I plan to order a 5668 or 6168 tomorrow.
Is there a down side to the 6168 vs the 5668.
The room is large so I have no space issue.

Also, I see many posts about extended warranties.
I was always taught they were not a good value.
Are these TVs more likely to break.

I plan to order a 5668 or 6168 tomorrow.
Is there a down side to the 6168 vs the 5668.
The room is large so I have no space issue.

Also, I see many posts about extended warranties.
I was always taught they were not a good value.
Are these TVs more likely to break.


The cost difference between a 5668 and 6168 is only a few hundred dollars. So, I would go for 6168 (that is what I did!).
Extended warranties are like insurance. You take them if that would make you feel better. I took them just for the screen protection warranty as I have a 3 year old :)

Its going to be hard to for a wombled 960x540 or even 960x1080 chip to compete against a HD2+ V2 1280x720 rock solid image.



How do you think the image from the HD2+ 1280x720 looks compared
to the image from a 9 in. CRT that displays one pixel at a time?

Also there is very little 720p content, most content is 1080i, so there will
much less processing, in general, having a 1080p display than a 720p
display since 1080i60fps can be de-interlaced to 1080p30fps with
no conversion - just simply de-interlacing. Also HD-DVD stores the image
as 1080i.

The wobulated 720p sets had some issues with softness etc. but many
are reporting very detailed images with the 1080p sets. Also the
black level and contrast ratio of the new 1080p DLP chips has bumped
them up to a new level even if the resolution wasn't increased.

Good day all,
I'd like to start by saying that I am a newbie to this whole HD world. I just purchased my first ever surround sound system and I am waiting for my 5668 set. I have been trying to read as much as possible about HD and everything else involved. It takes me a while sometimes to figure out what all the acronyms stand for, but I usually can figure it out.

Here is my question. I am looking for any help in setting up my system as far as what should be connected to what and through which input/output. Here are my components.

Samsung 5668 (on the way)
Pioneer VSX-1015TX AVR. It has all kinds of inputs both digital and analog.
Klipsch 5.1 surround sound.
Samsung DVD-HD850. It has an HDMI Output
Shuttle XPC with VGA output and Onboard 6 Channel Audio w/Digital (SPDIF) Ports
Comcast Digital Cable w/ DVR (scheduled for install when TV arrives) with DVI and HDMI outputs. I don't know what the make/model is.

Here is what I am looking for out of this system.

1. I would like to play DVD with the best picture quality through my 5.1 Surround Sound.

2. The Shuttle PC is only for accessing the Internet (using TV as a display), playing some home movies that I have edited, and listening to my MP3 collection through my surround sound system.

3. Watching Digital Cable with the option of listening through surround or just through the TV set speakers.

4. Probably will pick up a PS2 sometime in the near future for occasional gaming.

If someone has a bit a time and would like to help a newbie get the best possible A/V configuration out of these components, I would greatly appreciate it.

If this not I understand also.

Thanks
-dreamr

I agree with everyone who says this is a great site. I've read this thread and others for several months. The problem I'm having is that my memory can't keep up. The first page is great, but what I'd like to see is something about best practices for the set up, configuration, etc.

For example:
with a HD Directv/TIVO box, which connections do I want to use?
I have a 6.1/video receiver, how do I make sure I get the 5.1 while also getting the best picture?
How does any of this affect my DVD player connection/setup?
What other settings to I want to make?
On the up conversion thing, how do I set my Directv box, DVD player, etc. to get best picture?

I know all the answers are here some place, but does anyone have a way to pull some of the basics and/or best practices together a little better? I know best practices don't apply to everyone but it would be a good point of departure for many of us. If we can't get a list of best practices, can we get a running list of setup/connection/configuration things to avoid?

Thanks

120 mS delay should be noticable to most persons.

If the source is 60 fps video, 120 mS = ~7 frames delay
If the source is 24 fps film, 120 mS = ~3 frames delay

Here's a discussion of the subject:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/audio_notes/f-TC-Keeping_it_all.shtml

Dolby specs maximum delay of +5/-15 mS for AC/3.

The ITU is a little more lenient with a spec of +45/-125 mS as perceptible and +90/-185 mS acceptable.

-phil


Bummer, it looks like I’m going to cancel my pre-order. I watch a lot of moves all through my veryyyy expensive sound system. To watch the latest star wars and it act like watching an old Bruce Lee flick is out of the question. :mad:

Hi JackLT - And others complaining of 1080i

You know the "OH WoW" factor started way back at CES in January and it was by professional reviewers and AV Specialists at CES reporting back and CNET confirming it choosing it as next best thing and Best of Show when that show was packed with 1080P competitors they chose Samsung! If you look at the detail of the reviews old and new is that we're talking far more than just 1080P upscaling and what it does for 1080i we're talking about up to 10,000:1 CR and blacks and detail that are reported as phoenomenal.

With all the discussion rambling about the Holy Grail 1080P what in the world is wrong with 1080i upconverted? I'm awaiting my 6768 but viewing my Sharp 32" LCD FP and view HD daily in 1080i and it is fricken beautiful and what is this constant rambling on about 1080P disappointment unless these folks have never seen a true 1080i on a quality Panel? I've selected and copied every review into a running text file and then will save it as an csv file into either my database or excel and then sort the results for an overall analysis - People are saying Oh Wow because I trust that is their experience - "Wow Factor" much like a quality Plasma can provide.

I've yet to see a single competitor document that they will be passing true 1080P and from what source? Let's accept they are on equal footing with Samsung as first bringing it to market rather than just a marketing ploy like Mits did in S. Cal.

Overwhelming results are there is a significant difference in detail (blacks), color and pop between 720P and 1080P and that is what was reported at CES back in January. Not to say anyone else may do it better than Samsung besides Q006 but it certaiinly is promising so far so why all the naysayers doubting it without viewing it?

This constant complaint about not true 1080P when in fact 1080i is awesome and dramatic CR and blacks and brightness how can we complain. Anyhone have spare $10K to upgrade to a Qualia 006? Which at this point the only RPTV that may be competitive. Anyone out there disappointed with 1080i that has viewed it on a quality Panel? If so then don't consider buying it - that's an easy choice. :D

Good day all,
I'd like to start by saying that I am a newbie to this whole HD world. I just purchased my first ever surround sound system and I am waiting for my 5668 set. I have been trying to read as much as possible about HD and everything else involved. It takes me a while sometimes to figure out what all the acronyms stand for, but I usually can figure it out.

Here is my question. I am looking for any help in setting up my system as far as what should be connected to what and through which input/output. Here are my components.

Samsung 5668 (on the way)
Pioneer VSX-1015TX AVR. It has all kinds of inputs both digital and analog.
Klipsch 5.1 surround sound.
Samsung DVD-HD850. It has an HDMI Output
Shuttle XPC with VGA output and Onboard 6 Channel Audio w/Digital (SPDIF) Ports
Comcast Digital Cable w/ DVR (scheduled for install when TV arrives) with DVI and HDMI outputs. I don't know what the make/model is.

Here is what I am looking for out of this system.

1. I would like to play DVD with the best picture quality through my 5.1 Surround Sound.

2. The Shuttle PC is only for accessing the Internet (using TV as a display), playing some home movies that I have edited, and listening to my MP3 collection through my surround sound system.

3. Watching Digital Cable with the option of listening through surround or just through the TV set speakers.

4. Probably will pick up a PS2 sometime in the near future for occasional gaming.

If someone has a bit a time and would like to help a newbie get the best possible A/V configuration out of these components, I would greatly appreciate it.

If this not I understand also.

Thanks
-dreamr

I'm not as experienced as many around here, maybe just a step or two ahead of you and can offer something to get you started. I would recommend

1) Connect your cable stb and your DVD player to the TV via HDMI cables; this will use the 2 HDMI inputs on the TV. This should give you the best video. (Set both sources to output 1080i.)

2) Connect the audio out from the stb and the DVD player to your AV receiver via optical (digital) Toslink (or digital coax) cables. This will allow you to have 5.1 sound from both sources.

2) Mute the TV speakers and forget about them.

2) Connect your pc to the pc (VGA) input of the TV with an appropriate cable.

Good luck! This is a pretty standard approach; if you run into any tricky questions, I'm sure others help can help you out.

...Where does TI actually state they are using 960x1080 chips, in the white paper I read , it stated 960x540??
The Smooth Picture document included in the 2005 CES Press Kit states 960 distinct column pairs and 540 distinct row pairs.

Anything that wombles is not ideal.
Of course, a lot of what one might consider to be ideal has a lot to do with how one will primarily use the set.

I'll agree that if I were planning on running PC apps on a DLP all day, I'd rather have the full orthogonal array of mirrors. I personally have no intention to use my 5078 for that very often. I'm willing to trade a bit of sharpness for an increased perceived fill factor for watching movies and such. Combine a smooth overall picture with, as Tony points out, a more dynamic value range, and you've got a real promising product that's reasonably affordable for people like me (who want a great picture, but don't want to spend an absolute fortune for perfection). Nothing like the art (or business) of compromise, eh? ;)

Hey Daphoid, where are my 6 HDMI ports?

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to ask this, but if I pay $35 to be an AVS club member, does anyone know if I'd get that back in additional savings on the 6168 or 6768 power buy?

thanks again

Good luck! This is a pretty standard approach; if you run into any tricky questions, I'm sure others help can help you out.

I agree, this seems like a great place to start. You'll still have your component jacks available for connecting a PS2 or Xbox. That's basically what I'm doing, although I'm definitely going to experiment with component versus HDMI for connecting my cable STB (SA 8300HD) to the set ... curious how much (if any) difference I'll see.

Good luck!

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to ask this, but if I pay $35 to be an AVS club member, does anyone know if I'd get that back in additional savings on the 6168 or 6768 power buy?

thanks again

Cookie, it is my understanding that you don't have to pay anything to take advantage of the TVA powerbuy. I didn't. In fact, I don't know what the $35 will get you. Can anyone elaborate?

Bummer, it looks like I’m going to cancel my pre-order. I watch a lot of moves all through my veryyyy expensive sound system. To watch the latest star wars and it act like watching an old Bruce Lee flick is out of the question. :mad:

Dont' cancel just yet ... :eek: If you've got a great sound system, doesn't your AVR have a delay function? Or does it only delay to a certain degree ... I've read at least a few posts in the xx67 forum where a 100ms delay got the owner close enough that it sync issues weren't really noticeable. Just a thought ...

Some of these posts about "blowing another TV away" are absolutely ridiculous. A 720P chip blowing away a 1080P chip? Maybe in your world. Have some of you guys actually seen these sets?

From another thread I posted:

I went to Ultimate Electronics this afternoon in Phoenix and they had the Qualia 006 in between the old JVC 720p Dila and the new Samsung 61" 1080P DLP set and then the older Mits 720P DLP. I have to say that the 1080P sets were in a league of their own. The difference was immediately noticeable in the detail of the images. Between the Samsung and the Qualia, I hate to say it, but the image was pretty comparable. The Sony has a nice square pixel structure while the 1080P DLP image uses Diamond pixels due to the wobulation.

I wouldn't say any one set blows away another set in the 1080P realm. In fact I really liked the illuminated Sony logo on the Qualia, much like my Sony SDM-P234 monitor, but I also liked the fact that Samsung offers a 67" set that's only 62.5" wide for 1/2 of the price of the Sony. More money left over to upgrade in a few years.

.

Dont' cancel just yet ... :eek: If you've got a great sound system, doesn't your AVR have a delay function? Or does it only delay to a certain degree ... I've read at least a few posts in the xx67 forum where a 100ms delay got the owner close enough that it sync issues weren't really noticeable. Just a thought ...


I really don't want to patch a problem manually with a $4K TV. And I Just don’t see how 1080i vs 1080p matters when the TV has been diagnosed with lip sync problems. The greatest TV on the planet is only as good as sound you can match it with. We can’t feed the TV and get a 5.1 out to our receivers. This was a deal stopper for me. I’ll take a little less impressive picture and good sound over an impressive picture that can’t keep up with the sound.
Bad thing is I really was pushing these TV and thought it was going to be fixed this issue. I'm sad mad and disapointed!!!! :confused: :mad: :(

I've yet to be convinced of this.

In general the more you upconvert the softer the image gets, unless some real time sharpening is applied.

Its going to be hard to for a wombled 960x540 or even 960x1080 chip to compete against a HD2+ V2 1280x720 rock solid image.

Most of the early posts on new sets have too much OH WOW in them.
It takes a while for excitement to wear down, and to see unbiased information.

Where does TI actually state they are using 960x1080 chips, in the white paper I read , it stated 960x540??Anything that wombles is not ideal.

You have "yet to be convinced of this" yet you haven't even seen one of these sets?

Go look at one and get back to us with your review. You are obviously somewhat skeptical, so I really would like to know what you think after you see one.

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to ask this, but if I pay $35 to be an AVS club member, does anyone know if I'd get that back in additional savings on the 6168 or 6768 power buy?

thanks again

Completely different animals.

The current power buy is for all AVS members.

The $35 lets you in on other "exclusive" powerbuys for club members only.

Ok, now I am getting worried! I placed my Power Buy on a 5668 a couple of weeks ago and now I am reading about people having problems with lip sync issues? What's this about? I will be using mine with a Pioneer Receiver. I currently have a Samsung HLN507W -- a 2003 model. I notice no issues with my current TV, I shouldn't notice anything on the new one, correct? Can someone that has a 5668 or a similar TV let me know if they have lip sync issues with their audio receiver?

Thanks!

I really don't want to patch a problem manually with a $4K TV. And I Just don’t see how 1080i vs 1080p matters when the TV has been diagnosed with lip sync problems. The greatest TV on the planet is only as good as sound you can match it with. We can’t feed the TV and get a 5.1 out to our receivers. This was a deal stopper for me.(

I have a Sammy hlp 6163, and occasionally I see some audio-video mismatch (lip sync), but only rarely. How can this be a problem of the set? Seems to me that it must be a problem with the source. Can any set dynamically adjust audio/video to sync them for an arbitrary input signal?

Also, so far as I'm aware, there is no set--1080p or 720p, from any manufacturer--that can pass 5.1 audio out from the TV when it is input to the TV from the source via HDMI. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) So why is this shortcoming laid specifically at Samsung's doorstep?

PCM only outputs at 2 Ch. The tv won't pass DTS.

I must say, I'm puzzled by this. In a previous life, I used to do digital set top boxes for a living and as far as I can tell there's no hardware reason why the set can't pass AC-3/DTS/etc. over the HDMI port. All the compressed formats can be encapsulated in IEC 61937 and passed over 2-channel I2S, S/PDIF, etc. The HMDI spec (and the Silicon Image part) also seem to support passing IEC 61937 through a two-channel info packet. All you would need to do is delay it in the ATI part (which it already does for PCM data) and then send it out the S/PDIF port. Seems like a simple matter of software to me... *shrug*

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to ask this, but if I pay $35 to be an AVS club member, does anyone know if I'd get that back in additional savings on the 6168 or 6768 power buy?

thanks again

The $35 a year is a way to support this forum. Additonally, it allows
you to sell your old gear and get in on special PowerBuys. It also
increases the of # of PMs you can store and increases the amount of
space to store images of your gear.

I've yet to be convinced of this.

In general the more you upconvert the softer the image gets, unless some real time sharpening is applied.

Its going to be hard to for a wombled 960x540 or even 960x1080 chip to compete against a HD2+ V2 1280x720 rock solid image.

Most of the early posts on new sets have too much OH WOW in them.
It takes a while for excitement to wear down, and to see unbiased information.

Where does TI actually state they are using 960x1080 chips, in the white paper I read , it stated 960x540??Anything that wombles is not ideal.You really need to go see a Samsung 1080P before you form a opinion...it just might change your thinking. ;)

Bleh. I just bought a new denon 2105/885 a couple months ago. Didn't know about this lip sync thing or I would have gotten the 2805/995 receiver instead. I'm really not looking forward to trying to ebay that thing and buy a new one without my wife noticing.

I would be delighted to join the club and send them my $35 by check. But they only take payment via Paypal, and I'm not into that.

Also, so far as I'm aware, there is no set--1080p or 720p, from any manufacturer--that can pass 5.1 audio out from the TV when it is input to the TV from the source via HDMI. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) So why is this shortcoming laid specifically at Samsung's doorstep?

It's just that this was a way people were saying we could over come lip Sync by come back out of the TV to the Receiver.

we just put out the 5668 at the store i work at in east hanover, nj and next to a fujitsu and pioneer elite plasma it holds its own. easily the best dlp i've seen

which store ? on route 10 ?

Cookie, it is my understanding that you don't have to pay anything to take advantage of the TVA powerbuy. I didn't. In fact, I don't know what the $35 will get you. Can anyone elaborate?

What did you do when it prompted you for your membership #.

What did you do when it prompted you for your membership #.

I don't remember it prompting me for a membership #. It asked me for my member id, which yours would be twp.

What did you do when it prompted you for your membership #.
What prompted you for a membership number?

I just went through the links starting in the powerbuy sticky at the top of the this forum's thread list. I was asked to "I certify that I am an AVS member." which I did by checking the box at the bottom of that page. Then I continued through the extra package offers and selected the HLR5668 for purchase. That put me into a shopping cart page with the powerbuy price for the HLR5668 included.

I'm not buying at this point so I did a "remove" instead of a "checkout".

Anyone who is a member of AVS is entitled to post messages and to participate in the TVA powerbuys.

Completely different animals.

The current power buy is for all AVS members.

The $35 lets you in on other "exclusive" powerbuys for club members only.

I may well send in $35 dollars some day just to support the site. Today, however, I just wanted to know if there was a special power buy for these xx68/78 models that I was missing.

This lip sync issue has got me worried.

It sounds like the issue is when you have the audio going from the tv to the AVR???

As per a previous suggestion, I will probably have my video from the stb and dvd going to the TV via HDMI and the audio directly from the stb and the dvd to my AVR via Digital Coaxial. Am I less likely to experience this lip sync problem???

-dreamr

This lip sync issue has got me worried.

It sounds like the issue is when you have the audio going from the tv to the AVR???

As per a previous suggestion, I will probably have my video from the stb and dvd going to the TV via HDMI and the audio directly from the stb and the dvd to my AVR via Digital Coaxial. Am I less likely to experience this lip sync problem???

-dreamr

I think this is what most people do. I do this with my hlp 6163. As stated above, I do see a lip sync problem occasionally, but only occasionally, and thus I attribute it to the source.

It has been suggested that the audio and video might be synced better if they both went into the tv directly, and then the audio were sent out from there to the AVR. I don't know whether this has been proved or is only speculation, but in any event it is a mute point since the tv won't pass 5.1 sound out to the AVR.

dreamr: No, you are more likely to experience the lip sync problem with that setup.

The stb/DVD player sends out the video and audio sync'd with the assumption that both will be delayed equally. The TV gets the video and spends tons of time processing it. The AVR gets the audio and processes it quickly. And because the TV doesn't touch the audio, it cannot possibly slow it down.

funny how the same issues that are three generations old with these TV's have not been adressed by samsung...

from the information I've read on this forum and others is the quality on samsungs sets are less then desirable...

I would be hesitant about purchasing the newest and greatest technology from a company that cannot even fix previous problems from their last models....

I am assuming the lip synch issue as a function of how long the DLP takes to process (scale) the picture? Do other brands exhibit the same behavior?

In my case, I plan on using a Cable Card, so I should not get this behavior unless using a DVD player. When using a DVD player, if it can outpout at 1080i, maybe this would reduce the delay (ie less processing for the tv)?

dreamr: No, you are more likely to experience the lip sync problem with that setup.

The stb/DVD player sends out the video and audio sync'd with the assumption that both will be delayed equally. The TV gets the video and spends tons of time processing it. The AVR gets the audio and processes it quickly. And because the TV doesn't touch the audio, it cannot possibly slow it down.

If this analysis were correct, then why wouldn't one have the lip sync problem all the time? I see it only occasionally, and not always form the same source (DVD, hd or non-hd tv). ???

HTWAITS: You are a long time Sammy dlp owner; do you, and how frequently do you observe lip sync problems?

I am assuming the lip synch issue as a function of how long the DLP takes to process (scale) the picture? Do other brands exhibit the same behavior?

In my case, I plan on using a Cable Card, so I should not get this behavior unless using a DVD player. When using a DVD player, if it can outpout at 1080i, maybe this would reduce the delay (ie less processing for the tv)?

Some DVD players had a build in audio delay function ... it is another option.

I find it very hard to believe that these machines would leave the design phase if they had such horrible lip sync problems. I plan to chill, put the set through its paces for about three weeks, and if I'm not 100% happy with it, send it back to TVA without 100 miliseconds of hesitation.

I really don't want to patch a problem manually with a $4K TV. And I Just don’t see how 1080i vs 1080p matters when the TV has been diagnosed with lip sync problems. The greatest TV on the planet is only as good as sound you can match it with. We can’t feed the TV and get a 5.1 out to our receivers. This was a deal stopper for me. I’ll take a little less impressive picture and good sound over an impressive picture that can’t keep up with the sound.
Bad thing is I really was pushing these TV and thought it was going to be fixed this issue. I'm sad mad and disapointed!!!! :confused: :mad: :(

Fair enough, I totally understand. Good luck!

The stb/DVD player sends out the video and audio sync'd with the assumption that both will be delayed equally. The TV gets the video and spends tons of time processing it. The AVR gets the audio and processes it quickly. And because the TV doesn't touch the audio, it cannot possibly slow it down.
I use a HTPC and send 720p directly to the DVI (HDMI would be the same) port on our HLP5063 and digital coax directly to the A/V Receiver. I do not have a sync problem with DVD material.

I think that a good upscaling DVD player outputting 1080i to HDMI ports on one of the 1080p Samsung sets should give you similar results. In any case, that's the kind of test I would look for from a new owner before I decided that there is a DVD sync problem.

It's well documented that all kinds of source material can have sync problems built in. That makes it hard, for me at least, to figure out where a particular sync problem is coming from. I have experienced sync problems on our direct view crt sets where there was no video processing involved. :confused:

I need to decide before the powerbuy runs out!! Will you owners hurry up and answer the unresolved issues from the first post! ;) Who is the first ISF callibrator scheduled to receive one of these units? I'd really like some serious nuts & bolts, in-depth reviews of these new Sammys.

I really don't want to patch a problem manually with a $4K TV. And I Just don’t see how 1080i vs 1080p matters when the TV has been diagnosed with lip sync problems. The greatest TV on the planet is only as good as sound you can match it with. We can’t feed the TV and get a 5.1 out to our receivers. This was a deal stopper for me. I’ll take a little less impressive picture and good sound over an impressive picture that can’t keep up with the sound.
Bad thing is I really was pushing these TV and thought it was going to be fixed this issue. I'm sad mad and disapointed!!!! :confused: :mad: :(

rlikeaduck, Don't blame the TV blame the industry. This says it better than I can.

http://news.designtechnica.com/talkback45.html

I couldn't find any manufacturer that is passing 5.1 audio through HDMI. If someone tells you a manufacturer can I would check it out first. Video delay is very common in the latest TVs. That is why many new receivers are being manufactured with audio delay circuits. You can also buy a separate audio delay device. I don't like it any more than you but I bit the bullet and bought one. The superb picture I am getting from my 6168 is too good to pass.

http://www.felston.com/dd540/index.htm

I have a question about "game mode". Apparently, naming a source "Game", turns "game mode" on. However, the manual says that game mode only supports 480i over component. I have a GameCube connected via component and would like to display the games in 480p (which is the best GameCube does). Am I right that this won't work in game mode? If so, does anyone have any thoughts as to why there is this limitation? What advantage does game mode provide? Was it different on the HLP models? Finally, would I be able to get around it (and view 480p) just by renaming the input? I tried searching, but couldn't find any answers.

Herc Driver -


I just chatted and posted with TVA (see powerbuy thread) about the lenght of the power buy. As some sizes/models have yet to ship, the countdown has not yet begun. There are still over 30 days left and should you be worried if you preorder, they assured me that you can defer at that time and maintain the price of the powerbuy, then call and confirm when you're set.

This peice of mind means that I'm going to order right now as well. And I agree, this is better kept in the PB thread, sorry guys, keep up the reviews.

http://www.felston.com/dd540/index.htm

Vandu: Thanks for the link to this product--it looks great! Just adds ~$230 to the cost of an AVR, not too bad if one has an AVR that lacks this feature but does everything else that one is interested in. Seems that one can program its remote into whichever main remote one uses; very neat, just as convenient as adjusting the volume.

Vandu: Thanks for the link to this product--it looks great! Just adds ~$230 to the cost of an AVR, not too bad if one has an AVR that lacks this feature but does everything else that one is interested in. Seems that one can program its remote into whichever main remote one uses; very neat, just as easy as adjusting the volume.

millerwill, I ordered one but I didn't have to. The lip sync delay I'm seeing with the 6168 isn't that bad. I've seen lip sync problems broadcast in the past that are many times worse.

Question on this lip sync issue...what happens if you have the DVD and stb running the HDMI outputs (or whatever output you choose) to a future receiver (lets say Pioneer 74VTXi)that has HDMI switching. Then run the one HDMI cable to the TV. Will this eliminate the lip sync or actually make it worse being the TV still has to do all of it's magic and the audio is already at the AVR? I am in the process of rebuilding my WHOLE system, so I'm trying to see what would work best to avoid this "lip sync" issue. Looking forward to seeing more results of testing. Thanks

millerwill, I ordered one but I didn't have to. The lip sync delay I'm seeing with the 6168 isn't that bad. I've seen lip sync problems broadcast in the past that are many times worse.

It's good to hear that sync isn't much of a problem for you. But this product should make it TOTALLY DISAPPEAR as an issue. Just as conveniently as changing the volume, one will be able to dial in PERFECT audio-video sync for any program. (And it will look neat sitting in the stand under the tv with the BFD and all the other toys!)

But But...... World of Warcraft in Widescreen Resolution = drool...
- D

Indeed. I've been playing WoW on the HTML507W DLP Sammy at 1280x720P, and it's absolutely gorgeous!

I will not upgrade to these new 1080p because of lack of Digital 1080p support. This wobulation technique is a hack, does not allow for 1:1 pixel mapping of 1920x1080. I will wait for the next gen.

- Sepia

Indeed. I've been playing WoW on the HTML507W DLP Sammy at 1280x720P, and it's absolutely gorgeous!

I will not upgrade to these new 1080p because of lack of Digital 1080p support. This wobulation technique is a hack, does not allow for 1:1 pixel mapping of 1920x1080. I will wait for the next gen.

- Sepia

You may be waiting a long time. When I spoke with the TI rep at the Home Entertainment Show in New York, he indicated that TI was developing a 1920x1080-mirror chip for front projectors, but that they feel that wobulation is the best solution for rear projection.

Steve

I didn't see anyone reporting getting a HLR XX78 series set outside of Tweeter and Magnolia. Is this true? If so, I might be one of the first here.

I should get my HLR6178W on Wednesday here in NoCal unless the shipping company is very mistaken (I made them read me the model number from the box!). So, XX78s are coming soon.

I will try a PC hookup with my new machine which has a nVidia 7800GTX installed and see what happens. It might take me a day to finish setup and PC testing before I can report.
Just scheduled delivery for my 5078 here in Ohio tomorrow afternoon. Will report back on as many things as I can during the setup and testing process.

You may be waiting a long time. When I spoke with the TI rep at the Home Entertainment Show in New York, he indicated that TI was developing a 1920x1080-mirror chip for front projectors, but that they feel that wobulation is the best solution for rear projection.

Steve

If there is a market for it, they will release it for rear projectors as well. Unless I am mistaken, and wobulation has nothing to do with the lack of digital 1080p on these sets, they will release, as some point, a chip that does not have it.

This is especially true if 1080p content becomes more prevelent (HD-DVD, Blue Ray, Sony PSIII etc...).

- SepiaM

Question on this lip sync issue...what happens if you have the DVD and stb running the HDMI outputs (or whatever output you choose) to a future receiver (lets say Pioneer 74VTXi)that has HDMI switching. Then run the one HDMI cable to the TV. Will this eliminate the lip sync or actually make it worse being the TV still has to do all of it's magic and the audio is already at the AVR? I am in the process of rebuilding my WHOLE system, so I'm trying to see what would work best to avoid this "lip sync" issue. Looking forward to seeing more results of testing. Thanks


The only thing you can do today for lip sync is buy a receiver with an audio delay built in or buy a separate audio delay box. HDMI inputs in a receiver will not do anything by themselves. The audio simply has to be delayed to match the delayed video. You also don’t have to do anything. My wife for example doesn’t find the lip sync we are getting with our 6168 an issue at all.
In the future manufactures will incorporate HDMI that will allow 5 or 6 channel audio to pass, which will allow the TV to delay the 5 or 6 channel audio to its output. No manufacturers are doing this through HDMI today that I am aware of.
The lip sync issue has been verified by many HLR 67 & 68 owners but other manufactures have the same problem. Your safest bet is to buy a receiver with the audio delay capability built in. I regret that the receiver I bought last year doesn’t have it so I ordered the Felston audio delay box.

If there is a market for it, they will release it for rear projectors as well. Unless I am mistaken, and wobulation has nothing to do with the lack of digital 1080p on these sets, they will release, as some point, a chip that does not have it.

This is especially true if 1080p content becomes more prevelent (HD-DVD, Blue Ray, Sony PSIII etc...).

- SepiaM

Have you seen the picture quality of these new sets, when fed an HD signal over HDMI? It's amazing compared to past TVs. It really leaves little to be desired. I only wish there was more HD programing, which is the real issue.

Have you seen the picture quality of these new sets, when fed an HD signal over HDMI? It's amazing compared to past TVs. It really leaves little to be desired. I only wish there was more HD programing, which is the real issue.

True, but I use my TV 85% of the time on a PC. That means that native resolution 1:1 pixel mapped is more important to me than anything else. I would love to see a comparison of a PQ from a PC at 720p on the old DLPs and 720p on these new sets, or 1080i on these new sets or 1080p on analog on these new sets. My guess is that it is not as good as 720p native digital.

I totally believe that the PQ of 1080i or 720p broadcast signals is very much improved...

- Sepia

I've been lurking and learning here over the past couple of months and much appreciate all the info from the gurus in this forum. About to pull the trigger on an HLR5078 but a little concerned over the audio sync issues, although not as much with the excellent info from Vandu on the workaround. Apparently HDMI will not pass 5.1, but will optical audio? Will the following connectin solve the 5.1 and sync issues?

DVD/STB--->component video--->HLR
DVD/STB--->optical audio--->HLR
HLR--->optical audio--->AVR

I recognize the loss in PQ not using HDMI, but just wondering if the above would theoretically work. Thanks again to all.

Thanks AkaStp, you did not misunderstand. I incorrectly assumed that, with all the inputs/outputs provided, optical audio out would be one of them. It is disappointing that lip sync still appears to still be an issue that requires an AVR with audio delay or the solution provided by vandu.

The lip synch delay problem keeps rearing its ugly head over and over again in this and other threads about the new Samsung HLR models. A while ago someone (UCSB, Administrator?) mentioned that he had it on good authority from a high-up contact at Samsung (Steve something in Marketing) that the new HLR models, especially the 68/78, would NOT have lip synch delay issues. This does not seem to be the case so perhaps whoever it was (UCSB, Administrator?) needs to bring this problem back to the attention of his contact at Samsung for commenting on.

We had received reports from Samsung at CES and HES that audio delay would not be a problem. I think we need to collect more info before declaring a problem.

We still have not answered basic questions like: if you use a upshifting DVD player connected at 1080i, will there be an audio delay? OR ... if you connect your HD STB up via HDMI and set the output to 1080i, is there a delay?

I will agree that there really are two levels to this problem. Non-gaming sync and gaming sync. I think we need to get another week or so of experience before forming any conclusions.

The lip synch delay problem

I was at Tweeter last night and they had a HL-R6178 on display next to an HLR-6167. I asked if they'd tried an XBOX/PS2 on it yet and if there was delay? They'd never heard of it, but one guy said he'd bring in his XBOX and try it.

The set was nice. But watching the store's feed side by side, the 78 was not noticeably 'better' than the 67.

We had received reports from Samsung at CES and HES that audio delay would not be a problem. I think we need to collect more info before declaring a problem.

We still have not answered basic questions like: if you use a upshifting DVD player connected at 1080i, will there be an audio delay? OR ... if you connect your HD STB up via HDMI and set the output to 1080i, is there a delay?

I will agree that there really are two levels to this problem. Non-gaming sync and gaming sync. I think we need to get another week or so of experience before forming any conclusions.

I have an SFA 8300 DVR connected to my 6168 through HDMI and my surround processor connected to the 8300 via optical. The TV confirms that it is receiving 1080i. If I have both the TV audio and the surround system on at the same time there is an echo.

Do other types of hdtv(lcd,d-ila) have a lipsync problem.

I think this is what most people do. I do this with my hlp 6163. As stated above, I do see a lip sync problem occasionally, but only occasionally, and thus I attribute it to the source.

It has been suggested that the audio and video might be synced better if they both went into the tv directly, and then the audio were sent out from there to the AVR. I don't know whether this has been proved or is only speculation, but in any event it is a mute point since the tv won't pass 5.1 sound out to the AVR.


if you look on page 26 of the manual for the 68 series it says that the optical output will pass thru dolby digital (DD) and pcm. i guess because it didn't specify that the DD pass thru is 5.1 than i guess it's possible it is passing thru DD 2.1 (left right and a sub).

is it possible for someone to test this? Make sure the TV is set to DD too! thanks

:confused: Someone earlier stated the HLR had no Optical connections - Input.

I checked the spec sheet for the 6768 and it identifies and AUDIO OPTICAL OUTPUT. Doesn't it make sense to connect the Optical (out) to the AVR to let it process the audio? Why would you send Optical to the TV since it has it's own built in SS?

Wouldn't we want the Audio to be processed either out from the TV or the STB to the AVR? Admittedly, I am not an Audiophile or wiring expert but why would an optical be send to the TV for sound if your using an AVR? Isn't this why Samsung only placed the Optical "OUT"? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong and it's not meant to be a criticism. Thanks -

Sure be glad when we have TV Feedback the LipSync has seemed to overwhelm this thread - I agree UCSB is correct in stating we need further testing and from an Audiophile Engineer - Perhaps Audioholics to confirm if this is a Samsung issue or a third party device issue - after all is every little hiccup the fault of Samsung? Is Samsung responsible for testing every AV product on the planet and making it compatible with everything? This isn't Windows OS and they provide SS built in and so are they culpable for an entire industries shortcomings? Is there a common thread with particular AVR's or everything? We'll see as many people are now getting their sets this week. :D

You really need to go see a Samsung 1080P before you form a opinion...it just might change your thinking. ;)


Looking forward to that day! They are MIA up here so far :(

I'm not a fan of the "womble" concept or previous incarnation,
and wish the many knowledgable people here would object to it more.

I mean 960x540/1080 = 1920x1080p, come on.

But if they are as amazing as some have`promoted` I'll gladly eat my words and become an owner. PC use with 1:1 pixel mapping at 60Hz is needed.

I have an SFA 8300 DVR connected to my 6168 through HDMI and my surround processor connected to the 8300 via optical. The TV confirms that it is receiving 1080i. If I have both the TV audio and the surround system on at the same time there is an echo.

Do you find the delay noticeable if you mute the TV audio?

Lipsync


If you have a digital source of video and audio...

And you send the video to one device to be decoded...
And the audio to another device to be decoded...

If there is any variance in how long each takes to do the two very different jobs...

There WILL be a "lipsync" error effect.


This is not the TVs fault. It is how it is all wired.


Audio decoding components will usually have the ability to delay the output of what they decode. As decoding audio is a simpler task than decoding the video, the audio is usually ready first. Delaying it by a hundred ms or two will cancel out the effect.

If you can send a copy of the audio to both devices, and listen for an echo effect, you can then easily adjust the delay on the audo-only side to minimize it. Then remove the audio feed to the video device and you are set.


Remember also that the end user isn't the only one with this issue. Content creators and broadcasters have to do the same things whenever the video and audio is separated. There are times with broadcasts have a built-in "lipsync" error due to miscalibration somewhere earlier in the data's life. It is usually not worth trying to compensate for on your end, however, since such mistakes are often rectified... Even in the middle of a program.


If you aren't content to let the TV's speakers be your only audio output, then you will have to deal with lipsync at some point no matter what your digital video device is. Or just ignore it.

Nonsanity :cool: Excellent common sense points you made. :D

Hey. Just got the Oppo DVD player and tried to connect it to the HDMI/DVI port on the Sammy 5678w. I get a Not Supported Mode message. It doesn't work. Has anyone had success with this DVD player and the new 1080p tvs?

I have an SFA 8300 DVR connected to my 6168 through HDMI and my surround processor connected to the 8300 via optical. The TV confirms that it is receiving 1080i. If I have both the TV audio and the surround system on at the same time there is an echo.

The echo will alway occur. You must either use your receiver for audio or the TV's speakers, but not both. Do you perceive a lip sync problem when ONLY the receiver audio is being used?

Hey. Just got the Oppo DVD player and tried to connect it to the HDMI/DVI port on the Sammy 5678w. I get a Not Supported Mode message. It doesn't work. Has anyone had success with this DVD player and the new 1080p tvs?

You might need to connect the player up with a s-video cable or component video cable and configure it, then bring up the properly configured HDMI connection.

I tried that. The DVI connection is started via the remote only. It's not in the setup menu. The Oppo DVD player shows an image via composite connection, but I get the Mode Not Supported message via the DVI connection (on all the resolutions).

The echo will alway occur. You must either use your receiver for audio or the TV's speakers, but not both. Do you perceive a lip sync problem when ONLY the receiver audio is being used?

Yes. Lip sync is only an issue, when the audio is coming from the receiver. I had both audios on only to verify that there is a difference. One other person on this thread said he measured the difference as 120ms. I can believe its of that order but I won't be able to confirm it until next week when I receive my audio delay device.

Edit: Switching the inputs too quickly can cause an even worse lip sync problem.

"Perhaps Audioholics to confirm if this is a Samsung issue or a third party device issue - after all is every little hiccup the fault of Samsung? Is Samsung responsible for testing every AV product on the planet and making it compatible with everything? This isn't Windows OS and they provide SS built in and so are they culpable for an entire industries shortcomings? Is there a common thread with particular AVR's or everything? We'll see as many people are now getting their sets this week."

Westa,

Yes. The lip sync issue is Samsung's problem. Every HDTV vendor knows that typically their users will use AVR for sound and external STB/DVD as input. They also know that the source material has video and audio sync'd. As soon as their video processing started taking more than a couple fields of delay, Samsung created the lip sync problem.

Only the TV knows how much delay is being inserted by video processing in various modes, and therefore only the TV can add delay to the audio feeding the AVR. Samsung should have 5.1 sync'd passthru on HDMI to optical and it should have optical to optical sync'd passthru corresponding to all component inputs.

Their engineers know this, but probably management decided to save the $3 in extra parts. I first became aware of lip sync when my company had to fix DVD playback problems on a laptop about seven years ago. It's not a secret in the AV industry how to properly deal with these issues. Just nobody has decided to spend the extra money to do it right yet.

Just curious to get more information on this lip synch problem. I understand that it is the result of additional video processing causing a delay in the picture, whereas the audio from the receiver is slightly ahead.

What I have read is some experiencing it and some not, and some not all the time.

Just curious what Input resolution (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i) are you experiencing lip synch on? Also, what kind of cable (HDMI, Component, S-Video)?

You may have different results on 1080i/HDMI vs. 480p component.

Hey. Just got the Oppo DVD player and tried to connect it to the HDMI/DVI port on the Sammy 5678w. I get a Not Supported Mode message. It doesn't work. Has anyone had success with this DVD player and the new 1080p tvs?I just received my OPPO last week...I was waiting to match it to a 6768 if it ever gets shipped...I hope you can figure it out...if not please call OPPO and let us know what they say...I have 30 days to return...Thanks

I tried that. The DVI connection is started via the remote only. It's not in the setup menu. The Oppo DVD player shows an image via composite connection, but I get the Mode Not Supported message via the DVI connection (on all the resolutions).Maybe you should post this issue in the OPPO thread in the Standard DVD Players forum...it could be you have a bad HDMI/DVI cable...it happens.

No. The Mode Not Supported message is a TV-related issue. I called Samsung and they are aware of the problem. They're going to give me a call back tomorrow. The tier 2 technician I spoke to said he got an email from his boss regarding Mode Not Supported messages occuring for no logical reason. There might be a firmware upgrade, but I'll know more tomorrow. For now, it does not seem to be the Oppo product.

For now, it does not seem to be the Oppo product.
It wouldn't hurt to share information with your fellow Oppo owners in the SD DVD forum.

No. The Mode Not Supported message is a TV-related issue. I called Samsung and they are aware of the problem. They're going to give me a call back tomorrow. The tier 2 technician I spoke to said he got an email from his boss regarding Mode Not Supported messages occuring for no logical reason. There might be a firmware upgrade, but I'll know more tomorrow. For now, it does not seem to be the Oppo product.I just posted this problem in the OPPO thread...oh well please let us know what takes place.

[QUOTE=westa6969]:confused: Someone earlier stated the HLR had no Optical connections - Input.

Westa6969
Do you know if the Yamaha YSP-1 has audio delay?

okay since it seems that there is a chance we will suffer from audio delay, what is a good recommendation for an inexpensive a/v receiver that support audio delays, has hdmi inputs and is silver? of course, black will be accepted if the price is right.

i'm leaning towards yamaha because of the auto calibration feature.

GATOR1 -
I presently have the YSP-1 broadcasting the TV Sound - as I cannot locate an optical out on my Sharp LCD FP I have it working through the composite Audio which is not delivering the 5.1 it's supposed to - but the dialogue on it gives a big sound with the Orb Sub connected that will most certainly match the big looks of the 6768 also but right now it's doing a simulation of 5.1 Neo Cinema Music sounds the best so far at least till I get digital feeds. Once I get the 6768 I'll be able to truly test the digital via Optical and test for Lip Sync - hopefully I'll have it within the next couple of weeks as the 67" is shipping later.

I do have my new Samsung 950 that I got last week connected HDMI to my Sharp and I have yet to observe lip sync or macroblocking and it does a great upconversion to 1080i. I've had folks ask me to test it but to me testing is selecting the settings removing the letterbox and to me it has great PQ and I like the fact I can get rid of the black bars with very little noticable reduction in PQ and I just watch - the remote is quite different from my Sony DVD but it's been moved to the bedroom for my wifes use - can't wait to see what the 950can do on the 6768 though. :D

We love you, too, gazelle .... XOXOXO

I have an SFA 8300 DVR connected to my 6168 through HDMI and my surround processor connected to the 8300 via optical. The TV confirms that it is receiving 1080i. If I have both the TV audio and the surround system on at the same time there is an echo.
Can the difference in audio between the two paths also be a function, at least in part, of the DVR? Or am I way off base here?

Can anyone repeat the same test with a different brand of DVR?

The OPPO is fine. This is just another of those minor "bugs" like lip sync, no dolby 5.1 processing, etc. that is specific to Samsung DLPs. Don't worry, smile. Be happy. Listen to all the Samsung plants here. They'll tell you how much better Samsung DLP's are than the competition. Not....The CEO of JVC strikes again ;)

GAZELLE ?????????

Since when is it a crime to like the TV you've decided to buy - this is an Owners thread not a Snipers thread?

I haven't observed people on the Sammy threads bashing the competition - in fact most have a lot of respect for Qualia006 but at a premium 3-4 times the money of course and other competition 1080P may be as good or better but aren't even available for several months from now to make such a comparison. If you commit to a purchase of course you will share and root for the good in your decision but I rarely see anyone bashing other TV companies by Samsung buyers here.

Because we may like the Samsung doesn't mean we're bashing Toshiba, Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Panasonic, Sony and as for JVC their QC speaks for itself over the past 18 months - that is not bashing - that is researchable facts on this forum as I was part of the 720P PB back in March but the feedback and the QC issues were unacceptable and I changed my mind but that is not bashing. Besides with a 5 star return option if your correct in your never ending criticisms of Samsung then by all means it's undoable and perhaps Toshiba may be available by then or something else - we all have an escape clause with TVA 5 star program. What else besides the 1080P has JVC built into their next generation? That's a question not a BASH they need more than 1080P to make up for some of the inherent weaknesses , like Blacks. Good Day! :D

The OPPO is fine. This is just another of those minor "bugs" like lip sync, no dolby 5.1 processing, etc. that is specific to Samsung DLPs. Don't worry, smile. Be happy. Listen to all the Samsung plants here. They'll tell you how much better Samsung DLP's are than the competition. Not....

Does other sets with HDMI input pass 5.1 through the tv to the AVR? I would sincerely be interrested to know if there are.

My new Samsung HLR5688W finally arrived late this afternoon. All I can say based on first impressions to this point... WOW!!! I never before I ever seen any picture even close to the quality of this masterpiece. It's breath taking image using Direct TV with a 1080i input throught HDMI and upconverted to 1080p is out of this world beautiful. And the sets awesome contrast ratio does give a sort of 3D look to many of the HD channels as I have read others comment about. As it's only day one with my new baby I plan to begin running it through many tests using all inputs. Hopefully, sometime tomorrow afternoon or evening I will be able post a much more in-depth breakdown of my initial experience along with many photos of my new 'Capt. Kirk' 88 series. :cool:

Does other sets with HDMI input pass 5.1 through the tv to the AVR? I would sincerely be interrested to know if there are.

I don't know of any that DON'T. Maybe someone else does? Mitsubishi, Toshiba, JVC, and Sony all do. As long as the TV is has a Dolby Decoder built in, it will.

Lipsync


If you have a digital source of video and audio...

And you send the video to one device to be decoded...
And the audio to another device to be decoded...

If there is any variance in how long each takes to do the two very different jobs...

There WILL be a "lipsync" error effect.


This is not the TVs fault. It is how it is all wired.

The product that Vandu pointed out, the Felston DD540 Digital Audio Delay, provides a very simple and easy to use solution provided it's worth $230 to you. This may very well be less an increment than it would cost you for an AVR that does the job and has many more bells and whistles than you want.

Does other sets with HDMI input pass 5.1 through the tv to the AVR? I would sincerely be interrested to know if there are.I don't know of any that DON'T. Maybe someone else does? Mitsubishi, Toshiba, JVC, and Sony all do. As long as the TV is has a Dolby Decoder built in, it will.
AND... they all do 1-to-1 pixel mapping at 1080p! :D

AND... none of them exhibit any lip sync problems! :D :D

AND... they were all shipping before Samsung! :D :D :D

AND... don't you just love Giselle's posts?! :D :D :D :D

I am confused are you saying the 5 star program allows us to return a set whenever ala costco??

The CEO of JVC strikes again ;)
Maybe the janitor.

Damn - I really and starting to dislike gazelles posts. I think he/she has some great information and points but rather than being constructive and providing non-biased advice, it is always just the opposite. That being said:

Regarding lip sync - I would be curious how much the receiver has to play in this issue. I read one poster already stating that when the source goes directly to the TV - there is little to no delay. Regardless - I have a denon 3805 and hopefully that can correct audio/video lag. That is what audio receivers are supposed to do anyway.

Regarding the 1080P input issue - I am not sure why anyone is complaining about this. The only consumer product I know capable of outputting 1080P is a computer, which Samsung supports through the VGA port. Other than that, the first consumer based 1080P output devices are schedule sometime next year. It is my guess that at that time Samsung and other manufactures will be able to support 1080P across all digital inputs.

Finally - everything comes down to cost and perceived value. DLP to me is the best value for price point. Yes - the technology has it flaws but so does all of the alternatives. I really appreciate those owners who have continued to give us "future owners" feed back and comments and concerns. I also appreciate those technophiles who help with constructive criticism, work around and solutions.

Keep up the good work...

Maybe the janitor.

I don't kow what JVC is paying Gazelle but it can't be much...

I am confused are you saying the 5 star program allows us to return a set whenever ala costco??

TVA 5 star program gives you 30 days to return the product for what amounts to store credit to a equal or greater value solution

Finally - everything comes down to cost and perceived value. DLP to me is the best value for price point. Yes - the technology has it flaws but so does all of the alternatives. I really appreciate those owners who have continued to give us "future owners" feed back and comments and concerns. I also appreciate those technophiles who help with constructive criticism, work around and solutions.

Keep up the good work...
Well said, Todd!

I am confused are you saying the 5 star program allows us to return a set whenever ala costco??
You can return a set for any reason for the first 30 days, but you pay the shipping. If the set is defective they send a replacement and pick up the first set at no extra charge to you. At least that's what I understand. :)

I just posted this problem in the OPPO thread...oh well please let us know what takes place.


I called Samsung. Apparently there IS an issue with the 1080p sets. I'll know more tomorrow.

Folks: while I appreciate everyones posts on lip sync and delay, what we REALLY need is a few of very technical types to run this issue to ground. How much lip sync is there, will a fixed amount of delay solve the problem and what sort of audio is transmitted through the optical output? We need facts and figures.

Looks like Samsung has done a fantastic job with the picture quality.

Sounds like they have royally screwed up on the audio. I should not have to buy another gadget to make a $4000 TV work properly. My wife would go crazy if she had to change those settings as she changed channels and source material. And, I sure as H*** would hear about it.

I will suggest that the lip sync jury is still out, but we have strong indications what the findings will be!! If Samsung screwed up, and something like lip sync at this stage of TV evolution is a major screw up in my strong opinion, I will wait to find out what the other companies come out with in the next several months. Surely, one of them is "smart" enough to solve the lip sync problem.

okay since it seems that there is a chance we will suffer from audio delay, what is a good recommendation for an inexpensive a/v receiver that support audio delays, has hdmi inputs and is silver? of course, black will be accepted if the price is right.

i'm leaning towards yamaha because of the auto calibration feature.

I believe that the Yamaha receivers have a global audio delay setting. Models from Denon and H/K that have that have that feature, on the other hand, have an audio delay setting that can be individualized by input. In my view that is a big advantage.

I recently ordered a Denon 985S from Costco.com. With Costco's liberal return policy I can return in if I do not like it.

I called Samsung. Apparently there IS an issue with the 1080p sets. I'll know more tomorrow.Thanks for the reply...I hope they figure out what the problem is real soon.

ToddL Regarding the 1080P input issue - I am not sure why anyone is complaining about this. The only consumer product I know capable of outputting 1080P is a computer, which Samsung supports through the VGA port.

It's been announced over the past week in the IT Field that it's expected that broadband would be able to be increased by 50 times current cable modems - 100Mbits per second - pushed to Televisions.

Combine the true potential of Xbox360 which is planned to become far more that just a gaming system - link the bandwidth to 1080P through the 360 into the TV. Can HTPC and IT folks see the potential of what Bill Gates said he wanted to make the computer the entertainment center - a 360 and a 1080P TV and Broadband streaming into the TV = a way to broadcast 1080P through that bandwidth. Xbox and PS3 are being built as far more than Game Systems. Could this be the missing link to 1080P if the PC has the capability? The Xbox 360 is a high powered PC with networking built in or capable.

Compliments to Pushtar on his 5688 and Feedback - Thank you very MUCH!

Folks: while I appreciate everyones posts on lip sync and delay, what we REALLY need is a few of very technical types to run this issue to ground. How much lip sync is there, will a fixed amount of delay solve the problem and what sort of audio is transmitted through the optical output? We need facts and figures.

Looks like Samsung has done a fantastic job with the picture quality.

Sounds like they have royally screwed up on the audio. I should not have to buy another gadget to make a $4000 TV work properly. My wife would go crazy if she had to change those settings as she changed channels and source material. And, I sure as H*** would hear about it.

I will suggest that the lip sync jury is still out, but we have strong indications what the findings will be!! If Samsung screwed up, and something like lip sync at this stage of TV evolution is a major screw up in my strong opinion, I will wait to find out what the other companies come out with in the next several months. Surely, one of them is "smart" enough to solve the lip sync problem.

No, they all are....

Gazelle, you are really juvenille.

Personally, I have ALWAYS been a Sony man. Had everything Sony. On my 4th Sony TV. I bought a Sony SAT-HD300 and learned it was made by LG. Then I bought a 23" Sony computer monitor for $2,000 (SDM-P234). Guess what, I took the back off and it's made by Samsung. Sony and Samsung have a joint LCD panel plant in Korea. Samsung makes stuff for Sony.

While I understand that Samsung is in a different market niche than Sony likes to play, it unfair to bash them. They make most of the computer LCD panels out there today.

Just in case I need to return my Oppo player (which I doubt, since the first DVD player, Toshiba sd5980, I connected didn't work either through HDMI), does anyone know of any upconverting DVD players that DEFINITELY work, via HDMI, with these 1080p models?

I don't know of any that DON'T. Maybe someone else does? Mitsubishi, Toshiba, JVC, and Sony all do. As long as the TV is has a Dolby Decoder built in, it will.

The last time you said this, I referred to this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5913012&&#post5913012

which says that existing Mitsubishi LCD models don't pass 5.1 through HDMI, and pointed out that the Mitsubishi DLP manual for the current model also doesn't mention passing through 5.1 from HDMI. Do you have a link to other information that contradicts this?

Looking forward to that day! They are MIA up here so far :(

I'm not a fan of the "womble" concept or previous incarnation,
and wish the many knowledgable people here would object to it more.

I mean 960x540 = 1080p, come on.

But if they are as amazing as some have`promoted` I'll gladly eat my words and become an owner. PC use with 1:1 pixel mapping at 60Hz is needed.


You keep saying 960x540 everything I can find says 960x1080. Don't know that I realy care if it is displaying 1080p on screen but would like to know what is correct.

I'm way behind on reading this thread so I apologize if this issue has been answered completely or pounded into the groung by now, but here is what I have noticed on my 6168.

NO lip sync issues on any DVD's. Every one is perfect (or so close that I can't tell). This is from a standard progressive scan player thru component. I will be getting an upconverting player tomorrow so I will see if there are any issues thru HDMI.

On DirecTV I have not noticed any problem on any SD station. HD stations have ranged from fine to very mildly off such that you don't notice unless you look for it. (Too much knowlede can be a dangerous thing). The one big exception is Discovery HD which is so far off that you can't watch it unless it's just animals with a voice over. Cleary a source issue not a TV one I would think.

This raises 2 questions. Why would this be with this set but Disocovery HD seemed ok (if I remember correctly) on my old 57" Toshiba. Also, does it make sense that there is some lip sync problem with HD sources that should need less processing by the TV and none with SD sources that needs more processing?

I believe that the Yamaha receivers have a global audio delay setting. Models from Denon and H/K that have that have that feature, on the other hand, have an audio delay setting that can be individualized by input. In my view that is a big advantage.

My impression is that AVR's that have audio delay capabilites are typically more than a $1000 (or considerably more); is this right? I think I would prefer to have an AVR in the $500 category (which does everything I need) and then pony up another $230 for the Felston Audio Delay unit that does the audio delay function in a first class fashion. Just an opinion.

Folks: while I appreciate everyones posts on lip sync and delay, what we REALLY need is a few of very technical types to run this issue to ground. How much lip sync is there, will a fixed amount of delay solve the problem and what sort of audio is transmitted through the optical output? We need facts and figures.

Looks like Samsung has done a fantastic job with the picture quality.

Sounds like they have royally screwed up on the audio. I should not have to buy another gadget to make a $4000 TV work properly. My wife would go crazy if she had to change those settings as she changed channels and source material. And, I sure as H*** would hear about it.

I will suggest that the lip sync jury is still out, but we have strong indications what the findings will be!! If Samsung screwed up, and something like lip sync at this stage of TV evolution is a major screw up in my strong opinion, I will wait to find out what the other companies come out with in the next several months. Surely, one of them is "smart" enough to solve the lip sync problem.

Audio Delay has been an issue with Samsung DLP sets since 2003 when the HLNs were introduced. There were few, if any, reports of audio delay for the earlier HLM models. In my case I had an original HLM and never noticed audio delay. However, after I participated in the Samsung upgrade in 2003 (the upgrade essentially made the HLM a HLN) I started noticing audio delay.

Over the years there have been many threads and much discussion of the issue, but the exact cause of the delay has never been identified to every one's satisfaction. Some members reported audio delay on several inputs, others only on 480i inputs and others reported no delay on any input.

After attempting to repair the audio delay on my HLM four times over nearly two years, Samsung replaced it with an HLP. That set also suffers from audio delay.

I believe the best approach to audio delay is to purchase a receiver with the audio delay function or add a device like the Felston DD540.

My impression is that AVR's that have audio delay capabilites are typically more than a $1000 (or considerably more); is this right? I think I would prefer to have an AVR in the $500 category (which does everything I need) and then pony up another $230 for the Felston Audio Delay unit that does the audio delay function in a first class fashion. Just an opinion.

Check out the Denon 985S or the H/K 435 on the Costco.com web site. You will find they are within your price range.

Hi folks. A few months ago I spoke to customer service at Samsung and was told that they recommended that there be 4 inches of space on either side of their DLP sets for air circulation. For those of us who plan to place their set in a cabinet, this means a heck of a lot of possibly wasted space. Do you believe them? To do it would mean that one would have to severely reduce the size of the set.

Just in case I need to return my Oppo player (which I doubt, since the first DVD player, Toshiba sd5980, I connected didn't work either through HDMI), does anyone know of any upconverting DVD players that DEFINITELY work, via HDMI, with these 1080p models?

I'll be picking up my Samsung DVD-HD950 on the way home tomorrow, a couple hours before I receive my 5078. I'll report back in the afternoon or evening how the two interact over both HDMI and component.

It's me again regarding the Oppo DVD. I just tried connecting it to my Sammy 22" LCD, also to no avail. There's no picture on any of the resolutions, which leads me to believe that this may be a defective unit (I used a different DVI cable too).

Hello All,
I have been following this post because I'm considering purchasing a XX68 series Samsung TV and I'm also concerned about the sync problem. I was wondering if someone could comment on the HDMI input and copy protection. I thought the reason behind the HDMI wasn't really because of quality but that of Hollywood wanting to encrypt HD sources. Seems that decrypting would consume more processing so would that create a delay in the video stream?Meaning that the audio isn't encrypted but the video is and that extra process would cause a minor delay between the two if not processed entirely by the TV. I'm no expert so if anyone would care to comment and shed some light I'll listen.
Thanks!! :D

My new Samsung HLR5688W finally arrived late this afternoon. All I can say based on first impressions to this point... WOW!!! I never before I ever seen any picture even close to the quality of this masterpiece. It's breath taking image using Direct TV with a 1080i input throught HDMI and upconverted to 1080p is out of this world beautiful. And the sets awesome contrast ratio does give a sort of 3D look to many of the HD channels as I have read others comment about. As it's only day one with my new baby I plan to begin running it through many tests using all inputs. Hopefully, sometime tomorrow afternoon or evening I will be able post a much more in-depth breakdown of my initial experience along with many photos of my new 'Capt. Kirk' 88 series. :cool:

I envy you! you hippie (woodstock, NY) :p

Please put that baby through the tests & post Pics of your setup if possible.
I'm so pissed that samsung has yet to release this model to the public via the local retail chains off/Online. :mad:

Just a couple more wks of waiting for me I guess. This is torture.

Audio Delay has been an issue with Samsung DLP sets since 2003 when the HLNs were introduced.
The delay that causes the problem is video delay resulting from image processing of one kind or other both in the source and in the HDTV. The solution is to delay audio so that the video can catch up. It's confusing to refer to the problem as "Audio Delay". Here is the original thread on the problem.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=295677&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

It's title is:

Video delay on the HLN Samsung DLP (Old Sound delay thread)

You keep saying 960x540 everything I can find says 960x1080. Don't know that I realy care if it is displaying 1080p on screen but would like to know what is correct.

Fair enough,
I've seen both mentioned and the product sheets don't seem to detail it for the Samsung sets.

Anyhow here's a post with an attachment that goes into detail:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5891147&&#post5891147

It mentions distinct pairs, 960 x 540, black and white, which may be the source of confusion.

ToddL

It's been announced over the past week in the IT Field that it's expected that broadband would be able to be increased by 50 times current cable modems - 100Mbits per second - pushed to Televisions.

Combine the true potential of Xbox360 which is planned to become far more that just a gaming system - link the bandwidth to 1080P through the 360 into the TV. Can HTPC and IT folks see the potential of what Bill Gates said he wanted to make the computer the entertainment center - a 360 and a 1080P TV and Broadband streaming into the TV = a way to broadcast 1080P through that bandwidth. Xbox and PS3 are being built as far more than Game Systems. Could this be the missing link to 1080P if the PC has the capability? The Xbox 360 is a high powered PC with networking built in or capable.

Compliments to Pushtar on his 5688 and Feedback - Thank you very MUCH!

I am almost positive that the Xbox is only supporting 480p, 480i, 720p, 1080i resolutions

http://hardware.gamespot.com/Story-ST-x-1985-x-x-x

Which brings me to my point which I made in another thread: I would assume that being first to market and keeping cost down, Samsung focused on supporting what was currently available and not speculation on what "might" be available.

Yes - I believe sometime in 2006 we will see true 1080P DLP TV because Sony has already committed components that will output that source. But about the same time the 2006 models are released, we will hear rumors about a new advancement that will make people think about waiting until 2007. It never ends. Our best hope is to make an informed decision of what is the best value for our dollar today...

:cool:

I'm way behind on reading this thread so I apologize if this issue has been answered completely or pounded into the groung by now, but here is what I have noticed on my 6168.

NO lip sync issues on any DVD's. Every one is perfect (or so close that I can't tell). This is from a standard progressive scan player thru component. I will be getting an upconverting player tomorrow so I will see if there are any issues thru HDMI.

On DirecTV I have not noticed any problem on any SD station. HD stations have ranged from fine to very mildly off such that you don't notice unless you look for it. (Too much knowlede can be a dangerous thing). The one big exception is Discovery HD which is so far off that you can't watch it unless it's just animals with a voice over. Cleary a source issue not a TV one I would think.

This raises 2 questions. Why would this be with this set but Disocovery HD seemed ok (if I remember correctly) on my old 57" Toshiba. Also, does it make sense that there is some lip sync problem with HD sources that should need less processing by the TV and none with SD sources that needs more processing?

Hi Tuna,

The issue seems to be mainly with video games. If you have an Xbox or PS2, and have a game with a lot of fast action that will chew up the Dnie video processor, I understand that audio gets out of sync. Havent tried it myself. It really bums me out, since Samsung is my favorite otherwise. My next choise is last years Mits 52725, unless they have a 1080P model coming out. Do they have one I dont know about? I hear Tosh makes a great set, but I dont have room for the side speakers.

Dave

I'm way behind on reading this thread so I apologize if this issue has been answered completely or pounded into the groung by now, but here is what I have noticed on my 6168.

NO lip sync issues on any DVD's. Every one is perfect (or so close that I can't tell). This is from a standard progressive scan player thru component. I will be getting an upconverting player tomorrow so I will see if there are any issues thru HDMI.

On DirecTV I have not noticed any problem on any SD station. HD stations have ranged from fine to very mildly off such that you don't notice unless you look for it. (Too much knowlede can be a dangerous thing). The one big exception is Discovery HD which is so far off that you can't watch it unless it's just animals with a voice over. Cleary a source issue not a TV one I would think.

This raises 2 questions. Why would this be with this set but Disocovery HD seemed ok (if I remember correctly) on my old 57" Toshiba. Also, does it make sense that there is some lip sync problem with HD sources that should need less processing by the TV and none with SD sources that needs more processing?

My 6168 was delivered today, and is now hooked up and running. I have HDMI 1 linked from my Motorola 6412 dual-tuner DVR STB, and HDMI 2 coming from my new sammy 950 DVD. Digital coax and optical to the receiver. As stated above, lip sync is noticeable on the Discovery Channel, but oh boy what a picture! We watched "Hitched" on the DVD player tonight and didn't notice any lip sync.

My receiver is a Yamaha and I will play around with the audio delay when I get a chance.

I have an Olivia 30" LCD and it has lip sync issues depending on source, and at times have noticed the same on my 55" 4-year -old Mitsubishi rear-projection.

So it seems to me that this lip sync issue is very dependent on all kinds of factors, and it will not keep me from enjoying my new TV at all. The colors, brightness, and resolution are outstanding using factory defaults, and I don't think I will even bother with purchasing a calibration disc. When the winter gets here and I'm bored I may tinker with the settings a bit, and maybe by then there will be more input on what others have found works best.

My impression is that AVR's that have audio delay capabilites are typically more than a $1000 (or considerably more); is this right? I think I would prefer to have an AVR in the $500 category (which does everything I need) and then pony up another $230 for the Felston Audio Delay unit that does the audio delay function in a first class fashion. Just an opinion.

My Yamaha 5760 has audio delay but it is for all inputs not individually. I bought the 5760 over the internet for less than $400. Great sound and features. Audio delay for each input would be a better solution though.

Wow, I've read through some of the threads and this issue dates back to 2003. Samsung has surely dropped the ball if they have not corrected this problem by now. Anyone who is considering dropping 3 to 4K on one of these sets would be risky IMHO at this point. I'll wait on the other Sonys, JVCs and Mits to get into the stores before deciding. Good luck to all that have rolled the dice on the Sammys.

Fair enough,
I've seen both mentioned and the product sheets don't seem to detail it for the Samsung sets.

Anyhow here's a post with an attachment that goes into detail:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5891147&&#post5891147

It mentions distinct pairs, 960 x 540, black and white, which may be the source of confusion.
There is no indication that the referenced document is describing the wabulated 1080p chip. TI makes many different DLP chip configurations. I'm not an engineer so it's only my impression from reading every DLP message that I have found for the past three years that the xHD3 and it's current successor have 960 x 1080 mirrors. This configuration does a two way horizontal flop so that each mirror controls two pixels on the screen.

HP who came up with the idea for color printers has a process that does a four way flop. Maybe TI has a chip doing that too, but I don't think it's in the current 1080p wobulated models coming to market this year.

Wow, I've read through some of the threads and this issue dates back to 2003.
You are a very fast reader. :-}

I'm way behind on reading this thread so I apologize if this issue has been answered completely or pounded into the groung by now, but here is what I have noticed on my 6168.

NO lip sync issues on any DVD's. Every one is perfect (or so close that I can't tell). This is from a standard progressive scan player thru component. I will be getting an upconverting player tomorrow so I will see if there are any issues thru HDMI.

On DirecTV I have not noticed any problem on any SD station. HD stations have ranged from fine to very mildly off such that you don't notice unless you look for it. (Too much knowlede can be a dangerous thing). The one big exception is Discovery HD which is so far off that you can't watch it unless it's just animals with a voice over. Cleary a source issue not a TV one I would think.

This raises 2 questions. Why would this be with this set but Disocovery HD seemed ok (if I remember correctly) on my old 57" Toshiba. Also, does it make sense that there is some lip sync problem with HD sources that should need less processing by the TV and none with SD sources that needs more processing?

I noticed Discovery Hd was way off on a 32" tv being fed by my Samsung sir-160.

The OPPO is fine. This is just another of those minor "bugs" like lip sync, no dolby 5.1 processing, etc. that is specific to Samsung DLPs. Don't worry, smile. Be happy. Listen to all the Samsung plants here. They'll tell you how much better Samsung DLP's are than the competition. Not....

Ok gazelle, I've been pretty much non-caring about your posts up until now and dismiss them as argumentative.... But that post is a complete and utter troll. It contributes nothing to the topic at hand, offers no helpful advice, and purely insults Samsung owners, potential Samsung Owners, and the posters here at AVS.

I understand you have your opinions, KEEP THEM TO YOURSELF. If they're unbiased and helpful or technical opinions, fine share them, but keep your childish comments to yourself please.

I'm not overly fond of certain programming languages, that doesn't mean I won't try and help someone when they ask. This forum is meant to help, keep your personal devil in your pocket.

Now get back on topic everyone :)

- D

There is no indication that the referenced document is describing the wabulated 1080p chip. ...


It mentions reducing costs by using 1/2 the number of mirrors in a diamond configuration with a optical actuator. Is that different from womblation?

In the end its the image that matters, and lasts years cost reduced diamond grid sets had a softer image than the full array HD2+ sets. I'm concerned similar cost reduced '1080p' sets will lack compared to true 1920x1080 devices.

There is no indication that the referenced document is describing the wabulated 1080p chip. TI makes many different DLP chip configurations. I'm not an engineer so it's only my impression from reading every DLP message that I have found for the past three years that the xHD3 and it's current successor have 960 x 1080 mirrors. This configuration does a two way horizontal flop so that each mirror controls two pixels on the screen.

HP who came up with the idea for color printers has a process that does a four way flop. Maybe TI has a chip doing that too, but I don't think it's in the current 1080p wobulated models coming to market this year.

I believe the document describes the xHD3 chip. The Samsung DLPs we
are receiving have the xHD4 chip. Not sure of the exact differences other
the xHD4 is suppose to be faster with much better blacks and much higher CR.

The document also states that the TI DLP can display the entire 1920x1080
resolution using *half* the mirrors. I believe the document also states
that the row pairs have two distinct mirrors ( making it a 960x1080 mirror grid ).

My 6168 was delivered today, and is now hooked up and running. I have HDMI 1 linked from my Motorola 6412 dual-tuner DVR STB, and HDMI 2 coming from my new sammy 950 DVD. Digital coax and optical to the receiver. As stated above, lip sync is noticeable on the Discovery Channel, but oh boy what a picture! We watched "Hitched" on the DVD player tonight and didn't notice any lip sync.

My receiver is a Yamaha and I will play around with the audio delay when I get a chance.

I have an Olivia 30" LCD and it has lip sync issues depending on source, and at times have noticed the same on my 55" 4-year -old Mitsubishi rear-projection.

So it seems to me that this lip sync issue is very dependent on all kinds of factors, and it will not keep me from enjoying my new TV at all. The colors, brightness, and resolution are outstanding using factory defaults, and I don't think I will even bother with purchasing a calibration disc. When the winter gets here and I'm bored I may tinker with the settings a bit, and maybe by then there will be more input on what others have found works best.

Just curious -- for those who maybe don't understand this entire issue -- does this only happen between the TV and AV Receiver and not on the TV itself? In other words, if you use the sets internal audio, is there any synch issues -- is the audio coming out of the TV speakers in synch with the picture?

Just curious -- for those who maybe don't understand this entire issue -- does this only happen between the TV and AV Receiver and not on the TV itself? In other words, if you use the sets internal audio, is there any synch issues -- is the audio coming out of the TV speakers in synch with the picture?


The tv's internal speaker is fine unless it's a source issue. Discovery HD, for source example, when I've been looking for it has a visible lip synch problem.
DVD's and everything else doesn't have a lip synch problem using th tv's internal speakers. Several good threads on the issue from other people above.

It mentions reducing costs by using 1/2 the number of mirrors in a diamond configuration with a optical actuator. Is that different from womblation?

In the end its the image that matters, and lasts years cost reduced diamond grid sets had a softer image that the full array HD2+ sets. I'm concerned similar cost reduced '1080p' sets will be similar compared to true 1920x1080 devices.

The wobulated 720p device did have a softer image and almost everyone
who saw it agrees. They evidently fixed this in the 1080p DLPs we are currently
receiving. Check out the work that forum members did last year - especially the
simulations which show the "wobulated" TI 1080p DLP versus a "ideal" 1080p
grid. The wobulated TI DLP shows much less pixelation and a much more film like
picture: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=534863&highlight=ti

Also check out the following simulations using a bit of sharpening:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5591488&&#post5591488

I recommend checking out a set that is next to a Qualia 06 playing the same
material ( since the Qualia 06 appears to be the current reference standard
on this forum ).

I've never experienced any lip synch delay during the 2-1/2 years I've had my HLM507. I did not get it upgraded to the HLN electronics (which adds DNIe).

Both my upgraded HLM and my current HLP show lip sync whether DNIe is turned on or off

I tried out a HLP5063 a few months ago and noticed lip synch with my DVD player (Panny S97) but I didn't spend much time investigating as the TV was defective so I returned it and decided to wait for the HLRs.
I do seem to remember reading something a while back about a replacement digital board for the HLN that supposedly fixed lip synch.

That digital board upgrade did not work in my case.

My own best guess is that the lip synch delay may be caused by DNIe as that is the major differentiator between the original HLM (which did not have DNIe) and the upgraded HLM, the HLM and the HLP.
I'm all set to buy a HLR5078 but like several others, I'm a bit nervous about the lip synch problems so I plan to purchase locally from a store that I could return it to in the event of a serious unfixable problem.

Or consider a receiver with audio delay or a Felston type device. Other than the potential for video delay these appear to be great sets.

I believe the document describes the xHD3 chip. The Samsung DLPs we
are receiving have the xHD4 chip. Not sure of the exact differences other
the xHD4 is suppose to be faster with much better blacks and much higher CR.

The document also states that the TI DLP can display the entire 1920x1080
resolution using *half* the mirrors. I believe the document also states
that the row pairs have two distinct mirrors ( making it a 960x1080 mirror grid ).
That sounds right to me. I didn't read it because of the strange mirror count that was being reported made no sense. :o

So, I've had a strange turn of events. I connected my Oppo DVD player back to my 22" LCD via DVI. It worked this time because the DVI was set to digital (before it was set to analog). After I confirmed that the DVD player was working, I brought it back into the living room and connected it to my 5678. Voila, it started working. It's so strange, as I tried connecting it numerous times before, and each time I couldn't get a signal via HDMI. This time it worked. I'm wondering if the HDMI connection ony my Sammy is flakey. Anyway, the image is stellar. The Oppo is definitely the best DVD player I've owned.

That sounds right to me. I didn't read it because of the strange mirror count that was being reported made no sense. :o
I see all these refs to mirror configs and wonder if anyone read the WSR article that I suggested?
(As to the chipset differences, you might check out August's WIDE SCREEN REVIEW's article:"Digital Light Processing Technology from A-Z")
Carl

It looks like 1:1 mapping is possible on the VGA input (Wide PC mode). I displayed a simple alternating black/white grid and started increasing the picture size using the TV's control. When it reached the maximum size, the b/w grid "snapped" into place and everything was a little sharper. There is overscan at this size, of course -- ~35-45 pixels on the left and right and ~20-30 pixels on the top and bottom.

I then tried displaying the same grid through HDMI/DVI (which is apparently at 1920x1080i). There is no picture size adjusment but it seems the overscan is even greater and there is no 1:1 pixel mapping because there are artifacts in the grid image. Since I'm not sure what the video card/driver is really doing, this HDMI result may be suspect. I won't really have anything else that can drive the HDMI input so I'd be interested in what other people find. However, I've also found that when I play a 1080i feed through the HTPC-VGA and compare it to the same feed playing through the built-in tuner, there is slightly more overscan with the built-in tuner.

Here are three pictures: 1.) VGA with no overscan, 2) VGA at maximum picture size, 3) HDMI. (Sorry about the crappy quality of the pictures but I think you can still see the grid and it's clearly best in picture 2.)

I live about 60 miles from a authorized Samsung service provider. Samsung's customer service said repair could take up to two weeks and requirers special authorization. Anyone have any experience in a similar situation? I am in middle TN. I expect I'll have the same service situation no mater what brand large DLP I buy (even from the only local Tosiba and RCA dealers).

Do I understand correctly that the new 1080p models' picture is not as sharp as those with the HD2+ chip? I saw the HLR5677W in a B&W store, and loved the sharpness of the picture.

Waiting on West's review of his HLR6168W - have you received it yet?

Does anyone know how much longer the PB will be available for the 1080p models?

Hi Kathy,

Waiting on the 6768 and hasn't shipped yet. It was posted in PB that TVA PB goes until the last model in the PB has shipped for 30 days. In other words the clock to expiration of 30 days hasn't started yet - I believe either the 5688 or the 6768 will be the last unless the 7178 is inlcuded in the PB. I've been copying and pasting the reviews posted as best I can within a running text file (without the side chat's) and I can't find anything to support that the 1080P are not as sharp in fact quite the opposite as virtually everyone has found the sharpness and CR to be stunning.

Got to run to get for work. A number of new owners taking delivery through this week and so we should get soome great feedback by this weekend. Have a good day! :D

gazelle: are you sure that ALL the new HDTVs coming out in the next several months will have the lip sync problem? If so, what a bummer.

Well my old 46" Sony is most probably on its last legs! Guess that I may have to find a "good" fix for the problem, one whereby the wife doesn't need to change the delay. I sure don't want to hear from her " this D*** TV doesn't work!"

That would make my day!!!

Orange: the only advantage that I see with the Felston is that you get a maximum of 680 ms of delay while with most receivers the maximum delay is 250 ms. Someone here posted that he needed 120 ms of delay.

Guess that we need a little more data as to how much delay is really required.

Thanks for your input.

folks: one other question to those of you who already have your new HDTV. If you upconvert to 1080I at your DVD, satellite or cable box, what happens to the picture quality and the lip sync?

Thanks!

Do I understand correctly that the new 1080p models' picture is not as sharp as those with the HD2+ chip? I saw the HLR5677W in a B&W store, and loved the sharpness of the picture.

I too am interested in this. Does anyone have any info?

So, I've had a strange turn of events. I connected my Oppo DVD player back to my 22" LCD via DVI. It worked this time because the DVI was set to digital (before it was set to analog). After I confirmed that the DVD player was working, I brought it back into the living room and connected it to my 5678. Voila, it started working. It's so strange, as I tried connecting it numerous times before, and each time I couldn't get a signal via HDMI. This time it worked. I'm wondering if the HDMI connection ony my Sammy is flakey. Anyway, the image is stellar. The Oppo is definitely the best DVD player I've owned.You just made my day...Thanks for the info. ;)

Posted in TVA thread as well.

I received my 5668 yesterday afternoon. I was in the first batch shipped. However! The TV is busted. The box is pretty beat up with the styrofoam packing broken in one spot and TV has a red push all over the right 2/3rds of the screen anytime something red comes on. It fixed itself for an hour this morning and then returned. Based on the delivery at the door, I am not surprised. One guy manhandled the TV off the truck and onto a dolly. I helped him into the house.

Who should I start with? TVA or Samsung? MY HD-950 looked great with NEMO when the red wasn't present. Got my 942 activated, but HD was depressing with red all over the screen.

ToddL

It's been announced over the past week in the IT Field that it's expected that broadband would be able to be increased by 50 times current cable modems - 100Mbits per second - pushed to Televisions.

Combine the true potential of Xbox360 which is planned to become far more that just a gaming system - link the bandwidth to 1080P through the 360 into the TV. Can HTPC and IT folks see the potential of what Bill Gates said he wanted to make the computer the entertainment center - a 360 and a 1080P TV and Broadband streaming into the TV = a way to broadcast 1080P through that bandwidth. Xbox and PS3 are being built as far more than Game Systems. Could this be the missing link to 1080P if the PC has the capability? The Xbox 360 is a high powered PC with networking built in or capable.

Compliments to Pushtar on his 5688 and Feedback - Thank you very MUCH!

highest res that will be output from the 360 is 1080i, no 1080p support. Toshiba's HD-DVD also will top out at 1080i. Only 1080p output devices on horizon are bluray and ps3 (besides computers of course)

Do I understand correctly that the new 1080p models' picture is not as sharp as those with the HD2+ chip? I saw the HLR5677W in a B&W store, and loved the sharpness of the picture.

Kathy and xhoosier66:

I'm certainly no expert, so hopefully someone who really knows can chime in here. I agree that the HD2+ looks quite nice in the xx77 series. I have spent a lot of time comparing the picture between a 5677 and a larger xx63, and the 77 was quite a bit sharper (although the size diff. certainly exaggerated the difference). On the other hand, I felt that I could see just a bit too much edge enhancement, as if the picture was slightly over-processed. Just my subjective opinion, though. Still looked great.

Regarding comparing the sharpness between the xx77 and the new 1080p models, I'm expecting to see something that's at least as sharp as the 720p HD2+ set, probably somewhat sharper due to the higher resolution. However, I would expect that any set that has the 1080p TI DLP chip to be a bit softer than any set of equivalent size that uses a 1080p DMD with a rull 1920x1080 array of picture elements on the DMD.

So in short, I'm expecting to see sharpness ranked from lowest to highest like this:

HD3 (640x720 chip ---> 1280x720 picture) (ex. Sammy xx63)
HD2+ (1280x720 chip---> 1280x720 picture) (ex. Sammy xx77)
xHD4 (960x1080 chip ---> 1920x1080 picture) (ex. Sammy xx68/78/88)
???? (1920x1080 ---> 1920x1080 picture) (ex. upcoming Sony SXRD models?)

However, I personally don't believe sharpness is everything. IMHO, I believe the slightly softer image will help minimize my ability to see digital picture artifacts and provide a more filmlike image. We'll see soon enough ... ;) I receive my 1080p 5078 Sammy this afternoon, so I'll post my thoughts as soon as I can tonight.

If I've made any errors, the experts will surely point it out and I'll gladly correct this post as needed. There's a lot of debate about whether the TI 1080p chip gives you a "true" 1080p picture, but I don't want to get into that discussion here ... it's been beaten into the ground in numerous places elsewhere. Guys, did I get anything wrong?

Hope this helps a bit ...

So, I've had a strange turn of events. I connected my Oppo DVD player back to my 22" LCD via DVI. It worked this time because the DVI was set to digital (before it was set to analog). After I confirmed that the DVD player was working, I brought it back into the living room and connected it to my 5678. Voila, it started working. It's so strange, as I tried connecting it numerous times before, and each time I couldn't get a signal via HDMI. This time it worked. I'm wondering if the HDMI connection ony my Sammy is flakey. Anyway, the image is stellar. The Oppo is definitely the best DVD player I've owned.

Yes, great to hear! :D

Audio Delay has been an issue with Samsung DLP sets since 2003 when the HLNs were introduced. There were few, if any, reports of audio delay for the earlier HLM models. In my case I had an original HLM and never noticed audio delay. However, after I participated in the Samsung upgrade in 2003 (the upgrade essentially made the HLM a HLN) I started noticing audio delay.

Over the years there have been many threads and much discussion of the issue, but the exact cause of the delay has never been identified to every one's satisfaction. Some members reported audio delay on several inputs, others only on 480i inputs and others reported no delay on any input.

After attempting to repair the audio delay on my HLM four times over nearly two years, Samsung replaced it with an HLP. That set also suffers from audio delay.

I believe the best approach to audio delay is to purchase a receiver with the audio delay function or add a device like the Felston DD540.

actually there is good evidence, that on the sammy 720p models, the lip sync issues were present when the incoming feed did not match the tv's native res. Therefore 480i and 480p feeds had lip sync issues because the tv's circuitry had to upscale the image to 720p. Samsung even confirmed this issue. Unfortunately, from what people are reporting here, Samsung hasn't corrected the lip sync issue, and is not happens on all incoming resolutions, since Samsung has to upconvert (or de-interlace) all incoming signals over hdmi, component, etc.

So the question is, can someone who has hooked up a PC to their new 1080p tv, connect the pc through the vga port, set the pc to 1080p resolution. Please report on whether or not there is a lip sync issue. Please try playing dvd's as well as OTA HD content.

also, for those using cable card and/or watching ATSC OTA programs, do you notice lip sync issues using (1) just the tv speakers; and (2) audio from AVR via the optical audio out from tv ?

Are you feeding your DVD player video to the TV via component and the DVD player audio through an A/V receiver using a digital connection?
Sorry I didn't note that info, but your assumptions are correct.

So, I've had a strange turn of events. I connected my Oppo DVD player back to my 22" LCD via DVI. It worked this time because the DVI was set to digital (before it was set to analog). After I confirmed that the DVD player was working, I brought it back into the living room and connected it to my 5678. Voila, it started working. It's so strange, as I tried connecting it numerous times before, and each time I couldn't get a signal via HDMI. This time it worked. I'm wondering if the HDMI connection ony my Sammy is flakey. Anyway, the image is stellar. The Oppo is definitely the best DVD player I've owned.
I firmly believe that technology often times likes to mess with our heads by being just ornery and making go through hoops we didn't expect. I hope that is the case here since my OPPO player will be arriving today

I too am interested in this. Does anyone have any info?
re: sharpness

If the setting on the sharpness control is any indication than I would say the xxx68 is very sharp. I have turned sharpness down to under 50 on my 6168 (as well as brighness & contrast). Out of the box it is all way too intense. But my impression when I first say a 5078 in the store was that it was easily as sharp as an HD2+. this was a concern since I found the 63 series way too soft looking. The 6168 seems to combine a very detailed picture without the SDE from all those square pixels. I can't image a better combination of attributes.

Pushstar-I read your comments with a great deal of interest. My 6168 has been shipped, but not yet received. What equipment are you using, i.e. DVD, etc.? Have you noticed any lip sync problems that a few others have mentioned? Also, have you changed any settings, and if so what are they? I wish others who have received their 68's would publish comments as to their impressions. Thats what all of us are waiting for!!!!!!

How about this: I am suppose to get a 5668 in replacement of a defective 5674, but Samsung shipped me the 5688! Samsung would even let me keep the 5688, but my set is built into the wall so the 5688 doensn't work for me. I guess I'll just have to do another exchange.

Thanks for the tip on the Denon and H/K at Costco. Very reasonable prices if you don't want to gamble with some unknow merchant.

My 6168 was delivered today, and is now hooked up and running. I have HDMI 1 linked from my Motorola 6412 dual-tuner DVR STB, and HDMI 2 coming from my new sammy 950 DVD. Digital coax and optical to the receiver. As stated above, lip sync is noticeable on the Discovery Channel, but oh boy what a picture! We watched "Hitched" on the DVD player tonight and didn't notice any lip sync.

The picture quality of these sets is amazing.

So it seems to me that this lip sync issue is very dependent on all kinds of factors, and it will not keep me from enjoying my new TV at all.

I have noticed zero audio sync problems, but I am using a HTPC to drive the display, so all scaling is done by the PC.
The colors, brightness, and resolution are outstanding using factory defaults, and I don't think I will even bother with purchasing a calibration disc. When the winter gets here and I'm bored I may tinker with the settings a bit, and maybe by then there will be more input on what others have found works best.
I calibrated mine using AVIA. If you put the TV in "movie" mode, it is very nearly perfectly calibrated. The contrast and brightness are almost dead-on. I did have to adjust saturation and hue a bit, but not that much.

John

SO has anonye:

1. Played FPS XBOX 480p to see lag?
2. Played VGA 1920x1080p input FPS game (half-life/doom)??

Alright,

I am glad we are starting to get some more owners speaking out about the truth on the lag issues. I get sick of seeing so many naysayers coming out and bashing the sets based on limited reports from only a select few.

I have seen maybe 2-3 examples of sync issues so far from people. Furthermore, some of the examples I have seen include discussions of Discovery HD and HDNet over DirecTV. These channels have been discussed several times on the forums here and at TiVo community as having audio sync problems to begin with (Discovery HD through DirecTV has been notoriously bad), so I would encourage everyone to ignore discussions regarding these channels through DirecTV when it comes to audio delay.

We have also seen an equal number of people (probably more) say they have noticed absolutely no lag with a regular progressive-scan DVD player as well as some other sources. I think I've also seen others that say that they have experienced no lag with regard to feeding audio and video directly to the TV and listening to the audio through the TV's speakers. To me, that means there is no lag for them, while some do seem to be experiencing lag. There is no question that the verdict is still out and that more people are not experiencing lag than are experiencing it.

I also completely agree with whoever said that feeding audio to one piece of equipment and video to another can frequently result in lag issues. This is a fact that no manufacturer has control over. Do you think it takes the same amount of time to scale and de-interlace from 480i to 1080p as it does to scale from 720p? If the DVD player is doing all the work, sometimes it will lag. If the TV is doing all the work, sometimes it will lag instead. These are the reasons that half-decent equipment that are outputting the audio signals (DVD players, AV receivers) include delay settings. FYI - I believe the Oppo player has a delay feature built in.

It is good that we are seeing some more people people report in rather than hearing some of the same "I can't believe there's lag! I'm not buying this set!" comments over and over again? And I encourage people to add the constructive questions (sjchmura above) rather than endless JVC fanboy drivel (anything from Gazelle).

1) Does anyone who is experiencing delays notice a delay with OTA signals (in other words, is scaling from 720p to 1080p or deinterlacing from 1080i to 1080p causing a delay with the audio being delivered by the sets speakers)?

2) What is the delay difference (if there is a delay at all) between using a DVD player that is outputting 480i vs. 480p vs. 720p vs. 1080i? Different DVD players?

3) Do you notice delays at all (regardless of source, setup)?

4) If you are experiencing delays, what is your setup?

There are literally about a dozen factors that can influence delay in sets, and I for one am not satisfied with people reporting Discovery HD delays over DirecTV who have been using AV receivers as giving me a definitive answer to the delay issue. If we want to test for delays, we're going to have to all get together and sort out the unknowns and settle the issue by using as many different configurations as possible. My set arrives on Monday, so I can get started then. Who's with me here?

Do I understand correctly that the new 1080p models' picture is not as sharp as those with the HD2+ chip? I saw the HLR5677W in a B&W store, and loved the sharpness of the picture.
You'll need to see a 1080p to find out how you react. I have an ISF calibrated "soft" HLP5063 which I like a lot.

I also like the HD2+ sets. :rolleyes:

Starting over, I would take a 1080p set. :)

Does anyone know how much longer the PB will be available for the 1080p models?
In addition to what others have said, I "understand" that you can join the powerbuy and ask for a delay when the powerbuy ends. You can then cancel at a later time or complete the transaction for the powerbuy price. It's always best to use the TVA toll free number to check such "understandings". :o

Who should I start with? TVA or Samsung? MY HD-950 looked great with NEMO when the red wasn't present. Got my 942 activated, but HD was depressing with red all over the screen.
Call TVA. If the set is damaged or not working right they will ship a new one and pick up the damaged one. Be sure to tell them about the damage to the box and how the driver handled the set.

The audio was noticably out of sync when watching the Fifth Element. When (if?) I finally get my HD950 I will try it again to make sure it is repeatable. That is the only time I have noticed audio lag on my set.

Clorox: I look forward to your tests and results!

The audio was noticably out of sync when watching the Fifth Element. When (if?) I finally get my HD950 I will try it again to make sure it is repeatable. That is the only time I have noticed audio lag on my set.

Hi John,

thanks for the post. Was this with a 480p output or a 480i output on your current DVD player?

1) Does anyone who is experiencing delays notice a delay with OTA signals (in other words, is scaling from 720p to 1080p or deinterlacing from 1080i to 1080p causing a delay with the audio being delivered by the sets speakers)?

2) What is the delay difference (if there is a delay at all) between using a DVD player that is outputting 480i vs. 480p vs. 720p vs. 1080i? Different DVD players?

3) Do you notice delays at all (regardless of source, setup)?

4) If you are experiencing delays, what is your setup?



1) I have over the air running directly to the 6168. The 6168 is outputting via optical cable to a Yamaha 5760 = no lag, audio does not echo when using speakers on both the tv and the 5760.

2) 3) 4) Outputting at 1080i on both Directv Samsung Sir-160 and Samsung HD850 I hear an echo between the tv's speakers and the 5760's speakers. Setting delay between 80ms and 120ms on the 5760 (I keep delay at 100ms it sounds just right) gets rid of the echo. The 100ms delay also gets rid of the visual lip synch I notice using the HD850 with HDMI and audio sent to the 5760 with optical cable (I have not tried it with component cables).

In summary same amount of delay needed by the 5760 (100ms) between the HD850 and Sir-160 outputting video to the 6168 at 1080i, and sending audio directly from the HD850 and Sir-160 to the 5760. Anything sent to the 6168 using the 6168's speaker doesn't have a lip synch issue unless it's from the source ie Discover HD on Directv (not the 6168's fault). If you send sound from the 6168 back to the 5760 no delay is needed. However the only DD5.1 you will get is from air or cable using the 6168's built in tuner. The HDMI input only appears to accept 2.0 audio.

1) I have over the air running directly to the 6168. The 6168 is outputting via optical cable to a Yamaha 5760 = no lag, audio does not echo when using speakers on both the tv and the 5760.

2) 3) 4) Outputting at 1080i on both Directv Samsung Sir-160 and Samsung HD850 I hear an echo between the tv's speakers and the 5760's speakers. Setting delay between 80ms and 120ms on the 5760 (I keep delay at 100ms it sounds just right) gets rid of the echo. The 100ms delay also gets rid of the visual lip synch I notice using the HD850 with HDMI and audio sent to the 5760 with optical cable (I have not tried it with component cables).

In summary same amount of delay needed by the 5760 (100ms) between the HD850 and Sir-160 outputting video to the 6168 at 1080i, and sending audio directly from the HD850 and Sir-160 to the 5760. Anything sent to the 6168 using the 6168's speaker doesn't have a lip synch issue unless it's from the source ie Discover HD on Directv (not the 6168's fault). If you send sound from the 6168 back to the 5760 no delay is needed. However the only DD5.1 you will get is from air or cable using the 6168's built in tuner. The HDMI input only appears to accept 2.0 audio.

Good comments! That's interesting. So the set can process the video signal and delay the audio appropriately for its optical out, but since it only passes 2.0 audio from the optical, that sort of makes it useless, it seems... right?

It seems to me that even lower end Yamaha receivers (the HTR-5730 or 5830 which are only $150-$200) can add up to 100ms delays, so that looks promising if this turns out to be an issue on all of the sets.

Clorox, 6168 will output 5.1 but only from its own air and cable tuners (probably cable card also I would guess). The problem is the HDMI only supports 2.0 input.

I wonder what the firewire inputs are capable of passing. I dont know of any firewire devices except for my video camera which is only 2.0. I think some HD vcr's use firewire but I don't own one. If anyone knows of any firewire devices, besides video camera's, let me know please. I tried looking on the internet but could not find anything. Whats the point of D-net on the tv if supporting devices are not being sold.

It looks like 1:1 mapping is possible on the VGA input (Wide PC mode). I displayed a simple alternating black/white grid and started increasing the picture size using the TV's control. When it reached the maximum size, the b/w grid "snapped" into place and everything was a little sharper. There is overscan at this size, of course -- ~35-45 pixels on the left and right and ~20-30 pixels on the top and bottom.

I then tried displaying the same grid through HDMI/DVI (which is apparently at 1920x1080i). There is no picture size adjusment but it seems the overscan is even greater and there is no 1:1 pixel mapping because there are artifacts in the grid image. Since I'm not sure what the video card/driver is really doing, this HDMI result may be suspect. I won't really have anything else that can drive the HDMI input so I'd be interested in what other people find. However, I've also found that when I play a 1080i feed through the HTPC-VGA and compare it to the same feed playing through the built-in tuner, there is slightly more overscan with the built-in tuner.

Here are three pictures: 1.) VGA with no overscan, 2) VGA at maximum picture size, 3) HDMI. (Sorry about the crappy quality of the pictures but I think you can still see the grid and it's clearly best in picture 2.)

Well, Spear, you rock! Thank you so much for this post. Can you please tell us a little bit more:

1) What HTPC did you use? Is it Media Center 2005 by any chance?
2) What video card and what driver do you have? If it's nVidia, did you use the option to treat monitor as HDTV at 1080?
3) What happens when you try the 4:3 setting on Samsung's PC input?

You are getting about 5% overscan horizontally and vertically with Wide PC once the picture "locks-in". If this is the lowest possible overscan, I am still going to be happy with it. I wonder if the inappropriately (?) labeled 4:3 setting on the PC input can produce slightly lower overscan.

Again, thanks a bunch for taking the time to evaluate this key feature. Great news, indeed.

1) I have over the air running directly to the 6168. The 6168 is outputting via optical cable to a Yamaha 5760 = no lag, audio does not echo when using speakers on both the tv and the 5760.

2) 3) 4) Outputting at 1080i on both Directv Samsung Sir-160 and Samsung HD850 I hear an echo between the tv's speakers and the 5760's speakers. Setting delay between 80ms and 120ms on the 5760 (I keep delay at 100ms it sounds just right) gets rid of the echo. The 100ms delay also gets rid of the visual lip synch I notice using the HD850 with HDMI and audio sent to the 5760 with optical cable (I have not tried it with component cables).

In summary same amount of delay needed by the 5760 (100ms) between the HD850 and Sir-160 outputting video to the 6168 at 1080i, and sending audio directly from the HD850 and Sir-160 to the 5760. Anything sent to the 6168 using the 6168's speaker doesn't have a lip synch issue unless it's from the source ie Discover HD on Directv (not the 6168's fault). If you send sound from the 6168 back to the 5760 no delay is needed. However the only DD5.1 you will get is from air or cable using the 6168's built in tuner. The HDMI input only appears to accept 2.0 audio.

From item #1 above it sounds like when both the video and audio signal come into the 6168 in synch, whatecer video processing the 6168 does it ends up outputting the video and audio at the same time. You would expect this.

From item #2 above it looks like when a STB (Sir-160) is used to sned video to the 6168 and audio to the AVR, that the sound comes out of the AVR first. Because delaying it fixes the echo. In this case it also looks like the 6168 is correctly processing the audio and video input and synching them correctly for the video processing delay. The problem is that when the separate audio signal goes from the STB to the AVR, it gets output immediately, and time is not allowed for the video processing that the 6168 is doing on the signal.

I don't think that you can fault the 6168 for that, especially since it handles incoming video and audio correctly internally. It's only when the audio takes a path not through the 6168 that there is a problem.

It's almost like now that TV's are doing "so much" processing of the incoming video, that a system needs to be devised whereby the external AVR can somehow be "told" by the TV how long to delay the sound for. Back when no video processing was done by TV's this was a complete non-issue. In my case, and probably most others, my STB feeds the video to my TV and the audio to the AVR which drives the speakers. My TV is never used for outputting audio.

I don't envy you Clorox, trying to debug the situation by getting information from multiple sources, some of which may not have the technical knowledge to make sure what they are reporting in necessarily correct or not, no offense intended. Probably the best way to accurately test this is by setting the TV up in a lab, and using multiple sources, into the various TV inputs, and generate a comprehensive report. Even beyond the level of testing done by your typical A/V magazines.

I would think that Samsung would have done this level of testing and has the results. If nothing else, I would think they might want to provide a warning in the users manual that routing audio through an external path might require an AVR capable of putting delays in. They certainly know how long the video processing takes, but I don't know if that is in the manual or not. And it certainly could vary by source depending on the incoming data format.

I'm not an owner but have been following the thread to see how the computer input is working. I'm thinking of getting the Sony 50A10 for use primarily as a computer monitor as I have no HD feed.

Having spent a lot of time debugging hardware issues this entire discussion seems more like being at work than enjoying a new TV :)

Robert

It looks like 1:1 mapping is possible on the VGA input (Wide PC mode). ...

Great!

How does text look with the desktop at 1920x1080 60Hz,
wondering how smoothpicture compares to say an LCD monitor, is the text soft ?

Also, how does 1280x720p look over VGA via the PC,
and other resolutions, does the set scale well?

What about focus in the center vs the edges?

actually there is good evidence, that on the sammy 720p models, the lip sync issues were present when the incoming feed did not match the tv's native res. Therefore 480i and 480p feeds had lip sync issues because the tv's circuitry had to upscale the image to 720p. Samsung even confirmed this issue.

I think video delay is more complex. For example in my setup I can consistently induce video delay by inputting 480i over component from my SA 8300 HD into my HLP. I get no noticeable delay on 480p, 720p or 1080i inputs. I also get delay from by SD Tivo via s-video. However, I do not get any noticeable video delay from the 480i via component input from my old Pioneer DV-525, which significantly predates progressive scan DVD players.

I believe that 100ms of delay will be adequate for the vast majority of video delay issues. I was told by Samsung tech support that the original HLNs were speced to have no more than 60 ms of delay and that the "fix" would lower that spec to 40 ms. At the time some AVS members actually measured the delay up to 90ms, but there were some reports of occasional delays much greater than that.

Of course, all the above assumes that there is no mismatch between the video and audio from the source.

This might sound like a basic question but can you look at the PIP using both HDMI inputs? How many inputs can you look at concurrently with PIP?

I have considered getting a cable card and a cable box, will the cable card allow HD viewing?

Here is an article from Audioholics from over a year ago. Pretty much gets exactly to the issue we are discussing here...What I take from it? Buy a Yamaha, Denon, HK etc. receiver if you need a new receiver.

Audio Lip Sync - The Next Big Feature?
Receivers that Help Your Audio and Video to Sync on Newer Digital Displays
By: Clint DeBoer
4/23/2004
In the "good ole days" of pre-HD CRT displays, audio and video processing took about the same amount of time resulting in almost no significant delay problems. Back then, no one had to worry about video taking longer to process than the audio that was being heard. Fast forward to HDTV and the era of video scalers, deinterlacing, and 2:3 pull-down and you are entering a time when video frequently takes longer than the previously 'acceptable' <16.6 milliseconds (1/2 video frame, or one field in interlaced systems).

What Does it All Mean?
With the new digital televisions and improved video processing it is becoming more frequent to have fixed delays in video that make the audio appear to be ahead of the picture by as much as 4 frames (133.3ms). This is not to be confused with inherent delay problems coming from the cable or satellite company's transmissions (which can only compound the problem). In addition to this, some digital technologies, like direct view LCD televisions already have inherent delays of as much as 15-20 milliseconds, prior to any video processing. Some plasma screens even need to put data into internall memory before displaying picture, which can result in 20-60 milliseconds of delay.

Compounding this problem even further is the potential for varying delay times associated with what scaling or deinterlacing functions of video processing are engaged at any particular time (switching from 480p to 1080i inputs for example).
Mid-priced and higher-end displays already come with audio delay circuitry built in to match the audio and video signals and prevent lip sync. Unfortunately, many lower-end models do not, and even the higher end units do not account for the problems that occur when you route audio through a home theater processor or receiver.

Identifying the Problem
We have not yet thoroughly tested out the various setup DVDs to see if they address lip-sync issues as of yet, but you should be able to notice a consistent audio delay where the audio appears to be behind the video picture. At the very least you should look at your screen and feel that something is "off". We'll be providing updates in the future with a means for accurately testing and addressing this issue once the proper tools for doing so (other than your eyes and ears) are confirmed.

How to Solve the Problem
Solving the problem will best be accomplished on the shoulders of the processor/receiver manufacturers. Since the video processing cannot be made faster (at least not until the technologies improve over time) the audio companies will need to provide a means of delaying audio to compensate. For now, a global lip-sync delay should be enough as most people onl have one monitor in their rooms (I won't be presumptuous at this point and take issue that some of us have projectors as well as HDTV televisions.) Look for at least 100ms delay capability. Here are some current manufacturers who provide lip sync delay for their processors and receivers:

Yamaha
Denon
Harman Kardon
Rotel
Arcam

Alternatively, DVD manufacturers can help the problem by providing players that have A/V sync options as well, though this is a less desired solution as it does not help with broadcasts originating from other sources. There are several manufacturers offering lip-sync delay on their DVD players.

Summary
This is a real problem, and one that is starting to rear its ugly head more and more as digital displays are gobbled up by the consumer (many of them towards the low-end pricepoints). Our suggestion to manufacturers is that they take this seriously and give the user easy access to lip sync delay right from a hard button on the remote control. This is something that needs to be easily accessed, and not hidden in a 7-layer menu system. With what we've seen from Yamaha (RX-V1400/2400 & Z9) and Denon (AVR-3805) and Harman Kardon (AVR 430/630) it looks like the manufacturers are on the ball and aware of this important issue.

1) What HTPC did you use? Is it Media Center 2005 by any chance?
It is a Linux (Fedora Core 4) system running MythTV.
2) What video card and what driver do you have? If it's nVidia, did you use the option to treat monitor as HDTV at 1080?
It's a Gigabyte/nVidia 6600 card and I'm using nVidia's 0.7174 drivers. These drivers have an option to set the "TV standard" to HD1080i or HD1080p but I think it's for the component output. Since I'm using VGA, I did not try that option.
3) What happens when you try the 4:3 setting on Samsung's PC input?
Then the picture shrinks horizontally. Bad for 1920x1080 but good for 800x600 or other 4:3 resolutions.
You are getting about 5% overscan horizontally and vertically with Wide PC once the picture "locks-in". If this is the lowest possible overscan, I am still going to be happy with it. I wonder if the inappropriately (?) labeled 4:3 setting on the PC input can produce slightly lower overscan.
I'm not sure what you mean. With the default settings of Wide PC mode, I got no overscan (actually some underscan) but no 1:1 mapping. I don't think there's a way to get both without adjusting the optics. I prefer to have the 1:1 mapping and can live with the overscan since most video content expects it and for computer use, I can compensate by having a slightly smaller desktop size.
Again, thanks a bunch for taking the time to evaluate this key feature. Great news, indeed.
I was pleasantly surprised with the quality of the VGA input. I had been concerned because of the lack of HDMI 1080p and because I wasn't very happy with VGA compared to DVI-D on my LCD flat-panel monitor. I haven't even tried using a high quality VGA cable yet. One issue is that many of the picture controls are disabled for VGA input. I have not done any calibration to see if this is going to be a problem.

I am a little bit puzzled about the apparent scaling going on with the built-in tuner and the HDMI input, though. I hope people can do some tests on these.

Clorox, Thanks that is the article I was looking for.

I have slight video lag on everything. It is marginally objectionable for me. My guess is that most people wouldn’t find it objectionable. I confirmed it by using the echo test. There is little or no lag when using the TV speakers. Having both the TV speakers and the surround speakers on at the same time, creates a distinct echo, which verifies there is a time difference.

Output/Connection Video lag
TV 6168
DVR SFA 8300 480p component yes
1080i component yes
1080i HDMI yes
DVD player Sony DVP-S560D 480i component yes

I am using an optical cable to drive the surround system. I used standard red & white audio cables for the TV except for HDMI, where it’s not necessary.

This subject is really an old one and is common among most if not all manufactures. The more video processing being done the worse it will be.

This is from Samsung’s FAQ: “If the sound and video are unsynchronized, it's highly likely you have either a DLP TV or a TV connected to a Home Theater System (HTS). Solutions for this problem for both are presented below.
Unsynchronized Sound And Video With DLP TVs
If the sound on your DLP TV is out of sync with your picture and the TV is not connected to a home theater system, a Samsung technician can adjust the sound synch function on the TV so that the sound and picture are in synch.
To arrange a service call to adjust the sound synch function, call Samsung Customer Care at 1-800-SAMSUNG (1-800-726-7864).
Unsynchronized Sound And Video With Home Theater Systems
If the sound on your TV - and this can be any kind of TV - is out of synch with your picture and you are using a home theater system (HTS), things become more difficult. In many setups, the television signal comes into a set top box. The set top box audio output is connected directly to the HTS and the set top box video output is connected directly to the TV. Consequently, the audio portion of the signal is sent directly to the HTS without passing through the TV, and the video portion of the signal is sent directly to the TV without passing through the HTS. The two signals are separated, processed at different rates, and cannot be synched by adjusting the sound synch function in the TV.
If your system is set up as described above, you still may be able to resolve the sound synch problem. Check your HTS user's manual to see if your HTS has a Sound Delay function. If it does, you may be able to adjust the Sound Delay so that the sound and picture are in synch.
If your HTS does not have a Sound Delay function, you may be able to purchase an audio delay device, such as the Felston DD540, that you can put into your system between the set top box and the HTS. You should be able to adjust the audio delay device so that the sound and picture are in synch.”

can an ISF tech correct these audio delays in the tv system settings ? I wonder is there is a hidden setting to turn off DNiE

Just got my 6168 today. I just noticed that the manual that shipped with the unit was for the xx67 series. Everyone else get the right manual?

can an ISF tech correct these audio delays in the tv system settings ?

That's not their job. :)

There is an audio delay setting in the SM but it only effects sound from the TV.

I wonder is there is a hidden setting to turn off DNiE
It may be possible for an ISF calibrator to minimize DNIe using a combination of settings. No one has found an on/off switch for DNIe in the SM.

Just got my 6168 today. I just noticed that the manual that shipped with the unit was for the xx67 series. Everyone else get the right manual?

My 6168 came today as well, and My owner's manual states HLR6168W.

I've got it set up with my TW CAble SA 8300HD DVR using component and the picture quality is amazing...can't wait to get an HDMI cable and see what the improvement looks like, I can't imagine it getting better!

SD stuff looks pretty good too.

My kids are currently playing xbox hooked up to the tv via the xbox hd component pack and using wireless controllers - no lag at all between movements on the controllers vs what you see on the screen - happens just like it should.

No problems with lip synch, but I'm not splitting the audio out to a reciever (yet).

Everyone still waiting for their sammy to show up should be VERY excited, this is one amazing looking set!

Kyle

OK, maybe I posted a little too soon about the lag with the xbox controllers on the 6168.

My kids were playing Lego Star Wars, not a true FPS, but enough action that we thought we'd notice it if there was any lag. We didn't notice any. Later my teenage son put in Halo 2 and we played multiplayer thru 480p...definite lag, but nothing that we both couldn't adjust to after a few rounds. we even tried using a wired controller and found that the lag wasn't as pronounced as with a wireless, but still there.

After some experimentation we discovered that as long as you don't whip the joystick from one side to another, the lag isn't so bad....move your character with the joystick a little more carefully and the lag seems to almost disappear...hard to really explain until you try it yourself.

This does not in any way make me sorry for getting this TV. My kids and I are frequent gamers and will get much enjoyment from it, even though we might have to adjust the way we play slightly. This does not take away at all from the fact that THE PICTURE and CLARITY were AMAZING!!!

Hope this helps some of you xboxer's looking for answers.

Kyle

Just got my 6168 today. I just noticed that the manual that shipped with the unit was for the xx67 series. Everyone else get the right manual?

It appears that the "Quick Start Manual" is for the 67 series while the thicker "real" manual is for the 68. At least that I what I received. A tiny bit annoying but what the heck at least we got the set. :D

How does text look with the desktop at 1920x1080 60Hz,
wondering how smoothpicture compares to say an LCD monitor, is the text soft ?
I don't think it's as sharp as an LCD flat panel but it's still pretty good even with small fonts from a distance. Considering I'm normally farther from the TV than from a monitor (even accounting for screen size), I'd probably want to increase the font sizes if I had to do any extended computer work.
Also, how does 1280x720p look over VGA via the PC,
and other resolutions, does the set scale well?
I have not tried this. Currently, the video card is doing the scaling for 720p content. I'll probably try and check it out this week.
What about focus in the center vs the edges?
I didn't notice anything obvious but I would probably have to pay more attention. Are there any good 1920x1080 test patterns for checking focus and distortion?

It seems to me that even lower end Yamaha receivers (the HTR-5730 or 5830 which are only $150-$200) can add up to 100ms delays, so that looks promising if this turns out to be an issue on all of the sets.

Actually, it looks like the 5830 doesn't have this feature, but the 5840 does.

I was originally thinking I would just wait and see if there were delay problems with the 6168, and then buy an add-on delay box then. But there are some nice features on these Yamahas that my existing receiver (a Kenwood VR-607 that came with an HTIB) doesn't have (like mapping different audio and video inputs separately), so I may just spring for one anyway...

I got my HLR6178W today and set it up to a few inputs so far.

The set looks great! It is definitely more attractive to my eye than the HLM/HLN/HLP sets. I like the glossy black bezel. I don't like the small "pedestal" underneath and likely will remove this soon. I'd imagine it is attached with screws.

I had an HLN617w before and had lots of lag problems. So far, with minimal testing, I don't notice lag on HD Comcast from a Motorola 6412 or cable through a Replay TV. I've yet to test OTA HD, cable not through a box, games or PC inputs yet.

Don't forget, that Samsung has had delay settings in the service menu dating back to the lipsynch fix for the HLN series (a firmware upgrade and digital board swap). The very nice local Samsung tech told me he updated many sets and most people were satisfied with the result. There were very few recalls for more fixes. Sure he is a Samsung employee, but my gut says he was being honest.

Thus, those with delay problems perhaps should look in the service menu first. I recall three different delay settings on my set after the lipsynch fix.

Actually, it looks like the 5830 doesn't have this feature, but the 5840 does.

I was originally thinking I would just wait and see if there were delay problems with the 6168, and then buy an add-on delay box then. But there are some nice features on these Yamahas that my existing receiver (a Kenwood VR-607 that came with an HTIB) doesn't have (like mapping different audio and video inputs separately), so I may just spring for one anyway...

I think your plan is a wise one. I.e., if one is thinking about/needing a new AVR, then it is certainly wise to get one that allows for a variable delay. If one already has a relatively new one that one is satisfied with, then adding the Felston box is good alternative. The latter is ~ $230, so everybody can make the calculation about which way they perfer to go. Either way, to me at least, I think we can bury the 'lip sync' problem and call it effectively eliminated.

Problem with HLR 6178W on setup!

Upon initial setup, the set turned on normally to the TV Guide setup screen. Within a minute the set turned itself off spontaneously with the lamp indicator blinking.

After this, I could not turn the set on again. The lamp and temp/standby lights were blinking indicating a problem with the lamp door. I was also worried about the lamp as it had just been shipped from wherever. (Interesting note- the set was manufactured in Mexico!) I unplugged the set and took the lamp assembly out and inspected it. The lamp door was solidly closed and the lamp looked pristine. Plugging things back in myself with great care didn't change anything. Now I was scared.

One more time into the lamp area didn't initially reveal anything. I next inspected the switch which must be pushed up by the lamp door. I took it out and found that the small wire end header plugged into the adjacent board was not snapped in completely. A satisfying click later and the set is up and running!

So, check those switches if you run into the same situation.

I think we can bury the 'lip sync' problem and call it effectively eliminated.

Seeing as the user would be required to spend an additional $230 on top of already spending $3000+ for a "state of the art TV", I don't think we can say that.

I got my HLR6178W today and set it up to a few inputs so far.

I don't like the small "pedestal" underneath and likely will remove this soon. I'd imagine it is attached with screws.

Welcome to the club! I think the pedestal comes off with two screws in the back and a couple of push in clips on the back also. Haven't taken mine off yet but plan to. Enjoy the set. :D

Actually, it looks like the 5830 doesn't have this feature, but the 5840 does.

I guess you're right. I was mistaking a different delay feature ("initial delay" as it is called in the manual) for the audio delay present in the 5840.

But there are some nice features on these Yamahas that my existing receiver (a Kenwood VR-607 that came with an HTIB) doesn't have (like mapping different audio and video inputs separately), so I may just spring for one anyway...

Haha, you sound like me. Any excuse to get some new gear. It is too bad the Samsung AV receivers don't have this yet. Kind of stupid, don't you think?

Seeing as the user would be required to spend an additional $230 on top of already spending $3000+ for a "state of the art TV", I don't think we can say that.

Another $200 to a $300-400 AVR, to make it a $600 AVR--and one with a better (more flexible) delay system doesn't really seem so bad; nor does this increment to a $4-5K tv. Since it completely eliminates this issue, I consider it not so bad, but of course YMMV.

Seeing as the user would be required to spend an additional $230 on top of already spending $3000+ for a "state of the art TV", I don't think we can say that.
Huh? I thought the internal speakers worked fine (assuming the source is synced properly).

Another $200 to a $300-400 AVR, to make it a $600 AVR--and one with a better (more flexible) delay system doesn't really seem so bad; nor does this increment to a $4-5K tv. Since it completely eliminates this issue, I consider it not so bad, but of course YMMV.

For me, since I personally saved well over $250 from what I would have paid elsewhere (just from tax savings even), I am happy to shell out a little more if it means getting a fantastic viewing experience. I'm just waiting to see if a) I notice any lag and b) if there is noticeable lag, whether it actually bothers me.

OK, maybe I posted a little too soon about the lag with the xbox controllers on the 6168.

My kids were playing Lego Star Wars, not a true FPS, but enough action that we thought we'd notice it if there was any lag. We didn't notice any. Later my teenage son put in Halo 2 and we played multiplayer thru 480p...definite lag, but nothing that we both couldn't adjust to after a few rounds. we even tried using a wired controller and found that the lag wasn't as pronounced as with a wireless, but still there.

After some experimentation we discovered that as long as you don't whip the joystick from one side to another, the lag isn't so bad....move your character with the joystick a little more carefully and the lag seems to almost disappear...hard to really explain until you try it yourself.

This does not in any way make me sorry for getting this TV. My kids and I are frequent gamers and will get much enjoyment from it, even though we might have to adjust the way we play slightly. This does not take away at all from the fact that THE PICTURE and CLARITY were AMAZING!!!

Hope this helps some of you xboxer's looking for answers.

Kyle

Kyle, thanks for the info. Did you try turning off DNR and/or labeling the Xbox input as GAME to see if that helped with the lag?

For me, since I personally saved well over $250 from what I would have paid elsewhere (just from tax savings even), I am happy to shell out a little more if it means getting a fantastic viewing experience. I'm just waiting to see if a) I notice any lag and b) if there is noticeable lag, whether it actually bothers me.

I'm in the same boat!

It is a Linux (Fedora Core 4) system running MythTV.

I'm not sure what you mean. With the default settings of Wide PC mode, I got no overscan (actually some underscan) but no 1:1 mapping. I don't think there's a way to get both without adjusting the optics. I prefer to have the 1:1 mapping and can live with the overscan since most video content expects it and for computer use, I can compensate by having a slightly smaller desktop size.



Actually was a way to have both 1:1 mapping and no overscan at least for older Samsung models.(Such as HLN, HLP series.)
The trick was to send 1248x702 resolution to the TV maintaining 1:1 pixel mapping.

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1248x702=1248,64,128,176,702,1,3,21,70500,2304

Generic timing details for 1248x702:
HFP=64 HSW=128 HBP=176 kHz=44 VFP=1 VSW=3 VBP=21 Hz=60

Linux modeline parameters:
"1248x702" 70.500 1248 1312 1440 1616 702 703 706 727 +hsync +vsync

Does anyone with 1080P unit tried something like above?
I need to see if 1:1 mapping without overscan is possible before I go with 1080P models.

I have a Sammy hlp 6163, and occasionally I see some audio-video mismatch (lip sync), but only rarely.


How can a audio delay device external to the TV help if the delay is not consistent. If you fix the delay and then the TV delay changes, wouldn't the delay continue at the setting manually set on the external device. If the TV stop delaying the external device would now be the cause of the delay. You can only get a good sync between tv and remote sound sourse by feeding the receiver with audio from the TV. This apparently cannot be done.

Kyle, thanks for the info. Did you try turning off DNR and/or labeling the Xbox input as GAME to see if that helped with the lag?

Slimjim, have not tried that but will do so at the next opportunity and will post results later today.

Kyle

On the new Sammy can you watch two or more 1080i sources at once? Anyone really messed around with the picture in picture? Someone describe how it works on their set?

On my current TV, old Toshiba you can not watch any HD PIP. Therefore I never use it.

Just got my 6168 today. I just noticed that the manual that shipped with the unit was for the xx67 series. Everyone else get the right manual?

Mine also came with the xx67 manual instead of the xx68 manual. Good thing the right manual is available as a pdf.

John

It is a Linux (Fedora Core 4) system running MythTV.
Same here.
I was pleasantly surprised with the quality of the VGA input. I had been concerned because of the lack of HDMI 1080p and because I wasn't very happy with VGA compared to DVI-D on my LCD flat-panel monitor. I haven't even tried using a high quality VGA cable yet. One issue is that many of the picture controls are disabled for VGA input. I have not done any calibration to see if this is going to be a problem.
Yes, the video quality is excellent!

I calibrated what I could using the controls built into the TV (brightness, contrast), and then use the Xv saturation and hue controls in Myth to dial in the rest. I ripped my Avia disk, and then fudged up an mpeg file from the color bar chapter, which I then imported into Myth.

John

Anyone figure out any discrete codes. I've tried a couple of the HLN and HLP Series without much luck. The discrete power works and the HDMI input from the HLP but that was about it. Anyone else have any luck?

Thanks,
-Shane

ToddL

It's been announced over the past week in the IT Field that it's expected that broadband would be able to be increased by 50 times current cable modems - 100Mbits per second - pushed to Televisions.




Err, don't count on that anytime soon. I assume your talking about cable broadband data? Don't count on getting 100Mbit feed to your house anytime soon. The cost per port on that setup would be insane. As it is now cable companies advertise 5Mbit per second or more, but that is fractional at best. Or in other words shared.

Received my 5668W today - set is working perfectly! So far I am really happy with it, and was REALLY impressed by the VGA quality... I was also surprised how good SD looks on this set.. I have seen a few rainbows - mostly on high contrast scenes... Played back a few 1080P windows media files and they look amazing as expected.. I played a few xbox games and did not experience any lag either... Here is a pic that I snapped with the set hooked up to my PC playing back 3dmark 2005...

http://www.voidyourwarranty.net/PICT0258.JPG

Pretty amazing stuff in person... DVD's also look good with zoom player and FFDShow... Expect more pictures soon.

It looks like 1:1 mapping is possible on the VGA input (Wide PC mode). I displayed a simple alternating black/white grid and started increasing the picture size using the TV's control. When it reached the maximum size, the b/w grid "snapped" into place and everything was a little sharper. There is overscan at this size, of course -- ~35-45 pixels on the left and right and ~20-30 pixels on the top and bottom.

I then tried displaying the same grid through HDMI/DVI (which is apparently at 1920x1080i). There is no picture size adjusment but it seems the overscan is even greater and there is no 1:1 pixel mapping because there are artifacts in the grid image. Since I'm not sure what the video card/driver is really doing, this HDMI result may be suspect. I won't really have anything else that can drive the HDMI input so I'd be interested in what other people find. However, I've also found that when I play a 1080i feed through the HTPC-VGA and compare it to the same feed playing through the built-in tuner, there is slightly more overscan with the built-in tuner.

Here are three pictures: 1.) VGA with no overscan, 2) VGA at maximum picture size, 3) HDMI. (Sorry about the crappy quality of the pictures but I think you can still see the grid and it's clearly best in picture 2.)

Thanks for the post, the #2 with overscan looks nice and seems to be a 1:1 map.

Posted in TVA thread as well.

I received my 5668 yesterday afternoon. I was in the first batch shipped. However! The TV is busted. The box is pretty beat up with the styrofoam packing broken in one spot and TV has a red push all over the right 2/3rds of the screen anytime something red comes on. It fixed itself for an hour this morning and then returned. Based on the delivery at the door, I am not surprised. One guy manhandled the TV off the truck and onto a dolly. I helped him into the house.

Who should I start with? TVA or Samsung? MY HD-950 looked great with NEMO when the red wasn't present. Got my 942 activated, but HD was depressing with red all over the screen.

If the box was as beat up as you said you should have rejected the shipment. Told the delivery guy too bad so sad and that you were not going to accept it.

On the new Sammy can you watch two or more 1080i sources at once? Anyone really messed around with the picture in picture?
You would need two HD tuners to do that. I don't think anyone is putting two HD tuners in their HDTV sets yet.

Nope. You can't watch two HD sources using PIP, only an HD source and an SD source.


So, does the TV down convert the 2nd HD source to SD so you can watch two channels at once that both happen to be HD?

Received my 5668W today - set is working perfectly! So far I am really happy with it, and was REALLY impressed by the VGA quality... I was also surprised how good SD looks on this set.. I have seen a few rainbows - mostly on high contrast scenes... Played back a few 1080P windows media files and they look amazing as expected.. I played a few xbox games and did not experience any lag either... Here is a pic that I snapped with the set hooked up to my PC playing back 3dmark 2005...

Pretty amazing stuff in person... DVD's also look good with zoom player and FFDShow... Expect more pictures soon.

Thank you so much for posting this information. Also, very nice picture. Please share with us a little bit more information about your set-up:

1) What video card and driver are you using?

2) Did you set up your TV the same way Spear did, i.e., using Wide PC setting and then expanding the picture on the TV until you got 1:1 mapping? It seems clear now that Samsung's explanation for 4:3 setting in the manual is misleading. That mode is good only for displaying a 4:3 computer image, and it's unlikely that many people will want to do this.

3) Can you estimate how much overscan you are getting in your set-up?

Err, don't count on that anytime soon. I assume your talking about cable broadband data? Don't count on getting 100Mbit feed to your house anytime soon. The cost per port on that setup would be insane. As it is now cable companies advertise 5Mbit per second or more, but that is fractional at best. Or in other words shared.

Some companies are laying fiber directly to the home. I have heard of at least
one community ( If I remember correctly somewhere in Texas ) where a
60 Mbit pipe runs about $59.95 a month...

I have a friend getting about 15Mbit in Huntington Beach from fiber running
directly to his house.

Its closer than many think...

Its closer than many think...
The cost has been reduced by new technology but I don't remember the details. :o

...

I'm just waiting to see if a) I notice any lag and b) if there is noticeable lag, whether it actually bothers me.

If the lag is noticeable, I don't know how it could not bother you.

How can a audio delay device external to the TV help if the delay is not consistent. If you fix the delay and then the TV delay changes, wouldn't the delay continue at the setting manually set on the external device. If the TV stop delaying the external device would now be the cause of the delay. You can only get a good sync between tv and remote sound sourse by feeding the receiver with audio from the TV. This apparently cannot be done.

Send the audio directly to the AVR, by-passing the tv. If the audio and video are not in sync, adjust the audio delay via the AVR.

The system is a 3200+ socket 754 athlon 64, 6800GT, 1GB of ram.. I used the Wide PC mode and just used the resize feature untill overscan was at a minimum. What is the best way to determine if I have 1:1 pixel mapping? Right now there is hardly any overscan... Oh yeah I am using the latest 77.72 drivers...

You would need two HD tuners to do that. I don't think anyone is putting two HD tuners in their HDTV sets yet.

I don't think so either but I have a Dish network 942 HD Receiver which has
four satellite tuners and one OTA tuner - I get Hi-Def PIP and Hi-Def Split Screen...

If the lag is noticeable, I don't know how it could not bother you.

It's the same way that if I look really closely for something, I might be able to see it, but under normal circumstances, I wouldn't. I see video delays with source material all the time on my SD DirecTiVo. Occasionally it's enough that it bothers me. I'm due for a new receiver anyway, so I'll probably go that route.

Actually was a way to have both 1:1 mapping and no overscan at least for older Samsung models.(Such as HLN, HLP series.)
The trick was to send 1248x702 resolution to the TV maintaining 1:1 pixel mapping.
[...]
Does anyone with 1080P unit tried something like above?
I need to see if 1:1 mapping without overscan is possible before I go with 1080P models.

Sure, that's what I meant by "compensating with a smaller desktop". I think that for the purposes of HTPC HD viewing, though, this really defeats the purpose of the 1:1 pixel mapping. By reducing the deskop size, you'd be forcing the PC to rescale 1920x1080 streams into a slightly smaller window and there will be a loss of resolution. I think I'd prefer to live with the overscan instead. (I agree that for normal computer use, the smaller desktop method is just fine.)

And yes, I have tried this on the 6168 and I do have a use for it. I still have a couple of dumb NTSC capture cards which the PVR software uses for encoding shows into MPEG-4. The quality is not so good when these videos are blown up to full size so I've set it up to switch to a custom 1024x768 resolution when playing these videos. The videocard timing for this custom resolution is the same as the 1920x1080 resolution (to maintain the 1:1 pixel mapping and prevent the TV from doing any additional rescaling) but with a smaller viewable area to limit the screen size.

For the last 3 years, since I've been using a video scaler, I have had video lag. It isn't a problem, I just correct it with my reciver by delaying the audio. If my receiver didn't have that capability, I would get one that does or get a devcice that corrects it. Video lag is nothing new.

Some companies are laying fiber directly to the home. I have heard of at least
one community ( If I remember correctly somewhere in Texas ) where a
60 Mbit pipe runs about $59.95 a month...

I have a friend getting about 15Mbit in Huntington Beach from fiber running
directly to his house.

Its closer than many think...

that maybe true...but here let me show you what you really get.

Fiber can go in Gig silly range if you want to throw the cash at it. What you get is a fractional 60Mbit pipe. Why? Because everyone in the neighborhood has 60Mbit going back to the switch via the same 60Mbit layed out pipe to your house. Hell let's say the pipe going to your neighborhood is 1Gig, take that pipe and divide it by 300 people in the area/neighborhood who have said "60Mbit" and you get what your really getting. What the cable company is counting on is that not everyone will be using it at the sametime. But, all it takes is some clown in your area to be running a FTP server to kill the bandwidth. This is the reason why cable companies limit up bandwidth, but not down to prevent this. This is the reason why T-x lines cost a hella more than just broadband cable. Cable companis also clearly state in the small print that the speed stated is "burst" speed and not a sustained speed, which is what you would need for 1080p content.

Then we can talk about how everyone's 60Mbit pipe goes back to the switch and that switch has 6+ cards in it with 48ports to a card with only a 100Mbit or 1Gig uplink. A 60Mbit pipe is really a 100Mbit connection the cable company is throttling back at the modem, people have gotten in trouble for hacking their modems and opening up their pipe to 10Mbit when it was throttled to 5Mbits.

It's the same way that if I look really closely for something, I might be able to see it, but under normal circumstances, I wouldn't. I see video delays with source material all the time on my SD DirecTiVo. Occasionally it's enough that it bothers me. I'm due for a new receiver anyway, so I'll probably go that route.

I see what you are saying.

I thought you meant if it were just "noticeable" on casual viewing.

Lip sync issues drive me crazy!

well i guess there is video game lag on the new sets, there goes my tv im bout to cancel my preorder, im not going to pay 3500 dollars on a tv that is impossible to play video games on

I have a symmetrical 32Mbit connection to my home. Though I don't pay full retail cost for it, it would be doable costwise for a home office user.

10Mbit symmetrical fiber is relatively common scattered about the country. 15Mbit fiber connections are about (a friend gets his for $49/mo) and a 30Mbit connection is offered for $99 in the same place.

Nearly all bandwidth is fractional at some level and frankly, due to use patterns, should be so.

So, now we have to figure out how to use all of this bandwidth!


Err, don't count on that anytime soon. I assume your talking about cable broadband data? Don't count on getting 100Mbit feed to your house anytime soon. The cost per port on that setup would be insane. As it is now cable companies advertise 5Mbit per second or more, but that is fractional at best. Or in other words shared.

I have a symmetrical 32Mbit connection to my home. Though I don't pay full retail cost for it, it would be doable costwise for a home office user.

10Mbit symmetrical fiber is relatively common scattered about the country. 15Mbit fiber connections are about (a friend gets his for $49/mo) and a 30Mbit connection is offered for $99 in the same place.

Nearly all bandwidth is fractional at some level and frankly, due to use patterns, should be so.

So, now we have to figure out how to use all of this bandwidth!

ok, what is upload speed? 30Mbit? I bet not. Some How I doubt he is getting 15Mbit sysmmetrical fiber connection for no $49.

Oh, please tell me who your provider is that is sending you 32Mbit symmetrical to your house...

Here is what Cox communications charges for just 10Mbit symetrical...about $2500 a month!

http://www.cox.com/oc/Business/internet.asp



http://www.isomedia.com/HFN/plans.shtml

1M Symmetrical Internet access & 6 e-mail accounts - $79.95 per month Sign Up Now!
•2M Symmetrical Internet access & 6 e-mail accounts - $149.95 per month Sign Up Now!
•4M Symmetrical Internet access & 6 e-mail accounts - $249.95 per month Sign Up Now!

well i guess there is video game lag on the new sets, there goes my tv im bout to cancel my preorder, im not going to pay 3500 dollars on a tv that is impossible to play video games on

No one ever said it was unplayable.

A friend of mine just got the 720p HLR and he has no issues (hardcore gamer). I'm holding on to the belief that it won't be any worse (same with lip sync and rainbows, if you look for it, you see it), what you want to know is if you notice it in normal use. Given the relationship of lag and response times and that no "serious" gamers have tried it yet, I think its rather positive. Just my thoughts.

The HDMI input only appears to accept 2.0 audio.

How did you confirm this, using the 850? If so, do you know that the 850 outputs 5.1 over the hdmi output?

I don't dispute your numbers. There is a vast disparity of bandwidth availability and cost in the US. If you go to the local phone companies and want a T1, they will often quote rather high prices. But, the point that I and others make is that speeds considered outrageously fast today, may be common sooner than you think. Maybe even sooner than I think!

I think the 30Mbit has 10 or 15 up. I didn't say the 10Mbit was symmetrical but I think he gets around 3 up which isn't too shabby. Still, pretty impressive for $49, eh? My 32Mbit is definitely, without doubt symmetrical.


ok, what is upload speed? 30Mbit? I bet not. Some How I doubt he is getting 15Mbit sysmmetrical fiber connection for no $49.

Here is what Cox communications charges for just 10Mbit symetrical...about $2500 a month!

http://www.cox.com/oc/Business/internet.asp



http://www.isomedia.com/HFN/plans.shtml

1M Symmetrical Internet access & 6 e-mail accounts - $79.95 per month Sign Up Now!
•2M Symmetrical Internet access & 6 e-mail accounts - $149.95 per month Sign Up Now!
•4M Symmetrical Internet access & 6 e-mail accounts - $249.95 per month Sign Up Now!

i play mainly fps games and play them online, so any lag in gaming is pretty unplayable for me, so unless are hardcore gamer tests the tv and says there is no lag samsung will not be seeing my money, sucks they cant just make a tv that doesnt lag, lazy damn people man, all i want is a a 61 inch tv that had no lag, pregferably 1080p

Some companies are laying fiber directly to the home.

Verizon has the fiber up on the poles and I'm so close to having superfast internet. Pricing is:

5 Mbps/2 Mbps for $39.95
15 Mbps/2 Mbps for $49.95
30 Mbps/5 Mbps for $199.95

Gotta love competion.

I don't dispute your numbers. There is a vast disparity of bandwidth availability and cost in the US. If you go to the local phone companies and want a T1, they will often quote rather high prices. But, the point that I and others make is that speeds considered outrageously fast today, may be common sooner than you think. Maybe even sooner than I think!

I think the 30Mbit has 10 or 15 up. I didn't say the 10Mbit was symmetrical but I think he gets around 3 up which isn't too shabby. Still, pretty impressive for $49, eh? My 32Mbit is definitely, without doubt symmetrical.

Backpeddling pretty fast, 3Mbits up and 15Mbits down is NOT symmetrical.

who is your provider?

And who are the providers offering the other services?

Frankly if you went on www.broadbandreports.com and made those statements you'd be laughed off there.

I have the 6168 hooked up to a tw hd8300 via hdmi. I use the tv menu from the 8300, but I cannot even access the tv guide on the tv, it is greyed out. Is it suppossed to be such?

ok, what is upload speed? 30Mbit? I bet not. Some How I doubt he is getting 15Mbit sysmmetrical fiber connection for no $49.

Oh, please tell me who your provider is that is sending you 32Mbit symmetrical to your house...

Here is what Cox communications charges for just 10Mbit symetrical...about $2500 a month!

http://www.cox.com/oc/Business/internet.asp



http://www.isomedia.com/HFN/plans.shtml

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For most of us users, download is what is important. Sending a request
at even 1 Mbit is fine - I am far more interested in a 30Mbit download then
even 5 Mbit upload...

For most of us users, download is what is important. Sending a request
at even 1 Mbit is fine - I am far more interested in a 30Mbit download then
even 5 Mbit upload...


true, but to get a 1080p feed sent to you you're going to need a sustained d/l of 40Mbps. And that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

40mbs with mpeg4?

40mbs with mpeg4?


yes and transmitted using QAM-256, one 6Mhz channel cable using QAM-256 mode can send 38.8 Mbps of digital video/audio.

Then there is data transmission overhead on top of that and then the real problem server latency...which is really the bane of the internet now for many.

i play mainly fps games and play them online, so any lag in gaming is pretty unplayable for me, so unless are hardcore gamer tests the tv and says there is no lag samsung will not be seeing my money, sucks they cant just make a tv that doesnt lag, lazy damn people man, all i want is a a 61 inch tv that had no lag, pregferably 1080p


And I want a Porsche that can break the sound bearer!

I just don't think it will happen with electronic scaling/Digital TVs - it simply takes time to crunch numbers. CRTs are about the only thing that will since there is zero processing - excluding comb filter circuits, etc.

Some companies are laying fiber directly to the home. I have heard of at least
one community ( If I remember correctly somewhere in Texas ) where a
60 Mbit pipe runs about $59.95 a month...

I have a friend getting about 15Mbit in Huntington Beach from fiber running
directly to his house.

Its closer than many think...

Verizon is the in the lead of making fiber connections (Fios) available throughout the country.

The connections and monthly prices are as follows

Up to 5 Mbps/2 Mbps $39.95
Up to 15 Mbps/2 Mbps $49.95
Up to 30 Mbps/5 Mbps $199.95

Being roughly the price of DSL - it makes sense to switch. That being said - since verizon has to run new fiber cables into each neighborhood, it is going to take time to be readily available.

You can find out more and if you qualify here

http://www22.verizon.com/fiosforhome/channels/fios/root/about_fios.asp

Received my 5668W today

You sure that is a 68? The picture looks like a 78 with the black border.

You sure that is a 68? The picture looks like a 78 with the black border.

Nope, it's a 68--notice the gap between the bottom of the screen and the strip along the bottom (this is the "floating screen" design). The bezel on the 78 is a shiny black, whereas this bezel is matte. The photo is just too dark to see that the bezel isn't really black.

You sure that is a 68? The picture looks like a 78 with the black border.

Yea its a 68... Here's another pic:

http://www.voidyourwarranty.net/sammy.jpg

Now I gotta get all the wires cleaned up and get the rest of my system calibrated and configured...

I called Samsung earlier today and was pleasantly surprised to learn that I may have been the very first to receive their new flagship HLR5688W. I am still running tests using all my components, but here's a digital picture of this amazing HDTV at work. :)

Samsung HLR5688W
http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphoto.php/photo/15816/size/big

test out some games and let us know

Backpedaling? I said nothing I don't stand behind. I did not say symmetrical on those. I will not take your troll bait for a fight. Also, this subthread isn't on topic thus is likely annoying others.

You sir are quite rude, whatever point you were trying to get across.

Backpeddling pretty fast, 3Mbits up and 15Mbits down is NOT symmetrical.

who is your provider?

And who are the providers offering the other services?

Frankly if you went on www.broadbandreports.com and made those statements you'd be laughed off there.

If people are ordering a warranty, which ones are the best? Thanks, Tom

:) DocToss If people are ordering a warranty, which ones are the best? Thanks, Tom

Warrantech Repairmaster is listed on the Stock Exchange and a member of the BBB in good standing. TVA carries these extended warranties on the Power Buy's and they are reasonably priced. I extended my warranty by 4 years for my 6768 that hopefully will ship soon.

Here Take a tour of Warrantech - they cover both Consumer Electronics and Automotive Market. http://www.warrantech.com/virtualview/default.asp

Good Luck!

I called Samsung earlier today and was pleasantly surprised to learn that I may have been the very first to receive their new flagship HLR5688W. I am still running tests using all my components, but here's a digital picture of this amazing HDTV at work. :)

Samsung HLR5688W
http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphoto.php/photo/15816/size/big

Hey push thanks for sharing ya Pics with the rest of us poor 5688 soon-to-be-owners.

Question for you, whats the size of the space / wall where you have the 5688 & speakers, A/V rack setup in that Pic?

I received my HL-R6168W late this afternoon and have been absolutely
amazed at the PQ.

I have been mainly watching various DVDs and DVD scenes on my
Denon DVD-3910 via "upconverted" 1080i over HDMI but have also
been checking out HDNET and Discovery HD via Dish Network's
942 HD DVR via 1080i HDMI. I have made no effort to calibrate the
picture yet since the PQ "out of the box" is pretty incredible.

Wow! The colors in the opening scenes of "House of a Thousand Daggers" is
simply amazing on this set. Color was very good on my JVC D-ILA ( one of its
stronger points ) but compared to this set the colors looked very washed out.
Colors are deep with blue looking blue, red looking red, etc. I have not seen
a single rainbow yet but this is my first DLP that I have owned and I have never
seen a rainbow in any store on any friend's set.

The "Cave Scene" in Tomb Raider II literally blew me away. The shadow detail
is utterly amazing for a rear projector and its hard to imagine this particular
scene looking any better - and the source is only 480i! Viewing various other
scenes, I have noticed the shadow detail on this unadjusted set is the best I
have seen on a rear projection TV, but still has much room for improvement to
rival high end 9 in. CRTs. But the blacks are as good if not better than what I
have seen on many but not all CRTs.

The opening scenes of Gladiator, which I also viewed on the Mits 1080p DLP
52 in., looked just as incredible. In these I could see most if not all of the
shadow detail. The scene looked pretty much the same on the Mits as the
Sammy and I am assuming the Mits was unadjusted as is mine at this point.
Needless to state my JVC D-ILA made much of this shadow detail look like "mud".

There is very little macroblocking from the Denon DVD-3910 on this set. I have
to really look for it in most scenes to even see it there ever so slightly. There
have been a few scenes were it was briefly more evident. The MB on the
1080p DLP Mits was more noticable on the same scenes but I am not sure
why.

HDNET and Discovery HD look stunning - I just watched some of 'Choopers"
and really noticed the increase in detail as well how much more the colors
'pop" on this set. The blacks are really black - hard to believe how much
of a difference this makes - its been a couple years since I had CRT in
the house.

Most of the other HD channels look pretty bad. It is obvious a great deal
of compression is being used in their broadcast. Besides HDNET and
Discovery HD it looks like we will have to wait for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray
to really take advantage of what this set has to offer.

Well, back to drooling over the content my new 1080p DLP TV...

P.S. I have noticed no Video lag on DVDs, HDNET, and Discovery HD but
I did notice severe Video lag on some of the Voom channels...

Now that I have an HDMI only set, which option would be better:

1) buy HDMI to DVI converter ?

2) just buy a new HDMI cable ?

In other words, what effect would/could a converter have on the signal?

Failsafe: convertor?? I think that you will be surprised to find out that a cable with the different connectors on the ends is ALL you need.

I received my HL-R6168W late this afternoon and have been absolutely
amazed at the PQ.

I have been mainly watching various DVDs and DVD scenes on my
Denon DVD-3910 via "upconverted" 1080i over HDMI but have also
been checking out HDNET and Discovery HD via Dish Network's
942 HD DVR via 1080i HDMI. I have made no effort to calibrate the
picture yet since the PQ "out of the box" is pretty incredible.

Wow! The colors in the opening scenes of "House of a Thousand Daggers" is
simply amazing on this set. Color was very good on my JVC D-ILA ( one of its
stronger points ) but compared to this set the colors looked very washed out.
Colors are deep with blue looking blue, red looking red, etc. I have not seen
a single rainbow yet but this is my first DLP that I have owned and I have never
seen a rainbow in any store on any friend's set.

The "Cave Scene" in Tomb Raider II literally blew me away. The shadow detail
is utterly amazing for a rear projector and its hard to imagine this particular
scene looking any better - and the source is only 480i! Viewing various other
scenes, I have noticed the shadow detail on this unadjusted set is the best I
have seen on a rear projection TV, but still has much room for improvement to
rival high end 9 in. CRTs. But the blacks are as good if not better than what I
have seen on many but not all CRTs.

The opening scenes of Gladiator, which I also viewed on the Mits 1080p DLP
52 in., looked just as incredible. In these I could see most if not all of the
shadow detail. The scene looked pretty much the same on the Mits as the
Sammy and I am assuming the Mits was unadjusted as is mine at this point.
Needless to state my JVC D-ILA made much of this shadow detail look like "mud".

There is very little macroblocking from the Denon DVD-3910 on this set. I have
to really look for it in most scenes to even see it there ever so slightly. There
have been a few scenes were it was briefly more evident. The MB on the
1080p DLP Mits was more noticable on the same scenes but I am not sure
why.

HDNET and Discovery HD look stunning - I just watched some of 'Choopers"
and really noticed the increase in detail as well how much more the colors
'pop" on this set. The blacks are really black - hard to believe how much
of a difference this makes - its been a couple years since I had CRT in
the house.

Most of the other HD channels look pretty bad. It is obvious a great deal
of compression is being used in their broadcast. Besides HDNET and
Discovery HD it looks like we will have to wait for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray
to really take advantage of what this set has to offer.

Well, back to drooling over the content my new 1080p DLP TV...

P.S. I have noticed no Video lag on DVDs, HDNET, and Discovery HD but
I did notice severe Video lag on some of the Voom channels...

Tony,

It sounds like you are running the Denon 3910 in 480i mode. Is this correct? Have you tried 1080i yet? Can you confirm or reject the terrible macroblocking that I saw on this setting at Magnolia HiFi?