Has anyone ran their system off of the A1 Amps and used them for mains and surrounds? Just curious their specs seem pretty robust.Someone else will probably correct me, but I believe they're repackaged Outlaw Audio monoblocks. I think I saw that on this thread somewhere.

Actually, it's the opposite. The A1s came first. The Outlaw is the repackage.

OK sort of off topic, but I have been reading on head-fi all week and can't decide so I thought I'd through the question out here.

Since we all like the "NHT sound" here (Better, or else why would you be in a 200 page thread??)

I am looking for some better iem's/canal phones. Looking to stay in under or around $200....not customs. But I want a good sound stage, good full range, not too anylitical, good bass, not too bright, and good seperation of instruments....Basically what I have with my Classic 4's;)

For the price I like the cx300's I have, but that is like comparing Bic to NHT:eek:
Not as easy to audition iem's....

What are you guys using?

Future Sonic's Atrio. Great soundstage, deep tight bass (not bloat), not bright, beautiful vocal - it does remind me NHT speakers (older ones). Atrio's seperation of instruments is not the best, but you know some "good?" seperation canal phones can be too bright. I hardly touch my Shure E4C and E5C any more, they are a bit "clean" when compare to Atrio.

So has anyone ran full amplification from the A1's?

John, do I recall you saying before that country music is good demo music? Can you expound on that?

Well, it's good for hearing a voice that is pushed rather far in front of the rest of the music and its usually not heavily laced with echo reverb and such. Very clean generally. I've heard lots of highly regarded speakers that fall apart on this little test, adding obvious cone resonances and blurring to the voice. Or a distinct lack of control to the sound. NHTs do very well on this, with lots of very precise control over the voice.

Another test is just taking any CD that has very hard to distinguish vocals. You will often find that the "more detailed" speakers actually can't pick apart the voice as the "detail" is faked.

With an X2 and 2 A1's for the front Classic 4's, is it worth to use just the A1's to power the rear Classic Fours without an X2 to feed them more power? My receiver will likely have MAX 130w per channel...

I bought 4 A1's at a relatively good price and I'm wondering what to do with the extra 2?

the evolution manual says to wire the u1 out of phase but john you are saying if there are 2 to have them in phase?

the evolution manual says to wire the u1 out of phase but john you are saying if there are 2 to have them in phase?

It does? Huh. Maybe I need to reread that. But it doesn't make sense. There's a phase switch on the front panel. In any case, they should be in phase with each other.

I found a new, almost magical combination this weekend that I had previously never tried - VR-3s with dual W1s. :D

IMO, the VR3s in some ways manage to combine the best of both the M5s and M6s. To me, just as the M5s are, they are a little "warmer" sounding than M6s, and are free of the little midrange blip the M6s have, but yet, like the M6s, they will play even louder than M5s.

They don't image as well as M5s/M6s, but toe-in will help with that somewhat, and yet they still have wider soundstaging than M5s/M6s. And the Evo subs are clearly a step up from the VT-3's subs.

I like this combo a lot, better overall than any other one I've tried yet, short of Xds of course. ;)

BTW, what stands go good with SD Classic bookshelf speakers?

I kind of wish that NHT would have had a true replacement for the ST-4s at about the same price that would have been basically a tower version of the Two with 8" or maybe even 10" side-firing subs. :(

Studio Tech Ultra stands work pretty well in rosewood. Top plates are a bit big though.

I found a new, almost magical combination this weekend that I had previously never tried - VR-3s with dual W1s. :D

IMO, the VR3s in some ways manage to combine the best of both the M5s and M6s. To me, just as the M5s are, they are a little "warmer" sounding than M6s, and are free of the little midrange blip the M6s have, but yet, like the M6s, they will play even louder than M5s.

They don't image as well as M5s/M6s, but toe-in will help with that somewhat, and yet they still have wider soundstaging than M5s/M6s. And the Evo subs are clearly a step up from the VT-3's subs.

I like this combo a lot, better overall than any other one I've tried yet, short of Xds of course. ;)



They mate (U-2s) with the old 2.1's also. I use a 50 Hz crossover, and that works out very well. Sealed main speakers mate with sealed subwoofers in a nice way.

With the A1 and X1 on closeout, has anybody located a source for the E1 rack ears for a reasonable price? ******* wants $24/pair as a special order. I'd like two pair and $50 is a little high for four bent pieces of metal.

Thanks.

Quick question for a friend:
She purchased (on my recommendation) C3s and a C3C for front, and AZs for surround. Due to setup of her room, there is just no place to put the AZs, even mounted to the wall, and she wants in-wall speakers. Will the NHT iw's work? Which would be the best match for Classic Threes? There is little price difference between the iw3 and iw4 currently.

Peter

iW4s. Same mid/tweeter.

Quick question for a friend:
She purchased (on my recommendation) C3s and a C3C for front, and AZs for surround. Due to setup of her room, there is just no place to put the AZs, even mounted to the wall, and she wants in-wall speakers. Will the NHT iw's work? Which would be the best match for Classic Threes? There is little price difference between the iw3 and iw4 currently.

Peter

If you go to the Classic Three home theater page on the NHT website, they match up the IW4s (and IC4s) as an option with the Threes. The IW4s share the midrange/tweeter pod with the Threes, so if you go in-wall I'm sure that's the way to go.

http://nhthifi.com/2006/ht-s-classicthree.html

The IW4 is 10"x14"xflush-mount. The AZ is 10"x6"x7"deep, so if there's wall space for the IW4s, then the AZs should fit with a mount, unless there's not clearance from the wall which is probably the case.

BTW, and possibly off-topic a bit, if the issue is aesthetics, IMO the AZs wall-mounted should look pretty nice (I'll be wall-mounting AZs soon to go with a pair of 3s and a 3C for a 5:1 system). My view is, while it's not a dedicated HT space, I'm not trying to hide the fact that it's being used as a home theater. For example, there's the matter of the 46" LCD flat screen on the wall! And a subwoofer. So, I think a pair of AZ surrounds on the wall in black to match the pair of Threes up front will look good in our room (which has black as an accent color and a more modern decor). Each situation is different though.

I can't comment on the relative sound qualities between the IW4s and the AZs, but I'm sure others here will be able to do so. I do know that Jack Hadley of NHT recommended the AZs over the Twos as surrounds for the Threes, but perhaps the midrange/tweeter assembly match makes the IW4 the better choice anyway.

Edit: Alimentall answered your question concisely while I took a call! What he said. ;)

Anyone blowing out the A1's? Cheapest I've seen is $249.

Quick question for a friend:
She purchased (on my recommendation) C3s and a C3C for front, and AZs for surround. Due to setup of her room, there is just no place to put the AZs, even mounted to the wall, and she wants in-wall speakers. Will the NHT iw's work? Which would be the best match for Classic Threes? There is little price difference between the iw3 and iw4 currently.

Peter

What about having a window box built into the wall and setting the AZ in it?

Thanks everyone for your responses. I'm sure we'll find a home for the AZs. She's in a (huge) condo, and her media room is set up strangely. AZs on the wall would project over the couch, which is corner backed into the wall (that is, it's across a corner with both rear edges touching). I think iw4s just behind the corners of the couch and above it would work well. I think ic4s would be better, but wiring into the ceiling of a finished room can get messy.

Peter

Anyone blowing out the A1's? Cheapest I've seen is $249.


I'm afraid you simply aren't going to get them for much cheaper than that, especially shipped.

I received my Classics, purchased new from an authorized seller, and it appears from the tape job on the box that the Threes had been opened previously. Otherwise the packaging was fine and the speakers seem pristine. Any reason for concern or a return, other than principal? My thought is, if when I test them they work fine, and they appear pristine, no harm no foul. Opinions?

That got me thinking about all the internet direct speaker makers who offer 30 day in-home trials. What happens to the returned speakers (and I'm guessing there are a lot)? Axiom, for example, has a "factory outlet" with reduced speaker prices, so I assume some/most of those are returns. But do other companies just repackage and resell their returned speakers?

I received my Classics, purchased new from an authorized seller, and it appears from the tape job on the box that the Threes had been opened previously. Otherwise the packaging was fine and the speakers seem pristine. Any reason for concern or a return, other than principal? My thought is, if when I test them they work fine, and they appear pristine, no harm no foul. Opinions?

That got me thinking about all the internet direct speaker makers who offer 30 day in-home trials. What happens to the returned speakers (and I'm guessing there are a lot)? Axiom, for example, has a "factory outlet" with reduced speaker prices, so I assume some/most of those are returns. But do other companies just repackage and resell their returned speakers?Repackage and resell as new is illegal.

Agree completely, no legitimate retailer or etailer would sell an opened unit as new...

You should request a call tag for the entire package along with a full refund.

Chili,

I have no idea who you purchased your speakers from, so I can't say why they were opened. Here are some likely legitimate reasons:

1) The speakers were QCed at NHT. We cut open the original tape, tested the speakers and retaped the boxes. Usually the new layer of tape will have the NHT logo on it, but not always. Sometimes we run out of tape guns with the correct tape on it.

2) Some dealers open all the product in a shipment when they receive it to check for hidden damage. The box will then be retaped with generic tape.

With respect to reselling goods that have been opened or repackaged as new. A product can be repackaged as many times as you want and sold as new. It can not be sold as new, once it has been sold to an end consumer. Once it has been sold to an end consumer, it is now no longer new. Until that point, it is still new.

NHT sells returned or cosmetically damaged product as E-stock. Most other companies sell it as B-stock.

Since Aaron just mentioned "legitimate dealer" and I also just sent him a PM, I thought I'd reiterate to the board how positive my experience was dealing with HiDefLifestyle. I bought my U2s (second set) from them and they were more than fair (not only was the price great, of course, but they charged actual UPS shipping which was only about $30 for those 5 boxes) and they arrived in only 2 days (YMMV). Despite the NHT single-box packaging, they arrived in perfect condition. :):)

Thanks, Aaron.

Peter

I received my Classics, purchased new from an authorized seller, and it appears from the tape job on the box that the Threes had been opened previously. Otherwise the packaging was fine and the speakers seem pristine. Any reason for concern or a return, other than principal? My thought is, if when I test them they work fine, and they appear pristine, no harm no foul. Opinions?

Did they have that new piano smell when you opened them? Don't know if that's from the lacquer or the wood, but I think I got high on that when I first opened the Threes. Getting opened speakers represented as new would annoy me to no end.

Jack-

Have you had accounts of inadequate packaging of your product? I know myself, I recieved a 2-U1 systems which one of the W1's was damaged however it looked like the damage was pre-ship damage. Unfortunately since the W1's are no longer in stock at NHT, I'm a bit stuck at what to do regarding a cabinet that is dinged up.

Just going through these posts I've noticed other's have commented on inadequate packaging. I've been a long time NHT user and the sub was packaged the worst of any product I've ever received from NHT.

Sean Lowrey

Chili,

I have no idea who you purchased your speakers from, so I can't say why they were opened. Here are some likely legitimate reasons:

1) The speakers were QCed at NHT. We cut open the original tape, tested the speakers and retaped the boxes. Usually the new layer of tape will have the NHT logo on it, but not always. Sometimes we run out of tape guns with the correct tape on it.

2) Some dealers open all the product in a shipment when they receive it to check for hidden damage. The box will then be retaped with generic tape.

With respect to reselling goods that have been opened or repackaged as new. A product can be repackaged as many times as you want and sold as new. It can not be sold as new, once it has been sold to an end consumer. Once it has been sold to an end consumer, it is now no longer new. Until that point, it is still new.

NHT sells returned or cosmetically damaged product as E-stock. Most other companies sell it as B-stock.

The ONLY sense I got that they were repackaged was that there was non-NHT tape over the original NHT tape, and the original NHT tape had been cut previously. Everything else about the speakers appeared new (I don't remember the piano smell tvsurfer, but now that you mention it the smell is so obvious that I think I would have noticed its absence if it wasn't there).

Jack, thanks for that info. That all makes perfect sense. It's very likely it was just one of your two scenarios. I won't mention the retailer (an authorized online retailer, not HiDefLifeStyle though - I'll be that specific) because I get the sense it was an innocent thing and I don't want someone getting a bad name over something perfectly legitimate. I purchased a full 5:1 system and everything else was perfect - even the Threes are pristine. As I said originally, so long as the speakers work when I test them I won't worry about it. If they don't work I'll return them obviously, but I'd do that in any case.

There have been a few instances when I didn't have a specific color on display and opened the package just enough to show the color to someone. Of course, I mention this to a purchaser, that it had been opened for that purpose. It doesn't seem to me to be anything terribly out of order here.

Mr Lowrey,

The standard packaging drop tests that almost all companies use are ones from ASTM and ISO. In both of these standards, there is an inverse relationship between the weight of the package being dropped and the height it is dropped from. The theory is that heavier packages do not need to be dropped from as high because they will not be carried as high up. This is true to an extent.

In reality, once you get over the magic weight, the package suddenly has a much higher chance of being dropped from a high height. The reason is simple. The shipper isn't going to lift the package, once they realize is weights 70lbs, they simply push it off the dock, out of the truck, off the shelf, etc. From this standpoint, these standards are useless.

Our normal drop test procedure (for heavy products) is to drop the package from a height of 30" onto all six corners and three faces. We also do test shipping of the product (by ground only) across the US.

The W1 does have a higher shipping damage rate than the W2 because it is heavier. This is simple physics. The W1 doesn't have an unusually high shipping damage rate. We use high density polyethylene end caps for the W1 and W2 cabinets. This provides much greater and repeated damage protection than polystyrene. I believe that the crush distance on the corner of the W1 packaging is 1.5"-2", but I'm not sure. This was designed about 5 years ago.

What specifically do you think was so bad about the W1 packaging? You stated that is was much worse than other NHT products you have purchased.

It is important to realize that when dealing with heavy products and high density polyethylene endcaps, it is possible for the product to become damaged and there to be no signs of damage on the outer carton. If you look very closely at the endcap surface just above the damage, you should be able to see an area where the polyethylene has actually been melted from the pressure of the impact. You need to check both sides of the endcap.

In the case of shipping heavy products, double boxing doesn't really help protect in drops. The main thing that helps is to increase the crush distance available from the outside of the packaging to the surface of the product, at the corners.

Wow Jack great response. I appreciate you response and thus I will chime in with my thoughts.

I will only speak from my experience but I would expect that a 70lb subwoofer would be double boxed and be of thicker cardboard than what mine came in. The foam end caps are nice however the box should have corner protectors and be banded. And the foam end caps should be full endcaps not just rim protectors. My box didn't have any heavy duty staples holding it shut, only tape across the horizontal. Not even in a "H" pattern. Heck my 65lb amplifier is double boxed and was banded with corner protectors etc.

I agree that for most people the packaging is fine. Especially for those who buy local and the subwoofers come to the dealer on a pallet and then go out the door to the customer unpacked or for a local installation.

Unfortunately those of us who do not have local NHT dealers have to buy items over the internet through your online authorized dealers. This means that the item is shipped to the dealer and then the dealer ships it to the customer. This means it's getting double crushed, double smashed and double the chance of tears, rips etc. I'm sure that there are shipping standards that UPS has for their tolerance of boxes and how many times they can be reused, in essence how many times they can be shipped without losing structural integrity.

Me personally I work for a shipping company (not UPS or DHL) but a rather large one which we have strict standards on the types of cardboard that can be used for items and also how many times you can ship it without losing structural integrity. I wouldn't feel comfortable shipping the W1 in the original box without fear of some type of damage that UPS tends to do with Ground items.

I apologize if this post uncomfortable, but I guess I'm bummed about that I have a pair of U1's that one is damaged. Also I cannot report a claim for shipping because it would be considered concealed damage and inadequate packaging. Lastly, I cannot get another W1 replacement due to that NHT as a company is out of them.

P.S. I PM'd you, if you'd like to speak about his offline please PM me back. I can provide photos for you.

1) Welcome back, Jack! I, for one, have really missed your input over the past few (crazy) weeks.

2) Enough about packaging - what about everything else? Can you tell us anything yet?

3) Advice: for my den (currently much older B&W 805's in a mild HT setup, used 50/50 but if music, it is almost always background) I'm considering either 4's (eventually bi-amped, no sub, but just 125W/channel to each at first) or T5s. The "Special Dark" 4s are currently less expensive, but with the X2 and A1 they'll cost about the same, with 2 A1s the 4's would be more expensive. The problem is that due to furniture placement, the speakers can extend no more than 22" from the wall. My thought (and of course, Mark Russ agrees) is that the T5s, with boundary equalization, can be placed flat against the wall and will extend only about 18", while the 4's, for best sound, should be at least 10" from the wall, making them extend 26" - is that correct? (BTW, no planning on replacing the current small Boston Acoustic surrounds as the real home theater is now downstairs - C3s, AZs, and (4)A2s).

Peter

Sorry everyone for my rant and my off-topic behavior.

What specifically do you think was so bad about the W1 packaging? You stated that is was much worse than other NHT products you have purchased.


C'mon now Jack. It's not *bad*, just inadequate to the job - crush distance is way too little, aside from being unprotected over most of the speaker. I had to beg NHT repeatedly not to ship them via UPS and started simply refusing the ones that came in damaged after awhile. Don't think I ever got credit for those either. We were getting about 1 out of 3 coming in damaged via UPS, not that they're not partly to blame, and those were the virgin ones. Sometimes the replacements for a damaged one would come in damaged.

Of course, this also applies to the B6 and to a lesser extent, M5s, W2s, M6s, M5s as these got shipping damage in much higher numbers, more like 1 in 10 rather than 1 in 3, but higher than normal. I've never experienced, to my recollection, a damaged SuperAudio or Classic product as they were much better packed for their mass. Occasionally a 2.9 or VT 2.4.

No sense complaining about it now, I'm just saying is all and hope the S20s and M80s get better packing!

Good points. The U1 and the U2 both certainly have some advantages over each other. That's why you should just get dual W1s to have the best of both worlds. Dual W1s is the bomb! :eek:

I'm working on it! Jeez...pushypushy


:)



They arrived yesterday, Mr.Russ. Patience is ever so virtuous. :)

hi everyone,
got a question with my surround positioning. currently, i have my m6's pointed directly at my listening position. with this setting, i can hear great direct sound, though, when off of my LP, i tend not to hear my surrounds and mainly front stage. should i rotate the speakers at an angle? i am not sure what to do?

hi everyone,
got a question with my surround positioning. currently, i have my m6's pointed directly at my listening position. with this setting, i can hear great direct sound, though, when off of my LP, i tend not to hear my surrounds and mainly front stage. should i rotate the speakers at an angle? i am not sure what to do?

They should be pointed straight ahead parallel to each other with no toe in due to their VFIG.

They arrived yesterday, Mr.Russ. Patience is ever so virtuous. :)


Congrats! Are you gonna get the 20 Hz mod for their X1 now that you have the recommended 4 drivers for it?

thanks mark russ. i will try that tonight!!!!!!
art

Congrats! Are you gonna get the 20 Hz mod for their X1 now that you have the recommended 4 drivers for it?Sneezy,

If you're visiting the DC area and want to A/B the 20 Hz mod, let me know (of course, my system is into the superior 4 W2s :D).

Sneezy,

If you're visiting the DC area and want to A/B the 20 Hz mod, let me know (of course, my system is into the superior 4 W2s :D).

That's a good point, just as the U2 does have some advantages over the U1, quad W2s also do have some advantages over dual W1s.

Of course, you could also get most of the best of both worlds there too by getting quad W1s (a total of eight 12" drivers and four A1 amps) like me. :D

1) Welcome back, Jack! I, for one, have really missed your input over the past few (crazy) weeks.

That's true. The fact that he started back posting is encouraging. :cool:

Congrats! Are you gonna get the 20 Hz mod for their X1 now that you have the recommended 4 drivers for it?

Oh, I dunno. Room is borderline too small for them as is. 1450ft3.

I do have 2 X1s, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to ship one off. That is, if the rumors of NHT's demise prove to be a bit exaggerated. Since they didn't kill Jack to keep him from loosing their secrets maybe it is possible.

Or is that not really Jack...could be a B&W plant you know.

Jack, it isn't paranoia if they really ARE after you.

:-)

Sneezy,

If you're visiting the DC area and want to A/B the 20 Hz mod, let me know (of course, my system is into the superior 4 W2s :D).

A very kind offer sir, and appreciated. I must say that in all honesty I can not imagine any circumstance that will have me anywhere near DC any time soon, or the next 20 years for that matter.

Regarding the 4 U2s...superior or not I have approaced the physical limits of my rack, my available floorspace and my wife's tolerance. All of these points conspire to make it quite impossible to add more boxes. In fact, I am going to have to haul some stuff out to make room for the W1s.

Cheers!

A very kind offer sir, and appreciated. I must say that in all honesty I can not imagine any circumstance that will have me anywhere near DC any time soon, or the next 20 years for that matter.I thought North Carolina was near DC. My daughter drives there to visit friends all the time from DC.

Oh, I dunno. Room is borderline too small for them as is. 1450ft3.

Dual W1s in a room that small? All I can say is DAMN! :eek:

But the great thing is, with the X1, you can dial them in and make them work in that room just as well as they would in a 4000 square foot room. ;)

So has anyone ran full amplification from the A1's?

Go to the receiver/amp section. You might have to use the search function to find it, but I believe I've seen a thread on the Outlaw monoblocks, which will prolly have posts like what you are looking for here.

A very kind offer sir, and appreciated. I must say that in all honesty I can not imagine any circumstance that will have me anywhere near DC any time soon, or the next 20 years for that matter.

Regarding the 4 U2s...superior or not I have approaced the physical limits of my rack, my available floorspace and my wife's tolerance. All of these points conspire to make it quite impossible to add more boxes. In fact, I am going to have to haul some stuff out to make room for the W1s.

Cheers!
It's been a while since anyone called me "sir" :)
I have my W2s stacked 2 and 2, which takes up less floor space than a W1 and a W1, but is a little taller. That flat top would be useful for a turntable if I left them turned off ;)
I won't say you're missing much not coming to DC. I used to live in Winston-Salem, and miss it badly. That said, I live in Maryland, which is much nicer, and almost on the way to Philadelphia or NYC.

I thought North Carolina was near DC. My daughter drives there to visit friends all the time from DC.
NC is a huge state. People don't realize that it would take 10 hours to drive from Duck to Murphy (not that anyone in their right mind would want to - I hope Sneezy doesn't live in Murphy...). It's about 3.5 hours from Norlina (just over the border on I-95) to my house.

Peter

you could also get most of the best of both worlds there too by getting quad W1s (a total of eight 12" drivers and four A1 amps) like me. :D 4xW1...you are 1 sick puppy; why stop at 4, go with 8 stacking 2 in ea corner. ;)

Dual W1s in a room that small? All I can say is DAMN! :eek:

But the great thing is, with the X1, you can dial them in and make them work in that room just as well as they would in a 4000 square foot room. ;)

Well, it isn't a sealed room. It does flow into an equal space via a door sized opening. I think DAMN :eek: still applies, though. :)

I thought North Carolina was near DC. My daughter drives there to visit friends all the time from DC.

Geographically speaking it is only a 7 hour drive. I have been there on several occasions and can say that it is much further in other respects. No disrespect intended to those that love DC. I am sure they would find my humble town comical. ;)

NC is a huge state. People don't realize that it would take 10 hours to drive from Duck to Murphy (not that anyone in their right mind would want to - I hope Sneezy doesn't live in Murphy...). It's about 3.5 hours from Norlina (just over the border on I-95) to my house.

Peter

Actually I am roughly halfway between your old haunt in Winston-Salem and Charlotte. Closest town of any size is Salisbury, I suppose. I believe you have one of those up there in Maryland, as well. Nice town, Salisbury... :cool:

Just an update on my dented U1, HighDefLifestyles thought they were getting a returned unopened U1 in stock however upon receipt they opened the factory sealed box and it too had a dent in it. Thus I will be looking for another W1 or U1 to replace mine. Ugggh.

http://www.mmsean.com/sale/U1.jpg

As long as no air is escaping, I'd just get a color matching permanent marker and try to hide it as good as possible. ;)

As long as no air is escaping, I'd just get a color matching permanent marker and try to hide it as good as possible. ;)

Unfortunately I'm a bit OCD and considering it was new I am on a quest to find another. If anyone knows of a local dealer willing to sell a W1 let me know please.

Oh, I agree - I'd want and expect a new one to be unblemished too, but since there's prolly not going to be another unblemished new one you can exchange yours back in for, and considering the price you prolly got it for, I'd just live with it as is rather than do without it if there's no other alternative.

Just sayin'. ;)

Yeah Mark I know it just seems weird that NHT doesn't even have pieces to fix back up cabinets for warranty work etc? I asked to have them just swap the internals with a new cabinet and they said they didn't have any. I thought that you had to have parts for warranty claims....

Unfortunately, that is what happens when they blow everything out (literally) like they apparently did all the Evo and SD Classic gear.

For example, I don't know if it's true or not, and it certainly sounds logical, but I heard that the all the "new" previously discontinued B5 and B6 pairs that were recently put up for sale were some units they had been holding back in reserve for any potential warranty claims.

I've also heard that pretty much the only close out products NHT has left in stock at this point that haven't already been sold, or at least already in the hands of dealers, is X1s, A1s, and SD Four pairs. Again, don't know how accurate that really is, but it definitely sounds believable enough.

There is an authorized dealer who has some W1s, but I believe they want to sell them as part of an M6 system (Z1: 3 M6s, 2 W1s, 2 A1s, 1 X1). PM me if you want to get in touch with them.

Peter

will be setting up my second u1 this weekend. but the evolutions owners manual has no setup guidelines for doing it so i was hoping some of you "dualist" could help me with it. plus my owners manual said to hook up my u1 out of phase which john said was incorrect and i have read where there are a couple of other mistakes in the owners manual so perhaps it is better to get help from those who have been there and done it anyway. i can't wait to engage the stereo mode. one other thing is it usually best to place the subwoofers as close to the satellites as possible or place them in corners. i will probably try both but i was just wondering about "rule of thumb" if there is such a thing on this.

will be setting up my second u1 this weekend. but the evolutions owners manual has no setup guidelines for doing it so i was hoping some of you "dualist" could help me with it. plus my owners manual said to hook up my u1 out of phase which john said was incorrect and i have read where there are a couple of other mistakes in the owners manual so perhaps it is better to get help from those who have been there and done it anyway. i can't wait to engage the stereo mode. one other thing is it usually best to place the subwoofers as close to the satellites as possible or place them in corners. i will probably try both but i was just wondering about "rule of thumb" if there is such a thing on this.

I don't know where you are getting that the Evo manual says this from, but if you look at the W1's wiring diagram in Section 5.6, it very clearly shows the W1 wired in phase with the A1. IOW - positive to positive and negative to negative.

Anyways, IMO the W1 is not ideal for corner placement at any rate since at least one of it's drivers will see a big, close wall boundary, and since you will be using them in true stereo, if I were you, I wouldn't put them in corners if possible.

Make sure you have a full range (unfiltered) L/R signal going into the X1's main inputs, set your X1 to stereo, your high pass filter (if you are using the X1's high pass outputs) absolutely no higher than 80 Hz (unless each W1 is very close by it's matching main L/R satellite, in which case 110 Hz would be your only other option anyway), and make sure the X1's L/R sub outputs are going to the corresponding A1 driving that particular channel's W1.

I don't know where you are getting that the Evo manual says this from, but if you look at the W1's wiring diagram in Section 5.6, it very clearly shows the W1 wired in phase with the A1. IOW - positive to positive and negative to negative.

Anyways, IMO the W1 is not ideal for corner placement at any rate since at least one of it's drivers will see a big, close wall boundary, and since you will be using them in true stereo, if I were you, I wouldn't put them in corners if possible.

Make sure you have a full range (unfiltered) L/R signal going into the X1's main inputs, set your X1 to stereo, your high pass filter (if you are using the X1's high pass outputs) absolutely no higher than 80 Hz (unless each W1 is very close by it's matching main L/R satellite, in which case 110 Hz would be your only other option anyway), and make sure the X1's L/R sub outputs are going to the corresponding A1 driving that particular channel's W1.

I agree (not that anyone cares). The W1 should be placed either "in the room" or along a wall, but not in a corner. That is why I got U2s - my room called for corner placement.

Peter

mark if you would pm me your fax # i would like to fax you the diagram in question.

I have been playing around with my new U-2 subwoofers as well as my older SW-2P subwoofers (stacked pair in corner crossed at 50 Hz).


I have tested the following:

SW-2P's with original amplifier (27 Hz HP).

SW-2P's with original amplifier modified with 20 Hz HP.

X-1 and A-1 with original HP (27 Hz area). I don't have the 20 Hz mod unit yet.



Anyhow, the X-1 and A-1 (27 Hz HP) sounds the same as the SW-2P's with the original amplifier (27 Hz HP).


The original amplifier modified to the 20 Hz HP filter with the same speakers in the same location smoked both the standard 27 Hz HP units as far as low end is concerned. A standard 27 hz HP just does not cut it.


The SW-2P's are ported, and the 20 Hz HP modification does not strain them at all when LP'd at 50 Hz. Why is there such a big deal about the 20 Hz mod for the U-1's and U-2's? You may get a bit less maximum output, so I guess they want you need to double up on the drivers to maintain that maximum SPL.

However, a corner location picks up an extra 6 dB, so a pair of W-2's in a corner should be adequate even with the 20 Hz HP modification.


By the way, are service schematics available for the A-1 and X-1? It would be nice to pick them up for future service if needed.

By the way, are service schematics available for the A-1 and X-1? It would be nice to pick them up for future service if needed.

Click here to download the X2's manual:

http://nhthifi.com/2006/manuals/current/X2_Manual.pdf

It has one for the X2 on the third page, and I don't feel like trying to find the post to quote it right now, but Jack has said before that it is identical to the X1's. :p

I don't know where you are getting that the Evo manual says this from, but if you look at the W1's wiring diagram in Section 5.6, it very clearly shows the W1 wired in phase with the A1. IOW - positive to positive and negative to negative.

Anyways, IMO the W1 is not ideal for corner placement at any rate since at least one of it's drivers will see a big, close wall boundary, and since you will be using them in true stereo, if I were you, I wouldn't put them in corners if possible.

Make sure you have a full range (unfiltered) L/R signal going into the X1's main inputs, set your X1 to stereo, your high pass filter (if you are using the X1's high pass outputs) absolutely no higher than 80 Hz (unless each W1 is very close by it's matching main L/R satellite, in which case 110 Hz would be your only other option anyway), and make sure the X1's L/R sub outputs are going to the corresponding A1 driving that particular channel's W1.



Go to page 35 and 36. The polarity switch is set to 180 degrees instead of 0 degrees. That is the same as connecting red to black (out of phase).

http://nhthifi.com/2006/manuals/current/EvolutionUserGuide.pdf

mark if you would pm me your fax # i would like to fax you the diagram in question.

Here is what I was talking about, click here, and then find the U1/W1 wiring diagram in section 5.6:

http://nhthifi.com/2006/manuals/current/EvolutionUserGuide.pdf

Click here to download the X2's manual:

http://nhthifi.com/2006/manuals/current/X2_Manual.pdf

It has one for the X2 on the third page, and I don't feel like trying to find the post to quote it right now, but Jack has said before that it is identical to the X1's. :p



That manual only has a basic block diagram. I mean a circuit schematic drawing that I can use to figure out how to modify the X-1 HP filter and EQ to suit my own purposes.

I noticed that the X-2 has a 20 Hz HP filter in that block diagram.

Go to page 35 and 36. The polarity switch is set to 180 degrees instead of 0 degrees. That is the same as connecting red to black (out of phase).

http://nhthifi.com/2006/manuals/current/EvolutionUserGuide.pdf

For the T5/T6, yes, but for the U1/U2, it is showing 0 degrees as the recommended basic starting point.

That manual only has a basic block diagram. I mean a circuit schematic drawing that I can use to figure out how to modify the X-1 HP filter and EQ to suit my own purposes.

Can't help you there. Maybe call NHT to see if they have a service manual available for them.

I noticed that the X-2 has a 20 Hz HP filter in that block diagram.

So it does. I never really noticed that before. I guess that defeats the purpose of adding a sub with extension below 20 Hz to a pair of Fours with an X2 to integrate them then, huh? :p

For the T5/T6, yes, but for the U1/U2, it is showing 0 degrees as the recommended basic starting point.


I know. In theory, the T5/T6 setup should not be that different from the U1/U2 setup. Except for the cabinet, a T5 bass unit is the same as a U2.

I know. In theory, the T5/T6 setup should not be that different from the U1/U2 setup. Except for the cabinet, a T5 bass unit is the same as a U2.

Yep, I'm guessing maybe it has something to do with the "point source" alignment of B5s/B6s with the M5s/M6s?

Edit - I do have an Evo sub addendum somewhere that does have slightly different recommended basic starting points than the manual currently on the NHT site, but as I recall, Jack has stated before that the current one on the site is the latest, and superseded even the "addendum" I have when I asked him about it.

Can't help you there.



So it does. I never really noticed that before. I guess that defeats the purpose of adding a sub with extension below 20 Hz to a pair of Fours with an X2 to integrate them then, huh? :p



A 20 Hz low end FR sounds very nice to my ears. The 27 Hz cutoff point is a poor choice. Maybe a 15 Hz cutoff is also a poor choice. I suspect that many retail subwoofers sound "bad" for that same reason - a high HP cutoff so the subwoofer can put out more SPL's. Funny thing is, when the bottom end FR will give you 20 Hz, you don't need to play the subwoofer as loud for it to sound good.

I think that the old NHT SA-3 subwoofer amplifier had an external HP filter. The raw amplifer was good for 10 Hz, and you had to add the HP external to the amplifier.

I bi-amp my 2.9's with no HP filter in the amplifier circuit.

A 20 Hz low end FR sounds very nice to my ears. The 27 Hz cutoff point is a poor choice. Maybe a 15 Hz cutoff is also a poor choice. I suspect that many retail subwoofers sound "bad" for that same reason - a high HP cutoff so the subwoofer can put out more SPL's. Funny thing is, when the bottom end FR will give you 20 Hz, you don't need to play the subwoofer as loud for it to sound good.

I think that the old NHT SA-3 subwoofer amplifier had an external HP filter. The raw amplifer was good for 10 Hz, and you had to add the HP external to the amplifier.

I bi-amp my 2.9's with no HP filter in the amplifier circuit.

I wonder what the below 27 Hz roll off sounds like when using the X1 on ported subs. :p

I've got a couple of old SA-3s, but don't use them anymore. :o

Yep, I'm guessing maybe it has something to do with the "point source" alignment of B5s/B6s with the M5s/M6s?

Edit - I do have an Evo sub addendum somewhere that does have slightly different recommended basic starting points than the manual currently on the NHT site, but as I recall, Jack has stated before that the current one on the site is the latest, and superseded even the "addendum" I have when I asked him about it.



Funny thing is if you wanted to add a U-1 or U-2 to the T system, you would need to set them all up to have the same phase.

I wonder what the below 27 Hz roll off sounds like when using the X1 on ported subs. :p

I've got a couple of old SA-3s, but don't use them anymore. :o


I modified the SA-2 for a 20 Hz HP, and it sounds just fine with the ported SW-2P's. Then again, you need at least a pair of stacked SW-2P's to make this work. Stacked 4 high would be even better.

I am sure that the 20 Hz HP is a good choice for almost any ported subwoofer. It is needed for the sealed U-1's and U-2's also.

It's
NC is a huge state. People don't realize that it would take 10 hours to drive from Duck to Murphy (not that anyone in their right mind would want to - I hope Sneezy doesn't live in Murphy...). It's about 3.5 hours from Norlina (just over the border on I-95) to my house.

Peter

yes, most people don't :D. that's how they sucker people into Chapel Hill with lines like "it's perfectly centered between the ocean and the mountains" forgetting to mention that equally centered in a long state like NC really means equally distant :eek: and means a trip to the shore would be like when i was in boston driving all the way down to the jersey shore and a trip to the mountains would be worse than driving to the catskills when i was in NJ. :D or maybe really :( or perhaps even :mad:

yeah, i have to say that i don't exactly consider DC close to NC :eek:.
heck, i know some people who don't even drive that, but always fly.
it's the half-wayish point, actually more than halfway from chapel hill to northern NJ and the area that has nightmare traffic it hit it wrong. so like maybe 4-5 hours. of course if you hit stuff (accidents or traffic) or drive slowly it can be somewhat longer ;).

Hey im somewhat new to the home audio thing. I just purchased a pair of NHT Classic 4s, Classic 3 Center, and SuperZero Surrounds (i plan to add a pair of Classic 3s for a 7 piece system at some point).

But im really confussed as far as the A1 amps go. Ive read some reviews of the classic 4s and they used them (and i x2 crossover) and i was hoping to get some expert opinions if thats something i should invest in a pair of for the NHT Classic 4s. I havent bought a receiver yet and my budget is probably 1.5kish for one. Any thoughts? Thanks a lot!

My basic System will be
-PS3 for blu-ray/dvd playback and music output (so it will upscale everything for me so i need not a receiver to do so)
-Sony KDS-55A3000 rear projection 1080p tv
-NHT Classic 4s Front
-NHT Classic 3 center
-NHT Classic 3 Surrounds
-NHT SuperZero 6/7 speakers
-Now reciever, amps, pre-amps, crossovers is where i get confused. I really dont know what the best way to go is. Id like to spend like 2k tops, but if something was really worth while id potentially go higher.

The system will used for home theater viewing, hd digital camcorder viewing (hooked in directly via hdmi or through the PS3), and music.

Any/All suggestions and help is welcome

Thanks!

But im really confussed as far as the A1 amps go. Ive read some reviews of the classic 4s and they used them (and i x2 crossover) and i was hoping to get some expert opinions if thats something i should invest in a pair of for the NHT Classic 4s. I havent bought a receiver yet and my budget is probably 1.5kish for one. Any thoughts? Thanks a lot!

As far as bi-amping the Fours, buy your receiver first and see if you're happy with bass performance. If you're not, get the X2 and A1s. Although you might be seeing some good deals on A1s as inventory gets cleared out, so if you see something, it won't hurt to go for it.

There's also the possibility of getting a different amp instead of the A1. And if it has volume control, you could even get by without the X2.

As far as receivers, you should consider NAD, Cambridge Audio, and Emotiva (internet distributor). NAD is a pretty popular favorite, although these days Cambridge and Emotiva might offer a little more for the money. With Emotiva you could even get separates in your price range.

I know some people around here like their HK gear too, and you could also consider Onkyo, Denon, and Marantz.

NHT's Controller/Power5 combo is nice but out of your price range...

For example, I don't know if it's true or not, and it certainly sounds logical, but I heard that the all the "new" previously discontinued B5 and B6 pairs that were recently put up for sale were some units they had been holding back in reserve for any potential warranty claims.

I was told they simply didn't have all the parts to sell off the last few sets, but then they located them. But I don't know. NHT is always "finding" product in its warehouses, like the 5 or 10 pairs of 2.9s in Sycamore they found and shipped me one time. Who knows.......

Funny thing is if you wanted to add a U-1 or U-2 to the T system, you would need to set them all up to have the same phase.

You could add more than one X1 to the system.

Also, there is an LFE out on the X1/X2, but I've never actually tried them before. :o

yes, most people don't :D. that's how they sucker people into Chapel Hill with lines like "it's perfectly centered between the ocean and the mountains" forgetting to mention that equally centered in a long state like NC really means equally distant :eek: and means a trip to the shore would be like when i was in boston driving all the way down to the jersey shore and a trip to the mountains would be worse than driving to the catskills when i was in NJ. :D or maybe really :( or perhaps even :mad:

yeah, i have to say that i don't exactly consider DC close to NC :eek:.
heck, i know some people who don't even drive that, but always fly.
it's the half-wayish point, actually more than halfway from chapel hill to northern NJ and the area that has nightmare traffic it hit it wrong. so like maybe 4-5 hours. of course if you hit stuff (accidents or traffic) or drive slowly it can be somewhat longer ;).

Yep, there are counties in NC bigger than Rhode Island! :eek::p

Hey im somewhat new to the home audio thing. I just purchased a pair of NHT Classic 4s, Classic 3 Center, and SuperZero Surrounds (i plan to add a pair of Classic 3s for a 7 piece system at some point).

But im really confussed as far as the A1 amps go. Ive read some reviews of the classic 4s and they used them (and i x2 crossover) and i was hoping to get some expert opinions if thats something i should invest in a pair of for the NHT Classic 4s. I havent bought a receiver yet and my budget is probably 1.5kish for one. Any thoughts? Thanks a lot!

My basic System will be
-PS3 for blu-ray/dvd playback and music output (so it will upscale everything for me so i need not a receiver to do so)
-Sony KDS-55A3000 rear projection 1080p tv
-NHT Classic 4s Front
-NHT Classic 3 center
-NHT Classic 3 Surrounds
-NHT SuperZero 6/7 speakers
-Now reciever, amps, pre-amps, crossovers is where i get confused. I really dont know what the best way to go is. Id like to spend like 2k tops, but if something was really worth while id potentially go higher.

The system will used for home theater viewing, hd digital camcorder viewing (hooked in directly via hdmi or through the PS3), and music.

Any/All suggestions and help is welcome

Thanks!

Somewhat contrary to what Matt said, I would highly recommend adding an X2 and A1s to a pair of Fours. The X2 will give you a spectacular amount of control over your bass instead of simply moving them closer to or further away from the walls behind and/or beside of them. Plus you can dial in flat response for 2 channel music with it at the same time along with a little extra LFE kick on movies.

Yes, the amp(s) for the subs doesn't necessarily have to be A1s, but in addition to being fine performers, particularly as bass amps, they also perfectly math the X2/X1 cosmetically, and they are designed to sit just above the active crossovers and have a sweet little row of lights under them that illuminate the crossover's controls. ;)

Just make sure if you get an AVR, it at the very least has a set of main L/R pre-outs.

I was told they simply didn't have all the parts to sell off the last few sets, but then they located them. But I don't know. NHT is always "finding" product in its warehouses, like the 5 or 10 pairs of 2.9s in Sycamore they found and shipped me one time. Who knows.......

I'll bet that even to this day, if they found some NOS 2.9s in sycamore, they would all sell pretty quick. ;)

Somewhat contrary to what Matt said, I would highly recommend adding an X2 and A1s to a pair of Fours. The X2 will give you a spectacular amount of control over your bass instead of simply moving them closer to or further away from the walls behind and/or beside of them. Plus you can dial in flat response for 2 channel music with it at the same time along with a little extra LFE kick on movies.

Yes, the amp(s) for the subs doesn't necessarily have to be A1s, but in addition to being fine performers, particularly as bass amps, they also perfectly math the X2/X1 cosmetically, and they are designed to sit just above the active crossovers and have a sweet little row of lights under them that illuminate the crossover's controls. ;)

Just make sure if you get an AVR, it at the very least has a set of main L/R pre-outs.

Definitely get pre-outs on your AVR.

As far as the X2/A1 goes, Mark's heard the Fours with it; I haven't. I'm just saying it probably won't hurt to see if you think you need them first. And that there may be cheaper ways to biamp the Fours as well. But if Mark says it makes a big difference, I certainly can't argue with that :-)

Definitely get pre-outs on your AVR.

As far as the X2/A1 goes, Mark's heard the Fours with it; I haven't. I'm just saying it probably won't hurt to see if you think you need them first. And that there may be cheaper ways to biamp the Fours as well. But if Mark says it makes a big difference, I certainly can't argue with that :-)Not JUST pre-outs, but with jumpers to power amp input, so you can put the X2 in between preamp and power amp. My Pioneer receiver has pre-out and power-amp in, but they can't be used in combination to put something between preamp and power amp... :mad:

Peter

I just bought a Classic 10" on Ebay to supplant my Absolute Zero/Classic2C fronstage. WOW, my HT just came to life!

Matt/Mark... Thanks for the input. You guys clearly know what ur talking about.

And yea i found some open box A1 with full warranty for $200 +sh each. So besides the cool little lights (haha), its a pretty good price for the pair. Mark seems think the A1s make a definite difference and has used um. So assuming you guys dont think the open box thing wont be an issue, Id need a receiver. Any recommendations of the following? They all have the 7.1 pre-amp outputs u guys mentioned. Or do u think it would be more benefical to ditch the A1s/X2 and get a better receiver? I guess im looking for what would be the best way to spend the money here to get a pretty great system for what i plan to use it for (blu-ray/ps3/dvds with the ps3, wii, music).

Thanks again

Marantz SR4002
Onkyo TX-SR605 (actually i dont see pre-amps for the 605... so maybe just the 805)/805
HK AVR 347

Not JUST pre-outs, but with jumpers to power amp input, so you can put the X2 in between preamp and power amp. My Pioneer receiver has pre-out and power-amp in, but they can't be used in combination to put something between preamp and power amp... :mad:

Peter


Well, with the X2 on Fours, you don't have to have main-ins too, unless you want to also use the X2's high pass outputs and get into double filtering, which Jack actually recommends, but can be complicated.

As for the X1/X2's high pass outputs, I'd rather not use them if I don't have to and I also have a higher end pre-amp section, but on most typical AVRs at his price point, I don't think the crossovers' high pass outs are really gonna hurt anything. :p

I just bought a Classic 10" on Ebay to supplant my Absolute Zero/Classic2C fronstage. WOW, my HT just came to life!

Congrats. Since you already have one anyway, and at these prices the SD models are going for now, why not grab another? ;)

Matt/Mark... Thanks for the input. You guys clearly know what ur talking about.

And yea i found some open box A1 with full warranty for $200 +sh each. So besides the cool little lights (haha), its a pretty good price for the pair. Mark seems think the A1s make a definite difference and has used um. So assuming you guys dont think the open box thing wont be an issue, Id need a receiver. Any recommendations of the following? They all have the 7.1 pre-amp outputs u guys mentioned. Or do u think it would be more benefical to ditch the A1s/X2 and get a better receiver? I guess im looking for what would be the best way to spend the money here to get a pretty great system for what i plan to use it for (blu-ray/ps3/dvds with the ps3, wii, music).

Thanks again

Marantz SR4002
Onkyo TX-SR605 (actually i dont see pre-amps for the 605... so maybe just the 805)/805
HK AVR 347

Marantz is always a safe bet. Very good sound IMO and always more reliable than HK/NAD it seems. They usually seem to have relatively buggy-free processors.

As for the HK, I say get a 247 instead, and use the savings that will go a long way towards the X2/A1s. :cool:

Definitely get pre-outs on your AVR.

As far as the X2/A1 goes, Mark's heard the Fours with it; I haven't. I'm just saying it probably won't hurt to see if you think you need them first. And that there may be cheaper ways to biamp the Fours as well. But if Mark says it makes a big difference, I certainly can't argue with that :-)

Just imagine your W1 without the X1 and it's ability to tweak, tailor, and fine tune it's sound to your tastes and room - that's really about the equivalent to having Fours with no X2 when you get right down to it. :p

Congrats. Since you already have one anyway, and at these prices the SD models are going for now, why not grab another? ;)


Pusher...

:D

Pusher...

:D

I know - I can spend other people's money even faster than my own (as you well know). :p :D

But seriously, SD Tens are now going for $299 shipped from authorized dealers, and what bigger and better improvement could he possibly make to his system for $299 than adding another Ten? ;)

I noticed that the X-2 has a 20 Hz HP filter in that block diagram.

Hmm, I wonder if the 20 Hz mod for X1s is simply nothing more than putting the same 20 Hz HP filter that the X2 has in to replace the one it came with?

Could be, I have the orig & modded schematics if you'd like to take a look. :)

Could be, I have the orig & modded schematics if you'd like to take a look. :)

I'd like to take a look at those!

How difficult to drive Classics 4? I lent a friend my Rotel rsx-1055, he complained (he does not to turn volume over 11 0'clock); yes, he's one of few people can hear the struggle of an amp even not fully crank up (I know, some never believe such thing). How much power does Classics 4 needs? By the way, he has the pricey full set from NHT, but he is changing his taste to Rotel.

well, to be completely honest, the sound of an amp straining is really almost always the sound of a speaker straining. That being said, they're harder to drive than most speakers that also "reveal the sound of your amp straining". He might be hearing a touch of resonance from the mid dome. Or maybe his room is a little hard. Or something like that.

going through the evo owners manual this weekend i came across something in section 8.1 which raised a question for me. it states "two subwoofers can be used for stereo bass (which is desirble for music reproduction) or for additional mono bass reinforcement (for movie soundtracks)." does this mean switching back and forth whether listening to music or watching movies? i suspect that once you switch it to stereo that it automatically adjusts for both but i wanted to run it by those that know. also is it advisable to sandwich the x1 btween two a1s or does it matter. we are still in learning mode here with this new equipment which is why i love this thread.

Marantz is always a safe bet. Very good sound IMO and always more reliable than HK/NAD it seems. They usually seem to have relatively buggy-free processors.

As for the HK, I say get a 247 instead, and use the savings that will go a long way towards the X2/A1s. :cool:

Mark, I'm surprised to no see you pushing Cambridge here. Aren't you a fan or am I thinking of someone else?

I've been quite happy with my NAD, but I think it looks like the newer models aren't as good a deal as they used to be.

I haven't heard the HK/Marantz/Onkyo models you mentioned. I started out with an Onkyo but it was the entry-level model and definitely sonically inferior to my current NAD. I guess after that experience I tend to be biased against the "mass market brands". I like to think there's some logic behind that bias, but I couldn't swear to it :rolleyes:

The trick with AVRs seems to be balancing sound quality and features at a price point. Figure out what features you have to have, and then see which receivers in your price range fit the bill. Listen to them if you can, read some reviews.

Without knowing more about what you're looking for it's hard to pick a specific brand/model out.

going through the evo owners manual this weekend i came across something in section 8.1 which raised a question for me. it states "two subwoofers can be used for stereo bass (which is desirble for music reproduction) or for additional mono bass reinforcement (for movie soundtracks)." does this mean switching back and forth whether listening to music or watching movies? i suspect that once you switch it to stereo that it automatically adjusts for both but i wanted to run it by those that know. also is it advisable to sandwich the x1 btween two a1s or does it matter. we are still in learning mode here with this new equipment which is why i love this thread.

I think they are referring to the X1's ability to pipe the L/R channel bass contained in music recordings to it's appropriate L/R sub box in addition to having the LFE out of your processor also connected (to the X1). With L/R speakers set to Large and Subwoofer set to On the inputs to the X1 are summed, so L/R channel bass is sent to it's assigned box and any LFE contained in a movie track as a mono signal is sent to both sub boxes. No switching back and forth is needed as it is dependent upon the recording.

I am working on a similar setup and it appears to me that in order to properly do the stereo bass thing one either needs an integrated amp with Line Out AND Main In connections OR separate amplifiers for the L/R channels. For me, since I have a Denon processor (with which until now I was very happy) this means I get to buy at least two monoblock amps. I might as well get three so the front stage is all driven equally.

This hobby is a friggin' money pit. :o

Did I get that right? Somebody correct or clarify the gibberish above if necessary...except for the last line, I am 100% confident in that one.

I don't think it's worth the energy and money to get stereo bass for most people. But you could just add an amp so you can export the full stereo bass to the X1. Or get the really cool NAD Masters M3.

Wow...I cant believe I just ordered the Classic Four in the dark wood finish but it was hard not to pass up the $1k discount just because of the color! I had planned on p/u the Vincent SP-331 2x150wpc hybrid tube amp for my 2.5is (which I MUST now sell lol) and am wondering if it'll be adequate to drive the Classic Fours...I really do not want to bi-amp the speakers. We'll see how my Rotel rb-1080 handles the new speakers first...

Regards,
Ricky

The M3 is cool, and should be for ~$3K. :eek:

The more I look into it, the more I think I fit into you "most people" category, at least regarding stereo bass (especially considering that I use L5's across the front).

Cue Mr. Pusher, who will come along and say "Damn the expense and forget the mortgage, your daughter doesn't REALLY need to eat! Do it! Do it NOW!". :D

True stereo bass with the X1 is not really all that complicated. Bottom line - if you have any piece of equipment, be it an AVR, a 2 channel stereo receiver, or integrated amp with both pre-outs and main-ins, or, any true separates of any kind (and this would even include using the pre-outs of an AVR to a separate power amp(s), even for just the main L/R channels), you can have stereo bass just so long as you obviously have dual matching Evo sub cabinets of any kind (be it W2s, W1s, B5s, or B6s), and two A1 power amps to drive them.

There are also some 2 channel electronics that will also allow you to have stereo bass while at the same time avoiding the X1's high pass outputs because they have their own built in bass management, along with also the ability to send a full range (unfiltered) main L/R signals to the X1 at the same time. Some I know of in addition to the NAD M3 integrated amp John has already mentioned are the B&K Reference 5 S2 tuner/pre-amp, the Emotiva RSP-1 pre-amp, and the Parasound Classic 2100 pre-amp.

Wow...I cant believe I just ordered the Classic Four in the dark wood finish but it was hard not to pass up the $1k discount just because of the color! I had planned on p/u the Vincent SP-331 2x150wpc hybrid tube amp for my 2.5is (which I MUST now sell lol) and am wondering if it'll be adequate to drive the Classic Fours...I really do not want to bi-amp the speakers. We'll see how my Rotel rb-1080 handles the new speakers first...

Regards,
Ricky

Congrats. The Fours are a big step up over the 2.5is.

For me, since I have a Denon processor (with which until now I was very happy) this means I get to buy at least two monoblock amps. I might as well get three so the front stage is all driven equally.

This hobby is a friggin' money pit. :o

Simple my brother, just pick up three A1s for the front stage at their current close out prices, which should run you between $600 to $700 shipped. ;)

How difficult to drive Classics 4?

The impedance of the Classic Four indicates a ported enclosure tuned to approximately 27Hz, with a minimum impedance of 5.2Ω at 143Hz. Its nominal specified impedance of 8Ω matched our measurements. The speaker's sensitivity is approximately 87dB/2.83V/m. It should be an easy load for any reasonably well-designed amplifier or AV receiver.

reference:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/1206nht34/index5.html

Mark, I'm surprised to no see you pushing Cambridge here. Aren't you a fan or am I thinking of someone else?

I've been quite happy with my NAD, but I think it looks like the newer models aren't as good a deal as they used to be.

I haven't heard the HK/Marantz/Onkyo models you mentioned. I started out with an Onkyo but it was the entry-level model and definitely sonically inferior to my current NAD. I guess after that experience I tend to be biased against the "mass market brands". I like to think there's some logic behind that bias, but I couldn't swear to it :rolleyes:

The trick with AVRs seems to be balancing sound quality and features at a price point. Figure out what features you have to have, and then see which receivers in your price range fit the bill. Listen to them if you can, read some reviews.

Without knowing more about what you're looking for it's hard to pick a specific brand/model out.


True, but he didn't mention CA, which is why I didn't. I was just sticking to the ones he mentioned, but that deal on a V2 540R from AA right now for like $500 is hard to beat for an AVR for anybody who places any emphasis on music at all.

Some comparable AVRs I have or had at those price points are the CA Azur 540R, the NAD T753, a Denon 3803 (or maybe 3802, can't really remember for sure at this point), Marantz SR8400, and the HK AVR635 (or maybe 645, again, I'm not 100% sure which).

I'd put the Denon dead last out of those. It would make a decent pre-pro for movies, but it's power amp section was clearly lacking in comparison to the others.

The CA and NAD both have very good power amp and 2 channel analog pre-amp sections, but lacked the features and bells and whistles, especially for video, of some of the others. Between the two, as good as the T753 is, I think the CA 540R is even better.

The HK is a fantastic pre-pro for movies, along with a decent power amp section too, but it's power amp section is a notch below the NAD and CA IMO.

The Marantz was possibly the best of all these, but in all fairness, it's retail price was somewhat higher too. I just happened to get a great deal on mine for less than $500 shipped when Ubid was blowing them out. :D

Simple my brother, just pick up three A1s for the front stage at their current close out prices, which should run you between $600 to $700 shipped. ;)

Didn't realize the amps were also "on sale". Saw them at at least one of the online dealers at retail...$465 I think.

Ashman, sell me 3 A1s for $500 shipped. I know you have them...you're packrat-ing...I can feel it. :cool:

Didn't realize the amps were also "on sale". Saw them at at least one of the online dealers at retail...$465 I think.

Ashman, sell me 3 A1s for $500 shipped. I know you have them...you're packrat-ing...I can feel it. :cool:

I don't think you are going to get them that cheap - that wouldn't even cover his wholesale costs, much less his shipping. :p

well, to be completely honest, the sound of an amp straining is really almost always the sound of a speaker straining. That being said, they're harder to drive than most speakers that also "reveal the sound of your amp straining". He might be hearing a touch of resonance from the mid dome. Or maybe his room is a little hard. Or something like that.

It has been my experience that the factors in the final sound go in this order:

room/speakers



...



source/pre-amp

...

power amp





...





and finally, maybe wires and cables.

And even if you have all of that as good as you possibly can, a bad recording will still sound like a bad recording. :o

How difficult to drive Classics 4? I lent a friend my Rotel rsx-1055, he complained (he does not to turn volume over 11 0'clock); yes, he's one of few people can hear the struggle of an amp even not fully crank up (I know, some never believe such thing). How much power does Classics 4 needs? By the way, he has the pricey full set from NHT, but he is changing his taste to Rotel.

i'm no authority but with my classics 3s i cannot play near reference level without my avr kicking out. this never happened with my previous nht speakers which had a sensitivity rating of 90. what the heck i needed a new power source anyway.

Sorry if this is a little bit off topic, but has anyone heard and compared the Outlaw lfm-1 EX to the U1/U2? I bought the U2 for a great price but the outlaw costs about the same now and can output down to 16hz. If I have the 20hz mod done, what am I really missing in that 4hz difference when watching movies?

I don't think you are going to get them that cheap - that wouldn't even cover his wholesale costs, much less his shipping. :p

But...but....but...it's Christmas.

:D

Sorry if this is a little bit off topic, but has anyone heard and compared the Outlaw lfm-1 EX to the U1/U2? I bought the U2 for a great price but the outlaw costs about the same now and can output down to 16hz. If I have the 20hz mod done, what am I really missing in that 4hz difference when watching movies?

I have dual U1s with the 20 hz mod along with an Outlaw LFM-1EX. The dual U1s with the 20 hz mod play plenty low and loud and are about the equal of the Outlaw in my room. With the standard low frequency cutoff the Outlaw obviously goes much lower. With a single U1 and the 20hz mod, the Outlaw outpoints the U1 by a lot: just not enough piston area provide the same output down low. If you can do the 20 hz mod and have dual U1s or 2s, then I wouldn't get the Outlaw. Of course, the NHT solution is much more expensive.

I wouldn't give a second thought to the extra 4hz. IMO, you'll be missing nothing giving them up.

I have dual U1s with the 20 hz mod along with an Outlaw LFM-1EX. The dual U1s with the 20 hz mod play plenty low and loud and are about the equal of the Outlaw in my room. With the standard low frequency cutoff the Outlaw obviously goes much lower. With a single U1 and the 20hz mod, the Outlaw outpoints the U1 by a lot: just not enough piston area provide the same output down low. If you can do the 20 hz mod and have dual U1s or 2s, then I wouldn't get the Outlaw. Of course, the NHT solution is much more expensive.

I wouldn't give a second thought to the extra 4hz. IMO, you'll be missing nothing giving them up.

Seems odd given that the U1 has dual 12" vs the single 12" on the outlaw, would think that they are fairly comprable to one another

Seems odd given that the U1 has dual 12" vs the single 12" on the outlaw, would think that they are fairly comprable to one another

Well, no, not really. The NHT U1 uses an overdamped sealed alignment that rolls off the bass prematurely, hence the need for the X1 to provide equalization to lower the cutoff. The reason for the 27hz limit is that a single U1 cannot reproduce the lower frequencies loudly and with low distortion: the cabinet is too small and the eq too great for the woofers in that box. By adding another U1, you get twice the piston area and can equalize lower.

The Outlaw uses a totally different alignment (ported) in a larger box which allows lower tuning and less excursion (since the port is contributing to the sound) for the same frequency/output.

But...but....but...it's Christmas.

:D

Yes, but unfortunately for you, John is a combination of Scrooge and the Grinch, AKA Scrinch (or is it the Grooge)? :p ;):D

Didn't realize the amps were also "on sale". Saw them at at least one of the online dealers at retail...$465 I think.

Ashman, sell me 3 A1s for $500 shipped. I know you have them...you're packrat-ing...I can feel it. :cool:

Oh, I'm packratting alright, but, uhhhh, $500 for three? :eek:

Oh, I'm packratting alright, but, uhhhh, $500 for three? :eek:

Are we negotiating Mr. Scrinch/Grooge?

Oh, I'm packratting alright, but, uhhhh, $500 for three? :eek:

Well, if you were blowing them out that cheap you'd be right up there with everything else at NHT!

Are we negotiating Mr. Scrinch/Grooge?

No, just picking myself off the floor is all........ ;)

Well, if you were blowing them out that cheap you'd be right up there with everything else at NHT!

Nothing like randomly discontinuing product at blow out prices to ensure dealer/consumer confidence and bolster the value of the brand.......

By adding another U1, you get twice the piston area and can equalize lower.

I'd suggest getting another pair of W2s and an A1 instead since he already has a U2. Both JPC and OE have this combo (four W2s) and seem to be very happy with it. ;)

Nothing like randomly discontinuing product at blow out prices to ensure dealer/consumer confidence and bolster the value of the brand.......

I must admit that I'm a little surprised that they are discontinuing the A1s. I could see it for the X1s since they are obviously only for the discontinued Evo subs, but I take it the X2 is not being discontinued? - and if not, it seems like they would keep A1s to go with them to bi-amp Fours (or other older passive tower models like 3.3s/2.9s, etc.) with. :(

I have dual U1s with the 20 hz mod along with an Outlaw LFM-1EX. The dual U1s with the 20 hz mod play plenty low and loud and are about the equal of the Outlaw in my room. With the standard low frequency cutoff the Outlaw obviously goes much lower. With a single U1 and the 20hz mod, the Outlaw outpoints the U1 by a lot: just not enough piston area provide the same output down low. If you can do the 20 hz mod and have dual U1s or 2s, then I wouldn't get the Outlaw. Of course, the NHT solution is much more expensive.

I wouldn't give a second thought to the extra 4hz. IMO, you'll be missing nothing giving them up.

That's the kind of answer I'm looking for. Thanks for the feedback. Apparently you'd choose dual U1 over 1 outlaw sub, but what about against dual outlaw? I also have dual U2 w/ 4 subs, but if 2 outlaw can compete in output, I guess NHT sounds better in music? I was gonna keep the U2s but I'd like to ask:

1. How come you still have the outlaw if you already have 2U1s?
2. U1 with 20hz mod > outlaw?
3. U1 w/o 20hz mod > outlaw?

1. How come you still have the outlaw if you already have 2U1s?
I tried to sell the U1s but given the price cuts have decided to keep them (since I probably couldn't get more than $800 for the whole shebang) and use them in a high end music setup.

2. U1 with 20hz mod > outlaw?
3. U1 w/o 20hz mod > outlaw?

I don't understand questions 2 and 3.

I tried to sell the U1s but given the price cuts have decided to keep them (since I probably couldn't get more than $800 for the whole shebang) and use them in a high end music setup.



I don't understand questions 2 and 3.


Oh what I'm trying to say is, so U1 with 20hz mod is a better sub than the outlaw?U1 without 20hz mod is worse?

Now it sounds like you rather keep the outlaw than the U1. I sure would like to know why.

How do I reach Matt at NHT regarding the mod? Should I call the nht customer service, the technical support, or the nht office? Thanks in advance.

Nothing like randomly discontinuing product at blow out prices to ensure dealer/consumer confidence and bolster the value of the brand.......


What happened to the dealers when the blowout pricing was announced? Did they get stuck with high priced obsolete inventory?

What is a fair price now for an A1 amplifier?

Oh what I'm trying to say is, so U1 with 20hz mod is a better sub than the outlaw?U1 without 20hz mod is worse?

Now it sounds like you rather keep the outlaw than the U1. I sure would like to know why.

How do I reach Matt at NHT regarding the mod? Should I call the nht customer service, the technical support, or the nht office? Thanks in advance.

U1 without mod will not play as low as the Outlaw. For movies, I think I would prefer the Outlaw to the 27hz U1. Dual U1s with the 20hz mod give you the best of both worlds: music and movies sound great, but a a much higher cost.

I must admit that I'm a little surprised that they are discontinuing the A1s. I could see it for the X1s since they are obviously only for the discontinued Evo subs, but I take it the X2 is not being discontinued? - and if not, it seems like they would keep A1s to go with them to bi-amp Fours (or other older passive tower models like 3.3s/2.9s, etc.) with. :(


The A1's are kind of on the expensive side. They are kind of a hard sell at MSRP!

How do I reach Matt at NHT regarding the mod? Should I call the nht customer service, the technical support, or the nht office? Thanks in advance.

I'd call the office and they can transfer you to him if he still works there.

U1 without mod will not play as low as the Outlaw. For movies, I think I would prefer the Outlaw to the 27hz U1. Dual U1s with the 20hz mod give you the best of both worlds: music and movies sound great, but a a much higher cost.


How does the Outlaw unit rate as far as SPL's are concerned? Do you need two Outlaws to equate to the SPL output of two U1's?

How does the Outlaw unit rate as far as SPL's are concerned? Do you need two Outlaws to equate to the SPL output of two U1's?

I've never really tried to max them out to see what the maximum output capability of each is, so I can't answer the question.

I must admit that I'm a little surprised that they are discontinuing the A1s. I could see it for the X1s since they are obviously only for the discontinued Evo subs, but I take it the X2 is not being discontinued? - and if not, it seems like they would keep A1s to go with them to bi-amp Fours (or other older passive tower models like 3.3s/2.9s, etc.) with. :(

I was thinking why doesn't the NHT site say anything about the Evo line being discountinued.
Allen

What is a fair price now for an A1 amplifier?

You should be able to get them brand new for no more than $250 (give or take a little either way) shipped. ;)

I was thinking why doesn't the NHT site say anything about the Evo line being discountinued.
Allen

Dunno Allen, maybe they are just giving it a little time so that dealers can sell their current Evo inventory?

I did notice they took down that "fall special" deal about a free W2 and A1 with the purchase of five M5s rather quickly though.

BTW Allen, did you ever get some new Evo subs?

The A1's are kind of on the expensive side. They are kind of a hard sell at MSRP!

True, especially after the 15% price increase just right before the blowout pricing. They were literally about twice the price of the virtually identical Outlaw monoblocks at that point. :o

Hi All,
From trying to do some research on the Classic Fours there seems to be much more reviews of the Classic Three...I wonder why?

Best Regards,
Ricky

ps my Fours will be in my possession on Friday!!! :) Im ordering the Vincent Audio SP-331 2x150w hybrid tube-amp for them as well...should be an interesting experiment.

How do I reach Matt at NHT regarding the mod? Should I call the nht customer service, the technical support, or the nht office? Thanks in advance.

I'll bet anything the 20 Hz X1 mod is simply putting the same 20 Hz HP filter that the X2 has in to replace the X1's stock one that is prolly 27 Hz.

Hi All,
From trying to do some research on the Classic Fours there seems to be much more reviews of the Classic Three...I wonder why?

Best Regards,
Ricky

ps my Fours will be in my possession on Friday!!! :) Im ordering the Vincent Audio SP-331 2x150w hybrid tube-amp for them as well...should be an interesting experiment.

$1000 price difference prolly. :p

Congrats and report back with how they do on tubes. I never did try them when I had a pair on tubes. :o

How do I reach Matt at NHT regarding the mod? Should I call the nht customer service, the technical support, or the nht office? Thanks in advance. If NHT does it, the warranty will remain intact (if it hasn't expired). All we're talking about is 4 resistors & 2 capacitors. I have the schematics; if you can't get help anywhere else let me know by pm please. ;)

How does the Outlaw unit rate as far as SPL's are concerned? Do you need two Outlaws to equate to the SPL output of two U1's?

Unless you have a REALLY large room, 4 12" drivers driven by 500 Watts will provide PLENTY of SPL. I chose the dual U2s because I prefer the sound of a sealed sub, esp. for music (my system is 50/50). In my 14' x25' room, I have the volume on the subs down to about 2 for movies, but the quality of the sound is great. True, since I spent close to list for my first U2s, this was considerably more expensive than a pair of Outlaws...

I ordered my T5s and an extra M5 (the M5s for $200 shipped on eBay is a smokin' deal). No room in the back for M5s (this is a secondary room with little speakers hanging from the ceiling for surrounds) but if the L5s come down, perhaps I can convince the wife. Thanks for the advice with this purchase, Mark, and thanks for another excellent deal, HiDefLifestyle (shameless plug, but I'm just a customer).

Sat in on a higher-end consult for a HT: perforated screen, dual subs, high-end electronics, projector. If anybody wants to know what's best to buy for about $25K, let me know (hint, if you want really black blacks, it's going to be another $15K).

Peter

I ordered my T5s and an extra M5 (the M5s for $200 shipped on eBay is a smokin' deal).

Congrats Peter. Now you need to pick up another A1 for stereo bass on those T5s since you listen to 50% music. I know Sneezy will now call me "the pusher" again, but maybe you could trade that spare, unopened X1 that you don't really need for another A1 instead. ;)

And yes, brand new M5s for $200 each shipped is absolutely unbeatable. :D

If NHT does it, the warranty will remain intact (if it hasn't expired). All we're talking about is 4 resistors & 2 capacitors. I have the schematics; if you can't get help anywhere else let me know by pm please. ;)

I can't remember who it was exactly, but someone told me in private that if push ever comes to shove and NHT quits doing the 20 Hz X1 mods (or, God forbid, disappears entirely) they can post high detail pics of both modded and unmodded X1s with their tops off so we can see exactly what the difference is. :cool:

Marine needs some help here...bare with me. I am in Okinawa, Japan. I don't have the option of auditioning speakers here so I will tell you what I have heard and what I'm looking for. The price on the Classic Fours is almost too good to pass up, I like the special dark. I tend to lean towards "bright" speakers, I have a set of MB Quarts in my Mustang back home and want to duplicate the sound in my home. I like the little details that they bring out in Zeppelin songs that I thought I was burnt out on years ago. I like to pick up on the squeek of the kick drum peddle, the slide of a finger tip down a string, the snap of a snare, and the way an open e string of a bass will vibrate your fillings out of your teeth. Will the Fours give me this? Can I still find a Three C, in the same color for a 5.1 system to match? I'm in an apartment now so I will be using a HK AVR to power them until I get home and need a high current amp for them to fill my 3000 cft room. Any advice?

D.

The Fours are very neutral. Probably not as bright as you're used to in the treble, but more detailed and focused in the midrange. I suspect there are 3Cs in SD floating around. I have a couple left myself, just waiting to see what shakes out here with NHT before putting them on Audiogon or something.

I can't remember who it was exactly, but someone told me in private that if push ever comes to shove and NHT quits doing the 20 Hz X1 mods (or, God forbid, disappears entirely) they can post high detail pics of both modded and unmodded X1s with their tops off so we can see exactly what the difference is. :cool:That would be me (by the way, I now have one unopened X1 and one OPENED but used only 20 hours X1 for sale, or preferably trade for A1 (willing to include $). But sc10000 has the schematic, which would help more (both together probably better, but $50 and maintaining warranty is best).

Marine needs some help here...bare with me. I am in Okinawa, Japan. I don't have the option of auditioning speakers here so I will tell you what I have heard and what I'm looking for. The price on the Classic Fours is almost too good to pass up, I like the special dark. I tend to lean towards "bright" speakers, I have a set of MB Quarts in my Mustang back home and want to duplicate the sound in my home. I like the little details that they bring out in Zeppelin songs that I thought I was burnt out on years ago. I like to pick up on the squeek of the kick drum peddle, the slide of a finger tip down a string, the snap of a snare, and the way an open e string of a bass will vibrate your fillings out of your teeth. Will the Fours give me this? Can I still find a Three C, in the same color for a 5.1 system to match? I'm in an apartment now so I will be using a HK AVR to power them until I get home and need a high current amp for them to fill my 3000 cft room. Any advice?
D.

I agree the 4s would be great - the best deal is now gone where jselvick on Audiogon would include a 3c for $100 ($999 for the 4s and the center channel). What's your room like? Japan is cramped, and the 4s (and 3s, for that matter) need to breathe with 10-16" behind them, and they're 16" deep. That's why I didn't take that deal just mentioned and bought the T5s, which have boundary control and can be placed against the wall (extending 17.25" total). Mark R has both 4s and M5s and can compare them for you.

And nobody here talks about room treatment. I'm having sound diffusing panels placed in my HT (Classic 3s and dual U2s) and will update the board in January. These are not dampeners so they don't dull the room, just remove some reflection. They have Masonite-like material over the absorbative material, with specifically-sized holes in the Masonite to match the commonly-reflected frequencies. I'm no expert (as anyone who IS an expert can already tell...).

Peter

No, just picking myself off the floor is all........ ;)

I was serial, why won't anybody take me serial?! ;)

What do you mean, that you expect to make a profit and eat? Noooo

Congrats Peter. Now you need to pick up another A1 for stereo bass on those T5s since you listen to 50% music. I know Sneezy will now call me "the pusher" again, but maybe you could trade that spare, unopened X1 that you don't really need for another A1 instead. ;)

And yes, brand new M5s for $200 each shipped is absolutely unbeatable. :D

Well, if the shoe fits. :) Do you really think a dealer would be willing to trade in a discontinued item for another, less useful discontinued item? I was thinking about sending my extra X1 to this mythical Matt character for the modification. Then I'll have one of each. For $50 + shipping, why not?

You should be able to get them brand new for no more than $250 (give or take a little either way) shipped. ;)

That would be a good deal indeed. I haven't seen it yet, so I must not be looking hard enough.

I can't remember who it was exactly, but someone told me in private that if push ever comes to shove and NHT quits doing the 20 Hz X1 mods (or, God forbid, disappears entirely) they can post high detail pics of both modded and unmodded X1s with their tops off so we can see exactly what the difference is. :cool:
Have both the orig & modded X1 schematics provided by NHT which detail exactly which parts to change & their values; total of 4 resistors & 2 capacitors. Have permission to use them, but will not post due intellectual property concerns. So if interested, pm.

Can you bi-amp the 4s with a nad M3 ,two A1's, and not use a x2? The nad M3 can do crossover, not up to speed with the technology.

^^^ Unless the gain on the M3 is exactly identical to the A1s, which I very seriously doubt they are - no. Besides, you don't even really need a crossover purely for bass management, either the M3's or the X2's. The Four already has it's own built in fixed high and low pass crossovers from the 6.5" mid bass to the passive 10" subs at 125 Hz.

What the X2 would give you however, is independent sub volume control (which you need if the gain of the amps you are bi-amping with don't match that I was talking about in the previous paragraph) with both master gain (for plain old 2 channel) and a separate LFE gain for if you integrate a HT surround system with them, boundary Eq, and a very comprehensive phase adjustment. These will all give you virtually complete and total control over your bass as opposed to simply moving the towers closer to or further away form the front wall behind them and/or the side walls, which you can still do anyway with the X2. ;)

Plus, the X2 would also allow you the option of using it's own high and low pass crossovers too to use in conjunction with the Four's own built in fixed crossovers if you want to get into double filtering, which Jack actually recommends:

Mark,

I think that the text you are referring to in the X2 manual assumes that a subwoofer satellite system is being biamped in that case, not a tower speaker. In the case of a tower speaker, you set the LP filter and the HP filter at the subwoofer to woofer crossover frequency as a starting point.

Take the example of biamping a Four with an X2.

Case #1.

Set the HP filter on the X2 to 50Hz, since this is the lowest setting available. Set the LP filter to about 220Hz, since this is the highest setting available. Leave the phase at 0 degrees.

At the listening position, the frequency response will be about the same as without the system being biamped. This is because the active filter cutoff frequencies are about 1 octave or more away from the passive filter cutoff frequencies in the Four. They really need to be more than 1 octave away to not affect the phase response at the crossover frequency, but it will be fairly close.

There is no change in driver excursions since the filter slopes haven't changed much.

The lower amplifier is amplifying from 20-220Hz. The upper amplifier is amplifying from 50Hz-20kHz.

Case #2.

Set the HP filter on the X2 to 110Hz, since this is about the same frequency as the passive filter in the Four. Set the LP filter to about 130Hz, since this is about the same crossover frequency as the passive filter in the Four. You will need to adjust the phase to get the output from the subwoofer and woofer in phase at the listening position. This is because you have added one HP and one LP filter to the system. Both of these filters have some added phase shift.

The excursion of the 6.5" driver will now be less since there is a 24dB/octave HP slope on it instead of a 12dB/octve slope. There will be less midrange coming from the 12" woofer for the same basic reason. Double the filter slope.

The lower amplifier is now amplifying from 20-130Hz. The upper amplifier is amplifying from 110Hz-20kHz. Both amplifiers are amplifying less bandwidth, so they will both have more power available.

You will need to tweak the LP filter setting and the phase setting to get the two drivers integrated as well as possible.

There nothing wrong with "double filtering". If you have adequate adjustments on the filters (frequency AND phase) and the knowledge and experience to set them, you can easily end up with better system performance. Minimizing the amount of double filtering (as in case 1) is easier because it requires no subjective adjustments. Just turn the filters all the way up and down. i.e., remove them as much as possible. Case 2 will give you better performance if you know what you are doing.

I'll post some settings for the X2 and Fours later.

Unfortunately, he never did post the settings mentioned in that last sentence though. :(

Do you really think a dealer would be willing to trade in a discontinued item for another, less useful discontinued item?

No, but maybe an individual would, or, OE could just put it up on ebay, and the $$$ it brings in should pay for at least most of an A1 to replace it. :cool:

Of course, if he doesn't have or eventually get a pre-amp section of some sort that will allow this, then I'm afraid it's irrelevant anyway. :o

That would be a good deal indeed. I haven't seen it yet, so I must not be looking hard enough.

One call, an authorized dealer, did have them for $250 shipped, dunno if they still do though or not.

, but $50 and maintaining warranty is best).

If there will still be an entity left to honor it. :o

Mark R has both 4s and M5s and can compare them for you.

Did have a pair of Fours, but no longer. Traded them away, but just might pick up another pair in SD before it's over. ;)

As for the Fours vs the M5s, HTM ran the same set of measurements on both of them, and as accurate as the Fours are, the M5s are even more accurate. :eek: They are about as neutral as it can possibly get.

And nobody here talks about room treatment. I'm having sound diffusing panels placed in my HT (Classic 3s and dual U2s) and will update the board in January. These are not dampeners so they don't dull the room, just remove some reflection. They have Masonite-like material over the absorbative material, with specifically-sized holes in the Masonite to match the commonly-reflected frequencies. I'm no expert (as anyone who IS an expert can already tell...).

Peter

Good point, the room itself can be the single biggest factor in the final sound of a system, even more so than the speakers, but as you well know, the Evos do include some features to help with that. :p

I tend to lean towards "bright" speakers,

Then I am confident you will like the Fours. They are very detailed.

, just waiting to see what shakes out here with NHT before putting them on Audiogon or something.

That doesn't sound too good.:(

The Fours are very neutral. Probably not as bright as you're used to in the treble, but more detailed and focused in the midrange. I suspect there are 3Cs in SD floating around. I have a couple left myself, just waiting to see what shakes out here with NHT before putting them on Audiogon or something.

Hopefully you will offer anything here (to your friends rather than some strangers) first!

Peter

Well, here's the list of stuff going here - http://forum.adnm.com/viewtopic.php?p=844#844

So I take it the X2 is also being discontinued too?

Also, do you have any P5s/P6s, and L5s?

Hopefully you will offer anything here (to your friends rather than some strangers) first!

Peter

He just fell on the floor again. :D

Wait, there's a goodies list! :cool:

Honestly, greed aside, I hate seeing such great, fairly priced (in the first place) gear being disposed of like so much Walmart overstock. Makes me sad. Not sad enough to not buy it, though.

Honestly, greed aside, I hate seeing such great, fairly priced (in the first place) gear being disposed of like so much Walmart overstock. Makes me sad. Not sad enough to not buy it, though.

Obviously not sad enough to ask for even lower prices either. :p

I agree the 4s would be great - the best deal is now gone where jselvick on Audiogon would include a 3c for $100 ($999 for the 4s and the center channel). What's your room like? Japan is cramped, and the 4s (and 3s, for that matter) need to breathe with 10-16" behind them, and they're 16" deep. That's why I didn't take that deal just mentioned and bought the T5s, which have boundary control and can be placed against the wall (extending 17.25" total).

It would have been interesting if you had gotten a pair of Fours to get your take on them as compared to Threes with a U2.

So I take it the X2 is also being discontinued too?

Yes.

Also, do you have any P5s/P6s, and L5s?

No

I wonder if they are discontinuing the iWS or have even recognized that once the X1 is gone, there's no way of selling that piece.

I wonder if they are discontinuing the iWS or have even recognized that once the X1 is gone, there's no way of selling that piece.

Good question. It's starting to look more and more like there wasn't too much pre-planning that went into this, doesn't it? :o

Needless to say, I'm not exactly holding my breath to get room correction on the Xds and/or any more Controller updates anytime soon, but would like to be proven wrong about that.

I was told there would be a plan developed about 60 days after all the radical changes :rolleyes:

So here's the status as I know it -

Their most popular subs have endured two price increases (one when they redid the cabinets to match Classic), so they're basically $700 for a 10", $1000 for a 12" ported subs. So I'm replacing those with PSBs.

The SuperZero was $250/pr. The SB1 replacement was $300/pr. The AZ is now $460/pr. Those are getting replaced by PSB Alphas.

The SuperOne was $350/pr. The SB2 replacement was $400/pr. The Classic Two is $690/pr. Those are getting replaced by PS B1s.

The Classic Three/Four/3C can likely stand the increase, but it doesn't help anything as any additional income will be offset by lower sales. Possibly Revels. Not sure.

Evolution M5/M6 was a big seller amongst custom installers, now gone with no replacements coming. Triad?

The U1/U2 was *by far* our best selling subwoofers. We sold $100,000 worth of those. No replacement. I'm thinking maybe JL Audio or something. Not sure what can replace those.

Architectural is still quite good for the money. But the iWS will likely go if there are no X1/A1s to power them. And custom installers are so fickle that they'll likely not take the price increase happily.

Verve, as far as I know, was never a big seller, despite claims that it was. It's *nice*, but it's not an NHT product, has a (relatively) bad tweeter and not terribly deep bass for a now $2300 system. We managed to sell two sets. But in both cases, I could have sold L5s, just need to move the Verves I had ordered. The demos were stolen.

Xd is dead, sales wise. No promotion, no upgrades coming. People want that performance, they just don't want Xd. So analog speakers it is.

The M80Xd is hung up and not shipping yet as far as I know. Not that it matters much because the price is too high for a really terrible form factor.

The Controller/Power series has gone from unique, to having competition to being overpriced rather obviously overpriced ($3200 for a preamp? $3700 for 7 Class D amp channels?) over the last 6-12 months. The NAD T175 is now shipping. Plus who knows about support with Esa gone?

So, I don't know. I think NHT has been selling quite well because they blew out Special Dark, they blew out Evolution, now they're blowing out Verve for the holidays. I could have ordered Verve, but decided against it as I couldn't sell them before. If NHT isn't sold soon to someone with money, leadership and engineering, I'm not sure what's going to happen, except that I think there will be a fairly serious contraction in sales and dealers. I've been looking hard for a good company to buy them, but have had little interest thus far. Fortunately, the product is amazingly reliable so that's not a big issue. Just keep small fingers away from those dome arrays people!

Good question. It's starting to look more and more like there wasn't too much pre-planning that went into this, doesn't it? :o

Needless to say, I'm not exactly holding my breath to get room correction on the Xds and/or any more Controller updates anytime soon, but would like to be proven wrong about that.

PRE planning? What's that? :eek:

Thanks to all for the advice. My apartment here is fairly large. The living room is 16x26x9 marble floors, area rug, heavy curtains on two walls that are lined with sliding glass doors and a beautiful view of the ocean. When I get back home, my living room is 14x19 with 15ft vaulted ceiling, the speakers will go on the long wall as the layout is rather odd. I understand that I need to place the backs of the 4's about a foot off the wall.
How does the following sound:
HK AVR 247 to run the top half of the Four's, the C3 and the surrounds.
X2 and 2 A1's in order to bi-amp the 10's in the Four's and not use a dedicated sub
AZ's for surround, I don't have the room for a 7.1 so just a 5.1

70/30 music to movie ratio...broad, I mean really broad spectrum of music tastes...

It seems to make more economical sense to go with the Four's on sale over the Three's for the same price plus the expense of adding a sub to them. The wifey likes the looks of the Four's in SD, and from what I gathered here, they will sound close to what I am seeking.

Sorry to sound long winded...

D

Can x2 crossover be used on u1, u2, t5, and t6? Will it function the same way on those subs as the x1 does?

It can't. It doesn't. It doesn't have the EQ for the Evo speakers. It's a "generic" crossover.

Can x2 crossover be used on u1, u2, t5, and t6? Will it function the same way on those subs as the x1 does?

No, X1s are only for Evo subs, and Evo subs are only for X1s. X2s are for anything else non Evo. But otherwise, they are basically identical.

Thanks to all for the advice. My apartment here is fairly large. The living room is 16x26x9 marble floors, area rug, heavy curtains on two walls that are lined with sliding glass doors and a beautiful view of the ocean. When I get back home, my living room is 14x19 with 15ft vaulted ceiling, the speakers will go on the long wall as the layout is rather odd. I understand that I need to place the backs of the 4's about a foot off the wall.
How does the following sound:
HK AVR 247 to run the top half of the Four's, the C3 and the surrounds.
X2 and 2 A1's in order to bi-amp the 10's in the Four's and not use a dedicated sub
AZ's for surround, I don't have the room for a 7.1 so just a 5.1

70/30 music to movie ratio...broad, I mean really broad spectrum of music tastes...

It seems to make more economical sense to go with the Four's on sale over the Three's for the same price plus the expense of adding a sub to them. The wifey likes the looks of the Four's in SD, and from what I gathered here, they will sound close to what I am seeking.

Sorry to sound long winded...

D

Sounds like a plan to me based on your comments about your room and your musical tastes. I say go for it! ;)

FWIW, here's what Jack had to say about adding the X2/A1s to a pair of Fours:

If you want better bass, more output capability and more control over the bass in your room, get an X2 crossover with one or two A1 power amps and use this to biamp the Fours. This will give you very high output with an inexpensive receiver. It takes less floor space, will sound better than having a separate sub and gives you much more control over the bass in your room.

Yes.

No

I wonder if they are discontinuing the iWS or have even recognized that once the X1 is gone, there's no way of selling that piece.

I've been wondering the same thing. We literally just put one in our showroom last week.

I was told there would be a plan developed about 60 days after all the radical changes :rolleyes:

So, the "plan" is forthcoming? :eek:

So here's the status as I know it -

Their most popular subs have endured two price increases (one when they redid the cabinets to match Classic), so they're basically $700 for a 10", $1000 for a 12" ported subs. So I'm replacing those with PSBs.

Agreed, the Classic subs were about the absolute last things that needed to have a price increase. And what's even scarier, is that now they will now be the only non-Xdw consumer subs that NHT even has available.

No replacement. I'm thinking maybe JL Audio or something. Not sure what can replace those.

Those Revel Concerta B12 subs are quite good. Much better than the Ten/Twelve, and definitely comparable to Evo subs IMO.

Xd is dead, sales wise. No promotion, no upgrades coming.

That's what I've long been afraid of. :(:mad:

I think NHT has been selling quite well because they blew out Special Dark, they blew out Evolution,

As well evidenced by all of these new NHT owners.

except that I think there will be a fairly serious contraction in sales and dealers.

Which is the last thing they need. The dealer network was already too small as it was before all of this.

I've been looking hard for a good company to buy them, but have had little interest thus far.

At this point, I'd even be grateful for Klipsch to buy them. :o

With all this bad news John, is there any positive at all right now you can think of?

I've been wondering the same thing. We literally just put one in our showroom last week.


Dude! You need to change the color of your signature! (unless, that is, you are purposefully trying to hide it) :o

With all this bad news John, is there any positive at all right now you can think of?

Matt's not there any more (fired or quit, don't know), so maybe there will be better customer/dealer service? New AZ center is supposedly shipping, FWIW. Rumors of another piece that was pretty well in the can before they outsourced Jack, but not sure on that one. Keep in mind that there's no engineering staff at present for future product development. Jack's kind of freelancing it. Hopefully the good news would be that someone buys the company in the next few weeks/months.

Not only that, but hopefully whoever buys it will be able to retain Jack and his team. If Jack isn't there, then the only other option I can think of I would like to see play out would be the return of Bill.

But if the AZC is good news, then that just goes to underscore how it really is right now. :o

I wonder what the other peice is. Do you think it could be one of those one speaker surround bars like Yamaha, Polk, etc, have maybe, or somehting like that?

No, not a soundbar. Rumors of a tower version of the AZ. I doubt it will happen though. Well, it would be announced at CES if anything, but NHT isn't going to CES. So, I doubt it wil happen.

You mean with a built in passive sub too, like maybe with an 8" or 10" driver, like the ST-4 was to the SB-3 and the Four is to the Three?

I actually wouldn't mind seeing that, or a tower version of the Two if the price is right. That would be a true replacement for the ST-4. :cool:

BTW Allen, did you ever get some new Evo subs?

No I don't have the room in my rack for all that. I did thik about it. I have to say the pb-13 is what I am looking at, but I am more HT than music.
Allen

P.S. I do want one of your AC2 to go with a second system using my 2.9 I will be putting togather sometime next year. It's just going to be a 3.0 system. I plan on ising some trickel down stuff to drive them.

Yeah, but like I said, I wouldn't count on ever seeing it. Things changed radically after CEDIA. I mean *radically*. Vinci closed, people laid off. I've been a dealer for 15 years. Now, the "oldest" person at NHT has been there almost 2 years. Maybe only a year and a half. Well, we'd know if it is true. If it is, Jack will come in and rip me a new one for blabbing. If he doesn't, then it it won't ever happen.

Yeah, but like I said, I wouldn't count on ever seeing it. Things changed radically after CEDIA. I mean *radically*. Vinci closed, people laid off. I've been a dealer for 15 years. Now, the "oldest" person at NHT has been there almost 2 years. Maybe only a year and a half. Well, we'd know if it is true. If it is, Jack will come in and rip me a new one for blabbing. If he doesn't, then it it won't ever happen.

Let's hope that some investor sees value in keeping the company alive because it would really suck if NHT goes away.

Mark: Thanks for the input. Now to see what the best sale price I can get for the Four's and the C3.

John: Looks like I'll be in the market for one X2 and two A2's shortly. Do you ship to FPO's? Should be no different than shipping them anywhere in the states.
D

FPOs are cool.

Speaking of Jack, I guess he's not affiliated with NHT in any way as of now. Nor am I, other than still having some stock.

John: Can you make any other recommendations on the set-up I am looking to run? Will 2 A2's cover it? Will the X1 work with an NAD amp if I don't go with the A2's? I haven't purchased home audio equipment in over 12 years. The last being a set of Polk lsi 7's (I think that's what they are, trapizoid shaped) and a HK signature series amp. In high school (1987) I fell in love with a set of Klipsch KG-4's pushed by an NAD intigrated amp. The audio bug has biten again. I have a beautiful 50" Pioneer Plasam and no stereo to go with it.

This may show me to be pretty out of it, but is Chris Byrne involved any more?

Xd is dead, sales wise. No promotion, no upgrades coming. People want that performance, they just don't want Xd. So analog speakers it is.

Any chance of blowouts on Xds? I'd strongly consider taking on some debt if it was my last chance to pick them up. Unless someone has a better suggestion for a dream system I should be saving up for.

This is depressing. I know they're just one speaker company, but in terms of what I wanted, they fit the bill perfectly. If they're out, they will be missed.

And John, my condolences. I know the dealers are the ones who got jerked around and screwed the most here. Short term, a lot of the customers benefited, but of course this isn't our livelihood, and there's no long-term benefit in it for us, either.

I'm 99% sure that the X1, X2 and A1 aren't going to be discontinued.

Jack Hidley

I'm 99% sure that the X1, X2 and A1 aren't going to be discontinued.

Jack Hidley

Thanks for stopping by. Are you still affiliated with NHT?

Obviously not sad enough to ask for even lower prices either. :p

I was hardly serious. In fact, the $250 price Ashman is offering them for kind of surprised me. I really thought it was much ado about nothing, too good a product at a reasonble price (the Evo line). I guess I just wasn't paying attention. :o

So, do I go spending spree to finish out my system before the components disappear? Don't see much choice unless I want to play the used market game later.

I wonder how warranty etc would be handled for Xd moving forward. I was thinking of getting another XdW for my system but I am wondering now if that would be a good move. There is no sale on these from what I saw above.... :(

This may show me to be pretty out of it, but is Chris Byrne involved any more?

No. I don't think there's anyone with more than 2 years there.

John: Can you make any other recommendations on the set-up I am looking to run? Will 2 A2's cover it? Will the X1 work with an NAD amp if I don't go with the A2's? I haven't purchased home audio equipment in over 12 years. The last being a set of Polk lsi 7's (I think that's what they are, trapizoid shaped) and a HK signature series amp. In high school (1987) I fell in love with a set of Klipsch KG-4's pushed by an NAD intigrated amp. The audio bug has biten again. I have a beautiful 50" Pioneer Plasam and no stereo to go with it.

2 A1s for Evo subs for for biamping Fours? X1 will work with any amp, but only Evo subs. X2 for anything else.

I wonder how warranty etc would be handled for Xd moving forward. I was thinking of getting another XdW for my system but I am wondering now if that would be a good move. There is no sale on these from what I saw above.... :(

I feel a sale in the air coming, but I won't be there for it. I was their biggest Xd dealer. I think I sold over 30 sets. If everyone else had done that, it would have been a huge success. I'd grab a sub, but there's no hurry. No matter what happens, you can expect to get one on sale soon enough.

I'm 99% sure that the X1, X2 and A1 aren't going to be discontinued.

Jack Hidley

Glad to see you arround.
Just hoping you could post those X2 settings for the C4's you mentioned several pages back?
I am trying to decide if I want to bi-amp via A1's and X2's or via a multichannel amp??

A2s for biamping the Fours. So I need the X2 for the A2? Sorry for the confusion.

Sorry, typo - I meant 2 A1s. The A2 amp never existed outside of a prototype. So 2 A1s and an X2.

Note: I have not read all 6000 posts. But, this seems to be the best place to ask.

I have a set of VT-1.4's. I am finally ready to add a center and rears, but am limited by budget to what I can find on ebay.

Since the VS-1.4 doesn't come up very often, what would you guys recommend as a close match to the VT-1.4's?

Thanks for your advice.

A SuperCenter would work.

Let's hope that some investor sees value in keeping the company alive because it would really suck if NHT goes away.

I wish I had the $$$ to buy them, but sadly, I don't. :(:o

Of course, I'm sure there are prolly several of us thinking that right now.

Speaking of Jack, I guess he's not affiliated with NHT in any way as of now.

If that's true, then you can pretty much stick a fork in them now- they're done. :(

I was hardly serious.

Neither was I. :D

So, do I go spending spree to finish out my system before the components disappear? Don't see much choice unless I want to play the used market game later.

Well, who knows, you might not be able to buy it used later, at least in the immediate (not long, long term) future for the prices you can get it new for now.

I feel a sale in the air coming, but I won't be there for it. I was their biggest Xd dealer. I think I sold over 30 sets. If everyone else had done that, it would have been a huge success. I'd grab a sub, but there's no hurry. No matter what happens, you can expect to get one on sale soon enough.

Plus one, on both counts. (so does that make it a plus two?)

It might not be a bad idea to go ahead and download the dual sub filters from off the site right now though, just in case they aren't there later.

Note: I have not read all 6000 posts. But, this seems to be the best place to ask.

I have a set of VT-1.4's. I am finally ready to add a center and rears, but am limited by budget to what I can find on ebay.

Since the VS-1.4 doesn't come up very often, what would you guys recommend as a close match to the VT-1.4's?

Thanks for your advice.

Let me check this weekend, I believe I have a spare VS-1.4 laying around. I'm pretty sure do.

BTW, the VT-1.4s are incredible little speakers. I like 'em a lot. ;)

I've often wondered how a surround system with a pair of them for mains and surrounds would sound. In addition to full range, ("large") surrounds, you could run them in bipole mode too.

X1 will work with any amp, but only Evo subs.

I wonder if Evo subs with 20 Hz modded X1s could use even more power than the A1s, something like maybe those old very conservatively rated Adcom 300 watt (at 8 Ohm) monoblocks? :eek:

I have nothing to do with NHT now. Chris has been gone for about 4 months.

I have nothing to do with NHT now. Chris has been gone for about 4 months.


:(

Let me check this weekend, I believe I have a spare VS-1.4 laying around. I'm pretty sure do.

BTW, the VT-1.4s are incredible little speakers. I like 'em a lot. ;)

I've often wondered how a surround system with a pair of them for mains and surrounds would sound. In addition to full range, ("large") surrounds, you could run them in bipole mode too.

Oh, I love mine. I just didn't have the money to buy the surrounds before.

Now that you mention it, I saw some VT-1.4's in craigslist pretty cheap. I'll have to see if my room could hold them, but that might be a great idea.

I'm kind of sad I found this forum. Now I find myself wanting an Onkyo 805 (upgrade from my Onkyo SV525), and several amps to really push the NHT's the way they need it.

Jack, hope you find a new home that fits. Keep us posted, would like to stay with someone who knows what he's doing. We might all be looking for a new speaker company after this.

bye jack

I wish I had the $$$ to buy them, but sadly, I don't. :(:o

Of course, I'm sure there are prolly several of us thinking that right now.


Sounds to me like the only thing left to buy are the engineering schematics.

In light of the current situation at NHT, I have no reason to withold these any longer. Very simple mod; get help if you're not skilled at soldering. :)

It just dawned on me that this could be my fault.

I fell in love with ARs. I bought a gazillion dollars worth of 93s and 94s along with all of the necessary amps, Pro Logic processor etc. AR goes belly up around the same time I am "discovering" them. I mourned the loss of the Kloss.

Listened to ARs in quad Pro Logic happiness until the foam rots and the tweeters start to sound like BBs in a soup can. Decide to update.

Listened, test bought, listened, tried, poked, prodded, found NHT. Brilliant! Spend a gazillion dollars on M5s and L5s along with all of the necessary amps, Dolby Digital processor etc. NHT goes belly up within a year. Back to mourning.

I'm pretty sure it is my fault. Maybe I'll get interested in B&W next, see if I can bring down a behemoth. :)

I'm pretty sure it is my fault. Maybe I'll get interested in B&W next, see if I can bring dow a behemoth. :) Could you get interested in Bose? :p

I mourned the loss of the Kloss.

You just made a rhyme, and you do it all the time.
It's just what you find, somewhere in your mind.
You're a poet, and didn't even know it. :p

Could you get interested in Bose? :p

*laugh*

I guess if I am going to topple another going concern with my patronage, they would be the best choice.

The pain, though. Wow...

You just made a rhyme, and you do it all the time.
It's just what you find, somewhere in your mind.
You're a poet, and didn't even know it. :p


Ain't I just the pithiest? :)

In light of the current situation at NHT, I have no reason to withold these any longer. Very simple mod; get help if you're not skilled at soldering. :)

Sure thanks for the diagrams.

If Matt's not around at nht, then I guess I just need to mod it myself. So what needs soldering? the Capacitors, the resistors?

I have nothing to do with NHT now. Chris has been gone for about 4 months.

:(:(

It saddens me to see what has happened to my favorite speaker company. It wasn't long ago that I scraped up enough cash to buy 3 used SuperZeroes as a poor college student. At least there are worthy alternatives, right? Revel?

Plus one, on both counts. (so does that make it a plus two?)

It might not be a bad idea to go ahead and download the dual sub filters from off the site right now though, just in case they aren't there later.

Mark, good idea on the filters, I have went ahead and downloaded them just in case. :D

Curtis

I only come here occasionally. I come back now and see that they're at death's door. What caused this. :confused:

Listened, test bought, listened, tried, poked, prodded, found NHT. Brilliant! Spend a gazillion dollars on M5s and L5s along with all of the necessary amps, Dolby Digital processor etc. NHT goes belly up within a year. Back to mourning.




Yes, but speakers last a long time. Enjoy what you have. I still have my old large Advent speakers, but I only bring them out for a listen every few years to test my memory of what they sounded like in the good old days.

In light of the current situation at NHT, I have no reason to withold these any longer. Very simple mod; get help if you're not skilled at soldering. :)



Thank you. If you have True RTA and a bit of knowledge, you can modify that X-1's EQ to suit your own purposes.

I saved that pdf to my PC, as well as a few NHT instruction manual pdfs from the NHT site.

I have nothing to do with NHT now. Chris has been gone for about 4 months.

This just gets worse and worse.

Jack, hope you find a new home that fits. Keep us posted, would like to stay with someone who knows what he's doing. We might all be looking for a new speaker company after this.

My sentiment exactly.

I wish I had the $$$ to buy them, but sadly, I don't. :(:o

Of course, I'm sure there are prolly several of us thinking that right now.


Not me. I prefer to spend my money on this hobby, and not to give it away by owning a money losing business.

Did you ever wonder why the Harman sale did not go through? Seems like the trouble in the home selling sector of the economy may be spilling over to this sector.

Yes, but speakers last a long time. Enjoy what you have. I still have my old large Advent speakers, but I only bring them out for a listen every few years to test my memory of what they sounded like in the good old days.

Of course. I got twenty years out of that Acoustic Research gear. Granted, it was declining severely for probably the last five. I could have had them rebuilt, could have kept them going another twenty I suppose.

Who knows, somebody may revive the entity. AR didn't actually fold until what, 2002? Kloss left them in the early 60's I think when he founded KLH. One never knows. Even if NHT as a going concern completely dies, the designs are in the engineers heads and there is no telling where they may resurface.

It's surprising to see that we have the longest or second longest thread at avsforum and the company itself is going down.

Talking about AR, JR is selling AR tower speaker ARXP410PR for 99 each. 100 shipping each though :(

I sure hope NHT somehow stays afloat, or just like AR, the resale value of NHT speakers might soon become worthless.

It's surprising to see that we have the longest or second longest thread at avsforum and the company itself is going down.

As much a community unto itself as an owners thread. Something special about acoustic suspension design peoples. We need more POWER! :)

Talking about AR, JR is selling AR tower speaker ARXP410PR for 99 each. 100 shipping each though :(

Different company. Somebody bought the name after liquidation (I don' remember who) and turned them into a "value" brand. :rolleyes:

I sure hope NHT somehow stays afloat, or just like AR, the resale value of NHT speakers might soon become worthless.

You might be surprised what those old, true AR designs bring. I sold a set of 93s that needed a LOT of work for $250. I think I paid $550 for them 20 years ago. Don't hold me too that, long time past. The 90s I owned sold for $500 5 years ago, but they were in GREAT shape. Kick ass loudspeakers there, brother. Absolutely LOVED to play Judas Priest.

breakin' the law breakin' the law.... :cool:

Wow, just noticed that I managed to sneak in and get post #6K. Bully for me!

I wouldn't worry about drawings, schematics, filter sets, etc. Even if the company does fold, there are plenty of ex employees that have prepared for this.

You might be surprised what those old, true AR designs bring. I sold a set of 93s that needed a LOT of work for $250. I think I paid $550 for them 20 years ago. Don't hold me too that, long time past. The 90s I owned sold for $500 5 years ago, but they were in GREAT shape. Kick ass loudspeakers there, brother. Absolutely LOVED to play Judas Priest.

breakin' the law breakin' the law.... :cool:

Wow, just noticed that I managed to sneak in and get post #6K. Bully for me!

Wasn't there an AR model from like the early 70s that was basically like the original 3.3? I'll bet John will know the model #, AR9 maybe, or something like that?

Twas the AR MGC-1 designed by KK in the 80s. The 9 was designed by Tim Holl in 1978.

Not me. I prefer to spend my money on this hobby, and not to give it away by owning a money losing business.

The Whole point is to turn them into a profitable business with sustained growth. The current model as it previously existed obviously was a failure. It's time to shake it up dramatically, like ID maybe.

The recent SD Classic and Evo close out prices would be close to ID prices (ID pricing would prolly be a little higher, but the close out prices are prolly at least comparable), and all these new NHT owners coming out of the wood work just goes to show that price does matter, and a taste of what ID pricing would do for sales. This thread was always 600 - 700 posts behind the Paradigm thread, and just take a look now at how it has went roaring past it in a real short time.

The design team led by Jack is clearly top notch, without a doubt one of the very best in the business bar none, but just as obviously, the marketing dept. is just as inept as the engineering dept was strong. Fact is, this thread did more for them than anything they ever did on their own.

Twas the AR MGC-1 designed by KK in the 80s. The 9 was designed by Tim Holl in 1978.

Thanks.

I thought and thought about it today. I've been with Infinity and then NHT. I've loved the NHT's since I was a college student and always felt I had a home. Unfortunately it feels like I'm being kicked out prematurely. Everytime someone asked what speakers I owned I'd proudly say NHT even though B&W were the rage. I guess I really don't know what to think now. I hope NHT stays afloat and gives me the next set of speakers I own.

P.S. Anyone know where I can pick up some ST4's? I should have bought them when I had a chance.

The MGC-1 was very different than the M3.3. The MGC-1 had a two 8" woofers on the front bottom with dual 4" above that and a 1.5"/0.75" dual dome plate above that. The dual dome and 4" drivers were mounted in a large foam horn to control dispersion. The speaker also had a 6.5" two way mounted at a 30 degree angle to the front drivers. The 6.5" was also mounted in a large foam horn. There was a standalone amplifier with an analog delay line that sent the main signals to the side firing 6.5" two ways. The speaker allowed you to control the ratio of direct to reflected sound, while maintaining the correct tonal balance. It's what Amar Bose tried to do with the 901, but it actually works.

The AR9 was more like the M3.3, in my opinon. It had two 12" woofers, one mounted on each side. I think there was an 8" on the front with the dual dome above that. It was a very high dynamic range 4-way system.

Everytime someone asked what speakers I owned I'd proudly say NHT even though B&W were the rage. Many of my friends are B&W people, yet are very impressed with the NHT sound; when they hear the price my only response is - you don't know Jack...;)

P.S. Anyone know where I can pick up some ST4's? I should have bought them when I had a chance.

PM me your e-mail address so I can send you some pics of mine. After hearing the Twos crossed over to a U2, I've decided to sell my ST-4s and SB-3s. I don't have a SA CC of any kind to go with them, but I do have a set of the Last Stands for the SB-3s. ;)

I only come here occasionally. I come back now and see that they're at death's door. What caused this. :confused:

Don't get me wrong, I don't know how bad NHT's condition is or how long they could survive without being bought. Jack would know better than me. But Vinci Labs apparently failed or went bankrupt, which certainly doesn't help NHT. And since everyone with any knowledge of how to run NHT or develop product is gone, well, I suppose they could go on for a few years with no new product, but I can tell you that a major contraction in sales is coming. By January, there won't be much left to discount and much of the existing product will become devalued or unattractively priced. I could do a list of "I told you so's" but I really am not feeling good about all this and certainly never wanted to be arguably right about my recommendations to NHT over the last 5 or 6 years. I would also say that, at the discount prices, NHTs go from an excellent value to an unparalleled one. IMO, of course. The bad thing here is that this is the first time NHT has been without Ken, Bill or Jack and engineering has always been the one thing NHT always did well.

The MGC-1 was very different than the M3.3. The MGC-1 had a two 8" woofers on the front bottom with dual 4" above that and a 1.5"/0.75" dual dome plate above that. The dual dome and 4" drivers were mounted in a large foam horn to control dispersion. The speaker also had a 6.5" two way mounted at a 30 degree angle to the front drivers. The 6.5" was also mounted in a large foam horn. There was a standalone amplifier with an analog delay line that sent the main signals to the side firing 6.5" two ways. The speaker allowed you to control the ratio of direct to reflected sound, while maintaining the correct tonal balance. It's what Amar Bose tried to do with the 901, but it actually works.

The AR9 was more like the M3.3, in my opinon. It had two 12" woofers, one mounted on each side. I think there was an 8" on the front with the dual dome above that. It was a very high dynamic range 4-way system.

Stick around, Jack. This kind of knowledge is pretty impressive!!

Peter

Wasn't there an AR model from like the early 70s that was basically like the original 3.3? I'll bet John will know the model #, AR9 maybe, or something like that?

The AR9 wasn't, I don't think, designed by Ken, but it sure seemed to be the inspiration for later NHT designs, such as the 3.3 and T6.

P.S. Anyone know where I can pick up some ST4's? I should have bought them when I had a chance.

I have some mint ST4s used for $500.........

The AR9 wasn't, I don't think, designed by Ken, but it sure seemed to be the inspiration for later NHT designs, such as the 3.3 and T6.

Well other than concept, Ken didn't really have all that much to do with the actual design of the 3.3s either did he?

Not if you hear Bill tell the story ;)

The MGC-1 was very different than the M3.3. The MGC-1 had a two 8" woofers on the front bottom with dual 4" above that and a 1.5"/0.75" dual dome plate above that. The dual dome and 4" drivers were mounted in a large foam horn to control dispersion. The speaker also had a 6.5" two way mounted at a 30 degree angle to the front drivers. The 6.5" was also mounted in a large foam horn. There was a standalone amplifier with an analog delay line that sent the main signals to the side firing 6.5" two ways. The speaker allowed you to control the ratio of direct to reflected sound, while maintaining the correct tonal balance. It's what Amar Bose tried to do with the 901, but it actually works.

The AR9 was more like the M3.3, in my opinon. It had two 12" woofers, one mounted on each side. I think there was an 8" on the front with the dual dome above that. It was a very high dynamic range 4-way system.

Quite right. I think I was thinking about the speaker that KK designed, which was, I believe, the MGC-1.

Looking at the AR9, it would have been interesting if NHT would have came out with a tower with the dual, opposing side firing subs built in like that and also like the W1s and Xdws are.

I'll bet the bass on the AR9 was phenomenal, and especially all the more so for it's day.

Imagine a Four tower, but with the XdW woofer section.......

Hi All,
Just received my Classic Fours (in the dark finish) and am VERY pleased! They completely outclass my 2.5is especially in the bass area. The Fours still need some break-in time but from my initial listening everything that ive read about them (here and elsewhere) is true. The low end is not near as sloppy as the 2.5i, middle bass is very fast and crisp, highs are not near as bright but still demonstrate a lot of details. Imaging is spot-on while the sounstage is a bit wider. But most importantly the WAF is HUGE! My wife really didnt want me to replace the 2.5is because she loved the sound and especially their apperance but as soon as she laid eyes on the Fours it was a done deal AND she felt the Fours sounded "...much nicer...".

Associated gear:
Audio Refinement Pre-5
Rotel RB-1080 (looking to replace with Vincent SSP-31 or PS Audio Trio A-100)
Lite Audio DAC-AH-M1
Genesis Digital Lens (will be selling since my Sonos shows little jitter)
Sony DVP-9000es sacd player
Monster HTS3500 power protection
Sonos

Transparent and Blue Jeans cabling.

As a final note: I really hope things work out for NHT i'd really hate to see the company fade out.

Best Regards,
Ricky