Well, I contacted Matt Beadle over at NHT and will be sending in my X1 for the 20hz mod. I'm running 2 W1s in a 3000 cf room so I'm hoping 4 12s will be enough woofage to take the change. I'll post when I get the unit back.

TG

Well, I contacted Matt Beadle over at NHT and will be sending in my X1 for the 20hz mod. I'm running 2 W1s in a 3000 cf room so I'm hoping 4 12s will be enough woofage to take the change. I'll post when I get the unit back.

TG

Are you using them with the ref 3s.
Allen

Well, I contacted Matt Beadle over at NHT and will be sending in my X1 for the 20hz mod. I'm running 2 W1s in a 3000 cf room so I'm hoping 4 12s will be enough woofage to take the change. I'll post when I get the unit back.

TG

So how is 4 12s in a 1400cf room going to do I wonder?

Am I really nuts?

Anybody want to buy an SVS PC?

:)

So how is 4 12s in a 1400cf room going to do I wonder?

Am I really nuts?

Anybody want to buy an SVS PC?

:)

I have a U2 set (which is exactly half of what you are talking about here) in an approximate 900 CF room (about 10 x 10 x 9), and quite frankly, it is way too much sub for that little room.

But, the beauty of the X1 is that you can make it work. I have my boundary eq set all the way down to -6, and both the master and LFE/sub gains are set real low, to about the 9:00 position, but it works!

Now granted, while your room is as big and half again as mine described here, and while I do believe that a single U1 or a U2 set would be more than adequate for your room, dual W1s will work out OK in it because you can make it happen by dialing them in with the X1. :)

The Fours are going to get driven from a Sonos ZP80 and an Audio Innovations Alto.

How much power are these? Isn't the Alto 50 watts?

To my way of thinking, a pair of the U2s makes a more natural pedestal than does the U1. Two of the cabinets give you a combined height of 28" and are only 14" wide and deep. This also happens to be what I am pulling together for my HT. This combination makes for a very small footprint and looks nice enough configured this way; but am going a step further and having a stone box (facade) made to hide the subs, so that it seen as a monitor on top of a stone pedestal.

I am using Auralex Subdudes which adds a couple of inches in height. The Subdude is 15" square and fits nicely under the sub and happens to be a good aesthetic match for the Evo finish. The stone pedestal won't be touching the Subdude, so essentially I am creating a speaker stand that straddles the stacked subs. There will be a grill cloth on one side of the pedestal. I'm planning to place the pedestals so the subs are side-firing (outward), much like a T6 speaker system, but with better bass enclosures and driver alignment.

That idea would also work equally as well for Threes too in addition to M6s.

We still sell more Threes, but many of those are rear speakers going with Fours. At least 1/3rd of my Three customers would have stepped up to a 3.5 if it existed. About 25% of Four owners would have stepped up to a Five. Easily more than 25% of Three/Sub owners would have stepped up to a Five. Many bought them, not because they wanted sub/sat, but because they wanted powered woofers or acoustic suspension bass. Every Three that is sitting on a stand nationwide *should* have been a 3.5 sale at $1100-$1200/pr. Most of the "woulda/shoulda" group would upgrade if the 3.5 or Five came out.

God, I want 3.5s. And I *need* the Five. I can take a guy looking at B&W 703s and sell them a Four, but the guy *wants* to spend $3K!!! And I want to give him a killer $3K speaker, not a killer $1800 one! No, I can't sleep, why do you ask?

Good point about a speaker that is basically a floor-standing Three.

Plus, NHT did have the Last Stand for the Super-Audio Series as well as the cosmetically matching P5/P6 for the Evolutions. There is none at all for the Classics. :(

The question I have is do the Evolution series sound as good as the VT-3s (yes I read post #2995)?

I know of someone who recently got VT3s and a VC3 who thinks that they are better than T6s with an M6 center. ;)

How much power are these? Isn't the Alto 50 watts?

30W

Good point about a speaker that is basically a floor-standing Three.

Not only that, I'm not even counting the people that just won't spend as little as $1800 or all the people that need a small tower without too much bass, but deeper than the Three. Those are all lost sales for me. We picked up some PSBs though to handle that, but it makes my life more complicated.

John, I forget- do you propose a woofer for the '3.5'? Front, side, AC...?

30W

Were you planning in bi-amping them or something?

John, I forget- do you propose a woofer for the '3.5'? Front, side, AC...?

Dual front firing acoustic suspension 6.5" woofers.

No, plenty of power for what I need in a small room.

Martin,

Comparing a VT3 system to a T6 system is really splitting hairs. In some sense, the T6 system is a cost reduced VT3 system, with no loss in performance. I think the T6 system is a little more forward sounding. Better for Rock music. The VT3 system is slightly bigger (spatialy), more laid back sounding.

The bass sections of each system are similar. The VT3 has more bass amp power, but the B6 woofers are better designed and don't need as much. I think the B6 has about a 4-5dB output advantage above 50Hz. Both systems have about the same output capability in the 30Hz range. Distortion on the B6 is lower due to the more recent motor design.

The VR3/VC3 has a significant bass capability advantage over the M6 since they are quite a bit larger. They were designed so that they could be set to full range in a surround processor. In hindsight, if you can't have a REALLY full range speaker in the center and surrounds, you are better off using a speaker with a lot of 60Hz output capability and setting it to small. Thus the M6.

The M6 is designed to be more directional, in a very specific way, to avoid early lateral reflections. This was not done in the VT3 system. In a large well damped room, I think the VT3 system has slightly better overall tonal balance. In a smaller reflective room, the T6 has a big advantage in maintaining better imaging. The M6 has a slight 2kHz resonance in the midrange that we weren't able to get rid of. This bothers me both because I know it is there, and I hear it in the speaker. Or maybe I only hear it, because I know it's there:)

I've lived long term with the VT3 system, but not a T6 system. The T6 system is a lot easier to move and won't gash your leg open if you walk into it in the middle of the night!

Anyone with a subscription to Stereophile care to divulge which NHTs made their recommended components list and how they were rated? April's issue hasn't hit my news stand yet.

Anyone with a subscription to Stereophile care to divulge which NHTs made their recommended components list and how they were rated? April's issue hasn't hit my news stand yet.

Hasn't hit my mailbox yet either. Seems like it's run late the past few months...

Dual front firing acoustic suspension 6.5" woofers.

Please forgive my density (hey man, I did a lot of bad stuff over the years), but is that two 6.5s in addition to the 6.5 on top?
Could some sort of push-pull thing work with the two woofers?

Please forgive my density (hey man, I did a lot of bad stuff over the years), but is that two 6.5s in addition to the 6.5 on top?
Could some sort of push-pull thing work with the two woofers?

I believe he's talking about two 6.5s total, a 3.5 way configuration (1 tweeter, one midrange, 2 woofers).

Anyone with a subscription to Stereophile care to divulge which NHTs made their recommended components list and how they were rated? April's issue hasn't hit my news stand yet.

This was in April of 2005 I think. T6 Review (http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/405nht/index.html)


And this is a follow up. May 2005 (http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/405nht/index2.html)

Allen

Well, I contacted Matt Beadle over at NHT and will be sending in my X1 for the 20hz mod. Ditto, finally decided to do it as well. Also, if the factory does the mod your warranty is still valid. :cool:

Anyone with a subscription to Stereophile care to divulge which NHTs made their recommended components list and how they were rated? April's issue hasn't hit my news stand yet.

Based on Jack's comments in the first post at the top of the previous page about how Stereophile's review of the T6 in which it earned a Class A rating from them having absolutely zero affect whatsoever on any increased sales of the model, somehow I get the feeling that the people at NHT really won't be losing too much sleep over where their products are rated (or not) by Stereophile one way or the other. :p

The T6 system is a lot easier to move and won't gash your leg open if you walk into it in the middle of the night!

Sounds like words of experience there Jack. ;)

Martin,

Comparing a VT3 system to a T6 system is really splitting hairs. In some sense, the T6 system is a cost reduced VT3 system, with no loss in performance. I think the T6 system is a little more forward sounding. Better for Rock music. The VT3 system is slightly bigger (spatialy), more laid back sounding.

The bass sections of each system are similar. The VT3 has more bass amp power, but the B6 woofers are better designed and don't need as much. I think the B6 has about a 4-5dB output advantage above 50Hz. Both systems have about the same output capability in the 30Hz range. Distortion on the B6 is lower due to the more recent motor design.

The VR3/VC3 has a significant bass capability advantage over the M6 since they are quite a bit larger. They were designed so that they could be set to full range in a surround processor. In hindsight, if you can't have a REALLY full range speaker in the center and surrounds, you are better off using a speaker with a lot of 60Hz output capability and setting it to small. Thus the M6.

The M6 is designed to be more directional, in a very specific way, to avoid early lateral reflections. This was not done in the VT3 system. In a large well damped room, I think the VT3 system has slightly better overall tonal balance. In a smaller reflective room, the T6 has a big advantage in maintaining better imaging. The M6 has a slight 2kHz resonance in the midrange that we weren't able to get rid of. This bothers me both because I know it is there, and I hear it in the speaker. Or maybe I only hear it, because I know it's there:)

I've lived long term with the VT3 system, but not a T6 system. The T6 system is a lot easier to move and won't gash your leg open if you walk into it in the middle of the night!

I've recently gone from a T6 or M6/W1 system to a VT3 setup and in my room the VT3 sounds signicficantly better. My room is large and well damped. The lower mid-bass and the midrange is exactly where I hear the difference. Nice to get confirmation from "the" expert :)

The other very interesting comment is that it is generally thought that the VT3 is "brighter" sounding than the newer Evolutions. Jack's comment echo my feelings too, that they are actually smoother and still with detail.

I am planning on using the VT3's in a 70% music and multichannel setup. I'm planning on using M6's and L5's in a HT setup in another room .

As a former 3.3 owner, the VT3's are a perfect marriage of 3.3's and T6's.

James

I know of someone who recently got VT3s and a VC3 who thinks that they are better than T6s with an M6 center. ;)

I can see how anyone who liked the older, "hotter" tweeters of the Music and Video Tower Series would feel this way. :cool:

Hi Mark,
Thank you for the constructive comments. My first impression of the VT-3s was they are too bright! I confirmed this with very careful nearfield and farfield room measurements. Sitting position was flatter.

I would not say I prefer this as I am a "neutral audiophile" striving for a "flat" equipment/room condition.

Now, I am trying to knock this down with room treatments. Later I may try different speaker cables (NHT prefers plain wire).

The current setup does produce a level of upper end detail I have only heard in the most expensive systems, mainly using planar ribbons.

Sincerely,
Martin

I A/Bed VR 3s with M6s and found them to be just a tad brighter sounding to me. But this may be because the M6 has such controlled lateral dispersion.

Not only that, I'm not even counting the people that just won't spend as little as $1800 or all the people that need a small tower without too much bass, but deeper than the Three. Those are all lost sales for me. We picked up some PSBs though to handle that, but it makes my life more complicated.

Hi John,

This was a portion of the audiophile equation I overlooked (post #3017).

"We have the classic case of mixed priorities: house, family, neighbors or Hi-Fi system."

Disposable income!

Sincerely,
Martin

Exactly. Around half my customers can't (shouldn't?) afford Fours, but want them. 25% can afford them, the other 25% can afford more.

I A/Bed VR 3s with M6s and found them to be just a tad brighter sounding to me. But this may be because the M6 has such controlled lateral dispersion.

Hi John,
What's that quote? "You can fool some of the people..."

Then there are audiophiles. Ears which can detect what instruments can't measure?

Sincerely,
Martin

Heheheh an audiophile is someone who is self-fooled all of the time :)

Man, no wonder they don't come to my store very often......

Martin,

Comparing a VT3 system is...

I've lived long term with the VT3 system, but not a T6 system. The T6 system is a lot easier to move and won't gash your leg open if you walk into it in the middle of the night!

Hi Jack,
I agree with you 100%, including the "gash your leg open" part.

Big speaker (full range) small room(s) big problem sound wise.

Sincerely,
Martin

I've recently gone from a T6 or M6/W1 system to a VT3 setup and in my room the VT3 sounds signicficantly better. My room is large and well damped. The lower mid-bass and the midrange is exactly where I hear the difference. Nice to get confirmation from "the" expert :)

The other very interesting comment is that it is generally thought that the VT3 is "brighter" sounding than the newer Evolutions. Jack's comment echoe my feelings too, that they are actually smoother and still with detail.

I am planning on using the VT3's in a 70% music and multichannel setup. I'm planning on using M6's and L5's in a HT setup in another room .

As a former 3.3 owner, the VT3's are a perfect marriage of 3.3's and T6's.

James

Hi James,
I too have another room well suited to a smoother smaller speaker(s).

Now if I could just find a set of Evolutions in white (WAF).

Sincerely,
Martin

Evolution L5s in white.

Hi Mark,
Thank you for the constructive comments. My first impression of the VT-3s was they are too bright! I confirmed this with very careful nearfield and farfield room measurements. Sitting position was flatter.

I would not say I prefer this as I am a "neutral audiophile" striving for a "flat" equipment/room condition.

Now, I am trying to knock this down with room treatments. Later I may try different speaker cables (NHT prefers plain wire).

The current setup does produce a level of upper end detail I have only heard in the most expensive systems, mainly using planar ribbons.

Sincerely,
Martin


Hi Martin,

I think your saying that your initial impression was that the VT3 was too bright, and now feel you are getting a lot more detail you enjoy?

Are the VT3's toe'd in? What amplification? Lastly,how far back are you compared to the width of the speakers?

My room is pretty large and is well treated. I have maybe 1/4" of toe in and get a huge image and excellent soundstaging,

James

To add to what James posted above Martin, if you feel the VT3s are too "bright" for your tastes and too big for your room, you might want to check out a used pair of T5s if you can find them with an M5 center and either wall mounted L5s or M5s on shelves or stands for surrounds.

If you can't find a T5 pair, there is also always new or used M5s and P5 stands with U1(s) or U2 sub combinations.

As a former 3.3 owner, the VT3's are a perfect marriage of 3.3's and T6's.

James

They are indeed about as close to a cross between the 3.3s and T6s as you can possibly get. :cool:

For anyone who wants to have NHT do the 20Hz modification to their X1, go to the link below and read the section under nonwarranty repair. That is how the modification is classified. The cost is $50 and we take major credit cards. Make absolutely sure that you wait for customer service to send you an RA number and you put it on the OUTSIDE of the box. If the box doesn't have a valid RA number when we get it, we will refuse it.

Evolution L5s in white.

AS I implied (WAF)... that other room is not mine. New NHTs there, maybe not.

Sincerely,
Martin

Hi Martin,

I think your saying that your initial impression was that the VT3 was too bright, and now feel you are getting a lot more detail you enjoy?

Are the VT3's toe'd in? What amplification? Lastly,how far back are you compared to the width of the speakers?

My room is pretty large and is well treated. I have maybe 1/4" of toe in and get a huge image and excellent soundstaging,

James

Hi James,
You've got me pegged! I've had the VT-3s eight weeks.

Yes the VT-3s are toed in (2"). Amplifier Bryston 4BST. Speaker spread 9 feet centerline to centerline (projector screen in middle), 11' to 16' sitting distance, two rows of seating (typically for video). Stereo listening about 14 - 16 feet distance (depends) one row.
I am not done with placement yet. Toe at 2" helped alot with the reflection off the wall at the rear, 35' away. Sounded like Martin Logans (echo with head turned). I want to diffuse or kill the rear wall and add/try more absorbers to the side, off axis of the VT-3s. These speakers have alot more horizontal dispersion than my old ones and I'm getting more room interaction. Sounds phasey at times.

My comment of them being bright is only on complex loud stuff (rock). Less complex things don't load the room.
Diana Krall, Patricia Barber, Rod Stewart, The Maverics, Madeleine Peyroux, are to die for. On classical jazz, up beat new age pieces, big band you are there.
The sound stage is deep (how much ?), instruments and vocalists are exceptionally defined (scary), seperation goes way out to the sides extending to the rear sometimes 20 feet.
Then there's the bass. I'm still working on that to. When the program material calls for it (i.e. Virgil Fox, pipe organ) look out neighbors (Virgil Fox was a record too)!

Sincerely,
Martin

For anyone who wants to have NHT do the 20Hz modification to their X1, go to the link below and read the section under nonwarranty repair. That is how the modification is classified. The cost is $50 and we take major credit cards. Make absolutely sure that you wait for customer service to send you an RA number and you put it on the OUTSIDE of the box. If the box doesn't have a valid RA number when we get it, we will refuse it. You mean this link? :rolleyes:

Repair (http://nhthifi.com/2006/service-repair.html)

Jack Hidley,

Didn't want to hi jack this thread, please see my post concerning broken VT3.

Thanks.

Sc,

Yup, just like my post said "...the link below...";)

I just didn't say how far...

Off to F1 land.

And I'm off to Cabo San Lucas. Hasta la bye bye, suckers! :)

F1? Better hurry mate, race is tommorrow. Have fun. :cool:

Evolution L5s in white.

Hi John,
Did I read you correct? Evolution L5?

Sincerely,
Martin

Yes, it's an M5 in a stylish aluminum wall mount cabinet (white, black, silver). $499 each.

Hey, maybe now that silver is fading in popularity, NHT will finally see the wisdom a metallic bronze/copper look. And an outdoor version! Well, I won't get my hopes up, but......

(Writing this at the Phoenix airport)

After looking at Energy RC-70 Reference Connoisseurs, Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4's etc. I have decided on a pair of NHT fours + Three C + iC3 in-ceilings for my 5.1 HT room in my new basement development. The NHT's look fabulous, sound great and pass the WAF with flying colors. Furthermore they will complement our new Pioneer Elite Pro-1540 plasma (also gloss black). So far I have only been able to hear the system at a local chain with a Pioneer Elite VSX-84TSXi - not bad, considering this dealer does not sell much more than the usual Yamaha, Denon and Pioneer Elite AVR's. But I wonder how the NHT's will sound with, say mid-level separates? For now the NHT separates are out of my price range and I don't think I can obtain them here in Calgary, AB, Canada. Any suggestions for either a beefier AVR or mid-priced separates that might help the fours kick some extra ass? NB - the sales dude keeps telling me I need a Classic 10 sub to balance out the bass. The room is medium sized, fairly open to other parts of basement. What about another manufacturer's sub that will go lower than the fours for movies etc.?

WElcome Obanthedog. I think you made a great choice, but I'm biased. I'm not a fan of in ceiling speakers (but I've not heard the Classics). Is this a must?

Any suggestions for either a beefier AVR or mid-priced separates that might help the fours kick some extra ass?

I'm using older Parasound amps with a Audio Refinement prepro and my Threes sound great. I think there are a lot of options new and used, do you have a budget?

the sales dude keeps telling me I need a Classic 10 sub to balance out the bass

I'd like to hear his rationale, at first read, I think bullshit.

The room is medium sized, fairly open to other parts of basement. What about another manufacturer's sub that will go lower than the fours for movies etc.?

Tell us more about your room and listening habits.

My rear channel speaker options are limited. I am set on getting 3 M5s for the front but I'm not sure what to do for the rears. The best possible option in terms of astetics is a pair of iC4s in the ceiling. I would rather have a pair of L5s but there just isn't a good place to mount them in my home. Would a pair of L5s mounted to the ceiling horizontally be better than a pair of iC4s?

Yes, it's an M5 in a stylish aluminum wall mount cabinet (white, black, silver). $499 each.

Hey, maybe now that silver is fading in popularity, NHT will finally see the wisdom a metallic bronze/copper look. And an outdoor version! Well, I won't get my hopes up, but......

(Writing this at the Phoenix airport)

Metallic bronze/copper would be a Klipsch?

Sincerely,
Martin

Mr. Dog,

You do not need or want to use the Ten subwoofer with the Fours. We keep telling the dealers this, but they have been trained by Dolby for 15 years, that you must have a subwoofer.

If you want better bass, more output capability and more control over the bass in your room, get an X2 crossover with one or two A1 power amps and use this to biamp the Fours. This will give you very high output with an inexpensive receiver. It takes less floor space, will sound better than having a separate sub and gives you much more control over the bass in your room.

With all the recent discussion of VT3s, and since the owner's manual is not down-loadable form the NHT site, if anyone needs a copy, PM me your fax #.

Jack, if you guys need a copy to scan and post on the site, just let me know. :)

Mr. Dog,

You do not need or want to use the Ten subwoofer with the Fours. We keep telling the dealers this, but they have been trained by Dolby for 15 years, that you must have a subwoofer.



OK I am having a little trouble with this myself. Are you saying there is no room for a properly set up and calibrated .1 bottom feeder in a surround system using the Fours?

Well for one thing, the Ten, even two of them, are actually less sub(s) than the passive ones in the Fours, as the Four's have deeper extension.

Even if they were more sub than the Four's own however, read the following comments from Jack here:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/1206nht34/index6.html

"Regarding comments made about low-end output, NHT recommends a couple different options if users want to extend bass output or extension.

If listeners want more bass output or control, do what Michael did, bi-amplify the towers with the X2 crossover and two A1 power amplifiers. This will give them more control of the bass as well as more output capability by increasing the amplifier power available to drive the 10" subwoofers over that of what a typical receiver can supply.

However, if even more bass extension is desired, it is necessary to use a subwoofer with bass response below 20Hz and very high output capability. This subwoofer should be low-passed around 40-50Hz, with the Four high-passed around the same frequency. This will probably require an active crossover with phase adjustment such as the X2, since the adjustments found in most surround processors will not be adequate to properly integrate the Four with the subwoofer. Ideally, end-users should use an acoustic measurement device too, provided they know how to use it properly.

We don't recommend using the Classic Fours with an external subwoofer covering the same frequency range. At some frequencies, the output from the external subwoofer(s) will add to that of the Fours and at some frequencies it will cancel the output from the Fours. The results will be worse than having no external subwoofer at all. "

According to Jack recently on this thread, there is supposed to be an update soon for the Controller that will automatically do this if you have for example Fours and a Twelve sub with them.

If you go back and read that review from the link provided though, overlook and ignore what the reviewer said about the X2's high and low pass settings. If you use an X2 on the Fours, since it already has it's own built in fixed internal crossovers for the subs and lower mid drivers to and from each other, you need to jack the X2's low pass setting up as high as it will go, and if you use the X2's high pass outputs, turn them down as low as it will possibly go in order to help prevent and/or eliminate as much nasty double filtering from going on as possible.

Well for one thing, the Ten, even two of them, are actually less sub(s) than the passive ones in the Fours, as the Four's have deeper extension.

Even if they were more sub than the Four's own however, read the following comments from Jack here:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/1206nht34/index6.html

"Regarding comments made about low-end output, NHT recommends a couple different options if users want to extend bass output or extension.

If listeners want more bass output or control, do what Michael did, bi-amplify the towers with the X2 crossover and two A1 power amplifiers. This will give them more control of the bass as well as more output capability by increasing the amplifier power available to drive the 10" subwoofers over that of what a typical receiver can supply.

However, if even more bass extension is desired, it is necessary to use a subwoofer with bass response below 20Hz and very high output capability. This subwoofer should be low-passed around 40-50Hz, with the Four high-passed around the same frequency. This will probably require an active crossover with phase adjustment such as the X2, since the adjustments found in most surround processors will not be adequate to properly integrate the Four with the subwoofer. Ideally, end-users should use an acoustic measurement device too, provided they know how to use it properly.

We don't recommend using the Classic Fours with an external subwoofer covering the same frequency range. At some frequencies, the output from the external subwoofer(s) will add to that of the Fours and at some frequencies it will cancel the output from the Fours. The results will be worse than having no external subwoofer at all. "

According to Jack recently on this thread, there is supposed to be an update soon for the Controller that will automatically do this if you have for example Fours and a Twelve sub with them.

If you go back and read that review from the link provided though, overlook and ignore what the reviewer said about the X2's high and low pass settings. If you use an X2 on the Fours, since it already has it's own built in fixed internal crossovers for the subs and lower mid drivers to and from each other, you need to jack the X2's low pass setting up as high as it will go, and if you use the X2's high pass outputs, turn them down as low as it will possibly go in order to help prevent and/or eliminate as much nasty double filtering from going on as possible.


How do you get around the internal crossover in the speaker if you use and x2. I am guessing you take the jumpers off the 4's but would you still have some type of crossover for the woofer. On my 2.9 I took the metal jumper off and run to channels of full range power bi-amping the speakers but the crossover took care of the speaker for me. I thought it sounded better.

Now I agree with maybe running down to 30 or 40hz and crossing them over in the pre/amp and letting the sub pick up the bottom end 40hz>.
Allen

Mark, I know better than to argue acoustics and NHT with Jack (or you), but surely the Fours won't provide enough bass for all situations or tastes? I am thinking if you could place the sub within 1/4 wavelength at the XO point of the Fours, the bass would be additive.

Now I agree with maybe running down to 30 or 40hz and crossing them over in the pre/amp and letting the sub pick up the bottom end <40hz.

Bass management with a high pass of 40 Hz. would be nice, I'm not sure what does this.

How do you get around the internal crossover in the speaker if you use and x2.

I don't think you can. It would be nice if NHT provided a plan for those DIY types who like the idea of direct coupled amps/drivers.

With all the recent discussion of VT3s, and since the owner's manual is not down-loadable form the NHT site, if anyone needs a copy, PM me your fax #.

Jack, if you guys need a copy to scan and post on the site, just let me know. :)

Hi Mark,
I forwarded PDF files of the VT-3, VC-3, VR-3 Manuals to NHT for posting on their web site a couple of weeks ago.

Sincerely,
Martin

Did I mention that I'm in Mexico? :)

I wonder if there are any NHT dealers down here.......

Sorry if this has already been posted. Soundstage did a review of the Classic Three with measurements from the NRC.

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/nht_classic_three.htm

Overall a good review from a speaker that has obviously been well engineered as the measurements show. I've been keeping an eye on the NHT Classics since their release and so far have been impressed with the reviews.

The only disappointment has been the Three C. Even though it is a three way design it still unable to avoid the lobbing effect that plagues two way designs. I guess it does move the suckout further away from the critical part of the midrange

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/images/archivesart/1206nht.3.jpg

After looking at Energy RC-70 Reference Connoisseurs, Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4's etc. I have decided on a pair of NHT fours + Three C + iC3 in-ceilings for my 5.1 HT room in my new basement development. The NHT's look fabulous, sound great and pass the WAF with flying colors. Furthermore they will complement our new Pioneer Elite Pro-1540 plasma (also gloss black). So far I have only been able to hear the system at a local chain with a Pioneer Elite VSX-84TSXi - not bad, considering this dealer does not sell much more than the usual Yamaha, Denon and Pioneer Elite AVR's. But I wonder how the NHT's will sound with, say mid-level separates? For now the NHT separates are out of my price range and I don't think I can obtain them here in Calgary, AB, Canada. Any suggestions for either a beefier AVR or mid-priced separates that might help the fours kick some extra ass? NB - the sales dude keeps telling me I need a Classic 10 sub to balance out the bass. The room is medium sized, fairly open to other parts of basement. What about another manufacturer's sub that will go lower than the fours for movies etc.?

As far as receivers go, there's good number of us who use NAD's home theater receivers and are quite happy with them, although openly envious of NHT's sepparates. I have a T753 myself, and it works quite well although it doesn't have the burden of powering subs on my Classic 3s the way it does on your 4s, so you might consider another step or two up in the line.

The only disappointment has been the Three C. Even though it is a three way design it still unable to avoid the lobbing effect that plagues two way designs. I guess it does move the suckout further away from the critical part of the midrange

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/images/archivesart/1206nht.3.jpg
Where did this graph come from? It obviously was not a part of the soundstage review you posted. Can you point to the correct reveiw where this graph is used?

Thanks,
MF

It's from the Ultimate AV review. It's been linked here before but here it is again. One thing to keep in mind are the off axis mearsurements shown here are at 45 and 60 degrees. Pretty exterme but it does demonstrate that even three ways are not a magic bullet. As long as the drivers are horizontal there's always going to be lobbing.

http://ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/1206nht34/index5.html

It's from the Ultimate AV review. It's been linked here before but here it is again. One thing to keep in mind are the off axis mearsurements shown here are at 45 and 60 degrees. Pretty exterme but it does demonstrate that even three ways are not a magic bullet. As long as the drivers are horizontal there's always going to be lobbing.

http://ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/1206nht34/index5.html


Hence my crusade to promote 3 of the same speakers, with vertical orientation, at the sme height across te front.

Hence my crusade to promote 3 of the same speakers, with vertical orientation, at the sme height across te front.

Which is certainly ideal, but the logistics only work with wall-mounted flat panels or projection systems.

Believe me, I'd do it if I could.

WElcome Obanthedog. I think you made a great choice, but I'm biased. I'm not a fan of in ceiling speakers (but I've not heard the Classics). Is this a must?
I'm using older Parasound amps with a Audio Refinement prepro and my Threes sound great. I think there are a lot of options new and used, do you have a budget
I'd like to hear his rationale, at first read, I think bullshit.
Tell us more about your room and listening habits.

My main room is about 14' by about 19' by 9' with an entrance way on the side and and opening in the back (to the bar area). Because of windows and a coffered ceiling I cannot use the Threes for the rears - the in-ceilings will have to do. I will be listeing to a fair bit of music (I like a wide variety of genres) and movies of course. Lets say about a 50/50 split.

How do you get around the internal crossover in the speaker if you use and x2. I am guessing you take the jumpers off the 4's but would you still have some type of crossover for the woofer. On my 2.9 I took the metal jumper off and run to channels of full range power bi-amping the speakers but the crossover took care of the speaker for me. I thought it sounded better.

Now I agree with maybe running down to 30 or 40hz and crossing them over in the pre/amp and letting the sub pick up the bottom end 40hz>.
Allen

Allen, yes, you are right in that you do remove the jumpers to bi-amp/bi-wire, but there is no getting around the speaker's own fixed internal crossover unless you physically go in and disable it. Matter of fact, Jack has even stated a while back that is exactly what he did on his pair of 3.3s and he now uses an X2 for the crossover duties on them.

If you use an X2 on Fours, 3.3s, 2.9s, VT-2.4s, VT2s, VT-1.4s, etc., you should do as I already stated here:

If you use an X2 on the Fours, since it already has it's own built in fixed internal crossovers for the subs and lower mid drivers to and from each other, you need to jack the X2's low pass setting up as high as it will go, and if you use the X2's high pass outputs, turn them down as low as it will possibly go in order to help prevent and/or eliminate as much nasty double filtering from going on as possible.

or you will have some double filtering going on otherwise if you use the X2's filters.

Personally, if I were going to use an X2 on my Fours, I would just use a set of pre-outs (or from a "y" splitter if I didn't have a spare set) to run an unfiltered full range signal into the X2's inputs, and just turn the low pass filter all the way up as high it will go. I wouldn't use the X2's high pass outputs at all and just run an unfiltered full range signal straight to the Fours upper drivers from their amp. The Four's own built in fixed crossover at 125 Hz will take care of all the high and low pass filtering to the appropriate drivers from the bi-amping.

Mark, I know better than to argue acoustics and NHT with Jack (or you), but surely the Fours won't provide enough bass for all situations or tastes? I am thinking if you could place the sub within 1/4 wavelength at the XO point of the Fours, the bass would be additive.



Bass management with a high pass of 40 Hz. would be nice, I'm not sure what does this.



I don't think you can. It would be nice if NHT provided a plan for those DIY types who like the idea of direct coupled amps/drivers.

Eric, Jack has already stated what you need to do add a sub to the Fours that I quoted a few posts back:

"However, if even more bass extension is desired, it is necessary to use a subwoofer with bass response below 20Hz and very high output capability. This subwoofer should be low-passed around 40-50Hz, with the Four high-passed around the same frequency. This will probably require an active crossover with phase adjustment such as the X2, since the adjustments found in most surround processors will not be adequate to properly integrate the Four with the subwoofer. Ideally, end-users should use an acoustic measurement device too, provided they know how to use it properly.

We don't recommend using the Classic Fours with an external subwoofer covering the same frequency range. At some frequencies, the output from the external subwoofer(s) will add to that of the Fours and at some frequencies it will cancel the output from the Fours. The results will be worse than having no external subwoofer at all."

It's all subjective of course, but I'm running my Fours without a sub, and I don't really feel as though they are lacking in any way whatsoever in bottom end, even on movies like Pirates of the Caribbean 1, Master & Commander, even War of the Worlds. You can "feel" 'em! :)

Of course, I am driving them with a Controller/Power5, and the Power5 based on HTM's bench test spec measurements does have some serious power behind it. I'm willing to bet at least 300 watts minimum into the Four's 6 Ohm load, and prolly even more than that, even with all 5 channels driven. :eek:

If I were going to add a sub to the Fours though on a conventional system (by that, I mean non-NHT Controller/Power5 electronics), I still prolly wouldn't use an X2/A1 set up. I would just cross them over at 40 Hz for the main L/R (if the AVR or processor is capable of that, HK's AVRs for example, allow multiple crossover points) and let the sub handle everything below that. Like Matt alluded to in post #3078 and Jack in post #3069, a typical AVR will be better able to handle the Fours much better if freed up from being required to supply the deep bass/LFE power from being high passed.

Hi Mark,
I forwarded PDF files of the VT-3, VC-3, VR-3 Manuals to NHT for posting on their web site a couple of weeks ago.

Sincerely,
Martin

Good deal Martin! Maybe owners of other older speaker models that have manuals will do the same on others that NHT doesn't have up, like the 3.3, VT-2.4, etc.

Ask not what NHT can do for you, but what can you do for NHT! :D

Did I mention that I'm in Mexico? :)

I wonder if there are any NHT dealers down here.......

How many Pesos does a pair of Fours and the Controller/Power5 cost? XDs too for that matter. :D

It's from the Ultimate AV review. It's been linked here before but here it is again. One thing to keep in mind are the off axis mearsurements shown here are at 45 and 60 degrees. Pretty exterme but it does demonstrate that even three ways are not a magic bullet. As long as the drivers are horizontal there's always going to be lobbing.

http://ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/1206nht34/index5.html

Yeah, but look at HTM's measurements on the Fours, Threes and 3C here:

http://nhthifi.com/2006/press/reviews/new/HomeTheaterReview4-07.pdf

According to his review you linked, Michael Fremer was talking about using the X2's high and low pass crossover filters, or either the AVR or processor's crossovers on the Fours when bi-amping them, which goes directly against what I have already recently pointed out to prevent double filtering from going on. No damned wonder his review wasn't as glowing as most others have been! :rolleyes:

Now if even I know better than that, then surely someone of Fremer's experience damned well ought to too. Even though he is not the one who actually did the measuring, it makes me wonder if some of them really know WTF they are doing there. I personally trust HTM's measurements better.

And don't even get John started on Tom Nousine's sub measurements at S&V! :p

So far I have only been able to hear the system at a local chain with a Pioneer Elite VSX-84TSXi - not bad, considering this dealer does not sell much more than the usual Yamaha, Denon and Pioneer Elite AVR's. But I wonder how the NHT's will sound with, say mid-level separates? For now the NHT separates are out of my price range and I don't think I can obtain them here in Calgary, AB, Canada. Any suggestions for either a beefier AVR or mid-priced separates that might help the fours kick some extra ass?

I vote for mid-level separates, like the Evtimova (sp?). That way, you can get a Controller later and still use the power amp you have now with it. I know you never say never, but a good power amp will NEVER go out of style!

BTW - congrats! :)

These sets of data compliment each other more than contradict. HTM presents a single plot for the Three C that averages both horizontal and vertical responses across a 30 degree window. Ultimate AV presents separate graphs for the Three C's horizontal and vertical responses, also averaged across 30 degrees. If you were to combine two Ultimate AV graphs, the result would line up with the HTM data. Ultimate AV also presents individual 45 and 60 degree measurements for the Three that is not represented in the averaged response to demonstrate the off axis lobbing that occurs at those extreme angles.

Yeah, but look at HTM's measurements on the Fours, Threes and 3C here:

http://nhthifi.com/2006/press/reviews/new/HomeTheaterReview4-07.pdf

According to his review you linked, Michael Fremer was talking about using the X2's high and low pass crossover filters, or either the AVR or processor's crossovers on the Fours when bi-amping them, which goes directly against what I have already recently pointed out to prevent double filtering from going on. No damned wonder his review wasn't as glowing as most others have been! :rolleyes:

Now if even I know better than that, then surely someone of Fremer's experience damned well ought to too. Even though he is not the one who actually did the measuring, it makes me wonder if some of them really know WTF they are doing there. I personally trust HTM's measurements better.

And don't even get John started on Tom Nousine's sub measurements at S&V! :p

How many Pesos does a pair of Fours and the Controller/Power5 cost? XDs too for that matter. :D

Well, if they are $1800 and $6000 pesos, I'll bring back a dozen of each ;)

hi guys, i want to pour a layer of fiberglass and add some braces to my b5 subs, but after removing the 8 screws on the driver, i can not get the b5 driver to come off of the b5 cabinet. are the driver glued into the box? i even tried gripping the driver with a plier and pull on it with my legs pushing the b5 cabinet, but it still wont come out. any idea how to get the driver out?

i understand that this will void the warranty.

btw, i have done similar mod to the m5. i have added some braces and glued ceramic tiles in the inside of the m5. i have added some ruber lining and felt damping material to the m5 too. i've also removed the magnet shield cup from all of the m5 midbass drivers. the m5 sound much better now and virtually no hints of cabinet resonance.

thanks for your help

Mr, guy,

All of the Evolution 12" woofers are glued into the cabinet. There is glue on the back of the motor structure attaching it to the opposite cabinet wall or a brace, depending on which model. It is not possible to remove the woofer without destroying it.

Since each driver only receives 125W and has a long 2" diameter coil with an aluminum former, the drivers never fail. The only normal reason to remove the driver is if someone has damaged the cone or surround. In both of these cases, the driver needs to be replaced.

I can attest to the above. Those drivers aren't coming out. I don't know if Jack took a picture of the one I tried to remove and finally sent in for what should have been a simple glue job (the customer demanded a new driver). I've sold something like 400 of these woofers out there and zero motor failures and only one glue failure.

IOW, you'll have to live with the speakers as is!

I just picked up five C3s and I am very happy with the sound.I wanted to pick up a U1/U2 but the dealer did not have any to listen too, so I wait till one comes in. In the meantime I am curious about what you guys on this thread think about the power driving the sub. The take I get from any one who talks about the U1/U2 on here is that it is definitely a very musical sub but these days allot of small size subs like the U2 are coming out with min 600 watt amps (1500 watt peak) like the Paradigm Ultra cubes. I know ratings are one picture and listening is another but 250 watts seems relatively small for two 12' drivers. I am not a bass freak ( no disrespect for those who are :) ) but I like clean bass my room is approx 3500 sf .

Thanks Neal

I just picked up five C3s and I am very happy with the sound.I wanted to pick up a U1/U2 but the dealer did not have any to listen too, so I wait till one comes in. In the meantime I am curious about what you guys on this thread think about the power driving the sub. The take I get from any one who talks about the U1/U2 on here is that it is definitely a very musical sub but these days allot of small size subs like the U2 are coming out with min 600 watt amps (1500 watt peak) like the Paradigm Ultra cubes. I know ratings are one picture and listening is another but 250 watts seems relatively small for two 12' drivers. I am not a bass freak ( no disrespect for those who are :) ) but I like clean bass my room is approx 3500 sf .

Thanks Neal

I've never had any problem with the A1 amp, but then my room is about 1/8 the size of yours.

One of th enice things about the U1/U2 is that you can by just the X1 crossover and then use any amp you want to drive the thing. But I'm guessing if you went too high you could blow the woofers. Maybe somebody here can attest to the wisdom of using higher-powered amps?

What I'd do is just throw in a few extra U1s. I'd imagine three or four of the things would fill your room quite well.

Well, dealers have a right to price them how they want, but the line he gave you is kinda crap as NHT will build as many as he needs. It's not like they won't build more. It's one thing to tell someone that they don't discount (because they offer all these other services like free deliver/setup etc) but that's a typical, old, stale line that I thought went out in the 80s. Sorry to hear it. Though, you might have struck while the iron was hot too, you know! At the rate you're going, the Classic IIs will be out ;)

BTW, did you tell him that you quoted a different price by the earlier sales guy and brought your money? Or ask to speak with the owner to run it by him? Honesty usually works. You don't give up on a negotiation, you just get more clever than the guy with the silly little lines he heard from a car salesman :) The best technique is to go right around him to the boss and then the boss will likely be smarter than this kid and will want your money, especially if you have it on you. Many dealers are smart enough to also not quote a lower price than retail *unless* you're there to buy and they're sure of it. You just say "well, either I leave with these today or never because I'm not bringing my wallet twice".Forgive me if this has been addressed--I've been off the site for 5 weeks and trying to catch up. John is absolutely correct, especially as NHT is concerned. There are a few NHT dealers in my area, none perfect (one really obnoxious). I couldn't find anyone to let me take any home to listen, but went in to a store and the manager said "don't tell the owner, who has a rule about this, but if you get them in by 11 AM tomorrow, you can take them home tonight." I did just that, with CAZ's and C2's and a C10 sub. Did hours of listening in my own room, developed an impression, and wanted to listen to C3s. The first store didn't have them, but a second one did. I assumed I'd pay full price at either store because that was all I was quoted. A friend and I were both planning on setting up HTs and decided we'd buy together. Because Store 1 allowed us to take equipment home, we decided to buy from there. Store 2 took the 3's ouf of the box for me and they did NOT sound good, but were flat and distorted - clearly needed to be broken in. The store is 35-40 minutes from my home, but I told the salesman that if he broke them in, I'd be back in a week. They were still not great the next week, but he admitted they hadn't had much playing time, so I went back a THIRD time. that time, they sounded great, and (because the salesman had given me so much time) I said I'd buy the one pair of C3's (still expecting full price). He gave me a fair discount without my asking. I then went back to store 1 to buy the rest, asked for a discount, and got a very similar deal, also fair. I will also say this: NHT 3's take a LONG time to break in.

Peter

I currently have a 2.5/AC-1/1.5 7.1 setup, with a HSU VTF-3MKii sub. Mostly home theater use, located in a medium sized room in the basement.

I am considering an upgrade to Classic Fours/3C/Threes.

I love NHT and how they play with my Aragon amps, but I am wondering if I should even bother with the upgrade and stay with my current setup. Or, if an upgrade was worth it and since I have a decent sub, should I go with Threes all around instead?

Perhaps someone else who was faced with a similar dilemma could comment.

I can probably arrange for an in home demo of at least some of the setup, but I wanted to get any feedback beforehand.

Thanks!

I just picked up five C3s and I am very happy with the sound.I wanted to pick up a U1/U2 but the dealer did not have any to listen too, so I wait till one comes in. In the meantime I am curious about what you guys on this thread think about the power driving the sub. The take I get from any one who talks about the U1/U2 on here is that it is definitely a very musical sub but these days allot of small size subs like the U2 are coming out with min 600 watt amps (1500 watt peak) like the Paradigm Ultra cubes. I know ratings are one picture and listening is another but 250 watts seems relatively small for two 12' drivers. I am not a bass freak ( no disrespect for those who are :) ) but I like clean bass my room is approx 3500 sf .


Because of the 6ohm/94 dB efficiency of two W2s attached together, 250Ws is plenty. Most woofers are probably more like 88dB and therefore would need 4 times the power to move as much air. Saves you electricity too.

I currently have a 2.5/AC-1/1.5 7.1 setup, with a HSU VTF-3MKii sub. Mostly home theater use, located in a medium sized room in the basement.

I am considering an upgrade to Classic Fours/3C/Threes.

I love NHT and how they play with my Aragon amps, but I am wondering if I should even bother with the upgrade and stay with my current setup. Or, if an upgrade was worth it and since I have a decent sub, should I go with Threes all around instead?


The Fours are much smoother and more refined, so they will probably make your Aragons sound great. The Fours are almost, but not quite, powerful enough to take out the Hsu but it might actually sound better than the Hsu. Lots of my customers have done this upgrade and everybody is happy. You might do Threes all around though. Or, as a couple customers have done, go for two sets of Fours without a sub.

I will also say this: NHT 3's take a LONG time to break in.

It is also true that Threes sound sufficiently, even *radically* different from other speakers at first and it takes a little listening to appreciate what they do. Sometimes the added info in the upper midrange can be strange at first, but you get used to it fast. I won't say they are 100% without coloration or cone resonances, but they're a whole lot cleaner than most everything I've heard near that range. I find them to be fantastic right out of the box now that I'm used to their sound. It also depends so much on the material and setup that you play. They're not as forgiving or plush as some speakers, but not harsh and unnatural sounding like others.

PS - I just had manta ray tacos at the beach. I did a toast to Steve Irwin as I got my tasty revenge :)

PS - I just had manta ray tacos at the beach. I did a toast to Steve Irwin as I got my tasty revenge :)

...Nice snack. Hope you washed it down with a Foster's lager!

I have recently posted with regard to NHT's fabulous Classic series. I am going with the Classic Fours & Classic Three C, but I cannot use the Classic Three's for the two rear channels of a 5.1...(or 5.0, I guess, as I will wait to see if my rooms needs additional bass reinforcement). Will the in-ceiling iC3's work okay with the Classics up front? After reading a few reviews I also am seriously considering NHT's Controller/Power 5 combo. Any user feedback on those two?

Powered subwoofers are not that simple.

The reason that a lot of the very small subwoofers on the market use very or claim to use very high power amplifiers, is that they must. For a given amount of woofer cone displacement (area x stroke) a smaller cabinet will have a much larger pressure increase and decrease. To cause the larger pressure increase and decrease takes more amplifier power. Note that in both a large and small cabinet, a given driver has the same maximum low frequency output, given infinite amplifier power. In a sealed box, the low frequency output is simply a function of area x stroke. If a given amplifier can move the driver to its maximum stroke limits, then a larger amplifier is only going to bottom out the driver.

This is the case with the Evolution subwoofers. the 250W amplifier is enough power to move both drivers to their +/-11.5mm maximum stroke.

To put a driver in a small sealed box and make it have ANY low frequency output, it must have a very low efficiency, unless you use a lot of eq.

Some of the subwoofers out there that claim to be powered by 1-2kW amplifiers have woofers that are only 75dB@1W at 25Hz. However, the only thing that SHOULD matter to the consumer is "Does the subwoofer play loud enough at the frequencies I want to hear?" How much amplifier power the subwoofer has is mostly irrelevant.

...Nice snack. Hope you washed it down with a Foster's lager!

I have recently posted with regard to NHT's fabulous Classic series. I am going with the Classic Fours & Classic Three C, but I cannot use the Classic Three's for the two rear channels of a 5.1...(or 5.0, I guess, as I will wait to see if my rooms needs additional bass reinforcement). Will the in-ceiling iC3's work okay with the Classics up front? After reading a few reviews I also am seriously considering NHT's Controller/Power 5 combo. Any user feedback on those two?

iW4s are out?

iW4s are out?

I don't know! Can these wall-mounts be placed in the ceiling? (This is how the room was wired prior to drywall due to some uniqure room features).

Thanks everyone for your replies to my question about the U1/U2. I am hoping to listen to the U2 soon and on a side note I went by a Paradigm dealer and I was asking similar questions about the sizemic subs they sound pretty clean as well but he believes that their 1500 watt rating is a little optimistic :( more like in the 600 range.

Neal

I currently have a 2.5/AC-1/1.5 7.1 setup, with a HSU VTF-3MKii sub. Mostly home theater use, located in a medium sized room in the basement.

I am considering an upgrade to Classic Fours/3C/Threes.

I love NHT and how they play with my Aragon amps, but I am wondering if I should even bother with the upgrade and stay with my current setup. Or, if an upgrade was worth it and since I have a decent sub, should I go with Threes all around instead?

Perhaps someone else who was faced with a similar dilemma could comment.

I can probably arrange for an in home demo of at least some of the setup, but I wanted to get any feedback beforehand.

Thanks!

You should try the 3's and see how you like them. If you don't like them just sell them and you want be out to much. If you do like them then you will be able to how they work with your sub and go from their.
Allen
PS Hopefully Mark will chime in here for you.

Nah Allen, you've already gave him great advise. :)

About the only thing I would add is for him to go back to the previous page just before this one and read Jack's comments from a review I quoted about adding (or not adding) a sub to Fours.

Personally, I like John's idea of having Fours as mains and surrounds for movies. I honestly don't think that in such a set up that anyone would complain about a lack of bass, just so long as they had enough amp power that is (like a Power5). :eek:

Thanks everyone for your replies to my question about the U1/U2. I am hoping to listen to the U2 soon and on a side note I went by a Paradigm dealer and I was asking similar questions about the sizemic subs they sound pretty clean as well but he believes that their 1500 watt rating is a little optimistic :( more like in the 600 range.

Neal

Trust me on this Neal, if you were to get dual U1s (W1s) and A1 amps (you would only need 1 X1 crossover), you would be smilin'. Movies or music, doesn't matter. And if you were to get the 20 Hz mod to the X1, so much the better.

Even in a big, huge room, your ears would beg for mercy from the loudness long before the subs do. ;)

There are a few NHT dealers in my area, none perfect (one really obnoxious). ... The first store didn't have them, but a second one did.

My local NHT dealer, who is literally right across the street from my office, no longer carries Xds on display. He did have a pair for a while, but soon sent them back claiming he couldn't sell them just because of their looks.

He just got Fours in like the week between Christmas and New Years, and he has never had the Controller and/or Power5/2, and claims that he won't carry them on display, that if anyone wants them or Xds, they have to be special ordered (with a deposit of course). At least the last time I was in there a month or so ago anyway, unless he's since changed.

In fact, the pair of Fours I now have were bought off of ebay by the original owner (by necessity of no other choice at that time since the guy here wouldn't even have them till like 6 months later), and the Fours came straight from NHT direct (drop-shipped I guess). I know, cause I bought like the very last pair of brand new, factory sealed unopened box VT3s that NHT had off of ebay straight from Jack a little over a year ago, and the very same truck driver delivered both pairs.

I just picked up five C3s and I am very happy with the sound.I wanted to pick up a U1/U2 but the dealer did not have any to listen too, so I wait till one comes in. In the meantime I am curious about what you guys on this thread think about the power driving the sub. The take I get from any one who talks about the U1/U2 on here is that it is definitely a very musical sub but these days allot of small size subs like the U2 are coming out with min 600 watt amps (1500 watt peak) like the Paradigm Ultra cubes. I know ratings are one picture and listening is another but 250 watts seems relatively small for two 12' drivers. I am not a bass freak ( no disrespect for those who are :) ) but I like clean bass my room is approx 3500 sf .

Thanks NealThis question was also asked about 3 weeks ago (remember, I read the past month's worth of postings today!), and I asked it about 2-3 months ago. Surely someone has listened to C3s with U2s (or U1s). I'm still debating between the U2s or 2 Tannoy TS-10s, which I know are very musical but probably won't go as deep. I didn't like the C10 when I had it home (listened to it with C2s).

Peter

I've got a pair of Threes with a U1, in a room about 12 x 15, crossed over at 80 Hz, and while I haven't directly A/Bed that set up against the Fours yet, despite them being in different rooms and better electronics with the Fours (NHT Controller/Power5 vs an Outlaw Audio RR2150 stereo receiver), I would definitely recommend the Three/U1 set up for music over the Fours.

Of course, as always, YMMV! :cool:

Thanks very much for everyone's input on this.

I got a deal I couldn't pass up on a pair of new Classic Fours and a Three C, and went ahead and pulled the trigger this evening. I am getting an Anthem AVM50 pre/pro in a few weeks (darn backorder) and will try to integrate the HSU sub as best as possible with the Anthem's filtering capabilities. If I can't get the sub and Fours to play well together, I will consider the X2 option. Or, if the pair of Fours do meet my LFE needs, I may just dump the HSU altogether and use the proceeds to get another pair of Fours for 2 of my rear channels.

:)

Nah Allen, you've already gave him great advise. :)

About the only thing I would add is for him to go back to the previous page just before this one and read Jack's comments from a review I quoted about adding (or not adding) a sub to Fours.

Personally, I like John's idea of having Fours as mains and surrounds for movies. I honestly don't think that in such a set up that anyone would complain about a lack of bass, just so long as they had enough amp power that is (like a Power5). :eek:

Congrats on the Fours Mr. Foo! :D :) :cool: ;)

But if I may, can I suggest a NHT Controller instead of the Anthem while you still can since it's B/O?

Thanks.

The NHT controller, while obviously the optimal choice for working with NHT speakers, can't give me the advanced video processing that I want and I wanted an all in one A/V pre-pro. If I had held on to my DVDO Vp50, I would have strongly considered the NHT controller as an HDMI capable replacement for my Aragon Stage One. I don't think it can do 7.1 LPCM input via HDMI yet either (though I believe that this is coming as an upgrade?).

Congrats on the Fours Mr. Foo! :D :) :cool: ;)

But if I may, can I suggest a NHT Controller instead of the Anthem while you still can since it's B/O?

These sets of data compliment each other more than contradict. HTM presents a single plot for the Three C that averages both horizontal and vertical responses across a 30 degree window. Ultimate AV presents separate graphs for the Three C's horizontal and vertical responses, also averaged across 30 degrees. If you were to combine two Ultimate AV graphs, the result would line up with the HTM data. Ultimate AV also presents individual 45 and 60 degree measurements for the Three that is not represented in the averaged response to demonstrate the off axis lobbing that occurs at those extreme angles.

doesn't the HTM data for the classic 3 seems quite different from the sterophile data or that taken by the canadian lab for one of the other reviews? the HTM makes it seem really subdued in the top end the canadian lab the most flat across the range.

This is my first post in an AV forum so please be gentle! 3 questions ahead:

I'm out in Hong Kong and have decided to upgrade from a Phillips LX 8000 SA HTIB system. The unit has SACD capability as well as DCDI by Faroudja. (1) Can I continue to use this as my CD/DVD player? What connections do I need to look for on the back of the unit to tell whether this is possible? Real NOOB huh! :o

(2) I have been inspired by this thread and the reviews I have read to possibly buy a replacement speaker and reciever set. I will buy either a pair of NHT Classic 4's, 1 3C3 and a pair of C3's to be powered by a Yamaha rx v2700 or a pair of Mirage OMD 15, 1 OMD C2 and a pair of OMD 5 & Mirage S12. I heard the latter system in a great listening room presented by a very experienced and friendly technician. He works for the main importer and does not work on commission so no sales pitch just a demo. The sound experience was wonderful (maybe not surprising given my current equipment).

I heard the NHT setup today at another dealer but it was really dissapointing. The salesman said it wasn't setup properly because I asked him to disconnect the subwoofer (not necessary according to this thread?) and also substitute the M5 rears originally wired up as surrounds with the C3s. I will go back on Saturday when he will have it all set up properly for me. He does not have the Yamaha 2700 but a more expensive brand called NAIM. My question is will the Yamaha I can afford work well with the NHT setup? My problem is that I will not be able to tell after my re-audition how much of an influence the reciever used (Naim) has instead of the Yamaha.

(3) The Mirage system sounded really "airy" with a really vivid soundstage with music and in movies incredible surround sound effects and thumping bass explosions etc. Just in case the guy on Saturday doesn't manage to setup the NHT system well, does anyone have an idea how the NHT compares with the Mirage system? The NHT salesman doesn't inspire confidence in all honesty compared to the Mirage tech guy.

Thanks for your patience, I've really enjoyed reading all the posts in this thread and I think it's wonderful that NHT people chime in so frequently; great learning for me.
Cheers Roy

(1) Can I continue to use this as my CD/DVD player? What connections do I need to look for on the back of the unit to tell whether this is possible? Real NOOB huh! :o

Just make sure it has a digital output. If you want to play SACDs or DVD-As at full resolution, you'll need analog outs which it probably won't have.

(2) I have been inspired by this thread and the reviews I have read to possibly buy a replacement speaker and reciever set. I will buy either a pair of NHT Classic 4's, 1 3C3 and a pair of C3's to be powered by a Yamaha rx v2700 or a pair of Mirage OMD 15, 1 OMD C2 and a pair of OMD 5 & Mirage S12. I heard the latter system in a great listening room presented by a very experienced and friendly technician. He works for the main importer and does not work on commission so no sales pitch just a demo. The sound experience was wonderful (maybe not surprising given my current equipment).

Mirages have a nice sound and are going to vary more by room and setup. When setup well, they sound great. They rely on the walls more, so spacing is critical. They embellish a bit with more added ambience, but it can be very pleasant. The thing is to listen to all kinds of music to see if the effect works for you generally or not

I heard the NHT setup today at another dealer but it was really dissapointing. The salesman said it wasn't setup properly because I asked him to disconnect the subwoofer (not necessary according to this thread?) and also substitute the M5 rears originally wired up as surrounds with the C3s.

Keep in mind, the NHTs do have almost the opposite sound. Leaner, cleaner, technically more correct, IMO, but less colored, less embellished. Sometimes that does sound disappointing at first. Remember though to listen to the music, not the speakers!!! Then it gets more interesting. They're very clean and detailed, but with not obvious coloration except for a bit of bass heft, they can sound kinda flat on some discs, especially some surround DVDs. But they can also sound like they cost 5 times what they do at times.

My question is will the Yamaha I can afford work well with the NHT setup? My problem is that I will not be able to tell after my re-audition how much of an influence the reciever used (Naim) has instead of the Yamaha.

It should do fine within reasonable volumes.

(3) The Mirage system sounded really "airy" with a really vivid soundstage with music and in movies incredible surround sound effects and thumping bass explosions etc. Just in case the guy on Saturday doesn't manage to setup the NHT system well, does anyone have an idea how the NHT compares with the Mirage system? The NHT salesman doesn't inspire confidence in all honesty compared to the Mirage tech guy.

Mirage is always going to sound airy, even when they're not *supposed* to. The NHTs can sound quite airy if it's in the recording, but won't if it's not. Go by what your ears tell you, unless they'll let you take a set home for further study. I do say that NHTs are speakers that you can grow into and appreciate more and more over time, but they're a bit of culture shock at first.

Hi Roy,

I can't so much give advice, as John can above, because I've got very little experience with other equipment, but....

I've got the Yamaha 2700 paired with NHT C3/C3C, EvoU1 sub. I'm very happy with the sound and the pairing. I can add that it's very non-fatiguing. I can have them on for hours listening to music, movies, TV.... I added a pair of NHT AZ in the bar area of my bar/theater, but I've found that I just rarely activate them, preferring to just let the sound from the C3/U1 system filter over to the bar--even for multi-channel music. No knock on the AZs--I just didn't realize how good the C3s would sound from so far off-axis/away from the primary listening position.

BTW, I've got the 3s on stands as my initial plan to wall-mount fell flat. In retrospect, I probably should have checked out the L5 further or waited for the C4s--but the 4s had just come out and I was scared about availability and had my heart set on a sub anyway... No regrets though, just trying to resist the urge to add another U1 right now. ;)

Mark





This is my first post in an AV forum so please be gentle! 3 questions ahead:

I'm out in Hong Kong and have decided to upgrade from a Phillips LX 8000 SA HTIB system. The unit has SACD capability as well as DCDI by Faroudja. (1) Can I continue to use this as my CD/DVD player? What connections do I need to look for on the back of the unit to tell whether this is possible? Real NOOB huh! :o

(2) I have been inspired by this thread and the reviews I have read to possibly buy a replacement speaker and reciever set. I will buy either a pair of NHT Classic 4's, 1 3C3 and a pair of C3's to be powered by a Yamaha rx v2700 or a pair of Mirage OMD 15, 1 OMD C2 and a pair of OMD 5 & Mirage S12. I heard the latter system in a great listening room presented by a very experienced and friendly technician. He works for the main importer and does not work on commission so no sales pitch just a demo. The sound experience was wonderful (maybe not surprising given my current equipment).

I heard the NHT setup today at another dealer but it was really dissapointing. The salesman said it wasn't setup properly because I asked him to disconnect the subwoofer (not necessary according to this thread?) and also substitute the M5 rears originally wired up as surrounds with the C3s. I will go back on Saturday when he will have it all set up properly for me. He does not have the Yamaha 2700 but a more expensive brand called NAIM. My question is will the Yamaha I can afford work well with the NHT setup? My problem is that I will not be able to tell after my re-audition how much of an influence the reciever used (Naim) has instead of the Yamaha.

(3) The Mirage system sounded really "airy" with a really vivid soundstage with music and in movies incredible surround sound effects and thumping bass explosions etc. Just in case the guy on Saturday doesn't manage to setup the NHT system well, does anyone have an idea how the NHT compares with the Mirage system? The NHT salesman doesn't inspire confidence in all honesty compared to the Mirage tech guy.

Thanks for your patience, I've really enjoyed reading all the posts in this thread and I think it's wonderful that NHT people chime in so frequently; great learning for me.
Cheers Roy

just trying to resist the urge to add another U1 right now. It's useless to resist. :)

I've got a pair of Threes with a U1, in a room about 12 x 15, crossed over at 80 Hz, and while I haven't directly A/Bed that set up against the Fours yet, despite them being in different rooms and better electronics with the Fours (NHT Controller/Power5 vs an Outlaw Audio RR2150 stereo receiver), I would definitely recommend the Three/U1 set up for music over the Fours.

Of course, as always, YMMV! :cool:

I've got Threes/U1 powered by an NAD T753. Haven't heard the Fours, but upgraded from SB3s with an SW12, and honestly I think I enjoy the upgrade in the subwoofer more than the upgrade in speakers. Acoustic suspension makes all the difference!

Roy,
Make sure the NHT C3s have been broken in (like 40 hours of playing). They sounded pretty weak to me, when new, but are awesome when broken in. One thing to try and notice when listening to music is the placement of the instruments. Close your eyes and try to picture where the music is coming from. I think you'll find the NHTs are very accurate on this, and the Mirage's (even when perfectly set up) less so.
Peter

Originally Posted by Alimentall
iW4s are out?

I don't know! Can these wall-mounts be placed in the ceiling? (This is how the room was wired prior to drywall due to some uniqure room features).


I would think the mids/tweeters in the iW4's may be a better match with C3/C4/C3c - if you could reroute the wire to the back/side wall it would be preferable to a ceiling mount.

With the ceiling mount, the iC4 may be the best route....

just my 2 peso's... Mike

Thanks to Mark Russ for finding a set of P5's for me... my Bedroom HT is coming together nicely!

Originally Posted by Alimentall
iW4s are out?

I would think the mids/tweeters in the iW4's may be a better match with C3/C4/C3c - if you could reroute the wire to the back/side wall it would be preferable to a ceiling mount.

With the ceiling mount, the iC4 may be the best route....

just my 2 peso's... Mike

Thank you sir. I may have to settle for the iC3's as I cannot install iW4's at the back wall.

Thank you for the advice on the way NHT's are supposed to sound, seems I picked two opposite ends of the listening spectrum in comparing Mirage and NHT, just my luck! The tips on what to listen out for will be very helpful for my session tomorrow. The setup seemed so out of balance in my last session, little bass and very little coming from the rear surrounds in movie sequences (don't know the playing hours on the units and I doubt the dealer does either). I think because the setup wasn't right I was forced to start to try to listen to the speakers rather than the music or movie.

On the positive side, my missus sat through the whole experience and at the end said she liked the look of the Classic 4's, she liked the Mirage OMD 15's too so I'm very fortunate as she hated the KEF EQ's and a few other speakers; didn't even want to listen because she felt there was no point in listening to something she wouldn't want in the house :D

Anyway I'm off tomorrow for another listen, this time they say they'll use an Onkyo reciever in the same price range as the Yamaha 2700 so hopefully I'll get a better idea.

One last question, if I can dredge up a few more bucks is it worth buying an amp say second hand to go with the Yamaha or would that be a waste of the Yamaha's potential. Can't stretch to anything even remotely like the Controller/Power5 but was wondering how I would go about getting a little more bass out of the C4's going the second hand route. If there are any decent second hand amps you can recommend and rough prices please chime in.

Thanks to you all, what a great hobby to get into!
Cheers Roy

I don't know! Can these wall-mounts be placed in the ceiling? (This is how the room was wired prior to drywall due to some uniqure room features).

You can do it in ceiling. Better match, better sounding than the iC4 if it is okay for you.

Thanks.

The NHT controller, while obviously the optimal choice for working with NHT speakers, can't give me the advanced video processing that I want and I wanted an all in one A/V pre-pro. If I had held on to my DVDO Vp50, I would have strongly considered the NHT controller as an HDMI capable replacement for my Aragon Stage One. I don't think it can do 7.1 LPCM input via HDMI yet either (though I believe that this is coming as an upgrade?).

Me personally, I'd put pure audio performance over video processing any day of the week, and twice on Sunday! :cool:

Acoustic suspension makes all the difference!

AMEN brother! You're preachin' to the choir here! :D

Thanks to Mark Russ for finding a set of P5's for me... my Bedroom HT is coming together nicely!

Yeah, and you got a better deal on 'em than I did on a pair I got myself a month or two ago! :p :o :( :mad: :rolleyes: :eek:

... but was wondering how I would go about getting a little more bass out of the C4's going the second hand route. If there are any decent second hand amps you can recommend and rough prices please chime in.

You can get used A1s for about $200, give or take a little, all day long.

Why not get 2 of them and an X2?

Of course, used X2s are rare, I've only ever seen two for sale, one here, and one of ebay, so you might have to get that new. On the bright side though, they are a little cheaper than new A1s. :)

Anyway I'm off tomorrow for another listen, this time they say they'll use an Onkyo reciever in the same price range as the Yamaha 2700 so hopefully I'll get a better idea.

Another thing, and this is just my own subjective, personal opinion, but I'm sure more would prolly agree with me here than not on this, but I think Onk and Yammy definitely sound a little brighter to my ears than say HK, NAD, Cambridge Audio, Marantz, even Denon.

And the Mirages are generally a warmer sounding speaker that will mate better to brighter Yammys and Onks, whereas NHTs seem to go better with NAD, HK, etc.

Hey John, just curious, but would you have traded a full 5.2 VT3 set (VT3s VC3, VR3s) even for a full 7.1 Classic set with Fours, 3C, two pairs of Threes and a Twelve sub, especially if you still had a 7.2 VT3 set (with 2 pairs of VR3s)?

i just want to show you guys what i have done to my t5.

first up the m5:

m5 (http://www.yourbigfun.net/pic/nht.jpg)

with the m5, i glued ceramic bars across front, rear and side walls and ceramic tiles all around. the shielding cup of the m5 woofer was also removed.

then the b5:

b5 (http://www.yourbigfun.net/pic/nht2.jpg)
b5b (http://www.yourbigfun.net/pic/nht3.jpg)

the b5 was a bit harder because i was unable to remove the woofer. i had to work through the small binding post holes. with the b5, i glued 1" diameter piece of hardwood across toward the top of the cabinet walls. the top of the cabinet is probably the weaskest point of the cabinet. then i poured fiberglass resin and add ceramic tiles all around. i had to break the tiles into small pieces so they would go through the small little binding post cut out.


thanks for earlier responses.

Anybody else hear Hidley hyperventilating?

:)

Hey John, just curious, but would you have traded a full 5.2 VT3 set (VT3s VC3, VR3s) even for a full 7.1 Classic set with Fours, 3C, two pairs of Threes and a Twelve sub, especially if you still had a 7.2 VT3 set (with 2 pairs of VR3s)?

If I have *two* sets of VTs? Sure. Diversity! Each has its strengths.

Me personally, I'd put pure audio performance over video processing any day of the week, and twice on Sunday! :cool:

Yes and then get the JVC RS1 that has the same Gennum processing system. Then run all the HDMI natively.

i just want to show you guys what i have done to my t5...

thanks for earlier responses.

Hi rl guy,
Interesting efforts.

I would be concerned about the change in the internal volume of each cabinet as this changes the resonant point of the driver(s), effective resistance and potentially crossover point(s). The balance designers strike when assembling the "system" is very sensitive to anything that influence mechanics and electrics. You may have lost low end response.

In my opinion cabinet rigidity cannot be improved upon enough. Most manufactures would agree the best material for speaker cabinets is concrete. This presents its own set of problems (e.g. weight, machinability).

NHT designs (up to now) have been pretty pedestrian with regards to HDMDF and square cabinet corners. Diffraction effects from the edges of speaker cabinets have long been the focus of manufactures such as Avalon Acoustics and B & W. Look at the care involved in constructing a Thiel cabinet starting with the 3" thick front baffle.

I might have attempted HD closed cell polypropylene foam first or tacky sound absorbing panels (i.e. car doors) first.

Sincerely,
Martin

Me personally, I'd put pure audio performance over video processing any day of the week, and twice on Sunday! :cool:

For me, I want both the video and audio performance of my HT to be notable, and I don't think Anthem's approach is the best way to achieve that end. I followed the flagship D2 from concept to rollout and wasn't completely surprised to see their ambitious undertaking falling short of the mark.

The net effect of shoehorning a bigger video processing section in to the same basic form factor as the D1, not too surprisingly, was to create some serious heat issues. Several people posted here that they needed to add an external fan in order to get their D2s to work satisfactorily. The idea of getting rid of one more box (for those that want an external VP) is appealing, but really runs counter to the whole notion of separate components. It still remains true: "there ain't no free lunch".

Not only does the D2/AVM-50 fall well short of providing the level of tweakability that most external VPs provide, it also doesn't even offer display resolutions that matched two of the more important PDP mfg (Panny and Pio). [Note: I stopped following the D2/AVM-50 progress months ago, so this issue may have been addressed.] While Anthem certainly uses fine parts carefully assembled, I am not sure their R&D is all that great. For example: I learned (straight from Nick @ Anthem) that while they did have problems reported with Panny commercial panels (a very common display choice for their target market), it turns out they never tested it with a Panny; but rather, they used "a 32 inch LCD that was laying around" for their 1366x768 testing.

The need for external VPs is lessening as some mfg are producing more advanced VPs in their displays and more displays are now being offered that accept native rate inputs (like 1080p/24). While there still remains a market for external VPs, more people are finding the internal VP sufficient for their needs. Having considered the issue at length, I am personally of the mind that if you require more VP than what your display/projector offers, then you are better off getting an external VP to handle that need (and swap it out when it doesn't), rather than trying to saddle a pre/pro with that task.

If I have *two* sets of VTs? Sure. Diversity! Each has its strengths.

By that, I take it to mean that you wouldn't have if you didn't already still have another VT3 set? ;)

When I mentioned before that I got a great deal on a used Classic surround set, I meant that in terms of the $$$ amount it actually cost me, but I did pay a steep price in terms of giving up a complete 5.2 VT3 set (that I got a great deal on in the first place) to get the 7.1 Classic set. But to get something good, you have to give up something good I guess.

I was initially hesitant to do it, and in a way, I have second guessed myself for it simply because there is sort of an air of rarity to the VT3s. They only had a production run of, what, about 1 year wasn't it? But the more I thought about it, the better the deal looked, especially considering no more than what used VT3s have been selling for lately :o (which is still more than I paid for that set I traded though :D )

However, as you noted, I do still have a full 7.2 VT3 set (the better and newer set at that), and, like you also pointed out, I did get something newer and more diversified with different strengths and advantages.

One other thing, is that in the deal I sent my NAD T753 AVR along with the VT3 set in exchange for an HK AVR635 because the T753 had the pre-ins and outs that are required for the VT3's bass control unit that the HK 635 doesn't have. The HK 635 does have pre-outs, but no pre-ins.

I do think that the HK 635 is an upgrade over the NAD T753 too. The amp section is just as good, or at least very comparable. Another thing is that it does have 7 amp channels (vs 6 for the NAD), and it really does have a much better pre-pro section than the T753 does as far as chips, DACS, features, etc. Plus it has a 5 year warranty of which almost 4 are still left. :)

So alltogether, I sent out:
VT3 mains
VC3 center
VR3 surrounds (1 pair)
NAD T753 AVR

and got back:
Four mains
3C center
Three surrounds (2 pairs)
Twelve sub
HK 635 AVR

I'm not even using the Twelve sub right now, but just as soon as the Controller gets the forthcoming update Jack mentioned a few pages back for adding a sub to Fours through the Controller, I will. :D

You can get used A1s for about $200, give or take a little, all day long.

Why not get 2 of them and an X2?

Of course, used X2s are rare, I've only ever seen two for sale, one here, and one of ebay, so you might have to get that new. On the bright side though, they are a little cheaper than new A1s. :)

Another thing I wanted to add here, is that you could get just one A1 amp to start with along with an X2 crossover, and then add a second A1 later.

I assume a single A1 could handle the dual 6 Ohm loads of a pair of Four sub drivers, but if I'm wrong I'm hope Jack will correct me on that. :p

For me, I want both the video and audio performance of my HT to be notable, and I don't think Anthem's approach is the best way to achieve that end. I followed the flagship D2 from concept to rollout and wasn't completely surprised to see their ambitious undertaking falling short of the mark.

The net effect of shoehorning a bigger video processing section in to the same basic form factor as the D1, not too surprisingly, was to create some serious heat issues. Several people posted here that they needed to add an external fan in order to get their D2s to work satisfactorily. The idea of getting rid of one more box (for those that want an external VP) is appealing, but really runs counter to the whole notion of separate components. It still remains true: "there ain't no free lunch".

Not only does the D2/AVM-50 fall well short of providing the level of tweakability that most external VPs provide, it also doesn't even offer display resolutions that matched two of the more important PDP mfg (Panny and Pio). [Note: I stopped following the D2/AVM-50 progress months ago, so this issue may have been addressed.] While Anthem certainly uses fine parts carefully assembled, I am not sure their R&D is all that great. For example: I learned (straight from Nick @ Anthem) that while they did have problems reported with Panny commercial panels (a very common display choice for their target market), it turns out they never tested it with a Panny; but rather, they used "a 32 inch LCD that was laying around" for their 1366x768 testing.

The need for external VPs is lessening as some mfg are producing more advanced VPs in their displays and more displays are now being offered that accept native rate inputs (like 1080p/24). While there still remains a market for external VPs, more people are finding the internal VP sufficient for their needs. Having considered the issue at length, I am personally of the mind that if you require more VP than what your display/projector offers, then you are better off getting an external VP to handle that need (and swap it out when it doesn't), rather than trying to saddle a pre/pro with that task.


ZARASCAN,

You are one of the few that doesn't like the D2, and thinks it falls short. You should take your comments over to D2 discussion.

For those that have purchased the Classic 4, did any of your compare them to the following.

I really can't decide if spending the extra cash on these is worth it over the Classic 4 and C3.

Option 1:

Monitor Audio GS60's front left/right
Monitor Audio GS-LCR center

Option 2:

Focal Profile 918 front left/right
Focal Profile CC908 center

Option 3:

Dynaudio Focus 220 front left/right
Dynaudio Focus 200C center

Look who else is a client :cool: ...just ran across this article today:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/installations/2162/oliver-stones-radical-cinema.html

I found this article VERY interesting, since Oliver Stone went with exactly the same speakers I chose for my HT (M6x3 across the front, L5x4 for sides/rear and the U2 double subs). I was pleased to read that he was really happy with the whole setup, and was particularly pleased with the sound. Obviously, money was no object for him (unlike for me) and I respect his use of sound in movies.

It also made me feel comfortable with my decision to go with the Evolution speakers, instead of waiting for the newer line, which was just trickling out at the time (around a year ago).

KK

Anthem, we all listen for slightly qualities and annoyances when choosing speakers and in a blind comparison would rank the models somewhat differently. In the end it is your ears and your money, most all of us here are happy with our NHTs.

ZARASCAN,

You are one of the few that doesn't like the D2, and thinks it falls short. You should take your comments over to D2 discussion.

Well, he's over emphasizing the point that much of what these units do isn't needed for most people and other solutions are better than an all in one setup. I personally think the processing is better done in the PJ or TV these days because the TV you buy in two years will probably have better processing than the Anthem anyway. Hence the JVC/Controller setup which gives you the best of both worlds.

I do have a hard time believing that the Anthem sounds as bad as he says though (not that he harped on that here).

I do have a hard time believing that the Anthem sounds as bad as he says though (not that he harped on that here).

Where the heck did I say anything about sound quality and Anthem?!?!

The larger point here is that Mr. Foo's requirement of VP abilities like that of an external VP -- but housed in a pre/pro (see #3116) -- made him pass on the Controller for his NHT speakered HT (in favor of an AVM-50); which for all the reasons stated above, I continue to believe was short-sighted thinking.

I was a potential D2/AVM-50 buyer and passed on them for the Controller. After reflecting on why I would need more processing abilities than what my Pioneer Elite 1540 provides, I was hard pressed to find a single valid reason for adding another link in the video chain. My display accepts a 1080p/24 input, which if fed an unmolested HD 1080p/24 source, does not leave me wanting more VP. The truth is, as the SOA continues to advance for mfg provided internal VP, fewer people will find any honest need for additonal processing.

For NHT speaker owners weighting a decision on which pre/pro to buy next, I think it is important to understand that the value of a having pre/pro with extensive VP is greatly overstated (at least IMO). While the concept may have appeal to some, it comes with design tradeoffs that are not especially good; and of questionable value in the context of displays/projectors that already provide solid internal processing. NHT speaker owners have a unique opportunity for onboard NHT specific DEQ that should not be ignored because of the abscence of that which is better addressed by an external VP, should there be a need for more VP than what your display/projector provides.

Where the heck did I say anything about sound quality and Anthem?!?!

Oh, wait, apologies, that was Zissou in another thread. He seems to hate the Anthem for some reason.

Short-sighted thinking?

I think not. I researched this quite a bit actually and not by just listening to others opinions.

Question for you, Mr. Zaracsan - have you even personally tried an external VP in your system to validate your claims about your TV's VP capabilities? Maybe most everything that you input to your display is already1080p, so it's not an issue. This isn't the case with me, as I watch a lot of TV programming on it, both SD an HD.

My TV is no slouch (ISF calibrated 70" Sony SXRD XBR2), and can definitely say I noticed a significant drop in PQ after I pulled out the DVDO Vp-50, mostly so with SD sources. Of course, future displays will have improved VP capabilities, but as for me I am going to be sticking with this display for a few years.

There are quite a few people a lot more knowledgeable than me who argue that the VP capability in the AVM-50/D2 is AT LEAST on par with even the Vp-50 for example. Not believing anything but my own eyes, I took my VP-50 up to an Anthem dealer myself and did an A/B test with one his XBR2's and AVM-50's and can attest to this myself.

The overheating issues with the D2 seem very isolated (hasn't it been just one guy in the owners thread who had issues?) and are far outweighed by the apparently many happy owners. Furthermore, there doesn't seem to be any such issues with the AVM-50, which is what I will be going with.

Lastly, Anthem seems to be very good about upgrades, both in firmware and through hardware upgrade programs. The pre/pro even accepts 7.1 LPCM today for hidef audio from BD and HD-DVD, which I believe the NHT cannot currently claim (limited to 2-chan with the promise of 7.1 in the future?). This capability was the whole point behind me dumping my previous pre/pro (a very well respected Aragon Stage One) in the first place, given that I had HD-DVD, BD, and DVD-Audio sources in my system and only had a single set of 7.1 analog inputs.

As I mentioned, the NHT Controller would obviously be better suited for a NHT speaker setup, but I should be able to mitigate any filtering deficiencies, if any, by dropping my HSU sub and going full range C4 all around and/or strategically incorporating some X2's. Given this, I really don't think the NHT Controller and the Anthem AVM50 are really even in the same class of processor at all, and there a lot others who would likely agree.

Where the heck did I say anything about sound quality and Anthem?!?!

The larger point here is that Mr. Foo's requirement of VP abilities like that of an external VP -- but housed in a pre/pro (see #3116) -- made him pass on the Controller for his NHT speakered HT (in favor of an AVM-50); which for all the reasons stated above, I continue to believe was short-sighted thinking.

I was a potential D2/AVM-50 buyer and passed on them for the Controller. After reflecting on why I would need more processing abilities than what my Pioneer Elite 1540 provides, I was hard pressed to find a single valid reason for adding another link in the video chain. My display accepts a 1080p/24 input, which if fed an unmolested HD 1080p/24 source, does not leave me wanting more VP. The truth is, as the SOA continues to advance for mfg provided internal VP, fewer people will find any honest need for additonal processing.

For NHT speaker owners weighting a decision on which pre/pro to buy next, I think it is important to understand that the value of a having pre/pro with extensive VP is greatly overstated (at least IMO). While the concept may have appeal to some, it comes with design tradeoffs that are not especially good; and of questionable value in the context of displays/projectors that already provide solid internal processing. NHT speaker owners have a unique opportunity for onboard NHT specific DEQ that should not be ignored because of the abscence of that which is better addressed by an external VP, should there be a need for more VP than what your display/projector provides.

Mr. Foo, I think your disagreement with Zaracsan stems personal priorities, there is no right answer.

I'm about ready to pull the trigger on my home theater speakers. I'm set on getting 3 M5s for the front. Some of you may remember my living room photo that I posted in this thread a few months ago. If not or you don't remember, here is the entertainment center.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v354/keysman/remodel/th_2006_entertainment_dim.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v354/keysman/remodel/2006_entertainment_dim.jpg)

A large rug is on the way to help minimize some early reflections.

Now I need to decide on what I want to do for my surround speakers. Here is a look at the other half of the room. I cut out some templates from black craft paper and used some masking tape to secure them to my walls and ceiling. I also littered up this photo with a bunch of arrows pointing out the black paper templates.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v354/keysman/remodel/surround1.jpg

I original idea was to go with a pair of iC4s on the ceiling for the surround sound. I'm now trying to decide if I want to stick with that plan or go with some L5s for the surround. I know the L5s will sound better and will be a better match for the M5s but they will be more difficult to install and will not look as nice (to the wife).

I could use some advice here. You can see from the photo that the L5s will barely fit above the window on the left. The position is also a little bit back from the listening position. I could position the L5s on the side wall parallel to the ceiling instead of the way they are shown here.

I don't really feel like I need more than 5.1 but since I was at it I cut out a couple templates to show where L5s could go on the back wall. In this next photo you can see how the L5s would be positioned relative to the couch. They would be a little off center.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v354/keysman/remodel/surround2.jpg

In this next photo you can see how the L5s mounted on the side walls would be positioned relative to the couch. They would be a little be behind the seating position.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v354/keysman/remodel/surround3.jpg

The ceilings are 9 foot tall for your reference.

Here is one more shot looking from the front right corner of the room near the subwoofer in the first photo.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v354/keysman/remodel/surround4.jpg

The templates for the iC4s were just placed by eye. I didn't measure for those. I'm probably going to place my order for this stuff next week.

broodwich, I like your L5 placements for the sides and on the back they will work but I think I would also look at putting them closer together on the back wall if they will fit in your cut outs.
Allen

Short-sighted thinking?
I really don't think the NHT Controller and the Anthem AVM50 are really even in the same class of processor at all, and there a lot others who would likely agree.

I have been going back and forth on getting the contoller or something else also. But when you look at who is really designing the the controller and what are products useing their platfourm you have to wander how much they share. I will say I have been a little suprise and I have said this before that their is so little talk about the controller. The few reviews I have read have been positive. I have not seen anybody compare the controller to anything yet. But I have to ask with your statement about the contoller not being in the same class as the AVM50 have you heard the controller. I will tell you I haven't but want to. Some have said if the controller had another name on it they could be asking a lot more for it. I know some of the controller weak points you pointed out are some of the samething Thebland says the Halrco ssp is missing but they are working them out. He also says it is the best sounding too, but that is subjected for sure. Just because Anthems were first with some bells and whistes doesn't mean they will be the best. I think in 2 years a lot of this wont matter any way because they all will be the same again in bells and things. And if you still want VP and want it in one box that is okay too, but I hope somewhere down the line we will get everybody on HD and we really want need extra VP.
Allen

Short-sighted thinking?

I think not. I researched this quite a bit actually and not by just listening to others opinions.

That is a given. But I still stand by my expressed opinion; and to be clear here, there is no animosity or ill will attached to that opinion.

Simply put, by eliminating the Controller (as a choice) for its lack of an advanced VP, you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. The DEQ for NHT speakers is more important (IMO) than is the necessity of having an external VP shoehorned in to a pre/pro chasis. You can always get an external VP to use in concert with the Controller and you will have then bettered your system per your requirements.

Question for you, Mr. Zaracsan - have you even personally tried an external VP in your system to validate your claims about your TV's VP capabilities? Maybe most everything that you input to your display is already1080p, so it's not an issue. This isn't the case with me, as I watch a lot of TV programming on it, both SD an HD.

Our viewing habits are very different as my display (which is currently in storage during my remodel) is used mainly for movies and HD programming. Anymore, I would much rather watch HD than watch even well processed SD. HD has ruined me for SD. While I have no external VP for my PDP, I have seen my exact model Elite with two different external VPs and neither helped better the HD viewing and the SD processing did nothing to fuel my interest in SD.

<snip> I really don't think the NHT Controller and the Anthem AVM50 are really even in the same class of processor at all, and there a lot others who would likely agree.

You sir, do not know of what you speak. The Controller is mfg by Vinci Labs (owners of NHT) who are important OEM suppliers for several high end AV mfg. Where as I would consider Halcro (a Vinci Lab client for their pre/pro) 'high end', I would not consider Anthem as such. The Controller could very easily sell for twice what it retails for now, were the parent company not subsidizing the NHT electronic products. Remove the VP processing from the AVM-50 and the DEQ from the Controller, and the Controller need make no apologies to the Anthem. Talk of not being "in the same class of processor" only serves to put the exclamation on my point about your decision being short-sighted.

The Controller could very easily sell for twice what it retails for now, were the parent company not subsidizing the NHT electronic products.

Geez, hush already! Friggin' John will be after them to double the MSRP now...

:)

I'm about ready to pull the trigger on my home theater speakers. I'm set on getting 3 M5s for the front. Some of you may remember my living room photo that I posted in this thread a few months ago. If not or you don't remember, here is the entertainment center.


First, do as I say, not as I do (see my next post).
Now, if you want to do this right, use L5's or other wall-mounted speakers (see my next post) on the back wall for rear channel (7.1), and speakers on stands behind and outside the couch for surround. Of course, this would work better with Classics (or even better with Xp). You could put C4s and C3c in front, C3's on sleek stands (or C4s), and C3s on the rear wall.

Peter

New issue:
I purchased AZs for my surrounds (C3s front, haven't pulled the trigger on subwoofer yet), and need to mount the AZs on the wall. When the room was build, we had solid mounting surfaces placed, and have conduit for hidden wires. NHTs manual for the AZs specifies the OmniMount 10.0 speaker mount. I ordered a couple of those (no local dealers had more than one, and they two I found were opposite directions from my home), and when they came in, they have a 1/4" x 20 screw. The speakers have a 3/8" x 16 hole!! I called NHT (won't mention the person's name here), and they said OmniMount must have changed their specs. I emailed OmniMount, and they said they've never changed that spec - it's always been 1/4" x 20. Now I have to get an RMA, return them, but the 20.0 which apparently has the correct screw. I sure hope NHT sends me a T-shirt over this - it's IN THEIR MANUAL. :(

Peter

oldears,

I'm going with Evos because I'll be placing the M5s in the Entertainment Center. I can't really do speakers on stands since I have a hardwood floor, unless I run the cables on the floor or under the carpet.

Well that kills my suggestion, I was just about to throw out the idea of M5s on P5 stands on either side of the aquarium.

Would M5s fit in those openings above the aquarium, either vertically or horizontally?

You know, you can also mount L5s horizontally as well if that helps any.

As for all this debate of the Anthem vs the Controller based mostly on VP, I'll say it again: ;)

Me personally, I'd put pure audio performance over video processing any day of the week, and twice on Sunday! :cool:

Talk of not being "in the same class of processor" only serves to put the exclamation on my point about your decision being short-sighted.

:eek: :o :p :D ;) :cool: :)

Actually, he was right about it "not being in the same class of processor", when it comes to being matched with NHT speakers anyway. :D ;)

I've said it before and I'll say it again - you simply can't get a better pre-amp for NHT speakers, even just for 2 channel, PERIOD!

New issue:
I purchased AZs for my surrounds (C3s front, haven't pulled the trigger on subwoofer yet), and need to mount the AZs on the wall. When the room was build, we had solid mounting surfaces placed, and have conduit for hidden wires. NHTs manual for the AZs specifies the OmniMount 10.0 speaker mount. I ordered a couple of those (no local dealers had more than one, and they two I found were opposite directions from my home), and when they came in, they have a 1/4" x 20 screw. The speakers have a 3/8" x 16 hole!! I called NHT (won't mention the person's name here), and they said OmniMount must have changed their specs. I emailed OmniMount, and they said they've never changed that spec - it's always been 1/4" x 20. Now I have to get an RMA, return them, but the 20.0 which apparently has the correct screw. I sure hope NHT sends me a T-shirt over this - it's IN THEIR MANUAL. :(

Peter

WOW, sorry to hear that, but it's been my experience, and I'm not just saying this, but NHT's customer service, all the way up to Jack himself even though that might not even really be his dept., has always been extremely helpful and truly gone above and beyond on the rare occasions I've needed it (and even sometimes when I didn't ;) ).

Hopefully they will for you too.

As ericgl put it above, it's all a matter of personal preference (and not someone's shortsightedness as you keep proclaiming).

As for me, given where my current setup is at and how I use it (predominantly multichannel, with a variety of sources both HD and SD), VP is more significant to me than any additional DEQ synergy that would be provided by a pre/pro that was made by the same manufacturer as my speakers. Similar to your concern about having an extra link in your video chain, I had concerns (lip sync, HDMI passthrough capability for all audio formats) about having an standalone VP external to my pre/pro. The AVM50's "shoe-horned" VP capabilities are very favorably reviewed and passed my own Pepsi challenge.

As for DEQ, I still think I can get close to the NHT Controller solution through other means (running full range Classic 4's all around instead of using a sub and/or judicious use of external crossovers). To me, the difference is a lot more subtle. Especially in a acoustically treated room, which I'll assume you have.

This all said, here are a few, more clear cut deal breakers for me on the NHT Controller:

- lack of multi-channel LPCM input capability
- # of HDMI inputs
- lack of XLR outputs

Given this, I didn't even bother demo'ing the Controller and probably my statement regarding whether it is in the class of the Anthem is a bit premature or at most should be left to just their capabilities.

Don't get me wrong. I love NHT. With me, it started over 10 years ago with a pair of Super Ones and a SW2Pi and I have stayed NHT since. I am just not yet ready to embrace them in other means and truly feel that the AVM50 has more to offer for me right now.


Simply put, by eliminating the Controller (as a choice) for its lack of an advanced VP, you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. The DEQ for NHT speakers is more important (IMO) than is the necessity of having an external VP shoehorned in to a pre/pro chasis. You can always get an external VP to use in concert with the Controller and you will have then bettered your system per your requirements.

<snip>

New issue:
I purchased AZs for my surrounds (C3s front, haven't pulled the trigger on subwoofer yet), and need to mount the AZs on the wall. When the room was build, we had solid mounting surfaces placed, and have conduit for hidden wires. NHTs manual for the AZs specifies the OmniMount 10.0 speaker mount. I ordered a couple of those (no local dealers had more than one, and they two I found were opposite directions from my home), and when they came in, they have a 1/4" x 20 screw. The speakers have a 3/8" x 16 hole!! I called NHT (won't mention the person's name here), and they said OmniMount must have changed their specs. I emailed OmniMount, and they said they've never changed that spec - it's always been 1/4" x 20. Now I have to get an RMA, return them, but the 20.0 which apparently has the correct screw. I sure hope NHT sends me a T-shirt over this - it's IN THEIR MANUAL. :(

Peter

I think Jack should send all of us T-Shirts. :D
Allen

As for DEQ, I still think I can get close to the NHT Controller solution through other means (running full range Classic 4's all around instead of using a sub and/or judicious use of external crossovers).



The AVM's do give you a lot of control over your set up. Things like full range for stereo and a crossover for moives if you use a sub, which looks like you are not. Mr Foo do you have the anthem amps to go with the 4's. Will like to hear your take on everything when you get them up and running.
Allen

I think Jack should send all of us T-Shirts. :D
Allen Omnimount 10 worked just fine for my AZs.

Question for anyone who knows the Classic 4s. How high up from the floor are the posts located? Thanks in advance.

New issue:
I purchased AZs for my surrounds (C3s front, haven't pulled the trigger on subwoofer yet), and need to mount the AZs on the wall. When the room was build, we had solid mounting surfaces placed, and have conduit for hidden wires. NHTs manual for the AZs specifies the OmniMount 10.0 speaker mount. I ordered a couple of those (no local dealers had more than one, and they two I found were opposite directions from my home), and when they came in, they have a 1/4" x 20 screw. The speakers have a 3/8" x 16 hole!! I called NHT (won't mention the person's name here), and they said OmniMount must have changed their specs. I emailed OmniMount, and they said they've never changed that spec - it's always been 1/4" x 20. Now I have to get an RMA, return them, but the 20.0 which apparently has the correct screw. I sure hope NHT sends me a T-shirt over this - it's IN THEIR MANUAL. :(

Peter

This must be have been a running production change. From the online manual at the NHT site:

For the Absolute Zero, and the Two, use their [Omnimount] 20 series.

It can be found here:

http://nhthifi.com/2006/manuals/current/classic/Abzero-two-Manual.pdf

New issue:
I purchased AZs for my surrounds (C3s front, haven't pulled the trigger on subwoofer yet), and need to mount the AZs on the wall. When the room was build, we had solid mounting surfaces placed, and have conduit for hidden wires. NHTs manual for the AZs specifies the OmniMount 10.0 speaker mount. I ordered a couple of those (no local dealers had more than one, and they two I found were opposite directions from my home), and when they came in, they have a 1/4" x 20 screw. The speakers have a 3/8" x 16 hole!! I called NHT (won't mention the person's name here), and they said OmniMount must have changed their specs. I emailed OmniMount, and they said they've never changed that spec - it's always been 1/4" x 20. Now I have to get an RMA, return them, but the 20.0 which apparently has the correct screw. I sure hope NHT sends me a T-shirt over this - it's IN THEIR MANUAL. :(

There was a batch of AZs that had the wrong thread size. We had this issue and had to swap some out in the field and NHT hadn't realized it until we called them, from what I gather. You can use a different screw, but you should also be able to get a swap out from the dealer. I would assume NHT would have no problem with that. I'm guessing you spoke with Matt. If so, Matt's a great guy, but hasn't been around long enough to be absolutely sure about every little detail on every speaker, but he does try to get it right. He might not realize what had happened.

Peter,

We changed the threaded insert on the back of AZ about one year ago from 1/4-20" to 3/8-16". This was in response from customer complaints about the Omni-Mount 10.0 series bracket not being able to hold the speaker up, despite the fact that the AZ weighs 8lbs. At the same time, we edited the manual to reflect the fact that the AZ now useda 20.0 series mount. I'm sorry that you received a pair of speakers with the incorrect, older manual.

I'm not sure who you talked to at NHT about the Omni-Mounts, but feel free to post the information here. Omni-Mount has done some custom brackets for our speakers in the past and present, maybe there was some confusion on our part about that.

PM me with your address and shirt size.

We have never shipped any AZs with the wrong threaded insert in the back of the speaker.

Well that kills my suggestion, I was just about to throw out the idea of M5s on P5 stands on either side of the aquarium.

Would M5s fit in those openings above the aquarium, either vertically or horizontally?

You know, you can also mount L5s horizontally as well if that helps any.

What advantage would there be for using an M5 in the openings? They would fit in there either direction (tall or wide) but those holes in the wall are only 6.75" thick. The M5s are 8.5" thick so they would be balancing a little bit.

I would guess that it would be best to mount an L5 vertical vs. horizontal, but I had thought about putting them horizontal as well. If I mounted the L5s horizontal I would be able to angle them downward a little.

I could put M5s behind the couch but they would would have to be positioned pretty much right behind the couch. They could also go at the back wall on either side of the fish tank. The back wall is about 9 feet from the listening position.

If I'm trying to do just a 5.1 system and not a 7.1 system shouldn't the surrounds be on the sides facing the couch not in the back behind the couch?

Hi Everybody, I am embarrased to say but...I have been following this site for some time, as I am building my home theater and whole house audio. I am registered, but have not joined the club
I have searched the site, but cannot figure out how to post my questions! Please advise!
Judy

Judy,

At the top of each forum is a button on the left side that says "New Thread". Just click on this.

I have some NHT speakers that I am going to put up for sale, and was wondering if you could tell me what they are worth.

SB2 in Piano Black - Grills have some stains

SuperOne Ci In Wall speakers White.

Thanks

Thanks for allowing my little diversion, Jack.

Okay, everybody together now...PM Jack for your free NHT tee.


Any chance of getting a Controller chassis sent to Middle Atlantic for inclusion in their database? I see they have the Power5 and Power2 already.

Strike that request. I now see that they have a process for mere mortals to do it (betting that is how they fitted the other NHT electronic components). I will send them mine. Consider it my humble contribution to the world of HiFi enthusiasts.

Hmmm, sending a new toy back out into the world before it is even unboxed...bublewrap, must buy a LOT of bubblewrap...

I'm just happy with the free advice from Jack. ;)

We changed the threaded insert on the back of AZ about one year ago from 1/4-20" to 3/8-16".

These are good items to actually share with dealers!!! When I called about the issue, there was nothing but confusion and no answers, so I naturally assumed a bad batch since the other ones mounted up just fine with 10.0s.

despite the fact that the AZ weighs 8lbs.

Yes, but there's this torque thing.....

We need a hanger that attaches the speaker up against the wall.

We have never shipped any AZs with the wrong threaded insert in the back of the speaker.

Left hand needs to inform the right hand!

I'm just happy with the free advice from Jack. ;)

And apparently his expertise extends beyond speakers.

Judy,

At the top of each forum is a button on the left side that says "New Thread". Just click on this.

SB2 in Piano Black - Grills have some stains

Around $200-$225/pr. You can wash the grills though or order replacements for not too much.

SuperOne Ci In Wall speakers White.

Probably ~$125-$150/pr

I'm just happy with the free advice from Jack. ;)


This is so true. To be able to talk to the guy who builds and tunes your speakers is great.

But to have him send you a free T-Shirts now that would be priceless. :p
Allen

The manual still says omnimount 20, but the bolts are too large; had to return & the 10s work fine.

Question for anyone who knows the Classic 4s. How high up from the floor are the posts located? Thanks in advance.

Prolly about 4" or so to the bottom of the port, and about 6", maybe 7" to the top.

Width is pretty much the entire width of the back cabinet (rectangularish shaped).

Edit - I just realized you asked about posts, not ports. :o

Posts are a little higher up, maybe a foot or so from the bottom.

But to have him send you a free T-Shirts now that would be priceless. :p
Allen

Actually, that would be very cheap (not quite "free") advertising/marketing for NHT. ;)

The bottom set of terminals is about 11" from the ground. The top set is about 2" higher.

Anthem, we all listen for slightly qualities and annoyances when choosing speakers and in a blind comparison would rank the models somewhat differently. In the end it is your ears and your money, most all of us here are happy with our NHTs.

Amen!

Leg one

Actually, that would be very cheap (not quite "free") advertising/marketing for NHT. ;)


Then it would be a waste for here in Savannah. When people ask me what king of speakers I have and I tell them NHT, they just look at me with a blank look on their face because they don't have a clue what they are or who they are. The closest place to buy NHT is in Chaleston. About a 2 hour drive for me if the traffic is good.

Something that is funny though my uncle is into music and he has done things from building his on amps and speakers to building speakers into the walls of his living room. I don't see him much any more but the last time I was at his house he had just retaried from teacher they had moved into a new house and he had just got himself a new pair of MB quarts for his system. At the time I had MB Qaurts in my car system. Jump about 5 years to about 2 years ago when I saw him at a famliy reuion and he was telling me about these great speakers he had just got. They truned out to be NHTs. I think it was somthing in the super audio line. I told him that is what I had too, but I had 2.9's with an AC2 with 1.5's for rears at the time. I thought it kind of funny that most people don't even know what they are but we found them and owned them. Even though he is only my uncle I did spend a good bit of time with him while I was growing up. He must of rub off on me a little.
Allen

Then it would be a waste for here in Savannah. When people ask me what king of speakers I have and I tell them NHT, they just look at me with a blank look on their face because they don't have a clue what they are or who they are. The closest place to buy NHT is in Charleston. About a 2 hour drive for me if the traffic is good.

First of all - good typo/Freudian slip.

Second: How about this scenario:
John, send Allen some cards, and cut a deal with Allen for a "finders fee".
Allen, Set up a room with some 4's, get a loaner pair of 3's from John, or just let John deal with them. I can't imagine a dealer >100 miles away would mind.

Then it would be a waste for here in Savannah. When people ask me what king of speakers I have and I tell them NHT, they just look at me with a blank look on their face because they don't have a clue what they are or who they are. The closest place to buy NHT is in Chaleston. About a 2 hour drive for me if the traffic is good.

Something that is funny though my uncle is into music and he has done things from building his on amps and speakers to building speakers into the walls of his living room. I don't see him much any more but the last time I was at his house he had just retaried from teacher they had moved into a new house and he had just got himself a new pair of MB quarts for his system. At the time I had MB Qaurts in my car system. Jump about 5 years to about 2 years ago when I saw him at a famliy reuion and he was telling me about these great speakers he had just got. They truned out to be NHTs. I think it was somthing in the super audio line. I told him that is what I had too, but I had 2.9's with an AC2 with 1.5's for rears at the time. I thought it kind of funny that most people don't even know what they are but we found them and owned them. Even though he is only my uncle I did spend a good bit of time with him while I was growing up. He must of rub off on me a little.
Allen

Allen, there should be an NHT dealer, if not in, then at least a lot closer to a city the size of Savannah than that IMO.

I once pulled it up on NHT's site about two years ago or so when it showed a "map with stars", and my local dealer here who is literally right across the street from my office was the only "showroom" NHT dealer between like Washington and Atlanta (or something like that). And he hardly qualifies as a "showroom" since he doesn't stock Xds, the Controller, or Power5/2. He just finally got in Fours three months ago. :rolleyes:

BTW, I have MB Quarts in my car too. :)

First of all - good typo/Freudian slip.

Second: How about this scenario:
John, send Allen some cards, and cut a deal with Allen for a "finders fee".
Allen, Set up a room with some 4's, get a loaner pair of 3's from John, or just let John deal with them. I can't imagine a dealer >100 miles away would mind.

I'm sure Allen wouldn't mind getting a Classic Four/Controller & Power5 based system to demo! ;) :D

Are there any decent dealers in the Central NJ, Bridgewater vicinty that stock the Classic 3's for audition. The Only NHT dealer in my area, Flemington Electronics does not stock the classic series.

Thanks
Dennis

I'm sure Allen wouldn't mind getting a Classic Four/Controller & Power5 based system to demo! ;) :D

Me too! My NAD is getting old and crotchety!

Are there any decent dealers in the Central NJ, Bridgewater vicinty that stock the Classic 3's for audition. The Only NHT dealer in my area, Flemington Electronics does not stock the classic series.s

It's amazing that the Three is or is close to the best selling Classic speaker with probably half the dealers not even bothering to carry them. What *do* they carry?

It's amazing that the Three is or is close to the best selling Classic speaker with probably half the dealers not even bothering to carry them. What *do* they carry?

Stupidity? I know a lot of stores where that's a prime feature! And not just audio. It seems like every retail establishment I go into these days traffics in it!

It's amazing that the Three is or is close to the best selling Classic speaker with probably half the dealers not even bothering to carry them. What *do* they carry?

One pair of Xds and one pair of Twos in a concrete (or was it tile?) warehouse area with moveable partitions.

One pair of Xds and one pair of Twos in a concrete (or was it tile?) warehouse area with moveable partitions.

I was reading that and thinking I had a very similar experience. Then I noticed you're in Houston too. I think you went to the store I did!

I recall concrete. If we're talking about the same store, they're not NHT dealers any more, and somebody else is. But I haven't been to check them out yet.

Me too! My NAD is getting old and crotchety!

Are you sure you want to phrase that post in those exact words? :D

Are there any decent dealers in the Central NJ, Bridgewater vicinty that stock the Classic 3's for audition. The Only NHT dealer in my area, Flemington Electronics does not stock the classic series.

Thanks
Dennis

Check the NHT site under a dealer search.

Are you sure you want to phrase that post in those exact words? :D

Main Entry: crotch·ety
Pronunciation: 'krä-ch&-tE
Function: adjective
1 : given to crotchets : subject to whims, crankiness, or ill temper <a crotchety old man>

I wasn't necessarily talking about the adjectives themselves so much as rather than what the adjectives were describing. :o

I was reading that and thinking I had a very similar experience. Then I noticed you're in Houston too. I think you went to the store I did!

I recall concrete. If we're talking about the same store, they're not NHT dealers any more, and somebody else is. But I haven't been to check them out yet.

I can't find any dealers in the Houston area on NHT's site now.

I can't find any dealers in the Houston area on NHT's site now.

Huh. Guess they didn't last long with NHT either. They were off of 290 somewhere, pretty close to the loop IIRC. But can't remember the name now to check to see if they're still around at all. Never made it out there to check 'em out.

I can't find any dealers in the Houston area on NHT's site now.

It's remarkable that a city the size of Houston doesn't have a NHT dealer. It's too bad because NHT's speakers are excellent values with innovative engineering, and are imo much better than the stuff coming from the mainstream manufacturers, many of whom seem to be "phoning it in" these days.

I wasn't necessarily talking about the adjectives themselves so much as rather than what the adjectives were describing. :o

Trust me, my NAD is being crotchety!

It's remarkable that a city the size of Houston doesn't have a NHT dealer. It's too bad because NHT's speakers are excellent values with innovative engineering, and are imo much better than the stuff coming from the mainstream manufacturers, many of whom seem to be "phoning it in" these days. They may not have an authorized retail store, but there are a few authorized web dealers...check the NHT site for the list. :)

I'm sure Allen wouldn't mind getting a Classic Four/Controller & Power5 based system to demo! ;) :D


This is ture I just don't know when I would have time to show them. I work about 60 to 70 hours a week now.


Over on Hilton Head their is a place called custom audio video. When the M5 came out they were a dealer then. I heard a 5.1 setup of M5 with B&K Ref 50 and amp.
It was their entry line at the time. B&W and M&K are their upper lines. I Think B/A are the entry line now. They still have a pair of 3.3 in their high end room I would like to get. I keep hoping one day they may just want to get rid of them.
Allen

Whew, my quest is nearing completion, I hope. I literally read all 107+ pages of this thread over the past few days.

I've not heard them yet, but have heard plenty of the competition....so I went ahead and ordered a pair of Classic 3's to give 'em a try before I unload for the 3C for the center, a pair of surrounds, and a subwoofer upgrade. Hopefully, I'll have 'em all hooked up by the weekend and can post my experiences.

Short aside on local dealers:
Okay, there is a NHT dealer near me. Now, I'm all about trying to cultivate a relationship with local dealers....but...after about 90 minutes of discussion with the salesperson (I could have made this much shorter, but just let him talk) he wasn't very interested in even having me listen to speakers. (cry: I'd have like to have heard the Classic 3's) He had already decided that I'd needed a Rotel receiver, B&W's all around, a nice Denon DVD player...and this is about where I tuned out completely. All this without even discussing my room layout! Talk about gold-plated cookie cutters. It is a shame that I'll not be going back to that shop.

Back to the quest:
I'm still undecided about the surrounds (I'm doing 5.1 with a difficult spacial setup). It is pretty clear the surrounds will need to be wall mounted, probably on the rear wall (damn those sliding glass doors).

This brings me to a couple of questions:
This is my first 5.1 system (yeah I've limped along with fronts/center/sub for the last few years) so I've got plenty of 2 channel audio stuff to listen to but will be adding some 5.1 content stuff to be sure (classical, jazz, classic rock). Would I benefit really by going with the Classic 2 over the Zeros? I'd probably not go with the Classic 3's for rears. I should add that my system is probably 40% audio / 60% home theater & TV.

I plan to upgrade receivers from my Sony STR-DE945 (yes, I'll address this in another forum, but please indulge me a bit further for this forum's question). I'm not opposed to going a bit higher up the foodchain, but have to say the brand new H/K-247 is looking like it has the minimum for my needs. (HDMI 1080p + audio, pre-outs just in case I find a good used amp, etc) My concern is driving the 3's. At 86dB sensitivity, I'm worried about driving these with the 247 which H/K rates at 55 watts per channel, all channels driven or 65 watts per channel, 2-channel audio driven. My bright room (vaulted ceiling, hardwood floors, sliding glass door, 2-walls with open "4th" wall for Living room / dining room / more). Any comments on this combo of Classic 3's with a Harman Kardon AVR-247?

It's remarkable that a city the size of Houston doesn't have a NHT dealer. It's too bad because NHT's speakers are excellent values with innovative engineering, and are imo much better than the stuff coming from the mainstream manufacturers, many of whom seem to be "phoning it in" these days.

There's a lot of stuff that Houston shoudl have considering its size. We're the black sheep of big ciities. But hey. Still not a bad place to be.

They may not have an authorized retail store, but there are a few authorized web dealers...check the NHT site for the list. :)

Fortunately I am pretty well set with my 5 Threes, but I could use another X2. Hopefully this year will bring a Controller.

Nothing against AA or the OC both of whom I've dealt with in the past, but I'd rather give my business to a smaller, more personal shop. Especially if I have to pay retail anyway.

It's remarkable that a city the size of Houston doesn't have a NHT dealer.

Wow! And I thought it was bad a city the size of Savannah didn't have one. :o Isn't Houston one of the 5 or 6 biggest cities in the country? :eek:

It's too bad because NHT's speakers are excellent values with innovative engineering, and are imo much better than the stuff coming from the mainstream manufacturers, many of whom seem to be "phoning it in" these days.

That's true. In fact, it may sound somewhat snobbish on my part, but because of things like the Xds (and a little taste of their "trickle down" technology in the Classics), the Controller with it's built in NHT model specific Deq, the built in "room tuning" options (such as the boundary control adjustments, both on the monitors and the subs) on the Evolutions, etc, I almost look down my nose now at some other real good speaker companies which I actually like and respect, but don't have some of the engineering like I pointed out (and I'm not just talking about some of the typical mass market mid-fi brands either). ;)

Trust me, my NAD is being crotchety!

We'll all just to have to take your word for it John. :D

We'll all just to have to take your word for it John. :D

Oh. Wait. I am slow, but I eventually get the joke!!!!

SMARTASS!!!!!!

This is ture I just don't know when I would have time to show them. I work about 60 to 70 hours a week now.


Over on Hilton Head their is a place called custom audio video. When the M5 came out they were a dealer then. I heard a 5.1 setup of M5 with B&K Ref 50 and amp.
It was their entry line at the time. B&W and M&K are their upper lines. I Think B/A are the entry line now. They still have a pair of 3.3 in their high end room I would like to get. I keep hoping one day they may just want to get rid of them.
Allen

Allen, I have some B&K 2 channel separates on the M5s of my T5s right now, a Reference 5 S2 tuner/pre-amp (with built in bass management, fixed high and low pass crossovers at 80 Hz with 12 Db slopes) and a Reference 125.2 S2 power amp.

I figure the power amp should be putting out right at 150 watts per channel into the M5's 6 Ohm load. It's a sweet sounding combination with great synergy, but that Mosfet amp sure gets HOT! :eek:

I'm not just saying this, but I've honestly never heard a B&W or M&K speaker that I would take over the M5s at anything at least 2 or 3 times the price of them.

I know someone with a full set up of M&Ks (don't know the model #s though), and they sound great for movies, but I sure wouldn't trade for them.

As for the 3.3s you want, since you already have some M5s anyway, why not just try to get a set of B5s and put an X1 with dual A1s on them for stereo bass?

I honestly like the T5s better than the 3.3s, especially with dual A1s for stereo bass. Any T5 owners that haven't done this yet, if you listen to any music at all, you owe it to yourself to get another A1 for them. The A1s are putting out approximately 135 watts into a single B5 or W2 cabinet's 12 Ohm load, so it really doesn't give them that much more power, but the difference on music is a very noticeable improvement.

Oh. Wait. I am slow, but I eventually get the joke!!!!

SMARTASS!!!!!!

HA HA HA HA!

ROTFLMAO! :D

Okay, there is a NHT dealer near me. Now, I'm all about trying to cultivate a relationship with local dealers....but...after about 90 minutes of discussion with the salesperson (I could have made this much shorter, but just let him talk) he wasn't very interested in even having me listen to speakers. (cry: I'd have like to have heard the Classic 3's) He had already decided that I'd needed a Rotel receiver, B&W's all around, a nice Denon DVD player...

That's a bummer, hopefully you'll fall in love with the Threes. Funny thing is that they have more in common with the $50K Nautilus speakers than any of the other B&Ws. Unfortunately, there's a thing going on where salesman, reviewers, populace generally assume that whatever the more expensive speaker sounds like, that's the way a speaker *should* sound, instead of going with what is more neutral and transparent. I think B&Ws have a very catchy flavor, but there's not a one of them I'd take over Threes or Fours. Well, *maybe* 800Ds if they were free, but even then, I'd take Xds. I don't think NHT is a good brand to have for a B&W dealer because the sound so different and if they're given equal treatment, they're going to take sales away. And if they treat B&W better, then it's not a good or fair deal for NHT. I suspect they don't have Xd do they? If this is the store in CA I'm thinking of, one of my customers may have bought their Xd demo because they wanted rid of it ASAP. He was thrilled since he got a great deal on a demo and felt they outperformed the 800Ds sitting next to them, which is why you have to let the customer decide what they want even after you tell them what you *think* is right for them. Knowing what they like helps too!

Would I benefit really by going with the Classic 2 over the Zeros? I'd probably not go with the Classic 3's for rears.

Threes are ideal. I think AZs are just fine if you can't get the Three. They have a bit wider dispersion than the Twos in theory.

My concern is driving the 3's. At 86dB sensitivity, I'm worried about driving these with the 247 which H/K rates at 55 watts per channel, all channels driven or 65 watts per channel, 2-channel audio driven. My bright room (vaulted ceiling, hardwood floors, sliding glass door, 2-walls with open "4th" wall for Living room / dining room / more). Any comments on this combo of Classic 3's with a Harman Kardon AVR-247?

The H/K should do it in a reasonable room, but may not go to "11". The H/K really puts out 55W RMS, unlike the Japanese receivers.

Whew, my quest is nearing completion, I hope. I literally read all 107+ pages of this thread over the past few days.

I've not heard them yet, but have heard plenty of the competition....so I went ahead and ordered a pair of Classic 3's to give 'em a try before I unload for the 3C for the center, a pair of surrounds, and a subwoofer upgrade. Hopefully, I'll have 'em all hooked up by the weekend and can post my experiences.

Short aside on local dealers:
Okay, there is a NHT dealer near me. Now, I'm all about trying to cultivate a relationship with local dealers....but...after about 90 minutes of discussion with the salesperson (I could have made this much shorter, but just let him talk) he wasn't very interested in even having me listen to speakers. (cry: I'd have like to have heard the Classic 3's) He had already decided that I'd needed a Rotel receiver, B&W's all around, a nice Denon DVD player...and this is about where I tuned out completely. All this without even discussing my room layout! Talk about gold-plated cookie cutters. It is a shame that I'll not be going back to that shop.

Back to the quest:
I'm still undecided about the surrounds (I'm doing 5.1 with a difficult spacial setup). It is pretty clear the surrounds will need to be wall mounted, probably on the rear wall (damn those sliding glass doors).

This brings me to a couple of questions:
This is my first 5.1 system (yeah I've limped along with fronts/center/sub for the last few years) so I've got plenty of 2 channel audio stuff to listen to but will be adding some 5.1 content stuff to be sure (classical, jazz, classic rock). Would I benefit really by going with the Classic 2 over the Zeros? I'd probably not go with the Classic 3's for rears. I should add that my system is probably 40% audio / 60% home theater & TV.

I plan to upgrade receivers from my Sony STR-DE945 (yes, I'll address this in another forum, but please indulge me a bit further for this forum's question). I'm not opposed to going a bit higher up the foodchain, but have to say the brand new H/K-247 is looking like it has the minimum for my needs. (HDMI 1080p + audio, pre-outs just in case I find a good used amp, etc) My concern is driving the 3's. At 86dB sensitivity, I'm worried about driving these with the 247 which H/K rates at 55 watts per channel, all channels driven or 65 watts per channel, 2-channel audio driven. My bright room (vaulted ceiling, hardwood floors, sliding glass door, 2-walls with open "4th" wall for Living room / dining room / more). Any comments on this combo of Classic 3's with a Harman Kardon AVR-247?

The HK 247 will be enough for them so long as it's not a huge room, and especially if you have them crossed over to a sub at 80 Hz anyway. I ran a pair of Threes for a while with a HK 240 that I got on a Target clearance rack of all places for less than $200 believe it or not.

I know what you mean about the dealer you were talking about. The one here tries to push Revel over NHT at every opportunity he gets. :(

Just food for thought, but if you have a reflective room and like to listen to rock music, I would highly recommended Evolution M5s over anything in the Classic series (or M6s if it's a huge room).

I know what you mean about the dealer you were talking about. The one here tries to push Revel over NHT at every opportunity he gets. :(

That's why NHT needs to have a $12K-$15K speaker for the dealers that want to sell them. Without that, they're going to get short shrift in a lot of places. Sell somebody an affordable Revel or B&W and you can step them up to $20K. Sell them an NHT and they max out at $6K including the amps and subs, so in reality, the most expensive NHTs are only about $2K-$3K from a dealer perspective!

Wow! And I thought it was bad a city the size of Savannah didn't have one. :o Isn't Houston one of the 5 or 6 biggest cities in the country? :eek:

Fourth largest. To be fair, we've had two; they just haven't stuck with the brand. Or they went out of business. Not sure which.

But hey, didn't stop me from getting my NHTs...

That's why NHT needs to have a $12K-$15K speaker for the dealers that want to sell them. Without that, they're going to get short shrift in a lot of places. Sell somebody an affordable Revel or B&W and you can step them up to $20K. Sell them an NHT and they max out at $6K including the amps and subs, so in reality, the most expensive NHTs are only about $2K-$3K from a dealer perspective!

What's funny though, is that dealer here even begrudgingly admitted that the Xds were better than the Revel Performa F52 at the 6K price point, although it looked as if it was almost actually physically hurting him to say it out loud. :D

When you consider that you also get the amps and speaker wire with the Xds (not to even mention the stands), the Xd's true head to head Revel competition from a price stand point is prolly really a lot more like the $4k Performa F32 (because adding the cost of an amp and wires to that of the F52's will obviously push the price higher than $6K), and the gap between the F32s and Xds will be even just that much higher than it is between Xds and F52s.

I would personally take a pair of T6s, or M6s on P6s (or either Threes on stands) along with dual W1s over F32s any day of the week at the $4k price point.

At the 2.5K price point, I would damned for sure take T5s, or M5s/P5s (or either Threes on stands) along with a U1 sub or a U2 set over the Performa M22s and their matching stands with no sub at all.

I will admit though that I can see why someone would pick a Revel Concerta M12/C12 combo over NHT Classic Two/2C combo at the same price points though. To be honest, I would myself. :o

Fourth largest. To be fair, we've had two; they just haven't stuck with the brand. Or they went out of business. Not sure which.

But hey, didn't stop me from getting my NHTs...

I think I saw somewhere where Phoenix had became the 4th largest, passing Philly and Houston.

Fortunately I am pretty well set with my 5 Threes, but I could use another X2. Hopefully this year will bring a Controller.

Nothing against AA or the OC both of whom I've dealt with in the past, but I'd rather give my business to a smaller, more personal shop. Especially if I have to pay retail anyway.

Weren't you the one using an X2 with AV123 subs?

I think I saw somewhere where Phoenix had became the 4th largest, passing Philly and Houston.

Perhaps. I should have mentioned that I'm quoting the conventional wisdom (or ignorance) around here, not anything so concrete as actual statistics.

I just saw it on TV, on ABC News if memory serves me correctly, but I guess that doesn't necessarily make it true either though. :p

Regardless though, bottom line, a city of Houston's size population wise should have at least one NHT dealer. :o :( :mad:

I just saw it on TV, on ABC News if memory serves me correctly, but I guess that doesn't necessarily make it true either though. :p

Regardless though, bottom line, a city of Houston's size population wise should have at least one NHT dealer. :o :( :mad:

And preferrably one as knowledgable and helpful as John, because god knows that one certainly wasn't...

Whew, my quest is nearing completion, I hope. I literally read all 107+ pages of this thread over the past few days.

I've not heard them yet, but have heard plenty of the competition....so I went ahead and ordered a pair of Classic 3's to give 'em a try before I unload for the 3C for the center, a pair of surrounds, and a subwoofer upgrade. Hopefully, I'll have 'em all hooked up by the weekend and can post my experiences.

Short aside on local dealers:
Okay, there is a NHT dealer near me. Now, I'm all about trying to cultivate a relationship with local dealers....but...after about 90 minutes of discussion with the salesperson (I could have made this much shorter, but just let him talk) he wasn't very interested in even having me listen to speakers. (cry: I'd have like to have heard the Classic 3's) He had already decided that I'd needed a Rotel receiver, B&W's all around, a nice Denon DVD player...and this is about where I tuned out completely. All this without even discussing my room layout! Talk about gold-plated cookie cutters. It is a shame that I'll not be going back to that shop.

Back to the quest:
I'm still undecided about the surrounds (I'm doing 5.1 with a difficult spacial setup). It is pretty clear the surrounds will need to be wall mounted, probably on the rear wall (damn those sliding glass doors).

etc.For the record, I purchased 3's, a 3c, and AZs for the rear, which I'm wall-mounting. Haven't decided on a subwoofer yet - either NHT U2 (which I prefer to the Classic series subs) or a pair of Tannoy TS-10s (got one in yesterday, for a friend, and just breaking it in (in my home) for her now). BTW, OmniMount makes a ceiling mount (20.0 Ceiling) which works for the Classic series (BUT NOT THE FOUR :) ) and could solve your rear channel dilemma.

Your other (better) option would be to get a pair of Fours for the front, use the 3's hung from the ceiling or (better) on stands in the back, C3c in center, and no sub but a better amp and bi-amp the Fours. Don't worry too much about the HDMI switching modern receivers/pre-pro's, because you can use the TV inputs and a remote that does macros - just have the receive and TV switch separately with a single button push.

Peter

Is the classic 10 subwoofer a good option? I know it's not an SVS but I can get a pretty good deal on one. For anybody that has it, what are your thoughts?

Is the classic 10 subwoofer a good option? I know it's not an SVS but I can get a pretty good deal on one. For anybody that has it, what are your thoughts?

Depends entirely on what size speaker you're pairing it with, your priorities for bass, etc.

And preferrably one as knowledgable and helpful as John, because god knows that one certainly wasn't...

:o

:o

Were your ears burning?

Is the classic 10 subwoofer a good option? I know it's not an SVS but I can get a pretty good deal on one. For anybody that has it, what are your thoughts?

The Ten is a really good choice for a small to medium sized room. It doesn't go as deep, but most small rooms cancel out bass below about 30-35Hz anyway, especially if the walls are very rigid. I actually had a guy trade in a PB16-41 or whatever it's called for the Ten and is very happy, as is his wife!

Thanks. It would be for a bedroom system. Thinking of the Threes and Three C center for the front and Absolute Zero for the rears with Marantz receiver. So other speakers would be NHT. I just don't want to be disappointed like I am with my Polk PSW303 sub I have now which SUCKS.

Thanks. It would be for a bedroom system. Thinking of the Threes and Three C center for the front and Absolute Zero for the rears with Marantz receiver. So other speakers would be NHT. I just don't want to be disappointed like I am with my Polk PSW303 sub I have now which SUCKS.

My inclination on the one hand would be to do a 12" sub with the Threes since they have a 6.5" woofer, but, honestly, in a bedroom, the Ten would probably be fine. I use an 8" NHT SW1P in a bedroom system, but that's with SuperZeroes and is just for music.

I had the old SW12 for a while, so I'm extrapolating, but I'm sure the Ten is a nice little sub. I just happy to be sold on the virtues of sealed subs these days.

If you want tight, clean, precise, you might even consider the new Verve sub. Very precise, but perhaps too lean for some. Are you sure you even need a sub for a bedroom system?

The Ten isn't sealed is it?

No. Only Evolution and Verve and Xd

Are the Evolution and Verve in the same price range as the 10? I know the XD is not

Are the Evolution and Verve in the same price range as the 10? I know the XD is not

Verve is, sort of. Evolution, I'd say definitely not in the same price range.

John, I thought Jack said that the Verve stuff was not available for purchase a la carte?

Hold off for a day and I'll give you my impressions on the 3's with the Tannoy TS-10 sub. It's sealed, tiny (12 x 12 x 13"), rather efficient (300W and gets loud without distortion), and very musical, but I haven't listened to one with the 3's yet, at least not broken in. I left if on for the past 24 hours, so it might be ready now. Price about the same as the Classic 10 (around $500). Tannoy is a British company, very old (from the 40's), known for stadium loudspeakers in the early days. They make great subs although few in the US know much about them.

As I said in my prior post, I'll probably go with 2 of them or, more likely, the U2 setup, but mine's for a home theater setup, not a bedroom.

Thanks. It would be for a bedroom system. Thinking of the Threes and Three C center for the front and Absolute Zero for the rears with Marantz receiver. So other speakers would be NHT. I just don't want to be disappointed like I am with my Polk PSW303 sub I have now which SUCKS.

While the Ten isn't exactly a SVS PB12/Ultra 2 or anything, it is a little more sub than a Polk 303.

Your other (better) option would be to get a pair of Fours for the front, use the 3's hung from the ceiling or (better) on stands in the back, C3c in center, and no sub but a better amp and bi-amp the Fours.

That's an idea! The HK 247 could EASILY handle the upper range drivers from 125 Hz and up on a pair of Fours bi-amped with it and an X2 and A1s (plus it does have necessary pre-outs to do so), but Fours with an X2 and A1s would cost significantly more than Threes, a set of stands, and a Ten. :eek:

*(would be worth every penny of it though)* :D

You wouldn't even need any other sub or subs, and you could really dial the bass on them in as close to perfection as possible in your room with the X2.

John, I thought Jack said that the Verve stuff was not available for purchase a la carte?

It is, except for a single as a separate price point. Even then, a dealer could split it easily as they all come in separate boxes. Not sure what the theoretical issue is but we'll certainly split it for customers. It's just that the speakers themselves come in two or three to a master pack, despite being boxed individually inside.

I think I saw somewhere where Phoenix had became the 4th largest, passing Philly and Houston.

Not as of 2005, but who knows, maybe were not getting our fair share of undocumenteds. I hadn't noticed any shortage however.

Weren't you the one using an X2 with AV123 subs?

Two more subs are coming. I will be running 5 Threes full range with 5 subs plus one for the LFE.

Yes I expect some tweak time.

Two more subs are coming. I will be running 5 Threes full range with 5 subs plus one for the LFE.

Yes I expect some tweak time.

What kind of subs?

Will you be getting more X2s? (I seem to remember you weren't happy with your pre-pro's bass management)

What crossover point will you be using?

How close to each Three will it's individual sub physically be?

BTW everybody, since the NAD M3 is now ranked as Class A by Stereophile, I now have a Stereophile Class A integrated amp on my Stereophile Class A rated T6 speakers. :D

*(sorry, just had to gloat a little)* :p

A total of 4 ULW-10s, one ufw-10, and a UFW-12 for the LFE. I guess I like sealed subs, :)

At least one more X2. I may try something else (HSU high pass?) on one channel and use the sub's low pass.

100Hz to start.

Fronts, 32" sub center the 6.5 center, rears ~50".

*(sorry, just had to gloat a little)* :p

And justifiably so!

I just got word that my X-1 20hz cutoff mod is finished and the X-1 is on its way back to me. I'll report when it arrives (it's expected on Friday).

I just got word that my X-1 20hz cutoff mod is finished and the X-1 is on its way back to me. I'll report when it arrives (it's expected on Friday). Once again, ditto...Mine is also done & should be here for some heavy load testing this w/e. Howdy neighbor, can you hear me now ? :eek:
Thanks to Matt & Jack for some A grade customer service!

Once again, ditto...Mine is also done & should be here for some heavy load testing this w/e. Howdy neighbor, can you hear me now ? :eek:
Where do you live? I'm in Massachusetts so I had to send it 3 day service (and back) to get it here this coming weekend.

Just some place they call Santa Barbara....in dreadful old Southern California <insert hate mail here> LOL ;)

Damn. One day shipping. Lucky you...

BTW everybody, since the NAD M3 is now ranked as Class A by Stereophile, I now have a Stereophile Class A integrated amp on my Stereophile Class A rated T6 speakers. :D

*(sorry, just had to gloat a little)* :p

Mark I know I have asked before. With all of the NHT speakers you have. All of the different receviers and amps you have used or use now to power them with. If you had to sell, give or just throw away (Joking of course :eek: ) What system would you keep to do all of your HT and music listen with. I think I know your answer but would like to hear from you. Now on powering them I have no idear what you would pick. I think you have had about 7 or 8 different things powering your nht over the years.
Allen

As for the 3.3s you want, since you already have some M5s anyway, why not just try to get a set of B5s and put an X1 with dual A1s on them for stereo bass?

I honestly like the T5s better than the 3.3s, especially with dual A1s for stereo bass. Any T5 owners that haven't done this yet, if you listen to any music at all, you owe it to yourself to get another A1 for them. The A1s are putting out approximately 135 watts into a single B5 or W2 cabinet's 12 Ohm load, so it really doesn't give them that much more power, but the difference on music is a very noticeable improvement.

When I move my sytem up to my bouns room (16' x 21') in a few more months I plan on going back and comparing the M5 and M6 again for my L/C/R speaker. I think of the things that has me with the 6's over the 5's is my job. I work in a factory working on some of the lagest paper machines in the world that make tissue. We run speeds up to 6200 fpm and we turn 10 ton reels of paper over 45 minutes at that speed. When you turn over parent rolls you bring down a 25" round solid steel spool that is rubber coated a little over 290" long and weighs 12,000 lbs, but when it hits the reel you can hear it as far as 1/4 of a mile away. I keep saying I am going to bring my RS meter in to see how loud it is. But I know my hearing is good because we have to have hearing test every year but I do have some lost of hearing.

Also I am planing to add the u1 subs to my setup down the road.

Allen

...good because we have to have hearing test every year but I do have some lost of hearing.

Allen

Don't trust anyone else with your hearing. If you have to raise your voice while you're working you need hearing protection. If it's really loud you may need ear plugs and ear muffs.

Sincerely,
Martin

I'm not sure if this post should go in another area but I wanted to get your opinions here as I have decided to go the NHT route. I had a very good listening session at a dealer last Saturday. He used a NAIM DVD player, a Cambridge Audio Azur 540C V2 CDP, a Cambridge Audio Azur 640R HT receiver. The speakers were the ones I wish to buy: Classic 4's, 3C3, Classic 3's (no sub & also with NHT sub).

The sound was absolutely fabulous in movies, I liked it better without the sub than with as I found the bass less overpowering and very accurate; didn't get the teeth rattling LFE some describe though. On music I was very impressed with the NAIM DVD player but when the dealer used the Cambridge Audio CDP it was an incredible lift in the experience, really realistic and wide soundstage with accurate positioning. It was surprisingly like the Mirage system we really enjoyed previously. So the wife and I are very happy campers and will be buying a set of these NHT speakers :D . Thank you all for the very kind advice.

I would like now to ask your help with the receiver choice. I will get a Chinese made CD/DVD player brand BBK locally as they almost give them away here (called OPPO in the US) and with what budget I have left I want to get a decent receiver. I previously wanted to get the Yamaha 2700 but have had cautions from some posters here and other boards that it may cause an overly bright sound with NHT. (I really worry about this as bright sound really hurts my ears e.g. for me the Klipsch speakers are literally painful to listen to.) I cannot test it here as the NHT dealer doesn't carry Yamaha. The Cambridge Audio 640R has lovely sound both for movies and 2 channel music but it has only HDMI switching and no upscaling/deinterlacing ability (i.e. not very well future proofed?)

Can you recommend me suitable receivers with sufficient power, HT punch and musicality on 2 channel, with true HDMI capability and deinterlacing ability, with Bi-amp ability and pre-outs for the same money as a Yamaha 2700 or am I wrong in my doubting the future proofing of the Cambridge Audio 640R which sounded great? (I also tried to import Emotiva separates for the same price range but they do not export to Hong Kong).
Thanks for chipping in, I'm really learning here :)

Don't trust anyone else with your hearing. If you have to raise your voice while you're working you need hearing protection. If it's really loud you may need ear plugs and ear muffs.

Sincerely,
Martin

We have to wear hearing protection any time we are on the floor and I do.
Thanks
Allen

I'm not sure if this post should go in another area but I wanted to get your opinions here as I have decided to go the NHT route. I had a very good listening session at a dealer last Saturday. He used a NAIM DVD player, a Cambridge Audio Azur 540C V2 CDP, a Cambridge Audio Azur 640R HT receiver. The speakers were the ones I wish to buy: Classic 4's, 3C3, Classic 3's (no sub & also with NHT sub).

The sound was absolutely fabulous in movies, I liked it better without the sub than with as I found the bass less overpowering and very accurate; didn't get the teeth rattling LFE some describe though. On music I was very impressed with the NAIM DVD player but when the dealer used the Cambridge Audio CDP it was an incredible lift in the experience, really realistic and wide soundstage with accurate positioning. It was surprisingly like the Mirage system we really enjoyed previously. So the wife and I are very happy campers and will be buying a set of these NHT speakers :D . Thank you all for the very kind advice.

I would like now to ask your help with the receiver choice. I will get a Chinese made CD/DVD player brand BBK locally as they almost give them away here (called OPPO in the US) and with what budget I have left I want to get a decent receiver. I previously wanted to get the Yamaha 2700 but have had cautions from some posters here and other boards that it may cause an overly bright sound with NHT. (I really worry about this as bright sound really hurts my ears e.g. for me the Klipsch speakers are literally painful to listen to.) I cannot test it here as the NHT dealer doesn't carry Yamaha. The Cambridge Audio 640R has lovely sound both for movies and 2 channel music but it has only HDMI switching and no upscaling/deinterlacing ability (i.e. not very well future proofed?)

Can you recommend me suitable receivers with sufficient power, HT punch and musicality on 2 channel, with true HDMI capability and deinterlacing ability, with Bi-amp ability and pre-outs for the same money as a Yamaha 2700 or am I wrong in my doubting the future proofing of the Cambridge Audio 640R which sounded great? (I also tried to import Emotiva separates for the same price range but they do not export to Hong Kong).
Thanks for chipping in, I'm really learning here :)


If you can do without the upscaling/de-interlacing, and don't mind spending a little extra, you might want to audition the Arcam AVR350. It has more than enough grunt, apparently is quite the piece for two-channel listening, and you can bi-amp the front mains. It is available in silver or black.

A total of 4 ULW-10s, one ufw-10, and a UFW-12 for the LFE. I guess I like sealed subs, :)

At least one more X2. I may try something else (HSU high pass?) on one channel and use the sub's low pass.

100Hz to start.

Fronts, 32" sub center the 6.5 center, rears ~50".
Perfect for that Tuba Quartet! :D

Peter

I listened to the 3s with the Tannoy TS-10 sub. I had it crossed over at 80, set to 50 Hz bottom end (tried 40 also and couldn't hear the difference but they recommended higher for "music"), and 0 degree phase. For music, it was fantastic. At first, it seemed a little intrusive, but I kept turning down the gain and it got to the point I couldn't hear it--but the music sounded wonderful. I set the front channel to "large" and turned off the sub, and the 3s were definitely missing that bottom end that had been present with the sub (but I hadn't missed much for the last 4 weeks of listening to the 3s without a sub). With the sub, the music sounds more complete. A very musical sub.

Then I tried HT. No rear channels or center channel (remember my post about the wrong speaker mounts - still waiting for the right ones, and the C3c hasn't come in yet). The sub was again unobtrusive, but remember I'd turned it way down for the music. The movie felt much better with the sub, but turning up the gain improved it significantly. Remember this is a 10" sub in a 13' x 14' listening area of a 13' x 25' room, 7.5' ceiling. I'm planning on 2 subs eventually, and I think that would have made the difference for LFE. If this were to be a pure HT setup with only one sub, this probably wouldn't be it. If this were to be a pure music setup with only one sub, this would definitely be it (I'd have to change the settings for the Saint-Saens Organ Symphony, though). I'll listen more over the next few days, but I think I'll end up with a U2 setup. Any feedback?

Peter

A total of 4 ULW-10s, one ufw-10, and a UFW-12 for the LFE. I guess I like sealed subs, :)

At least one more X2. I may try something else (HSU high pass?) on one channel and use the sub's low pass.

100Hz to start.

Fronts, 32" sub center the 6.5 center, rears ~50".

Sounds good!

To get the Three's mids to sound like the Four's, you would have to cross over from the subs to the lower midbass at 125 Hz, but you would have to have each sub within a foot or two of it's corresponding Three to avoid localization at that point.

100 Hz maybe a good compromise. At least it's a good starting point for experimentation anyway.

Mark I know I have asked before. With all of the NHT speakers you have. All of the different receviers and amps you have used or use now to power them with. If you had to sell, give or just throw away (Joking of course :eek: ) What system would you keep to do all of your HT and music listen with. I think I know your answer but would like to hear from you. Now on powering them I have no idear what you would pick. I think you have had about 7 or 8 different things powering your nht over the years.
Allen

Allen, funny you should ask that, cause I have been planning on scaling down and consolidating anyway. For instance, as good as the ST4 and SB3 are, the fact is, the Four and Three are both better than their previous generation counterparts, and why listen to ST4s when you can listen to Fours instead?

That was a part of the reason I traded one of my VT3 sets for the Classic Four based set, to get rid of some redundancy to get something new.

I've already gave my folks the VT-1.4/VS-1.4 surround set, and they love it! The VT-1.4s are incredible little speakers, and I just couldn't bear to part with them.

I would rate the main L/R pairs like this (in this order):
XD
VT3/T5 (tie, they each do some things better than the other, as is the case with nearly all of NHT's speakers)
T6
Four (for now, but they may be unfairly benefiting from the Controller's Deq that the 3.3 doesn't have quite yet)
3.3
2.9
VT-1.4
ST4

I have 3 NHT surround systems at home (T5/M5/L5, VT3/VC3/VR3, and Four/3C/Three), and 3 NHT 2 channel rigs (XD, T6, 3.3).

I'm prolly going to give the 3.3s the boot. I never listen to them much if any at all anymore. I've already given the surround system with 2.9s and 3 AC2s (center and surrounds) the boot. They are all sitting in an unused spare closet, and I'm prolly going to sell all the old Music Series models I have (3.3s, 2.9s, and the 3 AC2s). I'll wait to hear them with the Controller's Deq update for the older models first before I do though. After all, you never know. ;) I'm prolly going to sell the SuperAudios I have too (ST4, SB3).

To cut to the chase of your question, since I don't have a full surround set of Xds, for music and movies, I would keep the T5/M5/L5 based system since there's usually only two of us to watch movies, thus we really wouldn't need the wide dispersion of the Classics as much, and since I like mostly rock music, I think the T5s do that better than the Fours. Of course, they would be powered by the Controller/Power5, with an X1. I might would also add dual W1s with a 20 Hz modded X1 to that equation too for movies. :eek:

Make no mistake about it though, the Xds are awesome! The NAD M3 and T6s retail for about the same as a dual sub XD system, and as good as they are (the M3 is also totally freakin' awesome unto itself!), and even though you would still need a pre-amp. I would still recommend the Xds at that price point over them.

When I move my sytem up to my bouns room (16' x 21') in a few more months I plan on going back and comparing the M5 and M6 again for my L/C/R speaker. I think of the things that has me with the 6's over the 5's is my job. I work in a factory working on some of the lagest paper machines in the world that make tissue. We run speeds up to 6200 fpm and we turn 10 ton reels of paper over 45 minutes at that speed. When you turn over parent rolls you bring down a 25" round solid steel spool that is rubber coated a little over 290" long and weighs 12,000 lbs, but when it hits the reel you can hear it as far as 1/4 of a mile away. I keep saying I am going to bring my RS meter in to see how loud it is. But I know my hearing is good because we have to have hearing test every year but I do have some lost of hearing.

Also I am planing to add the u1 subs to my setup down the road.

Allen

Allen I was exposed for like 20 years to any combination of jet engines at very close range talking off and landing, gunfire, loud live rock music, and wind noise from riding a Harley. I usually always wore earplugs though, but I'm still sure I lost at least some hearing just the same. For right now though, knock on wood, it seems to be fine.

As long as you wear your hearing protection, you should be OK.

I think you'll really dig the U1s. :D

Can you recommend me suitable receivers with sufficient power, HT punch and musicality on 2 channel, with true HDMI capability and deinterlacing ability, with Bi-amp ability and pre-outs for the same money as a Yamaha 2700 or am I wrong in my doubting the future proofing of the Cambridge Audio 640R which sounded great? (I also tried to import Emotiva separates for the same price range but they do not export to Hong Kong).
Thanks for chipping in, I'm really learning here :)

Some of the newer NAD, HK, and maybe Marantz models should be on your shortlist.

As you found out for yourself, CA makes great sounding gear. I think they are on the same level as NAD and Rotel, but they just don't have the features of some of the Japanese brands.

I listened to the 3s with the Tannoy TS-10 sub. I had it crossed over at 80, set to 50 Hz bottom end (tried 40 also and couldn't hear the difference but they recommended higher for "music"), and 0 degree phase. For music, it was fantastic. At first, it seemed a little intrusive, but I kept turning down the gain and it got to the point I couldn't hear it--but the music sounded wonderful. I set the front channel to "large" and turned off the sub, and the 3s were definitely missing that bottom end that had been present with the sub (but I hadn't missed much for the last 4 weeks of listening to the 3s without a sub). With the sub, the music sounds more complete. A very musical sub.

Then I tried HT. No rear channels or center channel (remember my post about the wrong speaker mounts - still waiting for the right ones, and the C3c hasn't come in yet). The sub was again unobtrusive, but remember I'd turned it way down for the music. The movie felt much better with the sub, but turning up the gain improved it significantly. Remember this is a 10" sub in a 13' x 14' listening area of a 13' x 25' room, 7.5' ceiling. I'm planning on 2 subs eventually, and I think that would have made the difference for LFE. If this were to be a pure HT setup with only one sub, this probably wouldn't be it. If this were to be a pure music setup with only one sub, this would definitely be it (I'd have to change the settings for the Saint-Saens Organ Symphony, though). I'll listen more over the next few days, but I think I'll end up with a U2 setup. Any feedback?

Peter

Never heard the Tannoy subs, so I won't comment on them, but the X1 on the U2 with it's separate master gain and LFE gain adjustments will allow you to dial in at the same time both "tight" tuneful bass, as well as "gut wrenching" bass for both movies and music, the best of both worlds. :)

Don't trust anyone else with your hearing. If you have to raise your voice while you're working you need hearing protection. If it's really loud you may need ear plugs and ear muffs.

Sincerely,
Martin

Truly words of wisdom.

And that goes for all of us who may be cranking up the volume a little too loud when we listen to music or watch movies. Maybe it wouldn't hurt to back the volume down just a little. Especially VT3 and T6 owners since they will both play louder than 40 hells! :eek:

That's why NHT needs to have a $12K-$15K speaker for the dealers that want to sell them. Without that, they're going to get short shrift in a lot of places. Sell somebody an affordable Revel or B&W and you can step them up to $20K. Sell them an NHT and they max out at $6K including the amps and subs, so in reality, the most expensive NHTs are only about $2K-$3K from a dealer perspective!

John, serious question, but if the T6 and Xd don't (or didn't) really sell all that much at $4K and $6K respectively, despite being 2 of the lowest priced models to warrant a Stereophile Class A rating, what chance do you really think a $12-15K NHT speaker would have of selling much?