To cut to the chase of your question, since I don't have a full surround set of Xds, for music and movies, I would keep the T5/M5/L5 based system since there's usually only two of us to watch movies, thus we really wouldn't need the wide dispersion of the Classics as much, and since I like mostly rock music, I think the T5s do that better than the Fours. Of course, they would be powered by the Controller/Power5, with an X1. I might would also add dual W1s with a 20 Hz modded X1 to that equation too for movies. :eek:



I would have bet this would have been your answer. That is why I said I am going to go back a revist the m5 to the m6 for my lcr. I just want to get some better power on them like the power5 instead of my old Denon.
Allen

John, serious question, but if the T6 and Xd don't (or didn't) really sell all that much at $4K and $6K respectively, despite being 2 of the lowest priced models to warrant a Stereophile Class A rating, what chance do you really think a $12-15K NHT speaker would have of selling much?

Ah, let me teach you about perception, grasshopper!

small = small sound
small = no bass
small = doesn't play loud
affordable = not good enough

None of the actual reality matters. People buy on their *perceptions*, not what is or isn't. If you make a bit Xd, it may sound 5% better at twice the price, but two things happen. One is that people will pay double because they perceive it to be twice as good because it is twice the price. And those people will tell their friends about the "small Xds". OR, people will say "man, that's awesome, but I can get 90-95% for only $6K and bigger really isn't that much better!"

Either way, sales of regular Xd go up!

John, serious question, but if the T6 and Xd don't (or didn't) really sell all that much at $4K and $6K respectively, despite being 2 of the lowest priced models to warrant a Stereophile Class A rating, what chance do you really think a $12-15K NHT speaker would have of selling much?


I also think some of the disadvantage of the T5 and T6 system to the average person would be having to adjust the x1 having to use a lot more of your rack space for outside amps and crossovers. I know this is the advantage for people like us who spend time reading and researching the best way to setup out speakers. I remember the first time I read the user manual for the T speakers I had a lot of thought and questions. So even though they are great you just can't bring them home and plug them in to your amp and have music. Where as the Revel F 52 plug them in move them around a little and BAM you think you are in heaven. NHT do a lot of things right, but I to think they could find something in the next price range to be even better. I am thinking more like paradigm here refs and sigs. And with the price of the controller and amps for a 7.1 system you are almost double what a four and 3's would cost at list. So with the controller and power amps added you would have and entry speaker system that moves into a reference speaker system. That could help justfiy the cost of the controller and amps.
Allen

Allen, I think I may have mentioned this already, but true story, I got my T5s new for like $850!

This guy had bought them, but he was too intimidated by the X1/A1 to even try setting them up. He couldn't return them, and the only thing he could trade them up for was T6s, which obviously wouldn't have changed anything for his dilemma that he was in.

He told me that if I bought him a new pair of ST4s, that he would trade even, so I did. :D

Think about it, you can barely find a used pair of M5s on P5s for that price! :eek:

So that all just further reinforces exactly what you just said.

As for the Revel Performa F52s, as I've already pointed out, the are the same price as Xds, but since you get the power amps and cables with the Xds, figure that for the cost of F52s plus an amp suitable for them, you can get a dual sub Xd (substitute the cost of the amp for the extra sub).

Even the local dealer here, who, as I mentioned before, pushes Revel over NHT every chance he gets, without anyone even asking him (if someone comes in and asks about NHT, he will immediately try steering them to Revel instead), but even he admitted (reluctantly as it was) that Xds were better than F52s for the same $$$ (single sub Xd at that).

The Xds are really very simple to set up, and the manual is extremely well written and easy to follow. They are so easy that a caveman can even do it! :)

Ah, let me teach you about perception, grasshopper!

small = small sound
small = no bass
small = doesn't play loud
affordable = not good enough

None of the actual reality matters. People buy on their *perceptions*, not what is or isn't. If you make a bit Xd, it may sound 5% better at twice the price, but two things happen. One is that people will pay double because they perceive it to be twice as good because it is twice the price. And those people will tell their friends about the "small Xds". OR, people will say "man, that's awesome, but I can get 90-95% for only $6K and bigger really isn't that much better!"

Either way, sales of regular Xd go up!

Maybe, I don't know, but I just don't think a pair of NHTs at least 12 large would really sell that much if $4K and $6K models that are highly respected don't.

On the contrary, I think cheaper, more affordable speakers with Xd technology would sell like hot cakes, I mean literally as fast as NHT could turn them out.

I would have bet this would have been your answer. That is why I said I am going to go back a revist the m5 to the m6 for my lcr. I just want to get some better power on them like the power5 instead of my old Denon.
Allen

What Denon do you have?

I have read the two existing reviews on the NHT separates (Stereophile and Home Theater magazines) and they are quite favorable indeed. As mentioned in previous posts, I am doing a 5 channel HT system that will also be used for stereo music listening. Compared to most mid to higher-priced better quality AV receivers, will the NHT Power5 (200 watts continuous x 5) provide substantially improved bass response from the Classic 4's? Or will I still need to bi-amp the fours with the NHT A1 (x 2?) & X2? I am really liking the idea of having no sub at all in my listening/viewing room. Just about ready to lay down some cash on the Classic 4's/3C/AW4's combo (and possibly the Controller/Power5 duo) so any comments would be great. ;)

Maybe, I don't know, but I just don't think a pair of NHTs at least 12 large would really sell that much if $4K and $6K models that are highly respected don't.

On the contrary, I think cheaper, more affordable speakers with Xd technology would sell like hot cakes, I mean literally as fast as NHT could turn them out.

I think lots of people are biased against the Xds for exactly the same reasons John listed, particularly size and price (well, and the digital thing). They're too expensive to sell to the lifestyle buyers that likes attractive sub/sats, and they're too small and cheap to sell to the audiophiles (who seem to prefer towers).

I'd give 'em a good home though. And will, in a couple years, unless something better comes along :-)

As for the Revel Performa F52s, as I've already pointed out, the are the same price as Xds, but since you get the power amps and cables with the Xds, figure that for the cost of F52s plus an amp suitable for them, you can get a dual sub Xd (substitute the cost of the amp for the extra sub).

Even the local dealer here, who, as I mentioned before, pushes Revel over NHT every chance he gets, without anyone even asking him (if someone comes in and asks about NHT, he will immediately try steering them to Revel instead), but even he admitted (reluctantly as it was) that Xds were better than F52s for the same $$$ (single sub Xd at that).

The Xds are really very simple to set up, and the manual is extremely well written and easy to follow. They are so easy that a caveman can even do it! :)

Sorry Mark I was just useing the F52 as a plug and play speaker example. It could have been any speaker like that.
Allen

What Denon do you have?

I have an old 5700, but at this time I can only do 5.1 and it works great never a minutes problem.
Allen

Maybe, I don't know, but I just don't think a pair of NHTs at least 12 large would really sell that much if $4K and $6K models that are highly respected don't.

Well, you have to understand that I get all the objections so I have a good feel for what stops people from buying them and most of it is fear or perception. The big thing is that the *reviewers* don't take them as seriously as they should because they're not expensive enough. This plants seeds of doubt in peoples' minds. Stereophile, HT and others, while giving it a positive review, didn't give them the review they deserved purely on *sound*. IOW, they thought they sounded good, but couldn't grasp the fact that they do things that no other speaker has done as well before. Or certainly *few* other speakers. And certainly offers a combination of qualities that simply doesn't exist at any price. Every speaker I've ever heard gives up two or three major areas to Xd. And until Xd is expensive enough to enter the ring (it's like high stakes poker), it won't get the reviews it deserves (except from $ensible Sound). A larger, more expensive Xd might make that happen.

On the contrary, I think cheaper, more affordable speakers with Xd technology would sell like hot cakes, I mean literally as fast as NHT could turn them out.

That is true!

They're too expensive to sell to the lifestyle buyers that likes attractive sub/sats, and they're too small and cheap to sell to the audiophiles (who seem to prefer towers).

Well, that summed it up better and faster! :)

Besides, here's another thing. Porsche sells about as many $100K Cayennes as VW sells $50K Touaregs. This despite that fact that most auto magazines say it's senseless to spend the extra money when the Touareg is as good, even better with the TDI engine. But Porsches are perceived to be "better" and while they should only sell 10% as much for double the cost, they're selling about the same. So even when reviewers make sense, consumers don't.

Besides, my concept for a SuperXd optionally includes basically two Power5s (but replacing two channels with a single 500W module). Add in a nice Controller looking version of the DEQX with volume control and home theater bypass and a full cadre of inputs. Then make a nice Meridian DSP8000 looking tower (or heck, a small tower sub/sat) with dual 12" Evo woofers firing sideways, dual front firing 6", front and rear firing 5" Excel drivers and front/rear firing beryllium tweeters (the rears being completely adjustable monopole/bipole/dipole). A ribbon would be a nice touch, but I'm pretty sure Jack wouldn't be happy with it objectively.

I think even the most snobby audiophiles would have no choice but to respond to that in droves. And they can do it too, because a Controller version of DEQX wouldn't cost more than $3K, two "Power4"s would be $4K, the woofer section would cost about $1500, the mid/treble would cost about $5500, so you'd be at between $12K and $15K. That's right where Thiel, B&W, Revel, Vandersteen and everyone else is *without* amplification, so it's a good place to be. Just as expensive but twice the objective value and notably better performance.

Then, everyone would be talking about this super flagship and it would get more people buzzing about the current Xd system because it's such a great value. I sold a set of Xd yesterday to a customer who was thinking of buying a Krell amp to "wake up" his B&W 801s, so now I have a pair of big speakers in my lobby :) He is a percussionist and string bass player and he couldn't get over the realism with which it portrayed everything including his favorite instruments.

I know Jack well enough to know he's got his own little "science project" going in the back with some sort of enhanced Xd, certainly he does in the M80Xd which is supposed to finally start shipping sometime soon. That thing is like weaponized Xd.

ompared to most mid to higher-priced better quality AV receivers, will the NHT Power5 (200 watts continuous x 5) provide substantially improved bass response from the Classic 4's?

Depends on what you mean by improved. Most receivers do struggle with bass and the digital amps seems to have good, clean, precise sound, not sure what aspect of them is causing that. The Controller is the key one if you want really improved bass because it does seem to clean up the bass quite a bit and integrate it really well. It's a really great long term investment too. Receivers come and go with bad resale value, but this system is a keeper.

Besides, here's another thing. Porsche sells about as many $100K Cayennes as VW sells $50K Touaregs. This despite that fact that most auto magazines say it's senseless to spend the extra money when the Touareg is as good, even better with the TDI engine. But Porsches are perceived to be "better" and while they should only sell 10% as much for double the cost, they're selling about the same. So even when reviewers make sense, consumers don't.

Absent from your example John, is the one quality that the Volkswagen name simply does not have: status. If dependability were more important than status as a purchasing criteria, there would be far fewer M-Bs or BMWs sold. Witness also the colossal failure VW enjoyed with the Phaeton. While the car is lux in every sense of the word, most peoples just couldn't get past the VW emblems that adorn the car; most especially for a Volkswagen that can push north of 100k in cost.

Side note: VW has announced it is going to reintroduce the Phaeton to the US market with V6 TDI model. It will be interesting to see if a torquey diesel will provide sufficient zip for the 5,400 lb. Phaeton.

If you are going to spend Audi money (and Audi is another VW) for a luxury sedan, most want the status associated with dropping that much on a car. While status is no doubt partly (some would say largely) responsible for the Cayenne's success, it should be noted that despite the fact that the same plant in Bratislava does indeed produce bodies for both the Cayenne and Toureg, at least 35% of the parts are unique to the Porsche; which is to that say a Cayenne is more than a rebadged VW. BTW, the Cayenne starts at $43,015; which makes it possible to spends more on a Toureg than a Cayenne. The Toureg TDI you mentioned has a base price of $59,820. Load that Toureg up an you can nudge past 70k for your Volkswagen.

These auto company comparisons are not too unlike the brand identity perceptions that are very much a part of the marketing efforts in the audio business. Just like people perceive Volkswagen as a sensible choice and a good value, many see NHT as having a high quality-to-price ratio (QPR). If you have built your core business around being a QPR leader, it becomes a challenge to change public perceptions of a brand identity that may have been built up over the years. I do believe it can be done, but it is a tough and potentially expensive road to hoe.

The auto makers use "halo" cars to try to better position themselves, even if that model is never going to be a big money maker; and often it is a product that they are effectively subsidizing. NHT has already started doing that with its new line of Vinci Labs produced electronics (Controller, Power5 and Power2). Likewise, NAD is trying to reposition themselves wth the Master Series line. Many of us can recall that Infinity used its Reference Standard speakers to sell a lot of considerably cheaper speakers. NHT could do the very same thing, and it might be a very good way to showcase their cutting edge technology. Who knows John, maybe they are already working on their "halo" speaker system, but they simply didn't bother checking with you first. ;)

Depends on what you mean by improved. Most receivers do struggle with bass and the digital amps seems to have good, clean, precise sound, not sure what aspect of them is causing that. The Controller is the key one if you want really improved bass because it does seem to clean up the bass quite a bit and integrate it really well. It's a really great long term investment too. Receivers come and go with bad resale value, but this system is a keeper.

I've put off getting Fours (the Threes seem to get better sounding every day) and am really thinking of getting the Controller. I've been waiting for an HDMI pre/pro, but the whole NHT synergy thing sounds great and upcoming HDMI 1.3 puts to rest worries of obsolescence. Just wondering, if you know:

1. How will the whole HDMI 1.3 upgrade work and how much $$$? Would I have to ship it to Benecia?
2. Can I put my Anthem PVA-7 amp on top of it or does it generate lots of heat?
3. Will the Controller accept my PS3's SACD 6-channel PCM signal via HDMI 1.3 or is SACD not supported?
4. I hear video processing is not the greatest. If my projector is 720p native and all my sources (PS3 & HTPC) can be set to output 720p, will there be any signal degradation or scaling via HDMI?

My 7.1 setup:
Anthem PVA-7 seven-channel amplifier (105w x 7 driven, 8ohms)
Fronts: NHT Classic Threes + 3C Center
Surrounds: Four NHT SB2s
Sub: SVS PB10-ISD
Projector: Optoma HD70 with 106" screen

Absent from your example John, is the one quality that the Volkswagen name simply does not have: status. If dependability were more important than status as a purchasing criteria, there would be far fewer M-Bs or BMWs sold. Witness also the colossal failure VW enjoyed with the Phaeton. While the car is lux in every sense of the word, most peoples just couldn't get past the VW emblems that adorn the car; most especially for a Volkswagen that can push north of 100k in cost.

Well, true, BUT people also know that Audi/Porsche are basically the same thing, so why buy the Phaeton when you can buy an A6 or A8 and impress your friends? I'd buy a Phaeton *if* that were the type of car I liked, but it isn't, so I wouldn't. IOW, Xd is NHT's "Audi", so it's already differentiated. I have a customer who said he wouldn't buy an NHT if they made the best speaker in the world because of the "low rent" name. Well, he caved ;)

BTW, the Cayenne starts at $43,015; which makes it possible to spends more on a Toureg than a Cayenne. The Toureg TDI you mentioned has a base price of $59,820. Load that Toureg up an you can nudge past 70k for your Volkswagen.

Yes, but as I recall, the average price spent on a Cayenne is just shy of $100K whereas it's more like $50K for the VW.

If you have built your core business around being a QPR leader, it becomes a challenge to change public perceptions of a brand identity that may have been built up over the years. I do believe it can be done, but it is a tough and potentially expensive road to hoe.

That's why I told them that it was important to sort of separate Xd from the regular line a bit. But, in any case, Xd is like a 4-door sports car, so no matter how it performs, people who buy Lambos or Ferraris won't respect it until it *looks* like a Lambo or Ferrari. Anybody here remember the VW Nardo? Awesome car. But they basically turned it into an Audi R8 or whatever so they could actually sell it.

Who knows John, maybe they are already working on their "halo" speaker system, but they simply didn't bother checking with you first. ;)

Could be, but they're *supposed* to!!!! Actually, they know where I stand on it. The problem is, they'll take a good idea and then omit or change something important because they didn't bother to ask how important it was. Such is life.....

1. How will the whole HDMI 1.3 upgrade work and how much $$$? Would I have to ship it to Benecia?

That is an $unknown, but it will almost certainly have to go back. We'd like to do it here in the field, but we'll see. NHT is a bit "controlling" about electronics repairs/upgrades.

2. Can I put my Anthem PVA-7 amp on top of it or does it generate lots of heat?

Probably can, but that should always be a last resort. The thing is deep and runs reasonably cool and is built well.

3. Will the Controller accept my PS3's SACD 6-channel PCM signal via HDMI 1.3 or is SACD not supported?

Not until the new board is released and then it should.

4. I hear video processing is not the greatest. If my projector is 720p native and all my sources (PS3 & HTPC) can be set to output 720p, will there be any signal degradation or scaling via HDMI?

There is no processing, except to convert analog to digital. There shouldn't be any degradation at all, it just passes the signal on intact.

Jack will correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's all correct.

If dependability were more important than status as a purchasing criteria, there would be far fewer M-Bs or BMWs sold.

Hi zaracsan,
I don't want to pay too much for anything, but the old expression "you pay for what you get" is true here. NHT puts their money in the speaker system not the cabinets, cable, drivers etc. They don't have American Walnut cabinets or silver wiring, etc. This is how they hold down cost.

I have owned 55 cars so far and my 3 Series BMW is the best one yet. For me the car is 100% reliable (I am aware of BMWs service reputation). I do not own any American cars currently because the Quality is not there and the service ethic is just as bad.

Sincerely,
Martin

Thanks for answering all my questions, Alimentall. I'm glad the controller passes the video through since I don't need all that fancy processing. I answered my own question about SACD and the Controller with a Google search and depressingly found this:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-632193.html

Jack Hidley12-14-06, 08:29 AM

Basically our implementation of HDMI v1.3 will have support for all of the audio formats in the v1.3 specification with the exception of SACD.

Any electronics A/V product you buy now is likely to be seriously compromised in a year or so. You can thank the movie and record studios for that."

Oh well, my SACD collection is only about 10 discs anyway.

The Controller doesn't do any HDMI video processing. So there is no danger of signal degradation. But remember, that HDMI transmits video digitally. This means at some point the video was sampled and/or resampled. HDMI has significantly less video performance than an analog video signal transmitted over component. In particular, the depth of colors it can show are not very good. HDMI V1.3 supports Deep Color which significantly increases the depth of colors it can transmit. Unless your devices use HDMI V1.3 on both ends, I would not use it to transmit video. You will get better quality by using component transmission.

We are not sure if you will need to return the Controller to NHT for the HDMI V1.3 upgrade or not. I am personally leaning in favor of doing that, since the Controller is not an inexpensive product. We want to make sure the conversions gets done correctly.

I'm only 90% sure that our HDMI V1.3 upgrade won't support SACD. There is just a lot of software development for a tiny installed base of software.

I think the Controller draws about 60W of power at idle. I don't think there would be much issue with putting a 7 channel power amplifier on top of it.

I have read the two existing reviews on the NHT separates (Stereophile and Home Theater magazines) and they are quite favorable indeed. As mentioned in previous posts, I am doing a 5 channel HT system that will also be used for stereo music listening. Compared to most mid to higher-priced better quality AV receivers, will the NHT Power5 (200 watts continuous x 5) provide substantially improved bass response from the Classic 4's? Or will I still need to bi-amp the fours with the NHT A1 (x 2?) & X2? I am really liking the idea of having no sub at all in my listening/viewing room. Just about ready to lay down some cash on the Classic 4's/3C/AW4's combo (and possibly the Controller/Power5 duo) so any comments would be great. ;)

The Power5 will be enough for them. Rather than repeat myself, I will quote myself about the HTM review:

The most noteworthy thing in that review to me was the Power5. Did you see those bench test specs? 291.6 watts into 8 Ohms with 2 channels driven at .1% distortion and 538.9 into 4 ohms at .1% distortion, again with 2 channels driven.

That thing is a freakin' beast! :eek:

It should be putting out somewhere around at least 410 watt per into 6 ohms at .1% distortion (2 channels driven), which 6 ohms is what a lot of NHT's speakers are rated.

Even with all 5 channels driven simultaneously, it should still be putting out at least 300 watts into the Four's 6 Ohm load at .1% distortion, and prolly more like 350 watts. :eek:

Which reminds me, I once saw somewhere, I think it was the Sensible Sound, where the Sherwood A-965 (which was also rebadged as the Boston Acoustics amp too, and I think maybe as an Outlaw as well) was the 7 channel power amp that could safely put out the most power from a single, standard AC outlet.

I know the Power5 and Power2 doesn't really count as a single 7 channel amp, but wonder if combined they would now take the title of most 7 channel power safely put out from a standard AC outlet? :D

Sorry Mark I was just useing the F52 as a plug and play speaker example. It could have been any speaker like that.
Allen

I know Allen, but I was pointing out that Xds are also basically plug & play, plus they are so much easier to move around for either macro or micro positioning in the room (not to even mention the advantage and flexibility of being able to move the sub(s) to a better spot for bass, whereas a tower is a lot more limited in that regard).

Like I said, Xds are are so easy, a caveman (or even Sc10000) can do it! :D

I have an old 5700, but at this time I can only do 5.1 and it works great never a minutes problem.
Allen

That receiver had plenty of power, especially for M5s.

John has even stated the the 48** and 58** series Denons with toroidal transformers are pretty good. :D

The Controller is the key one if you want really improved bass because it does seem to clean up the bass quite a bit and integrate it really well.

I can attest to this. It made a noticeable improvement in the bass to my ears with both ST4s and Fours.

With a Controller and Power5, I don't think an X2/A1(s) combo would really be necessary for Fours, unless you had to place them in a compromised, less than optimum location for whatever reason.

Well, that summed it up better and faster! :)

Well I may be wrong, and I wish that I would be ultimately be proven to be wrong, but I just don't think a $12K minimum NHT would sell even half as many units as the $6K Xd has.

That receiver had plenty of power, especially for M5s.

John has even stated the the 48** and 58** series Denons with toroidal transformers are pretty good. :D


It does have plenty of power. I guess I was talking quality verses quantity. The best my system sound was when I had an Aragon 4004 amp on it. It is only a 125 watts per channel but it was clean and smooth. I used it on my 2.9s then my m5s. I sold it and got the sherbourn amp it is a good amp but not as nice sounding as the aragon though.
Allen

I know Jack well enough to know he's got his own little "science project" going in the back with some sort of enhanced Xd, certainly he does in the M80Xd which is supposed to finally start shipping sometime soon. That thing is like weaponized Xd.

I can't wait for Mark to get his pair to let us know how they sound and work with the controller. In fact if Jack needs a Beta tester Mark would get my vote. With all of the NHT speakers he has owned in the past and present he would be a great reference for us all.

Any idear how much the M80Xd will cost.
Allen

It does have plenty of power. I guess I was talking quality verses quantity. The best my system sound was when I had an Aragon 4004 amp on it. It is only a 125 watts per channel but it was clean and smooth. I used it on my 2.9s then my m5s. I sold it and got the sherbourn amp it is a good amp but not as nice sounding as the aragon though.
Allen

Do you have that Sherbourne amp, I can't remember the model #, but it actually had dual power cords to hook it up two different outlets?

If so, that thing is a monster too! I always wanted one.

... and often it is a product that they are effectively subsidizing. NHT has already started doing that with its new line of Vinci Labs produced electronics (Controller, Power5 and Power2).

You keep saying how they are "subsidizing" the Controller/Power5/2, I very seriously doubt they are actually taking a loss on each unit.

I've put off getting Fours (the Threes seem to get better sounding every day) and am really thinking of getting the Controller. I've been waiting for an HDMI pre/pro, but the whole NHT synergy thing sounds great and upcoming HDMI 1.3 puts to rest worries of obsolescence. Just wondering, if you know:

1. How will the whole HDMI 1.3 upgrade work and how much $$$? Would I have to ship it to Benecia?
2. Can I put my Anthem PVA-7 amp on top of it or does it generate lots of heat?
3. Will the Controller accept my PS3's SACD 6-channel PCM signal via HDMI 1.3 or is SACD not supported?
4. I hear video processing is not the greatest. If my projector is 720p native and all my sources (PS3 & HTPC) can be set to output 720p, will there be any signal degradation or scaling via HDMI?

My 7.1 setup:
Anthem PVA-7 seven-channel amplifier (105w x 7 driven, 8ohms)
Fronts: NHT Classic Threes + 3C Center
Surrounds: Four NHT SB2s
Sub: SVS PB10-ISD
Projector: Optoma HD70 with 106" screen

Good move IMO. The fours may have been a little redundant with the PB10 ISD anyways.

Now you can eventually replace the SVS with dual W1s/A1s with a 20 Hz modded X1. :D

Oh well, my SACD collection is only about 10 discs anyway.

I think SACD sounds better in plain old 2 channel anyway, but I have even less discs than you though. I don't even have 10 SACDs and DSVD Audios put together. :o

I can't wait for Mark to get his pair to let us know how they sound and work with the controller. In fact if Jack needs a Beta tester Mark would get my vote. With all of the NHT speakers he has owned in the past and present he would be a great reference for us all.

Any idear how much the M80Xd will cost.
Allen

Thanks Allen. :o

I would be very happy to do any beta testing Jack wanted me to, and he knows that. ;)

I'm really looking forward to new Evos and/or Xds. I mean, models that really take it to the next level (which would be a very tall order indeed, but I'm sure they will anyway).

As good as the 3.3 was (and still is) for it's day in it's time, I think the fact is, it has long been eclipsed by newer NHT models, starting with the VT3.

I think NHT has advanced light years since the new millennium started. Take a llok at just the last 2 years or so, Xds, Classics, the new electronics ...

Do you have that Sherbourne amp, I can't remember the model #, but it actually had dual power cords to hook it up two different outlets?

If so, that thing is a monster too! I always wanted one.

Mine didn't have but 1 power cord. I don't recall the model number. It had power but didn't have the smooth sound of the aragon 4004. After hearing the 4004 on my 2.9 I always wanted to hear how Ricks(Was a big NHTer use to be here all the time.) 3.3 sounded with the Aragon palladium mono blocks on his 3.3's.
Allen

You keep saying how they are "subsidizing" the Controller/Power5/2, I very seriously doubt they are actually taking a loss on each unit.

I never said they were "taking a loss on each unit". A subsidy can take many forms. For example: The Government gives a cash subsidy to farmers who grow certain agricultural products, in order that they are able to offer American consumers lower prices for these commodities than market forces would otherwise dictate.

In the case of the new NHT electronics, the subsidy comes in the form of Vinci labs reducing their margins so that NHT can build momentum for the new product line by being more price competitive than they would otherwise be, were Vinci to insist on maintaining the same sort of margins that other NHT products enjoy. NHT alluded to this fact in a press release (http://nhthifi.com/2006/press/whatsnew/Electronics.pdf) found on their web site:

"Do we think the system is worth more? Of course, and we are willing to make a little less on the deal just to show you where NHT is heading in the coming years."

Thanks for answering my questions, Jack! The Controller looks like a no compromise solution for me. I look forward to the Controller bringing my system together and getting most out of my NHTs.

Well I may be wrong, and I wish that I would be ultimately be proven to be wrong, but I just don't think a $12K minimum NHT would sell even half as many units as the $6K Xd has.

I bet it would sell 2-3 times as much which wouldn't be that hard, really. I could sell about 20 of them myself, I do believe, probably more.

The thing is, I have actually a hundred or more people that have at least $20K worth of gear and can't get a big buzz without doubling or tripling that. We could sell their gear for $10K and give them a huge buzz for a few $K. Unfortunately, most dealers won't do trade ins and we would only sell 1/3rd to half the NHT we do if we didn't do trade ins. You have to make it easy for the customer

In the case of the new NHT electronics, the subsidy comes in the form of Vinci labs reducing their margins so that NHT can build momentum for the new product line by being more price competitive than they would otherwise be, were Vinci to insist on maintaining the same sort of margins that other NHT products enjoy. "

Are you complaining?

I bet it would sell 2-3 times as much which wouldn't be that hard, really. I could sell about 20 of them myself, I do believe, probably more.

The thing is, I have actually a hundred or more people that have at least $20K worth of gear and can't get a big buzz without doubling or tripling that. We could sell their gear for $10K and give them a huge buzz for a few $K. Unfortunately, most dealers won't do trade ins and we would only sell 1/3rd to half the NHT we do if we didn't do trade ins. You have to make it easy for the customer

John, I think your willingness to do trade-ins really sets you apart. I can't imagine why dealers don't do it as a matter of course, unless they're just lazy. Whicn is entirely possible.

I mean, you sell the trade-ins for more than the value of the trade-in credit. You probably don't discount the new product (or at least as much) with the trade-ins. Seems like trade-ins should make you more money per sale, not less. Not to mention the increase in sales it should bring.

I'd hate to think how much gear I'd go through if I had a good dealer who took it. I love my family, but even they are running out of room.

Good move IMO. The fours may have been a little redundant with the PB10 ISD anyways.

Now you can eventually replace the SVS with dual W1s/A1s with a 20 Hz modded X1. :D

After some late night listening with just the Classic Threes full range and without the SVS, I was surprised at how solid everything sounded, and also at the bass produced by the Threes. This confirms my suspicions that the 3Cs and the SVS are not working together as well as they could, but I tried every spot possible during the first month, finally settling on the location closest to the mains where the least cancellation occurred. I'm very tempted to go sub-less and pull the trigger on Classic Fours, but maybe the controller can get the Threes and the SVS to play nice together.

As far as the SACDs go, I just counted and I actually only have 7. Bring on the new 7.1 high res audio formats!

A subsidy can take many forms. For example: The Government gives a cash subsidy to farmers who grow certain agricultural products, in order that they are able to offer American consumers lower prices for these commodities than market forces would otherwise dictate.

Like tobacco? ;)

John, I think your willingness to do trade-ins really sets you apart. I can't imagine why dealers don't do it as a matter of course, unless they're just lazy. Whicn is entirely possible.

I mean, you sell the trade-ins for more than the value of the trade-in credit. You probably don't discount the new product (or at least as much) with the trade-ins. Seems like trade-ins should make you more money per sale, not less. Not to mention the increase in sales it should bring.

Bingo! We have a winner! :cool:

Mr. TV,

What equipment are you using to try to integrate the SVS sub and the Threes? Is there an external crossover or are you using a surround processor with bass management?

I can't wait for Mark to get his pair to let us know how they sound and work with the controller. In fact if Jack needs a Beta tester Mark would get my vote. With all of the NHT speakers he has owned in the past and present he would be a great reference for us all.

Any idear how much the M80Xd will cost.
Allen

Hmm, based upon some what I found that Jack said wayyyyy back at the top of page 2 of this thread:

The 2" domes in the M-80Xd are the same driver with a different voice coil impedance as used in the Classic series. I wouldn't use an M-80Xd for a center channel with anything else but itself for Lefts and Rights. The M-80Xd gets processed by an XdA which has about 8ms of latency in it. You're going to have a very hard time getting your other channels time delay to match. The dispersion of the M-80Xd will be considerably narrower than any of our consumer speakers. This will make it very hard to match the tonality of it to anything else. The 3C has about the same output as an AC-2. I don't see why anyone would need any more than this unless their room is just huge. Of course if you really want a headbanger/hi-fi HT system, you can buy 5 M-80Xds and a couple of S-80 subs to go with them. Be prepared to bring a pretty fat wallet though:) Ten 8" magnesium cone woofers, ten 2" dome midranges, four 12" long throw woofers, 4kW total amplifier power, etc, etc.

and the product pages from the site:

http://nhthifi.com/2006/products/pro/m80.html

and the matching sub:

http://nhthifi.com/2006/products/pro/s80.html

perhaps the product already exists that is almost a hybrid between Xds, Classics, and Evos.

Jack or John, how much are these monitors and subs, and is the XdA for them the same as those which come with regular consumer Xds?

Bingo! We have a winner! :cool:

Yes, but it could play havoc on cash flow.

Mr. TV,

What equipment are you using to try to integrate the SVS sub and the Threes? Is there an external crossover or are you using a surround processor with bass management?

FWIW, the SVS PB10 ISD does not have it's own built in crossovers, so if he's not using an AVR or pre-pro with bass management, then there is his problem right there.

Yes, but it could play havoc on cash flow.

Restraint my friend, restraint. :D

Hell, I wish I could trade in my 3.3s, 2.9s, and three different AC2s towards getting two more dual sub Xd sets so I could do a 6.6 Xd surround set up, or, maybe even better yet, the M-80Xd set up Jack described in the post of his I quoted from page 2! :eek:

Yes, but it could play havoc on cash flow.

Cash flow? I've heard of it.......

Jack or John, how much are these monitors and subs, and is the XdA for them the same as those which come with regular consumer Xds?

Same XdA, different programming as I understand it. Last I heaerd, they were in the neighborhood of $7K or so per pair and somewhere around $12K-$14K with digital subs.

I need some of these, actually, for a customer.

Same XdA, different programming as I understand it. Last I heaerd, they were in the neighborhood of $7K or so per pair and somewhere around $12K-$14K with digital subs.

I need some of these, actually, for a customer.

Sure, John, for a customer. Uh-huh.

Same XdA, different programming as I understand it. Last I heaerd, they were in the neighborhood of $7K or so per pair and somewhere around $12K-$14K with digital subs.

I need some of these, actually, for a customer.

Well there you go John, there is your "Super NHTs" you've been wanting! ;) :D

Can the monitors go either horizontally or vertically like a M5/M6?

Do they have a boundary control adjustment like the M5/M6?

Are there stands for them like the P5/P6?

Do the subs also need their own XdA too?

Well there you go John, there is your "Super NHTs" you've been wanting! ;) :D

Yes, in ugly studio monitor form!

Can the monitors go either horizontally or vertically like a M5/M6?

Should be fine that way.

Do they have a boundary control adjustment like the M5/M6?

No, they have boundary control like Xd!

Are there stands for them like the P5/P6?

No

Do the subs also need their own XdA too?

I believe so.

Well there you go John, there is your "Super NHTs" you've been wanting! ;) :D
This is what I tought too


Can the monitors go either horizontally or vertically like a M5/M6?

I am sure jack could make a M-80xdC

Allen

Yes, in ugly studio monitor form!

I don't think they look all that bad, maybe that's just me though. :o

No, they have boundary control like Xd!

I don't suppose they have room correction do they?


And finally, is there any reason why NHT couldn't do a Deq update for the Controller on them?

FWIW, the SVS PB10 ISD does not have it's own built in crossovers, so if he's not using an AVR or pre-pro with bass management, then there is his problem right there.

Correct, the PB10-ISD has no crossover. Jack, I'm actually using my HTPC as my preamp right now after reading another AVS thread about using the Creative X-Fi Elite Pro (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=591103) as a pre/pro. Here is what the THX bass management console looks like and it has the same options as most receivers:
http://home.comcast.net/~rm19/xfi_elitepro_bassmgt.gif

FWIW, I had these same sub/sat issues with my old 6.1 Kenwood receiver so it's either the room (20' x 12' x 10'-14', sloping ceiling, hardwood floor) or I suck, which is very possible. I'm still experimenting and put the 3C center channel on top of the SVS which is dead center under the projector screen and upped the crossover point to 125Hz and this seems to be working well. It's actually only under demanding 2-channel music listening that I get nit-picky and note that the sub/sat integration could be better. With movies and gaming I don't have any problems.

The X-Fi Elite Pro sound card uses the high end Cirrus Logic CS4398 DAC and playing DVD-Audio through Creative software player absolutely destroyed my Pioneer DVD-Audio/SACD combo player and playing Battlefield is an incredible 8-channel experience. There is little room for expansion, however, hence the need for a true preamp processor like the Controller.

I don't think they look all that bad, maybe that's just me though. :o

They seem to have a lot in common, visually, with the Evolution series...

Mr. TV,

Set the ThreeC to small, set the subwoofer xover to 80Hz or so. Make sure that you are using the LFE input on the sub. Put the ThreeC and the sub the sane distance from the listening position.

Play pink noise over the system into the C input only. Adjust the subwoofer level to the same loudness as the ThreeC. Adjust the speaker distance on the center channel to the correct value for the actual distance to the listener. The system will probably sound like two speakers. This is because the acoustic output from the ThreeC and the sub are cancelling at the xover frequency. To fix this, you need to adjust the speaker distance for the subwoofer. The correct value for this setting will not be possible to calculate without a lot of information that you don't have. The subwoofer distance will almost definitely need to be set to a farther distance than the ThreeC distance is. At 80Hz, the wavelength is 14.25 feet.

Start by adjusting the subwoofer distance to be the same as the center distance. Listen to how cohesive it sounds with pink noise. Start increasing the subwoofer distance in 1-2 foot increments. When the sub and ThreeC sound the most like two different speakers, stop. Now subtract 7' from the distance you have entered for the subwoofer. If this would make the resulting subwoofer distance negative, then add 7' instead. This should get the Sub and ThreeC perfectly in phase at the crossover frequency. After you do this, you will probably have to readjust the sub level.

The M-80 will probably be around $5k per channel. Each M-80 will be driven by one XdA.

All XdAs are the exact same hardware. Period. The only difference is the filter set that is loaded into it.

The S-80 subwoofer does not need an XdA for it. It uses the XdA that is driving the satellites to get its signal. The S-80 must be driven by an XdA. The S-80 has its own 500W internal amplifier. Retail will probably be $2k.

The M-80 can only be used horizontally. It is designed to be used on the meter bridge of a mixing console.

No stands are available for the M-80.

We won't do a speaker setting in the Controller for the M-80, because the M-80 is a pro product. It is not a consumer product. Everything in its design is optimized for pro use. It is not designed in any way for consumer use.

Sorry, but this is like someone going to Ferrari and asking them to help them certify the Ferrari engine in their F1 car, so they can get it registered in the US. Go out and buy an F360 or an Enzo!!!

It is not designed in any way for consumer use.

Sorry, but this is like someone going to Ferrari and asking them to help them certify the Ferrari engine in their F1 car, so they can get it registered in the US. Go out and buy an F360 or an Enzo!!!

OK, now we really want it. :)

Sorry, but this is like someone going to Ferrari and asking them to help them certify the Ferrari engine in their F1 car, so they can get it registered in the US. Go out and buy an F360 or an Enzo!!!

Sweet, sounds just like what I'm looking for! :D

Thanks for all the instruction, Jack! I have a level meter from Radio Shack and a calibration DVD with test tones and now I know what to do with them. Hopefully when I get the Controller, I can just plug these same values in.

The M-80 will probably be around $5k per channel. Each M-80 will be driven by one XdA.
The S-80 subwoofer does not need an XdA for it. It uses the XdA that is driving the satellites to get its signal. The S-80 must be driven by an XdA. The S-80 has its own 500W internal amplifier. Retail will probably be $2k.

Translation - it will still require dual XdAs and will still be around $14K :eek:

I just purchased a pair of classic 4’s to go with my Pioneer Elite 84 TSXI. I would like to know if any one knows where I can get a classic three center for a good price. Also would I be ok using just 1 A-1 amp or should I use 2?

I just purchased a pair of classic 4’s to go with my Pioneer Elite 84 TSXI. I would like to know if any one knows where I can get a classic three center for a good price. Also would I be ok using just 1 A-1 amp or should I use 2?

i lucked out and got one on ebay for $330 shipped (sealed new in box).
of course there is always a risk to go for such a deal.
and the warranty is voided. however, at that price and with my destroyed budget it made the most sense.... only way i really could have done it.

Like tobacco? ;)

Among other things; but at 0.2% of the billions of dollars our Government doles out each year for agricultural subsidies, Tobacco is receiving a fairly small portion compared to what Feed Grains, Wheat, Rice and Cotton receive. Their respective slices of the pie are 35.4%, 14.6%, 14.1% and 17.7%. Tobacco is actually more heavily taxed than it subsidized.

[/thread drift]

Are you complaining?

Not hardly John, as I have been a direct beneficiary of the Vinci Labs 'subsidy'. You do seem to be missing my only real point here; that is, the new NHT electronics are an even greater value than their current retail pricing suggests. Yes, it is still expensive gear for many reading these pages; but if the new electronics pricing was based more on the product's actual build quality and features, rather than favoring pricing that gives traction to their product rollout, they would likely cost considerably more than they do.

I just purchased a pair of classic 4’s to go with my Pioneer Elite 84 TSXI. I would like to know if any one knows where I can get a classic three center for a good price. Also would I be ok using just 1 A-1 amp or should I use 2?


any one?

re: Classic 4 setup:

So i took home a pair of 4s today for some fun. Have them 8-9' apart, 3ft from the walls, toe'd in so i can just see the inner wall of the cabinet (like my old Wilsons). Very nice imaging an timbre. seem a little lean and strident just a tad (which didn't seem the case at the dealer on a big Denon 58xx receiver.

Do these calm down a bit over 50 hours or so (most if not all speakers i've owned do), and is there any comments on my setup? i'm probably sitting back 10-11 ft.

Thanks,

KeithR

What is your room like?

Keith,

If you have the Fours 3' from the back walls, they are going to sound very lean. I would keep them within 2' maximum. 10-18" is an optimum location.

Goodbye NHT!

I sold my NHT VT-2 after owning them for 10 years, and have spent the last 4 months looking for a replacement. Many times I have wanted to go buy the Classic 4, dealer closed, dealer out of stock, and just to dam busy.

Well I spent a few good months looking, and something always took me back to the Classic 4, well I found something that didn't. Dynaudio S5.4 this speaker is my dream. It is also 4 time the price of the Classic 4, which shows you what a great speaker NHT makes.

NHT, thanks for making a good product.

Goodbye NHT!

Ditto. I'm also leaving the NHT fold as I have decided that I'm going to sell off all of my NHTs and am going with B&Ws to replace them.

Take care everyone.

Ditto. I'm also leaving the NHT fold as I have decided that I'm going to sell off all of my NHTs and am going with B&Ws to replace them.

Take care everyone.

April Fools' Day is still a couple hours away for most of us :eek:

I would like to know if any one knows where I can get a classic three center for a good price.

I think any NHT dealer, like John, offers the 3C at a great price ... that's pretty much set by NHT. :D

That said, if you want to risk warranty/possible issues, you can always find 3Cs on A'gon and Ebay.


Also would I be ok using just 1 A-1 amp or should I use 2?

(1) A1 is enough to power the subs of the 4s, but (2) gives you stereo bass.

Ditto. I'm also leaving the NHT fold as I have decided that I'm going to sell off all of my NHTs and am going with B&Ws to replace them.

Take care everyone.
:) :)

Peter

Keith,

If you have the Fours 3' from the back walls, they are going to sound very lean. I would keep them within 2' maximum. 10-18" is an optimum location.Jack,
What is the ideal distance from back wall for the 3's. Why doesn't NHT make stands for them (or a tall cabinet), and what would you say is the optimum height for front speakers--I'm thinking 26" or 28" stands (which I still haven't bought...)?

Thanks in advance.

Peter

Ditto. I'm also leaving the NHT fold as I have decided that I'm going to sell off all of my NHTs and am going with B&Ws to replace them.

Take care everyone.

Well I know someone who will buy a pair of VR3's from you :D

James

Well I spent a few good months looking, and something always took me back to the Classic 4, well I found something that didn't. Dynaudio S5.4 this speaker is my dream. It is also 4 time the price of the Classic 4, which shows you what a great speaker NHT makes.

Avoid hearing Xd or it will be "Hello NHT!" again.

BTW, this illustrates the problems dealers have sometimes nailing someone down. I have people say "$2000 is my *absolute* limit" over and over and I offer to set them up with what I think is the best $2K system they'll be able to find. Then they come back and say "well, I bought B&W 802s" and I'm saying "but those are 6 times your *absolute* limit" and they say "yeah, but I heard them and loved them" Now I make sure people hear Xd before deciding on Fours (which is why I guess I sell so many Xds ;) )

Hi Peter,

While we await Jack's response, I thought I'd share that I bought these stands

http://www.lovanusa.com/product_info.php?products_id=103

after my failed experiment with wall-mounting the Threes. 29 inches/piano black. The posts can be rotated as desired for cosmetic benefit. I bet I've got them too close to the wall(s) though. They seem sturdy enough that if my kids bump them lightly I'll still be OK.

The reason NHT doesn't make a stand for the Threes is probably becuase once you buy a sub and the stands, you could have had the Fours. I haven't done the math, but, for what I spent for 4xThree, 2xLovan, 4xOmniMount20 (using one, three failed), 1xU1--I probably could come close to 4xFour. Once I add another U1 I'll be over.... :)

Mark

Jack,
What is the ideal distance from back wall for the 3's. Why doesn't NHT make stands for them (or a tall cabinet), and what would you say is the optimum height for front speakers--I'm thinking 26" or 28" stands (which I still haven't bought...)?

Thanks in advance.

Peter

BTW, this illustrates the problems dealers have sometimes nailing someone down. I have people say "$2000 is my *absolute* limit" over and over and I offer to set them up with what I think is the best $2K system they'll be able to find. Then they come back and say "well, I bought B&W 802s" and I'm saying "but those are 6 times your *absolute* limit" and they say "yeah, but I heard them and loved them" Now I make sure people hear Xd before deciding on Fours (which is why I guess I sell so many Xds ;) )

Apparently the competition doesn't have any issues with just nailing them. (Humor B&W fans)

We sell these - http://www.gcaudio.com/cgi-bin/store/showProduct.cgi?id=433 - in a *specially ordered* piano black and specially cut top plates for Twos or Threes and one for Absolute Zeros. Sandfillable and very nice.

Now I make sure people hear Xd before deciding on Fours (which is why I guess I sell so many Xds ;) )

Hi Alimentall and NHT all owners,
Is there a better thread to talk about NHT loudspeakers?

What musical pieces do you folks use to demo your NHTs (favs)? Are we talking CDs, LPs, SACDs or what?

Jack Hidley,
What are favorites for the folks at NHT?

Sincerely,
Martin

We sell these - http://www.gcaudio.com/cgi-bin/store/showProduct.cgi?id=433 - in a *specially ordered* piano black and specially cut top plates for Twos or Threes and one for Absolute Zeros. Sandfillable and very nice.John,
IIRC, these are rather short. Do you also have them in 28"?

John and MASidoc:
Are those prices per or pair (I assume "each")?

Peter

curious if most people listen to classic three with grilles on or off.
there is a noticeably difference in sound. (also see on sterophile the affect
was certainly there too). in some ways it looks like having them on might
actually smooth out the frequency plot (which i guess was measured with them off?) by somewhat counteracting peaks and dips in the main measurement, but that depends upon how things were measured in both cases.

tentatively it seems there are both postive and negative aspects in either case (on or off), trying to figure out which is the best compromise. haven't tested enough yet to make up my mind.

I listen with grills on.
5 classic 3s
1 3 center
3 subs.
I finally mounted the last of the 3s so I am listening to a matched 6.1 system. I just recalibrated the 3 listening positions with Pioneer Elite mcaac. All are set to small and crossed over at 80hz.

Had mod done by NHT, thanks to Jack & Matt for great customer service. Tonygeno, drop in your results when your unit arrives so we can compare results.

First impression...not so hot; listened to several tracks with good bass...why did I do this? Proceeded with a full system calibration. Ok, now we're talking. Used to drop out at around 26.5hz, now it's down to 20.3. Right at 20hz, windows rattles; going to leave that, so whenever the window rattles, we got a good movie. Jack warned me about the -3db drop below 26hz, but I checked it several times with a digtal spl meter & it's more like 0 to -1db no more.

Btw, if you only use the evo sub for music don't bother; the mod only really kicks in with movies. What used to boom is more like BooM now, although nice & tight, clean too. Like it better than the ported subs I've heard. Best of both worlds & just plain cool.

Nice hot rod. :)

April Fools' Day is still a couple hours away for most of us :eek:

:D :p ;)

Also would I be ok using just 1 A-1 amp or should I use 2?

Since the crossover is pretty high, 125 Hz, I would recommend two, but like Mike said, you could start off with one A1 and an X2.

It is also 4 time the price of the Classic 4, ...

At that point, your in the price range of a dual sub XD. You should definitely check them out, and as John already stated, you'll be saying hello again. ;)

(1) A1 is enough to power the subs of the 4s, but (2) gives you stereo bass.

Speaking of which, are you gonna get a second A1 for your T5s Mike? If you listen to any music at all n them, I highly recommend it. :cool:

..., and what would you say is the optimum height for front speakers--I'm thinking 26" or 28" stands (which I still haven't bought...)?

Thanks in advance.

Peter

If I'm not mistaken, 27.25 (going from memory instead of actually double checking before I type this) would make them the exact same height as Fours.

BTW, this illustrates the problems dealers have sometimes nailing someone down. I have people say "$2000 is my *absolute* limit" over and over and I offer to set them up with what I think is the best $2K system they'll be able to find. Then they come back and say "well, I bought B&W 802s" and I'm saying "but those are 6 times your *absolute* limit" and they say "yeah, but I heard them and loved them" Now I make sure people hear Xd before deciding on Fours (which is why I guess I sell so many Xds ;) )

You should get a M80/S80 set on display, and see how many of those you can move at double the price of the Xds. ;) :)

Once I add another U1 I'll be over.... :)

Mark

But you'll also have MUCH better bass than the Fours, and if you were to add the cost of the X2 and 2 A1s to the Fours, then you're prolly talking about the same, or even more money than dual W1s.

What musical pieces do you folks use to demo your NHTs (favs)? Are we talking CDs, LPs, SACDs or what?

My favorite reference is the KISS Symphony CD or DVD.

http://www.amazon.com/Kiss-Symphony-DVD/dp/B0000ARSSI

This one disc literally has it all, I mean everything, hard rock/heavy metal, an "unplugged" acoustic set, a full on 70-some piece symphony orchestra, even a children's choir on one song, and not to even mention more explosions than a typical action movie. :p

3 subs.

What subs you have?

Btw, if you only use the evo sub for music don't bother; the mod only really kicks in with movies.

I'm planning on doing this to two X1s where each has a dual W1 set to handle, but I've kind of been leaning towards not getting it for the T6's X1 since they are in a 2 channel music only rig.

The M-80 will probably be around $5k per channel. Each M-80 will be driven by one XdA.

All XdAs are the exact same hardware. Period. The only difference is the filter set that is loaded into it.

The S-80 subwoofer does not need an XdA for it. It uses the XdA that is driving the satellites to get its signal. The S-80 must be driven by an XdA. The S-80 has its own 500W internal amplifier. Retail will probably be $2k.

The M-80 can only be used horizontally. It is designed to be used on the meter bridge of a mixing console.

No stands are available for the M-80.

We won't do a speaker setting in the Controller for the M-80, because the M-80 is a pro product. It is not a consumer product. Everything in its design is optimized for pro use. It is not designed in any way for consumer use.

Sorry, but this is like someone going to Ferrari and asking them to help them certify the Ferrari engine in their F1 car, so they can get it registered in the US. Go out and buy an F360 or an Enzo!!!

Jack, would a M80/dual S80 set up be THE ultimate rock speaker combination out of all NHTs, past or present?

Among mine, I think the T6s and 3.3s are prolly the best "rock" speakers. :D

I'm planning on doing this to two X1s where each has a dual W1 set to handle, but I've kind of been leaning towards not getting it for the T6's X1 since they are in a 2 channel music only rig. Well it has zero effect for music unless you're into 50cent or something like that. :rolleyes:

We're talking about music first, so don't expect anything on that front; movie magic yes...cool factor is high.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v354/keysman/remodel/surround2.jpg

Remember my room? Well I thought there was going to be an easy way to run wire through the ceiling to rear speakers like the iC4s. It turns out the pathway that I thought was there is not. It is going to be a lot harder to wire up in ceiling speakers than I thought.

I am now thinking about traditional cabinet speakers for my surrounds. If I want to use M5s in the front, what are my best options for the rear. I would guess another pair of M5s would be the best choice. Is there anything else that would work? If I go with the M5s I would probably use the P5 stands.

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

Well it has zero effect for music unless you're into 50cent or something like that. :rolleyes:

We're talking about music first, so don't expect anything on that front; movie magic yes...cool factor is high.


Yeah, well, the VT3 does supposedly go a little lower than the T6s, but the T6s have a little more output, so it sounds like the mod would just about make them pretty close to being even. Closer anyway. :o

I am now thinking about traditional cabinet speakers for my surrounds. If I want to use M5s in the front, what are my best options for the rear. I would guess another pair of M5s would be the best choice. Is there anything else that would work? If I go with the M5s I would probably use the P5 stands.

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

Your options are pretty simple really, either M5s or on wall L5s.

That's what I thought. I would go for the Classic 3s but since my fronts are going to be placed in my EC I think the Evos will be best. I think that's what Jack recommended some time ago anyway.

John,
IIRC, these are rather short. Do you also have them in 28"?

John and MASidoc:
Are those prices per or pair (I assume "each")?

Peter


No, I think it's per pair. I think I paid ~$129 but I can't remember where I got them.

Mark

You should get a M80/S80 set on display, and see how many of those you can move at double the price of the Xds. ;) :)

Well, the problem is they won't appeal to audiophiles because they don't look pretty. HOWEVER, they will appeal to the couple of customers I have that actually have a big theater room with speakers hidden.

Oh, yeah, hence the smiley in my post...

No regrets. In retrospect I would have at least considered the L5 given my instinct to wall mount them...but, alas, my basement/theater project has been in the works for many, many years, and I've been keen on NHT bookshelf speakers for the duration--although I've never owned them. So when I started the research and the NHT web site said "the best bookshelf speaker we've ever made" they were sold before I ever even listened to them. Foolish perhaps vis-a-vis "due diligence", but as I said, "no regrets." (I had the same pre-conceived thoughts owning a Yamaha receiver...but I don't really regret that one either.)

Then, I decided on the U1 over the Twelve based on the information in this thread...now I'm itching to add a second A1/W1....and watching the whole 20hz mod topic carefully.

Right now I'm at about:
30% HDTV
30% multi-channel music (SACD+DVD-A)
25% movies (DVD)
15% stereo music

in a room 18x27 where only half of it is theater (18x14), the other half bar. AZs feed the bar as "zone 2" but I find I'm not turning them on very often. They're useless for the m-c music and the Threes filter into the bar pretty well. I'm really thinking the extra A1/W1 will help fill things out. In all honesty, I probably need some room treatments as well, but buying electronics is more fun. :cool:

Thanks,
Mark/masidoc



But you'll also have MUCH better bass than the Fours, and if you were to add the cost of the X2 and 2 A1s to the Fours, then you're prolly talking about the same, or even more money than dual W1s.

How good of a deal is this for Classic 3's?

Ebay item #140102707020

How good of a deal is this for Classic 3's?

Ebay item #140102707020

EDIT: Whoops, missed that these were "used" rather than grey market. Great find and enjoy!

How good of a deal is this for Classic 3's?

Ebay item #140102707020

Were you the (a?) winning bidder?

If they are legit and they work properly it is a great price.

Speakers have been known to have issues right out of the box and in that case it is good to be dealing with an authorized dealer.

I have a T6 / M6 setup. I would trade it in a second for a 4 pair of NHT3.3s and A AC-2.

Were you the (a?) winning bidder?

If they are legit and they work properly it is a great price.

Speakers have been known to have issues right out of the box and in that case it is good to be dealing with an authorized dealer.

They are probably genuine, but have no warranty. NHT doesn't exactly control their distribution with an iron fist. If I were a dealer I'd find this pretty infuriating.

Yeah, well, the VT3 does supposedly go a little lower than the T6s, but the T6s have a little more output, so it sounds like the mod would just about make them pretty close to being even. Closer anyway. :o Right about even or even better; plus you get flexibility of placement. It really adds alot of depth. As good as the U1 system is, always had an itch to go to 20hz...itch is no more, very very nice & the price shuts out the competition. Those big ported boom subs can't come close to the silky smooth performance of an acoustic suspension U1 with 20hz mod. :D :D

They are probably genuine, but have no warranty. NHT doesn't exactly control their distribution with an iron fist. If I were a dealer I'd find this pretty infuriating. Dealers have no say in what an end user can do with the product, therefore zero reason to be 'infuriated'. If you read the auction information, it did say 'purchased very recently from an authorized dealer'. If in fact that is true and they have not been opened/registered, I would say the buyer can register & enjoy the full warranty. Genuine is genuine. I could sell my whole system for $1...don't be silly. :rolleyes:

Mark R:
I have two JBL S120IIP's in front, one under L and one under R speaker. I have one ACI Titan II.
Measured in room is from 20hz on up. I get 24 Hz from the JBL's. The ACI provides the real low stuff.

Dealers have no say in what an end user can do with the product, therefore zero reason to be 'infuriated'. If you read the auction information, it did say 'purchased very recently from an authorized dealer'. If in fact that is true and they have not been opened/registered, I would say the buyer can register & enjoy the full warranty. Genuine is genuine. I could sell my whole system for $1...don't be silly. :rolleyes:

I think you misunderstood. Some manufacturers make an effort to make sure that their products are sold only through authorized dealers, and not through the grey market. Products sold through the grey market usually will not be warrantied by the manufacturer, and are often sold at a discount that traditional B&M dealers cannot compete with.

I think you misunderstood. Some manufacturers make an effort to make sure that their products are sold only through authorized dealers, and not through the grey market. Products sold through the grey market usually will not be warrantied by the manufacturer, and are often sold at a discount that traditional B&M dealers cannot compete with. Did not misunderstand anything; if the auction information is accurate, then these are legitimately obtained product and not 'grey marketed' in any way.

Did not misunderstand anything; if the auction information is accurate, then these are legitimately obtained product and not 'grey marketed' in any way.

Sorry, I looked again, and what I am talking about does not apply to that particular auction.

Sorry, I looked again, and what I am talking about does not apply to that particular auction. No problem. Fyi, I do not support grey marketing of NHT or any other a/v products. :)

Were you the (a?) winning bidder?

If they are legit and they work properly it is a great price.

Speakers have been known to have issues right out of the box and in that case it is good to be dealing with an authorized dealer.

Yes I was. I jumped when I saw the price that low and prayed I would not get into a bidding war at the end. They are factory sealed so I'd like to think the speakers will be fine, but I have also asked the seller to send me the receipt from the authorized dealer so I will have no problems getting it under warranty.

Congrats, enjoy.

That's what I thought. I would go for the Classic 3s but since my fronts are going to be placed in my EC I think the Evos will be best. I think that's what Jack recommended some time ago anyway.

Dude, just get something already! Every day you are here stressing out over your surrounds is one day more that you could have been enjoying your system.

If you have 3 M5s across the front stage, you are set. Surrounds are far less critical, as only what, maybe 10 - 15% of the sound even comes from back there. Just get L5s and put them up on the wall, or M5s on P5s and be done with it! :)

Well, the problem is they won't appeal to audiophiles because they don't look pretty. HOWEVER, they will appeal to the couple of customers I have that actually have a big theater room with speakers hidden.

They don't look that bad IMO, especially when they would be in the dark most of the time anyway.

The only thing that would bother me would be that they HAVE to be placed horizontally according to Jack.

I have a T6 / M6 setup. I would trade it in a second for a 4 pair of NHT3.3s and A AC-2.

I'll bet dammit you would! Hell, I myself would trade a T6/M6 set up for four pairs of 3.3s and an AC2 too, in a heartbeat! :p

Why would you want 4 pairs of 3.3s though? :confused:

Right about even or even better; plus you get flexibility of placement.

Well yes, in the case of W1s, but not in the case of the B6s on the T6s.

I haven't applied the 20 Hz update from the NHT website to my Xds either, and prolly won't since they are for 2 channel music only.

I think you misunderstood. Some manufacturers make an effort to make sure that their products are sold only through authorized dealers,

But what about the many, many parts of the country where there are no authorized NHT dealers? Lets face it, they are not exactly a dime - a - dozen.

I know there are "authorized" on-line e-tailers, but if I have to buy them online anyway, then I'd just as well go for price since in the unlikely event something ever happens to them (especially the passive models), I'd still be saving $$$ even if I had to pay to fix them myself.

But what about the many, many parts of the country where there are no authorized NHT dealers? Lets face it, they are not exactly a dime - a - dozen.

I know there are "authorized" on-line e-tailers, but if I have to buy them online anyway, then I'd just as well go for price since in the unlikely event something ever happens to them (especially the passive models), I'd still be saving $$$ even if I had to pay to fix them myself.

I have no problem with people buying unauthorized product, I've done it myself. I do have a problem with manufacturers acting like they don't condone unauthorized sales while gladly allowing it to go on because they in fact do want/need the business from people who are not willing to pay a premium for a warranty which they will likely never need.

This practice does hurt B&M dealers because many will walk into a dealer, checkout some speakers, and then go online to find that they can be had for 30% less than what the dealer was asking. Assuming one doesn't need the dealer's service, why buy M5's from your dealer when you can buy online and have M6's for the same price? Maybe the "authorized" dealers should be able to sell the warranty a la carte?

Assuming one doesn't need the dealer's service, why buy M5's from your dealer when you can buy online and have M6's for the same price? Maybe the "authorized" dealers should be able to sell the warranty a la carte? Returnability & customer service. Once a local authorized dealer knows you personally, they will often give you a preferred customer discount which is below any etailers price who could care less who you are. And who doesn't want to hear the speakers before buying? Also, a lot of good dealers will let you demo the unit in your home, which is why I would pay more for the same item, etailer or what have you.

Dude, just get something already! Every day you are here stressing out over your surrounds is one day more that you could have been enjoying your system.

If you have 3 M5s across the front stage, you are set. Surrounds are far less critical, as only what, maybe 10 - 15% of the sound even comes from back there. Just get L5s and put them up on the wall, or M5s on P5s and be done with it! :)

I vote for L5s. I think they'd fit best with the furniture in your room, etc.

But what do I know? I have Classics :-)

I'll bet dammit you would! Hell, I myself would trade a T6/M6 set up for four pairs of 3.3s and an AC2 too, in a heartbeat! :p

Why would you want 4 pairs of 3.3s though? :confused:

Hi Mark,
Right out of the NHT VR-3 manual (embelished a bit).

"For a no-holds barred home theater system..." How about two sets (yes 4) VT-3s, VC-3 center and VR-3s on the sides?

Sincerely,
Martin

Sadly, after seriously flirting with purchasing the NHT Controller/Power5 combo, I've got to look at some alternatives. The problem is availability and cost where I live (Calgary, Alberta, Canada). There is an authorized dealer here but all they stock are the NHT Classic series speakers. I've already decided on the Fours, a 3C and iW4's. In order for me to obtain the NHT separates (or the A1's & X3 for that matter), I would have to special order at this dealer and pay in full (considerably more expensive list price here compared to US). These guys don't want to stock NHT's higher-end stuff. I could possibly purchase these beauties from an authorized US dealer and have them shipped here, but then there is extra duty etc. and any semblance of a "deal" fades away. I just wish I could see, feel and listen to these separates before I buy. Hence my need to come back to earth with a more reasonable alternative. I'm looking for great sound #1, some horsepower #2, bells and whistles #3. As far as better than average AVR's I have considered the Arcam AVR 350, Rotel RSX-1067 and the Marantz 8001. Then there is the Pioneer Elite VSX-84TSXi for a bit less yet. I've also considered some mid-priced separates from NAD and Rotel. Any suggested synergistic recommendations? I wanna wrap this up by the weekend.:confused:

I have a T6 / M6 setup. I would trade it in a second for a 4 pair of NHT3.3s and A AC-2.

I HAD a T6 / M6 / U1 setup...

I now have a 3.3 Mains / 2.9 Surrounds / AC2 / U1 setup... trust me... this is THE BOMB! The best I have ever heard....

Four 12's and Two 10's(all acoustic suspension) spread throughout the room give the most dynamic and uniform bass I have experienced in a 5.1 setup. The ability to set all channels to LARGE in the processor eliminates the signal degradation resulting from the channel summing process of bass management.

Of course... 3.3's in the rear would really be off the charts...

I have no problem with people buying unauthorized product, I've done it myself. I do have a problem with manufacturers acting like they don't condone unauthorized sales while gladly allowing it to go on because they in fact do want/need the business from people who are not willing to pay a premium for a warranty which they will likely never need.

This practice does hurt B&M dealers because many will walk into a dealer, checkout some speakers, and then go online to find that they can be had for 30% less than what the dealer was asking. Assuming one doesn't need the dealer's service, why buy M5's from your dealer when you can buy online and have M6's for the same price? Maybe the "authorized" dealers should be able to sell the warranty a la carte?

Oh, I know what you are saying, and I fully agree for the most part.

All things being equal, I'd certainly rather deal with the fully authorized local B&M dealer, but unfortunately, not all things are always equal, and by that, I don't just mean the price either.

All I will say is that the people local to John just don't know how lucky they are, and I'll leave it at that.

Hi Mark,
Right out of the NHT VR-3 manual (embelished a bit).

"For a no-holds barred home theater system..." How about two sets (yes 4) VT-3s, VC-3 center and VR-3s on the sides?

Sincerely,
Martin

Oh yeah Martin, a 5.1 set up with 2 pairs of VT-3s (or a 7.1 with 3 pairs) for mains and surrounds would be the bomb! :eek:

Think about it, not only would you have true full range speakers at every position except center, but you would also have the option of running them as bi-poles as well. :D

I could have done that too, as I had 2 pairs of VT-3s right up until recently when I traded a set for a Classic set, but I just felt that a pair of VT-3s for surrounds would have been wayyyyyy too much overkill, and an almost criminal under-utilization of a pair of VT-3's capabilities.

Unless it was a typo, I just didn't understand why Darian would want 4 pairs of 3.3s. :confused:

Sadly, after seriously flirting with purchasing the NHT Controller/Power5 combo, I've got to look at some alternatives. The problem is availability and cost where I live (Calgary, Alberta, Canada). There is an authorized dealer here but all they stock are the NHT Classic series speakers. I've already decided on the Fours, a 3C and iW4's. In order for me to obtain the NHT separates (or the A1's & X3 for that matter), I would have to special order at this dealer and pay in full (considerably more expensive list price here compared to US). These guys don't want to stock NHT's higher-end stuff. I could possibly purchase these beauties from an authorized US dealer and have them shipped here, but then there is extra duty etc. and any semblance of a "deal" fades away. I just wish I could see, feel and listen to these separates before I buy. Hence my need to come back to earth with a more reasonable alternative. I'm looking for great sound #1, some horsepower #2, bells and whistles #3. As far as better than average AVR's I have considered the Arcam AVR 350, Rotel RSX-1067 and the Marantz 8001. Then there is the Pioneer Elite VSX-84TSXi for a bit less yet. I've also considered some mid-priced separates from NAD and Rotel. Any suggested synergistic recommendations? I wanna wrap this up by the weekend.:confused:

In addition to NAD, Rotel, Arcam, Marantz, and Pioneer Elite, you might also want to consider HK, Cambridge Audio, Outlaw, the cheaper Evtimova (sp.) separates, and maybe Sherwood Newcastle.

I would also suggest B&K and the 2 upper tier Denon models, but they might be out of your price range. For what some of them cost, you could just get the NHT separates! :eek:

However, if you really, really want to cheap out, at least for an interim basis, why not consider one of those cheap digital path Panasonic AVRs?

Of course... 3.3's in the rear would really be off the charts...

Not to mention having surrounds that aren't lower than your mains. :p :D

Can anyone recommend an inexpensive pair of speaker stands for the Classic 3s? I need the stand to be at least 30".

Dude, just get something already! Every day you are here stressing out over your surrounds is one day more that you could have been enjoying your system.

If you have 3 M5s across the front stage, you are set. Surrounds are far less critical, as only what, maybe 10 - 15% of the sound even comes from back there. Just get L5s and put them up on the wall, or M5s on P5s and be done with it! :)
Mark, you are absolutely right but, I'm not obsessive, I'm just hyper vigilant. :D I want to just get the M5s for the rears but the WAF is low for the M5s in the rear. She doesn't want a big black monolith sitting back there.

The dealer that I'm working with actually told me to go with a pair of SB1s or SB2s for the rears. The SBs are part of the Super Audio line correct? Those are discontinued aren't they? Would there be any problem using SBs as the rears? What would be a fair price on these? I guess the dealer just has some leftover inventory that he probably wants to unload.

Don't get me wrong the dealer seems trustworthy and reliable. I have been very happy dealing with him so far.

Sadly, after seriously flirting with purchasing the NHT Controller/Power5 combo, I've got to look at some alternatives. The problem is availability and cost where I live (Calgary, Alberta, Canada). There is an authorized dealer here but all they stock are the NHT Classic series speakers. I've already decided on the Fours, a 3C and iW4's. In order for me to obtain the NHT separates (or the A1's & X3 for that matter), I would have to special order at this dealer and pay in full (considerably more expensive list price here compared to US). These guys don't want to stock NHT's higher-end stuff. I could possibly purchase these beauties from an authorized US dealer and have them shipped here, but then there is extra duty etc. and any semblance of a "deal" fades away. I just wish I could see, feel and listen to these separates before I buy. Hence my need to come back to earth with a more reasonable alternative. I'm looking for great sound #1, some horsepower #2, bells and whistles #3. As far as better than average AVR's I have considered the Arcam AVR 350, Rotel RSX-1067 and the Marantz 8001. Then there is the Pioneer Elite VSX-84TSXi for a bit less yet. I've also considered some mid-priced separates from NAD and Rotel. Any suggested synergistic recommendations? I wanna wrap this up by the weekend.:confused:
Well, being in Calgary an option would be to get a cheap WestJet flight and come to Vancouver... Seriously there is a very good authorized NHT dealer in Vancouver called Main & Matrix TV/Stereo and a very good and knowleadgeable chap there called Elliot Cohen. He will get you NHT electronics at the best price I've seen in Canada (I live in Burnaby) and also stock Cambridge so you can entertain that as well. For a $160 return flight you can check out some other options, enjoy yourself, and take back some nice carryon luggage ;) .
I'm not sure how he'll feel about me giving out his email, but hoping he's okay with it, it's elliot@mainandmatrix.com.

Can anyone recommend an inexpensive pair of speaker stands for the Classic 3s? I need the stand to be at least 30".

You could look at audioadvisor.com. They usually have a large selection of stands.

Sadly, after seriously flirting with purchasing the NHT Controller/Power5 combo, I've got to look at some alternatives. The problem is availability and cost where I live (Calgary, Alberta, Canada). There is an authorized dealer here but all they stock are the NHT Classic series speakers. I've already decided on the Fours, a 3C and iW4's. In order for me to obtain the NHT separates (or the A1's & X3 for that matter), I would have to special order at this dealer and pay in full (considerably more expensive list price here compared to US). These guys don't want to stock NHT's higher-end stuff. I could possibly purchase these beauties from an authorized US dealer and have them shipped here, but then there is extra duty etc. and any semblance of a "deal" fades away. I just wish I could see, feel and listen to these separates before I buy. Hence my need to come back to earth with a more reasonable alternative. I'm looking for great sound #1, some horsepower #2, bells and whistles #3. As far as better than average AVR's I have considered the Arcam AVR 350, Rotel RSX-1067 and the Marantz 8001. Then there is the Pioneer Elite VSX-84TSXi for a bit less yet. I've also considered some mid-priced separates from NAD and Rotel. Any suggested synergistic recommendations? I wanna wrap this up by the weekend.:confused:

In as much as your 5.1, consider a used pre-pro and amps. Better sound, more power, for your money. Of course very few features, but easily upgradeable. Check out the pre-pro thread in the Amps forum.

Thanks! I gave the dude a call and he seemed quite appreciative of your recommendation. He's putting together a quote...so we'll see! Again, many thanks.

Sadly, after seriously flirting with purchasing the NHT Controller/Power5 combo, I've got to look at some alternatives. The problem is availability and cost where I live (Calgary, Alberta, Canada). There is an authorized dealer here but all they stock are the NHT Classic series speakers. I've already decided on the Fours, a 3C and iW4's. In order for me to obtain the NHT separates (or the A1's & X3 for that matter), I would have to special order at this dealer and pay in full (considerably more expensive list price here compared to US). These guys don't want to stock NHT's higher-end stuff. I could possibly purchase these beauties from an authorized US dealer and have them shipped here, but then there is extra duty etc. and any semblance of a "deal" fades away. I just wish I could see, feel and listen to these separates before I buy. Hence my need to come back to earth with a more reasonable alternative. I'm looking for great sound #1, some horsepower #2, bells and whistles #3. As far as better than average AVR's I have considered the Arcam AVR 350, Rotel RSX-1067 and the Marantz 8001. Then there is the Pioneer Elite VSX-84TSXi for a bit less yet. I've also considered some mid-priced separates from NAD and Rotel. Any suggested synergistic recommendations? I wanna wrap this up by the weekend.:confused:


I have to admitt seeing the avm 30 selling between $1800.00 and $2000.00 it seems hard to pass up on it. Then add an anthem amp and you would be set. The only thing that keeps me coming back the the controller is who it is made by and the fact it should get hdmi 1.3 down the road.
Allen

The dealer that I'm working with actually told me to go with a pair of SB1s or SB2s for the rears. The SBs are part of the Super Audio line correct? Those are discontinued aren't they? Would there be any problem using SBs as the rears? What would be a fair price on these? I guess the dealer just has some leftover inventory that he probably wants to unload.

Don't get me wrong the dealer seems trustworthy and reliable. I have been very happy dealing with him so far.

If you're going to go that route, I'd suggest SB1s. They have the same tweeter as the M5s, and I believe they also have the same 5.25" midbass drivers that the M5s do as well (hopefully Jack will correct me on this if I'm wrong).

The only issue, as B2R always points out, is that you will have to reverse the phase on the SB1s to get them to properly match the M5s.

Of course, if you get a Controller, it will automatically do this for you in the speaker wizard set up menu. ;)

In as much as your 5.1, consider a used pre-pro and amps. Better sound, more power, for your money. Of course very few features, but easily upgradeable. Check out the pre-pro thread in the Amps forum.

Or yet another option is to buy a real good used power amp(s), and get a relatively cheap AVR with pre-outs to use as a pre-pro, such as the HK AVR247 for example, and then simply replace the AVR every few years or so as a pre-pro with another one whenever new formats, features, etc. come along.

Even cheap AVRs, in say the $500 or even less price range, have better chips and DACs than the high $$$ top of the line AVRs from only a few years ago.

And a good power amp today will still be a good power amp 10 years from now. :cool:

Or yet another option is to buy a real good used power amp(s), and get a relatively cheap AVR with pre-outs to use as a pre-pro, such as the HK AVR247 for example, and then simply replace the AVR every few years or so as a pre-pro with another one whenever new formats, features, etc. come along.

Even cheap AVRs, in say the $500 or even less price range, have better chips and DACs than the high $$$ top of the line AVRs from only a few years ago.

And a good power amp today will still be a good power amp 10 years from now. :cool:

This is sort of the route I am taking right now. I use a Simaudio P-5 preamp for two channel that has a bypass that allows me to use a H/K AVR635 for surround. For me spending $3,000 on a pre-pro that will be obsolete in a couple of years just doesn't make sense.

Tim, I have a HK AVR8000, which was their top dog about 5 years ago. It has excellent, top notch power amp and analog pre-amp sections, I'd dare say as good as separates.

Check out these HTM bench test measurement specs of it:

"This graph shows that the AVR 8000's left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 133.5 watts and 1% distortion at 159.9 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 240.8 watts and 1% distortion at 275.7 watts. With five channels driving 8-ohm loads, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 126.6 watts and 1% distortion at 142.9 watts."

from

http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/150/index2.html

So it clearly is just as good as a separate 125 watt X 5 power amp, and, as I stated, it also really has a top notch analog pre-amp section too.

However, the movie processing section of it is getting a little long in the tooth. As I mentioned recently, I also picked up a HK 635 in the same deal when I traded a VT-3 set for a Classic Four based set, and I plan on using the 635 as a pre-pro, while still retaining the 8000's 2 channel analog pre-amp and power amp sections since the 8000 has pre-ins straight to the power amp section on all channels (like a typical NAD), as well as pre-outs.

To tie it all together, I need to get me one of those Sony TA-P9000ES pre-amps like B2R has since it has both 5.1 and L/R 2 channel bypasses. :cool:

I fully agree with you 100%, it is sheer madness to drop thousands on a pre-pro. How many are out there now that are sick they did?

I do have a NAD Silverline S170 pre-pro, but I got it used for less than $700, and there is supposedly an upgrade for it.

I did buy a Controller, but that was clearly a very special case. ;)

You have XDs, correct? Does your Sim-Audio have balanced XLRs by chance? Is it a tube pre-amp?

Or yet another option is to buy a real good used power amp(s), and get a relatively cheap AVR with pre-outs to use as a pre-pro...

Hi Mark,
I got screwed by B&K (upgrade price Ref 20) several years ago and swore never to spend more than ~$500 on a surround component again. Currently I have a couple year old Yamaha demo AVR that cost about $300 that includes pre-amp outs.

This works beautifully doing the DD, DTS processing. When it dies I'll get a newer one.

Sincerely,
Martin

So you did buy an NHT Controller? What are your thoughts about it then in terms of longevity/life cycle?

You could look at audioadvisor.com. They usually have a large selection of stands.

Stupid question... do they make stands big enough for the 3s? Their footprint is over 10x7, and every speaker stand I've seen is like 6x6. And if I am not mistaken, the 3 has one of those akward bases that wouldn't sit properly on a smaller speaker stand.

Stupid question... do they make stands big enough for the 3s? Their footprint is over 10x7, and every speaker stand I've seen is like 6x6. And if I am not mistaken, the 3 has one of those akward bases that wouldn't sit properly on a smaller speaker stand.

The important thing to do is make sure that the rails on the C3 fit on the stand. The distance between the bottom points on the rails is 4 and 7/8". The top plate on my Sanus stands is about 5 and 7/8" wide, so they fit fine.

I guess you could debate whether the rails are the most stable way to interface the speakers and the stands, but I'd imagine that's the way most people are using them.

The important thing to do is make sure that the rails on the C3 fit on the stand. The distance between the bottom points on the rails is 4 and 7/8". The top plate on my Sanus stands is about 5 and 7/8" wide, so they fit fine.

I guess you could debate whether the rails are the most stable way to interface the speakers and the stands, but I'd imagine that's the way most people are using them.

Cool, I was looking at the Sanus too. Very affordable. Thanks.

I'm very unclear on just how much equalization the Controller does with NHT speakers. Are there any "before" and "after" frequency response graphs anywhere? Or could Jack perhaps post something?

I've tried to get before/after graphs, but it seems to be top secret classified homeland security type stuff rather than good marketing information.

Yes, I too would love to see some frequency response plots from those here who are heralding the Controller so much.

(you can generate freq responses yourself with free room eq software, available HERE (http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/))

Then I can compare with the response achieved by the Anthem AVM-50 I have on the way to me to see if going with a non-NHT EQ solution for my NHT speakers is actually as sub-optimal as people here would want me to believe.

I'm very unclear on just how much equalization the Controller does with NHT speakers. Are there any "before" and "after" frequency response graphs anywhere? Or could Jack perhaps post something?

Yes, I too would love to see some frequency response plots from those here who are heralding the Controller so much.

(you can generate freq responses yourself with free room eq software, available HERE (http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/))

Then I can compare with the response achieved by the Anthem AVM-50 I have on the way to me to see if going with a non-NHT EQ solution for my NHT speakers is actually as sub-optimal as people here would want me to believe.

I pity the Foo.... :D <jk!>

[/Mr. T voice]

I also see you're still continuing to rationalize your reasons for choosing an Anthem pre/pro over the Controller, holding on to some false hope that you can 'prove' your way past the the obvious truth that the Controller is the comparatively better choice for an NHT speaker owner. Just because NHT has not furnished you with FR plots that you can compare with those generated from some free java application you dowloaded at the HT Shack Forum, does not change the fact that the Controller can do some things for NHT speaker owners that your Anthem simply can't.

IMO, it is wishful thinking that you will be able to take that free java application and use a modest EQ like the Beringer or McLaren and easily achieve the same results as the Controller's DEQ. Fact is, Vinci labs has access to reams of NHT speaker specific data that make it possible for them to design a DEQ that is optimized for nearly every NHT speaker made. Not only does this better allow for the mixing and matching of NHT speakers, which is useful for those wanting to use surrounds from old generation speakers with newer L/C/R speakers, it also allows for an EQ system that understands the inverted phase problem common with several NHT speaker models.

Given your stated criteria, you really would be better off (IMO) getting a Controller and an external VP, rather than trying to convince yourself that the Anthem's internal VP is a way of having your cake and eating it too. And before you trot out the XLR argument again, it should be noted that the lack of XLR connectors is not sufficient enough reason to eliminate the Controller, unless you insist on locating the amp(s) considerably further from the pre/pro than what most HT installations require. While I do think Anthem makes quality products, I also think the Controller remains a far better choice for NHT speaker owners. If you really need extensive VP, then buy an external VP; but do yourself a favor and don't handicap your pre/pro selection by rationalizing your 'work around' for that requirement.

Cool, I was looking at the Sanus too. Very affordable. Thanks.

I have the Steel Foundations.

Nice and solid, resonably stylish (though matte black rather than glossy).

My primary complaint only applies if you're mass loading them. The tops and bottoms of the column (cylindrical caps, basically) are soldered on and only have small holes in their centers for attaching screws, no more than 1/4" in diameter. Trying to fill them with sand was a very slow and frustrating process.

Other than that, they're good, though. I'd stay away from their Natural Foundations line. They're very light. Feel like they'd blow over in a breeze. I owned a pair of them prior to the SF models and the SF models did actually improve the sound appreciably. The NF models have been relegated to bedroom stereo duty...

Fact is, Vinci labs has access to reams of NHT speaker specific data that make it possible for them to design a DEQ that is optimized for nearly every NHT speaker made.

Just because they "have access" to that speaker data doesn't address the question of what they have done with that data. To what extent has, for example, a Classic Three or Four been equalized? If I paired a Controller with such speakers, would I be getting the functional equivalent of a fully parametric EQ with 20 bands, or a graphic EQ with 2 bands, or what?

I haven't bought anything yet, so I don't have to rationalize anything (I realize the rationalizing comment wasn't directed at me). But I'd prefer having some information over buying basically on faith.

So you did buy an NHT Controller? What are your thoughts about it then in terms of longevity/life cycle?

Yes, and I will say again what I have said before - you simply can not get a better pre-amp, even if it were just for 2 channel only, much less surround sound, for NHT speakers, at any price, PERIOD! End of story!

As for longevity/life cycle, if by that you mean the day to day operation, it, like anything else, has it's idiosyncrasies that you quickly get used to.

If you meant for future proof, Jack has already confirmed that HDMI 1.3 is on the way, not a matter of if, but when, and there is plenty of room and processing power for updates, both hardware and software, for the foreseeable future. :cool:

Here is what is known about the Controller:

"If you do own NHT speakers, you begin with the first item, NHT Speaker Wizard, and select from lists which speaker model serves each channel (mixes of speakers made by NHT and other companies can also be accommodated). You don't have to say how big any NHT model is—the Controller already knows that, and many other aspects of these members of the family. According to Esa Piirila of NHT Europe,

• DSP has 16 second-order filter blocks reserved for NHT speaker correction.
• Typically 2–3 filters are used per speaker depending on how much compensation is needed. The filter allocation is done dynamically depending on what speakers you have in the system.
• The processing is done using 48-bit arithmetic.
• Crossover frequency and slope are set automatically based on acoustical measurements of the actual NHT speaker on that channel and the NHT speakers on all other channels.
• Slight EQ is applied to some speaker models (mainly crossover region) for better matching to other NHT speaker models.
• Group delay between different speaker combinations is automatically compensated.
• The polarity of some speakers is reversed to keep the acoustic output of the midrange in phase with other speakers in the system.

"The main idea." he added, "is to use DSP processing to make good-sounding NHT speakers sound just a little bit better without the end user having to know anything about acoustics. We are not trying to do any heavy speaker EQ to correct every single notch and dip."

Of course, even with NHT speakers, one needs to go through the autocalibration procedure to account for room acoustics and placement. Nonetheless, there is a distinct advantage to combining the Controller with NHT speakers, and one can only hope that the DSP engine's considerable horsepower will aid those of us with non-NHT speakers in future firmware upgrades."

from

http://www.stereophile.com/musicintheround/107mitr/

Especially take note of what I made bolder & bigger. Apparently, this gives you a small taste of XD technology in NHT's conventional speakers. :cool:

Just because they "have access" to that speaker data doesn't address the question of what they have done with that data. To what extent has, for example, a Classic Three or Four been equalized? If I paired a Controller with such speakers, would I be getting the functional equivalent of a fully parametric EQ with 20 bands, or a graphic EQ with 2 bands, or what?

I haven't bought anything yet, so I don't have to rationalize anything (I realize the rationalizing comment wasn't directed at me). But I'd prefer having some information over buying basically on faith.

Perhaps Jack can add some more information to what Esa Piirila shared with Kal and Mark quoted?

Also worth following, is Kal's next installment of the Controller review where he will put the new Audyssey Sound Equalizer and AudysseyPro software in to play, connecting it between the Controller and Power5. I think Kal's review summation is notable:

"Overall, the $4750 combination of NHT's Controller and Power5 rivaled the best processor-amp partnerings I've used, and would be worthy of speakers even more sophisticated than the Paradigm Reference Studios. The Controller, in particular, offers a unique combination of intelligent design, audiophile considerations, and outright good sound far better than you'd expect at the price."

"Overall, the $4750 combination of NHT's Controller and Power5 rivaled the best processor-amp partnerings I've used, and would be worthy of speakers even more sophisticated than the Paradigm Reference Studios. The Controller, in particular, offers a unique combination of intelligent design, audiophile considerations, and outright good sound far better than you'd expect at the subsidized price."

I just made the quote as it originally should have been for you. :p

I just made the quote as it originally should have been for you. :p

I would have been positively shocked, had you let the quote pass unremarked. :p

I just thought of something. The sub amp in the Verve sub would *easily* fit in a tower speaker. Dual Verve subs cost about $1700. The NHT Three is $800/pr. Therefore, a "Classic 5" could be done rather easily for $2500/pr. The big thing would be to give the subs more space to breathe and lower the FR to about 25Hz and we have ourselves a legitimate T5 replacement.

I just thought of something... There you go again. :rolleyes:

So, do you have any frequency response data that you have taken for your setup that you'd like to share, zaracsan, or are you just selecting the appropriate speaker models in the Controller and taking a leap of faith?

I would love to compare your data to what I had calibrated before with my Aragon Stage One....

That is, only if you have your room acoustically treated. If not, you may not be in a position to make any claims about the Controller's DEQ capabilities, as you could have bigger fish to fry.

BTW, XLR is a minor issue for me, but I do have my just-acquired Aragon Palladium monoblocks sitting away from the pre/pro and by the speakers where they should be.

A bigger, deal-breaking-for-me issue is the Controller's lack of multichannel LPCM over HDMI, which the Anthem does TODAY. Yeah, NHT is promising it and HDMI 1.3 but this is is the first version of this particular product, so who knows when or how they will deliver a solution - and I haven't heard the resident NHT rep chime in yet here about this. Anthem has a proven tract record in this regard, if and when, for example, a jump to HDMI 1.3 is necessary and justified.

As I have mentioned before, based on my particular viewing and listening habits, I do believe (no, not a rationalization) that the benefit provided in the video realm by the Anthem and its all-in-one solution will far outweigh the still questionable audio performance benefit of a same-company pre/pro manufacturer as my speakers. Your borderline fanboy-esque diatribe, name dropping and article quoting which still offers no direct comparison between the two products, will not sway me one bit. I was already pretty happy with the audio performance of my Stage One, and expect the Anthem to improve on that.

I pity the Foo.... :D <jk!>

[/Mr. T voice]

I also see you're still continuing to rationalize your reasons for choosing an Anthem pre/pro over the Controller, holding on to some false hope that you can 'prove' your way past the the obvious truth that the Controller is the comparatively better choice for an NHT speaker owner. Just because NHT has not furnished you with FR plots that you can compare with those generated from some free java application you dowloaded at the HT Shack Forum, does not change the fact that the Controller can do some things for NHT speaker owners that your Anthem simply can't.

IMO, it is wishful thinking that you will be able to take that free java application and use a modest EQ like the Beringer or McLaren and easily achieve the same results as the Controller's DEQ. Fact is, Vinci labs has access to reams of NHT speaker specific data that make it possible for them to design a DEQ that is optimized for nearly every NHT speaker made. Not only does this better allow for the mixing and matching of NHT speakers, which is useful for those wanting to use surrounds from old generation speakers with newer L/C/R speakers, it also allows for an EQ system that understands the inverted phase problem common with several NHT speaker models.

Given your stated criteria, you really would be better off (IMO) getting a Controller and an external VP, rather than trying to convince yourself that the Anthem's internal VP is a way of having your cake and eating it too. And before you trot out the XLR argument again, it should be noted that the lack of XLR connectors is not sufficient enough reason to eliminate the Controller, unless you insist on locating the amp(s) considerably further from the pre/pro than what most HT installations require. While I do think Anthem makes quality products, I also think the Controller remains a far better choice for NHT speaker owners. If you really need extensive VP, then buy an external VP; but do yourself a favor and don't handicap your pre/pro selection by rationalizing your 'work around' for that requirement.

Also, since people like quoting the literature in this thread, I'll point out two interesting things here quoted from an above post:

1) "just a little bit better"
2) "without the end user having to know anything about acoustics"

:)

"The main idea." he added, "is to use DSP processing to make good-sounding NHT speakers sound just a little bit better without the end user having to know anything about acoustics. We are not trying to do any heavy speaker EQ to correct every single notch and dip."

Mr. Foo,

As I stated; everyone has different priorities. If video processing and bells and wistles in a pro-pro is yours, the Anthem is the one for you. If sound quality is first, look elsewhere, and the controller may have a leg up with NHT speakers.

You're preaching to the choir, ericgl. It's Mr. zacaran that is sitting in the front row of the congregation of the church of all things NHT who needs to realize this and not immediately dismiss others' decisions out of hand as "foolish" or "short sighted".

If sound quality is first for me, and it is for 2-channel music, I go upstairs and listen to my Jolida tube setup in my family room.

:)

This is a home theater preamp we're talking about here. You say "bells and whistles", but the CURRENT multichannel LPCM HDMI functionality of the Anthem gives you the capability of having hi-def/uncompressed HD-DVD and Blu-ray audio formats, and DVD-audio, all instantly HDMI switchable (instead of having to swap out a bunch of analog cables or suffer through some less than optimal analog switching). Are we going to dismiss this?

Mr. Foo,

As I stated; everyone has different priorities. If video processing and bells and wistles in a pro-pro is yours, the Anthem is the one for you. If sound quality is first, look elsewhere, and the controller may have a leg up with NHT speakers.

but I do have my just-acquired Aragon Palladium monoblocks sitting away from the pre/pro and by the speakers where they should be.



Mr Foo what speakers are you driving the palladiums with i don't remember.
Allen

So, do you have any frequency response data that you have taken for your setup that you'd like to share, zaracsan, or are you just selecting the appropriate speaker models in the Controller and taking a leap of faith?

I would love to compare your data to what I had calibrated before with my Aragon Stage One....

That is, only if you have your room acoustically treated. If not, you may not be in a position to make any claims about the Controller's DEQ capabilities, as you could have bigger fish to fry.

Was that supposed to make you sound like you know what you are talking about and I don't? Pretty silly, considering your questions only serve to demonstrate that you are still missing the point here; as well highlighting the fact that your are not keeping up with what was recently posted in this thread.

No, there is isn't any frequency response data to share at this point, as my home theater (and house) are in the process of being remodeled. When I go home tonight I will be greeted by the smell of Green Glue, as my 'theater space' is in the process of being double rocked and GG'ed, as part of my planned room (and house) acoustic treatments. The 16 foot bass trap in the corner is already completed, with absorptive and diffusive elements to be added after the paint drys and the room is swept and my HT system is fully tweaked. What was that you were saying about frying fish??? :rolleyes:

While the NHT specific DEQ is a nice bonus for NHT speaker owners, the Controller can make a fine accounting of itself without it. I listened to a dedicated HT with the same very M6 speakers and NHT electronics that I have prior to writing the check for them. Given that I was utterly amazed by the overall quality of sound, there was no "leap of faith" required for me to know how kick a$$ this system will sound in my home. Obviously the room itself was the biggest variable between my setup and the one I listened too, but given my belief that the room needs to be addressed before electronic tweaking is done, I think there is a pretty fair chance that the Controller supplied DEQ will be a positive addition to the system. If not, there are always other options; but for now, I don't have any reason to believe that it won't yield similar results for me.

BTW, XLR is a minor issue for me, but I do have my just-acquired Aragon Palladium monoblocks sitting away from the pre/pro and by the speakers where they should be.

A bigger, deal-breaking-for-me issue is the Controller's lack of multichannel LPCM over HDMI, which the Anthem does TODAY. Yeah, NHT is promising it and HDMI 1.3 but this is is the first version of this particular product, so who knows when or how they will deliver a solution - and I haven't heard the resident NHT rep chime in yet here about this. Anthem has a proven tract record in this regard, if and when, for example, a jump to HDMI 1.3 is necessary and justified.

I think you are making a bigger deal out of LPCM than you should be. Both Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio are lossless formats. As LPCM is inherently inefficient in terms of storage space and bandwidth requirements compared to TrueHD and DTS-HD MA formats, it is very likely that the studios will continue mastering with 24/48 audio. Sony has already said it intends to stay with 24-bit to 16-bit downconversionon of LPCM releases for the forseeable future; and I expect others will follow their lead. Give that both BluRay and HD-DVD players can unpack and transfer a perfectly lossless data stream via HDMI, it does not force the issue of unpacking in the receiver or pre/pro instead; thus making your requirement of "multichannel LPCM over HDMI" unimportant in the larger scheme of things.

have mentioned before, based on my particular viewing and listening habits, I do believe (no, not a rationalization) that the benefit provided in the video realm by the Anthem and its all-in-one solution will far outweigh the still questionable audio performance benefit of a same-company pre/pro manufacturer as my speakers. <insults snipped>

And as I have mentioned before, I remain of the opinion that Anthem's idea of shoehorning an external VP in to an already existing pre/pro form factor is a fundamentally flawed idea. Unless Anthem has added to their limited display resolutions, it is also an internal VP that is not even capable of working with some of the most popular PDPs. If you need a VP, then IMO, the best choice is to buy a more fully featured and capable external VP, as they do not compromise the pre/pro design, as well as having many more features and are capable of being tweaked to a much greater degree.

Please don't bother replying to this post, as I will be adding you to my ignore list.

Best of luck to you Mr. Foo.

Ummmm, guys, peace? This is the NHT thread, not the over $20K thread. The Anthem seems like a nice processor.

Comments below. Sad that you have now chosen to ignore me, but something tells me that you're the type of guy that can't help but respond.

Was that supposed to make you sound like you know what you are talking about and I don't? Pretty silly, considering your questions only serve to demonstrate that you are still missing the point here; as well highlighting the fact that your are not keeping up with what was recently posted in this thread.

You're right, I have no idea what you are talking about. Any points you may have made are heavily opinionated or subjective. All I am curious about is some end-user frequency response data which should give us a little objectivity on whether all this touted preamp/speaker EQ synergy is worth it. I have followed most of this thread. Also noticed your comments about cars. I drive a Mercedes - you probably think that is shortsighted as well.... :)


No, there is isn't any frequency response data to share at this point, as my home theater (and house) are in the process of being remodeled. When I go home tonight I will be greeted by the smell of Green Glue, as my 'theater space' is in the process of being double rocked and GG'ed, as part of my planned room (and house) acoustic treatments. The 16 foot bass trap in the corner is already completed, with absorptive and diffusive elements to be added after the paint drys and the room is swept and my HT system is fully tweaked. What was that you were saying about frying fish??? :rolleyes:


That's great to hear - kudos to you, sir. Perhaps you made a budget decision with the Controller to allow for the acoustic treatments, which is smart ( :) j/k). The NHT seems to provide great value at it's pricepoint - I don't dispute that.


While the NHT specific DEQ is a nice bonus for NHT speaker owners, the Controller can make a fine accounting of itself without it. I listened to a dedicated HT with the same very M6 speakers and NHT electronics that I have prior to writing the check for them. Given that I was utterly amazed by the overall quality of sound, there was no "leap of faith" required for me to know how kick a$$ this
system will sound in my home. Obviously the room itself was the biggest variable between my setup and the one I listened too, but given my belief that the room needs to be addressed before electronic tweaking is done, I think there is a pretty fair chance that the Controller supplied DEQ will be a positive addition to the system. If not, there are always other options; but for now, I don't have any reason to believe that it won't yield similar results for me.


Previous posts of yours were proclaiming that the DEQ is what sets the Controller apart when used with NHT speakers. Sounds to me that even in your case like the jury is still out on this one... I went through the same subjective auditioning process with the Anthem and felt the same way about its sound. DEQ performance can be judged a bit more objectively, but I haven't seen anything on the NHT to prove out your proclamations.


I think you are making a bigger deal out of LPCM than you should be. Both Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio are lossless formats. As LPCM is inherently inefficient in terms of storage space and bandwidth requirements compared to TrueHD and DTS-HD MA formats, it is very likely that the studios will continue mastering with 24/48 audio. Sony has already said it intends to stay with 24-bit to 16-bit downconversionon of LPCM releases for the forseeable future; and I expect others will follow their lead. Give that both BluRay and HD-DVD players can unpack and transfer a perfectly lossless data stream via HDMI, it does not force the issue of unpacking in the receiver or pre/pro instead; thus making your requirement of "multichannel LPCM over HDMI" unimportant in the larger scheme of things.



Huh? I **AM** talking about unpacked transfer of lossless data via HDMI, which the Anthem can take right now, but the NHT cannot, at least not multichannel. Did you just go and grab random verbage on this and paste here? The Anthem is already future proof in this regard, at least while players are doing the decoding which is the case now for the most part, with more capabilities to come via firmware upgrades and new players. Software is also providing uncompressed PCM directly on the disc, as with some BD titles. As they have shown in the past, I am sure the Anthem will have a HDMI 1.3 upgrade solution when decoding becomes necessary at the pre/pro.


And as I have mentioned before, I remain of the opinion that Anthem's idea of shoehorning an external VP in to an already existing pre/pro form factor is a fundamentally flawed idea. Unless Anthem has added to their limited display resolutions, it is also an internal VP that is not even capable of working with some of the most popular PDPs. If you need a VP, then IMO, the best choice is to
buy a more fully featured and capable external VP, as they do not compromise the pre/pro design, as well as having many more features and are capable of being tweaked to a much greater degree.


You have proven no basis for a "flawed idea" or "compromised design" other than a few (1?) isolated heat issues with the D2. As for "limited display resolutions",the Gennum chip allows for firmware upgrades for the addition of more and more display resolutions. Perhaps it didn't meet your needs when you were considering it? They have added a lot more options since the unit was made available. There are enough features with the VP to make it competitive with other touted VP's (such as DVDO VP50, which I abandoned).

Right now - 2.5i's. Classic Fours are on their way to me....

Mr Foo what speakers are you driving the palladiums with i don't remember.
Allen

If sound quality is first for me, and it is for 2-channel music, I go upstairs and listen to my Jolida tube setup in my family room.

:)

I have or had some Jolidas, including their two top of the line integrateds, the JD 1000A, the JD 801A, as well as their top of the line "hybrid" (tube pre-amp/SS power amp section) integrateds for both 2 channel and HT, the JD 1501RC 2 channel and two of the JD 1703A 3 channel units.

Not knocking the Jolidas in any way, shape, or form whatsoever as I think they offer absolutely fantastic bang for the buck for tube equipment, but dude, trust me on this, the Controller and Power5 (or Power2) are far superior than even the best Jolida amp, even on 2 channel, on any NHT speaker (no matter what tubes you wanna put in the Jolidas). :)

I just thought of something. The sub amp in the Verve sub would *easily* fit in a tower speaker. Dual Verve subs cost about $1700. The NHT Three is $800/pr. Therefore, a "Classic 5" could be done rather easily for $2500/pr. The big thing would be to give the subs more space to breathe and lower the FR to about 25Hz and we have ourselves a legitimate T5 replacement.

The Four with an X2 and a single A1 retails for the same as T5s did, as would dual A1s on each, and in either case, I'd still take the T5s. :p

But I think what you are trying to get at is a powered tower without external amps and crossover on separate chassis, but rather, built into the tower itself?

I would have been positively shocked, had you let the quote pass unremarked. :p

Well, you know how it is, it's like when you are playing volleyball, and whenever someone lobs one just up over the net, you just have to spike it every time! :D

So, do you have any frequency response data that you have taken for your setup that you'd like to share, zaracsan, or are you just selecting the appropriate speaker models in the Controller and taking a leap of faith?

I would love to compare your data to what I had calibrated before with my Aragon Stage One....

What good would it do to compare the measurements from being in different rooms anyway, not to even mention, different model speakers at that?

Any points you may have made are heavily opinionated or subjective.

You may have a point, but don't cast stones from glass houses yourself there Mr. Foo! :p

Edit - I just looked up the retail price of the Anthem 50. :eek:

Dude, for the $$$ that cost (along with the Fours), you could get a dual sub XD based system instead, and even if you were to put a $500 AVR with it as a pre-pro, I can pretty much damned well guarantee you that it would blow away a Four based system no matter what electronics you put with the Fours (and yes, this also includes the NHT Controller). ;)

Just food for thought. :cool:

Yeah, you're right. I guess a better comparison would be to compare the following with the NHT system:

1) response with DEQ disabled (baseline)
2) response when you set the specific NHT speaker model numbers in the setup
3) response when you pretend that the speakers are non-NHT and set up manually

What good would it do to compare their measurements from being in different rooms anyway?

Also, since people like quoting the literature in this thread, I'll point out two interesting things here quoted from an above post:

1) "just a little bit better"
2) "without the end user having to know anything about acoustics"

:)

I think maybe what you are not taking into account here, is that it affects corrections in the speaker itself, much more so than from the room it is in.

It is actually speaker correction, not room correction. Big difference there.

And the Controller is the ONLY place you can get it right now.

Yeah, you're right. I guess a better comparison would be to compare the following with the NHT system:

1) response with DEQ disabled (baseline)
2) response when you set the specific NHT speaker model numbers in the setup 3) response when you pretend that the speakers are non-NHT and set up manually

Somewhere on this long thread, and I will make a token attempt to try to find it after I post this if I can without too much trouble, I posted about how I did do quick A/B comparisons with a pair of ST4s with everything the same except for the pre-amps, and while I didn't take measurements, the improvement the Controller made in the sound was definitely, noticeably obvious, especially in their bass performance and integration.

I don't think most of comments could be constituted as throwing stones, and it was mr. zaracsan who cast the first one with his comments about my decision being short-sighted. If I did, I just get a little frustrated with people who make narrow minded judgements like this on these forums.

I am always upgrading my system. I will probably take a long look at the XD's next, based on what I have seen here. I pulled the trigger on the Classic Fours and 3C now because I was able to a brand new LCR setup for $1300 and figured this would still be a big improvement on my 2.5i/AudioCenter 1. I have an HSU VTF3 MKii sub that replaced a NHT SW2PI (more of a musical sub than a HT sub), that may be on the chopping block next......

You may have a point, but don't cast stones from glass houses yourself there Mr. Foo! :p

Edit - I just looked up the retail price of the Anthem 50. :eek:

Dude, for the $$$ that cost (along with the Fours), you could get a dual sub XD based system instead, and even if you were to put a $500 AVR with it as a pre-pro, I can pretty much damned well guarantee you that it would blow away a Four based system no matter what electronics you put with the Fours (and yes, this also includes the NHT Controller). ;)

Just food for thought. :cool:

Hmmm... I have a JD1000A. I have this driving a pair Totem Rainmakers. For me, I prefer this, with my JD100 CD player and Rega Planar 3 turntable, to the solid state Aragon/NHT setup I have in the basement. And the Aragon Stage One was acclaimed for it's 2-channel direct mode capability.

Were you using stock tubes?

I have or had some Jolidas, including their two top of the line integrateds, the JD 1000A, the JD 801A, as well as their top of the line "hybrid" (tube pre-amp/SS power amp section) integrateds for both 2 channel and HT, the JD 1501RC 2 channel and two of the JD 1703A 3 channel units.

Not knocking the Jolidas in any way, shape, or form whatsoever as I think they offer absolutely fantastic bang for the buck for tube equipment, but dude, trust me on this, the Controller and Power5 (or Power2) are far superior than even the best Jolida amp, even on 2 channel, on any NHT speaker (no matter what tubes you wanna put in the Jolidas). :)

Somewhere on this long thread, and I will make a token attempt to try to find it after I post this if I can without too much trouble, I posted about how I did do quick A/B comparisons with a pair of ST4s with everything the same except for the pre-amps, and while I didn't take measurements, the improvement the Controller made in the sound was definitely, noticeably obvious, especially in their bass performance and integration.

Found it. This was from before I had a pair of Fours, and still had the T5s on the Controller.

Just out of curiosity and since it really wasn't too much trouble because they are so light, I tried out the ST-4s on the Controller just to see what kind of effect it has on them with it's built in DSP/eq.

I set them up inside of the T5s with their subs facing in. They were about 4' apart, so I put the listening chair about 6' out to keep the recommended 1.5 to 1 spacing, and the TV stand between them is VERY open, so much so that there was very little if any boundary interference from it on the subs.

First I listened to them for a while with a NAD C160 pre-amp, then the Controller in 2 channel stereo mode, but in both cases they had the same source (NAD C542 CD player) and power amp (Adcom GFA-5500 200 watt X 2 at 8 Ohms, which is exactly how much is recommended by NHT for the ST-4s) on both tests. I used Ozzy's No More Tears CD (which has some great bass lines and even some acoustic guitar) and an Aerosmith Greatest Hits type of CD.

To change over, it simply involved switching 2 pairs of cables, and reconfiguring the Controller's Speaker Wizard menu to mains as Super Audio ST-4s, and sub to off (none).

IMO, the ST-4s definitely sounded subtly, but noticeably better with the NHT pre-amp than with the NAD. Now don't get me wrong here, I'm not going to tell you that it magically made such a dramatic night and day kind of difference as to make the ST-4s now sound as good or better than the T5s, but there was noticeable improvement, particularly in the bass. It no longer sounded as loose and bloated on the ST-4s as it did before without the Controller. In fact, it almost sounded sealed with the Controller, but not quite. I suspect this is similar to the difference John heard when trying this with a pair of Fours that he mentioned before, either on this thread or the one in the amp/receiver forum about the NHT electronics.

However, bottom line, the Controller does make an improvement in the sound of them IMO.

Well, this all very subjective of course.

For curiousity sake, if we could get some end-user frequeny response plots comparing the following, it would be a very interesting objective comparison to me (repeated again from above):

1) response with DEQ disabled (baseline)
2) response when you set the specific NHT speaker model numbers in the setup
3) response when you pretend that the speakers are non-NHT and set up manually

Somewhere on this long thread, and I will make a token attempt to try to find it after I post this if I can without too much trouble, I posted about how I did do quick A/B comparisons with a pair of ST4s with everything the same except for the pre-amps, and while I didn't take measurements, the improvement the Controller made in the sound was definitely, noticeably obvious, especially in their bass performance and integration.

Found it. This was from before I had a pair of Fours, and still had the T5s on the Controller.

I don't think most of comments could be constituted as throwing stones, and it was mr. zaracsan who cast the first one with his comments about my decision being short-sighted. If I did, I just get a little frustrated with people who make narrow minded judgements like this on these forums.

Oh, I know, but I meant that specifically about the "opinionated" and "subjective" comments I quoted. We are all guilty of that sometimes. :o

I am always upgrading my system. I will probably take a long look at the XD's next, based on what I have seen here. I pulled the trigger on the Classic Fours and 3C now because I was able to a brand new LCR setup for $1300 and figured this would still be a big improvement on my 2.5i/AudioCenter 1. I have an HSU VTF3 MKii sub that replaced a NHT SW2PI (more of a musical sub than a HT sub), that may be on the chopping block next......

Don't get em wrong, the Fours IMO are definitely a big upgrade over the 2.5is, which were themselves very good speakers in their day, but the fours do eclipse them.

Hmmm... I have a JD1000A. I have this driving a pair Totem Rainmakers. For me, I prefer this, with my JD100 CD player and Rega Planar 3 turntable, to the solid state Aragon/NHT setup I have in the basement. And the Aragon Stage One was acclaimed for it's 2-channel direct mode capability.

Were you using stock tubes?

You know, I've always said the speakers are always the most important part of any system, and the one that the most percentage of $$$ of any given system should go into (IOW, why spend more, much less a lot more, on the electronics than the speakers?), and this kind of goes along with that to reinforce it.

While comparing the 2.5is to the Totems is kind of an apples to oranges comparison, and it's all subjective, I think most people would prolly agree that the Rainmakers are a better speaker then the 2.5i's comparable upper drivers, even though the 2.5i will obviously go much deeper with their dual 8" passive subs.

It's also kind of unfair to compare the NHT electronics to the Jolidas too, based on the price difference. Then again, that's the prolly the same case as well with the Aragons towards the Jolidas too, but the electronics are on different speakers in your comparison, while they were on the same speakers in mine.

What do you think you'd say if the Aragon was on the Totems, or the Jolida on the 2.5is?

I also have a JD100 CD player too. I've tried several tubes, and my favorites are Sovtek LPS or Ei Elites.

How about yours?

Well, this all very subjective of course.

For curiousity sake, if we could get some end-user frequeny response plots comparing the following, it would be a very interesting objective comparison to me (repeated again from above):

1) response with DEQ disabled (baseline)
2) response when you set the specific NHT speaker model numbers in the setup
3) response when you pretend that the speakers are non-NHT and set up manually

Yes, it was subjective, but also, it was definitely noticeable too. I simply didn't need any measurements to hear the improvement it made in them. :p

While I haven't tried the same thing yet on the Fours, I expect the results with the ported subs would prolly be very similar.

BTW, this will sound ridiculous coming from me of all people, but I honestly don't consider myself to be an NHT "fanboy" preaching from the pulpit of the "NHT Church". I call 'em like I see 'em (or hear as the case may be). ;)

On this thread, you will see that I have clearly recommended SVS subs over Tens and Twelves, and also very clearly stated that there are some Revel Concertas at the same or similar price points that I like better than their comparable NHT models. I even got into, not an argument, but a discussion, with John over Carver/Sunfire Dominator sealed subs against NHT Tens and Twelves.

I have also voiced my disdain with the X1's high pass outputs, as Jack is well aware. ;)

Right now - 2.5i's. Classic Fours are on their way to me....


I bet they will sound great with the palladiums on them.
Allen

Here is what is known about the Controller:

"If you do own NHT speakers, you begin with the first item, NHT Speaker Wizard, and select from lists which speaker model serves each channel (mixes of speakers made by NHT and other companies can also be accommodated). You don't have to say how big any NHT model is—the Controller already knows that, and many other aspects of these members of the family. According to Esa Piirila of NHT Europe,

• DSP has 16 second-order filter blocks reserved for NHT speaker correction.
• Typically 2–3 filters are used per speaker depending on how much compensation is needed. The filter allocation is done dynamically depending on what speakers you have in the system.
• The processing is done using 48-bit arithmetic.
• Crossover frequency and slope are set automatically based on acoustical measurements of the actual NHT speaker on that channel and the NHT speakers on all other channels.
• Slight EQ is applied to some speaker models (mainly crossover region) for better matching to other NHT speaker models.
• Group delay between different speaker combinations is automatically compensated.
• The polarity of some speakers is reversed to keep the acoustic output of the midrange in phase with other speakers in the system.

"The main idea." he added, "is to use DSP processing to make good-sounding NHT speakers sound just a little bit better without the end user having to know anything about acoustics. We are not trying to do any heavy speaker EQ to correct every single notch and dip."

Of course, even with NHT speakers, one needs to go through the autocalibration procedure to account for room acoustics and placement. Nonetheless, there is a distinct advantage to combining the Controller with NHT speakers, and one can only hope that the DSP engine's considerable horsepower will aid those of us with non-NHT speakers in future firmware upgrades."

from

http://www.stereophile.com/musicintheround/107mitr/

Especially take note of what I made bolder & bigger. Apparently, this gives you a small taste of XD technology in NHT's conventional speakers. :cool:

Thanks, Mark. Less than I was hoping for in the EQ department, but still of possible interest to me when the time comes for a purchase.

Mark Russ would you mind explaining what you meant about the X1's high pass output in simple terms or perhaps give me a reference to the post(s) where this was discussed previously. I am thinking of starting up my system with a Cambridge Audio 640R coupled to an X1 to the Classic 4's via a couple of A1's. I'd love to understand your concerns before I spend my hard earned cash as I have to pre-order these items as they are not stocked in Hong Kong so can't listen before I buy. Thanks Roy

rmg, May well be a typo, but if you wnt to bi-amp your Fours, you need a X2. The X1 has equalization for the evo subs.

Just don't want to see you order the wrong thing.

I'm not sure why NHT doesn't just do a *single* crossover that has selectable LF contours for various subs and selectable extension. It sure would make things easier!

It would make upgrading to NHT subs easier too. Although I am a pretty small demographic.

Mark Russ would you mind explaining what you meant about the X1's high pass output in simple terms or perhaps give me a reference to the post(s) where this was discussed previously. I am thinking of starting up my system with a Cambridge Audio 640R coupled to an X1 to the Classic 4's via a couple of A1's. I'd love to understand your concerns before I spend my hard earned cash as I have to pre-order these items as they are not stocked in Hong Kong so can't listen before I buy. Thanks Roy

As Eric has already pointed out, you would need the X2, not the X1 for the Fours.

Since the Four already has it's own built in, fixed internal crossover to and from (high and low pass filters) the lower bass drivers and the subs at 125 Hz, I would suggest this:

Set mains to large on the 640R

Take out the jumpers between each Four's set of speaker wire posts!

Run the main L/R speaker outputs from the CA 640R to the Fours top set of speaker wire binding posts for the upper drivers

Run a set of main L/R preouts from the 640R to the X2's main L/R inputs

Jack the X2's low pass filter up all the way as high as it will possibly go to get it "out of the way" to prevent as much double filtering from going on as possible

Run the sub outs of the X2 to the main in of each A1 according to the corresponding channel it is powering

Run the speaker wire from the A1 to the bottom set of of speaker wire binding posts of the appropriate Four it will be powering.

Finally, this is just me, but however long the RCA cables are from the 640R to the X2 plus the length of the RCAs from the X2 to the A1s, I would make the speaker wires from the 640R to the Four's upper drivers that much longer than the set of speaker wires from each A1 to the Four's subs. IOW, if both sets of the RCAs are 3 meters each, then I'd make the upper driver's wire 6 meters longer than the subs.

I have been nothing but impressed with my own CA Azur 540R, and I'm sure the 640R is just that much better. Great choice!

Edit - Now, if you go against my advise here and use the pre-outs of 640R to the pre-ins of the X2, and the high pass pre-outs of the X2 back into the main pre-ins of the 640R, you will then need to make sure that you cut the X2's high pass filter all the way down as low as it will go, to 50 Hz, to eliminate as much nasty double filtering as possible from going on in the upper drivers.

Also, in that case, keep both runs of speaker wire, both for the upper drivers and the subs, the same length. :p

WOW I ask you deliver and how!! Blown away Mark Russ by your generosity in sharing your time and experience. Couple of questions (O.K. 3) based on your very detailed (and easy to follow) instructions: (a) why are there 2 different approaches to wiring things up and (b) why do you favour one approach over the other and finally (c) why in the first preferred method do you reccommend differing cable lengths and not in the second? :D
Cheers
Roy

"(a) why are there 2 different approaches to wiring things up"

Mainly because, as already stated, the Four already has it's own built in fixed internal high and low pass filters between the subs and lower mid drivers at 125 Hz, so not only do you simply not need the X2's crossovers, but you actually don't want them in play too in addition to the Four's. That would be what is known as double filtering.



"(b) why do you favour one approach over the other"

In this case, to try to help prevent and eliminate as much double filtering from going on as possible. In the first scenario, the X2's high pass filters are not engaged at all in the first place, period, end of story, and in the second, they are. Unfortunately, there's no getting around (at least, not that I can think of anyway) the X2's low pass filters, so you have no other choice but to have to engage them, which is why you want to set it up as high as it will possibly go to get it as much out of the loop as possible.



"(c) why in the first preferred method do you recommend differing cable lengths and not in the second?"

Just trying to keep the effective lengths the same for "time alignment", that's all. It's not needed in the second scenario because the amps for both the high and low drivers should have the same length amount of RCA cables, whereas in the the first scenario, the lower bass would have 2 sets of RCA or XLR cables in their path that the upper drivers don't. This is just my own personal preference, but not really necessary.

In any case, all the other controls for the X2 would still be in effect, the gains (both master and LFE), phase, and boundary Eq.

Hey there guy's, my theater room is finally finished, 14x19, and I have bought all my goodies except my speakers. I am looking for a 7.1 setup and been looking hard at the new classic line. I am looking at the classic 3 for fronts, 3c for center and the classic 2 for side and rear surrounds. I am fairly new to the NHT speakers. My first ever set up was cerwin vega's (had for three years) and then I jumped to the Polk's lsi's. My next step is possibly now the NHT's. I just want to make sure I"m getting a great system and upgrade from my last.
90% of my room is for movies and and I'm using a Pioneer Elie VSX-84, my side rears are up high and my rears and ear level. Also I forgot to mention above about the twelve as the sub. Anyway's I need some good advice on these speakers, in your expierence, will I be very HAPPY, or just satisfied?

Thanx

For surround duties in a HT mainly setup, I think the AZs would do as well or better than the Twos. There are better sub choices than the Twelve, IMO.

Anyway's I need some good advice on these speakers, in your expierence, will I be very HAPPY, or just satisfied?

Thanx

I like my Threes a bunch, but I can't speak to how you will ultimately feel about them.

I am fairly new to the NHT speakers. My first ever set up was cerwin vega's (had for three years) and then I jumped to the Polk's lsi's. My next step is possibly now the NHT's. I just want to make sure I"m getting a great system and upgrade from my last.
Thanx

Which Polk's did you owned and what do you think about their sound?

Sorry, but the above quote from Esa is all of the information that we are going to give out with regard to the Controller's speaker processing. We aren't in the business of helping our competititors figure out what we are doing.

Or in the business of helping yourself compete with them :cool:

WOW I ask you deliver and how!! Blown away Mark Russ by your generosity in sharing your time and experience. Couple of questions (O.K. 3) based on your very detailed (and easy to follow) instructions: (a) why are there 2 different approaches to wiring things up and (b) why do you favour one approach over the other and finally (c) why in the first preferred method do you reccommend differing cable lengths and not in the second? :D
Cheers
Roy

Oh, almost forgot. Also, run the sub/LFE out from the 640R into the LFE in on the X2 in addition to the 640R's main L/R pre-outs into the main L/R pre-ins on the X2. Keep mains set to large, and set sub on (or yes) with the sub crossover at 120 Hz.

This way, with the X2's separate master and LFE gain controls, you will really be able to dial the bass in just how you like it for both music and movies, the best of both worlds, where you can literally have your cake and eat it too. :D

Hey there guy's, my theater room is finally finished, 14x19, and I have bought all my goodies except my speakers. I am looking for a 7.1 setup and been looking hard at the new classic line. I am looking at the classic 3 for fronts, 3c for center and the classic 2 for side and rear surrounds. I am fairly new to the NHT speakers. My first ever set up was cerwin vega's (had for three years) and then I jumped to the Polk's lsi's. My next step is possibly now the NHT's. I just want to make sure I"m getting a great system and upgrade from my last.
90% of my room is for movies and and I'm using a Pioneer Elie VSX-84, my side rears are up high and my rears and ear level. Also I forgot to mention above about the twelve as the sub. Anyway's I need some good advice on these speakers, in your expierence, will I be very HAPPY, or just satisfied?

Thanx

I realize you didn't mention Fours, but you also didn't mention exactly which Polk LSis either.

The Four is about the same retail price as the LSi15, and the Four with an X2 and dual A1s retails for about the same as the powered tower LSi25.

The Four will simply have better detail/resolution and dispersion/imaging/soundstaging than the LSi15/25s (which aren't half bad in those areas themselves). Better bass too.

The Three will enjoy similar advantages over the either the LSi9/7, except maybe for the bass, which will obviously be a lot closer on the bookshelf models.

The biggest advantage of all though for the Classics, is that the 3C is a true 3 way center channel speaker with a vertical tweeter/midrange layout, while the Polk LSi center is a 2 way horizontal W/T/W design, along with it's inherent off axis lobing effects.

The only advantage I'd give to the Polks at all is that they do at least give you the option of true on wall mountable surround speakers.

Not to try to sound condescending, but the LSis are real good speakers for Polk though. I certainly wouldn't turn them down if I were offered a set. :D

If you are member of the Club Polk forum, do a search on NHT SB3s. Several members there have them, and they are a very well liked and respected speaker there. A many of a good word has been spoken of them there, and the Threes are clearly a better overall speaker than the SB3s FWIW. :cool:

For surround duties in a HT mainly setup, I think the AZs would do as well or better than the Twos. There are better sub choices than the Twelve, IMO.

Ditto on both points.

I realize you didn't mention Fours, but you also didn't mention exactly which Polk LSis either.
Oh yes, sorry about that, I had the Lsi 9's for fronts, and yes they were great speakers, a little power hungry, but overall nice. I would like to stay with bookshelf for fronts, hence the classic three's, but for the rears you think the AZ's would be fine for all rears, any reason why? I thought the two's might be a better match, even though not much goes to the rears I still don't want to be lacking. I'm a little timid of buying the twelve, cause for the grand it will cost me here in Canada I probably could get a super cube 2 or velodyne that would give me more justice. What do ya think? Thankyou for the input.

Thanks Mark for the education. Just got word from my dealer that there is no stock of X2 & A1's in Hong Kong, apparently not many use them here :( so I'll have to wait for approx. 45 days :mad: . No point air freighting them over either as it will cost too much. Never mind I'll go ahead and purchase the speakers & the 640R first and enjoy them while waiting in eager anticipation for the rest of the toys to come. All that's left is to have a look at the quotation for the speakers that's being faxed to me, do some intensive haggling (in the best Monty Python Life of Brian manner) and get ready for some funnnnnn!
Cheers
Roy

Sorry, but the above quote from Esa is all of the information that we are going to give out with regard to the Controller's speaker processing. We aren't in the business of helping our competititors figure out what we are doing.


Or in the business of helping yourself compete with them :cool:

While I can fully understand protecting proprietary info, at what point does not taking advantage of at least some basic marketing of it start to cost potential sales, as in the case of Mr. Foo and maybe Syswei here for example?

I'm a little timid of buying the twelve, cause for the grand it will cost me here in Canada I probably could get a super cube 2 or velodyne that would give me more justice. What do ya think? Thankyou for the input.

While Velodyne is a great company I have nothing but respect for, Def Tech has been known to greatly inflate and over exaggerate their sub specs FWIW.

Eh, Velodyne kinda lost it when they went for the CC crowd. I've had some Velodynes traded in for NHTs that were really pretty atrocious. The last one, an F1200 kept boomeranging because everyone disliked the sound. I sold it for $200 the last time.

NHT subs are just about as good as it gets at the price range except that they prioritize quality over quantity. I wouldn't say the Ten/Twelve are the "best", but they are musical and accurate and well behaved and I tend to prefer their presentation over most subs I hear. I have a Ten running now with my L5s because it sounds plenty good (and I've been too lazy to lug home a U1.)

If the Tens and Twelves were about half to 60% of their retail price, then I'd say they are OK, and keep in mind I actually own a Twelve, but at their full retail price points, one can do much better.

For example, for about the same price as a Ten, one can get a SVS PB10 NSD instead.

(and I've been too lazy to lug home a U1.)

I found lugging a bit difficult. More of a dragging, really.

[QUOTE]For example, for about the same price as a Ten, one can get a SVS PB10 NSD instead[/QUO

I like the svs subs alot, but there are no dealers where I live, what about Polk? (psw505) for example. Also did you have any reason why you thought the AZ's would be fine for all my surrounds instead of the two's?

NHT is giving WAY more than basic marketing info on what the Controller and other electronic products do in the way of signal manipulation. We are already giving the end user more information than almost any other manufacturer does.

When you go to buy a new Corvette, Chevrolet isn't going to tell you what algorithm they are using to trim the a/f ratio. It is their proprietary information, plus it doesn't matter. You either like the way the engine runs or you don't.

When you go to buy a new Corvette, Chevrolet isn't going to tell you what algorithm they are using to trim the a/f ratio.

14.7:1 ;)
Fuel injection is another hobby of mine http://www.msefi.com/

But I have to say that NHT and their customer service (Matt) are the best I have dealt with in a LONG time!!!! Just amazing, really!!

When you go to buy a new Corvette, Chevrolet isn't going to tell you what algorithm they are using to trim the a/f ratio. It is their proprietary information, plus it doesn't matter. You either like the way the engine runs or you don't.

Perhaps, but they'd sure as heck show you the performance increase. Before/after is the most basic and useful form of marketing. "Like it or don't" isn't quite in the same league, somehow.

But I have to say that NHT and their customer service (Matt) are the best I have dealt with in a LONG time!!!! Just amazing, really!!

Matt's about the nicest, easiest to work with, happy to please person I've seen anywhere.

Does anyone have thoughts on how well the ribbon "super tweeter" ERT from AV123 would work with the NHT M6 speakers for the L/C/R applications? A reveiwer tried them on the Classic 4's and found a positive result. See the review: www.positive-feedback.com/Issue27/ert_tweeters.htm (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue27/ert_tweeters.htm)
I have a feeling it might be an issue with the MTMM design on the M6 for the L & R speakers, with the ERT being so far away from the tweeter of the M6.

[QUOTE]Also did you have any reason why you thought the AZ's would be fine for all my surrounds instead of the two's?

It is easier for the designer to transition from a 5.25 to a tweeter than a 6.5, especially off axis. The Two would have the edge in LF reproduction, but I don't see that as much as a plus for surrounds crossed to a sub at 80Hz for mainly HT.

Off topic FYI...

I just got a Marantz SA-11S1 CD player for my two channel system and the level of fidelity that is coming out of my 3.3's is astonishing now... I highly recommend anybody with a serious 2-channel system check this player out...

One thing that I always felt NHT had working against them was that they are generally paired with inferior electronics... people using receivers with your NHT's are really missing out on great sound. The new NHT amplifiers really seem like great products and the B&O ICE Power Modules they incorporate are apparently quite good. Hopefully there will be a trend towards pairing NHT speakers and electronics and more people will hear what good sound really is!

Upgrading amps had previously brought out new levels from the 3.3's...
My path was Aragon 4004 > BRYSTON 4B-ST > Mark Levinson 23.5 > BRYSTON 4B-SST... if you own 3.3's you MUST buy a BRYSTON 4B-SST... it is a match made in heaven!

Hi guys,

I found a good deal thru a friend for the NHT Classic Three's and a CLassic Three Center. My question to you guys what subwoofer would you recommend other than NHT? I was thinking like SVS, HSU, and Sunfire Super Jr. The room is 20x15 and keep it under $500.00 And I currently have Polks but was planning on moving them to the back for the 7.1 setup, they are also glossy black. If I decide to sell the Polks what would you recommend for the rear's Classic 2's or?
Thanks

This is the same system I am looking at "luckytage" just curious if you have them hooked up yet and what kind of receiver you are using? Keep me posted as I am wondering also what kind of rears I should buy with the classic three's

Does anyone have thoughts on how well the ribbon "super tweeter" ERT from AV123 would work with the NHT M6 speakers for the L/C/R applications? A reveiwer tried them on the Classic 4's and found a positive result. See the review: www.positive-feedback.com/Issue27/ert_tweeters.htm (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue27/ert_tweeters.htm)
I have a feeling it might be an issue with the MTMM design on the M6 for the L & R speakers, with the ERT being so far away from the tweeter of the M6.

On a technical level, I see a lot of problems with this. You're getting duplication of frequencies and I believe a lot of the "benefit" will be comb filtering, not extension of highs. If the crossover were at 20KHz or more, maybe.

Hi guys,

I found a good deal thru a friend for the NHT Classic Three's and a CLassic Three Center. My question to you guys what subwoofer would you recommend other than NHT? I was thinking like SVS, HSU, and Sunfire Super Jr. The room is 20x15 and keep it under $500.00 And I currently have Polks but was planning on moving them to the back for the 7.1 setup, they are also glossy black. If I decide to sell the Polks what would you recommend for the rear's Classic 2's or?
Thanks

Anything but the Sunfire - yech! The AV123 10" sub is probably the better non NHT choice if you want quality over quantity. Do Threes or IW4s for the rears if at all possible.

This is the same system I am looking at "luckytage" just curious if you have them hooked up yet and what kind of receiver you are using? Keep me posted as I am wondering also what kind of rears I should buy with the classic three's

So far I am using a new Yamaha RX-V2700 receiver and my Polks RM7600 system. I have not got them yet. Just trying to see what would be a good sub that will keep up with the fronts?

And I am going to be looking for some speakers stands for the Classic Three's for the fronts. Any reconmendations on the STANDS?

[QUOTE]For example, for about the same price as a Ten, one can get a SVS PB10 NSD instead[/QUO

I like the svs subs alot, but there are no dealers where I live, what about Polk? (psw505) for example. Also did you have any reason why you thought the AZ's would be fine for all my surrounds instead of the two's?

The Polk 505 is not even up to the NHT SW12's (the immediate predecessor to the current Twelve) standards, much less the SVS PB10.

Here are reviews of all three by the same guy, in the same system, in the same room, with all the detailed measurements of the same standards and criteria:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_1/nht-sw12-subwoofer-3-2005.html

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/svs-pb10-subwoofer-10-2004.html

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_2/polk-psw-505-subwoofer-4-2005.html

NHT is giving WAY more than basic marketing info on what the Controller and other electronic products do in the way of signal manipulation. We are already giving the end user more information than almost any other manufacturer does.

When you go to buy a new Corvette, Chevrolet isn't going to tell you what algorithm they are using to trim the a/f ratio. It is their proprietary information, plus it doesn't matter. You either like the way the engine runs or you don't.

I mean no disrespect here, but that's all well and good if you want for the Controller to have a comparable microscopic market share and a very limited sales volume such as that of the Corvette.

Of the only two professional reviews out there on it so far, Kal didn't even use NHT speakers in his, and Steven Guttenberg of HTM said less than flattering things about the Deq, therefore leaving my comments I recently dug back up on this thread about my experience with it on the ST4s, and John's (which are quoted in bold below) on his with it on the Fours from the NHT thread in the receiver/amp/processor section as the only comments on it at all that I'm aware of so far, and most people prolly wouldn't take mine and John's comments as being totally objective when it comes to NHT (also note in John's quote that Esa told John the exact same things about the Controller before he did Kal.

Here's a bit more data, but still somewhat general. NHT seems to feel that the specifics should be kept private for some reason, but Esa was kind enough to share this. Only slightly more illuminating than previous e-mails, but a few nuggets in there:


-DSP has 16 2nd order filter blocks reserved for NHT speaker correction
-Typically 2-3 filters are used per speaker depending on how much compensation is needed. The filter allocation is done dynamically depending on what speakers you have in the system.
-The processing is done using 48 bit arithmetic
-Crossover frequency is set automatically based on acoustical measurements on actual NHT speaker
-Crossover slope is set automatically based on acoustical measurements on actual NHT speaker
-Slight EQ is applied to some speaker models (mainly crossover region) for better matching to other NHT speaker models.
-Group delay between different speaker combinations is automatically compensated
-Phase/polarity is also adjusted on some speaker models

The main idea is to use DSP processing to make good sounding NHT speakers sound just a little bit better. We are not trying to do any heavy speaker EQ to correct every single notch and dip.


FWIW, I hooked the electronics up to my Four/Three/ThreeC in 5.0 and the bass seems to tighten and the midbass/sub crossover seems more coherent and flatter with more presence in that area. Gives it more snap and precision and doesn't make the Fours seems so bass heavy. Unfortunately, I also had to move the speakers, so some of it could be related to that but I suspect not nearly all of it.

Esa also said that the Controller has lots of processing overhead. That just means that there's more for hardware/software upgrades in the future.

Off topic FYI...

I just got a Marantz SA-11S1 CD player for my two channel system and the level of fidelity that is coming out of my 3.3's is astonishing now... I highly recommend anybody with a serious 2-channel system check this player out...

One thing that I always felt NHT had working against them was that they are generally paired with inferior electronics... people using receivers with your NHT's are really missing out on great sound. The new NHT amplifiers really seem like great products and the B&O ICE Power Modules they incorporate are apparently quite good. Hopefully there will be a trend towards pairing NHT speakers and electronics and more people will hear what good sound really is!

Upgrading amps had previously brought out new levels from the 3.3's...
My path was Aragon 4004 > BRYSTON 4B-ST > Mark Levinson 23.5 > BRYSTON 4B-SST... if you own 3.3's you MUST buy a BRYSTON 4B-SST... it is a match made in heaven!

I personally believe in putting most of the $$$ in the budget of any given system into the speakers. For instance, if I had a budget of $5000, I'd want to put $4999 of that into the speakers, and split the remaining dollar on the CD player and integrated amp. Unfortunately, there just aren't too many $.50 cent CD players and integrated amps on the store shelves. :o :( :mad:

But seriously, it just doesn't make sense to me to put more $$$ into the electronics than the speakers.

It's been my experience that amps of similar/comparable power impact the sound the least of anything in the signal path (unless you count wires and cable that is. :p ).

Speakers/room first, then source/pre-amp next. Power amps last, in that order. A good amp should amplify the signal it is fed, nothing more, nothing less, without adding or taking anything to or from it.

It sounds like you agree with at least some of this judging by how much of a difference a new source seemed to make to you.

Mark Russ yet another question on the receiver for the NHT's :o . I have just read that the CA 640R does not allow bi-amping. Is this a problem with the connection method you previously explained to me with the X2 and 2 A1's into the Classic 4's? Does this rule out this receiver for my purposes and require me to instead purchase e.g. the Arcam 280 or 350? I'm not too sure on this and also whether it is a "waste" of 2 amplifiers as I will not run 7.1. Thanks for the advice.
Roy

Adding a "Super Tweeter" to almost any speaker is going to make it a mess. If the original speaker has a really bad tweeter, it may make an improvement, but if not, the ST will make it much worse.

When you add a ST to an existing speaker, you are going to cross over the SA to the regular tweeter between 10 and 20kHz. This means that the wavelength at the crossover frequency is around 3/4". The vertical distance between the acoustic center of the SA and the regular tweeter is going to be 3"-6" minimum. This is multiple products of the wavelength involved. As John pointed out, this is going to result in massive comb filtering. The result will be that at one point in space, the response may be flat. Then 5 degrees above and below this, you will have an octave wide notch 10-20dB deep. 5 degrees above and below this, you will have two locations where the response is sort of flat, maybe. This pattern will keep repeating in the vertical direction. There will also be out of band (above 20kHz) notches in the frequency response occurring at various vertical angles.

As a general rule, you want to keep the ratio of distance between acoustic centers divided by the wavelength at the crossover frequency to be 1 or less. This more or less guarantees that the off axis response curves will be smooth and similarly shaped to the on axis curves over a wide area in space. For a 6.5" woofer this means a crossover frequency of about 2.3kHz or lower for a ratio of 1. In the above ST example, this ratio is between about 4 and 8. Really bad. I guarantee that adding the ST and the associated crossover will make the speaker sound very different, but this will have nothing to do with the "extended" high frequency response of the ST. It will be completely caused by the mutilated frequency and power response changes between 10 and 20kHz.

I agree that the AZs will make better surround speakers than the Twos. The smaller woofer has better dispersion up to and at the crossover frequency. This will make the speaker have flatter frequency response at all angles.

Roy,

For a complete description on how to biamp Fours with an X2, go to the NHT website into the support section. In there, you can download the X2 owner's manual.

I'm not sure if Mark addressed this or not, but he feels that the high pass outputs on the X2 neagtively affect the high frequencies going through it. That is why he recommends not using the HP output.

If you do biamp Fours with an X2 and use the HP outputs, I would not automatically set the LP control as high as possible and the HP control as low as possible. This is contrary to Mark's advice. If you need the correct starting point settings, let me know and I'll post them or send them to you.

Hi guys,

I found a good deal thru a friend for the NHT Classic Three's and a CLassic Three Center. My question to you guys what subwoofer would you recommend other than NHT? I was thinking like SVS, HSU, and Sunfire Super Jr. The room is 20x15 and keep it under $500.00 And I currently have Polks but was planning on moving them to the back for the 7.1 setup, they are also glossy black. If I decide to sell the Polks what would you recommend for the rear's Classic 2's or?
Thanks

Bump!!

Bump!!

Mostly music? http://www.madisound.com/nht1259subkit.html

Otherwise the biggest HSU I could afford.

Bump!!
For mostly music, I'd recommend the Tannoy TS-10 (http://www.tannoy.com/StudioSubOverview). It can be found for just about your price range, and is very musical (I've had it in my C3/C3c/AZ system for 2 weeks). It may not be powerful enough for your room, though, and I think you're doing yourself a disservice by limiting yourself to $500 with that system. Although I like the Tannoy, I purchased it for a friend (and "broke it in for her" :D ), thinking I might buy 2 for my 13 x 25' room (the HT is only in the front 15'), but I've decided to go with the U2 system--which I haven't yet ordered. Another option for you is to lurk on Audiogon or eBay until something comes up, but I still think that for that room size, quality sound in the quantity you'll need is going to cost you more than $500.

Peter

Hey there guy's, my theater room is finally finished, 14x19, and I have bought all my goodies except my speakers. I am looking for a 7.1 setup and been looking hard at the new classic line. I am looking at the classic 3 for fronts, 3c for center and the classic 2 for side and rear surrounds. I am fairly new to the NHT speakers. My first ever set up was cerwin vega's (had for three years) and then I jumped to the Polk's lsi's. My next step is possibly now the NHT's. I just want to make sure I"m getting a great system and upgrade from my last.
90% of my room is for movies and and I'm using a Pioneer Elie VSX-84, my side rears are up high and my rears and ear level. Also I forgot to mention above about the twelve as the sub. Anyway's I need some good advice on these speakers, in your expierence, will I be very HAPPY, or just satisfied?

ThanxRainman, your space is very similar to mine (although I bet you have ceilings taller than 7' 3"!). I couldn't pull the trigger for the 4's, and got the 3's, 3c, and, after MUCH listening, the Absolute Zero's over the 2's. I just liked the sound better, especially with the 3's. Although none of the Classic series are either "warm" or "bright", I thought the 2s were closer to bright than the 3s and AZs. But with the stands and subs, I'll end up spending almost as much for my 3's as I would have for 4's, an X2, and an amp (but will probably have a better sub system).

I agree with other's recommendations that you can do better than the Classic 12 as the sub. I brought one home to listen, and just wasn't impressed (the Tannoy 10, much smaller and less expensive, blew it away.

Finally, if you're mounting the AZ's, you need the OmniMount 20.0, not the 10.0 that some of the included manuals still state. Ask me know I know (HEY, JACK - I'M STILL WAITING... :D ).

Peter

Mostly music? http://www.madisound.com/nht1259subkit.html

Otherwise the biggest HSU I could afford.

Sorry about that forgot my specs. ;)

Yamaha RX-V2700
SP3 60 GB
Oppo 981 HD
Polk 7600 system for surround sides and rear
Polk PWS 650 sub (2) 10' woofers (Currently broken :mad: )
Sharp Aquos 52'
Room 20x15
Listening 65% HT & 35% music and not to mention hooked up to pc for sound too

Peter,

I was out of the office for most of two weeks. The shirt shipped last week. I'll PM you the tracking number later today.

Thanks for your patience

Rainman, your space is very similar to mine (although I bet you have ceilings taller than 7' 3"!). I couldn't pull the trigger for the 4's, and got the 3's, 3c, and, after MUCH listening, the Absolute Zero's over the 2's. I just liked the sound better, especially with the 3's. Although none of the Classic series are either "warm" or "bright", I thought the 2s were closer to bright than the 3s and AZs. But with the stands and subs, I'll end up spending almost as much for my 3's as I would have for 4's, an X2, and an amp (but will probably have a better sub system).

I agree with other's recommendations that you can do better than the Classic 12 as the sub. I brought one home to listen, and just wasn't impressed (the Tannoy 10, much smaller and less expensive, blew it away.

Finally, if you're mounting the AZ's, you need the OmniMount 20.0, not the 10.0 that some of the included manuals still state. Ask me know I know (HEY, JACK - I'M STILL WAITING... :D ).

Peter
Good to here Peter, so I am just wondering what you think of the speakers?
I will be using them for strictly HT, so do you have any imput on them?

Adding a "Super Tweeter" to almost any speaker is going to make it a mess. If the original speaker has a really bad tweeter, it may make an improvement, but if not, the ST will make it much worse.

Thanks Jack (and John), I knew it was too good to be true. Oh well, I love the sound of my M6's as is anyway.

Jack,
I tried your advice to get the 3C and SVS sub to integrate better and the sound is much more solid now! It sounds as good as with the Threes alone, but with more bass (I set the sub to reference and then add a little more :D ). Didn't realize how important setting the distance was for the sub. I still plan on getting the Controller, but may wait until it comes with HDMI 1.3 so I won't have to rip out all that cabling twice.

Thanks again!

Randy

When you go to buy a new Corvette, Chevrolet isn't going to tell you what algorithm they are using to trim the a/f ratio. It is their proprietary information, plus it doesn't matter. You either like the way the engine runs or you don't. A 'Corvette' take from an F1 fan...can we go with Ferrari please? :rolleyes:

Mark Russ yet another question on the receiver for the NHT's :o . I have just read that the CA 640R does not allow bi-amping. Is this a problem with the connection method you previously explained to me with the X2 and 2 A1's into the Classic 4's? Does this rule out this receiver for my purposes and require me to instead purchase e.g. the Arcam 280 or 350? I'm not too sure on this and also whether it is a "waste" of 2 amplifiers as I will not run 7.1. Thanks for the advice.
Roy

No Roy, while you might not have the ability to bi-amp with the receiver itself with 2 unused channels such as some AVRs allow, all you really need with any AVR to bi-amp with the X2 is a set of L/R pre-outs, and a suitable monoblock or two (or even a 2 channel power amp, such as a NAD C270 for example).

Technically, I don't see why you couldn't even do it with just a sub out, like method 3 on the X1 with Evos, but the only thing is, you couldn't have stereo bass going that route.

Roy,

For a complete description on how to biamp Fours with an X2, go to the NHT website into the support section. In there, you can download the X2 owner's manual.

I'm not sure if Mark addressed this or not, but he feels that the high pass outputs on the X2 neagtively affect the high frequencies going through it. That is why he recommends not using the HP output.

If you do biamp Fours with an X2 and use the HP outputs, I would not automatically set the LP control as high as possible and the HP control as low as possible. This is contrary to Mark's advice. If you need the correct starting point settings, let me know and I'll post them or send them to you.

OK Jack, I have to ask, - why would you want the X2's crossovers, even just the low pass, also "in play" too at the exact same time when the Four already has it's own fixed internal high and low pass crossovers with a 12 db slope at 125 Hz (that is, unless you went in and physically disabled it)?

What possible benefit would there be to any double filtering going on? :confused:

I looked at what the X2's manual said. Since the Four's lowest rated frequency limit is given as 27 Hz, in this particular case I could see setting the high pass filter to 50 Hz (if you were to use the X2's high pass outs) since that is as low as it will go anyway, but according to the manual, then you would then also start off setting the X2's low pass at 50 Hz as well too, and then fine tune it by ear until "the blend between the sub and the mains is seamless and the sub does not call attention to itself". Well, in this case, what about the big gap that we already know right off the bat that will exist from between 50 Hz to 125 Hz for the subs on the Fours?

Theoretically, in the case of the Fours, just so long as the X2's high pass was below 125 Hz and the low pass above 125 Hz it should be OK, but I'd just feel better about it if they were as far away as possible. While I realize that is just a very vague, generic rule of thumb for a basic starting point given in the X2's manual for a wide variety of speakers it could be used with (both towers and sub/sat combos), and I also realize that regardless of slope, any crossover is not exactly a "brick wall" filter, but still .... :confused:

Also, how would you recommend calibrating the high and low pass filters of an X2 with Fours as a basic starting point if not exactly like the X2's manual states?

I'm kind of curious what Jack would do to an NHT Three or Four "Special Edition" if the retail could be up to double the cost. Would we get 4th order crossovers? Higher grade crossovers? A Be midrange or tweeter? Or is there just no good way to make the speakers better for less than double?

I'm *really* curious what a 2" Be midrange would add to the price.

Also kinda curious if a 5" driver in the Three wouldn't offer better over all performance for that size of cabinet, at the expensive of bass response. To me, the Three/Four is *so* good, that it almost bothers me that it isn't taken to the next level where it's as good as *anything*.

My guess is, powered subs, DSP, digital amps included, ... oh wait, this already sounds sort of familiar. ;) :D :p :cool:

Seriously though, I would like to see a Four with dual, opposite 10" self powered subs (like the Xd, or even the W1), maybe even DSP correction too.

Maybe. I'm just curious though how good the speakers could be with the same exact cabinet and driver size configuration. To me, the bass on the Three is just a smidge too much and the treble a smidge laid back and there's a few driver resonances that might be able to be cleaned up further. I'm imaging for the mass audience, it had to be that way, but I'd just like to see a purist audiophile version, no holds barred, cost almost no object. I guess kind of like the Vivid Audio models, just not $13,000-$20,0000/pr.

M -80XD/S-80XD? :D :eek:

As for the bass in Threes, have any of your clients crossed them over at 125 Hz with a U2 or dual W1 sets close by each monitor (say within a foot or two), and if so, how was it?

I bet this would be significantly better than the Fours. ;) :cool: :)