This is not limited information. Josh commented on this early on in this thread and said that the prototype for the new unit with their new de-interlacing would be at the show. I am only repeating what Josh has already put out.

I wouldn't say that it is a prototype for a new unit (I may have misspoken), moreover it is a technology demonstration.

For all those wondering, the iScan VP30 does use the SiI504 and there are no plans to use any new chips from Silicon Image to replace the SiI504.

Don't the existing scalers deinterlace 1080i to 1080P?

Yes, using field scaling.

For all those wondering, the iScan VP30 does use the SiI504 and there are no plans to use any new chips from Silicon Image to replace the SiI504.
Ah so it will be a ABT developed chip

Any info there Josh?

glenn - Yes there is (sorry can't share it with you though)

glenn - Yes there is (sorry can't share it with you though)

I know you dropped us a vague reference a few pages back about a "giant killer."

I sure hope that's what happens, because this ENTIRE video processor market SORELY needs some giant killers in it.

I know you dropped us a vague reference a few pages back about a "giant killer."

I sure hope that's what happens, because this ENTIRE video processor market SORELY needs some giant killers in it.

Wasn't that a "Dragon" killer? :-)

Yes, using field scaling.

What is "field scaling"?

The current model does NOT do true 1080i deinterlacing, does it?

I apologize if this has already been covered; I didn't find it.

Does the VP30 have a simple pass-through or native mode, e.g. 480i-to480i?

I realize that this is not why people buy processors, but it would facilitate troubleshooting or comparisons of equipment--more easily than swapping cables.

Thanks

I apologize if this has already been covered; I didn't find it.

Does the VP30 have a simple pass-through or native mode, e.g. 480i-to480i?

I realize that this is not why people buy processors, but it would facilitate troubleshooting or comparisons of equipment--more easily than swapping cables.

Thanks

My iScan HD+ cannot output 480i. I doubt the VP30 is any different. I too have had several instances where I would have liked the ability to output 480i. For instance, just the other day it would have been nice to use the iScan as test pattern generator when calibrating the SD set in our den.

- Collin

I apologize if this has already been covered; I didn't find it.

Does the VP30 have a simple pass-through or native mode, e.g. 480i-to480i?

I realize that this is not why people buy processors, but it would facilitate troubleshooting or comparisons of equipment--more easily than swapping cables.

Thanks

Per the online specs, no 480i output...

My iScan HD+ cannot output 480i. I doubt the VP30 is any different. I too have had several instances where I would have liked the ability to output 480i. For instance, just the other day it would have been nice to use the iScan as test pattern generator when calibrating the SD set in our den.

- Collin

A couple of years ago I checked with DVDO about using the ISCAN as a signal generator as I was also considering the purchase of an Accupel HD signal generator. I was told by DVDO that the Iscan wasn't intended to be a stand alone signal generator and I would be better off using a seperate signal generator.

I got a couple of the new Gefen HDMI splitters that pass audio as well as video

They work as advertised!!

this is important since many displays such as the Sharp LC45GX6U do not have a separate audio input for HDMI


Why do you need it? Since HDMI already carries audio, why the need for a separate input?

I wouldn't say that it is a prototype for a new unit (I may have misspoken), moreover it is a technology demonstration.

Weren't the first hints of HDMI also about a year before the product will end up shipping? In other words, wasn't it mentioned at CEDIA last year? :)

What is "field scaling"?

The current model does NOT do true 1080i deinterlacing, does it?


Correct. It does "bob" type deinterlacing of 1080i, which basically throws out half the information and creates a 540p stream which is then scaled to 1080p. IOW, it goes 1080i -> 540p -> 1080p.

In fairness, many scalers which output 1080p do this. Also, there has been speculation (from Darinp among others) that most people could not tell the difference on most displays (even native 1080p ones) in most setups...

TM

Josh, it would be great if the successor to the VP30 has dual
HDMI outputs. These don't have to output simultaneously but
would be nice for a solution that uses a plasma during the day
and a FP during the evening...


I would actually like to see 1 SVideo out on the next version if it is a simple addition. My reason being that I want to use the projector system for watching movies, but sometimes I like to just sit and watch things in a fully lit room on my older big screen TV. My only option at the moment I beleive is to convert the component analog out from the VP30 to SVideo (which requires yet another little box in the cupboard right?).

I would actually like to see 1 SVideo out on the next version if it is a simple addition.

This will never happen. S-video is only capable of transmitting 480i. The iScans do not have a 480i "passthrough" mode (see discussion above).

josh@dvdo - you'll probably tell me it is too soon to ask, but since I've already ordered one, do you have any idea what time period defines "fall 2006?" or at least, can you narrow it down some? Now that I have finally decided, I want it now! (yeah - I know - so what.)

So any hints would be appreciated. Calender fall starts in 3 weeks; traditional fall starts right now, with kids going back to school. If I have to wait for fall in OZ, I won't see one til next April :(

josh@dvdo - you'll probably tell me it is too soon to ask, but since I've already ordered one, do you have any idea what time period defines "fall 2006?" or at least, can you narrow it down some? Now that I have finally decided, I want it now! (yeah - I know - so what.)

So any hints would be appreciated. Calender fall starts in 3 weeks; traditional fall starts right now, with kids going back to school. If I have to wait for fall in OZ, I won't see one til next April :(

When I placed my pre-order, I was told that they EXPECT these VP30's to ship sometime shortly after CEDIA, towards the end of September. I'm not stating that as the last word on the subject, just what I was told.

Yuppers, that is my understanding too. I have one of the early orders in. :)

We could use the "in two weeks" Standard AVS Forum Shipping Date". :D

Note: For you newcomers, this is how it works. Today's Standard AVS Forum Shipping Date" is "in two weeks".

When you ask this question again next Tuesday, the answer is, "in two weeks".

And so on until the thing finally ships. :)

josh@dvdo - you'll probably tell me it is too soon to ask, but since I've already ordered one, do you have any idea what time period defines "fall 2006?" or at least, can you narrow it down some? Now that I have finally decided, I want it now! (yeah - I know - so what.)

"Fall 2006" sounds like it is a year away. The iScan VP30s should start shipping in October (of 2005), at the earliest.

Now Josh, you're not playing by the rules here. The correct answer is "in two weeks." :D

Excited about getting mine. Thanks again for your excellent participation and support on this Forum. It was a big reason I bought a DVDO.

So early Fall 2005! Though October is only a month away, it's going to seem like a long time!

OOPS - and a big hearty duh. Guess it just seemed like a year, so a Freudian slip or something. Thanks for the reply, Josh. Won't start bothering you again until "about two weeks" from October ;)

and Dan - where I work, the job will always be done "in a week or so." the "or so" being the key. And sometimes the jobs even get done in LESS than a week. (always try to do that once or twice a year, just so I can truthfully tell a customer that it doesn't always take that long.)

So early Fall 2005! Though October is only a month away, it's going to seem like a long time!

Hi Aaron, What DVD player are you going to use with the VP30?

Correct. It does "bob" type deinterlacing of 1080i, which basically throws out half the information and creates a 540p stream which is then scaled to 1080p. IOW, it goes 1080i -> 540p -> 1080p.

In fairness, many scalers which output 1080p do this. Also, there has been speculation (from Darinp among others) that most people could not tell the difference on most displays (even native 1080p ones) in most setups...

TM

Thanks Anthony!

Hi Aaron, What DVD player are you going to use with the VP30?

The Oppo 971 and the Sony 975 and I'll have my Denon 2200 connected to the component inputs, but that would be for video from SACD/DVD-A.

Per the online specs, no 480i output...

What--in your experience pre-release specs have never been incomplete, inaccurate or changed?

Josh, I hate to ask this question again but people keep telling me I'm wrong. I have a Canon SX50 display, it does NOT support HDCP. However, NONE of my sources that will be input to the VP30 are HDCP either. Is it correct that as long as I DO NOT input an HDCP encoded source, the VP30 will be able to output to my non HDCP display OVER THE HDMI OUTPUT PORT?

Here was your answer last time:

The iScan VP30's HDMI output will not have HDCP-encryption on it unless the iScan VP30 is processing an HDCP-encrypted source. So if all of your sources are non-HDCP and your display is non-HDCP, the iScan VP30 will not bring HDCP to the party.

This seems pretty clear to me, why do people keep telling me the VP30 will not be able to output via an HDMI/DVI cable to my Canon SX50?


Thanks.

Dan

Are the analog output connectors on the VP30 BNC or RCA?

This seems pretty clear to me, why do people keep telling me the VP30 will not be able to output via an HDMI/DVI cable to my Canon SX50?
Because they're fools.

:p

Are the analog output connectors on the VP30 BNC or RCA?

The picture, on the data sheet, shows BNC connectors for the analog output.

The picture, on the data sheet, shows BNC connectors for the analog output.

Thanks - I looked on the web and could no longer find the rear picture.

Yep - see them on the data sheet. Thanks again!

Looking at the following cable to connect to my Sammy:
http://www.bettercables.com/vgato5bncs.html

Anyone know of any better?

Is that to try and input 1080P? I wasn't able to get 1080P to work from my iscanHD+.

Is that to try and input 1080P? I wasn't able to get 1080P to work from my iscanHD+.

Yep. Josh said it should look great...

Yuppers, that is my understanding too. I have one of the early orders in. :)

We could use the "in two weeks" Standard AVS Forum Shipping Date". :D

Note: For you newcomers, this is how it works. Today's Standard AVS Forum Shipping Date" is "in two weeks".

When you ask this question again next Tuesday, the answer is, "in two weeks".

And so on until the thing finally ships. :)



SNICKER :)

Looking at the following cable to connect to my Sammy:
http://www.bettercables.com/vgato5bncs.html

Anyone know of any better?
Look here: http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/rgbhv/hd15rcabncprices.htm.

Just as good, costs quite a bit less. Not a forum sponsor though. While you can buy long lengths of such an adapter cable, getting a breakout cable one with a run of conventional cable is a good idea for longer runs (where "longer" depends upon who you talk to, I'd say > 40 ft, other have said as little as > 15 ft)

I have to agree with spa (Steve) -- bluejeanscable.com is a great operation, very friendly and professional with good product -- more engineering focused than tweak-ish, which I like.

Be warned though -- their component video cables that are bundled are T-H-I-C-K. When they say 3/4 of an inch they aren't kidding, but when they say "surprisingly flexible", they ARE kidding!

The quality of those cables is really outstanding, but they can be a handfull to work with. If you have the space behind your rack, you'll be happy with them.

-John

Does anyone know if VP30 can automatically detect component input signal aspect ration and when aspect ration changes can it automatically correct output format ?

:confused:

Thanks Steve and John for your suggestion.

I have purchased from Blue Jean cables before and find them
top notch ( and relatively inexpensive ).

I have to agree with spa (Steve) -- bluejeanscable.com is a great operation, very friendly and professional with good product -- more engineering focused than tweak-ish, which I like.

Be warned though -- their component video cables that are bundled are T-H-I-C-K. When they say 3/4 of an inch they aren't kidding, but when they say "surprisingly flexible", they ARE kidding!



You are definately right there! 'Flexible' appears to mean, they can 'curve somewhat', these are incredibly stiff cables. But I see it as a benefit, less tangling :)

I have to agree with spa (Steve) -- bluejeanscable.com is a great operation, very friendly and professional with good product -- more engineering focused than tweak-ish, which I like.

Be warned though -- their component video cables that are bundled are T-H-I-C-K. When they say 3/4 of an inch they aren't kidding, but when they say "surprisingly flexible", they ARE kidding!

The quality of those cables is really outstanding, but they can be a handfull to work with. If you have the space behind your rack, you'll be happy with them.

-John
I'm a fan of BlueJeansCable as well, purchased 25" DVI and that thick bundled component cable from them and I'm happy with the price and the performance.

You are definately right there! 'Flexible' appears to mean, they can 'curve somewhat', these are incredibly stiff cables. But I see it as a benefit, less tangling :)

But does put extra strain on the input that's got all the weight on it. Thinking about cutting open the jacket to relieve the strain.

I do not have BJC cables, but I've made nearly identical component ones for myself. They are....not floppy. And could disable a burglar about as well as a Louisville Slugger. But try making the same cable with RG-6QS with copper-covered-steel conductors. THEN you'll see what "inflexible" is for comparison.

But does put extra strain on the input that's got all the weight on it. Thinking about cutting open the jacket to relieve the strain.
I support them in my rack with wireties as that thick one will definitely put a strain on the jacks.

When reading the faq's on the dvdo site, "if the incoming HDMI signal has HDCP then the vp30 cannot output this audio using the optical or co axial digital outputs, only the HDMI output. "

Does this mean that my receiver has to have HDMI input to enable me to use the HDMI outputs on my sources?

thanx
Rob

Crap, I didn't notice that. Now I wish they had a couple more optical inputs.

When reading the faq's on the dvdo site, "if the incoming HDMI signal has HDCP then the vp30 cannot output this audio using the optical or co axial digital outputs, only the HDMI output. "

Does this mean that my receiver has to have HDMI input to enable me to use the HDMI outputs on my sources?

thanx
Rob

Wow...that's not trivial. I went to the web site, and checked the FAQ section again. It sounds pretty clear from the description that it won't output an audio signal on either the optical or coaxial output connections if HDCP is present on one of the HDMI inputs.

This makes it worthless for what I want to do, which is to get my old receiver out of the loop. I especially don't want to have to buy a new receiver with HDMI inputs. I was going to order a VP30 this weekend, but not if it works like that.

Ray

Wow...that's not trivial. I went to the web site, and checked the FAQ section again. It sounds pretty clear from the description that it won't output an audio signal on either the optical or coaxial output connections if HDCP is present on one of the HDMI inputs.

This makes it worthless for what I want to do, which is to get my old receiver out of the loop. I especially don't want to have to buy a new receiver with HDMI inputs. I was going to order a VP30 this weekend, but not if it works like that.

Ray

Are we sure this is the case? Josh?

I agree this is not a trivial issue.

From a previous post, it seems like it will output the audio on either Optical or Coax to your AVR. See Josh response below. One can assume that almost all DVD content is HDCP. Hopefully, this works as advertised below or I will need to cancel my order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horst

This brings up an interesting question. If the scaler takes the audio/video output of say a DVD player and strips the video part of it for display through the HDMI output, how will the audio be connected to a receiver or processor?

How about optical or coax digital. [/COLOR]

Wow, that is an issue. All of my HDMI components also have a digital audio output. I guess in theory if the audio was present on the HDMI signal, then the VP30 would not allow the signal to move from the VP30 to my audio processor? How about if I just run the audio from the digital audio out to the VP30. Would it then allow the signal to pass? Thanks. SJ

Guys

I am looking for an opinion on whether you think that the VP30 would be overkill for my situation. Here is my setup

TV Panasonic TH-42PD25U ED Plasma
Iscan Ultra
SAT T60 DirecTivo
Dish PVR
Panasonic XP30 DVD
Phillips 727 DVD player (for PAL stuff)

I bought the Ultra to improve the picture from my two satellite receivers (90% of our viewing) which it did, but it also caused a problem which I am hoping that the VP30 could help with. I occasionally see a slow down of PAL content that has been converted to NTSC. I think this is a problem with the Ultra being confused between film and video mode. I have heard that this is not a problem on the HD/HD+. Anyone got any thoughts?

At the moment I don't need the HDMI inputs.I almost jumped on the HDTivo this month but couldn't pick up locals over the air so cancelled it. However I can see me having at least one HD satellite receiver by next summer for the World Cup.

I like the idea of the built-in test patterns and the lip sync delay plus the ability to scale the output to match my display, but is this thing overkill for an ED plasma?

The preorder date is getting close and I am on the fence. No good asking the boss what she thinks as I know what her answer will be!

Any thoughts would be appreciated

When reading the faq's on the dvdo site, "if the incoming HDMI signal has HDCP then the vp30 cannot output this audio using the optical or co axial digital outputs, only the HDMI output. "
Wow what a dumb "feature". This tells me if the DVD player sends both HDCP video and audio to the VP30 through HDMI, then the VP30 will only output the audio through the HDMI out. My chances of getting audio from this configuration is to have a projector with digital audio outputs, hope the DVD player can output digital audio from the COAX or SPDIF while outputting video from HDMI, or spend more money on a new preamp/pro or receiver that does not have this "feature". :( Josh, did I understand this correctly?

Wow what a dumb "feature". This tells me if the DVD player sends both HDCP video and audio to the VP30 through HDMI, then the VP30 will only output the audio through the HDMI out. My chances of getting audio from this configuration is to have a projector with digital audio outputs, hope the DVD player can output digital audio from the COAX or SPDIF while outputting video from HDMI, or spend more money on a new preamp/pro or receiver that does not have this "feature". :( Josh, did I understand this correctly?

I'd like clarification on this as well, however the way I read it is a little different. It is my assumption that:

If the HDMI input is HDCP encrypted, the VP30 cannot separate the video and audio from the HDMI feed and split them to separate outputs.

However, if you connect both an HDMI input (for video) and regular digital audio input (Toslink or coax) to the VP30, the VP30 should be able to pass the digital audio to its Toslink or coax output.

It's one extra cable, but it's not like the VP30 will force you to buy a new receiver with HDMI inputs to decode your audio.

Josh, is that correct?

hmmmm....so...Hopefully Josh will be able to clarify after CEDIA. How can the VP30 NOT be able to feed a receiver via optical/coax with HDMI sources? This excludes sooooo many users. Sooo? How much time do we have before the powerbuy officially goes forward? Last day to cancel?

Does anyone know if VP30 can automatically detect component input signal aspect ration and when aspect ration changes can it automatically correct output format ?

In order to do this, it would have to be able to read the aspect ratio flags on the disc, which is something only a DVD player/HTPC can do. Once the video signal leaves the playback source, all the receiving video processor sees are 720x480 pixels coming in. It has no way of knowing what aspect ratio the movie is.

If the HDMI input is HDCP encrypted, the VP30 cannot separate the video and audio from the HDMI feed and split them to separate outputs.



I think this is correct:

many members have a similar problem with Cablecard displays that shut off the digital audio because the 'copy never' flag is mistakenly set by the cablecos: this has to do with HDCP requirements

Josh Z and markrubin,

I see. Thats not so bad. But that somewhat limits one of the major upsides to the VP30. It's use as a hub just took a blow. So instead of runs of HDMI cables, we'd still have to have runs of coax/digital cables as well. Not a huge deal I guess just more cumbersome.

But come to think of it, IF this is a HDCP requirement, then all processors would/should present the same problem, correct? If this is more of a legal requirement we need some less law abiding processor manufacturers. ;)

If this is more of a legal requirement we need some less law abiding processor manufacturers. ;)
Or "leaked" firmware. While they're at it, how about "leaked" firmware that disables HDCP altogether? ;)

George,

I like how us Bay Area guys think. Maybe we should go and have a talk with the folks at ABT down in Campbell.

Andy

There are only 4 digital audio inputs though. I will have 4 components using the HDMI inputs, 1 using the component, and 1 using the Svideo. They all have digital audio outputs. If I can't get the audio out of the HDMI then I will have to keep my Digital audio switcher in the mix since the VP30 won't have enough digital audio inputs. They should have added 2 to 4 more digital audio inputs if you can't get the audio out of the HDMI input. I was really hoping to be able to ditch my digtal audio switcher.

I am thinking the audio question may be just a typo. For example, I have a Mitsubishi RPTV with a CableCard slot. It also has a digital audio output that will route audio back to a receiver/processor from "digital channels", so I can't imagine there's any kind of HDCP restriction on audio.

-John

That's what I was thinking that HDCP applies only to the video portion & not the audio portion so in theory you should be able to route audio out of HDMI inputs to the optical or coaxial outputs of VP30. I guess we will find out for sure once Josh returns from CEDIA.

Or "leaked" firmware. While they're at it, how about "leaked" firmware that disables HDCP altogether? ;)

ahhhhhhh.....a man after mine own heart :D

My only question is still how the VP30 stacks up against the Dragonfly. Any thoughts from CEDIA goers?
Javry

My only question is still how the VP30 stacks up against the Dragonfly. Any thoughts from CEDIA goers?
Javry

Keep an eye on this: http://www.audioholics.com/cedia/

When reading the faq's on the dvdo site, "if the incoming HDMI signal has HDCP then the vp30 cannot output this audio using the optical or co axial digital outputs, only the HDMI output. "

Does this mean that my receiver has to have HDMI input to enable me to use the HDMI outputs on my sources?

thanx
Rob

If you have a SDI modded DVD player you would be OK even if this is correct. Is that right?

I'd like clarification on this as well, however the way I read it is a little different. It is my assumption that:

If the HDMI input is HDCP encrypted, the VP30 cannot separate the video and audio from the HDMI feed and split them to separate outputs.

However, if you connect both an HDMI input (for video) and regular digital audio input (Toslink or coax) to the VP30, the VP30 should be able to pass the digital audio to its Toslink or coax output.

It's one extra cable, but it's not like the VP30 will force you to buy a new receiver with HDMI inputs to decode your audio.

Josh, is that correct?

Yes, that is exactly right.

But come to think of it, IF this is a HDCP requirement, then all processors would/should present the same problem, correct?

This is a legal constraint. No major manfacturer is going to risk their HDMI license to give you this feature.

Welcome back Josh! How was your CEDIA?

Mike

:D We had a great response at the booth. I even got to meet some of you in person and I would thank those that stopped just to thank me for what I do on this forum. All the rest that didn't make it by the booth will get to see it and me on "What's KEWL at CEDIA 2005" on HDNet.

This is a legal constraint. No major manfacturer is going to risk their HDMI license to give you this feature.

Josh,

That's what I figured. Just wanted to point out that this is NOT a DVDO oversight but a limitation that should be present on other processors as well.

People keep asking how the VP30 stacks up against the new chip Gennum and Realta based processors. For film it stacks up quite well, for video it doesn't. I am not going to elaborate. You can research this and find out all you want.

DVDO or ABT is developing its own algorithms to compete and will be coming out with its own chip containing the algorithms. Some of us have seen demonstrations of the new algorithms. They are a work in progress but should be finished in the near future. What this means is that DVDO will be coming out with a new processor using this chip. They aren't talking yet but it would appear that the machine is only a few months off. Certainly the machine will be available by CES just as the VP30 became available before Cedia and will be on public display there. Price will be under $3K. Perhaps as low as $2495 MSRP.

Don't start asking questions here of DVDO. They will make an announcement about this in the near future.

But, but please. I can't sleep. Can my VP30 be upgraded? No (IMNSHO). Will there be a trade in program? Yes (IMNSHO). DVDO always has trade in programs.

Pleeeeeze. Just one more little thing. Tell me know how much I will get if I trade in my newly purchased VP30. I might lose some money in buying the new machine. I can't sleep.

Yes. I suspect you will lose some money. Probably not a lot but enough to make the truly cheapskates out there throw up. Buy some sleeping pills. Goodnight.

One nice thing about DVDO, when the produce is within a few months of delivery, they announce it. They seem to be more predictable than other vendors.


-- Rich

Mark (or anyone else), are you allowed to talk about the new ABT deinterlacing? Did they demo it to the public at CEDIA, or was it a private demo?

--Andre

MARK

Idiots!

Super Idiots!

If my future ex-wife heard you, she would tell
you that a anger management course is needed.

Jim :D :D

Certainly the machine will be available by CES just as the VP30 became available bfore Cedia and will be on public display there. Price will be under $3K. Perhaps as low as $2495 MSRP.


man I dun know what to say. In the other thread u mentioned u knew abt the new Lumagen for quite some time. So I belive this one should also be true. $2495 MSRP (sounds logical, a uniform $500 step up VP30); timing "before CES", well that could even be earlier than Dragonfly shipping date if I order now....

The new motion adaptive deinterlacing of 1080i video and 480i video as well as of film was on private display. All I will say it is a work in progress, i.e., it is not finished yet. Give it another month. Good deinterlacing programs for video are extremely difficult.

Mark,

IYNSHO, do you think the "VP40" will be available before Q3/06? I don't want to fall into your "idiot" category, but if the "VP40" is released next Spring I'm thinking of cancelling my pre-order for the VP30 and waiting for the "VP40" -- your thoughts??

PS: If you feel the need to call me an "idiot", you may :)

Yes. I think it will be available late 4th Q this year. Certainly by 1Q 06.

Preorders of the VP30 should be shipping as early as end of September/ early October, the last I was told. *knocks on wood* At least for the "first batch."

Not sure if anything's changed one way or the other.

Yes. I think it will be available late 4th Q this year. Certainly by 1Q 06.
Okay, which unit are we talking about here? The VP30 or the as yet identified "VP40"?

Holy crap! That seals the deal for me. I need 1080p in my next scaler and don't want it bobbed...and I'd love to buy a DVDO - great company, great support, participation here, etc.

Can't wait for CES :D
TM

I'm pretty sure Mark is talking about the unnamed VP40...

TM

I'm pretty sure Mark is talking about the unnamed VP40...

TM

THAT early!? Q1 2006 is pretty darned early for the "VP40", let alone anytime in 2005. Wow! I'd sure like to have some more information on this. I sure appreciate what I've seen so far.

I just sent Jason an e-mail canceling my pre-order for the VP30. I assumed a product cycle of a year -- but only a few months :eek:

Guess one should never assume, especially when it comes to this hobby!

I just sent Jason an e-mail canceling my pre-order for the VP30. I assumed a product cycle of a year -- but only a few months :eek:

Guess one should never assume, especially when it comes to this hobby!

I'm almost tempted to do that myself, however, I suspect this "VP40" would be SUPREME over the top, overkill for me.

I hope there's some way I get more information before the VP30 ships. I just want to make as informed of a decision as possible before something actually happens.

I'm hoping DVDO puts out some sort of announcement BEFORE the VP30's ship out, at least.

I jumped at the VP30 because the price was sooo good, and at the time, I thought I would be purchasing high-def DVDs for Christmas. Since everything has been scuttled to Q1,2/06 I figure I will hold off purchasing any new equipment until then. Who knows maybe the "VP50" will be available by next summer ;)

I'm caught on the horns of this dilemma as well. I really like DVDO and the VP30 from AVS is a killer deal, BUT, not sure it is worth buying now when what I really need is the "VP40" with the next gen video deinterlacing. Even at the great AVS price, if the upgrade pricing is similar, it would be cheaper to wait.

Decisions, decisions! :>)

I jumped at the VP30 because the price was sooo good, and at the time, I thought I would be purchasing high-def DVDs for Christmas. Since everything has been scuttled to Q1,2/06 I figure I will hold off purchasing any new equipment until then. Who knows mapbe the "VP50" will be available by next summer ;)

That's a thought I'd considered as well...

I certainly can't deny that, if I can get a device that is a CLEAR upgrade from the SIl-504 in EVERY capacity (film and video) , for a little bit more $$$$... I'd probably seriously consider it.

Given the generous trade-in policy from DVDO and the special AVS pricing on the VP30, it seems to me that there doesn't have to be an either/or choice between the VP30 and whatever comes next. If you need or want a scaler, might as well go ahead and enjoy the VP30 for however many months it takes. Not much to lose.

Hmm. I'm a little surprised that you're allowed to discuss this here, Mark (or that you would choose to do so).

First off, every (successful) company always has to have new products in the pipeline, with continuous development of new technology that will eventually obsolete old technology. That's a given. Or they won't stay successful. You simply can't start a new development cycle after your competitors release their better product.

Also, as we all know, if you wait long enough there will always be something new coming out that will "blow away" anything that's available now. Thus the annual marketing and product release cycles.

But smart companies know enough not to discuss these new, upcoming developments, for lots of good reasons... inflated anticipation of capabilities, early expectations of delivery dates (many times not feasible), and cannibalization of current product sales. How many times have we seen new products that looked "so close", yet took many quarters (or in some cases, even years) to reach actual distribution? [Anybody recall the Dish 921?] Those were premature disclosures, and in some cases, major fiascos.

Technology demonstrations are just that... demonstrations of work in progress that show that a company knows what is important, and is focusing resources on the problems. You may have the impression that productization of these capabilities is imminent. Who knows? You may be right. But I suspect that you're grossly underestimating the amount of work that's still left to complete. The engineers at ABT are not only a very bright bunch technically, they're also very critical and quality oriented. They're not about to rush out a "solution" before they're confident they've polished things to perfection. And that takes time, even when everything goes well. And sometimes it doesn't. Actual delivery of this rumored "next gen" product could well be a year from now, though the buzz could start well before then.

Here we have a situation where a highly respected company's spanking-new flagship product hasn't even shipped yet, and its successor is being publically touted (exclusively by you) as being "just around the corner", and (possibly... your opinion) not a whole lot more expensive. I can't see in what way this helps DVDO?

Spread these rumors far enough and wide enough and they become perceived reality. Then when DVDO "fails" to meet the highly anticipated performance goals, or price point, or delivery date, people are disappointed.

sknight1...
> I'm thinking of cancelling my pre-order for the VP30 and waiting for the "VP40" <

What if everybody did that? You could have a lot of angry people still sitting around waiting next June, with no scaler solution, for a "delayed" product release that hasn't materialized yet. And might not ever materialize, due to cash-flow problems resulting from lost sales for the previous 9 months. I rest my case.

- Tim

mark haflich wrote:
> The new motion adaptive deinterlacing of 1080i video and 480i video as well as of film was on private display. All I will say it is a work in progress, i.e., it is not finished yet. Give it another month. <

Or 3. Or 6. I can't fathom how you feel you are competent to estimate a completion date, for a process you know nothing about, when the engineers at DVDO who actually understand this stuff wouldn't wager a guess with any precision?

> Good deinterlacing programs for video are extremely difficult. <

Bingo. And they don't exist yet. This is new territory, with some very complex and inventive work going on. I'm having trouble understanding why you'd be willing to jeopardize that work?

People need to realize that rumors are usually worth exactly what you paid for them... nada. A friend of mine had a phrase he was fond of using... "Go lemmings, go."

> Holy crap! That seals the deal for me. <

> Q1 2006 is pretty darned early for the "VP40", let alone anytime in 2005. Wow! <

> I just sent Jason an e-mail canceling my pre-order for the VP30. I assumed a product cycle of a year -- but only a few months <

> I jumped at the VP30 because the price was sooo good, and at the time, I thought... I figure I will hold off purchasing any new equipment until then. Who knows maybe the "VP50" will be available by next summer <

> I'm caught on the horns of this dilemma as well. I really like DVDO and the VP30 from AVS is a killer deal, BUT, not sure it is worth buying now when what I really need is... <

And so it begins. :(

- Tim

Great posts VideoGrabber.

I think speculation about the successor to the VP30 being released 4Q/05 or 1Q/06 is wildly optimistic, off the scale even.

aaronwt-How much improvement do you see in SD on your new DLP with and without your DVDO?

Much better running through the HD+ than straight to the TV. A big difference to me.

I preordered the VP30 and if something new comes along early next year, I'll just trade it in for the upgrade. A 4 port HDMI switch is almost $600 so with the trade in of my HD+ and the AVS discount, it is welll worth it. I also plan to sell my SDI RP82 and my SDI module so that will also offset a little of the cost. The upgrade is definitely worth it even if something new comes along next year. DVDO has treated their customers very well in the past and I would think they will continue that tradition.

mark haflich wrote:
> DVDO or ABT is developing its own algorithms to compete and will be coming out with its own chip containing the algorithms. Some of us have seen demonstrations of the new algorithms. They are a work in progress but should be finished in the near future. <

Should be. Could be. Would be. "the near future" is such an amorphous thing.

> What this means is that DVDO will be coming out with a new processor using this chip. They aren't talking yet <

I wonder why that is? Perhaps because they're not stupid? Possibly because work is still at an early stage?

> but it would appear that the machine is only a few months off. Certainly the machine will be available by CES just as the VP30 became available before Cedia and will be on public display there. <

And yet, STILL won't be shipping for another month. Your definition of "available" differs considerably from mine.

> Don't start asking questions here of DVDO. They will make an announcement about this in the near future. <

Once again, I think our definitions differ significantly. I think the "near future" announcement of their next-gen product could well occur at CES (which is, what? _4_ months away?). And they may even show an early prototype implementation at that time. That wouldn't mean that a product would be anywhere close to "available", as in, deliverable, until at least Q3 of '06.

Show of hands... how many here would prefer to forego a "best of class" product that's available next month at a great price point, for a better rumored product that's a year off? I guess those folks don't plan on watching any movies over the next year. This doesn't make any sense to me, especially considering the generous trade-up prgram that DVDO has instituted.

I apologize, Mark, if it seems I'm taking you to task here (because I am). I have a lot of respect for your years of experience in the field, and the many informative postings you've contributed to the Forum. But I think you not only do DVDO a disservice when you post rampant speculation as you've done here, under the guise of informed opinion, but a disservice to the readers as well.

Who knows? You could be right, and I'm full of guano. But my guess is that there is NO CHANCE of a next-gen product shipping this year, or even Q1 of next year. And all you've accomplished is succeeded in getting folks foaming at the mouth here. :(

- Tim

People need to realize that rumors are usually worth exactly what you paid for them... nada. A friend of mine had a phrase he was fond of using... "Go lemmings, go."

Just because I changed my purchasing decision doesn't mean we need to start a crusade. The reasons I decided to purchase the VP30 were:


Price.
DVDO's generous upgrade policy.
A scaler to compliment my 720p front projector.


Since high-def DVD has been shifted to Q1,2/06 I do not need a scaler now. I was also taken back by Sony's 1080p projector for $10K. I am hoping by next summer 1080p projectors will be half that price. So instead of investing in a scaler, I may upgrade my projector instead. Likewise, I still might purchase a scaler, but will do it next summer, where I am assuming every CE product will be 1080p.

PS: If I was the first one to cancel my order, am I still a lemming? :p

Great posts VideoGrabber.

I think speculation about the successor to the VP30 being released 4Q/05 or 1Q/06 is wildly optimistic, off the scale even.

Ditto that.

I would be very surprised to see it released that early.

Regardless, I have pretty much decided to wait for the next gen scaler, whenever it is released (assuming it will do true 1080i deinterlacing).

I keep an eye on this thread for information on any forthcoming new scalers from DVDO. I would like to be "optimistic" that it could be released this year, but I think that is very unlikely in light of the fact the VP30 isn't even shipping yet.

Yea. Great posts. Not. Videograbber you are clueless here. But I still luv ya.

Keenan. Off the scale. Please. Were you at Cedia? Did you talk to anybody at DVDO?

As I said, DVDO is saying nothing official yet. But they, starting at the very top, were optimistic that the new algorithms would be completed soon. Soon being a month or so. Because they are writing the firmware etc, one would imagine from a software perspective it would be relatively easy to incorporate a new chip in with its existing control system/platforms. Thus, they were optimistic that it wouldn't take long to bring a VP40 or whatever it will be called to market.

Not everyone needs 1080p. I do not think the VP40 would replace the VP30. After all, it will be more expensive too.

Let's see. Videograbber. Competitors have announced 1080i motion adaptive deinterlacers for early Q4 this year (Algolith (Realta))), and for Q2 next year (Lumagen(Realta)). Calibre's Realta based Vantage-HD is available now. Anthem will have the Gennum in its full sound/video processor in 2 months. Then there is the Crystalio II with the Gennum. When that is coming I do not know. There are more coming too. Waiting till Q4 next year will be way too late. DVDO or ABT wants to sell chips as well as processors. No big bucks in processors. End of the rainbow pot of gold for chips. So exactly how long can DVDO or ABT wait to have a super chip ready? And how long can they wait to join their processor competitors. A year from now? Please. Time is of the essence for success.

Like I said. Wait for the DVDO announcements. Sorry. Guys I call em on the best information I have. I keep info confidential when I am asked. I do not engage in unfounded speculation. I do not work for any processor company. I do do some beta testing and I do own an A/V store.

Oh yea. Videograbber. I am also an engineer and unlike some (but not all) others posting here, I do understand a little bit about this stuff. I am sorry. But you have ruffled my feathers. I still luv ya.

Given the generous trade-in policy from DVDO and the special AVS pricing on the VP30, it seems to me that there doesn't have to be an either/or choice between the VP30 and whatever comes next. If you need or want a scaler, might as well go ahead and enjoy the VP30 for however many months it takes. Not much to lose.

I think you're absolutely right. I have to remember what I'm actually going to pay for the VP30, given the VERY generous AVS pre-order price and the generous DVDO policies you speak of.

I appreciate everyone's input on this.

Thank you Mark for forwarding as much information to us as you possibly could without breaking rules and putting yourself in line for a lawsuit. ;)

Threads like these are why I come to AVS. :)

OK, let's do the math even though it will surely get me in trouble here. The thing will probably retail for $2500, we're paying $1100 less for the VP30 from AVS, we'll be offered a trade in no better than $1,000, I'm betting. But we'll be able to buy the new one for around $2 grand from AVS. Looks to me like we're leaving $400 on the table give or take. So we buy now or we buy in 6 months and keep the $400. Your choice.

This business about not talking price reminds me of growing up Catholic and not talking about Sex. It was like the elephant in the room, if you get my drift. :D

Dan

OK, let's do the math even though it will surely get me in trouble here. The thing will probably retail for $2500, we're paying $1100 less for the VP30 from AVS, we'll be offered a trade in no better than $1,000, I'm betting. But we'll be able to buy the new one for around $2 grand from AVS. Looks to me like we're leaving $400 on the table give or take. So we buy now or we buy in 6 months and keep the $400. Your choice.

This business about not talking price reminds me of growing up Catholic and not talking about Sex. It was like the elephant in the room, if you get my drift. :D

Dan

D'oh!

Lawsuit? Gee. I have a degree in law too. No Videograbber. No degree in medicine. But Videograbber you are indeed giving me the third degree.

Keenan.
You rang..?

Off the scale. Please.
Figure of speech, and only based on what "I think" and past releases of DVDO product, not on anything that I know as fact.

Were you at Cedia?
No

Did you talk to anybody at DVDO?
No

I still luv ya.
I still luv ya too... :D

Yea. Great posts. Not. Videograbber you are clueless here. But I still luv ya.

Keenan. Off the scale. Please. Were you at Cedia? Did you talk to anybody at DVDO?

As I said, DVDO is saying nothing official yet. But they, starting at the very top, were optimistic that the new algorithms would be completed soon. Soon being a month or so. Because they are writing the firmware etc, one would imagine from a software perspective it would be relatively easy to incorporate a new chip in with its existing control system/platforms. Thus, they were optimistic that it wouldn't take long to bring a VP40 or whatever it will be called to market.

Not everyone needs 1080p. I do not think the VP40 would replace the VP30. After all, it will be more expensive too.

Let's see. Videograbber. Competitors have announced 1080i motion adaptive deinterlacers for early Q4 this year (Algolith (Realta))), and for Q2 next year (Lumagen(Realta)). Calibre's Realta based Vantage-HD is available now. Anthem will have the Gennum in its full sound/video processor in 2 months. Then there is the Crystalio II with the Gennum. When that is coming I do not know. There are more coming too. Waiting till Q4 next year will be way too late. DVDO or ABT wants to sell chips as well as processors. No big bucks in processors. End of the rainbow pot of gold for chips. So exactly how long can DVDO or ABT wait to have a super chip ready? And how long can they wait to join their processor competitors. A year from now? Please. Time is of the essence for success.

Like I said. Wait for the DVDO announcements. Sorry. Guys I call em on the best information I have. I keep info confidential when I am asked. I do not engage in unfounded speculation. I do not work for any processor company. I do do some beta testing and I do own an A/V store.

Oh yea. Videograbber. I am also an engineer and unlike some (but not all) others posting here, I do understand a little bit about this stuff. I am sorry. But you have ruffled my feathers. I still luv ya.

Mark,

If DVDO is going to make an ASIC it is going take nine months after they
finalized algorithms to make this happen ( go to layout, tape out, test,
etc. ). What is more likely is an FPGA based video processor out in the
shorter term and their own chip out in the longer term.

Even with this, it would make no sense to release two products within
months of each other unless one would be substantially higher end
at a substantially higher m.s.r.p. - say at least $2999...

Best regards,

Tony

We're probably well on our way to getting this thread locked or deleted. :D

Hiya Mark! When you coming to New Mexico??

Dan

Dan. When it comes to sex, there is no need to talk about it. Like the Nike ads say, just do it.

Tony. I know they just came out with the VP30. I think HDMI drove that out together with a need to at least primitively (god, bob) 1080i deinterlacing. But the market is rapidly changing. The Gennum and Realta chips have changed the landscape much as the old DVDO chips, the Faroudja chips, and the Silicon Optics chips did in the past. If DVDO wants to play with the big boys, it can't buy chips from them. It must have and sell its own chip. Sure it could use a FPGA until its chips are made. But it can't use somebody elses algs or somebody's specific chip. If indeed its own chip is nine months away, it must get its algs on a FPGA and get a new processor out there to demonstrate its algs, pronto. I still say the VP40 will be here on or close to the schedule I have opined on. And I said between $2500 and $3000. Sure $3000 makes more sense to me. Let's just wait until DVDO makes an official announcement.

Let's just wait until DVDO makes an official announcement.

Fair enough :-)

Given the AVS Forum pricing, regardless of when the our next product comes out, you don't stand to lose much, if any, money when you upgrade.

Just do the math:

AVS Forum Pre-Order Price
$1999 MSRP

vs.

$1000 (iScan HD+ Trade-In Value)
$1499 MSRP

Josh. Welcome back. Now that you are here, I can catch a few zzzzzs. Of course, others might say if I am asleep, this would be the only time for you to safely catch a few zzzzs too. Now Dale, he never sleeps.

Hi Guys!
Now for the most obvious question for those who have seen VP30 in action: How does VP30 do for SD/DVD material compared to HD/HD+?

Vinod - I think it would be hard to comment on that as the HD+ we had in our booth was driving a Brillian 65" 1080p and the iScan VP30 we had set up in an A/B comparison with two 50" plasmas (1366x768).

Josh: Maybe I'm missing something with your comments...

Are you saying DVDO hasn't compared the performance between the HD+ and your new scaler the VP30?

Ron

PS: I wanted to talk to someone directly at your offices to answer a couple of quesitons about the VP30. I left a message, but no call back. I tried again later in the day and still got the answering machine. Is there a good time to generally call? thanks

Ron - What I was trying to say is if Vinod was asking for comments from people other than myself, I wanted to explain the only experience they would have had with the VP30 and how it would be difficult for them to come to a conclusion. The simple answer is that high frequency detail is resolved better with 10-bit scaling vs. the HD+'s 9-bit scaling, but it also depends on your screen size and resolution when determining the improvement.

The only reason you could not reach anyone is that most of the sales team just came back from CEDIA today and more than likely the available staff was handling other calls. If you call between 9am and 5pm Pacific Time Monday-Friday you will get a human being.

Hi Josh,

will the VP30 have a gamma-equalizer like the Lumagen video processors?

The Lumagen gamma-equalizer allows 11 free defineable IRE points (e.g. 12 IRE, 23 IRE etc.). For each defined point you can set the R, G, and B levels. This allows a perfect calibration of every display regarding color balance and gamma tracking.

If not, could we expect such a feature for a (near) future firmware update?

Thanks.

Ron - What I was trying to say is if Vinod was asking for comments from people other than myself, I wanted to explain the only experience they would have had with the VP30 and how it would be difficult for them to come to a conclusion. The simple answer is that high frequency detail is resolved better with 10-bit scaling vs. the HD+'s 9-bit scaling, but it also depends on your screen size and resolution when determining the improvement.

The only reason you could not reach anyone is that most of the sales team just came back from CEDIA today and more than likely the available staff was handling other calls. If you call between 9am and 5pm Pacific Time Monday-Friday you will get a human being.


Got it-thanks for the quick response. I appreciate it. Even though I have been keeping up on all of the great CEDIA reports....like an idiot, I completely forgot to factor that into the call factor. Thanks Again

Ron

fellas,

Lets keep the VP40 discussions on a dedicated thread. It has nothing to do with the VP30.

Any info on the VP40 at this point is irrelevant and is not helping anyone who might be interested in purchasing VP30. Once we have official info from DVDO, lets create a dedicated thread for that.

Lets keep this thread in focus - VP30.

Mark Haflich,

I think everyone has already figured out your feelings towards Sil504 and video deinterlacing + 1080i bob.

Lets not keep shooting the dead horse, it's dead already... Everyone understands the pros and cons of this and so it's time for us to move to other aspects of the product.

My thread locking finger is itching, but I REALLY hate locking threads (particularly product oriented ones).

Lets keep Rhetoric to an acceptable level and keep this thread on target.

Hi Josh,

will the VP30 have a gamma-equalizer like the Lumagen video processors?

If not, could we expect such a feature for a (near) future firmware update?


At launch, the iScan VP30 will not have gamma control.

Let me preface this next statement by saying that we don't talk about upcoming features (or products for that matter ;) ) until they are much closer to release. Gamma control is a very interesting feature and we understand the value both to the customer and their calibrator.

Their will eventually be an iScan VP40, this is a logical progression in the naming convention, and it will incorporate more ABT technologies. The time frames being discussed are not reality.

...The time frames being discussed are not reality.

Didn't think so!

Thanks for clearing that up Josh.

That's what I needed to know, thanks Josh. Think I'll go ahead and get my VP30. Hope it's feelings don't get hurt by sitting on top of a Faroudja NRS in my rack. :D

(for those of you who don't know, I'm going to continue to process my SD sources through the Faroudja).

Sorry I wasn't at Cedia to come by and personally thank you for your participation on this forum. Thanks! :)

Their will eventually be an iScan VP40, this is a logical progression in the naming convention, and it will incorporate more ABT technologies. The time frames being discussed are not reality.

I didn't think so, either.

Thank you Josh! I'm really glad you made it into this thread to set the record completely straight and clear up any potential misconceptions or misunderstandings. :)

I am going to be trading in my Iscan HD for the VP30, and I am trying to figure out the best way to connect everything. Here is what I am using. Mits 65813 RPTV. Motorola 6200 HD cable box with dvi out, or component, Zenith SAT HD520 with dvi, or component out, Denon 3910 SDI out, JVC 5U with dvi, or component out. I am currently not running my cable box, JVC 5U, or hd from the SAT into the Iscan. So I have the Iscan connected to the Mits via HD-15 to 3 rca. This tv also has a dvi input. I would like to be able to connect my cable box, JVC 5U, and the SAT 520 into the VP30. So tell me if this would work. Motorola 6200 via dvi>hdmi>VP30, then coaxial digital into VP30. JVC 5U hdmi>VP30. Zenith SAT HD250 via component>VP30, then optical into VP30. I want to be able to view both SD and HD material from the Motorola 6200, and the Zenith SAT HD520. I also want to be able to process 720p to 1080I or 540p. So, as far as connecting the VP30 to my Mits, should I go HDMI>DVI>Mits, or component out of the VP30 to component into the Mits?

You would need to use the HDMI out. Any content with HDCP won't go through the analog outputs.

Well I guess the preorder deadline is going to come and go without a review. Very disappointing for us fence sitters

That's why it is a preorder - you are buying sight unseen, and getting a nice break as payment. You can also do what I usually do, wait till the tail end of the product cycle, after everything is known, we are all sick of hearing about the item, and there are a couple generations of new gear available. Prices are usually REALLY nice then, also. ;)

Well I guess the preorder deadline is going to come and go without a review. Very disappointing for us fence sitters


I can understand how you would like to read a review prior to buying. But, as the other member described the typical "cycle"...we are in phase 1. The phase where early adopters, who have either past DVDO products (ie HD or HD+) know what we are getting into and love the product. That's why so many are interested in their trade-in program.

But for those new to the game, there is something better than a review, it's called a demo period. The period of time DVDO allows customers to try their products in THEIR systems. See for yourself, instead of someone telling you what you should like or not like (let's face it how many times does the person doing the review have the exact same set-up as you...NEVER, since their set up, if the same, isn't in your specific home enviroment).

Here is a copy of their 30 day guarantee:

http://www.dvdo.com/faq/faq_sat.php

Just a thought, instead of waiting...

GL
Ron

I can understand how you would like to read a review prior to buying. But, as the other member described the typical "cycle"...we are in phase 1. The phase where early adopters, who have either past DVDO products (ie HD or HD+) know what we are getting into and love the product. That's why so many are interested in their trade-in program.

But for those new to the game, there is something better than a review, it's called a demo period. The period of time DVDO allows customers to try their products in THEIR systems. See for yourself, instead of someone telling you what you should like or not like (let's face it how many times does the person doing the review have the exact same set-up as you...NEVER, since their set up, if the same, isn't in your specific home enviroment).

Here is a copy of their 30 day guarantee:

http://www.dvdo.com/faq/faq_sat.php

Just a thought, instead of waiting...

GL
Ron


There's simply no way to lose, given that combined with the AVS preorder price.

I'm getting anxious! I hope it ships soon!

I'm getting anxious! I hope it ships soon!

It's my understanding we are at least 45 days out (or more).

Ron

:eek: 45 DAYS!! :eek:

Yeah really. I was hoping I'd get one in time for Thanksgiving when family members who I won't be seeing for another 1-2 years are planning to visit. :(

:eek: 45 DAYS!! :eek:

That's good news for me. I'll have enough room on my credit card by then. ;)

Yeah really. I was hoping I'd get one in time for Thanksgiving when family members who I won't be seeing for another 1-2 years are planning to visit. :(

I would assume that end of October would be a pretty good projection from DVDO...as least that's what they are estimating. I would imagine that even there was a delay, Thanksgiving would be a fair expectation.

Again, I would assume that it goes without saying that I am a customer like you, who knows only what they said on the phone yesterday when i ordered mine.

Ron

It's my understanding we are at least 45 days out (or more).

Ron

That puts it in the time frame that some others were saying the VP40 would be shipping!! :eek: :D :p

I would assume that end of October would be a pretty good projection from DVDO...as least that's what they are estimating. I would imagine that even there was a delay, Thanksgiving would be a fair expectation.

Again, I would assume that it goes without saying that I am a customer like you, who knows only what they said on the phone yesterday when i ordered mine.

Ron

Hopefully since I was one of the first to order I will get mine in the
next couple of weeks...

Hopefully since I was one of the first to order I will get mine in the
next couple of weeks...

That's the impression I was given since I was amongst the first of the AVS preorder people a while back. I'll let you all know! ;)

Will they be filling all the preorders in the first production run? I didn't order mine until a week after the AVS discount with trade in was offered.

Will they be filling all the preorders in the first production run? I didn't order mine until a week after the AVS discount with trade in was offered.

If it's important....why wouldn't you just call them directly?

Ron

Will they be filling all the preorders in the first production run? I didn't order mine until a week after the AVS discount with trade in was offered.

Jason just responded to an email of mine, so if you call him and leave a voicemail, I suspect he'll get back to you promptly. Or just the email...

EDIT: He told me in an email just now that they expect to ship sometime in mid-October.

Keep in mind, I'm near the top of the list of AVS preorders, so I have no idea how many others will also see their units ship to them during this time period.

If it's important....why wouldn't you just call them directly?

Ron

...maybe because Aaron wanted us all to benefit from the answer... ^_^

Sorry for a silly question.

Is it possible to use TV/ Plasma speakers with this VP30? (I'm using tv speaker 95% of time and do not want to change that)

Thank you for any advice.

VN2000

...maybe because Aaron wanted us all to benefit from the answer... ^_^

Fair enough. My reasoning was with something as specific as where would one stand in a purchase quere...it could only be specifically answered by DVDO. But, I certainly would understand why it would be a useful general information to others.

Ron

Fair enough. My reasoning was with something as specific as where would one stand in a purchase quere...it could only be specifically answered by DVDO. But, I certainly would understand why it would be a useful general information to others.

Ron
Well, my order number(ordered yesterday from DVDO-HD+ trade-in) was 1930 if that means anything...

vn2000 - I would sure assume as much - just feed the audio out of the VP30 into the tv - be it plasma, crt, or whatever. I'm sure you have audio inputs for when you connect and watch a dvd player - just pretend the VP30 is your dvd player, hook it up in the same fashion.

Well, my order number(ordered yesterday from DVDO-HD+ trade-in) was 1930 if that means anything...

It must mean something, I just ordered mine too and my number is 1916.

Mine is 183x from 9/1.

Hi,

Does anyone have any idea how good a job the VP30 does converting signals to 720p?

I'd be feeding it the standard mix of material:
480i - SD cable
480p - DVD
720p - HD cable
1080i - HD cable

It would be a mix of film and video based material.

I have an HTPC now, and like the improvement DScaler and FFDshow make to DVD's. I'm able to output them at 720p to my projector, and I'm assuming the VP30 image would be at least as good as a DScaler + FFDShow combination.

However, even on 720p and 1080i HD material via my cable company, there are jaggies (I don't like jaggies!) and other such artifacts that I'd like to improve.

Thanks!

Does anyone have any idea how good a job the VP30 does converting signals to 720p?

The VP30 is designed as an improvement on the existing iScan HD+, which does a fine job of converting to 720p. Please see the HD+ threads for more details on that subject.

Flyingvee,

Thank you for your response. But the audio output from VP30 is digital and therefore you cannot hook up directly to TV audio IN which are mostly analog (mine is analog) DVDO tech has advised me that there is no simple solution outside of using a receiver (you would need an external d-a audio processor) and then connect head phone OUT to TV RCA audio IN.

Cheers,
VN2000

Ooops -sorry. That's too bad. You could buy a cheap receiver, just to do what you want, but that would cost 150 or so, and give you a big extra box for hardly any use. OTOH, that is what I have to do with my stereo rig - my fancy Rotel head unit has every bell and whistle on the planet, except a phono input. So I am stuck using my old preamp purely for the phone preamp. Which is still less money than an external preamp; likewise, a cheap receiver would be less money than an external da.

Flyingvee,

Thank you for your response. But the audio output from VP30 is digital and therefore you cannot hook up directly to TV audio IN which are mostly analog (mine is analog) DVDO tech has advised me that there is no simple solution outside of using a receiver (you would need an external d-a audio processor) and then connect head phone OUT to TV RCA audio IN.

Cheers,
VN2000

I would assume with the HDMI out with th VP30, you can use that to send the audio to the TV speakers.

On a related note - sorry if this has already been covered, but I couldn't find a reference to it.

A potential problem with the audio out of the VP30 would seem to arise from the fact that if the HDMI signal into the Vp30 is HDCP encoded, only the HDMI audio out is available for audio out - the coax and opt outputs are disabled.

I've scan read all 52 pages of the HDMI/HDCP license agreement. See section 3.3 of exhibit 3 "Compliance Rules", page 33. Sorry, but can't post URL here as I've not made sufficient posts to be allowed to do that.

I think DVDO can get around the HDCP audio out issue to some extent by redefining the VP 30's category.

Another option would be to just simply add a DIVI output connector such as found on the HD+, if Intel won't play ball. The HD+ can process HDCP signals through its DIVI connector and provide decoded digital audio through its optical and coax outputs.

I think DVDO has no choice but to come up with a satisfactory solution to this problem as most HT systems do not use the audio out connections of the display ( if indeed it has any, and then a full DTS output at that) to feed back into external receiver/amps.

I think too that Intel may well have to reconsider their limitations on only allowing a PCM 48KHz sampling audio signal to be "siphoned off" from an encoded HDCP signal stream, as this would seem to preclude outputting full DTS signals and the like. Just listening to a stereo or severely compressed 16 bit version of a fantastic 5.1 DVD just wouldn't do!!

Does anyone have a definitive answer on this issue?

Cheers,

Phil.

P.S. Yes, yes, I know that the audio coming from the source need not go thru the VP30, but that to my mind defeats the whole purpose of having a beaut A/V hub where you can adjust the audio for lip-sync. I don't want to go backwards from my HD+!!!!

I am a little behind in this thread so please forgive me if this has been asked already, I didn't come up with anything via the search

I was wondering if we would have control over 1080i HDTV sources input into the VP30, for example, my Dish Network 942 HDTV pvr has a nasty chroma bug and needs some other picture controls tweaked

will one be able to adjust all picture controls and input adjustments when inputing 1080i hdtv signals??

-Gary

I am a little behind in this thread so please forgive me if this has been asked already, I didn't come up with anything via the search

I was wondering if we would have control over 1080i HDTV sources input into the VP30, for example, my Dish Network 942 HDTV pvr has a nasty chroma bug and needs some other picture controls tweaked

will one be able to adjust all picture controls and input adjustments when inputing 1080i hdtv signals??

-Gary

Yes, from my reading of the VP30 specs and of course going by the way my current HD+ performs with 1080i on the DVI input, where the signal is processed rather than passed thru, it should give you complete control over all the pic parameters that are available for any other of the processed inputs.

Phil.

I figured as much, thanks Phil

I would like to request(if possible) that the DVDO guys make the Y/C adjustment a much finer parameter than currently is used on the HD/HD+, the adjustment has to large of steps to do any good :(

while we are at it How about a vertical Y/C adjustment also :)

Damn Dish HD Mpeg Decoder's are all a real mess

-Gary

Yes, from my reading of the VP30 specs and of course going by the way my current HD+ performs with 1080i on the DVI input, where the signal is processed rather than passed thru, it should give you complete control over all the pic parameters that are available for any other of the processed inputs.

Phil.
Hey Phil

I have heard back from DVDOP and this issue is being looked at as we speak and at the moment this issue is at the top of their list

Hey Phil

I have heard back from DVDOP and this issue is being looked at as we speak and at the moment this issue is at the top of their list

G'day Glenn. Great to hear from a pal 'back home'!. Amazing - this transcontinental stuff. Thanks for this info - I take it you are referring to the HDMI/HDCP audio problem. Puts my mind a little more at ease.

Cheers,

Phil.

I have pre-ordered a VP30 and I am a current HD+ owner. Seeing some of the posts with regards to HDMI audio processing/switching, like others I have some concerns.

When I purchase a NEW HD-DVD or Blue-Ray DVD player how will I get the audio to my 7.1 audio set-up? With this statement from Dolby Labs I have begun to wonder,
"Dolby TrueHD and Dolby Digital Plus technologies are mandatory audio codecs in the HD DVD format as well as optional features in the Blu-ray Disc format."

I can only assume that the physical interface for these Dolby Labs codecs will be HDMI and these NEW codecs will not be availabe over the current digital interfaces, SPDIF either coax or optical. I am not sure that SPDIF can support the data rates required.

Reading the VP30 FAQ I found this statement,
"The HDMI inputs will also accept audio, given that the video signal is on the same input. If the incoming HDMI signal has HDCP, then the iScan VP30 can not output this audio using the optical or coaxial digital outputs, only the HDMI output."

There appears to be only 1 way to put the VP30 in my system so that I can take advantage of the NEW Audio Codec technology (if it will only be available over the HDMI interface), I will have to route my source (DVD in this case) to the VP30 over HDMI, then from VP30 to my Audio Processor (receiver or what ever you use) over HDMI (for the audio portion of the content), and then to my display (for the video portion of the content). I write this because I assume that you cannot route the output of the source device to the receiver first because of the same HDMI audio limitations that you cannot "strip" the audio from the video when using HDMI.
(EDIT 10:41AM Sept. 20 - Having thought about what I just wrote, the Audio Processor/receiver SHOULD be able to process the AUDIO and then pass the VIDEO to the Video device, that makes sense, but then can the VP30 accept ONLY video via the HDMI input. If it can, then one could route all HDMI connections through the Audio Processor/receiver and the VP30 would be the Video processor. This causes me some concern about the digital video processing that will take place in the Audio Processor/receiver, though - perhaps I worry too much?)

If my understanding is correct in this matter, I will have to purchase a NEW HDMI Audio Processor/reciever in order to take FULL advantage of this technology.

Also, routing the signal through the Audio Processor (receiver) is another component in the digital path which means more processing which means more error insertion into the video signal.

Here in lies another problem, will my Audio Processor, which will also be used for some Video routing be capable of supporting all video formats, frame rates, etc? Will the Audio Processor have the necessary bandwidth for this application. 720p, 1080i or 1080p?

Also, I add another HDMI Source (Cable Box, Satellite Box, etc), as an input to the VP30, the VP30 would act as a NICE switcher, but I have to rely on the Audio Processor (receiver) as the last passthrough/processing step.

I believe one solution would be for the VP30 to have 2 HDMI Outputs, one used for Video and one for Audio, this would mean that I would still need to purchase a NEW Audio Processor, but I would not be limiting my Video performance by using an Audio Processor.

If none of this makes sense, please feel free to let me know. Perhaps, I am "viewing" this all wrong, please forgive me, as I am a bit sleep deprived, new fathers you know what I mean.

I welcome your comments.

I

Reading the VP30 FAQ I found this statement,
"The HDMI inputs will also accept audio, given that the video signal is on the same input. If the incoming HDMI signal has HDCP, then the iScan VP30 can not output this audio using the optical or coaxial digital outputs, only the HDMI output."



Josh at DVDO, or Dale - please chime in. If the above is true, I need to cancel my order - I just picked up a 2k Rotel prepro, and I am NOT going to dump it just so I can use the VP30. I can live with HDMI, but I really need the audio over SPDIF.

And here I was so excited about my low preorder number :(

Guys, if I understand what you're saying, in order to get 7.1 discrete PCM over HDMI from a future HD-DVD or BD , you'll have to get an HDMI (V1.2?) splitter (unless the unit has dual outs, which it may), or a hardwired splitter that duplicates the signal and makes sure it gets to both the processor and the TV. It can be done, and I'm sure solutions will abound, but until HDMI gets up and running with full capability, early chips, which aren't upgradeable for security reasons, won't be able to read the 7.1 PCM audio. However, if all you want is a Dolby Digital or DTS feed, that will come from the coa or optical anyway.

Also, routing the signal through the Audio Processor (receiver) is another component in the digital path which means more processing which means more error insertion into the video signal.
One of the main advantages of having a digital signal in the first place is that you don't suffer generational loss - i.e., the signal is not degraded when copied. As long as your audio processor is not doing anything to the HDMI video signal other than switching it, then there should be no loss. Granted, the audio processor could degrade the signal if it's not correctly designed or implemented. But it shouldn't.

- Dale Adams

I just picked up a 2k Rotel prepro, and I am NOT going to dump it just so I can use the VP30. I can live with HDMI, but I really need the audio over SPDIF.

Why can't you use the SPDIF in the Rotel? Direct connect from the source. The only limitatin is that you can't do that with 7.1 PCM which doesn't yet exist and which requires HDMI 1.2, I believe.

Josh at DVDO, or Dale - please chime in. If the above is true, I need to cancel my order - I just picked up a 2k Rotel prepro, and I am NOT going to dump it just so I can use the VP30. I can live with HDMI, but I really need the audio over SPDIF.
This is more a matter of what the HDMI/HDCP requirements are rather than any innate capability of the VP30. You'll likely find the same issues with any HDMI processor or HDMI audio source which encrypts the signal.

I am certainly not an expert on this, but I believe there is an allowance to output the digital audio signal over the S/PDIF outputs as long as it's downsampled to a relatively low rate and bit resolution (48 kHz, I think, and only 16 bits per sample). Again, this is a limitation imposed by the HDMI/HDCP spec, not the VP30. This does, of course, negate the benefit of the higher resolution/sampling-rate audio signals in the first place.

The VP30 does not downsample the incoming audio signal, and so will not output HDCP-encrypted audio on any output other than HDMI.

- Dale Adams

but u will have to do audio delay urself in the audio processor, right ? (I mean when routing the HDMI out first to an audio processor which in turn split the video to the Vp30, for the future HD-DVD)

John - A big reason I chose the VP30 (or any DVDO product) over a Lumagen, is for the onboard audio delay, to avoid the lip-synch problem. If I am forced to take SPDIF direct, I may as well have a Lumagen.

John - A big reason I chose the VP30 (or any DVDO product) over a Lumagen, is for the onboard audio delay, to avoid the lip-synch problem. If I am forced to take SPDIF direct, I may as well have a Lumagen.
Is there some reason you can't run the S/PDIF signals into the VP30? (Not enough inputs?) If you don't have an audio processor capable of handling HDMI, you're going to have problems with HDMI audio regardless of which video processor you have.

- Dale Adams

FlyingVee just sank my ship also :(, that totally slipped my mind, the ease of connecting all my sources in via HDMI video and audio and outputing via coaxial audio to my Sherwood P-965 would have kicked Ass and was mandatory because of delays needed to be added via the VP30 due to video processing

How many Audio inputs are there?? 4?? I guess that could do if all my HDMI sources have a audio ouput including upcoming Blu-Ray Etc

If these new players/formats only output audio via HDMI then they can **** off

-Gary

I guess that could do if all my HDMI sources have a audio ouput including upcoming Blu-Ray Etc

Unfortunately, HD-DVD and BD are, in all likelihood, going to use HDMI with HDCP for full-resolution audio signals, so even if you aren't using a VP30, you will still need a surround pre-pro with HDMI/HDCP inputs. Besides the copy-protection that the movie industry (rightly) feel they need, S/PDIF cannot transmit multichannel hi-res audio.

--Andre

How many Audio inputs are there?? 4??
4 digital (2 coax and 2 optical), and 1 analog (L/R stereo pair).

- Dale Adams

Ok - obviously I am worrying about something I don't even fully understand -Sorry, and you can hopefully raise your ship, Gary (mine also.) Dale, and Andre - sounds like I still don't grasp all the ramifications of HDMI and HDCP - I knew it created video problems, it just never sunk in that they were also messing with the audio part. No - I have no problem feeding SPDIF into the VP, or accepting the output of it. I just hadn't realized that an HDMI signal could also require ALL audio tracks to be HDMI only. I just kept thinking DVI, with a second optical or coax cable to carry the audio tracks using SPDIF. Since at the moment, I will be converting from HDMI out to DVI anyway, I was ignoring that an audio track could be carried over HDMI.

So, if Andre turns out to be right, I will need to get a prepro that can decode HDMI audio. Bummer. Maybe I'll sit out BluRay this time around. Really sorry to be confusing the issue, Dale.

How will the audio be impacted if we use a SDI mod DVD player? Should work the same as the current systems do, right? We just have to wait and see how things work when Blu-ray and any other systems come out.

flyingvee,

I imagine there will be a backwards-compatible option, like what Dale writes about reduced-resolution content and probably DD 5.1. But we do know, for example, that Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD will be decoded inside the first HD players, and audio will be output as PCM.

--Andre

Ok - obviously I am worrying about something I don't even fully understand -Sorry, and you can hopefully raise your ship, Gary (mine also.) Dale, and Andre - sounds like I still don't grasp all the ramifications of HDMI and HDCP - I knew it created video problems, it just never sunk in that they were also messing with the audio part. No - I have no problem feeding SPDIF into the VP, or accepting the output of it. I just hadn't realized that an HDMI signal could also require ALL audio tracks to be HDMI only. I just kept thinking DVI, with a second optical or coax cable to carry the audio tracks using SPDIF. Since at the moment, I will be converting from HDMI out to DVI anyway, I was ignoring that an audio track could be carried over HDMI.

So, if Andre turns out to be right, I will need to get a prepro that can decode HDMI audio. Bummer. Maybe I'll sit out BluRay this time around. Really sorry to be confusing the issue, Dale.
No need to apologize. It's a confusing subject. Prior to this we haven't really had a widely used, single connection which carried both audio and video, let alone one with content protection imposed on it. Add to that the fact that we have little or no practical experience with such devices, and none at all with the forthcoming HD optical sources, and it's no wonder everyone (myself included) isn't at least a little in the dark. I'm sure there will be plenty of surprises in store (mostly unpleasant, I'm afraid) for us all as more devices become available.

Note that I don't really have much of anything to do with this portion of DVDO's products, so I'm anything but an expert on this. Perhaps someone out there who does know more about how it's all supposed to work could chime in?

- Dale Adams

HDMI specs are still being developed and some updates address audio: here is a link:

http://www.hdmi.org/consumer/faq.asp

and a quote:

Does HDMI support Dolby 5.1 audio and high-resolution audio formats?

Yes. From the start, HDMI was defined to carry 8-channels, of 192kHz, 24-bit uncompressed audio, which exceeds all current consumer media formats. In addition, HDMI can carry any flavor of compressed audio format such as Dolby or DTS. (Such compressed formats are the only multi-channel or high-resolution audio formats that can be carried across the older S/PDIF or AES/EBU interfaces.) The fact that the vast majority of HDMI products shipped are two-channel TVs that don’t support more than two-channel audio doesn’t make this any less the case. Most existing HDMI sources can output any compressed stream, and the newer sources can output uncompressed 6-channel, 96kHz audio from a DVD-Audio disk. There are several A/V receivers on the market that can accept and process the 6- or 8-channel audio from HDMI and more are expected to be available shortly.

Will HDMI support SACD?

The HDMI Founders designed the HDMI specification to be dynamic. HDMI has plenty of extra bandwidth to accommodate future audio and video requirements, and the Founders are committed to evaluating and updating the specification to help accommodate new audio and video formats that may be introduced in the foreseeable future. As an example, since the introduction of the initial HDMI 1.0 specification, the HDMI 1.1 specification supporting DVD-Audio has already been introduced. The HDMI Founders do not comment on future revisions of the spec, however there is no technical reason why HDMI could not support SACD.

Note that 1.2 supports one-bit audio (ie. SACD). It is surprisingly flexible as well.

--Andre

Thanks for the link and the quote, Mark. I imagine HDMI related posts - questions, and problems, will probably eat a large part of your AVS bandwidth in the next couple of years. Perhaps you could send someone a bill?

Just so I'm clear, this audio extraction issue when using HDMI is only going to factor in when/if HiRez DVDPs finally hit the market. It should not be an issue with any/most current source equipment(current DVDPs, cable boxes, sat boxes)..?

Just so I'm clear, this audio extraction issue when using HDMI is only going to factor in when/if HiRez DVDPs finally hit the market. It should not be an issue with any/most current source equipment(current DVDPs, cable boxes, sat boxes)..?


or in other words: connect hdmi AND SPDIF from the player to the vp30 and the VP30 will send the picture out to hdmi (maybe with audio but it isn't used) and it will also delay the audio from the SPDIF and send it out to the SPDIF output.

Is that the way it works with "low-definition"-audio...?

Only! when using HD-audio, which isn't there yet anyway, the HDMI-output must be used?

Just so I'm clear, this audio extraction issue when using HDMI is only going to factor in when/if HiRez DVDPs finally hit the market. It should not be an issue with any/most current source equipment(current DVDPs, cable boxes, sat boxes)..?

it depends on the encryption flag from the source: if the flag is set for 'copy never' the digital audio will be shut off from the HDMI: other settings such as 'copy once' or copy freely' you will get digital audio over HDMI

It should not be an issue with most current sources assuming the flags are set correctly

( imagine having to call your cableco and tell them the flags are set incorrectly: I did and it took a month but they did fix them)

I asked Jim Strommen from DVDO-support, that's the answer:

--
Yeah, that’s up in the air right now. It has to do with the HDCP licensing. We think we’ll be able to pass 48kHz@16-bit audio out the optical and coax digital outs (from HDMI/HDCP in) however that forces us to exclude DTS (48kHz@20-bit or 48kHz@24-bit).

Currently the question has been posed to the people at Digital Content Protection, LLC – the group which wrote the HDCP standard (a spin-off of Intel).

We are asking for our customers patience while we determine what we can and can’t do with the signal.

---

Honestly, I think everybody agrees: This sucks big time.
I always believed they are screwing us with the protection crap. This is the proof now.

"Maybe DD, but not DTS." Damn, I hate those guys (not DVDO, they just do what they have to).

I think the only solution for now would be to use SDI and get rid of all that crap related to HDCP.

But it will certainly show up it in the future again.

Perhaps this might help.

http://www.spatz-tech.de/

You want to be looking for the DVIMagic product

it depends on the encryption flag from the source: if the flag is set for 'copy never' the digital audio will be shut off from the HDMI: other settings such as 'copy once' or copy freely' you will get digital audio over HDMI

It should not be an issue with most current sources assuming the flags are set correctly

( imagine having to call your cableco and tell them the flags are set incorrectly: I did and it took a month but they did fix them)
Okay, since the only HiRez audio source I have now is DVD-A and SA-CD then I have no problem. By the time HD DVD players come out I will probably be looking at a new VP anyway so the VP30 will be just fine for a DirecTV HD-TiVo, a Dish 942, a Motorola Phase III cable box and an OTA HDTV tuner, all with HDMI out. No worries..thanks. :)

Perhaps this might help.

You want to be looking for the DVIMagic product

Yes, but this device doesn't solve the HDMI/HDCP Audio problem. The issue here is that currently you cannot get a decoded audio signal out of the VP30 other than out of the HDMI outlet connector. The Opto and Coax audio connectors will only have a downconverted 16 bit data stream on them at best - no DTS.

But, at least there is a device now that allows my non-HDCP display to be connected to a HDCP source AND now it's digital all the way - previously only a DVI/HDCP signal could be output to analog VGA. Now, if these people were to provide a decoded audio Coax/Opto output as well, we would have a solution to the current VP30 problem.

I am not worried as long as I can split & send video through HDMI & audio through SPDIF/Optical(DD/DTS) from the source device to VP30 for switching & delay. Once the HD-DVD/Bluray specs are finalized we all will be forced to buy receivers or processors with HDMI input.

I am not worried as long as I can split & send video through HDMI & audio through SPDIF/Optical(DD/DTS) from the source device to VP30 for switching & delay. Once the HD-DVD/Bluray specs are finalized we all will be forced to buy receivers or processors with HDMI input.

Yes, but realise that if you have 4 HDMI/HDCP sources connected to the VP30, and you use the 4 digital inputs of the VP30 to bypass the HDMI/HDCP audio signal on the 4 HDMI sockets, you will have used up ALL of your digital audio inputs on the VP30. None left for any Components/S-Video/Video sources you might have.

I asked Jim Strommen from DVDO-support, that's the answer:

--
Yeah, that’s up in the air right now. It has to do with the HDCP licensing. We think we’ll be able to pass 48kHz@16-bit audio out the optical and coax digital outs (from HDMI/HDCP in) however that forces us to exclude DTS (48kHz@20-bit or 48kHz@24-bit).

Currently the question has been posed to the people at Digital Content Protection, LLC – the group which wrote the HDCP standard (a spin-off of Intel).

We are asking for our customers patience while we determine what we can and can’t do with the signal.

---

Honestly, I think everybody agrees: This sucks big time.
I always believed they are screwing us with the protection crap. This is the proof now.

"Maybe DD, but not DTS." Damn, I hate those guys (not DVDO, they just do what they have to).

I think the only solution for now would be to use SDI and get rid of all that crap related to HDCP.

But it will certainly show up it in the future again.

Yes. I think the problem is related more to the use of HDMI socketing (rather than DVI). We have had DVI with HDCP for a while now, and of course there was no problem as you can't put an audio signal over a DVI connector. It seems to me that if a manufacturer wants to use the Intel developed HDMI connector, they are in bed de facto with the DCP/LCC group and are forced through legal agreements to apply HDCP "protection" to the audio as well. Using a DVI connector, they can circumvent this issue. Now, I imagine it's too late for DVDO to provide an additional DVI connector on the back of the chasiss as I believe the hardware is now fixed - only a software mod can be made to overcome the problem.

By the way, SDI to my knowledge can only go up to 480/576i - not exactly HD.

Phil.

Yes, but realise that if you have 4 HDMI/HDCP sources connected to the VP30, and you use the 4 digital inputs of the VP30 to bypass the HDMI/HDCP audio signal on the 4 HDMI sockets, you will have used up ALL of your digital audio inputs on the VP30. None left for any Components/S-Video/Video sources you might have.
This is why I think they should have added a few more digital audio inputs. It could have been in the spot where they put the analog audio inputs.

This is why I think they should have added a few more digital audio inputs. It could have been in the spot where they put the analog audio inputs.

Hm.... I rather like the analog inputs - great for the VCR connection. But, to continue, what if in the near future sources are going to restrict audio HDCP to ONLY their HDMI connectors. Then the sh....t will truly hit the fan! That's not that unlikely. They may force STBs (sorry, Set Top Boxes) or DVD players for example to only output 48KHz PCM 16 bit (i.e low-fi) on the Opto/Coax digital audio outputs and only provide DTS 5.1 over the HDMI connection.

OK. What is SPDIF?

S/PDIF (Sony/Philips Digital Interface Format) is an old standard used for transmitting 2-channel digital PCM audio. It's what the coax, Toslink, AES/EBU (with qualifications below) digital outputs on your CD or DVD player use. For non-PCM material like Dolby Digital, DTS, and MPEG audio, the same format is used except the audio data is no longer PCM --- it is instead DD or DTS packets, for example. A receiver or surround prepro needs to look at the data payload and decide what kind of signal stream it is in order to play it back correctly. This is why most prepros and receivers have a slight silent period before its playback --- you may notice that some prepros will cut off the first second or two of sound of a soundtrack.

I say "old" above because S/PDIF has been subsumed into IEC958. AES/EBU was the pro version of S/PDIF with slight format differences, but mostly worked with S/PDIF. AES/EBU has also been subsumed into IEC958. Generally, it's more correct to say "IEC958" but no one knows what that is, so S/PDIF is used instead.

--Andre

Hello Fellow Members

I would like to know the following;

1. Dvd player eg pioneer dv79avi using its hdmi connector to transmit the picture only to the dvdo. The coax digital out of the dvd player to the dvdo.

Will this work? Or Using hdmi audio will be automatically tranmitted to the dvdo. Especially when ones prepro does not accept hdmi for the audio.

??
Ben

Hello Fellow Members

I would like to know the following;

1. Dvd player eg pioneer dv79avi using its hdmi connector to transmit the picture only to the dvdo. The coax digital out of the dvd player to the dvdo.

Will this work? Or Using hdmi audio will be automatically tranmitted to the dvdo. Especially when ones prepro does not accept hdmi for the audio.

??
Ben

Yes benthx, your Sydney connection here. Yes, connecting the player via coax to the VP30 and taking the audio out via the VP30's coax or Opto should work just fine - it does on the HD+, so I don't see why this way of connecting things shouldn't work on the VP30.

But, if you also transmit the sound thru the HDMI connector (and have no other audio connections to the VP30), and the signal is HDCP encoded, you will ONLY get sound out of the HDMI output connector on the VP30 as its stands at the moment. At the moment, most sources that have HDMI connectors, still also put the audio out on their digital connectors, but it's my bet, that as time goes by, ONLY the HDMI connector will have full audio sound coming from it. That's when we get into trouble!!

This is what all the debate is about. Most of us don't want to have to change/update our receiver/amps for one that has HDMI/HDCP inputs just so that we can grab hold of the audio that is embedded on the HDMI connector.

Phil.

Then it would also be nice to have two HDMI outputs. One to go to the the TV and one to got to the receiver.

Aaronwt, I agree with you. I see the need to purchase a NEW audio processor because of HDMI but I would only like to send the HDMI audio to Audio Processor and send the HDMI video to my display device.

I wonder if DVDO has looked into this. I am not sure what is involved with "splitting" the HDMI signal internally in the DVDO products, like the VP30 or successors. but this seems to be a reasonable solution, at least from "end-user" point of view.

I just got a SS 6768 that is hooked up to my DVDO HD. I have the VP30 on order. I want to have a ISF calibration done on my TV. Should I wait until I get the VP30 to have it done? Until we know when it is coming out, I can't even schedule one. Josh, can you give any hints as to when I could schedule my calibration?

Yes, you should wait until the unit is in place. Any electronics can affect calibration.

As for when, only Josh / DVDO can say, of course. I'm sure he'll chime in when he can.

LasT I heard it was October. Has that changed?

Boy I hope it comes out soon, looks like I'm just about to sell my HD. I'll be big pictureless until it comes out. Then again, I wouldn't mind if they delayed it and added another HDMI out or made sure that it had some way to be upgraded to the future VP40(?). Even though I hated that DVDO came out with the HD+ so soon after the HD, looks like I'm going to fall into the same situation.

I guess its Josh and Dale's presence that had me at hello. Or it could be the upgrade policy and AVS's super deal.

I went the upgrade route. I'm too reliant on the HD+ to take it out of my system.

LasT I heard it was October. Has that changed?

All I was saying is that the calibration should wait for the VP30. I don't know anything about the scheduled ship date other than what Josh has said here.

LasT I heard it was October. Has that changed?

No.

I have no idea how many people this includes, but I'm near the top of the list of the "first batch of AVS pre-orders" and I was told that those were going to start shipping "sometime in mid-October."

I haven't been given any new information since.


I hate to do this, but I've been keeping up with this thread and I'm a little confused. Would someone please break down for me, in as basic and simple of terms as possible, the problem about HDMI people are complaining about here?

I just want to make sure I fully grasp the situation being discussed, and I feel like I've missed something.

I hate to do this, but I've been keeping up with this thread and I'm a little confused. Would someone please break down for me, in as basic and simple of terms as possible, the problem about HDMI people are complaining about here?

I just want to make sure I fully grasp the situation being discussed, and I feel like I've missed something.

Copy Protection rules for HDMI include the provisions for CA (Conditional Access) which is set by the provider (these are similar to encryption flags) and can include 'copy never', 'copy once', and 'copy freely'

On the new generation of HD DVD's, there can be separate license issues for HD video and soundtracks, so copy protection addresses both

Let's assume the license on a Blu Ray DVD requires a 'copy never' provision for its soundtrack: the DVD and / or the provider (remember some copy protection on HD DVD's may involve internet access) will enable CA code of 'copy never' and this will shut off the HDMI audio stream

if the HDMI audio is shut off; you SHOULD be able to get the stream directly from the digital audio output of the HD DVD player but who knows: also, you SHOULD be able to get analog audio

This is my best understanding of the issue: this is new to many of us and is based on reading many reports since none of us have HD DVD players and only a little experience with CP issues of digital audio over HDMI

this has nothing to do with any shortcoming or defect of any particular video processor: it is part of the HDCP/HDMI license that they are required to comply with

Copy Protection rules for HDMI include the provisions for CA (Conditional Access) which is set by the provider (these are similar to encryption flags) and can include 'copy never', 'copy once', and 'copy freely'

On the new generation of HD DVD's, there can be separate license issues for HD video and soundtracks, so copy protection addresses both

Let's assume the license on a Blu Ray DVD requires a 'copy never' provision for its soundtrack: the DVD and / or the provider (remember some copy protection on HD DVD's may involve internet access) will enable CA code of 'copy never' and this will shut off the HDMI audio stream

if the HDMI audio is shut off; you SHOULD be able to get the stream directly from the digital audio output of the HD DVD player but who knows: also, you SHOULD be able to get analog audio

This is my best understanding of the issue: this is new to many of us and is based on reading many reports since none of us have HD DVD players and only a little experience with CP issues of digital audio over HDMI

this has nothing to do with any shortcoming or defect of any particular video processor: it is part of the HDCP/HDMI license that they are required to comply with

Wow, thanks! :)

Here's another post in the Vantage thread from the manufacturer about issues relating to HDMI. The audio portion is towards the end of the post.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6215426#post6215426
SCOOP! HQV: Vantage-HD processor is here! - AVS Forum

Here's another post in the Vantage thread from the manufacturer about issues relating to HDMI. The audio portion is towards the end of the post.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6215426#post6215426
SCOOP! HQV: Vantage-HD processor is here! - AVS Forum

from that link:

"ii) HDMI uses a poor quality connector with no positive locking mechanism and basic contacts which tend to make very bad contact with time, generating noise, data errors and loss of connection."

Very True

there is/was a design change effort to add a more robust locking device to the HDMI connector design but that may be going nowhere because most HDMI connectors are mounted on PC boards and not secured to the chassis; so a locking device may be problematic

I think a lot of reported HDMI problems (like on the HD Tivo) stem from the poor connector design, and the fact that thick, heavy HDMI cable assemblies add stress to the connection

overall a bad situation with the launch of the HDMI interface

more: to clarify, I have no issues with the concept of the HDMI connector: a single interface for high bandwidth audio/video and connectivity signals: but the physical interface is flawed and once again HDCP severly limits its usefulness :(

from that link:

"ii) HDMI uses a poor quality connector with no positive locking mechanism and basic contacts which tend to make very bad contact with time, generating noise, data errors and loss of connection."

Very True


Yup, and add a thick cable to that connector in an unsupported manner and you'll have trouble.

This part of that post is what is very interesting, about the audio,

"iii) Most seriously - HDMI rules mandate that the audio be passed through as HDMI too. But, they also mandate that the number of audio channels passed be dictated by the display device. Oops. Did someone screw up here? Perhaps - since connecting a plasma with 2 channel audio will, if the HDMI rules are adhered to, mandate that your new Blu-ray or HD-DVD player only outputs 2-channel audio. Yes, I know lots of you will say I am wrong, but go read the rules, I'm right, and I'm rightly worried about this."

Hey guys

I have been doing a little digging here and there and have found out the so called VP40 does not exist

I have also heard if a new unit comes out from DVDO it will not be until around the Q2 2006

Hi Again guys

I was wondering what DVD players do you guys know of that willout put 480i/576i via HDMI?

Hey guys

I have been doing a little digging here and there and have found out the so called VP40 does not exist

I have also heard if a new unit comes out from DVDO it will not be until around the Q2 2006

Being that the VP30 has even shipped yet I would surprised ( pleasantly
so ) if it shipped Q2 of next year...

Hi Again guys

I was wondering what DVD players do you guys know of that willout put 480i/576i via HDMI?

The Pioneer Elite 59AVi does and so will the 79AVi.

I believe a couple Bravo DVD players do and also at least one Sony model..

The Sony DVP-NS975V.

Being that the VP30 has even shipped yet I would surprised ( pleasantly
so ) if it shipped Q2 of next year...

Very unlikely. There was speculation and jumping to conclusions that took place about a "VP40" and Josh pretty much shot all of that down.

Go back to page 21, post 625 or so and read several of those posts for full context.

Very unlikely. There was speculation and jumping to conclusions that took place about a "VP40" and Josh pretty much shot all of that down.

Go back to page 21, post 625 or so and read several of those posts for full context.

Thanks. I am well aware of this. Hence the "surprise" in the statement:

"Being that the VP30 has even shipped yet I would surprised ( pleasantly
so ) if it shipped Q2 of next year..."

By the way, does anyone know when AVS will be getting their first shipment
of VP30's? I ordered within hours of the first day so I am really hoping
to get my hands on one of these soon :-)

I don't have a HD+ to hold me over either...

Thanks. I am well aware of this. Hence the "surprise" in the statement:

"Being that the VP30 has even shipped yet I would surprised ( pleasantly
so ) if it shipped Q2 of next year..."

Indeed. :)

I just kind of re-posted that for any "late comers" to the thread.



By the way, does anyone know when AVS will be getting their first shipment
of VP30's? I ordered within hours of the first day so I am really hoping
to get my hands on one of these soon :-)

It sounds like you're in that "first batch of AVS preorders" like I am. Last I knew, Jason told me that they expect it to happen "sometime in mid-October."

I haven't heard anything after that differently, one way or the other. :)

Josh@dvdo, the below was lifted from the Vantage-HD thread, it's from a FAQ at the Vantage site, I thought this was not possible with HDMI/HDCP encrypted audio when fed to the processor...or maybe I have mis-read something earlier in this thread..?


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6266025#post6266025
SCOOP! HQV: Vantage-HD processor is here! - AVS Forum



6. You originally told customers that if the audio input was via HDMI with HDCP then theSPDIF Coaxial and Optical audio outputs would not function. Is this true and why?

We originally believed this was necessary for compliance with the HDMI and HDCP
licensing rules but have now found another means to make VantageHD
comply with the copy protection requirements of HDCP and HDMI without having to disable the coaxial and optical digital audio outputs. This is clearly far more convenient for our customers. Unfortunately there is no such workaround for video signals though, we are not permitted to output RGBHV analog signals if the input is HDMI with HDCP or DVI with HDCP – see FAQ 5 above.

Trust me, we are trying to get a definitive answer about what kind of audio can be output from an optical/coaxial SPDIF output when the source is input via HDMI.

Based on FAQ 5:

Important: If you want to input HDCP encrypted signals you must connect an HDCP compatible display device to VantageHD, otherwise you will not get a picture!

I believe the audio output from the optical and coaxial outputs is more than likely 2-channel. Why do I say this? The processor must authenticate with the display to get a picture, and I am sure the same holds true for audio. I also believe that the information which is provide to your sources from the display (EDIDs) tells them to output 2-channel audio because no display (AFAIK) has multi-channel capability.

just to confirm one thing (it was mentioned before, but I dun think it's confirmed) : I can connect both a HDCP'ed HDMI AND a coax audio to the VP30, and despite the HDMI having HDCP, the VP30 is able to output multichannel audio from its coax out (by using the audio source from the coax in ) ? In other words, the HDCP in HDMI doesn't prevent VP30 from using a coax audio in at the same time. Is this correct ?

I can connect both a HDCP'ed HDMI AND a coax audio to the VP30, and despite the HDMI having HDCP, the VP30 is able to output multichannel audio from its coax out (by using the audio source from the coax in ) ?

This would not be a limitation of the the iScan VP30, this would be a limitation of the source and of course, legal restrictions. I haven't seen a source which shuts off its SPDIF output when HDMI is used for video but I can't predict the future.

In other words, the HDCP in HDMI doesn't prevent VP30 from using a coax audio in at the same time. Is this correct ?

Yes. If you really wanted to you could assign the analog audio input to an HDMI video input.

just to confirm one thing (it was mentioned before, but I dun think it's confirmed) : I can connect both a HDCP'ed HDMI AND a coax audio to the VP30, and despite the HDMI having HDCP, the VP30 is able to output multichannel audio from its coax out (by using the audio source from the coax in ) ? In other words, the HDCP in HDMI doesn't prevent VP30 from using a coax audio in at the same time. Is this correct ?

I think Josh should be the one giving the definitive answer on this one (and he just has - beat me to my post), but bear in mind that if this is the case, then a lot of us will quickly run out of audio inputs. In my case, I have already used up all 4 inputs on my HD+ (2 components, one S-Video and one Video - [the VP30 also has just 4 digital audio inputs]). I have no inputs left over to dedicate to HDMI input(s). I could of course simply bypass the VP30 for the additional inputs, but that completely nulifies the advantages the VP30 offers in lip-sync correction and audio switching.

I think Josh should be the one giving the definitive answer on this one

yes , of course; that was a question. And Josh answered, thanks.

Yes. If you really wanted to you could assign the analog audio input to an HDMI video input.

Josh I mean the digital SPDIF audio. well since it can even be assigned an analogue in then obviously it should be able to take digital in as well. All I wanted to know is, if we really cannot do anything on the HDMI, at least there is a way to work. In my situation it's not that bad as I do not have that many inputs. I mean, if HDMI guys just say no you can't do it, what can we do ?

This picture shows how the ABT logo will appear on production VP30s. If you have any comments, please PM or EM me.

I need a bit of a quick education on how the VP30 works on 1080i inputs.

My setup is that that I have a Free to Air Set Top Box set to output 1080i and going into the HD+ via the DVI input. The HD+ and now the VP30 scale this input.

Now, my output is set to 1280 x 768 into my LCD panel. This is a progressive output stream as I understand it.

How does the iScan scale/de-interlace? the 1080i input into the progressive 1280 x 768 selected ouput format? I ask this because there has been discussion (and the VP30 specs verify it) that only 480i/576i inputs get de-interlaced - interlaced inputs with higher resolutions are NOT de-interlaced.

So, if we are outputting a progressive data stream from a high res (1080i) interlaced input, how is this done? Are we in fact de-interlacing in some manner?

Phil.

Hi Josh,

It looks a bit retro to me. The original logo (or an even more circular one) I think would be more effective.

This is something very subjective so I'm sure this will vary among users.

So we can get silver faceplate as an option?

This picture shows how the ABT logo will appear on production VP30s. If you have any comments, please PM or EM me.

Does this mean the VP30s may start shipping next week?

It is very likely that there will be a replacement brushed aluminum faceplate for the VP30. Pricing and availability are still to be determined.

The iScan VP30, the black one, will not be out next week.

It is very likely that there will be a replacement brushed aluminum faceplate for the VP30. Pricing and availability are still to be determined.

The iScan VP30, the black one, will not be out next week.

So the silver one will be? I have no problem switching to the silver one :-)

It is very likely that there will be a replacement brushed aluminum faceplate for the VP30. Pricing and availability are still to be determined.

:rolleyes:

Just to clarify, the iScan VP30 (which is black in color) and the not officially announced (but highly likely) silver front panel (Pricing/Availibility TBD) will NOT be available next week.

Edited for clarity

Just to clarify, neither the iScan VP30 (which is black in color) or the not officially announced (but highly likely) silver front panel (Pricing/Availibility TBD) will be available next week.
Thanks for the response on the HDMI audio. The above quote about availability seems to be pretty clear as well.. :D

Regarding the "look" of the VP30, looks fine to me. One question though, will the unit still be capable of turning all front panel lights off during operation like the HD+?

That's it. Choose your processor based on the way it looks. I guess that would be about the only difference among most of the first generation Realta based processors any way.

Thanks for the response on the HDMI audio. The above quote about availability seems to be pretty clear as well.. :D


Sorry keenan, I am not sure if my message was clear. The iScan VP30 WILL NOT be available next week.

Good night...

Sorry keenan, I am not sure if my message was clear. The iScan VP30 WILL NOT be available next week.

Good night...
It all seems clear to me, maybe the laughing emoticon threw you, your messages are understood with clarity as far as I'm concerned. :)

That's it. Choose your processor based on the way it looks. I guess that would be about the only difference among most of the first generation Realta based processors any way.
Not sure if you are referring to my post about "look" but to be clearer, I really don't care how the unit looks physically, all I care about is the performance. An unlit front panel would be nice as far as physical attributes go.

I'm on the AVS buy list, fairly low number. I'm wondering, in the opinion of the assembled here, if I would be better inputting a DVD signal that is deinterlaced with DCDi (Denon 3910) or inputting 480i and letting the Silicon Optics deinterlacer of the VP30 do the job. My DVD collection is pretty much completely film based.

Thanks.

Dan

I'm on the AVS buy list, fairly low number. I'm wondering, in the opinion of the assembled here, if I would be better inputting a DVD signal that is deinterlaced with DCDi (Denon 3910) or inputting 480i and letting the Silicon Optics deinterlacer of the VP30 do the job. My DVD collection is pretty much completely film based.

Thanks.

Dan

I assume you mean Silicon Image not their competitor.

Where DVDO's recent scalers really shine is in deinterlacing and scaling film based 480i sources. For film based DVDs there is no question that I would feed a 480i (preferably digital) signal to the VP30. Video based sources are more debatable as the 504 is not edge adaptive like DCDi. The 504 therefore has a tendency to comb on video sources.

- Collin

Josh - logo is fine. old logo is fine. Send me one without a logo, if that makes it come sooner :) I have a relatively early order, low number, but I am not overly patient. Sorry.

Dan - I have asked similar questions, but really, I think you are going to trust your eyes. I know I am going to feed mine both 480p and 480i out of my Denon, and will decide for myself. Finally. I am more afraid that the VP30 won't accept the 480p output of my Denon 1600 - I have yet to connect it to anything that will. I get a nasty vertical bar, probably a copyprotection bug, since I can play backed up dvds fine. But I will be asking about that after I have tried it. Who knows - maybe it WILL work.

Sorry keenan, I am not sure if my message was clear. The iScan VP30 WILL NOT be available next week.

Good night...

Can't wait for the VP30 to come out next week... ;)

I am more afraid that the VP30 won't accept the 480p output of my Denon 1600 - I have yet to connect it to anything that will. I get a nasty vertical bar, probably a copyprotection bug, since I can play backed up dvds fine.

I've had a Denon 1600 connected to the HD+ by both 480p component and 480i SDI, and have had no problems in either case.

Can't wait for the VP30 to come out next week... ;)

Next week?

I thought they started shipping tomorrow!?







;)

Next week?

I thought they started shipping tomorrow!?







;)

Now here is where someone says, What's wrong with your order, I got my VP30 today, order number 5,989.

Thanks, Joshua. One less worry - my Denon won't display 480p thru my Sammy 165, nor will it work directly into my Phillips lcd. Denon even sent out a firmware upgrade, but it didn't help. If yours works with the HD+, I will assume mine will work with the VP30.

Back to waiting. :)

Thank you Collin, I did mean Silicon Image. Great answer, l really appreciate it!

Dan

Josh

can you tell me if, for the jvc display,you have change the hdmi output and put a dvi output instead of the hdmi,it's seem to me more logical to match the jvc display!
for sd material is there a big difference beetwin the hd sdi and the vp30 sdi
and third: have you preprogramme the specific timing for the HD2K in 50htz for the hub(vp30) ?

thank's

bob

Is it the middle of October yet? :)

Sorry for the simple question, but here goes.

Will the VP30 output HDMI and Analog component simultaneously if the input is HDMI? (Or Component, S-Video, composite for that matter.)

I understand there is a possibility of the component output being downcoverted to 480P if there is HDCP in the stream. I just would like to take the HDTivo and feed HDMI to the VP30, and then output HDMI to my projector and component to my 36" Sony HD CRT. The HDTivo is HDMI or Component, not both.

Thanks.

Follow this link to DVDO and I think your question will be answered.
http://www.dvdo.com/faq/faq_isvp30.php#faq_hd4

Stace