This is the definitive spec sheet on the DVDO iScan VP30:

The iScan™ VP30 is a high-definition video processor and A/V hub that converts standard or high definition from your DVD player, VCR, PVR, HD set top box, game console, or PC to any output resolution between VGA and 1080p, including popular HDTV resolutions such as 720p and 1080i.

•VRS Precision Video Scaling II™ technology by ABT - 10-bit Scaling with Enhanced Sharpness Control

• Motion and source adaptive video deinterlacing for NTSC (3:2 and 2:2 pulldown; video) and PAL/SECAM (2:2 pulldown; video) sources (SiI504)

Upgradeable to the VRS Precision Deinterlacing Card (ABT102)

•SD(480i/576i) Source, Motion and Edge Adaptive Deinterlacer
o Five-field motion adaptive deinterlacingo Edge adaptive processing to produce smooth diagonal edgeso Three frame video processing delay (Max)o Game Modes with very low latency (sub-1 frame delay/2 frame delay with Edge adaptive processing)
• Arbitrary cadence detection (any:any) to detect non-standard cadences in input signals.
o Reliable 2:2 pull-down detection for 50Hz countrieso Detection of 2:2 to/from 3:2 crossfades and out of phase 3:2 crossfadeso Detection of multiple source types within a frame for example video titles over film o Bad edit detection and compensation to minimize artifacts caused by sequence breaks in film content


•ABT’s Precision A/V Lipsync™ - Intelligent digital audio delay technology to match Audio and Video timing
•ABT’s Rightrate™ – High-Performance Framerate Conversion
•ABT’s AutoVFR™ – Intelligent Component Video Inputs with Automatic Video Format Routing
•ABT’s AutoCUE-C™ – Automatic Chroma Upsampling Error detection and correction
• User defined output resolution from VGA (640x480) to 1080p (1920x1080)
• Analog HD Transcoding and Processing
•Gamma Correction – 0.5-2.5

Input Aspect Ratio Controls
•Presets: 4:3 full frame, 4:3 letterbox, Panorama, 16:9 full frame or user-defined aspect ratio (10)
•Flexible Horizontal and Vertical Zooming & Panning controls
•Overscan Adjustment per input

Output Aspect Ratio Controls
•Presets: 4:3, 16:9, 2.35:1 or custom output aspect ratio
•Separate Display/Screen Adjustments
•Underscan Adjustment to eliminate Overscan inherent in a display

10 User-Defined 'Display Profiles' – For multiple display, framerate, and image shift configurations (10)

•10-bit 300MHz Instrumentation Quality DACs (2x Oversampling for 1080p)
•Full-frame Timebase Correction
•High performance, multi-standard video decoder (10-bit: 480i/576i; 12-bit: 480p/576p/720p/1080i)
•High-quality super-adaptive comb filter with 2D Y/C separation
•Flexible Digital and Analog Audio switching and routing – 4 HDMI audio/video inputs, 5 assignable audio inputs (4 digital, 1 analog) with 1 HDMI audio/video output and 2 active digital audio outputs.
•Software Upgradeable

• Predefined output resolutions for Plasma, DLP, LCD, LCOS, and CRT-based displays:
480p (720x480)
576p (720x576)
720p (1280x720)
1080i (1920x1080)
1080p (1920x1080)
VGA (640x480)
SVGA (800x600)
XGA (1024x768)
SXGA (1280x1024)
848x600
852x480
1024x576
1024x1024 (ALIS)
1280x768
1280x960
1365x1024
1366x768
1400x788
1400x1050
1440x960
1440x1152
• User customizeable output resolution from 480p (720x480) to 1080p (1920x1080)

Technical Specifications

Inputs
Twelve Video Inputs Available
• Two Composite (NTSC/PAL/SECAM)
• Two S-Video (NTSC/PAL/SECAM)
• Two Component (YPbPr or RGB/S) processes 480i/p, 576i/p, 720p, 1080i
• One RGBHV/Component (BNC-style connectors) processes 480p, 576p, 720p, 1080i, VGA/SVGA/XGA/SXGA@60Hz
• Four HDMI processes 480i/p, 576 i/p, 720p, 1080i, VGA/SVGA/XGA/SXGA@60Hz
• One Optional SD-SDI (Serial Digital Interface) processes 480i/576i
Nine Audio Inputs
• Four HDMI
• Two Coaxial Digital
• Two Optical Digital
• One Analog Pair (L/R)

Outputs
One Analog Video Output
• Using High Quality BNC-style connectors
• Configurable for YPbPr, RGBHV, RGB/S, or RGB
One Digital Audio/Video Output
• Using HDMI (High Definition Multimedia Interface) connector
• Configurable for YCbCr or RGB
• Also carries audio
Two Digital Audio Outputs
• One Coaxial Digital
• One Optical Digital

Controls
Front Panel
• Infrared remote control with direct access codes or manual controls on front panel
• Functions accessible via either On Screen Display (OSD) or 2 line, 20 character front-panel LED display
• RS232 port for software downloads and automation.
• Fully programmable controls for each separate video input with non-volatile memories:
- Automatic input source detection & input priority selection
- Picture controls with memory for each input: Brightness, Contrast, Saturation, Hue, Y/C Delay, Sharpness
• Output Controls: Analog/Digital, Format/Resolution, Aspect Ratio, Sync Type, Colorspace (RGB or YPbPr),
Frame Lock, Display Profiles (10)
• 35 Built-in test patterns for ease of set up

Miscellaneous
Power
• Universal AC mains input: 100 – 240 VAC @ 50-60 Hz
• Consumption <30W
• Sleep Mode – automatic 30 second timeout indicated by power indicator color change

Physical Dimensions
• 10.4”x17”x2.2” (26.3cmx43.4cmx5.5cm) with feet
• 10.4”x17”x1.8” (26.3cmx43.4cmx4.6cm) without feet

Available Accessories
• ABT102 Precision Deinterlacing daughter card
• SD-SDI Input Module
• Silver Front Bezel
• Rack Mount Kit (1RU)

VP30 Owner's Manual
Available here: http://www.dvdo.com/documents/DVDO_iScanVP30_PG_ABT_75-0239-01.pdf

VP30 Quick Start Guide
Available here: http://www.dvdo.com/documents/DVDO_iScanVP30_QuickStartGuide.pdf

Discrete IR Generator - Created by Barry Gordon
Available here: http://www.dvdo.com/faq/faq_setup.php

FAQs:
Q: What are these new 'Game Modes' that come with the Precision Deinterlacing Card?
A: These modes can reduce the amount of video delay to less than a single frame. In many competitive processors the effects of applying complex algorithms to the video image results in upwards of a seven frame delay. This can inhibit the real-time performance for gamers who want instantaneous response to react to stimuli and to realize peak performance from their application. The VRS Precision Deinterlacing Card (when set to one of the Game Modes) will reduce frame delay down to slightly less than one frame of video.


Q: What comes on the DVD that ships with the Precision Deinterlacing Card?
A: The DVD that comes with the Precision Deinterlacing Card includes many test patterns to assist the you in optimizing the setup of your iScan VP30 and to evaluate the performance of your iScan VP30 (or any other video processing). This DVD was produced by Stacey Spears and Don Munsil (S&M) and I strongly believe that this will be the Reference DVD that everyone uses to compare video processing from now on.

The Static Patterns include:
Picture Controls (Brightness/Contrast, Color/Tint, Y/C Delay, and Resolution)
Geometry (Frame Geometry, Image Cropping, Cross Hatch - Coarse, Cross Hatch - Fine, and Focus)
Gray Scale (10IRE - 100IRE Windows and Gray Ramp)
Half Patterns (Black/White, Color 7 Bars 75, Color (7) Bars 100, Color (8) Bars 75 and Color (8) Bars 100 - These are the 'other half' of the test patterns which are built into the iScan VP30)

The Motion Patterns include:
Chroma Upsampling (ICP, 2-2, and 2-3)
Source Adaptive (Film, Film Detail, and Synthetic Wedge - Each test patterns has 2-2, 2-2-2-4, 2-3-2-3, 2-3-3-2-2, 2-3-3-2, 3-2-3-2-2, 3-3, 4-4, 5-5, 6-4, 8-7-8-7 cadences as well as a sped up cadence and bad-edits)
Edge Adaptive (Jaggies at 45/20/10 degress, Jaggies at all degrees, Video sequences which have very difficult diagonals: 'Ropes', "Ship' , 'Hockey', and Bridge')
Mixed Mode (Horizontal Text and Vertical Text)
Montage

There is also a Demo Loop which goes through all of the deinterlacing evaluation content.

The Source Adaptive 'Film' and 'Film Detail' content should be familiar to everyone, they are the infamous Cafe scene (ever wonder what happens after the bum gets the newspaper?) and Super Speedway, respectively.

Q: Can I purchase an iScan VP30 with the SDI input module and/or the ABT102 Precision Deinterlacing Card preinstalled.
A: At this point these two cards are purely user/dealer-installabe upgrades. Both are very easy to do and the installation of either will not void your warranty.

Q: Does the iScan VP30 use the same SDI input module as the iScan HD and HD+?
A: Yes, the iScan VP30 uses exactly the same input module and the VP30 will ship with two standoffs to facilitate the swap from your existing HD or HD+ to your VP30.

Q: Can the iScan VP30 take an HDMI input signal and output that same signal over the analog outputs?
A: If the input signal has HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection) legally we must turn off the analog outputs. If the input signal does not have HDCP, then the iScan VP30 CAN output this signal as an analog signal (either RGB or component) at any resolution between VGA and 1080p.

Q: What features does the VP30 have, which the iScan HD/HD+ does not have?
A: •Upgradeable to ABT102 Precision Deinterlacing Card
•4 HDMI Inputs and 1 HDMI Output (Audio/Video)
HD and HD+ have 1 DVI input and 1 DVI output
•Precision Video Scaling II – 10-bit scaling
HD and HD+ use Precision Video Scaling (I) which is 9-bit
•12-bit Video Decoder (480p/576p/720p/1080i)
HD and HD+ use 10-bit Video Decoder (VP30 does for 480i and 576i)
•BNC input and output capable of RGBHV or Component
HD and HD+ have HD15 connectors capable of RGBHV or Component
•RGBHV Input is processed and transcoded
HD and HD+ pass through on HD15 input
•Component HD is processed and transcoded
HD and HD+ pass through 720p and 1080i on Component inputs
•Elegant front panel design
•Analog Audio Input

Q: If I connect an HDMI (audio/video) source to the iScan VP30 will I be able to get audio out via the optical/coaxial digital outputs?
A: In most cases the audio that is available on the HDMI connection will be available on the optical/coaxial audio outputs. Exceptions include MLP (DVD-Audio) and DSD (SACD) which SPDIF connections are incapable of carrying due to bandwidth limitations.


I'll keep the original thread starter for prosperity:

Since nobody else went for the obvious thread name, this will be the iScan VP30 Thread.

First off, we will have a press release on the DVDO iScan VP30 on August 15th (next Monday). We will have pricing/trade-up discounts and complete product info available on our website at that time.

I will not discuss any specs until Monday, but here is a better picture of the front panel of the iScan VP30:

Well, I will say two things:

1) The Front Panel Display is actually a 2 line, 20 character display

2) This is pre-production unit in the picture, there will be no imperfections in the machining on the production units.

Great stuff Josh & co, cant wait to see the final specs & pricing. Well Monday is not that far away.

If only the pic had showed the more interesting rear end ;)

Looks very cool. Don't delay the press release :)

Josh,

Are there preliminary specs you can let us know prior to Aug. 15th?

what is "powered by ABT" or does that have to wait until Monday. What is ABT? Just curious, but I can wait.

ABT= Anchor Bay Technologies

I take it this is the new DVDO that is to compete with the Dragonfly. As I am about to finalize my new setup and start buying stuff, I am KEENLY interested. I need a box that will handle two DVI inputs, at least one component input, outputs 1400 x 1050 @ 60hz on DVI or HDMI, and has competent deinterlacing of SD video and film sources.

That's my wish list. :)

Most compelling.

Looking forward to August 15!

Is this a DVDO HD+ with HDMI? Or is there more too it? Does it have HQV/Realta? Motion adaptive processing? So many damn questions and no answers 'til Monday. C'mon throw us a bone.

I will not discuss any specs until Monday, but here is a better picture of the front panel of the iScan VP30:

Your answer, Kraig. ;)

But even I know it's more than "just an Iscan HD+ with HDMI." (Although not much more.)

Isn't there another thread around here talking about WSR's 100th issue having some ad for the supposed hardware this thing will have? Either Gennum or Faroudja, etc.?

Josh,

Can you tell us anything about when we should expect to be able to buy the product? I'm not sure if you are saying that it will be available this month or not, but I'm hoping that an announcement this much before CEDIA means availability soon.

--Darin

Does it have HQV/Realta? Motion adaptive processing?

Rumor is it will not use the Realta chip and it will compete with the other next gen scalers. One can deduce it will have 1080i processing.

Rumor is it will not use the Realta chip and it will compete with the other next gen scalers. One can deduce it will have 1080i processing.

Aside: Your avatar and caption literally made me LMAO. Kind of scary, but mostly downright hilarious! </aside>

Your answer, Kraig. ;)

But even I know it's more than "just an Iscan HD+ with HDMI." (Although not much more.)

Isn't there another thread around here talking about WSR's 100th issue having some ad for the supposed hardware this thing will have? Either Gennum or Faroudja, etc.?


I've not seen anything definitive as to what this new VP30 has/does. The only thing I can recall is them saying the algorithms are ABT:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5735528&highlight=abt#post5735528

4 HDMI with audio is all we know so far, good start anyways..

Josh

can we put inside the sdi card of my iscan hd ?

is there a dvi output for connecting with my hd2k because the hdmi connection is not as strong connection as a dvi !

if your product is ready before the dragonfly i will stop my order ;)

can we put inside the sdi card of my iscan hd ?


I remember reading that this will be possible.

Josh,

Can you comment in vague general terms (yes/no) if there will be an upgrade program for existing HD/HD+ users as you've done in the past?

-John

Josh,

Can you comment in vague general terms (yes/no) if there will be an upgrade program for existing HD/HD+ users as you've done in the past?

-John
He says as much in the first post,

We will have pricing/trade-up discounts and complete product info available on our website at that time.

keenan,

Hmmmm....clearly someone switched my regular leaded coffee with decaf.

Monday will actually be good timing for me -- I was going to send off my HD to JVB for an HD+ upgrade next Tuesday, but perhaps now I won't. It's going to be a long weekend of waiting.

Thanks!

-John

Yes, it is.. :D

I can't wait to see how the new deinterlacing/scaling and noise reduction compete with HQV and GENNUM! (but I guess i have to) :)

And I just paid to have my HD upgraded to an HD+. Well at least now I'll be able to get the credit for an HD+ when I upgrade to the VP30.

Finally - a bit of excitement (and actual new news) in this group - it had gotten to the point where there was very little happening. Summer doldrums, I guess. Maybe this will put the DVI adapter discussions off the table for a while ;)

The iScan VP30 is up on our website now: http://www.dvdo.com/

Jackpot! Monday comes early. Looked at the picture and the VP-30 has analog BNC outs for RGBHV and BNC's for RGBHV passthrough. It can transcode component from 480P to 1080i. And the price! The trade in program! We FP CRT users thank you.

Since the VP30 will use the audio capability of the HDMI standard, is there anyway to take a digital out and a DVI connection from a HD Receiver and combine it into a HDMI connector. It seems that it would be easy to create a cable with two tails (DVI and digital audio) and one head (HDMI). A quick google search did not find anything yet.

The iScan VP30 is up on our website now: http://www.dvdo.com/

Couldn't wait 'til Monday eh? :p


Good show! :cool:

Dumb question: Will this new Iscan still be like the others where: Analog input devices mandate the use of analog output?

In other words, I can't plug devices into both analog and digital video inputs and have it ALL come out via just the HDMI output?

(HDCP and all, I suspect the answer is yes, but I just want to make sure.)

Looks fantastic, especially at that price point!

Wow!! Great trade-in program, it's a done deal in my household.

Doug,

HDMI carries audio and video on the same three channels. So your idea of combining two cablws won't work.

This brings up an interesting question. If the scaler takes the audio/video output of say a DVD player and strips the video part of it for display through the HDMI output, how will the audio be connected to a receiver or processor?

Horst

Dumb question: Will this new Iscan still be like the others where: Analog input devices mandate the use of analog output?

In other words, I can't plug devices into both analog and digital video inputs and have it ALL come out via just the HDMI output?


The limitation of the iScan HD and HD+ is that if you connect an HD analog signal then that signal will not be processed, only passed through. With the VP30, yes you can connect all of your sources SD and HD to the VP30 and run an HDMI only to your display (Of course connecting up HDMI sources and going out analog is not allowed because of HDCP).

Josh

can we put inside the sdi card of my iscan hd ?

is there a dvi output for connecting with my hd2k because the hdmi connection is not as strong connection as a dvi !


Yes the SDI-601 (the SDI input module for HD/HD+) will also work in the iScan VP30.

What do you mean by "not as strong a connection as DVI"? If you are referring to the physical connection not having thumb screws like DVI, the HDMI connector that we use has a very positive connection.

Does it have HQV/Realta?

Just to clarify something once and for all.

ABT the manufacturer of DVDO products is also a technology company. Asking whether or not we will use this chip from competitor S or that chip from competitor G is the equivalent of asking Ford whether or not they'll be using the new Dodge or Chevy motor in their new flagship.

Can you comment in vague general terms (yes/no) if there will be an upgrade program for existing HD/HD+ users as you've done in the past?



How about specifics?

Here are the trade up values towards an iScan VP30:

HD+ = $1000
HD = $750
Ultra = $500
Pro = $400
Plus/V2 = $300

The limitation of the iScan HD and HD+ is that if you connect an HD analog signal then that signal will not be processed, only passed through. With the VP30, yes you can connect all of your sources SD and HD to the VP30 and run an HDMI only to your display


Holy smokes! I'm getting dizzy here, folks! :eek: :D


(Of course connecting up HDMI sources and going out analog is not allowed because of HDCP).

Makes sense.

This brings up an interesting question. If the scaler takes the audio/video output of say a DVD player and strips the video part of it for display through the HDMI output, how will the audio be connected to a receiver or processor?


How about optical or coax digital.

How about optical or coax digital.

You're enjoying this...aren't you? ;) :D

This is really helping my post count!

Horst,

The digital audio out on the VP30.

DR

I'm still curious as to how this unit will compare to the DF. In other words....would there be much difference between a Mosquito > VP30 vs a Mosquito > DF setup. The price is sure better. Any thoughts?
Javry

I think it is cruel and unusual punishment to show us a little bit and then run off. Josh clearly has sadistic tendencies. :D

The $64 question Josh: Is this VP going to have state of the art deinterlacing for BOTH film and video and BOTH SD and HD sources?

I'm assuming that like it's predecessors, it can output 1400x1050 @ 60HZ over HDMI/DVI-I to the projector.

If the answer to the question is yes, and the assumption is correct---SOLD!

Dan

I briefly browsed through the VP30 info on DVDO web. It only mentions deinterlace for NTSC/PAL. For HD source it only said the signal will be processed without any detail. The current HD+ already process HDTV source over DVI.

I think we need more info about HD processing. I hope by Monday we will know more. Otherwise it doesn't look good...

regards,

Li On

Josh,

Can a HDMI input have its audio assigned to a separate coax or optical input? I.e. if I have a cable box with DVI out, can I use an adapter to route just video to the iScan VP30 (which is all there would be via DVI --> HDMI), then pick up the audio on another input?

Good news that the SDI module from the HD/HD+ is compatible! That makes the upgrade a very easy sell for me!

-John

John - absolutely, if you really wanted to you can assign the analog audio input to any of the HDMI video inputs.

Li On, I understood the current HD+ only PASSES THRU HD source from component input. This one will apparently take ALL sources and scale them to the desired output resolution and outputs all over a single HDMI cable. Josh, is that correct?

It does appear that the new processor does not provide deinterlacing for 720i sources. So if your OTA HDTV tuner has poor deinterlacing, this unit won't help you with that. Ditto for an HD "digital" cable box.

I'm intrigued with the idea of combining this unit with a Mosquito. That might provide the high-end deinterlacing and noise reduction desired for either 480i or 720i, combined with the very nice video/audio switching and up-rezzing of this unit.

Dan

Hi Josh!
How does the trade-in work for HD+ with SDI & HD+ without SDI? Is there any credit for trading in a unit with SDI input? Price is certainly tempting. Is it possible to get trade-in credit as well as early bird discount? I am assuming the unit has full bore HD deinterlacing/processing.
Thanks.

Josh,

You claimed above:

"(Of course connecting up HDMI sources and going out analog is not allowed because of HDCP)."

I was under the impression that the FCC had voted to prohibit the use of selectable outputs control and by doing so - left the "Analog hole" open.

"The Commission voted to prohibit the use of "selectable output control" technology on all digital cable and direct-broadcast satellite systems, leaving open the "analog hole" dreaded by the studios."

http://www.cedmagazine.com/cedailydirect/0903/cedaily030911.htm

If this is still the case - then it should be "legal" to accept a digital input, process it and output it over an analog port (such as RGBHV) without restricting the resolution in any way.

Is ABT just being conservative with their approach or are our beloved analog CRT's in jeopardy here. Please comment on the actual legal requirement as well as ABT's position on this.

Sincere thanks.

Ed

I'm also wondering about the trade in with SDI. My unit has the SDI module. When I trade it in will that module be put in the VP30 or do I have to try and remove the SDI module myself to reinstall in the VP30?

wow HD+ has 1k ! This is what I call a "real" tradein value ! U do treat ur old customers well. Thank you !

Just one question (I can't find it from the web site): is the vertical shifting feature currently added in HD+ firmware upgrade also available in the VP30 ? (I'm assuming the VP30 can do all the things HD+ can do.)

I'm also wondering about the trade in with SDI. My unit has the SDI module. When I trade it in will that module be put in the VP30 or do I have to try and remove the SDI module myself to reinstall in the VP30?
It's the same module, just remove it from the HD+ and put it into the VP30. It's a very simple procedure.

Josh,

Aside from the HDCP issue could the digital transcoding from DVI/HDMI to analog be done to nonHDCP encrypted DVI sources?

Andy

Josh,

You claimed above:

"(Of course connecting up HDMI sources and going out analog is not allowed because of HDCP)."

I was under the impression that the FCC had voted to prohibit the use of selectable outputs control and by doing so - left the "Analog hole" open.

"The Commission voted to prohibit the use of "selectable output control" technology on all digital cable and direct-broadcast satellite systems, leaving open the "analog hole" dreaded by the studios."

http://www.cedmagazine.com/cedailydirect/0903/cedaily030911.htm

If this is still the case - then it should be "legal" to accept a digital input, process it and output it over an analog port (such as RGBHV) without restricting the resolution in any way.

Is ABT just being conservative with their approach or are our beloved analog CRT's in jeopardy here. Please comment on the actual legal requirement as well as ABT's position on this.

Sincere thanks.

Ed

As far as I know, the FCC ruling would only apply to broadcast receive and transmit equipment. I believe HDMI.org is the one that sets the licensing requirements for the use of their chip, and one of them is HDCP copy protection must be present.

This one will apparently take ALL sources and scale them to the desired output resolution and outputs all over a single HDMI cable. Josh, is that correct?
I think you can't properly scale without deinterlacing before (or am I wrong?).

I'm intrigued with the idea of combining this unit with a Mosquito. That might provide the high-end deinterlacing and noise reduction desired for either 480i or 720i, combined with the very nice video/audio switching and up-rezzing of this unit.
The Mosquito only does noise reduction and sharpen and such stuff. It can *not* deinterlace.

I'd really like to hear from Josh about HD deinterlacing capabilities of the VP30. Does it do proper motion adaptive deinterlacing for 1080i?

Well, one week ago, I am complaining about the lack of processors that do this....

"* 4 digital inputs. At least 3 are pure HDMI. The fourth can be DVI or HDMI.
* 2-3 component inputs. If people have that many, this box has to be the "one box that switches them all". These should probably be VGA compatible and therefore offer 5 inputs.
* 2-4 composite / s-video inputs
* Every single input has sound. So every single input needs its own Toslink or digital coax to correspond with it. The HDMI must pass audio, but since some sources are DVI, this means they also need a corresponding audio. To make things simpler on conncetors, it's fine if you have "mapped" audio and offer 8-12 total connectors, maybe 9 optical, 3 coax. I don't care a whit about coax, but I know some people do."

The new iScan comes pretty close. You may still not get away with all your audio switching through this box if you have DVI sources, but 5 non-HDMI audio inputs is, well, a lot!

And the restoration of the single-cable-to-the-display is at hand!

Just to clarify something once and for all.

ABT the manufacturer of DVDO products is also a technology company. Asking whether or not we will use this chip from competitor S or that chip from competitor G is the equivalent of asking Ford whether or not they'll be using the new Dodge or Chevy motor in their new flagship.
That gave me a good laugh. Thanks Josh. :D


I really like the any-resolution-in, any-resolution-out approach. I wish the whole industry would adopt it.

The 1999.99 dollar question is how good is the video deinterlacing and comb filtering...

Will this accept 480i over HDMI?

1080P24SF for us Qualia owners?

Josh.

Can us poor canadians enjoy the nice trade-in program also? Do we deal with DVDO directly on your site, or with our dealers... As usual, everyone in Canada doesn't know what to do... :rolleyes:

Correct Madshi, me confused! :)

OK Josh and anyone else who can comment, just a couple of questions related to my proposed new setup. It would be as follows:

Three sources: HD Cable 480i or 720P/HDTV OTA 480i or 720P/Denon 3910 480i or 480P.

Setup: Sources fed to Mosquito, then to VP30, then to NON HDCP display, the Canon Realis SX50, a 4:3 LCOS of native resolution 1400 x 1050 @60hz. Signal from VP 30 would be carried by an HDMI/DVI cable.

All three sourceswould be routed through the Mosquito for noise reduction and the other stuff the Mosquito does. Output from Mosquito would be via a single set of component cables into the VP30.

Here are the questions:

1. Am I likely to be better off using the deinterlacing in the new VP 30 as opposed to that in the cable box and OTA tuner? If so, these would come to the VP30 as 480i.

2. Ditto on the Denon 3910. I have to use either 480i or 480P out on it to get around the HDCP hassle (the Canon SX50 display is non HDCP). For now, I'd rather avoid the Digital Connections HDCP "fix". Am I better off to let the Denon deinterlace instead of the DVDO?

3. Will the DVDO be able to "see" which signal it is getting over the single input component cable set and apply the proper processing without switching? In ALL cases I need the DVDO output over the HDMI/DVI link to the projector.

Thanks.

Dan

Dan, the Mosquito needs to get unscaled data, otherwise some of the algorythms won't work.

I'd like to double check something I'm seeing on the DVDO's site.

I'm pleased to see the DVDO already incorporated in all facets of the site, especially the "compare all DVDO products comparision table" list page.

One thing that got my attention was that, apparently, the same SIL-504 chip is making a return appearance on this new Iscan for video deinterlacing. I could have sworn that I read somewhere that this new Iscan was either going to use Gennum and/or Faroudja or some other "newer" deinterlacer.


Deinterlacing (Pure Progressive SiI504) &Scaling (Precision Video Scaling II by ABT)

The bolded item is the upgrade/improvement/difference that I see vs. the older Iscan devices on the same page.



The other upgrade that I see that I like, of course is this:

Scaling Architecture 10 Bit, non-linear, sharpness control vs. 8 bit on the previous units.

I just want to make 100 percent sure on this. We're still on SIL-504 for deinterlacing with this new Iscan?

It's also interesting in that it looks like I can upgrade my iScan HD to an iScan HD+ for $199, then get $250 more trade-in allowance for it. ($1000 vs $750)

Unheard of!!!

And I was JUST getting used to the idea I have a reasonably contemporary video processor!!! :rolleyes:

It's also interesting in that it looks like I can upgrade my iScan HD to an iScan HD+ for $199, then get $250 trade-in allowance for it.

Unheard of!!!

And I was JUST getting used to the idea I have a reasonably contemporary video processor!!! :rolleyes:

I remember your other post earlier stating that universal maxim of consumer electronics: "There's always something bigger and better around the corner." ;)

And keep in mind another maxim as well:

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Since the Sil504 is still considered state-of-the-art in terms of film deinterlacing (especially with badly authored material), then there's not a lot of improvement to be had. There may be a few areas where it is bested by others (video), but we're all probably more concerned about film-based DVD upscaling anyway, considering the typical poor quality of video sources (cable, TiVo, etc.)

Besides, by this point I'd hope the code driving it would be completely debugged and tested, which is always a good thing when rolling out a new product. Fewer variables to consider for QC.

The (hopefully) improved scaling and HDMI inputs are enough for me to want to upgrade. The ability to process analog HD is an unexpected bonus.

Of course, I'd love integrated high-end noise reduction like other vendors offer, but I'd also really not like to see the price mushroom to 2.5x its current MSRP!! And on good quality material, I think we're probably talking about single-digit %s of improvement.

In any event, I can't wait!

-John

And keep in mind another maxim as well:

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Since the Sil504 is still considered state-of-the-art in terms of film deinterlacing (especially with badly authored material), then there's not a lot of improvement to be had. There may be a few areas where it is bested by others (video), but we're all probably more concernted about film-based DVD upscaling anyway, considering the typical poor quality of video sources (cable, TiVo, etc.)

I know at least one forumer (I won't name him) that never hesistates to trash the SIL-504 any chance he gets in the video processor forum here

I can't wait for him to see your comments. ;)

Maybe he'll actually tell us this time what his idea of superior deinterlacers are and suggest clearly superior and viable alternatives. Under 5 grand preferably. ;)




Besides, by this point I'd hope the code driving it would be completely debugged and tested, which is always a good thing when rolling out a new product. Fewer variables to consider for QC.

The (hopefully) improved scaling and HDMI inputs are enough for me to want to upgrade. The ability to process analog HD is an unexpected bonus.

I can't wait!

-John

Oh sure! I'm not knocking the product whatsoever! Just making an observation to field comments on way or the other.

Madshi, the Mosquito specifies either i or p input. But if you're right, I can give it either.

I think I know who you're talking about Q and if I understand correctly, he doesn't think there is a decent video deinterlacer out there right now.

Dan

It will be a killer scaler if we know for sure if it does proper motion adaptive deinterlacing/scaling of HD material. I don't care if it does not have Realta or Faroudja or Gennum as long as is does atleast a comparable & a great job of scaling & deinterlacing of all resolutions.

It will be a killer scaler if we know for sure if it does proper motion adaptive deinterlacing/scaling of HD material. I don't care if it does not have Realta or Faroudja or Gennum as long as is does atleast a comparable & a great job of scaling & deinterlacing of all resolutions.

Is it possible that some folks with connection around here get a chance to play with the new toy and maybe write us up some kind of a "preview/review" before this thing ships? (Before the pre-order deadline expires.)

I'm thinking of maybe Alan Gouger or someone like that getting a shot with the new toy? ;)

Q,

Or how about the Secrets folks?

-John

PS: Note my updated message above btw.

Josh,

You claimed above:

"(Of course connecting up HDMI sources and going out analog is not allowed because of HDCP)."

I was under the impression that the FCC had voted to prohibit the use of selectable outputs control and by doing so - left the "Analog hole" open.

"The Commission voted to prohibit the use of "selectable output control" technology on all digital cable and direct-broadcast satellite systems, leaving open the "analog hole" dreaded by the studios."

http://www.cedmagazine.com/cedailydirect/0903/cedaily030911.htm

If this is still the case - then it should be "legal" to accept a digital input, process it and output it over an analog port (such as RGBHV) without restricting the resolution in any way.

Is ABT just being conservative with their approach or are our beloved analog CRT's in jeopardy here. Please comment on the actual legal requirement as well as ABT's position on this.

Sincere thanks.

Ed

If this were the case, you wouldn't have to worry about having an HDCP compliant display. You could hook up all your digital sources to the VP30 and then go analog from the Iscan to the display....is that even possible?
Javry

Q,

Or how about the Secrets folks?

-John

PS: Note my updated message above btw.

Sure, anyone! Just so long as we get something out there before the pre-order deadline expires. ;)

I saw your updated post. I agree with you. :)

@Dan: My fault. I thought you were speaking about feeding a scaled signal to the Mosquito. But now I see you were only talking about a deinterlaced signal. That's fine, of course. I've even heard that the Mosquito works slightly better on progressive signals.

If this were the case, you wouldn't have to worry about having an HDCP compliant display. You could hook up all your digital sources to the VP30 and then go analog from the Iscan to the display....is that even possible?
Javry

I think this is a huge question. Even without HDCP encryption, could the VP30 transcode dvi to analog (apparently someone on the forums has stated that the Lumagens do this even with HDCP). Then again, with special boxes and cables, legacy display owners could run everything into the VP30 digitally then convert from the DVI out to analog, but it defeats the purpose of the nice BNC connectors and is awfully inelegant (word?).


Q,

I'm probably mistaken but I thought the Sil504 was not capable of handling 1080i deinterlacing. It would be a shame if the new processor really only offered more HDMI in's and analog transcoding. Motion adapative deinterlacing almost has to be a must for a new processor, no?

Reagardless, with the great trade in offer coupled with the 10% off pre-order this would be hard to pass up. I just hope in 6 months we don't see a VP30+.

Andy

Reading the VP30 description it looks as if it is a NTSC de-interlacer and can accept and scale HTDV signals. There does not appear to be 1080i de-interlacing.

-- Rich

Looks great, but I agree that if it doesn't do 1080i deinterlacing that is a disappointment.

Without 1080i de-interlacing the VP30 is not an option as most of the sources soon will be 1080i (HD-DVD). :(

Without 1080i de-interlacing the VP30 is not an option as most of the sources soon will be 1080i (HD-DVD). :(

The final specs have not been released yet, but at this point it is believed that both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will be stored on disc at 1080p and then output at your choice of 720p, 1080i, or 1080p resolution.

So my question is will the VP30 scale a 1080p input signal?

It will be a killer scaler if we know for sure if it does proper motion adaptive deinterlacing/scaling of HD material. I don't care if it does not have Realta or Faroudja or Gennum as long as is does atleast a comparable & a great job of scaling & deinterlacing of all resolutions.

This is what I'm keenly interested in also. The HD+ does a decent job of deinterlacing film based SD sources but the problem for me anyway has always been the limited HD processing available. The HD+ doesn't even upconvert component to 1080p (only DVI) so I can't even hookup say an X-Box (@1080i) to my HD+. If the VP30 will do up and downconversion to/from 1080p using motion adaptive deinterlacing then they will have a killer product. Especially if it is as well supported and as solid of a product bug-wise as the HD+ (and at a good price point).

Thanks Madshi, I appreciate all the input I can get.

Dan

The final specs have not been released yet, but at this point it is believed that both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will be stored on disc at 1080p and then output at your choice of 720p, 1080i, or 1080p resolution.

So my question is will the VP30 scale a 1080p input signal?

I have read that initially BD and HD-DVD will only output 1080i. If they support 1080P, and you have a display that is 1080P and accepts it, why on earth would would want any additional processing? If the VP30 switched it, you would be all set.

-- Rich

The final specs have not been released yet, but at this point it is believed that both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will be stored on disc at 1080p and then output at your choice of 720p, 1080i, or 1080p resolution.

So my question is will the VP30 scale a 1080p input signal?

With all the questions surrounding Sony's possible anti-piracy schemes whether or not the VP30 can scale a 1080p signal may be moot (though it would be nice). If Sony goes above and beyond HDCP but something similar (ie handshake w/ Sony's proprietary copy protection scheme), I imagine that all scalers coming out before Blu-Ray might be incompatible anyways.

With all the questions surrounding Sony's possible anti-piracy schemes whether or not the VP30 can scale a 1080p signal may be moot (though it would be nice). If Sony goes above and beyond HDCP but something similar (ie handshake w/ Sony's proprietary copy protection scheme), I imagine that all scalers coming out before Blu-Ray might be incompatible anyways.

I don't think you have to worry about that. From what I have read, Sony has three levels of copy protection. They are all focused on the media and the player. I think that HDMI output is not going to change.

-- Rich

Correct me on my math, but even if the VP30 scales 1080i the same way the HD+ does, I'd still be looking at, essentially a 1920x540p --> 1280x720p conversion for my native rate, right? That is, it would scale every 1080i field (540 lines) to the native output?

That's not ideal, but also not so bad.

On an unrelated topic, I would like to know for sure what format movies are going to be stored as on HD-DVD and Blu-ray. Surely not interlaced? That'd be pretty boneheaded, don't you think?

Yes yes yes I know two formats (in the first place) is boneheaded, no analog HD output is, etc. But this would really take the cake.

OK ... at the risk of sounding as Neo as I really am ....
this new unit now available / http://www.dvdo.com/pro/pro_isvp30.php / with a Dish 942 already sending 1080i / and the already great scaler in the Q006 / aside from the lipsync adjustment feature, what does this get me .... isn't the Dragonfly of more use in a better picture with SD ? Or does this do what that does and more for us 006Q owners who want better PQ in SD?

I am eagerly waiting for more details of HD processing as I also have AVM30 which is also supposed to get the scaler upgrade & for me the price difference will be the same. I am sure other AVM30 & D1 owners who also have IScan HD+ are on the fence also.

OK ... at the risk of sounding as Neo as I really am ....
this new unit now available / http://www.dvdo.com/pro/pro_isvp30.php / with a Dish 942 already sending 1080i / and the already great scaler in the Q006 / aside from the lipsync adjustment feature, what does this get me .... isn't the Dragonfly of more use in a better picture with SD ? Or does this do what that does and more for us 006Q owners who want better PQ in SD?

I'm not sure how anyone can answer questions like these without having actually SEEN the hardware in action, or better yet, actual hands on experience with the hardware.

All we have is specs on websites for both the new Iscan and the Dragonfly. Not much else beyond that yet.

I have read that initially BD and HD-DVD will only output 1080i.

If true, that would be a pretty friggin' stupid decision, considering the significant number of 720p plasma, LCD, and DLP sets in use right now. My HD cable box can select which output resolution to use, and so can every single upconverting DVD player on the market. To limit the next-generation players to 1080i would make no sense whatsoever. I seriously doubt that will happen.

If they support 1080P, and you have a display that is 1080P and accepts it, why on earth would would want any additional processing?

My display is not 1080p. It's XGA 1024x768. Whether HD-DVD and Blu-Ray output 720p, 1080i, or 1080p, I will still need the signal to be scaled. I'd rather have an iScan do that work from the highest possible resolution that the disc stores, than to have the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD player scale once and then my display scale again.

Gees, Josh, I thought I was the only dinosaur left around here with an XGA display. :D

Dan

I'm still curious as to how this unit will compare to the DF. In other words....would there be much difference between a Mosquito > VP30 vs a Mosquito > DF setup. The price is sure better. Any thoughts?
Javry


I second that. I am on the preorder list for the Dragonfly, and because of Algolith's short sighted mistakes (no custom resolution controls, no SDI, etc) I want to cancel and move to DVDO. How will its performence compare to the Realta chip????????

Count me as another person disappointed to see the Sil504 used for video deinterlacing in this product. For those who watch film-sourced material, this looks like a fantastic product and a great deal, but those of us whose primary material are video-sourced DVDs will have to wait and see what else is coming down the pipeline.

--Andre

I'm not sure how anyone can answer questions like these without having actually SEEN the hardware in action, or better yet, actual hands on experience with the hardware.

All we have is specs on websites for both the new Iscan and the Dragonfly. Not much else beyond that yet.


I have seen the Dragonfly in action. Its awesome. Now how will the VP30 compare please???

Q. Calling my name? The Sil504 is fine for deinterlacing 480i film, it sucks for 480i video, Faroudja with DCDI does a much better job deinterlacing 480i video. Better are coming.

Now for deinterlacing 1080i, that is something the Sil504 can't do. The Gennum and Realta can do it and they can do it for 1080i film or video at the motion adaptive processing or deinterlacing level. One would guess that the new DVDO will not do motion adaptive deinterlacing of 1080i. As D.H. would then say, no sale. But, do you need 1080p. Most don't and even those with 1080p sets, most such sets won't take 1080p in.

The main reason for having proper 1080i deinterlacing is so that the processor can downconvert from 1080p rather than upconvert from 540p especially for 720p displays so that you are not losing any picture resolution. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't it better to work with more data during processing rather than less.

Count me as another person disappointed to see the Sil504 used for video deinterlacing in this product. For those who watch film-sourced material, this looks like a fantastic product and a great deal, but those of us whose primary material are video-sourced DVDs will have to wait and see what else is coming down the pipeline.

--Andre


Most Movie DVDs are film based, correct?

What are some examples of video-sourced DVDs?

tonydeluce,

TV shows! They're selling tons of boxed sets nowadays, right? Also concerts, recordings of other live events, etc.

My balance of DVDs is probably 95% film-based with a few video-sourced onces tossed in, so any weakness in video-deinterlacing really isn't an issue for me.

-John

Q. Calling my name?

;)


I wasn't trying to pick on you. I appreciate your contributions around here. :)

The Sil504 is fine for deinterlacing 480i film, it sucks for 480i video, Faroudja with DCDI does a much better job deinterlacing 480i video. Better are coming.

I don't s'pose you could drop us a name or two of "better"...could ya? :D





tonydeluce,

TV shows! They're selling tons of boxed sets nowadays, right? Also concerts, recordings of other live events, etc.

My balance of DVDs is probably 95% film-based with a few video-sourced onces tossed in, so any weakness in video-deinterlacing really isn't an issue for me.

-John


I couldn't care less about most of those things you just cited, so video is a relative non-issue for me as well. A lot of TV shows, especially those being shown in HD, are film based now anyways.






I have seen the Dragonfly in action. Its awesome. Now how will the VP30 compare please???

Hell, you should have a better idea than most of the rest of us already! You're halfway there son! :D

You actually have a rare advanage over most of the rest of us.

You have SEEN the Dragonfly so you know exactly what to look for. You're way ahead of the ballgame compared to most of the rest of us.

With that frame of reference you have:

Finances and credit card balances permitting, the best thing you could do would be to demo the Iscan Vp30 personally.

Only YOU are going to know for yourself what's better and what isn't. There's no way anyone can hand you off an answer here on the boards that's going to mean anything.

I don't know what else to tell you. I certainly don't know how anyone here could even begin to give you a meaningful answer to your very good question. We'd ALL love to know, shootout style, how a lot of these toys compare to each other!

I'd eagerly look forward to your posts if you could pull this off. It would make you one of the first people around these parts to have experience under your belt with both the very eagerly awaited Dragonfly and now the new Iscan. :)

I'd eagerly look forward to your posts if you could pull this off. It would make you one of the first people around these parts to have experience under your belt with both the very eagerly awaited Dragonfly and now the new Iscan. :)

I'll second that statement.

Most Movie DVDs are film based, correct?

What are some examples of video-sourced DVDs?

For me, it's performance arts DVDs like concerts, which are often shot with interlaced HD cameras, and downsampled to 480i in some way (producing some troubling artifacts). The movement of fine lines like the violin section's bows really causes a lot of trouble. Dance performances with lots of movement and detail are also a challenge. I watch these DVDs more than normal film DVDs, so video deinterlacing is a concern for me. Frankly, I'm surprised sports fans haven't made a bigger deal about video deinterlacing since they watch interlaced video of moving things, too.

A lot of TV shows are shot in film and transfered via 3:2 telecine --- I was surprised at how good 24 and Alias looked on DVD, especially when they're also released as anamorphic DVDs.

--Andre

Isn't there another thread around here talking about WSR's 100th issue having some ad for the supposed hardware this thing will have? Either Gennum or Faroudja, etc.?


No thats this one from Crystalio II

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1869546#post1869546

Takes a bit for the photo to load,

This DVDO scaler looks like the best scaler solution for me since the only
signal I need upscaled at this point is from my Pioneer Elite 59AVi and
I only watch film-based DVDs. I won't have a display with a 1080p HDMI
input for at least 8 months and by then DVDO will probably be about
ready for their next product release. They also have the best upgrade
program I have ever seen. Its funny more companies don't do this since
this really makes a strong case for alligning with a company today even
though it may not have the ideal product for you today.

No thats this one from Crystalio II

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1869546#post1869546

Takes a bit for the photo to load,

Do you think that guy's right and THAT beast will cost around $2500? Or am I going to jump out of a window when I learn what that really costs? (Heh, not like $2500 is chump change or anything... :p )

Well that guy is me and i guess a price of £2500. the last model launched at £2300 i think, and that was without the very nice genum based stuff

Do you think that guy's right and THAT beast will cost around $2500? Or am I going to jump out of a window when I learn what that really costs? (Heh, not like $2500 is chump change or anything... :p )

That is more like $4000 U.S.

Q,

Remember, £ != $. £2500 is $4539, based on current exchange rates!

So I guess you can start jumping....

-John

Q. Calling my name? The Sil504 is fine for deinterlacing 480i film, it sucks for 480i video, Faroudja with DCDI does a much better job deinterlacing 480i video. Better are coming.

Please define "sucks". The SiI504 doesn't "suck" on deinterlacing anything I've ever watched, not that it's perfect. So what specifically does it suck on? Maybe it slurps or slobbers (or is that blobbers?), but suck is a bit harsh. And as far as deinterlacers go, the Faroudja with DCDI is a far more flawed little critter than the 504. Given a choice between the SiI504 and the Faroudja, the SiL504 is, all things considered, the far better choice. Which is not to say that the Faroudja "sucks".

And there always has been and always will be something better coming along. The future is the most beautiful place in the world, sadly we just don't live in it yet, and me thinks we never will.

A lot of TV shows, especially those being shown in HD, are film based now anyways.






Actually, some programs shot in HD are shot with HD *video* cameras, as opposed to film cameras (and later transfered to HD).

TM

Please define "sucks". The SiI504 doesn't "suck" on deinterlacing anything I've ever watched, not that it's perfect. So what specifically does it suck on? Maybe it slurps or slobbers (or is that blobbers?), but suck is a bit harsh. And as far as deinterlacers go, the Faroudja with DCDI is a far more flawed little critter than the 504. Given a choice between the SiI504 and the Faroudja, the SiL504 is, all things considered, the far better choice. Which is not to say that the Faroudja "sucks".



I am definitely in agreement with you here!

Actually, some programs shot in HD are shot with HD *video* cameras, as opposed to film cameras (and later transfered to HD).

TM

*Some* being the key word. As Q said, "a lot" of HD TV shows are film based....in fact, most of them are film based. I think when some of the reality type shows go HD, they will be using HD Video cameras. But most of the one hour drama shows like CSI will probably continue to be shot on film for quite a while.

1080P24SF for us Qualia owners?

Did you upgrade the board to accept it?

I was under the impression that the FCC had voted to prohibit the use of selectable outputs control and by doing so - left the "Analog hole" open.

"The Commission voted to prohibit the use of "selectable output control" technology on all digital cable and direct-broadcast satellite systems, leaving open the "analog hole" dreaded by the studios."

http://www.cedmagazine.com/cedailydirect/0903/cedaily030911.htm

If this is still the case - then it should be "legal" to accept a digital input, process it and output it over an analog port (such as RGBHV) without restricting the resolution in any way.

Is ABT just being conservative with their approach or are our beloved analog CRT's in jeopardy here. Please comment on the actual legal requirement as well as ABT's position on this.


The analog hole referred to in the link has specifically to do with the reception and output of HD and DTV signals from a set top box. iScans are not set top boxes, so this hole is not there.

I have seen the Dragonfly in action. Its awesome. Now how will the VP30 compare please???

I think you are referring to the Algolith demo at HES. If so, you saw the SO reference board, not the Dragonfly. If you are going to be at CEDIA this year, you can see both for your self.

Is the new iScan 10-bit all the way through or is there an 8-bit step along the way?

Is the new iScan 10-bit all the way through or is there an 8-bit step along the way?

It appears to be 12bit DACs and 10bit processing, but it's a good point to ask if there are any 8 bit stages and where they might influence the image quality.

Wouldn't the DVI and VGA outputs be 8 bit, even though they would benefit from superior processing prior to the output conversion?

Pure speculation, but perhaps DVDO left out any mention of 1080i processing at this point to have something left to announce at Cedia and create a bit of a stir because of the price point of the VP30.

The VP30 specs/price seem more closely aligned with Lumagen now as a VP30 with an SDI card at msrp is $2398. There of course still remains some differences between the two with +/- in each. The VP30's four HDMI inputs, audio switching and delay match is very nice indeed. The Lumagen's extensive calibration controls really help in making a display sing.

I currently own the Lumagen VisionPro HDP, but will look at the VP30 if it includes true 1080i processing. The promised Lumagen update for 1080i processing hasn't happened yet, but is supposed to soon. My concern is that the full potential of the current model will not be realized due to difficult software implementation and new competing products being available at a similar or cheaper price point.

I'm glad there's something new to talk about here other than the Realta which until it ships is, what I believe Rogo called it "High Quality Vaporware".

I think you are referring to the Algolith demo at HES. If so, you saw the SO reference board, not the Dragonfly. If you are going to be at CEDIA this year, you can see both for your self.

I saw the demo and was less than impressed. It easy to make everyone go wow when you use bug scenes from the Discovery channel. Even on the worst department store HD displays, Discovery-HD looks good. I agree I liked the HQV over the Faroudja they were comparing it to, but the demo of an HD movie trailer Vs. the upconvert DVD were nothing to write home about.

Is the new iScan 10-bit all the way through or is there an 8-bit step along the way?

From the datasheet it has both a 10 bit video decoder and a 10 bit scaler
and HDMI supports 10 bits so I would be surprised if there is any
8 bit processing...

Many many many out there watch live TV sports (480i, 720p, 1080i). This is video boys. I have a FP CRT that displays 1080p no problem. It will display up to about 1200p without line overlap. Very important to me and to many others is to deinterlace 480i video without substantial artifacting and then scale it to 720p, 765p, or God forbid, 1080p. My four existing scalers/deinterlacers can handle 480i film no problem. Its 480i and 1080i video which is the problem. Let me be graphic, artifacts galore from the Sil504 when deinterlacing 480i video. Awful. All one has to do is open ze eyes and watch on my 54 x 96 screen, masked down to 54 x 72 for NTSC video, to see why I say the sil504 sucks. Very good on film, but video please IT SUCKS.

The Faroudja with DCDI is much better on video, not as good on film. None of my processors are all that sharp at 1080p. Bandwidth issues on the boards and filtering inherent in the digital to analog output dacs. My FP CRT only takes RGBHV in.

Now I have seen the Silicon Optix demo board and the Dragonfly in NYC. The Dragonfly is based on the Silicon Optix demo board. How good is the Realta chip? Better spoken is how good is the HQV programming? I don't know. My feeling is that the 480i video deinterlacing is about the same as the Faroudja with DCDI. Better than the Sil504 which SUCKS but still no great shakes. I won't really know until I get my hands on one to test and watch video on a BIG screen. Based on some conversations with industry insiders, the Realta does appear to be somewhat better than the Gennum. BUT the Realta costs more leading some to choose the Gennum. We will have to wait and see.

How does the upgrade program work? If I place a preorder next week, when would I need to ship my existing iscanHD/HD+ in for trade in, after I receive the VP30 or 60 days after placing my order?
Also since I am in the process of upgrading my HD to an HD+, will it actually say HD+ on it now so I will be able to get the HD+ trade in price? Or will I still only get the trade in value of an HD.

How does the upgrade program work? If I place a preorder next week, when would I need to ship my existing iscanHD/HD+ in for trade in, after I receive the VP30 or 60 days after placing my order?

You need to send in the unit that you are using as a trade-in credit 60 days from the day that your iScan VP30 ships.

Also since I am in the process of upgrading my HD to an HD+, will it actually say HD+ on it now so I will be able to get the HD+ trade in price? Or will I still only get the trade in value of an HD.

Your upgraded unit will not say HD+ on the front panel, but you will get an HD+ trade-up credit.

I saw the demo and was less than impressed. It easy to make everyone go wow when you use bug scenes from the Discovery channel. Even on the worst department store HD displays, Discovery-HD looks good. I agree I liked the HQV over the Faroudja they were comparing it to, but the demo of an HD movie trailer Vs. the upconvert DVD were nothing to write home about.

You must have missed the demo to the left side of the room. They had side by side comparisons on plasmas and rear projection DLPs. They were using regular DVD movies and HQV test discs. All the picture aspects that trip up my HDLeeza were done flawlessly by the Dragonfly. The demo that your speaking of on the 150"+ JVC HD2k projector looked impressive, though that was just for wow factor and wasn't really what I was looking at.


I think you are referring to the Algolith demo at HES. If so, you saw the SO reference board, not the Dragonfly. If you are going to be at CEDIA this year, you can see both for your self.

Now that is interesting. I was under the assumption that it was a standard working unit. They had several of them floating around.

Hi Josh!
Do we have to take the SDI module out before trading in the unit? Is there a different price for trading in a unit with SDI?
Thanks.

The Sil504 is fine for deinterlacing 480i film, it sucks for 480i video, Faroudja with DCDI does a much better job deinterlacing 480i video.

How good is the Sil504 at deinterlacing 576i film/video? Do you know?

Many many many out there watch live TV sports (480i, 720p, 1080i). This is video boys.

Is it really a film-vs-video thing with the deinterlacers, or is it about material that's natively captured in a progressive vs. interlaced format. Only in the latter case do you have actual movement between fields in the same frame.

So the question is how much HD video material is captured in 1080i versus 1080p or 720p. I suspect that only material captured natively in 1080i would really require good video deinterlacing algorithms.

--
Steve

A SiI-504 in this day and age? It's like 2003 all over again.

In any case, that black flags the VP30 for me.



How good is the Sil504 at deinterlacing 576i film/video? Do you know?
The 504 is much better at keeping a 2-2 cadence than most other deinterlacers, so is one of the best for PAL film material. It does have a serious issue with scrolling titles will PAL material, though. It's video deinterlacing is poor no matter whether it's 480i or 576i.

Just pre-ordered a VP30. Guess I couldn't wait any longer for a firmware upgrade for my iSCAN HD :). Crazy hobby.... SJ

Q,

Remember, £ != $. £2500 is $4539, based on current exchange rates! (for the Crystalio II)

So I guess you can start jumping....

-John

That makes baby Q cry. How I missed that pound sign last night...must've been wishful thinking clouding my vision, although THAT kind of price makes more sense, considering the kind of hardware involved.

Oh well...I still have some people I know that'll be interested in knowing about it.


Is the new iScan 10-bit all the way through or is there an 8-bit step along the way?

http://www.dvdo.com/pro/pro_cf.php

I'm tentatively inclined to answer "yes" if I read the data on this chart and the specific specs sheets for the VP30, but I'll leave this answer to more capable hands. See what you make of it.

Just pre-ordered a VP30. Guess I couldn't wait any longer for a firmware upgrade for my iSCAN HD :). Crazy hobby.... SJ

That is fine, it had many nice features, but did you buy it to get 1080i deinterlacing?

I see nothing to indicate that the VP30 does that. Just scaling which you already have in the Lumagen without the firmware upgrade.

-- Rich

That is fine, it had many nice features, but did you buy it to get 1080i deinterlacing?

I see nothing to indicate that the VP30 does that. Just scaling which you already have in the Lumagen without the firmware upgrade.

-- Rich


I really wish we could get some shootouts arranged between some of these processors. Maybe Kris Deering and Secrets could do it...

That is fine, it had many nice features, but did you buy it to get 1080i deinterlacing?

I see nothing to indicate that the VP30 does that. Just scaling which you already have in the Lumagen without the firmware upgrade.

-- Rich

My setup really needs HD transcoding. Really will simplify everything. Don't have a Lumagen, but rather have the older iSCAN HD. Thanks. SJ

That makes baby Q cry. How I missed that pound sign last night...must've been wishful thinking clouding my vision, although THAT kind of price makes more sense, considering the kind of hardware involved.

Oh well...I still have some people I know that'll be interested in knowing about it.




http://www.dvdo.com/pro/pro_cf.php

I'm tentatively inclined to answer "yes" if I read the data on this chart and the specific specs sheets for the VP30, but I'll leave this answer to more capable hands. See what you make of it.

Lumagen has posted that sil504 is eight bits internally, but additional processing can be done with more bits to avoid scaling errors.

-- Rich

Lumagen has posted that sil504 is eight bits internally, but additional processing can be done with more bits to avoid scaling errors.

-- Rich

Ok.

Pardon the noob question, but how and where would this "additional processing" take place?

Aside: Is the Lumagen HD Pro expected to stay current through year's end, or do they have something else up their sleeve for later this year?

Ok.

Pardon the noob question, but how and where would this "additional processing" take place?

Aside: Is the Lumagen HD Pro expected to stay current through year's end, or do they have something else up their sleeve for later this year?

From the DVDO site:

High Definition Video Scaling Processor and Hub for Video/Audio Switching.

To me this means, they can accept HD signals and scale them to the selected output. The processing is in the audio/video swithcing, audio delay, and scaling to the selected output resolution (preferably the native rate of your display).

-- Rich

You must have missed the demo to the left side of the room. They had side by side comparisons on plasmas and rear projection DLPs. They were using regular DVD movies and HQV test discs. All the picture aspects that trip up my HDLeeza were done flawlessly by the Dragonfly. The demo that your speaking of on the 150"+ JVC HD2k projector looked impressive, though that was just for wow factor and wasn't really what I was looking at.

I did see the left side, and paid most attention to the 61" Plasma they had as what ever model they were using was based upon the NEC which I currently own. Yes the test disc was impressive, but what caught my eye was the real material and I was less than impressed with that as I did not think the image I was seeing was better than what I see at home currently.

With the exception of true 1080i processing in the HD Leeza, there isn't much in the current crop of processors that isn't going to look better and function better than your HD Leeza.

I completely agree with Mark about the Sil504 sucking for Video and lately it is bothering more than ever. Sports and Concert Videos are where it is really evident.

Lumagen had said they thought it was a possibility once they finished all software development including 1080i processing there was a possibility they might provide an option to turn off the Sil504 and use their FPGA solution; however, as I said earlier, because of the difficulty and time it has taken to implement the software to date I do no think that is ever going to happen, but would pleasantly surprised.

As far as DVDO goes, until somebody officially says that there is no 1080i processing in the VP30, I can't help but wonder if they have some "powered by ABT" solution up there sleeve that will address video and 1080i processing. The VP30 could be just what the specs say and be just another stepping stone to get that point especially escpecially based upon its price point, but given DVDO's history, I wouldn't be surprised at all if there is something more than meets the eye and they drive the market a bit. Again, just speculation with a good dose of wishful thinking thrown in.

To me this means, they can accept HD signals and scale them to the selected output. The processing is in the audio/video swithcing, audio delay, and scaling to the selected output resolution (preferably the native rate of your display).

-- Rich

That's how I understood it, pretty much. Just wanted to double check myself. Thanks!

...
Aside: Is the Lumagen HD Pro expected to stay current through year's end, or do they have something else up their sleeve for later this year?

No one knows for sure. I am sure they are not just sitting and idling. There has been much speculation, but nothing more than speculation. According the Cedia Press Kit I saw, they do have time scheduled for a news announcement, so who knows.

The Lumagen as it stands right now is a very solid competitive product. If they can finish the updates promised, then yes they will be very current through the year's end and then some. The speculation is that Lumagen's new announcement, if any, will be a higher priced solution based upon possibly the HQV chip. I do not have a feeling one way or the other and as a current owner would at least really like the current crop to be fully realized, but know that may not happen; hence my interest in what is coming with the VP30 and all others.

No one knows for sure. I am sure they are not just sitting and idling. There has been much speculation, but nothing more than speculation. According the Cedia Press Kit I saw, they do have time scheduled for a news announcement, so who knows.

The Lumagen as it stands right now is a very solid competitive product. If they can finish the updates promised, then yes they will be very current through the year's end and then some. The speculation is that Lumagen's new announcement, if any, will be a higher priced solution based upon possibly the HQV chip. I do not have a feeling one way or the other and as a current owner would at least really like the current crop to be fully realized, but know that may not happen; hence my interest in what is coming with the VP30 and all others.

I suspect this year's CEDIA show will yield some very interesting answers across the boards.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Lumagen could probably just go ahead and put out an HDMI variant of its existing HD Pro this year and still make out quite well for the rest of this year, at least. That HDMI capability is in hot, increasing demand.

I sure hope someone decides to finally get some shootouts off the ground with all of these processors that are coming out, left and right. DVD players are certainly well covered in this regard. Isn't it high time we start seeing that kind of coverage for these devices as well?

I completely agree with Mark about the Sil504 sucking for Video and lately it is bothering more than ever. Sports and Concert Videos are where it is really evident.

I watch a lot of concert videos and they all look fine using the SiI504 (with a Panny RP91 SDI through the HD/HD+). I don't run my HD tuner through the video processor, so can't comment on sports, and could care less about a few jaggies when watching sports. But I stick by what I said, that the SiI504 doesn't suck. Then what would you say of the deinterlacing using all those sub-$50 DVD progressive scan DVD players out there?--now that's how I define "suck". Let's try to raise the level of discussion here.

...
Not to put too fine a point on it, but Lumagen could probably just go ahead and put out an HDMI variant of its existing HD Pro this year and still make out quite well for the rest of this year, at least. That HDMI capability is in hot, increasing demand.

HDMI will be nice when it is fully realized other than just carrying the audio signal. I like that the VP30 will take HDMI including the audio and output the audio via the Optical or Coax. It eliminates a cable, always a good thing in my book.

The Lumagen as it stands right now can take HDMI in no problem via DVI including 480i. In the DVI setup you have a choice of RGB 4:4:4 and two HDMI options 4:2:2 and the other slips my mind right now, so I do not think they need to do anything with the current crop. How far the current crop goes still depends on firmware implementation. I have to believe at some point the development of software will be surpassed by ease of implementing new hardware to solve the problems.

I think both Lumagen and DVDO are very savvy well thought out entities that are very in tune with marketplace and are more about delivering products than talking about them.

I'm working on a preorder special for this for forum members. For those who are interested in this, please drop me an email at jason@avscience.com.

I watch a lot of concert videos and they all look fine using the SiI504 (with a Panny RP91 SDI through the HD/HD+). I don't run my HD tuner through the video processor, so can't comment on sports, and could care less about a few jaggies when watching sports. But I stick by what I said, that the SiI504 doesn't suck. Then what would you say of the deinterlacing using all those sub-$50 DVD progressive scan DVD players out there?--now that's how I define "suck". Let's try to raise the level of discussion here.

CJayB,

Re: Concert Videos, pay close attention to guitar strings, mike stands, cymbals, and once you see the jaggies, it will drive you nuts. I am not saying that the overall picture quality isn't good, there are inherent processing artifacts that are very obvious. My current favorite demo for this is the Dave Matthews Band Central Park Concert which was shot in HD Video and is a very good tranfer to start with. It is a great looking disc except for what I describe above. I am using a Sony DVP-CX777ES via SDI. As an experiment, I hooked the DVD Player out directly to the Display via Component so I could switch back and forth using the DMB Video. At 480i, my NEC Plasma does of better job with Video and looks better than sil504. With the Sony outputting 480p, the improvement is night and day. So to raise the level of discussion, lets just say the sil504 produces an acceptable picture, but there is room for much, much improvement.

Jason,

I'll email you as well, but figure others will ask: will the AVS preorder special allow for trade in value for the current DVDO processors?

I too wish for better video processing. I notice it mostly on the SD recordings from my TiVo.

I only watch sports in HD. The Panny does a nice job with Native Hi-Def signals. Could a HD process do better? Sure.

Would I buy an upgraded processor that did only better SD video? No.

The VP30 looks to be a very nice product with an excellent feature set. But I agree with pciav, if you truely want to replace your dispays native processor it would be nice if the video processing was not a step down from your displays internal scaler.

-- Rich

What are the advantages of 10 bit processing for people who have displays with DVI input only? Does this nullify the advantage of having 10 bit processing or is it better to have 10 bit processing for DVI displays also to round out the errors?

Jason,

I'll email you as well, but figure others will ask: will the AVS preorder special allow for trade in value for the current DVDO processors?

Second that question!

What are the advantages of 10 bit processing for people who have displays with DVI input only? Does this nullify the advantage of having 10 bit processing or is it better to have 10 bit processing for DVI displays also to round out the errors?

I believe that HDMI can handle up to 12 bits and can have better color resolution. DVDs currently are 8 bit so the advantage for them is to remove losses while processing the signal.

Like I said, HDMI has the potential to be better.

-- Rich

Did you see the new scaler in operation yet.
Absolutely love the variety of connections. Looks perfect hub wise.
The disappointing part, it seems, and correct me if I am wrong, that 0 has been done to improve motion adaptive deinterlacing or scaling. Or perhaps someone can tell me the facts about the differences between "Precision scaling" and "Precision scaling II". Arguments like, "well it is version two so it must be great improvement" do not quite do it for me. :)

So basically is it a standard HD+ with extra inputs?

Did you see the new scaler in operation yet.
Absolutely love the variety of connections. Looks perfect hub wise.
The disappointing part, it seems, and correct me if I am wrong, that 0 has been done to improve motion adaptive deinterlacing or scaling. Or perhaps someone can tell me the facts about the differences between "Precision scaling" and "Precision scaling II". Arguments like, "well it is version two so it must be great improvement" do not quite do it for me. :)

So basically is it a standard HD+ with extra inputs?

Good questions. I think only Josh or someone directly from DVDO or ABT could really tell us what the differences are between "precision scaling I and II" and basically:

"What are the differences between this unit and the Iscan HD+ besides HDMI?"

Or perhaps someone can tell me the facts about the differences between "Precision scaling" and "Precision scaling II".

Precision Video Scaling (I) is 9-bit. Precision Video Scaling II is 10-bit and also includes enhanced sharpness control and non-linear scaling (typically used for 4:3 signals on 16:9 displays).

Precision Video Scaling (I) is 9-bit. Precision Video Scaling II is 10-bit and also includes enhanced sharpness control and non-linear scaling (typically used for 4:3 signals on 16:9 displays).

Thanks!

1080p24sf?

1080p24sf?

I've been wondering when you'd show up! :)

CJayB,

Re: Concert Videos, pay close attention to guitar strings, mike stands, cymbals, and once you see the jaggies, it will drive you nuts. I am not saying that the overall picture quality isn't good, there are inherent processing artifacts that are very obvious. My current favorite demo for this is the Dave Matthews Band Central Park Concert which was shot in HD Video and is a very good tranfer to start with. It is a great looking disc except for what I describe above. I am using a Sony DVP-CX777ES via SDI. As an experiment, I hooked the DVD Player out directly to the Display via Component so I could switch back and forth using the DMB Video. At 480i, my NEC Plasma does of better job with Video and looks better than sil504. With the Sony outputting 480p, the improvement is night and day. So to raise the level of discussion, lets just say the sil504 produces an acceptable picture, but there is room for much, much improvement.

Thank you!

This is the kind of discussion I like to see.

Alas, I don't have the Dave Matthews Band DVD to check out using both SiI504 and Faroudja DCDI deinterlacing.

However, though jaggies drive me nuts when watching films (and certain videos), I can assure you that seeing jaggies on guitar strings etc. does not (blessedly) drive me nuts, but perhaps slightly annoy me. So given a choice, I'd much rather get the quality of the 504 over the Faroudja since I'm much more tuned to film, which is likely the case with most visiting this forum. And the Faroudja even though it has good video deinterlacing is still not perfect, and then throw on top of that the other problems with the very flawed Faroudja chip. There is no better choice than the SiI504 that is currently available at a reasonable price point (and yes, reasonable by my standards, others would not find $50K unreasonable to get perfect deinterlacing).

The 504 is much better at keeping a 2-2 cadence than most other deinterlacers, so is one of the best for PAL film material. It does have a serious issue with scrolling titles will PAL material, though. It's video deinterlacing is poor no matter whether it's 480i or 576i.
Ok. I don't care much about video deinterlacing, so I can live with that. But could you please elaborate about this issue with scrolling titles? Do you mean end credits and such? How does this issue manifest itself?

Josh I am about 95% sure I will be placing an order via the special
deal for forum members.

The only item oustanding that I want to be clear about is if
I supply a 10bit 480i signal via HDMI is there any 8 bit
processing going on via Si504 or otherwise through the
signal chain to outputing 10bit over HDMI output, 1080i
or otherwise?

Also I assume that if I supply 1080i HDMI it will simply
be passed through. This also o.k. for me at this point
since my display does not accept 1080p over HDMI
and I probably won't have a display that does so
for at least 8 months.

De-interlacing 1080p sourced material transmitted via
1080i is very easy to do so I expect my display does it
without any issues.

"What are the differences between this unit and the Iscan HD+ besides HDMI?"

Difference #1: The VP30 can process and scale an analog component HD resolution input signal, while the HD+ passes them through unprocessed.

Ok. I don't care much about video deinterlacing, so I can live with that. But could you please elaborate about this issue with scrolling titles? Do you mean end credits and such? How does this issue manifest itself?
TV stations often overlay interlaced titles onto progressive shows. The SiI-504 sees the progressive cadence and weives the image together, even though the titles aren't progressive, leaving ugly combing on the titles.

Actually, a lot of deinterlacers do this (including the Faroudja chips), but the SiI seems to be particularly bad with it.

The DVDO trade in page says, "The trade-in offer is not available on B-stock purchases and cannot be combined with other promotional offers."

So can I pre-order the VP30 for $1799 and still qualify for the $999 trade in on my HD+?

- Collin

Here are the main differences between the VP30 and the HD/HD+:

•4 HDMI Inputs and 1 HDMI Output (Audio/Video)

HD and HD+ have 1 DVI input and 1 DVI output

•Precision Video Scaling II – 10-bit scaling, non-linear scaling, enhanced sharpness control

HD and HD+ use Precision Video Scaling (I) which is 9-bit

•12-bit Video Decoder (480p/576p/720p/1080i)

HD and HD+ use 10-bit Video Decoder (VP30 does for 480i and 576i)

•BNC input and output capable of RGBHV or Component

HD and HD+ have HD15 connectors capable of RGBHV or Component

•RGBHV Input is processed and transcoded

HD and HD+ pass through on HD15 input

•Component HD is processed and transcoded

HD and HD+ pass through 720p and 1080i on Component inputs

•Elegant front panel design
•Analog Audio Input

The DVDO trade in page says, "The trade-in offer is not available on B-stock purchases and cannot be combined with other promotional offers."

So can I pre-order the VP30 for $1799 and still qualify for the $999 trade in on my HD+?



Yes, you can combine those two offers, the trade-up program and the early order dsicount. The trade-in credit for the HD+ is $1000.

The verbiage that you quoted only means that you can not purchase a B-Stock VP30, if they become available ;) , and trade-in your HD+ for $1000.

Josh I am about 95% sure I will be placing an order via the special
deal for forum members.

The only item oustanding that I want to be clear about is if
I supply a 10bit 480i signal via HDMI is there any 8 bit
processing going on via Si504 or otherwise through the
signal chain to outputing 10bit over HDMI output, 1080i
or otherwise?

Also I assume that if I supply 1080i HDMI it will simply
be passed through. This also o.k. for me at this point
since my display does not accept 1080p over HDMI
and I probably won't have a display that does so
for at least 8 months.

De-interlacing 1080p sourced material transmitted via
1080i is very easy to do so I expect my display does it
without any issues.

While I am waiting for Josh to answer the above I guess
I should note that if you keep the 8 most significant bits
of a 10 bit number you loose only a fraction of 1 percent
of the resolution since 2 to the 10th is equal to 1024 and
ignoring the two least significant bits which are the numbers
zero, one, two, and three, i.e., making them a constant for
processing, should result in a fraction of 1 percent error.

Josh, I'm an idiot when it comes to the technical aspects of scalers. Tell me in idiot's language what the VP30 does to address previous deficiencies in deinterlacing of video SD and HD sources. Does it work as least as well as DCDi? That I understand since I have a Faroudja box now. Is the film deinterlacing BETTER than DCDi?

I have 3 sources: A Denon DVD player, a Scientific Atlanta Comcast HD box and a LG OTA HDTV tuner. All can be output at 480i if the VP30 is a better deinterlacer than they have. The Denon has DCDi processing for 480P or 480i with no deinterlacing. The others I am assuming are the pretty basic deinterlacers you find in such boxes. The Comcast box is limited to 480i or 720P. The LG box can output 480i or 1080i, otherwise it outputs 480p or 720p. Neither can output 720i.

How would you input these to the VP30? As 480i, or 480p from the Denon and 720P from the other two boxes? Both the Comcast box and the LG box are non HDCP and could be connected via DVI to the VP30. HDCP is a problem with the Denon, so it is limited to 480P over component for now. The reason it is a problem is that the display will be non HDCP.

BTW, while I'm at it I want to thank you personally for your participation here. Speaking only for myself, I consider this kind of thing a very big positive when deciding who to buy from.

Dan

Yes, you can combine those two offers, the trade-up program and the early order dsicount. The trade-in credit for the HD+ is $1000.

The verbiage that you quoted only means that you can not purchase a B-Stock VP30, if they become available ;) , and trade-in your HD+ for $1000.

Josh,
I purchased a B stock HD+ about 5 weeks ago. Does your reply mean that I can participate in the trade in program for the VP30?

I'm working on a preorder special for this for forum members. For those who are interested in this, please drop me an email at jason@avscience.com.

........way to go Jason
Javry

Josh,
I purchased a B stock HD+ about 5 weeks ago. Does your reply mean that I can participate in the trade in program for the VP30?

Yes and you can get the full trade-up credit for your HD+ ($1000).

I guess
I should note that if you keep the 8 most significant bits
of a 10 bit number you loose only a fraction of 1 percent
of the resolution since 2 to the 10th is equal to 1024 and
ignoring the two least significant bits which are the numbers
zero, one, two, and three, i.e., making them a constant for
processing, should result in a fraction of 1 percent error.

You'll lose a lot more resolution than that since you will have 1/4th the number of levels. When you chop off the bottom bits, they come off every level, not just the lowest numbers.

--Andre

Does it work as least as well as DCDi? That I understand since I have a Faroudja box now. Is the film deinterlacing BETTER than DCDi?

How would you input these to the VP30? As 480i, or 480p from the Denon and 720P from the other two boxes?

The VP30 uses the SiI504 for deinterlacing. There is plenty of information out there comparing the deinterlacing of this chip to the other solutions, like Faroudja.

As far as your individual sources, thisd is the priority I would use for connections:

1) HDMI/DVI when available (Are you sure your cable box does not output HDCP?) or SDI for SD sources
2) Component
3) S-Video
4) Composite

I've gotten feedback from a local higly respected ISF calibrator that the component output of the of the 3910 into the HD+ at 480i and out via DVI @ 720p easily looked better then the DVI output of the 3910 @ 720p.

If you are one of our customers living outside of the United States, we are working on an upgrade program for you. If you would like to be notified when we have this program available in your country please go to here http://www.dvdo.com/faq/faq_upg.html and click on the link right under the trade-up values.

You'll lose a lot more resolution than that since you will have 1/4th the number of levels. When you chop off the bottom bits, they come off every level, not just the lowest numbers.

--Andre

That is incorrect. That would be true if you chopped off the two MSBs not the two
LSBs.

Think of it this way. A 10 bit number is a binary representation of the decimal
values: 0, 1, 2, 3, ... 1022, 1023.

If you chopped off the two MSBs you only have the following values:
0, 1, 2, 3, ... , 255
in the above case you throw away one fourth of the values.

If you chopped off the two LSBs you have the following values:
4, 5, 6, ... 1022, 1023.
in this case you throw away only four of the values.

Understood?

Hi Josh!
Do I keep the SDI module & reinstall it in VP30 before trading in the HD+?
Thanks.

So it looks like a minimum of a complete true 10-bit path has not yet been realized from DVDO.

So it looks like a minimum of a complete true 10-bit path has not yet been realized from DVDO.

I believe Josh is checking with Engineering - just because the 504 is
8 bit does not mean DVDO can't be doing something to preserve
the two LSBs in the processing.

The SiI504 is 8-bit.

Edit: Dale corrected me

The SiI504 is 8-bit in, 10-bit out

Thanks Josh,

Interesting, what does the DVDO do with a 10 bit HDMI input? Throw
away the two LSBs? Since the 504 outputs 10 bits this appears to
be the most likely scenario. Which is not all that bad since we only
loose a fraction of 1% of the input value but this would be good to know.

And certainly a concern for those wanting to the get the last 1% of
performance :-)

P.S. Does anyone have a link to the datasheet for the 504?

That is incorrect. That would be true if you chopped off the two MSBs not the two
LSBs.

Think of it this way. A 10 bit number is a binary representation of the decimal
values: 0, 1, 2, 3, ... 1022, 1023.

If you chopped off the two MSBs you only have the following values:
0, 1, 2, 3, ... , 255
in the above case you throw away one fourth of the values.

If you chopped off the two LSBs you have the following values:
4, 5, 6, ... 1022, 1023.
in this case you throw away only four of the values.


well I think AndreYew is correct. With 2 bit less u r doing a /4. U only get 25% of the original data. In your example, 4-1023, thare are 1020 discrete states. How do u get 1020 states with only 8 bit ?

Although the 8 bit factor may not be that big deal as an input since the data on disk is 8bit anyway. In fact IMO it may be better than 10bit input: since the source is only 8bit, to provide a 10bit input to the processor u r doing an expansion at the source. This defeats the purpose of a "pure unprocessed" video as an input for the iScan. Of course the real thing that matters is whether internally the Si504 operates in 10bit. I hope it is.

8-bit vs 10-bit
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=556134

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=556006

well I think AndreYew is correct. With 2 bit less u r doing a /4. U only get 25% of the original data. In your example, 4-1023, thare are 1022 discrete states. How do u get 1022 states with only 8 bit ?

Although the 8 bit factor may not be that big deal as an input since the data on disk is 8bit anyway. In fact IMO it may be better than 10bit input: since the source is only 8bit, to provide a 10bit input to the processor u r doing an expansion at the source. This defeats the purpose of a "pure unprocessed" video as an input for the iScan. Of course the real thing that matters is whether internally the Si504 operates in 10bit. I hope it is.

I don't know how to make this any clearer. This is a very common
engineering practice and well understood.

The lowest two LSBs only differentiate the four lowest values, i.e. 00, 01, 10, 11 as follows:
xxxxxxxx00, xxxxxxxx01, xxxxxxxx10, xxxxxxxx11
Throwing them away still leaves 2 to the 10th minus 2 to the 2nd states , i.e.
1024 - 4 = 1020 distinct states treating the lower two bits as "don't care"
values for processing which gives xxxxxxxxdd ( the lower 2 bits don't have
to be stored or directly processed but we loose four values of resolution out
of 1024 ).

Throwing away the two MSBs leaves only 256 distinct states left since
11xxxxxxxx, 10xxxxxxxx, 01xxxxxxxx, 00xxxxxxxx simply becomes xxxxxxxx.

In other words whenever you are acquiring or storing data that is x bits
more than the input or storage medium you want to eliminate x LSBs and
not X MSBs for the reason above.

Another example. Let's say you are reading a voltage value that corresponds
to distance, i.e. .01 volts equals .1 inch in position. Your A/D is 10 bits but
you can only store 8 bits. If you throw away the two lower LSBs you have
only thrown away 4 x .01 volts or 4 x .1 inch of distance. But if you
throw the two MSBs you are throwing away ( 1024 - 256 ) x .1 inches
of distance.

You and AndrewYew are absolutely correct though if the 8 bit stored data
is not processed as xxxxxxxxdd data.

I agree that keeping the input 8 bits specifically for DVDs would be ideal
except that many DVDs players are now touting 10 bit processing and
outputing 10 bits via HDMI...

This is why I am stating that is not that big of a problem if DVDO VP30
scaler uses the 504 with its 8 bits input as long as process chain treats
these 8 bits as the 8 Most Significant Bits and not the 8 Least Significant
bits of the 10 bit input. This might also explain the 8 bit in, 10 bit out
of the 504 and that is why I am looking for the datasheet.

The only 10-bit output DVD players are the ones that either use Faroudja or SO/Terranex processing and have an HDMI output. At this time, both sides of the "and" must be met.

I don't know how to make this any clearer. This is a very common
engineering practice and well understood.

The lowest two LSBs only differentiate the four lowest values, i.e. 00, 01, 10, 11 as follows:
xxxxxxxx00, xxxxxxxx01, xxxxxxxx10, xxxxxxxx11
Throwing them away still leaves 2 to the 10th minus 2 to the 2nd states , i.e.
1024 - 4 = 1020 distinct states treating the lower two bits as "don't care"
values for processing which gives xxxxxxxxdd ( the lower 2 bits don't have
to be stored or directly processed but we loose four values of resolution out
of 1024 ).

Throwing away the two MSBs leaves only 256 distinct states left since
11xxxxxxxx, 10xxxxxxxx, 01xxxxxxxx, 00xxxxxxxx simply becomes xxxxxxxx.

In other words whenever you are acquiring or storing data that is x bits
more than the input or storage medium you want to eliminate x LSBs and
not X MSBs for the reason above.

Another example. Let's say you are reading a voltage value that corresponds
to distance, i.e. .01 volts equals .1 inch in position. Your A/D is 10 bits but
you can only store 8 bits. If you throw away the two lower LSBs you have
only thrown away 4 x .01 volts or 4 x .1 inch of distance. But if you
throw the two MSBs you are throwing away ( 1024 - 256 ) x .1 inches
of distance.

You and AndrewYew are absolutely correct though if the 8 bit stored data
is not processed as xxxxxxxxdd data.

I agree that keeping the input 8 bits specifically for DVDs would be ideal
except that many DVDs players are now touting 10 bit processing and
outputing 10 bits via HDMI...

This is why I am stating that is not that big of a problem if DVDO VP30
scaler uses the 504 with its 8 bits input as long as process chain treats
these 8 bits as the 8 Most Significant Bits and not the 8 Least Significant
bits of the 10 bit input. This might also explain the 8 bit in, 10 bit out
of the 504 and that is why I am looking for the datasheet.

Tossing out LSBs or MSBs is not important. 8 bits holds 256 discrete states period. You can assume that you've got the two bottom bits perpetually held at zero and keep your original 10 bit range, but you've still got only 256 states ranging from 0 to 1024. You'd have for example, 0, 4, 8, ... , 1016, 1020, 1024.

I see where you're going with the voltage = distance analogy. What you are talking about is whether the 256 states are used for maximum range or maximum resolution. In the toss out the MSBs case you can measure in increments of .1 inches of distance, but can only cover a range of 25.6 inches. In the toss out the LSBs case you can measure 102.4 inches, but only in increments of .4 inches of distance.

Now you are correct to assume you will toss out the LSBs in video conversion. This is the extra detail that your bit depth was buying you. If you toss out the MSBs you would clip all your upper IREs. For instance, if you tossed out the upper 2 bits of your 10 bit source, video codes 256-1024 (dark gray to 100% white) would suddenly all become 255 (100% white) in 8 bit space.

Since the most important 480i source, DVD, is only 8 bit video the Sil504's 8 bit input path should suffice. Any DVD player which claims to output higher than 8 bit video is doing some processing which you would probably rather have the iScan do.

One of the bigger problems in video is the cascade of potential rounding errors when extra resolution used in a processing stage needs to be thrown away when data is passed to another processing stage. For example, you multiply two 8 bit input values creating potentially 16 bits of intermediate resolution. You then have to round this value down to 8 bits before sending it on to the scaler. With 10 bits you could preserve some of this extra resolution on the way to the scaler. This extra 2 bits of resolution from the Sil504 should help the scaling section do a better job now that it's fully 10 bit friendly.

The Sil504 is an SD deinterlacer as far as I know. On the HD+ 1080i is not deinterlaced with 3:2 pulldown detection or a motion adaptive algorithm. It is a simple BOB deinterlace. I believe this is done by the scaling engine rather than the Sil504. This is likely still true on the VP30. Since the scaling engine is now 10 bit any HD sources should have a full 10 bit data path through this box. The only 8 bit bottleneck seems to be for interlaced SD sources. For all practical purposes this looks like a full 10 bit box to me.

The real drawbacks are that it appears we still don't have an edge adaptive deinterlacer for 480i or a film mode, motion adaptive, edge adaptive deinterlacer for 1080i. This is still a cool box... 4 HDMIs, analog audio in, YPbPr digital output, 10 bit data path, and non-linear stretch all sound pretty sweet to me. I'm definitely upgrading.

- Collin

Josh

if i get a VP30 instead of my iscan hd sdi mode what will be the improvement on sd material dvd ?
i'am not tallking about technical improvement BUT what i will SEE on the screen:
is the image more smooth or more sharp
is the black are better
and so on .....

Thank's

bob

The Sil504 is an SD deinterlacer as far as I know. On the HD+ 1080i is not deinterlaced with 3:2 pulldown detection or a motion adaptive algorithm. It is a simple BOB deinterlace. I believe this is done by the scaling engine rather than the Sil504. This is likely still true on the VP30. Since the scaling engine is now 10 bit any HD sources should have a full 10 bit data path through this box. The only 8 bit bottleneck seems to be for interlaced SD sources. For all practical purposes this looks like a full 10 bit box to me.

This is what I thought also. It can't do 1080i 3:2 pulldown. I had hoped it can. At least a film 3:2 (so we can dream of a 1080p 48/72hz genlocked src). Video is difficult I guess.

Still, a great box. 10bit HDMI out fits very well with new DLP PJs.

Yes and you can get the full trade-up credit for your HD+ ($1000).

You da man!!!!!!!!! :)

Thanks for the response Josh. Interestingly, the Scientific Atlanta Explorer 3250 they're using here does NOT have HDCP, go figure. Also appreciate your input on the Denon, I've seen this before, nice to see it confirmed. I'll try it both ways.

I read Josh's response about video deinterlacing to mean the VP30 still isn't quite as good as DCDi. That's a disappointment, you'd think after years have passed that this would no longer be the case.

Still, this is looking like the best overall solution for me. I particularly like the switching in this unit, will enable me to simplify my system and increase WAF (wife approval factor).

When is this puppy shipping? Before Cedia??

Dan

Dan,

I'm looking at the same setup as you, to my limited understanding is this correct for the VP30 /SX50 setup:

1) does 480i to 480p then scaled to 1400x1050p @ 60Hz
2) Bobs 1080i to 540p then scales up to 1400x1050p@60Hz
3) scales 720p to 1400x1050p @60Hz

Sound right?

If so, I wish that they could process sub-frames of the 1080i picture to at least do 3:2 pulldown detection. They wouldn't need that many more "areas" of definition to determine if 480i or 1080i are in 3:2 cadence.

In this case we wouldn't get 1080i deinterlacing (except for Bob), but we would get pulldown detection for 1080i film sources.

I don't know the Sil504 path so I have no idea what it would take to do this. Just commenting.

Josh,

I got my HD+ last week. Should I return it now before 30 days are up?

Pablo

Sounds right to me occ. I'm going to input my Denon at 480 i or p (will try both ways) via component. I'm going to input both the cable box and HDTV OTA receivers at 720p over DVI (and will try 480i), and output via a single hdmi to dvi cable to the projector at native resolution of 1400 x 1050 @ 60hz. Should be a very clean setup.

Dan

I just hate trying to get a setup that will last a while and losing the 1080i->1080p conversion. Your HDTV settop will be scaling the 1080i to 720p, and I'd like to get the scaler to do that instead. It is my understanding that most all non -CRT based sets are doing the 1080i->540p bob and I wanted to do a little better than that. Maybe its not practical. Dragonfly does it though, don't they?

Jason,

I'll email you as well, but figure others will ask: will the AVS preorder special allow for trade in value for the current DVDO processors?
Working on that as well.

Yes but Dragonfly won't support our output resolution so doesn't matter. I was fully prepared to spend the $2500 for the Dragonfly because it addresses the video deinterlacing issue, but amazingly it doesn't support an established DILA resolution. Still astounded by this oversight.

I'm a little confused about the cable situation with the SX50. It has a DVI-I input (DVI-D plus DVI-A). But why would you need the DVI-A part of this and wouldn't it just be simpler to use an HDMI to DVI-D cable?

Josh, would there be any DVI-A output through the HDMI port of the VP30?

Dan

That still puts me on the fence, I may see if they get to variable output resolutions on the dragonfly.

The Realta chip with HQV and the Gennum chip both do that. So any deinterlacing product using either of those chips would be expected to do that. Yes. the Dragonfly, with uses the Realta chip and which rumor has as using an input/output modified version of the Silicon Optix (Realta) demonstration board, will do that but it isn't on the market yet.

Here are the main differences between the VP30 and the HD/HD+:

•4 HDMI Inputs and 1 HDMI Output (Audio/Video)

HD and HD+ have 1 DVI input and 1 DVI output

•Precision Video Scaling II – 10-bit scaling, non-linear scaling, enhanced sharpness control

HD and HD+ use Precision Video Scaling (I) which is 9-bit

•12-bit Video Decoder (480p/576p/720p/1080i)

HD and HD+ use 10-bit Video Decoder (VP30 does for 480i and 576i)

•BNC input and output capable of RGBHV or Component

HD and HD+ have HD15 connectors capable of RGBHV or Component

•RGBHV Input is processed and transcoded

HD and HD+ pass through on HD15 input

•Component HD is processed and transcoded

HD and HD+ pass through 720p and 1080i on Component inputs

•Elegant front panel design
•Analog Audio Input

That's very helpful. Looking forward to my email from Jason as well. :)





Josh,

I got my HD+ last week. Should I return it now before 30 days are up?

Pablo

How can you lose? ;) You know you want to do it! :)

I remember your other post earlier stating that universal maxim of consumer electronics: "There's always something bigger and better around the corner." ;)
Touche!!

That will teach me to post in a public place, huh????

I guess my initial reaction was that DVDO will actually ship the VP30 this fall as promised - but we will have to wait and see.

Touche!!

That will teach me to post in a public place, huh????

I guess my initial reaction was that DVDO will actually ship the VP30 this fall as promised - but we will have to wait and see.

:D

I believe that it IS shipping this Fall, is it not? The pre-order cutoff is 9-15 and it would ship a short time after that? Or did I miss something?

BTW, very informative read on the last page or so with the discussion of 8-bit, 10- bit, etc.

I've read this entire thread, gone over the specs on the new VP30, but what is the significance of the "30" in the product name?

Thanks

I've read this entire thread, gone over the specs on the new VP30, but what is the significance of the "30" in the product name?

Thanks

Good question. Maybe it's as significant as "Xbox360"? :p

I've read this entire thread, gone over the specs on the new VP30, but what is the significance of the "30" in the product name?

Thanks

4 pages on, and someone articulates a question that was on my mind but never thought to ask.

And while we are at it, what is the significance of the "VP"?

VP = Video Processor

30 = Third Generation (HD was first, HD+ was second gen)

30 = Third Generation (HD was first, HD+ was second gen)

Thanks yet again. :)

Yep, thanks from here too.

I had figured out the VP, just not the other.

A bit off-topic, but I have an extra SDI-601 module. If anyone needs one, give me a shout.

If you chopped off the two LSBs you have the following values:
4, 5, 6, ... 1022, 1023.
in this case you throw away only four of the values.

Understood?
Put simply, how are you claiming that 5 and 6 are encoded in this case?

--Darin

This may be an odd question, but are the picture control settings on the VP30 going to have identical values to the HD+?

If I have currently calibrated Video Source #1 on the HD+ to have Brightness = 5, Contrast = 10, and Saturation = 15, will those same values equate to the VP30, or will I have to recalibrate for each source? I have a lot of video sources connected to my HD+, and the thought of have to recalibrate all of them is daunting.

Darin,

OT

As an embedded systems designer for hardware/firmware I've resisted the temptation to jump into that discussion its too OT. It's just plain way off and we'll leave it at that.

:rolleyes:

Tossing out LSBs or MSBs is not important. 8 bits holds 256 discrete states period. You can assume that you've got the two bottom bits perpetually held at zero and keep your original 10 bit range, but you've still got only 256 states ranging from 0 to 1024. You'd have for example, 0, 4, 8, ... , 1016, 1020, 1024.

I see where you're going with the voltage = distance analogy. What you are talking about is whether the 256 states are used for maximum range or maximum resolution. In the toss out the MSBs case you can measure in increments of .1 inches of distance, but can only cover a range of 25.6 inches. In the toss out the LSBs case you can measure 102.4 inches, but only in increments of .4 inches of distance.

Now you are correct to assume you will toss out the LSBs in video conversion. This is the extra detail that your bit depth was buying you. If you toss out the MSBs you would clip all your upper IREs. For instance, if you tossed out the upper 2 bits of your 10 bit source, video codes 256-1024 (dark gray to 100% white) would suddenly all become 255 (100% white) in 8 bit space.

Since the most important 480i source, DVD, is only 8 bit video the Sil504's 8 bit input path should suffice. Any DVD player which claims to output higher than 8 bit video is doing some processing which you would probably rather have the iScan do.

One of the bigger problems in video is the cascade of potential rounding errors when extra resolution used in a processing stage needs to be thrown away when data is passed to another processing stage. For example, you multiply two 8 bit input values creating potentially 16 bits of intermediate resolution. You then have to round this value down to 8 bits before sending it on to the scaler. With 10 bits you could preserve some of this extra resolution on the way to the scaler. This extra 2 bits of resolution from the Sil504 should help the scaling section do a better job now that it's fully 10 bit friendly.

The Sil504 is an SD deinterlacer as far as I know. On the HD+ 1080i is not deinterlaced with 3:2 pulldown detection or a motion adaptive algorithm. It is a simple BOB deinterlace. I believe this is done by the scaling engine rather than the Sil504. This is likely still true on the VP30. Since the scaling engine is now 10 bit any HD sources should have a full 10 bit data path through this box. The only 8 bit bottleneck seems to be for interlaced SD sources. For all practical purposes this looks like a full 10 bit box to me.

The real drawbacks are that it appears we still don't have an edge adaptive deinterlacer for 480i or a film mode, motion adaptive, edge adaptive deinterlacer for 1080i. This is still a cool box... 4 HDMIs, analog audio in, YPbPr digital output, 10 bit data path, and non-linear stretch all sound pretty sweet to me. I'm definitely upgrading.

- Collin

Thanks for the clarification and that is exactly the point I was trying to make...

The 1080i de-interlacing isn't important to me at this point since I won't have
a display that supports a 1080p input for at least 8 months. Therefore this
product should work out great for me. 4 HMDI and audio/video sync along
with the 480i upscaling are great features for my application.

The lowest two LSBs only differentiate the four lowest values, i.e. 00, 01, 10, 11 as follows:
xxxxxxxx00, xxxxxxxx01, xxxxxxxx10, xxxxxxxx11


But they throw away the four lowest values for every number. How do you distinguish between 1023 and 1022? You can't. In fact, you cannot distinguish between 1023, 1022, 1021, and 1020 since the top 8 bits will all be the same. In a fixed-point representation, resolution is exactly the same as dynamic range.

Throwing them away still leaves 2 to the 10th minus 2 to the 2nd states , i.e.
1024 - 4 = 1020 distinct states treating the lower two bits as "don't care"
values for processing which gives xxxxxxxxdd ( the lower 2 bits don't have
to be stored or directly processed but we loose four values of resolution out
of 1024 ).

OK, think about this another way: 8 bits can unambiguously represent 256 discrete levels. 256 is much less than 1020. So how is 1020 levels 8 bits?

--Andre

Darin,

OT

As an embedded systems designer for hardware/firmware I've resisted the temptation to jump into that discussion its too OT. It's just plain way off and we'll leave it at that.

:rolleyes:

It's a bit technical, but how is it off topic? I've found the discussions in this thread to be VERY informative and I wouldn't want it to change whatsoever.

Keep it up, guys! These are the kinds of free lessons I come to AVS for! :)

The VP30 sounds like a nice incremental improvement over the HD+. Since it includes the same deinterlacing chip as the HD+ they should have called it the HD++. If this had been out a few months ago, I probably would not have pre-ordered the Dragonfly. But as it stands, I'm still planning to go through with the Dragonfly purchase.

Q,
OK, If it doesn't seem to bother anyone else then I'm all for it. :)


Dan,
I asked a question and received a voicemail stating that the Algolith will support custom resolutions in the next phase. They will have dates in the next week or so. I think I'll wait for a bit, although the DVDO price and customer service is just plain excellent. I just really want more than a 540p Bob out of all of this equipment.

Q,
OK, If it doesn't seem to bother anyone else then I'm all for it. :)

:)


Dan,
I asked a question and received a voicemail stating that the Algolith will support custom resolutions in the next phase. They will have dates in the next week or so. I think I'll wait for a bit, although the DVDO price and customer service is just plain excellent. I just really want more than a 540p Bob out of all of this equipment.

Are these newer processors going to be shown at the upcoming CEDIA convention in September? That certainly could yield us some more fruitful information going in.

BTW, I think Bland's question got lost a page ago: Does this new Iscan do 1080p24sf?

HD deinterlacing??

1080P24sF support?

HD deinterlacing??

1080P24sF support?

I assume that if it has hd de-interlacing, then they wouldnt be shy about it, and it would have a top position on their marketing. :cool:

Per Johnny

Yeah. Josh's participation here is enormously appreciated, but I think we can learn as much from what has *not* been said as from what has. Don't get me wrong - I have an HD and an HD+ (in two separate theaters) and I'm a pretty happy DVDO owner. Love the service, love the company.

However, I really want my next scaler to be able to handle my next display...

TM

The SiI504 is being used for deinterlacing so the VP30 will not support true 1080i deinterlacing. As has been stated by others, like Ofer, we are working on our next-generation deinterlacer which we should have displayed at our booth at CEDIA.

1080P24sF support?

Not at launch.

Josh, would there be any DVI-A output through the HDMI port of the VP30?



For an analog output, I would use the BNCs and then use a BNC-to-DVI-I dongle, if your projector does not have a standard analog input.

There is no analog signal on the HDMI output.

So, Josh, can you tell us more about the next de-interlacers time frame? Sorry, thought I'd give it a shot. I'm hoping that your upgrade policy continues to be just as good as it was this time. Figure I'd get more value jumping on the VP30 now and then upgrading when the next gen comes around.

We absolutely plan on continuing our upgrade program so that our customers have access to the latest and greatest ABT technologies. We do not have a specified time frame for the implementation of this next-generation deinterlacer (and honestly, if we did I wouldn't be able to tell you).

I do have one correction to make to the datasheet. It specifies 12-bit DACs, they are actually 10-bit, 300 MHz instrumentation-quality DACs, with up to 10x oversampling and 2X oversampling for 1080p. I do not believe that any other video processor 2x oversamples 1080p.

Hai Josh,

Just to be sure, is the sofware for the vp30 based on the work done on the 2.91 release (so is this the 3.0 release). In other words can we expect the new features added in 2.91 to be available on the vp30 (interlace over hdmi and vertical image shift come to mind).

And am i correct to suspect this is a merge of the old HD+ and denon 5910 code (that was also 10 bits). Last question is there enough extra room on the fpga's to expect more features in the vp30 platform (does it have room to grow).

Hope you can reply on a few of these keep up the good work,

Daniel.

But they throw away the four lowest values for every number. How do you distinguish between 1023 and 1022? You can't. In fact, you cannot distinguish between 1023, 1022, 1021, and 1020 since the top 8 bits will all be the same. In a fixed-point representation, resolution is exactly the same as dynamic range.



OK, think about this another way: 8 bits can unambiguously represent 256 discrete levels. 256 is much less than 1020. So how is 1020 levels 8 bits?

--Andre

Understood. What I was getting at was the lowest two bits contain
a fraction of 1% of the total 10 bit quantity measured and that dropping
them amounts to a fraction of 1% error. It was very late last night when
I was posting and I was not thinking clearly.

Put simply, how are you claiming that 5 and 6 are encoded in this case?

--Darin

I see the error of my ways :-) It was very late and I was tired when I
wrote that.

What I was getting at is the dropping the two LSBs of a 10 bit number
for processing amounts to less than 1% total error.

I claim temporarily insanity for trying to map 1020 distinct
numbers into 256 distinct states :-).

Josh,

If you're allowed to answer this, will the next-gen deinterlacer make us video 480i fans happier, or should we not expect better performance than a Faroudja 23xx or Sil504 kind of solution?

--Andre

AndreYew - I think it is safe to say that our next generation deinterlacer will be a giant-killer (but what else would you expect from ABT)

I see the error of my ways :-) It was very late and I was tired when I
wrote that.
No problem. I'm sure I've done worse. I just figured that trying to code 5 and 6 would make you see it.

--Darin

AndreYew - I think it is safe to say that our next generation deinterlacer will be a giant-killer (but what else would you expect from ABT)
Give Dale and the team my best wishes on getting it completed. We need more good deinterlacing in the world.

Josh,

Thanks! Now I'm really looking forward to seeing what you have at CEDIA.

--Andre

So can we safely say the new VP30 is same product as the HD+ but ,different case with the addition of HDMI?

Not quite.



Here are the main differences between the VP30 and the HD/HD+:

•4 HDMI Inputs and 1 HDMI Output (Audio/Video)

HD and HD+ have 1 DVI input and 1 DVI output

•Precision Video Scaling II – 10-bit scaling, non-linear scaling, enhanced sharpness control

HD and HD+ use Precision Video Scaling (I) which is 9-bit

•12-bit Video Decoder (480p/576p/720p/1080i)

HD and HD+ use 10-bit Video Decoder (VP30 does for 480i and 576i)

•BNC input and output capable of RGBHV or Component

HD and HD+ have HD15 connectors capable of RGBHV or Component

•RGBHV Input is processed and transcoded

HD and HD+ pass through on HD15 input

•Component HD is processed and transcoded

HD and HD+ pass through 720p and 1080i on Component inputs

•Elegant front panel design
•Analog Audio Input

Originally Posted by Josh@dvdo
AndreYew - I think it is safe to say that our next generation deinterlacer will be a giant-killer (but what else would you expect from ABT)

I think it is alittle late and that this is what the VP30 should have been.
Just my opinion.

A little late compared to whom, and what?

Here Stevie.

Sorry, not impressed since the Sil 504 is still used.

What would you have preferred? What's better for 2 grand or less?

I think, compare to the current HD+, the upcoming VP30 has the following differences:

- new (better?) 12bits A/D for analog video input
- new (better?) scaling chip
- 1080i/720p process over component/RGB input
- RGB/component transcoding
- HDMI input/switcher
- analog audio input
- BNC (better?) connecter for RGB/component output

Deinterlace (both SD/HD) performance should be the same as HD+ with the same Sil504 chip.

A minor question: can the BNCs component/RGB output and the HDMI output be used at the same time?

regards,

Li On

Sorry, not impressed since the Sil 504 is still used.
I feel the same way.

At least we can be confident that there'll be a VP40 coming along within a year or so... :)

What would you have preferred?
Something with proper diagonal interpolation for video material and motion adaptive + inverse telecine deinterlacing for 1080i.

Something with proper diagonal interpolation for video material and motion adaptive + inverse telecine deinterlacing for 1080i.


Can all that be done for 2 grand or less? By anyone?

Can all that be done for 2 grand or less? By anyone?
The KDS Leeza already does, excluding the diagonal interpolation, and that's been round a while.

There is no analog signal on the HDMI output.

Are you saying that any analog inputs to the VP30 would not be scaled/passed to the HDMI output?


Thanks

Are you saying that any analog inputs to the VP30 would not be scaled/passed to the HDMI output?
"There is no analog signal on the HDMI output" doesn't imply that, at least to my understanding. His quote doesn't rule out the VP30 digitizing the analog input, and scaling/passing it out digitally through the HDMI output.

Are you saying that any analog inputs to the VP30 would not be scaled/passed to the HDMI output?
No, he's saying that the HDMI jack won't opperate like DVI-I.

Analogue->Digital transcoding has already been confirmed.

Getting rid of jaggies is the first stage, and that's what diagonal interpolation does, but I'd like to see the loss of resolution with moving objects addressed, too, in an ideal world. Motion-compensated deinterlacing would be nice, but probably not practically doable for a typical consumer budget in the next 5 years (I'd be happy to be wrong).

BTW, does anyone know: is Dale Adams one of the original Sil504 designers? I imagine they must have learned quite a bit since that chip came out, and it will be interesting to see what they do next.

--Andre

Getting rid of jaggies is the first stage, and that's what diagonal interpolation does, but I'd like to see the loss of resolution with moving objects addressed, too, in an ideal world. Motion-compensated deinterlacing would be nice, but probably not practically doable for a typical consumer budget in the next 5 years (I'd be happy to be wrong).
MC deinterlacing requires super-computer processing power. Hopefully Cell processors might make it possible in the future, but at the moment it can't be done in consumer grade FPGAs.

BTW, does anyone know: is Dale Adams one of the original Sil504 designers? I imagine they must have learned quite a bit since that chip came out, and it will be interesting to see what they do next.
That's right.

I certainly can't wait.

The Teranex people say they do a full-exhaustive search of every pixel to do their motion compensation: I assume this means they compare every pixel with every pixel in the next field to determine the motion vectors, which seems like it should yield good results, albeit at a very high cost. Figuring that the big Teranexen cost about $80K, and the cost of computing power comes down 10x every 5 years, I came up with my WAG of 5 years before we get a consumer box that can do something comparable.

More WAGing: if Josh says they're killing giants, and giants are companies like Teranex, then maybe we'll get something cool sooner. :)

Thanks for the info on Dale.

(WAG = Wild-A**ed Guess)

--Andre

The Teranex people say they do a full-exhaustive search of every pixel to do their motion compensation: I assume this means they compare every pixel with every pixel in the next field to determine the motion vectors, which seems like it should yield good results, albeit at a very high cost. Figuring that the big Teranexen cost about $80K, and the cost of computing power comes down 10x every 5 years, I came up with my WAG of 5 years before we get a consumer box that can do something comparable.
Probably about that until MC deinterlacing starts appearing, maybe a bit more. HTPC's will probably lead the way for it.

Don't expect to find a sub-$4000 box capable of besting a Teranex for a long, long time, though.

More WAGing: if Josh says they're killing giants, and giants are companies like Teranex, then maybe we'll get something cool sooner. :)
He was subtly refering to the likes of the VXP and the HQV, not stuff like the Teranex.

Thanks Carled for clarifying what I was saying here and with the DV-I and HDMI connection.

More WAGing: if Josh says they're killing giants, and giants are companies like Teranex, then maybe we'll get something cool sooner. :)


I would not bet on a replacement coming out for the VP30 very soon and that is the great thing about our upgrade program, when it does come out you know that we will give you a generous trade-up credit.

I would not bet on a replacement coming out for the VP30 very soon and that is the great thing about our upgrade program, when it does come out you know that we will give you a generous trade-up credit.

If its not coming out very soon and I guess that means soon? :-)

How long is soon? About a year?

For me that would not be a problem....

I prefer to wait and get something that works great than to get some
half-baked processing just so I can say I have it..

Who is using "half-baked processing"?

With your Samsung 1080p and the 10-bit scaling/DACs that we are using on the VP30, the difference between the HD/HD+ and VP30 should be huge (you have to use the analog input to drive 1080p). The SiI504 may not be the endall solution to deinterlacing but I agree with many others on the forum that it is a very good deinterlacer and it does not "suck". The VP30 is a very solid video processor and is by no means half baked.

Josh. Some really really great marketing here. I am glad I am not another processor manufacturer. Silicon Optix, the master marketeer, ought to be jealous of your marketing here. :)

Seriously, I am sure your VP30 will be a substantial improvement over your last generation product. But at least to me, I want a substantial improvement in deinterlacing of video. I want it for 480i and I want it for 1080i. The VP30 relies upon a chip for deinterlacing 480i video that IMNSHO SUCKS. You and other manufacturers can say what you want to keep the hurd from stampeding.

Keep saying what you loyal boys are buying isn't so bad. But Josh. I am not buying that pitch. Come on over to my house. That would be quite a long trip from the West coast for you. You can watch say 480i video deinterlaced and scaled to say 720P on my 54 x 96 and you will clearly see the multitude of artifacts caused by the Sil504. We can use your processor if you like. You say. Mark. It doesn't suck. It's not so bad. Come on. Live with it until we can come up with something better on our own or perhaps using some other company's chip. We are small and we need time to develope something that does not su :) whoops that is better. Come on Josh, if your company is using it, would you say it SUCKS?.. That would be really poor marketing.

Now kiddies. Do not think for an instance that developing something better than the video deinterlacing with the Sil504 is very easy or that it won't take a huge sum of money. Better to say it isn't so bad. But, every scaler company will be forced (at least for 1080i deinterlacing) to use something better than throwing out resolution and giving the consumer the most primitive of deinterlacing. The chips are there that do 1080i deinterlacing (Gennum and Silicon Optics) though most consumers will have no ability to display a 1080p input. Even most with 1080p displays won't be able to input 1080p. Some will.

Now back to 480i video deinterlacing. How good do the new chips do on that? I do not know from first hand experience. The rumor is that the Silicon Optix does better than he Gennum. The rumor is that the Silicon Optix is about he same as the Faroudja with DCDI. That doesn't suck. The Sil504 pure and simple SUCKS. It is good on film. But for video, it SUCKS. The Faroudja with DCDI is better. It comes out of the SUCKS category.

Josh you would say, no, no kiddes. I have to market here. The emperor is really wearing clothes.

Am I happy with DCDI? NO. I want better. But will I get it? Very likely not with the new chips by Gennum and Silicon Optix and clearly not with your new product Josh which still uses something less than the current consumer state of the art. Your statement that there is no point in rehashing the abilities of the current 480i deinterlacers like the Sil504 was better marketing than saying it doesn't suck. You an I could debate foreever and while we might never convinceeach other, your achievements to the state of the art are many and you have my respect.

All i cn say at the end i that the Sil504 is what it is and nothing either of us might say can change that. :)

AndreYew - I think it is safe to say that our next generation deinterlacer will be a giant-killer (but what else would you expect from ABT)

Josh,

Excuse the pun, but is it a "dragon slayer" ?

LOL...

Mark,

Please "scale down" the rhetoric, we are not trying to start a flame war here.

Obviously, no one is happy with the current state of deinterlacing (which has not really changed much in the last few years). DVDO, however, does have a gap in their product line that needs filling - the pro market. Almost every competitor to DVDO has mid-level and higher level products, some of which contain the Sil504 deinterlacer.

The unit is clearly not designed to replace the iScan HD+, but to complement it as a pro version of the iScan HD+. The back-room in DVDO's booth at CES had a demo with some of Dale's work there - so DVDO is obviously on board with your assessment of the current state of deinterlacing. Fact is that this type of design takes many months, if not years, to perfect - particularly when your customer range (read: people like you and me) have developed an "expensive" taste for processing.

Josh and Dale know what we "need", but I'm quite sure we're the target audience for their next gen (I'm hoping the dragonslayer moniker will stick) system, and not necessarily this one.

Keep in mind that the majority of the installed base just wants to see a better picture. The micro-cosmos of this forum doesn't quite represent the majority of scaler users.

I just visited a typical scaler owner yesterday. He has a 65" plasma and doesn't even know he has a scaler (the custom installer put it in for him). He just wants to see a good picture. The VP30, in this case, would actually be better suited for this guy than the iScan HD+.

Hey Mark, tell us how you REALLY feel about the Sil504. :D

After waiting way too long, I have to admit I am really disappointed to hear that my "upgrade" wouldn't be as good as my 3 year old Faroudja NRS when it comes to video deinterlacing. Have to agree with Mark here, hard to understand how that could be. :(

Dan

OT. Ofer. Our hearts go out to Israel today. Just as it wasn't easy for those who lost their homes because of the occupation, it certainly is no less painful or easy to those now losing their homes because of the withdrawal from occupation. For many, there simply is no easy living in your part of the world.

I second that motion. I hope this was the right thing to do, I'm not convinced anything will stop those people from trying to annihilate Israel. Good luck and God bless, Ofer.

Dan