Well, if you have an HTPC you can use the Spyer2Pro software to automatically figure out the gamma curve, but in my experience it takes just as long to do and outputs the same result.

rader,

As I understand it, the Spyder2Pro upgrade from SpyderTV will be quite expensive.

Ofer - the ordinary retail upgrade pack seems to be working, so it's less than US$100 on the street to upgrade from the STV to the PRO.

I paid about $220 for the SpyderTv through a froogle.com site and $89 for the Spyder2 PRO software upgrade using the link Johnla provide several posts back. To me that is a bargain considering..
1. I don't have to pay $300+ to have an ISF tech come out everytime I buy a new DVD player, video card, xbox 360, etc to calibrate my set to the new source.
2. IMO it sets contrast, tint, brightness, and color settings better than DVE and Avia. For DVE the below black bars just barely disappear on the brightness and contrast setting screens. I don't think I ever was able to acheive the same result through manual calibration. Also it seems to get the tint setting dead on.
3. I can set grey scale and gamma using an easy to understand model like the one written by Gary.
4. I can use a more advanced model like Ursa wrote to have a feature set closer to Colorfacts.
5. Once the monitor is calibrated as well as I can get it I can create a monitor profile to compensate any uncorrected deficiencies.
6. I can calibrate all my computer monitors with the Spyder2Pro software (they now look 100% better)
I was a big fan of the Spyder 1, but the new sensor blows it away with it's ability to read color temp at low IREs.

rader

I cannot speak for other techs - but I warrant my work for a year to cover such changes - then repeat customers are half price. Aside from basic adjustments - changing component video sources really does not impact greyscale unless something is severly wrong with your system (grounding issues). I would presume other techs would do the same - once you get the customer set up right - update tweaking goes fairly quickly.

Nothing against DIY - I would never have started five years ago if ColorFacts was not reasonably priced (and I paid a lot more than ISF rate to get my Runco VX1 calibrated - so it was worth it).

I would stay away from any profile adjustment at all though - it can only lead to banding and dithering and clipping. You need a full range sweep pattern like AVIA PRO Deep ramps to see it though.

I do think the Spyder2 is a very good sensor compared to Spyder1 and even other current offerings. It just needs some unbiased testing! I have been using mine for a year and very pleased with the perfornance. I should ask for a gratis SpyderTV though because I got my Spyder2 before all this happened - and current ColorFacts6 Spyder2 buyers get SpyderTV thrown in.

Yeah, I was PWI when I wrote that last post so it came across as overly enthusiastic about the Spyder. Between Spyder1 and Spyder2 I have probably spent 50+ hours tweeking my set. For what I figure my time is worth it would have been cheaper to have an ISF tech do the same thing in one evening and be done with it.
I tried the monitor profile and encountered all the problems you describe. I think I need to calibrate the set better before a monitor profile will work. Another problem I think is I set brightness and contrast using DVD levels, and the monitor profiler expects PC levels. I havn't figured out a way around that one yet.

It has been noted that the results of my initial colorimeter comparison showed unacceptable (read: noticeable) color deviations in the Spyder2 with my Optoma H77 DLP front projector. Having been in contact with Colorvision, I received a new, retail packaged sensor. Thus, I set about clearing my living room for an evening to re-run my colorimeter comparison.

...more snippage...

The results are fairly interesting. For my DLP FP, the Spyder2 had fairly decent repeatability and accuracy. With the new STV sensor, repeatability was dead-on for my test. For all measurements above 0% stim (~0.3 Lux), x and y measurements rarely deviated by as much as 0.001!

Bill, sorry to drag up one of your initial posts, but I wanted to ask about this. Was there a definite conclusion that the second sensor you received represents the retail capability, or is it possible that it was just a wide sample variation that got you a better sensor the second time around? I guess, does anyone have any idea if the sample to sample variation in retail production SpyderTV sensors is small enough so that it won't really matter?

Tony - the second sensor came in the retail package. The first sensor was "raw", and I was explicitly told it was NOT the new sensor.

Okay, thanks Bill.

So, I calibrated 2 older Sony CRT's (20" and 32") and compared w/ AVIA.
I definitely like the deep blacks and the whiter whites, but my contrast is so high it causes geometry problems.
I can't see the moving black bars w/ AVIA and N&P pattern looks like it's in the blooming area.

Granted these are older models, but I always test products on these 2 models if I can. The picture is very bright and clear. Not dark looking like AVIA.
However, I feel blacks and whites are being clipped on the extremes. Is this the tradeoff?

Is human error really causing these huge variations? I will be calling Colorfacts for some advice when I can.

AdilM,

I also noticed that SpyderTV had me set contrast much higher than I normally would. I had contrast set on my 30" Sony to ~115 cd/m^2. The SpyderTV set it closer to 200 cd/m^2.

I asked Colorvision how they obtain the "optimal" contrast setting, but they wouldn't/couldn't tell me. This is not to say that they don't know. I am sure they just don't want to reveal too much about the software itself. In any event, I would like to know what Colorvision considers the optimal contrast setting because it seem much higher than I expected.

Thanks,
mark

So, I calibrated 2 older Sony CRT's (20" and 32") and compared w/ AVIA.
I definitely like the deep blacks and the whiter whites, but my contrast is so high it causes geometry problems.
I can't see the moving black bars w/ AVIA and N&P pattern looks like it's in the blooming area.

Granted these are older models, but I always test products on these 2 models if I can. The picture is very bright and clear. Not dark looking like AVIA.
However, I feel blacks and whites are being clipped on the extremes. Is this the tradeoff?

Is human error really causing these huge variations? I will be calling Colorfacts for some advice when I can.

AdilM,
You should now go to the additional images included in the STV package, and follow the instructions for the contrast, brightness, and color saturation images. Also, were you performing the measurements in a darkened room?

There is no way for the SpyderTV to detect CRT blooming as you would with the AVIA DVD.

So in the alternative they must be setting for a certain ftL, or looking for white clipping, or looking for colortemp shift in peak whites - which is what a calibrator would do manually.

The room was completely darkened. I generally only have time to do stuff like this very late anyway.
Hopefully, tomorrow night I will play w/ this again. I will look at the additional images again.

~200 cd/m^2 seems to be what it shoots for on the 2 CRT's.
I will give it a shot on a RPTV CRT and LCD and a Plasma when time permits.

Finally got my STV today and have a quick question: when using the STV software with the /support parameter, I get the Support Diagnostic Tool window with xyY data fields. So far so good, but when I try to do any reading, single or continuous, the software crashes with an access violation. Note that I'm not doing actual measurements yet, I justed wanted to see if everything was working and the sensor is hanging on a tripod measuring thin air.

Anyone have an idea what might be wrong? I'll see if actual measuring tonight works, but I'm not confident at this point.

edit: the access violation->termination behaviour is the same without the sensor plugged in.

edit2: also happens when I try to complete the setup wizard the soft starts with. I can enter the display info and when I click NEXT, it terminates with the same AVE (couldn't write to...). Reinstalled several times on several HDs, disabled virus scan for some tries, all to no avail.

Well, it works on another comp, so that's a start. Which brings me to an extremely important question:

How does one practically take these measurements? Where do I place the STV sensor and what read time do I use? Should each measurement be repeated a certain number of times to check its relative accuracy?

I'm trying to calibrate a H7x and the STV is tripod-mounted.

I received my SpyderTV yesterday and ran a calibration last night. I must say that I was very disappointed in the results, which were much worse than I have done with either Avia or DVE. The worst result was the brightness vs. contrast settings: the former was recommended to be set very low while the latter was recommended to be set very high. The result was very dark pictures. For example, on the first calibration screen on the DVD (the black screen), the white number 1 was not visable after calibrating with the Spyder. I didn't have time to re-run, but my initial impression was that this product is worse than eyeballing.

Well, it works on another comp, so that's a start. Which brings me to an extremely important question:

How does one practically take these measurements? Where do I place the STV sensor and what read time do I use? Should each measurement be repeated a certain number of times to check its relative accuracy?

I'm trying to calibrate a H7x and the STV is tripod-mounted.

Liersi - I think I covered most of this in the first post, but here goes:
1) You should put the sensor facing the projector. Off of the screen takes an extraordinarily long time to measure, and I have concerns about the reliability of the measurements. Until the next version of CF Pro comes out, with instructions on using the STV with CF Pro, we won't know for sure what the official position from Colorvision is.

2) I set the read time to 9 seconds to increase accuracy. At low light levels, the sensor returned some irrational values with a 4 second read time.

3) The repeatability of the retail STV has been greatly improved. I doubt you would get very significant deviation doing sequential measurements unless the sensor was drifting. I took multiple measurements in my colorimeter review just to qualify the repeatability claim on the sensor, but do not do so when I am calibrating.

4) The H7x is a beast to calibrate. After three hours on Saturday, I had a dE of 5 or less only from 70%+ on my H77. I had a decent, but not great, color balance from 30%+, and my yellows were noticeably improved (they were very green before). My CR is at 1900:1 with around 600 hours on the bulb and this will fall some more since my gamma is a whopping 2.9! Basically, I need to crash my brightness a little more to get the lower levels more in line, and the contrast needs to come down significantly to get the gamma under control. I'll be satisfied if I stay above 1500:1 when I'm done. This thing really needs a red filter to help balance the oversaturated, but underluminous red!

Later,
Bill

I received my SpyderTV yesterday and ran a calibration last night. I must say that I was very disappointed in the results, which were much worse than I have done with either Avia or DVE. The worst result was the brightness vs. contrast settings: the former was recommended to be set very low while the latter was recommended to be set very high. The result was very dark pictures. For example, on the first calibration screen on the DVD (the black screen), the white number 1 was not visable after calibrating with the Spyder. I didn't have time to re-run, but my initial impression was that this product is worse than eyeballing.

I have found that you should make sure that the initial brightness level is higher than the contrast level when you start out. I have seen STV do just what you went through. When the software gets confused, it can screw things up.

The room was completely darkened. I generally only have time to do stuff like this very late anyway.
Hopefully, tomorrow night I will play w/ this again. I will look at the additional images again.

~200 cd/m^2 seems to be what it shoots for on the 2 CRT's.
I will give it a shot on a RPTV CRT and LCD and a Plasma when time permits.

On the additional images, on the contrast panel, you should be able to make out ALL the rectangles (even though 1 and 2 will be hard to discern). The background itself will be the brightest white.

On the Black Level, retangles 1 and 2 should be barely visible.

On the report, what did it show you for the final black and white level measurements?

I did it again last night.
It takes ~20 minutes once you are used to the remotes.

~0.20 - ~480 cd/m^2 (initital setting) - clipped whites and clipped blacks and distortion

~0.20 - ~380 cd/m^2 (second time) - only change was I remembered to put the DVD player in 16:9 mode despite the practice TV being 4:3

Looked ok in the other test patterns this time. I will try to fix the geometry issues in the service menu.
One would think they should just go straight to the patterns for brightness and contrast.

-->I am happier w/ the end result.

I took the grayscale measurements too, but have not done anything w/ them yet. It looked like I was getting usable info at 20 IRE and consistent readings at 10 IRE.
Edit: Just so no one is misinformed, I meant consistent crap at 10 IRE.
I also noticed Ursa has a similar 32"Sony and his profile was very similar to mine, so it can't be that off on the 32"

Adil - My old 27" Sony had its brightness set too low by the software since we view it with a fair bit of ambient light on in the room. I found I needed to tick the brightness up a few notches from where the STV software set it in order to see the detail in the panther.

Later,
Bill

AdilM,

I would verify that there is no blooming at those light levels on a direct view CRT.

I have found that you should make sure that the initial brightness level is higher than the contrast level when you start out. I have seen STV do just what you went through. When the software gets confused, it can screw things up.

Thanks for this tip. Much, much better results!

To my eyes w/ Avia there appeared to be blooming, so I had toned it down.

Also, I ran a 2nd round w/ the SpyderTV and limited the range for the video settings to what I considered a tighter area based on the first run. This led me to believe it was more exact.

My concern is that blooming normally is a sign that data is being lost, b/c the CRT is overdriven, right?
Despite what I normally considered blooming, I can make out every square on the colorfacts and many other contrast screens.
Therefore, since this practice TV has very little value I left it based on the Spyder settings.


As a note I have tested this thing in support mode in the darkest room and during the day w/ lots of ambient light. It doesn't vary by more than 5/1000 of whatever unit it measures in.

I also used the support command and ran through the grayscale. Everything is w/i 200K, any closer (+-50K) required completely screwing up 30 IRE and below.
I did this based on the excel sheet flying around this forum.
It was a snap, but it seems to be contested as inaccurate.
All I can state is that the x, and y data track very close to ideal.
What else does one factor in to get to D65K?

I know I am doing things wrong, b/c I just jumped in to everything and it went too smoothly and everything done under an hour.

Has anyone figured out a compensation chart for the Spyder Colorimeter like people have for the Radio Shack SPL?

AdilM,

Blooming will loose resolution detail at high APL, but it should will not necessarily impact gray scale.

My comparisons of this device with a spectroradiometer have shown problems with accuracy on some displays like every other filter based colorimeter. I would not consider this device for professional use if that is your purpose.

Has anyone figured out a compensation chart for the Spyder Colorimeter like people have for the Radio Shack SPL?
I believe I addressed this very issue as the close to the third post in this thread.

I would never use this on a customer's TV until completely comfortable w/ it and never would go in the service menu, b/c almost everything we sell is new.
It's more of a personal interest purchase. I will still write it off ;).

Thanks for the heads up on the colorimeter comparison. I redid the greyscale using 30 IRE as my bottom limit. Now everything is w/i +-50 except the 400K drop at 20IRE.

Now I will go try out some different display technologies.

Just got the Sony SXRD and have read this forum and I bet I know the answer to the silly question but will this Spyder work on the LCoS?

Adilm: Does your greyscale look better after using it?

Just got the Sony SXRD and have read this forum and I bet I know the answer to the silly question but will this Spyder work on the LCoS?

...

I have tried mine on a Brillian LCoS and the xy readings had large errors.

I have tried mine on a Brillian LCoS and the xy readings had large errors.

Better than eyeballing it?

Better than eyeballing it?

I can eyeball the gray scale better than what it was off. The light meter is useful if you don't have anything better to measure gamma. The colorimeters performance is very similar to other filter based instruments. It will track reasonably well, but absolute accuracy is questionable in many cases. Be prepared to use an optical comparator to supplement this type of instrument.

Yes. the reddish tinge is gone in the 20-30 IRE and the blueish tinge is gone in the 100 IRE. Frankly, it's not that big a deal overall picture wise. I still want to know how they are setting the contrast/picture control, b/c I have a feeling this thing is skipping some important aspects of measuring this on a CRT.

So far I have only done CRT and soon to be CRT RPTV. Then I will hit up a plasma and some more current technology.
I rec'd one use 40 IRE and 30 IRE to check their cuts/biases and 90-100 IRE to get their amps/drives good. Use 9-12 sec for the reading, more consistent.
Based on Ursa's chart the SpyderTV is fairly accurate in the higher end compared to the Eyeone.

It is a time consuming process depending on how advanced youyr service menu is.

I have tried mine on a Brillian LCoS and the xy readings had large errors.


Just for the record, please try it after taking the LCD filter off the Spyder.

Just for the record, please try it after taking the LCD filter off the Spyder.

Here are the results for the Brillian set with a color near gray at 55 fL. With LCD filter x error 0.008, y error 0.014. No LCD filter x error 0.133, y error 0.020. Without the LCD filter is much worse. The error is based on a comparison with an Eye-One Pro.

The error in measuring the LCoS set with the LCD filter would correspond to a Delta E 1976 value of 8 and without it is 78. My goal is to have Delta E errors in gray scale color less than 5. It is difficult to achieve this if the instrument itself is off more than the specification.

I paid about $220 for the SpyderTv through a froogle.com site and $89 for the Spyder2 PRO software upgrade using the link Johnla provide several posts back. To me that is a bargain considering..
1. I don't have to pay $300+ to have an ISF tech come out everytime I buy a new DVD player, video card, xbox 360, etc to calibrate my set to the new source.
2. IMO it sets contrast, tint, brightness, and color settings better than DVE and Avia. For DVE the below black bars just barely disappear on the brightness and contrast setting screens. I don't think I ever was able to acheive the same result through manual calibration. Also it seems to get the tint setting dead on.
3. I can set grey scale and gamma using an easy to understand model like the one written by Gary.
4. I can use a more advanced model like Ursa wrote to have a feature set closer to Colorfacts.
5. Once the monitor is calibrated as well as I can get it I can create a monitor profile to compensate any uncorrected deficiencies.
6. I can calibrate all my computer monitors with the Spyder2Pro software (they now look 100% better)
I was a big fan of the Spyder 1, but the new sensor blows it away with it's ability to read color temp at low IREs.

Killer Deal!

I just baught a Spyder2 Pro for $199 here in So. Cal at a well known retailer that starts with an F, has four letters and is also a favorite junk food that follows the word french. The sale ends on 10/11/05. No rebate needed. I hope it works well for me.

They also had the SpyderTV for something like 250-270.

Was it a v1 or v2?

no BTB/WTWHuh?

BTB = Blacker-than-black, video signals coded below digital 16.
WTW = Whiter-than-white, video signals coded above digital 235.

People frequently try to talk about IRE levels below 7.5 as BTB, but that is an ambiguous usage of IRE.

http://www.fourcc.org/fccyvrgb.php
QUOTE:
Y is [16,235] (220 steps) and the valid ranges for Cr and Cb are [16,239] (235 steps) These are normalized ranges and when the data is used, 16 is added to Y and 128 is added from Cr and Cb to de-normalize them. The reason for this is that control and colorburst information is stored in the components along with the luminence and chromiance data which is why the full range of [0,255] is not used. There is no "rumor" about this being correct. It is a defined standard for YCrCb video. I wouldn't be surprised if certain PC programs are using a variant where the entire range of [0,255] is used but technically it is not YCrCb. If you use YCrCb for video purposes, its probably going to be CCIR 601 compliant. I don't know why you would use YCrCb for anything else as many rendering operations are extremely expensive to do in the non-linear YCrCb color space relative to the linear RGB color space.

thomas

So I was playing w/ the 32" Sony after doing a 13" and 20" Sony.
The smaller sizes have good grayscale tracking and the color decoder was adjustable on the 20.

The 32 is older and when I check the Grayscale at 100 IRE I get
x = .299
y = .440
This is with the amps and biases minimized.
I have the grayscale at ideal at 30 IRE, but if I adjust the amps I can only get the grayscale to
x = .284
y = .329

There is no way to raise the x value.
What is the best compromise in this situation?
I have read to not veer towards green.
Will changing the contrast or brightness help?
Maybe adjust the contrast down to help the blue keep up w/ the Green?

I also read that some people lower brightness before checking 20-30 IRE and some raise contrast before checking 90-100 IRE. Why? Why not put it at optimal values before and after?

TIA.

http://www.snellwilcox.com/knowledgecenter/glossary/?c=b
Blacker than Black
Jargon for the video signal parts below reference black level, for instance, the luminance signal overshoots after a white-to-black transition.

Note that CCIR601 Quantization Scale provides 15 levels of headroom below reference black to allow some Black.

The above quote is from Snell & Wilcox glossary of terms, I find the first part explaining my position ie how high frequency edge detail "white-to-black transition" is overshoot data. Even the second part is accurate as well, this is how below black pluge information is encoded below reference 0IRE :) or 0mV blanking level.

Remember information below 16 is NOT calibrated to be displayed. Luminance picture information ie CCIR 601 after D/A should be 0IRE-100IRE. One would be mis understanding the calibration process, by saying DVDs are mastered with luminance values 1-255 white-to-black, I'm trying to say the "OVERSHOOT" is white-to-black transition data, and NOT luminance grey level quanta.

EDIT:
The above is an example of what is refereed to as negative weighting, true black level is revealed in the vertical interval ie an average DC component over the longer interval.

thomas

Was it a v1 or v2?
Spyder2 Pro V.2. Some of the boxes included the trypod shoe adapter. I made sure to grab one of them. I think the others where with v1.x of the software, but you can download it from the website I think and i think they'll provide you the trypod shoe adapter for free.

I want to get the Spyder TV software. Does anyone know how to get it?

People frequently try to talk about IRE levels below 7.5 as BTB, but that is an ambiguous usage of IRE.

Now thats FUNNY because thats "exactly" what the (+3.5IRE/AKA-4IRE) high freq. detail simulation pulse "is". Thats right, the pluge pulse is really encoded edge detail in the vertical interval. Instead of looking at a waveform in the horizontal interval, look at the average baseline in the vertical, an there is your "black level"
remeber high freq edge black-to-white is OVERSHOOT data, this way large area edge detail is not lost, although high freq. horizontal detail is the price! ie NEGATIVE WEIGHTING :)
http://www.tek.com/site/ps/0,,25-11140-SPECS_EN,00.html
:rolleyes: QUOTE:

Low Frequency Error: Measured as the peak-to-peak amplitude of the most extreme sampled fluctuations from black-level that are in the frequency band between 10 Hz and 2 kHz. Expressed as a % of sampled bar.


thomas

The error in measuring the LCoS set with the LCD filter would correspond to a Delta E 1976 value of 8 and without it is 78. My goal is to have Delta E errors in gray scale color less than 5. It is difficult to achieve this if the instrument itself is off more than the specification.

Thank you for the advice. I used DVE's % gray fields and except for the lowest one ( which is 20%?) x,y numbers are much closer to ideal and the greyscale looks tons better.

It does have a tendency to push the contrast and brightness settings to their limit vs DVE calibrations. Picture looks very "hot"as a result. It's hard to know which is more "accurate" since my old HD2 DLP doesn't have that range.

Aside: how rampant is chrom aber/convergence in the Qualia's?

...

Aside: how rampant is chrom aber/convergence in the Qualia's?

All RPTV's in this price range will have some chromatic abberation. I have not seen serious problems on any Qualia with respect to this. They are the best RPTV that I have seen.

All RPTV's in this price range will have some chromatic abberation. I have not seen serious problems on any Qualia with respect to this. They are the best RPTV that I have seen.

Thanks. I don't want to get off this topic, so if you wouldn't mind commenting more on my recent post on the Qualia thread, I would greatly appreciate it.

Spyder2 Pro V.2. Some of the boxes included the trypod shoe adapter. I made sure to grab one of them. I think the others where with v1.x of the software, but you can download it from the website I think and i think they'll provide you the trypod shoe adapter for free.

I want to get the Spyder TV software. Does anyone know how to get it?
There is not a software upgrade path right now from the PRO to the TV AFAIK, and one should be prepared that there may not be (they were discussing it, but an upgrade path from the TV to the PRO was definitely in the works. The reverse was on the plan, but with no date attached...).

As I've said before, if you have a digital display, you definitely want the v2 of the PRO package in order to get the newer sensor. The software upgrade is essential, too, but the hardware is the more important consideration.

Later,
Bill

I'm kinda confused. I have a CRT-based RPTV, a DLP-based RPTV, and an lCD TV. Which product is best for me; SpyderTV or Spyder Pro? Should I get the Pro from F...'s for $199 or $220 +/- for TV?

Either the STV or the PRO will work, but make sure you get the 2.0 version of the PRO for the new hardware (not the v1.0 with a s/w upgrade).

I'm kinda confused. I have a CRT-based RPTV, a DLP-based RPTV, and an lCD TV. Which product is best for me; SpyderTV or Spyder Pro? Should I get the Pro from F...'s for $199 or $220 +/- for TV?

Unless you're using a HTPC to run those TVs, you'll need the SpyderTV. Pro is designed for calibrating the display on a PC while running the Pro software. It automates the whole process for you, creating a Color Management profile. So it in effect adjusts your video cards settings to calibrate the display. The good thing is that if you want to also use the SpyderTV colorimeter on a PC, you can just buy the software upgrade to SpyderPro 2.0.

Thanks, Bill & Lee.

Hi
Let me see if I have this straight. I have a CRT front projector that has a HTPC , dvd player /scaler and HDTV.SpyderTV would be the best choice since I don't need to calibrate monitors?
Andrew

The SpyderTV software package does NOT currently support FP. Though in the future it will. I do not know if the SpyderPro package handles FP either, though someone here should be able to answer that.

CRT front projectors have been accurate (at higher light levels) since the Spyder1 and OptiCAL days. It is less critical which version you have with a CRT FP. You will have a measurement challenge at extremely low light levels since you will generally need to read off of the screen, but that is a different issue.

Charles Black and Brian Hampton have a very extensive thread in the CRT FP forum on using Spyders.

Could use I a little help in deciphering my test results.

The recommended settings by the Spyder gave less than optimum results; blacks were severly crushed. The brightness setting according to the graph turns on at the half way point in the TVs settings telling me that the CRT cut-off voltage is set too high (I think some of you use the term cut or bias), that is it takes a more voltage to turn on the gun. The addional test paterns on the Spyder DVD showed a good gradient for contrast but the graph is way non-linear. It also reported really high luminance, 1500 cd/m^2 which is suspect. So either my Spyder has a hardware problem or its time to dive into the service menu which I loath to do.

Could use I a little help in deciphering my test results.

The recommended settings by the Spyder gave less than optimum results; blacks were severly crushed. The brightness setting according to the graph turns on at the half way point in the TVs settings telling me that the CRT cut-off voltage is set too high (I think some of you use the term cut or bias), that is it takes a more voltage to turn on the gun. The addional test paterns on the Spyder DVD showed a good gradient for contrast but the graph is way non-linear. It also reported really high luminance, 1500 cd/m^2 which is suspect. So either my Spyder has a hardware problem or its time to dive into the service menu which I loath to do.

Try it again, but this time set up your contrast to the halfway mark, and brightness up to about 40 for it's initial settings. Set HUE and COLOR to their midrange as well. Turn sharpness off. Run the SpyderTV through its pass again. You should NOT be in a well lit room. If it is still wrong, you may want to try it on some other TV to see if it is indeed the culprit. If it proves defective, it has a 2-year warranty on it.

Be sure that the suction cup is clicked on properly, and that the SpyderTV sensor is flush with your screen. On my RPTV I use a tripod, since the first time I used the SpyderTV, it fell off.

Folks,
I have a (stupid?) question...

Does the Spyder TV or Pro package come with a DVD which you play while calibrating the monitor/TV/projector?

[I am thinking from the perspective of comparing Spyder stuff to the AVIA/DVE disks I have been using]

I ask so because ...(consider my scenarios)

Scenario #1
My CRT Projector is hooked up to a HTPC. I am guessing when I use the Spyder stuff it will calibrate my desktop (and any other application that does NOT use the video overlay) but not the video overlay, right?

In other words, my desktop's parameters will be adjusted by the Spyder. But what about the video overlay while playing DVDs or HDTV feeds via the HDTV tuner card??

I always see a lot of difference between my desktop and my video overlay. The desktop appears good but the video is way off!

Tips?

Scenario #2

My Projector is connected to the DVD player. Then I guess I'll need some sort of input FROM my DVD player going to the PJ. But where does Spyder come into picture here?

Thanks for all tips/answers.

-Rajiv

Folks,
I have a (stupid?) question...

Does the Spyder TV or Pro package come with a DVD which you play while calibrating the monitor/TV/projector?

[I am thinking from the perspective of comparing Spyder stuff to the AVIA/DVE disks I have been using]

I ask so because ...(consider my scenarios)

Scenario #1
My CRT Projector is hooked up to a HTPC. I am guessing when I use the Spyder stuff it will calibrate my desktop (and any other application that does NOT use the video overlay) but not the video overlay, right?

In other words, my desktop's parameters will be adjusted by the Spyder. But what about the video overlay while playing DVDs or HDTV feeds via the HDTV tuner card??

I always see a lot of difference between my desktop and my video overlay. The desktop appears good but the video is way off!

Tips?

Scenario #2

My Projector is connected to the DVD player. Then I guess I'll need some sort of input FROM my DVD player going to the PJ. But where does Spyder come into picture here?

Thanks for all tips/answers.

-Rajiv

DVD - The STV does come with a DVD (think of it as a radically cut-down version of AVIA or DVE)

Scenario #1 - You want the Spyder2PRO for this, and by going the "profile" route, it will make changes to your video card's controls. How those controls affect the various rendering pipelines (2D, 3D, overlay) is driver and card dependent. Most likely, though, is that they will not impact your overlay.

Scenario #2 - Your projector has controls. You want to adjust these first and foremost. See my rant early in the thread about "profiles" being left until you have calibrated your display device as fas as it can go.

Later,
Bill

Ursa

sorry I am a little confused after reading the 10 pages of this thread.

I have an optoma H77 connected to a Pioneer DVD player.

I also have a plasma connected to a DVD player.

I have a IMAC.

I have both DVE + AVIA

I wish to calibrate all three. I will want to get the sypder2 Pro.

Is there a difference in
1) buying spyderTV then upgrading to Pro
2) buying spyder2Pro Studio 2 (which is cheaper locally)

Does the spyderTV have something the spyder2Pro package doesn't?

And how do I verify that I have the version 2.0 with the new hadware. As I am intending to get it from a local reseller in Singapore, I need to check that I have the new hardware

I read that you have posted something commercial for spyder but I cannot seems to find it. Can you post/pm me the link?

Sorry if any of this has been answered, I did read the WHOLE thread but am still confused.

Thanks for any help

anyway I went and got a spyder2pro package from my reseller.

It came with a tripod adapter, and a ticker on the box that says it can calibrate projectors. BUT the software CD is ver 1.x. So is my sensor V1 or V2?? Anyway to find out?

If it came with the tripod adapter, then you probably have the v2.0 hardware. I am STILL waiting on a definitive way to tell whether you have the upgraded hardware from Colorvision.

As for the commercial product, it is the one referenced in this thread, and it is on hold right this second. Expect to hear something from me soon on it.

Later,
Bill

Has anyone had a chance to try this out on a CRT based RPTV? I would like to know how accurate the sensor is with respect to this type of unit.

Thanks,
Mark

anyway,

I hope my sensor is the new one. Anyway I realised the 4CL software is for MAC. The program reads the software version 4CL on my MAC and 3CL on my PC.

4CL on my Mac as well. Haven't tried it on my PC yet.

Mark

I too recently purchased the SpyderTV to calibrate my Mitsubishi WD-62525 DLP. It seemed to work fine in all areas except contrast. The software advises me to set contrast 1 notch below max ( 62 out of 63 ) which after a few minutes of viewing at this level is enough to burn a persons eyes. I have run through the setup process at least 10 times and get pretty much the same results. So my question is does the spyderTv not work properly with DLPs ? Has anyone else setup up a DLP with the spyderTV ? I have had trouble setting contrast in other setup disks ( avia , THX ) since when viewing the white square tests , the squares never lose their seperation as they do on CRT tvs. No blooming either.

Has anyone setup their DLP (particularly a mits DLP) with spyderTV with good results?

Thanks alot !!

Burn people's eyes? Is there a noticeable color shift or is it just too bright?

Later,
Bill

The contrast it recomends is too bright !!!

The contrast it recomends is too bright !!!

I agree. I've tried this on a CRT based RPTV and a direct view CRT and both contrast settings are almost twice as high as I had them set previously.

Mark

Bdono

for setting contrast with DLP with AVIA - you use the moving white bars similar to the moving black bars pattern. It is the first pattern in the consumer video - ignore the instructions about blooming and bending as that is for CRT.

I would think SpyderTV is also trying to max out contrast using a similar white clipping test - but indeed for a TV you may find it too bright without a bias light.

Bdono

for setting contrast with DLP with AVIA - you use the moving white bars similar to the moving black bars pattern. It is the first pattern in the consumer video - ignore the instructions about blooming and bending as that is for CRT.

I would think SpyderTV is also trying to max out contrast using a similar white clipping test - but indeed for a TV you may find it too bright without a bias light.
I've tried the moving white bars pattern and nothing seems to change whn i adjust contrast , they just get brighter ir dimmer.

pardon my ignorance but what is a bias light ?

thanks

I've tried the moving white bars pattern and nothing seems to change whn i adjust contrast , they just get brighter ir dimmer.

pardon my ignorance but what is a bias light ?

thanks

You can check out Cinemaquest's website (http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lume.htm) for information about bias lighting.

Along the lines of setting contrast, does anyone have any suggestions for possible levels given screen size and seating distance? I ask because I have always considered contrast to be somewhat of a subjective setting given that certain factors are met. I may be able to drive my display to the max without adversely effecting the picture, but it still might not be a pleasing experience if it is so bright as to be fatiguing on the eyes.

Mark

I would think SpyderTV is also trying to max out contrast using a similar white clipping test - but indeed for a TV you may find it too bright without a bias light.
Kevin - This is what it is doing, though it does pay attention to colorimetry somewhat as well. If contrast is too bright, then I would definitely recommend turning it down a bit.

Later,
Bill

Kevin - This is what it is doing, though it does pay attention to colorimetry somewhat as well. If contrast is too bright, then I would definitely recommend turning it down a bit.

Later,
Bill

So, is it safe to say that you can back off contrast to a comfortable level without effecting other settings? Or, should one use the SpyderTV to set contrast, back it off, and then re-evaluate other settings such as color, tint, and brightness?

Thanks,
Mark

Mark - The answer is a qualified "yes". If you are calibrating using the /support flag, then changes in contrast will need to be balanced potentially by a change in brightness. For normal users, just lower the contrast to something that works for your eyes in your set-up. I would caution you to make sure that you do it with representative lighting. What's too bright in pitch black might be insufficient with some lamps on in the room with you.

If you go into /support mode, then run a measurement using the contrast measurement patter with the STV. If you are north of 500 - 600 cd/m^2, then you are probably a bit too bright for comfort (plasma territory and beyond; FP owners - this is measured at the screen...).

Later,
Bill

Mark - The answer is a qualified "yes". If you are calibrating using the /support flag, then changes in contrast will need to be balanced potentially by a change in brightness. For normal users, just lower the contrast to something that works for your eyes in your set-up. I would caution you to make sure that you do it with representative lighting. What's too bright in pitch black might be insufficient with some lamps on in the room with you.

If you go into /support mode, then run a measurement using the contrast measurement patter with the STV. If you are north of 500 - 600 cd/m^2, then you are probably a bit too bright for comfort (plasma territory and beyond; FP owners - this is measured at the screen...).

Later,
Bill

Thanks for the update Bill. I generally try to make any changes to my display during typical viewing times and lighting conditions so that won't be a problem.

So, with respect to the SpyderTV software, I assume one could run the entire process, back off contrast, and then run the process again and exclude the contrast setting from the initial setup? Frankly, I prefer the results for brightness based on DVE however, contrast is difficult (if not damn near impossible) to set without a sensor (on my CRT based displays that is).

Finally, for the more advanced hobbyist, wouldn't you need to take contrast into account with respect to gamma?

Mark

I've tried the moving white bars pattern and nothing seems to change whn i adjust contrast , they just get brighter ir dimmer.

thanks


Your DVD player may need video adjustment if you are always clipped or never clipped.

But you really cannot crank on the contrast control that much with digital sets - it lowers your marketed contrast ratio - and it can lead to banding. So adjusting contrast too much can cause other problems. It is not like a volume control for the CRT gun anymore....

Hi People,

I just did some readings using spyder2pro for the first time and I used the DVE IRE test patterns. I have an optoma H77 and Pioneer 969 DVD player. Basically I took readings with the spyder pointing at the screen and the projector. I find that the readings very far off, x=0.274 and y=0.316 but they are consistent and easily repeatable.

Can my projector be that FAR off?

I can't get my spyder to read anywhere close to x=.3127 y=.329. I have calibrated my MAC LCD so opened photoshoped and entered the values for a color which is 6500k and measured using the spyder. it gave me x=.280 y=.316 ... Is something wrong with my colorimeter setting?

I have a question, how do you initialize the spyder? I just pointed it to my white LCD monitor (calibrated using the spyder2pro) and hit initialize. Is that the correct method? One of the earlier post suggest pointing the spyder to the projector to initialize.

Thanks for any help.

I just did some readings using spyder2pro for the first time and I used the DVE IRE test patterns. I have an optoma H77 and Pioneer 969 DVD player. Basically I took readings with the spyder pointing at the screen and the projector. I find that the readings very far off, x=0.274 and y=0.316 but they are consistent and easily repeatable.

Can my projector be that FAR off?

Yes. See the first post (that wide deviation in red, blue and green means that the colorimetry was way off on mine out-of-the-box). As for testing the calibration on the sensor, you need to validate it against a known good reference if you are going that route. Otherwise:

1) Your Mac LCD is calibrated to what white point with what equipment? Is it really reference quality?
2) If your LCD is spot-on for D65, then any RGB triplet were the values are equal should be on the D65 point. What exactly are you entering in Photoshop?
3) Delta E is your friend here...

Later,
Bill

Yes. See the first post (that wide deviation in red, blue and green means that the colorimetry was way off on mine out-of-the-box). As for testing the calibration on the sensor, you need to validate it against a known good reference if you are going that route. Otherwise:

1) Your Mac LCD is calibrated to what white point with what equipment? Is it really reference quality?
2) If your LCD is spot-on for D65, then any RGB triplet were the values are equal should be on the D65 point. What exactly are you entering in Photoshop?
3) Delta E is your friend here...

Later,
Bill

You cannot determine xy offsets for one light source from a different light source if that is what is being implied here. It would be better to use a good optical comparator as the reference and then determine the offsets after calibrating one gray window to match the comparator. For example after matching a gray window to an optical comparator the Spyder reads +0.010 in x and -0.008 in y then you would subtract 0.010 from x and add 0.008 to y reading from the Spyder to calibrate other window patterns.

Jeff - My implication was that one should not assume the LCD as a reference against which to compare the performance of the Spyder unless it was known to be good from a valid instrument.

As for this statement:
You cannot determine xy offsets for one light source from a different light source if that is what is being implied here. It would be better to use a good optical comparator as the reference and then determine the offsets after calibrating one gray window to match the comparator.

I am not sure how this reconciles. Definitionally when you use an optical comparator with an emissive display you are using two different light sources. If you are using a card set, then you are at the mercy of the ambient lighting vs. the display, and if you are using something else (e.g., BVM) then it has its own light source. It is only when you are comparing two printed pieces (reflective color) that you can achieve unity of light source.

If your argument is one of degree, rather than absolute, for emissive displays, then you may want to alter your wording a bit. If we are talking about the mechanics of training a sensor to mimic another, then you do definitely need to use a consistent light source, but again, the optical comparator fails here unless you are training a sensor to calibrate an emissive comparator.

Later,
Bill

Bill,

I will take another shot at this.

Your eye can judge D65 no matter what the light source is. An infinite combination of visible spectra can be combined to generate a D65 image. As long as the optical comparator is D65 or reasonably close it can be used by your eye as a calibration reference. Once the display is set to match the D65 comparator with your eyes the display itself is now D65, hopefully. Any error you measure on the display with the Spyder on the calibrated window is then assumed to be error in the Spyder itself. This is of course a huge assumption, but if everything else is done well not a bad one.

When you take a colorimeter and measure one set of spectra like an LCD screen that is D65 it really tells you nothing about what it will do with another spectra. My SpyderTV matches D65 very well on some displays and on others it is very poor. This is typical behavior for a filter based colorimeter. Using an optical comparator as a reference is a common tool for touching up the color in the face of these challenges.

Just to be clear I am not talking about ever measuring the comparator with the Spyder just the display that is being calibrated.

You can get reasonably close to D65 with various comparators if one is careful, but it does increase the cost and complexity of using the Spyder.

Yes. See the first post (that wide deviation in red, blue and green means that the colorimetry was way off on mine out-of-the-box). As for testing the calibration on the sensor, you need to validate it against a known good reference if you are going that route. Otherwise:

1) Your Mac LCD is calibrated to what white point with what equipment? Is it really reference quality?
2) If your LCD is spot-on for D65, then any RGB triplet were the values are equal should be on the D65 point. What exactly are you entering in Photoshop?
3) Delta E is your friend here...

Later,
Bill

1) it was calibrated to 6500k using the spyder2pro
2) I set the RGB values at 94/101/114 using a CIE calculator on the web. Now I realise after reading your post that this is wrong. I should set equal RGB values. After setting equal RGB values, I find that the readings are much closer to what I expect.

so I guess my H77 is really that off. I think I will try tuning the settings on my H77 tonight.

One observation, it doesn't seem to matter where I point the spyder when I am initializing. I still get the same readings if I point it at the white patch on my LCD or I just leave it on the table... Is that normal?

Another question is x=.280 y=.316 very far off? I did try to calibrate by eye using AVIA/dVE and i THOUGHT my picture was pretty natural. :(

thanks for you help

Hi all,

After reading the whole 12 pages of this thread, I'm still confused of which package/software I should buy/use.

I'm using a LCD HDTV that is driven by a HTPC. So I reckon the Spyder2PRO software is better suited for my case?

One observation, it doesn't seem to matter where I point the spyder when I am initializing. I still get the same readings if I point it at the white patch on my LCD or I just leave it on the table... Is that normal?

Another question is x=.280 y=.316 very far off? I did try to calibrate by eye using AVIA/dVE and i THOUGHT my picture was pretty natural. :(

Don't worry too much on initializing the sensor. It is not like the EyeOne that needs to periodically be "re-centered".

As for (0.280, 0.316), this is considerably off. How off it is depends upon the light level.

Later,
Bill

Guys,

I was wondering: I don't like the high gamma I'm getting on my Spyder calibrations. Is there a way to influence gamma at all in the user or service controls apart from the preselectable gamma curves? I'm using the smoothest available curve, but it sadly results in said high gamma (around 2.6 after latest calibrations).

Guys,

I was wondering: I don't like the high gamma I'm getting on my Spyder calibrations. Is there a way to influence gamma at all in the user or service controls apart from the preselectable gamma curves? I'm using the smoothest available curve, but it sadly results in said high gamma (around 2.6 after latest calibrations).
I assume you are talking about changing the controls on your display? If so, then lowering the contrast should/might also decrease the gamma. However, it depends upon how the display is designed as to how much of an impact this has.

Later,
Bill

Yes, on the display. I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. I've had to lower the contrast to cope with the red runout, but that didn't lower the gamma. I'll see if the other curve mentioned for the H78 (cinema and gamma3) is not as S-shaped as gamma 2. My room is pretty dark and light-controlled and the walls around the screen have black curtains, but it's not a cave and the high gamma does make the image a bit flat.

Liersi - TV Gamma 1 is the smoothest. For the H7x (simplistically), set the contrast and brightness in the user menu according to your favorite test pattern. Then, use the service menu to balance the primaries. Finally, use the user menu contrast to bring down the gamma if it is too high. Expect to lose a big chunk of on/off contrast ratio here.

Later,
Bill

Greg Rogers review of the H79 had the gamma curves shown in Widescreen Review, so if you are a subscriber or have the magazine, you can see how they look.

Gary

Not a subscriber unfortunately, but if I can't get gamma down somehow using his recommended TV gamma1 curve I'll have to try something else...

Liersi,

A Lumagen scaler is a brute force way of fixing display problems if you run out of options with your H78. However, I was able to achieve a very nice gamma of 2.3 on the last one I calibrated using only the projector controls. It may be cheaper to hire someone to calibrate yours if you cannot fix it yourself.

Try TV gamma 3 and see what you think.

Gary

Gamma 3 still gives me an S-shaped curve. Frustrating, I'm really happy with what I'm getting using gamma 1, except for the high gamma. Is gamma 3 giving you a smooth curve Gary?

Jeff, it's not so much that I wouldn't consider hiring someone, it's just that I'm having a blast learning this stuff. I enjoy it and can't tell you guys enough how much I appreciate all input. If in the end I'm worn out and everyone on my screen looks like they had a long vacation on Mars I'll give my money to a pro, for sure.

Hi Liersi,

I've attached a pic of the gamma curve that I achieved using Colorfacts. It has a very slight hump around 90IRE but it's much less than the other gammas.

I enjoy learning about this subject too, and I find having some hands on can be a great way to learn, and using Colorfacts (or similar) can help quite a bit.

Gary

I have SpyderTv and noticed it has different settings based on which DVD player I use Panasonic or JVC. Neither has adjustable settings.
This affects all of the settings.
Well crap.
Do I have to program each input type separately: RF, composite, S-video, and Component?
I thought if you program S-video it woul apply to the lower end connections.

So what's a "standard" DVD player?
Please clear this up fro me.
TIA.

What displays does Spyder have issues w/?
LCOS, DLP and ?

I have SpyderTv and noticed it has different settings based on which DVD player I use Panasonic or JVC. Neither has adjustable settings.
This affects all of the settings.
Well crap.
Do I have to program each input type separately: RF, composite, S-video, and Component?
I thought if you program S-video it woul apply to the lower end connections.

So what's a "standard" DVD player?
Please clear this up fro me.
TIA.

What displays does Spyder have issues w/?
LCOS, DLP and ?

For best results, I would recommend configuring each input separately if you can. For instance, if your DVD player is attached to your display via component and your cable box is attached using S-Video, you will need a separate set of setting for component input vs. the S-Video input.

Differences between players is pretty typical - at least in my experience. Frankly, the only way you can guarantee accuracy is with a signal generator. Barring that resource, the best you can do is use your DVD player.

Hope this helps,
Mark

The very reason these adjustments exist is that DVD players do not follow standards - no matter if composite, S-Video, Component 480i, Component HD, DVI-PC or DVI-Video - there is always something screwed up with the source. Maybe if you were paying for professional broadcast players they would follow standards - but even then I doubt it based on the variability in the TV channels.

Frankly, the only way you can guarantee accuracy is with a signal generator. Barring that resource, the best you can do is use your DVD player.

The Player is actually preferred, because as you note, because of player variation, aligning to a signal generator does not align you to the player unless the player is correct and matches the signal generator. If it does not, then you have a mis-aligned playback chain.

The Player is actually preferred, because as you note, because of player variation, aligning to a signal generator does not align you to the player unless the player is correct and matches the signal generator. If it does not, then you have a mis-aligned playback chain.

True - in the case of the DVD player. However if you plan on configuring other devices such as your cable box, DVR, etc (which typically don't have the capability of generating test patterns), then a signal generator is your best bet. Of course most of us don't have one so the common practice is to use the DVD player.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I thought the original post was asking how to configure other inputs.

Thanks,
Mark

If you are doing greyscale then the display is more variable than the source and you are OK with the signal generator.

But with SpyderTV adjusting basic adjustments - then you do need to figure out how to get the test pattern on the source. Either late nite test patterns - or a channel 3 RF modulator should get you patterns. Radio shack has a $50 DVD modulator kit since most DVD players have dropped the RF out. At least this way you are tuning for the sources outputs - with hopes that the AGC on RF inputs is equalizing out the levels.

Either late nite test patterns

Other than the HDNet patterns, is there a particular channel you'd recommend?

Mark

greyscale is really more within the display than in the signal chain there kras.

Yeah mark, that's what I was getting at. If you can't get patterns through a particular source, you should use some other signal that should be the same standard as your calibration target, preferably from a generator.

Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse the matter :D

Mark

oh no worries! that's an impossibility, because with me that's the norm :D at most perhaps the confusion was amplified ;)

Well you might have to stay up and watch softcore porn on HBO/Cinemax and wait for the channel to go off the air for a testpattern. Just tell the WAF you are calibrating....

Using the spydertv to calibrate my Mits DLP .... Heres the results it spit out :

Blacks .281 cd/m2
Whites 116.887 cd/m2

Im new to this whole Digital theater thingy , but is that a typical contrast ratio for a DLP. Thats far off the advertised 2500:1 stated for this TV. Can anyone else post their results.

Thanks

I wouldn't rely on the spyder for on/off contrast readings to be honest, I'd use a dedicated light meter instead as I think it's more likely to be accurate.

My Optoma H78 (non DC3) is giving around 2700:1 with a lens filter in place @D65. The H79 can give 2900:1 @D65 without a filter. The Benq 7700 gave around 1800:1 with just the black and white levels set and not at D65. You can easily reduce the advertised lumens and contrast by around 40% to give you a more accurate figure of what the pj will do when set for video.

Gary.

Gary

for bright things such as TV's (or 2' projector images) - it will do just fine - I have had mine up to 400ftL with no problems. 3500:1 stable contrast readings. Consistent across different models. The Spyder2 has much better black sensitivity than any of the other sensors currently in use - including the Spyder1, TrichoMat OEMs, and GMB Beamer.

Bdono
It may have knocked your contrast down if your gamma curve is blowing out the color temp of bright whites. Do you have any other gamma curves to try? Knocking contrast down on digital TV's is not recommended since it severely reduces contrast ratio. And calibrating for dummies 101 - did you do your calibration in the dark?

krasmuzik wrote:
> you might have to stay up and watch softcore porn on HBO/Cinemax and wait for the channel to go off the air for a testpattern. <

HBO has half an hour of color bars once a month, but I ignore them, because they're in SD even on the HD channels. HDNet has some good test patterns every week (moved to 6am now).

- Tim

I too recently purchased the SpyderTV to calibrate my Mitsubishi WD-62525 DLP. It seemed to work fine in all areas except contrast. The software advises me to set contrast 1 notch below max ( 62 out of 63 ) which after a few minutes of viewing at this level is enough to burn a persons eyes. I have run through the setup process at least 10 times and get pretty much the same results. So my question is does the spyderTv not work properly with DLPs ? Has anyone else setup up a DLP with the spyderTV ? I have had trouble setting contrast in other setup disks ( avia , THX ) since when viewing the white square tests , the squares never lose their seperation as they do on CRT tvs. No blooming either.

Has anyone setup their DLP (particularly a mits DLP) with spyderTV with good results?

Thanks alot !!

I have the 52725 and was wondering about the SpyderTV. As you know the Mits has the general color/tint setting for video, but also has the PerfectColor settings for each input (which allows you to set each color level separately). Does the SpyderTV allow you to customize the software to use the PerfectColor adjustments instead of the general "Color/Tint" adjustment bar? I would think that would be more accurate. Thanks.

No , the spyderTV only adjusts the color and tint , not individual colors. I used the spyderTV to adjust the color and tint , then used the red, blue and green filters from my avia dvd to adjust the " perfect color" settings. Using the red ,blue and green filters i matched the corresponding colors to the first grey bar. Colors came out good.

I still think the SpyderTV has trouble with contrast as it sets mine 2 notches from max which is almost unwhatchable.

I have the 52725 and was wondering about the SpyderTV. As you know the Mits has the general color/tint setting for video, but also has the PerfectColor settings for each input (which allows you to set each color level separately). Does the SpyderTV allow you to customize the software to use the PerfectColor adjustments instead of the general "Color/Tint" adjustment bar? I would think that would be more accurate. Thanks.

Check lewdawg's post earlier in the thread. While the STV does not do any kind of RGB changes, you can do that manually following the method he posted.

Later,
Bill

You should be OK within the accuracy of the sensors - if you go buy the EBU rather than SMPTE standards - they actually allow some tolerance in these points (to accomodate international differences). SMPTE does not specify a tolerance - but generally +/-0.04xy for greyscale is considered acceptable unless the monitors are part of a video wall. I think the EyeOne Beamer is 10x more accurate - but my Spyder2 read the Infocus oversaturated yellow and red just fine. The secondaries are lighter than primaries and will give you less trouble. Compared to marketing efforts to make different pictures than standards are obscene - technical differences in sensors really do not matter for fixing obscenities! You would have to use the xy support data - as the Spyder TV assumes you are only using color/tint controls.

As far as setting anything beyond the color of color - I would not trust any sensor - try this test - if the Y value of Red, Green, Blue do not add up to the Y value of White when it is calibrated. So you still need your Red/Green/Blue push patterns.

I had been considering a SpyderTV for some time, but have also been wanting to calibrate & profile the four computer monitors in the house, so I decided to go with the Spyder2PRO Studio, and ordered directly from Colorvision europe, hoping that I got the latest version. (It came with v2.08 software, and the sensor comes up as sw 4CL/hw 3CL) My order was held back a week or so as they were completely sold out and had to get more in, so I would hope that it's the latest.

Anyway; I'm very impressed with the product, and feel that it was money well spent. It cost me around £250 (can be had cheaper, but I wanted to get the latest version) and seeing as ISF calibration is £200 which is a one-off thing and would only be done on my main display, I feel that I have already had my money's worth.

I was surprised to see that, while the ancient CRT monitor we have is quite dim, I was able to calibrated it perfectly to D65 as it has r/g/b controls. The newer CRT monitor only had "temperature" presets, and 6500k was a bit off, but the profile the software created did a great job fixing things. I was surprised to see that my 17" Powerbook's LCD was quite close to being correct out of the box; it was mainly in the darker areas where it wasn't correct. I chose "native" white point for it though, as things just didn't look right otherwise. Even though it was fairly correct out of the box, the profile has noticeably improved things, and it's nice having Gamma 2.2 now, instead of the default 1.8, so things now look the same on my monitor as the majority of computer user's. I was also able to work out my display's contrast ratio, which was quite interesting - with the backlight up full, I got around 250:1, and with it down as low as possible, 760:1. I was shocked to see that the maximum brightness output is only around 93cd/m2 however.

So it's great for calibrating monitors; but how is it for television use? Absolutely fantastic, in my opinion. I'm still waiting to get my LCD back, as it's away getting repaired, but tried it out on my old CRT which is now in the lounge.

The great thing is that if you tell it the display has r/g/b controls it will take you to a screen that lets you take constant measurements, giving you xy data, difference from your selected white point (D65 in my case) and luminance. What I did was hook up my computer to the television and let it run its initial sensor calibration, then put in DVE and loaded up the different greyscale patterns. (20%-100%) It only goes up in 20% steps, so I may consider purchasing Avia later, as I hear that it has more greyscale patterns.

Here is what the most important bit of this looks like:
http://img312.imageshack.us/img312/9414/picture22ns.th.png (http://img312.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture22ns.png)

Unfortunately going into the service menu puts my television in "torch" mode with contrast being raised to around 75% whereas I need it down to around 45% to avoid blooming and blinding whites, so what I did was put on a 100% white screen before going into the menu and measured the luminance, which was around 110cd/m2, and then lowered the CRT gains equally until the output in the service menu was the same. I realise this is lowering the overall output of the television, but that's not an issue.

I then started working on getting it to D65, then 20%, and going back and forth, then through the whole scale, correcting the red/blue cuts/gains ("high/low" on this set) as I went. I should probably plot the results, but it is very nearly D65 throughout the whole scale now; a massive improvement over what it was before.

I raised the "sub-brightness" (basically the default brightness level, from my understanding) until all shadow detail was visible, which brought up pure black to "0.02cd/m2" and with a maximum output of around 110cd/m2, this comes to around 5500:1 contrast.

Colour reproduction is significantly better, and as I've not had to make a compromise with my settings, saturation is improved, but everything looks more natural - things that should be bright & colourful are, but skintones look as they should. I think this is because previously, as the temperature was much higher, everything had a blue push, so I had to reduce saturation to compensate. (either that or have blue colours "screaming" out, and reds or greens looking as they should)

The only downside? Low-budget shows or adverts that haven't been filmed with a calibrated camera etc look worse than they did before. When everything was "off" you didn't really notice it as much. However, films or shows that have been filmed using calibrated cameras etc look stunning.

If only CRTs didn't have geometry issues or refesh at 50/60Hz, or I'd be considering sticking with one; the picture is so much nicer now.

They added RGB gain/offset x,y calibration? What is the point of ColorFacts or Spyder2 PRO? I thought they were just reporting basic adjustments - letting you know which greyscale was on target - with the secret support switch to get at the greyscale numbers?

They added RGB gain/offset x,y calibration? What is the point of ColorFacts or Spyder2 PRO? I thought they were just reporting basic adjustments - letting you know which greyscale was on target - with the secret support switch to get at the greyscale numbers?
Sorry, I know a lot of people in this topic were trying to decide between SpyderTV and Spyder2PRO Studio; these are my impressions of my Spyder2PRO Studio, not SpyderTV.

OOps - silly me I thought it was a SpyderTV review this being it's review thread!

They added RGB gain/offset x,y calibration? What is the point of ColorFacts or Spyder2 PRO? I thought they were just reporting basic adjustments - letting you know which greyscale was on target - with the secret support switch to get at the greyscale numbers?
I think this was part of the profile, if I read the post correctly.

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't being very clear, or should have made a new topic for this. :o

It's just that I have seen many posts where people have been asking whether they should purchase the "Pro studio" or the "TV" and the general consensus seemed to be that both will only give you raw xyY data, so you should go for the cheaper SpyderTV if you're only going to greyscale a television and have no need for monitor profiles. It was my understanding before purchasing the Pro studio that you needed something like colorfacts for a visual read-out like this.

I bought the Spyder2PRO Studio anyway, as I did want to profile my monitors, and found that it has this visual representation of the data so I don't need to put xyY data into an excel spreadsheet to find out whether I should be adding/removing red/blue, which I was expecting to have to do.

The image was taken before any colour profile was created for the television. If you have the spyder in this mode it puts up a 100% white window and takes readings of that, showing you what you need to change to get it to D65. Rather than using this, I loaded up Digital Video Essentials and used their IRE patterns, taking readings and adjusting the r/g/b cuts & gains via the service menu until it read as close to D65 for each.

As I've got it as good as it will get with the service menu controls, when I did go to create a colour profile, there was virtually no difference.

I hope that makes more sense, and I am sorry for any confusion caused.

Andrew - Got it! What you essentially did was to use the PreCal function as an alternate method of doing a two-point grayscale. Very Cool! :)

ColorFacts has many more instruments than just the RGB% - I never even use that instrument anymore. I just use the Jedi Master forces.....

I see what you did - you fooled it into reading DVE rather than the computer test patterns.

Andrewfee,

What is your sensor's hw/sw versions and your Spyder2 Pro 2.0 sw version?

Alvin

Here is my post on the problems with using the Spyder2PRO RGB tool for other than as a precal

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6475130&&#post6475130

krasmuzil wrote:
> silly me I thought it was a SpyderTV review this being it's review thread! <

Why the sarcasm? Do we really need that here? It's very reasonable to evaluate it in the context of other options, and Andrew made it pretty clear in the very first sentence of his post...

> I decided to go with the Spyder2PRO Studio <

which I found both interesting and useful. Let's not discourage contributors. I don't think any apology was called for.

- Tim

krasmuzil wrote:
> silly me I thought it was a SpyderTV review this being it's review thread! <

Why the sarcasm? Do we really need that here? It's very reasonable to evaluate it in the context of other options, and Andrew made it pretty clear in the very first sentence of his post...

> I decided to go with the Spyder2PRO Studio <

which I found both interesting and useful. Let's not discourage contributors. I don't think any apology was called for.

- Tim

Since you cannot read the expression on my face when I post - I was trying to make it clear that I assumed something about the review (that is was about SpyderTV) rather than reading every line of the review (that it was SpyderPro). That was my mistake not the posters - when my subscribed thread sends me an email saying update to the SpyderTV review thread - I naturally assumed something wrong.

My apologies for not reading every word posted. I doubt I have even read all the thousands and thousands of words I have posted myself over the years.

> My apologies for not reading every word posted. I doubt I have even read all the thousands and thousands of words I have posted myself over the years. <

Yes, well we'll let it pass this time, but stay on your toes. :D And you're absolutely right about expression... it is hard to tell intent in some situations.

- Tim

I managed to get some time to try out the Spyder2 from the SpyderTV package using the Colorfacts software. I have the USB Dongle that allows me to use any recognised hardware so I could take a reading from the screen using both the S2 and TR-1. It took about 30 seconds to get the other sensor connected etc in software, but the differences between them were obvious.

The TR-1 is pretty new, and I used it to calibrate my Optoma H78. It's not needed much tweaking but when I checked it it was still pretty much at D65. Using the S2 to run a greyscale and the readings showed blue and green tracking each other OK, but green was noticably higher. I would say that CF showed green about 15% higher than red and blue which the TR-1 had it at.

If I use the SpyderTV /support tool the readings are much closer (within 2 to 3% IIRC), so is it the software or hardware which is wrong?

TR-1 100IRE:
x 0.3159
y 0.3321
Y 19.52

TR-1 30IRE:
x 0.3151
y 0.3288
y 1.654

S2 1000IRE:
x 0.3174
y 0.3347
Y 21.24

S2 30IRE:
x 0.3170
y 0.3328
Y 1.802

Any comments?

EDIT: The S2 had to have the LCD filter grate removed to get the readings close with Colorfacts. Otherwise it was way out.


Gary.

Not sure about the SpyderTV /support but with the Spyder2PRO Colorimeter it knows how to bias the readings for with and without the LCD/DLP filter. If I start the Colorimeter in CRT mode it's way off unless I remove the filter, if I start it in LCD/DLP mode it's way off unless I install the filter.

So I would say that it's the software not knowing how to bias the readings from the S2. Can colorfacts train the S2?

You can read the screen with it? I thought both of those were designed for the direct measure - not the screen measure. Software should really only print 2 sig digits - as the sensor and standard only care about rounding the third digit. Sometimes we can confuse precision for accuracy. Neither sensor is accurate to four places.

With the grate removed Colorfacts could use the Spyder2, but it gives somewhat different readings to the TR-1. There is a facility to train devices from another, so it could easily be made to emulate the TR-1 or vice versa.

I've only used them both reading direct from the pj, but they appear to be sensative enough to read from the screen provided there is enough reflectance (more sensative than the original CF100 probe anyway).

Gary.

I thought the Spyder2 sensor *was* shipping with Colorfacts now. If so, are you saying the sensor packaged with Colorfacts is different than the sensor packaged with SpyderTV?

Also, what version of Colorfacts are we talking about here, 5.50 or 6.0?

I've been thinking of picking up Colorfacts, but wanted to go the "software only" route because I already have the SpyderTV package. But, if the sensors are different, that may be something to consider.

Thanks,
Mark

I have the latest version of CF and with the dongle it supports all the hardware in the drop down menu. I tried the SpyderTV with it and it worked, but gave readings that were different to the Trichromat-1 which at the time was their only filter based sensor (I got mine in April this year). So one of them is innacurate, or they're both innacurate to a similar degree but in opposing directions perhaps, since the greyscale of the TR-1 looked good with no obvious color shifts and hasn't changed since then.

Gary

Gary

Is the comparison data you show with the Colorfacts software only or with Colorfacts vs. SpyderTV support SW?

Alvin

EDIT: The S2 had to have the LCD filter grate removed to get the readings close with Colorfacts. Otherwise it was way out.



Wait, let me get this straight: you had to change something on the Spyder sensor for it to give you comparable readings (wrt the TR-1) on your DLP? Does that mean I can't just use it out of the box for calibration as I have (I'm not using CF though)? If no, what do I need to remove?

Thanks for your informative posts Gary.

Yours truly,

The Info Leech.

alwilli,

Both sensors were connected to my laptop and I had Colorfacts running. I told CF to connect to the TR-1 and took a reading from a 100IRE projected screen image. I then told CF to disconnect from the TR-1 and to connect to the Spyder2, and I took another reading. I then did the same for a 30IRE field, and the above readings were the results.

I then took readings for a complete greyscale using the TR-1 and then using the Spyder2. With the TR-1 I was getting a good flat greyscale at D65 which is how I'd set the pj up some time ago. I then connected to the Spyder2 and took another set of readings, and these showed green running a few percent above D65, and red and blue running together a few percent below D65.

Liersi,

Edited to be more correct:

To use the Spyder2 with Colorfacts, I had to remove the LCD grate or the readings in x were way out. y looked about right IIRC. You don't have to do this with the SpyderTV software and the xyY support option which reads OK with the grate on, as does the Spyder2Pro software which also worked OK with the grate on. So it's only CF that needs the grate taken off. I wonder if the Spyder2 comes without the grate when supplied with CF and I wonder if it's calibrated to be more accurate in that package?

HTH

Gary.

Gary,

Did you take a dark reading before switching between sensors?

Mark

Yes, but only for the TR-1 which asks you to do it before it's first reading (after connecting to it). The Spyder2 doesn't need one as far as I know.

Gary.

Gary

That is what I think is that it is tweaked for ColorFacts - as my prototype they said no LCD attachment - but then another review said they did say to use it. Mark from DataColor did say they are all the same hardware now - but are the drivers different when you install them? If the other software has a switch saying how you used the sensor - maybe this is in the ColorFacts driver? Is it possible they are different but the same name?

And I would not be too concerned - as you are within calibration tolerance specs. Had you calibrated with the Spyder2 first and got flat - then used the Trichomat for a few off - you would be thinking the Trichomat was wrong! Go buy a PR650!

Hi Kevin,

I'm not sure about the drivers - I did install the S2 with the STV software, so I assume they're correct, but maybe CF interprets them differently? I'd like to hear from Mark and see what his explanation is, especially as they're both meant to be accurate to xy 0.003 (S2) and 0.004 (TR-1).

I agree that if I'd used the S2 first I'd think the TR-1 was wrong, but I haven't calibrated a greyscale with it so I'd be interested to see how it looks to my eye compared to the TR-1 greyscale.

I'm wondering if I should get a spectroradiometer like the GretagMcBeth Eye One as that's meant to more accurate though less sensative at low light levels. How does the PR650 compare and how much are they?

Gary.

My Spyder2 prototype was ranked by Milori as accurate at 0.001xy - I think they must account for drift allowance in the spec. I think the PR650 is in the "go write reviews for a monied magazine" category......

Why not do the project measure shootout rather than screen measure shootout? That is what both of them are designed for.

I thought the Spyder2 sensor *was* shipping with Colorfacts now. If so, are you saying the sensor packaged with Colorfacts is different than the sensor packaged with SpyderTV?

It is. I got my CF 6.0 set this past week, and the sensor that was bundled with it clearly indicated "Spyder 2". It looks like my Christmas break may be spent with a STC vs. PRO vs. CF shoot-out.

Mark Hunter - If you catch this latest twist to the discussion, do you have any thoughts?

Later,
Bill

Kevin,

I've only ever used them to calibrate the projector and not the screen (I point the sensor directly at the pj), and those are the results I'm getting.

I might get the chance to have another go with them this afternoon so will report back afterwards.

Gary

Hi guys,

I did a greyscale using the TR-1 and this time used a PAL disk. As the image shows it was pretty flat. I then did a run using the S2 (same PAL disk), and you can see the difference.

I then recalibrated to D65 using the S2 and the greyscale became slightly pink. An obvious result given that the S2 sees the TR-1s greyscale as red deficient.

Gary

Or you TR-1 is slightly blue. Post some screen shots of greybars if you can manage a white balance comparison.

One guy posted some screenies of his screen material - insisting that his grey material was blue. I said are you sure - stare at the blue grey - now stare at the white. It turns yellow! "Why did you do that to me" he says!

A better way to tell is if your secondaries are tracking the grey scale - do they appear off visually? Someone did a study and found that yellow is not relative like white is - everyone identified the same reference yellow - no matter their degree of color blindness or white balance.

I did wonder that too, but the TR1 is still giving similar results to those it did when brand new, and it was never as noticably pink as the Spyder is. That's not to say the TR1 was innacurate from the start, but I would have thought it would have been accurate from new. I could also see the 80ire bar going pink as I increase the red. Should D65 look grey or pink?

How do I check the yellow? Do I just bring up the yellow field and see if it looks yellow? What would I see if it wasn't? An off yellow maybe?

I'll try to get some greyscale images when I get the chance and see how they look when posted.

Gary.

If you are not at D65 and pushed cyan - yellow acquires a green tint. If you are pushed D65 red yellow turns orange. I can literally see just one click off on hue - so this is assuming you got hue as close as possible - leaving only difference the white balance.

You do need to get color bars at the same % stimulus as your white pattern you are looking at. It also depends on the projectors decoder. Yellow is supposed to be White-Blue - but some projectors do it as Red+Green - there is a difference!

It is probably best of the secondary colors to do this with - cyan is too close to white, and magenta is too dark.

Cheers Kev,

I'll have another look and see what things look like.

Gary.

The Tech support at ColorVison said that if you are getting crushed black and white levels that one should take the baffle off the Spyder. This is specifically for CRT's.
Supposedly the baffle filters ambient light.
Are there any other times when this should be taken off?

The Tech support at ColorVison said that if you are getting crushed black and white levels that one should take the baffle off the Spyder. This is specifically for CRT's.
Supposedly the baffle filters ambient light.
Are there any other times when this should be taken off?

Now, that's a good piece of information! Wonder why they didn't include that step in the SpyderTV Software. Or is this for Spyder2PRO?

Now, that's a good piece of information! Wonder why they didn't include that step in the SpyderTV Software. Or is this for Spyder2PRO?

I believe Mark Hunter mentioned (earlier in this thread) that there was little difference between using the baffle and not - at least for most displays, and given the fact that the SpyderTV is not a substitute for a proper calibration.

That being said, I have noticed that the SpyderTV drives my contrast pretty hard on my CRT based direct view. I wonder if removing the baffle would help? I haven't noticed the SpyderTV crushing my blacks. If anything, it sets my brightness just a little too high.

Mark

They said this was for the SpyderTV. LCD's and other technologies should keep the baffle on.
I was going to purchase the Spyder2Pro upgrade and decided the Monaco XR Pro was a better deal for small difference in price.

I believe Mark Hunter mentioned (earlier in this thread) that there was little difference between using the baffle and not - at least for most displays, and given the fact that the SpyderTV is not a substitute for a proper calibration.

For my 34HS420 I must leave the baffle on the STV otherwise my results are very wrong. At the end of the day, actually after many days, IMO the STV is not that much better then using the SM and the Avia disk. If one wants higher precision than that take the $250 and hire an ISF claibrator, it is money better spent.

STV Version 1.0.14 is out http://support.colorvision.ch/?_a=downloads
Fixes: decimal indicator is corrected (November 2005)
Any Information what that mean?

Another change is at the Support- Window. Now there is additional the Color- Temperature displayed.

rgds Damdy

btw: There also is a 116MB big S2Pro Update Version 2.1! The 2.0 Version is round about 20MB! ? But I cant´t install this. Has anybody a Idea what happens with that?

That being said, I have noticed that the SpyderTV drives my contrast pretty hard on my CRT based direct view. I wonder if removing the baffle would help? I haven't noticed the SpyderTV crushing my blacks. If anything, it sets my brightness just a little too high.k

It tries to maximize contrast, so this seems to be a design feature. Others complained that it was too bright on their TVs, so you will definitely want to turn it down a bit (seems like an update may be needed for a more comprehensive fix, though I'm not sure what form that would take...).

Later,
Bill

Without reading the entire thread which is 14 pages long now, can somebody tell me whether or not the Spyder2 or Spyder2PRO Studio 2.0 will permit calibration to D65 with good grey scale tracking? Would Spyder2PRO Studio 2.0 do a better job with this than Spyder2? I am looking for an easy to use system which is not going to cost thousands of dollars.

Thanks,
Scott

Without reading the entire thread which is 14 pages long now, can somebody tell me whether or not the Spyder2 or Spyder2PRO Studio 2.0 will permit calibration to D65 with good grey scale tracking? Would Spyder2PRO Studio 2.0 do a better job with this than Spyder2? I am looking for an easy to use system which is not going to cost thousands of dollars.

Thanks,
Scott

I hate to say it, but this has been discussed half a dozen times in this thread already. Try reading back a few pages.

Mark

Come on now, you don't really expect me to read this huge thread now do you? :) Actually I have read through most of the thread, but never came across a clear answer to the questions I posed.

I've read thru the whole 14 pages twice, and am still lost about what product does what. It doesn't help that the company's website isn't clear enough for this beginner to figure it out, either.

Spyder2 was not designed for television calibrations. The software is for monitors attached to PCs. The SpyderTV software is designed to work with television settings.

Come on now, you don't really expect me to read this huge thread now do you? :) Actually I have read through most of the thread, but never came across a clear answer to the questions I posed.
Scott - There is a question of accuracy for the STV/S2. I think it's within acceptable ranges for consumers based on what I was able to achieve with my H77, but several professionals disagree. For grayscale, either product will work, provided you have an appropriate model. Which product to choose depends upon your needs and environment, and if the answer is still unclear from what I put in the first few posts, then please ask a clarifying question.

Erebus - ditto. Where are you lost?

Later,
Bill

can someone point me in the direction of this "huge" spyder2pro 2.1 update. on colorvision's website, it only shows 2.0 update being around 17mb. an earlier post mentioned a 116mb update. can't seem to find it anywhere though.

thanks guys.
Carmine

here you go, it has an update for the S2 and TV

http://support.colorvision.ch/?_a=downloads

I'm very interested in The spyderTV/Spyder2, but I'm unsure which one to get. I will be using it for calibration of DLP and LCD projectors..

Thanks,

Anbjornk

Everyone seems to talk about the SpyderTV and the Spyder2Pro Studio. What about just the basic Spyder2 package? How much can you do with that setup? It's a good bit cheaper than the other two packages and it seems like getting the appropriate RGB data is all you need to calibrate gray scale (at least as a start)....

I believe the basic Spyder2 package doesn't contain any software that can give the xyY data that is needed for calibration to D65. Unless anyone knows differently?

Gary

Gary,

I think you are correct.

Mikea28, you'll need more than xyY data to get a decent calibration. You'll need some way to model the data - at least it will take some of the guess work out of the calibration process.

Mark

There are various spreadsheets available for free that will model the xyY data for you - try the search and see what comes up.

Gary

Hi
I am thinking of getting Spyder2PRO to calibrate my Lcd front projector but the question I have is I use a Htpc as my dvd player with TheaterTek being my software. Will I be able to use my Htpc for the software and also use it to play the avia/dve disc or do I need another pc to run the software on with My Htpc playing the disc.

Thanks

In so long as you have sufficient horsepower, you should be able to run Excel and TT at the same time.

I've read through this thread, but just have one basic question. Which CURRENT version of this product would I purchase to calibrate an Optoma H79 FP? I have a laptop that I could use for this. I do not have any HTPC connected. I also have a Samsung 720P RPTV (DLP) TV that I would like to use this for (but primarily for our FP setup). Thanks! SJ

The STV will be better if you want to calibrate the RPTV as well.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi everyone, new member. Just got the Spider STV100 and calibrated the big guy. I'll tell you it looks good. Just doesn't give you the advance settings:

Magenta
Red
Yellow
Green
Cyan
Blue

Any one try the advance settings for this TV or know how to do it?

The STV will be better if you want to calibrate the RPTV as well.

Assume by STV you mean the Datacolor SpiderTV product? This does not seem to cover FP systems (looked at their website).

looked at their website
Try reading the thread as well. :(

Chris - I can take you through setting the cuts and drives (see my guide in the Calibration How-To thread that is currently stickied). However, setting the individual controls for primaries and secondaries is not something that is standard. These settings could be adjustments to the color decoder or something completely different...

Later,
Bill

Try reading the thread as well. :(

Later,
Bill

Thanks for the great feedback. Can you answer my question as I don't understand whether wizards where added, etc. vs. the way that was described earlier on in the thread. I apologize if I missed seeing something as I am new to this topic and yes I did read through the thread. Is this something that is now completely supported? Maybe somebody else can answer my question. Thank you.

Let me try this again, then. There are no wizards in either product that really help with doing a detailed calibration. For that, you need the xyY data that both products spit out, and a spreadsheet model or equivalent. The PRO will allow you to create a profile that works with your FP, but I do not, in general, recommend profiles as anything other than a last resort.

No, the STV does not have support for FP using its wizards. FP is formally supported with the PRO, but not to the level users are probably hoping (adjustments are done at the graphics card level after a "PreCAL" routine - not as changes in the service menu, for instance). Could all of this change? Sure, but I'd expect to see that in a major release announcement, rather than in a point release.

Try reading the thread as well. :(

Chris - I can take you through setting the cuts and drives (see my guide in the Calibration How-To thread that is currently stickied). However, setting the individual controls for primaries and secondaries is not something that is standard. These settings could be adjustments to the color decoder or something completely different...

Later,
BillI'll check that Calibration How-To thread. Thanks Bill

Let me try this again, then. There are no wizards in either product that really help with doing a detailed calibration. For that, you need the xyY data that both products spit out, and a spreadsheet model or equivalent. The PRO will allow you to create a profile that works with your FP, but I do not, in general, recommend profiles as anything other than a last resort.

No, the STV does not have support for FP using its wizards. FP is formally supported with the PRO, but not to the level users are probably hoping (adjustments are done at the graphics card level after a "PreCAL" routine - not as changes in the service menu, for instance). Could all of this change? Sure, but I'd expect to see that in a major release announcement, rather than in a point release.

Thank you. Also, I received the following info from the company:

Spyder2PRO will calibrate your front projection system and SpyderTV will
calibrate your rear projection/DLP television. If you bought SpyderTV,
you can upgrade to the Spyder2PRO software for $179.

Can SpyderTV calibrate a Plasma screen? Can Spyder2PRO calibrate a plasma screen connected to a HTPC?

I can think of two possible problems i) are the filters on the Spyder compatible with the plasma phosphors ii) are the sensor and software compatible with the pixel response time and lag time.

Can SpyderTV calibrate a Plasma screen?.

Yes it can.

As per http://www.datacolor.com/products_profis_datacolor_spydertv.shtml

" SpyderTV supports Plasma, RPTV, DLP, LCD and CRT TVs. "

so has anyone been able to clarify what indeed the newest SPYDER2PRO is? mine says SW 4CL / HW 3CL. do i have the latest or should i return mine for a newer one?

thanks guys.
Carmine

"or should i return mine for a newer one?"

how do you propose to do that?? :confused:

:cool:

that really shouldn't be the issue here Jim, all i was asking was if i had a new one or not.

well, if you had an official upgrade path, I was interested... I jumped the gun and bought the spyder2 when it first came out and within 2 weeks they obsoleted it.... :mad:

:cool:

so has anyone been able to clarify what indeed the newest SPYDER2PRO is? mine says SW 4CL / HW 3CL. do i have the latest or should i return mine for a newer one?

thanks guys.
Carmine
The version number on the box that the hardware came with is the only way to really tell.

Later,
Bill

hey Bill, i can't find any number on the box except the product number which is the same as all spyder2pro's.

Carmine.

My SpyderTV version listings (see attached jpg).
O.K., so I've read this entire forum but still don't have a clear answer to these questions:
1. What is the real purpose of the filter (blue honeycomb filter with black plastic housing that covers the 3 smaller suction cups) and What types of displays (if any) is this used on ??
2. Is the STV colorimeter the same as spyder2pro (sure looks like it) ??

I tried taking some readings on an LCD display with filter removed and got very strange (color temp @ 2700k, I know I'm not that warm ???) results (have not tried on CRT yet). With the filter back in place I got 6400k-6800k from 20 to 100 IRE !!
Note: I updated to the international STV software that lets you see color temp in the support window.

Bill (Ursa), any results for accuracy of your STV Vs other colorimeters ???

Todd

Todd, keep the filter on the unit unless you are adjusting a Direct View CRT display. The STV unit is the same unit used on the Spyder2PRO.

"Improvements to the calibration software utilize sophisticated gray balance and tonal response algorithms to produce superior color images, including exceptionally smooth gradient steps, life-like flesh tones and neutral grays."

This quote from the description of the SPyder2PRO Sudio pack at ColorVision's website implies to me that that the included software includes grayscale calibration. Yet I understand from (many) other posts that one must use a separate program, such as spreadsheet models produced by others in this forum, to be able to perform a stepped grayscale calibration.

So what grayscale calibration function(s) does the Pyder2PRO Studio's software include, as it clearly has some?

Todd - See the lead posts for a comparison of my STV vs. my EyeOne. Beyond this, you bring the toys, and I'll supply the beer.

Arwe - It does grayscale calibration as a profile, i.e., inside the video card. You really want to get the display's calibration as close as possible with its native controls before tweaking the graphics card.

Later,
Bill

Todd - See the lead posts for a comparison of my STV vs. my EyeOne. Beyond this, you bring the toys, and I'll supply the beer.


I thought these comparisons were done with an older version of the hardware.
I guess you meant it when you said that this is what you will be doing during X-mas break ?


Lee, thanks for the reply but I still don't understand what the purpose of the filter is ??

Todd

Bill, thank for your reply. I'm not sure I understand it, however. The software uses the information supplied by the sensor to adjust the graphics cards' setting for RBG to produce a -hopefully- flat grayscale?

And by getting the display's calibration "as close as possible" you are referring to brightness, contrast, etc?

Thanks.

I thought these comparisons were done with an older version of the hardware.
I guess you meant it when you said that this is what you will be doing during X-mas break ?

I've been assured by the product manager for the STV that the sw and hw coding is not meaningful to us end-users in terms of what I would normally think of as versioning. That comparison should still hold, barring drift, for my equipment. Differences in individual instruments probably have a greater impact on any such test than any running "upgrades" that have been made to subsequent sensors. To put a finer point on it, the tests I did covered both the beta hardware and the shipping hardware for the STV. I have the PRO version as software only.

Bill, thank for your reply. I'm not sure I understand it, however. The software uses the information supplied by the sensor to adjust the graphics cards' setting for RBG to produce a -hopefully- flat grayscale?

And by getting the display's calibration "as close as possible" you are referring to brightness, contrast, etc?
You've got it. See my calibration how-to in the corresponding thread.

Later,
Bill

1. What is the real purpose of the filter (blue honeycomb filter with black plastic housing that covers the 3 smaller suction cups) and What types of displays (if any) is this used on ??

The honey comb filter is a light pipe. It is primarily used for displays that have varied off-angle shifts in color such as LCDs.

Thanks,
Mark

FYI, an STV Pro has been announced. It will be shown at CES and will include grayscale functionality from the pictures that Colorvision has released of the GUI.

FYI, an STV Pro has been announced. It will be shown at CES and will include grayscale functionality from the pictures that Colorvision has released of the GUI.

Do you have a link?

Man, I just bought a SpyderTV. They're going to start pissing me off if they keep upgrading their product line every few months.

Mark

Do you have a link?

Man, I just bought a SpyderTV. They're going to start pissing me off if they keep upgrading their product line every few months.
Mark - I can't find the press release running wild. The only place I could find it is in Grubert's thread here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=616974

As for pissing you off, I'd think of this as being very market responsive! :)

Later,
Bill

Market responsive - yes. This is a great idea for enthusiast such as myself. I do hope they have a simple software upgrade path though.

Mark

So then what the heck is ColorFacts PRO supposed to be? I suppose ability to use other sensors and generators, and having a customer calibration database? So this means DataColor has consumer, prosumer, and professional, and lab grade markets. If I bought ColorFacts PRO for Spyder2 use only recently I would not be too happy!

Kevin - Until it shows up on Colorvision's website, I wouldn't get too worked up over this. However, I, personally, am absolutely an advocate of a need for affordable prosumer tools (I think I have too much of a "paper trail" to declare otherwise). I'm pretty excited if this does get released, since it means I could ditch the spreadsheets with my STV/PRO (CFacts is really more than I need).

Anyway, perhaps this discussion should migrate to Grubert's thread?

Later,
Bill

If there is an affordable software upgrade to a prosumer version of STV, I'll buy it.

Mark

I own the Spyder2 Pro. It looks like all I'd need to have STV as well is the STV DVD. I looked around DataColor's website but did not see that upgrade path available. Does anyone know if I can buy the STV DVD separately.

Thanks.

If there is an affordable software upgrade to a prosumer version of STV, I'll buy it.
You and me both! :)

I own the Spyder2 Pro. It looks like all I'd need to have STV as well is the STV DVD. I looked around DataColor's website but did not see that upgrade path available. Does anyone know if I can buy the STV DVD separately.

Thanks.
The DVD is separate from the software itself, and the STV software is a bit different than the S2PRO. No s/w upgrade path has been announced from what I know.

Later,
Bill

Todd, keep the filter on the unit unless you are adjusting a Direct View CRT display. .


Well, I just finished testing the STV unit with and without the filter on a direct view CRT and it most certainly does NOT work with the STV software !!!
Readings are off the map (x=.450,y=.650 & color temp at -1.000k) huh ???
With the filter back on I'm @ 6700k average temp.

I,m finding it hard to trust anything that colorvision does...

Hi guys. I've been reading the thread and as a result got the Spyder TV for my new Samsung HL-R5688W. I've gone as far as I can with the user settings and got pretty good results, but it's still not quite right so I want to go further.

I've set up the shortcut for Spyder to get the x,y,Y readings. What I cannot seem to find in this thread is what do I display on the tv to take these readings? I've tried the #3 white screen and got x=0.300, y=0.313, and Y=198.7 (the #2 white screen was almost identical.)

1-Am I on the right track, (or even close)?

2-Do I plot these on a graph to get the triangle I've seen used here?

3-The tv does have a tint adjustment, but it's grayed out for dvd. It does however have a "My Color Control" (separate from the "Color" adjustment and is global) where I can individually adjust red, green, blue, yellow, and pink. I'm not quite sure how to incorporate this with SpyderTV except to maybe adjust the x,y,Y readings so any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Postalguy - Get a copy of AVIA and the test patterns there, or get Scott Horton's (GetGray's) disc from the "new calibration disc thread". Then, get Rader's spreadsheet. Finally, download and read my guide on calibration. Then, we can talk! ;)

Todd - The STV software is designed to use the filter all the time. No need to take it off. The S2PRO software will tell you when to take off the filter for CRT displays.

Later,
Bill

Bill, I had a question along the same lines as postalguy; I've done my first run at a calibration and basically flipped between Avia's 20 & 80 IRE patterns, adjusting the cuts & drives in my Toshiba's service menu as close to x=.313 & y=.329 as I could (i.e. I'd adjust first with the 20IRE, flip to the 80 and get it locked in, back to 20, etc). Once I got to the point where both the 20IRE & 80IRE were close to the target coordinates with the same Cuts & Drives settings I called it a day (I never adjusted the Green cut, just the red & blue). I've read your calibration .pdf and must admit to not understanding most of the Gamma discussion, but am I on the right track above? Thanks for any insight.

Jim

Jim - You are on the right track. What you are describing is a "simple" calibration. Well, actually, let's call it an intermediate "consumer" calibration. The gamma issue has to do with making sure the "Y" (luminance) value is correct in proportion to the signal received.

The bottom line: if you like the image your display gives you, then be happy and don't read any more about calibration or test patterns!! :)

Later,
Bill

(story of my life) Wouldn't you know I already bought DVE over AVIA based on someone elses recommendation:(

I did the other two (Rader's spreadsheet and read your guide on calibration) last week. I looked again today at Rader's and just saw the "How to use" at the bottom that I didn't see earlier, which is the piece of the puzzle I was missing.

So, when I get AVIA or GetGray, all will be revealed?:)

Btw, I sympathize about having to explain everything to the "new guy" as we feel the same way on a BMW message board I've been with for about 4 years. We see the same questions asked over and over again and again, and I know it's somewhat irritating, so I'll try not to be too much of a pest:)

Thanks again.

Followup: I see that I need a DVD burner to use GetGray, so I guess I'm stuck with AVIA.

So, when I get AVIA or GetGray, all will be revealed?:)
Nope. That's just getting you into the car and teaching you how not to crash into things. After this, we need to teach you about understeer and oversteer and how to modulate the throttle through turns. Then speed shifting. Then, we need to teach you about aerodynamics, drag and downforce. Finally, we need to teach you about race management and the proper care and feeding of tires! :)

Oh, wait, this is calibration, not teaching you how to "drive". ;)

Followup: I see that I need a DVD burner to use GetGray, so I guess I'm stuck with AVIA.
A burner can be had for $30 or so, and you will really want Scott's disc eventually...

:D

Later,
Bill

I'm going to have to check out this GeyGray disc. Up to this point, I have only used Avia, DVE, and the STV Disc.

Thanks,
Mark

Mark - If for no other reason, the major benefit of Scott's disc is that it does away with the IRE nonsense. With it, you actually know what %stim to use in a spreadsheet model to calculate gamma. No more guessing whether your system has set-up or not!

Later,
Bill

Bill, thanks for the response to my earlier inquiry; I guess the image looks good, but something still seems to be "off." I'm thinking it may be the gamma, I ran though Rader's spreadsheet & ended up with all three Gamma's at 2.55 - 2.60. How significant is this, and how do I "pull" all 3 closer to the ideal curve while still maintaining the grayscale (it's 6500 +/- 250 from 30-80 IRE, though it's off the charts at 10-20; I think at 10IRE it calculated ~30,000!! I'm chalking that up to some sort of inaccuracy at the lower light levels, hopefully). Again, any help is appreciated.

Jim

Jim, it probably is some inaccuracy at lower light levels. Personally, I eyeball it at the lower %stims (below 30 IRE), using RGB bias or brightness controls to remove apparent color imbalances there and then go back to check that the higher stims/IREs haven't been thrown off by the adjustments.

Dan

Bill, thanks for the response to my earlier inquiry; I guess the image looks good, but something still seems to be "off." I'm thinking it may be the gamma, I ran though Rader's spreadsheet & ended up with all three Gamma's at 2.55 - 2.60. How significant is this, and how do I "pull" all 3 closer to the ideal curve while still maintaining the grayscale (it's 6500 +/- 250 from 30-80 IRE, though it's off the charts at 10-20; I think at 10IRE it calculated ~30,000!! I'm chalking that up to some sort of inaccuracy at the lower light levels, hopefully). Again, any help is appreciated.

Jim

Jim - if it's off still, then I would have to ask what test patterns you used? AVIA and DVE are both mastered in SD, but Rader's spreadsheet is HD. If your DVD player is not properly doing the colorspace conversion when upscaling, then this is one source of error. How significant it is will vary since a lot of material is mastered on HD-calibrated sets in the studios though with SD resolution (per Stacey Spears, IIRC).

This is where you can start to positively tear your hair out. For me, I use bitmaps with the built-in picture viewer in XP to calibrate to HD. Others probably have their own techniques here. Oh, yeah, that's probably worthy of its own thread, too! :)

Later,
Bill

Bill, I'm using the Avia Window patterns, as suggested by Rader on the "how to use" tab of his spreadsheet. I selected the Avia correction factor from the drop-down box and used the Avia tab to input the results. It could be just an adjustment period while I get used to the new color palette (initial readings prior to any adjustment were between 10-15000 across the scale), so maybe I just need to give it time to get used to it. Having never seen an accurately calibrated display before, I don't have any reference point. Would you suggest trying GetGray's disk as a cross reference, or should the results be the same?

Thanks to both you & Dan for your help.

Regards,
Jim

p.s. dvd player is a Denon 2900 via component, so no upscaling is occurring. I'm not real clear on what you're referring to when you say Rader's spreadsheet is HD?

Jim - Rader's spreadsheet is for HD only. There are slight to significant differences in the specs between SD and HD (e.g., the gamuts are different, the mix of primaries is different, etc.). Thus, calibrating using SD patterns with HD math can lead to the display looking slightly off. I am not sure if this is the primary cause you are experiencing, but it certainly sounds like you have some fundamental error that you aren't going to quite get away from without someone updating that spreadsheet.


Later,
Bill

Postalguy - Get a copy of AVIA and the test patterns there, or get Scott Horton's (GetGray's) disc from the "new calibration disc thread". Then, get Rader's spreadsheet. Finally, download and read my guide on calibration. Then, we can talk!

It's always something. I got Avia and took all the readings, but now I have a question about the spreadsheet. I've never used Excel before nor do I have it on my computer. Do I have to buy it (just for this) or is there another alternative?

I did find something called OpenOffice and can read the spreadsheet, but not write or edit, as it comes up as a read-only document. Their web page seems to indicate that you can do just about anything with it, so maybe I'm not using it correctly. I hope this is the case.

Help please:(

Postalguy - Open Office should be able to import the spreadsheet, but I haven't tried Rader's spreadsheet. I have used OO in other contexts and most "straight" spreadsheets have converted for me easily. Sorry, but I don't support other people's work. I will say that it is the best of what seems to be currently available for free, but that's about as far as I can go. :( I'd ping Rader for help on its use.

Later,
Bill

Thanks for answering. I finally figured it out by opening OpenOffice first, THEN open Colorimeter006. D'oh!

On a side note, none of my x,y readings are in the 0.3xx's. They are all in the 0.2xx's. Color Temps run from 24816 to 7440 from the first to the tenth reading. The relative RGB colors were not too bad with Blue being 20% above the line and Red only 5% below but the smallest adjustment of WB_BLUE_B_COEFF sends the Blue line to the top and mostly off of the chart, no matter which way I adjust it. Don't know what's happening there, but I'll keep experimenting with it.

Thanks again:)

Looonnnggg thread....

Can somebody tell me what I should get to calibrate my CRT PJ?

Will the spyder2pro do the job?
Or....does it have to be the STV?

Or....does the spyder2pro contain the same functionality as the STV with extra's on top?

Puzzled here

Here's one short answer: You might want to wait for the SpyderTV Pro that looks like it will use outside sources more gracefully than the STV or 2Pro 2.0-2.1 do right now, and includes wizards to make the process easy. The software included in the SpyderTV Pro will include overt grayscale adjustment features and presumably good gamma curve calculations, etc.

At least around here and as far as I can gather, the SpyderTV and Spyder2Pro 2.0 are used in more roundabout ways. One uses DVD (DVE, Avia/Avia Pro, GetGray) or Accupel, or DVE 1080i, or whatever-generated gray windows and colors fed into your pj and then measured by the colorimeter (the same new colorimeter comes with the STV and the Spyder2 Pro 2.0) to generate xyY values (xyY's for color coordinate and luminance that you access with the STV or 2Pro 2.0 in different ways) that are then plugged into a spreadsheet. I recommend you read the thread about the rader spreadsheet here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6295533&&#post6295533

There is a utility to transfer the xyY information more automatically into the spreedsheet.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=597170&highlight=xyY+utility

The Spyder2Pro 2.0, that I have, allows calibration of computer monitors through wizards in the software. It's front projection calibration wizard relies on the software and its video card and seems to presume you'll not be using outside sources in your HT. I haven't played with the other wizards to see if there's some way of using outside-generated sources but I don't think so. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here

Dan

Dan - Well said. You are spot on. :)

Clear, thanks a lot....I ordered the spyder2pro....the basics will be the same and I will have to get used to the user-interface...same sensor...so a safe purchase...

A lot better than measuring G2 of the tubes...eye-balling the -5IRE/+5IRE testpatterns in the tube en hoping I could use the default gain/bias as they are in the factory settings of the pj ;)

Looking forward seeing the true color data for a change

Sharing my experiences with using the Spydertv and Spyderman software available from Ursa. This is targeted at those that have no previous experience with using these kinds of products. Have had my widescreen tv for a bit less than a year. Have been into audio for about 25 years and know what some knowledge and tweaking can do for that experience. So I started to learn about tweaking the television for its best performance.
Have a Sony kdfxs955 lcd rp.
Started surfing and discovered many forums with information and opinion. Avs being one of the best. Many thanks to those who share their knowledge here. Nod to Umr and Ursa especially.
Acquired and used DVE, Avia and actually like THX optimizer for quick and easy calibration. Umr's GWIII tweak guide was a big help to me personally. Yes I know I have a GWIV.
Kept running into adjusting this grayscale "thing". While not seeming to grasp what was actually required to adjust the grayscale, I did notice that all articles concerning grayscale adjustment made note that it's almost impossible to do by eye, especially for one without a clue as to what was correct and what was not. This meant acquiring some kind of a mechanical device to calibrate the grayscale.
Wow! No one gives those away. That's a bit more than I care to invest without knowing what the benefit might be.
Kept looking from time to time for a more economical alternative to appear.
Checked into having an ISF tech come out, but was not able to find any locally.
Then I saw a post on this Spydrtv calibration device and was intrigued as it had a grayscale test. Waited to see what reviewers said about it. Was a bit disappointed in that it was only a one setting grayscale test. Then I saw Ursa's post with the potential for adjusting the full grayscale. Decided to buy it to compare its calibration to what I had been getting with Avia, DVE and THX and hopefully some grayscale calibration.
Spydertv helped me get my grayscale closer, I actually had my color temp at the worst possible setting. As far as the other tests the hue was the only one it recommended changing and only by a couple of clicks. Nice to get my grayscale closer but no other benefit than that for calibrating compared to what I had been using.
Getting the the grayscale closer to optimum did make for a better picture. Happy with that.
Conversed with Ursa a bit and decided to purchase his early software version of Spyderman. Between asking him a some questions, reading the documentation he had ready at the time and going to some websites he recommends was beginning to get an idea of what needed to be done to calibrate grayscale.
Didn't have Excel at the time and was hoping to use Open Office. OO opened the spread sheet but does not execute the macros written for Spyderman. Could definitely record xyY data and calibrate the grayscale.
Spydertv's grayscale test may get you closer, but it was no where near correct across the entire stimulation range.
What I learned was that x has to equal 3.13 for all ranges of light stimulation and y had to equal 3.29.
Have access to white balance controls in my user menu. Saw how I could use drv and cuts in my service menu if needed. Had read that x is mainly red to increase and blue to decrease. y is green. Learned that that is mostly true, but they all interact. Used the 20,40,60,80 and 100 values from DVE with my dvd player.
Spent quite a few hours chasing values up and down the stimulation range. I still spend quite a few when making a change. It's definitely a learning curve. Always Write down starting values and knew I could at least always go back to them.
Have some trouble trying to make red linear, but with each attempt to get each stimulation value to target I noticed a definite improvement in picture quality.
At this point I am very happy, I think, with how improving the grayscale is increasing my enjoyment of movies. These values when carried out to my other inputs are making an improvement there also.
Never quite content when I know there is more that could be done. soon I am attempting to find a slide show program that will let me use the bmps Ursa supplies with Spyderman. Much to my surprise when comparing the digital bmps to the analog dve pattern where they are similiar, I notice that all the slide show programs change the color of the pattern. Gah! Finally I make a movie of the bmps that have correct color. If you use a htpc its not a problem, but if you have to create a dvd be sure to check color correctness.
Now I get a copy of Excel. Now I can run the macros and actually compute gamma and get information from the graphs supplied with Spyderman. Oh my!
Remember I had been trying to get my grayscale values close for some time before I broke down and got a copy of Excel. I also knew I had a problem with red at 100%. At the same time as all this Ursa released his final Spyderman documentation. One area that grabbed me was his explanation of clipping a color. It actually penetrated my brain, like I said a definite learning curve. This is my first spreadsheet.
See firstpass.jpg

This was after a lot of time working on getting close to target xyY values.
With the info from the graphs I could see much clearer the problems and what I needed to work on.
This is seven or so later and a lot of adjustment.
See latestpass.jpg
These jpgs are only a small part of the spreadsheet and I apologize for the image quality.

Is it perfect? No. I am done with it? No. I am very happy with the results so far though.
If you are lurking in this thread and wondering if doing this kind of calibration is something you could do and will it be worth it, I would have to say most definitely yes.

Muggo,

That was a great write-up. It is nice to know that one can achieve such results based on the feedback and hard work of many forum members. Way to go :D

Mark

Good job Muggo,

your input is important and nicely done.

Does anyone know if these products will be shown at CES???

Larry

According to the press release in the other thread, the STV Pro will be shown at CES. As for the software Muggo used, I decided not to release it generally. However, as he indicates, with some work and some time with a spreadsheet, you can get pretty good results.

Congrats, Muggo!

Later,
Bill

As for the software Muggo used, I decided not to release it generally. Why? Don't want to become competition for STV Pro?

Has anyone seen pricing for SpyderTV Pro from CES yet? I've followed the link from AVS to the Audioholics CES coverage page but there doesn't seem to be any activity there.

I've been using a free color download calculator EasyRGB-PC. Plug in xyY values and it shows which color to adjust. I'm using Spyder2Pro on 62" Toshiba RPDLP. Was 12000K now 6500 +/- 200. Looks better.

Rahull, does the free version of EasyRGB-PC support a full grayscale calibration?

Do you feel that your SPyder2 is giving you decent dark grey readings?

Arwe,

EasyRGB-PC red, green, blue level indicators goes from 0 to 255 depending on xyY

Lowest gray window was 20, highest 100. Spyder software may be off some for RPDLP spectrum, but overall turned out pretty good. Waiting for SpyderTV Pro to upgrade.

Arwe,

The Datacolor brochure being handed out at CES is showing a price of $699 for the SpyderTV Pro. I did ask the company representative if there was going to be an upgrade price for recent purchasers of SpyderTV and was told there would be an upgrade program. The representative also stated that they hoped the product would be generally available within a couple months.

Scott

$699 huh? Good thing I was holding off on a graphics card upgrade until after the HDCP models came out. :eek:

Actually, compared to CFacts or Progressive Labs, this is still a bargain, but I admit I'm spoiled now! :)

Later,
Bill

Arwe,
The Datacolor brochure being handed out at CES is showing a price of $699 for the SpyderTV Pro. Scott

Within the past three weeks I've spent over $300 on the Spyder product line. If there is not a MODE$T upgrade fee I'll be pi$$ed! :mad: I purchased the products to 'calibrate' the sets my family members and I have. To expect an ameteur to spend $700 after buying their other products is beyond reality.

To be jerked around is not one of my favorite past times. I'll wait until the upgrade becomes available/official before I go ballistic... :o

Scott, thanks for the price information. It's a little more than I'd hoped for and a little less than I expected.

Arwe,

The Datacolor brochure being handed out at CES is showing a price of $699 for the SpyderTV Pro. I did ask the company representative if there was going to be an upgrade price for recent purchasers of SpyderTV and was told there would be an upgrade program. The representative also stated that they hoped the product would be generally available within a couple months.

ScottDoes this brochure have any more information than what we already know?
What I mean is: the original SpyderTV has, albeit hidden, the capability of showing precise color values that one can then fit into a spreadsheet... the only thing this new model has is software that automates that process? For $400 extra it seems a little bit overpriced, or is it just me?

The only other things the brochure I have says about SpyderTV Pro (as compared to SpyderTV) are:

1. It should be used by installers and high end enthusiasts (SpyderTV should be used by home users and home theater enthusiasts).

2. Works with front projectors.

3. Includes gray scale cuts/gains (gray scale control).

4. Has customisable reports (advanced reporting options).

5. Includes 1 year free online subscription service moderated by experts.

Scott

I talked with them also and the $699.00 price is real BUT they told me that if they scan you when it rolls out there will be a discount when they e-mail you from the show. They are expecting it to be out in March.

Does anyone have an Idea if this is the way to go????

Bill any idea's on this???

Larry

Ikosova, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "if they scan you". Do you mean registering one's name with DataColor at CES? Thank you.

Arwe,

You can call me Larry....

When you go to the booths at CES you have a scannable card so the manufactor can get your demographics(address, phone etc) to send you information in the future and to build their databases. So yes if you where scanned they can offer this discount and they know whom was there. I also got some online thing that I will take a look at later tonight and if it can be used by everyone will post the information later.....

I am switching hotels and need to pack....I am staying here thru Wendsday to do the THX course and spending most of the day at Alexis Park and "THE SHOW"....these are laid back two channel high-end gear....my mind is going crazy looking at video etc for the last 4 days!!!

I hope this was clear.

Larry

Well.....

I just looked at the card...go to:

http://www.colorvision.com/spydertv/spydertv_entry.html?source=Datacolor

fill out the form....win a Pioneer plasma and I was told a discount would be offered BUT I was scanned also and don't know if that matters.

Please don't bite the hand etc....if the discount is not offered...this is just what I was told and if I have time might go back and ask again but I am on limited time here today.....

Larry

Since the title of this thread is SpyderTV review, I decided to add my own thoughts about it. Not another review about the hardware, software and features, but just my experience and results with it. First, I must start of by telling everyone a bit about me. Like many here, I am a long time home theatre enthusiast. I have had the "best quality available" itch for a long time. As a kid, I remember taking the back cover off the first family color TV because I thought the convergence and color was not right. I also ran a wire from the speaker of my radio into my cassette recorder because I could not get everyone to stay quiet while I recorded my favorite songs. I am also a cheapskate! There, I said it. I make my own sound baffles, interconnects, speaker wires, stands and program my own JP1 remote. Can you say DIY?

Before SpyderTV, I adjusted my Toshiba CRT RPTV using three things. A $3 blue filter and a $12 Lumichrome 6500K florescent bulb and a $5 Kodak grey card. With these three things and many hours of play (I can not call it 'work' because I love it too much for that) I got a picture I could live with. I have seen an ISF adjusted image and short of a side by side comparision, I say, very close for $20 of tools.

That said, now the SpyderTV. I decided to splurge! The packaging is very nice. The unit looks very professional. The software installed and worked without problems. With the usual learning curve, I practiced on an old 14" unadjusted remoteless CRT TV monitor first. Using the software as intended gave mixed results. I found the picture to be a little too contrasty with just a little too much color. After turning down the contrast and color, the overall result was good. The grey scale on this TV was a little off, giving too much red in the blacks and a little too much blue in the whites. Now the /support option, which is the only reason I bought the SpyderTV. Off with the back cover of my old 14". I was able to adjust the xy coordinates using RBG cuts and Red/Green gains very close to the required .3127 and .329. The results cleared up the red in the darks and the blue in the brights but left me feeling the gray scale is a little on the green side. I may try again later.

On to my RPTV. Again using the software as intended, I got similar results, too much contrast and a little too much color than I like, but then, so did the blue filter method. However, the SpyderTV was closer to my tasts in HUE then was the blue filter. Now it was time to use the SpyderTV for what I really bought it for, to adjust the gray scale of my RPTV. Well, I am a little disappointed! Again I find the gray scale has too much green. This time even more than the 14". I may go back to the old gray scale settings. I may end up somewhere it the middle. I will give it some time for my eyse to adjust to the new settings. Maybe that's it, my eyes got used to old settings.

Now what? Though, right now, for me, I feel that the cost of the SpyderTV is not worth the results, I will keep it. Use it on different TVs (friends are always willing to let me ajdust their TVs). Experiment. Talk to others. I also have questions to answer. While the SpyderTV is used to adjust the "DVD to TV" chain, how about other devices like satellite/cable receivers and OTA tuners? My computer is also connected to my RPTV. I think I need to learn more about my RPTV. How to adjust gray scale for other inputs without changing the original. Also, how to adjust gamma in the "DVD to TV". Does it need adjusting or is it just a computer thing?

While the SpyderTV is used to adjust the "DVD to TV" chain, how about other devices like satellite/cable receivers and OTA tuners?A question I'd like to see answered too. :)

Larry, thanks for your reply, which was very clear. And no, I don't hold you personally responsible for the discount! :) Have fun during the rest of your stay. I wish I could be there, too.

Tony, thanks for the nice summary of your experiences and background. I enjoyed reading your post.

What software did you plug your xy data into?

Disto,

Your 'in the trenches' posting has prompted my response. I am much like you in the DIY arena and for the same reasons.

I've 'cal'd' three LCD sets with the SpyderTV and my findings are simular to yours. The package gets one close to where we want to be but not quite there.

I even used an RF modulator via DVD S-video out to RF in on an Audiovox 17" LCD that truly needed help with SD. The test patterns were somewhat shakey but I did get the settings to present a decent SD picture, not perfect but viewable.

I need to experiment next with my Samsung and Olevia RF and cable box inputs.

The DVD-TV cals are very close to what I'm looking for. I just need to find info on the multiple service menu items before I venture into the 'jungle'.

In retrospect, I should have waited until there was more feedback on SpyderTV before making any decisions. Do I regret buying it? No, but with the debut of SpyderTVPro I kind of wish I would have held off. If there is no 'break' for recent customers I'll really be irked!

Thanks for your perspective!