Jack, does the VT3 have a fixed internal high pass crossover from the subs to the lower mid drivers at 100 Hz like a conventional passive tower such as the 3.3 and 2.9?

And if so, is it really necessary to use the high pass outputs from the VT3 bass control unit instead of having a direct full range feed to the amps for the mains? IOW, is any high pass filtering actually done in the VT3's bass control unit (as it is in the X1/X2)?

Thanks in advance.

Front: Classic 4's


Sub: Twelve

Congrats and welcome.

With both fours and a Twelve sub, you might want to check out what Jack had to say about using a sub with fours right here:

"Regarding comments made about low-end output, NHT recommends a couple different options if users want to extend bass output or extension.

If listeners want more bass output or control, do what Michael did, bi-amplify the towers with the X2 crossover and two A1 power amplifiers. This will give them more control of the bass as well as more output capability by increasing the amplifier power available to drive the 10" subwoofers over that of what a typical receiver can supply.

However, if even more bass extension is desired, it is necessary to use a subwoofer with bass response below 20Hz and very high output capability. This subwoofer should be low-passed around 40-50Hz, with the Four high-passed around the same frequency. This will probably require an active crossover with phase adjustment such as the X2, since the adjustments found in most surround processors will not be adequate to properly integrate the Four with the subwoofer. Ideally, end-users should use an acoustic measurement device too, provided they know how to use it properly.

We don't recommend using the Classic Fours with an external subwoofer covering the same frequency range. At some frequencies, the output from the external subwoofer(s) will add to that of the Fours and at some frequencies it will cancel the output from the Fours. The results will be worse than having no external subwoofer at all."

from

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/1206nht34/index6.html

Of course, I'm willing to bet that if you get a NHT Controller for a pre-pro and set up the "Speaker Wizard" menu accordingly, it would automatically do this for you, thus rendering the X2 unnecessary. :D

Hi,
I just got the 3C center channel and 4 left and right speakers for a home theater system. I am in the process of adjusting and setting up. I have a Harmon Kardon 635 receiver. It allows setting the crossover points for each speaker. What would be the recommended crossover points for the 3C? The specs show a 73hz low end response which I assume is down 3db. I could set the crossover at 80hz or 100hz. Any suggestions or thoughts?
The classic 4 towers could be crossed over at 40, 60, or 80 hz. Any suggestions or thoughts on these?
I have a HSU VTF3-MK3 as the sub.
Thanks in advance for any input or suggestions.
Joe H

I'd do 100Hz on that, I would imagine that's what The Controller does. Probably 60Hz on the towers to help take out some of the port energy. You sure you want a VTF3 in the mix for music? Good sub, but it could cause more problems than not. Or it could sound great.

K1llswitch,

You may find the sony has a more detailed and spacious sound than the pioneer. I am presently using an Elite 56TXi as a receiver to power Classic 3's and find the overall sound as rather "plain" and uninteresting. The Pioneer isn't offensive mind you, it is ok for a receiver. I heard the sony 5200es and found it more open and involving. However, I've also tried out at home a Rotel RB-1070 and NHT Power5 power amps out of the pioneer's pre-outs and now there's no going back. I especially notice a huge improvement on transients and a spaciousness in the soundstage with both power amps, especially the NHT. Bass at high SPL's is naturally tighter and cleaner. There is too much digital noise, among other constraints, I believe, in most receivers to produce decent sound.

Interestingly, Arcam's new avr 350 is getting rave and "best receiver period" reviews, due apparently to a "stealth mat" placed on the underside of the cover to absorb digital noise and prevent it from being reflected back down into the internal circuitry.

Bye the bye, for those who may be interested, there is a very positive review of the NHT Contoller, Power5 and Power2 amps in January's Stereophile magazine. See the "In the round column."

Stealth mat?!? I'd like to see them prove that it works with a S/N test. It might, but color me skeptical. Arcam does make a nice receiver though, I have to admit.

Omega
What is digital noise?

However, if even more bass extension is desired, it is necessary to use a subwoofer with bass response below 20Hz and very high output capability. This subwoofer should be low-passed around 40-50Hz, with the Four high-passed around the same frequency. This will probably require an active crossover with phase adjustment such as the X2, since the adjustments found in most surround processors will not be adequate to properly integrate the Four with the subwoofer. Ideally, end-users should use an acoustic measurement device too, provided they know how to use it properly.


Thanks for the tip mark - that's really good to know. I should look into the NHT electronics - I don't think the dealer I went to has them for me to demo, but if they're as good as everyone seems to say, it might be worth it

K1llswitch,

You may find the sony has a more detailed and spacious sound than the pioneer. I am presently using an Elite 56TXi as a receiver to power Classic 3's and find the overall sound as rather "plain" and uninteresting. The Pioneer isn't offensive mind you, it is ok for a receiver. I heard the sony 5200es and found it more open and involving. However, I've also tried out at home a Rotel RB-1070 and NHT Power5 power amps out of the pioneer's pre-outs and now there's no going back. I especially notice a huge improvement on transients and a spaciousness in the soundstage with both power amps, especially the NHT. Bass at high SPL's is naturally tighter and cleaner. There is too much digital noise, among other constraints, I believe, in most receivers to produce decent sound.

Interestingly, Arcam's new avr 350 is getting rave and "best receiver period" reviews, due apparently to a "stealth mat" placed on the underside of the cover to absorb digital noise and prevent it from being reflected back down into the internal circuitry.


So which amp do you like the best. For the money used the Rotel looks hard to beat.
Allen

I'd do 100Hz on that, I would imagine that's what The Controller does. Probably 60Hz on the towers to help take out some of the port energy. You sure you want a VTF3 in the mix for music? Good sub, but it could cause more problems than not. Or it could sound great.

John, you once wrote a really great article called "don't buy (or maybe it was pay) for your bass twice", or something like that. Do you still have a copy of that you could post again?

Bone215,

I may be off base, but I would describe digital noise as stray or extraneous electromagnetic radiation created from on/off (1/0) signal impulses in digital switching circuits such as digital to analogue (d/a) converters (and a/d converters), digital signal processor (dsp) integrated circuit chips, power supplies, video circuitry, etc..

david

DekPM19,

I personally felt the NHT Power5 was more appealing but I only had 2-3 hours to listen to it with a narrow choice of music. One thing that i really liked about it was it's sense of pace or rhythmn that it projected with music. The music became more lively and enjoyable, a rare and almost nebulous quality i think that a superior product is able to create. I was comparing the two amps using acoustic and latin guitar along with world music produced with natural instruments.

Your choice of course will come down to your own preferences and budget as always. Is home theatre or music performance more important? What type of music will get the most play, i.e., I would guess that rock would require different needs to reproduce than violin or piano would. What type of "sound signature" do you prefer? Warm and rich or detailed and analytical - this you might want to determine first by experimenting with different amps.

Many others who use NHT speakers use NAD amps because of their synergy I suppose. I haven't yet tried NAD so I can't comment on them. If you do a search on this thread plenty of references should appear. I would also like to try Anthem's PVA-5 or PVA-7 power amps as I hear they are quite musical in nature, while not overly pricey, in addition to being powerful and dynamic, which are more HT priorities.

and the announcement is....???????

Alimentall,

it almost sounds like NHT doesn't appreciate the way you promote them

One thing is clear, based on the pirce/performance ratio of their speakers, why they don't have a cult like following is indicative of poor marketing and business sense.

Alimentall,

it almost sounds like NHT doesn't appreciate the way you promote them

One thing is clear, based on the pirce/performance ratio of their speakers, why they don't have a cult like following is indicative of poor marketing and business sense.

I think a lot of other people here would claim to be members of the cult.

Just like Apple, they make a lot of boneheaded moves, but ultimately, for me, anyway, it doesn't get in the way of a good product.

John, you once wrote a really great article called "don't buy (or maybe it was pay) for your bass twice", or something like that. Do you still have a copy of that you could post again?

It got killed in the hacking, but to sum up:

50-75% of the cost of *any* tower speaker is in bass reproduction, good or bad, deep or not. The midrange of most every tower is acoustic suspension for a reason. So, if you buy a $2000 tower, you could probably buy a $500-$1000 monitor that is just as good provided that it a) has the same caliber of parts and b) also has the benefit of acoustic suspension design. So, if your tower speaker still needs a subwoofer, then you might as well buy good monitors and subwoofers. Otherwise, you're wasting $hundreds, if not $thousands.

The Evolution and Classic Four is a perfect demonstration of what high performance and value can be achieved if you actually make sure the speakers go low enough that you don't need a subwoofer on top of it. Unfortunately, most "high-end" companies force you to buy their better engineered towers to get the midrange quality yet still you have to buy a sub to get the bass. That's what I love about NHT so much. They either give you bass or they don't.

it almost sounds like NHT doesn't appreciate the way you promote them

Well, I think they kinda do, sort of. But I'm also a PITA because I'm so demanding.

One thing is clear, based on the pirce/performance ratio of their speakers, why they don't have a cult like following is indicative of poor marketing and business sense.

Yeah, but I have to say, they *are* getting better on all of the above counts. They just got lost for awhile, but they seem to have found some direction again.

the announcement???

I keep going back and forth between buying an Evolution front stage or Classic 3 and 3c for my dedicated 2900 cubic foot 14 X 26 theater room w/ seating at 13 ft from the speakers. Unfortunately, my local dealer won't allow in-home demo (pretty weak for such a high volume outfit (0neca11's local store - B&M price with Internet style service - worst of both worlds)) and only carries Classics. Their audition room stinks, but I really liked what I heard from the Classic 3 vs Boston (VR tweeter and tonal balance too bright for me) and Polk LSi7 (seemed dead to me). My primary use will be for Home Theater and playing concert DVDs of bands like DMB, Pearl Jam, and U2 while working out on an exercise machine.

I've enjoyed my SuperOnes for 11 years, but they are up for demotion in favor of a matched front stage and hopes of better dynamic performance and possibly more refined upper midrance / treble. Maybe you can help me decide from the following criteria:

1. Perhaps I should give the heaviest weighting to the quality of the center channel. The speaker will be below a projector screen and can be moved away from the wall as necessary so I don't know that the boundary switch matters. Anyone have experience with both Evolution and Classic 3C? Which is the better center channel?

2. Which will be the better front stage for Rock? I will be using an external sub. I love my SuperOnes for what they can do in critical listening, but they make hamburger of lesser recordings. It probably sounds scitzo saying that I want more refinement in the upper mid/treb but want it forgiving. You can't really have both can you? How do your Classics sound for rock/alternative?

3. One goal is better dynamic performance. Will M5s be able to fill my 2900 cubic feet? I have read many accounts that it has slightly better mids than the M6 which I would really like for movie viewing. I'm not opposed to buying better amplification if my 105 watts aren't enough. I'm using a 50 lb. Denon AVR-3600 which has not your average receiver power supply, but my SuperOnes do fall off at higher volumes. Can I expect the Classic 3 to go louder than the SuperOnes without falling apart? I'm not shooting for hearing loss, but a little better output is one of my goals.

Which would you recommend given these criteria? I really liked the soundstage that I heard from the Classic 3. However, my main goals are a) best center channel in a lineup that I can afford - intelligble dialog; b) nice output; c) still analytical but not so much that it will sound terrible when I need "Yellow Ledbetter" to push me through the last mile of my workout!!

Thanks for any advice,
Mike in Spokane

The classic 3c is prob the best center nht ever made; its outstanding for the $. Classic 3s with 1 or 2 evolution U1 subs in that size room would be everything you need.

It got killed in the hacking, but to sum up:

50-75% of the cost of *any* tower speaker is in bass reproduction, good or bad, deep or not. The midrange of most every tower is acoustic suspension for a reason. So, if you buy a $2000 tower, you could probably buy a $500-$1000 monitor that is just as good provided that it a) has the same caliber of parts and b) also has the benefit of acoustic suspension design. So, if your tower speaker still needs a subwoofer, then you might as well buy good monitors and subwoofers. Otherwise, you're wasting $hundreds, if not $thousands.

I disagree based on these considerations:

No sub/satellite combination can attain the sonic fidelity of a "properly" designed "true" full range speaker such as the NHT 3.3 without the IDEAL placement of the subwoofer in relation to the satellites as well as IDEAL phase and amplitude adjustments to properly integrate the seperate transducers... in the real world these parameters are rarely even close to being approached.

PLUS... any monitor can't perform to it's potential without an excellent stand which is usually expensive... when combined with the cost of an adequate subwoofer they generally add up to the difference it would be to just buy a properly integrated full range tower in the first place... duh!

In all my years of admiring excellence in music reproduction the pinnacles have never consisted of a sub/satellite combination... always a properly engineered full range large scale system.

Manufacturers LOVE to market sub/sat systems because they are easier to sell(big time WAF), manufacture and ship... plus... most idiots love them because they can just crank that subwoofer up and get some nice bloated/overblown one note bass like they are used to hearing in their car or your local chain store's 5.1 demo systems... Bose rules!

the announcement???

the announcement what?

[QUOTE=BachToRock]I disagree based on these considerations...
QUOTE]

I think you and John may actually be in violent agreement on most points ;) . Much of John's contention was that fools (like me) who owned both floorstanding speakers and subs were paying for bass twice... :rolleyes:

I find the sub helps the !bang! factor when watching movies but frankly it doesn't do a thing when I'm just listening to audio (and I sometimes turn off the sub in my avr when I do although I confess I can't hear much difference).

On another note, as I probably can't afford a Controller :( , has anyone any experience with NHT combined with a Cambridge AVR? I have a NAD C272 amp for the fronts (Classic 4s) but was wondering about the 'openness' and 'warmth' of a Cambridge.

No sub/satellite combination can attain the sonic fidelity of a "properly" designed "true" full range speaker such as the NHT 3.3 without the IDEAL placement of the subwoofer in relation to the satellites as well as IDEAL phase and amplitude adjustments to properly integrate the seperate transducers... in the real world these parameters are rarely even close to being approached.

Perhaps, but it gets easier and easier every day. Besides, you can also argue that there is no way to get the ideal placement for the bass if your subs are built in. How lucky would it be to have the best place for subs *also* be the best place for the satellites?

PLUS... any monitor can't perform to it's potential without an excellent stand which is usually expensive... when combined with the cost of an adequate subwoofer they generally add up to the difference it would be to just buy a properly integrated full range tower in the first place... duh!

A great stand is $150-$250. Buying your bass twice is generally more like $750-$infinity. The woofer section of the B&W Diamond 800D probably $12K and it doesn't go *that* low or play *that* loud.

In all my years of admiring excellence in music reproduction the pinnacles have never consisted of a sub/satellite combination... always a properly engineered full range large scale system.

Infinity IRS? Genesis 1.1? NHT Xd?

Manufacturers LOVE to market sub/sat systems because they are easier to sell(big time WAF), manufacture and ship... plus... most idiots love them because they can just crank that subwoofer up and get some nice bloated/overblown one note bass like they are used to hearing in their car or your local chain store's 5.1 demo systems... Bose rules!

Manufacturers LOVE to market a tower that still needs a subwoofer because it ups the price of the system by $thousands.

While the companies that sell *good* sub/sats can be counted on one, *maybe* two, hands, if you think the Xd sub/sat system can't blow the veneer off most high-end speakers in most every way, I don't know what to say.

PS - the whole idea of "don't buy your bass twice" is a value proposition. There are instances where it will be higher performance and lower distortion to have 5-7 tower speakers rolled off at 50Hz and then into a gigantic 18" sub BUT, it's the most expensive way to get the performance.

Looking for some advice.

I received two mint condition NHT SB3's and am looking for a center channel. I really wanted to go with the SC2 but I cant find it anywhere. It seems it is too old now. So here are my questions:

Will the TWO-C or Three-C match the SB3's?
If so which would you recommend for a medium size room?

Thanks in advance.

I keep going back and forth between buying an Evolution front stage or Classic 3 and 3c for my dedicated 2900 cubic foot 14 X 26 theater room w/ seating at 13 ft from the speakers. Unfortunately, my local dealer won't allow in-home demo (pretty weak for such a high volume outfit (0neca11's local store - B&M price with Internet style service - worst of both worlds)) and only carries Classics. Their audition room stinks, but I really liked what I heard from the Classic 3 vs Boston (VR tweeter and tonal balance too bright for me) and Polk LSi7 (seemed dead to me). My primary use will be for Home Theater and playing concert DVDs of bands like DMB, Pearl Jam, and U2 while working out on an exercise machine.

I've enjoyed my SuperOnes for 11 years, but they are up for demotion in favor of a matched front stage and hopes of better dynamic performance and possibly more refined upper midrance / treble. Maybe you can help me decide from the following criteria:

1. Perhaps I should give the heaviest weighting to the quality of the center channel. The speaker will be below a projector screen and can be moved away from the wall as necessary so I don't know that the boundary switch matters. Anyone have experience with both Evolution and Classic 3C? Which is the better center channel?

2. Which will be the better front stage for Rock? I will be using an external sub. I love my SuperOnes for what they can do in critical listening, but they make hamburger of lesser recordings. It probably sounds scitzo saying that I want more refinement in the upper mid/treb but want it forgiving. You can't really have both can you? How do your Classics sound for rock/alternative?

3. One goal is better dynamic performance. Will M5s be able to fill my 2900 cubic feet? I have read many accounts that it has slightly better mids than the M6 which I would really like for movie viewing. I'm not opposed to buying better amplification if my 105 watts aren't enough. I'm using a 50 lb. Denon AVR-3600 which has not your average receiver power supply, but my SuperOnes do fall off at higher volumes. Can I expect the Classic 3 to go louder than the SuperOnes without falling apart? I'm not shooting for hearing loss, but a little better output is one of my goals.

Which would you recommend given these criteria? I really liked the soundstage that I heard from the Classic 3. However, my main goals are a) best center channel in a lineup that I can afford - intelligble dialog; b) nice output; c) still analytical but not so much that it will sound terrible when I need "Yellow Ledbetter" to push me through the last mile of my workout!!

Thanks for any advice,
Mike in Spokane

The classic 3c is prob the best center nht ever made; its outstanding for the $. Classic 3s with 1 or 2 evolution U1 subs in that size room would be everything you need.

I'm going to strongly disagree with SC10000 here and say if you like movies and rock music, go with the M5s or M6s. Either will play much louder and have better dynamics than the Threes, especially the M6s even more so than the M5s.

[QUOTE=BigBad74]Looking for some advice.

I received two mint condition NHT SB3's and am looking for a center channel. I really wanted to go with the SC2 but I cant find it anywhere. It seems it is too old now. So here are my questions:
QUOTE]

You can still get a SC2 from http://www.coolbuys.ca. Their prices aren't the best for a web site but at least they have stock...

$600 thats nuts. I think Im going to have to go with the classic line.

Thanks for the link though.

I think you and John may actually be in violent agreement on most points ;) . Much of John's contention was that fools (like me) who owned both floorstanding speakers and subs were paying for bass twice... :rolleyes:

I find the sub helps the !bang! factor when watching movies but frankly it doesn't do a thing when I'm just listening to audio (and I sometimes turn off the sub in my avr when I do although I confess I can't hear much difference).

On another note, as I probably can't afford a Controller :( , has anyone any experience with NHT combined with a Cambridge AVR? I have a NAD C272 amp for the fronts (Classic 4s) but was wondering about the 'openness' and 'warmth' of a Cambridge.

I think that some subs are better suited to movies, such as SVS, in terms of output and extension, but some subs, such as NHT Evolutions, just flat out sound better on music.

As for CA AVR, I used a CA Azur 540R on my T5/M5/L5 based system for quite some time before I replaced it with the NHT electronics, and I was most impressed with it. I liked it even better than a NADT753 (and a Denon 3803 I had before the NAD).

I'm going to strongly disagree with SC10000 here and say if you like movies and rock music, go with the M5s or M6s. Either will play much louder and have better dynamics than the Threes, especially the M6s even more so than the M5s. I'll have to agree with mark russ, at least in part. I personally like the sound of the 3s, but if you need something louder skip the M5 and go straight to M6s. Do yourself a favor & listen to both of them 1st. Heck, listen to any speaker before buying. :)

Looking for some advice.

I received two mint condition NHT SB3's and am looking for a center channel. I really wanted to go with the SC2 but I cant find it anywhere. It seems it is too old now. So here are my questions:

Will the TWO-C or Three-C match the SB3's?
If so which would you recommend for a medium size room?

Thanks in advance.

I'd go with a M5 or M6 before a 2C/3C to match SB3s.

I'd go with a M5 or M6 before a 2C/3C to match SB3s.

Do you think they would match better? The 2c looks to have almost identical specs as the sc2.

I have replaced the Threes in my office rig with a used pair of M5s in great condition that came in yesterday.

The room is small, 10' x 10' with a 9' ceiling, and the speakers are on/in bookshelves/cases very close to the wall behind them and there is a lot of glass on both side walls with a very obvious near field listening environment. Not to say that the Threes don't do some things better, but the M5s are in fact much better suited to this particular situation.

They are matched with a U2 sub set (so in effect, I have a pair of T5s in that room :eek: ), and an Outlaw Audio RR2150 2 channel stereo receiver with it's top notch built in bass management system . Needless to say, I'm smiling right now. :D

I remember a while back John tried to warn me that the Threes might not be the ideal choice for this room, and I should have listened. :o :(

Do you think they would match better? The 2c looks to have almost identical specs as the sc2.

Throw specs out the door, the drivers in the Evos would be a MUCH closer match. Hell, the 2C doesnt even really match the AZ or Two. :p

$600 thats nuts. I think Im going to have to go with the classic line..

I do believe that's Canadian $$$, so it would be notably less here. Still, the price is high, it was only $400 new. I'd go with a Classic 2C or 3C and move the SB3s to the rear at some point.

Also, I'll reiterate that I think the Threes/Fours sound better and cleaner and less in your face up to extremely high volumes (and certainly play plenty loud enough for me!). I'd kill for an Evo II with Classic (or SEAS Excel!) driver technology.

I'd go with a M5 or M6 before a 2C/3C to match SB3s.

The M5 or M6 would be a very bad match with the SB3's because the upper mid and tweeter are wired in reverse polarity in relation to the woofers... similar crossover design to the AudioCenter 2, 2.9 & 3.3's... any of these speakers would be out-of-phase with the mains from the mids on up... not exactly the formula for accurate reproduction.

The 3C has all drivers in the same polarity like the SB3 and would likely be your best match

In response to your responses...
Perhaps, but it gets easier and easier every day. Besides, you can also argue that there is no way to get the ideal placement for the bass if your subs are built in. How lucky would it be to have the best place for subs *also* be the best place for the satellites?

>How does it get easier every day? Have the properties of Physics changed? Subs still have the same old adjustments for crossover/phase/volume... if that! More than 95% of subs I have seen in use are placed for CONVENIENCE and space constraints... not proper sound... add to that the factor of mis-adjustment and you have the formula for bad sound.

A great stand is $150-$250. Buying your bass twice is generally more like $750-$infinity. The woofer section of the B&W Diamond 800D probably $12K and it doesn't go *that* low or play *that* loud.

>A barely adequate and stable stand costs that much... and you figures add up to a typical scenario that exemplifies my point...
Classic 3 + Excellent Stands + Comparable Subwoofer = Classic 4

Infinity IRS? Genesis 1.1? NHT Xd?

>Uh... isn't this the same guy that is pushing for a Full-Range system using the XD technology? What has been the XD's main downpoint in ALL reviews besides ultimate dynamic range? Integration of the subwoofer & satellite!

Manufacturers LOVE to market a tower that still needs a subwoofer because it ups the price of the system by $thousands.

>A well designed tower doesn't need a subwoofer

While the companies that sell *good* sub/sats can be counted on one, *maybe* two, hands, if you think the Xd sub/sat system can't blow the veneer off most high-end speakers in most every way, I don't know what to say.

>There is no doubt that the XD is excellent(not perfect) and breaking new ground... but it is because of the electronic technology, not that it is a sub/sat. As pointed out above, being a sub/sat is the main crutch of the system

$600 thats nuts. I think Im going to have to go with the classic line.

Thanks for the link though.

Agreed - my local dealer usually undercuts coolbuys by 25%. But he doesn't have any 'old' stock.

The M5 or M6 would be a very bad match with the SB3's because the upper mid and tweeter are wired in reverse polarity in relation to the woofers... similar crossover design to the AudioCenter 2, 2.9 & 3.3's... any of these speakers would be out-of-phase with the mains from the mids on up... not exactly the formula for accurate reproduction.

The 3C has all drivers in the same polarity like the SB3 and would likely be your best match

The drivers in the M5/M6 are a MUCH closer match, and you can always reverse to help compensate for the polarity (hell, Jack H. himself has SB3s as surrounds for his 3.3/AC2 front stage), but you sure as hell can't do anything to make up for completely different drivers. :p

Perhaps, but it gets easier and easier every day. Besides, you can also argue that there is no way to get the ideal placement for the bass if your subs are built in. How lucky would it be to have the best place for subs *also* be the best place for the satellites?

>How does it get easier every day? Have the properties of Physics changed? Subs still have the same old adjustments for crossover/phase/volume... if that! More than 95% of subs I have seen in use are placed for CONVENIENCE and space constraints... not proper sound... add to that the factor of mis-adjustment and you have the formula for bad sound.

A great stand is $150-$250. Buying your bass twice is generally more like $750-$infinity. The woofer section of the B&W Diamond 800D probably $12K and it doesn't go *that* low or play *that* loud.

>A barely adequate and stable stand costs that much... and you figures add up to a typical scenario that exemplifies my point...
Classic 3 + Excellent Stands + Comparable Subwoofer = Classic 4

Infinity IRS? Genesis 1.1? NHT Xd?

>Uh... isn't this the same guy that is pushing for a Full-Range system using the XD technology? What has been the XD's main downpoint in ALL reviews besides ultimate dynamic range? Integration of the subwoofer & satellite!

Manufacturers LOVE to market a tower that still needs a subwoofer because it ups the price of the system by $thousands.

>A well designed tower doesn't need a subwoofer

While the companies that sell *good* sub/sats can be counted on one, *maybe* two, hands, if you think the Xd sub/sat system can't blow the veneer off most high-end speakers in most every way, I don't know what to say.

>There is no doubt that the XD is excellent(not perfect) and breaking new ground... but it is because of the electronic technology, not that it is a sub/sat. As pointed out above, being a sub/sat is the main crutch of the system

As an owner of both a set of 3.3s and an dual sub Xd system, I can tell you right now that if a gun was stuck to my head and I was forced to choose between one or the other, the 3.3s would be hitting the road so fast it'd make your head spin. :p

I know of someone else here who already has plenty of experience with 3.3s who will hopefully soon weigh in on them opposed to VT3s. I for one can't wait to hear his thoughts on the matter. ;)

Also, I'll reiterate that I think the Threes/Fours sound better and cleaner and less in your face up to extremely high volumes (and certainly play plenty loud enough for me!). I'd kill for an Evo II with Classic (or SEAS Excel!) driver technology.

The Threes to me definitely sound brighter (if that's what you mean by "less in your face") than M5s, and even SB3s for that matter. But the M5s definitely have better dynamics IMO than the Threes if that's what you mean.

As for Evo II with Classic driver technology, what do you mean different from simply adding say a pair of Threes to a dual U1 setup?

The drivers in the M5/M6 are a MUCH closer match, and you can always reverse to help compensate for the polarity (hell, Jack H. himself has SB3s as surrounds for his 3.3/AC2 front stage), but you sure as hell can't do anything to make up for completely different drivers. :p

In what way can you claim the drivers are a MUCH closer match other that a similar tweeter at a completely different crossover point?

ugh... reversing the polarity will only make the bass frequencies out-of-phase with mains... it's a lose/lose scenario... in regards to creating a proper soundstage phase is the #1 most important factor when you are using more than 1 speaker... after that... obviously frequency response, amplitude and placement.

I can assure you... a stereo pair consisting of, for example, a SB3 and a Classic 3 hooked up properly would sound MUCH better than an identical pair of either hooked up with one reverse polarity...

"the announcement what?"

you claimed NHT was intending to make one this month, did you not?

$600 thats nuts. I think Im going to have to go with the classic line.

Thanks for the link though.

Classic centers won't match with the Super Audio line.

Get the SC1/2, *or* get another SB3 and put it on its side. Easier to find and cheaper. I did that in my old Super Audio system, and it worked like a champ.

John sees a lot of used gear so he might be able to help you out...

But enjoy the SB3s. What a kick ass pair of speakers. I ran 'em for a year and a half without a sub and they were great. Great with a sub too. But the classics are better :-)

This question is directly primarily for John but anyone please feel free to chime in. I have the Classic 3's powered by a NAD C370 and I recall John also has used a NAD with the 3's. I am not trying to open Pandora's box here, but in your experience have you found a speaker cable that compliments the Classic 3? I currently use Straight Wire level 2 Stage cables whic I paid $100 for. Just wondering based on your experience if I could sqeak any more performance out of my setup. Thanks.

I suggest you spend you time and money on room placement, decent stands, and a few room treatments.

>There is no doubt that the XD is excellent(not perfect) and breaking new ground... but it is because of the electronic technology, not that it is a sub/sat. As pointed out above, being a sub/sat is the main crutch of the system

IMO, being able to place the satellite and sub seperately is usually an advantage in terms of getting the best bass/imaging/tonal balance from a speaker system. Also, the Xd isn't really a sat/sub system in the traditional sense because the crossover is proprietary as opposed to the usual scenario where one is using a receiver or processor to blend the satellite and sub, which is crude by comparison.

Good advice for sure. Speaker positioning played a large role in getting the great sound I get out of the 3's. I found about 2 feet from the back wall, no side walls within 6 feet and spaced about 6 feet apart with a slight toe-in gives me the best overall imaging and soundstage. I have the Sanus foundation stands each filled with lead shot - I really like these stands. I have also damped down the room in terms of adding lined curtains, a couch with pillows, and a few cloth tapestries. Room treatments were a BIG inprovemnet in sound quality for me.

Sounds like you got it covered. I hope I didn't come off condencending, just checking.

John may disagree, but unless your current cables have some strange reactance and act as filters, I don't see anythng to be gained by changing them.

Thanks for all of the responses.

Dang, now all that's left for me to do is listen them. :D

Dang, now all that's left for me to do is listen them. :D

Just keep them clean, and apply a little car wax once and a while.

Have 3 SB2, pr 1.5 and pr SuperOnes. Don't care for the SB2's, love the 1.5's. What centers might work well w/ the 1.5's? I believe AC1 designed for them, but don't seem to be readily available. Other options? Figure the SuperOnes as surround and SB2's as Ebay. Open to ideas. Thanks

Have 3 SB2, pr 1.5 and pr SuperOnes. Don't care for the SB2's, love the 1.5's. What centers might work well w/ the 1.5's? I believe AC1 designed for them, but don't seem to be readily available. Other options? Figure the SuperOnes as surround and SB2's as Ebay. Open to ideas. Thanks

The Classic 3C is an excellent Center and would mate acoustically with the 1.5's...

BTW... the 1.5's really benefit from upgrading the parts in the crossover which is very easy if you are skilled with a soldering iron...

you claimed NHT was intending to make one this month, did you not?

Yes, that was the plan, and I was just passing along what they had said publicly - that it would probably be the end of January. However, it was also the plan to "make no announcement before its time". IOW, when the product is imminent, they'll announce it, which is a fantastic and very helpful way of doing things.

This question is directly primarily for John but anyone please feel free to chime in. I have the Classic 3's powered by a NAD C370 and I recall John also has used a NAD with the 3's. I am not trying to open Pandora's box here, but in your experience have you found a speaker cable that compliments the Classic 3? I currently use Straight Wire level 2 Stage cables whic I paid $100 for. Just wondering based on your experience if I could sqeak any more performance out of my setup. Thanks.

I think your cables are just fine. If you want to try something more exotic, you could try something like Nordost or Kimber, but just don't get carried away! I often hear (or am pretty sure I hear?) subtle differences in the cables but none of them make me feel like "Eureka!". It's a fine line for me, because I want people to focus on the important things, but then have to have the exotic stuff available for those that demand it. I just ordered some Nordost Heimdalls for a customer. They're 1/3rd the cost of his speakers. I ordered Valhalla for another customer at his insistence and they cost almost as much as his speakers did and that is saying a lot :eek:

Yes, that was the plan, and I was just passing along what they had said publicly - that it would probably be the end of January. However, it was also the plan to "make no announcement before its time". IOW, when the product is imminent, they'll announce it, which is a fantastic and very helpful way of doing things.

Couldn't agree more with waiting until a product is (almost) ready to ship before you announce it. I'm still waiting for more info on the NAD T-175 which was originally announced in Nov/Dec and may not appear until Apr. :mad:

Hi all,

I've been following along since before I was a member here, even--duing the Godot-esque wait for the Threes...
I bought my Threes over the summer and have been enjoying them in (my wife's) living room until my theater room was ready...
Which was last night:

I'm having some difficulty mounting them with the recommended Omnimount 20.0. The Zeros in the bar area did OK (10.0) but I'm having some trouble getting the 20.0s to bite hard enough to hold the Threes. The mount to the wall is no problem whatsoever, just getting it locked down--even with vice-grips. Suggestions?

Also, I know the wall-mounting isn't optimal. In formulating a back-up plan and in theme of recent discussion: Does anyone have a suggestion for a rather tall stand? I do like the Sanus mentioned above, but I'm just looking for alternatives if I can't get the mounts to work.

~Mark

I had a hell of a time mounting my Zeros using OmniMounts until I got my partner to help me out. I also discovered the 10.0 omnimounts didn't work and I had to reorder the 20.0 series, which worked just fine. I wonder if some Zeros have a different thread size in back than others?

I realize most of this thread is about the higher end NHT speakers, but I wanted to share a few thoughts about the Absolute Zero in case anyone out there is thinking about getting them. If you're looking for small profile speakers for rock and home theater, then look no further. My pop and rock CDs sound way better than they ever have which has changed my listening habits considerably. Tortoise's "TNT" sounded surprisingly three dimensional with just a stereo pair and subwoofer. My SACDs also sound much better than what I've experienced previously. Imaging and soundstaging are incredible, at least to this budding audiophile on a budget, in a small room.

My jazz LPs and CDs do not shine quite so brightly, unfortunately, but I still have my Acoustic Energy speakers for greater midrange detail when I need it. Pianos and tenor sax just don't have the weight or richness they should have with the Zeros. At this price, though, I can't complain.

After a little more time with these I feel better about the 2C as well. Especially with Dolby Digital soundtracks, dialogue has some nice detail (you can hear the different kinds of reverb around characters speaking in different settings).

I wish I had the time and money to compare the NHTs with some similarly priced systems (Aperion, especially, came pretty close in size and finish) but for now I think I've found a system I can live with for a few years.

The end.

Cap'n Jazz,

Thanks for your thoughts on the AZs. With all the buzz around B&W CM-1s and Era Design 4s, I wonder how these would hold up in a 'behind the curtain' test.

The Classic 3C is an excellent Center and would mate acoustically with the 1.5's...

BTW... the 1.5's really benefit from upgrading the parts in the crossover which is very easy if you are skilled with a soldering iron...

Tell me more: where do I find the parts and instructions; is this thru NHT?
Thanks

I had a hell of a time mounting my Zeros using OmniMounts until I got my partner to help me out. I also discovered the 10.0 omnimounts didn't work and I had to reorder the 20.0 series, which worked just fine. I wonder if some Zeros have a different thread size in back than others?

I realize most of this thread is about the higher end NHT speakers, but I wanted to share a few thoughts about the Absolute Zero in case anyone out there is thinking about getting them. If you're looking for small profile speakers for rock and home theater, then look no further. My pop and rock CDs sound way better than they ever have which has changed my listening habits considerably. Tortoise's "TNT" sounded surprisingly three dimensional with just a stereo pair and subwoofer. My SACDs also sound much better than what I've experienced previously. Imaging and soundstaging are incredible, at least to this budding audiophile on a budget, in a small room.

For the record, I got the AZs up on the OmniMounts, but it was a bit of a pain...

Just curious, what sub are you using with them?

Just a quick comment on the Absolute Zeros:
WOW!

I don't have the money now to get a crazy audio system like hear and I thought anything in a speaker sounding like my Grado SR-60 headphones would be out of budget, but these AbsoluteZeros are amazing. Never, ever heard anything this good for anywhere near this price. Have them paired with an Infinity subwoofer I picked up on a great close-out deal about 5 years ago. For a while I had used a Yamaha mini-system (yes, I know, everyone says mini-systems suck, this one was regarded as one of the best mini-systems ever though and sounded better some people's seperate component stuff, although granted those who had gotten whatever overpriced consumer stuff), but man these AbsoluteZeroes sound great. Glad I don't have to use earphones only to get high quality audio at a reasonable price!

For the record, I got the AZs up on the OmniMounts, but it was a bit of a pain...

Just curious, what sub are you using with them?
I got the SVS SB12-plus. I'm still evaluating that (it's taking some time to get everything dialed in right) but so far I think it's a pretty good match, and it should work well with larger speakers should I go that route somewhere down the line (eventually I might like to replace the fronts with Classic Threes and expand to a 7.1 system).

I have an update to give everybody. About 2 years ago my NHT system was made up of 2.9's L/R, AC2 for center and 1.5's for rears in a 5.1 set up. I got some M5 and compared them to what I had and I felt for H/T it was a better system. So I got 3 m5's for the L/C/R. After about a year with my m5's I liked the sound but felt their was something missing. I was thinking about trying the M6's across the front. I pm a few people here on the forum read some things and felt what I was missing in the m5 was some of the mids. To me they would sound stranged and weak on high action scencs. Well I went through all the things about the M6, my room may not be big enough. It is 16 x 19 and opens up into the foyer, kitchen and dinning room. You may sit to close to them. I sit about 10 feet back from the center channel. Well when tonygeno put his M6's up for sale I happen to see them the first day they were their. I e-mailed him and everything worked out so I was able to buy his M6's for a great price. In fact they were in such great shape he could have sold them to me for new and I would have not know the difference. (Thanks again Tony). Well back to the update, all I can say is if you think you want the m6's just get them. I fell like the small things that the m5 was lacking the m6 makes up for. with a stronger mid in the m6 I think it blends better with my sub. I have them crossed at 80hz. I know everybody is different but I fell this was a great move for me. I now have m6 across the front and m5 for rears in a 5.1 system. By the end of this year I am moving my system into the bouns room which is 16 x 22 an I plan on going with a 7.1 set up their which I am leaning hard for the controler and amp 5 and amp2. I need my disclaimer so here it is YMMV. But I really like the M6 for my L/C/R.
Allen

Thanks for the kind words Allen. Enjoy them. I am happy they are now in a new home where they'll be appreciated.

Cap'n Jazz,

Thanks for your thoughts on the AZs. With all the buzz around B&W CM-1s and Era Design 4s, I wonder how these would hold up in a 'behind the curtain' test.

I wonder that too. The AZs aren't as bright as the CM1s, but I think they'd do fantastic side by side, except people usually seem to prefer the brighter sound in casual testing. "more detailed"

Alimentall,

have you tried biamping the Four's with the NAD M25 and if so what type of results did
you get?

There is a set of used Classic 4 for sale, wanted someone to see if they are as nice as the owner says.

Thanks

all I can say is if you think you want the m6's just get them. I fell like the small things that the m5 was lacking the m6 makes up for
Allen

Allen.
Im in the same situation you are. I've been debating between the M5 and M6 across the front. My room is 17 x 15 and I think Im going go give the M6's a chance. Thanks for posting your experience.

Allen.
Im in the same situation you are. I've been debating between the M5 and M6 across the front. My room is 17 x 15 and I think Im going go give the M6's a chance. Thanks for posting your experience.


You will liked them for sure.
Allen

Well back to the update, all I can say is if you think you want the m6's just get them. I fell like the small things that the m5 was lacking the m6 makes up for. with a stronger mid in the m6 I think it blends better with my sub. I have them crossed at 80hz. I know everybody is different but I fell this was a great move for me. I now have m6 across the front and m5 for rears in a 5.1 system. By the end of this year I am moving my system into the bouns room which is 16 x 22 an I plan on going with a 7.1 set up their which I am leaning hard for the controler and amp 5 and amp2. I need my disclaimer so here it is YMMV. But I really like the M6 for my L/C/R.
Allen
I have to admit, I always thought NHT would be a little too bright for my very sensitive ears. But like I have been posting in a couple other threads, now that i have the M6's across the front for my LCR speakers, I wish I would have tried them years ago. It would have saved me A LOT of money in upgrading! :)
It's amazing to me too that they got Stereophile's Class A rating last year (well it was the T6 they reviewed at $4000 a pair). Considering it was really the M6 that recieved the rating (as they even stated the bass did not go low enough from the bass modules to get a class A rating as subs), that means at a retail of $1200 the M6's essentially got Class A rating! Pretty amazing considering the next lowest price for a pair of speakers that received the Class A rating was a pair of B&W's at about $8000 a pair, and many costing thousands more than that! :cool:
Yeah, NHT definately has a winner here and has for awhile! I listen to music quite a bit (I sit about 10' away from them too), and I can't get over how good they sound. And for HT, forget it! They are so damn dynamic, it is unbelievable! Even for $1200/pair retail they are a steal! Mate them with a quality sub, and you are good to go!

MF

In what way can you claim the drivers are a MUCH closer match other that a similar tweeter at a completely different crossover point?

ugh... reversing the polarity will only make the bass frequencies out-of-phase with mains... it's a lose/lose scenario... in regards to creating a proper soundstage phase is the #1 most important factor when you are using more than 1 speaker... after that... obviously frequency response, amplitude and placement.

I can assure you... a stereo pair consisting of, for example, a SB3 and a Classic 3 hooked up properly would sound MUCH better than an identical pair of either hooked up with one reverse polarity...

The tweeters are a lot more than just similar, they are alike, as confirmed by the man himself here:

The Super Audio and Evolution tweeters are the same ...

And while I've never really seen any "official confirmation" of it (like for the tweeters above), I'm pretty sure that the 6.5" polypropylene mid bass drivers in the SB3 and the M6 are identical as well.

As for "polarity", tell us, what exactly do you think the NHT Controller, for example, does with say, SB3 mains and a M6 center when set up accordingly with the "speaker wizard" menu???

And finally, your example given in the last paragraph of your post quoted here is apples to oranges. It does not apply and is irrelevant in that the way you stated it, of course the matched pair of speakers would not sound as good since they would be out of phase with and relative to each other.

No sub/satellite combination can attain the sonic fidelity of a "properly" designed "true" full range speaker such as the NHT 3.3 without the IDEAL placement of the subwoofer in relation to the satellites as well as IDEAL phase and amplitude adjustments to properly integrate the seperate transducers... in the real world these parameters are rarely even close to being approached.

Do you really think the bass integration is so great in your 3.3s?

Lets just take a look at what two of the engineers who actually designed and owned the 3.3s have had to say about it. First Jack when discussing the modifications to his own personal pair of 3.3s:


Here is what's different in my M3.3s.

1) Used an X2 to biamp the speaker. Had to modify the EQ sections in the X2 to get the response I wanted to make the speaker flat down to 20-25Hz.

2) I removed the passive subwoofer LP crossover completely.

3) I removed the 6.5" HP crossover completely. This consists of one series cap and one parallel inductor.

4) Reduced the volume of the 6.5" chamber by about 65%. I glued large blocks of wood in there. This raises the resonant frequency by a bunch. Along with the crossover mods and the active crossover It allows the 6.5" and the subwoofer to integrate much better. This solves my single biggest gripe with the M3.3, that it almost never has enough 80-150-Hz output. All of these mods need to be done at the same time to work. It will give the M3.3 most of the warmth and slam that a T6 system has.

and Bill when the VT3s were first introduced:

"Out of curiousity, when I had Bill Bush cornered, I asked him if the 3.3 was still NHT's statement product, that is, NHT's 'best' speaker. Surprisingly, his answer was "No"! The new VT-3 is apparently superior to the 3.3. Bill, who designed the 3.3 woofer, the entire crossover, and, in general, spent 18 months of his life on the 3.3, has been living with serial number 2 for many years now and wanted to fix all of the little things in the speaker that annoyed him over that time. For example, he feels that the 3.3 has some minor problems below 350Hz.

The VT-3 is a little room-friendlier, with its dual woofers. Because there are two drivers reproducing the same frequencies, the floor reflection dips are ameliorated because of the drivers' spacing. Instead of one bigger dip due to the floor reflection, there are now two smaller dips at different frequencies because of the physical separation of the drivers. This spreading out of room effects will work at any listening distance, unlike the 3.3 whose room-resistance would only work below a certain listening distance because of its uneven bass driver duty".

from


http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/ces2001/loudspeakers/page_18.shtml

I suggest you spend you time and money on room placement, decent stands, and a few room treatments.

Plus 1.

IMO, being able to place the satellite and sub seperately is usually an advantage in terms of getting the best bass/imaging/tonal balance from a speaker system. Also, the Xd isn't really a sat/sub system in the traditional sense because the crossover is proprietary as opposed to the usual scenario where one is using a receiver or processor to blend the satellite and sub, which is crude by comparison.

BINGO!!

... and felt what I was missing in the m5 was some of the mids. To me they would sound stranged and weak on high action scencs.

Allen

Congrats Allen! Glad you are digging the M6s, but I think what you may be liking more is the increased output, since even Jack stated that the M5's mids are actually better than the M6's.


The M5 has better midrange tonality than the M6. The M6 will play louder and has less distortion and compression at any given playback level.

Just curious, but what sub or subs are you using?

I have to admit, I always thought NHT would be a little too bright for my very sensitive ears. But like I have been posting in a couple other threads, now that i have the M6's across the front for my LCR speakers, I wish I would have tried them years ago. It would have saved me A LOT of money in upgrading! :)
It's amazing to me too that they got Stereophile's Class A rating last year (well it was the T6 they reviewed at $4000 a pair). Considering it was really the M6 that recieved the rating (as they even stated the bass did not go low enough from the bass modules to get a class A rating as subs), that means at a retail of $1200 the M6's essentially got Class A rating! Pretty amazing considering the next lowest price for a pair of speakers that received the Class A rating was a pair of B&W's at about $8000 a pair, and many costing thousands more than that! :cool:
Yeah, NHT definately has a winner here and has for awhile! I listen to music quite a bit (I sit about 10' away from them too), and I can't get over how good they sound. And for HT, forget it! They are so damn dynamic, it is unbelievable! Even for $1200/pair retail they are a steal! Mate them with a quality sub, and you are good to go!

MF

Yep, the M6s can be had for like $300 and some each. Show me a better speaker for the $$$, you can't.

this forum would be useful if people could stick to the topic.

This thread would have been dead at least a year ago if that was the case. :p

Congrats Allen! Glad you are digging the M6s, but I think what you may be liking more is the increased output, since even Jack stated that the M5's mids are actually better than the M6's.

I have the M6 balanced with R/S meter at 75dbs. The same as the m5 so I would think out put is the same or as same as the settings will allow. Movies like WOTW with high action out put I felt sounded just on the edge of harsh with the m5. I ran some test through the m6 but not that movie will tommorrow. Like I said I do cross them over at 80hz. I did try running them full range one time to see because others talked about and I will say the m5 bottom out in my system. I tought I was going to blow the woofers in them. But I am not about to disagree with Jack that is for sure. :)




Just curious, but what sub or subs are you using?

I am running an SVS 16-46 sub being driven by Beringer 2500. I only use 1 channel of the amp and it is on the sub. After I get my controler next year and amp 5 and amp2 I will be looking for a new sub. If I was buying today it would be a JL F-113. I want to go to a sealed sub but want the bottom end, and I think movies are going to keep going lower with the sound tracks.
Allen

If I was buying today it would be a JL F-113. This is what I am using with my M6's, sweet combo for sure!

this forum would be useful if people could stick to the topic.

I don't think there are many threads this old or this big that stuck to the topic as much as this has.

Speaking of "off topic", I guess NHT has announced the new Verve product. At least, they're taking orders and sent me all the info, so I'm going to assume it's official. They also said they're "on the water" and due in within a few weeks which is really great.

Verve is basically a higher end "lifestyle" or flat panel kind of system for $2K. Nothing terribly earth shattering conceptually as other products have existed like this except that it's an NHT and therefore will undoubtedly offer excellent performance/price ratio. Imagine something like a B&W Rock Solid speaker except with much better built cabinetry and a few innovations. They come with both pedestals and wall-mounts. It also uses a coaxial mid/tweeter for flexible placement.

The cabinet is made from BMC just like Xd's front baffle so it's very rigid and inert. Expect many of NHT's future products to use more and more of this stuff. The beginning of the end of cheap plastic and MDF is slowly arriving.

The monitors are 3-ways similar to an L5, but with smaller drivers, I think. Looks to be about a 4" midbass, 3" midrange, .75" tweeter, but not sure. They're sending me a prototype to play with ahead of the first shipment. There's a VLS with dual midbass for $240 each and and a VSS with single midbass for $200 each.

The more interesting thing is the dual 10" "flat panel" acoustic suspension powerd subwoofer which appears to use the same 10" woofers from Xd or a variation of them in what appears to be a ~24"-30"W x 12"-15"H x ~6" D enclosure. It looks like it could be mounted on a wall, slid under a bed, tucked behind a TV. Gloss black finish.

Granted, this is not as exciting to me as a SuperXd or Evolution II, but I can understand where it fits. Basically, this is going to be mainly a high grade bedroom system or a system to go with a flat panel system, an apartment system, or maybe even an office/computer system. It would look great next to my computer monitor.

There are two things that I find really exciting and make me all that more optimistic about future product. I'm really liking BMC as a cabinet material, so having it in a $400/pr or $480 speaker and a $880 subwoofer is amazing to me. When I imaged Evolution II in my mind, it always has a BMC front panel that curves away into the cabinet! The second thing I like is the acoustic suspension sub at a more reasonable price. If they can do a dual 10" powered sub for only $880, then they could also eventually replace the Ten and Twelves with reasonably priced dual woofer acoustic suspension designs. A competitively priced"SuperEight" and "SuperTen" doesn't seem so unimaginable now.

The Verve Small Satellite are the same price as the AZ, the Verve Large Satellites fit neatly below the Two. I won't be expecting big bass, but they do look compact. I have more audiophile interests and dreams, but, as much as I hate to admit it, they're probably going to sell tons and tons and tons of these. Heck, I'm probably going to sell tons and tons and tons of them. I'm already thinking it would make an awesome setup with a Sonos ZP100 amp (because it has the necessary sub crossover) or as a bedroom HT system.

Haven't seen any internet info yet, but if they put it up on the site, I'll post a link!

Alimentall,

have you tried biamping the Four's with the NAD M25 and if so what type of results did
you get?

I haven't. I really don't think they need to be bi-amped if you have good amplification. Plenty of bass output!

I have an option to buy (2)Classic 4, (2)Classic 3 and a (1)Classic 3c used, I asked the seller what was his best deal, and he wants to give him a fair offer, but he is motivated, so what should I offer?

50 to 60% of retail.

I 2nd the 50-60%, IF they were purchased from an Authorized dealer (make sure the serial numbers are still on each speaker).

If I traded in Fours and Threes, I wouldn't sell them for less than 75%, but 50-60% is more than fair for a private seller.

THe seller is getting me pictures, and if we do it, I am going to use Alaska Air Cargo so I get them the same day I pay. It should only cost me $250 to have shipped.

Michael

I just recently came across the NHT speakers and love the design with the piano black finish. I was wondering how the 4 absolute zeros and the two c would perform as a surround setup for home theater and maybe some music listening. I will also purchase a sub to go with them. It seems a little over my budget but I like the relatively small size of the speakers. I am specifically trying to compare them to the SVS sb-01 speaker set so if anyone could compare those speakers in terms of performance that would be great. Thanks, Rob

I just recently came across the NHT speakers and love the design with the piano black finish. I was wondering how the 4 absolute zeros and the two c would perform as a surround setup for home theater and maybe some music listening. I will also purchase a sub to go with them. It seems a little over my budget but I like the relatively small size of the speakers. I am specifically trying to compare them to the SVS sb-01 speaker set so if anyone could compare those speakers in terms of performance that would be great. Thanks, Rob

I have a pair of AZs that I use for rear surround, but I briefly hooked them up as a stereo pair and they sounded good. I think a surround sound system built around them would be a lot of fun. Haven't heard the SVS speakers but I'm curious about them.

One thing to consider that would save you a bit of money is to use an AZ as a center instead of the Two C. You probably lose a bit on horizontal dispersion if it's on its side, but you gain having the exact same driver complement across the sound field. 5 AZs is $1000. More than the the SVS, still, but you save $300 that way, for what some would argue is a better match...

Speaking of "off topic", I guess NHT has announced the new Verve product. At least, they're taking orders and sent me all the info, so I'm going to assume it's official. They also said they're "on the water" and due in within a few weeks which is really great.

Verve is basically a higher end "lifestyle" or flat panel kind of system for $2K. Nothing terribly earth shattering conceptually as other products have existed like this except that it's an NHT and therefore will undoubtedly offer excellent performance/price ratio. Imagine something like a B&W Rock Solid speaker except with much better built cabinetry and a few innovations. They come with both pedestals and wall-mounts. It also uses a coaxial mid/tweeter for flexible placement.

The cabinet is made from BMC just like Xd's front baffle so it's very rigid and inert. Expect many of NHT's future products to use more and more of this stuff. The beginning of the end of cheap plastic and MDF is slowly arriving.

The monitors are 3-ways similar to an L5, but with smaller drivers, I think. Looks to be about a 4" midbass, 3" midrange, .75" tweeter, but not sure. They're sending me a prototype to play with ahead of the first shipment. There's a VLS with dual midbass for $240 each and and a VSS with single midbass for $200 each.

The more interesting thing is the dual 10" "flat panel" acoustic suspension powerd subwoofer which appears to use the same 10" woofers from Xd or a variation of them in what appears to be a ~24"-30"W x 12"-15"H x ~6" D enclosure. It looks like it could be mounted on a wall, slid under a bed, tucked behind a TV. Gloss black finish.

Granted, this is not as exciting to me as a SuperXd or Evolution II, but I can understand where it fits. Basically, this is going to be mainly a high grade bedroom system or a system to go with a flat panel system, an apartment system, or maybe even an office/computer system. It would look great next to my computer monitor.

There are two things that I find really exciting and make me all that more optimistic about future product. I'm really liking BMC as a cabinet material, so having it in a $400/pr or $480 speaker and a $880 subwoofer is amazing to me. When I imaged Evolution II in my mind, it always has a BMC front panel that curves away into the cabinet! The second thing I like is the acoustic suspension sub at a more reasonable price. If they can do a dual 10" powered sub for only $880, then they could also eventually replace the Ten and Twelves with reasonably priced dual woofer acoustic suspension designs. A competitively priced"SuperEight" and "SuperTen" doesn't seem so unimaginable now.

The Verve Small Satellite are the same price as the AZ, the Verve Large Satellites fit neatly below the Two. I won't be expecting big bass, but they do look compact. I have more audiophile interests and dreams, but, as much as I hate to admit it, they're probably going to sell tons and tons and tons of these. Heck, I'm probably going to sell tons and tons and tons of them. I'm already thinking it would make an awesome setup with a Sonos ZP100 amp (because it has the necessary sub crossover) or as a bedroom HT system.

Haven't seen any internet info yet, but if they put it up on the site, I'll post a link!

Thanks, sounds interesting. Does it also include the amplification and dvd player as well John, or just a speaker package only?

NHT has updated the reviews page of their site.

http://nhthifi.com/2006/nht-reviews.html

The Sensible Sound review of the XD I thought was especially good, one of the best I've ever seen of any kind, and by that, I don't just mean what he said about them, but rather, the actual review itself.

Thanks, sounds interesting. Does it also include the amplification and dvd player as well John, or just a speaker package only?

Just the speakers.

The Sensible Sound review of the XD I thought was especially good, one of the best I've ever seen of any kind, and by that, I don't just mean what he said about them, but rather, the actual review itself.

Yeah, isn't it nice when a reviewer actually understands the product rather than simply parroting the literature? I read a Vandersteen review once that just was like "Richard says......" every third sentence.

I have a pair of AZs that I use for rear surround, but I briefly hooked them up as a stereo pair and they sounded good. I think a surround sound system built around them would be a lot of fun. Haven't heard the SVS speakers but I'm curious about them.

One thing to consider that would save you a bit of money is to use an AZ as a center instead of the Two C. You probably lose a bit on horizontal dispersion if it's on its side, but you gain having the exact same driver complement across the sound field. 5 AZs is $1000. More than the the SVS, still, but you save $300 that way, for what some would argue is a better match...

Agreed, but I would make other comprimises to be able to the the center vertically.

I have a pair of AZs that I use for rear surround, but I briefly hooked them up as a stereo pair and they sounded good. I think a surround sound system built around them would be a lot of fun. Haven't heard the SVS speakers but I'm curious about them.

One thing to consider that would save you a bit of money is to use an AZ as a center instead of the Two C. You probably lose a bit on horizontal dispersion if it's on its side, but you gain having the exact same driver complement across the sound field. 5 AZs is $1000. More than the the SVS, still, but you save $300 that way, for what some would argue is a better match...

jandr seems to be having a special on AZs I picked up 3 (for FL,C,FR; using older speakers I already had for rears and sub (infinity infinitesmal servo, got it on a close out for $150 a few years back))
for $390 shipped ($130 each, free shipping).

NHT has updated the reviews page of their site.

http://nhthifi.com/2006/nht-reviews.html

The Sensible Sound review of the XD I thought was especially good, one of the best I've ever seen of any kind, and by that, I don't just mean what he said about them, but rather, the actual review itself.

Yes... the SS review is excellent and please note he devotes over 2 pages of commentary that totally reinforces the points I was trying to make on the complex issues involved with sub/sat systems.

How is the new verve line gonna compare with the L5 flat panel speakers? Will they be similiar in deisign (long and slender)?

Yes... the SS review is excellent and please note he devotes over 2 pages of commentary that totally reinforces the points I was trying to make on the complex issues involved with sub/sat systems.

Yeah, but he is also talking about conventional sub/sat combos, as he also states why the most of that does not even apply to the Xd, just as Tim has already pointed out.

... Also, the Xd isn't really a sat/sub system in the traditional sense because the crossover is proprietary as opposed to the usual scenario where one is using a receiver or processor to blend the satellite and sub, which is crude by comparison.

I tried to copy and paste what I was talking about from the PDF link of the review, but couldn't figure out how to do it, so I just used Tim's quote instead as it pretty much hit the nail on the head anyway. :o :p

But, I do agree with you at least to a certain extent in that I personally like a full range, point source speaker for 2 channel music listening (a T5 set instead of M5s on P5s with a U2 sub set, for example, but the flip side of that is that I also happen to like M6s on P6s with dual U1s over a pair of T6s), and also when talking about conventional sub/sat arrangements in general. There are always pros and cons either way. Pick your poison.

How is the new verve line gonna compare with the L5 flat panel speakers? Will they be similiar in deisign (long and slender)?

I don't know, but with M5s in my office rig now to go along with a U2 sub set, and since I already have a cheap Onkyo DVD player in there for SACD/DVD Audio purposes, if I could only somehow figure out a way to put up a pair of L5s as surrounds, I could get a little LCD or plasma TV and another M5 to go up under it for a center, and use my CA Azur 540R AVR that I'm not using right now (it would fit on top of the bookcase perfectly) and have a complete 5.1 Evolution surround rig in my office. Even though I haven't seen anything about it other than what John has said, I'll guarantee you right here and now that set up would literally smoke the Verve! :p :D ;) :cool: :) :eek:

How is the new verve line gonna compare with the L5 flat panel speakers? Will they be similiar in deisign (long and slender)?


Yes, but more curvy. Kinda like () shaped when vertical, but not as severe. Also less money and, they say, a bit of a step down in performance. The L5 setup with a U2 is all but double the cost, so I guess it will certainly have a niche. Unfortunately, most of my L5 customers *wanted* to spend less and now probably will. But I guess that's okay becasue I don't expect it to be a huge drop in performance.

Sounds great. I definitely dont want to spend as much as the L5. Hopefully these will be available soon, or at least they will update their website with info.

'Verve'...sounds a little spunky like that teacher with glasses & her collar flipped up; not in the same league as, you know, the hot substitute. :)

The L5 setup with a U2 is all but double the cost, so I guess it will certainly have a niche. Unfortunately, most of my L5 customers *wanted* to spend less and now probably will. But I guess that's okay becasue I don't expect it to be a huge drop in performance.


Should we start playing Taps for the L5? Don't folks who want "Lifestyle" looks generally key mostly on price (not that there's anything wrong with that)?

That would be sad. I'm very fond of my room full of them, in any case. I didn't much care about the looks, just the ability to wall mount due to space constraints. I was honestly surprised at the performance. I need to hurry up and get some W1s before all I'm left with are foo-foo options. "Now available in Hot Pink and Key Lime Green "

:)

'Verve'...sounds a little spunky like that teacher with glasses & her collar flipped up; not in the same league as, you know, the hot substitute. :)

You mean like this? :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXfGlg2o6qs

Now THAT I'll take in hot pink or lime green.

:cool:

Just curious what you guys think of Absolute Sound's review of the Three, it is on NHT's website now.

Just curious what you guys think of Absolute Sound's review of the Three, it is on NHT's website now.


umm...great photography...

I can also confirm jandr is a good place to get the Absolute Zeros. They are no longer an authorized online dealer but they are authorized to sell them in their b&m store. I went ahead and ordered two pairs from them online and had no problems; at that price they're a great deal.

RobDMB: look a few pages back for my comments on a 5.1 system using AZs and the 2C. I haven't heard the SVS system, although it gets plenty of raves. The NHT speakers certainly *look* better, though. :D

The Verve system does not replace the L5 in any way. The products have different purposes.

Verve is deisgned for the customer that wants a small, good looking system that sounds good and will either be placed on the wall or within 18" of it. It is a complete system. Three front channel speakers, two surrounds and a subwoofer. It isn't mix and match. It is not designed to be used in large rooms. It is designed to appeal to the most typical audio purchaser.

The L5 is designed to be an onwall solution for the products in the Evolution line. It is capable of being used in much larger rooms than Verve and/or playing much louder. It has more mounting flexibility since it can swivel 180 degrees on the wall.

Hi Jack, just bumping this question from a few days ago back up:

Jack, does the VT3 have a fixed internal high pass crossover from the subs to the lower mid drivers at 100 Hz like a conventional passive tower such as the 3.3 and 2.9?

And if so, is it really necessary to use the high pass outputs from the VT3 bass control unit instead of having a direct full range feed to the amps for the upper main drivers? IOW, is any high pass filtering actually done in the VT3's bass control unit (as it is in the X1/X2)?

Thanks in advance.

Now THAT I'll take in hot pink or lime green.

:cool:

Oh yeah, or, even better yet, nothing at all!!!! :D :) :cool: ;) :p :eek:

BTW, that was a younger Janet Jones (Wayne Gretzky's wife) dancing on the table in the bikini.

umm...great photography...

Yep! :D

The Verve system does not replace the L5 in any way. The products have different purposes.

Verve is deisgned for the customer that wants a small, good looking system that sounds good and will either be placed on the wall or within 18" of it. It is a complete system. Three front channel speakers, two surrounds and a subwoofer. It isn't mix and match. It is not designed to be used in large rooms. It is designed to appeal to the most typical audio purchaser.

The L5 is designed to be an onwall solution for the products in the Evolution line. It is capable of being used in much larger rooms than Verve and/or playing much louder. It has more mounting flexibility since it can swivel 180 degrees on the wall.

Jack, thanks for the input...very much appreciated.

Damn, can't even start a good rumor around here any more without somebody who KNOWS something showing up and ruining the fun.

Fine, be that way.

:p

Will you be able to buy the verve speakers individually (or in pairs), or will you have to buy the whole package including subwoofer? Also will there be a center channel?

Will you be able to buy the verve speakers individually (or in pairs), or will you have to buy the whole package including subwoofer? Also will there be a center channel?
It is a complete system. Three front channel speakers, two surrounds and a subwoofer. It isn't mix and match. Any further questions....

I'm still planing to get M5s even with the new Verve stuff coming.

I think I'm going to order a Controller. I do have a few questions for the experts, if I may:

It looks like if one has a Controller and Evo subs then the X1 is unnecessary. That's cool, but how does it handle 2 W1s (or W2s for that matter) with L5s as Main? Is it possible to have "Stereo" bass with this configuration? looks like something is missing...what would it be?

I suppose a more pertinent question would be am I doing more harm than good in my tiny little 1450 cubic foot room...

Is this better or worse than wanting hot pink cabinets? :)

You need the X1 to do stereo W1s...the controller doesn't offer that option.

I think one W1 would be *more* than plenty for that room! But you have to split to get dual W1s. I just did a dual Power5s with two of the channels doing the W1s and it rocks, but a much bigger room. 6 Threes and a ThreeC too! :)

I put an Xd with only dual 10" woofers in an *enormous* room and it just rocked.

Yeah, but you guys probably think I'm nuts for stuffing seven L5s in this room, too. I be loving it. :)

Maybe it would be more fiscally responsible to start with one. :o

Well, I didn't say it would *hurt*!

Now you're just acting as an enabler, John.

:)

John what are your thoughts on the controler and power 2 & 5 amps with the M6 and m5. Other than Mark I haven't heard a lot of NHT owner say much about it.
Allen

I haven't tried it personally, but others have. Technically, there's no better match. Though, like Mark, I did quickly find that the Controller's mike wants to calibrate the subs about 6dB too hot. But I let it do its thing, then make tweaks that I think sound better to the ear. Or, for instance, if it says one speaker is 9.5ms away and the other is 10ms, I chalk it up to the mic being a bit off and fix it manually.

I'm still planing to get M5s even with the new Verve stuff coming.

Smart move, especially with your room and EC.

While I already knew that, but it was just reinforced more than ever when I switched Threes out for M5s in my office rig in a similar type of situation as yours.

I think one W1 would be *more* than plenty for that room!

Plus 1 on that. A single U1 (or U2 set up if more appropriate for the room and placement) will be more than adequate.

I just did a dual Power5s with two of the channels doing the W1s and it rocks, but a much bigger room. 6 Threes and a ThreeC too! :)

I wonder if anyone with a Controller has tried bi-amping the Fours in a similar fashion?

John what are your thoughts on the controler and power 2 & 5 amps with the M6 and m5. Other than Mark I haven't heard a lot of NHT owner say much about it.
Allen

I haven't tried it personally, but others have. Technically, there's no better match.

Oh yeah, I definitely think the M5/M6/L5 just might be the best match of all for the Power5/2.

Though, like Mark, I did quickly find that the Controller's mike wants to calibrate the subs about 6dB too hot. But I let it do its thing, then make tweaks that I think sound better to the ear. Or, for instance, if it says one speaker is 9.5ms away and the other is 10ms, I chalk it up to the mic being a bit off and fix it manually.

I held my mike with both hands (with elbows tucked in for support) right in front of my nose while seated in the main, centered listening position, held my breath, and tried not to shake too much. :o :p :eek:

And all Evo sub owners with Controllers not using X1s definitely need to pay close attention to that. I mean, think about it, other than the sub output trim adjustment via the remote of the Controller itself, there is no sub output gain adjustment for the A1s if using no X1 like there is for virtually every other sub, like a Twelve for example.

While I hadn't tried it myself, I see no reason why you couldn't use an X1 with the Controller from the sub out, but yet still avoid the X1's high pass filters by using the Speaker Wizard menu to select M5s as mains and sub as either T6/U1 or T5/U2 with X1.

One effect of replacing the Threes in my office rig with M5s is that I took the Threes home, and have spent some time listening to them with much more proper placement for them on stands and in the open away from the walls in a much bigger space than I had them in before, and I have developed a much greater appreciation for them than I had previously. They were literally being choked and stifled the way I had them before. Now that they can "breath", I'm finally seeing what they can do.

They are a very musical speaker, just as the Evo subs are as good for music listening as any I've ever heard.

I just wish NHT would release a true on wall surround to match the Threes/Fours such as the L5 is for the M5s/M6s.

Also, I'd like to see a NHT digital AVR (or better yet, a digital integrated multi channel amp/pre-pro without a tuner) similar to the Controller and Power5/2 digital amps so that everything is kept in the digital domain the whole time.

One of the things I love about the threes is the absence of any enclosure coloration, in my treated room they truely disappear.

I'll say it again, the Threes are *quiet*, so much so many people think there's something deficient about them, but what I hear is a lack of driver/cabinet coloration that you generally only [don't] hear on products that are fantastically expensive and often not even then. I'm often amazed that people don't see the big picture on this and will find *one* thing they think is a bit off and say "nope, I'd rather [insert colored speaker here]. Like one guy was obsessing about the lower treble being a bit off to him and I'm thinking "okay, find a speaker that has a better lower treble at that price and everything else is going to be worse". What's weird too is that some of the people that don't notice the almost super human things the Threes do are the ones that think they hear some little flaw. $800, guys, not $8000. Then they buy some crazy expensive speaker and I ask "so......you heard this on the Threes, but you're telling me you don't notice this, that and the other thing on your new speakers? Okey dokey!"

The do like a nicely treated room though! I should do that one of these days ;)

One effect of replacing the Threes in my office rig with M5s is that I took the Threes home, and have spent some time listening to them with much more proper placement for them on stands and in the open away from the walls in a much bigger space than I had them in before, and I have developed a much greater appreciation for them than I had previously. They were literally being choked and stifled the way I had them before. Now that they can "breath", I'm finally seeing what they can do.

They are a very musical speaker, just as the Evo subs are as good for music listening as any I've ever heard.

I just wish NHT would release a true on wall surround to match the Threes/Fours such as the L5 is for the M5s/M6s.

Also, I'd like to see a NHT digital AVR (or better yet, a digital integrated multi channel amp/pre-pro without a tuner) similar to the Controller and Power5/2 digital amps so that everything is kept in the digital domain the whole time.

For those with the Classic 4 how far should they be from the walls?

I'd say a minimum of 2' from the front wall (behind the speaker) and at least 3' from the side walls.

$800, guys, not $8000.

IMO, NHT has always been about maximum bang for the buck. In most cases, they don't really cost all that much more than the typical, run of the mill usual suspect cookie cutter mass market brands like Polk, Boston, Klipsch, Infinity, Def Tech, JBL, Bose, etc., but yet they rival some much more expensive higher end brands in performance. Case in point, the $600 each (at full retail) M6 getting a Stereophile restricted LF Class A rating.

Jack and NHT's other engineers have always seemingly had a knack about knowing exactly how and where to spend the $$$ (and where to scrimp) in a speaker to get the max performance from it at it's given price point.

What is the ETA on the new Verve system? Is there any information or press releases available on this product?

Thanks

I haven't tried it personally, but others have. Technically, there's no better match. Though, like Mark, I did quickly find that the Controller's mike wants to calibrate the subs about 6dB too hot. But I let it do its thing, then make tweaks that I think sound better to the ear. Or, for instance, if it says one speaker is 9.5ms away and the other is 10ms, I chalk it up to the mic being a bit off and fix it manually.
I would like to hear a controller and power amps on the m6/m5. I heard an Arcam AVR 350 with some RBH 661se (RBH's M6) but WTW. The rbh's are great but cost a little more than the M6. I would like to hear the AVR350 on the m6's. I think it would be great match up.
Allen

What is the ETA on the new Verve system? Is there any information or press releases available on this product?

It should be here within a week or two as I understand it. By the end of the month anyway. Product specifics (size, driver complement, etc) are kinda sketchy, but NHT doesn't get really into data for some reason. I guess it will get up on the site soon though.

We did L5s with a Controller yesterday. It does lean out the sound and cleans up the mid/upper bass quite a bit. Much more detailed. The integration with the Twelve was okay, but not ideal, but we're putting in a W1 and moving the Twelve up with his SuperOnes.

It's a shame the verve speakers are a set and won't be sold individually. I'd be rather interested in them if I could buy them without a sub.

You can buy the satellites and subs separately. The big sats come in 2 or 3-packs, the small ones just in pairs.

Actually, the sub might be the best part of the system if it's even remotely close the the Xd sub upon which it appears to be based. The Xd sub is about the best subwoofer I've heard in my life.

PS - If you want to hear any NHTs, you can always look up my brother in SC, he lives off of Blue Course. I'll be back to visit end of May. We've been discussing the lack of NHT dealers there ;)

Oh thats good to hear you can buy the satellites differently. I'll have to wait to check them out. Also I was wondering, what is the advantage to the BMC material they use. Is it better or worse than the MDF that many bookshelfs use?

BMC is basically like Corian™ or any other rigid poured composite. It's much more rigid than MDF and can be poured into more useful shapes. More expensive, but as the manufacturing techniques get better and cheaper, it's the way to go.

Thanks for the response. ONe more question if you don't mind. I notice that NHT speakers list themselves as having 6 ohms imprediance, where I noticed most speakers/receivers are 8 ohms. What implications does that have when you choice a reciever. Will an 8 ohm reciever work or no?

Jack and NHT's other engineers have always seemingly had a knack about knowing exactly how and where to spend the $$$ (and where to scrimp) in a speaker to get the max performance from it at it's given price point.

They also don't charge for attitude or arrogance or any of those other wonderful things you get from high-end companies if you're willing to spend enough.

Thanks for the response. ONe more question if you don't mind. I notice that NHT speakers list themselves as having 6 ohms imprediance, where I noticed most speakers/receivers are 8 ohms. What implications does that have when you choice a reciever. Will an 8 ohm reciever work or no?

They're just being more honest. But most receivers will be okay in most rooms at most volumes.

We did L5s with a Controller yesterday. It does lean out the sound and cleans up the mid/upper bass quite a bit. Much more detailed. The integration with the Twelve was okay, but not ideal, but we're putting in a W1 and moving the Twelve up with his SuperOnes.

While I haven't tried it with L5s as mains (and prolly won't, not even as an experiment), the biggest, most dramatic difference I've seen so far was with the ST4s, especially the bass. I imagine it would prolly be the same with Fours as well.

I would like to hear a controller and power amps on the m6/m5. I heard an Arcam AVR 350 with some RBH 661se (RBH's M6) but WTW. The rbh's are great but cost a little more than the M6. I would like to hear the AVR350 on the m6's. I think it would be great match up.
Allen

If nothing else, do get the Controller for the NHT model specific DEQ Allen, even if you ultimately go with another brand of amps. You simply can't get a better pre-amp for NHT speakers, PERIOD, even just for 2 channel.

With the Power5/2 amps though, the Controller can actually do diagnostics on them if there is ever a problem.

Even If you ever move away from NHT speakers to something else, Kal said in his review that the NHT electronics are among the very best separates he has ever experienced, regardless of brand. He used Paradigms in his review without even checking the NHT speaker built in DEQ.

Actually, the sub might be the best part of the system if it's even remotely close the the Xd sub upon which it appears to be based. The Xd sub is about the best subwoofer I've heard in my life.

I take it it's definitely sealed then John?

Hmm, if so, this could be a better alternative for some people than the Ten/Twelve.

Yeah, I've been fighting for an analog version of the Xd sub in the Classic series, but it looks like it came in the Verve series. It almost has to be the same drivers because the cabinet is so thin. The exciting thing is the price - $880 is pretty darn good for a dual 10" sealed subwoofer. I was thinking they might not be able to pull off a good sealed sub at a price similar to the Twelve, but obviously they did it. I have to say, I was disappointed that Evo II or other Classics or more Xds or a receiver wasn't what came out *but* I have a feeling there will be a nice market for this. I'm just worried about the cannibalization factor with L5s and the U2. We like that system - did a full 7.1 system yesterday.

Sounds like the SVS SB12 might have just got itself some serious competition at the $800 price point. :D

I don't know about the Verve sub vs a U2 set, I guess room placement options will dictate the best choice in that regard between those, but I'm willing to bet that the L5s will still prolly sound much better, even as L/R mains, than the Verves will.

Do you really think there will even be an Evo II, and if so, what's likely to be much different about them than, say using Threes with a U1 or U2 sub set?

Well, who knows about Evo II, but since Evo is so popular, I can't imagine not. If I were to do Evo, it would have all metal drivers, dual 6" midbass, 2" dome *or* a SEAS Excel and then make it with a quick disconnect crossover board so you can tri-amp it with an Xd amp. We shall see! They'd be foolish not to do it.

If I were to do Evo, it would have all metal drivers, dual 6" midbass, 2" dome

Sounds a lot like a 3C to me. :D ;) :p :cool: :)

I honestly don't think NHT could make any major improvements to the Evo subs. Maybe some minor tweaks, but the Evo subs really are already so good right now as they are. Especially the W1s. Dual U1s IMO will pretty much hold their own against anything on music.

Hi all,

I've been pondering which setup would be best for my room:

I have 10x13'' bedroom, the speakers would be going along the 13" wall.

For a room this size, which setup would be the better one?

1. Two classic threes

2. 4 or 5 Absolute Zeros.

Is it possible that the threes might be too big for a room this size? Since the price is about the same, which one should i go for? Thanks

Hi all,


Is it possible that the threes might be too big for a room this size? Since the price is about the same, which one should i go for? Thanks

It depends on what else you need to fit in the room. I have 5 Threes in a similar room, but only a computer desk, chair, rack, and recliner additionally. I am able th get the front 3 away from the rooms boundries, along with the listening position. I also have room treatments.

While I haven't tried it with L5s as mains (and prolly won't, not even as an experiment),

I think I'm going to.

I was hoping it wouldn't be experimental, though.

:)

Sounds a lot like a 3C to me. :D ;) :p :cool: :)

Yeah, whipping out an M6 replacement would be pretty easy. But I'd love to see a BMC baffle like the Xd.

I honestly don't think NHT could make any major improvements to the Evo subs. Maybe some minor tweaks, but the Evo subs really are already so good right now as they are. Especially the W1s. Dual U1s IMO will pretty much hold their own against anything on music.

DSP!!!! (and prettier boxes :eek: )

For a room this size, which setup would be the better one?

1. Two classic threes

I'd go for the Threes unless you're getting a sub. Even then, the simplicity of a well set up stereo has a lot going for it in a small room. But there's nothing wrong with AZs and a sub.

... and then make it with a quick disconnect crossover board so you can tri-amp it with an Xd amp. We shall see! They'd be foolish not to do it.


Yeah, whipping out an M6 replacement would be pretty easy. But I'd love to see a BMC baffle like the Xd.

DSP!!!! (and prettier boxes :eek: )

Well, if it's basically a lot like a 3c which can also be vertically positioned just like a M5/M6 can, and since the Xd amp already has 4 channels anyway, why not just go ahead and make it so that each of the individual 4 drivers has it's own dedicated amp channel if you have to use one Xd amp per speaker instead of two (as you would have to in a tri-amp mode like you mentioned), or at least maybe provide that option if it's also left as it already is on the Xds with 1 Xd amp bi-amping a pair of speakers? :eek:

And if the Xd amp is already involved in said set up anyway, simply use it for the sub's DSP?

While the cost of this would prolly be enormous, it would allow one the option to start off with the speakers first that would work with their existing amps, then eventually and/or gradually upgrade to the amps, either all at once, or one at a time. So that would make the costs a little easier to digest over time instead of all at once.

Now I see better what you were getting at, a sort of hybrid of Xd/Classic lines, but would the hybrid also still include some of the Evo's trademarks as well, such as the M5's/M6's handy built in "room tuning" options, such as the boundary control adjustment switch, virtual FIG, etc., especially if there was no room correction?

Speaking of which, any word on the room correction for the Xds?

As for the BMC, since even the new Verves apparently will have it, it's prolly safe to assume that all future NHT product will till the next "latest and greatest" thing comes along to replace it. It is great though, the Xd satellites are SOLID!

Hi all,

I've been pondering which setup would be best for my room:

I have 10x13'' bedroom, the speakers would be going along the 13" wall.

For a room this size, which setup would be the better one?

1. Two classic threes

2. 4 or 5 Absolute Zeros.

Is it possible that the threes might be too big for a room this size? Since the price is about the same, which one should i go for? Thanks

You might want to also consider the M5 as well, especially if the speakers will be close to the wall (or on shelves), and/or if room is very reflective with a lot of windows, etc.

I think I'm going to.

I was hoping it wouldn't be experimental, though.

:)

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong here, I'm sure the Controller's built in DEQ would only do nothing but benefit the L5s. I was just saying that I'll personally never use L5s as mains or a center. But if you have a situation that required on wall speakers only for mains and/or a center, I can't think of anything better for the $$$ than a L5. :D

If nothing else, do get the Controller for the NHT model specific DEQ Allen, even if you ultimately go with another brand of amps. You simply can't get a better pre-amp for NHT speakers, PERIOD, even just for 2 channel.

With the Power5/2 amps though, the Controller can actually do diagnostics on them if there is ever a problem.

Even If you ever move away from NHT speakers to something else, Kal said in his review that the NHT electronics are among the very best separates he has ever experienced, regardless of brand. He used Paradigms in his review without even checking the NHT speaker built in DEQ.


For the price of the controller that might work. Plus if it gets the 1.3 update that would be good. I still don't know why people are not buy the controller and talking about it.
Allen

The Controller is pretty intriguing.
Enough that I am considering buying one and
using the AMPS from my Sony DA333ES receiver as a stopgap.

Is J&R an authorized NHT dealer?
I was on Amazon the other day and saw the NHT stuff with JandR as the seller.
Pricing on the Four was about $240 less than my dealer will do.
Maybe not enough to make me seriously consider it once shipping is added,
but it all adds up on a large system.

Is J&R an authorized NHT dealer?Not for selling over the web.
http://nhthifi.com/2006/store-online.html

But apparently their physical store is authorized (see the dealers in New York at nhthifi.com).

You might want to also consider the M5 as well, especially if the speakers will be close to the wall (or on shelves), and/or if room is very reflective with a lot of windows, etc.


The room only has one window, so it isnt very reflective, as for walls, it will be about 2 feet away from each wall at least. Is that enough?

Anymore opinions on whether I should go for M5/AZ/3's are welcome as well.

To sum up my room is 10x13.

Thanks everyone

The room only has one window, so it isnt very reflective, as for walls, it will be about 2 feet away from each wall at least. Is that enough?



Sure, assuming no near hard surfaces from furnature or TVs.

Is J&R an authorized NHT dealer?
I was on Amazon the other day and saw the NHT stuff with JandR as the seller.
Pricing on the Four was about $240 less than my dealer will do.
Maybe not enough to make me seriously consider it once shipping is added,
but it all adds up on a large system.

I'm really shocked, but perhaps shouldn't be, that they're so brazenly ignoring NHT's sales policies.

For the price of the controller that might work. Plus if it gets the 1.3 update that would be good. I still don't know why people are not buy the controller and talking about it.
Allen

Maybe cause they're too busy listening to it? :p :o :D :cool: ;) :)

The Controller is pretty intriguing.
Enough that I am considering buying one and
using the AMPS from my Sony DA333ES receiver as a stopgap.

Does the Sony have pre-ins for all channels? If so, that would work. In fact, when I first got my Controller, I didn't really at the time have a 5 or 7 channel power amp to put with it without taking one out of another system, and that was exactly what I did, use the power amp channels of an AVR for an interim basis, and it worked fine.

The room only has one window, so it isnt very reflective, as for walls, it will be about 2 feet away from each wall at least. Is that enough?

Anymore opinions on whether I should go for M5/AZ/3's are welcome as well.

To sum up my room is 10x13.

Thanks everyone


Sure, assuming no near hard surfaces from furnature or TVs.

Eric nailed it on the distance.

As for which speaker, if $$$ is not an issue, I would suggest eliminating the AZs and focus on choosing either the Threes or M5s.

Since this has sort of evolved into the official, all inclusive NHT thread, not to mention all the talk about the Controller, what amps, pre-pros, AVRs, integrateds, pre-amps, stereo receivers, etc. are you all using (or have used) with your NHTs?

They also don't charge for attitude or arrogance or any of those other wonderful things you get from high-end companies if you're willing to spend enough.

Yep, take the ST4 for example before it was very recently discontinued. Try to show me a better overall speaker that retailed for $1000 or less, much less one that is more or less "full range". You can't.

Here is a link to some information on Verve. Full info will be on our website soon.

http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9686574-1.html?tag=nl.e722

One thing I'd like to correct is that the Verve subwoofer, the V-woofer, is not available separately. It is only sold as part of the Verve system.

Hmm, that's too bad. It might have sold a few units if available separately.

Thanks for the link Jack.

After doing a bit of listening i made a major NHT purchase. I got a pair of classic threes for 2 channel music listening with a sunfire sub, and a home theater rig made up of the L5 evolution series and some in ceilings.

I just wall mounted 3 L5 monitors and a pair of IC4 speakers to use in conjunction with a pioneer VSX59 reciever that i was using prior. My problem is that im trying to install the U1 subwoofer with the A1 and X1 and cannot seem to get the u1 to work properly.

Initially when i was going through the auto setup (MCAAC) for the pioneer, it detected a subwoofer and played back a test tone. Afterwards when i went back to test the system with a dvd (i-robot in DTS) i noticed that i wasnt getting anything from the sub. soon thereafter the crossover went into standby.

I have LFE from the reciever to LFE in on the X1 and LFE out from the X1 to the rca input for the A1 amp.

After taking a second look at my connections and looking at the manual i tried different configurations but was not able to fix the problem. Upon going back to the auto setup function i was also no longer able to get a test tone to play anymore.

Anyone have an idea what im doing wrong?

Does anyone know if the verve speakers will be magnetically shielded? I noticed the L5's are not so I was wondering if the verve's would be.

Please reread the Evolution manual. In all three of the possible setups, the LFE output on the X1 is never connected to the input of the A1 amplifier. The subwoofer output on the X1 should be connected to the input of the A1 amplifier.

Rob,

The V-large and V-small satellites are magnetically shielded. The V-woofer is not.

The addition of a new speaker line is going to require a firmware update to the Controller, is it not?

Anybody know if there is currently a vehicle to accomplish this?

Download to PC and update via the NHT bus over ye ole home network? That would be dreamy! Feel free to wake me up...

Here's more info on Verve from Twice:

NHT Hopes To Hit Nerve With Verve
By Joseph Palenchar -- TWICE, 2/13/2007 11:42:00 AM

Benicia, Calif. — NHT hopes to hit a nerve with its Verve home theater speaker system, which incorporates the brand’s first speakers targeted to owners of flat-panel displays. They will ship in late March.

Verve also marks NHT’s first use of “coaxially mounted” drivers, and represents “the first of a number of lifestyle approaches” to selling speakers, said executive Chris Byrne. Dealers are less inclined to buy a company’s series of speakers and more inclined to buy an application or solution, he said.

Verve’s two three-way satellites feature shallow depths, narrow widths, curvy baffle, integrated speaker stands and wall-mount option. They and a powered subwoofer are in gloss black to match the color of the newest flat-panel TVs.

Verve three-way satellites consist of a 10.5-inch by 5.5-inch by 6.25-inch speaker suitable for surround channels and a larger 15.5- by 5.5- by 6.25-inch satellite. The larger model features coaxially mounted 0.75-inch tweeter and 3-inch midrange flanked by two 4-inch woofers. It can be used horizontally or vertically for front-channel use. The smaller Verve, designed for vertical use, features separate 0.75-inch tweeter, 3-inch midrange and one 4-inch woofer.

The acoustic-suspension subwoofer is only 14 by 24 by 6 inches, enabling it to fit against a wall, alongside a couch, or under a table. The enclosure packs in a 200-watt amp and two active 10-inch drivers to deliver bass down to 40Hz. It’s matched to the satellites so needs no filter or phase controls, NHT said.

Verve speakers can be packaged by dealers in a variety of configurations, with a 2.1 system incorporating the larger satellites at a suggested $1,359 and the 5.1 system adding the two smaller satellites for the surround channels at $1,999. The 5.1 system packaged with NHT’s amplifier and preamp/surround processor would cost $6,750.

After doing a bit of listening i made a major NHT purchase. I got a pair of classic threes for 2 channel music listening with a sunfire sub, and a home theater rig made up of the L5 evolution series and some in ceilings.

I just wall mounted 3 L5 monitors and a pair of IC4 speakers to use in conjunction with a pioneer VSX59 reciever that i was using prior. My problem is that im trying to install the U1 subwoofer with the A1 and X1 and cannot seem to get the u1 to work properly.

Initially when i was going through the auto setup (MCAAC) for the pioneer, it detected a subwoofer and played back a test tone. Afterwards when i went back to test the system with a dvd (i-robot in DTS) i noticed that i wasnt getting anything from the sub. soon thereafter the crossover went into standby.

I have LFE from the reciever to LFE in on the X1 and LFE out from the X1 to the rca input for the A1 amp.

After taking a second look at my connections and looking at the manual i tried different configurations but was not able to fix the problem. Upon going back to the auto setup function i was also no longer able to get a test tone to play anymore.

Anyone have an idea what im doing wrong?

You do in fact have it hooked up correctly, as quoted in bold above, if you mean one of the X1's sub outs (not the LFE out) is connected to the input on the A1. Is the X1 set to mono?

Did you make sure that you set your AVR to sub on (or yes), and crossover to 80 Hz?

Assuming that, sub LFE trim setting on the AVR and/or the gain settings, both master and LFE on the X1?

That would be dreamy! Feel free to wake me up...

I thought you were Sneezy, not Sleepy. :p

Mark,

I'm sorry, but Mikaow definitely has the X1 connected to the A1 incorrectly. Go to the NHT website and download the Evolutions owner's manual. Look at sections 6.1, methods 1, 2 and 3. In all three of these, there is never anything connected to the LFE output on the X1.

The LFE input and output on the X1 are in parallel. If you connect it the way Mikaow has it connected, the X1 is not even in the signal path between the receiver and the A1. If you go to the NHT site, download the X2 owner's manual. It has a block diagram of the processing in it. The diagram is accurate for the X1.

The 5.1 system packaged with NHT’s amplifier and preamp/surround processor would cost $6,750.

Do you think NHT seriously believes that anyone who buys a Verve package is really going to also buy a Controller/Power5 and/or Power2 to go with them? :p :confused: :o :eek: :rolleyes:

Mark,

I'm sorry, but Mikaow definitely has the X1 connected to the A1 incorrectly. Go to the NHT website and download the Evolutions owner's manual. Look at sections 6.1, methods 1, 2 and 3. In all three of these, there is never anything connected to the LFE output on the X1.

The LFE input and output on the X1 are in parallel. If you connect it the way Mikaow has it connected, the X1 is not even in the signal path between the receiver and the A1. If you go to the NHT site, download the X2 owner's manual. It has a block diagram of the processing in it. The diagram is accurate for the X1.

I know Jack, I was trying to ask him if he meant he had it hooked up by the X1's sub out to the A1, not LFE out, even though he did say LFE out.

The acoustic-suspension subwoofer is only 14 by 24 by 6 inches, enabling it to fit against a wall, alongside a couch, or under a table. The enclosure packs in a 200-watt amp and two active 10-inch drivers to deliver bass down to 40Hz. It’s matched to the satellites so needs no filter or phase controls, NHT said.

Hmm, looks like the sub is nothing at all like what we were hoping for. :(

A pair of SB3s would almost match it (which is saying a lot for the SB3s).

I thought you were Sneezy, not Sleepy. :p

I was rewarded for my 20 years of service to Dwarves Incorporated by being allowed the privilege of absorbing Sleepy's duties when he was downsized last year.

:)

Bless you! :D

The LFE input and output on the X1 are in parallel. .

Methinks it is better labeled "LFE Passthrough" as I never totally understood that one either.

Do you think NHT seriously believes that anyone who buys a Verve package is really going to also buy a Controller/Power5 and/or Power2 to go with them? :p :confused: :o :eek: :rolleyes:

Hey, one can always hope. Plenty of rich guys out there that can't get the speakers they want, so they compensate with electronics. One customer of mine, I know, bought the Controller/Power5 with his AZs just to get even with his wife.

Hmm, looks like the sub is nothing at all like what we were hoping for. :(

I can't imagine that there isn't more than 40hz there, but who knows? Maybe the Controller will help it out there or maybe it's a misprint. The other thought is that it may be done purposely in case it's mounted on the walls - too much vibration there could be annoying.

BTW, am I the only one that wonders what an exotic version of the NHT Three might sound like with beryllium domes and maybe a magnesium midbass? I almost don't even care what it might cost, but I suspect it would be a lot. Well, hard to say what a Be 2" dome might cost. Probably $300 each or more at cost, plus the tweeter, plus the midbass, so that would add about $4000 to the retail. But if the price came down because of manufacturing.......wow.

I do know that the aluminum dome array isn't cheap, having had people vandalize about 8 of them already. One of these days, I'm going to be on the news because I actually catch someone doing it.

I do know that the aluminum dome array isn't cheap, having had people vandalize about 8 of them already. One of these days, I'm going to be on the news because I actually catch someone doing it.

Such a shame. Go into Best Buy or CC and EVERY dome tweeter is punched in.

I have tried plugging the rca cable into both the LFE out and the SUB OUT portion, the problem is when i am trying to calibrate the Elite reciever i cannot get it to output a test tone when i try to manually calibrate the channel level.

When i first used the auto calibration it detected the sub and set it to +5.5 which i thought was strangely high. Right now when i go back to the MCAAC to try and get a test tone to output i cannot get a test tone to output at all.

I have the subwoofer to YES and the crossover set at 80.

I am stumped. Any additional help would be appreciated.

Do you have the X1 set to mono, the sub out from the receiver attached to the left input on the X1 and the A1 attached to the left subwoofer out?

If the crossover is going into standby under those circumstances and the receiver is turned up sufficiently loud, it sounds like it's not getting a signal from the receiver. Is the X1 and A1 set to auto on?

The addition of a new speaker line is going to require a firmware update to the Controller, is it not?

Anybody know if there is currently a vehicle to accomplish this?

Download to PC and update via the NHT bus over ye ole home network? That would be dreamy! Feel free to wake me up...


I'm getting the feeling this was a really stupid question... :o

Not stupid, but certainly that is all possible, well, scheduled actually. No need to dream....

Mikaow,

Just follow the appropriate wiring diagram and control settings in the Evolution manual for your system. If you then don't get any subwoofer output, remove the X1 from the system. Connect the receiver output directly to the input on the A1. If you still don't get any subwoofer output, then something is wrong with your receiver. If you do get subwoofer output, then something is wrong with the X1 crossover.

Sneezy,

We are coming out with a firmware update to the Controller that includes Verve along with older NHT speaker products. This will be realeased soon.

We will also have a very simple distribution method for the updated firmware. In the long term we will probably enable the Controller to update software via the NHTBus, but there is not date on this.

Methinks it is better labeled "LFE Passthrough" as I never totally understood that one either.

If my memory serves me correctly, it says something in the Evo manual about go to the NHT web site to learn more about the LFE out on the X1, but the web page it gave an address for has long been gone now.

BTW, am I the only one that wonders what an exotic version of the NHT Three might sound like with beryllium domes and maybe a magnesium midbass? I almost don't even care what it might cost, but I suspect it would be a lot. Well, hard to say what a Be 2" dome might cost. Probably $300 each or more at cost, plus the tweeter, plus the midbass, so that would add about $4000 to the retail. But if the price came down because of manufacturing.......wow.

I do know that the aluminum dome array isn't cheap, having had people vandalize about 8 of them already. One of these days, I'm going to be on the news because I actually catch someone doing it.

Wonders, yes. Thinks it's worthwhile? Nah. At that price + amplification, get the Xd...

Academically interesting, but it seems like pracitcally there are better ways to spend the money.

I'm getting the feeling this was a really stupid question... :o

Sorry, I didn't meant to imply it was a stupid question (if that was directed at me). It's just that I don't see too many people, if any at all, shelling out $4700 (at retail) for all the amplification and processing of a $2000 (again, at full retail) set of speakers. Especially with a 200 watt X 5 power amp for those little Verves. :eek: :p

Wonders, yes. Thinks it's worthwhile? Nah. At that price + amplification, get the Xd...

Academically interesting, but it seems like pracitcally there are better ways to spend the money.

Different, but kind of related, one could actually buy a set of Xds for less than a Verve package and a Controller/Power5 combo would cost together. :eek:

Sorry, I didn't meant to imply it was a stupid question (if that was directed at me). It's just that I don't see too many people, if any at all, shelling out $4700 (at retail) for all the amplification and processing of a $2000 (again, at full retail) set of speakers. Especially with a 200 watt X 5 power amp for those little Verves. :eek: :p


No no, wasn't directed at you at all. Just my silly impatience at lack of response and/or possible lack of confidence in my ability to absorb information already disclosed. I should have that checked, anybody know a good head-shrink? :p

The reason I was curious is that I am seriously considering the Controller to replace the Denon I am currently using. Updating the controller via the ethernet connection would be very handy since I have all of my gear bolted into a rack which is built into a closet. So, to use the RS232 connection would require pulling the rack etc. Much easier if I could just use my network to do it. Not that important really, especially since I don't OWN any of the speakers it affects (and knowing that makes my previous "stupid" statement seem even more silly).

I noticed the verve has a coaxial design. I am unfamiliar with this type of speaker and was wondering if anyone could tell me what the advantages/disadvantages of this design are compared to other speakers.

It's sort of like a car speaker's layout. Someone back in the early 90s, I want to say it might have been Celestion or maybe OHM Acoustics, had a home speaker available with this, claiming that all the notes, highs and lows alike, originated from the same point in space, but it obviously hasn't been too popular in the home speaker market.

Not that important really, especially since I don't OWN any of the speakers it affects (and knowing that makes my previous "stupid" statement seem even more silly).

Do you have older NHTs? If so, as Jack stated, there will soon be updates for the Controller for all older NHT product as well. A few 3.3, 2.9, VT3, and maybe even VT-2.4 and VT2 owners might get one then.

Nah, just the L5s. The wife really likes the sound of the Fours with her preferred style of music though. If (when, actually) I pick up a Controller I think there is a set of those in her future along with the replaced Denon. Anything to keep her off of my rack. She really liked the Veritas 2.4s as well, which I found interesting. She didn't know the price difference.

Hmm, I think shes says something similar about me and her rack...

:eek:

Nah, just the L5s.

Then you do in fact already own speakers that the Controller affects after all.

The wife really likes the sound of the Fours with her preferred style of music though. If (when, actually) I pick up a Controller I think there is a set of those in her future along with the replaced Denon. Anything to keep her off of my rack. She really liked the Veritas 2.4s as well, which I found interesting. She didn't know the price difference.

If the Controller's DEQ affects the Fours anything at all like it does the ST4s, it will make an obvious, noticeable improvement, especially in the bass.

Hmm, I think shes says something similar about me and her rack...

:eek:

LOL! I'm not touching that one (either figuratively or literally). :D

I'm looking for opinion and guidance on (I think) a simple question. I have a 7.1 setup with C4s up front along with a C3c. My side surrounds are SB3s and rears are SuperOnes. It's time to retire the SuperOnes with C3s. Should I just put the C3s at the rear or should I move the SB3s to the rear and put the C3s at the side? Or wouldn't it make any difference at all...? :confused:

Thanks in advance.

If nothing else, do get the Controller for the NHT model specific DEQ Allen, even if you ultimately go with another brand of amps. You simply can't get a better pre-amp for NHT speakers, PERIOD, even just for 2 channel.

With the Power5/2 amps though, the Controller can actually do diagnostics on them if there is ever a problem.

Even If you ever move away from NHT speakers to something else, Kal said in his review that the NHT electronics are among the very best separates he has ever experienced, regardless of brand. He used Paradigms in his review without even checking the NHT speaker built in DEQ.

Mark do you have a power 5 and power 2 in your set up. What do you think about the amps. One thing that seems wrong to me is why the power 5 doesn't have a NHT Bus outlet for the power 2.
Allen

Yeah, strangely, the Power2 has the Bus outlet to pass on to the Power5. It apparently can sense the Power5 and if it's not there, it turns on automatically for stereo, but if a Power5 is there, then it only comes on for the rears. What they didn't consider is that some of us are using dual Power5s in systems and I don't know if it will work with some sort of splitter or not.

I'm looking for opinion and guidance on (I think) a simple question. I have a 7.1 setup with C4s up front along with a C3c. My side surrounds are SB3s and rears are SuperOnes. It's time to retire the SuperOnes with C3s. Should I just put the C3s at the rear or should I move the SB3s to the rear and put the C3s at the side? Or wouldn't it make any difference at all...? :confused:

Thanks in advance.

Since more soundtrack information is on the sides than the rears, I say put the Threes at the sides and the SB3s at the rear in order to keep things as closely matched as possible.

Ahh! Didn't know that. Thanks Mark - much appreciated. :)

John, is it safe to stack a Controller or another Power5/2 on top of a Power5/2, or does it need the clearance for cooling?

Mark do you have a power 5 and power 2 in your set up. What do you think about the amps. One thing that seems wrong to me is why the power 5 doesn't have a NHT Bus outlet for the power 2.
Allen

Since John has already answered you, I'll tell you Allen, what I'd really like to see more than anything from NHT now is a digital AVR, or even better yet, a digital integrated multi channel amp/processor (without a tuner) with NHT's model specific DEQ, where the signal is kept in the digital domain all the way. To me, that makes more sense than separates, where the pre-pro outputs an analog signal via RCA cables to the digital power amps.

What are your thoughts on this John?

Ahh! Didn't know that. Thanks Mark - much appreciated. :)
You're welcome, but don't just take my word for it, try it both ways yourself and see which you like better. :cool:

BTW, congrats on the Fours, Threes, and 3C.

Henceforth and herein the NHT Classic Series is to be referred to
with a "C" at the beginning.

The abbreviations will be: CAZ, C2, C2c, C3, C3c, C4 for the "new" line.

I think elstumbo did it first, but kennyo's recent post reminded me.

All in favor?

:) .

Yeah, strangely, the Power2 has the Bus outlet to pass on to the Power5. It apparently can sense the Power5 and if it's not there, it turns on automatically for stereo, but if a Power5 is there, then it only comes on for the rears. What they didn't consider is that some of us are using dual Power5s in systems and I don't know if it will work with some sort of splitter or not.


I didn't know it was on the power 2 I thought you had to have a separate hub to hook both amps up.
Allen

Since John has already answered you, I'll tell you Allen, what I'd really like to see more than anything from NHT now is a digital AVR, or even better yet, a digital integrated multi channel amp/processor (without a tuner) with NHT's model specific DEQ, where the signal is kept in the digital domain all the way. To me, that makes more sense than separates, where the pre-pro outputs an analog signal via RCA cables to the digital power amps.

What are your thoughts on this John?

I could see this being very good if the price is right.
Allen

Not only would a receiver sell like crazy since NHTs are often in the homes of bargain hunters that don't own separates, but I'd like to see a multi-zone receiver that has EQ curves for all the architectural product. Or digital zone amps with EQs pre-loaded.

BTW, since I opened up another pair of Twos, I got a chance to do a bit of A/Bing. The Threes are a huge upgrade over the Twos. The Twos sound fine, but when you turn on the Threes, *wow*. Totally different league. Much more detail, more presence, deeper bass, a bunch of other things. Kinda depressing, actually.

what about compared to AZ's? so far almost every comment I have read has actually had people either outright saying they preferred the AZ's to the C2's or at least hinting that they thought it might be case even if they didn't want to quite say it. alos heard something about the AZ had abalance closer to the C3 than to the C2. i'm sure the C3's are better, but in what ways and is it over 2x the price better?

Would a L,R C3 with an AZ center sound weird or match ok (and 2 AZ in the rear)?

Stumbo: Yeah, exactly right. And as you noticed, the AZ is always *competitive* with the other two even if it's not quite the best in all categories.



Yeah, I completely agree. When I first got my SB1s for surround, I started out by hooking them up as fronts, and at first, I wondered why I'd bothered to pay more for the SB3s. But switching back to the SB3s, that went away relatively quickly :-)

As far as the "how does it sound without the sub" question, I asked the same thing about the SB3 when I first auditioned, which isn't quite as remarkable as the SB1, but impressive anyway.

Back to the original subject... funny how there's only 3 Hz difference of bass extension between the AZ and the SB1, according to the specs. But it's suprisingly noticeable.

but did you find the C3's to be much 2x better than the AZ's?
not just only when you really strain to hear a difference, but very clearly better (ignoring bass differences, since I do have a sub)?

The Twos are a better speaker if you prefer a warmer balance, greater output or deeper bass. If you prefer imaging and more upper midrange detail, then the AZs are better. 5 AZs and dual Tens would be a killer small system.

I felt that the midrange in the C2s was slightly recessed but liked the tweeter.
I have not heard the CAZs, but both John and I thought that because the CAZs had
a smaller woofer that it would do the midrange a little better.

Speaking of which, any word on the room correction for the Xds?

Yeah, is this going to happen?

The Twos are a better speaker if you prefer a warmer balance, greater output or deeper bass. If you prefer imaging and more upper midrange detail, then the AZs are better. 5 AZs and dual Tens would be a killer small system.

thanks.

any comments on C3 vs. AZ's? i've read good things about both, but nobody seems to really want to carefully compare the two (i haven'thad time to catch up with every last msg here,but so far haven'tseen it done here or elsewhere). i'm pretty sure i'd clearly prefer the C3 over the twos and suspect even the AZ's over the twos since i dont like the talk about midbass humps and recessed, less detailed upper midrange and i do have a sub (even if not, highly doubt the twos would be enough of an improvement for the cost to be worth it to me). perhaps the threes would be though....

i currently have 3 AZ's for L,R,C and an Infinity Infinitesmal ServoSub (and temporarily, the perhaps ridiculous setup for rears: using the two main fronts (5-1/8" woofer, 1-15/16" tweeter, 13/16" dome super tweeter; supposedly titanium drivers or whatever; 6ohms;87dB;60-20,000 ported supposedly) from my yamaha mini-system but they are driven by the mini's amp and not the one driving the L,C,R and sub. the main speakers for the mini are servo type and can not be plugged into my main receiver.the rears that came with the system are worthless)

i was thinking of either:

1. getting a couple more AZ's or a couple of used superzeroes or something or other for the rears (or i supposed i could just stick with my weird combo that i have now, obviously doesn't allow for DTS/DD bitstreams in and i'm sure i'd need to carefully adjust for timing issues. i am watching much more hi def than old SD DVDs these days and it doesnt matter in that case as far as the bitstream goes)

2. moving L,R front AZ's to the rear and getting CThrees's for front L and R. Not sure if having an AZ for the center would mismatch to the C3's though (not enough money to get Three's plus a matched NHT center, would have to stick with an AZ for the center) or if the C3's are that much better than the AZ's to be worth the cost.

system would probably be used 65% movies and TV, 35% stereo music (all genres, including classical, except for heavy metal and country, haha).

It's sort of like a car speaker's layout. Someone back in the early 90s, I want to say it might have been Celestion or maybe OHM Acoustics, had a home speaker available with this, claiming that all the notes, highs and lows alike, originated from the same point in space, but it obviously hasn't been too popular in the home speaker market.

... and because of that the sounds will all arrive at your ears at the same time too. ;)

John what are your thoughts on the controler and power 2 & 5 amps with the M6 and m5. Other than Mark I haven't heard a lot of NHT owner say much about it.
Allen


I haven't tried it personally, but others have. Technically, there's no better match. Though, like Mark, I did quickly find that the Controller's mike wants to calibrate the subs about 6dB too hot. But I let it do its thing, then make tweaks that I think sound better to the ear. Or, for instance, if it says one speaker is 9.5ms away and the other is 10ms, I chalk it up to the mic being a bit off and fix it manually.

And all Evo sub owners with Controllers not using X1s definitely need to pay close attention to that. I mean, think about it, other than the sub output trim adjustment via the remote of the Controller itself, there is no sub output gain adjustment for the A1s if using no X1 like there is for virtually every other sub, like a Twelve for example.

While I hadn't tried it myself, I see no reason why you couldn't use an X1 with the Controller from the sub out, but yet still avoid the X1's high pass filters by using the Speaker Wizard menu to select M5s as mains and sub as either T6/U1 or T5/U2 with X1.

Update (for any who actually may care :o ), I'm going to put my X1 back in the system loop despite the Controller.

IMO, the ever present risk of overdriving and clipping the Evo subs since there is a complete and total lack of gain control for the A1 amp (other than the Controller's trim setting, which is too micro in nature IMO) just wasn't worth it for no other reason than to take the X1 out of the equation.

Unless I'm missing something here (and I've poured over the manual time and again), this is an issue which I don't know of any other way to address.

John, if I set the mains to M5 through the speaker wizard menu, is it safe to assume they are still being high passed at about 80 Hz or so?

As for the sub choice, I'll obviously have to set it for T5/U2 with X1, but if I simply run the Controller's sub out going into the X1's LFE input, I assume there will be no low pass filtering of any kind going on, so it would be best to hook it up to the X1's main L/R inputs via a "Y' splitter and set the X1's low pass filter at 80 Hz? I don't see why this wouldn't work.

I felt that the midrange in the C2s was slightly recessed but liked the tweeter.
I have not heard the CAZs, but both John and I thought that because the CAZs had
a smaller woofer that it would do the midrange a little better.

I can see why you both feel that way, and I agree. In general, I prefer a 5.25" mid bass driver, like in the XdS and M5, over a 6.5", but luckily that is irrelevant in the Threes/Fours due to their dedicated upper midrange dome drivers.

thanks.

any comments on C3 vs. AZ's? i've read good things about both, but nobody seems to really want to carefully compare the two (i haven'thad time to catch up with every last msg here,but so far haven'tseen it done here or elsewhere). i'm pretty sure i'd clearly prefer the C3 over the twos and suspect even the AZ's over the twos since i dont like the talk about midbass humps and recessed, less detailed upper midrange and i do have a sub (even if not, highly doubt the twos would be enough of an improvement for the cost to be worth it to me). perhaps the threes would be though....

i currently have 3 AZ's for L,R,C and an Infinity Infinitesmal ServoSub (and temporarily, the perhaps ridiculous setup for rears: using the two main fronts (5-1/8" woofer, 1-15/16" tweeter, 13/16" dome super tweeter; supposedly titanium drivers or whatever; 6ohms;87dB;60-20,000 ported supposedly) from my yamaha mini-system but they are driven by the mini's amp and not the one driving the L,C,R and sub. the main speakers for the mini are servo type and can not be plugged into my main receiver.the rears that came with the system are worthless)

i was thinking of either:

1. getting a couple more AZ's or a couple of used superzeroes or something or other for the rears (or i supposed i could just stick with my weird combo that i have now, obviously doesn't allow for DTS/DD bitstreams in and i'm sure i'd need to carefully adjust for timing issues. i am watching much more hi def than old SD DVDs these days and it doesnt matter in that case as far as the bitstream goes)

2. moving L,R front AZ's to the rear and getting CThrees's for front L and R. Not sure if having an AZ for the center would mismatch to the C3's though (not enough money to get Three's plus a matched NHT center, would have to stick with an AZ for the center) or if the C3's are that much better than the AZ's to be worth the cost.

system would probably be used 65% movies and TV, 35% stereo music (all genres, including classical, except for heavy metal and country, haha).

Why not get a pair of Threes now, get a 3C later, and then move the Az you would currently be using as a center to the rear center in a 6.1 system, or even get another Az too for the back in a 7.1 set up?

Yeah, is this going to happen?

Yes, but I am told they're waiting on DEQX to finish the software. But I do think they've made some recent strives in this regard based on what was demoed at CES.

John, if I set the mains to M5 through the speaker wizard menu, is it safe to assume they are still being high passed at about 80 Hz or so?

Yes, I think you then set the sub to NHT U1 with X1. Not sure though. The other safe option is to simply set the sub to a non-NHT sub.

Just an update. I asked for some upgrade advice here and due to an unexpectedly good income tax refund was able to ignore the pragmatic advice I received and instead swing for the fences. I now have:

Mains: Classic Fours (was ST4s)
Center: Classic Three C (was Boston VRC)
Surrounds: ST4s (was Classic Twos)
Rear Surrounds: Classic Twos (was Boston CR-77s)
Sub: SVS-PB10ISD

The Fours arrived today and I've been picking my jaw off of the floor all evening. Details I've never heard even in mediocre source material are popping out all over the place. I really don't have anything substantive to add to this thread with this post other than to say I am a really happy NHT guy right now.

Now about that 100wpc Denon receiver I'm using......we'll see if I can hold out until next year's refund before cratering and upgrading to feed these babies a bit more power. My track record suggests not..... :cool:

Congrats stormchaser, enjoy!

Just an update. I asked for some upgrade advice here and due to an unexpectedly good income tax refund was able to ignore the pragmatic advice I received and instead swing for the fences. I now have:

Mains: Classic Fours (was ST4s)
Center: Classic Three C (was Boston VRC)
Surrounds: ST4s (was Classic Twos)
Rear Surrounds: Classic Twos (was Boston CR-77s)
Sub: SVS-PB10ISD

The Fours arrived today and I've been picking my jaw off of the floor all evening. Details I've never heard even in mediocre source material are popping out all over the place. I really don't have anything substantive to add to this thread with this post other than to say I am a really happy NHT guy right now.

Now about that 100wpc Denon receiver I'm using......we'll see if I can hold out until next year's refund before cratering and upgrading to feed these babies a bit more power. My track record suggests not..... :cool:

I have been kicking around the idea of the Classic 4, glad to hear you enjoy.

Michael

I am a really happy NHT guy right now.

Which just reminds me that NHT is a company that makes great speakers, rather than a great company that makes speakers. Big difference!

A little media attention for our favorite speaker company today:

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/nht-flattens-its-new-verve-line-of-speakers-238405.php

Yes, but I am told they're waiting on DEQX to finish the software. But I do think they've made some recent strives in this regard based on what was demoed at CES.

That will make it just a little bit closer to being perfect. One more step in that direction anyway. :D

Yes, I think you then set the sub to NHT U1 with X1. Not sure though. The other safe option is to simply set the sub to a non-NHT sub.

When you were setting them up, what did you do to try to compensate for how hot it automatically sets the gain output level for the Evo sub's A1 amps, go in through the manual level set up menu and manually back the sub output level down?

And if so, does that cancel the preset DEQ settings for the subs, just the same as setting it to a non-NHT sub, and would it still work without the X1 then?

Let me ask you John, if you were setting up a surround system with the Controller based on and around Fours as main, what sub would you recommend to go along with it for HT purposes, a Twelve (since the Fours are already ported anyway, or sealed Evo subs, either a U2 set, a single U1, or even dual U1s?

Just an update. I asked for some upgrade advice here and due to an unexpectedly good income tax refund was able to ignore the pragmatic advice I received and instead swing for the fences. I now have:

Mains: Classic Fours (was ST4s)
Center: Classic Three C (was Boston VRC)
Surrounds: ST4s (was Classic Twos)
Rear Surrounds: Classic Twos (was Boston CR-77s)
Sub: SVS-PB10ISD

The Fours arrived today and I've been picking my jaw off of the floor all evening. Details I've never heard even in mediocre source material are popping out all over the place. I really don't have anything substantive to add to this thread with this post other than to say I am a really happy NHT guy right now.

Now about that 100wpc Denon receiver I'm using......we'll see if I can hold out until next year's refund before cratering and upgrading to feed these babies a bit more power. My track record suggests not..... :cool:

Congrats!

How much of an upgrade would you say the Fours are over the ST4s?

When you were setting them up, what did you do to try to compensate for how hot it automatically sets the gain output level for the Evo sub's A1 amps, go in through the manual level set up menu and manually back the sub output level down?

I just backed it off in the manual setup menu. I like the auto setup for a rough approximate, but I always tweak it by ear and also, if they're .5' off, I just match them because IMO it's probably just me sitting a little to the left or right. The sub volume is WAY off! Like 6dB.

And if so, does that cancel the preset DEQ settings for the subs, just the same as setting it to a non-NHT sub, and would it still work without the X1 then?

Yeah, just reduce the volume!

Let me ask you John, if you were setting up a surround system with the Controller based on and around Fours as main, what sub would you recommend to go along with it for HT purposes, a Twelve (since the Fours are already ported anyway, or sealed Evo subs, either a U2 set, a single U1, or even dual U1s?

Well, I wouldn't actually do that, but I guess I'd probably go with Twelves for similar characteristics if you're looking for more output/lower distortion or dual U1s if you're looking for more precise bass and I guess I'd cut the Fours off at 60-80Hz.

Hmm, if manually adjusting them like a non NHT sub eliminates the Controller's built in DEQ for them, that kind of negates the purpose in the first place. :mad: :(

I wonder why it calibrates them so hot?

Maybe if you show the sub on the speaker wizard set up menu as an Evo model with an X1, that there is still some DEQ that goes into them?

Regarding using the Controller with Fours along with a Twelve or U2/U1(s) sub(s), is it prolly safe to assume that if set accordingly on the speaker wizard menu, that the Controller automatically does exactly what Jack was talking about here?:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/1206nht34/index6.html

"Regarding comments made about low-end output, NHT recommends a couple different options if users want to extend bass output or extension.

If listeners want more bass output or control, do what Michael did, bi-amplify the towers with the X2 crossover and two A1 power amplifiers. This will give them more control of the bass as well as more output capability by increasing the amplifier power available to drive the 10" subwoofers over that of what a typical receiver can supply.

However, if even more bass extension is desired, it is necessary to use a subwoofer with bass response below 20Hz and very high output capability. This subwoofer should be low-passed around 40-50Hz, with the Four high-passed around the same frequency. This will probably require an active crossover with phase adjustment such as the X2, since the adjustments found in most surround processors will not be adequate to properly integrate the Four with the subwoofer. Ideally, end-users should use an acoustic measurement device too, provided they know how to use it properly.

We don't recommend using the Classic Fours with an external subwoofer covering the same frequency range. At some frequencies, the output from the external subwoofer(s) will add to that of the Fours and at some frequencies it will cancel the output from the Fours. The results will be worse than having no external subwoofer at all."

Which just reminds me that NHT is a company that makes great speakers, rather than a great company that makes speakers. Big difference!

Yep, just imagine of NHT had even half of Bose's marketing capabilities to go along with it's superb engineering. :eek: