The Four *can* image a little more precisely than the M6 but usually you need really good setup and/or room treatments to do this. The wide dispersion can get in the way at times. The Fours are a bit softer in the treble, but not by as much as it seems. But the M6 tweeter is a phenomenal tweeter, one of the best available. The big thing I like about the Fours is the cleaner upper midrange, at least at less than ridiculous volumes. There are times when a CD will sound better on the M6 and another will sound better on the Four. As you said, you can't have everything (unless maybe you go for Xds and they're you probably have, well, at least 90% of everything).
Interesting, I did not know the tweeter in the M6 was one of the best available, it certainly sounds like it though!

MF

Interesting, I did not know the tweeter in the M6 was one of the best available, it certainly sounds like it though!

Well, IMO, of course and it is measurably fantastic. I should say "aluminum tweeter" as there are, some more exotic Be and diamond and ceramic tweeters that are better in some ways. And there are some that will play louder. But few that are as good at what they do in their application. I've heard aluminum tweeters on $60K/pr speakers that are obviously not as good as what is in the M6 (or Absolute Zero).

Also, keep in mind, I didn't say "one of the most expensive". Expensive and good are rarely related! I asked, Jack, I believe, once about what the SEAS tweeter in the Xd did better than the M6 tweeter and he said that it was mainly just that the SEAS drivers were more consistent from unit to unit and that is often what you pay for with more expensive models - tight tolerance.

Huh, one time, one of my M6's blew a tweeter and a couple of caps in the cross-over, but I was just playing it at about an average of 75-85dB at the time. They were only about four months old at the time too. I was feeding them with 400w from a Sunfire Sig. amp, so I am pretty sure I was not sending a clipped signal. :)

Anyway, you never know.
MF

Mmmm, that sounds like the amp went momentarily nuts. I've done that same thing too, but the culprit was the amp in those cases. I've *never* blown an NHT driver just playing music, even at stupid volumes. Usually every blown driver has an interesting story behind it ;)

I've heard aluminum tweeters on $60K/pr speakers that are obviously not as good as what is in the M6 (or Absolute Zero).



I replaced my rear Absolute Zero surrounds with the Classic 3's and frankly I think the Absolue Zero's sound livelier and possibly do a better job as surrounds than the 3's. I always thought the tweeters were the same in the 3's and AZs. I guess that's why they sound so different.

Could be, though, "lively" is actually generally a bad thing for a speaker. Usually that means it's adding something. What I like about the Three's tweeter is that I really can't hear it, unlike some very expensive tweeters that make a big production about their existence.

Alimental, look like you're an expert on this. If anyone else who heard both system wants to add in, please do so. I'm thinking I 'may' go this new direction.

Right now, I have for HT: Classic 4, C, 3 with Def Tech Ref Sub.
System is good, but not dynamic/strong enough for my taste for HT.

How would this compare to: M6, M6, M6, M6, M6 with Def Tech Ref Sub? Price wise, it is not that much different. If this is good, I 'may' sell the classic and go that direction.

Let me know if the improvement is worth it for that Evolution setup. I want my HT to be as close as possible to a 'REAL' theater.... without breaking the bank.

By the way, so far, the Classic 4s is a much better speakers to listen to than the Classic 3s. The 3s/U2 lost to the B&W 802D. The 4s, however..... is BETTER than the 802D. I'm using Nad M3 for both. Full review will be ready soon.

Alimental, look like you're an expert on this..

Now where did he get an idea like that? :p

There are very very few who know NHT as well as John,he is top notch in every sense.

If mark doesnt hurry up and find that "other brand" center I may just grab a NHT Classic C3.I finally decided to throw one of my beaten up(cosmetics only) SB-3's into the mix for center channel duties and man oh man,it isnt doing bad at all.Much better than I expected.

I guess you could consider my 5.1 system a "mutt system" since it looks like this:

Front:Revel F12's
Rears:NHT Classic Three's
Center:NHT SB-3
Sub:HSU STF-2

John...You have any demo or used Classic C3 centers?

Hey Guys,

I've got a bit of a problem. One thing I did not mention about the Fours that I got is the condition of the bottom finish of the Fours, and the very messed up screw inserts for the plastic bases that connect to them. I'm just going to paste the content of me describing it to my dealer:

"first thing I noticed was on the bottom of both speakers, in various places there is some type glue like substance that will not come off through regular means. ie, rubbing with my finger to try to roll it up, and/or using a soft cloth with water. There also is in a couple of places, scratch marks on the bottom. Both of these were noticed directly after careful removal of the packaging (over the years I have done this dozens and dozens of times), before I even set the speakers on their bottoms, as the packaging opens from the bottom.

One speaker had many more small swirling scratches then just the one I originally saw. The glue like substance, looks to be some type of contact cement used to hold the screw inserts into the bottom of the speaker. There are actually quite a few places where this glue exists."

"I started to put the supplied bases on them. This is where I really can't believe just how bad the screw inserts in the bottom of the Fours really are. Being a technician in quite a few fields over the past 20+ years (including audio/video in Televison Broadcasting), I have years and years of experience of the delicate nature of putting such things together. The Fours inserts are HORRIBLE. Even when ever so delicately screwing in the base stands into the bottom of the Fours, two of them on one speaker and one of them on the other) cross-threaded and eventually stripped most of the 'lead -like' threads of the inserts. I had to delicately remove so much of the stripped thread from the insert it was unbelieveable, just so I could somewhat get the screws to hold. Then, I couldn't believe it but the same type of thing happened with FIVE of the 8 spikes that screw into those plastic base plates.

The glue like substance, looks to be some type of contact cement used to hold the screw inserts into the bottom of the speaker. You can see by the pictures of the screws all the soft "lead -like" threads that came out of the inserts. And that is just a VERY small part of what came out. Two out of the four plastic stands could not even be tightened to the bottom of the Fours as a result of these really bad screw inserts."

So after all this, my dealer is saying that this is not that unusual, for companies to "skimp" on paying attention to the bottom finish. And it sounds like he is saying it's no bing deal and I should just deal with it. In any case, is this how NHT Four bottoms usually are?
I really want to get replacements (or optimally, a refund), because I can't see trying to sell these speakers because at the very least those plastic bases cannot be tightened to the bottom of the Fours. Whose going to want to buy speakers with bases that can't be tightened?

FWIW, here is part of the reply from my dealer:

"I can however promise you it seems to be focused on high glass companies that use plastic/resin material (Gershman, Def Tech, etc). I guess they view the bottom's as "not important". Meaning, the top and sides have 6 coats of finish and hand polished with Chines labor while the bottom simply gets the 1st coat. If they finished the bottom to perfection, that would mean they would be more expensive. In other words, I bet 20 pair of NHT Classic 4's yield identical scuffed, scratched results (to various degrees). I am emailing my local manufactures NHT rep to see what his pair of demo 4's look like. I will let you know what he says. Personally, it would not bother me at all and having experience with other brands, I would assume it was "normal". The threading issue is certainly not ideal and sounded like a massive pain. If I read it correctly, it sounded like you unfortunately were the screw taping device."

SOO, what is your guys take on this? Can you offer any advice at all?

Thanks,
MF

Your dealer has never seen NHT Fours? The bottom of the Fours are pretty ugly as they expect it will never be seen beyond the first day.

I've never experienced problems with the bases on the Fours, which doesn't mean there can't be problems, but I've never had problems.

How would this compare to: M6, M6, M6, M6, M6 with Def Tech Ref Sub? Price wise, it is not that much different. If this is good, I 'may' sell the classic and go that direction.

This is a matter of subjectivity and environment. In some ways, the M6 is better, though the Three/Four are more resolving and soundstage better. The M6 sounds better in a bad environment than a Three/Four will. The M6 will play louder, but the Three/Four, IMO, sound less "busy" and more resolving and natural up through very high volumes at which point, the M6 keeps on going. The M6 is a bit more forgiving of bad sounding DVDs and video sources though. I have L5 on walls for movies and Fours for music in the bedroom.

By the way, so far, the Classic 4s is a much better speakers to listen to than the Classic 3s. The 3s/U2 lost to the B&W 802D. The 4s, however..... is BETTER than the 802D. I'm using Nad M3 for both. Full review will be ready soon.

Now I'm curious :)

Your dealer has never seen NHT Fours? The bottom of the Fours are pretty ugly as they expect it will never be seen beyond the first day.

I've never experienced problems with the bases on the Fours, which doesn't mean there can't be problems, but I've never had problems.
He does not stock them at all.

I still find it weird that there would be so much contact cement (or something like it that maybe helps hold the screw inserts in place) on the bottom. I can understand the finish not being as pristine as the parts of the finish that can be seen, but contact cement that really can't be removed, that seems to be a bit much. I actually just returned a pair of Def Tech. 7002's and their bottoms were pristine by comparison.

Anyway, even beyond that, what REALLY bothers me is that the plastic bases cannot be tightened down to the bottom of the Fours because many of the screw inserts are stripped out. How am I supposed to sell something like that in the used market?

MF

FWIW the bottom of my 4's (Center and AZ's) were finished on the bottom just as nicely as they were on all other sides. All the screws and spikes went in with normal effort, none stripped or were cross threaded.
I would say this is not normal for NHT or the Fours.

FWIW the bottom of my 4's (Center and AZ's) were finished on the bottom just as nicely as they were on all other sides. All the screws and spikes went in with normal effort, none stripped or were cross threaded.
I would say this is not normal for NHT or the Fours.
Thanks, I appreciate the input. that's what I would have expected anyway. I mean if Def. Tech. can provide a decent finish on the bottom, you would expect NHT to step up to the plate.
For $2000, you would at least expect them not to have a bunch of contact cement on the bottom, much less screw inserts that don't work.

MF

MF, contact NHT and see if they can help you. I'm not sure how easy it is to replace the inserts, I've never had to do it.

Finally, a picture of an Evo sub driver. :p

Looks to be maybe about the equivalent of the SVS NSD driver. ;)

He does not stock them at all.

Imagine that, a NHT dealer who doesn't stock something, and isn't really much help after the sell anyway since any defective product will have to be shipped back to CA:

At NHT we are doing our best to streamline our warranty and non-warranty repair services for our customers. Returns for repair are often called "RA's". Returns can be a slow and frustrating process, so we have outlined the most efficient way to get a product serviced and repaired by NHT. We do not have any authorized service centers in the US. Some of our dealer may be able to repair a non-warranty product, but NHT will only stand by repairs done by our company in Benicia, CA.

Important: Do not ship a product for service without a return authorization number. It will "NOT" be accepted, and NHT will not be held responsible for loss or damage.

Warranty Repair: For warranty service, you must have a copy of your original receipt of purchase. To obtain a return authorization number (RA), please fill out our "End User RA Form", and fax it to (707) 747-1252 along with your receipt of purchase. No fax? You can also send the RA form as an email attachment to repair@nhthifi.com. Be sure to include your full contact info, product type, serial #, and reason for the RA. Our customer support staff will contact you within 24 hours to give you an RA number, shipping information, and answer any questions you may have regarding the process. Bear in mind that all electronic repairs (crossovers, amplifiers, powered subwoofer amps, and controllers) are only covered for 1 year. If you do not have a receipt of purchase, you will have to use the non-warranty repair process.

from:

http://nhthifi.com/2006/service-repair.html

Sorry to hear about your problems. :(

Thanks, I appreciate the input. that's what I would have expected anyway. I mean if Def. Tech. can provide a decent finish on the bottom, you would expect NHT to step up to the plate.
For $2000, you would at least expect them not to have a bunch of contact cement on the bottom, much less screw inserts that don't work.

MF

Don't worry, they will. Not knocking DT's CS as I've never dealt with them (and prolly never will), but NHT's is usually always top notch. :)

MF, contact NHT and see if they can help you. I'm not sure how easy it is to replace the inserts, I've never had to do it.
Just got word from my dealer this morning, he has been out of town, but he is calling NHT today to get this dealt with for me one way or another.

MF

Finally, a picture of an Evo sub driver. :p

Looks to be maybe about the equivalent of the SVS NSD driver. ;)
Cool, very similar, though the magnet structure on the NSD driver looks a bit beefier.

Don't worry, they will. Not knocking DT's CS as I've never dealt with them (and prolly never will), but NHT's is usually always top notch. :)
Yeah, I'm sure they will take care of it. Glad my dealer is stepping up to the plate too!

Yeah, I'm sure they will take care of it. Glad my dealer is stepping up to the plate too!

(soap box)
Good!! If there are any problems, give NHT waranty a call. Most likely you will talk to Matt. He is VERY helpful and GREAT to deal with!! I had a pin from the screen dent my driver. Matt took care of it quick and easy!!
The sound hooked me, the service and people have created a loyal customer!!
Matt was one of the best customer service/warranty people I have dealt with and having Jack around here has been great. He has been helpfull here and via PM. Very open approachable company and you don't get lost in phone trees!!
I am a gear nut and have lots of toys. Meaning I have dealt with many different "high end" companys. NHT is by far the easiest to deal with and not the least bit errogant or snooty.
(off soap box)

Finally, a picture of an Evo sub driver. :p

Looks to be maybe about the equivalent of the SVS NSD driver. ;)


I'd say that most B&M brands have really fallen behind in subwoofer bang for the buck in the last couple of years. What's a better value the NHT U2 or this:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/emotiva-drs-1

Cool, very similar, though the magnet structure on the NSD driver looks a bit beefier.

Yep, that's why I included the "maybe" and accentuated the "about" in my comment comparing it the I/NSD driver. ;)

I'd say that most B&M brands have really fallen behind in subwoofer bang for the buck in the last couple of years. What's a better value the NHT U2 or this:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/emotiva-drs-1


That looks interesting, and is directly comparable to the U2 (except for price). The U2 is what now, a little over $1600 at retail? That definitely hurts it in this particular comparison. Hell, you could actually get dual SVS SB12 Pluses in piano gloss black shipped for what a U2 set now retails for. :eek:

Now OTOH, if the U2 could be bought ID for say about $950 or so (plus shipping, which as Allen previously pointed out, would pretty much be offset by not having to pay state sales taxes), it would be a much more fair comparison. ;)

Plus, you would then have the option to pick up an additional A1 if you wanted to for stereo bass for say $250 (plus shipping). :cool:

Edit- here is the actual Emotica page on it for now:

http://www.emotiva.com/

Okay, well, sure, looks like Mark copied the U2 finally, but consider that the U2 is 6 years old now. Not that this is an excuse, NHT really needs to update the electronics if not the subs. The A1/X1 combo should be combined into one unit at this point.

I have to say the AV123 version looks to be a better value now, but it is the only other thing I've seen that is even similar in design to a U2.

Keep in mind that the AV123 sub should cost no more than about $700-$800 if everyone's predictions about the "amazing" savings of direct sales were true ;) Keep in mind that the price increase NHT just had was pretty much arbitrary (and ill-advised).

Okay, well, sure, looks like Mark copied the U2 finally, but consider that the U2 is 6 years old now. Not that this is an excuse, NHT really needs to update the electronics if not the subs. The A1/X1 combo should be combined into one unit at this point.

I have to say the AV123 version looks to be a better value now, but it is the only other thing I've seen that is even similar in design to a U2.


Uhh, that's Emotiva, not AV123. :p

Keep in mind that the AV123 sub should cost no more than about $700-$800 if everyone's predictions about the "amazing" savings of direct sales were true ;)

And even with the recent increases, what do you think a U2 set actually costs NHT to make? ;)

Uhh, that's Emotiva, not AV123. :p

What's the difference?

And even with the recent increases, what do you think a U2 set actually costs NHT to make? ;)

Don't know, but I doubt there's a huge gross, let alone net, profit margin. I would imagine that the woofers must cost about $50 each, the cabinets/boxes about $50 each, the amp/crossover probably $100 each, but then they have all their operational/design/personnel, etc, costs. But that's a really conservative estimate.

Keep in mind that the rationale for a company is that even if you were good enough to design this stuff on your own, your costs to build would generally match or exceed the retail price, even with your own labor. Not always, but generally. Or thereabouts. So the cost to NHT to build isn't so much the big deal, you have to look at the value. Is the Emotiva a better value now? Probably. But if NHT didn't randomly raise its price *and* combined the X1 and A1 in one box, then the U2 would actually retail for more like $1100/pr. Add in a 10% discount and voila.

Why do you think I've been fighting to get the EQ circuit built into the A1 (not that anyone at NHT ever listens to me anyway)? Competitive value.

What's the difference?

Oh, just the same difference as, for example, NHT to any other totally different B&M brand. :p

But if NHT didn't randomly raise its price *and* combined the X1 and A1 in one box, then the U2 would actually retail for more like $1100/pr. Add in a 10% discount and voila.

If I were 7' tall *and* 20 years younger, then I could play in the NBA right now too! Add in an unstoppable sky-hook and I'd be an All-Star. :D

Why do you think I've been fighting to get the EQ circuit built into the A1 (not that anyone at NHT ever listens to me anyway)? Competitive value.

While that might lower the cost slightly for a stock U2 set, or a single U1, it would actually increase the price just the same for those who wanted to run dual W1s or add a second A1 to a U2, would it not?

Besides, I'm sure that NHT has prolly sold more than a few A1s that are used to power satellite monitors as well. :cool:

I'd say that most B&M brands have really fallen behind in subwoofer bang for the buck in the last couple of years. What's a better value the NHT U2 or this:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/emotiva-drs-1

Nice to see more sealed subs. Are their monitors sealed too? Emotiva's stuff always looked pretty sweet on the web site. Hopefully these turn out well for them.

Although since I already have my full NHT set I guess it doesn't mean that much to me, but I'm still a little curious. NHT would have likely still been a clear winner at the old prices, but at the new ones, it starts to look like more of a fight. Certainly for the subs; the monitors as Classic competitors look a bit lacking, though you could certainly make a compelling case for using the Emotivas as a "mini Evolution" system.

Parasound now has a 2 channel pre-amp with built in bass management to get around the X1's high pass filters, plus it has a HT by-pass too.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAC2100

Parasound now has a 2 channel pre-amp with built in bass management to get around the X1's high pass filters, plus it has a HT by-pass too.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAC2100
That's cool, but I don't really like the idea of having yet another component "in-line" along with the X-1 for the Left and Right audio using the M6/B6 combo. Are the X1's high pass filters really that bad when used with the M6/B6 combo? Part of me is thinking I should just get two SVS SB-12Plus subs (one for left and right) to go with my M6's to run them "Large" (full range), using the SB-12 built-in crossovers, and be done with it. Though I would still probably want to use the Sunfire Signature EQ sub for the LFE channel, since the SB-12 drops off pretty good below 25Hz.

Thoughts,
MF

Well it wouldn't really be another component "in-line". The high pass outs from the Parasound pre would go straight to the main ins on the amp or amps powering the main L/R speakers.

The sub out on the pre would go to the LFE/sub in on the X1, unless you were doing stereo bass, then you would run the main L/R unfiltered outs in tandem to the L/R ins on the X1, and let the X1 do the low pass.

IMO, a pair of B6s will definitely outperform a pair of SB 12s.

Well it wouldn't really be another component "in-line". The high pass outs from the Parasound pre would go straight to the main ins on the amp or amps powering the main L/R speakers.

The sub out on the pre would go to the LFE/sub in on the X1, unless you were doing stereo bass, then you would run the main L/R unfiltered outs in tandem to the L/R ins on the X1, and let the X1 do the low pass.

IMO, a pair of B6s will definitely outperform a pair of SB 12s.
I was talking about stereo subs.

Not sure about definately outperforming the SB-12's. The SB-12's have a lot more power behind them, and are capable of moving more air per driver. Sure the B6's have two drivers each, but I am guessing they don't move near the amount of air per driver. Those Plus drivers are a hell of a lot better than what is in those B6's (just look at the motor structure and the magnet alone). Just because there is more cone area (with the two 12" drivers in each cabinet) and a little more cabinet area, does not mean that there would be that big of a difference between the B6's and the SB-12's IMO. Would be cool to let someone like Illka do a little GP session. ;)

MF

I wonder how the emo subs would sound under my left and right classic 3s?

Parasound now has a 2 channel pre-amp with built in bass management to get around the X1's high pass filters, plus it has a HT by-pass too.
I thought the X1 also added equalization to flatten out the response, matched to the W1/W2 drivers.

If I were 7' tall *and* 20 years younger, then I could play in the NBA right now too! Add in an unstoppable sky-hook and I'd be an All-Star. :DIf you were coordinated :D

While that might lower the cost slightly for a stock U2 set, or a single U1, it would actually increase the price just the same for those who wanted to run dual W1s or add a second A1 to a U2, would it not?

Adding the filter and a defeat switch shouldn't add more than $50 to the A1, so that would be a net decrease of $250-$300 for any of the sub systems. You could add an X2 if you don't have a crossover built in to your preamp/receiver. They could/should add digital room correction to the X2.

I'd say that most B&M brands have really fallen behind in subwoofer bang for the buck in the last couple of years. What's a better value the NHT U2 or this:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/emotiva-drs-1

I think Emotive has a return plan. So you could try it to see if you like it, The DRS-1 is new so not to many people will have heard it and to find someone who has heard it and U2 set up will be even harder IMO.
Allen

I was talking about stereo subs.

So was I. ;)

Not sure about definately outperforming the SB-12's. The SB-12's have a lot more power behind them, and are capable of moving more air per driver. Sure the B6's have two drivers each, but I am guessing they don't move near the amount of air per driver. Those Plus drivers are a hell of a lot better than what is in those B6's (just look at the motor structure and the magnet alone). Just because there is more cone area (with the two 12" drivers in each cabinet) and a little more cabinet area, does not mean that there would be that big of a difference between the B6's and the SB-12's IMO. Would be cool to let someone like Illka do a little GP session. ;)

MF

Well SVS themselves on the SB12 product page touts the laws of physics when comparing the SB12 to their bigger, ported subs, and the B6 does in fact have virtually double the cabinet volume and exactly double the driver displacement of a S12.

Few brands will be honest about this point: "size matters" ... with subwoofers. Even if perfectly designed, no truly small sub like the SB12-Plus will compete with an equally well-designed large subwoofer (particularly if it's one of our super-efficient vented subwoofers such as those mentioned just above). Physics is an unforgiving master.

from:

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-sb12plus.cfm

As for power, don't be fooled by the ratings. Trust me on this if you never do on anything else ever again, a pair of B6s will have more output than a pair of SB12s. The Evo subs are very efficient/sensitive. Plus, there is the 20 Hz X1 mod available for as deep or deeper extension too.

In the SB12s' favor though, they would have more and better room placement flexibility options than a pair of B6s. Not to even mention, they would look a lot better if that mattered any. :o

You also have a very good point about the Plus driver compared to the Evo driver too. I don't think anyone here, not even John, would try to argue that point. However, with that said, interestingly enough, a single W1 cabinet is 14 x 14 x 14 and weighs 38 lbs by itself. A SB12 is 15 x 14 x 14 and weighs 40 lbs., and that includes the weight of the amp and crossover included in with that figure whereas the W1's weight does not include the amp and crossover.

I thought the X1 also added equalization to flatten out the response, matched to the W1/W2 drivers.

It does. It would still be business as usual with the X1, but you simply wouldn't be using it's high pass outputs, even for stereo bass on 2 channel gear.

If you were coordinated :D

Touche`! :D

Adding the filter and a defeat switch shouldn't add more than $50 to the A1, so that would be a net decrease of $250-$300 for any of the sub systems. You could add an X2 if you don't have a crossover built in to your preamp/receiver. They could/should add digital room correction to the X2.

I see what you're trying to get at, but you still wouldn't have all the controls of the X1, unless, as you pointed out, you bought an X2, which kind of defeats the purpose.

Frankly, I'm starting to think that there's simply not going to be a next generation Evo series. If it doesn't happen soon, within the next 6 months or so, then I wonder if it ever will. :(

... but at the new ones, it starts to look like more of a fight.

It's not even a fight anymore. ID brands are offering more and more for the $$$, while NHT has now priced themselves out of the game I'm afraid. The fact is, there are much better options available now for the $$$. For what a U1 or U2 now retails for, you could just go ahead and get a SVS PB13 Ultra instead and be done with it. :eek:

I think Emotive has a return plan. So you could try it to see if you like it, The DRS-1 is new so not to many people will have heard it and to find someone who has heard it and U2 set up will be even harder IMO.
Allen

Velodyne also has something similar in their "sub-contractor" series. It's an amp with their room correction system/Eq, and it can drive one or two passive cabinets.

http://www.velodyne.com/velodyne/products/product.aspx?ID=19&sid=304u156t

The matching passive cabinets are available with 8", 10", 12", or 15" drivers.

http://www.velodyne.com/velodyne/products/product.aspx?ID=23&sid=304u156t

It's not even a fight anymore. ID brands are offering more and more for the $$$, while NHT has now priced themselves out of the game I'm afraid. The fact is, there are much better options available now for the $$$. For what a U1 or U2 now retails for, you could just go ahead and get a SVS PB13 Ultra instead and be done with it. :eek:

I know you're big on the SVS, and of course I have to give you credit given your experience, but I'm pretty firmly in favor of sealed subs. Maybe this SVS is an exception like you seem to think, but it certainly goes against my limited personal experience.

Regardless, seems like everyone is in agreement that the price increase is a pretty bad move and questions the value of NHT's products. Still, there's only so many in the sealed enclosure game.

It's not even a fight anymore. ID brands are offering more and more for the $$$, while NHT has now priced themselves out of the game I'm afraid. The fact is, there are much better options available now for the $$$. For what a U1 or U2 now retails for, you could just go ahead and get a SVS PB13 Ultra instead and be done with it. :eek:

Most people still want local dealer support and someone to install it for them and make it work well. A good sub badly setup won't touch an average sub well set up. Besides, I can fit the NHTs in places no SVS I've seen would possibly fit. They have their market, NHT has theirs. All the bluster in the world won't change that.

hi everyone!!!
finally a place to talk about nht speakers. i started my own nht forum and no one entered...... i was getting sacred i was the only person listening to these amazing speakers.
please check out my forum on htguide.com post your nht setups!!!!!!
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=27087


art

So was I. ;)
Well in this scenario would it not be true that the Parasound and the X1 would be in the same chain together?



Well SVS themselves on the SB12 product page touts the laws of physics when comparing the SB12 to their bigger, ported subs, and the B6 does in fact have virtually double the cabinet volume and exactly double the driver displacement of a S12.
I understand that, but I am "guessing" that the excursion of the SB12 (along with more power), might equalize at least the displacement of the two extra drivers B6 drivers, which visually don't look like they would come close to equaling the excursion of the SB12 Plus driver. True, that the cabinet volume would put the B6 ahead though. I am not really arguing that, it just seems that you eluded that the B6 would be way better than the SB12, I am just saying it might be closer than you think. ;)
Besides, ultimately in my case, I would also be using the Sunfire Signature EQ sub for LFE, I would mainly just be using the SB12's for music, running the mains full range. ;)

And actually since I am going to be using the Sunfire anyway for LFE, I might even save a few more bucks, and go with a pair of the Rocket ULW-10's as I already have a external M&K 80Hz cross-over I can use inline with the main channels of my amp, allowing me to run "full range" for music. Plus like you said, I will have better pacement options.

MF

I know you're big on the SVS, and of course I have to give you credit given your experience, but I'm pretty firmly in favor of sealed subs. Maybe this SVS is an exception like you seem to think, but it certainly goes against my limited personal experience.

Regardless, seems like everyone is in agreement that the price increase is a pretty bad move and questions the value of NHT's products. Still, there's only so many in the sealed enclosure game.

I compared my older svs16-46 sub to the sub in my 2.9s. The 2.9 have a better sound in the sub sound. So I will agree that the sound of sealed subs sound better to most people. But and I hate to put words in peoples mouth but Craigsub has pushed sealed sub since I can remeber reading his reviews starting a few years back. So for him to put the pb-13 on top of some really great subs tells me that must be one great sub. And as Mark keeps pointing out their is not really anything at its price that will beat it.
Allen

I know you're big on the SVS, and of course I have to give you credit given your experience, but I'm pretty firmly in favor of sealed subs. Maybe this SVS is an exception like you seem to think, but it certainly goes against my limited personal experience.

Regardless, seems like everyone is in agreement that the price increase is a pretty bad move and questions the value of NHT's products. Still, there's only so many in the sealed enclosure game.

I think that anyone who limits themselves to only one kind or the other, either ported or sealed, is doing just that - limiting themselves. :p

Like you said though, it's pretty much unanimous here that NHT hasn't exactly helped themselves with the price increases, especially in the sub dept. where the competition is arguably even fiercer. :eek:

Most people still want local dealer support and someone to install it for them and make it work well. A good sub badly setup won't touch an average sub well set up. Besides, I can fit the NHTs in places no SVS I've seen would possibly fit. They have their market, NHT has theirs. All the bluster in the world won't change that.

Then you've obviously never seen a SB12 Plus, nor the recent discussion about it either.:p

Well in this scenario would it not be true that the Parasound and the X1 would be in the same chain together?

True, but you will still have to have a pre-amp of some sort anyway. What I'm trying to get at here is the new Parasound pre-amp is another 2 channel piece of gear that will allow somebody to have true stereo bass while at the same time avoiding the X1's high pass filters with Evo subs. Some others are the NAD M3 integrated amp, B&K Reference 5 S2 tuner/pre-amp, and the Emotiva RSP-1 pre-amp.

I understand that, but I am "guessing" that the excursion of the SB12 (along with more power), might equalize at least the displacement of the two extra drivers B6 drivers, which visually don't look like they would come close to equaling the excursion of the SB12 Plus driver. True, that the cabinet volume would put the B6 ahead though. I am not really arguing that, it just seems that you eluded that the B6 would be way better than the SB12, I am just saying it might be closer than you think. ;)
Besides, ultimately in my case, I would also be using the Sunfire Signature EQ sub for LFE, I would mainly just be using the SB12's for music, running the mains full range. ;)

And actually since I am going to be using the Sunfire anyway for LFE, I might even save a few more bucks, and go with a pair of the Rocket ULW-10's as I already have a external M&K 80Hz cross-over I can use inline with the main channels of my amp, allowing me to run "full range" for music. Plus like you said, I will have better pacement options.

MF

The SB12 is a fantastic little sub, no doubt about that, and the Plus driver is clearly in a whole other league over the Evo driver. I would definitely recommend two SB12s over a U2 set at the new prices any day of the week, but B6s will top a pair of 'em IMO. You would prolly need four SB12s to top a pair of B6s.

B6s with the 20 Hz mod to their X1 would more than likely be all the sub you need for both music and movies so that you could forget about the Sunfire entirely. :)

You know I found a dealer that says he can special order some new NHT B6's that have been essentially "Wherehoused" ever since NHT discontinued the T6's. So I think I am going to give them a go. They are a little more $ than I could get them used (if someone was willing to split them from some T1's they are selling ;) ), but hey they will be new!

MF

You know I found a dealer that says he can special order some new NHT B6's that have been essentially "Wherehoused" ever since NHT discontinued the T6's. So I think I am going to give them a go. They are a little more $ than I could get them used (if someone was willing to split them from some T1's they are selling ;) ), but hey they will be new!

MF

Cool, but just make sure they are a "mirror imaged" matching L/R pair, and not two Ls or two Rs.

Cool, but just make sure they are a "mirror imaged" matching L/R pair, and not two Ls or two Rs.
Good Point. Though would it be that big of a deal you think if they were two lefts or two rights?

MF

On movies, prolly not really that big of a deal, especially if you keep the crossover no higher than 80 Hz. On music though, I would definitely prefer a matching set, but that's just me.

I guess theoretically, there may actually be some set up situations in some rooms where it might actually be beneficial to have all the drivers pointing in the same direction like that. :o

That's true. I guess I will just just to get the matched set, and deal with it, if it is not. May work better is some situations like you say.

Here is a question for you Mark.

If I used the SB12-Plus x 2 to go with the M6's so I can run the fronts as "full range" using the internal x-over in the SB12's. And then use the the Sunfire Signature EQ sub. nearfield for LFE only. How do you think that system would compare to just the B6's (with the 20Hz mod.) for movies? Obvioulsy not having the B6's nearfield for movies will make a difference don't you think? I mean if the Sunfire can hit near 116dB with boundry reinforcement (per the Secrets review when J.J. calculated near that with his 20hz, 31.5Hz, and 50Hz combined output test) and it's nearfield, I would think it might have an advantage for those effects movies when you combine it with the SB12's running the low end for the left and right speakers. Though obviously they would not be getting the LFE signal, so it might not matter.

Thoughts?

You know I found a dealer that says he can special order some new NHT B6's that have been essentially "Wherehoused" ever since NHT discontinued the T6's. So I think I am going to give them a go. They are a little more $ than I could get them used (if someone was willing to split them from some T1's they are selling ;) ), but hey they will be new!

Damn. I thought I was the only one they told about those, I was going to make a surprise announcement as soon as I got the firm data.

I think that anyone who limits themselves to only one kind or the other, either ported or sealed, is doing just that - limiting themselves. :p

As Allen pointed out, the PB13 U has been rated higher, even on music, than even the JLA F113 and Velodyne DD-18 (which are both sealed BTW, as well as at least twice the price of the SVS), and I think it's prolly pretty safe to say that no one who has heard them all has ever honestly rated any Evo subs rated higher than those two. ;)

Well, I'd love to have the chance to find out. I'm not so close-minded that I wouldn't buy a PB13 if I knew I'd like it better than my U1. Hell, I'd love to throw in the JLA (which looks great) and the Velodyne too. And tons of other gear too. But it's not in the budget.

It's not a matter of limiting myself because of close-mindedness. I'm just saying I'm skeptical of claims that the PB13 can overcome the inherent problems of ported subs. Lots of reviews will rank ported designs very highly. That doesn't mean I'll like them, though.

But though I'm skeptical, I'm not irredeemably so. I just happen to have audiophile tastes on a grad student budget.

Dilemma:
My wife and I have concluded that the current NHT system takes up too much space in our room... I am at ends because it produces probably the best sound I have experienced along with my friends setup of B&W Nautilus 801's Front AND Rear along with their killer Nautilus Center... sorry John... I like B&W AND NHT... they are both excellent companies!

I am considering doing Classic Fours Front and Rear, Classic 3C Center and a Classic Twelve Subwoofer...

What do you guys think?

My concern is the interaction of the Fours and the Twelve in the lowest region where there might be some phase issues due to the ported bass design...

****JACK****JACK****JACK****HIDLEY****HIDLEY****HIDLEY***

Jack, you are the man who can answer that question... please chime in...

Just out of curiosity, what's the current system?

If you do the Fours and the Twelve, will you run the Fours full range or cross them over low with the Twelve?

Dilemma:
My wife and I have concluded that the current NHT system takes up too much space in our room... I am at ends because it produces probably the best sound I have experienced along with my friends setup of B&W Nautilus 801's Front AND Rear along with their killer Nautilus Center... sorry John... I like B&W AND NHT... they are both excellent companies!

I am considering doing Classic Fours Front and Rear, Classic 3C Center and a Classic Twelve Subwoofer...

What do you guys think?

My concern is the interaction of the Fours and the Twelve in the lowest region where there might be some phase issues due to the ported bass design...

****JACK****JACK****JACK****HIDLEY****HIDLEY****HIDLEY***

Jack, you are the man who can answer that question... please chime in...

Why not Threes all the way around with the U1?

PS - I never said you shouldn't *like* B&W, just that you should like NHT better ;)

That would be like trading in a Ferrari for a Hyundai...

My extensive research and testing has confirmred that large speakers all around AND a sub is the optimal scenario... the moment you engage bass management, you comprimise the S/N Ratio and Dynamic Range of the original source material...

I would like to keep the U1 since it absolutely kicks butt with the 20hz mod, but we all know acoustic suspension bass and ported bass will not do well in the same system... if the Twelve is tuned similar to the Fours and the output transition to the port is close, I may just be in luck!

Need Jack to confirm that one...

More like an older Ferrari for a Lotus.

Well, then just get Xd with multiple subs. They'll play as loud or louder than 3.3s and do it more clearly with far better resolution and detail. Also solves the size thing. That's like trading an older Ferrari for a Veyron. Better quality bass than the U1s too.

Just out of curiosity, what's the current system?

If you do the Fours and the Twelve, will you run the Fours full range or cross them over low with the Twelve?

See above... #5081... all speakers large... no bass management

Current System... see below... my signature...

More like an older Ferrari for a Lotus.

Well, then just get Xd with multiple subs. They'll play as loud or louder than 3.3s and do it more clearly with far better resolution and detail. Also solves the size thing. That's like trading an older Ferrari for a Veyron. Better quality bass than the U1s too.
It would be way too many boxes with all the subs and XDA's... plus, I only like the XD when it has 2 subs per system. I think they need to come out with a mkII or new model with the ICE power modules and features like an internal volume control, digital inputs and input switching... then I will replace the 3.3's in my 2 channel system...

Damn. I thought I was the only one they told about those, I was going to make a surprise announcement as soon as I got the firm data.
Any idea on when that "firm data" data might be available? ;)

MF

Still waiting! I thought I'd hear back. Maybe the other guy bought them all, I don't know.

Interesting, I wonder how many they have/had in the warehouse.

It would be way too many boxes with all the subs and XDA's... plus, I only like the XD when it has 2 subs per system. I think they need to come out with a mkII or new model with the ICE power modules and features like an internal volume control, digital inputs and input switching... then I will replace the 3.3's in my 2 channel system...

fwiw, I run my ST4s full and xover at the lowest possible with the NAD AVR. I EQ'd my Velo to blend in properly. Pretty happy with the results, but I can't wait to try the Audyssey stuff.

Dilemma:
My wife and I have concluded that the current NHT system takes up too much space in our room... I am at ends because it produces probably the best sound I have experienced along with my friends setup of B&W Nautilus 801's Front AND Rear along with their killer Nautilus Center... sorry John... I like B&W AND NHT... they are both excellent companies!

I am considering doing Classic Fours Front and Rear, Classic 3C Center and a Classic Twelve Subwoofer...

What do you guys think?

My concern is the interaction of the Fours and the Twelve in the lowest region where there might be some phase issues due to the ported bass design...

****JACK****JACK****JACK****HIDLEY****HIDLEY****HIDLEY***

Jack, you are the man who can answer that question... please chime in...

Someone not too long ago PMed me asking basically the same question you are, only it was about using the exact same speaker system as you described with a Controller/Power5, and adding an X2/A1s to the main L/R pair of Fours.

I told them to go for it, but that I wouldn't bother using the X2/A1s on the mains because of the Controller's Deq, and the fact that the Power5 would have plenty of "juice" for them without needing the A1s, and that the Controller's last and next software update would automatically tie the Twelve and Fours together.

However, I told him to PM Jack with the same questions too, and he later told me Jack told him just about the exact opposite of what I suggested. :o

Basically as I recall, Jack said to forget about adding the Twelve, and to use the X2/A1s with the main Fours, and that while Fours would work OK as surrounds, they would be overkill since there really isn't that much low frequency information back there as to justify them, and that he would recommend Threes for surrounds instead.

Ultimate AV I think it was measured the Fours at -10db at 22 Hz if I'm not mistaken, which would prolly be close to your W1 before the 20 Hz mod to it's X1. Since the Fours 10" sub driver handles all frequencies below 125 Hz anyway, why not just let the main L/R pair handle all the LFE and forget the Twelve?

fwiw, I run my ST4s full and xover at the lowest possible with the NAD AVR.

Do you mean that you have main L/R large, and all other speakers crossed over low to the Velo?

It would be way too many boxes with all the subs and XDA's... plus, I only like the XD when it has 2 subs per system. I think they need to come out with a mkII or new model with the ICE power modules and features like an internal volume control, digital inputs and input switching... then I will replace the 3.3's in my 2 channel system...

Preaching to the choir buddy :)

Well, I'd love to have the chance to find out. I'm not so close-minded that I wouldn't buy a PB13 if I knew I'd like it better than my U1. Hell, I'd love to throw in the JLA (which looks great) and the Velodyne too. And tons of other gear too. But it's not in the budget.

It's not a matter of limiting myself because of close-mindedness. I'm just saying I'm skeptical of claims that the PB13 can overcome the inherent problems of sealed subs. Lots of reviews will rank ported designs very highly. That doesn't mean I'll like them, though.

But though I'm skeptical, I'm not irredeemably so. I just happen to have audiophile tastes on a grad student budget.

FWIW, the PB13 U can run in either ported or sealed modes. ;)

Plus it is about the same price as a U1 or U2 now, which is a lot less than the JLA F113 and Velo DD-18. :cool:

FWIW, when I had my pair of Fours and was comparing them to the T5s, after I added the X2 and A1s to the Fours, it definitely IMO closed the gap in bass performance with the B5s.

The B5 does have a bigger driver, and a much more substantial magnet structure than the Four's 10' sub driver too.

Meant to say ported there...

So I don't know too much about plugging up ports. Seems though like if you want a sealed sub you should buy a sub that's designed to be sealed, rather than sealing up one that was designed/voiced to be ported. But maybe I'm missing something.

FWIW, the PB13 U can run in either ported or sealed modes. ;)

Plus it is about the same price as a U1 or U2 now, which is a lot less than the JLA F113 and Velo DD-18. :cool:

FWIW, when I had my pair of Fours and was comparing them to the T5s, after I added the X2 and A1s to the Fours, it definitely IMO closed the gap in bass performance with the B5s.

The B5 does have a bigger driver, and a much more substantial magnet structure than the Four's 10' sub driver too.

Meant to say ported there...

So I don't know too much about plugging up ports. Seems though like if you want a sealed sub you should buy a sub that's designed to be sealed, rather than sealing up one that was designed/voiced to be ported. But maybe I'm missing something.

IMO, someone should simply buy the best sub they can afford, regardless of design. And as for what you're missing, just one audition, and you won't be missing it anymore. ;)

Do you mean that you have main L/R large, and all other speakers crossed over low to the Velo?

The SB3 center, yes. I have ST4s front and back.

Mark, just want to make sure you saw my post:
Here is a question for you Mark.

If I used the SB12-Plus x 2 to go with the M6's so I can run the fronts as "full range" using the internal x-over in the SB12's. And then use the the Sunfire Signature EQ sub. nearfield for LFE only. How do you think that system would compare to just the B6's (with the 20Hz mod.) for movies? Obvioulsy not having the B6's nearfield for movies will make a difference don't you think? I mean if the Sunfire can hit near 116dB with boundry reinforcement (per the Secrets review when J.J. calculated near that with his 20hz, 31.5Hz, and 50Hz combined output test) and it's nearfield, I would think it might have an advantage for those effects movies when you combine it with the SB12's running the low end for the left and right speakers. Though obviously they would not be getting the LFE signal, so it might not matter.

Thoughts?

IMO, someone should simply buy the best sub they can afford, regardless of design. And as for what you're missing, just one audition, and you won't be missing it anymore. ;)

Well, I bought the best sub I could afford. But design is exactly what dictates "best". Maybe other elements of the SVS design make up for the porting and make it the best, but like I said I'm skeptical.

I'd love to audition and find out. But that would involve, at minimum, 2 way shipping. If I were unhappy with my U1 maybe I'd consider it, but as it is, this argument will have to remain speculative on my end. I've got better things to spend my money on.

Unless you want to cover shipping. Then I'd be glad to audition. But I doubt it's worth that much to you to be right :-)

The SB3 center, yes. I have ST4s front and back.

So basically, all you have going to the sub itself is the LFE and the CC speaker's high pass?

Well, I bought the best sub I could afford. But design is exactly what dictates "best". Maybe other elements of the SVS design make up for the porting and make it the best, but like I said I'm skeptical.

I'd love to audition and find out. But that would involve, at minimum, 2 way shipping. If I were unhappy with my U1 maybe I'd consider it, but as it is, this argument will have to remain speculative on my end. I've got better things to spend my money on.

Unless you want to cover shipping. Then I'd be glad to audition. But I doubt it's worth that much to you to be right :-)

No, frankly, I could care less what you have or like when it comes right down to it, but if I'm not mistaken, SVS has a 45 trial period where they foot the bill for return freight if you don't like it. :)

But by all means, you really should at least actually hear something first before coming to any conclusions or preconceived notions about it, especially if you hadn't already have purchased something and were about to. Correct me if I'm wrong, you went from something like a SW12 to the U1 as frame of reference for comparison? If so, trust me on this, there's a BIG difference between that and a PB13U. ;)

Mark, just want to make sure you saw my post:

Since you asked me specifically, I personally don't like mixing different subs in the same system. I'd prefer to keep them all the same. In fact, I don't feel like trying to find it, but if you look for yourself, Jack made a post where he recommended not to mix any other subs with Evo subs for example, that if you wanted more, simply add another Evo sub to the system.

I'm not all familiar with the specific Sunfire sub you mention, so I won't even comment on it. :o

I still say you should just get the B6s with the 20 Hz modded X1 though, especially since you said space is at a premium, and if you want more, simply later add a U2 or one or more W1s to the system. ;)

No, frankly, I could care less what you have or like when it comes right down to it, but if I'm not mistaken, SVS has a 45 trial period where they foot the bill for return freight if you don't like it. :)

What I saw indicated a refund just on purchase price and that shipping both ways was the customer's responsibility.

But by all means, you really should at least actually hear something first before coming to any conclusions or preconceived notions about it, especially if you hadn't already have purchased something and were about to. Correct me if I'm wrong, you went from something like a SW12 to the U1 as frame of reference for comparison? If so, trust me on this, there's a BIG difference between that and a PB13U. ;)

Well, you've got me there, my frame of reference is an SW12->U1, as far as subs go. But I'm also drawing conclusions from my experience with full range ported vs. sealed speakers.

That aside, you just can't hear everything yourself. There's too much stuff out there; it's not practical. So you have to form some reasonable assumptions. Everything I've heard has indicated that I have a strong preference for sealed speakers. I'll reevaluate next time I'm in the market, but as it is I have a right to be skeptical of claims that run counter to my experiences. And that's all I am is skeptical. I'll gladly admit it if I'm wrong, but as it is I'm not going to find out anytime soon.

Since you asked me specifically, I personally don't like mixing different subs in the same system. I'd prefer to keep them all the same. In fact, I don't feel like trying to find it, but if you look for yourself, Jack made a post where he recommended not to mix any other subs with Evo subs for example, that if you wanted more, simply add another Evo sub to the system.

I'm not all familiar with the specific Sunfire sub you mention, so I won't even comment on it. :o

I still say you should just get the B6s with the 20 Hz modded X1 though, especially since you said space is at a premium, and if you want more, simply later add a U2 or one or more W1s to the system. ;)
I understand, but that really did not address the real question. Since I would not be using the Sunfire at all for music, and for movies the SB12's would not be used for LFE. So in reality they are not being "used together". My main question was essentially, would something that puts out about 116dB "nearfield" (in this case the Sunfire), be a better alternative for LFE compared to the B6's which would be placed up front (about 12' away) along with the M6's. For music, I'm guessing the SB12's would do just fine when properly integrated with the M6's compared to the B6's.

MF

Not to turn this into an SVS thread but the PB10-ISD is very fast and musical but is still able to make a 16Hz test tone so deep that it shakes the room's foundation. You sense it more that actually hear it. Great match for the Classic Threes. I can only imagine what the PB13 Ultra can do.

At times, I'm tempted by the PB13 Ultra, but I can't even use all that the entry-level PB10 provides.

So basically, all you have going to the sub itself is the LFE and the CC speaker's high pass?

The LFE and the CC speaker's low pass.

All of the woofers in the Classic series that are used in 3-ways have aluminum cones. Both of the woofers used in 2-ways have PP cones. All of the drivers in the line are manufactured in China. We did a ton of development work using FEA for the magnetics and mechanical issues. We ended up using virtually zero off the shelf components in all of the drivers. All of the drivers have shorting rings to reduce flux modulation, even the Absolute Zero. All of the woofers (except the 10" in the Four) have frames made of BMC, the same material used in the XdS baffle. The frames are about 4 times as stiff as the frames in the previous line (Super Audio). The baffles for all of the speakers are about twice as thick as the SA cabinets had. This allows us to use much larger radii on them to smooth out the off axis response and reduces the level of baffle acoustic radiation due to the increase in stiffness. There is a lot of cool stuff in this product.

The irony is that there's nothing at all "classic" about the classic series. It's all pretty cutting edge stuff normally only found on very expensive gear.

Now, we just need about half a dozen more models of it ;)

Now, we just need about half a dozen more models of it ;)

And at 15% off the current price (well, actually ~13.04% offf, but you get the idea)...

I agree. Although, if you look at the competition, the Three/Fours/3C can stand the price hike. The rest, well, it could if it received some updating. The Evo subs could with digital version of the X1. The Classic subs, well, they need to be replaced with dual woofer units to be in those price points. They should definitely not have gone up.

I actually told NHT before they started shipping that I could easily sell the Classic dome array speakers for more, but, of course, the lower they are, the more I can sell. I would have expected $2K and $1K for those models, actually. It sure would have helped the sale of Twos (at the expense of the Threes)

Basically as I recall, Jack said to forget about adding the Twelve, and to use the X2/A1s with the main Fours, and that while Fours would work OK as surrounds, they would be overkill since there really isn't that much low frequency information back there as to justify them, and that he would recommend Threes for surrounds instead.

Ultimate AV I think it was measured the Fours at -10db at 22 Hz if I'm not mistaken, which would prolly be close to your W1 before the 20 Hz mod to it's X1. Since the Fours 10" sub driver handles all frequencies below 125 Hz anyway, why not just let the main L/R pair handle all the LFE and forget the Twelve?


I have found that there is signifigant low frequency information in the surrounds and the center in many mixes... below what the Three's are cabable of reproducing with any real authority.

Two 10" drivers handling ALL the low frequencies would be a joke compared to the 4-12" drivers and 2-10" drivers currently in my rig... trust me, it takes more cone area to really produce clean deep bass at lifelike amplitude.

Are none of you aware of the comprimises involved the moment you engage bass management? For starters, you lose about 6db S/N ratio the second you change any speaker to SMALL or select NO SUBWOOFER...

BachtoRock, are you suggesting setting even bookshelf speakers to large so as not to get the 6db loss? Even with Bass management, doesn't all speakers set to LARGE get full subwoofer signal as well as the LFE? So even with a "small" center and large L/R you should capture the appropriate center bass that you are referring to, right?

Thanks

Curtis

Are none of you aware of the comprimises involved the moment you engage bass management? For starters, you lose about 6db S/N ratio the second you change any speaker to SMALL or select NO SUBWOOFER...

Any sources to cite for that? Jack certainly seems to think there are phase issues with multiple ported subs. If both are true it's a question of tradeoffs. Uneven bass response due to multiple subs out of phase, or increased noise, maybe increased dynamics...

Also, I suspect with a room as small as mine having all channels full range would result in too much bass. Maybe for your setup and tastes it works better.

I agree. Although, if you look at the competition, the Three/Fours/3C can stand the price hike. The rest, well, it could if it received some updating. The Evo subs could with digital version of the X1. The Classic subs, well, they need to be replaced with dual woofer units to be in those price points. They should definitely not have gone up.

I actually told NHT before they started shipping that I could easily sell the Classic dome array speakers for more, but, of course, the lower they are, the more I can sell. I would have expected $2K and $1K for those models, actually. It sure would have helped the sale of Twos (at the expense of the Threes)

That all makes sense. The Threes might be able to sell for $1000; however the Fours always seemed a little overpriced. I always thought they should sell for less than the cost of Threes and a Twelve.

Having the Threes sell for more does make sense in terms of the Two, but at the new price the AZ seems a bit too expensive.

As to the additional models, you propose:

*Three.Five, a Three with dual woofers in a tower enclosure
*Five, a Four with sealed subs, maybe powered, maybe switchable bipole mode (or is that dipole? I foget)
*LThree, wall-mounted L5-style Three or 3C for surround
*Six, a DEQed Five

If I recall correctly? Or something close to that...

If this stuff came out I'd consider swapping my Threes out for a "Three.Five", or the Threes and U1 out for a "Five". I'd definitely upgrade my AZs to the "LThree", and I'd sure as hell start saving for a cheaper Xd.

Well, I am at another option. Use the B6's or a pair of SVS PC-Ultra 13's? I know the Ultra's are more, but I have the blessing of my SO now. So are the PC-Ultra's the easy Choice as far as SPL and SQ? I can put the Ultra's directly behind the M6's on the P6 stands.

MF

That all makes sense. The Threes might be able to sell for $1000; however the Fours always seemed a little overpriced. I always thought they should sell for less than the cost of Threes and a Twelve.

Well, the Fours are *better* than the Threes and Twelve. They should probably sell for less than Threes and dual Tens and they do. Especially if you add in stands.

Having the Threes sell for more does make sense in terms of the Two, but at the new price the AZ seems a bit too expensive.

They should have held the line on those models, as well as the Evo stuff. Then raise prices on replacement models.

As to the additional models, you propose:

*Three.Five, a Three with dual woofers in a tower enclosure
*Five, a Four with sealed subs, maybe powered, maybe switchable bipole mode (or is that dipole? I foget)
*LThree, wall-mounted L5-style Three or 3C for surround
*Six, a DEQed Five

Well, pretty close. And I never proposed a "Six" exactly, but it's a nice idea ;)

If you look at almost *any* speaker company's bookshelf/tower lineup, NHT has way too few models, at least for towers. Not that they should do "filler" models like most companies, but we really need a minimum of 2-3 more towers in the Classic line and at least one or two in the Xd line. The biggest single thing holding the Xd back is the audiophile prejudice against sub/sat speakers. I tried to warn them about that...........

Anybody need 3.3's, 2.9's or an AC-2 near Phoenix?

Getting Xds? ;)

I have found that there is signifigant low frequency information in the surrounds and the center in many mixes... below what the Three's are cabable of reproducing with any real authority.

Two 10" drivers handling ALL the low frequencies would be a joke compared to the 4-12" drivers and 2-10" drivers currently in my rig... trust me, it takes more cone area to really produce clean deep bass at lifelike amplitude.

Are none of you aware of the comprimises involved the moment you engage bass management? For starters, you lose about 6db S/N ratio the second you change any speaker to SMALL or select NO SUBWOOFER...

I was just telling you what the man himself said, the very same one who's opinion you specifically asked for at that I might add, about the exact same speaker package.

I was forwarded a copy of the PM with Jack's reply in it that I was talking about (that, again, was a direct contradiction to the advise I gave just for the record), and I just checked and still have my copy of it, but I think it may be against the rules to openly post by copy and paste the contents of a PM, so I won't. But I just re-read it, and he did specifically say forget the Twelve, but to add the X2/A1s, and that he recommended Threes as surrounds and said the Fours would be overkill for the rears since there is simply not enough low frequency information back there as to justify them. He also pointed out that Dolby doesn't allow the LFE channel to be steered to the rear channels under any conditions, so the added bass capability will mostly be wasted.

Going from the U1 alone to the Fours would definitely be a downgrade in bass performance though. There is no doubt about that, but if you did add the X2 and A1s, it would close the gap somewhat. As I previously pointed out to Matt, when I compared the Fours with the X2/A1s to the T5s, the T5's (B5's) bass was still better in every way IMO, but I'm not so sure that was because of "sealed vs ported" so much as the fact that the Evo sub driver is simply that much better than the Four's 10" sub driver. For one thing, it is 2" bigger, plus I can easily tell it's magnets are much larger and more substantial since it causes very noticeable and obvious discoloration to tube TVs when placed even NHT's recommended 18" away from them, whereas the Four's simply don't, despite not being magnetically shielded.

Here are some more previous comments Jack has made about the subject too:

Mr. Dog,

You do not need or want to use the Ten subwoofer with the Fours. We keep telling the dealers this, but they have been trained by Dolby for 15 years, that you must have a subwoofer.

If you want better bass, more output capability and more control over the bass in your room, get an X2 crossover with one or two A1 power amps and use this to biamp the Fours. This will give you very high output with an inexpensive receiver. It takes less floor space, will sound better than having a separate sub and gives you much more control over the bass in your room.

And these apply about adding a sub to the Fours with the Controller:

Currently if you have a tower speaker on the left and right channel of the Controller set to large and you add a subwoofer to the system, you get crap because of the phase problems and overlapping outputs. The new ,very soon to be shipping, software upgrade for the Controller works differently. The following only applies if you have NHT speakers.

If you set up a system without a subwoofer, the Controller will run any speakers capable of full range reproduction, full range. If you select a subwoofer in the setup, the Controller will then run any of these full range speakers down to 40Hz and then put a matching low pass filter on the subwoofer output at 40Hz. This will give the system maximum dynamic range and eliminate any comb filtering between the subwoofer and full range speaker.

Mark,

Regarding the software update in the Controller. The bass management still works in a conventional way with respect to my comments above. ie, if you have two small speakers on the L and R and a sub, the L and R get stuff above 80Hz. The sub gets everything below 80Hz and the LFE channel. Also if you have two large speakers on the L and R and a sub, the L and R get all bass in the L and LS, and R and RS, and C. The sub only gets LFE.

The are some complications to making the bass management exactly what we want it to be. We are still working on it.

What I saw indicated a refund just on purchase price and that shipping both ways was the customer's responsibility.

I could have sworn I saw that, but it may have just been a time limited special promotion though.

Regardless, I used to think the same thing about the "sealed vs ported", but no more. A good speaker or sub is just that, good, regardless of it's design. ;)

The LFE and the CC speaker's low pass.

Yeah, I meant low pass.:o

What model Velo, what X-over freq., and how big is the room?

Okay. I think I'm not 'satisfied' with my HT consisting of Classic 3s for F/L/Rs and 3c for C. I'm using Def Tech Ref Sub. It's clear, but lacks dynamic and fullness/aggressiveness. The sound is just too thin for me. I like how the real theater sounds..... and wants something like that.

So..... I probably wants a tower and an Excellent center. I don't think the M6 is good enough.

So what is the 'best' for HT for around $3-4k range for 5 speakers? I think Dali low end sound pretty good, but I also like M&K s150..... I haven't heard M&K yet, but people seems to like them. Are these better than M6s????

And at 15% off the current price (well, actually ~13.04% offf, but you get the idea)...

Or even better yet, imagine at least 40% off these prices ID direct: ;)

New NHT prices starting October 1 (+15% across the board):

Controller - $3163
Power5 - $2300
Power2 - $1380

Xd system - $6900

Verve system- $2300

AZ - $460/pr
Two - $690/pr
Three - $920/pr
Fours - $2070/pr

AZ-C - $300
Two-C - $575
Three-C - $690

Ten - $690
Twelve - $978

M5 - $518 each
M6 - $690 each
L5 - $575 each

U1 - $1495
U2 - $1610

X1/X2 - $403
A1 - $460

OutdoorOne - $640/pr

IC1/iW1 - $230/pr
iC2/iW2 - $345/pr
iC3/iW3 - $460/pr
iC4 - $575/pr
iW4 - $1150/pr

Okay. I think I'm not 'satisfied' with my HT consisting of Classic 3s for F/L/Rs and 3c for C. I'm using Def Tech Ref Sub. It's clear, but lacks dynamic and fullness/aggressiveness. The sound is just too thin for me. I like how the real theater sounds..... and wants something like that.

So..... I probably wants a tower and an Excellent center. I don't think the M6 is good enough.

So what is the 'best' for HT for around $3-4k range for 5 speakers? I think Dali low end sound pretty good, but I also like M&K s150..... I haven't heard M&K yet, but people seems to like them. Are these better than M6s????

M6s are Stereophile Class A baby. Tell M&K to put that in their pipe and smoke it! :p

Evos IMO are definitely better than Classics for HT (and rock music). ;)

Just curious though, but how can you say you like the M&Ks if you haven't even heard them yet? :confused:

I agree. Although, if you look at the competition, the Three/Fours/3C can stand the price hike.

I don't know, you can now get a pair of Revel F12s AND a C12 for what a pair of Fours go for now.

Not to turn this into an SVS thread but the PB10-ISD is very fast and musical but is still able to make a 16Hz test tone so deep that it shakes the room's foundation. You sense it more that actually hear it. Great match for the Classic Threes. I can only imagine what the PB13 Ultra can do.

At times, I'm tempted by the PB13 Ultra, but I can't even use all that the entry-level PB10 provides.


Yep, the original 10" ISD driver was never offered an upgrade like all the rest of them in the line were because it was supposedly already actually equivalent to the Plus driver at the time. :D

*LThree, wall-mounted L5-style Three or 3C for surround

I'd definitely upgrade my AZs to the "LThree", and I'd sure as hell start saving for a cheaper Xd.

Yep, I agree, that model would definitely sell, and prolly actually even help increase sells of other models in the line as well.

Well, I am at another option. Use the B6's or a pair of SVS PC-Ultra 13's? I know the Ultra's are more, but I have the blessing of my SO now. So are the PC-Ultra's the easy Choice as far as SPL and SQ? I can put the Ultra's directly behind the M6's on the P6 stands.

MF

I think what you should do is trade me your JLA F113 for a pair of B6s, A1s, and an X1. :p

I don't know, you can now get a pair of Revel F12s AND a C12 for what a pair of Fours go for now.

I don't know, you can now get a Honda Accord ANDa Yaris for the price of an Audi A4 Quattro..........

Okay. I think I'm not 'satisfied' with my HT consisting of Classic 3s for F/L/Rs and 3c for C. I'm using Def Tech Ref Sub. It's clear, but lacks dynamic and fullness/aggressiveness. The sound is just too thin for me. I like how the real theater sounds..... and wants something like that.

So..... I probably wants a tower and an Excellent center. I don't think the M6 is good enough.

So what is the 'best' for HT for around $3-4k range for 5 speakers? I think Dali low end sound pretty good, but I also like M&K s150..... I haven't heard M&K yet, but people seems to like them. Are these better than M6s????

Not everyone likes the sound of sealed speakers as the tight bass can be mistaken for thin bass, so maybe ported is the way to go for you. If you want what the theaters have then get klipsch or JBL, as most theaters use one of these brands. Otherwise get a better sub, maybe that will help.

I don't know, you can now get a Honda Accord ANDa Yaris for the price of an Audi A4 Quattro..........

Which might could be actually justified when the Audi A4 actually does outperform either the Accord or the Yaris. :p

For example, Stereophile rates the F12 as Class B, and refresh my memory once again, but what do they rate the Three as? ;)

So what is the 'best' for HT for around $3-4k range for 5 speakers? I think Dali low end sound pretty good, but I also like M&K s150..... I haven't heard M&K yet, but people seems to like them. Are these better than M6s????

I don't think there's an M&K that can touch an M6 on its best day. Dalis are pretty good though. What happened to the Fours?

Which might could be actually justified when the Audi A4 actually does outperform either the Accord or the Yaris. :p

Never driven an A4, I guess?

For example, Stereophile rates the F12 as Class B, and refresh my memory once again, but what do they rate the Three as? ;)

Even if Stereophile weren't a biased magazine with completely idiotic ratings, since when did we start comparing $1500 towers to $800 bookshelf speakers?

Never driven an A4, I guess?

No I haven't, but then again, I'm not the one who always uses car analogy comparisons for speakers/subs all the time either whenever I have no other argument to try to use as a fallback when all else fails. :D

Even if Stereophile weren't a biased magazine with completely idiotic ratings, since when did we start comparing $1500 towers to $800 bookshelf speakers?

Uhh, those bookshelves are no longer $800, they're now $920 (but then again, you already knew that, didn't you?), and since they simply haven't reviewed the Fours, the Threes were the only obvious frame of reference for comparison. Maybe they would rate the Fours as Class B if they reviewed them, but unless and until they do, we'll never know. But one thing we do know for sure without a doubt, they already have the $570 per pair cheaper F12s. ;)

Stereophile aside, as for personal preference and experience, I had a pair of Fours, and I traded them for a pair of F12s (as a part of a bigger package deal), and I still would not hesitate to do so all over again knowing more now than I did then. ;)

The whole point is, contrary to what you seem to think (about the Fours anyway), IMO NHT definitely didn't help themselves with these recent price increases. I'm sure F12 sales will have at least some increase in sales as a direct result of it. For example, my local NHT/Revel dealer was already pushing the F12s over Fours anyway, even before the price increase, so I'm more than sure he will now try to steer more customers to the F12s now than ever before, and have a much easier time of it at that.

BTW, are you trying to say that the Xd Class A rating is "idiotic" or "biased"?

I don't think there's an M&K that can touch an M6 on its best day.

You got that right! :cool:

I haven't heard the M&K S-150 but 'based' on reviews and being all THX, they may be good for HT. I heard M6 once as stereo at a shop, but it's not enough to know how good it is for HT. For bookshelf type such as the M6, I just don't know if it'll fill the room.. I haven't heard a bookshelf type for HT to be as good as tower. Tower just move more air. What I'm looking for is almost pure HT, that is, 90% HT. 10% for SACD once in a while. The speakers must meet these requirement: $3000-$4000 range (used/discount), Very Dynamic, Loud, Clean/Clear/Accurate, Fill a 'Large' room, Lots of IMPACT etc.... You get the idea... But at the same time, my ear can't hurt!!! And the Classic 3s all around just doesn't cut it. Even when I had the Classic 4s in the front, HT was still too thin, although it is a 'little' better than 3s all around. The B&W 802Ds/HTM2D and Def Tech 7100/3000 was more dynamic for HT with much more impact.

Regarding the Classic 4s, I took it out of my HT and use it for 2 channel along with the U2 system for the 'thump' when listening to disco/european dance. I was gonna use the 3s/U2 but it just wasn't good enough. The 4s are just way better speakers than the 3s, no contest there. Fuller sound, more refine high, accurate, you name it. In fact, the 4s are soooooo good that I can't go back to the 802Ds, that's why I sold those 802Ds. Right now, I can't see myself selling those 4s, they are just THAT GOOD. Either that, or I got NHT's reference pairs from the rest of the 4s that were made.

But, here is what I'm looking for as HT (90%) with my Def Tech Ref Sub. I haven't heard ANY setup so.... I know this is an NHT thread, but be honest. I don't want to change speakers soon again. Any idea?

NHT
C: M6
F/L: M6 with P6
R/R: M6 or M5

Kplisch
C: RC-64
F/L: RF-83
R/R: RF-52

Totem
C: Model-1 Signature
F/L: Forrest
R/R: Arrow

Dali
C: IKON® Vokal 2
F/L: IKON® 7
R/R: IKON® 5

The M6 is *fantastic* for HT. It's two small sins are easily forgivable. The small lack of resolution compared to, say, the Four or Xd or higher end Revels, actually makes them easier to listen to with a bad sounding movie. The soundstage isn't quite as precise and big as the Fours, but with 5 or 7 speakers going, it's not an issue. Being acoustic suspension and the exact same speaker is a big advantage over the others. The Klipsch are efficient, but not as refined and sound "boxy". The Totems are very refined, but have not dynamic capability like the M6 does. I compared the Forrest or Arrow to the Threes and the Threes pretty well killed them in resolution and imaging. The Dalis are generally nice and probably would give the M6 a good tussle on music but not sure about HT. The thing I don't like about the Fours/Threes occasionally on HT is that some sound tracks really sound awfully strident with the compression and poor mastering. So they're picky about having better recordings.

I think what you should do is trade me your JLA F113 for a pair of B6s, A1s, and an X1. :p
I guess that answers my question! :p
Since one Ultra is on par with a f113, I guess two Ultra's might just squash the B6's. Yeah, I found a local guy that I could get the B6 setup cheap! About half of the dual PC-ultra's. But if I can get them and the SO will accept them, I guess it's a "no-brainer" to go for the Ultra's.

P.S. Now that I am going to couple them with a pair of SVS PC-Ultra 13's directly behind the M6's on the P6 stands, I "think" I will have a "rocking" HT setup! :)

Btw, my two cents on the M6. I prefer it over the Fours myself. Soundstage is not as big as the Fours, but that is the only thing it gives up to them that I like. In my room the imaging of the M6's is locked in much tighter. I know John will say, in the right circumstances/setup, he believes the imaging would be slightly better with the Fours.
As far as being dynamic, the M6 is in another league (Mark will be glad to hear he was right, I'm sure he did not have any doubts though :p ). I thought they would be at least comparable, but for HT the easy choice for me was the M6.

MF

I guess that answers my question! :p
Since one Ultra is on par with a f113, I guess two Ultra's might just squash the B6's. Yeah, I found a local guy that I could get the B6 setup cheap! About half of the dual PC-ultra's. But if I can get them and the SO will accept them, I guess it's a "no-brainer" to go for the Ultra's.

Don't sell the B6s short. They play incredibly loud and they never break and are great sounding subs, especially at a good price. The *only* failure I've had was one guy had his surround come loose on one section. I stupidly offered to glue it back down, but he wanted a new driver. So I tried and tried and tried to get the driver out. Jack can tell you what the end result looked like by the time I gave up and sent it back for extraction.........

I think there is a lot of emphasis on the idea that the louder a sub plays, the better it is, but I've never heard anyone say the T6s don't play loud enough. And it does sound excellent. If all NHT wanted was high output, they could have done that by slapping a couple of drivers in a cardboard tube with two or three or four big ports.

Don't sell the B6s short. They play incredibly loud and they never break and are great sounding subs, especially at a good price. The *only* failure I've had was one guy had his surround come loose on one section. I stupidly offered to glue it back down, but he wanted a new driver. So I tried and tried and tried to get the driver out. Jack can tell you what the end result looked like by the time I gave up and sent it back for extraction.........

I think there is a lot of emphasis on the idea that the louder a sub plays, the better it is, but I've never heard anyone say the T6s don't play loud enough. And it does sound excellent. If all NHT wanted was high output, they could have done that by slapping a couple of drivers in a cardboard tube with two or three or four big ports.
John,

I understand, but as stated many days ago, I am almost 100% HT now, and will be for the foreseeable future. I'm guessing the B6's (even with the 20Hz mod.) are not going to come close to the +100dB output at 16Hz that the twin Ultra 13's can provide. From what I hear, they can also hold their own for music now too. I guess the proofs in the pudding on that one though. I guess that is the beauty of the 45 day return policy.

MF

Btw, my two cents on the M6. I prefer it over the Fours myself. Soundstage is not as big as the Fours, but that is the only thing it gives up to them that I like. In my room the imaging of the M6's is locked in much tighter. I know John will say, in the right circumstances/setup, he believes the imaging would be slightly better with the Fours.

That's true. I know John has a standard saying he always uses of something along the lines of "The Threes/Fours *CAN* image better than the M5s/T5s and M6/T6s *IF* ... blah blah blah", but the M5s/M6s are literally foolproof to set up for great imaging. You simply make sure they are even with each other, point them straight ahead, make sure the tweeters are to the inside, and that's pretty much about it, you are all set and can forget about it forevermore after that, regardless of the room they are in. ;)

FWIW, I had my Fours set up with slight toe in with optimal placement of about 14" from the front wall behind them in a relatively large (wide), well damped room, and I still didn't think they imaged any better than the T5s or even the 2.9s for that matter in the dead center "sweet spot". Just as good maybe, but certainly not noticeably better. The Fours definitely throw a wider soundstage though, no doubt about that, but for rock music, which is primarily what I listen to, it doesn't really matter. I prefer the dynamics of the Evos. There are definitely IMO some kinds of music that the Classics are better suited for though, I just don't listen to it. :o

As far as being dynamic, the M6 is in another league (Mark will be glad to hear he was right, I'm sure he did not have any doubts though :p ). I thought they would be at least comparable, but for HT the easy choice for me was the M6.

MF

I hate to say I told you so, but, well, I did! :p Which should catch leepalao's attention since that seems to be exactly what he is after: :cool:

I heard M6 once as stereo at a shop, but it's not enough to know how good it is for HT. For bookshelf type such as the M6, I just don't know if it'll fill the room.. I haven't heard a bookshelf type for HT to be as good as tower. Tower just move more air. What I'm looking for is almost pure HT, that is, 90% HT. 10% for SACD once in a while. The speakers must meet these requirement: $3000-$4000 range (used/discount), Very Dynamic, Loud, Clean/Clear/Accurate, Fill a 'Large' room, Lots of IMPACT etc.... You get the idea... But at the same time, my ear can't hurt!!!

Lee, you should PM forum member tonyg, who has posted occasionally on this thread. He went from M&K S150s to M6s if I remember correctly, even though he has moved on to something else now.

John,

I understand, but as stated many days ago, I am almost 100% HT now, and will be for the foreseeable future. I'm guessing the B6's (even with the 20Hz mod.) are not going to come close to the +100dB output at 16Hz that the twin Ultra 13's can provide. From what I hear, they can also hold their own for music now too. I guess the proofs in the pudding on that one though. I guess that is the beauty of the 45 day return policy.

MF

I did state that a pair of B6s would trump a pair of SB12s, but trust me on this, dual PC13Us will stomp all over a pair of B6s in any way you want to compare them (and that's in no way dissing the B6s either). :eek:

Edit - I'll still trade you a pair of B6s for your JLA F113 though, seriously. :D

Lee, you should PM forum member tonyg, who has posted occasionally on this thread. He went from M&K S150s to M6s if I remember correctly, even though he has moved on to something else now.
The M&Ks have a very dry sound that I eventually found quite irritating, particularly with music. The M6s are much better all-arounders, and has been stated in this thread are easy to position for good imaging and sound good with music and movies. They have a very even-handed frequency response and sound composed even at very loud levels.

The S150s sounded rather gritty on top and were somewhat closed-in. Good for the time I had them but bettered by the NHTs.

Thank you for all your advices. The M&K is off the list.
Today I went to Ultimate to see the Klipsch Reference, and I think they are just too big. I didn't listen to them but I didn't like the look already (they look very cheaply made) so therefore they are off the list as well. I can't find any place to hear the M6s as HT because those looks very good, but the 'bookshelf' thing kind of scares me. I want full sound that can fill a 'large' room. My dealer told me that the totem model-1 signature center is 'BETTER' than the m6. And with the forrest as front, it will be a lot better than M6s.... I just can't listen to them so I don't want to take a chance yet... I know the Dali halicon was pretty good for HT as I've heard it, but those do cost more. I don't know how their Ikon sounds yet... I guess right now, NHT/Dali/Totem are left. I'll look around for Triad/PSB as well as those looks good. Sorry guys, I just can't stand the classic for HT.

With a sub the M6 will play louder than you can stand. Without a sub, look elsewhere: M6 is designed to play with a sub.

Thank you for all your advices. The M&K is off the list.
Today I went to Ultimate to see the Klipsch Reference, and I think they are just too big. I didn't listen to them but I didn't like the look already (they look very cheaply made) so therefore they are off the list as well. I can't find any place to hear the M6s as HT because those looks very good, but the 'bookshelf' thing kind of scares me. I want full sound that can fill a 'large' room. My dealer told me that the totem model-1 signature center is 'BETTER' than the m6. And with the forrest as front, it will be a lot better than M6s.... I just can't listen to them so I don't want to take a chance yet... I know the Dali halicon was pretty good for HT as I've heard it, but those do cost more. I don't know how their Ikon sounds yet... I guess right now, NHT/Dali/Totem are left. I'll look around for Triad/PSB as well as those looks good. Sorry guys, I just can't stand the classic for HT.

Well, again, the Totems could be better in some ways, they should be for the price. You have to think about whether you like soft dome tweeters. I personally don't, but some people prefer them. The other potential issue is matching and dispersion. The M6's more compact driver spacing and 3-way design means better dispersion than a typical MTM and the matching design means a more coherent sound. That doesn't mean you'll prefer the M6s, but with home theater, there's a lot more to it than simple "better". How a system performs as a coherent system is as important as the actual quality of the individual parts.

Totem Forest uses Aluminum dome tweeter, while the Model 1 Sig center uses an alloy dome. No soft domes to be found.

Doh! They looked like soft domes. Doesn't the Arrow use a soft dome?

Doh! They looked like soft domes. Doesn't the Arrow use a soft dome?

The Arro does use a textile dome. One thing I like about Vince's philosophy: he uses the best driver for the task. Soft domes, metal domes, they all sing.

The thing I don't like about the Fours/Threes occasionally on HT is that some sound tracks really sound awfully strident with the compression and poor mastering. So they're picky about having better recordings.
__________________
John

In other words, they're accurate transducers. That's what I love about NHT's. They are true high fidelity speakers. They don't editorialize.

The Arro does use a textile dome. One thing I like about Vince's philosophy: he uses the best driver for the task. Soft domes, metal domes, they all sing.

Eh, I didn't think much of the tweeter on the Arro. Decent, but it had that typical "shhhsshy" soft dome sound. I think metal domes have gotten to the point in price/performance where soft domes just can't keep up, even exotic ones. The M6 tweeter sounds better (more invisible) to me than any soft dome I've ever heard.

Leepalao,

There's another option that could be tried with the Fours that I haven't tried yet, but will. The new NAD with PSB designed Audyssey curves could very well make the Four/Threes more agreeable. They mellow out the top end a bit and don't kill the bass.

That's true. I know John has a standard saying he always uses of something along the lines of "The Threes/Fours *CAN* image better than the M5s/T5s and M6/T6s *IF* ... blah blah blah", but the M5s/M6s are literally foolproof to set up for great imaging. You simply make sure they are even with each other, point them straight ahead, make sure the tweeters are to the inside, and that's pretty much about it, you are all set and can forget about it forevermore after that, regardless of the room they are in. ;)

Yeah, the Evo's are really bullet proof. And with a good (and properly integrated) sub, they are dynamic as hell, while imaging like the devil.

I hate to say I told you so, but, well, I did! :p Which should catch leepalao's attention since that seems to be exactly what he is after: :cool:
Yeah, right, you loved telling me that! :p :D

I did state that a pair of B6s would trump a pair of SB12s, but trust me on this, dual PC13Us will stomp all over a pair of B6s in any way you want to compare them (and that's in no way dissing the B6s either). :eek:

Edit - I'll still trade you a pair of B6s for your JLA F113 though, seriously. :D
Yeah, I figured it was a no brainer to go with the PC-Ultra's. Them coupled with the M6's (powered by the 400w Sunfire), will probably suffice for a decent HT, and when I have time, adequate for music listening. :D

I'm sure you would trade the B6's for the f113. Sorry but that $ from the f113 is going toward the Ultra's. :p;):D

Yeah, I figured it was a no brainer to go with the PC-Ultra's. Them coupled with the M6's (powered by the 400w Sunfire), will probably suffice for a decent HT, and when I have time, adequate for music listening. :D

Don't go so far out on a limb next time with such bold, brash statements! :p;)

I'm sure you would trade the B6's for the f113. Sorry but that $ from the f113 is going toward the Ultra's. :p;):D

Hey, you needed the B6s and didn't the F113, and I was just selflessly trying to hook a fellow NHT brother up! :D

Don't go so far out on a limb next time with such bold, brash statements! :p;)
I should really watch that! :D



Hey, you needed the B6s and didn't the F113, and I was just selflessly trying to hook a fellow NHT brother up! :D
You are just too damn selfless for your own good! :p:D

The M6 tweeter sounds better (more invisible) to me than any soft dome I've ever heard.

I couldn't find a copy of it online to copy and paste the text from, but I have a hard copy of a review that Howard Ferstler did of the M6s/W1s for the Audiophile Voice, and here was what he had to say about the tweeter (note that I had to actually type this out too:():

One remarkable thing involved the tweeter performance, which was ruler flat from 3 kHz on up to 17 kHz. The variation over that range did not even add up +/- 1 dB, and the response was only 2 dB down at 20 kHz. The only other substantial system I have reviewed that had response this flat in the top 2.5 octaves was NHT's own ST4, which uses a cosmetically different version of this same tweeter.

Here is his original comments about the ST4's tweeter when he was with Sensible Sound:

By themselves, the ST4 minitowers had one of the flattest treble curves I have yet measured. The worst I plotted was +/- 1 dB from 4 kHz on up to 16 kHz. I ran several other curves just to make sure I was not seeing things -- and one plot was actually a straight line over that range! Only three other systems I have reviewed have been as flat: my own Allison IC-20 systems ($5,200 per pair in 1991), the $5,500 per pair Dunlavy Cantatas that I reviewed in Issue 87, and the $2,500 per pair Dunlavy SC-II units I reviewed in Issue 70. The ST4s' treble was considerably more extended than the $1,550/pr (with stands) AR Phantom 8.3 systems that I reviewed in Issue 82. The latter began to roll off rather rapidly at about 10 kHz, and the AR units also could not reach as deep into the bass range as the ST4s.

from:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/NHT+ST4%2c+SB3%2c+SB1%2c+SC1%2c+and+SW10+loudspeakers.+(Equi pment)-a085676670

Note that he actually bought the SA package for himself as his personal system at that time after that review too. ;)

Leepalao,

There's another option that could be tried with the Fours that I haven't tried yet, but will. The new NAD with PSB designed Audyssey curves could very well make the Four/Threes more agreeable. They mellow out the top end a bit and don't kill the bass.

Are you referring to the NAD T175? If so, would what you said apply to the Threes as well?

Yeah, it should. I'm going to try it as soon as the T775 comes in and I'll let you know. Of course, there's the NHT Controller which has its own tweaks. Still, the M6s ;)

hi everyone,
i have a question pertaining my ht system.
Rotel RSX-1055
Rotel RB991
oppo DV-981HD
Monster Reference PowerCenter HTS 3500 MKII
NHT 2.5i Front
NHT M6 Center
NHT M6 Rear
NHT SuperZero Surround Back
Velodyne HGS-12 on auralex gramma
Sony KDL-40S2010

i have the nht 2.5i's in the front with the nht m6 in the center. also i have the m6's in the rear with a superzero for the surround back. i was wondering if i should switch the front with the rear m6's on p6 pedestals and put the 2.5i's in the rear?

ps- also if you guys have pics of your nht systems please post them on my nht forum at:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=27087

Yes, definitely. Nothing will match your M6 CC like a pair of M6s mains. :D

Still, the M6s ;)

Do you have Robert Reina writing your posts now? That almost sounded something like this: :p

The Nola Mini had a natural midrange as well as extended and detailed highs. Midrange inner detail was more revealing through the Nola, however, and its bass extension and high-level dynamic capabilities were superior to those of the Classic Three.

from:

http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1106nht/

i forgot to mention i am starting to listen to 2channel music and wonder if my 2 channel sound will diminish with the switch of the nht 2.5i's with the m6?

It will actually improve.

tonygeno,
how is that. i am totally confused if i should really try and switch them. the nht 2.5i's at the moment sound great for 2 channel w/without the velodyne sub. how will the m6 sound better than the 2.5i?

M6s and virtually any properly integrated sub will easily top a pair 2.5is. Even a pair of ST-4s would top a pair of 2.5is. ;)

However, you should PM Alimental about a crossover upgrade he had, or at least used to, for the 2.5is that was supposed to make them almost as good as the ST-4s. ;)

mark russ,
thanks for the info. so now if i get the upgrade, should i stick with them in the front or still switch them?

Most definitely still switch them, even if you got the upgrade for the 2.5is.

mark,
would you consider the velodyne hgs-12 a properly integrated sub?

mark,
would you consider the velodyne hgs-12 a properly integrated sub?

Properly integrated means that you've integrated it properly, i.e. have it set up properly. Any sub can be properly (or improperly) integrated.

M6s are more accurate, with a better, smoother treble, more detailed, but smoother upper midrange, more fleshed out lower midrange.

i think i am going to do the switch then. i planned on doing last weekend from a recommendation from leepalao but did not have time. man i am going to miss the black gloss finish on my front soundstage. the finish matched my velodyne hgs 12 perfectly
art

Well I had a interesting presentation at a potential client's house yesterday, the gentleman of the house was a NHT/NAD freak. :eek:

In their main system, he had a pair of T5s for mains, a M5 CC, and a pair of L5s for surrounds all driven by a NAD T773 AVR.

There was like a library/home office/study/media room with a little 2 channel rig of SB-3s on Last Stands with a NAD C320BEE integrated amp and a C521BEE CD player.

Then finally, in their bedroom was a pair of ST-4s driven by a NAD C370 integrated amp and C541 CD player.

I knew he must have obviously got them all from the local dealer here since he also sales NAD and usually recommends NAD electronics with NHT.

He said he absolutely loved the T5s and SB-3s, but wasn't quite as happy with the ST-4s for some reason.

I asked was he a member here at AVS, but he wasn't.

At any rate, I got the job, and if I didn't know any better, I'd almost think it may have been because I knew what his speakers were more than anything else. :D

i think i am going to do the switch then. i planned on doing last weekend from a recommendation from leepalao but did not have time. man i am going to miss the black gloss finish on my front soundstage. the finish matched my velodyne hgs 12 perfectly
art

Look at it this way, now your mains will match your CC, as well as sound a hell of a lot better in the process to boot. ;)

mark russ,
thanks man, i am wondering now how i should face my nht 2.5i's. face them straight like i have them now, or have them sideways parallel with the rear wall?

What you should do IMO, is sell them, and then get some L5s, or another set of M6s/P6s for surrounds. ;)

why?

artex4special,
If I remember correctly, you already have a pair of M6s..... Before you do the move, you 'should' try them as 2 channel and see if you like them first..... Remember, a good tower will always be better than a good bookshelf for 2 channel..

Well I had a interesting presentation at a potential client's house yesterday, the gentleman of the house was a NHT/NAD freak. :eek:



I like the NAD NHT combo as well. My local dealer pairs the NHT speakers with NAD equipment.

NAD and NHT together? In one system? That's crazy talk! :)

artex4special,
If I remember correctly, you already have a pair of M6s..... Before you do the move, you 'should' try them as 2 channel and see if you like them first..... Remember, a good tower will always be better than a good bookshelf for 2 channel..

I not sure where you heard this but this isn't always true. Yea a pair of F52 will sound better than a pair of M6, but at 10 times the cost. Mark and myself both have compared the m6 to a lot of different towers. I replaced my 2.9's with m5 because the m5 was smoother and more dynamic. Also you keep refering to the m6 as a bookshlf speaker. It is much more than a bookshelf speaker. In my mind it is more like a monitor speaker and it does play lound and clean. In fact the m5/6 really sound good with clean powerfull amps. I had mine on some pretty good amps and the cleaner the power the sweeter the m5/6 sounded. Of couse this can be said for a lot of other speakers too but not at the price of what you can buy the m5/6 for.
Allen

NAD and NHT together? In one system? That's crazy talk! :)

Speaking of which, what do you guys think would be a better power amp section only for 2 channel music, a NAD C325BEE integrated amp, or a NAD T753 AVR?

Haven't seen any bench test specs on the C325, but here is HTM's 2 channel measurements of the T753:

This graph shows that the T 753's left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 110.7 watts and 1% distortion at 136.1 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 122.6 watts and 1% distortion at 146.3 watts.

from:

http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/105nad/index2.html

Again this comparison would be between the only power amp sections only when ran from the main-ins and using a NHT Controller as the pre-amp. The T753 does seem to be a bit more powerful, but the C325 does have a toroidal transformer while the T753 doesn't.

Remember, a good tower will always be better than a good bookshelf for 2 channel..

I not sure where you heard this but this isn't always true.

As usual, I have to agree with Allen here. I have a pair of Revel bookshelves that I would not hesitate to put up by themselves without a sub or subs any day of the week against either of your pair of towers on 2 channel, the NHT Fours or the B&W 802s. Obviously, they would give up a little low end extension (but really not as much as you might think though), but I would still take them over either set of previously mentioned towers as is, and when you add in virtually any properly integrated sub or subs, the ball game is definitely over at that point.

And, I just happen to have a NHT sub/sat combo even better than the Revels. ;) You may have heard of them, they're called Xds. :D

Take a look around, in addition to Allen and myself, you also have TonyG and John saying the same thing too here about the M6s vs the 2.5is, even on 2 channel.

I like the NAD NHT combo as well. My local dealer pairs the NHT speakers with NAD equipment.

They go together like peanut butter and jelly. :cool:

For all you PB&J fans.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULt1DMxJikc

DekPM19/MarkRuss,
When we talk about a tower being better than a bookshelf, you can't bring other brands or changes into this because it just doesn't make sense, does it? If we want to truly be perfect for this case, then let's take the example of Classic 3 vs Classic 4, same line, drivers etc.... Want to add subs? Then to be fair, please add to both 3 and 4. If you add subs to a bookshelf, you are basically making changes to improve it. The 4s has subs built-in, but it IS part of it to start with. When I tried Classic 4s with U2, it just blow away classic 3/U2... Imaging a tower version of M6 or Xds??? Can you honestly say the bookshelf version is better?

Granted, this case started with 2.5is vs M6 for 2 channels so it will come down to his personal taste. But without adding a sub to M6, he won't get the full sound that he is getting now with his current tower for 2 channels. Since these are different lines of the same brand, again, it's more of a personal taste because of the different sound.

Anyway, back to my Classic 4!!! These rocks!

hi,
i tested the m6 vs my current 2.5i's for the front sound stage. i did notice a bit more resolution and soundstage apperance for ht, though, for two channel i honestly liked the way the 2.5i's sounded. the sound just seemed a bit more transparent than the m6 did. not sure why, but my ear just decided it was happier with that setup. so i think i am going to keep the 2.5i's up front for a bit. i could always change, or, use mark russ's idea and buy two more m6/p6's.

please don't hate my guys for my choice of the nht 2.5i over the m6 for two channel! ha

Just a heads up, but there is a set of Xds on ebay right now located in Maryland. An AVS'er in the area might be able to get a nice deal. I am not the seller, btw.

Just a heads up, but there is a set of Xds on ebay right now located in Maryland. An AVS'er in the area might be able to get a nice deal. I am not the seller, btw.

Damn! Local pickup only.

have a question. why is it that nht does not make dipole/bipole speakers anymore? just curious

have a question. why is it that nht does not make dipole/bipole speakers anymore? just curious

Jack Hidley of NHT came in here to comment on this issue. It's in one of the earlier posts here.

tv surfer, can you clarify what page?

DekPM19/MarkRuss,
When we talk about a tower being better than a bookshelf, you can't bring other brands or changes into this because it just doesn't make sense, does it? If we want to truly be perfect for this case, then let's take the example of Classic 3 vs Classic 4, same line, drivers etc.... Want to add subs? Then to be fair, please add to both 3 and 4. If you add subs to a bookshelf, you are basically making changes to improve it. The 4s has subs built-in, but it IS part of it to start with. When I tried Classic 4s with U2, it just blow away classic 3/U2... Imaging a tower version of M6 or Xds??? Can you honestly say the bookshelf version is better?

Granted, this case started with 2.5is vs M6 for 2 channels so it will come down to his personal taste. But without adding a sub to M6, he won't get the full sound that he is getting now with his current tower for 2 channels. Since these are different lines of the same brand, again, it's more of a personal taste because of the different sound.

Anyway, back to my Classic 4!!! These rocks!

My main point was don't think of the m6 like a little bookshelf speakers and say it want play as loud as a tower which isn't true. For HT having 5 or 7 m5/6 speakers all around will blow you away for HT. Plus you don't have to have massive amps to really drive them (even though I like a good clean amp on them). Add two PB13 and George Lucus himself will probally want to come and watch movies with you. I have my system calibrated to 75bd with VE and the M6 up front and 2 m5 in the back sound good. I know their are better and I have been looking at some new towers not NHT but to think of and M5/6 as a little wimpy bookshelf is just wrong.
Allen

tv surfer, can you clarify what page?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10049166#post10049166

I also recall a discussion that there is technically no such thing as a dipole speaker, but I can't find that one and I don't remember concretely if it was Jack who said it.

thanks tvsurfer

have a question. why is it that nht does not make dipole/bipole speakers anymore? just curious


They don't accurately render the rear channels either spatially or tonally.

I also recall a discussion that there is technically no such thing as a dipole speaker, but I can't find that one and I don't remember concretely if it was Jack who said it.

That was me, talking about wall mount bipole speakers. Those are really wide dispersion monopoles, if you think about it.

My main point was don't think of the m6 like a little bookshelf speakers and say it want play as loud as a tower which isn't true. For HT having 5 or 7 m5/6 speakers all around will blow you away for HT. Plus you don't have to have massive amps to really drive them (even though I like a good clean amp on them). Add two PB13 and George Lucus himself will probally want to come and watch movies with you. I have my system calibrated to 75bd with VE and the M6 up front and 2 m5 in the back sound good. I know their are better and I have been looking at some new towers not NHT but to think of and M5/6 as a little wimpy bookshelf is just wrong.
Allen
Then I guess your point is mistaken. That was a comparison for 2 channel, that is, music in 2 channel? For HT, I gladly recommend him to get the M6 because it match the center. But as you can see, he is more fond of his tower for 2 channel, therefore it is good that he tried it first. Based on most people here, the M6 can play loud, but that wasn't the point. But if you want to really compare the M6, then do so against the T6. Can it play louder than the T6? It is better than the T6? Which one is better for music and HT? M6 or T6? I don't know about you, but I would think that T6 all around would blow away M6 all around, non?

Anyway, again, back to my classic 4s for 2 channel. The 3s are going for sale!

Then I guess your point is mistaken. That was a comparison for 2 channel, that is, music in 2 channel? For HT, I gladly recommend him to get the M6 because it match the center. But as you can see, he is more fond of his tower for 2 channel, therefore it is good that he tried it first. Based on most people here, the M6 can play loud, but that wasn't the point. But if you want to really compare the M6, then do so against the T6. Can it play louder than the T6? It is better than the T6? Which one is better for music and HT? M6 or T6? I don't know about you, but I would think that T6 all around would blow away M6 all around, non?

Anyway, again, back to my classic 4s for 2 channel. The 3s are going for sale!

^^^ OK, I wasn't going to say anything about your obvious ignorance before, but now on top of not knowing much, now you are just plain being rude to a well known, liked, and respected poster in this thread, so now I will point it out :mad:

DekPM19/MarkRuss,
When we talk about a tower being better than a bookshelf, you can't bring other brands or changes into this because it just doesn't make sense, does it?

Why not? You were the one who said "a good tower will always be better than a good bookshelf for 2 channel". You didn't say anything about that it only pertained to comparing a specific brands FS model against a BS in their line. :rolleyes:

I also still stand by my statement comparing my Revel M22 bookshelf models against either of your towers - I honestly would not trade them for either your Fours or especially your 802s straight up even, let alone the NHT Xds. ;)

If we want to truly be perfect for this case, then let's take the example of Classic 3 vs Classic 4, same line, drivers etc.... Want to add subs? Then to be fair, please add to both 3 and 4. If you add subs to a bookshelf, you are basically making changes to improve it. The 4s has subs built-in, but it IS part of it to start with. When I tried Classic 4s with U2, it just blow away classic 3/U2

OK then, lets stick to what you're babbling about here with that specific example, and it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The Four is over $1000 more than the Three, so why can't you add a $1000 sub to the Threes (and then you'd still be at the same price as the Fours)? Furthermore, I very seriously doubt you have the Fours set up properly with the U2 either for that matter.

Of course, judging by the picture you submitted, it appears you are either not knowledgeable enough or simply too inexperienced to set them up properly to tell a difference anyway even if there was one. If you didn't have the Threes set up any better than you did in your picture when you auditioned them, then there is little wonder why you didn't like them.

I had a pair of Fours, and I still have Threes and a U1. IMO, a pair of Threes with a properly set up U1 or U2 (let alone dual W1s) will easily top a pair of Fours any day. However, if you bi-amp the Fours with the X2 and a couple of A1s, then it is a much fairer comparison, but then again, you are also talking about over an additional $1300 too. :(

Imaging a tower version of M6 or Xds??? Can you honestly say the bookshelf version is better?

I assume you meant to say imagine here instead of imaging? If so, I don't have to imagine, there was a "tower version" (as you call it) of M6s, they were called T6s, and they were nothing more than adding Evo subs to M6s. Oh, BTW, FWIW they were also rated by Stereophile as Class A, for music at that, not HT. :D

For actually less money than the T6s cost however, you could get M6s on P6 stands with dual W1 subs (instead of the B6 sub cabinets), and you had arguably better sub cabinets and in-arguably better sub placement options and flexibility for any given room. ;)

Mark, CHILL!!!!!!

You guys are arguing semantics. You're both right, you're both wrong. Holy cow. Let it go. Why do you work so hard to argue with people that basically agree with you?

Just a heads up, but there is a set of Xds on ebay right now located in Maryland. An AVS'er in the area might be able to get a nice deal. I am not the seller, btw.

Hmm... I have a friend that recently moved to Baltimore. That's going on the watch list!

Mark, CHILL!!!!!!

You guys are arguing semantics. You're both right, you're both wrong. Holy cow. Let it go. Why do you work so hard to argue with people that basically agree with you?

Pot this is the Kettle....:p

Hey, it takes one to know one!

Hey, it takes one to know one!

That was sort of the point.

That's what I meant. I know an argumentative SOB when I see one ;)

We need a "poking with a stick" smile :p but this one works....

Then I guess your point is mistaken. That was a comparison for 2 channel, that is, music in 2 channel? For HT, I gladly recommend him to get the M6 because it match the center. But as you can see, he is more fond of his tower for 2 channel, therefore it is good that he tried it first. Based on most people here, the M6 can play loud, but that wasn't the point. But if you want to really compare the M6, then do so against the T6. Can it play louder than the T6? It is better than the T6? Which one is better for music and HT? M6 or T6? I don't know about you, but I would think that T6 all around would blow away M6 all around, non?

Anyway, again, back to my classic 4s for 2 channel. The 3s are going for sale!


You are right I must have missed the point. But I now understand you are a newbie NHT owner because of your comments about the T6 compared to an M6.

M6 - Sits on top
B6 - Is on the bottom like a speaker stand

They produce a T6 when stacked togather.




Thanks Mark, for the support.
Allen

We need a "poking with a stick" smile :p but this one works....

Not so hard:cool:
Allen

^^^ OK, I wasn't going to say anything about your obvious ignorance before, but now on top of not knowing much, now you are just plain being rude to a well known, liked, and respected poster in this thread, so now I will point it out :mad:
I see that you're not so bad yourself either.


Why not? You were the one who said "a good tower will always be better than a good bookshelf for 2 channel". You didn't say anything about that it only pertained to comparing a specific brands FS model against a BS in their line. :rolleyes:
Well, I guess I didn't know that you need complete details on everything. If you can't realize that that was an general idea, then I can't help you. While you're at it, why not throw in Sony SS-MF650H VS Revel Ultima Gem2. You know me, based on my comment, I will surely pick the Sony.....


I also still stand by my statement comparing my Revel M22 bookshelf models against either of your towers - I honestly would not trade them for either your Fours or especially your 802s straight up even, let alone the NHT Xds. ;)
That is completely fine. You prefer the sound of your M22 over the 4s and 802Ds, there's nothing wrong with that. But if I was you, I would take the trade, sell 802Ds, and get another M22 and pocket the rest of the $$$. But, that's just me. Honestly.


OK then, lets stick to what you're babbling about here with that specific example, and it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The Four is over $1000 more than the Three, so why can't you add a $1000 sub to the Threes (and then you'd still be at the same price as the Fours)? Furthermore, I very seriously doubt you have the Fours set up properly with the U2 either for that matter.
It makes perfect sense. That is a perfect case of towers vs bookshelf (Classic 4s VS 3s). What you are doing is comparing the 3s with a Sub VS the Classic 4s. When you are adding extra stuff to make a product better than what it really is, anything goes, therefore this topic is pointless.


Of course, judging by the picture you submitted, it appears you are either not knowledgeable enough or simply too inexperienced to set them up properly to tell a difference anyway even if there was one. If you didn't have the Threes set up any better than you did in your picture when you auditioned them, then there is little wonder why you didn't like them.
So I guess you do know how to assume things. Anyway, what else can you tell me about the picture, such as... what camera and lens I'm using, then we'll go from there. That is just the first step to know why the picture is the way it is. Hint: a picture of products is made to look good while an evaluation of products must be correctly set up for testing. But of course, you probably already knew that.


I had a pair of Fours, and I still have Threes and a U1. IMO, a pair of Threes with a properly set up U1 or U2 (let alone dual W1s) will easily top a pair of Fours any day. However, if you bi-amp the Fours with the X2 and a couple of A1s, then it is a much fairer comparison, but then again, you are also talking about over an additional $1300 too. :(
Again, you are talking about "IF"... and adding this and that...


I assume you meant to say imagine here instead of imaging? If so, I don't have to imagine, there was a "tower version" (as you call it) of M6s, they were called T6s, and they were nothing more than adding Evo subs to M6s. Oh, BTW, FWIW they were also rated by Stereophile as Class A, for music at that, not HT. :D

For actually less money than the T6s cost however, you could get M6s on P6 stands with dual W1 subs (instead of the B6 sub cabinets), and you had arguably better sub cabinets and in-arguably better sub placement options and flexibility for any given room. ;)
The difference here is this. The T6 did exist. What you are doing is adding things to the M6, and then called it your own "M6/P6/W1" super speaker system.....

In case you haven't notice, artex4special preferred his 2.5i vs M6 for 2 channel. Cool, isn't it?

Okay, I'm out.

Okay, if I buy the XDs on eBay, how much do others think I could get for my almost-brand-new U2 system with the 20 Hz mod? There is not a scratch on them and I have all the original packaging - they have about 50-70 hours on them over 3 months. I also have an equally new pair of C3s, but might keep them for HT since I also have the C3C...

Peter

I see that you're not so bad yourself either.

Well, I guess I didn't know that you need complete details on everything. If you can't realize that that was an general idea, then I can't help you. While you're at it, why not throw in Sony SS-MF650H VS Revel Ultima Gem2. You know me, based on my comment, I will surely pick the Sony.....[/B]

Why not? That would make just as much sense as your self imposed criteria and conditions that you can't add a sub to one if you don't the other, despite the price. :p


That is completely fine. You prefer the sound of your M22 over the 4s and 802Ds, there's nothing wrong with that. But if I was you, I would take the trade, sell 802Ds, and get another M22 and pocket the rest of the $$$. But, that's just me. Honestly.

Yeah, I could also prolly sell a Bose Lifestyle system for more too, but I never will. :D


It makes perfect sense. That is a perfect case of towers vs bookshelf (Classic 4s VS 3s). What you are doing is comparing the 3s with a Sub VS the Classic 4s. When you are adding extra stuff to make a product better than what it really is, anything goes, therefore this topic is pointless.

So let me ask you, where is there a rule that you can't use a sub for 2 channel too (other than your own of course)? :rolleyes:

Not that it even matters since it is pretty much irrelevant anyway, but since you brought it up, if you will go back to the Threes and Fours immediate predecessors, the SB-3s and ST-4s, and check HTM's measurements on them, you will find that the SB-3s bookshelves actually had deeper bass extension than the floorstanding counterparts. ;)


So I guess you do know how to assume things. Anyway, what else can you tell me about the picture, such as... what camera and lens I'm using, then we'll go from there. That is just the first step to know why the picture is the way it is. Hint: a picture of products is made to look good while an evaluation of products must be correctly set up for testing. But of course, you probably already knew that.

Oh yeah, I'm more than sure that you went out of your way to rearrange all of that just to take a lovely picture to post here. :p


Again, you are talking about "IF"... and adding this and that...

It's not "if" when it in fact already "is", but that is semantics. Anyways, why the hell not, after all, you added a U2 to the Fours did you not, and I can pretty much damn well guarantee you that you prolly don't even have them set up properly. If anything, the Fours would prolly sound better in your room and system on their own than they do with the U2.

This, at it's element, is where we disagree. You seem to think that for some reason that you can't add a U2 to a pair of Threes to compare them to the Fours without a U2, despite the fact that the Fours actually cost even more than the Threes and U2 together. It is sheer ignorance at best and borderline stupidity at worst to impose that on oneself. More on that later at the end of the post ....


The difference here is this. The T6 did exist. What you are doing is adding things to the M6, and then called it your own "M6/P6/W1" super speaker system.....

Uhh, the fact the T6s (which was nothing more than an M6 on top of a separate Evolution sub cabinet) did exist was exactly my point. Glad to see you that were able to grasp at least that much. But here's another point you should also be able to grasp, but prolly won't be able to - the P6s and W1s also existed too, and guess what? - they still do to this very day. Not that it really matters, but that just goes to show how the sales of the "tower" held up compared to the "sub/sat" version which is still available.

In case you haven't notice, artex4special preferred his 2.5i vs M6 for 2 channel. Cool, isn't it?

Okay, I'm out.

And you must have missed the comment I originally made about that which I later edited it out due to what could have been interpreted as insensitivity to the handicapped in it? :D

Basically, it was pointing how he is even less experienced and/or knowledgeable than you. If he knew how to set up properly, even half an inkling, the 2.5is couldn't possibly hold a candle to the M6/Velo combo on 2 channel, but, he'll never even know what he is missing out on so long as he keeps listening to your idea that he can't use the sub with the M6s (which were actually designed to be used with a sub or subs at that) for 2 channel when comparing them to the 2.5i instead of taking the advise of virtually every other poster besides yourself here who has actually commented on it, all of whom obviously have much more first hand knowledge and experience about it than you do I might add. Oh well, it's his loss.

Mark, CHILL!!!!!!

You guys are arguing semantics. You're both right, you're both wrong. Holy cow. Let it go. Why do you work so hard to argue with people that basically agree with you?

If you think we were just arguing semantics and basically agreed, then you seriously need to go back and re-read it. :p

Pot this is the Kettle....:p


Yes, John can be an opinionated @$$ at times, just like I can, as he has basically admitted (just as I did). But at least we both have something to offer the other posters here on this thread with first hand experience about most, if not all, of the models discussed here. Besides John and myself, maybe pupton, James Elvick, and BachtoRock are about the only other ones who have actually heard most of the NHT models covered on this thread.

I'll admit I might have overreacted little, but is just pi$$ed me off a little that an obvious newbie who clearly doesn't know half as much as he tries to portray himself to made the comment he did to Allen. :o

If there's one poster on this thread who has never said a negative thing about anyone, it is Allen. He even tried to play the role of peacekeeper between John and Jack before when they had a minor blow up.

I think if you guys want to respond to a post that is incorrect or that in your opinion you feel is incorrect, it should be done in a way that is less combative or personal.
I'm not seeing a lot of tact here, and it is really annoying to go through a sequence of posts that has a lot of quotes and rebuttals. It can be tedious for someone(me) who is trying to absorb all of this info that is being thrown(hurled) at us.

There is a wealth of information on this site but you have to wade thru some pretty big egos to get to it sometimes.

After being in this thread for almost 2 years I went a completely different direction with my speaker purchase.
I had 2 in home demos of the C3s and even went so far as to remodel my den at a cost of $3600 with less reflective drywall in preparation for a third demo.
I never got to the 3rd in home demo. Wanted to try something different for the short term.
I then started looking at used Revel M22s plus a few others.

After some thought I contemplated a low cost system as sort of a stopgap.

Many ID systems were considered. av123 just couldn't seem to get the new proiduct shipped, and a 50% off sale on the Mirage Omni line caught my eye. Omni 350 towers, Omni 150 bookshelves and C150 center channel for $560 shipped from crutchfield!!!!!

So far my impressions are the 350s is a little overripe bass and the treble
lacks some air and extension, vocals and guitars are great and there is decent detail but none of the fatiguing treble energy that bothered me with the C3s.
Lush and warm and a great form factor.

I can't see how I could have done any better for the crazy low price and
having these inexpensive speakers will allow me to conduct a more leisirely search of some higher end stuff.

Still haven't ruled out any NHT product but the new higher MSRP bugs me.

I'm not seeing a lot of tact here,

To quote Cedric the Entertainer from I think it was "Intolerable Cruelty": :D:p;)

If you want tact, hire a tactician!

Mark, there are some advantages to a tower format. I do believe the M6 would perform better if it had a little more cabinet space and were tuned appropriately. Jack really crammed the drivers from a much bigger cabinet into the smallest possible design, but that was the form factor they needed. The VR3 was just too darned big, but you heard the advantages in the second and third octaves.

Still haven't ruled out any NHT product but the new higher MSRP bugs me.

You aren't the only one! :(:o:mad:

Many ID systems were considered. av123 just couldn't seem to get the new proiduct shipped, and a 50% off sale on the Mirage Omni line caught my eye. Omni 350 towers, Omni 150 bookshelves and C150 center channel for $560 shipped from crutchfield!!!!!

Great deal!!! Mirages always have a nice, friendly sound.

Mark, there are some advantages to a tower format. I do believe the M6 would perform better if it had a little more cabinet space and were tuned appropriately. Jack really crammed the drivers from a much bigger cabinet into the smallest possible design, but that was the form factor they needed. The VR3 was just too darned big, but you heard the advantages in the second and third octaves.

As well as disadvantages too.

FWIW, I actually like the VT-3/VC-3/VR-3 better than the T6/M6, except for maybe the fact that the VR-3s didn't have a boundary compensation switch, and the fact that the Evo subs are better. But, as you well know, the VR-3 was not a tower either (although it was designed to be ran large/full range). Besides, comparing those to a M6 is a far cry from a 2.5i. ;)

The new higher MSRPs must be dollar related, not because NHT thinks they have a great speaker line.

At least that is what I am hoping.

Or maybe Vinci Labs needs to pay off some debt?

Another more negative thought might be that the line hasn't sold as well as previous iterations and they need to make up volume.

I wonder how NHT's foray into ever higher price points has affected unit sales?

C3 is now more than 50% higher than SB3!

Mark, there are some advantages to a tower format. I do believe the M6 would perform better if it had a little more cabinet space and were tuned appropriately. Jack really crammed the drivers from a much bigger cabinet into the smallest possible design, but that was the form factor they needed. The VR3 was just too darned big, but you heard the advantages in the second and third octaves.

I agree with this too. If you look at an AC2 it is bigger and I think weighs more than the m6. I guess Jack wanted them for cabnet installs so he made them smaller to fit. I have listen to the RBH 661 which is about equal to the M6. The standard 661 cost $200 to $300 dollars more depending on finsh, but they are bigger and have a nice sound. The line also has a good choice of speakers for different set ups. I really belive some tweaks to the m5/6 speakers with a small increase in price could really put it at a great speaker price ratio. I think the price you get now is good and was great when they first came out, but I think other speaker companys are moving in and making it harder to compete. Don't get me wrong the m5/6 speakers give you a great sound, but after you upgrade everthing else you look back at your m5/6 and say they really sound good but I want more, then you relize you will have to spend any where from 2 to 5 times what you paid for your NHT speakers to get the improvment you are looking for. Now on the use market I don't know of a better deal than some of the m5/6 prices I have seen.
Allen

Cost aside, Leepalao is right, towers can have an advantage. Cost for cost, Mark is right because it costs a lot less to build a bookshelf speaker. But it's hardly worth arguing over.

Cost aside, Leepalao is right, towers can have an advantage. Cost for cost, Mark is right because it costs a lot less to build a bookshelf speaker. But it's hardly worth arguing over.

Since, according to leepalao's criteria anyway, the T6s qualify as towers, do you consider them to be flat out better (regardless of costing more) than M6s on P6s with dual W1s instead of B6s? :p

Of course, one advantage about towers, for dealers anyway, is that they do mean more profit in general though, don't they? ;)

Since, according to leepalao's criteria anyway, the T6s qualify as towers, do you consider them to be flat out better (regardless of costing more) than M6s on P6s with dual W1s instead of B6s? :p

T6s aren't really "towers", they're a sub/sat system masquerading as towers.

Of course, one advantage about towers, for dealers anyway, is that they do mean more profit in general though, don't they? ;)

Not really.

Since, according to leepalao's criteria anyway, the T6s qualify as towers, do you consider them to be flat out better (regardless of costing more) than M6s on P6s with dual W1s instead of B6s?


T6s aren't really "towers", they're a sub/sat system masquerading as towers.

And there lies the rub. M6's with dual W1's sound better than T6's. Case closed

Very few towers speakers can contemplate the performance of a stand alone subwoofer, let alone dual subs that can be placed optimally in the room. In the narrow comparison of B6 cabinets to W1's is much closer, but the independent placement still wins out along with the apposing driver configuration of the W1.

The trick is a properly integrated "sat"/sub. Cancellation and doubling are the usual suspects. Same can be said for adding a sub to a tower. A test disc and measurements can be your friend or better yet a Velodyne SMS-1.

As far as system integration goes I am still looking for a cost effective setup that will trump the M6/ L5 combo too. Who has a better surround speaker that mounts to a wall and is as flexible as the L5? And of course has mains and center that will play as well as the M6? For the money?? I may sound like a NHT fanboy but some of you on the forum know I'm not bashful about trying all sorts of equipment. I have not found a more synergistic setup.

James Elvick

Quote!
"Basically, it was pointing how he is even less experienced and/or knowledgeable than you. If he knew how to set up properly, even half an inkling, the 2.5is couldn't possibly hold a candle to the M6/Velo combo on 2 channel, but, he'll never even know what he is
missing out on so long as he keeps listening to your idea that he can't use the sub with the M6s (which were actually designed to be used with a sub or subs at that) for 2 channel when comparing them to the 2.5i instead of taking the advise of virtually every other poster besides yourself here who has actually commented on it, all of whom obviously have much more first hand knowledge and experience about it than you do I might add. Oh well, it's his loss."

first off, i truly appreciate everyone's opinion on my nht 2.5i and m6 issue.

mark. my loss? how can you say something so offensive about my speaker taste. just because you feel the nht m6 sounds better does not justify that i will also. both speakers sound great on my rotel system. i am giving the speakers great clean power, and to be honest i still preferred the nht 2.5i. so you are basically saying my opinion on how i hear the speaker is wrong. i do aplogize that i do not agree with your opinion on switching the speakers. also, i am sorry for the argument on this particular issue. i merely was just asking everyones opinion on this site, not wanted to make a big debacle amongst one another. but thanks for your opinion.

how about this.
mark,how can properly set up my system so that i can truly hear the m6?

Mark thinks the M6 sounds better than the Classic Fours, but to me, the Fours are in another league in terms of resolution, freedom from cone resonance and imaging/soundstaging (sometimes too good for HT, it seems). As they should be because of the more advanced driver/cabinet design. So....that just means that you have to listen for yourself and chose what appeals to you because people have different tastes.

The M6 does sound a little boring compared to the brighter, more aggressive 2.5i. So I think you will prefer the Classic Three/Four sound which has a little more of that sound. The Classics are more like a scalpel compared to the 2.5i's "unsharpened old blade" sound and compared to the M6's "velvet hammer" kind of sound.

Anyway, any chance we can stop arguing over slight variations in subjectivity any time soon? You'd think this was an ID thread or something......

T6s aren't really "towers", they're a sub/sat system masquerading as towers.

Yes, I'm well aware of that simple fact. If you had been a bit more perceptive, you would have realized that has been exactly my point all along (and Allen's too). It is leepalao that has been claiming the T6 was in fact a "tower" (because it "existed"), which is why in my question to you (the one that James answered so eloquently that it couldn't have possibly been put any better, which, you still haven't answered yet BTW), I specifically said "Since, according to leepalao's criteria anyway, the T6s qualify as towers".

Not really.

So, you don't make more $$$ from the sale of a pair of Fours over Threes? Hmm, interesting, cause I couldn't see any other possible motivation for someone who previously argued so vehemently that cabinet size simply does not matter for subwoofers to all of the sudden do a 180 degree turnaround and now claim that it does for the upper frequency range drivers. ;)

So, if you were to design a tower yourself, I take it would it be shaped like a pyramid turned upside down? :D

how about this.
mark,how can properly set up my system so that i can truly hear the m6?


Rather than go over again what we already have several times before in this thread (and as James briefly mentioned in his last post), simply click here and download this to start with, then go over it real good. It is your friend, know it, learn it, live by it: :)

http://nhthifi.com/2006/manuals/current/EvolutionUserGuide.pdf

Then get a copy of your Velo owner's manual if you don't already have one. If not, you can find it for yourself at:

http://www.velodyne.com/main.aspx

Finally, go to SVS' site and look over some of Ed Mullen's excellent set up instructions:

http://www.svsound.com/questions-faqs.cfm#wheretoput

and

http://www.svsound.com/questions-faqs.cfm#meter

Or, simply do what James said and get a Velo SMS-1. :D

thanks Alimentall for the analogy on the m6 and 2.5i, oh and the classic series. a great way to describe the sound and presence of the speakers

Mark thinks the M6 sounds better than the Classic Fours, but to me, the Fours are in another league in terms of resolution, freedom from cone resonance and imaging/soundstaging (sometimes too good for HT, it seems). As they should be because of the more advanced driver/cabinet design.

So I think you will prefer the Classic Three/Four sound which has a little more of that sound. The Classics are more like a scalpel compared to the 2.5i's "unsharpened old blade" sound and compared to the M6's "velvet hammer" kind of sound.

Rather than go over the same old same old yet again on this subject, just keep in mind that I have no agenda here. After all, I'm not trying to convince anybody who may have already bought M5s or M6s from me to trade them in for Classics. ;)

I may sound like a NHT fanboy but some of you on the forum know I'm not bashful about trying all sorts of equipment. I have not found a more synergistic setup.

James Elvick

That's not being a "fanboy", that's merely being cognizant. :D

Rather than go over the same old same old yet again on this subject, just keep in mind that I have no agenda here.

Nor do I, other than helping someone get into the right speaker combo, rather than arguing.

I know we're talking about the Classic speakers and all, but has anyone heard about the NHT execs jumping ship and the remaining Vinci Labs guys liquidating the speaker line? I have heard a story like this from a very trusted source, I would REALLY like some confirmation if someone can get it to me. Thanks...

Whoa!

If it is true then I am a freakin' genius!

The new higher MSRPs must be dollar related, not because NHT thinks they have a great speaker line.

At least that is what I am hoping.

Or maybe Vinci Labs needs to pay off some debt?

Another more negative thought might be that the line hasn't sold as well as previous iterations and they need to make up volume.

I wonder how NHT's foray into ever higher price points has affected unit sales?

C3 is now more than 50% higher than SB3!

Well, I wasn't going to say anything, but since the cat is now out of the bag anyway, yes, I have heard some rumblings that something is going on.

But, if it is true, keep in mind, NHT has been in this position a few times before (Jensen Intl., Recoton, Fosgate, etc.), so lets all hope for the best one more time.

Man, I thought this crap was finally over when Vinci Labs bought them. :(:mad:

If I had Mark Cuban's money, or even ARod's for that matter, hell, I'd buy them myself. :eek:

Well, I wasn't going to say anything, but since the cat is now out of the bag anyway, yes, I have heard some rumblings that something is going on.

But, if it is true, keep in mind, NHT has been in this position a few times before (Jensen Intl., Recoton, Fosgate, etc.), so lets all hope for the best one more time.

Man, I thought this crap was finally over when Vinci Labs bought them. :(:mad:

If I had Mark Cuban's money, or even ARod's for that matter, hell, I'd buy them myself. :eek:

That would be a good thing. But John would be knocking your door down for all kinds of new speakers. I could see it now a revel warm sound with an NHT detail sound. O yea NHT goes ID that is why you would have to hire John and I would become your beta tester. So with this thought go for Mark I am behind you all the way.
Allen
Mark's personal Beta Tester :D

I really don't mind the price increases as NHT speakers were undervalued as is. Part of the upswing in mgt & marketing vinci added. Have to say I like it, at least people who pay attention have heard of them by now. Looking forward to Xd2 or Evo2, whatever they call them. :)

I really don't mind the price increases as NHT speakers were undervalued as is. Part of the upswing in mgt & marketing vinci added. Have to say I like it, at least people who pay attention have heard of them by now. Looking forward to Xd2 or Evo2, whatever they call them. :)

Wow, the timing of this post couldn't have possibly come at a stranger time than it did in light of what was just brought up right before it! :eek:

That is, unless perhaps you know some first hand good news that we don't?

mark russ,

You are correct. They have been in this position many times before. it amazes me
that many audio companies continue to operate at all, or many that have
great reputations go under(Dunlavey for one).

I just heard B&W 802Ds again in a normal, decent room and I can't understand how NHT Classic Fours haven't taken over the world. I thought NHT Fours were as good as 802Ds. Now I know they're substantially better. I wouldn't be surprised if the 802Ds actually sell more numerically than the Fours.

I understand that NHT is being "repackaged" for resale, but can't get any concrete information. Whoever buys it could make a lot of money if they know *anything* about marketing, customer service, etc.

I understand that NHT is being "repackaged" for resale, but can't get any concrete information. Whoever buys it could make a lot of money if they know *anything* about marketing, customer service, etc.

If they're being sold off, I wonder if that means the end of the controller and power5/2?

Alimentall,
I guess you heard it correctly too. When I said I preferred the 4s over the 802Ds, it was for real. That is why the 802Ds were sold and the 4s stayed behind. I like the smooth bass from the 802Ds and its fuller sound better, but the 4s just have that clarity/accuracy and separation of instruments that the 802Ds or the 3s can't match. An example is, voice tend to stand out more on the 4s. Also, on the 802Ds when an instrument fade, the 4s still let me hear it for another second (a little louder too). On top of that, the 4s are just as refined (maybe a little less, but very close) as the 802Ds, and definitely more so than the 3s. And when I set the 4s with the U2 subs, it was even better and blend very nicely with more impact. Not sure where I mentioned before, but I'll mention it again.... The Fours are the speakers to keep! These are very, very hard to beat.... Funny thing is, almost EVERYONE (family/cousins/friends) who heard my system preferred the 802Ds.... But that's an exception, because they wouldn't spend more than $500 on a set of speakers....

Wow, the timing of this post couldn't have possibly come at a stranger time than it did in light of what was just brought up right before it! :eek: Is there any question vinci has had a positive effect on the company? Better marketing, introduction of some high quality products, better customer service. In fact, nht's traditionally low price, high quality strategy may be what's hurting profits...change that to moderate prices (maybe even high for *some* items), more marketing, & keep the high quality; does wonders for the bottom line & company stability. Maybe the staff refuses to go down that road, but you have to understand music isn't the only priority, even though it's the first & most important one.

Well the Classic line was in the pipeline before Vinci ever came on board.
I do think the price increase is out of line with NHT's history.
Unless the dollar is killing everything.

perhaps NHT should build their stuff here then reap the rewards in overseas sales.

Is there any question vinci has had a positive effect on the company? Better marketing, introduction of some high quality products, better customer service. In fact, nht's traditionally low price, high quality strategy may be what's hurting profits...change that to moderate prices (maybe even high for *some* items), more marketing, & keep the high quality; does wonders for the bottom line & company stability. Maybe the staff refuses to go down that road, but you have to understand music isn't the only priority, even though it's the first & most important one.

So all of that explains why we are now talking about NHT being in serious turmoil once again? Okaaayyy .... :p

Read it a few times & maybe you'll understand. Other than that, unless you work for them & have detailed information, we have to go with the obvious.

If they're being sold off, I wonder if that means the end of the controller and power5/2?

If Vinci Labs is now out of the picture now, I would think it doesn't look too good.

I'm not expecting any more Controller software updates, or HDMI 1.3 any time soon now, if ever. :(:mad:

Hopefully, I'll ultimately be proven wrong here.

If Vinci Labs is now out of the picture now, I would think it doesn't look too good.

I'm not expecting any more Controller software updates, or HDMI 1.3 any time soon now, if ever. :(:mad:

Hopefully, I'll ultimately be proven wrong here.

Yeah, sucks to be the people who bought the Controller expecting HDMI 1.3.

Shame, NHT/Vinci seemed like such a great fit on the engineering side.

Read it a few times & maybe you'll understand. Other than that, unless you work for them & have detailed information, we have to go with the obvious.

In case you haven't noticed it yet for some reason, the word is Vinci Labs is now out of the picture entirely. I don't see how anyone in their right mind can still claim how great it is for NHT now. :confused:

But I will defer to your all knowing, infinite wisdom in this case. :p;)

Yeah, sucks to be the people who bought the Controller expecting HDMI 1.3.

Shame, NHT/Vinci seemed like such a great fit on the engineering side.

Yep, just the sheer logistics of it promised to be a fantastic synergy between them. But who knows? - NHT might actually wind up in an even better situation. Maybe the NHT electronics can still go on anyway. This doesn't necessarily mean that it is definitely the end of them. Besides, the XdA was totally separate with Power Physics anyway. :)

Even if there never is anything else for the Controller though, I still absolutely do not regret getting mine. HDMi 1.3 on it, while nice, simply isn't an absolute requirement.

Okay, if I buy the XDs on eBay, how much do others think I could get for my almost-brand-new U2 system with the 20 Hz mod? There is not a scratch on them and I have all the original packaging - they have about 50-70 hours on them over 3 months. I also have an equally new pair of C3s, but might keep them for HT since I also have the C3C...

Peter

So was that you what won them, or someone else? Because I didn't. But at $1925, somebody still got a deal.

Alimentall,
I guess you heard it correctly too. When I said I preferred the 4s over the 802Ds, it was for real. That is why the 802Ds were sold and the 4s stayed behind. I like the smooth bass from the 802Ds and its fuller sound better, but the 4s just have that clarity/accuracy and separation of instruments that the 802Ds or the 3s can't match. An example is, voice tend to stand out more on the 4s. Also, on the 802Ds when an instrument fade, the 4s still let me hear it for another second (a little louder too). On top of that, the 4s are just as refined (maybe a little less, but very close) as the 802Ds, and definitely more so than the 3s. And when I set the 4s with the U2 subs, it was even better and blend very nicely with more impact. Not sure where I mentioned before, but I'll mention it again.... The Fours are the speakers to keep! These are very, very hard to beat.... Funny thing is, almost EVERYONE (family/cousins/friends) who heard my system preferred the 802Ds.... But that's an exception, because they wouldn't spend more than $500 on a set of speakers....

For me, it was the strange imaging of the B&Ws. They just were erratic and everything sounded *completely* out of phase (I checked, it was okay). If I moved 1" in any direction, the location of all the instruments changed, even flipping around. Nothing we did changed that, but some things minimized it. Very finicky! Unless there's something wrong with his, but I've heard this phenomenon before, just not on the D series, so I gave them the benefit of the doubt. I've never heard an NHT do that before and assume that it's the FST driver combined with the 1st order crossovers and lack of time coherence.

So was that you what won them, or someone else? Because I didn't. But at $1925, somebody still got a deal.
Unfortunately not me. My wife put a limit below that final price, but I agree it was a great deal for somebody!

Peter

In case you haven't noticed it yet for some reason, the word is Vinci Labs is now out of the picture entirely. I don't see how anyone in their right mind can still claim how great it is for NHT now. :confused:

But I will defer to your all knowing, infinite wisdom in this case. :p;) Apparently some people are more concerned with being right than listening & considering other viewpoints, but hey whatever works for you; at least you seem happy. :)

Unfortunately not me. My wife put a limit below that final price, but I agree it was a great deal for somebody!

Peter

I was hoping you'd get 'em. I had it bookmarked under watched items, and the auction is now not showing up anymore (as it still should for a while even though it has now closed). Looks like maybe the owner has pulled it after it brought no more than it did, so maybe you didn't miss out on anything after all.

Apparently some people are more concerned with being right than listening & considering other viewpoints, but hey whatever works for you; at least you seem happy. :)

I already said I was deferring to your all knowing infinite wisdom on this one about how great and peachy things are right now with NHT & Vinci Labs to the point that they couldn't possibly be any better or rosier than they are. What else do you want? Read it a few times & maybe you'll understand. :D

Hi,

consider I am a newbie into this. Please be patient.

I recently got myself a Denon 2808CI (I got into the 6ave deal). and I am shopping for speakers now. I am narrowing down to NHT.

Assume $$$ is not a factor, which one should I go with? I already have a Inifity 10" sub. it seems the Four is kind over kill for me. and I also concern the 2808 don't have enough power to push the Fours.

However I really like the Look of tower speakers. I know I know, it is all about the sound. My friend told me, with 2808, the THREES should have better effect than the FOURS because the 2808 just don't have the juice to drive the FOURS. Also he say, the Threes is exactly same as Fours + 10" woofer which I already have one. So it is a waste for me anyway.

Is that correct? ooooh, it will be 80/20 for HT/Music.

Thanks.

Hi,

consider I am a newbie into this. Please be patient.

I recently got myself a Denon 2808CI (I got into the 6ave deal). and I am shopping for speakers now. I am narrowing down to NHT.

Assume $$$ is not a factor, which one should I go with? I already have a Inifity 10" sub. it seems the Four is kind over kill for me. and I also concern the 2808 don't have enough power to push the Fours.

However I really like the Look of tower speakers. I know I know, it is all about the sound. My friend told me, with 2808, the THREES should have better effect than the FOURS because the 2808 just don't have the juice to drive the FOURS. Also he say, the Threes is exactly same as Fours + 10" woofer which I already have one. So it is a waste for me anyway.

Is that correct? ooooh, it will be 80/20 for HT/Music.

Thanks.

I agree with your friend, and I'd recommend the Threes in this case, high passed off to the Infinity sub.

However, if $$$ is not an object, if your AVR has pre-outs and main-ins for the main L/R front channels (or at least pre-outs for them), you could get an X2 crossover and a pair of A1 power amps to bi-amp the Fours with and still use your Denon. :)

I agree with your friend, and I'd recommend the Threes in this case, high passed off to the Infinity sub.

However, if $$$ is not an object, if your AVR has pre-outs and main-ins for the main L/R front channels (or at least pre-outs for them), you could get an X2 crossover and a pair of A1 power amps to bi-amp the Fours with and still use your Denon. :)

Thanks Mark,

The reason I say $$$$ is not an object because the Classic Four is on sale now, (just seach, NHT's authorize online dealer is runing 50% off). which puts the difference of the Fours and Threes less then $500.

Now I have more questions.

1. do I have to have the X2 crossover? or a pair of A1 is good enough? I Think my Denon 2808 has pre-out.
2. ultimately, it is all about sound and I am not a really a Bass hungry guy. I feel my Infinity sub is good enough for me. So other than more Bass, is there anything else the Fours is better than Threes? (of course I still prefer the look of the Fours).

Hi,

consider I am a newbie into this. Please be patient.

I recently got myself a Denon 2808CI (I got into the 6ave deal). and I am shopping for speakers now. I am narrowing down to NHT.

Assume $$$ is not a factor, which one should I go with? I already have a Inifity 10" sub. it seems the Four is kind over kill for me. and I also concern the 2808 don't have enough power to push the Fours.


Money no object, go for the Fours, then add an amp if needed, though the new Denons are a bit beefier than earlier units.

Thanks Mark,

The reason I say $$$$ is not an object because the Classic Four is on sale now, (just seach, NHT's authorize online dealer is runing 50% off). which puts the difference of the Fours and Threes less then $500.

Now I have more questions.

1. do I have to have the X2 crossover? or a pair of A1 is good enough? I Think my Denon 2808 has pre-out.
2. ultimately, it is all about sound and I am not a really a Bass hungry guy. I feel my Infinity sub is good enough for me. So other than more Bass, is there anything else the Fours is better than Threes? (of course I still prefer the look of the Fours).


Well you really do need the X2 when used with A1s, but not just on A1s, but with any power amp or amps for the Four's built in passive subs, it will allow you to forget about trying to match their gain to your Denon AVR (which may be all but impossible to find anyway). Plus, it gives you plenty of useful options, such as both separate master gain and LFE gain to dial in different settings for both 2 channel music and movie soundtracks (if you want to crank it up a little on movies), high and low pass crossovers (optional when used with the Fours), a very comprehensive phase control adjustment, and a boundary Eq that could come in handy in various different placement situations.

However, the bad news is that the retail prices on an X2 and a pair of A1s is now over $1300, and even though you can get the Fours for only $500 more than the Threes, that's still $1800 when added together, which will can buy you a hell of a lot more subwoofer(s) than the ones the Fours have (even with an X2/A1s), especially the ID brands. :eek:

However, if you can get the Fours now for only $500 more than the Threes, and when you consider it would be even less than that if you have to factor in the price of a set of stands, it's a no brainer IMO to go ahead and get the Fours now. You could use them as is for now and always pick up an X2 and A1s later, especially since it would give you time to lay back and wait for a good deal on the used market. ;)

Well, I wouldn't worry too much, NHT is closing out Evolution at stupid prices, so I'd say the U1/U2 or anything else Evo just jumped into "best bargain on the planet" category.

It looks like NHT is closing out the Classic 4s in Special Dark: $999 at Audio Advisor for a pair.

Well, I wouldn't worry too much, NHT is closing out Evolution at stupid prices, so I'd say the U1/U2 or anything else Evo just jumped into "best bargain on the planet" category.

Does this include the A1s and X1s separately too?

What are the individual closeout prices of the whole Evo line if you can reveal them?

$999? Hmmmm.

$999? Hmmmm.

Plus extremely reasonable shipping charges.

Oh go ahead, you know you're gonna anyway! ;)

I'm seriously thinking about it myself (that's how I know there are only like $40 shipping charges for the pair to an area close to yours). :D