With all of the discussion surrounding the proper set-up of HTPCs, and the confusion surrounding PC versus Video levels, Datacolor, under its Colorvision brand, has finally released its SpyderTV (www.spydertv.com) product that was first shown at CES in January (2005). The goal of this product is to automate the set-up of Home Theater components using the Colorvision Spyder2 sensor. As a beta tester, I felt fortunate to be allowed to have early access to the product and to some of the people who were bringing the product to market.

HOW DOES IT WORK?
The SpyderTV package comes with the Spyder2 sensor, a universal mount for both tripods and display faces, a CD with the software and a DVD with test patterns on it. Once installed on a PC that can be put relatively near the display to be calibrated, the software walks the user through setting up the display. First comes color temperature, then contrast, then brightness and finally the various color controls, should your unit have them available (e.g., most displays being fed digitally disable many of their color controls like saturation and hue).
http://home.mindspring.com/~bill_b/spydertv/spy_in_action2.jpg

The process goes by relatively quickly (expect about a half hour or so), and the results can be merely good to dramatic (my CRT was set pretty closely to the final values the SpyderTV had me set, my LCD was nowhere close). The results of using the SpyderTV software as it is currently shipping with my H77 DLP front projector was not sufficient to overcome the poor factory calibration on this unit. More work is definitely needed on the H77 than just adjusting the simple, user-available controls, and Colorvision indicates that actual support for FP will be released later.

At the end of the calibration, the SpyderTV will print a report (see attached) that gives you details of what changed and how your display improved.

NET-NET
Is it better than DVE or Avia? It is certainly faster in my experience. The DVD does also include additional test patterns to set Contrast and Brightness visually before starting the calibration procedure, so you definitely do not need either of those discs if you are going to be SpyderTV-centric. However, the price differential between DVE ($20), AVIA (~$40) and the SpyderTV (MSRP: $269, about $240 on the street) is significant.

So, who is this for? People who want a rock-solid basic set-up, but who do not want to spend the time and hassle dealing with DVE (bad menu structures) and Avia (color errors in some patterns, no BTB/WTW).

The real question you are wanting answered, though, is will it do grayscale? After all, at $250, this is competitive with having an ISF tech come calibrate your display. Well, hang on for part 2 for that answer...

Well, early on in my testing of the Spyder2, I had a sneaking suspicion that it was the same sensor that I had gotten with my Spyder2 (plain) package. Since I also had a copy of OptiCAL (now discontinued, see FleaBay for resellers), I decided to test it out. The answer: sure I could get xyY data out of OptiCAL, but the results did not inspire as much confidence as I had hoped. I asked myself the question: are the results valid? are they consistent? what do I DO with the data, anyway?

The answers came with a lot of nosing around, a lot of research and a lot of luck. The research was easy, for several months, I had immersed myself in the works of Charles Poynton and Keith Jack to try to make sense of the data. Being something of a professional spreadsheet monkey, I had begun crafting a model that would give me usable results from the data that OptiCAL was providing. However, I then joined the beta program for the SpyderTV, and discovered one night how to get xyY data out of it. Unfortunately, this method would break with the shipping release, but an AVS user (Lee Bailey) came to my rescue. He told me how to enable the xyY data that my now broken interface no longer supplied:

SUCCESS!
A new shortcut was needed with a command line switch:
"C:\Program Files\SpyderTV\spydertv.exe" /support
I found 9 seconds gave me better results, versus the default 4 seconds, especially for low-light measurements.

http://home.mindspring.com/~bill_b/spydertv/spy_xyy.jpg

With the included tripod mount, using my SpyderTV with my DLP front projector is now easy to do:
http://home.mindspring.com/~bill_b/spydertv/spy_tri.jpg
http://home.mindspring.com/~bill_b/spydertv/spy_tri2.jpg
http://home.mindspring.com/~bill_b/spydertv/spy_tri3.jpg

BUT, WAIT, WHAT ABOUT ACCURACY?
Well, that is what has taken the longest. Thanks to Jeff Meier (avs userid: UMR), I have software that will work with the EyeOne Pro, the instrument that is the reference for field work.

Over two different nights, on two different weekends (did I mention this has been a heck of a lot of work??), I ran the EyeOne and both of my Spyders through their paces. My Spyder2 software has now been upgraded to the PRO, and I tested each unit with the PRO software the first go round. I would have also had a set of comparisons, but by the time I got to the EyeOne, it was four o'clock in the morning, and operator error kicked in.

Some kind advice from Jeff later, and the next weekend I was hitting on all cylinders. Of course, the ambient light problem in my space means that I had to start at 10pm, but hey, this is sort of like work, right?

The results you can see in the attached spreadsheet (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=41427). Using both the PRO and SpyderTV apps and sensors, I had very consistent resultswhen used on the same day. There is some disagreement between the Spyder2 and the EyeOne at lower light levels, but as you can see, there was divergence with the EyeOne on the two measurement passes I took below 40% stimulation (by the way, the second pass was much more believable to me given the Y values returned, and it matches the Spyder down to 30% stim pretty well on x and y coordinates).

So, now who is this thing for? The answer, anyone with $300 to spend who wants a solid grayscale, that may or may not have a bit of error in the lower reaches, and who wants to get to 6504K. All that you need is a good spreadsheet model and some patience (a dark night helps, too, in environments like mine).

Red really is the limiting color on my H77:
http://home.mindspring.com/~bill_b/spydertv/spyderman_gamma.JPG

Too bad that it is also oversaturated, and yellow does have a strong greenish cast to it:
http://home.mindspring.com/~bill_b/spydertv/spyderman_gamut.JPG

This is where the rubber meets the road. I definitely need to play with the RGB cuts and gains:
http://home.mindspring.com/~bill_b/spydertv/spyderman_rgb_bal.JPG

6504k? I don't think so!
http://home.mindspring.com/~bill_b/spydertv/spyderman_cct.JPG

But wait, you ask, what about the PRO? Should I get the PRO or the Spyder TV? For that, we should turn our attention to part 3 of the review...

A key question for users will be which model to get and how to determine which sensor you actually have. My answers to these two questions are summarized below:

Purchase the SpyderTV if:
You have displays (e.g., TV, projector) that are not connected to a PC and that you do want a more sophisticated calibration than what DVE/Avia provide.
You are looking to buy both the SpyderTV and the PRO for both PC and stand-alone displays.
You want to purchase the lowest cost solution for mixed-use, and you have a good quality software DVD player on your PC.
You are budget constrained and need the cheapest comprehensive solution available (full calibration, and do not want to also buy DVE/Avia).

Purchase the Spyder2PRO v2.0 if:
Your HT is predominantly PC-based, and it is not important to you to calibrate the non-PC displays.
You have a front projection based HT using a digital technology (e.g., DLP), and you are more comfortable with formal support for FP in the currently released product.
You are looking to buy both the SpyderTV and the PRO for both PC and stand-alone displays.
You want to purchase only one product for mixed-use, and you feel the profiling capability of the PRO is worth the price premium.
You need the Spyder2PRO for a PC environment, and your HT is a secondary consideration.

As for how a definitive method of how to tell which hardware you have, that is still an open question (as of 9/16/05). My retail SpyderTV that came straight from Colorvision showed as having software version 3CL and hardware version 3CL. I did not have software version 4CL with my sensor. I have asked the folks at Colorvision for clarification on this, and the answer was that software version 4 does not indicate a different sensor. Thus, there is no definitive way of determining which sensor you have if you do not have the shipping full STV or PRO v2 packages.

I am hoping that the upgrade comes back and is easy to purchase. My bet is that the upgrade was pulled because it would validate against the STV serial number, and that was an undesirable attribute. There may have been another issue, and I have not confirmed this hypothesis with Colorvision yet, but it seems plausible to me.

TRAINING THE SPYDER
It has been noted that the results of my initial colorimeter comparison showed unacceptable (read: noticeable) color deviations in the Spyder2 with my Optoma H77 DLP front projector. Having been in contact with Colorvision, I received a new, retail packaged sensor. Thus, I set about clearing my living room for an evening to re-run my colorimeter comparison.

However, since the refugees whom we sheltered wanted to cook us dinner (I had not been home for two weeks), I could not start measuring until after we had all had a good meal and watched Shrek 2 on the big screen. As a result, I did not get started until 11pm, so I only had time to run two sets of measurements for both the STV and the EyeOne.

The results are fairly interesting. For my DLP FP, the Spyder2 had fairly decent repeatability and accuracy. With the new STV sensor, repeatability was dead-on for my test. For all measurements above 0% stim (~0.3 Lux), x and y measurements rarely deviated by as much as 0.001! When I ran the same comparison for the EyeOne, .001 and .002 deviations from the average were the norm. Lacking a dedicated, NIST traceable light meter, I cannot validate the Y measurement, but given the issues I have had with the EyeOne at low light levels, I do suspect this measurement more than I do the xy data. Of course, given that x and y are transforms of XYZ, my suspecting Y does not necessarily make sense from a color science standpoint. It's really just a gut feel, that indicates someone with better gear than I have will need to give this a similar go (Colorvision, theoretically here soon...).

Given the high repeatability of the STV hardware, I decided to "train" my measurements against the results I received from the EyeOne. To do this effectively, one should have a reasonable set of measurement data for both the training device and the reference device. I would consider three points a minimum for this, personally, but I went ahead and used two to illustrate how to do it.

The results can be seen at the bottom of the attached spreadsheet. I used the measurement data from 10% stimulus through 100% and also the primaries and secondaries. This gave me 16 data points, which is a decent population on which to run a regression to give me both a measure ment offset (regression intercept, or alpha) and a scaling factor (regression coefficient or beta). More measurement points would be helpful for those trying to get real accuracy, though the t-stats on the slope (regression) coefficient are both highly significant.

Corrected data can then be generated by plugging the "x" data into the regression model for the "x" data set (don't get confused by Excel'slabeling here!!) and the "y" data into the regression model for the "y" data set. Those wanting to try this at home should use the SpyderTV as the "independent variable, and the reference instrument's data as the dependent variable. There should be a separate model for each of x, y and Y.

One important note that goes without saying, but just in case: if you are going to train your sensor, you need to have access to a reliable reference and do it independently for each sensor. One should not use someone else's training data on an untested sensor. If it was that easy, the factory would have included that information in the firmware itself.

Later,
Bill

Looking forward to part three -- though if I am reading the above entries right, though the SpyderTV may be able to work for doing grayscale on a FP system, the software included is not adequate? (One assumes that one could do grayscale calibration of a flat panel display too/even easier BUT that again the software is not adequate?)

RE: Optical

Do you feel that doing grey-scale with xyY data with The TV or Pro software is that much better than using Optical or did you switch from Optical to Pro just because you could ??

I have a Spyder and a Spyder2 and Optical but NOT the new PRO....

:confused:

Nathan - I did have to hack my own spreadsheet model to generate usable info from the xyY data.

Jim - I will try to get some numbers from OptiCAL to go along with the ones from the PRO and the TV. However, since I do not like ICC/ICM profiles for digital inputs (e.g., rounding issues being most prominent), OptiCAL provides the same level of functionality in this respect. The major question is whether it returns the same numbers. The TV, and presumably the next iteration of the PRO, are based on the ColorFacts codebase. I do not believe the same is true for the last release of OptiCAL.

However, since I have all three... :)

Later,
Bill

I received this e-mail from ColorVision support today regarding SpyderTV's ability to calibrate a FP:



SpyderTV with a Spyder2Pro software upgrade will perform the required task. This software upgrade is not currently available we anticipate its release in October for a nominal fee.

To further clarify: :)
The upgrade from TV to PRO will be for a fee.
The upgrade for the FP functionality for the TV will be free, but not soon. However, my results seem to indicate the TV does pretty well right now.
The major distinction between the functionalities appears to be how the automation is done.
If you can settle for a manual calibration, then either solution seems to be working well right now.

Ursa,

Is your LCD a LCD rear projector or the flat panel variety?

After calibration, did your CRT match the LCD???

To further clarify: :)
[list] The upgrade from TV to PRO will be for a fee.
The upgrade for the FP functionality for the TV will be free, but not soon.


I am feeling oh so :confused:

When you state "the upgrade from TV to PRO will be for a fee"; what exactly is being upgraded?

It is my understanding they would release a software upgrade in October (which allows FP calibration) for FREE if you own the PRO and for a nominal FEE if you own the TV.

So, if one can upgrade the TV to Pro, will they also be able to move from Pro to TV? Of course, the xyY readings are what I'm really after, but it would be nice to have the ease of the SpyderTV functionality once in a while.

Mark

Mark - You've got it. Just like one can purchase an upgrade to go from the base Spyder2 package to the PRO package, there will be a commercial upgrade between the PRO and TV. I do not know what "nominal" means in this respect ($50? $100?).

Scott - Colorvision is also planning on building the same wizard-type functionality for FP as they have for CRT, RPTV and Plasma and putting it into the SpyderTV package. This has not yet been done, and given the environmental factors involved, it may not be done for a while. It also does not help that the developer for the SpyderTV is also the developer for ColorFacts, with a new version of ColorFacts scheduled to ship this fall/winter.

The upgrade for a fee is for SpyderTV owners to get the PRO software. If you want to wait for the wizard, then it will be free - but it may be 2006 before it is available.

JimP - The above data was taken from my Optoma H77 DLP front projector. Unfortunately, I do not own either a plasma nor a rear projection TV, but if someone is willing to buy me one, I will take a boatload of measurements to satisfy people's curiosity! :D

The LCD in question is a five year old Viewsonic that is rated at 400:1 CR. It by no means looks as good as my dedicated old analog TV. However, it did look much better (just not in direct sunlight!).

Later,
Bill

Bill, over at B&H the Pro and the Tv are within 10/15 $ of each other would the Pro be the better buy?? What would one give up by going with Pro over the Tv ?? Can the software by UMR also be run on this or do you have to have the Eyeone for it?

Hardvark - One thing to note, I am not exactly using the shipping PRO software in these comparisons. That being said, you guys are going to completely obviate part 3 of my review with all of these questions about which one to buy. Right now, I would give the nod to the TV simply because it can do plasmas and you get the tripod mount. If you can wait for v2.0 of the PRO software (October), then there is a bit more total functionality there with the ability to create profiles. Basically, the net recommendation is if you are HTPC-based, go for the PRO, and if you are not, the TV is probably for you (unless you want to profile other PC-based displays in your house).

Clear as mud?

As for using Jeff's software, I prefer my own for obvious reasons (e.g., it works the way I want it to, it is laid out the way I like to see it). Mine is also a bit cheaper (quite a bit cheaper if Jeff eliminates his introductory pricing) than Jeff's since I am really only providing the math in an easy-to-use format (did I mention my interface broke from the beta to the release?). I do still have a couple of open issues to check out (e.g., PAL/SECAM gamma), so I won't be releasing mine until after Labor Day. However, this is all I'd really like to say on this subject since I do not want to turn this into a sales thread. Hit me on PM or at bill 'AT' datapopuli.com if you want to discuss this.

But if one want to use the icm profile to work with a software DVD player, he has to use VMR9 to get it working. no ?

Bill,

All the references here are to the Spyder2Pro, yet there are also cheaper Spyder2 and Spyder2Plus packages that only differ (AFAIK) in their software packages. Is there something special in the Pro package (similar to OptiCAL in v1) that provides the needed xyY values, that isn't in the cheaper packages?

Alternately, could a Spyder2 sensor be used with my OptiCAL software (from the Spyder 1 Pro package)?

Lastly, what did folks pay when having their v1 Spyder "refurbished" to a v2 Spyder sensor (Milori version, since apparently their are two different v2's)?

I'm glad that ColorVision has done nothing to make this confusing to potential customers. :rolleyes:

- Tim

"Alternately, could a Spyder2 sensor be used with my OptiCAL software (from the Spyder 1 Pro package)?"

I've been waiting for the answer to this one (see above).... I haven't even opened the box yet on my Spyder2, hedging on an upgrade if required....

"Milori version, since apparently their are two different v2's"

HUH ??????????????????

:confused:

Basically, the net recommendation is if you are HTPC-based, go for the PRO, and if you are not, the TV is probably for you (unless you want to profile other PC-based displays in your house).

Clear as mud?

I may have pulled the trigger too early on The Spyder2 Pro, but I was concerned about the ability to get xyY data with the Spyder TV. So I contacted Colorvision to ask if there is an "upgrade" path from the Pro to the TV and this is the response I received:

"Unfortunately, the method in which the colorimeter (Spyder) is
calibrated are different, a new product is required. To show our support
to existing loyal users, we are offering a 25% discount off the purchase
of your home theater product. For this offer to apply you must live
within the USA and purchase directly from ColorVision."

So, although they may be the same sensor, the calibration process seems to make all of the difference and it appears from Ursa's test that the TV may be better at lower light readings. Bummer.

Alright, now that we are all back together... :)

Tim - My answer to your above question was this:
Neither the Base model nor the Plus will give you xyY data, AFAIK. I will hopefully be testing OptiCAL this weekend against the PRO and TV software, so I can tell you then what I get. One important point of note is that the TV is designed not to have the light pipe/grate/filter attachment be removed - even for CRTs. This speaks to there being a bit of math that may be going on in the background that OptiCAL does not have. However, I will post my results when I get them.

I think getting a Spyder 1 refurbished at this point may no longer be possible. Heck, there are some Spyder2s out there that are not compatible with the TV software (the Kevin's point about there once being two different Spyder2s - though that is no longer the case).

Jim - If you bought the Spyder2 relatively recently, odds are that you have the latest sensor. I, too, originally bought the base Spyder and a copy of OptiCAL as a cheaper (<$200 total) alternative to the PRO (~$250). Colorvision has since provided me some new toys to test, and I have bought others to make sure that my testing is against a known, if not necessarily lab grade, reference. As I indicated before, there may some additional calculations in the PRO that makes it more usable than OptiCAL. For instance, I had to turn up the exposure time to 9 seconds (from 4) on the TV to get stable readings. I do not remember being able to control exposure/measurement time within OptiCAL (nor for the PRO, for that matter).

audiman - That sounds about right, but you may want to start a new thread on that one since it is not really Spyder-specific. Note (yet again): I am not a big fan of using profiles to replace proper calibration.

Al - In so long as your PRO is relatively recent, you should be fine for xyY data. The question is whether you really need the TV functionality/software.

EDIT: The sensor in the shipping SpyderTV is an upgrade from the one I beta tested. There is a difference between the sensors.

Here is the definitive word from the product manager from Colorvision:
SpyderTV hardware is universal; it works with ColorFacts and the Spyder products in our digital imaging line. Spyder2 colorimeter that is included in Spyder packages prior to SpyderTV release do not work with SpyderTV software. By the end of September, all the Spyders will be universal. ColorFacts Professional 6.0 that we will start shipping in September will include the universal Spyder. So, you are right in your argument, there is no such a thing as Milori Spyder2. Spyder2 hardware will work with all of our software products. Software packages will be protected.

We will offer upgrade packages to our customers. So, for example, STV customers will be able to upgrade to Spyder2 Pro by just buying the software. And, we will offer loyalty programs to existing Spyder2 pro customers so they can upgrade to STV. Again, ColorFacts Professional 6.0 is a free upgrade to all ColorFacts Professional customers. As I mentioned, we will publish meter comparison studies on our website so everybody can see how Spyder works against other meters. This is going to be very valuable information. We have full confidence in our Spyder2 hardware.

A few things from my own experience:
My Spyder2 seemed to work okay with the SpyderTV software, but then I have only just recently begun working with shipping software.
I had originally thought there would be a direct upgrade from the PRO to the TV, but apparently one has to buy the software and sensor package again. Seems like a better deal to get the TV and then upgrade to the PRO.

Hopefully this helps. Please keep in mind that I believe that I am pushing the boundaries of where Colorvision is going with this product, so if some of the answers seem confusing, it is probably because we are outside of their marketing plan.

Later,
Bill

In so long as your PRO is relatively recent, you should be fine for xyY data. The question is whether you really need the TV functionality/software.

Ursa,

I don't recall... did you test the Spyder2 sensor with the Spyder2PRO xyY data vs the SpyderTV xyY data?

Thanks,
Mark

Spyder2 colorimeter that is included in Spyder packages prior to SpyderTV release do not work with SpyderTV software.

Thanks for the update. I suppose then the question becomes, at what point did the Spyder2PRO line become universal - for existing Spyder2 users that is? Meaning, what hardware and software version of the sensor corresponds to the sensor included in the SpyderTV?

Also, if one were to purchase the Spyder2PRO package today, I gather they would be able to sidegrade to SpyderTV or upgrade to Colorfacts 6.0 in the future. Again, I think the confusing part is that you have two different sensors included with the same product - the Spyder2PRO package.

Mark

Just so I am clear....

If I purchase the SpyderTV today I will receive the latest hardware sensor and will be able to calibrate every device known to mortal man except for a front projector. However, Bill's testing will show us that we can get "darn close" by doing some manual math and such. Colorvision will offer a FREE software upgrade "sometime in the not too distant future" that will allow the SpyderTV to calibrate a front project via a wizard interface.

If all the above is true, is there a reason why someone should purchase the SpyderTV AND also purchase the Spyder2PRO software "upgrade"? What does the Spyder2PRO software offer that the SpyderTV software doesn't?


Thanks!

What does the Spyder2PRO software offer that the SpyderTV software doesn't?

The Spyder2PRO Studio offers the ability to calibrate and generate ICC profiles for you computer monitors among other things.

Ther package also includes:

nik Color Efex Pro 2.0 Standard Edition, PANTONE® colorist, and ColorVision® DoctorPRO to enhance, edit, correct, and specify colors on your images, screens, and printers.

Mark

The Spyder2PRO Studio offers the ability to calibrate and generate ICC profiles for you computer monitors among other things.

If the SpyderTV can calibrate CRT and LCD TVs then why can't it calibrate CRT and LCD monitors :confused:

Well, you can to a certain extent. Its just that the software isn't designed for it. Using the Spyder2PRO software is something of an automated process. It analyzes your CRT or LCD display and generates an ICC profile for you. I don't belive the SpyderTV software will generate an ICC profile. Spyder2PRO also has a colorimeter and other tools that can be used to obtain xyY data, but it doesn't include tools to model this data per say.

Bottom line, if you have an accurate way of modeling the data obtained from Spyder2PRO/SpyderTV readings, you can (with certain caveats) calibrate a display for your home theater (but you won't be able to generate an ICC profile based on this data for you computer monitor). The software just doesn't make this an easy process. Along those lines, the SpyderTV doesn't do grayscale out of the box. From what I understand, you would need to enable the SpyderTV to generate xyY data. In this case, you are back to obtaining additional software to model the data. Colorvision's Colorfacts (originally Milori) will model the data obtained from the sensor.

I think the confusion comes from the notion that there are now essentially two Spyder2 sensors. The sensor included with the SpyderTV and newer version of Spyder2PRO and the sensor included with older version of the Spyder2PRO. That and consumers are looking for a "one box" solution to do both tasks. I have a need for ICC profiles for my work on the computer, but I am also interested in calibrating the display in my home theater. It seems silly to need two *slightly* different sensors in this case.

Mark

I was editing my post above while some additional comments came in. Hopefully I have cleared up some additional confusion with my addenda to the e-mail I received from the Product Manager. Mark mostly has it as I understand it, with a few caveats:
I do not like ICC/ICM profiles with digitally-driven displays. They led to color errors that looked like they were caused by rounding errors on my desktop PC's monitor. A "real" calibration is probably in order for these displays (I used the SpyderTV and a software DVD player app on this monitor to good effect).
To do a "proper" (manual) calibration with either the TV or PRO, you need to be able to monitor the display's response across the range of stimuli (i.e., plug the xyY data into something...). My recommended approach for PCs is to get your desktop as close as possible manually, and then use the profile to smooth out the last little irregularities.
Right now, buying the TV and then getting the software upgrade to the PRO seems to be the best choice for those needing what both provide. Given that the upgrade from the Base Spyder2 to the PRO is ~$100, I would expect this to be an upper limit of what the upgrade would cost.
Finally, remember that ColorFacts cost $2400 just for the software, so I believe that we are doing well with what we get at this price point, without asking Colorvision to completely cannibalize the CFacts market.

Later,
Bill

I do not like ICC/ICM profiles with digitally-driven displays. They led to color errors that looked like they were caused by rounding errors on my desktop PC's monitor.

I agree. I wouldn't calibrate my home theater using ICC profiles. However, there are situations where you would want to embed the ICC profile in your digital work if others are to use it (outside of your own workflow that is). In this respect, it is beneficial.

That being said, at this point I would purchase the SpyderTV if I hadn't already purchased the Spyder2PRO some two months ago. Then, if I needed to generate ICC profiles in the future, I could be assured I was on the latest hardware/software.

Thanks,
Mark

So bottom line -- if one is only interested in calibrating Home Theater equipment properly one should purchase the SpyderTV AND purchase the PRO software specifically for the grayscale capabilities?


... it is probably because we are outside of their marketing plan.


Sounds like they need to change their marketing plan :rolleyes:

... one should purchase the SpyderTV AND purchase the PRO software specifically for the grayscale capabilities?

I'd say go with the SpyderTV. Judging by the original review, you will be able to obtain xyY data from the SpyderTV software.

Mark

you can load that nice equipment and come play on my 2 lcd screens....did i mention i have a ton of beer...i mean a lot of beer.

I'd say go with the SpyderTV. Judging by the original review, you will be able to obtain xyY data from the SpyderTV software.

Mark
All that you need in addition to the SpyderTV is a spreadsheet model (mine, Jeff's, your own, someone else's) to make sense of the xyY data.

you bringing that equipment over or do i need to send this beer back.

you bringing that equipment over or do i need to send this beer back.
Mike - I'm in NYC right now, with no ability to make it over. Besides, don't you want to go out and get a SpyderTV for yourself? ;)

I just got off the phone with the product managers for the SpyderTV and the SpyderPRO. Here is the latest official scoop:

1) The sensors in the TV and PRO are different!! It seems that the beta test hardware for the SpyderTV (STV) was just the current Spyder2 hardware with the new shell on it. According to them, the shipping SpyderTV will have even better hardware. I was not unhappy with the current performance. I am now expecting to be ecstatic with the new stuff - it will arrive this weekend, barring FedEx barfing on the delivery.

2) The current upgrade path is the standard "25% loyalty discount" when bought direct. There will be a software upgrade path, but only once the Spyder2PRO package starts shipping with the new sensor (basically, wait until the v2.0 release). Pricing has not been determined yet for the software-only upgrade path.

3) This now makes my default recommendation be for folks to buy the SpyderTV if you are looking to buy today, and then upgrade the software later if you want to add the ability to do profiling, printers or cameras.

Folks, I think this should clarify all of the outstanding questions, except the biggest one: just how good is the new "secret sauce" in the STV?

Also, yes, I am a bit miffed that I wasn't told a) when the beta had closed (a "thank you, we're done" e-mail would have sufficed), or b) that the hardware had changed. I apologize to everyone to whom I have given incorrect information. I now need to update the other four+ threads that deal with the Spyder on the forum.

So if i bougth my Spyder2 package in canada, i'm screwed ?

This now makes my default recommendation be for folks to buy the SpyderTV if you are looking to buy today, and then upgrade the software later if you want to add the ability to do profiling, printers or cameras.

Thanks for the update Ursa. So, going forward, one could purchase a SpyderTV today and be set should they want to upgrade to the Spyder2PRO Studio or even Colorfacts 6.0? This definitely makes things easier, although I am a little miffed because I recently purchased the Spyder2PRO Studio not more than a few months ago.

I think I am going to go ahead and purchase the SpyderTV. Judging by your post, I should be able to use my existing PRO Studio software and the upcoming 2.0 version.

Mark

Mark - The shipping Spyder2 is Not Bad for grayscale. However, if you do want the latest and greatest hardware, then yes, the TV is the way to go. How much better the new hardware is compared to the old one is TBD. I'll post my results as soon as I can get the new sensor and get a valid set of tests.

audiman - I would not say that you are screwed, but you do not have the latest and greatest. You may want to sell the existing product and grab the new one either direct (you can probably get the 25% loyalty discount direct) or via a reseller. However, your existing sensor will work for grayscale. It just won't be quite as accurate.

All that you need in addition to the SpyderTV is a spreadsheet model (mine, Jeff's, your own, someone else's) to make sense of the xyY data.

Without trying to break forum rules... will said spreadsheet(s) be "made available ;) " or a link(s) provided to point us neophytes in the proper direction?


Thanks!

According to them, the shipping SpyderTV will have even better hardware.

So if we purchase a SpyderTV direct, we will be guaranteed to have the latest sensor? Is there an associated hardware part number available for verification purposes?

The Manufacturer Part Number on the shipping version of the SpyderTV (from Colorvision's site) appears to be 'STV100'. Can anyone confirm this as the latest and greatest?

Mark

Scott - YGPM. There are several spreadsheets posted in the forum. Almost all of them have errors of one sort or another, and of one severity or another. As for the SpyderTV, you are guaranteed to have the latest and greatest sensor with the SpyderTV, period. It does not matter whether you buy direct or not. Theoretically, the PRO packages also are being shipped with the new sensor, but there is no guarantee about what you get there, even buying direct, until v2.0 of the PRO is released.

Mark - The bigger issue is what the part number for the sensor itself is and what hardware and software revision levels it contains. The PRO package, under preferences, will give you that info.

Mark - The bigger issue is what the part number for the sensor itself is and what hardware and software revision levels it contains. The PRO package, under preferences, will give you that info.

You got me there.

Mark

and what drink all this beer myself and try to learn how to set it up.

Question:
Will the SpyderTV, xyY data taken with the SpyderTV.exe, and your not yet available spreadsheet allow full greyscale calibration of a Plasma?
Will your spreadsheet be automated or streamlined with the SpyderTV software?

Samsonite

and what drink all this beer myself and try to learn how to set it up.
Mike - that's kind of the point... :)

Samsonite - Yes. Automated? Only if I can get the API. I had a hack, but it went away. However, I'll make a release announcement when it's available in a separate thread.

I can't write much, as I just got back from vacation, but to clarify the sensor "lineage":

Spyder1 is the 'older' stuff. The sexier looking Spyder2 is a big improvement in overall accuracy, low light level performance, speed, etc.. You definitely want to be in the Spyder2 'family'.
A couple of Spyder2 products shipped ("PRO" AND early SpyderTV Beta units) before SpyderTV was released. However, we discovered some things during development of STV that benefitted the HT space (it doesn't affect the digital imaging side much at all). This "universal Spyder" (what URSA is calling the "latest and greatest") will be the future hardware for *all* of the Spyder2 line. So, yes, there ARE two sub-versions of the Spyder2, but it is really only important to know that for the Home Theater space.
I believe that the PRO software will work fine with the hardware from SpyderTV, but the SpyderTV software will NOT work with the hardware from PRO.

Make sense?

The summary is that the hardware in SpyderTV will be the hardware in ALL of the products moving forward, and will be the "baseline" hardware that allows the software packages to be upgraded from the digital imaging-->home theater divide in the future.

Thanks for the update Mark!

So when one says the "shipping" version of SpyderTV contains the latest Spyder2 sensor, can we assume that means the latest Spyder2 sensor is included no matter the source (either directly from Colorvision, or some third party reseller)?

Mark

can we assume that means the latest Spyder2 sensor is included no matter the source

Correct. All shipping units contain the latest Spyder2.

It was only a handful of the early Beta units that used the original Spyder2.

If you got SpyderTV in the retail box, you definitely have the latest hardware.

could the "early spyder2" be recalibrated to the "home theater centric" specifications?

I hate this.... if I buy something and it becomes obsolete in a year, so be it.... but in just a few months???? Come on guys..... :(

:confused:

It was only a handful of the early Beta units that used the original Spyder2.

I thought I was late to the game for the beta! ;)

Mark,

Can you confirm if/when there will be a software upgrade for the SpyderTV (like for the PRO) that allows for calibration of a front projector?

Heads up:
The Spyder 2 Pro Studio front projector update is now available!

Heads up:
The Spyder 2 Pro Studio front projector update is now available!
Actually, it's the whole thing. v2.0 has shipped more than a month early. Wow!

After installing it tonight, I am not sure that this new version will bring anything significant to crt pj owners.

I would guess that there will be more to come from Mr spyder guru Bill! :)

Arno

i have not found any instructions for PJ - Spider- Hardware alignment for the 2.0 Version.

Not in the Software, Read-me ore User-guide. Mysterious how exactly it to use :confused:

Any Idea?

Regards Damdy

Damdy,

When you install the update, new options show up as you go down the process.
I don't know that they had a chance to do any documentation on everything since it seems that this was released early.

Arno

Damdy,

When you install the update, new options show up as you go down the process.
I don't know that they had a chance to do any documentation on everything since it seems that this was released early.

Arno

I have this tested first. But at the Point where I have to put the Spider on the "Monitor" theres no information how I have to mount the Spider for a PJ.
Only the same Picture as by the previos only Monitor Version 1.05.

Reagrds Damdy

Sorry, I had not understood what you meant.
Well, in that case, I strongly recommend that you have a look at this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=496565

There are pictures of how I setup mine, and plenty of instructions from knowledgeable people there.
(Version 1.x should not be that different...)

Arno

I have this tested first. But at the Point where I have to put the Spider on the "Monitor" theres no information how I have to mount the Spider for a PJ.
Only the same Picture as by the previos only Monitor Version 1.05.

Reagrds Damdy
Which version of the Spyder do you have? If you have the tripod mount, see if the pictures in the first post help you in how to use it. You will want a tripod, though!

Which version of the Spyder do you have? If you have the tripod mount, see if the pictures in the first post help you in how to use it. You will want a tripod, though!
It was shipped for 3 Weeks from Colorvision Switzerland. The Sensor- Information is SN: 00418788 Version: sw 3CL/ hw 3CL

The trippod mount will be shipped in the next weeks, but I have a tripod and can make a provisional attach.

Can you give me the Information, about my sw hw stand of the Spider. Is this "the better one"?

Regards Damdy

Sounds like the original Spyder2. However, I do not get mine unil next week, so if someone else has the full Spyder2PRO v2 package, they can post what the rev levels are.

Sounds like the original Spyder2. However, I do not get mine unil next week, so if someone else has the full Spyder2PRO v2 package, they can post what the rev levels are.

That is the same hw/sw version for my Spyder2PRO purchased three months ago.

Mark

Same for mine purchased a week ago...

Arno

Same HW/SW as my SpyderTV purchased this week, too.

Same HW/SW as my SpyderTV purchased this week, too.
If that's the same as the SpyderTV, then there may not be an obvious way to check to see which sensor you have. :(

Same HW/SW as my SpyderTV purchased this week, too.
FlipFlop,

Are you saying that you have the 3CL hardware/soft version for your spyderTV?
Well, if this is the case, then that means that I have the latest version of the sensor (same hw/sw revision) that came with the spyder2 pro studio.

If I understood correctly, ANY spydertv has the new sensor except for a few beta testers that got the old sensor...

Arno

Edit: Bill is too fast for me... :)

Arno - The two Spyders I have also said 3CL for both, and I was explicitly told I had the old hardware. I think that also explains the anomalies between the PRO and TV readings I was getting, since I was using the shipping software (e.g., it might have been expecting slightly different inputs).

Basically, I'll probably have to check with Colorvision to see how an end user can find out which sensor he or she has.

I was all excited for a second...

Does this mean that your spreadsheet model will have to be redone for the new sensor?

Arno

PS: Tonight I will be doing a bunch of calibration work. More to come...

Arno - The math stays the same with the spreadsheet model. The issue is whether the "raw" xyY data itself is accurate, and with my limited testing, the Spyder2 looks very usable. We'll have to see how much more accurate/precise the new unit is once I get it.

I do not expect CRT FP folks to get much more out of the new sensor, btw.

Later,
Bill

I do not expect CRT FP folks to get much more out of the new sensor, btw.

What I was hoping to hear... :)
Arno

Now if someone could convince the wife to let me have a CRT FP, then I could give it a real test!

Bill,
Austin is not so far from Houston... ;)
Arno

This is is what SpyderTV reports:

This product is licensed to Me

Serial Number: 6xxxxx-9xxxxx-1xxxx
SpyderTV Version: 1.1.104
Error Reporter Version: 1.00.0031
Resource Version: 1.00.0129
Resource 256 Version: 1.00.0116
Update Version: 1.00.0025
SpyderTV colorimeter Version: 4. 0. 0. 5
Serialization Version: 1. 3. 0. 1
SpyderTV Utility Version: 1.01.0008
Status Version: 1.00.0016


This is what Spyder2Pro 2.0 reports:

SN: 0051xxxx
Version: sw 3CL/hw 3CL


I bought the SpyderTV, and the $90 Spyder2Pro software upgrade so I can do both TV and PC calibration. One interesting thing difference between the two programs: The Spyder2Pro 2.0 program requires that you remove the LCD filter from the sensor when calibrating CRTs. The SpyderTV program requires that you leave the LCD filter on when calibrating CRTs. Measuring the same white screen with each program, I get these results:
Spyder2Pro 2.0: (CRT w/o LCD filter) x=0.316 y=0.327 Y=79.6
SpyderTV: (CRT with LCD filter) x=0.312 y=0.325 Y=95.4

Interesting. The differences I got were even more severe when I pulled the light grate off the Spyder2 and used it with the SpyderTV software (remember: I was one of the early beta folks who just got a Spyder2 with the new shell).

Arno - The grocery store looks a little far with gas at $3/gallon!

Later,
Bill

Bill, given that the SpyderTV and Spyder2Pro are in the same ballpark price-wise, and according to the Colorvision site the Spyder2Pro can calibrate FPs, is there any reason to go with the SpyderTV over the Spyder2Pro?

Stanger - the nearest reason I can think of is to pull together a basic calibration faster than you can get with the PRO. That is, you probably get a better result faster with the TV than you do with either Avia/DVE or the PreCAL routine in the PRO. Also, I do not have a PDP to check how well the PRO handles calibrating Plasma displays. For FP connected to a HTPC, you are probably better off with the PRO. Where you have a bunch of displays that are not connected to PCs, then go for the TV. My guess is that the TV plus the PRO software upgrade will be +/- $30 as the PRO standalone within about four months.

One strategy: buy the TV a discounted as possible ($230 according to Froogle), and then try to get the "loyalty discount" (25% off) by buying direct from Colorvision (this may not work since, by definition, an upgrader already has the product; I am taking FlipFlop's experience to indicate that the PRO upgrade works with the TV as well as the base or Plus versions). I would be careful about buying the Spyder2PRO from internet discounters right now since you may not get the v2.0 meter. Be careful when purchasing the PRO - most deep discounters are probably pushing older stock.

Later,
Bill

Wouldn't the main reason to purchase the TV over the PRO is to calibrate all forms of TVs (CRT, plasmas, DLP, LCD) whereas the PRO calibrates PC monitors...

Interesting. The differences I got were even more severe when I pulled the light grate off the Spyder2 and used it with the SpyderTV software
The SpyderTV readings I listed above were for the proper use of SpyderTV, reading the CRT with the LCD filter in place. If I take the LCD filter off, and make the same reading in SpyderTV I get results way out in right field (actually way out in foul territory ;) )

Incorrect use of SpyderTV (CRT w/o LCD filter): x=0.475 y=0.311 Y=1116.7
Incorrect use of Spyder2Pro 2.0 (CRT with LCD filter): x=0.243 y=0.319 Y=8.5

My point was that the SpyderTV software obviously is calibrated to make ALL readings with the LCD filter in place, and you get garbage with it not in place. I didn't see any references in either the SpyderTV software or the help file about the LCD filter, other than the demonstration pictures all showed it in place. On the other hand, the Spyder2Pro software specifically instructs you to remove the filter when measuring a CRT. There was some difference, though, between the Spyder2Pro readings and the SpyderTV readings, but I don't know if this difference is significant.

I did email DataColor and was told I could use the Spyder2Pro software upgrade with the SpyderTV package. I did, and it works.

FlipFlop - Good to know! ;) Did you get the "loyalty discount" when purchasing the upgrade or did you buy it retail?

Wouldn't the main reason to purchase the TV over the PRO is to calibrate all forms of TVs (CRT, plasmas, DLP, LCD) whereas the PRO calibrates PC monitors...
Scott - That line is, perhaps, somewhat blurry these days. :) I would agree with you in spirit, but I have seen way too many Windows error screens on the Plasma displays at airports for me to make too much of a TV vs. monitor distinction. In essence, a TV is really just a monitor with a tuner attached.

Later,
Bill

I have a question for you guys. I know it will be useful for me and hopefully for some others, as well. I've used the spyder2pro to calibrate a number of different televisions in the following manner. Use the colorimeter option from the tool menu, when it asks you to initialize, put the spyder on the display device showing an 100 ire field from dve and then initialize the spyder, then take readings with the 80 and 20 ire fields to adjust the bias/gains until the xy coordinates are correct. I've only done crts, so no need for the lcd filter for me. 2 questions--is this methodology correct? And, can I just do the same for my dlp projector? I would assume so, if I initialized using a bright white field displayed by that projector...

I have ordered v2.0 software for my Spyder2Pro. Like lewdog I have also calibrated my HS51 in pretty much the same way playing around with it over the months. We'll see how close it was/is with this new official FP software.

lewdog - this is a good start if you lack a mathematical model to really dial it in (it pretty much works regardless of what display type you are using). What you miss in this method is the ability to really maximize your contrast while maintaining proper color balance (e.g., white snow is really white, not bluish white). Embedded in contrast maximization is making sure your gamma is relatively flat and within parameters (e.g., 2.2 for HD).

Where this method will really help is with displays that are quite good direct from the factory (e.g., Epson projectors - at least my EMP-TW500, and reputedly InFocus HT projectors). For projectors that may be further out of whack, or that have weird gamma curves/color temperatures as their defaults, then you may want a more detailed view into what is happening.

2ntense - I would be curious as to whether the "secret sauce" in the SpyderTV sensor (Spyder2+ ?) might be specifically designed to handle displays like the HS51 that have dynamic irises. The Spyder2 was not bad with my Optoma, but it is a relatively bright and straight-forward DLP. The low light level of the HS51 may give you some really weird numbers if you aren't careful.

Later,
Bill

Hmm... What I've done is get greyscale for 20/80 ire and brightness/contrast the best they can be. I haven't done much with the gamma stuff because I've never taken much energy to understand it. So, I know the greyscale points are very close and the contrast/brightness is, according to dve, the best it can be. I don't understand how the mathematical modeling comes into this. Can you provide a basic overview of what the mathematical modeling's purpose is and how it's better than what I've done? I actually just don't even understand what you're doing. Thanks--always trying to learn.

PS Did greyscale and the new 2.0 version directs you to use the attachable filter for both lcd and dlp projectors. Originally, I used it without the baffle and the results were totally crazy, then went partway through the wizard and saw the instruction to attach it, which made it work out great.

now I have make my first Test with the 2.0 Version.
I have found a little Bug: The instruction for how to mount and arrange the Spider in Front of the Screen, works not every time. Most there comes the instruction for a Monitor (Projector is always checked, see attached settings- Picture) and sometimes the right one comes for PJ (without filter, high and space for the Spider on the Screen).

I have become odd results from the Calibration. The "S"- Curves in the Pictures are the calibrated Settings!? At this point I think the uncalibrated Setting are the better ones.
Have I make anything wrong ore what can be the hind for this?

I hope my english is not to bad, sorry for that.

Best regards Damdy

and the blue- curve

Damdy,

Unless I am wrong, I don't think that you did the calibration right.
When I am done with the calibration, I can click on the calibrated option.

Someone with more expertise will come in here pretty quick.

Arno

PS: Did you check the thread about the calibration with Optical in this forum?
Pretty good info there.

Damdy-cash - you really need to play with the contrast/brightness controls for each primary before locking in that profile. Otherwise, you will probably get very visible color errors with that much of a shift.

lewdog - I think that to do justice to the answer of "why gamma", I should really just point you to Poynton's gamma FAQ (and the others, for that matter) at www.poynton.com.

Ursa--I understand why gamma is important and what it is. I don't understand how you're using what mathematical modeling for what purpose, if that makes sense.

lewdog - I'll take you at your word that you understand what gamma is, so I'm a bit confused about the second half of your question. Not to be pedantic, but there is an equation that relates stimulus to luminance [Y, or light output]; this equation would be what is being modeled. Gamma is the name of the exponential term that makes it all work. I guess I'm missing where your confusion is unless it is "how does the gamma equation work", at which point I refer you back to Poynton. And then we go 'round again.

At some point, someone needs to yell out, "Third Base", before we go too far down this path. ;)

Later,
Bill

Would the Spyder2PRO software be of any use for calibrating any RPTVs? Or is it best suited for non-RPTV systems?

Lee - The only thing the PRO will give you over the TV you currently have is the ability to set-up a calibration profile for use with a HTPC. If you do not have a HTPC, or other PCs in the house that you want to calibrate/profile, then the PRO does you no good.

Ursa--You're right, I shouldn't derail this thread too much further. I think the biggest problem was I couldn't really think of how to ask the question in my mind, maybe because it wasn't crystal clear to me, even.
Here's your quote:

"lewdog - this is a good start if you lack a mathematical model to really dial it in (it pretty much works regardless of what display type you are using). What you miss in this method is the ability to really maximize your contrast while maintaining proper color balance (e.g., white snow is really white, not bluish white). Embedded in contrast maximization is making sure your gamma is relatively flat and within parameters (e.g., 2.2 for HD)."

By "mathematical model to really dial it in," I take it you're just referring to recording/understanding/adjusting all the xyY data so both greyscale and gamma are optomized as much as possible. As I already had been using the xy data and maximized greyscale, I guess gamma is the only thing left you're referring to to take care of. I think the questions of "What beside greyscale are you "really dialing in?" and, "Do you have some fancy program or equation (beside figuring out the gamma) that I'm missing?" are the things that were confusing me. I think I'm clear now--feel free to correct me if I'm not.

Ursa,

Where did you find the xyY data? I've enabled the "/support" command line option, but don't see an option for it.

Nevermind, I found it. I had to go to the command line to do it.

Thanks,
Mark

lewdog - you got it. There is a bit more to it than that, but you've got the key points.

Mark - Glad you found it!

Later,
Bill

Here are the hardware/software versions for my SpyderTV (purchased this week) vs my Spyder2PRO Studio sensor (purchased three months ago).

SpyderTV: sw 4CL/hw 3CL
Spyder2PRO Studio: sw 3CL/hw 3CL

Although the hardware remains the same, for what its worth, it looks like Colorvision updated the software in the SpyderTV sensor.

Mark

Maybe Colorvision can provide "loyal user recent buyers" of the "original" spyder2 with a firmware upgrade????? Most USB devices are capable of firmware upgrades....

:confused:

Jim,

I agree, but somehow, I doubt Colorvision would want the support calls on that one ;)

Mark

Maybe Colorvision can provide "loyal user recent buyers" of the "original" spyder2 with a firmware upgrade????? Most USB devices are capable of firmware upgrades....

:confused:

I think the sensor has to be recalibrated after the firmware is upgraded, and this is probably what makes this a non-starter.

My guess on the process: the new firmware delivers a basic set of numbers/readings that are interpreted/transformed by a look-up table/matrix that is embedded into the firmware that is custom for each device.

However, I'll ask the question!

Mark - Thanks! That sounds like we have a definitive way for PRO users to determine what sensor they have.

Later,
Bill

"My guess on the process: the new firmware delivers a basic set of numbers/readings that are interpreted/transformed by a look-up table/matrix that is embedded into the firmware that is custom for each device.

However, I'll ask the question!"

my guess is that the "calibration" referred to is the nominal table, I really doubt that each sensor is individually calibrated.... and PLEASE DO ask :D

:cool:

Bill,

Did you receive your spyder and did you have a chance to do a quick test?

Arno

Can anyone figure out how to set V2.0 software to enable RGB sliders when you choose projector? I only see this option when I set the software to CRT.

Arno - It arrived yesterday, so I'll give it a test soon.

Here is my situation. I have a three tube crt projector with hd8 lenes that I would like to calibrate ,but I also have a rear projection tv and lot of computer monitors. that I would also like to calibrate. What unit would be the best given my situation? I don't really care about a "wizard" if that is what would be lost of getting one vs the other. Is there an upgrade for one coming up etc.
Any suggestion would be appreciated.
Thanks
Don

Here is my situation. I have a three tube crt projector with hd8 lenes that I would like to calibrate ,but I also have a rear projection tv and lot of computer monitors. that I would also like to calibrate. What unit would be the best given my situation? I don't really care about a "wizard" if that is what would be lost of getting one vs the other. Is there an upgrade for one coming up etc.
Any suggestion would be appreciated.
Thanks
Don

Don,

I'm going with the SpyderTV. You'll get it at a better price than the Pro and you'll get the tripod attachment for your projector. If you feel the need to build ICC profiles to calibrate your computer monitors later on, you can always upgrade to Pro software. Of course, you don't need to use ICC profiles to calibrate your computer monitors assuming your monitors have the proper controls for adjusting grayscale, white level, black level etc, and you don't have a need to embed ICC profiles in any work you do.

Just my $0.02.

Mark

One other idea: if you do not already own DVE or Avia, then get the TV and think about upgrading to the PRO if you need profiling. Essentially, the SpyderTV, as shipped, provides more functionality for computer monitors than the PRO provides for normal displays.

Of course, if you know the menu layout of DVE by heart, then the automation of the TV isn't going to help you too much. But then, your last name is probably "Kane" in this scenario anyway... ;)

Later,
Bill

Ursa,

I have to agree with you here. DVE is going to get you essentially the same results. Although, you might find contrast to be a bit daunting depending on your display type.

The only reason I would recommend the SpyderTV over something like DVE is for the ease of use and quantifiable values obtained from the sensor. DVE *is* a pain to navigate, but with the included cheat sheet, it should be pretty simple. The nice thing about DVE is the additional test patterns and the educational aspect of the presentation.

I kind of wish Colorvision had included an introduction to home theater on their SpyderTV DVD. I suspect that a lot of folks will pick up the SpyderTV thinking it is the be-all-end-all of display tweaks. It sure would be nice if they got a bit more of an introduction to the subject.

Anyway, I recently purchased a Sony 30" 16:9 direct view that I have since tweaked using DVE only. I plan on running a SpyderTV "calibration" against it tonight or later this weekend to see how close my settings are to what SpyderTV thinks is optimal.

Mark

This is an email I got from Colorvision. I plan on connecting a HTPC to my projector if that changes anything. I wouldn't mind buying additional software down the road but I really don't want to have to buy two pieces of hardware as colorvision suggests.

Not sure why colorvision suggested the following.

Don,

Spyder2PRO will calibrate your projector and computer monitors but you
will also need SpyderTV to calibrate your televisions.

Thank you,
Elana
ColorVision Customer Support
1-800-554-8688
1-609-895-7430

Thanks for the info.
Don

Don - The hardware for the PRO is supposed to be the same as the TV as of the v2.0 release. Since there is not a software upgrade from the PRO to the TV, the easiest is to get the TV and then get the PRO software upgrade.

Later,
Bill

One other idea: if you do not already own DVE or Avia, then get the TV and think about upgrading to the PRO if you need profiling. Essentially, the SpyderTV, as shipped, provides more functionality for computer monitors than the PRO provides for normal displays.

Later,
Bill

I have seen a couple of references in ths thread to using the SpyderTV to calibrate computer monitors. Can you explain how this is done? For example, with my Nvidia graphics card there are separate (and different) controls for the desktop, video overlay, and fullscreen video. Since I would have to display the test patterns from the DVD, this would be displayed in the overlay or the fullscreen video windows and not the desktop. Also, some of these adjustments seem to affect other outputs. When I tried to adjust the overlay, it made my desktop look awful.

Thanks,

Ron

Hi All, the more I read, the more confuse I'm. Pls correct if I'm wrong, but below is my understanding of this SpyderTV. I'm looking forward to get SpyderTV if it can help me to tune greyscale, gamma and D65 color temp which can't be done using AVIA or DVE accurately.

SpyderTV - able to calibrate all sort of TV and Projector. Normal wizard software will only help to calibrate Contrast and Brightness. Software bundle do not calibrate greyscale, gamma and D65
SpyderTV - to calibrate greyscale, gamma or D65 color temp, then we need to enable the commandline /support to check xyX and use a spreadsheet by URSA to manually tune in adjusting projector color offset and bias.

If you wish to profile your monitor and printer (creating ICC profile) then you need to upgrade to Pro version.

Any place I can get/buy the spreadsheet and step to step guide on how to read the excel and fine tune the color offset and bias to meet the above objectives?

Thanks. USD 269 doesn't sound too expensive if it can achieve the above tuning.

Hi All, the more I read, the more confuse I'm. Pls correct if I'm wrong, but below is my understanding of this SpyderTV. I'm looking forward to get SpyderTV if it can help me to tune greyscale, gamma and D65 color temp which can't be done using AVIA or DVE accurately.

SpyderTV - able to calibrate all sort of TV and Projector. Normal wizard software will only help to calibrate Contrast and Brightness. Software bundle do not calibrate greyscale, gamma and D65
SpyderTV - to calibrate greyscale, gamma or D65 color temp, then we need to enable the commandline /support to check xyX and use a spreadsheet by URSA to manually tune in adjusting projector color offset and bias.

If you wish to profile your monitor and printer (creating ICC profile) then you need to upgrade to Pro version.

Any place I can get/buy the spreadsheet and step to step guide on how to read the excel and fine tune the color offset and bias to meet the above objectives?

Thanks. USD 269 doesn't sound too expensive if it can achieve the above tuning.

Sounds about right to me although Ursa is going to have to fill us in on the spreadsheet :cool:

I might add that "able to calibrate all sorts of TVs" may be a subjective statement. At this price point, I'm not sure we can say the SpyderTV will be as accurate as it's professional quality brethren. However, for MSRP $269.00, you're right, its not a bad deal.

Mark

Ron - You ahve it about right. Most monitors have, at a minimum, brightness and contrast controls. CRTs frequently have even more controls. These controls would be the ones to use with the SpyderTV and a PC. You would need a software-based DVD player on your PC, but I would be very surprised if anyone in this forum did not have at least one. (I had six, at last count - though I only use two of them...). Persionally, I would use VMR, if possible, when using the SpyderTV. Of course, you can mimic the test patterns from the DVD as well. The key is making sure the average lighting is constant.

rjyap - I am currently working on the documentation to go with my spreadsheet. I had hoped to get a good start on it over the long weekend, but I have a house full of New Orleans refugees, so it has been a bit hard to be productive.

Mark - At lower light levels, the Spyder2 seemed to be better than the EyeOne. However, at higher light levels, the EyeOne does definitely seem to be a more accurate sensor. If I can get some time with my projector when its dark, and there aren't refugees underfoot, then I'll rerun my test of the Spyder vs. the EyeOne.

I'll repeat my query from earlier: has anyone who bought the SpyderTV gotten ColorVision to give you the "loyalty discount" on the upgrade to the PRO software?

Later,
Bill

I'd like to post my first assessment of the SpyderTV vs a standard setup using DVE. This assessment would be useful to those debating the purchase of a SpyderTV vs the cheaper option of using DVE. Please see the attached SpyderTV Report for the complete results.

The setup was performed on a Sony KV30HS420 (30", 16:9, direct view CRT) display.

Prior to running the SpyderTV process, I used DVE following their standard setup procedure. Please note that no other adjustments have been made on this display other than those available in the user menu.

As you can see in the report, most of the settings obtained using DVE were very close to the "optimal" settings as prescribed by the SpyderTV. I had chosen the correct color temperature, brightness deviated by only one, color by three (intentionally), and hue by one. The only major adjustment was made to the contrast setting which was adjusted from 29 to 42 - contrast being a traditionally difficult setting to obtain by eye on a CRT based display (insofar as my experience is concerned). The report mentions that contrast was obtained in one reading - I may have to check this one again. I'm not surprised that this deviated so much as I tend to set my contrast a bit lower than some (by eye of course) but ~240 cd/m2 seems high.


Hope this helps,
Mark

Ron - You ahve it about right. Most monitors have, at a minimum, brightness and contrast controls. CRTs frequently have even more controls. These controls would be the ones to use with the SpyderTV and a PC. You would need a software-based DVD player on your PC, but I would be very surprised if anyone in this forum did not have at least one. (I had six, at last count - though I only use two of them...). Persionally, I would use VMR, if possible, when using the SpyderTV. Of course, you can mimic the test patterns from the DVD as well. The key is making sure the average lighting is constant.
Later,
Bill

Bill,

Thanks for the response, however I am still missing something. I am saying that if I play a DVD in a software player on the PC (I have a CRT monitor), it plays in the Video Overlay. The settings for the Video Overlay do not necessarily affect the Desktop in the same way. When everybody refers to using SpyderTV to adjust a computer monitor, are you just talking about adjusting for optimal display of a DVD in a software player and not adjustment of the Desktop (which would affect display of still pictures, etc?)

Ron

Ron - I think you are still thinking of profiling. Your CRT monitor won't know whether it is seeing the desktop (2D), Overlay (post-render), or Doom3 (3D). Instead, it will see a signal from your PC's VGA port. Assuming that your RAMDACs handle each of these display scenarios reasonably equally, then the changes you make to your CRT's brightness, contrast, and color controls will be correct for all of them. To the extent that your video card's RAMDACs do some "weird" stuff, then they will be different. You can test how weird your display is by mimicking the patterns in the SpyderTV DVD with bitmaps and a slideshow program (one is included with WinXP).

The key is that you are making changes to the controls on the display, not on the graphics card, with the SpyderTV.

Does this make more sense now?

Later,
Bill

Ron - I think you are still thinking of profiling. Your CRT monitor won't know whether it is seeing the desktop (2D), Overlay (post-render), or Doom3 (3D). Instead, it will see a signal from your PC's VGA port. Assuming that your RAMDACs handle each of these display scenarios reasonably equally, then the changes you make to your CRT's brightness, contrast, and color controls will be correct for all of them. To the extent that your video card's RAMDACs do some "weird" stuff, then they will be different. You can test how weird your display is by mimicking the patterns in the SpyderTV DVD with bitmaps and a slideshow program (one is included with WinXP).

The key is that you are making changes to the controls on the display, not on the graphics card, with the SpyderTV.

Does this make more sense now?

Later,
Bill

Thanks, Bill. I think I get it. You are talking about using only the physical buttons, dials, etc. on the monitor itself. I was thinking along the lines of the RGB, brightness, contrast, etc. available in the graphics driver control panel. This is where there are different settings for desktop, overlay, and fullscreen video. But this is what I was trying to understand -- whether the SpyderTV was being used for these settings. Once I set the limited brightness, contrast, and color temperature on the physical monitor, that will not necessarily mean that when I play a DVD with a software player that it will look optimal.

I have never used any software for creating profiles, so I don't really know how it changes the settings on a monitor and/or graphics card.

Ron

Ron - Profiles work the exact opposite. They only adjust the parameters of either the RAMDAC (good) or the color conversion matrix somewhere in the rendering pipeline (not so good, IMHO). I linked to a cheap-and-easy marketing blurb from Matrox in a different thread that showed the impact of the Parhelia's 10-bit RAMDAc vs. the 8-bit norm from nVidia and ATi. Let's just say that a video engineer would not be impressed by either! As a result, you have to go through a pre-calibration step when calibrating with a profile where you calibrate your display as accurately as possible before applying driver-level changes. Oddly enough, this is what the "PreCAL" software does in the Spyder2PRO. The problem is that the software requires the display in question to be connected to the PC making the adjustments (one can cheat, but it makes it way more tedious). This is why I say that the TV provides more functionality for PCs than the PRO provides non-PCs.

To provide additional background: the only place I know to be guaranteed getting the v2.0 bundle of the PRO software is from Colorvision directly at full MSRP ($299). For $310 - $320, you can get the SpyderTV from a discounter for $220 - $230, and the PRO upgrade from Colorvision for $89. Right now, there is no software upgrade going from the PRO to the TV, though there is one on the roadmap with an indeterminate release date from what I have been told (oh, yeah, pricing is also unknown...and I did not get the impression it would be cheap).

Later,
Bill

Ursa

Anything on them keeping the xyY data accessible but hidden to those in the know? I honestly see that the hidden greyscale functionality is it's only market. AVSers can figure out the basic controls themselves, and non-AVSers are not even geeky enough to buy the test pattern DVD so forget the SPyderTV there.

Also do you know if each sensor is individually calibrated at the factory - or are they mass produced nominal values? I would hope that the ColorFacts Spyder is individually calibrated - mine reported +/-0.001 xy error to the factories reference.

Kevin - Good questions. When the Product Manager for the TV gets back in the office, I'll ask.

For target markets, I don't think that we are the primary market. Instead, we represent the top of, in marketing terms, a pyramid of influence. In other words, people ask folks like us what they should buy, and then they buy it. Then they tell others that "they know this guy who really knows what he's talking about, and he says to get this doohickey..."

Where folks do not "get" DVE or Avia, then this product is great for them. Sure it costs a fair chunk of money compared to DVE or Avia, but for the Best Buy/Circuit City crowd, this is a good product. After all, how many of those folks have even heard of the ISF, let alone know how to hire an ISF tech? My guess is that the majority of an ISF tech's business comes from referrals from high-end HT retailers or are sole-sourced as A/V consultants (largely through word-of-mouth). Thus, I see this expanding the market for calibration, while not really cannibalizing anyone's existing business.

That being said, having access to the xyY data does give a certain amount of empowerment to the folks on this forum. When I specifically asked about the "/support" flag, the folks at Colorvision inidcated that they had expected that info to make it out eventually, so I do not feel bad about publishing how to do it. Personally, I think it helps spur adoption of the product amongst folks here, who then tell the less sophisticated folks to buy it.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, but I wanted to be sure that folks here knew who this was really designed for, so that when they think about describing it to others, they can understand that DVE and Avia are just "beyond" the non-hobbyist. (As yet another thread in the >$3500 forum asking about how to use DVE shows...).

Later,
Bill

As yet another thread in the >$3500 forum asking about how to use DVE shows....

Seriously :eek:

Send some of that green my way, I can put it to good use :)

Mark

Green? No green here. However, for your dining enjoyment:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=576066

Not to get off topic, but it boggles the mind.

Mark

I don't doubt that there is a market for those who do not grok the test pattern DVD - I question if that market will pay $200-300. I know there is a market because people pay me to do it for them - but I charge nowhere near what this thing costs for just doing the basics. For those who want to tap into greyscale backdoor capability it is a good deal as long as it lasts. But for doing the basic controls - Joe Blow is going to say you have to be freaking kidding me!

Ursa, you are definitely correct that the hidden options for xyY will sell the product. I'm using Avia for basic tuning and quite happy with the result so I don't see a point forking out another USD 269 for SpyderTV unless I can do something extra that AVIA and DVE can't do. Waiting for your result!

Interesting market survey - is anyone on AVS buying this because they could not grok DVE/AVIA - or is everyone planning on backdooring the greyscale with a spreadsheet?

I got my SpyderTV last Friday from Colorvision.ch and my versions are: sw:3CL/ hw:3CL.
I also own the Spyder2Pro Studio and the Spyder included in this package has the same versions as my SpyderTV. Spyder2Pro Studio works flawlessly with the SpyderTV hardware. Still had no time to test SpyderTV with Pro hardware.

Hi,

I lost myself. :rolleyes:

I'd like to buy a spider in order to calibrating my marquee 8500 ( or better calibrating what this item afford to me..)

Can you exactly tell me if the new SpiderTV is right for that surpose and it's just enough or I have tu buy other software ( pro ?) for crt projector


Thanks in advance and sorry for my english


Luca

Ursa, you are definitely correct that the hidden options for xyY will sell the product. I'm using Avia for basic tuning and quite happy with the result so I don't see a point forking out another USD 269 for SpyderTV unless I can do something extra that AVIA and DVE can't do. Waiting for your result!
Unfortunately it's been a little difficult to set-up the tripod on top of the people sleeping in my living room! ;) However, when I can get control of my living room back, I'll continue the comparison/review.

Kevin - Think upsell. People go to BB/CC/Fry's and spend big bucks. Unlike the additional warranties, the TV will actually help immediately.

Luca - Check the thread on using the Spyder2 to calibrate a CRT FP. The thread starter is "Charles Black".

Later,
Bill

Ursa

In order for upsell to work at the BigBox stores - it would have to have the same margin as power strips, cables, and extended warranties. It should come as no surprise that the big box stores push these accessories because they make more on them than the box the customer came in for. If Spyder2 is coming from the Computer and Photo biz, in which margins are non-existent and have been replaced with high service charges, indeed I would be surprised if DataColor is accommodating to the BigBox stores business model needs - and has priced it as a high margin accessory.

Nobody really thinks that a $50 DVD player cost less to make than a $50 cable - but they buy the cable anyways. And the $50 store warranty certainly is not worth the paper it is printed on! So the customer walks out with a $150 bill for a $50 item - and the store made $100 instead of $10.

This is the same biz model that results in $50 printers and $50 cartridges, $50 cameras and $50 flashcards, $50 cellphones and $50 'leather' holders.

Now maybe if they sold out and it was called 'MonsterTV' and hanging with the $50 cables - I think I would agree. Unless you are the Monster - you don't get the huge front rack in the store.

Kevin - I understand the rant against Monster, et al. However, for an cross-sell to occur, all that needs to happen is that the product seem to go with the base purchase. The absolute profit level merely drives how dogged the salesperson will be in pushing it! :) At a $269 MSRP, I would expect BB/CC/et al. to have a fair incentive to make sure that customers go home with these. The key is that this is a volume play for Colorvision. If they can make their unit volume predictions, then they [Colorvision] will have a successful product on their hands - because there is not other competitor offering a comparable product right now and for the foreseeable future.

Later,
Bill

Ursa

How much does bulk wire cost at Home Depot for 1000' spool vs. Monster on a per ft. basis. That will give you an idea of the margins that the BigBox stores get on wire! You are absolutely right - they will not sell an accessory unless they make more than the box it goes with!

The problem is that ColorVision/DataColor has zero presence in retail stores as a brand - it will be tough to get themselves placed on the accessory wall next to the cash register - but that is what you need to get the high volumes you need to have low manufacturing costs yet get away with high margins and still have reasonable prices. Monster is a successful company for a reason - and it ain't because they know how to make wire!

Certainly the volume market is not selling it to AVS geeks that are tapping into greyscale under the hood! But I suspect that as far as the AVS market goes - that will be the only thing worthwhile about it! I am awaiting the SpyderTV user review from the clueless AVS newbie that posted he cannot figure out DVE - that is who this is really for - the question is will he buy it without a sales guy slipping it into his shopping cart unnoticed? Though I do notice even the internet TV shopping sites are getting into the accessory game themselves - so maybe if it is a click to add deal - Dell got big because of that sales model!

Don - The hardware for the PRO is supposed to be the same as the TV as of the v2.0 release. Since there is not a software upgrade from the PRO to the TV, the easiest is to get the TV and then get the PRO software upgrade.

Later,
Bill

I sent an e-mail to Colorvision regarding purchasing the PRO software upgrade for MSRP of $89 ( I purchased the SpyderTV, but I do NOT own a previous version of SpyderPRO software) and this was Colorvision's response:

For this price to apply you must currently own the Spyder2 product.

It appears if a consumer wants both the PRO and the TV software packages then you need to purchase the full products with the Spyders for each.

I asked the same question, and Colorvision responded that I could buy the SpyderTV, and get the Spyder2Pro software upgrade. It seems they don't have a settled policy yet?

I did buy SpyderTV and the Spyder2Pro software upgrade, and they both do work with the SpyderTV sensor.

I asked the same question, and Colorvision responded that I could buy the SpyderTV, and get the Spyder2Pro software upgrade. It seems they don't have a settled policy yet?
This was the policy I was told from the product managers of both the SpyderTV and the Spyder2PRO. I would suspect a communication issue, more than a lack of a settled policy. Of course, the pricing they were talking about was signicantly more than $89... :)

I asked the same question, and Colorvision responded that I could buy the SpyderTV, and get the Spyder2Pro software upgrade. It seems they don't have a settled policy yet?

I did buy SpyderTV and the Spyder2Pro software upgrade, and they both do work with the SpyderTV sensor.

FlipFlop,

Did you have a previous version of Spyder2PRO software? If not, did you have any installation problems installing just the PRO upgrade; e.g. looking for a previous installed version, serial number, etc. If there are no issues or "software requirements" then I might just purchase the PRO upgrade -- its just that I don't need two sensors :rolleyes:

Edit: Wow! It looks like the upgrade offer has been removed from their web-site already. Guess I won't be purchasing the PRO... I also see they dropped the price of the SpyderTV from MSRP $269 to $199 ( and I paid more than $199 :mad: )

I also see they dropped the price of the SpyderTV from MSRP $269 to $199 ( and I paid more than $199 :mad: )

Where did you see that? It still shows $269 when I check their U.S. site?

Mark

http://www.colorvision.com/profis/profis_search.jsp?op=search&department_id=404

Not sure why the link isn't showing the updated pricing so I attached a screen capture as proof :confused:

Edit: I got to this web page by going to the store first and then went "shopping". Hope that helps.

You must have gotten there via some alternate means - maybe a promotional or loyalty discount perhaps? The reason I say this is because when I click on the link, I still see $269.

Mark

Mark,

Did you find the correct web-page?

Nope. Sorry :( Its okay though. I purchased mine for around that price anyway.

Mark

It looks like the upgrade offer has been removed from their web-site already. Guess I won't be purchasing the PRO... I also see they dropped the price of the SpyderTV from MSRP $269 to $199 ( and I paid more than $199 :mad: )

The $199.00 price was for pre-orders. The normal price is $269 retail.

That makes sense. I do recall seeing it for $199.00 as a pre-order.

Mark

It does seem that they pulled the upgrade from the website. the best I could find is:


2. If you already own a Spyder2 and want to upgrade to Spyder2PRO Studio 2.0...
Upgrade from Spyder2 for $85 and receive the adapter for FREE

To purchase the upgrade from Spyder2 to Spyder2PRO Studio 2.0, please call ColorVision Sales at
1-800-554-8688. NOTE: Hardware and software serial numbers are required to purchase the upgrade.

Did you have a previous version of Spyder2PRO software? If not, did you have any installation problems installing just the PRO upgrade; e.g. looking for a previous installed version, serial number, etc.
I didn't have any problems with the upgrade, even though I do not have any previous version of Spyder2 software. It just asked for the serial number which was printed on the CD case, and needed a Spyder2 sensor connected.

Coming soon (~8/30)

Please note, per an update from Colorvision, the hardware I was testing as part of the beta was NOT the shipping hardware for the SpyderTV. It was a Spyder2 sensor with the new shell on it. The shipping SpyderTVs have an improved version of the Spyder2 in the package that will only be in a retail PRO package, for sure, with the v2.0 release.

Does this mean Part III has been canceled? What would happen if I use the SpyderTV software as-is with my front projector?

Scott - I have had to delay finishing my review due to circumstances beyond my control. First, Colorvision sent me the SpyderTV via ground shipping, so it did not get to me until right at the 30th of August. Then Hurricane Katrina sent 4 of my wife's relatives to live on our floor for the last few weeks. Finally, my travel schedule for work has kept me in NYC for an extended time. So, just a few hurdles... (see my posts 113 and 129)

However:
1) I will make it home (finally) on Friday,
2) My wife's cousins have found an apartment in our neighborhood (thankfully!), and
3) I do have the sensor!

Thus, I think I should be able to get the final piece done in the next weekend or so. Sorry for trying your patience so much. It really wasn't my intention/desire. :)

Later,
Bill

I hope I didn't come across as being impatient, rather more confused ... I've been feel that a lot these days :o

Give your wife's family my best; I sure know that I wouldn't want to be in their position. I just hope the country pulls together again like after 9-11 because it sure seems like the ball got dropped somewhere. Based on the news reports it seems like things are improving quite a bit -- I guess better late than never.

Take care, Bill and I look forward to your posts -- always informative.

Anyone interested in a slightly used SpiderTV should PM me. I will sell them mine.

I hope I didn't come across as being impatient, rather more confused ... I've been feel that a lot these days :o

Give your wife's family my best; I sure know that I wouldn't want to be in their position. I just hope the country pulls together again like after 9-11 because it sure seems like the ball got dropped somewhere. Based on the news reports it seems like things are improving quite a bit -- I guess better late than never.

Take care, Bill and I look forward to your posts -- always informative.
Scott - Sorry to be a bit snippy! Your question was definitely a valid one, so I'm glad you asked it. I re-read my post, and what I was trying to convey certainly did not come through. I really am sorry that there are several folks waiting on a final shootout, and that I have not been able to break through yet to get it done. There is something of the "Type A" person coming out in me there! :)

As for your question I failed to answer, check out lewdawg's post earlier in the thread. You can use the xyY data to do a "better than basic" calibration by looking at 20IRE and 80IRE (or 70IRE). Your "x" value corresponds to how much blue or red you have, and the "y" value is how much green you have. If your "x" is too high, increase blue or decrease red. If your "y" is too high, cut green; if it is too low, then raise green (you can counterbalance green with a combination of red and blue, but for a starter, you may want to stick to this method until you get a better feel for what's going on).

For D65, your targets are:
x: 0.313
y: 0.329

Later,
Bill

If a consumer is willing to spend $2000.00 to $4000.00 for a new technology TV, the extra $269.00 should be justifiable to get their TV set up correctly. Of course, this would mean the picture they then get is not like the one they liked the look of on the showroom floor. They'll have to get used to it to appreciate it.

For those that do use the SpyderTV unit, they also need to be aware that they should go into the additional features, where they can use the provided test material to set their color by eye (fleshtones), as well as reference patterns for black, contrast, sharpness, etc. The SpyderTV unit with the supplied software, cannot do anything about Color Push inherent in the color decoder of the TV. It will get you in the ballpark though, from where you can set it by eye.

The user also has to realize that they are calibrating their system to the DVD player, so normal television programming may look different, especially if they are using black level at 0 on the DVD, compared to NTSC black level over the air. No matter what, their display should look much better than the way it came out of the box.

Ursa's work will benefit those of us who know how to get into the service menus, and are willing to spend the time to perform the adjustments to get their sets as close to grayscale as possible.

I know that after spending hours on the spreadsheet, my movies on DVD are just beautiful. On my cable, the digital channels look just as good. The analog channels differ greatly in quality, sometimes great, sometimes washed out, which is the nature of the beast I would think.

Lee,

The SpyderTV is not guaranteed to setup a display correctly. It can be a useful tool, but it is not anywhere near a complete or even sufficient solution for everyone.

You can use the xyY data to do a "better than basic" calibration by looking at 20IRE and 80IRE (or 70IRE). Your "x" value corresponds to how much blue or red you have, and the "y" value is how much green you have. If your "x" is too high, increase blue or decrease red. If your "y" is too high, cut green; if it is too low, then raise green
A good way to visualize this process is to look at the CIE1939 link in the post http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5722585#post5722585

The cursor on that chart is approximately your goal. If you plot your current position and your D65 target position, then you can see whether it needs to go towards the green, red, or blue diamonds to get from the current location to your goal. Increasing green moves toward the green diamond, decreasing green moves away from the green diamond. Same for red and blue. Make small steps, and iterate until you get there.

On my Toshiba TV, I tuned the 80IRE using RDRV, GDRV, BDRV, then tuned the 20IRE measurement using RCUT, GCUT, BCUT, and then iterated back and forth until I got both readings to the desired white point.

Actually I typoed that hyperlink - it is supposed to be CIE1931 not CIE1939 - but I cannot change it when people keep linking to it! And yes that is indeed a year - color science is really indeed that old!

On digital displays you run the risking of clipping the signal (which could also happen on a CRT with a digital processor). So I calibrate at 100IRE to find out when that happens and with what color - then you have to cut opposing two colors rather gain the desired color. But you have to understand the nature of your display - as some technologies behave different at 100IRE than they would at 80IRE - so compromise is the name of the game.

I got my SpyderTV last Friday from Colorvision.ch and my versions are: sw:3CL/ hw:3CL.

I thought that the latest sw for the SpyderTV was 4CL and that it was the SpyderPro that had 3CL ??? I'm confused here.

Paul

You're not the only one.... this whole Spyder thing is disheartening... especially the constant flux of versions of hardware, even seemingly without version changes! It seems you shouldn't buy any of this stuff until it's been out for a year or so.... they change versions of hardware too often and give you poor-to-none upgrade paths when you buy something "new" and it's obsolete 3 weeks later!!! :(

:(

I thought that the latest sw for the SpyderTV was 4CL and that it was the SpyderPro that had 3CL ??? I'm confused here.

Paul

My version of the SpyderTV has the 4CL software while my Spyder2Pro (purchased several months ago) has the 3CL software. I agree it is confusing.

From what I understand, the SpyderTV should always have the later software version. I take it this is not always the case?

Mark

Ok, let's see if I have this right: the upgrade from TV to Pro is no more? Yet latest sensors should be the same on all of them. Assuming my only application is backdooring data into a spreadsheet for grayscale on a FP: is there any need for the Pro software? I'm using an HTPC if that makes a difference.

My STV that came straight from ColorVision also had 3CL/3CL. However, it was definitely improved vs. my original Spyder2 and the Spyder2 I got with the beta for the STV. I'll post results here in a bit.

To clear this up, I am having a conference call with the folks at ColorVision as soon as we can sync our schedules. However, maybe one of them (besides Mark Hunter...) will jump in here to clear up the confusion.

Liersi - You do not really need the PRO is you are not going to use it to create profiles for your PCs.

Later,
Bill

Ursa,

Amazon.com has the following product on their website: Colorvision STV100 Spyder TV Colormeter for around $226. Is this ColorVision product the same product being discussed in this thread?
Regards,
TCIII

Yes, that's the one. The price is about what I got from Froogle the last time I checked, as well.

Later,
Bill

PS: The final part of the review will be up shortly - edit: the review is now complete. Please see the third post for the final installment (much of which is covered in the text of this thread).

Yes, that's the one. The price is about what I got from Froogle the last time I checked, as well.

Later,
Bill

PS: The final part of the review will be up shortly - edit: the review is now complete. Please see the third post for the final installment (much of which is covered in the text of this thread).

Excellent summary and conclusions Bill.

Mark

Thanks! Now to get the open questions answered and some documentation done to let people really exploit the tool.

Later,
Bill

Bill, great review. Waiting for your documentation on how to do the measurement. If the xyY data can be use accurately to trace Gamma, CIE Chormaticity, Color Balance and Color Temperature with the spreadsheet model, I'm definitely going to get SpyderTV. From your spreadsheet and chart, I do understand how to plot CIE Chromaticity. But how do you used the xyY to plot Gamma curve, Color Balance and Color Temp Graph? Guess have to wait for your documentation. Once again, great job! You are saving me big bucks from buying Milori ColorFacts which is very expensive (but come with easy to use wizard).

Bill, great review. Waiting for your documentation on how to do the measurement. If the xyY data can be use accurately to trace Gamma, CIE Chormaticity, Color Balance and Color Temperature with the spreadsheet model, I'm definitely going to get SpyderTV. From your spreadsheet and chart, I do understand how to plot CIE Chromaticity. But how do you used the xyY to plot Gamma curve, Color Balance and Color Temp Graph? Guess have to wait for your documentation. Once again, great job! You are saving me big bucks from buying Milori ColorFacts which is very expensive (but come with easy to use wizard).

Did Bill release the spreadsheet yet?

Mark

I have the spreadsheet but admit that without a basic doc to explain how to use it, I was not able to really understand how to use it...
Bill, a quick and dirty step by step instruction would be really awesome.
I am pretty lost in all this technical language... :)

Great reviews of both spyders BTW.
I had to keep the 2pro and will probably not buy the TV at this time...

Arno

how does one obtain the spreadsheet?

:confused:

I'll be releasing the spreadsheet model, documentation and test patterns under the name "SpyderMAN". Since I have about $1.5k invested in trying to find a "cheap" colorimetry solution (and let's not talk about the time... yikes!), it will be a commercial product (think SmartIII, but dedicated to the Spyder), but with a price commensurate with where the Spyder is priced in the market (i.e., it will be relatively cheap). As a result, I have tried to keep it away from this review other than to show what is possible with this data. I'll post a separate topic, with AVS' clearance, when it is ready for release.

Please note: I have also mentioned that there are other models (typically called "calibration reports") that have been posted on AVS that people can download freely (check the >$3500 forum for a few). Some of them have errors that range from minor to embarrassing for the author, but they are all usable. There is even the model-free version that has been posted previously by lewdawg! :)

Arno - you do yourself a disservice! I think it probably means that some of my field labels are a bit confusing!

Now, back to the Spyder itself!

Later,
Bill

I'll be waiting for your spreadsheet with paypal url in mind.... :D

:cool:

Jim - Thanks! :)

Alright, someone just e-mailed me with issues getting the /support switch to work. Has anyone else had problems?

Hi Bill, I had downloaded your ver 2 spreadsheet and look at the comparison. Looks like the x,y data is quite a close match to Eyeone but the Y deviated almost 200% on higher IRE. So, does that mean each of the SpyderTV hardware need to retrained with a trustable source? Anyone who purchase straight without second calibration would not get accurate result for Y luminance?

This is probably an issue with the EyeOne more than the Spyder. The Spyder has seven color sensors and a dedicated luminance meter (eight in total, hence the name). The range on luminance is 0.02 lux (I'm not sure I believe it) to over 2,000 lux (my memory fails me, but it's a really big number!). The EyeOne, on the other hand, tops out at 300 lux for its accuracy spec (http://www.gretagmacbeth.com/index/products/products_color-mgmt-spec/products_cm-for-creatives/products_eye-one-design/products_eye-one-design_specs.htm). As you can see from the spreadsheet, I was well over that on both meters.

So, which one is right? I don't know. I trust the EyeOne on color (xy), but I trust the Spyder more on luminance (Y). As I indicated previously, Colorvision was supposed to be conducting a shootout of the SpyderTV agains the EyeOne and others, but I do not know when/if that is actually happening, or what the results are.

Later,
Bill

It does seem that they pulled the upgrade from the website. the best I could find is:


This can still be used to place a order.

http://www.colorvision.com/profis/profis_view.jsp?id=442

I have an early Spyder2 in an unopened box that I bought a few months ago.... I presume it is now at least 2 firmware rev's old.... what is my best upgrade path to the latest sensor?

:confused:

Bill, thanks for the explanation. If you can come out with a good spreadsheet that can help to tune D65, Gamma, Color and with good pricing, you will get supporter here.

I have an early Spyder2 in an unopened box that I bought a few months ago.... I presume it is now at least 2 firmware rev's old.... what is my best upgrade path to the latest sensor?

:confused:
Jim - The answer depends upon your display:
- If you have a CRT-based display, you are fine.
- Otherwise, an upgrade is probably easiest.

The options as I see them: put the Spyder2 up on eBay, and grab the cheapest STV or v2.0PRO you can find. If Colorvision is still honoring the orders placed through the link above, then the easiest upgrade path is probably the STV with the 2.0 upgrade software for about the same money as the MSRP on v2.0.

rjyap - Thanks! As I said, I am not sure my gut feel makes sense, but the specs for the two meters are what drive my impression.

Later,
Bill

"Jim - The answer depends upon your display:
- If you have a CRT-based display, you are fine."

how so????

I wrote this customer-support question at the colorvision website:

"I have an un-opened-box Spyder2 purchased several months ago, which now has obsolete firmware. How can I upgrade to the latest firmware as released with SpyderTV ??"

This is the reply I got:

"SpyderTV is a separate product; the software does not support Spyder2."

I think THEY are more confused than I am !!!

:confused:

If Colorvision is still honoring the orders placed through the link above,
They are, I ordered on Sunday night using that link. And today I received the order confirmation with the tracking info that it has been shipped already.

"Jim - The answer depends upon your display:
- If you have a CRT-based display, you are fine."

how so????

The Spyder sensor has been accurate for CRT displays (both projection and direct-view) since the original version 1. The major improvement with the Spyder2 is reported to be in the area of significantly improved low light accuracy. The problem was in measuring the new-fangled digital displays. DLP is particularly nasty to measure accurately, so Colorvision has had to cook the product a bit longer to make it work better. This is the primary reason for the newer version of the sensor.

With me so far?

When Milori was stand-alone, they originally used a modified version of the Spyder1. Then they switched to using the EyeOne by GretagMacbeth (GMB) and the Trichromat-1, OEMed by Sequel Imaging. GretagMacbeth bought Sequel Imaging, so Milori was sourcing both sensors from GMB. Datacolor bought Milori and folded it into its consumer division under the Colorvision name. Datacolor and GMB compete against each other in the industrial market, so ColorFacts needed a new sensor. That new sensor needs to be as accurate, if not more so, than the Trichromat-1, and preferrably the EyeOne for ColorFacts' sake.

Still with me? Time for the big close...

The improved Spyder2 was used to measure a display that showed Something's Gotta Give with Jack Nicholson. Jack Nicholson starred in A Few Good Men with Kevin Bacon! :D

Basically, if you have a CRT-based display AND you have either the base or Plus Spyder2 packages, then all you need to buy is the PRO upgrade, and you have access to the xyY data. No secret sauce required!

John - Great to know!

Jim - If you have a CRT, then check John's link, and you are set! :)

Later,
Bill

Not the Kevin Bacon game!

Which movie did Kevin Bacon star in that his co-stars had more visible screen time than himself?


BTW Colorfacts is continuing to support all the sensors - only the bundled packages are now DataColor products - not GMB.

I have a recently acquired a Spyder 2 Pro
It works great on my CRT PC monitor and even my TFT monitor, but on my CRT RPTV it is WAY off, with a very red color balance.
Anyone have an explanation or fix for this?

As a work around, I calibrated my Sony G500 monitor and use it as a reference to calibrate my CRT RPTV.
Both are running from the same HTPC.
This works well, but is tedious to say the least.

Thanks,

Owen

Owen - you mean the sensor is off on your RPTV? Have you tried it with and without the filter?

Your Kevin Bacon comment made me laugh Ursa! :)

Wild Things right Kras? Forgive me if I am wrong - I haven't watched many KB movies lately.

Ummm no - Wild Things is in the category - "two hot young starlets getting frisky in the pool so you don't remember there were any guys there but you (in your dreams!)"

Owen - you mean the sensor is off on your RPTV? Have you tried it with and without the filter?


I have tried using the sensor with and without the filter on the TV and get unusable results either way.

There is nothing wrong with the sensor or the software as they work fine on my Sony CRT PC monitor and Notebooks TFT monitor.

There is something strange about the way the spyder perceives color on the RPTV.

"When Milori was stand-alone, they originally used a modified version of the Spyder1. Then they switched to using the EyeOne by GretagMacbeth (GMB) and the Trichromat-1, OEMed by Sequel Imaging. GretagMacbeth bought Sequel Imaging, so Milori was sourcing both sensors from GMB. Datacolor bought Milori and folded it into its consumer division under the Colorvision name. Datacolor and GMB compete against each other in the industrial market, so ColorFacts needed a new sensor. That new sensor needs to be as accurate, if not more so, than the Trichromat-1, and preferrably the EyeOne for ColorFacts' sake.

Still with me? Time for the big close...

.....

Basically, if you have a CRT-based display AND you have either the base or Plus Spyder2 packages, then all you need to buy is the PRO upgrade, and you have access to the xyY data. No secret sauce required!"

doesn't this mean that, even with a crt, the new sensor would be more sensitive and accurate at the lower light levels when setting grey-scale?

BTW, I have Optical.... wouldn't this give me the same xyY info?

:confused:

Which movie did Kevin Bacon star in that his co-stars had more visible screen time than himself? Hollow Man (When do I get my free SpyderTV????)

doesn't this mean that, even with a crt, the new sensor would be more sensitive and accurate at the lower light levels when setting grey-scale?

BTW, I have Optical.... wouldn't this give me the same xyY info?

:confused:
If you have OptiCAL, a Spyder2 and a CRT (FP, RP or Direct-view) then you are all set. In so far as I have been told, the "secret sauce" in the new Spyder2 is about accuracy for these new-fangled technologies. You really gain nothing as a CRT owner if you already have all of this for doing your own modeling. There may be other reasons to upgrade from OptiCAL to the PRO software, but that is for an entirely different article.

Charles Black and Brian Hampton have covered some of this ground in the FP CRT forum. You may want to pull up some of their threads on this (search for Spyder in that forum - a few good hits there!)

Later,
Bill

I have tried using the sensor with and without the filter on the TV and get unusable results either way.

There is nothing wrong with the sensor or the software as they work fine on my Sony CRT PC monitor and Notebooks TFT monitor.

There is something strange about the way the spyder perceives color on the RPTV.

Are you using the raw xyY data to make adjustments, or are you using a profile?

Given the success folks have had for a while with the Spyder2 in FP set-ups, I am really curious at your experience - the difference in screen materials should not cause THAT much of a shift...

Later,
Bill

Are you using the raw xyY data to make adjustments, or are you using a profile?

Given the success folks have had for a while with the Spyder2 in FP set-ups, I am really curious at your experience - the difference in screen materials should not cause THAT much of a shift...

Later,
Bill


Bill,
So fare I have only used the Spyder pro software and Optical to create profiles.
Both give a similar result, with an image that is fare too red.

I now have the RPTV set up as best as possible using the calibrated Sony monitor as a reference, and using the RGB Gain and Cut controls on the TV.
I then made minor adjustment to the RGB gamma curves on the PC, to fine tune the overall gamma and correct none linearity’s that I could not correct using the Gain- Cut adjustments on the TV.

I have not tried the xyY method yet, so if you could give me some pointers, I would appreciate it.

PM me if you like.

Thanks mate.

Owen

Owen - Check lewdawg's post earlier in the thread to see how to get close to D65 at two points in the grayscale. I would do this before creating a profile (the "PreCAL" portion of OptiCAL and PRO), so that the graphics card is working less hard with the profile.

As I have posted previously in other threads, I am not a fan of profiles absent other calibration efforts.

Later,
Bill

Bill,
I’m actually using very little correction on the PC, as the TV is now very close to the mark on it’s own.
Unfortunately, I cant get the TV perfect across the range with Gain and Cut adjustment alone, as the gamma is not quite the same for RG and B.
I will go look for lewdawgs posts now thanks.

Owen

Owen, I am waiting on a SpyderTV. I have been using a Spyder for my computer CRT for many years, in that case many of the final adjustments are made by OptiCal tweaking the LUT for my video card. In the case of my CRT TV, I will have to be ready to modify the Gains and Cuts for the guns. I have a pretty good idea of why I'd use the Gain setting (I have the same on my PC monitor), but when would it be necessary to use the Cut?

Did you place the Spyder2 dead center on the screen? If you place it too far to the left or right it will throw off your measurements by reading more light from whichever gun is closest.
Are you placing the Spyder directly against the screen? If so I would advise mounting it on a tripod a few inches away from the screen the same way the FP guys do.
If you have a protective antiglare screen (like most RPTVs do) it may also be throwing off measurements. Again try taking measurements with a tripod from further away. Also make sure that you are eliminating as much ambient light as possible.
I used a Spyder1 to set grey scale on my Hitachi RPTV with results good enough to keep me out of the service menu for a year and a half. I have a SpyderTV now which confirms that my earlier measurements are within the bulls-eye for D65.

I have tried using the sensor with and without the filter on the TV and get unusable results either way.

There is nothing wrong with the sensor or the software as they work fine on my Sony CRT PC monitor and Notebooks TFT monitor.

There is something strange about the way the spyder perceives color on the RPTV.

HollowMan is correct! No free SpyderTV's here though!

Owen, I am waiting on a SpyderTV. I have been using a Spyder for my computer CRT for many years, in that case many of the final adjustments are made by OptiCal tweaking the LUT for my video card. In the case of my CRT TV, I will have to be ready to modify the Gains and Cuts for the guns. I have a pretty good idea of why I'd use the Gain setting (I have the same on my PC monitor), but when would it be necessary to use the Cut?

The CUT is for the low IRE point. Sometimes adjusting the Gain will affect the Cut and vice versa.

Ursa

Nice Job on the comparison! I am sure that took a lot of time and effort.

One thing I was hoping you could compare was the Spyder2 Pro 2.0 front projection SW upgrade vs the STV vs the EyeOne. There has to be a major difference in the software b/c before I downloaded the 2.0 SW I had to remove the filter while working on my Toshiba CRT RPTV or I would get ridiculously erroneous readings while using the colorimeter. Since the upgrade, the filter must be attached to get proper readings. I have not tried it on my Samsung HLP- 5063W DLP RPTV yet. My Toshiba has been recently cal'd by a well known calibrator and the readings returned were very close to spot on especially at the higher IRE. I just do not know if the DLP readings will be as reliable b/c I do not have a point of reference.

Alvin

The CUT is for the low IRE point. Sometimes adjusting the Gain will affect the Cut and vice versa.

Thanks Lee. That makes a lot of sense.

Ursa

Nice Job on the comparison! I am sure that took a lot of time and effort.

One thing I was hoping you could compare was the Spyder2 Pro 2.0 front projection SW upgrade vs the STV vs the EyeOne. There has to be a major difference in the software b/c before I downloaded the 2.0 SW I had to remove the filter while working on my Toshiba CRT RPTV or I would get ridiculously erroneous readings while using the colorimeter. Since the upgrade, the filter must be attached to get proper readings. I have not tried it on my Samsung HLP- 5063W DLP RPTV yet. My Toshiba has been recently cal'd by a well known calibrator and the readings returned were very close to spot on especially at the higher IRE. I just do not know if the DLP readings will be as reliable b/c I do not have a point of reference.

Alvin

Alvin - My first set of tests used the PRO v2.0 beta software with my DLP. There was a bit of inconsistency between the PRO and STV software for luminance. However, with the shipping releases, I think they have harmonized the code bases, so I'd be real surprised if there was such a big difference using the shipping code and the shipping hardware.

Later,
Bill

Might be stupid question but anyway: If I tune in the D65 color temperature using RGB Cut and Gain, do I still need Tint and Color control? From my understanding is once you manage to achieve close to D65, your color should be dead on accurate without any green or red push. Please enlighten me.

you set D65 using the luminence channel i.e. no "color".... black and white.... that sets white to "white".... THEN you need to attack the color decoding chain.... seperate issues!

:cool:

You can do gamma mostly with the luminance (Y) channel, since green dominates our perception of brightness. However, setting your white point to D65 very much requires all three colors to be balanced.

Later,
Bill

OK. Thanks for the explanation. Going to order SpyderTV soon.

Update:

I have the SpyderTV, over the weekend I ordered the Spyder2Pro upgrade software for the $89 from the link I posted above.

I received the Spyder2Pro upgrade today, installed software entered in the 'key" number that was provided with the software, plugged in my SpyderTV sensor, is seen it as a Spyder2 sensor, and it ran with no problems at all. So I went to Colorvison website to download the new Spyder2Pro ver 2.0 upgrade, as the version I was sent was the older 1.0.5 version. And again, the installation process went perfect with no problems at all.

Also just a note.
My SpyderTV witch was ordered direct from Colorvison during the 'pre-order' special pricing. Is also another one of those that is version sw:3cl/hw:3cl

I hope you're right because I just ordered the PRO2 upgrade (to go with my SpyderTV) from the link you posted. All I want to do is calibrate my front projector and my RPTV and Colorvision apparently doesn't want to make it an easy process.

Is it me or does it seem like Colorvision's left hand doesn't know what its right hand is doing? :rolleyes:

Personally, I just think that we may have interests in both products that are slightly outside the intended target audiences! :)

Later,
Bill

Hi Guys,

This is just the Spyder2 sensor as far as I can tell, bundled with Pantone Colourist software:

http://www.dabs.com/uk/Search2/Product+Details.htm?quicklinx=3s98&searchphrase=spyder

Does anyone know if the software that comes with it can give the xyY data we need? If so, it's an even cheaper option.

Gary.

Gary - That's the "base" model, and it does not give xyY data. Only the PRO and TV versions do.

Later,
Bill

Thanks Bill.

Just a thought though - isn't it just the software that gives the data, and the sensors are all the same?

Gary.

Okay I am confused with all the talk between Spyder2 Pro and SpyderTV. Bottom line I want to know now is if I purchase just SpyderTV, will I be able to calibrate my front projector? Thanks in advance for any feedback you guys can provide.

Can you? Yes. However, the current shipping software for the SpyderTV does not include an adequate wizard for performing the calibration with any form of automation.

Hi Ursa,

Just wanted to get a idea what you are planning with your software =p

I have a Spyder TV and got the Pro 2.0 upgrade as well. However I am looking for a software that allows me to show the current colour temp so i can use my scaler to calibrate. My Lumagen allows me to calibrate up to 11 IRE points for 6500K color temp. The problem is how to show whats it current color temp at that IRE when I am calibrating. I know that Colorfacts does that but I am not going to pay US$1.6K just to get that capability. Will your program with the addition of the SpyderTV colorimeter enable me to do that?

Thanks!
Oliver

Doesn't the 'colorimiter' tool show the color temp? If not, you can use the chromaticity calculator at Milori to derive the colour temp from the xy data:

http://www.milori.com/articles/chromaticity.asp

Anyone know if all the Spyder2s used in the product range are identical or can they only be used with the supplied packaged software?

Gary.

Thanks Bill.

Just a thought though - isn't it just the software that gives the data, and the sensors are all the same?

Gary.
Gary - The sensors in the STV and PRO products are the same as of v2.0 of the PRO bundle. I believe this holds true for the Base and Plus versions, as well, though I have not asked. Also, the STV does not include a field for color temp in its measurement window, only xyY. One can use the "McCamy's N" to estimate color temperature (the most commone), or another algorithm. I'd be curious what CFacts uses (the only ones I found that claimed improved accuracy did so at color temperatures that are ridiculous for HT use, e.g., 25,000+ K!).

Oliver - Since I am trying not to pollute this thread with talk of specific add-ons, I will refer you back to the first post. I would caution you that "11 IRE steps" could be a huge adjustment, but would be useful only on a primary-by-primary basis. Also, IRE has no place with digital connections (it is a measure of analog voltage).

Later,
Bill

Also, IRE has no place with digital connections (it is a measure of analog voltage).

I think Oliver is using the term IRE figuratively - so to speak. Lumagen refers to "IRE Points" in their documentation with reference to specific points along the grayscale that correspond to common test patterns such as the gray window patterns in Avia. I believe Avia labels these as 10 IRE, 20 IRE, etc whereas DVE labels them as 20%, 40%, etc. So really, I think what Lumagen is calling "IRE" is just a given point along the grayscale.

Lumagen's FAQ (http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=faqs) has a more detailed explanation of the use of the points when calibrating one's grayscale. See the section entitled How do I use the new 2/5/11 point color temperature command?

Please note, that this is not meant to be a debate on the use of the term IRE. Whether it is correct or not in this case is not my place to say. I just want to clarify the terminology with respect to the Lumagen video processor.

Oh, and I have to agree with Ursa, adjusting 11 points is quite an undertaking. I've used the Lumagen back when it was on the 5 point "Color Temperature" menu and it was quite enough for most applications. However, as the Lumagen FAQ points out, there are certain displays (mine included) that have humps or dips along the grayscale. In this case, having 11 parametric points to adjust will help in smoothing this out. When I have done this in the past, I would typically start with two points and work my way up if need be. Just my $0.02 though.

Thanks,
Mark

Hi Ursa,

Just wanted to get a idea what you are planning with your software =p

I have a Spyder TV and got the Pro 2.0 upgrade as well. However I am looking for a software that allows me to show the current colour temp so i can use my scaler to calibrate. My Lumagen allows me to calibrate up to 11 IRE points for 6500K color temp. The problem is how to show whats it current color temp at that IRE when I am calibrating. I know that Colorfacts does that but I am not going to pay US$1.6K just to get that capability. Will your program with the addition of the SpyderTV colorimeter enable me to do that?

Thanks!
Oliver

Gary's correct , I've got the Studio2Pro V2.0 and it has a colorimeter display +xyY under tools, Takes about 5secs to sample.

I've used it to manually calibrate my Z3.

Thanks for the answers.

Does the colorimeter display measure the color temp at only 100IRE? So I must show a 100IRE Window and use it to measure the colour temp. But if I show a 50IRE Window it does not work? =p Unless I can change the program to tell it that i am measuring 50IRE instead?

Thanks again
Oliver

Thanks for the answers.

Does the colorimeter display measure the color temp at only 100IRE? So I must show a 100IRE Window and use it to measure the colour temp. But if I show a 50IRE Window it does not work? =p Unless I can change the program to tell it that i am measuring 50IRE instead?

Thanks again
Oliver

I hope not! Or that means I've calibrated my Z3 all wrong.

I'm using a seperate laptop conected to the spyder for the calibration with my HTPC showing avia IRE based charts.

You shouldn't need to tell it what you are measuring, the spyder is looking for color-temperature and this is available from any light source.

Studio2Pro is designed to build profiles for your graphics card, that is matching the graphics cards display by a wizard driven target.

I'm not using it like that; I run AVIA from HTPC displaying the IRE field patterns, set the spyder up on tripod in centre of screen 30" away. Then plug spyder in laptop which houses the software (note the software would usually be calibrating the system it is on if you were using wizard profile) but we need to use AVIA rather than the wizard, hence the laptop for the calibration.

I then dig out the colorimeter window which is set up to read 255,255,255 (user definable but irrelevent for our runs) from it's own screen (we are using the HTPC output ). I am making a big assumption that the spyder is just reading what you are pointing at, that is taking a measurement of a Gray window wherever it comes from, in this case - AVIA.

I hope not! Or that means I've calibrated my Z3 all wrong.

I'm using a seperate laptop conected to the spyder for the calibration with my HTPC showing avia IRE based charts.

You shouldn't need to tell it what you are measuring, the spyder is looking for color-temperature and this is available from any light source.

Studio2Pro is designed to build profiles for your graphics card, that is matching the graphics cards display by a wizard driven target.

I'm not using it like that; I run AVIA from HTPC displaying the IRE field patterns, set the spyder up on tripod in centre of screen 30" away. Then plug spyder in laptop which houses the software (note the software would usually be calibrating the system it is on if you were using wizard profile) but we need to use AVIA rather than the wizard, hence the laptop for the calibration.

I then dig out the colorimeter window which is set up to read 255,255,255 (user definable but irrelevent for our runs) from it's own screen (we are using the HTPC output ). I am making a big assumption that the spyder is just reading what you are pointing at, that is taking a measurement of a Gray window wherever it comes from, in this case - AVIA.

ROne,

So that means that basically I show a IRE100 window take a reading, use the relevant cuts and gains to get 6500, then move on to IRE90 and do the same and so on? If this is it, then it is great news!

Oliver

ROne,

So that means that basically I show a IRE100 window take a reading, use the relevant cuts and gains to get 6500, then move on to IRE90 and do the same and so on? If this is it, then it is great news!

Oliver

That's exactly what I've done, though I start at 80 then got to 30, back and forth then sort out inbetween.

ROne,

So that means that basically I show a IRE100 window take a reading, use the relevant cuts and gains to get 6500, then move on to IRE90 and do the same and so on? If this is it, then it is great news!

Oliver
Oliver,
If you are going this route, you willl want to use contrast controls (aka gains) for the high-end (70/80/90/100 IRE), and brightness controls (aka cuts) for the low end (20/30 IRE). You need to toggle back and forth between them to take into account the interaction effect that each has with the other.

If light output were linear, which it is not, but assuming it is, the contrast controls the slope of the line and the brightness controls the intercept. However, the intercept (0 IRE) is not necessarily the "pivot point" for the contrast adjustment. Thus, raising or lowering the brightness impacts the color balance at both the high and the low-end by raising the illumination "floor" for that color. Under ideal circumstances, raising the contrast would not impact the amount of light emitted at 0 IRE (or 7.5 IRE, depending upon whether there is set-up). However, this cannot be assured.

Now, hopefully this helps rather than confuses the issue more...

Later,
Bill

Oliver,
If you are going this route, you willl want to use contrast controls (aka cuts) for the high-end (70/80/90/100 IRE), and brightness controls (aka gains, drive) for the low end (20/30 IRE). You need to toggle back and forth between them to take into account the interaction effect that each has with the other.

If light output were linear, which it is not, but assuming it is, the contrast controls the slope of the line and the brightness controls the intercept. However, the intercept (0 IRE) is not necessarily the "pivot point" for the contrast adjustment. Thus, raising or lowering the brightness impacts the color balance at both the high and the low-end by raising the illumination "floor" for that color. Under ideal circumstances, raising the contrast would not impact the amount of light emitted at 0 IRE (or 7.5 IRE, depending upon whether there is set-up). However, this cannot be assured.

Now, hopefully this helps rather than confuses the issue more...

Later,
Bill

Bill,

Think I understand what you mean. Let me play around with it this weekend and see what I come up with.

Oliver

Oliver - note, I edited the above post. I, yet again, swapped cuts and gains. Sorry to the CRT guys in the room! :o

One other thing: the official word from Colorvision is the the "sw" and "hw" revision levels do not represent different versions of the hardware. (nearly a direct quote there).

Later,
Bill

Oliver - note, I edited the above post. I, yet again, swapped cuts and gains. Sorry to the CRT guys in the room!

Ursa, just so my pea brain understands it :->, that's cuts for the high end and gains for the low? And that's the cuts and drives for each of the three guns?

Tony - I prefer "brightness" for the low-end, but other synonyms seem to be offset, bias or cut. For the high-end, it is "contrast", but a synonym is "gain".

so I called colorvision today to ask about the product and the sales guy told me the opposite of what it says on their own site so:

If wanting to do dlp front projector like Infocus which one do I get and if I want to do varrous tv's in the house can I use the same one???...

Also If I want to do my computer moniters can I use the same one???

Thanks to all,

Larry

Larry - I covered this pretty thoroughly in the beginning of this thread, but it bears repeating. The STV currently does not officially support FP of any sort. The PRO Studio does. You can use the STV for FP, but there is some level of error involved versus my reference EyeOne.

As for which model to get, please see the second post of this thread.

Later,
Bill

Bill,

Thanks for responding....I read the whole thread last night(head still spinning) and I saw an ad for it in one of the home theater mags that I read so I called them just to ask a question and Mark(Or Mike) said the opposite of what was said on this thread saying that the "tv" in the name was for "any" tv including front projectors and the "pro" was only for computer and video monitors hence the name....

Now you know why I asked this again.

Thanks BTW....you are doing a great service with your posts....

Larry

Larry - Thanks for the compliment! Understanding colors and getting them accurate on my H77 has been a bit of an obsession for me of late. It's also a pretty daunting task!

The SpyderTV will formally support FP in the near future, but the last time I fired up the application (last weekend), it still did not have an option for selecting FP as a display type. However, that has not stopped me using it with my H77 DLP FP.

The big difference between the PRO and the STV is the ability to create profiles with the PRO vs. the lower price of the STV. I, personally, believe that a user would be okay with either - providing they got the latest sensor if they are using anything other than CRT.

Later,
Bill

And if the user(me) want to do crt also along with front projectors then the pro would do it???

I know this is ad nasueam but my head it getting to full(I have kids they take up to much brain space)....



Are there any lower priced "real" calibration hardware/software packages that don't cost $1800 but can get the job done pretty close to theat of the "real" calibration packages???

Thanks,

Larry

Larry - The PRO will do you just fine.

As for this:
Are there any lower priced "real" calibration hardware/software packages that don't cost $1800 but can get the job done pretty close to theat of the "real" calibration packages???

Jeff Meier (umr) has a pro-grade software package he sells that uses the EyeOne. You are looking at a hair over $1k with this package between the sensor and the software. Cheaper than that, nothing is currently formally on the market, but there will be soon...

Later,
Bill

Ok Bill,

you have my attention...what do you mean there will be soon??????

Larry

Larry - Please see post#214, above, in this thread. Also, see oliverlim's post to which I was responding.

Larry asked
And if the user(me) want to do crt also along with front projectors then the pro would do it???

and Ursa answered
Larry - The PRO will do you just fine.

So is there any reason at all to install the actual Spyder TV software? I just got in the mail my SpyderTV and the Spyder2PRO software upgrade. The PRO software has been installed; will the TV software get me anything at all?

Bill,

Any idea of how soon your "fix" will be ready?

Scott

BTW, is there any kind of trick to sliding the puck to a new position? My sensor came with the puck toward the USB end, and I want to move it closer to the sensor, but the cable does not easily slide through the opening. I'm afraid to pull on it very hard.

Tony - The STV software should give you a better result than the PreCAL routine in the PRO for all but digital FP.

Scotty - I'll know after the weekend.

Update:

I have the SpyderTV, over the weekend I ordered the Spyder2Pro upgrade software for the $89 from the link I posted above.

I received the Spyder2Pro upgrade today, installed software entered in the 'key" number that was provided with the software, plugged in my SpyderTV sensor, is seen it as a Spyder2 sensor, and it ran with no problems at all. So I went to Colorvison website to download the new Spyder2Pro ver 2.0 upgrade, as the version I was sent was the older 1.0.5 version. And again, the installation process went perfect with no problems at all.

Also just a note.
My SpyderTV witch was ordered direct from Colorvison during the 'pre-order' special pricing. Is also another one of those that is version sw:3cl/hw:3cl


And if the user(me) want to do crt also along with front projectors then the pro would do it???

I know this is ad nasueam but my head it getting to full(I have kids they take up to much brain space)....

Just wanted to confirm that I too purchased the SpyderTV for RPTV and then purchased the Spyder2PRO "upgrade" for front projector. The Spyder2PRO software installed without any problems as well as the Version 2.0 update downloadable from Colorvision's web-site. Haven't had time yet to play with the Spyder2PRO software because I too have children plus two new puppies -- too much fun! :D

SKnight1,

Report back when you get a chance and lose the kids but keep the puppies!!! My dog is still wondering why my kids are still around and when they are leaving..

Larry

Tony - The STV software should give you a better result than the PreCAL routine in the PRO for all but digital FP.

Bill (Ursa), I'll give STV a try on my CRT TV. In the meantime I used the PRO software to recalibrate my PC monitor. This is marginally OT but relates to your comment. I set up the software for Advnaced capabilities but it seems to run in a simpler fashion than OptiCAL did. I did not find a separate PreCAL menu selection. PreCAL seems to now be the first part of the overall routine. What surprised me was there was no quantitative portion in setting the white and black points like in OptiCAL. Just setting them visually by using white and black graduated bars. Am I missing something?

There's not much more to it than that which I can remember. However, my aversion to profiles means I have not delved as deeply as I should into the PRO suite.

Later,
Bill

From the "Tools" menu in the Spyder 2 PRO select "Colorimeter". It pops up a Window where you can select RGB values (0-255) and will display xyY coordinates.
I tested out the Spyder2PRO software upgrade with the SpyderTV sensor last night on my Hitachi CRT RPTV. With the 1.0.5 software that came with the upgrade I got horrible results for xyY readings, something like x=.246 y=.387. After upgrading to the 2.0 software from the web the readings came back the same as reported by the 'spydertv.exe /support' reading. So if you choose to buy the SpyderTV and purchase to PRO software upgrade make sure you download the latest software from the web.

I did not find a separate PreCAL menu selection. PreCAL seems to now be the first part of the overall routine.

Not sure if was posted, but Audioholics did a review also.

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/DatacolorSpyderTVreview.php

So if I am calibrating using SpyderTV, AVIA and Zoomplayer on my HTPC what Gamma level should I be shooting for? I have read the CRTs should be calibrated to a gamma of 2.5. The way I understand the explanation at the Poynton site it sounds like my video card will perform a transfer function at the famebuffer to convert final gamma to 2.2 (assuming it is connected to a 2.5 gamma CRT). So if I am using the HTPC to calibrate I should shoot for a gamma of 2.2 correct? That should ensure my CRT is at the correct 2.5 gamma level assuming I do not change the settings on the video card?

Technically, 1/0.45, but you are correct. Do not use the gamma control on your video card until you have exhausted the capabilities in your display.

A few questions I didn't get.

1. Does the unit have any way to perform gamma calibration at all?

2. Is the colortemp target dedicated for 100IRE?

3. Is there an API of any kind to get the xyY data out (not just graphically using the /support commandline)?

A few questions I didn't get.

1. Does the unit have any way to perform gamma calibration at all?

2. Is the colortemp target dedicated for 100IRE?

3. Is there an API of any kind to get the xyY data out (not just graphically using the /support commandline)?
Ofer -
1. The STV does not natively. Hence the need for a model.
2. Color temp is independent of % Stimulus. IRE is very frequently misused as % stimulus. I do not believe that the pattern the STV uses for CCT uses full-intensity color.
3. They won't even acknowledge that question when I ask. I am highly skeptical that they will release one for (www.colorfacts.com) obvious (www.milori.com) reasons.

Later,
Bill

Ofer,
I used the "spyder.exe /support" option with the Avia 10-100IRE Grey Scale patterns and an Excel spreadsheet written by forum member garyfritz posted here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5651885&&#post5651885
For each test screen I just enter the xyY data in the spreadsheet. For each IRE screen the color temp and luminance get's plotted along with the ideal gamma curve so you can see how your display compares with the ideal. It takes me about 2 minutes to run through all 10 grey scale test screens and enter the data so it is not a big deal to enter everything manually.
I modified Gary's original spreadsheet so that the RGB data is extracted from the xyY data using a conversion matrix instead of needing to be entered manually. Gary's spreadsheet is usable by entering just the xyY data as-is but it will not show you the red, green, and blue gamma curves without the RGB data (which SpyderTV does not report). I asked Gary for permission to post my modified version of the spreadsheet but he has not responded to me yet.

rader,

it's still going to be quite tough to use this technique to properly calibrate a gamma curve in this manner....