Now that I have an HDMI only set, which option would be better:

1) buy HDMI to DVI converter ?

2) just buy a new HDMI cable ?

In other words, what effect would/could a converter have on the signal?

If you're connecting a Comcast stb, e.g., that has a DVI out, to the HDMI of the tv, then a DVI-HDMI cable is the simplest. Cost is essentially the same as a DVI-DVI or HDMI-HDMI cable, e.g., ~ $30 for 2 meters.

I returned to Magnolia HiFi in San Ramon today to take a look at the HLR5678W they had setup yesterday. I’d like to thank the Magnolia staff for their patience and allowing me to test and evaluate the unit. Thanks!

When I arrived, they had a Samsung DVD-HD950 connected to the TV.

If you will remember, I was at Magnolia last week and saw a Denon 3910 DVD player that was having extensive problems on a HLR5078W. It was showing horrible macroblocking. On that earlier trip, we connected a Samsung player to the 5078 and it was doing a nice job (HDMI, 480p). At the time I thought the player was a Samsung DVD-HD941, but it may have been a DVD-HD850 (there seems to be some confusion).

Back to today’s trip, the Samsung DVD-HD950 was doing a nice job. It was connected via HDMI at 1080i.

I asked the staff at Magnolia if I could test a Panasonic DVD-S97S that was in another part of the store. They agreed and we installed the S97 on the 5678 (HDMI, 1080i). I had high hopes for the Panasonic because its 10 bit HDMI interface should have produced a really nice image (many players still use DVI’s 8 bit color). In addition, it has a number of adjustments and includes the ability to add an audio delay at the DVD player to compensate for any video lag. It uses the Faroudja chip. It has a reputation as having picture quality equal to the top rated OPPO, but better build quality. Seemed like an ideal DVD player for the 68 / 78 series.

Well … it didn’t perform as well as the Samsung 950. In some scenes there was more video noise (macroblocking?) than I would want. It was easy to see. I would not purchase this player. Probably less than on the Denon, but a distracting amount of junk. This was really disappointing because I have several Panasonic players and I really like the S97.

I put the Samsung back on the TV and confirmed that it was better.

Unfortunately, I did not have time to try all of the many Panasonic S97 adjustments in the hope of improving the picture.

There was one more test that I did not have the time to perform, but wish I had. I wish I had tried sending the image out of the Samsung 950 at 480p (via HDMI) and letting the TV scale the picture. It just seemed like the images on my last trip when I was using a digital 480p feed were better. But, I am not sure about this because I stepped up from the 50” to the 56” and maybe it was just easier to see picture flaws.

Anyway, I would like to hear feedback from Panasonic S97, Samsung 950, OPPO, and Denon 3910 owners. I’m posting these observations so we can start think about which DVD player will work best on these sets.

Tony,

It sounds like you are running the Denon 3910 in 480i mode. Is this correct? Have you tried 1080i yet? Can you confirm or reject the terrible macroblocking that I saw on this setting at Magnolia HiFi?

Hi UCSB,

I am viewing the Denon output via YCbCr 1080i over HDMI but the source is
480i ( on the DVD ). Macroblocking is very minimal and you have really look
for it in most scenes to see it - with some scenes not seeing at all no matter
how hard I look. I have noticed it is more apparent on a few scenses but
nothing major. I was ready to upgrade my DVD player but not sure if I will now...

Was the 3910 hooked up directly to the set or were there numerous splitter
boxes, etc.?


Also spoke too soon regarding Video lag - the show right now on Discovery HD is
having some major video lag - this seems to be show dependent as 'Chooper'
did not seem to have this problem or if it did it was so slight I did not notice it.

The increase in detail from my 720p JVC is blowing me away - this is really cool!

Hi UCSB,

I am viewing the Denon output via YCbCr 1080i over HDMI but the source is
480i ( on the DVD ). Macroblocking is very minimual and you have really look
for it in most scenes to see it. I have noticed it is more apparent on a few
scenses but nothing major. I was ready to upgrade my DVD player but
not sure if I will now...

Was the 3910 hooked up directly to the set or was there numberous splitter
boxes, etc.?


Also spoke to soon regarding Video lag - the show on Discovery HD is having
some major video lag - this seems to be show dependent as 'Chooper'
seem to have this problem or if it did it was so slight I did not notice it.

The increase in detail from my 720p JVC is blowing me away - this is really cool!

The DVD player was connected directly to the set via a high quality HDMI cable (1080i). I had three test DVD's. Two looked OK, but the third was really bad. It was a Star Wars DVD (Attack of the Clones). Perhaps the player just needed a little more setup.

The DVD player was connected directly to the set via a high quality HDMI cable (1080i). I had three test DVD's. Two looked OK, but the third was really bad. It was a Star Wars DVD (Attack of the Clones). Perhaps the player just needed a little more setup.

Any particular scene of Attack of the Clones? - I'll check it out on my setup...

Any particular scene of Attack of the Clones - I'll check it out on my setup...

If you have the DVD, load it and just move between the scenes. The problems should show up. Look for scenes that are medium to lower brightness. Interior shots where there are solid colored walls seemed to be a problem. I was using a store copy, I'll have to look around and find my own copy and give you a specific scene number. That may take a little time given the size of my collection.

If you have the DVD, load it and just move between the scenes. The problems should show up. Look for scenes that are medium to lower brightness. Interior shots where there are solid colored walls seemed to be a problem. I was using a store copy, I'll have to look around and find my own copy and give you a specific scene number. That may take a little time given the size of my collection.

I'll pop it in and check out some of the darker scenes.

Anyway, I would like to hear feedback from Panasonic S97, Samsung 950, OPPO, and Denon 3910 owners. I’m posting these observations so we can start think about which DVD player will work best on these sets.


Oppo Digital DV971H DVD Player Review.
Found this while i was searching definition of macroblocking.
http://forums.eyo.com.au/showthread.php?t=110952&highlight=oppo

I'll pop it in and check out some of the darker scenes.


Definitely notice substantially more on this DVD - especially the dark
scenes. Even scenes with a great deal of monochrome red show
quite a bit.

I guess I will be upgrading my DVD player - I really hate to give up the
overall PQ of the Denon 3910 but I hear the Pioneer Elite 59avi is
suppose to be close with no MB...

Definitely notice substantially more on this DVD - especially the dark
scenes. Even scenes with a great deal of monochrome red show
quite a bit.

I guess I will be upgrading my DVD player - I really hate to give up the
overall PQ of the Denon 3910 but I hear the Pioneer Elite 59avi is
suppose to be close with no MB...

Can it be eliminated by sending over 480i or 480p?

Can it be eliminated by sending over 480i or 480p?

It doesn't output 480i and I just checked 480p and the PQ is noticably worse...

OK ... thanks for running the tests.

[QUOTE=PushStar]I called Samsung earlier today and was pleasantly surprised to learn that I may have been the very first to receive their new flagship HLR5688W. I am still running tests using all my components, but here's a digital picture of this amazing HDTV at work. :)

Pushstar... great pic! Nice-looking setup! Can't wait for my 6163 coming next week. :) Bill

AkaStp

Yes I was going to chime in about the video lag on those stations as I saw people reporting them on their new sets and it's the broadcast not the Samsungs - I'm still viewing my Sharp LCD and experienced the same video lag tonight and several times during the past week. It occurs once in awhile and you tolerate it for the fantastic viewing experience - provides dwarfing the impact of anything less. :D

tonydeluce
i also have a dish hd 942. thanks for your input in advance.

1. is the lip sync channel dependant and show dependant? do ota hd broadcasts have lip sync?
2. on the 942 is it consistantly delayed so that an avr adjustment could compensate or would one have to change settings for every show.
3.how is SD on the samsung PQ, lip sync?

thanks i am on the fence after reading about the lip sync . my receiver does not have an audio delay adjustment after i was told i would never need it and might wait for the JVC sets to compare the 2. and the 68 and 78 are MIA in my neck of the woods.

also has anyone used the oppo dvd on hdmi and component noticed lip sync?
has the audio /video lag adjustment able to compensate this?

would the service menu audio delay adjustments only adjust the audio internal to the tv and not the video? someone mentioned 3 different ones.

could it be possible a video delay setting is lurking in the service menu or is that wishful thinking.

just when i was going to pull the trigger on one of these i had to come back from vacation to 5 pages of posts on video delay. maybe this will be resolved

tonydeluce
i also have a dish hd 942. thanks for your input in advance.

1. is the lip sync channel dependant and show dependant? do ota hd broadcasts have lip sync?
2. on the 942 is it consistantly delayed so that an avr adjustment could compensate or would one have to change settings for every show.
3.how is SD on the samsung PQ, lip sync?

thanks i am on the fence after reading about the lip sync . my receiver does not have an audio delay adjustment after i was told i would never need it and might wait for the JVC sets to compare the 2. and the 68 and 78 are MIA in my neck of the woods.

also has anyone used the oppo dvd on hdmi and component noticed lip sync?

It appears to be show dependent. The 'chooper' show seemed o.k.
Some of the Voom channels are much worse than others so no
'constant' would work. I haven't noticed this before - maybe Dish
is having bad night?

SD is very good - slightly better PQ on my 61 in. Sammy versus 52 in. JVC D-ILA -
I haven't noticed any lag on any SD but haven't been really watching much
of it...

I am getting zero lag via my Denon 3910.

it doesn't matter if you watch it in dvr mode does it and pause it to reset the sync? also does it matter if it is connected component or hdmi?
to toony per dish hd942 dvr

Just got my 6168 today. I just noticed that the manual that shipped with the unit was for the xx67 series. Everyone else get the right manual?

I got the 78 series with a 6168.

westa does the 950 offer a audio/video delay?

what kind of feed do you notice lip sync currently cable, direct tv? any ota lip sync?

thanks for your posts you seem to push the conversations forward.

it doesn't matter if you watch it in dvr mode does it and pause it to reset the sync? also does it matter if it is connected component or hdmi?
to toony per dish hd942 dvr

I only have HDMI not component...

No video lag on shows I already have recorded on my DVR.

I might hold off on a DVD player - I would have to pay
as much for a DVD player as I did for the TV to get
something similiar or better with no MB...

It has only been really bad on dark scenes on Star
Wars II...

I am still captivated by the PQ on this set via 3910..

Yeah we switched to zoom1 and it still looked pretty good at first I thought I saw some upscaling issues but they either stopped or I got used to them... It appears that the current edition is anamorphic, I think I'll upgrade, or perhaps just wait for the HD version... I'll check my local Hollywood Video (I got MVP) maybe I can compare it with my copy...
... and ccouper

I just watched Dark City -- New Line Platinum Series.

I got it at Netflix and it comes with the widescreen version on one side and the pan and scan version on the other side.

I put the disk into the DVD drive with the Widescreen label up. The results were outstanding. It's a great film to test detail in dark cities. :)

My HTPC was outputting 720p through DVI. The HLP5063 was set to Expand mode. The image was a "correct" 2.35:1 aspect ratio with the correct black bars top and bottom.

Now I need to figure out if I want my own copy.

Watching the collosium scene in Star Wars II - there is a hell of a lot of stuff
I have never seen before :-) Frig'in amazing!

Watching the collosium scene in Star Wars II - there is a hell of a lot of stuff
I have seen before :-) Frig'in amazing!
Did you mean "haven't seen before"?

Did you mean "haven't seen before"?


Yes :-) I just edited the post - thanks!

[
Anyway, I would like to hear feedback from Panasonic S97, Samsung 950, OPPO, and Denon 3910 owners. I’m posting these observations so we can start think about which DVD player will work best on these sets.[/QUOTE]

Today was my second day with my new 6168. I turned it on this afternoon even though I had a lot of stuff to do (couldn't resist) I ended up watching "Hogans Heros" on HD Net. I hadn't seen that old show in years, and now here I was watching it in super video quality with no commercials! No lip synch, but was using TV audio and not my Yamaha.

Tonight I watched "MASH" on my Samsung 950 with the AVR for audio. I think I detected at times a bit of Lip synch problems, but if so it was not very much. And DVDs like this one have been remastered, so who knows? I had the output set at 1080i but may try watching a "newer" movie tomorrow switching between 480p and 1080i to see if any one looks better.

DiscoveryHD was still way off in lip synch with both TV and AVR audio.

p.s. got a little scared when i first turned on the TV because it definitely turned on but the screen stayed dark. However, when I finally monkeyed with the change source button the screen immediatedly lit up and all was well.

... and ccouper

I just watched Dark City -- New Line Platinum Series.

I got it at Netflix and it comes with the widescreen version on one side and the pan and scan version on the other side.

I put the disk into the DVD drive with the Widescreen label up. The results were outstanding. It's a great film to test detail in dark cities. :)

My HTPC was outputting 720p through DVI. The HLP5063 was set to Expand mode. The image was a "correct" 2.35:1 aspect ratio with the correct black bars top and bottom.

Now I need to figure out if I want my own copy.
OK. I will have to trade my old one in.

OK. I will have to trade my old one in.
It's $8.95 at Amazon.

The audio was noticably out of sync when watching the Fifth Element. When (if?) I finally get my HD950 I will try it again to make sure it is repeatable. That is the only time I have noticed audio lag on my set.
I can try this out if you tell me which scenes it has the delay in. It will be Friday before I can test.

UCSB, thats not what I was hoping to hear about the Panny S97 (which I have). Do you know if the Panny S97 was an older build with the older firmware (pre 540) or a newer build with the latest firmware? The new firmware version (540) reduces MB. My Panny S97 is a Sept 04 build with 540 firmware. Later this week I'll try to take over to the store where I've been viewing a 5078 to see how it looks. I'll also see if they have a latest build to test with. Btw, MB over HDMI aside, the S97 is also an excellent 480p component player.

Everyone who is testing lag: Discovery HD seems to be having a problem with lip synch this week. Some programs are very bad. I see it on my lag-free HLM507 even when using the TV's speakers. So, Discovery HD is probably not a reliable source of material right now for testing for lag.

Testing these DVD players is really turning into a humbling experience ... I am sorry that I didn't check the firmware level. I had the impression the player had been in the store for a while (so my guess is that it was not the latest firmware). I think Magnolia usually puts an item on the floor when it is first available.

Don't give up on your S97 yet. I would be very interested in hearing how the latest firmware works out. Make sure you post your results or PM me. Overall the S97 had worked it's way up to the top of my list of players based on price/features ... the picture was not horrible, but just a little annoying with challenging material. Now I have had to move it down into second place after the Samsung 950. It would probably work well with most DVD's. Let's hope the firmware fix is enough to solve the problems.

I also have a Denon 3910. It is not yet hooked up to the HLR6178. So soon, I can contribute to the pool of knowledge.

I guess I was a bit clumsy in asking my question about the cables. I have a good DVI cable which used to connect the Denon 3910 to my old set. With the new arrival of the HLR6178, I no longer have the DVI input I previously used. Thus what I was trying to ask was if I should buy a new HDMI-HDMI cable or just a DVI-HDMI adapter for use with the old DVI cable.

In any case, my Denon doesn't have long to wait. I'll get something tomorrow. I looked at the local Best Buy/Magnolia at HDMI cables and the prices are outrageous. They push overpriced Audioquests at over $200 for some and I dislike Monster more on a corporate "snake oil" seller way than having a big problem with their quality. I know about Blue Jeans Cable but I'd hate to have to wait a week for an order. Decisions, decisions...

I also have a Denon 3910. It is not yet hooked up to the HLR6178. So soon, I can contribute to the pool of knowledge.

I guess I was a bit clumsy in asking my question about the cables. I have a good DVI cable which used to connect the Denon 3910 to my old set. With the new arrival of the HLR6178, I no longer have the DVI input I previously used. Thus what I was trying to ask was if I should buy a new HDMI-HDMI cable or just a DVI-HDMI adapter for use with the old DVI cable.

In any case, my Denon doesn't have long to wait. I'll get something tomorrow. I looked at the local Best Buy/Magnolia at HDMI cables and the prices are outrageous. They push overpriced Audioquests at over $200 for some and I dislike Monster more on a corporate "snake oil" seller way than having a big problem with their quality. I know about Blue Jeans Cable but I'd hate to have to wait a week for an order. Decisions, decisions...

The Denon DVD-3910 outputs 10 bits over HDMI, DVI maxes out at 8 bits
so I would get an HDMI - HDMI cable - a cheap one should work - its all or nothing
when it comes to digital so as long as its not over 10 feet in lengh you should
be o.k.

I got some really good BetterCables but spent about $50 more then I needed
to but I figure what the hell - after spending this much on a TV what's $50?

P.S. I pulled the trigger and orderd a Pioneer Elite 59avi because it does not have
the same chip as the 3910 which has a known MB issue. I will report on its
performance when I get it in which hopefully is sometime next week.

I recently received my 5078, and have one of the svideo inputs being fed by a Tivo.

I immediately noticed that the bottom of the text generated by the Tivo menu system was cut off -- would have to guess about an inch or so of information, as changing aspect ratios would recover the missing info. I attributed this to overscan -- too much I imagine.

Then, yesterday I was standing up next to the unit, when I noticed that the missing image was actually being projected behind the black frame -- looking straight down revealed image behind the bezel.

Am I correct that this is not overscan, but in fact a zoom/focus problem. If so, is this something that a service tech can correct? So I contact TV Authority?

Link to the Samsung HD950 Manual - Page 61 covers the Audio Settings and other areas of interest - since folks are reviewing DVD's.

http://product.samsung.com/cgi-bin/nabc/support/b2c_downloadcenter_detail.jsp?eUser=&mobile=N&oid=74419&cntType=UM&cntId=328198&lang=EN

So far I see a good 1080i and no MB or lip sync but I'm running hdmi to the TV and waiting to test with 6768 channeled through the AVR and that may be a different story. :D

Assuming the set is cold, from the time you hit the power button until a full vibrant image is completely viewable, takes how long?

If I remember correctly, some of the DLP's from Samsung took a while to completely WARM up.

Kyle, thanks for the info. Did you try turning off DNR and/or labeling the Xbox input as GAME to see if that helped with the lag?

Slimjim,

GAME and DNR off didn't seem to help much with the lag we noticed on Halo 2. (in fact, unless I just didnt see it anywhere else, all GAME does is change the label for the input source you hooked it up to - component 2 in our case - and makes it say GAME instead of component 2). We did however set the Look Sensitivity in the contoller settings to 1 (Low) and it helped a LOT! The lag we noticed was *nearly* gone. There's still a bit there, but like I said, we got used to it and can play normally after a few rounds of 'practice'. This 'look sensitivty' however is only a Halo 2 setting and I can't say I've found that setting on other games. Its definitely not an XBOX setting.

I should also mention that Halo 2 was the only game we've noticed lag on. We've tried Splinter Cell 2, Lego Star Wars, Van Helsing, Destory All Humans, Fantastic 4, Ghost Recon 2 - no lag on any of them. I think lag is going have to be evaluated on a game by game basis.

Kyle

Slimjim,

GAME and DNR off didn't seem to help much with the lag we noticed on Halo 2. (in fact, unless I just didnt see it anywhere else, all GAME does is change the label for the input source you hooked it up to - component 2 in our case - and makes it say GAME instead of component 2). We did however set the Look Sensitivity in the contoller settings to 1 (Low) and it helped a LOT! The lag we noticed was *nearly* gone. There's still a bit there, but like I said, we got used to it and can play normally after a few rounds of 'practice'. This 'look sensitivty' however is only a Halo 2 setting and I can't say I've found that setting on other games. Its definitely not an XBOX setting.

I should also mention that Halo 2 was the only game we've noticed lag on. We've tried Splinter Cell 2, Lego Star Wars, Van Helsing, Destory All Humans, Fantastic 4, Ghost Recon 2 - no lag on any of them. I think lag is going have to be evaluated on a game by game basis.

Kyle

Kyle, Thanks alot for the information. I appreciate it.

Ok, I'm about 5 pages behind but here is how I've setup my tv that I got last friday:

Scientific Atlanta 8300HD component out directly to the tv component 1 input. Optical out of the SA8300HD into my Outlaw 950 optical 1 input. HD box has been setup (pushing guide and info when box is powered off on the front buttons) to pass-thru the correct resolutions. Pass-thru is selected in the setup menu. I have the 2 hdnet channels, the 2 inhd channels, espn hd, discovery hd, fox, abc, cbs, nbc and tnt. HD looks great. Love it. I recorded the shuttle launch special on hdnet and got to watch just the first few minutes of it this morning of the shuttle on the pad. Amazing. I'll have pictures up probably next week or tonight if I can get a chance. Normal tv doesn't look horrible but you can tell the quality of normal channels and how bad it really is. Its watchable but I wish everything were in hidef. I had audio lag only once. I was watching a recorded show that happened to have been recorded during a thunderstorm that interrupted the cable feed. Caused the recording to flake out and when it returned video and audio were out of wack. It corrected itself though so it was just the source material. I have seen some color banding, but I'm convinced it was the source material. I was watching a discover hd show that was recorded. I have not seen it on any live material.

DVD. Panasonic S97 connected with HDMI cable out of the player and into the tv directly. Optical out from the S97 into my outlaw 950 optical 2 input. S97 is upconverting to 1080i. Currently no audio lag detected. I've watched scenes from various movies but haven't watched a complete dvd yet. I could turn off the upconversion and see what happens to the audio delay if anyone cares, but since its an upconverting player it would be dumb to run it in 480i only. Macroblocking. I haven't checked yet. Someone mentioned Ladder 49. I don't have that movie. Is there another movie that presents macroblocking easily?

I don't have my PS2 or gamecube hooked up yet. Probably next week.

Overall I'm very happy with it. I have not heard the fan yet at all. With normal tv shows in 4:3 the side bars are straight. I have no bowing at all. I have sharpness all the way down. I've played with it all the way up and cycled all the way down. I saw no difference at all. I can't remember what my contrast, brightness and color are set at. I've seen no diamond pixels. I've also seen no rainbows. I have seen rainbows with a dell dlp projector, but I have never seen rainbows on dlp tv's and I don't see them on this one either. I've even tried going into convulsions to see them but I don't. Eye fatigue and headaches don't seem to be issues either. The first weekend I watched a ton of just normal tv. During the day there are windows that shoot light into the room. The glare is no problem off the tv. It obviously effects the image but thats just the room.

I was so worried about lip syncing issues. But after seeing for myself that I am not experiencing them I'm thinking more and more that its a source problem more than anything else.

DVD. Panasonic S97 connected with HDMI cable out of the player and into the tv directly. Optical out from the S97 into my outlaw 950 optical 2 input. S97 is upconverting to 1080i. I could turn off the upconversion and see what happens to the audio delay if anyone cares, but since its an upconverting player it would be dumb to run it in 480i only.
Not necessarily. The scaler/deinterlacer in your multi-thousand $$$ TV could very well do a better job than the one in your $300 DVD player. Certainly worth a try... :)

so I would get an HDMI - HDMI cable - a cheap one should work - its all or nothing when it comes to digital so as long as its not over 10 feet in lengh you shouldbe o.k.

I got some really good BetterCables but spent about $50 more then I needed
to but I figure what the hell - after spending this much on a TV what's $50?

Pacificcables are quite a bit more reasonable price-wise, and the ones I've gotten from them have been just fine.

Samsung HLR5688W
http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphoto.php/photo/15816/size/big

Nice, but can we time our screenshots such that they show the Yankees winning, please? ;)

This lip sync issue has got me worried.

It sounds like the issue is when you have the audio going from the tv to the AVR???

As per a previous suggestion, I will probably have my video from the stb and dvd going to the TV via HDMI and the audio directly from the stb and the dvd to my AVR via Digital Coaxial. Am I less likely to experience this lip sync problem???

-dreamr

I have seen lip sync issues on my 5668...HOWEVER, i went to my other CRTs and they also had the same issue. Synopsis, Source material. I have seen lip sync isuues on all my CRTs in recent history with and without and AVR hooked up. I attribute all this to source material.

Episode I: D@mn Cats

In case you're wondering why I haven't reported back on my 5078 yet: Didn't unbox my 5078 until yesterday evening ... had to go back to work to take care of a few things. First thing I do is pull the box lid off and unwrap the set ... sigh ... screen looks smooth and clean, no evidence of physical damage. I wrap it back up for the time being, but don't put the box lid back on. So while I'm waiting for my wife to get home to help lift the set into the cabinet, I work on unpacking and setting up my new DVD-HD950 and 8300HD. The process went something like this:

Step 1: Open box and remove component, accessories and manuals
Step 2: Remove cat from box
Step 3: Put other cat and box on floor
Step 4: Stop first cat from chewing on plastic wrappers for wires
Step 5: Curse
Step 6: Unwrap all wires and manuals
Step 7: Retrieve HDMI from mouth of second cat
Step 8: Curse
Step 9: Repeat for 8300HD

I've reviewed all of the cabling provided with both components and I'm getting up to start hooking everything up. I hear thump! and scccccrrrrraaaaappppppe! and to my horror I see that the first cat has tried (unsuccessfully) to jump atop the partially unboxed 5078 (only minimally protected by the wrapping). She's hanging there, slowly sliding down the front of the set as the padded wrapping slides down the screen under her weight.

SON OF A [BLEEP BLEEPING BLEEP BLEEP]!!!!

The cat's down on the carpet again, and with much trepidation I finish uncovering the screen ..... whew ..... not a single scratch, dent or blemish of any kind. I whirl around, and both of them are sitting there, looking at me as if I'd gone absolutely insane. "I'm so [bleeping] stupid! I have a $4k tv for an hour and I almost ruin it!" I don't know who I was talking to.

Needless to say, both cats ended up locked in the finished basement for a while.

Moral? LOCK your d@mn cats up before you install your new Sammy. Please make me the only stupid one here. :o

Got my 6168 yesterday. Hooked it up as follows:
1. Comast DCT 6200 via component and DVI. Component looks great. DVI (using DVI to HDMI) sucks. Looks like the picture is great initially, but after few minutes it gets patches of red (some blue as well) throughout the screen to the extent that it is unwatchable! Anyone have issues like this? I don't have any other DVI/HDMI sources. Planning to borrow HDMI DVD player from my friend this evening and try it out. Hopefully, it is the DCT6200 and not the TV!
As far as audio goes, optical out from DCT 6200 goes to my HK AVR135. Noticed slight lip sync issues, but really had to look for it though. It was not that obvious.

2. HTPC via VGA. If I set the resolution to 1920x1080, I get a message saying 'Mode not supported'?? I thought some people tried and it works?
3. I have SAGE TV as my PVR. Right now, connected via S-video out of my XCARD. Tried component out of the XCARD, but the picture was completely blue. No time to look at why this is.
4. 4 year old toshiba DVD player. Connected through component. Optical out to my HK receiver. Again, slight lip sync issues, but not noticeable if you are not specifically looking for it.

Really did not get much time to play with so far. Planning to spend more time this weekend.
Overall picture quality is stunning (even via component). I was a little worried about the viewing distance. I am watching from 12-13 feet. I wanted to get a 5668, but since 6168 was only a few hundred dollars more, I went for it. It looked really big initially (replacing a 8 year old 27" CRT!!!), but after a few hours, got used to it (like most people here said).

Sorry, not a gamer. But, one of my friends will be coming over today. He is a XBOX guy. I will ask him to bring his XBOX and try it. I am planning to get inot gaming in the near future anyway!

Verizon is the in the lead of making fiber connections (Fios) available throughout the country.

The connections and monthly prices are as follows

Up to 5 Mbps/2 Mbps $39.95
Up to 15 Mbps/2 Mbps $49.95
Up to 30 Mbps/5 Mbps $199.95

Being roughly the price of DSL - it makes sense to switch. That being said - since verizon has to run new fiber cables into each neighborhood, it is going to take time to be readily available.

You can find out more and if you qualify here

http://www22.verizon.com/fiosforhome/channels/fios/root/about_fios.asp

Now those prices and services for that price point I believe... :)

Backpedaling? I said nothing I don't stand behind. I did not say symmetrical on those. I will not take your troll bait for a fight. Also, this subthread isn't on topic thus is likely annoying others.

You sir are quite rude, whatever point you were trying to get across.

Hey, just name your provider that is giving you 32Mbps symmetrical connection to your house. If your not willing to do that than I am not buying your claim. It's not troll bait for a fight, I am calling you out on your claim and you just refuse to back it up with some facts...

Just fyi for those who are concerned about rainbows, headaches, etc.

I watched my 6168 for a good 8 to 10 hours last night with no eye
fatigue, no headaches, and not a single rainbow ( not looking for any
either :-) This is much longer than I typically ever watched with
my JVC D-ILA...

I also mentioned quite a bit about the blacks yesterday - but
check out the whites - they are really white!

. I am planning to get inot gaming in the near future anyway!


Does anyone know a good place to pre-order the XBOX360?

Macroblocking. I haven't checked yet. Someone mentioned Ladder 49. I don't have that movie. Is there another movie that presents macroblocking easily?

Star Wars: Attack of the Clones seems to be a demanding disc that will bring out problems.

Link to the Samsung HD950 Manual - Page 61 covers the Audio Settings and other areas of interest - since folks are reviewing DVD's.


So far I see a good 1080i and no MB or lip sync but I'm running hdmi to the TV and waiting to test with 6768 channeled through the AVR and that may be a different story. :D

Just so I understand...

I'm still waiting patiently in line for the TVA PB, so I don't have my hlr or 950 dvd.

When I do get them, if I cable the stb and dvd to the tv via hdmi cables and then go from the tv to the avr via optical and I configure the output to be Bitstream instead of PCM, I will get the native home theatre output (DD 5.1, DTS 5.1, etc) at my receiver without any video lag (audio too fast).

Normally I would bypass the TV for the audio output, but if the TV can sync the video and audio together and pass the correct audio encoding too, that would save me from buying a new receiver.

JWhen I do get them, if I cable the stb and dvd to the tv via hdmi cables and then go from the tv to the avr via optical and I configure the output to be Bitstream instead of PCM, I will get the native home theatre output (DD 5.1, DTS 5.1, etc) at my receiver without any video lag (audio too fast).
So far that's a theory that hasn't worked out from external HDMI sources. It might, but no one has reported that they have confirmed 5.1 audio through the TV's digital output.

Got my 6168 yesterday. Hooked it up as follows:
1. Comast DCT 6200 via component and DVI. Component looks great. DVI (using DVI to HDMI) sucks. Looks like the picture is great initially, but after few minutes it gets patches of red (some blue as well) throughout the screen to the extent that it is unwatchable! Anyone have issues like this? I don't have any other DVI/HDMI sources. Planning to borrow HDMI DVD player from my friend this evening and try it out. Hopefully, it is the DCT6200 and not the TV!


DVI implementation on the 6200 is dependent on quality of local cable company implementation of service (firmware). Give them a call and ask them if you have the latest box/firmware. You might consider upgrading to the 6412, if it is offered.

Has anyone calibrated their new 1080p Samsungs with a calibration DVD or other? If so what settings did you come up with?

From what I have read it seems some people are saying that since the Samsung does not have a Dolby Digital 5.1 decoder in it so this is why it isn't passing the signal. This logic does not make any sense to me. If this was true, you would be able to watch Dolby Digital soundtracks, but would be out of luck if you wanted to watch a DTS soundtrack since no TVs have a DTS decoder built into them. There seems like there is something else that is going on here.

DVI implementation on the 6200 is dependent on quality of local cable company implementation of service (firmware). Give them a call and ask them if you have the latest box/firmware. You might consider upgrading to the 6412, if it is offered.
I have a 6200 and had to configure it to get the best from DVI to HDMI connection. I have 720p selected as output with 480i override turned off.

My STB is a Motorola 6200 from Comcast.

Just fyi for those who are concerned about rainbows, headaches, etc.

I watched my 6168 for a good 8 to 10 hours last night with no eye
fatigue, no headaches, and not a single rainbow ( not looking for any
either :-) This is much longer than I typically ever watched with
my JVC D-ILA...

Tony... how far away do you sit? I am expecting my 6168 next week and made a last-minute decision to jump up from 56" to 61". My only concern was that I sit about 9 to 10 feet away... I've tested this distance from other 61" sets at BB for short periods and I REALLY LIKE IT! But was a little worried about watching for extended periods. I suppose it is a very personal thing, but just curious how far away you sit.

Thanks! Bill

UCSB, tonydeluce, and others that have tried out dvd players with the 1080p Sammies:

Is it a correct summary of your observations to say that the Denon (and other Faroudja [sp?] chipped ones) is sharper than the Sammy 950 (with the Zoran chip) but induces some degree of macroblocking?

From what I have read it seems some people are saying that since the Samsung does not have a Dolby Digital 5.1 decoder in it so this is why it isn't passing the signal. This logic does not make any sense to me. If this was true, you would be able to watch Dolby Digital soundtracks, but would be out of luck if you wanted to watch a DTS soundtrack since no TVs have a DTS decoder built into them. There seems like there is something else that is going on here.

I don't believe any sets will have a DD decoder or a DTS decoder ( I don't
konw of any broadcast of DTS anyway ). All that is required is after the
cable channel is decoded it passes the DD bit stream over the digital
optical output from your Samsung 1080p DLP to your AVR receiver and your
AVR receiver will do the rest.

I'll skip Setup Episodes II and III and cut to the chase ... they weren't as exciting anyway (thankfully!).

Setup notes are below. In short, I'm absolutely thrilled! Due to my setup adventures last night, I didn't get nearly the time I'd like to have had to test different setups, but what I saw was wonderful.

SD
----------------------------------
Looked a lot better than I was expecting. Remember, I'm coming from a 27" Sony Wega CRT, so I haven't lived with a 50"+ SD picture before. Was quite worried that my wife would be disappointed at the expenditure causing us to notice all of the flaws at this size and resolution. It's of course not even close to DVD or HD, but I'm actually quite happy with how the 5078 displays SD content. My wife (who's enjoying this but is by no means into it, commented that the majority of SD channels looked great. As expected, a few programs were extremely soft, but the majority of them looked very nice. The Yankees game last night on ESPN looked quite nice ... in Movie mode it was maybe too dark and too soft, but in Custom mode with slightly higher brightness and contrast settings, and lower sharpening settings, it looked great. Very watchable. :D

HD
----------------------------------
What can I say? HD looked phenomenal to my eyes. I'm very picky in assessing visual quality (designer by trade), but I'm new to HDTV ... so take my comments for what you think they're worth. I'm very happy. :D The combination of increased resolution (from 720p to 1080p) and slightly softened picture (from 1280x720 chip to 960x1080 "wobulated" chip) strikes such a wonderful balance. I always liked the sharpness of the HD2+ 5677, but wanted fewer edge artifacts. The HD3 5663 masked many artifacts, but I felt it went to soft. This new set offers as much of the best of both worlds that I could ask. Color and dynamic range was wonderful ... in Movie mode, very natural, if maybe a bit dim from our slightly lower viewing angle. I was able to see a lot of detail in the darker darks and lighter lights ... no muddying up of blacks or crushing of whites. Immensely happy. :)

DVD
----------------------------------
All of my comments about color, dynamic range and detail hold here as well. On LOTR ROTK, I jumped through different scenes looking for challenging content from the 950 (which was outputting 1080i via HDMI). Black levels are as good as can be expected from a DLP when you have large washes of black (like in Shelob's lair, for instance). I'd expect black levels to be better on a quality CRT, but I've never seen better blacks on a DLP. Once you shift away from floods of black and into more mixed values, the strong contrast ratio really helps deepen the perceived depth of the blacks and it looks absolutely beautiful! Very dimensional. The 950's playback was very smooth, and only choked on a couple tough scenes. For instance, in Shelob's lair (again), there are a couple shots where the bluish indirect light is filtering toward you through the dark tunnel, and there was too much pixel movement in those areas (mosquito noise? not sure of terminology here).

Overall, very impressed in the short time I've used my 5078. More comments and details to come.


Current Setup:

SEATING
----------------------------------
- I'm in a chair 11' straight from screen, eyes about 8" lower than screen center
- Wife typically sits or lies on couch ~9' and 20 degrees from screen
- The cats watch from wherever the h#ll they want to watch

SD AND HDTV (temporary setup until tonight)
----------------------------------
- Cable outlet ---(rg6 coax)--> 5078
- 5078 ---(toslink)--> Denon 1803 AVR

DVD
----------------------------------
- DVD-HD950 ---(HDMI)--> 5078
- DVD-HD950 ---(toslink)--> Denon 1803 AVR

XBOX (as yet untested)
----------------------------------
- Xbox ---(component)--> Denon 1803 AVR ---(component)--> 5078
- Xbox ---(toslink)--> Denon 1803 AVR

PS2 (as yet untested)
----------------------------------
- PS2 ---(component)--> Denon 1803 AVR ---(component)--> 5078
- PS2 ---(toslink)--> Denon 1803 AVR

I have a 6200 and had to configure it to get the best from DVI to HDMI connection. I have 720p selected as output with 480i override turned off.

My STB is a Motorola 6200 from Comcast.

Yes ... that is a good point the 6200 has to be configured in the setup menu. Make sure it is set to 1080i and 16:9 format. But, if problems persist, call your cable provider.

Star Wars: Attack of the Clones seems to be a demanding disc that will bring out problems.

I have that. I will put it in tonight and check it out.

UCSB, tonydeluce, and others that have tried out dvd players with the 1080p Sammies:

Is it a correct summary of your observations to say that the Denon (and other Faroudja [sp?] chipped ones) is sharper than the Sammy 950 (with the Zoran chip) but induces some degree of macroblocking?

I haven't personally viewed the sammy 950. All DVD players that use Faroudja
chip have a known MB problem but this chip is known to produce some of the
sharpest pictures ( you have to spend $3500 or more to get a better
picture with no MB ). The Pioneer Elite 59avi that I ordered last night
can be found for well under $1000 online and has comparable PQ to the 3910
without the Faroudja chip. I should have it by the middle of next week
and will hook up to my 6168 via HDMI and compare it to my 3910. Also
most DVD players don't output 480i but the 59avi does therefore there
is an option to use an external scaler without any pre-processing from the dvd
player.

The MB from the 3910 on to my 6168 was not that bad nor even noticable in
most content. I did observe it more in some scenes and a few scenes
in Star Wars II more dramatically.

Tony... how far away do you sit? I am expecting my 6168 next week and made a last-minute decision to jump up from 56" to 61". My only concern was that I sit about 9 to 10 feet away... I've tested this distance from other 61" sets at BB for short periods and I REALLY LIKE IT! But was a little worried about watching for extended periods. I suppose it is a very personal thing, but just curious how far away you sit.

Thanks! Bill


I have been sitting 9 feet away but may move the couch up a a foot or so to see if
makes any difference.

I have been sitting 9 feet away but may move the couch up a a foot or so to see if
makes any difference.

You're on my wavelength--I sit about 10ft away and am waiting for the 7178!

Re the dvd player: the Pioneer Elite doesn't up-convert to 1080i, does it, like the Denon does? Does that not bother you?

Yes ... that is a good point the 6200 has to be configured in the setup menu. Make sure it is set to 1080i and 16:9 format. But, if problems persist, call your cable provider.
Just to clarify. I have a HLP5063 which is a 720p native set. If I were to find a 1080p set in my driveway I would be sure to restrict our STB to 1080i output. :cool:

You're on my wavelength--I sit about 10ft away and am waiting for the 7178!

Re the dvd player: the Pioneer Elite doesn't up-convert to 1080i, does it, like the Denon does? Does that not bother you?

The Pioneer 59avi does up-convert to 1080i and 720p

I have a 6200 and had to configure it to get the best from DVI to HDMI connection. I have 720p selected as output with 480i override turned off.

My STB is a Motorola 6200 from Comcast.


I tried all possible config. Set the STB to 1080i, 720p with 4:3 override turned on/off. All of them does the same thing. It gets worse by the second and after a couple of minutes, looks horrible! Like a windows PC in safe mode! After I try the DVD player with HDMI this evening, I am planning to try 6412.

Tony... how far away do you sit? I am expecting my 6168 next week and made a last-minute decision to jump up from 56" to 61". My only concern was that I sit about 9 to 10 feet away... I've tested this distance from other 61" sets at BB for short periods and I REALLY LIKE IT! But was a little worried about watching for extended periods. I suppose it is a very personal thing, but just curious how far away you sit.

Thanks! Bill


I did the same thing. Went to different stores and tried watching a 61" from 10-12 feet. Did not look big. The first thing I noticed that is that a 61" looks big in my house than compared to the store! But, I got used to it after few hours. I guess it is a personal preference, but I think you will enjoy it :)

UCSB, tonydeluce, and others that have tried out dvd players with the 1080p Sammies:

Is it a correct summary of your observations to say that the Denon (and other Faroudja [sp?] chipped ones) is sharper than the Sammy 950 (with the Zoran chip) but induces some degree of macroblocking?

millerwill ... I was in the Magnolia HiFi in San Ramon yesterday testing DVD players. When I left, there was the Samsung 950, Denon 3910, and Panasonic S97 connected to the HLR5678W (or on the stand and could be quickly reconnected). You might want to go over there and take a quick look.

There was enough macroblocking on both the 3910 and S97 that I ruled them out. To be fair to the S97, it has a number of settings and I did not try all of the settings. Perhaps there is a setting, such as sharpness, which can be used to reduce macroblocking. I'm not an expert with the 3910 and perhaps there is some combination of settings that may reduce the problem on that player also.

From Tony's posting last night, it seems he has given up on the 3910 and has ordered a Pioneer 59. Since he already owns the 3910, I assumed that he had tried everything to get around the macroblocking problem. I would guess the same is true for the S97. Just to be be clear ... these players may look very good with many DVD's. It is just that on some DVD's and scenes they become annoying.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I ruled the Faroudja players out before I even got the the step where I would have compared softness of the image. My personal working assumption is that all of the Faroudja players (including the OPPO, Panasonic S77) now must be evaluated to see if the problem is present in all of them.

I did do some A / B comparisons between the S97 and 950 and IF the 950 has a softer image it was not a problem. Perhaps it is something that can be tweaked with the sharpness adjustment on the TV. Macroblocking is 10 times more of a problem than softness when looking at the images.

From my perspective, the Samsung 950 is now my baseline player and the challenge will be to find something without the macroblocking that is better than it (Pioneer 59?, but out of my price range prior to HD DVD). The first time I tested DVD players, I thought I was using a Samsung 941, but now realize that it may have been a 850. I couldn't get 1080i working on it (adapter problem?) so I was using 480p over HDMI and I thought it looked very good (maybe better than 1080i on 950 [possible black crush problem, though]). I was on a 50" set. Stepping up to a 56" for my last round of tests made everything look less sharp, but there may be an approach with the Zoran players where the best image may be at 480p (this is unconfirmed). Maybe someone with a 950 can quickly test 480i, 480p, 1080i and let us know which is best.

I tried all possible config. Set the STB to 1080i, 720p with 4:3 override turned on/off. All of them does the same thing. It gets worse by the second and after a couple of minutes, looks horrible! Like a windows PC in safe mode! After I try the DVD player with HDMI this evening, I am planning to try 6412.

Talk to your cable company, they should know the status of the DVI implementation.

Is Samsung using the Faroudja chip for deinterlacing in these sets? I'd be intereseted to know how the Denon 3910 looks if you output 480i through component to the Samsung and see how the Samsung does with the heavy lifting. I have a Denon 5900 and finally "demoted" it to 480i through component because of the macroblocking. It is now going into an iScan HD+ and I'm macroblocking free on my HLN507. I may replace the 5900 or have it SDI modded in order to preserve the digital path when I upgrade to the HLR5078.

DVD
----------------------------------
- DVD-HD950 ---(HDMI)--> 5078
- DVD-HD950 ---(toslink)--> Denon 1803 AVR



Calbert,

Did you notice any sync issues between the video and audio? What audio format did your avr output?

Have you tried: DVD-HD950 ---(HDMI)--> 5078 ---(toslink)--> Denon 1803 AVR ? If not, could you try that setup?

Thanks,

Bob

millerwill ... I was in the Magnolia HiFi in San Ramon yesterday testing DVD players. When I left, there was the Samsung 950, Denon 3910, and Panasonic S97 connected to the HLR5678W (or on the stand and could be quickly reconnected). You might want to go over there and take a quick look.

Thanks for the thoughtful comments (didn't reproduce them all here to save space).

Is Samsung using the Faroudja chip for deinterlacing in these sets? I'd be intereseted to know how the Denon 3910 looks if you output 480i through component to the Samsung and see how the Samsung does with the heavy lifting. I have a Denon 5900 and finally "demoted" it to 480i through component because of the macroblocking. It is now going into an iScan HD+ and I'm macroblocking free on my HLN507. I may replace the 5900 or have it SDI modded in order to preserve the digital path when I upgrade to the HLR5078.

Denon doesn't output 480i over HDMI and the 480p looked noticably worse than
the 1080i. Your solution should greatly reduce the MB but the
iSCAN HD+ runs close to a grand doesn't it? you are also doing
a d/a over component and then another a/d at the iScan HD+.

Talk to your cable company, they should know the status of the DVI implementation.

Thanks. I just called comcast and they said the DVI port should work. They asked me to get a replacement. I might get 6412 as it is only $5 more.

Is Samsung using the Faroudja chip for deinterlacing in these sets? I'd be intereseted to know how the Denon 3910 looks if you output 480i through component to the Samsung and see how the Samsung does with the heavy lifting. I have a Denon 5900 and finally "demoted" it to 480i through component because of the macroblocking. It is now going into an iScan HD+ and I'm macroblocking free on my HLN507. I may replace the 5900 or have it SDI modded in order to preserve the digital path when I upgrade to the HLR5078.

I thought I read some where when I was at CES that the 1080P sammy's were using an ATI chip? I think it was this: http://www.ati.com/products/xilleon220/index.html

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong..

**EDIT** Just found this press release from a while back: http://apps.ati.com/ir/PressReleaseText.asp?compid=105421&releaseID=690881

Thanks. I just called comcast and they said the DVI port should work. They asked me to get a replacement. I might get 6412 as it is only $5 more.

Get the 6412! Trust me on this one.

After playing with my set a little bit more this morning I took the suggestion of a previous post for maximizing the screen size on the PC input for 1:1 pixel mapping. The end result is a bit of overscan but man did things sharpen up a lot! I was impressed with text quality before maximizing the screen size, but now I am pretty much blown away... Here is a picture:

www.voidyourwarranty.net/text.jpg

The picture doesn't do the quality any justice, but trust me text is VERY readable from my viewing distance (around 9 - 10')... You can also get a sense for the overscan... I would think that with some custom resolutions we can keep the overscan down to a minimum while hopefully keeping the 1:1 pixel mapping..

On a related note. UCSB said it does 10 bits over HDMI. I'm not sure thats entirely correct, I think it may be 11 bits based on the spec. But thats not really my point here. Something you mentioned above got me thinking. I've been using my Panny S97 over DVI into my HLM507. I was not aware that there was an 8 bit limit on DVI. That may explain why I sometimes see banding insted of nice gradients in some areas of color. So when I get a new TV with a HDMI input then I should be able to benefit from the S97's full 10 (or 11) bits and get a much smoother picture (less banding) shouldn't I?

DVI is an 8 bit interface, HDMI should be smoother will less banding as
long as the TV also accepts 10 bits which I believe the new 1080p DLPs
do. I believe HDMI can also do 12 bit ( and is backward compatible with
DVI so can also do 8 bit ).

Did you notice any sync issues between the video and audio? What audio format did your avr output?No sync issues at all with my current setup of the DVD-HD950. Perfectly matched, although skimming through one film is hardly enough of a test. I'll try a lot more this weekend. During LOTR ROTK, the AVR pumped out 5.1 DD or DTS just like I expected it should.

Have you tried: DVD-HD950 ---(HDMI)--> 5078 ---(toslink)--> Denon 1803 AVR ? If not, could you try that setup?I didn't have time to try that yet ... I will check it out tonight and report back.

Did you also consider the Onkyo 1000 (MSRP $2K) when you were considering the Pioneer Elite 59avi? Based on what I've read in the DVD players forum, the Onkyo 1000 is apparently an excellent (but expensive) upconvert HDMI player.

Yes, I did - thanks. Audio on the Onkyo 1000 is alledgedly much better
but the PQ is about the same and the street price of the 59avi is half the
price of the Onkyo.

So, since I only pass the DD and DTS bit stream to my receiver and
let my Denon AVR-4802 handle the audio, I kept the extra $800
in my pocket...

I still have the 3910 ( if I decide to keep it ) which is an excellent
SACD and DVD-A player...

If our cat were to damage our new screen I think cat stew would be on the menu.LOL :D ... mmmm ... cat stew ...

If I primarily watched movies on the thing, I'd think that 50" at 9-11' just wouldn't be big enough. But for mixed viewing, my wife and I think it's absolutely perfect. I'm not sure I want to see Keith Olberman or Dave Chappelle bigger than my refrigerator anyway ... ;) and movies still look spectacular at this size, especially in a modestly sized room. I think you'd love it.

No, it uses a Zoran chip so no MB. There is a current thread or two about this over in the DVD players forum.

Is the Zoran chip in the Samsung DVD player or TV? Or both? I was referring to the TV.

Denon doesn't output 480i over HDMI and the 480p looked noticably worse than
the 1080i. Your solution should greatly reduce the MB but the
iSCAN HD+ runs close to a grand doesn't it? you are also doing
a d/a over component and then another a/d at the iScan HD+.

You're correct. I just found it better to watch the picture without the MB despite the additional D/A and A/D conversions. I haven't jumped into SDI yet because I'll be interested in the Marantz 9600 coming out. I'm just wondering if the HLR's A/D through component and subsequent processing provide a good picture while eliminating the MB from the Faroudja-based DVD players for those who do not have an external video processor.

I thought I read some where when I was at CES that the 1080P sammy's were using an ATI chip? I think it was this: http://www.ati.com/products/xilleon220/index.html

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong..

**EDIT** Just found this press release from a while back: http://apps.ati.com/ir/PressRelease...eleaseID=690881

Thanks.

On a related note. UCSB said it does 10 bits over HDMI. I'm not sure thats entirely correct, I think it may be 11 bits based on the spec. But thats not really my point here. Something you mentioned above got me thinking. I've been using my Panny S97 over DVI into my HLM507. I was not aware that there was an 8 bit limit on DVI. That may explain why I sometimes see banding insted of nice gradients in some areas of color. So when I get a new TV with a HDMI input then I should be able to benefit from the S97's full 10 (or 11) bits and get a much smoother picture (less banding) shouldn't I?

Yes, banding is improved (eliminated) going from 8 to 10 (11?) bits.

Definitely notice substantially more on this DVD - especially the dark
scenes. Even scenes with a great deal of monochrome red show
quite a bit.

I guess I will be upgrading my DVD player - I really hate to give up the
overall PQ of the Denon 3910 but I hear the Pioneer Elite 59avi is
suppose to be close with no MB...

Tony,

Congrats on the new set.

Have you tried sending the TV a 480i signal and let the Sammy do the scaling and deinterlacing? Be interesting to see how well the set handles it.

Also posted on the TVA Powerbuy thread:


Received my 5078 on Wednesday morning. Unfortunatley I think it fell off the Donkey on the way here!

The bezel is all smashed on the left side near the "Anynet" logo.

Luckily TVA is being top notch to resolve the issue.

Besides that the TV looks incredible. I have a an older proscan DVD player ( connected via composite ) that is doing a great job. No hints of any lip sync issues yet.

I also spent a large amount of time playing with my Xbox. So far I have tried "KOTOR 2", "Doom", "Conker" and Forza without any noticable lag or issues.

On the DVD front I tried portions of "Star Wars", "Family Guy", "Gladiator" and "Buffy: Season 6".

The only thing that is bugging me is the way the TV is handling formats. If my DVD player is outputing 4:3 content I have to use the menu to switch to get bars on the sides, and then use the menu to get back to 16:9 when watching a movie. Is there any way to setup the TV to automatically switch formats, or maybe a remote quick combo that will let me switch?

I have an SFA 8300 DVR connected to my 6168 through HDMI and my surround processor connected to the 8300 via optical. The TV confirms that it is receiving 1080i. If I have both the TV audio and the surround system on at the same time there is an echo.

I don't suppose you have a firewire cable to check the output from the 8300 to the 6168 do you? Just curious if that works and/or what the advantages/disadvantages might be......

I received my 6168 yesterday. I had a chance to set it up and watch TV for around 5 hrs. My observations....

Ran it through DVE. This is what I came up with: warm 1; contrast 28, brightness 40; sharpness 0; color 57. All the other edge enhancements are off.

My two SD Tivos are connected via SVideo. The picture is good. Better than my Toshiba CRT (professionally calibrated). I expected much worst. No digital artifacts like noisy edges or blocking. No lip sync issues either. There seemed to be a small 1/2" horizontal band at the top of the screen that seems to exhibit noise or slight snow. It isn't really all that noticeable unless you make it a point to look up towards the top. I haven't tried the other SVideo input (I will tonight). The other inputs did not contain the same horizontal band.

DVD Sammy 950 connected via HDMI. The picture is really nice. Not as good as HD Tivo or HD Cable @ 1080i, but very good. No artifact issues, blacks are great. Slight lip sync issue. Not bad though. The picture might be better than what I observed. I only scanned through the I Robot DVD briefly.

HD Cable (Moxi) connected direct via component. I tried all the different scaling options (480p, 720p, 1080i), I settled on the 1080i. The picture was noticeably better at 1080i. It added a bit more edge noise, but otherwise, the picture is stunning. I watched part of that INXS Rock Star show (one of the worst shows I've ever seen...zero talent). I felt this would be a pretty good show to watch and allow the 6168 show what it could do since most of the program is shot on stage. Lots of colored lights, back lighting, chrome, close ups The picture was unbelievable. You could see individual hairs on the performers with no noise or edge artifacts. Lots of fast moving camera work. No issues with compression etc. A flawless picture. The only draw back was there was a bit of a lip sync issue. It seemed at one point, it was really bad, but it was right after I toggled from 480p to 1080i. Once I FF'd through the commercial, it was gone. I think by pausing, FF, REW, or some other picture modification might have corrected the problem.

HDTivo connected direct via HDMI. Once again, incredible picture. 1080i seems to be the best scaling option here as well. I watched part of an ESPNHD baseball game. Crystal clear. No issues at all. Discovery HD looked incredible as well. As others have reported, the lip sync issue makes it unwatchable. At least a 1/4 second behind the audio. (Seems to be a Directv issue with this channel.) I watched a couple of HD movie channels. Great picture as well. Slight lip sync issue with all channels to be honest. None (other than Discovery HD) is all that bad. Still irritating none the less.

For the lip sync issue, I have already ordered the Felston DD540. I will connect the HD Cable and HDTivo to it. My current pre/pro (Outlaw 950) only offers audio compensation based on the distance you sit from all five speakers. Counterproductive in this case. The Felston will correct the lip sync issues, and IMO, a great investment if you want to get the most out of this TV and the overall HT experience.

Once I put a couple of hundred hours on it, I will have an ISF tech calibrate it. Should improve colors and blacks (right now, colors and blacks are the best I've seen on any DLP set).

I would say my highlights are:
Great HD picture
Once calibrated, the colors are unreal
3D is a reality (my neighbor's first comment..."it looks 3D!!)
Easy picture set up for basic functions

Lowlights:
Lip sync issue (corrected by the Felston)
With no video switching, toggling through the inputs, switching the audio, and entering the source is a bit of a hassle even with everything programmed into a HTM MX500 remote. Since the TV uses a toggle feature to switch inputs, I'm unable to develop a macro to do all three since I have four components feeding directly to the TV. I can only switch the audio and source. The video input toggle, I have to switch manually.

Added:
Audio is connected directly to my pre/pro. Nothing through the TV.

Byrnebv,

Could you edit in how you have your audio connected?

Jon

Besides that the TV looks incredible. I have a an older proscan DVD player ( connected via composite ) that is doing a great job. No hints of any lip sync issues yet.
Are you really using a composite connection? Could it be component?

The only thing that is bugging me is the way the TV is handling formats. If my DVD player is outputing 4:3 content I have to use the menu to switch to get bars on the sides, and then use the menu to get back to 16:9 when watching a movie. Is there any way to setup the TV to automatically switch formats, or maybe a remote quick combo that will let me switch?
I don't know how old your DVD player is but does it have a switch or menu option to tell it that your TV screen is now 16x9 and not 4x3? That might be part of the problem.

Can some one who tried 1920x1080@60Hz over VGA help me? As soon as I set that up in my PC, the TV reports it as 'Mode not supported'??

Are you really using a composite connection? Could it be component?
My bad, it is composite.

I don't know how old your DVD player is but does it have a switch or menu option to tell it that your TV screen is now 16x9 and not 4x3? That might be part of the problem.
It is an older Sony unit. The player is setup to output 16:9, but is still sending a 4:3 signal for 4:3 content. What I want is for the Sammy to switch formats automagically.

Can some one who tried 1920x1080@60Hz over VGA help me? As soon as I set that up in my PC, the TV reports it as 'Mode not supported'??

The TV is a little picky about the timings. My "high quality" VGA cable does not pass the informational data from the TV to my PC, so I originally got the same message you are getting. I hooked up a "low quality" PC VGA cable which does allow the PC to query information from the TV, and then it worked perfectly.

I use Linux, so with the "low quality" cable in place, I was able to look at the logs from the X driver, and figure out what timings the TV wanted to see. I then formulated a modeline based on those timings, and re-hooked up my "high quality" cable. Works beautifully!

You might try using a different VGA cable, to see if that help you. If you are using Linux, I could send you the modeline. If not, maybe someone using the same operating system can help you.

John

I also mentioned quite a bit about the blacks yesterday - but
check out the whites - they are really white!

The only "flaw" I have noticed with this TV, is some sparkles when a large, bright, white area is projected onto the screen.

Now that I have my TV calibrated, the sparkles are not near as noticeable, but they are there if I look for them.

John

It is an older Sony unit. The player is setup to output 16:9, but is still sending a 4:3 signal for 4:3 content. What I want is for the Sammy to switch formats automagically.
My HLP5063 getting a 480i "component" input from an older Sony non-progressive DVD player is set to Wide mode. When a movie is 4x3 (1.33:1) I see the correct black bars on each side of the 4x3 image. When a movie is between 1.77:1 and 1.85:1 I don't see any black bars. If the movie is wider than 1.85:1 I see black bars top and bottom. I don't have to change anything on the TV to get these results.

Maybe the fact that you are using "composite" and not "component" input has something to do with it.

The TV is a little picky about the timings. My "high quality" VGA cable does not pass the informational data from the TV to my PC, so I originally got the same message you are getting. I hooked up a "low quality" PC VGA cable which does allow the PC to query information from the TV, and then it worked perfectly.

I use Linux, so with the "low quality" cable in place, I was able to look at the logs from the X driver, and figure out what timings the TV wanted to see. I then formulated a modeline based on those timings, and re-hooked up my "high quality" cable. Works beautifully!

You might try using a different VGA cable, to see if that help you. If you are using Linux, I could send you the modeline. If not, maybe someone using the same operating system can help you.

John

Thanks for the reply. Mine is WIN XP. I got the VGA cable for $15, so I guess it is not a "high quality"! Anyone has any ideas?

Tony,

Congrats on the new set.

Have you tried sending the TV a 480i signal and let the Sammy do the scaling and deinterlacing? Be interesting to see how well the set handles it.

My DVD player, like many DVD players, does not let me send 480i over HDMI.

The only "flaw" I have noticed with this TV, is some sparkles when a large, bright, white area is projected onto the screen.

Now that I have my TV calibrated, the sparkles are not near as noticeable, but they are there if I look for them.

John

I haven't seen any sparkles yet, but I guess I will start looking for them.

How did you calibrate your TV, via DVE, ISF Calibrator?

What settings did you end up with?

I read through all the pages up to page 24 of this thread and gave up looking after a couple hours trying to see if anyone had posted an experience like mine with their new 6168. So I apologize if this was metioned from page 25 to up to this post hehe.

I connected my new motorola 6412 dual tuner STB with HDMI out to my 6168, via some medium quality monster component cables to the component 1 inputs, as well as a new high end HDMI-HDMI cable to HDMI input1. Viewing standard def channels there isnt any difference I could detect, however, completely contrary to what I thought, the HD channels looked slightly better over component than HDMI?? I used the pause capabilty of the STB on HD channels on close ups of faces and stuff and then hit the input button and switched back and forth between component and HDMI. The STB was set up to send 1080I, and 480p for standard. Both pictures looked great, but the component was slightly clearer and brighter. I didn't calibrate the tv in anyway, this is straight out of the box. Could it be the HDMI wasnt implemented well in the new moto STB? Or perhaps something else? Any advice / input would be greatly appreciated. That new 3ft HDMI-HDMI cable cost me 100 bucks hehe.

Thanks for the reply. Mine is WIN XP. I got the VGA cable for $15, so I guess it is not a "high quality"! Anyone has any ideas?

VGA is a cable where quality means a great deal but this doesn't necessary
correlate with price. I had a $15 cable from Fry's which I compared
with a DVI cable on a 37 in. 720p Sharp LCD. The differecne was night
and day with DVI looking much better. I bought a cable from BetterCables.com
and the PQ looked comparable to DVI - even better in many ways, i.e.
Richer colors, etc.

The VGA cable definitely makes a difference.

Here is my setup. The pic is the EC I built-in to accept this TV. Fits like a glove with good airflow.

How its hooked up (remember, my HDMI card is shot and hopefully will be replaced tomorrow or Monday).

E* DVR 942 via component and optical direct to HK AVR
DVD HD-950 via component (forgot to switch and got the red screen of death). Optical when I can pick up another cable in my free times to AVR. :rolleyes:
PS2 Via component (no chance to play yet, but will this evening).

Lip Sync: I have seen it and my HK has a delay feature, but not long enough of one. Looks a new AVR for me.

Picture: With Component it is drop dead gorgeous. Can't wait to get HDMI up and running. Will start with DVE this evening if time else this weekend. SD via E* is good. I can definitely handle the picture. Beats any other Projection screen I have seen. It puts the 50" plasma we have at work to shame...the source is split cable though.

THe attachment is American Chopper off HDNET. Awesome detail. I am blown away! :D :D :D :D

The only "flaw" I have noticed with this TV, is some sparkles when a large, bright, white area is projected onto the screen.

Now that I have my TV calibrated, the sparkles are not near as noticeable, but they are there if I look for them.

John

John ... if the sparkles are on a source that you have connected via HDMI, they might indicate that you are using an HDMI cable that is too cheap.

John ... if the sparkles are on an source that you have connected via HDMI, they might indicate that you are using an HDMI cable that is too cheap.

That is the first thing I thought too but he describes it only on large white
areas. The "sparkles" from a too long length of HDMI typically cover the
entire screen and are not content dependent...

John ... if the sparkles are on a source that you have connected via HDMI, they might indicate that you are using an HDMI cable that is too cheap.

I am using a BetterCables VGA cable from my Linux PC / nVidia 5700LE.

I noticed the sparkles watching the first couple of episodes of Empire. I have not really noticed them lately, and I assumed that was because I have since calibrated the set. Maybe it was from the source, however.

Thanks,

John

Let this be the last post on this subthread as we have gone on way too long in this thread. ISP is etheric.net. Anything more take to PM.

Even if I was a clueless idiot, telling people that they would be laughed off a forum is totally the wrong way to treat people. I am here to exchange info and learn from others. I would fail miserably in this endeavor if I mistreated others.

Hey, just name your provider that is giving you 32Mbps symmetrical connection to your house. If your not willing to do that than I am not buying your claim. It's not troll bait for a fight, I am calling you out on your claim and you just refuse to back it up with some facts...

I haven't seen any sparkles yet, but I guess I will start looking for them.

How did you calibrate your TV, via DVE, ISF Calibrator?

What settings did you end up with?

I used the AVIA DVD played on my HTPC to set the white and black levels. With the VGA input, the TV does not let me adjust the saturation/hue completely, so I adjusted those in the Xv driver, in MythTV.

For the white/black levels, I did not have to do much. The "movie" mode of the TV is almost dead on.

Saturation/hue did require a little bit of adjustment, but since I had to do it in the video driver on the PC instead of on the TV, I don't think my values would be relevant to you.

John

How can a audio delay device external to the TV help if the delay is not consistent. If you fix the delay and then the TV delay changes, wouldn't the delay continue at the setting manually set on the external device. If the TV stop delaying the external device would now be the cause of the delay. You can only get a good sync between tv and remote sound sourse by feeding the receiver with audio from the TV. This apparently cannot be done.
If the following path worked (and it doesn't, on ANY TV I've heard of)...

Video Source (DVD, cable) ----> HDMI ----> TV ----> optical ----> Receiver

And the source was putting out 5.1 audio along with the digital picture, then the TV would snag the video and start decompressing, but pass the compress audio along to the receiver for decompression.

This gets you the same delay (even fractionally more) than if it was wired like this...

Video Source ----> HDMI ----> TV
(DVD, Cable) ----> optical ----> Receiver

Either way, with digital content there will be a difference between the time it takes the TV to decompress the video and the time it takes the Receiver to decompress the audio.

The only way to provide perfect sync for all digital sources is for an extra cable to go between the TV and Receiver with some sort of timing information that would let the Receiver auto-adjust its delay to match the longer processing delays of the video decompression.

Nobody is making such a connection. It would have to be a standard before it would be all that useful. Heck, just look at the interconnects we have now. Each brand has it's own flavor (ANYnet on Samsung).

Use the TV's internal speakers, and the TV will delay the audio to match. But passthough audio stays digital and compressed, so it wouldn't get around the lipsync issue.

I suppose a TV could decompress the audio too, and pipe it out 5.1 jacks (all 6 of them) to your receiver in analog, but that would take away a little quality for a very small gain in sync.

Adjust your receiver's delay. If yours doesn't have that function, you can get a receiver that can do this that fairy cheap. (Expensive receiver should have it, for sure.)

FLApilot

Wow! :eek: Are you saying you did that Wall System yourself? Damn looks like you've got a second career come retirement or on the side. Terrific layout and Quality Look! Bravo - Hope that PQ matches all your hard work! :D

Nonsanity: as I understand it, over the air signals are decoded and sent 2.0 or 5.1 over the optical output.

With all of the processing that goes on in these sets, it SHOULD NOT be that difficult to lock the audio with the video, frame to frame.

Just because they HAVEN'T doesn't mean that they CAN'T.

I used the AVIA DVD played on my HTPC to set the white and black levels. With the VGA input, the TV does not let me adjust the saturation/hue completely, so I adjusted those in the Xv driver, in MythTV.

For the white/black levels, I did not have to do much. The "movie" mode of the TV is almost dead on.

Saturation/hue did require a little bit of adjustment, but since I had to do it in the video driver on the PC instead of on the TV, I don't think my values would be relevant to you.

John

I agree thanks. Also I noticed how great the blacks and whites look in movie
mode albeit the picture is a bit dim.

FLApilot

Wow! :eek: Are you saying you did that Wall System yourself? Damn looks like you've got a second career come retirement or on the side. Terrific layout and Quality Look! Bravo - Hope that PQ matches all your hard work! :D

Westa6969,

I joined this forum in Oct looking for a new TV setup and started the woodworking in late Jan. I finished it last month (finally) and did the install myself. A labor of love justifying the HD setup. Both look awesome.

Now, my wife just five minutes ago conceded the fact that we have to get a new AVR to better adjust for lip sync. Discovery HD is pretty bad as others have said.

TonyDeluce, I think you said American Chopper was fine on Discovery HD. I DVR'd one last night and the sync is way off. I am going to have to unpause my HD watching and cruis to some other channels also and check them. Hard to pull away the TV is just unimaginable.

Thanks for all the research and inputs. Off to PS2 for that report.

jpoet and tonydeluce,

Avia's black level pattern is based on the floating black level of a CRT.

It would be better to use DVE for setting brightness.

Westa6969,

I joined this forum in Oct looking for a new TV setup and started the woodworking in late Jan. I finished it last month (finally) and did the install myself. A labor of love justifying the HD setup. Both look awesome.

Now, my wife just five minutes ago conceded the fact that we have to get a new AVR to better adjust for lip sync. Discovery HD is pretty bad as others have said.

TonyDeluce, I think you said American Chopper was fine on Discovery HD. I DVR'd one last night and the sync is way off. I am going to have to unpause my HD watching and cruis to some other channels also and check them. Hard to pull away the TV is just unimaginable.

Thanks for all the research and inputs. Off to PS2 for that report.

Discovery HD is having a major problem - I would not base any decisions on the
current lip sync problem you are seeing there.

jpoet and tonydeluce,

Avia's black level pattern is based on the floating black level of a CRT.

It would be better to use DVE for setting brightness.

I agree - I have DVE and as soon as I can pull myself away from
the "out of the box" PQ, I plan on using it...

Anyone having problems getting all the hd channels? I have the 6168, sa8300, tv set on auto, and I cannot pick up nbc,fox, and tnt. I am using hdmi from cable box to tv.

The only "flaw" I have noticed with this TV, is some sparkles when a large, bright, white area is projected onto the screen.

Now that I have my TV calibrated, the sparkles are not near as noticeable, but they are there if I look for them.


I think I know what you mean -- it's as if white areas have been dusted with sand or granulated sugar. My impression is that this is due to the screen and the way light is dispersed when shining through it. I agree that it's not a major thing, though.

DocTossAnyone having problems getting all the hd channels? I have the 6168, sa8300, tv set on auto, and I cannot pick up nbc,fox, and tnt. I am using hdmi from cable box to tv.

If your STB is HD Digital Cable like ours in our Comcast Region ours are in a separate area Channels 203 - 240 or so and the Premium HD is available in two places one below each premium and then repeated in the 200 range listed above - I spend alot of time in that 200 range now watching things that have adefinite WoW factor everyday - wait til you see Jay Leno - the colors and brightness are amazing on my Sharp so I can't wait to see it blown up to a 67".

My box had to be setup by Comcast for the HD perhaps your region is different.

:D

Can some one who tried 1920x1080@60Hz over VGA help me? As soon as I set that up in my PC, the TV reports it as 'Mode not supported'??

I don't use Windows either but have you tried following the instructions in the manual about making sure the video card timing meets what the TV requires? There's a table that specifies the desired vertical refresh and horizonal sync rates for each mode. You may want to run something like PowerStrip if you are having trouble making your video card drive the TV at the proper rates:

http://www.entechtaiwan.net/util/ps.shtm

I'm sure someone in the HTPC forums on this site will be able to help you.

DocToss

If your STB is HD Digital Cable like ours in our Comcast Region ours are in a separate area Channels 203 - 240 or so and the Premium HD is available in two places one below each premium and then repeated in the 200 range listed above.

My box had to be setup by Comcast for the HD perhaps your region is different.

:D


The hd channels are in the 800 areas. I can get 6 of them but the 3 I mentioned don't come through. I don't know if they are broadcast differently (shouldn't auto setting pick it up though?), or what. I don't believe I could get them when I used composite either. I guess I will have to call tw.

Nice, but can we time our screenshots such that they show the Yankees winning, please? ;)

I'd rather see the pics now rather than wait till next year. )

But an a/v receiver with delay adjustment isn't going to help much if the synch off in the source broadcase though.

It seems to me that an audio delay feature will help in this situation. The downside is that accessing the audio delay feature frequently to adjust improperly broadcast content can be a pain in the a**. On some receivers it is buried deep in the setup menus. If audio delay is constant because of video processing one can set it once and forget it, but if it varies because of poor broadcasting then easy access on an AVR is important. Some AVRs allow audio delay to be set by input, others only have a global setting. Obviously those that can be set individually by input are to be preferred.

I just want to thank everyone in this thread who has provided valuable feedback. Very informative. While I won't receive my set for probably about two weeks, I plan to do the same.

There are still some lingering questions out there and I do have the ability to provide some input and take plenty of pictures. :)

Cable Box(es): 2 Scientific Atlanta 8300HD DVR boxes w/ Cablevision
DVD Player: Samsung HD950
Game Systems: XBox, PS2, and Gamecube (all with component connections)
Component Audio/Video Switcher: Audio Authority 1154
Receiver: Onkyo 602b w/ Polk Audio Speakers (7.1 surround sound setup)
PC Videocard: BFG Nvidia 7800GTX

All audio connections are via optical cables. Cable Box and DVD Player will use HDMI cables while the Game Systems will be through the component switcher.

I haven't had the chance to check, but does anyone know if the Onkyo 602b has a audio delay feature? Thanks.

Lip synch on Chopper was a little off last night on Discovery HD but there was a program about Plumbind and Electrical in a new house that was waayyy off. It may also depend on which showing you see as these programs are repeated over and over again. But an a/v receiver with delay adjustment isn't going to help much if the synch off in the source broadcase though.

Just watching Discovery HD and it is way off. The other HD channels I get seem to be just fine. A source problem... I agree.

Whats the deal? Do the experts think we have enough testing to determine if there are sync issues? I realize sometimes its the source, but is the tv a problem as well? If we buy an AVR with a delay function does this solve the problem? At this point I think there are many people now waiting for these answers before buying. I think set-ups, comments on picture quality are important, but this lip sync issue needs to be put to rest once and for all. I think many people that have waited to buy are now very concerned. Please bring this issue to the forefront. I already returned one DLP for this reason, and really don`t want to go through that again. Thank you

Ok, more info after watching some more tonight. I definitely get delay with star wars 2. I watched some dialog only scenes and the delay is obviously there when the Panasonic S97 upconverting to 1080i over hdmi. I don't know if component exhibits the problem or not. A test for another day. The S97 has a video delay feature though that lets you set a delay. I set it at 100ms and the lag was gone. Another thing I want to test is letting the tv upconvert and seeing how it looks, but I need to put some hours in watching it over hdmi letting the dvd player upconvert.

Another thing I'm noticing more is banding in dark scenes. I recorded Battlestar Galactica when they aired it in hd on nbc. The background dark scenes have noticable banding and grittiness. But I believe it is the source since I didn't see any banding on star wars 2 dvd. I also recorded the shuttle launch on hdnet, but my stupid hdnet signal started dieing near the launch time and it went over the 5 hour recording time so I missed the actual launch. Up until the end though the picture was really great. Very sharp and bright.

I want to be clear though, not once have I seen delay with live tv or recorded tv from my cable system. I only saw it over hdmi from the dvd player which was corrected by a setting within the player.

HELP!!

I received the 6168 today, spent two hours connecting everything, then...nothing...nothing!

I cannot turn the set on. I've tried a second electrical wire but...the same thing. I push the on button on the set...nothing...I turn on via the remote...nothing!

(help....)

I'm new to digital tvs, but from what i have read here, the issue seems clear enough.

If you are route the audio through an a/v receiver, most likely the receiver is going to process the audio much quicker than the tv can process the video.

If you don't use an a/v receiver, routing both video and sound through the tv, then the tv can sycn both signals and you won't notice an audio delay.

The fix is to buy an audio delay device for your a/v receiver if it doesn't have one, or buy a new receiver that has built in audio delays, preferably per input, not globally. Another solution would have been to have the TV pass the audio to your receiver, but it has pretty much been confirmed that this tv cannot pass 5.1 sound from a dvd player, and neither can any other tv from any other manufacturer.

Most digital tvs should exhibit this problem, maybe some more than others if some tvs can do the video processing faster than others.

Whats the deal? Do the experts think we have enough testing to determine if there are sync issues? I realize sometimes its the source, but is the tv a problem as well? If we buy an AVR with a delay function does this solve the problem? At this point I think there are many people now waiting for these answers before buying. I think set-ups, comments on picture quality are important, but this lip sync issue needs to be put to rest once and for all. I think many people that have waited to buy are now very concerned. Please bring this issue to the forefront. I already returned one DLP for this reason, and really don`t want to go through that again. Thank you

anymore people test out video games that would like to let us know how the lag is

Got my 6168 up and running the other night after waiting all day for an 8 PM delivery. Only issue was there was no remote in the box. Any hidden spot in the packaging where the remote is?

Current setup
SA 3250 HD STB from Comcast cable via DVI - HDMI2
Samsung 950 DVD via HDMI - HDMI1

I'm new to HD and DLP. To re-iterate everyone else, the 1080i HD channels are unbelievable. SD was better when I set the STB to upconvert to either 480p or 1080i. Watched Spiderman2 on the 950 and was very impressed - no issues. The next step is to test the SA 8000 DVR via component (and Xbox also). It pains me do go down in connection quality despite the PVR advantages. Overall, I have seen no rainbows, great colors and crispness, and very little artifacts. Baseball on HDNet has blown me away - I can't wait for football season.

I'm 9' from the screen and the image seems smoother at 10-11' vs. 8'. It seems like when there are minor artifacts or PQ imperfections, they are less noticeable at 11' vs. 8-9'. This may be helpful for someone with sharp eyes who is considering a close viewing distance.

Whats the deal? Do the experts think we have enough testing to determine if there are sync issues? I realize sometimes its the source, but is the tv a problem as well? If we buy an AVR with a delay function does this solve the problem? At this point I think there are many people now waiting for these answers before buying. I think set-ups, comments on picture quality are important, but this lip sync issue needs to be put to rest once and for all. I think many people that have waited to buy are now very concerned. Please bring this issue to the forefront. I already returned one DLP for this reason, and really don`t want to go through that again. Thank you

I don't believe there is any lip sync issues from the Samsung set so you
won't even need an AVR with delay. A couple of the Voom channels from
time to time seem to be off and Discovery HD is way off but this is not a problem
with the Samsung set as far as I can tell.

I have not tested game lag since I have not been a gamer but might start when
xbox360 comes outs.

Got my 6168 up and running the other night after waiting all day for an 8 PM delivery. Only issue was there was no remote in the box. Any hidden spot in the packaging where the remote is?

Current setup
SA 3250 HD STB from Comcast cable via DVI - HDMI2
Samsung 950 DVD via HDMI - HDMI1

I'm new to HD and DLP. To re-iterate everyone else, the 1080i HD channels are unbelievable. SD was better when I set the STB to upconvert to either 480p or 1080i. Watched Spiderman2 on the 950 and was very impressed - no issues. The next step is to test the SA 8000 DVR via component (and Xbox also). It pains me do go down in connection quality despite the PVR advantages. Overall, I have seen no rainbows, great colors and crispness, and very little artifacts. Baseball on HDNet has blown me away - I can't wait for football season.

I'm 9' from the screen and the image seems smoother at 10-11' vs. 8'. It seems like when there are minor artifacts or PQ imperfections, they are less noticeable at 11' vs. 8-9'. This may be helpful for someone with sharp eyes who is considering a close viewing distance.

The remote is in the bag with the manual, etc.

If you are route the audio through an a/v receiver, most likely the receiver is going to process the audio much quicker than the tv can process the video.

If you don't use an a/v receiver, routing both video and sound through the tv, then the tv can sycn both signals and you won't notice an audio delay.

The fix is to buy an audio delay device for your a/v receiver if it doesn't have one, or buy a new receiver that has built in audio delays, preferably per input, not globally. Another solution would have been to have the TV pass the audio to your receiver, but it has pretty much been confirmed that this tv cannot pass 5.1 sound from a dvd player, and neither can any other tv from any other manufacturer.

Most digital tvs should exhibit this problem, maybe some more than others if some tvs can do the video processing faster than others.

This is a well-stated summary of the situation, IMO.

Whats the deal? Do the experts think we have enough testing to determine if there are sync issues? I realize sometimes its the source, but is the tv a problem as well? If we buy an AVR with a delay function does this solve the problem? At this point I think there are many people now waiting for these answers before buying. I think set-ups, comments on picture quality are important, but this lip sync issue needs to be put to rest once and for all. I think many people that have waited to buy are now very concerned. Please bring this issue to the forefront. I already returned one DLP for this reason, and really don`t want to go through that again. Thank you

The following comments on sync cover the situation where an external receiver is being used. The TV will sync audio and video on it's own internal speakers just fine.

I haven't received my set yet ... but, sync is definitely an issue that can be resolved for all users --- except some gamers. My take on what is happening: the sets probably require a small amount of time (possibly in the 40 to 120 ms range) to process the video. I think most people require about 100 ms to process and preceive an event if they are concentrating. All things being equal, most people are not going to see a sync problem or they are going to have to really focus.

But, all things are not equal. Each source piece of equipment can introduce it's own audio-video sync issue and so can each broadcaster. So these could either cancel out or compound the TV's processing delay. Sometimes they will add to the gap being produced by the TV and this will then make the sync problem more noticable.

The problem can be solved at several points in the process. First, people can just not focus on sync and everything will probably look OK. The second opportunity for a fix is just to not purchase components that will introduce a noticable delay. The third opportunity for a fix is at the source. Many DVD players, for example, contain an audio delay feature. This allows you to just delay audio, say 100 ms. The fourth opportunity for a fix is an external audio sync component. The fifth opportunity is adjusting audio delay on a receiver.

Some bad broadcasts will just be out of sync. If this happens often enough, just change service providers. I haven't noticed very many problems with my Comcast service, for example.

I have absolutely zero doubt that audio - video sync issues can be reasonably managed.

Now for gamers ... since the concept of an audio delay does not make sense in the gaming world, lag is a real problem. For many games and gamers, a small amount of lag will not be perceived or affect game play. But, as timing becomes more important, the small amount of video processing can start to become an issue. This is especially true if the game is creating it's own audio - video sync gap that is being added to the TV's. This is why some games and gaming systems play better than others. I am personally, not sure if some game images require more time to process in the TV. But, if they do this could compound the problem. Certainly, some inputs and resolutions will be better on these TV's.

Maybe with time we will be able to understand what the video processing delay's are for each input, input resolution, and type of image. But, until then some of us will have no sync problems. Others will have minor problems ... and for a very small portion of users and situations sync will probably be a problem.

I don't believe there is any lip sync issues from the Samsung set so you
won't even need an AVR with delay. A couple of the Voom channels from
time to time seem to be off and Discovery HD is way off but this is not a problem
with the Samsung set as far as I can tell.

I have not tested game lag since I have not been a gamer but might start when
xbox360 comes outs.

You are joking right!!???? This thread use to be a useful forum until the Samsung lovefest. It's pretty strange that now everything is a "source" problem. High end DVD players are the problem with MB...no.. errr..it's the algorithms..no...eerrr...it's the sources producing all lip sync....no..errr...it's HDMI that does not support DD5.1....no..errr...we all need new receivers to work with these "high end" televisions..no..err...it's the xbox wireless controls producing lag...no....errr...it's the sensitivity of the game controllers....no...errr...hell why don't we ask all "sources" to slow down so Sammy can keep up..

I do find it very interesting that the only consistent DVD player that plays well on these TVs is a Sammy....Run sammy run....

HELP!!

I received the 6168 today, spent two hours connecting everything, then...nothing...nothing!

I cannot turn the set on. I've tried a second electrical wire but...the same thing. I push the on button on the set...nothing...I turn on via the remote...nothing!

(help....)

Get a lamp and test your outlet.

You are joking right!!???? This thread use to be a useful forum until the Samsung lovefest. It's pretty strange that now everything is a "source" problem. High end DVD players are the problem with MB...no.. errr..it's the algorithms..no...eerrr...it's the sources producing all lip sync....no..errr...it's HDMI that does not support DD5.1....no..errr...we all need new receivers to work with these "high end" televisions..no..err...it's the xbox wireless controls producing lag...no....errr...it's the sensitivity of the game controllers....no...errr...hell why don't we ask all "sources" to slow down so Sammy can keep up..

I do find it very interesting that the only consistent DVD player that plays well on these TVs is a Sammy....Run sammy run....

I don't observe any lip sync - I have reported the issues I have observed with
my Denon 3910 in regards to MB - and yes, I am really falling in love with the PQ
of my 6168 - sorry! The PQ is amazing especially on Discovery HD, HD NET, and
Equator - the increase in detail is extraordinary - and when you combine this
with blacks that look black and great CR, the colors really pop! DVD scenes
that don't MB are also outstanding - better than most of the channels claiming
to broadcast HD. Most of the HD channels only slightly better than what I saw
on my JVC - and yes, this appears to be a broadcast issue otherwise Discovery HD,
Equator, and HD Net would not look so spectacular on this set.

There's also Game mode (page 108 of the manual) which seems to help *some* (not all) people (also restricted to component/S-video/composite and 480i).

You are joking right!!???? This thread use to be a useful forum until the Samsung lovefest. It's pretty strange that now everything is a "source" problem. High end DVD players are the problem with MB...no.. errr..it's the algorithms..no...eerrr...it's the sources producing all lip sync....no..errr...it's HDMI that does not support DD5.1....no..errr...we all need new receivers to work with these "high end" televisions..no..err...it's the xbox wireless controls producing lag...no....errr...it's the sensitivity of the game controllers....no...errr...hell why don't we ask all "sources" to slow down so Sammy can keep up..

I do find it very interesting that the only consistent DVD player that plays well on these TVs is a Sammy....Run sammy run....

AUPigskin ... perhaps you should slow down and process your source information a little more carefully. :) Sorry, it just seems like you were brewing up a bunch of issues and problems out of context. You are irrationally overreacting to straight forward discussions about performance. You seem to be missing the main point ... these sets are the best performing RPTV's currently available. I, for one, can discuss these issues and not feel bad about the TV. I look forward to getting my set.

In terms of the Samsung DVD-HD950, my comments on the 950, Denon 3910, and Panasonic S97 were meant to help people understand what would work best with these sets. My comments about macroblocking are not unique to the Samsung sets, but have been demonstrated on other HDTV's as well and were an issue even before the Samsung's were released.

Folks, I'm a littled puzzled by the comment that there is no lip sync with the internal speakers.

If the audio to the internal speakers has been decoded and formatted so that there is no lip sync, why is it so difficult to transmit the properly delayed audio out to the optical port?

This doesn't make very much sense.

Get a lamp and test your outlet.

UCSB,

The outlet has connected to it a Belkin battery-backup device that works. I've plugged the tv into it in case of power failures...I wanted the fan to complete its cycle before I shut it off.

However, the set just does not turn on. I've used the tv button as well as the remote...nothing.

You are joking right!!???? This thread use to be a useful forum until the Samsung lovefest. It's pretty strange that now everything is a "source" problem. High end DVD players are the problem with MB...no.. errr..it's the algorithms..no...eerrr...it's the sources producing all lip sync....no..errr...it's HDMI that does not support DD5.1....no..errr...we all need new receivers to work with these "high end" televisions..no..err...it's the xbox wireless controls producing lag...no....errr...it's the sensitivity of the game controllers....no...errr...hell why don't we ask all "sources" to slow down so Sammy can keep up..

I do find it very interesting that the only consistent DVD player that plays well on these TVs is a Sammy....Run sammy run....


Well, at least you are not overreacting. :rolleyes:

Folks, I'm a littled puzzled by the comment that there is no lip sync with the internal speakers.

If the audio to the internal speakers has been decoded and formatted so that there is no lip sync, why is it so difficult to transmit the properly delayed audio out to the optical port?

This doesn't make very much sense.

All of the discussion about audio - video sync cover directly connecting your source component audio output directly to your receiver, by-passing the TV.

UCSB,

The outlet has connected to it a Belkin battery-backup device that works. I've plugged the tv into it in case of power failures...I wanted the fan to complete its cycle before I shut it off.

However, the set just does not turn on. I've used the tv button as well as the remote...nothing.

I'm sure the Belkin is fine, but plug the TV directly into the outlet as a test. Push the power button and give the TV up to five minutes to start up ... just to be safe, it shouldn't take that long.

Lets talk about color banding and how to limit it. I'm really noticing it on dvds and hd programs with dark color blending. I was watching little nemo and the color variations in the water and around objects where it went to darker colors shows a lot of banding. Could it just be my panasonic S97? Or is it just something I will get used to over time?

I'm sure the Belkin is fine, but plug the TV directly into the outlet as a test. Push the power button and give the TV up to five minutes to start up ... just to be safe, it shouldn't take that long.

UCSB,

I've done as you suggested. The power button was pressed seven minutes ago, and, still, no reaction from the set. The power button does not light up...the set does not go on. This is just terrible!

Lets talk about color banding and how to limit it. I'm really noticing it on dvds and hd programs with dark color blending. I was watching little nemo and the color variations in the water and around objects where it went to darker colors shows a lot of banding. Could it just be my panasonic S97? Or is it just something I will get used to over time?

Mike ... I would recommend you go down and pick-up a Samsung DVD-HD950 (you can return it later) and compare it to the Panasonic. If the problems diminish or disappear, it is probably the Panasonic. OR go down to a better store with a 950 connected to the Samsung with your DVD. Unfortunately, I'm about 99% sure it is being generated by your Panasonic player.

Reducing the TV's banding (I haven't seen any) can be done through ISF calibration. But, should not be required.

UCSB,

I've done as you suggested. The power button was pressed seven minutes ago, and, still, no reaction from the set. The power button does not light up...the set does not go on. This is just terrible!

Call Samsung support.

Call Samsung support.

UCSB,

Thank you...will do.

UCSB,

The outlet has connected to it a Belkin battery-backup device that works. I've plugged the tv into it in case of power failures...I wanted the fan to complete its cycle before I shut it off.

However, the set just does not turn on. I've used the tv button as well as the remote...nothing.

Have you tried connecting the TV directly to an outlet and not the battery backup. Some times if the TV's power draw is too much, the UPS won't be able to provide enough power to turn it on.

Good Luck.

dreamr,

Yes, I've tried what you suggested, but no luck.

UCSB,

Sorry...do we have a Samsung Support phone no.?

1. has anyone tried running component video and optical through the receiver and then component to the tv to see if this cuts down on sync?

2. has anyone using the vga port noticed any sync issues if you run audio to an avr separate?

3. does DVE or AVIA allow one to measure sync?

4. has anyone looked at the service menus or called samsung and asked if the service menus have any settings for sync when usuing an external receiver?

5. SAY SOMEONE RUNS DVD--> HDMI --> TV AND DVD --> OPTICAL OR COAX --> AVR does hooking up the optical out of the tv to a avr (even if you don't use it) help sync.

worth a shot.

i am not worried about sync so much as INCONSISTANT sync esp from the dish 942. if it varies by channel and even by show then a sync adjusting avr or the Felston would have to be reset everytime you change the source or channel.

Hmm, don't you think that AUPigskin sounds a lot like Gazelle?

I thought exactly the same thing and with only three posts by AUPigskin in July and
all of a sudden we get this post while Gazelle is not posting.

But I wasn't completely convinced yet to call him out on it...

I guess JVC must be putting food on Gazelle's plate and he needs to eat
like the rest of us need to eat :-)

But he suggests that this thread is not a discussion but an uncritical love fest for Samsung?

P.S. His first post was three days ago and he goes on talking like an old timer about
how this thread use to be :-) What a joke!
I bet if you snooped both IP addresses they would be the same...

dreamr,

Yes, I've tried what you suggested, but no luck.

UCSB,

Sorry...do we have a Samsung Support phone no.?1-800-samsung go through the menu till you get either customer service or Tech support...they will take good care of you.

I thought exactly the same thing and with only three posts by AUPigskin in July and
all of a sudden we get this post while Gazelle is not posting.

But I wasn't completely convinced yet to call him out on it...

I guess JVC must be putting food on Gazelle's plate and he needs to eat
like the rest of us need to eat :-)

But he suggests that this thread is not a discussion but an uncritical love fest for Samsung?

P.S. His first post was three days ago and he goes on talking like an older about
how this thread use to be :-) What a joke!
I bet if you snooped both IP addresses they would be the same...I and someone else reported him to the mods...I got tired of his child like manner...he was just too annoying...hopefully he's been banned fron AVS...I won't miss him that's for sure.

UCSB,

I've done as you suggested. The power button was pressed seven minutes ago, and, still, no reaction from the set. The power button does not light up...the set does not go on. This is just terrible!
I hope I didn't miss something. Why don't you have your dealer replace the set?

I and someone else reported him to the mods...I got tired of his child like manner...he was just too annoying...hopefully he's been banned fron AVS...I won't miss him that's for sure.

I won't miss him either but there is no stopping him from creating new email
addresses and continuing to annoy us. If he has been banned there may be to
block his IP address but then could always get a new ISP so there really isn't
anyway to be permanently free from his annoyance.

i am not worried about sync so much as INCONSISTANT sync esp from the dish 942. if it varies by channel and even by show then a sync adjusting avr or the Felston would have to be reset everytime you change the source or channel.

I'm worried about the same thing...but just took the plunge and ordered the 6168...I'll be sitting about 12 ft away....I was affraid of it being too big but the way everyone sounds on here it shouldn't be a problem....I was planning on having everything run through my AVR with component wires...will it help with the lip sync...and how much video quality will I be losing...if any?

1-800-samsung go through the menu till you get either customer service or Tech support...they will take good care of you.

Thank you.

I hope I didn't miss something. Why don't you have your dealer replace the set?

The dealer is the power buy via TVA.com. I will contact them tomorrow (I tried calling this p.m. and, after holding on for twenty minutes, gave up).

Come to think of it, wasn't this lip sync issue brought up to Steve P from Samsung... at one of the shows and he stated this would not be a problem with the 2005 models. Boy...I hope they get everything fixed with the 67" before they ship...maybe that's why there delayed again.

The dealer is the power buy via TVA.com. I will contact them tomorrow (I tried calling this p.m. and, after holding on for twenty minutes, gave up).
I understand that they will ship you a replacement set and pick up the defective set. Personally I like that better than a repair on a set during the first 30 days.

Good luck.

I'm worried about the same thing...but just took the plunge and ordered the 6168...I'll be sitting about 12 ft away....I was affraid of it being too big but the way everyone sounds on here it shouldn't be a problem....I was planning on having everything run through my AVR with component wires...will it help with the lip sync...and how much video quality will I be losing...if any?

depends what kind of avr you have and if it can do 1080i over component .

Come to think of it, wasn't this lip sync issue brought up to Steve P from Samsung... at one of the shows and he stated this would not be a problem with the 2005 models. Boy...I hope they get everything fixed with the 67" before they ship...maybe that's why there delayed again.


can we contact steve P ?
i personnally and i imagine others are on the fence because of this sync issue. it would be nice to have a word from the man and hopefully some answers.

can we contact steve P ?
i personnally and i imagine others are on the fence because of this sync issue. it would be nice to have a word from the man and hopefully some answers.One of the forum members (Administrator) had excellent communications with him...he receive a lot of answers to our questions...not saying they all came true...But I haven't seen him around here for awhile...and I have no clue how to contact Steve P.

The TV is a little picky about the timings. My "high quality" VGA cable does not pass the informational data from the TV to my PC, so I originally got the same message you are getting. I hooked up a "low quality" PC VGA cable which does allow the PC to query information from the TV, and then it worked perfectly.

I use Linux, so with the "low quality" cable in place, I was able to look at the logs from the X driver, and figure out what timings the TV wanted to see. I then formulated a modeline based on those timings, and re-hooked up my "high quality" cable. Works beautifully!

You might try using a different VGA cable, to see if that help you. If you are using Linux, I could send you the modeline. If not, maybe someone using the same operating system can help you.

John


Hey, I got it working! :)
I have an ATI 9200. There is an option in the catalyst center called 'Use EDID' (Extended Display Identification Data. This queries the monitor (TV in this case) to check what it can support. After I check this and then set the display resolution to 1920x1080@60Hz, it works. Thanks to all who provided helpful hints. It is 11PM, but I am glad it worked. Comcast DVI-HDMI still sucks. I will be swapping it for a 6412 tomorrow.
Watched Day after tomorrow in HBOHD via component. Boy, HD rules!

Ed, sorry to hear about your bad luck (sounds like something that would happen to me). Just wanted to chime in that I agree with htwaits, I wouldn't even bother with Samsung I'd just go for a TVA replacement. I realize you're probably just giving them a call to see if there's something you missed... Good luck!!

Jim

You are joking right!!???? This thread use to be a useful forum until the Samsung lovefest.

This is an "owner's" thread.

As with many other things, there is a certain insanity that goes with being an owner of one of the first 1080p DLP sets.

This thead was set up July 16th in anticipation of the first Samsung 1080p sets being in their new owners hands. It seemed like forever to some folks, but the first hands on report from an actual owner was July 19th.

It's now July 28th and several new owners have reported their experience as best they can. They are an enthusiastic bunch. Why would that trouble you?

It's pretty strange that now everything is a "source" problem.
Some problems are source related. I think we are very lucky that "everything" isn't s source problem. DirecTV's Discovery Channel is having some serious audio problems right now. It's problems are reported in forums devoted to reception problems that have nothing to do with Samsung or Samsung products. The local reception forum is full of messages from folks who want to know if anyone else is seeing or hearing the same strange stuff that they are.

High end DVD players are the problem with MB...
Some do have MB problems that have been reported in the DVD Player forum long before this thread was started or any Samsung 1080p orders were placed.

no.. errr..it's the algorithms..
All algorithms are not created equal. Those in the current mass market Faroudja chip seem to be having some problems. Again, the reports of these problems originated long before the Samsung 1080p sets came to market. Ask Rogo.

no...eerrr...it's the sources producing all lip sync....
My reading comprehension must not be as keen as yours. I think that I've read repeatedly that lip sync problems can originate in all phases of the chain of events that bring an image and sound to someone's TV.

no..errr...it's HDMI that does not support DD5.1....
From what I've read, it's the Samsung implementation of HDMI that seems to be preventing input devices from passing 5.1 sound through to the digital audio output. Any messages in this thread that maintain anything else are probably in error. I make errors all the time. How about you?

As each new 1080p model hits the market I'm sure it will be investigated to see if it allows 5.1 to be passed from input HDMI to a digital output. Those that do can least apply a delay to the audio signal equal to any image processing delay that was added by the TV. Unfortunately that's not the only source of video delay.

no..errr...we all need new receivers to work with these "high end" televisions..
It's one solution if you are seeing and hearing lip sync problems. With the mixed bag of electronics and source material I would like to have a video delay control on a remote that was as easy to use as the volume control.

no..err...it's the xbox wireless controls producing lag...no....errr...it's the sensitivity of the game controllers....
Beats me. I'm not a gamer. Maybe gamers need a Samsung lobby.

no...errr...hell why don't we ask all "sources" to slow down so Sammy can keep up..
You seem to have lost the thread of your "newcomer's" rant.

I do find it very interesting that the only consistent DVD player that plays well on these TVs is a Sammy....Run sammy run....
Not very informed. The first Samsung DVD player that "may" do a good job with Samsung DLP sets is the new HD950. All the previous upscaling DVD players from Samsung have been less than wonderful. There have always been a few upscaling DVD players that did a good job with Samsung and other DLP sets. It's easy to find out which ones those are in the DVD Player forum.

Just in case you're new to the Samsung threads, and the AVS forums, keep this in mind; there are RCA DLP owners who believe that they have the finest TV sets ever built. I would never contradict them. :)

Enjoy.

One of the forum members (Administrator) had excellent communications with him...he receive a lot of answers to our questions...not saying they all came true...But I haven't seen him around here for awhile...and I have no clue how to contact Steve P.
May 3rd was his last post when he tried to help me. :o

I think that may have sent him over the edge. :eek:

I have the Oppo DVD player, and I'm struggling to find a good picture setting. I notice that there is definitely some macroblocking, and the picture sometimes is too dim to see (for example, certain scenes in Million Dollar Baby). Maybe I'm not used to the so called problems with black levels on DLPs, but I'm not too amazed by the black levels on the Sammy. Can someone give me some good settings?

I have the Oppo DVD player, and I'm struggling to find a good picture setting.
You can also ask here.

DVD Players (Standard Def) (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=18)

Anyone helping you in this thread will need to know how your Oppo is connected, which TV you have, and how you have the TV and the DVD player configured.

Many people are getting good results with the Oppo.

Good luck.

I just realized why I am probably not experiencing any video lag -
I am only sending 1080i via HDMI to the Samsung 6168 and therefore
the only processing is simple de-interlacing - no upscaling or
other conversion processing is occuring...

Tony,

I've been thinking that maybe some of the instances of video delay may be due to highly detailed video scenes with lots of motion taking longer to process than say a relatively simplier scene with minimum motion. The delay may be the DVD player, not necessarily in the display. Have you seen anything that suggest this??

UCSB: are you sure that this is a correct statement???

"All of the discussion about audio - video sync cover directly connecting your source component audio output directly to your receiver, by-passing the TV."

I could be wrong, but I thought that there were a few posts that indicated otherwise.

Folks, I'm a littled puzzled by the comment that there is no lip sync with the internal speakers.

If the audio to the internal speakers has been decoded and formatted so that there is no lip sync, why is it so difficult to transmit the properly delayed audio out to the optical port?

This doesn't make very much sense.

wrt1,

The problem is there is no way to get dolby digital 5.1 sound into the set except through the internal tuners. So if you've got a DVD player, PVR, STB, etc. you could do what you're suggesting but only with 2 channal L/R audio. That's why people are sending audio straight to the AVR rather than go through the TV so it syncs up the audio.

Jon

jlk: my understanding of HDMI is that the multichannel audio is supposed to be transmitted via this link. A post to the HDMI description (what it does and how it operates) was included on this thread, I believe. Whether or not the Samsung can receive, decode, and then retransmit it through its optical output are the questions.

I just realized why I am probably not experiencing any video lag -
I am only sending 1080i via HDMI to the Samsung 6168 and therefore
the only processing is simple de-interlacing - no upscaling or
other conversion processing is occuring...

I thought of the same thing. I was watching Jay Leno yesterday and noticed significant lip sync. Now, what I am not sure is that, if the delay is because of the STB. NBC is 720p, right? When you set the STB to 1080i, it converts it to 1080i. But, I did try setting it to 720p, but still did not make any noticable difference. When I watch HBO or ABC, I don't notice much lag.
I am going to try a couple of things this weekend.
1. Try connecting the component out from STB to my receiver and then to TV (Not sure if my HK supports 1080i via component)
2. Try connecting the audio to TV and then to my receiver. From what others have said, maybe I will lose 5.1, but I want to see if this resolves the lip sync issue

So, anyone using OTA directly to TV notice any lip sync issues?

nbc is 1080i, as well as cbs. fox and abc are 720p

nbc is 1080i, as well as cbs. fox and abc are 720p

Never mind, then. Now I am confused. But NBC even now has noticable lag.

if their are lip sync issues via the dvd, i understand i must direct the audio from the dvd to the avr (avoid the tv optical out altogether). But in order to get some of the hd programming in 5.1, wouldn't I also have to run the tv optical out to the avr anyway? Am I mistaking that hd content is not available in 5.1?

if their are lip sync issues via the dvd, i understand i must direct the audio from the dvd to the avr (avoid the tv optical out altogether). But in order to get some of the hd programming in 5.1, wouldn't I also have to run the tv optical out to the avr anyway? Am I mistaking that hd content is not available in 5.1?

You would use the TV optical out if you were using the TV's internal tuners. HD content does sometimes use 5.1 or other multichannel formats. Used this way, lip sync problems seem to be limited to those sent by the broadcaster. This setup is what I have on my HLRxx67. For those with STBs instead of the internal tuners there isn't much if any need for the TV's optical output.

Jon

It seems once you discover a lip sync issue, you look for it all the time.

Spending a 2nd day with my 6168, I have noticed lag with all connections: HDMI, Component and SVideo. The amount of lag varies greatly from channel to channel. HD signals seem to create the most amount of lag, while SD is a bit more tolerable.

I will have my Felston unit tomorrow. I will post a review once everything is connected. A couple of pages back, someone posted that most receivers have the lag adjustment deep in the unit's menu. The great thing about the Felston is it has it's own remote. You can adjust it like you adjust the volume on your receiver.

if their are lip sync issues via the dvd, i understand i must direct the audio from the dvd to the avr (avoid the tv optical out altogether). But in order to get some of the hd programming in 5.1, wouldn't I also have to run the tv optical out to the avr anyway? Am I mistaking that hd content is not available in 5.1?

To get 5.1 audio with HD you need to send the audio from your stb directly to the AVR via a digital cable. This is, however, more susceptible to sync problems that may need to be corrected either via a delay control in your AVR (if it has one) or an external delay device (e.g., Felston).

I can`t run with you guys from a technical stand point, but the tv I returned due to sync issues was a HLN. The t.v was not connected to any reciever, DVD, nothing but the comcast feed. At that time Samsung was blaming Comcast, and Comcast was blaming Samsung. Techs came to my home twice, changed some boards etc. I still had the lip sync issue. From my experience no matter how good the picture is, if there is sync issues you can`t watch the tv. Anybody that thinks they can just live with it, will find this to be a major problem.

It seems like a couple of the newer DVD players are adding lip sync delay directly to the player(Oppo, Panny, etc...). I think the Oppo even did this just bt updating the firmware. I am beginning to wonder if we may see such a feature in future firmware revisions of our STBs.

I can`t run with you guys from a technical stand point, but the tv I returned due to sync issues was a HLN. The t.v was not connected to any reciever, DVD, nothing but the comcast feed. At that time Samsung was blaming Comcast, and Comcast was blaming Samsung. Techs came to my home twice, changed some boards etc. I still had the lip sync issue. From my experience no matter how good the picture is, if there is sync issues you can`t watch the tv. Anybody that thinks they can just live with it, will find this to be a major problem.

I agree with you that lip sync is really annoying and something I, too, cannot live with. And it can have any number of origins, as have been discussed, including some sources themselves. And it happens with all sets, more or less. Thus I think the only satisfactory solution is to have an variable audio delay capability, either via the AVR (if it has this feature) or by adding the Felston unit; I don't think $230 is too much of an increment to a $3 to 5K system (tv, AVR, DVD,...) to eliminate this problem. My understanding of the Felston unit (I don't have one yet, but will get one if I see the need when I get my new 1080p set) is that one can program its remote to your main remote, and then be able to adjust the audio delay for any program with no more bother than adjusting the volume.

It seems like a couple of the newer DVD players are adding lip sync delay directly to the player(Oppo, Panny, etc...). I think the Oppo even did this just bt updating the firmware. I am beginning to wonder if we may see such a feature in future firmware revisions of our STBs.Yes...OPPO's latest firmware has added a lip sync delay fix...haven't had a chance to test this player, still waiting for my set.

I dont recall ever seeing ANY lip sync issue with the Panasonic HD2+ DLP ?

Does the Felston unit control all of your components...or just one?

A/V sync notes from second evening:

Setup (TW Cable)
--------------------------------
Video: SA8300HD ---(component)--> 5078
Audio: SA8300HD ---(digital coax)--> Denon 1803 AVR

Setup (DVD)
--------------------------------
Video: DVD-HD950 ---(HDMI)--> 5078
Audio: DVD-HD950 ---(toslink)--> Denon 1803 AVR

1) Flipped back and forth between NBC's SD and HD feeds of Leno last night. Noticed minimal to no lip-sync problem in SD, but saw a significant problem with the HD feed. The sync problem was consistent with this feed ... it did not fluctuate.

2) Comedy Central's broadcast of The Daily Show had a mild problem ... not horrible, but it was enough for my wife to notice and say something about it. For a short while I thought I noticed the sync problem getting worse the longer I watched, and then almost righting itself if I changed channels and went back (or changing sources slowly and returning) ... but now I'm doubtful that was the case, as it never got significantly worse. Just seemed like the problem wasn't consistent as I watched ... weird.

3) Minimal to no perceptible lip sync problems on most other channels.

4) Absolutely no perceptible lip sync problems on the few DVDs we tested out last night. Everything was right on.

Note: I had the 8300HD sending 1080i to the tv. Since it was connected over component, however, I'm wondering if it's either a) not really sending 1080i, or b) not performing as well as it would via HDMI. I'll check the manual thoroughly today and also test HDMI.

Tony,

I've been thinking that maybe some of the instances of video delay may be due to highly detailed video scenes with lots of motion taking longer to process than say a relatively simplier scene with minimum motion. The delay may be the DVD player, not necessarily in the display. Have you seen anything that suggest this??

I have seen ZERO delay from my 3910. I have seen ZERO delay on almost
every channel from Dish - I have noted the couple of exceptions which
I believe the has nothing to do with the Samsung.

If the set is receiving 1080i there is very little processing going on other
then de-interlacing which can be done almost entirely with DMA and
no processor intervention!

UCSB: are you sure that this is a correct statement???

"All of the discussion about audio - video sync cover directly connecting your source component audio output directly to your receiver, by-passing the TV."

I could be wrong, but I thought that there were a few posts that indicated otherwise.

I am sending no sound to my TV and have no video lag problems except for a
the known problem that is happening on Discovery HD and a couple
of Voom channels from time to time.

There are sync issues at many levels. The main one that is being discussed here and the other threads is when you go through an external a/v receiver. This is not the fault of the TV.

It could very well be what when the Samsung rep stated that the issue has been fixed on the new tvs, he was referring to your situation, not with a/v receivers.

I think there is a good chance that since you won't be using an a/v receiver, you won't have any issues that will be tv related.

We need current owners to state if they are using an a/v receiver when they report lip sync issues and also what channel from what provider. There is a consensus here that Discovery HD from Direct is currently screwed up.

I can`t run with you guys from a technical stand point, but the tv I returned due to sync issues was a HLN. The t.v was not connected to any reciever, DVD, nothing but the comcast feed. At that time Samsung was blaming Comcast, and Comcast was blaming Samsung. Techs came to my home twice, changed some boards etc. I still had the lip sync issue. From my experience no matter how good the picture is, if there is sync issues you can`t watch the tv. Anybody that thinks they can just live with it, will find this to be a major problem.

DVD-HD950 performance notes from second evening:

I've skimmed a few movies so far on the 950 and it seems to perform very nicely.

1) I mentioned yesterday that there was one scene that tripped it up in LOTR ROTK (pools of ambient light in Shelob's lair): The bluish haze at the end of the tunnel looked like it was constantly shifting, when it should look smooth and still. A lot of pixels were crawling all over the place. EDIT: I need to go back and double-check this in Movie mode on the 5078 or with the 5078's sharpness turned all the way down.

2) Finding Nemo is so far the only other film I've tried that gave the 950 fits. Some of the blue fields of softly gradated water were mildly banded. What I noticed more, though, was in the first chapter where both parents swim out of the anenome and into the open water ... they both had flat halos of lighter blue around them. I was annoyed at first, but then realized that I was in a custom picture setting on the 5078 with 25 on the sharpness. Switched to Movie mode, and presto! the banded halos around both fish were minimized to the point that I could only see them if I looked closely for them. EDIT: The overall banding in the water was minimized as well ... because the banding patterns were larger in scale than the halos around the fish, I still noticed them, just not nearly as much. The 950 has settings of 1-5 (default of 3) for sharpness and two other attributes. I haven't toyed with them yet.

More testing this weekend, of course.

EDIT: FYI, I was outputting 1080i from the 950. Noticed a much softer picture when outputting 480p. 720p output wasn't bad, but not as sharp as 1080i.

Millerwill, I have no problem spending $200-$300 for a Felston or any other piece of equipment thats solves this problem. Does everyone or the VAST majority agree this is a solution to sync issues? UCSB-? Htwait-? anyone-?

There are sync issues at many levels. The main one that is being discussed here and the other threads is when you go through an external a/v receiver. This is not the fault of the TV.

It could very well be what when the Samsung rep stated that the issue has been fixed on the new tvs, he was referring to your situation, not with a/v receivers.

I think there is a good chance that since you won't be using an a/v receiver, you won't have any issues that will be tv related.

We need current owners to state if they are using an a/v receiver when they report lip sync issues and also what channel from what provider. There is a consensus here that Discovery HD from Direct is currently screwed up.

I am sending all sound to my Denon AVR-4802 and no sound to my TV.
All video is being sent to my Samsung TV at 1080i and I have noticed no
video lag problems other than Discovery HD and a couple of Voom channels
from to time which therefore this appears to be a problem with broadcast and not
of my equipment.

I think USB brought up a good point Tony. There is an audiotory perception part to the equation. It could be that just as some people can see rainbows and some cannot, it could be that you have a different audiotory threshold than others.

But your point about only sending 1080i to the tv to keep the processing minimal is also valid.

I am sending all sound to my Denon AVR-4802 and no sound to my TV.
All video is being sent to my Samsung TV at 1080i and I have noticed no
video lag problems other than Discovery HD and a couple of Voom channels
from to time which therefore this appears to be a problem with broadcast and not
of my equipment.

I am sending all sound to my Denon AVR-4802 and no sound to my TV.
All video is being sent to my Samsung TV at 1080i and I have noticed no
video lag problems other than Discovery HD and a couple of Voom channels
from to time which therefore this appears to be a problem with broadcast and not
of my equipment.

Thats good news...I'll be doing the same thing but with a Denon AVR-2805....Hope I'm as lucky

I think I know what you mean -- it's as if white areas have been dusted with sand or granulated sugar. My impression is that this is due to the screen and the way light is dispersed when shining through it. I agree that it's not a major thing, though.

Very good description.

John

Have you tried: DVD-HD950 ---(HDMI)--> 5078 ---(toslink)--> Denon 1803 AVR ? If not, could you try that setup?Bob, I tested the following last night:

Video and Audio: DVD-HD950 ---(HDMI)--> 5078
Audio: 5078 ---(toslink)--> Denon 1803 AVR

As expected, I could not get the 5078 to accept an audio signal from the 950 in bistream mode (ie, DD or DTS of any flavor). It would not play the bitstream audio with it's internal speakers, nor would it pass on the bistream audio to my AVR. Consistently received the "HDMI Audio Not Supported" message, as has been discussed in the DVD forum for this player.

The only way I could get the 5078 to pass any audio signal from the 950 out to the AVR was if I switched the 950's audio output from bitstream to PCM (2-channel).

Does the Felston unit control all of your components...or just one?

You should check the Felston website (google Felston) to get all the scoop. But basically, there are two lines, and therefore two sources that are controlled. You put the Felston between the two sources and the AVR: a digital cable from each source (e.g., stb and dvd) to the Felston, and then two digital cables out of it to the two appropriate inputs of the AVR. The Felston has a remote for varying the audio delay (which can different for the two lines, I believe), and this remote can be 'learned' by your main remote.

I think USB brought up a good point Tony. There is an audiotory perception part to the equation. It could be that just as some people can see rainbows and some cannot, it could be that you have a different audiotory threshold than others.

But your point about only sending 1080i to the tv to keep the processing minimal is also valid.

I agree. UCSB's point is also that the 40ms to 100 ms time delay is due
to processing and as you state very little processing is occuring by sending
1080i to the set.

But I don't see rainbows either so maybe being all fu@ked up has its
advantages :-)

Thats good news...I'll be doing the same thing but with a Denon AVR-2805....Hope I'm as lucky

I would also make sure you send 1080i to the set to avoid the heavy processing...

Hey guys,
With the lip sync issue, doesn't this problem run much deeper than being able to be fixed by creating delay in your AV receiver? If you do that, then X-Box and PlayStation are going to have both audio and video delayed by 100 ms, which would be significant in games! :( I only play computer games, so it's not a concern for me, but it would be for a lot of people...

As for computer games and DVDs played on computer and output at 1080p, would there be no delay at all since there's no processing required to scale to 1080p? Has anyone tested this yet with games? With DVDs?

Sigh, this is saddening. Between the long video processing time and no 1080p input other than VGA (and the overscan someone reported on), it seems like waiting for future 1080p sets may be the safest thing to do (this fall?)... I know we all want the best picture possible, which we may get with the Samsung 1080p sets, but is it worth these big sacrifices? The problem is worse for me since my Denon 3802 doesn't allow for delay. Thoughts? Thanks,
--Kyle

I have been somewhat lurking here, and I do have a 6168 on the way, so I though I'd pony up my $.02 on the lip sync issues.

There are simply too many variables involved to have a very good idea in any particular setup of what may be compounding or possibly eliminating lag at various steps along the way of the seperate paths of audio and video that end up producing a lip sync issue. As stated before, the listeners sensitivity is also a huge factor.

Of course, the important variable along the video path is the TV -- how long does it take the TV to process a digital/analog signal, de-interlace, scale, apply DNIe or whatever else it is going to do and finally show an image on the screen. Since we are discussing sammy tv's this is what interests me. And, it would make sense, that the time it takes to process the signal would depend on the input source (d/a conversoins), input resolution (scaling), and if the source was interlaced or progressive (de-interlacing). These factors lead us all to believe that perhaps sending the 1920x1080p@60Hz over the VGA would have the TV doing the least ammount of processing (perhaps just a a/d conversion and some scaling in this case).

I am NOT a gamer, but I think the gaming posts about gaming lag are more interesting than the people posting about lip sync. Why? Because with a game console, when you tell Master Chief to shoot the alien, if the delay on the video path due to the tv's processing is long, there will be a definite delay between when you press "fire" on the controller and when the gun on the screen goes "bang". Again, this delay can be different depending on how you connect your xbox to your tv, but at least the xbox "source" is the same on all xboxes everywhere (meaning that every xbox playing halo should be the same, where as when people talk about lip sync, what source they had could be the issue by itself).

So, when I hear gamers post that playing games on the new sammys is fine, I am happy. This means that the processing delay along the video path is small enough that clicking buttons on the controller and hearing "bang" on the tv is not noticeable. However, there is a human aspect to this -- your gameplay could start to adjust for the lag... **sigh**

What I would like to see from a hardcore gamer, is a 1-2 hr Halo fest w/ xbox connected to a good old CRT, then IMMEDIATELY swich the xbox over to a sammy, and continue playing. Since you were just playing with "no" lag for 1-2 hrs, if there is any lag with the new setup it should be very evident to you (just like when I go on a 2000mi roadtrip drving my wife's Audi, and then I get home and immedately jump in my 993 to go to work since I am late for mtg -- wow, that Audi handles poorly even though I was just thinking about how well it handled an hour ago.. :-)

I think this would be a very interesting semi-scientific experiment that could tell us how much lag the tv is introducing.

Because on the whole, gamers seem to be satisifed with the new sammy's, I am at least not that worried about lip sync **due to the TV introducing video lag***.

-reiner

Hey guys,
With the lip sync issue, doesn't this problem run much deeper than being able to be fixed by creating delay in your AV receiver? If you do that, then X-Box and PlayStation are going to have both audio and video delayed by 100 ms, which would be significant in games! :( I only play computer games, so it's not a concern for me, but it would be for a lot of people...The audio delay via delay device or AVR may match up the audio with the video for any signal, but yes, there still may be an inherent lag between the signals output by the console and the time it takes for the tv to display a response to those signals. Using a delay feature for the audio probably wouldn't make playing a console game any worse, since it's not affecting the video (which may already have that inherent lag anyway).

The video lag as it relates to console games is still an outsanding issue that needs more testing. I'll be testing my Xbox and PS2 via component this weekend.

DVD-HD950 performance notes from second evening:

2) Finding Nemo is so far the only other film I've tried that gave the 950 fits.
I carried Finding Nemo with me every time I went out to check DLP sets. It's banding (background water mostly) was visible on every set that I auditioned. That included HD2 Optoma, Loewe (50" A $7k), and Samsung. It also includes HD2+ sets from Samsung, Mitsubishi and Panasonic.

My current HLP5063 set, even after calibration, has visible banding in several Nemo scenes. It doesn't make the halo effect stand out though.

I've only seen one set where the "Nemo" banding was hard to see if you didn't know to look for it very carefully. That set was a Samsung HLN507 (HD2 chip) calibrated by SethS. That's the only calibrated set I've ever had a chance to see other than my own set.

From what I've read in the DVD media forum that's just the way Finding Nemo is. You can minimize the effects, but you can't get rid of them all together. At least that has been true for the sets that I've auditioned.

Does everyone or the VAST majority agree this is a solution to sync issues? UCSB-? Htwait-? anyone-?
It sounds possible. There should be some testing going on soon.

Wow ... this thread is growing fast. 1000 posts in two weeks. May be a record ...

From what I've read in the DVD media forum that's just the way Finding Nemo is. You can minimize the effects, but you can't get rid of them all together. At least that been true for the sets that I've auditioned.Thanks, that's very good to know. Like I said, with the right settings, the halo effect can be all but eliminated, and the banding doesn't bother me too much -- I assumed it would be tough material for both the player and the tv.

BTW, really enjoyed reading about your calibrated HLP ... I may have to spring for calibration in a few months, just to see what this baby can really do.

UCSB: are you sure that this is a correct statement???

"All of the discussion about audio - video sync cover directly connecting your source component audio output directly to your receiver, by-passing the TV."

I could be wrong, but I thought that there were a few posts that indicated otherwise.

I don't believe that there are any problems with the TV's ability to sync video with it's own internal speakers. We have not checked the service menu details yet, but I would expect to see an internal sync adjustment in the service menu.

Millerwill, I have no problem spending $200-$300 for a Felston or any other piece of equipment thats solves this problem. Does everyone or the VAST majority agree this is a solution to sync issues? UCSB-? Htwait-? anyone-?

I think the best approach is wait until you get the set and evaluate the TV's performance with your own components and service providers. You probably will not notice any sync problems and then you will not have to add the Felston (or similar) into your setup. We all tweak our HT's to improve performance. Sync, like PQ, sound quality and many other other areas is a possible area to tune.

But, let's face it, many of us are hobbyist's and the Felston sounds like a fun piece of equipment. If you need to delay audio and your receiver can't do it, then it would be nice to have.

Thats good news...I'll be doing the same thing but with a Denon AVR-2805....Hope I'm as lucky

Everyone is talking about how the new Samsung sets have the same lip sync issue that the old Samsung sets do. My question is this...... Is Samsung the only DLP to have this issue, or have the Toshiba's and Mitsubishi's of the world experienced the same lip sync issues. If it's just Samsung, then I truly think they are at fault for not fixing the issue with these new sets. I've looked occasionally at the Mitsubishi forums, and lip sync never seems to come up.

2) Finding Nemo is so far the only other film I've tried that gave the 950 fits. Some of the blue fields of softly gradated water were mildly banded. What I noticed more, though, was in the first chapter where both parents swim out of the anenome and into the open water ... they both had flat halos of lighter blue around them. I was annoyed at first, but then realized that I was in a custom picture setting on the 5078 with 25 on the sharpness. Switched to Movie mode, and presto! the banded halos around both fish were minimized to the point that I could only see them if I looked closely for them. EDIT: The overall banding in the water was minimized as well ... because the banding patterns were larger in scale than the halos around the fish, I still noticed them, just not nearly as much. The 950 has settings of 1-5 (default of 3) for sharpness and two other attributes. I haven't toyed with them yet.

From what I understand, those "halos" around the fish in Finding Nemo are intentional and are supposed to be there. It's simulating light reflecting off the different types of scales on the fish or something.

And I can't wait for my 6168 to ship! :D

You should check the Felston website (google Felston) to get all the scoop. But basically, there are two lines, and therefore two sources that are controlled. You put the Felston between the two sources and the AVR: a digital cable from each source (e.g., stb and dvd) to the Felston, and then two digital cables out of it to the two appropriate inputs of the AVR. The Felston has a remote for varying the audio delay (which can different for the two lines, I believe), and this remote can be 'learned' by your main remote.

One more thing to keep in mind. If you have an analog audio source that needs to be delayed, you will need an analog to digital converter before plugging into the Felston. AVR receivers with audio delay also work on analog inputs as well as digital inputs.

Everyone is talking about how the new Samsung sets have the same lip sync issue that the old Samsung sets do.

The new 1080p Samsungs do NOT have the same lip sync problems that were reported in prior years, especially the HLN series. Without bringing up the past, what we are discussing now is unique to the HLR 1080p series.

I am sending no sound to my TV and have no video lag problems except for a the known problem that is happening on Discovery HD and a couple of Voom channels from time to time.

Tony your posts carry a lot of weight with me because your receiver has the ability to add an audio delay. So, I think you could easily (probably < 5 min's) fix any problem that you observed. The fact that you have not even dialed in a small correction means that the performance of your system is great. Can you confirm that the 4802 does not have an audio delay set from your prior TV setup?

Everyone is talking about how the new Samsung sets have the same lip sync issue that the old Samsung sets do. My question is this...... Is Samsung the only DLP to have this issue, or have the Toshiba's and Mitsubishi's of the world experienced the same lip sync issues. If it's just Samsung, then I truly think they are at fault for not fixing the issue with these new sets. I've looked occasionally at the Mitsubishi forums, and lip sync never seems to come up.

I will give a shot at responding to this. I think all sets will have this issue when one sends the audio directly to the AVR (so as to be able to get 5.1 audio). Frankly, I think the Mits dlp's have had enough more serious issues (bright spots, fan noise, screen tilt, dimness of the 62" set, etc.) that lip sync has never risen to the surface in the discussion about them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Mits basher; in fact I'm going to wait to see their 73" 1080p set to compare it to the Sammy 7178 before deciding which one to get; I'm hoping that Mits will have worked out these 'bugs' in their second generation dlp's. (Actually, their first generation, the present 720p sets, is very impressive in PQ, with just a variety of finer details need to get ironed out.)

And as I've said in several earlier comments, I think that a unit like the Felston 540 really makes the lip sync issue moot. With its ability to dial the audio delay from 0 to
340 msec, in 1 msec increments, one can dial in audio-video sync more perfectly than any system can provide. (I don't think any AVR is this flexible, but I may be wrong.) Now I'm not selling these Felston things--and I don't have one, and won't order one until I've gotten my new tv and see if I need it--but it just sounds ideal. I do look forward to someone reporting on using it to see if it really is as neat as it sounds.

I could be totally wrong here, mostly because I don't fully understand how deinterlacing works, but hear me out.

With respect to video delay for DVDs, wouldn't you be better off feeding the set 720p for DVDs from say a Samsung 950 or Oppo unit and have the set scale the signal to 1080p as opposed to sending it a 1080i signal and having the set deinterlace it to 1080p? The logic behind this is that if you're sending an interlaced signal, the set has to wait for both fields to come through before displaying them as one frame, correct? Well, if you're sending 48fps (fields) to get 24fps (frames), the set has to wait for the fields to come through before it can display the full frames, right? This would contribute at least a little to any delay for which the TV set is responsible (perhaps if it has to wait for both frames to come in it could be as much as 1/24 of a second, or ~40ms). With 720p it doesn't have to do that, it just scales. I guess I'm wondering which takes more time, scaling or deinterlacing? I would think the latter.

This case would only apply for movies, since you'd want to display HDTV content at it's highest resolution, whether 720p or 1080i.

I'm just thinking out loud, so perhaps someone can set me straight on this.

I carried Finding Nemo with me every time I went out to check DLP sets. It's banding (background water mostly) was visible on every set that I auditioned. That included HD2 Optoma, Loewe (50" A $7k), and Samsung. It also includes HD2+ sets from Samsung, Mitsubishi and Panasonic.

My current HLP5063 set, even after calibration, has visible banding in several Nemo scenes. It doesn't make the halo effect stand out though.

I've only seen one set where the "Nemo" banding was hard to see if you didn't know to look for it very carefully. That set was a Samsung HLN507 (HD2 chip) calibrated by SethS. That's the only calibrated set I've ever had a chance to see other than my own set.

From what I've read in the DVD media forum that's just the way Finding Nemo is. You can minimize the effects, but you can't get rid of them all together. At least that has been true for the sets that I've auditioned.

That makes me a little more calm. I was going through some of my dvd's last night and nemo was one of the ones I put in and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. The abyss (special addition, non-animorphic) also looks really bad in the dark water scenes.

My this thread moves way to fast, especially since I seem to only get notifications in my inbox every now and then.

Well with me, my installer has contacted his vendor (I think it might be direct from Samsung) and is supposed to get back to me soon about pricing for my 6168.

So just for my own clarification:

1. The Toslink on the TV does NOT send 5.1
2. HDMI is awesome, as is VGA
3. Lip Sync is still touch and go, and seems to vary a lot
4. The Denon 3910 is ;_; with the 6168, so perhaps I should look at something else? :(
5. the SA 8300HD *should* work good with HDMI?
6. Overall everyone is happy and making me envious

- D

I received my 6168 a couple of hours ago. I hooked up my HTPC via VGA and set the resolution to 1920x1080@60Hz. My system is an A64 3200+, 1 GB Corsair XMS, 6600GT, latest NVIDIA drivers and running Windows XP Pro. I am using a high quality VGA cable from Ram Electronics. The desktop does not come close to filling the screen and is hard to read. I tried messing with the settings on the TV - PC Wide Mode and enlarging the image as big as it will go. This adds a fair amount of overscan vertically (task bar pretty much off the screen) but comes up a good 6 or 8 inches short horizontally. As a result any TV/DVD output from the HTPC doesn't fill the screen and is rather poor in quality. Suggestions appreciated. Thanks

p.s. The TV reports 1920x1080@60Hz when I press the Info button.

I dont recall ever seeing ANY lip sync issue with the Panasonic HD2+ DLP ?

If you search for sync in the panny thread you will get some hits, like the one below.

Panny Sunc issue ? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4705147&highlight=sync#post4705147)

UCSB: could you set up a table somewhere that we could refer to which has the coaxial, ota, cable card and HDMI inputs to the TV and what comes out of the optical output as a function of the input?

It is really confusing as to whether the optical output has been compensated for lip sync and whether the optical output is 2.0 or 5.1.

If we could get "ground truth" on this issue, it would sure help me and probably a lot of people out there understand what is the "best" way to connect the set to the various sources.

TIA!!

The abyss (special addition, non-animorphic) also looks really bad in the dark water scenes.
Non-anamorphic wide screen films were created with a portion of the 4x3 negative. To display correctly on a 16x9 screen they have to be zoomed. Both those factors contribute to poor image quality.

Is that 1080i or 1080p?

1080p

The desktop does not come close to filling the screen and is hard to read. I tried messing with the settings on the TV - PC Wide Mode and enlarging the image as big as it will go.

I'd start to play around with the sizing options that your nvidia driver gives you in the advanced tab of the display control panel. For most of the more advanced nvidia cards (which you have) there will be a "Screen Adjustment" section in nView.

-reiner

I'd start to play around with the sizing options that your nvidia driver gives you in the advanced tab of the display control panel. For most of the more advanced nvidia cards (which you have) there will be a "Screen Adjustment" section in nView.

-reiner


The only thing in the Screen Adjustment section is Position. No sizing adjustments.

The new 1080p Samsungs do NOT have the same lip sync problems that were reported in prior years, especially the HLN series. Without bringing up the past, what we are discussing now is unique to the HLR 1080p series.

UCSB-How is what happening now different from the lip sync issues of the older models. I don't need to get into what happened before, but I would think a lip sync issue is still a lip sync issue. If they fixed the old issue but created a new one on the HLR's, then I don't see how anything has changed. Also, have you heard of any other brand having this problem? I owned a Mitu for a while last year and never saw and issues with sound (unfortunatly, there were so many other issues, it didn't matter).

Thanks!

Once again, prior models might have had issues with lip sync when using the TVs internal speakers. These new models shouldn't have these issues. What everyone is documenting here is audio delays when using an external a/v receiver.

Everyone is talking about how the new Samsung sets have the same lip sync issue that the old Samsung sets do. My question is this...... Is Samsung the only DLP to have this issue, or have the Toshiba's and Mitsubishi's of the world experienced the same lip sync issues. If it's just Samsung, then I truly think they are at fault for not fixing the issue with these new sets. I've looked occasionally at the Mitsubishi forums, and lip sync never seems to come up.

UCSB,

Thank you...will do.

Ed,

I called them and had a transaction number within 2 to 3 mintues and got the local guy on the phone and he has been in constant contact with me. Looks like 2 day air didn't make it and I will have to wait until Monday to get my fix in. Samsung has been awesome so far with support.

Scott

The only thing in the Screen Adjustment section is Position. No sizing adjustments.

Goob, you should probably download PowerStrip from Entech. It is try-before-you e-buy shareware and is a must for anyone with an HTPC. There are many references to it here on the forums. It should allow you to make nearly every adjustment you need.

Linky (http://entechtaiwan.net/util/ps.shtm)

UCSB-How is what happening now different from the lip sync issues of the older models. I don't need to get into what happened before, but I would think a lip sync issue is still a lip sync issue. If they fixed the old issue but created a new one on the HLR's, then I don't see how anything has changed. Also, have you heard of any other brand having this problem? I owned a Mitu for a while last year and never saw and issues with sound (unfortunatly, there were so many other issues, it didn't matter).

Thanks!

The HLN (2003) sync issues were extremely serious because they were in the set's tuners and own internal speakers. You couldn't watch SD TV with them if you were directly on a cable feed or OTA. This made it impossible for owners in this class to keep their units. The other lip sync issues back then were the same external receiver sync issue we are talking about today. I own a HLN and easily worked around all of the problems. Eventually, Samsung created a hardware/firmware fix and owners could get the upgrade.

Any HDTV that is scaling and deinterlacing an image will introduce some video lag. The important question is whether it is noticable.

I really think that we need to calm this sync discussion down and let owners report on their experiences.

Goob, you should probably download PowerStrip from Entech. It is try-before-you e-buy shareware and is a must for anyone with an HTPC. There are many references to it here on the forums. It should allow you to make nearly every adjustment you need.

Linky (http://entechtaiwan.net/util/ps.shtm)

I was under the impression that with the latest NVIDIA drivers, PowerStrip is no longer required? I tried my other computer that has an NVIDIA 6800GT with the same poor results. DVI->HDMI does display full screen and the TV reports 1920x1080i@60Hz but the image quality is quite poor. Text is virtually unreadable. My 15 year old 20" Sony is looking pretty good about now. Ugh...

I was under the impression that with the latest NVIDIA drivers, PowerStrip is no longer required? I tried my other computer that has an NVIDIA 6800GT with the same poor results. DVI->HDMI does display full screen and the TV reports 1920x1080i@60Hz but the image quality is quite poor. Text is virtually unreadable. My 15 year old 20" Sony is looking pretty good about now. Ugh...

I am running a 6800GT and had no problems getting output from my PC to my 5668W via VGA.. I am using a standard cheap shielded vga cable and using the latest drivers from nvidia... All I had to do was set the display to 1920x1080 in display properties and it came up perfect with some underscan.. This was easily fixed by the adjustments in the TV. Maximizing the display size seems to get me 1:1 pixel mapping, but there is some overscan.. Even when sizing it up for no under / overscan the quality is still really good.

Didn't someone mention that they had problems with an expensive vga cable and switching to a generic cable resolved their issues? Have no idea why this would change anything but I guess it is worth a try if it has been mentioned.

I think that some of the video delay problem I’m seeing is my cable provider. My neighbor told me he is getting a $10/mo. discount on his cable service because he complained to TW about it. TW said it’s a known issue in our area but most people don’t notice. The neighbor has a 100+ inch front projection unit, which may make it more apparent. On my older CRT based rear projection TV lip sync is not perfect but it’s not overly objectionable. I’m thinking now that it’s the combination of cable lag and 6168 lag that I find objectionable. I don’t believe the video lag I get with DVDs on average is objectionable but it’s there. Anyone that is convinced that they don’t have it should do the echo test (TV audio and AVR audio on together). The TV lag by itself may be in the tolerable range but adding a little more from the source may be too much.

Tony your posts carry a lot of weight with me because your receiver has the ability to add an audio delay. So, I think you could easily (probably < 5 min's) fix any problem that you observed. The fact that you have not even dialed in a small correction means that the performance of your system is great. Can you confirm that the 4802 does not have an audio delay set from your prior TV setup?

Yes. There is no audio delay set in my Denon receiver except for the number
of feet I am from each speaker.

But because of my setup, i.e. all video going to the Samsung and all
audio going to the Denon receiver there *must* be some difference
in the time it takes to process audio and the time it takes to de-interlace
and DMD process the video signal. I suspect this must be a very small
time difference since I don't experience a difference ( except of course
for Discovery HD and for a couple of Voom channels where I have tried
to "read lips" ).

I am running a 6800GT and had no problems getting output from my PC to my 5668W via VGA.. I am using a standard cheap shielded vga cable and using the latest drivers from nvidia... All I had to do was set the display to 1920x1080 in display properties and it came up perfect with some underscan.. This was easily fixed by the adjustments in the TV. Maximizing the display size seems to get me 1:1 pixel mapping, but there is some overscan.. Even when sizing it up for no under / overscan the quality is still really good.

Didn't someone mention that they had problems with an expensive vga cable and switching to a generic cable resolved their issues? Have no idea why this would change anything but I guess it is worth a try if it has been mentioned.


I beleive the problem with an expensive vga cable was resolved by changing a setting in the ATI driver control panel. I think he was getting the "Not Supported" message until he did this. I'll have to go buy another VGA cable and give that a try as it appears to be either the cable or a defective TV. The fact that HDMI looks bad makes me think it's the TV.

I beleive the problem with an expensive vga cable was resolved by changing a setting in the ATI driver control panel. I think he was getting the "Not Supported" message until he did this. I'll have to go buy another VGA cable and give that a try as it appears to be either the cable or a defective TV. The fact that HDMI looks bad makes me think it's the TV.

The problem with high-end VGA cables is they use lower gauge wire. The lower gauge wire takes up more room, so they end up leaving out the wires necessary to pass the EDID information. If the TV cannot tell the computer what timings it wants to see, the computer has to guess...

John

The problem with high-end VGA cables is they use lower gauge wire. The lower gauge wire takes up more room, so they end up leaving out the wires necessary to pass the EDID information. If the TV cannot tell the computer what timings it wants to see, the computer has to guess...

John

I am getting a picture with the high-end VGA cable, it's just not the right size. The TV is reporting it is getting 1920x1080 @ 60Hz so the timings seem correct. The cable is one of Ram's EZ-VGA with a 6pin connector so I wouldn't have to drill a huge hole in my cabinet to run the wire. Perhaps that has something to do with the problem. http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/hdtv-cables.html#vgamm

The good news is that it was that darn VGA cable. I bought a $15 VGA cable and I am getting a fullscreen desktop. Thanks for all the help and advice. Someday I hope to have sufficient knowledge to help others here too.

tony: I am about ready to pull my hair out on this lip sync issue. Why is it that you do not see lip sync and many others do?????? Are your sources set to 1080I?

Folks, what are the differences that we are seeing here???????????

There has got to be some "ground truth" here SOMEWHERE!!!!!

Why am I so interested?

I may be in the market for 2 of the 61" HD TVs. Before I spend that much money, I really want to understand what the H*** is going on with lip sync!!!!!!!!!!!!!

tony: I am about ready to pull my hair out on this lip sync issue. Why is it that you do not see lip sync and many others do?????? Are your sources set to 1080I?

Folks, what are the differences that we are seeing here???????????

There has got to be some "ground truth" here SOMEWHERE!!!!!

Why am I so interested?

I may be in the market for 2 of the 61" HD TVs. Before I spend that much money, I really want to understand what the H*** is going on with lip sync!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whoa, calm down! Liip sync is really not an issue. Except for gamers, there's a reasonable chance you may not notice the problem at all. If you do, there's a simple and relatively inexpensive fix that is easy to implement. I agree with UCSB's comments above: let's tone down all the lip sync hysteria; it's really not an issue.

The only thing in the Screen Adjustment section is Position. No sizing adjustments.

Whoops, sorry, you are right. I think that you are off to the fun land of custom mode timings (eg what powerstrip does). On the newer nvidia drivers you should be able to go to the "Screen Resolution & Refresh Rates" (again in the advanced page of the display cpl, on the tab for your card). There is a button that says "Advanced Timings" -- now you too will be confused by such terms as "front porch" and "Sync width" :)

google for "how to custom timings" and you should get some hits on what to change and what these mean to help change your screen resolution.

-reiner

p.s. I have never messed around with this (but I was reading up on it in anticipatation of my own 6168 arriving and using my htpc to drive it). If anyone else has already futzed w/ powerstrip and/or the newer ati/nvida drivers might have better tips.

Miller: well, I'm as calm as I can be, right now.

But, the lip sync "issue" has been around for quite a while. We have had numerous reports of it, here on this board. So, I just can't conclude that it ISN'T a problem.

I get the specific impression that we have not had an all together complete answer when someone asked the primary Samsung reps. They ought to know. Maybe they didn't understand the question? Maybe the answer was not properly relayed herein? What is ground truth?

I really would like to see some sort of tabulation as to what the sources were/ settings, connection type, and was there lip sync whether the HT was connected to the source or the TV.

Let me be a little more specific with my questions.

1. Does 5.1 transmitted on the HDMI get transmitted to the optical output? Initial results indicate NO. What is ground truth?

2. Is the audio that is received at the tuner lip sync corrected for the internal speakers? Initial results indicate YES. What is ground truth?

3. Is the audio that is received at the tuner lip sync corrected for the optical output? Initial results are Inconclusive. What is ground truth?

4. What is the video delay/ lag when converting from 480? 720P? 1080I? Initial results are Unknown? What is ground truth?

If the majority of the posts are accurate:

1. I believe that the best way to connect the HDTV to cable is to use a cable card in the TV and connect the HT receiver via the TV's optical link. Forget the cable box.

2. I believe that the best way to connect the HDTV to a DVD is through HDMI/DVI with the DVD set to transmit 1080I. The HT audio receiver should be connected, in this case, directly to the DVD by optical cable. The notion here is that the conversion time in the TV to get from 1080I to 1080P is minimal and lip sync with the HT audio will also be minimal.

So: LET'S HEAR IT!!!!!!!!

Which of my beliefs/ assumptions are correct?

Which are wrong.

Let's get some metrics going!!!!!!!!!!!!

PS: I checked with the local Tweeters and they will not have a set for me to look at until the end of next week. What a bummer!

I respectably disagree with UCSB and anyone else that think we should calm down. We all have waited a very long time for this TV. This problem has been going on in one form or another for a long long time. People have this TV on order, many with delivery dates. I think we have a right to know NOW if there is a problem, prior to delivery and hours of setup. If not enough people have taken delivery to warrant a true test, I understand this and lets give the market more time to test. At this time to me and many people lip sync is a deal buster. Picture quality at this point is secondary. This issue should stay prevalent on this site until we have a consensus. I for one hope the pressure is kept up on this issue. My 5678 delivery date on is 8/5.

wko: I agree COMPLETELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've seen alot of mention of "Lag" for gaming consoles in some models, I'm in the market for an 1080p HDTV,these samsung models in particular, and I'd really like to know more about it.

If I missed any explainations in the thread, forgive me, I've read/skimmed all 35 pages, but what is it exactly that causes the video "lag" in these HDTVs?
If its noticeable, how noticeable is it? (are we talking like the differance between a 25ms LCD and 12ms LCD monitor? I.e. Noticeable but only if youve been using one for awhile, and unoticeable if your used to it?).

My main use for HDTV is going to be gaming, so I'm very curious if I should be concerned about any of this, any explainations or links to such, would be very apprectated.

If you search for sync in the panny thread you will get some hits, like the one below.



I used the Panasonic DLP for some time, it had no lip sync issues. It had a fan noise issue.

It seems Samsung sets do, that is not a problem in its self if Samsung added a delay adjustment to the outputted audio feeds.
Problem would be solved, but to suggest people buy a new receiver is not going to sell TV's.

Suggesting it's not a problem is only going to result in disappointed buyers and returns, I think Samsung needs to address this quickly?

I respectably disagree with UCSB and anyone else that think we should calm down. We all have waited a very long time for this TV. This problem has been going on in one form or another for a long long time. People have this TV on order, many with delivery dates. I think we have a right to know NOW if there is a problem, prior to delivery and hours of setup. If not enough people have taken delivery to warrant a true test, I understand this and lets give the market more time to test. At this time to me and many people lip sync is a deal buster. Picture quality at this point is secondary. This issue should stay prevalent on this site until we have a consensus. I for one hope the pressure is kept up on this issue. My 5678 delivery date on is 8/5.

If I may stand up for UCSB, it is not that we can’t express experiences with lip sync on this forum but there is currently a void of good information and technical testing and it’s currently being filled with theory, conjecture, and sometimes misinformation. As more experienced and skilled users (ISF calibrators as an example) get there hands on these sets we will have more useful and verifiable information.

PS I’m waiting to hear too.
:confused:

At this time to me and many people lip sync is a deal buster.
That's an easy one. Bust your deal if you don't like the product. There are more product coming. At some point you will find one you like. That's the only deal you should take.

Others seem to like their current deal.

This issue should stay prevalent on this site until we have a consensus.
Consensus at AVS. You've got to be kidding. ;)

I for one hope the pressure is kept up on this issue. My 5678 delivery date on is 8/5.
Pressure kept up on who? By whom?

The only pressure that you can create is to give your new TV a trial. If it doesn't meet your expectations return it.

If you mean you hope that there will continue to be messages about lip sync mismatches then you will get your wish. With so many sources for sync problems in the data chain, from creation to HDTV screen, there are going to be problems for a long long time.

One solution would be a sync key built into the video/audio data stream. That would require an industry standard for establishing the correct linkage after any modification of either video or audio. It would also require a lot of new equipment.

If you want to check out industry standards and how they work just take a look at the current situation with high definition DVDs. :eek:

Another solution would be video processing that was so fast the lag wouldn't be perceived by a high percentage of viewers. That would fix the TV sets but may not fix what seems to be going on at the source.

I respectably disagree with UCSB and anyone else that think we should calm down. We all have waited a very long time for this TV. This problem has been going on in one form or another for a long long time. People have this TV on order, many with delivery dates. I think we have a right to know NOW if there is a problem, prior to delivery and hours of setup. If not enough people have taken delivery to warrant a true test, I understand this and lets give the market more time to test. At this time to me and many people lip sync is a deal buster. Picture quality at this point is secondary. This issue should stay prevalent on this site until we have a consensus. I for one hope the pressure is kept up on this issue. My 5678 delivery date on is 8/5.

No offense taken ... I understand everyone's interest in this issue is motivated by good intentions; ie., they want their purchases to work out. My HLR5668W will probably be arriving next week and I will see if I can get closer to an answer on this issue. I am in no way questioning peoples comments about this issue up to this point ... but, I am just having trouble keeping the hard data people are reporting in focus and context with so many comments swirling around the topic.