New NHT Classic line to replace Super Audio [Text View] - Page 20

Alimentall

09-21-07, 10:57 AM

Also, keep in mind several things. Having a large excursion driver that has lower distortion or higher linearity at higher volumes doesn't mean it will have lower distortion or higher linearity at lower volumes. Plus, you have inevitable voice coil temperatures raising as you're forcing one driver to do the work of many.

The bigger NHT subs are good precisely because they're not trying to do too much with one driver. You have a distributed load on the driver/voice coil, each driver has to move substantially less to achieve the same SPL, you have force cancellation so less energy is transmitted to floors and cabinets, you can use drivers that have higher linearity at the volumes you are most likely to listen.

But it's funny, none of the big sub companies or their customers think about that. It's all about what you can do with a single driver. If that were bright, we'd be driving around in single cylinder cars. It's like my dad's S2000. It is heralded for large HP (for a small 4 cylinder), but is surprisingly slow when driving normally (slower than my Mazda even) because it just doesn't have the delivery of a bigger 4 cylinder or a 6 cylinder down low. I'm willing to be that, except possibly for subsonic bass, you can go to most any subwoofer company, buy two of the product that is half the price, and you will have better bass quality. You can't do that with NHT because the Evo subs don't go for doing more than a Classic sub, they go for doing it better. It's pretty much always been the case that the top end NHTs don't really play any or much louder with dual subs, they just have more precision.

So, yeah, I'd wager that, if you put NHT Evo and some of these big subs in a room with people listening at normal volumes on music, the NHTs would win. But those aren't the type of people auditioning these subs. It's the "who's got the biggest SPL and deepest bass" people.

The XdWs are actually the best subs I think I've ever heard, equalling or bettering all the really good servo subs I've heard. I assume that's because of DEQX because I don't think the drivers are better than the ones in a U1, but they pretty well kick the U1's butt. I assume this is because it can dampen the ringing of the driver. I can't wait to hear S80s in something other than a 3 million cubic foot room.

Tim916

09-21-07, 11:54 AM

New NHT prices starting October 1 (+15% across the board):

Controller - $3163
Power5 - $2300
Power2 - $1380

Xd system - $6900

Verve system- $2300

AZ - $460/pr
Two - $690/pr
Three - $920/pr
Fours - $2070/pr

AZ-C - $300
Two-C - $575
Three-C - $690

Ten - $690
Twelve - $978

M5 - $518 each
M6 - $690 each
L5 - $575 each

U1 - $1495
U2 - $1610

X1/X2 - $403
A1 - $460

OutdoorOne - $640/pr

IC1/iW1 - $230/pr
iC2/iW2 - $345/pr
iC3/iW3 - $460/pr
iC4 - $575/pr
iW4 - $1150/pr

15% is pretty dramatic for a domestic company. Maybe NHT was working off of thinner margins than the industry norm?

Tim916

09-21-07, 11:57 AM

Guys,

How would a 3C or a 2C match up with the Xd? Right now I'm using a Bluesky studio monitor that works well, but I wouldn't mind having something that looks a bit nicer.

Alimentall

09-21-07, 01:38 PM

15% is pretty dramatic for a domestic company. Maybe NHT was working off of thinner margins than the industry norm?

They were, definitely, which is what made them such a steal. Even if you take away the really good design aspects that are clever ways of adding performance without major cost and just look at cost to build, they're running way less than a company like Klipsch or B&W or whatever. NHT is a company that has to be bought, these other companies make so much money per unit, they can afford to buy other companies.

I do think they could have and should have handled it much differently. What good marketing guys do at these other companies is that they raise the price of the product when they make upgrades to the product (even if it costs the exact same amount to build). Or, like the internet companies do, they offer a month or two at a sale price before going to the regular price. Another thing you do is add in a less expensive model. For instance, if you raise Xd to $7K/pr, but release a small tower at $5K/pr, then you have the best of both worlds, higher margins, but a less expensive product for people with sticker shock.

For instance, the SW10 and SW12 were very low margin products, so they waited until they put the same amp/driver in a newer box to raise the price (the previous time the price went up). That is the best way to do it, even though the product isn't necessarily better than the previous model. Some of the products were pushing their value limits, such as the Ten/Twelve and so they will see their sales drop notably on those units. Or the Controller/Power5. We wedged those into systems with melted butter as is. The M5/M6, well, you just leave those alone and come out with a $1500-$1800/pr M7 or something. Evolution subs are still a pretty good bargain, but if they just moved the EQ/boundary card from the X1 and put it in the A1, then you'd have a reason to raise the price of the A1, even the W1, but the system would have retailed for *less* than the current package even at a higher margin.

The only possible shot that the margin will offset sales losses would be if it bumps a product into a more popular price point or moves it to a price that gives a perception that it is as expensive (and therefore as good as) it's closest competitor *or* that most of this stuff is simply spec'd in rather than direct comparison and if it's reasonable, people buy it. Obviously, some people will assume that an $1800 speaker is lower quality than a $2000 speaker, but offsetting thing is that even more people will chose not to reach that extra $100 or $200 beyond their budget and will settle for a $1500 speaker instead of moving up. And since NHT doesn't have a $1500/pr speaker........

The reality is that most of NHT's line remains a fantastic bargain compared to other typical brands, but it remains to be seen how raising the prices will have people perceive that. I don't think it was a good move the way it is being done, but no one as ever accused NHT of having great marketing savvy.

Alimentall

09-21-07, 01:44 PM

Guys,

How would a 3C or a 2C match up with the Xd? Right now I'm using a Bluesky studio monitor that works well, but I wouldn't mind having something that looks a bit nicer.

Tonally it's a pretty good match. I've had people have different comments. One says that he's glad he has it because it makes movies better, even though it's not nearly as good. Another said he couldn't hack the quality disparity and sold it.

DThiel

09-21-07, 05:19 PM

*edit*

b4z

09-21-07, 05:29 PM

15% is a huge one time increase.
My guess is that Vinci labs is trying to get back some of their investment
and to a lesser extent go after a different customer.

Lastly there was a big price increase over the SB3 with the Classic 3.
Granted the C3 is a 3 way but the jump is about 50%!

b4z

09-21-07, 05:33 PM

Oh yeah, I forgot the $ more of it's value since these speakers and electronics came out
and since they are made overseas they become more expensive to purchase.

buzzy_

09-21-07, 05:34 PM

15% is pretty dramatic for a domestic company. Maybe NHT was working off of thinner margins than the industry norm?Actually, that makes me think - much of their cost must be offshore, and affected by the fall of the dollar.

Anyway, the higher MSRP should be provide room for some great special offers! They did some last year around now IIRC, or a little later maybe.

Alimentall

09-21-07, 06:26 PM

Yes, now save even more ;)

Jack Hidley

09-21-07, 07:45 PM

The Evolution 12" woofer and the XdW 10" are very different. The XdW 10" has a different motor design with much lower distortion. The S-80 12" woofer and the XdW 10" are basically the same with the exception of the cone/frame/surround diameters.

NHT speakers are made in England, China and Benicia CA, depending on the model.

Alimentall

09-23-07, 10:44 AM

The XdW 10" has a different motor design with much lower distortion. The S-80 12" woofer and the XdW 10" are basically the same with the exception of the cone/frame/surround diameters.

Sounds like an utterly fantastic woofer for a Classic SuperTen and SuperTwelve subwoofer..........

mark russ

09-24-07, 12:44 PM

Hmmm, let me think. Get two subs that actually give me stereo, no port noise, force cancellation, improved accuracy and transient response or two subs that play 10 or 15B louder than I'll ever listen..........

Keep in mind that it's easy to make a big, bad, powerful sub. I'm sure Jack and certainly Bill Bush (it's his thing), could whip out a massively powerful sub that would make *impressive* sound, but I'd rather just have the accuracy and precision, even if I have to pay a bit extra to get it. It's why I fight to get the Ten and Twelve replaced by a "SuperEight" and "SuperTen". I do think Bill was talking about his big 18" or 21" Cerwin-Vega sub driver that weighs 75lbs or something. Vega Active, or something. I think he said the 21" would do 130dB without compression or something like that for $2K.

As I'm sure you are already well aware of, virtually any two subs could actually give you stereo in virtually any circumstance that Evo subs can. Which I might add, does not include on the Controller and still be able to use the Speaker Wizard's deq on anything other than T6 for sure and maybe T5s with dual A1s (not really sure of the deq would be affected by that or not) unless maybe there is an eventual software update with what I previously mentioned here:

How about an X1 option on the main L/R Speaker Wizard menu for something other than T5/T6?

IOW, like if you are using dual W1s for example as subs with Threes, M5s, SB-3s, etc. as mains. Or even a U2 set as subs (either with or without an additional extra 2nd A1 for stereo bass, this could also apply to dual A1 T5s as well).

That way, you could dial in stereo bass for the main L/R channels for music, and yet still have the sub out going into the sub/LFE in on the X1 for movies.

Also, maybe an X2 option as well for if you are bi-amping Fours, 3.3s, 2.9s, etc. as well for the very same reasons, although this would obviously be less critical than the X1 option.

Also, literally all SVS ported box subs can be plugged if so desired. Can the Fours? ;) Plus, the JL Audio F113 and Velodyne DD18 are sealed. :p

Finally, dual W1s, dual A1s, plus a single X1 all added up and put together only weigh 32 lbs. more than a single PB 13 Ultra. :eek:

mark russ

09-24-07, 12:52 PM

I don't know, I haven't heard them, but I'd bet dual XdWs would, let alone dual S80Xds :)

Besides, you can't be "free" of the problems with ported subs. You can minimize them though.

Even assuming they would, that still doesn't do you any good unless you also happen to have XdSs or M-80s. :p

As for ported sub's "problems", as I already stated in my last post:

Also, literally all SVS ported box subs can be plugged if so desired. Can the Fours? ;) Plus, the JL Audio F113 and Velodyne DD18 are sealed. :p

mark russ

09-24-07, 12:59 PM

So, yeah, I'd wager that, if you put NHT Evo and some of these big subs in a room with people listening at normal volumes on music, the NHTs would win. But those aren't the type of people auditioning these subs. It's the "who's got the biggest SPL and deepest bass" people.

Well unless and until someone ever mans up to do it, then you'll just have to keep speculating. :p

mark russ

09-24-07, 01:13 PM

Lastly there was a big price increase over the SB3 with the Classic 3.
Granted the C3 is a 3 way but the jump is about 50%!

Look now at how much more the Four is over the ST-4 it replaced. :eek:

mark russ

09-24-07, 01:31 PM

Oh yeah, I forgot the $ more of it's value since these speakers and electronics came out
and since they are made overseas they become more expensive to purchase.

Actually, that makes me think - much of their cost must be offshore, and affected by the fall of the dollar.

Wouldn't that be ironic if they ever have to move production from China back to CA over costs? :p

mark russ

09-24-07, 01:33 PM

Indeed, they were never designed to run full range. They roll off around 70 or so. Without a sub, they will sound very light.

Yep, if someone didn't particularly like the Classic series and wanted bookshelves without a sub, I'd have to recommend SB-3s over M5s.

Alimentall

09-24-07, 03:47 PM

As I'm sure you are already well aware of, virtually any two subs could actually give you stereo in virtually any circumstance that Evo subs can.

With the cost of a crossover and more dynamic output than is likely to be used. I prefer quality over ear-splitting quantity, thanks.

Also, literally all SVS ported box subs can be plugged if so desired. Can the Fours? ;) Plus, the JL Audio F113 and Velodyne DD18 are sealed. :p

You can't tweak for ported and sealed at the same time. Every thing you jam in a port is just adding compromise. Either you're sealed or you're ported. Choose one. As for JL and Velodyne, that is true, but one subwoofer has a too small driver trying to do too much and the other has a too big driver trying to do too little.

Finally, dual W1s, dual A1s, plus a single X1 all added up and put together only weigh 32 lbs. more than a single PB 13 Ultra. :eek:

And Tyra Banks weighs less than Rosey O'Donnell.

Alimentall

09-24-07, 03:48 PM

Even assuming they would, that still doesn't do you any good unless you also happen to have XdSs or M-80s. :p

You could easily run them without NHT Sats, though that would be kinda silly.

Alimentall

09-24-07, 03:50 PM

Well there ain't but one way to find out, why don't you send Craig a couple of W1s, A1s and a pair of X1s (both with and without the 20 Hz mod)?

I'm sure he would be happy to ship them all back to you when he is finished, unless he decided to just buy them and keep them that is. ;)

I'm not a big fan of Craigsub from *way* back (it's more about him than anything) and don't feel like spending $200 for shipping something that doesn't do anything for me regardless.

Alimentall

09-24-07, 03:51 PM

Look now at how much more the Four is over the ST-4 it replaced. :eek:

Yes, but still much less than the 2.9/T5 that it also replaced.

Alimentall

09-24-07, 03:52 PM

Yep, if someone didn't particularly like the Classic series and wanted bookshelves without a sub, I'd have to recommend SB-3s over M5s.

Mebbe. But the M5s are quite a bit better and I'd take them over SB3s even without a sub. With boundary set to "0", it's not as big a difference as you'd think and the M5s are much more precise, bigger soundstage, more resolution, etc.

mark russ

09-24-07, 04:18 PM

With the cost of a crossover and more dynamic output than is likely to be used.

Uhh, they have their crossovers built in (just like their amps), but then again, you really already knew that, now didn't you? ;) As for output, calibration solves that, but you already knew that too.

I prefer quality over ear-splitting quantity, thanks.

But seeing as how you have never even heard them before, as you admitted, then how would you even know? You have absolutely no concept or frame of reference to go by here for comparison.

I have. I've got W1s, and I'm telling you here and now, as good as they are, a PB12 Plus (the newer version) is even better, even on music, much less the PB13 Ultra

You can't tweak for ported and sealed at the same time. Every thing you jam in a port is just adding compromise. Either you're sealed or you're ported. Choose one.

Uhh, the selectable tuning modes already account for that, then again, this is something you prolly already knew. Then again, maybe you didn't seeing as how you claim you've never even heard them. :p

As for JL and Velodyne, that is true, but one subwoofer has a too small driver trying to do too much and the other has a too big driver trying to do too little.

Uhh, the JL Audio driver you are obviously referring to here as the smaller one is 13", which is even bigger than Evo's 12" drivers. So if it is too small a driver trying to do too much, then what does that say about 12" drivers? :rolleyes:

And Tyra Banks weighs less than Rosey O'Donnell.

Remember that next time you point out how much more NAD AVRs weigh than their competition. :D

mark russ

09-24-07, 04:29 PM

You could easily run them without NHT Sats, though that would be kinda silly.

And exactly how would you run an Xdw or S-80 sub without NHT sats?

You'd still have to buy the Xdas, and who is gonna pop the cash for that just for the subs only without going ahead and getting the sats too? :p

mark russ

09-24-07, 04:32 PM

I'm not a big fan of Craigsub from *way* back (it's more about him than anything) and don't feel like spending $200 for shipping something that doesn't do anything for me regardless.

Touche`! :D

mark russ

09-24-07, 04:33 PM

Yes, but still much less than the 2.9/T5 that it also replaced.

Not much less than the T5, and if you were to add the cost of an X2 and even just one A1 to the price of the Fours to biamp them with like you can the T5s, then it is actually even higher than the $2875 that T5s would now cost after the 15% price increase if the B5s were still in production.

Alimentall

09-24-07, 05:15 PM

Uhh, they have their crossovers built in (just like their amps), but then again, you really already knew that, now didn't you? ;) As for output, calibration solves that, but you already knew that too.

Plate amp crossovers? Yippee!

But seeing as how you have never even heard them before, as you admitted, then how would you even know? You have absolutely no concept or frame of reference to go by here for comparison.

I'm just relying on basic physics and engineering concepts. If you make a driver that is ultra long throw, you'll have issues with low level linearity and precision. There's no free lunch and it's marketing to suggest there is.

I have. I've got W1s, and I'm telling you here and now, as good as they are, a PB12 Plus (the newer version) is even better, even on music, much less the PB13 Ultra

That's cool, but I'm not sure I'd agree if I heard it as I have different tastes.

Uhh, the selectable tuning modes already account for that, then again, this is something you prolly already knew. Then again, maybe you didn't seeing as how you claim you've never even heard them. :p

:confused:

Uhh, the JL Audio driver you are obviously referring to here as the smaller one is 13", which is even bigger than Evo's 12" drivers. So if it is too small a driver trying to do too much, then what does that say about 12" drivers? :rolleyes:

One 12" NHT Evo woofer isn't powerful enough to do HT properly. Two is for most rooms, 4 certainly is. But the point is that you can have 6 12" woofers for the price of a single 13". I know which setup I'd pick (unless space was the issue)

Remember that next time you point out how much more NAD AVRs weigh than their competition. :D

Touche, though you have to look at the fact that the two W1s are physically smaller than a single 13 Ultra and weigh more. If size/cost were no object, you could build the speakers in a much bigger box. It doesn't matter if it's better if you can't put it in your house, does it? NHT's Evo is one way to do a sub system. I prefer that concept to an all in one system for room acoustic, for reliability, for precision, but others will go a different way.

Alimentall

09-24-07, 05:21 PM

And exactly how would you run an Xdw or S-80 sub without NHT sats?

Ummmm, plug an XdA into your sub out?

You'd still have to buy the Xdas, and who is gonna pop the cash for that just for the subs only without going ahead and getting the sats too? :p

Well, as long as we're throwing around expensive subs, I thought having a digital, impulse response corrected sub is kind of a cool thing. Of course, you could always just do DEQX.

mark russ

09-24-07, 05:29 PM

Plate amp crossovers? Yippee!

I'm just relying on basic physics and engineering concepts. If you make a driver that is ultra long throw, you'll have issues with low level linearity and precision. There's no free lunch and it's marketing to suggest there is.

That's cool, but I'm not sure I'd agree if I heard it as I have different tastes.

:confused:

One 12" NHT Evo woofer isn't powerful enough to do HT properly. Two is for most rooms, 4 certainly is. But the point is that you can have 6 12" woofers for the price of a single 13". I know which setup I'd pick (unless space was the issue)

Touche, though you have to look at the fact that the two W1s are physically smaller than a single 13 Ultra and weigh more. If size/cost were no object, you could build the speakers in a much bigger box. It doesn't matter if it's better if you can't put it in your house, does it? NHT's Evo is one way to do a sub system. I prefer that concept to an all in one system for room acoustic, for reliability, for precision, but others will go a different way.

You'd better go back and recheck your math.

W1 - 22" H 13.5" W 16.65" D
PB13 - 22" H 20.5" W 27" D

How do you get that 2 W1s are physically smaller than a single PB13?

Of course, for a true apples to apples comparison, you would need to compare the internal volume of two PB13s to two W1s. What was that you were saying about basic physics? :D

And finally, as for tastes, trust me, if, like me, you like W1s, if you were honest about it, I'm pretty sure you'd like PB12 Plus (even if it is SVS and not NHT) ;)

mark russ

09-24-07, 05:32 PM

Ummmm, plug an XdA into your sub out?

Well, as long as we're throwing around expensive subs, I thought having a digital, impulse response corrected sub is kind of a cool thing. Of course, you could always just do DEQX.

No John, the fact that a PB13 Ultra is about the same price as a U1 or a U2 is EXACTLY the point, not high dollar subs. An Xda and just for a single Xdw (by far the cheapest option) would still run well over $5K at retail. :eek:

But if anyone actually had the cash , as for the Xda, shouldn't it receive pre-outs, not sub outs? ;)

Alimentall

09-24-07, 06:37 PM

You'd better go back and recheck your math.

W1 - 22" H 13.5" W 16.65" D
PB13 - 22" H 20.5" W 27" D

How do you get that 2 W1s are physically smaller than a single PB13?

Simple multiplication?

Of course, for a true apples to apples comparison, you would need to compare the internal volume of two PB13s to two W1s. What was that you were saying about basic physics? :D

There is no apples to apples here. Some people will like a huge honking ported sub and some people will like sealed units and some will actually by both :D

And finally, as for tastes, trust me, if, like me, you like W1s, if you were honest about it, I'm pretty sure you'd like PB12 Plus (even if it is SVS and not NHT) ;)

Oh, I'm sure I would. I've heard some SVS subs and they're not bad at all (for a ported sub ;) )

Alimentall

09-24-07, 06:43 PM

No John, the fact that a PB13 Ultra is about the same price as a U1 or a U2 is EXACTLY the point, not high dollar subs.

A U1 is still going to cost you less than a PB13 Ultra at any normal dealer, even with the price increase. If NHT swapped out the X1/A1 and put in a plate amp, it would drop the price by $200-$300 but it wouldn't be as reliable as what they're doing.

An Xda and just for a single Xdw (by far the cheapest option) would still run well over $5K at retail. :eek:

Well, it would be silly to buy a single XdW. So, it's like a $7K sub system, but you'd be hard pressed to get anything as accurate or precise at any price. Louder? Sure. Now if only they can get room correction........

But if anyone actually had the cash , as for the Xda, shouldn't it receive pre-outs, not sub outs? ;)

Not unless you had an outboard crossover for the highs. In the example above, it would be just a powered sub, not that anyone would do that and not buy the matching satellites as that would be a bit daft. I would love to see NHT take about 8 of those 10" subs and turn them into stereo towers (4 woofers per) and take an XdA, decontent it, and then sell it as a ~$6000 super sub system. There'd be people who would pay for that.

mark russ

09-24-07, 07:03 PM

Simple multiplication?

OK then use that simple multiplication and take the numbers given for a W1 X2 and tell me how they add up to less than those given for the PB13. After all, you did say that two U2s put together are smaller than a single PB13.

mark russ

09-24-07, 07:08 PM

A U1 is still going to cost you less than a PB13 Ultra at any normal dealer, even with the price increase. If NHT swapped out the X1/A1 and put in a plate amp, it would drop the price by $200-$300 but it wouldn't be as reliable as what they're doing.

Well, it would be silly to buy a single XdW. So, it's like a $7K sub system, but you'd be hard pressed to get anything as accurate or precise at any price. Louder? Sure. Now if only they can get room correction........

Not unless you had an outboard crossover for the highs. In the example above, it would be just a powered sub, not that anyone would do that and not buy the matching satellites as that would be a bit daft. I would love to see NHT take about 8 of those 10" subs and turn them into stereo towers (4 woofers per) and take an XdA, decontent it, and then sell it as a ~$6000 super sub system. There'd be people who would pay for that.

Well we all know that no one is going to buy an XdW or a S80 to use with anything other than XdSs or M-80s anyway, so any discussion of it is simply a ridiculous waste of time quite frankly, because it's already an irrelevant, moot point in the first place. :p

Also, FWIW, a PB13 shipped is actually a little less than a single U1 with sales tax in my state (after the 15% price increase). However, even dual W1s would simply be outgunned by a single PB-13.

Like I told you before:

but, lets face reality here.

... on both of those counts. Of course, considering what's in your signature, nobody should have to be telling you that. ;) :D

Alimentall

09-24-07, 08:25 PM

OK then use that simple multiplication and take the numbers given for a W1 X2 and tell me how they add up to less than those given for the PB13. After all, you did say that two U2s put together are smaller than a single PB13.

Even with the X1/A1 combo, the U1 stereo sub system is over 1000 cu" less than the PB13. Should I call in a 4th grader? :D

Alimentall

09-24-07, 08:30 PM

However, even dual W1s would simply be outgunned by a single PB-13.

I disagree. Too many advantages to the NHT design. Maybe in raw SPL, though not by much and deep bass (depending on tune). The NHT would naturally have advantages in keeping energy in the room rather than the floor, in keeping the voice coils cool, in linearity, reliability, in accuracy, in lack of room effects, etc.

You're comparing a pickup truck to a sports sedan and claiming total superiority. :confused:

mark russ

09-24-07, 08:46 PM

Even with the X1/A1 combo, the U1 stereo sub system is over 1000 cu" less than the PB13. Should I call in a 4th grader? :D

Maybe you should call in that 4th grader to try to explain it to you.

Take these numbers:

22" H 13.5" W 16.65" D

... and then multiply them by 2, and tell me how it is actually less than these:

22" H 20.5" W 27" D

And the X1/A1s have absolutely nothing to do with it, except maybe for comparing weight. :rolleyes:

Just to refresh your memory, here is what you said:

Touche, though you have to look at the fact that the two W1s are physically smaller than a single 13 Ultra

Any 4th grader can tell you that if you take 2 W1s beside each other, the will be bigger than a single B13. :p

pierrebnh

09-24-07, 08:52 PM

Maybe you should call in that 4th grader to try to explain it to you.

Take these numbers:

22" H 13.5" W 16.65" D

... and then multiply them by 2, and tell me how it is actually less than these:

22" H 20.5" W 27" D

And the X1/A1s have absolutely nothing to do with it, except maybe for comparing weight. :rolleyes:

Just to refresh your memory, here is what you said:

Any 4th grader can tell you that if you take 2 W1s beside each other, the will be bigger than a single B13. :p

The concept of cubic inches seems to be lost on you.

2 W1s = approx 10,000 Cubic Inches

1 PB13 = over 12,000 Cubic Inches.

Ergo PB13 is bigger.

mark russ

09-24-07, 08:56 PM

I disagree. Too many advantages to the NHT design. Maybe in raw SPL, though not by much and deep bass (depending on tune). The NHT would naturally have advantages in keeping energy in the room rather than the floor, in keeping the voice coils cool, in linearity, reliability, in accuracy, in lack of room effects, etc.

You're comparing a pickup truck to a sports sedan and claiming total superiority. :confused:

Cars have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it John, we are talking about subs. But, since you brought it up, I used to have a GMC Syclone. Google it, and you will see that it was a truck that could literally outrun the Corvettes of it's day, some Ferrari's, Porches, etc. too. :D

It is the simple transitive property at work here, IOW, if 1 JLA F133 > 2 W1s, and 1 PB 13 > 1 JLA F113, therefore 1 PB13 > 2 W1s.

Alimentall

09-24-07, 09:00 PM

Google it, and you will see that it was a truck that could literally outrun the Corvettes of it's day, some Ferrari's, Porches, etc. too. :D

Exactly my point. In one aspect. Well, and it can haul more gravel.

It is the simple transitive property at work here, IOW, if 1 JLA F133 > 2 W1s, and 1 PB 13 > 1 JLA F113, therefore 1 PB13 > 2 W1s.

Greater is different from better. By your standard, the a Sony 5-disc changer is "better" than a Meridian, a 200W Sony amp is better than an NAD M3, etc.

I want a sub that dances with the music, not one that comes over and punches me in the chest for no apparent reason.

Alimentall

09-24-07, 09:00 PM

The concept of cubic inches seems to be lost on you.

2 W1s = approx 10,000 Cubic Inches

1 PB13 = over 12,000 Cubic Inches.

Ergo PB13 is bigger.

Pierre gets an A

Mark has to repeat a grade ;)

mark russ

09-24-07, 09:10 PM

Well, and it can haul more gravel.

Not much more, it could only hold 500 lbs. max weight. :p

Greater is different from better. By your standard, the a Sony 5-disc changer is "better" than a Meridian, a 200W Sony amp is better than an NAD M3, etc.

I want a sub that dances with the music, not one that comes over and punches me in the chest for no apparent reason.

You would be a little more qualified to compare them to each other after you have actually heard them all. ;)

Then again, you don't sell JLA and can't sell SVS. :o

Alimentall

09-24-07, 09:17 PM

I'm tempted by JL, but I really do prefer the NHT design as I love stereo subs and who can afford stereo JLs?

mark russ

09-24-07, 09:22 PM

Syclone - In 1/4 mile tests done by Car and Driver and other mags, the Syclone would beat a Ferrari 348ts. The Syclone would also win the 0-60 battle too. The computer in the Sy limits it to 126 MPH, whereas the 348 would go 166. One such test occurred in Colorado at the Bandimere Speedway near Emich GMC. The dealership pitted the Syclone vs. the Ferrari Testarossa, with a 385-horsepower boxer 12-cylinder engine, and in two 1/4 mile test, the GMC Syclone won hands down both times. The ET was 14 seconds flat but it has to be noted that Bandimere is located at an elevation of 5,800 feet.

A specially prepared Sy reached a top speed of 210.069 with a flying mile average of 204.145, on Sept 14, 1990. However, the Syclone Land Speed Record (LSR) was a bored-out 4.3L to a 5.0L normally aspirated engine. Horsepower was 545 with similar Torque figures.

Stock Syclones will run from 13.4 to 14.3 in the 1/4 mile, and Typhoons will run from 13.8 to 14.7, depending on the day's weather and the tuning of the vehicle. 0-60 Times for the Syclone and Typhoon vary from 5.0 to 5.5 seconds. These kind of times made the Syclone and Typhoon the fastest production trucks in the world. They handle pretty good too, pulling about .8 g on the skidpad.

mark russ

09-24-07, 09:25 PM

who can afford stereo JLs?

You can also get dual PB13s for the price of a single JLA F113, and the JL Gotham is like twice the price of the F113. :eek:

Dual Velo DD-18s are like half the price of one of their 1812s too.

pierrebnh

09-24-07, 09:31 PM

Syclone -

Exactly John's point. 1/4-mile, 0-60, all very cute.

on a track you'd get eaten for breakfast by a mini cooper.

mark russ

09-24-07, 09:34 PM

on a track you'd get eaten for breakfast by a mini cooper.

Just like a W1 would by a PB13. :D

Have some more of John's Kool-aid. Drink it up real good. (gulp gulp gulp) ;)

pierrebnh

09-24-07, 09:54 PM

Looks like analogies are lost on you too. oh well, I tried.

mark russ

09-24-07, 10:12 PM

Looks like analogies are lost on you too. oh well, I tried.

If you buy hook, line, and sinker into John's analogies, then it is you who is lost my friend.

NHT U2: (not that this bad at all though by any means, in fact, it is quite good)

Close-miked frequency response of the U2 subwoofer, measured from 10 Hz to 500 Hz, unfiltered (purple trace) and with 80 Hz low-pass filter engaged (green trace).

The chart shows the frequency response of the NHT Evolution U2 subwoofer, measured with a calibrated microphone positioned about 1/4-inch from the speaker cone. The subwoofer was driven with the supplied X1 crossover and A1 amplifier. The purple trace shows the response with the X1’s low-pass filter deactivated, the green trace shows the response with the filter engaged and set to 80 Hz. (The low-pass filter blocks midrange and treble signals from reaching the subwoofer.)
A frequency response measurement shows how consistently a subwoofer responds to different frequencies of sound. The flatter the curve looks, the better and more even a subwoofer will sound.

from:

http://www.hedmag.com/Measurements/2003/December-2003-Issue/NHT-Evolution-U2-Subwoofer-Measurements.asp

PB13

Instead of trying to find an independent member here's measurements, I will just use those on SVS' Site since said member said his were virtually identical:

Technical notes: Smoothed, quasi-anechoic frequency response: Measured with high resolution instrumentation via "ground plane" technique, outdoors, at two meters' distance, a minimum of 70 feet from reflective boundaries. 20 and 15Hz, 10 and sealed modes indicated.

15 Hz, 10 Hz, and sealed FRs are deliberately over damped in order to provide a gentle roll-off when measured under quasi-anechoic conditions. This increases available system headroom, and also makes better use of available "room gain" (i.e., the acoustic transfer function of the room) to achieve a flatter in-room response.

In-room extension, with corner placement, will typically yield 3-5Hz greater linear extension than shown. Results will vary based on room size, seat distance from your SVS sub, and subwoofer location in the room. Chart does not depict maximum output of this model and is not directly comparable to other SVS models except for frequency response.

From:

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb13ultra.cfm

pierrebnh

09-24-07, 10:23 PM

Sigh.

Let's try this one more time. You're showing me 1/4-mile times. Tell me how you did around the Nurburgring, then I'll be impressed.

mark russ

09-24-07, 10:38 PM

Sigh.

Let's try this one more time. You're showing me 1/4-mile times. Tell me how you did around the Nurburgring, then I'll be impressed.

OK, one more time: :p

If you buy hook, line, and sinker into John's analogies, then it is you who is lost my friend.

... as evidenced above.

Bone215

09-24-07, 10:51 PM

u guys are guessing what a sub sounds like?
u gotta listen, u know that

mark russ

09-24-07, 11:54 PM

u guys are guessing what a sub sounds like?

Well, some of us are anyway. ;)

u gotta listen, u know that

Nah, according to some here, a vehicle's track times will somehow give us the answer. :p

Alimentall

09-24-07, 11:59 PM

The problem with listening is that, unless you listen with the sub in the same spot and have spent a good amount of time doing all the phase/volume/crossover control, all you're doing is listening to your room and the settings.

Alimentall

09-24-07, 11:59 PM

Nah, according to some here, a vehicle's track times will somehow give us the answer. :p

This is me holding a mirror in your direction!

mark russ

09-25-07, 12:49 PM

This is me holding a mirror in your direction!

Well if you are holding it, then obviously it must be 2-way mirror, a magnifying one at that. :D

Alimentall

09-25-07, 12:53 PM

Oh, I was wondering how you got to be so handsome ;)

Alimentall

09-25-07, 01:09 PM

mark russ

09-25-07, 02:03 PM

I told him he should build the home version because all you have to do is hang an SPL number out there and people will flock. :D

Yeah, all the subs that get the most attention here, the PB13, DD-18/15, JLA F113/112, etc, it is only because of the SPL they can generate huh? ;)

Actually, I would like to see a dual W1 set up compared to some of that competition. In about all of the cases except for the PB-13, dual W1s would be about at the same price or even lower. For the price of dual F113s, you could get four W1s/A1s, and two to four X1s with the 20 Hz mod.

mattwardfh

09-25-07, 02:05 PM

Yeah, all the subs that get the most attention here, the PB13, DD-18/15, JLA F113/112, etc, it is only because of the SPL they can generate huh? ;)

When did you two get so catty with each other?

mark russ

09-25-07, 02:11 PM

Oh, I was wondering how you got to be so handsome ;)

Genetics my friend, which is why you have to pay your plastic surgeon. :p

mark russ

09-25-07, 02:19 PM

When did you two get so catty with each other?

We're just playin'. At least I am anyway. Just for the record once and for all, I have no problem with John personally. He's never screwed me over that I know of. I've even bought some used gear off of him before, and it was practically like new. But I've always taken some of the things he says with a grain of salt for what their worth because of his obvious agenda, and I must admit, it has been a little fun calling him out on some of it. :D

mattwardfh

09-25-07, 02:21 PM

We're just playin'. At least I am anyway. Just for the record once and for all, I have no problem with John personally. He's never screwed me over that I know of. I've even bought some used gear off of him before, and it was practically like new. But I've always taken some of the things he says with a grain of salt for what their worth because of his obvious agenda, and I must admit, it has been a little fun calling him out on some of it. :D

I thought it was good natured, but I swear a few months ago that you guys seemed to agree on more things. But maybe memory does not serve correctly and I'm far too lazy to go back through pages of forum posts to back up my claims with evidence...

mark russ

09-25-07, 02:28 PM

I thought it was good natured, but I swear a few months ago that you guys seemed to agree on more things. But maybe memory does not serve correctly and I'm far too lazy to go back through pages of forum posts to back up my claims with evidence...

Well, truth is, we prolly actually agree a lot more often than not, but if you were to go way back on this thread, you will see that we have pretty much already covered this same ground before when he was trying to claim that the Ten and Twelve (or maybe it was the SW10II and SW12) were better than any SVS or HSU. ;):p

Alimentall

09-25-07, 02:40 PM

he was trying to claim that the Ten and Twelve (or maybe it was the SW10II and SW12) were better than any SVS or HSU. ;):p

I never said that ^ I did say that they have different attributes that will appeal to different customers. I *have* traded in Hsu and SVS subs for Tens and Twelves, you know. Of course, that was before price increases and such, so I think they're really pushing it at this point and I will probably have to replace these with PSB subs. If there was anything in the line that least needed a price increase, it's the Ten and Twelve. At this point, used to enthusiastically recommend the SW10 and SW12, I *cautiously recommended* the Ten and Twelve at the old prices (and with a dealer discount tossed in). At the current pricing, I'd say "only if you really have to match the aesthetics" because I am not going to be able to discount them enough to compete the competitive. If they were acoustic suspension and had improved transient behavior and accuracy over ported subs, then sure, but the competition for ported subs is HUGE now. You have to do something different or better to warrant the price.

The Evos remain competitive because they are a superior design, though maybe NHT needs to be dropping those Xd drivers in there somehow. I did try driving the Xd woofer from an X1 and it clearly didn't sound as precise as it does normally.

Alimentall

09-25-07, 02:50 PM

Yeah, all the subs that get the most attention here, the PB13, DD-18/15, JLA F113/112, etc, it is only because of the SPL they can generate huh? ;)

Honestly? That's pretty much it, combined with the lowest possible F3 and an accompanying graph to show it's not too inaccurate.

Actually, I would like to see a dual W1 set up compared to some of that competition. In about all of the cases except for the PB-13, dual W1s would be about at the same price or even lower. For the price of dual F113s, you could get four W1s/A1s, and two to four X1s with the 20 Hz mod.

One of my ideas was an "X7" crossover that could handle anywhere from 3 to 7 subwoofers. Flew like a penguin. Yeah, for $6400, you could make two stacks of W1s about 3-4 high, which would be fun, if not complete overkill.

There are certainly times where one will need the best single subwoofer you can get. The U1 is probably not that, at least if you need high SPL at the lowest possible distortion. But I certainly don't strain mine.

Keep in mind that most people want to experience the bass as a separate entity while watching a movie and have the bass turned up 6-10dB too high (along with the rears) and therefore, higher output is needed. I set mine by music and leave it. I look at theater from a high-end approach, most people look at it from a "WOW!!!!" approach. I don't want to notice the bass at all during the movie. It kills the whole "suspension of disbelief" thing. I also tell prospective U1 customers that it will portray the movie as it has been recorded, it will not turn every little sound into a visceral event.

DekPM19

09-25-07, 05:32 PM

BTW, I asked Bill. His C-V sub does 136dB, but is tuned to roll off below 32Hz in order to go for the huge SPL, but he said it could be tuned to mid 20s at some SPL penalty (but he wasn't specific). He says it makes you sick to your stomach if you turn it up.

I told him he should build the home version because all you have to do is hang an SPL number out there and people will flock. :D

Not that I want to get in the middle of this but this isn't true. Craigsub (which I know how you feel about him) does test each sub the same way. Sure he gives the numbers of spl but he grades them accorrding to how they perform for him. I know everybody says you got to listen before you buy and I agree but when someone like craig has the money to try more subs than I will every have time or money to buy why not use it for a starting point. John you talked about the sealed verses ported the one thing I know about craig is he loves sealed subs over ported, so I was suprised when the pb-13 beat out the JL113. He even rated pb13 higher on music than HT. Then factor in the cost for one and I think it will be hard to beat.
Allen

Alimentall

09-25-07, 05:38 PM

Not that I want to get in the middle of this but this isn't true. Craigsub (which I know how you feel about him) does test each sub the same way. Sure he gives the numbers of spl but he grades them accorrding to how they perform for him.

I'm not sure why you thought I was aiming this at Craigsub. I was simply commenting that if you build an affordable sub that plays loud and deep with reasonable accuracy, people will flock. That is observably true and had nothing to with him.

DekPM19

09-25-07, 09:20 PM

I'm not sure why you thought I was aiming this at Craigsub. I was simply commenting that if you build an affordable sub that plays loud and deep with reasonable accuracy, people will flock. That is observably true and had nothing to with him.

I didn't say you where aiming this at craigsub. I said you where wrong about just hanging a high spl to sale subs. I was making a point that all of the top subs for the last year have been tested and graphed.(I was just pointing out that craigsub is the one who has done this) And sound and quality of sound does come to front not just high SPL.
Allen

Alimentall

09-25-07, 09:26 PM

All I'm saying is that if you make a sub that sounds halfway decent, but has huge SPL capability, it will sell. And that the SPL is largely seen as an indication of quality, the bigger the number, the better the sub. Kind of like the old oversampling wars or efficiency wars. The new war for subwoofers is SPL and I'm telling you right now, if C-V or anyone else put out a sub that did 130dB, a large group of people will flock.

As I told Bill, SPL is the new 0-60.

Alimentall

09-25-07, 10:45 PM

BTW, Allen, seriously, you have to have worked in the industry as long as I have to understand the absolutely *ridiculous* things upon which people make their decisions. I could tell pages and pages worth of stories about this stuff. Now, you can say "but 95% wouldn't make *that* decision", but see, it doesn't matter because 5% is a huge amount of people. And we *all* have our illogical side, that illogical buying decision that we will make *regardless* of the facts. And 1% of the time, we'll even admit it and do it anyway. It's, unfortunately, human nature. It's how politics and religion exist.

DekPM19

09-26-07, 12:40 PM

mark russ

09-26-07, 03:01 PM

and I'm far too lazy to go back through pages of forum posts to back up my claims with evidence...

Agreed, this thread has gotten far too long to try to find anything in it anymore. A simple search of this thread with SVS as the keyword returned far too many hits than I care to try to wade through, but in response to this:

I never said that ^

... some of what I was thinking about starts right about here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7254560#post7254560

with this post:

I'm just saying that NHT's subwoofer philosophy has and probably always will be that getting the frequencies you choose to do the best they can be is more important than a few extra Hz. Besides, most subwoofers actually are so inaccurate that ascribing a "+/-X dB" figure is essentially impossible. How do you describe a bell curve as a flat line? :) In any case, not pointing fingers at any particular company, just saying that, for NHT, they build "sports car" type subs rather than "SUV" type subs. And they know they'll lose some sales some times. I have a used Dayton Titan in here and it is very powerful, but it sounds boomy, heavy, slow compared to my NHT Ten.

and then keep going through the posts after that for a little ways.

jephdood

09-26-07, 03:10 PM

Is this thread even about NHT speakers anymore?

mark russ

09-26-07, 03:14 PM

I *have* traded in Hsu and SVS subs for Tens and Twelves, you know.

Congratulations, you found some suckers.

Of course, that was before price increases and such, so I think they're really pushing it at this point and I will probably have to replace these with PSB subs. If there was anything in the line that least needed a price increase, it's the Ten and Twelve. At this point, used to enthusiastically recommend the SW10 and SW12, I *cautiously recommended* the Ten and Twelve at the old prices (and with a dealer discount tossed in). At the current pricing, I'd say "only if you really have to match the aesthetics" because I am not going to be able to discount them enough to compete the competitive.

I couldn't agree more with you here. Even if the Twelve could be bought by consumers for it's wholesale price (which is prolly about half of retail), I still could not in good conscience recommend it to anyone over the SVS PB10. This previous post of mine pretty much covers my reasons why:

Take a look at the following reviews by the same guy in the same room, associated system, measurements taken, test material, etc. of the NHT SW12 and the almost half the price of the SW12 SVS PB10 ISD (IOW, one could almost buy two of the SVSs for about the same cost as a single SW12 or TWELVE, thus adding an additional 6 Db more output to advantage the SVS already has anyway).

Particularly notice the pics available of the drivers and the very obvious difference between them. The SVS's TC Sounds driver alone weighs half as much as the entire NHT sub does. Keep in mind too that this was the absolute cheapest TC Sounds driver that SVS used at that.

NHT SW12 http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_1/nht-sw12-subwoofer-3-2005.html

SVS PB10 ISD http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/svs-pb10-subwoofer-10-2004.html

Also, click here and then scroll down to take a look at some of the actual sub drivers that have been used before, such as in the Sub2 and VT-3:

http://home.comcast.net/~jhidley/

Now, I know the Evo drivers are better than that, but still ...

If they were acoustic suspension and had improved transient behavior and accuracy over ported subs, then sure, but the competition for ported subs is HUGE now. You have to do something different or better to warrant the price.

The Evos remain competitive because they are a superior design,

Keep in mind, the T6 got a Class A rating from Stereophile because of the M6, not because of the Evo subs. It's review, while positive, didn't turn glowing until the M6s were ran as large/full range without the X1's high pass outputs in the signal path:

http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/405nht/index2.html

though maybe NHT needs to be dropping those Xd drivers in there somehow. I did try driving the Xd woofer from an X1 and it clearly didn't sound as precise as it does normally.

Why didn't you try an X2 instead?

mark russ

09-26-07, 03:23 PM

Keep in mind that most people want to experience the bass as a separate entity while watching a movie and have the bass turned up 6-10dB too high (along with the rears) and therefore, higher output is needed. I set mine by music and leave it. I look at theater from a high-end approach, most people look at it from a "WOW!!!!" approach. I don't want to notice the bass at all during the movie. It kills the whole "suspension of disbelief" thing. I also tell prospective U1 customers that it will portray the movie as it has been recorded, it will not turn every little sound into a visceral event.

That's the beauty of it, anyone can dial in their bass however they want it on pretty much anything, regardless of their choice in subs.

One of the great things about the X1/X2 IMO, is that it has a separate LFE input and gain control in addition to main L/R inputs/gain so that you can dial in music and movies separately.

mark russ

09-26-07, 03:25 PM

John you talked about the sealed verses ported the one thing I know about craig is he loves sealed subs over ported, so I was suprised when the pb-13 beat out the JL113. He even rated pb13 higher on music than HT. Then factor in the cost for one and I think it will be hard to beat.
Allen

Of course, John has no problem with ported subs just so long as they're NHTs, especially the Four's. ;)

Alimentall

09-26-07, 05:45 PM

Of course, John has no problem with ported subs just so long as they're NHTs, especially the Four's. ;)

Oh, no, I do still have a problem with them, which is why I keep pushing for speakers and subs that aren't ported. Given the "built in China" value, I don't buy the excuse that it's good enough for entry level product. If I ran NHT, there'd be no ported speakers/subs at all. NHT building a ported sub is like Audi building a pickup for farm use.

Alimentall

09-26-07, 06:03 PM

Congratulations, you found some suckers.

Why do you say suckers? They came to me because they weren't happy with their previous subs and *are* happy with the NHT subs. I found the Hsu to be worse on several levels than the NHT and while the SVS wasn't too bad, the guy was not happy with the design at all and not as happy with the integration as he was with the NHT sub. Remember that extra dynamic range that you never use is pretty much a waste.

Also, click here and then scroll down to take a look at some of the actual sub drivers that have been used before, such as in the Sub2 and VT-3:

http://home.comcast.net/~jhidley/

Doesn't make sense to compare the old SubTwo/VT-3 driver. For one, they were used in a dual or quad setup always and they are 10 year old designs at this point.

Keep in mind, the T6 got a Class A rating from Stereophile because of the M6, not because of the Evo subs.

I don't know that you can say that. I'll bet if you asked them if the M6 alone was Class A, they'd say no. They liked the speaker as a system. I think it is a Class B speaker with a Class A woofer (but maybe Class B subwoofer)

Why didn't you try an X2 instead?

Because the XdW needs bass EQ to function.

MusicFirst

09-26-07, 06:05 PM

I've noticed my priorities have changed dramatically from music to movies (for several reasons), that, and the fact that I have less floor space requires that I get full range towers (so I can still listen to music without a sub) and add the very small Sunfire Signature EQ sub for LFE duties (thus I have to part with my beloved f113). I am looking at these three towers:Revel F12, NHT Classic 4, or Def. Tech. BP7002. They will be used for about 90% movies and 10% music (if that). When I do listen to music, I listen to all kinds. But I have practically no time to just sit and critically sit down and listen in the "sweet spot" much anymore. So I just need high output clear sound for HT.

I do like to play action flicks loud, and I want the most dynamic speaker possible, and very clear dialogue is very important. FWIW, the centers to accompany these towers are the Revel C12, NHT Classic 3 center, and the Def. Tech. C/L/R/ 2500.

P.S. I will be powering them with a Sunfire Signature amp (400w x 5) so power to drive any of them is not a problem.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

MF

mark russ

09-26-07, 06:37 PM

mark russ

09-26-07, 06:50 PM

Why do you say suckers? They came to me because they weren't happy with their previous subs and *are* happy with the NHT subs. I found the Hsu to be worse on several levels than the NHT and while the SVS wasn't too bad, the guy was not happy with the design at all and not as happy with the integration as he was with the NHT sub. Remember that extra dynamic range that you never use is pretty much a waste.

Doesn't make sense to compare the old SubTwo/VT-3 driver. For one, they were used in a dual or quad setup always You mean just like the Evo sub drivers are? ;) and they are 10 year old designs at this point.

I don't know that you can say that. I'll bet if you asked them if the M6 alone was Class A, they'd say no. They liked the speaker as a system. I think it is a Class B speaker with a Class A woofer (but maybe Class B subwoofer)

Because the XdW needs bass EQ to function.

If you had bothered to actually click on and read the Stereophile link provided, you would have found that it said the following:

Postscript from May 2005 (Vol.28 No.5):

When I reviewed NHT's Evolution T6 loudspeaker system in April, I ran out of time and space before I could explore the possibility of running the system "commando" style; ie, with the X1 electronic crossover bypassed for the M6 satellites. While the satellites would no longer benefit from the filter's high-pass function, thus reducing their ultimate dynamic-range capability, I wondered if the elimination of the filter, which is constructed to utilitarian rather than high-end electronic standards, would get the ultimate sound quality from these impressively engineered speakers.

I run my system balanced, so I constructed a passive adapter that took the left and right feeds from my Mark Levinson No.380S preamp and fed them to two pairs of output XLR jacks via short lengths of twisted solid-core wire. One pair fed my ML No.33H monoblocks, which drove the M6 satellites. The second pair fed the X1 crossover, the low-pass outputs of which were each connected to an NHT A1 monoblock driving an NHT B6 subwoofer.

As there is now no high-pass filter in the M6 feed, this necessary function is provided by the speaker's natural rolloff. Looking at fig.15 in my April review, the M6 extends down to 80Hz, with then a well-controlled second-order rolloff. And because the M6 uses a sealed-box alignment, its twin woofers will be less likely than a reflex design to run into excursion problems at high levels.

Even so, getting the optimal blend of satellites and subwoofers proved a lot more tricky than with the X1 providing the high-pass filtering. I kept ending up either with a discontinuity in the midbass, which left the low bass sounding behind the musical beat, or with too much midbass energy, which made the sound too muddy. Fortunately, the X1's versatile controls—you can change subwoofer low-pass frequency, level, and phase—allowed me eventually to dial in a balance that wasn't very different from what I'd achieved in my review (see fig.18 in April, blue trace).

But wow. If I thought the sound of the Evolution T6 system was pretty damn good with the X1 in the satellite feed, with the M6es fed direct there was now a superb sweep to the presentation. Perhaps more important, though the M6es without their grilles on were still slightly on the bright side, there was now a sense of high-frequency ease to the presentation that eliminated any feeling of strain. I had mentioned in my original review how I found myself playing more chamber and small-scale works, neglecting the big orchestral recordings. That was not the case with the "commando"-style T6es.

I reached for an old favorite, Bryden Thomson conducting the London Philharmonic in orchestral works by Ralph Vaughan Williams (CD, Chandos CHAN 8502). From the haunting opening of the first Norfolk Rhapsody, with high violins punctuated by harp, oboes, clarinet, then pizzicato basses, through to the cinematic climax of In the Fen Country, which echoes a theme from the composer's A Sea Symphony, this 1987 recording held my rapt attention. The low frequencies were rich and majestic, the midrange detailed and uncolored, the high frequencies clean without either reticence or sizzle.

Stereo imaging was also improved, in that a better sense of depth was developed behind the plane of the speakers. The solo instruments in the Vaughan Williams works, for example, were very well defined in space, their images stable and solid. The NHTs were also excellent at presenting the reverberant clues that, in a recording made with purist mike techniques, indicate the venue's size. While preparing this and the previous issue of Stereophile, I have also been editing a new CD from Canadian pianist Robert Silverman, to be released this spring (footnote 1). For the sessions, which took place last summer at Weber State University in Utah, I used Ray Kimber's IsoMike array, specifically a pair of Neumann M150 omnis spaced either side of a large, heart-shaped baffle. Whether I listened to the 88.2kHz session files decoded by my Mark Levinson No.30.6, the Musical Fidelity X-DACV3 I write about elsewhere in this issue, or by the Benchmark DAC 1, the NHT T6es presented an image of Bob's Steinway that was surprisingly stable (given my use of omni mikes), within a believable modern concert-hall acoustic. Nice. Very nice.

With its subwoofers rapidly rolling off below 30Hz (see fig.10 in my April review), NHT's Evolution T6 cannot achieve a Class A rating in Stereophile's "Recommended Components," for which true 20Hz extension is mandatory. But with the M6 satellites driven direct and the X1 reserved for driving the B6 subwoofers, I can confidently recommend the Evolution T6 for inclusion in our Class A (Limited Extreme LF) category. And at $4000 for the compete system, it is a true bargain.—John Atkinson

Clearly, the M6s impressed Mr. Atkinson much more so than the B6s did.

Alimentall

09-26-07, 07:13 PM

I do like to play action flicks loud, and I want the most dynamic speaker possible, and very clear dialogue is very important. FWIW, the centers to accompany these towers are the Revel C12, NHT Classic 3 center, and the Def. Tech. C/L/R/ 2500.

I think the NHTs are the best of both worlds, but I have to disagree with Mark a bit in saying I personally would get Revels over Def Techs to get midrange and bass clarity over bass abundance. The ThreeC does have excellent midrange clarity. And all of these speakers are probably quite away from the F113, but whereas the Revels probably have a bit cleaner mid/upper bass and the DefTechs more of the thick "home theater" bass, the NHTs strike a nice balance of a little of both. The only other caution I have is that they can be a little forward in a lively room.

Milner

09-26-07, 07:14 PM

MusicFirst

09-26-07, 07:16 PM

I'd prolly have to recommend the Def Techs or the Fours in this case for movies only without a sub. Either way, it'll be a long ways off from what you're used to with the F113. :(

Don't know much about Def Tech's matching CC speaker, but the Four has a true 3-way matching CC in the 3C, but the Def Tech has true on wall matching surrounds if I'm not mistaken.
Actually for movies I will be using the mains plus the Sunfire Signature EQ or non-EQ sub to help fill in the low end for LFE. That said, I do think both the Def. Tech. and the Classic 4's will help fill in the low end better. For the very rare occasions that I now actually sit down and listen to music, I will only be using the mains with no subwoofer. But again HT is what these speakers will be used for with the Sunfire sub. It definitely SUCKS about losing the f113.

Thanks,
MF

Alimentall

09-26-07, 07:18 PM

If you had bothered to actually click on and read the Stereophile link provided, you would have found that it said the following:

Clearly, the M6s impressed Mr. Atkinson much more so than the B6s did.

That's not quite my interpretation. If anything, he wasn't quite thrilled with the X1, but on the other hand, running the M6 full range and adjusting the M6 to them is pretty ridiculous. I've tried that and it just doesn't do it for me. The best sound I've heard is with the Fosgate or NHT preamp running crossover duties and the X1 only handling EQ. Now if only we could get that EQ and boundary switch in an A1.............(heck, at this point, put a damned plate amp in there and sell it for $1000!)

Of course, I have trouble with the M6 as a Class A speaker because I know it too well. It's better than some Class A speakers for sure, but Class A should be a much more demanding class of speaker than it is. The complement isn't being in Class A, it's being in Class A for $4000. Obviously, you'd want to discontinue that speaker as soon as possible after the review :rolleyes:.

Alimentall

09-26-07, 07:23 PM

Actually for movies I will be using the mains plus the Sunfire Signature EQ or non-EQ sub to help fill in the low end for LFE. That said, I do think both the Def. Tech. and the Classic 4's will help fill in the low end better. For the very rare occasions that I now actually sit down and listen to music, I will only be using the mains with no subwoofer. But again HT is what these speakers will be used for with the Sunfire sub. It definitely SUCKS about losing the f113.

I have to say, if you're using it with a Sunfire sub, the Revels actually have the better theoretical design for that. You don't want to run two different subs in the system as they will have different phase responses and will likely cancel at some areas. If you cut off the Four's bass, it's a bit of a waste. I've been trying to get NHT to build a smaller version of the Four that is actually much more like the Revel in driver layout and response exactly for use with a sub. If you run the Revels with a ~50-60Hz crossover, I'm sure they'll play more than loud and should blend pretty well.

I'd still listen to all of them though because you still may prefer any one of the three over the others.

MusicFirst

09-26-07, 07:48 PM

I have to say, if you're using it with a Sunfire sub, the Revels actually have the better theoretical design for that. You don't want to run two different subs in the system as they will have different phase responses and will likely cancel at some areas. If you cut off the Four's bass, it's a bit of a waste. I've been trying to get NHT to build a smaller version of the Four that is actually much more like the Revel in driver layout and response exactly for use with a sub. If you run the Revels with a ~50-60Hz crossover, I'm sure they'll play more than loud and should blend pretty well.

I'd still listen to all of them though because you still may prefer any one of the three over the others.
Thanks for all the advice John.

What if I were just to run either the Def Techs. and the Classic 4 "full Range". The BP7002's have a built in crossover that automatically blends the built-in subs with the mid-range drivers so you can just use the speaker wire without having to use the line input on sub amp, which means I don't have to add the LFE signal to it. Then just use the Sunfire for the dedicated LFE input?

Thanks again,
MF

Alimentall

09-26-07, 08:32 PM

Well, you could do that, but it would actually more likely be better to run the fronts at, say, 50Hz and then let the Sunfire handle 50Hz and down. If you can, you'd want to set the center at about 100Hz, at least with the ThreeC.

Alimentall

09-27-07, 08:07 PM

Man, you stop arguing over nothing and the thread really slows down ;)

tonygeno

09-27-07, 10:00 PM

Man, you stop arguing over nothing and the thread really slows down ;)

But hopefully the signal to noise ratio will improve.

mark russ

09-28-07, 12:04 PM

mark russ

09-28-07, 12:14 PM

The best sound I've heard is with the Fosgate or NHT preamp running crossover duties and the X1 only handling EQ.

But you simply can't do that on the Controller and retain stereo bass. You have to chose your compromise, either give up stereo bass, or use the X1's high pass outputs.

Unless maybe you could set mains as M6 through the speaker wizard and run the Zone 2 outputs into the L/R inputs on the X1 while using the X1's low pass filter and then just have to make two different volume adjustments?

Of course, other options are the NAD M3 integrated and B&K Reference 5 S2 preamp/tuner. ;)

The complement isn't being in Class A, it's being in Class A for $4000.

Actually, it looks to me more like being in class A for only $1200 (before price increases of course). :p

Obviously, you'd want to discontinue that speaker as soon as possible after the review :rolleyes:.

Well, it wasn't discontinued ASAP after the review, and Jack already stated that the review had absolutely no effect whatsoever on any increase in sales of the model:

Mark,

When the T6 was given a Class A ranking in Stereophile, there was absolutely no change in the sales rate of the model. Tower speakers just aren't selling.

Every dealer on the planet is convinced that they must sell the customer a subwoofer with whatever left and right speakers they sell the customer. Customers hear this from every dealer they visit, so they believe it must be true. The majority of customers don't have the space or money for tower speakers and a subwoofer, so the tower speakers usually get the axe before the subwoofer.

Besides, you can still get M6s on P6s with dual W1s, which is arguably even better than the T6 for actually a little less $$$ (again, at the old prices).

mark russ

09-28-07, 12:20 PM

..., but I have to disagree with Mark a bit ...

Imagine that. :p

Alimentall

09-28-07, 12:27 PM

But you simply can't do that on the Controller and retain stereo bass. You have to chose your compromise, either give up stereo bass, or use the X1's high pass outputs.

True, but dual mono bass is 90% of stereo bass.

Unless maybe you could set mains as M6 through the speaker wizard and run the Zone 2 outputs into the L/R inputs on the X1 while using the X1's low pass filter and then just have to make two different volume adjustments?

That would be tricky!

Of course, other options are the NAD M3 integrated and B&K Reference 5 S2 preamp/tuner. ;)

Now we're talking!

Well, it wasn't discontinued ASAP after the review, and Jack already stated that the review had absolutely no effect whatsoever on any increase in sales of the model.

Possibly, but the only real problem with the T6 sales was its looks. If it looked anything like a Classic Four, it would have been impossible to keep in stock. The problem was that only a few dealers would carry it because of the aesthetics, though I thought it was just a little boring, not ugly. Of course, I told them that when they debuted, but.......

Besides, you could get M6s on P6s with dual W1s, which is arguably even better than the T6 for actually a little less $$$ (again, at the old prices).

True. Very true. But imagine of the M6/P6 had been a real tower with a nice cabinet. That's what I had been pushing the the Classic "3.5", but I'm pretty well giving up on that ever happening.

mark russ

09-28-07, 12:42 PM

Damned! That was fast! I barely even had time to make the edit after I found Jack's quote I was referencing. :eek:

What do you do, lurk here all the time just waiting to pounce on a post? :p

Alimentall

09-28-07, 12:49 PM

Hey, I have to keep up with you!

Actually, doing some work on the computer and about to deliver an NAD receiver.

MusicFirst

09-28-07, 01:02 PM

Oh, my bad. I didn't notice the Sunfire sub. :o

Why don't you just keep the JLA F113 and get Threes, M12s (or even better yet, M22s if you can find a new pair for $1000), or M5s/M6s?

Any of those combos would easily trump F12s or Fours with the Sunfire sub.
No room for even the "small" f113. The Sunfire Sig. barely fits.

Patrick

MusicFirst

09-28-07, 02:00 PM

DekPM19

09-28-07, 05:18 PM

MusicFirst

09-29-07, 02:03 PM

Let us know how the system sounds when you get evrything setup. I agree very much with Mark about an M6 set up with the f113. I think this combo will be hard to beat. So I would like to know if you fill you are missing anything with the 4's and sunfire.
Allen
Allen,

Yeah, I will let you guys know. I agree over all, the M6's with the f113 will sound better. But I just plain don't have room for the f113 anymore. That thrown in with the fact that the system is now almost completely for HT, I think the difference in sound will be less noticable overall. For music I think the would be a more noticable difference.

MF

oldears

09-29-07, 05:05 PM

That's not quite my interpretation. If anything, he wasn't quite thrilled with the X1, but on the other hand, running the M6 full range and adjusting the M6 to them is pretty ridiculous. I've tried that and it just doesn't do it for me. The best sound I've heard is with the Fosgate or NHT preamp running crossover duties and the X1 only handling EQ. Now if only we could get that EQ and boundary switch in an A1.............(heck, at this point, put a damned plate amp in there and sell it for $1000!)

Of course, I have trouble with the M6 as a Class A speaker because I know it too well. It's better than some Class A speakers for sure, but Class A should be a much more demanding class of speaker than it is. The complement isn't being in Class A, it's being in Class A for $4000. Obviously, you'd want to discontinue that speaker as soon as possible after the review :rolleyes:.Wasn't there a post 2-3 months ago about a guy who is upgrading the X1s for a few hundred $$?

Peter

mark russ

09-30-07, 02:23 PM

Wasn't there a post 2-3 months ago about a guy who is upgrading the X1s for a few hundred $$?

Peter

That was me Peter.

While we had more than enough "maybes", we needed to have a minimum of 10 firm commitments in order to go forward with it, and we unfortunately failed to reach that number. Even if I had done all of mine at once we would have still come up short. :(:mad:

However, I'm extremely confident that if there ever is a next generation A1 released from NHT, it will be a definite upgrade over the current model in all areas. ;)

mark russ

09-30-07, 02:37 PM

Well, even though I have not even un-boxed my BP7002's I got yesterday, I went ahead and ordered the Classic Fours and a Three center before the price hike on Mon. Got the nice discount to boot from my dealer that I always go to. So I got the Classic 4's, the three center, plus a brand new Sunfire Signature EQ subwoofer for only about $350 more than it would have cost me if I were to keep the Def Tech. BP7002's and the C/L/R/ center (which I also got about a 10% discount off of retail on).

Now I have to sell off my beloved f113 and M6's plus P6 stands. As far as money goes, It will almost be a wash. Of course I am giving up a lot in the quality bass department with the f113, but like I said I am now over 90% HT for use of my system. For the rare times I do listen to 2 channel music, I am sure the Four's will do fine when run full range without the Sunfire.

Thanks for everyone's input!

MF

Keep in mind Jack's comments about adding a sub to Fours here:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/1206nht34/index6.html

Regarding comments made about low-end output, NHT recommends a couple different options if users want to extend bass output or extension.

If listeners want more bass output or control, do what Michael did, bi-amplify the towers with the X2 crossover and two A1 power amplifiers. This will give them more control of the bass as well as more output capability by increasing the amplifier power available to drive the 10" subwoofers over that of what a typical receiver can supply.

However, if even more bass extension is desired, it is necessary to use a subwoofer with bass response below 20Hz and very high output capability. This subwoofer should be low-passed around 40-50Hz, with the Four high-passed around the same frequency. This will probably require an active crossover with phase adjustment such as the X2, since the adjustments found in most surround processors will not be adequate to properly integrate the Four with the subwoofer. Ideally, end-users should use an acoustic measurement device too, provided they know how to use it properly.

We don't recommend using the Classic Fours with an external subwoofer covering the same frequency range. At some frequencies, the output from the external subwoofer(s) will add to that of the Fours and at some frequencies it will cancel the output from the Fours. The results will be worse than having no external subwoofer at all.

However, the following is what Ed at SVS once told me about integrating a sub with Fours based on Jack's comments quoted above:

There is no reason why you can't XO these speakers at anywhere between 40-80 Hz using the digital bass management in your AVR. Most AVRs will feature a 2nd order high pass and a 4th order low pass. So don't be hesitant to select 80 Hz, since the speakers will still have useable output well below that frequency (12 dB down at 40 Hz).

What Jack is referring to above: The fact that your speakers are bass reflex and extend to ~30 Hz before roll-off, combined with the dissimilar high/low pass slopes in the AVR (a carry-over from the THX days which has largely lost its usefulness), can create some minor FR and phase related issues when integrating a subwoofer, but every enthusiast faces the same thing these days when high-passing quasi-full-range bass reflex towers.

If it helps, I XO my full range towers at 100 Hz (because that's what provides the best combined sub/speaker FR in my room) and don't give it a second thought. High passing the mains will allow them to perform better with lower THD and IMD and will also reduce the load on your AVR/amp stage.

Despite their rated extension, your NHT speakers cannot hope to match the clean max output capability of a pair of SV subs below 80 Hz. Most people only look at FR extension and not dynamic output capability. Your mains should have approximately the same max output capability as your subs at the selected XO frequency, or overall system dynamics will suffer. That is why it's better to select a higher XO frequency than a lower one; your speakers have much more headroom and dynamics at 80-100 Hz than they do at 40-50 Hz.

But that last paragraph prolly will not apply in this case since you have the Sunfire.

IMO, you might want to seriously consider getting the X2 and dual A1s to go with the Fours if you decide to keep them instead of the Sunfire.

MusicFirst

09-30-07, 03:09 PM

But that last paragraph prolly will not apply in this case since you have the Sunfire.

IMO, you might want to seriously consider getting the X2 and dual A1s to go with the Fours if you decide to keep them instead of the Sunfire.
I will be crossing over the Fours with the Sunfire at about 50Hz using the very flexable x-over system found in the Integra 9.8 Pre/Pro. As I said, this is almost exlusively for HT (and TV), I think that keeps getting lost in all of this. For movies, I just don't think it is that big of a deal. If I ever get a chance to seriously listen to music again, I will simply run the Fours full range, and for the amount of time I will get to listen to them "critically" that will be fine. But with my seven and three year old boys, combined with my future wife's seven year old and two year old girls, the priority of just sitting down and listening to music in that "critical" way, just is not going to happen much for quite a few years! ;)

Just not worth the trouble of getting into the complex hassle of running external x-overs and amps. The built-in 10 inchers in the Fours and the Sunfire for 50Hz and below for HT and TV is going to be just fine. :)

DekPM19

10-01-07, 01:05 PM

xcjago

10-01-07, 01:45 PM

What in the world is going on with the third graph on this page?

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/1206nht34/index5.html

It's the off axis horizontal response of the Classic Three C and it looks horrible.

I thought 3-way center channels were supposed to eliminate these types of aberrations.

Looking at the last graph on that page, there also appears to be a large suckout around 6khz 15 degrees below the tweeter.

Alimentall

10-01-07, 02:38 PM

Ideally, the 3C would be crossed over at about 400Hz or a bit less, to match the wide dispersion of the dome, but that would impact the dynamic range/midrange distortion too much, probably more than the added dispersion. It would be nice to see a 4C with a bigger cabinet, deeper bass, dual midrange dome for these reasons, but I doubt it will happen.

Keep in mind that MTMs are worse with the off axis dispersion (certainly more damaging to the sound) and the 3C is dirt cheap for a 3-way center (though others are coming down too). When the M5 came out, it was, for awhile I think, the least expensive 3-way on the market.

I also think the dome array has a lot of untapped potential if they can keep refining it.

mark russ

10-01-07, 02:59 PM

Mark have you tried crossing over higher. If ED thinks full range speakers run out when crossed over at 80 hz makes wonder what he really thinks about something like the M5/6 being crossed at 80 Hz.
Allen

Allen, I use 80 Hz for the most part, but FWIW, on the T5s I would sometimes bump it up to 100 Hz for movies when I had the CA Azur 540R AVR on them and it was handling the crossover duties. I thought it worked great on the T5s, and that was with only one A1 on them at the time (so the bass was mono).

Unless he has changed recently, Ed has dual PB12 Ultra/2s run in stereo, and he has each one relatively close to it's corresponding main L/R tower, which was basically in effect the same thing I was doing with the T5s.

I know it prolly sounds cliche`, but IMO, you really need to have the subs close to the mains to avoid localization if over 80 Hz.

Also, one other thing to keep in mind about what Ed said as it relates here is that the M5s and especially the M6s will play louder and have better dynamics than Threes/Fours too.

tvsurfer

10-01-07, 03:47 PM

My NHT Classic Threes and 3C cross-over at 120Hz as this creates near perfect integration, much better than at the THX reference 80Hz, at least for my room. The SVS seems invisible now with the bass seemingly coming out of the Threes and 3C with no frequency dips anywhere.

MusicFirst

10-01-07, 06:40 PM

Also, one other thing to keep in mind about what Ed said as it relates here is that the M5s and especially the M6s will play louder and have better dynamics than Threes/Fours too.
Interesting that would be true of the Fours too, considering the 10" driver, ported config. etc., compared to the sealed M5/M6. Now if you were talking the T5/T6, I could understand that a little better. From all I have read (in all the reviews) the Fours play extremely loud and are really dynamic as well. Guess I can find out for myself in a couple of weeks. Just have to compare before I sell my M6's. I'll just cross them both over at 80Hz with one of my subs (maybe the f113 before I sell it) and run a little test. :)

MF

mark russ

10-02-07, 12:43 PM

M6s can CRANK!!! :eek: :D :cool: ;)

mark russ

10-02-07, 12:46 PM

Hmmm, let me think. Get two subs that actually give me stereo, ...

True, but dual mono bass is 90% of stereo bass.

:D

Alimentall

10-02-07, 12:49 PM

Smartass! ^

I did say 90%, not all :p

mark russ

10-02-07, 12:50 PM

BTW, if anyone is interested, there is a whole slew of M5s and M6s on ebay right now at good prices if they don't get much higher, but unfortunately they seem to be lacking their grills.:(

I'm pretty sure you could order some from NHT though.

Alimentall

10-02-07, 12:53 PM

What in the world is going on with the third graph on this page?

Also, if you actually listen 45 degrees off axis, you just get a Three as a center so you do get the wide dispersion. You can't match a small bookshelf for good dispersion.

mark russ

10-02-07, 01:01 PM

Smartass! ^

I did say 90%, not all :p

Damned! Once again I make a post and you are there like 2 seconds later! :eek::p;):D

Jack Hidley

10-02-07, 01:07 PM

Regarding the 3C lateral dispersion measurement, see my response on the next page of that link.

To add to it: Measuring a center channel 60 degrees off axis is pointless. No one is ever going to be seated in that position. For that matter no one is going to be seated 45 degrees of axis either. As an example of sitting 45 degrees off axis, the couch is located 8' from the center channel, the couch is 16' WIDE and the listener is seated at the end falling off. 60 degrees of axis is much farther out.

The off axis measurement is actually better than what the curves show due to the measurement technique. The woofers in the 3C are roughly 0.5m apart, but the microphone distance was only 1m. When drivers are separated by this much distance, it is inaccurate to only have the mic 2x the distance away. It results in a measurement with more comb filtering than if the mic was at a more appropriate, and realistic distance, of 2m (4x).

Ashman is correct about the crossover frequencies. Ideally we would have the crossover around 450-500Hz, but the 2" dome just can't go that low without seriously compromising its dynamic range.

Regarding the 3C vertical dispersion:

The 5kHz notch below tweeter axis isn't a problem because we supply the speaker with a 3rd foot specifically to angle the speaker down when used on top of a TV. This is explained in the owner's manual which are never read by whoever does the review measurements.

Alimentall

10-02-07, 01:15 PM

The woofers in the 3C are roughly 0.5m apart, but the microphone distance was only 1m.

:eek:

This is explained in the owner's manual which are never read by whoever does the review measurements.

:)

Alimentall

10-02-07, 01:16 PM

Damned! Once again I make a post and you are there like 2 seconds later! :eek::p;):D

Dude, I have to keep my eye on you, you're dangerous ;)

MusicFirst

10-02-07, 01:49 PM

M6s can CRANK!!! :eek: :D :cool: ;)
Yeah, I know. From what I hear so can the Fours though! ;)

MusicFirst

10-02-07, 01:52 PM

Also, if you actually listen 45 degrees off axis, you just get a Three as a center so you do get the wide dispersion. You can't match a small bookshelf for good dispersion.
I actually thought of this to match with the Fours. My concern is it would not be quite as dynamic as the ThreeC given it only has one 6.5" driver and the C has two. Plus like Jack says not many people are even going to watch at a 45 degree angle (I think 30 degrees in most cases is pushing it).

MF

leepalao

10-02-07, 10:04 PM

mark russ

10-02-07, 10:14 PM

While the old SA-3/SA-2 bass amp/crossovers could be hooked up via speaker wire leads, unfortunately, it is simply not possible to use the X1 without pre-outs of some sort (preferably also with main-ins), or at least a sub out.

Some integrated amps, such as most typical NADs for example, do have pre-outs/main-ins. Other integrateds I know of with this are some Creek and Rega models. Also, Musical Fidelity too if I'm not mistaken.

One other option you might want to at least seriously consider is the Outlaw RR2150 2 channel stereo receiver, which has it's own built in crossover/sub out.

pierrebnh

10-02-07, 11:37 PM

Also, if you actually listen 45 degrees off axis, you just get a Three as a center so you do get the wide dispersion. You can't match a small bookshelf for good dispersion.

I like my SB3 center. I'd say the other LP is around 30 deg off axis, but I also like the seamless frontstage with the ST4 towers.

My next purchase is EQ-related first, although I'd love to A/B the Classics.

oldears

10-03-07, 01:31 PM

Hello all. I have a newbie question. I'm getting a pair of three and a U2 system, planning to crossover at around 80-120 hz. I want to save space and looking into integrated amp. How would I hook that up to the X1? I know that a pre-amp is easy for this just by looking at the back of the X1, but an integrated amp has no L/R output and input... just speaker terminal.. Is it somehow possible or am I stuck looking for separate if I want to use the U2 system? Thanks.An excellent match. I have 3's and U2's, and run them from a receiver. MAKE SURE if you see pre-outs and main-in on the back of the amp that the system can be used as a jumper system. For example, the system I use is a Pioneer Elite, which has inputs for each channel, and pre-out for each channel, but they can't work together! They are there only for either direct input (as from a CD player with multi-channel out) or with an external amp.

To use the X1 properly my choices are the following:
(1) just use the sub/LFE out on the pre-amp into the X1 and set the speakers to "small" (which is what I do)
(2) use my rear channels amps (channels 6 and 7), which the amp allows to be used for "room 2," as amps for the front channels by putting the X1 mains output back into the rear channel inputs, but this doesn't allow me to turn off my amp and has the front channels "run free."
(3) On my Yamaha integrated amp, there are actual jumpers, which when removed allow the system to be used correctly.

So if you haven't bought your amp yet, make sure you can run pre-out into X1, and X1-out back into the main amp inputs.

Peter

Pupton

10-04-07, 10:41 AM

Are there any Int Amps / AVRs where you can run the Threes from Left/Right amp channels, as well as connect the L/R preouts to the X1 > A1s > W1s

Alimentall

10-04-07, 10:44 AM

Any of the NADs will do that.

Pupton

10-04-07, 10:45 AM

NM the above post - My question s/b rephrased "what are some of the better Int Amps/AVRs" that do this & I see Mark has already answered this in a previous post...

Pupton

10-04-07, 10:46 AM

And John :)

mark russ

10-05-07, 12:58 PM

Are there any Int Amps / AVRs where you can run the Threes from Left/Right amp channels, as well as connect the L/R preouts to the X1 > A1s > W1s

NM the above post - My question s/b rephrased "what are some of the better Int Amps/AVRs" that do this & I see Mark has already answered this in a previous post...

What are you up to now Mike? Do you still have the 2.9s, T5s, and the Fours?

I would recommend the Controller with the Power5/2 (or any other decent power amp) over anything else, even just for 2 channel, but the Stereophile Class A rated NAD M3 integrated is my next best recommendation, and it does allow for something that even the Controller doesn't - true stereo bass without having to use the X1's high pass outputs. Also, it retails for about the same as the Controller alone. ;)

Among other 2 channel gear, the B&K Reference 5 S2 tuner/pre-amp and the Emotiva RSP-1 pre-amp also have this capability too. In addition, the Emotiva has a "HT bypass" (processor loop) as well.

The Outlaw Audio RR2150 2 channel stereo receiver has it's own built in bass management too, but unfortunately, it would have to be mono bass (like a standard U2 system). However, it does also include pre-outs/main-ins so you could have the option of stereo bass by using the X1's high pass outputs if you so desired, it has a "HT bypass" (processor loop) too. It retails for about the same as the Emotiva and B&K pre-amps, but also includes both a top notch tuner and power amp section as well and just might be the best all around option IMO. Plus, it just flat out looks cool as hell too. :cool:

Edit - just thought of another. The NAD C720BEE stereo receiver has a sub-out, but not really sure what the crossover point is (if any). However, it does have pre-outs/main-ins just like all their current integrateds.

mark russ

10-05-07, 01:05 PM

To add to it: Measuring a center channel 60 degrees off axis is pointless. No one is ever going to be seated in that position. For that matter no one is going to be seated 45 degrees of axis either. As an example of sitting 45 degrees off axis, the couch is located 8' from the center channel, the couch is 16' WIDE and the listener is seated at the end falling off. 60 degrees of axis is much farther out.

This is exactly why off-axis measurements/performance, at least to me anyway, are pretty much irrelevant. I'm always going to be in or at least very close to the dead center "sweet spot". :D

leepalao

10-05-07, 05:06 PM

Thanks all. I looked at Nad's integrates and the only one that I'm interested in is the M3. I'm probably going to use that with the classic threes/U2 system. For what it's worth, I am downgrading my system from the B&W 802D to a classic threes/U2!!! I did hear the 3s, and although it can't compare to 802Ds (not as full), it's 'actually' good enough that I can live with it. I can't say the same with some other bookshelf that I had (B&W 705 (only excellent on a couple songs but edgy on anything else), B&W 805N/S (similiar to 705), Dyn 1.3SE (nice bass and female voice, but a little slow). What I meant is that the 3s plays everything nicely. Plus, believe it or not, the 3s separate the instruments a lot better than the 802D. But I still need a higher end integrated amp to bring the 3s to life, that's why I'm interested in the Nad M3. I heard a similiar setup at my dealer (not nht, but a higher end brands) that use 2 'small' towers x-over at 125hz, 2 passive subs at each corner driven by a 200w stereo amp, and an integrated amp with room correction and it was just superb. The nht setup would be similar and is excellent for an 'ALL AROUND' music system. Classical? check. Jazz? Check. Rock? Check. Pop? Check. R&B? Check. Disco? Check!!! Anyone wants my 802Ds? it's cherry, less than a year, original owner... PM me...

mark russ

10-05-07, 05:20 PM

Just food for thought here, but for what you would be paying for Threes and a U2 with a NAD M3, you are getting real close to being able to take just about the same $$$ and just get a pair of Xds instead. You could easily swing a used set of Xds for that price or lower anyway. ;)

leepalao

10-05-07, 09:54 PM

Well, to be honest, here's what I feel, and I'm sure a lot of people in this 'Audio/Video' hobby will feel the same. The Xds is nice, but it is still a 'complete' system. By that, I mean it is as one. With that in mind, here's the issue. It would be harder to sell because the whole system would have to go. It would be harder to build a HT because of the way it was designed. Upgrade would be a pain. Now, with my new system, IF NHT comes out with a classic 5 or supper classic 5, then the 3s goes, and the rest stay. This is similar to building a PC. Parts are interchangeable and works together whether it's this or that brand. And for the Xds to be complete, it would required 2 subs, which would cost more. Remember that for an Audio system to sound nice, 2 Amp-Subs with gain control is required, whether it is use with bookshelf or tower. One sub just doesn't cut and isn't balance as well. Tower just doesn't provide enough bass either, no matter anyone says (maybe for soft music). Listening to soft rock should have a wide soundstage, making the speakers disappear. At the same time, pop in some European dances, and the 'thump' should be super strong (almost in a club, only lower volume). Now that, is what the 3s/U2 is... But of course, I will sound find out.

Pupton

10-06-07, 12:53 PM

Alimentall

10-06-07, 01:44 PM

leepalao, I'd be interested in more specific impressions with the 802D. I have heard both, just not in the same room. I think the Fours have a slightly better mid/midbass performance than the Threes, but I do think they Threes were more revealing as you mentioned and, may even image a little better. The 802D had a seductive, warm sound, but I don't know if it is as clean and focused as the Three, especially with the U1. The 802D had warm bass, but the U1 really has deep, precise, focused bass.

I wish someone who knows crossovers better than me would take apart Threes and develop some really high-end crossover for them (it would have to be outboard though). I think the Three's drivers and design is good enough for a really exotic outboard crossover, possibly an active one. Threes on DEQX would be amazing. Maybe even better than the existing regular Xd.

leepalao

10-06-07, 03:31 PM

Alimentall, I have NHT classic 4/3/C for my HT. I can say that NHT Classic series are accurate/clean, but for HT, it IS a little on the 'thin' side. Sound is not dynamic enough and does not have the desired impact for movie lovers, but it's very, very, clean. For pure HT alone, 802D/HTM2D fills the whole room with dynamic, and the impact slam the audiences. Same with the Def Tech I used to own (7100sc etc...). Def Tech tweeter is just too edgy and doesn't sound natural. I have used all 3 systems with the Def Tech Ref Sub. I don't watch as much movies, so NHT is good enough for me for the price.

Now for music comparing to the 3s, the 4s is more accurate, and there are more details in the higher frequency, that is more 'twinkle', and the bass is more felt. The separation of instrument is also better. BUT, the 4s has a thinner/leaner sound so it felt like sound wise, it is just not wide enough. The 3s is the total opposite of the 4s. Wider and more open sound (kind of like B&W's), but less accurate. In a way, the 3s will fills the room more with midrange and up. I'm not sure how that would be once a crossover is used though.

The 802D is simply better EXCEPT for the accuracy AND being able to plays music naturally. It is very catchy, gives you a 'WOW' factor, fills the room nicely with big sound, etc... BUT it is harder to separate instrument, because it seems like everything is somewhat blend together. And the most annoying thing about it is that it will sound very good on excellent recording made for female or deep male voice, but sound horrible for a lot of other musics (rocks, dance, etc...) It is kind of edgy as well.

I have the Nad M3 now as well as the 3s/U2. I will compare side by side 802D vs 802D/U2 vs 3s/U2 in the same room and see how that goes. I would like to compare the 4s but that's in my HT room so I'll leave that alone.

Steelheart1948

10-06-07, 07:41 PM

mark russ

10-06-07, 08:54 PM

..., IF NHT comes out with a classic 5 or supper classic 5, then the 3s goes, and the rest stay.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that if I were you. IMO, if it were ever going to happen (a "Five"), it prolly would have by now. Same thing with a true on-wall speaker for surrounds that would match the Three/Four like the L5 does the M5/M6. :(

And for the Xds to be complete, it would required 2 subs, which would cost more. Remember that for an Audio system to sound nice, 2 Amp-Subs with gain control is required, whether it is use with bookshelf or tower. One sub just doesn't cut and isn't balance as well. Tower just doesn't provide enough bass either, no matter anyone says (maybe for soft music). Listening to soft rock should have a wide soundstage, making the speakers disappear. At the same time, pop in some European dances, and the 'thump' should be super strong (almost in a club, only lower volume). Now that, is what the 3s/U2 is... But of course, I will sound find out.

Dude, trust me on this, even a single sub version of Xds would trump a pair of Threes and a U2, even when driven by a M3! :eek:

Besides, you could always add another XdW later. ;)

As for towers not having enough bass except for maybe soft rock, you really should hear a pair of T5s, much less T6s. :D

As for the U2 though, as much as I like it, after the recent price increases, I would now have to strongly recommend a pair of SVS SB12 Pluses now over a U2 set for the $$$. Just look at the driver in it. The new Plus driver is supposed to be close to the old Ultra driver.

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-sb12plus.cfm

You could even get a pair of them in piano gloss black shipped for less now than a U2 retails for plus tax.

mark russ

10-06-07, 09:00 PM

I wish someone who knows crossovers better than me would take apart Threes and develop some really high-end crossover for them (it would have to be outboard though). I think the Three's drivers and design is good enough for a really exotic outboard crossover, possibly an active one. Threes on DEQX would be amazing. Maybe even better than the existing regular Xd.

I know someone who upgraded the stock crossovers in a pair of SB-3s to some much higher dollar aftermarket ones, and that pair of SB-3s will absolutely embarrass a new pair of Threes or M5s! :eek:

mark russ

10-06-07, 09:10 PM

Alimentall, I have NHT classic 4/3/C for my HT. I can say that NHT Classic series are accurate/clean, but for HT, it IS a little on the 'thin' side. Sound is not dynamic enough and does not have the desired impact for movie lovers, but it's very, very, clean.

For pure HT alone, 802D/HTM2D fills the whole room with dynamic, and the impact slam the audiences. Same with the Def Tech I used to own (7100sc etc...). Def Tech tweeter is just too edgy and doesn't sound natural. I have used all 3 systems with the Def Tech Ref Sub. I don't watch as much movies, so NHT is good enough for me for the price.

Then you really should hear the Evolutions. In addition, they are highly accurate too, so you get both. ;)

And the most annoying thing about it is that it will sound very good on excellent recording made for female or deep male voice, but sound horrible for a lot of other musics (rocks, dance, etc...) It is kind of edgy as well.

Evos will rock too. :cool:

I have the Nad M3 now as well as the 3s/U2. I will compare side by side 802D vs 802D/U2 vs 3s/U2 in the same room and see how that goes. I would like to compare the 4s but that's in my HT room so I'll leave that alone.

Since you already have them, you may as well pick up another A1 power amp sooner or later for the true stereo bass that the M3 can give you without having to use the X1's high pass filters.

mark russ

10-06-07, 09:13 PM

Mark et all - I still have all my NHT systems, but I'm helping a couple friends put together an NHT system so I'm just gathering more 'intel' before the purchase - I do like the M3 as well as the NHT controller... just trying to feel out their true objectives so they do not go thru multiple upgrades & $$ (as much as a hobbiest in me would love to play with multiple changes, I'd feel guilty spending their $$ for my enjoyment to tinker :)

The Controller or the M3, either way is literally a can't lose situation. :D

The Controller will IMO do great on 2 channel as well as HT, but virtually any AVR or even separates could be added to the M3 for HT and to drive the center and surrounds. ;)

mark russ

10-06-07, 09:14 PM

If you're not interested in hearing the source as it was originally created, you would be far better off getting any B&W or any Def Tech.

Well said. :D

leepalao

10-07-07, 01:46 AM

NHT Classic 3's and Classic 4's do not editorialize. They are both highly accurate transducers. They simply pass along what they receive. If you're not interested in hearing the source as it was originally created, you would be far better off getting any B&W or any Def Tech.

Hmm.. this is similar to when I was telling my experience with the Nautilus tweeter being edgy and B&W being a limited speaker in music choice compare to Dynaudio's. And that was in a B&W threads so.... I forgot that this is a NHT threads so I don't expect anything different from NHT hard core fans. My findings are good enough since I have own Def Tech, B&W, and now NHT in the same room using the SAME equipments for HT and music for a period of a year or more for each brands, except NHT (2 months). I'm stating what I find so if any NHT fans doesn't like it, I can't help it. All speakers have their strength and weakness and NHT is no different. NHT is just 'better' all around for the price you pay. By the way, the classic 3, to me, seems 'voiced'... The older M5/6 are more like what you describe.

leepalao

10-07-07, 02:03 AM

Since you already have them, you may as well pick up another A1 power amp sooner or later for the true stereo bass that the M3 can give you without having to use the X1's high pass filters.

You know, I ordered the 3s/U2 before I actually found out the Nad M3's capabilities. Right now, I'm letting the M3 burn in overnight, and initial sound through the 802Ds is warm and nice so it's a good sign. With its feature, I don't really want to open the X1 box just yet... Tomorrow, I'll try the M3 with the 3s and let those 3 go for a whole days...... Then 3s/U2 vs 802D begin....

Steelheart1948

10-07-07, 09:47 AM

Alimentall

10-07-07, 10:42 AM

Hmm.. this is similar to when I was telling my experience with the Nautilus tweeter being edgy and B&W being a limited speaker in music choice compare to Dynaudio's. And that was in a B&W threads so.... I forgot that this is a NHT threads so I don't expect anything different from NHT hard core fans.

Well, I don't think anyone will get upset if you like the sound of an 802D over a Three. But if I do understand your comments correctly here:

The 802D is simply better EXCEPT for the accuracy AND being able to plays music naturally. It is very catchy, gives you a 'WOW' factor, fills the room nicely with big sound, etc... BUT it is harder to separate instrument, because it seems like everything is somewhat blend together. And the most annoying thing about it is that it will sound very good on excellent recording made for female or deep male voice, but sound horrible for a lot of other musics (rocks, dance, etc...) It is kind of edgy as well.

it is very similar to my own thoughts actually excep that, for me, accuracy and being able to play music naturally is almost everything important a speaker can do wrapped up in one. IOW, I think you're saying that the B&Ws have "great sound" and the NHTs have, for better or worse, less sound. For most people, I've found that people either prefer a speaker that sounds great or a speaker that has little sound. Most of us would all be in the latter camp (welcome aboard! ;) ), hence the comments.

I do think you're right, the Three is voiced to a certain extent, in the end most speakers have to be to sound good. Or, it's just the best they could do towards accuracy at $800. The Xds are so accurate and free from annoying distortion, it's really amazing. I do think you should listen to a set of those! Yes, it's a system but it sounds like far more than the sum of the parts.

dlfromcanada

10-07-07, 12:09 PM

I read that retail prices are going up 15%, what's your take on that?

Alimentall

10-07-07, 12:20 PM

Eh, I'd rather not talk about it :(

mark russ

10-08-07, 12:37 AM

mark russ

10-08-07, 12:47 AM

You know, I ordered the 3s/U2 before I actually found out the Nad M3's capabilities. Right now, I'm letting the M3 burn in overnight, and initial sound through the 802Ds is warm and nice so it's a good sign. With its feature, I don't really want to open the X1 box just yet... Tomorrow, I'll try the M3 with the 3s and let those 3 go for a whole days...... Then 3s/U2 vs 802D begin....

Just to clarify so that there is no misunderstanding if there is, you will still need the X1 to Eq the W2s with the NAD M3. It's just that the M3 has it's own built in high pass filters for the mains, and you can even use it to do stereo bass too (if you have two A1s) and avoid the X1's high pass outputs by allowing the X1 to do the low pass function to the A1s.

mark russ

10-08-07, 12:48 AM

... respects NHT for making great speakers at a reasonable price.

Well said (again). :D

mark russ

10-08-07, 12:54 AM

The Xds are so accurate and free from annoying distortion, it's really amazing. I do think you should listen to a set of those! Yes, it's a system but it sounds like far more than the sum of the parts.

I agree. Like anything else, they are not perfect (in fact, far from it), but if he ever heard them, I believe it would pretty much invalidate most of his reasons for not wanting them stated here: ;)

Well, to be honest, here's what I feel, and I'm sure a lot of people in this 'Audio/Video' hobby will feel the same. The Xds is nice, but it is still a 'complete' system. By that, I mean it is as one. With that in mind, here's the issue. It would be harder to sell because the whole system would have to go. It would be harder to build a HT because of the way it was designed. Upgrade would be a pain.

mark russ

10-08-07, 01:01 AM

I read that retail prices are going up 15%, what's your take on that?

My take is that NHT should seriously consider becoming at least a partial ID brand, especially since the showroom dealer network does not exactly have full coverage of the country anyway (to say the least).

Just imagine how much more NHT would sell if their products were available to anyone to purchase for approximately 50% of the current retail prices. :eek:

NHT would obviously be making the same amount of $$$, if not even more, and while I realize that service on anything would then pretty much require shipping the product off to CA if someone couldn't fix it themselves, but then again, that's already the case anyway as it is sometimes.

leepalao

10-08-07, 12:08 PM

Mark Russ, you are correct on the X1. I still need it to operate the various adjustments for the lower frequency.

Alimentall/Mark, I haven't heard the Xds yet, but I don't think I will anytime soon. Lots of dealers just don't have that setup other than the classics. But I did hear a similiar active bookshelf that is very clear, basically digital like sound... $5000/pair at a dealer and although the sound is very clear/accurate with no hiss at all, it's just too 'digital' for me.

Regarding the X1 high pass X-over, I have to say I was not impressed. The sound was somehow compress or flat... But using the high pass from the Nad M3 was the way it 'should' sound..... I'll have to let the system run for a while to really give the 3s a fair deal (before I started doing the comparison), because as of now, the 802Ds with the U2 is just too good and powerful. I'll post some pictures.

leepalao

10-08-07, 12:20 PM

Here are some pictures of the setup:
The system:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2002/1511027763_626dc0d667_b.jpg

A closer look at the components used for this comparison:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2264/1511883760_6a6aaf310b_b.jpg

mark russ

10-08-07, 01:42 PM

Alimentall/Mark, I haven't heard the Xds yet, but I don't think I will anytime soon. Lots of dealers just don't have that setup other than the classics.

Same here. My local dealer is virtually right across the street from my office, literally within walking distance anyway, and he does not stock Xds, or the Controller/Power5/2 either (unless he has just started very recently). He did have a pair of Xds for a while, and even reluctantly conceded that they topped a pair of Revel Performa F52s at about the same price (and that's not even taking into consideration that you would still have to buy power amps and speaker cables which are included with the Xds for the Revels), but he sent them back, and he never did have the NHT electronics at any point at all.

However, I'm more than sure he will very happily order any of them for you if you pre-pay for them in advance, and if someone can't demo them and has to order them anyway, then why should they they have to pay a dealer his marked up cut? Which was part of the reason for my comments here:

My take is that NHT should seriously consider becoming at least a partial ID brand, especially since the showroom dealer network does not exactly have full coverage of the country anyway (to say the least).

Just imagine how much more NHT would sell if their products were available to anyone to purchase for approximately 50% of the current retail prices. :eek:

NHT would obviously be making the same amount of $$$, if not even more, and while I realize that service on anything would then pretty much require shipping the product off to CA if someone couldn't fix it themselves, but then again, that's already the case anyway as it is sometimes.

Regarding the X1 high pass X-over, I have to say I was not impressed. The sound was somehow compress or flat... But using the high pass from the Nad M3 was the way it 'should' sound.....

Yeah, that seems to be pretty much the general consensus about the X1's high pass filters being the Evo sub's Achilles heel, but, there are ways around it (such as the M3). ;)

I'll have to let the system run for a while to really give the 3s a fair deal (before I started doing the comparison), because as of now, the 802Ds with the U2 is just too good and powerful. I'll post some pictures.

I still think you ought to at least try the M5s or M6s. IMO they are both very dynamic and accurate at the same time.

Nice looking set up BTW, but when auditioning the speakers, either the B&Ws or the Threes, they will sound better if not right up beside of the other like they are as they do in effect create a boundary for each other. You are literally crippling the Threes soundstaging ability, which is prolly it's strongest suit.

Alimentall

10-08-07, 01:46 PM

My only suggestion, other than using the M3 for high pass filtering, is put the Threes right in front of the B&Ws when you listen to them if you don't.

Alimentall

10-08-07, 01:51 PM

If I were NHT, I'd have special pricing for dealers that display electronics and Xd vs those that don't care. On the other hand, I'd probably open up NHT branded stores (like an Apple Store) where there isn't a good dealer. Internet direct is an interesting model, but I don't think it's *the* model. People *love* to shop.

mark russ

10-08-07, 02:05 PM

Since it seems like it's time to once again with the recent discussion, just bumping up what I feel is one of the the best (it not THE posts of this whole thread so far:

Here is my .02, a long time NHT user/fan and a Audio/HT NUT with compulsive upgraditus :)

The M6 is a very accurate speaker that is not really "voiced" as a music speaker first, but has very even overall balance. It has great flexibility, and placement can and does effect the sound greatly as it does with any speaker. The adjustable crossover can help though it ways other speakers cannot. It is a very accurate music speaker with no artificial bump to make it sound better on the first listen. It will simply produce what it is feed.

The SB3 music series was "voiced" for music first, had a warmer overall tone and was actually not very accurate in the upper bass/lower midrange. This sounded good though on first listen until you realize that the sound is "voiced" for its target audience. Female vocals are rich and warm. It can sound a little "tubby" after awhile especially when you A/B it against a top grade monitor.

The Classic 3 is a compromise between the two, although it is still "voiced" for a music speaker. It will not play as loud as the M6 and will not have the impact for HT. At moderate volume it may sound better with music, depending on placement of course. The Classic 3 is much more balanced than the SB3, but not more than the M6.

The M6 is simply a monitor that to some will sound a little forward, the Classic 3 a warmer sounding music speaker that gets most things right. Both excellent in there own right.

The wildcard for me is that the Evolution system is just that, a system. The L5 is MADE to be wall mounted and will likely sound much better than an Absolute Zero/Classic 2 that is wall mounted. The Classic series does not have a good surround option. The Evo subs are clearly in a different class also. Lastly, the M5/M6 flexibility will work better in more rooms IMHO as the more accurate sound, but not always the best "liked" sound. A Multi-channel Evo system works better in my HT for placement and accuracy.

I have had T6's/M6's in My HT three different times over the last 2 years. I also have tried the T5's, M5's, SB3's, Monitor Audio GR60's and Gr10's, Silver 9i's, 5i's, 4i's and 3i's, Von Schwiekert VR4jr.s, VR2's, LCR15's and Vr1's. Paradigm 100's, 40's, and 20's. NHT 3.3's 2.9's and 2.5's. Rockets even!! I am forgetting some too :)

I do like trying different things, that it surely part of the fun of this hobby:D

mark russ

10-08-07, 02:09 PM

I'd probably open up NHT branded stores (like an Apple Store) where there isn't a good dealer.

I'm not sure how that would work. I know it seems like there is a Bose store in every mall, but they run a lot of commercials and advertisements and just flat out have the brand name recognition to pull it off, unfortuantely. :(:mad:

Alimentall

10-08-07, 02:27 PM

Well, you'd have to run it as though it were a regular HT shop. I have a concept, just don't want to say it out loud.

mark russ

10-08-07, 02:40 PM

Just to further clarify my previous comments about NHT ought to be ID, if someone wants or needs a dealer, and would be willing to pay the premium for the extra service that goes along with it, then by all means, I believe they should have that option.

But in cases like my local dealer where if you wanted to buy Xds or NHT electronics that would have to be ordered by him without being heard first anyway, then I think the consumer should have the option if they so choose to just order it themselves direct from NHT at wholesale price (or maybe even a little above) plus shipping charges without having to pay the dealer for ordering it for them.

Another thing, remember how Allen said that there was no NHT dealer whatsoever in Savannah for example. :(

Alimentall

10-09-07, 09:12 PM

Oh c'mon! That makes no sense. Besides, if you think of it this way, dealers get a "bulk" discount. Why would someone get as good a deal as I do for buying $2000 worth of product once every 10 years (or maybe once in a lifetime) when I buy 100 times that much every year? It's just how business works. Think you'll ever buy hamburger for as little as McDonald's or cheeze for as little as Pizza Hut? You'd be surprised how much leverage a big business has that a single consumer simply doesn't. Besides, that's why I always try to explain to people that ID isn't as big of a deal as they *imagine* it to be. They may sell at a discount, but not the same discount they'd give dealers if they went that route. They only *partly* cut out the middle man, no matter what they claim, because they *become* the middle man with lots more overhead than they would have had without dealers to do their marketing, product support, delivery, etc.

mark russ

10-09-07, 09:41 PM

While I fully understand your agenda and direct vested financial interest in this that would obviously illicit a response from you such as that above, that logic simply wouldn't apply to the specific dealer and situation I was referring to, but at any rate, at approx. 40 to 50% discounts on NHT's already good to excellent valued products, trust me on this John, ID orders would soon collectively make yours a mere drop in the bucket. ;)

Look at the brands who have done extremely well with this model, such as Outlaw, SVS, AV123, etc. (some of which prolly actually outsell NHT). Now just imagine how well NHT would do if they could offer similar pricing. :cool:

Besides, if NHT makes the same (or potentially even a little more, as you yourself pointed out in your very own words) on each product while still saving the consumer a significant percentage of the retail $$$, why should they care? :p

Alimentall

10-09-07, 10:35 PM

Besides, if NHT makes the same (or potentially even a little more, as you yourself pointed out in your very own words) on each product while still saving the consumer a significant percentage of the retail $$$, why should they care? :p

Well, if they lost all their dealers to, say, B&W or Paradigm, that might suck for them, for one thing. But I don't think you truly understand how cost saving it is to have dealers for the company and how very often it is for the consumer themselves. Maybe some day *all* speakers will be sold over the internet somehow instead of through dealers. But that's a long way off because most people simply don't like taking those kind of risks based on 50 different opinions. I've had 5 or 6 people come in and trade their ID stuff for NHT and felt "ripped off" by their own choices. I've had hundreds of people who came in wanting one thing, but left with much better gear for what they needed. They "educated" themselves on the internet and would have made expensive mistakes had we not gone through everything with them. I don't think dealers are going away anytime soon, nor are retail stores. But I can see why you'd have a vested interest in dreaming about it ;)

mark russ

10-09-07, 11:05 PM

But I don't think you truly understand how cost saving it is ... for the consumer themselves.

In your very own words: :D

Oh c'mon! That makes no sense.

I've had 5 or 6 people come in and trade their ID stuff for NHT and felt "ripped off" by their own choices.

Sorry, but once again, that logic simply would not apply here at all since there obviously wouldn't be anybody coming in to trade NHT speakers they bought over the internet for other NHT speakers in a store. Unless, that is, you would be trying to get them to bring the NHTs in and trade them for B&Ws or Paradigms. :p

But I can see why you'd have a vested interest in dreaming about it ;)

At least you got that much right. You may find this hard to believe, but I'd much rather keep money in my own pocket than to give it to my local dealer for doing something I could very easily do myself, and I'm sure more here would agree with that than not. ;)

Furthermore, you still haven't addressed the clear majority of this country who simply don't have a NHT dealer within a reasonable distance. Well, except for your proprietary "concept" of opening up something like a "Bose store" for NHT in those areas which you "just don't want to say it out loud" that "you'd have to run it as though it were a regular HT shop" that is. :o

Alimentall

10-10-07, 01:20 AM

Well, believe what you want then, I'm not going to waste another several pages going back and forth on this subject, except to say that's not how any company would do things *ever*.

mark russ

10-10-07, 01:32 AM

Well, believe what you want then, I'm not going to waste another several pages going back and forth on this subject,

Your unconditional surrender is duly noted and accepted. :D ;):p:eek::cool:

DekPM19

10-10-07, 04:38 PM

I agree with Mark if NHT was ID think what the cost of a M6 would be. What was list $600.00 less 40% that would make it $360.00. Plus most places no tax just add shipping and I am going on the high side here 50 bucks. So for $410.00 shipped to your house for a 30 day in home trial what could beat it. I mean I paid a little over $300.00 per m6 for used (Brand new looking) but used. And if truth be told I think the discounts could even be more like 45 to 50% off.
Allen

Alimentall

10-10-07, 04:49 PM

MusicFirst

10-10-07, 05:08 PM

Considering bass quality and output ONLY, which would be better in the bass dept. the Classic Fours, or the B6's that would sit underneath the M6's? Seems both of their -10dB specs. are around 22Hz. It is curious to me that the Sealed B6's would roll off so quickly. Don't sealed alignments usually have a more gradual roll-off? On paper you would think four 12" drivers compared to two 10" drivers would be a "no-brainer" but as far as depth goes anyway, it does not seem that the B6's have that much of an advantage. John and/or Mark please describe what you think the differences are.

If you remember my Classic Four posts, this is mostly for Bass output for music, while also supplementing bass for HT, as I will be using a Sunfire Signature EQ sub to cover 50Hz and below for HT, and just run the mains "full range" for my VERY occasional (in fact rare) music listening sessions.

Thanks,
MF

mark russ

10-10-07, 05:13 PM

MusicFirst

10-10-07, 05:22 PM

B6s! And by a wide margin at that. They will literally flutter your pant's legs. ;)

Also, keep in mind that there is a -3 Db 20 Hz mod for the X1 at the price of a little output, but for music only, I'd just leave 'em alone unless you listen to a lot of pipe organ or something.
I did not realize there was such a mod. I am trying to "simplify", and use as little floor space as possible too. If I could possibly eliminate the Sunfire sub. I could save even more money and space.

How does one go about getting this mod. done? I am hoping I can find some B6 modules somewhere though to make this even a possibility.

Thanks much,
MF

mark russ

10-10-07, 05:25 PM

Think more like 25% off, plus or minus. Remember that ID drives a company's prices up, shipping, returns, personnel costs, everything goes up and sales would likely drop. I don't want to get sucked into this argument but think of used car prices. There is "retail", "private party" and "trade-in". Trade-in is wholesale, private party would be ID. it's just how it is. You could save some money, perhaps, but not nearly as much as is imagined, and you lose a place to demo, a place to trade-in, etc. I just sold a pair of Threes with two post dated checks to a regular customer. He can't get that on line. He also trades in regularly. Can't do that on line really. Retailers aren't going anywhere. We sold the M6 for $499/pr. ID, maybe $399-$449. Maybe. But we help our customers in so many other ways. Not everyone does, of course, but people tell us *regularly* "I could have gotten these for a little less elsewhere, but I want you guys around".

Uhh, even non-ID brands such as NHT still have shipping and returns. ;)

SVS' profit margin for example, is not even close to that. Before Ed talked me into getting dual PB12 Pluses instead, I was planning on getting dual PB 13 Ultras when they had their special "presale" price before they started shipping, plus an additional 5% off if you either bought two of them and/or was a repeat customer. I had a 10% coupon in hand I've been holding to and wanted to use it instead of the 5% off I would have automatically gotten, and Ron told me that they simply couldn't do the 10% off with the presale price or they would have actually been losing money on it.

Besides, all you have to do is look at a PB13 Ultra compared to about the same price of either a single U1 or a U2 set, and you will clearly see where the retail price mark up hurts NHT in this instance. However, if dual W1s. A1s, and a X1 were about $1300 plus shipping for the set, ...

mark russ

10-10-07, 05:26 PM

I did not realize there was such a mod. I am trying to "simplify", and use as little floor space as possible too. If I could possibly eliminate the Sunfire sub. I could save even more money and space.

How does one go about getting this mod. done? I am hoping I can find some B6 modules somewhere though to make this even a possibility.

Thanks much,
MF

Call NHT's 800 #, and ask for Matt. He will set it up. :)

MusicFirst

10-10-07, 05:32 PM

Call NHT's 800 #, and ask for Matt. He will set it up. :)
Thanks Mark, but first I have to see if I can even get my hands on some B6's at a decent price to make it a possibility.

MF

Alimentall

10-10-07, 05:38 PM

Uhh, even non-ID brands such as NHT still have shipping and returns. ;)

That was for Allen's benefit, I'm not expecting you to understand the realities of the audio business.

mark russ

10-10-07, 05:39 PM

Thanks Mark, but first I have to see if I can even get my hands on some B6's at a decent price to make it a possibility.

MF

You don't see 'em come up very often, and they were the most expensive Evo sub for some reason. A W1 and a P6 combined costs less than a B6 did (at the old prices that is since the B6 has been discontinued). :eek:

Alimentall

10-10-07, 05:39 PM

mark russ

10-10-07, 05:40 PM

That was for Allen's benefit, I'm not expecting you to understand the realities of the audio business.

OK then, explain the reality to me. How do you receive NHT product, and where do you have to send returns to, China? :D

Alimentall

10-10-07, 05:50 PM

Alimentall

10-10-07, 05:54 PM

You don't see 'em come up very often, and they were the most expensive Evo sub for some reason. A W1 and a P6 combined costs less than a B6 did (at the old prices that is since the B6 has been discontinued). :eek:

The B6 was more complicated to build. And it was only about $150 more for B6s vs U1s and pedestals. Should be able to find B6s for <$1500 used and they're *well* worth that.

MusicFirst

10-10-07, 05:55 PM

It would definitely eliminate the Sunfire! :)
Cool, good to know!

Thanks,
MF

mark russ

10-10-07, 05:57 PM

Well, we almost never return anything to NHT. Customers hear the product in advance, so they rarely return it. On the rare occasion they do, they return it to us and we lose, not NHT. Why is it so hard to understand outsourcing?

Well based on that same logic, NHT wouldn't be having too many ID returns either. ;)

But when you do have to return something, what do you do? And you entirely avoided the question of where you get your product from. :p

mark russ

10-10-07, 05:58 PM

Should be able to find B6s for <$1500 used

Good luck is all I can say! ;)

and they're *well* worth that.

Agreed! :D

Alimentall

10-10-07, 05:58 PM

Like I said, you either don't understand or simply don't want to for entertainment value and I'm not feeling humored lately.

mark russ

10-10-07, 06:00 PM

Like I said, you either don't understand or simply don't want to for entertainment value and I'm not feeling humored lately.

Giving up again already? :D

DekPM19

10-10-07, 07:56 PM

The value in it would be to make the M6 into a ture $600.00 ID speaker. Them it would really be a killer speaker.

Really though John, the only lost NHT would have if they went ID would be you. We all know you carry that NHT torch high and you belive in the speakers and understand their place in the market place(Most Times - Kidding of course)

Allen

mark russ

10-10-07, 08:16 PM

Allen, just curious, but if you wanted to buy some brand new NHT product, wouldn't you have to order it from somewhere anyway if you didn't want to drive a ways to get it yourself?

Alimentall

10-10-07, 09:49 PM

The value in it would be to make the M6 into a ture $600.00 ID speaker. Them it would really be a killer speaker.

They can't even afford to sell it to us for that little and even if they could, they'd still need to sell it for more to the public to cover their added costs.

Really though John, the only lost NHT would have if they went ID would be you. We all know you carry that NHT torch high and you belive in the speakers and understand their place in the market place(Most Times - Kidding of course)

Well, I appreciate that. I do think that ID has a limited market and will for quite awhile. I think NHT could and should be selling 5-10 times its current rate, it has just dropped the ball in marketing and service (and fleshing out the line). It would be nearly impossible to achieve those goals via ID.

I do think though, if they were smart, they'd sell the product direct at regular price to those that can't find it, maybe with free shipping or something, rather than sell through people like Amazon that offer *no* added value. I don't understand why they would do that rather than simply selling it themselves. My only disagreement with Mark is that they can't sell for less than retail without alienating their dealer base. Sonos understand this, at least, pretty much. You can buy from them or us, but if you buy from us locally, we can help you set it up or swap modules or whatever.

NHT4LIFE

10-11-07, 09:26 AM

My only disagreement with Mark is that they can't sell for less than retail without alienating their dealer base.

That was a joke right? Because you two can't agree on much of anything anymore :D

Oh them were the good old days when mark was a true NHT fanboy too :p

Just pullin' your chains fellas,as I enjoy the bickering.I have been gone too long,missed this thread so....I'm baaaaack

James Elvick

10-11-07, 10:52 AM

NHT4LIFE

10-11-07, 11:16 AM

FYI-

I have been going back and forth in my room with M5's and M6's. The room is pretty large, 20 X 18 with 10ft ceilings AND opens to other rooms :)

The M6's seems to have a little more detail and play louder w/o strain. The M5's are smoother and don't sound as hot. For jazz I like the M6, for other things the M5 :)

The M6's have won out for me and am selling the M5's. There is an ad in the classified section too. $200 each and are in mint condition with all original packing etc. I have 3 total.

Thanks
James

you wanna trade all three for a pair of classic three's? I need a damn center channel...like yesterday. Thr Three's have less than 100 hours on them

mark russ

10-11-07, 11:45 AM

Oh them were the good old days when mark was a true NHT fanboy too :p

One thing no one can ever call me is a true NHT fanboy. Especially you of all people, remember way back early on this thread when you got all bent out of shape cause I stated I liked the Revel M12s better than the Threes in a direct A/B head to head comparision. ;) :p

BTW, it's good to see you back. :cool:

mark russ

10-11-07, 11:48 AM

FYI-

I have been going back and forth in my room with M5's and M6's. The room is pretty large, 20 X 18 with 10ft ceilings AND opens to other rooms :)

The M6's seems to have a little more detail and play louder w/o strain. The M5's are smoother and don't sound as hot. For jazz I like the M6, for other things the M5 :)

The M6's have won out for me and am selling the M5's. There is an ad in the classified section too. $200 each and are in mint condition with all original packing etc. I have 3 total.

Thanks
James

Someone should be all over these. This is a no-brainer! I would myself, but I simply don't need 'em. As it is, I have a pair each of M5s and P5s that I'm not currently using. :o

I can also vouch for James as a seller, cause I have bought stuff from him before. :cool:

mark russ

10-11-07, 11:50 AM

you wanna trade all three for a pair of classic three's? I need a damn center channel...like yesterday. Thr Three's have less than 100 hours on them

Hell, I'd make that deal with you myself James, for a brand new in factory sealed unopened box pair of Threes at that! C'mon on, you know you wanna try out the Classic series. :D

NHT4LIFE

10-11-07, 11:56 AM

One thing no one can ever call me is a true NHT fanboy. Especially you of all people, remember way back early on this thread when you got all bent out of shape cause I stated I liked the Revel M12s better than the Threes in a direct A/B head to head comparision. ;) :p

BTW, it's good to see you back. :cool:

I have also went with some Revels as well:F12's
After hearing the M22's I can honestly say they are superior IMHO in most every way to the Three's,but at the MSRP of $2000,they better have been. ;)

Missed the half-off sale on those or i would have the Three's in the BR instead of as surrounds.Thansk for the welcome back,I look forward to hearing your arguements....errrr....input :p:p:p:D

mark russ

10-11-07, 12:08 PM

I have also went with some Revels as well:F12's
After hearing the M22's I can honestly say they are superior IMHO in most every way to the Three's,but at the MSRP of $2000,they better have been. ;)

Missed the half-off sale on those or i would have the Three's in the BR instead of as surrounds.Thansk for the welcome back,I look forward to hearing your arguements....errrr....input :p:p:p:D

No argument here. The M22s are incredible, and especially all the more so if you got them for less than $1000 like I did. ;):p:D

The F12s are a fine speaker too though.

BTW, about time for a screen name change now, isn't it? ;)

NHT4LIFE

10-11-07, 12:22 PM

No argument here. The M22s are incredible, and especially all the more so if you got them for less than $1000 like I did. ;):p:D

The F12s are a fine speaker too though.

BTW, about time for a screen name change now, isn't it? ;)

No NO...Because I still own NHT speakers man,and considering that my ex threw my SB-3's and those look like crap I will most likely have them forever :p:D

PM me if you want to sell any of your NHT stuff nice and CHEAP !! :D

I need a center bad bad bad,you got one?NHT or Revel I dont care.As long is it is CHEAP :p:p

mark russ

10-11-07, 01:14 PM

I may be trying for a C32 to match my M22s, and if I get it, I will have a C12 I can sell, which will match your F12s perfectly. :cool:

NHT4LIFE

10-11-07, 01:39 PM

I may be trying for a C32 to match my M22s, and if I get it, I will have a C12 I can sell, which will match your F12s perfectly. :cool:

Defo keep me in mind for that.I will be waiting in the wings as I have checked A-gon,Vid-gon,ebay,etc. and noone has one used for sale.Now I really really hope you get that C32,and sooner rather than later :D

I see there is a C32 on A-gon now and it $ O.B.O. and the seller has a lot of feedback that is positive.Just buy the dang thing Mark...You know you want to !

Bone215

10-11-07, 09:55 PM

I am quite curious about the xd's and was really hoping for either a comment or opportunity to discuss my question about active speakers, but, it appears my previous thread was ignored.
I previously posted,
how much difference between what the NHT XDS does and what the JBL LSR4326P and LSR4328P do?
both are active
both allow you to "shape" the response
are these two going up the "same mountain" so to speak but following slightly different trails?
any one with experience in listening to both?

I am quite interested in the similarities and differences in the approach to (my limited technical abilities) appears to be a similar approach to speakers?
Comment please?
Thanks.
Bone

Alimentall

10-11-07, 11:10 PM

Well, there's a pretty huge difference in theory. The drivers in the Xd are more exotic, they're a 3-way design, they have much more powerful DSP correction, steeper crossovers, more exotic cabinetry for starters. But powered digital studio monitors may be a good alternative to many conventional speakers.

MusicFirst

10-12-07, 02:09 PM

Well, I got the Classic Fours last night. I only had time to listen to them for a few songs, I did use some of my favorites that I use when critically listen to speakers though.

On the positve, the Fours have a HUGE soundstage! I was actually really amazed. Some reviewers have likened it to electrostatics, which I thought might have been a little over dramatic. But I have to say, even though it has been a long time since I have heard some Martin Logans, I'd have to say that while not quite that expansive, the Fours soundstage is pretty damn incredible for a direct radiating speaker. Fact is, the soundstage was similar in size to the Def. Tech. Bipolar 7002's I demo'd a week or two ago. However, imaging was FAR better than the 7002's, in fact it really is not even comparable. Imaging of the 7002's in my opinion is just way to diffuse.

Since we are on to imaging, there again, I thought the Fours are fantastic. Though I have to say I like the way the M6's image slightly better, I think it is more precise. However, that may be more of a factor of the smaller soundstage of the M6.
The one thing that is keeping going back to the M6's though is the detail and clarity of the highs. I think it is quite a bit better than the Fours. In fact I kept thinking of that review by Michael Fremer, and thought what the hell was he hearing when he said they sounded "cool and metallic". To me they are much more on the "warm" side, especially when compared to the M6's.
I am going to do some more listening, but my gut tells me that I am going to want to stay with the more detailed and clear sound, and better imaging (IMO) of the M6's. Sure I'd like to have that huge soundstage, but I guess you can't have everything.

I have yet to really test the dynamics of the Fours with something like a loud action flick, but I will try to do that too.

MF