Amen to that, Bob :)

Mark

Ruben,

I have a few questions about your starred ceiling if you don't mind. I have re-read that section of the thread and can't find the answers.

1. Did you end up using the 1/4" Masonite board? The pictures look thicker than 1/4"

2. It looks like your joists are 24" on center. If so, is it sagging at all?

3. Somewhere you stated you used brads, did the velcro not hold?

4. Does the lightbox generate much heat?

5. When you researched star patterns did you find other sources other than the material supplier?

6. Regarding the shooting star, I saw how you put it in but how do you get the light pattern to go in a single direction? (oops, found the info)

7. Now that it is up on the ceiling would you do anything different? How do the seams look?, etc.

8. Still have the extra fiber?

Thanks

Joe

1) Yes I used 1/4" Masonite

2) No sagging Issues.

3) I used Brads because I didn't want to chance the Velcro. I think the Velcro would of been fine, but I have no reason to pull these panels down in the future.

4) The Light box does get Hot when on full power. I rigged mine so I can dim it, so when a movie is playing the stars are not distracting.

5) I love the way it came out. It fascinates everyone who walks in the theater as well. I am still going to do some real thin black GoM strips to hide the seams. The seams are slightly noticable during bright scenes in a movie.

Ruben

Ruben,

I have a few questions about your starred ceiling if you don't mind. I have re-read that section of the thread and can't find the answers.

1. Did you end up using the 1/4" Masonite board? The pictures look thicker than 1/4"

2. It looks like your joists are 24" on center. If so, is it sagging at all?

3. Somewhere you stated you used brads, did the velcro not hold?

4. Does the lightbox generate much heat?

5. When you researched star patterns did you find other sources other than the material supplier?

6. Regarding the shooting star, I saw how you put it in but how do you get the light pattern to go in a single direction? (oops, found the info)

7. Now that it is up on the ceiling would you do anything different? How do the seams look?, etc.

8. Still have the extra fiber?

Thanks

Joe

1) Yes I used 1/4" Masonite

2) No sagging Issues.

3) I used Brads because I didn't want to chance the Velcro. I think the Velcro would of been fine, but I have no reason to pull these panels down in the future.

4) The Light box does get Hot when on full power. I rigged mine so I can dim it, so when a movie is playing the stars are not distracting.

5) I love the way it came out. It fascinates everyone who walks in the theater as well. I am still going to do some real thin black GoM strips to hide the seams. The seams are slightly noticable during bright scenes in a movie.

Ruben

Are both direction of seams noticeable?

Joe

Well yesterday was my official opening of my theater. I had 8 friends over and the opening movie was King Kong followed by Lord of War and then Saw 2 at the request of the friends that were over. After those we watched some HDnet so they could appreciate the HD quality even further.

Everyone was blown away by the picture quality and sound along with the design of the theater. I used my new weave audio transparent screen as the screen of choice. I had the Dazian CCC up previously and my friends commented on how dark it was when I compared it to the new weave.

Well yesterday was my official opening of my theater. I had 8 friends over and the opening movie was King Kong followed by Lord of War and then Saw 2 at the request of the friends that were over. After those we watched some HDnet so they could appreciate the HD quality even further.

Everyone was blown away by the picture quality and sound along with the design of the theater. I used my new weave audio transparent screen as the screen of choice. I had the Dazian CCC up previously and my friends commented on how dark it was when I compared it to the new weave.

Congrats Ruben! The nice thing about this hobby as opposed to some others out there, is 90% of the population loves a good movie. And that means there are a lot of people who you can share all of your hard work with.

The journey of course is fun, but sitting back with friends and watching them getting blown away is the real cheese at the end of the maze.

Best of luck on the next project!

Well yesterday was my official opening of my theater. I had 8 friends over and the opening movie was King Kong followed by Lord of War and then Saw 2 at the request of the friends that were over. After those we watched some HDnet so they could appreciate the HD quality even further.

Everyone was blown away by the picture quality and sound along with the design of the theater. I used my new weave audio transparent screen as the screen of choice. I had the Dazian CCC up previously and my friends commented on how dark it was when I compared it to the new weave.

So it must be AQUARIUM time, huh?

Joe

Where are the freaking new pictures!!!!

Where are the freaking new pictures!!!!

I think Ruben said there'd be a professional photographer taking some snaps of the room. He might be waiting for that so it'll bowl you over twice as much. :-)

Ruben, I didn't even know that you had put all the chairs in the room. Did you decide to keep what you had or get some other model?

Ruben, I didn't even know that you had put all the chairs in the room. Did you decide to keep what you had or get some other model?

I kept the chairs, everyone said I needed to, so I listened. :) All the chairs are still not in the theater. I have the 3 Front chairs in and the other 4 are still in the boxes.

Also, I am still wiring the rack, and it is taking so long because I am waiting for a few components and wires to arrive.

Also, my helper labled the column grill frames and I cannot find the matching #'s on the columns. I tried to randomly fit them in place and they are not be lining up right. So I am waiting on him to either call me or return from his vacation to get those finished. He personally cut those precisely to fit perfectly and they were all in place before and for some reason I can't get them in place.

I tried to get in touch with him with no luck, I am expecting him to return next week hopefully.

After that get's done, I will have my Photographer friend come through and shoot the whole room, entrance, etc. professionally.

Ruben

SANDMAN,

what's the HT benefit to a stagger studded wall over a regular wall?

SBWillie - The answer is sound isolation. You can find a lot of info about it out here with a search, but one of the best discussions starts here --> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6704685&&#post6704685

Ruben, what did you end up doing for the entrance area? You were asking for opinions, but I never saw anything after that.

That HAS to be frustrating with the grills!

Ruben...

Just to add to the peppering of questions:

Did you ever decide on an anamorphic lens and a masking system?


Chip

Congrats Rueben! The theater has opened! Enjoy, and we are all eagerly awaiting the professional photos.

Skipp

I can't wait to see the finished pictures. This has been one of the coolest projects I've ever seen someone document.

I'm sure since your theater turned out so great most of us have forgoten some of the early steps you took to isolate the sound from escaping the room.
I was wonder how your end results were in that department.

Great work Sandman. I was just looking at your very first post and the layout of your theater room. I notice that your side surrounds are between your 2 rows of seating. I cannot remember what you used for your side surrounds but are they dipoles? I was under the impression that diploles should go directly beside the intended "sweet spot".

Great work Sandman. I was just looking at your very first post and the layout of your theater room. I notice that your side surrounds are between your 2 rows of seating. I cannot remember what you used for your side surrounds but are they dipoles? I was under the impression that diploles should go directly beside the intended "sweet spot".

Martin Logan Scripts were used for the 4 surrounds. They are an electrostat speaker and are considered a dipole.

Most dipoles would mount with the 2 sides firing to the front and back of the room. With the ML's, they act more like a mono-pole from a mounting perspective as they fire straight across the width of the room with the rear wave coming off the wall at the back of the column.

For those that been following my DIY screen thread, I am finally ready to start shipping out this new Audio Transparent screen Material. To get a sample or order some material for your AT DIY Movie Screen READ THIS POST (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7431664&&#post7431664)

Ruben

Great news on the fabric.

I went back and re read all you posts for the last month on this and the screen thread. My question is how are you managing the image and format issue.

I guess you are going with the 2:35 screen. Are you using one of those special lens/constant height set ups? or just opening up the image and letting the leftover fall of the edge?

Then when you want to watch 16:9 what are you doing? making it smaller and adjust the aim?

Since I've got the same gun I'd like to figure this out.

Enough with this speaker and screen talk, where are the *&$#*&@# PICTURES!!!!

And don't even think about telling us that you tore it all out to start over.

lol

I total agree with K White.

Where are the *&$#*&@# PICTURES!!!!

Sandman you get us addicted to your home theater and you leaves us high and dry

Like a turn out $10 crackhoe!!!!

LOL

Wow, I just discovered this thread. Very very impressive work...

Sandman - Great thread!

Really appreciate the details you included on the Starfied ceiling construction - one question I have that could not find the answer to was how the starfield panels were secured to the ceiling.

Thanks,
Mark

Sandman - Great thread!

Really appreciate the details you included on the Starfied ceiling construction - one question I have that could not find the answer to was how the starfield panels were secured to the ceiling.

Thanks,
Mark

Ruben was going to use velcro but ended up using brads instead. He told me that he can still see the seams at times. I have been trying to figure out a method to hide the seams better but have not come to any conclusions. If you are doing a similar ceiling and have any ideas please share them.

Joe

Its going to be a couple of months before I get to the Starfield construction.

From Rubens pictures those panels look too heavy for Brads or Velcro. Wonder if a construction similar to a suspended ceiling will work - at least if there is a problem they can be taken down.

Mark,

Here's Ruebens response to the question on hanging the star ceiling panels.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7383670&&#post7383670

Bud

Thanks Bud

It seems like you could minimize your seams by putting the panels up first and then covering the whole thing with GOM. If your star celiing area is 11' or less in width, you could only have one seam down the middle of the whole thing.

I guess the question would be if the fabric would sag over a long span like that (hanging upside down).

Its going to be a couple of months before I get to the Starfield construction.

From Rubens pictures those panels look too heavy for Brads or Velcro. Wonder if a construction similar to a suspended ceiling will work - at least if there is a problem they can be taken down.

The Panels weigh about 5 - 7 pounds each. They were very light plus they were snug fitted in place as well. So brad nails were more than enough to hang them.

It seems like you could minimize your seams by putting the panels up first and then covering the whole thing with GOM. If your star celiing area is 11' or less in width, you could only have one seam down the middle of the whole thing.

I guess the question would be if the fabric would sag over a long span like that (hanging upside down).

That's a huge nightmare. I was going to attempt that but working above your head, spraying glue, stretching fabric so it doesn't sag and trying to feed fibers through the GoM would of been the biggest nightmare. Besides, you only see the seams on bright scenes during a movie. I have a fix for the Seams already though, we are using edgebanding covered with GoM to hide them. Its practically invisable.

Great news on the fabric.

I went back and re read all you posts for the last month on this and the screen thread. My question is how are you managing the image and format issue.

I guess you are going with the 2:35 screen. Are you using one of those special lens/constant height set ups? or just opening up the image and letting the leftover fall of the edge?

Then when you want to watch 16:9 what are you doing? making it smaller and adjust the aim?

Since I've got the same gun I'd like to figure this out.

Hey DC,

Yes 2:35:1 is the Screen, I'm going to be using an anamorphic lens for constant height with 16:9.

That's a huge nightmare. I was going to attempt that but working above your head, spraying glue, stretching fabric so it doesn't sag and trying to feed fibers through the GoM would of been the biggest nightmare. Besides, you only see the seams on bright scenes during a movie. I have a fix for the Seams already though, we are using edgebanding covered with GoM to hide them. Its practically invisable.

What is "edgebanding"?

Joe

Ok like everything else I'm sure you will do a great job of researching the anamorphic lens. After you do your research, let us know which one you went with and how you attached to the H79.

Call me BigLAZYinDC

Ok like everything else I'm sure you will do a great job of researching the anamorphic lens. After you do your research, let us know which one you went with and how you attached to the H79.

And on that note, how you plan on using it in conjuction with the projector box.

Bud

What is "edgebanding"?

Joe

Edgebanding is the thin strip used on the edge of cabinet doors See Picture below.

Ruben,

How did you mount your Center Channel Speaker? Mine is not as large as yours, but it is still a monster at 27.0 x 16 x 11.5in* (W x H x D) and 55 lbs.

Ruben,

How did you mount your Center Channel Speaker? Mine is not as large as yours, but it is still a monster at 27.0 x 16 x 11.5in* (W x H x D) and 55 lbs.

The Martin Logan has a bracket with It
http://loutrixrecords.com/images/theater-pix/speakers/DSC08601.jpg

Edgebanding is the thin strip used on the edge of cabinet doors See Picture below.

So are you glueing the gom to the edgebanding and then glueing that combinationo ver the seams?

Joe

The Martin Logan has a bracket with It
http://loutrixrecords.com/images/theater-pix/speakers/DSC08601.jpg

Is the ml center channel not bi-polar? Don't you need space behind it?

Joe

Is the ml center channel not bi-polar?
Don't you need space behind it?

Joe

There is space behind it, see the picture below. The bracket swivels behind the speaker for wall placement. They made the bracket so the speaker is about 6" - 8" from the back of the electrostatic Panel to the wall.

http://www.audiocafe.co.kr/admin/sub_image/Theater(with%20stand)-21.jpg

Having consumed this thread, as well as your DIY screen thread, in two big sittings, I have to say that I am truly, deeply impressed. Not only by your exceptional HT - which is stunning - but also by your construction/finishing talents, your careful, considered documenting, and your no holes-barred problem solving. Especially appreciated the starfield ceiling info as that has been about the last design element of my own HT (about to begin soon) that I hadn't quite figured out how to implement. Of course, after seeing your process it all seems blindingly obvious. So THANKS, congrats, kudos and BRING ON THE FINAL PHOTOS!!!

After reading this entire thread over the last couple of days (work, what work?!) all I can say is:

http://home.hawaii.rr.com/gysyouri/images/not_worthy.gif http://home.hawaii.rr.com/gysyouri/images/not_worthy.gif http://home.hawaii.rr.com/gysyouri/images/not_worthy.gif http://home.hawaii.rr.com/gysyouri/images/not_worthy.gif http://home.hawaii.rr.com/gysyouri/images/not_worthy.gif

I finally caught up from page 47, haven't checked a month or so and must say this theater is orgasmic (har har) and prolly the coolest DIY Project I've come across.

Anxiously awaiting the final specs and pics too.

~Bob

Ruben,

Where did you get the cotton batting material that you used on the wall behind your prescenuim?

Thanks

Joe

Ruben,

Where did you get the cotton batting material that you used on the wall behind your prescenuim?

Thanks

Joe

BPape sells it.

Ruben

I got a couple emails asking me about how I finished my column covers. I completely forgot to post that a while back so here are the pictures. I was originally was going to use black GoM but I liked the look of speaker grill cloth much better. Speaker grill cloth is much smoother and slicker looking for the column grills IMO.

So we started with the wood frames we originally made from the pieces we cut out from the columns.

http://loutrixrecords.com/images/theater-pix/column-grills-final/4-702062.jpg

Then we liquid nailed the curved perforated steel we had made to the wood frames. Instead of clamping them down to dry, we screwed them down to dry so it wouldn't take 50 clamps to do all 6 Column grills.

http://loutrixrecords.com/images/theater-pix/column-grills-final/DSC08907.jpg


http://loutrixrecords.com/images/theater-pix/column-grills-final/DSC08909.jpg

After it dryed overnight, came out the next day and removed all the screws and sanded off any excess glue that might off seaped out the perfs. I didn't leave the screws in because light will be shining directly down on these columns and all the imperfections will be noticed when the lights are on. We need these perfectly smooth to have speaker grill cloth on top and not show through any bumps. GoM would of been a lot more forgiving but the speaker grill cloth was more along the lines of what I wanted. So after the sanding and wiping, we hit them with some flat black paint so the silver steel doesn't shine through.

http://loutrixrecords.com/images/theater-pix/column-grills-final/DSC08914.jpg

Then we sprayed the wood with some 3M spray glue and wrapped them with the speaker grill cloth. We will reinforce the 3M with staples.

http://loutrixrecords.com/images/theater-pix/column-grills-final/DSC09003.jpg

http://loutrixrecords.com/images/theater-pix/column-grills-final/DSC09009.jpg

All Done!

Ruben

Did you get them to fit in their places? Last I remember, the helper you had who figured out where each one goes was out on vacation or something and you couldn't figure it out.

Great looking column covers.

Where did you buy that curved perforated steel?

Any issues with the sound coming though the curved perforated steel?

Great looking column covers.
Where did you buy that curved perforated steel?
Any issues with the sound coming though the curved perforated steel?Frank, See this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7221955&&#post7221955) by Ruben.

Did you get them to fit in their places? Last I remember, the helper you had who figured out where each one goes was out on vacation or something and you couldn't figure it out.

Yes, the numbers were hidden up high in the columns, but I finally found them myself.

Ruben

Give it up Sandman! Your Photographer isnt comin, we want to see Pictures.. :)

Give him a break. I think it was like two months after I "finished" my last room that I actually got around to getting the last bit of trim and such up. He's enjoying the fruits of his labor right now. He'll get to it when he gets to it. :)

Awe, ebr, you just want him to send you your screen. :D

Looking good Sandman.

Ruben,

How do you like your American Lites? I am at the point of ordering lights to go in the light trays. Would you do anything different with them? Are they working out ok?

edit: I also cannot read the image on their web site. Do you remember the dimensions of them?

Joe

It's been like two months since we have seen new pictures. Either Ruben is so broke that he cannot afford to take a digital picture or he is working on another room or better yet that boat-in theatre in the back yard. Cold turkey hurts...got the shakes for a .JPG fix.

Hey Guys, I'm Still here and still watching my thread. I should be getting some pictures done shortly.

For those who haven't been following my DIY Screen thread, I have been busy researching my AT Screens and finally found 2 incredible Audio Transparent DIY screens to use in my theater. I been sending out material to a bunch of guys in that thread and they are liking what they see.

Anyway, Stay tooned, more to come!

Ruben

Ruben,

How do you like your American Lites? I am at the point of ordering lights to go in the light trays. Would you do anything different with them? Are they working out ok?

edit: I also cannot read the image on their web site. Do you remember the dimensions of them?

Joe

They are awesome! They don't get hot or anything to bother me. They are a seamless part of my theater and they accent the columns and stage beautifully!

Also they are plenty bright enough alone at 35 watts each. Allot of people were questioning that before. I have 11 of those in the room which is 385 watts total power. The fiber optic starfield ceiling on full power also lights up the room a bit too.

As far as dimensions, Damn you got me there. I can tell you this, they are the smallest MR-16 Type 120 volt fixtures you are going to find.

Ruben

They are awesome! They don't get hot or anything to bother me. They are a seamless part of my theater and they accent the columns and stage beautifully!

Also they are plenty bright enough alone at 35 watts each. Allot of people were questioning that before. I have 11 of those in the room which is 385 watts total power. The fiber optic starfield ceiling on full power also lights up the room a bit too.

As far as dimensions, Damn you got me there. I can tell you this, they are the smallest MR-16 Type 120 volt fixtures you are going to find.

Ruben

Thanks. Silly me. I just looked more closely at YOUR pictures of the lights and was able to do a pretty good estimate of the size. I ordered 14 of them :)

Did you use the same lights for over your stage? I am a little concerned about using these in a closed in area. I am guessing they are not UL approved.

Joe

Anyway, Stay tooned, more to come!

Ruben

LOL, your video work must be with animation. This is the second time I've seen you use the word "tooned" instead of "tuned" :D

Joe

Thanks. Silly me. I just looked more closely at YOUR pictures of the lights and was able to do a pretty good estimate of the size. I ordered 14 of them :)

Did you use the same lights for over your stage? I am a little concerned about using these in a closed in area. I am guessing they are not UL approved.

Joe

Yes, I used the same lights above my stage, 5 above the stage and 6 for the columns.
They have version with cans but they are a little bigger and I personally didn't like the look of them. Check out Ronnie Jacksons thread, I gave him a link to them.

Ruben

Ruben,

I know that you kept about a 1/4 inch space all around your stage. My quesiton is, how did you fasten the wall that the screen is in? Did you nail it to the stage and put some sort vibration absorbative connectors to the outer walls and the joists?

Can you tell where I am in my project?? :)

Thanks

Joe

Ruben,

I know that you kept about a 1/4 inch space all around your stage. My quesiton is, how did you fasten the wall that the screen is in? Did you nail it to the stage and put some sort vibration absorbative connectors to the outer walls and the joists?

Can you tell where I am in my project?? :)

Thanks

Joe

I used foam Padding around The Screenwall.

I want to touch on something here. I am not happy with the lack of Bass my room has. I have a velodyne DD18 sub on the Stage and with it cranked all the way up (1,800 watts) the room lacks bass. It's almost like the stage completely killed the Sub. This is a sub that used to shake my whole house when it was in a regular untreated room before.

I think there are 2 type of people here. People that like to feel that bass pressure in and people who think tight bass is the way to go. To be honest, I should of made this decision first and then I might of not filled the stage with sand to kill It too much. I can have the sub cranked all the way up and stand right in front of it on the stage and it feels like its not even on. Yes it is on and it is properly set. I went over the settings a few times with a few different people. I also tried moving the sub around and the best response according to BPape was in The Middle and he feels I shouldn't change It.

I want to get your opinions guys. Should I pull the logan system out and throw something with horns in there or do the Genelec set up? The logans Sound cool and all, but they lack that punch in this room. They need to be in a more reflective room to enjoy them properly. The room is killing the abmience and punch of them and I even tried putting solid board behind them to reflect more with not much improvement.

Ruben

Tear the whole room down and redesign it using an Infinite Baffle Setup... :)

Nelson

Tear the whole room down and redesign it using an Infinite Baffle Setup... :)

Nelson

I thought about that but the neighbors might not like that.

Ruben

SandmanX:

I used foam Padding around The Screenwall.I found some neoprine weatherstripping today.

am not happy with the lack of Bass my room has.
- Have you measured (radio shack, ETF5) -- is it really low, or just something you think is happening
- Is it only in certain spots? (adding absorbtion moves the axial modes)

I have two 500watt subwoofers B&W ASW 675 (http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/label/Model%20ASW%20675) and with radioshack they are set to the same dB as the fronts, but sometimes I put my hand on them to see if there's any bass in the room. They're probably a bit low.

I used foam Padding around The Screenwall.

I want to touch on something here. I am not happy with the lack of Bass my room has. I have a velodyne DD18 sub on the Stage and with it cranked all the way up (1,800 watts) the room lacks bass. It's almost like the stage completely killed the Sub. This is a sub that used to shake my whole house when it was in a regular untreated room before.

I think there are 2 type of people here. People that like to feel that bass pressure in and people who think tight bass is the way to go. To be honest, I should of made this decision first and then I might of not filled the stage with sand to kill It too much. I can have the sub cranked all the way up and stand right in front of it on the stage and it feels like its not even on. Yes it is on and it is properly set. I went over the settings a few times with a few different people. I also tried moving the sub around and the best response according to BPape was in The Middle and he feels I shouldn't change It.

I want to get your opinions guys. Should I pull the logan system out and throw something with horns in there or do the Genelec set up? The logans Sound cool and all, but they lack that punch in this room. They need to be in a more reflective room to enjoy them properly. The room is killing the abmience and punch of them and I even tried putting solid board behind them to reflect more with not much improvement.

Ruben

My $.02:

I'm sort of puzzled as to why people do entire-room acoustical treatments for their theaters. Granted, I haven't heard that many, and I'm not an expert or an audio engineer, but some I have heard (with some very expensive gear) lack just those dynamics and punch you're talking about. Everything just seems a little anemic and a little "lifeless" -- the sound doesn't (IMO) re-create the "you're there" true-to-life, visceral, exciting experience.

I'm in the process of re-doing my theater, both structure and equipment (currently have Krell pre/pro and monoblocks; upgrading to their new Evolution line). I'll probably be going with mbl Radialstrahler or Revel Salon spkrs (maybe the new Mirage OMD line if it's really fantastic), and I'm only going to to moderate acoustical treatment to let the spkrs (including my DD-15) "do their stuff." Definitely no front-wall treatment, and probably just 1st-reflection for side walls and maybe a little back-wall diffusion (room is fully carpeted).

I know many disagree with this, and probably most of them are far more knowledgeable/experienced than myself, but that's the type of sound I personally prefer.

I want to get your opinions guys. Should I pull the logan system out and throw something with horns in there or do the Genelec set up? The logans Sound cool and all, but they lack that punch in this room. They need to be in a more reflective room to enjoy them properly. The room is killing the abmience and punch of them and I even tried putting solid board behind them to reflect more with not much improvement.

Ruben

I am about to ramble a little, so my apologies. Also, this is all just my opinion. I am sure there are many folks that will have differing opinions.

As I have stated before, I used to own electrostats. I had Janzen electrostats for many years and then I had Martin Logans. Electrostats, by their very nature are extremely directional. Hence the curves you see in the current designs. The Janzens I had used fins in front and back to direct the sound.

Electrostats are also bidirectional. By that they radiate both front and back. Not the same as dipole speakers. You really need to have electrostats about 1 1/2 to 2 feet away from a reflecting wall to appreciate them. For many years I loved electrostats for my critical listening.

In my opinion however, this is not what you want for a home theater. Maybe when everything was stereo but now that you have 7 speakers able to do the work of what was two previously you really don't want those reflections. I would let the electronics handle the multiple sound fields through separate and distinct speakers that don't have a dual radiation.

I currently have maggies, so for my critical listening I still have speakers that are bi-directional. :)

Regarding the use of studio monitors, I own part of a recording studio and I would not think that I would want studio monitors in my home theater either. Studio monitors are meant to be extremely directional and have a very tight sound field. More importantly they are designed to reproduce sound in a very critical nature. I don't believe I would want that level of precise sound in my theater. I want something a little more generic. To me, the sound should be THERE but not come to the forefront of my attention. To me, when watching a movie, my brain should be halfway between the audio and the video. It should not be paying specific attention to either. I believe in that space is where you really enjoy the content.

Ruben, I wish I was a couple of weeks closer. I ordered a complete matching set of speakers for a 7.1 system but don't have them yet. I also don't have the room far enough along to even try them out when they arrive. I will be happy to PM you the web site of the speakers if you wish. But they are very nice generic speakers with great measurements.

Joe

...

I think there are 2 type of people here. People that like to feel that bass pressure in and people who think tight bass is the way to go. To be honest, I should of made this decision first and then I might of not filled the stage with sand to kill It too much. I can have the sub cranked all the way up and stand right in front of it on the stage and it feels like its not even on. Yes it is on and it is properly set. I went over the settings a few times with a few different people. I also tried moving the sub around and the best response according to BPape was in The Middle and he feels I shouldn't change It.

...

This is interesting because I had the exact opposite experience. When I went from an insulation-filled stage to a sand filled stage as a platform for my sub, the bass response in the room was MUCH better. Of course, this was in entirely different rooms and at different times (same sub, though) so not very scientific - but the bass was much better in the second room.

Due to this - I would tend to think maybe the culprit is something other than the sand-filled stage.

I want to touch on something here. I am not happy with the lack of Bass my room has. I have a velodyne DD18 sub on the Stage and with it cranked all the way up (1,800 watts) the room lacks bass. It's almost like the stage completely killed the Sub. This is a sub that used to shake my whole house when it was in a regular untreated room before.

I think there are 2 type of people here. People that like to feel that bass pressure in and people who think tight bass is the way to go. To be honest, I should of made this decision first and then I might of not filled the stage with sand to kill It too much. I can have the sub cranked all the way up and stand right in front of it on the stage and it feels like its not even on. Yes it is on and it is properly set. I went over the settings a few times with a few different people. I also tried moving the sub around and the best response according to BPape was in The Middle and he feels I shouldn't change It.


Ruben

I am a little confused by your comments. Obviously the sub is still putting out the same amount of "pressure" as it was before. Actually probably more because you have it cranked now. So what must be missing is the fact that you cannot "feel" the vibrations because of the sand. I don't think you made a mistake putting the sand in the stage though. Can you imaging the major booming you would get by putting your sub on a huge empty wooden box? I don't think you would like that either. So what to do?

Try placing the sub in different locations around the room for testing. Take it off the stage even. See if you can find a place where you like the sound and feel of it. Once you find it, then work form there with both placement and acoustics to keep you satisfied. You might find that you can't get the feel you used to have because you are now on concrete and you used to be on joists.

I know some folks don't like them but I also have buttkickers. I keep them very low but just enough to "feel" the bass a little. IMO, buttkickers are very easily turned up too high and then it becomes fake feeling and distracting and my mind turns to them rather than enjoying the movie.

For your sake and mine I hope the sand is not the issue. I hated hauling it in and I would hate hauling it out even more :)

Joe

The whole front wall is treated with 4" cotton top to bottom.
The Corners on the Stage are stacked with cotton from the stage to the soffit (for Bass).

The walls all around the room are treated with 2" cotton in specific spots 2 feet from the floor and 2 feet from the soffit they are the pink strips in the drawing below.

The ceiling is treated with 1" 703 where indicated with the pink strips in the drawing

http://loutrixrecords.com/images/theater-pix/Ruben-HT.jpg

Ruben, sorry to hear about your displeasure. I like bass. I like to hear it, I like to feel it.

When I was coming up with the layout for my room, since it was not a standard shape, I decided to go with two subs. I put one up front close to the corner and one in the back middle. They are simple Titanic 1000 (10" Dayton drivers in a Vance Dickason designed box with a 250 watt amp each). I also put in the inexpensive Aura shakers (one on each chair). I have found that the level of bass in my room is awesome. Would I like more? Sure. Do I feel I need more, not really. I already have instances where the door to the room shakes and I know that the gutters outside the room vibrate as well, I went outside one time to see how much you could hear.

I do think that the shakers helps with the impact of the subs, but I don't feel I have turned my subs down since I have the shakers like some people may do.

FYI, I treated the full front wall between my columns and half-way up all the way around, I also have carpet on the floor and platform. I did not insulate the platform or use any sand (I don't have a stage). We watched Transporter 2 last night (basically a lame plot, but had a few good chase scenes) and was very happy with the amount of bass that I had.


All that said, I would try adding a second sub somewhere else in the room and see if that helps. Borrow one from a buddy for a weekend or something, to see if you can get a little more of what you were expecting back into your life. I understand what Joe is talking about with the electrostats, and believe him, but I think that is a whole different topic, since you are asking about the bass, not the mids or highs.

SandmanX:

I found some neoprine weatherstripping today.


- Have you measured (radio shack, ETF5) -- is it really low, or just something you think is happening
- Is it only in certain spots? (adding absorbtion moves the axial modes)

I have two 500watt subwoofers B&W ASW 675 (http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/label/Model%20ASW%20675) and with radioshack they are set to the same dB as the fronts, but sometimes I put my hand on them to see if there's any bass in the room. They're probably a bit low.

Yes I took readings with ETF, a calibrated Mic and RoomEq as well. BPape said the Bass response looked really good from 20 hz up to 400hz

Thanks
Ruben

We watched Transporter 2 last night (basically a lame plot, but had a few good chase scenes) and was very happy with the amount of bass that I had.

Ha ha, a real good friend of mine was in that movie in the first ass kicking scene. He was the driver with the steeling the car that got his as kicked. That movie was horrible compared to the first one IMO. My friend was also in Bad Boys 2 he was in the Gang that stole the car transporter and he was unloading the cars off it during the chase scene.

Ruben

This is interesting because I had the exact opposite experience. When I went from an insulation-filled stage to a sand filled stage as a platform for my sub, the bass response in the room was MUCH better. Of course, this was in entirely different rooms and at different times (same sub, though) so not very scientific - but the bass was much better in the second room.

Due to this - I would tend to think maybe the culprit is something other than the sand-filled stage.

If I take that Sub and throw it on the concrete floor then it performs like I expect it should. Same for when I throw it on the insulated chair platform. Like when you are watching King Kong and King Kong growls I feel it should be more intense like other people described.

I want Sound that rips your heart out your chest, what do you guys recommend?

Ruben

SandmanX:

With your sub on the stage, can you play test tones from 15hz through 80hz, and feel the stage? Does it vibrate?
Is there a thick carpet under the sub?
Does your sub have plastic feet, or spikes?
Basically I'm wondering if your sub is moving (bad), or if it's moving air (good).

What happens if you put a 3/4" (or 1.5" thick) 4x8 sheet of plywood vertically against the front wall near the subwoofer? (i.e. 2 pi loading => twice the volume in bass)

Were you getting a modal boost from some other spot?

I thought a sand filled stage was a good thing for a subwoofer to push off of. You could put some concrete patio stones under the sub for a test.

i would do 1 of two things eather move the sub to the center of the back wall or buld a ib in to the wall metween the house and the theater

I want to get your opinions guys. Should I pull the logan system out and throw something with horns in there or do the Genelec set up? The logans Sound cool and all, but they lack that punch in this room. They need to be in a more reflective room to enjoy them properly. The room is killing the abmience and punch of them and I even tried putting solid board behind them to reflect more with not much improvement.

I understand what Joe is talking about with the electrostats, and believe him, but I think that is a whole different topic, since you are asking about the bass, not the mids or highs.

Hmmm, maybe I misundersood Ruben's last paragraph? I thought Ruben was also questioning the MLs.

Joe

When I looked at the response measurements, the bottom end was pretty consistent. The decay control is definitely not overdone looking at the waterfalls. If anything, the subwoofer frequencies are a bit on the hot side. I don't think it's in the sub range that the lack of punch is happening. I think it's in the bottom end of the MLs.

When we originally did the design, the area behind the main MLs was to have been left untreated so we'd get the back wave appropriately. Didn't end up getting done that way though - the whole wall is treated. Also, the MLs have a rear firing woofer. Due to the restrictions on where the false wall is, the MLs are basically right against the front wall without sufficient room to 'breathe'.

I personally think what is going on is a choking of the ML's backwave - both panel and rear woofer - coupled with a total change in the type of room and lack of 'boom' that had been there before.

We did discuss using other speakers besides the MLs but Ruben had already purchased them and wanted to use them. The reasons we discussed were exactly these things that are now potentially causing issues.

If it were me Ruben, since you have access to the Genelecs, I'd try them and see what it does. That would at least allow us to verify or eliminate some potential issues.

Holy crap. :eek: You have 4" of cotton on the entire front wall + bass traps?
I would imagine that right now your room makes the bass punch and die like Lars Ulrich's kickdrums - great for a song but bad for an explosion.

IMO - Sounds to me like you are trapping way too much bass on the front wall giving you the tight bass not the bass pressure. You say when you move the sub out away from the 4" cotton wall and corner bass traps...you get more bass you can feel. I am no acoustical engineer, but seems like this is the problem. Maybe try replacing the 4" of cotton on the entire front wall to just a 1" Linacoustic or equivalent. I would think with all 4 corner traps you are covered with reflections.

Acoustical treatment surgery anyone? Oh yeah, I could be (and probably am) wrong but I am trying to help. :D

Good luck Ruben.

Jikkjack


I used foam Padding around The Screenwall.

I want to touch on something here. I am not happy with the lack of Bass my room has. I have a velodyne DD18 sub on the Stage and with it cranked all the way up (1,800 watts) the room lacks bass. It's almost like the stage completely killed the Sub. This is a sub that used to shake my whole house when it was in a regular untreated room before.

I think there are 2 type of people here. People that like to feel that bass pressure in and people who think tight bass is the way to go. To be honest, I should of made this decision first and then I might of not filled the stage with sand to kill It too much. I can have the sub cranked all the way up and stand right in front of it on the stage and it feels like its not even on. Yes it is on and it is properly set. I went over the settings a few times with a few different people. I also tried moving the sub around and the best response according to BPape was in The Middle and he feels I shouldn't change It.

I want to get your opinions guys. Should I pull the logan system out and throw something with horns in there or do the Genelec set up? The logans Sound cool and all, but they lack that punch in this room. They need to be in a more reflective room to enjoy them properly. The room is killing the abmience and punch of them and I even tried putting solid board behind them to reflect more with not much improvement.

Ruben

...I want Sound that rips your heart out your chest, what do you guys recommend?

Ruben

Gosh, I dunno, but I sure hope the cotton isn't the issue. I will have 7" of it.

You also have your soffits filled with it, right?

I'm not familiar with your sub so maybe it is even better than this, but how 'bout: http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-ultra2.cfm as a solution? :)

http://www.svsound.com/products/subs/pb12ultra2/angle_lg.jpg

To me, the two main things your sound lacks, making it overall seem boring, is:

1) The MLs are too close to the wall. They are dipolar and sound much better - punchier - when spaced at least 2' from the walls. They're therefore difficult to integrate well into a HT, but still offer their low-level "magic." The second aspect to these types of speakers is that they're inherently compressive on dynamic peaks. I have a lot of experience with planars, and while I'm incurably addicted to their mid-level transparency, they don't hold a candle to the dynamic snap and impact of horns (e.g. Tannoy, Avantgarde) A snare drum pop in a pure recording should startle you. Cause you to blink. Under the most ideal setup, MLs will not likely do this.

2) You're seating is on a concrete pad. Many HTs are constructed on floating floors, as the vibrations across the floor improve the perceived dynamics of the sound. We're used to feeling 20Hz as much as hearing it, and when you strip out any tactile sensation, you strip out part of the natural way we perceive sub-sonics. Adding tactile transducers could possibly help, but that seems very difficult to integrate well. Adding more subs could help by just brute forcing acoustical coupling into your seats via air (assuming your sub/stage/concrete floor isolation are nearly total).

Or going to a different type of subwoofer, one that is inherently more efficient at lower frequencies, and can pressurize a space with lower distortion and power requirements than any other sub type - infinite baffle. The back wave doesn't have to be exposed to the outside; an attic will do. Any space that has at least 10xVas of the drivers you use. I have a basement HT, and while the concrete floor is difficult to shake, an infinite baffle sub is the only type where in-room SPL can increase as the frequencies decrease (until Fs, which is typically 14-16Hz, is reached). It is common to be able to reach 120dB at 12Hz, with less distortion, less power needs, less expensively and without boxes in the room, with an IB setup. The name of this game is displacement (area x excursion) and low Fs. Watching "Black Hawk Down", with near-live SPLs at 10Hz, is a scary experience, one which concrete will not stop. Many worry about structural damage, although that's never been reported to happen. More likely is neighbor relations damage, although I've never heard of that, either. Here's a great forum if this peaks your interest. http://ibsubwoofers.proboards51.com/index.cgi I'll never use anything else - the higher performance at lower cost is an addictive combination.

Cheers,
Chris

Again, there are a couple of issues here.

The bass absorbers are larger than what was designed. The soffits are not fully utilized for bass absorbtion. There is a lot of HVAC ducting up there. So, basically, the only bass control in the room is a few feet of the soffiting and the front corners if you discount the front wall. This is less than doing all 4 corners.

We did look at the possibility of it being too much by covering it with hard plywood behind the speakers and subs and it didn't fix the issue. Also, based on the frequency response graphs, the dips that remain are above the subwoofer range - again, pointing to the too close proximity of the main speakers to the front wall.

If pulling the sub out into the room fixes the issue then do it. I simply looked at a couple of sets of plots and found the one that had the best response. Again, it's actually a bit hot for the sub. What I think is not being heard is the boom that was in the old untreated room.

What I normally do when I do a room is to get the basic shell done. Then, before putting up any treatments, move the sub around and take measurements to find the best response. Then we do the treatments. The issue here is that the area available for the sub is SO small that there really aren't a lot of choices .

I've discussed this with you Ruben about pulling down some of the mateiral on the front wall. I've asked to take measurements and listen with the sub with reversed phase. What bothers me is that the measured response and decay does not match with the perception of a lack of bass. The FR curve shows basically +/- 4db from about 40Hz to well over 120Hz with a peak of about an additional 3db around 20-25Hz. Doesn't look like a lack of subwoofer output to me.

We will get to the bottom of this one way or another. I've done many rooms with a soft front wall of the same material and never had this issue before.

ebr,

Your situation is very different.

- You really don't have much else in the way of bass control due to the room shape and layout.
- Your sub and mains will be MUCH farther away from the absorbtion and the front wall due to your recess in that area.
- You have much more flexibility in sub placement.

I just recently finished my room. When I listened to my room for the first time, sound was absolutly crappy. My room is all treated also. The problem was a huge dip in 60~150 hz. Eventuall I ended up pulling all the 703's behind the speakers. I have NHT towers with ported base enclosure.

Well, not sure that was the real issue but can't say for sure. Again, if that was the issue, then the plywood experiment should have given some indication of that - it didn't. If there was a big dip in his response curve, I'd start looking at it - but there isn't. If anything, the levels from 80Hz down are hotter than the rest.

We're still working on it. When the sub comes out into the room the bass gets much better. If it was overabsorbtion, that shouldn't make that much of a drastic difference. I still think some of it is cancellations between the rolloff of the sub coupled with the rear woofer of the Logans sitting so close to the wall and killing their own waves.

I think your assement of"I personally think what is going on is a choking of the ML's backwave" has to be looked in closely also.

Can you put another sub in the back corner of the theater? If I recall, I thought you had pre-wired the stage for transducers, why not use this wiring for an additional sub to give you that extra punch?

Here are some Specs on the Sub I am Using...
(Not my Picture below)

http://loutrixrecords.com/images/theater-pix/sub.jpg

Velodyne DD18 powered subwoofer in sealed cabinet of 1"-thick MDF
Driver: 18" Kevlar-reinforced cone with tandem voice coil, 24-lb magnet
Frequency response: 14–120Hz, +/-3dB
Inputs: LFE (XLR, RCA), L/R (RCA). Speaker-level (5-way binding posts)
Outputs: L/R (RCA)
Amplifier: 1250W RMS, 3000W peak
Highpass filter: 80Hz (fixed), 6dB/octave
Lowpass filter: adjustable in 1Hz increments, 15–199Hz; slope adjustable: 6, 12, 18, 24, 30, 36, 42, or 48dB/octave
Phase: adjustable in 15° increments, 0–180°; polarity adjustable (+/-)
Other: high-gain servo for reducing distortion; signal generator/video sweep output; test microphone & mike cable included; Digital Drive for electronic management of in-room response
Finishes: gloss black; maple or cherry veneer
Dimensions: 23" {x} 21.25" {x} 19.25" (H{x}W{x}D)
Weight: 120 lbs
Price: $4999

Looks like a monster. Hard to believe you're not getting enough output out of that thing...

Unless there are heavy bass traps that can be pulled for an experiment, your room treatment cannot be responsible for any loss of base below 75Hz. You may be experiencing lack of upper base/low midrange. I don't know for sure but it is hard to believe that your situation is caused by lack of mid~low bass. Placing any speaker close to wall could create a similar problem unless the speaker is designed for that application. If possible pull those speakers at least 16" from front wall and give it 24" from side for a run.

If the problem is really the ML woofer's proximity to the front wall, you might try this experiment: Turn the MLs around, so the woofer faces the screen (you can't see the speakers anyway, since they are behind the screen).

Many have already made the point that the ML radiate bi-directionally, and while the curvature may give rise to some cancellations, you should be able to "aim" them to at least get one "sweet spot" for a listening test.

If this helps the "punchiness", then you know what to work on.

Sandman - on a different topic - I think I remember that you used a sprayer to apply your stain. Was it an air compressor driven one or a paint sprayer? If it was a compressor driven one, how big is your compressor? I was looking into getting an attachment for mine but all the sprayers say they need a fairly large compressor tank to work, and mine is only a 6 gal. pancake...

If the problem is really the ML woofer's proximity to the front wall, you might try this experiment: Turn the MLs around, so the woofer faces the screen (you can't see the speakers anyway, since they are behind the screen).

Many have already made the point that the ML radiate bi-directionally, and while the curvature may give rise to some cancellations, you should be able to "aim" them to at least get one "sweet spot" for a listening test.

If this helps the "punchiness", then you know what to work on.

I was going to recommend trying this same thing, but I am really confused because Ruben says that moving the subwoofer out to the main area or the seating platform brings the bass back that he wants. So it has to be something with the subwoofer, doesn't it?

Either way, it would be a good experiment to flip the MLs around.

Joe

I was going to recommend trying this same thing, but I am really confused because Ruben says that moving the subwoofer out to the main area or the seating platform brings the bass back that he wants. So it has to be something with the subwoofer, doesn't it?

Either way, it would be a good experiment to flip the MLs around.

Joe

Could it be an interaction between the two? Could it be that, with the sub back behind the screen, and the ML woofers firing back there too that we've got some sort of cancellation happening here?

CaspianM:
your room treatment cannot be responsible for any loss of base below 75Hz.
Although at grazing incidence high frequency sound tends to reflect from absorbers, SandmanX's front wall's LF (30hz to 300hz) grazing absorbtion is probably fantastic. I'll see if I can come up with some graphs later. It's why in post #1831 I queried about what happens if he puts a lot of plywood in front of it.

Somewhere I had the feeling that there was 4" of insulation with a 4" airgap behind it over the entire front wall. But I looked at SandmanX's drawing and I have no idea (and someone said the subwoofer was behind the front wall, rather than sitting on the stage). If there's a 16" airgap behind it, then grazing absorbtion is going to be alarmingly broadband.

How low do the L/R speakers go (re Bpape's concern about the speaker-sub interaction out-of-phase cancelling)? Are they bass-managed ?

If the problem is really the ML woofer's proximity to the front wall, you might try this experiment: Turn the MLs around, so the woofer faces the screen (you can't see the speakers anyway, since they are behind the screen).

Many have already made the point that the ML radiate bi-directionally, and while the curvature may give rise to some cancellations, you should be able to "aim" them to at least get one "sweet spot" for a listening test.

If this helps the "punchiness", then you know what to work on.

The Martin Logans Odyssey's have a Woofer in the front and the back. 10" in the front and 8" in the Back. The back panel part of the Logan is about 30" from the back wall.

Ruben

I think I just have too much bass absorbtion in the room. That sub use to almost crack the windows in my house at 1/4 volume. I had to put shimmies in my windows because they use to rattle from the earthquake bass that sub delivers. I bought that sub for a reason, it was because when I heard it perform in my friends house I almost sh*t my pants.

The front wall is all 4" - 5" cotton. The cotton is glued directly to the drywall. The soffits are loaded with cotton too. To get an idea of how much cotton is in the room, the boxes in against the window in the picture below are all cotton. Then I got 2 more deliveries of cotton after that with about 6 - 8 more boxes worth.

http://loutrixrecords.com/images/theater-pix/DSC05698.jpg



This was the first reading I did on my room once I set up the speakers in the theater.
The Sub was a little hot in this reading because I wasn't feeling it.

http://loutrixrecords.com/images/theater-pix/rubenfreqresp_lrst.jpg

http://loutrixrecords.com/images/theater-pix/rubenwaterfall_lrst.jpg

I want to touch on something here. I am not happy with the lack of Bass my room has. I have a velodyne DD18 sub on the Stage and with it cranked all the way up (1,800 watts) the room lacks bass. It's almost like the stage completely killed the Sub. This is a sub that used to shake my whole house when it was in a regular untreated room before.

Ruben,

I’m with you… I like feeling sound through my bones. Maybe it's because of the first live concert I attended or the first time I watched Top Gun on LD.

I apologize if this has already been answered but I didn’t have time to go back through this amazing thread. Did you build a floating floor or is your theater on a concrete slab? It does sound as if the stage is a contributing factor. Much like putting a sub on a concrete slab… it will dramatically reduce the amount of bass “felt”

If I can provide a speaker solution that meets your requirements, will you send me the Logan’s free of charge? :D This poor man can dream.

Have you ever auditioned the old Pork SRT’s? I realize that many will say the word Polk shouldn’t even be mentioned in a thread of this caliber. However, they definitely deliver the sonic impact you’re describing. They can produce the kind of SPL that jars your innards (and kills your hearing). I would compare the SRT’s sound to something along the lines of a high-end car audio setup. I’m not talking about the imaging aspect, just the sonics. Polk doesn’t make these anymore but I’m sure you could track down a used pair with some effort. The best word I’ve heard to describe them… excess. I think Matt's quote does a good job as well "I wanted a system capable of such effortless power and clarity that, as you turn up the volume, it literally scares you,"

I’ve auditioned countless subs and it’s definitely an important part of the solution. A good friend has the Velodyne 18 you are running and it definitely moves enough air. However, a sub is only half the equation. Electrostatics sound beautiful but they’re not very good at moving large volumes of air.

SandmanX:

I'm confused.

I've got no clue what your front wall looks like.
I've been through this entire thread looking for pictures, including staring at the layout drawing on the prior page of this thread.

I have no idea where your Velodyne DD18 subwoofer is.
I've little idea where the other woofers are.

I think you've got a 2.5' airgap behind your screen. I'm guessing you've got drywall around the screen, with 5" of cotton on the room side, except where the screen is. How you did that with 2x4's I've no idea. The rest of the area behind the screen is basically a big open room with a single 'window' (not sure if I should model it as a helmoltz or as a coupled room). You've got two corner traps back there, and a couple of thin absorbers, and a big black cloth.

You've made no comment about whether the martin logan's bass is effectively off from 80hz down due to bass management. If they're on, in that 'room' behind the screen, I'd have no idea how to get 4 of those woofers in phase with a subwoofer.

SandmanX:

I'm confused.

I've got no clue what your front wall looks like.
I've been through this entire thread looking for pictures, including staring at the layout drawing on the prior page of this thread.

I have no idea where your Velodyne DD18 subwoofer is.
I've little idea where the other woofers are.

I think you've got a 2.5' airgap behind your screen. I'm guessing you've got drywall around the screen, with 5" of cotton on the room side, except where the screen is. How you did that with 2x4's I've no idea. The rest of the area behind the screen is basically a big open room with a single 'window' (not sure if I should model it as a helmoltz or as a coupled room). You've got two corner traps back there, and a couple of thin absorbers, and a big black cloth.

You've made no comment about whether the martin logan's bass is effectively off from 80hz down due to bass management. If they're on, in that 'room' behind the screen, I'd have no idea how to get 4 of those woofers in phase with a subwoofer.

The wall that the Center channel is mounted on in the picture below is the wall with the 4" - 5" Cotton. It is covered with Black Muslin. There is a part of that wall that isn't covered with cotton which is behind the Center Channel so the reflections are not dead on it.

The Screen Wall is around 30" from the cotton covered front wall. The screen wall is all framed out and covered with GoM. It is not a solid wall.

Anyway the sub sits right below the Center Channel (Not seen in the picture below) In between the Cotton wall and the screen wall.

http://loutrixrecords.com/images/theater-pix/speakers/DSC08612.jpg

SandmanX:

I'd seen that picture. It lead me to several wrong conclusions -- and of course didn't show the subwoofer.

Is this your layout? Is there anything wrong with this? Anything you think you should add?
http://www.bobgolds.com/SandmanX/SandmanX_room.gif

Which of those postitions: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 (or some other position where chairs are not) does your subwoofer sound good at ?

SandmanX:

I'd seen that picture. It lead me to several wrong conclusions -- and of course didn't show the subwoofer.

Is this your layout? Is there anything wrong with this? Anything you think you should add?
http://www.bobgolds.com/SandmanX/SandmanX_room.gif

Which of those postitions: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 (or some other position where chairs are not) does your subwoofer sound good at ?

Wow That is cool of You to put that drawing together, thanks for taking the time to do that.

Everything looks about right in the drawing, except the following...

1) My center channel is mounted on the wall with the pink. The hard space behind it is 14" x 44" or so.
2) The back wall between the 2 columns has a 4' x 4' x 2" cotton treatment as well. 3) The the whole front soffit above the stage is tightly packed with cotton as well. That soffit is 12" tall x 30" wide x 15 feet long 100% filled with cotton.
4) The Soffits all around the room are also filled with cotton
5) The front 2 columns are filled from top to bottom with cotton and the 4 back columns are filled with cotton in the top above the speakers and the bottom below the speakers.

I tried the sub in spot # 1 and it sounded much better. I threw it on spot # 4 and it sounded good too. Prob is my chairs will be in spots 4 & 5, spot 2 is the Door to my theater, spot 1 is in the middle of the room. Spot 3 and the opposite corner would be idea for a sub placement as well.

The corner bass traps on the stage are 24" x 24" x 34" as well and are 7' Tall.

http://loutrixrecords.com/images/theater-pix/bass-trap.gif

Thanks
Ruben

A friend of mine has a pair of these sitting in his garage. I was thinking about picking them up to try them out in the room.

http://loutrixrecords.com/images/theater-pix/4430-35.gif

and if they didn't work, I could always go this route...

http://loutrixrecords.com/images/theater-pix/jblspeakers.jpg

I thought the Polk's might be a little more practical but you could also go this route...

SUB HORN BUILDING

The Biggest SUBWOOFER of the WORLD, for the most esoteric Audio and AUDIO-VIDEO Room of the World. The Highest efficiency ever obtained with NO hearable distortion using NO feedback tube low power amplifiers and NO crossover on the speakers. To understand how this is possible, you can read all thruout the WHITE PAPERS, here you will find answers to all your questions.

http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.htm

http://www.royaldevice.com/SubExp1.jpg

Or maybe an array of these...

http://img.infotropic.com/i/051122_2.jpg

SandmanX:

3) The the whole front soffit above the stage is tightly packed with cotton as well. That soffit is 12" tall x 30" wide x 15 feet long 100% filled with cotton. Is that soffet above where the subwoofer is in the drawing, or above the curved part of the stage. i.e. which side of the GoM ?

spot 2 is the Door to my theater,How about same place, but on the opposite side of the theatre (bottom of drawing).

What are your bass management settings on your receiver? Are you sending full frequency to your martin logans ?

Have you tried a LF frequency sweep only to your subwoofer (LFE channel)?

Where are you when you are saying it's better? Are you merely closer to the sub? Have you sat on the stage and listened?

Is your criteria for 'better' only that you feel the vibrations?

SandmanX,

Why not build a pair of Subs that have dual SoundSplinter RL-p15 and a Behringer EP2500 to drive each enclosure.

As for the actually speakers take a good look at the Triad InRoom Platinum LCRs.

~Bob

Bob.

The front wall has 4" of cotton directly to the wall. No air gap.

The sub and the main MLs are basically right against the front wall.

The original design called for 17x17x24 bass absorbers and the front wall covered except for behind the main speakers to allow the backwave of the panels to reflect as designed.

What has be bugged is getting the bottom end much better when moving the sub. That introduces so many variables itself that it's difficult to determine WHY that works. Is it the change of phase interaction between the sub and listener? Is it the change in phase interaction between the sub and the mains? The DD18 has 15 degree phase increment adjustments.

If the front wall was in fact too dead too low and that was the issue, then why would moving the sub make that much difference? You're still deadening it the same amount in terms of the room itself.

I actualy have another customer who has a 5.1 ML Prodigy system with a Velo DD18. I'm going to ask him to do an experiment in his place by putting the MLs and the sub right up against the front wall and see what his experience is. It will be somewhat different as his room is basically a concrete shell with foam and drywall glued over it (no stud walls) but at least I might be able to see what's up with just the proximity issue.

Bpape:

If the front wall was in fact too dead too low and that was the issue, then why would moving the sub make that much difference? You're still deadening it the same amount in terms of the room itself.That's not quite right, it's not 'the same'. The difference is when it gets absorbed.
I had been thinking the room was laid out like this instead
http://www.bobgolds.com/SandmanX/SandmanX_room_wrong.gif
and that would have had a HUGE effect on bass.
But the way it actually is in SandmanX's room, I just don't see LF absorbtion being a dramatic difference. Could be I'm missing something.

Which leads me back to:
a) the stage floor is moving, robbing the subwoofer of power
b) the subwoofer/main interaction is wrong.
as my first two guesses to prove wrong.

Which leads me back to:
a) the stage floor is moving, robbing the subwoofer of power
b) the subwoofer/main interaction is wrong.
as my first two guesses to prove wrong.

I cannot imagine the stage is moving. I am currently building the stage and have the cavities 3/4 filled with sand. 3 of us tried to budge it and could not. I don't remember the exact lumber that Ruben used but I have 2x8s throughout the main stage area. Heck, we even tried 3 guys on a single corner and could not get it to budge.

Regarding the subwoofer/main intereaction, a good test would be to just turn the mains off and see if the low end improves.

Joe

Make darn sure theres not a hidden feature for LFE hidden in the menues or any bass management. Not sure what reciever he has but I would dig deep into that, I have literally dozens of Sub options on a Denon 5805 before even getting to my sub amp that has another several option such as phase and crossovers and gain. I have discovered areas deep in menues that are sub killers on the 5805 like all the THX subwoofer settings and hidden gains in onboard parabolic EQing and even after all this and everything running, all flags operational I can push the select button and have had the subs gain set to -10. Why? who knows , I always have all the gains set to 0 but every once and awhile I will check and these settings have changed. I know its a pain in the arse but the way i would check is to move the sub outside the room and see if it knocks your socks off again, if so the room is to dead. Period.

That seems like alot of absorbtion for that size of room (4"-7" behind the screen??? plus pretty substaintial bass traps, stuffed open soffits, stuffed columns, thick padded carpet, staggered stud walls probably stuffed. I forgot, whats inside the risers?

I can understand this if Ruben played the cello or violin but this room was for movies with explosions and theres a fine line between acoutically treating a room and making it dead.

If the front wall was in fact too dead too low and that was the issue, then why would moving the sub make that much difference? You're still deadening it the same amount in terms of the room itself.
Even when he moves the sub next to him I think he's still dissapointed if I am reading correctly, but it makes complete sense that it would get better next to him than placed next to a million cubic ft of cotton 15' away. From what I am understanding he feels no pressures on his body. Maybe somehow the round columns that no one could model correctly are creating a huge null, He said when he sticks his head in the back ( non trapped) corners he hears the best bass in the room which would make sense, not that thats the type of bass he would probably want but instead traps if possible.

He needs to keep all his settings the same and extend the sub wire out into the next room If the bass is back to what it was originally than its simple what the problem is.

Yes. There's a lot of bass absorbtion in the room. And, it's all in the front as that was the only available place for it. We have discussed several different options. However, again, if you look at the FR and waterfalls for the room, they do not show it being overly dead.

My guess is sub/mains integration and phase issues. When the sub is pulled into the room, you're not only changing the proximity to the absorbtion, but also the phase relationship to the listener, and the phase relationship between the subs and the mains.

Bob, I'd agree to a point. If this were a rear ported sub then absolutely it could be an issue - not just the absorbtion but the lack of 'breathing room' for the port to the wall right behind it. But, it's not. It's a sealed front firing sub. There should be plenty of front and side wave with just the wraparound backwave being damped.
Mark,

The columns being stuffed really only have about 5-6 Sq Ft of absorbtion directly available to the room. The rest is just damping inside the solid parts to keep them from resonating. The soffits have a large section of them that are only half full with the balance being HVAC work. This is probably the back half of the room soffits and the entire rear soffit. Also, the side faces of the soffit are not open.

The rest of the room is not wholly covered with absorbtion like Linacoustic around the entire perimeter, etc. There are strategically placed 2" thick absorbers at refleciton points and on the rear wall between the columns. Other than that, it's relatively live.

I have this image of a an Episode of CSI miami.

Horatio and team are called to this house in Boca to investigate the death in a Home Theater. Laying on the floor is a man with this **** eating grin on his face.

Around the room are a dozen Massive Sub-Woofers.

After investigation it was determined that the man happened to be standing at a peak node when he turned the system on and ran a sweep of deep bass LFE sounds. The intense bass vibrations caused an aneurysm in his brain.

Thereafter the phase he's got the "DB DBs" was used to describe a surge of Death By Deep Bass Syndrome among members of a website known as AVSforum.

LOL at Bigmouth. Several times during King Kong I thought i was going to need paramedics.

Bpape, do you think he should take the sub out of the room and see if he has pressure or not? If his room is infact as live as you say it is , is there some way he has created a massive null in the frequency that produces the bass he desires with a combination of room characteristics . I thought he mentioned a high dollar receiver, is there a chance he has a parabolic eq that has 10hz -60hz minimized or something? Again I would tear apart the menus here, if he has phase issues , shouldnt he have phase control on a 5K velo? If not, I would be suprised.

I have this image of a an Episode of CSI miami.

Horatio and team are called to this house in Boca to investigate the death in a Home Theater. Laying on the floor is a man with this **** eating grin on his face.

Around the room are a dozen Massive Sub-Woofers.

After investigation it was determined that the man happened to be standing at a peak node when he turned the system on and ran a sweep of deep bass LFE sounds. The intense bass vibrations caused an aneurysm in his brain.

Thereafter the phase he's got the "DB DBs" was used to describe a surge of Death By Deep Bass Syndrome among members of a website known as AVSforum.

Reminds me, did you guys all see the Mythbusters where they were trying to create the "Brown note"? They had something like 32 12" Meyer Sound subwoofers pointed at Jamie and they were sweeping the sine wave to see if it would cause his body to excrete automatically. Never were able to duplicate that, but gave him a full body, internal and external, massage.

Hes also got an HTPC in the mix, recheck all settings on the soundcard, If the room is not dead, theres something set to low gain somewhere or the sub is spent ( cone came unglued from spyder or motor is wore out)

Are speakers set to small? Is he mixing LFE + Mains on the receiver but not on the HTPC ( something conflicting in setups) I find it extremelly hard to believe a phase issue would crush compression on your chest when watching a LFE intense movie

jmorris644:

I cannot imagine the stage is moving. I am currently building the stage and have the cavities 3/4 filled with sand. 3 of us tried to budge it and could not. I don't remember the exact lumber that Ruben used but I have 2x8s throughout the main stage area. Heck, we even tried 3 guys on a single corner and could not get it to budge.
Not the whole stage. Just the top membrane vibrating like a drum. If the sand isn't touching the top membrane, and it's only 3/4" thick, then it's gonna move like a drumskin and the sub is going to be pushing itself back and forth and not the air.

Mark P:

I find it extremelly hard to believe a phase issue would crush compression on your chest when watching a LFE intense movie
Good point.
Anyone know what SandmanX was listening to when he said the bass disappeared?
Specifically was it something that only comes out the LFE channel (in which case who cares what the receiver or HTPC settings are, because it's only going to the subwoofer), or was it something that is directed to the 7 speakers (in which case it could be a bass management aka large/small issue).

Bpape:

It's a sealed front firing sub. There should be plenty of front and side wave with just the wraparound backwave being damped. Agree. I thought I said that. :)

Hes also got an HTPC in the mix, recheck all settings on the soundcard, If the room is not dead, theres something set to low gain somewhere or the sub is spent ( cone came unglued from spyder or motor is wore out)

Are speakers set to small? Is he mixing LFE + Mains on the receiver but not on the HTPC ( something conflicting in setups) I find it extremelly hard to believe a phase issue would crush compression on your chest when watching a LFE intense movie


This may sound stupid, but I had the same problem because I forgot to have the HTPC sound card pass the DD 5.1 through to the receiver. Once I checked the stupid box in the software on the htpc, voila, my bass re-appeared.

This may sound stupid, but I had the same problem because I forgot to have the HTPC sound card pass the DD 5.1 through to the receiver. Once I checked the stupid box in the software on the htpc, voila, my bass re-appeared. Theres subwoofer settings buried in almost everything, Thats why i mentioned the HTPC, its easy to overlook settings there. If i remember corectly I think theres more than 1 in my case, Maybe Theatertek even had a setting? I cant remember.

I can have incomming and outgoing subwoofer flags on the receiver and have no subwoofer, its sounds like theres sub because my mains are decent to 20hz, the subwoofers are moving because the mains are causing them to move ( infinite baffle, no resistance) but they are not working, I then have to go dig through the dozen places that may be causing this and I always forget to document what the problem actually ended up being

Sandman,I wanted to ask you how comfortable your 075 are.I'm getting a great deal on 7 of them with power recliners and butt shakers

Ruben,

Any progress on figuring out the bass issues in your ht?

Thanks

Joe

Sandman,I wanted to ask you how comfortable your 075 are.I'm getting a great deal on 7 of them with power recliners and butt shakers

I think there's a quote in this thread somewhere that he fell asleep in them and he wasn't even watching a movie. Pretty sure that means they're comfortable. :-)

I think there's a quote in this thread somewhere that he fell asleep in them and he wasn't even watching a movie. Pretty sure that means they're comfortable. :-)

I hope it wasn't the one on the pool table!

Bud

http://www.genelec.com/ht/products/hts6/hts6.php

One of the stupidest subwoofers I ever heard. If you have access to Genelec I would try it.

18" are finicky sometimes. Try leaving the door open the to the HT and see what happens. I had similar trouble with a theater w/ 2 HTS 15 Velodynes. They were having trouble moving air because the room was so tight and dead. You could hear them fine, just no "gut" to them.

Sometimes several smaller woofers are better than one large one.

Sandman,I wanted to ask you how comfortable your 075 are.I'm getting a great deal on 7 of them with power recliners and butt shakers

I just received my order of {5} 075 chairs from leatherdirect.com, I think they are comfy. The power recline is very very smooth... Since they are brand new the backs seem a little to firm and puffy. When they are not reclined it kind of feels like you are being pushed off of them more then sinking into them. After they are reclined they are great. And they look awesome.

As for looks, I think they are some of the nicest chairs on the market...

Erik_HTB:
The genelec hts6 did really well in an magazine subwoofer outdoor shootout a few years ago.

I just received my order of {5} 075 chairs from leatherdirect.com, I think they are comfy. The power recline is very very smooth... Since they are brand new the backs seem a little to firm and puffy. When they are not reclined it kind of feels like you are being pushed off of them more then sinking into them. After they are reclined they are great. And they look awesome.

As for looks, I think they are some of the nicest chairs on the market...
Collin,I was curious to know what color combo you had.I was thinking of going all black but I have only seen them in two tone

I have the same color combo as Ruben's only I think my Red is slightly darker. I am building a room based off of Ruben's design {thanks Ruben by the way for that} and I hope it turns out half as nice as his.

The two tone is what really sets these chairs apart from other I think, I'm sure they would look good all black but I think it may take away some of the elegance these chairs provide.

The pictures really dont do them justice at all, In real life the are real stunners and everyone that has seen mine so far cant stop the compliments. Too bad they are going in storage for the next 5 months...

Ruben must be out doing that video project he was talking about. He hasn't posted since April 25th!!

How will we ever get to 2000 posts at this rate? :)

Joe

A quick test to verify that the sub is operating properly and that no hidden menus are disabling it's output, would be to disconnect all the speaker wires and watch a movie with only the sub connected. This would eliminate any cancellation issues between the ML's and the sub, as well as confirm that the sub is not being cut by the receiver, htpc, etc.

For Everyone that was interested in checking out my Home Theater Construction Blog, I am adding my step by step procedure of how I built my room all organized in my SmX Forum.

You can see it by going HERE (http://www.reefin.com/smx/index.php)

You must register as a member to see that forum.

Enjoy!
Ruben

For Everyone that was interested in checking out my Home Theater Construction Blog, I am adding my step by step procedure of how I built my room all organized in my SmX Forum.

You can see it by going HERE (http://www.reefin.com/smx/index.php)

You must register as a member to see that forum.

Enjoy!
Ruben

I assume it is not up yet?
Joe

jmorris644
The http://www.reefin.com/smx/index.php site works fine.
Threads: 29, Posts: 203, Members: 126

I think he means the step by step construction thread on that site.

I think he means the step by step construction thread on that site.

Yes, that is what I meant. Thx.

Joe

I assume it is not up yet?
Joe

It's up, I am just adding to it before I unlock It. I should have it finished by tonight. I'm just organizing a bunch of pictures.

Ruben

Suffering from serious photo update withdrawl.
Doctor said if I want to long for a 'fix' I'm going to go into shock....
Please help, photo's could indeed save my life LOL......

btw
love the new site.

For those that were interested in my Home Theater Blog, I finally got my forum up and opened to all the guests that register. It is still a work in progress but it is all mostly there. I added allot of new pictures that I didn't post here.

You can see it by going HERE (http://www.reefin.com/smx/)

You must register as a member to see the Home Theater Construction forum.


Enjoy!
Ruben

SandmanX:
I'm beginning to lean towards the possibility that with your sub front center that it's perfect, and with it out in the room you're energizing a room mode and getting a boost.

SandmanX:
I'm beginning to lean towards the possibility that with your sub front center that it's perfect, and with it out in the room you're energizing a room mode and getting a boost.

So is this basically the end of this thread for updates on the room?

Hopefully not, he was supposed to be getting final pics with a photographer. I hope he posts them here as well as on his forum.

I think he is just bust with his AT Screens. If you checkout his forum, you will see he has a lot of screen materail to send out across the globe. For his first shipment, he rented the larger delivery trucks from Home Depot and filled it twice to go to Fed-Ex. The had to be 50-60 boxes of precut screen material in each load that he was shipping...and that was just his first round of shipments.

Hopefully, we will see final pics soon.

So is this basically the end of this thread for updates on the room?

It's not end, more coming soon. I still need to finish my Marquee entrance and post the final pictures.

Ruben

I thought that maybe now that you have a blog, you'd post the rest of the build on there instead of here. Glad to hear you'll still update this thread.

Ruben,

How did you treat the first point of reflections on your starred ceiling?

Joe

Ruben,

How did you treat the first point of reflections on your starred ceiling?

Joe

I used 1" 703 on The panel. I just framed out the panel andmounted the 703 then fed the fibers for the star ceiling through it. It was a pain in the ass job to do those 3 panels like that but it worked out fine.

Ruben

SandmanX:
I'm beginning to lean towards the possibility that with your sub front center that it's perfect, and with it out in the room you're energizing a room mode and getting a boost.

Bob,

Any more thoughts or conclusions on the bass issue? I have a similar layout to Ruben's (not finished yet) and am very interested in what you have found out.

I assume that you are the "Bob" over at Acoustics Forum? I am such a newbie to this I really could not even understand what the fellow that responded to your post there was really trying to say. :)

Joe

jmorris644

Any more thoughts or conclusions on the bass issue?Thoughts yes. Conclusions no.

I have a similar layout to Ruben's (not finished yet) and am very interested in what you have found out.I haven't "found out" anything.

I assume that you are the "Bob" over at Acoustics Forum?Yes I am "Bob" at Studiotips (http://forum.studiotips.com/).

I am such a newbie to this I really could not even understand what the fellow that responded to your post there was really trying to say.Which post. I'm over 2000 posts there too. Do you mean the post that WASN'T about SandmanX's room?

jmorris644

Thoughts yes. Conclusions no.

I haven't "found out" anything.

Yes I am "Bob" at Studiotips (http://forum.studiotips.com/).

Which post. I'm over 2000 posts there too. Do you mean the post that WASN'T about SandmanX's room?

Well, maybe the replay wasn't. But your post was :) IT even had a picture of Ruben's room.

Maybe that is why I didn't understand the reply. I was trying to read it in the context of Ruben's room.

Joe

Ruben, I noticed you are having trouble with USB-UIRT and WMCE. Have you figured anything out? I am using XP-Pro but was thinking of switching to WMCE. I bought some xantech stuff too to extend the ir.

Joe

jmorris644
But your post was IT even had a picture of Ruben's room.Actually, it had a picture of how SandmanX's room is NOT.

Hey guys,

I'm trying to decide whether to do red velour curtains or not. What do you guys think? Do you think the room will benefit from it?

Here is a couple Screen shots for those who haven't seen my screen thread.

Screen up from the back of the room, the screen is actually floating on the wall in these Pictures below. It was not in the opening yet...

The screen is the SmX Audio Transparent Material est. 1.2 Gain.

http://loutrixrecords.com/images/theater-pix/my-screen/DSC09402.jpg


http://loutrixrecords.com/images/theater-pix/my-screen/DSC09417.jpg

Ruben

I dunno - curtains might be cool...

I couldn't tell from those pics - did you end up staining the face of those steps or did you just go over them with carpet?

Yeah, It is a little hard to tell from the pics. I believe that curtains really add a final touch, but I would probably do black velour curtains. The black stage that you have already has a nice look to it. I think adding black velvet would enhance what already looks good. Plus it will be easier to match shades of black than shades of red.

Joe

I dont know about curtains, theres something cool about walking in a room and seeing a large 2.35:1 screen considering Rubens room is "clean". I suspect curtains would clutter. Now if he could put a slight curve to the curtains maybe it wouldnt look so " been there, done that" look every single other theater has

I don't know. I like it as is. But remember, I am one of those guys who likes to see the drivers on the speakers too. :)

I dunno - curtains might be cool...

I couldn't tell from those pics - did you end up staining the face of those steps or did you just go over them with carpet?

Nah, I just did all carpet for now. It may be a future upgrade I may do. To be honest, I had enough with staining and preparation to last me a year. I have the curtain track In place I just don't know if it's worth doing some curtains. I can always get them made, throw them up and see If I like them or not. But it's kind of a waste of money to get some $1000 curtains and decide I don't like them.

Anyone here with some good photoshop skills? Maybe cut and paste some curtains from another theater onto my theater?

Thanks
Ruben

Curtains can look good in theaters with a more classical decor. However, your theater has clean lines with an open feel to it. I think curtains could make it look more cluttered as MarkP suggested. The advantage to curtains would be that they could be used for an easy masking solution for your 2:35 screen.

I dont know about curtains, theres something cool about walking in a room and seeing a large 2.35:1 screen considering Rubens room is "clean". I suspect curtains would clutter. Now if he could put a slight curve to the curtains maybe it wouldnt look so " been there, done that" look every single other theater has

Hey Mark, where you been? Haven't heard from you for a while.

Curved curtain track sounds real cool. That would be real interesting. I am already thinking about doing a curved frame for the screen.

Ruben

Hey Mark, where you been? Haven't heard from you for a while.

Been killin grass in my spare time, all 5 acres of lawn was taken over by velvet/crab grass with this crappo winter we had. In a mad rush to get it all done and re-seeded by tomorrow or the next day when the rains come back for a couple days and give me free water. Plus we were sick of the rye grass being so wimpy and letting weeds and such in so we are changing to good ole native Oregon tall turf fescue, that stuff will strangle out your pets if you dont watch it

Spring time means dawn to dust for about a month every year

Do waterfall curtains...you don't see that every day in HTs.

Been killin grass in my spare time, all 5 acres of lawn was taken over by velvet/crab grass with this crappo winter we had. In a mad rush to get it all done and re-seeded by tomorrow or the next day when the rains come back for a couple days and give me free water. Plus we were sick of the rye grass being so wimpy and letting weeds and such in so we are changing to good ole native Oregon tall turf fescue, that stuff will strangle out your pets if you dont watch it

Spring time means dawn to dust for about a month every year

Whoot! I don't get developers and grass... they throw pussy grass down all over here for some reason. (Kentucky Blue Grass) It dies in a heart beat unless you baby sit the stuff. I'm told they don't even want it in Kentucky, and some treat it like a weed there... I'm trying to get it all subplanted with tough as nails fescue just like you. I like mowing my grass a little tall, never fertilize it, and always mulch. Don't bag. I get the greenest lawn with the least effort. Screw Scotts, that company is evil.

Whoot! I don't get developers and grass... they throw pussy grass down all over here for some reason. (Kentucky Blue Grass) It dies in a heart beat unless you baby sit the stuff. I'm told they don't even want it in Kentucky, and some treat it like a weed there... I'm trying to get it all subplanted with tough as nails fescue just like you. I like mowing my grass a little tall, never fertilize it, and always mulch. Don't bag. I get the greenest lawn with the least effort. Screw Scotts, that company is evil. We completely killed everything because it was such a mish mosh of BS. We used Cornerstone ( roundup) and a boom/sprayer mystifier on a tractor and just went ballastic , I so tired of rye letting everything and its mother grow. All my neighbors are grass farmers and vinyards and hazelnuters and my good friend grows tall turf fescue called Rebel 3 ( the stuff is outlawed in certain areas of the world because it chokes everything) it has a 99% germ and 0% anything else and we are putting on 400lbs per acre. Your right Scotts is a joke, check out their label sometime, its full of weeds and clover and expensive as heck. Alot of folks with small lawns around here go clean out combines during harvest and reseed yearly.

Are we off topic with all this grass talk?

So Guys, If I don't do curtains, should I bother with Prosceniums on the sides?

Thanks
Ruben

If you do, don't make it black. I like proscenium walls because they give the front stage some depth and definition. However, you already have some columns up there flanking the stage so they may not be as important in your case. Also, you want to be sure you don't crowd your screen. If you build proscenium walls, be sure you leave some nice space between them and the edge of the screen. In my first room there was a measurement problem in the design and I ended up with this:

http://www.reedsplace.com/Theater/tprojector.jpg

You don't want that.

Ruben, I wanted to ask you about your American Lites. Are these the lights that you purchased? (http://www.specialtysupplies.com/black-p-1600.html) Also did the instructions warn you not to install those lights into ceilings/soffits or place the power cord in/through walls?

I am only asking because I found some similar lights (see attachment) at HD from Hampton Bay that says you can do recessed applications. But when you look at the fine print in the instructions it says not for use in ceilings/soffits, etc. Know I am sure this is for liability reasons, but I was wondering if your light instructions said the same thing.

Thanks

Drew

Ruben, I wanted to ask you about your American Lites. Are these the lights that you purchased? (http://www.specialtysupplies.com/black-p-1600.html) Also did the instructions warn you not to install those lights into ceilings/soffits or place the power cord in/through walls?

I am only asking because I found some similar lights (see attachment) at HD from Hampton Bay that says you can do recessed applications. But when you look at the fine print in the instructions it says not for use in ceilings/soffits, etc. Know I am sure this is for liability reasons, but I was wondering if your light instructions said the same thing.

Thanks

Drew

The Lights from Specialty look like the ones I got (Picture is real small). You can see an extreme close up of my lights in my other construction thread here http://www.smxscreen.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34

Those hampton bay hockey puck lights are nothing like what I have.

Ruben

Ruben,

I've been searching your thread looking for 2 things that I just couldn't find....

1. What is the width and height of your light tray? In you seats, can you see the edges of the star ceiling at all, or does it just disappear beacuse the tray is wide enough?

2. Did you get any pics of how you routed the fiber optic cables thru the soffit/tray to the ceiling?

Thanks!

Ruben, I wanted to ask you about your American Lites. Are these the lights that you purchased? (http://www.specialtysupplies.com/black-p-1600.html) Also did the instructions warn you not to install those lights into ceilings/soffits or place the power cord in/through walls?

I am only asking because I found some similar lights (see attachment) at HD from Hampton Bay that says you can do recessed applications. But when you look at the fine print in the instructions it says not for use in ceilings/soffits, etc. Know I am sure this is for liability reasons, but I was wondering if your light instructions said the same thing.

Thanks

Drew

I was just speaking with my electrician about this yesterday. We were talking about the different lights being UL approved or not. Basically he said that anything that you plug in is viewed as a dumb consumer lamp and does not need UL approval. Almost anything that is hard wired does need approval. So that is why the consumer is seeing more lighting options available that have plug ins.

I bought 14 of the exact same lights that Ruben used in his light trays. Actually, I bought them from the same place too. They are really nice 4" plugin lights. They are not UL approved, similarly to the puck lights.

So I am using those lights only in the light trays. They are perfect for that because you really don't want cans in the light trays because you would probably see them. Ruben's lights are only about 3 inches tall.

I have also found 2 places to get UL approved 4" cans and inserts from. The first is Menards. I was surprised to find my choice of 4 really nice 4" swivel inserts with accompanying cans. They are halogen and come in brushed satin, brass, antique brass, and white. They are $14.99 each including everything except the bulb.

The other source was http://www.sonriselighting.com/docs/recessed/ They have all kinds of lightings and are extremely reasonable. Kind of slow in shipping though. About 2 weeks.

Joe

Ruben,

I've been searching your thread looking for 2 things that I just couldn't find....

1. What is the width and height of your light tray? In you seats, can you see the edges of the star ceiling at all, or does it just disappear beacuse the tray is wide enough?

2. Did you get any pics of how you routed the fiber optic cables thru the soffit/tray to the ceiling?

Thanks!

The lights that Ruben has in the trays are 4". You can get a pretty good idea of the size of the tray based on that.

Joe

Ruben,

I've been searching your thread looking for 2 things that I just couldn't find....

1. What is the width and height of your light tray? In you seats, can you see the edges of the star ceiling at all, or does it just disappear beacuse the tray is wide enough?

2. Did you get any pics of how you routed the fiber optic cables thru the soffit/tray to the ceiling?

Thanks!

The Height of the tray is 5". You don't see the walls behind the trays in seating position. The star ceiling fades into the trays. The tray width is 10" about 8" from the front soffit Wall to the back of the tray wall.

The fiber cables just ran across the ceiling above the panels. 6 Panels on one light box and the other 6 on another one. No pictures of that unfortunately.

Ruben

Ruben,

Great thread. I tried to search and didn't find the answer. What brand and style is the carpet that you used? I'm about to the point of having to pick out my carpet, and love the look of yours. THANKS! Andrew.

the answer is at the bottom of this thread: SMX Theater Carpet Thread (http://www.smxscreen.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40)

Ruben,

Great thread. I tried to search and didn't find the answer. What brand and style is the carpet that you used? I'm about to the point of having to pick out my carpet, and love the look of yours. THANKS! Andrew.

It is Made by Masland Carpet and its called the Quadrate and the Color is called 18404 Times Square. Comes in different colors too. Go to http://www.maslandcarpets.com/Broadl...dloom_main.htm then on the left side look for Office/Home then look for Quadrate

I got it locally from Miami Carpet for around $4.00 a square foot.

so whats going on with this bass problem? sounds like maybe some seat shakers would help or just double up on the subs.

rueben, I think maybe a set of curtains with red and black separated fashionably would set off the room.

when you finish it aproximatly.....sand.???

Guys, I want to share this with you... http://www.outwater.com/
They have everything you could possibly imagine for building, trimming, lighting etc. and extremely good prices too. They have an online catalog but they also mail you a huge catalog as well if you request it. They stock everything there as well. I use to buy from them all the time when I lived in NY. They sell architectural moldings and all.

Ruben

http://www.outwater.com/ domain name not working??

Guys, I want to share this with you...

Great website!

thanks

http://www.outwater.com/ domain name not working??

Works for me, you can also Google them, Outwater Plastics they are In Outwater NJ IIRC.

Works now thanks. intresting site

All @$#@#$'ing right, if I kick in $200.00 can we get 'final' pictures of your entire room!! If I see one more side topic started I'm going to go ^%$^&&$## postal. NEEED PICTURES....NOW!!!

Did someone not take their Ritalin?...

Okay, so I admit I'm anxious as well, but patience is a virtue (provided there is light at the end of the tunnel!) :)

Where's the light though?

Hi Folks,

I posted this in The Processors section here at AVS but I wanted to ask you guys too.

I'm looking for a new processor for my Theater. Right now I have a B&K AVR-507 and 2 B&K 200.1 Monoblocks. I am looking for something with DVI and component switching. I have the Ophit 4 channel DVI switcher and I am having allot of problems with it communicating and syncing with my set up. So good switching is a must.

I only need 2 DVI inputs right Now (HTPC and HD SAT Box)

The Speakers I have in my room now are Martin logan Odysseys, Theater Center, and 4 Scripts and a Velodyne DD 18 Sub. But I am most likley going to pull the Logans out and do Axioms or Triads, as the Logans don't sound good in the room.

My primary listening is Movies 90% and 10% music. I want real good surround processing.

I was talking to Makeit57 who has an Outlaw 990 and says reviews compare it to a Lexicon MC12. He also has a Outlaw 770 Amp and using this with Axioms and loves the combo.

My budget will be whatever I can sell my Mint AVR 507 and Monoblocks for plus a few more bucks.

Thanks
Ruben

That's funny.. I was going to suggest the Outlaw 990 since I think it does everything you want (most notably, DVI/HDMI switching.. you can use an adapter for whichever type it's not).

I don't have first hand experience, though. It's just on my short list of pre/pros.

The Anthem D2 looks like a neat product. I believe it has 4 HDMI inputs for video switching and is also a video processor.

I do not have any first hand experience with the D2.

Here is a link:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=662580

I am not sure if the D2 has any room correction yet but I think as the final tweak you may want that.

Also the Triads are great speakers, Dennis E. recommends and sells them.

I imagine the Anthem is a great unit. Of course, the Anthem costs 5 times what the Outlaw does.

Ruben - I am in the same position (but probably without your budget). My short list came down to the 990 and a good AVR used as a pre-pro. I'm pretty sure I've settled on the Pioneer Elite 74 (or its replacement if it comes out soon enough) because the 990 only has DVI switching, no HDMI inputs. This is important for me because I have a 7.1 setup and want to deliver DD+ decoded 5.1 digital streams via HDMI and then apply the BM and 7.1 processing to them. The Pioneer can do this but the Outlaw cannot.

As far as processing quality goes, I imagine there is a difference but I'm not sure how much of one when you are talking about almost all movies with a standard scheme (like DPLIIx) applied to them. In my last room I replaced a Lexicon processor with a Pioneer Elite AVR used as a pre-pro and could discern no loss in quality of sound. I am a believer that the room, speakers and amps have a lot more to do with the sound than the processor (when talking movie soundtracks).

Which ever you choose make sure it has rock solid switching and does not add signal noise, also HDMI gets tempermental after it switches 1 time, start throwing scalers (because of anamorphic lens) in the picture on top of a 30' run of DVI to your PJ and good luck getting HDMI to DVI to work flawlessly

Well the good thing is it will either work or it won't, being that it's digital. It will also be retransmitted between components, so as long as each link in the chain can successfully transmit the bit stream, you're fine.

The D2 is one to drool over.. especially the 1080p upconversion.

ebr, will it not work to use an HDMI->DVI adapter? (I can't figure out what BM refers to in that context).

If you use an HDMI --> DVI adapter you will drop the audio. DVI does not carry audio, only HDMI does and the outlaw has no way to accept the HDMI audio streams.

BM = Bass Management.

I'm assuming, of course, that you'd use the digital audio out as well.

I'm assuming, of course, that you'd use the digital audio out as well.

Right - but that will only carry the "legacy" DTS or DD audio streams. The new HD discs will downrez their audio to one of these (DTS in the case of the current HD-DVD player) for output on the optical or coax connection. The decoded DD+ or DTSHD or TrueHD streams will only be passed on HDMI or analog connections and the analog inputs on the Outlaw (and every other processor/AVR I know of) will not allow further processing of the signal (to handle BM and 7.1 steering).

Right - but that will only carry the "legacy" DTS or DD audio streams. The new HD discs will downrez their audio to one of these (DTS in the case of the current HD-DVD player) for output on the optical or coax connection. The decoded DD+ or DTSHD or TrueHD streams will only be passed on HDMI or analog connections and the analog inputs on the Outlaw (and every other processor/AVR I know of) will not allow further processing of the signal (to handle BM and 7.1 steering).
WTF? That doesn't make any sense... (The design, not your explanation ;)) Looks like I have some reading to do in the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD forum... Hopefully I can wade through the prevalent format wars in that forum...

Thanks for the info, ebr.

As I understand it, S/PDIF and TOS-Link don't have enough bandwidth to pass the new formats.

Ah, it must be in the encoding/decoding then, because the medium certainly isn't the limiting factor. But I'll refer to some other threads on the subject to avoid hijacking Ruben's.. Thanks for the info, guys.

Great...make that Awesome job on the theater,
you have without doubt raised the diy home theater bar.

it has made me get off my butt and finish planning mine and start the pre demo clean out.
I really want to have a htpc to store all my dvd's but the cost and reliability of the hd's are an issue, I might just set up a small one with a few of my favorite movies and my music till something better comes along.

good luck with finishing off the theater, too bad you are having issues with the speakers.
I can't wait to see the finished product and the pro pictures :cool:


the D2 is at the top of a short list of pre/pros that I'm looking at, the upgradeability and support of the Anthem line is unheard of.

S/PDIF and TOS-Link have No SACD or DVD-A support.
HDMI was designed to carry 8-channels, of 192kHz, 24-bit uncompressed audio,
HDMI version 1.2 features support for One Bit Audio format, such as SuperAudio CD's DSD,
HDMI version 1.3 will cover the new formats, Dolby TrueHD, DD+, DTS-HD.

Hey guys

Tomorrow I am going to build my compound curved 2.35:1 screen with the SmX Sound Screen Material. I am buliding it out of Extruded Aluminum 2" x 2". The frame will have a 16 foot radius Horizontal curve and a 24 foot radius vertical curve.

I will post some pictures tomorrow as I build it and get the Aluminum rolled/bent to radius in the shop.

I'm going to cross post this in my Screen thread as well.

Ruben

You may want to read the other thread about that. Compound curve screens are putting you in Torus land and you cannot do Torus screens with your screen material or any other flexible acoustically transparent screen material unless you have some design that hasn't been sen before to get the material to flex back into the frame with a perfect curve.

You may want to read the other thread about that. Compound curve screens are putting you in Torus land and you cannot do Torus screens with your screen material or any other flexible acoustically transparent screen material unless you have some design that hasn't been sen before to get the material to flex back into the frame with a perfect curve.

I'm confused about that response. So you are saying I can't adjust the material in 2 directions?

Edit: Also, what about major movie houses with compound curved accoustic screens? The ones I been to are non Torus screens. This is all experimental as well, It's only costing me a few bucks to make the frame.

Ruben

I just bent a few pieces of wood and thought about this problem.

As I understand your plan the four corners of the frame will be forward from the wall. If you attach stings to the diag. corners and apply tension, the stings will be flat. sitting in front of the bulk of the frame. Consider those the diag. forces.

Now you will have those diag. forces on the fabric wanting to keep it straight fighting the "square" side to side and top to bottom forces trying to create your double bend. Also factor in the fact that there are an infinite number of directional forces going in 360 degrees and the Problem is compounded.

But I am sure you'll figure out a solution to this brain teaser.

I'm thinking you could create a giant fiberglass form in the shape you want. Soak the SMX in a tub of starch. Lay on the ballon and let harden. Then mount on a frame?

Another idea is to get some SMX string and pull the screen back from the back side and tie off?

OK I found one now to figure out how they did it.

http://www.dvdfreax.com/theater/october2005/index.php

OK found it

Screen
"Torus" -shaped screen with an aspect ratio of 1.85:1
Curved horizontally 15cm (6") and vertically 4.5cm (1.8")
402cm (158") x 218cm (86")
Screen fabric: Vutec Pearlbrite, gain 3.1
D-I-Y screen
Fabric tensioned to air-tight box, which has 2 fans to suck the fabric to a perfect toroidial shape

I'm trying to accomplish this http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/home_cinema_screens/cinecurve.html are the cinecurves only curved horizontally and not vertically too? Because it looks both directions to me, but it may be an optical illusion.

Ruben

Looks like only one direction to me.

I'm wondering if it would be possible to do the air pressure method with an AT screen? I'm guessing the volume would be too noisy?


If you are going to try an experiment.

Fasten the four middles first with a LOT of tension. This would anchor the center as far back in the frame as possible.

Then as you move to the corners apply a steadily declining force until you get to the corners where the fabric should be just sitting there almost with no tension.

I'm guessing this is going to be a real challenge with the Pizza wheel fastening technique.

Looks like only one direction to me.

I'm wondering if it would be possible to do the air pressure method with an AT screen? I'm guessing the volume would be too noisy?


If you are going to try an experiment.

Fasten the four middles first with a LOT of tension. This would anchor the center as far back in the frame as possible.

Then as you move to the corners apply a steadily declining force until you get to the corners where the fabric should be just sitting there almost with no tension.

I'm guessing this is going to be a real challenge with the Pizza wheel fastening technique.

That makes my life much easier then if the curve is only horizontal. Phew. I guess my movie house is the same thing. Just looks like a 2 way bend.

A taurus AT Screen? LOL, imagine the dust after a week or two sucking through the perfs.

The aluminum will be rolled to a 16 foot radius. 16 feet is the distance from my lens to the screen wall thus giving me the radius.

Ruben

Dust? with all that volume it wouldn't stand a chance. Just have to be careful not to let children or pets get to close to the screen.

I can hear your friends now. "Yea, I was at Rubens last night and his screen really sucks"

Maybe the next hurricane that comes your way you can leave a window open and try an experiment for us.

What kind of place did you find to bend the frame? I am thinking of getting a stainless steel bar foot rest and I need a 2 inch pipe curved out about 12 inches on a 10.5 ft run. I need to get it done in a way that the pipe doesn't flatten too much or the supports won't slide on.

I thought projector lenses were designed to focus assuming the screens were flat.

I thought projector lenses were designed to focus assuming the screens were flat.Anamorphic pincushion, even the best have it

Yes, even the best anamorphic lenses will have some geometric distortion, but that doesn't change that the optics of the projector are designed to focus on flat screens. There's no such thing as a free lunch and so you are giving up a little focus to get rid of pin cushion.

With pincushion, you can mask to hide it, but what will you do with the focus issue?

One other benefit of the curved screens is reducing some of the drawbacks of higher gain screens, which is why they have been very popular.

Ruben, I think you need to do the fan box behind the tarus screen. Why? Just because you have done everything else to the same level of detail that this would require. Problem is, you probably don't have the space for a box like that (would not have to be all that big, but it would have to have fans powerfull enough to pull some air and quiet enough to not create the noise level.

Could be done. With the area of the screen, it probably wouldn't require all that much fan power even though it is not a solid screen, since there would be resistance as long as you moved enough air.

Scott, ain't no way it is happening. Not only would there be a massive amount of air required, you have to remember that the woven screens are much thicker/stiffer than the vinyl screens that are used for vacuum torus applications.

Putting that much air though the screen would make the screen dirty fairly quickly as it becomes a large filter unless you watch the movies in a clean room. Also, a fan that would move enough air would make a lot of noise and even if you eliminate that noise, you have to deal with the noise generated by the air going through the screen with enough force to bend it. None of these screens move when a sub is right behind them firing away, so think of how much air you really have to move.

What kind of place did you find to bend the frame? I am thinking of getting a stainless steel bar foot rest and I need a 2 inch pipe curved out about 12 inches on a 10.5 ft run. I need to get it done in a way that the pipe doesn't flatten too much or the supports won't slide on.

Just a local metal shop with a rolling machine. Basically a rolling machine is 3 solid steel rolling bars that adjust to bend steel, including hard bends on I-Beams.

Looks like this. I will bring the camera to the metal shop tomorrow and shoot some flicks as they bend it.

http://mfiinternational.com.au/images%5Cproduct%5C82.jpg

I'm trying to accomplish this http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/home_cinema_screens/cinecurve.html are the cinecurves only curved horizontally and not vertically too? Because it looks both directions to me, but it may be an optical illusion.

Ruben

It's clearly just curved horizontally. The vertical sides are straight; if there were also a vertical curve the vertical sides would be curved as the horizontial sides are.

Curving in both axes wouldn't work. If you imagine the screen as a graph paper grid, you can curve the paper along either the x- or y-axis, and the paper will lie flat and the grid will still be all squares. If trying to curve the paper along both axes, the paper would have to have elastic properties to conform to the contours, and the only square grids would be in the center; as you moved towards the sides they would become progressively stretched (non-rectangular).

It's clearly just curved horizontally. The vertical sides are straight; if there were also a vertical curve the vertical sides would be curved as the horizontial sides are.

Curving in both axes wouldn't work. If you imagine the screen as a graph paper grid, you can curve the paper along either the x- or y-axis, and the paper will lie flat and the grid will still be all squares. If trying to curve the paper along both axes, the paper would have to have elastic properties to conform to the contours, and the only square grids would be in the center; as you moved towards the sides they would become progressively stretched (non-rectangular).

Yes, they would be non-rectangluar when viewed from a perpendicular angle, but when viewed from the center point of the radius, they will appear geometrically correct.

This does bring up a point, however. With such a screen, people on the edges will experience a bit of geometric distortion in the image they see.

Yes, they would be non-rectangluar when viewed from a perpendicular angle, but when viewed from the center point of the radius, they will appear geometrically correct.

This does bring up a point, however. With such a screen, people on the edges will experience a bit of geometric distortion in the image they see.

You wouldn't have to get to the point where you're perpendicular (horizontally) to see the distortion of a given grid. As the viewer moves horizontally away from the focal point of the radius (assuming you have seating for more than 1 ;) ), the grid distortion would gradually become more and more visible. Same applies in vertical direction (risers, different head heights). You also lose the illusion of all squares in the grid as you move backwards or forwards from the focal point. In other words, unless your head is at the focal point of both radii, the grid becomes distorted.

With pincushion, you can mask to hide it, but what will you do with the focus issue?

The bend is 9"from the wall on both ends, let's see what happen's with focus. It is all experimental. It may be fine, I still have my flat frame as well if the curved doesn't work out. I will be using an ISCO lens if this guy I'm buying it off ever emails me back.

This is a top view of the bend to scale.
http://www.smxscreen.com/images/smx-curve.gif


http://www.smxscreen.com/images/smx-curve-2.gif

I used the graph paper visualization because I'm assuming most (all?) non-commercial lenses are designed to project onto a flat plane, so it's like your trying to superimpose something flat on a curved surface.

But even if a lens is designed to project onto a surface with both x- and y-axis curvatures, moving off the focal point causes the image to distort. Imagine sitting in the middle of a sphere with globe-like longitude and latitude lines. From the center of the sphere, all grids along the 'equator' appear as true squares (which they are). Move away from the center of the sphere, and those squares begin to distort.

From the center of the sphere, all grids along the 'equator' appear as true squares (which they are). Move away from the center of the sphere, and those squares begin to distort.
A nitpick, but they are not actually "true squares".

I'm excited that you're looking into the curved screen route, Ruben. I'm planning on that design as well. However, in my research I've learned that the proper radius is not equal to the throw distance, or seating distance. It's something of a combination between those factors as well as the lens and projector. It's a complex calculation that I'm not sure how to do, but if you search here for curved screen radius calculations it will probably turn up some interesting info. Both Alan and Dennis were involved in the discussion that I remember.

I found the thread about calculating screen curvature (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=586590)....

What problem are you attempting to solve with a curved screen? Or, were you just looking for a challenge...?

I think hes trying to solve the problem of being like everybody else. A curved screen adds a factor of cool to the front of the room even if it is slightly curved. Poindextor brings up a good point though, while it may be nice with nothing projecting, it may hinder the best experience during watching movies. I am glad Rubens going to find out and save me possibly more money on two 14' long peices of aluminum being bent.

A nitpick, but they are not actually "true squares".


Nitpick answer: true -- I should have said they appear as true squares: all 4 lines intersect at 90 degree angles (assuming small squares), and all z-axis variations of the lines disappear to the observer (all points on the surface of a sphere are equidistant from the center point).

Hi Folks,

So today I went to bend my movie screen frame. I snapped some pictures for those who wanted to know how they bend it.

Here is the aluminum extrusions I used. They are 2" x 2" x 12 feet long. They have a 1/16" wall.

http://www.smxscreen.com/images/bent-frame/DSC09685.jpg

Here is the machine they used to bend the extrusions. The wheels on it in this picture are for bending pipe. They had to change Those extremely heavy wheels with a fork lift and a lifting belt.

http://www.smxscreen.com/images/bent-frame/DSC09688.jpg

Here are the wheels being changed using a forklift and a belt. Those wheels weigh about 400 lbs each.

http://www.smxscreen.com/images/bent-frame/DSC09690.jpg

http://www.smxscreen.com/images/bent-frame/DSC09691.jpg

The 3 new wheels are now on the machine and ready to bend the 2" extrusions..

http://www.smxscreen.com/images/bent-frame/DSC09710.jpg

The aluminum extrusion goes in on the right side. You see it in the machine on the right Side going In between the wheels.

http://www.smxscreen.com/images/bent-frame/DSC09699.jpg

Then it feeds through with the bottom wheels guiding it and the top wheel creating the bend.

http://www.smxscreen.com/images/bent-frame/DSC09702.jpg

Here is a close up of the wheels on the machine.

http://www.smxscreen.com/images/bent-frame/DSC09707.jpg

Almost done.

http://www.smxscreen.com/images/bent-frame/DSC09703.jpg

All Done.

http://www.smxscreen.com/images/bent-frame/DSC09705.jpg

Unfortunately the 2" Aluminum I used had a 1/16" wall and the machine kind of crushed it. It is still usable to test however.

Tomorrow they are picking up some 2" x 2" aluminum extrusions with a 1/8" wall that won't crush like these did. So I will be picking up those tomorrow.

Later on I will make the frame with the stuff I got now just to check sizing. Thanks miltimj for the link to the formula to get the radius.

Posting this in the Screen thread as well.
Ruben

Hi Folks,

So today I went to bend my movie screen frame.
Ruben

I don't know why but sometimes you just crack me up. ^_^

I don't know why but sometimes you just crack me up. ^_^

:D

I was reading in one of Staged threads that he had the Sony 777 DVD changer modded to use SDI out. Does anyone here know about those type of mods?

Thanks
Ruben

SDI modification makes a digital transport out of the dvd player. You skip a digital to analog conversion (when using the component outputs), plus an analog to digital conversion to scale. Noticeable improvement in picture quality. Better colour vibrancey and more 3D pop to the image, due to less noise.

Excellent performance to cost ratio if your scaler or pj has a SDI input, or option for one.

There's an extensive Poor Man's SDI thread. Some players require fine soldering skills to solder to chipset legs, while some players have suitable solder points on the motherboard.

SDI modification makes a digital transport out of the dvd player. You skip a digital to analog conversion (when using the component outputs), plus an analog to digital conversion to scale. Noticeable improvement in picture quality. Better colour vibrancey and more 3D pop to the image, due to less noise.

Excellent performance to cost ratio if your scaler or pj has a SDI input, or option for one.

There's an extensive Poor Man's SDI thread. Some players require fine soldering skills to solder to chipset legs, while some players have suitable solder points on the motherboard.

Would you happen to have the url to that thread? I can't seem to find it.

thanks

Joe

edit: ok, i get it :) "Poor Man's SDI" is the actual title of the thread.

AVS Thread: Poor Man's SDI (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=47128)

I think JVB Digital was the only one that was doing SDI mods for changers - i could be wrong.

Ruben, SDI is a MAJOR step up in scaling vs using an analog connection to a scaler. You will not regret it. You can also run SDI for a very long distance, allowing you to move the changer into another part of the house if you run out of room in the rack or want to cut down on light and noise from the transport

I think JVB Digital was the only one that was doing SDI mods for changers - i could be wrong.

Ruben, SDI is a MAJOR step up in scaling vs using an analog connection to a scaler. You will not regret it. You can also run SDI for a very long distance, allowing you to move the changer into another part of the house if you run out of room in the rack or want to cut down on light and noise from the transport

http://www.msbtech.com/products/sdi.php does SDI upgrades for a couple hundred bucks less than JVB Digital I just learned. It may be worth the upgrade to get HTPC performance off a DVD changer. Only prob is the Scalers I've seen only have 2 SDI inputs. I have 3 Jukeboxes right now and mybe more in the future. Maybe an SDI switcher? But I want to eliminate 3rd party switching.

I would really love to have the same digital quality as my HTPC in a DVD jukebox without having to Rip 1200 DVDs to HD

Ruben

On the Subwoofer issue I had, I learned that I had an issue with the sub itself. So I sent the Amp Plate out to velodyne for repair and they also updated all the parts and Rev to the latest and greatest on the 18" Sub. I should Have it back in a few days.

Ruben

http://www.msbtech.com/products/sdi.php does SDI upgrades for a couple hundred bucks less than JVB Digital I just learned. It may be worth the upgrade to get HTPC performance off a DVD changer. Only prob is the Scalers I've seen only have 2 SDI inputs. I have 3 Jukeboxes right now and mybe more in the future. Maybe an SDI switcher? But I want to eliminate 3rd party switching.

I would really love to have the same digital quality as my HTPC in a DVD jukebox without having to Rip 1200 DVDs to HD

Ruben

Ruben,

If you are interested the scaler that comes with the new Optoma 1080P projector looks like it has 4 HDMI Inputs.

http://www.optoma.co.uk/optomav2/modules/Otherpress/Optoma%20HD81-Infocomm-Press-Release.pdf

Joe

Ruben, maybe this will solve your DVD library needs:

http://www.plasmon.com/dvd/dvdlibraries.html

You could even burn your movies to 2-sided DVD's and get 4300 movies in one library the size of a refrigerator. And with multiple drives in the library you can watch a different movie in each room of your house! Video on demand for all your guests.

Curved Screen Update.

I used Dazian to test for now for sizing. What I am going to do is bend some 2" x 2"s with the Spline grooves in the front of the frame instead of the back this time for the final frame. The spline side is much stronger than the non spline side that crushed.

With the spline in the front of the frame, it is much easier to spine the smx in place and then on the back of the frame. Then to cover the spline, I will trim out the frame with a beveled wood (like a small base board) wrapped In black velour screwed in place from the back of the aluminum frame.

It should look really sweet once trimmed out with the black velour frame.

As far as focus issues there are none. I ran some test patterns and it looked the same from edge to edge as far as I can tell on the Dazian CCC.

Some Pictures

Angle brackets used on all the inner corners.

http://www.smxscreen.com/images/curved-screen/DSC09716.jpg

Frame Complete.

http://www.smxscreen.com/images/curved-screen/DSC09717.jpg

Frame fits in existing opening.

http://www.smxscreen.com/images/curved-screen/DSC09722.jpg

http://www.smxscreen.com/images/curved-screen/DSC09723.jpg

Support brackets used on back of frame.

http://www.smxscreen.com/images/curved-screen/DSC09726.jpg

http://www.smxscreen.com/images/curved-screen/DSC09727.jpg

Wrapped in Dazian for testing.
http://www.smxscreen.com/images/curved-screen/DSC09732.jpg

Dang it Ruben!!! That looks way too cool not to do it. Grrr. More work for me. :)

Joe

But now, you gotta curve your screenwall opening too...

;)

Never ceases to amaze me the things you are pulling off Ruben, Excellent works, looks great !!!

But now, you gotta curve your screenwall opening too...

;)

Working on that now. ;)

Very nice looking screen!

Good job Ruben, glad you didnt have focus problems! Guess thats another theory shot down. Cant wait to hear/see the results of the SMX curved screen. Now you you dont have to have all your speakers in a sraight line, another benefit of the curve

Just thinking aloud, but would the bent screen help fight moiré problems or is stretching the fabric with a slight rotation still a better way to fight it?

Wow, very cool. I'm looking forward to seeing what it's like with the velour/trim front.

Why does the top middle of the last picture look like it's not attached completely? It just seems odd that you'd "install" it in there without the top pulled taught.

Great job! Keep 'em coming! :)