I second that motion. I hope this was the right thing to do, I'm not convinced anything will stop those people from trying to annihilate Israel. Good luck and God bless, Ofer.

Dan


Amen on all of that. God bless, Ofer. You need anything, you holler alright? :)


On topic:

I just received Jason's email for the AVS deal on this and I must say: Video and 1080i deinterlacing arguments aside...this price is simply too good to be true. I'm speechless.

You all owe it to yourselves to get this email and see it to truly believe it, whether you plan on buying it or not. :eek: WOW!

I second that WOW. If you are at all interested in the VP30, you'll want to contact Jason Turk NOW. Best part of the deal is that we have enough time to get a look at what shows up at Cedia, and maybe even Algolith will get back in the game (custom resolutions) by then.

Dan

I second that WOW. If you are at all interested in the VP30, you'll want to contact Jason Turk NOW. Best part of the deal is that we have enough time to get a look at what shows up at Cedia, and maybe even Algolith will get back in the game (custom resolutions) by then.

Dan

Heh, the plot thickens. ;)

Who is using "half-baked processing"?

With your Samsung 1080p and the 10-bit scaling/DACs that we are using on the VP30, the difference between the HD/HD+ and VP30 should be huge (you have to use the analog input to drive 1080p). The SiI504 may not be the endall solution to deinterlacing but I agree with many others on the forum that it is a very good deinterlacer and it does not "suck". The VP30 is a very solid video processor and is by no means half baked.

You misunderstood me! I am in for the VP30. I am endorsing your strategy of waiting until you have 1080i motion-adaptive de-interlacing "the right way"
rather then squeeze into the VP30.

I aplogize for the misunderstanding...

I just visited a typical scaler owner yesterday. He has a 65" plasma and doesn't even know he has a scaler (the custom installer put it in for him). He just wants to see a good picture. The VP30, in this case, would actually be better suited for this guy than the iScan HD+.

I guess I am one of those of people who would prefer the VP30 :-)

What advantage would the iSCAN HD+ have over the VP30 ?

I second that WOW. If you are at all interested in the VP30, you'll want to contact Jason Turk NOW. Best part of the deal is that we have enough time to get a look at what shows up at Cedia, and maybe even Algolith will get back in the game (custom resolutions) by then.

Dan

I agree - I just pre-ordered one - price is MUCH better than I was even hoping
for!

Let me jump in - don't care about jaggies, 480i, dcdi vs whatever - just have one NOOB question to Josh, Dale, or anyone else who would know.

I have a projector that accepts DVI-D. Is there ANY problem in converting the HDMI output of the V30 to the DVI input of my pj? Near as I can tell, it should be fine, but would like to know for sure before shelling out the money.

Yeah, I know its a noob q, but humor an old geezer and just give me a thumbs up or down. Thanks.

Jon - There shouldn't be any problems, the iScan VP30 can output an RGB 4:4:4 signal which your DVI-D input is expecting.

One of the bigger problems in video is the cascade of potential rounding errors when extra resolution used in a processing stage needs to be thrown away when data is passed to another processing stage. For example, you multiply two 8 bit input values creating potentially 16 bits of intermediate resolution. You then have to round this value down to 8 bits before sending it on to the scaler. With 10 bits you could preserve some of this extra resolution on the way to the scaler. Finally somebody who understands fixed point (integer) math.

larry

Finally somebody who understands fixed point (integer) math.

larry

You could have posted sooner and enlightened us. ;)

Just to be sure, is the sofware for the vp30 based on the work done on the 2.91 release (so is this the 3.0 release). In other words can we expect the new features added in 2.91 to be available on the vp30 (interlace over hdmi and vertical image shift come to mind).

And am i correct to suspect this is a merge of the old HD+ and denon 5910 code (that was also 10 bits). Last question is there enough extra room on the fpga's to expect more features in the vp30 platform (does it have room to grow).


The VP30 software is based on version 2.91 for the HD+ and will include all of the features included in that release.

You could say that the VP30 is a merge of the HD+ and the 5910 technology.

There is room on the FPGAs for more software features but I do not intend on talking about any features for the VP30 before they are implemented in software.

The VP30 software is based on version 2.91 for the HD+ and will include all of the features included in that release.

You could say that the VP30 is a merge of the HD+ and the 5910 technology.

There is room on the FPGAs for more software features but I do not intend on talking about any features for the VP30 before they are implemented in software.

Thanks for the info, one more question i use a optoma H78 using dvi now so i have to use the provided hdmi->dvi plug. I see that you use the H7x in your ads does that mean you tested this and it works fine on this combo ? Or in general terms how much problems can people expect who now use dvi and need a hdmi->dvi convertor plug moving from a hd/hd+ to a vp30.

Daniel.

The problems that I have seen with HDMI and DVI is when the source is HDMI and the display is DVI. The most common problem is getting video levels on the output which in turn gives you a limited dynamic range (no BTB or WTW). The iScan VP30 can output RGB 4:4:4 (DVI Spec) with either video or PC levels. This means that there should be no issues using the DVI input of your H78. I do have an H79 in my office that I have connected to the HD+ and it did give a better picture then the internal processing. Also if you read the review of the H79 in Widescreen Review there is a reference to the quality improvements that the HD+ gave over the internal processing.

The problems that I have seen with HDMI and DVI is when the source is HDMI and the display is DVI. The most common problem is getting video levels on the output which in turn gives you a limited dynamic range (no BTB or WTW). The iScan VP30 can output RGB 4:4:4 (DVI Spec) with either video or PC levels. This means that there should be no issues using the DVI input of your H78. I do have an H79 in my office that I have connected to the HD+ and it did give a better picture then the internal processing. Also if you read the review of the H79 in Widescreen Review there is a reference to the quality improvements that the HD+ gave over the internal processing.

Yeah i know that is why i use a hd+ on the H78 my question is about the extra hdmi plug we need to use if we upgrade to a vp30 but since you have a H79 at the office im sure that will be tested before its send out to the world.

btw, what do you use on the H79/hd+ combo video or pc levels ? Since the H78/H79 has the you need to press resync to get pc levels bug ?

Greetings,

Daniel.

Does anyone have specific info on a release date? I know it has been mentioned that it will be released in the "fall" but, having already experienced the long wait (and still waiting) for my new Sammy HLR6768 set to arrive several months after the "spring" release date, I wonder when the VP30 will, in reality, be available. I was planning on getting the HD+ and will gladly do so if the VP30 won't be available until Dec or later but if DVDO is rushing to get this out then I will wait and go straight to the VP30. Anyone have predictions, comments, or facts based on previous DVDO release dates?????? Thanks all.

Josh, one more question.

If one sends the HDMI output to a "splitter" and the splitter supports audio then both devices will receive audio? and will there be a way of having two different video resolution "presets" so it can be changed "on the fly"?

Thanks

Well I have a 1080p capable LCD display (Westinghouse 37), and I was really hoping for true 1080i deinterlacing (because I really need it). If I were to buy the VP30 now, I would be doing so knowing I would need to upgrade to the next generation whenever it is released. Assuming a $1,000 trade for the VP30 on the next product, would the $999 in additional cost be worth the improvement over my display's crappie internal scaler for the year or so I use it? (semi-rhetorical question)

vfrjim - If the splitter supports audio then whatever is on the HDMI connection should come out of the splitter. The iScan HD+ does have display profiles that allows you to save up to 4 different groups of settings for the output. The iScan VP30 will have this same functionality.

.............
I just visited a typical scaler owner yesterday. He has a 65" plasma and doesn't even know he has a scaler (the custom installer put it in for him). He just wants to see a good picture. The VP30, in this case, would actually be better suited for this guy than the iScan HD+.

Ofer, I am pretty much like this guy you are talking about. I have a Pan TH-65PHD7UY with a HD+, chosen, on advice on these forums to give me the best PQ I could afford.

Anyway, my question is, what is it about their setup that makes you think the VP30 would be a better option than the HD+? I ask because I wonder if it would also apply to me.

It is also a 4 HDMI switcher. A switcher alone is around $500 that will switch between 4 HDMi inputs.

Anyway, my question is, what is it about their setup that makes you think the VP30 would be a better option than the HD+? I ask because I wonder if it would also apply to me.

I think Ofer was referring to the HD component processing and transcoding, which will allow you to connect everything to the DVI/HDMI or RGHBV input and drive native with no signals passing through. The HDMI switcher functionality certainly comes into play when you add a HD-STB, DVD player, D-VHS, and/or HTPC. Also being able to connect a HTPC and still use just a HDMI/DVI input is another benefit over your current iScan HD+.

You could say that the VP30 is a merge of the HD+ and the 5910 technology.

There is room on the FPGAs for more software features but I do not intend on talking about any features for the VP30 before they are implemented in software.

__________________
Josh Allen
DVDO

(You could say that) does not equal (Absolutely)

iScan HD+ = SiI504
DVD-5910 = 10-bit Scaling by ABT

(iScan HD+)+(DVD-5910)=iScan VP30 :D

Josh,

A friend and I were talking at work, does the Iscan series do mechanical switches for video or do you convert every input to digital first and then do all switching digitally. Being engineers it perk our interest.

DR

Hi Josh!
Do we have to take the SDI module out before trading in the unit? Is there a different price for trading in a unit with SDI?
Thanks.

Sorry, I overlooked your question Vinod.

We are not offering any trade-in credit for the SDI Input module so if you would like to keep it, you should remove it. I am already working on some way to get those who need them, two new plastic standoffs so you don't need to remove them from the video input board, just the card, BNC cable and BNC connector on the back panel. If you have the cover plate that was originally on the back panel, please reinstall it.

I forgot about the standoffs, I guess I am one of the people who will need those.

There is a lot I like about this unit, but the lack of 1080i de-interlacing will probably make it a no sale for me at this point.

I have never used an external video processor before so I don't know if they already do this, but can the VP30 process multiple inputs simultaneously? I would like to be able to, for example, feed a DVD signal through the VP30's HDMI input while being able to see my audio processor's OSD (connected to the VP30's component input).

This might be a can of worms, but I thought I would bring it up. I remember in the Lumagen thread that they wanted to improve some of the deinterlacing. To do this they needed some proprietary information about the Sil504, which they were not given. Hence, they talked about having to do a lot of extra work on reverse engineering things so as to be able to improve the deinterlacing with a software solution. This has not been implemented to my knowledge, but the capability stuck with me.

What I am getting at is, it does seem possible for improvements in deinterlacing even with the current chip on board. Perhaps it might come as a software upgrade, and appear as a new chip after it is stable.

I have never used an external video processor before so I don't know if they already do this, but can the VP30 process multiple inputs simultaneously? I would like to be able to, for example, feed a DVD signal through the VP30's HDMI input while being able to see my audio processor's OSD (connected to the VP30's component input).

The iScan VP30 does not overlay one signal from one input over another signal from another input. I do not see how this could be done reliably unless all A/V receiver manufacturers came up with a standardized OSD only digital output which carried only the OSD, so that it could be overlayed onto another source by a video processor which would also need to have this connection.

I think Ofer was referring to the HD component processing and transcoding, which will allow you to connect everything to the DVI/HDMI or RGHBV input and drive native with no signals passing through. The HDMI switcher functionality certainly comes into play when you add a HD-STB, DVD player, D-VHS, and/or HTPC. Also being able to connect a HTPC and still use just a HDMI/DVI input is another benefit over your current iScan HD+.

Yea, that makes sense.
My inputs into the TH-65PHD7UY are:
Motorola STB 6412 thru DVI @1080i for HD and 480i for SD
Pan DVD-RP91 thru SDI
Roku Media Server thru component @480i

So as I am not input or transcoding challenged, it would seem that I only need the VP30 if there is some PQ improvement due to the 10 bit scaling.

Is that likely?

There is a lot I like about this unit, but the lack of 1080i de-interlacing will probably make it a no sale for me at this point.

Understandable, but again, I say this to you or anyone else:

Regardless of whether you plan on buying or not, you owe it to yourselves to have Jason Turk send you that email. I promise you: You will see a price that truly hits "too good to be true" territory. You WILL be tempted when you see that price. ;)

And yes, ALL of DVDO's normal before and after sales conditions apply! Including upgrades!

Compelling...

I agree with Q & I am ready to be floored when the trade-in is worked out also. At that price I am not going to expect the world considering how much a product with 1080i deinterlacing costs.

Regardless of whether you plan on buying or not, you owe it to yourselves to have Jason Turk send you that email. I promise you: You will see a price that truly hits "too good to be true" territory. You WILL be tempted when you see that price. ;)



Crap! I just ordered an HD+, figuring that the $500+ price jump wasn't worth it in my case. Gah! How do I receive this email? Maybe I'm better off not knowing. ;)

Does Jason Turk check his PMs (still no replies from him), or should I be e-mailing him instead? Do I need to be a Club member to be get info about the deal from him?

Better to email Jason. To my knowledge, the deal is available to all AVS Forum members.

Dan

I have the original IScan Plus. Is the $300 rebate below only for the V2? I don't think I have the V2 as it doesn't say anything on the front panel.

John

How about specifics?

Here are the trade up values towards an iScan VP30:

HD+ = $1000
HD = $750
Ultra = $500
Pro = $400
Plus/V2 = $300

fwiw, I have always interpreted that as meaning either the Plus or the V2 - same credit for either. If I am wrong, apologies, Josh. ;)

and isn't that an amazing tradein, John? I probably would have bought a Lumagen 6 monthes ago, but they always acted like I was an idiot, when I asked about a tradein or upgrade policy.

As far as I am aware there is a trade in programme on old Lumagen against new ones. have no idea if it's as good as this though....Just wanted to clear it up Any queries about that are best on a Lumagen thread.

Gordon

Sorry, Gordon. I just know they don't do the competitive trade in, as DVDO does - and that is what I have to upgrade from - either a Runco or DVDO. Never had a Lumagen to trade in. Apologies if I misspoke or mislead - not my intention.

Sorry guys. I prefer email as I am on their all the time. I only check PM's once in a while but I will go now.

I have the original IScan Plus. Is the $300 rebate below only for the V2? I don't think I have the V2 as it doesn't say anything on the front panel.

John

The Plus and the V2 have the same trade in credit: $300

That's great. Can you let me know what to expect on picture quality for the new VP30 vs the old Iscan Plus? I realize that I can now scale everything to 1080i, but I'm wondering about an apples to apples comparison. Since the IscanPlus only outputs 480p, would there be a significant improvement from the VP30 at 480p? I've noticed on this thread that there is a lot of talk about the deinterlacer being the same as the previous generation, but I'm wondering if that's actually the same deinterlacer that was used way back when in the IscanPlus?

John

The Plus and the V2 have the same trade in credit: $300

Jon - There shouldn't be any problems, the iScan VP30 can output an RGB 4:4:4 signal which your DVI-D input is expecting.

Do all DVD-D inputs expect a 4:4:4? Thanks

Josh

what is the story on rack ears for the VP-30?

do they still have to be ordered separately?

are they the same as for the HD+?

Thanks

Mark

The rackmount kit for the VP30 is the same as the kit used for the HD+, HD and Ultra. The kit does need to be ordered separately.

Do all DVD-D inputs expect a 4:4:4? Thanks

I have not seen a DVI input on a display which accepts an RGB 4:2:2 input signal (there is no such thing).

Josh, I assume that when I feed my HX2U D-ILA with it's native rate signal (1400X788) and I choose 1:1 pixel mapping through the projector it will be effectly mapped 1:1 with no priocessing ocurring on the projector side and will produce the best picture. Is this correct or does it get more complicated than this?

BTW, I would be feeding the unit with a 480i HDMI signal from a Pioneer 59avi

That's great. Can you let me know what to expect on picture quality for the new VP30 vs the old Iscan Plus? I realize that I can now scale everything to 1080i, but I'm wondering about an apples to apples comparison. Since the IscanPlus only outputs 480p, would there be a significant improvement from the VP30 at 480p? I've noticed on this thread that there is a lot of talk about the deinterlacer being the same as the previous generation, but I'm wondering if that's actually the same deinterlacer that was used way back when in the IscanPlus?

If I recall correctly, the iScan Plus used an Sil502 deinterlacer. The iScan-HD, HD+, and VP30 use an Sil504, which has improvements in cadence detection and video mode recovery time.

The VP30 offers switching of multiple input sources, custom resolution scaling, and a great deal of convenience features beyond the old iScan Plus.

Josh, I assume that when I feed my HX2U D-ILA with it's native rate signal (1400X788) and I choose 1:1 pixel mapping through the projector it will be effectly mapped 1:1 with no priocessing ocurring on the projector side and will produce the best picture. Is this correct or does it get more complicated than this?

BTW, I would be feeding the unit with a 480i HDMI signal from a Pioneer 59avi

The JVC HX2 is very easy to setup with an iScan. I have confirmed this by connecting an HD+ to an HX2 and selected 1400x788 and chosing 1:1 pixel mapping on the projector. No changes to the iScan preset are needed and 1:1 pixel mapping can be confirmed with our Checkerboard test pattern.

One other correction to our datasheet: the RGBHV input will not accept a 480i or 576i input signal (Component input 1 and 2 will accept 480i/p, 576i/p, 720p, and 1080i). The RGBHV input will however accept VGA@60Hz, SVGA@60Hz, XGA@60Hz, and SXGA@60Hz in addition to 480p, 576p, 720p, and 1080i. The VESA resolutions are a new addition.

The JVC HX2 is very easy to setup with an iScan. I have confirmed this by connecting an HD+ to an HX2 and selected 1400x788 and chosing 1:1 pixel mapping on the projector. No changes to the iScan preset are needed and 1:1 pixel mapping can be confirmed with our Checkerboard test pattern.

That's great news. Is it easy to tell through the checkerboard pattern that there is a perfect 1:1 mapping? Does this produce a noticable improvement in the image?

I run a scope set up (Prismsonic lens) and right now I have to choose "zoom" as the aspect ratio through the projector so that the 2:35 material is expanded to the full panel. How can this be handled through this new DVDO unit? I would like to keep the 1:1 choice through the projector so the processor would need to stretch the image to full panel before it sends it to the projector. Can this new unit do that? Thanks.

The RGBHV input will however accept VGA, SVGA, XGA, and SXGA in addition to 480p, 576p, 720p, and 1080i. The VESA resolutions are a new addition.

So Josh, I could continue to run my SD Video sources through my Faroudja NRS (1024 x 768 XGA output) and then into the VP30 via RGBHV and retain the DCDi processing for these sources? If true, FANTASTIC.

Dan

Josh,

Will the new VP30 be able to sych at native rate with the Pio 50" plasmas? I was never able to get the HD+ to sych at 1:1 pixel mapping (1280x768) via HDMI. I would love to bypass the media controller and feed the Pio directly. Let me know if you have done any testing?

marty

Marty - I have not done any testing with the Pioneer plasmas. This sounds like a limitation of the input, not of the output on the iScan. It is my understanding that the Pioneers will not accept a 72Hz input signal yet everything is converted to 72Hz internally and the HDMI input will not accept a 1280x768 signal, just 480i/p, 720p and 1080i.

So Josh, I could continue to run my SD Video sources through my Faroudja NRS (1024 x 768 XGA output) and then into the VP30 via RGBHV and retain the DCDi processing for these sources? If true, FANTASTIC.

Dan

You have read correctly and this will work.

Fantastic! Sold!!

Thanks Josh, you da man. :)

As a neophyte and lurker here, I have what I hope is not a stupid question.

I currently have an iScan HD+ with my Sony Grand Wega KF-50WE610, which I'll probably replace next year.

The VP30 only outputs HDMI and component, while my Sony does not have an HDMI in but does have a DVI in and component in's, among others.

If I upgrade to the VP30, what's the best way to get the signal to the Sony. Is there a conversion box or cable that goes from HDMI to DVI? And if so, any recommendations?

Or is it best to go component out to component in?

TIA.

As a neophyte and lurker here, I have what I hope is not a stupid question.

I currently have an iScan HD+ with my Sony Grand Wega KF-50WE610, which I'll probably replace next year.

The VP30 only outputs HDMI and component, while my Sony does not have an HDMI in but does have a DVI in and component in's, among others.

If I upgrade to the VP30, what's the best way to get the signal to the Sony. Is there a conversion box or cable that goes from HDMI to DVI? And if so, any recommendations?

Or is it best to go component out to component in?

TIA.

There are HDMI>DVI adapters that work fine.

Thanks Josh.

I think there is a bunch of us trying to get NR into the Pio's. At CES, I was able to see the Silicon Optics demo with a prototype Dragonfly. They were able to bypass the media converter and synch at 1280x768. I think there is a possibility of feeding the Pio NR @72hz.

I'm still searching for a processor that can do this. I wonder if the upcoming 6th gen Pio's will address this.

marty

The RGBHV input will however accept VGA, SVGA, XGA, and SXGA in addition to 480p, 576p, 720p, and 1080i. The VESA resolutions are a new addition.

... and can they be transcoded/converted to HDMI and scaled to display resolution , say 720p ? The old HD+ HD15 input is a bypass. For this one is it still a bypass ? (I was under the impression it will be processed this time. Just hope to get it confirmed. Thanks.)

This may be an odd question, but are the picture control settings on the VP30 going to have identical values to the HD+?

If I have currently calibrated Video Source #1 on the HD+ to have Brightness = 5, Contrast = 10, and Saturation = 15, will those same values equate to the VP30, or will I have to recalibrate for each source? I have a lot of video sources connected to my HD+, and the thought of have to recalibrate all of them is daunting.

There might be some small differences because of the different scaler. Therefore, picture controls like brightness, contrast, saturation have a higher granularity. However, the range is still the same: -100,+100 (200 steps).
For progressive signals, 480p and 576p, there may be some slight differences because of the new 12-bit video decoder. Of course you will have to make adjustments for 720p and 1080i as they were not processed in your HD+.

... and can they be transcoded/converted to HDMI and scaled to display resolution , say 720p ? The old HD+ HD15 input is a bypass. For this one is it still a bypass ? (I was under the impression it will be processed this time. Just hope to get it confirmed. Thanks.)

The RGBHV/Component (5-BNC) input on the iScan VP30 will process these input resolutions 480p, 576p, 720p, 1080i, VGA, SVGA, XGA, and SXGA. The iScan VP30 can in turn output a processed signal at 720p (or any other resolution between VGA and 1080p) over HDMI to be connected your display. As you can probably tell the RGBHV input is no longer a pass-thru input.

thanks !

This is gd. Now I can play PC games with the PJ.

One other correction to our datasheet: the RGBHV input will not accept a 480i or 576i input signal (Component input 1 and 2 will accept 480i/p, 576i/p, 720p, and 1080i). The RGBHV input will however accept VGA, SVGA, XGA, and SXGA in addition to 480p, 576p, 720p, and 1080i. The VESA resolutions are a new addition.

huh ? are you sure about this ? This would be a step backwards from the HD+ ? This would mean that i can't use RGsB either ? (i use this to input rgb+sync from scart plugs).

Now that i am typing this im guessing that rgb+sync still works but could you please confirm this. Also did rgbhv 576i work on a hd+ ?

Daniel.

Josh,

Will the newer wide screen vga standards of wxga, wxga+, wuxga ever be supported as input resolution instead of just the 4:3 resolutions? They are becoming more popular, even PC games are supporting them.

Josh, one more quick question to confirm. I went back and read the entire thread and couldn't find where you may have answered this before. I'll apologize in advance if you did so. It's a long thread. :)

If my INPUTS are not HDCP encrypted, the OUTPUT of the VP30 over the HDMI/DVI will also not be HDCP encrypted, correct? In other words the VP30 isn't going to ADD HDCP to non HDCP inputs, even over the HDMI output? Very important as my display will be non HDCP.

Thanks.

Dan

huh ? are you sure about this ? This would be a step backwards from the HD+ ? This would mean that i can't use RGsB either ? (i use this to input rgb+sync from scart plugs).

Now that i am typing this im guessing that rgb+sync still works but could you please confirm this. Also did rgbhv 576i work on a hd+ ?

Daniel.

Only the RGBHV/Component input won't process a 480i or 576i signal. Both of the Component inputs, which can also accept RGB/S, will process 480i/p, 576i/p, 720p and 1080i. RGBHV was never processed on the HD or HD+, 576i RGB/S is processed by both the HD and the HD+.

If my INPUTS are not HDCP encrypted, the OUTPUT of the VP30 over the HDMI/DVI will also not be HDCP encrypted, correct? In other words the VP30 isn't going to ADD HDCP to non HDCP inputs, even over the HDMI output?

The iScan VP30's HDMI output will not have HDCP-encryption on it unless the iScan VP30 is processing an HDCP-encrypted source. So if all of your sources are non-HDCP and your display is non-HDCP, the iScan VP30 will not bring HDCP to the party.

There might be some small differences because of the different scaler. Therefore, picture controls like brightness, contrast, saturation have a higher granularity. However, the range is still the same: -100,+100 (200 steps).
For progressive signals, 480p and 576p, there may be some slight differences because of the new 12-bit video decoder. Of course you will have to make adjustments for 720p and 1080i as they were not processed in your HD+.

Fair enough. Thanks.

That's great news. Is it easy to tell through the checkerboard pattern that there is a perfect 1:1 mapping? Does this produce a noticable improvement in the image?

I run a scope set up (Prismsonic lens) and right now I have to choose "zoom" as the aspect ratio through the projector so that the 2:35 material is expanded to the full panel. How can this be handled through this new DVDO unit? I would like to keep the 1:1 choice through the projector so the processor would need to stretch the image to full panel before it sends it to the projector. Can this new unit do that? Thanks.

Josh, in case you missed this question, can you please answer? Thanks.

I was wondering if there was any sort of low latency mode on the VP30. I have a TV which a remarkably slow deinterlacer, which normally fine since the hardware keeps the audio in synch, but it drives me nuts in a few video games. I would really like to turn off all the processing in my set, and for my PS2 input I would like to use an off board scaler to deinterlace and scale it to native rez as quickly as possible potentially AT THE EXPENSE OF IMAGE QUALITY. Of course I would only want to do that for video game inputs ;-)

Thanks

Louis

OK, I preordered a VP30 from Jason at AVS. They are offering a killer deal plus the benefit of working with the best people in the business IMO. A big reason I settled on the DVDO is their policy on trade ups plus the GREAT support we get here from Josh and other DVDO people on this board. I'm confident they'll have a product in reasonable time that will do everything we want and we'll be able to trade up to it at reasonable cost. In the mean time, it's clear the VP30 is no slouch.

Now to order the projector. It's NEW TOY time. :D

Dan

Josh, in case you missed this question, can you please answer? Thanks.

This can be done with the HD+ by vertically stretching the 2.35:1 image to fill the height of the 16:9 panel of the projector to in turn be unsqueezed by the lense. The iScan VP30 software incorporates all of the features that have been released for the HD+ (version 2.91 software) and more to support the features exclusive to the VP30.

OK, I preordered a VP30 from Jason at AVS. They are offering a killer deal plus the benefit of working with the best people in the business IMO. A big reason I settled on the DVDO is their policy on trade ups plus the GREAT support we get here from Josh and other DVDO people on this board. I'm confident they'll have a product in reasonable time that will do everything we want and we'll be able to trade up to it at reasonable cost. In the mean time, it's clear the VP30 is no slouch.

Now to order the projector. It's NEW TOY time. :D

Dan
Dan,
Can you share the details of the deal? Jason has not responded to the two emails I have sent him over the past few days. Any info would be great. My email is youngpsychdoc@yahoo.com Thanks, Matt.

Dan,
Can you share the details of the deal? Jason has not responded to the two emails I have sent him over the past few days. Any info would be great. My email is youngpsychdoc@yahoo.com Thanks, Matt.
Matt,
FWIW, Jason asked us in his reply email to keep the offer details confidential.

But I too found it better than I could imagine before I read it.

I'm sure he'll get back to you - I believe he travels a lot.

My 2 cents

Psychdoc, did you email Jason or PM him? He's a little slow on the PMs because he isn't on line here all the time. I phone him at 3:00 and placed my order, no problem. He's been responding quickly to emails too.

Jason C. Turk
Sales Manager/Installation Manager
A/V Science, Inc.
585-454-1460 ext. 10 (office)
315-538-9806 (direct)
Jason@avscience.com

Psychdoc, did you email Jason or PM him? He's a little slow on the PMs because he isn't on line here all the time. I phone him at 3:00 and placed my order, no problem. He's been responding quickly to emails too.

Jason C. Turk
Sales Manager/Installation Manager
A/V Science, Inc.
585-454-1460 ext. 10 (office)
315-538-9806 (direct)
Jason@avscience.com

Exactly. EMAIL or phone call all the way. Don't hesitate to leave a message on his voicemail. I did that this morning and he called me back in less than 10 minutes! Nice guy! :)

I just wanted to chime in that I too ordered the VP30 from Jason this morning. I telephoned him and provided my name, address, and credit card number. Transaction was very quick and professional. Good job, Jason!

Thanks all. I actually sent him two emails, one on Monday and one yesterday. I guess I will try to call him. I will persist however. It sounds like this deal is worth it. Thanks again, Matt.

Trust me, this deal is worth it. :)

Dan

I second Dan. This deal is worth it. I am just waiting to get the details on the trade-in also before I put my order in.

I agree with Dan and Vinod. I was going to get the HD+ a month or so ago but decided to wait on the chance that a new and improved model would be coming. It did! And the best part is the deal. Boy am I glad I waited! My order went in today.

Mike

Will the newer wide screen vga standards of wxga, wxga+, wuxga ever be supported as input resolution instead of just the 4:3 resolutions?

I am working on getting an answer for you.

I have another "bonus" feature for the iScan VP30 (not on the datasheet). The HDMI inputs will accept these input signals:

480i/p, 576i/p, 720p, 1080i, VGA@60Hz, SVGA@60Hz, XGA@60Hz, SXGA@60Hz
RGB 4:4:4/YCbCr 4:4:4/YCbCr 4:2:2

Josh,

I'm sorry I might have missed this but will the VP30 take a dvi signal and convert to analog out. Of course, given that the DVI signal is NOT HDCP encrypted?

Andy

I have another "bonus" feature for the iScan VP30 (not on the datasheet). The HDMI inputs will accept these input signals:

480i/p, 576i/p, 720p, 1080i, VGA@60Hz, SVGA@60Hz, XGA@60Hz, SXGA@60Hz
RGB 4:4:4/YCbCr 4:4:4/YCbCr 4:2:2
How about SXGA+? :)

How about a preset for plasmas with 1365x768 native res, such as my NEC 50XR4 :)

Trust me, this deal is worth it. :)

Dan

Just curious,

Why is this deal not posted for AVS Club Members. After all, is that not one of the benefits?

-- Rich

Hopefully Jason will get the trade in specifics worked out for this deal soon. I defintely want to order it but need to wait for the specifics about trade-in.

How about a preset for plasmas with 1365x768 native res, such as my NEC 50XR4 :)

All you need to do is change the horizontal width by one pixel on the existing preset 1366x768 to get 1365x768 output.

Rich, that's a good question. You may want to put it to Jason.

Dan

any info you can give us on first ship dates?

Josh,

I'm sorry I might have missed this but will the VP30 take a dvi signal and convert to analog out. Of course, given that the DVI signal is NOT HDCP encrypted?

Andy

Yes the VP30 can do that we these input signals (given that there is not HDCP on the signal):

480i/p, 576i/p, 720p, 1080i, VGA@60Hz, SVGA@60Hz, XGA@60Hz, SXGA@60Hz
RGB 4:4:4/YCbCr 4:4:4/YCbCr 4:2:2

The HD can do this with 480p and 576p, and the HD+ can do this with 480i/p, 576i/p, 720p, and 1080i.

any info you can give us on first ship dates?

Jason had told me over the phone that, if all went well *knocks on wood*...shortly after CEDIA in about the third week of September or so. Hopefully. ;)

All you need to do is change the horizontal width by one pixel on the existing preset 1366x768 to get 1365x768 output.

Josh,

Can you confirm this as tested with an NEC Plasma? 1365x768 is not programmed as a resolution according to NEC and their model info sheets. On my 61XM2/S 1360x768 is the best you can do for NR. You lose 2 pixel rows on the left and 3 pixel rows on the right.

If you have found a workaround for this, please let us know.

Just curious,

Why is this deal not posted for AVS Club Members. After all, is that not one of the benefits?

-- Rich

There is no Power Buy going on - just great pricing from AVS/DVDO!

Josh,

Can you confirm this as tested with an NEC Plasma? 1365x768 is not programmed as a resolution according to NEC and their model info sheets. On my 61XM2/S 1360x768 is the best you can do for NR. You lose 2 pixel rows on the left and 3 pixel rows on the right.

If you have found a workaround for this, please let us know.

From what I have seen, the limitation is never the iScan it is always the input on the display. I have not found away to force the NEC to fill its full width when driven native.

There is no Power Buy going on - just great pricing from AVS/DVDO!

I can't see how anyone could beat the AVS preorder price without the use of a ski mask and shotgun or hitting that White Van Parking Lot Special. ;)

Call or email Jason Turk and you'll see what I mean. They CAN'T sell it much lower than that without taking an outright loss. I still can't believe it!

I have the following components hooked up to my HD+ going HDMI to my Panasonic TH-42PX50U:

1. PS2 hooked up component doing 480P on compatible movies and games
2. Philips Progressive Scan DVP-642 DVD Player (for Divx) hooked up component
3. Toshiba RS-TX20 Tivo DVD Burner (upgraded to 400 hours :)) Hooked up component
4. Comcast Motorola Dual Tuner HD DVR (DVI out)
5. Denon AVR 3805

Could someone please tell me the advantage for me of upgrading, btw, Panasonic plasmas do not accept their native resolution for some strange reason...

Thanks in advance!
J

If I were to hook the VP30 (or the HD+) up to my Samsung 32" LCD, which runs 1280x768 native, would I choose the included 1280x768 preset and adjust the output aspect ratio to 15:9, or would I be better off inputting a 100% custom resolution? I have all of the output timing numbers that I have been using with my Momitsu V880.

Could someone please tell me the advantage for me of upgrading

If those are the only components you plan to own, the HD+ should tide you over. You wouldn't really need a VP30 until you start adding more DVI/HDMI input sources, or analog HD sources.

I believe you meant "Panasonic consumer plasmas do not accept their native resolution for some strange reason..."

That's just one of the many reasons to get a Panasonic commercial (6UY, 7UY, etc) plasma.

Josh,
I do have a question about the VP30. Does it, like the HD+, have a lip sync feature???? This is required with some sources in the new Sammy HLR models. I already signed up for one (thank you Jason) but I just need to make sure I have all my 'ducks in a row'. Thanks again all!!! Matt.

Josh,
I do have a question about the VP30. Does it, like the HD+, have a lip sync feature???? This is required with some sources in the new Sammy HLR models. I already signed up for one (thank you Jason) but I just need to make sure I have all my 'ducks in a row'. Thanks again all!!! Matt.

Precision A/V Lipsync is on the VP30 just like it is on the HD and HD+.

From what I have seen, the limitation is never the iScan it is always the input on the display. I have not found away to force the NEC to fill its full width when driven native.

What is interesting about this is that NEC has published timings for 1365 x 768. I posted them last year on the native rate thread. The manufacturers who use NEC to make their products (Dwin, Faroujda, and Runco, I believe) use this timing according to the email I got from NEC. However, it doesn't work with the NEC. I wish I knew why. I have never gotten an answer on this from either NEC or Pioneer. I would love it if someone could figure this out.

I believe you meant "Panasonic consumer plasmas do not accept their native resolution for some strange reason..."

That's just one of the many reasons to get a Panasonic commercial (6UY, 7UY, etc) plasma.

I just checked the specs on the new (not out yet) Panasonic TH-50PHD8UK, and among digital boards, only the DVI/HDCP board accepts the display's native rate (1366 x 768). The HDMI board does not.

Is this going to be a problem with the VP30? I know there are HDMI to DVI converters, but also heard that they cause black crush on some displays.

Has DVDO checked out the HDMI to DVI conversion before installing HDMI as the only digital output?

The "black crush" issue is solely dependent on the source (feeding) device. Silicon Image was told about this bug nearly a year before the introduction of HDMI outputs (by Stacey Spears). They chose not to fix the issue before product introduction. I believe the newer products with HDMI ouitputs have been corrected to output digital video signals (16 - 235) instead of digital PC signals (0 - 255, which doesn't allow Below Black and Peak White signals). I doubt that DVDO would be using HDMI chips that still have this bug.

There is one person who says the HDMI boards can accept native rate. I can't confirm that, but anything's possible. If it turns out to be true, the HDMI board would actually be better than the DVI-HDCP board. The reason is that even though the plasma uses 10-bit processing, the DVI-HDCP board needs an 8-bit RGB input whereas the HDMI board can accept a 10-bit YCbCr input.

Very interesting information, Joe! Do you know whether Pioneer's HDMI input accepts 10bit YCbCr, too?

All HDMI inputs will accept a 10-bit YCbCr input. HDMI does allow for up to 12-bit, but I don't know if it's mandatory for the chips. Silicon Image has a "monopoly production" on the chips, but Toshiba is producing them (in lesser quantities) as well.

You might want to check Pioneer's site. It's been a while since I've seen it, but I believe they had some info (input specs, etc) on the HDMI inputs of their plasmas.

The "black crush" issue is solely dependent on the source (feeding) device. Silicon Image was told about this bug nearly a year before the introduction of HDMI outputs (by Stacey Spears). They chose not to fix the issue before product introduction. I believe the newer products with HDMI ouitputs have been corrected to output digital video signals (16 - 235) instead of digital PC signals (0 - 255, which doesn't allow Below Black and Peak White signals). I doubt that DVDO would be using HDMI chips that still have this bug.

There is one person who says the HDMI boards can accept native rate. I can't confirm that, but anything's possible. If it turns out to be true, the HDMI board would actually be better than the DVI-HDCP board. The reason is that even though the plasma uses 10-bit processing, the DVI-HDCP board needs an 8-bit RGB input whereas the HDMI board can accept a 10-bit YCbCr input.

Thanks, Joe.

Can DVDO comment on this?

Also - how does one choose an 8-bit RGB output in the VP30 HDMI should one choose to use the DVI-HDCP board in the 50" Panny for native rate?

Here's hoping that the Panny HDMI board accepts 1366 x 768 from VP30.

"Also - how does one choose an 8-bit RGB output in the VP30 HDMI should one choose to use the DVI-HDCP board in the 50" Panny for native rate?"

HDMI chips are auto-sensing. I don't think you can force YCbCr with an RGB-only input.


"Here's hoping that the Panny HDMI board accepts 1366 x 768 from VP30."

I'm going to ask a Panasonic tech this very question.

when you select what type of DVI display (on all DVDO products) - you can specify if you want PC (full 255 levels) or "regular" (less the first 16 levels).

ofer
Both formats use the full 0 - 255 space: however, 0 and 255 are supposed to be reserved (although they are encodable).

In the digital PC format, 1 is black and 254 is white. There is no provision for displaying Below Black and Peak White signals. There are artifacts produced from changing to or from the digital video format to or from the digital PC format.

In the digital video format, 16 is black and 235 is white. Values 1 - 15 are called Below Black and are used to compensate for black dipping below the reference level (16). Values 236 - 254 are called Peak White and are used to compensate for white peaking above the reference level (235).

You should always choose digital video levels, unless your display forces you to send it digital PC levels.

But don't you lose information by reducing the range?

ofer
Both formats use the full 0 - 255 space: however, 0 and 255 are supposed to be reserved (although they are encodable).

In the digital PC format, 1 is black and 254 is white. There is no provision for displaying Below Black and Peak White signals. There are artifacts produced from changing to or from the digital video format to or from the digital PC format.

In the digital video format, 16 is black and 235 is white. Values 1 - 15 are called Below Black and are used to compensate for black dipping below the reference level (16). Values 236 - 254 are called Peak White and are used to compensate for white peaking above the reference level (235).

You should always choose digital video levels, unless your display forces you to send it digital PC levels.


Is there a consensus what is best if you have both options ? I use a sdi -> hd+ -> optoma H78 and used both but ended up in pc levels in the end.

Daniel.

Q#1: no
Q#2: yes, the experts say digital video levels


DVD, HDTV and the next gen formats are based on digital video levels, not digital PC levels. Read the Source Guide and click on the links within for more information. If you still come away after reading it that digital PC levels are the way to go, then people like Joe Kane, Guy Kuo, Greg Rogers, Stacey Spears, Don Munsil, etc need to quit their jobs because they obviously don't know what the hell they're talking about.

I'm done with getting into arguments about digital video levels vs digital PC levels. The discussions go on and on and round and round because the majority of PC people don't understand the film process and in most cases, ironically, digital encode/decode.

Here's a link to the Source Guide on the DVD Hardware forum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=494606

Here's hoping that the Panny HDMI board accepts 1366 x 768 from VP30.

Got the reply, but even he says it's doubtful. The consumer versions will only accept up to 1344 :eek: (of that he's sure) and he's pretty sure the commercial versions won't do 1366. He did say, however, that they are still trying to do some testing to see if it's possible. I know that sounds crazy, but, according to him, Panasonic (Japan) is selling the commercial HDMI cards faster than they're making them. It's not like they have several cards sitting around at Panasonic (US) to play with.

If I come across the person who says it's possible, I'll get the details. Until then, don't hold your breath. :)

I just checked the specs on the new (not out yet) Panasonic TH-50PHD8UK, and among digital boards, only the DVI/HDCP board accepts the display's native rate (1366 x 768). The HDMI board does not.
Also note that the DVI/HDCP board only accepts native rate at 60Hz.

Also note that the DVI/HDCP board only accepts native rate at 60Hz.


Can the VP30 do the frequency conversion from 50 to 60Hz with little or no judder?

Josh, a similar question: The Canon SX50 specifies this for the 1400 x 1050 native input signal:

Horizontal Frequency: 63.981 kHz
Vertical Frequency: 60.02 kHz

Is the VP30 able to output 1400 x 1050 at these frequencies?

Thanks.

Dan

Dan - I am very sure that the VP30 can. My display at home will not accept this input signal so I can't confirm right now, but I will this week. The two adjustments necessary to create this output (which others may be able to confirm before me on their HDs or HD+s) is:

1. Choose 1400x1050 as your output resolution

Output Setup->Format->1400x1050

2. Change the framerate from 59.94 to 60.02

Output Setup->Framerate->60Hz->Unlock->60.02

You can then confirm that you have the right vertical and horizontal output frequency by pressing the 'Info' button

Can the VP30 do the frequency conversion from 50 to 60Hz with little or no judder?

Yes, the VP30 (like the HD and HD+) can do PAL->NTSC and NTSC->PAL conversion. From what I have seen, there is minimal judder.

Wow, thanks Josh for a great answer.

Dan

Josh, I sent you a few emails in regards to this unit. I need to speak to you in person about this if you could please contact me tomorrow at 315-538-9806. I have not been able to get hold of you.

Does the new iscan have built in test patterns to use for calibrating cable, satellite, etc?

Josh,

I had problems with HDCP authentication and HDTV with the HD+. What is the prospect of the issue being fixed in the VP30?

I tried the HD+ with my Panasonic AE700 pj (firmware v 1.07), but there were issues with HDTV and HDMI input from DVD - neither worked.

Service applied the patch to the 2.32 software, but it still didn't work. SD TV did look much better :o .

The HD+ went back for the bugs and the fact that I wanted HDMI support instead of DVI to match both PJ and DVD player.

I'm hanging on to the Panny until PJs are 1080p with Brilliant Color wheels. Do you recommend waiting on the scaler too?

Thanks and best.

Q#1: no

Depends on how you look at it.

It would have been far better if DVDs were encoded with a 0-255 range since this would obviously give more contrast.

But unfortunately that is not the case, instead we have this "trust us we know better (and get paid for it lavishly) but we feel to high to explain" attitude from the so-called experts who want to make us "understand" that 256 steps of resolution are really the same as 226 steps of resolution. :rolleyes:

I have NEVER, EVER seen a rational explanation why on earth we need 15 steps of below black and 15 steps of above white.
I think it was a goofy decision in the first place which is now rationalized (by some) with quack science or with appeals to authority.

Did you read the Go-to Guide for Source Options that Joe provided a link for?

Josh,

I had problems with HDCP authentication and HDTV with the HD+. What is the prospect of the issue being fixed in the VP30?

I tried the HD+ with my Panasonic AE700 pj (firmware v 1.07), but there were issues with HDTV and HDMI input from DVD - neither worked.

Service applied the patch to the 2.32 software, but it still didn't work. SD TV did look much better :o .

The HD+ went back for the bugs and the fact that I wanted HDMI support instead of DVI to match both PJ and DVD player.

I'm hanging on to the Panny until PJs are 1080p with Brilliant Color wheels. Do you recommend waiting on the scaler too?

Thanks and best.


I used a Denon 5900 sdi modified into a HD+, then DVI to HDMI cable to the AE700 projector without any problems. Worked fine.

If you had a problem doing the same, it would suggest that something else was broke.

Did you read the Go-to Guide for Source Options that Joe provided a link for?
I just did and placed my comments at the end.

By the way, I do not dispute the recommendation to use video levels instead of PC levels. I dispute that shaving off 16 levels both at the bottom and the top is necessary or a good idea.
But what it boils down to is that we simply have to live with a, in my opinion, bad decision made in the past. :)

By the way I suggest we continue the discussion about this in the appropriate topic, this one is about the new VP30. :)

I used a Denon 5900 sdi modified into a HD+, then DVI to HDMI cable to the AE700 projector without any problems. Worked fine.

If you had a problem doing the same, it would suggest that something else was broke.

jim he had a HDCP issue. Your SDI mod has no HDCP so there is no issue.

yzurdiaga, in the AE700 thread (in display forum) there were some mentioning of HDCP issues. I can't remember the details but it seems the firmware plays a part. Did u try anything on the panny side ?

Josh, I sent you a few emails in regards to this unit. I need to speak to you in person about this if you could please contact me tomorrow at 315-538-9806. I have not been able to get hold of you.

Is everything ok?

Here's hoping that the Panny HDMI board accepts 1366 x 768 from VP30.

Got the reply, but even he says it's doubtful. The consumer versions will only accept up to 1344 :eek: (of that he's sure) and he's pretty sure the commercial versions won't do 1366. He did say, however, that they are still trying to do some testing to see if it's possible. I know that sounds crazy, but, according to him, Panasonic (Japan) is selling the commercial HDMI cards faster than they're making them. It's not like they have several cards sitting around at Panasonic (US) to play with.

If I come across the person who says it's possible, I'll get the details. Until then, don't hold your breath. :)
I'm running 1366x768 from an HD+ into my commercial 507UY Panasonic through the HDMI board. Native rate works like a champ through HDMI. Too bad Panasonic doesn't know that.

Steve
You're the one!

I'll make the Panasonic tech aware of your good news and maybe we can get some resolution, if you'll pardon the pun, on this issue.

Crap! Almost forgot: please post your settings here, in the Native Rate thread or both.

Depends on how you look at it.

It would have been far better if DVDs were encoded with a 0-255 range since this would obviously give more contrast.

But unfortunately that is not the case, instead we have this "trust us we know better (and get paid for it lavishly) but we feel to high to explain" attitude from the so-called experts who want to make us "understand" that 256 steps of resolution are really the same as 226 steps of resolution. :rolleyes:

I have NEVER, EVER seen a rational explanation why on earth we need 15 steps of below black and 15 steps of above white.
I think it was a goofy decision in the first place which is now rationalized (by some) with quack science or with appeals to authority.

It is real simple. The reference for video and playback of video is a Sony CRT direct view monitor. Unlike digital monitors that simply clip at a given level, the Sony has range that simply fades off. This extends below the point we call black and above what we call white in the digital realm. With a digital display you can set your clipping levels to the definitive black and white level or you can allow for the information that is present in the reference. So Studio RGB levels, which are referenced to a monitor that does not have definitive clipping levels, allows for this head and toe room that is in the reference.

I don't understand why this is so hard for people to understand. It made perfect sense to me the first time I heard it. It is also very easy to understand why this isn't an issue in the PC world as their reference isn't a Sony monitor that is used for all masters. Just like when you calibrate your audio to a reference that is also used in the recording studio, you want to calibrate your monitor to the same reference used when they mastered the video you watch, that way you get what was intended. It doesn't really have to make sense to you in the end, it just is what it is. Some of us get it though, I didn't think it was that tough.

"Depends on how you look at it."

Exactly. If you look at it the right way, it makes perfect sense. If you look at it the wrong way, you try to drag people into never-ending circular debates that waste peoples' time.

Like Kris said, "It doesn't really have to make sense to you in the end, it just is what it is. Some of us get it though...".

I'm running 1366x768 from an HD+ into my commercial 507UY Panasonic through the HDMI board. Native rate works like a champ through HDMI. Too bad Panasonic doesn't know that.
But only with 60Hz, I guess? Could you please try with 50Hz for us Europeans? Thanks!!

Josh, does the comb filter in VP30 work on PAL also ? (I understand most of the comb filters in US products are NTSC only)

I don't understand why this is so hard for people to understand. It made perfect sense to me the first time I heard it. It is also very easy to understand why this isn't an issue in the PC world as their reference isn't a Sony monitor that is used for all masters. Just like when you calibrate your audio to a reference that is also used in the recording studio, you want to calibrate your monitor to the same reference used when they mastered the video you watch, that way you get what was intended. It doesn't really have to make sense to you in the end, it just is what it is. Some of us get it though, I didn't think it was that tough.

with the risk of getting yelled at again :), what i don't understand (even after reading) is why this is needed in the 'second' step of the process. I understand that sdi is using video levels but thats on the input side. why can't a scaler like the hd+ not recast these to the full 255 options for the output side ? so take in 226 steps convert them to 255 steps do the processing and output pc levels this would make for more tuning options and more dynamic range. I understand that the input signal will not change but it seems weird to me that the scaler can't do anything useful with these extra values.

Daniel.

It is real simple. The reference for video and playback of video is a Sony CRT direct view monitor. Unlike digital monitors that simply clip at a given level, the Sony has range that simply fades off. This extends below the point we call black and above what we call white in the digital realm. With a digital display you can set your clipping levels to the definitive black and white level or you can allow for the information that is present in the reference. So Studio RGB levels, which are referenced to a monitor that does not have definitive clipping levels, allows for this head and toe room that is in the reference.

Right, so that means we are stuck with an outdated mechanism that works for CRTs and is no longer appropriate for modern day displays.

On a slightly different topic, is it a given that the new VP30 will be able to pass through the next generation DTS HD+ and Dolby Digital version audio from HD DVD, if it ever becomes available? I just don't want any surprises down the road.

Thanks,
Ray

Daniel,

Its my understanding that the VP30 can do just that. Convert the input SDI to output 0-255 PC levels. Its a selectable option as far as I know.

It is real simple. The reference for video and playback of video is a Sony CRT direct view monitor. Unlike digital monitors that simply clip at a given level, the Sony has range that simply fades off. This extends below the point we call black and above what we call white in the digital realm. With a digital display you can set your clipping levels to the definitive black and white level or you can allow for the information that is present in the reference. So Studio RGB levels, which are referenced to a monitor that does not have definitive clipping levels, allows for this head and toe room that is in the reference.

I don't understand why this is so hard for people to understand.
It is not about it being hard to understand it is about the absurdity of it.

IMHO it is a principle error to adjust the digitizing process for a particular target display device. Anomalies of a display device ought to be handled at the device level not at the level of encoding.

Imagine by analogy we would have all CDs mastered by using some old tube reference amplifier and speaker set. We would make them 14 bit and two special bits to handle the dynamic range anomalies of that particular tube amplifier and speaker set. Would that make any sense?

The right way of doing this would be to capture the video source at a higher bit rate, then apply proper compression and normalization to convert it into an 8-bit resolution.

It is not about it being hard to understand it is about the absurdity of it.

IMHO it is a principle error to adjust the digitizing process for a particular target display device. Anomalies of a display device ought to be handled at the device level not at the level of encoding.

Imagine by analogy we would have all CDs mastered by using some old tube reference amplifier and speaker set. We would make them 14 bit and two special bits to handle the dynamic range anomalies of that particular tube amplifier and sepaker set. Would that make any sense?

The right way of doing this would be to capture the video source at a higher bit rate, then apply proper compression and normalization to convert it into an 8-bit resolution.
There may come a day in the future where things are mastered using a digital display, but for now at least they still use CRT monitors. Run off area is needed to properly master on them.

Steve
You're the one!

I'll make the Panasonic tech aware of your good news and maybe we can get some resolution, if you'll pardon the pun, on this issue.

Crap! Almost forgot: please post your settings here, in the Native Rate thread or both.
I'll start by posting in this thread. This also consolidates information I got from various posts in the native rate thread. I'll cross post.

I have a TH-50PHD7UY with an HDMI board inputting at 60Hz. As I recall vertical was fine (as tested with the horizontal line pattern)--I didn't need to change anything other than probably shift the picture a little. Horizontal was also very close and there are a number of ways of fixing it; the total is what I think really matters. My settings are:

H-Front: 36
H-Sync: 112
H-Back: 278
H-Total: 1792

V-Front: 4 (or 3, see below)
V-Sync: 18
V-Back: 17
V-Total: 807 (or 806, see below)

I changed my v-front to 3 (for a total of 806) based on the settings below and it had no effect on either the horizontal or vertical lines test patterns.


In the Native Rate people mentioned their settings for a Panasonic. The first of these is definitely using DVI and they have different numbers than I did (and the various posters had different number than each other, for that matter).

The first (TH-50PHD6UY on DVI):

HFront: 38
HSync: 184
HBack: 220
(total 1808)

VFront: 3
VSync: 6
VBack: 29
(total 806)

Another had (7UY, likely on DVI):

H-Size: 768
H-Front: 34
H-Sync: 112
H-Back: 282
H-Total: 1794

V-Size: 768
V-Front: 3
V-Sync: 4
V-Back: 31
V-Total: 806

A third had (7UY on DVI):

H-Size: 1366
H-Front: 34
H-Sync: 112
H-Back: 282
H-Total: 1794

V-Size: 768
V-Front: 3
V-Sync: 4
V-Back: 31
V-Total: 806

As you'll see people used various settings to get it to work. If I used the last two my picture would have been shifted two pixels. If I used the first set the vertical line pattern would have been wrong (as would the geometry). The settings in the display can affect it too; if someone has their display settings changed it can affect the needed settings in the iScan. For example I'd guess that the first person has their h-size in the display settings different than mine. I configured it so that if I normalized the display everything would be perfect.

I recently re-applied the settings after resetting the HD+; I didn't get a picture at all until I adjusted the vertical settings to be pretty close to what I've listed above.

The right way of doing this would be to capture the video source at a higher bit rate, then apply proper compression and normalization to convert it into an 8-bit resolution.

That is the way it is done. The only thing we're talking about here is setting up the monitor to the reference. It has nothing to do with the capture.

As for converting to 0-255, that would actually truncate dynamic range, not help it. The only thing converting studio RGB to PC RGB levels does is eliminates the dynamic range present in the opposite ends of the signal to compensate for the lack of dynamic range in the digital device! It isn't like new information is added. Studio RGB still uses the entire range of signal, it just has more information in the bottom and top end.

Imagine by analogy we would have all CDs mastered by using some old tube reference amplifier and speaker set. We would make them 14 bit and two special bits to handle the dynamic range anomalies of that particular tube amplifier and speaker set. Would that make any sense?

CDs really don't have any real reference when it comes to mastering hence the complete lack of consistency with playback levels. Personally I find it completely frustrating too. Seems like every CD I put in is completely different in terms of playback levels whereas movies are the exact opposite. Movie soundtracks are recorded to a reference level that has been clearly established, just like the video levels. There are exceptions, most of which derive from re-EQ'ing for the home theater enviroment or poor mastering, but these are few and far between.

I am sure at one point the industry will move away from the Sony monitor for its mastering process, but until a digital display catches up to the quality of that monitor it won't happen. I love digital displays but they have issues in latency, contrast, and bit depth that this monitor doesn't have. They are catching up though.

Can we please get this thread back to the VP30?

So what's the difference between the VP30 and the HD+ in terms of picture quality as it applies to converting 480i to either 720p or 1080p.

Josh already addressed this. The only difference is the new scaling engine, which may or may not give you a substantial difference.

CDs really don't have any real reference when it comes to mastering hence the complete lack of consistency with playback levels. Personally I find it completely frustrating too. Seems like every CD I put in is completely different in terms of playback levels whereas movies are the exact opposite. Movie soundtracks are recorded to a reference level that has been clearly established, just like the video levels. There are exceptions, most of which derive from re-EQ'ing for the home theater enviroment or poor mastering, but these are few and far between.



SMPTE RP155 (-20dBfs=0VU=+4dBu) is a reference for one, and indeed audio like anything else needs a reference. So that when decoded all the upstream professional gear will have the correct (+4dBu) or consumer (-10dBV) level.

Just like video, audio competes with the digital noise floor. It's not possible to improve the S/N ratio with a "bit depth scheme"
Also, this is WHY CD's mastered these days are done by "incompetence" and the dynamic range is compressed and useless.

As stated below, the tube amp analogy is a perfect one, to illustrate how bit depth is always at battle with the noise floor.

thomas

Several of the posts on the last page or so of this thread are really just fallout from this:

It isn't a fallout. It seems that the current standard in video was not understood and I posted the reasons why. This has nothing to do with the other thread, it dealt with the questions being raised. If you haven't noticed, most threads on AVS go in different directions all the time, especially when they're about a product that isn't even available yet. You can only get so much information about something that no one has.

It isn't a fallout. It seems that the current standard in video was not understood and I posted the reasons why. This has nothing to do with the other thread, it dealt with the questions being raised. If you haven't noticed, most threads on AVS go in different directions all the time, especially when they're about a product that isn't even available yet. You can only get so much information about something that no one has.

Fair enough.

I couldn't help but notice that it was you and htpcfan "crossing swords" yet again.

My apologies if there was any offense. As is, the last page or so has certainly been quite educational, and I thank you all for that. :)

No biggie, I wasn't offended by it. It was more coincidence that it was HTPCfan, I would have said the same to anyone. The whole video level debate had been getting old lately though. :)

No biggie, I wasn't offended by it. It was more coincidence that it was HTPCfan, I would have said the same to anyone. The whole video level debate had been getting old lately though. :)

Aye sir, that it has. :)

No biggie, I wasn't offended by it. It was more coincidence that it was HTPCfan, I would have said the same to anyone. The whole video level debate had been getting old lately though. :)
And NOT just on this forum!!! :(

Thanks for posting your settings, Steve.

I don't think it'd be such a hot button issue if the impact of mismatching levels didn't have such a large (negative) impact on picture quality...

TM

I have the trade in details all finalized. I am working on posting them now, so please check the sticky I will have up shortly.

Besides the new scaling engine, you should now be able to bypass the YUV to RGB to YUV conversion that has to take place with the HD+.

The HD+ DVI input is RGB. If you send 480i, 720p or 1080i to the DVI input, it will get converted to RGB by the source. The iScan then converts that back to YUV to perform deinterlacing or scaling. It then converts it back to RGB for the DVI output. Those like me with HD TiVo's will now keep the HD signal as 4:2:2 over HDMI into the iScan and it may go RGB on the way out. (if the display is DVI only in)

Hey Jason......... how about coming up with a trade-up deal on Denon?

I would like to trade up from my 3805 to the 4306!

I pre-ordered the VP-30 and already I have questions for the next product. Any plans on splitting a single output into multiple outputs, blended or not? This would be perfect for those working with multiple monitors or CRT projectors.

Hey Jason......... how about coming up with a trade-up deal on Denon?

I would like to trade up from my 3805 to the 4306!
I wish. :) The 4306 looks pretty darn cool and isn't too bad a price either.

I have the trade in details all finalized. I am working on posting them now, so please check the sticky I will have up shortly.

And what about canadian AVS members? On the link to DVDO, they clearly say "and is only valid for U.S. residents"...

We are also AVS members... :(

I belive that Canadian customers can still take advantage of this (I will confirm). Other than North American customers, the trade in is not valid right now. They can purchase direct though.

Ok, another noob question.

I have an older Philips HD RPTV that only accepts analog input, works fine with my HD.

If I got a VP30, will I be able to accept (non-HDCP) HDMI inputs and send them out via the analog output?

Thanks!

Eric

Jason - thanks, have placed my trade-in order. Hope DVDO gives you some credit for doing the legwork ;)

If I got a VP30, will I be able to accept (non-HDCP) HDMI inputs and send them out via the analog output?


As long as their is no HDCP on the incoming digital signal, the iScan VP30 can output the signal either digital or analog with either component or RGB colorspace.

Any plans on splitting a single output into multiple outputs, blended or not?

It is certainly a very interesting idea.

Josh,

Will the VP30 accept a 1080p source? I know it wont process the signal, just want to know if it will accept and just pass it thru?

Just of curiosity can 1080p be pass thru componnent cables?

AR

Besides the new scaling engine, you should now be able to bypass the YUV to RGB to YUV conversion that has to take place with the HD+.

The HD+ DVI input is RGB. If you send 480i, 720p or 1080i to the DVI input, it will get converted to RGB by the source. The iScan then converts that back to YUV to perform deinterlacing or scaling. It then converts it back to RGB for the DVI output. Those like me with HD TiVo's will now keep the HD signal as 4:2:2 over HDMI into the iScan and it may go RGB on the way out. (if the display is DVI only in)

when the src has no user option to say RGB or YCbCr ( pio 59avi), I guess the HDMI connection will be auto-negotiated correct ? In this case what will the connection be ? default to YUV or RGB ?

And what about canadian AVS members? On the link to DVDO, they clearly say "and is only valid for U.S. residents"...

We are also AVS members... :(

Apparently there are no international trades right now but they are working on it. I also am working on something for Canadian customers, so stay tuned.

What's the maximum audio delay on the VP30? A bit longer than the maximum 127 millisecond delay on the iScan HD+ in film mode would be nice.

Thanks,
Collin

Josh, does the comb filter in VP30 work on PAL also ? (I understand most of the comb filters in US products are NTSC only)

Yes, the comb filter in the VP30 does work for PAL.

Just wanted to say, *yes* I have read through the entire thread before asking.

I've lately found that I am in the market for a video processor since I use both a Sony HS-51 and a Dell 2005FPW. The HS-51 needs the scan fixing for a 1:1 HDMI, and the Dell 2005FPW does not accept Component, nor low the kHz of transcoded 480i over RGBHV/RGBS, as well as having piss poor deint/scaling of composite/svideo.

Also because I am a bit tired of all the extra black boxes, and transcoders.

I just want confirmation that it will work for my specific case.

Normal Gaming PC using VESA resolutions VGA/DVI -> DVI/HDMI
HTPC DVI-out 1280x720@59.94 -> Correctly over/underscanned for HS-51 on DVI/HDMI
Component 480i/480p/780p/1080i -> DVI/HDMI
Composite/SVideo 480i/PAL -> DVI/HDMI
RGBS over DSUB15 -> DVI/HDMI

I'm basically a huge gaming fan, and it simply must work correctly across the board from a lowly Nintendo -> Next Gen that is using HDMI. Obviously I don't expect it to handle distribution amping or the such, just process and make me happy :)

Also does it allow for simultaneous RGBHV + DVI/HDMI out? The reason for this is because in my Normal Gaming PC, I will use rates of 100 and above (thats why I go SLI :), not to lock at 60 or 72), and it's primary display is a Sony CRT. But obviously I can adjust those down to 60,72 when I'm not using the CRT.

No go. There are no international upgrade programs right now. Again, they are working on something but at this time there is none. Sorry guys!

I am a Macintosh owner and am considering buying a VP30. I checked with DVDO tech support about using Virtual PC to do software updates and they said they have no experience using it. I was wondering if there is anyone out there who has done updates on the iScanHD or HD+ using a Macintosh who might share their experience. Thanks for any help.

Hi All

I was wondering if someone could shed so light on a question for me please

With the VP30 inputs and out puts

If i have a HDMI device hooked in the HDMI input and the output to component will this work or will i be tripped up by HDCP?

In other words will the unit transcode for anything to anything?

I am a Macintosh owner and am considering buying a VP30. I checked with DVDO tech support about using Virtual PC to do software updates and they said they have no experience using it. I was wondering if there is anyone out there who has done updates on the iScanHD or HD+ using a Macintosh who might share their experience. Thanks for any help.

Its funny that there are ex-Apple folks in high places at DVDO, yet they haven't worked out update instructions for the Mac.

They're using a standard serial protocol to send the firmware down. It has got to be possible to do on the Mac natively. Unfortunately I haven't had any luck yet. However, I have successfully updated my iScan HD+ firmware using Virtual PC 7 on Mac OS X 10.3 & 10.4. It works fine. You must follow the USB adapter updater directions exactly. Don't install the Mac drivers or else the Mac side will take over and VPC won't get a crack at it. You must also use only the USB adapters DVDO recommends. I had a unsupported adapter and they are correct, I could not get it to work.

Note that when a firmware update fails on one of these units they stay in firmware update mode until you get a good firmware on there. In this mode you can't use the device as a scalar. I was only brave enough to try this because I have a couple PCs gathering dust that I could fall back on.

- Collin

Hi All

I was wondering if someone could shed so light on a question for me please

With the VP30 inputs and out puts

If i have a HDMI device hooked in the HDMI input and the output to component will this work or will i be tripped up by HDCP?

In other words will the unit transcode for anything to anything?

This has been asked and answered several times. This unit will take digital HDMI in and output analog component for non HDCP sources. It will not output analog component for HDCP sources. They cannot ship a product that circumvents HDCP.

- Collin

This has been asked and answered several times. This unit will take digital HDMI in and output analog component for non HDCP sources. It will not output analog component for HDCP sources. They cannot ship a product that circumvents HDCP.

- Collin
Excuse me if i am wrong but isnt HDMI HDCP complient by default therfore the VP30 will be receiving HDCP from the HDCP device thus not allowing it to pass to component

Excuse me if i am wrong but isnt HDMI HDCP complient by default therfore the VP30 will be receiving HDCP from the HDCP device thus not allowing it to pass to component

the source can have a HDMI connection but choose not to HDCP it. In this case the VP30 obviously can transcode to anything u want.

for example DVE is not a copy protected disk. U play it through HDMI out and there is no HDCP.

Excuse me if i am wrong but isnt HDMI HDCP complient by default therfore the VP30 will be receiving HDCP from the HDCP device thus not allowing it to pass to component

Not all HDMI signals are HDCP encrypted. For instance, the HDMI output from a VP30 might not have HDCP enabled if its processing non-HDCP inputs. Output from DVI devices often do not have HDCP enabled. Your computer's DVI out won't be encrypted. The output from your HD Tivo or HDMI equipped DVD player probably will almost certainly be HDCP encrypted.

- Collin

I have successfully updated my iScan HD+ firmware using Virtual PC 7 on Mac OS X 10.3 & 10.4. It works fine. You must follow the USB adapter updater directions exactly. Don't install the Mac drivers or else the Mac side will take over and VPC won't get a crack at it. You must also use only the USB adapters DVDO recommends. I had a unsupported adapter and they are correct, I could not get it to work.

- Collin

Thanks a lot, Collin. This is extremely helpful. They seem to prefer a USB GEAR adapter. Is this the one you used?

Thanks a lot, Collin. This is extremely helpful. They seem to prefer a USB GEAR adapter. Is this the one you used?

Yup, I used the USB Gear adapter. I think the trick to all this is that the Windows drivers for these FTDI adapters, allow setting transmit and receive sizes to 64 bytes. This probably keeps the sender from overrunning the receiver. I haven't found a way to do that on the Mac without resorting to VPC.

- Collin

Thanks again. Hopefully, I'll be able to get it all to work when I get the VP30.

-Jessica

Just wanted to say, *yes* I have read through the entire thread before asking.

I'm basically a huge gaming fan, and it simply must work correctly across the board from a lowly Nintendo -> Next Gen that is using HDMI. Obviously I don't expect it to handle distribution amping or the such, just process and make me happy

I've read the entire thread, too. And others. And I'm in the same boat as you. I've found fragments of information here and there, but nothing definitive to my situation. I'll admit it- I'm an HDTV newbie. But I'm not a tech newbie, having worked with IT systems for the last 10 years.

Basically, I'm very likely going to have a Sharp LC-45GX6U that will take 1080p over a DVI connector. The only problem is, I'd be bypassing the Sharp AV unit and thus I will have to push *everything* to a 1080p panel with no processing abilities or controls. I'd basically need a replacement for that unit, although I could still use it on one of the VP30's inputs for OTA input, among other things.

- Will the VP30 allow me to take component and/or DVI input at 720p and send it out via DVI (with an HDMI <> DVI cable) at 1080p?

- Will it take 1080i from Component and/or DVI and send it out at 1080p? (I don't care if the deinterlacing isn't perfect)

- Will it take a DVI 1080p *input* over DVI (with the convert cable, of course?)

- Will it have color, sharpness, brightness, and contrast controls? (Since I'll have none on the panel.)

- Will it take Composit/S-Video (480i) and send it out at 1080p?

As far as I can tell, yes, it will do all these things. But before I dish out $2k I would be really happy if someone could say "Yes, you're good to go!"

As an aside, I wonder if the VP30 has the ability to store different "profiles" for if I hooked up a different output device to the thing? That would be kickass, instead of having to re-adjust the output everytime I do that.

Thanks in advance, guys. The VP30 looks awesome and I bet it would really make my source video look great.

Basically, I'm very likely going to have a Sharp LC-45GX6U that will take 1080p over a DVI connector. The only problem is, I'd be bypassing the Sharp AV unit and thus I will have to push *everything* to a 1080p panel with no processing abilities or controls. I'd basically need a replacement for that unit, although I could still use it on one of the VP30's inputs for OTA input, among other things.



cdbreaker - I have the LC-45GX6U. Presently, I bypass the AVC and feed it a 1080p signal from a HD+. I have preordered the VP30 and will upgrade to it.

Abbas

Do we know anymore about when the VP30 will be released? I really need it prior to getting a new XBOX360. My setup will be so much easier with HD transcoding. SJ

I'm trying to use the upgrade program link (I have am HD+) that Jason provided with the Sticky for this forum. I'm not sure that I'm doing it right, however.

I go to the link and get the special upgrade page.

In the first dropdown in the Order DVDO iScan VP30 Upgrade section, I select HD+ $1000 trade-in credit.

I then select the free output cable I want and then click the PRE-ORDER NOW! button.

HOWEVER, when the order form comes up. I only see a $300 credit (like for the default Plus V2/ $300 trade-in credit ). It's like the dropdown choice doesn't work.

Am I doing something wrong or have I misunderstood how this works?

Thanks!

- Gerry

P.S. Has it been indicated when these units will be shipping? And are we supposed to ship the old unit in first or wait until we get the new unit? Sorry if this has already been covered . . .

The $300 credit is the special for ordering early (including AVSFORUM special). You will not see the credit for your iSCAN HD+. You will get this after you send it back (once you get the VP30). SJ

"- Will it take a DVI 1080p *input* over DVI (with the convert cable, of course?)"

Except for this one, I'm pretty sure they've got all of your bases covered. Accepting 1080p will be up to the HDMI receiver accepting a 1080p input, a capability that today's chips have been remiss about handling. A rather glaring and idiotic oversight by Silicon Image, as DVI was assured this resolution a few years ago when they ramped up to 225MHz chips.

September/October seem to be the months that several 1080p devices have been announced. Maybe the (so far) letdown has been addressed.

If I click on the sticky preorder form, the price I get is not as low as the emailed price I got from Jason. Is the original emailed special still good?

John

The $300 credit is the special for ordering early (including AVSFORUM special). You will not see the credit for your iSCAN HD+. You will get this after you send it back (once you get the VP30). SJ

Hi
I have a 1st generation dlp projector, 600x800 rez, composite, s-video and 15pin VGA in. Is the VP30 able to use any of these pj inputs to correctly display a 1080i/720p HDTV satellite dish signal downscaled to 600x800?
Thanks

jcg,

No the AVS pricing is totally seperate and does NOT allow for trade ins. The DVDO link shows that AVS members get an additional $100 credit. Two seperated deals.

Andy

"- Will it take a DVI 1080p *input* over DVI (with the convert cable, of course?)"

Except for this one, I'm pretty sure they've got all of your bases covered. Accepting 1080p will be up to the HDMI receiver accepting a 1080p input, a capability that today's chips have been remiss about handling.

Well, that's rather dissapointing =/ I could always use my little Gefen DVI switchbox to switch between the VP30 and the computer but that really mitigates the need for the box at all. While I have no doubt that the output from this thing is far superior to the Sharp box, spending $2000 on something that doesn't meet all my needs might not make sense.

Oh well, thanks for the information - even after reading the DVDO website information on the page, it doesn't really say it couldn't take a 1080p input signal. Although, I did see someone mention that it might be able to take (for instance) 1920x1080@60hz and simply do a pass-through? That would work for me.

Well, that's rather dissapointing =/ I could always use my little Gefen DVI switchbox to switch between the VP30 and the computer but that really mitigates the need for the box at all. While I have no doubt that the output from this thing is far superior to the Sharp box, spending $2000 on something that doesn't meet all my needs might not make sense.

Email Jason Turk. You can get it for a LOT less than 2 grand.

Email Jason Turk. You can get it for a LOT less than 2 grand.

This "a Lot less" price that you speak of - does it require a trade in (or upgrade)? Right now, I do not have any VP's, so I imagine that price will still be pretty steep for people like me.

This "a Lot less" price that you speak of - does it require a trade in (or upgrade)?

No.

Right now, I do not have any VP's, so I imagine that price will still be pretty steep for people like me.

No sir! I'm a brand new customer coming in myself. I'm not trading in or upgrading anything.

Trust me: Do yourself a favor and ask Jason to email you the AVS preorder details. You may very well be pleasantly surprised. I most certainly was. :)

This "a Lot less" price that you speak of - does it require a trade in (or upgrade)? Right now, I do not have any VP's, so I imagine that price will still be pretty steep for people like me.

There are two AVS deals, one for upgraders, one for new customers. The pricing on the new customer deal in particular is quite good. The upgrade deal can be viewed using the sticky link on the first page of the VP forum. Info on the new customer deal can be had by emailing Jason Turk. More information is in this thread.

- Collin

I just ordered mine on Friday. I was going to go the trade in route, but I decided to order it a maybe try and sell the HD+ later.

I have changed the first post in this thread to be the definitive spec sheet and I will be adding FAQs to this page so that one does not need to read the entire thread to get answers. If you have any other suggestions, please PM them to me. Thanks!

Josh, it would be great if the successor to the VP30 has dual
HDMI outputs. These don't have to output simultaneously but
would be nice for a solution that uses a plasma during the day
and a FP during the evening...

Thanks for first post update Josh@DVDO :) Thats just about all I wanted to know.

Except this line:
Four HDMI processes 480i/p, 576 i/p, 720p, 1080i, VGA/SVGA/XGA/SXGA@60Hz

1) Are alternate timings ok? e.g. Graphics card timings often cannot hit the exact timings required by EIA-861 on DVI.
2) Safe to assume those are the only resolutions accepted by HDMI? If not, does question #1 affect it?

Thanks, I'm really looking forward to purchasing this, seems to fill in all the little gaps the previous processors had.

Josh, it would be great if the successor to the VP30 has dual
HDMI outputs. These don't have to output simultaneously but
would be nice for a solution that uses a plasma during the day
and a FP during the evening...


I also would like this, even @ a higher price, this would save me from buying a HDMI splitter.

I also would like this, even @ a higher price, this would save me from buying a HDMI splitter.
Me too............

I just bought an HD+ a month or so ago. I'm going from a Pio 59Avi (HDMI out) to the HD+ then to the front projector (TBD... using DVI input right now).

Here's my question: Is it worth $700 right now to bump up to the VP-30 to have a pure HDMI path versus just using HDMI->DVI adapters on either end? Do two bits make that much of a difference, if I end up using HDMI on the projector end for input also?

I just bought an HD+ a month or so ago. I'm going from a Pio 59Avi (HDMI out) to the HD+ then to the front projector (TBD... using DVI input right now).

Here's my question: Is it worth $700 right now to bump up to the VP-30 to have a pure HDMI path versus just using HDMI->DVI adapters on either end? Do two bits make that much of a difference, if I end up using HDMI on the projector end for input also?

It depends what your projector does with an HDMI signal. On my Samsung DLP RPTV the HDMI receiver transforms all HDMI signals into 8 bit RGB signals before sending them to the core video processing pipeline. In this case I expect outputting 8 bit RGB from the VP30 will still result in the best picture. This of course is no improvement over DVI.

On the other hand, the improved scaling engine might add a small improvement over my HD+ but I expect the improvement will be subtle if not imperceptible. Nonetheless, I'm still upgrading chiefly because the increased number of inputs will be very useful to me.

- Collin

Don't forget about the HDMI switching for 4 inputs. That would cost $500 to $600 to get a dedicated switcher.

I also would like this, even @ a higher price, this would save me from buying a HDMI splitter.

the only HDMI splitters I have seen ( from Gefen) only pass video; not audio

a second HDMI output (mirrored) is on my wish list too

Nonetheless, I'm still upgrading chiefly because the increased number of inputs will be very useful to me.

- Collin
This is probably the major reason I'm upgrading as well. With a DirecTV HD TiVo(HDMI), a Dish 942(HDMI) and Comcast's soon to be released Phase III 6412(HDMI), and my display being HDMI, it just makes everything cleaner as far as connections. Not really a big deal, but for the trade-in price, well worth it in my opinion. The additional functions and processing are a plus ontop of that.

the only HDMI splitters I have seen ( from Gefen) only pass video; not audio

a second HDMI output (mirrored) is on my wish list tooI don't think this this correct. http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=2514 explicitly states: This HDMI product supports BOTH Audio and Video signals.

I don't think this this correct. http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=2514 explicitly states: This HDMI product supports BOTH Audio and Video signals.

Thanks for this link

this is a new product that is not in stock yet: this is very good news that they upgraded the product

I called Gefen and asked if my first generation splitters (a 1x2 and a 1x4) can be upgraded to pass audio and they will let me know: he said it was a new chip design that passes audio & video

at any rate, using one of these on the output of the VP-30 should do the trick

No sir! I'm a brand new customer coming in myself. I'm not trading in or upgrading anything.


Oh fellow XBR960 owner, Mr. Q. :)

Is that the destination for the VP30's signal?

Only asking because I'm a total noooooooooob to the processor front, and I'm under the impression that:

1) Our Sony has a damn good scaler (I've tried every source I can throw at this thing!)
2) At 34", the difference for most sources would be negligible


Might sound blasphemous to this crowd. Sorry :confused:

Oh fellow XBR960 owner, Mr. Q. :)

Is that the destination for the VP30's signal?

Yes. :)



Only asking because I'm a total noob to the processor front, and I'm under the impression that:

1) Our Sony has a damn good scaler (I've tried every source I can throw at this thing!)

Yes it does. But instead of "just" 960i or 540p, why not 1080i all the time, across the boards? As good as the Sony's is, I know this is even better. :p


2) At 34", the difference for most sources would be negligible.

Yes and no.

I watch mine at around 6-7 feet. I've been AMAZED at what I can see on this TV and how good the detail is, especially post ISF calibration. I have very good eyesight anyways, but this TV really has shocked me on more than one occasion.

So, for me, I figure: Any non-HD sources...why not give 'em a boost?


Might sound blasphemous to this crowd. Sorry.

Nah, I'll be the first to admit, for myself: This is probably supreme overkill, but I really love the idea of the "switcher with a brain that offers benefit to anything plugged into it" to really boil things down to a very crude and oversimplified definition. ;)


The only reason I'm doing this thing is because the AVS preorder price is just that darned good AND ABT DVDO's stellar return/exchange policies and the upgrade program. All of these things combined really made it almost irresistable for me.

I probably would not do this if the AVS preorder price weren't what it was. That's what pushed me off the fence.

It's the equivalent of the killer deal Vanns had back in November, when I bought my Onkyo 1000 from them, on sale, for $1447!

It was a deal I would have been a fool to turn away from.

It was such a heck of a sale that Onkyo almost yanked their franchise from Vanns and made them shut that sale down mere days after I bought my unit. Too bad. There was a real upsurge in interest and sales for that unit thanks to Vanns, during that week.

This feels the same way to me. Same kind of "can't miss" deal.

I knew I was headed for an HDMI switcher (3-4) down the road anyways, regardless of anything else.

Next generation video game systems, PC sometimes, satellite or cable, current DVD player, etc....it was going to happen in the next few months, probably by the time the Xbox360 comes out, or shortly thereafter. PS3 and the new Nintendo system will finish it. And since Nintendo doesn't want to bother with HD resolutions...I will. And for any of my older games, that aren't HD...voila! At least I get some nice upscaling all the time. :)


Seeing what leading brands like GeFen or Zektor cost for a 4 HDMI switcher, I figured: I can either spend several hundred bucks for a "dumb box" (no offense) and get an HDMI switcher that's JUST that, and nothing else... or I can save up and...for a few hundred bucks more, basicallly, get something that is an HDMI switcher PLUS handles the older analog devices AND has a brain and lets me upscale and improve non HD images. Why NOT do it? ;) Put myself over the top, as it were.

Plus this will be something that will serve me for YEARS to come, probably into my next display and...there's that fantastic ABT DVDO upgrade program. THAT is another big factor that pushed me towards this. It's a rather compelling 1-2 punch combination for me. That really is a peace of mind feature that I really wish more companies would do for all sorts of products, consumer electronics and otherwise.

Remember: I'll have 30 days to take it for a test whirl. If I decide it's overkill, or it's not necessary or whatever...adios amigos! No harm, no foul. :) I really can't lose here.

It's worth a shot for me to see it for myself. I'm just too curious and the setup too plush for me NOT to check it out. Ahh...this darned hobby... :)

Q - hear you 100%, and my rationale is very similar for considering it. The biggest "problem" with our TV is the single HDMI input, and this is one way around said "problem" :)


Next display? Perish the thought! :)

Q - hear you 100%, and my rationale is very similar for considering it. The biggest "problem" with our TV is the single HDMI input, and this is one way around said "problem" :)


Next display? Perish the thought! :)

Not anytime soon! :)

Thanks for this link

this is a new product that is not in stock yet: this is very good news that they upgraded the product

I called Gefen and asked if my first generation splitters (a 1x2 and a 1x4) can be upgraded to pass audio and they will let me know: he said it was a new chip design that passes audio & video

at any rate, using one of these on the output of the VP-30 should do the trick


How about this one?
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=3045

As an installer I am very excited about the new DVDO coming. I have heard it won't be out til October or so. It will solve many HDMI problems (mainly lack of inputs). I use the HD+ model with my HD TIVO. It does help with the non hd programming. Even more so with a PJ on a bigger screen. I see nothing wrong with folks wanting to invest in a good scaler. More times than not that is the key ingrediant to a great home theater. Besides, you never get tired answering people when they ask you- what is that for?

If I put my order now to upgrade from the HD+ to VP30, when is the best guess estimate when the VP30 might be delivered to me?

Thanks!

From the FAQ:

Q: Can the iScan VP30 take an HDMI input signal and output that same signal over the analog outputs?
A: If the input signal has HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection) legally we must turn off the analog outputs. If the input signal does not have HDCP, then the iScan VP30 CAN output this signal as an analog signal (either RGB or component) at any resolution between VGA and 1080p.


I thought the HDCP rules only required that the analog outputs be downrezzed to 480i/480p/576i/576p (for PAL)

Am I wrong (again)? or was this simply a decision that DVDO made?

I thought the HDCP rules only required that the analog outputs be downrezzed to 480i/480p/576i/576p (for PAL)

Am I wrong (again)? or was this simply a decision that DVDO made?

I believe you are wrong (I can't confirm the 'again' part though). Downrezzing of analog outputs is/may be done on set top boxes that receive digital signals that receive content that is/may be restricted by the content provider. This is related to the broadcast flag.

Can the VP30 do this? I run everything to my projector over RGB and my HTPC comes into my HD+ via RGB (passthru) but my other inputs are component. I'd like to have the VP30 do the YPbPr to RGB switching so I don't also have to switch my projector input as well (e.g. one button switch instead of two). Just want to confirm whehter the VP30 will help with this before I upgrade...

I got a couple of the new Gefen HDMI splitters that pass audio as well as video

They work as advertised!!

this is important since many displays such as the Sharp LC45GX6U do not have a separate audio input for HDMI

kolvadw - The iScan VP30 can transcode any signal that is processed from YPbPr to RGB. These are the signals that are processed by the iScan VP30 on its individual inputs:

Composite Video Inputs: 480i/576i
S-Video Inputs : 480i/576i
Component Video Inputs: 480i/576i/480p/576p/720p/1080i
RGBHV/Component Input: 480p/576p/720p/1080i and VGA/SVGA/XGA/SXGA@60Hz
HDMI Inputs: 480i/576i/480p/576p/720p/1080i and VGA/SVGA/XGA/SXGA@60Hz
SD-SDI Input (Optional) - 480i/576i

Hi Guys

I am not sure if i am speaking out of school here

But the VP30 has been made with a different processor socket that will allow the processor to be replaced with a upgraded processor

Who knows

I hear SIL have developed a new units :cool:

hmmm... the plot thickens...

I am not sure if i am speaking out of school here

But the VP30 has been made with a different processor socket that will allow the processor to be replaced with a upgraded processor

Who knows

I hear SIL have developed a new units.

Heh, the SIL-505? ;) VERY intruiging indeed.

Heh, the SIL-505? ;) VERY intruiging indeed.

I have a feeling it will be the SIL8100

Links provided by Clifo on DBA

http://www.siliconimage.com/news/press/detailpressrelease.aspx?id=264

http://www.siliconimage.com/docs/Product_PDFs/8100PB_122104.pdf

Unless I'm reading the data sheets wrong, it's limited to 1366x768@60hz output...?

Unless I'm reading the data sheets wrong, it's limited to 1366x768@60hz output...?

Yeah i read the same thing but put it down to lack of information as i ahve read in one or two places that the VP30 will only handle 1366x768 at 60Hz which we all konw it will do 50Hz

I have a feeling it will be the SIL8100

Links provided by Clifo on DBA

http://www.siliconimage.com/news/press/detailpressrelease.aspx?id=264

http://www.siliconimage.com/docs/Product_PDFs/8100PB_122104.pdf

Thanks for the links! :)

If I understand your earlier post correctly...is it going to be theoretically possible, at some point in the future, if the SIL8100 comes out...that the VP30 could have a "board upgrade" done towards that new SIL chip, or is that the point when you whip up a VP40 or something else?

Does that many any sense? ;)

If DVDO continues their generous trade in policy, I don't think we will have any problems either way.

If DVDO continues their generous trade in policy, I don't think we will have any problems either way.

That's exactly what I'm counting on. :)

This just keeps getting better and better...

I doubt that DVDO will be using this Silicon Image SIL8100. I'd instead expect a new processor by Anchor Bay Technologies.

I doubt that DVDO will be using this Silicon Image SIL8100. I'd instead expect a new processor by Anchor Bay Technologies.

Works for me either way. :)

What are the chances of anyone doing a review on the VP30 before the Pre order deadline?

What are the chances of anyone doing a review on the VP30 before the Pre order deadline?


With CEDIA coming up here real soon, I'm hoping to see some sort of information come out of that, at least.

Thanks for the links! :)

If I understand your earlier post correctly...is it going to be theoretically possible, at some point in the future, if the SIL8100 comes out...that the VP30 could have a "board upgrade" done towards that new SIL chip, or is that the point when you whip up a VP40 or something else?

Does that many any sense? ;)

From what i understand is that a board upgrade to a new pocessor maynot be needed due to the processor mount used on the VP30 a straight CPU swap is possible and would say firmware update

I doubt that DVDO will be using this Silicon Image SIL8100. I'd instead expect a new processor by Anchor Bay Technologies.

This is possible as well

The next DVDO unit will use a proprietary ABT de-interlacing solution developed by Dale Adams. The new Silicon Image chipset looks like a dinosaur compared to offerings from Gennum, Silicon Optix and Faroudja and probably won't be widely used.

The next DVDO unit will use a proprietary ABT de-interlacing solution developed by Dale Adams.

u mean the "next" one after the VP30 ? considering the VP30 is not shipping yet ...

u mean the "next" one after the VP30 ? considering the VP30 is not shipping yet ...

It is my understanding that it will begin shipping around the middle
of this month...

Yes, I mean the one after the VP-30. It will be on display at CEDIA.

Yes, I mean the one after the VP-30. It will be on display at CEDIA.

DVDO will be displaying the VP40 at CEDIA?

The next DVDO unit will use a proprietary ABT de-interlacing solution developed by Dale Adams.
I can't wait to try Dale's new deinterlacing out.

fellas, that chip corresponds with SI's overall business plan - chips aimed at the flat display market. This chip is not going to be much competition from offerings from DVDO or any of the other companies on the forum.

Without DVDO's staff on board, I'm assuming this is basically a Sil504 core with some additions (BT656 ports, HDMI/HDCP inputs, frame rate conversion and limited 1080i processing). About 1080i processing, I'm confident this is going to be limited to a bob/weave type of solution.

the only company that I know that is close on finalizing 1080i->1080p processing into flat displays is Philips.

The next DVDO unit will use a proprietary ABT de-interlacing solution developed by Dale Adams. The new Silicon Image chipset looks like a dinosaur compared to offerings from Gennum, Silicon Optix and Faroudja and probably won't be widely used.

In a way i understand that they will not comment on this. on the other hand if its indeed a chip design why not tell us 'will take our next chipset'. It seems they have a plan and are telling insiders...

I am sure all/many of us will feel even better getting the vp30 if we have a idea its part of a bigger plan on the same box design.

On a side note, i am getting a little upset in europe the price is 2100E for the vp30 there is a 10% off before 15sept but no info on trade in's and no special avs like deals. If i where in the states i could upgrade for $699 sofar it looks like we will again seen as a after tought not a good signal on a forum as big as this they should work more on giving us a feeling we are one community (as i feel we are). Also the sdi now comes default in europe it seems kinda weird if you already own a sdi module.

Daniel.

This is not limited information. Josh commented on this early on in this thread and said that the prototype for the new unit with their new de-interlacing would be at the show. I am only repeating what Josh has already put out.

Yes, I mean the one after the VP-30. It will be on display at CEDIA.

And do we know if this unit will do 1080i deinterlacing to 1080p?

That's the unit I'm waiting for!

Don't the existing scalers deinterlace 1080i to 1080P?

DVDO will be displaying the VP40 at CEDIA?

No, we will be showing some of the technologies that we hope to incorporate into a future iScans. 'VP40' is logically (based on the nomenclature) the next generation iScan.