Snazio SZ-1350 Net DVD Cinema HD network player [Text View]

MorganB

08-25-05, 07:22 AM

Hi guys. I received my Snazio SZ1350 today that I orderd from snazzishop.co.uk on Monday. Just a few quick impressions for now as I have just set it up and gotten everything going. Haven't really had time to sit down and watch much content.

Setup:

A bit daunting. The remote is very sluggish as others have noted. Its makes the setup fustrating. First you have to pound away on the TV mode button on the remote to get an image on the screen. My snazio is connected to my screen by a DVI to HDMI cable. I ended up with a 480p image after several presses which gave me access to the setup screen. I didnt realize at first that I needed to go into the setup and change the resolution to fit my screen. As my screen is a native 720p I set it to DVI 720p and it seemed to be happy. It didnt like DVI 1080i which caused some odd image behaviour. I would think the TV would be able to accept that and scale. Will investage further at a latter time.

I have the Snazio hooked via ethernet into a d-link wireless router. It immediately got an IP with no setup at all. Nice.

Installation of the software on a Mac running OS X was easy. Just drag and drop. The software has no interface. You just launch it and it works.

Use:

I opened the tray, dropped in a DVD, pressed the close button and the drawer tried to retract and then jammed. It came back out after a few seconds. Tried again, same thing. Pushed a little then it wouldnt do anything. So i unplugged everything, opened up the Snazio SZ1350. The wireless network card was not plugged into the board and had fallen into the back of the dvd tray blocking mechanism. I put the network card in its place, closed the unit back up and then the dvd tray worked fine. Seems like they need to work on the QC before these players go out the door.

I tried a couple of 1080i ts files and they played beautifully with DD 5.1. Only watched them for a few minutes each so cant comment on if playback is consistent for an extended period of time. Will report back on that.

I then tried the network feature. When I navigate my HD, the remote suddenly becomes responsive. When I leave navigation it becomes sluggish again. I hope they fix this ASAP in a firmware update because it is very bad. Unacceptable if you ask me and the player should not have been released with this bug. I have an apple cube and as the built in network card is 802.11b, I have added an ethernet d-link wireless 802.11g adaptor and have disabled the internal card. I was able to stream my HD content wirelessly between my computer and the router. I watched for about 10 minutes and it played flawlessly. Crossing my fingers that I wont have to put an ethernet cable between my computer and the router as I had expected I would.

I created a little website with some pictures of the packaging, contents and player for those that are interested:

http://homepage.mac.com/morgan68/Snazio_SZ1350/

I am a member of a couple of other video forums and will post this there as well so if you go to other forums and suddenly feel as if you have already read this, its not deja vu ;)

Dolfo

08-25-05, 09:04 AM

SeeMoreDigital

08-25-05, 09:22 AM

Nice one guys...

Okay... possible sh1t hitting the fan time!

Has anybody tried playing 6Ch WMA Pro and 6Ch AAC audio streams by outputting the signal via the analogue outputs?

Cheers

Dolfo

08-25-05, 10:30 AM

Nice one guys...

Okay... possible sh1t hitting the fan time!

Has anybody tried playing 6Ch WMA Pro and 6Ch AAC audio streams by outputting the signal via the analogue outputs?

Cheers

I will when I get my player. I have a bunch of WMVHD clips (mostly from Microsoft) that I am hoping have some good WMA Pro soundtracks. If not, I'll pick up a couple of those commercial WMVHD disks.

SeeMoreDigital

08-25-05, 10:41 AM

And don't forget to try some of the A/V set-up test files that can be found on my web site..... Here: -

http://www.seemoredigital.net/51_Test_Encodes/51_AV_Setup_Test_Files.html

Cheers

Dolfo

08-25-05, 10:45 AM

Will do.

T2k

08-25-05, 11:49 AM

I am hoping the non-responsive remote issue is due to poor remote control quality - I plan on programming my Harmony remote to control this thing so this wouldn't be an issue for me.

I am assuming that everyone is using the DVI video output (you probably would have bought the LP2 if DVI wasn't the video output of choice) - which audio output are you guys using? I plan on using the 6ch analog outs since I don't have a receiver that will decode WMA audio streams.

T2K - no comments yet on performance?

Yeah, there is but I went to bed around 4AM, so I was pretty tired to make a longer post. :D

I compiled a test DVD+R before I went home with all kind of of codecs and formats you can imagine, so here are my findings:

Video

Quality is very nice, especially over DVI. I'm more than pleased with WMVHD. :)

Divx OK
DivxHD OK
WMV9 OK
WMV9HD OK
MPEG2HD (HDV) OK
MPEG4 (Nero) OK

Didn't play WMV7
Didn't play WMV8 - these are big misses, Snazio! I hope it's going to be fixed!
Didn't play some ASF stuff.

Audio

Didn't play WMA9 Pro 5.1: Taxi 3's WMVHD trailer has Windows Media Audio 9 Professional 440 kbps, 48 kHz, 5.1 channel 24 bit (A/V) 2-pass CBR and no sound whatsoever. Itried changing PCM and RAW digital output format back and forth but nothing. Big miss, Snazio.
Didn't play Microsoft A-law. Playing a clip video was fine (Divx) but no audio.

Outputs

NO COMMERCIALLY DISTRIBUTED (CSS PROTECTED) DVD CAN BE PLAYED WHATSOEVER ON DVI OUTPUT.
:eek:
I'm dead serious, this is powerful stupid thing. :mad:

I was really pissed already when I saw the warning that "CSS DVD CAN BE PLAYED ONLY IN PAL/NTSC MODE" because what kind of stupid idea is this? There are PLENTY OF UPSCALING PLAYER but I tried to change the DVI output and then I figured there's no way to watch your DVD collection on this player unless you revert to component or composite, effectively defeating the purpose of this DVI-based player.

I very-very hope Snazio will fix it very-very soon. They can lose the whole product line's appeal on this stupid, literally nonexisting issue - I guess it's most likely some ill-informed legal dept's influence over at V-One, so here's an advice, Snazio: call up Samsung, Philips, Zenith, Sony, Denon, Oppo, Momitsu etc and ask them how is that their players can upscale DVDs?
In the meantime ASAP enable DVD play in DVI 480p, temporary, until you sort out your legal thoughts on this.

Network

When I was screwing up the antenna, suddenly the whole thing started spinning together with the antenna. Due to lack of special tools I spent 20 minutes with carefully removing the antenna then fixing the lousy stub and its nut then putting antenna back... very annoying.

Then I set up the wireless, "Connection Excellence" was on the display after reboot (some French native in the firmware team? :D), IP was set and - and nothing. No internet whatsoever. I couldn't even ping from my also wirelessly connected laptop. :(
Switch to DHCP - it didn't pick up. It was set to some 169.254.x.x B-class subnet, didn't find the DHCP server. No internet, nothing. I spent almost half an hour, tried every config, wireless physical layer was perfect but no TCP, nothing...
I gave up, pulled in a cable (the one came with it was too short) then it started working.

Internet

Browser starts up a bit slow but then it's pretty fast. In CSS-heavy sites it's really ugly, so don't expect a full-blown browser. Other then that it's OK, works fine.
The predefined SnazziZone Net cinemA Portal (http://www.snazzizone.com/netcinema/index.htm) (yes, its title is this weird :D) could be an ibnteresting thing if you, for example, following your login could save/store/set your bookmarks, netradios etc there but unfortunately currently it offers a very limited selection and no personalization is possible. I hope they're working on it.
WHen I entered one of favourite netradio's address, (http://dvdcenter.hu:8000/listen.pls) it didn't play, I got an error. If I opened it from my Firefox bookmarks via Net Cinema server from my laptop, it was working flawlessly. Displayed "Internet radio" then it's started, radio's usual track info was scrolling and Snazio was slieswowing my pictures from my defined photo directory. Then I went to sleep. :D

More stuff comes tonight. :cool:

PS: at the morning I turned my HT on and realized Snazio still on and plays that netradio. Cool! :D

SeeMoreDigital

08-25-05, 12:33 PM

Audio

Didn't play WMA9 Pro 5.1: Taxi 3's WMVHD trailer has Windows Media Audio 9 Professional 440 kbps, 48 kHz, 5.1 channel 24 bit (A/V) 2-pass CBR and no sound whatsoever. I tried changing PCM and RAW digital output format back and forth but nothing.Did you use the analogue (RCA/Phono) or digital (S/PDIF) audio outputs?

Cheers

SeeMoreDigital

08-25-05, 12:40 PM

Outputs

NO COMMERCIALLY DISTRIBUTED (CSS PROTECTED) DVD CAN BE PLAYED WHATSOEVER ON DVI OUTPUT.

I'm dead serious, this is powerful stupid thing.

I was really pissed already when I saw the warning that "CSS DVD CAN BE PLAYED ONLY IN PAL/NTSC MODE" because what kind of stupid idea is this? There are PLENTY OF UPSCALING PLAYER but I tried to change the DVI output and then I figured there's no way to watch your DVD collection on this player unless you revert to component or composite, effectively defeating the purpose of this DVI-based player.According to CSS regulations, you should be able to play/watch CSS protected DVD's via the DVI output.... but you should not be able to up-scale them!

Cheers

MorganB

08-25-05, 12:41 PM

Outputs

NO COMMERCIALLY DISTRIBUTED (CSS PROTECTED) DVD CAN BE PLAYED WHATSOEVER ON DVI OUTPUT.
:eek:
I'm dead serious, this is powerful stupid thing. :mad:

I was really pissed already when I saw the warning that "CSS DVD CAN BE PLAYED ONLY IN PAL/NTSC MODE" because what kind of stupid idea is this? There are PLENTY OF UPSCALING PLAYER but I tried to change the DVI output and then I figured there's no way to watch your DVD collection on this player unless you revert to component or composite, effectively defeating the purpose of this DVI-based player.

TK, what is your work around for this. I ran into this as well and I was rather shocked. I was thinking of hooking up the component video to watch commercial DVDs. I am a little unsure how to move from DVI to the component output and back. I know I could do it in the setup but clearly that is not a satisfactory way to quickly switch between the two. Would I just use the TV Mode button? (hitting it thousands of times to get it to respond twice).

I also tried to play a low res divx file over DVI. Played perfectly but the image was a postage stamp in the middle of the screen. Not sure how to get around that.

Have you found any way to bring up info about the file you are playing on the screen? As in title, remaining time, bit rate, resolution, fps? I havent.

T2k

08-25-05, 12:59 PM

Did you use the analogue (RCA/Phono) or digital (S/PDIF) audio outputs?

Cheers

Itried changing PCM and RAW digital output format back and forth

;)

T2k

08-25-05, 01:00 PM

According to CSS regulations, you should be able to play/watch CSS protected DVD's via the DVI output.... but you should not be able to up-scale them!

Cheers

Linky?
And even so, how those other mfrs, no matter small or big company, can do it?

T2k

08-25-05, 01:11 PM

TK, what is your work around for this. I ran into this as well and I was rather shocked. I was thinking of hooking up the component video to watch commercial DVDs. I am a little unsure how to move from DVI to the component output and back. I know I could do it in the setup but clearly that is not a satisfactory way to quickly switch between the two. Would I just use the TV Mode button?

There's no workaround and there shouldn't be - Snazio should fix it ASAP by enabling DVI 480p for DVDs. This is ridiculous as it is now.
In the meantime use component only, for everything. (I can't, I ran out of component inputs on my TV - that's why I bough a DVI player.)

(hitting it thousands of times to get it to respond twice).

Yeah, I agree. Remote is very crappy. If I can get home tonight in time I'll map it to my Sony RM-AV3100 remote (http://www.remotecentral.com/av3000/index12.htm) - I hope it's the crappy remote, not the unit... we'll see.

I also tried to play a low res divx file over DVI. Played perfectly but the image was a postage stamp in the middle of the screen. Not sure how to get around that.

That's the actual size.
Push bottom right corner bottom on the remote (I'm not home, I can't recall how it's named.) Switches between Actual size/Fit to screen/Full screen.

Have you found any way to bring up info about the file you are playing on the screen? As in title, remaining time, bit rate, resolution, fps? I havent.

Bottom of the left column, above the "URL" bottom, IIRC a third from the bottom, it has some "i" icon. When playing it brings up a transparent window with some basic info like file name, codec, perhaps lenght too and a timeline.
Unfortunately it's right in the middle of the screen. :(

SeeMoreDigital

08-25-05, 01:15 PM

Linky?
And even so, how those other mfrs, no matter small or big company, can do it?Because they are breaking CSS regulations!

Are you sure you have no "up-scaling" features switched on?

I tried changing PCM and RAW digital output format back and forth Okay.... you used the digital output.

Unless you have an amplifier fitted with an on-board WMA Pro (and/or AAC) decoder chip-set, you will not be able to hear 6Ch AAC or WMA audio streams via S/PDIF....

Try using the players analogue outputs..... Which is what most of us have to use when playing/listening to DVD-A and/or SACD media.

Cheers

T2k

08-25-05, 01:27 PM

Because they are breaking CSS regulations!

I highly doubt that Samsung, Sony, Denon-sized companies act like that.
What regulations? Where did you read this? Linky?

Are you sure you have no "up-scaling" features switched on?

There's no such 'feature to switch'. All you can set is the output resolution but if you have DVI res set, no DVD will be played.

Okay.... you used the digital output.

Unless you have an amplifier fitted with an on-board WMA Pro (and/or AAC) decoder chip-set, you will not be able to hear 6Ch AAC or WMA audio streams via S/PDIF....

Try using the players analogue outputs..... Which is what most of us have to use when playing/listening to DVD-A and/or SACD media.

Cheers

Wow, that's utterly and powerful retarded. WTF MS thinks when tries to sell WMV-HD for movies: people will reconnect their stuff because of their idiotic codec.
Screw them.

SeeMoreDigital

08-25-05, 02:10 PM

I highly doubt that Samsung, Sony, Denon-sized companies act like that.
What regulations? Where did you read this? Linky?You'll have to Goggle to find the up to date regulations.

Technically any manufacturer offering up-scaling features for use with copyright protected content such as DVD, whether it be via the component or DVI/HDMI connection, could lose their license to manufacture or produce players. Upscaling is only allowed if the player/device offers HDCP.

Eitherway they can be requested into supplying the necessary firmware upgrade to delete such an option!

I must say I was quite surprised to see this player being fitted with DVI output.... especially as the industry is now being forced into using HDMI with HDCP for all high-def capable devices....

Wow, that's utterly and powerful retarded. WTF MS thinks when tries to sell WMV-HD for movies: people will reconnect their stuff because of their idiotic codec.As surround sound capable codecs go WMA Pro is very new, same as 6Ch AAC or 6Ch FLAC....

You can't expect DSS amplifier manufacturers to design and build chip-sets that support every type of codec over S/PDIF.... That's why most good DSS amps are fitted with analogue inputs!

Plus, if/when Blu-ray and HD-DVD players arrive you'll find HD disc's starting to appear with new 8Ch "discrete" versions of DolbyDigital and DTS.... so you'll need a new amp for this anyway :eek:

Cheers

Dolfo

08-25-05, 02:14 PM

Wow, that's utterly and powerful retarded. WTF MS thinks when tries to sell WMV-HD for movies: people will reconnect their stuff because of their idiotic codec.
Screw them.

This was a big issue with the LinkPlayer2 - that player doesn't have the benefit of the 6ch audio outs so there is no way to get the WMA audio unless you have one of the few receivers that can decode it. This is one of the reasons that I was waiting for either the Snazio or the Zensonic.

I had hoped the player could at least play 480p via DVI, even if it couldn't upscale. It really sucks that it doesn't play at all. This will be the first big test for Snazio's Engineering Department - the faster this is fixed, the more successful they will be in selling these here in the States.

Rob79

08-25-05, 02:31 PM

I should be receiving my unit today, like T2K said if shipping works out, it is out for delivery. I look forward to receiving my unit and testing it out.

Paul_PDX

08-25-05, 02:43 PM

The LP2 currently can play downmixed 2 ch for WMA PRO 5.1 -- can the Snazio? And as seemore... keeps asking, has anyone tried the 5.1 analog outs yet (and if so for AC3, DTS, and or WMA PRO 5.1?).

As for your screen size issues -- on the LP2 and LTs the setup screen contains four screen settings -- in the main screen you pick your browser mode (sd or HD), displays resolution (eg 720p) and also pick your desired aspect ration (eg square pixel, full screen, zoom, etc). A fourth setting is under the DVD config menu for 4:3, Pan/Scan, 16:9. All of these together affect the final size different res programs and pictures end up displaying at.

DVD over DVI question? If you set your screen size if 480p and restart the Snazzi does it still refuse to play commercial dvd over DVI??

On the WMV6,7,8 issues -- the Sigma chips don't play those codecs -- so unless the server software transcodes on the fly those video types won't work.

SeeMoreDigital

08-25-05, 02:58 PM

Thanks Paul ;)

Paul_PDX

08-25-05, 03:07 PM

Another Snazio HD question --

Does the US version direct from Snazi (NTSC version not bought in Europe) play PAL disks?? If so can you try both film and video based PAL sources?

Does the region cheat posted at MPEG playcenter work for this version also?

Dolfo

08-25-05, 03:27 PM

SeeMoreDigital

08-25-05, 03:36 PM

Here are some of the things I am looking forward to testing when I finally get my player (if T2K and/or Rob79 test these before me, great):

1. 5.1 audio (WMA Pro, DTS, and AC3 at least) via 6ch analog outs
2. Playback of ripped DVD across the network (I am wondering if this player can read an IFO and playback multiple VOBs in sequence)
3. EVERY HD CLIP I CAN GEt MY HANDS ON :DWhen I had a quick look thru' the players manual it appears this player (like so many others) runs on a version of Syabas's GUI software.... So I don't think there will be any "Number 2ing"

Cheers

T2k

08-25-05, 11:57 PM

You'll have to Goggle to find the up to date regulations.

Technically any manufacturer offering up-scaling features for use with copyright protected content such as DVD, whether it be via the component or DVI/HDMI connection, could lose their license to manufacture or produce players. Upscaling is only allowed if the player/device offers HDCP.

Eitherway they can be requested into supplying the necessary firmware upgrade to delete such an option!

I must say I was quite surprised to see this player being fitted with DVI output.... especially as the industry is now being forced into using HDMI with HDCP for all high-def capable devices....

C'mon. My Momitsu V880 played videos oevr DVI without having to to change anything.

As surround sound capable codecs go WMA Pro is very new, same as 6Ch AAC or 6Ch FLAC....

You can't expect DSS amplifier manufacturers to design and build chip-sets that support every type of codec over S/PDIF.... That's why most good DSS amps are fitted with analogue inputs!

Plus, if/when Blu-ray and HD-DVD players arrive you'll find HD disc's starting to appear with new 8Ch "discrete" versions of DolbyDigital and DTS.... so you'll need a new amp for this anyway :eek:

Cheers

It doesn't matter for me as a customer. Either supply the sw encoder or attach a DD 5.1 instead of this useless crap. I'm dead serious: why bother if nothing supports it?

But hey, fine by me - I won't by a single WMV9HD movie which comes with this unplayable audio then. Screw MS, screw the whole iindustry. I am the customer, they want to sell something for me, not vica versa.

T2k

08-26-05, 12:02 AM

This was a big issue with the LinkPlayer2 - that player doesn't have the benefit of the 6ch audio outs so there is no way to get the WMA audio unless you have one of the few receivers that can decode it. This is one of the reasons that I was waiting for either the Snazio or the Zensonic.

I had hoped the player could at least play 480p via DVI, even if it couldn't upscale. It really sucks that it doesn't play at all. This will be the first big test for Snazio's Engineering Department - the faster this is fixed, the more successful they will be in selling these here in the States.

Exactly. I never thought it doesn't play any DVD at all until you go to setup, go down to output format then select component NTSC, then go down to save, then go back to main screen - and remember, each step on the screen takes 3-4 push on the button to get one click through...

FYI: it's the same under component too! You HAVE to go into menus and manually switch the resolution. This is crazy, I'm telling you. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

SeeMoreDigital

08-26-05, 06:10 AM

Hey..... just because I'm informing you how it should be.... and not how you want it to be, does not mean to say I support all these these regulations ;)

Just be thankful we still have DVD and that it's been such an incredible success. Which hopefully will take many years to be superseded by one of the proposed new high-def formats....

....Because when the new high-def formats arrive, I doubt some Linux wonder kid will be able to crack its copyright protection, so that we can watch re-compressed back-ups over our networks!

Cheers

MorganB

08-26-05, 06:13 AM

I am hoping the non-responsive remote issue is due to poor remote control quality - I plan on programming my Harmony remote to control this thing so this wouldn't be an issue for me.

Unfortunately I dont think it is the remote. When I put a commercial DVD in the drive the remote is very responsive. Can navigate menus, fast forward, reverse, pause , stop etc without any problems from the remote.

Hopefully this will be fixed with a firmware update ASAP. The player should not have left their developement bench like this.

MorganB

08-26-05, 06:19 AM

There's no workaround and there shouldn't be - Snazio should fix it ASAP by enabling DVI 480p for DVDs. This is ridiculous as it is now.
In the meantime use component only, for everything. (I can't, I ran out of component inputs on my TV - that's why I bough a DVI player.)

Well I hooked up my Snazio to component in addition to the DVI. I counted and to move from DVI 720p to " Component HD 480p" I pressed the "TV MODE" key 28 times! Thats not user friendly. I propose a on screen pop up menu that allows you to select the video output setting from a pop up list. You would validate your selection, swith the TV to the appropriate input and voila, the correct image. This avoids having to blindly navigate through MULTIPLE resolutions to get to the setting you need.

Yeah, I agree. Remote is very crappy. If I can get home tonight in time I'll map it to my Sony RM-AV3100 remote (http://www.remotecentral.com/av3000/index12.htm) - I hope it's the crappy remote, not the unit... we'll see.

I dont think its the remote. When I have a commercial DVD in the player the remote becomes very responsive.

That's the actual size.
Push bottom right corner bottom on the remote (I'm not home, I can't recall how it's named.) Switches between Actual size/Fit to screen/Full screen.

Thanks will try that! Thats the button (Zoom) I was looking for but I was so fried from the setup with the impossible remote that I just couldnt see it. Was getting a bit punchy.

Bottom of the left column, above the "URL" bottom, IIRC a third from the bottom, it has some "i" icon. When playing it brings up a transparent window with some basic info like file name, codec, perhaps lenght too and a timeline.
Unfortunately it's right in the middle of the screen. :(

Again thanks. I tried that button and it did nothing but I am sure it is because once again the remote didnt register my push. Works now.

MorganB

08-26-05, 06:39 AM

Here some bugs I've found:
1. as we all know REMOTE REMOTE REMOTE!
2. commercial DVD playback : press pause followed by play: content jumps forward a few seconds rather than starting back where it was.
3. commercial DVD playback: "Slow REV" does not go in reverse, goes forward. Also plays choppy audio while moving forward. "Slow FWD" goes forward but plays choppy audio also. There should be no audio at all. When pressing "play" from these modes, player jumps forward again.

sneals2000

08-26-05, 06:55 AM

Well I hooked up my Snazio to component in addition to the DVI. I counted and to move from DVI 720p to " Component HD 480p" I pressed the "TV MODE" key 28 times! Thats not user friendly. I propose a on screen pop up menu that allows you to select the video output setting from a pop up list. You would validate your selection, swith the TV to the appropriate input and voila, the correct image. This avoids having to blindly navigate through MULTIPLE resolutions to get to the setting you need.

Isn't the point of the TV button cycling through different output settings that you can operate it when you can't see the TV output (if the output standard is incompatible with the connected display). Wouldn't your suggestion require that you could see the player output to navigate the menu? I guess you could keep both functionalities.

MorganB

08-26-05, 07:30 AM

Isn't the point of the TV button cycling through different output settings that you can operate it when you can't see the TV output (if the output standard is incompatible with the connected display). Wouldn't your suggestion require that you could see the player output to navigate the menu? I guess you could keep both functionalities.

Yes to clarify I am suggesting that it do both. I am talking about post set up functionality.

SeeMoreDigital

08-26-05, 08:14 AM

According to the SZ-1350's manual, there are 17No possible video output settings: -

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/3758/snaziovideooutputsettings7me.gif

And here lies another problem for us PAL DVD spinners.... If the device is CSS locked (ie: does not allow up-scaling for copyright protected content), then it looks like we PAL users are stuck with the following "higher quality" options:-
Composite/S-Video/Component PAL
DVI 480P
HDTV Component 480P
Any these are not very good options... are they?

Shame there's no 576P setting (not that its covered in the CSS regulations anyway).

Cheers

MorganB

08-26-05, 08:53 AM

According to the SZ-1350's manual, there are 17No possible video output settings

I am sure I had to press the remote button 28 times because of the poor response from the remote and not because I was actually paging through 28 options.
PAL users are stuck with the following "higher quality" options:-
Composite/S-Video/Component PAL
DVI 480P
HDTV Component 480P

Are you sure DVI 480p is an option for CSS DVDs? I will have to investigate that and report back.

Dolfo

08-26-05, 09:38 AM

Are you sure DVI 480p is an option for CSS DVDs? I will have to investigate that and report back.

It's an option in the menu Screen Capture that Snazio includes in the online manual - you and T2K are the only ones (for now) who can say for sure whether it is actually there and whether it works (from what T2K was saying, it sounds like it either isn't there or it does not work - or I guess he could have missed that option).

SeeMoreDigital

08-26-05, 10:13 AM

Are you sure DVI 480p is an option for CSS DVDs? I will have to investigate that and report back.If you remember we PAL users had to wait a couple of years before we got "progressive" capable players.

I don't know for sure so I can only assume this was because there was no provision for 576P under the regulations. And although we now have "PAL progressive" it only caters for analogue video output connections not digital :eek:

Cheers

MorganB

08-26-05, 11:41 AM

It's an option in the menu Screen Capture that Snazio includes in the online manual - you and T2K are the only ones (for now) who can say for sure whether it is actually there and whether it works (from what T2K was saying, it sounds like it either isn't there or it does not work - or I guess he could have missed that option).

Sorry wasnt clear in what I mean... I mean is this an option as in will it play CSS protected DVDs via DVI when set to 480p. Didnt mean is this in the list of resolutions.

I set the player to DVI 480p and it give as CSS error saying I must use PAL / NTSC output to play the DVD. So yes DVI 480p is a setting and no you cannot play commercial DVDs via this setting.

On the upside, I streamed an entire HD .ts film over my wireless network today and it played perfectly for the duration of the film. However, the player does not go back to the main menu at the end of playback. The screen goes black and the time counter continues to go forward until you press stop.

RiDi

08-26-05, 11:56 AM

@MorganB

Nice impressions! Thanks for your first views on your homepage!

A question beside, I saw the menu of the SnaZi on your HD-Screen at home.
reading Hi-Jack's test I thought the menu would come full screen HD format
doesn't it?

Another question I ask myself is following: Why is it so necessary to
watch the SD-DVDs by DVI? By upscaling the quality looses so much
you cannot see a huge difference between analog and digital. Isn't
that so? So I think wouldn't be better to link by YUV and let do the
upscaling by LCD.

Time will come everybody has HD-content only and no one asks
for SD Playback. Perhaps SnaZio comes too early for some people?!
Why not playing SD stuff with the old player and using the hightech
box for all the funny new posibilities?! Okay, one more box but
not be better?

And third I have the opinion to say when implicit you want to
link CSS content by DVI then DeCSS and that's it! Perhaps there will be
a solution to LAN-play ripped DVD archives from harddisks. For that you
have to Decss anyway!

@everybody

Do you think the CSS Output by DVI can be solved by Firmware Update?

SeeMoreDigital

08-26-05, 12:01 PM

I set the player to DVI 480p and it give as CSS error saying I must use PAL / NTSC output to play the DVD. So yes DVI 480p is a setting and no you cannot play commercial DVDs via this setting.Oh dear... this is not good....

I wonder if you would have any more luck when spinning commercial NTSC encrypted DVD's (if there's a region free code hack for the player)?

EDIT:Do you think the CSS Output by DVI can be solved by Firmware Update?Probably... but not from the player manufacturer. Unless there not bothered about receiving flack from the CSS guys... now or in the future!

Here's what Keith Jack (of Sigma) wrote to meIf they manufacturer is not a HDCP licensee, they do not get access to the HDCP code to enable DVI/HDCP. So the digital video output (and hence the DVI output) gets disabled when playing CSS-protected DVDs.

This is in microcode so manufacturers are not capable of over-riding it through software changes. If they managed to over-ride it somehow, shipments of chips to them would be stopped.

In the future, any manufacturer who wants to fit an HDMI connector to their devices, will have to send a fully working model to the CSS guys for their approval, so they can make sure the HDCP is working correctly.

Cheers

T2k

08-26-05, 12:02 PM

It's an option in the menu Screen Capture that Snazio includes in the online manual - you and T2K are the only ones (for now) who can say for sure whether it is actually there and whether it works (from what T2K was saying, it sounds like it either isn't there or it does not work - or I guess he could have missed that option).

It doesn't work. And let me add one more thing: Snazio, when you enable the 480P optiopn, make it as an automated switch - nobody wants to go and wander in menus and submenus, enable and apply then come back, especially when DVI 480P looks really ugly, sports unreadable titles and menus on LCD TVs, let alone the crappy remote.

So please, make it automated. I'm in 720P and when I pop in a DVD, I want to watch it without any hassle by simply click on the DVD - the player should immediately switch to 480P mode and start the DVD. When I exit DVD app, player should switch back to my original resolution, according to my display settings under Setup.

Apart from enabling upconversion like everybody else does, this is the only way you can solve this thing.

PS: I must add I know linux very well and I perfectly know this is doable, only question should remain is how fast can your - most likely Syabas' - engineering team code it, test it, debug it then release it. We bought this DVD player for the DVI output - and this player doesn't play DVDs at all over DVI.
This is unacceptable.

T2k

08-26-05, 12:05 PM

Oh dear... this is not good....

I wonder if you would have any more luck when spinning commercial NTSC encrypted DVD's (if there's a region free code hack for the player)?

Cheers

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about since Wednesday.
There's no way to watch any commercial DVD unless you change to component output and NTSC/PAL display format - where most of the HD LCDs - due to their 720p or 768p native panel nature - become unreadable, really ugly.

RiDi

08-26-05, 12:12 PM

SeeMoreDigital

08-26-05, 12:17 PM

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about since Wednesday.
There's no way to watch any commercial DVD unless you change to component output and NTSC/PAL display format - where most of the HD LCDs - due to their 720p or 768p native panel nature - become unreadable, really ugly.Bummer!

SeeMoreDigital

08-26-05, 12:19 PM

T2k

08-26-05, 12:30 PM

You wrote in your first testing you cannot play WMV7 and WMV8. Is that a
basically fact now or did you try another couple of files?

Some other players with the same Sigma chipset play such files obviousely.

What do you think could it be also a problem of the sound inside the codings?
On PC sometimes I have problems with wmv playing in some players without
sound but picture or reverse.

I tried plenty of different files and none of them were played.

I'll give it another try tonight or Sunday night (I'll go upstate for kayaking on the weekend) by creating WMV7 and WMV8 videos my self (I work for an animation/postprod company ;)) but I doubt it'll work.

MorganB

08-26-05, 12:53 PM

@MorganB
Nice impressions! Thanks for your first views on your homepage!

Glad you liked it :)

A question beside, I saw the menu of the SnaZi on your HD-Screen at home. reading Hi-Jack's test I thought the menu would come full screen HD format
doesn't it?
It is full screen. Thats just the very first menu where there are only 3 options:

1. DVD
2. SnazziZone
3. Your Computer

If navigate to 2 or 3 then you have full screen info. The page you see is really full screen as well, theres just not much to it.

Another question I ask myself is following: Why is it so necessary to
watch the SD-DVDs by DVI? By upscaling the quality looses so much
you cannot see a huge difference between analog and digital. Isn't
that so? So I think wouldn't be better to link by YUV and let do the
upscaling by LCD.

I dont really care about any image quality gain I may or may not see via DVI for commercial DVD's. For me its more a matter of convenience. It is a major hassle on the Snazio to change between resolutions ( 28 pushes on the TV mode key to get to component 480p). Also I would prefer to have the component jacks open for other video sources. As it stands the Snazio is using two of my AV inputs.

Why not playing SD stuff with the old player and using the hightech
box for all the funny new posibilities?! Okay, one more box but
not be better?
Thats the whole point, I dont have room for one more box really. I wanted an all in one. Otherwise I would have gotten the SZ1310 that doesnt have a drive at all and is more compact.

Do you think the CSS Output by DVI can be solved by Firmware Update?
Dunno.

MorganB

08-26-05, 12:55 PM

Oh dear... this is not good....

I wonder if you would have any more luck when spinning commercial NTSC encrypted DVD's (if there's a region free code hack for the player)?
Actually it was an NTSC zone 1 disk that I have tested as I have already applied the region hack to my player.

T2k

08-26-05, 01:03 PM

Well said, MorganB. There are reasons we bought this player: first and foremost because it's being advertised as all-in-one DVD and HD player with DVI output.
But this is what doesn't work.

Hi-Jack

08-26-05, 01:04 PM

SeeMoreDigital

08-26-05, 01:35 PM

This post is going to be VERY temporary!!!
(i can't post it due to not having 5 posts? Sorry)

check MPC and be fast as it is going away tonight again...
Questions, join me on IRC (click the links from MPC main menu to join)Here you go mate: -

http://www.mpeg-playcenter.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5645#41710

Cheers

Dolfo

08-26-05, 01:39 PM

I think this (http://www.mpeg-playcenter.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5686#41742) is what he was referring to (I could be wrong).

Hi-Jack - Can you please share how you did that? If you would prefer, you can PM me or email me privately at ahbecerril@earthlink.net.

Dolfo

08-26-05, 01:49 PM

For some reason (work firewall maybe) I can't join the IRC chat :(

I am begging, Hi-Jack - please share your genius with us (or at least with me ;) ).

SeeMoreDigital

08-26-05, 01:51 PM

I think this (http://www.mpeg-playcenter.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5686#41742) is what he was referring to (I could be wrong). Nope I think you are correct...

Although not all pressings of this disc carried "copyright protection": -

http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/9214/harrypotter1fj.png

But I think I'll have a chat with Hi-Jack, just in case ;)

Cheers

Hi-Jack

08-26-05, 03:11 PM

It's sent to your mail
I guess this is my 5th post :-)
Do i get ADMIN status now :rolleyes:

Hi-Jack

08-26-05, 03:31 PM

Well said, MorganB. There are reasons we bought this player: first and foremost because it's being advertised as all-in-one DVD and HD player with DVI output.
But this is what doesn't work.

I guess what didn't work now does :-)
First and Formeost there's more to be used over DVI then just commercial DVD and SnaZio* specs did not state they could handle Commercial DVD. It's really those dull companies that want to protect their rights this way by limiting the use of something we pay for our own use. Hence everyone can copy a dvd and nothing of all this prevents us from doing so, it only limits playback capabilities....

Good thing that people on the scene are just as smart then those who develop such stupid things all the time. It's time for them to stop limiting customers as eventually it will be easier to just rent a movie and make a backup. It's cheaper, it's useable..

They just don't get it!!

T2k

08-26-05, 03:40 PM

Paul_PDX

08-26-05, 03:47 PM

Generally speaking I agree but also keep in mind copyright situation is a lot worse here than other parts of the world including Europe, thanks to some nice pro-Hollywood legislations, so you should be doing OK compared to me... :D

Actually Germany is way worse than here in the US. Even posessing ripping software is illegal -- here I think you have to use it or write it before it becomes a DCMA violation.

T2k

08-26-05, 05:29 PM

Actually Germany is way worse than here in the US. Even posessing ripping software is illegal -- here I think you have to use it or write it before it becomes a DCMA violation.

Here it is not illegal. This is just the perfect example of the stupidity of our legal system: I have the right to make backup copies under fair right use but anybody who tries to sell such product will be sued to death on basis of our retarded lunatic DMCA. :mad: Congrat, US legal system. :mad:

Spizz

08-26-05, 07:03 PM

The post on the forum is gone. Could someone PM the details please.

deez

08-27-05, 12:51 AM

Hmmnnn...What about playing unprotected dvd files from pc to display over dvi????

ps-you know what i mean by unprotected.....

neilt0

08-27-05, 01:36 AM

I received my 1350 on Thursday from Snazzishop UK.
I have it upscaling DVDs over DVI, but you do have to play backups with CSS removed -- so yes, you can decrypt the DVD and burn it to a DVD-/+R/RW(s) (DVDFab can split DVD9s). Or rip the DVD to a USB drive or PC and play VOBs (haven't tried that yet).
Not the most convenient thing to do if you have a large collection, but it is possible.

The other post on MPC RE: upscaling commercial DVDs has gone now, what did it say?

More thoughts (also posted on MPC):

I received my machine Thursday at about 13:00 and set it up at work to play with for about 2 hours (luckily I run a computer shop, so have a 24" 1920x1200 DVI LCD display to play with).

I then took it home and used it for about another 6 hours.

Setup at home is as follows:

Sanyo Z2 DVI projector (1280x720)
120" electric screen
Yamaha RVX-640 amp
Celestion AVF302, AVP303 front/rear/centre/sub
Denon 1910 DVI upscaling DVD player

First impressions when playing .ts files on the home system were literally jaw-dropping. Very impressive picture quality for 1080i sources.

Overall, this is a very impressive player, and the display quality for my main use (I have a large collection of .TS files) is excellent.

I liked the ease of connecting to servers, it even found a UPNP server on my network with no configuration.

Some problems/comments:

* Some .TS files playing from DVD will stutter and not be playable, even if you fast-forward in to the file. My guess is the bitrate is too high for the DVD player to handle -- reading the Hi-Jack review, it looks like the DVD drive is only 2x-4x, which just isn't good enough.
I guess I could replace the drive -- I think someone has already mentioned this (couldn't find the thread though), but I'm reluctant to do this on a new player. Anyone done it yet?
I could also put the .TS files on my home server, but I have well over 1TB, so they're not all going to fit.
When streaming over ethernet, all the .TS files played perfectly.

* There seems no way to dim or switch off the fluorescent display. In a darkened room for home cinema use, this is a limitation.
All my other components allow this.
I hope future firmware updates will resolve this.

* Support for USB drive formatting other than FAT32, even if it's a Linux format is needed -- there's really no point calling it a Hi-Def player and giving it a USB port if you can't play Hi-Def files from that port. All my drives are NTFS.

* The remote sensor, even with the WLAN off is pretty poor at picking up commands -- too directional. I haven't tried a universal remote yet.

* Can't see a way of forcing aspect ratios -- one of my WMVs plays at the wrong aspect ratio and I can't see how to anamorphically squeeze it.

* No option for DVI 1920x1200 -- I won't be using it on this monitor, but I did try it temporarily, and the picture is stretched incorrectly on a 24" LCD when you choose 1080i

Overall, I'm very happy with this player. I really bought it to play TS files over DVI, and it's the only player to do this AFAIK. The fact that it also plays DVDs is a bonus for me. They even offer a version without a DVD drive.
It walks over all the HTPC options I've tried for playing .TS or WMVHD files, and is a bargain price. If I have to switch to my 1910 now and again to play a DVD, that's OK for me.

Hi-Jack

08-27-05, 01:39 AM

The post on the forum is gone. Could someone PM the details please.

Here's the new version of the post :-)
http://www.mpeg-playcenter.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5689#41755

There's no longer a limit to playing Commercial DVD on SnaZio...
Posting the solution in any forum would be illegal off course so we can't do so
but i'm sure some friends can help you from the AVS forums to enjoy that part of
your player who where able to follow the tests conducted last night by
anonymous people :-)

Now the player if full grown, we only hope on some fixes for the remote and som playback issues and off course, a stronger antenna should not be a luxury as 1db is to small. SnaZio* is working on a 3db antenna upgrade I heard...

Elliot

08-27-05, 06:16 AM

Anybody fancy helping me out and dropping me a PM on the details mentioned above?? :rolleyes:

Elliot

08-27-05, 06:20 AM

MorganB

08-27-05, 06:24 AM

If this is not possible can someone tell me how to combine the small files into one large one??

I use this program to combine the files:

http://www.hometheatersoftware.com/stuff/NullPacketStripper/

I would assume it strips out null packets as well judging by the name.

sneals2000

08-27-05, 08:08 AM

And also.....

I received my Snazio yesterday with the intention of replacing my Roku Photobridge purely for .TS file playback, but i have a major gripe....

My HD is stored on both hard drive and DVD, and all of the films are made up of multiple .TS files, some with as many as 200 files. Now the Snazio plays them fine but has a 2 second or so gap every time the file changes with OSD pop up telling me 2/100 (for example). Please tell me there is a way to get these to playback seemlessly BTW the Roku does the above just fine....

If this is not possible can someone tell me how to combine the small files into one large one??

Desperately hoping someone can help, i was supposed to be having people round tonight for a look at it!

Have a google for HDTV2MPEG or HDTVTOMPEG. This is a bit of software primarily designed to convert TS to PS but it also allows you to source your TS from multi-part files. I"ve used it to merge multi-part .ts files into a single large .mpg file.

If there is more than one channel stream in the .ts file you will have to set the correct Video and Audio PIDs to remove the correct stream. It works fine for me with the defaults on a single stream .ts file.

Starred

08-27-05, 11:16 AM

Does the 1350 output videolevels or PC-levels when playing .TS files?

Rob79

08-27-05, 11:57 AM

Starred

08-27-05, 12:14 PM

Is it possible to alter brightness and contrast on the 1350?

Dolfo

08-27-05, 01:29 PM

Well the SZ1350 is definatly my player of choice now. It plays pretty much everything now in glourious Rez's. I watched some LOTR last night and it blows me AWAY!!!! I have tried quite a few upconverting players (HD-850/950, S97, LP2) and none can touch teh DVI port on this baby! I am using the optical out to my Reciever and it works great, but there is one small problem, when I try playing WMV9 hidef clips the videos play perfect but the sound does not play at all, as I understand it, it is because I am not using the Analog RCA on the back. Is there anyway to get sound out of this thing with those WMV9 clips with WMA pro audio? I beleive the LP2 downmixes them to stero so they get some sound atleast. Anyways other then that, and the remote it is VERY hard to find fault with this unit. If anyone can shed some light on the audio problem that would be great. Thanks :)

This whole WMA Pro issue was a HUGE deal on the LP2 and most of the people who kept their players seemed content with being able to get the downmixed stereo version of the audio. Unfortunately, it seems that Snazio didn't feel there was a need to offer the same since they offered the 6ch analog outs. For me, this is a satisfactory solution because my receiver has a 6ch audio input that I can feed it in to. In fact, it was the only solution I was willing to accept since I am not about to go out and buy a new receiver just for WMA Pro decoding capability (that and DVI are the 2 reasons I have been waiting for the Snazio or Zensonic player to be released here in the States).

For now, it would seem that there is no way for you to get audio from WMA Pro streams without using the discreet outputs - hopefully, this will be one of their first fixes (if this can even be fixed in firmware).

SeeMoreDigital

08-27-05, 01:33 PM

I am using the optical out to my Reciever and it works great, but there is one small problem, when I try playing WMV9 hidef clips the videos play perfect but the sound does not play at all, as I understand it, it is because I am not using the Analog RCA on the back. Is there anyway to get sound out of this thing with those WMV9 clips with WMA pro audio? I beleive the LP2 downmixes them to stero so they get some sound atleast. The LP2 had to down-mix to stereo, because it was the only way it could get WMA Pro audio to work at all...

But (as you probably already know), it was a compromise solution because the LP2 only offered 2No sets of stereo analogue outputs and not 1No set of 6Ch surround sound analogue outputs. Plus there's probably not enough on-board memory to offer reliable real-time 6Ch WMA Pro to 6Ch AC3 transcoding over S/PDIF.

So yes, you'll have to use the analogue outputs if you want to hear 6Ch WMA Pro and 6Ch AAC audio.

Cheers

deez

08-27-05, 02:31 PM

well as least
it is some kind of digital sound right?

SeeMoreDigital

08-27-05, 02:44 PM

well as least
it is some kind of digital sound right?I guess.... If you enjoy a compromised audio experience!

By-the-way, if anybody has one of the following WMA Pro capable DSS amps manufactured by Pioneer: -

http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/9547/pioneersdssamps8ea.gif

I would be interested to know whether WMA Pro can be passed/decoded over S/PDIF?

Cheers

Hi-Jack

08-27-05, 04:37 PM

Spizz

08-27-05, 06:09 PM

Rob79

08-27-05, 06:55 PM

Rob79- Compared to the LP2 that you have used is there any black level issues, picture overcropping issues with the Snazzio when playing .ts files? Also do you find it annoying that there is no time display given and you have to use % instead? Lastly have you tried replacing the DVD Drive in it?

I am having no black level issues over my DVI port, I have not had tons of time to test out different media sources but I am happy. I am using 1:1 pixel mapping and have no cropping issues either. The time display thing is not a huge deal to me as I am pretty sure they will address this. My main gripe was the DVI limitation but that is fixed now. For right now it is the best player out there. Though it could all change once the KISS or Zensonic is released. But for now I am very pleased with this unit. I hope this has helped >;)

deez

08-27-05, 08:56 PM

lol there is allready a way to eneble commercial dvd/playback and region free on this machine over dvi so no worrys...also how much for this unit in the us??and where to buy?

Dolfo

08-27-05, 09:55 PM

lol there is allready a way to eneble commercial dvd/playback and region free on this machine over dvi so no worrys...also how much for this unit in the us??and where to buy?

Some of us were able to get in on a pre-order (thanks, again T2K!). I paid $374 for mine (including shipping). They are supposed to be available on the SnazziShop (www.snazzishop.com) website by the end of this coming week. I am guessing the SnazziShop price will be comparable to what I paid.

Starred

08-28-05, 03:41 AM

The 1350 doesn't pass BlackerthanBlack and WTW

jriihi

08-28-05, 10:13 AM

Well i think i am going to buy one of these. Well actually 1310 version for hdtv playback from my network drive(s). Any thoughts if its good solution? :)

Hi-Jack

08-28-05, 12:12 PM

I would go for the normal player with DVD. Difference in price is slim.
Better for the future in case you want to jump brands and get it sold :-)
(There's Zensonic, KISS, Trans-Gear and some others coming so... who knows)

Roland Janus

08-28-05, 04:16 PM

Hi,

are those video outputs available at the same time, or is it necessary to switch the one currently needed on?

I'm asking because if that's working I could connect a spare 17" tft-monitor to a usally not used output (video/s-video) and use it as a display for mp3-browsing etc without reconfiguring the output when e.g. dvi should be used.

And without switching on a pj or tv...

thanks, roland

SeeMoreDigital

08-28-05, 04:41 PM

By the way.... has anybody checked to see whether the players DVI connector can pass an "analogue" video output (DVI-A) okay?

Cheers

Elliot

08-28-05, 04:57 PM

sneals2000

08-28-05, 07:14 PM

Thnaks for the info RE: combining the .TS, have most of them sorted now :)

Black level is definitely shot on the DVI out but fine with Component, there is no below black info and the levels seem to be all over the shop, does anyone n
know how to contact Snazio to report these issues, is there an official forum?

Presumably the Snazio outputs video level black rather than PC level black on its DVI outputs? (In other words black = 16, not 0, so appears a dark grey on a PC DVI screen?)

I would be disappointed if it output black=0, as this presumably would require scaling of the video data (as source MPEG2 video will be 16-235, not 0-255)

I'd expect Component to be unaffected.

JimmytheSaint

08-28-05, 07:16 PM

I have the SZ1310 and yes it outputs analogue fine over the DVI port.
I have used both the analogue HD input (using a DVI>VGA dongle) and digital DVI input on my Crystalio scaler and then onto 1080P to my PJ.
I have done some tests in comparison with the Momitsu V880N. Although the Snazio does not have custom resolutions, the image quality at the fixed resolutions seems to be a little better. The audio, however, is considerably better on the Snazio (tested coaxial output) for music.
I can't test the units dvd upscaling (except over my LAN), as I went for the non dvd model, as I have a scaler.
So far the unit has played everything I have thrown at it very well, far better than an HTPC solution I had before.
The only thing missing is support for various files such as Quicktime, Q-Pixel etc

deez

08-29-05, 01:29 AM

So the BTB and WTW issue...Is this something that can be fixed via firmware or is this a defect in the 8620 sigma chip??
And where is kris deering for the secrets testing.....?

jriihi

08-29-05, 03:09 AM

Anyone here know if SZ1310 works with linksys NSLU2 storage link (2xusb2,1x100Mbit ethernet port)? NSLU2 works with NTFS and EXT3 while snazio usb port just works only with FAT32. So i was looking that as solution to playback files without even needing computer.

TUFU

08-29-05, 04:38 AM

I also can't calibrate the brightness test patterns correctly with DVE or HIVI CAST( a similar test disk like AVIA) in Japanese model of AVLP2 with DVI .Component is OK but the DVI failed to differentiate the black bars of brightness between 0% to 5%.
Oppo971H also had same problems. But after elevating the brightness level to 5+,the problem in Oppo was gone. V880 didn't have this problem with default factory setting.
My PJ is Sanyo Z3 and I set the HDMI mode to standard(I believed this is video level).
Will the to be released DVI version of AVLP2(with JVC brand) have the same problem?

sneals2000

08-29-05, 06:16 AM

Does anyone know if the 1350 is compatible with Rhapsody DRMed music, and DVR-MS video replay? Does it use Windows Media Connect for this?

Elliot

08-29-05, 06:26 AM

This is exactly what i am seeing TUFU, does anyone know if this is fixable by Snazio??

Roland Janus

08-29-05, 03:18 PM

Come on guys, can somebody check that please?

Hi,

are those video outputs available at the same time, or is it necessary to switch the one currently needed on?

I'm asking because if that's working I could connect a spare 17" tft-monitor to a usally not used output (video/s-video) and use it as a display for mp3-browsing etc without reconfiguring the output when e.g. dvi should be used.

And without switching on a pj or tv...

thanks, roland

T2k

08-29-05, 04:07 PM

Come on guys, can somebody check that please?

Your answer is no. Only one output/resolution, the selected one is active at any given time.

T2k

08-29-05, 04:21 PM

Since we find out that posting codes is not illegal :-)
Make the SnaZio* play DVD over DVI without limitations:

Press SLW/FWD 1212
A message will show with CSS LICENSING
Now press 1 to disable it (or 0 to enable)

Credits: A dear friend in the UK called Rigero
Test Credits and Fine Tuning: Hi-Jack and MPC/AVS Forum Members
Together we're strong(er)

Enjoy
HI-Jack

PS 4 Starred: SnaZio* does not have Brightness Contrast :-)

It's working, I verified. Thanks, Jack, keep up the good work! :cool:

NOW Snazio SZ-1350 is probably the best player one can get - that being said I have to say I'm still missing important things:

- WMV8 and WMV7 didn't work for me, which is very weird - why not?
- *any* WMA Pro audio over S/PDIF/optical should be available, no matter if it's downmixed 2-ch only
- REMOTE CONRTOL is useless
- wireless doesn't work here
- using web stuff is a bugfest - ie directly entering a playlist address (like http://whateverdoamin.com:8000/playlist.pls etc) results full screen of ASCII characters with some error message on top about missing Winamp (??? it's linux, isnt't it???) but if I go to the site and THEN click on the same link from there, it's working fine, recognised as internet radio and starts playing it

T2k

08-29-05, 04:34 PM

I can't test the units dvd upscaling (except over my LAN), as I went for the non dvd model, as I have a scaler.

Yep, last night we've watched Carne tremula (Almodovar) with my wife and it was beautiful. :) Friday night I watched, Dolce vita (Fellini), one of my all-time favourites and that was also very nice.

SeeMoreDigital

08-29-05, 04:46 PM

- WMV8 and WMV7 didn't work for me, which is very weird - why not?I think it's because Sigma were only concerned with supporting Micro$ofts high-def codec... And as far as I know, the WMV9 codec does not support for WMV8 or WMV7 even in software!

- *any* WMA Pro audio over S/PDIF/optical should be available, no matter if it's downmixed 2-ch only But surely only if you have an amplifier that can decode WMA Pro streams!

Cheers

MorganB

08-29-05, 05:05 PM

Elliot

08-29-05, 05:20 PM

I think i'm seeing the DVI output issues that others have mentioned. I compared the DVI output to the component output and I can see alot more detail in the greys via component. Dark passages via DVI are completely black. Component seems a bit softer however. I also cannot get a stable signal out of DVI when set to 1080i. I have interference along the top 1/4 of the screen. I changed DVI to HDMI cables in hopes that it would help but no such luck.

Thats exactly it, no black level detail via DVI, can someone please get snazzio to sort this, its a product killer for me in my high end system :( otherwise i love it!

I don't have the issue with 1080i though with regards to the top 1/4 of the screen, this is fine on mine...

Paul_PDX

08-29-05, 05:28 PM

MorganB

08-29-05, 05:46 PM

Are you guys seeing the same Black/crush issues when watching HD material (TS/WMV) or is it only on Upscaled SD material.

ATSC HD is a different color space than NTSC SD so you could have more than BTB issues going on when watching upscaled SD.
Try a TS file on component vs on DVI does it look different on the two outputs also (also is your tvs color settings the same for your component in and for your dvi in).

I am seeing it on standard def dvds, HD .ts and upscaled Divx (all NTSC). I compared all 3 to the component inputs and component looked softer but had much better grey rendering. I cant set color for each input. Its the same settings across the board.

Roland Janus

08-29-05, 07:03 PM

Your answer is no. Only one output/resolution, the selected one is active at any given time.

thanks for the info but darn!

How easy is it to switch?
Can it be done blindly.

Hi-Jack

08-30-05, 01:04 AM

Yes, there's a TV Mode button that switches between all connectors and resolutions...

Dolfo

08-30-05, 11:36 AM

Bummer - I just found out that my sz1350 is sitting in Oakland (and has been since early Friday morning), waiting for Snazio to send some paperwork that Customs needs. I guess they forgot to include all of the paperwork when they shipped it :(

Roland Janus

08-30-05, 03:04 PM

Yes, there's a TV Mode button that switches between all connectors and resolutions...

sounds good, at least I wouldn't have to switch the regular display on to set it up to use another one.

Thanks!

MorganB

08-30-05, 03:25 PM

sounds good, at least I wouldn't have to switch the regular display on to set it up to use another one.

Thanks!

Because the remote is sluggish, switching like this can be an exercise in fustration. Hopefully this will be fixed in the future via firmware.

Dolfo

08-30-05, 04:38 PM

Because the remote is sluggish, switching like this can be an exercise in fustration. Hopefully this will be fixed in the future via firmware.

I wonder if this player has discreet codes for each video/resolution option - that would be nice for those of use with programmable remotes.

deez

08-30-05, 04:52 PM

Dolfo

08-30-05, 05:05 PM

Where in the U.S.A. is this product available?
And if not in USA then where elese to get one?
Can anyone tell me how good PQ is from PC(dvd files) to display via dvi?
I currently own the oppo and it is awesome....

They are listed on the Snazzi-Shop website (http://www.snazzishop.com/cart_netDVDHD.asp) now. It says coming soon, but allows you to add to Cart.

JimmytheSaint

08-31-05, 02:49 AM

Anyone tried playing back material with DRM. No luck on my front :confused:

SeeMoreDigital

08-31-05, 03:37 AM

Hi Jimmy,

Which DRM'd files have you tried playing?

Rob79

08-31-05, 10:23 AM

You have to install the Windows media Connect and play it through that. DRM content will not play without Windows Media Connect. I hope this has helped >;)

Gary Lightfoot

08-31-05, 12:27 PM

Hi JTS,

I forgot to ask - I know you use a Crystalio, but how good is the Snazzio's scaler on it's own? If I use it as the front end for my HTPC I'm wondering how good it's scaling/de-interlacing is going to be in comparison. Also, can it do a horizontal stretch for 2.35:1 movies, and lose the black bars (that's not critical as the projector can do it).

Thanks

Gary.

JimmytheSaint

08-31-05, 04:43 PM

Hi Gary, I tried the scaler using the DVI passthrough on the Crystalio and the image is not bad at the 720P and 1080i fixed resolutions the Snazio offers.
It appears to be able to do the required stretch by using the Zoom button on the remote. This gives you three choices: actual size, fit to screen and full size (which would eliminate the black bars for you). Best bet is to give the unit a tryout with your Optoma.

SeeMore, the files are those available on the WMVHD website and are trailers.
For some reason the Alexander trailer works perfectly (it says DRM), but the others do not, flagging up a Windows protected content message.

Rob, how does the Snazio obtain the licences for DRM media playback? The licences have been obtained and stored on my PC prior to streaming. According to the Snazio website, the unit should play DRM material.

Other than that, I really can't fault the unit. I use the Wake on LAN feature to wake up my PC and enjoy HD streaming flawlessly. It's played all of the HD content (bar above) seamlessly, even .tp files.
Now, if it could play Quicktime HD, I could watch all of the trailers available at apple's site (I can wish can't I?)

Cheers
:)

Rob79

08-31-05, 04:55 PM

The Batman Begins Trailer plays fien on my Snazio, I too have the license file on my pc, but it stores it in the same folder as the WMV file except it puts its lisence files in a sub directory. Anyone else having problems playing DRM files?

SeeMoreDigital

08-31-05, 05:04 PM

...Now, if it could play Quicktime HD, I could watch all of the trailers available at apple's site (I can wish can't I?)As far as I'm aware this player should support high-def MPEG-4/SP with AAC-LC in .MOV.... It wont however support high-def MPEG-4/AVC with AAC-LC in .MOV ;)

Cheers

Gary Lightfoot

08-31-05, 06:57 PM

Hi JST.

Sounds pretty good - if I get to bring the Optoma round for your perusal we'll be able to try it out at the same time. :)

Gary.

JimmytheSaint

09-01-05, 01:13 AM

Rob, the license backup automatically goes where it wants to go, but I'll give it another try.

Gary, no problem. Better get on the phone to Henry and I'll get onto Pizza Hut! ;)

Gary Lightfoot

09-01-05, 07:55 PM

Sounds like a plan - When's good for you? :)

Gary.

deez

09-03-05, 03:40 PM

Can this player play Terminator2 in wmhd??Over dvi thru dvd player?and can it play all wmhd dvd movies?

MacHound

09-04-05, 06:22 PM

Having just read this thread from the beginning I see lots of commentary about DVD play but virtually no reporting on how it handles MPEG2-TS streams (recorded ATSC). That's the main reason why many of us bought a LinkPlayer2. With the I-O Data box MPEG2-TS playback is very good but it's not perfect. About half of my 480i recordings play as a black screen... the time counter advances but there's no video or audio output. 1080i playback is much closer to perfect but advertisement deletions sometimes causes the player to choke.

Does the Snazzio's rewind & fast-forward work correctly through MPEG2-TS files? Does it play all MPEG2-TS streams correctly or only some of them? What's the verdict on MPEG2-TS playback with the Snazzio?

Another Achilles heel of the I-O Data box is DVDs sometimes freeze up during playback. Does Snazzio have this issue?

TUFU

09-04-05, 09:53 PM

I owned both I-O DATA AVLP2 and Buffalo LT2 with latest firmwares.
Both can easily show a windows media connect server icon in the machine while connecting to a PC with windows media connect.But both had same problems while playing WMVHD disc with DRM. That meaned a delay for seconds before the films started to play with AVLP2 showing "buffering" in the OSD. After 5-6 seconds of normal playing.both of them stopped suddenly.
Will the Snazio have same problem?

deez

09-05-05, 04:00 AM

Also, can this player fill the screen with 2:35;1 dvd's?and with no loss in video quality???

misohorny

09-05-05, 04:50 AM

Does the Snazio have a custom resolutions menu? The D3 does, so Sigma Designs have included the option in the firmware kit. For CRT projector owners it is one of the most valued features of the EM8500 (Momitsu/Brainwave v880,Yamakawa 365/375 etc) based players.

Cheers,

John

SeeMoreDigital

09-05-05, 04:53 AM

Also, can this player fill the screen with 2:35;1 dvd's?and with no loss in video quality???May I ask why you would want to do this?

The major problem with converting 2.35:1 content to 1.77:1 (16:9) is you will end up having to perform some serious cropping to the left and right hand sides of the image, so evertything looks the correct shape!

You would need to go from this: -

http://img276.imageshack.us/img276/7986/017201024x576afterarcorrection.jpg

To do this: -

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/6743/027201024x576withcropboxaftera.jpg

To end up with this: -

http://img275.imageshack.us/img275/3644/03768x432insideboxsquarepixels.jpg

And... if you have a 4:3 screen the cropping required would be even worse

Cheers

Spizz

09-05-05, 06:14 AM

Is there a problem with the black level via DVI? Do I use 0 or 7.5 ire on DVI & Component?

SeeMoreDigital

09-05-05, 07:07 AM

Is there a problem with the black level via DVI? Do I use 0 or 7.5 ire on DVI & Component?I would be most grateful if some of you guys could try the following MPEG-2/DVD .VOB "Grey Scale" test sample files with your players and report back your findings: -

NTSC 720x480 Grey Scale Test (http://81.98.148.105/Uploaded_Files/AVS_Forum_files/NTSC_720x480_Grey_Scale_Test.7z). As based on this image: -

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/240/ntsc853x480greyscaletest5no.png

PAL 720x576 Grey Scale Test (http://81.98.148.105/Uploaded_Files/AVS_Forum_files/PAL_720x576_Grey_Scale_Test.7z). As based on this image: -

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/3318/greyscaletest0166ph.png

Cheers

EDIT: Images added - so you know what you're getting (and you can test your PC monitors)

MorganB

09-05-05, 09:37 AM

I would be most grateful if some of you guys could try the following MPEG-2/DVD .VOB "Grey Scale" test sample files with your players and report back your findings: -

NTSC 720x480 Grey Scale Test (http://82.2.167.237/Uploaded_Files/AVS_Forum_files/NTSC_720x480_Grey_Scale_Test.7z)

PAL 720x480 Grey Scale Test (http://82.2.167.237/Uploaded_Files/AVS_Forum_files/PAL_720x576_Grey_Scale_Test.7z)

Cheers

Are these PC specific files? Was going to try it for you but am on a Mac...

SeeMoreDigital

09-05-05, 10:15 AM

Are these PC specific files? Was going to try it for you but am on a Mac...They are they are standard files you would find on any store bought DVD.

I have however compressed them using the 7-zip format.... Does this work with the MAC O/S or would you prefer me to use a different compression format?

Cheers

deez

09-05-05, 12:37 PM

nd i do know about enhanced dvd but even some enhanced dvd's dont fill screen...and i was just wondering if maybe this player would perform that process whatever it is called....

Wish we could get someone on here to comment who can do some extensive tests on it like Kris from secrets....

MorganB

09-05-05, 02:25 PM

They are they are standard files you would find on any store bought DVD.

I have however compressed them using the 7-zip format.... Does this work with the MAC O/S or would you prefer me to use a different compression format?

Cheers

Ah okay. Never heard of that kind of file. I found a program to decompress them so here are my results. Please keep in mind , this is my very first LCD TV (2 weeks old) and I have only done calibration by what i thought "looked good". I have only had tubes before. I have no calibration disc to calibrate the screen but hope to get one in the future. I also dont really know how to "read" these screens but am guessing that we are looking at the grey gradients. So with that said:

Component Pal and NTSC:

On top nice even "steps" between each large square
On bottom good "steps" between smaller squares until the 000 to 006 which all appear the same color.

DVI Pal and NTSC:

On top nice "steps" but squares 255 and 230 are exact same white and square 026 is lighter than 000 but not as much as it should be.

On bottom, one solid black square.

So there is a DRAMATIC difference beteen DVI and Component which I could see just with plain video content even before these tests. Thats why I stopped using the DVI.

SeeMoreDigital

09-05-05, 03:15 PM

deez

09-05-05, 03:37 PM

Well lets hope this can be fixed via firmware and is not a hardware problem that is inherent in the sigma 8620 chipset.......i myself am wanting this setup to go with my oppo, but i think i will wait and get the zensonic500...........

To SEEMOREDIGITAL:
can you answer me why some 2:35 dvd's fill screen and some dont?
I realize that the ones that do are enhanced but i have saw some that were enhanced that didnt fill screen....

SeeMoreDigital

09-05-05, 04:16 PM

To SEEMOREDIGITAL:
can you answer me why some 2:35 dvd's fill screen and some dont?
I realize that the ones that do are enhanced but i have saw some that were enhanced that didnt fill screen....When you say "enhanced" do you mean you have some 16:9 widescreen anamorphic DVD's with movie AR of 2.35:1. And the others are (4:3) standard/full frame DVD's with movie AR of 2.35:1?

Cheers

sneals2000

09-05-05, 04:33 PM

When you say "enhanced" do you mean you have some 16:9 widescreen anamorphic DVD's with movie AR of 2.35:1. And the others are (4:3) standard/full frame DVD's with movie AR of 2.35:1?

Cheers

In the US "Enhanded for Widescreen TVs" usually means that the disc contains 16:9 anamorphic video content, not 4:3 video content. It doesn't have any bearing on the aspect ratio of the active video within the 16:9 frame.

Some "Enhanced for Widescreen TV" discs are 16:9 full frame transfers of 2.35:1 etc. originated films - i.e. the original aspect ratio is NOT preserved, and instead material is cropped to allow the video to fill the screen...
HOWEVER other "Enhanced for Widescreen TV" discs contain the original film, transferred as a letterbox within a 16:9 video raster, so you get black lines top and bottom on the 16:9 video output. This means you see the whole film frame - with no cropping - but the resulting image doesn't fill the 16:9 video frame - so you still have letterbox bars.

Some people think "Enhanced for Widescreen TV" means "Will fill Widescreen TV" - it doesn't - it just means the video is 16:9 format not 4:3. (And thus there is more video resolution on a 16:9 set than if you were zooming into the 16:9 portion of a 4:3 transfer)

sneals2000

09-05-05, 04:44 PM

Is there a problem with the black level via DVI? Do I use 0 or 7.5 ire on DVI & Component?

AIUI only composite and S-video outputs should employ the NTSC-US 7.5 IRE black level set-up. Component analogue, DVI, SDI and HD-SDI interconnects, as well as MPEG2 and DV digital formats, don't use the 7.5 IRE set-up in NTSC. It should be added by the composite / s-video output stages only - and not be present on other outputs?

(NB NTSC in Japan doesn't use the 7.5 IRE black level offset, and instead black level is the same as blanking in their implementation, as is also the case for all flavours of PAL - I don't think PAL M uses it - and SECAM. This is where the original "blacker than black" video levels originated from - they were used in some broadcast areas for "keying" I believe)

The issue here is not directly related to the 7.5 IRE offset issue of NTSC composite/S-video - it is related to the different systems used to encode black level and white level.

In broadcast digital component 8 bit video (where there is no such thing as 7.5 IRE set-up), in the luminance (or RGB) channel black level is at 16, and white level at 235. Levels 0 and 255 are reserved for signalling purposes (allowing start and end of active video to be signalled etc.) 1-15 and 236-254 levels SHOULD be preserved by intermediate video equipment, rather than clipped, to allow for slightly misaligned signals, as well as over-shoot and under-shoot on non-ideal sharp edges in an analogue signal. (If these were cropped you could induce vision ringing in the analogue domain) The colour difference signals are slightly different, and are 16-240, centred around 127/128 (Might be a digit out on these - haven't worked directly with this stuff for at least 10 years - and the standards are older than that!)

PC video applications often use the different range of 0=black, 255=white (for luminance or RGB).

DVI PC displays often required 0-255, whilst HDMI and TV DVI displays SHOULD accept 16-235 inputs... The problem comes when people don't stick to these standards.

It sounds like the Snazio is clipping <16 and >235 luminance levels to 16 and 235. In theory, with a perfect input signal this shouldn't be a problem - as in a broadcast spec video signal there really shouldn't BE video levels <16 or >235 - however the world isn't perfect - and it seems there are...

However the +7.5 IRE black level offset is a red herring in this case - or it should be AIUI. However a misaligned NTSC to component converter that is feeding an MPEG2 encoder could cause active video to appear below 16 I guess, or above 235? (As could residual un-decoded chroma subcarrier in the luminance channel)

sneals2000

09-05-05, 04:48 PM

Many thanks MorganB :)

Well you've confirmed what many of us suspected. The DVI can only display "tones" between 16 to 235 not 000 to 255. Which is why the bottom block of 000 to 016 rectangles all look black and the 230 and 255 rectangles both look white.... Bummer!

That said, it sounds like you need to adjust the "component" levels slightly!

Can anybody else confirm?

Cheers

Out of interest - what sources of video have video levels outside the broadcast video standards of 16 and 235? Are these poorly mastered DVDs - or analogue stations simulcasting in MPEG2 with poorly aligned composite decoders ?

"In theory" no broadcast video should stray outside these ranges - certainly most studios and NLE suites include legalisers to ensure this. (It is easy to generate YCrCb signals out of the 16-235/16-240 spec if you convert oddball signals between colour spaces - say from 0-255 RGB to 16-235 YCrCb without properly scaling and offsetting on the way)

SeeMoreDigital

09-05-05, 05:53 PM

Hi Sneals,

To be honest I don't know what to make of the 16-235 and 000-255 situations. Like you say the 0 to 16 bands shouldn't "in theory" be there.... However, earlier today I spun the THX Optimizer samples (on the Star Wars DVD's) in my PC-DVD player I took frame grabs and here's what you get: -

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/6290/thx014qu.png

http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/3681/thx027oi.png

Ones thing for sure, it's certainly possible for the 0 to 16 bands to be seen via an component connection, so I guess this is why people expect to see the same via DVI or HDMI.... hence the "blacker-than-black" comments.

Confused... we will continue to be....

Cheers

SeeMoreDigital

09-05-05, 06:10 PM

Hi again deez,

As you can see, Sneals has provided an very detailed answer to your question!

To sum up.... No DVD with a movie AR of 2.35:1 should completely fill your 16:9 screen, there shoud always be black mattes above and below the image.

Typically the image should occupy around 68% of the screen height wise and the two mattes should occupy a total of around 32% of the screen height wise (ie: 16% above and 16% below the image).

Note: The above calculations do not allow for over-scan.

Cheers

Gary Lightfoot

09-05-05, 06:32 PM

deez

09-06-05, 12:09 AM

SMD:
Thanks a lot for all the info...and so as far as this player goes has anyone found out if it passes BTB and WTW via dvi?Over dvi and thru ethernet?

SeeMoreDigital

09-06-05, 03:50 AM

SMD:
Thanks a lot for all the info...and so as far as this player goes has anyone found out if it passes BTB and WTW via dvi?Over dvi and thru ethernet?To be honest I don't know.... I will have to test all 2No of my stand-alone DVI/HDMI devices!

But first I'll have to buy a new DVI lead and a HDMI to DVI converter... because my current DVI lead is connected from my PC to my TV and it's buried under my carpet.

In the meantime I'll ask some people over on Doom9 (with DVI/HDMI capable devices) to try my test cards and report back....

Maybe some of you guys could do the same for people here on AVS?

With regard to ethernet.... I am familiar with some systems that can pass analogue A/V over CAT 5/6 cables. And some devices that can communicate with each other using ethernet links.... But as far as I'm aware there are no display devices fitted with an ethernet input, that is used to carry digital audio and video signals.

Cheers

sneals2000

09-06-05, 07:06 AM

To be honest I don't know.... I will have to test all 2No of my stand-alone DVI/HDMI devices!

But first I'll have to buy a new DVI lead and a HDMI to DVI converter... because my current DVI lead is connected from my PC to my TV and it's buried under my carpet.

In the meantime I'll ask some people over on Doom9 (with DVI/HDMI capable devices) to try my test cards and report back....

Maybe some of you guys could do the same for people here on AVS?

With regard to ethernet.... I am familiar with some systems that can pass analogue A/V over CAT 5/6 cables. And some devices that can communicate with each other using ethernet links.... But as far as I'm aware there are no display devices fitted with an ethernet input, that is used to carry digital audio and video signals.

Cheers

I think some projectors aimed at corporate data environments now include 10base100 and 11b or 11g wireless network interfaces - but I don't know what format is used to carry picture information on this. It could be some plug-in for Powerpoint rather than a video format I guess?

sneals2000

09-06-05, 07:20 AM

Sneals,

Great post which I found very informative! I was going to answer your question regarding transfers that contain BTB or WTW level deliberately encoded and give the THX Optomode as a prime example but SMD beat me to it. :) It seems that the Optimode is designed for the disk it's on and often contains 'illegal' data, but if you calibrate using the Optimode for the disk it's on, then you're seeing the DVD as the authors intended. Bit of a bugger as in theory you should then recalibrate your display afterwards to normal video levels.

There are some older posts now in the archive here where I believe it was Stacy Spears who showed various images from DVD transfers which highlighted (in white IIRC) specifically the BTB data below D16. It seems that more transfers than we imaging contain this info even though in theory we shouldn't be able to see it if we calibrate the displays for just 16 to 235 (i.e using Avia).

ChrisWiggles has an interesting link here that some may find useful:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4969789#post4969789

Gary.

Aaaaghhh... What's the point in having standards?!?!

I guess that increasingly DVD mastering is now a data-shuffling process rather than a broadcast video process, and less care is taken on following video standards in the production chain.

I can also see a "it improves the quality because we're using more levels to encode the luminance" argument - though I think the "we're breaking international video standards" argument should still be stronger... The presence of the ability to cope with BTB and WTW is purely to allow for slightly misaligned sources, and edge undershoot and overshoot not to be clipped on analogue sources.

I don't know if it is common for telecine suites to legalise their outputs or not - but I would imagine a digital telecine recording onto digital tape and passed through a digital grade would not have lots of active video in the illegal signal areas? (PC/Mac mastered menus - which could easily have 0-255 RGB levels in their source I can readily understand!)

I'd be interested to know - in general :

1. If component analogue video is usually derived from the 1-254 range (with 16 still at blanking/black, and 1-15 drifting below blanking/black into sync level range, and whether 236-254 take the video level above 700mV)

2. If the DVI/HDMI outputs on video gear clip 1-15 to 16 and 236-254 to 135 (and similarly for analogue component). It would be interesting to know if they implement this in the way a proper legaliser would do (to try and avoid hue changes which are more visible than saturation)

(If you imagine an out of spec R-Y signal being clipped, but a corresponding B-Y signal that starts off legal not being touched, then the clipping will cause a hue-angle change if you don't handle it correctly, and also scale the already legal B-Y in a complementary manner - causing a saturation reduction and loss of detail, not a hue-change?)

3. Or if the lack of BTB and WTW is actually a function of some HDMI and Video DVI inputs instead...

I can imagine that any overlap with the PC video world is horrendous - after all getting PC software to cope with non-square 4:3 and 16:9 standard def video is hard enough, getting interline flicker removal correctly implemented on PC video software is pretty difficult, and don't get me started on the continual use of the incorrect pixel aspect ratios in 4:3 and 16:9 SD video.

(For the record 720x480 and 720x576 are NOT the sample structures for 4:3 or 16:9 video - if you assume they are your pictures will be the wrong shape. In 50Hz land 702x576 is the 4:3/16:9 sample area, the extra 9x576 strips either side make the image wider and avoid edge truncation on analogue sources that are less than perfect... More an issue with analogue video sources - like most broadcast TV cameras in studios and OBs - which still use analogue triax - for example - and if you look at SD or HD studio production you can often see different cameras are less than perfectly timed)

sneals2000

09-06-05, 07:32 AM

ChrisWiggles has an interesting link here that some may find useful:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4969789#post4969789

Gary.

Great post you linked to there Gary. I think the issue with <16 and >235 is the difference between "lab" and "real world" conditions. I think there are also issues in different bits of broadcast video generation kit as to whether they allow <16 >235 video to be generated. (I'm thinking of cameras, A/D converters, graphics devices etc., rather than VTRs which are merely replaying material produced on other gear)

Gary Lightfoot

09-06-05, 08:00 AM

I can't answer all your questions unfortunately,. because I'm just an enthusiast who's trying to learn this stuff, but I do agree that if THX is using BTB and WTW it does make a mokery of standards and I don't understand why they're doing it - after all, THX is meant to be a quality standard so the Optimode seems to almsot fly in the face of it all. I seem to remember someone doing a capture of the Optimode and found that there were two levels below D16. I might try it myself and see what I find....

Chris has been very helpful on the digital forums (as have others and I include yourself), but that link can be very useful for us enthusiasts so we can try to get our head around what's going on and hopefully make some improvements in our set-ups.

I think with digital displays it's probably better to keep to >16 < 235 as artefacts can be made visible if we try to display below D16, but CRTs tend to be far more forgiving and smooth out any noise that may be there.

Gary.

T2k

09-06-05, 11:04 AM

Also, can this player fill the screen with 2:35;1 dvd's?and with no loss in video quality???

There's no quality loss involved.

However there'll be quantitative loss, of course, due to the essential cropping.

PS: Bah, I need another cafe first, it seems - MorganB's excellent explanation was just two posts below. :D

T2k

09-06-05, 11:19 AM

Having just read this thread from the beginning I see lots of commentary about DVD play but virtually no reporting on how it handles MPEG2-TS streams (recorded ATSC). That's the main reason why many of us bought a LinkPlayer2. With the I-O Data box MPEG2-TS playback is very good but it's not perfect. About half of my 480i recordings play as a black screen... the time counter advances but there's no video or audio output. 1080i playback is much closer to perfect but advertisement deletions sometimes causes the player to choke.

Does the Snazzio's rewind & fast-forward work correctly through MPEG2-TS files? Does it play all MPEG2-TS streams correctly or only some of them? What's the verdict on MPEG2-TS playback with the Snazzio?

As I wrote earlier, even 25 Mbit MP@H-1440 TS (HDV) plays back fine on Snazio, so I can't see any reason why a 19Mbit MP@HL TS (ATSC) wouldn't be fine. I haven't tried FF or REW, though.

SeeMoreDigital

09-06-05, 12:41 PM

Okay, earlier today I hooked up my ADS Media-Link to my TV via DVI and fed it with my PAL and NTSC "grey scale" and full colour test cards.

Like many devices the ADS uses a variant of Syabas's set-up software, which in my case offers the following output options for DVI: - DVI 480p
DVI 720p
DVI 1080i
DVI 640x480
DVI 800x600
DVI 1024x768
DVI 852x480 (Plasma TV)I selected DVI 1024x768 and obtained a perfectly centralised and scaled image: -

http://img323.imageshack.us/img323/8846/adsmedialinkoverdviib0jw.jpg

The "grey scale" test displayed all bands from 000 to 255.

Cheers

MacHound

09-06-05, 07:30 PM

As I wrote earlier, even 25 Mbit MP@H-1440 TS (HDV) plays back fine on Snazio, so I can't see any reason why a 19Mbit MP@HL TS (ATSC) wouldn't be fine. I haven't tried FF or REW, though.
The problem we've encountered on the I-O Data box isn't that the LinkPlayer2 can't handle bitrates up to 25 MBPS reasonably well. It's firmware issues that make playback less than reliable. Most problems I've had are with 480i content, not 1080i. Half of my 480i MPEG2-TS files play as a black screen. Fast-forwarding and rewinding has been especially troublesome since the LinkPlayer2 was released. The situation is getting better, but there continues to be situations where pushing the rewind button puts you a couple of minutes forward in the stream or causes a freeze that requires the stop button. These problems are especially bad with DivX streams (so I read -- I haven't tried it myself).

I expect Snazzio's box will suffer from many of the same type of growing pains. We're just not hearing about the problems due to all the discussion of WTW and BTB techie stuff here.

By the way, I'm not unhappy with my I-O Data player. I'd just like to see faster progress in improving playback reliability. They're working on it... just got to be more patient.

deez

09-06-05, 07:35 PM

SMD:

Is that a z500 under that plasma?
How do you have that?
also can you please run a full set of tests on it and report back, chop,chop....lol

sneals2000

09-06-05, 08:10 PM

SMD:

Is that a z500 under that plasma?
How do you have that?
also can you please run a full set of tests on it and report back, chop,chop....lol

I was wondering the same thing?! (Maybe SMD has signed an NDA to get it!)

chuna

09-06-05, 10:22 PM

Indeed SMD does have a Z500 that he is currently testing for us. I am sure he may share some info on the unit but due to the NDA, he cant share everything :)

deez

09-06-05, 10:40 PM

haha...good old chuna to ruin it for us...jk...anyway can he at least comment on the pq?BTB and WTW?

SeeMoreDigital

09-07-05, 03:31 AM

Oh bugger....

In my excitement to test the DVI capabilities/properties of the ADS Media-Link I left the Z500 on view :eek:

As Chuna has already mentioned I am unable to talk about the player yet. Despite the NDA agreement I've signed I have been placed in a position of trust which I take very seriously. So please don't e-mail or PM me with your questions about it as they WILL go unanswered.

The only thing I will say is, the Z500 looks much prettier in real life than it does in its official photographs. Far sexier than similar players sporting Sigma's EM8620L chip-set..... So to all those who doubted the Z500 was ever going to be launched.... What do you think now?

Cheers everyone

Spizz

09-07-05, 04:56 AM

he cant share everything

But he can share some things :)

Just saw that the Z500 will support NTFS off the USB 2.0 ports which will save me using a Server for my Snazzio as there is no more 4GB limitation.

T2k

09-07-05, 11:43 AM

SeeMoreDigital

09-07-05, 12:31 PM

I think DVI is missing - me no fan of HDMI. :p Well I'm sorry to say we'll all have to get used to HDMI with HDCP, whether we like it or not!

More and more A/V equiment manufacturers will be "encouraged" to fit HDMI (with HDCP) instead of DVI.... So much so in-fact, we'll be seeing it on our video cards very soon :eek:

Cheers

T2k

09-07-05, 12:32 PM

But he can share some things :)

Just saw that the Z500 will support NTFS off the USB 2.0 ports which will save me using a Server for my Snazzio as there is no more 4GB limitation.

Well, I have yet to see anything bigger than 4 gigs. ;) If I dump a DVD, that means few 2 gigs VOB files. If I use something else, that's some MPEG4 stuff which means half or less the filesize, so a movie is usually not bigger than 1-2 gig.
In case of my fav HD res, 720p, a really HQ will be higher but so far I couldn't find any download place for such movies. :)

T2k

09-07-05, 12:35 PM

Well I'm sorry to say we'll all have to get used to HDMI with HDCP, whether we like it or not!

That's pretty optimistic... I bet it's still one-digit percentage of all the consumer electronics. ;)

More and more A/V equiment manufacturers will be "encouraged" to fit HDMI (with HDCP) instead of DVI.... So much so in-fact, we'll be seeing it on our video cards very soon :eek:

Cheers

Depends on what "very soon" means. Considering that an average lifecycle of a VGA is minimum 2-3 years, it definitely woin't be the standard for long years to come, no matter Vista will offer it or not.

SeeMoreDigital

09-07-05, 02:45 PM

Depends on what "very soon" means. Considering that an average lifecycle of a VGA is minimum 2-3 years, it definitely woin't be the standard for long years to come, no matter Vista will offer it or not.Here's what reported by Doom9 on his "News" page, dated Aug 26thLast but not least, GFX card makers ATI and nVidia are gearing up for the DRM future and have released reference cards of their latest models with a HDMI interface (that's the digital interface you can't get without DRM, it also transfers audio so it's practical but restrictive). So even while you could use an adapter and potentially connect to your DVI capable screen, you can bet good money on the fact that those signals will still be encrypted and unless your screen supports HDCP, your screen will remain blank. And how many PC screens are there that support HDCP? A worrying prospect indeed :eek:

Cheers

T2k

09-07-05, 06:26 PM

Here's what reported by Doom9 on his "News" page, dated Aug 26th A worrying prospect indeed :eek:

Cheers

I knew about this for a while now - read more here http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/stream/output_protect.mspx and here http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/winhec/tracks2005/w05_mediapcarch.mspx

That's why I think we have a few more years to figure out what to do with this open attack on our fair use rights.

If nothing will be done to prevent this, I'll refuse this upgrade and I'll switch to linux when it becomes mandatory ever enforced and I'll urge all of my friends who come to me for advice on regular basis to do the same.

MacHound

09-09-05, 06:17 PM

If nothing will be done to prevent this, I'll refuse this upgrade and I'll switch to linux when it becomes mandatory ever enforced and I'll urge all of my friends who come to me for advice on regular basis to do the same.
Unfortunately what drives a large segment of the computer industry is enterprise & IS department buying decisions. It will be interesting to see whether large corporations with thousands of PCs and tens of millions of $$$ invested in their current Windows based products will change over to linux when HDCP is rolled out. I have my doubts about that. If the high price of buying and supporting Windows in this worm-infested, spyware-ridden world hasn't convinced enterprise to make the switch, then a change in the video architecture doesn't seem likely to have that effect either. On the other hand, maybe it'll be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

scwheeler

09-10-05, 04:57 PM

Waiting for mine to be delivered, hope Snazzishop doesn't take too much longer! As i'm not a fan of a million cables running to my PJ is there any way to put the signal from sky through it and out the dvi cable. (wondering about streaming through pc?)

Spizz

09-11-05, 08:20 AM

I can't win with my Snazzio SZ1350.

Playing back .ts files this is my experience going into a Marantz VP-12S3 which allows me to choice between 7.5 or 0 IRE.

1080i via Component gives me great black detail but introduces noise into the picture.

1080i via DVI gives me a noise free picture but is lacking in black detail as has been mentioned in the previous posts.

Can this problem be rectified or am I better of waiting for the Zensonic Z500 or JVC LP2?

Spero D.

Elliot

09-11-05, 09:43 AM

deez

09-11-05, 06:16 PM

well screw this player then ill go for the zensonic

Dolfo

09-12-05, 11:29 AM

Well, I finally got my Snazio on 9/3 - about an hour before leaving on vacation. Oh well, I had a lot of time this weekend to play with it. For some reason, my experience hasn't been quite as good as what others have reported.

My setup:
Snazio connected to Sony GWIII via DVI 720p
Snazio wired to wireless router (PC sits across the room)
Snazio connected to Yamaha receiver with both 6ch and Optical audio
Snazio server used on the PC (haven't tried any other UPnP servers yet)

Material served from PC:
- Viewing .ts SD material (TV shows that I got from Bot Torrent) works like a charm.
- Viewing any type of HD material causes the player to re-buffer every 3-4 seconds, making it pretty much unwatchable (I figured this would be the case because of the wireless connection between the PC and the router and didn't have high expectations here)
- Viewing DVD Rips gave pretty much the same results as viewing HD material (this was kinda surprising - I was expecting this to work much better)

Material played from DVD:
- Thanks to HiJack, standard DVDs play fine and look beautiful
- I haven't been able to figure out how to get DRM-protected WMV-HD disks to play with Media Connect
- Haven't tried much else yet

Material played from USB2.0 HD:
- HD .ts clips play sporadically (1-2 seconds of play, then black screen for a few seconds, then play for a second, etc.). This was extremely disappointing. I thought it was my Hard Drive at first - I bought a new WD 160GB external drive and got the same exact results. Once I switched the video mode to DVI 480p, everything worked fine. I am thinking this should be something they can fix in one of their FW updates - we'll see.
- Unprotected HD WMV clips play just fine and are beautiful!
- Ripped DVDs play fine - one VOB at a time (we all expected this). You should have seen the look on my Wife's face when I explained to her that we had to watch a movie in 5 separate parts (I ripped to 1GB VOBs). Is IFO handling REALLY that difficult?

Since I have been actively monitoring the status of the LP2 since TUFU first bought it, I was expecting a great deal of growing pains. As bad as my experience sounds, I do believe that this player is getting off to a decent start - a lot of the same bugs that the LP2 started with, but more flexibility to handle those bugs (especially with the 6ch audio outs). My hope is that Snazzi will be as attentive to their customer's needs/wants as IODATA has been - we'll see how long it takes them to address some of our concerns with FirmWare updates.

Roland Janus

09-12-05, 11:29 AM

well screw this player then ill go for the zensonic

which is now announced for how long?

Half a year?

I hate those vaporware-things...

Can't they just give a truthful statement about availability??

Dolfo

09-12-05, 11:36 AM

which is now announced for how long?

Half a year?

I hate those vaporware-things...

Can't they just give a truthful statement about availability??

It has been announced for quite a while, but they have always estimated a Sept/Oct release. If we don't see it by Dec, then we can call it vaporware.

bluesheep

09-12-05, 11:49 AM

SeeMoreDigital

09-12-05, 11:52 AM

I hate those vaporware-things...

Can't they just give a truthful statement about availability??They've had a lot of problems obtaining CSS approval for the HDMI (with HDCP) output. There have also been working out certain chip-set issues with Sigma (issues that are yet to be resolved with other players fitted with the same chip-set).

Designing and building a player from the ground up has been a totally new for Zensonic and the work involved has caught them by surprise in a few unforeseen areas during the development stage.

That said, far from shying away from their potential customers questions (and criticisms) they have had their own Z500 forum (http://www.z500series.com/forum/index.php?) running for many months now.... so it's not they are afraid at communicating. Which I think is a very positive long term business attitude to have...

MorganB

09-12-05, 01:37 PM

I think a great many people are are holding their breath waiting to see how good Snazzi's support and firmware releases will be.

As I've siad before, It would be good if Snazzi used a forum like Iodata who, have thus far proved to be far and away the best manufacturer for support.

Snazzio, please don't keep us waiting too long :eek:

I sent two emails to two different snazio support email addresses, one that was given to me as a reference from the guy that sold me the player at the snazzishop.co.uk. The mails were sent on August 26th and have yet to receive a reply. Disappointing.

T2k

09-12-05, 04:09 PM

I sent two emails to two different snazio support email addresses, one that was given to me as a reference from the guy that sold me the player at the snazzishop.co.uk. The mails were sent on August 26th and have yet to receive a reply. Disappointing.

Dunno, all of my emails were replied within 24-48 hours usually.

Dolfo: TS plays fine here, with no hiccups whatsoever. Same goes for WMVHD, minus the missing WMA Pro multichannel downmix. What do you mean under DVD rips? I played SVCD, MPEG2, everything and I never had buffering or any problem you wrote about. SOme files didn't have video or not played at all (WMV7/WMV8 typically) but if it played something, there wasn't any problem.

deez

09-12-05, 04:17 PM

Dolfo

09-12-05, 04:39 PM

Dunno, all of my emails were replied within 24-48 hours usually.

Dolfo: TS plays fine here, with no hiccups whatsoever. Same goes for WMVHD, minus the missing WMA Pro multichannel downmix. What do you mean under DVD rips? I played SVCD, MPEG2, everything and I never had buffering or any problem you wrote about. SOme files didn't have video or not played at all (WMV7/WMV8 typically) but if it played something, there wasn't any problem.

Low bitrate TS plays fine for me - it's the higher bitrate stuff (720p and 1080i) that I am seeing problems with. If you get a chance, try downloading the sample clips from here (http://www.atmorgen.com) (if you haven't already) and let me know how they work.

DVD Rips are DVDs that I ripped to my hard drive. I am thinking that the buffering problem is because I am streaming wirelessly from the PC to the router and then wired from the router to the Snazio. This may actually perform better if I switch to the wireless connection between the Snazio and the router (the wired connection may be fooling the Snazio into expecting LAN-type latencies). I will try that tonight.

Roland Janus

09-12-05, 05:35 PM

It has been announced for quite a while, but they have always estimated a Sept/Oct release. If we don't see it by Dec, then we can call it vaporware.

you're just confirming what I wrote.

I found articles about that thing dated beginning of that year. Including a release date for then.

JimmytheSaint

09-12-05, 05:42 PM

Low bitrate TS plays fine for me - it's the higher bitrate stuff (720p and 1080i) that I am seeing problems with. If you get a chance, try downloading the sample clips from here (http://www.atmorgen.com) (if you haven't already) and let me know how they work.

I have those films and considerably more stored on my hard drives, in the same .ts format and have had NO issues with playback, or skipping, or jumping to a segment (whereas my very powerful PC freezes) when running a wired LAN to my Snazio SZ1310!! I was even more surprised when it smoothly played back some HD .m2t files, that made my codec rich PC stutter!
Colour me impressed. Don't know why you are having problems. :confused:

Roland Janus

09-12-05, 05:49 PM

They've had a lot of problems obtaining CSS approval for the HDMI (with HDCP) output. There have also been working out certain chip-set issues with Sigma (issues that are yet to be resolved with other players fitted with the same chip-set).

Designing and building a player from the ground up has been a totally new for Zensonic and the work involved has caught them by surprise in a few unforeseen areas during the development stage.

That said, far from shying away from their potential customers questions (and criticisms) they have had their own Z500 forum (http://www.z500series.com/forum/index.php?) running for many months now.... so it's not they are afraid at communicating. Which I think is a very positive long term business attitude to have...

Exactly: no clue how big the job is, but promising anyway some very unrealistic dates. Like Kiss and others... Actually almost everybody else.

And if that isn't enough, almost all devices have so many bugs they shouldn't be gone out in the first place. But we are all guinea pigs here.

And anyway: If there is one out looking almost usuable I'm gonna buy it... :o

The snazio looked promising but it's also supposed to be a replacement for my current dvd-only-player, but it looks like as if the DVD-part isn't good enough (BTB,WTW: -> guinea pigs).

There are other cheap dvd-players beeing really good as player (Neuneo for example) but miss all other features. But those networked players can't catch on to those, right? picture-quality-wise

anybody did a comparison between one of those cheap but really good china players and the snazzio?

I mean for me it's not just the network-stuff which is important. I need to feed it to my soon-to-have new video-scaler. But what is it good for if the picture to the scaler can be beaten by a half-the price stand-alone player?

Can it??

JimmytheSaint

09-12-05, 06:32 PM

Roland Janus

09-12-05, 06:37 PM

I'm feeding the 1080i film stream into a Crystalio scaler which in turn upscales the picture to 1080P. None of these cheap dvd players can match a dedicated (recent) scaler. Most (including the Snazio) only offer fixed rez upscaling to 1280 x 720 etc Your scaler should be able to correctly match your display. The Momitsu V880N had a custom rez which was very good for the money.
The 720P and 1080i are still fairly good on the Snazio, but lack the quality from a scaler.

I'm not refering to the quality of the scaling within the player. I'm mean the quality of the picture itself.

I don't think that the unprocessed picture of all players is the same, right?

So, for dvd's what do you use to feed it into the crystalio?

unprocessed signals, right?

T2k

09-12-05, 08:28 PM

Thats exactly what i mean..i am frustrated at waiting for the z500,but i feel totaly comfortable with buying this player when it is released (unlike the snazzio 1350)because of the communication on thier forums.....even if the z500 has some problems i would be totally confident at resolution of any problems and constant communication of those solutions...to me ,when dealing with these "internet only" players that communication/support is the biggest selling point besides performance of that equiptment.

Well, I prefer the other way: promise nothing and deliver a lot. Exactly as happened in case of this Snazio.

I hate empty promises - promises are free, don't cost anything but some 'html'.
Real delivery requires more.

Also it's pretty hard to play anything on promises for 9 months now (ie Kiss), as opposed to playing things on my Snazio for weeks now. :p

T2k

09-12-05, 10:50 PM

I can't see my last post... :(

deez

09-12-05, 10:57 PM

LOL

For your information the z500 is not vaporware please see post #148 it is sitting in seemoredigital's house right now......he is testing it for chuna.....

PS- look under plasma...

T2k

09-12-05, 11:34 PM

Wow, now it's arrived. :eek:

T2k

09-12-05, 11:36 PM

LOL

For your information the z500 is not vaporware please see post #148 it is sitting in seemoredigital's house right now......he is testing it for chuna.....

PS- look under plasma...

FYI: my Snazio is sitting on my shelf - how about your Zensonic? :p ;)

As long as it's not available, it's vaporware. I've seen many product in test unit form which never been released as retail/OEM product.

chuna

09-13-05, 12:45 AM

Okay T2K it is vaporware for now. When it is released to the market you can change that to realware ok? Happy?

Companies like IO Data, Snazzio etc pay $$ to a middleware company that developes the software (ala Syabas) and the unit is readily available which is great. Only problem is if there are issues they are at Syabas's mercy to fix those bugs not the OEM itself.

In our case we are developing the middleware on our own, so whatever the issues we can look into it and get it fixed without relying on a 3rd party. This is the major differences between the units. The chipsets are identical. As a result, it is taking a bit more time for development than getting software off the shelf and customizing things like the GUI etc.

Having said that, those units are good and worth what you pay for. So enjoy that. And you are right we shouldnt have announced it way back when we werent ready but we have learnt from that mistake now and will only announce when we know we can deliver a unit within that time frame in the future.

Spizz

09-13-05, 01:00 AM

chuna- Will the Zensonic 500 pass BTB and WTW via HDMI which is currently my main problem via DVI with my Snazzio Z1350?

JimmytheSaint

09-13-05, 01:11 AM

I'm not refering to the quality of the scaling within the player. I'm mean the quality of the picture itself.

I don't think that the unprocessed picture of all players is the same, right?

So, for dvd's what do you use to feed it into the crystalio?

unprocessed signals, right?

Yes, 480i and 576i respectively, over SDi.

JimmytheSaint

09-13-05, 01:21 AM

deez

09-13-05, 01:54 AM

Wevll in my opinion if the player doesnt have support than it is not worth the money...also the video performance is subpar as well to me if it does not pass BTB or WTW.....I dont care how many ts files you can play with it.....

PS- Only unit i own now is the oppo which had great support and it performs beautifully.....94/100 at secrets...

SeeMoreDigital

09-13-05, 07:16 AM

Hi guys,

I will do my best to answer some of your questions but please bear in mind that the player is still under development and that not all questions can be answered yet.

As it would be unfair to talk about the Z500 in this thread, can you please confine your questions to the Zensonic Z500 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=482136&page=7&pp=30) thread.

Cheers

Roland Janus

09-13-05, 07:30 AM

BTW: If the player will be region locked and can't be changed it's no use for me too.

So, I don't care if it's officially region free as long as it can be set to be region free... :D

How about that?

SeeMoreDigital

09-13-05, 09:33 AM

Starred

09-13-05, 09:37 AM

Was anyone able to play the WMVHD version of "Transporter" succesfuly?

SeeMoreDigital

09-13-05, 09:46 AM

Was anyone able to play the WMVHD version of "Transporter" succesfuly?I'm not familiar with this.... Can you provide more information?

Cheers

Starred

09-13-05, 09:51 AM

I'm not familiar with this.... Can you provide more information?

Cheers

The 1350 plays .TS files quite good, but is having problems with some of the HD movies in Microsofts WMV file format, for instance the movie "Transporter"

SeeMoreDigital

09-13-05, 10:32 AM

The 1350 plays .TS files quite good, but is having problems with some of the HD movies in Microsofts WMV file format, for instance the movie "Transporter"Is this movie is available on an HD WMV DVD or available via a legal download link?

Cheers

Roland Janus

09-13-05, 11:18 AM

As far as I'm aware Roland, no reputable stand-alone player manufacturer can officially distribute "region free" devices. Such an activity is a clear violation of CSS (and other) regulations and could result in a manufacturer loosing their licence to fabricate players or deal with various partners.

Of course what happens to a device after it's left the manufacturer, is (at the present time) out of their control. But it sounds as though this will be changing soon!

Cheers

I must assume that if the code for region free gets into the wild after a while that it can't just happen... Way to many combinations to just find that by coincidence... So, the company must have something to do with it, don't you think?

I don't care "offcialy"... as long as it does. :cool:

But you're saying there is not gonna be a region free version, but will it leak??? :D

The snazzio can be unlocked now, so if the z500 can't be somehow it's no use.
I don't plan to buy two players...

region coding is stupid anyway. more and more dvd's are released so closely together for all regions.

SeeMoreDigital

09-13-05, 11:50 AM

Dolfo

09-13-05, 01:45 PM

I have those films and considerably more stored on my hard drives, in the same .ts format and have had NO issues with playback, or skipping, or jumping to a segment (whereas my very powerful PC freezes) when running a wired LAN to my Snazio SZ1310!! I was even more surprised when it smoothly played back some HD .m2t files, that made my codec rich PC stutter!
Colour me impressed. Don't know why you are having problems. :confused:

Well, I was able to play .ts HD movies (on a USB2.0 hard drive connected to the front of the Snazio) using Component 720p with no problem, but still can't get DVI 720p to play the same movies/clips. I am going to try a new USB cable (the one I have been using is rated for USB2.0, but I'm not sure it's rated for High-Speed USB2.0, though I wouldn't expect it to matter since it works with component 720p) and a new DVI cable to see if either of these are the problem.

SeeMoreDigital

09-13-05, 02:30 PM

... I am going to try a new USB cable (the one I have been using is rated for USB2.0, but I'm not sure it's rated for High-Speed USB2.0, though I wouldn't expect it to matter since it works with component 720p) and a new DVI cable to see if either of these are the problem.If you can already play and display 720p content via component I fail to see how buying another USB cable is going to improve your situation....

And people, please don't be fooled into thinking a "USB2.0" cable is somehow better than a "USB1.1" cable either. Provided your USB cable is not one if those really skinny affairs, it wont make a hoot of difference!

The situation can be a little different with DVI cables, because unlike HDMI, some DVI cables are able to carry analogue video signals too..... Some of you may have already noticed that HDMI cables are quite a bit slimmer than their DVI counterparts despite the fact HDMI can carry audio data too.

So before buying an new DVI cable, ask yourself if you need it to include an analogue portion too..... Probably not!

Cheers

Dolfo

09-13-05, 05:20 PM

And people, please don't be fooled into thinking a "USB2.0" cable is somehow better than a "USB1.1" cable either. Provided your USB cable is not one if those really skinny affairs, it wont make a hoot of difference!

A standard USB2.0 cable and a standard USB1.1 cable may very well be the same, but "High-Speed" USB 2.0 cables are REQUIRED to have extra shielding and such to help reduce the BER at the higher bitrates while standard USB 2.0 and USB 1.1 cables do not have that requirement. As I mentioned, I don't really expect this to make much (if any) difference, but it's worth a few bucks to try it. Worse case - I end up with an extra USB cable at home ;)

T2k

09-13-05, 10:15 PM

Okay T2K it is vaporware for now. When it is released to the market you can change that to realware ok? Happy?

FYI: I was happy already. I merely pointed out how ridiculous thing is to claim it's much better to have a still vaporware product with extensive promises from its vendor than an actual one on your shelf, working fine whatever you bough it for, with room for improvement. Capisce?

Companies like IO Data, Snazzio etc pay $$ to a middleware company that developes the software (ala Syabas) and the unit is readily available which is great. Only problem is if there are issues they are at Syabas's mercy to fix those bugs not the OEM itself.

In our case we are developing the middleware on our own, so whatever the issues we can look into it and get it fixed without relying on a 3rd party. This is the major differences between the units. The chipsets are identical. As a result, it is taking a bit more time for development than getting software off the shelf and customizing things like the GUI etc.

Fine, I understand that, moreover I can appreciate that and I wish you good luck, seriously - but please, bear with me for a sec and take a look on the market: those players are on the market for a while now, available, making money for their respective mfrs, those are building user base, groups and thus providing feedback etc whereas yours is still missing, apparently still a month or months away (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm assuming here).
Unless you'll use EM8622L your player's "primetime window" lasts only until the first H.264/AVC-capable player debutes - from that moment you're not the latest generation anymore. And looking at the fact that EM8622L is pin-compatible with EM8620L, I can easily imagine a next Spring arrival for the first one...
Which one is the better approach? There's no general answer, sure but in this case, under given market and other circumstances I'd go with the first one (except if I'd be really experienced in firmware coding).
If you're now banking on EM8622L, that's another story but then why announcing anything as early as beginning of this year, based on the older chip design when you obviously knew Sigma's roadmap at least for a year ahead?

Having said that, those units are good and worth what you pay for. So enjoy that. And you are right we shouldnt have announced it way back when we werent ready but we have learnt from that mistake now and will only announce when we know we can deliver a unit within that time frame in the future.

Exactly my point. :cool: That's why big companies always follow the 'tight-lipped' approach. Making hype is one thing and definitely a must-have in your campaign weaponry but start it only when you're pretty sure about your delivery date, plus/minus few weeks even in worst case scenario.

Anyway, good luck and I'm sure you'll get over your firmware problems and start getting ready for delivery very soon. :cool:

T2k

09-13-05, 10:28 PM

Well.... if we are to use what's happened with other players as an example of whether their will be a region free hack for the Z500.... then.... I think it's safe to assume it would be very likely.... almost a certainty ;)

Cheers

It's evident, otherwise plenty of folks would go for the Snazio which already plays everything and sports DVI.

chuna

09-13-05, 11:05 PM

Fine, I understand that, moreover I can appreciate that and I wish you good luck, seriously - but please, bear with me for a sec and take a look on the market: those players are on the market for a while now, available, making money for their respective mfrs, those are building user base, groups and thus providing feedback etc whereas yours is still missing, apparently still a month or months away (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm assuming here).
Unless you'll use EM8622L your player's "primetime window" lasts only until the first H.264/AVC-capable player debutes - from that moment you're not the latest generation anymore. And looking at the fact that EM8622L is pin-compatible with EM8620L, I can easily imagine a next Spring arrival for the first one...
Which one is the better approach? There's no general answer, sure but in this case, under given market and other circumstances I'd go with the first one (except if I'd be really experienced in firmware coding).
If you're now banking on EM8622L, that's another story but then why announcing anything as early as beginning of this year, based on the older chip design when you obviously knew Sigma's roadmap at least for a year ahead?

If we were to release the Z500 without HDMI., HDCP etc we would have released this long time ago, but the fact is HDMI, HDCP, certifications for HDMI all take a lot longer to do than a simple DVI interface which has no regulations , no certification etc. HDCP is also not an easy task to implement. There are also other things that we decided to do to the firmware which all took time. Again like I said if we wanted to do a Snazio type device, we could have just bought a 3rd party license and released it instantly but thats not where we are going with this. We decided to do things a bit differently for reasons explained above and then add things like FLAC audio support, a better remote which we had to design from scratch.

As for the announcement, at that time, we did not consider HDMI, HDCP, and also the remote etc. We decided to make a lot of changes and as a result put our development time out by a lot. As for 8622, if you know anything about firmware development, we cant simply stick a chip in there and voila it works. Just doesnt work that way, Code has to be changed and will take more development time. Sure Sigma announced that months and months ago but the fact is even they when they announce doesnt mean the samples and SDK are available instantly. Their samples are just being available now. And when did they announce this? You get the point. If we are chasing chipsets like this we may as well stay in Vapor mode cause then users will say why not stick this chip in there and that. Just because H.264 is available doesnt mean that everyone will rush to buy that as both HD DVD and Blue Ray also adopt WMV9. We will come out with a H.264 solution next year. I am not worried at the moment about prime time windows. I am more into making sure the player works well and the features work well and the player has satisfaction amongst its users. That to me is more of a key than primetime windows. And as a result of missing primetime windows it doesnt sell, then so be it but I do know a lot of users looking forward to this player and I am confident we will support it well since we control our own development unlike other devices that rely heavily on 3rd part developers plus a forum for every user to come in and ask questions for support etc.

It is very easy for a user who has no clue how a development cycle works to sit like an armchair quarterback and say why not do this and that. There are lot of things that go behind the scenes that an armchair quarterback has no clue about. If only one understood how these things work they will know it is not easy to stick somehting in a unit and the software magically works.

For us it is simple, we will release the unit when it is ready regardless of what the users say whether it is vaporware etc. And I already told you we made the mistake of announcing early which wont happen again till we know and finalize for future products. And you are right it is all talk now, and you have every right to say things about it. When it releases then hopefully there wll be more action :)

T2k

09-14-05, 12:43 AM

If we were to release the Z500 without HDMI., HDCP etc we would have released this long time ago, but the fact is HDMI, HDCP, certifications for HDMI all take a lot longer to do than a simple DVI interface which has no regulations , no certification etc. HDCP is also not an easy task to implement.

Excuse me but what's the point in this HDMI/HDCP if next year you'll have another player as you write below? Currently the percentage of HDCP-enabled display devices is under the generally considered one-digit error margin, I believe.

There are also other things that we decided to do to the firmware which all took time. Again like I said if we wanted to do a Snazio type device, we could have just bought a 3rd party license and released it instantly but thats not where we are going with this. We decided to do things a bit differently for reasons explained above and then add things like FLAC audio support, a better remote which we had to design from scratch.

I see you're trying to grab a lot but I don't see the reasons. Why? Only reason I can think of is that you thought you can save money on in-house development

As for the announcement, at that time, we did not consider HDMI, HDCP, and also the remote etc.

Now this is really interesting: how do you mean this? As far as I know nobody without stable experience wouldn't risk to add extra functionality to an already designed, announced product, especially not during his first firmware development.
AFAIK you didn't have that experience, so question raises itself: how come you thought you could make it not only cheaper than Syabas-like company but even adding more features on-the-fly and still banking on a timely release?
Frankly, this sounds pretty crazy to me.

We decided to make a lot of changes and as a result put our development time out by a lot. As for 8622, if you know anything about firmware development, we cant simply stick a chip in there and voila it works.

Well, apparently I know enough to not to think that I could not only do a better job on my own than a company makes it for a living but even add more and more extras during my first development...

According to your own statement over at your forum this is going to be your first in-house firmware, right?

Just doesnt work that way, Code has to be changed and will take more development time.

No, sh*t... you guys are working on this for quite some time now. If tools would be ready it could have been enough for a second release too.

Sure Sigma announced that months and months ago but the fact is even they when they announce doesnt mean the samples and SDK are available instantly. Their samples are just being available now.

Well, that's sux but not unknown in this industry. ;)

And when did they announce this? You get the point.

Well, they don't have to deal with plenty of competitors, you do. ;)

If we are chasing chipsets like this we may as well stay in Vapor mode cause then users will say why not stick this chip in there and that.

You misunderstood something, I think: I was asking about this as a possible explanation for the delay, I wasn't suggesting it.

Just because H.264 is available doesnt mean that everyone will rush to buy that as both HD DVD and Blue Ray also adopt WMV9.

No but since it's a commodity, comes on a commodity price, there won't be too much price difference and thus there'll be a substantial percentage of the buyers who will rather buy the latest one, even if you price your Z500 accordingly, narrowing further down your profit margin.
Not only good product sells but marketing sells as well, keep in mind. ;)

We will come out with a H.264 solution next year.

Cool - but then why bother with HDMI/HDCP? It won't be important for at least 1-2 years yet now you're spending time, energy, resources, TTM - in other words money.

I am not worried at the moment about prime time windows. I am more into making sure the player works well and the features work well and the player has satisfaction amongst its users. That to me is more of a key than primetime windows.

As you should do know now, I fully agree - your reputation is on the line after this long delay.
Nota bene it's somewhat still true for Kiss' reputation too, though theirs was already lost on their blatant code theft from the freeware GPL licensed Mplayer, especially when they ourageously not only denied the obvious, well-documented facts but claimed that despite the documents it's actually the other way around... :(

And as a result of missing primetime windows it doesnt sell, then so be it

C'mon... :) is your company a non-profit organization? ;)

but I do know a lot of users looking forward to this player and I am confident we will support it well since we control our own development unlike other devices that rely heavily on 3rd part developers plus a forum for every user to come in and ask questions for support etc.

I believe the same but that doesn't mean it'll be financially feasible.

It is very easy for a user who has no clue how a development cycle works to sit like an armchair quarterback and say why not do this and that.

Ouch, it's pretty low-level, pal...
FYI: apart from the fact that I wasn't saying why not to do this and that but I was saying why to do this and that, it's still way less lame than when a developer has no clue about how his own development cycle works and keeps promising and adding more and more to his 'to-do' log, eventually missing its own promises numerous times. That's called amateur in any developer circles, Mr Developer. (Yes, we develop software in-house too, though it isn't firmware for consumer electronics.)

There are lot of things that go behind the scenes that an armchair quarterback has no clue about. If only one understood how these things work they will know it is not easy to stick somehting in a unit and the software magically works.

Really? So how is that when somebody saw the things "behind the scenes" yet managed to miscalculate its own skills, schedule, the full development process by long-long months?
Isn't this even more armchair-like, when you supposedly knew the tricks and tips and traps yet still couldn't avoid them?

For us it is simple, we will release the unit when it is ready regardless of what the users say whether it is vaporware etc. And I already told you we made the mistake of announcing early which wont happen again till we know and finalize for future products.

I understood that - but then how is that you're calling me armchair quarterback after all these? :P All I did is raised some questions about the reasons of this long delay - and guess what, as it turns out, most likely I was right when I mentioned that perhaps you guys simply underestimated the importance of the lack of your direct experience in this field and/or overloaded yourself, underestimated the diffculty/lenght of the process, the total of all tasks.

And you are right it is all talk now, and you have every right to say things about it. When it releases then hopefully there wll be more action :)

Amen.

chuna

09-14-05, 02:13 AM

Yeah no worries. Time will tell and beta testers have already seen the interface and funcitonality of the product already so will just wait and see when it releases who can fix problems faster and who can support it better. AT least we have support forums and dont have to wait for days to recieve an answer by email.

As for HDCP, they may be in single digits now but when users want to upscale their Hollywood DVD's they will not be able to do it without HDCP, hence why this technology is in the Z500. Your Snazio wont be able to do it without HDCP. If you are able to then they are doing it illegally and will come under fire if they get caught. It has nothing to do with this year or next year, so why not provide them with this technology now? They wont have to wait for another model next year for this if they want to upscale their DVD's this year.

As for development cycles, then I am sure a lot of big gaming companies are also amateurs in your sense of the word as some of them miss by a year. Its the nature of development pal. No one can give an exact time frame for a development especially when hardware is involved along with software development. They can give a target date. Heck look at Microsoft, they must be real amateur then :) Development often slips when its beyond someones control when we have to rely on someone else SDK etc.

You have your opinion, I have mine. Lets agree to disagree :)

JimmytheSaint

09-14-05, 03:19 AM

Guys, it's pointless bickering about which unit is better etc. Both players use the same goddamn chip! :p
However, if chuna and the Zensonic have better support and features (like the USB 2.0 supporting NTFS) and Snazio don't redress that, then I'll get the Zensonic and sell my Snazzi!
I don't care about brand names and affiliation. Just give me the best product available and good support and I'm there. :)

Cheers

deez

09-14-05, 04:30 AM

Same here...tdk let it go nobody is denying you the right to be angry cus you bought the snazzio as a knee jerk reaction and are now resenting yourself for doing so and now taking that remorse out on the zensonic for not getting to market on time...lol your last post should be deleted imo.....now again maybe you can tell me this about tjhe snazzio tdk does it pass BTB or WTW?

of course it doesnt...haha

T2k

09-14-05, 04:53 AM

deez

09-14-05, 04:56 AM

You!
I figured your comments were so misdirected that i would reply the same way....

kwerkun

09-14-05, 08:03 AM

[QUOTE=SeeMoreDigital]As far as I'm aware Roland, no reputable stand-alone player manufacturer can officially distribute "region free" devices."

That is not exactly correct. There seem to be certain geographic areas where all manufacturers, including such ones as SONY, Samsung, Hitachi, JVC, etc, release ALL players as Region-Free. I live in Hong Kong - and here at any electronics retail chain all the players are region free - it is necessity as HK is officially a Region 3 bordering on China (Region 6, I think, but have yet to find any legal Chinese dvd from known studios even that actually is region-coded), and Japan (region 2) and Australia (region 4)! At our local HMV, they sell all the above regions + US TV shows (Region 1s) in their DVD section.

If they hard-coded to region 3 then no-one would buy such DVD players or conversely - even if they bought, then people would simply stop buying any legal region-coded DVDs given easy availability at any shopping center of pirated stuff (region-free) anyway. So I don't see studios/manufacturers doing region-locked players here - unless that is they merge China (6) and SEA (3) and Japan (2) into one region- then maybe.

chuna

09-14-05, 08:24 AM

kwerkun

09-14-05, 11:15 AM

That would explain why all brands seem to be region-free here, but not forgetting that most still offer worldwide warranty dispite the disabling, I'd say that manufacturers are a bit complicit in it all. Funny story is that DVD players purchased from SONY online store are/were (last time I heard) also region-free - would SONY be disabling region control themselves. That would be quite ironic given they are a studio as well.

T2k

09-14-05, 12:57 PM

You!
I figured your comments were so misdirected that i would reply the same way....

Ah, then it's OK. I'm not interested in such silly comments, so you may want to stop posting them - because I won't reply.

MacHound

09-14-05, 02:28 PM

This thread is deteriorating fast. Please clean it up or settle it somewhere else.

SeeMoreDigital

09-14-05, 03:10 PM

Hi kwerkun,

Yes over here in the UK it's very easy to buy players that have been de-regionalized (is that a word) by a supplier too.

You can usually tell if a players box has been opened by looking at its underside rather than its top side ;)

Cheers

Paul_PDX

09-14-05, 03:37 PM

Many of the manufacturers (such as Sony) are also owners of big chunks of the DVD CCA and the critical patents. That gives them flexibility in markets where it is currently necessary to have multi-region players (such as HK, Taiwan, China, and to a small extent Europe). In the US on the otherhand the owners of the DVD CCA have taken a united no violations policy. If Snazio or anyone else got too big and it was widely known how to make it region free the DVD CCA would get customs to start seizing units (I kind of expect Oppo to be one of the ones to get legit soon as they are nearing wide distrobution).

I am happy to see some compliant boxes on the horizon since then I know some future firmware update won't take away region free or upscaling. (and I still hate copy protection never the less).

A/Vspec

09-14-05, 03:48 PM

This player has DVI-I output correct? Has anyone tried the VGA output of this unit on a CRT FP?

SeeMoreDigital

09-14-05, 04:07 PM

Many of the manufacturers (such as Sony) are also owners of big chunks of the DVD CCA and the critical patents. That gives them flexibility in markets where it is currently necessary to have multi-region players (such as HK, Taiwan, China, and to a small extent Europe)....Yes.... it's all pretty laughable.... Given that Sony are now one of the biggest media production companies in the world, one could only imagine how their immediate competitors (ie: the ones that don't manufacture A/V equipment) would react if they suddenly found out Sony openly manufactured, distributed and sold region free players, for use in any part of the world....

Talk about your double standards!

Cheers

Person99

09-14-05, 04:54 PM

This player has DVI-I output correct? Has anyone tried the VGA output of this unit on a CRT FP?

I would ask in the CRT PJ forum as there is a greater chance to get an answer over there.

Dave

SeeMoreDigital

09-14-05, 05:10 PM

This player has DVI-I output correct? Has anyone tried the VGA output of this unit on a CRT FP?I actually asked this very question here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6104457&highlight=DVIA#post6104457). Which was answered by JimmytheSaint here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6105086&&#post6105086).

Cheers

A/Vspec

09-14-05, 09:01 PM

Thanks SMD.

So I guess the next BIG question would be how to I get one here in the states to do an A/B of it? Or was that already asked and answered here as well.... ;)

T2k

09-15-05, 01:09 AM

Quick update: I tried a 35Mbit 1080i50 TS and it played but stopping two times per second for a monent - obviously it's way too high but it was working, the way like when you're watching replay. :)

SeeMoreDigital

09-15-05, 04:33 AM

Quick update: I tried a 35Mbit 1080i50 TS and it played but stopping two times per second for a monent - obviously it's way too high but it was working, the way like when you're watching replay. :)Wow... 35Mbps, that is high... Is this bit-rate common for broadcast content T2k?

I'm hoping to test some HDV camcorder content soon. But as this runs at either 19.3Mbit and 25Mbit... it should not present too much a problem for the chip-set!

Cheers

TUFU

09-15-05, 04:54 AM

As I had posted previously, I also encountered BTWand WTW problem in my Japanese model of I-O DATA AVLP2 with DVI in my PJ SANYO Z3. Today,I set the HDMI of Z3 from L1(VIDEO LEVEL) to L2 (PC LEVEL),then I can configurate my PJ correctly with my disc HI-VI CAST(just like DVE or AVIA). So,I think the DVI output of SIGMA 8620L-based player may have the DVI output set to PC level rather than the usual video level.

Spizz

09-15-05, 06:11 AM

TUFU- I can do this via DVI into my projector as my projector allows 0 or 7.5 IRE settings.

With one setting I can see the bottom black boxes in the Grey scale that seemoredigital posted, but the picture was washed out. Leaving it in the other mode made the bottom boxes or black but the picture was better. How the color was lacking and without a color control on the DVD player you can't increase this.

Same with component outputs going to my projector, however the color can be adjusted on the projector when using component outputs but that picture has some noise in it which isn't there with the DVI output.

Hmmm

Roland Janus

09-15-05, 06:39 AM

I was asking this in the zensonic-thread, but that's not clear yet, so can you confirm please if that is working on the snazzio?

Originally Posted by Roland Janus
I'm correct with this right?

When the player isn't configured to upconvert a commercial dvd it will not add hdcp to the signal so an external scaler (doing a better job) could do the upscaling, resulting in a non-hdcp but upscaled signal which will work for every display with the right connection?

chuna

09-15-05, 11:16 AM

T2k

09-15-05, 11:43 AM

Wow... 35Mbps, that is high... Is this bit-rate common for broadcast content T2k?

It's i50 and you're asking me? ;)
Nah, no way, it'd be waaay too high though its from unknown source (errr, I mean from news://alt.binaries.hdtv :D) so I don't know the facts but I don't think so it was a regularly broadcasted content as it is - it's most likely some test footage (ie from the original HDCAM footage), I believe.

I'm hoping to test some HDV camcorder content soon. But as this runs at either 19.3Mbit and 25Mbit... it should not present too much a problem for the chip-set!

Cheers

No, not at all.
You need HDV footage? I can give you plenty if you can't find long enough. I regularly shoot some crazy art performances (kinda "oldschool" Eas/Mid-Eu-style avantgarde stuff :D) and I only use 1080i60 for a while now (Sony HVR-Z1U). :cool:
I must note I prefer progressive over interlaced at any day but since JVC's HD100 was still in "coming" status when we needed a new, cheap camcorder for B-roll and backup for our Digibeta around May/June, we've picked this one. Since then it worked out flawlessly and apart from the need to learn how not to shoot/frame your picture with this ts-based interlaced cam, it's a really nice device: like every Sony it also has great and 100% perfect autofocus (I use it very often) and its low light minimum is very-very low (those crazy perfomances often happen at dim lights or even nighttime). ALso HD100 is still 720p30 though I tested it on JVC's booth few months ago and it looks GREAT (though several early testers reported chromatic aberrations, so perhaps it's better to wait a few more months with that).

T2k

09-15-05, 11:45 AM

Roland Janus

09-15-05, 11:46 AM

This is not possible whether you use an external scaler or not. The only way it will be possible is if the manufacturer is letting this happen illegally. If you want to upscale any commercial DVD's you will need HDCP period on both ends or you wont get an image.

bummer. :(

So, if I connect the hdmi connector to scaler and then use the dvi output of that scaler would I get a non-hdcp-signal then?

Hm, I think I don't get the concept completely currently... :confused:

But hdcp can already be disabled on the snazio if I remember correctly, right?
Or was that something else?

T2k

09-15-05, 01:21 PM

bummer. :(

So, if I connect the hdmi connector to scaler and then use the dvi output of that scaler would I get a non-hdcp-signal then?

Hm, I think I don't get the concept completely currently... :confused:

But hdcp can already be disabled on the snazio if I remember correctly, right?
Or was that something else?

No hdcp on Snazio, so you're right and his comments doesn't make too much sense here for me.

SeeMoreDigital

09-15-05, 01:50 PM

It's i50 and you're asking me? ;)
Nah, no way, it'd be waaay too high though its from unknown source (errr, I mean from news://alt.binaries.hdtv :D) so I don't know the facts but I don't think so it was a regularly broadcasted content as it is - it's most likely some test footage (ie from the original HDCAM footage), I believe. Over here in the UK we don't have high-def TV yet. So most of my samples are 1080/60i and 720/60p (NTSC)... and they are not at a particularity high bit-rate!

You need HDV footage? I can give you plenty if you can't find long enough. Yes please... I'll take you up on that offer if I may.

I regularly shoot some crazy art performances (kinda "oldschool" Eas/Mid-Eu-style avantgarde stuff :D) and I only use 1080i60 for a while now (Sony HVR-Z1U). :cool:
I must note I prefer progressive over interlaced at any day but since JVC's HD100 was still in "coming" status when we needed a new, cheap camcorder for B-roll and backup for our Digibeta around May/June, we've picked this one. Since then it worked out flawlessly and apart from the need to learn how not to shoot/frame your picture with this ts-based interlaced cam, it's a really nice device: like every Sony it also has great and 100% perfect autofocus (I use it very often) and its low light minimum is very-very low (those crazy perfomances often happen at dim lights or even nighttime). ALso HD100 is still 720p30 though I tested it on JVC's booth few months ago and it looks GREAT (though several early testers reported chromatic aberrations, so perhaps it's better to wait a few more months with that).I must admit I like the idea behind HDV because it's MPEG-2... And I don't like the prospect of re-encoding high-def DV to MPEG-2 (or what-ever else)... In fact I don't like re-encoding std-def DV to MPEG-2... it's a real pain!

Your 720/30p observation is rather intriguing. Technically 30p content should suffer from some form of motion blur because (unlike PAL) NTSC display screens are not equiped to display 30p content correctly, only 29.970i with pull down to 23.976p

Cheers

T2k

09-15-05, 02:43 PM

I missed this...

Yeah no worries. Time will tell and beta testers have already seen the interface and funcitonality of the product already so will just wait and see when it releases who can fix problems faster and who can support it better. AT least we have support forums and dont have to wait for days to recieve an answer by email.

As for HDCP, they may be in single digits now but when users want to upscale their Hollywood DVD's they will not be able to do it without HDCP, hence why this technology is in the Z500. Your Snazio wont be able to do it without HDCP.

OK I'll say it again: there are commercial DVD players with upconversion and there are very few HDCP displays and there's no enforcement other than some possible legal outcome *IF* you start outselling Sony or others, nothing, nada, zero, nyista.

HDCP is not a real argument thus I 'd call it simply spreading FUD, sorry to say this but it's nothing else I think. By the time HDCP will be widely used, say a must-have for the smallest player mfr too, both devices will be long gone, obsolete, especially because H.264 is coming next year like your own new unit, let alone BR/HDDVD drives.
Edit: I confused the acronyms, so I edited here - original didn't make sense. :o Always the rush...

If you are able to then they are doing it illegally and will come under fire if they get caught. It has nothing to do with this year or next year, so why not provide them with this technology now?

Because it DID set you back by 6-8 months now which is still counting until you'll release this unit.
Also as of today the number of manufacturer who "came under fire" because of "illegal" upscaling is a uniquely low one-digit number: zero.

They wont have to wait for another model next year for this if they want to upscale their DVD's this year.

There are *PLENTY* of upscaling players already on the market. Your reasoning lacks the real logics here. It's obvious you're defending a very bad development decision. Irrespectively of who made it (I suspect some least experienced managerial person) it was a very bad one: going for a currently completely nominal thing (HDCP) and therefore pushing back 6-8 months the release in return of nothing else but a weightless claim your upconversion will be so-called "legal" - for who, exactly? For you, guys? A consumer couldn't care less about that. And when tt's already a bad decision, we shouldn't forget that all of these are happening on a very competitive market which already heavily saturated with upconverting DVD players and newer functionality ones (h.264/avc) are already looming on the horizon and where - even you admitted IIRC - the actual retailer has the right to make it region free or do anything else... it just doeasn't make any sense at all. Bad decision, that is. :confused:

As for development cycles, then I am sure a lot of big gaming companies are also amateurs in your sense of the word as some of them miss by a year.

Have you ever worked for one? I highly doubt it. Half of my current colleagues came from those companies and I know that 6-8 months delay *after official release announcement* because of *unplanned* development problems is virtually nonexisting at game companies. You better read up on this before you make your claims, I don't want to get in to the principal differences between game developments and firmware development. BTW the most recent known very long delays were the HL2 and D3 (shipped last year), both developed their own new engines and both came from pretty small firms - and both were completely and utterly amateurly managed, as even their decision makers themselves admitted ever since in countless occasions (interviewes, blogs etc): they made a bunch of very bad decision and/or postponed some necessary ones which together caused the delays (though I have to point out that in case of D3 they (id) actually never said anything about its release date but "when it's done", so it was hardly a delay at all.).

Its the nature of development pal. No one can give an exact time frame for a development especially when hardware is involved along with software development. They can give a target date.

Again, it's not like average software development. Your development is not about developing something revolutionary, you don't develope new algorithms, nor ISA or any similar thing, anything which would come close to what a new engine based on a new rendering method or new operating system or architecture development would mean.
Sure, it's not without challenge but if you hire the right personnel you can easily solve it - of course, *if* no hmmm, let's call it 'unseasoned decisions' will screw up the original schedule.

Heck look at Microsoft, they must be real amateur then :)

Because why? Care to elaborate? They haven't announced a single official shipping date they couldn't keep.
Also they develop their own SDKs and distribute it to developers well before the OS com es out, so it's way bigger scale than writing a firmware with supplied tools.
Also comparing their development to your firmware development is really off. Firmware is an OS, sure but you can't be serious if you really believe you're at the same level of complexity with your fixed-hw-based firmware development.

Development often slips when its beyond someones control when we have to rely on someone else SDK etc.

Yup, that's another point: don't announce anything until it isn't only up to you and you don't feel confident about it.

You have your opinion, I have mine. Lets agree to disagree :)

Of course. But if I'm wrong that doesn't cost me a fortune. ;)