You're still a good 6 weeks away [end of November]for a Three or Four.
I'd say 5 weeks.[early December]
Not for about 4 weeks yet.[end of December]
Imminent being probably second week of January, to be realistic.
Looks like arrival at dealers in about 3 weeks. [early February]
I know it seems like a "Groundhog Day" loop, but we're still about 3 weeks away.[late February]
John, someone is jerking your chain. When companies do this, in my experience that means that there's something wrong: something wrong with the supplier, with QC, with finances, something.
The fact is that six months after being announced, no one knows when the 3s and 4s will ship.

Tom, of course there's something wrong, there's *always* something wrong. If I had a dollar for every time a company was wrong about a delivery date, I'd be retired. In this case, I believe it was the supplier of the dome array that was holding things up. However, I was told that the 2C/3C will show up at NHT HQ on/about the 15th, with the Three showing up about 5 days later. I don't know if anything has changed, but they seemed pretty confident about this. The same thing happened with Special Dark Xds. They said the 14th at first, but they showed up a week late. Late, but they arrived. I got a 3-pack of those yesterday and was able to deliver all of them. I also got the AZ, Two and Ten in Special Dark on Thursday in a total surprise. I didn't expect those until March or April. So, it just depends. Yes, NHT was grossly negligent in their time tables, but that's not atypical for the industry, trust me. NAD is having the same issues with its new Masters series. Things are *always* more complex than they seem. And time tables are *always* optimistic. They shouldn't be, but they just are. And we live with the errors. It's all we can do. One good thing, you've noticed that the time table has slowly narrowed from 6 to 5 to 4 to 3 to about 2 weeks out. It's not a great thing, but it is a good sign. If you're a cup half full person, anyway.

I did get the sense that, thanks to Vinci Labs funding, if there's an issue, it's not NHT that is the problem. Their 7.1 preamp/amp is, last I checked, still on for March, which is shocking in its speed. They engineered that whole system in about 2 months. THAT is impressive, when the lag time for equipment is usually about 2 years from conception to delivery. If they can pull this off in 4 months instead of 2 years, they could go head to head with Denon in delivering exotic technology almost as it appears. If I didn't get 4 new skus from NHT last week, I'd feel a little less positive, but I did, three of them completely unexpected.

Yeah, I remember the same thing happened with the L5s when they were scheduled to be released. There was a dealy with them being shipped as well. If memory serves, it was a QC issue with the integrated grill covers on them or something. Sh!t happens...

Had my money saved up for the fours and 3C but the wait was too long. Money spent. I have the AZs as surrounds and was hoping to complete the set, but now have my sights on the new Polk LSIs coming in 2007 - possibly.

Polk?!? I don't think Polk could make a speaker as good as a Four if you give them another 10 years to do it. Well, I hope the money had to go to a washer/dryer or car repair at least. I think you'll find that the Fours are/were *well* worth the wait.

I had a customer wait most of the year for Xd in black and finally got them last weekend. He was so angry most of the year, but he'd keep saying "I'm going to buy something else.......except.....crap........I really don't have a better alternative". And now he has a belated, but very large smile on his face. At least, he'd better still! I know he did when he left.

BTW, Special Dark finish is arriving at the same time as Piano Black, but in smaller quantities for those who like that. So far, everyone has really liked that finish quite a bit.

I knew that would get a rise out of Alimentall! I really like my AZs, but the wait killed me and now I have squandered my money and must wait a year or so to spend more on audio.

Sorry, you just gave me a real koyaanisqatsi moment there.

I have been waiting for what seems an eternity for the Threes.

I moved into a new house a month ago with a 12'X20' den/sunroom and suddenly new speakers don't seem so important.

My 14 year old Mirage M3s have come alive in this room. They sounded terrible in the house I rented for 14 months, and I had forgotten how they sounded for the first 13 years of their life.

I've got incredible bass again and have written the Threes off.

I may consider the Fours, but cost comes into play on the Fours. It was a nonissue with the Threes.

Yea, I think I had one of those this morning. Oh wait, did you say moment?

I've read the prior posts regarding the design of the Three C for TV-top placement. I'm early in the stages of a dedicated theater design and am an old NHT fan (having owned SuperZeros and a VS1.2a center many years ago, and having planned an NHT system for my parents, as well). Our current theater system consists of PSB Image speakers, and while they're fine, I would love to go back to NHT for this dedicated theater.

Our current iteration of the room we would build calls for roughly a 15' x 19' x 10' dimension with a front projection, with 7.1 audio. The screen wall has attic space behind it, and my current thinking is that we could build recessed specialized cabinets to hold the three fronts and the sub. I'm considering going with Threes all around (except perhaps Twos for the rear surrounds) with a Twelve sub and a Three C. My question is will the Three C might work in my system given the ability to build a cabinet around the speaker?

Any input would be appreciated! Jack Hidley--if you're reading this, I'd love your input, in particular.

KK

Cabinet placement almost always unaccepetably colors the sound of any speaker not specifically designed for such placement. An experienced installer (one who REALLY knows what he is doing) can take steps to reduce the distortion by the use of absorbant materials, but the speaker performance will still be compromised.

Looks like the Classics have some competition:

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=2816

Of course, the Vivid bookshelf is ~$13,500/pr and the 3-way center that is the same basic design as the 3C is ~$6500.

Interestingly, the design is by the guy who originally designed the 4-way B&W Nautilus speaker (which has a whole lot more in common with the NHT Four than with the Nautilus series). Apparently, he still think the multi-dome metal driver thing still has wings! (and from the price tag, a halo too!)

KK, the speakers will definitely sound better if you can put them on stands away from the wall. In my living room, I had to go to L5s because it is only 14' deep and the speakers, otherwise, would be sitting in front of the main door. So, I was *forced* to put Xds in my bedroom and set the up perfectly. In your case, however, I think you have the opportunity to do it right and have the speakers on stands. Big difference in sound field. On my L5 system, I can tell that the space isn't fully developed and that there are fronts and rears and there isn't as much soundstaging. A compromise, but it will do for the next couple of years. The other reason was that there literally was no room left after the 113" screen. The door rubs against the left L5 when it is opened fully.

Cabinet placement almost always unaccepetably colors the sound of any speaker not specifically designed for such placement. An experienced installer (one who REALLY knows what he is doing) can take steps to reduce the distortion by the use of absorbant materials, but the speaker performance will still be compromised.

I'm aware that cabinet placement will color sound--what defines unacceptable is always a matter of taste, tolerance, and (on opposing ends of the spectrum) ignorance or snobbery! :) What prompted my question was the previous post by Jack Hidley:

Tom,

The 2C and 3C are designed to sound their best when on top of a large screen TV. Given this fact, when removed from the TV, and put on a stand for use with a projector, they aren't going to sound as good. ...FYI, the closer the 2C or 3C are located to the ground, the better the frequency response will be. The ground will behave somewhat like the baffle that a large TV creates. If you put the 2C or 3C on a 24"-30" tall stand, they will definitely sound different than when placed on a large TV.

My reading of this post is that boundary reinforcement is actually good for the 3C, and that cabinet placement might actually be better than placement in the open on a stand. In other words, cabinet mounting might actually mimic the conditions (e.g., sitting on top of a TV acting as a big solid block) for which this speaker was designed. That said, I realize the dynamics are different. That said, I realize that while the 3C might actually sound better in the right recess within a wall than in the open, it's likely that the 3s would probably not sound as good.

Are there any upcoming reviews of any of these speakers?

KK, the speakers will definitely sound better if you can put them on stands away from the wall. In my living room, I had to go to L5s because it is only 14' deep and the speakers, otherwise, would be sitting in front of the main door. So, I was *forced* to put Xds in my bedroom and set the up perfectly. In your case, however, I think you have the opportunity to do it right and have the speakers on stands. On my L5 system, I can tell that the space isn't fully developed and that there are fronts and rears and there isn't as much soundstaging.

John,

See my immediately previous reply--I'm not sure that Jack would agree that the 3C would sound better on a stand--it seemed, in fact, that he was saying exactly the opposite.

Sadly, there are multiple factors at play here (unlike my equipment-heavy dorm rooms and my first bachelor pads). Cost, aesthetics, the all-important WAF and, in my case, triplet toddlers. That last fact, unfortunately, precludes the use of expensive speakers on stands in the front of the room (which will also serve as an occasional play area for the kids when the room isn't being used for my primary purpose).

It's notable also that NHT recommends that all of the front speakers rest in the same plane. Considering all of these factors together, I could wall mount the 3s and the 3C in the same plane (but then suffer Jack's warning about suboptimal placement without something like a large TV providing a boundary for the 3C). My alternate compromise was the cabinet idea (doing what is possible acoustically to limit any adverse consequences).

This does evoke a more philosophical question--is it better to place better speakers in suboptimal positions, or to buy lesser speakers optimized for the space? My initial reaction is to go with these speakers (assuming I hear them and they are as good as I expect!) and fit them into my less than ideal constraints. Perhaps what I'm hearing is that wall mounting all three front speakers might be better than the cabinet idea (though I'd probably still stick the sub in a cabinet and balance the output accordingly). My feeling is that even though they'd less than optimally situated, that I'll probably still end up quite happy!

Are there any upcoming reviews of any of these speakers?

Maybe in 6-12 months, due to lag time.

Well, I'm not so sure I agree *exactly* with how Jack phrased that. I think all speakers sound better away from the wall due to the lack of early reflections. I think what he's saying is that the *tonal balance* is optimized for being on a large object as they've taken into account the impact on the bass of the speaker. A Three would sound better on a stand than a 3C in any event and it would make no sense to put a 3C on a stand if you could just as easily do a Three. No matter what speaker you put in a cabinet, you'll get some negative effects from that. But that's just reality. Any bass issues and chestiness could be ameliorated with proper crossover selections. So, I wouldn't worry about it, I'd probably do exactly what you're doing, wait for the triplets to grow up a little, then maybe go to stands if you can. By that time, speakers will all be digital and it will be a whole new ball game and a whole new conversation!

Well, I'm not so sure I agree *exactly* with how Jack phrased that. I think all speakers sound better away from the wall due to the lack of early reflections. I think what he's saying is that the *tonal balance* is optimized for being on a large object as they've taken into account the impact on the bass of the speaker. A Three would sound better on a stand than a 3C in any event and it would make no sense to put a 3C on a stand if you could just as easily do a Three. No matter what speaker you put in a cabinet, you'll get some negative effects from that. But that's just reality. Any bass issues and chestiness could be ameliorated with proper crossover selections. So, I wouldn't worry about it, I'd probably do exactly what you're doing, wait for the triplets to grow up a little, then maybe go to stands if you can. By that time, speakers will all be digital and it will be a whole new ball game and a whole new conversation!

I appreciate all of your thoughts on this subject. One more interesting tidbit from the Three manual. It states that the 3s may be wall mounted, stand mounted, or bookshelf mounted. The next sentence states that NHT recommends stand or bookshelf mounting. If so, then my recessed cabinets (which will be equivalent to bookshelves, though customized visually for speakers) would appear reasonable, though I haven't ruled out wall mounting the front 3s and a 3c. Nor have I ruled out using 4s in the fronts, though that would probably require (due to $$) going with the smaller 10 sub. Of course all of this is speculation, until I get my builders to tell me how much the room itself will cost (and how much will be left for the fun stuff).

The trick is designing around these variables absent hard information about how each of the possible design changes might affect the acoustics. I think no matter what happens I'll be happy in the end, given the many good options available.

If you get Fours, you won't need a sub, let alone a 10" one!

Sorry but this is a bit off topic, what amps are you guys using to power your NHT's?

Trying to determine how well the Four would work in my setup.

11'8" X 21'11" X 8' height room with system on the short wall.

Currently running Mirage M3s with Sony 42A10 and Sony ES 333 receiver with 755 and 975 DVD players.
M3s are 18" front X 8" deep(not including base) X 53" tall.

Fours are 7.5" front X 16" deep by 41" tall.

Obviously I have already turned the M3s perpendicular to the wall to approximate the Fours dimensions(funny how they are almost identical).

So the Fours appear to fit physically in the M3s space.
They would also be a lot less imposing because they are 13" shorter.

My question:
How will the side firing woofer work in my room?
Do they fire inward(pics have them that way)?
Will bass be similiar to the m3s?
Will bass sound disjointed since they are firing to the side?
According to NHT the Fours will go lower than my M3s. Hard to believe.
M3s are 32Hz -2db and 25Hz -10db.
Fours are 27Hz at(?db).

How is the dispersion overall compared to the M3s?
I realize we are talking about a point source vs. a bipolar speaker so there will be differences.

Sony ES will be traded out probably for Parasound or NAD.

I bought some SuperTwos off a friend not too long ago. I wonder if these would be a good choice to match them sonicly?

If you get Fours, you won't need a sub, let alone a 10" one!

Perhaps a dumb question, but how do you input the LFE channel to the system? I have no doubt that the lower extension from the fronts would be phenomenal, but wonder if the sub would be needed to handle the LFE channel. I assume I must be missing something, so please clue me in!

-KK

11'8" X 21'11" X 8' height room with system on the short wall.

One key thing here is to not put them too close to the wall. What you should do is measure the distance from your head to the speaker. Then put a mirror on the wall so you can see the speaker, then measure the distance from the speaker to the mirror and from the mirror to you. It should be 5'-6' (or more) longer. There is a way to fix this if it isn't, but it requires hanging things on your wall.

How will the side firing woofer work in my room?

Woofers essentially don't care unless they're really close to something.

Do they fire inward(pics have them that way)?

Either way, which ever works best.

Will bass be similiar to the m3s?

Different probably. A little weightier, but less warm and soft.

Will bass sound disjointed since they are firing to the side?

No, not at all.

According to NHT the Fours will go lower than my M3s. Hard to believe.

Not that hard to believe if you know NHT!

How is the dispersion overall compared to the M3s?

Wider, but it doesn't have the reverberant field from the back wall. Set up properly, the sound will be cleaner in a narrow room.

I bought some SuperTwos off a friend not too long ago. I wonder if these would be a good choice to match them sonicly?

Well, technically no, but they'd be a good temporary choice. No speaker will match any other speakers really well unless they share the same drivers and design.

Perhaps a dumb question, but how do you input the LFE channel to the system? I have no doubt that the lower extension from the fronts would be phenomenal, but wonder if the sub would be needed to handle the LFE channel. I assume I must be missing something, so please clue me in!

The receiver will simply redirect the LFE channel to the towers. Nothing goes missing. In essence, the LFE is pretty much a duplication of the bass from the other channels anyway. What they *should* have done was to have bass management for a subwoofer, but have the .1 channel be a "special effects" channel for a bass transducer only, not for a subwoofer, thereby allowing a system to be a 5.1+1 setup or 5.0+1 or something like that. But that's not what we got, so there's little creative use of that channel and it's basically redundant and you can simply add it in with the other channels without losing a thing anyway. Completely useless, really, as it is used. So, even if you were to lose it (and you don't), it wouldn't matter anyway, thereby giving you two reasons not to worry about it.

In essence, the LFE is pretty much a duplication of the bass from the other channels anyway.

Not the place for it, but that is not true. Many times, the LFE is it's own independent channel -- no other channels receive that signal. I won't argue with anyone running the front mains as large speakers, as people have different rooms and tastes, but I firmly believe in the use of a subwoofer for at least the LFE channel.

Oh, and I'm pretty anxious to hear these Fours....hopefully the local dealers here have actual showrooms unlike the last NHT "dealer" I visited.

Not the place for it, but that is not true.

Well, it seems to be true more often than it isn't, I'm afraid. Not that it matters, it's why we can fold it into the fronts. Because of the way the system is done, there's not much reason to differentiate it. And, unless everything is phased right, an LFE sub with large speakers is more likely to cancel than add. It's why I recommend dual subs with satellites over towers with a single sub.

I like ,often, to have the ability to blend in the sub to the towers at a much lower freq.

Alimental,

Thanks for the repsonse and the advice.
I think I have more trepidation about going with a point source type speaker than I
do about buying new speakers in general.
The Mirages are old friends and I am comfortable with their voicing and soundstage.

I am sure my dealer will let me take the Fours home for a demo.

It will be interesting to have a speaker that will go even lower than the M3s.(not that I am that much into bass). Just spoiled I guess.
I wonder what the Fours are rated at -10db?

I also think this new room I am in will be able to handle the more accurate highs of the Fours than my other house was.

Well, it seems to be true more often than it isn't, I'm afraid. Not that it matters, it's why we can fold it into the fronts. Because of the way the system is done, there's not much reason to differentiate it. And, unless everything is phased right, an LFE sub with large speakers is more likely to cancel than add. It's why I recommend dual subs with satellites over towers with a single sub.

Interesting debate regarding the value (and role) of the LFE channel over the past few posts. Given your last sentence, would you recommend a U2 (perhaps with 3s and a 3c in the front) over the 10 or 12? Since I also like the idea of a sub receiving a dedicated LFE signal, perhaps I'd be happier going that way (though I expect two channel sound would be much better with the 4s rather than a U2/3 combination).

In thinking about this further, another alternate approach might be to add a dedicated amplifier and bi-amp the fours (and then route the LFE there), correct?

KK

kktx,

Hmmmm.
Hadn't thought of that.
Would you crossover at 80Hz?

kktx,

Hmmmm.
Hadn't thought of that.
Would you crossover at 80Hz?

Yes--I probably would, if I went this route. Interested in what others might think!

Well, technically, a Three/U1 or U2 combo would be a bit better than a Four, even bi-amped, as would a Three with dual Twelves. I'm trying to convince NHT to do a "Classified" version of the U1/U2 or the Xd subwoofer for the Threes AND/OR a "Classic Five" AND/OR a dual woofer, tower version of the Three. Not doing well as far as I can tell, but I persevere.

Hey Jack!
Do the new THREE & FOUR have the Mid & Tweeter wired in reverse polarity in relation to the Woofers like the 2.9 & 3.3?
The FOUR might fill the bill as full range rears!

Is Jack still visiting these forums... no response to this question?

Well, technically, a Three/U1 or U2 combo would be a bit better than a Four, even bi-amped, as would a Three with dual Twelves. I'm trying to convince NHT to do a "Classified" version of the U1/U2 or the Xd subwoofer for the Threes AND/OR a "Classic Five" AND/OR a dual woofer, tower version of the Three. Not doing well as far as I can tell, but I persevere.

Perhaps that would be a good match for me (U2+3s). I like the flexibility of the outboard amplification with the U2, as well. Thanks for the input.

I know options are vast on the preferences for mid-level receivers, Denon, Yamaha or Pioneer. I have listened and owned the various 1K models of each and also owned older sets of SB1 and SuperTwos. I am awaiting the avail of the Threes but I am also in the market for a 1K receiver. With feature sets aside, which historically and best guess on upcoming Threes as to which 1K AVR mates nicely to NHTs? I keep coming back to NAD lines but can not locate a local store that provide NAD and NHT in the same shop. I am 70% HT and 30% music. Is NAD still a good fit for the NHTs, or does others fall into the mix knowing NHT performance? Thanks for the input...

For 1K AVRs, I would short list NAD, HK, and Marantz.

Maybe the Cambridge Audio AVR as well.

The Sherwood Newcastle made Boston Acoustics AVR for $999 should definitely be considered.

Robert,

Don't know where you are located but if you are in South Carolina
there is a shop in Charleston that carries both NHT and NAD and also Denon.
PM me or post here and I will give it to you.

They are also a Parasound HALO dealer.

How close are we to the Threes and Four's availability?
Anyone?

Johnathan from NHT told my gf 4 or 5 days ago that it would now be in early March...So I would be willing to bet its mid-late March.

NHT originally introduced these speakers (with different model numbers) at in an official newsletter in December of 2004
http://www.nhthifi.com/press/newsletters/Holiday2004.htm
They were shown at CES in January and were to be relased shortly after. They later withdrew them for unstated reasons.

The official reannouncement of these speakers, now branded as the Classic line, was made again in August of 2005 just prior to CEDIA. Again, the release date was scheduled for shortly afterwards.

We are now almost in March of 2006, 15 months after the original announcement and these speakers (at least the 3-way versions) still have not been released. I think we are very close to a vaporware situation. Until someone actually sees these on a showroom floor available for sale, I would not take very seriously any predictions about imminent release. These guys have an abyssmal track record on this.

We are now almost in March of 2006, 15 months after the original announcement and these speakers (at least the 3-way versions) still have not been released. I think we are very close to a vaporware situation. Until someone actually sees these on a showroom floor available for sale, I would not take very seriously any predictions about imminent release. These guys have an abyssmal track record on this.

I have already moved into another direction with my purchase of speakers. How long are we to wait... Maybe NHT should refrain from making any announcement until there in hand. They have lost this customer. I was set to purchase 2 - 4s, 4 - 3s, 1 - 3c, and a twelve for my theater room... Maybe in a few years when they begin showing up on Ebay I may look again... Shame on NHT...

m*design eleganza streamline towers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

different people entitled to a different oppinion. i purchased 2 pairs of 7' streamline towers over a year ago to replace my aging nht 3.3(2 pairs) speakers. their mids and their staging just beautiful. their look is up to ones individual taste. these towers will have u close your eyes. and open your ears for a wonderful experience. have a glass of wine and listen to angelical music.

Look out Monsters have come into the NHT thread ;)

While I understand the frustration, anyone who buys something now instead of waiting a few more weeks will eventually regret it. The performance of these is simply stunning for the money. Or even regardless of it.

Regarding the Monster speakers, I haven't heard them, but several people have come in after hearing them to tell me how incredibly poor sounding they were. Could be the setup, but with so many people saying it, I doubt it will cause me any losses. The only thing causing me issues is NHT's inability to get these out on time. Besides, the Monster speakers aren't really very good designs. They're lifesyle designs.

I have already moved into another direction with my purchase of speakers. How long are we to wait... Maybe NHT should refrain from making any announcement until there in hand. They have lost this customer. I was set to purchase 2 - 4s, 4 - 3s, 1 - 3c, and a twelve for my theater room... Maybe in a few years when they begin showing up on Ebay I may look again... Shame on NHT...

I too feel your pain.But,do you really not have the patience to wait 7,14,or maybe at most 30 days for some speakers that may very well be worth all the wait? For the kind of money you are spending I just hope you dont make an irrational decision and spend all that loot on some speakers that arent as good just because they didnt arrive when they said they would.I already paid Alimentall for mine so I know how hard it is to wait for something you want so bad.I just hope you dont regret not waiting just a little bit longer.

Besides, the Monster speakers aren't really very good designs. They're lifesyle designs.

While not my cup of tea, line driver arrays have a lot of advocates, and I don't want to confuse trying to "dress-up" a speaker with trying to build for looks FIRST and sound second. The Monsters are by no means "pretty", and they don't have much WAF except in a very modern decor room.

I too feel your pain.But,do you really not have the patience to wait 7,14,or maybe at most 30 days for some speakers that may very well be worth all the wait? For the kind of money you are spending I just hope you dont make an irrational decision and spend all that loot on some speakers that arent as good just because they didnt arrive when they said they would.I already paid Alimentall for mine so I know how hard it is to wait for something you want so bad.I just hope you dont regret not waiting just a little bit longer.

I have plenty of patience. Let's mark this date - 30 days from today and you will have your speakers on or before March 26th. Going back to the very first post, NHT says they were to be out in October of 2005, of which was 148 days ago. What happen, did the boat sink, get lost, decided to cross the Bermuda Triangle never to be seen again...

My question - Do I really want to own a set of speakers that the company can not even post on their website of why the delay? NHT can't even be up front with their distributors let alone tell the public of what is causing the delay...

My hard earn dollars will be spent with someone that has my best interest at heart, that cares for those that back their company and will return my emails…

I have plenty of patience. Let's mark this date - 30 days from today and you will have your speakers on or before March 26th. Going back to the very first post, NHT says they were to be out in October of 2005, of which was 148 days ago. What happen, did the boat sink, get lost, decided to cross the Bermuda Triangle never to be seen again...

Actually, that was the Absolute Zeros, Twos, Tens and Twelves, all of which arrived in November. A bit late, but not much. The Three/Four/2C/3C were scheduled for late November.

My question - Do I really want to own a set of speakers that the company can not even post on their website of why the delay? NHT can't even be up front with their distributors let alone tell the public of what is causing the delay...

It's manufacturing delays because of vendors. They can't really control it, though I do believe they should adopt a policy of "no announcements until it's rolling off the assembly line".

My hard earn dollars will be spent with someone that has my best interest at heart, that cares for those that back their company and will return my emails…

Well, I don't know that any company has anybody's best interest at heart. They want to build products, sell products, make money. Each has their own style. I like NHT's style in general, but they sure could have handled this better. But it's not like they *meant* to do it. They just (again) made the mistake of announcing a product before it was ready to be built in quantity.

NHT4life, with 9 posts and such dogged determination to stick with this until death, you are, indeed, a rare and admirable anomolie amongst consumers.

My question - Do I really want to own a set of speakers that the company can not even post on their website of why the delay? NHT can't even be up front with their distributors let alone tell the public of what is causing the delay...

My hard earn dollars will be spent with someone that has my best interest at heart, that cares for those that back their company and will return my emails…

Delays can occur, even repeated ones, look at past situations with some ID electronics (pre-pros), etc.. Anticipated like the second coming, Nothing new .

Well as for NHT not responding,you must be referring to them when they were owned by Fosgate,cuz now that Vinci Labs took ownership they have gotten back to me both times I left a message in less that 30 minutes(not bad at all).And,could it be remotely possible that changing ownership could be reason for these delays?Maybe or maybe not.I'm not trying to make excuses for them but it could be one thats legit.

I am not trying to defend them either but just off the top of my head I remember a flagship Mirage speaker that was to cost $20K that never came to market
and a higher end Parasound amp and prepro that eventually became the HALO line several years after it was first shown.

I would have to agree that NHT has muffed this. The SB line has been out of production
for a while and Iam sure the dealers need product.

Also we have not heard any feedback from ANYONE on how thee Twos sound.
There is literally no info on the internet about these speakers.

Also we have not heard any feedback from ANYONE on how thee Twos sound.
There is literally no info on the internet about these speakers.

http://forum.adnm.com/viewtopic.php?t=567&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
http://forum.adnm.com/viewtopic.php?t=542

John,

Thanks for the links, I am a member there but did not read past the orignal posts, several months ago.

I need more than 2 different opinions, but ultimately it will be my ears that are the judge.

There were some comments about them being bright. This would usually turn me off, but I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and wait till I get to demo the Fours in my house.
I am assuming what might sound bright on the AZ would probably not be as bright on a Four due to different voicing from the larger cabinet.
Looking forward to hearing how they do the center image and their soundstage.
This is what attracted me to the SuperOne several years ago.

I think there are more positive opinions out there. I saw some on another site, I forget which one though. One guy on Audio Asylum seemed to think that the Revel M12s "blew away" the Twos in "every way". Not really likely, YMMV, I suspect he latched onto the great efficiency of the Revels in a direct A/B test. Even with a speaker I don't like or find dissatisfying, I can find elements that it does better than a speaker I do like.

Interestingly, I thought the AZ was just a bit bright, I even asked NHT whether it wouldn't be a good idea to mellow them just a tad. But, I traded in some JMLabs and Axioms and then listening to the AZ was like "sweet, smooth, silky" by comparison. I do think there might be just a slight upper midrange bump in the 2kHz-3kHz range that might be causing that, but I haven't seen the FR on it. But the treble is very smooth, very well sorted. I think the treble on the Super Audio/Classic series is obviously better than most high-end speakers I've ever heard. Even some $10K and $20K speakers. They just got that tweeter right. The Two does sound *very* smooth by any standard and is both more refined and more detailed than the SB2/SB3 with more "presence" and soundstaging. Most of my customers are waiting for the Three simply because they're blown away by the AZ and Two, so they can't wait to hear what the Threes will offer. I already know, but it's just hard for people to wrap their heads around it ;)

when my Threes come in I will take them to the Revel Dealer and do an A/B on them.I sure hope the Three's sound better considering they cost $150 more

The NHTs will have better dispersion, should have more resolution and a more controlled, more focused bass. How that is perceived, however, is purely subjective.

I am more than sure Bose would be happy to return your e-mails to show they have your "best interests at heart"! :p

B&W 703, 705, HTM7, and SW750 will be the replacement for the speakers that NHT can not deliver...

Ailment , time to show him the graphs on Kevlar ! ;)

Oh God, now you've done it ! The one speaker company that keeps taking so many of his potential customers out of the market.....wait a minute!, he always has used ones he bought back from the poor uneducated people that bought them BEFORE being enlightened by him with NHT!

Here comes more of the commercial...........

B&W 703, 705, HTM7, and SW750 will be the replacement for the speakers that NHT can not deliver...

I'll just leave it at OOPS.

Well, okay, I can't resist this:

http://www.cifrovik.ru/cifrovik/services/catalog/images/7106-photo-extra-1.jpg

The original Nautilus, the best speaker B&W has ever made

4-way design
aluminum dome tweeter
aluminum dome midrange
aluminum midbass driver
aluminum subwoofer
~$50,000/pr (or so)

http://www.adnm.com/images/nht_four.jpg

The NHT Four

4-way design
aluminum dome tweeter
aluminum dome midrange
aluminum midbass
aluminum subwoofer
$1,800/pr

http://www.vividspeakers.com/images/b1.jpg

The new Vivid B1, by the former B&W engineer who built the original Nautilus:

3-way design
aluminum dome tweeter
aluminum dome midrange
aluminum midbass
~$13,000/pr

http://www.adnm.com/images/nht_three.jpg

The NHT Three

3-way design
aluminum dome tweeter
aluminum dome midrange
aluminum midbass

$800/pr

http://www.vividspeakers.com/images/c1.jpg

The Vivid C1, also designed by the same guy who designed the best B&W speaker ever

3-way design
aluminum dome tweeter
aluminum dome midrange
(2) aluminum midbass drivers
$~6,500

http://www.adnm.com/images/nht_3c.jpg

The NHT 3C

3-way design
aluminum dome tweeter
aluminum dome midrange
(2) aluminum midbass drivers
$600

When you're taking ultra-exotic design and technology and dropping it to about 5-10% of the cost so that normal mortals can afford and enjoy it, somehow, someway, you deserve a little extra leeway.

'Nuff said?

Well, okay, I can't resist this:

When you're taking ultra-exotic design and technology and dropping it to about 5-10% of the cost so that normal mortals can afford and enjoy it, somehow, someway, you deserve a little extra leeway.

'Nuff said?

John, that was an unfair comparison on your part, wasn’t it? Why not use speakers that are more the price range then the ones you wanted to point out... 'Nuff said?

http://www.audiorevolution.com/gifs/equipsections/b%26w703/b%26w703nogrill.gif

http://stereophile.com/images/archivesart/204bw.1.jpg

http://www.bwspeakers.com/images/SpeakerModel/images/HTM7/htm7_main.jpg

http://www.bwspeakers.com/images/SpeakerModel/images/ASW750/ACF1E.jpg

I'd be glad to do a technical blow by blow, but do you really want to know?

How long does the store give you to return your speakers?

I'd be glad to do a technical blow by blow, but do you really want to know?

Go for it, you have already wasted enough time preaching NHT line and getting everyone worked up for speakers that do not exist. I guess a little more time on your part is not going to hurt… I do not believe I have ever seen someone so possessive over the line of speakers he sells and when someone does not want to buy into the hoopla you become even more possessive to proof your weighted point…

I'm serious, do you actually want to know, or do you just want to own B&Ws and be happy? So far, it sounds like you don't even *like* NHT, let alone want to know anything about the Three/Four design. I had a customer who was going to buy 703s because that's how much he had to spend with B&W to be happy. Well, right up until he heard the Twos, and that changed everything. IMO, the Twos are notably better than the 703/705/HTM7 combo for about 1/3rd the price, so if you can't wait for the Three/Four, why would spend 3 times as much when the Two/Twelve setup is available *yesterday*? Unless you just want to own B&Ws, which is fine, if that's what you want. On a technical level, the only thing in B&W's line that compares technically to the Four is the $50K Nautilus. But the Two/Twelve is more than up to the 703's performance, but the system is dramatically better matched. The 703 doesn't match the HTM7 or the 705s. And the ported designs don't blend as well with the sub as the Two would. Comparing the Three/Four to the 703/705 is not fair to the 703/705, to be honest. How much time do you have?

Who cares how much time he has....I've got till my Three's come in,so let the games begin !
I love being educated.Has anyone looked at the comparison made by an editor at Soundstage between the Revel M12's vs. the Energy RC-10?That guy gave the Energy more praise than I've ever seen anyone give to a speaker.Kinda makes me wanna do a A/B/C since the Revel dealer carries the Energy line as well.God I LOVE debates....errr education,errr arguements.
Couse,the bottom line is buy what your ears like.My ears like NHT,yours may prefer B&W.Just dont let the B&W stand for Bitching & Whining when you get them home.

One more thing about a time not long ago when I audtioned the B&W line.When the local dealer did the A/B switching between the floorstanders and the bookshelves he did something that I thought was very unethical,he had rear surrounds playing to *enhance* the sound of the bookshelves.Sure it made them sound better but I wasnt there to buy 2 pairs of speakers.This trickery and the fact that the floorstanders sounded very inferior to my own setup(NHT SB-3's and Hsu STF-2)that I decided to once again go back to NHT.Besides,I havent read any articles about B&W speakers being a good Bang 4 the Buck speaker(except those little crappy DM303's),which is quite the opposite for NHT speakers.John can you go in a little bit further on how the Threes sounded at CES?I would like to know your impressions in a lil bit more elaborate post.Thanks,
C Beller

I just went a NHT dealer showroom earlier and heard the twos on its own. It still has the classic NHT sound smooth but still lacking that last bit of details or air if I may say. I am really hoping to hear the three's but aprils still the time it should arrive =p The speakers I have been looking at like the B&W 705 =p and M&K 750 & Thiels 1.6 are all actually closer to the Fours range, so I really hope the threes and fours come really soon.

The Twos goes really low for such a small bookshelf. Dynamics is pretty good if I may say so.

Oliver

The speakers I have been looking at like the B&W 705 =p and M&K 750 & Thiels 1.6

Also audition the B&W CM1's ($850PR)

Aren't Thiels a little more bright or forward sounding?

John can you go in a little bit further on how the Threes sounded at CES?I would like to know your impressions in a lil bit more elaborate post.

Charlie, I wish I could. I like to hear things side by side other references so that I keep my opinions well-grounded. However, they did throw a large soundstage as expected and the detail was exceptional. I could hear way into the mix and pick apart the many instruments without trying. But most notable is what they *didn't* do. They didn't have any edginess or brightness or resonance that I could hear. Smooth and detailed. I would put these up against any bookshelf at any price (so far). I'll be more specific when I can compare these to some more notable speakers.

Coues, no one can wait forever, but given your first post was "I can't wait anymore", we can't tell that you've *ever* been waiting. As I said, I'd take 5 Twos and an SW12 over the 703 system any day for 1/3rd the price. Twos play louder without strain, are perfectly matched and blend beautifully with a sub. And why not the T5 system? The one that beat out the CDM9s for HT's mid level speaker of the year? That's *still* only 2/3rd the price of the 703 system. In fact, you could by the "Class A" rated NHT T6 for about the same price as the 703 system! It's like you're saying you'll buy a $25K Harley (ovepriced, underperforming) because Ducati doesn't have its new $8K Monster out yet, and despite the fact that the upper end, albeit models are still available. WTF?

Oliver, one thing I can tell you is that the Twos are more detailed than the *seem*. Not as detailed as the Three or the Xd, of course, but as detailed as most bookshelf speakers on the market, certainly under about $2K. I've heard a few JMLabs with more detail. The thing is, most detail in most 6" midranges is *faked*. Simply allow some cone resonances through (metal, carbon, kevlar) and voila, "detail". Or make the speaker bright in the upper midrange or treble. I can assure you that, having heard a lot of B&Ws and other speakers that the Twos are *very* detailed. However, the warmth and smoothness of them makes it seem like they're not as detailed. But, take a CD that has hard to understand vocals in them and play it on the Twos and just hear how much easier it is to understand them. Listening to B&Ws, even stuff like Diamonds and it's like "it sounds detailed, but why can't I understand the vocalist". For instance, when we compared the 803D to the Xd, there was simply no comparison, the 803s made the musicians sound like they were standing behind each other and when the switch was made to the Xds, those instruments spread through the soundfield and an unheard piano simply popped out into its own space. With the 803Ds, you could hear that it was a dense mix, but you couldn't possibly know how many instruments there were. With Xd, you could count each one easily. I believe the Three is capable of doing very close to that kind of resolution, which is why I plan on trading in quite a few 705s and 805s (and a bunch of other stuff) for them.

I just had a customer trade in a whole $8000+ Legacy system towards the Threes simply based on the sound of the Twos.

Oliver, one thing I can tell you is that the Twos are more detailed than the *seem*. Not as detailed as the Three or the Xd, of course, but as detailed as most bookshelf speakers on the market, certainly under about $2K. I've heard a few JMLabs with more detail. The thing is, most detail in most 6" midranges is *faked*. Simply allow some cone resonances through (metal, carbon, kevlar) and voila, "detail". Or make the speaker bright in the upper midrange or treble. I can assure you that, having heard a lot of B&Ws and other speakers that the Twos are *very* detailed. However, the warmth and smoothness of them makes it seem like they're not as detailed. But, take a CD that has hard to understand vocals in them and play it on the Twos and just hear how much easier it is to understand them. Listening to B&Ws, even stuff like Diamonds and it's like "it sounds detailed, but why can't I understand the vocalist". For instance, when we compared the 803D to the Xd, there was simply no comparison, the 803s made the musicians sound like they were standing behind each other and when the switch was made to the Xds, those instruments spread through the soundfield and an unheard piano simply popped out into its own space. With the 803Ds, you could hear that it was a dense mix, but you couldn't possibly know how many instruments there were. With Xd, you could count each one easily. I believe the Three is capable of doing very close to that kind of resolution, which is why I plan on trading in quite a few 705s and 805s (and a bunch of other stuff) for them.

I just had a customer trade in a whole $8000+ Legacy system towards the Threes simply based on the sound of the Twos.

I know where you are coming from John and in a way I do agree with you. I am a little worried about the metal tweeter though. So far after every long auditions of metal tweeter speakers, My ears rings the next day. I had the pleasure of going to a friends place just yesterday and sat down to listen to a pair of Marten Design Coltrane (US$50K!!!!!) with AR tube pres and mono blocks and wow. Details and dynamics, blow by blow the sound jsut blows you away. I was listening to many tracks for over an hour and guess what, my ears ring the next day. Really not sure if its my ear or what, or I am just allergic to metal tweeters. I have to say I was using Mirage OM14 for about 5 years which has a metal tweeter but their speakers does have a shelfed top end. But I still went back to a fabric tweeter for the next few years. Could be the breakup of metal tweeters? Could be just me. But I really hope the Threes and Fours start shipping next week =p

Oliver

Oliver, I do have only *one* person who's ever complained about the new NHT tweeter. What's funny is that he likes the B&W tweeter, which drives me crazy (they typically have a 9-10kHz peak). I don't know what the deal is unless he doesn't like the room or whatever or is having a placebo effect. In any case, the .75" tweeter on the Three/Four should push the oil can resonance to something like 25kHz-30kHz, somewhere in there, much higher than on a conventional 1" aluminum dome, which, by nature are almost always in the 19kHz-22kHz range.

I do understand soft domes, though, to me, they have their own distortions that reduce the realism of cymbals and other high percussion instruments because they absorb some of the attack. But they do sound smoother, warmer, easier on the ears. In the end, it always has to be what you like.

I can say that nobody is more anxious to get Threes in the house than I am. Nobody. But like when I am waiting for my dish network 622 HD/MPEG4 PVR, I can do nothing but wait because there simply is no good alternative but to suck it up and wait. I've been waiting since January and it's going to be another week or two at least. :(

If the Threes weren't so out of this world in design and execution, I could see people moving on, but they are and the wait, no matter how painful is well worth it. If Lamborghini said it was lowering the price of the Diablo to $30K because of new mass production techniques, I think people would manage to wait for it until they get it off the presses.

I do agree that metal tweeters still sound most real on cymbals and percussions. Lets hope this next week/2 weeks is really real this time =p I am also just as impatient about this wait.

Oliver

I used to play the drums and a pair of open high hats or a China cymbal hit hard will practically take your head off.
Not sure if I actually want to hear the realism in my living room though.

I had a revelation a couple of years ago when I heard Keb Mo's "Henry" on some Maggies.
The ride cymbal had this huge spread that made the it sound like it was 2-3 feet in diameter.
On my Mirage M3s(non si w/ soft dome) it sounds like it is only 3-4inches in diameter.

I hate what maggies do to cymbals.

Please elaborate.This was the only song I heard on them and it is a pretty quiet laid back cut so I don't know how they would sound with other types of music.

Maggies most all seem to have a big upper treble peak that makes the cymbals sound "wispy". There's no "bell" tone on a ride, just a "shhh, shhh, shhh" sound that drives me crazy. Not that noticeable on classical music though.

Back to the subject, let me offer a simple outline of what makes the Three, Four, 3C such outstanding speakers on a technical level.

Midrange - metal drivers are lower in distortion because they are more rigid and transfer more energy into the air without absorbing or shifting this energy into distortion as does paper, poly, kevlar, etc. You get lower inband distortion, but high frequency, hopefully out of bandwidth distortion goes through the roof. Most speakers use poly or paper because they are better behaved. They give you, say, 80% performance in band and 70% out of band. Metal can give you more like 95% performance inband, but maybe 40% performance out of band. The trick is to remove out of band info.

So, with the more rigid, more detailed 6.5" midrange, you need to cross it over low, below 1000Hz, not the typical 3000-4000Hz. A tweeter can't go that low, so the dome midrange takes over. This means we've isolated the best aspects of the aluminum midbass driver - almost pure clarity with vanishly low distortion compared to a typical 6" midrange in upper bass/low mids. This is enhanced by the 1.5" baffle and poured composite frame which has lower resonance than metal.

The 2" dome adds even more performance. Most every bookshelf and tower has mediocre to poor upper midrange dispersion and distortion attributes. 6.5" midranges start beaming by ~2000Hz meaning a lack of natural "presence" in sound. And since a 2" dome is FAR more rigid and light than *any* 6" driver, it is much more effective and producing resolution with virtually zero cone resonance. Cone resonance is something that plagues most speakers, but B&Ws specifically because of their high frequency, low slope crossovers that are inappropriate for Kevlar. Revel uses far more scientific crossover/driver choices, so it's not just NHT. So, the midrange of the Three/Four offers virtually unparalleled dispersion and resonance characteristics.

The 2" dome also allows for a smaller tweeter crossed higher. The .75" tweeter in use will have wider dispersion above 10khz than a 1" dome for more "air". And the smaller dome is lighter and more rigid. At the very least, this yields a higher resonance frequency. In essence, this dome will perform more like a diamond or beryllium tweeter, but without the added cost. But it has one big advantage - dispersion.

Moreover, in general, each driver is handling a smaller bandwidth than a 3-way. That means it is easier to get a blend from each driver to the next. And, since they are all of the same material (and because they are lower distortion), the blend is further enhanced. Each driver has to handle about 2.5 octaves, not 3.3. And the 10" bass driver will go much lower, not requiring a subwoofer

So, a Four tower, compared to a typical 3-way tower like the 703 will have wider dispersion and smoother upper treble, it will have far more resolving and wider dispersion sound in the upper midrange/lower treble, it will have much more midbass detail and a better blend with the bass. The bass will be deeper with higher output and a more effortless sound and "oomph". The Four goes about 1/2 octave lower than a speaker with 6"-7" woofers and sounds better doing it.

Moreover, as you can see with the 703, the center channel uses a different driver and configuration as compared to the 3-way tower. The 703 uses a fixed suspension driver (a REALLY bad design, but that's for another thread sometime) instead. The 705s match the HTM7, but not the 703. But 703 is going to vent out of phase bass in the 40-50Hz region, right in the middle of the bass range. The 705/HTM is going to vent out of phase bass in the 60-70Hz range and added distortion and noise through the low midrange. And the 703 will likely have different phase characteristics in the midrange/bass compared to the 705/HTM which will yield less accurate and natural imaging. The Three/Four/3C doesn't have this problem because the mid/treble driver complement is the same and the Fours crossover is low enough to stay out of the way of the midrange sound.

Compared to the mighty Nautilus speaker, the Four has several performance advantages. First, the .75" tweeter will outperform the 1" Nautilus tweeter. The 2" dome is a wash as they are, in theory, equal. The Nautilus midbass, however, is too small for the 12" woofer. It needs to be a 6" for the best blend. However, B&W seems to like a thin low mid/upper bass region. This is why most B&W fans LOVE female vocals for demo purposes. However, put on a male voice and it shows the problem. So, the Four has a better midbass choice for a better mid/bass transition. The Nautilus gets points for the acoustic suspension/transmission line cabinet design, but, hey, it's got to do *something* cool for the 25x price differential :)

In any case, the Three has idealized dispersion and distortion characteristics that no 2-way bookshelf can match and adds the improved transient response of the acoustic suspension design. The Four adds bass to this nearly ideal design and really can only be faulted for having a ported bass design over a more expensive to implement acoustic suspension one. That would have required either a large box or powered design with EQ. I am *hoping* to convince NHT to build a $2500-$3000 "Five", but we'll see. The Three does the 8 octaves a bookshelf can really handle about as well as is technically possible and far better than many $2500-$5000 bookshelf designs. The Fours do 9-9.5 octaves out of 10 about as well as is possible. I can't think of a single speaker, however, that has idealized performance in all 10 octaves. That would require a 4-way or 5-way acoustic suspension design with a very proportional and wide dispersion design. I can't think of such a critter. Not even the Nautilus really applies, though it's pretty close, losing points for the upper bass and upper treble mostly.

Other than tweeter size, what design attributes give a speaker "air" in the treble.

Still trying to narrow down a new amp. Seeing several posts about hum issues with Parasound amps.
Looking at NAD also.
May use my 1999 Sony ES as a preamp for awhile.
Any other amp recommendations?

damn,when I asked to elaborate I wasnt expecting a short novel : P But I really liked the info,its getting me psyched up for in a week or two : ) Thanks John for that bit of knowledge you shared with us !

I know some have been asking of real impressions of the 2's and AZ's and I thought I would share some comments. First of all I am an NHT dealer. I also sell Von Schweikert, Revel, Kef and a few other brands for custom install. My favorite speakers and personal reference are the Von Schweikerts. I will make my comparisons to them.

I just recently put the 2's in my demo room up front. I am not even using a center channel yet for HT. As a stereo speaker the 2's are a great value. They are sitting right where some Von Schweikert VR-2s and VR-1s were so I can make a critical comparison there. The little 2's require a good bit more toe in than some of the other speakers I have been using which require little or no toe in. The bass is the first thing I noticed or didn't notice. While they have decent bass, it is not quite that of a VR-1. Now it is tighter and more controlled with less bloom but I am not miscontruing this as less bass. They just do not get down as low as the VR-1. Imaging and soundstaging are wonderful though. They throw a very good image and the "effect of the hall" as it were is very good. What I mean here is they give a good reverberant effect when called upon. The sounds extend well beyond the boundaries of the speaker with a good feeling of sounds even being placed well down the side walls of my room. Midrange is good and a little bit recessed as compared to the VSAs. The treble is where I was really suprised. The high end on the speakers is not bright at all in my opinion. It is sweet and controlled. It has some air but does not have that last bit of detail. As compared to some Kef's I had recently, these speakers are almost laid back. They are pretty even with the VSAs on the highs. Overall I really like the speakers but the one area they cannot quite get there for me is overall resolution. They seem to be designed to cover any sins they have politely and not have anything jump out at you as a glaring weekness. The 2's are just lacking a bit of inner detail and resolution in much of what I am hearing as compared to the VSAs. Now for HT even without a center they were outstanding. I paired them up with my subs crossed at 80hz and they really shined. They really mated well and got some growl back in the bass. This came from the subs of course but I was really impressed at how well the blended and gave the impression they were one speaker. This was even better than the VSAs and was probably due to them being a bass reflex and the NHTs being sealed as I use sealed subs.

Overall I am very impressed. I am comparing a $600 retail speaker to a $1000 and $2750 retail speaker. Are they as good? For the most part, no. They are good competition for the VR-1s and just cannot do what the VR-2's can but they really shouldn't be able to. They will have applications I will use them ofer the VR-1's many times though. NHT certainly has a winner here with the new Classic line. Like everyone else, I am anxiously awaiting the 3's, 4's and the centers. I already have 3 pairs of 3's presold. I expect and hope that they are a good step beyond the 2's. If so, they will be (or close to) the giant killers everyone wants them to be.

John you sold us 3 months ago. We just need the speakers to bless us with there appearance.

awtryau89...since you are also a revel dealer how would you compare the Revel m12 to the NHT Classic Two?

awtryau89...since you are also a revel dealer how would you compare the Revel m12 to the NHT Classic Two?

I have not had the M-12 in yet. The ones I sold went out immediately to customers.

John you sold us 3 months ago. We just need the speakers to bless us with there appearance.

Sorry, just a reminder of why we are all waiting! ;)

BTW, I agree with Eric, the Twos are a bit on the forgiving side. I wouldn't call them "warm", but there is a slight softening in the upper midrange that is actually rather normal in a well-behaved 6"polypropylene cone. Add in the more limited dispersion of a 6" cone, and the Twos will be "polite", but still remarkably detailed for the price. It just isn't going to match the SOTA in this area. I've personally not heard an <$1000/pr speaker that I think is better than the Two, but there are a lot out there that I haven't heard. I'd certainly say most popular <$1000/pr high-end speakers can't touch them in most ways. Of course, most affordable speakers from most high-end companies are heavily, even purposely compromised.

Since the Three, for sure, has better midbass, better upper midrange, better upper treble, it will be interesting if the Twos will retain a nice following for their forgiving, smooth, enjoyable character, or whether they will be overshadowed by their notably more endowed bigger sibling. Much of that will depend on whether the smoothness I felt I heard at CES is really as smooth as I think.

I've asked a million questions on this thread since November and finally had about 30 minutes to listen to the Twos and the Von Schweikert VR1s.

SACD was Keb' Mo's "The Door" and preamp and amp were Parasound Halo with a 5 disc Sony SACD/DVD player.

I have done business with this audio shop since 1979 and they will not try to sell me what I don't want. They just let me listen and answer my concerns truthfully.

I have Mirage M3's so it took me a few minutes to get used to to the image being lower.

My first concern was that the Twos would be bright. They are not. Nothing about the treble is annoying.
They didn't really jump out at me as having more detail than the Mirages. I was at first a little disappointed. They are a little more lively sounding but I was not getting the resolution I was expecting.
The midrange had a slight dip. Keb's vocals were slightly recessed. And there was a bump in the midbass range. I'm guessing around 80Hz?
I played one bass heavy cut where I was expecting a little more depth than I got.
It seemed to fall off very quickly.
Nothing about this speaker was annoying, it had a nice presentation and would make a great stereo or HT speaker.

Secondly I listened to the VR1s.
I would describe them as being more accurate.
There was definitely more vocals. But I and the salesman feel that there is actually a slight bump in the midrange. I think overall they are flatter than the NHTs.
I got more of hint of deep bass with the VR1s. You could tell it was there more than with the NHTs. As if the NHTs had louder bass but the VR1s went deeper.
I would describe the Twos as being more forward than the VR1s and a little more lively sounding.
I don't know that I got anymore detail with the VR1s than I did with the Twos.
I'm not sure that I would consider the VR1s because I wouldn't be gaining anything by going to them.

The salesman has high hopes for the Three. We talked about how the mid tweeter should help the vocals and the larger cabinet should help the bass.
He said that he actually preferred the Aboslute Zero to the Two because it didn't have the midbass hump.
He did not feel that his shop would stock the Four right now due to the $1800 retail price.
He was concerned that NHT may have taken their price points too high with the new line.
Both the Two and Three cost $200 more per pair and the FOur is $800 more than the ST4 which they sold the hell out of.
He felt that the pricing should have been closer to $100 more.
But ultimately the performance will tell the tale.
I am still looking forward to hearing the Threes to see if the midtweet takes care of the recessed midrange I heard.
I do feel that I've put to rest any concerns about brightness or a hard sounding treble.

Just went to Von Schweikert's website and found out the VR1 is $995.
Which would explain it's performance, although it is not the speaker for me.
The website describes it as "lush" which is a good description.

So I guess the $600 Two did pretty well against a $1K speaker.
The VR1 was probably too laid back for me.

Who cares how much time he has....I've got till my Three's come in,so let the games begin !
I love being educated.Has anyone looked at the comparison made by an editor at Soundstage between the Revel M12's vs. the Energy RC-10?That guy gave the Energy more praise than I've ever seen anyone give to a speaker.Kinda makes me wanna do a A/B/C since the Revel dealer carries the Energy line as well.God I LOVE debates....errr education,errr arguements.
Couse,the bottom line is buy what your ears like.My ears like NHT,yours may prefer B&W.Just dont let the B&W stand for Bitching & Whining when you get them home.

I went looking for the comparison and could not find it in the article.

I have the M12s, but there aren't any NHT dealers near me. My coworker is interested in the Two's. But he isn't ready to buy yet, as he's still finishing his basement. We'll have to see where we can get a pair to audition and compare them to the M12s.

I have borrowed my father-in-laws original Sequerra Met 7s. They are a sealed design, and do lack some of the deeper bass the M12 puts out. However, they bring out a little extra detail and resolution that the M12 doesn't have. One song in particular of Lyle Lovett's, Joshua Judges Ruth album, the probably overused song 'North Dakota', you can hear more the individual beads in the opening. You can also hear more detailed taps on the cymbal, and you can pick out spots where you hear him take a breath before singing. The Revel is more laid back in detail in these spots. The cymbal while still sounding very good doesn't quite have the shimmer/decay detail of the Met 7. I also had a harder time picking up on the breaths with the M12s.

(A note on my current placement, which may or may not be affecting the speakers ability. My M12s sit in an open front media center/bookshelf with the front of the speaker pulled out just past the front edge of the shelf. There is about 10 inches behind the speaker, 6 inches on each side and 5 inches above the speaker of open air space. While, this may boost the low-end output a little, I'm not sure if this would contribute to any lack of detail I heard compared to the Met 7. Also the Met 7 was placed in the exact same spot as the M12 when we were comparing them.)

I don't think I'd call the M12s lacking next to the Met 7s, as the M12s still sound very good for the money and I do enjoy them. But these were things that myself and a buddy picked up on while listening to them. Also I must take into account the Met 7s sold for nearly double the M12s price 20 years ago. I'd be interested to do a more thorough comparison at home, between some of the speakers that fall in this same price range. When I get some Classic Two's (unless my co-worker decides to step up to the Three's) to compare to the M12s, I'll post my comparisons.

(Historical side note)
This song is one that Dave Wilson had on his demo CD he used for critical listening back in 98, when he took my father-in-law and myself on a tour. He pointed out the various spots to listen for. They knew each other years back when they both lived in California. Back in the mid-eighties, when he couldn't afford a set of Wilson's WATTs, he asked Dave what speaker the best speaker around $1000 would be and Dave recommended the Met 7s. So goes the story from my father-in-law.

I'm not sure I understand. They think $1800 for the Four is *too much*?!? Holy crap. Do they sell anything over $1000? The ST4 and Four are about as much alike as a Golf is like an Audi S4. Dealers are strange. The ST4 will compete reasonably with most any <$2000/pr towers. But the Fours? Yikes. I'd put them up against most anything under $10K and a lot of $20K speakers. It sounds like they're classifying NHT as a "mass-market" speaker, which would be a mistake. I assume they don't carry Xd?

Alimental,
$100 more for the smaller speakers and $400 more for the Fours. So around $1400.
He was just talking about a price point, not making any comment on value or performance.
Not carrying the Fours is not because he doesn't think they will sell, but probably more of a
financial decision of having so many more expensive speakers on the floor.
He is a small dealer and keeps ML Summits on the floor + most of the ML line.
They will probably carry the Fours later. I am sure if I asked him he would order a pair for inventory knowing that I would probably buy them once I got them in my house.

Stoli, we do have a pair of Twos traveling across the country in search of its next pitstop. Only real proviso is that you have to be willing to pay to ship them on to the next person.

b4z, I guess with Xd being so formidable, I gave up on all other high-end speakers. NHT has officially gone from my entry level speaker to our high-end speaker with PSB filling in for the affordable stuff. I used to carry $10K-$25K speakers. Xd pretty well made them all obsolete. Of course, they don't work as well for people who like to sell expensive amps and cables.

Okay Alimentall, what is the latest on the timing of the 4?

Thanks,

Winovin

The fallback position for those who don't sell more expensive products, is that you don't need more expensive products, or that they're no better. In some cases, I'm sure this is true, and in others, not. Either way, I don't need a salesman telling me that, because I can listen for myself and make that determination.

stoli147 heres the link....look where it says SOUND and then Comparison.He used the energy rc-10 to compare with the revel m12

http://www.soundstageav.com/onhifi.html

Okay Alimentall, what is the latest on the timing of the 4?


My info says last week of March at best, but likely drifting into early April.

The fallback position for those who don't sell more expensive products, is that you don't need more expensive products, or that they're no better. In some cases, I'm sure this is true, and in others, not. Either way, I don't need a salesman telling me that, because I can listen for myself and make that determination.

I didn't tell you what you will like. I simply said that the Xd made my $15K and $21K speakers sound "challenged", IMO, by comparison and so there's no point for me in carrying them. There are speakers that others will *prefer* to Xds or the Three/Four or whatever. It's called personal taste. However, on a technical, measurable level, Xd is absolutely SOTA and embarrassing to most expensive speakers. I mean, you may prefer a speaker that costs 10 times as much, is +/-10dB and has very unusual dispersion and that is perfectly fine. But I've got to go with the numbers and sell what *I* think represents the best for *most* people. I can't afford to sell a $20K speaker that isn't at least equal to Xd because it will just sit there waiting for the perfect match in a customer. I haven't found a speaker that I feel sufficiently equals Xd to make it worth selling as the alternative. It may be out there, but I haven't heard it. If you like, I could order you $60K/pr speakers. I just can't promise you'd like them any more than you'd like anything else. But I'm not a high-end guy. I love performance. Most of high-end is simply full of crap. I want beef. Real improvements, not marketing crap. When a company makes a product that is *technically* better, I'm drawn to it more than the ones that are designed by the marketing staff. The engineers at NHT are just that. REAL engineers. They're not a pharmaceutical guy or a furniture maker that got a wilde idea. Those are speaker designers. NHT is designed by actual engineers and always have been. That appeals to me, but not to everyone. They make transducers, not musical instruments. The real musical instruments are the ones in the recording.

My whole "pitch" for the Xd, the Three and the Four is not that *anyone* will like them. My pitch is that they are technically superb, measurably superb and that they have attributes that other speakers don't have. Even extremely expensive ones. They are a better transducer, but that doesn't necessarily make them a better "speaker" for everyone. In fact, it doesn't mean *you* will like them at all. But it probably means that a lot of people will. A whole lot. Describing a speaker based on its attributes is like describing a woman's physical features. In either case, the beauty is in the eye/ear of the beholder.

stoli147 heres the link....look where it says SOUND and then Comparison.He used the energy rc-10 to compare with the revel m12

http://www.soundstageav.com/onhifi.html

Hey thanks for the link. Interesting to compare my impressions with what he wrote.

The highs are the one place where I think they could be slightly improved to something more similar to the RC-10 perhaps. Appearance aside that is, as costs have to be cut somewhere on a budget bookshelf, and personally I'd rather the looks get sacrificed some before the sound. It will be interesting to compare them to the Two's when my friend gets closer to auditioning stuff.

Seems as I am one of the remaining few that have patience enough to wait,but *drifting* into April is wearing on even my patience.I guess the real engineers should replace the unreal marketing genius that said these speakers would be in showrooms by the middle of February-early March.I guess 3 weeks is even out of the question.However I am going to do my best to remain calm and hope these speakers come soon,I just hope for NHT's sake they are everything they say they are.If not,I will certainly let them(not Alimentall....It's not his fault)know how I feel about all this.Another thing,they say they are(now past tense) debuting the Threes and Fours over in the UK at a sound&vision show.I hope to hell they arent distibuting them over there first while us Americans sit on the backburner.Especially since NHT is an American company.I would really feel betrayed if this is happening.John,whats your take on this thought about the show and distibuting them over there first?

:confused:

Don't get me started Charlie, I've been complaining about some of these issues for what seems like an eternity, so much so that I always feel like I'm *this* close to getting dropped as a dealer at any given time. However, I truly love the product and would rather sell hot dogs on the corner than be without it, so I can't do much but complain. But I do complain. Sometimes it's like being in a really bad marriage and I'm trying to convince them to go to "counseling". It's like nothing but arguing, but the sex is incredible. Trust me, if it weren't for the brilliance of the product or if there were *anyone* that I thought was building product this good................But I wouldn't even give up NHT for Revel or Thiel or Joseph Audio, let alone B&W or Paradigm or anything else.

I know how over-zealous marketing can be sometimes. I projected a date I could hit for coming out with a new product. They showed the prototype at a trade show and got some good feedback on a few items to change. I projected my new date, which they didn't like at all and scrambled to bring in by two months. In the scrambling, the ball was dropped a few times. In the end we came out with the product two days before my projected date they rejected. Some things just take time.

Especially when you get into figuring out what happened when measurements just don't jive with your engineering numbers. Or when you get hung up in compliance testing (Electro-Magnetic Interference and Safety/Static testing). I can think of a few other things I'd rather do than that.

I think they believe if they set a date, that everything will revolve around it and it will just "happen". Anyway, I've been pushing for a set policy of "no announcements until product is being built or loaded into a ship". We'll see........

Alimental,

Dealing with NHT can't be anywhere near as bad as dealing with Sony.
One of the lines my dealer carried since the '60s or '70s was Sony.
They increased their minimum to $50K . The rep had been a complete jerk for years and made it clear he didn't want to bother with them.
They weren't upset when Sony decided they didn't want them as a dealer anymore.
Plus Sony's margins aren't as high as the others.

Fortunately, while "jerk" reps are the norm in this industry, my NHT rep is the best rep I've got. Very professional and helpful. Most reps out here are completely useless when they're not trying to screw you over, they're just not paying attention to you. I had actually thought about picking up Revel to augment NHT and the guy didn't even bother to show up for the appointment, even though we sell hundreds of $thousands in speakers every year. And the Paradigm/B&K/Anthem rep, wow, what a deceitful backstabbing SOB that guy is. I wouldn't carry anything he reps for money.

I think once we get beyond this introduction of product, it will be smooth sailing. NHT's reach sometimes exceeds its grasp, but they eventually work it out. They aren't arrogant like many companies, but they sure are ambitious! I would just prefer a little less ambition at times.

...But I wouldn't even give up NHT for Revel or Thiel or Joseph Audio, let alone B&W or Paradigm or anything else.

Not to derail the thread, but just out of curiosity, have you ever had an occasion to compare NHT to say, a Triangle Titus 202 or Triangle Comete 202?

By the way I'm not looking to start a flame or trying to say that "my" brand of speaker is better. I just don't see a lot of comparison between the brands you mentioned, including NHT, and a speaker that I believe offers some of the most outstanding midrange sound reproduction, than any comparable speaker I have heard. By the way, I am really looking forward to listening to those new NHT models when they come out as I am always open minded and love to buy audio gear just for the fun of it.

Tom

Any word on whether the 2c is out yet? I am looking to use it as a center for my Energy Veritas 2.3s (love the speaker, hate the size and midrange behaviour of the their center speaker)

Not to derail the thread, but just out of curiosity, have you ever had an occasion to compare NHT to say, a Triangle Titus 202 or Triangle Comete 202?


Tom,

I haven't, but I will endeavor to do a LOT of comparison listening to stuff like this. No one sells these here, but I do know people that own them or have owned them. The complaint I hear about Triangles is the treble being too bright/beamy. But I've never heard them. A lot of the French stuff seems to be heavy on the treble. Anyway, I suspect there will be a lot of customers comparing their current speakers to the Threes over the next 8 weeks or more and I'll let you know the good and bad of it.

The 2C supposedly has begun to ship in small quantities and should be on the way to dealers now.

Tom,

I haven't, but I will endeavor to do a LOT of comparison listening to stuff like this. No one sells these here, but I do know people that own them or have owned them. The complaint I hear about Triangles is the treble being too bright/beamy. But I've never heard them. A lot of the French stuff seems to be heavy on the treble. Anyway, I suspect there will be a lot of customers comparing their current speakers to the Threes over the next 8 weeks or more and I'll let you know the good and bad of it.

Thanks for the reply. I heard that knock as well, but it proved unfounded once I actually heard the speakers. A link to a review on the older models.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/titus202_e.html

I'm looking forward to hearing the new NHT line. Heck maybe I'll change over just for the hell of it. Wouldn't be the first time. That's one of the beauties of this hobby. You can change anytime you want just for the fun of it and as long as you stay with quality manufacturers, you can't lose. It really gives an opportunity to listen to different sounds for an extended period of time. Speaker companies and component companies love me as I've changed my speakers and hardware at least 4 times over the last 6 years. And not for any reason other than just to change. I'll also say (and take heat) that except for subtle changes, it really didn't matter much if I had a Yamaha receiver, a B&K pre/pro with a Sherbourn amp, a B&K AVR receiver or my now Denon 3806, I loved them all. I did get bigger changes when I moved between Infinity RS speakers, Infinity Overture speakers, Dunlavy speakers, Triangle speakers, etc. But frankly I loved all of them as well. I'd really like to give NHT a try. :)

Tom

Alimentall,
Does this mean that the Three's are shipping as well?Surely to God They were on the same ship as the others.

I was told on Jan 13th by NHT that the container for the 3's was on the water and NHT would receive them the first week in February and would ship to dealers immediately after that. Apparently that ship sunk.

The 4's are still a glimmer in daddy's eyes I'm quessing...

Threes should be shipping, but just in small, air-freighted quantities. The actual ship should be on the way with delivery around the end of the month for enough to fill all the back orders.

First of all I am an NHT dealer.

Well, I guess that now explains why you've been calling to ask massive amounts of questions for the last, what, 5 or 6 years (more?) without buying anything, eh?

Threes should be shipping, but just in small, air-freighted quantities. The actual ship should be on the way with delivery around the end of the month for enough to fill all the back orders.

So what I gather from that is *enough* to let dealers demo them and tease the customers?....LoL....I hope mine come soon so I can post all over this and audioasylums' boards about how damn good they are!!!! Maybe help out your sales a bit :)

PS.
I'm still #2 or #3 in line right ??? ;)

I am going to tell you guys, these 2's are really growing on me. The things I thought were weaknesses are really beginning to make them awesome all around performers. I think 5 of these in a 5.1 system with a good sub(s) would be an unbelieveable package.

Holy S4!T....Now we got a good one...2 NHT dealers facing off.....At least its some good entertainment while I await the arrival of my Three's !!!

At least its some good entertainment while I await the arrival of my Three's !!!

Don't hold your breath... Remember to relax as the months continue drag on... Hell it may be time to roll out the new line or begin talking about it so that when September rolls around NHT will go to press with no product in hand and have a down payment on their booth at CES...

Holy S4!T....Now we got a good one...2 NHT dealers facing off.....At least its some good entertainment while I await the arrival of my Three's !!!

Nah, not really. I'm just giving him crap. I know Eric pretty well, actually, and know him by voice when I pick up the phone. I'm just assuming that all of our many conversations ended up having him want to become a dealer and start selling it rather than simply owning it. He just neglected to *tell* me that.

Oh, Coues, you're just bitter because someone convinced you to buy over-priced mass-market speakers :)

I would bet the delay has something to do with the Vinci labs takeover.

Anytime a new owner comes on board there is bound to be some changes and some delays. Maybe the old concept was not going to make enough money for the new owners? Maybe the old concept was not going to sound good enough for the new owners? Maybe it is simple as logistics? Who knows, but I bet the delay has to do with the merger/takeover.

Actually, from what I gather, Vinci Labs came in and saved the day and gave NHT a defib. I think Rockford, because of it's sorry state of affairs, wasn't giving NHT the money it needed to launch all these ambitious products. I also think there were issues getting the dome array built, which is why *all* of the products with that feature are late, while the others arrived almost on time. It's not directly NHT's fault, but they coulda, shoulda been more cautious in their announcements and shipping dates.

seems as though another editor of a mag likes the Xd....

http://www.soundstage.com/letters.shtml

I just received NHT’s Xd system and set it up. The Xd appears to be pushing the boundaries of what’s possible today with two-way designs….Doug Schneider

Oh, Coues, you're just bitter because someone convinced you to buy over-priced mass-market speakers :)

Not at all... How can I be bitter and over what? NHT has yet to deliver and I am sure has lost many clients over this fiasco that they have created. Furthermore nobody has convinced me to purchase speakers nor have I moved into any direction to purchase speakers…

Now the last time I was at NHT website it appears to me that their line of speakers are geared for the mass market client as well, BUT you need to have a product in hand to flood the market and the only thing NHT is doing is turning their market against them with delay after delay after delay…

I was all set to purchase their entire classic line with the exception of their SUB as it just does not have the power I was after. I thought of using a SVS PB12 Ultra in black piano finish would match up with the piano finish on the classic very nicely.

Alimentall, you have also added to the problem by posting in this forum with the updates on delivery dates only to watch the dates come and go. You would have been better off to have said nothing... It's very obvious your proud of this line of speakers and you appear to know what your talking about, but...

http://www.svsound.com/products/subs/pb12ultra2/front-piano-lg.jpg

http://www.svsound.com/products/subs/pb12ultra2/angle_lg.jpg

Coues, I don't disagree but negatively doesn't change anything. It is what it is. 99% of the population has no idea what a Classic Three is. It's the internet gang that knows. My customers just started getting the flyer on it this week. So, if they come in and say "do you have it?" I'll say "a few weeks", but at least it will be the first time they heard it. I know the Threes are now shipping in small quantities.

I'm still trying to figure out exaclty what "shipping in small quantities" means... :confused:

Does it mean that those of us who ordered at the beginning of the year will be getting them soon?
Or does it mean we(the consumers who already paid)will be waiting on this ship to finally come in while all the dealers snag up a pair or 2 for themselves to setup and tease *potential* buyers with? :(

Not at all... How can I be bitter and over what? NHT has yet to deliver and I am sure has lost many clients over this fiasco that they have created. Furthermore nobody has convinced me to purchase speakers nor have I moved into any direction to purchase speakers…

Now the last time I was at NHT website it appears to me that their line of speakers are geared for the mass market client as well, BUT you need to have a product in hand to flood the market and the only thing NHT is doing is turning their market against them with delay after delay after delay…

I was all set to purchase their entire classic line with the exception of their SUB as it just does not have the power I was after. I thought of using a SVS PB12 Ultra in black piano finish would match up with the piano finish on the classic very nicely.

Alimentall, you have also added to the problem by posting in this forum with the updates on delivery dates only to watch the dates come and go. You would have been better off to have said nothing... It's very obvious your proud of this line of speakers and you appear to know what your talking about, but...

http://www.svsound.com/products/subs/pb12ultra2/front-piano-lg.jpg

http://www.svsound.com/products/subs/pb12ultra2/angle_lg.jpg


This is what I was thinking about also to match the Classics but I wanted a pair of 4's for left and right and 3 for the rears 3c center.
Allen

Threes are shipping! OMG! Best news I have heard in a while. So whens the four shipping :p

I have been searching for a while to find speakers to replace my Meadowlark but so far have not really heard any better for the price I am willing to pay. Problem so far is that speakers that do well for Stereo just seem to lack that last bit of detail in HT and those that do well in HT is just too detailed in Stereo :P Guess there might just not be a way to do well in both short of playing with contour or EQ and such.

These are the speakers I have heard and some comments on what I feel about them. Note that I do seem to have a dislike for metal tweeters and most I have heard are defintely detailed but I do feel my ears hurting the next day if I do a long listening session to them.

B&W 600 series - Splashy and a little disjointed.

B&W 700 series - Really liked the sound of them Detailed and yet not harsh. Mids could just be alittle better. Was almost ready to pull the gun on the 705 as they seem to do well for both HT/Stereo which is rare. Will have to relisten after hearing the others I am looking forward to hear.

KEF Q7s - A little lean in the mids on stereo but pretty detailed and not harsh. They somehow do fall down on HT but I believe it could be due to the fact the dealer could only use a 85 watts reciever to drive them for me. At the volumes I listen to they just could not keep up and the soundstage just collaspe and became very harsh sounding.

NHT Twos - Mids too lean and defintely too polite a speaker good imaging and soundstaging though. Looking forward to hearing the Threes and fours. I am going to listen to the M5/T5 as my dealer has one piece left that he is willing to let go at a very good price.

Thiels 1.6 - 4 years back I was hoping to get them but they were just over what I was willing to pay for. 4 years later after a night listening(just last night) at a friends place who happens to use the same processor as me was enlightening. I love them for Music and they did surprising well for HT. Detailed yet not harsh. Mids to die for and oh, they just did something right about horn instruments like trumpets, sax etc. They just seem to produce that initial dynamics that horn speakers produce but without compromising on the timbre. Voices are smooth as silk and cymbals are detailed yet not splashy :p At the current price it is going at effectively the same as the 705 for me I have this right at the top of my list.

Speakers I am hoping to listen before making my decisions are NHT threes and fours, M&K 750 series (Lightly to be too bright for me unless I really damp the whole place down), JM Lab, Elacs 207.2 & the next range up for KEF & Maybe the Ascend if I can find it somewhere. GR Research seems interesting but that would mean buying blind.

Oliver

I've been watching this thread for months and I think is time to chime in.
I have been a long time fan of NHT speakers and have owned many models over the years.
When I heard of the new classic line I must say I was very intrigued. The Super Audio line are in my
opinion, fantastic products. I have owned the SB3 and the SB2. To my ears the SB2s worked much better in my setup.
I still owned the SB2s and probably will for a long time to come.
Unfortunately I believed NHT when they projected that the new Classic Three would be available in October '05, so in September,
I sold off my Quad 12Ls and plunked down my down payment on a pair of threes.
That was on October 11, 2005. Guess what...I am still waiting. E-mails to NHT go unanswered. The NHT web site is useless in providing any useful information.
My dealer can't even get an honest answer from NHT. I say honest. He does get ship dates from NHT that come and go.
He feels so bad that he has offered me my deposit back an more than one occasion. I have been patient with NHT and tried my best to
understand their problems with bringing this product to market, but I must say my patience is running out. I feel they have made fools out of all of us.
The fact they won't post updates on the web page shows a arrogance toward their most loyal dealers and customers. Some fence mending is definitely needed on the part of
NHT. I for one am not going to wait another 5 months. Just my 2¢.

I will be darned curious to do a shootout with the 3's, but from what I'm hearing about the two's, they may be a little polite for my tastes. When a group of us did a shootout (level matched, RTA, switcher etc.) with the Onix Ref 1's, ACI Sapphire XL's, Quad 12L Actives, 12L consumer, and Von Schweikert LCR-15's (which I owned), I was immediately told to sell my Vons...which I couldn't have agreed with more. The Vons' midrange was just waaaay too recessed for our ears and it showed on the RTA. I got rid of 'em on Audiogon two days later. Hearing that the 2's might have less detail and a more recessed midrange than the Vons doesn't bode well for the 3's, but I'm gonna withhold judgement until we can do a real listening session.

As for now, I absolutely love my Quad 12L Actives and lean favorably toward powered pro monitors...not the cheapies, but the good ones.

Well, I guess that now explains why you've been calling to ask massive amounts of questions for the last, what, 5 or 6 years (more?) without buying anything, eh?


Wow, this one went right over my head and I missed it. John, I guess I will have to disguise my voice better next time. :D Seriuosly though, I have not called you for 2-3 years until a few weeks ago when I was trying to decide if I wanted to pick up the line. I have only been in business a little over a year now. I figured no better source of info except from the master himself. A little fishing can't hurt.

Wow, this one went right over my head and I missed it. John, I guess I will have to disguise my voice better next time. :D Seriuosly though, I have not called you for 2-3 years until a few weeks ago when I was trying to decide if I wanted to pick up the line. I have only been in business a little over a year now. I figured no better source of info except from the master himself. A little fishing can't hurt.

I guess those newsletters are more effective than I thought ;)

I will be darned curious to do a shootout with the 3's, but from what I'm hearing about the two's, they may be a little polite for my tastes.

I wouldn't worry about it. Think of this, polypropylene naturally absorbs some upper midrange detail and a 6" won't have very wide dispersion in the upper mids. The Threes will have both notably more resolution *and* better power response, aka dispersion in the upper midrange. That means you can have a speaker that is both engaging, with lots of "presence", yet still be easy on the ears so you can listen at high volumes and/or all day long. Well, you'll have to hear them to understand. Think Thiel, but with more fleshed out lower midrange/upper bass for a more balanced, smooth sound.

I too like a few others, am waiting for my Three's, but decided to get an SVS subwoofer. I got the 16-46 PC-Plus. The NHT subs look good, and sound good, but I wanted something really siesmic and the NHT's just do not go low enough. Some DVD's and even classical music can go sub-20hz. Spending the kind of money I will be spending on my system, I do not want to miss anything. I understand that percentage wise there is not much below 25hz and not very often, BUT it is there. If only NHT made a sub that went deeper.

It's not how low you go, it's how well you go low ;)

I live in Hong Kong, close to the manufacturing source, China, and probably the place of departure for any elusive ship; there is no sight or sound of the Threes or Fours. The ship may just be that, elusive...We've had the twos and zeros for awhile. I've listened and they seem to work for me, I'm not too demanding or discerning, but they sound nice - maybe more than nice - very nice - exceptionally nice...

Am thinking to put the zeros in back with the threes up front - this should work I imagine; We don't get much living space in HK - something like 10ft x 20ft living / dining area. Fairly small, hence the choices with the threes and zeros. Does this make sense? And, possibly the 2C in the centre? Or not needed?

If these combos work, I can get the zeros and wait a couple more months for that elusive ship to emege from the myst.

Thoughts...?

Not too many go low as well as, forget about better than, SVS.

Listened to the Two's yesterday in an, I'll admit, less than ideal demo. Can't say I was horribly impressed. Eh, I'll wait for the Three's to come out and see if I can't get a better demo at another dealer. I'm not willing to fault the speakers at this point. Even great speakers can sound horrible poorly set up.

So far everybody,(including me) who has listened to the Twos has commented on the recessed midrange or felt the demo who not up to snuff.

What could NHT have done to help with this?

I am still looking forward to the Threes since I feel the midtweet will help with this.

In regards to the subs, if I go that route I may go with a Martin Logan since some have said they are more articulate.

Sean the SVS might go deeper, but, IMO, they don't have a subwoofer as accurate, well built or with as much precision as the U1 or XdS. But, of course you give up some bass extension for the precision and transient response of acoustic suspension. I traded in one of the tube subs and it was "okay". But then, that's just my opinion. Most subwoofers don't sound good in a dealer show room because of all the other speakers. Put them in a home, however, and most every sub sounds notably better. Nice advantage for a sub that can only be demoed that way!

As far as "recessed", I'd settle for "not forward". Virtually every speaker I've heard these days is "midrange forward". This makes the NHTs often sound "recessed" by comparison, but what really is recessed is the sound of the speaker itself. The music is still right where it should be. B&Ws, Paradigms, JMlabs, heck, most anything European or Canadian, are all midrange forward sounding speakers. That can make them sound more detailed, but when you listen to the individual instruments, they often are blurred, veiled and the speaker often has a "shouty sound that makes it sound like the midrange is in a horn. I don't suspect that the Threes are notably more forward, only more detailed and more spacious sounding, but they didn't have them set up to A/B so I can't tell for sure. Maybe a tad brighter. The customer for the Two is going to be looking for a speaker that is more forgiving and pleasant. The customer for the Three is looking for maximum detail. I don't think NHT would want to "help" this. I personally felt the AZ was kind of bright at first, but compared to everything else it's been compared to, it's smooth as butter and a lot more refined.

Well, I'm not going to argue sub preferences with you, as that is not the point of this thread, or even this section of the forum, but I will say that I've listened to lots and lots and lots of subs (Paradigm, Velodyne, Martin Logan, Mirage, Aerial, REL, Def Tech, Monitor Audio, M&K, B&W, Sunfire, etc.), both in stores and people's homes, and while I have heard subs that are better than the initial run of SVS cylinders (one of which I have), their subs have continued to improve over the years and now even the PB12-ISD, which I recommended for a friend is well ahead of my cylinder and most everything else I've heard in accuracy, extension and output. Plus with their pricing structure, you can get a sub with the Ultra driver in it for what you pay for a decent sub a retail. I guess it really boils down to whether you like the sound of ported subs (and speakers) or not. As I said, I'm not going to argue preferences with you, that would be pointless. I'm just letting you know that my opinion was not formed in a vaccuum as are those of some other ID customers.

And if you're in the DC area and looking to audition the new NHT's, the Two's are on display at Pro Video in Rockville (and maybe the DC store as well, I didn't check), but their setup is far from ideal. Soundworks in Kensington tells me they expect to get the Three's in sometime next week, and they have much nicer listening rooms with acoustic treatments that should be able to give you a fair idea of what the speakers can really do. And they've also got lots of other high end speakers there for you to compare the Three's to if you want. Totem, Aerial, Energy Veritas, Vandersteen, Wilson, Martin Logan, etc.

I'm just saying that NHT's subwoofer philosophy has and probably always will be that getting the frequencies you choose to do the best they can be is more important than a few extra Hz. Besides, most subwoofers actually are so inaccurate that ascribing a "+/-X dB" figure is essentially impossible. How do you describe a bell curve as a flat line? :) In any case, not pointing fingers at any particular company, just saying that, for NHT, they build "sports car" type subs rather than "SUV" type subs. And they know they'll lose some sales some times. I have a used Dayton Titan in here and it is very powerful, but it sounds boomy, heavy, slow compared to my NHT Ten.

Well, I'm not going to argue sub preferences with you, as that is not the point of this thread, or even this section of the forum, but I will say that I've listened to lots and lots and lots of subs (Paradigm, Velodyne, Martin Logan, Mirage, Aerial, REL, Def Tech, Monitor Audio, M&K, B&W, Sunfire, etc.), both in stores and people's homes, and while I have heard subs that are better than the initial run of SVS cylinders (one of which I have), their subs have continued to improve over the years and now even the PB12-ISD, which I recommended for a friend is well ahead of my cylinder and most everything else I've heard in accuracy, extension and output.

I just took delivery of the SVS PB12-ISD and the SUB rocks!!! I was just in the finishing stages of getting it as well as the mains, center, rears in place when a friend drop by with Saving Private Ryan in hand. The opening screen was outstanding. Although he or his wife did not stay long as they were afraid to stay in my home long as I have been sick the last 10 days that turned into Whooping Cough.

Although I bought the SVS 5.1 theater system as I am waiting for the three's to arrive. For the money you can't beat this system for someone on a budget. This system will hold me over until the NHT arrive then will be given to my 15 year-old son, but once the theater is built NHT three's will be in 6 locations within the theater with the 3C as the center channel, and a SVS Ultra SUB to handle the bass.

Sean the SVS might go deeper, but, IMO, they don't have a subwoofer as accurate, well built or with as much precision as the U1 or XdS. But, of course you give up some bass extension for the precision and transient response of acoustic suspension.

Ok, now that is just BLIND devotion to NHT. Check out Ed Mullen's reviews of the SVS PSB-12 and the Onix ULF-12 on the Secrets site. For less money, the ported PSB-12 has almost a FULL OCTAVE lower extension, plays several dB louder below 30 Hz, has LESS group delay, and LESS ringing at resonance (which is also lower in frequency). Be sure to check out the frequency response of the PSB-12 in 16 Hz tune. I doubt many subs made measure flatter. I'm not an SVS groupie like so many here, but they have designed a hell of a sub that acts like an acoustic suspension sub (or better!) for almost the entire passband.

I auditioned an NHT Sub 10 in my own home for two days with a Paradigm PW-2200 (same price), and an M&K MX-350 (almost double the price). The Sub 10 was "punchy" but was solidly outclassed in output and extension, and did not blend or sound more musical than either of the other two subs.

I think NHT makes good speakers and I would really love to audition the Fours. But their subs just are not equal to much of the competition.

NHT doesn't make a "Sub 10". As someone who used to work for an M&K/Paradigm dealer, sorry. I guess I just have different tastes. I trade in M&Ks, Paradigms, SVS and Hsu subs for NHTs on a pretty regular basis. I'm not saying NHT is "better", just competitive in their own way. They don't go for max output or lowest -3dB. A Miata isn't a pickup isn't an SUV. Each has their admirers. I mean, they couldn't be that bad given the summary:

The NHT SW12 is exceedingly stylish and handsome, with excellent construction and immaculate fit and finish. The innovative boundary EQ feature will help users fine tune the low end response for various boundary loading and room placement options.

This subwoofer has a flat frequency response, legitimate in-room extension to 22 Hz - 23 Hz, and better than average distortion-limited output, which definitely has a positive impact on pitch, definition, and clarity in the lowest octave. These qualities help the SW12 to perform well on both music and HT applications, with occasional port chuffing at loud playback levels being my only reservation. At more moderate playback levels, the SW12 impresses across the board and without qualification.

The NHT SW12 definitely makes my recommended list, and anyone shopping for a sub in the $700 range should give it a hard look.

In any case, people should choose whatever suits their taste.

NHT doesn't make a "Sub 10".

Maybe it was called the Sub Two? It had a 10" driver and sold for ~$800, same as the PW-2200 at the time.


As someone who used to work for an M&K/Paradigm dealer, sorry. I guess I just have different tastes. I trade in M&Ks, Paradigms, SVS and Hsu subs for NHTs on a pretty regular basis.

I find that pretty hard to believe....especially given my auditioning experiences.

I'm not saying NHT is "better", just competitive in their own way. They don't go for max output or lowest -3dB.

You stated above that "the SVS might go deeper, but, IMO, they don't have a subwoofer as accurate, well built or with as much precision as the U1 or XdS. But, of course you give up some bass extension for the precision and transient response of acoustic suspension."

Clearly, you are saying that the SVS is not as accurate, well built, or has as much precision (as low a group delay and shorter ringing?). I linked to a well-regarded sealed sub with a larger enclosure than any NHT sub and it was reviewed inferior to the cheaper SVS in every category. Obviously, it's not one of the NHT subs, so a little bit of the apple to oranges, but I couldn't quickly find any GP measurements of any of the NHT sealed subs. And the link you provided was for a VENTED NHT sub!


In any case, people should choose whatever suits their taste.

I coiuldn't agree more. If people want to pay more for less output, extension, and no better sound on music, it's a free country! :D


PS - If NHT would actually ship some of these damn things, we could end this off-topicness! poke, poke In all seriousness though, I will definitely make the trip to an NHT dealer once the Fours come out.

I trade in M&Ks, Paradigms, SVS and Hsu subs for NHTs on a pretty regular basis.

Apparently, from the posts, every other decent brand of speakers as well. You seem to do more trade-in buisness than anyone I've ever met, congratulations.

Maybe it was called the Sub Two? It had a 10" driver and sold for ~$800, same as the PW-2200 at the time.

No, the SubTwo has dual 10" woofers. SubOne maybe? Replaced by the SubOnei, which was replaced by the SW12, which was replaced by the Twelve.

I find that pretty hard to believe....especially given my auditioning experiences.

Sorry. Right now, I've been a bit picked over, but I have a Dayton Titan, a Velodyne F1200, and AudioPro something or other, and just sold two used Genesis subs (G900 replaced by XdW and G928 replaced by U1) a DefTech and a few others. Trade-ins are a normal part of my life. I've also traded in two Hsus, an SVS tube something or other (16-46?) and more than a few M&Ks. I have a customer with an MX-350 right now that is too boomy in his room, so he's going to try the SW12 or U1. Of course, the main problem is that his speakers aren't cutting it.

Clearly, you are saying that the SVS is not as accurate, well built, or has as much precision (as low a group delay and shorter ringing?). I linked to a well-regarded sealed sub with a larger enclosure than any NHT sub and it was reviewed inferior to the cheaper SVS in every category. Obviously, it's not one of the NHT subs, so a little bit of the apple to oranges, but I couldn't quickly find any GP measurements of any of the NHT sealed subs. And the link you provided was for a VENTED NHT sub!

I know! It's several rungs down from the best they make. The U1, U2 and XdW are all sealed. I am not a fan of ported subs. I find them to be too slow with relatively poor transient response. As good as my little Ten is for a ported sub, it's being replaced by a U1. In any case, I guess I just listen for different things than you do. If you want to buy a sub off of specs, go for it, but measurements don't tell everything because the measurements are incomplete.

I coiuldn't agree more. If people want to pay more for less output, extension, and no better sound on music, it's a free country! :D

I disagree on the "no better sound on music" part, but that's just my ears.

PS - If NHT would actually ship some of these damn things, we could end this off-topicness! poke, poke In all seriousness though, I will definitely make the trip to an NHT dealer once the Fours come out.

No shite. In any case, not everyone is looking for the same thing in a subwoofer, that's why NHT is not only competitive, they're very popular and sell quite well and people really like them and keep them and come back to tell me how much of an improvement they are. I'm not saying they're better, but I sure don't have a problem selling them or trading in others for them.

Apparently, from the posts, every other decent brand of speakers as well. You seem to do more trade-in buisness than anyone I've ever met, congratulations.

Thank you, it's fun. I just traded in a full Legacy Focus setup for the Three/Twelve setup. I just sold it on line for enough that he can upgrade his speakers *and* his electronics. Can't wait for them to go out this morning though, they're like small telephone booths. Most companies avoid trade-ins. I thrive on it, almost like a sport. As in "I wonder what the most expensive speakers I can get traded in for these".

I did get a 2C in yesterday! Though, I'd only ordered one, so I don't know what that means. I ordered 20 or more of the 3C, so if I get even 5 of them later this week, that will be more notable.

didnt NHT ship all the Three's,2c's,3c's,4's in the same container and at the same time?For everyones sake I hope so,cuz even the most *loyal* NHT fans are ready to *jump ship* on them.

Well, these didn't come on a ship, they came air freight, I believe. So, as soon as they are built, they fly some over to appease everyone as best they can and then the bulk arrives via ship.

Well I ordered all my NHT Classics from J&R Music world... I got the AZ's as soon as I ordered them and the 3's and 2C were pre order. Now the 2C shows available on their site as of 12:30 PST. Note: Their website shows full list if you order online, if you call, the pricing is below list by a good amount. Hopefully my 2C is being packed up and put on the brown truck today.

[QUOTE=Alimentall]Sean the SVS might go deeper, but, IMO, they don't have a subwoofer as accurate, well built or with as much precision as the U1 or XdS. But, of course you give up some bass extension for the precision and transient response of acoustic suspension. QUOTE]

Alimentall, unless the info on the NHT website is incorrect, the woofer on the 4 is bass reflex, not acoustic suspension. Unlike the NHT 2.9 or 3.3 woofer - looks like NHT is selling out.

Well I ordered all my NHT Classics from J&R Music world... I got the AZ's as soon as I ordered them and the 3's and 2C were pre order. Now the 2C shows available on their site as of 12:30 PST. Note: Their website shows full list if you order online, if you call, the pricing is below list by a good amount. Hopefully my 2C is being packed up and put on the brown truck today.

Is J&R an Authorized Dealer? If Not,you could have gotten possibly a better deal from Alimentall and have a warranty of 5 years to boot. ;)
Glad to see they(NHT 2C) are at least shipping.It's a good sign of the great things to come!

Ahh,just saw that J&R is authorized.I still prefer a dealer who has knowledge about the products I want,not just a salesman on commision that doesnt know squat about the product line.

I have found out that 2c's did ship today or yesterday to me. I was a little behind on the list so the very small amount of 3's and 3c's that may have shipped were sent elsewhere. John will probably get some of those knowing his status. I was told that NHT expects to be able to fill ALL orders by the end of the month and be able to ship any new orders at that time as well. That sounds promising to me. Everyone should be able to get their candy by the end of the month. Today is the 7th. Only 24 days left in the month. Not much longer.

Alimentall, unless the info on the NHT website is incorrect, the woofer on the 4 is bass reflex, not acoustic suspension. Unlike the NHT 2.9 or 3.3 woofer - looks like NHT is selling out.

No, NHT isn't "selling out". They've always made ported subs. It's just that the very top end models are typically sealed because they have more money to do it right. The T5/T6 are sealed, as is the Xd system. That being said, I have lobbied hard for a "Five" with dual 10" sealed powered subs. I don't think I'm winning this one, but I'm trying.

A stereo U1 setup with (4) 12" aluminum woofers, dual sealed enclosures, dual mono outboard amplifiers and outboard crossover streets for the same as a top end SVS sub with dual 12" woofers and inboard amps *and* it is more densely constructed! I know which one I'd take!

How about this measurement:

http://www.hedmag.com/Measurements/2003/December-2003-Issue/asset_upload_file747_4329.jpg

+/-.2dB for the U1, -3dB at 22Hz.

How about this measurement:

+/-.2dB for the U1, -3dB at 22Hz.

Very flat. How was this measured?

Of note for what I was talking earlier about in regards to extension and impulse response -- the U1 is already 10 dB down by 20 Hz and is rolling off at an extremely sharp angle. A very high order hi-pass filter is in play here. This will cause more group delay and system ringing than a less aggressively filtered sealed box. This is the same problem I have with the Onix UFW-12 I linked to.

I was told that NHT expects to be able to fill ALL orders by the end of the month and be able to ship any new orders at that time as well.
May I ask why you believe this? The uncritical acceptance of such statements from a source that has a demonstrated record of repeated misinformation is bizarre. I mean it MIGHT happen, but who knows?

May I ask why you believe this? The uncritical acceptance of such statements from a source that has a demonstrated record of repeated misinformation is bizarre. I mean it MIGHT happen, but who knows?

I think this is looking far more likely because the product has actually been built. The difference with previous announcements was that it was "three weeks" until we could get something air freighted in. This meant the product hadn't been built and, as I understand it, they were waiting only on the dome array to show up. The reason for optimism is that the the Threes, 2C and 3C have actually been built, some were on the way via plane, others were getting loaded onto a ship. So the crystal ball has become clearer. Fours and iW4s are a bit less clear because I don't believe the production has started, or at least, hadn't as of a week ago. But I don't think there is much to hold it back with the parts, I believe, all now available. Here's what I received a week ago, which is the most reasonable assessment I've seen yet:

2C- Starting to ship tomorrow, entire backorder by mid-month
3C- I will ship a couple on march 1, entire backorder by mid-month
Three- Will ship a couple on March 1, balance by end of month
Four- Hopefully by end of March. No solid date yet
IW4- Hopefully by end of March. No solid date yet
Xd Special Dark - Bunch coming in on the water. Here by mid-month
Controller/Power 5- More than we can handle here by mid month

Very flat. How was this measured?

It was close mic'd. 1M measurements have all turned out to be +/-.5dB instead of .2dB.

Of note for what I was talking earlier about in regards to extension and impulse response -- the U1 is already 10 dB down by 20 Hz and is rolling off at an extremely sharp angle. A very high order hi-pass filter is in play here. This will cause more group delay and system ringing than a less aggressively filtered sealed box. This is the same problem I have with the Onix UFW-12 I linked to.

Well, group delay is pretty controversial with respect to audibility. Some say it's not audible with any kind of reasonable delay. In any case, the reason for the steep drop off isn't a subsonic filter, but the fact that it is EQ'd below about 40 or 50Hz to maintain the response in a compact enclosure. Not sure what, if anything that does to group delay or if it is audible, it just limits the dynamic range a bit, but that's why these woofers come in pairs. They'll still make your pants flap on demand. But it will do it in a very precise, clean way. Anyway, as before, I'm only saying that NHT knows how to make a very competitive subwoofer and does. It doesn't make it the best choice for everyone, but I certainly enjoy them :)

Is J&R an Authorized Dealer? If Not,you could have gotten possibly a better deal from Alimentall and have a warranty of 5 years to boot. ;)
Glad to see they(NHT 2C) are at least shipping.It's a good sign of the great things to come!

Ahh,just saw that J&R is authorized.I still prefer a dealer who has knowledge about the products I want,not just a salesman on commision that doesnt know squat about the product line.

Yes, I can see how most of the people on here would find that to be an important part of choosing a speaker.. For me I don't need any hand holding, I didn't talk to any sales people, I just went on everyone's enthusiasm on here. It's really quite simple, I want a pair of 3s, a 2C and some AZs. It's the only thing I can afford so anything else carried at high end audio shops isn't in my ball park. Besides the NHT AZs sound so good compared to the $89.00 PAIR of JBL speakers they replaced that I'm certain I will really enjoy the bigger speakers on the way!!!!

10 years from now when I hit 40 years old I'm sure I'll have the time and money to audition things. The babies will be grown up so that they don't jab the really good speakers with improvised samurai swords, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a high end dealer of security camera systems and I hate nothing more than Internet dealers selling for 10% over cost as much as you do in your market. Your time is worth the extra money you charge for it to the right client.

P.S. the REM greatest hits DVD-A with 192K sound is great.

10 years from now when I hit 40 years old I'm sure I'll have the time and money to audition things. The babies will be grown up so that they don't jab the really good speakers with improvised samurai swords, etc.

P.S. the REM greatest hits DVD-A with 192K sound is great.

If it helps any I have 3 kids,now 4,6,7(8 in a few days)and they have NEVER bothered mt NHT SB-3's.Good luck with your security business and those Kiddies. :)

Oh.Also check out the DVD Pink Floyd- Dark Side of the Moon.Its only in 4.1 but it really is an experience.Glad to see you enjoy those NHT's srowin. :)

Glad to hear about the kids NHT4LIFE. I have 5 kids (9,7,4,2,4 mos) and have always had nightmares of crayons all over the tower speakers. So I have always opted for bookshelfs and mounted high on the walls. I now have a dedicated theater room where the door will always be locked. It is too small for Fours (only 13x11, but I am doing Three's all around, and the Three's in the front will be on stands instead of up high. Due to Jack's recommendation when I met him at CES, the Three's in the back will be mounted high on the walls, just to get a little more distance between me and them. Here's hoping the little paws stay off the ones in the front.

P.S. - Like John said, there was no way to do an A/B test, but the Three's sounded great to me. Goosebumps!!

If it helps any I have 3 kids,now 4,6,7(8 in a few days)and they have NEVER bothered mt NHT SB-3's.Good luck with your security business and those Kiddies. :)

Oh.Also check out the DVD Pink Floyd- Dark Side of the Moon.Its only in 4.1 but it really is an experience.Glad to see you enjoy those NHT's srowin. :)


Thanks NHT4LIFE, not to get too far off topic but my subwoofer has a small stuffed animal inside it!! She saw the hole and thought her little doggie wanted to go inside. 3 days ago she poured water all over the laptop and fried it. When I told her she broke it she (2 years old) said with much enthusiasm "so we go buy a new one?" Must be a shopper. Which got me thinking, I probably would have been more upset if she killed my new Denon AVR886 or the NHT AZ's even though both of those things cost less to replace than the laptop! I'm going to lock the cabnet with the AV gear ASAP. I removed the water cooler and shut the water supply off to the bathroom sink until protective measures have been put in place!

Hopefully my little story has distracted everyone from thinking about the 3's being delayed if even for a moment.

:eek:

srowin,I am in school for cisco networking and a+ certification.I have many pdf files for laptop repair of all the major brands of laptops,just hollar if you need any or you have any questions.Feel free to pm me anytime,would be glad to help you out.

stereowise,you are the first person I have heard comment other than John about actually hearing the Classic Three's.You got me feeling like an 80 year old on Viagra just hearing your comments on them.I cant wait for mine to get here!!

After the third vicious beating, my children learned about being careful around my electronics...and they say some kids never learn, HA! .....
(Tongue in Cheek) ;)

OneCall is now showing the 3C center channel in stock.

hmmm....for all these places having stock(nht 3c) I havent heard 1 person comment on the sound of them : (

I received a 2c yesterday from Audio Advisor, and it was well worth the wait.

I've only spent one evening with it, but I'd describe the 2c so far as being transparent, uncolored, and highly detailed; it is performing very well both in playback of movies and music. It is relatively efficient compared to the pair of classic model 2's that I'm using as the left and right front speakers. The 2c is somewhat brighter in tonality than the model 2s, but not by much.

Lastly, the fit, finish and feel of the new classic line from NHT is just excellent. I'm very pleased with how they look and sound, and the value is astonishingly high for the money, in my opinion.

Bump for a Classic 3C sighting? :rolleyes:

James

Hello,

What wall mount is best for the classic zeros?

I would like to put them on to a nice concrete wall for back speakers, but cannot find a wall mount as of yet. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Geff

They are designed to use the Omnimount 10.0 Wall.

First thought: Wow this thing is BIG. I'm glad I didn't get the 3C.

Last thought: Wow sounds great with the AZ's; having this kind of uniform sound is a first for me.

Surprise: The adjustable arm on the back so that you can control the angle of the speaker related to your seating position.

Disappointment: This speaker seems to cause interference with my 16:9 CRT. The noise happens on high passages of sound. I am disappointed because I don't want to send it back and be left without for a period of time if it's a warranty magnetic shielding issue.

Overall: Best thing since sliced bread in my audio world.

Would buy again? Yes, without hesitation.

:)

16:9 flat screen CRTs are *particularly* sensitive to magnetic interference. It is nearly impossible to shield a good speaker enough to function with them. Especially one with 4 drivers. I don't think any 2C would work. We have this problem regularly and I always recommend using something between the speaker and the TV to raise it an inch or two and that usually does it. Especially with the 2C, because the unique ultra-slim cabinet design puts the magnets that much closer to the TV than in a 10" tall center.

I'm surprised to hear you say the 2C is big. It is probably the smallest, certainly one of the smallest three-way centers on the market!

2C - BIG compared to a very small JBL two-way it replaced. I'm just not used to it being there on top of the TV yet.

FYI: The manufacture date on my 2C is Feb 20th, 06. So that tells you where their production schedule is at if these are the first things rolling out with the tweet/mid combo driver.

Regarding open ocean transport, I hope NHT paid more to be below deck!!! I learned that it costs more for your container to be below deck... they lose entire containers in big storms!! Maybe the first NHT container of 3's got tossed off and is at the bottom of the Pacific!!!! Transport usually takes 4 weeks so if they are on a boat, speaker's manufactured at the same time as mine will be here March 20th give or take a week for processing, shipping to distributors, etc.

:rolleyes:

Regarding the TV distortion issue during loud passages...

Dollars to donuts its not magnetic interference, but vibration. I had the same problem with a Klipsch center on top of an older Sony 32" CRT. I called Klipsch tech suport to question if it was magnetically shielded. It was, but via bucking magnets. The tech said he had seen this before and it was usually due to vibration into the set.

In my case, he was correct. I mounted some adhesive rubber feet to the bottom, and the problem was solved. Note that I am talking hardware store rubber feet...not the stupidly overpriced isolation devices you see in the high end catalogs.

YMMV, but see if you can isolate the speaker.

Brian

Have any AZs or 2s in the white finish been received?

I seem to recall reading that the "special dark" finish has been received, but I haven't read about white ones. I need white ones for the back channels.

White AZs and 2s are in stock at onecall.com Hope this helps you.Or,try Alimentall and see what he has in stock.

White has been shipping for 3 or 4 months!

I was in the market for new front speakers, so I decided to order a pair of the NHT Three's - I have NHT SuperZero's for surround and a Klipsch RC3 center speaker, my receiver is a Denon AVR 3300 (110x3, 35x2).

I have not had my system setup in a while, I am moving to a new apartment, the main living area is 19x13, so it falls under the "narrow" category I guess. I picked up these speaker stands as well - COSMIC24

Any advice on speaker placement? My LCD Monitor is going to act as my TV until I find a Panny I like, and will be placed in front of a large window (101" across), center speaker will probably go under the monitor, surround speakers I intend to mount in the back of the room on the wall near the ceilings can anyone recommend brackets and wire for this type of installation for the SuperZero's? I am thinking of buying this as my media stand from boconcepts:
http://www.boconcept.com/Files/Billeder/BC/Products/TVStereo%20units/TV-9.jpg

With my NHT Three's sitting on the 24" Cosmic stands on the outer portion of this media stand, how far from the wall/window do you think I should place them - I read in this thread it should be a good distance from the wall - will the media stand I linked above be a bad choice or would the wood actually help with brightness. My apologies if I do not have the lingo down exactly - I have been out of the game for a while.

I have my NHT SB-3's about 3 ft from the front wall.If you can go farther than that you should try itbut since their not ported you can go closer than if they were..As for the rear wall mounts go with Omnimount 10's for the little zeros.

Ps.
Where did you order your Three's from?I havent seen any sightings online yet at all.

BrandNamez.com

Did they confirm that they were in stock? I called them not long ago and they said they would be in in about a week but that was 2 weeks ago so I assume they may have them now,I just didnt see anywhere on the page that states they are in stock.

I hope like hell if you get yours before John sends me mine you let us all know how much you like or dislike them....Although I doubt you will have much to say negatively.Please post your thoughts on them here as I will do as well when they arrive.I think tons of people are waiting to hear our unbiased opinions of them rather than reading reviews from magazines that benefit from making speakers out to be something they are not(ie,B&W,Klipsch,Axiom) due to heavy sums of cash for marketing.

Yeah I am starting to get skeptical as well - they did charge my credit card - which I think they can only do when they ship them. I just emailed them - I will try calling tomorrow to see what is up and I will let you know.

Is Brandnamez an authorized BHT dealer?

doesn't look like it - no mention of them from nhthifi.com

I went ahead and ordered three..thanks for the info. I've been waiting for a while now for these speakers.

No.They are not authorized.No warranty other than one you work out with them.I would really call them tomorrow cuz I am skeptical of their site not showing stock.If you find that you were duped I would ask for a prompt refund and contact Alimentall to see what he could do as far as a deal is concerned.I feel for the price I paid with the warrany is a better deal than $600 after shipping and no warranty.

Is Brandnamez an authorized BHT dealer?

If it's a great price, go for it ;)

BrandNamez does not have stock on the new 3's. They would not receive their stock any sooner than say J&R or OneCall among the online resellers. Both J&R and OneCall showed stock on the 3 C and 2 C center channel speakers once they arrived. The same will hold true with the 3's. You would do better to wait for them or Alimentall to report the 3's in stock if you don't like BrandNamez holding on to your money. Which they don't mind doing. :D

Isn't it a little illegal to charge someone without shipping the product first unless it is crystal clear that the money is being accepted as a preorder?

Also 1 quick question, since J&R is an authorized NHT reseller - would I be better off buying from them? Is there something about a warranty when buying through an authorized reseller?

hell ya its better...youll get a 5 year warranty vs 1 year at best.Contact Alimentall and see if he can get you a preorder at a better price.Not sure now if he can since its so close to shipping time but he was having a special deal for members of his forum ----> http://forum.adnm.com/
Join in the forum and become a member of a true NHT lovers forum and join in in the discussions there.

Spoke with Brandnamez this morning. Said the Threes are in transit to them and should ship later this week. Also, according to Brandnamez they will honor the NHT warranty.

Spoke with Brandnamez this morning. Said the Threes are in transit to them and should ship later this week. Also, according to Brandnamez they will honor the NHT warranty.


I've never bought from Brandnamez and have no experience with them but with other things from other vendors I've been screwed down the line...

Imagine 3 or 4 years from now something fails and you need warranty work. Here is what can happen "Hi my blah blah broke and I need to get it fixed", "oh call the manufacture our warranty is 90 days" "but when I bought it the SALESPERSON told me you guys would honor the NHT warranty", "Who was it that told you that?" " I don't know", "well I don't know doesn't work here anymore and this company was sold two times since then and our policy has always been 90 days, sorry someone gave you bad information try the manufacture"

If the company is even in business at that time!!!

That is the value of buying it from an authorized dealer. Now NHT could disappear too but your odds of the internet reseller going under are better.

By the way, I believe that this policy of warranty for authorized resellers might be related to counterfit product. Everything from Calloway Golf clubs to complete Yamaha motorcycles are copied in China. Since these speakers are made in China, NHT must have a serial# tracking system on units that are legally produced there as to only acknowledge units they made money on. Let us not forget that the communist government is a partner in the company that made your NHT speakers AND that sharing the design and producing a bunch more without NHT's knowledge creates more work for the good of china's people.

Spoke with Brandnamez this morning. Said the Threes are in transit to them and should ship later this week.

Well, that would certainly be a lie! I just got off the phone with NHT and they have none to ship to anyone until next week.

Of course, if they aren't an NHT dealer, then they must be getting them from a dishonest dealer. I know NHT is earnestly trying to find out who. They almost accused me, but thought better of it. Mainly because I sell so darned much for our population. But there's no guarantee an non-NHT dealer will ever get any of these or won't get shut down within a few weeks.

I don't really care as it doesn't affect me directly, but I know NHT is furious about it and whoever gets busted is going to also be a non-dealer.

I just got off the phone with NHT and they have none to ship to anyone until next week.
.

Thats strange,I talked to Johnathan last week and after being on hold for a few minutes he returned to say that Classic Three's have already begun shipping as of the beginning of last week in small quantities,and the rest would arrive to dealers across the US by April 1st or so.

Yes, but that was like 30 pair available to, what, 150 dealers? I didn't even get a set and I'm one of their biggest single store dealers!

I guess I should have said "no more to ship to anyone until next week."

Just got this response regarding my order...

Dear Consumer:



Please be advised that the new shipment of NHT THREE, has been significantly delayed and has not arrived yet. This product was scheduled to arrive weeks ago and has not arrived yet. We are well aware of your situation. The next shipment of this product is scheduled to arrive by the end of the next week. We'll notify you and ship your product as soon as the new shipment of this product arrives. We apologize for any inconvenience. At BrandNamez.com, we are committed to provide our clients with the highest quality of Customer Service.

But we at BrandNamez.com like to charge your credit card for products that arent readily available.

Ps.
They are feeding you a load of horse 5h1t.I spoke with them 3 weeks ago and they said they would have them in stock by the following week.

Trust me,those non authorized dealers arent to be dealt with.They might as well sell from a white van...If your smart you will ask for a "prompt" refund on your credit card and order from Alimentall.I paid Alimentall for my Three's in advance in January but at least I know his phone #,his reputation, and I can speak with him directly about any concerns or questions that I may have.Not to mention the fact that your warranty is shite from those non-authorized fly by night places.

Went ahead and cancelled my order. Obviously, the information they gave me about shipping this week was inaccurate. Agree that going with an authorized dealer, such as Alimental, is the way to go.

Good job jgman !!! Give John a shout and I bet you'll be surprised at how much happier you are dealing with him and the warranty(god forbid something happened to them).

Wow, I just love my new 3's and C... LOL

http://pvreunion.com/1979_Photos/Untitled/TV_STAND1.PNG

Nice!!! Where are the grills? You know, that wall's so flat and white, I'm surprised you bothered putting up a screen! ;)

Nice!!! Where are the grills? You know, that wall's so flat and white, I'm surprised you bothered putting up a screen! ;)

I place this image up as a joke to help pass the waiting and give hope what the future will bring...

[QUOTE=DodgeViper]Wow, I just love my new 3's and C... LOL]


It does like nice, but with such space why settle with threes, why not get with the fours?

You should redraw you landscape a bit.

Damn,and here I thought that the new 3c came with its own anti-gravity beam to suspend it in mid air.Well,I guess NHT has to revolutionize that next ! Thanks DodgeViper for making the time go by more fun. :)

Anyone else take notice to Stereophile(which I think is mostly BS) listed the Evolution T6 as #8 in their best speaker category?Pretty amazing considering everything else was at least double the price of the NHT's and up. :eek:

Anyone else take notice to Stereophile(which I think is mostly BS) listed the Evolution T6 as #8 in their best speaker category?Pretty amazing considering everything else was at least double the price of the NHT's and up. :eek:

Ummmm, I do think that list was alphabetical ;)

More amazing is that John Atkinson seems to think the T6s are better than the NHT Xd :eek:

Oh man I feel bad for those guys - I just cancelled my order as well, his response was: "Was that the order for the NHT Threes?" "Yes" "Ok, wait just a second please I think that order has already been cancelled."

Serves them right for misadvertising (i.e. not displaying them out of stock / pre-order) and for charging peoples credit cards without first shipping the product.

To help kill the time of waiting for the 3's I have been busy. The stands are made of MDF and skinned with Oak Veneer. The base of each stand has 30 pounds of lead shot. None of the stands are put together as of yet and for these photos I had to prop the upright in order to take the photos. The base still needs the half round trim added. The hole you see in the base is for the speaker cable that will run through the upright. The speaker cable will need to be run before the final assembly and staining of the oak. I should have the six stands completed sometime next week. Wow what a job this has been...

http://pvreunion.com/1979_Photos/Untitled/P10100133.jpg

http://pvreunion.com/1979_Photos/Untitled/P10100144.jpg

great looking stands man !!! you putting Three's all the way around?

great looking stands man !!! you putting Three's all the way around?

Not on these stands. I had purchased a SVS system for the family room and this entire system and stands will be given to my son once the theater room is built...

I'm a wee bit old but open to being adopted by ya !!! LoL

ok kids...i spoke with brand-electronicscom and for anyone interested they have 1 pair and 1 pair only of Classic Threes in stock.Its not worth it to me as i got a good deal from John so Im gonna wait for the warranty speakers from him.I BSed the guy and told him that they have to be in stock because I wanted them overnight shipped(which was a fib I told them) to check to see if they were really there or not.He swore that they have a pair so anyone not wanting to wait or get from a credible store can gobble them up now.

Originally Posted by coues
I have already moved into another direction with my purchase of speakers. How long are we to wait... Maybe NHT should refrain from making any announcement until there in hand. They have lost this customer. I was set to purchase 2 - 4s, 4 - 3s, 1 - 3c, and a twelve for my theater room... Maybe in a few years when they begin showing up on Ebay I may look again... Shame on NHT...


I too feel your pain.But,do you really not have the patience to wait 7,14,or maybe at most 30 days for some speakers that may very well be worth all the wait? For the kind of money you are spending I just hope you dont make an irrational decision and spend all that loot on some speakers that arent as good just because they didnt arrive when they said they would.I already paid Alimentall for mine so I know how hard it is to wait for something you want so bad.I just hope you dont regret not waiting just a little bit longer.

So here we sit nearly 30 days. We have seen 7 and 14 days pass by and 30 days will have come and gone this Saturday. Not much has change other than the bickering of talk when the speakers will arrive. NHT should be totally shameful for creating such a mess for their loyal non-listeners. Rather sad on their part to keep pumping their fist and can not even take a moment to state as to why for the delay on website. Hell if they have this much trouble rolling out the product why would any of you care about the warranty. Can you even imagine having to send your speaker back for repair and no parts are available.

Looks like next week could be it. Almost there.

Coues, here's what you don't get (yet). NHT buyers don't buy because of NHT's business acumen or their marketing prowess or their amazing customer service. They wait for them with baited breath and anxious ears because the performance is mind-boggling for the price. If all I wanted to do was make money, I'd sell Bose or Polk or B&W or Paradigm. But I am willing to make notably less money because I have something genuinely exciting, unique and unparalleled to sell. Sure, it makes it rough sometimes. But then at other times, it's truly exhilarating. I've sold Infinity, Polk, B&W, Bose, JBL, Klipsch, Martin-Logan, Paradigm, Genesis, JMLab, Von Schweikert, and a bunch of others and the *one* speaker brand without which I can't imagine being in business is NHT. And it's not because other companies couldn't do what NHT does, it's because none of them bother. They're an over-acheiver, a curve breaker, a Michael Jordan, an Albert Einstein. That doesn't make them as sellable, marketable, easy. But it's eminently more satisfying and fun. The reality is, the NHT Four will outperform the B&W 800D in most ways, for 1/10th the price. If that's not worth waiting for, what is? I think there's a phrase - he who laughs last, laughs loudest. That will be in play over the next week or two.

Can you even imagine having to send your speaker back for repair and no parts are available.Since I have used NHT service when they replaced two blown woofers via Fedex from a pair of demos that I bought from the Wiz as they were closing their Massachusetts stores, no I can't imagine it.

Once they get the supply issues ironed out, their customer service is as good as any.

Once they get the supply issues ironed out, their customer service is as good as any.

This is true. The Classic/Xd situation is really diverting their attentions to the elephant in the room. Once they are beyond that in a few weeks, I think other factors will improve substantially. NHT is really a company of about a dozen very passionate, multi-tasking people, and getting product out is the first priority.

I wanted to talk to the president about a couple of future products and he said "call me in a few months, I got stuck with accounts receivable for the next month or so and I'm buried". Fortunately, they hired Stacy, who now appears to be my new best friend, to do AR ;)

<<They wait for them with baited breath...>>

Just what exactly do they "bait" that breath with anyway? If worms, mouthwash is definitely in order.
:)

bated: short for (a)bated..held.

I had an interesting conversation with an NHT authorized Internet/Retail dealer yesterday. The dealer was Audio Video Logic and the salesperson was Mr. Denny Thompson. Mr. Thompson has 30 years in the audio business and had what semed to be a clear command of his facts. According to Denny, NHT sent them a letter telling them that as of March 1st 2006, it was no longer permissable for them sell NHT products via the Internet or mail order channels.

Other than the NHT inventory on hand prior to March 1st, all future sales will be limited to "local sales" only. Mr. Thompson said he could not sell me any NHT product, unless I purchased them in-store from him. It looks like NHT is changing their marketing strategy and will be more like several of the more premium brands that control distribution more tightly than the mass market brands generally do. While I'm not saying there is a conspiricay here, it is hard not to notice the timing of this announcement in relation to the Classic product rollout.

What does their distribution tactics have to do with the release of the Classic 3's? Is there a cause and effect I'm missing here???

What does their distribution tactics have to do with the release of the Classic 3's? Is there a cause and effect I'm missing here???

If one wants to better differentiate your products from mass marketed offerings, as well as avoid some of the negative perception (some would say cheapening of brand identity) that accompanies heavily discounted goods; then one might choose to restrict the authorized sales to retail channels and thereby give your dealer network a less price competitive marketplace, where dealers would see less discounting and more product exclusivity in a given territory, which would likely help keep margins at more agreeable levels.

As the Classic line is a new offering and priced lower than the Evolution line that still remains, perhaps some of the changes are meant to minimize some of the price overlap between the two lines, while giving the custom A/V installation channel a more premium product to sell? Or maybe the idea of the timing was to create the demand first, thereby giving them some leverage to get dealers to agree to a new marketing arrangement? Of course, this is all speculation on my part, and we really do need to hear from other NHT dealer sources for confirmation of this change.

For the record: I am not employed in the A/V industry, or any sort of related business.

If one wants to better differentiate your products from mass marketed offerings, as well as avoid some of the negative perception (some would say cheapening of brand identity) that accompanies heavily discounted goods; then one might choose to restrict the authorized sales to retail channels and thereby give your dealer network a less price competitive marketplace, where dealers would see less discounting and more product exclusivity in a given territory, which would likely help keep margins at more agreeable levels.

As the Classic line is a new offering and priced lower than the Evolution line that still remains, perhaps some of the changes are meant to minimize some of the price overlap between the two lines, while giving the custom A/V installation channel a more premium product to sell? Or maybe the idea of the timing was to create the demand first, thereby giving them some leverage to get dealers to agree to a new marketing arrangement? Of course, this is all speculation on my part, and we really do need to hear from other NHT dealer sources for confirmation of this change.

For the record: I am not employed in the A/V industry, or any sort of related business.


This is the first I've heard of the "local sales" only policy. As I have some Classic Threes on hold at an out-of-town NHT dealer, I'm hoping this isn't true.

I paid for mine in mid january so if they came up with that bs rule it wont apply to me.At least I hope not.I wouldnt worry about it man,that audio advisor place is pretty much all internet sales.They were known for it whereas the dealer i called is not selling via a website like them.

I paid for mine in mid january so if they came up with that bs rule it wont apply to me.At least I hope not.I wouldnt worry about it man,that audio advisor place is pretty much all internet sales.They were known for it whereas the dealer i called is not selling via a website like them.

I too, am hoping this is not so; but Thursday's news would lead me to believe otherwise. As for Audio Advisor being any sort of indicator of future direction; consider that I bought my U2 sub system from them at a nearly close-out price a little more than a month ago, and they have not added another piece of NHT inventory since then (as best I can tell), judging by the lack of new NHT additions posted to their web site. I expect John Ashman will soon weight-in on NHT's marketing change of direction, as I would think this directly effects him.

Well,I dont feel this directly affects him at all.Like I said...Audio-Advisor was an internet based dealer whereas John is a showroom dealer.He doesnt have a website selling new NHT gear for discounted products like Audio-Advisor did.I can tell you that I almost went with some Paradigm Studio 20's for the simple fact that I could have gotten a discount from a dealer where the closest NHT dealer has salesmen that consider you a waste of their time(snobbish) unless you have 5 grand to spend.I talked to John back in January and told him I has X amount to spend and that if I could get the new Classic Threes just a little cheaper I would,otherwise I was going with the Paradigms.He went ahead and said he would,and now NHT has him to thank as I wouldnt have went with the Threes without him doing me that favor.John rulez and NHT Marketing Dept. sucks a$$.Thats all i have on this matter.They(NHT) should be calling dealers like John and thanking them for keeping customers business instead of giving them a hard time.

Well,I dont feel this directly affects him at all.Like I said...Audio-Advisor was an internet based dealer whereas John is a showroom dealer.He doesnt have a website selling new NHT gear for discounted products like Audio-Advisor did. <snip>

As we both know, John is the biggest NHT cheerleader around. No doubt (in my mind), that his persistent marketing efforts for NHT gear, on this and other such forums, leads to sales opportunities that are not local in nature. I don't know what the actual percentage of his local sales are in relation to Audio Design's overall business, but I would be willing to wager mail order business is (or has become) a significant factor for him. John's store location in New Mexico is a relatively small pond to fish in, compared to the broader geographical area this forum covers. If it is true that NHT is limiting transactions to local sales only, then it follows that it would (indeed) have a direct and (possibly) substantial impact on his business.

Audio Advisor actually has a showroom in Michigan. They carry a lot more brands in store than what you see on their website.

[QUOTE=zaracsan]As we both know, John is the biggest NHT cheerleader around. [QUOTE=zaracsan]

yes he is...But comparing John to Audio-Advisor is like comparing apples to oranges.John doesnt have a website with pictures of speakers with almost cost prices attached.If NHT tells him he cant sell me a pair of speakers then I will tell them that they will lose a customer over it as I will not buy NHT from any other dealer.Yes,there is a dealer about 100 miles away but I would rather buy from him.Thats my perogative.I really dont see NHT telling him to stop doing what hes doing because hes not selling online and his cheerleading only HELPS NHT...Besides,I CALLED HIM.He didnt call me peddling NHT.I made the choice to deal with him instead of the dealer 100 miles away for alot of reasons.

Sorry guys, I've been busy. Before people speculate too much, no, mail order isn't really a big thing for me, maybe 20% and 75% of that is used gear. I don't solicit mail order business in any way, but I am often flattered when people track me down and ask to buy stuff from me. Usually it starts out with "I can't find a dealer anywhere" or "the NHT dealer stopped carrying them" or "the NHT dealer went out of business". Trust me, being an NHT dealer is not the path to fame and fortune. Between the fact that it's been bought and sold several times in the last year and that they've lost a lot of their dealers because of, quite frankly, situations like this where product is announced a year or more in advance of delivery combined with the shaky economy, there are a lot of holes in their dealer network and a lot of people simply can't find the product. I know Jeff at NHT is crisscrossing the country working his ass off to pick up dealerships to fill in those spots, but there are simply places where you can't find the stuff. I have people from all over the country who want to buy Xd from me and I'm simply not allowed to sell them at threat of being extinguished. So people sit there and can't buy Xds from anyone. Then one of my Xd customers gets a flyer in the mail from an "internet vendor" for NHT that has Xd for sale at a discounted price. So, I can't sell at less than "minimum" price *or* out of state, but they apparently can do both. Someone called me the other day and I turned down a request to buy something, even though I had it in stock and even though I could have really used the sale, but I know he had a local dealer and worse, it was in the same territory as my own NHT rep, so it made sense to let it go and recommend that they buy locally.

In any case, Albuquerque isn't a huge market, but if you work it, it's got *plenty* for me. I sell almost $200K in NHT here and I've got 10,000 New Mexicans on my mailing list who get cards or newsletters every 3 months or so. All I have to do is get them to spend $100 on average and a year and, well, do the math. So, I'm not worried about whether I can sell out of state or not. What worries me is that it seems to be applied with a substantial amount of favoritism. Apparently a few big companies can do it and small guys like me can't? I hope that's not the case. But when you get a mailer for a place like "onecall" that has Xds on the same page as Klipsch and Sony, what does that do for NHT? Sure isn't doing them any favors on the perception of brand aspect. But I am going to have a big heart to heart on this one with the folks over there. I think they continue to make grave errors when it comes to dealers, marketing and consumers. Unfortunately, they don't seem to listen to me on this score. Whatever they do, it had better be consistent or dealers are just going to get fed up. Much as I'm not a big B&W fan, at least you won't find them at Audio Advisor or OneCall or any of these other places. That's why they have such a good rep. NHT needs to figure that out.

John,feel free to attach any of my posts here to NHT when you contact them.They need to here from the consumers on this as well.We are fed up with their Marketing Tactics as well....

Thanks,
Charlie Beller

But,do you really not have the patience to wait 7,14,or maybe at most 30 days for some speakers that may very well be worth all the wait?[from February 25th post]
Yet one more in a very long series of overly-optimistic predictions that the Classics are right around the corner bites the dust. All we've seen is the smaller center channel. No 3C, no 3, and no 4.

Sigh. . . .

At least I can say now that they have been shipped to the public.Small quantities but product has shipped none the less.So,technically I made a prediction for when I would get them and I was wrong,at least product was shipped by that date.I stand by my decision to hold out.Ive been told that NHT will have Threes in large quantities shipped "around" the first of April.So in 2 more weeks I will be sitting here hopefully telling you how much I enjoy them and they were worth the wait or regret waiting so long.I can tell you this,I was bored today so I went back to the local B&W,Paradigm dealer and I listened to 3 models.Paradigm Monitor 7's,B&W 603 s3 and B&W 602 s3 and I flat out told the salesman that my NHT SB-3's blow every model I heard out of the water.He asked if I would bring my Classic Three's in for an audition when they come in and I told him I will bring both the SB-3's and the Classic Three's.I went their to audition the Studio 20's or 40's but they only order as needed so I was stuck listening to the crappy stuff I mentioned above.So my point is this,if it takes 6 more weeks I will be happier in the long run because speakers are something I as a student will have to live with for years.Those Paradigm Monitor 7's gave me a dang migraine after a 30 minute audition so if a little more time is what it takes then so be it.I think NHT should apologize for the delays on their website but if the Threes are anything close to what John says he heard then I will be the last one laughing.

I don't solicit mail order business in any way,

Oh, God, it took me ten minutes to stop laughing long enough to type. Another NHT "Classic"!

Okaaaaay, do you have an example? I think I mentioned I have some used Axioms for sale a few times (still do). Other than that?

John,

I too laughed at that sentence.
While you haven't said "buy from me",
You do have a pair of Twos on tour and
you are an unapologetic cheerleader for NHT.

If I were in your shoes I would
have laughed it off rather than try to defend yourself.
It was funny.
I don't think anything less of you and your knowledge
of audio because he called you on it.

Schadenfreude,
What lines of speakers do you sell?

I too laughed at that sentence.
While you haven't said "buy from me",
You do have a pair of Twos on tour and
you are an unapologetic cheerleader for NHT.

Well, I just think there is a difference between being a cheerleader for brand you like and being an order taker and sales "solicitor", but if you don't, that's fine, it's a fine point of detail. The NHT tour is and always will be to get people who haven't experienced NHT to have that opportunity, because I think there is a lot more talk on AVS and other forums about speakers that aren't nearly as good and so more people really need to experience them. A rising tide lifts all ships, so maybe there is an indirect benefit, but I think there are simply way too many people who haven't heard an NHT and probably should. I have sold a *lot* of NHT for other dealers by referring business to them, including quite a few sets of Xds. I can understand the point, just not how it elicits laughter. I guess my point is that I'm not *asking* for sales, which, at the *very minimum* a part of "soliciting" -

To seek to obtain by persuasion, entreaty, or formal application: a candidate who solicited votes among the factory workers.
To petition persistently; importune: solicited the neighbors for donations.
To entice or incite to evil or illegal action.
To approach or accost (a person) with an offer of sexual services.

Anyway, it's not a big deal. I just think NHT deserves more buzz than it gets and I think it is a better product than 95% of the stuff out there and as good as the other 5% for the money. Schadenguy is just jealous because I sell better stuff ;)

BTW, one well known person here asked to buy something from me after hearing the Classic Twos in his house and I told him to buy from the local dealer that carried the product.

John,

Just to clarify.
I appreciate your participation on this thread.
So far you have given me good/sound advice.
I think NHT offers great value and I like their
philosophy.
They haven't ever tried to make minor improvements
accompanied by huge price increases to go after a different market.
Or to make it seem like their speakers are "better" than everybody elses'.
They are akin to Parasound or NAD in my mind.

If I were in your shoes I would
have laughed it off rather than try to defend yourself.
It was funny.
I don't think anything less of you and your knowledge
of audio

Nor do I, it was meant in jest, but, as with all humor, there is a grain of truth in there. I understand one's supporting those products they feel strongly about, it's just that there is a line of "over the top" that , I suppose, is differant for everyone. That is the line of blatent advertising and self promoting that many will not cross, especially because it may violate the spirit of the forum. I

Schadenguy is just jealous because I sell better stuff

Oh, please , if I thought it appropriate to run with a fanboy thread and turn it into a sales generating tool, how hard do you think that would be? It's just beneath me to do so.

BTW, one well known person here asked to buy something from me after hearing the Classic Twos in his house and I told him to buy from the local dealer that carried the product.

One.

Well, I just think there is a difference between being a cheerleader for brand you like and being an order taker and sales "solicitor", but if you don't, that's fine, it's a fine point of detail.

While I would definitely agree there IS such a difference, I do believe some of us here are smart enough to also know what the difference is between 'soft selling' and 'hard selling'. Your sincere belief in the products you are selling is to be commended, but please don't insult our collective intelligence by trying to paint your sales efforts as some sort of benevolent undertaking.

I sincerely appreciate your ethusiasm and feel that NHT would be foolish to completely disregard the value of your many positive Internet posts on their behalf. No doubt, you have created much "buzz" about NHT products; but you also have been so confrontational and controversial in that process, that I'll bet if the truth be told, they consider you something of a 'loose cannon' in Benicia.

John Lane (Swan), Mark S. (AV123) and Paul S. (Triad) are probably the best examples of walking the fine line between forum participation and encouraging interest in their respective brands that I have ever seen. You would do well to learn from their examples. Sometimes what you don't say IS as important as what you do. Nuff said.

Getting back on topic...

John: Can you confirm that NHT has sent its dealers a new sales agreement that prohibits Internet or mail order sales?

While I would definitely agree there IS such a difference, I do believe some of us here are smart enough to also know what the difference is between 'soft selling' and 'hard selling'. Your sincere belief in the products you are selling is to be commended, but please don't insult our collective intelligence by trying to paint your sales efforts as some sort of benevolent undertaking.

Well, I can't tell you what to believe, I can only tell you what I believe. I think it would be presumptive of you to think you know my intentions. For several years I didn't allow anyone to know that I was a dealer because all it does is get criticism when you talk about brands you like. I honestly think NHT deserves more fanfare than it gets.

but you also have been so confrontational and controversial in that process, that I'll bet if the truth be told, they consider you something of a 'loose cannon' in Benicia.

If I were trying to convince people to buy from me, I wouldn't be confrontational or controversial. If NHT wants to hire me as an internet support person, then I'd have to be ultra polite all the time. Since I'm not trying to make money, just make good recommendations for people who want it, I'm not interested in being friends with every person here.

You would do well to learn from their examples.

Yes, except they are sales people actively selling and supporting a company for whom they work or that they own. I'm not. Sure, I could be all sweet and huggy with everyone, but to be honest, there are quite a few people on AVS that are bullies and I don't play well with bullies. Nor do I feel like I have to. I just say what I think. I'm just an enthusiast, just like most everyone else. And just as opinionated.

John: Can you confirm that NHT has sent its dealers a new sales agreement that prohibits Internet or mail order sales?

It looks like they're trying to nail this down with new wording on the document, but they haven't specifically said anything about this to me. Well, they did and I started to say, "hey, what about these guys?" with the sales manager and then he just said "I'm not going to talk to you about it". I think it is, overall, a good idea *if* it's equal, no one does it. They do seem to put plenty of loopholes, "written permission", etc. I'm going to speak with the powers that be about this. I don't like the idea of a privileged few big companies getting to do mail order while small companies like myself have to compete against them without being able to offset in any way. I don't much like the fact that onecall is marketing to my customers at a price which I am not allowed to match, so I have sent off a complaint. Whatever they do, it should be fair, not smack of cronyism, as it does now. We shall see.

Oh, please , if I thought it appropriate to run with a fanboy thread and turn it into a sales generating tool, how hard do you think that would be? It's just beneath me to do so.

So, your purpose is........?

BTW, you know what actually keeps me here is that it's like a soap opera. Lot's of fighting, intrigue, shifting alliances, all that. I really, though, hope I get busy enough where I simply don't have *time* for all of this! It really just fills little spaces in the middle of the day between customers or in the evening when the kids are otherwise occupied. As my personal sales tool, it's pretty pathetic! But then, I'm really not trying!

This internet sales thing has become so big that the independents are just fading away.
NHT has got to keep it's volume up and if they stop mail order sales they will lose customers to companies who either don't care, or encourage it.
A friend of mine just closed down his store of 10+years.
He just couldn't take time away from his install business for customers who would come in and audition the equipment, never to be heard from again.
The hobbyist is a vanishing breed anyway.
It's all inwall stuff now.

Well, I can't tell you what to believe, I can only tell you what I believe. I think it would be presumptive of you to think you know my intentions.

Point taken. I shouldn't have presumed to know your intentions, but your actions (in the form of your posts here) make it hard for me to think otherwise.

For several years I didn't allow anyone to know that I was a dealer because all it does is get criticism when you talk about brands you like. I honestly think NHT deserves more fanfare than it gets.

Yes, but in the end, your Dr. Joel Bernstein nom de plume ended up blowing-up in your face and (IMHO) diminishing your credibility to most casual readers here; while putting Jack H. (and NHT) in a very untenable and undesirable position; all of which, ironically enough, quite possibly may have had the net effect of lessening the very interest in NHT which you were seeking to build or share in the first place.

If I were trying to convince people to buy from me, I wouldn't be confrontational or controversial. If NHT wants to hire me as an internet support person, then I'd have to be ultra polite all the time. Since I'm not trying to make money, just make good recommendations for people who want it, I'm not interested in being friends with every person here.

When you signed the Dealer Agreement with NHT, you were no longer a private citizen anymore (IMO). As such, you became a defacto spokesperson/represenative for NHT in public forums in which A/V is the central theme -- whether you like it or not.

Yes, except they are sales people actively selling and supporting a company for whom they work or that they own. I'm not. Sure, I could be all sweet and huggy with everyone, but to be honest, there are quite a few people on AVS that are bullies and I don't play well with bullies. Nor do I feel like I have to. I just say what I think. I'm just an enthusiast, just like most everyone else. And just as opinionated.

I'm not saying you need to compromise your beliefs or stifle your personality completely; but with as much knowledge as you can bring to bear on many subjects, it surely is a shame that you can't find a way to communicate without being so abrasive and combative all the time. You are a habitual 'beard puller' who can often turn an otherwise friendly discussion in to an ugly and unnecessary wrestling match. Being an equal opportunity offender makes it hard for others to have civil discourse in your presence.

I hope you will take the above comments in the spirit that they are offered, as I harbor no ill will toward you and am only trying to help you to see how your *style* is taking away from some of your good intentions.

It looks like they're trying to nail this down with new wording on the document, but they haven't specifically said anything about this. I think it is, overall, a good idea. They do seem to put plenty of loopholes, "written permission", etc. I'm going to speak with the powers that be about this. I don't like the idea of a privileged few big companies getting to do mail order while small companies like myself have to compete against them without being able to offset in any way. I don't much like the fact that onecall is marketing to my customers at a price which I am not allowed to match, so I have sent off a complaint. Whatever they do, it should be fair, not smack of cronyism, as it does now. We shall see.

Thanks for the comments on the new dealer agreement. I would agree that if NHT is going to change the way their products are marketed, then they need to consider making the same distribution restrictions apply across the board, to all of their dealers equally. Fairness really should be a requirement of such agreements.

What is the deal with onecall? Are you saying that you have a minimum price you can charge your customers, while onecall has another they can charge theirs? Or, are you saying they get better (deeper) discounted pricing than is available to you (i.e. tier pricing)? I had one NHT dealer tell me they only had 35 points in their stuff, yet I have previously bought NHT for less from an authorized dealer. No small wonder it is so hard for the one store dealers to keep their doors open these days.

This internet sales thing has become so big that the independents are just fading away.

While it is growing, it is still a very minor player in this buisness, the same way catalog sales and ads in the back of mags have always been. The bigger problem is the Bigger retailers trying to convince the average consumer that all this is commodity goods.
For an independant, it's side up with better manufacturers who value the audition space you provide, move upward in your target customer base, and deal with people who want install help.

He just couldn't take time away from his install business for customers who would come in and audition the equipment, never to be heard from again.

Certainly there are many doing the same, but that also creates goodwill and opportunity for those that still operate a showroom to show people better products. However, this can show you why many custom showroom people don't want to spend to much time with "Mr. Dougie DIY Demo" who does spend a lot of time in the store, but spends money elsewhere.

The hobbyist is a vanishing breed anyway.

Actually, many non-hobbyists want quality, they just haven't been exposed to it, they also are more interested in the Music than the gear.

It's all inwall stuff now.

It's a mistake to discount those who want a visually atractive element to their system, there are a lot of speakers that cater to these people, including some fine in-walls, the nice house that is well decorated is usually a sign of people who appreciate the finer things, hopefully including good sound.
Your friend may just need to step-up clients and close sales.

I think it is, overall, a good idea *if* it's equal, no one does it. They do seem to put plenty of loopholes, "written permission", etc. I'm going to speak with the powers that be about this. I don't like the idea of a privileged few big companies getting to do mail order while small companies like myself have to compete against them without being able to offset in any way. I don't much like the fact that onecall is marketing to my customers at a price which I am not allowed to match, so I have sent off a complaint. Whatever they do, it should be fair, not smack of cronyism, as it does now. We shall see.

I've seen this before with other manufacturers and I feel your pain, but there usually is some inequities in these arrangements. The authorized, on-line sellers are not supposed to put up a price lower than MAP, but, of course, most put a sign up that says "call for best price", etc. Once they have allowed ANY on-line sales, it's a bad sign because these companies will give deals and due to their low overhead, it is tough to compete with them. Even if you can prove that they are negotiating over the phone or on-line, many manufacturers will continue to make excuses for them as long as they move product.
My advice would be to continue your sales here on this forum as before, and challenge them to drop you. As long as you are moving product at $200k a year, a company like that would be unlikely to drop you, even if dealers in other states where some of your buyers live would get upset. The onecall/cronyism thing demonstrates what makes them happy, you should be fine. Good Luck.

I'm not saying you need to compromise your beliefs or stifle your personality completely; but with as much knowledge as you can bring to bear on many subjects, it surely is a shame that you can't find a way to communicate without being so abrasive and combative all the time. You are a habitual 'beard puller' who can often turn an otherwise friendly discussion in to an ugly and unnecessary wrestling match. Being an equal opportunity offender makes it hard for others to have civil discourse in your presence.

I actually enjoy John's honest combative style. It's helps the less knowledgable weed out alot of the misinformation that gets propagated on this forum.

Furthermore, about a year ago I tried to get John to sell me some Xd's as I had no local dealer. John declined citing restrictions on out of state sales. He did however refer me to a local dealer in my area. So calling the man a sales "solicitor" seems a little unfair.

I'm going to speak with the powers that be about this. I don't like the idea of a privileged few big companies getting to do mail order while small companies like myself have to compete against them without being able to offset in any way. I don't much like the fact that onecall is marketing to my customers at a price which I am not allowed to match, so I have sent off a complaint. Whatever they do, it should be fair, not smack of cronyism, as it does now. We shall see.

When I first purchased NHT in the early nineties, to my knowledge, there was a "no mail order policy". There seemed to be a few exceptions and ways to get around this. Crutchfield was one - however, they sold only at MSRP. I later found out about OneCall (Huppins); there were other ways, but it was a pain. BTW, currently,OneCall's website shows the Classic Two at MSRP. I did receive a recent OneCall flyer that advertised Xd's @ $5K (is that MSRP?). So, what's the beef with OneCall? JandR, now they seem to be using the "call for price" approach wrt NHT.

During the late 90's I did get a local NHT dealer; their inventory was spotty and they were reticent about going under MSRP. So, when it came time to replace SO's I started buying other brands; a well-known Canadian brand and now one well-known ID that I won't mention.

The no-mail-order policy could be a double-edged sword, but I'm not sure it's that "new"....?

The way I see it, if you support your local dealers fully, provide them with unlimited product and sales support, then they will sell all the product that you need. B&W certainly sells $150M/year with essentially zero mail order support. NHT can do the same, but they have to believe in their dealers *and* back them up. When Crutchfield sold NHT, all they did was make me look good, so I didn't mind. But, yes, it seems that OneCall is skirting the minimum advertised price on Xd whereas I can't, not that I really want to. But, if I get put under, then OneCall doesn't have a free New Mexico demo facility. Their one or two line "sales pitch" for Xd was *pathetic*, to say the least. It sounded like something you'd see in a Sky Mall or Sharper Image brochure. My beef with OneCall is not just that they are selling at a price that is not in accordance with NHT's rules, but more that they cheapen the product. It's the very same reason that you won't find a "Hyundai/Lamborghini dealer". But that what you have when you are selling Sony/Bose/Klipsch side by side with Xd. It's like "hey, NHT, thanks for allowing OneCall to make Xd a laughing stock". If I were my competitor, I'd be using the OneCall magazine against me. I don't know, I'm feeling a bit disillusioned at the moment. It's like your wife that you love dearly telling you that she used to be a prostitute.