Well it looks like all of the major Plasma manufacturers will have 1080p TVs by the end of next year. Panasonic will be the first to market with their 65". My guess is that this new 65" model will be the first new Onyx Model.

http://www.displaybank.com/eng2004/news/sread.php?id=627

"Top three Japanese frontrunners, Matsushita, Hitachi and Pioneer, are poised to launch a set of full HD PDP TVs from the second half of this year. Matsushita aims to introduce its 65-inch products within this year, with Hitachi and Pioneer planning to commercialize their 50-inch and over products in the second half of 2006 and in time for the 2006 Germany World Cup, respectively."

Drool.

I'm there!

n.b. : The Hitachi and Pioneer references to 50-inch and over products.

Like some of us have said for years, plasma can push 1920 x 1080 down to at least that size. Some mfrs. believe 42 inch is also quite doable.

I would assume that if Panasonic rolls out a 65" 1080p plasma by the end of this year, that then they would work to releasing a 1080p 50" in the fall of 2006. Ay a premium price of course but since they are in intense competition with the 1080p RP and LCD TVs, the price may not be much of a premium compared to current prices. So by late 2007 could we see a 50" 1080p Panny commercial model for under $3K? Hmm, that might work for me...

So when we will see the first 65" Panansonic plasma vs 65" Sharp Aquos vs 65" size range 1080p DLP RP vs Sony 70" SXRD shootout? Someone must already be thinking about how to do this. :D

Here is a little more info on LG's entry.

http://www.displaybank.com/eng2004/news/sread.php?id=606

Outta my way. I'm gettin one from the first shipment.

I'm so excited, I'm still cleaning the crap off the floor. Lets hope its priced lower than $15K.

This is incredible news.
Now: does one choose the Pioneer 61" IF the blacks are better with the 1080p model, and with Pioneer's already excellent colour 'pop', OR the extra real estate of the Panny? That at least will be a nice decision to have to make!
Bish

Good question. That real estate is a big driver for me. But, we really have to wait for three (3) things to play out:

-Cost
-Specs
-Ship date


With Panny's first 65" it took about four (4) months for it to break below the $10k mark after being initially priced at $15k (info from nextag.com)

Some more info.

http://www.best-plasma-television.info/blog/date/2005/07/

The LG item sure says LG has a 1920 x 1080. The Panasonic items linked to just about say no such thing. The Financial Mirror one is gibberish and wrong.

I believe Panasonic has a 1920 x 1080 65 inch and I believe it's coming soon, but I would read little into those linked articles.

Fujitsu....hello......Fujitsu......are you there?

Fujitsu....hello......Fujitsu......are you there?

Fujitsu will take just use a panel from one of the manufacturers mentioned. They do have an 80" 1080p planned for the fall.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=542389

NEC will probably also take the Pioneer panel and do the same.

An 80" 1080p plasma, if it had blacks as deep enough as the Panasonic, would be essentially my perfect dream display. Unfortunately I'm assuming the Fujitsu will be outrageously expensive for the near future, and I have doubts about the black levels given Fujitsu's previous home-grown panels.

An 80" 1080p plasma, if it had blacks as deep enough as the Panasonic, would be essentially my perfect dream display. Unfortunately I'm assuming the Fujitsu will be outrageously expensive for the near future, and I have doubts about the black levels given Fujitsu's previous home-grown panels.

According to the article the panel is from Samsung.

An 80" 1080p plasma, if it had blacks as deep enough as the Panasonic, would be essentially my perfect dream display. Unfortunately I'm assuming the Fujitsu will be outrageously expensive for the near future, and I have doubts about the black levels given Fujitsu's previous home-grown panels.

Rich,

I am very pleased with my 65. I think there is only one area that has proved problematic. The panel is very sensitive to noise in the darker areas at about 5%. I can reproduce this using Judder Test by selecting different RGB levels. With a clean signal, it is fine. Add analog or digital noise and it shows up.

Pioneers have been a bit cleaner and it will be interesting to see how well they do with the gen 6 panels. I suspect they will have to put a much greater effort into producing smooth grays scales when they are mapping them onto a 1080p Panel.

I was toying with a "Show me your gray scales" thread. What do you think?

-- Rich

Pioneers have been a bit cleaner and it will be interesting to see how well they do with the gen 6 panels. I suspect they will have to put a much greater effort into producing smooth grays scales when they are mapping them onto a 1080p Panel.
-- Rich

In the past Pioneer avoided the worst noise by not producing the dark grey levels that the Panasonic did. It will be interesting to see how they compare if they are producing the same deep blacks/greys.

Rich,


I was toying with a "Show me your gray scales" thread. What do you think?

-- Rich

Great idea :)

Gray scale is probably the least understood and hardest to set aspect of calibrating a display: yet it is the first and most important step to a proper calibration

Please do it!

Rich,

I am very pleased with my 65. I think there is only one area that has proved problematic. The panel is very sensitive to noise in the darker areas at about 5%. I can reproduce this using Judder Test by selecting different RGB levels. With a clean signal, it is fine. Add analog or digital noise and it shows up.

Pioneers have been a bit cleaner and it will be interesting to see how well they do with the gen 6 panels. I suspect they will have to put a much greater effort into producing smooth grays scales when they are mapping them onto a 1080p Panel.

I was toying with a "Show me your gray scales" thread. What do you think?

-- Rich

Yes, my experience essentially agrees with yours. The Pioneers I think do have some better handling of noise in the lower areas of their gray scale (although of course they never went as deep). I'm betting the new 6gen Pioneers will have a pretty nice handling of the (even lower) gray scale/noise too.

As I said I'm quite excited by the announcement of the new 65" 1080p Panny plasma. But what worries me is this: Will they (likely) drop the current lower-res version of the 65" which has been steadily heading south towards affordability to me, and replace it with the 1080p model? And will the 1080p model command a premium price, rocketing it back up into "premium, rich-guy-only" territory. That would be a bummer, and would put a dent in my "big plasma" dream for a while.

I wonder if we'll ever see a Commercial 1080p plasma or will the 720p be "good enough" for the business user.

I wonder if we'll ever see a Commercial 1080p plasma or will the 720p be "good enough" for the business user.

I sure hope so. I prefer the commercial version for Home Theater. Greater flexibiltiy. The screen is Plenty big so the added resolution is extremely useful.

-- Rich

I wonder if we'll ever see a Commercial 1080p plasma or will the 720p be "good enough" for the business user.

I would think they'd produce the 1080p commercially as well, just like they have all their other panels. The industrial uses are in general considered even more demanding (notice how there is easier access to fine-tuning picture controls on the industrial models vs what is offered in the consumer models?).

Panasonic markets their plasmas to the film/tv production market as well. Plasmas are being adopted more and more in film/tv post production. My pal's post production facility just bought a plasma for clients to view their work on, necessitating the highest quality. Likewise, my post production facility will be installing a plasma for use in one of the smaller mix theaters. As well, HDTV productions are using plasmas. For instance the team who produces the Grammys in Hi-Def used Panasonic plasmas for their HD monitors. Therefore, I would expect the industrial market to be just as rich a market for selling a panel that "shows you everything in your source material" as a home market (if not even more so).

Just my thoughts.

Kind of a general question.

Will 1080i almost definitely look better than 720p on these 1080p panels?

Kind of a general question.

Will 1080i almost definitely look better than 720p on these 1080p panels?

If they use a decent scaler in the Plasma, 1080i should look noticably better on a 1080P panel. 480i looks very good on a 480P panel.

Will 1080i almost definitely look better than 720p on these 1080p panels?
Movies: Almost definately. Video: Depends very much on the quality of the deinterlacer.

If they use a decent scaler in the Plasma, 1080i should look noticably better on a 1080P panel. 480i looks very good on a 480P panel.

Yes, but will 720p look worse since these signals need to be upconverted?

Yes, but will 720p look worse since these signals need to be upconverted?

Again it depends on the scaler, but I doubt it. 720P (1280x720) currently requires some scaling to 1366x768 but since it is already progressive it is not that difficult.

-- Rich

Did anyone catch which gen this panel is?

So, that begs the question, if and when most flat panels (and TVs) become 1920x1080, will ABC and ESPN switch to 1080i?

Probably not, since fast motion should do better with progressive broadcasts.
They also have a big investment in equipment.

-- Rich

Well the news we've been waiting for finally arrived. Even though expected still exciting as the next major milestone in plasma development ! The 65 Panny current version has my vote for best overall size vs PQ of any display type. Price will be an issue though, we'll have to see where those new Sony 50" & 60" SXRD RPTV's with the 'downrezzed pricing' end up this fall. The only negative I can see is yet another purchase delay for yours truly. 1080P the Holy Grail, cant wait to find out.

Trunorth

RichB:

Are you going to upgrade your plasma? I remember when you bought that monster and was wondering if you need the "1080p juice". (Coined the phase myself. You like it?).

Just curious.

RichB:

Are you going to upgrade your plasma? I remember when you bought that monster and was wondering if you need the "1080p juice". (Coined the phase myself. You like it?).

Just curious.

No. I have not plan to upgrade my 65 unless the following occurs:

- I have a huge windfall profit this year :)
- The new 65 is available at about the price of my current 65
- They improve black levels and gray scales significantly

It is easier to sell the wife on an upgrade when the panel is bigger :)

-- Rich

You could do a covert switch. She wouldn't even notice.

Hide the box and tell her you cleaned the dust off the screen. ;)

You could do a covert switch. She wouldn't even notice.

Hide the box and tell her you cleaned the dust off the screen. ;)

Clever. Dastardly clever....but it just might work......

You could do a covert switch. She wouldn't even notice.

Hide the box and tell her you cleaned the dust off the screen. ;)

Hide the box. Are you kidding, the thing is huge. I keep the current one under the cat. She will never find it there ;)

-- Rich

So, that begs the question, if and when most flat panels (and TVs) become 1920x1080, will ABC and ESPN switch to 1080i?

By the time most TVs become 1920x1080, you can expect 3840 X 2160 (or higher) to be ready for release.

By the time most TVs become 1920x1080, you can expect 3840 X 2160 (or higher) to be ready for release.

Maybe, but it's going to be an awfully tough sell as returns really begin to diminish before then.

And, btw, in regards to the other post, ABC and ESPN and FOX will be using 720p for a long, long while.

Oh what a difference 24 hours can make. Sony's introduction of the new SXRD XBR series looks impressive. Improved micro panels indeed better specs than the Qualia 006 ( smaller sizing, smaller pitch, better fill, better response time and CR). 50 and 60" versions at MSRP of US $4000 & $5000. Unless Panny gets really price competitive with their plasma's these Sony's now look like the ones to beat for overall PQ value. Clearly there are still the aesthetic issues but this Fall is shaping up to be interesting. Rich looks like there will be a sequel to your original Qualia vs Panny 65 comparison test this time Qualia replaced by XBR. Emissive enthusiasts be prepared, at least until the 65 Panny 1080P arrives and then get ready to see your friendly loan officer at the bank. What's next ? Check back in 24 hours !

Do you have a link to the introduction?

Yeah Trunorth, but it looks like some people think the new Sammy 1080p set may be kickin' the Qualia's butt. There's always sumthin' huh?

Rich. having seen both, I have to agree. I will keep my 50" Panny nonetheless.

Maybe, but it's going to be an awfully tough sell as returns really begin to diminish before then.



My comment was partly tongue-in-cheek - I should have used a smilie. My point was that such a state (all TVs 1080p) as proposed was a long way off, and that by then we may truly have wall-video (you pick the wall) that will have much higher resolution than what we regard as SOTA today.

Rich. having seen both, I have to agree. I will keep my 50" Panny nonetheless.

Both the Qualia and the Samsung?

I wish I didn't have a jones for plasma, seeing as a Panny 1080p plasma will be more expensive than a RPTV. But darn it, 65" of 1080p plasma just has me drooling...and my bank account quivering in fear.

My comment was partly tongue-in-cheek - I should have used a smilie. My point was that such a state (all TVs 1080p) as proposed was a long way off, and that by then we may truly have wall-video (you pick the wall) that will have much higher resolution than what we regard as SOTA today.

I hope so. I still think the grail will be tiled OLEDs, set the array however big you want it to be, change size per the content being displayed.

I feel like it's still a decade away, however.

Yes Rich, both, side by side in fact. At this point, I do not have the room for a 65" plasma anyway and the 50PHD7UY has an awesome picture.

Not trying to soften anyones erection and I don't believe Panasonic would be so stupid, but I want confirmation of the new 1920x1080 displays accepting a 1080p input via HDMI/DVI-HDCP.

Not trying to soften anyones erection and I don't believe Panasonic would be so stupid, but I want confirmation of the new 1920x1080 displays accepting a 1080p input via HDMI/DVI-HDCP.

You didnt burst any bubbles. In fact, nothing is fully confirmed yet. All this info has been pulled from websites and other online sources. To date there has not been an official press release.

It's a waiting game, but I think many people believe the next model will indeed accept a 1080p signal.

Ooooo....just think...attach this puppy to a Dragonfly...Ooohhh ...my erection.... ;)

The email notification came too quickly :D to include your edited post:

(original)
"You didnt soften my erection. In fact, nothing is fully confirmed yet. All this info has been pulled from websites and other online sources. To date there has not been an official press release..."

vs

(edited)
"You didnt burst any bubbles. In fact, nothing is fully confirmed yet. All this info has been pulled from websites and other online sources. To date there has not been an official press release..."


Now that we have a heads up :D as to how quickly the notification system works and I've stroked :D this post for enough adolescent hummer :D ...humor, I mean humor, I think it's time to shoot :D a reply!

Well, all that being said... was tehre a date? Wife and I are looking for 65 Pannie around November.... Wouldn't that be sweet if this were available...

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/business/20050820TDY01003.htm

Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. will start marketing a 65-inch plasma television worldwide toward the end of the year for less than 1 million yen--half the price of existing models--The Yomiuri Shimbun learned Friday. An official announcement is expected from Matsushita on Thursday.
Matsushita has reduced the size of the phosphors, achieving the full high vision standard of 1,920 pixels (horizontally) by 1,080 pixels (vertically). A pixel--which stands for picture element--is a single point in a graphic image.
Now is that nice, or is it nice?

Holy SH*T,

Are we talking about a 1080P 65" panel with a $9000 list price :D

-- Rich

Amazing. Can't wait.

Although this line gave me a snicker:

A source said Matsushita's plasma TVs had finally caught up with LCD TVs in terms of picture quality.

Well. Finally! ;)

So who will be the first to get this beast?

Although this line gave me a snicker:
Yeah, stumbled over that line, too. Probably it's a mis-translation or a bad quote. Probably the Panasonic guy meant to say: "Finally the resolution advantage of LCD is gone".

So who will be the first to get this beast?
Of course we'll all first patiently wait for Rich's review...

:D

Will Panasonic still make their previous model 65"? I wonder what digital cable would look like on this panel (non-hd)?

Will Panasonic still make their previous model 65"? I wonder what digital cable would look like on this panel (non-hd)?

Big and fuzzy...:D

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/business/20050820TDY01003.htm

radarblip,

The current 65 has the lower contrast rating of 3000:1, in marketing speak of course :)

Hopefully, they will increase it.

I would have to see some improvement in noise in the dark areas and gray scales to warrant an upgrade. I think the the noise is the achilles heal of the 7 series panels.

It is also interesting that they appear to be referring to the consumer list pricing. I wonder about commercial units cost and availability.

-- Rich

madshi
Nice catch! :)

And I agree, it may be a translation glitch. Matsushita knows damn well they're ahead of LCD in picture quality: it's the resolution issue that LCD has led in, but not for long. ;)

Yes, Rich, get yourself in tip-top shape for a review. Plenty of carrots, brocoli, spinach and squash for the next few months. And I expect an Adobe .pdf documentaton of your lasik surgery in my email bin by Friday 9am. :D

Was already posted in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=569102

Threads Merged!

Dave

This is too good to be true. If everything I want is available, then something is wrong:

A 1080p panel w/ 1920x1080 resolution for $9K in 4th quarter 2005?

One of the above qualifiers must be wrong. I especially just don't understand how they can start selling for $9K.

Whose taking pre-orders?

Rich, I hope it gets better too.

I now have scaled down cardboard cut outs of the 42, 50 and 65. That pretty much takes the fun out upgrading to the 50" every time I see what a huge jump in size it would be from my 42 to a 65.

Did the same thing with newspaper - I thought I was alone. :eek:

[QUOTE=assJack1]This is too good to be true. If everything I want is available, then something is wrong:
A 1080p panel w/ 1920x1080 resolution for $9K in 4th quarter 2005?
One of the above qualifiers must be wrong. I especially just don't understand how they can start selling for $9K. QUOTE]

Pehaps we should treat this like a reporter: Wait for a second source :)

-- Rich

let's confirm that it can accept 1080p over HDMI and i might feel a surge of pre-buy excitement... :p

Did the same thing with newspaper - I thought I was alone. :eek:

I did it right after my first encounter with the Panny beast. :p

The impact of a 65" plasma image over a 42" and even a 50" is truly dramatic. It inspires a Keanu Reeves level of "whoa." It's a wall o' plasma. In fact, like I mentioned earlier, I find the 65" even makes a significant difference in scale vs a 61" plasma.

"I especially just don't understand how they can start selling for $9K."

Maybe plasma manufacturers see flat panel LCD as more of a threat than first thought? Plasma prices are dropping, but so are prices for LCD. Could a more "equalized" price stand-off be at hand? Look at all of the new LCD flat panels that are now out or scheduled for release which have 1920x1080 resolution.

I said in 2004 that plasma needs to get to full HD resolution in 2005 due to LCD's quick path to full HD resolution (I'm speaking of LCDs that can be used for HT -- 37" and up, not computing). Maybe this "Holy Grail" is something that has a bit more resonance than was previously thought and along with the price drops in LCD-land is causing plasma manufacturers to get their asses moving on both fronts?

Samsung has released press information about their technological advancements and how they'll be able to get into the 1920x1080 ballgame quickly and easily. LG already has with their limited edition 7x" model. Maybe that struck a chord with Matsushita and Pioneer, thus they felt a need to pursue the in-roads to higher resolution displays. Of course, what makes me skeptical of that is the fact that Samsung's word is pretty much worthless when it comes to launch dates and their "advancements"/"innovations" tend to have more strings than an entire aisle of tampons.

I don't know that it's too good to be true. There's a 70% increase in glass and what's apparently going to be a 125% gap in price if $9000 is to be believed.

I could see that kind of spacing between the 50 and 65. This is especially true because at some point, the spacing will be likely around 75%. Glass is only part of the cost, after all.

If the Panny consumer 1080p panel retails for $9k, then Panny had best ramp up the production line ASAP as dealers will be unable to keep these bad boys in stock.
Rogo, could this really be true; $9k?

So Thursday is press release day?

Bishman, why not?

I don't mean to be rude to anyone, but the plasma people have been seeing this all along. Sure, some have more visibility than others (e.g. Samsung SDI can see what the LCD division is planning at least to some extent), but all have been told -- and have been telling people -- than 25% price declines per year would exist for both plasma and LCD at least through 2007.

What's happening is entirely consistent with what was expected. As for LCD, I'd love for them to get the big sizes cranked up and force the action even more.

I kinda figured that for a new panel with increased pixel density and new circuitry that the panel would be a premium first. Taking other large 60", 61", 65" and 70" plasma into account, the price would (based upon current pricing with a little hand waving) start out around $15k. This based upon the current 65" panny being out for a year+ and can be had for around $10K - $12K).

Why am I slightly hard headed about this? Well this is a completely new type of large panel plasma...and using childhood through adult experience all indications suggest that when a new product that is in demand (and new) comes out, the first part of the products life usually commands a premium.

If the google translation is correct, the new plasma will break into market below at or below what the current model commands. This is very interesting indeed.

Off to find some 65" capable furniture...

"...and can be had for around $10K - $12K)."

I checked 3 forum sponsers. All were under $9.5k and one was just about kissin' $9k.

"Off to find some 65" capable furniture..."

Plenty at my house. You're welcome to park it here anytime. Ya can even hang on one of my walls if it suits ya.

I'll add that Panasonic has actually been doing a great deal more footwork re: the next gen formats than any of the other members of the group (yes, even Sony). Matsushita (their parent company) is supposed to have set up or is setting up a Blu-Ray disc production facility (though not really intended for stamping out movies, but that topic is not really for this forum).

What better way to bust the balls of the display/player competition than by introducing a $9k 65" 1920x1080 plasma display that handles a 1080p24 HDMI signal from a Panasonic Blu-Ray player.

Now, would that be a demo or what! :cool:

Saw the current Panny 65" again yesterday at my local A/V High-End emporium. (I've lost count how many times I've viewed it since it came out). As usual, I sat mesmerized by HD on the thing. I can look at lots of HD displays, acknowledge they look great and still "walk away." But I find when I'm watching this thing it's the display equivalent of crack - I can't tear myself away from staring at the image. No matter how many times I see it. That's a very good sign. The 42/43/50" plasmas from LG, Pioneer and Panasonic looked terrific, but the experience of a 65" plasma is simply in another ball-park. It just looks real-life big like you can fall into the image.

It's amazing to think the HD image could get even better (if even incrementally) with the upcoming higher-res 1080p version. For me the promise of the 1080p model isn't simply that we will get a bit more resolution for HD. It's also the finer pixel structure, combined with the extra resolution. I really like getting a "big screen" experience and so like to move as close to the picture as I can get without seeing degradation. A finer pixel structure, combined with good scaling/HD signals and the upcomming HD DVD standard should allow me to achieve that even more than the current 65" model.

BTW, does anyone know if anyone makes an articulated arm mount for the Panasonic 65" plasma?

Every week seems to bring another revelation in the plasma business. This one in particular, cant wait to see the new pricing on the Panasonic commercial models and whether this brings the current 65 pricing down as well. The allure of 1080p at 65 is indeed a dream, for the slight loss in contrast I'll take the improved resolution in HD. Initial pricing on the 65 1080p leaves me more curious by the day.
Rich you ought to write ad copy for Panasonic, every time I read one of your narratives I want to run out and buy that 65.

Do we know if this model is going to be the new 65PHD8UK? In other words, will the new, yet unannounced, 65PHD8UK be 1920x1080p (maybe I answered my own question, since it is still yet unannounced)? Thanks.

Rich you ought to write ad copy for Panasonic, every time I read one of your narratives I want to run out and buy that 65.

Maybe he already is.... ;)

TimV - I think you may well have answered the question. Given that Panny is going 1080p on the 65 doesnt seem to make any sense to keep the current commercial edition or do minor upgrades. Still I expected some price relief on the current 65. Just saw the price drops in the U.S. on the 42's and the 50 and all I can say is wow ! The choices now seem to be 42ED vs 50 vs 65 1080p, I took the 42HD out because the price walk to the 50 would seem to justify going straight to the 50. Guess we'll have to wait on the $ 65 1080p. I may end up with the 50 and replace it with the 65 in a few years as the pricing on the 65 drops to a more reasonable level unless Panny knocks everyone's socks off with a low ball price right out of the gate. Anticipation......

Wojtek - As to RH's employment status with Panasonic, all I can say is he's right the 65 is as good as it gets right now , 1080p will take it up a notch.

The allure of 1080p at 65 is indeed a dream, for the slight loss in contrast I'll take the improved resolution in HD. Initial pricing on the 65 1080p leaves me more curious by the day.


Are you certain there will be a drop in contrast between the 1080p and the current model? (Assuming that's what you mean). I haven't seen contrast specs for the 1080p model announced anywhere.

Perhaps you are extrapolating from the ED vs HD contrast ratio? As I understand it, it's harder to get the same brightness out of a reduced pixel size. The Panny 42" ED has the 4000:1 rating vs the 3000:1 rating of the 42" HD model for this reason. The black levels are (should be) the same, but the peak brightness is higher due to the larger pixels on the ED model, increasing the contrast ratio. In practice, I don't see much brightness difference between the ED/HD panels. I find the HD panels plenty bright.

My older 4UY model was rated at 3000:1 contrast, I believe, and I have to crank down the brightness as it is. So I personally wouldn't be concerned if the 65" comes in around the same contrast.

As well, I thought I'd heard that plasma manufacturers like Matsushita were working on a combo of decreased pixel size and increased brightness. (Not sure if that's panned out).

One thing I noticed last time watching the Panny 65": the black levels didn't strike me as looking quite as deep as the 42" Panny models. I'd never noted that before really, and didn't have anything personally to do with the picture settings, so who knows? But I wonder if it's possibly true. It could also be just a perceptual thing. Since a bright image next to the blacks will make the blacks look deeper, the smaller panel has that effect of putting bright areas closer to the dark areas. By that I mean, on a small panel the images are necessarily squashed together in a smaller space with the darker areas of the image being in relatively closer proximity to the bright areas (increasing the apparent contrast/darks). Whereas the same dark/shadow area on the 65" is really BIG and so the bright areas don't have as much of the proximity/contrast effect.

Whether any of that is true or not, the 65" nonetheless has deep enough blacks even for a black level fiend like me.

I think the sheer size of the 65" panel will more than compensate for any (real or perceived) loss of CR.

Exciting times are indeed ahead.

65" 1080p Panny this year, 61" 1080p Pio with improved CR (before 2006 soccer Worldcup), first sightings of 50" SED (hopefully 2006).

Anybody else feeling like X-mas is near?:D

One thing I noticed last time watching the Panny 65": the black levels didn't strike me as looking quite as deep as the 42" Panny models. .

I think that the black levels are about the same, but since there is much more surface area a dark scene will put out more light.

-- Rich

How many times have we heard a CEO state on Friday afternoon: "the rumors of this company being for sale are utterly untrue". The next Monday, the company is sold and many employees are laid off.

In this case we have Mr. Bill Schindler, Panasonic's vice president of electrical engineering taking a false know-it-all position while his engineers are developing products he says we don't need!

Quote from June 16, 2005:
"One interesting point of discussion was human visual acuity. According to Schindler, the human eye can resolve pixels 1mm across at a distance of 10 feet, and the optimal seating distance is just beyond where you can see individual pixels. This is critical when deciding if you really need a 1080p display. According to his acuity numbers, the optimum seating distance for a 45-inch 1080p display is around 6 feet; a 50-inch display requires around 7 feet, and a 71-inch display needs about 10 feet. Of course, a 720p (or 768p) display requires a longer seating distance, and in many real-world home environments with a seating distance of around 10 feet, there is no need to spend the extra money for a 1080p panel measuring less than 70 inches diagonally."

http://ultimateavmag.com/news/061605Panasonic/

So why is everyone so excited about a product you don't really need (according to this industry "expert")?

Do you think Mr. Schindler was being honest and ethical? Or was he was simply spinning facts to revive sagging 720 plasma sales?

Note: post typed using a 1920*1200 resolution LCD display that I love but apparently don't "need".

RH, I've yet to find an articulating mount for big boys. If it's being mfg., I'd sure like to know. Perhaps once these 60+" Plasmas become plentiful & popular we'll see more mounting options. Also, noting the weight of the Panny 65"er, I imagine you would need to do major prep work to the mounting wall itself prior to hanging. Still, it would be worth it to me as the articulating mount are about as cool as it gets.

This is critical when deciding if you really need a 1080p display. According to his acuity numbers, the optimum seating distance for a 45-inch 1080p display is around 6 feet; a 50-inch display requires around 7 feet, and a 71-inch display needs about 10 feet. Of course, a 720p (or 768p) display requires a longer seating distance, and in many real-world home environments with a seating distance of around 10 feet, there is no need to spend the extra money for a 1080p panel measuring less than 70 inches diagonally."

http://ultimateavmag.com/news/061605Panasonic/

So why is everyone so excited about a product you don't really need (according to this industry "expert")?


Personally, as I wrote, I like to get as close as possible. The current Panny 65 actually still looks very nice at 9 feet but that's pushing it. I think the added res of the 1080p could look even better at that distance (with good sources).

"Do you think Mr. Schindler was being honest and ethical? Or was he was simply spinning facts to revive sagging 720 plasma sales?"

False dichotomy. The answer is pretty much neither.

He was probably being somewhat honest and somewhat ethical, and also covering the fact he had no 1080p product. But 720p plasma sales aren't sagging at all.

And besides, you set up a bogus strawman.

What's the weight of the 65" PDP? Is it over 150 lb?

Personally, as I wrote, I like to get as close as possible. The current Panny 65 actually still looks very nice at 9 feet but that's pushing it. I think the added res of the 1080p could look even better at that distance (with good sources).
Let's say you got the 65" at home. Which viewing distance would you use? Those 9 feet? Or is that 9 feet only the "wow is that great" distance, while in every day use you'd rather go some feet further back? What viewing distance do you think you would use for the 1080p 65" in every day use? I know, everybody is different, I would just like to hear your opinion. You know, THX would recommend a viewing distance of 7.3 feet for a 65" display. That sounds *extremely* near. But could it be actually reasonable with a 1080p 65" plus one of those new top of the shelf external scalers?

Personally, I want one of those full resolution 1080p displays mainly to be able to get as near as possible. Or in other words: As I've a fixed viewing distance of currently 7,5 feet, I want to have a plasma which is as big as possible... :) But I fear 65" might be a good bit too big... (too bad)

Panasonic unveiled the new 65" full HD Plasma TV (TH-65PX500) in Japan today.

## Photo
1. http://www.itmedia.co.jp/lifestyle/articles/0508/25/news038.html
2. http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050825/pana1.htm

## Price comparision with Sharp 65" 1080p in Japan market
1. Estimated street price of the new Panasonic 65" 1080p PDP (sale on Nov 2005) : not exceeding $9004.
2. Current street price of Sharp 65" 1080p LCD (sale on Aug 2005) : $11,517 as of today.

Thanks, neoaudio!

Contrast still 3000:1.

The Sharp is already streeting at $11K? That's great news!

Thanks for confirming that the Panasonic 65 that'll be $9K is the 1080p model. Wow.

Is that $9k the MSRP or is it the expected street price?

I'll be watching it at 10-11'.

Funny how SED now has faded into the background was this not the next display we were all waiting for!

cheers laurie

Panasonic Introduces World's First 65-inch 1080p Plasma TV (http://www.panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/en050825-7/en050825-7.html)

Wow. Wow.

I am starting to work on the spousal approval right now.

Darn this is going to be expensive - wife recently said she fancies a Beemer Z4. :eek:

Time for a HELOC loan..... :D

GEEZE,,,,,thats the one to get.

Anybody wana buy my brand spankin new 50" Panny 50u,, I have a feeling Im guna be selling it come Nov. 1st.

Davyo

This plasma is in the Viera trim on the pics.

Do you guys think it will come out as Viera in the US in November?

Or perhaps as Onyx, so they can charge more?

Can you imagine it as TH-65PHD8UK no-frills 1080p commercial display streeting for $5-6K?

My head is spinning...:D

...and what is this? 14-bit color in the new 65"?

>>In addition, color management is done in 3 dimensional space, the "vivid color creation", エンハンサ of 1 dot unit (contour revision) technology "sub pixel controller", holding down animated picture false contour noise, clearing it actualizes the picture "motion pattern noise reduction", faithfully it reproduces the detail of image "インテリジェントエンハンサー" and transaction of operation the to maximum of 14 bits by the fact that it converts it made texture small-scale gradation expression possible, "14 bit noise reduction" and so on, the same company individual various high picture quality conversion technologies are loaded.<<

What's the weight of the 65" PDP? Is it over 150 lb?

The current 7UY weighs 180 lbs. You need 3 people to wall mount it.

Take off your belts :)

-- Rich

Let's say you got the 65" at home. Which viewing distance would you use? Those 9 feet? Or is that 9 feet only the "wow is that great" distance, while in every day use you'd rather go some feet further back? What viewing distance do you think you would use for the 1080p 65" in every day use? I know, everybody is different, I would just like to hear your opinion. You know, THX would recommend a viewing distance of 7.3 feet for a 65" display. That sounds *extremely* near. But could it be actually reasonable with a 1080p 65" plus one of those new top of the shelf external scalers?

Personally, I want one of those full resolution 1080p displays mainly to be able to get as near as possible. Or in other words: As I've a fixed viewing distance of currently 7,5 feet, I want to have a plasma which is as big as possible... :) But I fear 65" might be a good bit too big... (too bad)

At 7.5 feet it would be huge. I have a 657UY and sit about 12 feet from it. No problems. There should be no problem at 8 feet with a 1080P panel.

-- Rich

Funny how SED now has faded into the background was this not the next display we were all waiting for!

cheers laurie SED has always been 2007 at the earliest.

This agressively priced Panny is great news.

larry

[QUOTE=rogo]"Do you think Mr. Schindler was being honest and ethical?
He was probably being somewhat honest and somewhat ethical, and also covering the fact he had no 1080p product.
QUOTE]
Thank you for (grudgingly and correctly) answering the question.

The fact is seedy industry tactics like this are expected to increase. I'd bet Mr. Schindler actually felt uneasy about the situation, but had no choice, as his marching orders came from above.

A great deal of this in response to the newly educated, informed and performance demanding consumer. Thanks go to the Internet (especially AVS forum) and to advances in the other competing display technologies.

This is all around great news. Within a year - year and half, things should get very interesting. The 1080p DLPs will have worked out the major kinks of the first gen. 1080p Plasmas will continue to drop in price (7.5k msrp within a year, probably 7k though still out of my price grange). LCDs will continue to do their thing.

Will there be any room for SEDs? I think when SEDs release pricing will get extremely aggressive.

*grabs popcorn and sits on the fence for a bit longer*

Let's say you got the 65" at home. Which viewing distance would you use? Those 9 feet? Or is that 9 feet only the "wow is that great" distance, while in every day use you'd rather go some feet further back? What viewing distance do you think you would use for the 1080p 65" in every day use?


In my scenario I already have a Panasonic 42" ED model in one room that would do "everyday" duties - SD watching, movies for the kids or whatever. I wanted to free myself from trying to find a display that acts as a jack-of-all-trades - that is one that we'd use to watch everything and which would have to look good with standard definition (SD) programming.

I'd be putting the 65" Panny in a dedicated room, for watching movies/HD. Therefore the source quality will generally always be high, allowing me a closer viewing distance overall. (And even better when HD DVD gets here). If I were also going to watch SD programming on it, my viewing distance would really have to vary. I'd have to get a lot further back to make SD look any good (although I'm very surprised how well the current 65" model looks with SD).

But given my experience with my current plasma I'd really like the Panny 65" on an articulating arm. Being able to pan the plasma left/right is great, but also I really like being able to play with viewing distances. If it's a really good source it's a cinch to just pull the display a bit closer for a more "immersive" experience.
I'd think this would be even more useful with the 1080p panel. (I quickly did a search and found one articulating arm that would hold the Panny's 179 lbs).

So hopefully this answers your question. I would think that a distance of around 9 feet, and maybe even 8 feet with a good source, could be the WOW distance with the 1080p model, with around 10-12 feet being a comfortable every-day distance.

I sure hope they are bringing out an industrial version of this beast, following their previous trend of offering more easily accessible fine picture controls on the industrial models.

I was going to order one from the internet and have not ruled out brick and mortar. The purchase is rather large in $$$ and I'd imagine the box/crate will be big as well. I still haven't made up my mind yet. Both have there pro's and con's.


Ok, serious question - how do I go about getting one?
I'm sure nobody is even taking orders right now but I do want to be placed on an early list.

So hopefully this answers your question.
Yes it does, thanks!

I sure hope they are bringing out an industrial version of this beast, following their previous trend of offering more easily accessible fine picture controls on the industrial models.

Me too. I would not buy a consumer model for the following reasons:

- No need for a tuner or speakers.
- Less control over the picture settings.
- Do not have separate settings per input.
- Less flexible inputs.
- No support no digital native rate!! Boy, I hope this changes.
Native rate is required if you ever want to upgrade to a external scaler.

A friend of mine just hooked up a Bravo D2 using native rate timings to his 657UY. The picture was stunning. Even though this player is not the best de-interlacer, there is no substitute for the clarity achieved using native rate to the panel. Up-scaling DVD players, although digital, still have multiple scaling steps and are not as sharp.

Bring on the Commercial version. I am not saying I am upgrading, I will wait for RH's review...

-- Rich

I was going to order one from the internet and have not ruled out brick and mortar. The purchase is rather large in $$$ and I'd imagine the box/crate will be big as well. I still haven't made up my mind yet. Both have there pro's and con's.


Ok, serious question - how do I go about getting one?
I'm sure nobody is even taking orders right now but I do want to be placed on an early list.

I would not worry about the internet ordering. My Friend and I both did that. Comes in a truck like any other plasma. Have a couple of guys handy to get the thing in the house. 180lbs is serious. Life is better if no stairs are involved :)

-- Rich

A friend of mine just hooked up a Bravo D2 using native rate timings to his 657UY. The picture was stunning. Even though this player is not the best de-interlacer, there is no substitute for the clarity achieved using native rate to the panel. Up-scaling DVD players, although digital, still have multiple scaling steps and are not as sharp.

Rich, what did your friend use to get the Bravo D2 to native rate of the Panny 65? HTPC, a scaler? Thanks.

Bring on the Commercial version. I am not saying I am upgrading, I will wait for RH's review...

-- Rich

Hopefully a local store will get this thing in soon, but I suspect we'll see forum members receiving theirs before I see it. (Then again, over the past few years I was able to see releases of the Pioneer/Panasonic newgen plasmas quite quickly after they were announced).

Given the claims for the new Pioneer plasmas (deeper blacks etc) I'm actually expecting Pioneer to probably surpass the Panasonics in over-all picture quality. Just a bit sharper, bit more colorful and at least as deep black levels, not to mention low image noise.

While I've always gone for image quality over size, even if the newgen Pioneers squeak past the Panny, I think I'm still headed for the Panny 65." This is because it's image will be stunning and the picture impact easily surpasses a smaller (50") Pioneer/Fujitsu plasma or whatever. It looks like Pioneer is bringing out a 61" 1080p model. But I'm quite sure they'll be charging more than Panasonic. And I still find the extra 4 inches of image size on the Panasonic adds to the impact. That's my thinking anyway (pre-seeing the Pioneers).

But this whole thing blows me away. For years I was looking at an eventual upgrade to a 50" screen (waiting for prices to decline). Then I became infatuated with the Panny 65 incher and there I was scraping money to save for the current 65" model. Now, along comes a friggin' 1080p version at a reduced price. Incredible! The upgrade from a meagre 42" ED panel to a 65" 1080p display just screams: "worth the money!"

Now....about getting that money.....

Hehe, nice.

At 180 lbs., it still weighs less than a 34" CRT. :)

Incredible! The upgrade from a meagre 42" ED panel to a 65" 1080p display just screams: "worth the money!"



Particularly since the 65" 1080p cost about the same (ballpark) what you paid for your 42" ED 4UY. :D

Incredible is right....

Hehe, nice.

At 180 lbs., it still weighs less than a 34" CRT. :)

True, but you do not have to lift it to chest height and get the little holes to line up with the pegs. And of course, it does not cost 10 g's :)

-- Rich

Rich, what did your friend use to get the Bravo D2 to native rate of the Panny 65? HTPC, a scaler? Thanks.

The Bravo D2 has a advanced code that lets you enter the specific display timings. We used the timings that I have for my Lumagen HDP adapting the terminology and computing the back porch and voila. Perfect 1:1 pixel cropping.

It has an absolutely amazing picture from a $250 DVD player. Of course, it cannot match the overscan, color, and picture adjustments of a true scaler, but at that price. Wow.

Around the time you get your screen, there should be a whole new set of scalers coming out with HD De-interlacing. It is nice to have Native rate to keep that option open.

-- Rich

So how/when are we going to find out if this thing accepts a 1080p source? It's hard to tell if this even came up using a google translation of the Japanese web site:

http://www.itmedia.co.jp/lifestyle/articles/0508/25/news038.html

It can correspond to the full HD indication of 1920×1080 pixel, can view high fine 1080p full high vision broadcast such as BS / terrestrial digital broadcast. The ground / the BS / 110 degree CS digital tuner and the analog tuner were loaded 2 bases adopted the " digital double tuner each " respectively

- ?


This looks nice:

"14 bit noise reduction" .....and....."
Furthermore as rich gradation is actualized with the digital signal processing of the largest 14bit and the introduction of control of new drive, the noise impression and the black collapsing with gradation insufficiency are held down, descriptive power of detail is raised.




BTW, in reading a translation of the Japanese pages, the Matsushita representative talked about the reasons for going 1080p in the 65" model. He says the current Japanese viewing environment is about 1.8 m from the TV (5.9 feet! Holy cow. But, when I visit my brother-in-law in Japan the living spaces are so tiny, especially in Tokyo, that seems about right). The representative says at that distance a 50" model achieves a viewing angle ration of 35 degrees. Ok for TV watching but not producing the immersion needed to match the cinema. He says a 45 degree angle of immersion is necessary to achieve that. The 65" models can achieve that at the 1.8m distance, but until recently the problem was at that distance the pixels became visible. So it "was judged" that the optimal solution would be a 65" plasma with the finer 1080p pixel resolution, allowing for such close, immersive viewing distances without being distracted by seeing the pixels.

....much like we've discussed here.

It can correspond to the full HD indication of 1920×1080 pixel, can view high fine 1080p full high vision broadcast such as BS / terrestrial digital broadcast. The ground / the BS / 110 degree CS digital tuner and the analog tuner were loaded 2 bases adopted the " digital double tuner each " respectively

Gotta love J'english :D

This is very exiting news. I love my 65 but sometimes I wish it had less noise level at dark levels and a smoother transition to black.

-- Rich

RichB,

I will probably be getting the new 65". Is yours wall mounted? If so, what mount did you use? I will either wall mount or place it on top of my Salamander unit. Thanks.

Paul

Rogo,

Any ideas on when and at what MSRP that the TH-65PXxxx will bottom out at?

Am I being realistic if I'm thinking $3500 MSRP by 2010?

I noticed from one of the Japanese links that they plan on selling 12,000 units of the 65" 1080p displays. Does anyone else think they will need to increase the output?

So how/when are we going to find out if this thing accepts a 1080p source?

the Matsushita representative talked about the reasons for going 1080p in the 65" model.
....much like we've discussed here.
The contrasting point here is that just two months ago Panasonic U.S.A. rationalized why consumers should stick with 50 inch and lower resolution displays/screens.

Now just two months later, (now that they are selling a higher performance product,) they rationalize why 1080p is all of a sudden the better solution.

Its no different than a salesman telling you whatever the store can sell today is best and everything else is crap!:)

There is a strong trend to bias consumers with facts up front then steer to a sale with marketing terms and false value judgments. These techniques come from all directions today, especially consumer magazines and manufacture press releases.

For consumers, the most important issue is to examine just how their new product has been produced for less cost. Have corners have been cut that they don't want you to know about? This hiding of cost cut products, substituted with techno-babble, is the exact technique used to market rear projectors this summer. Are flat panels next?

Panasonic did not turn around a 65" 1080p in two months. They have been long working on this problem internally. All the fabrication, engineering and electronics design didnt magically happen. It takes a roadmap that is years long to get where they are today.

So what about their rationalization (I havent seen it) - Can't a compant announce a new product?

RichB,

I will probably be getting the new 65". Is yours wall mounted? If so, what mount did you use? I will either wall mount or place it on top of my Salamander unit. Thanks.

Paul

I used the Panasonic fixed wall mount. I have a custom cabinet in front of it and center channel mounted about on a omni-mount. We used to have the center-channel on the cabinet, but with the 65, the screen got to be too high. Mine is at about 38 inches.

-- Rich

The contrasting point here is that just two months ago Panasonic U.S.A. rationalized why consumers should stick with 50 inch and lower resolution displays/screens.

Now just two months later, (now that they are selling a higher performance product,) they rationalize why 1080p is all of a sudden the better solution.


It's called disinformation. Very effective in war and competition :)

I suspect, the push for 1080P came from Sony, LCOS, and DLP all supporting it.
All I can say is Yeah!

-- Rich

Its no different than a salesman telling you whatever the store can sell today is best and everything else is crap!:)



Well I'm the last person to take a salesman's word on anything, let alone the marketing hype of any company. Every company hypes their "super-duper new technological advances." As always, the proof is in the viewing (and lots of times the hype doesn't pan out).

That said, in regards to the viewing distance/pixel structure the Matsushita guy wasn't simply blowing marketing smoke. There certainly is a corrolation between fine pixel structure and optimum viewing distances (with the viewing distance shrinking with finer pixel structure/higher res).

The caveat of course, and it's a big one, is that the pixel structure of the display is only part of the equation. Your source material has to be up to snuff for viewing at a close distance as well. Sitting closer to a poor quality source image will only exacerbate the appearance of artifacts.

I noticed from one of the Japanese links that they plan on selling 12,000 units of the 65" 1080p displays. Does anyone else think they will need to increase the output?


They'll sell the whole lot just as an AVS powerbuy... :D

When will the 60px500 be available in the U.S.?

Sometimes the lag between a Japanese release and a U.S. release can be pretty long, half a year or more.

Shh... Don't jinx anything.

But this whole thing blows me away. For years I was looking at an eventual upgrade to a 50" screen (waiting for prices to decline). Then I became infatuated with the Panny 65 incher and there I was scraping money to save for the current 65" model. Now, along comes a friggin' 1080p version at a reduced price. Incredible! The upgrade from a meagre 42" ED panel to a 65" 1080p display just screams: "worth the money!"

Now....about getting that money.....


I think I'm now in the same boat as you, Rich. I currently have a 42" ED plasma, as well (5UY). I always said that I would upgrade to a 50" unit and that would be cool.

But this new 65" 1080p unit seems too good to be true, especially considering the price. I hope that Panasonic releases an industrial version of this panel (HD658UK), in addition to the Viera one they've announced today.

According to the following link the 65" 1080p will only have a 72% premium over the 50" price in Japan (the Plasma pricing is higher in Japan than in the US).

If we use the 72% premium on the $4k MSRP for the 50PX50 then we have a MSRP of less than $7k in the US. :eek:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/pcworld/20050825/tc_pcworld/122310

"unveiled a 65-inch plasma TV on Thursday that will go on sale in Japan in October for under 1 million yen. In U.S. dollars, the TV will cost $9076."

"Alongside the new 65-inch TV, Panasonic also announced three other big-screen PDP sets on Thursday. They have screen sizes of 50-inches, 40-inches, and 37-inches and will cost $5275; $4000; and $3092 respectively."

The caveat of course, and it's a big one, is that the pixel structure of the display is only part of the equation. Your source material has to be up to snuff for viewing at a close distance as well. Sitting closer to a poor quality source image will only exacerbate the appearance of artifacts.
Very Important and well said!

If only 12,000 will be made in 2006 it is doubtful any of them will be sold in the US that year.

Okay, so following hoodlum's logic, I did a little analysis of my own.

The newly announced Panasonic Viera displays are priced as such:

50" (768p) - $5275
65" (1080p) - $9076

This represents a 72% premium for the 65" unit over the 50" unit, as stated above.

So, if the new 50PHD8UK is priced at $3995, that would put the price of the 65PHD8UK at just under $6900. Let's just say it will be $6995, just for $h!t$ and giggles.

Also, most of the reputable online dealers have the street price for the 50PHD8UK listed right now at $3000. Applying this same discount to the estimated MSRP of the 65PHD8UK puts it's street price at right around $5200.

All I can say is WOW!!!! :eek:

Of course, this is all speculation, but it's not that unbelievable, is it??

Things are happening so fast I can't keep up with the changes. RH on your question on contrast it's all hypothetical on my part but my thinking is the current 65 is effectively the 'ED' model vs the 65 1080p, and as contrast is better on the 42ED than the 42HD I am expecting the 65 1080p to have slightly lower observable contrast notwithstanding the specs. I'll tell you one set where you can really see a contrast difference and that's the Fuji 42's, their ED version is impressive , colors pop out very bright vs their HD version. On the Fuji it's a toss up on PQ between ED and HD at 42 sizing but not so much on the Pannies. I think it is a physics problem , downsize the pixel downsize the contrast unless you can throw more power behind it to increase brightness and then you're into possible accelerated phosphor wear. But at this point I'll bail out before the walls of the hole cave in on me.
Personally I cant stand the SDE on ED, I see it , drives me crazy, so 1080p is great news. And just when you thought things couldnt get better, with oil/gas and energy related commodities in demand our CDN $ is doing quite nicely so by the time that new 65 arrives who knows maybe we're at par so you've saved another 20% or so.
The other thing that interests me is that there seem to be only a handful of people on the site that have bought the current 65 which can be had in the states for about the same price we're talking about for the 1080p. Now there seems to be a flood of people lined up to buy same, curious whether this will actually happen and if it is 1080p driving the behaviour or just the impulse and adrenaline kicking in with this milestone plasma. Whatever it's got me in overdrive as well !

The other thing that interests me is that there seem to be only a handful of people on the site that have bought the current 65 which can be had in the states for about the same price we're talking about for the 1080p. Now there seems to be a flood of people lined up to buy same, curious whether this will actually happen and if it is 1080p driving the behaviour or just the impulse and adrenaline kicking in with this milestone plasma. Whatever it's got me in overdrive as well !

Actually, what interest us is that the MSRP for the new Consumer 65" 1080p will be slightly less than the online price for the Commercial 65" 720P. Imagine what the online price could be for the Commercial 1080p. :eek:

Hoodlum - I guess what really matters for the Canuck population on the site is will there be a commercial model , will it be available in Canada , at what price and will it come with a Canadian warranty ? The more things change the more they stay the same. When we start seeing the reviews come on line on this forum we'll know that things have changed especially if a bunch of Canucks buy them.

Hoodlum - I guess what really matters for the Canuck population on the site is will there be a commercial model , will it be available in Canada , at what price and will it come with a Canadian warranty ? The more things change the more they stay the same. When we start seeing the reviews come on line on this forum we'll know that things have changed especially if a bunch of Canucks buy them.

True dat.

I just can't come up with a reason why Panasonic might change it's long-running policy by not offering a commercial version of this plasma. As I wrote before, the professional clientel are at least as demanding as any consumer, and why would Panasonic keep manufacturing an inferior lower-res panel to sell to the professional market. Doesn't make sense. And the industrial market hasn't changed; strict "monitor" plasmas will still be needed all throughout the business market. So I figure an industrial version will be offered too, as before.

There are some Canadian plasma sellers who are offering plasmas at prices darn near american prices (after exchange).

i might be in the market for a 1080p 65" if the press release about panasonic halfing the MSRP is true...

I've been sitting here reading these posts and drooling over the idea of watching this 65" 1080p Plasma...and watching two HD football games at once on a split screen. Will this display do P&P or PIP?

"The 1080p DLPs will have worked out the major kinks of the first gen."

Like the fact that they are actually 960x1080 instead of 1920x1080? :rolleyes:

I think I'm now in the same boat as you, Rich. I currently have a 42" ED plasma, as well (5UY). I always said that I would upgrade to a 50" unit and that would be cool.

But this new 65" 1080p unit seems too good to be true, especially considering the price. I hope that Panasonic releases an industrial version of this panel (HD658UK), in addition to the Viera one they've announced today.

OMG we should form a club! I also have a 5UY and was thinking about getting a 50 next summer, but now with this news and the price... i gotta have the 65...! I wish i was paris hilton so I could go out and buy one now.


This will be easy to mount now, that I have been watching the 42 for about 1 year and all the mounting, studs are in place, as well as the wiring inside the walls. Although I wonder what the visual impact will be to have a 65" beast hanging on a wall in a room thats 20 x 20.

We have a "theater room" upstairs with a 124" screen, I hope I dont get lazy and watch all the movies downstairs on this screen...

I've been sitting here reading these posts and drooling over the idea of watching this 65" 1080p Plasma...and watching two HD football games at once on a split screen. Will this display do P&P or PIP?

Yes, a translation of some of the Japanese info on the Panasonic seems to indicate the ability to watch two images at once.

There's actually quite a lot of links to more detailed info on the new Panny contained
in those Japanese links. Of course you have to translate them and it's pretty brutal trying to parse any information that way. There's a suprising amount of multi-media information on the new 65" already up on the Japanese Panasonic site. Also, there is a link to what seems to be most of the specifications of the new display...but of course so much of it is japanese I can't get much out of it. (Still wondering if it accepts 1080p input).

I notice that most of the press releases mention a new "Deep Black Filter" to suppress ambient light reflections. I'm not sure I remember that from previous panels (anyone?).

There's also the boasting of a 14 bit processing designed to suppress image noise, rid false contouring and increase shadow gradations.

I'm curious exactly what this "Peaks" technology does.

Here's a bit of text I keep looking at, trying to figure out just what it's saying. What do you guys get out of this (Google translation):

Full HD panel (*2) In the television which is loaded, with just the panel it cannot show the efficiency sufficiently. Adjusting to the panel, the full HD panel (the *2) The image circuit which is controlled becomes more important.

In this product, ' the full HD PEAKS of new development (the ÉsÅ[ÉNÉX) ' to load, the full HD gas panel (the *2) Have tried to be able to show efficiency sufficiently. The high vision signal format of especially digital broadcast and the like (1, the 920Å~1, 080) with, by the fact that full HD direct connection processing is done, without converting the high vision signal format from input of broadcast to output to the panel, from more high picture quality playback is actualized.


I'm trying to figure out just what that might mean about the processing of HD-res signals. Anyone?

Who's got the fever?!!!

Yes, a translation of some of the Japanese info on the Panasonic seems to indicate the ability to watch two images at once.

The current 42 and 50 inch PX500 have this capability on the Japanese model (i.e. dual HD tuners), but it is limited to the Japanese models only.

Panasonic did not turn around a 65" 1080p in two months. They have been long working on this problem internally.

In fact, as I reported here a year ago, they very nearly made the very first 65 a 1080p unit. They were just too confident in the 768 process tech and now, obviously, are confident enough in the 1080 process tech.,

There's actually quite a lot of links to more detailed info on the new Panny contained
in those Japanese links. Of course you have to translate them and it's pretty brutal trying to parse any information that way. There's a suprising amount of multi-media information on the new 65" already up on the Japanese Panasonic site. Also, there is a link to what seems to be most of the specifications of the new display...but of course so much of it is japanese I can't get much out of it. (Still wondering if it accepts 1080p input).

I'm trying to figure out just what that might mean about the processing of HD-res signals. Anyone?

Who's got the fever?!!!

Well, you would think that they would at the very least allow the same inputs they do for the new 50" (TH-50PHD8UK). These, per the specs on a forum sponser's website, are:

1080/60i, 1080/50i, 1080/24p, 1080/24sf, 1080/25p, 1080/30p, 720/60p, 720/50p, 480/60p, 480/60i

So that would seem to indicate that everything is covered except 1080p60; which isn't in the ATSC spec's anyway.

As far as your coment wrt to the processing; I don't know; it kind of sounds like they might be saying that it stays at 1080 res (no downscaling to 720 and back up, etc); what method they will use to de-interlace though is less clear. Anyone read Japanese?

Rich, the Deep Black Filter goes back at least 2 generations, it is in the brochure for the 6UY.

I'm trying to figure out just what that might mean about the processing of HD-res signals. Anyone?

Who's got the fever?!!!
To me it sounds like nothing more than Panasonic saying that they don't need to scale the broadcast 1080i signal anymore.

In fact, as I reported here a year ago, they very nearly made the very first 65 a 1080p unit. They were just too confident in the 768 process tech and now, obviously, are confident enough in the 1080 process tech.


Mark,

I've noticed that in the SED thread you recommend against buying one of those displays during their first year of production. Since the technology and manufacturing processes are so new, that seems to make sense.

Is there any reason to apply that same logic to the first 1080p plasmas, such as this new 65" Panasonic? Do you think this display will be solid out of the gate, or will there be teething problems with the 1080p manufacturing processes?

Also, would you care to comment on my cost speculation above (post #136)? Am I way off target here, or what? Thanks.

Tim, I don't believe the admonition against early SED applies to 1080p plasmas. There is virtually no technological change taking place there, it's just a new process tech to add more pixels.

SED is new in so many ways and Toshiba has already proved its willingness to sell technology that isn't quite "baked" (with LCOS). So much of the risk -- and ridiculous price premiums -- will be gone by 2007 with SED. Given how low plasma pricing is going, I just don't see why anyone here would find it necessary to be a buyer of one of the first SED TVs. I'm not even sure they'll be sold here.

As for your pricing analysis, it seems reasonable, but I'm hesitant to speculate on how margin compression is going to affect all this. I find the pricing for the 50-inch commercial Panasonic somewhat stunning. Then I remember it includes no HDMI (still true right? you need to add it for ~$200?) and no stand or wall mount and I think, "Boy that looks a lot like the price for the consumer set after all".

All this should become clearer over time -- and not too much time.

To me it sounds like nothing more than Panasonic saying that they don't need to scale the broadcast 1080i signal anymore.


Ditto.

No scaling, just de-interlacing to 1080p.

Who's got the fever?!!!

I got the fever, but I need a cold shower.

I don't see how these will be available for purchase in the US in 2006 at only 12,000/year initial capacity.

If there will be a few available in 2006, they will sell for above MSRP (my guess).

PEAKS
Picture Enhancement Accelerator with Kinetic System. I believe it has been around for several generations.

"The VIERA TH-50PX500 features Panasonics latest PEAKS (Picture Enhancement Accelerator with Kinetic System) technology incorporating a new plasma panel, deep black filter and real black drive system. The deep black filter attached to the front protection glass reduces light transmittance, effectively suppressing external glare and reflection. The real black drive system has realized a high contrast ratio of 3,000:1 in the dark environment, creating deeper and richer blacks."

I was of the understanding that 1080i broadcast was more like 1440x1080i than 1920x1080i. If this is true some scaling will be necessary.

I also understand "just de-interlacing" is not nessessarily as simple as it sounds.

Aside from 1080P, the most interesting thing about the panels is the potential improvement from 14 bit processing. If this does in fact reduce noise, I will upgrade.

Commercial versions usually precede the consumer models in the US. I have not seen announcements for these panels. Does Panasonic usually announce commercial panels?

-- Rich

Aside from 1080P, the most interesting thing about the panels is the potential improvement from 14 bit processing. If this does in fact reduce noise, I will upgrade.
-- Rich

Whenever I get a look at the 1080p panel I will be sure to check that out and report (if we don't get user reports before that...and the "fever" here suggests we will see reports from people who've bought one as soon as it's available).

Rich, what about the new Pioneer 61" 1080p model? Intrigued? Might you downsize a bit? Or is the fact it will likely be more expensive than the Panny, and won't be coming out as soon, put you off?

Panasonic Introduces World's First 65-inch 1080p Plasma TV

PRESS RELEASE - Osaka, Japan - Panasonic, the leading brand for which Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. is known, today announced it will launch the world's first 65-inch 1080p (progressive) high-definition (HD) plasma TV TH-65PX500 on November 1 and three new entry-level PX50 series HD plasma TVs with 50-, 42- and 37-inch displays on September 10 in Japan.............

Panasonic Press Release! (http://www.avinfo.co.uk/index.php?main=story&itemid=15030180)

http://pictures.directnews.org.uk/Live/Photo4077.jpg

http://image.itmedia.co.jp/l/im/lifestyle/articles/0508/25/l_mn_pana06.jpg

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050825/pana1_03.jpg

Dave

Oh momma, I'm going to sleep good tonight. I may even have a wet dream. Now let's hear from Rogo as to when this model will hit the $10k level where I might hang one on my wall.

That's a beautiful TV, but I think I'll probably just go ahead and get one of the new Pioneers coming out in a month or so. If I keep waiting, I won't be able to tell the difference between a 1080p and 480p.

But just out of curiosity ...... when do you guys think we might see a 50" 1080p plasma for under 5 grand? Within the next 2 years?

[QUOTE=cheridave]Panasonic Introduces World's First 65-inch 1080p Plasma TV

PRESS RELEASE - Osaka, Japan - Panasonic, the leading brand for which Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. is known, today announced it will launch the world's first 65-inch 1080p (progressive) high-definition (HD) plasma TV TH-65PX500 on November 1 and three new entry-level PX50 series HD plasma TVs with 50-, 42- and 37-inch displays on September 10 in Japan.............

Panasonic Press Release! (http://www.avinfo.co.uk/index.php?main=story&itemid=15030180)

The new entry-level PX50 series in Japan sound like the models we have here already since April. That is very strange for a plasma model to begin in the U.S. and then introduce in Japan 6 months later. Or is this the 9th generation consumer PDP?

Oh momma, I'm going to sleep good tonight. I may even have a wet dream. Now let's hear from Rogo as to when this model will hit the $10k level where I might hang one on my wall.

Try this link. Looks like it's gonna be introduced at well less than that. (If it's the same model.)

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=573525

Are these a new generation Panasonic? I thought the current px500 was already released in Japan last year.

Whenever I get a look at the 1080p panel I will be sure to check that out and report (if we don't get user reports before that...and the "fever" here suggests we will see reports from people who've bought one as soon as it's available).

Rich, what about the new Pioneer 61" 1080p model? Intrigued? Might you downsize a bit? Or is the fact it will likely be more expensive than the Panny, and won't be coming out as soon, put you off?

Not really. I don't see how I can go smaller. Now if there were a 65 or 70" Pioneer that would be another story. Competition is great. I think that Panasonic is making a serious push here. If they improve the processing a bit, the panel will be unstoppable.

-- Rich

Panasonic, the leading brand for which Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. is known, today announced it will launch the world's first 65-inch 1080p (progressive) high-definition (HD) plasma TV TH-65PX500 on November 1 and three new entry-level PX50 series HD plasma TVs with 50-, 42- and 37-inch displays on September 10 in JapanIt's comforting to know the PX50 is an entry level PDP. :)

The bar has been raised... 1080P FPs with dual NTSC/ATSC tuners...

Now where is that 2-way CableCARD I'm looking for? :D

Try this link. Looks like it's gonna be introduced at well less than that. (If it's the same model.)
www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=573525

yobob
You just ruined my day now. As a retiree I can free up about $10k a year as do what you please money, and still evade IRS radar. Unfortunately the "do as you please money" for this year and the same level for the next is already committed to a kitchen remodel. I thought for sure the $10k barrier would not be breached no sooner than 2007 and I would be all set.

Then I read your link:
"Matsushita Electric Industrial Co Ltd, the world's largest consumer electronics maker, said it is launching four new plasma televisions including a 65-inch high-definition model which will hit stores November 1.

The 65-inch TV will be priced at 990,000 yen (about $9,007) per unit, about half the retail price of the existing 65-inch plasma TVs sold by Matsushita, the maker of Panasonic and National brands of consumer electronics."

Now I'm going to toss and turn, forget about a good nights' sleep!
Anybody want to buy a new kitchen - all new cabinets, new granite countertops, all new stainless appliances - please, please, please. :)

This post is only for getting my count to 5 so I can post a URL. :(

This is another post for getting my count to 5 so I can post a URL. :(

This is one more post for getting my count to 5 so I can post a URL. :(

This is the last posting for getting my count to 5 so I can post a URL. :(

This pdf brochure (http://www.visualapex.com/ProductSupport/TH-42PWD8UK.pdf) states that the TH-65PHD8UK will only have a resolution of 1366x768 and NOT 1920x1080. :eek:

Semigolpher, I feel your pain. Our cash is tied up in bathroom renovations at the moment. Who knew this would come that fast?

And darn it, when it comes to a choice between a nice bathroom and a great TV, I'm a man: I'd rather watch movies in style than...you-know-what...in style.

:0

Alas...the wives...they are different.....

Bummer.

You guys crack me up! Look at the upsid ethough! By the time youare ready to get one, they will be cheaper still and probably better anyway! Right? LOL

Funny, we say that but that fact is it just never is a good time to buy. Somethign better is always around the corner... <sigh>

This is the year I shall get my plasma....

Wiley

Edited for clarity:


When did the announced TH-65PX500 change is name to TH-65PHD8UK? Are we sure we are talking about the same panel? There already is a 1366 x 768 model available and purhaps you are refering to that (or its next incarnation).

When did the announced TH-65PX500 change is name to TH-65PHD8UK? Are we sure we are talking about the same panel?

Different panel. Th 8UK is commercial.
I think we will have to wait and see if and when the commercial 1080P becomes available.

-- Rich

There may yet be a brightside to this story - I just have to believe they will cut the price significantly on the 65 "ED" (couldnt resist) commercial panel. Lets face it this is already one impressive panel, it won RH's shootout with the Qualia. If the 65 1080p is estimated at US$9K and the 50 Commercial is at $3K level, my math says $6K has to be possible for the 65 'ED'. So then lets see buy the 65'ED' when the price drops and move it to the bedroom when the 65 1080p arrives or drops to a reasonable $level. The entire house will be wall to wall plasma. Again cant wait to see the pricing on the commercial and 1080p 65's.

Rich: That's good news.

I called TVA today to start the order process. Spoke with Cammy. She's going to do some model/pricing/features research and get back to me. Hopefully I'll have a preorder soon. :)

well i have a year before making a decision, hopefully there will be a 1080p 65" panasonic available at the prices we all thought it would be as per the "calculations"... maybe it will be introduced in the 9th generation.


EDIT: so is it safe to assume that panasonic will introduce the 1080p panel in the 9th gen? if so, can we also assume that it will be priced lower than the 8th gen being introduced...?

I am so confused, mark (rogo) stated a few pages back that panasonic was almoist fully confident and almost introduced the 1080p in their first gen 65". I dont get why they would wait another gen before introducing it for us commerical crowd.

By the time you are ready to get one, they will be cheaper still and probably better anyway!.......This is the year I shall get my plasma....
Wiley

Congratulations on decision. You won't be sorry, if you've done your research.

But, don't feel too bad for us, wsiler. Rich has been on this plasma train for several years, and I jumped on board a couple months ago, with a small insurance settlement. It's been an eye popping experience.

I've only experienced one negative aspect to ownership - you watch more TV. So if learn to moderate your TV time you're going to be one happy camper.

For the first year ever in my life I've watched reruns - but quite frankly they were like brand new episodes. It is somewhat distracting to be able to read signs in the background, notes left on the refrigerator, brands of cereal, jam, milk and other things left of the table of the TV programs your watching. And the color it just jumps out from the screen. Probably because the screen is so much larger.
Something tells me your going to see a lot more product placement deals in the industry now that the viewer can clearly see the product.

But I'm still on target to purchase 3 new TV's over the next three years - next year will probably be a small LCD for my kitchen counter - but then I want a 60+" for my family room, and then something to replace the projector in the home theater room. Keep in mind my last TV purchase before this was 25 years ago - so I had a bad case of the TV "jones", that won't be satisfied for another few years.

Rich: That's good news.

I called TVA today to start the order process. Spoke with Cammy. She's going to do some model/pricing/features research and get back to me. Hopefully I'll have a preorder soon. :)

Ass

Do you have any intel that this set will be available here in US before year end? Everything I read suggests that November is the release in Japan only.

Thanks

Sergio

You guys crack me up! Look at the upsid ethough! By the time youare ready to get one, they will be cheaper still and probably better anyway! Right? LOLRight... see how you're saving money all the time... :) the keyword here is: patience! ;)

we'll just have to suffer with our 50" entry-level PDPs for the time being... isn't life tough? :rolleyes:

bah.....I came here too late, just received this link from a friend

http://www.i4u.com/article4077.html

but boy oh boy, plasmas just got more fun

Ass

Do you have any intel that this set will be available here in US before year end? Everything I read suggests that November is the release in Japan only.

Thanks

Sergio

Maybe with enough demand Panasonic will make sure the new 65 incher gets to these shores quickly--maybe by this year's end.

With that said, I'm going to send an e-mail to TVA and try to get on some sort of preorder list.

can we pls merge the hoodlum's and dave's threads on the 1080p 65" Panny?

Title Edited.

Threads Merged!

Dave

"I am so confused, mark (rogo) stated a few pages back that panasonic was almoist fully confident and almost introduced the 1080p in their first gen 65". I dont get why they would wait another gen before introducing it for us commerical crowd."

I'd speculate that since the existing 65-inch panel has been shipping for a while, they might just be updating it the wait they updated the other panels to the "8" series.

The newer 1080p will probably slowly ramp up and, quite frankly, on the commercial side the demand for the extra pixels is even lower.

But that's speculation.

Ass

Do you have any intel that this set will be available here in US before year end? Everything I read suggests that November is the release in Japan only.

Thanks

Sergio

No I do not have any additional intel about release dates. You really never know when a product will make the jump from Japan to USA. Instead of waiting, I called TVA and told Cammy that I wanted to preorder or to get on a pre-order-list.

Bascially, she told me that there really is not much that can be done until she has the US model number. She said she'll call me when she gets any details.

I noticed from one of the Japanese links that they plan on selling 12,000 units of the 65" 1080p displays. Does anyone else think they will need to increase the output?CED yesterday indicated annual production of 18,000 panels. Is the excess intended for a commercial model? Or for someone else? Or are the still going to be making 1366x768 65" panels in addition to the new 1920x1080 panels, and the summed output will be 18,000?

Panasonic unveiled a 1080p-capable version of its 65W plasma TV in Japan that could retail there for the
equivalent of $9,076, Osaka-based company officials said. The new model also is said to lower power consump-
tion by 26%. Panasonic introduced a 65W with 1,366x768 resolution at $19,999 last fall as part of its Onyx AVS
series. The lower-priced models follow Panasonic’s decision this year to triple annual output of 65W panels to
18,000 units in the fiscal year that started April 1. Panasonic has moved aggressively to cut retail prices for plasma
TVs, with a 42W ED model expected to hit $1,999 effective Sun.

I'd speculate that since the existing 65-inch panel has been shipping for a while, they might just be updating it the wait they updated the other panels to the "8" series.

The newer 1080p will probably slowly ramp up and, quite frankly, on the commercial side the demand for the extra pixels is even lower.

But that's speculation.


i find that surprising personally, becuase I would think there would be more demand for higher resolution in the pro community than consumer. Pros always want the best first, esp in medical/research situations where resolution matters. I cant really think of an industry where one would say resolution doesnt matter. in fact i'd say the best buy consumer would be the one who would care less about resolution because usually they dont know any better.

anyway, are you saying that mid-way through the 8gen there will suddenly be 1080p 65" panels? I havent followed the 8uk panel updates, or any panel updates, since we got ours. now that we want another, i'm back on this forum...

Medical, research, simulation really don't have much use for 65-inch displays with just 2 million pixels. I'm sure they'll sell some in commercial settings, but simulation uses projectors more often than not and medical image uses things that are often smaller but very high resolution.

65-inch displays are large and only work in certain kind of environments. And, yes, there will be a 1080p model -- at least in the consumer line.

They may be selling off the remaining 768P 65's in the commercial line then transfer to the 1080P.

The Onyx 65 was too expensive. At 20K there were few retail outfits selling them. Tweeter did not have on display. You could special order them.

I can't see them continuing to make a 768P 65 for the commercial line over time.

-- Rich

Since I live in Germany, I will visit the IFA fair in Berlin (Sep. 2-7) and have a VERY GOOD AND CLOSE look at the new 1080p 65“ Panny and the other new big boys. (IFA is the European parallel to CES)

If anyone has questions they would like me to ask, please let me know. The following questions are already on the list:

1: When will the (not a) commercial model of the 1080p 65“ arrive?
2: When will the 1080p 65“ Panny be available in Germany and at what MSRP?
3: When will the 1080p 65“ Panny be available in the US and at what MSRP?

I hope that the big boys will be pushed for the soccer World Cup in Germany in June and July 2006 and hopefully competition will get the bargains rolling. Then I will get out the plastic and line up for the 1080p 65“ Panny :) (And since I’m a bachelor I need no one else’s approval).

By then I will also have the new DVDO® iScan™ VP30 and then it can really show what magics it can work.

I haven't read the entire thread but does anybody know if the half-life will increase over 60,000 hours?

Since I live in Germany, I will visit the IFA fair in Berlin (Sep. 2-7) and have a VERY GOOD AND CLOSE look at the new 1080p 65“ Panny and the other new big boys. (IFA is the European parallel to CES)

If anyone has questions they would like me to ask, please let me know. The following questions are already on the list:

1: When will the (not a) commercial model of the 1080p 65“ arrive?
2: When will the 1080p 65“ Panny be available in Germany and at what MSRP?
3: When will the 1080p 65“ Panny be available in the US and at what MSRP?

I hope that the big boys will be pushed for the soccer World Cup in Germany in June and July 2006 and hopefully competition will get the bargains rolling. Then I will get out the plastic and line up for the 1080p 65“ Panny :) (And since I’m a bachelor I need no one else’s approval).

By then I will also have the new DVDO® iScan™ VP30 and then it can really show what magics it can work.

Question to ask:

"Will the HDMI input be able to accept a 1080p signal? (For the upcoming Blu-Ray players, for example?")

Thanks!

Question to ask:

"Will the HDMI input be able to accept a 1080p signal? (For the upcoming Blu-Ray players, for example?")

Thanks!
Seconded.

And I'm not talking about 1080p24 only. I also want 1080p50 and 1080p60, because only that way you can later add a good external scaler.

Captain Pike,

Please ask if the DVI and/OR HDMI will accept native rate?
Also, What about Native rate at 72hZ?

-- Rich

Captain Pike:

Can you ask whether there is 14-bit color processing in this model?

Captain Pike:

Can you ask whether there is 14-bit color processing in this model?

Yes and reduced noise too :)

-- Rich

Since I live in Germany, I will visit the IFA fair in Berlin (Sep. 2-7) and have a VERY GOOD AND CLOSE look at the new 1080p 65“ Panny and the other new big boys. (IFA is the European parallel to CES)...


Do not forget to compare the Panny with the Sharp 65" LCD: same size, same resolution ;).
They will not be placed side-by-side showing the same content but still PQ impressions might be useful.

Technical question: Does the Panny have DVI input supporting 1920x1080 to use it directly with computer?

Do not forget to compare the Panny with the Sharp 65" LCD: same size, same resolution ;).


Yep.

Better hope that Sharp will have a $5,000 better picture, cuz that's the reported MSRP difference.... ;)

It would be nice if Greg Rogers (WidescreenReview, Accupel) could do an in-depth review of both panels and provide side-by-side comparisons.

yobob
You just ruined my day now. As a retiree I can free up about $10k a year as do what you please money, and still evade IRS radar. Unfortunately the "do as you please money" for this year and the same level for the next is already committed to a kitchen remodel. I thought for sure the $10k barrier would not be breached no sooner than 2007 and I would be all set.


Sorry 'bout that. :)

AFAIC the price might as well be ten times that. I'm still trying to figure out how I'm gonna find the cash for the 50HD8UK, even at the newly-announced sponsor pricing.

Yep.
Better hope that Sharp will have a $5,000 better picture, cuz that's the reported MSRP difference.... ;)

Heh, that's just bloody competition in action:
Sharp was pricing in his exclusive market niche
and now will have to match Panny on the streets.
Or even going below as Panny has another prime
time advantage: significantly lower power
consumption. But in the end it seems that
subjective PQ will be decisive factor here panie Wojtku :D

Here a summary of the questions so far. If I have gotten something wrong, please correct the respective question(s).

For the consumer model, I suspect that there will be differences between the European and US models (especially when it comes to input frequencies accepted) that the German personnel at the Panasonic booth are not familiar with. Hopefully there are a couple of Japanese experts from Panasonic “lurking” around.

I will visit the IFA on Monday Sep. 5 and on Tuesday Sep. 6. If I can find the time, I may also go on Friday Sep. 2. Unfortunately it looks like a business trip is coming up on Sep. 7 lasting the rest of the week, so please do not expect any answers before the weekend Sep. 10/11.


1: When will the commercial model of the 1080p 65“ (TH-65PX500) be available and what will it be called?

2: Why does the commercial model TH-65PHD8UK only have a resolution of 1366x768 and not 1920x1080 like the consumer model TH-65PX500?

3: When will the TH-65PX500 be available in Germany and at what MSRP?

4: When will the TH-65PHD8UK be available in Germany and at what MSRP?

5: When will the TH-65PX500 be available in the US and at what MSRP?

6: When will the TH-65PHD8UK be available in the US and at what MSRP?

7: Which frequencies does the HDMI/DVI input on the TH-65PX500 accept with at 1080p signal (24/25/30/48/50/60/72/other)?

8: Does the HDMI/DVI input on the TH-65PX500 accept direct pixel mapping, i.e. a native 1920x1080i/p input and at which frequencies (24/25/30/48/50/60/72/other)?

9: Does the HDMI/DVI input on the TH-65PHD8UK accept direct pixel mapping, i.e. a native 1366x768i/p input and at which frequencies (24/25/30/48/50/60/72/other)?

10: Does the DVI input on the TH-65PX500 support 1920x1080 directly from a computer?

11: Does the TH-65PX500/TH-65PHD8UK have 14-bit color processing?

12: Does the TH-65PX500/TH-65PHD8UK have reduced noise compared to their 7 gen. counterparts?

13: Is it on the TH-65PX500 possible to adjust H-Pos/Size and V-Pos/Size (for over/under-scan) and with which input(s)?

14: Is it on the TH-65PX500 possible to adjust H-Freq and V-Freq and with which input(s)?

Do not forget to compare the Panny with the Sharp 65" LCD: same size, same resolution ;).
They will not be placed side-by-side showing the same content but still PQ impressions might be useful.

Technical question: Does the Panny have DVI input supporting 1920x1080 to use it directly with computer?I will do my best, but this is asking the almost impossible;) Depends on the material fed (SD/HD), external/internal scaling, lightning conditions, my personal bias pro/con LCD/Plasma, etc.

"9: Does the HDMI/DVI input on the TH-65PHD8UK accept direct pixel mapping, i.e. a native 1366x768i/p input and at which frequencies (24/25/30/48/50/60/72/other)?"

See the native rate thread in the Video Processors forum.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6081664&&#post6081664

The 50" and 65" commercial panels are 1366x768 and can be pixel mapped 1:1 via DVI and HDMI. While HDMI doesn't list 1:1, Steve (spa) is getting 1:1 through HDMI on his 50" 7UY via an iScan HD+ processor. Based on this information, Panasonic may not be able to answer this question or may say "no" (and subsequently be wrong as has been shown with HDMI). I have given this information to a Panasonic tech, so hopefully Panasonic can update the information on the HDMI board.

Joe,

I am too well aware of the risk of not getting correct answers from the Panasonic representative(s) I ask. But when asking a person questions face to face (as opposed to by mail or phone), it is easier to get a good feeling for how good that person’s knowledge really is.

An OT question: Does anyone here own the Denon DVD-5910/A1XV?

I have one question only regarding the CAPTIONS setting in the OTHER-SETUP menu. I have asked it in the "Denon 5910 Owners Thread", but so far not gotten an answer.

Captain Pike,

Another question:

Will previous versions of the terminal boards and table stand work with the new 65 inch commercial set? (I'm assuming they should, but...)

Another request:

Please postpone your business trip so you can post your answers on this forum as soon as possible. (Just kidding, of course ;). )

Franchot,
Is this what you want to know?

15: Will terminal boards, table stands and other mounting gear for the current 65 inch commercial display work with the TH-65PX500/TH-65PHD8UK?

I assume that the mounting stuff for the current 50" and smaller displays do not go with the current 65 inch, or am I wrong?

EDIT
Reading this pdf brochure (http://www.visualapex.com/ProductSupport/TH-42PWD8UK.pdf) (last 2 pages) might answer your question.

Franchot,
Is this what you want to know?

15: Will terminal boards, table stands and other mounting gear for the current 65 inch commercial display work with the TH-65PX500/TH-65PHD8UK?

I assume that the mounting stuff for the current 50" and smaller displays do not go with the current 65 inch, or am I wrong?

EDIT
Reading this pdf brochure (http://www.visualapex.com/ProductSupport/TH-42PWD8UK.pdf) (last 2 pages) might answer your question.

Thanks, Captain Pike. Hadn't looked that far into the brochure. Scratch my question, but not my request.

If it only accepted native resolution at 50 and 60Hz on all inputs that would do me, why do they always miss out 50Hz, alot of people live in Pal world!

Franchot,
I'm working on your request. :)

Here are the Operating Instructions (http://www.electronics-depot.com/Brochures/Panasonic_8UK_series.pdf) (pdf) for the xyPHD8UK models EXCEPT the 65PHD8UK. Most frequencies, including 50Hz are listed (towards the end of the manual). For RGB/PC and DVI input the Horizontal freq can be set within the range 15-110 kHz and the Vertical within 48-120 Hz.

Would assume that the 65PHD8UK has at least the same specs as his smaller brothers.

When it comes to the consumer version TH-65PX500 (which I might go for due to Teletext) the European model must have 50Hz, otherwise it is unusable here.

ANYONE who knows an external Closed Captions Decoder (with component input and output that preferably can decode progressive frames)?
Need one to put between the DVD player and the DVDO scaler. I have just purchased two complete TV series (12 seasons on 110 R1 DVDs) with closed captions only (no subtitles). Due to lot of action-noise, it is at times impossible to hear/understand the dialog.

ANYONE who knows about an external teletext decoder?

After reading the 8UK PDF, it looks like the 8'th gen panels have some kind of 14 bit processing but the absolute numbers of gradations has not changed since the 7 series (a maximum of 2048 shades) :confused:

-- Rich

I have a couple of questions for you, Captain.

1. When will we see 50" PDPs with 1920x1080p resolution? Will it be the consumer version first, like the 65"?

2. Will Panasonic be releasing a size in between the 50" and 65" units, such as a 57" unit which seems to work well on the 100" glass they are using? If so, when? Will it be 1920x1080p?

I think that's it. Thanks!

panie Wojtku :D

:D

Well it looks like my plasma has finally arrived!
If this thing comes out this year (industrial version hopefully but I don't hold out hope for that) then I will be getting this to mount in our new loft.

It's been a long time coming for me, as some of you "older" folk know, and with our impending move next month I was all set to pull the trigger on the 50" 8UK with KEF KHT 6000 speakers. I may still have to go that route because we are selling our CRT before the move and my wife wants the plasma hanging on the wall before we move in. Maybe I can do a swap and sell the 50 incher when the 65 incher comes out.

My other problem is that the KEFs may not match (in size) to the bigger screen which is actually a big deal for me because the aesthetics have to be up there along with the PQ.

I'm glad Rich H that you are heading towards this panel too. You deserve the best!

After reading the 8UK PDF, it looks like the 8'th gen panels have some kind of 14 bit processing but the absolute numbers of gradations has not changed since the 7 series (a maximum of 2048 shades) :confused:

-- Rich
From Panasonic commercial website:

HDMI or DVI connection needed (http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=94540&catGroupId=14624&surfModel=TH-50PHD8UK&displayTab=O)

"Up to 2,048 shades of gradation (4,096 shades via HDMI or DVI connection) - New Advanced Real Gamma System and up to 14-bit signal processing provide superior performance at brightness levels where the human eye sees best"

I have a couple of questions for you, Captain.

1. When will we see 50" PDPs with 1920x1080p resolution? Will it be the consumer version first, like the 65"?

2. Will Panasonic be releasing a size in between the 50" and 65" units, such as a 57" unit which seems to work well on the 100" glass they are using? If so, when? Will it be 1920x1080p?

I think that's it. Thanks!TimV,
our questions have been noted and will be asked.

My personal experience is though that CE companies (like most other companies) NEVER comment on non-released products, even if planned or in the pipeline. Maybe I can interpret something from facial expressions.

My personal experience is though that CE companies (like most other companies) NEVER comment on non-released products, even if planned or in the pipeline. Maybe I can interpret something from facial expressions.
If they don't answer the questions, then please try at least to make clear that we do urgently want native resolution HDMI inputs with 24Hz, 50Hz and 60Hz. Thank you!

"My personal experience is though that CE companies (like most other companies) NEVER comment on non-released products, even if planned or in the pipeline. Maybe I can interpret something from facial expressions."

You must be asking the wrong people, then. ;)

I've gotten more than a little info over the past 3 years that isn't "official" or released but has proved to be remarkably true.

From Panasonic commercial website:

HDMI or DVI connection needed (http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=94540&catGroupId=14624&surfModel=TH-50PHD8UK&displayTab=O)

"Up to 2,048 shades of gradation (4,096 shades via HDMI or DVI connection) - New Advanced Real Gamma System and up to 14-bit signal processing provide superior performance at brightness levels where the human eye sees best"

This information comes from the 50 not the 65 inch. Even so, what the hell does this mean? Does it provide superior performance in dark or bright areas. I think bright from my experience. Dark areas between 5 and 10% have a lot of noise. Noise that is easily viewable from 12 feet. It does not occur with all material, but if it has just the right amount of brightness, there is plenty of noise. Right where my eyes can see it :)

-- Rich

According to this difficult to read translation the 14-bit processing does reduce the noise and improve the gray scale. But we should also be able to see this with all the 8UKs as well. Has anyone compared the noise level from the 7UY with 8UK?

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.phileweb.com/news/d-av/200508/25/13532.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dth-65px500%2Bpeaks%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

"by the fact that digital signal processing and new drive of the maximum of 14 bits which correspond to animated picture are controlled " the noise impression and the black collapsing with gradation insufficiency are held down, you say it is possible to detail to describe smoothly""


Maybe someone can give us a better translation.

Is anyone able to translate this image?

http://www.phileweb.com/news/photo/200508/VIERA_hikaku_big.jpg

Here is another translation that talks about the sub pixel controller and the 14-bit processing.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.itmedia.co.jp/lifestyle/articles/0508/25/news038.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dth-65px500%2Bpeaks%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN



"In addition, color management is done in 3 dimensional space, the " vivid color creation ", the エンハンサ of 1 dot unit (contour revision) technology " sub pixel controller ", holding down animated picture false contour noise, clearing it actualizes the picture " motion pattern noise reduction ", faithfully it reproduces the detail of image " the インテリジェントエンハンサー " and transaction of operation the to maximum of 14 bits by the fact that it converts it made texture small-scale gradation expression possible, " 14 bit noise reduction " and so on, the same company individual various high picture quality conversion technologies are loaded."

Is anyone able to translate this image?

http://www.phileweb.com/news/photo/200508/VIERA_hikaku_big.jpg

Hoodlum,

For some reason I find his hilarious!
I stand by my statement: "What the hell does that mean?" :D

-- Rich

My Japanese co-worker, Tomoko, graciously translated the slide for me. It describes how PX plasmas (the two screens on the left, titled in red) and LCD displays (the two screens on the right, titled in black) look in the store environment (2,000 lux, upper part of the slide) and home environment (75-150 lux, lower part of the slide).

The yellow star on the left says that the difference in illumination in the store and at home can be more than 10-fold. The little balloon in the middle touts PDP black levels versus LCD in the home environment.

All in all - no revelations. :D

Wojtek,

Could you friend translate the following from this same article.

カラーマネジメントの技術には、3次元色空間を利用した「ビビッドカラークリエーション」を採用。色あいと明るさを独立に検出す ることで、よりきめ細かな制御を行う。また、鮮鋭感を向上させる輪郭補正技術「サブピクセルコントローラー」や、動画擬似輪郭ノ イズを低減する「モーションパターンノイズリダクション」、暗いシーンでも映像の階調表現力を損なうことなくノイズを抑える「1 4ビットノイズリダクション」などを搭載した。

http://www.phileweb.com/news/d-av/200508/25/13532.html

Wojtek,

Could you friend translate the following from this same article.

カラーマネジメントの技術には、3次元色空間を利用した「ビビッドカラークリエーション」を採用。色あいと明るさを独立に検出す ることで、よりきめ細かな制御を行う。また、鮮鋭感を向上させる輪郭補正技術「サブピクセルコントローラー」や、動画擬似輪郭ノ イズを低減する「モーションパターンノイズリダクション」、暗いシーンでも映像の階調表現力を損なうことなくノイズを抑える「1 4ビットノイズリダクション」などを搭載した。

http://www.phileweb.com/news/d-av/200508/25/13532.html

I'm sure she will.

But it will have to be on Thursday - she's on vacation tomorrow!

I will do my best, but this is asking the almost impossible;) Depends on the material fed (SD/HD), external/internal scaling, lightning conditions, my personal bias pro/con LCD/Plasma, etc.

We are talking different problem here. It sounds obviously trivial that the panel should support native
resolution via DVI but there was a time when Panasonic panels were supporting only 4:3 picture size via DVI. That is a panel with the native 1366x768 resolution supported only 1024x768 via DVI :mad:. Native resolution was supported by analog inputs only. I want to be 100% sure they really support native 1920x1080 via DVI. In fact same should be confirmed for the Sharp 65" LCD.

We are talking different problem here. It sounds obviously trivial that the panel should support native
resolution via DVI but there was a time when Panasonic panels were supporting only 4:3 picture size via DVI. That is a panel with the native 1366x768 resolution supported only 1024x768 via DVI :mad:. Native resolution was supported by analog inputs only. I want to be 100% sure they really support native 1920x1080 via DVI. In fact same should be confirmed for the Sharp 65" LCD.

I believe question 8 from Captain Pike asks this:
8: Does the HDMI/DVI input on the TH-65PX500 accept direct pixel mapping, i.e. a native 1920x1080i/p input and at which frequencies (24/25/30/48/50/60/72/other)?

Although there is no reason to state is as "native 1920x1080i/p" just "native 1920x1080P since there is not such thing as a native interlaced signal on this panel. The panel is progressive only.

-- Rich

I think there is a pregnant pause in the 65 pricing. Street prices are 3 times greater for the 65 than the 50. That does not make sense long term :rolleyes:

-- Rich

I just saw one on-line Japanese retailer selling it at more than 20% off the MSRP. Looks like there is still lots of margin to play with.

I just saw one on-line Japanese retailer selling it at more than 20% off the MSRP. Looks like there is still lots of margin to play with.


Will they ship to the US?

Looks like captainPike will need an interview chair and press pass for all his questions.
Hopefully they will give him the time of day in front of what likely will be a large unforgiving crowd.

;)

Will they ship to the US?

I did see some mention of shipping overseas but this may only be within Asia. Not to mention all documentation/menus will be in Japanese and no warranty.

An OT question: Does anyone here own the Denon DVD-5910/A1XV?

I have one question only regarding the CAPTIONS setting in the OTHER-SETUP menu. I have asked it in the "Denon 5910 Owners Thread", but so far not gotten an answer.
I do, what was the question?

dc

Although there is no reason to state is as "native 1920x1080i/p" just "native 1920x1080P since there is not such thing as a native interlaced signal on this panel. The panel is progressive only.

-- RichRichB,
Thanks for the correction. My error.

Looks like captainPike will need an interview chair and press pass for all his questions.
Hopefully they will give him the time of day in front of what likely will be a large unforgiving crowd.

;)I'll probably even be on the 8 O'clock news coast-to-coast in the US. :D :D :D

Perhaps I should not postpone my business trip, so that you ALL have to wait until the weekend Sep 10/11 for my report. ;)

I do, what was the question?

dcDreamCatcher,
Thanks for responding. :)

What I would like to know is:

What happens when setting CAPTIONS to ON in the OTHER-SETUP menu.
Is a built-in Closed Captions Decoder activated that actually decode the captions and place them as part of the output video frames, or are the captions on the DVD only embedded into line 21 of the output video frames from the player so that an external decoder or TV can decode the captions?
Thank you very much in advance.

I'll probably even be on the 8 O'clock news coast-to-coast in the US. :D :D :D

Perhaps I should not postpone my business trip, so that you ALL have to wait until the weekend Sep 10/11 for my report. ;)

I for one am very interested in what you find out from Panasonic, and await your upcoming report w/anxious enthusiasm. Also, if possible, it would be great if you could snap off a few pics of the displays & post them.

On another note, Pioneer is supposedly coming out w/a new 61"er and if you could querry them at the Show on their 1080p display it would be greatly appreciated.

DreamCatcher,
Thanks for responding. :)

What I would like to know is:

What happens when setting CAPTIONS to ON in the OTHER-SETUP menu.
Is a built-in Closed Captions Decoder activated that actually decode the captions and place them as part of the output video frames, or are the captions on the DVD only embedded into line 21 of the output video frames from the player so that an external decoder or TV can decode the captions?
Thank you very much in advance.
I hope someone here can answer this for you because I have no idea.
Checking the manual doesn't help much either. I would guess there is an internal decoder that decodes the captions.... but that's just a guess.

dc

I'll probably even be on the 8 O'clock news coast-to-coast in the US. :D :D :D

Perhaps I should not postpone my business trip, so that you ALL have to wait until the weekend Sep 10/11 for my report. ;)


Remember to go directly to Hall 26. ;)

http://vip8prod.messe-berlin.de/vip8_1/website/TSIService/MBService/webapp/Redaktionstool-Presse/ifa/detailansicht-e.jsp?url_logo=&fair=Presse-IFA&lang=en&newssys_id=18994

I hope someone here can answer this for you because I have no idea.
Checking the manual doesn't help much either. I would guess there is an internal decoder that decodes the captions.... but that's just a guess.

dcThe manual is online, so I have downloaded and read it, but I could also not figure it out from the manual. That’s why I hoped someone owning the 5910 could test it for me.

1: Connect the 5910 to a standard TV (with a closed caption decoder, which all TVs larger then 13” sold in the US after 1. July 1993 must come equipped with) using an analog connection with an interlaced signal.

2: On the TV make sure CC (Closed Caption) is turned OFF.

3: On the 5910 set CAPTIONS to OFF in the OTHER-SETUP menu.

4: Put a DVD with CC into the 5910 player and start playing it. Most R1 DVDs have CC (in addition to subtitles). Can be seen from the CC logo on the DVD case. The CC logos are shown on page 48 in the manual.

5: On the TV turn CC ON and wait for 45 seconds. No captions should be displayed.

6: On the TV turn CC OFF again and wait for 45 seconds.

7: On the 5910 set CAPTIONS to ON in the OTHER-SETUP menu and wait for 45 seconds. If captions now are shown, the 5910 has a built-in CC decoder.

If no captions are shown, the 5910 does not have a built-in CC decoder. Verify this by turning on CC on the TV and wait for 45 seconds. Captions should now be shown. If on the 5910 CAPTIONS now are set to OFF in the OTHER-SETUP menu, the captions should disappear on the TV.

Remember to go directly to Hall 26. ;)
SURE. Although according to the IFA exhibitor list (http://www1.messe-berlin.de/vip8_1/website/MesseBerlin/htdocs/www.ifa-berlin.de/de/AusstellerHallen/Ausstellersuche/IFA_Aussteller2005_180805.pdf), Panasonic has their main boot in Hall 5.

If nothing goes wrong, I will visit the IFA already tomorrow (Fri Sep 2, but please keep this between the two of us :)) and on Monday and on Tuesday next week. So hopefully you will get the first report already during the upcoming weekend (Sep 3/4). I have to go now, it’s getting late over here.

here is a little report from IFA

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050903/ifa3_04.jpg
Introducing 65 type full HD plasma televisions (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2fdocs%2f200 50903%2fifa03.htm)

Thanks, erdega79.


Is it just me, or is there a huge business opportunity in inventing halfway decent computer-based translation engines???:D

But seriously - thanks for the update.

It is such breaking news, unavailable through "regular" channels, which makes AVS a go-to place.

Is it just me, or is there a huge business opportunity in inventing halfway decent computer-based translation engines???:D


Indeed, there is an immense opportunity, as making decent translation engine is practically equal to emulating good deal of human brain activity in computer so you would be talking about brainy computers. But until now best brains have broken their teeth on this problem. (Now translate the last sentence into a very cryptic language our brains decipher with outmost ease :D ).

here is a little report from IFA

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050903/ifa3_04.jpg
Introducing 65 type full HD plasma televisions (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2fdocs%2f200 50903%2fifa03.htm)

Here we go again...just when I thought I had my Plasma Fever under control! OK Captain, feed the fire!

Must...have....information...soon...please, Captain Pike...