setting up a HTPC can be a lot of work. It can also cost a fair amount. At this point I would not want to do it any other way. I highly recommend using a HTPC to drive these TVs. Well worth the cost. Well worth the time.

John

I hear that!

After two months of anguishing over whether I should buy a 50" plasma or the 6168 Sammy, I went with the Sammy. It arrives this Thursday. My intention is go 100% HTPC. I am relieved to hear that another 1080p Sammy owner has done this and is having good results.

Can you elaborate a bit more on your specific set up? Any tips for another Sammy owner who will be building an HTPC from scratch just for this TV?

I am currently running my home workstation on double duty as a part time media center. But I don't want to drag it into the living room, so I am thinking of building a HTPC from a shuttle box and using Snapstream or Meedio instead of Windows Media center.

(p.s. have you tried WinDVD 7.0 with it's Trimension DNM filter yet? I have never seen a DVD look so good before in my life. It is astounding! I can't wait to see it on the 6168!!!)

I've searched around for info on DLP pincushion in general. I'm wondering how the pincushion on my 6168 compares with others. Mine's noticeable in 16:9 menus (e.g. TV Guide), tables like sports stats or similar blocks or grids in regular programming, and any 4:3 content which obviously exposes lines on the sides, making the bowing readily visible. Most 16:9 content doesn't expose it, unless someone's standing next to a door in a closeup or something. Or maybe a head-on architectural shot.

Anyway, here's a few snapshots of my set with some 16:9 and 4:3 content onscreen, for comparison. The lens used has no distortion at the focal lengths used, so the bowing of the geometry is pretty accurate to what I see in person. These shots are only meant to show pincushion and are not accurate in color, exposure, or anything else.

http://jswham.home.comcast.net/16x9_Resolution1.jpg
http://jswham.home.comcast.net/16x9_Resolution2.jpg
http://jswham.home.comcast.net/16x9_Anamorphic_Geometry.jpg
http://jswham.home.comcast.net/16x9_Color_Bars.jpg
http://jswham.home.comcast.net/16x9_Percent_Overscan.jpg
http://jswham.home.comcast.net/16x9_TV_Guide.jpg
http://jswham.home.comcast.net/4x3_Cable1.jpg
http://jswham.home.comcast.net/4x3_Cable2.jpg

Within the Service Menu if you go into vertical alignment option a red box appears around the entire screen. you can move it up and down. That really shows the pincushioning. I have a little of that I think. I am having another problem and I have called for service.

Did you get the 1:1 pixel mapping without overscan with above setting?
Do you have any picture of the screen?
I can't wait to see your result with powerstrip.
Please keep us posted.

Thanks!

i'll try to take a few pics of the screen tonight with my roommate's camera. i am getting 1:1 pixel mapping with perfectly clear text, etc. i'm actually getting a few pixels underscan (less than 5 or so) on the top, but nothing worth overcompensating for. horizontal is about as close to perfect as i can tell. we're building the new HTPC this week, and i'll be switching over to powerstrip. i'll be sure to post all my timings. =]

Ok, you can laugh with me, just not at me ... I'm clearly about to make my most bass-ackwards suggestion to date:

Is there a way ... :rolleyes: ... to trick the tv into thinking you're connecting a DVI device? Meaning, is there a way you can kill the audio signal in the HDMI cable through creative use of cabling and/or adapters? Run an HDMI cable from your HR10-250 into an HDMI>DVI adapter, then run a DVI>HDMI cable from the adapter into the tv.

I can't even begin to count the number of ways that suggestion sounds like a bad idea, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway. ;)

I almost posted this exact idea as a potential solution to AkaStp's HDMI problem but I got a phone call and lost the post. I think somehow it needs to be confirmed that the DVI analog input is really disabled first by using some other analog source that is known to work, then this option may work to enable the DVI analog in.

i'll try to take a few pics of the screen tonight with my roommate's camera. i am getting 1:1 pixel mapping with perfectly clear text, etc. i'm actually getting a few pixels underscan (less than 5 or so) on the top, but nothing worth overcompensating for. horizontal is about as close to perfect as i can tell. we're building the new HTPC this week, and i'll be switching over to powerstrip. i'll be sure to post all my timings. =]

Both NVidia and ATI drivers now have HTPC control to the point that some find powerstrip isn't needed anymore.

[QUOTE=draper]I've searched around for info on DLP pincushion in general. I'm wondering how the pincushion on my 6168 compares with others. [/QOUTE]

The first image actually looks more like trapezoid than pincusioning the text at the top and at the bottom seem to be getting clipped ever so slightly the farther to the right it goes. Pincussioning is where the center edges are either bulging out or in. The trapezoid looks like more of an alignment issue. It might be the light engine or the screen that is out of alignment.

You have to remember that these are projection units using soft plastic screens that may not be absolutely flat (not like the glass with lcd or plazma). To expect the image to be 100% abberation free is asking a little too much.

How is the built in lip synch test going :-)'Doh! I'll pay closer attention tonight ... got distracted. Thanks for reminding!

Both NVidia and ATI drivers now have HTPC control to the point that some find powerstrip isn't needed anymore.

i'm currently using the nvidia drivers ... but powerstrip allows for multiple profiles which are accessible via commandline parameters. so, i can setup scripts to enable specific timings for a particular game, execute the game, then enable my default timings ... making custom resolution control seemless to the end user.

I Pmed you for this information. Thanks!!!!!

Your TV will be fine on a UPS, lineconditioner, both, or just straight out of the wall... its about protection, the likelyhood of you being able to see or hear differences because of your powersupply (unless horrid) is unlikely. Get what you want... if you want the PureAV I know where you can get it pretty cheap online with good shipping rates.

Sorry to all for going off topic, please refer to the other surge thread. I'll let you know if belkin blows up my 5668 when it arrives tomorrow between 11 and 4!!!!

Changing gamma to zero "and" using the Digital Video Essentials disk will help some. One of the main benefits to having an ISF calibrator with Samsung experience and the right equipment work on your set is details in dark scenes.

Good luck.


Calibration by a so called ISF tech should not be necessary to fix this contrast problem. If its true that all sets exhibit this lack of detail in the blacks then Samsung needs to address these issues or pay for that ISF guy to fix it under warranty. Or better yet Samsung can pay my way to the CEDIA Advanced Display Calibration Seminar! $1000!

I have an 5668 and for some SD content the picture does not appear to fill the entire screen. I'm NOT talking about the black bars, what I am seeing is some "noise" at the very top edge of the screen, as if the picture isn't filling out the entire screen. It doesn't happen on every SD show, but often enough to be noticeable. Does this just mean that the screen dimensions need to be adjusted or is there something else that is wrong?

I finally got comcast to bring me a cable card and now I have a problem with the TV guide. Every 20 seconds or so, a screen flashes up saying " a technical problem is preventing you from recieving all your cable services. Please report error code 161-2 to your service provider." This message prevents me from accessing the menu. Any ideas? Thanx

Oh yeah, the cable guy came back and said he doesn't know what that code means, or how to stop it.

I see this also on SD content from time to time.

I have an 5668 and for some SD content the picture does not appear to fill the entire screen. I'm NOT talking about the black bars, what I am seeing is some "noise" at the very top edge of the screen, as if the picture isn't filling out the entire screen. It doesn't happen on every SD show, but often enough to be noticeable. Does this just mean that the screen dimensions need to be adjusted or is there something else that is wrong?

I have an 5668 and for some SD content the picture does not appear to fill the entire screen. I'm NOT talking about the black bars, what I am seeing is some "noise" at the very top edge of the screen, as if the picture isn't filling out the entire screen. It doesn't happen on every SD show, but often enough to be noticeable. Does this just mean that the screen dimensions need to be adjusted or is there something else that is wrong?

Not all video content fills all the video to the SD specified edges, that's actually most of the reason behind overscan.

Have you used DVE or Avia to perform an initial calibration of your TV. You may find that you're screen is shifted down a bit, when veiwing on the Overscan images. In the Service Menu you can adjust the positioning (On my HLP5674 it was one pixel per numeric value - it's been a while since I did it.)

Recentering it should help it to get rid of the top and bottom video edges when watching SD content. It will not do anything for side edges though, one of my local news channels consistently has a bad left edge. It's about 4 pixels, then a vertical black line, then the rest is fine.

I record most of my Analog SD shows on my HTPC (the SA8300HD DVR does a very bad job on Analog SD shows) and my HTPC is setup so that my Desktop is only 1177x668 of the 1280x720 signal I'm sending the TV via DVI thus it's centered and no overscan. When you watch TV content on this, you see the top bars move up and down between commericials and programming all of the time. That's because no overscan is being done, it's desplaying the full video frame in a smaller space then what the TV would have done.

CCourtney

Anyway, here's a few snapshots of my set with some 16:9 and 4:3 content onscreen, for comparison. The lens used has no distortion at the focal lengths used, so the bowing of the geometry is pretty accurate to what I see in person. These shots are only meant to show pincushion and are not accurate in color, exposure, or anything else.

http://jswham.home.comcast.net/16x9_Resolution1.jpg
http://jswham.home.comcast.net/16x9_Resolution2.jpg
http://jswham.home.comcast.net/16x9_Anamorphic_Geometry.jpg
http://jswham.home.comcast.net/16x9_Color_Bars.jpg
http://jswham.home.comcast.net/16x9_Percent_Overscan.jpg
http://jswham.home.comcast.net/16x9_TV_Guide.jpg
http://jswham.home.comcast.net/4x3_Cable1.jpg
http://jswham.home.comcast.net/4x3_Cable2.jpgMine looks very similar as far as degree of pincushioning goes, perhaps a smidge less. It's close enough that I don't even notice it anymore, even with 4:3 pillars. I don't believe I have any noticeable "off-center" trapezoidal distortion as jkaiser points out. My pincushioning is happily symmetrical, although it isn't exactly vertically centered yet.

I'm getting similar overscan numbers over HDMI@1080i: ~3% on the sides, ~3.5% on top and ~4.5% on the bottom. Happy with the side overscan, wish it weren't so strong on top and bottom. On the other hand, I've yet to see a single source over component or HDMI where any noticeable bottom material (tickers, etc.) was trimmed out of view.

Calibration by a so called ISF tech should not be necessary to fix this contrast problem. If its true that all sets exhibit this lack of detail in the blacks then Samsung needs to address these issues or pay for that ISF guy to fix it under warranty. Or better yet Samsung can pay my way to the CEDIA Advanced Display Calibration Seminar! $1000!I think it's quite likely that not all of these sets exhibit lack of detail in the blacks. Again, some of that may be due to slight differences in the mechanical attributes from set to set, some of it may be due to the shipping process knocking things around. Look at how many owners have mentioned different SM settings ...

While it can be frustrating to those of us not enthusiastic about spending more money on a calibration (I'm on the fence myself), I fully expect that each and every set will have its own "personality," if you will ... calibration would bring out the best in each one with unique tweaks.

In addition, I've personally noticed a significant improvement in shadow detail when playing DVDs on my 5078 by switching to what I feel is a higher quality player. So what I before was thinking of as a possible limitation of the tv has turned out for me to be a limitation of the source.

In addition, I've personally noticed a significant improvement in shadow detail when playing DVDs on my 5078 by switching to what I feel is a higher quality player. So what I before was thinking of as a possible limitation of the tv has turned out for me to be a limitation of the source.


Bingo! Shadow detail is the best I have seen on any RPTV.

I use a HTPC for all of my DVR/DVD needs. With it hooked up to the VGA port, I have never noticed any lip-sync issues (that were not in the source). This makes sense, since the PC is doing all the scaling, and takes care of sending the audio out in sync with the video.

I have also never seen any macroblocking watching any DVD. Including Star Wars II. Image quality is phenomenal!

Setting up a HTPC can be a lot of work. It can also cost a fair amount. At this point I would not want to do it any other way. I highly recommend using a HTPC to drive these TVs. Well worth the cost. Well worth the time.

John

John,

What audio card are you using? I'm currently using an Audigy 2 pro, and I'm unable to get a good digital out to my receiver. This is the last hurdle I have to get over.

Rick

Mike and Others: (not a dig comment)
My experience and others lately would disagree with the statement that the TV is not keeping the two signals in synch. I am not an expert on HDMI and there certainly may be no protocol for keeping audio and video in synch, but that does not preclude SS or any other manufacture from doing so with a proprietary scheme.

How else can you explain the scenario reported here by me and others where a feed from a DVD player via HDMI(video to TV and audio direct to AVR) has a synch delay but the same player outputting PCM via HDMI to the TV and then from the TV to the AVR has no synch delay? Since the paths are longer in the second scenario one would expect the delay here but in fact it is not there implying that somehow the TV is delaying its processing of the audio signal knowing its going to take x amount of time or some other algorithm to keep the two in synch.


Because internally the TV has the delays necessary to keep the audio and video in sync from input to output. They are a known value to the designers and can be compensated for. This is exactly what we have been saying, if it is in the TV all will be kept in sync. If the audio and video take different paths, there can be sync issues and if any siginificantly different processing takes place, there almost certainly will be differences in the timing, the only question is how much. Pure path length will not be visible unless it is very big ( approximately one nanosecond for each .33 meter).

Well after hooking up my Samsung 950 up to test via HDMI connection, the PQ still avg looking. The SS 950 has such a lack of settings to tweak the PQ/image, very sad.

I then tried connecting my recently purchased Panasonic S77 back up via HDMI, played around with the settings (has a lot of settings to tweak the PQ/Image, very nice) & was able to improve the image greatly, as compared to before.

Happy with the S77, will have a calibration done soon, to tweak both my 5688 & Panasonic S77 player for the best possible performance.

Calibration by a so called ISF tech should not be necessary to fix this contrast problem.
I've done both. The DVE disk combined with changing gamma to zero improved detail in dark areas. It also improved the contrast, brightness, and color settings for a better overall image. Skin tones were also better and black and white crush was decreased.

Having our set (HLP5063) calibrated by SethS made a much bigger difference in all those areas. It also gave the overall image a "wow" factor.

No set from any mass producer I know about has ever been delivered to a customer that couldn't be improved with calibration. Wanting that improvement is a personal choice. All you have to do is buy a set that is the best you can imagine, out of the box, and you should be happy for life. :)

Not all video content fills all the video to the SD specified edges, that's actually most of the reason behind overscan.

Have you used DVE or Avia to perform an initial calibration of your TV. You may find that you're screen is shifted down a bit, when veiwing on the Overscan images. In the Service Menu you can adjust the positioning (On my HLP5674 it was one pixel per numeric value - it's been a while since I did it.)

Recentering it should help it to get rid of the top and bottom video edges when watching SD content. It will not do anything for side edges though, one of my local news channels consistently has a bad left edge. It's about 4 pixels, then a vertical black line, then the rest is fine.

I record most of my Analog SD shows on my HTPC (the SA8300HD DVR does a very bad job on Analog SD shows) and my HTPC is setup so that my Desktop is only 1177x668 of the 1280x720 signal I'm sending the TV via DVI thus it's centered and no overscan. When you watch TV content on this, you see the top bars move up and down between commericials and programming all of the time. That's because no overscan is being done, it's desplaying the full video frame in a smaller space then what the TV would have done.

CCourtney

Here's something strange. A few days ago I recorded 3 shows (via an HD TiVo) where this overscan appeared. I checked each of the shows again yesterday and still had the overscan on the recorded versions. Now today, when I went to watch each of the shows, there was no overscan at all on any of the shows. I assume that this can't repair itself so does anyone have any idea as to what happened?

I hear that!

After two months of anguishing over whether I should buy a 50" plasma or the 6168 Sammy, I went with the Sammy. It arrives this Thursday. My intention is go 100% HTPC. I am relieved to hear that another 1080p Sammy owner has done this and is having good results.

Can you elaborate a bit more on your specific set up? Any tips for another Sammy owner who will be building an HTPC from scratch just for this TV?

I am currently running my home workstation on double duty as a part time media center. But I don't want to drag it into the living room, so I am thinking of building a HTPC from a shuttle box and using Snapstream or Meedio instead of Windows Media center.

(p.s. have you tried WinDVD 7.0 with it's Trimension DNM filter yet? I have never seen a DVD look so good before in my life. It is astounding! I can't wait to see it on the 6168!!!)

I am a linux user. Therefore, I am using Myth:

http://www.mythtv.org

Myth is divided into a "backend" and a "frontend". You can run both the backend and the frontend software on the same machine, if you want. You can have as many frontend and as many backend machines as you want. There is always a "master" backend which controls any "slave" backends.

Cool thing about running the backend on a separate machine from the frontend, is the "noisy" backend with all of it's hard drives, can be in another room. The "frontend" machine can be made nice and quiet, since it just needs to stream the video over the network, and send it to the TV.

My "master" Myth backend machine has three HD-3000 ATSC tuners, and most of my storage. My "slave" Myth backend has one PVR-500 NTSC tuner. My frontend just has a nVidia FX5700LE video card, a small hard drive, and a DVD rom drive.

One of the coolest things about Myth, is it's scheduler. It knows that it has X number of tuner cards and automatically schedules programs to record in the most optimal way. If it runs out of tuner cards for simultaneous shows, it automatically search to see if any of those shows are on again at another time, and adjusts the recording schedule appropriately.

While Myth has modules for music, weather, games, news, etc., I don't use much of that stuff. I mostly use it to watch DVDs and TV shows.

The video quality is outstanding. DVDs look better than with any stand-alone DVD player I have tried. HD shows, of course, are excellent. Even SD shows look good.

John

My SA8300HD is running the Passport software, so the hookup manual's front panel access procedure for getting into the setup menus are disabled (thanks to Time Warner). However, I can still use the remote:

1) Settings button brings up the basic Settings screen.
2) Hit the A (yellow triangle) button (I think) for More Settings.
3) Find the output listing (can't remember exact name). You can toggle on/off any or all of the following:

480i / 480p / 720p / 1080i

Turning them all on will make the player output the signal in its original form -- use this if you want the tv to do the scaling instead of the 8300HD. Turning only 1080i on will make the player upconvert any other signal to 1080i -- use this if you can't stand the amount of time it takes for your tv to switch channels in the first option.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

Hey Cal, thanks for responding.

So which option would you or anyone else here suggest I'd go with?

(1) Turning all resolutions on, thus allowing the TV to do the scalling, or
(2) turning on 1080i only & allowing the SA8300HD to do the scaling?

I will try connecting the SA8300HD via HDMI, will post later my results.

John,

What audio card are you using? I'm currently using an Audigy 2 pro, and I'm unable to get a good digital out to my receiver. This is the last hurdle I have to get over.

Rick

I am using an old (original) Sound Blaster Live! card. I use Linux, so am using the ALSA drivers for this card.

The digital audio output to my preamp sounds great. DTS, DD, PCM all work perfectly.

I did have trouble getting an Maudio card to work. That is why I fell back to this old SB Live! card.

John

I have an 5668 and for some SD content the picture does not appear to fill the entire screen. I'm NOT talking about the black bars, what I am seeing is some "noise" at the very top edge of the screen, as if the picture isn't filling out the entire screen. It doesn't happen on every SD show, but often enough to be noticeable. Does this just mean that the screen dimensions need to be adjusted or is there something else that is wrong?You don't have enough overscan for the troublesome channels. :rolleyes:

On the HLP sets, if the input is 720p DVI or HDMI you can just switch from Expand mode to Wide (TV) mode which increases the overscan. I haven't bothered to do that very often. You can also go into the SM and adjust the location of the image which should cover up the signal noise if it isn't too wide.

On our HLP those controls are in the DDP1011 menu right at the top. They are called V-Position and H-Position. I think these controls should be available in the User menu.

I haven't done that either. :o

Verical was the only direction that worked on the original HLM sets. Someone pointed out to me then that the STB I was using could do vertical image placement too and that was a better place to do the adjustment because it only effected that source instead of all sources.

Good luck.

Here is a few pics of screen with WM Center 2005.I just hooked it up and had no overscan and 1:1 pixels.The pictures does no justice of how fabulous this picture really is.Its vibrant ,clear. i will post more when i get my D* HD DVR Tivo thurs.

Are you running 1920x1080? What pattern did you use to verify 1:1 mapping? With these TVs, you can only do two out of three:

- 1920x1080
- 1:1 mapping
- no overscan

You have to give up on one of them. Well, maybe you can do some mechanical adjustments inside the TV but I haven't heard of anyone doing that yet.

I was wondering about why people were getting overscan so i had a hunch.Correct me if im wrong.I did a measurement of my screen and the ratio came out to 1.78032:1 and 16:9 is 1.78.I got the spec sheets for the 50xx,56xx,61xx and the 5087 and the ratio came out to be below 1.78.
...

No, the aspect ratio doesn't explain it because the overscan is present on both X and Y dimensions.

I think it's quite likely that not all of these sets exhibit lack of detail in the blacks. Again, some of that may be due to slight differences in the mechanical attributes from set to set, some of it may be due to the shipping process knocking things around. Look at how many owners have mentioned different SM settings ...

While it can be frustrating to those of us not enthusiastic about spending more money on a calibration (I'm on the fence myself), I fully expect that each and every set will have its own "personality," if you will ... calibration would bring out the best in each one with unique tweaks.

In addition, I've personally noticed a significant improvement in shadow detail when playing DVDs on my 5078 by switching to what I feel is a higher quality player. So what I before was thinking of as a possible limitation of the tv has turned out for me to be a limitation of the source.


I agree that there is a large source component to this issue as I see different levels from different sources and programs. There are a lot of posts that suggest that the tv may be so accurate that the source abberations are amplified. In my case I think I am being overly sensitive because the first set I had was so bad - no shadow detail at all - so now it is what I look for the most. I did (with trepidation) go into the SM and sett gamma to 0 which did help. I will still get a calibration done. If the sets came reasonbaly calibrated off the shelf it would be one thing, but they are so tweaked to look dynamic and there are so many interacting parameters and so many source variations that it's hard to be sure what the settings should be. It will be good to get a professional base line and possibly adjust personal preference from there.

Hey Cal, thanks for responding.

So which option would you or anyone else here suggest I'd go with?

(1) Turning all resolutions on, thus allowing the TV to do the scalling, or
(2) turning on 1080i only & allowing the SA8300HD to do the scaling?

I will try connecting the SA8300HD via HDMI, will post later my results.

I have the same STB with 6168 (HDMI connected) and I saw no noticeable difference in PQ either way, (in HD or SD content) so I've been sending only 1080i to the set. This way I don't get the couple seconds of garbled mess on my screen whenever I switch channels.

Are you running 1920x1080? What pattern did you use to verify 1:1 mapping? With these TVs, you can only do two out of three:

- 1920x1080
- 1:1 mapping
- no overscan

You have to give up on one of them. Well, maybe you can do some mechanical adjustments inside the TV but I haven't heard of anyone doing that yet.



No, the aspect ratio doesn't explain it because the overscan is present on both X and Y dimensions.

Actually depending on your Video Card that's not true.

At least with GeForce 6xxx Video cards w/ DVI outputs and the XP or MCE drivers you can send a 1920x1080 signal and have a desktop size smaller then this and centered inside the 1920x1080. So you're more like 1765x993 (which is about all the pixels you can see due to always having overscan - as the optics are fixed, and the number of pixels you get are fixed.) Thus you Keep 1:1, You get No Overscan, but you're sending a 1920x1080 signal (but the desktop is centered 1765x993 image inside the 1920x1080)

At least this is what I do on my HLP5674 (well 1280x720 w/ 1177x668 desktop) I'm running a LEADTEK GF PX6200 TC-64.

CCourtney

I have the same STB with 6168 (HDMI connected) and I saw no noticeable difference in PQ either way, (in HD or SD content) so I've been sending only 1080i to the set. This way I don't get the couple seconds of garbled mess on my screen whenever I switch channels.I do the same thing for the very same reason ... make the STB do the scaling. Not that I think that's the best option for PQ, but it would drive my wife nuts if almost every channel change was held up by a second or two. Sometimes when I really want to get the best PQ for a particular show, I'll quickly go in and allow the STB to output the correct format. I haven't had enough time to compare PQ between either option yet. I'll report back whenever I do get around to it.

I just got my HLR-6168w. Connected my samsung hl950 dvd player via HDMI to HDMI 1 on TV. Im not getting Dolby Digital sound thew my reciever.

Should I connect the optical out from the DVD also to get the digital sound? I thought that HDMI carries video and sound?

Any thoughts,


Thanks

I just got my HLR-6168w. Connected my samsung hl950 dvd player via HDMI to HDMI 1 on TV. Im not getting Dolby Digital sound thew my reciever.

Should I connect the optical out from the DVD also to get the digital sound? I thought that HDMI carries video and sound?

Any thoughts,


Thanks
There are a number of posts on this, but here's the bottom line. First, if you have optical out from the TV to your receiver, you will only get two channel audio since, although HDMI does carry sound, with this TV it will only output 2 channels if the sound is input via HDMI (in contrast, if sound comes in via the cable card or the OTA, it will output 5.1 via the optical out). Therefore, you will need to connect the 950 to your receiver via optical. You also need to set the 950 to "bitstream" instead of PCM in order to get 5.1 sound. Once you do all this, you will get an error message with the 950 (it'll say something like "HDMI audio not supported"), but don't worry about it as it is normal and goes away once the movie begins playing.

Does anyone know how to shut the TV guide feature off. I turned it on when I initially set up the set, but now I would like to turn it off completely. I tried going in tot he TV Guide Setup menu, but I couldn'td find anything that would let me turn it off. It only gave me the option of going through the setup again.

Thanks
-dreamr

Thanks for the quick response RMSko. I will try this tonight.


Another question: Hlr-6168w connected to xbox?

Connected my xbox via hd component cables and optical. Picture on the games is very bad (boxy w/ faint horezontal lines)


Am I doing something wrong, possably a wrong seting?

Thanks

I just got my HLR-6168w. Connected my samsung hl950 dvd player via HDMI to HDMI 1 on TV. Im not getting Dolby Digital sound thew my reciever.

Should I connect the optical out from the DVD also to get the digital sound? I thought that HDMI carries video and sound?

Any thoughts,


Thanks

The 950 also has a few more quirks ... you might want to read my DVD player review in POST #4 of this thread.

T
Another question: Hlr-6168w connected to xbox?

Connected my xbox via hd component cables and optical. Picture on the games is very bad (boxy w/ faint horezontal lines)

Am I doing something wrong, possably a wrong seting?

Thanks

Some amount of "jagginess" is to be expected with the current generation of consoles on a big HD display: there just isn't enough resolution, polygon fill, or texture resolution to give a super-clear picture, especially without built-in FSAA. Some games come pretty close though and keep the jaggies to a minimum (Dead or Alive 2 Extreme and Ninja Gaiden come to mind), while other games (like Halo 2 and Unreal Championship 2) are extremely jaggy.

Two simple things to check you might have already done:

(a) make sure you have enabled progressive and higher-resolution output on your Xbox. Go into your Xbox video settings and enable 480p and 720p and 1080i (they default to disabled).

(b) make sure the Xbox input on the TV is *not* labeled GAME. Labeling an input as "GAME" apparently bypasses a number of processing steps to reduce button lag, but only works with 480i sources.

Thanks for the quick response RMSko. I will try this tonight.


Another question: Hlr-6168w connected to xbox?

Connected my xbox via hd component cables and optical. Picture on the games is very bad (boxy w/ faint horezontal lines)


Am I doing something wrong, possably a wrong seting?

ThanksIf you haven't already done so ... Go to the xbox dashboard (power on with no disc) and go to the video settings menu ... there you can tell the console what aspect ratio your set is and, more importantly to your particular issue, what picture formats your tv supports (480p, 720p, 1080i).

Let us know if that solves anything.

EDIT: Ha! Nvrlnd beat me to it!

(b) make sure the Xbox input on the TV is *not* labeled GAME. Labeling an input as "GAME" apparently bypasses a number of processing steps to reduce button lag, but only works with 480i sources.Selecting GAME as an input label on the tv will not convert any signal to 480i. It only has an effect if you force the console (or whatever source) to ouput 480i.

Are you running 1920x1080? What pattern did you use to verify 1:1 mapping? With these TVs, you can only do two out of three:

- 1920x1080
- 1:1 mapping
- no overscan

You have to give up on one of them. Well, maybe you can do some mechanical adjustments inside the TV but I haven't heard of anyone doing that yet.



No, the aspect ratio doesn't explain it because the overscan is present on both X and Y dimensions.

OOps.Dont know Why I typed in 1:1 mapping.I am at 1920X1080Thought people were getting overscan on that resolution.What program is there to try to get 1:1 or to test.

Hi all,
I have been monitoring this post and forum for a while now and decided to joining today. I would like to thank everyone who has taken the time to post their thoughts and experiences, what a wealth of info! This forum and thread is now at the top of my list of places to visit/monitor!

I have a bit of a background in color and am going to have my set ISF calibrated but I still have some questions.

I have a Dish 942 (HD DVR) and a Samsung HD 950 upconverting DVD player connected to my HL-R6168W using HDMI.

The picture color looks fine when viewing 480 i/p from either the DVR 480 or HD950. When I use 720/1080 i/p, the picture takes on a green hue/cast. I have tried the HD 950 in both RGB and YPbPr outputs. I have no clue about what the DVR 942 is dong when using HDMI. Anyone know?

I believe the green tint could be due to the HL-R 6168 switching to a HD (Rec 709) decoder while the input is SD (Rec. 601). I have no proof but have seen something similar on a FP unit and corrected it by forcing it to use the SD decoder/primaries for high resolution inputs.

I have seen earlier in this post where Dave Abrams stated that SD decoding should be used since nobody (or few) are source encoding using HD (Rec. 709) standards. This sounds reasonable and coming from a pro, I’ll take that as a given.

I have seen the postings about the CCA in the SM and have even gone into mine and confirmed it is the same (with some value differences). And no, I am not tempted to mess around with the values; I don’t have the equipment or experience.

What is confusing me is that the CCA does not seem to have a selection for SD/HD decoder. It seems clear that you can adjust the color coordinates of the primaries and secondaries but I do not see a selection for the decoder itself.

From my feeble knowledge, the decoder and color coordinates of the primaries must match type. If you were to use a HD decoder with SD primaries (or visa versa), the saturation/luminance values would be out, regardless on how the source was encoded. From my knowledge;

Source encoding type = Decoder type = color coordinate set for primaries

I understand the source encoding part from Dave’s post, and have seen where the color coordinates could be set/adjusted, but what about the decoder type?

What am I missing? Is there a selection for the decoder? Is my basic understanding wrong? Could this be the cause of my green tint?

Sorry for the long post and TIA
Color Confused
Chris

I'm going to try a different HDMI cable. See if it makes a difference.
Is there anything in the menu or settings on the SA8300HD/DVR that I need to access or adjust to make it work with an HDMI connection.

I'm anything but an expert, but after a bit of fiddling, it seems that in the long Settings menu (hit Settings twice), I have AUdio: Digital Out set to Dolby Digital (since I don't have a through HDMI connection--it becomes DVI in my AVR). I also have Set: Picture Format at Auto DVI/HDMI. (Does anyone know what Upconvert1 and Upconvert2 do? I probably should check on the STB forum. If there is one.) Anyway, those seem to be the only settings that should affect the connection.

Hi all,

A follow up question to my own post ;-)

I read that using color filters with color bar patterns is cannot be used to judge color decoding on these sets because they use pseudo-primaries. That is, they create accurate primaries using combinations of the sets native color wheel primaries. The story goes that since a color wheel is used, the additions of the other primaries to make up these pseudo-primaries is filtered out so you cannot really use filters with a color bar pattern. So,

1. Is this really true?
2. If so, is there an easy way to evaluate color decoding without going to pro equipment?

Thanks
Chris

Hi all,

A follow up question to my own post ;-)

I read that using color filters with color bar patterns is cannot be used to judge color decoding on these sets because they use pseudo-primaries. That is, they create accurate primaries using combinations of the sets native color wheel primaries. The story goes that since a color wheel is used, the additions of the other primaries to make up these pseudo-primaries is filtered out so you cannot really use filters with a color bar pattern. So,

1. Is this really true?
2. If so, is there an easy way to evaluate color decoding without going to pro equipment?

Thanks
ChrisWelcome! :) Good questions on topics I'd love to learn more about as well ... I've also noticed the green cast over HDMI on my 5078, and have assumed that it would need calibration to get rid of it and obtain the most neutral greyscale tracking.

EDIT: I did notice that the green cast is much stronger in the Warm2 picture mode. And when I attempt to use the color filters on DVE I am always able to get blue matched to the reference signal, but I'm never able to get red and green at the same time. I can get red to match, but not at the same time as blue. I've not yet been able to get green to match at all ... it looks pretty bad.

Actually depending on your Video Card that's not true.

At least with GeForce 6xxx Video cards w/ DVI outputs and the XP or MCE drivers you can send a 1920x1080 signal and have a desktop size smaller then this and centered inside the 1920x1080. So you're more like 1765x993 (which is about all the pixels you can see due to always having overscan - as the optics are fixed, and the number of pixels you get are fixed.) Thus you Keep 1:1, You get No Overscan, but you're sending a 1920x1080 signal (but the desktop is centered 1765x993 image inside the 1920x1080)
[...]


Sorry but like I said, you have to give up on one of these three:

- 1920x1080
- 1:1 mapping
- no overscan

I'm very familiar with what you're suggesting but obviously, 1765x993 means that you're giving up on the 1920x1080. That's probably fine for most computer usage but I primarily use my HTPC to watch video, so I prefer to give up on the "no overscan".

That's probably fine for most computer usage but I primarily use my HTPC to watch video, so I prefer to give up on the "no overscan".Me too but our set is a HLP.

Sorry but like I said, you have to give up on one of these three:

- 1920x1080
- 1:1 mapping
- no overscan

I'm very familiar with what you're suggesting but obviously, 1765x993 means that you're giving up on the 1920x1080. That's probably fine for most computer usage but I primarily use my HTPC to watch video, so I prefer to give up on the "no overscan".


imo, most content someone's going to watch off an HTPC will not be native 1920x1080 and will have to be scaled to fit the desktop resolution. i suppose that argument would make sense if you wanted to watch 1080p video sources, or such, but otherwise, i don't see how it has any bearing. perhaps i'm missing something ...

i'm running at a desktop res of 1840x1024 which fills the screen completely, so we're talking about a pretty insignificant loss in resolution for a significant gain in viewing area.

Hey Guys,

Has anyone received their warranty package yet. I had my set delievered on 8-19. I still haven't received anything about the RepairMaster warranty.

-dreamr

Hey Guys,

Has anyone received their warranty package yet. I had my set delievered on 8-19. I still haven't received anything about the RepairMaster warranty.

-dreamrShould be discussed in the PowerBuy thread, but FYI, it took about 3-4 weeks for my RepairMaster warranty materials to arrive. According to my TVA rep, 4-6 weeks is Warrantech's stated delivery time for said materials.

Here's a new question:

HDMI is capable of carrying 10-bit video, and some DVD players do output 10-bit video. Does anyone know for sure, whether these 1080p sets actually process the video with all 10 bits, or do they throw away the last two bits and process only 8 bits?

I believe the DMD is 8-bit, but a great deal of benefit can come from processing all 10 bits (particularly in the gamma correction circuit) before it reaches the DMD.

Gary

imo, most content someone's going to watch off an HTPC will not be native 1920x1080 and will have to be scaled to fit the desktop resolution. i suppose that argument would make sense if you wanted to watch 1080p video sources, or such, but otherwise, i don't see how it has any bearing. perhaps i'm missing something ...

Well, I use my HTPC primarily to watch TV and I do have HD tuner cards so I do watch 1080i. I'd rather not have the PC rescale that, too, especially since most TVs have overscan anyway. But hey, I haven't insisted that this is the best approach for everyone. I'm just saying that with these TVs, you can't have all three: 1920x1080, 1:1 mapping, and no overscan. The nice thing about the HTPC approach is that you get to choose which one to give up.

I just got word that my donkey is leaving California in the morning with my 6178. I would like to say thank you to EVERYBODY that has posted here in the last 6 months, weather it has been positive or negitive. I feel that I have now made an educated decision as to what type/size of HDTV to buy.
Thanks again.

The audio lag/lip sync issue is likely on Dish's side. I have a JVC 52G786 with a Dish 942 HD DVR. There are issues mostly on RAVE and RUSH HD. Several others on DBSTalk have reported this to Dish. They responded that their engineers have recognized the problem and are troubleshooting it.

The lip sync delay is a sum of at least two items. Video processing time (always there but variable) and signal source out of syns (could be + or -). The Felstron could remove the processing delay (TV input dependent) thus reducing the delay and make it more tolerable.

The lip sync delay is a FACT OF LIFE for all TVs that have to process the video but most viewers don't see it. It can herd with the echo test . I'll go with a new AVR with adjustable delays for each input. But, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

The lip sync delay is a sum of at least two items. Video processing time (always there but variable) and signal source out of syns (could be + or -). The Felstron could remove the processing delay (TV input dependent) thus reducing the delay and make it more tolerable.

The lip sync delay is a FACT OF LIFE for all TVs that have to process the video but most viewers don't see it. It can herd with the echo test . I'll go with a new AVR with adjustable delays for each input. But, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

I don't see how the video processing time could be variable. For a given processor and and input type (i.e. 480i may be different than 1080i), I would think video processing time would be constant. Otherwise, you would see frame rate changes.

As a point of information, I've compared the Samsung 1080p sets with others in several large video stores. I think it has the best picture of any DLP I've seen so far. But with regard to the video delay, I can see the delay when the set is placed next to a bank of others. With a bunch of tv's connected to the same source, I can see the delay when the scene suddenly changes. All the other sets will change scenes, and the 1080p will take a split second longer to also change scenes. It happens in every store I've looked for it. Unfortunately, with the digital audio signal routed to a separate sound system, I can perceive the audio/video synch problem. These 1080p sets do take more time to process the signal than the non-1080p sets. It's just not clear to me from any reviews so far how much difference, if any, there is between different input types (does 1080i have a shorter delay than 480i or 480p?)

It will interesting to see if any other 1080p sets this year allow for compensation of the delay by passing the digital audio signal through the set (where it could add the appropriate delay). That's about all I'm waiting to see before I finally pull the trigger.

I called my local Best Buy (Yorba Linda CA) to see if they had an HLR-6768W in stock and on display since they had promised me a month ago that it was "about 2 weeks away". The answer I got was that yes, they had one in stock but had no plans to put it on the floor.

Yes that is unbelievable but it is what the guy said. I give it a 50/50 chance that they actually have it. But maybe they do.

I tried Fry's a day later. They were the first local outlet to get a 6168 up ane running. Nothing in their system.

Dear Samsung: It's not July anymore. And by tomorrow it won't even be August. So where is my HLR-6768?

Anybody know if there have been any 6768 sightings (not counting CES 2005) ?

Here's a new question:

HDMI is capable of carrying 10-bit video, and some DVD players do output 10-bit video. Does anyone know for sure, whether these 1080p sets actually process the video with all 10 bits, or do they throw away the last two bits and process only 8 bits?

I believe the DMD is 8-bit, but a great deal of benefit can come from processing all 10 bits (particularly in the gamma correction circuit) before it reaches the DMD.

Gary

Some DVD players may output 10 bits but DVD is 8 bits period so those that
output 10 bits are add something to it :-)

Don't know for sure if the 1080p DMDs went to 10 bits or not ( I heard they
did but have seen nothing to document this ) but the 8 bit DMDs were able to
get a higher bit resolution by producing grey levels between those actually
produced by modulating the grey among adjacent mirrors. Issue #99 of
Widescreen review goes into detail on this. For example, if mirror A was at state
145 and mirror B at say state 146 a square of mirrors AB on top and mirrors BA
on the bottom produced an effective grey level of 145.5.

I called my local Best Buy (Yorba Linda CA) to see if they had an HLR-6768W in stock and on display since they had promised me a month ago that it was "about 2 weeks away". The answer I got was that yes, they had one in stock but had no plans to put it on the floor.

Yes that is unbelievable but it is what the guy said. I give it a 50/50 chance that they actually have it. But maybe they do.

I tried Fry's a day later. They were the first local outlet to get a 6168 up ane running. Nothing in their system.

Dear Samsung: It's not July anymore. And by tomorrow it won't even be August. So where is my HLR-6768?

Anybody know if there have been any 6768 sightings (not counting CES 2005) ?

Yes ... they are in distribution.

there's been lots of talk about DD/DTS passing through your tv, to your receiver via digital optical cable. i have the 5668 and the HD950. i get confused with all the abbreviations and technical language.

will DD/DTS pass through a digital optical cable from my TV to my receiver (HD950 connected to TV via HDMI)??

I'm anything but an expert, but after a bit of fiddling, it seems that in the long Settings menu (hit Settings twice), I have AUdio: Digital Out set to Dolby Digital (since I don't have a through HDMI connection--it becomes DVI in my AVR). I also have Set: Picture Format at Auto DVI/HDMI. (Does anyone know what Upconvert1 and Upconvert2 do? I probably should check on the STB forum. If there is one.) Anyway, those seem to be the only settings that should affect the connection.

upconvert1 will take all HD programming (720p/1080i) and output it at 1080i, while leaving 480i as is. upconvert2 does similar but outputs HD at 720p

Sharp the answer is no. The tv doesn't pass 5.1 through the digital out if you use HDMI. If you are using the internal ota tuner or cable card, then it can. at least that is what I remember.

Personally I would have preferred for them to put an optical in instead since it's pretty much useless to me the way hdmi is currently implemented on this tv in regards to 5.1. I have no plans for ota or cablecard. I'm a satellite guy.

Sharp the answer is no. The tv doesn't pass 5.1 through the digital out if you use HDMI. If you are using the internal ota tuner or cable card, then it can. at least that is what I remember.


if i use the HDMI from the DVD to the TV, and use a digital coax (or optical) cable from the DVD to the receiver, then i should get DD/DTS, right? with the risk of lip synching.

I hear that!

After two months of anguishing over whether I should buy a 50" plasma or the 6168 Sammy, I went with the Sammy. It arrives this Thursday. My intention is go 100% HTPC. I am relieved to hear that another 1080p Sammy owner has done this and is having good results.

Can you elaborate a bit more on your specific set up? Any tips for another Sammy owner who will be building an HTPC from scratch just for this TV?

I am currently running my home workstation on double duty as a part time media center. But I don't want to drag it into the living room, so I am thinking of building a HTPC from a shuttle box and using Snapstream or Meedio instead of Windows Media center.

(p.s. have you tried WinDVD 7.0 with it's Trimension DNM filter yet? I have never seen a DVD look so good before in my life. It is astounding! I can't wait to see it on the 6168!!!)


I received my 6168 last friday and have been hooking everything up and finally got everything working yesterday. Per your question; i've incorporated a HTPC into my system; although i have a DVD Recorder too... I use the HTPC more for audio/mp3 jukebox and home-video authoring rather than watching DVDs... here's my setup:
Custom Built Box (no name system)
2.8 ghz P4; 512 mb memory
All-in-wonder 9600
Audigy 2 zs Platinum Pro
400 gb HD over 2 disks;
this pc is networked and has access to another 600 gb of storage for backup/redundancy.

I just bought the audigy 2 zs and am using the outboard device to connect digitally to my receiver. Audio is fabulous.
I bought a vga-> component adapter for my 9600 from ATI for $30 and the PC is connected via component - it is fabulous picture quality.

My hookups to my 6168:
HDMI 1 - DTV DVR
HDMI2 - nothing yet
Component 1 - DVD Recorder
Component 2 - HTPC
Composite 1 - PS2 (ugh the picture quality)

Everything is connected digitally to my receiver. I use Itunes as the device to play the MP3s I've ripped - it's only 27gb in size so i keep it backed up on a separate device in case a hard drive crashes...

if i use the HDMI from the DVD to the TV, and use a digital coax (or optical) cable from the DVD to the receiver, then i should get DD/DTS, right? with the risk of lip synching.

yes.

If anyone is waiting for a 7178 Samsung is now saying October.

wow. i'm glad i changed to the 67, even though I now wonder if i should have just waited for toshiba and mits to come out with their products since i already have the 5668 and could gotten buy with it.

upconvert1 will take all HD programming (720p/1080i) and output it at 1080i, while leaving 480i as is. upconvert2 does similar but outputs HD at 720p

Many thanks--makes sense. From what I think I've heard on this forum, the best way to get to the 1080p display would be 1080i. So that suggests changing the STB setting from Auto DVI/HDMI to Upconvert1, and not worrying whether the station is broadcasting in 720p or 1080i. Or have I forgotten something?

I now have the option to switch to one of the 73" Mits and am seriously considering it. My initial compairson of 62" models gave the edge to the Mits in PQ and style. VGA input is an issue, you need to go to the most expensive model to get it.

I've searched around for info on DLP pincushion in general. I'm wondering how the pincushion on my 6168 compares with others. Mine's noticeable in 16:9 menus (e.g. TV Guide), tables like sports stats or similar blocks or grids in regular programming, and any 4:3 content which obviously exposes lines on the sides, making the bowing readily visible. Most 16:9 content doesn't expose it, unless someone's standing next to a door in a closeup or something. Or maybe a head-on architectural shot.

Anyway, here's a few snapshots of my set with some 16:9 and 4:3 content onscreen, for comparison. The lens used has no distortion at the focal lengths used, so the bowing of the geometry is pretty accurate to what I see in person. These shots are only meant to show pincushion and are not accurate in color, exposure, or anything else.

http://jswham.home.comcast.net/16x9_Resolution1.jpg
http://jswham.home.comcast.net/16x9_Resolution2.jpg
http://jswham.home.comcast.net/16x9_Anamorphic_Geometry.jpg
http://jswham.home.comcast.net/16x9_Color_Bars.jpg
http://jswham.home.comcast.net/16x9_Percent_Overscan.jpg
http://jswham.home.comcast.net/16x9_TV_Guide.jpg
http://jswham.home.comcast.net/4x3_Cable1.jpg
http://jswham.home.comcast.net/4x3_Cable2.jpg

I am on my second set. First set had no problems with vertical straightness. This set does. I get noise on the right side with a reflection of the picture. I get pincushion along the bottom and any scrolling ticker shows up as over the edge.

I have heard others say they had to align a DMD (?) board and that was hard so some tech guys were replacing light engines. I have called samsung and got a local tech guy that called yesterday and is ready to look at it.

Anyone had this fixed and what was the fix?

i hope this isn't asking too much. but could someone with the proper knowledge (please) make a list of "issues", and divide them into two groups.

1) things an ISF Calibrator can fix
2) things your Samsung warranty should fix

Thanks!!!!

Many thanks--makes sense. From what I think I've heard on this forum, the best way to get to the 1080p display would be 1080i. So that suggests changing the STB setting from Auto DVI/HDMI to Upconvert1, and not worrying whether the station is broadcasting in 720p or 1080i. Or have I forgotten something?I believe the concensus would be that the best signal to send to the tv (short of 1080p, but let's not go there today ;)) would be a 1080i signal. However, the question really is about which device will do a better job of upconverting a 480i, 480p or 720p signal to 1080i before the tv deinterlaces the 1080i to 1080p. I would hope that the tv has a better internal scaler than the typical STB, but I don't know enough about what scalers are in, say the SA8300HD, to know yet.

I mentioned this to TMSKILZ yesterday: I force the STB to do the upconversion of all signals to 1080i, simply because it would drive my wife nuts to wait for the tv to switch formats between most channel changes (not a pretty affair).

Tony: You asked a couple days ago about A/V sync over HDMI when sending stereo audio (via analog l/r) from the source device straight to my AVR. I've tested it with my SA8300HD STB, and the results were as expected. After I made the new hookups, testing with this box was a breeze because it will send signals over any output without having to disconnect the unused outputs. Here's an updated version of my post on page 147.


The following setups exhibit synchronized A/V:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
V: SA8300HD STB ---(hdmi)--> 5078
A: SA8300HD STB ---(hdmi*)--> 5078 ---(optical)--> Denon 1803 AVR

V: SA8300HD STB ---(component)--> 5078
A: SA8300HD STB ---(analog l/r**)--> 5078 ---(optical)--> Denon 1803 AVR


The following setups exhibit video delay:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
V: SA8300HD STB ---(hdmi)--> 5078
A: SA8300HD STB ---(analog l/r***)--> Denon 1803 AVR

V: SA8300HD STB ---(component)--> 5078
A: SA8300HD STB ---(analog l/r***)--> Denon 1803 AVR


*Note: In this setup I wanted to test the audio via analog l/r, but since I was viewing the hdmi video source I was unable to get the tv to pay attention to the analog audio input because it apparently couldn't tear itself away from the audio over hdmi (which, by the way, sounded a hell of a lot better).

**Note: In this setup, the analog l/r cables were connected to the "Audio 1 Out" jacks on the back of the SA8300HD.

***Note: These two setups had the analog l/r cables connected to the "Audio 2 Out" jacks on the back of the SA8300HD.

I have been following the lip sync problem on this thread and found that the last few pages have been enlightening. Thanks for all those posts.

My 6178 is hooked to my cable STB via component video and analog l/r cable. Audio is provided from my STB to my Onkyo receiver via optical cable. If you crank up the volume from both the TV and receiver the sound lag in the TV becomes apparent. If I switch my optical cable from the STB to the digital optical out on the TV the lag disappears. This has been implied in previous posts. However, there is no digital audio input to the TV. The resulting audio going into my receiver is PCM so I lose the high quality sound. The digital output menu on the TV is grayed not allowing a change to Dolby.

If I switch to HDMI input will I be able to access digital Dolby out on the TV? My STB does not have an HDMI output so I would need to find another STB from Adelphia. Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.

Thanks……… Jerry

i hope this isn't asking too much. but could someone with the proper knowledge (please) make a list of "issues", and divide them into two groups.

1) things an ISF Calibrator can fix
2) things your Samsung warranty should fix

Thanks!!!!

The only issues I am aware of is the light output change when exiting
menu and possibly lip sync. There may be a work around for the light output
change issue but the lip sync would have to be dealt with externally.

Some may have defective sets and the warranty should cover this.

If I switch to HDMI input will I be able to access digital Dolby out on the TV? My STB does not have an HDMI output so I would need to find another STB from Adelphia. Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.

Yes, but remember Dolby Digital does not mean 5.1 multichannel.

Tony: You asked a couple days ago about A/V sync over HDMI when sending stereo audio (via analog l/r) from the source device straight to my AVR. I've tested it with my SA8300HD STB, and the results were as expected. After I made the new hookups, testing with this box was a breeze because it will send signals over any output without having to disconnect the unused outputs. Here's an updated version of my post on page 147.


The following setups exhibit synchronized A/V:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
V: SA8300HD STB ---(hdmi)--> 5078
A: SA8300HD STB ---(hdmi*)--> 5078 ---(optical)--> Denon 1803 AVR

V: SA8300HD STB ---(component)--> 5078
A: SA8300HD STB ---(analog l/r**)--> 5078 ---(optical)--> Denon 1803 AVR


The following setups exhibit video delay:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
V: SA8300HD STB ---(hdmi)--> 5078
A: SA8300HD STB ---(analog l/r***)--> Denon 1803 AVR

V: SA8300HD STB ---(component)--> 5078
A: SA8300HD STB ---(analog l/r***)--> Denon 1803 AVR


*Note: In this setup I wanted to test the audio via analog l/r, but since I was viewing the hdmi video source I was unable to get the tv to pay attention to the analog audio input because it apparently couldn't tear itself away from the audio over hdmi (which, by the way, sounded a hell of a lot better).

**Note: In this setup, the analog l/r cables were connected to the "Audio 1 Out" jacks on the back of the SA8300HD.

***Note: These two setups had the analog l/r cables connected to the "Audio 2 Out" jacks on the back of the SA8300HD.

Thanks Calbert,

Very interesting. How much of a video delay do you notice?

The following setups exhibit video delay:
--------------------------------------------------------------------

V: SA8300HD STB ---(component)--> 5078
A: SA8300HD STB ---(analog l/r***)--> Denon 1803 AVR

Curious though. Is this on all channels? Occassional shows? All shows? Is it constant?

I'm running almost the exact same setup. V 8300HD to 6168 via component. A 8300HD optical to outlaw 950. I very very very rarely see the problem. Occassionally on Discovery HD. Occassionally on local news, I've never seen it on other channels though or other programs.

I'm not doubting what you see but it raises more evidence that it has more to do with source than components.

Very interesting. How much of a video delay do you notice?The same amount I notice if I output digital (optical or coax) from the STB to the AVR. It depends on the source, as always. See below ... I'm on Time Warner (digital tier, will soon add the hdtv tier to give them even more of my money :rolleyes:).

Curious though. Is this on all channels? Occassional shows? All shows? Is it constant?Some channels and programs aren't as bad as others. Most (at least 60%) exhibit noticeable video delay. For example, both the SD and HD broadcast of Leno are horrible, almost a second off at times. On the other hand, CNN comes close to being in sync on a lot of their shows; but never in-sync.

With the audio separated from the video like this, there is always a baseline video delay, which I have long since presumed to be due to the tv's video processing time. By this I mean that with this setup, the better channels never get closer than, say, 60ms (just a guess on the number). Any synchronization problems in the source then pile on top of the base video delay ... resulting in the wide variance in perceptible sync problems from channel to channel and show to show.

I'm running almost the exact same setup. V 8300HD to 6168 via component. A 8300HD optical to outlaw 950. I very very very rarely see the problem. Occassionally on Discovery HD. Occassionally on local news, I've never seen it on other channels though or other programs.

I'm not doubting what you see but it raises more evidence that it has more to do with source than components.You can doubt me, I don't mind ;). What I see is certainly affected by what I think I see, by what I think I know -- so better to ask and try to understand, right?

As I mentioned above, I currently subscribe to the assessment that it's a combination effect. I think there's a baseline video delay due to the time it takes the tv to process the video. Perhaps that level is just below perceptible level for some of us, but when you add the delay of poorly synchronized sources on top of that, the aggregate effect can cross that threshold.

On the other hand, I don't yet know what to make of the fact that you see the effect so rarely ... just a better cable feed, do you think? Maybe there could be variance in the SA8300HD's performance from box to box?

Another factor to consider is that I have seen a difference in a component's effect upon A/V synchronization. I originally had the HD950 DVD player, and had all kinds of nasty sync problems. It was almost never in sync. With my new S975V player, the same discs and the same scenes do not exhibit much perceptible video lag ... it may be ever-so-slight, but far better than the 950. So far I'm very satisfied. Both were running over HDMI @1080i, with optical going straight to the AVR.

The same amount I notice if I output digital (optical or coax) from the STB to the AVR. It depends on the source, as always. See below ... I'm on Time Warner (digital tier, will soon add the hdtv tier to give them even more of my money :rolleyes:).

Some channels and programs aren't as bad as others. Most (at least 60%) exhibit noticeable video delay. For example, both the SD and HD broadcast of Leno are horrible, almost a second off at times. On the other hand, CNN comes close to being in sync on a lot of their shows; but never in-sync.

With the audio separated from the video like this, there is always a baseline video delay, which I have long since presumed to be due to the tv's video processing time. By this I mean that with this setup, the better channels never get closer than, say, 60ms (just a guess on the number). Any synchronization problems in the source then pile on top of the base video delay ... resulting in the wide variance in perceptible sync problems from channel to channel and show to show.

You can doubt me, I don't mind ;). What I see is certainly affected by what I think I see, by what I think I know -- so better to ask and try to understand, right?

As I mentioned above, I currently subscribe to the assessment that it's a combination effect. I think there's a baseline video delay due to the time it takes the tv to process the video. Perhaps that level is just below perceptible level for some of us, but when you add the delay of poorly synchronized sources on top of that, the aggregate effect can cross that threshold.

On the other hand, I don't yet know what to make of the fact that you see the effect so rarely ... just a better cable feed, do you think? Maybe there could be variance in the SA8300HD's performance from box to box?

Another factor to consider is that I have seen a difference in a component's effect upon A/V synchronization. I originally had the HD950 DVD player, and had all kinds of nasty sync problems. It was almost never in sync. With my new S975V player, the same discs and the same scenes do not exhibit much perceptible video lag ... it may be ever-so-slight, but far better than the 950. So far I'm very satisfied. Both were running over HDMI @1080i, with optical going straight to the AVR.

What is interesting to me is that you don't see then when you run the
audio through the TV. I have no doubt that the TV takes time to process
the video even in the case where it is not upconverting the resolution.

The only explanation to me ( if the source is exactly the same ) would be
that the TV is auto syncing the video / audio in this case and the fact that
you run the audio back out to the AVR is inconsequential to this.

You definitely want to run optical straight to the AVR in your case so that
you can get DD 5.1 from the STB.

Curious though. Is this on all channels? Occassional shows? All shows? Is it constant?

I'm running almost the exact same setup. V 8300HD to 6168 via component. A 8300HD optical to outlaw 950. I very very very rarely see the problem. Occassionally on Discovery HD. Occassionally on local news, I've never seen it on other channels though or other programs.

I'm not doubting what you see but it raises more evidence that it has more to do with source than components.
NO.

Any source that goes directly to the AVR and bypasses the TV will have a synch delay. Period. No other options. The TV takes about 60-80 ms to process an image over what other TV's take.

You may only notice it with the 'Echo test' but its there. You can even compare 2 TV's side by side and the SS x8's have this delay. Since we don't usually watch 2 TVs side by side its not noticeable and if it is then the audio delay capabilities of the source or AVR or additional component can be applied.

Jury is still out if other 1080P sets do this (there was at least one report that the Sony Qualia does). My guess is that this is a TI problem and is the state of the art of 1080P DLPs right now.

BTW if you are observing intermittent delays it IS the source most likely. Having said that I am still trying to decide what causes the excessive delays in my HD950 that is intermittent. :confused:

Another factor to consider is that I have seen a difference in a component's effect upon A/V synchronization. I originally had the HD950 DVD player, and had all kinds of nasty sync problems. It was almost never in sync. With my new S975V player, the same discs and the same scenes do not exhibit much perceptible video lag ... it may be ever-so-slight, but far better than the 950. So far I'm very satisfied. Both were running over HDMI @1080i, with optical going straight to the AVR.
Calbert: Did you buy your 950 from TVA and did you send it back? I have had mine for over 30 days now so I suspect its mine and will have to go to eBAY.

NO.

Any source that goes directly to the AVR and bypasses the TV will have a synch delay. Period. No other options. The TV takes about 60-80 ms to process an image over what other TV's take.

You may only notice it with the 'Echo test' but its there. You can even compare 2 TV's side by side and the SS x8's have this delay. Since we don't usually watch 2 TVs side by side its not noticeable and if it is then the audio delay capabilities of the source or AVR or additional component can be applied.

Jury is still out if other 1080P sets do this (there was at least one report that the Sony Qualia does). My guess is that this is a TI problem and is the state of the art of 1080P DLPs right now.

BTW if you are observing intermittent delays it IS the source most likely. Having said that I am still trying to decide what causes the excessive delays in my HD950 that is intermittent. :confused:

All sets will have a delay in processing video- the question is how much of a
delay it will be from manufacturer to manufacturer.

If your not a gamer and really love the PQ on the Sammy then I would get a
video processor with audio/video synch, a receiver with this feature, or a stand
alone box that does this.

Fortunately for me, I don't read lips when I watch TV :-)

My guess is that this is a TI problem and is the state of the art of 1080P DLPs right now.Interesting. Doesn't the tv do video processing in conjunction with their implementation of the TI DMD? For example, Faroudja scaling or Samsung's own proprietary processing (DNIe, or whatever they want to call it now)? If we don't see any a/v sync problems with other 1080p DLPs, then I can't imagine it would be a TI problem. What do you think?

Having said that I am still trying to decide what causes the excessive delays in my HD950 that is intermittent. :confused:Wish I could help you there; all I know is that mine was ridiculous, too. It was nowhere near consistent, either. Some of the variance could be caused by source problems, but not if they're not repeatable (is the intermittent delay random, or always at the same scenes?). Another thought: I didn't try the 950 over component more than once, and can't remember how it did with delay ... do you know how it does over component versus HDMI?

Pirates of the Caribbean DVD:

-------------------------------------------
HLR5078 TV:

DVD Player (Panny S97):
Video ---> HDMI ---> 5078
Audio ---> Digital ---> A/V Receiver
Result: Noticeable lip synch problems. Can almost be corrected with 100ms delay in DVD player.

DVD Player (Samsung 850):
Video ---> HDMI ---> 5078
Audio ---> Digital ---> A/V Receiver
Result: Noticeable lip synch problems. Can NOT be corrected as 850 has no delay feature.

DVD Changer (Sony NC80):
Video ---> HDMI ---> 5078
Audio ---> Digital ---> A/V Receiver
Result: Noticeable lip synch problems. Can't seem to eliminate with delay feature.

-------------------------------------------
HLM507 TV:

DVD Player (Panny S97):
Video ---> HDMI ---> 5078
Audio ---> Digital ---> A/V Receiver
Result: No lip synch problems.

DVD Player (Samsung 850):
Video ---> HDMI ---> 5078
Audio ---> Digital ---> A/V Receiver
Result: No lip synch problems.

DVD Changer (Sony NC80):
Video ---> HDMI ---> 5078
Audio ---> Digital ---> A/V Receiver
Result: No lip synch problems.

-------------------------------------------

I can get the same kinds of results with the HLR5078 with several other DVDs and my HR10-250 DiecTV HD Tivo receiver (excluding lip synch problems that are obviously in the source program). I just can't see how the TV can not be the problem here.

No need to suggest that I return the TV, I'm already doing that because I'm not satisfied enough at this time to want to keep it. I just don't want to have keep trying to determine how to eliminate lip synch on a DVD-by-DVD basis or on a program-by-program or channel-by-channel basis with my HD receiver. Instead I will wait to compare the new Mitsubishi and Toshiba 1080p and Sony SXRD TVs. If they are no better then I may revisit the 5078.

I'm also not going to bash Samsung but have simply decided that the Samsung 1080p TV is not for me at this time.
Did you watch long enough to see if the delay got better? The delays I was reporting were on the order of .5 to 1 second, not the 60-80 ms thats normal. Buy by the time Jack Sparrow was making his get away (3-4 chapters in?) it had settled down.

Also see the thread above by Calbert et al on the aggregate of delay factors. When you add the base delays (<100ms), plus some extra source delays, and possibly some other delay (the scaler has to get warmed up :rolleyes: ) it appears that some sources are not just 'right' for these sets.

Most will never see it but over time more will. It took me over 20 days to start noticing some of it. Its hard to tell because so much delays are in the Cable Co's and TV broadcasters I don't even pay attention to those. Most DVDs don't have the severe delays so its a better control point for me.

For right now I am sticking with the TV but letting SS know its not acceptable and they need to address it (especially since their flagship DVD player is the worst offender).

All sets will have a delay in processing video- the question is how much of a
delay it will be from manufacturer to manufacturer.

If your not a gamer and really love the PQ on the Sammy then I would get a
video processor with audio/video synch, a receiver with this feature, or a stand
alone box that does this.

Fortunately for me, I don't read lips when I watch TV :-)
I just live with the <100 ms delays. Not worth worrying about. Its those .5 to 1 second delays I have started to notice that bug me. Its on the HD 950. My older Sony DVD player does not seem to have it as much. That can not be fixed with any delay feature or add on unit. Its not consistent.

The only explanation to me ( if the source is exactly the same ) would be that the TV is auto syncing the video / audio in this case and the fact that
you run the audio back out to the AVR is inconsequential to this.I don't think it's actively syncing any specific signal, but yes, it appears to be accounting for a base amount of video delay before outputting the audio over optical or the internal speakers.

You definitely want to run optical straight to the AVR in your case so that you can get DD 5.1 from the STB.I'd like to, but not until I get a Felston or upgrade my AVR. The video delay I'm seeing with that setup is unacceptable, especially to my wife, so I need to make a source correction.

I don't think it's actively syncing any specific signal, but yes, it appears to be accounting for a base amount of video delay before outputting the audio over optical or the internal speakers.

I'd like to, but not until I get a Felston or upgrade my AVR. The video delay I'm seeing with that setup is unacceptable, especially to my wife, so I need to make a source correction.

You could be right or it could just be frig'in slow at processing the audio :-)

Did you watch long enough to see if the delay got better?Good point, I had forgotten that sometimes the delay gradually would change throughout a movie. However, I noticed it getting worse over the course of a film (Apollo 13 comes to mind). I also remember being able to sometimes correct the problem on some DVDs by jumping back a track and then forward again ...

Interesting. Doesn't the tv do video processing in conjunction with their implementation of the TI DMD? For example, Faroudja scaling or Samsung's own proprietary processing (DNIe, or whatever they want to call it now)? If we don't see any a/v sync problems with other 1080p DLPs, then I can't imagine it would be a TI problem. What do you think?
Yes each TV has additional delays based on processing so it may not be fair to paint this on TI (especially since the Qualia is not DLP). It may be just the state of the art of scalers etc and at this time there are no processors fast enough to handle the load without noticeable delays. Note that in some respects 1080P TV's have twice the resolution of 720P TV so we may have hit the critical wall where this sort of thing shows up now.


Wish I could help you there; all I know is that mine was ridiculous, too. It was nowhere near consistent, either. Some of the variance could be caused by source problems, but not if they're not repeatable (is the intermittent delay random, or always at the same scenes?). Another thought: I didn't try the 950 over component more than once, and can't remember how it did with delay ... do you know how it does over component versus HDMI?
I cannot (or will not) pull apart my system (whole day job) to test the HD950 via component. I don't have an extra cable so its not going to be tested by me. At this point I wouldn't care as I was having a hard time convincing myself that the picture was better via HDMI anyway and with the synch delays, the mb and the black shadow detail losses of the 950 it does not hold a candle to my Sony DVPS7000.

You could be right or it could just frig'in slow at processing the audio :-):D

I cannot (or will not) pull apart my system (whole day job) to test the HD950 via component.;) I don't blame you.

Good point, I had forgotten that sometimes the delay gradually would change throughout a movie. However, I noticed it getting worse over the course of a film (Apollo 13 comes to mind). I also remember being able to sometimes correct the problem on some DVDs by jumping back a track and then forward again ...
On Alexander I had the synch delay get worse and then better during the coarse of a film too. And on a concert video one track was real bad and others OK but on a different DVD player it was consistently good.

BTW it is worth mentioning for new readers here. Way back at the start of this forum a member reported that if they cycled through the sources rapidly they would cause the TV to have synch problems. If they waited at each source for the TV to synch, then they would not get synch delays. Just food for thought.

NO.

Any source that goes directly to the AVR and bypasses the TV will have a synch delay. Period. No other options. The TV takes about 60-80 ms to process an image over what other TV's take.

You may only notice it with the 'Echo test' but its there. You can even compare 2 TV's side by side and the SS x8's have this delay. Since we don't usually watch 2 TVs side by side its not noticeable and if it is then the audio delay capabilities of the source or AVR or additional component can be applied.

Jury is still out if other 1080P sets do this (there was at least one report that the Sony Qualia does). My guess is that this is a TI problem and is the state of the art of 1080P DLPs right now.

BTW if you are observing intermittent delays it IS the source most likely. Having said that I am still trying to decide what causes the excessive delays in my HD950 that is intermittent. :confused:

There is no way anyone of us can give a definite answer of YES or NO. The facts are that some get the delay and some don't. I don't have any compensation features in my outlaw 950. So when watching cable tv it is either there or it isn't. 99.9% of the time there is no problem at all. Forget about "echo test" or putting 2 tv's side by side. That just introduces more factors into the equation. Only judge it by what you see and hear in your normal operating environment. If you have problems then figure out an external way to solve them. If you don't have problems then great. But what it boils down to is there is ZERO evidence that suggests that the answer is a 100% yes or a 100% no.

Every single one of us has reported different things and that right there says a mouthful.

I vote that this topic be banned from the thread. Anyone that asks if they will see delay will just have to be told yes and no. Depends upon your source and components. There is no way to tell a new buyer if they will or won't see it because none of us are there.

I posted these questions on Sunday, but received no responses at the time. Perhaps it is because there are so few Felston owners, but given today's discussion I thought I'd repost.

My HK AVR 330 is one year too old to have the audio delay feature. Othewise I've been really happy with the AVR. Thus I'd appreciate it if several owners of the Felston audio delay unit could respond to these questions. Thanks in advance.

1. Did the Felston fully resolve your problem with lip sync?

2. Do you constantly have to adjust the Felston to achieve #1 above?

3. Is it possible to adjust the Felston via a Harmony remote?

4. Would you purchase the Felston again?

5. Would you recommend that I purchase the Felston, or sell my AVR on Ebay and purchase the newer model with the audio delay? This combination would likely be about the same cost outlay, but more hassle, and it would likely be harder to do constant adjustments if #2 is true. Right?

BTW, I don't yet have a HLR to even know how disruptive the audio delay will be, but hopefully it will be shipped this week. My old 32" Proscan seems to suffer delay on a regular basis, however, so perhaps its my cable service.

Thanks in advance!

There is no way anyone of us can give a definite answer of YES or NO. The facts are that some get the delay and some don't. I don't have any compensation features in my outlaw 950. So when watching cable tv it is either there or it isn't. 99.9% of the time there is no problem at all. Forget about "echo test" or putting 2 tv's side by side. That just introduces more factors into the equation. Only judge it by what you see and hear in your normal operating environment. If you have problems then figure out an external way to solve them. If you don't have problems then great. But what it boils down to is there is ZERO evidence that suggests that the answer is a 100% yes or a 100% no.

Every single one of us has reported different things and that right there says a mouthful.

I vote that this topic be banned from the thread. Anyone that asks if they will see delay will just have to be told yes and no. Depends upon your source and components. There is no way to tell a new buyer if they will or won't see it because none of us are there.

Sorry but I boldly disagree on both your statements.

There is a marginal delay and the echo test proves it without adding anything extra to the mix. You and I may not notice it nor care (I think we are on the same page here) but it is still there.

As far as not discussing the delay on this forum? Its my personal belief that this is the #1 problem of these sets (and one that may be hardest to fix). Many of the other problems that I and others have may be due to defective sets. If it was the marginal delay that can be adjusted with a delay setting or ignored then I would agree with you. A number of folks are reporting much more than that.

Many of the delays are source based, others not. The delays may be inherent in the design. Then again with enough experience (remember only a handful of folks here have had their sets for 30 days or more) we may not have enough statistics to state something should or should not be discussed anymore.

Sorry but I boldly disagree on both your statements.

There is a marginal delay and the echo test proves it without adding anything extra to the mix. You and I may not notice it nor care (I think we are on the same page here) but it is still there.

As far as not discussing the delay on this forum? Its my personal belief that this is the #1 problem of these sets (and one that may be hardest to fix). Many of the other problems that I and others have may be due to defective sets. If it was the marginal delay that can be adjusted with a delay setting or ignored then I would agree with you. A number of folks are reporting much more than that.

Many of the delays are source based, others not. The delays may be inherent in the design. Then again with enough experience (remember only a handful of folks here have had their sets for 30 days or more) we may not have enough statistics to state something should or should not be discussed anymore.

I don't have one of these 1080p's yet, but I think the lip sync business is really making a mountain out of a mole hill! The delay is easily, and trivially corrected by getting the Felston box (if your AVR doesn't have a delay capability). And it will correct things no matter what the origin--tv, source, etc. For only ~ $200 the problem is TOTALLY solved. I may wind up getting a Mits or the Sammy, but this issue will not sway me one way or the other.

I don't have one of these 1080p's yet, but I think the lip sync business is really making a mountain out of a mole hill!I'd agree with that. I'm happy enough with the form factor and picture quality that I'm perfectly fine making short term compromises in my system until I pick up a Felston or upgrade my AVR. If I didn't feel the PQ was there, my part in this discussion never would have happened, and if this business were a deal breaker for me, I never would have bought the set in the first place.

I think it's still worthwhile for those with constructive observations on the subject to post them, as hopefully we'll be able to sort out the specific cause at some point. But I suppose we're not getting anywhere by guessing right now, either. :o

Quick consensus:

Is there a lip-synch issue when using only the TV's audio & speaker system?

Ok I've narrowed things down connection wise (i've yet to order my TV or cables, however the installer is looking into the TV)

SA8300HD(PVR)
-----------------------------
V: SA8300HD ---> (HDMI) ---> 6168
A: SA8300HD --> (toslink) ---> Denon AVR3805

Playstation2
-----------------------------
V: PS2 --> (Component) --> AVR3805 --> (Component --> 6168
A: PS2 --> (Toslink) --> AVR3805

DVD Player:
----------------------------
Unknown, do we have a recommended player yet? Has the 3910 been ruled out?


PC
---------------------------
V: PC --> (VGA) --> 6168
A: PC --> (Coax) --> AVR3805

Thoughts?

- D

I don't have one of these 1080p's yet, but I think the lip sync business is really making a mountain out of a mole hill! The delay is easily, and trivially corrected by getting the Felston box (if your AVR doesn't have a delay capability). And it will correct things no matter what the origin--tv, source, etc. For only ~ $200 the problem is TOTALLY solved. I may wind up getting a Mits or the Sammy, but this issue will not sway me one way or the other.

well Im not sure I would consider a TV that would require an extra 200 hundred dollars to make it work properly....

Trival? maybe not for you but for me it doesn't make sense.

Yes, sometimes, but its typically due to the source such as Discovery HD that has some audio synch problems recently.

I would interpret this as a "no".

well Im not sure I would consider a TV that would require an extra 200 hundred dollars to make it work properly....

Trival? maybe not for you but for me it doesn't make sense.

As many people have noted, AV sync problems can arise from many causes: the tv, or very often the source itself. With a delay box, one can correct it no matter what the cause. And I think $200 is pretty much in the noise when one spends $4 to 5K on a big screen.

well Im not sure I would consider a TV that would require an extra 200 hundred dollars to make it work properly....

Trival? maybe not for you but for me it doesn't make sense.

$200 is not an insignificant amount of money. I think the benefits of the TV outweigh the detractions, however, it's not wise to overlook the possibilities of an added expense depending on ones sensitivity to the problem.

I'm surprised that some people are so willing to gloss over the subject. If I have to deal with it, I'll deal with it, but I won't be happy about it. It's not a deal breaker for me.

Perhaps, in the future, Samsung and other manufacturers will add faster processors to minimize the issue.

But, let's not act like it doesn't exist or that it's insignificant or inconsequential.

Perhaps, in the future, Samsung and other manufacturers will add faster processors to minimize the issue.


I don't feel its the tv makers responsibility. I think the cable boxes, sat boxes, dvd players, and/or receivers should deal with it. The tv these days is simply a monitor.

As many people have noted, AV sync problems can arise from many causes: the tv, or very often the source itself. With a delay box, one can correct it no matter what the cause. And I think $200 is pretty much in the noise when one spends $4 to 5K on a big screen.
You are not following my posts. As I stated if the synch problems were consistent and light (ie < 100ms) then a delay feature or box like the Felston would take care of it.

Also if the synch problems result from the source then unless it is consistent, your delay solution will have no or limited effect.

The problems I am relating to, that I belive that AkaStp, Calbert and a few of us are seeing is that something in the stream is causing major (ie > 500 ms) and intermittent delays, and its not in the source (confirmed because using the DVD's on another system or sometimes a different DVD player does not exhibit the delays). Again I did not see this initially because not all DVD's exhibit this.

Since many people have only viewed a handful of DVD's on their new sets it is way too early to say everything is rosie. I now have about 60 viewings under my belt and at least 5 DVD's exhibit erratic and major synch issues that cannot be adjusted with any sound delay features (not unless I want to constantly stop the movie and adjust the delay feature, nor would the levels of delay available be enough to overcome the delays).

Sometimes a picture is worth a big pile of words. ;):D:D

I don't feel its the tv makers responsibility. I think the cable boxes, sat boxes, dvd players, and/or receivers should deal with it. The tv these days is simply a monitor.

you gotta be kiddin right.... so its all the other manufactures who should take responsibility for samsungs poor engineering....

I guess that makes sense these days... what with all the obese people sueing fast food chains for their poor health.

The problems I am relating to, that I belive that AkaStp, Calbert and a few of us are seeing is that something in the stream is causing major (ie > 500 ms) and intermittent delays, and its not in the source (confirmed because using the DVD's on another system or sometimes a different DVD player does not exhibit the delays). Again I did not see this initially because not all DVD's exhibit this.(my emphasis above)

I do think that the "something" is in fact the particular DVD player in question in our particular case. That player just seems to have major issues with rubber-banding the output of the audio and video, and I don't think either of us would fault the tv for that. Unless you really do mean that "sometimes" a different player doesn't exhibit these larger delays ... if that's the case, I may be wrong, and then I'll be totally confused again. ;)

I totally agree with you that we simply need to spend more time testing before we can claim to understand what's really happening.

I'm not concerned about the need to fork over $200 for a Felston if I must ... as miller says, it's noise at this price for many of us. But IMHO I'd like to have a better understanding of the problem before I go spend that money.

To all,
Since this thread is mostly focusing on delay issues, I cross posted my color cal questions (two earlier posts) to the below so they would not be lost. Thanks for understanding

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=576028

Thanks
Chris

To all,
Since this thread is mostly focusing on delay issues, I cross posted my color cal questions (two earlier posts) to the below so they would not be lost. Thanks for understanding

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=576028

Thanks
ChrisNo reason why this thread should necessarily focus on delay issues ... in fact despite my interest in understanding it, there are probably a number of owners out there sick to death of the subject! :D There are a lot of other things we could be discussing about these sets here, including calibration.

I have not seen lip sync with the TV speakers.

No reason why this thread should necessarily focus on delay issues ... in fact despite my interest in understanding it, there are probably a number of owners out there sick to death of the subject! :D There are a lot of other things we could be discussing about these sets here, including calibration.

AMEN!

No reason why this thread should necessarily focus on delay issues ... in fact despite my interest in understanding it, there are probably a number of owners out there sick to death of the subject! :D There are a lot of other things we could be discussing about these sets here, including calibration.In the past, owners have started separate threads devoted to a group of similar models to do "Sync Research". :)

(my emphasis above)

I do think that the "something" is in fact the particular DVD player in question in our particular case. That player just seems to have major issues with rubber-banding the output of the audio and video, and I don't think either of us would fault the tv for that. Unless you really do mean that "sometimes" a different player doesn't exhibit these larger delays ... if that's the case, I may be wrong, and then I'll be totally confused again. ;)

I totally agree with you that we simply need to spend more time testing before we can claim to understand what's really happening.

I'm not concerned about the need to fork over $200 for a Felston if I must ... as miller says, it's noise at this price for many of us. But IMHO I'd like to have a better understanding of the problem before I go spend that money.
While the HD 950 is the worst offender, I have seen the major delays on my other player too, just no where near as bad.

In the mean time I am going after SS with the two because they CAN do something about that since they own both devices. They would tell me to go pound sand if I told them my 10 year old DVD player has a synch issue with their brand new TV.

If you ask me its something in the stream that caused these TV's to take extra time in processing the image and its not consistent. Unless someone can give me a DVD that has a running elapsed clock on it, I cannot tell for sure what or how much. Anybody seen such a beast?

I have not seen lip sync with the TV speakers.
No one else has either unless it was the source.

Hey Ron :-)

Why are you trolling on the Sammy 1080p owner's forum? Sammy engineering
is awesome. Are there lip sync issues - apparently so but according to
ISF Calibationists these sets are best RPTVs ever...

Are they perfect - hell no but calling Samsung engineering poor is uncalled for.


who you callin Ron? Johny dice...

Im sure calling me a Troll will make all your teched out super Geek friends give you high fives after seeing your post.

Im sorry I insulted your precious swapsung... but I think I can safely question the engineering being a product when three generations of their sets still exihbit the same problems....

you can call it Terrific if you like...

i believe a new issue has been identified. it is extremely long audio delays beyond what could be reasonably corrected for. Also, it seems the delay gets worse as the dvd progresses?

this issue should not be confused with the normal audio delays that are either not noticeable depending on the person, or easily corrected.

i got my oppo yesterday, but haven't connected it. i also don't watch too many dvds so who knows if i might come across this issue any time soon.

No one else has either unless it was the source.

Not true! Unless 1/2 of what is on the 3 major networks (both cable and OTA) has serious, intermittent delay issues.

Seko just picked up my set because I had about a 50-50 chance of seeing anywhere from 100-500(!)ms delay during any HD show I might watch AND IT VARIED CONSIDERABLY DURING THE SHOW so no reasonable tinkering with a sound delay device could possibly fix it (i.e., you would have to keep changing the delay the entire time!).

I have not wanted to "hijack" the thread and that is why you will note I have only posted on this issue once or twice, but for folks to dismiss that this *could* be a problem on *some* sets or to imply that those of us that cannot fix it are either cheap (not paying $200 for a delay device) or dumb is just plain wrong. My set was inexcusably defective and I had to send it back or go nuts.

In the past, owners have started separate threads devoted to a group of similar models to do "Sync Research". :)I don't think I care about it that much ... ;)

Actually though, great idea. Next time I have something useful to say on the topic, I'll start a dedicated thread if nobody else beats me to it.

I have not wanted to "hijack" the thread and that is why you will note I have only posted on this issue once or twice, but for folks to dismiss that this *could* be a problem on *some* sets or to imply that those of us that cannot fix it are either cheap (not paying $200 for a delay device) or dumb is just plain wrong. My set was inexcusably defective and I had to send it back or go nuts.Sorry profjoe, didn't mean to imply that I thought people might be cheap or dumb if they weren't willing to buy a delay device. Certainly not my intent. Your situation sounds pretty bad (as a few others' do as well), and I would have returned it, too. By the way, why wouldn't you want to go nuts? :o

Lipsync, lipsync, lipsync.

I think you all should watch silent films.

So do we have a definitive answer with DVD players yet? I'm not happy not having one :)

- D

So do we have a definitive answer with DVD players yet? I'm not happy not having one :)Welcome back, forgot to reply to your last post.

Definitive? Not yet. However, in case nobody's mentioned it since you returned, check out UCSB's review of three upscaling DVD players in post #4 of this thread. I concur with his assessment that the HD950 falls short when compared with the S975V and the Oppo. Although I've had limited time with it, I'm so far very happy with the S975V. There are other players that have sounded promising, such as the Panny S77 and/or S97, as well as the Pioneer 59avi.

Check out the following thread in the DVD (Standard Def) forum:

DVD Player Options for 1080p DLPs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=567274&page=1&pp=30)

That's a great place to continue the discussion if you like.

Has anyone called Samsung Support to see if they can address the many issues discussed here?

Perhaps the A/V sync can be corrected via a future firmware update. The Samsung 1080p DLP's do have a firmware update service port on the back of the set.

Has anyone called Samsung Support to see if they can address the many issues discussed here?

Perhaps the A/V sync can be corrected via a future firmware update. The Samsung 1080p DLP's do have a firmware update service port on the back of the set.

That's the problem - there just ain'in that many issues. The audio / video
lag is real and ain't going away. Take away the audio / video chatter
and all I have seen as an issue ( barring a defecitive set ) is the light output
changing after making adjustments and exiting setup screen.

You are not following my posts. As I stated if the synch problems were consistent and light (ie < 100ms) then a delay feature or box like the Felston would take care of it.

Also if the synch problems result from the source then unless it is consistent, your delay solution will have no or limited effect.

The problems I am relating to, that I belive that AkaStp, Calbert and a few of us are seeing is that something in the stream is causing major (ie > 500 ms) and intermittent delays, and its not in the source (confirmed because using the DVD's on another system or sometimes a different DVD player does not exhibit the delays). Again I did not see this initially because not all DVD's exhibit this.

Since many people have only viewed a handful of DVD's on their new sets it is way too early to say everything is rosie. I now have about 60 viewings under my belt and at least 5 DVD's exhibit erratic and major synch issues that cannot be adjusted with any sound delay features (not unless I want to constantly stop the movie and adjust the delay feature, nor would the levels of delay available be enough to overcome the delays).

What are those 5 DVDs??

I use a HTPC for all of my DVR/DVD needs. With it hooked up to the VGA port, I have never noticed any lip-sync issues (that were not in the source). This makes sense, since the PC is doing all the scaling, and takes care of sending the audio out in sync with the video.

I have also never seen any macroblocking watching any DVD. Including Star Wars II. Image quality is phenomenal!

Setting up a HTPC can be a lot of work. It can also cost a fair amount. At this point I would not want to do it any other way. I highly recommend using a HTPC to drive these TVs. Well worth the cost. Well worth the time.

John


Interesting post.

I am getting my tv tommorow, and would like to try using an HTPC as well to see the difference in PQ. I dont know too much about all this video setup configurations yet, i do know alot about computers though. I am kinda confused though as to which would display a better picture ? I thought if i bought a good dvd player (sony dvp ns975) and used that it would display a much more detailed picture then hooking up a PC would.

My pc is a gaming pc. I have a Geforce 6800 GT with dvi out, s video out, and vga capabilities. Would this be a better choice over the sony ns975 ? Does the dvd player in the pc matter at all ? Also when using a pc to play dvd's what exactly would i do for sound ?

My pc is also a little loud, the fan is not silent. How far is your pc from the tv and do you use water cooling or normal fans ? I am really anxious to get my tv and am also worried about all this lip sync issue. I just want to set this up the best way i can and would be willing to go that extra mile to do so for the best PQ and zero lip sync.

Any help would be appreciated.

Not true! Unless 1/2 of what is on the 3 major networks (both cable and OTA) has serious, intermittent delay issues.

Seko just picked up my set because I had about a 50-50 chance of seeing anywhere from 100-500(!)ms delay during any HD show I might watch AND IT VARIED CONSIDERABLY DURING THE SHOW so no reasonable tinkering with a sound delay device could possibly fix it (i.e., you would have to keep changing the delay the entire time!).

I have not wanted to "hijack" the thread and that is why you will note I have only posted on this issue once or twice, but for folks to dismiss that this *could* be a problem on *some* sets or to imply that those of us that cannot fix it are either cheap (not paying $200 for a delay device) or dumb is just plain wrong. My set was inexcusably defective and I had to send it back or go nuts.
Hmm. Perhaps my set is the same but in this case my wife is going nuts :D

I am kinda confused though as to which would display a better picture ? I thought if i bought a good dvd player (sony dvp ns975) and used that it would display a much more detailed picture then hooking up a PC would.Here is a link to a thread about having our HLP5063 calibrated by SethS. He thought our PC did the best job he has seen. He just picked up a computer that he had built for the purpose, and he said that he will be interested to see if his "extra power house" PC does any better. It probably will.

SethS calibration and impression of one HTPC setup. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=548133)

Hello,

I'm thinking about buying a 6768, but I've a few questions that I don't believe have been answered. I've called samsung support, multiple times, and of course have gotten different answers to the same questions each time :p.

Anyways, do any of the inputs accept 1920x1080p, non-interlaced? I'm guessing the HDMI does not, but does the VGA?

If you play a game like quake3, do you notice any tv lag? Or if you simply open notepad and switch between typing and hitting backspace, do you notice any lag(get up close so you can tell easier)? If so or if not, then which input were you using and which resolution/refresh rate?

When I get a tv, I'll be using the PC on it 100% of the time, and 75% of that time will be playing twitch games like quake :).

Thanks.

p.s. i don't really care if there are no inputs that accept 1080p, as long as going from 1080i to 1080p doesn't cause lag

Interesting post.

I am getting my tv tommorow, and would like to try using an HTPC as well to see the difference in PQ. I dont know too much about all this video setup configurations yet, i do know alot about computers though. I am kinda confused though as to which would display a better picture ? I thought if i bought a good dvd player (sony dvp ns975) and used that it would display a much more detailed picture then hooking up a PC would

I cannot comment on the Sony ns975. I can only say, that via my HTPC I see a beautiful, jagged-free, macroblock-free image.


My pc is a gaming pc. I have a Geforce 6800 GT with dvi out, s video out, and vga capabilities. Would this be a better choice over the sony ns975 ? Does the dvd player in the pc matter at all ? Also when using a pc to play dvd's what exactly would i do for sound ?
I use a good quality VGA cable from my Geforce 5700LE right into the VGA port on the TV.

For sound, I have an old SB Live! card. I have the S/PDIF output of the Live! hooked up to my preamp. With this setup, I can listen to any kind of audio: DTS, DD5.1, PCM.

My pc is also a little loud, the fan is not silent. How far is your pc from the tv and do you use water cooling or normal fans ? I am really anxious to get my tv and am also worried about all this lip sync issue. I just want to set this up the best way i can and would be willing to go that extra mile to do so for the best PQ and zero lip sync.
My "frontend" machine has these parts:

80 Seagate hard drive.
3.2 GHz HT P4
Zalman CNPS7000B-CU CPU cooler
SeaSonic S12-330 330W Power Supply
Asus DVD-ROM drive.

I put this in a standard desktop case. I then drilled a ~90mm hole in the top, front of the case, and mounted a 90 panflo exhaust fan. I also drilled a ~90mm hole right above the CPU, and came up with a little ducting to feed cool air right to the Zalman CPU cooler.

With this setup, I have a very powerful machine, which runs quieter than the Samsung HL-R6168W TV that it is feeding video to! This machine has plenty of power to decode an HD MPEG2 stream and display it, stutter free.

My "backend" machine (with all the hard disks) is noisier, but it lives in another room...


Any help would be appreciated.

It took a bit of work, to get my system put together. I have been tinkering with this stuff for over a year, and the first 3 months were not fun. Now that it works, it is awesome!

I assume you know about this site:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/

John

who you callin Ron? Johny dice...

Im sure calling me a Troll will make all your teched out super Geek friends give you high fives after seeing your post.

Im sorry I insulted your precious swapsung... but I think I can safely question the engineering being a product when three generations of their sets still exihbit the same problems....

you can call it Terrific if you like...

There are no issues on this tv (non-dynamic memory issues, HDMI hw issues, pincushioning, DMD/etc. issues, regular A/V lag, variable audio lag per show/dvd, extreme blocking, no 3:2 pulldown for anything other than 480i), they are ALL source related. Sammy Engineers rule...

So now that I returned my HD950, and am waiting for my oppo, I actually checked (stupid me for taking "expert advice") and see that there is no digital input into the hlr. So with any DVI component you can' loopback digitally to any AVR and take advantage of what appears to be an audio delay in the hlr.
I will admit I am annoyed because it appears that the oppo suggestion which is all over this newgroup is bogus because DVI is simply not the way to go as a connector. HDMI is THE way to go. So now, even before I get the Oppo delivery I am gettong ready to shoot it back.
Net net.. in order to loopback audio digitally to the AVR, HDMI period, is required.

Anybody else having problems with their HLR6168w. I have had it for two weeks. My TV does not have a square picture. It is more than an 1/8" off on the top right compared to the cabinet. I also have company this weekend and wouldn't you know; my TV will not even turn on! I have tried everything, but still no picture. Any fancy ideas?

I have called customer service and they believe it is a lamp issue. They gave me a number to call for local service. Not quite what I expected for the amount of money paid for the set!

Hello,

I'm thinking about buying a 6768, but I've a few questions that I don't believe have been answered. I've called samsung support, multiple times, and of course have gotten different answers to the same questions each time :p.

Anyways, do any of the inputs accept 1920x1080p, non-interlaced? I'm guessing the HDMI does not, but does the VGA?

If you play a game like quake3, do you notice any tv lag? Or if you simply open notepad and switch between typing and hitting backspace, do you notice any lag(get up close so you can tell easier)? If so or if not, then which input were you using and which resolution/refresh rate?

When I get a tv, I'll be using the PC on it 100% of the time, and 75% of that time will be playing twitch games like quake :).

Thanks.

p.s. i don't really care if there are no inputs that accept 1080p, as long as going from 1080i to 1080p doesn't cause lag


VGA is the only input that takes 1080p.

I play Half-Life mods (TFC and NS) and I do not notice any lag. I'm using 1920x1080@60Hz.

So now that I returned my HD950, and am waiting for my oppo, I actually checked (stupid me for taking "expert advice") and see that there is no digital input into the hlr. So with any DVI component you can' loopback digitally to any AVR and take advantage of what appears to be an audio delay in the hlr.
I will admit I am annoyed because it appears that the oppo suggestion which is all over this newgroup is bogus because DVI is simply not the way to go as a connector. HDMI is THE way to go. So now, even before I get the Oppo delivery I am gettong ready to shoot it back. in order to loopback audio digitally to the AVR, HDMI period, is required.

Well don't get too mad at the Oppo yet because even if it had an HDMI output, the TV won't let you input audio/video on HDMI and then output the 5.1 audio over the toslink... From what I understnad, the most you can do with this method is to send a stereo PCM signal over the optical from the TV. You'll be stuck sending the audio directly to your receiver with any DVD player you get.

Well I guess I should rephrase my DVD Player question. Basically I currently don't own a DVD player of my own, I'd settled on the Denon DVD-3910 for it's solid feature set and connectivity options, however people have posted that it doesn't co-operate overly well with the TV in question, so basically I'm looking for the best bang for my buck and something stable and solid to last me for a while.

- D

Is it possible that one of our anti Samsung people keeps signing up under a new name and ask the same question about 1080p just to annoy us??

Get the tar and feathers out. ;-)

Well I guess I should rephrase my DVD Player question. Basically I currently don't own a DVD player of my own, I'd settled on the Denon DVD-3910 for it's solid feature set and connectivity options, however people have posted that it doesn't co-operate overly well with the TV in question, so basically I'm looking for the best bang for my buck and something stable and solid to last me for a while.

- D

Daphoid, UCSB has a lot of good information about DVDs on Post #4 on this thread.

just for everyone's information . i have a bad hdmi 2 port. getting a relacement board within a week. so parts are in stock.

Anybody else having problems with their HLR6168w. I have had it for two weeks. My TV does not have a square picture. It is more than an 1/8" off on the top right compared to the cabinet. I also have company this weekend and wouldn't you know; my TV will not even turn on! I have tried everything, but still no picture. Any fancy ideas?

I have called customer service and they believe it is a lamp issue. They gave me a number to call for local service. Not quite what I expected for the amount of money paid for the set!

Three ideas:

1) Unplug the TV for a few minutes and try again.

2) Take lamp assembly out and then put it back in making sure all contacts are solid.

3) Check that the lamps assembly is securely plugged into power source.

So now that I returned my HD950, and am waiting for my oppo, I actually checked (stupid me for taking "expert advice") and see that there is no digital input into the hlr. So with any DVI component you can' loopback digitally to any AVR and take advantage of what appears to be an audio delay in the hlr.
I will admit I am annoyed because it appears that the oppo suggestion which is all over this newgroup is bogus because DVI is simply not the way to go as a connector. HDMI is THE way to go. So now, even before I get the Oppo delivery I am gettong ready to shoot it back.
Net net.. in order to loopback audio digitally to the AVR, HDMI period, is required.

Rich ... the OPPO contains probably to most control over audio of any of the five players that I have tested. You can connect it to your TV via the DVI RCA input jacks and control the signal coming out of the OPPO. The OPPO does have an up to 50 ms audio delay in the player which will help with sync and OPPO is currently looking at increasing this to 100 ms - 120 ms based on a discussion that I had with them last week.

The only player that I have found with a working 100 ms + AV delay is the Panasonic S97, which I am currently looking at (I have not fully tested the delay function as I write this!!!). The picture on the S97 is similar to the OPPO (also with occassional macroblocking) and has an HDMI output.

I just received my new HLR6168. I have a couple of audio questions/issues related to the Digital Optical Audio Output that I'm hoping someone can answer.

1. The Sound Menu has greyed out the "Digital Optical Audio" selection so I cannot select it (it's default setting is PCM). Should this be enabled (selectable) all the time?


kenjo - Did you ever get a response to this question? I have the same issue. Regardless of the input, the Digital Optical Audio is selected as PCM and greyed out. I have an HR10-250 connected via HDMI with a toslink cable connected to my receiver.

Anybody else experiencing this?

I see that the Samsung HL-R6768W is out. Has anyone taken this 1080p for a test drive yet?

I'm thinking this is gonna be my set!

kenjo - Did you ever get a response to this question? I have the same issue. Regardless of the input, the Digital Optical Audio is selected as PCM and greyed out. I have an HR10-250 connected via HDMI with a toslink cable connected to my receiver.

Anybody else experiencing this?Yes.

Imagine the Samsung engineers and GUI designers talking about the fact that they can't imagine why anyone would ever want to input a DD/DTS signal into the tv. Because of course, anyone with that kind of signal will probably just route it straight to their AVR (all the while not realizing or ignoring the potential solution of using the audio input to the tv and to sidestep video delay problems). So ... if nobody can get DD/DTS audio into the tv over HDMI, why would they need to output it over toslink?

Solution: Disable it on all sources except for OTA or CableCard, where you actually can get DD/DTS into the tv without a baseball bat and an engineering degree.

Yes.

Imagine the Samsung engineers and GUI designers talking about the fact that they can't imagine why anyone would ever want to input a DD/DTS signal into the tv. Because of course, anyone with that kind of signal will probably just route it straight to their AVR (all the while not realizing or ignoring the potential solution of using the audio input to the tv and to sidestep video delay problems). So ... if nobody can get DD/DTS audio into the tv over HDMI, why would they need to output it over toslink?

Solution: Disable it on all sources except for OTA or CableCard, where you actually can get DD/DTS into the tv without a baseball bat and an engineering degree.

Yes, then think about those same engineers introducing so much video delay through their processing that the audio from the source is no longer in sync. And technically, it's variable, so a straight 75ms delay at the AVR doesn't really do it.

If they had half a brain, they'd let me pass through the digital audio portion of the HDMI signal so my audio and video remained in sync no matter what absurd delays they introduce on the TV.

A for what its worth test:

I performed a little test today that probably means absolutely nothing and if it does I can't figure out what it would be.

I took the Pirates of the Caribbean DVD which I have been using as an audio synch problem disc in the first 4 chapters with my SS HD950 DVD player. I timed the period it took to get to the end of Chapter 4(?). I think it was 36 minutes exactly which is what the time said on the counter. (I may be off by the time but thats not the important factor here). This device, as you followed my above threads, has about a .5 to 1 second delay in the video from audio for the first part of this movie on my 5668W.

I then did the same test on my other DVD player that does not exhibit the sound delay and found the real time to be 2 seconds longer than both the time value on the counter as well as what the SS HD950 ran at.

Again I doubt this means anything but ...

That's a bummer. I especially liked this TV based on my experience with the HLM507W and the fact that I thought I could use as an HDMI switching device for my HDTivo and DVD's digital audio into a single optical input on my receiver. I guess I have to plop down $3000 for the Denon AVR4806.

Do you know if there's a discrete remote code for PIP SWAP? I don't understand why they don't have that button instead of the DNIE Demo button on the remote. Seems silly to even have PIP if you can't swap audio. Another suggestion would be to have a Picture Mode button (to eliminate all the menus) instead of the worthless DNIE button. Maybe Samsung should have done a focus group of prior owners.

They probably did, but none of those owners were on an AV forum.

I've added the Panasonic DVD-S97 to my collection of DVD player reviews in POST #4 of this thread. A copy of the POST is below:

========================

:) DVD Player Compatibility Testing Results

I have taken a look at the OPPO OPDV971H, Samsung DVD-HD950, Panasonic DVD-S97 and Sony DVP-NS975V. I hope to continue my testing with other players and hope to be able to report on the Pioneer DV59-AVi or it’s successor the DV79-AVi.

The intent of my work was not to document every feature of these players. You can check the user’s manuals and manufacturer web sites for that information. I also can not test the players in the manner that Secrets of Home Theater can. So I would recommend that you review their work at this address: CLICK HERE ( http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all) . Please note, based on my testing, both the OPPO and Sony reviews are outdated on the Secrets site because they are based on earlier versions of the players or their firmware. My intent is also not to duplicate or replace the thousands of comments on avsForum by members in the OPPO, Sony, and Samsung threads.

So what am I trying to do? Quite simply, I am trying to see how these players operate with the new Samsung 1080p DLP’s and by extension how they might work with the many new 1080p DLP HDTV’s coming out during the next few months. I was trying to find the best one or two players for my own HT setup. I also hope that my work will help you narrow the field down to the players that will match your own unique HT setup. You still have to do your own research, but hopefully this work will get you started.

Why did I start with these three players? Well, these three players are based on three different chip technologies. These technologies include Genesis Faroujda (OPPO), Zoran (Samsung), and Sony proprietary (Sony). I still hope to get a chance to look at the Pioneer players, but I am still working on that as I write this summary.

I was looking for compatibility with 1080p HDTV’s and the Samsung’s in particular. I defined compatibility to include both picture quality (PQ) and other features designed to make up for deficiencies in the Samsung 1080p sets. These additional features included an AV sync function (to overcome any lip sync issues) and flexible audio control to allow sending audio to both the TV and an AV receiver (giving you the option of using either setup). The ability to route the right sound to the TV or a receiver is required because the Samsung can not pass through DD/DTS 5.1 audio via HDMI.

What were the results of my observations? I can recommend the OPPO, Panasonic and SONY. But, unfortunately I can not recommend the Samsung at this point in time. Please read my comments on each player below to understand which player is the best match to your own HT environment and viewing preferences.

The DVD experience on the new 1080p Samsungs is exceptional. There were some initial questions about whether movies would look better or worst on the new 1080p sets. In my opinion, movies look significantly better on the new 1080p sets than on my Samsung HLN 720p set.

All of my tests were done on my HLR5668W using STANDARD picture mode with the TV’s picture mode set to their defaults. DVE was used to setup each DVD player and all picture settings were fine tuned on the DVD player. ONLY the DVI / HDMI output on each player and 1080i was tested on this initial set of tests.

If there is interest, I can post photos of the Sony/OPPO/Panasonic remotes or units.

========

DVD Player: OPPO
Chip Technology: Genesis FLI-2310 Deinterlacer, Mediatek MPEG decoder
Firmware: 29 June 2005
List Price: $199
Web Site: http://www.oppodigital.com/

Overall Performance:
>HLRxxx8W Compatibility (Low, Med, High): High
>HLRxxx8W Performance Impression (Low, Med, High): High

Output Resolution Tested: 1080i
Other Resolutions Offered (via HDMI): 480p, 720p

Basic Tests:
> Blacker-Than-Black: Passed.
> Macroblocking: Yes, but generally not present or not significant.

Important Features to Enhance HLRxxx8W Performance:
1. A/V sync capability (up to 50 ms, 10 ms increments). It would have been nice if this delay could have been up to 100 or 120 ms.
2. Ability to send audio to TV via RCA cables *AND* send DD/DTS to your receiver via digital cable. This allows you to use either your TV audio or the receiver audio without making any adjustments to your DVD player. Excellent control over signals going to TV and receiver.


Nice Features:
1. Clear, sharp, nice picture. This player has an exceptional picture, only degraded occasionally by macroblocking.
2. Good build quality (nice front panel display, nice finish, gold plated inputs). The player has a nice simple, streamlined two tone look.
3. Clear, easy to read setup menus. This player offers exceptional granularity on settings (offering up to 20 steps on some). In addition, this player offered more control over picture and sound than any other player reviewed. The OPPO offered control over settings that other players did not allow you to control. Please review manual for all setup menu options.
4. The player has a nice very readable blue front panel display plus many front panel display control options. In addition, the player has blue accent lights for all control buttons. I really like this feature because it allows me to identify and operate the player in my cabinet in low light! They can be turned off in the setup menu if you find them distracting.
6. Good controls for navigating in movies.
7. The remote is light and small making it easy to use. Some buttons are small and hard to read in low light, no backlighting. But, all important functions (and many unique, nice functions) are available and would be easy to transfer to any universal remote.
8. The player includes a quality DVI – HDMI cable that performed well.

Problem Areas:
1. Occasional macroblocking.
2. No disc play position memory. This is a convenient feature offered on the other players.
2. Audio / video sync setting only goes to 50 ms. It would have been nice if it went higher, perhaps to 100 ms or 120 ms.


Comments:

I really like this DVD player. It is one of the highest rated DVD players ever on Secrets of Home Theater. It offers an exceptional sharp, clear picture that is compelling and addictive. The picture is only degraded by occasional macroblocking. Macroblocking seems to be a problem with all of the Genesis FLI-23xx based players, including Denon’s players and the Panasonic S97 (see notes 1 & 2 below). This player is an enthusiast’s player in that it offers comprehensive setup control for picture and sound. You will have more control with this player over your final viewing experience than with other competing players.

Since most people buying this player will be ordering it via the internet (http://www.oppodigital.com/), I would like to briefly comment on how it is shipped. It is shipped double boxed in a nice box. It is well protected during shipment by Styrofoam packaging. The player is wrapped in a blue OPPO sleeve that is soft and impressed me. It shouts we care about this player and your ownership experience. Nice job OPPO.



(1) To minimize macroblocking care should be taken to setup the player and TV correctly.
(2) I still hope to test the Denon and Panasonic players to determine the degree of macroblocking on these players.



=======


DVD Player: Sony DVP-NS975V
Chip Technology: Sony Proprietary CDX9304
Firmware: 1.90 (procedure to check firmware level in service menu ... with the power off to the unit; press TOP MENU,CLEAR,then POWER on the remote.)
List Price: $299

Overall Performance:
>HLRxxx8W Compatibility (Low, Med, High): High
>HLRxxx8W Performance Impression (Low, Med, High): High

Output Resolution Tested: 1080i
Other Resolutions Offered (via HDMI): 480i, 480p, 720p

Basic Tests:
> Blacker-Than-Black: Passed (manual picture settings)
> Macroblocking: None

Important Features to Enhance HLRxxx8W Performance:
1. Ability to send PCM digital audio to TV over HDMI *AND* send DD/DTS to your receiver. This allows you to use either your TV audio or the receiver audio without making any adjustments to your DVD player.
2. Six PQ modes (standard, dynamic 1, dynamic 2, cinema 1, cinema 2, manual) that are accessible through a single button on the remote. Only manual is adjustable. I really like this PQ feature. Think of this feature like the picture modes in your DLP (ie. movie, standard, custom, and dynamic).
3. A/V sync capability (up to 100 ms, 10 ms increments). This feature does not work if you output Dolby Digital and/or DTS to your receiver ... so it will not solve the sync problems between the TV and receiver.

Nice Features:
1. Sharp, nice picture. Low levels of video noise.
2. Quality look, build (aluminum front panel, gold plated inputs).
3. Clear, easy to read setup menus.
4. Organized, easy to use control menu that is accessible during DVD play. These menus are large and clearly labeled. Plus a simple, elapsed time (and remaining time) only menu for quick checks of where you are in a movie. Nice.
5. Many front panel display brightness control options allowing you to tailor the visual look of the unit’s display to virtually any desired mode of operation.
6. Instant replay, instant skip forward. Plus scan back / forward.
7. Manual picture settings (brightness, ….).
8. Placement of HDMI input and digital audio connections makes access easy in cabinet.
9. HDMI output supports 12 bit connection. 12 bit/108 MHz internal video processing.
10. 40 disc play position memory.
11. The player has a single button function called Picture Navigator that brings up 9 scenes at a time and lets you branch directly to the scene. Nice, like a built in chapter select from the DVD’s own menu. Unique.
12. Nice remote. Some buttons are small and hard to read in low light, no backlighting. But, all important functions (and many unique, nice functions) are available and would be easy to transfer to any universal remote.

Problem Areas:
1. Several users have reported reliability problems with EARLIER versions of this player. A model revision and firmware upgrades have since been implemented. But, buyers will have $250 - $325 (plus cables) invested in this player and will expect reliability.
2. Available in silver only, this player makes a strong style statement that may or may not match your other equipment.
3. Not really a problem, but the player does not include a HDMI cable … so you will have to buy one. Other players (OPPO, Samsung) include a cable with the player.
4. AV alignment (sync) feature does not work on dolby digital and DTS being output to your receiver, only with PCM output. This is a disappointment.


Comments:

I really liked this DVD player. It offered a huge number of convenient and thoughtful features that gave the user excellent control over navigation, configuration, and viewing. The player exhibited no macroblocking and extremely low video noise levels. This resulted in a smooth, sharp, and stable picture. Secrets of Home Theater rated this (or an earlier version of this player) lower and you may want to read the their comments before making a purchasing decision (aspects of the review seem outdated to me). I’m not a DVD player testing facility, but the picture looked really nice to me. The convenience features on this player can not be beat.

One final note, this player offers 480i output over HDMI. I have done a little initial testing on the capability, but I’m not ready to report in it at this point in time. It is a unique feature.



========


DVD Player: Samsung DVD-HD950
Firmware: n/a
List Price: $249

Overall Performance:
>HLRxxx8W Compatibility (Low, Med, High): Med
>HLRxxx8W Performance Impression (Low, Med, High): Low/Med

Output Resolution Tested: 1080i
Other Resolutions Offered (via HDMI): 480p, 720p

Basic Tests:
> Blacker-Than-Black: No
> Macroblocking: None

Important Features to Enhance HLRxxx8W Performance:
1. Samsung’s Anynet is a nice way to integrate the control and operation of the DVD player with the TV. I liked this feature.

Nice Features:
1. Manual picture settings (but, basic compared to other players).
2. Organized, easy to use reporting and control menu that is accessible during DVD play. This menu is large and clearly labeled.
3. Many display brightness control options allowing you to tailor the visual look of the units front display to virtually any desired mode of operation.
4. Instant replay, instant skip forward.
5. Nice comprehensive remote. Some buttons are small and hard to read in low light, no backlighting. But, all important functions are available and would be easy to transfer to any universal remote.
6. HDMI-HDMI cable, HDMI-DVI cable, and an AnyNet Cable are included.

Problem Areas:
1. PQ was not as good as other units tested. Seemed not as sharp, rougher. Others on the forum have called it muddy or dull. It was not acceptable. This was a surprise to me because I had viewed the player at Magnolia HiFi a few weeks ago and it had seemed nice there. I learned NEVER try to evaluate a DVD player in a store! It takes careful setup and hours of viewing to form competent opinions.
2. White LCD front panel was cosmetically unattractive and hard to read. It is worthless unless you are right next to the player, but the on-screen information function is nice and can be used instead. This is stark contrast to my two year old Samsung DVD-HD931, which had an excellent display and the other players in this comparison that had displays that were readable from quite a distance.
3. Only one way to set audio out. So either the TV can get PCM and work or your receiver can get DD/DTS and work. If sending DD/DTS to receiver you get annoying HDMI audio error messages on your display. This problem totally amazes me, it was present in the 2004 models and would be obvious with any product testing at all.
4. Player seemed cheaper than the others in the test (weight, connectors, display, plastic front panel, indicator lamps), but the black color minimized the cosmetic problems. Player could seem out of place cosmetically if you have other expensive components.
5. Player did not remember settings, such as the screen messages off setting and LCD display off setting making it impossible to create a work around for other problems.
6. No audio-video sync function. This was offered by some of the other players in the comparison. AV sync is a requirement so if the player does not do it you should consider a receiver with the capability or an external sync solution.


Comments:

I think everyone knows that I am a big Samsung enthusiast, so it hurts to say that I did not like this player. Actually, after a week, I really started to dislike it. Compared to the performance and features included on the other players in this test, it seemed like an incomplete engineering prototype … a stripped down basic player. I could go into more detail about this player, but it would be waste of your time reading it and my time writing it.

=======


DVD Player: Panasonic DVD-S97
Chip Technology: Genesis FLI-2310 Deinterlacer
Firmware: 86H362 July 2005 Mfg Date, Revised S97 (procedure to check firmware level in service menu ... with the power on to the unit; press at same time PAUSE + EJECT and then 7 on the remote.)
List Price: $299

Overall Performance:
>HLRxxx8W Compatibility (Low, Med, High): High
>HLRxxx8W Performance Impression (Low, Med, High): High

Output Resolution Tested: 1080i
Other Resolutions Offered (via HDMI): 480p, 720p

Basic Tests:
> Blacker-Than-Black: Passed
> Macroblocking: Yes, but generally not present or not significant.

Important Features to Enhance HLRxxx8W Performance:
1. Ability to send PCM digital audio to TV over HDMI *AND* send DD/DTS to your receiver. This allows you to use either your TV audio or the receiver audio without making any adjustments to your DVD player.
2. Five PQ modes that are accessible through a single button on the remote. I really like this PQ feature. Think of this feature like the picture modes in your DLP (ie. movie, standard, custom, and dynamic).
3. A/V sync capability (up to 100 ms, 10 ms increments). I did not get as much testing time with this feature, so you should probably confirm that it works over the optical / coax digital outputs correctly. It appeared to be working.

Nice Features:
1. Sharp, nice picture. Unfortunately, macroblocking is present. The player that I was evaluating was the revised version of the S97 with the latest firmware. Macroblocking appeared to be very comparable to what is seen on the latest version of the OPPO. I believe both players have integrated the latest Genesis firmware. This has yielded significant improvements over earlier versions of this player.
2. Quality look, build. I like the style of this player. It has a large blue light above the DVD tray that makes changing disc’s convenient … nice feature. If you don’t like lights on your player it can be turned off.. The players operational buttons were easy to use because of their position and angle. The player also had three LED lights indication HDMI operational status and other items. Nice.
3. Clear, easy to read setup menus. Crisp nicely designed setup and operational menus. This player seems nice and refined in terms of it’s control menus.
4. Organized, easy to use control menu that is accessible during DVD play. These menus are large and clearly labeled. This player offered extensive control in it’s operational menu. Plus a simple, elapsed time (and remaining time) only menu for quick checks of where you are in a movie. Nice.
5. Many front panel display brightness control options allowing you to tailor the visual look of the unit’s display to virtually any desired mode of operation. This player had the largest, nicest display of any of the players that I reviewed. I really like this feature. I could easily read the display from my normal viewing distance.
6. Instant replay. Plus scan back / forward.
7. Extensive manual picture settings. Brightness, contrast, color, hue, gamma, several noise reduction options. Very comprehensive and very nice. These settings were in addition to extensive configuration options in it’s setup menu. Nice.
8. All menus (setup, operational) were exceptionally nice graphics and very clear and easy to read. The unit had a refined, polished look.
8. Placement of HDMI input and digital audio connections makes access easy in cabinet.
9. HDMI output supports 10 or 11 bit connection. I haven’t completed my research in this area, but this design supports more than the 8 bit format on DVI based players. But, please remember all DVD’s are encoded in 8 bits.
10. 5 disc play position memory.
11. Nice remote. No backlighting. But, all important functions (and many unique, nice functions) are available and would be easy to transfer to any universal remote.
12. Player includes a HDMI – HDMI cable. It is a light weight cable, but will get up setup and operational.

Problem Areas:
1. Macroblocking - video noise: Unfortunately this player, like all other Genesis FL2310 based players reviewed, exhibits marcoblocking on the Samsung 1080p sets. But, the problems are generally not visible or significant. The macroblocking was comparable to what is visible on the OPPO (which uses the same Genesis FL2310 chip).


Comments:

I really liked this DVD player. In terms of it’s style, display, lighted DVD, tray, and easy to use buttons it was a nice unit physically. The unit also has nicely executed and extensive setup and operational menus. It offered more setup and operational control features than any other player in these tests. It offered a huge number of convenient and thoughtful features that gave the user excellent control over navigation, configuration, and viewing. This player has a smooth, sharp, and stable picture. It is only degraded occasionally by macroblocking. In most movies this will not be visible, but in a macroblocking torture test like “Master and Commander” it will be an issue. The picture and macroblocking is very similar to the OPPO. Both the OPPO and the S97 are very highly rated on Secrets of Home Theater. If you are comparing the two Genesis players to the Sony DVP-NS975V on Secrets of Home Theater, you will notice the Sony got a substantially lower rating. This was because the Sony did not pass BTB. Please be aware that the 975 (firmware 1.90) passes BTB in Manual, Cinema 1, and Cinema 2 modes so it’s rating would be higher. The 975 did fail my chroma tests, but I did not see any problems with this flaw in over 60 hours of DVD video reviewed. Back to the Panasonic, the convenience features on this player can not be beat and are as complete as the feature rich Sony 975.

:)

Can anyone help clarify the differences between the following two Samsung models (I will list what I think the major differences are):

-HLN5065W- no tuner included, older model with slower mirrors, slightly more dimensional depth to cabinet???

-HLR5065R-includes tuner, faster 2.6" color wheel, 14" depth???

anything else I am missing. Is it worth to do to the HLR


Also, I found that one of the retail web sites has the HNL in a refurbished model for almost $500 less then a new model. It seems that purchasing a refurbished model saves lots of $$$ and they are warranted........any thoughts



thanks

Can anyone help clarify the differences between the following two Samsung models (I will list what I think the major differences are):

-HLN5065W- no tuner included, older model with slower mirrors, slightly more dimensional depth to cabinet???

-HLR5065R-includes tuner, faster 2.6" color wheel, 14" depth???

anything else I am missing. Is it worth to do to the HLR


Also, I found that one of the retail web sites has the HNL in a refurbished model for almost $500 less then a new model. It seems that purchasing a refurbished model saves lots of $$$ and they are warranted........any thoughts



thanks

If you are considering buying a Samsung DLP, you should carefully study the following POST:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4954868#post4954868

The HLN5065W is a 2003 50" Samsung DLP. HD2 DLP chip, 1000:1 contrast ratio. Unless you are getting one heck of a deal (<=$1000) look at the 2005 models. But, if you are getting a great deal, than this is a nice entry level set that will be an OK place to start. I own an HLN set, it is just that there has been a lot of progress since 2003.

There is no HLR5065R model ... so you need to check that model number. All of the 2005 models (ie. HLR) are described in the link above.

Good luck.

ADDED: Remember the lamp in the refurb models may not be new and if will need to be replaced sooner for a cost of about $300.

-HLN5065W- no tuner included, older model with slower mirrors, slightly more dimensional depth to cabinet???

-HLR5065R-includes tuner, faster 2.6" color wheel, 14" depth???The HLN models are from 2002. The HLP models are 2004. You need to check the first message in this thread for information about the 2005 models.

2005 HLR Models (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=493443)

Is it worth to do to the HLRThat depends on how much you pay and how trustworthy the dealer is. If it's COSTCO and the set was a HLP then you would be OK at a $500 discount.

I found that one of the retail web sites has the HNL in a refurbished model for almost $500 less then a new model. It seems that purchasing a refurbished model saves lots of $$$ and they are warranted........any thoughts
Stay away. It's a bad price and probably dishonest to boot.

That's a bummer. I especially liked this TV based on my experience with the HLM507W and the fact that I thought I could use as an HDMI switching device for my HDTivo and DVD's digital audio into a single optical input on my receiver. I guess I have to plop down $3000 for the Denon AVR4806.

Do you know if there's a discrete remote code for PIP SWAP? I don't understand why they don't have that button instead of the DNIE Demo button on the remote. Seems silly to even have PIP if you can't swap audio. Another suggestion would be to have a Picture Mode button (to eliminate all the menus) instead of the worthless DNIE button. Maybe Samsung should have done a focus group of prior owners.

Here is a product that can be used to solve both the AV sync issue and give you a single digital input into your receiver ...

http://www.felston.com/dd540/index.htm

It accepts two digital inputs and can output either one or two. So it can handle your HD/Tivo and DVD player. At $230 ... it is much cheaper than the $3000 receiver, if you don't need it.

kenjo - Did you ever get a response to this question? I have the same issue. Regardless of the input, the Digital Optical Audio is selected as PCM and greyed out. I have an HR10-250 connected via HDMI with a toslink cable connected to my receiver.

Anybody else experiencing this?

YES.... I mentioned this in a previous post. I have the HLR 6178W and have it connected via the L/R analog audio cables. I asked if the HDMI solves the greyed out problem. Apparently it doesn't. Thanks for your post.

Jerry

Rich ... the OPPO contains probably to most control over audio of any of the five players that I have tested. You can connect it to your TV via the DVI RCA input jacks and control the signal coming out of the OPPO. The OPPO does have an up to 50 ms audio delay in the player which will help with sync and OPPO is currently looking at increasing this to 100 ms - 120 ms based on a discussion that I had with them last week. .

So first, let me make contrition (apology) for my posted annoyance last night concerning my eureka moment when I realized that there is no way to loop DD/DTS/etc from a source thru the xx8w back to the AVR. I appreciate the experts who put so much time into helping everyone else while taking care of our mutual home theatre addiction; certainly UCSB; you are at the top of the list.

With all of the shortcomings of this set (and there are definately some - but hey even Superman had weaknesses!) this set is still a mindblower.
I am actually going to find some time this weekend to look at some native 1080p content via the vga input (I believe I have this right???) and expect this to be eye-opening. Maybe MS is right and the computer is going to become the way that we access the brave new world of HD.

If anyone saw the Eagle 175th farewell concert on NBCHD last week with an AVR you know what I mean. Any 720p/1080i set is so history, now. Perhaps the best HD proof-of-concept (for the non-sports fan) that I've yet to see. It showed where TV is going when content providers show the necessary care in delivering first class HD content.
My prediction; don't get into the concert hall business or movie theatre business

Yes.

Imagine the Samsung engineers and GUI designers talking about the fact that they can't imagine why anyone would ever want to input a DD/DTS signal into the tv. Because of course, anyone with that kind of signal will probably just route it straight to their AVR (all the while not realizing or ignoring the potential solution of using the audio input to the tv and to sidestep video delay problems). So ... if nobody can get DD/DTS audio into the tv over HDMI, why would they need to output it over toslink?

Solution: Disable it on all sources except for OTA or CableCard, where you actually can get DD/DTS into the tv without a baseball bat and an engineering degree.

I am confused by your reply. Were you being sarcastic with your "So......?"

Disable what? How does over the air or cable card solve the problem? We are obviously trying to use the TV to sync audio.

So first, let me make contrition (apology) for my posted annoyance last night concerning my eureka moment when I realized that there is no way to loop DD/DTS/etc from a source thru the xx8w back to the AVR.


There is no reason to loop DD/DTS from a source thru xx8w. You should
connect it straight to the AVR. The optical out is for DD when
you are using the cable card feature and the TV then passes the bit
stream to your AVR.

It is also unnecessary to support 5.1 DD/DTS over HDMI to the TV
since the speakers in the set are not like a Yamaha YSP-1, they are
only stereo.

There is no single TV set I know of that does either of the above.

I see that the Samsung HL-R6768W is out. Has anyone taken this 1080p for a test drive yet?

I'm thinking this is gonna be my set!

I've had my 6768 for a week. I have a SA8300 STB (Cablevision) connected via HDMI and audio connected via digital coax to my AVR. I also have an old Pioneer 525 DVD player connected via component and audo connected via optical to my AVR. The STB is set to output 1080i. The DVD player outputs 480i.

My experience so far has been problem free. The only problem I had was with a bad HDMI cable which I replaced. Those symptoms were either the message "weak or no signal" or a picture with green tint and red blotches. They are now gone with the new cable.

The HD PQ is stunning. My wife will actually watch part of a baseball or football game just to witness the PQ. With regard to lip sync, except for an occasional out of sync with some programs on one of the sports channels, I've had no issues. CBS, NBC, ABC, INHD, WBHD, PBSHD, and ESPNHD have no lip sync issues. I've watched a few DVDs-Star Wars, Star Trek, Raiders of the Lost Ark. No lip sync issues there either. The DVD PQ is good, but not as good as the HD channels on the STB. I guess a newer DVD player would improve that...perhaps for Christmas.

If anyone saw the Eagle 175th farewell concert on NBCHD last week with an AVR you know what I mean. Any 720p/1080i set is so history, now. Perhaps the best HD proof-of-concept (for the non-sports fan) that I've yet to see. It showed where TV is going when content providers show the necessary care in delivering first class HD content.
My prediction; don't get into the concert hall business or movie theatre business

I too watched the Eagles concert on NBCHD and in 5.1. While not Huge Eagle fans (I like some of their songs), my wife and I were blown away by this broadcast. We thought we had better "seats" than anyone at the concert. ;)

I've had my 6768 for a week. I have a SA8300 STB (Cablevision) connected via HDMI and audio connected via digital coax to my AVR. I also have an old Pioneer 525 DVD player connected via component and audo connected via optical to my AVR. The STB is set to output 1080i. The DVD player outputs 480i.

My experience so far has been problem free. The only problem I had was with a bad HDMI cable which I replaced. Those symptoms were either the message "weak or no signal" or a picture with green tint and red blotches. They are now gone with the new cable.

The HD PQ is stunning. My wife will actually watch part of a baseball or football game just to witness the PQ. With regard to lip sync, except for an occasional out of sync with some programs on one of the sports channels, I've had no issues. CBS, NBC, ABC, INHD, WBHD, PBSHD, and ESPNHD have no lip sync issues. I've watched a few DVDs-Star Wars, Star Trek, Raiders of the Lost Ark. No lip sync issues there either. The DVD PQ is good, but not as good as the HD channels on the STB. I guess a newer DVD player would improve that...perhaps for Christmas.

High-def DVD is going to blow our minds on these sets - we could get HD DVD
by Christmas via the $999 m.s.r.p. Toshiba player and 100 co-released DVDs...

There is no reason to loop DD/DTS from a source thru xx8w. You should
connect it straight to the AVR. The optical out is for DD when
you are using the cable card feature and the TV then passes the bit
stream to your AVR.

It is also unnecessary to support 5.1 DD/DTS over HDMI to the TV
since the speakers in the set are not like a Yamaha YSP-1, they are
only stereo.

There is no single TV set I know of that does either of the above.

Well, it appears that there is an audio sync of some type inside the xx8w; clearly if you do a side by side audio comparision listening to both AVR and tv, the audio from the tv is delayed and very close to the video frame, as many have reported. So, wouldnt it be nice to be able to take advantage of that by looping back the audio thru the tv to the AVR...

Well, it appears that there is an audio sync of some type inside the xx8w; clearly if you do a side by side audio comparision listening to both AVR and tv, the audio from the tv is delayed and very close to the video frame, as many have reported. So, wouldnt it be nice to be able to take advantage of that by looping back the audio thru the tv to the AVR...

If there were we would see it on the Samsung specs since this would
a big selling feature, i.e. NEW AUTO SYNCH in xxx8w DLP sets...

I believe what is going is that Samsung also sucks timewise
for audio processing and this decreases the time differential
between the video and the audio so the apparent lip sync
"feature" is completely accidental.

I am confused by your reply. Were you being sarcastic with your "So......?"

Disable what? How does over the air or cable card solve the problem? We are obviously trying to use the TV to sync audio.Sorry. I was a little slap happy last night. Yes, I was being a bit sarcastic about Samsung's possible train of thought regarding the digital audio out setting.

What I was saying was that I don't believe that the digital audio out setting being greyed out is a problem. I think it was designed to be disabled for HDMI because they knew that you couldn't input anything butPCM over HDMI into the tv. What I should have said more clearly about OTA or CC is that those are the only known routes over which you can actually get DD/DTS audio into the tv ... therefore, I'd bet that with those sources, the digital audio out setting would be enabled.

I haven't confirmed this, as I use neither OTA or CC ... just my theory.

If there were we would see it on the Samsung specs since this would
a big selling feature, i.e. NEW AUTO SYNCH in xxx8w DLP sets...

I believe what is going is that Samsung also sucks timewise
for audio processing and this decreases the time differential
between the video and the audio so the apparent lip sync
"feature" is completely accidental.

Even the HL-P models can delay the audio through the TV speakers to match the video. The service menus even allow for adjusting the delay. It is not new or unintentional.

Unfortunately when you send DD to an external processor, the TV can't do anything about that so you need a processor that can create similar audio delay if you are having sync problems.

Even the HL-P models can delay the audio through the TV speakers to match the video. The service menus even allow for adjusting the delay. It is not new or unintentional.

Unfortunately when you send DD to an external processor, the TV can't do anything about that so you need a processor that can create similar audio delay if you are having sync problems.

So is the default a set delay interval or is stated in some other manner?

Even the HL-P models can delay the audio through the TV speakers to match the video. The service menus even allow for adjusting the delay. It is not new or unintentional.

Unfortunately when you send DD to an external processor, the TV can't do anything about that so you need a processor that can create similar audio delay if you are having sync problems.

That's good to know - thanks - but its not "auto sync" right? its a fixed delay...

High-def DVD is going to blow our minds on these sets - we could get HD DVD
by Christmas via the $999 m.s.r.p. Toshiba player and 100 co-released DVDs...

HD DVD launch Delayed to 2006 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=576187)

HD DVD launch Delayed to 2006 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=576187)

Sh!t - there goes Christmas :-)

Sh!t - there goes Christmas :-)
Well maybe the Christmas is right, but 2006. :)

With all the talk about the 1080p limitation on the HDMI input I'm curious if anyone has made a comparison of a 1080i input via VGA versus component versus HDMI from the same source (probably a HTPC). This would be an interesting comparison since it might tell us something about the ultimate quality of a true native 1080p source fed into the VGA port.

I would note that it is rare to see a Samsung or any other HDTV fed via HDMI in a store and for those of us who are on the verge but haven't committed that is still our reference point for how good the "1080p" sets will look. So we have, as a group, a lot experience looking at component HDTV at 1080i but very little, apparently, for VGA 1080i.

So, if VGA is as good as component when viewing 1080i (I'm betting it is) then one could make the case that true 1080p fed via VGA would show the same level of improvement that we see when going from 480i to 480p in a typical DVD scenario for a component input. We know that is a very large improvement.

Does this make any sense? Am I dreaming?

HD DVD launch Delayed to 2006 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=576187)

I don't think anyone is surprised by this.

Are they?

I don't think anyone is surprised by this.

Are they?

Hopefully this means that they are reaching an agreement with
the Sony camp...

you gotta be kiddin right.... so its all the other manufactures who should take responsibility for samsungs poor engineering....

Prove to me that it is samsungs fault? There is no evidence at all. Everything I've seen in my setup points directly at the source. So why not deal with the problem in the first device the signal passes through. It only makes sense. Let the STB's do their thing and make the signal as perfect as possible then pass it on to the next device in the chain. By the time it gets to the tv it should be as good and as in sync as possible.

Calbert - I can confirm that when switched to OTA, the digital audio type setting is now selectable. I don't have a cable card, but I would assume the same is true. However, if I switch from OTA to Cable it is no longer selectable.

Hopefully this means that they are reaching an agreement with
the Sony camp...

Bill Hunt talks a bit about it here:

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa108.html#ran


John

I bought an adapter like this to hook my GameCube up to the VGA port on my 6168, but it's not recognizing it. I can't select VGA as the inpu on the TV. It's still grayed out.

Why doesn't this work?

http://i14.ebayimg.com/01/i/02/f8/8e/f1_1_b.JPG

So I read over Post #4 as suggested, the HD950 is out of my choices, I'm debating on the Oppo, The Sony doesn't show up in sonystyle.ca or .com so I'm curious where it's gone too. I just read Secret's review of the Denon 3910 and they loved it and whole heartedly recommened it. It also uses the same chip Faroudja chip as the Oppo. Also seeing as I have a Denon receiver I can use Denon Link 3 to pass all audio (even SACD now!) which is good, I might even have more controls delay wise for that since it's denon's format?

I'm just worried about that incident where UCSB didn't like the picture of the 3910 with the Sammy? Maybe configuration? Lighting? Can anyone reassure me here?

- Sean

I bought an adapter like this to hook my GameCube up to the VGA port on my 6168, but it's not recognizing it. I can't select VGA as the inpu on the TV. It's still grayed out.

Why doesn't this work?

http://i14.ebayimg.com/01/i/02/f8/8e/f1_1_b.JPG

You're using the Component video cable correct, not the composite + l/r audio cable from the GC.

- D

Hopefully this means that they are reaching an agreement with
the Sony camp...

If BluRay products (including content) reach the market by christmas, Sony will have won the market by default, whether they have reached a compromise or not. If they have reached a compromise, expect huge delays in both products while they hammer out the details.

Hopefully this means that they are reaching an agreement with
the Sony camp...
Sure. I've got this bridge ... :cool:

Calbert - I can confirm that when switched to OTA, the digital audio type setting is now selectable. I don't have a cable card, but I would assume the same is true. However, if I switch from OTA to Cable it is no longer selectable.Thanks for checking ... Just curious: How are you inputting Cable into the tv? HDMI? Component + L/R Audio? Coax from the wall or a STB?

You're using the Component video cable correct, not the composite + l/r audio cable from the GC.

- D

Yes, it is the component output. I had to order the cables for $40 from Nintendo directly.

So I read over Post #4 as suggested, the HD950 is out of my choices, I'm debating on the Oppo, The Sony doesn't show up in sonystyle.ca or .com so I'm curious where it's gone too. I just read Secret's review of the Denon 3910 and they loved it and whole heartedly recommened it. It also uses the same chip Faroudja chip as the Oppo. Also seeing as I have a Denon receiver I can use Denon Link 3 to pass all audio (even SACD now!) which is good, I might even have more controls delay wise for that since it's denon's format?

I'm just worried about that incident where UCSB didn't like the picture of the 3910 with the Sammy? Maybe configuration? Lighting? Can anyone reassure me here?

- Sean
I believe the Sony player is being discontinued and DVP-NS90V is the new model that is replacing it.

Yes, it is the component output. I had to order the cables for $40 from Nintendo directly.

Component is YUV, while the VGA port is expecting RGB.

You would need something like the Audio Authority Model 9A65 to convert the signal.

http://gear.ign.com/articles/365/365333p1.html

John

I believe the Sony player is being discontinued and DVP-NS90V is the new model that is replacing it.I've heard this as well, yet every Brick and Mortar A/V store I've talked to has told me they're not aware of it being discontinued, and they apparently know nothing of the S90V. Cute, but not unexpected. Supplies of the S975V appear to keep dwindling ... I had to have mine shipped from a regional warehouse, one of their last 6. They had no idea when they'd get more.

So all signs seem to point to "discontinued," including the fact that the DVP-NS90V is now available on Sony's site:

DVP-NS90V (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/-/-/-/BB_DisplayProductInformation-Start?CategoryName=smb-hav_DVD_DVDPlayers&ProductSKU=DVPNS90V)

Looks like it's pretty much the same player, although I haven't combed through the specs carefully other than to notice that they appear to have dropped the multi-disc resume memory from 40 discs down to 6.

Three ideas:

1) Unplug the TV for a few minutes and try again.

2) Take lamp assembly out and then put it back in making sure all contacts are solid.

3) Check that the lamps assembly is securely plugged into power source.
Thanks Bill. I tried all of the above and still nothing. They are ordering a new light engine that will be in next week sometime. I am bummed.

So I read over Post #4 as suggested, the HD950 is out of my choices, I'm debating on the Oppo, The Sony doesn't show up in sonystyle.ca or .com so I'm curious where it's gone too. I just read Secret's review of the Denon 3910 and they loved it and whole heartedly recommened it. It also uses the same chip Faroudja chip as the Oppo. Also seeing as I have a Denon receiver I can use Denon Link 3 to pass all audio (even SACD now!) which is good, I might even have more controls delay wise for that since it's denon's format?

I'm just worried about that incident where UCSB didn't like the picture of the 3910 with the Sammy? Maybe configuration? Lighting? Can anyone reassure me here?

- Sean

Sony is releasing a new DVD player line-up and the position of the 975 in the line-up seems to have been dropped. They will be offering a $199 DVP-NS90V model and a more expensive ($500 ??) ES player. From my point of view, I'm not considering the $199 NS90V model as the replacement for the 975 until we can confirm the chips used in it ... I think it is just the top of their entry level line. But, on the surface it physically looks the same as the 975 and has similar specs.

The 975 is doing such a great job with my 5668, that I would encourage anyone considering it to pick it up before they start to disapper. WOW, I can't believe an addicted early adopter like myself said that ... but, comparing DVD players is expensive, time-consuming and harder than you might think.

Before I would go with the 3910, I would get an OPPO and wait for the 3910's successor and early results ... or if you want to really understand what can go wrong, take 'Master and Commander' down to a highend retailer and have them connect the 3910 to 1080p Samsung. Just watch the first 10 minutes or so of the movie. I haven't tried this movie with the 3910, but I used this movie and others to test macroblocking on the other FL2310 players (OPPO, Panasonic).

Calbert - I can confirm that when switched to OTA, the digital audio type setting is now selectable. I don't have a cable card, but I would assume the same is true. However, if I switch from OTA to Cable it is no longer selectable.

You just need to be watching a digital channel. Has nothing to do with the cable card.

Jon (Samsung 720p owner, not 1080p)

Thanks for checking ... Just curious: How are you inputting Cable into the tv? HDMI? Component + L/R Audio? Coax from the wall or a STB?

Cable - Coax from wall into 6168 antenna input
Air - Coax from Radio Shack antenna into other 6168 antenna input
HDMI - HDTivo HR10-250

The antenna switch on the remote lets you toggle between the two coax input sources. When I toggle to cable antenna input, the digital audio choice is no longer selectable.

Read above post..

Bill I've come to trust your advice solidly so I'll take your opinion. Now that I consider things, the Oppo is drastically cheaper then the Denon 3910, I can actually afford it right away instead of having to save.

Also since this player seems quite happy with the 1080p, would you agree that it'd be better to be the cheaper (yet still lovely) player now, and wait for the next generation of Denon with hopefully HD/DVD or Bluray support and THEN get a nice fancy player?

- D

With all the talk about the 1080p limitation on the HDMI input I'm curious if anyone has made a comparison of a 1080i input via VGA versus component versus HDMI from the same source (probably a HTPC). This would be an interesting comparison since it might tell us something about the ultimate quality of a true native 1080p source fed into the VGA port.

I would note that it is rare to see a Samsung or any other HDTV fed via HDMI in a store and for those of us who are on the verge but haven't committed that is still our reference point for how good the "1080p" sets will look. So we have, as a group, a lot experience looking at component HDTV at 1080i but very little, apparently, for VGA 1080i.

So, if VGA is as good as component when viewing 1080i (I'm betting it is) then one could make the case that true 1080p fed via VGA would show the same level of improvement that we see when going from 480i to 480p in a typical DVD scenario for a component input. We know that is a very large improvement.

Does this make any sense? Am I dreaming?

The VGA port accepts 1080p, not 1080i. I find that the PQ on VGA and HDMI from the same source to be comparable. The HDMI image seems a bit more edgy and less stable (not sure how to describe it). 1080p video (WMVHD IMax DVDs) on VGA are quite stunning but I also find it comparable to HD Leno on my OTA feed which I'm guessing is 1080i.

Component is YUV, while the VGA port is expecting RGB.

You would need something like the Audio Authority Model 9A65 to convert the signal.

http://gear.ign.com/articles/365/365333p1.html

John


OK that makes sense.

Has anyone used a converter like this to play a console gaming system via the VGA input?

HTPC and PC gamers seem to be reporting a lot less lag problems than console game players, so I'm wondering if this would make a difference.

Bill I've come to trust your advice solidly so I'll take your opinion. Now that I consider things, the Oppo is drastically cheaper then the Denon 3910, I can actually afford it right away instead of having to save.

Also since this player seems quite happy with the 1080p, would you agree that it'd be better to be the cheaper (yet still lovely) player now, and wait for the next generation of Denon with hopefully HD/DVD or Bluray support and THEN get a nice fancy player?

- D
That is certainly a very valid way to think about it. But an equally valid way is this: 1) you need a top upscaling player since you already have a large collection of 480i DVDs that you will not be replacing so soon, 2) the 3910 will outperform BluRay or HD players when it comes to playing 480i DVDs, 3) you are interested in the audio performance of the 3910, and will keep it for audio even after buying one of the new formats, and 4) you can get a less expensive BluRay or HD players since you won't care about the high res audio (since you'll be keeping the 3910 for audio). Just another way of looking at it.

Well I don't use my DVD player for audio that much actually. It'd be nice to have if I ever pickup some multichannel discs, but at the moment all my audio playing needs are handled by my computer which is also in the room, so bearing this in mind would the Oppo be a better choice?

Arg, Oppo or 3910, I hate decisions.

- D

IMO, the 3910 is a better player than the Oppo, even just for watching movies. Of course, whether it's $1000 or so better is a personal decision. It was for me due to my interest in the audio portion as well - I admit I probably would not have bought such an expensive player otherwise.

Well I'm not 100% in need of the audio portion at the moment, it's purely an added luxury at the moment, perhaps in a different house I may listen to CD's or whatnot, but with my PC right here it's not needed. Looks like I'll get the oppo now!

- D

Well I don't use my DVD player for audio that much actually. It'd be nice to have if I ever pickup some multichannel discs, but at the moment all my audio playing needs are handled by my computer which is also in the room, so bearing this in mind would the Oppo be a better choice?

Arg, Oppo or 3910, I hate decisions.

- D

Here's another possibility. The Pioneer Elite 59AVi ( or the soon to
be released 79 AVi ) which is similar PQ to the 3910 but with NO
Macroblocking. Also the 59/79AVi is one of very few DVD players that
will output 480i over HDMI ( also outputs 720p and 1080i over HDMI )
making it ideal to input to a video processor ( i.e. you can send it
raw DVD data ).

Slightly cheaper than the 3910 but more expensive than the OPPO.

I sold my 3910 right after buying the 59AVi...

Audio is same quality as 3910 but I don't use the audo I just send DD / DTS over
a digital coax cable.

There is a high probability that High Def DVD players will not output
480i over HDMI...

My HLPxx63 (HLM and HLN either) doesn't accept 480i through DVI or HDMI -- only 480p, 720p and 1080i.


no problem - the 59 AVi also outputs all of those formats.

The rare thing it does is also outputs 480i over HDMI...

no problem - the 59 AVi also outputs all of those formats.

The rare thing is does is also outputs 480i over HDMI...I didn't mean to post that message. :o

[QUOTE=MikeAlletto]There is no way anyone of us can give a definite answer of YES or NO. The facts are that some get the delay and some don't. I don't have any compensation features in my outlaw 950. So when watching cable tv it is either there or it isn't. 99.9% of the time there is no problem at all. Forget about "echo test" or putting 2 tv's side by side. That just introduces more factors into the equation. Only judge it by what you see and hear in your normal operating environment. If you have problems then figure out an external way to solve them. If you don't have problems then great. But what it boils down to is there is ZERO evidence that suggests that the answer is a 100% yes or a 100% no.

Every single one of us has reported different things and that right there says a mouthful.

I vote that this topic be banned from the thread. Anyone that asks if they will see delay will just have to be told yes and no. Depends upon your source and components. There is no way to tell a new buyer if they will or won't see it because none of us are there.[/QUOTE

Some see it and some don't. Every body can hear it (echo test). Any manufacture who can provide 1020p HD and DD 5.1 without an echo would have a lock on the HD market and make the AVR with built in delay obsolete. Does anyone know of a manufacture that can do it? I don't understand why the DLP can't pass DD 5.1 but It must be expensive or illegal.

.....with NO Macroblocking.
This may have been already covered in this long thread, but has anybody seen MB with these new 1080p Samsungs when matched with a Faroudja player? I have never seen MB with my HLN Sammy.

Yes, I can see it with the OPPO. I compared a few scenes between the Oppo and the Sony 975 and they were definitely noticeable on the Oppo. I won't have my 6168 calibrated until next week though so I only used the THX calibration to get the BTB setting. I plan on keeping both players but I've decided to use the Sony as my main player because it has a 40 disc memory and also will output 480i over the HDMi so I can use it with the VP30 and let the VP30 do the scaling. Both the Sony and Oppo are excellent players, each one has their own quirks.

[QUOTE=MikeAlletto]I don't understand why the DLP can't pass DD 5.1 but It must be expensive or illegal.DLP has nothing to do with audio. So far, all the manufacturers have left it out to save a few bucks.

... I've decided to use the Sony as my main player because it has a 40 disc memory and also will output 480i over the HDMi so I can use it with the VP30 and let the VP30 do the scaling.It will be interesting to hear about your calibration in combination with the VP30.

I mentioned this earlier, was hoping someone had more information since the thread is so large.

I have a HLR-6168 and I am having a screen problem. If you were to split the screen into six vertical sections the section on the far left is lighter than the other sections.

Someone suggested I reinsert the lamp, which I did but it did not resolve the issue. Samsung Service stopped by and he said he was going to put in an order for a new screen and light engine.

Has anyone had this particular issue? Any ideas?

[QUOTE=MikeAlletto]There is no way anyone of us can give a definite answer of YES or NO. The facts are that some get the delay and some don't. I don't have any compensation features in my outlaw 950. So when watching cable tv it is either there or it isn't. 99.9% of the time there is no problem at all. Forget about "echo test" or putting 2 tv's side by side. That just introduces more factors into the equation. Only judge it by what you see and hear in your normal operating environment. If you have problems then figure out an external way to solve them. If you don't have problems then great. But what it boils down to is there is ZERO evidence that suggests that the answer is a 100% yes or a 100% no.

Every single one of us has reported different things and that right there says a mouthful.

I vote that this topic be banned from the thread. Anyone that asks if they will see delay will just have to be told yes and no. Depends upon your source and components. There is no way to tell a new buyer if they will or won't see it because none of us are there.[/QUOTE

Some see it and some don't. Every body can hear it (echo test). Any manufacture who can provide 1020p HD and DD 5.1 without an echo would have a lock on the HD market and make the AVR with built in delay obsolete. Does anyone know of a manufacture that can do it? I don't understand why the DLP can't pass DD 5.1 but It must be expensive or illegal.


My Samsung has a July firmware....I do not know if I have the "issue" I route all sound through my reciever and I don't have a problem.

OK that makes sense.

Has anyone used a converter like this to play a console gaming system via the VGA input?

HTPC and PC gamers seem to be reporting a lot less lag problems than console game players, so I'm wondering if this would make a difference.

I have not done it that direction. Before I got my new Samsung, my previous TV only had component inputs, so I used the inverse to convert from VGA/RGB to component. For that purpose the Audio Authority 9A60 did an excellent job.

John

Sony is releasing a new DVD player line-up and the position of the 975 in the line-up seems to have been dropped. They will be offering a $199 DVP-NS90V model and a more expensive ($500 ??) ES player. From my point of view, I'm not considering the $199 NS90V model as the replacement for the 975 until we can confirm the chips used in it ... I think it is just the top of their entry level line. But, on the surface it physically looks the same as the 975 and has similar specs.

The 975 is doing such a great job with my 5668, that I would encourage anyone considering it to pick it up before they start to disapper. WOW, I can't believe an addicted early adopter like myself said that ... but, comparing DVD players is expensive, time-consuming and harder than you might think.

Before I would go with the 3910, I would get an OPPO and wait for the 3910's successor and early results ... or if you want to really understand what can go wrong, take 'Master and Commander' down to a highend retailer and have them connect the 3910 to 1080p Samsung. Just watch the first 10 minutes or so of the movie. I haven't tried this movie with the 3910, but I used this movie and others to test macroblocking on the other FL2310 players (OPPO, Panasonic).

Bill can you share any preliminary results on the panny dvd players? Thanks.

[QUOTE=jmkohm]


My Samsung has a July firmware....I do not know if I have the "issue" I route all sound through my reciever and I don't have a problem.

Have you done the ECHO test?

With all the talk about the 1080p limitation on the HDMI input I'm curious if anyone has made a comparison of a 1080i input via VGA versus component versus HDMI from the same source (probably a HTPC). This would be an interesting comparison since it might tell us something about the ultimate quality of a true native 1080p source fed into the VGA port.

I would note that it is rare to see a Samsung or any other HDTV fed via HDMI in a store and for those of us who are on the verge but haven't committed that is still our reference point for how good the "1080p" sets will look. So we have, as a group, a lot experience looking at component HDTV at 1080i but very little, apparently, for VGA 1080i.

So, if VGA is as good as component when viewing 1080i (I'm betting it is) then one could make the case that true 1080p fed via VGA would show the same level of improvement that we see when going from 480i to 480p in a typical DVD scenario for a component input. We know that is a very large improvement.

Does this make any sense? Am I dreaming?
I think this was true with the older TV's but I think the scalers/deinterlacers in these TV's are pretty good. I am very happy feeding 480i to my 5668w. Its close enough to HDMI at 1080i not to get me all that excited. I could not find a compelling difference in PQ (SS HD950).

Bill can you share any preliminary results on the panny dvd players? Thanks.

I've added my thoughts on the Panasonic DVD-S97 to POST #4 in this thread, it is the last of the four reviews and is at the end of the POST.

Bill I've come to trust your advice solidly so I'll take your opinion. Now that I consider things, the Oppo is drastically cheaper then the Denon 3910, I can actually afford it right away instead of having to save.

Also since this player seems quite happy with the 1080p, would you agree that it'd be better to be the cheaper (yet still lovely) player now, and wait for the next generation of Denon with hopefully HD/DVD or Bluray support and THEN get a nice fancy player?

- D

D ... I think you would be happy with the OPPO (or the Sony DVP-NS975V).

The VGA port accepts 1080p, not 1080i. I find that the PQ on VGA and HDMI from the same source to be comparable. The HDMI image seems a bit more edgy and less stable (not sure how to describe it). 1080p video (WMVHD IMax DVDs) on VGA are quite stunning but I also find it comparable to HD Leno on my OTA feed which I'm guessing is 1080i.

Thanks for the input. I know that the feed to the VGA port has to be 1080p since it is going to be coming from a PC. Good to hear that you can get HDMI level PQ from a VGA feed. That's what I expected and it is good news.

OTOH, a WMVHD 1080p signal from an IMAx DVD is less than a perfect HDTV source depending of course on the level of compression used. It is very good but I wonder if the DVD was film ->1080p. Probably was. In any case, my experience is that OTA is the best you can get and much better than the average fare on DirecTV. Discovery Channel, HDNet and some ESPN (live sports) are the exceptions. They look as good as OTA to me.

Good news is VGA 1080p is very good.
Bad news is that a 1080p VGA input probably isn't spectacularly better than 1080i over HDMI.

Argh. I've been fooling around with my GameCube and my 6168.
I have the TV in GAME mode.

If I turn progressive scan on in the game I can use the picture size button to change from 16:9 to 4:3 to zoom to etc.

If I leave progressive scan off in the game, the lag is more bearable, but I can no longer select the picture size and the TV automatically stretches and distorts the picture.

WHY???

thanks.

Can't wait for the XBOX360 to release in Nov so I can really enjoy gaming on these 1080p TVs.

Unfortunately when you send DD to an external processor, the TV can't do anything about that so you need a processor that can create similar audio delay if you are having sync problems.

Sure it can. It can have an internal loop which delays the digital audio to match the video and it could be adjustable through the TV menu. Whether the TV manufacturer decides to offer this is another issue.

No manufacturer has decided to offer this yet.

Well my Oppo arrived yesterday and my 5078 shipped today. Really excited as this is my first HDTV. Will be replacing my SA 8000 DVR with the HD version, since my local TWC doesn't have the SA 8300 HD DVR. :o( My question is....does the HDMI output work on the 8000? I've read it has one but that it doesn't work. Thanks for any info and thanks especially to UCSB for his review of DVD players resulting in my cancellation of the 950 for the Oppo.

D ... I think you would be happy with the OPPO (or the Sony DVP-NS975V).
I was also looking at 3910 and went with Oppo instead. I have mine connected via Optical to Denon 1804 AVR surround system and was have major lip synch issues on many DVD's. The 50ms delay was not enough. I broke down and bought Felston and have my delay set to 140ms and that did the trick. Aside from the lip synch issue, the PQ from Oppo has been great in my opinion, well worth the money!

Well my Oppo arrived yesterday and my 5078 shipped today. Really excited as this is my first HDTV. Will be replacing my SA 8000 DVR with the HD version, since my local TWC doesn't have the SA 8300 HD DVR. :o( My question is....does the HDMI output work on the 8000? I've read it has one but that it doesn't work. Thanks for any info and thanks especially to UCSB for his review of DVD players resulting in my cancellation of the 950 for the Oppo.
Congrats! I have the SA8300 and fortunately HDMI works fine for video, but most likely you will not get any sound out of it. I found out by my cable company that I one of the lucky ones where HDMI works at all on 8300.

Also, the Oppo is a great choice! Enjoy :)

Help!!!

I was watching DVD with OPPO (plugged through HDMI). Then I stopped the DVD and walked out. Now no matter how I tried my TV is set at "HDMI1". My remote control is not functioning either. I tried to unplug the TV but it still is stuck in the same HDMI1.

Anybody has any thoughts??

Thanks!

likao2000

Unplug the HDMI connector before you reconnect the power to the TV.

Help!!!

I was watching DVD with OPPO (plugged through HDMI). Then I stopped the DVD and walked out. Now no matter how I tried my TV is set at "HDMI1". My remote control is not functioning either. I tried to unplug the TV but it still is stuck in the same HDMI1.

Anybody has any thoughts??

Thanks!

likao2000

Change your batteries in the remote. Make sure the small dark circle below the power switch on the front of the TV is not being blocked. It is your IR receiver.

I changed the battery on the controller, I don't see anything being blocked on the front of the TV. But it still doesn't solve the problem.

Change your batteries in the remote. Make sure the small dark circle below the power switch on the front of the TV is not being blocked. It is your IR receiver.

Do the source and menu buttons on the side of the TV work? When you turn the power on do you get a picture? When you unplugged the set did you let it sit for a minute or so?

yes, the source and menu on the side do work! So it is indeed the stupid controller. I changed the battery but it doesn't seem to work. Any thoughts?

Do the source and menu buttons on the side of the TV work? When you turn the power on do you get a picture? When you unplugged the set did you let it sit for a minute or so?

UCSB awhile back you mentioned a remote control which I know i saved the info but cant find it.I tried the Harmony 880 but was not satisfied with it,had to go through the menu trying to find something was like having a messy desk.Then I got the Pronto 3000 but dont know if it will cover all the settings.Still playing with it.My puters tied up so cant get online.By the way did you recieve any codes yet.

Well... I guess I can make my first post here, as I am officially an Owner now. I ordered my 6168 on 8/1 and received it this Wednesday (8/31). Not too bad, except when I opened the box and set it up on my brand new Salamander stand, I noticed a fine powdery line of broken glass covering the area between the screen and the speakers. When I looked inside the TV through the side portals, I saw the problem... the main mirror was sitting in about a million little shards on the bottom of the case! There is no way this thing could be salvaged, as all the electronics, inside and out, are now coated in glass. I dealt with TVA on Thursday morning, and they told me they weren't even sure if any were in stock, but may have some Tuesday. So, I have been frustrated, and was ready to post nasty things about them and SEKO sending only one delivery guy, when I suddenly received an e-mail with a new tracking number :-). All I have to say is Aaron rocks at TVA... hopefully SEKO delivers on Saturday (especially for a replacement), or I'll still have to wait until Tuesday. But at least I know it's on the way. Thanks for all of the banter that I've seen on this board, it has helped me immensely in my dealings with TVA, and in understanding the nature of my new toy. Sorry about the long post, but I feel like an expecting father here...

BTW: my setup includes a Denon 2910, Marantz SR7500, and Comcast DVR.

Hooked up my 6168 today. Watched it for 8 hours.First impression is amazing. The color and constrast and PQ are great.Watched Guess Who on DVD and it was great.NO audio delay at all.I have aSamsung HD950 DVD player,Yamaha 5860 AVR,Atlantic Technology Speaker system and Direct TV HD 10 box.I hope everyone expecting one of these sets have the great experience I had.

P.S. The DVD and DIrect TV were both hooked up with HDMI cable.

Ed

All I have to say is Aaron rocks at TVA... hopefully SEKO delivers on Saturday (especially for a replacement), or I'll still have to wait until Tuesday. But at least I know it's on the way.Welcome! Sorry to hear about the first set, and good luck with the second! Let us know how it goes.

UCSB awhile back you mentioned a remote control which I know i saved the info but cant find it.I tried the Harmony 880 but was not satisfied with it,had to go through the menu trying to find something was like having a messy desk.Then I got the Pronto 3000 but dont know if it will cover all the settings.Still playing with it.My puters tied up so cant get online.By the way did you recieve any codes yet.

I haven't received the codes from Samsung yet, but you can pickup almost every code except HDMI 2 at remotecentral.com in the files area under Samsung TV. There is a Samsung HLP codes file with most of the codes in the file. If you are trying to get started, I would be happy to email you my TSU3000 file. It is custom for my setup, but could be modified easily. It will show you what is possible ... you can run it in the emulator or on your 3000. I have a totally custom design that was time consuming to create, but easy to maintain now.

yes, the source and menu on the side do work! So it is indeed the stupid controller. I changed the battery but it doesn't seem to work. Any thoughts?

There is a small black circle directly below the power button, it is your IR receiver. Make sure nothing is blocking it.

Does the green LED in the power button flash when you use your remote (to acknowledge getting the signal)?

If you have another remote, such as a universal DVD remote that can support TV's, set it to Samsung and see if that second remote works.

Use the remote from 1 foot away ... just to see if it is sending out a weak signal.

If second remote works or remote works from 1 foot, than it is probably your remote and call 1-800-Samsung and request another one.

I haven't received the codes from Samsung yet, but you can pickup almost every code except HDMI 2 at remotecentral.com in the files area under Samsung TV. There is a Samsung HLP codes file with most of the codes in the file. If you are trying to get started, I would be happy to email you my TSU3000 file. It is custom for my setup, but could be modified easily. It will show you what is possible ... you can run it in the emulator or on your 3000. I have a totally custom design that was time consuming to create, but easy to maintain now.

I know you guys are talking about the custom codes, but for those reading, I found that 060 on the universal remotes seems to be a good starting point.

Damn you guys!

Oppo, Pioneer? Bah! My Dad owns a Pioneer reciever which is just now (after like 40 years) starting to die... So I trust their stuff...

The Oppo *is* cheaper, which is nice for me, as I said earlier I'm not really interested in the audio stuff with my DVD player... the the website does seem like it was written by a geek, which I like, the player is very small in size, I'm not sure why this worries me... and damn you Tony for talking about that new Pioneer....

I have no qualms of buying a HD DVD and/or Blu-Ray player later on, just don't want to spend $1000+ on each.

I have a feeling I'll be going with the Oppo seeing as it's getting lots of recommendations, and I'm assuming DVI-HDMI + Toslink is the connection setup I want to use?

- D

Well, i got my 6168 last night. I still dont have a stand but should be getting one very shortly. I hooked up my sony dvp-ns975v and started checking a few movies out.

At first i had the sony set to auto resolution i believe. When i changed the hdmi to 1920-1080p i believe i could tell the difference. the picture looks more crisp.

I also watched some of Spiderman2 which looks amazing, and matrix reloaded.

Two concerns:

I noticed a wavy smudge on the left side of the screen, toward the middle. I cant tell if its a smudge or not though. I see it when the tv is off or on, when darker scenes play over that part it is more noticeable. It almost looks like a light refraction or slight glare, but it isnt. Its not very big but if i pay attention to it its kinda of annoying. Would anyone know if i could clean this ? or get rid of it somehow ? is it a smudge or a defect in the screen ?

Another thing i noticed. In saving private ryan, in the beggining when they are clearing the beach and get to the top.. If you watch it , its right during the part when the guy says "look i washed for supper". In that particular scene when you see the fires in the background, the flames create a very unrealistic effect on the screen where the red lights from the fire strect all the way to the top of the screen like a beam of red light. Has anyone ever seen this effect with fires in movies ? Is this something thats caused by the tv being bad ? or dvd player ?

Other then those two problems i experienced the tv looks great. I am just curious as to why not all dvd's would be filling up the whole screen if they are widescreen dvd's. SPR is 1.85:1 - which plays in full screen. Spiderman2 is like 2.35:1 or something and has black bars on top and bottom.

Getting my cable hooked up today. Hope it goes well.

Well, i got my 6168 last night. I still dont have a stand but should be getting one very shortly. I hooked up my sony dvp-ns975v and started checking a few movies out.

At first i had the sony set to auto resolution i believe. When i changed the hdmi to 1920-1080p i believe i could tell the difference. the picture looks more crisp.

I also watched some of Spiderman2 which looks amazing, and matrix reloaded.

Two concerns:

I noticed a wavy smudge on the left side of the screen, toward the middle. I cant tell if its a smudge or not though. I see it when the tv is off or on, when darker scenes play over that part it is more noticeable. It almost looks like a light refraction or slight glare, but it isnt. Its not very big but if i pay attention to it its kinda of annoying. Would anyone know if i could clean this ? or get rid of it somehow ? is it a smudge or a defect in the screen ?

Another thing i noticed. In saving private ryan, in the beggining when they are clearing the beach and get to the top.. If you watch it , its right during the part when the guy says "look i washed for supper". In that particular scene when you see the fires in the background, the flames create a very unrealistic effect on the screen where the red lights from the fire strect all the way to the top of the screen like a beam of red light. Has anyone ever seen this effect with fires in movies ? Is this something thats caused by the tv being bad ? or dvd player ?

Other then those two problems i experienced the tv looks great. I am just curious as to why not all dvd's would be filling up the whole screen if they are widescreen dvd's. SPR is 1.85:1 - which plays in full screen. Spiderman2 is like 2.35:1 or something and has black bars on top and bottom.

Getting my cable hooked up today. Hope it goes well.

The DVD's don't fill up the screen entirely because there are different widescreen resolutions. Now all movies are shot in 16:9 or 2:35:1 (I think that's right, it's been a while). Anyways if you go to the main thread listing for the Rear Projection there should be a stickied thread about "Black Bars" that's what you're looking for.

- D

Another thing i noticed. In saving private ryan, in the beggining when they are clearing the beach and get to the top.. If you watch it , its right during the part when the guy says "look i washed for supper". In that particular scene when you see the fires in the background, the flames create a very unrealistic effect on the screen where the red lights from the fire strect all the way to the top of the screen like a beam of red light. Has anyone ever seen this effect with fires in movies ? Is this something thats caused by the tv being bad ? or dvd player ?


That the way the picture is supposed to look. It was that way in the movie theater. You are not the first person to think that something was wrong with their player or display device. It is an intentional effect.

That the way the picture is supposed to look. It was that way in the movie theater. You are not the first person to think that something was wrong with their player or display device. It is an intentional effect.

Why would that be intentional ? to make a fire look like a beam of light stretching to the top of the sky / screen. I dont recall seeing this when i watched this movie on my pc monitor / pc dvd player. I could be wrong though i will have to check it out again.


You know what i can do about that white / clear looking smudge ?

You would have to ask Speilberg why he wanted that look. If you do a search you will see many posts about it over the years. People pop the disc in and think something is wrong, but it isn't. I saw that effect in the movie theater, in HD on TV, and from the DVD.

Alright so I posted about my DVD Player ponderings over in the Denon 3910 thread and a few people posted this question:

"How can the Oppo be better then the 3910 when they both use the same chip? By all accounts the 3910 (a beefier player) should be as good, or better?"

Basically the Oppo would have to come through customs, and the 3910 I can get (somewhat) locally. Returning either because I don't like them would not be easy.

If anyone out there has a 3910 or knows someone on AVS that lives near them (and knows how to set it up properly) I ask you to try it with your HLRxxx8 set...

- D

The DVD's don't fill up the screen entirely because there are different widescreen resolutions.Right. :)

Now all movies are shot in 16:9 or 2:35:1 (I think that's right, it's been a while).Films are shot in 1.77:1 (16x9), 1.85:1, 2.35:1 and a few others.

Anyways if you go to the main thread listing for the Rear Projection there should be a stickied thread about "Black Bars" that's what you're looking for.There is a link to this topic at the bottom of my message.

I am just curious as to why not all dvd's would be filling up the whole screen if they are widescreen dvd's. SPR is 1.85:1 - which plays in full screen. Spiderman2 is like 2.35:1 or something and has black bars on top and bottom.A film shot in 1.77:1 will fill a 16x9 screen perfectly. Divide 16 by 9 to see why. :)

A film shot in 1.85:1 is just a little wider than the screen and has very small black bars top and bottom. You don't see them because all TV sets have some amount of over scan.

A film shot in 2.35:1 is much wider than 16x9. To fill a 16x9 screen the image would have to have information cropped off both ends. That is what has been done to "Pan and Scan" DVDs to get them to fit a 4x3 screen. The black bars allow the widest movies to be watched on less wide 16x9 screens without loss of parts of the image.

The link at the bottom of my message goes into more detail and points to other sources of information.

Alright so I posted about my DVD Player ponderings over in the Denon 3910 thread and a few people posted this question:

"How can the Oppo be better then the 3910 when they both use the same chip? By all accounts the 3910 (a beefier player) should be as good, or better?"

Basically the Oppo would have to come through customs, and the 3910 I can get (somewhat) locally. Returning either because I don't like them would not be easy.

If anyone out there has a 3910 or knows someone on AVS that lives near them (and knows how to set it up properly) I ask you to try it with your HLRxxx8 set...

- D

I believe that Tonydeluche used a 3910 and found it to be very good (even though I think he ultimately went to a Pio Elite 59avi).

Alright so I posted about my DVD Player ponderings over in the Denon 3910 thread and a few people posted this question:

"How can the Oppo be better then the 3910 when they both use the same chip? By all accounts the 3910 (a beefier player) should be as good, or better?"

Basically the Oppo would have to come through customs, and the 3910 I can get (somewhat) locally. Returning either because I don't like them would not be easy.

If anyone out there has a 3910 or knows someone on AVS that lives near them (and knows how to set it up properly) I ask you to try it with your HLRxxx8 set...

- D

D ... I don't think anyone is saying the OPPO is a better player than the 3910. What I was saying was since the 3910 has some macroblocking problems, I would not spend the $1200 or so on the player. I would wait until the next generation Denon if you want a Denon to match your reciever. While you are waiting the OPPO at $199 is a player that you can use and enjoy. It has a nice picture (but since it used the same Genesis FL2310 as the 3910) will also have occassional macroblocking. The Panasonic S97 has a similar picture and would also be a good choice. If you want to avoid the macroblocking than the Sony DVP-NS975V would be the way to go. If you want to buy a higher-end premium player right now the Pioneer 59AVi (or its successor 79AVi next month) is a better bet than the 3910.

I'm going to make my big investment in a player after HD is available.

With your vision problems, you may not detect the macroblocking on the OPPO or S97. Since you are using a receiver that can set AV sync on each input you can go with either the OPPO, S97 or Sony 975.

I am considering purchasing asony 400 Disk DVD Player but Sony says the 1080 ouput is only compatable with HDCP compliant devices. Is the HLR 6178W HDCP compliant?

Thanks

D ... I don't think anyone is saying the OPPO is a better player than the 3910. What I was saying was since the 3910 has some macroblocking problems, I would not spend the $1200 or so on the player. I would wait until the next generation Denon if you want a Denon to match your reciever. While you are waiting the OPPO at $199 is a player that you can use and enjoy. It has a nice picture (but since it used the same Genesis FL2310 as the 3910) will also have occassional macroblocking. The Panasonic S97 has a similar picture and would also be a good choice. If you want to avoid the macroblocking than the Sony DVP-NS975V would be the way to go. If you want to buy a higher-end premium player right now the Pioneer 59AVi (or its successor 79AVi next month) is a better bet than the 3910.

I'm going to make my big investment in a player after HD is available.

With your vision problems, you may not detect the macroblocking on the OPPO or S97. Since you are using a receiver that can set AV sync on each input you can go with either the OPPO, S97 or Sony 975.

Bill you bring up a good point indeed. I wonder if the next-gen players will support 480i over HDMI for older DVD's, I don't see why they wouldn't... there was some speculation over in the Denon thread is all.

- D

I am considering purchasing asony 400 Disk DVD Player but Sony says the 1080 ouput is only compatable with HDCP compliant devices. Is the HLR 6178W HDCP compliant?All Samsung DLP sets are HDCP complient. Almost all DLP set built in the past two to three years are too.