Hey Jack,

Good to hear you got away. While I'm waiting for the A1 (backordered) included in my U2s, I thought I'd send in my X1 for the 20 Hz mod. Any chance our request for a switch to allow mod/volume has been heard and implemented by NHT? Also, what's the expected turn-around on this?

Thanks in advance.

Peter

Peter,

The turn around for modifying the X1 is 1-3 days.

To add a switch to adjust the cutoff from 20-26Hz, would require too many changes in the product.

NHT is having a summer deal that gives you a free center speaker with the purchase of the other 4.1 speakers.

Is this advertised on the web? Could you please post a URL. I'd like to get more details and know where to look for future promotions. I didn't find anything on NHT's web site.

They're going to start advertising it June 1, I believe, but the program has done a "soft start". Participating dealers (don't know why they wouldn't)

To add a switch to adjust the cutoff from 20-26Hz, would require too many changes in the product. Not needed either; 20hz mod is for ht use, music doesn't go below 26hz anyway. Has not been an issue at all, and the system performs much better with the mod.

Peter,

The turn around for modifying the X1 is 1-3 days.

To add a switch to adjust the cutoff from 20-26Hz, would require too many changes in the product.So what's it like down in John's basement, where we assume he held you captive? I hope he had a good system down there, at least. :D

Peter

So what's it like down in John's basement, where we assume he held you captive? I hope he had a good system down there, at least. :D

Peter

I heard that John had 2 vintage pairs of early 70's Bose 901s down there with a quadrophonic 8-track player. :p

Allen, I'm planning on keeping Harman with Harman by using the HK AVR 8000 with the Revels:

http://manuals.harman.com/HK/Product%20Information/AVR8000PI.pdf

It was HK's top dog a few years ago, and IMO it is even better than the NAD T773. HK's subsequent flagship AVRs, starting with the 7200/7300 were not quite up to this one.

It's processing is getting a little long in the tooth, but it's analog pre-amp and power amp sections are damned near separates quality. I plan on using the much newer (thus better chips, DACs, features, formats, etc.) HK AVR645 I picked up for the NAD T753 in that VT-3 deal to do all surround processing and to power the rear channels since the 8000 is only 5 channels. I'll need to pick up a Sony TA-P9000ES analog multi-channel pre-amp to tie them together. ;)

Right now, I'm planning on using the Controller/Power5 with the ST4s and SB3s, with maybe a M6 as the CC speaker since the Controller will automatically tie them together about the reverse phase issue.

I think no other NHT speaker benefited as much from the Controller as the ST4 does.



Just wanted to hear your toughts on the controller and power amps on something other than NHT.
Allen

PS feel free to tease us Controller owners with a vague timeframe on HDMI 1.3 upgrade - tomorrow/Thursday etc :)
I'd like an update as well since I'm waiting on getting a Controller so I can get 1.3 without hassle! :D

I'd also like to thank Jack again for his advice on using phase control and time delay to correct sub/sat issues. With that little bit of advice, my system sounds so solid now that you cannot tell at all where the crossover point is. The Threes are amazing and I can't wait to hear them with the Controller.

Just wanted to hear your toughts on the controller and power amps on something other than NHT.
Allen

Allen, one of these weekends, I'll move the NHT Controller/Power5 into the room with the Revels and try them out. It won't really be all that much trouble since they're so light that I wouldn't even have to unplug them from each other and could move them both at the same time together. ;) :)

I expect that the NHT electronics will still sound damned good on the Revels, as well as the Revels sounding even better on the NHT separates than they do with the HK AVR even though the NHT Deq won't apply to them. :cool:

Of course, I'm still looking forward to trying out the Deq on some older NHT models too as soon as I get the new update loaded. In particular, I suspect bass integration on the 3.3s may be noticeably better. :eek:

i had planned on getting a w1 or u1 subwoofer to go with my classic 3 system but with this summer promo i am trying to decide if i whould go with the n12 in order to take advantage of the promo. i don't really know anything about it, i was really leaning toward the w1. what does everyone think about the n12 especially against the w1 and u1.

The W1 is the actual subwoofer itself (cabinet and drivers) in the U1 system. The U1 system also comprises of the A1 amplifier and X1 active crossover.

It is far superior to a Twelve (at least, I assume you are talking about a Twelve when you say n12).

Me personally, if I had to buy a Twelve just to get a free CC, I'd pass on the deal, however, if you are into mostly movies only with very little to no music listening, the Twelve would prolly suffice for you.

i had planned on getting a w1 or u1 subwoofer to go with my classic 3 system but with this summer promo i am trying to decide if i whould go with the n12 in order to take advantage of the promo. i don't really know anything about it, i was really leaning toward the w1. what does everyone think about the n12 especially against the w1 and u1.

I'd think that any dealer that was giving you a free center channel with a purchase of 2 pairs of speakers and a sub would still give you the center if you were buying a better sub from them.

But maybe the promotion from NHT is constructed in such a way that it's not possible. I'd imagine, though, the dealer would try to make it worth your while to buy the better sub which is almost twice the price of the other.

Also, I'd give up my center channel before I'd switch from my U1 to a Twelve.

The W1 is the actual subwoofer itself (cabinet and drivers) in the U1 system. The U1 system also comprises of the A1 amplifier and X1 active crossover.

It is far superior to a Twelve (at least, I assume you are talking about a Twelve when you say n12).

Me personally, if I had to buy a Twelve just to get a free CC, I'd pass on the deal, however, if you are into mostly movies only with very little to no music listening, the Twelve would prolly suffice for you.I agree. Except that I got a U2 system instead of the U1 (to go with my 3s) for the following reasons: having 2 separate cabinets allows you to move them differently around the room, theoretically allowing you to lessen room effects, and by adding a second amp (which I haven't done) you can get stereo base. With the 3s you might move your crossover point up higher, and stereo bass would then be more important. All of that said, the way I'm currently running my system doesn't make any difference, but the potential is there. Also those W2 cabinets are tiny (14" square, or so) and barely show.

Peter

... having 2 separate cabinets allows you to move them differently around the room, theoretically allowing you to lessen room effects, and by adding a second amp (which I haven't done) you can get stereo base. With the 3s you might move your crossover point up higher, and stereo bass would then be more important.

Good points. The U1 and the U2 both certainly have some advantages over each other. That's why you should just get dual W1s to have the best of both worlds. Dual W1s is the bomb! :eek:

Also those W2 cabinets are tiny (14" square, or so) and barely show.

Coincidentally or not, they also happen to be just the perfect size for a Subdude to fit under them. ;)

Also, I'd give up my center channel before I'd switch from my U1 to a Twelve.

Plus 1 on that. :cool:

Good points. The U1 and the U2 both certainly have some advantages over each other. That's why you should just get dual W1s to have the best of both worlds. Dual W1s is the bomb! :eek:

Coincidentally or not, they also happen to be just the perfect size for a Subdude to fit under them. ;)

Definitely best of both worlds. For those of us who have to choose one U1 versus a U2 pair, though, and live in apartments, the combination of the opposing woofers and the subdude also helps us avoid upset neighbors!

That's why you should just get dual W1s to have the best of both worlds. Dual W1s is the bomb! :eek:

I'm working on it! Jeez...pushypushy


:)

Coincidentally or not, they also happen to be just the perfect size for a Subdude to fit under them. ;)
I'd never heard of the Subdude until your post, but I just Googled them. My system is certainly not on a live floor - from the speaker down we have a tightly woven carpet, 3/8" MDF mat, and then 4" of concrete. I'd rather put that $100 (for 2) into something else, but do you readers think that even in my case this would make a significant difference?

Peter

alimentall, do you still have the customized target stands for 3s? height?

I'd never heard of the Subdude until your post, but I just Googled them. My system is certainly not on a live floor - from the speaker down we have a tightly woven carpet, 3/8" MDF mat, and then 4" of concrete. I'd rather put that $100 (for 2) into something else, but do you readers think that even in my case this would make a significant difference?

Peter

Based on what you described, you prolly don't really need it as much as others (like Matt in an apartment, for example).

While I'd personally rather put $100 into room treatment than any other kind of tweak, such as wires/cables (and the subdude is in effect a type of room treatment), in your particular case, I'd say put that $100 towards getting you another A1 to give you the option of stereo bass. ;)

I'm working on it! Jeez...pushypushy


:)

Oh yeah, I can spend other people's money even faster than my own. :p

These showed up at my door three days ago.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v354/keysman/remodel/m5_boxes.jpg

:D :D :D

Here is a little more NHT pr0n.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v354/keysman/remodel/m5_drivers.jpg

Evolution M5

Fantastic Broodwich,

Enjoy.

Thanks!

I haven't had much time to spend yet. I still need to get the rear speakers setup and the wire run for them but I setup the three fronts. Didn't run the AVRs calibration yet but I did watch the "Lobby Shooting Spree" scene from The Matrix and it ROCKED!

That is my reference scene and after listening, I was very happy. Once I get things tweaked it's really going to sound great.

... in your particular case, I'd say put that $100 towards getting you another A1 to give you the option of stereo bass. ;) How well does the A1 drive the 12 Ohm load of a single W2? Also, I'm still waiting for my first A1 :( It was supposed to arrive "mid-May."

Peter

An oldie, but a goodie;

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b323/rareartantiques/xdboxes.jpg

An oldie, but a goodie;

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b323/rareartantiques/xdboxes.jpg

That one brings a tear to my eye, and hope to my heart.

An oldie, but a goodie;

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b323/rareartantiques/xdboxes.jpg

excellent....
i see you have my correct address on them. now ship them out already. chop chop.

Thanks Tim, you just had to steal my thunder didn't you? You trumped my M5s with your Xds. :D

How well does the A1 drive the 12 Ohm load of a single W2?

Peter, that was a matter of question before, and this was originally covered right here ...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8812952

... where I went to an amp guru to figure out the exact 12 Ohm power rating of an A1. :cool:

Despite the subsequent protests and objections on the next page after that link by the very poster who originally asked the question in the first place, I can verify that this figure has been confirmed to me in private by a VERY high source at NHT (hint hint) as being pretty much right on the money. ;)

I can also tell you from personal experience with dual A1s on my T5s that it works great. Definitely an upgrade on music if not movies too. :D

But as to how this would work on U2s, I don't know. Maybe if you have each W2 fairly close to it's corresponding main L/R satellite monitor.

So Jack (or anyone else) what do you think the answer to Mark Russ' question is?

"What I'm not really sure of though, since it's not really covered in the manual, and I've personally never tried it myself so I can't speak from experience, is that do you also run the sub-out from the Controller into the LFE in on the X1, and set the speaker wizard's sub selection to T6/U1 with X1 too?

Maybe Jack can shed more light on that for us. "

I'm going to be re-doing my rack this weekend and any suggestions greatly appreciated. Also I have 2 buttkicker amps for Berkline seats. Right now i just split the sub out on the Controller 3 times. In the X1 config above where would I take the buttkicker feed? Same place?

Thanks

Reason I asked that, is cause when I first got my Controller, I put it on the T5/M5/L5 system, and I used it without the X1 since at the time I only had one A1 on the T5s. I originally set up the Speaker Wizard as showing mains - Evolution - T5, and then sub as Evolution - U2/T5 without X1, and simply ran the Controller's sub out straight into the input on the A1.

The A1 would not even turn on out of it's "sleep" mode when set up in this manner, so then I went back into the speaker wizard menu and changed mains from T5 to M5 while leaving the sub setting as it already was, and then the A1 came on like it should, but then I think I was about the very first one to discover the Controller's +6 db subwoofer calibration bug. :o :( :mad:

But as to how any of this would play out with an X1, I don't know as I never tried it. :confused:

Thanks!

I haven't had much time to spend yet. I still need to get the rear speakers setup and the wire run for them but I setup the three fronts. Didn't run the AVRs calibration yet but I did watch the "Lobby Shooting Spree" scene from The Matrix and it ROCKED!

That is my reference scene and after listening, I was very happy. Once I get things tweaked it's really going to sound great.

Congrats broodwich! I think you got the best passive speaker NHT currently makes, but even if not everyone will agree to that, I think they will agree that you definitely got the best speaker for your particular room. ;)

Thanks Tim, you just had to steal my thunder didn't you? You trumped my M5s with your Xds. :D

One of these days, I'm going to take a camera out to my storage building, and show you boys a picture of some NHT boxes. :D

"...But maybe the promotion from NHT is constructed in such a way that it's not possible...."

Saw this just this morning as well. My distributor posted it on their site and it is a free Classic 2C with the purchace of 2 Sub Zero speakers, a pair of surrounds (could be Sub Zero's, IC2/3 or IW2/3) and a Classic sub (10 or 12).

That's about what I figured. That was pretty much the same deal they had before, but I think it was for if you bought 2 pairs of Twos and a Ten sub. :o

I'm considering iw4 inwalls for the rears and surrounds of a 7.1 system. I haven't seen any reviews, but in looking at reviews of the Classic Three, it seems that the vertical and horizontal dispersion patterns of the treble differ. So my question is, will the iw4 dispersion be like the Classic 3 when the iw4 is in "landscape" mode or in "portrait" mode?

Dude, I'd help you out if I could, but I don't know $hit from shineola about in-walls or in-ceilings. :o

Maybe John, Jack, or someone who does will eventually come along and chime in.

It seems to me that the iW4s have wider dispersion for some reason, which makes them great for rears/sides. Probably the wall proximity and the fact the flat surface makes for less loss to back or something. Well, that's my anecdotal, unscientific observation, anyway. I don't know what those modes are.

It seems to me that the iW4s have wider dispersion for some reason, which makes them great for rears/sides. Probably the wall proximity and the fact the flat surface makes for less loss to back or something. Well, that's my anecdotal, unscientific observation, anyway. I don't know what those modes are.

Thanks for the reply. The reason I'm asking (and would still like to hear from Jack) is that I noticed in the Stereophile review of the C3 that "lateral dispersion was superbly wide and even" BUT "In the vertical plane (fig.6), ...a big suckout develops at 5.3kHz more than 10° above or below the tweeter axis."....so this made me wonder which way the iw4's tweeter is oriented.

Upon a quick glimpse at their manual:

http://nhthifi.com/2006/manuals/current/iW4-Manual.pdf

It appears they are designed to be positioned either horizontally or vertically, with the tweeters positioned in when mounted vertically, or with the tweeters up or down when positioned horizontally (depending on height relative to ear level) just like an Evolution M5/M6/L5 is with their virtual FIG.

I've already pointed out that UAV basically said the same thing about the Fours/3C:

"These curves suggest that you might not want to choose an ear position much below the tweeter, where there is a response suckout centered at 5.5kHz, but once that limit is observed the optimum vertical listening window should be easy to accommodate".

Taken from:

http://ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/1206nht34/index5.html

Upon a quick glimpse at their manual:

http://nhthifi.com/2006/manuals/current/iW4-Manual.pdf

It appears they are designed to be positioned either horizontally or vertically, with the tweeters positioned in when mounted vertically, or with the tweeters up or down when positioned horizontally (depending on height relative to ear level) just like an Evolution M5/M6/L5 is with their virtual FIG.

I've already pointed out that UAV basically said the same thing about the Fours/3C:

"These curves suggest that you might not want to choose an ear position much below the tweeter, where there is a response suckout centered at 5.5kHz, but once that limit is observed the optimum vertical listening window should be easy to accommodate".

Taken from:

http://ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/1206nht34/index5.html

Thanks for the reply. I had understood that the iw4 could be oriented either vertically (portrait mode) or horizontally (landscape mode). The question is really this: If I mount vertically, do I get the 5.5k suckout when off-axis vertically, or off-axis laterally? In other words, if we define the "top" of the tweeter as being at 12 oclock on a c3, if you take the same tweeter and put it in a vertically-mounted iw4, is the "top" of the tweeter going to be at 12 oclock or will it be to the side (3/6 oclock)?

BTW has anyone seen any reviews of the iw3 or iw4?

What's a good crossover point for my M5s. I know that depends on a number of factors. I am using 80hz right now. I didn't see any reason to go higher than 80 and the next step down on my AVR is 50hz. That seems a bit too low. BTW, I have the M5s set to "Small" on large only the LFE is sent to the sub. 80hz sounds good to me but I just wanted to get some feedback from the group.

My Pioneer did a really nice job setting up the speakers with it's auto-eq-calibration thing but I did have a bit of a problem getting it to work. It kept giving me an error on the front channels. I had to move the mic forward from ear position about 12 inches and believe it or not it sounds best to be if I lean forward on the couch about a foot.

I don't have my stands yet so I'm only using something temporary. When the stands come in I'm going to move my rears a bit further back and re-run the calibration.

80 Hz is fine.

Have you experimented with the "1" and "0" boundary adjustments yet for your mains and CC in the EC, and if so, which works best for you?

Are you getting P5 stands for the rear M5s?

Next you need a U2 sub set in your room. ;)

The question is really this: If I mount vertically, do I get the 5.5k suckout when off-axis vertically, or off-axis laterally?

According to UAV, just so long as your ears are not below the tweeter height, no.

In other words, if we define the "top" of the tweeter as being at 12 oclock on a c3, if you take the same tweeter and put it in a vertically-mounted iw4, is the "top" of the tweeter going to be at 12 oclock or will it be to the side (3/6 oclock)?

According to the suggestion in the manual, it will be to the side, the inside at that (3 o'clock).

According to UAV, just so long as your ears are not below the tweeter height, no.



According to the suggestion in the manual, it will be to the side, the inside at that (3 o'clock).

Thanks for the info, Mark! BTW, are you a NHT dealer (or NHT and Revel) or just a consumer?

Just a consumer.

I figure that every question I can help to answer here will free Jack up a little more in order to get the next generation Evolutions out just that much sooner. :D

Just a consumer.

I figure that every question I can help to answer here will free Jack up a little more in order to get the next generation Evolutions out just that much sooner. :D

What dedication. He ought to send you some free product for your efforts. ;)

free Jack up a little more in order to get the next generation Evolutions out just that much sooner. :D Now that's what I'm talking about. :)

Just a consumer.

I figure that every question I can help to answer here will free Jack up a little more in order to get the next generation Evolutions out just that much sooner. :D


Does that mean you know something and spilling the beans. :cool:
Allen

Hey guys, it looks like Super Xd is here:

http://stereophile.com/news/052107steinway/

It is slightly more expensive. :D

Hey guys, it looks like Super Xd is here:

http://stereophile.com/news/052107steinway/

It is slightly more expensive. :D

Yeah, read that not expecting to like it, but it sounds pretty nifty.

So I was watching Air Force One the other night (at my normal level of a little under reference) and the tweeter and midrange just stopped working. No odd noises or anything, just noticed the dialogue was very difficult to hear as if the actors were whispering. I switched channels on my amp, etc. to verify the problem was not with my pre-amp or amp, sure enough the problem follows the speaker. The bass drivers seem to work fine. I know I never send a "clipped" signal to them either because I power them with a Sunfire Signature Grand amp (400w per channel). Kind of bummed I have to send it in for repair, hopefully it's a warranty (only about 6 months old) issue, if not no big deal, just don't see how I could have blown them by playing them too loud, as I always play at about that level for action flicks, and sometimes louder!

Anyway, I was fortunate enough to find a used M5 on audiogon for $225 that will be here today as a temp replacement while the M6 is being repaired. I know it's not a perfect timbre match, but for $225 that I can get back by reselling, it seemed like the best option to me (I did not see any M6's for sale used).

MF

What dedication. He ought to send you some free product for your efforts. ;)

You know, I couldn't agree more, but I look at it like this, with the performance for the $$$ NHT gives us as compared to most of their competition, it's almost like they are in effect already giving all of us some free product anyway. :D

Does that mean you know something and spilling the beans. :cool:
Allen

No Allen, I have absolutely no inside info whatsoever and I'm just speculating. For all I know, the current Evos may still be with us indefinitely, but even if that were that case, that would still be fine as far as I'm concerned. :)

Anyway, I was fortunate enough to find a used M5 on audiogon for $225 that will be here today as a temp replacement while the M6 is being repaired. I know it's not a perfect timbre match, but for $225 that I can get back by reselling, it seemed like the best option to me (I did not see any M6's for sale used).

MF

You might find yourself winding up keeping that M5, and adding more to it while selling the M6s instead. ;)

No Allen, I have absolutely no inside info whatsoever and I'm just speculating. For all I know, the current Evos may still be with us indefinitely, but even if that were that case, that would still be fine as far as I'm concerned. :)


Mark you could have played along for at least a day. ;) :D
Allen

Sorry Allen, my bad. :o

In that case, the new Evos will be released before the year is out. They will have all metal drivers like the domed Classics, BMF cabinets, and DSP like the Xds, but yet they will maintain the Evo's more sophisticated crossovers for the best of all worlds, and the new subs will have much better, upgraded electronics with DSP too. How's that? :p :cool: :) :D ;) :eek:

I like how you think ^ ;)

¡Saludos de La Paz, Mexico!

You might find yourself winding up keeping that M5, and adding more to it while selling the M6s instead. ;)
Maybe, but I like it "loud" for HT. I did watch a couple of movies last night, and it seemed to me that the M6 does dialogue better than the M5 to my ears. It could have been the soundtracks, but I found myself not hearing things said quite as easily.

MF

So where do you guys get these m6 speakers? They are very hard to find. The dealers near me dont stock them....

Id like to get a pair to compare to a set of KL650THX (John should have fun with this)

I want distortion free high spl.

Here is an example of the NHT Free Center Channel deal...

http://www.listenup.com/Content/Partner_Stores/nht/home.php

Yeah, the B&W dealer that picked them up two years ago gets to advertise on the internet, but I've been a dealer for 15 years and can't :mad:

So where do you guys get these m6 speakers? They are very hard to find. The dealers near me dont stock them....

Id like to get a pair to compare to a set of KL650THX (John should have fun with this)

I want distortion free high spl.

See if the dealer will order a set with a deposit or something. We don't stock them any more (though I probably should). The only reason why is that I've been pushing the so hard for so long that I felt I should give more attention to the new Classics. I certainly order them the moment someone is interested. The M6s need more power, but certainly play loud. Speakers that are very efficient still distort, they just need less power to do it.

Maybe, but I like it "loud" for HT. I did watch a couple of movies last night, and it seemed to me that the M6 does dialogue better than the M5 to my ears. It could have been the soundtracks, but I found myself not hearing things said quite as easily.

MF

Did you level match them?

The M6s need more power, but certainly play loud. Speakers that are very efficient still distort, they just need less power to do it.

The most efficient speakers I have ever had are these Klipschs that have been sitting unused in a spare closet for like 5 years now:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_1/klipsch-klf-30-speakers-3-2000.html

They are so sensitive, that if you turn the volume knob past the 9:00 position, it's too loud! :p

The T6 are the loudest NHT speakers I have, but the loudest overall are these 6' tall Polks:

http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/products/srtsystem/

Their subs' lower limit is rated as -6db at 16 Hz (in a 3500 cubic foot room), and they put out an SPL of 120db above 30 Hz at 1 meter (again, in a 3500 cubic foot room). :eek:

They require a lot of power though. I'm thinking of maybe trying out the Power5 on them with four channels bi-amping the mains, and the 5th on the center speaker. ;)

They are very much like the VT3s in a lot of ways - they both have dual 10" subs per side with a separate outboard active bass manager/crossover that has both "music" and "movie" modes, the VT3s have the optional bi-polar feature while the Polks have the SDA effect to expand the soundstage, and they even had very similar retail pricing when new, $10,000 for the Polk 5.1 system and $9000 for a 5.1 VT3 system. :eek:

Hey John, someone asked me in private how big a room a pair of Four's subs could load up. What would you say, about 3000 cubic feet max, give or take?

One of the best (if not the best) posts on this thread so far was made by James a long time ago:

Here is my .02, a long time NHT user/fan and a Audio/HT NUT with compulsive upgraditus :)

The M6 is a very accurate speaker that is not really "voiced" as a music speaker first, but has very even overall balance. It has great flexibility, and placement can and does effect the sound greatly as it does with any speaker. The adjustable crossover can help though it ways other speakers cannot. It is a very accurate music speaker with no artificial bump to make it sound better on the first listen. It will simply produce what it is feed.

The SB3 music series was "voiced" for music first, had a warmer overall tone and was actually not very accurate in the upper bass/lower midrange. This sounded good though on first listen until you realize that the sound is "voiced" for its target audience. Female vocals are rich and warm. It can sound a little "tubby" after awhile especially when you A/B it against a top grade monitor.

The Classic 3 is a compromise between the two, although it is still "voiced" for a music speaker. It will not play as loud as the M6 and will not have the impact for HT. At moderate volume it may sound better with music, depending on placement of course. The Classic 3 is much more balanced than the SB3, but not more than the M6.

The M6 is simply a monitor that to some will sound a little forward, the Classic 3 a warmer sounding music speaker that gets most things right. Both excellent in there own right.

The wildcard for me is that the Evolution system is just that, a system. The L5 is MADE to be wall mounted and will likely sound much better than an Absolute Zero/Classic 2 that is wall mounted. The Classic series does not have a good surround option. The Evo subs are clearly in a different class also. Lastly, the M5/M6 flexibility will work better in more rooms IMHO as the more accurate sound, but not always the best "liked" sound. A Multi-channel Evo system works better in my HT for placement and accuracy.

I have had T6's/M6's in My HT three different times over the last 2 years. I also have tried the T5's, M5's, SB3's, Monitor Audio GR60's and Gr10's, Silver 9i's, 5i's, 4i's and 3i's, Von Schwiekert VR4jr.s, VR2's, LCR15's and Vr1's. Paradigm 100's, 40's, and 20's. NHT 3.3's 2.9's and 2.5's. Rockets even!! I am forgetting some too :)

I do like trying different things, that it surely part of the fun of this hobby:D

Well, last week, I scored a used pair of NHT Last Stands locally for my SB3s.

I set them up and tried them out with the Controller's Deq for the first time this weekend, and when comparing the effects of it on them to it's effect on the Threes, I found that, to my ears anyway, the results were very similar to it being more noticeable on the ST4s than the Fours (or the Evos too for that matter), which for some reason made me think of the post I just quoted here.

I now wonder if more Deq correction is applied to some models than others, or if it's just more noticeable on some models?

Hey John, someone asked me in private how big a room a pair of Four's subs could load up. What would you say, about 3000 cubic feet max, give or take?

That seems about right. In a smaller room, it can be pretty heavy. By 4000cuft or so, you're probably starting to get a little lean. But it does depend a lot on the room shape and materials.

Yeah, the B&W dealer that picked them up two years ago gets to advertise on the internet, but I've been a dealer for 15 years and can't :mad:


I thought that you "should not" use a subwoofer with the 4's (Hindley)?

http://www.listenup.com/NHT+Classic+Four+System+with+FREE+Center+Channel-p-ClassicFourSystem-p-50058.html

I see a pair of T6's on Audiogon is that a good value ? Being a VT2.4 owner I have never heard T6's before. I really want a pair of VT3's, but they are hard to find. Anybody selling a pair of VT3's ?

The T6 are the loudest NHT speakers I have, but the loudest overall are these 6' tall Polks:

http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/products/srtsystem/

Their subs' lower limit is rated as -6db at 16 Hz (in a 3500 cubic foot room), and they put out an SPL of 120db above 30 Hz at 1 meter (again, in a 3500 cubic foot room). :eek:

Mark,

Years ago I remember thinking the Polk SRT system was the coolest thing ever. How do they sound? I don't think I've ever seen any for sale used.

I see a pair of T6's on Audiogon is that a good value ? Being a VT2.4 owner I have never heard T6's before. I really want a pair of VT3's, but they are hard to find. Anybody selling a pair of VT3's ?

I am, but I don't have the boxes.

Did you level match them?
Yes, and actually I bumped up the volume on the center even more. Besides dialogue clarity though, the fact remains that the M5 will not play as loud as th M6. And in my room which is somewhere around 5k-6k cu. ft. (open room setup with vaulted ceilings) that becomes a factor when you like it near reference level for action flicks. Though the speakers are only 10.5 away from the LP.

MF

Mark,

Years ago I remember thinking the Polk SRT system was the coolest thing ever. How do they sound? I don't think I've ever seen any for sale used.

Tim, to me, they are a little brighter on top than M5s or VT3s, but not as bright as 3.3s/2.9s. They have midrange dynamics like you couldn't even possibly ever imagine until you actually hear them, and if John thinks the Classics have a wide soundstage, he should hear these with the SDA effect! :eek: But to be honest, I don't really care for the SDA effect all that much. There's just something about hearing a guitar from 15 feet to the right of the right speaker that just doesn't seem right to me. :p I prefer a more focused, direct image wit the type of music I listen to, which prolly explains why I still like the M5s/T5s better than the Threes/Fours.

If you look at the satellites on the top portion, the normal stereo array is the one with the tweeter in it, and the SDA array is the other four 5.25" midranges. The matching CC speaker is basically identical to the stereo array with the tweeter in the middle of four of the 5.25" mid drivers, but obviously in a horizontal position.

The subs have extension and output as least comparable to, if not better than, my SVS PB12 Ultra/2. :eek:

They don't come up for sale often, but if I happen across a pair, I'll let you know. you should be able to get them for about $3K used now, but shipping can be very costly though. :(

Yes, and actually I bumped up the volume on the center even more. Besides dialogue clarity though, the fact remains that the M5 will not play as loud as th M6. And in my room which is somewhere around 5k-6k cu. ft. (open room setup with vaulted ceilings) that becomes a factor when you like it near reference level for action flicks. Though the speakers are only 10.5 away from the LP.

MF

Yeah, that size room, and even that distance from the speaker, is asking too much out of an M5.

I see a pair of T6's on Audiogon is that a good value ? Being a VT2.4 owner I have never heard T6's before. I really want a pair of VT3's, but they are hard to find. Anybody selling a pair of VT3's ?

Oh man, did you ever miss out on a very recent deal for a pair of VT3s and a VC-3.

I used to "sell" the SDA effect. Fun for a little bit, but very unnatural.

BTW, here is Jack's take on the VT3 as compared to the T6, and lets face it, you simply can't get much of a better take than his. ;)

Martin,

Comparing a VT3 system to a T6 system is really splitting hairs. In some sense, the T6 system is a cost reduced VT3 system, with no loss in performance. I think the T6 system is a little more forward sounding. Better for Rock music. The VT3 system is slightly bigger (spatialy), more laid back sounding.

The bass sections of each system are similar. The VT3 has more bass amp power, but the B6 woofers are better designed and don't need as much. I think the B6 has about a 4-5dB output advantage above 50Hz. Both systems have about the same output capability in the 30Hz range. Distortion on the B6 is lower due to the more recent motor design.

The VR3/VC3 has a significant bass capability advantage over the M6 since they are quite a bit larger. They were designed so that they could be set to full range in a surround processor. In hindsight, if you can't have a REALLY full range speaker in the center and surrounds, you are better off using a speaker with a lot of 60Hz output capability and setting it to small. Thus the M6.

The M6 is designed to be more directional, in a very specific way, to avoid early lateral reflections. This was not done in the VT3 system. In a large well damped room, I think the VT3 system has slightly better overall tonal balance. In a smaller reflective room, the T6 has a big advantage in maintaining better imaging. The M6 has a slight 2kHz resonance in the midrange that we weren't able to get rid of. This bothers me both because I know it is there, and I hear it in the speaker. Or maybe I only hear it, because I know it's there:)

I've lived long term with the VT3 system, but not a T6 system. The T6 system is a lot easier to move and won't gash your leg open if you walk into it in the middle of the night!

I used to "sell" the SDA effect. Fun for a little bit, but very unnatural.

These SRTs are prolly different from the ones you used to sell though John. These have a separate outboard box that handles it, with adjustable options on it as to how much of the effect you have.

In fact, I don't see why you couldn't use the outboard controller to get an SDA effect on any 2 pairs of speakers that are side by side. :p

I am, but I don't have the boxes.

I see your sale on Audiogon. If ever you want to ship let me know.

Right now I have the VT2.4's but want what is probably the best NHT's for HT, from that era.

Oh man, did you ever miss out on a very recent deal for a pair of VT3s and a VC-3.

You mean the Audiogon listing for $1600 ?

Yep, that was as good of a price for them as you will likely find in the foreseeable future for a pair in as good of a condition as those were in.

Right now I have the VT2.4's but want what is probably the best NHT's for HT, from that era.

How big is your room?

How big is your room?

I was all set to buy them and the guy sold them to his friend locally. Did all I could on that one. I am thinking about Def Tech 7000SC's but I haven't heard them yet, have heard smaller ones and not too impressed yet, compared to the NHT's


My room is 22' x 20' x 8'. Pretty large and I sit about 13ft from my speakers.

I was all set to buy them and the guy sold them to his friend locally. Did all I could on that one.


My room is 22' x 20' x 8'. Pretty large and I sit about 13ft from my speakers.

Well, in all fairness, you really can't blame the dude for not wanting to ship those behemoths when he could sell them locally instead.

Your room is certainly big enough for them.

Which is why I am considering the Def Tech 7000SC's. Since they are current, I have a better shot of getting a pair than waiting for VT3's to come up locally.

The most efficient speakers I have ever had are these Klipschs that have been sitting unused in a spare closet for like 5 years now:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_1/klipsch-klf-30-speakers-3-2000.html

They are so sensitive, that if you turn the volume knob past the 9:00 position, it's too loud! :p


Holy Crap! They'd be hitting better than 123dB with 200 watts! With just one speaker! Imagine a whole room of them.

Have pr of 1.5's I like. Would a single 1.3 make a good center for the 1.5's?

I guess I have to eat my words of doubt about how much difference electronics can make (as opposed to just the speakers). didn't think it would matter that much what i hooked up to my classic 3's so long as it was at least a seperate component.

use to either run digital to my middle of the road, actually more like lower end, yamaha AV receiver (5940) and use it's opamps and DACs or run analog out to it from an unmodded X-Fi Xtrememusic card.

now i just tried running analog out to it from a new X-meridian card (which has really good DAC's and replaceable opamps) with some new op amps fit in it (OPA2227PA for now, may try the LM4562NA ones later too) sounds astonishing! i have some of the warmth of the xfi card but now coupled with the detail of the yamaha in digital input mode, both combined together into one and there is just something so more live performance like about it. not quite as metallic or hints of harshness or whatever you call the yamaha and not as lacking detail as the xfi. just a great sort of combo of the best of the both made even better and then combined.

i mean i guess i should've known amps and all could have an affect. it was obvious how badly the out from a cheap portable CD player sounded compared to my hifi stuff and i could hear a difference between headphones plugged into xfi or ipod. but i guess i figured that once you got to seperate components level by a decent brand or used a solid sound card that the improvements would be minute. plus all the charts i always saw for receivers and amps seemed to give pretty similar looking stats, the FR graphs always looked pretty much perfect whether it was a $120 or $4000 model. whatever they are testing they need to test something else.

man, my partly modded x-meridian coupled with my NHT Classic 3's (and also a 3C and two AZ's for HT mode; also an Infinity servo sub not the most amazing sub but does the job for now) gives simply the best sound I have ever heard in my life! my speakers sounded really good before, but now it's just unreal. all the detail (at least) i had through digital input to the yamaha but without any of the touches of or whatever you call it that would pop up here and there before.

i mean it's still definitely more the speakers than the amp stuff, but that does help, especially since, as some have said before, maybe yamaha was not the best amtch of opamps and DACs (at least in lower end models) for NHT.

..., especially since, as some have said before, maybe yamaha was not the best amtch of opamps and DACs (at least in lower end models) for NHT.

Hate to say I told you so, but, well, I did! :p

Have pr of 1.5's I like. Would a single 1.3 make a good center for the 1.5's?

AC1 would be your best option.

Holy Crap! They'd be hitting better than 123dB with 200 watts!

At 1 meter maybe. ;)

With just one speaker! Imagine a whole room of them.

I'd hate to even imagine. :eek:

All Klipschheads always talk about how loud they'll play on little to no power (which is true), but I've always said that why would you need anything to play louder than the point of where you would start to suffer permanent hearing damage anyway? :confused: :(

All Klipschheads always talk about how loud they'll play on little to no power (which is true), but I've always said that why would you need anything to play louder than the point of where you would start to suffer permanent hearing damage anyway? :confused: :(


Same reason you'd want a motorbike capable or 175 mph? Not that you would ever use it, but it is cool that ability is there.

That bit of illogic being said, I always dropped the ratio on mine so they would perform (in my opinion) better in the lower ranges. No desire to go 900 mph, but yanking the front wheel off the ground in third was fun. High co-ed swoonage factor there...

gawd I'm getting old. :o

Are there any X1 and/or X2 owners who would be interested in some modification upgrades to them, including, but not limited to, the power supply (for less hiss/hum), the high pass filters, and possibly even the X1 20 Hz mod too if you haven't already done so.

We need a minimum of 10 units to proceed with this, and we're already about halfway there.

Please PM me for details if interested.

Edit - We may be able to include VT-3 bass control units on this as well.

... but yanking the front wheel off the ground in third was fun. High co-ed swoonage factor there...

My highly "massaged" Dyna-Glide will do just that, and you are definitely right about the "swoonage" factor, and not necessarily just in co-eds either. :D ;) :cool:

Are there any X1 and/or X2 owners who would be interested in some modification upgrades to them, including, but not limited to, the power supply (for less hiss/hum), the high pass filters, and possibly even the X1 20 Hz mod too if you haven't already done so.

We need a minimum of 10 units to proceed with this, and we're already about halfway there.

Please PM me for details if interested.

Edit - We may be able to include VT-3 bass control units on this as well.

Are the details of these suggested mods available to DO-IT-YOURSELFERS like me?

Are the details of these suggested mods available to DO-IT-YOURSELFERS like me?

Sorry, but I very seriously doubt it, unless you can get someone to send you theirs as a reference after they have it done themselves. Good luck with that. :p

Same reason you'd want a motorbike capable or 175 mph? Not that you would ever use it, but it is cool that ability is there.

That bit of illogic being said, I always dropped the ratio on mine so they would perform (in my opinion) better in the lower ranges. No desire to go 900 mph, but yanking the front wheel off the ground in third was fun. High co-ed swoonage factor there...

gawd I'm getting old. :o

clubs and frat parties seem to make use of the 123dB all the time to the sorrow of my ears. they've made me think of bad things now when i think about klipsch. piercing horns driven probably with +many dB on equalizers to top it all off.

80 Hz is fine.

Have you experimented with the "1" and "0" boundary adjustments yet for your mains and CC in the EC, and if so, which works best for you?

Are you getting P5 stands for the rear M5s?

Next you need a U2 sub set in your room. ;)

I experimented with the switch and with the switch in the zero position, the speakers sounded boomy a bit thick in the mid to mid-low bass area. With the switch the other way, they sound great.

I didn't get the P5 stand. They seemed too expensive and I didn't really like the style all that much. If I had known just how nice the finish is on the M5s I might have thought about the P5 stands a little harder.

I ordered some Sanus stands instead. They just came yesterday, I haven't had time to even open the box yet. Now I need to figure out what I'm going to fill them with. I guess sand will work. A friend of mine told me to make sure that the sand was all dry before I fill the stands with it. I guess that makes sense.

For those that have been asking, I have got in a shipment of the gloss black Target stands (not Target store, but Target the British speaker stand maker). I have the following:

24" stands with custom plates for the Two/Three
28" stands with custom plates for the Two/Three
28" stands with custom plates for the AZ

Ping me off line if you need. I'm the only one in the US that has these as far as I can tell, but they were good enough to build them for me.

All Klipschheads always talk about how loud they'll play on little to no power (which is true), but I've always said that why would you need anything to play louder than the point of where you would start to suffer permanent hearing damage anyway? :confused: :(

They never seem to mention that they distort easily with little to no power too ;)

Now John, haven't you picked on the Klipschies enough here lately? :p

For those that have been asking, I have got in a shipment of the gloss black Target stands (not Target store, but Target the British speaker stand maker).

(smacks head) Well no damned wonder I haven't been able to find them in any local Targets. :p

Now John, haven't you picked on the Klipschies enough here lately? :p

I don't know that of which you speak ;)

I experimented with the switch and with the switch in the zero position, the speakers sounded boomy a bit thick in the mid to mid-low bass area. With the switch the other way, they sound great.

Yeah, same here on mine, but I thought that maybe since yours weren't quite as close to the front wall behind them in your EC as mine are, it might have had a chance at being a little different in your case (pun unintended).

Isn't it great to have a speaker that really can be a "bookshelf" speaker? :D

I didn't get the P5 stand. They seemed too expensive and I didn't really like the style all that much. If I had known just how nice the finish is on the M5s I might have thought about the P5 stands a little harder.

Oh yeah, the P5s actually look great. They are a little pricey if you buy them new, but I've found 2 pairs for myself on ebay for a pretty good price, and even found a third pair there for somebody else here.

I ordered some Sanus stands instead. They just came yesterday, I haven't had time to even open the box yet. Now I need to figure out what I'm going to fill them with. I guess sand will work. A friend of mine told me to make sure that the sand was all dry before I fill the stands with it. I guess that makes sense.

Try lead shot to really weigh them down. :eek:

I don't know that of which you speak ;)

Do I have to link or quote an example or two just to refresh your memory? ;) :p :D

Are there any X1 and/or X2 owners who would be interested in some modification upgrades to them, including, but not limited to, the power supply (for less hiss/hum), the high pass filters, and possibly even the X1 20 Hz mod too if you haven't already done so.

We need a minimum of 10 units to proceed with this, and we're already about halfway there.

Please PM me for details if interested.

Edit - We may be able to include VT-3 bass control units on this as well.

Just giving this a friendly little bump.

Any others? We are getting very, very close to 10 units now. :)

I think this may be news ... saw this on the Amazon home page todayWe've got the high end of hi-fi with the NHT Classic series surround sound system at Amazon.com. Build your own perfect 3.1 or 5.1 system today. Not from J&R or another dealer, but from Amazon.com. NHT Classic page at Amazon (http://amazon.com/gp/product/B000RA8BKY/) - all listed as "Usually ships in 4 to 6 weeks from Amazon.com." They've added long product descriptions at the individual product pages.

And Amazon is now listed as an authorized internet dealer on NHT's site (http://nhthifi.com/2006/store-online.html)

Well, I think Amazon is an internet vendor that won't try to destroy all the local dealers. Just like Crutchfield. They fill in the holes without trying to undercut and take sales from local dealers. I'd certainly rather have Amazon as a dealer than J&R.

Well, I think Amazon is an internet vendor that won't try to destroy all the local dealers. Just like Crutchfield. They fill in the holes without trying to undercut and take sales from local dealers. I'd certainly rather have Amazon as a dealer than J&R.

You are going to have to start sharpening your pencil a bit John....Amazon is really working the pricing....they are discounting the 3's be a PENNY! No lie! And the Two's be $1.01.

:rolleyes:

I just took another look.....some of the speakers ship from 1-Call, not Amazon. Weird...I initially spelled out the word 1-Call and the site replaced it with ******. What's up with that?

Brian

In some ways it could help. A lot of people see Amazon; a lot more people post reviews there than on audioreview.com; and the Amazon pages always come up near the top in Google if you search on some speaker name plus review or reviews.

....Amazon is really working the pricing....they are discounting the 3's be a PENNY! No lie!

You take that penny, and you be thankful for it! :p

Hey John, how's the controller suggestions with Esa going?

Can you ask him next time you talk to him if the Controller's speaker wizard deq benefits the Xds any at all?

You take that penny, and you be thankful for it! :p

Actually, I did better than that :)

John finally convinced me to trade up to some Classics. It was/is the most convoluted deal I have ever been invloved in, changing (mostly on my account) on a weekly basis, but suffice to say, the "free center" thing has worked to my advantage.

Now if NHT would get off the dime and send John a black 3C and a pair of 2's, I could return his demos!

Brian

Well, I think Amazon is an internet vendor that won't try to destroy all the local dealers. Just like Crutchfield. They fill in the holes without trying to undercut and take sales from local dealers. I'd certainly rather have Amazon as a dealer than J&R.

otoh, J&R was a local dealer for many. pretty large population chunk in that area, northern NJ, western CT, NYC, westchester, western L.I. etc. and now they are gone from the NHT marketplace. perhaps this will be better for NHT, but I seriously wonder....

You are going to have to start sharpening your pencil a bit John....Amazon is really working the pricing....they are discounting the 3's be a PENNY! No lie! And the Two's be $1.01.

:rolleyes:

I just took another look.....some of the speakers ship from 1-Call, not Amazon. Weird...I initially spelled out the word 1-Call and the site replaced it with ******. What's up with that?

Brian

you're too late, the black twos have lost there $1.01 discount and are back to full list. you can still get the white ones for a penny off though (and same goes for everything else NHT aside from black AZ's which are also full list).

penny discount. maybe they just wanted to move to top of pricegrabber list or something, haha.

Hey John, how's the controller suggestions with Esa going?

Can you ask him next time you talk to him if the Controller's speaker wizard deq benefits the Xds any at all?

Pretty well, Esa is a cool guy. I haven't asked, but I'm sure the answer is "no", except that it will take into account the digital delay in the speakers. What could a 3 to 9 band EQ do for a speaker that has the equivalent of 4096 bands built in?

Actually, I did better than that :)

John finally convinced me to trade up to some Classics. It was/is the most convoluted deal I have ever been invloved in, changing (mostly on my account) on a weekly basis, but suffice to say, the "free center" thing has worked to my advantage.

Now if NHT would get off the dime and send John a black 3C and a pair of 2's, I could return his demos!

3Cs are here! Sorry, I've been really busy the last couple of days!

Any chance we'll see cheaper versions of the Xd this year?

Because right now I think the system looks too expensive for me. So much so that I probably won't even audition it. I would only go for the fronts and maybe sub.

As an alternative I'm considering (but have yet to audition):

3 Focal Solo6 Be pro powered monitors (street $1000 each)
2 Behringer DEQ2496 for eq (street $300 each)

total price $3600 street

compared to 3 Xd ($750 each list)
2 XdA ($3300 each list)

total msrp $8850. Let's aggressively assume 30% off (I have no idea what might be obtainable)....$6195 street?....still 72% more than the Focal/Behringer setup.

As a bonus, using the outboard DEQ2496 essentially allows for both speaker and room correction, whereas the Xd even with Controller still doesn't allow room correction.

For the rears and surrounds I want to go with inwalls and those might be the NHT iw4 (though I would prefer to use active inwalls if I could find any that made economic sense, say up to $1000 each msrp....any ideas welcome).

If NHT doesn't come out with a more economical active solution, I will audition the Classic Threes for use as fronts, but to tell the truth I am partial to active solutions (currently I have a pair of Paradigm Reference Studio Active/40 and a Servo-15 sub).

I'd be leery of the A-D, D-A stages in a component as inexpensive as the Behringer for my mains. A better choice IMHO would be to spend on room treatments.

I'd be leery of the A-D, D-A stages in a component as inexpensive as the Behringer for my mains. A better choice IMHO would be to spend on room treatments.

You have a point and I've considered it....the plan is to test both the Behringer alone and the Behringer in combination with an outboard DAC and if I can hear a difference, use outboard DACs on the fronts. Total package would still be lower-priced than the Xd system. I still haven't figured out whether it might be possible to get a prepro that has digital outs to the Behringer (any ideas from you all would be welcome).

As far as room treatments, yes I would plan to do some but not alot...aesthetics are a concern too so I don't want to end up with 20 panels and traps around the room. And even with room treatments I think I want to do EQ to compensate for less than perfectly flat speakers, and because I might want different eq curves for movies, music.

What are the differences between the VT2.4 and the VT3 speakers ? I will probably set them to small as I will be using a DD18 sub. So will there be much of a difference then between the VT2.4's and VT3 ? Should I even bother to upgrade ?

You would want to get the VR3 and VC3 speakers and use them all the way around if you're using the Velodyne for bass. Big difference between the 2 and 3 series. VT3, sure, overkill with the bass, but at least it's sealed and they're available at a good price.

If I can find a VC3 I will buy it. I am just wondering if the couple of thousand dollars this upgrade will be would be worth it if I am not going to be using a lot of the bass the VT3's are known for ?

... but at least it's sealed and they're available at a good price.

And actually easier to find than the elusive VR-3s too. ;)

I think VR-3s may possibly be the hardest to find vintage NHT speaker of all. Even AC-2s seem to be plentiful compared to them. :(

I was just looking at HTM's archived Super Audio review.

http://nhthifi.com/2006/press/reviews/SA_Review_HTMagazine.pdf

WTF!?!? Can someone please explain to me how they had measurements showing that the SB-3 had a -3 db point of 54 Hz and a -6 db point of 47 Hz while the ST-4's -3 db point was at 59 Hz and the -6 db point was at 49 Hz? :confused:

Surely this must have been a typo?

As a bonus, using the outboard DEQ2496 essentially allows for both speaker and room correction, whereas the Xd even with Controller still doesn't allow room correction.

Interestingly enough, there is a microphone input on the Xda, so hopefully the Xd will have room correction eventually, even without a Controller (which hopefully will also have it soon enough too), but as long as the Xds have been out now, we should have already seen this long ago by now. :( :mad: :o

What could a 3 to 9 band EQ do for a speaker that has the equivalent of 4096 bands built in?

That's exactly what I'd like to know. ;)

Cause if one is not using the Xds as part of a surround system mixed with other speakers, NHT or not, then there seems to be little advantage to using the Controller as a 2 channel pre-amp for Xds as opposed to one with fully balanced outputs.

Interestingly enough, there is a microphone input on the Xda, so hopefully the Xd will have room correction eventually, even without a Controller (which hopefully will also have it soon enough too), but as long as the Xds have been out now, we should have already seen this long ago by now. :( :mad: :o

Indeed. Seems to be taking a while.

Of course, that seems to be pretty common with NHT. The time to get the Classics out, the time before we saw the additional Xd filters, etc...

Indeed. Seems to be taking a while.

Of course, that seems to be pretty common with NHT. The time to get the Classics out, the time before we saw the additional Xd filters, etc...

Oh, I don't know, when you stop to really think about the last 2 years or so, just look at what NHT has done - Xds, Classics, the electronics (Controller and Power5/2), even Verve.

That really has been a a pretty impressive run of new products, some totally from scratch, in a relatively short time frame I think, especially when you consider that the buy out by Vinci Labs occurred during that span too.

As much as I'm hoping for a next generation of Evolutions, still, Xds have been out for a little over 2 years now, and I hope they haven't been sort of pushed to the back burner and forgotten about. :(

I was just looking at HTM's archived Super Audio review.

http://nhthifi.com/2006/press/reviews/SA_Review_HTMagazine.pdf

WTF!?!? Can someone please explain to me how they had measurements showing that the SB-3 had a -3 db point of 54 Hz and a -6 db point of 47 Hz while the ST-4's -3 db point was at 59 Hz and the -6 db point was at 49 Hz? :confused:

Surely this must have been a typo?

Bump. Anyone? John, you care to try to explain how SB3s actually had deeper measured bass extension than ST4s?

I don't know if this reflects kind of poorly on the ST4s, or extremely well on the SB3s. I guess it's a "glass half empty or full" kind of thing. :p

Don't know. I know the ST4s don't go a *lot* deeper than the SB3. However, they do go deeper. Not sure what NHT is doing to get the measured results they get and why some magazines have trouble replicating it. They certainly sound like they go as deep as NHT claims. They have no problems getting Xd measured well, for the most part.

Yeah, I was contemplating doing up a surround system of ST4s as mains crossed over at about 60 Hz to a ported sub of some sort (maybe a SW12), SB3s for surrounds, and a M6 (or M5) as the CC speaker with the Controller and Power5.

I think now if I do it, it will be with the SB3s on Last Stands as mains crossed over at 80 Hz to dual W1s, and just use the ST4s as "full range" surrounds. :p

I'm sure the SB3/W1 combo would definitely do music better than ST4s with or without a sub.

And I'm guessing a M6 would be far better CC than a SC2, especially with the Controller to tie them together.

Oh, I don't know, when you stop to really think about the last 2 years or so, just look at what NHT has done - Xds, Classics, the electronics (Controller and Power5/2), even Verve.

That really has been a a pretty impressive run of new products, some totally from scratch, in a relatively short time frame I think, especially when you consider that the buy out by Vinci Labs occurred during that span too.

As much as I'm hoping for a next generation of Evolutions, still, Xds have been out for a little over 2 years now, and I hope they haven't been sort of pushed to the back burner and forgotten about. :(

Well, I don't mean to minimize their accomplishments, because there are some big ones. It seems like there's stuff that they put together quickly, or at least just didn't pre-announce (Verve, Controller, Power2/5), and then stuff that seemed like i took a while (Classics, Xd), and then little things like software updates that seem like they could have been quicker.

... and then stuff that seemed like i took a while (Classics, Xd), and then little things like software updates that seem like they could have been quicker.

That's true. If you read the Stereophile "follow up" review of Xds, some of the filters were in existence even then, but look at how long it took for them to actually put them up after that.

That's true. If you read the Stereophile "follow up" review of Xds, some of the filters were in existence even then, but look at how long it took for them to actually put them up after that.

Exactly. Compare that to room correction, which, while significantly more complex, is still (to my knowledge), software and as such not something that needs to be manufactured.

Exactly. Compare that to room correction, which, while significantly more complex, is still (to my knowledge), software and as such not something that needs to be manufactured.

Yep, I couldn't agree more, hence my comment:

... still, Xds have been out for a little over 2 years now, and I hope they haven't been sort of pushed to the back burner and forgotten about. :(

which is exactly what it kinda, sorta of looks like now. :(

What you wanna bet if there is a next generation of Xds, they will have Vinci Labs B&O Ice amps instead of Power Physics? ;)

What you wanna bet if there is a next generation of Xds, they will have Vinci Labs B&O Ice amps instead of Power Physics?

I'm surprised they haven't switched over already.

I'm surprised they haven't switched over already.

Maybe they simply haven't sold out the original production run yet? :p

XD Series 2...

ICE Amp Modules

Digital Input

Internal Analog Volume Control

The last 2 should have been included in the first place...

Internal Analog Volume Control

The XdA does the analog to digital conversion at a fairly high resolution, right? So it should be able to do volume control in the digital domain. My understanding is that the reason digital volume control is bad is because you're basically throwing out the least significant bits. But if you've already upconverted the audio, you should have some extra bits to play around with, right?

As far as the digital input, the Controller needs a digital pre-out. Or are their any "digital preamps" out there?

Though having a digital input and volume control on the XdA would be nice, I recall Jack saying that it would have added to much cost and complexity to the product.

It will happen eventually, it's just "how". With Vinci's capabilities, I can't see any issue here. The main issue is probably selling out of the current XdA production run with dealers that can't comprehend how to sell Xd. I've done my part, but it just confuses most dealers, so you can imagine how that impacts sales.

Nice AC-1 on the bay for anyone who is looking...

Someone just got a steal on a very good looking AC-2 with a BIN of like $300! ;)

Though having a digital input and volume control on the XdA would be nice, I recall Jack saying that it would have added to much cost and complexity to the product.

I'm not going to question Jack, but it sure would have been nice if the Xda was an integrated amp (with the pre-amp section already built in) with digital inputs to keep the signal fully digital in it's whole path through the electronics. :cool:

The last 2 should have been included in the first place...

Bingo! I couldn't agree more.

The main issue is probably selling out of the current XdA production run

Hmm, sounds like I may have hit the nail right on the head here: :p

Maybe they simply haven't sold out the original production run yet? :p


... with dealers that can't comprehend how to sell Xd. I've done my part, but it just confuses most dealers, so you can imagine how that impacts sales.

My local dealer had a display unit, but he packed it up and sent it back, claiming "it won't sell" simply because of it's looks even though even he reluctantly conceded that it was a better speaker than the Revel Performa F52s at the same price point. :rolleyes:

As far as the digital input, the Controller needs a digital pre-out. Or are their any "digital preamps" out there?

If I'm not mistaken, I believe I have a HK AVR that has a "reversible" optical input/output, although I never have tried to use it. I'll have to check the manual to verify. :o

But if the future Xds do indeed have digital inputs, surely they would also have HDMI too I would think.

My local dealer had a display unit, but he packed it up and sent it back, claiming "it won't sell" simply because of it's looks even though even he reluctantly conceded that it was a better speaker than the Revel Performa F52s at the same price point. :rolleyes:

That's what I need is a deal on a demo unit. That'd be worth going into credit card debt over!

That's what I need is a deal on a demo unit. That'd be worth going into credit card debt over!

That's what I did, I got a dual sub demo unit that was pretty much immaculate with full warranty for $5K. Worth every penny of it too. :)

You know, you could open up a new card that offers in interest free for like the first year or so. Just a thought. ;)

It will happen eventually, it's just "how". With Vinci's capabilities, I can't see any issue here. The main issue is probably selling out of the current XdA production run with dealers that can't comprehend how to sell Xd. I've done my part, but it just confuses most dealers, so you can imagine how that impacts sales.

I don't really see what is so confusing about Xd. Just tell dealers to say "Hey, this is a small speaker system that sounds better than most big speaker systems!" :)

The color schemes are problematic, though. They should have a white/cream version, and a straight gloss/piano black version. Special dark is nice, but if given the option I probably would have gone for plain black instead.

I don't really see what is so confusing about Xd.

Yes...Is it confusion or is it that dealers prefer to sell "separates" when it comes to amps and speakers, so that the customer might come back at some point to upgrade his amps? (kaching goes the cash register)

Or is it that the Xd is (imho) priced rather high?

Yes...Is it confusion or is it that dealers prefer to sell "separates" when it comes to amps and speakers, so that the customer might come back at some point to upgrade his amps? (kaching goes the cash register)

Bingo! They will cut into sales to those individuals who believe that they can significantly improve the sound of their speakers with more expensive power amps. ;)

Or is it that the Xd is (imho) priced rather high?

They aren't exactly cheap, but when you consider that with them you also get all power amplification, speaker wire, speaker stands, and sub cables, all of the sudden, they start to look like a much better deal. And then when you actually hear them, all bets are off. :eek:

My local NHT dealer is also a Revel dealer, and he pushes Revel over NHT every chance he gets, but I inadvertently found out from his wife (who also works in the store more or less as the "cashier") that when he had a demo set of Xds, he would go to the store on Sundays when it was closed so he could be alone and listen to the Xds without being bothered because they "mesmerized" him.

The color schemes are problematic, though. They should have a white/cream version, and a straight gloss/piano black version. Special dark is nice, but if given the option I probably would have gone for plain black instead.

I'll bet a two tone gloss black/charcoal grey would have looked good.

That's what I did, I got a dual sub demo unit that was pretty much immaculate with full warranty for $5K. Worth every penny of it too. :)

You know, you could open up a new card that offers in interest free for like the first year or so. Just a thought. ;)

It is a thought. I'd sell my pair of Threes, 3C, and U1 if I bought it. Might as well keep my AZs for surround. That still leaves me with a chunk of debt that's hard for a grad student to pay off in a year, though :rolleyes:

Bingo! They will cut into sales to those individuals who believe that they can significantly improve the sound of their speakers with more expensive power amps. ;)

Imho it is this basic problem that I'm guessing eventually led Paradigm to drop the Active/20 and Active/40. Dealers didn't push the systems because in the long run actives are less profitable. Such a pity, they are great speakers and a great value.

Let's see if NHT is able to hang in there over the long haul, as Meridian and Linn seem to have in the consumer active space.

They aren't exactly cheap, but when you consider that with them you also get all power amplification, speaker wire, speaker stands, and sub cables, all of the sudden, they start to look like a much better deal.

Still expensive compared to pro powered studio monitors, coupled with outboard EQ or an Audyssey. Also expensive for someone who wants say 3 or 5 or 7 units of the XdS. That last unit uses an entire $3300 XdA, basically wasting $1650. So a 3-XdS system is 1.84 times as expensive as a 2-XdS system, rather than 1.5 times. Also expensive when you consider that the XdS only has a 5.25" mid/woof....wasn't there a review that noted that ultimate loudness levels might be somewhat lacking?

If you guys are correct that NHT hasn't sold out of its initial production run, maybe its a sign that they should lower prices to move the product, lest it die on the vine. Just my bit of lobbying.

Bingo! They will cut into sales to those individuals who believe that they can significantly improve the sound of their speakers with more expensive power amps. ;)

Oh, and let's not forget, that with passive speakers + separate amps rather than active speakers, the dealer can sell overpriced, ultrahigh-margined speaker cables to the customer.

Still expensive compared to pro powered studio monitors, coupled with outboard EQ or an Audyssey. Also expensive for someone who wants say 3 or 5 or 7 units of the XdS. That last unit uses an entire $3300 XdA, basically wasting $1650. So a 3-XdS system is 1.84 times as expensive as a 2-XdS system, rather than 1.5 times.

Well, let's face it, if anyone was going to do a 3 or 5 speaker surround set of xDs, then they would go ahead and pop the extra $700 or so to make it a 4 or 6 speaker surround set up. But hopefully, a more economical, true CC speaker solution to properly match the xDs will be forthcoming eventually, although I'm not holding my breath as we would have prolly already seen it by now if it were.

Frankly though, I personally would never do a surround set up of Xds. IMO, not only is it not worth it from a $$$ perspective, but it would also be an overkill, almost criminal waste of them being underused as surround speakers.

However, I could see doing up a surround system with them as mains and dual subs (with the 20 Hz filter update) along with maybe a 2C or 3C and maybe AZs or Threes as surrounds all tied together by the Controller.

Also expensive when you consider that the XdS only has a 5.25" mid/woof....wasn't there a review that noted that ultimate loudness levels might be somewhat lacking?

Actually, I like that 5.25" driver. ;) Plus, adding another sub and your choice of one of two different filter updates will help to alleviate the loudness levels anyway, but still, you do have a point to a certain extent. Lets not kid ourselves here though, they simply will not play as loud as T6s no matter what filters you throw at them.



If you guys are correct that NHT hasn't sold out of its initial production run, maybe its a sign that they should lower prices to move the product, lest it die on the vine. Just my bit of lobbying.

I agree, despite all the almost universal praise, clearly, the market has pretty much rejected them, for whatever reasons. That is, unless NHT wasn't really planning on selling all that many in the first place and just wanted to keep it as a highly specialized, limited and exclusive product for some reason that I can't comprehend.

I think it will obviously have to be revamped if it is going to continue.

Oh, and let's not forget, that with passive speakers + separate amps rather than active speakers, the dealer can sell overpriced, ultrahigh-margined speaker cables to the customer.

Touche`! :D

Frankly though, I personally would never do a surround set up of Xds. IMO, not only is it not worth it from a $$$ perspective, but it would also be an overkill, almost criminal waste of them being underused as surround speakers.

I think you should hear a full 6.3 setup first. You'd be surprised what these things do for rear surround. It's the most involving thing I've ever experiences. Only a full Meridian system comes close, IMO.

Actually, I like that 5.25" driver. ;) Plus, adding another sub and your choice of one of two different filter updates will help to alleviate the loudness levels anyway, but still, you do have a point to a certain extent. Lets not kid ourselves here though, they simply will not play as loud as T6s no matter what filters you throw at them.

They're within a few dB with the dual subs and HO filters. In fact, I'd say it's almost an exact tie. However, the Xds, IMO, are dramatically lower in distortion than the T6s and therefore are more likely to be played that loud where it would matter. I can't stand to listen to T6s anywhere near their limits. I can, however, easily listen to the Xds near the T6's limits.

I agree, despite all the almost universal praise, clearly, the market has pretty much rejected them, for whatever reasons. That is, unless NHT wasn't really planning on selling all that many in the first place and just wanted to keep it as a highly specialized, limited and exclusive product for some reason that I can't comprehend.

No, it's just that NHT, no matter how hard I tried to explain it to them, doesn't understand audiophiles, doesn't care about them, won't cater to them and doesn't then understand why the audiophile reviewing industry and their readership doesn't go ga-ga over Xd. The Xd sort of thumbs its nose at reviewers and audiophiles alike for the most part. I begged them to cater to the audiophile sensibility in both the first round and have done so again with the idea of a "SuperXd". Whether they do or not, well, I guess we'll see. Audiophiles don't like small and cute.

If there were a "SuperXd" or if the first Xd hit audiophile's dead where they want (digital inputs, volume control, optional amplification, 3-way tower with dual 8" bass drivers, wood finishes, etc), then the audiophiles would buy them, recommend them, help sell them, especially a smaller "mass market" version so they can say "well, *I* own these, but this $4K set would be great for *you*"

Still expensive compared to pro powered studio monitors, coupled with outboard EQ or an Audyssey. Also expensive for someone who wants say 3 or 5 or 7 units of the XdS. That last unit uses an entire $3300 XdA, basically wasting $1650. So a 3-XdS system is 1.84 times as expensive as a 2-XdS system, rather than 1.5 times. Also expensive when you consider that the XdS only has a 5.25" mid/woof....wasn't there a review that noted that ultimate loudness levels might be somewhat lacking?

If you guys are correct that NHT hasn't sold out of its initial production run, maybe its a sign that they should lower prices to move the product, lest it die on the vine. Just my bit of lobbying.

It's easy to pick apart the Xd system looking at it on paper, but you have to hear it and experience what it can do. I do recommend the dual subs with 135hz filters to anyone who likes higher listening levels. It's only an additional $1k or so and the system certainly does sound cleaner in this configuration.

Yeah, it's seriously underpriced for the performance as is. It's hard to imagine it selling that much for if it's $1000 or even $2000/pr less.

Oh, and let's not forget, that with passive speakers + separate amps rather than active speakers, the dealer can sell overpriced, ultrahigh-margined speaker cables to the customer.

They can still do it! Just hide the cables that came in the box, <i>or</i> talk up the high end stuff and add in a nominal trade-in value on what came in the box. People have bought dumber things.

Actually, I like that 5.25" driver. ;) Plus, adding another sub and your choice of one of two different filter updates will help to alleviate the loudness levels anyway, but still, you do have a point to a certain extent. Lets not kid ourselves here though, they simply will not play as loud as T6s no matter what filters you throw at them.

Yeah, the SuperZeroes/AbsoluteZeroes/Xds have taught me that small drivers can do great things when paired with an appropriate bass unit.

I agree, despite all the almost universal praise, clearly, the market has pretty much rejected them, for whatever reasons. That is, unless NHT wasn't really planning on selling all that many in the first place and just wanted to keep it as a highly specialized, limited and exclusive product for some reason that I can't comprehend.

I think it will obviously have to be revamped if it is going to continue.

Obviously they need to cut the cost by $1000 or $2000 and unload the rest at 0% financing on poor grad students...

Yeah, the SuperZeroes/AbsoluteZeroes/Xds have taught me that small drivers can do great things when paired with an appropriate bass unit.



Obviously they need to cut the cost by $1000 or $2000 and unload the rest at 0% financing on poor grad students...

or maybe even simply donate :D them to us poor grad students so we can though go spread the NHT name....
makes sense to me :D

or maybe even simply donate :D them to us poor grad students so we can though go spread the NHT name....
makes sense to me :D

Hey, I've already inspired the purchase of a pair of SB1s which will eventually be expanded into a full 5.1 system, and the purchase of a pair of ST4s. Another guy, he's taking my advice on electronics but I think he's going with some silly mail order speakers from Thailand. Trying to convince a fourth friend that Verve would be perfect for him...

Still, 2/4 isn't bad. I'm working on earning some kind of kickback here. I'd do better if I had richer friends.

It's easy to pick apart the Xd system looking at it on paper, but you have to hear it and experience what it can do.

Fair enough. I haven't heard it. But at the current asking price, it may not make sense for me to audition it. How many customers are driven away from even considering/auditioning because of the price point? How many dealers are similarly driven away from displaying a demo system because they think the price point is too high to have the system sell in enough volume to justify it?

In an ideal world I'd personally like to see a second generation system introduced this year:

1. lower price points
2. XdS2 with 6.5" mid/woof
3. XdW2 in more of a traditional box shape so that XdS can be placed on top
4. XdA2 in an optional 3-channel (or alternatively, 1-channel) configuration
5. inwall or onwall (or hybrid like the Axiom W3) version of XdS2
6. room EQ

The 3rd point is something I haven't mentionned before. For me, the aesthetics of the XdW are somewhat of an issue. My current plan (for a non-XdS system) would be to place my center active monitor on top of a Paradigm Servo-15 I already have, with the sub up against the wall. The design of the XdW of course doesn't allow for something like that, and I think having one or two of them up front in addition to 3 satellites is an aesthetic issue.

There seems to be general agreement on this thread that the XdS isn't selling all that well. To me that means that the current product positioning just isn't working. I'm suggesting that higher prices are not the answer from a corporate point of view. Lower prices in a second-gen product might well be.

If some people here think there is a "need" for higher prices, there could be a "deluxe" version of the product in addition to the "standard" version. Exotic driver materials (like beryllium tweeters), silver wiring, higher powered amps, etc.

No, it's just that NHT, no matter how hard I tried to explain it to them, doesn't understand audiophiles, doesn't care about them, won't cater to them and doesn't then understand why the audiophile reviewing industry and their readership doesn't go ga-ga over Xd. The Xd sort of thumbs its nose at reviewers and audiophiles alike for the most part. I begged them to cater to the audiophile sensibility in both the first round and have done so again with the idea of a "SuperXd". Whether they do or not, well, I guess we'll see. Audiophiles don't like small and cute.

If there were a "SuperXd" or if the first Xd hit audiophile's dead where they want (digital inputs, volume control, optional amplification, 3-way tower with dual 8" bass drivers, wood finishes, etc), then the audiophiles would buy them, recommend them, help sell them, especially a smaller "mass market" version so they can say "well, *I* own these, but this $4K set would be great for *you*"

So true... as an audiophile I want the purest level of reproduction. While the XD achieves excellent frequency response there were design choices that were ignorant to some very basics of HI-FI... most importantly S/N ratio... since there is an A/D-D/A conversion process AFTER your systems volume control the system sacrifices fidelity at anything less than full volume. This is the "hiss" that many users have commented on... regardless of volume setting, you are hearing the noise level of the circuit as if it were full-tilt. It NEEDS an internal volume control as an option. The music definitely does not seem to eminate from a "black" backround with all that hiss.

Why no digital input? That would be like designing a Digital Display with no HDMI input... Of course, the digital input would be useless without an internal volume control so these both need to be part of the package.

I can understand the thought process that this was designed to be a used like your typical speaker system after an existing preamp, but would it really have been that difficult to add a simple input switch and an analog volume control for the user that would use it as a dedicated system? SOURCE and VOLUME(if desired)... simple and pure...

EXAMPLE:
Here is an excellent unit that I use in my system with that design philosophy...
http://www.stereophile.com/solidpreamps/700/
It has 2 inputs that are volume controlled and 2 that bypass the volume. I use it in my A/V system with the 5.1 Analog outs from a Denon 5910 for all DVD Movie/SACD/DVD-Audio sound through a volume controlled input and run the Cable Company DVR box through a volume bypass input allowing me to use the cable boxes volume to achieve maximum S/N ratio.

Syswei,

The current Xd is system is not over-priced considering it's performance. I think a lot of people want it to be perfect and, of course, it isn't. From a sonic standpoint the only issue that seems to be of concern is that the XdS can't quite keep up with the XdW at higher volume levels in the 100-200hz range. This can be seen in the measurements on soundstage (though it was only measured in the standard single sub config). This issue could be probably be solved by using a 6.5" woof or a MTM design with 2 5.25", but either of these solutions would negatively affect the even off-axis response of the system, which was one of the Xd's design goals. The pro Xd systems (M-60/M-80/S-80) probably don't have this issue, but they are pricey and obviously not designed for consumers.

I agree that NHT should start trickling down the Xd technology to less expensive lines, but, as John has mentioned, Vinci labs probably wants to engineer the DSP in-house rather than sourcing it from DEQX, so I'm sure it is going to take time.

Bach -

I agree that having the extra A-D and D-A conversions is not ideal, but the Xd still manages to retrieve an astonishing amount of low level detail.

I'm a Mac guy and this discussion reminds me of the kind of speculation and "armchair engineering" that goes on on the Mac boards. :D

I was able to find an AudioCenter Two to match my recently acquired 3.3's, so I am no longer in need of my Classic 3 C center. I have it up for sale over on the AVSforum marketplace if anyone is interested...

LINK (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=861438)

I also have an SW2Pi up for sale over there as well....

Did you get that one on ebay that looked absolutely pristine from the pics with a BIN of only $300?

If so, congrats, cause you got a steal! :eek:

No, that wasn't me - I got mine on Audiogon for $290 shipped - less than 10 hours of use on it. Good deal, but still not as good as the $800 I paid for a excellent pair of 3.3's.

:)

Did you get that one on ebay that looked absolutely pristine from the pics with a BIN of only $300?

If so, congrats, cause you got a steal! :eek:

I think you should hear a full 6.3 setup first. You'd be surprised what these things do for rear surround. It's the most involving thing I've ever experiences. Only a full Meridian system comes close, IMO.

I have no doubts that they make surrounds sound as good as they possibly can John, but to me personally, surrounds just aren't too high up on the priority list. I listen to all music, even the few SACD and DVD Audio discs I have, in 2 channel only, and on movies, IMO there's just not enough information on the surround channels to justify it, as the 2 most important channels on movies by far (and by a very wide margin at that) are the CC speaker and the sub(s). Hell, as far as I'm concerned, you could hang some Bose cubes up back there for surrounds and they would do an adequate job, although it might actually be cheaper to just go ahead and just put Xds back there in the first place! :p

I would much rather take that $$$ and do up a second (or even a third) 2 channel Xd system in another house or room first. :D

They're within a few dB with the dual subs and HO filters. In fact, I'd say it's almost an exact tie.

I don't know about that. As you know, I've got both, and while I've never actually broken out the SPL meter to check, it sounds to me like the T6s can play significantly louder, when powered by a NAD M3 anyway. ;)

However, the Xds, IMO, are dramatically lower in distortion than the T6s and therefore are more likely to be played that loud where it would matter. I can't stand to listen to T6s anywhere near their limits. I can, however, easily listen to the Xds near the T6's limits

Good points that I have to agree with. For whatever reasons, the T6s/M6s do seem brighter, thus more fatiguing than even the T5s/M5s from the very same line, let alone Xd.

No, it's just that NHT, no matter how hard I tried to explain it to them, doesn't understand audiophiles, doesn't care about them, won't cater to them and doesn't then understand why the audiophile reviewing industry and their readership doesn't go ga-ga over Xd. The Xd sort of thumbs its nose at reviewers and audiophiles alike for the most part. I begged them to cater to the audiophile sensibility in both the first round and have done so again with the idea of a "SuperXd". Whether they do or not, well, I guess we'll see. Audiophiles don't like small and cute.

If there were a "SuperXd" or if the first Xd hit audiophile's dead where they want (digital inputs, volume control, optional amplification, 3-way tower with dual 8" bass drivers, wood finishes, etc), then the audiophiles would buy them, recommend them, help sell them, especially a smaller "mass market" version so they can say "well, *I* own these, but this $4K set would be great for *you*"

I have to disagree here. Even though IMO the Xds are worth every penny (and then some), if they can't sell at the $6K retail price point, then surely a higher priced version won't sell either, but I do agree that a lower priced version would obviously sell better.

No, that wasn't me - I got mine on Audiogon for $290 shipped - less than 10 hours of use on it. Good deal, but still not as good as the $800 I paid for a excellent pair of 3.3's.

:)

Sounds like you got a couple of steals there. I saw that pair of 3.3s for $800. I'd have prolly bought them myself if I had been local to them.

It's easy to pick apart the Xd system looking at it on paper, but you have to hear it and experience what it can do. I do recommend the dual subs with 135hz filters to anyone who likes higher listening levels. It's only an additional $1k or so and the system certainly does sound cleaner in this configuration.

I couldn't agree more on all points. Well said. :cool:

Yeah, the SuperZeroes/AbsoluteZeroes/Xds have taught me that small drivers can do great things when paired with an appropriate bass unit.


Don't forget the M5s too. ;)

Hey, I've already inspired the purchase of a pair of SB1s which will eventually be expanded into a full 5.1 system, and the purchase of a pair of ST4s. Another guy, he's taking my advice on electronics but I think he's going with some silly mail order speakers from Thailand. Trying to convince a fourth friend that Verve would be perfect for him...

Still, 2/4 isn't bad. I'm working on earning some kind of kickback here. I'd do better if I had richer friends.

I've suggested NHT for several family and friends. More often than not, that's the route they go after hearing mine. :cool:

Not even a month or two ago, someone I know put together a VT-2.4 based surround system, and a 2.9 dedicated 2 channel rig. I tried to talk them into getting M5s/L5s with dual W1s though in one system for both purposes. :p

I agree that NHT should start trickling down the Xd technology to less expensive lines, but, as John has mentioned, Vinci labs probably wants to engineer the DSP in-house rather than sourcing it from DEQX, so I'm sure it is going to take time.

The Classics supposedly did have some driver frames that were "trickled down" from Xd, as from this post all the way back on page one of this thread:

All of the woofers (except the 10" in the Four) have frames made of BMC, the same material used in the XdS baffle. The frames are about 4 times as stiff as the frames in the previous line (Super Audio). ... There is a lot of cool stuff in this product.


I agree that having the extra A-D and D-A conversions is not ideal, but the Xd still manages to retrieve an astonishing amount of low level detail.

Plus 1 on that. ;)

Yeah, it's seriously underpriced for the performance as is. It's hard to imagine it selling that much for if it's $1000 or even $2000/pr less.

Start offering them for $4K, and I guarantee you you will see increased sales volume. ;)

EXAMPLE:
Here is an excellent unit that I use in my system with that design philosophy...
http://www.stereophile.com/solidpreamps/700/
It has 2 inputs that are volume controlled and 2 that bypass the volume. I use it in my A/V system with the 5.1 Analog outs from a Denon 5910 for all DVD Movie/SACD/DVD-Audio sound through a volume controlled input and run the Cable Company DVR box through a volume bypass input allowing me to use the cable boxes volume to achieve maximum S/N ratio.

I picked up one of those too. They are very handy. I just wish mine was black instead of the champagne color though. :o :(

I picked up one of those too. They are very handy. I just wish mine was black instead of the champagne color though. :o :(

I might be interested in trading you!

I have a Chapagne MARANTZ SA-11S1 and a Silver BRYSTON 4B-SST in my 2 channel rig... the TA-P9000ES is so good I use it for that system as well... but mine are all Black.

No, that wasn't me - I got mine on Audiogon for $290 shipped - less than 10 hours of use on it. Good deal, but still not as good as the $800 I paid for a excellent pair of 3.3's.

:)
My gosh... those were absolute steals... you just need 2.9's in the rear and a U1 Sub and you have the MONSTER system!

Did the entire NHT crew go on vacation or something? 3 days and no posts? NHT needs to release some new stuff so we have something to talk about!

Start offering them for $4K, and I guarantee you you will see increased sales volume. ;) Yes, but with significantly less profit per system, they'd need to sell a lot more systems to make the same profit. So is there value to that for NHT? Perhaps there is, if it also increases sales of their other lines due to brand recognition as the company that sells the best-buy audiophile system. But it might also steal buyers from C4/C3c/C3 (and maybe U1) systems, which might have a higher profit at current pricing than the Xds at $4k.

Peter

Did the entire NHT crew go on vacation or something? 3 days and no posts? NHT needs to release some new stuff so we have something to talk about!

They did! It was called Verve. Has anybody besides John listened to it yet?

Besides, they don't have to release it for us to talk about it, as evidenced by discussion of a hypothetical Evo II line, mini Xd, Super xD, Classic 3.5, Classic 5, Classic L0, Classic L3... :-)

Yes, but with significantly less profit per system, they'd need to sell a lot more systems to make the same profit. So is there value to that for NHT? Perhaps there is, if it also increases sales of their other lines due to brand recognition as the company that sells the best-buy audiophile system. But it might also steal buyers from C4/C3c/C3 (and maybe U1) systems, which might have a higher profit at current pricing than the Xds at $4k.

Peter

I was saying that specifically to John as a dealer. :p

Keep in mind, with the Xds, I imagine that not only does NHT have to be paid, but also PowerPhysics and DEQX as well.

If wholesale price is in fact approximately 50% of retail, then NHT sales them for about $3000 per pair to their dealers, and of that, it's prolly reasonable to assume that they (NHT/DEQX/PowerPhysics) are making at least 50% profit on it themselves.

So if that is indeed the case, then figure it actually costs about $1500 (give or take) per set (single sub version) to make, and I'll bet that figure is not really too far off either. ;)

If wholesale price is approx. 50% of retail, then NHT sales them for about $3000 per pair to their dealers, and of that, it's prolly reasonable to assume that they (NHT/DEQX/PowerPhysics) are making at least 50% profit on it themselves.

All the more reason to sell off remaining stock and get v. 2 our with amps from Vinci (and maybe even EQ; don't know if that's feasible). The fewer people they have to pay, the more flexible they are on the price, right?

All the more reason to sell off remaining stock and get v. 2 our with amps from Vinci (and maybe even EQ; don't know if that's feasible). The fewer people they have to pay, the more flexible they are on the price, right?

Well, I was just speculating here, but that was assuming that PowerPhysics and/or DEQX get a slice of the pie of each unit sold. They could have been under a flat rate contract too.

Regardless though, I'm sure Vinci Labs would have to pay a licensing fee to DEQX for any trademarked technology, unless they do their own from scratch, which in that case, would prolly still have about the same associated start up costs.

The only one here who really knows the facts on any of this is Jack, and I very seriously doubt that he is going to tell us. :p

Hey, I've already inspired the purchase of a pair of SB1s which will eventually be expanded into a full 5.1 system, ...

What CC are they going to use? I know the SC-1 is the recommended one, but I would prolly use a SC-2, or even a M5 with SB-1s.

What CC are they going to use? I know the SC-1 is the recommended one, but I would prolly use a SC-2, or even a M5 with SB-1s.

Not sure. I'm guessing next he'll either replace the SB1s up front with SB3s or ST4s and move the SB1s to the rear, or just add another pair of SB1s.

For center, I'm guessing another SB-1, but if he goes with a real center channel I'll push for the SC-2.

On another subject, I've been talking with Esa about what the Controller needs, so if you have requests, let me know and I'll forward them.

The new software apparently has more fine tuned NHT EQ than the first generation, according to Esa, and he says everyone with NHT speakers should get it. Esa is being very cool and open about product improvement, which is fantastic.

I indirectly got the sense that NHT and/or Vinci is afraid that showing correction curves would be misconstrued by potential speaker customers as "inaccurate without EQ" rather than "sounds great without EQ, but check this out!" I think most people realize that no speaker is perfectly accurate and, for me, the graphs are to help sell the Controller after people have or plan on buying NHTs, not to spring on people while they're looking at speakers. We'll see there, but a compromise could be made in some sort of "demo mode" or "preset" that allows the change to be heard, rather than drawing it out in black/white, or maybe show the results from the listening position how the NHT EQ helps the in room response with its global changes. But they're listening and that's good. I guess they just want to step cautiously in this regard.

Do you think it they would view it as asking too much to at least release a downloadable owner's manual addendum (it not a software update putting said info right on the OSD) of exactly what crossover points it sets certain speakers when used with subs, such as, for example, a pair of SB-3s with a U1 sub if it is different from, say Fours with a Twelve sub, or do you think the Controller uses like a fixed 80 Hz crossover point in all cases?

Either way, it's not really known, and would be both informative and appreciated. :cool:

Not sure. I'm guessing next he'll either replace the SB1s up front with SB3s or ST4s and move the SB1s to the rear, or just add another pair of SB1s.

For center, I'm guessing another SB-1, but if he goes with a real center channel I'll push for the SC-2.

Talk him into keeping those 5.25" drivers, especially if he is going to cross over to a sub anyway!

I'd like to have a surround set of SB-1s crossed over to Evo sub(s) with a SC-2 (or better yet, M5) CC. ;)

They did! It was called Verve. Has anybody besides John listened to it yet?

I want to know if anybody actually bought a Controller and Power5 to go along with a Verve set. :p

Do you think it they would view it as asking too much to at least release a downloadable owner's manual addendum (it not a software update putting said info right on the OSD) of exactly what crossover points it sets certain speakers when used with subs, such as, for example, a pair of SB-3s with a U1 sub if it is different from, say Fours with a Twelve sub, or do you think the Controller uses like a fixed 80 Hz crossover point in all cases?

Either way, it's not really known, and would be both informative and appreciated. :cool:

But then the Russians would copy it.

I was saying that specifically to John as a dealer. :p

Keep in mind, with the Xds, I imagine that not only does NHT have to be paid, but also PowerPhysics and DEQX as well......

Keep in mind that NHT is making a lower margin on Xd than their regular line and so are we dealers. NHT has to be way negative on Xd. Heck, most demoing dealers are, unless they've sold at least two or three sets.

However, I do think they should have some sort of "hail mary" program on these to sell out the first 1000 sets by year's end, fulfill their contract with DEQX, then release a Vinci designed XdA II with volume control, volume sync, digital inputs, B&O amplification, etc, etc.

All the more reason to sell off remaining stock and get v. 2 our with amps from Vinci (and maybe even EQ; don't know if that's feasible). The fewer people they have to pay, the more flexible they are on the price, right?

If NHT decided to halve the price of the current XdA (knocking $1,500 of the price of an Xd system) in order to move them, then the Vinci Labs replacement would also have to be around $1,500. I don't think that they could cut the price and then raise it again without making broader changes to the system.

Keep in mind that NHT is making a lower margin on Xd than their regular line and so are we dealers. NHT has to be way negative on Xd. Heck, most demoing dealers are, unless they've sold at least two or three sets.

Interesting. I hope that some form of the product is still around when I'm ready to buy. I wish I could support it now.

However, I do think they should have some sort of "hail mary" program on these to sell out the first 1000 sets by year's end, fulfill their contract with DEQX, then release a Vinci designed XdA II with volume control, volume sync, digital inputs, B&O amplification, etc, etc.

Amen!

If NHT decided to halve the price of the current XdA (knocking $1,500 of the price of an Xd system) in order to move them, then the Vinci Labs replacement would also have to be around $1,500. I don't think that they could cut the price and then raise it again without making broader changes to the system.

Maybe Vinci Labs will "subsidize" it for us like one poster claims they do with the Controller and Power5/2. :p

But then the Russians would copy it.

Good point. :o

Maybe Vinci Labs will "subsidize" it for us like one poster claims they do with the Controller and Power5/2. :p

One can hope. If the Classics have been selling well (beyond just John's store ;) ), maybe they'll decide NHT's worth continuing to put some money into.

Interesting. I hope that some form of the product is still around when I'm ready to buy.

I'll bet that future generations of the Controller will offer it as an option in conjunction with a defeatable crossover option on future speakers.

One can hope. If the Classics have been selling well (beyond just John's store ;-) ), maybe they'll decide NHT's worth continuing to put some money into.

I wouldn't doubt a bit that is exactly why Xd is seemingly just not too much of a priority for NHT anymore, at least not right now anyway (such as why we still don't have room correction after 2 full years for example), because the Classics have been selling so well. ;)

Judging from all the people here who say they have bought Fours, I have to admit that I'm surprised. I just didn't ever think they would sell so well when they damned near doubled in cost increase from the ST-4s, and it just helps prove that there is indeed still demand and a market for full range towers. :cool:

I'll bet that future generations of the Controller will offer it as an option in conjunction with a defeatable crossover option on future speakers.

That's one way to do it. But I do like the Xd as a product, what with the speakers designed to be complemented by digital EQ, and the built-in amplification. It's so elegant.

But apparently most of the audiophile community would rather keep tweaking.

Judging from all the people here who say they have bought Fours, I have to admit that I'm surprised. I just didn't ever think they would sell so well when they damned near doubled in cost increase from the ST-4s, and it just helps prove that there is indeed still demand and a market for full range towers.

Mark - One of the reasons that they are selling as well as they are, is the fact that they are a serious high end speaker at a low end price. They measure well and in my listening tests of them, they display a balanced, detailed, sophisticated and well nuanced natural quality. I don't mean to sound like a fanboy, but I've auditioned many a speaker in my time and these can hold their own against speakers that are many times their price.

Mark - One of the reasons that they are selling as well as they are, is the fact that they are a serious high end speaker at a low end price. They measure well and in my listening tests of them, they display a balanced, detailed, sophisticated and well nuanced natural quality. I don't mean to sound like a fanboy, but I've auditioned many a speaker in my time and these can hold their own against speakers that are many times their price.

I couldn't agree more. What I've found is that, when people hear them next to $2K speakers, they sound so different that they often choose the competition as much as the NHTs. BUT, when you compare them directly to $5K-$10K speakers, they sound much more similar *and* they often sound similar but better. I don't think the average person is used to having such a color free presentation.

That's a different perspective from older NHT models, where I felt they were as good in the midrange/treble as similarly priced audiophile speakers, but also had bass and dynamic range. Much as Mark likes the Revels, I've had other Revel people tell me that they're more equal to the F52 and better than the F32. I don't know if all that's true, but baby, baby, baby.......... :)

That being said, I'm not in denial that people won't like other things or that the NHTs are flawless. In fact, what bugs me more than anything is how damn good they are and yet, not quite Xd.

Mark - One of the reasons that they are selling as well as they are, is the fact that they are a serious high end speaker at a low end price. They measure well and in my listening tests of them, they display a balanced, detailed, sophisticated and well nuanced natural quality. I don't mean to sound like a fanboy, but I've auditioned many a speaker in my time and these can hold their own against speakers that are many times their price.


I couldn't agree more. What I've found is that, when people hear them next to $2K speakers, they sound so different that they often choose the competition as much as the NHTs. BUT, when you compare them directly to $5K-$10K speakers, they sound much more similar *and* they often sound similar but better. I don't think the average person is used to having such a color free presentation.

That's a different perspective from older NHT models, where I felt they were as good in the midrange/treble as similarly priced audiophile speakers, but also had bass and dynamic range. Much as Mark likes the Revels, I've had other Revel people tell me that they're more equal to the F52 and better than the F32. I don't know if all that's true, but baby, baby, baby.......... :)

That being said, I'm not in denial that people won't like other things or that the NHTs are flawless. In fact, what bugs me more than anything is how damn good they are and yet, not quite Xd.

Steelheart, what I said which you quoted about me being surprised at how well the Fours are selling was more about their price than the Four itself as a speaker.

As a speaker though, it is all subjective. ;)

I've had Fours, so I know what they will do, and, what they won't do.

Frankly, if someone likes and wants the Classic Series, I think anyone who buys Fours (without or even with an X2/A1s) instead of Threes and an Evo sub or subs combination for about the same price is nuts, as originally covered here:

Retail price of Fours with an X2 and dual A1s = $2950 ($2550 with one A1 amp)

Retail price of Threes with a U2 sub set, plus an additional A1 for stereo bass = $2600 ($2200 with a single A1, and this IMO would still trump a pair of Fours, even with a single A1 and X2, but especially without them)

Retail price of Threes with dual W1s and A1s and a single X1 = $3050. (This set up in particular would absolutely destroy a pair of Fours bi-amped with an X2 and dual A1s! ;) )

Keep in mind though you would have to factor in the price of a set of stands for the Threes into those figures as well.

... but again, it is all subjective after all. :p

While I found out first hand that the Classics, especially the Fours, just aren't for me (although the Controller's Deq did help somewhat with my main issue with them, that being fatiguing brightness), they do have their good points however, and I can see how someone could like them. I think the Fours would be an excellent choice for someone who is into movies much more so than music, has at least a medium to larger (but not huge) sized room, but yet still can't have a sub or subs for whatever reason or reasons, for example, due to space placement limitations and/or WAF.

In fact, I still think Fours for mains and surrounds (plus a 3C) with a Twelve sub or two all tied together by the Controller and driven by a Power5 (plus a Power2 if 7.1) would be one kick ass surround system for movies in a bigger room with several seats. And if the Controller ever gets room correction too, so much the better. :cool:

John, I didn't think the Performa F32 was really that much better than the F12 Concertas at less than half the price, certainly not enough to justify the price increase IMO (The F12 actually has some things the F32 doesn't, particularly the "waveguide" tweeter, and you can hear the difference in it too IMO, particularly in soundstaging, but the F52 for some reason does have it), but if you ever run across anyone with a near mint set of Performa F52s that wants Fours instead and would trade them even, you let me know, and I will very happily buy them a brand new pair of Fours from your store, at full retail price nonetheless, in exchange for their F52s. :D

BTW, the Fours (or any other NHT speaker for that matter), are a damned site from being "not quite" Xds IMO. ;) I think that Threes with a U1 will come closer to Xds than Fours will, but even then they are still a long way off.

That's one way to do it. But I do like the Xd as a product, what with the speakers designed to be complemented by digital EQ, and the built-in amplification. It's so elegant.

But apparently most of the audiophile community would rather keep tweaking.

Or, as we already alluded too, maybe it's just that dealers would much rather keep selling them power amps and speaker wire to "improve" the sound of their B&Ws (for example). ;)

I'm liking the NHT Classics due to their piano black finish and the fact that they would compliment my Samsung LCD and smoked glass stand nicely. My HT is devoted to gaming and movies only, and the only music I would be listening to out of these speakers would be background soundtrack. Would a couple of Absolute Zero speakers work nicely in a small (<200 sq ft) room and hopefully scale up well to a decent sized living room eventually? Or would someone recommend something else in that pricerange?

I'm liking the NHT Classics due to their piano black finish and the fact that they would compliment my Samsung LCD and smoked glass stand nicely. My HT is devoted to gaming and movies only, and the only music I would be listening to out of these speakers would be background soundtrack. Would a couple of Absolute Zero speakers work nicely in a small (<200 sq ft) room and hopefully scale up well to a decent sized living room eventually? Or would someone recommend something else in that pricerange?

Probably. But it depends on how loud you like to listen, what you're powering them with, and whether you're using a sub with them.

If you are not using a sub, SB-3s are also in gloss black and will prolly go about as low or maybe even a little lower than the sub that comes with Verve. :cool:

Probably. But it depends on how loud you like to listen, what you're powering them with, and whether you're using a sub with them.

The speakers would never be played at a level that most would agree upon as loud. I prefer clarity over loudness any day. I plan on powering my setup with an Onkyo TX-SR605. I wasn't planning on picking up a sub until I've moved into my new place, but if I were to go with the Absolute Zeros instead of one of the higher model bookshelfs, a sub would almost be a requirement I'd imagine.

Honestly I haven't even decided on whether or not to go with bookshelf or floorstanding speakers. On one hand I think floorstanding speakers would be overkill (I was even impressed by a demo set at Circuit City consisting of these very small satellite speakers), and on the other hand I'm worried that bookshelf speakers won't deliver nearly as "good" of sound, and I might outgrow them. I'd also have to purchase stands for bookshelf speakers since I don't actually have any furniture to position them on. I'm in the $200-$400 price range per speaker.

[QUOTE=mark russ]

Frankly, if someone likes and wants the Classic Series, I think anyone who buys Fours (without or even with an X2/A1s) instead of Threes and an Evo sub or subs combination for about the same price is nuts, as originally covered here:

Actually Mark, I have 6 Classic Threes, a Classic 3c and a sub. Being a serious basshead necessitates my having a sub. But should I find myself in circumstances where I had to live without one, I would definitely purchase a pair of Classic Fours.

I have a pair of AZ's that I use in my 2CH system, with a sub. They are an amazing little speaker. The room they are in is an odd shaped front room, with asymmetrical ceilings that are probably close to 20 Feet in places, opening into a dining room, and a foyer. In other words, way to much room for a puny pair of AZ's.

But you would probably be shocked at how loud (and CLEAN) that they play.

I have rotated various speakers in and out of that system (SB3, B&W 601, Kef Q10's, Classic 3's), and in fact, I am currently running a pair of PSB Alpha B1's. The B1's are fine speakers, but I am finding them just a touch bright to the point were already bright recordings are just a bit fatiguing to listen to.

They do reveal a lot of detail in recordings that are not overly bright to start with, but it seems that so many recordings are in fact already too bright, such that for my tastes, I am not sure I want to live with a speaker that reduces the number of discs I want to spin.

I never considered the AZ's to be particularly laid back, but they probably are when compared to the B1's. To me the true beauty of the AZ's is that they shine with well recorded stuff, play reasonably loud without complaint, and they are more tolerant of stuff that is a bit tipped up. As I said to John on several occasions, they tend to apologize for less than stellar recordings, and I kind of like that.

YMMV of course, but I am actually getting ready to swap the AZ's back in.

Brian

Frankly, if someone likes and wants the Classic Series, I think anyone who buys Fours (without or even with an X2/A1s) instead of Threes and an Evo sub or subs combination for about the same price is nuts, as originally covered here:


...well I guess I'm nuts then. That said, I'm more than pleased with the 4's in the basso profundo department, even without the X2/A1's. These black monoliths work very well in my set-up on both music and movies. Down the road I likely will add the X2/A1's or some other device capable of fracturing the earth's crust, but those 4's are doing an excellent job for the interim.

(NHT Classic 4's, 3c, iC4's / CA Azur 640R / Pioneer Elite Pro-1540HD / Pioneer Elite DV46AV / PureAV PF31D)

Don't get me wrong Dog, as I already stated, I've had a pair of Fours, and I still think they are an excellent choice under the right specific conditions, which includes those who just want the sake of simplicity. IMO, they should definitely be on the short list for anyone who is considering full range towers at anywhere even close to the price point, or even somewhat above. :)

But I just don't want to see them overhyped so much (as the Classic line in general was in the beginning just right before they even came out) to the point that they will disappoint those who have never even heard them before when they finally do get to hear them for the first time from creating unrealistic expectations that they can't possibly ever live up to by claiming that they are almost as good or even better than certain speakers over 3 times their price (including NHT's own flagship speaker), when the fact is that there are models (one in particular) by other brands that compete very vigorously with the Fours and actually cost a little less. IOW, don't expect the Fours to magically turn water into wine, cause they won't. :p

Plus, within NHT's own very own line, there are better alternatives (if they can be used in the specific room/situation) for people at or very close to the same price points, specifically Threes with sealed Evo subs. ;) FWIW, there is one other poster here who, like I did, has both Fours and T5s, and his thoughts on comparing the two models to each other were practically identical to mine.

So, what do you think of that CA 640R? :cool:

I don't think Fours are touted as giant killers for the most part if those giants are truly great speakers for $4K-$8K. HOWEVER, there are a lot of speakers posing as giants in that price range, purported to be giants with glowing reviews and "street cred" that will have their asses handed to them by Fours. Given the market I have here in ABQ, they are giant killers because no one is selling anything that comes close. The best we've got here besides me is B&W, Focal and Vandersteen and about the only one of those I'd take over Fours (cost no object) would be Focal Utopias at $18K/pr. We don't have Revels or Joseph Audio or things like that which are engineered well enough to give them a hard time.

That being said, I'd still take Fours over 3.3 any day. Set up properly, they're just flat out better over about 150Hz. You can see this easily in the FR, dispersion and spectral decay measurements vs even the Three. Not better at every note, in every way, of course, but overall, the only thing NHT has made that is clearly equal to or better than the Fours in every way is Xd. T5s and T6s can still mate to a bad room better, I suppose, but I've had most of the NHT models in my house long term and while I understand the attraction to the 3.3s, 2.9s, T5s, T6s, especially for their incredible bass, the Three/Four is still better stuff overall, especially for music. No doubt in my mind.

That being said, I'd still take Fours over 3.3 any day. Set up properly, they're just flat out better over about 150Hz.

And I'd take T5s over 3.3s any day. They are just flat out better over 27 Hz. They are also much more room accommodating and easier to set up than either Fours or 3.3s. :D ;) :cool:

You can see this easily in the FR, dispersion and spectral decay measurements vs even the Three.

Who has taken all of these said measurements of both Fours and Threes at the same time? :confused: Ultimate AV didn't.

HTM OTOH, while not taking the exact same said measurements, did do their version of measurements that they do on both Fours and Threes at the same time, and the Four's were in fact slightly better than the Three's comparative ones, but, as good as the Four's were though, the T5's same HTM measurements were still even better. :)

Not better at every note, in every way, of course, but overall, the only thing NHT has made that is clearly equal to or better than the Fours in every way is Xd.

Really though, the same can also be said about several different NHT models, prolly even including the almost 15 year old 3.3. :p ;)

T5s and T6s can still mate to a bad room better, I suppose, but I've had most of the NHT models in my house long term ...

So have I, and still do most of them. :cool:

and while I understand the attraction to the 3.3s, 2.9s, T5s, T6s, especially for their incredible bass, the Three/Four is still better stuff overall, especially for music. No doubt in my mind.

Maybe on some certain kinds of music, but definitely not rock. I think that even the 3.3s rock better than the Fours, much less T6s.

The best I've ever heard the Fours sound was on a CD that someone loaned me that, believe it or not, had violin versions (and only violin, no bass, drums, or anything else) of songs from hard rock bands like Led Zep, Kiss, AC/DC, etc. I can't remember the name of either the CD or even the artists who made it to save my life, but I kid you not, there were (if memory serves) like four women with violins playing hard rock/heavy metal songs together, and violins sounded absolutely incredible on the Fours. :eek:

You haven't heard anything until you've heard "Calling Dr. Love" played with violins. :p

So, what do you think of that CA 640R? :cool:

I am so pleased I went this route. Not as many doodads as most but the sound quality, for the price, is beyond my expectations. Very full, effortless and open. It has considerable grunt and mates very well with the Classics. All the great reviews this thing has received are pretty much, as they say in the U.K., spot on!. Highly recommended.;)

I really, really like my T5's, suggested by fact that I'm looking for a extra pair of W1's to mate with my other M5's for a 2nd 2-CH setup. That said, If the Four were sealed, I would probably prefer it over of the Evo line for all types of music, except rock... I still like the Evo sound here (gotta agree with my friend Mark on this one). As far as the older speakers, I now have (2) sets of 2.9s online locally to sell or for friends to borrow :cool: ....

The more I listen to the Fours, I really think the midrange/midbass is more integrated than a Three w/sub sound, so much so, that I would consider adding a set of Evo Subs with the Fours and crossover at 40-60Hz instead of the Threes/U1s. I know it's appears to be overkill, but if you had the money, it's still cheaper and would sound as good or better than most speakers I've heard under $5-6K....

I've had most of the NHT models in my house long term and while I understand the attraction to the 3.3s, 2.9s, T5s, T6s, especially for their incredible bass, the Three/Four is still better stuff overall, especially for music. No doubt in my mind.

Got 1.5's as mains. How about a 1.5 as a center (having a hard time getting an AC1)? Would that be good? If so, can I hook up a pr of 1.5's as a center (how?)?

There's an AC1 on ebay right now if I'm not mistaken (unless it ended today).

Edit - just checked, it's still there and ends in less than three hours. :)

I really, really like my T5's, suggested by fact that I'm looking for a extra pair of W1's to mate with my other M5's for a 2nd 2-CH setup. That said, If the Four were sealed, I would probably prefer it over of the Evo line for all types of music, except rock... I still like the Evo sound here (gotta agree with my friend Mark on this one). As far as the older speakers, I now have (2) sets of 2.9s online locally to sell or for friends to borrow :cool: ....

The more I listen to the Fours, I really think the midrange/midbass is more integrated than a Three w/sub sound, so much so, that I would consider adding a set of Evo Subs with the Fours and crossover at 40-60Hz instead of the Threes/U1s. I know it's appears to be overkill, but if you had the money, it's still cheaper and would sound as good or better than most speakers I've heard under $5-6K....

See, to me, I'd rather have the Threes crossed over to sealed Evo subs than the ported subs of the Fours despite any better perceived midrange transition that comes with it.

While I personally have not seen where anybody did the specific measurements John mentioned of both the Threes and Fours at the same time, even if they did, I'm sure they would have been taken with the Threes as full range (or large). I wonder if the figures would change any if they were taken with the Threes crossed over at even 80, much less 125 Hz?

The HTM measurements I mentioned though, the Four did best the Three from 200 -10,000 Hz, so crossing over the Threes, even at 125 Hz, should still have not (at least in theory anyway) effected the outcome of that any.

Here they are:

"The Four's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +0.75/–2.67 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3-dB point is at 42 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 35 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 5.24 ohms at 145 Hz and a phase angle of –69.50 degrees at 61 Hz.

...

The Three's listening-window response measures +1.05/–3.68 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. The –3-dB point is at 69 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 55 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 4.77 ohms at 143 Hz and a phase angle of –48.61 degrees at 76 Hz.—MJP"

from http://www.hometheatermag.com/completesystems/407nht/index2.html

And while I can't copy and paste it, here is the link to see where the M5 (vertically) clearly bested the Four in the same HTM measurements in all except for obviously bass extension, but when the B5 is added to the M5 to form the T5, it even bests the Four in bass extension too. :)

http://nhthifi.com/2006/press/reviews/evolution_ht.pdf

Got 1.5's as mains. How about a 1.5 as a center (having a hard time getting an AC1)? Would that be good? If so, can I hook up a pr of 1.5's as a center (how?)?

I have an AC1 for sale :)

Well, I may have to replace some Fours with T5s. I have a customer with a reverberant room and less than ideal setup. He's testing T5s now, but the Fours really didn't sound good in his room. I suspect the T5s will sound great. While I'd like to see Evo updated, the dispersion concept they use is still very valid in some rooms. I was wounded to hear Fours sound like that, considering what they sound like in my bedroom.

Alimentall,

I'm curious, what lines of speakers do you carry besides NHT? What lines of electronics?

Alimentall,

I'm curious, what lines of speakers do you carry besides NHT? What lines of electronics?

http://www.adnm.com/

Alimentall,

I'm curious, what lines of speakers do you carry besides NHT? What lines of electronics?

NAD is the other main one. With NHT coming out with their electronics and NAD coming out with Masters series, we've been able to make our lineup more concise while being able to appeal to everyone. NAD has the power to drive NHTs, even at the lower levels.

Why do you ask?

There's an AC1 on ebay right now if I'm not mistaken (unless it ended today).

Edit - just checked, it's still there and ends in less than three hours. :)

Thanks; I bid on it but was beat (I bid $260, which I thought was a lot), and it ended after 2 am, so I was asleep. Will watch for others.
Is using a 1.5 as the center a less than good idea?

John said he has one for sale. PM him.

Damned! It went for over $260? :eek:

The last AC2 only went for $300!

I suspect the T5s will sound great.

T5s will sound great in virtually ANY room! :D

John said he has one for sale. PM him.

Damned! It went for over $260? :eek:

The last AC2 only went for $300!

It was the Bud that made me bid that high, I didn't want to :-) I am putting this spkr under a pj screen; and I speculate the AC1 is tuned to be against a solid surface? So a 1.5 may be better? Yes, no, maybe?

Maybe, but it will be hard to find a single 1.5. I'd sell the AC1 for less.

NAD is the other main one. With NHT coming out with their electronics and NAD coming out with Masters series, we've been able to make our lineup more concise while being able to appeal to everyone. NAD has the power to drive NHTs, even at the lower levels.

Why do you ask?

Just curious. Not ready to buy anything quite yet.

That's cool, but I though there was a question about brands in general there. I like to sell good stuff, but I don't sell *all* the good stuff. There's too much of it!

Ok guys, I need some help here. I currently run the following system:

FL/FR - NHT VT-2
C - NHT VS-2a
RL/RR - NHT SuperOne
Sub Amps - NHT SA-3 (x2, one per VT-2)
Pre-Amp - Emotiva DMC-1
AMP - Emotiva LPA-1
DVD - Oppo 970


I'm looking to upgrade speakers only and plan to stay 5.1 (unless someone can really convince me to go 7.1) I've been looking at the T5/T6 as well as a Classic 4 system and AV123 Rockets. I'm looking for input as to where to go from those who have heard at least 2 of the 3.

Thanks in advance

SCG

I can't comment about the Rockets, but I like the T5s better than T6s or Fours. You might not though.

What is your room like, well damped, or on the reflective side? If you have a highly reflective and/or narrow room, you can prolly eliminate the Fours right off the bat. Also, if it is a huge, cavernerous room, you can prolly eliminate the T5s since the T6s are better in that case.

If you get Fours, you could keep your SA-3 bass amp/crossovers to bi-amp the Fours with. ;)

Room is 20'x18'x9' carpeted. Leather sofa, loveseat, and man-chair (:)) with ottoman and a glass coffee table. 6 windows with 2" wood slats for the blinds - no treatments or bass traps.

More input is appreciated.

Thanks

SCG

In a carpeted room, I'd lean Fours, if music is a/the priority. T6s are probably overkill unless it's less of a room and more of an area within a room. T5s do control reflections more, but it sounds like you'd be in good shape overall. Maybe a wall hanging or two if needed.

Four bass is better than VT2 bass, a little more and a little better. T5s have notably better and more (if asked). T5s are a little more resolving and precise. Fours are much more resolving and precise than VT2s. I've never heard Rockets.

Hi all, since I don't want to read through 140 pages, :p can someone give me a quick recap of the classic two. They are on sale at my local dealer. How are they compared to the x-ls? Are they bright speakers? Thanks in advance.

Here are one person's comments on the Twos compared to some other speakers:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10542454

Alimentall

Usage will be 80% HT/20% music (probably even more towards the HT side). Any preference on (3) M5s or (3) M6s across the front and the u2 subwoofers or is the actual T5 and/or T6 system preferred?

I know in briefly reading this thread someone was saying they prefer the M5 over the M6 - any reason as to why would be appreciated.

Thanks

SCG

one thing i wonder about is how different the traces on HTM for the C3's are from the ones at:

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/nht_classic_three/

http://stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1106nht/index3.html



See, to me, I'd rather have the Threes crossed over to sealed Evo subs than the ported subs of the Fours despite any better perceived midrange transition that comes with it.

While I personally have not seen where anybody did the specific measurements John mentioned of both the Threes and Fours at the same time, even if they did, I'm sure they would have been taken with the Threes as full range (or large). I wonder if the figures would change any if they were taken with the Threes crossed over at even 80, much less 125 Hz?

The HTM measurements I mentioned though, the Four did best the Three from 200 -10,000 Hz, so crossing over the Threes, even at 125 Hz, should still have not (at least in theory anyway) effected the outcome of that any.

Here they are:

"The Four's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +0.75/–2.67 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3-dB point is at 42 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 35 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 5.24 ohms at 145 Hz and a phase angle of –69.50 degrees at 61 Hz.

...

The Three's listening-window response measures +1.05/–3.68 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. The –3-dB point is at 69 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 55 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 4.77 ohms at 143 Hz and a phase angle of –48.61 degrees at 76 Hz.—MJP"

from http://www.hometheatermag.com/completesystems/407nht/index2.html

And while I can't copy and paste it, here is the link to see where the M5 (vertically) clearly bested the Four in the same HTM measurements in all except for obviously bass extension, but when the B5 is added to the M5 to form the T5, it even bests the Four in bass extension too. :)

http://nhthifi.com/2006/press/reviews/evolution_ht.pdf

one thing i wonder about is how different the traces on HTM for the C3's are from the ones at:

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/nht_classic_three/

http://stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1106nht/index3.html


If you mean on-axis frequency response, both plots look very, very good and aren't that different when you consider that one measurement was done at 1 meter and the other at 50 inches, and that one goes up to 20kHz and the other 30kHz.

I do think it is a bit worrisome that Stereophile measured only 83dB sensitivity, and remember a few posts ago someone finding that the C2 was also inefficient.

one thing i wonder about is how different the traces on HTM for the C3's are from the ones at:

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/nht_classic_three/

http://stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1106nht/index3.html


Besides sensitivity, another little gripe I have with the C3 is THD+N, which I view as ok but not great. Compare the soundstage C3 measurements to this:
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/paradigm_studio20_v3/
particularly in the 50-100Hz region.

If you mean on-axis frequency response, both plots look very, very good and aren't that different when you consider that one measurement was done at 1 meter and the other at 50 inches, and that one goes up to 20kHz and the other 30kHz.

I do think it is a bit worrisome that Stereophile measured only 83dB sensitivity, and remember a few posts ago someone finding that the C2 was also inefficient.


no, i agree that those two plots look quite similar. what was weird though is how different the plot taken by the home theater mag looked, compared to these two.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/completesystems/407nht/index2.html

this one above that Mark posted, compared to the two I posted.

Besides sensitivity, another little gripe I have with the C3 is THD+N, which I view as ok but not great. Compare the soundstage C3 measurements to this:
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/paradigm_studio20_v3/
particularly in the 50-100Hz region.

yeah, it's still not bad and better than many there, but as you say, still not great either and there are certaintly a number on there are clearly better. i run mine with a sub, which should help some, although i don't cross it over high enough to totally remove all of that, then again i usually don't have anything close to 95dB avg listening level (even peaks are usually not that loud wiht how i usually listen) so it probably is not hurting me too much.