I just bought a Pioneer Elite VSX-74TXVi today at the Grand Opening of a new "Mini Magnolia" in the local Best Buy for 15% off! I'll be replacing the 56TXi I currently use as a pre/pro. I haven't started swapping them out yet but will tonight.

As a side note, I was impressed by the sales staff of the new Mini-Mag, they were very knowledgeable. I asked a couple of detailed questions such as what version of HDMI did it use and they immediately answered 1.1. They also told me the replacement for the 59AVi universal player is coming out in October.

Monty,

Very cool as I said in the other thread.


If you don't mind I'm going to post my questions again for you here, so as to keep them in the same thread.

1) Please do us a favor and use the internal amps for a little test, and give us your impressions. I'd love to hear what you think compared to the 56TXi internal amps. One more thing how big are the capacitors in the 74TXVi? I think the 56TXi had 22,000uF.

2) What kind of Headphone Surround Processing does it have?
Pioneer mentions Headphone Surround but not Dolby...
for the 72TX and 74TXi..
Monty, could you verify what M Code's literature says about this? And perhaps let me know what Pioneer calls this headphone surround processing?

3) Please give us your impressions of how the MCACC works for the subwoofer freq. I think it's called "Standing Wave" adjustment, or something like that!

4) How much does the 74TXVi weigh? I think my 56TXi weighs about 44lbs.

5) How does it sound with music compared to the 56TXi?

Thanks Monty! We are all anxious (well at least I am) to hear your impressions!

Best regards,
Patrick

Avaholic:

I was under the impression that the 56TXi had 27,000 uf for the capacitors. The 54TX, 45TX had 22,000uf x2 for a total of 44,000uf. So, the 56 would have 54,000 uf total.

Am I right?

Mike,

That's right....., you are correct, I was remembering wrong. So I would hope the 74TXVi has at least 2x 27,000uF and hopefully more!

Thanks for the correction!
Patrick

Good...........Love those Elites

Hmm... I am interested in buying the 56txi being replaced, as I am not interested in video switching/processing in AVR at all. Probably I can get a good price...?! :) Is there any major change or improvement in audio from 56txi over 76txvi?

Well the MCACC is downstairs doing it's thing so here's a couple of initial impressions of the 74TXVi.

The 74TXVi appears to only have a pair of 15000 uf capacitors. Which is surprising and disappointing if the 56TXi has a pair of 27000 uf capacitors. Also, on the back of the 74 is states 530w and 690VA, while the 56TXi says 600W and 780VA. The specs do say "Continuous average power output of 140 watts per channel, at 8 ohms, from 20hz to 20,000 hz with no more than 0.09% total harmonic distortion (front). But each channel is rated for 140 watts. I only use the AVR as a pre/pro with 3 Bryston amps so it's not a big deal to me anyway.

The 74 weighs 41.2 lbs as indicated on the box, and the 56 weighs 51.6 lbs as indicated on the box. The difference in weight is appearant.

Another disappointment is that the 74 has a standard lamp grade fixed power cord while the 56 had a beefy heavy duty removable power cord. I also noticed that the 74 uses alot of black screws except on the back panel it uses copper screws, while the 56 used copper screws all over.

Another issue for me is the 12v trigger is a little quirky. Several times after turning it on/off it flashes 12v Trigger Err and won't turn on my Bryston amps.

There are alot more processing modes than the 56 had, but that's expected since the 74 is THX Select 2. PLIIx Game, THX Music, SCi-FI, Musical, Drama, PhonesSurround, etc.

Overall the sound is clean but I did notice some hiss through the speakers that wasn't there before. It's hard to compare the SQ of the 74 to the 56 cause I only use them as pre/pro's and I'm used to hearing my M&K's driven by Bryston's. I used to use the 56 to drive the M&K's and they sounded good, but the Bryston made them sound better since they're relatively hard to drive and power hungry. I'm going to check all my connections and make sure nothings loose and no power cords are next to connectors. I haven't checked out the professional MCACC yet, but the standard MCACC seems to set the channel levels and speaker distance much faster than the 56 did. The 74 adds standing wave correction and it automatically checks/corrects for reverb and EQ Pro in the standard MCACC whereas the 56 seperated those into the Professional MCACC.

I still need to read the manual and tinker around with it but those were some of my first impressions. While they may negative, keep in mind that negatives are usually the first to stand out at you. The exterior is nice looking, typical Elite finish. The OSD is better looking, you can adjust it''s position on the screen and it's much more robust. It's similar to the 56 TXi but doesn't have the Commadore 64 computer look as bad. The remote is smaller and appears busier. I always liked the 56's remote and programmed it to control everything even my dimmer lights. I liked it better than some of the expensive aftermarket remotes. The MCACC microphone is nicer (LOL) and doesn't need that stupid piece of foam to sit straight.

By the way, the operating instructions are universal and they mention a VSX-74TXVi-S and VSX-72TXV-S as well as the VSX-74TXVi and VSX-72TXV. Anyone know what the "S" stands for or difference is? I couldn't find anything in the manual yet.

Anyone know what the "S" stands for or difference is?
Silver ?

The 74TXVi appears to only have a pair of 15000 uf capacitors. Which is surprising and disappointing if the 56TXi has a pair of 27000 uf capacitors. Also, on the back of the 74 is states 530w and 690VA, while the 56TXi says 600W and 780VA.

The 74 weighs 41.2 lbs as indicated on the box, and the 56 weighs 51.6 lbs as indicated on the box. The difference in weight is appearant.

Another disappointment is that the 74 has a standard lamp grade fixed power cord while the 56 had a beefy heavy duty removable power cord..

These points you made really are key for those thinking about using the internal amps of 74TXVi. Regardless of what the 140w per channel says, those cap. numbers, power supply numbers (and to a lesser extent the power cord) suggest that the 56TXi will be able to do a better job of supplying power to all speakers. Obviously not a problem for you Monty, but this is indeed important news for many!
Thanks for sharing it so quickly!

P.S. I may have to think about going with the Denon 4806 as I'm still probably going to get rid of my seperate 3 channel amp.

Best Regards,
Patrick

The remote is smaller and appears busier.

And more difficult to use. I hate remotes with small buttons.

Bob

I finished setting it up and if you're familiar with current Pioneers/Elite's there won't be any surprises. The MCACC seems like it does it's thing faster. The 56 seemed to take forever to set the channel levels and speaker distances. The 74 does that plus phase correction, standing wave, reverb, and Auto EQ in the same time or less than it took the 56 to just do level/distance, plus it does those automatically without having to go through the Professional menu.

The addition of the standing wave control makes a huge difference and is immediately appearant. I played a techno CD that has alot of repetitive bass around 30-35 hz and the bass was noticeably faster, punchier, and less boomy and muddy compared to the 56. This improvement in itself is almost worth the cost of the upgrade it is that dramatic.

The OSD is better and is easier to use too. As with the previous MCACC version, it still insists on initially setting all the speakers to large, but navigating to manual speaker settings is alot easier and more straighforward.

Curiously, there are a couple of places in the manual where a strip of paper is glued over the page. This is found in the "furnished parts" and "what's in the box" sections. I tried peeling it off to see what was underneath it, but it pulls the paper off too so I can't tell. I wonder if it was the XM antenna? Obviously they decided to exclude something at the last minute after the manual was printed...

I got the 12v trigger thing figured out. After I set all the inputs, even the one's I don't use to turn on the 12v trigger, no more problems. Before if I switched to an input that didn't have the 12v turned on and then switched to a input with the 12v turned on, it would error...

The 74TXVi appears to only have a pair of 15000 uf capacitors. Which is surprising and disappointing if the 56TXi has a pair of 27000 uf capacitors. Also, on the back of the 74 is states 530w and 690VA, while the 56TXi says 600W and 780VA.

This was my concern when I read that MSRP had dropped by $200.

It seems silly to raise the power rating and reduce the quality of components used but the marketers may have simply taken over. If these numbers are correct, I would have serious reservations about using this with any speakers rated at less than 8 ohms in a multi-channel setup.

It also sounds like the build quality has been diminished (lower weight, painted screws, captive power cord) from the 56TXi. Makes one wonder what other less obvious corners have been cut.

I was pretty much sold on tyhe 79TXVi as a replacement to my 56TXi but I may rethink this and give the Denon 4306 another look.

Bob

It seems silly to raise the power rating and reduce the quality of components used but the marketers may have simply taken over. If these numbers are correct, I would have serious reservations about using this with any speakers rated at less than 8 ohms in a multi-channel setup.

Being somebody who is extremely new to highend audio (meaning anything better than HTiB), what would the general opinion be of driving two Paradigm Studio 40s (fronts), two Paradigm Studio 20s (rear), a Paradigm Studio CC470 (center) and a SVS PB12-plus/2 subwoofer off of this receiver? I really like the HDMI inputs, as well as the transcoding to HDMI. I also don't have a lot of money for a higher end receiver ($1,500, the MSRP of this guy was pretty much my budget for audio/video processing), so I was hoping this would work (at least until it's time to upgrade something a year or two down the road).

Paradigm's website says that impedence is "compatible with 8 ohms," but I don't know what that means.

Thoughts?

CW

These points you made really are key for those thinking about using the internal amps of 74TXVi. Regardless of what the 140w per channel says, those cap. numbers, power supply numbers (and to a lesser extent the power cord) suggest that the 56TXi will be able to do a better job of supplying power to all speakers. Obviously not a problem for you Monty, but this is indeed important news for many!
Thanks for sharing it so quickly!

P.S. I may have to think about going with the Denon 4806 as I'm still probably going to get rid of my seperate 3 channel amp.

Best Regards,
Patrick
I agree 100%....
Good info Monty, thx.
I have the 56 and was planning to check out the 74 but not if it's of a lesser bulid, which the reduced weight alone would indicate.

dc

This was my concern when I read that MSRP had dropped by $200.

It seems silly to raise the power rating and reduce the quality of components used but the marketers may have simply taken over. If these numbers are correct, I would have serious reservations about using this with any speakers rated at less than 8 ohms in a multi-channel setup.

It also sounds like the build quality has been diminished (lower weight, painted screws, captive power cord) from the 56TXi. Makes one wonder what other less obvious corners have been cut.

I was pretty much sold on tyhe 79TXVi as a replacement to my 56TXi but I may rethink this and give the Denon 4306 another look.

Bob

Not good news...
This is the same thing Yamaha did with the RX-V2500 over the 2400..
Power went up and the price went down..
Specs improvements look good on paper...
But what about the real world..

The addition of the standing wave control makes a huge difference and is immediately appearant. I played a techno CD that has alot of repetitive bass around 30-35 hz and it was the bass was noticeably faster, punchier, and less boomy and muddy compared to the 56. This improvement in itself is almost worth the cost of the upgrade it is that dramatic.

That is indeed good news!

Two questions Monty, does the 74TXVi still have the "up-sampling" feature for CD playback like the 56TXi?
Also, just to confirm the Headphone surround mode is callled "PhonesSurround"?

P.S. What about the "hissing" you were hearing. Is it really worse than the 56TXi?

Thanks again for the great info here!!!! :cool:

Patrick

M Code-

I have had this ominous feeling about corner-cutting since I saw the reduction in price. I am pretty sure I commented on it but i was hopeful they had achieved the lower price point through the use of fully-amortized technologies trickling down from the 59TXi and production efficiencies.

Unfortunately, it appears that my concerns were real and I am having difficulty imagining the 74TXvi being able to provide much headroom with 15,000 uf caps. Combined with what sounds like a smaller transformer, this receiver is probably not a very good match for even 6 ohm speakers (unless they are very stable in the load they present).

Bob

Monty-

Can you comment on the quality of the binding posts? Did you confirm the capacitors by visual inspection?


Thanks for the great info.

Bob

Good Points Bob.

I am now considering keeping my 3-channel amp myself, with the way Monty describes how well this Standing Wave function of the MCACC works. It sounds really interesting. It may even replace the need for the Velo SMS-1 external EQ I was thinking of getting!

I'm affraid there is no free lunch. I too was hoping for the best. But I'm becoming more and more convinced that using AVR's as a preamp is a really viable option, at least for the front 3 channels where you really need the most power!

Also, just to confirm the Headphone surround mode is callled "PhonesSurround"?

Patrick-

The Phones Surround mode is available on the 59TXi. Unless it is night-and-day better, it strikes me as Pioneer's answer to Denonlink as a proprietary technology instead of the established standard.

Bob

Patrick-

The Phones Surround mode is available on the 59TXi. Unless it is night-and-day better, it strikes me as Pioneer's answer to Denonlink as a proprietary technology instead of the established standard.

I'm cool with that. I would not be using headphones for movie watching that much, I'm just hoping for something that enhances the movie watching experience for the times when I ocassionally watch a movie using headphones.

BR,
Patrick

It appears the corrections (stickers covering up certain sections) to the manual are related to iPod funtionality. No big deal to me. Why someone would use an inferior source such as an iPod/mp3 for a $1500 msrp receiver is another discussion...but then again SACD/DVD-A appears to be dead unfortunately.

Anyway a couple of clarifications. The manual states the 74 weighs in at 35.3 lbs versus the 56's 44.8 lbs according to it's manual. Even the 74's manual is lighter, at 86 pages versus the 54's 102 pages....

As for upsampling, yes it's the same as the 56 but without all the fine print about downsampling certain 96khz sources.

All references to headphones mention "PhonesSurround". No mention of Dolby.

My impression right now is that the sound processing is improved and cleaner, more funtionality/geegaws, XM Radio and iPod compatibilities, ALOT more indicators (i.e. the display shows when the subwoofer is actually receiving a signal in addition to it simply being illuminated for x.1 sources), improved MCACC (noticeably, and the 56 was pretty good too) with the phase control, standing wave, etc, 3 video component in, HDMI switching/conversion, 3 zones, etc at the expense of potentially compromised power (if my assessment of the caps are correct and according to what's printed on the back of the receiver, but it's still THX Select 2 certified and 6 ohm compatible) and maybe cheaper construction (fewer copper screws, a little more plastic. I didn't remove the cover I just looked through it along with a flashlight.

A cool feature I was unaware of is that besides having more MCACC memory settings (frequency adjustments for the same listening position), it also allows you to have settings for multiple seating positions, such as if you normally listen on the couch but play video games sitting on the floor closer to the monitor.

I'm excited about having XM, but the antenna is sold seperately. I have XM in my truck and I think a second receiver is only $6.95 more per month.

Good Points Bob.

I am now considering keeping my 3-channel amp myself, with the way Monty describes how well this Standing Wave function of the MCACC works. It sounds really interesting. I'm affraid there is no free lunch. I too was hoping for the best. But I'm becoming more and more convinced that using AVR's as a preamp is a really viable option, at least for the front 3 channels where you really need it!

Patrick-

I now think that the reduced price and corner-cutting on power components may be an acknowledgement by Pioneer that many of these units are used as pre/pros.

Two questions come to mind: 1) Is Pioneer considering a "76TXvi" that is basically this unit with a better power system priced between the 74TXvi and 79TXvi; and 2) would Pioneer consider selling separate power amps designed to be used with their receivers?

The latter seems unlikely but some might buy into a plug-and-play 3-channel amp for their fronts that is essentially gain-matched to the receiver. The former makes sense considering the veritable desert between the 74TXvi and the 79TXvi when it is released. Even if the 79TXvi is reduced in price by a $1000, there is room for another receiver to compete against Denon's offerings in the premium receiver category.

Bob

Excellent Monty! You are a wealth of information!

Regarding the Standing wave control, does it say how it works in the manual? Is there a way to view what its settings are on the OSD? Or even manually change them like the normal MCACC?

About the Professional MCACC calibration, does it have the X-Curve adjustment?

Also, what happened with the hissing you were hearing?

Thanks,
Patrick

i.e. the display shows when the subwoofer is actually receiving a signal in addition to it simply being illuminated for x.1 sources
I recall my 54TX having that feature. The light for LFE would flash when a low frequency sound was being played. The 56TXi should have done the same thing.

Answers to questions posted :

I straightened up the connector routing and the hiss went away, the 74 is as dead silent as the 56. I figured that was it as I was in a rush to get it hooked up... like a kid on Christmas morning...

The binding posts are the same as the 56. Good quality and capable of accepting at least 12 guage.

I looked at the capacitors through the case, didn't remove it, using a flashlight to illuminate. The 71v and 15000 was in plain site and compared side to side with the 56 they were physically smaller.

As for headphone it says you can enjoy the same "sound effects" as using the speakers.

I was told, and the way the manual appears to be universal for Elites, this 74 is the top new Elite and the 59TXi is not being replaced.

I thought about the concept of Pioneer designing the new Elites to be pre/pro's but I've got to think those of us who do are the minority.

With regards to the Sub indicator lighting up to indicate actual output, you're right the 56 did too now that I think about it, but it was just a little dot next to the SW whereas the 74 has a larger indicator that stand out more, it looks like (((SW))).

I'll have4 to check the manual for more standing wave control details...

Monty-

Thanks for the great information. I have a feeling that they must have re-oriented the boards or something and that they are using larger caps. I just can't imagine Pioneer living so close to the edge using smaller caps while increasing the power rating. Someone needs to get this unit on a test bench soon.

I will be surprised if Pioneer does not introduce a new flagship in January. I think that the reason for it not being included in this manual is that Pioneer does not want to provide any information about it at this point and that it will likely require its own manual at any rate. As an aside, if this is the new top-of-the-line receiver, then Pioneer has put its flagship on a 30 pound diet.

High-end flagship receivers is not a market you jump into and out of. You build your reputation over time and stay the course. Pioneer seems to do pretty well in this market.

Bob

Answers to questions posted :

I straightened up the connector routing and the hiss went away, the 74 is as dead silent as the 56. I figured that was it as I was in a rush to get it hooked up... like a kid on Christmas morning...

The binding posts are the same as the 56. Good quality and capable of accepting at least 12 guage.

I looked at the capacitors through the case, didn't remove it, using a flashlight to illuminate. The 71v and 15000 was in plain site and compared side to side with the 56 they were physically smaller.

As for headphone it says you can enjoy the same "sound effects" as using the speakers.

I was told, and the way the manual appears to be universal for Elites, this 74 is the top new Elite and the 59TXi is not being replaced.

I thought about the concept of Pioneer designing the new Elites to be pre/pro's but I've got to think those of us who do are the minority.

With regards to the Sub indicator lighting up to indicate actual output, you're right the 56 did too now that I think about it, but it was just a little dot next to the SW whereas the 74 has a larger indicator that stand out more, it looks like (((SW))).

I'll have4 to check the manual for more standing wave control details...
Good to hear the 74 is as quite as the 56!
And good to hear Pioneer keeps making improvements to MCACC!

So even if the 74 doesn't have the same build quaility as the 56, it sounds as though it should make a killer pre/pro!

dc

I'll have4 to check the manual for more standing wave control details...
Monty-

Cool, could you also tell us if it has the X-Curve function in the Professional MCACC calibration like the 59TXi does?


Bob,

I agree about the flagship thoughts. However, they may just be using the 74TXVi as a "stop-gap" until a year or two down the road, and then make it's replacement the new flagship with all the "bells and whistles" and POWER. Until then they may just keep the 59TXi around for those who want the extra power, etc...... Though they would probably lose quite a bit of sales to Denon with their offerings.

I also agree that they may be seeing the trend of people using AVR's as pre/pro's.

BR,
Patrick

So there is a iPod socket on the 74?

Good to hear the 74 is as quite as the 56!
And good to hear Pioneer keeps making improvements to MCACC!

So even if the 74 doesn't have the same build quaility as the 56, it sounds as though it should make a killer pre/pro!

It does sound like this is going to be a great pre/pro which is why I wonder id Pioneer has aspirations in the separates market. But as Monty points out, the number of people who use a receiver as a pre/pro is probably a small fraction of those looking to use its internal amps to drive their speakers.

The 74TXvi has lost almost 23% of the mass of its predecessor. That could be due to a lower-quality build of the chassis but the lowering of the power transformer rating is worrisome. I just worry that many people will buy this unit based on the solid performance of the 56TX only to find that it is less capable in the power department. The THX certification should mean something, I guess, but I sure wish it weighed a bit more. Maybe they switched to digital amps and just aren't telling anyone. :)

Bob

Monty

the caps may be smaller but is the power transformer the same or at least similar in size?

my bryston amp has only 22400 uF capacitance per channel

also the denon 3805 has a pair of 15000uF caps too

I agree about the flagship thoughts. However, they may just be using the 74TXVi as a "stop-gap" until a year or two down the road, and then make it's replacement the new flagship with all the "bells and whistles" and POWER. Until then they may just keep the 59TXi around for those who want the extra power, etc...... Though they would probably lose quite a bit of sales to Denon with their offerings.

That would be risky in my estimation. If it were just Denon, it would be a problem, but without HDMI, their "flagship" appears like a row boat. I suspect January will bring something new even if not much more than a revised 59TXi with HDMi. But once you start adding connectors, I can imagine they would want to rework much more. I just hope that this unit provides something near its rated power or people will seek out other solutions.

Now I need to audition this and the Denon 4306 and decide what to do for amplification if I decide I want some Dynaudio speakers. Well, I need to do that anyway.

Bob

X-curve appears to only be set manually, and is not applied to THX modes due to THX's re-equalization aleady doing the same thing.

The iPod interface is merely a socket (looks like a large S-video connector with more prongs)on the back panel requiring a conversion cable, sold seperately of course. Based upon the glued on masking paper in the manual I am guessing that they were going to include the cable but decided to sell it seperately after the manual was printed.

I couldn't easily see the power transfomer to tell if it was the same as the 56 or not. Sorry.

The section on the standing wave control doesn't really go into much detail as to how it works. It gives a brief description of what a standing wave is, resulting in a boomy sound and then says it uses filters to reduce the effect of overly resonant sounds in your listening area. You can customize the filters for each MCACC preset:

Filter Channel: select the channel you want to apply the filters to: Main (L/R), Center, or Subwoofer.

Trim: Subwoofer only. Adjust the sub channel level to compensate for the difference in output post-filter.

f/Q/ATT: these are the filter parameters where f represents frequency you will be targeting and Q is the bandwidth (the higher the Q, the narrower the bandwidth, or range) of the attenuation (ATT, the amount of reduction to the targeted freuency).

Again, while the decrease in weight and appearant capacitance is disappointing, the sound quality, especially in terms of bass is immediately noticeable. Additionally, the front display is alot more informative and I beleive that overall the interfaces (front and OSD) are more intuative and robust. Althoug the remote is smaller and has more/smaller buttons it seems easier to use ecuase you cna directly access certian functions directly without having to go through a menu. one neat thing is a "status" button which shows displays an OSD which indicates what the audio source and format is, what the video source is, what MCACC is being used etc.

I'm pleased with the 74 overall. Whiel it's not revolutionary compared to the 56, it is evolutionary and the improvements in MCACC as related to bass is noticeable. Between what I can probably sell my 56 for on eBay or Audiogon (~$700-$800 I'm guessing )and what I got the 74 for ($200 off), it will probably be about a $500 upgrade.

also the denon 3805 has a pair of 15000uF caps too

Which is probably the reason I felt that the 3805 didn't handle dynamics as well as the Pioneer 56TXi. In all honesty, the caps are a poor substitute for a very capable transformer but big caps will compensate most of the time.

Don't most Brystons use an independent toroidal transformer per channel? The caps are primarily there for there ability to discharge quickly to deal with transients.

Bob

Don't most Brystons use an independent toroidal transformer per channel? The caps are primarily there for there ability to discharge quickly to deal with transients.

Bob


YES!

Monty-

Thanks again for the wealth of information. I have been anxious to get some concrete information for a while and you have provided a lot for all of us to consider.

The improvements in MCACC and the standing wave control/filters sound like major improvements. There really is a lot to like about this receiver from what you say.

I am not even sure why I am so disappointed about the caps and transformer since most all the new speakers I have been considering lately seem to be 4 ohm and would require additional amplification anyway.

I'd like to tell you to go and enjoy your new toy but we have many questions still and you are the lucky guy with the answers. :)

Bob

Monty,

Regarding bass management, does the 74 have separate x-overs for each speaker pair that allows for independant adjustments for fronts, center, & surrounds, or is it the same x-over for all speakers?

If Pioneer included separate x-overs, that would be a nice improvement over current models.

ss9001

X-curve appears to only be set manually, and is not applied to THX modes due to THX's re-equalization aleady doing the same thing.
Monty-

Does that mean you just have to go into the Professional calibration menu and "run it"? Or do you physically have to set each freq. yourself?


Between what I can probably sell my 56 for on eBay or Audiogon (~$700-$800 I'm guessing )and what I got the 74 for ($200 off), it will probably be about a $500 upgrade.
I think this is exactly what I'm going to do, and keep my 3 channel HT-3 Odyssey amp for the LCR channels. :cool:

Thanks Monty,
Patrick

Nope, one crossover for all speakers, same as the 56. One thing I will say is that this receiver seems to be aligned with THX more than ever. "THX recommends" is repeated everywhere. I'm a fan of THX and my speakers and Bryston amps are THX certified so it doens't bother me, I just noticed it seemed to be more prevelent than in the 56's manual.

Another new setup parameter I just noticed in the OSD/manual allows you to select the distance between your 2 rear surrounds. It has 3 preset point: 0-1 foot apart, 1-4 feet apart, and 4 or more feet apart. As you probably know THX recommends that the rear surrounds be side by side as close together as possible while Dolby recommends that they be spread farther apart behind the listening area. I guess the 74 has some kind of processing to compensate for different rear surround speaker positions for THX modes.

The X-curve is simply one graphic that applies one of 6 (plus off) preset cuts to the 2kHZ+ frequency range and is applied to all speakers. -3.0 db/octave is the maximum cut. It looks similar to the graphic that is displayed for the 56 when you go to manually set the eq for a particular speake and frequency but is broader in application. The manual provides suggested X-curve cuts by room size:

<400 sq ft = -0.5db
<550 = -1
<650 = -1.5
<800 = 2
<2200 = -2.5
<12000 = -3

Don't most Brystons use an independent toroidal transformer per channel? The caps are primarily there for there ability to discharge quickly to deal with transients.

yes.......hence my view that when it comes to power it's the tranformer that is most important......both the 56txi and the 3805 have a pretty hefty tranformer

yes.......hence my view that when it comes to power it's the tranformer that is most important......both the 56txi and the 3805 have a pretty hefty tranformer

The issue is whether or not the transformer in the 74TXvi is as capable as that in the 56TXi. If the transformer is smaller in the 74TXvi, it seems to me that the need for larger caps is all the greaters. Unfortunately, the weight and power ratings suggest a smaller transformer and Monty has observed smaller caps.

Hence, I am concerned about performance.

Bob

Monty-

I will be surprised if Pioneer does not introduce a new flagship in January. I think that the reason for it not being included in this manual is that Pioneer does not want to provide any information about it at this point and that it will likely require its own manual at any rate. As an aside, if this is the new top-of-the-line receiver, then Pioneer has put its flagship on a 30 pound diet.

High-end flagship receivers is not a market you jump into and out of. You build your reputation over time and stay the course. Pioneer seems to do pretty well in this market.

Bob

The flagship replacement AVR will be shown @ WCES 2006 January in Las Vegas..

Just noticed a few things:

The 74 will overlay PLIIx over DTS whereas the 56 wouldn't for those of you who felt that was a shortcoming. Again reaffirming my impression that the 74 has improved sound processing and chip-based features but maybe with some small compromises in power. The front display has so many indicators it's like a Christmas tree, especially with the bright blue lights(which seems to becoming more common) for i.Link, etc.

I also noticed something that the 74 doesn't do that the 56 did. I use a 59AVi universal player connected via i.Link and if you pressed play on the 59AVi the input on the 56 would automatically change to the i.Link connected 59AVi. With the 74 it doesn't automatically do this. This is probably due to the fact that on the 56 i.Link had priority over all the other inputs and on the 74 HDMI has priority.

There is a button on front panel behind the door that allows you to switch the speakers on or off but does not effect the pre-out terminals including the subwoofer. There was some earlier speculation that Pioneer considered thsoe of us who use the receiver as a pre/pro in it's design. This may be an indication of that. Even though I don't use any of the inboard amps and no speakers are connected directly to the receiver, when I turned the speakers to off my Monster Power Center showed an increase in voltage by about 1/2 volt. I switched back and forth and the results were repeatable so I don't think it was caused by incoming voltage fluctuations, plus I have an AVS2000 voltage stabilizer infront of the Powercenter (the 3 Brystons are directly connected to a pair of dedicated 20 amp outlets).

The remote for the 74 is NOT backlit, while the 56 remotes is. This bothers me as much as anything....

The issue is whether or not the transformer in the 74TXvi is as capable as that in the 56TXi. If the transformer is smaller in the 74TXvi, it seems to me that the need for larger caps is all the greaters. Unfortunately, the weight and power ratings suggest a smaller transformer and Monty has observed smaller caps.

Hence, I am concerned about performance.

Bob

A smaller transformer indicates thinner wired core, which simply means it will heat up and saturate more easily... It can still output even higher voltage rails but it will have less current and heat up much quicker....
Once it is hot... power/current will drop sharply..

Regarding the smaller caps, again less current storage especially for low frequencies... We need to read their specs more closely to better understand How they are rating power? Most likely rated with only 2 channels driven..
Still should have adequate output power for peaks but continuous power will suffer..

A smaller transformer indicates thinner wired core, which simply means it will heat up and saturate more easily... It can still output even higher voltage rails but it will have less current and heat up much quicker....

M Code-

This is my point. It seems that Pioneer took a fairly competent design and reduced its ability in their new design. If the windings are smaller, I suspect that the current limits may be a problem for driving speakers that were not much of a challenge for the 56. Coupled with smaller caps, I can imagine that there is some compression in dynamics.

Of course, this is the perfect opportunity for you to mention how HK's design fares much better in this regard. :)

I am curious how you think Pioneer's approach to standing wave reduction compares to what HK did with the 635 last year.

Bob

Does any of this talk about smaller caps/smaller transformer/smaller windings affect the use of the 74TXVi as a preprocessor only? I think I will be using one of these as a prepro, (driving an external amp), would the changes being discussed here affect the 74TXVi's sound quality when used as a prepro only?

Quote:
The 74TXVi appears to only have a pair of 15000 uf capacitors. Which is surprising and disappointing if the 56TXi has a pair of 27000 uf capacitors. Also, on the back of the 74 is states 530w and 690VA, while the 56TXi says 600W and 780VA.



This was my concern when I read that MSRP had dropped by $200.

It seems silly to raise the power rating and reduce the quality of components used but the marketers may have simply taken over. If these numbers are correct, I would have serious reservations about using this with any speakers rated at less than 8 ohms in a multi-channel setup.

It also sounds like the build quality has been diminished (lower weight, painted screws, captive power cord) from the 56TXi. Makes one wonder what other less obvious corners have been cut.

I was pretty much sold on tyhe 79TXVi as a replacement to my 56TXi but I may rethink this and give the Denon 4306 another look.



that seems to be it in a nutshell....so they increased processing capabilities and decreased transformer size and capacitance?

Surprise


It does sound like this is going to be a great pre/pro which is why I wonder id Pioneer has aspirations in the separates market. But as Monty points out, the number of people who use a receiver as a pre/pro is probably a small fraction of those looking to use its internal amps to drive their speakers.


It will be a great pre-pro, if it has a great pre-out section (ie: op amps, etc)
but , yes , very few outside of a small percentage of Ht hobbyists use a receiver as a pre-pro, and Pioneer doesn't gear the product for that small a segment of users.

that seems to be it in a nutshell....so they increased processing capabilities and decreased transformer size and capacitance?

Surprise




It will be a great pre-pro, if it has a great pre-out section (ie: op amps, etc)
but , yes , very few outside of a small percentage of Ht hobbyists use a receiver as a pre-pro, and Pioneer doesn't gear the product for that small a segment of users.
Maybe Monty could pop the cover on the 74 & 56 and check the transformers, and while he's at it compare the op amps :) maybe

dc

Did pioneer improve on the tv output OSD? Is it only used for set up once again? Have you tried HDMI upconversion from other video inputs, that is, if you are using HDMI? TIA

Does any of this talk about smaller caps/smaller transformer/smaller windings affect the use of the 74TXVi as a preprocessor only? I think I will be using one of these as a prepro, (driving an external amp), would the changes being discussed here affect the 74TXVi's sound quality when used as a prepro only?

Since you will not be using the onboard amps, none of these issues will affect you.

This design may be very good in all but the most demanding scenes or music passages but at this price point, people like to see a balanced approach to component design (well, I do at least). As M Code says, we won't know the real story on power until this unit is run through its paces on a test bench.

Bob

Jake-

I think this receiver will likely have good performance for its class. It just seems like the result of a project run by marketing instead of engineering. The improvements in the setup sound like they may actually be getting us closer to the automated nirvana that has eluded us so far. But the power supply and caps sound wimpy compared to their predecessor.

Since it looks like I will be using it as a pre/pro and for zone 2, it bugs me more than being a dealbreaker. But it will make me take a closer look at Denon's offerings.

Maybe I'll just buy a lottery ticket and, if I win, I will be able to do a proper separates system all at once.

Bob

Hey Guys,

I just "bit the bullet", and ordered the 74TXVi. I decided to keep my HT-3 Odyssey amp for the front channels. I'll be selling the 56TXi. If it turns out the Standing Wave control is that good, I may not need to drop $500-$600 on the new Velodyne SMS-1 EQ for my sub. If that's the case I will be "ahead of the game" ;)

Monty, do you have a SPL meter and test tones to see how much the Standing Wave control is actually helping with the lower freq.?

Thanks again,
Patrick

I currently have a Denon 3802 driving a Def Tech 2006tl system. My HT room is 12' deep by 14' wide (open on right side). The 74txvi is my choice to replace the 3802 as the Denon 4306 is just out of my price range. Plus the fact that Denon dealers hardly ever discount their products.

I will be using the 74txvi onboard amps and I'm hoping to see at least somewhat of an increase in power over the 3802. I hope this isn't a stupid question but can you bridge 6 channels to 3 and use a 2 channel amp for the surrounds? Also does the 74txvi have the ability to play digital inputs to zone 2 (the 3802 is just analog)?

Unlike Monty who is going from a 56txi to the 74txvi, my upgrade will be more significant. I demoed the 56txi before and was really impressed with it over the Denon 3805. So I guess with the size of my room the 74txvi will be a great choice.
Also thanks to Monty for his thoughts on the 74txvi.

Thanks, Bill

So has anyone else spotted a 74 anywhere? Does Monty have the only one in captivity? :)

I currently have an older 49TX flagship Elite and have the bug to try something a little newer...

I'm not in a very large room so all the power the 49 has is probably over kill for me. Would I be crazy to consider the 74?

The OSD, while improved, is still only used for setup like the 56.

I really can't pop opent he 74 now, sorry. All of my stuff is rack mounted in a Mid Atlantic Slim 5 and it would take me a couple of hours to get it out and disconnect everything.

I loaned my SPL meter and AVIA/DVE disks to a friend at work, he's bringing it in on Monday. I was planning on getting the Velodyne EQ too, but I also think it may not be necessary now. The standing wave corrects the speakers in 3 groups: Main (which is front left and right), center, and subwoofer. For each group there are 3 frequencies that can be corrected, they are preset by the MCACC but the frequencies, bandwidth, and attentuation can be adjusted manually for each group independently. Anyone know how this compares to what the Velodyne EQ does? For my room it set the Mains and Center corrections at 101hz, 177hz, and 220hz. For the subs it was 68hz, 101hz, and 220hz.


I thought I had it figured out but when my wife turned on my equipment this morning she got the 12v Trigger Error again and the 74 wouldn't turn my Brystons on. This never happened with the 56. I'm thinking it's a matter of the power up sequence.

M Code-

This is my point. It seems that Pioneer took a fairly competent design and reduced its ability in their new design. If the windings are smaller, I suspect that the current limits may be a problem for driving speakers that were not much of a challenge for the 56. Coupled with smaller caps, I can imagine that there is some compression in dynamics.

Of course, this is the perfect opportunity for you to mention how HK's design fares much better in this regard. :)

I am curious how you think Pioneer's approach to standing wave reduction compares to what HK did with the 635 last year.

Bob

There are no free rides in building AVRs...
Costs are increasing significantly..
Oil pricing up 100% drives plastic parts up..
Copper is up 75% drives transformer windings up...
Aluminum is up 65% drives heat sinks up..
Steel is up 60% making chassis cost more..
Malaysia labor costs.. inflation..

Everything else being equal building an AVR in 2005 is about 15% more expensive then building an AVR in 2004....
So if the rated power is up (amp is still analog) some big chunks were cut out inside.. When the marketing staff wrote... created... the specs..
They just used a little more smoke/mirrors........ :rolleyes:

Pioneer is well aware of the low frequency issues and their new standing wave software addresses this.. How well it works remains to be validated.. But this is likely what the additional DSP sharc chip is for...

I bought the 56TXi nearly a year ago and always considered it a transitional piece as what I really wanted was HDMI switching for both audio and video. For years I was a devout Denon enthusiast having owned an old Pro Logic only AVR 3000 replaced 5 or 6 years ago by an aging Dolby Digital/DTS AVR 3300 (Still in service in the living room.) My interest in the Pioneer Elite series over Denon was influenced by a review several years ago by David Ranada in "Sound & Vision" where David touted the virtues of I-Link and its ability to digitally play DVD Audio AND SA-CD with bass management as well as speaker distance compensation. The Denon Link on the other hand is, I believe, still SA-CD deficient. I was intrigued by David's review of Pioneer's I-Link equipped receiver because in his summation he listed numerous "pros" and no "cons". I had never seen a Ranada review with no negative comments.

Anyway, for my dedicated front projector basement theater, I jumped ship and went with the 56TXi and the Elite 59AVi DVD player. No regrets, other than the lack of HDMI switching. DVD Audio and SA-CD via I-Link are everything I'd hoped for and HDMI video switching is accommodated with a Gefen 2X1 HDMI switch. Switching sources is controlled with macros programed into a Universal remote to switch both the receiver input and HDMI video simultaneously. Nonetheless the 74 would be a more elegant solution than having to use a fairly expensive Gefen switch. Factor in some of the other features of the 74 (XM radio in particular) and it sounded like a real winner. The only missing element would be the ability to decode DD+ and DTS HD. Even though it is somewhat absurd to equate a receiver's weight with sound quality its hard to get over the fact that the 74 weighs so much less than the 56. There's something about a beefy transformer that just make us feel good. The 74 needs to find its way to the test bench and the sooner the better. For now I'll stick with the 56 and sit on the sidelines and wait.

I read a post in a different thread that the new Elites are to have HD Radio as well as XM Radio capabilities on board (like the Yamaha 4600). Can anyone confirm whether this is true? Thanks.

Not he greatest picture, but I was in a hurry yesterday to get them swapped out and the 74 setup.

BTW if anyone wants a mint condition 56TXi, it's for sale on ebay...
item=5798775158

Everything else being equal building an AVR in 2005 is about 15% more expensive then building an AVR in 2004....
So if the rated power is up (amp is still analog) some big chunks were cut out inside..

M Code-

I did not realize that manufacturing costs had risen so sharply over the past year. I guess we can expect other manufacturers to follow this course or else raise prices then. I am probably in the minority who would prefer to pay a bit more to maintain build quality. I do hope someone gets this unit on a bench so we can see what the actual power performance compared to the power ratings.

Regarding the standing wave control, what I was asking is if Pioneer's approach is similar to the one HK employed in the 635. Monty described the filters earlier:

The section on the standing wave control doesn't really go into much detail as to how it works. It gives a brief description of what a standing wave is, resulting in a boomy sound and then says it uses filters to reduce the effect of overly resonant sounds in your listening area. You can customize the filters for each MCACC preset:

Filter Channel: select the channel you want to apply the filters to: Main (L/R), Center, or Subwoofer.

Trim: Subwoofer only. Adjust the sub channel level to compensate for the difference in output post-filter.

f/Q/ATT: these are the filter parameters where f represents frequency you will be targeting and Q is the bandwidth (the higher the Q, the narrower the bandwidth, or range) of the attenuation (ATT, the amount of reduction to the targeted freuency).

Bob

Does the 74 accept digitial audio input via HDMI? Can I play back DVD-Audio discs via HDMI with my Denon 3910 player as the source (the Denon 3910 does send DVD-Audio over HDMI, the question is will the Pioneer 74 accept it).

Yes it'll pass DVD-A, but not SACD no HDMI available yet does.

I read a post in a different thread that the new Elites are to have HD Radio as well as XM Radio capabilities on board (like the Yamaha 4600). Can anyone confirm whether this is true? Thanks.

XM Ready yes..
HD Radio I find no mention of that feature..

M Code-

I did not realize that manufacturing costs had risen so sharply over the past year. I guess we can expect other manufacturers to follow this course or else raise prices then. I am probably in the minority who would prefer to pay a bit more to maintain build quality. I do hope someone gets this unit on a bench so we can see what the actual power performance compared to the power ratings.

Regarding the standing wave control, what I was asking is if Pioneer's approach is similar to the one HK employed in the 635. Monty described the filters earlier:



Bob

BOB..
I know a little about the HK scheme... ;)
but only what I have read about the Pioneer..
HK's approach was strongly supported by JBL's R&D team headed by Dr.Toole so I would give the HK version more credence.. as of now..

Last year when HK rolled their Room EQ version out, they made a very strong about the low frequency requirements and many did not fully understand its significance as they merely wanted more bands to tweak with.. Now that the gimmicks have worn off, users are beginning to realize what HK was saying about low frequencies.. It is crucial to pull down the LF peaks/resonances.. or else they will muddy up the higher frequencies....

A key point is the DSP processor, since HK uses the very powerful TI which has 1800MIPS.. A single TI DSP has 4 x the power of one of the Motorola/Freescale DSPs... though Pioneer does use 2 Motorola and just added a 3rd DSP (Sharc) Having said all of that, Pioneer is a very smart R&D group so their new Phase Control should be an improvement but.. time is required to run the EQ program and then compare...

Monty must have the only 74 in existence :)
I haven't been able to find another one anywhere :(

Also don't you guys think the 74 is a replacement for the 54, not the 56. So maybe Pioneer will be bringing out a 76 and a 79?

dc

Also don't you guys think the 74 is a replacement for the 54, not the 56. So maybe Pioneer will be bringing out a 76 and a 79?

dc


this is what I am hoping... although the 54 and 56 had exactly the same power specs regarding the amplification all the way down to the capacitance. If they do come out with a 76 or some other higher model, hopfully it will have additional power as well as support for the DD+/DTS+ formats as well.

For now I will definitely be staying with my 56txi... The 79avi DVD player that has been rumored for later this year may be something to consider as an upgrade to my 59avi though...

Dreamcatcher I hope you are right and this is the replacement for the 54.

this is what I am hoping... although the 54 and 56 had exactly the same power specs regarding the amplification all the way down to the capacitance. If they do come out with a 76 or some other higher model, hopfully it will have additional power as well as support for the DD+/DTS+ formats as well.

For now I will definitely be staying with my 56txi... The 79avi DVD player that has been rumored for later this year may be something to consider as an upgrade to my 59avi though...
Yes Pioneer will need, in their line, a DVD player with HDMI version 1.1, which the 59AVi is not.

dc

I'm curious as to why it's "XM Ready" and not just "Satellite Ready". I know a lot of the car stereos changed over so that you could choose between Sirius and XM.

I like 33,000uF caps and 1.2Kva power transformers a lot, (except when I have to lift them). The phenomenon you all are talking about is sometimes called "decontenting".

I will throw this out for your consideration. 1.0 watt average listening level is quite loud with most speakers. As far as loudness, 100 X 7 is going to get most people some rather prodigous levels. The advent of the subwoofer has negated much of the need for really high power.

Ability to handle 4 ohm loads is another story. But, with the exception of NAD and perhaps one other, receivers are just not designed to handle 4 ohm loads. The better ones will, especially at 10 db or more below reference.

I like to buy my stuff by the pound, much as the next guy, but there are some fairly sophisticated amp designs out there. One of my little toys is a 6.1 receiver that weighs just 21.6 pounds, yet it tested out at 92 watts per channel with all 6 channels driven. The audible difference between it and my 70 pound 425 watt amp is pretty small, (to my less than golden ears).

The processing power of the 74 is clearly awesome. The amps are decent, and for many will be sufficient. Would I have liked more beef, yes, but I bet I would just love this thing without any external amps.

M Code-

Thanks for that information.

I have read a couple of Dr. Toole's papers and have always appreciated that he speaks to many of the issues I have actually experienced. Additionally, his answers (minus all the math and physics) just make sense (to me anyway).

I will look forward to your thoughts on the stengths and weaknesses of each of these solutions.

Bob

spyboy-

You are right about us (me) sweating this too much without more information. I guess I have just come to expect that Pioneer is, literally, one of the "heavyweights."

In my particular case, I am most likely looking at a separate amp because most of the speakers I am now considering have a nominal impedance of 4 ohms. Even if a receiver could drive them, many of these speakers (e.g., Dynaudio) simply sound substantially better when fed a lot of power.

Bob

The only missing element would be the ability to decode DD+ and DTS HD.
If they do come out with a 76 or some other higher model, hopfully it will have additional power as well as support for the DD+/DTS+ formats as well.
As Kris Deering from Secrets has said many times on these forums, intitially DD+ and DTS-HD will be decoded in the DVD player not the AVR/Processor. After it is decoded it will pass over HDMI (ver. 1.1 or later) via PCM. He has verified this through his contacts in the AV industry. Toshiba will also be passing DD+ and DTS-HD via PCM streams over i.Link as well. Either way the 74TXVi will pass the required PCM stream as it has both HDMI 1.1 and i.Link.

People will be waiting a looong time IMHO, if you are going to wait for a AVR to decode DD+ and DTS-HD itself. There are not even any players available that can play the disks! Much less any software to play on them. IMHO, the HD movies on disks are going to take a least a few years from now to even start to catch up with current non-HD DVD 5.1 software.

In anycase the point is you are going to have to wait for DD+ and DTS-HD for sure, but when it comes out, the 74TXVi will be able to pass the PCM stream. It won't need to decode it, and neither will any other AVR in the beginning! All it will need is at least HDMI ver. 1.1!
;)

Best Regards,
Patrick

This is probably the wrong thread to ask the question, but what is the difference between DD+ and DD (DTS-HD and DTS)? Is it solely the bitrate and the number of channels or is there something else? Secondly, is the PCM signal just really DD/DTS passed? And finally, in the far, far away future will AVRs decode DD+/DTS-HD and one would need to upgrade again; or if one purchased the 74TXVi today would we derive all the benefit from the HD-DVD/BR format with this receiver?

Thanks!

Can someone answer the folloing questions referring to both the 74 and 72?

1. How many HDMI inputs/outputs do they have?

2. How many optical/coaxial inputs/outputs do they have?

3. Does it upconvert a 480i signal to either a 720p or 1080i signal?

4. If so, does it use the Faroudja chip?

Thx,

Kemical

Also don't you guys think the 74 is a replacement for the 54, not the 56. So maybe Pioneer will be bringing out a 76 and a 79?

I first thought that the 74 was a replacement for the 54, especially considering that MSRP on both is $1500. If it is, then the 72 carries a $300 premium over its predecessor. This makes some sense if Pioneer is going to differentiate the Elite line both with new features and premium pricing.

Given the significant new features in the 74, I am not sure how they would position a "76TXvi." I guess they could share the features of the 74 with a much beefier power section, maybe even sharing this and construction with the new flagship. Or they could use some in-between power rating plus a few more features that leaves plenty of room for the flagship.

At any rate, if there is a "76" in the making, I would expect it to come in between $2000 and $2500 to take on the Denon 4806 and Marantz 9600 which are both $3500 list.

Bob

Can someone answer the folloing questions referring to both the 74 and 72?

1. How many HDMI inputs/outputs do they have?

2. How many optical/coaxial inputs/outputs do they have?

3. Does it upconvert a 480i signal to either a 720p or 1080i signal?

4. If so, does it use the Faroudja chip?

Thx,

Kemical

1) It has 2 HDMI in, 1 out

2) Not certain if this is correct but AVland says 5 optical in, 1 out and 2 coax in, 0 out. It also has 2 i.Link and 1 USB ports, as well as a phone input.

3) It does not have a deinterlacer.

Bob

Thx. Doesn't solve my problem.

Kemical

Anyone know of a good DVI switch?

Kemical

Monty,

Do you know hat does the "Reverb" part pf MCACC does?

"For my room it set the Mains and Center corrections at 101hz, 177hz, and 220hz. For the subs it was 68hz, 101hz, and 220hz."

After what you said about the bass improvement, I'm surprised that none of these frequencies are lower.

Is your room small? I calculate 68 Hz being the 1st mode for a room whose largest dimension is 8'.

M Code,

"...users are beginning to realize what HK was saying about low frequencies.. It is crucial to pull down the LF peaks/resonances.. or else they will muddy up the higher frequencies...."

Not to go OT, but the reason I'm reading this thread is that my 635 is only partially correcting the bass in my admittedely poor (almost square) room.

Noah-

I think I read that the standing wave correction operates in the frequency range of 63 to 250 hertz. I am not convinced that any of the EQ systems can fix major problems that really require attention to the room itself.

Bob

Noah-

I think I read that the standing wave correction operates in the frequency range of 63 to 250 hertz. I am not convinced that any of the EQ systems can fix major problems that really require attention to the room itself.

Bob
You haven't tried Audyssey :)

You haven't tried Audyssey :)

You're right, I haven't. Although I notice that, like every other system, it gets mixed reviews.

Bob

Monty,

Does the 74TXVi have gold plated connectors on the back???

Also, Anyone know what the DACs and OpAmps are in the the 74TXVi? Are they better than the 56TXi???

Thanks,
Patrick

Damn MONTY!!!!

You sold your 56TXi for $900 on Ebay!!!!

Mind if I use some of that great sales pitch you made for the sale of my 56TXi????? ;)

P.S. Still want to know about the gold plated connectors!

Yes the connectors are gold plated as is the 56.

No kidding! I woke up this morning and found an "item sold" email from eBay in my inbox. The 56 sold in less than 8 hours for my "Buy It Now" price of $900. Not bad, so the upgrade to the 74 only cost me $400. That's roughly the cost of a decent HDMI switcher... Maybe I should have priced it higher. I just figured that the retail cost of the 56 would probably start to come down now that the 72 and 74 is on the market.

Feel free to use anything you want!

Anyone know of a good DVI switch?

Kemical

Dtrovision makes a DVI Switch. You can find them at http://www.pacificcable.com. That's where I got mine.

Yes the connectors are gold plated as is the 56.

No kidding! I woke up this morning and found an "item sold" email from eBay in my inbox. The 56 sold in less than 8 hours for my "Buy It Now" price of $900. Not bad, so the upgrade to the 74 only cost me $400. That's roughly the cost of a decent HDMI switcher... Maybe I should have priced it higher. I just figured that the retail cost of the 56 would probably start to come down now that the 72 and 74 is on the market.

Feel free to use anything you want!


Funny, I actually placed this into my item watch list...............did'nt look at sellers name until today ;)

congrats on the fast sell :)

M Code,

"...users are beginning to realize what HK was saying about low frequencies.. It is crucial to pull down the LF peaks/resonances.. or else they will muddy up the higher frequencies...."

Not to go OT, but the reason I'm reading this thread is that my 635 is only partially correcting the bass in my admittedely poor (almost square) room.

Noah..
To my knowledge, the 635 was the first AVR that addresses these low frequencies though still quite a bit of development remains..
But this requires a powerful processor and knowledge of room acoustics and loudspeakers to write the proper software. The rumor is that HK will raise the bar a couple of notches with certain new product announcements @ CEDIA, since the 635 is now 1 year old and TI has upgraded their DSPs..

Bottom line...
Each listening room is of different size, shape, construction materials and furnishings that will significantly influence the soundstage..
To me it is very exciting as the engineers begin to meet these challenges using more powerful DSP processors and inteligent software..
And then to guage their results/progress.. ;)

No kidding! I woke up this morning and found an "item sold" email from eBay in my inbox. The 56 sold in less than 8 hours for my "Buy It Now" price of $900. Not bad, so the upgrade to the 74 only cost me $400. That's roughly the cost of a decent HDMI switcher... Maybe I should have priced it higher. I just figured that the retail cost of the 56 would probably start to come down now that the 72 and 74 is on the market.


You got a really good price for it... I got my 56txi from an authorized dealer for like $100 or so more earlier this year.

I'll be keeping the 56txi for now, but my 59avi may be something to consider upgrading later this year...

The section on the standing wave control....

f/Q/ATT: these are the filter parameters where f represents frequency you will be targeting and Q is the bandwidth (the higher the Q, the narrower the bandwidth, or range) of the attenuation (ATT, the amount of reduction to the targeted freuency). Monty, what's the range of adjustment of the standing wave parameters?

F: highest and lowest frequencies it can handle? 1 Hz increments?
Q: highest and lowest?
ATT: max dB cut? Can it boost as well?

Thanks for all the info so far.

compare the op amps maybe


to what, the older Elite?

I think I read that the standing wave correction operates in the frequency range of 63 to 250 hertz. I am not convinced that any of the EQ systems can fix major problems that really require attention to the room itself.

Bob


You haven't tried Audyssey

I did, and considering the two biggest problems in my room occured below where it could do any good, it didn't help me...in fact , imho, quite the opposite.

I did, and considering the two biggest problems in my room occured below where it could do any good, it didn't help me...in fact , imho, quite the opposite.

Jake-

I'm guessing you are talking about a receiver's EQ setup. Did you have any luck with the EQ on Velo DD?

Bob

Yes, On both the DD15 and the .......OH, well anyway, yes.

I find that room correction for bass cannot be done easily in passive ways, affordably without making ugly additions to the room, but I can ussually do a fair bit in a room , passively, in regards to mids and highs, without the concomitant problems I have experianced with EQ schemes. As always , ymmv.

I am amazed at how flat my room has become in the three common seats and the musical blend is much more pleasant .

This might be dumb question; In fact I hope it is, as I was waiting for these to be relased already. Now that they apparently have been, I can't find them on sale anywhere, brick-and-mortar store nor online. Can someone give me a tip who has them ready to order ?
I am in the LA region; there is a Magnolia but it's not exactly my neighbourhood....

Thanks!!
Dan :)

M Code,

"The rumor is that HK will raise the bar a couple of notches with certain new product announcements @ CEDIA,..."

Great! Thanks for the tip.

Just curious, do you know if these new products will be free of the switching from L7 bug? BTW, any inside on when in the world the firmware fix, originally promised for last April, will be released?

Thanks

In answer to the questions regarding the standing wave corrections:

The range for the "f" parameter is 63hz-250hz. It is in varying preset increments ranging from 3-5 hz from what I saw.

The range for "Q" is 2.0-9.8

The max ATT cut is 12dB, there is no boost.

Additonally, for the SUBWOOFER channel I noticed an additional parapmeter for TRIM that is not available for MAIN (which is L/R) and CENTER.

I stopped by at the Magnolia HT today and they reiterated that the 74 was the "top of the line" new Elite, there will be no "76" and he acknowledged the smaller caps and lighter overall weight but said teh power supply provided the same current the 56 does. Take that as you may considering the source but he seemed pretty informed and mentioned they had just come back from training provided by Pioneer and asked the Pioneer reps the same questions. Obviously the Pioneer reps are salemen too and not engineers so even that is questionable.

Overall, I still continue to find the 75 an upgrade over the 56 in terms of sound quality(with the caveat that I use it only as a pre/pro) and processing. The new Advance MCACC with the standing wave and phase control is the real deal. Supposedly the new MCACC software that you can download for your PC is more advanced and can show you before and after room response. I don't have it yet so I can't verify.

I stopped by my favorite electonics store today, ABT Electronics and they said they aren't scheduled to get the new Elites until October. The guy I talked to said they were pissed the new MiniMag already had them. I bought the XM antenna from ABT today.

As a side note, the 12v Trigger error I reported has not appeared again in 2 days. I think initially is was from me switching sources without having the 12v Trigger parameter set correctly, and then on Saturday my wife turned it on and experienced it but it hasn't happened since. I'm beginning to think she just turned everything on out of sequence. No offense to any AVS ladies out there, but sometimes women and electronics don't mix, although I'm sure it's entirely a reflection of "lack of interest" in wanting to know how it works in addition to just SIMPLY enjoying it (emphasis on simple to use).

I ordered the 74TXVi from my local Magnolia Friday, and it arrived today so I guess they are in stock at most Magnolia warehouses. Won't be able to hook it up until Wednesday or Thursday, I'm using it as a prepro for a home theater room I've been working on for the past few weeks. Sort of a stopgap thing but hopefully it will be decent, and a better prepro than the Denon 3805 I was thinking of using.

Now to dig through the manual to try and figure out if this thing upconverts between the various video inputs.

Anyone know the odds that this receiver will be able to handle the new DD+ and DTS-HD formats associated with Blue-Ray and HD-DVD?

Anyone know the odds that this receiver will be able to handle the new DD+ and DTS-HD formats associated with Blue-Ray and HD-DVD?

I answered this on page 3 of this thread when two other members posed essentially the same question:


The only missing element would be the ability to decode DD+ and DTS HD.
If they do come out with a 76 or some other higher model, hopfully it will have additional power as well as support for the DD+/DTS+ formats as well.
As Kris Deering from Secrets has said many times on these forums, intitially DD+ and DTS-HD will be decoded in the DVD player not the AVR/Processor. After it is decoded it will pass over HDMI (ver. 1.1 or later) via PCM. He has verified this through his contacts in the AV industry. Toshiba will also be passing DD+ and DTS-HD via PCM streams over i.Link as well. Either way the 74TXVi will pass the required PCM stream as it has both HDMI 1.1 and i.Link.

People will be waiting a looong time IMHO, if you are going to wait for a AVR to decode DD+ and DTS-HD itself. There are not even any players available that can play the disks! Much less any software to play on them. IMHO, the HD movies on disks are going to take a least a few years from now to even start to catch up with current non-HD DVD 5.1 software.

In anycase the point is you are going to have to wait for DD+ and DTS-HD for sure, but when it comes out, the 74TXVi will be able to pass the PCM stream. It won't need to decode it, and neither will any other AVR in the beginning! All it will need is at least HDMI ver. 1.1!
;)

Best Regards,
Patrick

So all the room correction and equalization features in the 74txvi will operate just fine on a 5.1 or 7.1 PCM stream of 96Khz/24 bit audio? Will the various DSP modes be available for such input?

So all the room correction and equalization features in the 74txvi will operate just fine on a 5.1 or 7.1 PCM stream of 96Khz/24 bit audio? Will the various DSP modes be available for such input?
The 56TXi (which I currently own) can use MCACC and bass management for the 5.1 Hi-Rez PCM stream audio of DVD-A and SACD (after it's converted from DSD) when using i.Link. I'm pretty sure it will do it for 7.1 Hi-Rez audio. If and when we ever see 192kHz/24bit for all 7.1 channels that will be a different story. But I don't know of any current software that has more than 2 channels of 192kHz/24bit. From what I hear, DD+ and DTS-HD will not be 192kHz/24bit (at least not in the beginning).

TO be perfectly honest, there are not any players or software even available for the new HD formats. Not only that, but if I were a betting man by the time there is enough HD software to make it worthwhile, quite a few years will have passed. Standard Def. 5.1 software dominates the industry. With most people just owning a dvd player and a standard analog TV, and at best a cheap HTIB, the market is going to have a real tough time selling the HD software period. And when they do Hollywood is going to be much more concerned with the video side of things.
In about 2008-09 is when it will be more "real" to talk about, even then standard def 5.1 will still dominate the market for quite some time. IMHO, anyway. And until HD software comes out (they have been talking about it's release for two years), to me it's "vaporware".

The point with the audio side of things is that even when DD+ and DTS-HD becomes available, it will be in 96kHz/24 bit form, and the Elites with i.Link and at least ver. 1.1 HDMI should handle it!

Hope this helps,
Patrick

Noah..
The rumor is that HK will raise the bar a couple of notches with certain new product announcements @ CEDIA, since the 635 is now 1 year old and TI has upgraded their DSPs..

I wish they could devote a little bit more resources to fixing their existing products, rather than keep chasing the next fad.

I wish they could devote a little bit more resources to fixing their existing products, rather than keep chasing the next fad.
Let's get back to the 74TXVi shall we............

dc

Let's get back to the 74TXVi shall we............

dc

Agreed, although it's a bit difficult when only one person in the universe has one... :(

I went to the local Best Buy/Magnolia (just opened a few weeks ago). Looked for the receiver, couldn't find it, and then a helpful employee asked if he could help me. I told him I was looking for a Pioneer Elite receiver, and he said, "Oh, right this way!" and led me to the Home Theater area. Didn't realize they had separate rooms with the stuff. The salesman in that room was very friendly and seemed to know what he was talking about. He said they don't have the new one yet, but should in a week or two. I told him I'd be back :)

They also had Klipsh Synergy speakers, as well as a bunch of others, for audition. I was hoping they had the reference line, but alas... :(

I want to demo the Klipsch Reference as well as Paradigm Studio (did that once, but the general consensus on the speaker forum was that the dealer was an idiot who didn't know what the hell he was doing and that's why the Paradigms sounded muddy).
CW

Agreed, although it's a bit difficult when only one person in the universe has one... :(

uzun has one too, so that is two members now. Look up a few posts and you'll see he got it yesterday and plans on installing it within the next day or so. :)

I called our local Best Buy and they said they had them in at their warehouse.
So in a matter of days one should be able to have one in their hands!
Of course they wanted full retail for it :(

So Monty, is the 74 worth upgrading to from the 56?

dc

dc,

He sold his 56TXi on ebay, I think that answers your question. :)
His last post in this thread continued to be positive about the new MCACC with "Standing Wave" correction and phase control.

Patrick

I ordered the 74TXVi from my local Magnolia Friday, and it arrived today so I guess they are in stock at most Magnolia warehouses. Won't be able to hook it up until Wednesday or Thursday, I'm using it as a prepro for a home theater room I've been working on for the past few weeks.
Hey uzun,

You wouldn't be willing to pop the cover off the 74TXVi and see what OpAmps and DACs are installed would you???

Thanks,
and Best Regards,
Patrick

I can ask the installer guy who comes out tomorrow to look at it if he has time. I don't really want to void the warranty or anything like that. He might be curious enough to look inside before he puts it in the rack, I don't want to risk screwing anything up when I have so much to install in the next couple of days.

I wish they could devote a little bit more resources to fixing their existing products, rather than keep chasing the next fad.

The latest industry market survey shows HK market share for AVRs jumped 27% over last year.. Also the financials for Harman International indicated a record year, highest in its 50 year history.. Compare those results to the significant losses announced by Sony...
Looks like HK must be doing something rite.. :rolleyes:

I can ask the installer guy who comes out tomorrow to look at it if he has time. I don't really want to void the warranty or anything like that. He might be curious enough to look inside before he puts it in the rack, I don't want to risk screwing anything up when I have so much to install in the next couple of days.
uzun,

I perfectly understand. It would be great if your installer could take a quick peek at the inside if possible.

The DACs (digital to analog converters) are located on the DSP board. In both the 55TXi and 56TXi they are AK4383 chips. The 59TXi uses some Burr Brown DACs (PCM1704).
The OpAmps are located on the main board and are NJM4565 chips on both the 55TXi and 56TXi. The 59TXi has the JRC5534 and the DSP56007 chips.
It's quite possible that the 74TXVi has none of these DACs or OpAmps because of newer part numbers, but they may be similar.

If your installer could trace down which chips the 74TXVi had you would have more than a few thankful party's here! If not, that's cool, but it's worth a try!

Thanks and Best Regards,
Patrick

I stopped by my favorite electonics store today, ABT Electronics and they said they aren't scheduled to get the new Elites until October. The guy I talked to said they were pissed the new MiniMag already had them. I bought the XM antenna from ABT today.


Going to make Elites scarce in many dealers for two reasons:

1.) BB/MM will get the lion's share

2.) because of #1, some retailers may reconsider their buisness relationship with Pioneer.

I was assured that the new Elite receivers will be available in most retailers by the end of the month. They are just waiting on the iPod cables that WILL be packaged in the box with the unit. The SILVER elite versions will be available next month.


WalkamoHB

Going to make Elites scarce in many dealers for two reasons:

1.) BB/MM will get the lion's share

2.) because of #1, some retailers may reconsider their buisness relationship with Pioneer.

I'd like to use one as a pre (well for main channels anyway)

I've been told USB in is stereo only, is this correct?

I'm a bit disappointed with what I've read so far, about the power... or did Pioneer get naughty and use a kind of class-d in their amps (efficiency going up, power needs drop)

I really need to know about the DACs and opamps...

Just when I start to like Pioneer, they go cheap :o

Yves,

Maybe they did something different with the power, but I doubt it. Lets remember you don't have to be a "heavy" AVR to sound good. If memory serves, the Arcam AVR300 weighs about the same as the 74TXVi. Its secret, I'm sure is in the DAC and OpAmp section though. So Monty tells us the 74TXVi sounds much better than his 56TXi, maybe the 74TXVi has some better DACs and Opamps! Now that would be cool! :)

Best Regards,
Patrick

I thought the Arcam uses replacable fuses insted of current limiting design too, but I may be remembering incorrectly.

I'm not too concerned about power. With "heavy" I wasn't talking about the effective weight of the machine, but the smaller transformer.

Mine would only have to drive an 8 ohm centre channel and L & R surrounds so I guess it'll do just fine.

Eventually it'll just do L & R surround duties.

Yves

I thought the Arcam uses replacable fuses insted of current limiting design too, but I may be remembering incorrectly.
I'm not sure if it is current limiting or not either. I actually just found a review in HTM that says the AVR300 actually puts out almost 122watts with 5 channles driven with 1% distortion into an 8 Ohm load and 111watts at .1% distortion. I don't know if that's with a 20hz-20kHz signal though. It's probably just 1kHz. I thought I read somewhere that it put out significantly less than 100w all channels driven with a 20Hz-20kHz signal, can't be sure though.
Most people I hear of just use it as a pre/pro.
It actually weighs less than the 74TXVi at about 32lbs according to the HTM review. So if it can actually do 111w per channel (.1% distortion) 20Hz-20kHz, maybe there is hope for the 74TXVi yet! ;) Like I said, I have my doubts though, they probably tested it with a 1kHz signal.

Anyway, I'm really hoping uzun's installer was able to take the cover off the 74TXVi and give us some part numbers for the DACs and OpAmps.

Best Regards,
Patrick

I thought the Arcam uses replacable fuses insted of current limiting design too, but I may be remembering incorrectly. Sheesh, that's so retro. Overload it a bit, take it in to the repair shop! Is Arcam still in the 19th century? ;)

I can ask the installer guy who comes out tomorrow to look at it if he has time.
uzun,

In this case, no news is probably "bad news". I'm guessing your installer would not do it. When you get a chance, let us know.

Thanks!

Best Regards,
Patrick

He might we are still wiring the room, have a lot to do, assemble the avrak, mount the projector, make a box for the center channel to mount to a support beam or something. It's a big job and we just got started today.

Hey Guys,

I just got off the phone with a Pioneer Tech. I was asking if he knew what kind DACs and OpAmps were in the new 74TXVi. The bad news is, he said he wouldn't know until the service manual came out (about a month or two from now).

BUT, the good news is, I had foresight to ask him about the amp section and the power supply. After reading a post from "Sounds Simple" (Bob) that the 74TXVi has "apparent improvements in the audio section of the amp" and reading it was much lighter than the 56TXi, I thought it was worth it to ask if the Tech. knew anything about it.
Guess what they do NOT use MOSFET amps in the 74TXVi. I asked him directly if they were digital amps, he said he did not think so. But they are a totally different design. He said he just had the oppurtunity to look inside one and verified they are definatley not the MOSFET design (I should have asked him to go look at the DACs and OpAmps too). From what he has been told, these new amps are much more effiecient in regards to heat. He explained briefly why this was so, but I can't remember the details. He said they are much smaller, and put off much less heat, and they do not require as big of a heatsink as a result. He mentioned something about thier design with regards to current and voltage that also meant that the amp requires less capacitance in the circuit, yet still can supply as much power (Maybe one of the reasons the Caps are smaller than the ones in the 56TXi). He said in his opinion they sounded just as good as the MOSFET design, and maybe a little better. I also asked him about the power supply, he said "oh yes, that is different too!" He said mostly in part to the different amp design.

Interesting stuff for sure! Hopefully in a good way! Maybe it is some type of hybrid digital amp, and he is just not up to speed on the technology yet! Now wouldn't that be cool! :cool:

One thing is for sure, with so many changes in this Elite model, it does make me even more curious if they also changed things around with the DACs and OpAmps.

uzun, regarding your installer looking at the DACs and OpAmps, would a little begging help? How about ALLOT? I can swallow my pride for awhile! :D

Best Regards,
Patrick

Nah, no digital amps that would change the whole operation of the receiver... but... It's gonna be some kind of class D, I'm sure of it... I know it, I feel it :D

What is the efficiency difference between class D and AB again? 70-something vs 93% ?

Let's say 70 for AB, 90 for D: 70 is 0.78% of 90... The rated power is 10% less than the former Pioneer Elite amp...

Do you feel it? ;)

Add 2 high quality amps for the stereo channels and this might be a giant killer.

On the other hand, a class D design should be more expensive than class AB - I'm not sure you can win this back with a smaller PS section.

Let's cross fingers and hope the opamps and dac's are worth every penny.

:p

Pat, awesome reading/info. I want one! I'm glad home amps/receivers are taking on class D designs. Amps for car audio have been using it for what... 3 yrs roughly? My electric bill will be happier now. I think at the price point of the 74TXVi, new design, better SQ (according to some post), Pioneer is going to make a killing.

Yes, seems to make more sense it's some type of class D design, especially the way the Tech. described it. Like I just posted in the other thread and Yves you also eluded to it costing more for a Class D design. Not sure how they implemented it and still brought the cost down. Maybe by not using all those pretty copper screws! :p :D

Class-D implementation mostly requires the output power device to be MOSFETs. If what the techie said is true, I don't think it can be a class-D or hybrid.

Interesting, do you have any other ideas on what it could be, if not class D or hybrid?
Could it be that the MOSFETs are much smaller in size in a Class D design compared to the MOSFETS that the Tech. was used to seeing in the previous Elite models? And maybe he did not recognize them because of smaller size???

Guys:

My installer and I are at Uzun's house, and no, we can't pop the top on the Elite. It's a no-no (at least for us since we are certified-Elite installers not an ASC, authorized repair center), and I wouldn't want to cause any issue on his new receiver.

That's cool. Do you have any idea what type of amps the 74TXVi is using, since the Pioneer Tech. I talked to today said they were not MOSFET??

Thanks,
Patrick

Interesting, do you have any other ideas on what it could be, if not class D or hybrid?
Could it be that the MOSFETs are much smaller in size in a Class D design compared to the MOSFETS that the Tech. was used to seeing in the previous Elite models? And maybe he did not recognize them because of smaller size???

I have no idea, but you may be right. I don't think what the techie said is a guaranteed truth.

No, but I can probably find out for you.

That would be very cool. If there was anyway to find out which DACs and OpAmps it has that would be cool too! :)

Patrick-

Great info.

It is pretty easy to imagine that Pioneer is using some type of class D amplification. They have a solid background in this area with their subwoofers and, more importantly, mobile audio. They seem to have borrowed a number of technologies for the new receivers from the mobile audio designs - standing wave correction (phase control) and iPod connectivity as examples - so implementing class D in their receivers is not much of a stretch. It does seem at odds with the tech's no MOSFET comment unless he was just saying that it is not the standard MOSFET-based class A/B design.

In terms of cost, a class D design might be a wash for Pioneer. There are significant savings in the power stage (power supply and caps). The weight reduction saves on both in-bound and out-bound freight costs not to mention physically smaller heat sinks could save even more on the in-bound freight. Shave a bit here and there on build quality (copper screws, for instance) and this is certainly a possibility.

What we really won't know until we hear accounts of people using the amp section to power their speakers. One of the problem areas for class D designs has been distortion. This is certainly not "unfixable" since I have not heard people complaining about their Bel Canto amps.

This looks to be a very interesting year for Pioneer and maybe we will see even more surprises at CEDIA.

Bob

Bob,

It is indeed possible that the Tech. meant that it was not the standard AB MOSFET design Pioneer usually implements in the Elite line. I guess it's also possible that he just took a quick glance inside and saw that the amp section was much different than the other Elite models (smaller heat sinks, etc..), and just assumed it was not a MOSFET design. Then again he may have just not been very clear in the way he explained it, as he did seem to know what was different about it in some ways.

Good to know that it seems very possible for Pioneer to implement the Class D design as they have already taken some of their car audio technology.

I can't wait to get mine now (hopefully by the end of next week or so). I was planning on just using it as a preamp for the front three (more demanding) channels. But I will definately try them with my 87.5dB (8 Ohm) VS LCR-15 speakers, and in a couple of more weeks I will be demoing some 86dB (6 Ohm) ACI Protege speakers which should be a decent test for the 74TXVi! Although in both cases I will be running the speakers as "small" crossed over at 80Hz. ;)

If this amp section can indeed handle the load in a very decent manner, I would be glad to sell off my Odyssey 3 channel amp and save some $. I'm guessing I still might want to keep the Odyssey, but if not, Pioneer might just have a little giant killer here. Especially when you consider all of its other features and price!

Best Regards,
Patrick

Very interesting thread - I took the plunge today and ordered at 74 to arrive next Tuesday (from Magnolia).
I was wondering if one of the already-owners could please confirm 2 things:

a) home many optical and coax digital audio inputs are there ?

b) does the unit have the audio delay feature (the 56txi did) to sync picture and audio if neccessary ?

c) does the OSM and all info get send through the HDMI ? In other words, is the HDMI connection to the TV (Samsung 1080DLP in this case) the only connection needed ?
I am asking as the Yamah 4600 does not display it's GUI through the HDMI out.

Thanks in advance,
Dan

Also, how much audio delay is available? Is it still global or can different delays be assigned per input?

FYI: MOSFET's are a type of transisitor, not an amplifier topology.

Can this Pioneer do bass management on analog multichannel inputs?

any pics?

FYI: MOSFET's are a type of transisitor, not an amplifier topology.

stereodude-

I can't speak for others but i was just trying to point out what seems like an inconsistency (based on what was said by the Pioneer tech). I

In my very limited understanding of amps, I have heard and read that class D amps typically use MOSFET devices in the power supply. So, if the Pioneer tech is saying "no MOSFETs", is he suggesting that it is not a class D amp?

His remark may mean simply that Pioneer has abandoned their MOSFET-based designs in favor of using another type of transistor in class A/B operation or that they have, in fact, chosen a different topology altogether.

In the end, it only matters that it performs well and sounds good.

Bob

FYI: MOSFET's are a type of transisitor, not an amplifier topology.

Sorry, when we are talking "MOSFET amps" I just assumed people knew we were talking of MOSFET "based" AB amps. Again sorry for the confusion. In fact I kind of confused myself for a few posts. :o
At this point I'm not sure exactly what type of amp is in the 74TXVi. It does seem though that it is not using MOSFET transistors, at least according to the Pioneer Tech. Who may or may not know what he is talking about. In anycase the one thing that does seem for sure, is that it is a different amplifier design.

As for BM on the 5.1 inputs, maybe Monty Williams or uzun can chime in and let us know!

Best Regards,
Patrick

I know only a couple other people have the 74TXVi yet, but for those of you that do or for others that are more familair with HDMI maybe you can help. I cannot get the 74 to work with HDMI.

I'm using a Pioneer Elite 59AVi universal player via HDMI and a Comcast Motorola Digital/HD box connected via a HDMI-DVI cable as sources. The receiver's monitor output is connected to a Sony VLP-HS51 HD Projector via HDMI. Both the 59Avi and the Sony HS51 are HDCP compliant but I can't get any video from DVD or cable to pass through the 74TXVi.

When I hook everything up and everything on the "HDMI" indicator on the receiver flashes continuously off/on. I have gone into "Input" menu and selected HDMI as sources for the each input. If I connect the 59AVi directly to the HS51 and bypass the 74TXVi everything works correctly but as soon as I plug the HDMI cable for the projector into the monitor output, the HDMi indicators flashes and I get no video output to the monitor.

Am I missing some other setting? The troubleshooting section for the receiver says that if the indicator flashes check for various things liek HDCP compatibility, etc but then it also gives a caveat that even of the components are HDCP compliant they still might not work together.

I went back to the MAgnolia that I bought the 74 from and got some blank stares and stuttering. The only suggestion that one of their techs/installers offered was to switch off "progressive" on the 59AVi, but that doesn't do anything to address the fact that I can't get video to pass through HDMI from the cable box either. I had previously used a DVI cable connected directly to another monitor and it worked correctly so there shouldn't be anything from with my cable box and it's unlikely that I've got problems with multiple components.

Guess what they do NOT use MOSFET amps in the 74TXVi. I asked him directly if they were digital amps, he said he did not think so. But they are a totally different design. He said he just had the oppurtunity to look inside one and verified they are definatley not the MOSFET design (I should have asked him to go look at the DACs and OpAmps too). From what he has been told, these new amps are much more effiecient in regards to heat. He explained briefly why this was so, but I can't remember the details. He said they are much smaller, and put off much less heat, and they do not require as big of a heatsink as a result.

assuming the tech knows what he was talking about, all those things points out to a digital amp. And those amps are most definitively powered by (smaller) MOSFETs, which contradicts what he said earlier.

It is NOT DIGITAL.

It is NOT DIGITAL.

Since you are so emphatic, perhaps you can share the topology and tell us how they shaved 10 lbs from the weight without sacrificing performance. Are you saying that switching to bipolar output devices allowed the use of smaller power components that removed some 20+% of the weight of its predecessor?

Bob

All I can say is if they'd gone digital there'd have been a much larger weight savings. The 74 is not in the same league as the older Elites. They've gone downmarket in a big way but the soon to be announced flagships will be a large improvement over the current ones.

assuming the tech knows what he was talking about, all those things points out to a digital amp. And those amps are most definitively powered by (smaller) MOSFETs, which contradicts what he said earlier.
Hi Millwood,

Yes, that was what I was thinking after going back and forth with a few members here yesterday. In a couple of posts after my original post here and in the other thread I started, I said:

"Could it be that the MOSFETs are much smaller in size in a Class D design compared to the MOSFETS that the Tech. was used to seeing in the previous Elite models? And maybe he did not recognize them because of smaller size???"

and

"I guess it's also possible that he just took a quick glance inside and saw that the amp section was much different than the other Elite models (smaller heat sinks, etc..), and just assumed it was not a MOSFET design."

I'm hoping DocDVD can chime in after he contacts his Pioneer connections and verify just what type of amplifier design is being used in the 74TXVi.

P.S:
Nate Sr., I'm guessing the amp section in the 74TXVi is still going to be quite a bit better than say the Pioneer VSX-1015, which uses a MOSFET "based" design. Something is definately different, but again at 140w per channel (suppossedly) compared to the 1015, I'm sure its amp section is better. Especially when you consider that all the recent Elite models have come in fairly close to their power specs. all channles driven (well at least 5 channels for sure) 20Hz-20kHz.

Best Regards,
Patrick

They've gone downmarket in a big way but the soon to be announced flagships will be a large improvement over the current ones.

This sounds like we can expect a 76 and a 79.

Bob

Nate Sr., I'm guessing the amp section in the 74TXVi is still going to be quite a bit better than say the Pioneer VSX-1015, which uses a MOSFET design. Something is definately different, but again at 140w per channel (suppossedly) compared to the 1015, I'm sure its amp section is better. Especially when you consider that all the recent Elite models have come in fairly close to their power specs. all channles driven (well at least 5 channels for sure) 20Hz-20kHz.

Does THX certification impose any requirement for meeting rated power?

Bob

Does THX certification impose any requirement for meeting rated power?

Bob
Supposedly Bob. The 1015 and the 74TXVi are both THX Select 2. The 1015 is rated at 120w per channel. I'm not sure how well their Non-Elite models have fared as far as meeting their power specs. though. We do know that the Elite models usually are fairly close to their rated specs.

Patrick

All I can say is if they'd gone digital there'd have been a much larger weight savings. The 74 is not in the same league as the older Elites. They've gone downmarket in a big way but the soon to be announced flagships will be a large improvement over the current ones.

Nate-

Are these remarks from first-hand product knowledge?

As far as the weight, the Bel Canto eVo6 is 6x120 and weighs in at 42 lbs. I am not suggesting that the Pio is anywhere close in class to the eVo, but a good portion of the weight in the Bel Canto is from internal shielding (4 layer chassis). Additonal shielding in the Pio could offset some of the weight savings in the power circuitry and explain the Pio's middle-ground weight. this is consistent with what I heard (and posted) in earlier discussion - that Pioneer had improved audio performance and internal shielding. This is only information that has been passed on to me so I am claiming no "special" knowledge.

Of course, if you have more information on the new design, I am sure there are many here who would love to hear it, especially if it is firsthand.

Bob

All I can say is it is not digital and it is not an improvement in sound. Quite the opposite in fact. Wait for the 76 and 79. And to repeat it is in no way a digital amp. Period.

Nate,

Exactly where do you get this information. Saying "All I can say" has no credibility at all.
After all we don't know you from "Adam". Who are your sources? If you don't have any concrete eveidence, it means nothing!

Heard from my contact that they went to bipolar as a cost saving measure.
:rolleyes:

Does THX certification impose any requirement for meeting rated power?

THX certification does not impose any regulations/rules that requires a product needs to meet any advertised power claims that a manufacture may make for a product. It pretty much only requires that they meet a minimum amount of power into a certain load. And with that, then they rate it as either as a THX Select/Select2 for approximately a 2,000 cu ft room, or as a THX Ultra2 for rooms 3,000 cu ft and larger.

Nate,

Exactly where do you get this information. Saying "All I can say" has no credibility at all.
After all we don't know you from "Adam". Who are your sources? If you don't have any concrete eveidence, it means nothing!

That's fine you need not believe me. I didn't post here to start a war. Anyways all will soon be known but if I were interested in an Elite, I'd be waiting or keeping a 56TXi for a while.

Thanks, Johnla.

That is kinda what I remembered but just wanted to check.

Bob

That's fine you need not believe me. I didn't post here to start a war. Anyways all will soon be known but if I were interested in an Elite, I'd be waiting or keeping a 56TXi for a while.
Nate,

We have no reason to believe or not to believe you. You have given us nothing here but your opinion. Sharing opinions is one thing, but when we start to share them as fact, usually that means you have some facts to back them up! Why so affraid to share your sources?

That's fine you need not believe me. I didn't post here to start a war. Anyways all will soon be known but if I were interested in an Elite, I'd be waiting or keeping a 56TXi for a while.

I think I will be waiting to hear the opinions of people who have hands-on with the unit. If you are one of these people, you could easily defend your position.

For all we know, you work for Denon. :)

Bob

Was asked to not say anything specific until the official launch and I will honor that.

Was asked to not say anything specific until the official launch and I will honor that.
To me if it's in stores and in houses. You can consider it "launched"! ;)
I know of a few Elite dealers and installers on this board who don't know. Are you a dealer? Have a friend in the Engineering dept. at Pioneer? What??

P.S.
Seeing how you are new to the board, I thought you might want to know it is wise to be careful what you say on boards like this when you start stating things as "fact". If you are actually telling the truth and are 100% sure about it, yet you "can't say anything". You really should have kept it to yourself until you could reveal your sources to back it up. Kind of a common courtesey thing on boards like this.

NateSr

perhaps you can give us a date so we at least know how long we have to wait?

Was asked to not say anything specific until the official launch and I will honor that.

I can respect that. But, if so, why are you here saying anything at all about the new units?

Quite frankly, your posts smell of "I am making it up as I go along." You started out with a claim of fact ("It is NOT DIGITAL") and then moved onto being cryptic. You either have inside knowledge or you don't (you never answered this question). In any case, you are entitled to your musings and opinions but they probably should be qualified as such.

Bob

I 100% agree Bob.

I just edited my last post with a P.S. to reflect basically the same thing.

Best regards,
Patrick

Heard from my contact that they went to bipolar as a cost saving measure
:rolleyes:

I agree Tom, this also make no sense as bipolar devices usually need much bigger heat sinks as they are current driven and get much hotter!
Makes Nate's story seem even "fishier". I noticed he deleted that part about bipolar in that post. :rolleyes:

I can respect that. But, if so, why are you here saying anything at all about the new units?

Quite frankly, your posts smell of "I am making it up as I go along." You started out with a claim of fact ("It is NOT DIGITAL") and then moved onto being cryptic. You either have inside knowledge or you don't (you never answered this question). In any case, you are entitled to your musings and opinions but they probably should be qualified as such.

Bob
It's NOT digital plain and simple. Not even sure why anyone would even guess it might be.

Nate,

Unless you can tell us what it is then, move on!. "Plain and Simple"! ;) :rolleyes:

BTW: I can tell you this, it has the same Sharc processor that the 59TXi has. Has a better MCACC than the 56TXi with 9 bands of EQ and "Standing Wave" correction and Phase control. Um... what else, XM radio, iPod connection, surround headphone processing, and yes more rated power. Is there anything esle I'm missing. Oh yes don't forget HDMI! But your right the older Elites are much better!:rolleyes:

It's not digital and until launch that's all you need to know.

No, all WE need to really need to know is your opinion is worthless without any proof of well........, really anything! :rolleyes:

That's fine just keep believing it's digital then. :) It's not and it's a decided set downwards in sound quality in the amp section from last year's models.

I don't necessarily "believe" it's digital! :rolleyes:
Please show me where I said that I "believed" it was definately a digital amp!
All I have been saying to you is this, and I will say it again:

"P.S.
Seeing how you are new to the board, I thought you might want to know it is wise to be careful what you say on boards like this when you start stating things as "fact". If you are actually telling the truth and are 100% sure about it, yet you "can't say anything". You really should have kept it to yourself until you could reveal your sources to back it up. Kind of a common courtesey thing on boards like this."

As well as when you posted that:
"The 74 is not in the same league as the older Elites. They've gone downmarket in a big way"

Which I again reply:

"I can tell you this, it has the same Sharc processor that the 59TXi has. Has a better MCACC than the 56TXi with 9 bands of EQ and "Standing Wave" correction and Phase control, AND 6 memory settings. Um... what else, XM radio, iPod connection, surround headphone processing, and yes more rated power. Is there anything esle I'm missing. Oh yes don't forget HDMI! But your right the older Elites are much better!" :rolleyes:

You said:
"it's a decided set downwards in sound quality in the amp section from last year's models."

Tell that to Monty Williams, who said the sound quality was much better than his 56TXi!

I hate to say it Nate: But "put up or shut up" It' s that simple. :)

Has much better features and a much worse sound quality. If bells and whistles are important to you it'll be great. As a pre/pro a cheaper pre2dsp will destroy however the AR doesn't have the features. The amps are not as good as the Mosfet ADE based Elites. You're getting one next week so why not just wait instead of all your conjecturing? Boy could drive himself crazy doing that.
There's nothing to "put up" I've told you the truth, as much as I can, and you'll see and hear for yourself when you get it. If I wasn't 100% correct I wouldn't have posted.

Have you heard it Nate, compared it to the 56TXi?

C'mon, you have "put up" absolutely NOTHING, but un-backed-up statements, PERIOD!!!

As far as people reading this, please tell me why they should believe you?? If you make a claim be prepared to back it up, or just keep it to yourself!

Again, "Put up or Shut Up" Simple! ;)

Yup I have. I don't care if people believe me because I'm speaking the truth. You who have never even seen one should be believed? Anyways I am done with this thread. You'll just have to wait until it's in your hands won't you?

You two should get a room :rolleyes:

Monty, Have you figured out the HDMI issue?
Any luck getting the 74 to pass HDMI video, does it pass the audio with no video, or neither?

dc

Yup I have.
Funny you did not say so until now! :rolleyes:

If your so "in the know" you would probably also know that any amplifier will have the least effect on sound than any other component in a given system. Besides room and speakers, source material, etc.. As far as a AVR goes the processor section will have much more effect on sound quality at normal listening levels than the amp section period (that is unless it's only capable of 25 watts). Opamps and DACs will by far be more of the "tell tale" in any given AVR/processor. As far as we know the 74TXVi has at least the same DACs and Opamps as the 56TXi. Combine that with the much better MCACC and you must really be "high" to think that the 74TXVi is going to sound that much worse than the 56TXi just because of the amp section! That or you just do not know enough about it!

It's always nice to give the impression you know what your talking about (I know I do ;) even when I don't, it's that ego thing :) ). Sadly though you never even gave that impression! ;)

MCACC and as a matter of fact any of the EQ systems currently in use completely collapse the soundstage and do far more bad than good. That being said the amps used in the 74 have an easily discernable difference in sound from the 56 itself not a particularly great sounding receiver. Both are also not overly good when used as a pre/pro UNLESS movies are by a large margin your priority.
And no I am not "high". :rolleyes:

MCACC and as a matter of fact any of the EQ systems currently in use completely collapse the soundstage and do far more bad than good.
Some people have said they notice something to that effect, but the vast majority think otherwise! I'll tell you one of the main reasons why is because MCACC will have it's most correction in the midbass, bringing it down quite a bit because most consumer speakers (even the high priced ones) have a significant bump in that freq. range! Why because it gives the illusion of sounding better, "a fuller sound" (bigger soundstage some say). To me it's colored sound! When this is corrected the music (instruments and especially vocals) are much more defined and more naturally heard. It improves the imaging many times. Glad you like the illusion the bumped up midbass gives you though. I've listened for hours on end comparing the two with and without MCACC, and it's absolutly no contest to my ears!

As far as the amps being so different, sigh............, sorry you are so hung up on this. I would bet you if I sat you down (blindfolded) and had you listen to both AVR's without any processing (Pure Direct Mode) at normal listening levels (level matched) there is no way you would reliablely tell the difference between the 74TXVi and the 56TXi, absolutely no way!! There have been extensive studies by professionals proving this very fact. Please don't kid yourself!

Sorry, this is has got me going so much, most of your contentions really don't make any sense at all though!

Best Regards,
Patrick

Some people have said they notice something to that effect, but the vast majority think otherwise! I'll tell you one of the main reasons why is because MCACC will have it's most correction in the midbass, bringing it down quite a bit because most consumer speaker (even the high priced ones) have a significant bump in that freq. range! Why because it gives the illusion of sounding better, bigger soundstage some say. To me it's colored sound! When this is corrected the music (instruments and especially vocals) are much more defined and more naturally heard. It improves the imaging many times. Glad you like the illusion the bumped up midbass gives you though. I've listened for hours on end comparing the two with and without MCACC, and it's absolutly no contest to my ears!

As far as the amps being so different, sigh............, sorry you are so hung up on this. I would bet you if I sat you down (blindfolded) and had you listen to both AVR's without any processing (Pure Direct Mode) at normal listening levels there is no way you would reliablely tell the difference between the 74TXVi and the 56TXi, absolutely no way!! There have been extensive studies by professionals proving this very fact. Plaes don't kid yourself! Otherwise no matter what you say, I will still believe you are definatley "High"!

Sorry, this is has got me going so much, most of your contentions really don't make any sense at all!

Best Regards,
Patrick

We tested double blind over two days last weekend. I also do not have a midbass hump in any of the sspeakers I use because I can afford and use speakers that are not crap also my room is treated to about as close to perfection as any room can get. I do not use Are you exceedingly young? Your use of the word high and implying somone ust be in that state would make me guess you're about 18?
If you cannot hear fifferences in amps I feel sorry for you and perhaps you and Noussaine should start some kind of all amps sound the same club?
Maybe it could be hidden away somewhere and you could get "high" there with your high school chums.
And oh yes the "vast majority" of friends and colleagues of mine, all owning extremely high end dear all share the same opinion of Audisset, YPAO and MCACC.

Nate,

That Midbass hump lives in just about all consumer speakers High end or not!!!
No I'm not 18! I just get a little upset when people come in here less than 1 week old to this forum and claim they know it all, and expect we should believe them. Sorry my friend it does NOT work that way!!!

I have used the word "High" twice! And I deleted the last one before you even posted your last post. Before you pass judgement on me and my age, why don't you read through some of my almost 2000 posts over the past 3 years here and see just how respectful I have been will almost every post and member! Again, I just have trouble with posters such as yourself. Show me a little credibility about your stance before you go spouting off please!!!!!

I don't end almost every post with "Best Regards" because I'm 18! :)

Ask around, and you'll soon find out there must have been a reason for me losing my cool! Which by the way I apologize for. But most of my stance with regards to this argument stands!

BTW: Just because you and "colleagues" own extremely high end gear does not really mean you know more about audio than the next guy (you may or may not). It does mean for sure you have more money, but that's about it.
And for future reference if you come across as a little less of a "know it all" you will be much better received here.

Best Regards,
Patrick

Nate,

That Midbass hump lives in just about all consumer speakers High end or not!!!
No I'm not 18! I just get a little upset when people come in here less than 1 week old to this forum and claim they know it all, and expect we should believe them. Sorry my fried it does NOT work that way!!!

I have used the word "High" twice! And I deleted the last one before you even posted your last post. Before you pass judgement on me and my age, my don't you read some through of my almost 2000 posts over the past 3-4 years here and see just how respectful I have been will almost every post! Again I just have trouble with posters such as yourself. Show me a little credibility before you go spouting off please!!!!!

I don't end almost every post with best regards because I'm 18! :)

Ask around, and you soon find out there must have been a reason for me losing my cool! Which by the way I apologize for. But most of my stance with regards to this argument stands!

Best Regrads,
Patrick

I don't care how many posts you have you're posting erroneous information. I've been a recording engineer for 27 years and if you think I'm a newbie when it comes to matters of acoustics well you go right ahead and think that. If you also think that all speakers have a mid bass bump to give a perception of of a deeper bass output well you go right ahead. There are also rooms where room gain and boundary effects have been tamed to not exacerbate these issues.
Now that you've cut down on calling people high you might want to diminish the use of exclamation marks if you want to be taken seriously.
Not sure how signing best regrads (sic) would make you appear to be older than 18 either.
Most of your stance doesn't stand it's just plain wrong. And sorry I don't have time to "ask around" about you nor do I have the slightest interest.

I was ready to get the 74txvi but if there will be a 76txvi I will wait. Would the 76/79 be annouced at CEDIA?

Also I thought this thread was very helpful till today. I think the war of words is getting old no matter who is right or wrong just move on.

Bill

I don't care how many posts you have you're posting erroneous information.
Most of your stance doesn't stand it's just plain wrong. And sorry I don't have time to "ask around" about you nor do I have the slightest interest.
How am I posting erroneous information? What have I said that you know as "law" and is not true? I never said the 74TXVi has digital amps, though you claim I did! I never said ALL speakers have a midbass hump, I said most. Please stop mis-quoting me!

Again, for future reference if you come across as a little less of a "know it all" you will be much better received here. It's one thing to be smart, it's another to be arrogant!

Keep posting the way you are and you won't have to ask around about me, you'll figure it out when you go on some ignore lists. Are you always this pleasant to deal with? I'm betting Bob and I just touched some nerves, kind of like you touched mine. It happens, I try to avoid it whenever possible (especially with my kids), but obviously I let it get out of control myself in this case. Luckily I'm big enough to admit it and apologize.

Best Regards,
Patrick

Can I settle this for you once and for all?

I know for a fact that the new Elite doesn't use any linear amps at all. Nor does it use digital. It is a new technology that Pioneer just acquired from two galaxies away and it uses the 3rd cusin removed of the dark side. That's how it shaved off 15 lbs, or so.

Just trust me on this. What? you want to have facts? Well, I cannot tell you now. I have a nda with Pioneer and the dark side on that. I am not telling you for your own good. OK?

As if that sounded very cridible, :)

also my room is treated to about as close to perfection as any room can get.

How can you make such a statement? How many rooms have you seen? If you haven't seen all the rooms in the world, how can you tell that your room among the best?

Isn't that simple logic?

How am I posting erroneous information? What have I said that you know as "law" and is not true? I never said the 74TXVi has digital amps, though you claim I did! i never said ALL speakers have a midbass hump, I said most. Please stop mis-quoting me!

Again, for future reference if you come across as a little less of a "know it all" you will be much better received here. It's one thing to be smart, it's another to be arrogant!

Keep posting the way you are and you won't have to ask around about me, you'll figure it out when you go on some ignore lists. Are you always this pleasant to deal with? I'm betting Bob and I just touched some nerves, kind of like you touched mine.

Best Regards,
Patrick


It's rather impossible to touch a nerve with me I assure you. Anyways you will soon see I was right. You should try to stay calmer it makes the hobby ever so much more enjoyable. ;)

Anyways you will soon see I was right.

that may very well be true. But that's beside the point. People aren't disputing your statements. Instead, they are asking if you can back it up.

If indeed you cannot tell anything because of some obligations that cannot be disclosed in public at this point, you should really keep it to yourself. Because what you are doing amounts to breach of that obligation, which can really put you in a poddle of really hot water.

Can I settle this for you once and for all?

I know for a fact that the new Elite doesn't use any linear amps at all. Nor does it use digital. It is a new technology that Pioneer just acquired from two galaxies away and it uses the 3rd cusin removed of the dark side. That's how it shaved off 15 lbs, or so.

Just trust me on this. What? you want to have facts? Well, I cannot tell you now. I have a nda with Pioneer and the dark side on that. I am not telling you for your own good. OK?
LOL! :D:D:D

Thanks for the levity millwood! Helped brighten my day!

Best Regards,
Patrick

MCACC and as a matter of fact any of the EQ systems currently in use completely collapse the soundstage and do far more bad than good. That being said the amps used in the 74 have an easily discernable difference in sound from the 56 itself not a particularly great sounding receiver. Both are also not overly good when used as a pre/pro UNLESS movies are by a large margin your priority.
And no I am not "high". :rolleyes:

Nate,

Do you have the same opinion on Audyssey MultEQ XT on 4806/5805? Just for curiosity....

It seems he does (though he mis-spelled it, I'm pretty sure he meant Audyssey):
"And oh yes the "vast majority" of friends and colleagues of mine, all owning extremely high end dear all share the same opinion of Audisset, YPAO and MCACC"

I don't care how many posts you have you're posting erroneous information.
Just so I know may I ask what the "erroneous information" was that I posted.

"How am I posting erroneous information? What have I said that you know as "law" and is not true? I never said the 74TXVi has digital amps, though you claim I did! I never said ALL speakers have a midbass hump, I said most consumer speakers including high end."

Thanks,
Patrick

Nate,

Do you have the same opinion on Audyssey MultEQ XT on 4806/5805? Just for curiosity....

Yes. It's probably the least destructive but still has major issues.

I hope you are able to share with us, nate, exactly what those issues are this time?

You two should get a room :rolleyes:

Monty, Have you figured out the HDMI issue?
Any luck getting the 74 to pass HDMI video, does it pass the audio with no video, or neither?

dc

Anyway, I took the day off due to having some contractors at the house and got to waste the last 8 hours of my life trying to get the 74 to pass HDMI to no avail. I am able to successfully connect both my 59AVi player via HDMI and a Comcast Digital/HD cable box via HDMI-DVI to my projector with perfect results, and I can connect the 59AVi via HDMI to the receiver and get audio only and the HDMI indicator illuminates properly. I can also connect the Comcast box via HDMI-DVI without the HDMI indicator flashing on/off. But I cannot get the receiver and the projector to work together.

I called Pioneer's help line and although the rep tried to be helpful as best he could, he was as stuck as I was as to why it won't pass HDMI.

I've tried every combination of components and cords, but I just can't get it to pass HDMI video through the receiver.

I'm very disappointed at this point and starting to wonder if I should have kept the 56TXi. Despite previous comments by others, I have found the new MCACC to be an improvement over an already competent receiver. Since I only use it as a pre/pro I can't really comment on the amp section, but it does do an impressive job with HT and from what I've listened to so far, an equally impressive job siwth SACD and DVD-A (as well as CD). The improvements in imaging and bass response is significantly noticeable between the two. It's just that the HDMI switching and conversion was the key feature that got me excited about "upgrading".

I'm to the point where I want to bring it in to the store and see if they'll let me connect it to a player and a monitor just to see if it's a problem with my receivers output or some kind of incompatibility between the receiver and the projector - which I think are the only two possible causes at this point. Either that, or see if they'll let me return it and try another 74.

I'm to the point where I want to bring it in to the store and see if they'll let me connect it to a player and a monitor just to see if it's a problem with my receivers output or some kind of incompatibility between the receiver and the projector - which I think are the only two possible causes at this point. Either that, or see if they'll let me return it and try another 74.

Monty:

Please do keep us posted as to what your end result is with the HDMI issue. I've had both the Sony HS-51 projector and the Elite 74TXVi on my wishlist for my upcoming theater room. I was veeeeeeery close to starting to pull out the old credit card and start buying, but your HDMI woes have me suddenly a little gunshy.

I'm going to post an actual question about this receiver, so maybe there can be a little less my Dad is stronger than you Dad arguing here.

Monty reported having trouble with HDCP compliance on the HDMI connection. He was able to get no picture on his projector when using the receivers HDMI switching. Has anyone else used the HDMI switching of this receiver? This is a relatively new area in receivers. I'm worried that this HDMI switching is going to open a whole new can of worms. Will we have to look up lists of which DVD players work with which Receiver, and so on, and so on. I want to get this particular receiver, and use it to switch between a DV 59 AVI and Expressvu 9200 Sat receiver. Will I have to worry about getting a picture on my Optoma H78 PJ? What will Monty have to do if it turns out that his particular group of components won't work through that receiver? What will I do if I have that problem?

This whole HDMI and HDCP thing is quite problematic. The studios and their desire for such strict copy protection is making it almost impossible to have universal compatibility between components. We as consumers are then stuck with a group of components that won't work with one another, and will likely have each company blaming the other for any incompatibility problems.

Anyway, I took the day off due to having some contractors at the house and got to waste the last 8 hours of my life trying to get the 74 to pass HDMI to no avail. I am able to successfully connect both my 59AVi player via HDMI and a Comcast Digital/HD cable box via HDMI-DVI to my projector with perfect results, and I can connect the 59AVi via HDMI and the Comcast box via HDMI-DVI to the receiver and get audio only without the HDMI indicator flashing on/off. But I cannot get the receiver and the projector to work together.
Monty,

Is there some type of selection on the 74TXVi for which Video monitor output it's using?
Maybe it defaults to the component out or the S-VHS output. Check your settings. I seem to remember a similar problem when I first tried to get component video to go through my 56TXi, and it ended up being a setting in the menu.

BR,
Patrick

"If indeed you cannot tell anything because of some obligations that cannot be disclosed in public at this point, you should really keep it to yourself."

What fun would that be?

It's done all the time, just check the pj forum for loads of hints and rumours from people who can't say more than they do.

I hope you are able to share with us, nate, exactly what those issues are this time?

Of course, he can't. He has already said that he is honoring a commitment to not discuss the product until its official launch. Then again, that did not prevent him from using this apparent "special" knowledge to denigrate this same piece of equipment in a public forum. So, he either knows nothing and is making it up or he knows a lot and, in spite of his promise, he has chosen to not only discuss but to "review" and deride the gear anyways.

I am also puzzled why someone with such high audio standards even chose to touch down on a thread about something so beneath him and his friends. Surely he is looking for the high-end discussions.

Until I have the opportunity to hear it for myself, I am going with the impressions of those who will offer documented comments (like Monty and, hopefully, Uzun). Even if he is 100% right about the product's performance, the lack of even a description of how the sound is now inferior offers no value to this or any other discussion.

I voiced my concern about this product when the MSRP was announced in the Ultimate AV article, so I do believe there could be some truth to a lower build quality and, possibly, even performance. But I also think that "Nate" just woke up this morning lonely and in need of some extra attention and that he is already conjuring up his next online persona.

Anyway, let's get back to the discussion of the product. Hopefully, DocDVD and M Code can share some insight into Pioneer's direction with these new receivers.

Bob

EDITED to add:

I do believe this is typical of Pioneer's ineffective marketing. There is still no formal launch and no information on Pioneer's website for a product which is already in the channel. If Nate's claims are true, then pioneer gets to react to what is being said rather than getting in front of the potential bad press. heck, and this one is easy: "These new receivers cost more to attain the same level of performance but also bring exciting new features to our products....blah, blah, blah."

What fun would that be?

Less fun, but more honorable.

The answers about many things are hiding in plain sight, which is the reason it is so easy for all of us who are not privy to the secrets to speculate so readily.

Bob

Monty,

Is there some type of selection on the 74TXVi for which Video monitor output it's using?
Maybe it defaults to the component out or the S-VHS output. Check your settings. I seem to remember a similar problem when I first tried to get component video to go through my 56TXi, and it ended up being a setting in the menu.

BR,
Patrick


Nope no video out settings to select. According to the manual , all video goes through all the monitor outs, the only exception is that if you use HDMI or HD-component, you have to use HDMI out (GGOD LUCK! IF YOU CAN FRIGGING GET IT TO WORK) or component out, respectively, becuase those 2 input types cannot be down-sampled.

Does anyone with the Denon 5806 or 4806 have the same problems with HDMI?

I think that Denon's implementation is also at 1.1 on receivers and 1.0 on players. Perhaps, someone with a similar setup to Monty's PJ and one of these receivers can provide a clue. If all three receivers (Yamaha, Denon and Pioneer) fail to pass the video through the receiver, then HDMI handshake would seem to be the culprit.

Bob

4806 works as advertised

Interesting about the prospect of the "new 76TXVi and 79TXVi".
My dealer contact, says Pioneer is saying there will be no 76TXVi only a 79TXVi flagship. Wonder where Nate got his info?
Also, my contact is saying if indeed there is a Pioneer problem with HDMI, Pioneer is saying they will issue a firmware upgrade.

Tom-

Are you in and out from HDMI 1.0 devices or 1.1?

Bob

Patrick-

Does Uzun have a 59avi? What is his display? I wonder if he is up-and-running yet? It would be mighty nice if we could help Monty figure this out as a way of saying thanks for his early impressions of the 74TXvi.

Bob

Monty,
I am also following your plight as I have ordered a 74 to come in next Tuesday (Magnolia). The HDMI pass-through is also mighty important to me.
Frankly, I would take it right back for a replacement; seems the easiest next thing to do after all the troubleshooting you've gone through.

Let me ask you this - do you see the OSM through HDMI ? In other words, forget pass-through. Can you get anything to display that's generated by the receiver, such as the setup screens ? (Yamaha 4600 doesn't send it throguh HDMI but the 74 should).

Does any sounds pass through ?

If that's a no, I would guess (or frankly, hope) the units HDMI is defective in some way. Happened to me with displays before.

By the way, how many optical & coax digitial audio outs and ins does it have ?

Best,
Dan

Nope no video out settings to select. According to the manual , all video goes through all the monitor outs, the only exception is that if you use HDMI or HD-component, you have to use HDMI out (GGOD LUCK! IF YOU CAN FRIGGING GET IT TO WORK) or component out, respectively, becuase those 2 input types cannot be down-sampled.

I can't get any type of video whatsoever to pass or come from the receiver, not the 59AVi via HDMI, not Comcast Digital/HD via HDMI-DVI, and not even the receiver's own OSD via HDMI. Everything works perfectly with component video, but it also did with the 56TXi I "upgraded" from.

The 59AVi via HDMI and the Comcast STB via HDMI-DVI all work perfectly when connected directly to the HS51 projector. And both the 59AVi and the Comcast STB will pass audio, even multichannel DD5.1 and DTS 5.1 through HDMI to the receiver with no problems, but as soon as I plug in the HDMI monitor out cable to my HS51 everything stops and the HDMI indicator starts blinking.

Maybe I've been lucky, but this is the first a/v component in 20 years that I've ever owned that did not work perfectly. The vast majority of the time I am able to get a new component up and running perfectly without even using the manual, as I am sure most guys here are. After awhile things become intuitive, especially if you stick with a specific brand. Maybe I'm spoiled, but I know I could leave my Bryston's turned on for years and they'd operate good as new, same with my M&K's. I guess that's what I get for buying something brand new - I get to be the guinea pig/beta tester. It just pisses me off that there's the caveat in the manual that says even though all the components are HDCP compliant they still might not work together. That's just frigging fantastic and really consumer friendly. Let's ask $1500 for a receiver, $1000+ for a universal player, and $3500+ for a projector but if they don't all get along, sorry. Good thing I didn't buy the Qualia...

I'm packing up the receiver tomorrow and taking it back and request that we test it with a 59AVi and an HDMI monitor. I don't think the MiniMag has in projectors, but they have some Pioneer Elite plasma's. I'm sure they'll all work together though...If you can't tell, I'm frustrated, I've had a couple of cocktails and I'm venting...

Dosers, 4 optical in's 2 optical outs, 2 digital coax in.

but as soon as I plug in the HDMI monitor out cable to my HS51 everything stops and the HDMI indicator starts blinking.

Monty-

Do you get OSD on the HDMI-out with no HDMI source connected or does the light flash with no sources connected and only the HDMI monitor-out? It could be an incompatibility between your PJ and the receiver but it sounds like it might be a bad HDMI port.

Bob

Monty,
good luck tomorrow in the store. And let us know!
I feel your pain, and as 'thankful' as I am that you are reporting all this, I completely realize hor frustrating it is. I have had things like this happen a lot (lot less luck than you apparently).
I really don't see how HDCP could play a role in simply displaying the OSD on the PJ, but then again, if the initial handshake fails.... Let's hope it's just a bad HDMI port and a replacement will take care of it.

Again, good luck. I gather no-one else on the board had got / hooked up their unit via HDMI yet?
I'll be happy to report on mine when it arrives, but a new TV I ordered is another 2 1/2 weeks out. My current set only does component which according to Monty seems to work....

Best,
Dan

My dealer contact, says Pioneer is saying there will be no 76TXVi only a 79TXVi flagship. Wonder where Nate got his info?

the dealer information i have received from a friend indicates no 76, as well as an upcoming 79 flagship. (i've seen the pioneer docs myself)

Patrick-

Does Uzun have a 59avi? What is his display? I wonder if he is up-and-running yet? It would be mighty nice if we could help Monty figure this out as a way of saying thanks for his early impressions of the 74TXvi.

Bob
Bob,

Yesterday uzun was just having his installer pull wires. I'm sure he is not up and running yet. Maybe he can chime in and connect the 74TXVi real quick to see if he has any problems.

Guys lets not jump the gun on thinking all 74TXVi's will have this problem. Let's see what Monty can find out tomorrow. Sorry you're having to go through this Monty, hopefully it's a fluke. Let's not judge to quickly here though! Pioneer has a pretty good history with reliability, but every now and then things happen. Even if it is a problem across the board, you can gurantee Pioneer will make it good. They are not one to keep promising a fix and not deliver.

Best Regards,
Patrick

the dealer information i have received from a friend indicates no 76, as well as an upcoming 79 flagship. (i've seen the pioneer docs myself)
Cool, looks like Nate was the one giving some "erroneous information" earlier:

All I can say is it is not digital and it is not an improvement in sound. Quite the opposite in fact. Wait for the 76 and 79.

They've gone downmarket in a big way but the soon to be announced flagships will be a large improvement over the current ones
Thanks for chiming in isadrones!

Best Regards,
Patrick

the dealer information i have received from a friend indicates no 76, as well as an upcoming 79 flagship. (i've seen the pioneer docs myself)

So, any information on the amplifier section? How did Pioneer manage a 10 lb diet while increasing the rated power?

Bob

the dealer information i have received from a friend indicates no 76, as well as an upcoming 79 flagship. (i've seen the pioneer docs myself)

A couple of points..
In their dealer announcements Pioneer has stated the 79TXVi will be out by year end.. Regarding the amplifiers in the new Elite vs the old.. They are analog, rated @ 30% more power than previous models but draw less AC wattage..

Yeah rite..
I don't think Pioneer is able to rewrite the book on Physics..
Current In and Current Out.. If less current is going in yet Pioneer specs higher power, this would suggest..... ;)
Pioneer has had their marketing staff use a revised spec standard..
To get a higher number than last year's model.. :rolleyes:

By the way Pioneer calls this revised spec standard High Energy Amplifier..

IMHO...
In the long run, all should be fine..
Pioneer amplifiers are usually pretty good so they will perform very well sonically.. And should have plenty of power and capable of driving most loudspeaker systems... :)

M Code-

Finally, someone who's information we can trust.

Don't you just hate those marketing departments. Nothing is impossible for them, it just requires a little imagination.

Bob

"The answers about many things are hiding in plain sight,..."

Um, right...

"... which is the reason it is so easy for all of us who are not privy to the secrets to speculate so readily."

My point is that I'd rather have the people who *are* privy to the secrets dribble out too little info than none at all.

the dealer information i have received from a friend indicates no 76, as well as an upcoming 79 flagship. (i've seen the pioneer docs myself)

sounds like the marketing department at Pioneer is under the same NDA with Pioneer as nate does: they cannot talk about their new and upcoming 76 series, which is why you didn't see it in the Pioneer's own marketing literature.

We should all trust Nate (not Pioneer BTW) that Pioneer is going to introduce the 76: Pioneer just doesn't know about it product lines as well as Nate does.

Don't ask for prooves, OK.

Not sure what "prooves" are but just wait for the announcement. There's a short lead time as there is still many 56TXi in the channel and it would hurt their sales if an announcement is made too early.

Sure. if we wait long enough, the sun will come out of the west too, :)

HDMI issues aside I would like some feedback on the 74txvi as more people get them, specifically MCACC, amp section, sound quality, etc. I know there are only Monty and uzun who have the 74txvi, but both are using it as a pre-pro.

As of now I do not have any HDMI equipped components but was ready to get the 59avi to replace my Sony 900v dvd player. Also upgrade my SA-8000 TW box with a 8300 and get a DVI blade for my Panasonic WD6UY.

But with the HDMI issues Monty is having maybe it is best to get the 74txvi as an obvious upgrade over my 3802. Then wait for HDMI 1.1 compatible dvd player (hopefully a Pioneer) and cable box. Or maybe its not a problem between 1.1 and 1.0 but it seems the people at HDMI and Pioneer do not seem to know either. Do the Denon 5805 or 4806 have HDMI issues also?

I've wanted to upgrade my receiver and dvd player for over six monthes now and everytime theres either a problem with a specific component (Denon 2910 and Yamaha 2500) or new product lines are coming out ( Yamaha 4600, Denon 3806-4306,74txvi). My Visa card is ready and willing but I do not want to pull the trigger if what I'm buying has issues right out of the box.

Bill

Sure. if we wait long enough, the sun will come out of the west too, :)
It will not be a long wait. They'll be on the shelves before Christmas.

Not sure what "prooves" are but just wait for the announcement. There's a short lead time as there is still many 56TXi in the channel and it would hurt their sales if an announcement is made too early.

I know I'm going to regret this but if Pioneer was worried about available 56txi's why would they release the 74txvi? Just a thought.

Bill

It's quite obvious, except to people on here, that it was never meant to replace the 56. It is clearly a lower end model.

It's quite obvious, except to people on here, that it was never meant to replace the 56. It is clearly a lower end model.

I do not recall saying it was replacing the 56txi or that it was better than it. My point was that if people go into a store to buy a new AVR they will probably buy the 74txvi over the 56txi for the HDMI switching, improved MCACC and slight increase in power.

I have not seen any posts or reviews doing a direct comparison between the 56txi and the 74txvi so I guess I'll wait for that to see how lower in quality it is. Then maybe it will be obvious to me too. Just curious Nate have you compared the two side by side, not on paper but actually hearing both?

Bill

In europe there will be an AX4 (replacing the AX5) and a AX2 replacing the 2014.

Perhaps the 74avi is the AX2?????????


At CEDIA all will be known if there will be 76 by christmas it has to be announced at CEDIA...

At CEDIA all will be known if there will be 76 by christmas it has to be announced at CEDIA...[/QUOTE]

daffyduck,

Very good point, I can wait a couple weeks to see what will be available.

Bill

Here the links to the 2 new products:

http://www.avland.co.uk/pioneer/vsxax4/vsxax4.htm

http://www.avland.co.uk/pioneer/vsxax2/vsxax2.htm

I do not recall saying it was replacing the 56txi or that it was better than it. My point was that if people go into a store to buy a new AVR they will probably buy the 74txvi over the 56txi for the HDMI switching, improved MCACC and slight increase in power.

I have not seen any posts or reviews doing a direct comparison between the 56txi and the 74txvi so I guess I'll wait for that to see how lower in quality it is. Then maybe it will be obvious to me too. Just curious Nate have you compared the two side by side, not on paper but actually hearing both?

Bill

Yes I said that I have compared them side by side.

The VSX AX2 seems to have hdmi as well - possibly this is the US 74 model, and the AX4 is the US 76 model?

Here the links to the 2 new products:

http://www.avland.co.uk/pioneer/vsxax4/vsxax4.htm

http://www.avland.co.uk/pioneer/vsxax2/vsxax2.htm
daffyduck (I like that name :) ), Yves, and others,

The VSXAX4 link was posted weeks ago by Sounds Simple (Bob). That is the 74TXVi (compare weight and features). The VSXAX2 is the 72TXV. Notice it does not have i.Link and the VSXAX4 does.

We've got two professional installers that heard it directly from Pioneer, M Code and DocDVD (I got an email from him last night) and another member all confirming there will only be the 79TXVi and no 76. Only Nate has some type of confirmation that there will be a 76TXVi. I guess we'll wait and see. Kind of makes sense that there would not be another TXVi version as the past two product cycles only had two with i.Link as well! Time will tell.

Anyway, these two that daffy pointed too are the products that are already out in the stores.

Best Regards,
Patrick

It's quite obvious, except to people on here, that it was never meant to replace the 56. It is clearly a lower end model.

It may be obvious to you but, since we have nothing more than your unsubstantiated claims (which seem at odds with your promise to not discuss the product), we really have nothing.

What is quite obvious to me is that you have made no meaningful contribution to this discussion. You have already broken your promise to not discuss the product and have even "reviewed" the performance of the product so you might as well share what you claim to know.

It certainly is possible that this product does not meet even the lowly standards of previous Pioneer gear. I was one of the first to question this with the lowering of MSRP and again when Monty shared the weight. But it is also true that these receivers are brought into an increasingly competitive market at this price point and this would be a stupid (but not impossible) move by Pioneer.

If all you can say is what you have said, you have said it and we have read it, and you really have nothing further to add to this discussion. If you are right, come back and remind us of your superior knowledge. If you are wrong, I am sure you already have your new username chosen.

Bob

Yes I said that I have compared them side by side.

I missed that post. What are differences in sound quality that you noticed in your comparison? I know you do not want to divulge your source but a least give us your impression of the 56txi against the 74txvi as to why you consider it a lower end receiver.

Bill

I missed that post. What are differences in sound quality that you noticed in your comparison? I know you do not want to divulge your source but a least give us your impression of the 56txi against the 74txvi as to why you consider it a lower end receiver.

Bill

I believe Nate's feelings, not just his knowledge of proprietary Pioneer designs, are also covered by the NDA he has with Pioneer.

So he cannot tell you his impression of the two AVRS, nor could he tell you how good the diner he had last night at the neighborhood grill.

ok, took some posts to be able to do this, but here:

http://ion.mine.nu/~atom/pioelite2.png

unless things have changed since this was released, i think it answers some questions.

ok, took some posts to be able to do this, but here:

http://ion.mine.nu/~atom/pioelite2.png

unless things have changed since this was released, i think it answers some questions.

I wonder why the MSRP on the 56, 54 and 52 are not consistent with the Pioneer website. Maybe this is MAP.

I also wonder why the 54-to-74 transition has the jog in the line.

Bob

I also wonder why the 54-to-74 transition has the jog in the line.

Probably because there's a $200.00 price bump from one to the other.

So he cannot tell you his impression of the two AVRS, nor could he tell you how good the diner he had last night at the neighborhood grill.[/QUOTE]

Yes now I understand. I'll have to risk it, the chicken or the steak? Oh well.

Bill

I'm packing up the receiver tomorrow and taking it back and request that we test it with a 59AVi and an HDMI monitor. I don't think the MiniMag has in projectors, but they have some Pioneer Elite plasma's. I'm sure they'll all work together though...If you can't tell, I'm frustrated, I've had a couple of cocktails and I'm venting....
I hope the cocktails helped last night Monty! We don't mind you venting at all, you've shared plently with us, the least we can do is listen! ;)

And for your sake I also hope you were able to figure out the issue with your 74TXVi today at Magnolias. Looking forward to your update.

Best Regards,
Patrick

Well, but in all fairness, the 74 IS a replacement for the 56, just as the 72 is a replacement for the 54. I am just making a factual SKU statement here; the 56 and 54 will no longer be available come September, according to both Ken Crane and Magnolia (who frankly I trust to be able to look up their order books).

For what it's worth, neither have a 76 in their order books (which goes to 12/05). I am NOT saying there ain't a 76 - just stating the fact that those 2 high-end dealers don't know anything about it.

At the Internationale Funkausstellung (IFA 05) Pioneer premiered the AX2 and AX4, but no 'AX6' model. Again, doesn't mean there isn't one...

I am not making a statement here as to if they are 'good' replacements (though I think the jury is still out) - just that materially they undoubtly are...

BEst,
Dan

It's quite obvious, except to people on here, that it was never meant to replace the 56. It is clearly a lower end model.

ok, took some posts to be able to do this, but here:

http://ion.mine.nu/~atom/pioelite2.png

unless things have changed since this was released, i think it answers some questions.

That chart cannot be correct: our famous Pioneer insider Nate has stated that there will be a 76, but that chart doesn't have it.

As nate must be correct, the chart cannot be correct.

That chart cannot be correct: our famous Pioneer insider Nate has stated that there will be a 76, but that chart doesn't have it.

As nate must be correct, the chart cannot be correct.
I think Millwood has it right! LOL :D:D:D

DocDVD has checked directly with Pioneer and here is what he told me via email about the 74TXVi amp section:

"It is a digital amp, therefore the smaller size. Less power, but more
headroom!"

I then asked him to elaborate on the type of digital amp, he said:

"Digital Switching and control. Class D in and Class B out."

Does this mean it's some type of "Hybrid" amp like I originally wondered?

Best Regards,
Patrick

Have ANY specs been announced on the 79TXi flagship? Will there be any changes to MCACC?

-Brian

[DocDVD has checked directly with Pioneer and here is what he told me via email about the 74TXVi amp section:

"It is a digital amp, therefore the smaller size. Less power, but more
headroom!"

I then asked him to elaborate on the type of digital amp, he said:

"Digital Switching and control. Class D in and Class B out."

Does this mean it's some type of "Hybrid" amp like I originally wondered?

Best Regards,
Patrick

Interesting. This contradicts what M Code has apparently gleaned from his sources.

millwood is certainly better qualified to comment but, from my limited knowledge, it sounds like a typical class D amp with MOSFET output stage. Pioneer is well-acquainted with these designs from their mobile audio group, and it certainly could explain the weight reduction. Sound quality will be something for each of us to decide.

Clearly, Pioneer would do both potential buyers and themselves a great service by getting the information on these receivers posted rather than letting the rumors swirl. As much as I trust DocDVD, I would like to see addiitonal corroboration of his information (the Pioneer people may not have their story straight).

On another front, I am hoping that Monty's absence means he has gotten things sorted and that he is enjoying sound and video from a 74TXvi.

Bob

Have ANY specs been announced on the 79TXi flagship? Will there be any changes to MCACC?

-Brian

Based on M Code's information, the new flagship will be announced at WCES in January.

Bob

[ As much as I trust DocDVD, I would like to see addiitonal corroboration of his information (the Pioneer people may not have their story straight).

On another front, I am hoping that Monty's absence means he has gotten things sorted and that he is enjoying sound and video from a 74TXvi.

Bob
Agreed on both fronts Bob!

Pioneer should be posting info on these new AVRs soon as they are already in stores. I would like to see more info too.

Also hoping Monty got things worked out!

BR,
Patrick

DocDVD has checked directly with Pioneer and here is what he told me via email about the 74TXVi amp section:

"It is a digital amp, therefore the smaller size. Less power, but more
headroom!"

Why would anyone trust Pioneer for information about their products over our Pioneer insider Nate? In this case, Pioneer simply doesn't know about their products as well as Nate does.

If Nate says that he has inside information about the amp that contradicts Pioneer's, we shall trust Nate.

Simple as that.

:)

Now, it is Nate's turn to tell us how ignorant Pioneer is.

Why would anyone trust Pioneer for information about their products over our Pioneer insider Nate? In this case, Pioneer simply doesn't know about their products as well as Nate does.

If Nate says that he has inside information about the amp that contradicts Pioneer's, we shall trust Nate.

Simple as that.

:)

Now, it is Nate's turn to tell us how ignorant Pioneer is.

haha.
:p

Based on M Code's information, the new flagship will be announced at WCES in January.

Bob

I sure hope Pioneers switches to multiple mic positions, a la Denon.

-Brian

Now, it is Nate's turn to tell us how ignorant Pioneer is.

I not so sure we will be hearing from "Nate" anytime soon. After having his "facts" deconstructed, he's most likely working on that new user ID.

I am not willing to bet that we have all the facts yet. I trust DocDVD but he would need to confirm his confidence in his source for me to feel comfortable with the information. It certainly makes sense of the reduced weight and power supply rating and the increase in power rating.

millwood, since you seem to know your way around the inside of an amp pretty well, does the information from Pioneer about the amp's design jibe with what we do know (the reduction in weight and power supply rating)?

The thing is, if Nate did hear the 74TXvi and didn't think it sounded as good, he should have offered that up as his opinion just as others surely will. I certainly have no problem with people not sharing my opinion....even if they are wrong. :)

Still no sign of Monty. :(

Bob