I am ready to pay for the 800 at 720p as long as an upgrade to 1080p can be done with minimal cost.
Reasonable?

Really hope the 800 comes with c-2 fine technology.

Guess we'll have to split this thread among the two forums.

Well at least at $2500 MSRP the 550 still looks like a very promising model for this forum...

Ursa: OK, I did not see that, all I saw was the projector description page and resolution is not marked there. BTW I never thought the 800 was 1080p, that was why I said I posted it just to be a pain

Anthony - No sweat. The 1080p model will get here soon enough, but just not this one. I'm looking for CES at this point.

Oh, yeah, and at $6k, thanks to Sony! :)

Later,
Bill

No one has seen the Epson projectors at CEDIA yet?

According to Jason (in the sticky thread >3500 forum) Epson was not set-up properly and nothing could be determined from it. He also said Epson doe also tend to have other locations that tend to b well set-up but he did not hear anything about it

I'm looking for CES at this point.

still sucks, that was what we were saying last year

Oh, yeah, and at $6k, thanks to Sony!

I would look at the Sony but I want something with a bit more kick 800 lumens is just to little

Yeah, Epson should give us a good mix of brightness and contrast at 1080p. I am just hoping that the realized street pricing gets realigned as I hope!

Has anyone figured out the difference between the TW600 and the Cinema 800, besides the $2000 price difference. Could Epson really release the same projector in Europe and the U.S. and charge significanlty different prices.

Has anyone figured out the difference between the TW600 and the Cinema 800, besides the $2000 price difference. Could Epson really release the same projector in Europe and the U.S. and charge significanlty different prices.

Yep.

Companies do it all the time so I dont see why they wouldn't here.

Hitachi did the same thing with the PJ-TX100. Originally much cheaper in Europe and Japan.

I saw the 800 and 550 at the offsite location where it was a much better setup than at the show. They were just using matte white hotel screens, so there certainly was no improvement based on the screen. I saw little difference between the two. The 800 does have ISF-certified viewing modes that greatly reduces the need for calibration, but the panels, iris and many other features were the same with both models. The 800 uses some additional processing to get the CR higher. I imagine that the 550, with calibration, would differ very little from the 800 with most source material.

Both looked very good with the best blacks I've seen on LCDs in this price range (in addition to the Panny AE900). It would be nice to compare the AE900 and 550 (or 800) side-by-side, as they appeared similar in performance.

"Both looked very good with the best blacks I've seen on LCDs in this price range"

Does the price range caveat means perhaps that blacks are still not as good as the HS51?

Thanks

noah k.
The 800 is expensive in the USA so I interpret it as 800 being better than hs50. I wonder if both were using the cinema filter. Also the lamp power will have a good influence on the actual black level.

The 550 and the Panasonic AE900 are two very interesting projectors.

Throw the Z4 into the mix and this will be a good year for low cost LCD's...

I did neglect to mention that the 800 comes with an extra lamp, a one year lamp warranty (finally!), a ceiling mount and an extra year warranty over the 550 (3 years vs. 2). Both have 100% vertical and 50% horizontal lens shift.

Does anyone know if the 550 and/or 800 have a 15-pin VGA input (or 5 rca analog input-r,g,b,h,v). My 2 older hd sat receiver boxes send much better picture through the vga rather than the component output.

Shelly

Oh, yeah, and at $6k, thanks to Sony! :)



Huh? Are you saying that's what the new Sony SXRD will go for?

Hi to you all.
Maybe you've missed it, but I've posted some TW600 "IN ACTION" pics in the AvForum

Shelly you can find a shot showing the connections of the TW600 (aka PC800) in the thread and on the link I posted in that thread you can see the TW520 (AKA 550) connections panel, anyway the answer is yes, they both have d-sub vga input :)

Bye :)

Roberto

PS Sorry I cannot post link as I'm totally noob here, so someone please go to AVFORUM and link the thread "Epson TW600 In Action Live Pics"

Hi to you all.
Maybe you've missed it, but I've posted some TW600 "IN ACTION" pics in the AvForum

Shelly you can find a shot showing the connections of the TW600 (aka PC800) in the thread and on the link I posted in that thread you can see the TW520 (AKA 550) connections panel, anyway the answer is yes, they both have d-sub vga input :)

Bye :)

Roberto

PS Sorry I cannot post link as I'm totally noob here, so someone please go to AVFORUM and link the thread "Epson TW600 In Action Live Pics"

et voila:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243497

Huh? Are you saying that's what the new Sony SXRD will go for?

no, I think he is guessing LCD can't demand as much as SXRD

I doubt people will actally stick to the MRP of $4,500... at least on the net. Competition will force prices down... either that or they won't sell well.

I don't believe the Cinema series are available on the net, which isn't to say they can't be gotten at discounted prices.

I would agree with Noah. The predecesor of the Cinema 800, the Cinema 500, had a very restrictive dealer network. I don't see this changing.

That's too bad... and surprising. I wonder how that affects their profit. Of course they would make more per unit, but their volume would also be less. They are priced out of my range... dissapointing since I have some ambient light in the room. That rules out the Sony. That only leaves the Sanyo PLV Z4 and the Panny PT-AE900u. I wonder if their is a noticable difference in contrast... hopefully people will post on head to heads.

That's too bad... and surprising ...They are priced out of my range... dissapointing since I have some ambient light in the room. That rules out the Sony. That only leaves the Sanyo PLV Z4 and the Panny PT-AE900u. I wonder if their is a noticable difference in contrast... hopefully people will post on head to heads.

krholmberg,

Rememeber that the $4500 price is for the Epson 800. It appears that
the Epson 550 will be competitive with the AE900 and the Z4 at $2500.

Also remember that Epson makes money everytime somebody buys a LCD projector (with the exception of Sony) since all LCD projector manufacturers other than Sony use Epson LCD panels.

Ok guys, we now know that the 550 will be in our price range and the 800 will not. So please try and focus the conversation on the 550.

Ok,

why does Epson's site say the contrast on the 550 is 3000:1 if they are using the new D5s?

Ok,

why does Epson's site say the contrast on the 550 is 3000:1 if they are using the new D5s?

I would imagine it's because they don't want to canibalize sales of their upscale 800 unit.

NickB

So the 550 will be less than the 800. Probably cheaper lenses and the "other processing" to increase CR (less agressive DI maybe?). But what I'm wondering about is basic video processing (de-interlacing/scaling). Anyone know what the epsons use? Also, on the Panny thread, the Sony and Z4 have 12-bit processing. 900 has 10-bit. I thiink I saw that the Epson has 10-bit. Is that correct?

Haven't heard much about the Hitachi TX200, but I see it is in the 800 area pricewise.

I wish we could get Darin or someone to do a good shootout w/technical info of all 6 of the new 720 LCDs. :)

Thanks, Greg

Yes, the Epson is 10 bit. Down from 12 bit on the TW500...

NilsP

How will the screendoor and brightness issues compare to the DLPs in the same price range(IF SP7210)?

the IF 7210 isn't even on the same continent price wise, much less the same range.

Better to compare it to the 7700 , mt700 or new mitsu.

Ive never owned a epson projector so how are the stated bulb lives?? Pretty close to the specs? Anybody want to chime in on that? jeff

Epson is pretty accurate on their stated specs. Cant say for sure on bulb life because many more things factor into bulb life but I am willing to bet people who have had epson pjs for years have got the stated hours out of their bulbs or close to the numbers stated.

I wouldn't expect them to get more hours than anyone else's pj's, unless they use unique lamps, or have a unique technology to accomplish that.

And if they did, I'm sure they'd have told us.

Or if they use a better cooling system which is a possibility.

I wouldn't expect them to get more hours than anyone else's pj's, unless they use unique lamps, or have a unique technology to accomplish that.

And if they did, I'm sure they'd have told us.
It's been mentioned in this very same thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6136170&highlight=ETORL#post6136170) that the PJ will be using a different lamp -- E-TORL, or "Epson twin Optimised Reflection Lamp".

The 800 has the same technical specs (5000:1 etc. etc.) as the Epson EMP-TW600, which sells for just €1890.- in Europe...

Can anyone explain this? Why this price difference?

Regards,
Ekkehart

Cine4Home
In factory outlets you pay a lot less for the same brand product. Varied pricing is not unusual. It might just be that the 800 will be sold through channels to customers that are not so concerned about the price and where the projector is a small part of the entire cost of a complete installation. That is my guess on this.

For me they are doing the right thing back in E. This product is not that different from the competition, it has plusses and minus. The old 500 clearly was in another class and so was the price.

I hope you are going to take tw600 for a spin. What is your test schedule?

The 800 has the same technical specs (5000:1 etc. etc.) as the Epson EMP-TW600, which sells for just €1890.- in Europe...

Can anyone explain this? Why this price difference?

Regards,
Ekkehart

They can play all the channel games they want, if they persist in this course they will just cost US retailers a lot of sales and make the european internet retailers wealthy. Really, this kind of practice is insulting to comsumers. If the pj is worth so much more as part of an installation, then it will stand on its own as part of that installation. Increasing volumes in a market will reduce costs to those middlemen. If it hurts the guy who's going to tell his rube customer that the epson is worth twice the money of the other 720p d5s becuase of some super duper formula x technology (despite the few actual differences) then he deserves to lost the sale and artifically inflating the US price to help him deserves to be thwarted by all means.

I'm an Epson TW100 owner (not TW100h), had it for years since it first came out. I like the pj, never have had any problems, now on second lamp after getting over 3200 hours on the first. Looking forward to some 550 reviews here as I think its time to upgrade and would prefer to stay with Epson.

The 800 has the same technical specs (5000:1 etc. etc.) as the Epson EMP-TW600, which sells for just €1890.- in Europe...

Can anyone explain this? Why this price difference?

Regards,
Ekkehart

Well, I'm not saying that it's worth the price difference, but the 600 doesn't have the ISF-calibrated picture modes of the 800 (it has the same ones as the 550). The 800 has an extra year warranty (3 vs. 2), and comes with a ceiling mount and an extra bulb. Oh, and a full year's warranty on the bulb vs. 90 days for the 550.

How will the screendoor and brightness issues compare to the DLPs in the same price range

From what I saw of the D5 projectors (Epson and Panasonic), screen door is a non-issue at normal viewing distance. No worse than any of the 720p DLPs I seen (and currently use).

Well, I'm not saying that it's worth the price difference, but the 600 doesn't have the ISF-calibrated picture modes of the 800 (it has the same ones as the 550). The 800 has an extra year warranty (3 vs. 2), and comes with a ceiling mount and an extra bulb.

Is the ISF calibration dependent on the bulb so if you change bulbs you'll have to get it recalibrated again?

I see extra value in extended warranty and the bulb but any real calibration should in my opninon be done at the location when you know
the screen type used
the sources used, not all are the same
the room

I expect tw600 to be pretty decent in calibration. The cinema filter is what matter to me. Perhaps tw600 gets a quick calibration and Pro 800 a more thorough one. It is good that I can save money and tweak it myself if I decide to do that.

Is the ISF calibration dependent on the bulb so if you change bulbs you'll have to get it recalibrated again?

Depends on how consistent this new lamp design is. I think a bigger issue would be as the original lamp ages, it would throw off the calibration that was based on the new lamp.

Mike,

"the 600 doesn't have the ISF-calibrated picture modes of the 800"

Given Epson's typically great color out of the box, I don't think think ISF cal adds value.

Any ideas as to whether or not the 550's rated CR of 3000:1 is with the iris wide open? Also if we use an ND filter to reduce the 550's lumen output down to 1000 lumens which contrast ratio would that improve, the ansi contrast or the off/on, or both?

" Any ideas as to whether or not the 550's rated CR of 3000:1 is with the iris wide open? "

Closed, I guess.

"Also if we use an ND filter to reduce the 550's lumen output down to 1000 lumens which contrast ratio would that improve, the ansi contrast or the off/on, or both?"

On/off stays the same because whites and blacks are reduced proportionately.

The best a filter can do is not degrade ANSI CR; a good one will not hurt it noticeably.

Any ideas as to whether or not the 550's rated CR of 3000:1 is with the iris wide open?

The CR would be with the DI activated which means that the CR would reflect the brightest white (iris fully open) versus the darkest black (iris closed to minimum).

Hi to all!

I read on official epson marketing brochure that the tw520 (aka 550) has 4000:1 CR.
I've seen the 520 and 600.....IMHO the differences are subtle....maybe at home and in a proper test environment differences will be more obvious, but at epson booth you could hardly tell which one was going on.

Happy news for Cinema 550 fans (and future D5 pj buyers.....), pixel structure at 70 cm was barely visible (or was my imagination?). On really close up (10cm away from a 70" screen), you can see some SDE, but I believe it cannot be an issue anymore for anyone (even the highest detractor of lcd tech.)

You'll find some other info on avforums, in the post "tw600 in action...."

It sounds so far like the difference between the 800
and the 550 will be much less than the differences between
the Cinema 500 and Cinema 200. I bought the 500 over the
200 when they first came out but my guess is that
with this pair I would go with the 550 because of the price.
I bet that many of the 800's will be sold as part of an installation
package. If this is true it is somewhat ironic that one of the
advertised differences is the ISF calibration out of the box.
Regards

I spoke with one of Epson's authorized outlets this morning: Advanced Home Environments in Pelham, NY. They gentleman said that he had no information of a shipping date yet, but will find out from Epson and let me know next week.

I am looking at the 550 and 800 closely. Being susceptible to DLP headaches, I am forced to stay with LCD or LCOS. I like the Epson's higher lumen output (on paper at least) and also seem to be hearing from others that Epson products tend to be better built. What I am keen on finding out is what the 800 offers over the 550 (over the extra bulb, mount and ISF). The mount, extra bulb and ISF calibration are probably worth less than an extra $1K, so what do we get for the additional $1k in price?
Epson's web page suggests that the 550 is for professional installation ... does that mean that it will come uncalibrated out of the box?

Hi to all!

I read on official epson marketing brochure that the tw520 (aka 550) has 4000:1 CR.


I have a brochure I got from Epson at CEDIA which indicates 3000:1 for the 550. The 520 may have a different rating.

Epson's web page suggests that the 550 is for professional installation ... does that mean that it will come uncalibrated out of the box?

Both the 800 and 550 are targeted toward professional installation, which means you likely won't see them for sale on the internet. The 800 has the ISF calibration and calibrated picture modes right out of the box, while the 550 does not. The 550 will not be any more "uncalibrated" than any other projector out of the box. According to Noah's post earlier, they usually are very accurately set up at the factory.

What I am keen on finding out is what the 800 offers over the 550 (over the extra bulb, mount and ISF). The mount, extra bulb and ISF calibration are probably worth less than an extra $1K, so what do we get for the additional $1k in price?


The 800 has an extra year of warranty, higher lumen rating and by the sounds of it a beter contrast rating which by the sounds of it may not even be all that apparent. I am sure those things add into the extra cost as well as the fact Epson knows some people will buy the 800 even if it turns out to not be worth the extra 2 grand.

If I upgrade my Epson 500 I plan to get either the 550 or the new Panny AE900. The 800 is too much for what will be a temp upgrade for me until 1080p 3 chip DLPs will be at decent price. I fear that spending 4500 or whatever the list is on the 800 wouldn't be wise as if I plan to sell my Epson 500 I am going to take a huge hit because of these cheap D5 pjs now out which have made my 500 resale value very low...I fully expect the same for anyone who buys the 800 and goes to sell it within a year.

Chances are I will prolly keep my Epson 500 or give it to my parents or something if I plan to get one of these new pjs sometime early next year.

rlindo -- I think that waiting for Epson to add the "C2Fine" (to the 550) in the middle of 2006(?), might be better. IMHO, the Z4 might be better alternative, than the AE900.

BTW, I always try to recycle my old PJs to our relatives.

"I think that waiting for Epson to add the "C2Fine" (to the 550) in the middle of 2006(?), "

I think it's very unlikely that they'll introduce new models only half way through the normal product cycle.

"I think that waiting for Epson to add the "C2Fine" (to the 550) in the middle of 2006(?), "

I think it's very unlikely that they'll introduce new models only half way through the normal product cycle.

And waiting a whole extra year for an upgrade is sacriligous. Heck a year is enough time for at least one maybe two projector upgrades. :)

Hi to all!

I read on official epson marketing brochure that the tw520 (aka 550) has 4000:1 CR.
I've seen the 520 and 600.....IMHO the differences are subtle....maybe at home and in a proper test environment differences will be more obvious, but at epson booth you could hardly tell which one was going on.

...."


After release, we will probably do a direct comparison between the 520 and 600 (including extensive measurements), and I am almost positive, that we will get very very surprising results ;-)

For some reason we have a certain feeling..... ;-)


Regards,
Ekkehart

Ekkehart,
My guess is that you suspect thye two models to be virtually identical.

If this is the case, are the 800 and the 600 different?

Regards

Appearently, the Epson Pro Cinema 800 belongs to the other forum, but the Epson TW600 is safe to discuss here :)

For some reason we have a certain feeling..... ;-)

Share your feeling....as the price difference here in italy (let me repeat, here in italy!) is about 200 euros (between the 520 and 600)....

yes please share your feelings!!!

I got a call from Advanced Home Environments today. Incredible service by Peter Sherman! He said he'd find out and call and he did!

Anyways, it appears that the only diff that Epson is stating betw the 800 and 550 is the extra warranty, extra 200 lumens and "40% more contrast" (5000 vs 3000) which in real world conditions should be meaningless. All else (apart from the ISF calib, mount and extra bulb) seems to be the same.

Shipping date is late October/early November.

"the only diff that Epson is stating "

Epson isn't stating much; their web site doesn't even have the spec's section yet.

The biggest unkown vis-a-vis relative quality is whether the video processing is much different.

Good point about the video processing. In my case that is largely irrelevant for I'll be feeding 720p directly from an iScan HD, but for many that could be important.

The question I have is what is different about the 800 as compared to the 550 that results in the higher lumen and contrast ratings. Perhaps the DI has a greater range between open and closed, or better optics, or a bit of both. While I agree that the price difference between the 800 and 550 seems extreme, the added brightness and contrast (assuming that the specs are realistic) may be welcome to many as would the mount and bulb, and for those individuals the 800 may also offer good value. As Noah also indicated, the video processing may also be better in the 800 which would be a significant benefit for those who will be relying on the projector to handle deinterlacing/scaling duties.

I would like to know if the DI can keep up with 72Hz refresh rates. Seems like 60Hz is as fast it can go (I might be confusing this for the AE-900) and the PJ doesn't appear to support 48Hz. It would be a pity if we cannot get judder-free motion from film sources with this PJ when connected to an external processor like one of DVDO's offerings.

"I would like to know if the DI can keep up with 72Hz refresh rates."

That brings up another important point - is the DI equally fast for the 550 and the 800, and how does it compare to the Pan 900's, which is claimed to work on a per-frame basis.

Personally, I suspect if it was even every 5 or 10 frames (a tenth or two of a second), I'd be happy with it.

George M.
Why do you need the DI to work at 72Hz. Lcd projectors are nto crts so they do not need a high refresh rate to avoid flicker.

George M.
Why do you need the DI to work at 72Hz. Lcd projectors are nto crts so they do not need a high refresh rate to avoid flicker.
For smooth pans it is best for the display device to output the video at a frame rate multiple of the source material's frame rate. So for 24fps material that would be at 24/48/72 and so on. At 48Hz, each frame is drawn twice, three times at 72Hz. At 60Hz, half of the frames are repeated more than the other -- (n/2) frames are drawn three times while (n+1)/2 frames are drawn twice. Note you will need a video processor like the iScan or an HTPC for no DVD player that I'm aware of can output these refresh rates.

I have a question for you guys - sort of on a different track than the current discussion. The projector central overview of this projector cites its high lumens as being appropriate for ambient light environments. As someone who absolutely abhores tweaking (I'm just going to go out on a limb and say I'm not good at it...no good at all...hate it...feel like I do more damage than good), I'm completely intrigued by the fact that most of the experienced people (madpoet, etc) agree that the Epson will likely both meet specs and look good out of the box. However, is what projector central says true? Are all of these added lumens going to mean that this projector is most appropriate for environments where light is a probelm and not be the best for a light controlled environment?

vigga,
One of the nice features of the Epson projectors is their adjustability with regard to light output. The Cinema 200 and 500 (and presumably the new 550 and 800) have multiple colour modes which vary in their light output, and the lamp has 11 power output levels. Combined you have a projector that has tremendous light output flexibility. If, and I doubt this, the image is still too bright, slap on a neutral density filter to bring the brightness down to where you are comfortable.

Then 48Hz operation should be asked for and not 72Hz.

Interesting and good to hear as this projector is at the TOP of my list for an upgrade (although it looks like securing one to look at in the Raleigh/Durham area will be very difficult). As I hinted at in my previous posting...neutral densite filters SCARE me...litereally, I quake in my britches... :) I don't understand them, I don't know how to use them, they make me lose sleep at night.

Then 48Hz operation should be asked for and not 72Hz.

Is it too much to ask for a 48Hz operation mode (through VGA or HDMI) in a sub 3k level projector? I asked the same question in the Mitsu HC3000 thread.

The concensus seems to be that the 550 and 800 will be virtually the same, but has anyone yet learned for sure what the inputs on the 800 will be. The ethernet jack on the Epson 500 was a standout feature in my opinion. Being able to control that projector from a home network led to some pretty neat options. Considering the price premium on the 800, they could even have put a wi-fi chip in there and it would mean one less cable to run. I wish more projector manufacturers would consider adding network ports. The cost of developing the software/firmware might cost them a bit up front, but, after that, network ports are dirt cheap on a cost per unit basis.

I'll include a picture (from avforums) that is supposedly the 600. There's no network jack, but the projector is not the black of the 800 either.
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/1438/1epsontw600rearbig2je.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

IMO If epson would have chosen to include an ethernet port (or even better wifi), probably we'll already know that......as surely this is a standout feature.

I'll include a picture (from avforums) that is supposedly the 600

Seen the 600 "live" after posting this pic.....yes, this is exactly the 600 connection panel, and IMHO there's few chance it will differ from the 800....hope to be wrong, though ;) !

when can we expect to see the first reviews of this machine(550)?

Both the 550 and 800 have the same inputs. Attached is a picture of the 800 inputs from their brochure, as well as a front view. It's the same as the picture posted previuosly. The side of the inputs picture is cut off, so you don't see the HDMI input to the right.

when can we expect the first review of this machine?

I've heard a few people mention the "restricted dealer network" and difficulty in finding Epson products on the Internet. I e-mailed a couple of the alliance members to ask if they planned to have it and one of them hadn't even heard of it. I'm really interested in the 550 but it seems like the Internet might not be a way to get it.

To any previous owners of Epson Cinema's : did you have any luck finding them on the internet? Or did you pick them up in stores?

You will not be able to purchase an Epson Cinema 550 or 800 via traditional internet channels. They are sold through B&M stores or custom installation companies.

What about something like B&H? They are a B&M store and carry a substantial epson product lineup.

On that score, many of the avs alliance members are b&m as well as internet, are you trying to say that none of them will have access to it either?

It's this kind of crap that makes me cut off the CEA folks when they talk about anti-gray-market legislation - you may want to restrict distribution of your product but don't expect the government to spend one cent helping you do so.

Epson actually has two different distribution channels. The first is for their "business class" projectors and these can be found at many internet retailers. Its their "home cinema" or "tw" line that is restricted to select B&M retailers and most cutom installers.

There is no comparison between Epson's business line and home cinema line and the products do not "cross over" between the two distribution channels as they do for Infocus etc (no rebadged models).

I got my Epson 500 over email with my sales guy who runs his business out of his house...so basically he is a custom installer.

I got a good price on it too.

Well, I got another e-mail back from an alliance member. The plot thickens....


"I received your info request for the Epson 550 projector. We are currently in the process of setting up a contract with Epson. We will be offering the 550 but we do not have pricing information yet. Please let me know if you have any other interests or if there is anything else I can provide."

This was from an alliance member who advertises at the top of the page. So maybe we're not out of luck after all.

You will not be able to purchase an Epson Cinema 550 or 800 via traditional internet channels. They are sold through B&M stores or custom installation companies.


But you could pick one up 'Overseas' via the internet and usually at a much better price....Although you may run into warranty issues if there is ever a problem.

But you could pick one up 'Overseas' via the internet and usually at a much better price....Although you may run into warranty issues if there is ever a problem.
LOL,
I just noticed you signature.
Isn't that the truth.
Most people that report VB are acually seeing FPN and report it as VB.

LOL,
I just noticed you signature.
Isn't that the truth.
Most people that report VB are acually seeing FPN and report it as VB.


So what do you think VB is?

VB is uniform vertical bands that are about (on a 100" screen) 1 1/2 to 2" wide. The bands are lighter in color than the band next to it. FNP is vertical random streaking, almost looks like a hard rain would look like as it rums down a window. VB is more annoying to me since it is uniform. But both bother the heck out of me. That's how I would describe it to someone that has never seen it.

I wonder if the stated msrp of $2495 is set in stone because my local Epson dealer called his district sales manager on my behalf and was told that the 550 will be shipping in late Oct./early Nov. and that the final pricing had yet to be finalized. He was told a minimum of $2500 and a maximum of $3000.

Moe

I wonder if the stated msrp of $2495 is set in stone

I'd be surprised if they increased it after sending out numerous press releases and other printed material with that price, but stranger things have happened. Even the industry weekly magazine, TWICE, has an article with it listed at $2495.

So here's a question - if the price remains as stated, and the Epson continues to come with a 2 year warranty, and the price of an extra year on the Panasonic is about $100 (I believe a two year warranty is pretty much essential on cutting edge devices like this with newly designed, fast moving parts) then given an essentially equal price, which would you buy, the Epson or the Panasonic?

1) is there any spec in which the panasonic is supposed to be superior to the epson (taking into account each of the manufacturers regular fudge factors)
2) How have Epson and Panasonic performed when called upon to fulfill their warrantees? (on a scale of 1-10 with Sanyo being 1 and Infocus - at least historically - being 10)
3) How do they compare in projection quality for the rare individual who has seen both?

And, as long as I'm at it, does anyone think that TI is going to approve a sharp drop in 720p dc3 to the $2,500 range by CES?

1) Contrast, if you can believe the Panny specs and noise. (the Panny is the quietest projector I've heard yet).

2) Not sure about Panny, but my experience with Epson has been very good. Didn't know that Sanyo was that bad.

3) Hard to say since they were in completely different setups with different source material. Both were in dark rooms though. Looked pretty equal in separate showings, but I've seen the Panny a lot more than the Epson. I'm hoping to compare them both in the same conditions eventually, but we'll have to wait a month for the 550.

As for the DC3 question, your crystal ball is a good as mine. :D

And, as long as I'm at it, does anyone think that TI is going to approve a sharp drop in 720p dc3 to the $2,500 range by CES?

Don't know about this approval stuff ... TI controlling final prices of projectors would possibly not be legal. They are more likely to exercise some control using the dmd prices.

jsm88,

if the past is any indication then the Epson will most likely be a lot more accurate in every way possible (greyscale, CR, lumen output, etc) compared to the Panny. With past Epson pjs you could take them out of the box and your image was almost dead on in terms of greyscale.

Don't know about this approval stuff ... TI controlling final prices of projectors would possibly not be legal. They are more likely to exercise some control using the dmd prices.

thanks for the other replies

TI can use a number of ways of controlling the final selling price of pjs using their various chips. The most common way to throttling supplies, limiting those to vendors who move outside of their "recommeded marketing structure". Intel has been doing this for years, with less power over their customers then TI has in this case. If you are planning to be a price leader in a particular DLP segment you are damn sure planning on making up for the narrow margins with volume. TI has the ability to constrict your supply to the extent that not only will your strategy not succeed, but you will likely lose money. The upshot is, no major manufacturer is going outside of TIs guidelines, and any VP who suggests it will be getting a swirly in the executive washroom.

But this is all OT - What I'm really asking is, why would anyone buy any of the other D5 machines if the effective price difference is less then 10%, Of course, the answer is, we'll see once we can compare them head to head.

"why would anyone buy any of the other D5 machines if the effective price difference is less then 10%, "

Because it will be much harder to find and buy. As of now, it must be gotten through a dealer, of which there aren't that many.
\
Compare that with just clicking and adding to your cart at an online dealer.

I really don't get why Epson shoot themselves in the foot this way.

The 550 page has a link to look for Epson dealers and after plugging in my zip code, it came up with two dealers. I called both of them and didn't have a satisfying experience. The first one was an answering machine with a message that didn't sound too professional. The second dealer was completely clueless about the 550. At first he claimed he had it and then after checking the computer told me was discontinued. Epson really needs to get online dealers to sell their HT projectors.

same here, and I had to fake my zip. If you put a dc zip in they return nothing, despite the fact that they have dealers in the immediate surrounding suburbs - I've never seen a zip look-up that was quite so constipated in it's outlook. One gets the impression that Epson really doesn't want to sell any of these - which leads back to my question about their CS - does anyone have any warrenty/repair experience with these guys? I've seen the threads with horror stories about Sanyo and generally positive comments about panny service (though with perhaps more requiring service) I have not seen any comments about service experience with epson - and their lack of sales support has me concerned. :confused:

I had a dead pixel on a Cinema 500 which I purchased about 1-1/2 years ago. I called my dealer and had a replacement through Epson Canada the next day. Upon receipt of the replacement projector I returned the original unit so that I was never without a projector. Service does not get any better than that.

thanks for the other replies
TI can use a number of ways of controlling the final selling price of pjs using their various chips.


Why would TI want to control the prices ? If they want to sell more they should be happy some manufacturers can sell the pjs for less. If they think they are like a monopoly and charge whatever they want, with D5, they will lose a lot of market share.

UK MSRP: TW520 £1199, TW600 £1299. Good news for us folks in Europe. :) (I still can't believe these prices compared to when the TW500 was released...)

We really need a review of these units NOW!

NilsP

the TW600 is only 100 pounds more? That seems odd.

UK MSRP: TW520 £1199, TW600 £1299. Good news for us folks in Europe. :) (I still can't believe these prices compared to when the TW500 was released...)

We really need a review of these units NOW!

NilsP

That's only $2,150 msrp, and no messy foreign language menus to worry about. some UK retailer is going to be very happy. Ok we have the Sanyo, Panasonic, Hitachi, and Epson just on the d5 lcd front and all priced within spitting distance - whoever can test these head to head first is doing a real service to the community.

the TW600 is only 100 pounds more? That seems odd.

One has to wonder what the real differences will be between the 550 and the 800 in the US. I'm thinking Optoma H79 and H78DC3 here.

I'm being told that the 550 won't be available until the end of October, so we may have to wait until then for a U.S. model D5 shootout. :D

well, at the prices their talking for the us model, I don't really care if its a us model shootout - I'd prefer to see this 520 tested, as it shouldn't be too hard to have it sent from england.

oh, and doing some searches on the 520 model name seems to confirm the $2150 msrp, it is listed on a number of different sites.

In Sweden and Norway the EMP-TW600 price seems to end up around $2000, and that is including 25% tax!!!!

I seriously doubt the US price will be higher!

There is a HiFi show at Oslo Plaza this weekend... Anyone local know if the 600 will be on display? (Or the 900 or the Z4...?)

(A web retailers "in stock" date for the 600 is 16th of October... 21st for the 900 at $300 more.)

NilsP

Crazy marketing. The Panasonic 900 costs more than the Epson 600 in Norway.

So lemme see if this is correct...

the 520 in Europe and the 550 here will be around the same price when one takes into exchange. The 600 in Europe and 800 here are about 2 grand diff and the onyl thing the 800 seems to have is the extra lamp, ceiling mount. ISF calibration stuff and possible extra year warranty. That sound about right to you guys? If so, Epson USA is smoking something...

And there'll still be unsuspecting customers who will buy the 800 at boutique shops.

And there'll still be unsuspecting customers who will buy the 800 at boutique shops.

And THIS is why, despite the good work of the many boutique owners/salesmen who participate in forums, that I warn HT novices away from boutiques like the plague. I would agree that the boutique/integrators services are worth every penny for some people, but to hide those costs in artificially priced hardware like this is simply dishonest and intentionally deceptive of the customer. Wouldn't it be great if Epson could just rely on the quality of their product and their dealer relations to be featured by high-end shops rather then creating a "product" that disguises what a consumer is paying for the services of a boutique.

On the plus side, it looks like the msrp we'll be able to get the 800 for using european retailers is going to rival the ae900

Has anybody actually done a direct comparison between the 800 and 550? Nope, I didn't think so. What if the 800 offers noticeably better contrast? How about if it offers better optics and video processing? Would these benefits make the price increase worthwhile especially when you factor in the extra lamp, ceiling mount, and year of warranty and then consider that there is likely to be significantly higher markup with the 800 than with the 550 which could make the difference in street price significantly smaller than the MSRP would suggest? I have know idea what the performance differences will turn out to be, I am simply suggesting that to make conclusions about the relative value of two projectors when they are not even available yet is a little er.... premature. If the 800 turns out to be the same projector as the European 600, then I would agree that the Epson US is pricing the 800 too high relative to the 550 at which point purchasing the 600 from Europe may be a good option provided that the warranty is not given up in the process.

Has anybody actually done a direct comparison between the 800 and 550? Nope, I didn't think so. What if the 800 offers noticeably better contrast? How about if it offers better optics and video processing? Would these benefits make the price increase worthwhile especially when you factor in the extra lamp, ceiling mount, and year of warranty and then consider that there is likely to be significantly higher markup with the 800 than with the 550 which could make the difference in street price significantly smaller than the MSRP would suggest? I have know idea what the performance differences will turn out to be, I am simply suggesting that to make conclusions about the relative value of two projectors when they are not even available yet is a bit silly. If the 800 turns out to be the same projector as the European 600, then I would agree that the Epson US is pricing the 800 too high relative to the 550 at which point purchasing the 600 from Europe may be a good option provided that the warranty is not given up in the process.

Hear! Hear! I agree with you. We may be a bit hasty in making conclusions about the 800 unseen!

Just noticed that the newest issue of consumer reports has an article on front projection, and rates the epson projector at the top of the models reviewed.

Aside from that, it is nice to see a FP article like this showing up in mainstream publication, and also with an emphasis on the more economical models. Home theater mags tend to feature the higher end, "serious" models, so leave out a lot of us who prefer the <$3000 range.

Which models did consumer reports rate? I have never trused Consumer Reports on audio or television but it is interesting that they did rate projectors for the first time.

TW600 test/preview: http://www.avbuzz.com/audio-video/200510/ckl-tw600/index.htm

NilsP

All in all I would say that that is a disappointing showing by the tw600. I would have expected for more light output, lower fan noise, and a faster dynamic iris response. Unless there was a problem with the review unit it looks like I will not be replacing my Epson Cinema 500 with the upcoming Cinema 550 or 800 (said to be the same projector as the tw600). I will try to get my hands on a Panasonic AE900 for testing at my home and for a direct comparison to my Cinema 500. The AE900 should have higher light output, less fan noise, and a faster dynamic iris response than the tw600 in the referenced review.

ScottB,

If you could do a comparison of your 500 with the AE900, that would be GREAT for many! :)

A buddy of mine owns a local hi-end AV store and he sells the Panny 900 as one of their low-end projectors. It should be no problem borrowing a unit for a couple of days. I don't have any time this weekend, but I will see if he has the 900 in stock and if he does, will try to get one for the following weekend. I will be sure to post a detailed comparison.

Yeah, the iris seemed to be almost too slow, as in not working correctly... But hey, 1:1 pixel mapping, and syncing to 48/72Hz is nice. (Noisy, yes, but I'll be using it in Theatre Black mode, so it should be ok.) Very little VB and scan line artifacts are also good.

But to upgrade from TW500 to this, I'd agree, is not worth it.

We really need that AE900, Z4, TW600 shootout!

NilsP

I will be getting a 550 when they're available and posting a comparison to the AE900. Having seen both the 800 and 550 in the same room, I would say that the 800 did look slightly better, but I would need more controlled conditions to properly evaluate the differences.

Has anybody actually done a direct comparison between the 800 and 550? Nope, I didn't think so. What if the 800 offers noticeably better contrast? How about if it offers better optics and video processing? Would these benefits make the price increase worthwhile especially when you factor in the extra lamp, ceiling mount, and year of warranty and then consider that there is likely to be significantly higher markup with the 800 than with the 550 which could make the difference in street price significantly smaller than the MSRP would suggest? I have know idea what the performance differences will turn out to be, I am simply suggesting that to make conclusions about the relative value of two projectors when they are not even available yet is a little er.... premature. If the 800 turns out to be the same projector as the European 600, then I would agree that the Epson US is pricing the 800 too high relative to the 550 at which point purchasing the 600 from Europe may be a good option provided that the warranty is not given up in the process.

If the 800 and 600 turn out to perform the same (and I am guessing they will be the same pj but the 800 has the extra lamp and other stuff mentioned) and the prices are accurate then I'd just get 2 600s for a bit more than a single 800. hehe

TW600 test/preview: http://www.avbuzz.com/audio-video/200510/ckl-tw600/index.htm

NilsP

Ugh..dont like the iris and how it takes so much time to get to its darkest black level.

What is up with the DI off contrast rating? Seems very low.

I dont like the light leakage deal...bad case design if there is light leakage especially in the front.

Oh and that unit they had looks like it has some bad convergence with the red. man...

After reading that I'd hope that if TW600s are going to be just like that then the 800 is much better/different and that is what justifies the price diff.

I of course will wait for units to hit the street and then see what the feedback is. All I know is that specific tw600 they tested wasnt impressive.

TW600 test/preview: http://www.avbuzz.com/audio-video/200510/ckl-tw600/index.htm


One surprising & disappointing fact is that D5 does not seem to be better than D4 in contrast.

The Cinema 500 had a contrast of ~1000:1 without a DI as reported in numerous reviews. The DI off contrast ratio of the tw600 appears to be a step backwards. Maybe Epson cut corners on the optics to be able to offer the tw600 at lower prices, and this is compromising the contrast. In any event, I am not impressed.

Guess I'm scratching this PJ off my list. Now it's either the AE900 or the Z4 for me. CKL, thanks for the report and I'm very happy to see you took the extra effort to test for 48/72Hz sync. I hope you will be doing the same with the Z4 and the AE900 (if you plan to test this one, too).

Although TW600 can get 1:1 mapping at 48/72Hz, the macro-tearing is still unacceptable. Just start testing Z4 tonight. It displays abnormal picture at 48Hz. 1:1 mapping is OK at 72Hz but there are stutters. So both TW600 and Z4 can only be used at 50/60Hz.

CKL, any luck in getting a Panasonic AE900 for review?

Doesn't it seem likely that the TW600 CKL got is a lemon. If not then it is very
disappointing.

Brian,
I hope you are right. Based upon my very positive experience with the Cinema 500, I was really wanting to like the Cinema 550 and especially the Cinema 800. In comparison to the tw600 tested, the Cinema 500 has greater light output and higher contrast if the DI of the tw600 is off. It also is quite quiet and has no light spill. The tw600 that was reviewed certainly does not appear to be an upgrade over my Cinema 500. Bummer!!!

Guys...wait until the Epson pjs actually hit us here in North America before scratching them off your list. As I stated earlier, this 600 tested doesnt seem all that impressive but who knows if it was just a bum unit or if our versions here in North America will be better. Some who saw the Epsons at CEDIA said they looked good so I am willing to wait and see what's up before I form some conclusion on it.

Guys...wait until the Epson pjs actually hit us here in North America before scratching them off your list. As I stated earlier, this 600 tested doesnt seem all that impressive but who knows if it was just a bum unit or if our versions here in North America will be better. Some who saw the Epsons at CEDIA said they looked good so I am willing to wait and see what's up before I form some conclusion on it.


What surprises me is that Epson used a simple motor to operate the Iris... A fast DI ist not possible with that mechanism. The Panasonic solution works without motor (more like the header in a hardrive) and therefore is much much faster. The Sanyo Z4 solution and the Sony HS50/60 solution also use faster methods...


Regards,
Ekkehart

Ekkehart, any news when you will be getting the Panasonic AE900 for review?

Ekkehart, any news when you will be getting the Panasonic AE900 for review?


Well, it should happen any day now... We will review the machines in the order we receive them...

I wouldnt count out the TX200 either. It seems to have a fast DI mechanisim.. we will see...


Regards,
Ekkehart

Yeah the slow speed of this DI seems odd. Wonder why they didnt implement it better.

I have yet to see a PJ that uses a DI so I have no clue about what the Epson 600's slow DI does to the image in real world use.

Although TW600 can get 1:1 mapping at 48/72Hz, the macro-tearing is still unacceptable. Just start testing Z4 tonight. It displays abnormal picture at 48Hz. 1:1 mapping is OK at 72Hz but there are stutters. So both TW600 and Z4 can only be used at 50/60Hz.

CKL,

Thank you for your fine technical review on the TW600 and your initial analysis on the Z4. We hope the new Epson panels fare better in the Z4. Looking forward to your impression of this unit's improvement to the previous D4 generation.

I really don't want to be forced to go for a H78. I just sold my AE700 and looking for a step up.

Slow DI aside, I watched the TW600 on a white screen today for a while, and I was impressed. Didn't notice any delay or other artifacts from the DI. (If it was running..)
The guy said it was a prototype, two months old, live ones to hit shops in 2-3 weeks.

SDE not very noticeable, until 3-4 feet away, approx 80-90" screen. Saw no VB or FPN. (Showed a foggy clips from the Andes, smooth and clean.)

Very impressed. Some ambient light, hard to tell black level.

Did see some macroblocking, but it certainly was not the panels, but the source. Source was a HTPC, pixel perfect it seemed. Showed 720p version of Fifth Element. Mmmmm....

Must check it out again when it is released.

NilsP

PS
Also saw the same clip, now in 1080p version of the PD1080 DLP. 113" screen. Goodness. Future is looking GOOD!

The slow DI response only occurs at full screen 0-10IRE levels. In the movies, rare scenes will stay in the such low level for a period of time. The scenes keep changing where you may not sense the slow DI response. On the other hand, there is not enough time for the DI to lower the black level. That's why I said its black level and contrast ratio are not impressive.

Regarding the noise level, it depends on the quality of sources. TW600 still shows clean pictures for good quality DVDs. But it doesn't de-noise poor DVDs as good as Sony HS60, especially the mid to low level. It seems that TW600 exhibit bright scenes in better quality.

Just in case this was not posted before here is the link to the user manual for the tw520 and 600 (550 and 800).
ftp://ftp.epson-europe.com/pub/download/259/epson25868eu.pdf

Paul

OK guys, with the reviews and shipping of the Panasonic and emminent release of the Z4, interest in this forum has certainly waned (there hasn't been a posting here in over a week!). As one who is still very interested in this product (despite what appeared to be a fairly negative review from overseas of the TW600), I'm still eager to see what happens when the 550 starts to be reviewed state side. I'm deathly afraid of tweaking. I find it difficult to use Avia, Smart III etc. Gamma confuses me and I know I did much more harm than good to my Z2. Given how good Epson projectors have been in the past out of the box, I continue to be very interested in this unit despite the buzz currently surrounding the Sanyo and Panasonic products. A thread that has since dissapeared from a couple of weeks ago had many of our more respected posters (madpoet for one) citing this as likely the projector to beat this year.

That said, some information I've received: I received an email from Art of Projector Reviews this morning who tells me that a review unit should be to them in the next two weeks with a review following shortly. Epson confirmed for me over the phone yesterday that the unit has been officially released and they will be filling orders this week. Additionally, a popular AVS Forum sponsor let me know that Epson reps were in last week and that they expect the first shipment of 550's and 800 (although only for local installs) within the month.
Cheers!

Thanks for the update. I won't go for a new projector before more reviews are out on this one. It is this (TW600) or AE900 for me. Wish they would hurry!

NilsP

"OK guys, with the reviews and shipping of the Panasonic and emminent release of the Z4, interest in this forum has certainly waned"

I, and I'm sure many others, are still very interested (hoping CKL's unit was defective), but what are we to do when there's no more info forthcoming.

Thanks for the update.

Sorry if this has been asked, but is the TW600 a non-U.S. market only projector?

According to the US Epson website, the two new additions to the cinema series line are the PowerLite Cinema 550 and PowerLite Pro Cinema 800. The TW600 is listed only on the European site.

This month Consumer reports did a full review on front projections...for the first time I might add! They ranked epson as #1.... (but didnt even test optoma and other leading brands).... just an fyi all...

Yeah... it was a fairly ridiculous review ;)

I have read somewhere that it will be out in North America around now, yet nobody has said anything about it for quite a while.

Is it in the US yet and if not does anybody know when it will be?

Paul

I think all we can tell you is that Epson says yes - the projector is out. The projector has been officially released and orders to dealers are supposed to be being met. There are a limited number of internet retailers for the 500 who are not listing the 550 yet. A popular AVS Forum Sponsor is supposed to be receiving shipments within the month and I've been told to expect an email as soon as a date has been set. To the best of my knowledge, though, no one has actually seen the unit outside of CEDIA--
v

I phoned Epson Pre-Sales support (800) 463-7766, and they said that the 550 was not released yet in the US, but they were expecting it to be any day now. I know this is contrary to the latest report I read, but she confirmed it with her supervisor and also said that they had no other info on it other than what was on the website.

Also for us poor saps up here in Canada, she said that there will be at least a 4-6 week delay for this unit to be released in Canada once its available in the US. In fact she said not to expect anything till the new year. :(

I cant wait that long to see if it is going to be better than the AE900 :mad:

Paul

I guess that means that Epson is handing out conflicting information. I have spoken twice to Epson Pre-sale support-both times to a supervisor (once about 10 days ago and again today) and was assured, both times, that the unit is, in fact, officially released in the US. So much for the Pre-sale "Information" line.
I think the best way to keep track of this is to talk with the dealers as Epson doesn't really seem to be in agreement with what's going on. A large AVS Forum Sponsor (don't want to break any rules) will be carrying this projector. Being that there are, as of right now, no dealers for this Epson HT projectors in the entire state of NC, I'm basically at the mercy of the few internet dealers that will be getting this projector - so until they get in on the ground, it really doesn't matter what Epson says about official releases does it ? :)
The AVS Forum Sponsor is supposed to be emailing me as soon as they get information on the projector getting physically shipped to them...once I get that info I'll pass it along.

There's really no conflict of information there. If they haven't been shipped to dealers yet (which they apparently haven't), then they haven't been "released" yet. ;)

Also for us poor saps up here in Canada, she said that there will be at least a 4-6 week delay for this unit to be released in Canada once its available in the US. In fact she said not to expect anything till the new year. :(

I cant wait that long to see if it is going to be better than the AE900 :mad:

Paul

Interesting news about the Canadian delay. If you go back and look at some of
the earliest threads on the Epson 500 you will notice a surprising number of
Canadians in the early ownership group.

Regards

Final pricing on the Cinema 550 and Pro Cinema 800 was only sent to dealers mid last week. In fact as of late Thursday (10/27), the Epson order site (where dealers placed their orders) still did not have the 550 up so dealers could order.

This was fixed on friday, as my local "big online" dealer, placed their order, as soon as that was fixed. I believe that product may be arriving as soon as late this week or early next.

I am also expecting a review unit from the first batch of production units, so I am hoping also for end of this week, in which case, I should have a prelim review up by end of the weekend. -art

Should be interesting. I hope to at least get a brief chance to put it side by side against the Panasonic.

Final pricing on the Cinema 550 and Pro Cinema 800 was only sent to dealers mid last week. In fact as of late Thursday (10/27), the Epson order site (where dealers placed their orders) still did not have the 550 up so dealers could order.

This was fixed on friday, as my local "big online" dealer, placed their order, as soon as that was fixed. I believe that product may be arriving as soon as late this week or early next.

I am also expecting a review unit from the first batch of production units, so I am hoping also for end of this week, in which case, I should have a prelim review up by end of the weekend. -art

Should be interesting. I hope to at least get a brief chance to put it side by side against the Panasonic.

Many of us can't wait to read your review on the Epson 550, so thanks in advance.

Did you ever get the Sanyo Z4 in for review?

Shelly

All-
I've kept up with thread the best that I could, so I apologize if this has been posted before (I haven't seen it), but while messing around this morning I found a collection of press stuff for this years Epson Home Theater Projectors. Some high res pictures as well as a pdf describing this years offerings. No new information here, but still interesting to see the product information--
http://epsonpresskit.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=pageF&cat=61

From what I have been able to find out about the 550, I am eagerly awaiting review and shootouts with the Sanyo Z4 and Panasonic AE900.

I was leaning towards the Optoma H78 or H79, but from what I've read it sounds like the PQ differential does not validate the $$ differential.

I'm hoping the 550 will really show me something that finally settles my decision for my first projector. I'm not really counting my current InFocus LitePro 580.

My Z4 review unit is supposed to arrive today, and a 550 hopefully next week.

I have watched the 900u side by side from the same sources as an Optoma H78dc3 and while the differences aren't as big as with the older LCD's I still would go with the H78 over the 900u. The black levels are much better, etc... Whether you can rationalize the extra $1500+, you will have to decide, but as I see it the new LCD's are definitely the equal to the DLP projectors sporting the HD2+ chip, but "AI" and Iris enhanced LCD products still can't match the Darkchip3 when it comes to faithfully reproducing shadow areas and dark scenes. -art

Your source at Epson seems to be questionable. The 550 claims a 3000:1 contrast ratio vs. 5000 on the 800, I believe. Epson also says that the 800's are ISF calibrated (I assume as a group, not individually.

The 800 is also rated 200 lumens brighter and 2 db quieter. They use the same lamp, but the prelim info I have doesn't indicate if the LCD panels are the same.

BTW besides the free lamp and mount, the 800 comes with a 3 year warranty vs 2 years.

Hope that helps. Once the units are out there, we'll figure out what differences are real, and which are "smoke and mirrors".... -art

Shelly, I was told that my Z4 review unit should arrive today, tomorrow latest. I'll be working with it all weekend and hope to have a prelim review up late Sunday nite, maybe Monday. -art

The 800 is also rated 200 lumens brighter and 2 db quieter. They use the same lamp, but the prelim info I have doesn't indicate if the LCD panels are the same.

I was told by the product manager that they both use the same (D5) panels and iris. The 800 also has ISF certified calibrated modes, which the 550 doesn't.

For those interested, there's quite a bit of information posted on the earlier pages of this thread.

OK, I'm done waiting for reviews. Ordered the TW600 today, should be here in a couple of days. Can't wait. Will return and report.

NilsP

Well, not that this means much really significant, but sometime in the last several days Epson has removed the prices from the 550 and 800 from the US website. Again...does this really mean anything? Who knows...but I'm beginning to feel that this projector might not show itself before Christmas, in the US anyway.

Got the TW600 today. Setting it up now, had some trouble getting picture using Component. Fixed.

Makes more noise than anticipated, but no issue when movie is playing. Back to testing.

NilsP

Got the TW600 today. ... Back to testing. NilsP

Hi,

I was at a show in Germany where among others they showed the Panasonic 900, Sanyo Z4 and the Epson TW600, although only a pre-production unit.

IMO they all looked pretty equal. In very, very short my personal impressions are: The 900 is for those who don't like SDE, the Z4 for those looking for sharpness and contrast and the Epson for those who need a versatile projector for big screens and white rooms (like mine).
Of course there was no time for tweaking, so all of them might be tweakable in the one or other direction.
Deducted from the menu settings all projectors where OTB, all settings where at 0 (at least for brightness, contrast aso.).

What I liked especially about the Epson was the range of different light outputs, although in the brightest mode of course colors where off. But since the Espon was pre-production and imo not really good set up this might be tweakable.

So I like to ask are the colors in the brightest mode tweakable to a degree that they are acceptable?

Greetings All,

As a heads up, I have just received a Cinema 550 from Epson this morning. I will be working on the review over the weekend, and into next week. I do hope to have a preliminary review up late Sunday night, with more added during the week.

At the moment I also have a Panasonic PT-AE900u in house for comparison, and I will be able to post some side by side shots of the Epson and the Panasonic, for comparison.

Also over the next two weeks I will be posting commentary comparing the Sanyo Z4 to the Panasonic AE900u (almost finished), and a second (later) comparison of either the Sanyo or the Panasonic, compared to the Epson Cinema 550, or all three.

Hope you all find the review and comparisons helpful. Thanks -art

Greetings All,

As a heads up, I have just received a Cinema 550 from Epson this morning. I will be working on the review over the weekend, and into next week. I do hope to have a preliminary review up late Sunday night, with more added during the week.

At the moment I also have a Panasonic PT-AE900u in house for comparison, and I will be able to post some side by side shots of the Epson and the Panasonic, for comparison.

Also over the next two weeks I will be posting commentary comparing the Sanyo Z4 to the Panasonic AE900u (almost finished), and a second (later) comparison of either the Sanyo or the Panasonic, compared to the Epson Cinema 550, or all three.

Hope you all find the review and comparisons helpful. Thanks -art

awesome, look forward to reading your thoughts:)

Got the TW600 today. Setting it up now, had some trouble getting picture using Component. Fixed.

Makes more noise than anticipated, but no issue when movie is playing. Back to testing.

NilsP

what's your impressions thus far? :)

NilsP
Are you using Natural instead of Theater dark1 or was it black1. In the latter mode the projector is quiet. In the former the projector is louder.

So far I am using 576p over component from an old dvd, a Nintaus. I have engaged the auto-iris and changed gamma to 2.3 instead of 2.2. I use the 6500K setting and the colors are very warm. They might be too much so but I liked the picture.

I have not done brightness/contrast. What can we do with the rgb bias (is that same as off set) and gain?

I have had trouble with the s-video input that I need for one part of my setup. S-video connectors are often trouble. I will get a new connector to see if the connector is bent somehow.

Ohlson,

in the exitement over finally getting a projector, I haven't done much tweaking. I just set it to Theatre Black1 and demoed various material. As you say, it is quieter in theatre black, probably meaning it would be the equivalent of quiet mode, ie. the lamp will last longer in this mode.

Using the same 576p over component from a cheap Eltax 555 DVD recorder. It doesn't produce blacker-than-black, and the de-interlacing is far from perfect. But hey, beats 576i hands down.

All pixels accounted for, no SDE from my seating distance (1.4x), and absolutely and utterly NO VB. :) Happy I am. Black level isn't as black as I had hoped, but again, haven't done much tweaking. (White standard screen, 100% light controlled room. That is, my wife didn't let me paint all the walls black... Pictures will follow later.)

The projector is making more noise than I would have liked. It is just the sound of air being sucked though the projector, and I don't notice it while watching movies, but it is not 100% quiet. (Not that I expected 100%...)

Was concerned when I hooked up the PC and got at least 10% overscan on all sides.. (10m/30 feet DVI cable PC->DVI->DVI cable->DVI-HDMI plug->Projector.) But a quick run through the menus and POW, 1:1 perfect pixel mapping. Stunning picture from the PC. Ran a few testfiles, very, very nice. But certain downloads doesn't quite look as good at 90" than at 17".. ;) Definitely source of program DVD or HD before compression makes a big difference.

S-Video works OK, but is no match for component. Hope you'll ba able to ditch it soon! My DVD recorder has SCART in, so it converts RGB to component. Satellite channels looks great. Satellite decoder also has SCART in, S-VHS/DV player is input to it. Works fine.

Played the X-BOX title Amped 2 at 720p (US version). Holy moly! That is gorgeous gaming! Getting really excited for X-BOX 360 and PS3.

I do need to get a HDMI switching receiver, since HDMI sources will soon multiply, but after reading reviews of the current offering, I've decided to wait a year. (Lower prices, HDMI 1.3) Only have one source right now, so no stress.

Hope to get a HD satellite feed before Christmas, can't wait.

As excited as I am finally getting a projector, I'm also slightly "unfulfilled"... Two-three years of reading reviews, following the industry really closely, debating this and that, pages up and pages down, is over. I'm there. Got it. Happy. But a weird feeling. I guess it is partly that I know I won't be getting the next generation stuff next year, but hey: You can't sit on the fence forever! Now I'm set until 1080p comes down in price, have a huge stack of movies I haven't watched waiting for this. Yess! Time to get down in the basement again. Batman Begins last night, many more to come. Lovin' it.

NilsP

NilsP
I am sure you got tw600 at a very good price. In Sweden the introduction price was very nice. I spent a little less now to be able to justify jumping on 1080p a littel earlier sometime in the future.

I think getting a HD satellite feed will get the fulfillment rating up. I am dead set on seeing WC in football in Germany next year in glorious hdtv.

Question
1 How much of a step up would you estimate that 720p hdmi with a good dvd player is over old dvd 576p component.

nilsp

how about posting some screenshots?.....

Ohlson, yep good price, and an included DVD recorder w/160GB HD. :) And same as you, this is while waiting for 1080p. Fall 07??

Yup, WC06 in HD for sure. Can't wait. Expect to convert a lot of friends to HD those couple of weeks. :)

Good question. I've been looking at the Denon 1920, not that expensive, and good specs. But I've decided to wait it out a little bit. Just tested using my PC playing DVD's, very promising. (1280x720 native.) Will test more soon.

Screenshot, schreemshot... Sure will, but not today. Must spend some quality time with it before we start talking pictures. ;)

NilsP

So you notice a god bit of improvment feeding digital 720p to the projector from a dvd source?

Greetings, As I posted yesterday morning, I did receive aCinema 550 for review, from Epson yesterday morning. I got to "play" with it briefly, and was somewhat dissapointed by one thing, and wanted to know if those of you with the (I assume "identical") TW600, have found the same.

I want to note first that the 550 I received looks to possibly be pre-production. Complete with photocopied manual, So it may not be the latest rev.

That said, those of you which have them, I found the image to be notably soft - less sharp - than the Panny AE900u. This was very evident with 480i and 480p source, but less so on Hi-Def. Still even Hi-def was visibly less sharp viewing a 98" diagonal image at 10 feet (both projectors side by side. While the difference was not great, it greatly concerns me.

I have a call into Epson product management, to discuss and to get a different unit if they feel the unit is not performing well, but I am hoping that some of you who have, may have seen the Epson compared to the Panny (or Z4) and seen different results.

thanks -art

PS, other than that, looks pretty good, no VB I could see at 3 feet from that screen, and enough image/color etc. controls to keep the fussiest tweaker happy for years.

One real highlight - for those of you with high ceilings, or those who need their screen placed high and the projector down low, the range on the lens shift is way beyond the Z4, which in turn. is more versatile than the Panny. On that 98" screen (I didn't actually measure), but it looked like the lens of the projector could be 3-4 feet above the screen top.

NilsP,

I perfectly understand the unfulfillment sensation: I got a SONY HS10 2 yrs ago and while I am still enjoying it I cannot stop thinking that it is very far from the best picture attainable and that there are better projectors today and way better projectors tomorrow.

Should I upgrade when the next better projector is available or wait for a quantum leap?

My recommendation: ENJOY THE PROJECTOR!!!!! The HS10 is much worse than the TW600 in almost all areas (except for resolution) and I still enjoy it.

As many here, I want to get the definitive projector, and I wouldn't mind paying 30KEUR for it, however the projector I want is not available yet (1080p, >1500 lumens, no RBE, no SDE, >5000 contrast) so I will probably get the TW600 in the next months while I wait maybe 1 yr. for my dream projector to be available... and enjoy every movie.

To me the 1600 lumens is a killer feature of the TW600 (compared to its D5 pals).

Can you post pictures? Is the black level acceptable?

Regards,

Andres

I too have an HS10 hanging from my ceiling. Honestly if I weren't selling it with the house I would probably hold on to it a bit longer and wait for the 1080p LCDs to hit the market. Alas, I'll probably be buying "early" as I had figured on getting a few more years out of the HS10.

I am not really looking forward to the step down in resolution. I will however welcome the additional lumens and much higher contrast with open arms.

hi art,

i have the TW600 which actually is the 800 in the US, the main difference being 1600 ANSI and higher contrast on the spec

i haven't seen Z4/900 but i had the Z3 before which was considered to be pretty "sharp" and i dont feel that the TW600 is less sharp, but i cant do side-by-side because i have sold the Z3.

it is somewhere in the middle of the PJ i have seen, there are sharper PJ:s out there but also those that are less sharp.

i am very pleased with the image from the TW600, and basically i bought it as a "middle" PJ before 1080p hits the market probably next fall with C2 fine technology etc.

here i sweden there are many who have seen the Z4/900 compared to the TW600 and the usual response is that Z4 is sharper but not the 900.

the only disappointment is the lame auto-iris it is pretty slow and i prefer a HS50 like auto iris but it seems that neither of the D5 can match the iris of HS50.

i got it for the intro-price here in sweden which was 2000$ with 3years on location warranty and 1year/1000h on the lamp, a good deal to me.

Hello,

I noticed on the Epson USA site that there is a 180 day continuous warranty on the 2 bulbs. I thought there was a 1 year warranty on the bulb like you stated on your TW 600??

rmlowz

here in sweden the epson-supplier recently changed the lamp policy from 90days to 1year/1000h

i dont now how it is in the US, also here in sweden some panny 900-suppliers recently changed lamp policy to 2years/1500h :)

Thanks ZoomAir,

That makes me hopeful that there is a problem with the unit they provided me, and not the Cinema 550 product overall.

I look forward to your postings after that show. -art

Ohlson,

I think I do... :) I'll try to get some screenshots this week, comparing both, if it is even possible to do that using stillshots.

Antorsae, yep, will do. Must learn to settle down!

Not 100% happy with the blacklevel, I must say, but still haven't done much tweaking.

NilsP

Wow Mr. Presenter... between the 900 and the Z4 that one comparison between the two where you show the big "D" and the difference in pixelation really tosses the Z4 to the floor for me versus the 900. Add in the commentary about the SD processing and the Z4 is all but dead to me. Those are two huge issues for me.

Now, I just need to see what you say about the Epsons...

Hi again art!

i have taken a closer look at the sharpness on my TW600 and i must say it is a little bit soft, just as CKL pointed out. however the sharpness is consistant over the whole screen even after some lensshift which is good.

but the optics on the TW600 is not the greatest, however it is not a big issue, i dont now how your 550 looks.

looking forward to your report.

and i only have one request, your reports are terrific but there is one minor detail and that is the pictures. it would be great if they where "click-able" so that you could get a larger picture. i have high resolution on my computer screen so the pictures are so small.

I was sorry to check this thread this morning to find out that Art's demo unit was potentially bad. I'm eagerly awaiting some state side reviews of this unit to come out to aid in the decision between this and the Panny (btw, excellent comparison between the Sanyo and Panny Art).
FYI - a large (probably one of the largest) forum sponsors now has both this and the 800 listed for order. As soon as it gets a little later in the morning I will call to find out whether these are actually in house yet and see if any shootouts have been conducted. Golly...wouldn't it be great to have this done before Christmas!

The TW600 was just launched in Asia and I jumped on the bandwagon due to the attractive launch promo price. Haven't had much time to tweak or play with the baby but also felt that it was a bit 'soft' initially. This was via an Oppo dvd player upconverting to 720p thro' a DVI-HDMI convertor. Maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me but what I found to slightly increase sharpness was to access the aspect mode and ensure that "Through" and "Larger' is selected. (i checked the manual and found that 'Normal'size displays the image @ 92% instead of 100%). Not too sure whether it would work for you guys but I am seeing a slightly sharper image when I make those selections. This was more apparent when I hooked up my htpc to the set with 1:1 pixel mapping.

First post! Just love AVS Forums but never joined in till now. I've been playing with it since Nov 5 :D . I too bought it at the launch in Asia to upgrade my faithful Hitachi TX-100. Recently I hooked it up with a brand new Pioneer 989AVI which replaces my equally loyal Samsung HD-939 player and the entire upgrade/leap was just breathtaking.

Gone is the Screendoor effect, gone is the occasional white crush I used to have on some DVD's (thanks to Epson's Super White feature), and last of all farewell to VB!

My uncalibrated settings through HDMI on high contrast 86" grey screen: (everything else default)

Theatre Black 2
Gamma 2.2
Color Temp 6500K
Super White ON
Auto Iris ON

Absolutely no Iris flickering so far when I watched Pirates of the Carribean, Star Wars ROTS, I,Robot, T2: Extreme Edition. Black detail & White detail seems better than the Hitachi, color was more natural than the Hitachi and overall the black level has improved enough to justify the purchase.

Kudos to the D5 LCD panel!

p.s. If you lay your hand on the projector's casing over the lens, you can feel the dynamic iris flitting about silently.

First post! Just love AVS Forums but never joined in till now. I've been playing with it since Nov 5 :D . I too bought it at the launch in Asia to upgrade my faithful Hitachi TX-100. Recently I hooked it up with a brand new Pioneer 989AVI which replaces my equally loyal Samsung HD-939 player and the entire upgrade/leap was just breathtaking.

Gone is the Screendoor effect, gone is the occasional white crush I used to have on some DVD's (thanks to Epson's Super White feature), and last of all farewell to VB!

My uncalibrated settings through HDMI on high contrast 86" grey screen: (everything else default)

Theatre Black 2
Gamma 2.2
Color Temp 6500K
Super White ON
Auto Iris ON

Absolutely no Iris flickering so far when I watched Pirates of the Carribean, Star Wars ROTS, I,Robot, T2: Extreme Edition. Black detail & White detail seems better than the Hitachi, color was more natural than the Hitachi and overall the black level has improved enough to justify the purchase.

Kudos to the D5 LCD panel!

p.s. If you lay your hand on the projector's casing over the lens, you can feel the dynamic iris flitting about silently.

Great stuff. Can't spot any VB either altho' haven't viewed that many movies yet. You can try this setting based largely on what CKL used to obtain D65 calibration. First, save your current settings in memory and then try the following :


Natural
Gamma 2.2
Colour temp 9000K
Skin colour 5 (i upped it a bit as I did not have the exact settings used)
Auto Iris On

[RGB]
Offset R -12
Offset G 1
Offest B -10
R 6
G 8
B 0

I found the flesh tones to be more natural rather than the default theatre black 1 or 2. If you find it not to your liking, you can just reload your previous settings. The memory settings are retained even if you switch off the mains.

My short list is now TW600 (Extra Lumens + Warranty) and AE900 (Decent Deinterlacer for TV and Dynamic Gamma on DI)

What is the TW600 Dynamic Mode (1600 Lumens) like for daytime viewing compared to the AE900?

Thanks to anybody that can answer that.

Anim

TW600 dynamic setting is brutal, it is enough for smaller presentations.

i have switched between natural and the theatre modes and i cant justify theatre black, natural gives the picture more punch and depth. the fan is however very noisy at natural.

6500K is not D65 just as CKL said, 6500K is very warm and around 8000K and up i fell is closer to D65.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I want to clarify which projector is being talked about in this thread. Confusion may exist because of Epson's policy of having different model numbers for the U.S. and the European/Asian markets.

In the U.S., we have the 550 (msrp $2495) and the 800 (msrp $4495). In the European/Asian markets, the 550 (this thread) is the model 520, and the 800 is the model 600.

Is the assumption that what applies to the higher priced pjs will apply to the lower priced ones, or will a buyer of the 550 here be misled by any raves/nays of the 600?

Shelly

I think we've hashed this out here before, but to be honest, I'm not sure if we can say with any certainty yet that the 800 is equivalent to the 600. For one thing, there is certainly a different case for the 800 here (black v white - I know that is fairly insigificant because its whats inside that counts...). Yes, some of the stats seem to be more similar to the 800 here v the 550, but the product literature for the 800 makes a very big deal out of the ISF calibration and different modes that the 800 has v the 550 (look at the pdf here http://epsonpresskit.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=pageF&cat=61 ) - it does not appear, from my reading of it anyway, that this is the case for the 600. In fact, if you look at the modes listed for the 600 v the 550 v the 800 they are clearly different:
TW600 (off of the UK Epson site): Dynamic, Living room, sRGB, Natural, Theatre, Theatre black 1, Theatre black 2

From the pdf:
550: Dynamic, Living Room, sRGB, Natual, Theater, Theater Black 1, Theater Black 2

800: Vivid, Cinema Day, Standard, Natural, Cinema Night, HD, Silver Screen

Is this a big deal? Well, given the promitional literature for the 800 and what's actually different...maybe yes...these modes seem to be one of the big selling points with the 800.

So, I think that the jury may be still out. Yes, the contrast ration for the 600 matches the 800, as so does the lumens...but is that real? We all know that contrast numbers are inflated, and the lumen difference is only 100. As of right now we have to remember that no one has the 550 yet, let alone the 800. Happy hunting.

I think we've hashed this out here before, but to be honest, I'm not sure if we can say with any certainty yet that the 800 is equivalent to the 600. For one thing, there is certainly a different case for the 800 here (black v white - I know that is fairly insigificant because its whats inside that counts...). Yes, some of the stats seem to be more similar to the 800 here v the 550, but the product literature for the 800 makes a very big deal out of the ISF calibration and different modes that the 800 has v the 550 (look at the pdf here http://epsonpresskit.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=pageF&cat=61 ) - it does not appear, from my reading of it anyway, that this is the case for the 600. In fact, if you look at the modes listed for the 600 v the 550 v the 800 they are clearly different:
TW600 (off of the UK Epson site): Dynamic, Living room, sRGB, Natural, Theatre, Theatre black 1, Theatre black 2

From the pdf:
550: Dynamic, Living Room, sRGB, Natual, Theater, Theater Black 1, Theater Black 2

800: Vivid, Cinema Day, Standard, Natural, Cinema Night, HD, Silver Screen

Is this a big deal? Well, given the promitional literature for the 800 and what's actually different...maybe yes...these modes seem to be one of the big selling points with the 800.

So, I think that the jury may be still out. Yes, the contrast ration for the 600 matches the 800, as so does the lumens...but is that real? We all know that contrast numbers are inflated, and the lumen difference is only 100. As of right now we have to remember that no one has the 550 yet, let alone the 800. Happy hunting.

Don't get me wrong. I am happy to get whatever feedback possible on any of the new Epson models.

Your comparative picture modes for each model is quite revealing, and, perhaps, the 600 and 550 are the same. Perhaps there is no model 520 as nobody has yet reported on it.

Just playing the waiting game as well.

Shelly

My analysis
Different names same color mode but the last couple are abit different and one extra especially for silver screens.

Europe has little HD so we got two Theater black modes the second with more of a film look, the first more towards dvd.

The 800 gives Cinema Night for DVD and that color space and HD for just HD. The silver mode for those with such screens.

More careful callibration is probably put into the 800 but it is physically the same. This is my guess.

I think that more careful calibration was always attributed to the 800 and what made it more special (and pricey). If you read the product literature, this is exactly what is supposed to make the 800 so special (not just what's on the website, read the pdf).
As I believe MikeSRC said earlier in this thread - according to Epson reps the dynamic iris and panels are the same in the 800 and the 550. That, and the projector mount and extra bulb (I don't know...is that maybe $1k of the difference in the US) and you're left with the difference in price.
The 800 is also supposed to be more similar to the Yamaha LCD's - niche products strictly intended for the cutom installation industry. Even the Forum sponsor carrying them has told me that they are selling them on a local install basis only. So, I will respectfully disagree with Ohlson - in my analysis, the 550 and 600 are equivalent machines and the contrast ratio and lumen output (smoke and mirrors anyway - no machine this year has come anywhere close to their specs in real world situations) are really no different between the two.

In the end this is all speculation and irrelevent. If the 600 were truly equivalent to the 800 then I can't imagine that Epson Europe wouldn't be touting the same specialities that the promotional material for the 800 clearly states is the beauty of the machine. If we take price as the main determinent than yes, to the original question, I believe that we can say for all intents and purposes that the 600 is similar enough to the 550 to make comparisons worthwhile. Again, in the end, it really doesn't matter does it?

On a different note, an AVS forum sponsor emailed me today and said that: "Spec wise it looks good. My product manager saw it and really liked it.

Good news.....I did find out just 5 minutes ago that the Epson 550s will be here next week! All of us reps will get a chance to look at it and then I'll be back in touch with you."

So, for those of us in the US looking to get some feedback on the actual machine (remember...no one has seen the 550...there are no professional reviews yet save CKL's)-this should be coming shortly.

Great stuff. Can't spot any VB either altho' haven't viewed that many movies yet. You can try this setting based largely on what CKL used to obtain D65 calibration. First, save your current settings in memory and then try the following :


Natural
Gamma 2.2
Colour temp 9000K
Skin colour 5 (i upped it a bit as I did not have the exact settings used)
Auto Iris On

[RGB]
Offset R -12
Offset G 1
Offest B -10
R 6
G 8
B 0

I found the flesh tones to be more natural rather than the default theatre black 1 or 2. If you find it not to your liking, you can just reload your previous settings. The memory settings are retained even if you switch off the mains.

Thanks! Will try that out today and post back the results! ;)

I'm not sure if this has been posted in this thread, but here is a link to the manual for the Epson 550.

http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/supDetail.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&infoType=Doc&oid=63145&prodoid=61555446&category=Products

Shelly

I have a question to ruffle some feathers...
Given the price difference in the Epson 550 here in the states versus the 900 and the Z4 we've almost given ourselves enough to pay for one of the big shots to come in and professionally calibrate our projectors - let alone Guitarman cailbrating two inputs for a couple of hundred dollars. I had been sticking to my guns with te 550 because of Epsons reputation for both good OOTB projectors and build quality, but someone just pointed out to me that the price difference, given rebates for the Panasonic, is around 20-25% more for the Epson. What are we expecting out of this projector to justify the price difference?

A link to information on rebates would be great. I found nothing on the Epson web site about it.

Sorry...rebates for the Panasonic 900...There is a $200 rebate and a $300 Blockbuster Gift Card (see the Panasonic 900 sticky thread) on this which bring the street price to more than 20% less then the MSRP for the Epson.

Do we even know what the 550 will street for here?

There will also be a couple of authorized online sellers, which wasn't the case before.

As I see it, it will street for the MSRP - with such a small distribution network, Epson can keep a pretty tight leash on the pricing.
I don't want to break forum rules, but one of the very big forum sponsors has the projector listed on their website...for MSRP (well, actually $2499). From my conversations with them it didn't sound like they'd be moving off the MSRP.

my local dealer has given me a preliminary indication that I would not be paying anywhere near MSRP on the Epson. Of course, I've known him for 25 years and spent quite a lot of money in his store over the last 18 of those years.

Unless the Epson is significantly better in some way than the Panasonic, if the Panasonic is less expensive then that is the way I will go. He has a 550 on order so when it comes in I will go demo it in his store and post my thoughts.

That's good to hear. Unfortunately, as of right now, there are no Epson Home Theater dealers in the entire state of North Carolina...let alone any that I have a 25 year relationship with. Like I said, the few internet authorized internet dealers that have confirmed that they are carrying the projector have not given any indication that the price will be anything different than MSRP - but there's always hope.

At this point, your logic, in my mind is sound. I'm literally waiting to see if any of the reviews say: WOW...like they did for the 500...if not, the difference in price just doesn't seem warranted in my mind. Again, I guess all of this is moot until someone...anyone...see's the projector in the US...then we can hash through all of these discusions again.

Vigga
You could also say 550 is similar to 520. Yes the 800 is special. Still I do not think it is of tw500 class above tw200 in respect to tw600.

In USA there is an installer channel to sell through that does not exist over here.

i think it is pretty obvious that

TW550 = TW520 here in europe and
TW800 = TW600

sure the TW800 has some pre-calibrated modes but nothing that i would pay so much extra for

the main difference being marketing strategy from epson with the TW800

i got my TW600 here in sweden for 2000$ with 3years on site warranty and 1year/1000h on the bulb.

and i get more and more happy with the TW600 :)

i have the natural mode and pretty much CKL values and the picture is very nice

TW600 has just been released in Australia. List price is the cheapest of all D5 projectors by a large margin and also cheaper than Sony HS60 which sits in between.

Link to Epson Australia site for specs and bonus promotion of free screen and DVD's.

http://www.epson.com.au/products/projector/emptw600.asp
https://www.clubepson.com.au/competitions/data/2005_800072/promotion.asp

Cheers
Muzz

Muzz,

Thanbks for the links. Once there, you'll find the link for the manual, located here

http://tech.epson.com.au/downloads/product.asp?id=emptw600

It is the manual for the 520/600, and the manual states that the model number depends on world location, confirming that these are the same models. Should be the same as the 550 set to launch in the US.

What I like most is the dirrect button on the remote for adjusting flesh tones. Nine user memories, plus every possible color correction. Aside from the typical rgb gain and bias adjustments, there is insant sliding adfjusment for color temperature.

This projector sounds great. Only the early reports of the soft image are disturbing to me. Can't wait for more user/profesional reviews once the product is further into circulation.

Shelly

PS I've compared this linked manual for the 520/600 and the manual for the 550 posted earlier in this thread. Although the settings, coices and information is the same, I prefer the layout and expanded detailed explanations of the 520/600. Perhaps the manual for the 550 will be polished before the actual release here.

Hi Guys-
Just to let you know: Art over at Projector Reviews has posted a preliminary review of the 550.
http://www.projectorreviews.com/epson/cinema550/index.asp
In related news, Evan Powell says that 550 is in house and under review-
Cheers-
v

Well, guys, after reading this thread more closely than any others on the forum, I'm bidding so long, farewell.
I spoke with a forum sponsor today that is a dealer for the Epson. Despite saying that she was: "very impressed - I didn't think that anything this year would come close to the Panasonic, but the 550 and 800 did" I've decided to go with the Panasonic. The Epson is being sold at MSRP and even though she did say that performance was very similar, and, like Art's review, said that on HD, the Living Room mode was really quite nice (so football fans will be very happy), I can't see this being worth %25 higher cost. I had toyed with waiting for Evan's review at projector central, but I decided to pull the trigger instead.
Enjoy!

I will be putting the projector in a 15x19 totally light controlled room and projecting on a 110 inch carada matte white screen. I will be able to get the Epson from a local dealer for about the same price I can get the Panasonic from a reputable internet dealer.

The one caveat: I will want to sit relatively close to the screen, 1.2 or 1.3 times screen width. Should I get the Epson or the Panasonic?

Hello,

I would get the Epson two year warranty versus one on the Panny. Zero dead pixel policy and overnight delivery with an other projector IF anything goes wrong with the Epson. I ordered the Epson 800 coming from the Epson 500 according to my dealer they should ship in the next couple of weeks. This is my opinion and I do not work for Epson.

rmlowz

"I will want to sit relatively close to the screen, 1.2 or 1.3 times screen width."

For that close you might want to get the 900.

I could find no...NO...local dealer that sold the Epson...and I tried. In fact, the entire state of North Carolina appears to be a dead zone for Epson. I think I have spoken to Epson pre-sale support 5-7 times. Each time I had to convince them that the 550 was in fact a released product. Then I was repeatedly given businesses that were closed (Now A/V) and a local distributor that has ended its relationship with Epson. If I could find someone, anyone, that was an official dealer locally, that would be willing to work with me on the price, then yes, the Epson is certainly more attractive. But, look at it from another perspective. With the difference in cost, I could buy a 3 year extended warranty from my dealer, which includes overnight replacement, and still be less shipped than the Epson.

After finally getting some sort of manager in the phone, albeit in the business projector area, it was confirmed to me that Epson is very serious about making good market penetration in this area this year. Unfortunately, at least in the South East, that just doesn't seem to be the case.

I live in warren,ohio and got a chance to see the 550 epson today.The lights in the room were on and it was being fed 480 via a denon 2910.The main thing i noticed is the picture was bright . i have a ehome 8500 crt and i was surprised to see the projector is that bright in a lit room .when the lights were out it was very bright and the picture had a nice punch to it.I had to walk up within 3 feet to see the screen door.the screen was 103 inch .they did not have any other souces hooked up .I have been waiting to make the move from crt to dlp and i decided to go the lcd route .the new d5 chips have really tighted up the pixels.i have owned barco, vidikron, and ehome crts and the picture is on par with them .i am installing the 550 in a home and i purchased the 800 for me . The biggest selling feature for me is the epson comes with a card for waranty and if there is a problem they will swap the unit out according to the dealer.It is great looking and quiet unit.I have not seen the panasonic or the z4 but have dealt with epson on other commercial warranties and the have always made it right .I also like the fact they have the zero dead pixel warranty .I am told it is because they make the mirrors themselves.

jlyon

Thanks for that short review jlyon. I am coming from a panasonic 300 which I was very pleased with so I doubt that any of the projectors will dissapoint me, and I would really like to buy from my local dealer if he can be price competitive. But it is nice to hear the screendoor isn't obvious from any reasonable seating position.

Is information available yet that would allow me to calculate my possible throw distance for a 110 inch diagnol screen?

Hello,

The throw distance is the same as last years models the calculator is on the Epson site

rmlowz

Thanks, Now can someone explain to me how to use the following information (pasted from the Epson web site) to calculate my available throw distance for a 110 inch diagnol screen? :D

Screen Size (Projected Distance) - 16:9 Image

16:9

Wide: 30" to 300" (2.9' – 30')
Tele: 30" to 300" (4.4' – 44.8')
4:3

Wide: 30" to 300" (3.5' – 36.8'))
Tele: 30" to 300" (5.3' – 54.8')


Hello,

The throw distance is the same as last years models the calculator is on the Epson site

rmlowz

rmlowz,

This might seem like a strange question but do you see the Epson 800
as an upgrade on the 500 and if so how much of an upgrade are you
expecting?

Regards

Hello,

MrBreeze,
On the Epson site you can click on the Epson 800, then click on tech support, then click on drivers and downloads and you can download the throw calculator for the 500 it will give you what you need right to the inch.

Oiler,

I had the chance to sell my 500 so that's why I am upgrading to the 800. This will be my 3rd projector in 3 years 12HT was first. I like Epson projectors. I believe it will be an upgrade, I expect less screen door and better blacks the ISF modes remain to be seen. I don't know about the deinterlacing or the scaling on the 800 this year. I got nervous and ordered a VP30 which I needed anyways for a switcher. I need to be in the LCD camp, my wife sees rainbows.

rmlowz

Thanks rmlowz,

It will be interesting to see how you think the two generations compare.
I really like my Epson and like you my wife can't take DLP. I was hoping that the
Epson 800 would be a nice step up but so far I have not heard anything
that leads me to conclude that this is true. You certainly seem to be
in a good position to judge.

Regards

i put the 550 through its paces today.First component in from a koss dvd player
very nice picture .Then from a momitsu 880 720 out from the dvi connector to hdmi.The picture looked great.We ended up switching to natural color and the picture really comes off the screen.I am using a vutec brite white screen.the projector is at 16 feet and the screen is 11 foot by 54 inches.we had a lamp on and a light at other end of the room and the picture was fine.still much better in controlled lighting.Lastly my sons friend brought over a xbox.we tried a playstation 2 first and it looked terrible.then the xbox component out.what great graphics .also 5.1 sound.You can still tell the heavy graphics areas of the games because it looses some of the sharpness .the desert battles were awesome.
Im not a big gamer but his friends were all impressed.I have some friends coming over tommorow and we are going to try a computer for dvdplayback and hdtv.
Set up is a snap.there is horizontal shift and vertical shift of the lense.and if that is not enough you can shift it electronically in the menus.We were sitting at 16 feet and could not see screen door.I also see in the menu you can auto track computer resolutions if you have banding or manual track it.Im no professional installer but this is my unbiased opinion.

jlyon

Did you use component on the PS2? Both the Xbox and PS2 looks great for me. Can't wait for the next-gen hardware! :)

NilsP

no i didnt have the component cable for the ps2.

jlyon

Tw600 tested on a dutch htforum.
I think it's the same as a tw800 in the us.
Since the tw520 (tw550 us) is almost the same model I'll post it here.

Direct translated link

http://www.systranbox.com/systran/box

I don't think a direct link works though so if you want to read this review you'll have to translate it yourself.

http://www.htforum.nl/yabbse/index.php?topic=37131.0

You can use

http://www.freetranslation.com/free/web.htm

or

http://www.systransoft.com/index.html

Here in Australia discount dealers now selling the Epson TW600 (aka TW800) for just $2400 AUD, think under $2000 USD. Also get 100" pull down screen and 10 DVD titles from Epson.

Street prices for Sony HS60 and Panasonic AE 900 now $2950 AUD

Hello. I'm a new member and looking to purchase my first projector. I've seen a few people mention waiting for reviews from CKL. Who is CKL and where are CKL's reviews posted?

Thanks!

Hi G_sin,

You can read my reviews in the following link.

CKL,

Are you planning to review the Hitachi TX200 (PJ52)?

Shelly

Just receive a call from the dealer that TX200 has just arrived. I will go to have a look tomorrow.

Just receive a call from the dealer that TX200 has just arrived. I will go to have a look tomorrow.

this i am really looking forward to, here in sweden the TX200 commonly regarded as the best of the D5 PJ:s

i look forward to here your toughts CKL and perhaps even an review is coming to complete all the D5 PJ:s

Hi guys,

It sure would be NICE if instead of worthless comments about other Epson projectors someone would just post some darn reviews about the 550. Perhaps even the TW600 would be interesting if it is a similar enough projector to the 550 but frankly I am getting tired of checking this thread and only reading a bunch of worthless chatter about other Epson projectors.

I am not trying to upset any of you but if I did, perhaps you need a little more back bone!

"Tag" man

Hi guys,

It sure would be NICE if instead of worthless comments about other Epson projectors someone would just post some darn reviews about the 550. Perhaps even the TW600 would be interesting if it is a similar enough projector to the 550 but frankly I am getting tired of checking this thread and only reading a bunch of worthless chatter about other Epson projectors.

I am not trying to upset any of you but if I did, perhaps you need a little more back bone!

"Tag" man

This is totally what I was thinking!

Hello,

The throw distance is the same as last years models the calculator is on the Epson site

rmlowz

Can someone explain the difference between the wide/tele options on the Epson projection distance calendar for the Epson 500/550? Basically I want to know the largest possible 4:3 image I can display from a given distance. Can I actually get the screen size advertised when using the wide setting?

Thanks much.

wmingle

How good is the horizontal lens shift on the Epson? I'm hoping it can do 40%-50% similar to the Sany Z4. If that is the case the Epson will be another option with the Hitachi TX200. I'm suprised the Epson isn't making more of a splash. Most people are still talking about the Panisonic AE900 and the Z4.

How good is the horizontal lens shift on the Epson? I'm hoping it can do 40%-50% similar to the Sany Z4. If that is the case the Epson will be another option with the Hitachi TX200. I'm suprised the Epson isn't making more of a splash. Most people are still talking about the Panisonic AE900 and the Z4.


My dealer tells me the lens shift is significant enough for corner placement. I think few are talking about the Epson because they are just now being released. My dealer has one on order but has yet to receive it.

I will not be installing one in my home theater until completion of my house in late Jaunary, but will evaluate the 550 he receives as soon as he gets it in and hooked up.

Limited distribution network is also hurting Epson buzz at this point. I tried, in vain, to find one to take a look at. I got a significant runaround from Epson presale support and was finally told, conclusively, that there is not a dealer anywhere in the state of NC.

Vigga, I find that it is hard to audition any projector. There are only a handful of of places that even have projectors and they usually have either super high end brands or other brands that don't get good reviews. I think I'm going to have to read the reviews and make my decision that way. Projectorpeople.com and projectorsolution.com both have the 550 in stock for the same price.

Does anyone know how the Cinema 550 is in regards to SDE? The review I read on projectorreviews.com doesn't mention how far away you have to sit.

Agreed-but, with the limited distribution network, there are very few people who have actually seen the thing period. There is only one professional review that I know of (projectorreviews.com), and despite much bickering between those on this thread...there is just too much gray evidence to say that, conclusively, the European/Asian TW600 is the same/not the same, etc as the 550. Where are the reviews? ProjectorCentral has promised one to be up repeatedly over the last two weeks (the most recent thing I was told was that it would likely be posted Wednesday or Thursday - being this past Wednesday and yesterday). The only Americans on this forum to have access to the projector are those who are getting them at local dealers. I was faced with the following choice: Those getting the projectors from their local dealers were getting what I considered to be reasonable prices (less than MSRP). ProjectorPeople and projectorsolution are both selling at MSRP. At $2499, is the projector really worth 25% more than the street prices for Sanyo Z4's and Panasonic 900's? I don't think that there has been a review posted yet that would suggest that would be the case.

Also, with a post here and there I've been able to demo the 500, 700, Z2, Z3 and Sony HS51...maybe not in stores...but they are out there to see.

John...I notice that you are in Staten Island...if you take a trip into Manhattan you'll be able to demo the 550 in about two weeks. I don't want to break forum rules...but I've gotten confirmation that one of the Epson Cinema dealers in the city will have the projector for you to see.

Take a look at PJ central's news bit for 12/2

They are having an issue with their sample, but state that the 550 looks very promising.

i just received the 800 today.i took it out of the box it is a great looking projector.
i will say this .if the mount is any indication of the quality of the projector then they may have something.i will hang it today and check it out .will post my finds this week.

jlyon

Vigga, drop me a line if you get a chance and tell me more about where to see it. I work in Manhattan. I hear what your saying about the price. I was hoping it would come down as it comes available to compete with the models you stated. I'm getting frustrated with the lack of reviews myself. The Hitachi HDPD52 is also without alot of feedback. I'm hoping for something similar to the Sanyo Z4 with less of a screen door effect. I know the Panny 900 is the obvious choice but I need a better horizontal shift than the Panny offers.

J. Lyon, good luck with the 800. It looks like a phenominal projector! I wish it wasn't soooo much money. If it were $500-$1000 more than the 550 I would consider it. I just think it is just too damn expensive. I figure eventrually I'm going to want a 3 chip 1080 projector when they come down in price in years down the road. I don't want to spend that much right now.

Yeah, will have to go see all these darn things at CES coming up. Of course, they show the things in half-light show room environments. So getting a good look at black level is about a wash probably.

" Take a look at PJ central's news bit for 12/2

They are having an issue with their sample, but state that the 550 looks very promising."

To say the least:

"Black levels, shadow separation, and color saturation are first rate, and meet or exceed the performance of the other new LCD products we've recently reviewed.... in terms of visible contrast on the screen, the 550 actually has a slight edge on competing units with much higher contrast ratings."

This comes as quite a surprise after all the previous reports describing it as at best average among the group.

Noah, I just read it and that is indeed some great news!