Mark,

As it turns out, the optimal settings for the X2 biamping the Fours did end up being with the HP at min and the LP at max.

Thanks Jack! There you all have it once and for all. :cool:

But the X2 will still give you independent gain controls for for both master L/R main and sub/LFE (as well as the 0/10 db setting on the back), and comprehensive phase and boundary eq controls.

You can now get X2s for as little as $200 plus shipping and A1s for $250 each plus shipping.

If you already have an amp or amps for the subs, just pick up an X2. You simply can not make a bigger improvement to your system or room for $200 than that. :D

Other questions I've got through PMs were about the amps. Since the upper frequency drivers will only be powering above 125 Hz, not all that much brute power is required. A sweet little 50 watt integrated will be plenty.;) And as for the subs, since their amps will only be powering bass below 125 Hz, I really wouldn't worry too much about how "refined" the amps are or not. A1s or good high power/current amps will do fine. :)

Any new NHT updates?

Well John did say that there was a new tower version of the AZ/Two, very similar to the ST-4, but that he didn't know of it would ever actually see the light of day or not.

I'm sure others will jump in, but FWIW I'm running M5's & prefer them over Classics...although Classics have the bigger soundstage, I think the M5s are a bit warmer with better dynamics.... your amp should mate well & like you said, you will not lose if you decide to turn them later...

My sentiments exactly. ;)

How do you find the performance of the M5 as a center channel?

Excellent. Just check out Tom Nousaine's horizontal measurements and comments about it on the bottom page here:

http://www.nhthifi.com/press/reviews/pdf/evolution_sound.pdf

Oh wait ... that's right ... nevermind ... I forgot that Nousaine doesn't know how to measure. :D:p

Seriously though, the M5 does exceptionally well as a horizontal CC IMO.

I would keep the bass drivers in stereo.

Agreed, as the 125 Hz crossover on them is too high not to IMO.

Just about every NHT speaker has had the spotlight shown on it at one time or another over the course of this thread, from Xds, VT-3s, etc., even the M-80 Xds/S80s.

All but one that is, the VT-2.4. Let's have a little discussion on them. I know Deep Purple man has them, any others?

hi,
has anyone used the anthem pva-5 amp to power their nht home theater systems. i am currently using a rotel rsx-1055 and rotel rb991 to power the front nht 2.5i's
art

Just about every NHT speaker has had the spotlight shown on it at one time or another over the course of this thread, from Xds, VT-3s, etc., even the M-80 Xds/S80s.

All but one that is, the VT-2.4. Let's have a little discussion on them. I know Deep Purple man has them, any others?
I can't be the only one. I have a feeling that they're the forgotten NHT tower speaker. They came in between the 3.3 and 2.9 series and the Evolution series. It's big brother the VT-3 seems to have gotten all the attention when this series came out. The VT-2.4 and VT-1.4 speakers are often overlooked. I really like my speakers and plan on keeping them a while. I replaced my NAD amps with a Musical Fidelity A300cr power amp recently. Very nice sounding.

My partner has a set. I have Fours and L5s. Funny thing about VT2.4s. They either had killer bass in the room or not. There were also a big room kind of sound, they didn't work as well in smaller rooms. I always thought the VT1.4 was the true unknown speaker. It had a big, powerful sound, but was so waify that you had to close your eyes to get it.

I always thought the VT1.4 was the true unknown speaker. It had a big, powerful sound, but was so waify that you had to close your eyes to get it.

That's true. Not to try to sidetrack VT-2.4 discussion, but the VT-1.4s really have to be heard to be believed. You just never would think that they could sound so "large" when you first see them before hearing them. :eek:

Plus, with their extremely narrow front baffle, they naturally image very well too. :cool:

Jack once told me in private that the VT-1.4 and it's predecessor, the VT-1.2 I think it was, were among his very favorite NHT speakers they ever made.

Any more thoughts from others who have heard VT-2.4s? How 'bout you Jack, what did you think of them compared to say 2.9s and T5s?

Holy smokes! I just stumbled onto this thread, and read about NHT going out of business. As a longtime NHT owner (3.3, S1, U2, and lots of recommendations to friends), that makes me really sad.

Does this also mean all those companies that depend on Vinci Labs for their surround processor platforms are in trouble?

--Andre

Holy smokes! I just stumbled onto this thread, and read about NHT going out of business. As a longtime NHT owner (3.3, S1, U2, and lots of recommendations to friends), that makes me really sad.

Well, I wouldn't count them out yet (except for Vinci Labs, they're toast). The current CEO seems to be all over the map for reasons I can't comprehend (Peter Principle in action) and the rumors were that he was told to close it or sell it or something like that. I've been trying hard to find a buyer and have heard rumors of other potential buyers, maybe even sooner than we think. I would say that, without a buyer, NHT is doomed as the Vinci team had no idea what they were doing and they fired the only people that did. Know anyone with $3M or so?

Does this also mean all those companies that depend on Vinci Labs for their surround processor platforms are in trouble?

Pretty much! Except that Esa has been working with a few of these companies to do work for them and get product finished.

My partner has a set. I have Fours and L5s. Funny thing about VT2.4s. They either had killer bass in the room or not. There were also a big room kind of sound, they didn't work as well in smaller rooms. I always thought the VT1.4 was the true unknown speaker. It had a big, powerful sound, but was so waify that you had to close your eyes to get it.I must say the one thing I like about my VT-2.4s is the bass response I get in my room. Very full yet not too boomy. The one downside is that they can be very sensitive to bright recordings when I use them for two channel music. They're very detailed speakers especially on the mid range and treble. They're the kind of speaker that needs good equipment both for amps and sources.

I would say that, without a buyer, NHT is doomed as the Vinci team had no idea what they were doing and they fired the only people that did. Know anyone with $3M or so?


Yes, but they like their money to grow in more rational markets than high-end audio. ;)

For Vinci disappearing, I wonder if companies like Anthem, Halcro, Classe are screwed.

--Andre

Yes, but they like their money to grow in more rational markets than high-end audio. ;)

High-end audio can be very rational for those that understand the irrational :) You know people with money, I know how to turn NHT around. I got my 20 point plan in my back pocket.

For Vinci disappearing, I wonder if companies like Anthem, Halcro, Classe are screwed.

A little, though I know Esa, formerly of Vinci, is on the case.

I didn't work on the VT-2.4 at all. I worked a lot on the predecessor, the VT-2, then left NHT along with a bunch of other people to start NHTPro. When I came back, the VT-2.4 was just ending its product life. I have very little experience with the VT-2.4. The VT-2 was capable of very good bass response. Both of them had good 10" woofers in large vented enclosures tuned to a low frequency.

The single biggest issue with any speaker that places its woofer at the floor and/or near the back wall is this. Anytime a driver is placed near a room boundary, it is going to excite the standing waves in the room, perpendicular to that surface as strongly as possible. When you design the system, you do so in a real room which has a particular standing wave behavior. Some of the woofer output is going to rely on the increased output at certain frequencies from standing waves. When a user puts that speaker in their room, which has a different standing wave pattern, they may have more bass output at some frequencies and less at others. This can make the speakers bass balance very much a function of the room and speaker placement. This is why some people love the bass output of the VT-2.4 and others say it can sound too thin. This is one of the main reasons that I think biamping speakers, like the Four is so beneficial. It gives you a lot of control over the bass frequency response and balance.

I think the VT-1.2/VT-1.4 were fantastic products, because they had a great balance of small size, small LOOKS, good bass output, great imaging and reasonable price. Unfortunately that is not what sells.

Something just happened at NHT. I think it was just officially sold, but not entirely sure. Stay tuned............

I think the VT-1.2/VT-1.4 were fantastic products, because they had a great balance of small size, small LOOKS, good bass output, great imaging and reasonable price. Unfortunately that is not what sells.

I'm not understanding the above statement. This is very much what sells (if nothing else is standing in the way). Now, there can be a disconnect if someone feels that big size is required for big sound, but that is the very recipe for what sells, apart from inwall/onwall speakers. The trick is to put the speaker into a package that a woman wants and that has been NHT's biggest issue in the past. The original VT1 was ahead of its time, with it's stick-like style. Now that style is "in" because of thin TVs (think a tower version of the L5). VT2s sold like crazy because they matched big screen TVs. If someone had a big screen, we sold them VT2s. The problem is that NHT kind of stopped adapting or tried to solve problems that didn't exist. The A/V switch on the VT series just wasn't used. Nice gimmick, but few used it. And NHT refused to do wood finish and women *demand* the wood. I've lost dozens and dozens of big sales over this. That I know about. The problem with standing on principle and not doing a small wood clad speaker is that people will go buy a *big* wood speaker from someone else, just to have furniture. Small powerful subs sell. Big powerful subs don't (unless it's a dedicated theater or all male household).

So, IMO, none of those benefits are in the position of "not what sells". It's just that there are other things that are important that NHT has often ignored.

Mark,
I haven't been able to find an X2 for $200...where are you finding them?

I am surprised that a company like NHT could be bought for $3M+-.
The buyer would probably have to take the debt on at that price.

If I didn't have so much of my net worth in real estate and was a little more liquid, I would seriously consider going in with 3-4 people and be a silent partner, then let somebody who knows what they are doing run the company.
I'd be curious to see who buys/bought it.

Yeah, but you could easily double or triple NHT's sales (and by easy, I mean being smart and working hard). Most people are surprised that it's selling for so little, but then, compared to putting money in land or some software company, the return means hard work, not just sitting around drinking wine.

Just about every NHT speaker has had the spotlight shown on it at one time or another over the course of this thread, from Xds, VT-3s, etc., even the M-80 Xds/S80s.

All but one that is, the VT-2.4. Let's have a little discussion on them. I know Deep Purple man has them, any others?

I have a 7.3 surround system based on the 2.4 series:
2) VT-2.4
5) VS-2.4
And love the sound of these speakers.
here are pics of my theather: www.socalht.com/ray

Later
RayJr

Music wise, do you guys pick Classic 2/3 over M5/6? I think M5/6 is slightly warmer and accurate, am I wrong?

John,

I think the big kills on land and .coms may be history, at least until 2009.
I'm just glad my mom was undiversified and heavy in Exxon:) and Coke:).
Not quite sure what the next big boom will come from, some say water.
I wouldn't mind owning a audio company for a few years just to say I did it.
Even if I did lose a few $100K.(hopefully that is all it would be.LOL)

Eh, with product as good as NHT, the easy fix is do great marketing and patch up as many dealer relationships as possible. After that, there's "hard" work to do, but NHT sells ~$5M-$8M/year and they should and could be doing *at least* $25M/year. At least. Boston Acoustics sells $75M/year. B&W is $100M-$150M. Polk? Probably $200M. Bose? $1B+. So, taking a little bigger piece of a $2B-$2B pie with product as good as NHT is simply doing good business, not doing anything radical.

John,

I think the big kills on land and .coms may be history, at least until 2009.
I'm just glad my mom was undiversified and heavy in Exxon:) and Coke:).
Not quite sure what the next big boom will come from, some say water.
I wouldn't mind owning a audio company for a few years just to say I did it.
Even if I did lose a few $100K.(hopefully that is all it would be.LOL)

The next big boom will come from bio tech and solar energy. Solar is already here. I made some change from solar stocks this year. Some have returned as much as 400% for me.

Then I think I've already missed the boat. Did hear some talk about a Chinese company called SolarFun that's doing well.
One of the good things(for my retirement) about being cash poor, is I can't indulge my audio fantasies.
Missed out on the SD Fours because we've bought a house in the mountains.
Told my wife I would take the brand new inexpensive Mirages to the new house and the Fours would stay here. That did not go over very well. I haven't even bought a BluRay player yet, and they're what, less than $300 now?

I have a 7.3 surround system based on the 2.4 series:
2) VT-2.4
5) VS-2.4
And love the sound of these speakers.
here are pics of my theather: www.socalht.com/ray

Later
RayJr

Beautiful set up Ray. Though I've never heard the 2.4's, I'm sure they are without a doubt, great speakers. Enjoy your home theater:).

Ben

Eh, with product as good as NHT, the easy fix is do great marketing and patch up as many dealer relationships as possible. After that, there's "hard" work to do, but NHT sells ~$5M-$8M/year and they should and could be doing *at least* $25M/year. At least. Boston Acoustics sells $75M/year. B&W is $100M-$150M. Polk? Probably $200M. Bose? $1B+. So, taking a little bigger piece of a $2B-$2B pie with product as good as NHT is simply doing good business, not doing anything radical.

John - Any idea what Paradigm sells in a year?

I think Mark Shifter of ********** alluded in a post I saw somewhere that they were in the $10M a year range.
Better than NHT.

Speaking of the E (extinction) word:

Let's says that the company disappears. Is there anything comparable in the audio business to the NHT story? A company offering some brilliant, revolutionary designs at very reasonable prices, getting some of the best press in company history (two offerings in Class A of 'Phile, lots of kudos for Classic and Evolution, as well as Super before that). Riding the crest of a great wave in a great 'ship' and then....Titanic city.

Has that happened before?
It's happened before. To NHT.

Any news on the reported purchase of the company?

Peter

The single biggest issue with any speaker that places its woofer at the floor and/or near the back wall is this. Anytime a driver is placed near a room boundary, it is going to excite the standing waves in the room, perpendicular to that surface as strongly as possible.

Would toe-in on the VT-2.4s be beneficial or not recommended?

When you design the system, you do so in a real room which has a particular standing wave behavior. Some of the woofer output is going to rely on the increased output at certain frequencies from standing waves. When a user puts that speaker in their room, which has a different standing wave pattern, they may have more bass output at some frequencies and less at others. This can make the speakers bass balance very much a function of the room and speaker placement. This is why some people love the bass output of the VT-2.4 and others say it can sound too thin. This is one of the main reasons that I think biamping speakers, like the Four is so beneficial. It gives you a lot of control over the bass frequency response and balance.

Oh yeah, I've been tellin' all these new Four owners that they should bi-amp them with X2s.

VT-2.4, 2.9, and maybe even 3.3 owners (especially of the front wall behind them isn't too solid) should consider it as well IMO.

... women *demand* the wood.

I just wanted to capture this quote for posterity. :D:p

I have a 7.3 surround system based on the 2.4 series:
2) VT-2.4
5) VS-2.4
And love the sound of these speakers.
here are pics of my theather: www.socalht.com/ray

Later
RayJr

Beautiful set up Ray. Though I've never heard the 2.4's, I'm sure they are without a doubt, great speakers. Enjoy your home theater:).

Ben

I agree, nice looking room & system. ;)

It's happened before. To NHT.

Any news on the reported purchase of the company?

Peter

So Peter, have you had a chance to play around with the T5s yet, and if so, thoughts?

Mark,
I haven't been able to find an X2 for $200...where are you finding them?

Click on the link in this quote: ;)

Well, here's the list of stuff going here - http://forum.adnm.com/viewtopic.php?p=844#844

Music wise, do you guys pick Classic 2/3 over M5/6? I think M5/6 is slightly warmer and accurate, am I wrong?

Depends on the music. Classics do some kinds of music better, and Evos do some kinds better IMO. For instance, for rock music, the Evos are the better choice for their better dynamics, but if I were into like a 60 or 70-some piece symphony orchestra music, I'd prolly pick the Classics for their wider soundstaging (if the room was wide and/or well damped enough of course).

This is pretty much much the consensus opinion here by most who have both series - that Classics throw a wider soundstage, and the Evos have better dynamics.

As always though, YMMV. ;)

I'm not understanding the above statement. This is very much what sells (if nothing else is standing in the way). Now, there can be a disconnect if someone feels that big size is required for big sound, but that is the very recipe for what sells, apart from inwall/onwall speakers. The trick is to put the speaker into a package that a woman wants and that has been NHT's biggest issue in the past. The original VT1 was ahead of its time, with it's stick-like style. Now that style is "in" because of thin TVs (think a tower version of the L5). VT2s sold like crazy because they matched big screen TVs. If someone had a big screen, we sold them VT2s. The problem is that NHT kind of stopped adapting or tried to solve problems that didn't exist. The A/V switch on the VT series just wasn't used. Nice gimmick, but few used it. And NHT refused to do wood finish and women *demand* the wood. I've lost dozens and dozens of big sales over this. That I know about. The problem with standing on principle and not doing a small wood clad speaker is that people will go buy a *big* wood speaker from someone else, just to have furniture. Small powerful subs sell. Big powerful subs don't (unless it's a dedicated theater or all male household).

So, IMO, none of those benefits are in the position of "not what sells". It's just that there are other things that are important that NHT has often ignored.

Xds for the most part covered all the criteria in the part of Jack's post which you quoted in yours here, no?

Something just happened at NHT. I think it was just officially sold, but not entirely sure. Stay tuned............

Well that's got to be nothing but good news, right?

Mark,
John's looking to see if he has anymore, but thinks he might be out of them...

So Peter, have you had a chance to play around with the T5s yet, and if so, thoughts?
I cheaped-out to save the shipping, and have a friend who is local to the dealer bringing them down to me - hopefully next week. Right now, I'm sitting in front of a fire at Deer Valley, having skied 6-12" of very fresh powder at Alta today (trees, steeps - great stuff; 200" of snow so far this year). The house (my sister's friend's) is ski-in/ski-out, but fresh powder trumps convenience. Snow Basin got 12" last night and is getting another 12" by tomorrow night (from my fingers to God's ears) so we'll probably drive Monday, too! Okay, this is a speaker thread, but I had to gloat for those who are stuck back home working. :D

Peter

I started my NHT speaker owner ship with superzeros and then bought 3 vs-2 for L/C/R with the superzeros for surrounds. Then I gave the vs 2 to my son who gave them back because I gave him my 2.9's and I sold the vs-2 a couple of years ago. Then my son when he was getting ready to get married gave the 2.9's back because his future wife said they where to big. But now a year after married she bought him a 65" tv so she is starting to see the light. BUT he is not getting the 2.9s back.
Allen

John - Any idea what Paradigm sells in a year?

Probably $25M to $75M/year, or thereabouts. Just a guess. Could be more, but I don't think they've cracked the top ten. Probably top 20.

Xds for the most part covered all the criteria in the part of Jack's post which you quoted in yours here, no?

Sure, and if they were the same price as VT1.4s, we couldn't have kept them in stock. $6K was too much for their target audience. Too little for the actual performance and the audiophile audience.

Sorry guys, I just have to go to storage and have been really busy. I think I have either one or two X2s there.

John,
as long as my name is on one of the X-2's...:D I've got a long wait for the Four's to show up here...I hope they are worth it...

I just wanted to capture this quote for posterity. :D:p

Damn, I can't believe I missed that. Too much holiday cheer...or maybe it's too much blood in my alcohol stream...

:p

Pardon my jumping in here, guys, but I just noticed on NHT's website that the Classic 4 line shows the towers with the bottom sidethrowing subs facing inward.

I have a pair of VT 1.2's that I've set up all these years with the sidwoofers shooting outwards - not inwards, as the website shows.

Does it matter? Kinda feel stupid now that I've seen the set-up on NHT's site and had it wrong for so long.

Also need to replace my old Sub One. Thinking of the Classic 12 or can "$teal" a newish Sub 2 (yes, an oldie but a goodie) from a friend.

Suggestions and advice much appreciated.

Pardon my jumping in here, guys, but I just noticed on NHT's website that the Classic 4 line shows the towers with the bottom sidethrowing subs facing inward.

I have a pair of VT 1.2's that I've set up all these years with the sidwoofers shooting outwards - not inwards, as the website shows.

Does it matter? Kinda feel stupid now that I've seen the set-up on NHT's site and had it wrong for so long.

Also need to replace my old Sub One. Thinking of the Classic 12 or can "$teal" a newish Sub 2 (yes, an oldie but a goodie) from a friend.

Suggestions and advice much appreciated.
Ken,
Don't know about the 4s, but the Evo series (T5, T6) can be faced either pointing in or out.

Re: subs, you JUST missed great deals on the Evo subs (U1 or U2) for about $500. Gone now (got mine!).

Peter

.. now that I feel even worse, where did you get your Evo sub, Peter?

I cheaped-out to save the shipping, and have a friend who is local to the dealer bringing them down to me - hopefully next week. Right now, I'm sitting in front of a fire at Deer Valley, having skied 6-12" of very fresh powder at Alta today (trees, steeps - great stuff; 200" of snow so far this year). The house (my sister's friend's) is ski-in/ski-out, but fresh powder trumps convenience. Snow Basin got 12" last night and is getting another 12" by tomorrow night (from my fingers to God's ears) so we'll probably drive Monday, too! Okay, this is a speaker thread, but I had to gloat for those who are stuck back home working. :D

Peter

Gloat....I live 20 minutes from Deer Valley/Park City/The Canyons, or Solitude/Brighton, or Snowbird/Alta.....Yep all 3 canyons are within 20 to 30 minutes of home:p

Pardon my jumping in here, guys, but I just noticed on NHT's website that the Classic 4 line shows the towers with the bottom sidethrowing subs facing inward.

I have a pair of VT 1.2's that I've set up all these years with the sidwoofers shooting outwards - not inwards, as the website shows.

Does it matter? Kinda feel stupid now that I've seen the set-up on NHT's site and had it wrong for so long.

Also need to replace my old Sub One. Thinking of the Classic 12 or can "$teal" a newish Sub 2 (yes, an oldie but a goodie) from a friend.

Suggestions and advice much appreciated.

Well the Fours can go either way, but it is best to use the one that has the most open, free space in front of the sub drivers.

As for the VT-1.2, according to it's manual here:

http://nhthifi.com/2006/manuals/vintage/vt1_2_man.pdf

in the second paragraph on page 3 (under "placement") it clearly says to place them facing to the outside, but that was also from back in the day of assuming that a large tube TV would prolly be in-between them.

Since the VT-1.2's tweeter is not offset like the VT-1.4's is, I wouldn't think it would really matter too much either way. Just use the option with the most free space.

Sure, and if they were the same price as VT1.4s, we couldn't have kept them in stock. $6K was too much for their target audience. Too little for the actual performance and the audiophile audience.

Yeah, but that doesn't that also kinda validate pretty much exactly what Jack said here:

I think the VT-1.2/VT-1.4 were fantastic products, because they had a great balance of small size, small LOOKS, good bass output, great imaging and reasonable price. Unfortunately that is not what sells.

You did raise a very good point before - if the VT-1.4s came out now, they would prolly sell like hot cakes, especially if their were optional finishes available like silver, white, etc. in addition to black. They really were almost ahead of their time.

BUT he is not getting the 2.9s back.
Allen

:D

I just wanted to capture this quote for posterity. :D:p

Hey, look, I can only tell you what I've experienced :D

Yeah, but that doesn't that also kinda validate pretty much exactly what Jack said here:



You did raise a very good point before - if the VT-1.4s came out now, they would prolly sell like hot cakes, especially if their were optional finishes available like silver, white, etc. in addition to black. They really were almost ahead of their time.

I guess the thing is that, as a company, you have to appear as though getting the performance you got was a *colossal* struggle against physics and to put out s speaker that gets that performance effortlessly and at a low price makes people think that it must not be that good. The big "selling point" of most speakers these days is "what it took to get here". It's like saying that a beer that is cooled on the snows of Mt Everest tastes better than one that comes out of a refrigerator. Maybe it *seems* to taste better, but in reality..........

I must say the one thing I like about my VT-2.4s is the bass response I get in my room. Very full yet not too boomy. The one downside is that they can be very sensitive to bright recordings when I use them for two channel music. They're very detailed speakers especially on the mid range and treble. They're the kind of speaker that needs good equipment both for amps and sources.

Reason I was all of the sudden interested in the VT-2.4s is that was the one main NHT model that I really didn't have too much experience with, but, that has now changed. :D

I picked up a pair at a great price off of a local craig's list and wanted to get some other's impressions of them. I have spent enough time with them now that I can give at least my early impressions of them so far.

In short for now, even though I figured that they would obviously be great HT speakers, they have fooled me big time on 2 channel music. I'm using them in the same room which I have previously used other comparable NHT models, the T5s, Fours, and 2.9s. I haven't bi-amped them with an X2 and A1s yet, but I'm doing the next best thing by driving them with a software updated Controller with model specific Deq for them and a Power5 which has plenty of juice to drive them full range/large. They are placed perpendicular with no toe in 12" out from the front wall behind them, about 5' apart and the main listening position about 7.5' out.

As I found with virtually every NHT tower I've ever heard (even the VT-1.4), they have deep, tight, and powerful bass, but in some ways, I actually like them better than VT-3s/T5s! Mainly in that I feel they actually have better midrange dynamics than the models with three way designs for the upper frequency drivers like the T5s and VT-3s. Their bass also seems a little to dig a little deeper in their extension than T5s, Fours, or 2.9s (with a stock, unmodded X1on the T5s that is). Plus I like the bipole feature at the flick of a switch as opposed to having to engage the VT-3's bass control unit in it's "movie mode" on them.

One thing they don't do IMO as well as the other three comparable models though, is the almost holographic imaging the others all seem to possess, not that the VT-2/4's imaging is by any means bad though, and that's with them pointing straight ahead. A little toe-in might obviously help this improve a little. They do throw a wider soundstage than all but the Fours though IMO. I don't find them to be too bright with the Controller/Power5 at all either. My ears can be a little sensitive to bright speakers, but I have listened to these for hours on end at relatively high volumes with no listener's fatigue whatsoever, and they indeed have great dynamics. They can crank! ;)

.. now that I feel even worse, where did you get your Evo sub, Peter?
HiDefLifestyle (www.hideflifestyle.com) but they're out. :( They do have T5s left... :)
Peter

Thanks

I just got a strangely worded murky one page letter saying that Mary Cardas (sales person) is stepping down and Chris Byrne (founder) and John Johnson (long time sales person) are coming back to NHT. It didn't mention anything about a sale of the company or anything else. I think there's more to the story, but it's hard to say because Keith (current CEO) talks a lot in his press releases, but never tells you the whole scoop. I doubt that Keith and Chris/John are pals exactly.

I'm kind of at peace with getting out of NHT but who knows? What it does likely mean is that NHT will kind of go back to "same old, same old", which probably means great products at great prices, poor marketing and shaky dealer support and that's good news for at least some people (well, you know, comparatively), though not quite the major shift I was really hoping to see.

Even "the same old same old" at this point would obviously be better than the alternative of the company closing down entirely, but if some major changes aren't made to the current business model, then this whole crap will likely only inevitably flare up once again sooner or later on down the road, and this would then unfortunately wind up as being a missed opportunity to try to correct the problems once and for all in order to help prevent it from ever happening again.

Reason I was all of the sudden interested in the VT-2.4s is that was the one main NHT model that I really didn't have too much experience with, but, that has now changed. :D

I picked up a pair at a great price off of a local craig's list and wanted to get some other's impressions of them. I have spent enough time with them now that I can give at least my early impressions of them so far.

In short for now, even though I figured that they would obviously be great HT speakers, they have fooled me big time on 2 channel music. I'm using them in the same room which I have previously used other comparable NHT models, the T5s, Fours, and 2.9s. I haven't bi-amped them with an X2 and A1s yet, but I'm doing the next best thing by driving them with a software updated Controller with model specific Deq for them and a Power5 which has plenty of juice to drive them full range/large. They are placed perpendicular with no toe in 12" out from the front wall behind them, about 5' apart and the main listening position about 7.5' out.

As I found with virtually every NHT tower I've ever heard (even the VT-1.4), they have deep, tight, and powerful bass, but in some ways, I actually like them better than VT-3s/T5s! Mainly in that I feel they actually have better midrange dynamics than the models with three way designs for the upper frequency drivers like the T5s and VT-3s. Their bass also seems a little to dig a little deeper in their extension than T5s, Fours, or 2.9s (with a stock, unmodded X1on the T5s that is). Plus I like the bipole feature at the flick of a switch as opposed to having to engage the VT-3's bass control unit in it's "movie mode" on them.

One thing they don't do IMO as well as the other three comparable models though, is the almost holographic imaging the others all seem to possess, not that the VT-2/4's imaging is by any means bad though, and that's with them pointing straight ahead. A little toe-in might obviously help this improve a little. They do throw a wider soundstage than all but the Fours though IMO. I don't find them to be too bright with the Controller/Power5 at all either. My ears can be a little sensitive to bright speakers, but I have listened to these for hours on end at relatively high volumes with no listener's fatigue whatsoever, and they indeed have great dynamics. They can crank! ;)Great review. When I mentioned the brightness it was more of a comment about the source material than the speakers. I think the speakers are pretty accurate and when a recording is hot then it's going to sound bright. With well recorded and mastered music they sound great. Glad you like them and let us know how they compare with the other NHT speakers you own once you've had them for a while.

Yeah, the every two year sale of the company and the resulting moving of the furniture on the deck is frustrating. I already committed to bringing in a lot more PSB and have filled out paperwork for two other speaker companies. Obviously, I'd like to remain an NHT dealer, but I'm not ready for another two years of "same old, same old". I like Chris and John but it will depend on their willingness to really embrace new ideas for product and marketing. And, of course, whether the company was actually sold or not. And whether Jack is going back or not.

Harman actually designs and builds OEM products for the auto industry. Bose doesn't have any OEM manufacturing. They just charge a license fee to the automaker for ploping their name all over the car.
I think you are referring to THX, no? Bose, on the other hand, manufactures OEM car amplifiers and speakers in their own plants.

Hello,

I have been reading this thread for some time and found the good deals on the NHT Classic series, albeit somewhat independently, and am the happy processors of 4 Classic 3's with a Classic 12 and a just arrived Integra 9.8 pre-pro. I am looking for a recommend a power amp and any suggestions would be appreciated,

Thanks,

John B.

Thanks,

John B.

Hello,

I have been reading this thread for some time and found the good deals on the NHT Classic series, albeit somewhat independently, and am the happy processors of 4 Classic 3's with a Classic 12 and a just arrived Integra 9.8 pre-pro. I am looking for a recommend a power amp and any suggestions would be appreciated,

Thanks,

John B.

Thanks,

John B.

Here you go:

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7500.html

Soooo......... the marketing will still be bad then?
Reminds of the head of Oldsmobile saying they should have not renewed the contract with the same advertising company they had for over 50 years.
It got them the incredibly unmemorable ad of all black Oldsmobiles shot in low light that you couldn't see, not only 'cause it was dark, but because they were driving through a cornfield.
Oldsmobile isn't around anymore. Gm decided not to fund any new vehicle development in 1999 and in December 2000 annnounced that Olds was folding.

So unless we hear anything about new products, NHT won't be around either.

Soooo......... the marketing will still be bad then? So unless we hear anything about new products, NHT won't be around either.

Nah don't get me wrong. John and Chris know how to keep NHT in business. It sounds like the clock is just getting rolled back to pre-Vinci. I think Chris and John are both good salesmen, but that's different from being good at marketing. Salemen are good at convincing you that you need their product after you've seen it (or in NHT's case, let it speak for itself). Marketers are good at convincing you that you need their product *before* you've seen it. Different specialty. Companies like Bose and B&W have exceptional marketing. It's hard for a sales person, or even the product itself, to overcome exceptional marketing. But if Chris and John are coming back, it means that NHT will be viable for quite some time to come. My main worry is that Krazy Keith was going to simply shut down the company because he no longer had any staff, nor any idea of how to grow the company, nor was he humble enough to just *ask* someone what he should do. NHT can pretty much survive as long as the people in charge want it to survive. Growing NHT? Well, that will take bringing on someone who understands marketing.

Roger,

I didn't mean THX. I based my Bose comments on the number of factories, making Bose products or parts for Bose products, that I've been in. None of which were owned by Bose of course. A number of current and exBose employees have also told me where various systems and components were made. They all gave me the impression that as much manufacturing was outsourced as possible.

Seriously, how friggin' hard is it to bring John in for at LEAST a consultant's role? He loves and respects the products and their history. He knows what sells and would sell, what people like and want.

Roger,

I didn't mean THX. I based my Bose comments on the number of factories, making Bose products or parts for Bose products, that I've been in. None of which were owned by Bose of course. A number of current and exBose employees have also told me where various systems and components were made. They all gave me the impression that as much manufacturing was outsourced as possible.
Hi Jack,

Yes, Bose also has a number of their products made for them by outside manufacturers--I agree. But your original post was referring to car products, and I can assure you Bose does make speaker drivers and car amplifiers in their own plants, right here in USA. So they don't "just charge a license fee to the automaker for ploping their name all over the car." I felt that characterization was undeserved, as it's rather more involved and time-consuming than that to get a Bose sound system into a car.

Just took a look at the Bose website, which notes: >>Bose has over 9,000 employees working at a number of facilities both here and abroad. There are eight manufacturing facilities and 16 international subsidiaries.<<

There are also several job postings listed for their manufacturing plants.

There are also several job postings listed for their manufacturing plants.


Nominated for arsehole quote of the week.

Nominated for arsehole quote of the week.

Seconded, and nomination carried forward.

Hello,

I have been reading this thread for some time and found the good deals on the NHT Classic series, albeit somewhat independently, and am the happy processors of 4 Classic 3's with a Classic 12 and a just arrived Integra 9.8 pre-pro. I am looking for a recommend a power amp and any suggestions would be appreciated,

Thanks,

John B.

Here you go:

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7500.html

I'm sure that's a great amp for the $$$, but I would suggest this one instead:

http://www.emotiva.com/lpa1.html

... and put the over $1000 price difference into a sweet integrated amp for two channel. Plus, if you ever go 7.1, you're already covered in terms having enough amp channels. ;)

Or, getting a U2 sub set instead of the Twelve. :p

Great review. When I mentioned the brightness it was more of a comment about the source material than the speakers. I think the speakers are pretty accurate and when a recording is hot then it's going to sound bright. With well recorded and mastered music they sound great. Glad you like them and let us know how they compare with the other NHT speakers you own once you've had them for a while.

Right now, I'm really digging them. They are noticeably "warmer" (easier to listen to) IMO than either the 2.9s or Fours, but yet they are at the same time also very dynamic. Very close to the T5s in both regards. They are just flat out a fun speaker to listen to. I can already say right now without a doubt that I could definitely live with them long term.

I did add an X2 and A1s to bi-amp them with today, and it only made their bass performance just that much better. I highly recommend you and Ray to do the same.;):D

Soooo......... the marketing will still be bad then?
Reminds of the head of Oldsmobile saying they should have not renewed the contract with the same advertising company they had for over 50 years.
It got them the incredibly unmemorable ad of all black Oldsmobiles shot in low light that you couldn't see, not only 'cause it was dark, but because they were driving through a cornfield.
Oldsmobile isn't around anymore. Gm decided not to fund any new vehicle development in 1999 and in December 2000 annnounced that Olds was folding.

So unless we hear anything about new products, NHT won't be around either.

If NHT only had a national dealer network in proportion to that which Oldsmobile had.

The lack of a reasonable nationwide ready availaibility is IMO what is killing NHT. If you aren't going to be a true nationwide B&M brand, then it's time to go ID and focus on price.

I highly recommend you and Ray to do the same.;):D

I'm obligated......pusher. :)

I'm obligated......pusher. :)


Hey, I'm just trying to help. Especially at the current prices you can get X2s and A1s for. :p

It took me a while to "get it", but Jack is absolutely right that it is better to add an X2 and A1s to Fours, VT-2.4s, etc. than to try to integrated another sub with them. You might lose a few Hz in extension and maybe just a little output when compared to, say, some of the bigger SVSs for example, but that's about it. And you gain better integration, especially on 2 channel.

If NHT only had a national dealer network in proportion to that which Oldsmobile had.

The lack of a reasonable nationwide ready availaibility is IMO what is killing NHT. If you aren't going to be a true nationwide B&M brand, then it's time to go ID and focus on price.

You keep saying that like it's some form of magic bullet. It doesn't work like that. At best you're trading a small part of a huge pie for a bigger part of a dramatically smaller pie. And they already are "mail order" which is practically the same. Look at those Outlaw Audio speakers. They cost more than NHTs at retail price, so there's no guarantee that ID makes for lower real sales pricing and you're giving up the marketing capacity of the dealers. Why doesn't Wal-Mart just close its costly stores and do "ID"? Every ID company would go retail in a heartbeat if someone like Best Buy or Circuit City rang up with a huge commitment. Many have experimented with retail trying to expand their size. It's hard to build a good dealer base, but there's no replacement for one.

You keep saying that like it's some form of magic bullet. It doesn't work like that. At best you're trading a small part of a huge pie for a bigger part of a dramatically smaller pie. And they already are "mail order" which is practically the same. Look at those Outlaw Audio speakers. They cost more than NHTs at retail price, so there's no guarantee that ID makes for lower real sales pricing and you're giving up the marketing capacity of the dealers. Why doesn't Wal-Mart just close its costly stores and do "ID"? Every ID company would go retail in a heartbeat if someone like Best Buy or Circuit City rang up with a huge commitment. Many have experimented with retail trying to expand their size. It's hard to build a good dealer base, but there's no replacement for one.

Well you can spin it anyway you want to, but even you can't deny that the current model of NHT's dealer network as it now exists has been nothing but a complete and total colossal failure. And very, very few (if any) people are going to place an ID or "mail" order for equipment in this business at full retail price. It just ain't going to happen. They will simply order another ID brand that is discounted instead. There is more loyalty to the dollar and price than the brand itself.

One other thing you simply can't deny is that these recent SD Classic and Evo close out prices are very close to what ID prices would be, and just look at the results. ;)

Seriously, how friggin' hard is it to bring John in for at LEAST a consultant's role? He loves and respects the products and their history. He knows what sells and would sell, what people like and want.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I've offered things like this for years, part time, full time, paid, unpaid, whatever, and they have no interest at all. While I'd really have fun growing NHT, I'd be happy to have them hire *anybody* to do it.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I've offered things like this for years, part time, full time, paid, unpaid, whatever, and they have no interest at all. While I'd really have fun growing NHT, I'd be happy to have them hire *anybody* to do it.

Fact is, you have already done more for marketing NHT on this thread than anything they have ever done for themselves.

Well you can spin it anyway you want to, but even you can't deny that the current model of NHT's dealer network as it now exists has been nothing but a complete and total colossal failure. And very, very few (if any) people are going to place an ID or "mail" order for equipment in this business at full retail price. It just ain't going to happen. They will simply order another ID brand that is discounted instead. There is more loyalty to the dollar and price than the brand itself.

Most people buy on perception, not price. And, when you buy "ID", you're buying "full retail price". Oh, you can say "we'd charge more if we had dealers", but you simply don't know that. I just don't think you understand the dynamics of this. And NHT's network hasn't been a failure at all. The failure has been in the marketing. B&W isn't building a better product, not even at triple the price, but they have exceptional marketing and that means dealers are standing in line to get the product. If you do the marketing and dealer support, you'll have the dealer base. If you have the dealer base, you can compete on any level you want.

One other thing you simply can't deny is that these recent SD Classic and Evo close out prices are very close to what ID prices would be, and just look at the results. ;)

I can deny that all day. If NHT had to hire all the staffing and do all the sales work, shipping/receiving, service, etc, their costs would go up. Like I said, you don't understand the dynamics of this. All you're doing is transferring the cost of doing business, you're not deleting it, at least not entirely. If what you say is true, every company in every sector would cut out the dealer network and get rich, but they don't because they understand the dynamic and know it would kill any growth curve. Bose has a consumer direct division, but it can't compete with dealers. I know, I used to work for it. It almost got shut down entirely because it just wasn't hitting the numbers.

Fact is, you have already done more for marketing NHT on this thread than anything they have ever done for themselves.

Sad, but probably true. But I'm not even trying. If I were, I'd be *super* nice, mr non-combative, but I'm just screwing around and mentally bored.

Most people buy on perception, not price.

Yeah, the recent Evo and SD Classic close out prices and resulting sales totals have very clearly demonstrated that, huh? ;)

And, when you buy "ID", you're buying "full retail price". Oh, you can say "we'd charge more if we had dealers", but you simply don't know that.

But you do know, huh? ;)

I just don't think you understand the dynamics of this. And NHT's network hasn't been a failure at all.

Sorry John, but the fact is that when a lot more of the country's population doesn't have a dealer within a reasonable distance than those who do, it is a failure. This is exactly why your previous CC/BB/Walmart analogies simply do not hold water here as it isn't exactly like there is an NHT dealer on every corner, nor is there ever going to be.

Besides, if the current dealer network was even half as great as you seem to think it is, NHT simply wouldn't be in the position it is right now, now would it? Most dealers are not like you - they are not "married" to the brand so to speak, and simply just don't care nearly as much, thus will not push it like you do. Case in point - my local dealer.

The failure has been in the marketing. B&W isn't building a better product, not even at triple the price, but they have exceptional marketing and that means dealers are standing in line to get the product. If you do the marketing and dealer support, you'll have the dealer base. If you have the dealer base, you can compete on any level you want.

If you will notice, in my post that started all this with you yet again, I said something along the lines "if it can't be a true nationwide B&M brand, then it is time to try something else like maybe ID and focusing on pricing" since the "same old same old" clearly hasn't been cutting it, and prolly isn't ever going to. I'll bet NHT would gladly trade sales/market shares with AV123 or SVS right now. ;)

I can deny that all day. If NHT had to hire all the staffing and do all the sales work, shipping/receiving, service, etc, their costs would go up. Like I said, you don't understand the dynamics of this. All you're doing is transferring the cost of doing business, you're not deleting it, at least not entirely. If what you say is true, every company in every sector would cut out the dealer network and get rich, but they don't because they understand the dynamic and know it would kill any growth curve. Bose has a consumer direct division, but it can't compete with dealers. If that's the case, then why are there Bose stores in the very same malls as there are Sears stores which also sale Bose and/or why will Bose's consumer direct 800# gladly sale you a their products even if there are multiple dealers/stores in your area? I know, I used to work for it. It almost got shut down entirely because it just wasn't hitting the numbers.

And just exactly who shipped you your speakers when you ordered them, someone in China? ;)

Besides, they could even outsource it if they had to a hell of a lot cheaper to the final price than dealer's approximate 50% markups to the wholesale price. Plus, all warranty work repairs already have to be shipped back to CA just the same anyway, so that much of it is already in place.

Well, sure, if they just wanted to give up on all of that hard work, ID would be a safe, easy way to be a small company with limited growth opportunity and new competitors coming out of the woodwork every day.........

Besides, if buying speakers speakers sound unheard purely on the basis of performance for the money, real or perceived, were truly the way to go, Xd would have already destroyed high-end as we know it. Nuff said? :D

Besides, if buying speakers speakers sound unheard purely on the basis of performance for the money, real or perceived, were truly the way to go, Xd would have already destroyed high-end as we know it. Nuff said? :D

Well they clearly couldn't do it by being heard first in dealer's showrooms either, now could they? ;)

That is, if someone could actually find a dealer that had them on display for auditioning, so I have to concede that you may actually have a valid point there, even if it was not in the way you clearly intended it. :p :D

But, how many pairs of Xds would have been sold ID if they were about half to 60% of the retail price? The figure couldn't possibly be any less than it already is anyway.

Well, sure, if they just wanted to give up on all of that hard work, ID would be a safe, easy way to be a small company with limited growth opportunity and new competitors coming out of the woodwork every day.........

Anything that will actually grow the company's business over what it is now and make it more stable should be considered IMO, regardless of how it's accomplished.

Nominated for arsehole quote of the week.

You guys are being a bit sensitive, no? I think Roger mentioned the manufacturing jobs posting to show that Bose does do some of its own manufacturing, rather than suggesting that Jack should go find a job there.

--Andre

ummm...John, any luck getting out to the storage unit yet?:D Looks like to get my Fours here I'm going to have to pony up an extra $250.00 for priority mail. It seems that UPS and Fed Ex has an attitude about shipping to FPO's...I don't think I'll do business with either when I finally get home. :mad:

Okay back to the "How to Save NHT" thread in progress...

You keep saying that like it's some form of magic bullet. It doesn't work like that. At best you're trading a small part of a huge pie for a bigger part of a dramatically smaller pie. And they already are "mail order" which is practically the same. Look at those Outlaw Audio speakers. They cost more than NHTs at retail price, so there's no guarantee that ID makes for lower real sales pricing and you're giving up the marketing capacity of the dealers. Why doesn't Wal-Mart just close its costly stores and do "ID"? Every ID company would go retail in a heartbeat if someone like Best Buy or Circuit City rang up with a huge commitment. Many have experimented with retail trying to expand their size. It's hard to build a good dealer base, but there's no replacement for one.


When I bought my first set of NHT speakers in 1994 (as I recall), NHT speakers were sold through a regional department store chain as well as from a few smaller dealers. NHT speakers would be advertised (AKA On Sale) at least once a month in the newpaper Sunday adds. The chain was later bought by Montgomery Ward as I recall, and then the audio section of the stores were downgraded in size and selection. Sort of the look of a smaller Sears store.

After MW went bankrupt, I have not seen an NHT speaker in any local store (not that I was looking to buy another set), nor have I seen them being advertised locally. Then again, I tend to hate boutique types of stores (AKA salesman) so I avoid them. I think that Tweeter carried NHT at one time, but I never cared much for Tweeter either.

NHT speakers are too expensive to be low end, and too cheap to be considered higher end. I like the piano black finish myself, but a lot of people do not like it. The XD color choice would never match the typical room decor in this part of the country, so that design choice was a non starter regardless of price and performance.

I also wonder if there are just too many speakers of all brands on the market these days. Not to mention that Ebay has offered an outlet for good used speakers at low prices.

You guys are being a bit sensitive, no? I think Roger mentioned the manufacturing jobs posting to show that Bose does do some of its own manufacturing, rather than suggesting that Jack should go find a job there.

--Andre

Yes, I'm a very sensitive guy. It's part of being a product of the women's lib generation. I don't gamble, drink, smoke, chase whores or drive fast cars. I think the bikini is degrading to all women. I hate sports, especially on television. Further, I don't burp, fart or smell bad. I like my spouse for her mind. On the weekends I enjoy giving her massages and painting her toenails. I also dress very well, just so she isn't embarrassed to be seen with me. And most of all, I take all of this stuff very seriously.

:rolleyes:

I didn't take his comment to mean that Jack should go find a job their either.
Don't know how some of you guys did. I don't think Jack's expertise is in manufacturing anyway.

One of the things that makes me slightly uncomfortable about ID is that many on the companies' forums seems to bedrinking the Kool Aid.
They rave about the speakers and then a new model is announced and they buy that one, then another comes out and they buy that one too.
I see a few people on her that have multiple NHT set ups and upgrades but it just seems that some owners are so fanatical about their ID brands that it makes my radar go up when they tell me it's the best thing since sliced bread.
And some of the prices on speakers that they rave about are so low that I wonder.
There's got to be shortcuts taken in the crossover or something.

One of the things that makes me slightly uncomfortable about ID is that many on the companies' forums seems to bedrinking the Kool Aid.
They rave about the speakers and then a new model is announced and they buy that one, then another comes out and they buy that one too.
I see a few people on her that have multiple NHT set ups and upgrades but it just seems that some owners are so fanatical about their ID brands that it makes my radar go up when they tell me it's the best thing since sliced bread.
And some of the prices on speakers that they rave about are so low that I wonder.
There's got to be shortcuts taken in the crossover or something.

Although the only way to know for sure would be to try a pair.

To the NHT Experts,
Whats the difference between the X1 and X2 crossovers?

Regards,
Ricky

To the NHT Experts,
Whats the difference between the X1 and X2 crossovers?

Regards,
Ricky X2-X1=Y....lol, I had too.

X1 is for evo subs only, X2 can be used on everything except evos.

Drats! Thanks for the info.

One of the things that makes me slightly uncomfortable about ID is that many on the companies' forums seems to bedrinking the Kool Aid.

This thread has had some healthy debate in it instead of being just a bunch of fanboys incessantly hi-fiving each other in one big, group circle jerk session, `a la some of the AV123 threads for example, but to say that at least some here in it haven't been serving up and/or drinking down the NHT kool aid? - c'mon. :p

They rave about the speakers and then a new model is announced and they buy that one, then another comes out and they buy that one too.
I see a few people on her that have multiple NHT set ups and upgrades but it just seems that some owners are so fanatical about their ID brands that it makes my radar go up when they tell me it's the best thing since sliced bread.
And some of the prices on speakers that they rave about are so low that I wonder.
There's got to be shortcuts taken in the crossover or something.

Or, just maybe the "middleman" markup perhaps? ;)

ummm...John, any luck getting out to the storage unit yet?:D Looks like to get my Fours here I'm going to have to pony up an extra $250.00 for priority mail. It seems that UPS and Fed Ex has an attitude about shipping to FPO's...I don't think I'll do business with either when I finally get home. :mad:

Storage should be open again today (they have crappy holiday hours). I'll be in touch. I think I have enough for you and another feller.

I didn't take his comment to mean that Jack should go find a job their either.
Don't know how some of you guys did. I don't think Jack's expertise is in manufacturing anyway.

Me neither. Roger's a good guy. I doubt he knows Jack is well, not jobless, but not "spoken for" at the moment.

Drats! Thanks for the info.

Which one did you accidentally get?

This thread has had some healthy debate in it instead of being just a bunch of fanboys incessantly hi-fiving each other in one big, group circle jerk session, `a la some of the AV123 threads for example, but to say that at least some here in it haven't been serving up and/or drinking down the NHT kool aid? - c'mon. :p

Hey, I serve up my koolaid with a shaker of salt!

Or, just maybe the "middleman" markup perhaps? ;)

Cold.....really cold.......

Keep in mind, what people often see as a "markup" is really a markdown for bulk purchasing. Buy a single tweeter from SEAS and pay $100. Buy 100 and you'll probably pay $75. Buy 1000 and you'll probably pay $50. Buy 5000 and pay $35. Or something like that. Just on the face of it, there's no real evidence at all that NHT charges too much for their product compared to ID *except* maybe the Ten/Twelve subs, but that's also *partly* because of the curved cabinet and piano lacquer finish.

You guys are being a bit sensitive, no? I think Roger mentioned the manufacturing jobs posting to show that Bose does do some of its own manufacturing, rather than suggesting that Jack should go find a job there.

--Andre

I don't see how anyone could have taken it another way, given the context of the discussion to that point -- unless they have a bit of 'arsehole' in them. And anyone who'd read Mr. Dressler's many, many informative posts on AVSforum would know he wasn't being mean.

Cold.....really cold.......

Not as cold as a dealer who doesn't even stock and display Xds in a showroom to audition (one of their main claims as to what they offer you for the money over ID, and I'm not even going to get into how a lot of NHT's dealers are custom installers that don't even have a showroom - case in point, where do you now display them?) still wanting full retail price to do nothing more than simply order a pair, with a deposit, if not full price, paid in advance I might add. :(

Keep in mind, what people often see as a "markup" is really a markdown for bulk purchasing. Buy a single tweeter from SEAS and pay $100. Buy 100 and you'll probably pay $75. Buy 1000 and you'll probably pay $50. Buy 5000 and pay $35. Or something like that.

And did you ever order even 100 pairs of speakers at a time? :p

Just on the face of it, there's no real evidence at all that NHT charges too much for their product compared to ID *except* maybe the Ten/Twelve subs, but that's also *partly* because of the curved cabinet and piano lacquer finish.

You're right, cause NHT themselves actually charges about 50% of the retail price. ;)

As for "growth" potential that the B&M model offers over ID, well, after 20 years now, just look at how much "growth" it has provided.

Look, we are just repeating the same old arguments here over again that we've already went through before. I fully understand why you are going to vigorously defend your position here on this, but all I'm saying is that the current model as is has clearly failed, and big changes must be made one way or the other to shake things up once and for all. If you don't also feel that way, then we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

And did you ever order even 100 pairs of speakers at a time? :p

Dude, you should have seen some of my bigger orders. One order was 4 or 5 pallets stacked 9' tall. When I unpacked them, they took up a wall that was 50' x 10', floor to ceiling. But, the NHT average customer (not you!) probably spent just $200/year or so over the last 10 years. I was doing more like $100K/year over the last 10 years (peaking at about $240K). And always pushed to do more. Not saying I order 100 pairs at one time, but certainly did several hundred per year.

As for "growth" potential that the B&M model offers over ID, well, after 20 years now, just look at how much "growth" it has provided.

B&W grew by 400% via B&M while taking a super aggressive stance against the internet. And we're not talking $1M to $4M like an ID company. We're talking like $40M to $150M.

Look, we are just repeating the same old arguments here over again that we've already went through before. I fully understand why you are going to vigorously defend your position here on this, but all I'm saying is that the current model as is has clearly failed, and big changes must be made one way or the other to shake things up once and for all. If you don't also feel that way, then we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

Just because NHT has had problems with the B&M model *recently* doesn't mean there's anything at all wrong with it. You're saying B&M is broken, but it's not. It has morphed into custom and, guess what the ID penetration is in custom? Not even worth the time to put in all the .000s.

Sonos has grown its business dramatically by going after B&M and now Best Buy. ID is like winning a war with the Air Force. You can do some damage, but you don't win until you have troops on the ground. It takes me an hour *minimum* to sell someone a Sonos system.

The problem isn't that B&M is dying, nor that it's a failed model, it's only that NHT hasn't done a good job with it *recently*. They *can*, they just need to get back in gear, mend relationships, be a steady supplier, continue to innovate, improve dealer service, etc, etc, etc.

If I were starting a new speaker company personally, sure, I might try ID to get going, but the holy grail is having good dealers who sell and display your product. ID is just going to get more and more confusing and some ID companies are going to get just big enough that they know the only growth will come if they get dealers in at least major cities. ID wants to be B&M. B&M has no desire to be ID. Why do you think B&W doesn't just cut out the middle man and try to double their sales via the internet? Because their entire brand image and everything desirable about them would collapse within a couple of years. I'm not saying B&M is key because I'm a dealer, I'm saying it because I know and understand the audio business and how it works. Like I said, if internet was the way to go, Xd would have been an enormous success because everyone would have been calling the ******* to order them at the bargain price of $6K, since they kill all but a very few $12K and up speakers.

Just as you think I'm defending my position because I'm a dealer, I know you just want a method of getting all the NHT you want at a ridiculously low price ;)

The problem isn't that B&M is dying, nor that it's a failed model, it's only that NHT hasn't done a good job with it *recently*. They *can*, they just need to get back in gear, mend relationships, be a steady supplier, continue to innovate, improve dealer service, etc, etc, etc. But as you know there always have been and still are some basic realities - even stronger now - that a lot of showrooms don't want to develop new buyers - handle the tire kickers, educate buyers, handle "smaller" sales. Maybe they are convinced that those people won't return for the big sale, and of course it's self-reinforcing - if they don't like the experience when they go in to talk about < $1000 a pair speakers, they won't come back the next time. It's understandable at some level, on all sides, but it's a long term problem.

P.S. - "some ID companies are going to get just big enough that they know the only growth will come if they get dealers in at least major cities." - AV123 is planning to try to sign up people to market for them by having a demo room set up - in their homes, I guess? Anyway, if you hadn't noticed it you might find it interesting to check out as something in between ID and dealers.

Yeah, that's true. We had a dealer, now out of business, that refused to give you the time of day unless you were there to do a big install. We're going to push custom more, HT remodels, etc, but we'll still make time for the tire kickers, as long as they're willing to kick the tires on one of the days the showroom will be open to the public ;) I kinda like not being tied down, so I can get out and see people's homes. A lot of tire kickers won't let you in the door because, well, they're afraid of being sold. One thing we always did was that we *never* pressured people into buying anything. We gave them the facts, made them feel comfortable, let them buy or not buy. They knew they could come in any time without being strong armed. I would say "you need *this*!!!" but always with a smile. I didn't tell them *when* they needed it, just that they needed it ;)

What's kind of funny is that people are so used to having people force the sale on them, they often have a hard time figuring out how to say "yes, I'd like to buy that!".

Wondering out loud if Jack will return to NHT with CB and JJ at the helm or if he's burned out on all of it. Of course, also wondering out loud if the company was sold or just a change of power structure. I expect an announcement will be made tomorrow of some sort. Tomorrow's the day they come back. Maybe that gave Keith time to get clear of the building or something.

Which one did you accidentally get?

I didnt get one yet...I saw the X1 on ebay. I pm'd you a little while ago to see if you might have an X2 that needed a home...

Regards,
Ricky

OK, one last and final reply on this, and then I'm done with this particular subject with you.

Dude, you should have seen some of my bigger orders. One order was 4 or 5 pallets stacked 9' tall.

Well, not that it really matters, and you might not believe it anyway, but that may be about close to what I've done myself here lately, and yes, I know all about what the closeout wholesale prices really were. All I'll say is this for an example - if M5s are being sold for $199 each shipped, well, you know that they are obviously still making a profit on them even at that over what they actually paid for them. ;)

When I unpacked them, they took up a wall that was 50' x 10', floor to ceiling. But, the NHT average customer (not you!) probably spent just $200/year or so over the last 10 years. I was doing more like $100K/year over the last 10 years (peaking at about $240K). And always pushed to do more. Not saying I order 100 pairs at one time, but certainly did several hundred per year.

Again though, this is all irrelevant anyway because you are trying to argue a point here that simply would not even apply in the first place since you would be looking at the collective ID sales as compared to the collective B&M sales totals, and if ID sales actually surpassed what they were as B&M sales (which really shouldn't be all that hard to do at that, I might add), then even you should be able to see that you have absolutely no point whatsoever here.

B&W grew by 400% via B&M while taking a super aggressive stance against the internet. And we're not talking $1M to $4M like an ID company. We're talking like $40M to $150M.

Just because NHT has had problems with the B&M model *recently* doesn't mean there's anything at all wrong with it. You're saying B&M is broken, but it's not.

You are either twisting words or simply not understanding what was written - I said that NHT's B&M model is clearly broken (if you could even say that it was ever really fixed to break down in the first place).

It has morphed into custom and, guess what the ID penetration is in custom? Not even worth the time to put in all the .000s.

Sonos has grown its business dramatically by going after B&M and now Best Buy. ID is like winning a war with the Air Force. You can do some damage, but you don't win until you have troops on the ground. It takes me an hour *minimum* to sell someone a Sonos system.

The problem isn't that B&M is dying, nor that it's a failed model, it's only that NHT hasn't done a good job with it *recently*.

Exactly my point, although I wouldn't classify it as only recently though.

They *can*, they just need to get back in gear, mend relationships, be a steady supplier, continue to innovate, improve dealer service, etc, etc, etc.

If they haven't been capable of that during the previous 20 years with the old group, then I really wouldn't hold my breath for too long over them all of the sudden doing it now. You've said yourself several times before that the engineering dept. was the only one who really knew what they are doing, and it was the only thing keeping them afloat this long.

If I were starting a new speaker company personally, sure, I might try ID to get going, but the holy grail is having good dealers who sell and display your product. ID is just going to get more and more confusing and some ID companies are going to get just big enough that they know the only growth will come if they get dealers in at least major cities. ID wants to be B&M. B&M has no desire to be ID. Why do you think B&W doesn't just cut out the middle man and try to double their sales via the internet? Because their entire brand image and everything desirable about them would collapse within a couple of years. I'm not saying B&M is key because I'm a dealer, I'm saying it because I know and understand the audio business and how it works. Like I said, if internet was the way to go, Xd would have been an enormous success because everyone would have been calling the ******* to order them at the bargain price of $6K, since they kill all but a very few $12K and up speakers.

Again, you are trying to argue an invalid point here, because to truly compare apples to apples here, the Xds would have had to have been available for 50 to 60 percent of the MSRP in this case.

For a comparative example, just look at Outlaw's RR2150 stereo receiver for only $100 more than the retail price of NAD's C720BEE 2 channel receiver. For that extra $100, you get literally over double the power and weight, and many more usable features, including a comprehensive bass management system.

Just as you think I'm defending my position because I'm a dealer, I know you just want a method of getting all the NHT you want at a ridiculously low price ;)

Oh trust me on this dude, there are already ways in place to get just that, and I do know of a few. ;) Believe it or not, this is not about me being greedy, selfish, or cheap. It is about what is best for the company and it's customers.

I'll say it one more time - NHT's current business model is IMO clearly not producing the results it should be, and major changes (not just minor tweaks) are needed if the company is ever going to quit running in place on a tread mill (at best). If you really feel that everything is just peaches & cream the way it currently is, well, I don't even know what else to say to you at this point.

So. who else is doing acoustic suspension direct radiators?

NHT is/was brilliant, and I have enough to last me 20 years (if they have any longevity at all) but just curious...old AR guy hear(sic), so interested.

Oh, is there any way to disabled the lights on the A1 short of pulling the bulbs?

Still think the Bose mobile guy that took the cheap shot is an *******. *******.

Did I mention he's an ass? The asterisks should read A S S H O L E.

Still think the Bose mobile guy that took the cheap shot is an *******. *******.

Did I mention he's an ass? The asterisks should read A S S H O L E.

You completely missed the whole point of the why they were discussing Bose in the first place. He wasn't praising Bose and he was not suggesting that Jack work at Bose. His point was that Bose manufactures their own product, not just outsource them to OEM makers. As proof, he made the point that Bose is hiring directly for their factories.

If anything, you look a bit foolish for completely misinterpreting the post and then resorting to name calling.

So. who else is doing acoustic suspension direct radiators?

A few. Not many though. With HT, I think it is *obvious* why acoustic suspension is the way to go. I think most companies just engineer for cheap Sony receivers and that whole "louder sounds better on an A/B switch" thing.

Oh, is there any way to disabled the lights on the A1 short of pulling the bulbs?

There's a switch under the front near the lights. Usually takes a small screwdriver if you have big fingers.

Still think the Bose mobile guy that took the cheap shot is an *******. *******.

Seriously, you're reading into things. The fact that *Bose* is hiring people for factory jobs means they must be building something themselves. It has nothing to do with Jack [maybe?] needing a job. Nothing at all. Even if Roger is capable of thinking it, he certainly wouldn't say it. He's too polite for that.

Mark,

All I can tell you is that, yes, NHT *could* adopt a pure ID model. And it might work. But you wouldn't see the savings you think you would. NHT is a *very* low margin company with ridiculously low employee count, so they couldn't afford to sell at wholesale to the public. No way, no how. Costs go up. Employees go up. Healthcare costs go up. Marketing costs go up. Everything goes up. I wouldn't expect more than maybe a 20-25% drop in out the door pricing. AND, growth would be harder. So it would likely "doom" them to being a $5M-$10M/year company with a very slow growth curve. B&W couldn't have achieved $150M/year via ID. Now way, now how. ID might be able to pull that off someday, but not likely. It's good for mostly under $1000/pr speakers. As the ID market grows, more will join proportionately, keeping the overall sales per company relatively static. As I said, ID companies would go to stores if they could and they're always subtly feeling out the market to see if they can make the leap. I've been approached before and probably will be again.

IOW, if I owned NHT, there's no way I would do ID. About the only change I would make is deleting no value added places like One Call, Amazon, etc and replacing it with a very well done NHT Direct store. It controls the value of the product, fills in holes for people who don't have a dealer and reinforces the value of the product for those thinking that value is just saving money. ID, however, is a *great* way for a small company to start from zero and get somewhere. Especially if their product is extremely differentiated, rather than "me too".

If it makes you feel better, I filled out paperwork for Revel, just waiting to hear back. I might not be big enough or cool enough for them, but I think they'll be okay with us.

So. who else is doing acoustic suspension direct radiators?

Off the top of my head: Triad, Snell Acoustics, Atlantic Technology, Cambridge Soundworks (sold ID, and yes, John, they use an aluminum dome tweeter) and Outlaw Audio (LCR).

As a consumer my options are disappearing quickly. I live in on the Coast in SC. The TriCounty area has over 600,000 people.
We have just 2 independent audio/custom install shops.
There really is no place to kick tires anymore.
One shop may not be around too much longer unless the owner gets serious and that won't ever happen, even though he has been in business since 1967.
The other is all about custom installs. Sells everything for full retail and has no interest in selling you equipment only. I don't go there.
So John, there is really no place to kick tires anymore.
I can drive to Columbia, SC which is 115 miles away and go to a nice shop. I've done this before.
When I look at dealer locators I see very few dealers for most companies throughout the States. Sometimes the closest dealer is 250+miles away.
I think a lot of blame goes to the companies. If they were serious they wouldn't allow any internet/mail order sales.
But how many of us won't buy unless it's a screaming deal?
As far as I'm concerned any B&M dealer who sells for more than 20% off on a regular basis can't stay in business unless they have a lot of install work.
Intenet companies can probably stay around at 40% off on many items if they buy by the truck or boxcar load.

Again, it was clear to me that the purpose of him mentioning that Bose was hiring in their manufacturing facilities was to bring home his point that they MANUFACTURE stuff.

Geez & LOL at some of you guys..

If I were NHT, one thing I would do, aside from opening an online store (as much to refer to dealers and answer customer questions as anything), I'd do small NHT boutiques, maybe only 1000 sq ft, in places where they just can't get anything good going. Then I'd contact every installer/builder/electrician in the area and work out an installer program where they can come pickup product at wholesale prices for their jobs, while the boutique demos the product for them, directly or indirectly and also sells out of the store, mainly stuff like Xd and Classic. There are at least 250 pretty major markets in which you could do this if there isn't anyone. And the great thing is, if they lose a sale out of state, they still make a sale. But, hey, that's just me and my crazy ideas..........

If I were NHT, one thing I would do, aside from opening an online store (as much to refer to dealers and answer customer questions as anything), I'd do small NHT boutiques, maybe only 1000 sq ft, in places where they just can't get anything good going. Then I'd contact every installer/builder/electrician in the area and work out an installer program where they can come pickup product at wholesale prices for their jobs, while the boutique demos the product for them, directly or indirectly and also sells out of the store, mainly stuff like Xd and Classic. There are at least 250 pretty major markets in which you could do this if there isn't anyone. And the great thing is, if they lose a sale out of state, they still make a sale. But, hey, that's just me and my crazy ideas..........

Big investment, though. Leases, staff, etc. Cambridge Soundworks tried something similar on both coasts. They're all closed now and they just do ID. Apparently they couldn't justify the added cost of the space, staff, etc. Apple Computer has shown that retail ain't dead, but they've got the wherewithal, the hip, the product and the following to pull it off.

(sold ID, and yes, John, they use an aluminum dome tweeter).

Hooray?

Hooray?

Just pointing out that there is (are) ID vendors making speakers with aluminum domes. You commented several pages back that they all (to your knowledge) used soft domes. Now you know that they all don't use soft domes, exclusively. Absolute statements need to be corrected with exceptions.

Small boutique stores would be interesting. They would probably have to be 400 sqft of display and 600sqft of stock. I can see it now. Custom installer walks in, "I need 20 pairs of inwalls and I need them tomorrow." Sorry sir, "we only have 4 pairs in stock."
Well the hell with you, "I'm going to Radio Shack."

Inventory control would be daunting. They'd have to hard wired to NHT and would probably get first dibs.

Just pointing out that there is (are) ID vendors making speakers with aluminum domes. You commented several pages back that they all (to your knowledge) used soft domes. Now you know that they all don't use soft domes, exclusively. Absolute statements need to be corrected with exceptions.

No, I think I just was asking why ID was so fascinated with soft domes, that most all of them use them.

No, I think I just was asking why ID was so fascinated with soft domes, that most all of them use them.

Yeah, you did say almost all. Sorry about that.

Big investment, though. Leases, staff, etc. Cambridge Soundworks tried something similar on both coasts. They're all closed now and they just do ID. Apparently they couldn't justify the added cost of the space, staff, etc. Apple Computer has shown that retail ain't dead, but they've got the wherewithal, the hip, the product and the following to pull it off.

True, you'd have to run a tight ship *but* it could be worth it. Total control over your image, for one thing, and I doubt CSW went to the trouble of going after the inwall/install business via wholesale. Doing free clinics on how to install properly, for example. Lots of installers need same day product. Others just need to have the opportunity to see/hear a superior product before understanding that it is worth it to sell. AND, if you show people how good the NHT inwalls are, many will demand it. If you're an electrician and you start seeing that you're wiring *for* NHT speakers, you might decide you want to *sell* NHT speakers.

I wouldn't do 50 at once, but it would be a great pilot project. NHT also has (still?) electronics and if you tie in projectors, LCDs, your own brand of cable, etc, you could end up doing pretty well. After all, Radio Shack stays in business selling overpriced crap (though the profit margin is ginormous).

Plus, I think NHT has a much better rep for gear than CSW. All they sold was typical mass market products, that doesn't make people want to rush in. But NHT would attract more audiophiles and serious listeners to come in. And you'd have to pitch it as a *real* HT store, not just a single brand speaker store. And have really knowledgeable people in the store that understand the gear and the competition. I know I've spend over $2500 at the Apple store this year. You get 100 people do that, and you're profitable (barely), even without the custom market. As more and more small shops disappear, something like an NHT store becomes more possible as people need *some* place to go.

After all, Radio Shack stays in business selling overpriced crap (though the profit margin is ginormous).I often wonder how they stay in business, but I guess that's a question for another thread.

You guys are being a bit sensitive, no? I think Roger mentioned the manufacturing jobs posting to show that Bose does do some of its own manufacturing, rather than suggesting that Jack should go find a job there.

--Andre
Yes, Andre, that is all that was intended. I hadn't realized such a simple statement could be so misinterpreted--thanks for seeing it clearly.

Why don't ID speaker companies use aluminum domes? The answer is real simple.

They don't want to give the customer an even easier excuse to return the product. Aluminum domes deform quite permanently when squished with fingers. Soft domes don't.

I'll bet that a typical ID speaker company has to deal with 10% returns due to "defective" product. By defective, I mean product that has been damaged by customers accidently or intentionally. Why make it even easier for them?

Yeah, you did say almost all. Sorry about that.

Eh, I don't even remember. I am just assuming I said almost. Strangely, soft domes seem to afflict most *new* companies. I like the Era speakers *except* for their tweeter. They like it. I think it just holds the product back from true greatness (as opposed to near greatness). It's the one thing that kept me from signing up for the product as the midrange is nice enough I can live with the port. However, I think their new Decco amp is so cool, I'm planning on selling it and I'll probably sell some of their speakers as well since many of my customers like soft domes. I think the best new metal tweeters really just shine a light on how deficient some of the midrange drivers are at resolution, but a soft dome seems to make the midrange stand out more and seem better. At least, that's what I hear when I listen. Then I put on the Classic Three and most everything seems deficient on most everything (in that class). I'm hoping Revel will take me, as I would kill to have a set of Salon2s or even Gems with a sub in the house. The Salon2 is the kind of speaker I've always pushed NHT to make.

I often wonder how they stay in business, but I guess that's a question for another thread.

Ginormous profit margin! They make some thing for 2¢ and sell it for $2.99. It really is that simple.

Why don't ID speaker companies use aluminum domes? The answer is real simple.

They don't want to give the customer an even easier excuse to return the product. Aluminum domes deform quite permanently when squished with fingers. Soft domes don't.

I'll bet that a typical ID speaker company has to deal with 10% returns due to "defective" product. By defective, I mean product that has been damaged by customers accidently or intentionally. Why make it even easier for them?

Eh, could be part of it, but I honestly think that it's partly just the fad of the times. And that a soft dome makes a soft midrange seem more detailed than it really is. Thats my theory. As a drummer, a tweeter that makes a stick sound like a brush pisses me off.

All I can tell you is that, yes, NHT *could* adopt a pure ID model. And it might work. But you wouldn't see the savings you think you would. NHT is a *very* low margin company with ridiculously low employee count, so they couldn't afford to sell at wholesale to the public. No way, no how. Costs go up. Employees go up. Healthcare costs go up. Marketing costs go up. Everything goes up. I wouldn't expect more than maybe a 20-25% drop in out the door pricing. AND, growth would be harder. So it would likely "doom" them to being a $5M-$10M/year company with a very slow growth curve. B&W couldn't have achieved $150M/year via ID. Now way, now how. ID might be able to pull that off someday, but not likely. It's good for mostly under $1000/pr speakers. As the ID market grows, more will join proportionately, keeping the overall sales per company relatively static. As I said, ID companies would go to stores if they could and they're always subtly feeling out the market to see if they can make the leap. I've been approached before and probably will be again.

IOW, if I owned NHT, there's no way I would do ID. About the only change I would make is deleting no value added places like One Call, Amazon, etc and replacing it with a very well done NHT Direct store. It controls the value of the product, fills in holes for people who don't have a dealer and reinforces the value of the product for those thinking that value is just saving money. ID, however, is a *great* way for a small company to start from zero and get somewhere. Especially if their product is extremely differentiated, rather than "me too".

If it makes you feel better, I filled out paperwork for Revel, just waiting to hear back. I might not be big enough or cool enough for them, but I think they'll be okay with us.

So it would cost too much for them to go ID, even though they obviously already have (or had) the staff on hand to take the orders of and ship out the volume of product they already did anyway to dealers, but yet they could easily afford to open up a chain of stores? OK ... whatever ....

The difference is that ID would keep them at the same size the are. If they fix the issues with B&M, they could grow the company to 5-10 times its current size while filling in the holes in the network with their own stores.

I don't know why you have such a hard time understanding all of this. It's basic business. You're thinking one dimensionally, but it's a multi-dimensional problem. But it's not that impossible to understand.

Just got a note from JJ. Looks like NHT has been purchased completely and they are in complete control. This, actually, rolls back the clock more like 15 years, pre Jensen. This could be very good. I never could tell whether CB and JJ rejected a lot of more advanced marketing/product stuff or whether they were just so constrained by the corporate masters. So, I'm more optimistic than I was even a day or two ago. Hopefully, Jack will go back.

The difference is that ID would keep them at the same size the are.

Uh huh, and you already know all of this to be fact with your crystal ball? Let's face it, it really wouldn't be too difficult to very quickly surpass where they are now via ID.

If they fix the issues with B&M, they could grow the company to 5-10 times its current size while filling in the holes in the network with their own stores.

I don't know why you have such a hard time understanding all of this. It's basic business. You're thinking one dimensionally, but it's a multi-dimensional problem. But it's not that impossible to understand.

What's the old saying - "If a bullfrog had wings, he wouldn't bump his @$$ when he jumps"? I guarantee you your chain of NHT stores would never even see the end of the first year before at least 90% of them closed the doors. Sure, there may be a few here and there that might could actually make it in bigger areas where there currently isn't an NHT dealer, like Atlanta for example, but that's about it, and you know it too even if you won't admit it.

From a cost effectiveness standpoint, if they are going to stick to the B&M route, then they would be much better off to simply aggressively go out to recruit and sign on new dealers in the areas that sorely lack them right now IMO, with Atlanta once again as a prime example, instead of opening a chain of NHT boutique stores that likely won''t even ultimately succeed anyway.

And at least I do know and understand enough about the B&M model to realize that as a small business owner, you would at least significantly cut down on (if not entirely eliminate altogether) the chances of getting repeatedly burglarized by investing in at least some kind of basic store security system, but yet you want to try to have us all believe that you somehow have the business knowledge and acumen that would grow NHT 5 to 10 times it's current size? Once again, OKayyyyy ... whatever ...

John,

I haven't been invited to the party yet, so I don't know if I'll be returning.

^^^ FWIW, sorry to hear that Jack. It's ultimately our loss as much as theirs. :(

Who actually bought NHT?
Was it insiders or another company?
I'm assuming that the current team will still be running it?

John,

I wasn't invited to the party, so there is zero chance I'll be going back.

Well that sucks. I have a party for you ;)

Who actually bought NHT?
Was it insiders or another company?
I'm assuming that the current team will still be running it?

No, current team is out. Chris Byrne founded the company, John Johnsen has been there as long as I've been there. They found an investor, I guess to partner up.

What's the old saying - "If a bullfrog had wings, he wouldn't bump his @$$ when he jumps"?

That's what I feel about all your ID nonsense. ID is a bump on a frog's ass, at least for the foreseeable future. What is big for ID is tiny for B&M. I don't know why you have problems understanding this. NHT is an *engineering* driven company, not a BS driven company that makes people think they're something they're not. How is a company that doesn't know how to BS people *possibly* going to grow up against guys like Mark from AV123 and David what's his name from Ascend etc, etc? They can't. Or, more importantly, won't. So I don't know why you persist with all these fantasies.

I guarantee you your chain of NHT stores would never even see the end of the first year before at least 90% of them closed the doors. Sure, there may be a few here and there that might could actually make it in bigger areas where there currently isn't an NHT dealer, like Atlanta for example, but that's about it, and you know it too even if you won't admit it.

Maybe but I'd try it, sure beats having a hole in the market. Besides, a lot of the trend is for distribution offices in big cities where installers pull up and buy inwalls, TVs, etc for their installs. But I'm sure you know all that because you understand AV retailing so well. With service being the main way of making money, companies are setting up distribution/demo facilities that allow small guys to come in, show a customer what they can do, then come out and install it. So, it's not just an "Apple Store" or retail shop, it's a whole new method of getting goods to the consumer, who now often buys whatever the installer tells them to buy. That's why the new store we're doing is a demonstration of what we can *do*, not a demonstration of what we *sell*. Just like my friend's quickly growing company acts as both the wholesale warehouse for the builders *and* the show room for the builder's customers. That's how the future is going. Of course, there's not much greater chance of this happening than ID, but it's a better way to go and working for a whole lot of other industries - lighting, windows, floors, etc.

As a small business owner, you kept repeatedly getting burglarized because you were obviously either too cheap, or simply not bright enough to get at least some kind of basic security system, but yet you claim to have the business knowledge and acumen to grow NHT 5 to 10 times it's current size. Once again, OKayyyyy ... whatever ... :p ;)

Wow, you really are a dick, aren't you? Ignore mode on. I'm done. Period. Bye Mark.

mark,
That last one was pretty harsh.
We got burglarized several times when I had video stores.
So we put accordion bars across the windows and then they started stealing from us in the day.
if they want it bad enough they will get you.

There's a switch under the front near the lights. Usually takes a small screwdriver if you have big fingers.

Thanks.


Seriously, you're reading into things. The fact that *Bose* is hiring people for factory jobs means they must be building something themselves. It has nothing to do with Jack [maybe?] needing a job. Nothing at all. Even if Roger is capable of thinking it, he certainly wouldn't say it. He's too polite for that.

Okay, I'll retract the nomination. Further, I apologise to Mr. Dressler for misinterpreting his comment and the therefore unecessary insults regarding his anatomical makeup.

That's what I feel about all your ID nonsense. ID is a bump on a frog's ass, at least for the foreseeable future. What is big for ID is tiny for B&M. I don't know why you have problems understanding this.

And again, I don't know why you have a problem understanding that you have to go by NHT's specific current B&M situation, not B&W's or any other brand's. And even you must admit that NHT's is not exactly in what you would call a great position, and even less so right now than it was even 2 or 3 months ago.

I have repeatedly said that if they can't grow the dealer network to at least a semi-national level, then maybe it is time to consider ID rather than continue current "business as usual". You seem to have trouble grasping that.

NHT is an *engineering* driven company, not a BS driven company that makes people think they're something they're not. How is a company that doesn't know how to BS people *possibly* going to grow up against guys like Mark from AV123 and David what's his name from Ascend etc, etc? They can't. Or, more importantly, won't. So I don't know why you persist with all these fantasies.

And if you think that they will now likewise start competing as they should with other B&M brands they also have to go up against, well, then who's having the fantasies now? ;) I'd like to ultimately be proven wrong about this, but frankly, I'll believe it when I see it.

Maybe but I'd try it, sure beats having a hole in the market. Besides, a lot of the trend is for distribution offices in big cities where installers pull up and buy inwalls, TVs, etc for their installs. But I'm sure you know all that because you understand AV retailing so well. With service being the main way of making money, companies are setting up distribution/demo facilities that allow small guys to come in, show a customer what they can do, then come out and install it. So, it's not just an "Apple Store" or retail shop, it's a whole new method of getting goods to the consumer, who now often buys whatever the installer tells them to buy. That's why the new store we're doing is a demonstration of what we can *do*, not a demonstration of what we *sell*. Just like my friend's quickly growing company acts as both the wholesale warehouse for the builders *and* the show room for the builder's customers. That's how the future is going. Of course, there's not much greater chance of this happening than ID, but it's a better way to go and working for a whole lot of other industries - lighting, windows, floors, etc.

Wow, you really are a dick, aren't you? Ignore mode on. I'm done. Period. Bye Mark.

Wow! I'm honored! Am I the first person in AVS history to actually turn the tables on John Ashman and make his ignore list when it's usually the other way around (after he conveniently responded to my post first of course)? :D;):p

mark,
That last one was pretty harsh.
We got burglarized several times when I had video stores.
So we put accordion bars across the windows and then they started stealing from us in the day.
if they want it bad enough they will get you.

True, but why make it as easy for them as possible after hours?

Just spoke with John Johnsen. Looks like there's going to be a gradual transition on paper, but they're moved in and taken over, which is cool. John sounds the most enthused I've heard him in years, like a monkey has been lifted off his back. I imagine Chris feels the same. It sounds like there's going to be some dramatic changes in how NHT operates and the products it fields.

Just spoke with John Johnsen. Looks like there's going to be a gradual transition on paper, but they're moved in and taken over, which is cool. John sounds the most enthused I've heard him in years, like a monkey has been lifted off his back. I imagine Chris feels the same. It sounds like there's going to be some dramatic changes in how NHT operates and the products it fields.

Well, that sounds like potentially good news. Shame about Jack not being invited back, though.

Any chance the Classic prices will be rolled back(really wishful thinking)?
Or perhaps NHT may replace with a line that is more economical to build?
I think they went to a price point that was not sustainable.
look at C2 pricing vs. SuperOne vs. SB3.

Well, that sounds like potentially good news. Shame about Jack not being invited back, though.

Yeah, I didn't want to get into that with them. That's all their business.

Any chance the Classic prices will be rolled back(really wishful thinking)?
Or perhaps NHT may replace with a line that is more economical to build?
I think they went to a price point that was not sustainable.
look at C2 pricing vs. SuperOne vs. SB3.

From our conversation, every aspect of the business model, including those mentioned above are being examined.

Yeah, I didn't want to get into that with them. That's all their business.

Yep. I'm sure they have their reasons, whether they be good or not. Big shoes to fill, regardless!

Any chance the Classic prices will be rolled back(really wishful thinking)?
Or perhaps NHT may replace with a line that is more economical to build?
I think they went to a price point that was not sustainable.
look at C2 pricing vs. SuperOne vs. SB3.

If price was an issue, it will likely never get any lower than it was for the recent SD closeout prices. Maybe as low one day when the black Classics are eventually closed out, but prolly not lower. You can still find SD Fours, Tens and 2Cs, but that's about all that's left at this point.

As for the Two vs the SB3, the Two is a better overall speaker IMO in pretty much everything except for bass extension. The cabinets and 6.5" drivers were obviously significantly upgraded, and I've heard that even the crossovers were too. ;)

From what I can tell, the A1 comes with a "Dual Subwoofer Adapter" that would allow me to connect two sets of speaker cables to a single A1 to power the lowers of each of my Classic 4's.

What kind of cable connections does the adapter work with? I've already invested in 2 sets of Audioquest CV-6's that have banana plug ends. Will the adapter accomodate banana plugs?

Are guys saying the C2 is basically the same as the SB3?
With less bass because of the smaller cabinet?
The SB3 went really low, down to 39Hz if I remember correctly.

From what I can tell, the A1 comes with a "Dual Subwoofer Adapter" that would allow me to connect two sets of speaker cables to a single A1 to power the lowers of each of my Classic 4's.

What kind of cable connections does the adapter work with? I've already invested in 2 sets of Audioquest CV-6's that have banana plug ends. Will the adapter accomodate banana plugs?

Its nothing special really, just a screw type, dual bananna plug that you can buy anywhere. There is a picture of it in the Evolution manual that you can download from NHT.

I would say that it may be a little tight to get two 12g wires under each side, but it could be done.

Brian

Are guys saying the C2 is basically the same as the SB3?
With less bass because of the smaller cabinet?
The SB3 went really low, down to 39Hz if I remember correctly.

No, the only thing the SB3 and Two have in common is the tweeter. Cabinets, crossover, midbass are all substantially different and better on the Two. Of course, the SB3 did really deep bass that was really cool.

Its nothing special really, just a screw type, dual bananna plug that you can buy anywhere. There is a picture of it in the Evolution manual that you can download from NHT.

I would say that it may be a little tight to get two 12g wires under each side, but it could be done.

Brian

Thanks Brian - It looks like it's made to take bare wire. My problem is that I have these factory terminated cables with nice banana plug ends. I would rather not take those ends apart. Anyone know if there are any adapters that would allow me to connect two banana plugs into a single plug connection?

^^^ FWIW, IMO it is well worth it to spring for another A1, or to just get a 2 channel power amp with at least 150 watts or so per channel instead for the Fours subs. Otherwise, everything below 125 Hz will be in mono.

Thanks Brian - It looks like it's made to take bare wire. My problem is that I have these factory terminated cables with nice banana plug ends. I would rather not take those ends apart. Anyone know if there are any adapters that would allow me to connect two banana plugs into a single plug connection?

I would have to go look, but they may actually be the type designed to accept a male banana. Some are, some are not. I will have to have a look behind my rack and see.

Worst case, you could actually just buy a dual banana from any number of places, that does allow you to "stack" them.

Brian

^^^ FWIW, IMO it is well worth it to spring for another A1, or to just get a 2 channel power amp with at least 150 watts or so per channel instead for the Fours subs. Otherwise, everything below 125 Hz will be in mono.

Thanks Mark - I was trying to keep it cheap at first. Add 1 A1, and then perhaps a 2nd one later. But if I were to have 2 A1's, then I was thinking maybe I it would be better to just find a 5.1 channel amp, and power my 2 Classic 4's and my 3C. That would also allow me to have the X2 split the L/R signal rather than have my Onkyo 805 do it.

decisions, decisions. thanks for the comments.

I would have to go look, but they may actually be the type designed to accept a male banana.

Heh heh, heh heh, he said male banana, heh heh.

I will have to have a look behind my rack and see.

Heh heh, heh heh, he said rack, heh heh

:D

Heh heh, heh heh, he said male banana, heh heh.

Heh heh, heh heh, he said rack, heh heh

:D

Simmer down, Beavis......:D

Brian

PS: Why aren't YOU answering the question......your the freakin' dope dealer keeping us all strung out on this stuff!;)

Hey, you're doing great, why work when others are jumping in?

Got a new place to sell the dope. Will be doing remodeling this weekend if there's electricity. Crap, forgot to call about electricity.......

Hello,

I just purchased a pair of Classic 4s, the 3C and am hunting for a pair of 3s, all in SD. Wish me luck on the 3s. The SD clearance prices were phenominal!

I am looking for some newb advice, if you don't mind.

I want to drive the 4s with a Yam RX-V1800, can't afford the X2 and A1s yet. I will be using a combo of cables from Impact and Bluejean for connections. My main priority is audio. The 1800 fits my $900 or less financial sweet spot with great reliability and sound. The living room is approximately 15x13x8. My biggest concern, other than getting 3s in SD is the limited size of the room compared to the 4s.

As to the AVR, and anything else, do you guys see any major problems? This is my first foray into audiophilia, having graduated from HTiB, appreciate your thread.

I've been looking for SD Classic 3's for 2 months now as well. Looks like I will have to get the black ones or another pair of SD classic 4's which I originally ordered but a certain etailer screwed up my order. The three's would be much easier to get to Europe though, where I'll be eventually taking all this stuff to...

I have the classic 5 channel setup. (A pair of 4s, pair of 3s, and one 3C.

I tried to use a Pioneer vsx84 to drive the 4s and the bass was muddy. I switched to a Crown XLS402 and the difference was night and day. It was a crisper sound.

My current configuration replaces the Pioneer with an X2 and Emotiva IPS-1 amp. I still use the Crown XLS402 to drive to 4s subs. The X2 tuned the bass a little. But, running all the upper range drivers with the IPS-1 noticably unified the sound stage. I think the Crown and Pioneer amps simply made the speakers sound different.

Cheers,

Not having a lot of luck with finding Classic 3s in SD. Being partial to the color, how insane would it be to have 4s for the fronts AND rears??? My 15x13x8 room is too small, but....

If you can get them, why not? They obviously aren't costing a lot more than the Threes in black. It actually could make the bass tighter and cleaner in a small room by distributing the bass and helping get a little more room mode cancellation.

OK I'm sounding like the NHT fanguy that I suppose I am having a total of 20 NHT speaker boxes in 4 systems, yet, I was shocked how much better my bedroom system here in Cape Town sounded when I added a 3C even with bad placement.

I'd been running a pair of Classic threes in front with a pair of IC4's only since I have no room or absolute need for a sub in this smallish bedroom. I found the 3C SD "free" and figured, hell, lets stick it on top of the wardrobe anyway. That's 5' higher than the pair near the end of my bed and maybe 6' past the end of my bed. Tilted down, in this acoustically hard room it sounds incredibly well integrated for music.

Now thinking of replacing my ST4's, SB3's, SC2 (I think) in my place in Kansas City with the Classic series. OUCH, funds wise.

what would be a better match for a classic 3 and 3c as front for surrounds:
another pair of 3s or classic az's or maybe even m5s. in going back over this thread it seems that the az is a popular choice but with time listening choices change. would like to hear from those that have them with the classic 3s as fronts. i missed the opportunity on some m6s so i am going to get some surrounds and amp.

what would be a better match for a classic 3 and 3c as front for surrounds:
another pair of 3s or classic az's or maybe even m5s. in going back over this thread it seems that the az is a popular choice but with time listening choices change. would like to hear from those that have them with the classic 3s as fronts. i missed the opportunity on some m6s so i am going to get some surrounds and amp.

Identical speakers all around is the ideal set-up. I have 6 Classic 3's and a Classic 3C center. After having this set-up for almost a year now, I have absolutely no desire to upgrade, even though I still audition speakers, usually far more expensive than what I paid for mine. I hope NHT survives and maintains it's current level of excellence. Seriously great speakers for a modest amount of money.

Ben

I was planning on sneaking my Classic 3's (which I don't have) one by one through the customs in my luggage. Can't see that happening with the 4's! This would save me cargo and customs duties, which is another 30-40% additional to the costs of the actual speakers... Maybe I'll just take a pair of black Classic 2's from my all Classic 2 + 2C set-up and replace them with Absolute Zero's. Hmm the choices to make, I have the office full of NHT boxes stacked up to almost the ceiling and I'm still considering buying more....

If you can get them, why not? They obviously aren't costing a lot more than the Threes in black. It actually could make the bass tighter and cleaner in a small room by distributing the bass and helping get a little more room mode cancellation.

LOL! That much speaker, I'd blow the roof off. I'm still coming from a 10 yr old Aiwa 5.1 system.

John, you do bring up a point. I have contemplated what to put in back, but have been worried that the extra 4s would create too much low end (and overpower the capacity/capability of the Yam 1800). Whereas, the 3s would help "lift" the sound. Newb alert and all, but your impression would be appreciated and could you elaborate on your above quote?

... I am having a total of 20 NHT speaker boxes in 4 systems, ...

Hmm the choices to make, I have the office full of NHT boxes stacked up to almost the ceiling and I'm still considering buying more....

:D

LOL! That much speaker, I'd blow the roof off. I'm still coming from a 10 yr old Aiwa 5.1 system.

John, you do bring up a point. I have contemplated what to put in back, but have been worried that the extra 4s would create too much low end (and overpower the capacity/capability of the Yam 1800). Whereas, the 3s would help "lift" the sound. Newb alert and all, but your impression would be appreciated and could you elaborate on your above quote?

There really isn't all that much low frequency info back there to begin with, so I really wouldn't worry about it too much if I were you. Even though it would mostly just be overkill, if you can go ahead and get another pair of Fours for about the same price as a pair of Threes and stands to set them on, why not? ;)

what would be a better match for a classic 3 and 3c as front for surrounds:
another pair of 3s or classic az's or maybe even m5s. in going back over this thread it seems that the az is a popular choice but with time listening choices change. would like to hear from those that have them with the classic 3s as fronts. i missed the opportunity on some m6s so i am going to get some surrounds and amp.

Stick with Threes or AZs for surrounds, as M5s would be a big mismatch for your front stage.

Hello,

I just purchased a pair of Classic 4s, the 3C and am hunting for a pair of 3s, all in SD. Wish me luck on the 3s. The SD clearance prices were phenominal!

I am looking for some newb advice, if you don't mind.

I want to drive the 4s with a Yam RX-V1800, can't afford the X2 and A1s yet. I will be using a combo of cables from Impact and Bluejean for connections. My main priority is audio. The 1800 fits my $900 or less financial sweet spot with great reliability and sound. The living room is approximately 15x13x8. My biggest concern, other than getting 3s in SD is the limited size of the room compared to the 4s.

As to the AVR, and anything else, do you guys see any major problems? This is my first foray into audiophilia, having graduated from HTiB, appreciate your thread.

Do you plan on listening to music any? If you do, FWIW, I would suggest something other than a Yamaha AVR.

As always though, YMMV. ;)

Yes, music is the main concern. If you know of anything not above $900 that would be able to handle 1.3 HDMI and would sound better, please let me know. You guys know more about this than I do.

I have contemplated a 3.0 system and getting a better receiver, but I would really like to have a full 5 channels in SD. To do that, something has to give and it's the receiver. At my pricepoint of $900 the Yamaha 1800 seems the best (Denon and Onkyo are having issues, Sony didn't sound that good and people just don't seem as impressed with the Pioneer 92). I do want to have 1.3. Later I can add an amp, or the X2/A1 combo.

Yes, music is the main concern. If you know of anything not above $900 that would be able to handle 1.3 HDMI and would sound better, please let me know. You guys know more about this than I do.

I have contemplated a 3.0 system and getting a better receiver, but I would really like to have a full 5 channels in SD. To do that, something has to give and it's the receiver. At my pricepoint of $900 the Yamaha 1800 seems the best (Denon and Onkyo are having issues, Sony didn't sound that good and people just don't seem as impressed with the Pioneer 92). I do want to have 1.3. Later I can add an amp, or the X2/A1 combo.

The Emotiva DMR-1 I think it is 976.00 not 1.3 but from what I have read it is a very good receiver. In fact I am looking at it really hard because of the 40% off next genaration stuff from emotiva and the dmr-1 would go to a second system.(I want to be like Mark more than one NHT system my 2 to his 10) Go to emotive.com and take the link to the emotiva lounge.
Allen

I have read a lot about Emotiva and would love to pounce on their deals, but really want HD sound and 1.3.

I have read a lot about Emotiva and would love to pounce on their deals, but really want HD sound and 1.3.

Pure speculation, but I think the Emotiva without HDMI 1.3 would sound better than the Yammy with 1.3. My move from an Onkyo to an NAD made a bigger improvement than my upgrade from SuperAudio to Classics.

People who have had more experience with HD audio can feel free to disagree with me... now.

what would be a better match for a classic 3 and 3c as front for surrounds:
another pair of 3s or classic az's or maybe even m5s. in going back over this thread it seems that the az is a popular choice but with time listening choices change. would like to hear from those that have them with the classic 3s as fronts. i missed the opportunity on some m6s so i am going to get some surrounds and amp.

Just curious what your sub is? Because, if you have a single 10 or 12 another option would be to consider the AZs instead of 3s as surrounds and then get a 2d sub with the money you save (not sure if the $299 and $399 sub deals are still going though). Or put the money into electronics. Or go 7:1 with AZs. I don't know which would produce the best sound for you, but just some things to consider.

Just curious what your sub is? Because, if you have a single 10 or 12 another option would be to consider the AZs instead of 3s as surrounds and then get a 2d sub with the money you save (not sure if the $299 and $399 sub deals are still going though). Or put the money into electronics. Or go 7:1 with AZs. I don't know which would produce the best sound for you, but just some things to consider.

I've been perfectly content with using AZs as surrounds. The 3 is undoubtedly a better match, but I'm not as picky about surround as I am about 2 channel, so for me it made sense to go with the cheaper option. Also the layout of my room doesn't allow for great placement of the rear speakers anyway, so I don't think the 3 would have given me much of an advantage.

Just depends on your priorities. 3s are preferable, AZs are competent and may provide a satisfying experience for you.

Pure speculation, but I think the Emotiva without HDMI 1.3 would sound better than the Yammy with 1.3. My move from an Onkyo to an NAD made a bigger improvement than my upgrade from SuperAudio to Classics.

People who have had more experience with HD audio can feel free to disagree with me... now.

Oh, I agree with the Emotiva, but I am going to be full HD this year (AVR, Cable, TV, DVR, HD-DVD, etc) and want to be on the same page format wise. Later, I will move up with the X2 and A1s from NHT.

The AZC is now up on the site:

http://nhthifi.com/current/index1.html

I wonder if the AZ tower version will see the light of day now. :confused:

Just curious what your sub is? Because, if you have a single 10 or 12 another option would be to consider the AZs instead of 3s as surrounds and then get a 2d sub with the money you save (not sure if the $299 and $399 sub deals are still going though). Or put the money into electronics. Or go 7:1 with AZs. I don't know which would produce the best sound for you, but just some things to consider.

I've been perfectly content with using AZs as surrounds. The 3 is undoubtedly a better match, but I'm not as picky about surround as I am about 2 channel, so for me it made sense to go with the cheaper option. Also the layout of my room doesn't allow for great placement of the rear speakers anyway, so I don't think the 3 would have given me much of an advantage.

Just depends on your priorities. 3s are preferable, AZs are competent and may provide a satisfying experience for you.

Plus 1 on each quote. Surrounds, IMO, just aren't nearly as critical as mains for 2 channel music, the CC speaker for movies, or the sub system for either or both.

I am also happy with AZ's in the rear (no not like that:p)
Along with sound, size and wife approval are also factors. The AZ's are small and less noticable....

Hi All,
Thanks to John ive got an X2 on the way for my Fours. My idea is to bi-amp with a class d stereo amp to the 10s and then a tube or tube-hybrid to the mids and highs. Does this sound like something doable? Thens theres a question about power...is a 100wpc to the bass drivers adequate? I do like to listen to some music rather loud. What minimum amp power should I consider for the mids and highs? So many questions...

Regards,
Ricky

Just curious what your sub is? Because, if you have a single 10 or 12 another option would be to consider the AZs instead of 3s as surrounds and then get a 2d sub with the money you save (not sure if the $299 and $399 sub deals are still going though). Or put the money into electronics. Or go 7:1 with AZs. I don't know which would produce the best sound for you, but just some things to consider.

i have dual u1s so i'm covered in that dept. i am going to get an emotiva amp because the receiver i have shuts down when i get within sniffing range of reference level. like MATTWARDFH i'm not as picky with surrounds unless you think i am getting ready to make a mistake. i know the az's are wall mountable (are the 3s?) so what mounts would you recommend.

Plus 1 on each quote. Surrounds, IMO, just aren't nearly as critical as mains for 2 channel music, the CC speaker for movies, or the sub system for either or both.

Your logic has brought me around to not going for the 4s as rears(despite the incredible price on the SD color and because they would be way over the budget). Thanks for the reality check.

SO, YOUR ADVICE:

Either go for the 2s as rears in black (no SD exists in the bookshelves), or

Put the money into electronics;
Better receiver or separates with 1.3
Or the X2/A1 combo to run the 4s with 3 Center???

I have read a lot about Emotiva and would love to pounce on their deals, but really want HD sound and 1.3.

I understand your pain here. If you get the DMR-1 now you will get 40% off of their next genration stuff. I think I read NO DMR-2 but you could add an amp later as money allows then pick up a pre/amp later. I don't think the 40% off has a deadline just able to use it on the next genaration.
Allen

Your logic has brought me around to not going for the 4s as rears(despite the incredible price on the SD color and because they would be way over the budget). Thanks for the reality check.

SO, YOUR ADVICE:

Either go for the 2s as rears in black (no SD exists in the bookshelves), or

Put the money into electronics;
Better receiver or separates with 1.3
Or the X2/A1 combo to run the 4s with 3 Center???

If it's better electronics vs. surrounds, I say go better electronics. Adding surround speakers later will be a cheaper and easier upgrade. Say you pay $900 for a receiver now but decide later on that you needed a $1300 receiver. It will cost you more than $400 to upgrade because you won't be able to sell the old receiver for $900.

But if you buy the $1300 receiver now, you can easily buy $400 surrounds whenever, no waste.

When it comes to better electronics vs. biamping, that's a tougher call. I still say you should buy the better electronics up front and you can expand later, but there's a compelling argument that you may not need them if you biamp your 4s.

IMHO, the AZs are a better sonic match for the 3s (or 4s) than the 2s are. That is, if the front channel is 3s or 4s, the either 3s or AZs would be better for the surrounds than using the 2s for the surrounds.

While the 3s are theoretically wall-mountable, they use the identical mounting brackets as the AZs, and those brackets barely hold the AZs without them sagging. If you want to wall mount, I'd recommend AZs or in-walls (IW4s use the same tweeters as 3s but are large and expensive. Does anyone have experience listening to IW2s or IW3s as comparison to 3s or 4s in the front channel?)

Peter

Your logic has brought me around to not going for the 4s as rears(despite the incredible price on the SD color and because they would be way over the budget). Thanks for the reality check.

SO, YOUR ADVICE:

Either go for the 2s as rears in black (no SD exists in the bookshelves), or

Put the money into electronics;
Better receiver or separates with 1.3
Or the X2/A1 combo to run the 4s with 3 Center???

IMHO, the AZs are a better sonic match for the 3s (or 4s) than the 2s are. That is, if the front channel is 3s or 4s, the either 3s or AZs would be better for the surrounds than using the 2s for the surrounds.

Peter

I'm new to all this, but just looking at the specs, I would have thought the 2s, over the AZs, would match up better to 4s and the 3 Center??? Please elaborate.

(The AZs would save some cash, though and still allow for a receiver upgrade)

i have dual u1s so i'm covered in that dept. i am going to get an emotiva amp because the receiver i have shuts down when i get within sniffing range of reference level. like MATTWARDFH i'm not as picky with surrounds unless you think i am getting ready to make a mistake. i know the az's are wall mountable (are the 3s?) so what mounts would you recommend.

I haven't mounted my AZs yet (no, not that way) b/c my basement isn't finished yet, but I'll probably go with what NHT recommends, which I believe is the Omnimount 10 or 20 (it's on the site somewhere - for sure in the PDF owner's manual online). I think the 3s may be wall-mountable, but they're pretty big for that IMO.

I'm new to all this, but just looking at the specs, I would have thought the 2s, over the AZs, would match up better to 4s and the 3 Center??? Please elaborate.

(The AZs would save some cash, though and still allow for a receiver upgrade)

Somewhere way back in this thread Jack wrote that the AZs were better suited than the 2s as surrounds for the 3s.

BTW, just out of curiosity I'd like to hear some opinions from the experts here on whether they'd match Twos with the AZC or the 3C in a HT system. Or maybe the answer is that the NHT HT systems are AZ, 3 and 3, and the 2s should be used in pairs only (with or without a sub). I initially bought 4 Twos with a 3C and traded the Twos in for 3s and AZs, partly b/c I needed smaller surrounds, and partly b/c of he driver mismatch issue.

Somewhere way back in this thread Jack wrote that the AZs were better suited than the 2s as surrounds for the 3s.

Yep, something to the effect of the AZ would have better dispersion as a surround due to it's narrower baffle.

BTW, just out of curiosity I'd like to hear some opinions from the experts here on whether they'd match Twos with the AZC or the 3C in a HT system. Or maybe the answer is that the NHT HT systems are AZ, 3 and 3, and the 2s should be used in pairs only (with or without a sub). I initially bought 4 Twos with a 3C and traded the Twos in for 3s and AZs, partly b/c I needed smaller surrounds, and partly b/c of he driver mismatch issue.

If you look at the AZC's page, it clearly says they feel that the 3-way design of the 2C is superior, and that the AZC was created for the price point bracket only:

http://nhthifi.com/current/products/ht/abcenter.html

Interestingly enough, the marketing and/or management geniuses there have apparently decided to release the new AZC in the now discontinued SD finish as well. :rolleyes:

Yep, not retaining the engineering department headed up by Jack, the one and only dept. there that seemed like they actually knew what they were doing, really bodes well for the future of this brand. :(:o

Mark,

Would you be able to comment on the better receiver vs. X2/A1 combo for the 4s when you get a chance? Thanks.

Hi All,
Thanks to John ive got an X2 on the way for my Fours. My idea is to bi-amp with a class d stereo amp to the 10s and then a tube or tube-hybrid to the mids and highs. Does this sound like something doable? Thens theres a question about power...is a 100wpc to the bass drivers adequate? I do like to listen to some music rather loud. What minimum amp power should I consider for the mids and highs? So many questions...

Regards,
Ricky

Since the upper frequency drivers you will be powering are only above 125 Hz, not all that much power is really needed. 50 watts will be more than adequate for most situations, especially if they're tubes. :cool:

Mark,

Would you be able to comment on the better receiver vs. X2/A1 combo for the 4s when you get a chance? Thanks.

I would highly recommend bi-amping the Fours with an X2 and A1s, for either movies or music. And when you do so, you will not need an AVR with as much power then.

For a newbie, I'd recommend something like a HK 247, or the comparable current Marantz model with the X2/A1s, then maybe later adding a multi channel power amp like the one from Emotiva that is 125 watts x 6 for less than $500, and then you can always add a new AVR to use as a pre/pro (if not a dedicated pre/pro) later on down the line as features and formats evolve. The power amp and X2/A1s will never become obsolete though. ;)

The AZ, Two and Three all use the same Omnimount 20 series bracket for wall mounting. AZs before serial number 2701 used the Omnimount 10 series bracket.

The decision to build the AC in both Gloss Black and SD was made a long time ago. Once you have the product it is difficult to refinish the cabinets. Also there are quite a few AZ owners out there with SD finishes that may want a smaller/cheaper center channel.

Matt and Mark,

Thank you for the advice. I will hold off on the AZs as surrounds for a later date and go for X2/A1 to get the most out of the 4s. With the 4s and 3C, I would guess I will have plenty of musical and HT capabilities.

Matt and Mark,

Thank you for the advice. I will hold off on the AZs as surrounds for a later date and go for X2/A1 to get the most out of the 4s. With the 4s and 3C, I would guess I will have plenty of musical and HT capabilities.

Glad to help. Let us know how it works out!

Jack, do you think that there's any chance the tower version of the AZ previously mentioned will actually come out?

I think such a model might potentially do well from a sales standpoint. It would prolly be as close to the VT-1.4 as anything since. :cool:

Somewhere way back in this thread Jack wrote that the AZs were better suited than the 2s as surrounds for the 3s.

Yep, something to the effect of the AZ would have better dispersion as a surround due to it's narrower baffle.

There's also a difference in the tone of the speakers. The AZs just sound more like the 3s with less bass and a little less accurate, while the 2s have better base than the AZs but, in my opinion, sound different.

Peter

Of those, only Soundstage's measurements are 'anaechoic' ..the other two are quasi-anaechoic, as I would presume are Nousaine's. Anaechoic chambers are not exactly easy to come by.

Late to the party, but I see Tom has come in for some nice comments from the usual suspects. I find it fascinating that his consumer speaker measurements are all over the lot, but lo and behold using the same methods, his pro reviews (in Pro Review and also including the consumer Genelecs in the last Sound and Vision) show remarkably similiar (and very excellent measurements). Of course, the pro divisions tend to be well more professional than the talking heads in consumerville.:rolleyes: I bought the JBL Pro LSR 6325's based on his review and they are excellent. I also had it independently tested by a third party and they raved about it as well. He must of just been lucky.:rolleyes:

Since the upper frequency drivers you will be powering are only above 125 Hz, not all that much power is really needed. 50 watts will be more than adequate for most situations, especially if they're tubes. :cool:

Thanks Mark. Do I need to consider whether or not I bi-amp horizontally or vertically?

Regards,
Ricky

I am ready to buy a pair of M6 to complement an M6 center. And at current prices hard to let them pass.... Sub is a Velodyne DD18. The 3.3 would move back to serve as surrounds replacing 2.9 that would move to terrace and bedroom after summer. Makes sense to go with the M6's? For the time being its more HT than music and the room also doesn't do justice to the 3.3. I live outside the USA with no dealer in a 2.000 mile radius.
What internet dealer would you recommend, for worldwide shipping of a pair of M6's? Maybe shipment within the USA would also be possible. Any suggestion or sharing of experiences would be appreciated.
Keep it up NHT!

Would it be negatively affect the sound to sit a 3C directly on a shelf without using the supplied "legs" underneath the speaker?

Our contractor will soon finalize our TV/center channel layout. The TV will be mounted in a depression in the wall, and 3C will sit on a shelf in another cubby just below the TV. I believe from reading this thread that it's actually preferrable to sit the 3C within an enclosure, but is it okay to rest the speaker on a shelf without using the supplied legs? Believe it or not, we could use the extra 1/2" of height we'd save by not using the legs. Thanks.

Was NHT 3.3 ever available in white color finish?

The M3.3 was only ever made in the brushed black Arpa laminate finish.

Would it be negatively affect the sound to sit a 3C directly on a shelf without using the supplied "legs" underneath the speaker?

Our contractor will soon finalize our TV/center channel layout. The TV will be mounted in a depression in the wall, and 3C will sit on a shelf in another cubby just below the TV. I believe from reading this thread that it's actually preferrable to sit the 3C within an enclosure, but is it okay to rest the speaker on a shelf without using the supplied legs? Believe it or not, we could use the extra 1/2" of height we'd save by not using the legs. Thanks.I wouldn't put the cabinet right on the shelf. Whether you need those exact legs or not - you definitely need something to help keep the energy from transferring from the cabinet to the shelf; and to keep the bottom from getting scratched on this finish.

Mark, I tried to PM, but your mailbox is full. I have a set up question.

I wouldn't put the cabinet right on the shelf. Whether you need those exact legs or not - you definitely need something to help keep the energy from transferring from the cabinet to the shelf; and to keep the bottom from getting scratched on this finish.

Makes sense. Thanks.

Ive got a question about speaker matching...looks like were gonna convert out living room back into a home theater. I currently have Classic Fours, sb3s, and sc2 center. Will these speakers blend togethor ok for a 5 channel arrangement? Should I sell off the sc2 and p/u a classic 2 center? Maybe an M5 or M6 center?

Regards,
Ricky

I have been building a system based on the 4s with a 3C for the center and several have stated that the Absolute Zeros would be a good match for the surrounds. The Classic 3s would be great surrounds as well, but depending on room size they would be overkill. You could also spend the money on other stuff.

Ive got a question about speaker matching...looks like were gonna convert out living room back into a home theater. I currently have Classic Fours, sb3s, and sc2 center. Will these speakers blend togethor ok for a 5 channel arrangement? Should I sell off the sc2 and p/u a classic 2 center? Maybe an M5 or M6 center?

Regards,
Ricky

The M3.3 was only ever made in the brushed black Arpa laminate finish.

Jack,

I believe this is incorrect. In fact, I owned a pair of 3.3's in mahogany and have seen the 3.3 in Sycamore too. These maybe were not production units?? I have seen more than a couple though, so maybe they were small runs.

James

Just read a letter from NHT. The Controller, Power5, Power2 and both consumer and professional Xd systems are being discontinued. The A1/X1/X2 will remain available.

Ive got a question about speaker matching...looks like were gonna convert out living room back into a home theater. I currently have Classic Fours, sb3s, and sc2 center. Will these speakers blend togethor ok for a 5 channel arrangement? Should I sell off the sc2 and p/u a classic 2 center? Maybe an M5 or M6 center?

Regards,
Ricky

I have Classic Threes + 3C up front with four SB2s all around and they blend together very well front-to-rear, but the front three across should probably match. If you can get your hands on a Classic center, I think it would be worth it.

I just found a pair of Classic 3s in Special Dark and jumped on the opportunity.

I now have the 4s, 3C and the 3s in SD!

Thank you Derek!


Now eventually, I'll have enough saved back up for some additional ampage.

Just read a letter from NHT. The Controller, Power5, Power2 and both consumer and professional Xd systems are being discontinued. The A1/X1/X2 will remain available.

A moment of silence, please.

I have been building a system based on the 4s with a 3C for the center and several have stated that the Absolute Zeros would be a good match for the surrounds. The Classic 3s would be great surrounds as well, but depending on room size they would be overkill. You could also spend the money on other stuff.

Thanks for the advice!

I have Classic Threes + 3C up front with four SB2s all around and they blend together very well front-to-rear, but the front three across should probably match. If you can get your hands on a Classic center, I think it would be worth it.

Im thinking my sb3s will work for my rears, ive still got my 2.5is...wow, the possibility of running full bandwith on the rears! The sc2 may work fine for the center, although it might look a bit goofy matched up front w/the Classic Fours which are dark and not black gloss.

Jack,

I believe this is incorrect. In fact, I owned a pair of 3.3's in mahogany and have seen the 3.3 in Sycamore too. These maybe were not production units?? I have seen more than a couple though, so maybe they were small runs.

James

You are correct James. Take a look at current ebay item #180205104574 for a look at a pair of 3.3s in sycamore. ;)

They are very clearly 3.3s and not just a pair of 2.9s that the owner mistakenly believes to be 3.3s.

Ive got a question about speaker matching...looks like were gonna convert out living room back into a home theater. I currently have Classic Fours, sb3s, and sc2 center. Will these speakers blend togethor ok for a 5 channel arrangement? Should I sell off the sc2 and p/u a classic 2 center? Maybe an M5 or M6 center?

Regards,
Ricky

Get a 3C, or at least a 2C for Fours, not an M5 or M6.

Just read a letter from NHT. The Controller, Power5, Power2 and both consumer and professional Xd systems are being discontinued. The A1/X1/X2 will remain available.

A moment of silence, please.

Yep. Just think, even if this isn't yet another nail in the coffin and NHT does go on long term in some way, shape, or form, then in all likelihood, they will never again get back to the point that they were at now with the electronics and Xds. :(:mad:

Now, by sheer default, the Four is without a doubt the absolute best consumer speaker NHT still currently offers. :o

There is a very strong possibility that we have now already seen NHT at it's zenith, and everything else might wind up being all downhill from here on out.

James,

If you owned M3.3s in a finish other than black Arpa, then they must have been built during the Wrec-a-ton years when there were only two real NHT employees left (Bill and Jay). Recoton did whatever they wanted during this time. For a year they advertised an "AR" speaker, the 315HO that wasn't even shipping until after the ads stopped. To do this, they just took 100% of NHT's advertising buget for the entire year. When NHT was run by NHT people, products like the M3.3 were sacred and no one would dare change the finish on it. Do you remember if they had serial number plates on the back?

Yep. Just think, even if this isn't yet another nail in the coffin and NHT does go on long term in some way, shape, or form, then in all likelihood, they will never again get back to the point that they were at now with the electronics and Xds. :(:mad:

Now, by sheer default, the Four is without a doubt the absolute best consumer speaker NHT still currently offers. :o

There is a very strong possibility that we have now already seen NHT at it's zenith, and everything else might wind up being all downhill from here on out.

My friend. Long before there was Xd, Evolution, or Classic Dark, there was NHT. They'll be back with a following for their whacky marketing, and their neutral positive speakers, with no compromise.

James,

If you owned M3.3s in a finish other than black Arpa, then they must have been built during the Wrec-a-ton years when there were only two real NHT employees left (Bill and Jay). Recoton did whatever they wanted during this time. For a year they advertised an "AR" speaker, the 315HO that wasn't even shipping until after the ads stopped. To do this, they just took 100% of NHT's advertising buget for the entire year. When NHT was run by NHT people, products like the M3.3 were sacred and no one would dare change the finish on it. Do you remember if they had serial number plates on the back?

They actually did do a batch of real 3.3s in both finishes. I sold a pair of Sycamores here. They had serial numbers and everything. Very pretty, probably would have sold a whole lot more if they'd started off selling them that way. The brushed aluminum look was to women what garlic is to vampires. Especially on those speakers. If NHT had made them in the same cherry finish as the AR303, they would have doubled their sales. That was one of the nicest wood finishes I've seen on a speaker.

AR was making great claims about its AR1 [?] at $2500 and Cary Christie (the guy who designed all the bad sounding Infinities of old and couldn't design his way out of a paper bag), pulled me over at a CES show and said that Bill had personally told him that they were better than the 2.9. I said "well, I find that a little hard to believe", since the best AR speakers couldn't compete with even a SuperTwo. So I run into Bill 10 minutes later at the NHT booth and told him the story and his eyes rolled back in his head and he looked like he was making a conscious effort not to explode and kill the messenger. Then he tells me how, in the middle of critical work for NHT, they pull him off and he spends a week roughing in the crossovers because the speaker just wasn't working as designed, so he gets it sounding "decent for a high efficiency speaker" and he finds a tweeter that doesn't suck (as opposed to the crappy than crap AR tweeter) and figures it might be worth refining. So what happens? They tell him that they don't like what he did and they throw out everything they did and had Cary Christie finish it. He told Recoton that he wouldn't work on another AR project even if they were to fire him (or something to that effect). I laughed and laughed and laughed.....

Mark,

Easy on the optimism. :p :D

Yep. Just think, even if this isn't yet another nail in the coffin and NHT does go on long term in some way, shape, or form, then in all likelihood, they will never again get back to the point that they were at now with the electronics and Xds. :(:mad:

Now, by sheer default, the Four is without a doubt the absolute best consumer speaker NHT still currently offers. :o

There is a very strong possibility that we have now already seen NHT at it's zenith, and everything else might wind up being all downhill from here on out.

For those of you looking for Classic 3s in SD:

There is a distributor network out there that many B&Ms are tied into. Several stores do not actually have NHTs in stock, but order them from the distributors. The SDs are out there in stores, often obscure places that will require some digging. You may, or may not, get a great deal, but at least you could create a matching system.

Good Luck,

Brian

I anyone has the hard-to-find Audiocenter Two (not to be confused with the Classic Two) center channel that I could pry away from you in trade, I have a new in box 40gb PS3 video game system/top-of-the-line blu-ray player to consider in trade.

PM if interested.

Just read a letter from NHT. The Controller, Power5, Power2 and both consumer and professional Xd systems are being discontinued. The A1/X1/X2 will remain available.

Does this mean the Evolution and in wall line of speakers will continue as well since the X1 is required for use with the Evolution subs?

iWS, anyway. Trying to convince them to keep building Evo subs at least. The Vifa drivers in the L5, M5, M6 are no longer made apparently.

iWS, anyway. Trying to convince them to keep building Evo subs at least. The Vifa drivers in the L5, M5, M6 are no longer made apparently.

Better yet, paint 'em gloss black and sell 'em instead of the Classic subs :-)

Sounds like you're talking to them again. Are you back "on the [NHT] wagon", John?

Kind of. But I'm hedging my bets by picking up some other brands. NHT will take years to rebuild and I've been burned way too many times counting on NHT to come through. I'm digging some of the new PSB products and desperately want to get a hold of some Revels at this point. Now that Xd is discontinued, I need a 5-figure flagship. NHT needs to get it together if they want to be the #1 line in anyone's store. I offered up my product and ideas and strategy recommendations *but* I haven't been listened to since 1999 when Bill left, so I doubt anything will dramatically change. If it does, I'll be really surprised and happy about it. If not, well, I'm going to protect myself this time.

Kind of. But I'm hedging my bets by picking up some other brands. NHT will take years to rebuild and I've been burned way too many times counting on NHT to come through. I'm digging some of the new PSB products and desperately want to get a hold of some Revels at this point. Now that Xd is discontinued, I need a 5-figure flagship. NHT needs to get it together if they want to be the #1 line in anyone's store. I offered up my product and ideas and strategy recommendations *but* I haven't been listened to since 1999 when Bill left, so I doubt anything will dramatically change. If it does, I'll be really surprised and happy about it. If not, well, I'm going to protect myself this time.

Sounds smart to me. Carry the products that you love, and the ones that will pay the bills :cool:

Kind of. But I'm hedging my bets by picking up some other brands. NHT will take years to rebuild and I've been burned way too many times counting on NHT to come through. I'm digging some of the new PSB products and desperately want to get a hold of some Revels at this point. Now that Xd is discontinued, I need a 5-figure flagship. NHT needs to get it together if they want to be the #1 line in anyone's store. I offered up my product and ideas and strategy recommendations *but* I haven't been listened to since 1999 when Bill left, so I doubt anything will dramatically change. If it does, I'll be really surprised and happy about it. If not, well, I'm going to protect myself this time.

John what do you think about the PSB Synchrony. How do they compare to the NHT sound.
Allen

A little warmer. Imaging isn't as expansive, midbass is a bit better, midrange is a little smoother and maybe a bit more integrated sounding, more furniture-like. NHTs are the better value clearly. The Synchronies are nice though and more of what the other half wants. The are very groovy sounding and musical with ultra low motor distortion. I'll still have to keep NHT and/or grab Revel for the imaging/resolution people though.

So with the evolution and xD lines dead with which speakers are they moving forward? Is the classic line the only line still in production? Did they kill their "pro" audio (S00/M00) line as well?

They're planning for the classic and in wall speakers (their bread and butter products) to keep the line selling well until they can design a new lineup to replace xD. Hopefully it won't be too long of a wait for new series.

Side note -
They're also now offering closeout pricing on the L5's in silver and anthracite.

I hope someone can offer closeout prices on the components for Xd. I am in need of a 2nd XdW in special dark color. Anyone know where I can find that at a great price?

I may even be willing to consider another full 2.1 Xd system in special dark color if the price is right. This will convert my current setup to 4.2 Xd.

Thanks

Curtis

I read through 50 pages, this thread is long. Anyway, how much worse Two comparing to Three? A friend wants to get rid of them for $300. I hesitated suggesting him to get a $500 sub instead. Will he come back to kick my behind? And, $300 for Two, would you jump on it?

^^^ $300 is a good price on the Twos, provided they are in great condition of course. Look at it this way, you'd be very hard pressed to even find a used pair of SB-3s for that price (they usually go for between $350 to $400 or so per pair, give or take, although I have seen a few pairs sell for $300 to $320 or so), and the Twos IMO are a definite overall step up over the SB-3s. ;)

I personally like them better than Threes too. They are definitely (IMO of course) "warmer" sounding than Threes, and a lot easier on the ears. Adding a good sub and high pass crossing them over would only help improve them just that much more. :cool:

My friend. Long before there was Xd, Evolution, or Classic Dark, there was NHT. They'll be back with a following for their whacky marketing, and their neutral positive speakers, with no compromise.

Mark,

Easy on the optimism. :p :D

I'd like nothing more than to see NHT come back stronger and better than ever, but I think the realist in all of us has to acknowledge the fact that they are taking several steps backwards here, that will all have to be made back up again at some point before even one more forward step from where they very recently were can ever be taken, and trying to do it without Jack and the engineering department they had is not exactly going to be a walk in the park. :o

After hearing some of the horror stories of the Recoton years though, it sounds like if that didn't kill them, then nothing ever will. :p :D

With the recent talk of 3.3s in different finishes, check this one out in Rosewood, with only pair of speaker wire binding posts (IOW- no bi-amping):

http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/cls.pl?spkrfull&1205215640

those 3.3 speakers look huge.

those 3.3 speakers look huge.

Because they are. They are meant to be placed against a wall though, and they are rather thin so they are less visually intrusive than they might be.

I'd love to pick up some of the older NHT speakers (3.3/2.9/etc) but I'm in the middle of the country and I only see them listed as local pickup only and they are for sale on the coasts. :(

Also sad to hear that the evolution line is in fact dead.