LCD
Resolution: 1280 x 720
Brightness: 1600 ANSI lumens
Contrast: 5000:1
Lamp life 3,000 hours
Manual zoom F 2.1 - 2.8
Automatic iris
Horizontal and vertical lens shift
HDMI input
Weight 5.2 kg (that's 11.5 pounds for the metric-impaired)
Price: 1,890 euros

Source: French forum homecinema-fr, citing the September catalogue of a large French home theater equipment retailer.

I hope that the built in cinema filter is still in the design.
The contrast is lower than I expected, but this might be chosen so they can market a 1080p lcd at 8000:1.
I see Epson as a quality product provider in the projector segment abot above Sanyo and Panasonic.
I hope this Epson is silent too.

And as a rule....isnt Epson generally conservative in their specs? Meaning that the Lumens and 5000:1 should be at D65. Or am I wrong?

Yes, I think they are conservative relative to the claims by others.

I hope the lumens can be tamed a lot in eco mode and with a cinema filter.

Epson's Cinema 500 has realistic CR and lumen outputs. If this holds true with the TW600, then we should have a projector that not only has significantly greater light output also up to 4x the contrast. Add in the higher fill factor and response time of the D5 panels and you have got a really nice projector. I would be VERY surprised in Epson did not include the internal colour filter found in the Cinema 500. This is what allowed the Cinema 500 to have such great out of the box colour balance and high CR. I would also be VERY surprised if the TW600 had a MSRP of less than $3500 USD.

Does anybody know when the TW600 is going to be release?

Scott B
You did notice the MSRP of 1890 euro. This is clearly their volume projector. The next one will be 1080p and cost a lot more. That is my guess. I see this as an upgrade to a the now old tw200.

This is great news if that price is correct, thanks Grubert.

If it is, Mattias' guess sounds plausible, which is also great because it may indicate that Epson will price the 1080 model where it had the 500 before.

I presume it will still have the powered zoom/focus, since evn the lowly 200 had it before.

Perhaps the biggest question remaining is have they solved the VB problem.

Mattias,

Doh! I crapped myself after reading the lumens and contrast specs and didn't notice anything else. LCD projector progress is incredible. If they can keep the quality of the Cinema 500 with this new projector, then the only way Panasonic and Sanyo can compete is by offering even lower pricing.

Who wants an excellent condition, low hours Cinema 500?

noah katz
The description of the D5 drive scheme sure sounded like VB elimination to me but you never know.
I also hope they have kept the powered zoom and focus from tw200.

Scott - where were you last Friday when I decided to buy a new projector? ;)

Would have jumped on it in a heartbeat.

m@rkus
I have had the Cinema 500 for a little over a year now and am still very happy with it, however, I think the upcoming D5 projectors (especially the one from Epson) are going to prove to be irresistible. I was hoping to get a 1080P D5 projector, but it looks like that is going to have to wait at least another year which is too long for me to go without a projector change.

Ohlson,
I agree with you. From what I have read, it does look like VB will be reduced/eliminated with the D5 panels.

Wow!!! An Epson for $2300ish!!!!!

subscribed

Hey Scott,
Yep, that looks like a deal to me. I wonder where they cut corners relative to the Cinema 500. Maybe the video processing took a hit. This is one area where the Cinema 500 was significantly better than the Cinema 200. I believe the optics in the Cinema 500 were also a step above those in the Cinema 200.

Yes this looks like a possible frontrunner at that price MSRP $2300 USD.

Hey Scott,
Yep, that looks like a deal to me. I wonder where they cut corners relative to the Cinema 500. Maybe the video processing took a hit. This is one area where the Cinema 500 was significantly better than the Cinema 200. I believe the optics in the Cinema 500 were also a step above those in the Cinema 200.
You mean the split Faroudja for deinterlacing and DNIC (Silicon Image?) scaling? :) Yep, it definitely sounds like Epson has a winner.

Mattias - Yes, you can believe Epson's specs, or at least I do. Unlike the HS51, I would expect every single TW600 to get over 4000:1 CR and 1500 lumens (in high lamp mode, calibrated). I would expect probably around 500 lumens in low lamp mode, so a black level of around 0.1 lumens. Not too bad, especially for larger screens.

Apparently there's also a TW 520 coming, presumably slotting in where the 200 was. That would be good, hopefully indicating the 500 isn't a low end model, and would keep the good video processing.

Ursa,

Curious why you think there'd be a 3:1 brightness difference between high and low lamp when the difference in power would likely be 25% at most.

Noah - When I had my TW500, it was cranking out about 380 lumens on low, with an iris robbing it of ~25% of its light output to get the contrast to where it was (1,000 lumen projector, less some deviation, less 25% for eco mode, less 25% for iris). My guess, then, is that to hit the 5000:1 spec, there will be an iris engaged even at max brightness. This is to let the panel drive the contrast as much as possible before light modulation takes over. In addition, I think that to get the gamma right, you will probably have to dial back the contrast a bit, much like with the HS51. Hence my guess of this thing pumping out ~500 lumens calibrated.

Man if this is true and at that price I am going to be so tempted to upgrade from my Epson 500. Prob is I am moving (and need to buy all enw appliances and then complete the basement) so am not going to have cash to whip around for projectors for aprobably the next year. Good thing I really enjoy the 500 so not upgrading early on wont be that big an issue.

Ursa (Bill, right?),

Makes sense.

500 L is still nearly double what most calibrated DLP DC3's are getting, a definite selling point for me.

I hope that price is right and isn't for the TW520 model or some other mistake. This price is a reasonable amount lower than the TW200 and so if it is right for the TW600, then a TW520 would have to be even lower and a big price drop from the MSRP of the TW200 (at least in the US).

Then again, maybe that price for the TW600 was street and not MSRP.

--Darin

Darin - My guess is that will be a minor drop off of list. European retailers tend, especially catalog ones, tend to be pretty close to list, IME. However, I think you may be right on that being for the TW520. Rajiv could chime in here on what this is all about, but then he would blow his own product announcement... ;)

The MSRP on the TW500 finally hit $3995, but that is still well above its street price. From a product management standpoint, the numbering indicates that both are steps up from the TW500. This makes me curious as to whether Rajiv took my suggestion and is offering a "base" D5 unit with no dynamic iris using the TW500 chassis. If so, then this could definitely be in the $1999 MSRP (Eur~1800-ish), with some room on the bottom for dealers.

I just hope they get 1080p figured out by CES. I'd hate to be off with my prediction by a full year!

Later,
Bill

In addition, I think that to get the gamma right, you will probably have to dial back the contrast a bit, much like with the HS51. Hence my guess of this thing pumping out ~500 lumens calibrated.

O/T here, and I haven't been following the HS51 story, but a DI impacting on the gamma suggests that it is not affecting all levels uniformly. Is this so, or is there something I'm missing?

Back on Topic:
I must not be tempted. I must not be tempted. I must not.....

ted

O/T here, and I haven't been following the HS51 story, but a DI impacting on the gamma suggests that it is not affecting all levels uniformly. Is this so, or is there something I'm missing?

Yes, this is off-topic! If you read the reviews of the HS51, this was its biggest weakness, and why it is such a challenge to calibrate with the DI on. Bill Cushman had to take his from a contrast of ~80 and 400 lumens or so to ~40 and 140 lumens of output, IIRC (I spoke to Bill about this several months ago). Others have reported similar results, while others have not. It seems to be a bit hit-or-miss with the individual unit (and perhaps skill of the calibrator).

Anyway, so when do we get to speculate on the EMP-TW10000 with 1080p and 5000:1 CR? I would take that and be done for an awfully long time right now.

that projector looks cool

urs
Manual zoom F 2.1 - 2.8


Manual zoom? The old TW200/500 all have power zoom/focus! :(

regards,

Li On

"Manual zoom? The old TW200/500 all have power zoom/focus!"

Darn, how did I miss seeing that?

That's certainly disappointing, but you can hardly blame Epson for saving costs in this cutthroat market by removing features that their competitors don't have.

You know Benq 7700 and Benq 7800. Benq 7700 is the higher end unit. That is why tw600 could be a lower end unit. As someone pointed out tw600 has a manual zoom. I missed that. That is a sign of a lower end unit.

I do not believe in a projector below tw600. I can actually believe in a tw520 being above tw600.

Being also a former TW500 owner, and one who felt it was the cream of the crop for 720p LCDs, I'm very excited by this. Very excited.

madpoet
1 I would like a second source before I get too excited. This applies to all of us. There is still uncertainty.

2 The 1600 ANSI lumen
How much less do you expect from tw600 in eco mode , theater calibration and cinema filter on? Base this upon your tw500 experience.

3 The manual zoom tells us this will be their volume projector. A tw520 could be a tw500 with auto iris.

Still I am surprised about the rather low contrast. Epson was talking about 7500-9000:1 based upon a prototype.

I am very tempted to stop reading this forum. The urge to upgrade is
much worse than I thought it would be.

My first computer was a Commadore 64 followed by an IBM PC Jr,
etc. ... I don't want to go down this route again!!!

The good news is that I have no complaints about my Cinema 500
but if the specs improve significantly and the price drops in half
who can resist temptation!!!

Regards

So are Epson projectors good then?

Some people here have pegged this projector as being the best out of the Sanyo\Panny\Epson trio, is that really right?

You'll have to forgive my ignorance here :p its just i never really pegged Epson as being a worthwhile manufacturer of home electronics, i know (or.. think) they make the D5 etc panels, but didn't think their projectors would be that great compared to the likes of panasonic etc.

I definitely consider them a good projector building company. Don't forget even though they are not a standard CE company they are an "imaging" company their business be it printers, cameras, scanners, projectors or TVs they are all about creating or getting the image. I have seen many Epson projectors because of work and they definitely make good projectors

Epson projectors typically have excellent color reproduction and are properly "tuned" out of the box, offering in my opinion stunning pictures right off the bat (on certain settings of course - not vivid, dynamic etc). When I was purchasing my first projector, the Cinema 200 was head and shoulders above the Panny 500 and the Sanyo Z2 when it came to details, color reproduction, dynamics etc. Of course, it cost more at the time too :(

madpoet
The 1600 ANSI lumen
How much less do you expect from tw600 in eco mode , theater calibration and cinema filter on? Base this upon your tw500 experience.

Ohlson,
The Cinema 500 has a rated lumen spec of 1000 which is only achieved with the Living Room and Dynamic colour modes that do not use the internal colour filter (yuck!). There are three other colour modes including Natural, Theater and Theater Black which use the internal colour filter for very good colour accuracy. The Theater and Theater Black modes closes the internal iris slightly to obtain a bit higher on-off contrast than the Natural mode at the expense of light output. In addition to the colour modes, there are 10 different lamp output settings such that the light output between the colour modes and lamp output settings is variable accross an extreme range. Due to the large size and low gain of my screen I use the Natural mode and lamp output setting at +5 (on a scale from -5 to +5). This gave about 650-700 lumens when the lamp was fresh. Note that fan speed and noise increases at a lamp setting of +1 and again at +3. I did not find the difference in on-off contrast between the Natural and Theater modes very apparent so I optimized the light output of the projector.

So are Epson projectors good then?

Some people here have pegged this projector as being the best out of the Sanyo\Panny\Epson trio, is that really right?

The Smooth Screen Technology of the Panasonic is nice, but aside from that the Epsons are really top notch. Build quality is high, ANSI contrast is higher due to better optics, and in the case of the Cinema 500, on-off contrast is comparable to the Z3 and AE700 without the use of a dynamic iris or lamp modulation techniques.

So are Epson projectors good then?

They are the best LCD manufacturer, IMHO. The processing package in the TW500 was the best of any projector <$10k on the market.

"Manual zoom? The old TW200/500 all have power zoom/focus!"

Darn, how did I miss seeing that?

That's certainly disappointing, but you can hardly blame Epson for saving costs in this cutthroat market by removing features that their competitors don't have.

Noah - This may also be a method to cut defects as well. I was VERY unlucky with my experience with the TW500 (which is why I own the H77 now), and I think that the sheer amount of electromechanical adjustments might have had a higher failure rate than they were expecting. Given the excellent warranty, this could have led to higher costs beyond just the materials costs of the feature.

I would offer rmishra the same advice I gave him several times, though, and that is to beef up the packaging in the box!! I am personally convinced that most of my issues were damage caused in-transit, not by manufacturing issues.

Later,
Bill

Perhaps Epson has just deemed it time to throw their hat in the ring. I have no idea of the numbers. But judging from the popularity of the projectors being discussed on this site... Panasonic, Sanyo and Hitatchi seem to be selling allot of product using Epson's technology. Maybe they see some tidy profit to be made by releasing a 'budget' model of their own that will compete/trump the competition?

Probably true. The 500 was an outstanding machine, but way more expensive (MSRP) than other comparable machines. If I can get a 720p D5 with the same color accuracy and about 2x the real-world CR and somwhat better light output, that would be good. More CR always helps of course ;). Also worth noting is Epson's EXCELLENT warranty service. Hot ship warranty for the first year on the 500 I believe.

If the manual zoom/focus issue portends that this will be a lower end pj with lower end performance, then I understand the disappointment.

However, a manual zoom/focus itself is NOT a problem for me at all. I have only zoomed or focused my pj's twice in over 2 years now, and that was when I installed each one. Why would anyone waste the money on a power zoom/focus and run the risk/loss of all the malfunctions/warranty issues? HT pj's don't get moved around like presentation pjs, so what's the point of a power zoom/focus? Cause it's cool?

Some people used it in a constant height environment.

It was not too good in a constant height environment since you had to manually adjust the vertical lens shift when zooming in and out. However, I am not aware of a consumer-oriented projector that has power focus, zoom AND vertical lens shift.

Ursa,
The Sanyo PLV-70 (albeit an ancient machine) has power focus, zoom, AND vertical lens shift. I used to own a PLV-60 with these features which was ideal for use with my previous 2.0 aspect ratio screen.

"HT pj's don't get moved around like presentation pjs, so what's the point of a power zoom/focus?"

Some like the ability to conveniently zoom out to reduce image size, which increases brigthtness for daytime watching, makes poorer sources more watchable, or who just can't tolerate such big talking heads.

You guys thought of some novel uses for a power zoom, but I still think those are wasted on most users and could easily be sacrificed to bring down the price on a mainstream pj. Just my opinion though.

I actually didn't like the power zoom or power focus on my Cinema 200. Is was quite the chore to get it stop at precisely the right setting. Manual is much easier and quicker and so if it saves me a few bucks as well, so much the better.

For the record, I don't have my projector permanently mounted so everytime I set it up, I need to adjust zoom and focus again. As I said, POWER = pain in the ass if you have to use it every time.

The 600 epson is one heck of a projector. Reps from our company have already seen this projector in action over in asia.

2 members of our sales team ( both are hometheater fanatics and are DLP owners ) have had demos of the tw600 and this is what was said:

Contrast ratio is a huge leap over comparable 720p LCD units on the market right now.

Fill factor improvements are remarkable. ( This is coming from a person who owns the sharp XV-Z12000), a highly regarded high end dlp with a calibrated contast ratio of over 3600-1 ( advertised at 5000-1 uncalibrated ).

Bright and punchy with excellent color reproduction and intensity.


Great scaling capabilities.

The major advances in LCD technology in the last 2 years had never ceased to amaze me. No rainbows, no headaches, no eyestrain, heck- no problem.

Best part of all is the continuing low price for the performance factor that LCD projectors are showing.

Oh and by the way, epson continues to under-rate there contrast ratios as a measured 6000-1 was the result of our techs findings. ( This is with ACCURATE test equipment ). Rumors of CR ratings over 7500-1 could not be confirmed so it remains to be seen what reviewers will find once the projectors find there way into capable hands.

Boy do I love working in this field. :D

1,600 lumens is very high for a 9 by 16 projector. Maybe it will do an HONEST 1,000 lumens in low lamp mode. That would be good enough for most people to get 3,000 hours out of a bulb.

How is Epson's record at producing bulbs that last as advertised?

IB

Fill factor improvements are remarkable. ( This is coming from a person who owns the sharp XV-Z12000), a highly regarded high end dlp with a calibrated contast ratio of over 3600-1 ( advertised at 5000-1 uncalibrated ).
Sounds great. Any news on how this person felt they matched up overall? At some point the LCDs should surpass the quality of the 12k, but I'm not sure if this is it.

It will be interesting to see what the CR is without the dynamic iris, since the more it starts with the better it should be as far as not seeing the effect of the iris.


This is with ACCURATE test equipment.

In this range doing the tests correctly with accurate equipment makes a big difference. Now that CRs are so high I don't doubt that we will see more people (even supposed experts) measure things like 0.002 ft-lamberts off a screen and then claim CR of something like 5975:1, ignoring margin of error or significant digits with the equipment with such low measurements.

Can you tell us if the price quoted earlier which would indicate a US MSRP of most likely under $2500 sounds right for this model?

--Darin

Given the reported brightness, and image quality, if this thing goes on sale for 2.3k or less I will buy it on the first day. Can one of the brighter minds here tell me what size picture this thing can throw from 10 feet? I assume I should be able to figure it out from the zoom lens numbers. :confused:

I used to own a sharp XV-Z12000 before my transition to LCD because of DLP related issues.

This projector now belongs to a co worker which is frequently overseas ( I am scared of flying so I stay here, besides the fact I am not in sales ) and gets to see new technology and product releases well before north american markets even know what is going on.

The corporate market always gets the appetizers first. ;)

Yes, good contrast ratios without iris tricks is always desirable. This info coming from a highend DLP user made me salivate just a little more. An honest and professional opinion from people who are in the projector business everyday for a living is very valuable. An opinion from a 12k user:

Best 'darn' picture I have 'ever' seen so far from LCD.

I really doubt that the 600 is going to be under 3000 list. It seems to follow what we have seen before with other epson projectors when first released.

One thing that was mentioned was the almost absolute necessity for a filter on a hometheater application . I could not imagine watching a 'calibrated' 1000 lumens in a totally dark room.

I am very excited by this product and just can not wait to get some more detailed info tomorrow from the sales staff. Will report back! :)


I

Does anyone know if there will be vacuum holes for the LCD panels like the Z4 is showing. With LCD this is a fairly nice-to-have.

Yeah, it would be great to have access for cleaning. Sanyo really caught me off guard when they implemented this on there lcd offering. Great idea. Gee-Wiz, maybe I should not be saying this as It might put me out of a job. :D :D

Its good to hear that the D5 fill factor improvement actually made a real world difference. This is the only way I would upgrade now, if 1080P LCD still wasn't available mainstream. Otherwise I would just wait for 1080P LCD.

Considering the fact that high density ( generic term in our field to describe resolution ) lcd screens and panels are manufactured right now in the smallest of sizes, I belive that 1080p lcd on the larger panels sizes used in front projectors will be very easy to manufacture. The move away from organic materials is the move in the right direction.

As previously mentioned, the reported similarity in picture 'smoothness' by associates who own DLP units and have seen the 600 in action was the cats meow. :D

As for fan noise, from what I was told was that when you have 20 plus people in a conference room and everyone is shuffling around you really could not comment on it.

I just googled the current epson tw500, but did not see them (PowerLite don't count) for sale in this country other than the Epson main site. Is the 600 or 520 for sale outside the US only? Looks like the HT series are hard to find.

Never mind. Looks like tw500 is outside the US but PowerLite 500 is the US name.

Frank,

Thanks for the juicy tidbits!

Could you ask about the differences between the 520 and 600, and if either of them have powered zoom/focus?

"Fill factor improvements are remarkable...the reported similarity in picture 'smoothness' by associates who own DLP units and have seen the 600 in action was the cats meow."

This is great news, but I wonder how they did it with only a 20% increase in fill factor.

Maybe MLA in addition to the new panels (I forget if the 500had MLA or not)?

frank456
Please ask about the built in cinema filter that was in tw200 and tw500. I hope this is still in the tw600 anything else is not a smart move. The projector will be tamed down with eco mode, theatre mode with cinema filter engaged. For tw500 theatre optimized the lumens were more than halved.

Some proof of life:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v139/mayorgrubert/tw600.jpg

Thanks to Alain (ALBO) from homecinema-fr for posting it.

You know Benq 7700 and Benq 7800. Benq 7700 is the higher end unit. That is why tw600 could be a lower end unit. As someone pointed out tw600 has a manual zoom. I missed that. That is a sign of a lower end unit.

I do not believe in a projector below tw600. I can actually believe in a tw520 being above tw600.
Agree. Although the numbers are confusing I would not be suprised if the tw520 is specified with higher contrast (~10000:1 ala HS60?), lower ANSI lumens, excellent D65-tracking ala tw500 and uses cinefilter and powered zoom/focus.

We deserve the cinema filter in all Epson home theater projectors. In my mind the internal cinema filter is a competitive advantage so why ever remove it in any ht product?

I can see tw520 competing abit up in the price ladder with extra performance such as 7500-9000:1 cr and perhaps two digital inputs.

Would it also be worth noting that the newer crop of projectors do not need such good deinterlacers anymore? Perhaps not this generation, but in the future when HD has been widely adopted (OTA/cable/satellite/dvd) will there be much need for a deinterlacer at all if the source is outputting 720p or 1080p?

If an LCD with an MSRP of under 3K can compete THIS YEAR with the
Sharp 12000, then it seems to me that even without the
jump to the higher resolution chips there will be a bit of a mini
revolution in the projector market. The justification for spending
2 to 3 times more for a single chip DLP may not be there unless
similar gains are made on the new DLP models. However, it would seem
that the single chip DLP's have much less room for real-world improvement.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Regards

Looks like we don't have to wait for CEDIA for more info on this. Epson is introducing new HT projectors at IFA in Germany, it starts in two days. :)

This is great news, but I wonder how they did it with only a 20% increase in fill factor.

Maybe MLA in addition to the new panels (I forget if the 500had MLA or not)?

The TW500 did have MLA.

If an LCD with an MSRP of under 3K can compete THIS YEAR with the
Sharp 12000, then it seems to me that even without the
jump to the higher resolution chips there will be a bit of a mini
revolution in the projector market. The justification for spending
2 to 3 times more for a single chip DLP may not be there unless
similar gains are made on the new DLP models.

The Optoma H78DC3 should compete very well with the 12k (they each have their strengths) at under $4k and the 12k pricing is really due for a readjustment soon. The pricing for new 12ks hasn't dropped a lot in 20 months, but prices of other things have been changing. Refurbished 12ks have also been going for under $4k. But, if an LCD can match, come very close or even exceed these for under $3k, then I agree that this would be significant. If they are $3k and don't match the H78DC3 for under $4k, then I don't think it would be all that significant though.

--Darin

For rainbowinsensitive I believe a h78dcr will win the fight with a tw600, but tw600 sounds like a nice step up for lcd.

I would also expect the TW600 to be quite a bit brighter and be better calibrated out of hte box than the H78DC3.

The only issue I am seeing right now is that the chassis looks like it took the TW20 as the base design, not the TW500. The lens assembly looks almost silly now! :(

I would be willing to give up the high build quality of my Cinema 500 if the specs for the TW600 are realistic.

Now if tw600 looks more like a tw200 we can build arguments for the tw520 being the better projector.
I am anxiously awaiting an answer to my cinema filter question.

Hello,

Does anybody know if the throw distance is the same as the 500??

rmlowz

It will be interesting to see what Yamaha does with their version, assuming they don't abandon this segment as too competitive.

Hopefuklly they'll stay in with a full-featured model with powered optics, excellent video processing, etc., but hopefully at something like $4K MSRP rather than $5.5K.

Is it just me or does the TW600 pic look like a sculpted AE900? Particularly the lens, the front vent and the location of the controls. It looks far less than its predecessors thats for sure, other than being white. If it is from the same manufacturer as Panasonic, at least it doesn't have the lens shift control stick.

Darin,
I guess my real question is what will be the difference between the
top of the single chip DLP market on the next generation models and the top
end of the current crop. In particular, will we see a marked improvement at this
price point or a large price drop. If not then for many the price gap will not be
justified if much cheaper LCD's and more modestly priced DLP's start to approach the top end of the previous generation. The jump from 3-4K$ up to 10-12K$
is significant for most people.

By the way, is it my imagination or does the new TW600 look quite a bit smaller than the Cinema 500?

Regards

Back from another day of projector madness at the shop. :( Just to report back on un- answered questions.

I had a little over a half hour to ask a days worth of questions at lunchtime with a salesman who was over in japan 3 weeks ago. Being a hometheater nut himself really made me pay attention to what I was being told.

The tw600 will have the 'cinema filter' as the previous models did.

The contrast ratio numbers are 3000-1 without optical iris enhancement and 'up to' 7500-1 with iris enhancement. This is AMAZING for LCD. It was explained to me that the largest single reason for the higher contrast ratio increases was the panels themselves (D5) have virtually no light leakage within the substructure. This light leakage between the panels was the single main reason for the dreaded screen door effect on the older lcd models and the much lower contrast ratios. It was not that the spacing between the pixels was too large but that 'stray light' between the substrate and the pixel shielding layer made the spacing more visible on the projected image. Substantially reduced light leakage within the panel means 2 huge benefits: Dramatic contrast ratio improvements and screen door elimination. Since projected images are the result of light transmitted through the panels, the control of this light is the one major factor in the ever increasing performance of LCD. I was told that when the technology to 'TOTALLY' isolate each pixel from stray light from neighboring pixels become a reality, that panel contrast ratios will exceed anything available today, even CRT.

The 'fill factor' improvements are not from the 'mechanical' method of closing the gap between the pixels but from the control of light between them.

Will DLP advance in the design of there chips at a fast enough rate to keep there performance in step with the ever advancing LCD technological storm? Well I belive that the present DMD designs have only minor possible improvements before a complete re-design will be nessesary. After all, you can only tilt the mirrors so much before mechanical arc limitations take over. So contrast ratio improvements 'before' iris enhancement will be questionable.

D5 'response time' is greatly improved. 'After images' disappear almost instantly resulting in a sharper image. After all, the static images from a previous image would contaminate the fresh image ( kind of like a crt device with a different refresh rate) and produce substandard picture quality.

If some one wants more info on the response time benefits then let me know!

Before I ended the conversation, the subject of dust and the related projected image annoyances was talked about and this is what was mentioned:

The new D5 panel has an extra glass layer positioned out of the 'FOCAL PLANE" so that when dust lands on the panel itself, you will not see any problems because of it on the screen.





Contrast ratio enhancing features of the D5 panel:

Liquid crystal layer thickness reduction
flatter and clearer glass 'sandwich' layers
driver 'ICs' directly imbedded directly onto the panel grid

Think of it as a higher quality blind system which just blocks out more light, and more efficiently.

Martin ( co-worker) told me that it would not be fair of him to comment on the differences between the 600 and the 520 until he had a chance to compare them both in a proper hometheater environment. But judging what the specs are and what he saw briefly during the demo, it looks like it will not be a close race at all.

I will get more info about the actual features on this projector tomorrow. ;)

Hmm... that is one ugly looking projector!

regards,

Li On

I personally do not think the epson would win any beauty pagents myself, but in a dark theater room I could at least hide from it. :D

It was explained to me that the largest single reason for the higher contrast ratio increases was the panels themselves (D5) have virtually no light leakage within the substructure. This light leakage between the panels was the single main reason for the dreaded screen door effect on the older lcd models and the much lower contrast ratios. It was not that the spacing between the pixels was too large but that 'stray light' between the substrate and the pixel shielding layer made the spacing more visible on the projected image.

If this is indeed as claimed, then it will be interesting to learn why the figures claimed by the new Panasonic and the Sanyo are lower as I'm assuming these are achieving their CR with DI. I would think that if it is stray light at the panel level then Sanyo and Panasonic should be able to achieve similar results.

Also if SDE amelioration is a result of similar light control rather than the inherent panel structure, it will be interesting to see if Panasonic maintains its smoothscreen technology.

ted

This is just a guess Ted, but I think Epson saves all the really good panels for themselves.

'Smooth screen' technology from panasonic sure does have an effect on the sharpness of the final projected image. Maybe it will not be nessesary to even have it if the claimed performance from the new panels is acurate.

Future professional reviewers will definetly have some opinions once the products get released over here in north america.

Since epson themselves actually make the panels, It would be safe to say that maybe their own models of projectors would get the 'cream of the crop'.

If this is indeed as claimed, then it will be interesting to learn why the figures claimed by the new Panasonic and the Sanyo are lower as I'm assuming these are achieving their CR with DI. I would think that if it is stray light at the panel level then Sanyo and Panasonic should be able to achieve similar results.

ted

The internal colour filter of the Epson projectors permits optomization of CR to a degree not possible with projectors that do not include a colour filter (unless a xenon lamp is used). You can read all about this on the Enhanced Home Theater website (check out the tutorial on the Smart calibration system).

The internal colour filter of the Epson projectors permits optomization of CR to a degree not possible with projectors that do not include a colour filter (unless a xenon lamp is used). .

Scott,
I understand this well, have a filter optimised 700 with Smart, and have argued more than once in favour of filter usage with those who believe it to be black magic, but that is not what the salesman that frank456 referred to, was speaking of.

ted

I feel very fortunate to be among some very talented people who are directly involved in the technology and manufacturing end of the LCD projector industry.

I kind of feel a little inferior when they walk in to the shop with a 90 page technical manual outlining the basic (in there opinion) operating principals of a single circuit board from a select projector manufacturer. Oh boy, I feel stressed already and tommorow is not even here yet. :D

I assume that the Epson 600 is going to make my existing panny 700 look quite tame by comparison standards.

Frank - A few questions to ask, if you would:
1) What are the major feature differences between the 520 and the 600?
2) What processing option(s) does Epson use (e.g., Faroudja, Silicon Image, Pixelworks, mix)?
3) When is the 1080p version? ;)

Later,
Bill

I wrote down your questions so I can ask tomorrow. I have some ideas but I would like to get acurate information from people who really know. ;)

Frank,

A really important question:

Is there anything about the D5 technology or its implementation that would address the vertical banding problem exhibited by the D4 pj's?

Thanks

Edit:

I guess the answer is, not completely.

From the Cinema4Home Tests Sanyo Z4 thread:

A quote from the test: "Also with the newest D5-Generation remains vertical Banding a topic: The pilot lot equipment exhibited still another certain banding, which could be reduced however with Hiilfe of the VB menu to a very good measure."

Maybe it can be adjusted to minor levels, and perhaps the Epsons use cherry-picked panels.

Frank,
Can you ask, or if anyone knows, if these models are using crystal clear fine2? Earlier reports indicated that this won't be commercially ready until next year. This is where the inorganic layer comes into play, and 5 times the contrast (they say).

C2Fine is not used in these Epsons. We should see C2Fine begin to be used in products next year at which point another significant jump in performance (CR, light efficiency, fill factor) can be expected.

Hmm... that is one ugly looking projector!

regards,

Li On

Yeah and the projector casing is the most important thing when it comes to buying one. :rolleyes:

C2Fine is not used in these Epsons. We should see C2Fine begin to be used in products next year at which point another significant jump in performance (CR, light efficiency, fill factor) can be expected.

So next year they will be selling cheap LCD projectors with 2000 lumens, a 10,000 to 1 contrast ratio, and even greater fill factor?

As they say, anything you can buy today is already obsolete!

IB

^ Does obsolete mean not top of the line? I don't think so, my 2 year old unit is still getting the job done every time I ask it, hence it is not obsolete. But next years models sound great already!

^ Does obsolete mean not top of the line?
In the context that it is used here, obsolete means that the images look just the same as they did when you bought it (maybe better because of better sources), but that you know in your heart that someone buying at that point can get better images for the same amount of money that you paid to be able to enjoy it for the whole time in between. :)

In other words, it is horrible that they keep making these projectors better for the same price and they should be stoned. Just imagine how horrible it would be if computers kept getting improvements every year. :)

--Darin

Hello,

I found out from a reliable source that the replacement for the Epson 500 will be called the Pro 800 and the replacement for the Epson 200 will be called the Pro 550. My guess is they are the same product as the 520 and 600 overseas. I believe that the 800 will be no less than $5,000.00 Like Ursa said, a few threads back the retail on the 500 is now $4,000.00. Just my opinion. I hope I am wrong on the 800 price.

rmlowz
I am confused here. Is this what you are saying

Epson 500 -> upgrade Pro 800 called tw600 in Europe
Epson 200 -> upgrade Pro 550 called tw520 in Europe

Is it like above or the other way around.

inky blacks
I do not belive we will se 10000:1 from Crystal clear fine. They claim many times (5) the contrast of lcd. What base lcd to take? It is reasonably fair to use 1000:1 with the z4 with D5 got 1100 at D65 I believe.

On the other hand we have the report about tw600 boasting 3000:1 with static iris. This without reference to any calibrated state but still a very high contrast. This is surely thanks to the cinema filter. It could also be that Epson has juiced up their own D5s with some C2 fine technology to block more light. 3000:1 still sounds high. I would not have doubted 2000:1.

Hello Ohlson,

Yes that is correct. My source told me the USA part numbers. I am guessing like I said in my post that it is probably the same as overseas 520 and 600

So you are saying the Pro 800 and tw600 are the higher end models right?

Hello Ohlson,

Yes, I was told the replacement for the 500 is the Pro 800

Questions asked: Responses are not from my input but from the 'new products sales division'. The company is a service and repair corp. for many manufacturers (not just epson).

Will 1080p be coming soon?

Yes! The panel manufacturing infrastructure is already in place with prototypes already manufactured. From what I was told, it will still be a while before 1080p LCD projectors hit the north american market. But they are coming. :eek:

Is faroudja processing still going to be used in this years epson projectors?

Yes! The previous processing used in the most recent models are still slated to use faroudja. BUT...as previously seen by our repair network, this is never in stone as we have seen deviations from the norm in some cases. How do we know? Well a quick look inside some units that have been worked on have been surprises. :confused:

Will existing models from epson have the C-2 fine technology?

No, not this early in the production schedule. There are prototype projectors which have shown how the picture quality will look like but they are not in finished cabinets. The projectors are 'board types' which means that all the parts and circuitry are arranged in production display boxes so that an image 'exactly' what a finished projector would look like can be displayed on a test screen. C-2 fine from reports is that 'last' hurdle LCD will need to push the HD images well over existing single chip DLP models out right now at the present time. Contrast ratios and color reproduction is right off the charts compared to LCD from 3 years ago.

Sanyo's Z4 has already been criticized by a recent review that it has 'vertical banding' issues. Is this possible?

Verical banding was non existent on the Z3 and this was a major advantage over the Panasonic PT-AE 700U from almost every reviewer and forum this side of the globe. How is it that now all of a sudden there is vertical banding? We never seen this on the Z3 in our shop and the sales department verified this as the same results. Maybe there is a little B.S.going on since the Z4 is the first out of the gate that could be reviewed, even though we will have to wait for other info. from credible sources. :confused: D5 Z4 being worse in this area is very hard for me to believe, but we will see won't we? After all, there could be some merit to this issue.

Single panel 'full field' performance which we do to measure a panels total 'light spread' has never revealed a banding problem. Banding is a 'multi panel' issue as the 3 LCD components must work together to project the final picture element. Panel alignment from what I have seen in full production models is not great on massed produced projectors. Come on 'Japan' and get with the program. :D

Differences between the 520 and 600 models?

Still have to see a specific person to know for sure. Was not here today but will be in next tuesday and he will know 'exactly' what the differences are as this is a marketing field question.

Hello,

I found out from a reliable source that the replacement for the Epson 500 will be called the Pro 800 and the replacement for the Epson 200 will be called the Pro 550. My guess is they are the same product as the 520 and 600 overseas. I believe that the 800 will be no less than $5,000.00 Like Ursa said, a few threads back the retail on the 500 is now $4,000.00. Just my opinion. I hope I am wrong on the 800 price.

Rob - I don't think a $5K price will be sustainable for 720p LCD with 720p DLP dropping below $2K on the street in the near future. This is especially true if Sony does release an upgrade to the HS51 that specs similar performance as the TW600 with a MSRP <$3k.

Frank - Thanks for being our mole. It may be time to bug Rajiv Mishra on this since Epson is theoretically launching in Germany tomorrow.

Mattias - Are you up for a quick trip down to Berlin? ;)

Personally, if Sony is bringing an SXRD projector in at $10k - $12K at 1080p, I would expect LCD to sustain no more than $5k (it would just fail head-to-head at a similar price point). Of course, some of that is wishful thinking, since I would cut a check for $5K today for a 1080p Epson, sight unseen.

Later,
Bill

Frank,

"Will existing models from epson have the C-2 fine technology?

No, not this early in the production schedule...."

That sounds like it might mean that C-2 Fine could be a running productioin change rather than a new model.

Could you ask about that? It'd be nice not to have to wait another whole year for it.

Thanks!

I know that you have to take these kind of claims with a grain of
salt but if the depiction of C2Fine in the press release is at all accurate

http://www.epson.co.jp/e/newsroom/2005/news_2005_05_24.htm

then those of us who cannot consider 1 chip dlp are in for a treat
when this comes on board with the D5 chip. If the price of bulbs
was not such a factor I would replace all of my TV's with fp's.

Regards

Sanyo's Z4 has already been criticized by a recent review that it has 'vertical banding' issues. Is this possible?

That's a bit of an exaggeration. Although the review was in Swedish, from what I was able to decipher from babelfish it said there was some vertical banding, although less than the Z3. And it could be eliminated through a VB specific adjustment menu. Also, the reviewer stressed that he was using a pre-production unit, and any problems encountered may be non-existent in first run production units.

Although I don't own one, from what I have read from Z3 users, VB isn't much of an issue unlike the panny. So it is my belief based on that review, that VB won't be an issue in the Z4 either.

The las vegas exhibition as expected will be the rear projection version. This is not surprising as the largest display segment for sales in north america is flat panel displays. The demonstration in japan could be both rear projection and front projection but this is still up in the air.

This kind of upholds what I was told that the immediate run of front projectors will be without the C-2 fine technology. But it is near and we will see it in front projection sooner than we think.

Noah: The only thing that worries me is that if the production run starts off without the C-2 fine enhancement this year for the 600 then it 'might' be next year for the issue. Hopefully this is not the case as we have seen mid production changes once the 'parts' are available. :(

I am not a DLP basher as I have owned them in the past, but LCD front projection with D5 C-2 fine technology in my opinion will exceed the performance any current DLP single chip unit. This of course is dependant on high quality optics to round out the package. ;)

I am not a DLP basher as I have owned them in the past, but LCD front projection with D5 C-2 fine technology in my opinion will exceed the performance any current DLP single chip unit. This of course is dependant on high quality optics to round out the package. ;)

Well, it's still too early to tell which will outperform which. LCD camp has been putting a lot of resources in improving LCD weakness, namely VB, dust, low contrast, color uniformity, SDE, ... etc. And they have some good successes, especially in contrast raito, via auto IRIS. Panasonic has smoothscreen technology to difuse the SDE, VB can be controlled and fine tuned now. But I still havn't seen any claim to improve the true black level and ANSI contrast. Althought Sony's BI:NA and Epson C2Fine is an attempt to use isorganic layers and with an aim to get true black level, but we have not seen any concrete claim from Sony/Epson on the ANSI contrast yet.

Until we see LCD runs over DLP in both the black level, peak and ANSI contrast, will we be able to say which will out form others. So, I would be conservative in the new LCD technology. Seeing is believing. Sony/Epson makes some run on their technology, TI will be doing the same advancement, too. So, it's still too early to throw in the white towel.

News from an Australian site:

The EMP-TW600 has a contrast ratio of 5000:1, 1600 lumens brightness, lens shift, and also includes an HDMI input. The EMP-TW600 is expected to retail at half the original list price of its predecessor, the TW500, at around $2999 [Australian], but no pricing has yet been set. Its due in October 2005.

Following that logic, US MSRP should be around $2500 (half the MSRP of the Epson Powerlite Cinema 500).

Oh, and there's a picture:

http://news.smarthouse.com.au/images/shared/200509011038135437d_400x160.jpg

Link (http://www.smarthouse.com.au/Entertainment/Projectors/?article=/Entertainment/Projectors/News/N6N8G6T7)

OK - now that is GREAT news!!! Also, the pic doesn't look so bad anymore either. No resemblance to the Panny at all from that angle. $2999 Australian translates to approx. $2700 CDN so when you top off the destination charge, higher shipping charges etc. we might actually see this at an MSRP of $2999 CDN. :)

Hello,

I think Epson here in the states will not release the new 500 replacement until they are out of stock on the 500.

rmlowz

It is positive that Epson seem to engage Panasonic, Sanyo and Hitachi in a 720p fight. Epson is also coming with an all in one product as well as an entry product. This time they are saving a 1080p model for the high end. That is wise in my opinion.

Here is some information from www.grobi.tv. It appears that they will also use an Automatic Iris, but that folding color filter is interesting...

***


First information to the EPSON powerplant 600 the first information is present us.

Dissolution: 1280 x of 720 pixels LCD technology - D5 panel generation

Brightness: MAX 1600 ANSI of lumen

Probably "BRIGHTNESS" becomes the lamp brightness of approx. also here with the function. 800 - 1600 ANSI lumens adjustable iris. This function is offered already successfully in the 200er and 500er versions.

Contrast: up to 5000:1

Lamp running time: up to 3.000 hours

Manual zoom shot: F 2,1 - 2.8

Automatic IRIS function

Horizontal and vertical LensShift

HDMI entrance

Weight: 5,2 kg

The projector will have a new housing Design. The successful concept that inside the projector a special color filter is integrated, which can be folded automatically into the optical path became also here maintained. Thus we are sure that the powerplants 600 a worthy successor of the two powerplants 200h and powerplant becomes 500 models.

The availability is announced for at the end of of Septembers. Further information follows shortly.

frank456
Could you dig a bit further into C-2 fine.
1 When can I expect the first C2 fine front projector to be ready?
2 Will C2 fine affect pricing much? From what I have read C2 fine surely would allow Epson to charge more with higher contrast and life time issues resolved.

3 I am also thinking about the high contrast you reported with 3000:1 without automatic iris. Can you confirm if Epson has better panels than Sanyo and the rest. If not the high contrast is difficult to believe.

4 With regard to SDE it sounds like Epson is doing something optically to reduce SDE. Is this so? Panasonic has done this for a long time so it would not be a big surprise. However it is a difficult balance act to get it right.

If C2 fine is more than 6 months away and cost 30-50 percent more it is not for me. Can you PM an advice for me and I would be truly thankfull.

Ohlson,
I can't imagine that Epson would keep the better LCD panels for themselves. This would require testing and hand picking of individual panels which would be very time consuming. I also doubt that there would be much variation between individual panels. I think the high contrast of the Epson is quite believable. The Cinema 500 had similar or higher contrast than the AE700 and Z3 which used a DI and/or lamp modulation techniques. Depending on the type of lamp used, a colour filter can increase contrast very significantly (i.e. 2x). Cine4Home found this to be the case with the AE700. In addition, Epson may be using a higher power lamp which allows them to use optics which provide a higher contrast while still offering equivalent or better light output as compared to the Z4 or AE900.

Epson EMP-TW600

That fits!

Berlin, IFA, September 2005. The High end Surround plant is select or already installed, which is still missing now, is the correct projector for the large cinema experience at home. The top device should have, sufficient luminous intensity have a high contrast relationship and be equipped with the best projection technology! Is that enough? How would it be with a special cinema filter? A genuine 16:9 format? Top dissolution? Future-safe connections? "mobile ones" of objectives for ideal adjustment? And all this in equipment? Feasiblly! The new Epson EMP-TW600 offers everything for the highest Sehgenuss. Eyes carefully by the 3LCD-Technologie and eye pasture by pleasing Design. The correct "partner" for the ultimative home cinema is available starting from September 2005 at a price of 1.999, - euro * in the trade.

That the Epson EMP-TW600 is ready for the future, he shows thanks all digital HDMI entrance with the seal hp ready **. and a dissolution of 720 pixels, which guarantee the rendition in "High Definition" quality, digital morning with Epsons the Topmodell takes place already today. Besides the Epson EMP-TW600 is extremely flexible, without being received thereby compromises: Filters it guarantees preset color modes that for each environment an adequate configuration is present. In bright rooms for example "dynamic the mode" provides, in darkened areas "Theatre Black" for the correct picture. And owing to car iris Optical system, which steers the light intensity of the lamp, contrast rates of 5.000:1 are possible. Thus clear colors and finest grey gradations become the matter of course. Using the new 135W e-TORL-lamp *** is made available a luminous intensity by up to 1.600 ANSI lumens. Thus stands to an optical treat nothing more in the way.

Nevertheless once if something should stand in the way, then the Lens SHIFT function ensures for the fact that the setting up place can be more variable selected. Height and fifty-per cent side correction it make a hundred percent the question, where the Epson EMP-TW600 is to stand, to the agony of the choice! And also if the proverbial large cinema in a relatively small hall is to take place, the High end projector is prepared. Already from a distance of 2,5 m a picture diagonal of 160 cm can be obtained.
Naturally EMP-TW600 Epsons proven 3LCD-Technologie of the new D5 series is used also in the Epson. It provides for a large color area and preserves the eyes of the viewer with a steady, flicker-free picture.

"the EMP-TW600 is the to time best home cinema projector from the house Epson", like that Rainer van de Weyer, Senior product manager Visual of instrument with the Epson Germany GmbH. "outstanding features make it the State OF the kind equipment for all those, which are good the best straight enough. One must have seen the sharp pictures and alive colors, which he projects, simple with own eyes. It supplies a so realistic cinema pleasure that one would like to touch its canvas hero lightly nearly, around an autograph to get!"

The Epson EMP-TW600 in the overview:
High end projector for home-cinema-inspired
D5 3LCD-Technologie for brighter pictures, higher farbtreue and better grey rendition
Brightness of 1.600 ANSI lumens owing to 135 W e-TORL-lamp (Epson twin Optimized Reflection Lamp)
High image quality with a resolution of 1.280 by 720 pixels
Iris function make a contrast rate of 5.000:1
HDMI -, video -, YUV s-video -, RGB- and Scart connection
Exclusive Cinema filter technology for improved image quality
Filters perfect rendition in each brightness environment guarantee color modes (dynamic, Living Room, sRGB, Natural, Theatre, Theatre Black 1, Theatre Black 2)
Horizontal as well as vertical Lens SHIFT function
10 bits color processor for high detail loyalty and softer transitions
Genuine 16:9 rendition for authentic home cinema feeling
Automatic formateinstellung
Lit up remote maintenance
1-1,5 optical zoom shot
Available starting from September 2005
Price: 1.999, - euro inclusive VAT.

(Original link: http://epson-presse.grintsch-online.com/index.php?id=29&backPID=29&tt_news=1220)

Looks like a winner to me! ?1999,- Can't wait to see it in action!

NilsP

Looks like a winner to me! ?1999,- Can't wait to see it in action!

Without seeing any of these and just reading, this looks like the frontrunner of the new crop to me so far. It has 10 bit processing vs 12 bit in the Z4, but if the filter is able to go in and out of the light path then this is an advantage of the TW600. And we'll have to see how they do compared to their specs. The Z4 has the holes for dust, but it sounds like Epson tried to address dust here with a layer away from the panels (outside the focal point). It would also be interesting to know if it has MLA for less SDE, but hopefully some of us can look up close at CEDIA and see how the fill factor looks. I also hope Epson has made some progress with VB.

It does look like they have layed down the guantlet and are really going to compete head-to-head with other companies using their panels for volumes this time. Can't wait to hear when there will be a 1080p version (for more money of course).

--Darin

If Epson doesnt screwed badly with TW600 then at price of 2000 Euro it will dominate Z4/AE900/TX200.

Yes, this pj is sounding really nice.

Interesting that they claim 1600 L from the 135 W e-TORL-lamp (Epson twin Optimised Reflection Lamp), whereas the 500 was 1000 L from a 200W UHE lamp.

That's 2.4X the light efficiency, which seems like groundbreaking news on its own. I'm surprised they don't make a bigger deal of it.

Imagine combining this with Canon's SX50 light engine design, although perhaps Epson's reflector accomplishes the same thing in a different way.

Tried to dig up something on the E-TORL lamp. These are quotes from the EMP-S3 projector. Wonder if it also applies to the 600? Good thing if it does!

"New design "E-TORL" lamp which is smaller, more efficient and above all cheaper than the other manufacturers lamps by up to 50%."

"...a newly designed compact Epson E-TORL lamp, which eliminates light leakage and minimises diffraction by combining an ellipsoidal reflector with an aspherical lens and hemispherical mirror, for efficient light projection..."

"The E-TORL lamp also gives a quick 5 second start up time and an instant shutdown at the push of a single button, eliminating waiting time and the possibility of lamp damage."

The shutdown part has to do with a battery in the S3, but a quick startup would be nice!

Half price? Well, time will tell, but the replacement bulb for the old 500 is £270 on the web. For the S3 it is £120. Could it be? We won't know until the replacement bulb price is released, but hey, the TW600 just moved to the top of my list! :)

As was mentioned above, is the Euro 1,999 price a preparation for the 1080 model? Euro 3,999? It could happen! (Though not very likely....)

NilsP

More pictures from Grobi: http://www.grobi.tv/opencms/seiten/neuigkeiten/Inhalte/tw600.html

NilsP

nilsp
It would be nice with viewing experiences with this model. Do we know if they project at IFA or are just displayed.

Thanks for the lamp info, NilsP.

The 600 is now at the top of my list, too.

Go to Epson Germany and read all about the new projectors.
tw20
tw520
tw600
The two first specified MLA so I assume stays with MLA. It is the top model after all. Tw600 has 170w bulb compared with tw520 that has 135w.

Mattias,

"Go to Epson Germany and read all about the new projectors."

Could you post a link to the 600? It's not under Products and I couldn't find it with the IFAS info (bit I gave up pretty quick as I don't know German).

Thanks

Well, Ohlson, I would hope they are showing it off... Check http://www.grintsch.com/ifa/ for a rather tacky invitation to their stand. Doesn't say specifically that you can experience the new projectors, but it would be odd only to show the box after such an invitation...

NilsP

Man, assuming the price is the equiv here to the Euro (after conversion) and the 600's stats are accurate like the Cinema 500s as well as build quality then I am all over this pj because it sounds like it'll be a steal for its price.

Hmm, based on its weight it is 1 kg less (2.2 pounds for you metric challenged Yanks) than the Cinema 500. Interesting

noah katz
For your reading pleasure
http://epson-presse.grintsch-online.com/index.php?id=29

rlindo
You get what you pay for to some extent. I am sure some build quality is lost to reduce the price. I saw no mentioning of Faroudja or other processing. The processing was 10 bit. I think Epson has done a good job to find a balance between features and price.

For a 1080p model they can add better processing and extra features.

Thanks, Mattias!

Does anyone know how to translate an Acrobat document (the linked spec sheet is in German; I tried cutting and pasting but the translation failed)?

What I'm trying to determine is the minimum throw ratio. The screen distance picture seems to only show it zoomed out.

Thanks

I would like to know if it uses the latest HDMI standard?

Ohlson: yes, I can pm you when I talk to a representative on the upcoming tuesday. We are having a statutory holiday on monday here in canada so I will not be going in to work till then.

I feel good that the recent information I received from our sales staff on the inclusion of a cinema color filter was acurate. I belive I had mentioned this before.

C-2 fine is already in 'display' products for all major trade shows. Our staff over 1 month earlier seen 'board' samples in japan.

I am so excited by the recent developments. The 600 is in my opinion the 'king' of lcd front projection.

But we will be in for much more once C-2 fine comes into play. ;)

Faroudja processing is the system in the 600. The same processing has been carried over from the 200 and 500. Even the optics and any adjustable features.

The german web site even confirms this. Erik, our 'man in the front' speaks german and translated everything and I mean everything.

See you all on tuesday. :D

Faroudja processing is the system in the 600. The same processing has been carried over from the 200 and 500. Even the optics and any adjustable features.
Can the Faroudja be bypassed if we feed it a native resolution? For those who will be using an external video processor, will a less expensive version of the TW600 be available without the Faroudja chip? Can the TW600 accept 48Hz and 50Hz signals?

Not sure of this has been posted ...

MEERBUSCH, Germany, Sept. 2, 2005 - The high end surround system has been selected or is already installed - yet the right projector for stunning cinema experience at home is missing. The high end system should feature high contrast ratio, sufficient brightness and the best projection technology! Is this enough? What about a special cinema filter? A real 16:9 format? Perfect resolution? Future-proof connectivity? "Moving" lenses for perfect alignment? All this in one system? Of course! The new Epson EMP-TW600 provides highest viewing pleasure. Easy-on-the-eye through 3LCD technology and an appealing design. The right "partner" for the ultimate home cinema is available in shops priced EUR 1,999* as of September 2005.

The HD ready** label demonstrates that the Epson EMP-TW600 is ready for the future. Thanks to the fully digital HDMI input and a resolution of 720 pixels ensuring "High Definition" reproduction, the digital "tomorrow" already takes place today with the Epson top-of-the-range model. Moreover, the Epson EMP-TW600 is extremely flexible without compromises. Seven pre-defined colour modes ensure adequate configuration for every environment. The "Dynamic Mode" provides the right image in bright and "Theatre Black" in dark rooms. The Auto Iris Optical System controlling light intensity of the lamp enables contrast ratios of 5,000:1. Thus, clear colours and detailed grey scale gradation are taken for granted. Using the new 135W E-TORL lamp*** brightness of up to 1,600 ANSI lumens is provided. Hence, optical special treats are now possible.

The lens shift function provides the perfect solution for more variable installation sites. The choice is yours where to place the Epson EMP-TW600 considering a hundred per cent height and a fifty per cent side correction. The high end projector is equipped in case the so-called great cinema takes places in a relatively small room. A diagonal image of 160 cm can be achieved from a distance of 2.5 m.

The Epson EMP-TW600 also features the proven 3LCD technology of the new D5 series. It ensures a broad colour range and is easy-on-the-eye providing a consistent, flicker-free image.

"The EMP-TW600 is currently Epson's best home cinema projector", says Rainer van de Weyer, Senior Product Manager Visual Instruments at Epson Deutschland GmbH. "Outstanding features ensure that the state-of-the-art device is optimal for all striving for the best. A viewing experience of the crystal clear images and the vibrant colours projected is a must. It provides the big screen experience in such a realistic manner that one is tempted to touch the shoulder of the movie star and ask for an autograph.

EMP-TW600 - Key features

High End projector for home cinema enthusiasts
3LCD technology for brighter images, higher colour accuracy and improved grey reproduction
Brightness of 1,600 ANSI lumens thanks to 135 W E-TORL lamp (Epson Twin Optimized Reflection Lamp)
High image quality with a resolution of 1,280 x 720 pixels
Auto Iris function enables contrast ratio of 5,000:1
HDMI, video, YUV S video, RGB and Scart interface
Exclusive Cinema Filter technology for improved image quality
Seven colour modes (Dynamic, Living Room, sRGB, Natural, Theatre, Theatre Black 1, Theatre Black 2) ensure perfect reproduction irrespective of light conditions
Horizontal as well as vertical lens shift function
10 bit colour processor for greater definition and softer transition
Realistic 16:9 reproduction for genuine home cinema feeling
Automatic format settings
Backlit remote
1-1.5 optical zoom
Available as of September 2005
Priced: EUR 1,999* incl. VAT

* recommended retail price including VAT.

** the HD ready label was introduced by EICTA (http://www.eicta.org) to distinguish HD signal compatible products

*** Epson Twin Optimized Reflection Lamp

Source
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/158736.html

Not sure of this has been posted ...




It was posted, just not translated so well.... ;)


The new Epson is indeed a very exciting projector and I might be tempted to toss my AE500 for this one.

Interesting times in the projector world...

If memory serves the old TW500 had a retail price of 4500,- € last years summer in Germany, and this year it was I think ~3600,-. With the TW600 so much cheaper and (hopefully) improved in all aspects(?) it makes me wonder if and what they will launch in the >3.5k territory... With the top of the line 720p HT machine below 2k€ a 1080p 5k€ HT projector would make sense...

If you look at the input panel of the TW600 and TW500 you will notice that they left only one component and no more RGBHV input. VGA and D4 is still there. No more motorzoom and motorfocus, so that's one place where they made cuts...

Does anybody know if the unit will still have a Faroudja chip and DCDi? EDIT: No more Faroudja and DCDi.

Either the will launch a better D5 unit, probably 1080p around 5k or they will leave this segment for DLP, what do you think?

Here is my >3.5k (and < 4k) Epson PJ dream :
- 1080p D5,
- longer throw (the same as the PTAE700, Z4, PTAE900, TX200).

Otherwise, every feature of TW600 (brightness included), with the build quality of the TW500...

Hmmm... Nowhere do they mention what noiselevel it has... The TW500 was rated at 37db, hope they reduced it significantly.

NilsP

Documents are conflicting but my conclusion is that tw600 has a 170w bulb.

Tw500 but not tw200 had Faroudja

Faroudja is not in the specifications but who knows. It might still be in there for all I know.

It seems tw600 will be restricted to 50 and 60 Hertz. There is little hope for 48Hz. I base this on wording in spec sheets.

geez so wait, this only has a 1.5xzoom?

earlier people were saying it was 2x.. which is a feature i have to have for wher ei need to put my projector.. thats annoying.

guess this one isn't for me :(

If they really do cut the price of bulbs in half then that
would be the big news for me.

This has been the one point that has made most of the people
I know shy away from fp.

BTW I like the power zoom and power focus but I don't
see many people paying 2.5K US for these. If these
are the only real cost-cutting moves to bring the price
into the 2.K range, then with all of the other improvements
this will be tough to beat.

I can hardly wait for next year when C-2 Fine is thrown into the mix.
I have two more rooms just waiting for a fp.

Regards

The TW500 was actually pretty quiet - 27 dB in low power mode. It too also featured 1.5 zoom. Since the TW600 is an upgrade, I would expect these specs to remain similar or to actually be improved upon, especially noise output.

Sounds like a great projector. I would sure like to go out and pick one up somewhere or even order online, but it's not that simple. For example, in my area, there are no retailers for the Epsons except for a few custom installers who refuse to sell for less than retail. I contacted one about the Cinema 500 a few days ago and he said Epson hadn't reduced their msrp below 4999.00. He said he could let me have one for msrp, how generous.

Epson needs to loosen up their distribution channels if they want to sell more than a few of these new 600s. Yeah, I know I could wait for the new Yammy version, but they sell at list for the first few months and will probably be priced much higher than the Epson.

I would rather have an Epson but will probably end up with the Sanyo Z4 just because of lower pricing and better availability. Wake up Epson!

Same here regarding availability of Epson hometheater projectors in my area. Nothing.

One question on the MSRP. If the price of 1999 Euros includes VAT then is it possible that the list price for the US would be lower given that the value added tax isn't included?

geez so wait, this only has a 1.5xzoom?

earlier people were saying it was 2x.. which is a feature i have to have for wher ei need to put my projector.. thats annoying.

guess this one isn't for me :(
If that is really the zoom ratio then I think you might be confusing it with the throw range. If you are only going to put the projector in one spot and not move it then a zoom range ratio doesn't tell you whether it will work or not. For instance a 1.5x zoom could mean that the projector can go from 2x the screen width to 3x the screen width (a 1.5 ratio). It is a little bit confusing the way that the specs say 1-1.5 optical zoom, but my guess is that this will end up having a throw range of something closer to 1.4x to 2.1x, like the TW500.

--Darin

If that is really the zoom ratio then I think you might be confusing it with the throw range. If you are only going to put the projector in one spot and not move it then a zoom range ratio doesn't tell you whether it will work or not. For instance a 1.5x zoom could mean that the projector can go from 2x the screen width to 3x the screen width (a 1.5 ratio). It is a little bit confusing the way that the specs say 1-1.5 optical zoom, but my guess is that this will end up having a throw range of something closer to 1.4x to 2.1x, like the TW500.

--Darin


oh.. well i guess i'll have to wait and see then.. that's kinda confusing :p

Hmmm... Nowhere do they mention what noiselevel it has... The TW500 was rated at 37db, hope they reduced it significantly.

NilsP

The 500 is pretty quiet when not in max brightness mode. The 37dB rating can only be for when it is in the high lamp modes.

Patrick,

" I know I could wait for the new Yammy version"

Do you know for a fact that there will be one?

It wouldn't surprise me if Yamaha opts out because they wouldn't be able to get the premium prices anymore.

I am really looking forward to some reviews of an AVS member on this machine. Maybe it will be me?

I actually need to replace my G70 (crt) and might buy this ASAP. Was looking at the optoma 78....

Whats another month?

Same here regarding availability of Epson hometheater projectors in my area. Nothing.

One question on the MSRP. If the price of 1999 Euros includes VAT then is it possible that the list price for the US would be lower given that the value added tax isn't included?


Assuming 15% VAT using todays currency rate the projector would cost $2131 pre tax US. Maybe we will get lucky and it will have an MSRP of $2000 here in the US!

Assuming 15% VAT using todays currency rate the projector would cost $2131 pre tax US. Maybe we will get lucky and it will have an MSRP of $2000 here in the US!

I've been following threads on the "hottest" projefctors in the MSRP $3000-$5000, (with lower street prices) such as the Sony HS51, Optima H78, Benq 7700 et al, for some time now as I need to replace my Sony 10HT.

And I now have to admit to being brain washed a bit by the "pay more, get more" mentality although I fight it as best I can.

So what's wrong with this picture--the Epsom 600 is expected to have great picture, contrast ratio, blacks and color for a MSRP of just $2000.

What am I missing?

Shelly

So what's wrong with this picture--the Epsom 600 is expected to have great picture, contrast ratio, blacks and color for a MSRP of just $2000.

What am I missing?

Well for one thing, although unconfirmed officially, it can't display 24fps film sources without judder -- it can only sync with 50 and 60Hz video signals. :(

Well for one thing, although unconfirmed officially, it can't display 24fps film sources without judder -- it can only sync with 50 and 60Hz video signals. :(

this might be a total dumb newie question, but what will this affect? Sounds like a good projector for me, but i will be watching dvd's mainly. Maybe Xbox if I can sell the wife on the idea :rolleyes: and a little HDTV for games, superbowl, NBA, etc. Will this affect me?

Hi Shelly,

"So what's wrong with this picture--the Epsom 600 is expected to have great picture, contrast ratio, blacks and color for a MSRP of just $2000.

What am I missing?"

Hopefully nothing.

If we're lucky, it will have HS51 PQ but with a lot more brightness and for even less money.

The possible flys in the ointment are remnants of VB, and objectionable SD to people particularly sensitive to it.

Hi,

Faroudja processing is the system in the 600. The same processing has been carried over from the 200 and 500. Even the optics and any adjustable features.

Does anybody know if the unit will still have a Faroudja chip and DCDi? EDIT: No more Faroudja and DCDi.

i'm not sure i understand, the tw-600 has or has not the dcdi by Faroudja?

Thans in advance for your answer.

Well for one thing, although unconfirmed officially, it can't display 24fps film sources without judder -- it can only sync with 50 and 60Hz video signals. :(

George,

What's judder? And are dvd movies the 24 fps film sources, and if not, what are they?

Shelly

George,

What's judder? And are dvd movies the 24 fps film sources, and if not, what are they?

Shelly

I think he meant genlocked 48hz film source, i.e. 24fps displayed as 2:2:2:2... i.e. every frame repeated exactly twice. All displays do NTSC film dvd as 3:2:3:2.. in 60hz. Ability to do 48hz (or even better 72hz) is preferred, but not many PJs can do that even now. And u need an external video processor to provide a 48hz source. No dvdp now can do that.

I'm not familliar with the Epson line. If the older 500 can do 48hz, and the new 600 cannot, it does seem like a letdown.

I never tried 48Hz when I had my TW500, but in checking the user manual, 48Hz isn't listed as one of the supported refresh rates. My guess is that it recoded everything to the panel's native rates (50 or 60 Hz).

Hello all,

First post here but have read lots of info. Great forum!

I too am following the launch of the new lcd 720p beamers with great anticipation. Although DLP beamers have many advantages (and the difference in PQ between DLP and LCD is hard to ignore); rainbow artefacts are the deal breaker for me. On every single chip DLP model that I've come across I have spotted them (and found them annoying).

Found some official Epson press release on a Dutch website (it seems however that I am not allowed to post it, due to:
Your Post contains one or more URLs or image calls, please remove them before submitting your message again. To prevent the abuse of spam, we have set this restriction in place until after you make 5 posts

there seems to be no way around this, so I'll try something else.

http://www.dvd.nl/nieuws.php?id=1937

And here it is! :D Excuse me for the forum pollution
If some things need clarification/translation: let me know.

Does anybody know of a confirmed date when they will be available in the USA?
I am about ready to pull the plug on a HS51 unit but might be able to hold off 2 or 3 more weeks, but that s about it. My old 12HT unit is going out for repairs and have to have my TV and movies.

5: just one more
You know there is a test post forum, right? :rolleyes: Also, how about cleaning up the pollution like a good kid? :)

Does anybody know of a confirmed date when they will be available in the USA?
I am about ready to pull the plug on a HS51 unit but might be able to hold off 2 or 3 more weeks, but that s about it. My old 12HT unit is going out for repairs and have to have my TV and movies.

In that case, maybe you should also take a look at the HS60 which is being discussed in another thread. Sounds like Sony may also have a new panel. I guess the first details will be forthcoming in a couple of days. Although, I very much doubt that either the 60 or the new Epson will be available in 2 - 3 weeks. )-8

Jeff

Dude the moviemate on that link looks like a freaking xerox machine. I heard the new epson 520 and 600 were ugly... I think they look pretty cool. jeff

p.s. I think I read that the two new sony's will be available in nov then dec. vpl-hs61 in nov and the higher end sxrd (vpl-vw100) in dec.http://www.sony.jp/CorporateCruise/Press/200509/05-0906/

Found out some new information re: the TW600 and the TW520. Apparently, the main difference between the TW600 and the TW520 is that the TW520 uses the older D4 LCD panels which accounts for the contrast and brightness differences.

See this link for more info. The translation is pretty bad so I may have misunderstood :-(

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050904/ifa04.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Depson%2Btw600%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26hs%3D0Vj %26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN

So, still no certitude about the presence of the dcdi?

Hi

Thanks for that m@arkus .. I was wondering what the difference was, considering the small price differential (in Euros).

I wonder how this will play out given rmlowz posts a few pages ago predicting that this new projector won't be released in the U.S. until the stock of the current 500's is depleted. But who's gonna buy a projector using old-technology that costs 2x as much? Or is Epson willing to slash the current price by 1/2 and then just sit there and wait selling D4 when everbody else is selling D5. Seems unlikely...

Now if only I could find the throw on this thing .... hoping its a wee-bit-longer than the 500


ron

Apparently, the main difference between the TW600 and the TW520 is that the TW520 uses the older D4 LCD panels which accounts for the contrast and brightness differences.

If this means the new TW520 is my TW200H with digital in and better contrast, WITHOUT adding VB, then that's interesting!

regards,

Li On

Good morning Li On. Thanks for your demo last night n it has been a real eye opener on my first NON-VB lcd projector sighting. Hope to learn some more from you in the future.

From someone who saw the epson TW600 yesterday:

"I saw the epson TW600 in IFA at the epson stand in a reasonably darkened room.

The filerate is indeed a lot higher then my "old" Sanyo Z2.

Image was imo very good en very relaxed, no vertical banding whatsoever, what I cant say from my SAnyo.

What I saw was very pleasing.

They also had a while display of square projectors with build in DVD players (the epson TW20 with added DVD player and sound) That picture was a lot less, didnt give a lot of attention to that to say something usefull.

You know there is a test post forum, right? Also, how about cleaning up the pollution like a good kid? Again: sorry. Looks like someone beat me to the cleaning though. Thanks for that. And its funny: the test forum never got my attention. Somehow it wasn't as appealing as this section. :D

I'll try some more constructive posting in the future. The panny 900 will come my way very soon(15th of September) maybe I could share some user info on this forum. The panny 900 is not a real preference for me (the release list of future projectors is way to exciting to already make decisions now) but the distributor isn’t easily able to replace my faulty 700 and has offered my(by ways of compensation) the new 900. How could I say "no"?

On specs, though, I never think that the Panny will come out on top as within the last batch of 720 p projectors. I think the competition has made better strides. My personal guess would be(for what it's worth:)
3.panny 900
2. sanyo plv z4
1. Epson tw600/sony hs60 (still not sure)

The US version of this projector can already be found at the Epson site, but will be named "PowerLite Pro Cinema 800". The TW520 will be the "PowerLite Cinema 550". As soon as this is confirmed I'll change the thread title or request that it be changed.

looks like the pro 800 will be black. I like the white case better but It doesnt really matter -- just the image it throws. jeff

If this means the new TW520 is my TW200H with digital in and better contrast, WITHOUT adding VB, then that's interesting!

But LiOn, didn't I read that the 520 is using the old d4 panels?

The filerate is indeed a lot higher then my "old" Sanyo Z2.

... no vertical banding whatsoever,



There you have it then. This will make a lot of people happy.

Hello,

It looks like my reliable source on telling me the USA part numbers just got more reliable he was right! Is anybody able to get more info on the Epson site on the Pro 800 when you click more info it just times out?? I sure hope this has the Faroudja DCDi chip you would think they would post it on the beginning lines like the 500.

rmlowz

.. and I'm one of those weirdos who would be quite happy if .. as a cost-savings measure .. or even as as a means for Epson to justify a lower price (valid or not) if they didn't put it in and did drastically drop the price.

The big advantage of Epson over other models is the internal filter. I can do without power this-and-that and without Faroudja. I don't watch TV .. the laser disk player died last year (boo-hoo) and any other source-device I'm likely to use will do all the de-interlacing I need.

So ... whatever it takes to bring the cost down to Sanyo/Panasonic while keeping image quality up (optics + filter + tuning for VB and the like) .. fine by me. The only advantage Panasonic/Sanyo hold for me is the throw.

ron

Looks like even at its dimmest setting, the TW600 or Cinema 800 will put out 400 lumens in theater2 black mode with cinema filter engaged and lamp in low power mode. Here is the info taken from the Japanese Epson website:
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.epson.co.jp%2Fosirase%2F2005%2F050907.h tm

Should also note that it looks like the TW600 also has the same zoom ratio as on the previous Cinema 500 - 1.5x. For example, a 100" image can be produced from 3m to 4.5m and an 80" image from 2m to 3m if I am reading the Japanese PDF correctly. If anyone can actually read Japanese here, have a look at this document - it outlines all the official specs but I can't for the life of me even get a translator to work on this.

http://www2.i-love-epson.co.jp/catalogue/elp/050907_dreamio.pdf

I just talked to Epson on the phone, he said they are currently updating their website with the Cinema 800 info. He did send me the press release on it:





Epson Advances Home Entertainment Experiences for Customers With New Generation of 3LCD Products Including Front Projectors and True 1080p HD Rear Projection Displays


New Products Include Innovative Projector-DVD/Music Player Combo, Three Home Theater-Optimized Front Projectors, and Two Rear Projection HD Displays Featuring True 1080p Native Resolution





INDIANAPOLIS, Sept. 7 /PRNewswire/ -- Epson America Inc. is continuing its advancement into the home entertainment market with a new generation of
three- chip, LCD projection product lines, each tailored respectively for consumers, video enthusiasts and custom installers. These new lines are being showcased this week at CEDIA 2005 in Indianapolis, Ind., featuring two high definition home theater front projectors and two rear projection HD displays that produce true 1080p native resolution. Also being introduced is a unique product for instant, big screen home entertainment, the Epson MovieMate™ 25 Projector- DVD/Music Player Combo that is ideally suited for any family's home.





"Epson is the leading manufacturer of the world's most popular microdisplay projection technology also known as 3LCD," said Fabia Ochoa, group product manager, Home Entertainment Division, Epson America. "Our entire line of home theater projection products and business projectors use three-chip engines to achieve superior color quality and overall video performance.
And, with the introductions of true 1080p HD displays, we are delivering next-generation, high definition performance today with a degree of image quality that is nothing short of spectacular."





About Epson 3LCD -- "A Better Way to See"





Epson 3LCD technology utilizes one LCD chip each for red, green and blue to form a continuous image with smooth, rapid motion video that is free of artifacts. It works without a moving color wheel and offers accurate color registration, assuring detailed video and data images that are crisp and rainbow-free. Epson 3LCD produces the best possible viewing experience with more detail and accurate colors.





Epson MovieMate™ 25 Projector-DVD/Music Player Combo





One of Epson's newest and most unique solutions for home entertainment is the Epson MovieMate 25 Projector-DVD/Music Player Combo. This multi-entertainment device features a high-quality 480p resolution 3LCD
16:9 widescreen projector with a built-in, multi-format DVD player and self-amplified speakers. Users of all levels can create an exciting big screen experience in their home and other locations (i.e. outdoors, parties, RVs, etc.) quickly and easily without the hassles of connecting various audio/video components. The product's 1,200 ANSI lumens brightness rating makes it ideal for evening and afternoon use. It even comes with an 80-inch pull-up, floor-standing, 16:9-wide screen that is portable and easy to store in its integrated compact carrying case.





The Epson MovieMate 25 not only enables customers to simply plug in a power cord to instantly project DVD movies, but can also display CD-R/RW videos, JPEG digital photos, WMA video files and more. The product even excels as a standalone music player for listening to traditional audio CDs, CDs with
MP3 files, or as a stereo speaker system for external MP3 players. The MovieMate 25's built-in, self-amplified JVC stereo speakers (10-watt x 2) and external 40-watt subwoofer (also included) produce clear, room-filling sound that is ideal for music and/or movies with Dolby Digital/DTS coding.
Furthermore, its audio and video inputs make it a fun solution for playing video games, projecting TV shows and sporting events, viewing photos from a digital camera, watching home videos from a camcorder, and more.





The Epson MovieMate 25 will be available to customers in October 2005 for
$1,199 (estimated street price) through select retailers and via http://www.epsonstore.com/.





Home Theater Front Projectors





Epson is launching three additional 16:9 widescreen-format front projectors that are optimized for home entertainment, including two 720p HD-resolution models designed for high-end, home theater installation customers.





** ** Epson PowerLite Home 20:* This entry-level 480p native resolution


***** projector comes equipped with everything necessary to enjoy big screen


***** movies, video games, televised events, PC use and more, for $999


***** (estimated street price).* It achieves a 1000:1 contrast ratio and up


***** to 1,200 ANSI lumens of brightness, provides optical/offset lens shift


***** for easy setup without distortion, automatic aspect ratio adjusting,


***** six preset color modes, and short-throw flexibility, enabling an


***** 80-inch image to be projected from just 6.6 feet away.* The projector


***** also includes an 80-inch, pull-up, floor standing, 16:9-wide screen


***** that is portable and easy to store within its compact, self-housing


***** carrying case.* This model will be available in October through select


***** retailers and via http://www.epsonstore.com/.


** ** Epson PowerLite Cinema 550:* For more discerning video enthusiasts or


***** professional home theater builders, this projector delivers 720p


***** native resolution for premium HD performance.* Priced at $2,499


***** (minimum retail price), it features several advanced video processing


***** capabilities including seven color modes, up to 3000:1 contrast ratio


***** and 1,400 ANSI lumens of brightness.* It also includes HDMI


***** connections, new video noise reducing technology, cinema filter to


***** provide accurate colors and rich blacks, customized gamma and six-axis


***** color adjustment, vertical/horizontal sharpness adjustments and more.


** ** Epson PowerLite Cinema 800:* Epson's flagship home theater projector


***** offers the same features as the PowerLite Cinema 550, but achieves a


***** 5000:1 contrast ratio with 720p native resolution, 1,600 ANSI lumens


***** and 10-bit color to project more than one billion colors.* Priced at


***** $4,499 (minimum retail price), this projector also offers


***** ISF-certified (Imaging Science Foundation) calibration and advanced


***** IR/RS-232 controls.





Both the PowerLite Cinema 550 and PowerLite Cinema 800 will be available in October through authorized Epson dealers.





Epson CrystalPRO™ HD Displays Featuring True 1080p Native Resolution





In addition to its full line of front projectors, Epson is introducing two unique rear projection HD displays that achieve true 1080p native resolution. Available in 55 and 65-inch screens, the new Epson CrystalPRO HD displays represent the company's most advanced display products to date and are the first to use Epson's new 1080p 3LCD OptiFocus™ optical engine.





"Some projection companies today are claiming they achieve 1080p performance using part-time imaging or virtual pixels that create the illusion of seeing 1,080 full-time vertical lines of resolution," said Jodi Maugham, product manager, Home Entertainment Division, Epson America.
"Epson's new 3LCD engines deliver true 1080p resolution, which means there are actually 1,920 x 1,080 pixels on each of the three LCD chips. The end-benefit for consumers is full-time color and full-time resolution that gives them superlative high-definition detail and accurate color performance."





Both Epson CrystalPRO HD displays achieve 5000:1 contrast ratio. They are constructed with sophisticated, glossy black exterior designs with space-saving dimensions that make them ideal for built-in cabinet designs.
Other key features include 10-bit, 3D Digiscan™ digital video processing, multiple screen modes, built-in 30-watt (15x2) amplifier for external speakers, pre-set and customizable color modes, 3D graphic user interface, and multiple input sources including two HDMI ports, PC input and RS-232 controls. Epson CrystalPRO HD Displays will be available in January 2006.





About Epson





Epson offers an extensive array of award-winning image capture and image output products for the consumer, business, photography, and graphic arts markets. The company is also a leading supplier of value-added point-of-sale (POS) printers and transaction terminals for the retail market. Founded in 1975, Epson America, Inc. is the U.S. affiliate of Japan-based Seiko Epson Corporation, a global manufacturer and supplier of high-quality technology products that meet customer demands for increased functionality, compactness, systems integration and energy efficiency.
Epson America, Inc. is headquartered in Long Beach, Calif.





SOURCE: Epson America Inc.





Web site: http://www.epson.com/


http://www.epsonstore.com/

I wondered earlier if the price we heard originally for the TW600 was not going to be correct for the US and it looks like is the case given that the release says:

Epson PowerLite Cinema 800:
* Priced at $4,499 (minimum retail price)

--Darin

Ouch - $4499 minumum retail, that places the Cinema 800 at the top of the MSRP heap in terms of the competition. Hell, even the new Sony HS60 will be cheaper.

The 550 says $2499 minimum. He also told me these would be available in October and even offered to give me retailers near me.

Its rather dissapointing. That puts it out of my price range.

.. and yet the european price is stated at 1,800 euros for the 520 and 2,000 for 600. Assuming the same projectors, that's a spread of about $300.00 for the two models in Europe .. and $2,000 in U.S.

oh well.....

Manufacturers can't dictate minimum selling prices... so what does "minimum retail price" mean - is it the same as MAP?

Manufacturers can't dictate minimum selling prices... so what does "minimum retail price" mean - is it the same as MAP?


Actually I think they can depending on what the distribution and dealer agreements are. Rotel, Arcam, Runco, Sim etc. all set minimum retail prices on their goods. Authorized dealers who sell below this amount run the risk of having the product line revoked. The key word in all of this is "authorized" although here in Canada it is nearly impossible to find Epson "home cinema" series projectors anywhere except at a slect number of authorized dealers.

"Epson PowerLite Cinema 800:*... $4,499 (minimum retail price)"

That's disappointing after getting all excited about the European price. For $2K saving, I'd consider importing from England.

I'm guessing it is actually MAP and will hopefully street for a lot less.

Don't know about the US, but in Canada if a retailer wants to sell you a projector for 10 cents, that is up to them. Any repercussions or attempt by a manufacturer to control retail pricing is illegal... although I know manufacturers have subtle ways of strong arming retailers. That is why MSRP is "suggested" and is usually followed by the disclaimer "dealer may sell for less".

The price for the pro 800 is waaaaaayyyyyy too high to compete with sony's hs60 heck its too high to compete with last years hs-51 lol. Im not sure what epson is smoking but its going to blow up in their face. $4400 is crazy for this type of projector esp since it basically only "catches up" with sony's last years offering. Epson would have sold tons of these if they priced them right ~2500$ but then they couldnt sell their junk d4 panel pjs at the same price--- sorry epson you just lost alot of steam and excitement over this pj. Now Im looking at sony once again. byebye jeff

I would like to see this thread moved to the > $3500 MSRP forum for it's no longer appropriate here.

Actually, importing from England or anywhere in Europe for that matter may not be a bad idea. I called Epson and according to them only an adaptor plug is needed to use their projectors in North America as their projectors are dual voltage (at least all their projectors up to this point, no news on the new cinema series). 2000 euro is not bad but you would be giving up your 2 year warranty.

I have a feeling that this thread is about to die a slow death after all the excitement the european press releases caused.

SIGH!!!!!! ...... I knew that it was just too good to be true.....time to move this over to the big boys forum.

We'll have to wait and see. Disapointing if true, and we'll move it to the other forum.

Hello,

What does it ISF calibrated mean on the press release of the Pro 800?? How can they assure ISF calibration when I thought every projector has a variance meaning not all will show the same image??

rmlowz

"2000 euro is not bad but you would be giving up your 2 year warranty."

In the U.S., yes perhaps (don't know Epson's policy), but it could be sent back overseas for service.

My guess is that Epson considers its products the Reference class since their D5 panels are driving the majority of next gen LCD HT projectors. And for the most part this makes sense with last year's models as evidence. However some companies think because Americans have alot more money on average that they should charge alot more money. That is their right. And perhaps Epson America cares about competing wth their own panel customers like Panasonic and Sanyo while Epson Europe is trying for volume. If the TW600/800 turns out to be that much better a performer then we'll see a similar interest in overseas orders like we did with the Hitachi TX100 for a while. For my part however I'm willing to take a look at the Sony again(had the HS51 for a month) assuming they fix some of their problems.

Sony has been pushing the bar, albeit with limited success in terms of their HS51 product(SDE, lumens at max contrast, HDMI cropping control) and should do it again with their HS60/61. Let's hope they can solve some of the problems with this new projector.

It sounds like we're talking about 2 different PJs here. The Cinema 600/550 and the Pro 800. From reading the last 60 posts, I conclude that the 550 and/or 600 seem to be the same PJ, and the 800 is an upscale model (with hand picked D5 panels, power zoom & focus, maybe?). That could justify (?) the higher MSRP/MAP.

I hope CEDIA will clear this confusion up.

That's why I'm not moving it yet. Too many different model numbers being tossed around.

What a huge letdown regarding the price of the Pro 800/TW600.

I don't think that the 550 and TW600 are the same as on the Epson website, only the Cinema 800 is advertised as using D5 panels. I think the 550 still uses D4 panels.

We'll have to wait and see. Disapointing if true, and we'll move it to the other forum.

Agree on all counts.

That's why I'm not moving it yet. Too many different model numbers being tossed around.
It sounds like I would pay about the same % of MSRP for the 800 that I did for the 500... ;)

One quick note, though. The press release mentioned noise canceling technology. Does the 800 include the Algolith Mosquito technology?

Later,
Bill

The price for the pro 800 is waaaaaayyyyyy too high to compete with sony's hs60 heck its too high to compete with last years hs-51 lol. Im not sure what epson is smoking but its going to blow up in their face. $4400 is crazy for this type of projector esp since it basically only "catches up" with sony's last years offering. Epson would have sold tons of these if they priced them right ~2500$ but then they couldnt sell their junk d4 panel pjs at the same price--- sorry epson you just lost alot of steam and excitement over this pj. Now Im looking at sony once again. byebye jeff

Have you seen the new Sony and new Epson in person? Didn't think so :rolleyes:

I find it funny many here have NEVER seen the Epson 500 yet seem to imply they know what kind of picture it threw out and can then assume what the Epson 800 will be like.

Remember, CR is important but it isn't EVERYTHING when it comes to PQ.

Oh and their D4 pjs are junk? haha

Doesn't the Cinema 500 have a higher ansi CR and non-DI CR compared to the HS51? Isn't it brighter as well? I am pretty sure it probably has better colour accuracy/greyscale tracking out of the box too as well as a better scaler.

Point is you shouldnt just look at the CR FIGURES and make some lame PJ assumption off that.

rlindo,
I am glad you responded to jeffropaige. I was going to, however, my response would not have been so diplomatic. BTW, from what I have seen of the HS51, I would say that my Cinema 500 is every bit the projector that the HS51 is despite the piece of junk D4 panels that it uses.

rlindo,
I am glad you responded to jeffropaige. I was going to, however, my response would not have been so diplomatic. BTW, from what I have seen of the HS51, I would say that my Cinema 500 is every bit the projector that the HS51 is despite the piece of junk D4 panels that it uses.

No problem dude.

I havent seen the HS51 so have no idea how good it is but I just find it asinine some are basing a PJs worth simply on its CR and can make comments on products not even out yet. See the same thing in that Z4 thread

Why cant people do the intelligent thing and wait until the products are actually out before spouting off on how crappy they are or how pissed they are that so and so wasnt fixed or other lame junk.

When the Epson 500 came out the other LCD pjs at the time were a lot less in MSRP and I had one of them. You know what? The Epson 500 was worth EVERY PENNY compared to those LCDs. I have a hard time believing that if the Epson 800 comes in at that price that it wont be worth it or come close to being worth it compared to its cheaper competition. Maybe the Sony HS60 will be better but it is silly to say it will be at this point in time.

I of course will not make my final judgment until they are out and can be compared.

Those of us who bought the Epson 500 near the beginning
of its run could be tempted to take quiet comfort in the fact that
there would not be an upgraded Epson pj for significantly less than
we might have paid, but it is nice to see that this sentiment does not appear
on this forum. I was hoping for the lower MSRP so that more people might enjoy what
Epson has to offer. This being said it may still turn out that the 800 has
some new twists beyond the obvious specs like the ISF calibration,
(C2-Fine at some point?) that will help justify the higher MRSP to many here.

In any case, I will echo rlindo's statement that when comparing the Epson
500 to other options at the time I thought that the additional money was worth it
and I still feel that way. I still am looking forward to the release of these projectors.

obviously the dissapointment is because of the low european price. But, as has been noted, the U.S. model might not be the same as the european .. and I don't see how it can be.

The current models 200/500 are separated by: better optics and better processing and better inputs +(I dunno what else). The new models are about $500 list more than the old models. If the U.S. models were the same as the european .. no power this-and-that .. possibly no dcdi (not sure), then how can this be justified.

So, I'm now in the camp thinking that the status quo will be maintainined in the U.S. .. that is .. both models will be differentiated by all that differentiates them now. I'm dissapointed as I would have liked whatever-makes-the-500-look-so-good without other features that I won't use (like power zoom/focus, dcdi). But, maybe I'll still be surprised and that will happen.... maybe the 800 will just be a feature-laden 550 but no better picture (except higher contrast due to higher lumens allowing more agressive use of iris)

But .. as also noted . .we'll find out in a couple of days. I will live in my little dream-world until then.

Do not give up just yet. The models are up on Epson´s webpage without MSRPs. If the price remains high the strategy must be make bucks from all the z4´s and so on. Let the boutiques sell overpriced Epson products to suckers that do not know any better.

I agree Cinema 500 in US carried a clearly different value than lower end units. This time around the competition is not that different fron Epson´s offerings.

Mattias,
What are you basing that opinion on. If what we know from past products continues, then the Cinema 800 will prove to have realistic specs whereas those of the AE900 and Z4 will prove to be inflated. In any case, the Cinema 800 will most likely have higher light output, higher contrast (on-off and ANSI), be very well calibrated out of the box, and have top notch processing. Whether or not this will prove to make it as good of a value as the cheaper AE900 and Z4 will be a personal decision.

I have a Cinema 500 and felt that it was worth the premium price. I may switch to a different projector this fall, and if I do, the lower prices of the AE900 and Z4 look really nice, however, I will spend the extra money on the Cinema 800 if it offers a significant performance upgrade.

I wondered earlier if the price we heard originally for the TW600 was not going to be correct for the US and it looks like is the case given that the release says:

Epson PowerLite Cinema 800:
* Priced at $4,499 (minimum retail price)

--Darin

BIFF! POW! THWACK!

What were we thinking? Twice the projector for half the price?

Have you seen the new Sony and new Epson in person? Didn't think so :rolleyes:

I find it funny many here have NEVER seen the Epson 500 yet seem to imply they know what kind of picture it threw out and can then assume what the Epson 800 will be like.

Remember, CR is important but it isn't EVERYTHING when it comes to PQ.

Oh and their D4 pjs are junk? haha

Doesn't the Cinema 500 have a higher ansi CR and non-DI CR compared to the HS51? Isn't it brighter as well? I am pretty sure it probably has better colour accuracy/greyscale tracking out of the box too as well as a better scaler.

Point is you shouldnt just look at the CR FIGURES and make some lame PJ assumption off that.

Actually I have seen both Im looking at the hs51 right now, I OWN it. And yes I have seen the Epson 500. Not really sure how you can compare the two unless you absolutely have to have a brighter picture. The two 500's I saw both had terrible vb and is actually why I choose the hs51. Dont assume anything buddy ok. I have my opinion and you have yours. And yes I do think the d4 panels in comparison to the panels in the hs51 are junk. VB should have been cleared up years ago by epson why it wasnt I dont know and personally I dont care. Im glad you like your 500 and Im sorry you are taking it so personally that I dont believe the higher price for it is justified. Its my opinion nothing more dont read too much into it, maybe you think the sony is junk? Youre allowed to voice your opinion on this forum, so go ahead Im not going to cry like you are. jeff

Sorry If I offended any d4 panel lovers out there, oops my brother owns an ae700 I better call him and say sorry. jjoking take it easy now :)

[QUOTE=rlindo]No problem dude.

I havent seen the HS51 so have no idea how good it is but I just find it asinine some are basing a PJs worth simply on its CR and can make comments on products not even out yet.

didnt you just do what you are flameing me for ---- comparing specs on a pj you have never even seen? Go check out an hs51 if you really want to debate further. But all I was doing is posting my OPINION nothing more, sorry to offend jeff

scott b said...

--------------------------------------------
Mattias,
...If what we know from past products continues, then the Cinema 800 will prove to have realistic specs whereas those of the AE900 and Z4 will prove to be inflated. In any case, the Cinema 800 will most likely have higher light output, higher contrast (on-off and ANSI), be very well calibrated out of the box, and have top notch processing...
---------------------------------------------

Everything you said is true, but I'm only willing to pay so much for a filter inside the case with all the calibration done for me, versus a filter stuck on the end of the lens (superior processing aside .. since we don't know if that's on the 800 or not, as yet). For bottom-feeders such as myself, price/performance is an important metric.

So far Epson seems to be sticking with higher model #'s corresponding with higher price/performance, and in the past the numbers in the names have been the same in U.S. and overseas models.

Hopefully this means that the 800 is different/better than the 600 and that the U.S. will get some form of the latter.

There's more info as of now on the 550 and 800 when you click on "Overview" and "Features and Benefits" on the upper right.

http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/HomeEntertainment/hecategory.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&oid=-11523

Still no prices or spec's. I can't see any difference in features, including the 550 having "5th Generation LCD Panels", i.e., D5.

There's more info as of now on the 550 and 800 when you click on "Overview" and "Features and Benefits" on the upper right.

http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/HomeEntertainment/hecategory.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&oid=-11523

Still no prices or spec's. I can't see any difference in features, including the 550 having "5th Generation LCD Panels", i.e., D5.

As far as I can see still 2 possibilitys,
1) The 4400$ was a mistake for a 720p powerlite 800 aka TW600 .
2) The 4400$ is correct and is for a 1080p powerlite 800, if this is so, I wonder about the powerlite 550, is the 720p with D4 or D5 panels??? The spec sheets on european epson sites state that the TW520 (aka powerlite 550) is using D4 panels, hence the small difference in prive versus the TW600.

I simply cant believe epson would be as stupid to ask twice the money in the US then they are asking in europe.

Actually, what's the source for the prices of the U.S. models? They're not on Epson's site.

Noah http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6153507&&#post6153507

have place a order in PARIS , the previous schipping is 05 october .

note : im french

have place a order in PARIS , the previous schipping is 05 october .

note : im french

Bonjour :)

I am belgian thats why I am asking, paris isnt all that far.

Hi everybody,

Does anyone knows what 's the price of a replacement lamp?
I m afraid that because of the new lamp technology, the price for a new lamp will increase.

vidger,
There was a claim earlier on in the thread that the lamp price would be
much less. Let's hope that this is true.
Regards

If you go here it says the 550 in fact has d5 panels
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/HomeEntertainment/hedetails.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&infoType=FandB&oid=-13223&category=Home+Entertainment&menuSpec=-1

now im totally confused???????????????? jeff

Guys, LEAVE DEALERS AND STREET PRICING OUT OF THIS THREAD! Last time. I know we're excited about new projectors, but we still have to follow the rules. If you have a source for MSRP then post it.

whoa guys! If the Epson website is correct, then this projector is not only not a competetor with the Z4, 900, it doesn't belong in this forum anymore...

I've been following this thread with great interest as the Epson seemed to me to be a great next step from my Z2...but wow...

Is anyone else shocked by this news?

whoa guys! If the Epson website is correct, then this projector is not only not a competetor with the Z4, 900, it doesn't belong in this forum anymore...

I've been following this thread with great interest as the Epson seemed to me to be a great next step from my Z2...but wow...

Is anyone else shocked by this news?

It doesnt make sense, in europe they would sell it at halft the price.

The TW 520<>powerlite 550 makes sense, 1800 € in europe and 2400$ in the US.
The TW600<>powerlite 800 doesnt 2000€ in europe and 4400$ in the US?

Its either a typo or the powerlite 800 is a different version. Or is it normal in the US to have street prices that are with the introduction twice as high as retail prices?

I heard someone on the homecinema.fr forum spoke about a epson projector with fullhd d5 panels. It seems the release date is on january... Maybe the price of 4000 $ is actually for that full hd projector...
It's just a guess but who knows... That would explain the huge difference between the european price and the us price.

Street prices tend to be lower in the US than MSRP. However, this has not traditionally led to radical MSRP inflation, but merely much lower profit margins for dealers.

I sent Rajiv a note asking questions on the piece, but I doubt if he will answer until after CEDIA.

Later,
Bill

frank456 (do you work for Epson, frank?) posted at the start of this thread that he thought the 600 model would not list for under $3000 in the US.

If it the US Pro 800 is that much better/different than the European TW600 then we'll just have to wait and see until it is officially announced at CEDIA hopefully tomorrow. But if they are essentially the same then the price gap between list prices is astounding. Would point to an agreement with Panasonic, Sanyo etc not to cannibalize their sales.

I think you'll find that TW600 equates roughly to Powerlite 550 and that there is no European equivalent (yet) to Powerlite 800. Then the price comparisons make sense. Note that the 550 does have D5 panels.

I too now think that the Powerlite 550 is the same as the TW600 but I guess we will know for sure in a couple of weekes once all the specs are published. Pricing certainly suggests that this is true. Also, the simple fact that the TW600 is white and that the Cinema 800 is black also suggests that they are different machines.

Just as a note, according to the Epson website, the Cinema 800 is still only 720p.

My guess is that the Cinema 550 is designed to take on the Sanyo, Panny and Hitachi crowd just as the Cinema 200 was originally supposed to (but was priced originally far too high to be a contender even though I thought it was much better than the others). If that is the case, the Cinema 550 probably has inferior processing to the 800 but I imagine that the pic quality and performance would still be noteworthy.

While that would make sense releasing a 720P LCD projector at a list price of $4.5K at this stage sets the bar very high. At that price it will compete directly with a DLP projector like the Optoma H78DC3. This Pro 800 model needs to be something very special which I think the H78 is at its current MAP.

I think you'll find that TW600 equates roughly to Powerlite 550 and that there is no European equivalent (yet) to Powerlite 800. Then the price comparisons make sense. Note that the 550 does have D5 panels.
Unless they have updated the specs, the press release indicated that the 550 would only have 3000:1 CR, while the 800 matches the TW600 at 5000:1. Very odd. I am hoping that the press release was not updated to reflect the impact of the Sony projector hitting the market.

Later,
Bill

My guess is that the Cinema 550 is designed to take on the Sanyo, Panny and Hitachi crowd just as the Cinema 200 was originally supposed to (but was priced originally far too high to be a contender even though I thought it was much better than the others). If that is the case, the Cinema 550 probably has inferior processing to the 800 but I imagine that the pic quality and performance would still be noteworthy.
I hope this is the case and that the 550 has the same lumen output and CR as the 800 but at a lower MSRP. Video processing built into the projector is useless, redundant, and a waste of money for those who prefer to use an external video processor. Plus that's one less variable to throw away when trying to address lip-syncing issues.

For those attending Cedia, can you please ask the Epson rep if the 550/800 support genlocked 48Hz and/or 72Hz?

Just got off the phone with epson tech support. Scanner problems-- anyway the reason the 800 is going to be expensive is and this could just be rumor -- but it is suppose to be and I just going by what the man told me - 1080p native jeff

Bingo, sold. Put my on the buyer's list which will be very very long. At 4.5K, that would be another huge nail in single chip DLPs coffin.

Bingo, sold. Put my on the buyer's list which will be very very long. At 4.5K, that would be another huge nail in single chip DLPs coffin.

1080p D5 LCD projector with $4500 price will be killer - even if it will have minor issues like VB.

Video processing built into the projector is useless, redundant, and a waste of money for those who prefer to use an external video processor. Plus that's one less variable to throw away when trying to address lip-syncing issues.

?

Excuse my ignorance but does this mean that my upscaling Denon 3910 with the 550 would produce a picture comparable to the 800 with a regular dvd player?

If this is true it will be a no brainer decision for me :)

Paul

We have no information on what video processing is implemented in Cinema 800. I can tell you that my Cinema 500 has very good video processing, to the extent that I get a better image by feeding the Cinema 500 a 480i rather than 480P signal from my Panasonic RP91. The RP91 was a very good DVD player, however, I would suspect that the Denon 3910 has better internal processing, so who knows?

Folks, lets remember...if the native resolution is infact 1080p then the original information (quoting the $4499 price) might be suspect as well. As I read that, it clearly states that the native resolution of the Cinema 800 is 720p...

Anthony, thanks. Where does one find these press releases? I had looked through the CEDIA site and didn't find it.

"1080p D5 LCD projector with $4500 price will be killer"

That would be even bigger news than the new Sony SXRD at $10K. Seems too good to be true, though.

" - even if it will have minor issues like VB."

I'd take a VB-free 720 over a 1080 w/VB in a heartbeat. If VB is visible, it would be far more distracting and noticeable than the small visible (at 1.5X or more) increase in resolution.

The press release may be in error, but I think you guys are jumping the gun thinking that Epson is pulling out a <$5K LIST 1080p projector given available information. Epson has always charged a premium for their own projectors. A massive reversal of historic practice like this is, um, unlikely (they cannot do both a value pricing AND an OEM business - and guess which one is bigger? ;) ).

Later,
Bill

Bingo, sold. Put my on the buyer's list which will be very very long. At 4.5K, that would be another huge nail in single chip DLPs coffin.


Scott...I'll bring the popcorn and the beer!

Projector Central is reporting the Epson 800 as 720P.

Scott...I'll bring the popcorn and the beer!

Scott your on.

I thought this was interesting. If any of you guys are fans of japanese cinema, they got the actress that played "Mitsuko" from Battle Royale to be the person to promote sales of their newest projectors including the tw600 and all in one projector with dvd, the TWD1.

It's not happening gang. 1080p at 4.5k is a pipe dream for now.

It's not happening gang. 1080p at 4.5k is a pipe dream for now.
I was hoping that a closer to $2k price for a 720p would imply a reasonable price for a 1080p ($6k or less for instance), but unfortunately $4.5k for 720p doesn't bode well for pricing of a 1080p from them. At least Sony (with the Ruby) will help put a ceiling on what they can charge and sell many of the 1080p sets when those start.

--Darin

If the 800 is as good as its adverstised specs and its similar to its TW600 European counterpart I guess we'll have a thread for it in the Deals forum for North American buyers looking to buy it from overseas.

Probably :)

It looks like the 800 is directed at the home installer market, and needed a few things to differentiate it.

5000:1 CR vs. 3000:1 sounds compelling, but is likely not perceptible except in the most thoroughly light controlled rooms.

It may just be a firmware control that lowers the agressiveness of the DI, and maybe some enterprising AVS'er can hack it :)

Unless the 550 has significantly less competent video processing, I suspect there's not nearly as much difference in performance between the 550 and the 800 as there is in price.