Here are the two up and coming machines from Mitsubishi.

http://www.cine4home.de/Meldungen/HC3000-910/HC3000news.htm

Translated (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cine4home.de%2FMeldungen%2FHC30 00-910%2FHC3000news.htm&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools) by Google...

Interesting, does anyone know the physical size of the new 1280x768 DLP chip? Is it the same as the PAL chip (576p)? Because the article states the H910 and the new H3000 share the same chassis, bulb, brightness and contrast specifications. I would therefore assume the optical assembly is the same as well. This may mean we'll see alot of companies using this new chip as a drop in upgrade to the aging 576p fleet. We could see some really cheap models... I'm thinking of the Infocus 5700 in particular.
-Matt

Anybody know the list price for these models?

Translated (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cine4home.de%2FMeldungen%2FHC30 00-910%2FHC3000news.htm&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools) by Google...

Thanks. One part I don't get is:

The connection side resembles strong that of the small brothers, only the reliable DVI socket was unfortunately replaced here by the HDMI variant. Considering the fact that also the HC3000 has no internal loudspeakers more, the more incomprehensibly.

HDMI inputs can take the YCbCr that is in the original source and allow conversion to RGB inside the projector (hopefully in a higher bitspace) instead of having to do a conversion externally to RGB and passing it as 8 bit data. So, why would somebody prefer a DVI input to an HDMI input? Especially considering that there are devices out that there have bugs that crush the data below video 16 and above video 235 to DVI inputs, but work correctly to HDMI inputs (like the JVC 5U D-Theater deck)?

--Darin

I have seen someones post about a MSRP for HC3000 at 3000 euro. I believe the model has lens shift. That was not mentioned in the article or was it?

If there is a vertical image position shift it is almost 100% electronical and not optical, remember it is a 1280x768 chip not 720...

Darin, I think he justs addresses the lousy design of the HDMI input in general. DVI is a more secure physical connection as you have two thumbscrew to tighten it.

Just speculation but...

As far as I know, they don't have HDTV in Europe yet so their only digital sources are probably computer based. Having HDMI would require an adapter an it's probably assumed to be more costly or unneccessary complication. I didn't realized HDMI could take an analog signal so maybe they didn't either :D
-Matt

1280X768 ok for computers but Upscaling players and STB's can't match for 1.1 with no scaling by the projectors.

I'm assuming there will be a 1280x720 mode where it turns off the remaining pixels so you can put up 720p images with no scaling. TI did something similar way back in the day with a 848x600 chip so you could do both 848x480 and 800x600 natively.
-Matt

So will this chip work just as well as a 720p?

Dual mode would be great like the DM HT200 and IF LS110.

If you go on specs only, it should perform very closely to todays <$3500 720p DLPs. This new two-way chip (768p 4:3 or 720p 16:9) uses the same 12 degree mirrors, equally fast or better DDR controller and darkchip 2 technology of the HD2+ 720p. HD3 and it's performance gains will probably be reserved for the $4000 and up crowd.

Specs aside, what will really dictate these machines performce is whether manufacturers decide to make a business projector with HT features or a HT projector that will show PPTs. That will dictate what color wheel/speed they design for, the noise level, the form factor, the connections offered, the scalar, etc... I have a feeling we'll see quite a few of these new units as really designed for business class (mass market) but that are acceptable for entry level HT.... ala an Infocus X4 or something. That said, the first two units announced, this Mits and the LG both appear to be targeted towards the HT crowd! I guess we'll see.
-Matt

Dual mode would be great like the DM HT200 and IF LS110.
Yeah, I think Plus had one too.
-Matt

Darin, I think he justs addresses the lousy design of the HDMI input in general. DVI is a more secure physical connection as you have two thumbscrew to tighten it.
I understood that part, but the guys at Cine4Home are usually very knowledgeable and I don't see how they can even imply that sound is the only advantage of HDMI over DVI. I'll take an HDMI myself for the YCbCr. If they are concerned about the physical connection then get an adapter and/or a short conversion cable, but don't limit what the video can do to an 8 bit RGB input for the rest of us just for that. At least that is my opinion. I consider HDMI inputs an upgrade if the projector internals are done correctly (to help avoid banding issues and anything else that can be caused by converting to an 8 bit RGB space) and would like to see my next projector after the H79 (with DVI) have an HDMI input.

--Darin

(to help avoid banding issues and anything else that can be caused by converting to an 8 bit RGB space)It seems to me just a question of where and when. The conversion to RGB has to happen with most all current PJ’s and is often done early in the display. Like gains/offsets and levels, it seems the argument is more about what end of the cable to do it on rather than a choice whether to do it at all.

Dave

It seems to me just a question of where and when. The conversion to RGB has to happen with most all current PJ’s and is often done early in the display. Like gains/offsets and levels, it seems the argument is more about what end of the cable to do it on rather than a choice whether to do it at all.
Kind of. The argument to me is more about whether it needs to be done with 8 bits or can be done with a higher bitspace (which is an advantage when converting or scaling). If the internals to the projector are going to be truncating to 8 bit RGB early then I don't see much difference between DVI and HDMI (other than input devices with bugs). Also, if somebody is using a scaler like a DVDO then I believe it is doing its calculations in YUV space. So, an HD+ model with DVI input will have to get 8 bit RGB from the source, convert it to YUV, do any wizardry, then convert back to 8 bit RGB to send to a DVI projector. But, the VP30 model with HDMI input going to an HDMI input display could keep everything in YUV all the way to the display without truncating to 8 bit. In this case, even if the projector went to 8 bit RGB at the very end I think that could be better than doing it very early and then doing lots of calculations that could expand rounding errors.

As examples, the Sony HS51 and upcoming Sanyo Z4 are both claimed to do 12 bit processing internally. In those case I would prefer to see HDMI inputs, which they both have, to DVI inputs (I believe the HS51 has one of these also, but I would probably use the HDMI for more image critical stuff).

BTW: Did you get a chance to look at the scenes from "Ali" I posted screenshots for on the CRT forum?

--Darin

I think Htpcfan touched on this issue, when he said: the display or decode device, is the intended destination for the relevant (16/235) data, and it will decide to discard the oversized bits ie Normalization. & Also implying it's robust!

Also the headroom is built into the digital payload, implying even if a larger (10 bit) RGB were used, still it would not change the 'noise floor issue> Error correction and headroom are for the display to be linear when white is above 100%IRE.

Also Darin: the banding issues are emphasized, if trying to calibrate to (-IRE)
values, it forces you to raise black above (16) to see it. You would be better off using (16) @ 7.5IRE or (16) @0IRE, for brightness adjustment IMO.


thomas

I understood that part, but the guys at Cine4Home are usually very knowledgeable and I don't see how they can even imply that sound is the only advantage of HDMI over DVI. I'll take an HDMI myself for the YCbCr.
Here is a recent review on cine4home (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_load?lp=de_en&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cine4home.de%2Ftests%2Fdvd-player%2FDVI-Vergleich%2FDVI-Special.htm) where they compare upscaling DVD player outputs using DVI, HDMI and YCbCr over HDMI. I didn't quite follow everything but maybe it will shed some light on their bias. It seems from the pictures that they weren't impressed by the analog capabilities over HDMI. By the way, the link is the translated version.
-Matt

Matt,

The link is interesting in that, indeed 100% white defines everything about the image; meaning everything tracks with , ie Black, Gamma, pedestal, & APL.

Video standards are a key word used in the doc. The color temperature would be the same for everyone, if they used equal values for gamma crosspoint when color temperature is coded. ie 2.35 or some common "standard". Also this specification is referenced to the phosphor characteristics, of the reference CRT monitor, the artist is painting with..

Also a digital signal is in itself is robust, meaning judder and slop are irrelevant.

thomas

Here is a recent review on cine4home (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_load?lp=de_en&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cine4home.de%2Ftests%2Fdvd-player%2FDVI-Vergleich%2FDVI-Special.htm) where they compare upscaling DVD player outputs using DVI, HDMI and YCbCr over HDMI. I didn't quite follow everything but maybe it will shed some light on their bias. It seems from the pictures that they weren't impressed by the analog capabilities over HDMI. By the way, the link is the translated version.
Thanks. First of all I don't see them mention the display used and I don't see how all these conclusions can be drawn without knowing the display. I would not be surprised at all if many displays had different colorimetry with RGB input than YCbCr input. Next, for the Denon 2910/3910 I believe they say that the player needs to be put in "HDMI YPbPr" mode to perform best, yet that goes against the railing against an HDMI input on a projector if the DVI input doesn't allow using that mode to that projector. It would be nice if they could comment on this, as those two things don't seem to be consistent to me.

--Darin

The argument to me is more about whether it needs to be done with 8 bits or can be done with a higher bitspace Dual link DVI is not limited to 24bit RGB. It can support greater depths- at least in spec.BTW: Did you get a chance to look at the scenes from "Ali" I posted screenshots for on the CRT forum? Yes I did. Thanks. I was looking for Chris to provide scene confirmation or a frame # / timestamp as it was his assertion that scenes from this title would provide good evidence of WTW image information. It seems you and I agree that this title doesn’t offer such evidence so it didn’t seem worthwhile to do a more thorough analysis without input from Chris. I don’t sense much interest from others in using images to contrast and compare image information. I don’t get it. I could certainly do the A/Bs (as could most anyone) but in the case of Ali and you, it seems I was preaching to the choir. Please advise if you see any merit of further analysis of this title.

Dave

Dual link DVI is not limited to 24bit RGB. It can support greater depths- at least in spec.

I'm not sure what else dual link can support that would be useful here. It might just be in the spec as you say. I think it might be possible for a DVI input projector to basically indicate to the sender that they can take the digital component signal (YCbCr) just like an HDMI input though. The same might be true for 480i, which is one I forgot.

Yes I did.
...
Please advise if you see any merit of further analysis of this title.

If you looked at one or more the timestamps I posted with your histogram approach and didn't see much at all above 235 then it pretty much confirms what I saw with that one, as I wasn't sure if there was something else in my chain and I couldn't determine things with great accuracy. And so I don't think looking at more things on that disk would help much, as you say.

Thanks,
Darin

I'm not sure what else dual link can support that would be useful here.
Higher bit depth across the cable. I thought that was one of the assumed? limits when you said: The argument to me is more about whether it needs to be done with 8 bits or can be done with a higher bitspace It might just be in the spec as you say. From page 13 of the DVI 1.0 Spec: Color depths requiring greater that 24-bit per pixel are allowed to be supported via the second link. I think it might be possible for a DVI input projector to basically indicate to the sender that they can take the digital component signal (YCbCr) just like an HDMI input though. I’m not sure but I don’t think so. While primarily it’s just an encoding and TMDS transmission method, it seems pretty specific in it’s encoding method. I’ve not seen any support for YCbCr in spec or implementation.

DVI / HDMI will both be legacy interfaces soon anyway. :rolleyes: A new TMDS / LVDS differential proposal (Display port or something like that) is on the move and address the mechanical weakness of HDMI and the encoding, bandwidth, audio, and content protection limits of DVI.
so I don't think looking at more things on that disk would help much, as you say. Agreed. Unless Chris (or someone) can chime in and advise more specifically what we? may be missing here.

Dave

Higher bit depth across the cable. I thought that was one of the assumed? limits when you said:
I should have been more clear. By "that would be useful here" I meant with the projectors we have that probably wouldn't take a higher bit depth anyway. My guess is that projector manufacturers would go to an HDMI input instead of staying with a DVI and adding support for greater bit depth than 8 bit RGB, even if the cables and specs support it.

--Darin

Next, for the Denon 2910/3910 I believe they say that the player needs to be put in "HDMI YPbPr" mode to perform best, yet that goes against the railing against an HDMI input on a projector if the DVI input doesn't allow using that mode to that projector. It would be nice if they could comment on this, as those two things don't seem to be consistent to me.


The comment was about the lousy physical connection of HDMI. With HDMI, we had alot of connection problems lately... So yeah, the best solution would be an YPbPr compatible DVI-socket ;-) ... we should invent one !


Regards,
Ekkehart, www.cine4home.de

The comment was about the lousy physical connection of HDMI. With HDMI, we had alot of connection problems lately... So yeah, the best solution would be an YPbPr compatible DVI-socket ;-) ... we should invent one !

Thanks. Maybe something like this (http://www.pacificcable.com/Picture_Page.asp?DataName=DVIY%2D9) HDMI male to 2 females would help. I couldn't find a single male to female cable, but found a 6" female to female here (http://www.pacificcable.com/Picture_Page.asp?DataName=HDMIFF) that could be combined with 2 male to male cables to hopefully put less stress on the connection at the projector (if that is what you were referring to). If it was just getting connectors to go together right to sync then these might not help, but I haven't run into any HDMI problems so far (although I am mostly using HDMI outputs from sources as I don't have HDMI inputs on my projectors at the moment).

--Darin

Agreed. Unless Chris (or someone) can chime in and advise more specifically what we? may be missing here.

Say Dave, I don't have Ali anymore, I could pick it up again when I get back in town, but it's just something from a long time ago that recollect seeing clipping when I was working out my PC and its levels. I think the screenshots you posted, the guys' forehead is an excellent example of clipping and colorshifting. But like I said, it's probably been at least a year since I've seen this movie so I don't even hardly remember what happens in it, let alone specific scenes. I can't really remember what else at the time showed clipping. I haven't spent a lot of time looking at stuff on systems that clip at all recently, so it's not like I have a vast array of scenes I can point you to that will look clipped above 235.

Bump!

Any CEDIA sightings?

Thanks for bumping this as I was about to start a new post.

The HX3000U was shown along side the 900 and it's a very impressive projector at the scheduled retail of $3000. It's a DC3 chip which is also using TI's DDP3020 BrilliantColor technology (more about that here (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/06-08-2005/0003824244&EDATE=)). It's rated at 1000 ANSI lumens, 4000:1 CR and 26 dB at the low setting which also gives you 3000 hr. lamp life. It's supposedly available in October. The display was not the greatest, but colors had a lot more pop than the 900. Could be the hot item in the under $3K DLP world.

The HX3000U was shown along side the 900 and it's a very impressive projector at the scheduled retail of $3000. It's a DC3 chip which is also using TI's DDP3020 BrilliantColor technology (more about that here (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/06-08-2005/0003824244&EDATE=)). It's rated at 1000 ANSI lumens, 4000:1 CR and 26 dB at the low setting which also gives you 3000 hr. lamp life. It's supposedly available in October. The display was not the greatest, but colors had a lot more pop than the 900. Could be the hot item in the under $3K DLP world.

!!!!!
DC3 for $3K retail. The H78 will have a competitor very soon.

Thanks Mike. I had been wondering where the news regarding 720P DLP were.

Mike,

Translated this from the cine4home link at the start of the thread:

"Mitsubishi recognized and offers this trend, with the coming HC3000 a hp ready projector for a similarly attractive price. Here however not the typical 1280x720 DMD, but the new 1280 x 768 variant"

If this is correct then is TI also giving the 1280x768 chip the Darkchip 3 treatment with the faster mirrors, more light output and higher contrast?

Yes. It's a new chip. It's listed in the prelim specs as: 0.65" 1-chip DMD, 12 deg. LVDS, Dark Chip 3 with DDP3020

Yes. It's a new chip. It's listed in the prelim specs as: 0.65" 1-chip DMD, 12 deg. LVDS, Dark Chip 3 with DDP3020

This is HUGE - this chip has already been confirmed to be substantially cheaper for ti to make then the current 720 dmds, and the annouced pj pricing seems to bear that out - dc3 (with added pc capabilities) vs. D5, worth it's own thread - this battle is going to shape the <$3,500 world until a 1080 chip makes it to us (so the next 2 years.)

The contrast looks pretty disappointing -- 4000:1, and that's with a dynamic iris. Doesn't the Optoma H78 have the same CR without DI?

Just speculation but...

As far as I know, they don't have HDTV in Europe yet so their only digital sources are probably computer based. Having HDMI would require an adapter an it's probably assumed to be more costly or unneccessary complication. I didn't realized HDMI could take an analog signal so maybe they didn't either :D
-Matt

It doesn't! HDMI is a digital only input. DVI can be either digital (DVI-D) or analog (DVI-A) or both (DVI-I). Also, DVI-D is only an 8-bit digital interface, whereas HDMI can be 8-bit, 10-bit or 12-bit. It's also a wider bandwidth interface.

I just posted this in the 768p thread on the >$3.5K forum but... The question I really want answered...

Now that people are claiming the Brilliant Color wheel in the super fantabulous 1080p single chip demo drastically reduced rainbows... Will the new 1280x768p, DC3, cheapo chip offer the same benefits? Anyone who has seen either the Mits (at Cedia) or the new LGs (at IFA) care to comment on RBE and whether it is:
A) Same
B) Improved
C) Worse
when compared to the previous DC2, DC2+, DC3 implementations using the regular wheels? Maybe Ekkehart from Cine4home could comment? I know he had the new Mits in for testing... Or is there something else at work in the new 1080p single chipper?
-Matt

This is starting to sound very promising. If it does true 1:1 pixel matching with a 720P input and has the DC3 chip this may be what I've been waiting for!:)

The contrast looks pretty disappointing -- 4000:1, and that's with a dynamic iris. Doesn't the Optoma H78 have the same CR without DI?

Not a dynamic iris, a motorized iris. ;)

I find it odd that no more manufacturers announced 720P DLP projectors (assuming that all HT projectors using this chip will have a 720 mode for 16x9) with it. Maybe they are all holding off until CES which would be a mistake because by then D5 720P projectors should be widely available.

" I find it odd that no more manufacturers announced 720P DLP projectors "

Maybe it'll be the same as last year, when it took a few months after the release of the HS51 and Pan 700 before the Sharp 2000 and Benq/Toshiba 720P's showed up at breakthrough prices.

Projectorcentral included HC3000 in their projector database. It's DarkChip 3 DLP technology with DDP3020.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/Mitsubishi-HC3000.htm

Thanks for bumping this as I was about to start a new post.

The HX3000U was shown along side the 900 and it's a very impressive projector at the scheduled retail of $3000. It's a DC3 chip which is also using TI's DDP3020 BrilliantColor technology (more about that here (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/06-08-2005/0003824244&EDATE=)). It's rated at 1000 ANSI lumens, 4000:1 CR and 26 dB at the low setting which also gives you 3000 hr. lamp life. It's supposedly available in October. The display was not the greatest, but colors had a lot more pop than the 900. Could be the hot item in the under $3K DLP world.

Mike, excuse my being dense, but when you say the display was not the greatest, are you talking about the PQ? Was that due to the booth set-up? Calibration seriously required?

Thanks, G

Mike, excuse my being dense, but when you say the display was not the greatest, are you talking about the PQ? Was that due to the booth set-up? Calibration seriously required?


Mainly the booth setup. It was just a little add-on display area with a small split screen displaying the two projectors. Not even a separate tented area like many of the others had. I almost missed it entirely while walking through. While it didn't look bad, I'd reserve judgment on PQ until I saw it under better conditions. There's a lot of potential there though.

Yes. It's a new chip. It's listed in the prelim specs as: 0.65" 1-chip DMD, 12 deg. LVDS, Dark Chip 3 with DDP3020
From what I've read in HT Magazine, this new DMD is actually a 640 x 720 DMD and it gets 1280 x 720 using the DDP3020 which includes a "wobulated" main mirror. This is why it's only 0.65" and cheaper.

What did that just mean? Speak slowly as I am just a simple caveman...

Woops! I screwed up - the DD3020 is their "Brilliantcolor" process (6 color segments "to give more vibrant colors").

NOTE: See MikeSRC's link (copied from the Infocus thread): http://www.dlp.com/about_dlp/about_dlp_press_release.asp?id=1260

morgan1112 -- "Wobulated" means that they use a main mirror to wobble slightly to make one pixel do the job of 2. This doubles the number of horizontal pixels (hence they can use 640 pixels to giive them 1280 virtual pixels). Some of the new 1920 x 1080 DLP RPTVs use this to use a 960 x 1080 DMD to produce a full 1920 x 1080 display. This also means that they have to process the video signal at twice the horizontal rate that they would have to do if they used a full 1280 x 720 DMD. The trade-off is that it is cheaper to design an build the higher frequency circuits than it is to build a bigger DMD. The "drawback(?)" is that the color wheel has to rotate twice as fast (I'm guessing - can anyone confirm?).

From what I've read in HT Magazine, this new DMD is actually a 640 x 720 DMD and it gets 1280 x 720 using the DDP3020 which includes a "wobulated" main mirror. This is why it's only 0.65" and cheaper.

This would change things significantly if that is true. How would it be able to handle 1280x768 if its only 640x720?

From what I've read in HT Magazine, this new DMD is actually a 640 x 720 DMD and it gets 1280 x 720 using the DDP3020 which includes a "wobulated" main mirror. This is why it's only 0.65" and cheaper.

I thought we were talking about a 1280 x 768 DMD not 1280 x 720 DMD. Are you sure you are not confusing with any other chip? I thought TI decided not to use any "wobulated" chip with front projectors.

Oops again! I guess that should be 640 x 768, wobulated?

If it was not "wobulated, then it would not be a 0.65" DMD.

Mitsubishi (Japan) site doesn't think it's "wobulated."
http://www.mitsubishielectric.co.jp/projector/home/lvp_hc3000/top.html

I was under the impression that it was a "true" 1280 X 768, but I don't have anything to confirm that.

Yes, the DDP3020 is a separate ASIC that provides the "BrilliantColor" processing.

Would the picture quality decrease by being 'wobulated'?

Claus,

Where is your infomation coming from that this chip is wobulated? I've yet so see anything to that matter. This 1280x768 chip was discussed before (don't have a link) and it is supposed to be a value chip in the sense that it will be used in business and HT applications. The lesser value coming from the chip being produced in large quantities since the business market is much bigger than the home theater market.

"If it was not "wobulated, then it would not be a 0.65" DMD. "

I believe it's just a smaller die/pixel size, ergo the reduced cost.

The current 1280x720 DMD's .8".

Now I am a little confused. What is "the new 1280 x 768 variant" and at that, can it still be native 720P?

Oops again! I guess that should be 640 x 768, wobulated?

If it was not "wobulated, then it would not be a 0.65" DMD.


Claus, I'm sorry, but you are simply wrong, it is NOT a wobulated DMD. Period.

Now I am a little confused. What is "the new 1280 x 768 variant" and at that, can it still be native 720P?

It's a variant so that it can fit a full 1024x768 resolution for pc use, and 1280x720 for home theater use. 1280x720 can fit in a 1280x768 window.

There are comments about using 1024x768 mode with PCs. I assume you will also be able to watch 4:3 video in this mode also? You'd get about 14% more pixels than with just 960x720 (if my calcs are correct).

If projectors using this 768P chip cannot do 1:1 pixel mapping at 1280x720 for home theater use they will be hard sell. I can't imagine this projector not having a 720P mode since it is a home theater projector.

jsm88 -- Do you know that for a fact? Could you provide a source/link? I'm just reporting what I have read concerning the "same (?)" DMD used in their DLP RPTV.

MikeSRC -- Do you have any further info on the DMD used in the Mitsubishi FP?

jsm88 -- Do you know that for a fact? Could you provide a source/link? I'm just reporting what I have read concerning the "same (?)" DMD used in their DLP RPTV.

MikeSRC -- Do you have any further info on the DMD used in the Mitsubishi FP?


Found this at the DLP site (http://www.dlp.com/about_dlp/about_dlp_press_release.asp?id=1261) . This chip has been mentioned before for its dual use mostly in the other forum. It is not a wobulated dmd. You also mentioned its counterpart the new asic that incorporates "Brilliant Color". It seems that no front pj manufacturer has any plans to use wobulation Dmd's just rear pj manufacturers at this time.

Tentative product sheet (http://www.projektoren-datenbank.com/pdf/mitsubishihc3000-en.pdf) of the HC3000.

Does anybody else suspect this PJ will have no lens shifting? I couldn't find any buttons on the picture that might suggest this, and the PDF makes no mention of it, not even on the diagram on page 2.

It is fixed offset (no lens shift), according to the Mitsubishi Japan page linked by kosha on the previous page.

It sounds like they are geering up to release this unit in Europe. What about release in the USA?

The U.S. preliminary product sheet I received states:
"Availability: Targeting October 2005"

I see air filter in the tentative product sheet provided by Grubert.
No lens shift, but you get an air filter!

I see air filter in the tentative product sheet provided by Grubert.
No lens shift, but you get an air filter!

Does that mean no sealed optics?

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/MitsuHC3000/Preview/HC3000Prev.htm

Gosh, the cine4home guys are quick.

Translated by Babelfish (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=de_en&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cine4home.de%2Ftests%2Fprojektoren%2FMi tsuHC3000%2FPreview%2FHC3000Prev.htm)

It looks to me like this unit does not have the brilliant color wheel...?
-Matt

From cinehome regarding the chip:

Thus it offers a DarkChip-3 DMD with 12° tilting angle and a dissolution of 1280x768 pixels as the first favorable hp ready projector. The advantage of this new chip from the house Texas Instruments is to signals in its increased dissolution and compatibility to standard PC-xga. Critics will criticize that his dissolution not exactly that „kleinen“ And so possibly a scaling corresponds to HDTV standard 720p required. Since however medium-term (hopefully) eh the Full hp standard will become generally accepted with 1080 lines and here more dissolution in any case is of advantage, we cannot divide this criticism.

Isn't "Brilliant Color" part of the processing and not just the wheel, as such?

Hi,

after reading the review from cine4home and searching via google, i found, that "brilliant color" doesn't imply additional magenta, cyan and yellow segments. It only "allows" projector designer to be more flexible in designing the color wheel. One aspect is to use additional colors ("up to 6 colors"), but the technique mitsubishi uses is just a RGBRGB wheel, where the red segments are slightly larger to overcome the limited red output of the bulbs

Ralph

Wow! Looks like this is going to be my new projector.
I know that there is not much money to make from a powerbuy on this unit but I am sure this is the projector that the initial X1 owners (including myself) are waiting for and justify an upgrade.

Here's more detail from Projector Central: http://www.projectorcentral.com/cedia_2005.htm

Article mainly focuses on the five new LCD'ers, but also has an optomistic write-up of the HC3000. Gotta love seeing a DLP undercutting LCD.

One thing I'm not clear on is whether the chip is physically 1.78:1 or 1.67:1. If it's the former, then 720P will have to be scaled. If it's the latter, then it will need a custom screen (or zooming in and out when switching between 720P and XGA). Anyone know which way they did it?

One thing I'm not clear on is whether the chip is physically 1.78:1 or 1.67:1. If it's the former, then 720P will have to be scaled.

The product sheet that Grubert posted says the chip is 16:9 or 1.78:1.
Its not entirely clear to me why 720p needs to be scaled. Please explain.

"The product sheet that Grubert posted says the chip is 16:9 or 1.78:1."

I'll bet they were just speaking loosely.

If it were 16:9 at 1280x768, the pixels would have to be rectangular, and then the AR for 1280x720 wouldn't be 16:9, and the AR for 1024x768 wouldn't be 4:3.

That babelfish translation seems to indicate there is no lens shift. If that's true, this is going to be a problem for most people. How can you set it up in just one way?

DANG! So many choices! Now Mitsubishi HC3000, Toshiba H77, BenQ PE7700, InFocus 7805, Panasonic AE9000... perhaps I should just step back and not pay attention until either my current bulb burns out, or I get a Blu-Ray DVD player to worry about it... things will probably change a lot in 6 months.

I want to stay DLP unless an LCD can offer just as good contrast and black levels as an equivalently priced DLP - or have enough advantage price wise over DLP so as to make the lesser quality worth the cheaper price. [speaking robotically] Of course I'm sure it won't matter since the current MSRPs will not change in the next six months.

This is going to be interesting. I'm a first time projector shopper and I've been sold on the h77 for a couple of weeks. Now that this new pj has showed up, I can't wait to see a review and side by side comparison. I won't be buying my pj until Nov., so I've got a little time to see how things shape up.

This is going to be interesting. I'm a first time projector shopper and I've been sold on the h77 for a couple of weeks.


Can I ask what is this H77 you're referring to?

Optoma H77

I'm a first time projector shopper and I've been sold on the h77 for a couple of weeks. Now that this new pj has showed up, I can't wait to see a review and side by side comparison.
add me to this list. pulling the trigger in the next few weeks after the several month progression of infocus 4805 > optoma h31 > tosh mt700 > benq pe7700 > optoma h77, with the sony hs51 as a backup if i have a bad dlp reaction. now this mits is in the picture.

from what i can gather the h77 and the mits look fairly comparable, dc3 on the mits vs. 8 segment color wheel plus general quality on the optoma high end fp (msrp still listed as $9000).

i'm thrilled that i've gone from a good 480p to a great 720p, but the trip is driving me crazy! :D

We don't know how fast the color wheel is going to be on theis correct?

If it isn't a signifigant improvement over my 4805 I'll probably have to go with a 720p LCD because I see rainbows a lot. This projector does sound great other than that however.

I once brought up a similar question regarding the non standard resolution (methinks it was that flat hang on the wall LG projector). I was always under the assumption that the mirrors would have to be square as they tilted on their diagonal axis... going by this simplistic logic I'm thinking that the projected image is not going to be true 16:9, hence the screen would not be fully utilised if it is a 16:9 screen, unless the optics somehow squish the image a little to make it 16:9 it could be a consideration for many.

It really does bring into light the fact that eventually 1080p will be the only resolution... hopefully. At least there is none of this PAL and NTSC having differing resolutions, with a unified resolution things should be good :) In the meantime 1280x768 makes an interesting transition, however it probably won't sway many away from 1280x720 is my guess, a few, but not many.

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

In the meantime 1280x768 makes an interesting transition, however it probably won't sway many away from 1280x720 is my guess, a few, but not many.

What intrigues me about this projector is it appears to promise the best of both worlds when it comes to 4:3 v 16:9 projectors. You get HD resolutions without sacrificing the ability to do decent resolution 4:3. I still watch lots of standard format TV as well as movies and HD.

I have an X1 with a panamorph and have a nice picture. I was looking to pick up the NEC HT1100 and continue using my panamorph. With the HC3000 I have the opportunity to sell both the X1 and the anamorphic lens and get better resolution to boot!

I'll be getting an xbox360 when it comes out on nov.22. The 360 puts out an image of 720 or 1080(whatever you choose). It seems with this resolution, I won't be able to get 1.1 transfer @ 720. If thats the case, I'm still leaning towards the optoma h77(that's if I dont see rainbows).

@SGinAZ

You can still do 4:3 with a 1280x720 PJ. As far as I know there is no 1024x768 source material anyway, both ways there is scaling, you get a fraction more resolution but you may (and this was the point of my post) not have a 16:9 screen completely filled when in widescreen mode. Where this will excel is IF one uses it for XGA gaming on the PC and the PJ supports an XGA mode so there is no scaling. Still early days to see how it all comes together though... so my thoughts are just speculation.

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

There still seems to be a difference in refresh rates at upconverted resolutions for PAL and NTSC (or is it just for upconverted pal/ntsc dvd). Pal is still 50hz and Ntsc is 60hz.

It depends. For example, the Denon 3910 upscales PAL as 720p/60 (changing the frame rate) but the Pioneer 59AVi upscales it as 720p/50.

hdkhang,

I'm not sure I understand you. My impression was that you could choose widescreen, and the projector would use 1280x720 pixels. The rest would stay off -- like a letterbox (and not be TOTALLY black, but a mask would suffice). If you chose 4:3, the projector would use 1024x768 pixels, and the other (pillarbox) pixels would stay off. I don't know if you could use is in full panel (1280x768) mode, but not sure why you would want to. What is also not clear is if you can "shift" the picture (in widescreen, can you move the picture up 24 piels so that the top row of pixels contains the top row of "content" with 48 rows of pixels on the bottom (for 16x9 content), or move it down so the 48 unused rows are at the top, or anywhere in-between. I could see that being a nice feature.

I'd think if it has a decent scalar, 1024x768 would be nice for 4:3 content, even if it was scaled.

Thanks, Greg

Specs don't say what scaler but the 3Dpro deinterlacing chip is used in conjuction with the Pixelworks scaler chip in all the Optoma projectors. Good chance it's a Pixelworks chip and that ain't bad.

Don't have a link for this. Tsung Ling in the > $3.5K forum thinks the chip in this projector is Darkchip 2, not 3.

Don't have a link for this. Tsung Ling in the > $3.5K forum thinks the chip in this projector is Darkchip 2, not 3.

Mitsu must have traded lens shift with Darkchip 3. :)

If you look closely at the menu screenshots on the cineform review, there are some interesting menu options. On the second tab of the menu, the "Installation" tab, the first choice looks like it is allowing you to choose to use 720p 16:9 as your default setup. The choice below looks like it is allowing you to move the 1280x720 image up or down within the chips physical 1280x768 window. Very cool! On the third tab "Options", it looks to allow you to choose 16x9 and I assume 4x3 within whatever physical setup you had chosen on the "Installation" tab. This projector looks to allow many configuration and setup options.

Anybody have any recent experience with Mitsu dependablity, warranty response and response to user satisfaction (will they release firmware updates)? Given the talk at the BenQPe7700 and MT700 forums I think this is becoming a greater issue for me.

If you look closely at the menu screenshots on the cineform review, there are some interesting menu options. On the second tab of the menu, the "Installation" tab, the first choice looks like it is allowing you to choose to use 720p 16:9 as your default setup. The choice below looks like it is allowing you to move the 1280x720 image up or down within the chips physical 1280x768 window. Very cool! On the third tab "Options", it looks to allow you to choose 16x9 and I assume 4x3 within whatever physical setup you had chosen on the "Installation" tab. This projector looks to allow many configuration and setup options.
This, is essence, sounds like it would give you the equivalent of a very limited lens shift. If you had a 16:9 setup, you would get 48 pixels in vertical shift while if you had a 4:3 setup, you would get 256 pixes of horizontal leeway. I'm not saying its a replacement for lens shift but it would make mounting easier. Getting a projector and screen to line up perfectly is not the easiest thing and this would help a little.
-Matt

Don't have a link for this. Tsung Ling in the > $3.5K forum thinks the chip in this projector is Darkchip 2, not 3.

Here's the post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6195489#post6195489

Hello
I am looking at the preliminary spec sheet and press release and it says DC-3
Other notables 1000 ANSI CR claimed 4000:1 Lamp life 3000hrs
fan noise 26dB Availability Oct 2005 ;)

Anybody have any recent experience with Mitsu dependablity, warranty response and response to user satisfaction (will they release firmware updates)? Given the talk at the BenQPe7700 and MT700 forums I think this is becoming a greater issue for me.

Some people and I don't know why pawn over mit's more so than even sony lovers. I have owned a Mit CRT and one of their top of the line VCR's and they were the crappiest electronics I've ever owned. The Tube was shot in year 5 only displyed black and white with distortion all over the screen the VRC ate tapes for lunch and dinner and made sounds only god can define. I personally think Mit's is utter crap and I won't buy anything with their name on it. Someone else will have a 768P I'm sure and that's what I'll look at. just IMHO.

I also had some bad luck with a couple mits tube tv's but am hoping their projectors are better.

I've got a 31" Mits tube TV and VCR that are easily 14 years old. Both are still trucking along just fine... My bad luck was with Sony. :rolleyes:

Thanks for bumping this as I was about to start a new post.

The HX3000U was shown along side the 900 and it's a very impressive projector at the scheduled retail of $3000. It's a DC3 chip which is also using TI's DDP3020 BrilliantColor technology (more about that here (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/06-08-2005/0003824244&EDATE=)). It's rated at 1000 ANSI lumens, 4000:1 CR and 26 dB at the low setting which also gives you 3000 hr. lamp life. It's supposedly available in October. The display was not the greatest, but colors had a lot more pop than the 900. Could be the hot item in the under $3K DLP world.


What is the 900? Full name and manufacturer, please. :confused:

Mitsubishi HC900, last year's model.

Wanted to be clear on that comparison. :)

My first projector was a Z2 with lens shift. I had thought the lenz shift sounded like a nice idea as I shopped around. After I got it and mounted it on my ceiling I found lens shift to be absolutely indispensible. With velcro and felt I was able to make a cheap simple moveable top masking boarder for my DIY fixed screen. All I had to do was us the lens shift to reposition the picture to it would not show black, excuse me gray, bars. A couple time I needed to take it down, flip the picture, and use as a table top at another residence. So easy to set up with lens shift. A few times I bumped it while cleaning... no problem repositioning my baby. Take it down for a thurough cleaning, easy as heck to put it back up.

My point is I just can't believe Mitsubishi is putting out the HC 3000 w/o lens shift, but they are. I would have been all over this pj (720 dlp dc3) like white on rice but instead have crossed it off my list and choosing between Z4 and Panasonic. So close but not far enough. How expensive can the addition of lens shift be since low budget pjs routinely have this feature? I don't know but a huge mistake in my estimation.

This thread included my cedia observations on the HC3000 and some discussions on the implementation of Brilliant Color on the HC3000


AVS Forum > Display Devices > Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3500 USD MSRP and Up
BrilliantColor&DynamicBlack, when?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=580082


Does anybody know the speed of the color wheel on the HC3000 yet?

Kosty

"The product sheet that Grubert posted says the chip is 16:9 or 1.78:1."

I'll bet they were just speaking loosely.

If it were 16:9 at 1280x768, the pixels would have to be rectangular, and then the AR for 1280x720 wouldn't be 16:9, and the AR for 1024x768 wouldn't be 4:3.

I would tend to think that the projector might offer a 1:1 maping option, in which 16:9 would be projected using 1280 x 720 pixels (leaving 48 rows turned off), and 4:3 would be projected using 1024 x 768 (leaving 256 columns off), for a really clean, unscaled image.

Am I missing something?

Barrie, W6DX

Thanks for your comments on the HC3000, Kosty. They pretty much mirror what I thought upon seeing it at CEDIA, but I'm reserving final judgment until I get one to put through the paces. Like you, the Mits people I talked to did not have any info on the color whell speed either.

Am I missing something?



Your thoughts are exactly what I'm thinking. I can't imagine it would be that difficult to implement this.

I would tend to think that the projector might offer a 1:1 maping option, in which 16:9 would be projected using 1280 x 720 pixels (leaving 48 rows turned off), and 4:3 would be projected using 1024 x 768 (leaving 256 columns off), for a really clean, unscaled image.

Am I missing something?
No. I think this is the whole reason that TI even built this chip, figuring it could go into hybrids as well as HT projectors. To be really advanced it should have a 1:1 option for 1280x720 and the ability to shift it up or down to decide which rows are off.

--Darin

Some people and I don't know why pawn over mit's more so than even sony lovers. I have owned a Mit CRT and one of their top of the line VCR's and they were the crappiest electronics I've ever owned. The Tube was shot in year 5 only displyed black and white with distortion all over the screen the VRC ate tapes for lunch and dinner and made sounds only god can define. I personally think Mit's is utter crap and I won't buy anything with their name on it. Someone else will have a 768P I'm sure and that's what I'll look at. just IMHO.

Mitsubishi RPTVs are fairly well regarded, I thought.

One thing you have to keep in mind is that it's not the same people who make every product line. Entirely different sections of the company work on projectors or VCRs or tube TVs or DVD players. It's really only Sony that has demonstrated such amazing consistency in screwing up every product they manufacture.

But no lens shift on what sounds like a fine combination of elements? How many living rooms forced to go with a ceiling mount will be running wires along the ceiling and wall?

The piano plus which had that switchable chip had one achilles heel: light spill. Otherwise the ability to switch aspect ratio at the projector made for marvelous flexibility with constant height. The thing to watch for in this projector is how it handles light spill.

If this is a 1:1 PJ for both 1280x720P and 1024X768 it will make for an excellent addtition to a HTPC. This will allow me to play all PC games in their best manner available. For instance many of the new PC games still do not support the widescreen resolutions. So i could play them in 1024X768. But many new games are allowing the user to enter widescreen resolutions that would do 1:1 as well..... I think they all eventually will go to 16:9/10 because of the widescreen LCD panels being shipped right now.

Great to have suport for all :)

Ah, but doesn't this projector have a "Quasi-lens shift"? 24 pixels up or down... That's what, a 3% lens shift? WOOHOO!

I talked to both the mitsubishi and texas instrument guys when I was at cedia.

The 720p 1280x768 dual use chip absolutely does 1280x720P 1to1 mapping and 1024X768 1to1 mapping for computer input.

It was designed to be used to support both 720p for home theater use and computer resolution for business projector / pc gaming. By only designing/producing one chip, TI could produce the chip at reduced cost.

The question is how the OEM's use its capabilities. It could be simple or complicated to switch between the two modes. I also am unsure on the the virtual lens shift of 48 pixels in the 720 p mode although the cene4home.de link looks like you can shift vertically when the HC3000 is in 16:9 mode.

I also am unsure if all pixels would be used for 4:3 video content as opposed for just the computer input, but that would seem to be a no-brainer to me.

Kosty

Looks like Cine4home has a review up. Grayscale tracking needs some help otb. Contrast looks like 2500 at D65. Overall very favorable.

Moe

For those who haven't seen it, a link to the translated Cine4home review was posted on the previous page here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6190370&&#post6190370).

Still no mention of wheel speed. Though with a rgbrgb wheel, it's likely at least 6x.

Hi,

Still no mention of wheel speed. Though with a rgbrgb wheel, it's likely at least 6x.

No, the mentioned, that they didn't have the time to measure the speed, but Mitsubishi told them it is 4x.

Ralph

Anyone have a prelim release date? Damn I thought I was ready to buy....now it seems I would be hasty if I don't see what is delivered in this unit.....

Damn.... :)


TJ

Mid October at the earliest to the end of October at the latest

I should have word 2-3 weeks out from their availability date.

1:1 720p and 1:1 1024x768 in the same PJ would be nice. I need to read the review to see how they implemented. This could be a great PJ for a geek like me :)

Review of the Review:
Faroudja processing. Center mounted lens. Brilliant Color Processing. Complete overscan adjustment or turn off completely. Better results than the H79 in color rendition? Rainbows still exist but not bad. All in all the HC3000 with HDTV signals obtains a picture experience new in each regard and earns thus the honor „hp ready“ also right.

After reading "OK attempting to read" this review I now have a new found understanding of where the Star Wars writers got their script for YODA :D.

But seriously, If this thing comes close to the info in this review i will have to see it for myself. At that price point and those strong words, this might be worth a personal review before I purchase a PJ.

Projector Specs PDF -- HERE (http://www.discsoft.de/Produkt_Pdfs/Heimkino_Beamer_Mitsubishi-HC3000.pdf)

PPS. I might add that I think this PJ does not look too bad either. Not as slick looking as the BenQ PE7700 which I really like the looks of, but not bad.

HC3000 should be arriving in late Nov from an email I just received..?

TJ

Cine4home review says that the motion artifacts are reduced but not completely eliminated. Is it too much to ask for a 48Hz operation mode (through VGA or HDMI) in a sub 3k level projector?

Kosha.... Yes! :)

I can stir the pot here and have a lot of fun....

Sony SXRD big news for 10K ppppsssshhhhhhhHH!

How about a DC3 Brilliant Color sub 3k 1 chipper DLP?????

Now, that is the big news from Cedia, not some overblown bloated bus of a projector that is using LCOS tech :D

Just kidding.... At least let me get my hood tucked into my flame retardant suit before letting it fly :D

ooooooo oooooo someone said something bad about "THE SONY" in the sub 3.5k forum... Lets go get him :D

Now that is the big news from Cedia not some overblown bloated bus of a projector that is using LCOS tech :D

We are lucky that the competition from Sony made TI/Mitsu bring this projector that is competitively priced.

Cine4home review says that the motion artifacts are reduced but not completely eliminated. Is it too much to ask for a 48Hz operation mode (through VGA or HDMI) in a sub 3k level projector?
If the Optoma H78DC3 drops below $3k you will have that (with 1280x720/48p through DVI at the least). I haven't checked whether 48Hz works with any other input.

--Darin

Kosha - Yeah I know. I was just having some fun with the folks around here that are drooling over "THE SONY" right now. If ya can't have fun what can ya have :D

Darin - I agree about the H78DC3 it is a nice PJ even for its current price. Lower its street by about 500+ dollars and you have a real deal. This Mitsu is interesting in that it offers what looks like alot of conveinence in setup options, connectivity and media supportability(PC Gaming). I think it may also cause a stir if it is close to the projected specs and ease of use.

If the h78dc3 drops below 3K any time soon I will s%^t a goose, and then buy one!

I called them today to see if they will upgrade unhappy 77 owners to a 78 by way of a light engine swap... and they said

if your 77 is less than 30 days old:

"You can upgrade to the EPH78, but it will cost you $3000.00. If you would like
to upgrade, please complete the attached RMA credit card form, and fax it to my
attention at the fax number below with a copy of your receipt or invoice showing
the date of purchase. I will then forward a RMA number. Write the RMA number
on the outside of the box and ship
your unit. When we receive your unit, we will then ship the new EPH78."


Optoma Technology, Inc.
715 Sycamore Drive
Milpitas, CA 95035

Fx: (408) 383-3701
E-mail:
Technical Support/Customer Service


Wow they feel that a H77 depreciates 66% in two weeks!!...and if you took them up on that offer you would end up paying 5k for a 78.....

I must of hit a newbie, that made the upgrade offer yesterday not knowing, then today was told to price me out of range....


Back to HC3000 topic, even though this unit looks very promising, we will be going back to "halos" outside of the 1:1 1280x720 mode, to the tune of 48 lines.

Not a big deal for me, because I have a full blackout wall, but if you have a fixed large wall screen and use a lot of zoom that halo could potentialy be annoying to some.







TJ

I don't know about a goose , but getting a 78dc3 in the $2500 area ,probably would cause a similar buying spree like the lt-150 did. Optoma could literally corner the sub- $3000 market. I know I would jump. Optoma , are you listening ? :)

If the h78dc3 drops below 3K any time soon I will s%^t a goose, and then buy one!

H78/H79 is not even in my list because of the lack of HDMI input. I wouldn't consider buying them even if their prices drop below 3k.

Edit: I won't be using projector speakers for audio.

{H78/H79 is not even in my list because of the lack of HDMI input. I wouldn't consider buying them even if their prices drop below 3k. }

Not many people in the HT crowd have a use for speakers in their projectors. DVI-I (hdcp) is essentially all you need. If you need the audio capability that hdmi provides,so be it. Must be other reasons.

There's an excellant review just posted in the Panny 900 thread. This truly is shaping into an exciting time for projector lovers with limited budgets. When the Mits 3000 ships,hopefully we'll have another "winner" to choose from. :)

At one time, my opinion was similar to Kosha's. I wouldn't consider a projector that didn't have HDMI, but as cubsfan pointed out, there must be other reasons. For me, those reasons included the need for a video cable run of 45' that included 22' of 2" conduit. As I understand the DVI cable spec, it was not originally designed for runs that long, although some cable manufacturers have reported success at that length. Runs of this length were within the HDMI spec and the smaller HDMI connector, compared to the larger DVI connector, might also be less hassle through the conduit. For awhile, I almost rejected the H78DC3 for its lack of HDMI. I'm shopping for a projector now and am considering the H78DC3 along with the HC3000. To me, the lack of an HDMI connector on the H78DC3 just means I have to buy an HDMI to DVI adaptor that otherwise wouldn't be necessary. As cubsfan noted, not many people have need to send audio to the projector. However, if the H78DC3 turns out to be the projector I want for video reasons, then the small additional cost of the adaptor is a consideration, but not a make or break decision.

when can we expect the first review of this machine?

At one time, my opinion was similar to Kosha's. I wouldn't consider a projector that didn't have HDMI, but as cubsfan pointed out, there must be other reasons. For me, those reasons included the need for a video cable run of 45' that included 22' of 2" conduit. As I understand the DVI cable spec, it was not originally designed for runs that long, although some cable manufacturers have reported success at that length. Runs of this length were within the HDMI spec and the smaller HDMI connector, compared to the larger DVI connector, might also be less hassle through the conduit. For awhile, I almost rejected the H78DC3 for its lack of HDMI. I'm shopping for a projector now and am considering the H78DC3 along with the HC3000. To me, the lack of an HDMI connector on the H78DC3 just means I have to buy an HDMI to DVI adaptor that otherwise wouldn't be necessary. As cubsfan noted, not many people have need to send audio to the projector. However, if the H78DC3 turns out to be the projector I want for video reasons, then the small additional cost of the adaptor is a consideration, but not a make or break decision.

The H-78 comes with the hdmi adaptor.

If the h78dc3 drops below 3K any time soon I will s%^t a goose, and then buy one!

I called them today to see if they will upgrade unhappy 77 owners to a 78 by way of a light engine swap... and they said

if your 77 is less than 30 days old:

"You can upgrade to the EPH78, but it will cost you $3000.00. If you would like
to upgrade, please complete the attached RMA credit card form, and fax it to my
attention at the fax number below with a copy of your receipt or invoice showing
the date of purchase. I will then forward a RMA number. Write the RMA number
on the outside of the box and ship
your unit. When we receive your unit, we will then ship the new EPH78."


Optoma Technology, Inc.
715 Sycamore Drive
Milpitas, CA 95035

Fx: (408) 383-3701
E-mail:
Technical Support/Customer Service


Wow they feel that a H77 depreciates 66% in two weeks!!...and if you took them up on that offer you would end up paying 5k for a 78.....

I must of hit a newbie, that made the upgrade offer yesterday not knowing, then today was told to price me out of range....


Back to HC3000 topic, even though this unit looks very promising, we will be going back to "halos" outside of the 1:1 1280x720 mode, to the tune of 48 lines.

Not a big deal for me, because I have a full blackout wall, but if you have a fixed large wall screen and use a lot of zoom that halo could potentialy be annoying to some.







TJ

I beleive Guitarman is offering the 77 upgrade for 150.00 +shipping....but this upgrade will not make the 77 into a 78dc3.

Earz, I hadn't looked close enough at the H78DC3 to notice if it included an HDMI adaptor. Thanks for letting me know that it does.

Isamu - try page 3; the babelfish link. This is probably a pre-production model.

{H78/H79 is not even in my list because of the lack of HDMI input. I wouldn't consider buying them even if their prices drop below 3k. }

Not many people in the HT crowd have a use for speakers in their projectors. DVI-I (hdcp) is essentially all you need. If you need the audio capability that hdmi provides,so be it. Must be other reasons.

At one time I thought exactly the same way, I even have a DVI input on my present projector but there are major differences in the video signal that can be transported over DVI and HDMI. Go check out the Panny s97s DVD player thread here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=463025&page=126&pp=30) and you will get an understanding of why HDMI is superior for video as well.

John :)

i hope bestbuy starts carrying this before my employee discount goes away :(

i think i'm gonna have to buy one of these

projectorpeople has the hc3000 on it's site now, it states dark chip 2. call for availability.

muncey

muncey,

If you check several posts ^^^ there is a link to the product PDF which clearly states DC3.

Click on the word HERE in my post above.

Also note the word at the top of the PDF "Tentative".

There is also THIS LINK (http://www.cinenow.com/us/press_release.php/id,69/) with some additional info.

projectorpeople has the hc3000 on it's site now, it states dark chip 2. call for availability.

Theprojectorplace is saying darkchip3. Call for availability.

Gez, this just gets more and more confusing.

ProjectorPeople (hometheaterpeople) has a link to this pdf file:

http://www.hometheaterpeople.com/SLIS/pdfs/Mitsubishi/MITHC3000U.pdf

which states it has BrilliantColor but is DarkChip2. Oh but it does mention "Digital Vertical Display Adjustment (equivalent to lens-shift)", so it seems you can run the projector in 720p native mode (disabling the 48 pixels) and shifting that amount either up or down. NOT lens shift, but handy for final tweaks.

Clear as mud yet?

Rich

Gez, this just gets more and more confusing.

ProjectorPeople (hometheaterpeople) has a link to this pdf file:

http://www.hometheaterpeople.com/SLIS/pdfs/Mitsubishi/MITHC3000U.pdf

which states it has BrilliantColor but is DarkChip2.

If they are correct, its time for me to say good-bye to TI/Mitsu. They are trying to sell the darkchip2 panels for $500 more than last year's darkchip2 models.
Back to Epson-LCD camp.

Both the U.S. spec sheet and press release I got at CEDIA clearly state DarkChip 3. All the posted information I've seen that refers to the DMD as a DC2 is taken from a few months ago when the new chip and ASIC was announced. It's my understanding that the HC3000 will be using the newer DC3 version of the 1280 X 768 DMD.

Ed. - Nope. See my next post.

If they are correct, its time for me to say good-bye to TI/Mitsu. They are trying to sell the darkchip2 panels for $500 more than last year's darkchip2 models.
Back to Epson-LCD camp.

Yes, disappointing if it truly is DC2/DC2+. It would really be a breakthrough for a DC3 model to MSRP below $3k. It sure is making me consider an AE900 or Z4 if I decide on LCD, or finding a much below MSRP H77 (I know, DC2+, but at least its a well known good machine).

I sure hope someone can prove it one way or another.

Cheers,

Rich

That is funny..... Maybe we should all make up our own spec_sheet.pdf and release it. It looks like they released multiple spec sheets and all different. :D

I like mine better cause it has DC3 :)

i really hope it's dark chip 3 but i'm not holding my breath.

muncey

Okay, just got off the phone with Mitsubishi and the product manager confirmed that the info in the preliminary spec sheet and the press release was a typo. The DMD is definitely DARKCHIP 2! Also, the MSRP is $3495 with a projected street price of $2995. Not good news. :(

thats a pretty drastic typo!

muncey

bye bye mitsubishi, this was your chance to dethrone optoma. oh well.

muncey

thats a pretty drastic typo!

muncey

Well, it's just replacing a "2" with a "3". :D

As a typo goes, it's a small one, but it's the effect that's drastic.

this is pretty sad news because of a typo of one number. they could have sold boatloads of these things w/ dark chip 3's in them. if they can't get thier press release right, i have little faith in them!

muncey

Man, I can not tell you how much that SUCKS!!!!

Thanks Mike for the clarification. If you ask me that is a high street even with the addition of Brilliant Color.

Can you say H78DC3?

Optoma Just moved back to the top of my "might buy" list.

$3495 for Darkchip 2 when D5 LCDs are priced so aggressively?
Bye bye Mitsubishi as well.

Mitsu ----- Are you Listening?

mike,
you could have sold a ton of these w/ dc3. by the way could you pm me if you have a physical shop i could visit, i work in O.C.

muncey

Ches111

i don't think they are listening.

muncey

I think it is way too late in the game to jump in with an unproven DC2 PJ. Just adding a couple of buzz words "Brilliant Color" will not bring me to the table. Looks like we will not see much competition for the H78/79 anytime soon which is sad.

Edited to satisfy munceys grammar checker :D

Chess111

that would be "2" words, or is it "3"?

muncey

does anybody know what the differences are between the DC2 and DC3 chips?Besides that the mirrors are closer together on the DC3.

i believe contrast ratio, fill ratio, and some kind of dimple fix as well as being a newer chip.

muncey

I believe the mirror speed is different too.

All DC2/DC2+ and older chip machines have serious motion artifact problem.

Given the street prices of DC2+ chip projectors...Optoma H27, H31, Infocus SP4805 etc...This spells doom for Mits, quite a margin in price no matter how good that Brilliant Color technology is capable of.

Another thought, Mitsubishi will probably be the only vendor with DC2+ projector at this coming CES 2006.

Mits, wake up and smell sumthin'.

I have a feeling this thread is going to get a lot less traffic very soon.....

Brilliant Color (especially if it is only using an RGBRGB color wheel, not even an RGBCYM one) surely isn't going to justify an MSRP of $3495 with the already inexpensive MT700/PE7770 clones, the rapidly falling H77's, and the H78DC3's rapidly becoming much more affordable.

Even such lofty items (ok, not that lofty) as Sony's new Ruby SXRD pj for $10k will help drive the prices of the H79's et al down. Its going to be an interesting 3-6 mos as far as prices go for good quality 720p pj's.

Rich

NeXT,

The PJs you mentioned are not in the same class as the Mitsu. The Mitsu is a 720P native Projector even though it is a DC2.

All of the ones you mentioned above are much less in price because they support 480P native.

when the 1080 dlp's come to market 720 dlp prices are going to plummet, on top of that there should be a lot of people dumping their 720 units.

muncey

muncey I agree,

My hope is that the 1080P PJs become mainstream and we soon see a PE7700/H78DC3 type PJ with the 1080P chip.

Back ON topic.... I think they may have to rethink their pricing for the HC3000 "ALOT".

How did Eckhart miss this? cine4home takes the PJs down to the boards and considering the uniqueness of the 1280x768 chip, you would figure he would investigate that and the new BC controller arrangement...

Well, still good numbers and a great prelim review, even comparing to a H79 says a lot, but at 3k they are doomed.....drop that puppy to 2200-2300, I might just bite......

TJ

I think that before people dismiss this pj simple because of the fact it has a DC2 there needs to be an accurate comparison between this and other DLP pj's in the same catagory such as the H78dc3/pe7700/H79/pe8720 just to name a few and after all its is 720p. In my opinion it's not just the chip that determines the picture, its the whole packadge ie optics/scaler and so on.

True, Not dismissing totally just moved lower on my list....

I will try to review all i can before I make a purchasing decision...

Mitsu ----- Are you Listening?


I'm sure Mitsubishi is listening, but it's not what they can do to change that.

Without a DC3 WXGA DMD from TI, how can any company produce a DC3 WXGA product? So, we should put more pressure on TI, the DMD maker, not the system maker. TI is simply protecting the current DC3 makers, whose MSRP is still over $10,000. I won't be surprised to see TI finally offer DC3 treatment to WXGA, but that myabe 2006 Q3 time frame for the 2nd generation WXGA DMD.

For now, the most affordable DC3 is still H78DC3, unless BENQ decides to do something drastically on their PE8720 ...

Back to HC3000, I wonder how does it compare to MT700/PE7700, assuming price very similar?

1. MT700/PE7700 is HD2+ DC2, 0.78", bigger mirror, HC3000 is DC2, 0.65", smaller mirror, but more resolution.
2. Both are LVDS driver, DDP3020 maybe faster load time than DDP1010?
3. HC3000 has Brilliant Color (it works, I saw the demo at CEDIA), MT700/PE7700 does not, although the image is already very good
4. HC3000 uses DDP3020 deinterlacing/scaling (?) vs. MT700 DCDi

If DDP3020 load time is faster than DDP1010, then HC3000 may have less PWM effect? But DCDi on MT700 is definitely better than DDP3020 (or is it?)

We will only know for sure when HC3000 hits the market in November?

This is disappointing news about the Mits. I have a NEC PG9+ and an XG 110LC CRT projectors (don't tell the CRT guys I was over here:)). I was watching this Mits closely, because I have a decision to make on whether to retube the XG or sell it. I will look in the direction of the Panny now. If it can come close to my XG, then I may lean that way. I may also live with the PG (it is still in great condition) and see what happens at CES. Any way you slice it, I will probably make the switch once DirecTV makes me get a new box.

Eric

If DDP3020 load time is faster than DDP1010, then HC3000 may have less PWM effect?

Reminds me of the time when I was trying to run Windows XP in a Pentium II machine with 64MB onboard ram memory and encountered the worst performance. Without faster DC3 chip the performance improvement of DDP3020 (or DDP3030?) over DDP1010 will be limited.

I am unsubscribing from this thread. What does this pj now offer that justifies it's price?

The review says it has less motion artifacts than other Hd2+ machines, it has the contrast of a H77, and it handles banding better than a H79 according to Eckhart?

Those are great leaps on a non-DC3 machine, but the price point needs to be 2200-2500 to be competitive moving forward.

TJ

Without a DC3 WXGA DMD from TI, how can any company produce a DC3 WXGA product? So, we should put more pressure on TI, the DMD maker, not the system maker. TI is simply protecting the current DC3 makers, whose MSRP is still over $10,000. I won't be surprised to see TI finally offer DC3 treatment to WXGA, but that myabe 2006 Q3 time frame for the 2nd generation WXGA DMD.

Then, TI should be prepared to take a major hit on their market share. If the D5 lcd projectors live up to their expectations, I expect a lot of DLP fans to switch over.

If I know one thing about marketing people ... it is that they hate to lose market share (much more than they hate losing money). So, I do expect some quick MSRP revisions ...

I am unsubscribing from this thread. What does this pj now offer that justifies it's price?

Perhaps they think, the Mitsubishi brand name can fool us ;)

The review says it has less motion artifacts than other Hd2+ machines, it has the contrast of a H77, and it handles banding better than a H79 according to Eckhart?

Eckhart may very well received a machine with darkchip3. I don't understand how Eckhart missed DC2 for DC3 either.

Eckhart may very well received a machine with darkchip3. I don't understand how Eckhart missed DC2 for DC3 either.

He only previewed a sample for a couple days, so I doubt he could take the thing apart.

He only previewed a sample for a couple days, so I doubt he could take the thing apart.


Yes, actually we only had it for one day. That is why we mentioned several times that this was just a preliminary test with first impressions and results. It wasnt the final version either (as mentioned in the review).

About the chip, this is the first time this chip finds its way into a homecinema projector. All technical specs we got from Mitsubishi mentioned DC3. And yes, we did not have the time to disassemble the machine ;-)

And the first impressions and results we had were all very promising. So I dont understand why a "2" or a "3" in the technical data makes such a big difference for the value you get for your money.

IMHO it should be about the picture quality and not about marketing names of TI. :-)


Regards,
Ekkehart

I have read somewhere that darkchip2 were introduced together with fast track pixel technology. Can someone verify whether this WXGA darkchip2 uses FTP or not.

I am still holding out hope it is a darkchip3.

The TI guys gave me the impression that all their newer .65 DMD's that could use the 3020 chip all used the Darkchip 3 enhancements. Maybe the confusion is that it is called HD2+ Darkchip 3.

If it is a typo then the US Mits guys and the German Mits guys and the Australian guys also got it wrong on their spec sheets. It wouldn't shock me that the Mits sales managers could still make a mistake (maybe?)

The darkchip 3 enhancements are all manufacturing based improvements and the HC3000 DMD is based on a new production DMD. It doen't make sense to me that they would fall back to darkchip 2 processes.

The Japanese site earlier posted stated 4000:1 improvements, those were the Darkchip 3 marketing points.

I still can't wait to see this thing, but I will be disapointed if the DMD fell back to darkchip 2 enhancements.

Are there any other front projectors out there that use a 720p chip with darkchip3 with 1280 x 768 resolution? TI has only one of these dual use chips in their inventory.

The reasons I am hung up on hd2 to dc3 are not for the "latest and greastest" perspective.

I have read that the DC3 is significantly better in the areas of 1 chip panning artifacts, they have a better fill rate, and for the same lamp source they squeeze out higher brightness and have a better dynamic range.

Hell call it DC1 and hit these points of interest and I would buy it...it's not about the name, it just happens to be the name of the chip that meets my requirements.

TJ

I am still holding out hope it is a darkchip3.

The TI guys gave me the impression that all their newer .65 DMD's that could use the 3020 chip all used the Darkchip 3 enhancements. Maybe the confusion is that it is called HD2+ Darkchip 3.

HD2+ = DarkChip 2, so I doubt they would use the two together.

If it is a typo then the US Mits guys and the German Mits guys and the Australian guys also got it wrong on their spec sheets. It wouldn't shock me that the Mits sales managers could still make a mistake (maybe?)

I agree, except that this came from the Product manager, not the sales manager. That being said, I had a Panasonic product manager tell me a few years ago that the Panasonic S97 DVD player absolutely would not be using Faroudja deinterlacing, even though all the product specs sheets and brochures said so. They even changed their press release to leave out the Faroudja reference after he told me that. Of course, three months later the DVD player hit the market and lo and behold, it had Faroudja. Go figure. :rolleyes:

The thing is that every press release and spec listing on that 1280 X 768 DMD lists it as DC2. :confused:

I am still holding out hope it is a darkchip3.

The Japanese site earlier posted stated 4000:1 improvements, those were the Darkchip 3 marketing points.

I still can't wait to see this thing, but I will be disapointed if the DMD fell back to darkchip 2 enhancements.

Are there any other front projectors out there that use a 720p chip with darkchip3 with 1280 x 768 resolution? TI has only one of these dual use chips in their inventory.

Mitsubishi HC900 576p projector already claiming 4000:1 last year, using a Darkchip2 1024x576 DMD (same DMD as used in Optoma H57). Their 4000:1 peak On/Off ratio is based on the brightest white when IRIS is full open vs. darkest black when IRIS is tightly closed, but their IRIS is not auto like HS50. THat is what gives HC900 the 4000:1. Based on the same engine/ID/optical system, with the same DMD size, no wonder HC3000 claims the same contrast ratio. So, 4000:1 does not say much about which chip they are using. SHARP Z10000 HD2+ machine used to claim 5500:1 contrast ratio, is it a DC3? NO! Just again use the IRIS to achieve better spec on paper. (I"m not discounting Z10000, which is a very nice projector)

Again, like I said, unless TI has a DC3 WXGA DMD, no manufacture can produce one. And IF, a big IF, TI has this new WXGA at DC3, wouldn't you think that many if not all DLP manufacture will flock to use this new DC3 WXGA?

I believe many more manufactures will be announcing WXGA DLP video soon, so stay tuned!

IMHO it should be about the picture quality and not about marketing names of TI. :-)


I certainly agree with this.

If DDP3020 and the new WXGA chip somewhat provides faster loading technology, than its HD2+ or DC3 counterparts (which all used DDP1010), together with Brilliant Color, they may provide some nice pictures and better images to those that are sensitive to panning artifacts. Nevertheless, if the price point is right, this combination (DDP3020 + WXGA) could be a star in the sub-$3000 projector, be it DC2 or DC3.

Of course, I would love to have a DC3 version of WXGA with DDP3020/Brilliant Color, but maybe that's too much for high priced DC3 projectors to handle? If TI does that this year, I beleive there will be many unhappy dealers and/or manufactures who enjoys the DC3 margins now in the market place.

I still look forward to TI to release a 2nd generation WXGA with DC3 next year around CEDIA.

Mitsubishi HC900 576p projector already claiming 4000:1 last year, using a Darkchip2 1024x576 DMD (same DMD as used in Optoma H57). Their 4000:1 peak On/Off ratio is based on the brightest white when IRIS is full open vs. darkest black when IRIS is tightly closed, but their IRIS is not auto like HS50. THat is what gives HC900 the 4000:1.


No, the white segment in the color wheel gave it a high on/off contrast. Actually, the HC900 is capable of 3400:1 WITHOUT changing the IRiS.



Based on the same engine/ID/optical system, with the same DMD size, no wonder HC3000 claims the same contrast ratio.


Nope, the HC3000 sample we had was capable of 3600:1 WITHOUT white segment (it doesnt have one) and WITHOUT changing the IRIS...


Of course as usual.. these figures are not at 6500K....


Regards,
Ekkehart

Mitsubishi has destroyed me with this one. I have had my "focus" on the 7205 for some time now. Well, I'll get back to that in a minute.

I really like Mitsubishi as I have been using the XD50U "minimits" for a year now in the harshest environment. I am currently serving in Iraq and I use this PJ everyday. During the day I occasionally give briefs on it. On the average, I watch at least 1 movie per night. Sometimes, I set up a board outside my housing unit and view movies with other soldiers. That thing gets full of sand and dust like you would not believe. That PJ has never let me down. It has been a morale lifesaver for me. Many soldiers, like me, are planning to put together home theaters when we return in November. This is based on the experiences we’ve had with the XD50U.

So, when I started looking for a PJ, the first PJs I considered were Mitsubishis. As I did more and more research, I found that I wanted a 16:9, DLP, WXGA projector for SDTV, HDTV, DVD, PC, games, the works. My price range was and is under $4000. I was sad to see that Mit did not have one. My searching came to rest on the IF 7205.

Having my heart pretty much set on the 7205, Mitsubishi introduces this HC3000. Talk about a monkey wrench! WOW! This is going to be a real nail biter for me. They are comparable in price. Contrast of the Mit is almost double. Most of the other stats are in line with the 7205. I am trying not to get too excited. I really hope this PJ is released soon so I can hear what people have to say about it. I don’t want to toss the 7205 away as I believe it has proven its worth, but I can't ignore this new PJ because of my attachment to this company and their product.

I was a little taken back by the DC3 controversey, but it must not make that much of a difference in my opinion. If it did, the people reviewing the PJ would have said "this doesn't measure up to other DC3 PJs" If you can't immediately tell the difference between watching a DC2 and a DC3 PJ, then what's the advantage besides saying “I have a DC3 and you don’t”? I’m not paying the extra cash to be able to say that. In fact, some said the 3000 out performed DC3 PJs in some ways.

Price.. I am still unclear on what the MSRP is on this PJ. I imagine that it will be comparative to other 720p, DLP machines. Even at $3500, it is less than the 7205. It is not fair to compare the 3000 to PJs with less resolution.

I can see why lens shift would be important to a couple of people, but it shouldn't be an issue for most. I will simply set it up, see where the picture is shining, and then put the screen there. DONE! Maybe I'm oversimplifying this, but it seems to be a waste to have a feature that you use once.

When I look at reviews of PJs from Mit with the same design, I see lots of happy owners. That doesn't mean that the 3000 will be the same, but it shows a good track record.

So, that is where I am in my decision making process. Any words of wisdom that could help me in this process would be greatly appreciated.

-----------------------------------------
I have 2 concerns at this time........

Why is there a filter in this PJ? All of the other Mit PJs that are similar in design do not have filters. Is the light engine not sealed? If not, that would be major.

The HC3000 is not 1080p compatible like the 7205 is (small concern).

Have a good day!
-Rob

"The king is dead. Long live the king"

Unless I am wrong, one of the greatest advantages of a DC3 over Hd2+ machines is
the DC3 chip has a faster mirror speed for much smoother pans and fill rate.

I have read that all Hd2+ machines have panning issues.

I unfortunately see it and I am very bothered by it, it is almost bad enough that action movies are a chore to watch.

Hopefully when i finally get my Dc3 machine I find that issue resolved.


but Eckhart ( who probably has the best and most unbiased reviews out there) has said the Hc3000 prelim model has made great strides and draws a superior comparison in some regards to the H79..which is a huge statement


TJ

Strange.. Using that XD50U, I've watched many action movies with about 15-20 soldiers.

1. No one ever noticed any kind of "rainbows" even with the 2x color wheel.

2. No one ever noticed any panning problems. Every so often (I would guess 1 in 15 movies) you would briefly see an artifact or two during a movie, but very rare. I’m not sure what type of chip is in it, but its is certainly not new.

Maybe we are just not picky. All I know is that we all thoroughly enjoy watching.

Strange.. Using that XD50U, I've watched many action movies with about 15-20 soldiers.

1. No one ever noticed any kind of "rainbows" even with the 2x color wheel.

2. No one ever noticed any panning problems. Every so often (I would guess 1 in 15 movies) you would briefly see an artifact or two during a movie, but very rare. I’m not sure what type of chip is in it, but its is certainly not new.

Maybe we are just not picky. All I know is that we all thoroughly enjoy watching.

Most people don't seem to see RBE or panning artifacts on 1 chip DLP. Unfortunately for those who do see them, they create distraction and/or fatigue. If you don't see the effects, just smile and enjoy the show ;)

Unless I am wrong, one of the greatest advantages of a DC3 over Hd2+ machines is
the DC3 chip has a faster mirror speed for much smoother pans and fill rate.

I have read that all Hd2+ machines have panning issues.

I'm currently using an older NEC LT-240 XGA projector. I've never seen an HD2+ in action. Would the panning artifacts be worse than or equivalent to what I'm getting now?

Josh,

In terms of motion, the Lt240k I owned handled fast pans and action sequences MUCH better than my brief ownership of the Mt700 Hd2+ machine.

It must be the 5x color wheel speed and the mirrors inability to keep up.

For instance Mitsubishi's solution to the panning on their H77 clone was to implement an option to go back to 4x in the service menu, which also reduced the contouring slightly.


if you are not rainbow sensitive..a 4x machine will be fine. I wonder just how much saturation is lost by a 1x change, but i know I could not live long term with a unit that pans like that...it is very distracting and artificial looking to me.

it looks like when they cut a 1.85 movie to 4:3 and you watch it on a 4:3 set....you know when it pans...within the frame? just like that.


I must tell you Josh, the 240k was a great machine, but you will be amazed at the difference...it was staggering....believe me....

side by side the 240k looked like a 2nd gen LCD....seriously...


TJ

On a side note, I was just thinking about the RBE Panning situation?

Some people don't see them some think the ones who do are crazy?

Agreed... but I just wondered if the people that see the panning and or RBE have a higher eye "refresh rate"

I say this because if I run my CRT under 75hz I can catch scan lines and notice the picture less "static".

I am not terribly tweaky, but when I watch movies I want the smoothest, cleanest image.

Sucks to be able to see the panning.....RBE I see here and there but it is not that bad to make me want a lcd.

TJ

Please delete sorry
You can delete this post yourself. Just going into Edit, click the "Delete Message" radio button above the message and then the "Delete this Message" button.

--Darin

I must tell you Josh, the 240k was a great machine, but you will be amazed at the difference...it was staggering....believe me....

side by side the 240k looked like a 2nd gen LCD....seriously...

What projector are you using now? I've been holding out for affordable 720p models, and was thinking this one sounded promising.

TJ's "between projectors" right now, but he used to have a Toshiba MT700 (clone of the BenQ PE7700). You can see his story on that thread.

Panning artifact and rainbows are different beasts.

Rainbows are sensitivity dependent.
Panning artifacts (AKA banding / motion dithering / clayface / watercolor effect / false contour / posterization / solarization) is there for everyone to see.

I have a BenQ 8700, which shows posterization on pans. If you are at all familiar with how a pan looks at the cinema, you'll notice something is amiss.

Panning artifacts (AKA banding / motion dithering / clayface / watercolor effect / false contour / posterization / solarization) is there for everyone to see.

Any movie/DVD scenes that are particularly good examples of this?

Josh,
Mike's right...I am between PJs right now...:) I can tell you the Mits sight unseen will be a vast improvement over the 240....HUGE.

A friend of mine came over with his 4805 he bought at Sam's and I was saying to myself " oh, cool a little DLP, ahh 848x480, ohhh that's going to look like crap" all aloof and ignorant.

I had my 240k with the anamorphic lens hung, he turned that little beast on and my opinion between business projectors and HT units changed in the time it took the lamp to get to temp.

2k- lt240k
800.00 anamorphic lens

1k- 4805 desolated my picture in every area but rez....every one.


So the reason I say this is you can not compare by memory, you have to see them side by side to see how drastic it is....

Any 720p HT DLP unit will make you happy trust me...but you have to nail down the motion artifact and see if it bothers you...otherwise you might be inbetween PJs like me :)

I am just hoping for a H78 price break....200 dollars more and I am buying....

PS:
Check the H77 threads upstairs for some good sources of "panning" those guys are all over it :)


TJ

Novice question...

Could someone explain to me the difference between a .8" DLP and a .7" dlp chip (and please don't say .1"). The 3000 has a .7" and most others have .8". I just want to know what it means; same, better, worse.

Is there a thread that goes into detail on this?

Any movie/DVD scenes that are particularly good examples of this?

The classic example (first mentioned, I think, by forum member Orangelo) is LOTR - Fellowship of the Ring (chap 28 in R2, don't know about R1). It is the scene where the fellowship enters the Mines of Moria, all dark, then Gandalf lights the end of his staff. Check the faces of Legolas, Pippin, Sam, as they scroll in front of the camera, especially as they move out of the frame.

Personally, I use Dark City, at the beginning, when the leading character (played by Rupert Graves) gets out of the bathroom. Then it cuts to a POV shot scanning the bedroom, right to left. You'll get posterization on the green wall right by the lamp.

Personally, I use Dark City, at the beginning, when the leading character (played by Rupert Graves) gets out of the bathroom.

That's actually Rufus Sewell, FYI.

Thanks for the examples.

That's actually Rufus Sewell, FYI.

Thanks for the examples.


Doh! Thank you for correcting my mixup.

Novice question...

Could someone explain to me the difference between a .8" DLP and a .7" dlp chip (and please don't say .1"). The 3000 has a .7" and most others have .8". I just want to know what it means; same, better, worse.

Is there a thread that goes into detail on this?

That question is still out there for someone kind enough to answer it.

Also, I was curious how the HC3000 beats the HC2000 in all specs and is less than 1/3 the price. It sounds too good to be true. Am I missing something?

That question is still out there for someone kind enough to answer it.

Also, I was curious how the HC3000 beats the HC2000 in all specs and is less than 1/3 the price. It sounds too good to be true. Am I missing something?

Projector prices are somewhat artificial and not necessarily related to their performance determined worth but more on how they are marketed. Runco for example is famous for offering only thirty-five cents on the dollar relative to bottom-line projector performance. The HC2000 has found it's way into bricks and mortar showrooms where it sells for twice the price of the Optoma H77 which is the identical projector. There are many people who refuse to make a projector purchase unless they can first see a demo and have a local merchant they can hold accountable if they need service or have a problem. Those inclusions in a purchase drive the price up 100% or more. That said the HC2000 is a more substantial projector that is more expensive to manufacture. Whereas the HC3000 is built on a cheap business projector platform the HC2000 is built more like a high-end home theater projector and includes such features as power zoom, power focus, and vertical lens shift.

Lenny Eckian

freind of mine is in the PJ market right now and I have to go over to his house on sunday to help him work on his theater, Im trying to convince him to get the H78, and there is gonna be another guy there that is trying to convince him to get the HC3000, this guy is telling him to stay away from commercial grade projectors like optoma "I cant wait to throw the HC2000/H77 in his face", so basically he wants both of us there to debate PJ's because he is going to decide which to buy next week, after reading this I am really gonna try to push him to get the H78 on the basis that the Mitsu is new and untested so to speak, and seems to be more of a go between for Business or HT use whereas the H78 is made for HT use

i wouldn't count out the mitsu yet, those german guys had it for a day and say it was close to the h78/79. maybe your friend should wait for the mitsu to become available and make a choice then. after all it's almost a grand less than the h78.

muncey

I understand that, but He HAS to decide on a PJ within the next 2 weeks so he has his power outlet and conduit and backing right where the PJ goes as his drywall is going up very soon, I know I know, I told him to get a general Idea and only decide what PJ to get when he is ready to hang it, but he is the most anal person and his outlet and everything have to perfectly close to the PJ, this is a guy that washes his riding lawn mower with soapy water after each use, he just had this house built and everytime it rained during construction he would go out there with a shopvac when the rain stopped and vaccum the water off of his plywood subfloors in the house, NO BULLSH!T HERE it would sometimes take him 2-3 hours, he really needs to smoke some pot or something

doesn't sound like any projector will satisfy him.
too bad though, i think these 720p machines are going to plummet price wise when 1080 chips come to market.

muncey

doesn't sound like any projector will satisfy him.
too bad though, i think these 720p machines are going to plummet price wise when 1080 chips come to market.

muncey

That's exactly why I'm getting the DV10 now for my first projector. Within a few years we'll have 3 chip 720p and 1 chip 1080p units in the $3000 range. XSRD may even be in the range by then as well.

No sense spending too much now for something that will be significantly upgraded so soon IMO. The DV10 will still have a place because it's so portable after the upgrade.

If we had the money to upgrade so quickly, we'd be buying the Ruby or C3X or something in the ultra-high end instead. :D

Can the initial reviewers request or suggest a 48Hz operation mode with this machine? I am not sure whether the addition of 48Hz operation mode is a software or a hardware issue. But making this an option would definitely help in reducing motion artifacts.

I went to PJ People and was looking at the HC3000 IT does say DarkChip 2 on there, but it also says TRUE HIGH DEFINITION 720p Projectoer, whats up with that, are they trying to claim that projectors like the H78-9 , the Mt700, the 7700, the AE700 are NOT HD PJ's??

It's just marketing-speak in the Mits product sheet. Pay no attention to it.

I went to PJ People and was looking at the HC3000 IT does say DarkChip 2 on there, but it also says TRUE HIGH DEFINITION 720p Projectoer, whats up with that, are they trying to claim that projectors like the H78-9 , the Mt700, the 7700, the AE700 are NOT HD PJ's??

No. They're saying its the first one to use BrilliantColor.
The first 720P high definition DLP® projector designed using TrueVision™ Image Processing with BrilliantColor™.

In the downloadable product sheet, it says "true high definition", but there's no reason to pay any attention to that.

The 768p chip used in this machine is supposed to make it more HTPC user friendly than the other 720p machines. I don't understand why they don't include 48Hz operation mode or any other mode for that matter.
I think that's the only thing going for H78/H79 (other than DC2 vs. DC3) that you can synchronize the display to any refresh rate.

"Could someone explain to me the difference between a .8" DLP and a .7" dlp chip "

The .7" is a later generation of chips with smaller pixels, and therefore cheaper to fab.

At dlp.com you can probably find more info, including associated driver chips which affect performance.

"ut He HAS to decide on a PJ within the next 2 weeks so he has his power outlet and conduit and backing right where the PJ goes as his drywall is going up very soon,"

There should be a range of throw distances for these pj's that overlap, i.e., outlet locations that will work for both pj's.

"ut He HAS to decide on a PJ within the next 2 weeks so he has his power outlet and conduit and backing right where the PJ goes as his drywall is going up very soon,"

There should be a range of throw distances for these pj's that overlap, i.e., outlet locations that will work for both pj's.
He might also want to design the theater with possible future upgrades in mind. Use a long backing to accomodate a range of throw distances and put the outlet in the middle.

I was in Mitsubishi booth today, at Tokyo, the 2005 CEATEC show (the Japanese equivalent to CES), I picked up a printed HC3000 leterature, and it says "Open/close IRIS" in a way I'm guessing that it means two-position IRIS.

I ran into a Mitsubishi engineer whom I knew way back, I asked him is this Dynamic Black, the automated IRIS, he said, no, it's manual, and only two position.

The printed material says:
IRIS OPEN, 1000 ANSI lumen, 2700:1 contrast
IRIS tightly closed, 400 ANSI lumen, 4000:1 contrast

The demo was quite nice, they showed an HD clip with a beautiful lady in swinsuit, lots of sun shine and skin tone, very nice. Then they showed a "steamboy" clip from DVD, very film like, well balanced images.

They did not show Brilliant Color like they did at CEDIA. I would assume the BC is on for the demo ...

Open/closed Iris ehhh? ? Interresting..

That may be ideal for my setting. Open iris with some ambient light, and closed for pitch black viewing, although 400ANSI does seem a bit dim.

Is there a more solid release date on this yet (in US)?

I am very anxious to see some user reviews. I will keep waiting patiently in the meantime. Like I have a choice.

I was in Mitsubishi booth today, at Tokyo, the 2005 CEATEC show (the Japanese equivalent to CES), I picked up a printed HC3000 leterature, and it says "Open/close IRIS" in a way I'm guessing that it means two-position IRIS.

Any closure on whether it has DC3 ?

Projector Central has a note up that says they are currently evaluating this model and a few others. They expect to have reviews ready by the end of next week.

Everywhere I have looked with the exception of ProjectorCentral has said DC2

I was told DC2 by the Mits product manager a couple of pages ago here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6230822&&#post6230822).

Everywhere I have looked with the exception of ProjectorCentral has said DC2

Link Please!

Everwhere I look says DC3 and a $2995 MSRP. Regardless of what some product manager says. Evan is reveiwing the PJ right now. If it were DC2, wouldn't they have corrected their site yet? I am anxious to hear what Evan has to say. The update on PJC said the review would be done "by the end of the week", but I'm not so optomistic that will be the case. In the meantime I will wait patiently and read reviews for the Panny.

Actually DC2/DC3/DC45 doesn't mean anything to me. Show me that it out performs other PJs in it's class and I will be all over it.

rcrymes,

Not tru about PC. I was one of those that bought a benq 6200 last year when it just came otu. PC specs said 3X color wheels but benq later restated as 2X.

Yes, I see rainbows, but not sure if there is that much difference betweem 2X vs. 3X, but the PC specs were wrong - that was the point.

Link Please!

Everwhere I look says DC3 and a $2995 MSRP. Regardless of what some product manager says.

Look through the rest of this thread. Mits gave out press releases an preliminary spec sheets at CEDIA stating DC3. However, all the information from TI on the new DMD (when it was announced at Infocomm) used in the Mits lists it as a DC2. I finally called Mits about it and was told that the prelim spec sheet and press release were wrong. This was the product manager responsible for the HC3000, so I'm not sure why you would think he's not creditable.

Here's (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6195489#post6195489) one link from a couple of pages ago.

Regardless, as you said, it doesn't matter whether it's DC2 or DC3 if the performance is superior.

Regardless, as you said, it doesn't matter whether it's DC2 or DC3 if the performance is superior.

Your right Mike what matters is the performance.

Thanks for the feedback.

Yikes! I don't know how I missed that post with the sheet soooo big. I'm on satellite and sometimes have trouble getting the "whole picture". That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.

EDIT: Wait a minute. No fair. That's a different thread! Someone should paste that screen on this thread where it belongs.

I hope Evan gets on with it. I would certainly think that he would mention the type of chip in the review. Right now I will expect a DC2, and if for some reason it turns out to be DC3, then it would be a pleasant surprise.

I have no doubt that specs can get screwed no matter what site you look on. I would hope that if PC knows of this descrepency, they would change it.

My price range is between $3000 and $4000 and I lean toward DLP, but could be swayed if LCDs in this price range turn out to be more ideal for me. I plan my HT to be a livingroom setup for HD sports, TV, DVD,Games, etc. Windows are not an issue as they are completely subdued. I will want ambient light at times, especially during sporting events. There is a doorway on the RIGHT SIDE WALL about 20' back from the screen that lets in very little indirect sunlight from the kitchen. I don't know how much of an issue this will be. A hanging door is always an option. My point and/or question is. Which 720p PJ would be ideal for this. Up to this point I was pretty sold on the IF7205, but now I'm thinking the HC3000 could be a real alternative, not to mention cheaper. Any thoughts are appreciated.

Serious question: I will be home from Iraq in less than 30 days (god willing) after being here a year. I have a wife and 10 month old son waiting for me in NJ. I am almost as excited about setting up our home theater as I am about seeing them again. DOES THAT MAKE ME A BAD PERSON??? Maybe its just a distraction that I needed to get me through. I don't know.

Well, hopefully Evan's got the right information from Mits, as he'd be hard put to determine which DMD is in there otherwise. I'm on the list to get one for review, but I don'y know how soon that will be.

rcrymes, stay safe man. Hope you and all your buddies are back home soon. :)

when is this pj scheduled to hit stores in the US?

It seems that Evan saw some weakness with the Panasonic and the Mits which were sent to him. This has delayed his reviews. I emailed him and he stated that he does not want to make judgements until he received second units for testing. The Mits has arrived and the Panny is on its way. I respect him for waiting. This does not mean that anything was wrong the the orignal units, Evan just wasn'ts to be sure before he posts his reviews on Projector Central.

Thanks Mike. We are all comming home together. I've been very lucky, aside from one of my soldiers getting shrapnel from a mortar. He is ok. He's just going to have problems at the airport from now on when going through the metal detectors. I'm happy for what we have accomplished and even more happy that we get to come home.


Thanks for the info Rwestley. I will stop looking so ofen.

I am almost as excited about setting up our home theater as I am about seeing them again. DOES THAT MAKE ME A BAD PERSON???

heh... So long as it's just almost as excited, I think you're OK. Now, if you'd said you were more excited about the HT than the family, then you might be a bad person. As it is, you're good.

Just heard that the HC3000 will be available on the street in 7-10 days.

Anybody heard more info on this PJ?

Any other reviews available or pending besides projector central's or cine4home 's?

Product brochure here (http://www.plasmacity.com/PROJECTOR/MITSUBISHI/PDF/MITHC3000U.pdf).

I guess that brochure answers the DC2 question.

Certainly seems to ;)

I don't think the hc3000 is going to be worth the price...i'd rather spend the extra 700$ and buy a h78 w/ dc3 tech... not dc2 like the hc3000 has...i've seen that chip in action --its really cool.