Hello Folks,

Now you have me thinking with all this talk about impedance. I have Classic 4's bi-amped using 6 ohms as the impedance (since the manual says they are 6 ohms) and have the crossover to the sub set at 60 Hz.
Is this okay or do I have to change things for optimum performance?

Thanks

Hello Folks,

Now you have me thinking with all this talk about impedance. I have Classic 4's bi-amped using 6 ohms as the impedance (since the manual says they are 6 ohms) and have the crossover to the sub set at 60 Hz.
Is this okay or do I have to change things for optimum performance?

Thanks

Like with an X-2?

I love my U1 but to be fair I've never heard any of the subs from the big names. Only other decent subs I've used have been NHT ported models, the SW12 and the SW1P. But the U1 has several nice features to recommend it, including the opposing woofers which minimizes cabinet vibrations, the flexibility of the X1 for bass management, and the fact that it is an acoustic suspension design.
Well, it's going to be awhile before I'm in the market for a new sub. Perhaps a well cared for U1 will show up somewhere in the future that needs a new home and I'll be able to rescue it. :)

Like with an X-2?

I WISH :D

No, I have a Yamaha RX-V1700.

So how are you crossing over?

If you're using the bass management on your receiver, the speaker impedence doesn't matter.

This is good news for me. I plan to bi-amp my Classic 4s with an Onkyo 805 and a Crown XLS402D. I expect the Onkyo will provide >130 watts to the high frequency drivers and the Crown will provide ~375 watts to the low frequency drivers.

I hope that will be enough for my 1600 cubic foot room! (10'x20'x8')

Thanks,

Just make sure there is some sort of gain control to match the amps' output since the odds of them just happen to having the same gain is astronomical.

I take it the Crown has a gain adjustment?

and yes, that should be enough for that size room. ;)

I sat down and played with my m5's and m6's in 2 channel. After some back and forth with the speakers I feel the M5 does have some details that the m6 just didn't pick up. In fact what I keep saying was the m5 was not holding the sound together and would break up some. Playing with the 5s and 6s I think my problem with the m5 as LCR was I didn't try the boundary switch for the center channel. This may have been my problem because the center is what I thought was giving up. Its no big deal though I have my m6 for lcr and the m5 for surrounds and I like the way they sound. But I will say, I could see how a set of m5 with a set of u1 would be killer for music.
Allen

Allen, you ought to pick up some L5s for surrounds and then use those M5s in a 2 channel rig with a W1 (or better yet, two W1s). :D

I'd bet you'd never listen to the 2.9s much anymore after that. ;)

Sweet. :D Since the xD is out of my price range right now. Do you think the U1 is a good sub compared to the other offerings out there in the market? There are a lot of different subwoofer choices. I know this has been discussed here before. I heard a Velodyne sub I believe it was the MiniVee. It sounded pretty good to my ears. I wasn't there to demo subwoofers so I didn't ask about it but I put it in the back of my mind to remember to look at later on. It was tiny and it sounded very musical to me.

You would probably need two of them though. I don't know. Like I said I wasn't there to listen to the sub so I didn't really check it out.

The only thing that may have been somewhat lacking from a dual W1 set up was true 20 Hz extension for movies, and now even that has been solved with the X1 mod.

If you have to use corner placement though, U2s would be a better option. W1s need to "breath" because of their opposite firing drivers. They can go along a single wall, but kind of need to be out of a corner, whereas the W2s are right at home in a corner.

Well, it's going to be awhile before I'm in the market for a new sub. Perhaps a well cared for U1 will show up somewhere in the future that needs a new home and I'll be able to rescue it. :)

Or better yet, two of them! :eek:

I WISH :D

No, I have a Yamaha RX-V1700.

When you say you are crossing over at 60 Hz, do you mean you have a sub in addition to the Fours which are bi-amped with 4 channels of your AVR?

For an integrated amp with true pre-outs and pre-ins like on virtually all NAD models, or a separate pre-amp/power amp combo, at least 50 watts per channel, and preferably with an HT by-pass option for M5s high passed at 80 Hz.

These requirements eliminate all Cambridge Audio units except their top of the line model. The NAD C325BEE/C352/C372 are all contenders, but are there any off the wall brands I might not be thinking of?

The Rega Mira is another possibility. Has anyone ever heard this amp? If so, is it worth the price difference over a NAD C325BEE?

Thanks in advance.

When you say you are crossing over at 60 Hz, do you mean you have a sub in addition to the Fours which are bi-amped with 4 channels of your AVR?

YES, That's it. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

YES, That's it. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

Then you should be OK, but why not drop the crossover down to 40 Hz and try that if it will go that low on the Yammy? ;)

Then you should be OK, but why not drop the crossover down to 40 Hz and try that if it will go that low on the Yammy? ;)

Thanks, I'll give that a shot and see how it does.
Initiallly, I had it at 80 Hz, then tried 60 Hz and it seems to sound better but didn't want to go lower than 60 Hz for fear of overstressing the woofers of the Fours. Is this an unwarranted fear for these speakers?

Is this an unwarranted fear for these speakers?

Yes, while nothing is indestructible, NHTs are usually about as bullet proof as it gets, within reason of course. :cool:

Yes, while nothing is indestructible, NHTs are usually about as bullet proof as it gets, within reason of course. :cool:

Thanks for your insight. I enjoy these speakers immensely and WILL try my best to be reasonable in their use :)

Well, it's going to be awhile before I'm in the market for a new sub. Perhaps a well cared for U1 will show up somewhere in the future that needs a new home and I'll be able to rescue it. :)

Maybe that'll be the same somewhere in the future that I'm looking for a new home for a well-cared-for U1 displaced by a set of Xds!

Xd in '09, baby! That is my goal. Unless the Xd mk. II is out by then...

Unless the Xd mk. II is out by then...

Don't even joke about that. I need at least another 3 years to prepare for another big speaker purchase. :D

I have never listened to the Xd. I want to hear what it sounds like but on the other hand I don't. If it's as great as everyone says, I'll want it. I think I better avoid listening for now. :D That won't be too hard because I don't know anyone that owns the Xd setup in my area and there are no stores around here that sell NHT. I found that out the hard way when looking for my M5s.

Well, turns out my deal too good to be true turned out to not be and I am left without the Classic Fours I was hoping to get at a great price.

Based on what I have read here, I think I will forgo the Classic series altogether and try out some M6's now that I have the opportunity.

Bad thing is that I acquired a Classic 3C while waiting for the fours, which I assume does not mate very well with the M6's. Now, I'll need to unload that.... :(

Anyway, in case anyone in the Chicagoland area is interested, to raise money for three M6's I am selling my 2.5i/AudioCenter 1 setup over on the AVSforum marketplace. LINK (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=845799)

Mr. Foo,

If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is. :rolleyes:

Hello Folks,

Now you have me thinking with all this talk about impedance. I have Classic 4's bi-amped using 6 ohms as the impedance (since the manual says they are 6 ohms) and have the crossover to the sub set at 60 Hz.
Is this okay or do I have to change things for optimum performance?

Thanks

You do NOT want to set your 1700 for 6 ohm. There was a post about this and the additional stress it places on the electronics. I'll try to find it and re-post it.

Thanks for your insight. I enjoy these speakers immensely and WILL try my best to be reasonable in their use :)

I just noticed where someone cautioned you against using your Yammy AVR with 6 Ohm speakers. I don't know about that, but this much I can tell you, my local NHT dealer is also a Revel dealer, and he tries to push Revel over NHT every chance he gets, but even he admitted that you can push NHT "harder" than Revel.

He also said a lot more Revels come back with problems than NHTs do, and that NHT will usually always make good on it no matter what whenever something does come back, whereas Revel will usually try to deny a claim. FWIW.

Don't even joke about that. I need at least another 3 years to prepare for another big speaker purchase. :D

I'll bet that the next generation Xd will prolly have to be less expensive if line is to continue.

Well, turns out my deal too good to be true turned out to not be and I am left without the Classic Fours I was hoping to get at a great price.

Based on what I have read here, I think I will forgo the Classic series altogether and try out some M6's now that I have the opportunity.

Bad thing is that I acquired a Classic 3C while waiting for the fours, which I assume does mate very well with the M6's. Now, I'll need to unload that.... :(

Anyway, in case anyone in the Chicagoland area is interested, to raise money for three M6's I am selling my 2.5i/AudioCenter 1 setup over on the AVSforum marketplace. LINK (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=844906)

Just think, if you didn't get the Anthem pre-pro, you could actually get Xds instead for about the same $$$! :p

Xd in '09, baby! That is my goal. Unless the Xd mk. II is out by then...

And a most noble goal it is young grasshopper! :D

And a most noble goal it is young grasshopper! :D

Grasshopper! Who is more diminished? You for choosing NHT's or the other guy who bought the Revels? :p

I'll bet that the next generation Xd will prolly have to be less expensive if line is to continue.

I'm still convinced they're a bargain at that price, considering they include amplification. But apparently few others are.

I ordered these about 1 month ago; just picked them up from the dealer. The date code on the boxes is 9/10/2006; so, I do not know why it took so long. I mean the dealer is only 1 hour away from NHT headquarters.

There are 5 1" long scratches on top of one speaker just above the tweeter. Ouch. Also, the binding posts are not gold plated?

But...but...how do they sound?
All I can say is:

"Damn Jack!"

The sound is so clean. Almost spotless. The bass needs to be tightned up a little. I believe my current amp is simply not worthy.

Oh yeah, scratches or no scratches I am not giving these babies up.

Congrats Mitch, might try a little car wax on the scratches.

Scratches? I wouldn't settle for that. I would contact your dealer and have them get you another one. It shouldn't be scratched right out of the box. I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem to get it replaced.

Wax might take them out though. I hadn't thought of that.

Hello Mark & Wraber,
I'll be interested on the information about the Yamaha RX-V1700 getting stressed on a 6 ohm speaker setting.

FWIW, I have been using the 6 ohm setting on the 1700 for about a week now since I just got this receiver. My Classic Fours are used by the family for at least 10 hours/day for 70% music and the rest for movies, TV and video games. These speakers were previously driven by a 7 year old JVC RX 6008V 5.1 avr which was a HTIB package and did NOT even get hot or go into "overload" :eek: :eek: How's that for total family enjoyment of acquired toys :)

If the Yammy runs into problems with these speakers I would probably consider them as junk compared to the JVC which has served me a VERY long time; so far it has been great and has an abundance of features and power.

BTW, I went back to using the 60 Hz crossover for the subwoofer after trying it out back and forth all day today (used for music), since the 40 Hz setting was making the Classic Fours do all the work.... figured that I oughta spread the workload and possibly improve longevity. I couldn't tell the difference in SQ using either settings and only got to discover that the subwoofer was NOT doing any work at 40 when I put my hand and then my head against it :o

Thanks.

I'm still convinced they're a bargain at that price, considering they include amplification. But apparently few others are.

Oh yeah, let's face it, their retail price, $6K, is a lot of money, but you also get a lot for that money too.

I just don't understand it, some people will put actually put more money, a lot more, into electronics (pre-pros that will be obsolete anyway in 2 or 3 years and/or power amps) than the speakers themselves, or constantly upgrade to the "latest, greatest" new subwoofer (which literally changes on a seemingly week by week basis), or even my personal favorite of spending a lot of $$$ on wires and cables (true story, but someone I used to work with bought an Onkyo HTIB from CC, then turned around and actually spent more $$$ on various Monster Cables for it than the whole HTIB itself cost in the first place). :rolleyes:

If anyone hears Pink Floyd's "The Wall", or the "new" Beatles' "Love" on Xds, then the light bulb will finally come on. :)

The bass needs to be tightned up a little.

Congrats!

You know, an X2 retails for like $350, you already have the Crown to use as a sub amp, and an X2 will definitely help you make an obvious, noticeable difference at "tightening up the bass a little" on the Fours.

Let's not kid ourselves here, adding an X2 and A1s to a pair of Fours' ported subs will not suddenly make their bass performance the equal of T5s' (or any Evolution sub for that matter) on music, but it definitely helps to close the gap between them somewhat.

Hello Mark & Wraber,
I'll be interested on the information about the Yamaha RX-V1700 getting stressed on a 6 ohm speaker setting.

FWIW, I have been using the 6 ohm setting on the 1700 for about a week now since I just got this receiver. My Classic Fours are used by the family for at least 10 hours/day for 70% music and the rest for movies, TV and video games. These speakers were previously driven by a 7 year old JVC RX 6008V 5.1 avr which was a HTIB package and did NOT even get hot or go into "overload" :eek: :eek: How's that for total family enjoyment of acquired toys :)

If the Yammy runs into problems with these speakers I would probably consider them as junk compared to the JVC which has served me a VERY long time; so far it has been great and has an abundance of features and power.

BTW, I went back to using the 60 Hz crossover for the subwoofer after trying it out back and forth all day today (used for music), since the 40 Hz setting was making the Classic Fours do all the work.... figured that I oughta spread the workload and possibly improve longevity. I couldn't tell the difference in SQ using either settings and only got to discover that the subwoofer was NOT doing any work at 40 when I put my hand and then my head against it :o

Thanks.

This will prolly be like the 3rd of 4th time now I've posted this over the course of this long thread, but just in case you missed it before, FWIW, you might want to take a look at what Jack said about adding a sub to Fours here:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/1206nht34/index6.html

"Regarding comments made about low-end output, NHT recommends a couple different options if users want to extend bass output or extension.

If listeners want more bass output or control, do what Michael did, bi-amplify the towers with the X2 crossover and two A1 power amplifiers. This will give them more control of the bass as well as more output capability by increasing the amplifier power available to drive the 10" subwoofers over that of what a typical receiver can supply.

However, if even more bass extension is desired, it is necessary to use a subwoofer with bass response below 20Hz and very high output capability. This subwoofer should be low-passed around 40-50Hz, with the Four high-passed around the same frequency. This will probably require an active crossover with phase adjustment such as the X2, since the adjustments found in most surround processors will not be adequate to properly integrate the Four with the subwoofer. Ideally, end-users should use an acoustic measurement device too, provided they know how to use it properly.

We don't recommend using the Classic Fours with an external subwoofer covering the same frequency range. At some frequencies, the output from the external subwoofer(s) will add to that of the Fours and at some frequencies it will cancel the output from the Fours. The results will be worse than having no external subwoofer at all."

"However, if even more bass extension is desired, it is necessary to use a subwoofer with bass response below 20Hz and very high output capability. This subwoofer should be low-passed around 40-50Hz, with the Four high-passed around the same frequency. This will probably require an active crossover with phase adjustment such as the X2, since the adjustments found in most surround processors will not be adequate to properly integrate the Four with the subwoofer. Ideally, end-users should use an acoustic measurement device too, provided they know how to use it properly. "

That sounds like what he's doing, running them with a sub crossed over low. Though he apparently decided on 60 Hz instead of 40 Hz. If the 60 is outdoing the 40, it may be the amplifier can't drive the Four's subs enough?

BTW, I went back to using the 60 Hz crossover for the subwoofer after trying it out back and forth all day today (used for music), since the 40 Hz setting was making the Classic Fours do all the work.... figured that I oughta spread the workload and possibly improve longevity. I couldn't tell the difference in SQ using either settings and only got to discover that the subwoofer was NOT doing any work at 40 when I put my hand and then my head against it :o

Thanks.


That's because there is very little audio content from most musical material at 40 Hz and below. You don't even need to use the subwoofer for music if you use the Fours. Run the speakers in analog direct or the two channel mode (AKA large) if you like 2 channel playback.

By the way, there is nothing wrong with letting the Fours do all of the work. That is one of the reasons that you buy full range speakers in the first place.

Mark, Thanks for posting that information. This thread has gotten so long that I totally forgot about that bit of information; oldtimers disease has set in me :)

Matt, There was little to no difference in my "tin" ears between the 40 & 60 Hz sub crossovers that I was using so I decided to move it back to 60 so as to relieve some of the load from the Four's. IMHO the 1700 was driving the speakers adequately since I could not tell the difference in the quality of the bass output between the 2 settings. I only discovered that the sub was not doing any work or very little when I put my hand and then my head against it.

JPC, You are absolutely right on very little material at 40 Hz & below. It took the 1812 Overture for me to confirm that the subwoofer was actually working at 40 Hz. The Four's are run as large with the subwoofer (the Yammy recognized this on it's audio setup so I didn't have to change this setting manually) and I do use either the "straight or pure direct" setting when sitting in the normal listening position; however when I am roaming around the house, I use the Yamaha's 7 channel enhanced mode which uses The subwoofer, Four's, Classic Three C and surround Three C's....I think it sounds phenomenal when not in the normal listening position :D

Allen, you ought to pick up some L5s for surrounds and then use those M5s in a 2 channel rig with a W1 (or better yet, two W1s). :D

I'd bet you'd never listen to the 2.9s much anymore after that. ;)

Mark I was thinking the same thing about the m5 over the 2.9. The L5 wont work for me I have to have stand mount speakers with the room I am in.
Allen

Actually, I found it sold separately at one of the NHT "authorized" web sites...you may want to check - one call...So, it might be an option...

Didn't notice this post until searching today, only a couple months old, so what the hey.

I've been searching around their site, I see the subwoofer sold separately, but not the v-large. Any hints on how to find it? Do I need to call ?

I ordered these about 1 month ago; just picked them up from the dealer...The sound is so clean. Almost spotless. The bass needs to be tightned up a little. I believe my current amp is simply not worthy.

Oh yeah, scratches or no scratches I am not giving these babies up.

First of all, if you just picked them up, run them for 48 hours and then post what you think of them--NHT speakers have a significant break-in period and my 3s and a pair of 2s I demo'd both sounded very different (and very much better) after a couple of days playing continuously.

Also, if I bought a pair of $1800 speakers, I'd want them PERFECT. I agree with the others that you should contact your dealer.

Peter

Well, I finally got to hear the power of my U2s last night (and I haven't had the X1 20 Hz mod yet). I've been listening mostly to music, and some occasional TV or chick flicks, but last night I watched X-men 3. Our HT is in the basement, with 3 concrete walls, and open in the back to a larger area with stairs going upstairs. The ceiling is QuietRock (their middle-level), but there is that stairway up. My son was 2 flights up, in his carpeted room with the door closed. The kitchen is on the opposite end of the house, not over basement but on slab. Well, my son came down to tell me that he could clearly feel the LFE in his room and in the kitchen!. I didn't think I was listening that loud. What did you say? What? :D

Peter

First of all, if you just picked them up, run them for 48 hours and then post what you think of them--NHT speakers have a significant break-in period and my 3s and a pair of 2s I demo'd both sounded very different (and very much better) after a couple of days playing continuously.

Hmmmm, I wonder what Jack would say ;)

Hmmmm, I wonder what Jack would say ;)


"Break in period?" "We don't need no skinkin' Break in Period." :p

"Break in period?" "We don't need no skinkin' Break in Period." :p

Seconded (thirded?).

1. Attach speakers to receiver (or amp).
2. Turn on receiver (or amp).
3. Play a CD, count to 10.
Congratulations!! Speakers are now broken in. However, ears, whether old or new sometimes require a break in period of 48 hours or so.

I haven't tried one, but I don't think the Krell is but half the amp the NAD Masters M3 is for $300 more. I'd also pick a YBA Integre or a even the Controller/Power2 for an extra $1000. On a budget, I'd take a less expensive Rotel or NAD or Musical Fidelity. Nothing *wrong* with the Krell per se, but it's really "Krell Lite" and is just there to hit all those people that always wished they could own a Krell rather than really be *the* machine in that range.

Yeah, but the Krell's are such a bargain used at 1400 bucks and easy to resell if you don't like them. I hated the 300i and 300il but i hear the 400xi is much, muich better and not a typical bright Krell sound. What about the new Onkyo Integrated 9555 some are raving about?

After 100-150 hours these 4s really impress me---this coming from a guy who had Wilsons in a previous life :) I do think they sound better after 50-100 hours---treble seemed a bit metallic and has settled down.

btw, my alternative is to keep my Nuforce Ref 9 mono amps (which are an absolute bargain) and buy a Modwright preamp. I think tubes would be good for the system

Well, I'd do the used Krell over an Onkyo because an Onkyo will have almost zero resale! But new? Hands down, the NAD.

After 100-150 hours these 4s really impress me---this coming from a guy who had Wilsons in a previous life I do think they sound better after 50-100 hours---treble seemed a bit metallic and has settled down.

I previously had Paradigm Sigs and ended up selling them because I couldn't get the center channel speaker (the C3) to integrate properly with my S4's. I now have 6 Classic Threes and a Classic 3C. The center channel problem has been eliminated. The NHT's are seriously great speakers. Note - I didn't include the usual catch phrase, "for the price." NHT's measure accurately and sound that way as well. What NHT doesn't do well is marketing their products.

Hello Mark & Wraber,
I'll be interested on the information about the Yamaha RX-V1700 getting stressed on a 6 ohm speaker setting.

FWIW, I have been using the 6 ohm setting on the 1700 for about a week now since I just got this receiver. My Classic Fours are used by the family for at least 10 hours/day for 70% music and the rest for movies, TV and video games. These speakers were previously driven by a 7 year old JVC RX 6008V 5.1 avr which was a HTIB package and did NOT even get hot or go into "overload" :eek: :eek: How's that for total family enjoyment of acquired toys :)

If the Yammy runs into problems with these speakers I would probably consider them as junk compared to the JVC which has served me a VERY long time; so far it has been great and has an abundance of features and power.

BTW, I went back to using the 60 Hz crossover for the subwoofer after trying it out back and forth all day today (used for music), since the 40 Hz setting was making the Classic Fours do all the work.... figured that I oughta spread the workload and possibly improve longevity. I couldn't tell the difference in SQ using either settings and only got to discover that the subwoofer was NOT doing any work at 40 when I put my hand and then my head against it :o

Thanks.


I'm not saying that the RX-V1700 won't work well with 6 ohm speakers ( I have C4's and 2.9's w/ a 1700 and 1400 respectively..although I have a seperate amp now for the C4's) I am saying that despite the impedance of the speakers, you should set it to 8 ohms. Go over the the 2700/1700 thread and spend some time. There are a bunch of threads that speak to this.

I'm not saying that the RX-V1700 won't work well with 6 ohm speakers ( I have C4's and 2.9's w/ a 1700 and 1400 respectively..although I have a seperate amp now for the C4's) I am saying that despite the impedance of the speakers, you should set it to 8 ohms. Go over the the 2700/1700 thread and spend some time. There are a bunch of threads that speak to this.

Hello Wrager, Thanks for the heads-up. I did some searching and found that 2700/1700 thread and it seems to me that the problems mentioned (mostly 2700's) were heat related (poor ventilation). I will monitor my receiver although it has lot's of space for heat to become an issue.

That sounds like what he's doing, running them with a sub crossed over low. Though he apparently decided on 60 Hz instead of 40 Hz. If the 60 is outdoing the 40, it may be the amplifier can't drive the Four's subs enough?

He's doing the second sentence in that one paragraph, but that's all. He may also be doing the first sentence too though, depending on what sub he has. :p

Judging from Mike's (pupton) sweeps of the Fours he posted a while back, HTM's and Ultimate AV's (Stereophile) measurements of them clearly showing typical ported sub tendencies, and my own personal experience with my pair of them, and as much as I do like the Fours, I still think that if one wants to go Classic Series, for either movies or music (but especially for music), they are better off with Threes and Evolution subs, especially if they are going to add an X2/A1s to the mix anyway.

As always, YMMV. :)

That's because there is very little audio content from most musical material at 40 Hz and below. You don't even need to use the subwoofer for music if you use the Fours. Run the speakers in analog direct or the two channel mode (AKA large) if you like 2 channel playback.

By the way, there is nothing wrong with letting the Fours do all of the work. That is one of the reasons that you buy full range speakers in the first place.

I couldn't agree more with J_P_C! :eek:

What's the world coming too? :o

Well, I finally got to hear the power of my U2s last night (and I haven't had the X1 20 Hz mod yet). I've been listening mostly to music, and some occasional TV or chick flicks, but last night I watched X-men 3. Our HT is in the basement, with 3 concrete walls, and open in the back to a larger area with stairs going upstairs. The ceiling is QuietRock (their middle-level), but there is that stairway up. My son was 2 flights up, in his carpeted room with the door closed. The kitchen is on the opposite end of the house, not over basement but on slab. Well, my son came down to tell me that he could clearly feel the LFE in his room and in the kitchen!. I didn't think I was listening that loud. What did you say? What? :D

Peter

What are you powering them with, you didn't have the A1 yet did you?

Hmmmm, I wonder what Jack would say ;)

Speaking of Jack, where is he? :confused:

Yeah, but the Krell's are such a bargain used at 1400 bucks and easy to resell if you don't like them. I hated the 300i and 300il but i hear the 400xi is much, muich better and not a typical bright Krell sound. What about the new Onkyo Integrated 9555 some are raving about?

After 100-150 hours these 4s really impress me---this coming from a guy who had Wilsons in a previous life :) I do think they sound better after 50-100 hours---treble seemed a bit metallic and has settled down.

I may be mistaken, but I don't think that Onkyo has pre-outs if you ever wanted to bi-amp.

Again, for about $1400, you could get a new X2 and dual A1s to bi-amp them with, along with a new NAD C325BEE integrated to power the upper drivers over 125 Hz, and I guarantee you this would outperform a Krell 400 on a pair of Fours. ;) :cool:

After 100-150 hours these 4s really impress me---this coming from a guy who had Wilsons in a previous life I do think they sound better after 50-100 hours---treble seemed a bit metallic and has settled down.

I previously had Paradigm Sigs and ended up selling them because I couldn't get the center channel speaker (the C3) to integrate properly with my S4's. I now have 6 Classic Threes and a Classic 3C. The center channel problem has been eliminated. The NHT's are seriously great speakers. Note - I didn't include the usual catch phrase, "for the price." NHT's measure accurately and sound that way as well. What NHT doesn't do well is marketing their products.

Speaking of the Fours measurements and "metallic" treble, here's what Thomas Norton said after measuring the Fours about Michael Fremer's observations: :D

"Fig.1: NHT Classic Four, pseudo-anechoic response off the horizontal axis at 45° (red) and 60° (blue).

This ±15° averaged front horizontal response is exceptionally smooth and extended. While nothing here suggests the cool upper bass/lower midrange that MF experienced, room/placement effects could be the most obvious culprits."

from:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/1206nht34/index5.html

I'm not saying that the RX-V1700 won't work well with 6 ohm speakers ( I have C4's and 2.9's w/ a 1700 and 1400 respectively..although I have a seperate amp now for the C4's) I am saying that despite the impedance of the speakers, you should set it to 8 ohms. Go over the the 2700/1700 thread and spend some time. There are a bunch of threads that speak to this.


Hello Wrager, Thanks for the heads-up. I did some searching and found that 2700/1700 thread and it seems to me that the problems mentioned (mostly 2700's) were heat related (poor ventilation). I will monitor my receiver although it has lot's of space for heat to become an issue.

FWIW: :cool:

"The impedance of the Classic Four indicates a ported enclosure tuned to approximately 27Hz, with a minimum impedance of 5.2Ω at 143Hz. Its nominal specified impedance of 8Ω matched our measurements. The speaker's sensitivity is approximately 87dB/2.83V/m. It should be an easy load for any reasonably well-designed amplifier or AV receiver."

Also from:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/1206nht34/index5.html

BTW, I picked up the re-mastered David Lee Roth era Van Halen CDs in HCCD and have been listening to them. :cool:

These are great recordings/remixes that really sound good, and if you have a HCCD player like a NAD C542, so much the better. :)

You should just hear Eddie's solo from "Hear About It Later" on M5/T5s or Threes/Fours. ;)

"But hear me now, somebody said "Fair Warning, Lord !"
(This is Meanstreet) Lord, strike that poor boy down" :eek:

BTW, I picked up the re-mastered David Lee Roth era Van Halen CDs in HCCD and have been listening to them. :cool:

These are great recordings/remixes that really sound good, and if you have a HCCD player like a NAD C542, so much the better. :)

You should just hear Eddie's solo from "Hear About It Later" on M5/T5s or Threes/Fours. ;)

"But hear me now, somebody said "Fair Warning, Lord !"
(This is Meanstreet) Lord, strike that poor boy down" :eek: Any fan knows the only real Van Halen is the David Lee Roth Van Halen. :)

If I remember correctly, Michael Fremer has a preference for tubes, which would explain his use of the terms "cool" and "metallic" - tubes tending to be on the "warm" side of neutral.

**snip** What NHT doesn't do well is marketing their products.

I'm not sure that is a terrible thing...



Speaking of Jack, where is he? :confused:

Marketing 101? *shiver*

I'm offering full re-imbursement for any marketing classes that NHT employees would like to take :)

That bad thing about not doing good marketing is you're getting killed in the ether by companies that are half as good and twice the price and that is before people even hear or see them for the first time. I have to work well uphill to sell the amounts I do. It ain't easy being an NHT dealer in a marketplace that views them as the "VW" of speakers instead of the "Porsche/Audi" of speakers. I think most dealers go with the easy sell, which is......whatever brand the customer recognizes or is predisposed to buy when they walk in the door.

I actually have to explain why NHT Fours don't sound anything at all like other $2000/pr speakers and why they're not "lacking" stuff. Of course, as I started to tell one guy why they sound more like $10,000/pr speakers than $2000/pr speakers, he said "you don't have to tell me, I've been around the whole city!!!" That made my day at least :)

Interesting discussion on marketing or lack thereof by NHT.

I wanted a new speaker system for my HT a few months ago and did my research by reading every review that the internet and library could provide; then demo'ed every system in my price range within 120 miles of my residence. The interesting thing is that the demo sessions revealed a lot more than just speakers, it really separated the dealers who were just SELLING from the ones who were passionate on what they did.

The NHT dealer (also sold other lines) that I run into seemed very passionate and knowlegeable about this insanity and after talking to me about what I was trying to accomplish; recommended my current system. He was so confident about these speakers that he offerred to deliver them (200+ mile roundtrip drive), set them up, compare them against any speaker system up to 2X the price for 2 weeks, and if they were not what I wanted; he'd take 'em back and only run my credit card after the 2 week trial. I took the offer and the rest is history.

I'm offering full re-imbursement for any marketing classes that NHT employees would like to take :)

That bad thing about not doing good marketing is you're getting killed in the ether by companies that are half as good and twice the price and that is before people even hear or see them for the first time. I have to work well uphill to sell the amounts I do. It ain't easy being an NHT dealer in a marketplace that views them as the "VW" of speakers instead of the "Porsche/Audi" of speakers. I think most dealers go with the easy sell, which is......whatever brand the customer recognizes or is predisposed to buy when they walk in the door.

I actually have to explain why NHT Fours don't sound anything at all like other $2000/pr speakers and why they're not "lacking" stuff. Of course, as I started to tell one guy why they sound more like $10,000/pr speakers than $2000/pr speakers, he said "you don't have to tell me, I've been around the whole city!!!" That made my day at least :)

I'm not really a fan of the current print ads which show the guy with the megaphone up to his ear. They need to show product in the ads. They make nice looking speakers, they should show them off.

The Xd is one of the most critically acclaimed speakers ever, and it also happens to look nice. Why not do an ad with a set of them in a contemporary setting along with blurbs from Stereophile, TAS, Sensible Sound etc? Same goes for the Classic series.

Interesting discussion on marketing or lack thereof by NHT.

I wanted a new speaker system for my HT a few months ago and did my research by reading every review that the internet and library could provide; then demo'ed every system in my price range within 120 miles of my residence. The interesting thing is that the demo sessions revealed a lot more than just speakers, it really separated the dealers who were just SELLING from the ones who were passionate on what they did.

The NHT dealer (also sold other lines) that I run into seemed very passionate and knowlegeable about this insanity and after talking to me about what I was trying to accomplish; recommended my current system. He was so confident about these speakers that he offerred to deliver them (200+ mile roundtrip drive), set them up, compare them against any speaker system up to 2X the price for 2 weeks, and if they were not what I wanted; he'd take 'em back and only run my credit card after the 2 week trial. I took the offer and the rest is history.

That's some very impressive service. Good way to get a customer for life.

Absolutely..... as a customer, how can you lose with an offer like that.

I am far from being an "audiophyle" but do appreciate the nicer things in life.
My biggest anxiety was purchasing a speaker system based solely on how it performed while in the dealers AV showroom (some definitely had sonically optimized rooms, superior wiring and electronics, etc. which I will never be willing to match $$$) then taking them home and not being happy.

If I remember correctly, Michael Fremer has a preference for tubes, which would explain his use of the terms "cool" and "metallic" - tubes tending to be on the "warm" side of neutral.

Yep, this was a classic, textbook example (as John always alludes to) of a reviewer liking a much more expensive speaker (in this particular case, the Sonus Fabers) that has a subjective, artificially "colored" or "flavored" sound more than the Classics which have better, flatter objective measurements. :( :mad:

Any fan knows the only real Van Halen is the David Lee Roth Van Halen. :)

I don't know about that. As I'm getting older, I'm actually starting to like the "Van Hagar" version more and more.

Sammy definitely brought more to the band than DLR. He had a much better voice, not to mention being a 2nd guitar player (which they didn't take advantage of enough). For instance, that's Sammy playing the guitar solo on "Love Walks In", not Eddie.

I'm offering full re-imbursement for any marketing classes that NHT employees would like to take :)

That bad thing about not doing good marketing is you're getting killed in the ether by companies that are half as good and twice the price and that is before people even hear or see them for the first time. I have to work well uphill to sell the amounts I do. It ain't easy being an NHT dealer in a marketplace that views them as the "VW" of speakers instead of the "Porsche/Audi" of speakers. I think most dealers go with the easy sell, which is......whatever brand the customer recognizes or is predisposed to buy when they walk in the door.

I actually have to explain why NHT Fours don't sound anything at all like other $2000/pr speakers and why they're not "lacking" stuff. Of course, as I started to tell one guy why they sound more like $10,000/pr speakers than $2000/pr speakers, he said "you don't have to tell me, I've been around the whole city!!!" That made my day at least :)

As much as I hate Bose, I have to concede that they do a great job at marketing.

Could you just imagine NHT's quality products with a Bose-like marketing campaign behind them? :eek:

I'm not really a fan of the current print ads which show the guy with the megaphone up to his ear. They need to show product in the ads. They make nice looking speakers, they should show them off.

The Xd is one of the most critically acclaimed speakers ever, and it also happens to look nice. Why not do an ad with a set of them in a contemporary setting along with blurbs from Stereophile, TAS, Sensible Sound etc? Same goes for the Classic series.

Based on Jack's previous comments on this thread a while back about the T6's Class A Stereophile review and rating having absolutely no effect on any increased sales whatsoever, I wonder if there is much point to having any print adds at all.

I guess they are better than nothing, and, like you said, they could be done better.

As much as I hate Bose, I have to concede that they do a great job at marketing.

Could you just imagine NHT's quality products with a Bose-like marketing campaign behind them? :eek:

I used to work for Bose :o and, yes, I wrote advertisements for NHT, but they won't use them.

Of course, I'd rather sell great gear with bad marketing than bad gear with great marketing (been there, done that......)

NHT will probably never pass the exclusivity test, we'll just have to be satisified with great sound.

I have a question about Bose, that honestly don't know the answer. Did Bose ever make a good product? All you ever here about Bose on the AVS forums is that their equipment is total crap. I don't disagree, I'm not a fan of any of their HTIB systems. I just wonder though did they get their reputation strictly through great marketing campaigns or did they actually have a good product at one time and they have been riding that wave for decades?

Back on NHT, I think they could benefit from a better marketing campaign. There have been plenty of products that suffered or failed purely because of poor marketing. Betamax comes to mind. Anyone remember OS/2?

I have a question about Bose, that honestly don't know the answer. Did Bose ever make a good product? All you ever here about Bose on the AVS forums is that their equipment is total crap.

Not really. The best stuff from the early 70s was competitive, but hardly the best made and it was downhill from there.

I remember wanting a pair of 901s in the late 60s, early 70s.

Speaker techonolgy has improved since then.

I have to disagree with the earlier posts regarding NHT marketing. Yes it used to be almost nonexistant...but somehow the right people found them anyway. After the recent buyout, the PR has become very tasteful & targeted at the right segment. There are many if's, however maybe the company doesnt want to market/be like the others out there; also do they even want to become a larger company...I would have to say no at this point; make higher quality products at reasonable prices for those that want them, and stay within their means....ie. stay in business. Imo, they have it just about right. Most of the techs in this area have NHT/NAD and anyone else who comes around never heard of them. Who cares about that if the products are as good as they are? ;)

I think most dealers go with the easy sell, which is......whatever brand the customer recognizes or is predisposed to buy when they walk in the door.

Interesting conversation and a thought-provoking comment. When I bought my 3.3s in the mid-90s, I can't tell you the number of heavy hitters I auditioned before I found them sitting in a back listening room on the second floor of an audio store. Being a researcher, I knew what I was looking at, and I was blown away by their sound. What a deal I got, too -- I think they had just sat because of their somewhat quirky look (and no doubt that lack of marketing just mentioned). In fact, I'm certain those "weaknesses" worked to my advantage. They still sit in my living room, and sound as good as ever.

Anyway, Alimentall's comment really grabbed my eye. Unfortunately, it's a two-way, cynical street out there. My first reaction to a salesman trying to educate me is he has a hidden agenda (like a spiff from the dealer or manufacturer, or simply some inventory challenge). What's more, as a consumer, it'd be nice to believe that a high-end dealer goes to a few shows and carefully considers which products he's going to carry at each price point via back-to-back comparative auditions, refreshing the store's lines every few years based on ongoing critical listening that we as consumers don't have the time or the access to peform. But as a jaded consumer, it's hard to believe that's really the case. Mind you, I'm chiming in based on zero knowledge of how high-end retail works, I'm just tossing out my own (paranoid?) perceptions.

Yet, on the other hand, Alimentall's comments have me feeling a little too unwashed and part of the masses. Could be me he's talking about in the above comment. I know from personal experience what a giant killer NHT is, but if I were a salesman talking to a guy that came in to listen to the Boston Acoustics his Uncle Jack told him are to die for, I could see where the path of least resistance would be pretty tempting.

Not really. The best stuff from the early 70s was competitive, but hardly the best made and it was downhill from there.I was at MIT in the early 70s, and my roommate did research with Bose, a professor at MIT at the time (The 901s and 301s were available commercially). I worked on a recording studio and Bose was involved in that as well. Very interesting guy. The very early 901s used CTS drivers, needed a lot of power due to the active equilization trying to get low base and high treble out of 9 4" drivers, but with enough power, they were great for electric rock. CTS fell out of favor and Bose went with different drivers, which I believe had weaker magnets but didn't seem to sound as good. I used a Phase Linear 400 to drive home-made 901s with CTS drivers and a home-made (but copied from Bose's design) active equilizer. The sealed boxes were 3/4" pressboard (this was 1973) with bracing and heavily glued. We tried varying the fiberglass inside the box and ended up with the box about 1/3 full for a somewhat balanced sound. I think if you listened to these today you'd laugh, but in the day...

Peter

1. Attach speakers to receiver (or amp).
2. Turn on receiver (or amp).
3. Play a CD, count to 10.
Congratulations!! Speakers are now broken in. However, ears, whether old or new sometimes require a break in period of 48 hours or so.
It's just my opinion (and I'm not a psychiatrist) but I think you guys are nuts. I listened to Classic 3s that were right out of the box over 3 weekly visits to a (not close) dealer, and thought they sounded better each time, to the point where extended listening had no "wince" points with my chosen music. The day of the 3rd listen, I bought a pair, brought them home, and they sounded exactly like the in-store pair that first day. After playing overnight they were better, and after playing overnight again, they were great. This wasn't attuning my ears (which admittedly are old) because I had just listened to a "broken-in" pair at the store.

John, are you saying this is phenomenon of which you have not heard and do not believe? You have far more experience than I on this, and maybe I'm crazy (but I'm no psychiatrist).

Peter

I used to work for Bose :o and, yes, I wrote advertisements for NHT, but they won't use them.





Maybe you need to take a course in marketing. You need to learn how to sell things to people who don't want to buy what you are selling (AKA "yes, I wrote advertisements for NHT, but they won't use them")!

It's just my opinion (and I'm not a psychiatrist) but I think you guys are nuts. I listened to Classic 3s that were right out of the box over 3 weekly visits to a (not close) dealer, and thought they sounded better each time, to the point where extended listening had no "wince" points with my chosen music. The day of the 3rd listen, I bought a pair, brought them home, and they sounded exactly like the in-store pair that first day. After playing overnight they were better, and after playing overnight again, they were great. This wasn't attuning my ears (which admittedly are old) because I had just listened to a "broken-in" pair at the store.

John, are you saying this is phenomenon of which you have not heard and do not believe? You have far more experience than I on this, and maybe I'm crazy (but I'm no psychiatrist).

Peter


It is your ears (or your mind playing games), not the speakers (or amplifiers or whatever) breaking in.

Your system will sound different at different times based on what your hearing has gone through during the day. Heck, if I cut the lawn and then come into the house and listen to my system, it sounds way different than it did before I cut the grass.

Just be glad that you bought speakers that sound good even after you have used them for a while. Many people buy speakers that sound "bright" (or whatever) watever) after they listen to them for a while in their own listening environment!

Based on Jack's previous comments on this thread a while back about the T6's Class A Stereophile review and rating having absolutely no effect on any increased sales whatsoever, I wonder if there is much point to having any print adds at all.

I guess they are better than nothing, and, like you said, they could be done better.

Wasn't that the same time they discontinued the T6 proper in favor of M monitors paired with U subs? And also they were starting to push Classics and Xd.

Of course I'm sure Jack knows what he's talking about, but it appears that it could be a failure to capitalize on the review, rather than the review just not having any impact.

It's just my opinion (and I'm not a psychiatrist) but I think you guys are nuts

LOL :D My ex would certainly agree with you on that one oldears!!

Well, I do believe in break in to a point. I'd say the first 24 hours is the speaker and most, if not all of the rest is you. There are *engineers* who are saying that all break in occurs within minutes, some say within hours and others say they can measure break in out to days. Who knows? I suppose I could whip out a fresh set of Threes and A/B them, but well, I've got *marketing* to do! :)

In regards to my comments regarding NHT marketing. I guess I wasn't really commenting on their advertising campaign so much but more about my recent purchase experience.

I started my search for new speakers knowing that I wanted to include NHT in my auditions. I knew this from past ownership experience with NHT. I acquired my NHT Zeros because they were small and I thought they would be good choice for surround speakers to go with my Kenwood receiver with Matrix surround. :) At that time I didn't know squat about speakers, I just bought the NHTs because of the size and because the sounded good in the store. It wasn't until later that I found out that the NHTs outperformed my bookshelves. :)

That was probably 16 years ago. If I didn't happen to stumble on those Zeros all those years ago, I don't think I would have listened to any NHTs today. If I didn't already own any NHT speakers, I wouldn't have sought them out today. I honestly don't think I would even be able to tell you the difference between NHT and the NBA. That speaks to NHTs marketing.

When I started looking for NHT dealers in my area I honestly could not find any stores that sold NHT products. The only places that I could find were custom home theater installers that didn't have any showrooms. The closest store to my home that sells NHT is about an hour and a half from my home. Now I could understand having to drive that far to find decent audio gear if I lived in say Montana but I live near Sacramento, CA. Not exactly a remote area.

When I go shopping for speakers I want to take them for a test drive. I want to hear what they sound like. That's hard to do when none of the stores you visit carry the brand you're looking for. My point is, if I was a more casual shopper or didn't have any previous first hand experience with NHT I would have never had the opportunity to hear NHT so I never would have bought the brand.

Well, I do believe in break in to a point. I'd say the first 24 hours is the speaker and most, if not all of the rest is you. There are *engineers* who are saying that all break in occurs within minutes, some say within hours and others say they can measure break in out to days. Who knows? I suppose I could whip out a fresh set of Threes and A/B them, but well, I've got *marketing* to do! :)

By the way, my previous comment about break in was merely me saying what I thought Jack would say about break in. I have no real experience with break in nor do I have any technical knowledge to say whether break in is needed or not. I'm by no means and expert on this topic.

I may be mistaken, but I don't think that Onkyo has pre-outs if you ever wanted to bi-amp.

Again, for about $1400, you could get a new X2 and dual A1s to bi-amp them with, along with a new NAD C325BEE integrated to power the upper drivers over 125 Hz, and I guarantee you this would outperform a Krell 400 on a pair of Fours. ;) :cool:

I want 1 box, that's why i will change at all. otherwise, i'll keep my Ref9s and add a tube preamp. i like very simple systems---which is why i bought the 4s and not a pair of 3s w/ sub. i hvaen't had surround sound in 4 years and don't miss it one bit---nor have any of my guests.

To all: That new Onkyo integrated is like 35lbs, and a digital design with linear power supply i believe. at $499 new street, hit in resale isn't a big deal and could be a great bedroom system anchor. word on other audio sites is it performs admirally compared to higher priced alternatives. better than NAD, Naim, etc.

this is a bang for the buck system, nothing else and why i chose the 4s to begin with. they aren't as good as my Sophias, plain and simple (nor should they be) and i would like to get Wilson Watt/Puppy 7s eventually, but due to certain circumstances (a change of hobbies included), its not in the cards right now.

KR

Anyone have any experience with NHT repair service? In particular I'm wondering how long the turn around time was for anyone.

Unfortunately, one of the cones in my 3C was torn during my last move. I just unboxed it yesterday. :(

I see that they do repairs, but also see that they state, "Returns can be a slow and frustrating process". Curious about how slow.

Perhaps you could order another driver and replace it yourself.

Perhaps you could order another driver and replace it yourself.

I wouldn't even know where to start without potentially FUBARing my sound out of that speaker. Got a walkthrough? :)

I remember my dad trying some 901's when I was in grade school in the late 70's and thinking 'man - his Advents sounded a lot better' ... He didn't have them long and was young so I really can't speak +/- about them too much...

Thanks for the feedback on the Bose stuff. So I guess their success has mainly been based on their marketing.

I wouldn't even know where to start without potentially FUBARing my sound out of that speaker. Got a walkthrough? :)

Not very difficult at all, 4 screws and 2 spade connectors....
grab the serial number off your speaker and Contact Matt at NHT. VERY helpful and quick service....the info is on their website under the service and repair.

I want 1 box, that's why i will change at all. otherwise, i'll keep my Ref9s and add a tube preamp. i like very simple systems---which is why i bought the 4s and not a pair of 3s w/ sub. i hvaen't had surround sound in 4 years and don't miss it one bit---nor have any of my guests.

To all: That new Onkyo integrated is like 35lbs, and a digital design with linear power supply i believe. at $499 new street, hit in resale isn't a big deal and could be a great bedroom system anchor. word on other audio sites is it performs admirally compared to higher priced alternatives. better than NAD, Naim, etc.

this is a bang for the buck system, nothing else and why i chose the 4s to begin with. they aren't as good as my Sophias, plain and simple (nor should they be) and i would like to get Wilson Watt/Puppy 7s eventually, but due to certain circumstances (a change of hobbies included), its not in the cards right now.

KR

I know it sounds complicated with four boxes as opposed to one, but once you've hooked them up, you're done! It's a one time deal. After initial set up, it's basically the same as only having one box. You don't even have to ever hit any power-on buttons on the X2 and A1s, so there is still only one power button to push. :cool:

Same thing with the X2's controls, once you've got it's settings all dialed in properly, you don't ever to change them again after that if you don't want to. In fact, most of it's settings, like boundary control, phase, and high and low pass filters should always stay the same anyway unless you change the Fours' placement by physically moving them to a different spot.

Regardless of amp, these speakers have plenty of detail/resolution, and it sounds like you're set on the Onk anyway though, so good luck with it. ;)

In regards to my comments regarding NHT marketing. I guess I wasn't really commenting on their advertising campaign so much but more about my recent purchase experience.

I started my search for new speakers knowing that I wanted to include NHT in my auditions. I knew this from past ownership experience with NHT. I acquired my NHT Zeros because they were small and I thought they would be good choice for surround speakers to go with my Kenwood receiver with Matrix surround. :) At that time I didn't know squat about speakers, I just bought the NHTs because of the size and because the sounded good in the store. It wasn't until later that I found out that the NHTs outperformed my bookshelves. :)

That was probably 16 years ago. If I didn't happen to stumble on those Zeros all those years ago, I don't think I would have listened to any NHTs today. If I didn't already own any NHT speakers, I wouldn't have sought them out today. I honestly don't think I would even be able to tell you the difference between NHT and the NBA. That speaks to NHTs marketing.

When I started looking for NHT dealers in my area I honestly could not find any stores that sold NHT products. The only places that I could find were custom home theater installers that didn't have any showrooms. The closest store to my home that sells NHT is about an hour and a half from my home. Now I could understand having to drive that far to find decent audio gear if I lived in say Montana but I live near Sacramento, CA. Not exactly a remote area.

When I go shopping for speakers I want to take them for a test drive. I want to hear what they sound like. That's hard to do when none of the stores you visit carry the brand you're looking for. My point is, if I was a more casual shopper or didn't have any previous first hand experience with NHT I would have never had the opportunity to hear NHT so I never would have bought the brand.

Anyone ever notice how once somebody has had some NHTs, they usually always keep some NHTs from then on after that? :D

Wasn't that the same time they discontinued the T6 proper in favor of M monitors paired with U subs? And also they were starting to push Classics and Xd.

Of course I'm sure Jack knows what he's talking about, but it appears that it could be a failure to capitalize on the review, rather than the review just not having any impact.

No, the review was well before they were discontinued, although they had been out for quite a while before the review, but if the cheapest speaker with a Class A rating wasn't enough on it's on, then what would have been?

No, the review was well before they were discontinued, although they had been out for quite a while before the review, but if the cheapest speaker with a Class A rating wasn't enough on it's on, then what would have been?

Well, the Class A rating came out a few months later, right? (I'm too lazy to check) Someone else probably remembers for sure, but I don't think there was more than a few months between the "Recommended Components" publication and the cancellation of the model.

Regardless, my point was to suggest that good reviews are complementary to good marketing. It's hard to succeed on the basis of one alone (with some notable exceptions). That's my primary point, that it seems no attempt was made to capitalize on the reviews.

If that same review had come out within a year of the T6s coming to market, it would have helped *a lot* with T6 sales. But the fact that it was so late in the game made very little difference. It is helping to sell Classics though. People see that Class A rating and it piques their interest in NHT in general.

Think of a great 2007 car review of a car that came out in 2003. People read reviews about products that just came out. I suspect few people read the T6 review, but many more noticed that it was in Class A after it was gone. It probably also helps that they see the Class A rating without a picture of them :)

When the T6s came out, I wasn't thrilled by the looks, but my partner was horrified. They grow on you and look actually very nice next to a nice piece of furniture, but most people that saw them declined on looks alone ("I want them, but my wife won't go for them") and those that didn't threw a bag on them and took them home.

I wouldn't even know where to start without potentially FUBARing my sound out of that speaker. Got a walkthrough? :)

Basically you need to remove the 6 phillips head screws that attach the driver to the cabinet. The driver is flush mounted and a tight fit, the trick is to coax it out without marring the baffle. In as much as your current driver is damaged anyway, I would probably set the speaker on it on its side, grab ahold of the rubber surround wit both hands and pull. Once extracted, remove the spade connectors form the old driver (needle nosed pliers could help) and attach to the new driver. Put the speaker on a soft surface on its back, align the holes and replace the screws. Snug in a criss-cross pattern, do not over-tighten and strip the holes, better to have to retighten after a few hours of play. About a 15 minute job.

Anyone ever notice how once somebody has had some NHTs, they usually always keep some NHTs from then on after that? :D

NHT must be doing something right. :) Brand loyalty is a great thing to have. I did search for other options but NHT still suits me best. I'm sure NHT will be on my list when it's time for my next speaker purchase as well.

Basically you need to remove the 6 phillips head screws that attach the driver to the cabinet. The driver is flush mounted and a tight fit, the trick is to coax it out without marring the baffle. In as much as your current driver is damaged anyway, I would probably set the speaker on it on its side, grab ahold of the rubber surround wit both hands and pull. Once extracted, remove the spade connectors form the old driver (needle nosed pliers could help) and attach to the new driver. Put the speaker on a soft surface on its back, align the holes and replace the screws. Snug in a criss-cross pattern, do not over-tighten and strip the holes, better to have to retighten after a few hours of play. About a 15 minute job.

Thanks, Eric. Apparently Matt over at NHT agrees that this monkey can do the job, too. They shipped out a new driver to me yesterday. I was very impressed with my first customer service contact with them, and (to reference the above post) it'll go a long way to steering me towards future purchases with them.

Maybe I'm getting old and even less patient (if that's possible), but I'm beginning to buy more and more from small 'boutique' companies for this very reason. My processor/amp is from Emotiva, and I expect I'll have just as positive of an experience should I need to contact them.

NHT is 'boutique' now? That marketing class must really be working for ole' Jack.

:)

NHT is 'boutique' now? That marketing class must really be working for ole' Jack.

:)

lol. Well...moreso than let's say...Bose. It's boutique to me compared to the big boys. I'm thinking of the whole home theater experience here. When I call Samsung, things are just a *little* bit different than when I called NHT yesterday. :)

I understand, just having some fun.

I got this sharp mental image of Jack hunched over a table diligently designing some interconnects...neon blue jacket with little megaphones on them. And of course, John banging on the locked door insisting they should be bright red.

I mean, you can't be boutique without outlandish cabling, right?

:)

Since this thread seems to diverge from time to time from the topic, I hope no one minds if I ask if there's a forum somewhere with a lot of NHT owners? I need one (1) VS-2 or VS-2a speaker and I'm hoping to find someone who upgraded from them a while back and have yet to unload it...

Thanks, Eric. Apparently Matt over at NHT agrees that this monkey can do the job, too. They shipped out a new driver to me yesterday. I was very impressed with my first customer service contact with them, and (to reference the above post) it'll go a long way to steering me towards future purchases with them.

Maybe I'm getting old and even less patient (if that's possible), but I'm beginning to buy more and more from small 'boutique' companies for this very reason. My processor/amp is from Emotiva, and I expect I'll have just as positive of an experience should I need to contact them.

How do like the Emotiva with the NHT's? I am curious to here your impressions.

Yes, customer service is GREAT, and Matt is very good and fast to work with!!!!
I am a customer for life....

How do like the Emotiva with the NHT's? I am curious to here your impressions.

Yes, customer service is GREAT, and Matt is very good and fast to work with!!!!
I am a customer for life....

So far, so great. Although I haven't really pushed the system at all. I just got my Sonos system hooked up, and I've got to re-encode my entire music collection in Apple Lossless. :eek:

To add insult to injury, my NHTs are sitting on their boxes for stands (it's been a long move process :D). I need a recommendation on some decent stands for the 3s that I can buy at a B&M. Thoughts?

I mean, you can't be boutique without outlandish cabling, right?

:)

You've seen the fabrications at Hot Import Nights, right? ;)

Yeah, some of those models have been quite well fabricated indeed.

:cool:

Apple Lossless. :eek:


(Offtopic)
:eek: is right :D
I just checked, Sonos supports FLAC, have you considered using it? Media Monkey and Fubar are both great media players/managers that support FLAC, OGG, and others....
(Resume NHT topic) ;)

Yeah, some of those models have been quite well fabricated indeed.

:cool:

Not much fabric, though. :D

(Offtopic)
:eek: is right :D
I just checked, Sonos supports FLAC, have you considered using it? Media Monkey and Fubar are both great media players/managers that support FLAC, OGG, and others....
(Resume NHT topic) ;)

I did consider using it, but I'm trying my best to balance end user friendliness and SQ. For me, AL really takes care of this. Is FLAC really that much better of a format? Remember this is coming from someone who, although I've worked in music and TV in my life, has well-worn ears that were hearing 256K .mp3 encodings as acceptable. Bottom line is that I had a hell of a time trying to encode to FLAC in the past (just a few months ago), and it turned me off to trying to muddle through the trouble.

I also have some dim hope that Apple might actually start selling AL tracks on iTunes. Between the RIAA and Apple, though, I'm not holding my breath. I'd sure as hell buy a lot more from them if they did offer it.

(Offtopic)
:eek: is right :D
I just checked, Sonos supports FLAC, have you considered using it? Media Monkey and Fubar are both great media players/managers that support FLAC, OGG, and others....
(Resume NHT topic) ;)

I bet he's using a Mac. If so and you decide you want to use FLAC instead of Apple Lossless look at Max and Play (http://sbooth.org/) instead of Media Monkey and Fubar.

I did consider using it, but I'm trying my best to balance end user friendliness and SQ. For me, AL really takes care of this. Is FLAC really that much better of a format? Remember this is coming from someone who, although I've worked in music and TV in my life, has well-worn ears that were hearing 256K .mp3 encodings as acceptable. Bottom line is that I had a hell of a time trying to encode to FLAC in the past (just a few months ago), and it turned me off to trying to muddle through the trouble.

I also have some dim hope that Apple might actually start selling AL tracks on iTunes. Between the RIAA and Apple, though, I'm not holding my breath. I'd sure as hell buy a lot more from them if they did offer it.

Only reason not to use ALAC is a) philosophical (FLAC is open source) or b) if you're not using iTunes.

The lossless formats have some variation in file sizes, but nothing substantial and of course sound quality is identical. Use whatever's easiest for you. I've got some UNIX geek in me but I'm perfectly happy with my ALAC collection.

Well, the Class A rating came out a few months later, right? (I'm too lazy to check) Someone else probably remembers for sure, but I don't think there was more than a few months between the "Recommended Components" publication and the cancellation of the model.

Regardless, my point was to suggest that good reviews are complementary to good marketing. It's hard to succeed on the basis of one alone (with some notable exceptions). That's my primary point, that it seems no attempt was made to capitalize on the reviews.

So what exactly is it that you think they should have done to capitalize on it?

If that same review had come out within a year of the T6s coming to market, it would have helped *a lot* with T6 sales. But the fact that it was so late in the game made very little difference. It is helping to sell Classics though. People see that Class A rating and it piques their interest in NHT in general.

Think of a great 2007 car review of a car that came out in 2003. People read reviews about products that just came out. I suspect few people read the T6 review, but many more noticed that it was in Class A after it was gone. It probably also helps that they see the Class A rating without a picture of them :)

When the T6s came out, I wasn't thrilled by the looks, but my partner was horrified. They grow on you and look actually very nice next to a nice piece of furniture, but most people that saw them declined on looks alone ("I want them, but my wife won't go for them") and those that didn't threw a bag on them and took them home.

The thing is, you can still get something in current production that is even better than a pair of T6s, for even less money nonetheless.

By my calculations, pairs of M6s, P6s, W1s, A1s, and a single X1 comes in at like $3850 at full retail, less than the T6's MSRP of $4000, and this set up will trump a pair of T6s ANY day of the week since the W1 cabinets are superior to B6s, not to even mention having much better placement options. ;)

I understand, just having some fun.

I got this sharp mental image of Jack hunched over a table diligently designing some interconnects...neon blue jacket with little megaphones on them. And of course, John banging on the locked door insisting they should be bright red.

I mean, you can't be boutique without outlandish cabling, right?

:)

Remember the adds of Matthew Polk wearing a white lab jacket? :D

NHT must be doing something right. :) Brand loyalty is a great thing to have. I did search for other options but NHT still suits me best. I'm sure NHT will be on my list when it's time for my next speaker purchase as well.

I know this may seem like very coincidental timing, but true story - yesterday after I posted that which you quoted in the post of yours that I'm quoting here in mine, I heard from the guy who I bought my 3.3s off of. He is setting up a new HT, and he was asking about the new Classics. ;)

Since this thread seems to diverge from time to time from the topic, I hope no one minds if I ask if there's a forum somewhere with a lot of NHT owners? I need one (1) VS-2 or VS-2a speaker and I'm hoping to find someone who upgraded from them a while back and have yet to unload it...

This thread has more or less become the "official" NHT owner's thread for all things NHT. :cool:

How do like the Emotiva with the NHT's? I am curious to here your impressions.

That amp is arguably the best buy in a new amp on the market today, 6 x 125 watts with a toroidal transformer and a weight of 60-some lbs. for like $400! You've got to be kiddin' me! You can't even hardly buy a good used amp at those specs for that price off the bay or 'gon. :eek:

Only reason not to use ALAC is a) philosophical (FLAC is open source) or b) if you're not using iTunes.

The lossless formats have some variation in file sizes, but nothing substantial and of course sound quality is identical. Use whatever's easiest for you. I've got some UNIX geek in me but I'm perfectly happy with my ALAC collection.

To me, the biggest reason for FLAC, ogg, and mp3, are more universal....Not propritary to Apple or Microsoft. Most high end players support flac, but apple is apple....

Quite frankly my 35 yo ears are generally fine with 192 vbr MP3 files....

That amp is arguably the best buy in a new amp on the market today, 6 x 125 watts with a toroidal transformer and a weight of 60-some lbs. for like $400! You've got to be kiddin' me! You can't even hardly buy a good used amp at those specs for that price off the bay or 'gon. :eek:

Thats what I hear, but I also here a few problems....
And AA has the NAD CI 9060 for $799 and that is mighty tempting....esspecially if my room gets bigger (new house).

Thats what I hear, but I also here a few problems....
And AA has the NAD CI 9060 for $799 and that is mighty tempting....esspecially if my room gets bigger (new house).

That NAD also has a toroidal tranny, but it is 6 x 80 watts and only 40 lbs for twice the price of the Emotiva.

Sounds like an easy decision to me. ;)

What are the problems with the Emotiva you heard about?

Still though, for the price of the NAD, you could actually buy 2 of the Emotivas, and have a spare back up just in case the first one breaks. :p

They look great :)

They look great :)

What looks great, the Emotiva amps, the Fours, the T6s, the old adds of Matthew Polk in a white lab jacket, or what? :p :D

That amp is arguably the best buy in a new amp on the market today, 6 x 125 watts with a toroidal transformer and a weight of 60-some lbs. for like $400! You've got to be kiddin' me! You can't even hardly buy a good used amp at those specs for that price off the bay or 'gon. :eek:

I like the look of that little 2 channel guy with level control... the BP1-A. Could be great for biamping, or you could use it with a source with volume control (iPod, Squeezebox) and a pair of speakers and have a nice little mini system. Intriguing...

I like the look of that little 2 channel guy with level control... the BP1-A. Could be great for biamping, or you could use it with a source with volume control (iPod, Squeezebox) and a pair of speakers and have a nice little mini system. Intriguing...

Yeah, I noticed that too. That and the pre-amp's bass management features would be great for incorporating an X1 or an X2 into the system if you wanted to avoid and work around their high pass outputs.

I've got a B&K Reference 5 S2 pre-amp/tuner:

http://www.bkcomp.com/preamp_tuner_wesay.asp

... that has basically the same features as the pre-amp, and NAD C270/C272 power amps have level controls like that on them too.

To me, the biggest reason for FLAC, ogg, and mp3, are more universal....Not propritary to Apple or Microsoft. Most high end players support flac, but apple is apple....

Quite frankly my 35 yo ears are generally fine with 192 vbr MP3 files....

ALAC seems to be getting a bit of traction. Seems to be plenty of open source support for it these days. And it may not be Apple proprietary; there's evidence to suggest that it's the same as the MPEG4 lossless standard.

But anyway, everything I use to play music works fine with my Apple Lossless setup. Do whatever is easiest for your equipment.

Yeah, I noticed that too. That and the pre-amp's bass management features would be great for incorporating an X1 or an X2 into the system if you wanted to avoid and work around their high pass outputs.

If you're just biamping, you can use the built-in crossovers and forego the X2 entirely, which is not what I would do but I know some people looking to biamp that want to do so on the cheap.

That and I'm still playing around with the idea of building a system around one. Been looking for something for the GF. She likes my stereo but the last time I was over she was listening to music over laptop speakers.

This thread has more or less become the "official" NHT owner's thread for all things NHT. :cool:

Ah! Since we're discussing all things NHT, whatever did become of Ken Kantor? Last time I spoke with him (er, mebbe 10 years ago...), he was getting heavily into electronic music creation. Is he involved with any audio companies these days?

The Sonos ZP100 for $499 has a built in automatic 80Hz crossover - just plug in a sub.

Apple is making Lossless codecs available now to other companies, I hear. Lossless is just MPEG4. It may have some special twist on it, but it is MPEG4 at its core.

I'd like to see a new A1 with built in, bypassable Evo EQ, basic room correction, one of the 250W ICE modules. No high pass, just a bypassable low pass filter. Daisy chainable. Maybe call it the XA1. Of course, with the extreme reliability of the A1, it almost would be a shame to switch to the ICE modules unless it can hold up as well as the A1.

I'd like to see a new A1 with built in, bypassable Evo EQ, basic room correction, one of the 250W ICE modules. No high pass, just a bypassable low pass filter. Daisy chainable. Maybe call it the XA1. Of course, with the extreme reliability of the A1, it almost would be a shame to switch to the ICE modules unless it can hold up as well as the A1.

Now that sounds like one hell of an idea! :D

You haven't had problems with any Power5 or 2s have you?

The Sonos ZP100 for $499 has a built in automatic 80Hz crossover - just plug in a sub.

Apple is making Lossless codecs available now to other companies, I hear. Lossless is just MPEG4. It may have some special twist on it, but it is MPEG4 at its core.

I went with the ZP80, just because I already had the MMC-1, and it has optical/coax out, it's smaller, and it executes the same. So far, I'm very impressed with the whole system. I've been looking for a network-based system for a long time so I can retire/store my media, and this is finally it (I've been playing with various other 'solutions' for nearly five years now).

Positive comments about Emotiva amps, in particular, are very good...almost universal. There have been some problems with their 'low end' processor, but their other three pres seem to get quite the praise. So far, they mate well with the 3s. Should sound considerably better when I get everything dialed in.

The Sonos ZP100 for $499 has a built in automatic 80Hz crossover - just plug in a sub.

How good's the amp in that thing? Roughly comparable to...?

How good's the amp in that thing? Roughly comparable to...?

I can't imagine it's all that substantial. Size isn't everything, but...

That being said, for a secondary system, I'd be all over it, given how easy it was to setup and start using.

You haven't had problems with any Power5 or 2s have you?

No, except maybe an ethernet card not working properly on one or two out of about 20 or so. But I've sold over 200 A1s and I've only had two that *kinda* failed-ish.

How good's the amp in that thing? Roughly comparable to...?

It seems very good. Probably pretty close to an NAD C320. I wouldn't say it's better, but it sure seems nice. I haven't really seriously compared it, but I have it driving my Fours now to try it out. So far so good. That being said, I don't often "hear" an amp unless I'm doing level matched A/Bing and even then I don't hear the dramatic differences I'd like to hear.

Does anyone know of a good 50 watts x 5 power amp? :confused:

It seems very good. Probably pretty close to an NAD C320. I wouldn't say it's better, but it sure seems nice. I haven't really seriously compared it, but I have it driving my Fours now to try it out. So far so good.

I thought you had an Audio Innovations, or something like that, at like 30 watts X 2 on them?

That being said, I don't often "hear" an amp unless I'm doing level matched A/Bing and even then I don't hear the dramatic differences I'd like to hear.

Bingo! We have a winner! A good power amp should simply amplify the signal it is being fed, nothing more or nothing less, without adding anything to or taking anything away from it.

I haven't really seriously compared it, but I have it driving my Fours now to try it out. So far so good. That being said, I don't often "hear" an amp unless I'm doing level matched A/Bing and even then I don't hear the dramatic differences I'd like to hear.

Maybe 'cuz those "dramatic" differences only exist in the mind of those trying to hawk mega-dollar amps? ;-)

Brian

Maybe 'cuz those "dramatic" differences only exist in the mind of those trying to hawk mega-dollar amps? ;-)

Brian

Bingo yet again! We now have 2 winners in a row! :D

Bingo! We have a winner! A good power amp should simply amplify the signal it is being fed, nothing more or nothing less, without adding anything to or taking anything away from it.

Yes. I guess what I was really asking was if it supplied sufficient power to drive the NHTs...

I know my Onkyo HTR never quite drove the NHTs as well as my current NAD does. So the question was which category did the Sonos amps fit in, and it sounds like it's the latter.

Yes. I guess what I was really asking was if it supplied sufficient power to drive the NHTs...

I know my Onkyo HTR never quite drove the NHTs as well as my current NAD does. So the question was which category did the Sonos amps fit in, and it sounds like it's the latter.

Among the brands that make AVRs under $1000, the only ones I trust in their claimed power ratings are NAD, HK, Cambridge Audio, and that's about it. Maybe Marantz too. I don't think Rotel even has one less than $1000 do they?

Bingo! We have a winner! A good power amp should simply amplify the signal it is being fed, nothing more or nothing less, without adding anything to or taking anything away from it.
"A straight wire with gain"

Does NHT sell better outriggers for the 4s? that's the one thing i don't like---the plastic outriggers. it would seem better to just get a few pieces of maple board or tile/granite and put them on top...unless they have metal ones ala Thiel. just not that sturdy on my hardwood floor and they "creak" when playing around with placement.

any thoughts?

Two things. One, put a piece of the really thin foam in which the speaker is wrapped between the speaker and the outriggers. Two, I say try turning them over and filling them up with something, maybe plaster or cement to strengthen them. I've been thinking about doing that myself, just because.

Does NHT sell better outriggers for the 4s? that's the one thing i don't like---the plastic outriggers. it would seem better to just get a few pieces of maple board or tile/granite and put them on top...unless they have metal ones ala Thiel. just not that sturdy on my hardwood floor and they "creak" when playing around with placement.

any thoughts?

I LOVE my classics also, but also have the same issue with the outriggers. They do 'creak' when moved which means they are flexing. Does NHT make some metal ones like they did for he ST4's that fit the Fours? Maybe not as asthetic, but I'd prefer rigidity over looks.

This is such a great forum, thanks for everyone sharring info. I bought my first NHT's (Super Zeros) form John back in the early 90's and have been trading up to different models since. I've helped friends set up their systems consisting of speakers that were several times the price of my NHT's, but never seemed to sound as good. NHT is definately doing something right - very high quality at a reasonable price (by the way, some of the other systems were B&W, POLK, and JM Labs based).

Hey - if anyone has a Audio Center Two that they are looking to get rid of, please let me know. I decided to forgo the M6's for now because I got an awesome deal on some like new 3.3's and now need a center to match. I have a Classic 3C still on hand from a botched deal to try and get some Classic 4's, but I'm probably better off with the Audio Center Two.

Hey - if anyone has a Audio Center Two that they are looking to get rid of, please let me know.

I just sold mine. I wish I had 10 of them. It's the only time I have ever MADE money on a speaker. People were coming out of the walls to buy it.

... I got an awesome deal on some like new 3.3's ...

If anyone is near Milwaukee, there is a pair of 3.3s on A'gon for local pick up there right now at an incredible price (they are asking $850) if they are really in as good condition as the seller claims.

I just sold mine. I wish I had 10 of them. It's the only time I have ever MADE money on a speaker. People were coming out of the walls to buy it.

I have a complete surround set that I'm no longer using anymore, and prolly never will again, of a pair of 2.9s for mains, and three AC-2s as a center and surrounds that I'm prolly going to eventually wind up selling. :D

Needless to say, I'm very confident that I'll have absolutely no problems at all finding buyers for the AC-2s if and when the time comes. ;)

Stop hoarding - let me have one of those AC2's, Mark!!

:)

I have a complete surround set that I'm no longer using anymore, and prolly never will again, of a pair of 2.9s for mains, and three AC-2s as a center and surrounds that I'm prolly going to eventually wind up selling. :D

Needless to say, I'm very confident that I'll have absolutely no problems at all finding buyers for the AC-2s if and when the time comes. ;)

Stop hoarding - let me have one of those AC2's, Mark!!

:)

You will have first shot at one when the time comes if you still need one then, which will prolly be sooner rather than later, just as if I decide to sell a pair of VR3s (I have 2 pairs in 7.1 VT-3 system), someone here already has dibs on 'em. :cool:

I do want to try the 2.9/AC-2 system out just for the hell of it on the Controller/Power5 after their model specific Deq has been loaded in the first software update, but I very seriously doubt it will make me like them better than the comparable T5/M5/L5 combo though, and then I'll be ready to sell them. ;)

FWIW, the new Controller software seems to handle every NHT speaker except for a precious few. All "Super" speakers, all "Music" speakers, all "Video Tower" speakers. The only omissions I saw were speakers such as the 2.0, 1, 1A 1.1, 1.3, 2.1, 2.3. 2.5s, 1.5s, 2.5is, all VTs, etc were there.

FWIW, the new Controller software seems to handle every NHT speaker except for a precious few. All "Super" speakers, all "Music" speakers, all "Video Tower" speakers. The only omissions I saw were speakers such as the 2.0, 1, 1A 1.1, 1.3, 2.1, 2.3. 2.5s, 1.5s, 2.5is, all VTs, etc were there.

Good news indeed! :D

I'm lookin' forward to trying it out on 3.3s.

I'm a little surprised 2.5/2.5i were not included though. (Edit - N/M, I didn't see the period at first and now see that the 2.5is are in fact included. :o )

Thanks John.

Curious, it seems like everyone that has Fours would like better bass control and extension. Why doesn't NHT offer a version of the four with active subs? Why not put the A1/X1 components into the speaker so that it is already optomized for the Fours.

Curious, it seems like everyone that has Fours would like better bass control and extension. Why doesn't NHT offer a version of the four with active subs? Why not put the A1/X1 components into the speaker so that it is already optomized for the Fours.Electronics in a sub lead to both heat issues for the speakers, and vibration issues for the electronics. That hasn't stopped everyone else in the world from doing it, but NHT does offer a simple upgrade by buying an X2 and A1 (or two) or buying an X2 and using other channels of amplification available.

Peter

Curious, it seems like everyone that has Fours would like better bass control and extension. Why doesn't NHT offer a version of the four with active subs? Why not put the A1/X1 components into the speaker so that it is already optomized for the Fours.

Price, I'm sure. I think the large number of people here biamping is probably not a good sample of all Four owners.

Hell, I'd rather see them biamped and acoustic suspension. But at $1800 they were already a big price increase over the ST-4s. Can you imagine if they'd debuted at $2500 or $3000?

Price, I'm sure. I think the large number of people here biamping is probably not a good sample of all Four owners.

Hell, I'd rather see them biamped and acoustic suspension. But at $1800 they were already a big price increase over the ST-4s. Can you imagine if they'd debuted at $2500 or $3000?

Yeah, then certain Hi-Fi rags would like 'em even more :)

Brian

Sounds like the "Five" I remember somebody pushing for.

I do want to try the 2.9/AC-2 system out just for the hell of it on the Controller/Power5 after their model specific Deq has been loaded in the first software update, but I very seriously doubt it will make me like them better than the comparable T5/M5/L5 combo though, and then I'll be ready to sell them. ;)
I am very interested in this NHT controller for my M6 LCR setup. How much do these cost new and used? Do they come up on audiogon often? What benefits would they lend to the M6's inparticular?

Thanks,
MF

The " Inject-inator (http://nhthifi.com/2006/products/ht/injectinator.html) " ???

I am very interested in this NHT controller for my M6 LCR setup.

I can certainly understand that.

How much do these cost new and used?

I think retail is $2700 and $2000. I saw 1 combo on Audiogon for $3000, slightly used, a month or two ago.

Do they come up on audiogon often?

As stated above, I've seen 1 pair that didn't appear to be from a 'liquidator' type. People seem to want to hold on to them. :)

What benefits would they lend to the M6's inparticular?

I'll let those more qualified address that bit. I really should unbox mine...

Thanks,
MF

You're welcome!

Yeah, then certain Hi-Fi rags would like 'em even more :)

Brian

Touche'! :D John himself couldn't have said it any better. :p

Curious, it seems like everyone that has Fours would like better bass control and extension. Why doesn't NHT offer a version of the four with active subs? Why not put the A1/X1 components into the speaker so that it is already optomized for the Fours.


Electronics in a sub lead to both heat issues for the speakers, and vibration issues for the electronics. That hasn't stopped everyone else in the world from doing it, but NHT does offer a simple upgrade by buying an X2 and A1 (or two) or buying an X2 and using other channels of amplification available.

Peter

Or better yet, just get Threes with Evo subs. ;)

Price, I'm sure. I think the large number of people here biamping is probably not a good sample of all Four owners.

Good point. I think we are prolly a good microcosm of NHT owners represented here, but most not posting here prolly won't be adding X2s and A1s to the Fours.

Hell, I'd rather see them biamped and acoustic suspension. But at $1800 they were already a big price increase over the ST-4s. Can you imagine if they'd debuted at $2500 or $3000?

T5s were about that price, and what we're talking about here is basically a Classic version of the T5. :cool:

Besides, if someone adds an X2/dual A1 set up to a pair of Fours, then they are already at that same price point anyway.

T5s were about that price, and what we're talking about here is basically a Classic version of the T5. :cool:

Besides, if someone adds an X2/dual A1 set up to a pair of Fours, then they are already at that same price point anyway.

I guess what I was getting at was that at that price point, it should be a sepparate product. The Four would be for people looking to get out a little cheaper, maybe more for the HT crowd, and the "Five" would be for those of us that hang around here.

I think retail is $2700 and $2000. I saw 1 combo on Audiogon for $3000, slightly used, a month or two ago.



As stated above, I've seen 1 pair that didn't appear to be from a 'liquidator' type. People seem to want to hold on to them. :)

Someone here got a Controller off the 'bay for a lot less than that. (not me though :( :mad: )

I thought $3K for both units was a pretty good deal...I think it was Audiogon...may have been Fleabay.

I'm sure they are out there, just don't show up on Audiogon that often. Other than the glut of stuff that was there right after the Classics were available it has seemed to me that the pickin's for NHT gear is always a bit slim.

Retail price of Fours with an X2 and dual A1s = $2950

Retail price of Threes with a U2 sub set, plus an additional A1 for stereo bass = $2600

Retail price of Threes with dual W1s and A1s and a single X1 = $3050. (This set up in particular would absolutely destroy a pair of Fours bi-amped with an X2 and dual A1s! ;) )

Keep in mind though you would have to factor in the price of a set of stands for the Threes into those figures as well.

I have a query...if I have 7 channels and want to add 2 W1's for stereo bass (certainly don't need it for volume) it would seem that buying 2 Power5s to mate with the Controller would be a bit more elegant than the stadard 2 A1s, P5 and P2 (not to mention it would save some precious and rapidly disappearing rack space). I notice, however, that the P5 does not have the NHT Bus downstream connector. If I add a network switch, will the Controller still talk to both P5s?

Did that make any sense at all?

I was just reading about the NHTBus this morning for the frist time and you can hook it up to a network hub. I don't know how the controller would react but the documentation did say that you could use a hub. It also said you could plug it into your IP network and the NHTBus devices would suck up an IP address from your DHCP server, if you have one. From the computer geek perspective, that's pretty cool.

I was just reading about the NHTBus this morning for the frist time and you can hook it up to a network hub. I don't know how the controller would react but the documentation did say that you could use a hub. It also said you could plug it into your IP network and the NHTBus devices would suck up an IP address from your DHCP server, if you have one. From the computer geek perspective, that's pretty cool.

Indeed. Nice to see that they made it work with the usual standards rather than being some sort of proprietary "I need my own network" thing that you sometimes see in audio products (Sonos, for example).

Yeah, I was hoping for an update schema that allowed using my network via the NHT Bus connections to update the Controller firmware. A bit too complicated (and PEBKAC prone) for production I suppose, but it sounded good.

The SooperboticInjectinatorDeluxe is better than the laptop to RS232 one normally sees, except for requiring an additional purchase.

Question was more in the "will the Controller still 'control' the P5s if they are switched as opposed to directly connected?" direction.

I can't be the only person planning to use this layout...

I can't be the only person planning to use this layout...

John has stated before that he has sold and set up a few rigs with 3 pairs of Threes, a 3C, dual Power5s, and 3 W1s (with no A1s). :eek:

I am very interested in this NHT controller for my M6 LCR setup. How much do these cost new and used? Do they come up on audiogon often? What benefits would they lend to the M6's inparticular?

Thanks,
MF

I haven't tried mine with M6s, but I have M5s.

It is my humble opinion that the Controller's Deq prolly benefits the Evolutions less than any other passive NHT speaker line since the Evos already have some handy "room tuning" options engineered and built right into them anyway.

One thing is that you don't have to use an X1 with Evo subs with the Controller, but it has already been established that the X1 does a better job with them than the Controller anyway.

John has stated before that he has sold and set up a few rigs with 3 pairs of Threes, a 3C, dual Power5s, and 3 W1s (with no A1s). :eek:


Ya, no doubt the amps will take the signal and drive the speakers...just wondering about the idle cutoffs and other 'Controllable' features of having them connected.

Really a silly question, I suppose.

I haven't tried mine with M6s, but I have M5s.

It is my humble opinion that the Controller's Deq prolly benefits the Evolutions less than any other passive NHT speaker line since the Evos already have some handy "room tuning" options engineered and built right into them anyway.

One thing is that you don't have to use an X1 with Evo subs with the Controller, but it has already been established that the X1 does a better job with them than the Controller anyway.
Interesting comments about the controller relative to the Evos series, thanks Mark. Besides the Deq benefits, how does the NHT controller stack up against other quality Pre-pro's SQ wise?
FWIW, I actually am using a JL Audio F113 for my sub at this point and do not use the X1 crossover.

MF

Besides the Deq benefits, how does the NHT controller stack up against other quality Pre-pro's SQ wise?

Well I really can't answer that, cause other than the NHT Controller (for obvious reasons), I simply would not put that much $$$ into a pre-pro. However, I do have a NAD Silverline S170 that I bought used, which was highly regarded a few years back, and the Controller is better IMO, even on plain old 2-channel (as it should be better anyway on movies since it has newer, upgraded chips, DACs, formats, features, etc.).

Kal said in his review that it was as good as any pre-pro he has ever heard at any price, and he used Paradigms with it instead of NHTs, so he didn't even get the chance to try out the built in NHT model specific Deq. IOW, he tested it out completely on it's on merits simply as a pre-pro. :cool:

http://www.nhthifi.com/2006/press/reviews/new/Controller-P5.pdf

Ya, no doubt the amps will take the signal and drive the speakers...just wondering about the idle cutoffs and other 'Controllable' features of having them connected.

Really a silly question, I suppose.

Nah, actually, it's a very good question, which I'll defer to John since he has been there/done that. ;)

Nah, actually, it's a very good question, which I'll defer to John since he has been there/done that. ;)


I was rather hoping the question might bring an AWOL Hidley out of whatever hole John has driven him into...even if just to say "Read the bloody manual!".

:D

i have been thinking about buying classic 4s, 3c and biammping with x1 and a1. but i have also been interested in going with 3s, 3c and some good subwoofer(s) the dual w1s, a1s and x1 sounds like a very good idea. would substituting svs for w1s also be good? i am upgrading from a 1st generation nht vt-1 so i am sure any combination is going to sound great. i am certainly glad to have found this forum with its helpful insights and knowledgable people.

what we're talking about here is basically a Classic version of the T5. :cool:.


I still think this will be the upgrade for the M5 and M6.
Allen

Or better yet, just get Threes with Evo subs. ;)Now why didn't I think of that? Oh, wait...I did! And the 3s with U2 sound great.

If I had another $1K, however, the 4s with a U2 (or for even more 4s, U1, extra A1, extra W1) would probably sound better. Add a controller... But for that much money, Xd's aren't far away.

I was rather hoping the question might bring an AWOL Hidley out of whatever hole John has driven him into...even if just to say "Read the bloody manual!".

:D

I suspect NHT must be finalizing another product. Jack seems to reappear about the time a product is finalized and starts the production cycle, or about 1 month before a product is announced for availability. Either that or he pissed off his new wife :)

Well, I hope he doesn't post about it, and no one discusses it. Because the 'Bott will have to close your thread if you talk about new products.Hey guys...Please take this to the Ascend forum as this product is not even out yet and as such, seeing this is a support area, we would need to keep it to support and help. We really are not about product hype in the speaker area seeing speakers are so subjective.

Thank you.

__________________
David Bott
AVS Forum Admin

But for that much money, Xd's aren't far away.

Bingo! We have another winner! :cool:

i have been thinking about buying classic 4s, 3c and biammping with x1 and a1. but i have also been interested in going with 3s, 3c and some good subwoofer(s) the dual w1s, a1s and x1 sounds like a very good idea. would substituting svs for w1s also be good? i am upgrading from a 1st generation nht vt-1 so i am sure any combination is going to sound great. i am certainly glad to have found this forum with its helpful insights and knowledgable people.

Lets put it this way, the "best" sub I have (at least according to those who hang out in the sub forum here) in terms of ultimate output and extension is the SVS PB12 Ultra/2, but I much prefer dual W1s for music, and as soon as I get the 20 Hz mod done to at least one X1 (or two), that will prolly also be the case for movies as well. :cool:

Even after the 20 Hz X1 mod, the SVS will still have the advantage in terms of output and extension, but I would gladly trade a little of that for what I perceive to be the better accuracy of the W1s. ;)

As always, YMMV. :p

I suspect NHT must be finalizing another product.

Maybe it's a new Evolution line. :D

Maybe it's a new Evolution line. :D

Don't say that! :mad: I'm receiving my Evos next week.

Don't say that! :mad: I'm receiving my Evos next week.

Don't worry, I would be very surprised if that were actually the case, but even if it were true, so what? The M5s you have on the way will still sound the same as when you heard them and choose them in the first place.

Just remember, newer is not necessarily always better. In fact, from my perspective, even though the new Classic 3C is obviously a superior CC speaker than the Super Audio's SC-2 was, I personally think the SB-3s and ST-4s just flat out do rock music better than the newer Threes and Fours do.

I'd pick the SB3 over the C3 only without a sub. With a sub, the c3 is superior.

I'd imagine the C4 is superior to the ST-4 in most scenarios, but have no firsthand knowledge...

Someone here got a Controller off the 'bay for a lot less than that. (not me though :( :mad: )

Yeah I almost snapped that up for $800 if for no other reason than to turn it around. But the seller didn't have nearly enough feedback for me to dump that kinda change.

Don't worry, I would be very surprised if that were actually the case, but even if it were true, so what? The M5s you have on the way will still sound the same as when you heard them and choose them in the first place.

Just remember, newer is not necessarily always better. In fact, from my perspective, even though the new Classic 3C is obviously a superior CC speaker than the Super Audio's SC-2 was, I personally think the SB-3s and ST-4s just flat out do rock music better than the newer Threes and Fours do.

Speakers are probably the one component in your home theater that can last the longest. It's not like a receiver where there is something new every couple years. Sure there are eventually changes in technology that outdate old speaker technology but the development certainly isn't as rapid as other components.

Besides, I know it's just speculation anyway. :)

Speakers are probably the one component in your home theater that can last the longest. It's not like a receiver where there is something new every couple years. Sure there are eventually changes in technology that outdate old speaker technology but the development certainly isn't as rapid as other components.

Besides, I know it's just speculation anyway. :)


Not so sure about this. I have had my Denon 5700 for 10 years I think but have had NHT vs2's, 2.9's, M5's and now M6 for my speakers.
Allen

Basically you need to remove the 6 phillips head screws that attach the driver to the cabinet. The driver is flush mounted and a tight fit, the trick is to coax it out without marring the baffle. In as much as your current driver is damaged anyway, I would probably set the speaker on it on its side, grab ahold of the rubber surround wit both hands and pull. Once extracted, remove the spade connectors form the old driver (needle nosed pliers could help) and attach to the new driver. Put the speaker on a soft surface on its back, align the holes and replace the screws. Snug in a criss-cross pattern, do not over-tighten and strip the holes, better to have to retighten after a few hours of play. About a 15 minute job.

Just wanted to drop in and say thanks again for taking the time to give me a walkthrough. Easy as pie. Off to wire it up and see how it sounds...

How do these compare in price, performance? I heard some M5's yesterday and they were really nice.

bob

How do these compare in price, performance? I heard some M5's yesterday and they were really nice.

bob

Retail price is close, Three = $400 each, M5 = $450 each. The 3C center channel speaker to match the Threes is $600, while another M5 mounted horizontally for a CC speaker as a LCR is still $450, so call price basically a push. :)

In a nutshell, the Three will have wider soundstaging and more detail/resolution (not that the M5 is exactly lacking in detail itself), while the M5 will play louder and has better dynamics, and more focused, direct imaging (not that the Three doesn't also image very well itself either).

For music, IMO, think of like this, classical music will prolly sound better on Threes to *most* people, while Ozzy and AC/DC will prolly sound better to *most* people on M5s.

For movies, again, IMO, *most* people will prolly say that the Threes have wider soundstaging for a bigger, well damped room where you have a lot of seats spread out for several people to watch the movie, and *most* people will prolly say that the M5 is better in a reflective room (hard wood floors, lots of glass, etc) with it's more precise, direct imaging, or in a smaller room where not as many seats are required for fewer people to watch the movie. I think *most* people would prolly agree that M5s are better than Threes on dynamic action movie sound tracks as well with lots of explosions and gunfire, etc..

Another thing if it matters, the M5 has a true on-wall surround speaker available in black, silver, or white, the L5, which perfectly matches it sonically, while the Three doesn't really have a true on-wall matching surround.

The Three needs to be in a well damped room (carpeted, upholstered furniture, curtain & drapes, etc.) mounted on stands out away from the wall to sound it's best, whereas the M5 has some built in room tuning options via it's virtual focused image geometry and boundary compensation mode to deal with some problematic room placement situations such as a reflective room, or shelf/cabinet mounting or close to wall placement.

I have both (for now anyway), and I myself like the M5s better.

Here is what the man himself, Jack H, said about them:

I prefer the M5 over the M6.

The M5 and Three are different speakers, designed for different purposes. The M5 plays louder and works better in reflective rooms. The Three has better imaging, and smoother off axis response. Without knowing what the application is, I don't have a preference.

Anytime a loudspeaker is designed, the designer designs it to have a target frequency response with it positioned at some particular place in the room. If this location is far away from boundaries, then when you move that speaker near a wall, it will get very heavy or thick sounding. If that location is very close to boundaries, then the speaker will sound very thin when pulled away from the walls.

For instance the L5 is designed to have flat response when mounted directly against the wall.

And here is what another poster here, Mike, said about the Fours Vs the T5s (which is basically the same thing as like the Threes vs the M5s):


RANKING
Here's my list using John's method of rating:

*In FR accuracy/integration it goes T5, 2.9, Four
*In treble and midrange resolution, it goes Four, T5, 2.9
*In bass quality, it goes T5, 2.9, Four
*In bass output/dynamics, it goes T5, 2.9, Four
*In soundstage, it goes Four, T5, 2.9
*In imaging precision, it goes T5, Four, 2.9
*In sweetspot, it goes T5, 2.9, Four

So using a 3pts, 2pts, 1pt scoring it comes to:
T5s: 19 pts
C4s: 12 pts
2.9s: 11 pts

NOTES:
*The Mid/Treble on the Classics are more refined and I can listen to Three/Fours hours on end without fatigue - I cannot say this about the others.
*The Evo's bass is spot on and only the 1259 subs in the 3.3s are comparable. I'm sorry but I really do not like the Four's bass - I'm a sealed sub dude all the way & I'm sure some of my lack of excitement for the Fours bass is the ported design - if I use X2 I can get the Fours closer to the tight, sealed sound I prefer - I also thought OVERALL bass dynamics were lacking on Fours (this is opposite Johns opinion). So just to offset my subjective opinion I've measured using a meter and SPLs were pretty equal across the 40-80Hz range, but the Fours could not compete below 40hz.
*Soundstage is equally impressive on all speakers IF I sit in sweetspot, but if I move around or for multi-person HT use the Classics take the prize.
*Imaging of Evo's blew me away once I properly setup - I was not ready for this, but only a proper setup pair of 3.3s will compete.


RECAP:
That said - here's my ultimate setup/wish list for now:

*2CH - I'm spoiled but it is a two-way tie, so I need two listening rooms based on how I feel:
System A (rock / percussion): M5's with B6 bottom
System B (other listening): C3's with B6 bottom (or new C5s) :cool:
..My assumption here is that the B6 is as good as or better than a B5.

*For HT - I'm of the opinion the EVO's take the prize where ultimate imaging is required like small HTs, but for all around HT or where you have 6-8 listeners the Classics will do a better all around job....

Mike

And here was my response to Mike's post quoted above:

GREAT post/write up Mike, and your thoughts are VERY similar to mine. In fact, they are about as identical as it gets. About the only thing I would dissent on is that I don't find the Evos to be fatiguing in the least. 2.9s, yeah, but not the Evos. Didn't you say you had Yammy and Onk receivers on the Evos? If so, that might be the cause right there.

A M5 unfortunately will not bolt on to a B6, but dual W1s are better anyway.

I've spent a little more time with them now, and I don't think the Fours bass, even with the Controller's Deq, is quite as good as the T5's (or even the 2.9's for that matter) without the Deq, but it's really not that bad for music. The guy who reviewed them in HTM basically said about the same thing as your measurements of the Fours below 40 Hz confirmed. He said that they went down into the 30s in his room.

As you said though, an X2/A1(s) set up would help level the playing field somewhat between the Fours and T5s.

Yeah I almost snapped that up for $800 if for no other reason than to turn it around. But the seller didn't have nearly enough feedback for me to dump that kinda change.

Yeah, it had a BIN of like $810 I think it was, or something like that, with free shipping to boot, but in addition to feedback, the payment methods of MO or check with no paypal made me wary of it.

I just hope the winner has no problems with it.

I'd pick the SB3 over the C3 only without a sub. With a sub, the c3 is superior.

What about specifically for hard rock music?

Sure there are eventually changes in technology that outdate old speaker technology ...

Like Xds. :D

Retail price is close, Three = $400 each, M5 = $450 each. The 3C center channel speaker to match the Threes is $600, while another M5 mounted horizontally for a CC speaker as a LCR is still $450, so call price basically a push. :)

In a nutshell, the Three will have wider soundstaging and more detail/resolution (not that the M5 is exactly lacking in detail itself), while the M5 will play louder and has better dynamics, and more focused, direct imaging (not that the Three doesn't also image very well itself either).


And here was my response to Mike's post quoted above:


Thanks,

So the 3's would be more revealing and detailed vs laid back? (brighter)

thx

bob

I think the Threes are actually a little more laid back *and* more revealing at the same time. I feel that the M5 sounds a little better tuned and more mature whereas the Three outperforms it in most every way *except* for accuracy/integration (though not by a lot).

... whereas the Three outperforms it in most every way *except* for accuracy/integration (though not by a lot).

Don't forget dynamics John, and it's not even close in that regard. ;)

M5s also have better dead center sweet spot imaging too, whereas Threes have a wider "sweetspot".

If everything works out as planned, I have now reached a tentative agreement to trade a Four based Classic 5.1 system for a 6.1 Revel Concerta F12 based system.

http://www.revelspeakers.com/products/product-series.asp?series=Concerta

It will break down like this, I'll send out:
Fours
3C
one pair of Threes
Twelve sub

and will get back:
F12 mains
C12 center
three S12 surrounds
B12 sub

I'll be keeping my X2, as I can still use it on 3.3s, 2.9s, ST-4s, or VT-1.4s, and interestingly enough, I will still have 2 pairs of Threes (four total speakers), so all I would have to do is add another 3C if I ever wanted to do up another Classic based surround system. ;)

Not knocking the Fours, or the Classics in general, in any way as it's all subjective, and I can certainly see how some listeners would like them, but they just aren't for me. In a way, I now regret ever trading a VT-3 based system for them. :( :mad: :o

Like Xds. :D

Well, there is a reason I have not listened to any Xds yet. ;) I guess I was just trying to talk myself out of looking for more speakers the day after I get the M5s setup. So what you guys are saying, is that will never happen. :D

What about specifically for hard rock music?

I don't listen to much metal, but I listen to some hard rock. I still prefer the C3s + sub to the SB3s + sub because of the detail and slightly brighter balance, but I can see why some people might just want to pump up the volume of the SB3s and dance around... My priorities for hard rock are probably not those of the big hard rock fans.

I also think that the U1 complements the C3 quite well, making up for any shortcomings it has against the SB3 while retainign the C3's advantages.

if i get dual w1s to go with my classic 3s and 3c, instead of a1 could i substitute an emotiva lpa-17 to power both or should i use two emotiva's bpa-1. any other suggestion on this would be appreciated. also what stands mate the best looks wise with the 3's. alimental mentioned target piano black which sounded good.

Don't forget dynamics John, and it's not even close in that regard. ;)

M5s also have better dead center sweet spot imaging too, whereas Threes have a wider "sweetspot".

If everything works out as planned, I have now reached a tentative agreement to trade a Four based Classic 5.1 system for a 6.1 Revel Concerta F12 based system.

http://www.revelspeakers.com/products/product-series.asp?series=Concerta

It will break down like this, I'll send out:
Fours
3C
one pair of Threes
Twelve sub

and will get back:
F12 mains
C12 center
three S12 surrounds
B12 sub

I'll be keeping my X2, as I can still use it on 3.3s, 2.9s, ST-4s, or VT-1.4s, and interestingly enough, I will still have 2 pairs of Threes (four total speakers), so all I would have to do is add another 3C if I ever wanted to do up another Classic based surround system. ;)

Not knocking the Fours, or the Classics in general, in any way as it's all subjective, and I can certainly see how some listeners would like them, but they just aren't for me. In a way, I now regret ever trading a VT-3 based system for them. :( :mad: :o

Interesting. I looked and listened to the rather generic-looking and bulky Concerta series a while back and to me their sonic signature was similar to the Reference Studio stuff from Paradigm. The Revel's sounded pretty darned good (hooked up to some Rotel mid-priced separates), and the Paradigm's (Studio Reference V.4) even better. I seriously considered the new Paradigms (both Studio 60 and 100-based sytems) but then again it really is all quite subjective. To my ears the NHT Classic 4 system offered the best cost/performance balance that I was looking for in the crowded mid-end market.

if i get dual w1s to go with my classic 3s and 3c, instead of a1 could i substitute an emotiva lpa-17 to power both or should i use two emotiva's bpa-1. any other suggestion on this would be appreciated. also what stands mate the best looks wise with the 3's. alimental mentioned target piano black which sounded good.

I see no reason why the Emotiva wouldn't work (though I didn't se an lpa-17 listed), as long as the impedances of the W1s aren't a problem and the amp has sufficient power. With their 30 day guarantee, no reason not to try it if you were curious.

Although on the other hand, the A1 is tried and true...

I guess I was just trying to talk myself out of looking for more speakers the day after I get the M5s setup. So what you guys are saying, is that will never happen. :D

No, never! But as I have found out the hard way, sometimes the grass is not always greener. :o

I also think that the U1 complements the C3 quite well, making up for any shortcomings it has against the SB3 ...

I would sure hope so! :p

if i get dual w1s to go with my classic 3s and 3c, instead of a1 could i substitute an emotiva lpa-17 to power both or should i use two emotiva's bpa-1. any other suggestion on this would be appreciated.

Just make sure the emotiva is at least 250 watts per channel at 6 Ohms, but Matt said it best:

Although on the other hand, the A1 is tried and true...

Plus, not only does it match the X1/X2 cosmetically, each A1 has a sweet little row of lights under it which illuminates the controls of the X1 or X2 placed below it. :cool:

Interesting. I looked and listened to the rather generic-looking and bulky Concerta series a while back

The Classics do look much better than the Concertas (and the Evolutions too for that matter), no doubt about that that, but honestly, I could care less about how a speaker looks as compared to how it sounds. At first I even thought Xds were fugly, but their looks actually sort of grow on you. :)

but then again it really is all quite subjective.

Bingo! We have another winner! ;)

I'm not going to say anything else about the Revels on this thread after this, and I'm sure as hell not going to outright bad mouth NHT in any way as they are still my favorite speaker company by far, but way back early on on this thread, I mentioned how I liked the Revel M12 better than the Three the first time I heard it (or the SB3 too for that matter), and the F12 better than the ST4 (the Four still hadn't even come out at that point).

The real surprise though was the B12 sub. It is much better than the Twelve. Interestingly enough, it's sealed! In fact, I'd go so far as to say that two B12s would be comparable to a dual A1 stereo U2 set. They don't have anything like the X1 for bass control, but they do have a parametric room correction Eq that seems to work just as well, if not even better.

I didn't initiate the VT3 for Classics trade, but I did initiate this one. It took a while to agree to terms as the other party wanted 2 pairs of Threes for a 7.1 set up in exchange for the 3 S12s in a 6.1 set up, but I held steady on only 1 pair of Threes since the Fours retailed for more than the F12s. The S12 surrounds each have two inputs and can actually be used as a "dual" surround speaker in a 7.1 set up (such as the rear center speaker actually being two channels), but I plan on picking up one more of them for a full on 7.1 set up as well as another B12 sub. The fact that the S12 is wall mountable was just the icing on the cake.

Besides, I wanted to keep the option open to still have two pairs of Threes, one pair from the system I got in the VT3 system trade, and the pair I originally had, so all I'd have to do is pick up a 3C to do up another Classic surround set and add some Evo subs to them, which would trump the Fours anyway.

For that matter, I could also do up a Super Audio surround set up by picking up a CC speaker for them as I still have a pair each of SB3s and ST4s. In fact, that's actually what I'm leaning towards doing with the Controller and Power5 now since I feel that the Controllers Deq benefited the ST4s more than anything else, but I'd prolly get a M6 for the CC though.

I feel better about dealing the VT3s now. After all, I still have a set. :D Then again, I'd have never traded a VT-3 set in the first place anyway if it were the only one I had. :p

I didn't initiate the VT3 for Classics trade, but I did initiate this one.

At least one of you is getting an upgrade ;) Just kidding. It's good to have variety, you're going to OD on NHT one of these days :D

On another subject, I've been talking with Esa about what the Controller needs, so if you have requests, let me know and I'll forward them.

The new software apparently has more fine tuned NHT EQ than the first generation, according to Esa, and he says everyone with NHT speakers should get it. Esa is being very cool and open about product improvement, which is fantastic.

I indirectly got the sense that NHT and/or Vinci is afraid that showing correction curves would be misconstrued by potential speaker customers as "inaccurate without EQ" rather than "sounds great without EQ, but check this out!" I think most people realize that no speaker is perfectly accurate and, for me, the graphs are to help sell the Controller after people have or plan on buying NHTs, not to spring on people while they're looking at speakers. We'll see there, but a compromise could be made in some sort of "demo mode" or "preset" that allows the change to be heard, rather than drawing it out in black/white, or maybe show the results from the listening position how the NHT EQ helps the in room response with its global changes. But they're listening and that's good. I guess they just want to step cautiously in this regard.

At least one of you is getting an upgrade ;)

I was just practicing what I preach. Remember a while back when B4Z just kept going on and on about how much he wanted to like the Classics, but couldn't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by b4z
... but I REALLY want to like these speakers
and feel I should give them a fair shake.

If you don't like them, then why keep trying to? Forget about 'em and move on. :p

My priority is rock music, and even you must admit John, that's simply just not the Classics's forte.

On another subject, I've been talking with Esa about what the Controller needs, so if you have requests, let me know and I'll forward them.

Room correction!

The new software apparently has more fine tuned NHT EQ than the first generation, according to Esa, and he says everyone with NHT speakers should get it. Esa is being very cool and open about product improvement, which is fantastic.

I indirectly got the sense that NHT and/or Vinci is afraid that showing correction curves would be misconstrued by potential speaker customers as "inaccurate without EQ" rather than "sounds great without EQ, but check this out!" I think most people realize that no speaker is perfectly accurate and, for me, the graphs are to help sell the Controller after people have or plan on buying NHTs, not to spring on people while they're looking at speakers. We'll see there, but a compromise could be made in some sort of "demo mode" or "preset" that allows the change to be heard, rather than drawing it out in black/white, or maybe show the results from the listening position how the NHT EQ helps the in room response with its global changes. But they're listening and that's good. I guess they just want to step cautiously in this regard.

Yeah, I noticed on Kal's review of it linked from the NHT site, they removed what Esa said about what the Controller actually does.

My priority is rock music, and even you must admit John, that's simply just not the Classics's forte.

Depends on the music! But I know what you mean.

Room correction!

I've got it on my list!

Yeah, I noticed on Kal's review of it linked from the NHT site, they removed what Esa said about what the Controller actually does.

Well, I have to be careful too, I'm not going to say what they will or will not do (because I really don't know), just that they're being really open-minded about things and really looking at the *right* way to do things. Many things are possible, but they seem to be very deliberate about how they are doing things, rather than tossing stuff out. For the most part, all this will have to be one-directional.

Depends on the music! But I know what you mean.

Put on a well recorded/re-mixed/remastered CD of Ted Nugent's "Stranglehold" and compare the long, extended guitar solo in it between the M5s/T5s and Threes/Fours. Then you'll know for sure. ;)


Well, I have to be careful too, I'm not going to say what they will or will not do (because I really don't know), just that they're being really open-minded about things and really looking at the *right* way to do things. Many things are possible, but they seem to be very deliberate about how they are doing things, rather than tossing stuff out. For the most part, all this will have to be one-directional.

Yeah, I guess this is sort of a basic catch-22, chicken or the egg type of situation of how to try to best market it to potential future owners of NHT speakers.

I'd kill for B&W curves. It would triple my Controller sales!

What you really need to send sales through the roof is a digital path AVR of about 100 or so watts per channel, and a 2 channel integrated amp (or at least a pre-amp to go with the Power2) by NHT with the model specific Deq like the Controller's built into each. :D

Speaking of which, holy crap, that new B&W CM1 sure could use a big dose of Controller EQ! +/-5dB, so that makes the Threes +/- 2dB seem pretty flat and not terribly needy.

I know this could be good or bad news depending on if/when you bought Classics, but NHT is having a summer deal that gives you a free center speaker with the purchase of the other 4.1 speakers. I guess that's a "buy 4.1, get 1.0 free" :) I guess that is good for those on the fence, no?

Don't forget dynamics John, and it's not even close in that regard. ;)

M5s also have better dead center sweet spot imaging too, whereas Threes have a wider "sweetspot".

If everything works out as planned, I have now reached a tentative agreement to trade a Four based Classic 5.1 system for a 6.1 Revel Concerta F12 based system.

http://www.revelspeakers.com/products/product-series.asp?series=Concerta

It will break down like this, I'll send out:
Fours
3C
one pair of Threes
Twelve sub

and will get back:
F12 mains
C12 center
three S12 surrounds
B12 sub

I'll be keeping my X2, as I can still use it on 3.3s, 2.9s, ST-4s, or VT-1.4s, and interestingly enough, I will still have 2 pairs of Threes (four total speakers), so all I would have to do is add another 3C if I ever wanted to do up another Classic based surround system. ;)

Not knocking the Fours, or the Classics in general, in any way as it's all subjective, and I can certainly see how some listeners would like them, but they just aren't for me. In a way, I now regret ever trading a VT-3 based system for them. :( :mad: :o


Mark are you going to use the controller and power 5 and power 2 with your new system.
Allen

Anyone tried to run Super Zeroes off a T-amp? I'm thinking about that for a cheap office system for laptop/mp3 player, but I have no clue if it is technically viable. Thanks.

Should work. I used to run them off a 20W NAD. Not the loudest system and the amp gave up first, but it played plenty loud if alcohol wasn't involved!

Should work. I used to run them off a 20W NAD. Not the loudest system and the amp gave up first, but it played plenty loud if alcohol wasn't involved! Cool...and I try to limit the boozing while working, so that shouldn't be an issue. :)

Cool...and I try to limit the boozing while working, so that shouldn't be an issue. :)

Let me know how that works out for you. The T-amp, not the limiting booze. No real interest in the latter, but I was curious how the T-amp would do driving (what I'm guesing would be classified as) "medium effeciency" speakers.

On another subject, I've been talking with Esa about what the Controller needs, so if you have requests, let me know and I'll forward them.

I've thought of a couple more, how about a 20 Hz filter for Evo subs if you aren't using an X1?

Also, if possible, having the speaker wizard Deq also applied to the zone/room 2 outputs just in case, for example, you have a surround set up of Super Audios or Classics, but a dedicated 2 channel rig with 3.3s? :D

I'd kill for B&W curves. It would triple my Controller sales!

But the flip side of that coin is that it might would kill your speaker sales if they measured like B&Ws!

At least then they might get better reviews though, right? :p

Mark are you going to use the controller and power 5 and power 2 with your new system.
Allen

Allen, I'm planning on keeping Harman with Harman by using the HK AVR 8000 with the Revels:

http://manuals.harman.com/HK/Product%20Information/AVR8000PI.pdf

It was HK's top dog a few years ago, and IMO it is even better than the NAD T773. HK's subsequent flagship AVRs, starting with the 7200/7300 were not quite up to this one.

It's processing is getting a little long in the tooth, but it's analog pre-amp and power amp sections are damned near separates quality. I plan on using the much newer (thus better chips, DACs, features, formats, etc.) HK AVR645 I picked up for the NAD T753 in that VT-3 deal to do all surround processing and to power the rear channels since the 8000 is only 5 channels. I'll need to pick up a Sony TA-P9000ES analog multi-channel pre-amp to tie them together. ;)

Right now, I'm planning on using the Controller/Power5 with the ST4s and SB3s, with maybe a M6 as the CC speaker since the Controller will automatically tie them together about the reverse phase issue.

I think no other NHT speaker benefited as much from the Controller as the ST4 does.

While comparing the measurements of the F12s to the Fours from Ultimate AV, I noticed this about the Fours:

"These curves suggest that you might not want to choose an ear position much below the tweeter, where there is a response suckout centered at 5.5kHz, but once that limit is observed the optimum vertical listening window should be easy to accommodate".

Taken from:

http://ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/1206nht34/index5.html

I imagine this might also equally apply to the 3C as well if you have it on top of the TV. Maybe it might be a good idea to turn it so that the tweeter is under the mid driver (just as you would a M5/6) if you have it on top and it's above ear level, or better yet, get it under the TV with the tweeter up over the mid.

FWIW.

I know this could be good or bad news depending on if/when you bought Classics, but NHT is having a summer deal that gives you a free center speaker with the purchase of the other 4.1 speakers. I guess that's a "buy 4.1, get 1.0 free" :) I guess that is good for those on the fence, no?

Man, if I had just bought a full set from an authorized dealer just right before this, I would be pissed about the procrastinators/fence straddlers actually being rewarded for it! :mad:

Like you said, I guess it just depends on your perspective. :p

This is for a 3C if you get Threes/Fours, correct? Cause they've already done that with Twos/2C before if I'm not mistaken.

I imagine this might also equally apply to the 3C as well if you have it on top of the TV. Maybe it might be a good idea to turn it so that the tweeter is under the mid driver (just as you would a M5/6) if you have it on top and it's above ear level, or better yet, get it under the TV with the tweeter up over the mid.

The 3C has an adjustable "leg" at it's rear so that it can pointed down as much as necessary for an ideal listening position.

Allen, I'm planning on keeping Harman with Harman by using the HK AVR 8000 with the Revels:

http://manuals.harman.com/HK/Product%20Information/AVR8000PI.pdf

It was HK's top dog a few years ago, and IMO it is even better than the NAD T773. HK's subsequent flagship AVRs, starting with the 7200/7300 were not quite up to this one.

It's processing is getting a little long in the tooth, but it's analog pre-amp and power amp sections are damned near separates quality. I plan on using the much newer (thus better chips, DACs, features, formats, etc.) HK AVR645 I picked up for the NAD T753 in that VT-3 deal to do all surround processing and to power the rear channels since the 8000 is only 5 channels. I'll need to pick up a Sony TA-P9000ES analog multi-channel pre-amp to tie them together. ;)

Right now, I'm planning on using the Controller/Power5 with the ST4s and SB3s, with maybe a M6 as the CC speaker since the Controller will automatically tie them together about the reverse phase issue.

I think no other NHT speaker benefited as much from the Controller as the ST4 does.You're right about the AVR 8000. I have one as well. The nice thing about it is that all 5 channels of the power amp section have preamp in jacks so you can use this unit as a standalone power amp if you want to. I think it's rated at 110 watts channel with all 5 channels loaded. Very powerful and sounds good too.

I've thought of a couple more, how about a 20 Hz filter for Evo subs if you aren't using an X1?


Seconded...LOUDLY.

Would also like to see a second sub out for stereo bass. Wouldn't that, along with Mark's suggestion, basically eliminate all need for an X1 if a Controller is present? It would require quite a lot of work I suppose, since it is more than a software issue, but we are wishlisting, right? Maybe in the Mark II release...

The 3C has an adjustable "leg" at it's rear so that it can pointed down as much as necessary for an ideal listening position.

As do the M5/6 if you use them as a horizontal CC, but you still have to place them that way due to their virtual focused image geometry. ;)

You're right about the AVR 8000. I have one as well. The nice thing about it is that all 5 channels of the power amp section have preamp in jacks so you can use this unit as a standalone power amp if you want to. I think it's rated at 110 watts channel with all 5 channels loaded. Very powerful and sounds good too.

Take a look at HTM's bench test measurement ratings of it's spec:

"This graph shows that the AVR 8000's left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 133.5 watts and 1% distortion at 159.9 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 240.8 watts and 1% distortion at 275.7 watts. With five channels driving 8-ohm loads, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 126.6 watts and 1% distortion at 142.9 watts."

http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/150/index2.html

Like I said before, near separates quality, since it clearly is just as powerful as a 125 x 5 separate power amp.

It also has a very, very good if not great analog pre-amp section too.

Seconded...LOUDLY.

Would also like to see a second sub out for stereo bass. Wouldn't that, along with Mark's suggestion, basically eliminate all need for an X1 if a Controller is present? It would require quite a lot of work I suppose, since it is more than a software issue, but we are wishlisting, right? Maybe in the Mark II release...

I maybe wrong, but I think these suggestions are for software only. :o

You can still do stereo bass, like with T6s, but you have to use an X1. None other than Jack himself has already confirmed that the X1 is better than the Controller without one on the Evo subs anyway.

The next software update for the Controller already has the +6dB subwoofer level calibration bug fixed.

Any Evolution subwoofer used with the Controller and without an X1 will still have a -3dB point of 26.50123456Hz:)

For the Controller to provide the +12dB of bass boost to make an Evolution subwoofer flat, the digital filter gain must be reduced by 12dB on all channels. This means a 12dB lower s/n ratio on all channels. Almost all d/a and a/d converters operate off of a single 5V supply. This severely limits their maximum dynamic range. It doesn't matter how many bits the converters are.

The X1 operates off of +/-15V rails. It has much more dynamic range capability than any digital circuit. With the X1 we can afford to use 12 or 18dB of boost and still have adequate dynamic range.

The analog filters themselves in the X1 are slightly more accurate than the digital filters in the Controller. This has to do with the type of digital filtering used. A more accurate filter design could be used, but it would have a greater overall latency.

With the X1, you can manually tweak the high and low pass filters to get perfect response in your room. This is not possible with the Controller.

For the reasons stated above I think using the X1 is better than letting the Controller do the processing.

I prefer to have physical knobs to turn to adjust the overall bass level and LFE level. However, most installers prefer to have less controls for the customer to mess with. They prefer to let the Controller do the processing because of this.

I don't have any issue with the high pass outputs of the X1 changing the sound of the signal passing through them, other than the fact that they are filtering out all of the bass. There is much less signal processing going on in the high pass outputs than in any preamp I've ever seen.

I maybe wrong, but I think these suggestions are for software only. :o

You mean they won't change the chassis, backplane and other stuff just because I want them too? By next Thursday and for $800 dollars less? :)

You can still do stereo bass, like with T6s, but you have to use an X1. None other than Jack himself has already confirmed that the X1 is better than the Controller without one on the Evo subs anyway.

That's the current plan. I am always looking for ways to save rack space. One would have thought a 42 would be plenty! :confused:

It's a sickness.

So how would I go about setting up the Controller WITH the X1 and the T6 system? I currently have a splitter on the sub out port of the controller going to the A1 amps. Sorry if this is a dumb/repetitive question!

You mean they won't change the chassis, backplane and other stuff just because I want them too? By next Thursday and for $800 dollars less? :)



That's the current plan. I am always looking for ways to save rack space. One would have thought a 42 would be plenty! :confused:

It's a sickness.

Oh, don't get me wrong here, I couldn't agree with you more. I wish the Controller would have not only came with dual sub outs, but also an option to make them be separate L/R sub outs at that (for true stereo bass like when using with T6s for example), but after Jack's comments which I quoted in my last post, it simply wasn't as big an issue with me any more after that. In fact, even before Jack made that comment, I had already stated here that I felt the X1 was better anyway.

Another thing I wish the Controller had, was at least a set of main L/R fully balanced XLR pre-outs, like for when using with Xds. :(

So how would I go about setting up the Controller WITH the X1 and the T6 system? I currently have a splitter on the sub out port of the controller going to the A1 amps. Sorry if this is a dumb/repetitive question!

Run main L/R pre-outs from the Controller into the main L/R pre-ins on the X1,

run the main L/R high pass pre-outs from the X1 to the corresponding inputs of the Power5 (or whatever power amp you are using) driving the M6s,

run the sub-outs from the X1 into the corresponding L/R A1's inputs,

set the Controller's speaker wizard for the main L/R to Evolution, T6,

finally, set high and low pass filters on X1 to 80 Hz (or whatever setting you personally like them best at) along with both master and LFE gains to your preference. Also set phase and boundary Eq to the settings which work best in your room. Remember to set X1 to stereo mode, and that's it, you're done!

What I'm not really sure of though, since it's not really covered in the manual, and I've personally never tried it myself so I can't speak from experience, is that do you also run the sub-out from the Controller into the LFE in on the X1, and set the speaker wizard's sub selection to Evolution T6/U1 with X1 too? :confused:

Maybe Jack can shed more light on that for us. :)

Maybe Jack can shed more light on that for us. :)


John's gone and finally kidnapped him without hope of release until he promises to design a Five.


:)

John's gone and finally kidnapped him without hope of release until he promises to design a Five. :)

Funny, I figured when it finally happened it would be for the Super Xd, not the Five :-)

That restraining order obviously didn't do much good. :p

First a response to the growth of popularity of NHT a few posts ago - don't forget that Stereophile raved about the Super Zeros about 10 years ago.

Secondly, I just read the review of the Verve line in the latest Sound & Vision of June 2007. They got the Sound & Vision Certified & Recommended stamp.

Has anyone heard these, or better yet, have them? Any opinions/reviews?

Winovin,

I've heard them! I actually own some. They sound quite good and take up no floor space.

Winovin,

I've heard them! I actually own some. They sound quite good and take up no floor space.

really?
you didn't seem like the 'NHT sort of guy' to me, but cool.
glad to hear that you liked them.
you should also familiarize yourself with some of the other speakers in their line. perhaps one day even talk the director of engineering (I can't promise he'll speak to you though).

So Jack (or anyone else) what do you think the answer to Mark Russ' question is?

"What I'm not really sure of though, since it's not really covered in the manual, and I've personally never tried it myself so I can't speak from experience, is that do you also run the sub-out from the Controller into the LFE in on the X1, and set the speaker wizard's sub selection to T6/U1 with X1 too?

Maybe Jack can shed more light on that for us. "

I'm going to be re-doing my rack this weekend and any suggestions greatly appreciated. Also I have 2 buttkicker amps for Berkline seats. Right now i just split the sub out on the Controller 3 times. In the X1 config above where would I take the buttkicker feed? Same place?

Thanks

PS feel free to tease us Controller owners with a vague timeframe on HDMI 1.3 upgrade - tomorrow/Thursday etc :)