Oh, by the way, DVDO, you're welcome for the Settings spreadsheet. :)

Josh@dvdo,

Could you please answer some questions for me?

On Saturday (March 11), I ordered the "DVDO iScan VP30", from DVDO.com, and I'm keeping in mind the on-line statement: "iScan VP30 temporarily oversold. Orders placed today will be held in backlog and be shipped in order of receipt as soon as new supplies are available."

After reading this thread (not all 92 :eek: pages of course!), I'm starting to wonder if I should cancel my order and reorder when the Upgrade you mentioned on Page 1, is already installed. I realize there is a "30 day, no quibble, money back guarantee", but with the delay, I thought it would be a good opportunity to ask now.

You stated:

Upgradeable to ABT's Reference SD Deinterlacing technology (as shown at CES 2006 vs. DCDi and HQV)

•SD(480i/576i) Source, Motion and Edge Adaptive Deinterlacer
o Five-field motion adaptive deinterlacingo Edge adaptive processing to produce smooth diagonal edgeso Three frame video processing delay (Max)o Game Mode with very low latency (sub-1 frame delay)
• Arbitrary cadence detection (any:any) to detect non-standard cadences in input signals.
o Reliable 2:2 pull-down detection for 50Hz countrieso Detection of 2:2 to/from 3:2 crossfades and out of phase 3:2 crossfadeso Detection of multiple source types within a frame for example video titles over film o Bad edit detection and compensation to minimize artifacts caused by sequence breaks in film content
Stay tuned for pricing, Available Late April!!! :D

Secondly, when I called ABT @ (866) 423-3836 to ask about the (Optional) SDI modification to the DVDO iScan VP30, they said they didn’t install this and I would have to find a place to modify it, after I receive the unit.

Can you give me the name of a place in the local Sacramento, California Area?

Thanks,

Paul

Everyone agrees that 480i HDMI dvd player is inferior to SDI player for a VP?
I am under the impression that the difference between 480i/576i SDI and 480i/576i HDMI is the chroma subsampling:

SDI is 4:2:0 -- i.e. the raw color information from MPEG2 decoder.

HDMI is 4:2:2 -- i.e. the player has processed the color information, it has upsampled the chroma information.

Video Processors work best with the most raw picture data, period. Therefore you should get the best results from feeding video processor SDI rather than HDMI, and thereby enabling your video processor to upsample the color not the player.

Here's a link that explains differences between 4:2:2 and 4:2:0 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling

Wikipedia says that SDI is 4:2:2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_Digital_Interface but maybe that's just HD-SDI?

Now I am confused! :confused: But the picture quality from VP30 with SDI inputs is superb.

StooMonster

Thanks Stoo, that is the most valid point I have heard about SDI vs HDMI, I never thought about the color side of things

I have my display room apart for today cleaning or I would check, I am fairly certain that the info screen on my VP30 lists 4:2:0 as the color input when using SDI, it could very well be the opposite though :) as I have only pulled it up once or twice

I am also amazed at the SDI dvd playback of the VP30, great great stuff, no wonder Denon picked the same scaling for the 5910 ;)

-Gary

I am under the impression that the difference between 480i/576i SDI and 480i/576i HDMI is the chroma subsampling:

SDI is 4:2:0 -- i.e. the raw color information from MPEG2 decoder.

HDMI is 4:2:2 -- i.e. the player has processed the color information, it has upsampled the chroma information.
SDI is 4:2:2. While the encoded data on DVDs is stored in 4:2:0 format, virtually all MPEG decoders convert this to 4:2:2 before it leaves the chip. This is the source of the CUE problem some decoders suffer from, and one reason why it is important to get a player with a good MPEG decoder even if you're using SDI.

- Dale Adams

SDI is 4:2:2. While the encoded data on DVDs is stored in 4:2:0 format, virtually all MPEG decoders convert this to 4:2:2 before it leaves the chip. This is the source of the CUE problem some decoders suffer from, and one reason why it is important to get a player with a good MPEG decoder even if you're using SDI.

- Dale Adams

Is the MPEG decoder in the Oppo player any good?

Thanks for the clarification Dale.

Quick question: if Realta has HQV and Gennum has VXP, what's the marketing name of your new deinterlacing chip?

StooMonster

Is the MPEG decoder in the Oppo player any good?

The MPEG decoder in the OPPO 970H is the same one as in the 971H, it's manufactured by MediaTek. The 971H currently has the highest score on the Secrets DVD Benchmark.

Kris Deering discusses the MPEG decoder in his review of the 971H here:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=&manufacturer=68&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0

Pairing up OPPO's 970H with the VP30 should result is stunning picture quality.

The MPEG decoder in the OPPO 970H is the same one as in the 971H, it's manufactured by MediaTek. The 971H currently has the highest score on the Secrets DVD Benchmark.

Kris Deering discusses the MPEG decoder in his review of the 971H here:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=&manufacturer=68&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0

Pairing up OPPO's 970H with the VP30 should result is stunning picture quality.


Well I just sent my Oppo player out for SDI and I have the iScan HD+ not the VP30. I may invest in the next model iScan but for now the HD+ will have to do.

Secondly, when I called ABT @ (866) 423-3836 to ask about the (Optional) SDI modification to the DVDO iScan VP30, they said they didn’t install this and I would have to find a place to modify it, after I receive the unit.

Can you give me the name of a place in the local Sacramento, California Area?

Thanks,

Paul
I can answer this part, adding the SDI module to the VP30 is a relatively simple operation, swapping out a video card in a computer could be considered more work than the SDI module. I believe DVDO has the instructions online at their site.

Seeing the OPPO guys aren't too far from DVDO I sure hope the OPPO guys sent the DVDO guys a demo unit of the 970H so that there will be no HDMI problems with a 970H+VP30 combo. *hint hint* ;)

So, just so I'm clear: wouldn't it make sense to just buy the upcoming OPPO which sends 480i over HDMI, instead of modding two units? Sounds like the OPPO keeps things in the "digital" stream just like the SDI mods are meant to do. I want 2 DVD players hooked into my VP30 - one for my bitstream custom intro and 1 for the movies. The OPPO represents a very cost effective way of doing this it seems. Even if I only get one OPPO 970H and a higher end 480i machine (Pioneer 59/79) for the good stuff. Or do I have this wrong somehow? BTW, it's for use in my HT with a 127" wide CH screen.

Seeing the OPPO guys aren't too far from DVDO I sure hope the OPPO guys sent the DVDO guys a demo unit of the 970H so that there will be no HDMI problems with a 970H+VP30 combo. *hint hint* ;)

Where is everyone getting this info on a new Oppo player? There is no mention of a new player on the Oppo site that I could find.

Where is everyone getting this info on a new Oppo player? There is no mention of a new player on the Oppo site that I could find.
Take note that AVS Forum has a DVD Player forum. ;)

"Let's get with it guys. Where's the info on the new Oppo 970H?" (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=619439)

Where is everyone getting this info on a new Oppo player? There is no mention of a new player on the Oppo site that I could find.

This is avsforum we try to be ahead of the websites at all times. Anything is allowed to convince the online designers of products to devulge their information :)

Daniel.

I've just upgraded my VP30 to 1.06 in hopes of taking care of an HDMI issue with my Denon DVD-3910. Unfortunately yhe issue persists: When I try to use the HDMI output from the 3910 the video displayed is perfect for 1-2 seconds, blanks, then perfect for 1-2 seconds, blanks, etc. It is as if the HDCP handshake was repeating over and over again and disrupting the scaler.

Does anyone else have a DVD-3910 connected via HDMI? If so, what 3910 software version are you using?

No I do not, but I am using 1.06 with a pair of SA8300HD on HDMI inputs and am having very few (almost none) problems. I believe DVDO (Josh) has acknowledged that there is still may be a problem with the HDMI handshake, and I think I see it occasionaly (every few days).

Looking for information from any/all DVDO iScan-VP30 owners that have the (optional) SDI input.

How or where did you get your processor modified?

On the DVDO web site, there is only one "SDI input" installation guide and it's for both the iScan HD/HD+ processors. Can this guide be used for the VP30?

Thanks,

Paul

The installation of the SDI input module is exactly the same as the HD and HD+. The only exception is that you do not need to install the standofs for the input module as they are already installed in the VP30. This was done to simplify things for those transferring their SDI inputs from their HD/HD+ to their VP30.

I had my Denon 3910 modded with a Pixel Magic sdi mod and then connected to the VP-30. I have compared the sdi to the component and to be honest I didn't see a huge difference on my 65" RPTV. I have been told that with some players there can be quite a big difference. For $600, I wish I could see a big difference.

Hi Josh,

do you know if there will be a another revision soon with the firmware for the VP30 addressing audio issues with HDMI?

Thanks....

I hope this is the right forum for this question. I'm now considering having my Oppo DVD player modified for a SDI output and tonight I ordered the SDI option for my iScan HD+. I wanted to know if anyone here has had this done by JVB Digital and if so how did it work out for you?
http://www.jvbdigital.com/jvb.asp?cur=2&level=dvdplayers&page=title&title=327
I remmember reading somewhere that an owner was having issues with his OPPO SDI mod with his Lumagen .... it worked fine via the DVI before...... sorry I can't remember where I read it, it coul have been at the UK AVforum..... worth to check before you do the mod.

Cheers,

Marcelo

I remmember reading somewhere that an owner was having issues with his OPPO SDI mod with his Lumagen .... it worked fine via the DVI before...... sorry I can't remember where I read it, it coul have been at the UK AVforum..... worth to check before you do the mod.

Cheers,

Marcelo

All I can do is hope I don't have problems but I won't know that until I get the player back in about a week or so. Also get this tonight I discover that I could have done the mod myself for one half the price using the SDI kit from here http://www.pixelmagicsystems.com/products/sdi/bt656pro.htm

I wanted to share my experiences using a Mac to upgrade my VP30.

I was able to successfully upgrade the firmware the other day without any problems using the following configuration:
-Macintosh G4 Quicksilver
-Virtual PC 7.02 running Windows XP
-USB-Serial Adapter using the FTDI chip as recommended by DVDO (connected to VP30 by DVDO-supplied serial cable). Specifically I used the USBGEAR USBG-232-MM.
-FTDI VCP Driver 1.0.2176

Follow the instructions for updating the VP30, as given on the website, carefully.

TIPS: USB Adapter will probably be assigned to COM3 port in VPC if there are no other serial devices connected, so check the Windows Control Panel settings before setting up Tera Term Pro. I configured only the Serial port settings in the Control Panel according to the settings from the iScan HD+ software update instructions (with the exception of changing the Port from COM1 to COM3). Also, I installed only the Windows drivers for the adapter and not the Macintosh drivers to avoid any possible conflicts.

The installation of the SDI input module is exactly the same as the HD and HD+. The only exception is that you do not need to install the standofs for the input module as they are already installed in the VP30. This was done to simplify things for those transferring their SDI inputs from their HD/HD+ to their VP30.

Also if the sdi card comes with software (i think it did at some point) don't install it !, its for the HD only.

Daniel.

All I can do is hope I don't have problems but I won't know that until I get the player back in about a week or so. Also get this tonight I discover that I could have done the mod myself for one half the price using the SDI kit from here http://www.pixelmagicsystems.com/products/sdi/bt656pro.htm

There has been a reported issue with SDI OPPO and SiI504 based scalers (both DVDO & Lum), I think it only effects PAL disks and is something to do with signals being out of spec and that either the de-int or SDI chips used in these scalers being more strick then others.

Otherwise I probably would have bought one by now. :rolleyes:

The modders seem to hope that it's related to the 'out of spec' DVI signals from PAL discs which OPPO are working on but that is apparently fixed on most displays now by the current firmware but not enough for the SDI mods.

Obviously being a mod it's not going to be high on OPPO fix list so I'm waiting to hear the reports on the 970 HDMI model, which hopefully will work. It may not bypass as much internals as a SDI mod but with the same good decoder should be close for the money! (Doesn't have the same scaler as the 971 so could be cheaper too.)

Just a FWIW - installed 1.05 last nite. Couldn't have been easier, once I got to the serial port on my pc. Had to redo inputs, as warned - only scary part was no picture at all after upgrade. Luckily, I looked at the LED screen of the VP, changed the output from default digital to analog, and viola, my picture came back. Will remember that next time. :)

After upgrade, had more audio dropouts on OTA HD, but no way of knowing if that was OTA fault or the VP; haven't seen any other problems. Will go searching for bugs I had before, see if they are eliminated. Thanks to DVDO for making this so transparently simple.

Josh@DVDO,

Are you still expecting to release pricing information on the new ABT SD deinterlacing option for the VP30 this week? I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in this upgrade...

Big Marcelo, I just wanted to give you a shout real quick :)

AVS doesn't allow gear listed in your sig, just givin you a little heads up before the mods yell at you ;)

-Gary

Josh@DVDO,

Are you still expecting to release pricing information on the new ABT SD deinterlacing option for the VP30 this week? I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in this upgrade...

On this note this seems to be the perfect chip for upscaling dvd players want to tell us which brands will release players using this chip soon.

Daniel.

Dale,

I remember early on that Josh mentioned the VP30 doesn't presently accept a 1080p input signal but that there was nothing in the hardware to prevent it (i.e. it could be done with a firmware upgrade later.)

Along those lines, a related question....does the VP30 have the horsepower to process a 1080p24 HDMI input signal to either 720p60 or 1080p60? It should be a pretty straightforward framerate conversion and possible downscaling since you'd be 110% sure that your input signal is film-based, right?!?

I'm asking because Blu-ray movies are supposed to be mastered on-disc at 1080p24, and some of the players (I think) are supposed to support that as one possible output format as well. It seems to me it would be ideal to send the original on-disc framerate to the VP30 and let it do the (hopefully simple) FRC and downscaling, while maintaining the rest of our display settings we've already configured. And I'd probably trust y'all to do a better job downscaling to 720p than any of the player mfgs.

Just a thought at least.

-John

I read the following in a just-released review of the VP30 by Greg Rogers in Widescreen Review.

**********

As I was finishing this review, I was informed that the VP30 would soon include new 480i (576i) deinterlacing developed in-house by ABT. The SIL504 will be replaced by an ABT daughtercard that provides standard definition inverse-telecine and motion-adaptive deinterlacing with edge-adaptive directional interpolation. I saw a short demonstration of this new deinterlacing at the CES show in early January, and it was quite impressive.
According to ABT its new deinterlacer features 5-field motion-adaptive deinterlacing with edge-adaptive processing to remove jaggies on diagonal edges. It also includes arbitrary cadence detection to detect non-standard cadences. . . .
The. . .new deinterlacer is expected to ship in March. The ABT deinterlacer daughtercard will be available for a limited time as a user-installable upgrade at a special price of $199, after which it will be priced at $499.

************

Can DVDO confirm the information contained in this with regard to features, availability, and pricing?

The. . .new deinterlacer is expected to ship in March. The ABT deinterlacer daughtercard will be available for a limited time as a user-installable upgrade at a special price of $199, after which it will be priced at $499.
I am sooooo there if the special price is true. :eek: :D :D :D

I remember early on that Josh mentioned the VP30 doesn't presently accept a 1080p input signal but that there was nothing in the hardware to prevent it (i.e. it could be done with a firmware upgrade later.)

Along those lines, a related question....does the VP30 have the horsepower to process a 1080p24 HDMI input signal to either 720p60 or 1080p60? It should be a pretty straightforward framerate conversion and possible downscaling since you'd be 110% sure that your input signal is film-based, right?!?
There are at least 2 potential issues here. The first is whether all the video processing paths have the bandwidth to handle a 1080p signal. I'd guess that this is not a problem based on the VP30's ability to handle higher bandwidth input signals (i.e., 1080i and 720p) and output a 1080p60 signal. The second issue is whether the frame buffers that the VP30 uses for frame rate conversion and aspect ratio conversion can handle a 1080p-sized image. I don't know the answer to that. I'm pretty sure that if they currently do not, it would be a matter of a relatively minor logic change in one of the VP30's FPGAs to make this work, but I don't know whether the current hardware configuration can do it.

There might also be an issue with pulling the 1080p frames out of frame buffer memory fast enough to support a 60 Hz output rate, but I don't know for sure about that either. Sorry I couldn't be of more help, but I'm just not that familiar with certain aspects of the VP30 internal processing capabilities.

- Dale Adams

Originally Posted by TomHuffman
The. . .new deinterlacer is expected to ship in March. The ABT deinterlacer daughtercard will be available for a limited time as a user-installable upgrade at a special price of $199, after which it will be priced at $499.

I am sooooo there if the special price is true. :eek: :D :D :D
Sign me up. :)

I read the following in a just-released review of the VP30 by Greg Rogers in Widescreen Review.

**********

As I was finishing this review, I was informed that the VP30 would soon include new 480i (576i) deinterlacing developed in-house by ABT. The SIL504 will be replaced by an ABT daughtercard that provides standard definition inverse-telecine and motion-adaptive deinterlacing with edge-adaptive directional interpolation. I saw a short demonstration of this new deinterlacing at the CES show in early January, and it was quite impressive.
According to ABT its new deinterlacer features 5-field motion-adaptive deinterlacing with edge-adaptive processing to remove jaggies on diagonal edges. It also includes arbitrary cadence detection to detect non-standard cadences. . . .
The. . .new deinterlacer is expected to ship in March. The ABT deinterlacer daughtercard will be available for a limited time as a user-installable upgrade at a special price of $199, after which it will be priced at $499.

************

Can DVDO confirm the information contained in this with regard to features, availability, and pricing?

These are the features:

•SD(480i/576i) Source, Motion and Edge Adaptive Deinterlacer
o Five-field motion adaptive deinterlacing
o Edge adaptive processing to produce smooth diagonal edges
o Three frame video processing delay (Max)
o Game Modes with very low latency (sub-1 frame delay)
• Arbitrary cadence detection (any:any) to detect non-standard cadences in input signals.
o Reliable 2:2 pull-down detection for 50Hz countries
o Detection of 2:2 to/from 3:2 crossfades and out of phase 3:2 crossfades
o Detection of multiple source types within a frame for example video titles over film
o Bad edit detection and compensation to minimize artifacts caused by sequence breaks in film content

This is the availability:

Late April

And, YES, this is the pricing

Special price of $199, after which it will be priced at $499

One thing that I would like to clear up is that this upgrade is ONLY available as user/dealer-installable upgrade. We have no plans to come out with a version of the VP30 with this card installed.

So when I get a unit next week if it has firmware 1.05 how important is it that I get 1.06? I do not plan to use the unit for audio switching (well I may experiment with the H20 since OTA HD broadcasts seem to be off sometimes). But other than that I would use it for all the HDMI inputs and either send the out thru my TX1000 or straight to the pJ...I am looking forward to being able to add a little color thru the HDMI inputs since my pj does not have basic color adjustments via DVI...

Big Marcelo, I just wanted to give you a shout real quick :)

AVS doesn't allow gear listed in your sig, just givin you a little heads up before the mods yell at you ;)

-Gary
thanks very much Gary,

Will change that now... I'm active in the forums in Australia and a little in the UK ... a newbie in the AVS one...

thanks again,

Marcelo

This is the availability:

Late April

And, YES, this is the pricing

Special price of $199, after which it will be priced at $499

One thing that I would like to clear up is that this upgrade is ONLY available as user/dealer-installable upgrade. We have no plans to come out with a version of the VP30 with this card installed.

Is there, or will there be a way to get on a pre-order list for this?

...and will I be able to get the special price from dealers in the UK or do I need to order it direct from DVDO?

Great price by the way! ;)

thanks very much Gary,

Will change that now... I'm active in the forums in Australia and a little in the UK ... a newbie in the AVS one...

thanks again,

Marcelo


you are welcome

-Gary

"These are the features:

•SD(480i/576i) Source, Motion and Edge Adaptive Deinterlacer
o Five-field motion adaptive deinterlacing
o Edge adaptive processing to produce smooth diagonal edges
o Three frame video processing delay (Max)
o Game Modes with very low latency (sub-1 frame delay)
• Arbitrary cadence detection (any:any) to detect non-standard cadences in input signals.
o Reliable 2:2 pull-down detection for 50Hz countries
o Detection of 2:2 to/from 3:2 crossfades and out of phase 3:2 crossfades
o Detection of multiple source types within a frame for example video titles over film
o Bad edit detection and compensation to minimize artifacts caused by sequence breaks in film content"

You know I don't understand any of the above. :) I assume it all adds up to a better up-scaled picture for the end user of a VP30, am I correct in that assumption?

Hai,

Yes this means a better picture on SD sources. Infact it removed one of the weaker points of this scaler. If you use search you will see many people upset over the use of the SI504 at the time of release so many people will now be happy with this cheap upgrade.

I for one am having a good friday over this and thank dvdo for the $199 price level that makes it very doable for us even if we expect to upgrade to the vp40* once it gets released. I do think the fact that you don't expect to release a vp30 with this default to be a big hint we will see a new product soon if that is not the case it seems kind of weird to not have it as a factory installed option.

Greetings,

Daniel.

J
After upgrade, had more audio dropouts on OTA HD, but no way of knowing if that was OTA fault or the VP; haven't seen any other problems. Will go searching for bugs I had before, see if they are eliminated. Thanks to DVDO for making this so transparently simple.

I have upgraded 1.00->1.03->1.06 and have always had audio dropouts when using the VP30 as an audio router. Funny thing is that I never experienced the squeels and sqeeks that others did. Unlike a lot of people in the forum I bought the VP30 for both its audio and video capabilities and to me the product is still not delivering bacause of the audio side.

I have tried but found it impossible to discover a trend with the audio dropouts. It happens on all my coax and optical inputs that range from 576i/50 to 1080i/60 video signals and can happen two in 5 minutes and then nothing for 3-4 hours. All I know is that its damn annoying and goes away completely when the VP30 is bypassed direct to the processor. Of one thing I am 100% certain is that it is the VP30 causing the problem. Another thing I have noticed is that with each new version of the software its taking longer and longer to lock on to an audio format change which is not good.

I have raised the audio issue a few times with Tim@DVDO but am starting to get the impression that they either dont see this as a serious problem or dont have a clue whats causing it and both scenarios are worrying me a lot. I am also based in the UK and dont have the convenience of getting on the phone and complaining every day. Email is my only real option and to be fair the replies from DVDO have been scarce and usually not very imformative about the progress of the problem.

So enough complaining now. To help DVDO out I would ask other users who are also experiencing dropouts to please post on the forum. I know there are audio dissapearance problems with HDMI but my system doesnt yet have any HDMI inputs so thats not the problem I am referring to. Can users who use the coax and optical inputs and who are experiencing dropouts during normal viewiing (i.e. a half second mute) please post about it.

Thanks

My HT system uses Component video plus Coaxial Audio for all inputs that are not HDMI. The component inputs include the two DVD Megachangers, Sony PS2 playstation, Roku Photobridge HD1000 media player. I have not seen audio drop outs on any of these devices running through the VP30 on Audio3 (One of the digital coaxial inputs). The Roku HD1000 is used to play music in the Theater if I am in a music as opposed to movie mood. Its output is digital coaxial audio and produces DTS, and PCM files. The DVD players produce DTS and DD 5.1 files among others. I do not recall any audio dropouts on these systems, only with the HDMI inputs (audio and video on the same cable). When I see audio dropouts on the HDMI inputs (DVR's from the cable company) it is often (but not always) accompanied by video pixelation indicating IMHO a problem before the VP30.

Is there a preorder list for this new deinterlacer or we just purchase it online when it becomes available? How easy is it to install?

Special price of $199, after which it will be priced at $499

One thing that I would like to clear up is that this upgrade is ONLY available as user/dealer-installable upgrade. We have no plans to come out with a version of the VP30 with this card installed.

Does the installation require any soldering, or is it a simple snap-in install like the SDI module?

Is there a preorder list for this new deinterlacer or we just purchase it online when it becomes available? How easy is it to install?

Open box, plug it in the place/slot near the SI504 chip and close the box again. Easer than installing the SDI card.

Daniel.

Josh, I think DVDO should start taking orders based on this forum. After all we are the guys who help you all the time by complaining and sometimes suggesting. Once in a while we even give out a Kudo!

At $199 and a 30 day moneyback guarantee I can't see any reason not to get this.

If DVDO would allow me to drive by their Campbell HQ (?) and pay in cash for new deinterlacer, I'd take a day off to do just that. Maybe we can have an AVS Video Processor Forum gathering inside. :D

Josh,

Great news on the upgrade! Please let us know when the ordering URL is up and if we need any "secret AVS codes" to get the initial price!!

-John

I put 1.06 last night on a VP30, and try to store on profile 10, for no real reason other than because its there. But I cannot get any profile to stick past 4. Like if I store profile one, then something different for 5, when I go too one it changes. But when I go back too 5 nothing happens, its like the unit either never reads profile 5 as being there or just copies whatever the last one I used.

Also, I cannot seem to get the vertical shift to store at all on any profile. I'll try it again later when I have more time, maybe reset it or something. I turned it in as a bug though.

After going to 1.05 when channeling channels on the satellite receiver I lose audio, its a random thing. What I usually have to do to get it back is hold down the channel up or down button, changing channels fast, then the audio comes back. I have no idea if 1.06 deals with that problem or not. I'm just using digital toslink in.

When I see audio dropouts on the HDMI inputs (DVR's from the cable company) it is often (but not always) accompanied by video pixelation indicating IMHO a problem before the VP30.

Hi Barry, most of my regular viewing is Sky via a Sky+ PVR using optical output. I have watched closely for any pixellation issues indicating Sky freezing up momentarily but havent noticed anything. As I said earlier the dropouts do go away when the VP30 is bypassed.

For Sky most of the programs are in standard PCM with a movie usually in 5.1. I have also experienced dropouts on my DVD player -Tag DVD32 - 576i/50 via coax. Since most of my viewing is Region 2 PAL material I am wondering if this is a PAL related 50 hz issue???? I leave my HDMI output for 50hz as unlocked so the VP30 is doing some number crunching for PAL source material. Or maybe I just have a duff VP30 :-(

ANyone else in PAL land notice any problems with audio drops?

Well I just sent my Oppo player out for SDI
Just bought the modified Oppo SDI from JVB Digital.com myself.

There has been a reported issue with SDI OPPO and SiI504 based scalers (both DVDO & Lum), I think it only effects PAL disks and is something to do with signals being out of spec and that either the de-int or SDI chips used in these scalers being more strick then others.

The SIL504 will be replaced by an ABT daughtercard

Hope this will make the Oppo SDI reported issue problem with the SiI504 a mute issue.:rolleyes:

Paul

hmuller , I have the same set up and problems as yourself. Minor drop outs in Audio for a second. I am only using Coax and optical inputs/ optical output to a Denon Amp.

My other Audio issue is that changing channels on SKY+ drops the Audio output setting in the Amp. The VP30 must switch off it's Audio output requiring me to reset the amp for DD for example every channel change. I have upgraded from an HD+ and I never had this problem. It's annoying but I'm learning to live with it.

Any other SKY+ users see these problems ?.

My comments on 1.06 software:

- Display profiles 5-10 doesn't work, like previously reported.
- Maybe slightly faster audio recognition than 1.03, but still very slow. No other audio related problems, just like before.
- Blue led turns off, but it takes 20 seconds or so to turn off and turns on everytime I do something with the remote. If I remember correctly, in HD/HD+ the front led was turned of instantly for example when exiting the menu, this would be a great feature for the VP30 also.
- Running stable, no glitches whatsoever.

ANyone else in PAL land notice any problems with audio drops?I watch mainly NTSC, but haven't had ANY audio drop outs with any material, including PAL dvd's.

I have been searching for info on the VP40...and very unsuccessfully I might add. :confused:

Can anyone steer me in the right direction?

Thanx.

I wanted to share my experiences using a Mac to upgrade my VP30.

I was able to successfully upgrade the firmware the other day without any problems using the following configuration:
-Macintosh G4 Quicksilver
-Virtual PC 7.02 running Windows XP
-USB-Serial Adapter using the FTDI chip as recommended by DVDO (connected to VP30 by DVDO-supplied serial cable). Specifically I used the USBGEAR USBG-232-MM.
-FTDI VCP Driver 1.0.2176

Follow the instructions for updating the VP30, as given on the website, carefully.

TIPS: USB Adapter will probably be assigned to COM3 port in VPC if there are no other serial devices connected, so check the Windows Control Panel settings before setting up Tera Term Pro. I configured only the Serial port settings in the Control Panel according to the settings from the iScan HD+ software update instructions (with the exception of changing the Port from COM1 to COM3). Also, I installed only the Windows drivers for the adapter and not the Macintosh drivers to avoid any possible conflicts.

Thanks for posting your experience upgrading using a Mac. I've held off so far as I haven't had any glaring bugs present themselves. I have successfully used my Mac using VirtualPC7.02/XP Pro and a USB-to-Serial adapter (Belkin I think) to load maps onto my Garmin GPS, so I'll check my com port config and I'm hoping it'll go smooth.

One thing for the DVDO folks...is it a must to upgrade to the latest software before the new SD scaler module is installed (i.e. will there be a further software update upon its release as I expect)? If so, and as I'm not having issues currently, I might just wait and upgrade once then.

Hi Barry, most of my regular viewing is Sky via a Sky+ PVR using optical output. I have watched closely for any pixellation issues indicating Sky freezing up momentarily but havent noticed anything. As I said earlier the dropouts do go away when the VP30 is bypassed.

For Sky most of the programs are in standard PCM with a movie usually in 5.1. I have also experienced dropouts on my DVD player -Tag DVD32 - 576i/50 via coax. Since most of my viewing is Region 2 PAL material I am wondering if this is a PAL related 50 hz issue???? I leave my HDMI output for 50hz as unlocked so the VP30 is doing some number crunching for PAL source material. Or maybe I just have a duff VP30 :-(

ANyone else in PAL land notice any problems with audio drops?
I have used ever model of DVDO scaler since iScan Pro, and with VP30 (or any other iScan scaler with audio delay) I have to report none of the issues you are listing with Sky+ optical output; works sweet as a nut here. I don't have any HDMI input signals though.

Do you get the Sky+ drop out problem when HDMI DVD player is disconnected?

StooMonster

I have been searching for info on the VP40...and very unsuccessfully I might add. :confused:

Can anyone steer me in the right direction?
It is a speculated product, mostly rumored in this thread, never officially commented on by DVDO.

StooMonster

I have been searching for info on the VP40...and very unsuccessfully I might add. :confused:

Can anyone steer me in the right direction?

Thanx.
You're in the best spot to find info, when it's available, right here in this thread or the VP forum itself.

"One thing that I would like to clear up is that this upgrade is ONLY available as user/dealer-installable upgrade. We have no plans to come out with a version of the VP30 with this card installed.

__________________
Josh Allen
DVDO/Powered by ABT "

Might this mean that there could be a "lower-priced" VP in the works designed around this new ABT de-interlacer ? :rolleyes:

Scott.................... :D

It is a speculated product, mostly rumored in this thread, never officially commented on by DVDO.

StooMonster

I added a * to the vp40 name should have been clear :).

btw just because dvdo refuses to comment on our virtual vp40 product doesn't mean we will stop working on it. I expect all forum members to continue working on their parts and report back to me in the next thread page.

Daniel.

I have upgraded 1.00->1.03->1.06 and have always had audio dropouts when using the VP30 as an audio router. Funny thing is that I never experienced the squeels and sqeeks that others did. Unlike a lot of people in the forum I bought the VP30 for both its audio and video capabilities and to me the product is still not delivering bacause of the audio side.

I have tried but found it impossible to discover a trend with the audio dropouts. It happens on all my coax and optical inputs that range from 576i/50 to 1080i/60 video signals and can happen two in 5 minutes and then nothing for 3-4 hours. All I know is that its damn annoying and goes away completely when the VP30 is bypassed direct to the processor. Of one thing I am 100% certain is that it is the VP30 causing the problem. Another thing I have noticed is that with each new version of the software its taking longer and longer to lock on to an audio format change which is not good.

I have raised the audio issue a few times with Tim@DVDO but am starting to get the impression that they either dont see this as a serious problem or dont have a clue whats causing it and both scenarios are worrying me a lot. I am also based in the UK and dont have the convenience of getting on the phone and complaining every day. Email is my only real option and to be fair the replies from DVDO have been scarce and usually not very imformative about the progress of the problem.

So enough complaining now. To help DVDO out I would ask other users who are also experiencing dropouts to please post on the forum. I know there are audio dissapearance problems with HDMI but my system doesnt yet have any HDMI inputs so thats not the problem I am referring to. Can users who use the coax and optical inputs and who are experiencing dropouts during normal viewiing (i.e. a half second mute) please post about it.

Thanks

I have between 2 and 3 very brief audio dropouts with every film I watch using HDMI input for my Oppo with DVI out using DVI to HDMI cable. Also get the same dropouts using DVI out of my Samsung HD tuner. I have not had any of the other audio problems discussed. Have tried switching HDMI inputs and switching between coaxial and toslink and nothing seems to matter.

I've had no problems with my Panasonic RP-91 using SDI.

I'm still using the original 1.00 firmware and though I've downloaded the other firmwares, I have not bothered to install them since I keep hearing that the audio problems have not gone away. I will probably install 1.06 once it's out of beta.

The only other problem I've had with the VP30 (since upgrading the IR receiver) is occasional lockup, where the VP30 will keep playing whatever I'm watching but I can't access the VP30 menu or shut the unit off until I first unplug it. This has only happened 3 or maybe 4 times.

Might this mean that there could be a "lower-priced" VP in the works designed around this new ABT de-interlacer ? :rolleyes:



That is why I started to meditate on the VP40...if it is just around the corner, maybe hold off on the VP30??
Yeah, I know, always something better on the way. :D
I am not one of those that is forever waiting though...

One thing for the DVDO folks...is it a must to upgrade to the latest software before the new SD scaler module is installed (i.e. will there be a further software update upon its release as I expect)? If so, and as I'm not having issues currently, I might just wait and upgrade once then.

The new chip will come with a new firmware which can be applied before fitting the board. The firmware will auto detect the new chip and switch to that mode when it's installed so you should be able to do A:B testing by just pulling and pushing the new board on.

There'll be different menu options when the board is fitted.

At least this was Dales' understanding of it as posted on the UK forums, final production procedure maybe different of course.

The new chip will come with a new firmware which can be applied before fitting the board. The firmware will auto detect the new chip and switch to that mode when it's installed so you should be able to do A:B testing by just pulling and pushing the new board on.

There'll be different menu options when the board is fitted.

At least this was Dales' understanding of it as posted on the UK forums, final production procedure maybe different of course.

This is correct, although we do not recommend unplugging and replugging the board repeatedly as this will put unneceessary wear on the connector.

This is correct, although we do not recommend unplugging and replugging the board repeatedly as this will put unneceessary wear on the connector.

Indeed! ;)

Or while the unit is powered! :D

I'd probably just do the firmware, run a couple of tests with different sources then power off and install the board and finally repeat the tests.

Josh, will we be able to get the introductionary offer in the UK or do we need to order direct from DVDO? I might try to get the lens and sdi upgrades at the same time, to save poping the lid again.

Josh, will we be able to get the introductionary offer in the UK or do we need to order direct from DVDO? I might try to get the lens and sdi upgrades at the same time, to save poping the lid again.

Ive placed the same question at the dutch dvdo contact, since this upgrade also seems to make alot of sense for pal users. For me the same way the hd+ -> vp30 upgrade was done worked fine.

Daniel.

Add me to the list of forum members that would like to see a powerbuy on this new upgrade board. I feel we are as valuable to DVDO as their presence is to us on these forums. If anyone deserves a break on these boards its all of us that constantly upgrade to new firmware, report all issues and help DVDO improve their products which in turn benefits all parties involved.

And, YES, this is the pricing

Special price of $199, after which it will be priced at $499

One thing that I would like to clear up is that this upgrade is ONLY available as user/dealer-installable upgrade. We have no plans to come out with a version of the VP30 with this card installed.
In effect we already have a power-buy, your reasons could be why DVDO are offering this upgrade for a limited time at $199 and not it's full retail price of $499.

From what Josh says at the end of his post I've quoted, I take that to mean there will be no standalone VP30+ product ... although I bet people start calling their upgraded models the VP30+ simply to differential from regular VP30 with original SiI504 installed.

StooMonster

I also would like to get in line for the upgrade :D

Add me to the list of the upgrade!

Will the firmware with the new chip be an add on to the current firmware we are using? That way I can stick with v1.00 which is the only firmware that works for me so far.

Will the firmware with the new chip be an add on to the current firmware we are using? That way I can stick with v1.00 which is the only firmware that works for me so far.

I'd guess it'll be a full 1.07/08 release as there are new menu options.

Josh, have there been any different revisions of the SDI module? (Looking for one in the UK and just want to make sure it's current, apparently the OPPO bug has been sorted! (needs an updated board/mod)).

apparently the OPPO bug has been sorted! (needs an updated board/mod)

ailean,

Being new to "video processor" equipment, I've ordered the VP30 and ordered the modified Oppo SDI from JVB Digital.com, for SDI connectivity.
Naturally, I am interested in the latest information on this subject.
As I understand it, the reported issue is with SDI OPPO and the DVDO VP30 SiI504 based scaler. Correct?
If this is the case and the SIL504 will be bypassed with the new ABT daughtercard, would an "updated SDI board/mod" be necessary?

Also, in my situation, I only use NTSC DVD's and I understand this is an issue only when PAL discs are used?

Thanks for any information you, or anyone else can offer.

Paul

It's a bit technical but have a read here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7329666#post7329666).

Basically if this is correct it appears some alterations to the normal OPPO mod are required to get the correct output, which then should work with any scaler including the VP30.

So if you haven't recieved your modded OPPO yet get in touch with those doing the mod and make sure they are aware of the above post.

I've passed it to one of the UK modders in hope that he can varify it works as he has some DVDO/Lum customers that have been waiting for a fix.

But yes from those I've heard who have used the previous mods NTSC discs seemed to work okay but it's worth getting the fix if you can.

(As the new de-int isn't out yet there's no way to check if it helps with this issue, would be nice if DVDO could test these out as the OPPO is a very popular SDI player at the moment! )

I was just going to wait for the HDMI OPPO but as I may end up having to use the VP30 RGBHV outputs until a HDMI 1:2 switch appears I'll need to avoid HDCP in my 480i/576i inputs.

Add me to the list of the upgrade

A question about the deinterlacer upgrade. The current deinterlacer seems to be good for film based sources, but not so good for video sources. Will the upgrade improve both, or does it only improve video sources? I will probably buy one at the great introductory price anyway, just curious what to expect.

Add me to the upgrade list also :)

If there is a list being compiled for the upgrade, please add my name.

The new chip will come with a new firmware which can be applied before fitting the board. The firmware will auto detect the new chip and switch to that mode when it's installed so you should be able to do A:B testing by just pulling and pushing the new board on.

There'll be different menu options when the board is fitted.

At least this was Dales' understanding of it as posted on the UK forums, final production procedure maybe different of course.

Thanks (and thanks to Josh for the confirmation). I'll sit tight until the board comes out and do the firmware update then.

Basically if this is correct it appears some alterations to the normal OPPO mod are required to get the correct output, which then should work with any scaler including the VP30.

So if you haven't recieved your modded OPPO yet get in touch with those doing the mod and make sure they are aware of the above post.
ailean,
The in-house mods done by JVB (US) and crtprojectors (UK) for the Oppo will work just fine on the Lumagen and VP30, for NTSC. I understand there still may be some PAL issues with these processors and others using the Sil504, though. Unknown (to me) if it's totally an SDI board/mod issue or a configuration issue on the Sil.

--Bill

please add me to the upgrade list also ..... cheers!

ailean,
The in-house mods done by JVB (US) and crtprojectors (UK) for the Oppo will work just fine on the Lumagen and VP30, for NTSC. I understand there still may be some PAL issues with these processors and others using the Sil504, though. Unknown (to me) if it's totally an SDI board/mod issue or a configuration issue on the Sil.

--Bill

Thanks Bill, yeah this is about the gist of what Henry has told me, arrgg, nothing is easy in the AV world. ;)

Can't get told of the latest firmware for my A11 to see if it fixes some disc issues.

Can't get an SDI OPPO as a 2nd player cos it won't play half my discs.

Can't get the HDMI OPPO cos it's not out.

Can't get a 1:2 HDMI Switch so I can use TV & PJ without HDCP issues.

Can't get a HD MediaBox as it doesn't do 480i/576i HDMI (and SDI with a VP30 isn't confirmed yet).

Hopefully at least I'll be able to get the new de-int but it looks like I'm going to be forced to route everything as Component in order to get interlaced input and avoid HDCP disabling the RGBHV output to my TV. :rolleyes:

So much for calibrating the inputs, DVDO can I have some more Component sockets on the VP40? :)

Been testing that board for a little while.

So far so good!

Results are still in preliminary stages, but there's a tremendous difference between the new DL board (internal codename for the unit) and Sil504. They're not even in the same ballpark...

Been testing that board for a little while.

So far so good!

Results are still in preliminary stages, but there's a tremendous difference between the new DL board (internal codename for the unit) and Sil504. They're not even in the same ballpark...
Sounds good, thanks for the feedback!

What are your impressions on PAL support? Have you tested the new DL board with your PAL hard core tests yet?

Josh, have there been any different revisions of the SDI module? (Looking for one in the UK and just want to make sure it's current, apparently the OPPO bug has been sorted! (needs an updated board/mod)).
No there hasn't been any revisions, the same SDI board works with HD/HD+/VP30 models.

I am in UK and bought my SDI of some guy on eBay in USA for very cheap price. Simple to plug in, instructions are on DVDO.com and can even be swapped from HD to VP30 if you are upgrading.

StooMonster

Sounds good, thanks for the feedback!

What are your impressions on PAL support? Have you tested the new DL board with your PAL hard core tests yet?

I can't even stress how much i like this question :).

Daniel.

I assume when the new chip is ready that DVDO will notify the buyers of the VP30 by email when we will be able to order it.

madshi,

I have little time these days, so I'm ONLY doing PAL stress testing. So far, so great!

Add me to the list for the new VP30 board.

One "ignorant user" question--will the new board make a difference for regular or HD cable? What exact types of video inputs will be improved and how?

Thanks!

- Gerry

madshi,

I have little time these days, so I'm ONLY doing PAL stress testing. So far, so great!

Thanks for the info, great work i kind of expected you todo PAL testing first (makes sense) but we are like scared little kids we have to ask to be sure :).

Gerry: the deinterlacer works on SD only so SD to HD output or SD to SD output will be alot better. I few pages back i posted a coment from Dale on how it does on the HQV tests that will give you a idea what changed. Also josh posted some info that should be of value like the gaming mode.

Daniel.

I have little time these days, so I'm ONLY doing PAL stress testing. So far, so great!
Sounds very nice - and I'm glad DVDO decided to choose you as a beta tester. Would you mind dropping a few more detailed comments (if you're allowed to)? Most of us are probably very eager to hear more about your impressions - at least I am. Just two questions coming to my mind:

- How does video deinterlacing compare to good Faroudja based solutions (say Crystalio I)?
- Did you notice noticable improvements in film deinterlacing over SiI504?

Thanks very much!

(Btw, did you just change your avatar, or have I drunk too much coke?)

Can't get a 1:2 HDMI Switch so I can use TV & PJ without HDCP issues.

The Gefen 1x2 HDMI splitter doesn't work?

The Gefen 1x2 HDMI splitter doesn't work?

It's about the only thing out but I suspect that as only output 1 talks to the source (output 2 just mirrors 1) it might prove tricky to run only one at a time with different native rates. But yeah if I get desperate I'll have to give a go.

Add me to the Upgrade list (if such a thing exists!). Is there any news on International availability of the board - do we order through our local disti's or direct from DVDO?

Any 1 to n HDMI splitter with HDCP is in HDCP parlance a repeater (as is the VP30). If you really want to get confused just read the HDCP 1.1 spec (85 pages of jargon, definitions, state diagrams and timing diagrams). In my younger days I used to eat this stuff up, but now not so. Just don't have the desire (or need).

The Gefen device, not being a scaler, must pass on what it gets from the source with regard to resolution, and the source can not put out 2 different resolutions.

It must authenticate both displays for HDCP compliance, and it would be interesting if only one of the displays was HDCP compliant. Would it connect to the compliant one and blank the non compliant? Would it blank both?

If a display is turned off its compliance should not affect the repeater, but in todays world what is Off (as opposed to standby or an unmentioned standby).

One of the issues with the VP30 is the reverse. It must tell al connected HDMI devices about the display. Actually that is a simpler task as there is only one self consistent display. As I read (glancingly) the spec, it "re-authenticates" continuoustly during the vertical blanking period (a holdover from the old analog world) at least once every 16 frames. This is so a non compliant unit can not be switched in. I amy be wrong in what I am saying, but then someone is sure to correct me on this board!.

I'd be definately interested in the upgrade as well.. Count me in :) as another one
on the list (if it exists).

I wonder how the upgraded chipset improvements would work with a analog
mosquito?

There seem to have been several questions about what exactly the add-on board does. I haven't played with the board yet, but I'm quite excited about it. I'm actually more excited about this upgrade than the HD+ to VP30 upgrade.

"These are the features:
•SD(480i/576i) Source, Motion and Edge Adaptive Deinterlacer
o Five-field motion adaptive deinterlacing
o Edge adaptive processing to produce smooth diagonal edges


Edge adaptive deinterlacing is what originally set Faroujda's DCDi apart. Now ABT has leveled the playing field. These features should result in improved deinterlacing of SD video sources. Sharper edges, less combing. These features should allow the VP30 to pass the famous waving flag test. Film based sources should look similar to the Sil504.


o Three frame video processing delay (Max)
o Game Modes with very low latency (sub-1 frame delay)


Low processing latency. Game mode should please gamers who've complained about processing lag.


• Arbitrary cadence detection (any:any) to detect non-standard cadences in input signals.
o Reliable 2:2 pull-down detection for 50Hz countries


Improved handling of "odd" cadences. Animation should decode more reliably. PAL 2:2 detection should be much better.


o Detection of 2:2 to/from 3:2 crossfades and out of phase 3:2 crossfades
o Detection of multiple source types within a frame for example video titles over film
o Bad edit detection and compensation to minimize artifacts caused by sequence breaks in film content"


This should allow better deinterlacing of disparate sources mashed together by broadcast TV. Video mode overlays on film mode sources should be handled better. Cuts between film mode programming and video mode commercials (particularly poorly done cuts) should be handled better.


You know I don't understand any of the above. :) I assume it all adds up to a better up-scaled picture for the end user of a VP30, am I correct in that assumption?

In short, this is a big leap forward for the VP30's NTSC & PAL SD video deinterlacing. NTSC film mode should be roughly similar to the already stellar current hardware and PAL film mode detection should be improved.

- Collin

NTSC film mode should be roughly similar to the already stellar current hardware and PAL film mode detection should be improved.
Actually, NTSC mode is better as well. The 504 will comb on a number of bad edits that the new deinterlacer will not. (E.g., Stacey Spears turned me on to a music video ("Lean Low" by the Youngbloodz) which causes the 504 to comb a lot. I haven't seen the new deinterlacer comb once on this.) Also, the ability to track a variety of cadences will give you improved performance on animation.

If there are any questions (excepting sales and pricing type stuff) about the add-on deinterlacer board I'd be happy to answer them.

- Dale Adams

ok, so I've been waiting for the VP40. I missed the power buy for us AVSers for $750 with the HD+ trade in, so it'll cost me another $250 if I trade up now.

I don't want to have to pay 2 1/2 times for this next upgrade if I wait so....

Do I need to get a VP30 now and get the $199 upgrade, or should I wait for the VP40?

So only current owners of VP30s can have the SD upgrade for $199???

Do I need to get a VP30 now and get the $199 upgrade, or should I wait for the VP40?

Waiting for something that only exists on AVS Forum versus purchasing something which will be available within a month seems like an obvious decision to me.

The special price is only available for a limited time after the daughter card becomes available and only to those that are registered here:

http://www.dvdo.com/register/

As much as I'm dying to see DVDO's HD solution I can't imagine many companies letting you upgrade the most important part of it's product for anywhere near $500 let alone $200. If DVDO is willing to do this for its loyal customers I'm pretty sure they'd take care of us when the new processor comes out.

The special price is only available for a limited time after the daughter card becomes available and only to those that are registered here:

http://www.dvdo.com/register/

U mean will NOT be available through a reseller ? i.e. have to buy from DVDO directly ?

If there are any questions (excepting sales and pricing type stuff) about the add-on deinterlacer board I'd be happy to answer them.


Really appreciated Dale. Some quick Qs:
1) can u confirm the performance earlier quoted are indeed for this board ? ( i.e. wrt the HQV test results. sorry if it's really obvious.. just want to get a confirmation from DVDO guys)
2) PAL video: can we say it's substantially improved ? I had a HD+ before, on PAL SD material (basically OTA TV broadcast) it was not so gd. Combing is one thing, sometimes it's a bit soft.
3) PAL film with bad edits/authorings, mixed PAL film/video contents: A lot of (okay older) PAL dvds are badly authored, and with the old HD+ I find the image often soft, looks like occasionally it's unable to lock the film sequence. Does this new board improve on this as well ?

Thanks!

Any 1 to n HDMI splitter with HDCP is in HDCP parlance a repeater (as is the VP30). If you really want to get confused just read the HDCP 1.1 spec (85 pages of jargon, definitions, state diagrams and timing diagrams). In my younger days I used to eat this stuff up, but now not so. Just don't have the desire (or need).


Yeah it's all too complicated but then that's HDMI all over. ;)

Basicly from readings of Gefen forum issues it seems that only the display on output socket 1 ever responds to 'What res can you do?', 'What colour space can you do?', 'What audio formats can you do?' etc type questions from the source. The typical type of conversations that force the audio output of a Cable/Sat box to PCM stereo rather then DD 5.1 when the display says 'What's DD?'.

I'm not certain what conversations the VP30 gets involved in (especiacaly as they recently changed it's HDMI mode) so I can't be certain what will work here (I've got enough magic boxes that don't quite do what I need as it is :rolleyes: ).

However Gefen did point me in the way of a 1:4 DVI monitor switch with IR control that is HDCP complient, more expensive, no audio, probably RGB 444 only as it's DVI but should give a 1:1 connection to which ever display is selected. :confused:

I may just wait till I get the new HDMI TV (another dilema I won't go into here :) ) in case something better is available then.

Waiting for something that only exists on AVS Forum versus purchasing something which will be available within a month seems like an obvious decision to me.

Ahh it might only exist on avs forum but its near perfect as long as we keep it in this reality. ;)


edf: dvdo allways does nice upgrades, if the vp40* does come you can allways sell the sdi and dl-card if they won't return any value for it. Im sure alot of vp30 owners at that time will be happy to pay $199 for it since it will be $499 by then. Unlike the sdi card that you can probably move to the vp40* changes are small for the dl-card.

Daniel.

* Only exists in the AVSForum reality context,

I have used ever model of DVDO scaler since iScan Pro, and with VP30 (or any other iScan scaler with audio delay) I have to report none of the issues you are listing with Sky+ optical output; works sweet as a nut here. I don't have any HDMI input signals though.

Do you get the Sky+ drop out problem when HDMI DVD player is disconnected?

StooMonster

Hi StooMonster

I dont have any HDMI sources yet and with the audio problems on HDMI its probably a good thing. My first HDMI source will hopefully be the Sky HD+ box when its released hopefully next month. Last night I was watching 24 on XBMC on my xbox (720p/60 and optical input) and it dropped audio again. I rewinded aout 10 minutes and watched the scene again and no audio drop so it was not an the mpeg encoding flaw. I wish I knew why some people are having no problems and some of us are having this drop out issue. All I know is that it does seem to affect Denon and Tag AV32 processors. Are u using a coax or digital connection to your amp Stoo?

hmuller , I have the same set up and problems as yourself. Minor drop outs in Audio for a second. I am only using Coax and optical inputs/ optical output to a Denon Amp.

My other Audio issue is that changing channels on SKY+ drops the Audio output setting in the Amp. The VP30 must switch off it's Audio output requiring me to reset the amp for DD for example every channel change. I have upgraded from an HD+ and I never had this problem. It's annoying but I'm learning to live with it.

Any other SKY+ users see these problems ?.

Hi Jiveman,

At least I know its not just me and Im not going mad. Do u only get this on Sky or on other sources too like your DVD?

Are u using a coax or digital connection to your amp Stoo?
I use digital coax to my Arcam AV8, rather than digital optical. Coax has a higher bandwidth than optical.

StooMonster

Madshi,

I can talk about it once the official word is out (and it is).

A few points:
1. DL vs. DCDi is no contest to me in favor of DL. Angles are handled very well, and cadence detection is much superior, particularly for PAL (where DCDi supported pretty much as an after thought).

2. DL does still comb, but very rarely. I have a new PAL stress test sequence that causes DL to comb 4 times (Vs. 30+ times on Sil504).

3. Jaggy sources appear great, sports look great (soccer doesn't comb!!).

4. Film mode already worked great, the main difference is bad edits and very very rare combing (which I still see all the time with other systems).

The board is very easy to install, basically just putting in the connector and pressing down on the two holders.

Thanks Ofer, much appreciated!

Thanks Ofer for your reviews & insight!

Cheers,

Marcelo

Really appreciated Dale. Some quick Qs:
1) can u confirm the performance earlier quoted are indeed for this board ? ( i.e. wrt the HQV test results. sorry if it's really obvious.. just want to get a confirmation from DVDO guys)
2) PAL video: can we say it's substantially improved ? I had a HD+ before, on PAL SD material (basically OTA TV broadcast) it was not so gd. Combing is one thing, sometimes it's a bit soft.
3) PAL film with bad edits/authorings, mixed PAL film/video contents: A lot of (okay older) PAL dvds are badly authored, and with the old HD+ I find the image often soft, looks like occasionally it's unable to lock the film sequence. Does this new board improve on this as well ?
Some quick As:

1) Confirmed.

2 & 3) See Ofer's post. :D He lives in a PAL country so his experiences are going to be much more relevant than mine.

- Dale

Dale or probably Ofer might be able to answer this one.

When watching OTA PAL 576i50 I've noticed odd frame skips or screwy motion in parts of a frame, I'm currently running output unlocked to 59.xxx (my temp PC CRT can handle 50hz but I'm trying to simulate the issues I'll get if I can't find a new Flat TV that copes with 50Hz native rate) so I'd figured this was just FRC problems.

However after reading a lot of Dales' comments on what the new DI does it occurs to me that most of this could just be deinterlacing issues and that with the new DI in place the FRC should have a lot more smoother source to work off and give me a more consistent/better experience (all my TV, DVD, video, LD etc watching will be going thru the VP30 so any improvement will make life better ;) ).

Hai Dale,

Maybe some questions you can't reply to but i have to ask anyway, Sofar the news for has been great and im looking forward to watch your work.

1) Its only for SD, but your work shown at CES involved full HD does this mean we will see 2 chips ?. Or is it one design and somehow the vp30 is limiting what the chip can do ?

2) Somewhat related is it a real chip or a fpga, and can you share any techno info on it ?

Daniel.

Dale answered these questions on the UK forum already:

The FPGA used is too slow for HD. It's also a lot cheaper than the one you'd need for HD. We have a full HD deinterlacer working which includes all the features (and more) of the SD deinterlacer, as we demonstrated at CES in January.
http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2639629&postcount=25

madshi: kinda confusing in 2 threads on 2 forums but ill take it :). So its a fpga for SD and a real chip for the HD version seems like a good wat but then a new questions pops up for Dale.

1) Since its a fpga can we update it ? I could see a logic where you improve things based on feedback on the vp30+DL before the HD chip is made.

2) this seems the perfect chip for upscaling dvd players will this product be oem'ed to companies we know like say for example denon? Since the need for HD inside a upscaling
dvd player is overkill and this way chipcost are lower than the others in the market.

Daniel.

When watching OTA PAL 576i50 I've noticed odd frame skips or screwy motion in parts of a frame, I'm currently running output unlocked to 59.xxx (my temp PC CRT can handle 50hz but I'm trying to simulate the issues I'll get if I can't find a new Flat TV that copes with 50Hz native rate) so I'd figured this was just FRC problems.

However after reading a lot of Dales' comments on what the new DI does it occurs to me that most of this could just be deinterlacing issues and that with the new DI in place the FRC should have a lot more smoother source to work off and give me a more consistent/better experience (all my TV, DVD, video, LD etc watching will be going thru the VP30 so any improvement will make life better ;) ).
You may be seeing both the effects of frame rate conversion from 50 Hz to 60 Hz, as well as the SiI504 deinterlacer struggling a bit with 2:2 pulldown.

I certainly see motion stutter with this type of frame rate conversion, but it depends a lot on image content. Others I've talked to don't notice it as much.

The other problem you might be seeing is the 504 locking on to 2:2 even though the source is not 2:2. This will cause jerky/slow motion and may well look "screwy" if the 504 is dropping in and out of lock frequently. The new deinterlacer will help with this problem, but not the FRC issue as that's going to be the same. However, if you're seeing the deinterlacing problem being compounded by the FRC, then you may well notice a significant improvement.

- Dale Adams

2) Somewhat related is it a real chip or a fpga, and can you share any techno info on it ?
What sort of information were you interested in?

- Dale Adams

ok so I went to DVDO to order a VP30 and it is temporarily oversold.

If I backorder one, will I be eligible for the $199 upgrade?

I use digital coax to my Arcam AV8, rather than digital optical. Coax has a higher bandwidth than optical.

StooMonster

Me too. Was just checking if maybe it was a coax/optical issue maybe. What are you 50hz and 60hz settings Stoo? There are some people who think this may be a 50->60 hz conversion problem that causes the audio delay to glitch every now and then. I have 60hz - locked and 50hz unlocked at 59.94.

Waiting for something that only exists on AVS Forum versus purchasing something which will be available within a month seems like an obvious decision to me.

The special price is only available for a limited time after the daughter card becomes available and only to those that are registered here:

http://www.dvdo.com/register/

Josh, for those that have registered their product with DVDO, will there be some sort of email, or mailer, on this $199 promotion? I too want to put my name in the hat.

Thanks.

What sort of information were you interested in?

- Dale Adams

well ehmm ehmm by now most questions have been handled i guess or you can't reply on since you didn't make the board. Let me first thank you for the work you did for us folks in PAL countries. Some things i still wonder about (and that you skipped i guess)

Any changes we will see changes to the deinterlacer based on feedback ?, The board seems to have a rom that might be replaced to load the fpga. Or is the work on the deinterlacer done and have you moved on to new projects for the next gen. scaler.

Does the fpga have room left for more options in the future say noise reduction or any of the new features in the next gen ?

Did you in the end also look at the stress tests provided by oferlaor ? He seems happy with the results so would be nice to hear your take on it.

Daniel.

From Page 1:
This is the definitive spec sheet on the DVDO iScan VP30:

The iScan™ VP30 is a high-definition video processor and A/V hub that converts standard or high definition from your DVD player, VCR, PVR, HD set top box, game console, or PC to any output resolution between 480p and 1080p, including popular HDTV resolutions such as 720p and 1080i.

What is the difference between the VP30 and the talk of the next generations "full HD support" processor?

Confusing me here is that the above quote states the VP30 is a "high-definition video processor", and "converts high definition from your set top box to an output resolution of 1080P".

Is it able to take the HD 720P signal from my Samsung SIR-TS160 satellite receiver and convert it to 1080P?

Thanks,

Paul

From Page 1:


What is the difference between the VP30 and the talk of the next generations "full HD support" processor?

Confusing me here is that the above quote states the VP30 is a "high-definition video processor", and "converts high definition from your set top box to an output resolution of 1080P".

Is it able to take the HD 720P signal from my Samsung SIR-TS160 satellite receiver and convert it to 1080P?


Sure the iScan VP30 can do this. The "Full HD Support" that I believe you are referring to is the ability to deinterlace a 1080i signal. The iScan VP30 can process a 1080i signal now using field scaling.

The special price is only available for a limited time after the daughter card becomes available and only to those that are registered here:

http://www.dvdo.com/register/

I believe I registered, but can't remember. Is there any way to check that before I disconnect all my wires and pull the VP30 out of my equipment rack to get the serial number?

I believe I registered, but can't remember. Is there any way to check that before I disconnect all my wires and pull the VP30 out of my equipment rack to get the serial number?
Do you still have the original box? There is a sticker placed outside the box on one of the corners that appears to have the serial number. Does the serial number start with "ISCANVP30"?

Dale, I'll tell you what my test for the new deinterlacer will be: the Star Wars "Definitive Collection" laserdiscs. There's something screwy with the mastering of those LDs that causes both Silicon Image and Faroudja deinterlacers to drop into Video mode for the duration of the movie, leading to lots of shimmer and combing, even when trying to force a film bias. I think this may have something to do with the excessive noise reduction that was applied during mastering. By contrast, the later Star Wars "Special Edition" laserdiscs look perfectly solid. Unfortunately, the "Definitive Collection" discs are basically unwatchable on a progressive scan screen.

If the new deinterlacer can improve that, I'll be one happy camper.

Do you still have the original box? There is a sticker placed outside the box on one of the corners that appears to have the serial number. Does the serial number start with "ISCANVP30"?

Unfortunately, I used the box to ship back my HD+ for the trade-in.

It's about the only thing out but I suspect that as only output 1 talks to the source (output 2 just mirrors 1) it might prove tricky to run only one at a time with different native rates. But yeah if I get desperate I'll have to give a go.
Mine works fine with either the Panasonic plasma running native resolution or my Sony VPL-HS51 projector running 720P. I never have both on at the same time and have never had HDMI handshake problems.

I believe I registered, but can't remember. Is there any way to check that before I disconnect all my wires and pull the VP30 out of my equipment rack to get the serial number?
:D :p

Ever since I saw Josh's post about the registering I have been thinking the same thing, I can't remember if I registered or not. I suppose registering again won't hurt, I still have my box. :)

Does the serial number start with "ISCANVP30"?
Yes it does.

The special price is only available for a limited time after the daughter card becomes available and only to those that are registered here:

http://www.dvdo.com/register/
Do we have to register even if we purchased directly from DVDO? Like others here, I can't remember if I registered or not. I usually register expensive purchases, but since I bought direct it seems DVDO would already have all my information.

I can't remember if I registered either (bought direct from DVDO as an upgrade), but I just did again. Can't hurt.

-John

So is the VP30 great for cross conversion of 1080i to 720p? I am thinking of it for my JVC HM5 U DTHEATER, HD TIVO, and HD DVD. Since my pjs native rate is 720p, I think the VP30 might be more adequate at doing the cross conversion then my PJ...Any thoughts?

I can't remember if I registered either (bought direct from DVDO as an upgrade), but I just did again. Can't hurt.

-John

I did the same thing....

The name of the new deinterlacing card for the iScan VP30 is.....


ABT102 Precision Deinterlacing card

So its a fpga for SD and a real chip for the HD version seems like a good wat but then a new questions pops up for Dale. They're both FPGAs. The FPGA which can process HD is larger, faster, and more expensive than the SD-only one used for the VP30 upgrade.

1) Since its a fpga can we update it ? I could see a logic where you improve things based on feedback on the vp30+DL before the HD chip is made. While the ROM on the SD add-on card for the VP30 can be updated, you need special programming equipment to do it. (And I'm not even sure the production version of the card will have the connector needed to do this.) It cannot be updated in the same way as the VP30's software or scaling FPGAs can be. This was done primarily as a cost savings measure, so that the card could be offered at as low a cost as possible.

2) this seems the perfect chip for upscaling dvd players will this product be oem'ed to companies we know like say for example denon? Since the need for HD inside a upscaling dvd player is overkill and this way chipcost are lower than the others in the market. We agree with you, and apparently a number of other companies do as well. There are several CE manufacturers building the SD deinterlacer into their products, and we're talking with quite a few more who are interested in doing this. (And no, I can't tell you who they are, but the types of products include things like DVD players.)

- Dale Adams

Any changes we will see changes to the deinterlacer based on feedback ?, The board seems to have a rom that might be replaced to load the fpga. Or is the work on the deinterlacer done and have you moved on to new projects for the next gen. scaler. It's certainly possible that the design could be updated based on user feedback. That's one of the primary reasons we do beta testing, after all. The HD deinterlacer design is still being worked on. We could probably ship it as is, but I'm a little picky about certain things :D , and there are some performance improvements and new features I'd like to get into the design.

Does the fpga have room left for more options in the future say noise reduction or any of the new features in the next gen ? It's pretty full right now. There really isn't room left for things like NR.

Did you in the end also look at the stress tests provided by oferlaor ? He seems happy with the results so would be nice to hear your take on it. Yes I did, and everything looks okay to me. Of course then Ofer goes and sends me some new torture tests to try :rolleyes: , but I haven't had a chance to look at those yet.

- Dale Adams

Dale, I'll tell you what my test for the new deinterlacer will be: the Star Wars "Definitive Collection" laserdiscs. There's something screwy with the mastering of those LDs that causes both Silicon Image and Faroudja deinterlacers to drop into Video mode for the duration of the movie, leading to lots of shimmer and combing, even when trying to force a film bias. I think this may have something to do with the excessive noise reduction that was applied during mastering. By contrast, the later Star Wars "Special Edition" laserdiscs look perfectly solid. Unfortunately, the "Definitive Collection" discs are basically unwatchable on a progressive scan screen.

If the new deinterlacer can improve that, I'll be one happy camper.
As it happens, I have a copy of that laserdisc collection sitting on my shelf downstairs. I haven't watched it in years, though, and certainly haven't run it through the new deinterlacer. I'll give it a shot when I get a chance, but I don't know how soon it will be.

- Dale Adams

Josh and Dale - just registered (again?) - I cannot find a serial number ON my VP30 - found the box, copied off that. Will this be a problem in the future? - don't want you to think I have a gray market unit or anything - got it from you in the first public run.

ooops - I found it. Didn't realize it was a sticker - kept looking for stamped numbers all over the unit; then saw this piece of sticky paper laying on the shelf, as I was holding the unit up. Got it unstuck from my hand, looked at the front before I threw it away, and VIOLA. A DVDO unit sticker. Put it back on the VP30. Thanks, and sorry to bother. :o

The serial number on the bottom of the unit is the same as the serial number on the box so that should not be a problem. Additionally if you are not sure if you have registered, it will not hurt to do it again.

... The HD deinterlacer design is still being worked on. We could probably ship it as is, but I'm a little picky about certain things :D , and there are some performance improvements and new features I'd like to get into the design.


- Dale Adams

So Dale and Josh,

How much to get the HD deinterlacer shipped as is? :)

So Dale and Josh,

How much to get the HD deinterlacer shipped as is? :)

(In Dr. Evil's voice, and with the pinky at the corner of the mouth)

One billion dollars!!! :D

(In Dr. Evil's voice, and with the pinky at the corner of the mouth)

One billion dollars!!!

Are those Pago Pago dollars (I hope ;) ?)

I registered, hopefully it will ship when expected.

(In Dr. Evil's voice, and with the pinky at the corner of the mouth)

One billion dollars!!! :D

The checks in the mail! ;)

Josh, before folks get confused :) , can you just confirm that at this time DVDO have no plans to release the HD capable "ABT102 Precision Deinterlacing card" for use with the VP30? (Either for technical reasons or as a reserved technology for bigger, better things to come next Xmas :D ).

Just before we get a page worth of 'When's the ABT102+ going to be released?'. :rolleyes:

(In Dr. Evil's voice, and with the pinky at the corner of the mouth)

One billion dollars!!! :D

Dear Sir or Madame,

Would you be willing to ship to Europe? I will send you a bank note for One billion and one dollars. All you will need to do is send me new Super HD deinterlacer, cash check, and send back my $1. Your urgent response is needed in this matter.

The name of the new deinterlacing card for the iScan VP30 is.....


ABT102 Precision Deinterlacing card
Cool. What's the name of the chip? I mean seemingly other CE companies are going to integrate your chip into their products and they won't use your deinterlacing card. So the chip itself must have a name, too, right? Is it simply "ABT102", just like the old chip was named "SiI504"?

So, can dealers buy this add on board when its available, and sell it to their customers for $199? I think this was asked before but I didn't see a answer. I did ask a dealer but they said they didn't know yet, because DVDO couldn't tell them, since its not available for shipping yet.

Also, I'm still losing the audio at random times when changing channels or even when I shut down my projector. Sometimes it will come back with changing channels quickly or switching the unit off then back on. It never did that on the first version of firmware.

Cool. What's the name of the chip? I mean seemingly other CE companies are going to integrate your chip into their products and they won't use your deinterlacing card. So the chip itself must have a name, too, right? Is it simply "ABT102", just like the old chip was named "SiI504"?
It's "ABT102". Other Anchor Bay Technologies (ABT) chips include the ABT1010 and ABT1018, which are both 10-bit scalers.

- Dale Adams

Ah, interesting. Just for my information (not really important) :

- Which scaler chip is used in VP30?
- Which scaler chip is used in the Denon DVD player?
- Does the HD deinterlacing chip shown on CES have a name already?

Thanks!

Is there any news on how us international types will be able to get the ABT102 upgrade for the nice intro price of $199. I bought my VP30 as an upgrade from DVDO, but it was fulfilled from the local distributor (Owl Video) in the UK. Will similar happen here, or will they be shipped directly from DVDO?

Dale, I'll tell you what my test for the new deinterlacer will be: the Star Wars "Definitive Collection" laserdiscs. There's something screwy with the mastering of those LDs that causes both Silicon Image and Faroudja deinterlacers to drop into Video mode for the duration of the movie, leading to lots of shimmer and combing, even when trying to force a film bias. I think this may have something to do with the excessive noise reduction that was applied during mastering. By contrast, the later Star Wars "Special Edition" laserdiscs look perfectly solid. Unfortunately, the "Definitive Collection" discs are basically unwatchable on a progressive scan screen.

If the new deinterlacer can improve that, I'll be one happy camper.

I did my own homemade transfer of the Definitive Collection Laserdiscs to DVD using a standalone DVD recorder. When I play the discs in my Denon 2900 (uses the SiI504) it seems to do pretty well staying in film mode. It only drops to video at some edit points and at a few other places. Is there something happening in the transfer to DVD that makes the SiI504 more able to cope? It seems strange that your video processors are having a harder time on what, in theory, should be a cleaner signal.

Is there any news on how us international types will be able to get the ABT102 upgrade for the nice intro price of $199. I bought my VP30 as an upgrade from DVDO, but it was fulfilled from the local distributor (Owl Video) in the UK. Will similar happen here, or will they be shipped directly from DVDO?

My guess and hope is the will use the same way as the vp30 upggrade, that depends a little on country it seems. Worked for me and keeps all happy.

Also some PAL distributors might want to take more action themselfs since this is such
a good upgrade for us pal users.

Daniel.

- Which scaler chip is used in VP30? Custom FPGA with no specific part number.

- Which scaler chip is used in the Denon DVD player? Yet another and different custom FPGA (ABT101).

- Does the HD deinterlacing chip shown on CES have a name already?! Not really. The deinterlacer in general is code-named "Ducky Lucky" (there's some history behind that name - the original DVDO deinterlacer was "Chicken Little" and the SiI504 was "Henny Penny" :) ), which is what the "DL" you occasionally see refers to. The SD and HD deinterlacers are really just two different versions of the same design, with the HD version being more complete in that it can handle both SD and HD sources.

- Dale Adams

Custom FPGA with no specific part number.

Yet another and different custom FPGA (ABT101).

Not really. The deinterlacer in general is code-named "Ducky Lucky" (there's some history behind that name - the original DVDO deinterlacer was "Chicken Little" and the SiI504 was "Henny Penny" :) ), which is what the "DL" you occasionally see refers to. The SD and HD deinterlacers are really just two different versions of the same design, with the HD version being more complete in that it can handle both SD and HD sources.

- Dale Adams

And you promised it would be called DS, Dragons Slayer :).

Daniel.

PS: maybe i made that up, seem to remember someone saying thats since it would go head to head with some giants :)

The deinterlacer in general is code-named "Ducky Lucky" (there's some history behind that name - the original DVDO deinterlacer was "Chicken Little" and the SiI504 was "Henny Penny" :) ), which is what the "DL" you occasionally see refers to.
I thought "DL" stood for "DeinterLacing". Of course "Ducky Lucky" makes much more sense (not!)... :D

As it happens, I have a copy of that laserdisc collection sitting on my shelf downstairs. I haven't watched it in years, though, and certainly haven't run it through the new deinterlacer. I'll give it a shot when I get a chance, but I don't know how soon it will be.

Thanks, Dale. The first scene in the first movie is a good example of what I'm seeing. As R2D2 and C3PO walk through the ship's white corridors, the fine details in the robots' molding and diagonal lines all over the set are a jittery mess.

The iScan VP30 field-scales a 1080i signal, although we are considering adding a pass through mode (in addition to a general pass through) which only goes into effect when the input is 1080i (please don't ask for an ETA, I will post here when it is concrete).

Hi Josh, I'm a bit confused by this statement about field-scaling. If I configure the VP30 to output 1080i and the input signal is 1080i this doesn't essentially work like a passthrough? What processing is involved in field-scaling? What potential artifacts can result from this?

Thanks to anyone who can help get my head around this concept.

I would like to see a pass-though option for 1080i signals in VP30, any update?

StooMonster

Just a slight change of tack here.

I put on Vs 1.06 on my VP30, after it completely hung (on Vs 1.03) and couldn't be made operable again unless I performed a Factory Reset (or, at least that was the last option I had left to try). So, rather than do that, I downloaded Vs 1.06 into it. Glad I did, as so far, it's been flawless - no audio drop-outs at all . Audio comes back up quickly after changing source, unlike comments made by some other posters here.

But yesterday:

Well, I spoke too soon . When surfing between 2 DD sources, it misbehaves - kills the audio out of both sources. Put one of them back to PCM and then it WILL put the sound through from both - one PCM, but the other still DD. Bizarre. So, don't upgrade your firmware just yet if audio is the main reason for doing so. Are we close to resolving this?

Still luv ya DVDO - have put in my order for the new DI board. :)

escon,

How did you put in your order for the new di board?

vn

Umm... Can we order the deinterlacer upgrade now? Or is DI some other acronym, escon?

Anyhoo: will those of us who have registered our VP30 automatically receive an e-mail when it's possible to place an order (preferably at the $199 pricing)?

Just a slight change of tack here.

I put on Vs 1.06 on my VP30, after it completely hung (on Vs 1.03) and couldn't be made operable again unless I performed a Factory Reset (or, at least that was the last option I had left to try). So, rather than do that, I downloaded Vs 1.06 into it. Glad I did, as so far, it's been flawless - no audio drop-outs at all . Audio comes back up quickly after changing source, unlike comments made by some other posters here.

But yesterday:

Well, I spoke too soon . When surfing between 2 DD sources, it misbehaves - kills the audio out of both sources. Put one of them back to PCM and then it WILL put the sound through from both - one PCM, but the other still DD. Bizarre. So, don't upgrade your firmware just yet if audio is the main reason for doing so. Are we close to resolving this?

Still luv ya DVDO - have put in my order for the new DI board. :)

I am looking forward to the new DI board as much as the everyone else---but can we get back to addressing the audio drop outs on DVD and loss of audio when surfing channels with different audio (PCM - DD). I went back to 1.05 because these problems seem fewer than 1.06. DVDO seems ahead of itself with the new DI board since firmware upgrades 1.02, 1.03, 1.05 and 1.06 still haven't got it right. If fact 1.00 was the best for me audio wise but the color was awful and other picture stability issues kept coming up.

IMHO, focusing on when and how "I" can get a video upgrade before its available seems pretty unimportant compared to getting the V30 to perform to original spec.

Josh, can we get an update on upcoming audio fixes?

escon,

How did you put in your order for the new di board?

vn

When I said "order" what I meant was that I logged into the site Josh-of-DVDO gave a few posts earlier and expressed my interest in getting this board for the advertised USD199.00 (price for registered DVDO product owners). Sorry if the word "order" caused some confiusion.

Umm... Can we order the deinterlacer upgrade now? Or is DI some other acronym, escon?

Anyhoo: will those of us who have registered our VP30 automatically receive an e-mail when it's possible to place an order (preferably at the $199 pricing)?

I hope so, it's certainly what would make the most sense :)

Dale,

I don't want to get ahead of things, but a few clarifications would help.

First, i am all over the ABT102. I like the VP30 as it is, but we are all out to improve our video performance. Otherwise, why have a processor?

My question is regarding the HD part. It is pretty clear on what the ABT102 will accomplish, but not the HD device. Will this plug into the same connector in the VP30 or is this slated for a new box entirely?

Is this the improved 1080i deinterlacing or are we going to see a FW upgrade on the existing VP30 to address this. How would this new device improve standard HD (720p or 1080i) material from a Cable source?

I am trying to figure our where the HD FPGA falls into the scheme of things.

I know DVDO is very fair regarding upgrades, which is one of the primary reasons I went with you, but I like to plan my upgrades and in order to plan, I need to understand the roadmap per se.

Thanks.

Does anyone have a similar set up and still have audio dropouts:

SA8300HD (Comcast) feeding my VP30 via HDMI for Video. The VP30 is set for pass through on HD signals. My audio connection from the 8300HD is digital coax to my AVR (Pioneer Elite), so I bypass the VP30. I set it up this way to get around the audio dropouts.

Unfortunately, I still get periodic dropouts (several times a show). My guess is that the cable box or cable service is the reason. I don't recall getting any via DVD with this type of configuration. Since I am bypassing the VP30 for audio, it would seem that it is the cable service or box.

Does anyone have a similar experience? I am at the original FW release. I will upgrade when everything settles down.

Do I need a new 8300HD box? Anyone have this problem, then get it fixed? It is quite irritating.

Dale,

I don't want to get ahead of things, but a few clarifications would help.

First, i am all over the ABT102. I like the VP30 as it is, but we are all out to improve our video performance. Otherwise, why have a processor?

My question is regarding the HD part. It is pretty clear on what the ABT102 will accomplish, but not the HD device. Will this plug into the same connector in the VP30 or is this slated for a new box entirely?

Is this the improved 1080i deinterlacing or are we going to see a FW upgrade on the existing VP30 to address this. How would this new device improve standard HD (720p or 1080i) material from a Cable source?

I am trying to figure our where the HD FPGA falls into the scheme of things.

I know DVDO is very fair regarding upgrades, which is one of the primary reasons I went with you, but I like to plan my upgrades and in order to plan, I need to understand the roadmap per se.

Thanks.

I think DVDO has made it clear in this thread that the new HD deinterlacer is still in development and that it will not be available for the VP30 and by implication it will be available in some future product. People here have made up the name VP40 for this mythical future scalar, but no such device has been even hinted at by DVDO.

They have also made it clear that the HD & SD deinterlacers share a lot of technology and hence the HD deinterlacer will basically do for 1080i what the ABT102 will do for 480i/576i. 720p is not interlaced so I wouldn't expect it to do anything for you there.

- Collin

thanks, but it wasn't clear to me on whether they were planning to release a new product or have an upgrade path on the existing VP30.

People may call a new product VP40, but as you said, no one from DVDO has indicated such a future product and unless I missed it somewhere, which is totally possible, I have not seen DVDO say the new HD chip would not be available for a VP30 upgrade. If I did miss it, please let me know. My impression is that they have not said one way or the other.

My real question on 1080i is the capability to scale effectively to 720p (maybe this was not clear), since most projectors that are in existence are native 720p or 768p and what other features it may have.

Thus, my question to Dale on how the HD solution plays out in the future for clarity purposes.

So when I receive my VP30 later this week, and if it happens to have firmware version 1.05, should I leave it? My source just received a few units on the 9th of March. So I don't know what the chances are either way of what firmware it will come with...

I read in WSR magazine that the 1080i to 720p cross conversion was done nicely. Showing good detail, and a sharper picture with good colors... That is one of the main reasons I wanted a VP30 as well...That and the conveinant HDMI switching...

Try it and find out. You can always go backward or forward. v1.00 is the only one that is reliable for me so far.

Good point aaron...I will have a fun weekend experimenting!

I have two SA8300HD's running through the VP30 using HDMI for both audio and video. I have two Sony DVD megachangers running through a component Switch into the VP30 using Digital Audio (coaxial) also through the VP30. Digital audio then goes from the VP30 to a Lexicon MC1. I am running 1.06 on the VP30. There is also a Roku Photobridge running through the same component switch/vp30 (same as the DVD players) which I use extensively for music (Mpeg3 and DTS ripped to WAV files).

I have played with the audio from the component switch both through the VP 30 and direct to the Lexicon. I have never had an audio dropout from the devices using the component connection. That is, I see no issue with the VP30 processing audio from DVD's or server based music.

With the DVR's I have had the audio directly to the Lexicon, through the VP30 via Toslink, and through the VP30 on the HDMI cable. There are audio dropouts using all three paths mentioned, and I do not see a marked difference no matter what the path is. My conclusion here is that the audio dropouts are from the cable system/DVR. What confirms that in my mind is that often the audio dropouts are accompanied by video pixelation confirming a signal problem.

The fastest switch/resync of audio on channel changes or audio format changes is with the VP30 out of the loop. The Lexicon handles these with no issues what so ever. The next best scenario is with the DVR audio going through the VP30 via the Toslink path. The worst performance is with the audio going through the HDMI cable (which is the one I really want). An interesting configuration option (for testing) would be audio pass through bypassing any processing of the audio. I bet it will look just like it does when I cable around the VP30

My system reports and displays the Lexicons status in real time providing the exact type of audio it is seeing (AC-3, DTS, PCM, none; 2.0 channels, 5.1 Channels, etc). It is interesting to watch with the three paths mentioned above. Direct to the Lexicon is clean and precise. A switch from AC3 5.1 to AC3 2.0 (AC3=DD) happens once (generally when watching a HD show in DD 5.1 when a SD commercial pops up) and no "fumbling" or stuttering. It happens precisely as the picture on the screen changes. Similarly for the switch back from SD commercial to HD feature. With the audio on the Toslink VP30 input there is significant delay (audio alignment trailing picture change) with some fumbling (by fumbling I mean AC3-None - AC3 - none - AC3...). With the Audio via HDMI the problem just worsens. The alignment delay is longer and there is often more fumbling until sync/alignment is achieved. In a positive sense one might say the VP30 with the HDMI connected audio is trying harder.

The other issue I have seen is that if I want to switch between the audio on HDMI vs the Audio on the Toslink (both are cabled), switching to the Toslink from HDMI is no problem. Switching back however (Toslink to HDMI) almost always requires a reset of the VP30 to factory defaults. That is a pain in the butt when trying to find out what is going on!

As far as I can tell it does not matter if the DVR (SA8300HD) is set to output HDMI or Digital Dolby. It really should though according to the SA8300HD manual. The manual states that the Digital outputs (Digital optical, Digital Coaxial, HDMI) will all be the same. If set to HDMI then the output will be formatted and controlled by what the TV (the other end of the HDMI connection) says it can accept. If it is set to Dolby Digital the audio output will always be what is sent by the station. I am not convinced it works as specified, in fact I am pretty sure it does not. I find it amusing in that my "TV", a BENQ projector accepting input on DVI, takes in no audio so it tells the DVI/HDMI connection nothing about its capability to accept audio. Perhaps silence is golden. The question really is what does the VP30 (an HDMI repeater) tell the upstream source (the DVR) about the audio capabilities of the downstream TV when it does not accept any audio. Hopefully it states it can accept any and all audio formats.

As an aside, I spent two days reading the HDMI specs. I am getting to old for this. I use to eat that stuff up now I just want it to work. Life for me is clearly getting shorter.

I live about an hour east of Orlando and will be at the EHx show on Friday. I have offered the DVDO team to come spend time at my place to look at the VP30 in a real theater setting and play with it. The offer still stands.

@HTSteve, to me the hints dropped by Josh & Dale sound like the VP30 will not get the HD deinterlacer. Not now and not later. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what they said, but it clearly sounded like that to me.

In the WSR review of the VP30 Greg Rogers wrote that DVDO is planning to bring out a new product with the HD deinterlacer later this year.

thanks, but it wasn't clear to me on whether they were planning to release a new product or have an upgrade path on the existing VP30.

People may call a new product VP40, but as you said, no one from DVDO has indicated such a future product and unless I missed it somewhere, which is totally possible, I have not seen DVDO say the new HD chip would not be available for a VP30 upgrade. If I did miss it, please let me know. My impression is that they have not said one way or the other.

My real question on 1080i is the capability to scale effectively to 720p (maybe this was not clear), since most projectors that are in existence are native 720p or 768p and what other features it may have.

Thus, my question to Dale on how the HD solution plays out in the future for clarity purposes.

Here's a pretty definitive post from Josh on the subject.

- Collin


We (ABT/DVDO) also demonstrated 1080i deinterlacing at CES. This technology will not be available for the iScan VP30.

__________________
Josh Allen
DVDO/Powered by ABT


Post #2658 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7293540#post7293540)

Thus, my question to Dale on how the HD solution plays out in the future for clarity purposes.
I think the quote from Josh (above) is pretty clear with respect to the VP30. With respect to HD deinterlacing in future products: Yes, we will eventually release a video processor which has the HD version of the SD deinterlacer. No, I can't give you any more information than that right now.

- Dale Adams

They have also made it clear that the HD & SD deinterlacers share a lot of technology and hence the HD deinterlacer will basically do for 1080i what the ABT102 will do for 480i/576i. 720p is not interlaced so I wouldn't expect it to do anything for you there.
Actually, it will provide a benefit for 720p sources. If you have a 720p/60 source with 3:2 pulldown, DL will perform cadence detection on that signal. This allows genlocked frame rate conversion to 48 Hz or 72 Hz (i.e., 2:2 and 3:3), similar to what the current iScans do now with a 480i source.

- Dale Adams

Greg Roger's article in WSR discussed the benefits of cross conversion from 1080i to 720p. When they say 1080i deinterlacing don't they mean to 1080p? Am I missing something?

@joerod, there are multiple way to deinterlace 1080i to 1080p. The VP30 is using "bob", as do a lot of current generation displays. This method works, however, it's not optimal at all. The new HD deinterlacing chip will do a much better job. Basically it should give you double the resolution for free.

@joerod, there are multiple way to deinterlace 1080i to 1080p. The VP30 is using "bob", as do a lot of current generation displays. This method works, however, it's not optimal at all. The new HD deinterlacing chip will do a much better job. Basically it should give you double the resolution for free.

I understood its not normal bob but some added tricks to make it somewhat better can Dale or someone else explain to us what the vp30 does ?.

Joerod: yes it does, just checked the widescreen comments again and they explain it well if you ask me. Just seem to remember somewhere that the vp30 does something more than just bob.

Daniel.

This is a great thread :) To be honest, up until yesterday, the VP30 wasn't even on my shopping list, but after reading about the DL card upgrade it sounds like it will be perfect for me as I don't see myself getting a lot of HD content in the next couple of years being in the UK, I also "only" have a 720P capable projector.
My question is, if I were to buy a VP30 this week, would I still be eligible for the $199 upgrade? Or would the offer only be eligible for owners who have been registered on the DVDO site for a while?

I actualy haven't been worried about going 1080i to 1080p. I am more concerned about 1080i to 720p. My DTHEATER titles are in 1080i, HD DVD looks like it will be in 1080i (atleast at the start) and many HD broadcasts are in 1080i. If the VP30 offers benefits to doing cross conversion 1080i to 720p then it will be a keeper...

I actualy haven't been worried about going 1080i to 1080p. I am more concerned about 1080i to 720p.
You can't directly go from 1080i to 720p. The conversion steps are 1080i -> 1080p -> 720p. So you will benefit from improved 1080i -> 1080p deinterlacing, too.

You can't directly go from 1080i to 720p. The conversion steps are 1080i -> 1080p -> 720p. So you will benefit from improved 1080i -> 1080p deinterlacing, too.

**** changed : 'More general you can't scale anything before you have deinterlaced it.'
See Dales comments on the next page. I should not talk about things i don't understand grrrrr

Daniel.

@joerod, there are multiple way to deinterlace 1080i to 1080p. The VP30 is using "bob", as do a lot of current generation displays. This method works, however, it's not optimal at all. The new HD deinterlacing chip will do a much better job. Basically it should give you double the resolution for free.
You don't necessarily get 2X the vertical resolution. What you do get depends on a variety of factors. The only cases where you would get a true 2X vertical resolution increase would be for film sources (e.g., those with 3:2 or 2:2 pulldown) and the non-moving parts of a true interlaced source. And even then, if the image was vertically pre-filtered to reduce flicker on interlaced displays you'll get less than a 2X increase.

However, there are other benefits to better deinterlacing. For example, basing the output on a single field will result in line twitter (flicker) on areas of the image with a lot of vertical detail (i.e., where there's aliasing in a single field). This is a byproduct of interlacing - i.e., where adjacent fields are not spatially coincident. You'd still see this with a 2160i signal, even though you had 2X the vertical resolution of 1080i. Motion-adaptive and cadence detection techniques reduce this type of artifact substantially, and in some cases completely.

- Dale Adams

So do you think there will be some improvements on my native 720p PJ? I just hope the scaling in the VP30 shows improvement over my pjs...

You can't directly go from 1080i to 720p.
But you can. That's exactly what the VP30 is doing. There is no intermediate 1080p step. Each 1080i field is scaled directly to the output resolution. The trick here is to take into account the half-line vertical offset between even and odd fields by altering the starting phase shift of the vertical scaling operation based on which field is being scaled.

Remember that 'bob' is really just a 2X vertical scaling operation which takes into account the vertical shift between fields. Rather than doing this vertical scaling first, followed by a second scaling operation to the output resolution, we just combine the two into a single scaling operation with the addition of the vertical shift compensation. This also provides the benefit of doing the 'bob' function with a high-quality scaling engine rather than the more common linear interpolation used by many 'bob' deinterlacing techniques.

Now, what you really don't want to do is scale interlaced to interlaced. While you can do this, the results are almost always less than satisfactory.

The conversion steps are 1080i -> 1080p -> 720p.
The new HD deinterlacer will produce a 1080p intermediate signal. This 1080p deinterlaced result will then be scaled to the desired output resolution. That's not how the iScan HD+ or VP30 operate, though.

- Dale Adams

You don't necessarily get 2X the vertical resolution. What you do get depends on a variety of factors.
You're absolutely right, of course. I must confess that I was too lazy when I wrote my previous comment. Sorry 'bout that... :o On the plus side, I never would have been able to word it as accurately as you've done now. Thanks! (Going to bookmark your comment for future references).

Thanks Dale, so is that what GregR means by cross conversion (1080i 10 720p)? I do notice a little line twittter (like last nite) sometimes during the credits of an HD program from HBO or Showtime...I hope the VP30 helps in that regard...

Thanks Dale, so is that what GregR mwans by cross conversion (1080i 10 720p)? I do notice a little line twittter (like last nite) sometimes during the credits of an HD program from HBO or Showtime...I hope the VP30 helps in that regard...
You may well see this with the VP30 as well. How much, if any, it's reduced will depend on the relative quality of the scaling in your display and the VP30.

- Dale Adams

Thanks again Dale, I don't really sit there and watch credits so that is not that big of a deal...I am looking for good, easy, HDMI switching, SD sources to look better (though I hardly watch them-only when forced to) and excellent 1080i to 720p cross conversion...

I do like the Razorvision from Belkink for HD sports but not for programs or movies. Does anyone know if I have them in the same HDMI chain if they are compatible now that the VP30 has newer firmwares? I wouldn't use them at the same time but since I am running a 35 foot HDMI cable the Razorvision acts as a good HDMI repeater when set in standby mode...

But you can. That's exactly what the VP30 is doing. There is no intermediate 1080p step. Each 1080i field is scaled directly to the output resolution. The trick here is to take into account the half-line vertical offset between even and odd fields by altering the starting phase shift of the vertical scaling operation based on which field is being scaled.

Remember that 'bob' is really just a 2X vertical scaling operation which takes into account the vertical shift between fields. Rather than doing this vertical scaling first, followed by a second scaling operation to the output resolution, we just combine the two into a single scaling operation with the addition of the vertical shift compensation. This also provides the benefit of doing the 'bob' function with a high-quality scaling engine rather than the more common linear interpolation used by many 'bob' deinterlacing techniques.
Interesting. Thanks for the detailed explanation! I thought you'd bob to 1080p first and then scale to 720p. But it does make sense to skip the intermediate step. Also I didn't know that you use a half-line vertical offset. Of course it makes very much sense. I always thought: "vertical lines must twitter like crazy with bob!", because I wasn't aware of the offset.

Well, learning something new every day... :)

The iScan VP30 field-scales a 1080i signal, although we are considering adding a pass through mode (in addition to a general pass through) which only goes into effect when the input is 1080i (please don't ask for an ETA, I will post here when it is concrete).

Hi Josh, I'm a bit confused by this statement about field-scaling. If I configure the VP30 to output 1080i and the input signal is 1080i this doesn't essentially work like a passthrough? What processing is involved in field-scaling? What potential artifacts can result from this?

Thanks to anyone who can help get my head around this concept.

Dale, if you have a chance could you help me understand this one?

Dale, if you have a chance could you help me understand this one?
If the input and output are both 1080i, and no zoom or other scaling-type operations are done, then it is very similar to a passthrough operation. The VP30 scaling engine will not change the input data if the input and output resolutions are identical. The field-scaling operation Josh refers to is operative when the input is interlaced and the output is progressive.

There will be a few differences, though. There are some color space conversions which can occur depending on the type of input and output color spaces being used (i.e., RGB or YCbCr), and the picture controls are active as well. The picture controls won't change the signal at all if they're in their neutral position (which is the system default), but at least one color space conversion will always be done.

- Dale Adams

Great, thanks for info Dale, this definitely clears things up. It's awesome to have such a great resource here on the forums!

When I said "order" what I meant was that I logged into the site Josh-of-DVDO gave a few posts earlier and expressed my interest in getting this board for the advertised USD199.00

-Sorry to harp on about this, but just to make this perfectly clear; do you mean the 'register' URL that Josh posted, or have I missed a URL? I have registered my VP30, but I didn't notice anything specific to this upgrade there. I did keep the "contact me about updates etc." checkboxes checked though.

Anyone here using VP30 with panny 8uk? If so can you share you experience with hooking up VP30 to 8uk? Maybe your settings?

Cosmo, read this thread and you will find what you need:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=638211

-Sorry to harp on about this, but just to make this perfectly clear; do you mean the 'register' URL that Josh posted, or have I missed a URL? I have registered my VP30, but I didn't notice anything specific to this upgrade there. I did keep the "contact me about updates etc." checkboxes checked though.

Hi John. No, I didn't find anything specifically mention the new board there, so I just filled in the comment section with the request for the ABT102 Precision Deinterlacing card.

I have a Mits 42" CRT RPTV (1080i). I now understand the argument of why you do not do scaling in interlaced mode. Now that a 480i signal is deinterlaced and is scaled to 1080P is it easy to re interlace for viewing on my TV.

The VP30 has intrigued me since the announcement. I wonder will a 1080i RPTV see the full benefit.

Thanks,
DR

DR - good question. Some day when I have time and energy I'll pack mine up, take to the parents, and plug into their Hitachi. (1080i RPTV.) It looks pretty good now - I'm guessing it has a half decent scaler onboard - they claim to have a proprietory "virtual 1080p" - would have to guess that the VP30 would be an improvement (if only because it cost almost twice what the entire tv cost) but would it be worth the money - that'd have to be up to you. And, of course, highly dependant on how good the internal scaler is in your Mits.

I have a Mits 42" CRT RPTV (1080i). I now understand the argument of why you do not do scaling in interlaced mode. Now that a 480i signal is deinterlaced and is scaled to 1080P is it easy to re interlace for viewing on my TV.

The VP30 has intrigued me since the announcement. I wonder will a 1080i RPTV see the full benefit.

Thanks,
DR


I am using that setup here, the VP30 and a Mits 9" CRT RPTV that is 1080i

totally amazing SDI DVD playback(Film only) at 1080i from the VP30 and that is with the current sil504, I will get a chance to see the new DL very soon and I really have alot of expectations built up about it as all of us do, I fill 100% confident that DVDO is going to deliver the goods with this one

the VP30 (after the short lived color decoding problems were corrected) improved my HDTV material also, in the form of underscan and all sorts of picture adjustments, taking the VP30 out of my chain showed a noticeable degradation in picture quality with all my sources

combine that with all the switching, converting and convience of profiles and setups and you have it made :)

also, interal Mits scalers are total ****, the VP30 is gonna spank anything "inside" a TV

-Gary

Dale,

Interesting comments about the cross conversion + genlocking to the 3:2 cadence of 720p, I didn't think anyone was actually doing that :)

Interesting comments about the cross conversion + genlocking to the 3:2 cadence of 720p, I didn't think anyone was actually doing that :)
I thought I had described the way the iScans converted 1080i to progressive formats once or twice before. Apparently I didn't do a very good job of explaining. :rolleyes: But as long as these iScan threads tend to get, it may just have been lost in noise. ;)

The cadence detection on progressive sources has been working for a few months now. I haven't tried 1080p yet, but it appears to work well on 480p, 576p and 720p. One potential issue with doing this is that if you're dealing with a signal that's been deinterlaced (as opposed to being a native progressive source), then you only get the quality level produced by that deinterlacer. DL will happily detect a cadence in a progressive signal that's been deinterlaced using a motion-adaptive or bob technique, so the end quality may not be as good as you'd expect. With a good source, though, DL maintains the quality level in the source as it doesn't alter the pixel data, but just indicates which are the original (film) frames.

- Dale Adams

Last night I noted the following: (2 SA8300HD DVRS connected via HDMI)

I was set to record two programs at the same time. The recording light went on, I checked and both were being recorded according to the "List" display. I switched back to my other 8300 and a few minutes later I switched again to the unit doing the recording.

The screen flashed the dreaded message about my display not being HDCP compliant. This happened several times over the course of a few seconds as if the VP30 was trying to figure out state and report it to the DVR. The display is HDCP compliant. The scaler was definitely having a problem as it is actually the scaler that provides that information to the DVR.

I went back to the other DVR. A few moments later I looked at the lights on the DVR that was supposedly recording my two programs and the red light was off. I switched to it (no display compliance problems) and sure enough the unit had terminated recording of both programs. In addition no audio was being detected over the HDMI cable

This is definitely not right under any circumstances. Recording should have nothing to do with the HDCP compliance of the display. Only playback of the recording should. Even if the unit did a reboot (which I am not sure of, but it should not have done) it should started to record the programs again. That is clearly a Scientific Atlanta Problem.

However there is clearly a handshaking problem on the VP30 HDMI interface. The Display is HDCP compliant, and the VP30 should always report that to upstream devices. Generally it does but clearly sometimes it does not or blows the handshake. In last nights case it annoyed me since these were both pilot episodes that I wanted to view in their entirety.

I have gotten so annoyed with the HDMI audio disappearance (as opposed to drop out) issue which then requires a factory default reset to straighten out, that I have gone back to running the DVR audio through a Toslink connection as opposed to the HDMI cable.

The HDMI interface really needs to be straightened out. I see lots of messages on the new DI chip and other new features and applaud DVDO's continuing efforts and their treatment of existing customers. I have been in the digital engineering field since 1960. I want a pure digital path whenever I can get it and that is why I bought the VP30. I thought I would then get a pure digital path for my cable TV based system (Cable head end to display). A pure digital path that works 100% of the time with no screw ups is as important if not more so (IMHO) than new features.

I have bought the SDI interface and only wish that in some new DVDO unit SDI switching will be provided in the same manner as HDMI switching. Maybe "mix and match" plugin modules for handling switching is the way to go, with N inputs per module (with audio if necessary) depending on connector requirements; and the ability to cascade or handle multiple modules of the same type. Component might have 2 input per module with 6 connectors ( 2 each of Y,Pb,Pr), SDI 4 inputs, HDMI 4 inputs, an audio module with 8 connectors (4 each of Toslink and Coaxial), etc.

Has anyone else seen behavior like this?

Barry,

I haven't had the issue wrt recording getting terminated on my DVR (Moto 6412 Phase III), but I have had the problem in the past with the HDMI handshake failing. At least since the most recent firmware upgrade (1.06) I haven't seen this issue.

I do still have an issue with not being able to use the HDMI output of my Denon DVD-3910 due to what I suspect is an HDMI handshake issue with a symptom of video interruption about every 1.5 - 2.0 seconds on a very regular basis.

Barry,

I only have one 8300HD connected to the VP30 via HDMI, but I have the audio routed directly to the AVR via Coax (still get audio drop outs as I mentioned before, so this must be a Comcast issue).

I often record two HD programs at the same time and I have never had an issue. I am on the original firmware. Also, being in the digital engineering field, I decided to wait on the FW upgrades until things are a little more proven/stable, especially, since things seem to be working reasonably well. I deal with these issues during the day, I really don't want to deal with them too often on my HT equipment in the evening.

I have a IF7210 as my display, if this makes a difference.

I know the HDMI handshake issue is a complex one, since every implementor may twist the spec a little bit. What the HDMI controlling authority needs is a mechanism for verifying compliance of an interface and providing a certification process. This is done in many places in the digital world, especially with "Glue" like devices that connect things or sit between things in the process chain. I just wish DVDO would spend more time on it.

I agree. It sounds like the HDMI "Standard" is not a very well written standard and it is definitely not verified very well.

Maybe they should take some lessons from the PCI SIG (Special Interest Group) and have a HDMI "plugfest" which verifies the interoperability of each suppliers product. If a product does not pass the interoperability test, then the unit cannot be sold with the HDMI name.

How often do you have a PCI interoperability problem??

If they have such a process, then the HDMI working group needs to make some serious revisions to its verification program.

The HDMI problem is a bit more complex than the PCI one, but I agree with all that you said. The HDMI problem gets very complex when the component is an HDMI repeater which is what the VP30 is. Then there are all sorts of rules/configurations related to downstream (towards the display or sink) devices and relaying that info to upstream dvices (sources).

I believe DVDO really needs to concentrate on the HDMI issue as that seems to be the way the consumer product line is going for component interconnection.

Recording on a DVR should have nothing to do with displays. You don't even have to have a display connected to record something as long as the cable box is connected. Strange stuff. The best thing I did recently was get rid of my 8300HD. DISH is now starting to offer HD local channels and their DVRs work so much better. This also solved some remote problems as the 8300HD was a real RF bleeder..... SJ

ok, just ordered a VP30 from DVDO due to all the excitement in this thread.

Hope it is a noticable improvement over the HD+ for twice the money.

I'm kind of migrating to more HD material and hope this machine will help with that.

Just got a couple of Moome's sdi cards in the mail with a Panasonic RP91 coming, hope that will be an improvement over the Pioneer 59avi I have been using over hdmi with the HD+

Josh or Dale,

Re: The ABT automatic CUE error detection and correction:


Splitting hairs really but, to be clear, unless the VP30 knows exactly what filter coefs where used by the 989 during chroma vertical scaling it can't fix it completely.
John.

If it can't be fixed completely how close does the VP30 get?

Mike

Dale, will the new DL chip provide any improvements when deinterlacing SD film based sources, as well as all the great SD video features?

StooMonster

Dale, will the new DL chip provide any improvements when deinterlacing SD film based sources, as well as all the great SD video features?

From Josh's announcement in the first post in this thread:

• Arbitrary cadence detection (any:any) to detect non-standard cadences in input signals.
o Reliable 2:2 pull-down detection for 50Hz countries
o Detection of 2:2 to/from 3:2 crossfades and out of phase 3:2 crossfades
o Detection of multiple source types within a frame for example video titles over film
o Bad edit detection and compensation to minimize artifacts caused by sequence breaks in film content

- Dale Adams

Thanks Dale, and yes I had read all about those lovely cadence related features. Guess I meant PQ of deinterlacing rather than cadence detection though -- I should have been more specific.

Is there a difference or is a weave a weave once film content has been detected?

StooMonster

Re: The ABT automatic CUE error detection and correction:

Originally Posted by JohnWH
Splitting hairs really but, to be clear, unless the VP30 knows exactly what filter coefs where used by the 989 during chroma vertical scaling it can't fix it completely.
John.


If it can't be fixed completely how close does the VP30 get?
Even if you knew exactly how a particular MPEG decoder performed the vertical chroma upsampling you may not be able to "fix it completely". Depending on how the filtering was done, it may not be possible to reverse the process and then re-do the upconversion. Add to this the fact that there are a number of techniques used by different MPEG decoders, and that the details of at least some of these are not known.

Because of this, the VP30 does not attempt to repair the problem at the root level, but rather vertically filters the chroma signal to remove the artifacts. This filtering operation isn't perfect - there's always a tradeoff between filtering too little and seeing some residual artifacts, and filtering too much and significantly reducing the vertical chroma resolution. We took what we thought was a reasonable approach with results that are subjectively pleasing. There is no hard and fast number for "how close" the VP30 gets to 'perfect'. There's not even a definition of what 'perfect' really means as there are various approaches to chroma upsampling in the first place.

That's probably a lot longer answer than you were looking for. I guess the short answer is that the VP30 does a very effective job at removing CUE and ICP artifacts, but it isn't perfect. No matter what type of CUE correction is done, you're always better off with an MPEG decoder which doesn't have a CUE problem in the first place. You can't do anything about ICP, though, other than filter the chroma signal to remove the artifacts.

- Dale Adams

Thanks Dale, and yes I had read all about those lovely cadence related features. Guess I meant PQ of deinterlacing rather than cadence detection though -- I should have been more specific.

Is there a difference or is a weave a weave once film content has been detected?
Ignoring issues like cross-fades and multiple source types in a single image, then a weave is a weave is a weave - assuming, of course, that you're weaving the right two fields together. :D Ideally, a weave doesn't change the video data from the source at all, but just merges the data from a pair of input fields to form the progressive output.

- Dale Adams

That's probably a lot longer answer than you were looking for.
- Dale Adams

Actually, that's exactly the kind of answer I was hoping for.

Thanks!

Mike

:( I had my vp30 overheat tonight... bummer, I had to unplug my vp30 and let it cool down. it quit accepting signal from the hdmi inputs. i use an open rack with no components on top of the scaler and a preamp underneath it.

it works fine now though.

I set my VP30 up tonite. I must say I was impresssed at the color that was added to my HD sources...It came with 1.05 firmware, should I be going to the 1.06?

Ignoring issues like cross-fades and multiple source types in a single image, then a weave is a weave is a weave - assuming, of course, that you're weaving the right two fields together. Ideally, a weave doesn't change the video data from the source at all, but just merges the data from a pair of input fields to form the progressive output.

I'd like to expand on Dale's point if I may.

The easiest mistake to make is to assume that because you have a rather good cadence lock you can simply weave the images together. I thought this as well, but the problem occurs when you have something that appears to have a static lock but is not in fact fully film.

For example, take a scene that has a static (or film cadence) frame with something going on inside it. The contents may be completely video, but because the rest of the image may be film (or appear to be film because it's almost completely static), then the contents will likely comb.

The same applies to subtitles, rolling titles, tickers - all of which are likely to be using a different cadence or no cadence = it could be video, it could have a different 3:2 or 2:2 sequence, and will likely stutter and/or comb.

Moreover, apparently some MPEG encoders will compress fields with little or no regards to cadence. During their compression stage they essentially "create" false cadence sequences because they made adjacent fields that are similar - identical, to save bandwidth.

If we take soccer as an example, this will cause the grass to have a stable cadence, while the people running on the grass will remain video (because they're moving too quickly and the encoder will not merge their data to avoid detail loss).

Whereas the FLI2XXX and Sil504 deinterlacers essentially weave these together, causing endless combing incidents, the DL and HQV approaches separate the instances and handle each area separately - minimizing combing.

I was deeply impressed by the DL's ability to handle these situations. I've passed Dale a specific case that has a "weekly" summary whereas the video is running inside a small box whereas most of the screen is occupied by a "calendar effect" that is using a different cadence. These two are compressed so that the MPEG encoder merges these and you get every combination of problems known to video - false cadence detection, different cadence locks running in different areas of the screen, frequent bad edits, etc.

It's one of the finest torture tests I've seen so far and DL combs 5 times (I stopped counting after 30 with the Sil504).

Ignoring issues like cross-fades and multiple source types in a single image, then a weave is a weave is a weave - assuming, of course, that you're weaving the right two fields together. :D Ideally, a weave doesn't change the video data from the source at all, but just merges the data from a pair of input fields to form the progressive output.
I'm no mathematics expert, but is it theoretically possible to detect vertically prefiltered film material? If so, would it be possible to run an algorithm to somehow reverse oder reduce this virtual filtering?

Thanks!

Morning all,

I've noticed this every now and then with my VP30 but it's usually cleared up by a hard power reset so figured it for a software glitch, however it still seems to occour with the latest firmware and I've not seen much mention of it so am thinking it maybe a fault? :(

Basicly the front panel display will either go blank or will have a horizontal line that slowly drifts down. No amount of menu switching or standby/power fliping seems to fix this (do sometimes get a brief flash of the startup logo thou).

I normally notice it when I've switched the format into something the display can't handle so go to the front display to try to adjust it and discover it's gone too.

I power down everything at the mains every night and this can happen when the VP30 has been powered up for just a few minutes or a few hours so doesn't seem like a leaky bit of code.

Anyone else had this?

Even if you knew exactly how a particular MPEG decoder performed the vertical chroma upsampling you may not be able to "fix it completely". Depending on how the filtering was done, it may not be possible to reverse the process and then re-do the upconversion. Add to this the fact that there are a number of techniques used by different MPEG decoders, and that the details of at least some of these are not known.

Because of this, the VP30 does not attempt to repair the problem at the root level, but rather vertically filters the chroma signal to remove the artifacts. This filtering operation isn't perfect - there's always a tradeoff between filtering too little and seeing some residual artifacts, and filtering too much and significantly reducing the vertical chroma resolution. We took what we thought was a reasonable approach with results that are subjectively pleasing. There is no hard and fast number for "how close" the VP30 gets to 'perfect'. There's not even a definition of what 'perfect' really means as there are various approaches to chroma upsampling in the first place.

That's probably a lot longer answer than you were looking for. I guess the short answer is that the VP30 does a very effective job at removing CUE and ICP artifacts, but it isn't perfect. No matter what type of CUE correction is done, you're always better off with an MPEG decoder which doesn't have a CUE problem in the first place. You can't do anything about ICP, though, other than filter the chroma signal to remove the artifacts.

- Dale Adams

How about your company coming out with the DVDO DVD player that matches perfectly with the VP30. It could output 480i over HDMI and input directly into the VP30 for a perfect picture! By the way, also include analog outputs for SACD, etc. :)

Is there a document/reference that explains "Cadence", "Pull Down", Film vs Video, "Comb" and the rest of the jargon so easily banted about by the practitioners on this forum? I would like to understand what is being said. I have some idea what they all mean and refer to but I would like to clean up my mind.

http://www.zerocut.com/tech/pulldown.html
:rolleyes:
2-3 Pulldown Explained

Bomrat

the VP30 does got extremly hot, scorching in fact, I have it on the top of my equipment setup where nothing is on top of it(not a shelf or other piece of equipment) and that seems to help

I have even thought about putting a fan in the unit :(

-Gary

Is there a document/reference that explains "Cadence", "Pull Down", Film vs Video, "Comb" and the rest of the jargon so easily banted about by the practitioners on this forum? I would like to understand what is being said. I have some idea what they all mean and refer to but I would like to clean up my mind.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html

Bomrat

the VP30 does got extremly hot, scorching in fact, I have it on the top of my equipment setup where nothing is on top of it(not a shelf or other piece of equipment) and that seems to help

I have even thought about putting a fan in the unit :(

-Gary
That's odd, I haven't noticed mine getting that hot, later today I'll take some temperature readings and see what it's running at.

I have noticed that my unit gets super hot when it has the component video in used. I have only HDMI hooked up now and it is cool. When I had the RBG in hooked up with adapters it was almost to hot to touch.

Bomrat

the VP30 does got extremly hot, scorching in fact, I have it on the top of my equipment setup where nothing is on top of it(not a shelf or other piece of equipment) and that seems to help

I have even thought about putting a fan in the unit :(

-Gary
Mine has been "On" for over an hour and at worst the right side is warm. I have never noticed it getting hot.

Maybe you have another problem??

Even if you knew exactly how a particular MPEG decoder performed the vertical chroma upsampling you may not be able to "fix it completely". Depending on how the filtering was done, it may not be possible to reverse the process and then re-do the upconversion. Add to this the fact that there are a number of techniques used by different MPEG decoders, and that the details of at least some of these are not known.

Because of this, the VP30 does not attempt to repair the problem at the root level, but rather vertically filters the chroma signal to remove the artifacts. This filtering operation isn't perfect - there's always a tradeoff between filtering too little and seeing some residual artifacts, and filtering too much and significantly reducing the vertical chroma resolution. We took what we thought was a reasonable approach with results that are subjectively pleasing. There is no hard and fast number for "how close" the VP30 gets to 'perfect'. There's not even a definition of what 'perfect' really means as there are various approaches to chroma upsampling in the first place.

That's probably a lot longer answer than you were looking for. I guess the short answer is that the VP30 does a very effective job at removing CUE and ICP artifacts, but it isn't perfect. No matter what type of CUE correction is done, you're always better off with an MPEG decoder which doesn't have a CUE problem in the first place. You can't do anything about ICP, though, other than filter the chroma signal to remove the artifacts.

- Dale Adams

I was slightly misquoted there, I did originally say you're better of without it in the first place :-)

One question do you find that the filtering required to fix the issue can cause some fringing in itself? Although I guess this is better than being plain wrong...

John.

my unit is not getting very warm at all now that I have it totally in the open, putting it in the midst of my shelves made it get very very hot

-Gary

One question do you find that the filtering required to fix the issue can cause some fringing in itself?
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "fringing". The filter is essentially a lowpass filter and is applied only to the chroma and only in the vertical direction (i.e., it's one-dimensional filter and has no effect on horizontal bandwidth). The filter response is approximately a half-band filter, so it will reduce the vertical chroma bandwidth back down to about what was present in the 4:2:0 source.

- Dale Adams

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "fringing". The filter is essentially a lowpass filter and is applied only to the chroma and only in the vertical direction (i.e., it's one-dimensional filter and has no effect on horizontal bandwidth). The filter response is approximately a half-band filter, so it will reduce the vertical chroma bandwidth back down to about what was present in the 4:2:0 source.

- Dale Adams

Ok, makes sense, I had got into my head that as you're band limiting the chroma you would increase width of transition so cause greater error on sharp transitions, but as you're just reducing it to its original BW...

Anyway, semi related question, does SDI feed in 4:2:0 format? If so isn't this the only interconnect that will allow the processor to avoid QUE and fix ICP ?

Thanks,
John.

Anyway, semi related question, does SDI feed in 4:2:0 format? If so isn't this the only interconnect that will allow the processor to avoid QUE and fix ICP ?
SDI provides 4:2:2. So if the MPEG decoder has a CUE problem you'll still see it with SDI.

- Dale Adams

SDI provides 4:2:2. So if the MPEG decoder has a CUE problem you'll still see it with SDI.

- Dale Adams

One more question, given that HD is still 4:2:0 encoded, any indication if we're going to get the same mess all over again?

Cheers,
John.

One more question, given that HD is still 4:2:0 encoded, any indication if we're going to get the same mess all over again?
I don't know about that one. Perhaps someone who has in-depth knowledge on the actual encoding and mastering of various HD sources could comment.

The VP30's automatic chroma artifact detection and filtering should still work either way, though. :D

- Dale Adams

I don't know about that one. Perhaps someone who has in-depth knowledge on the actual encoding and mastering of various HD sources could comment.

The VP30's automatic chroma artifact detection and filtering should still work either way, though. :D
BluRay and HD-DVD are going to be encoded progressively, as far as I know. So we should have no CUE problems there. Broadcasting is a different topic, though. Don't know about that, either.

For all those that are interested in seeing the ABT102 in action, we will be at EHX in Orlando next week at Booth #220. Stop on by, I'll be there if you have any questions.

BluRay and HD-DVD are going to be encoded progressively, as far as I know.

I didn't think that was a given...

John.

One more question, given that HD is still 4:2:0 encoded, any indication if we're going to get the same mess all over again?
Is that MPEG2 or MPEG4 (H.264) or VC-1 codec? HD optical formats support them all.

Here in UK HDTV is being delivered via MPEG4 which could prove interesting, at least no MPEG2 mosquito noise.

StooMonster