Yes, remove the four screws and rotate. It's covered in the manual.

RTFM!!!

Sorry TG--I really did look, I will take a remedial reading class. Maybe I should believe more of my students...no, stupid thought- undergrads have lost the ability to read.

Thanks again

-glenn

Does ListenUp ship to Canada? If so, they have some great prices on L5s right now. ;)

Mark, unfortunately ListenUp will not ship to Canada... but after some searching I was able to find a shop in Toronto that is prepared to come within a few dollars of matching ListenUp's price.

Not very well. Your cheapest, easiest, and simplest solution is to just get another M5 now and put the 3C with the Threes later on when you get them in another system.

Thanks Mark

Umm yes I should have given up on that idea. You are still think an M/L5 system (5.1 with U2) is a better, more accurate, system than the C3 w/SZ or even C3 surrounds (with U2)? Volume wise as well as I recall in your previous post(s). Dispersion?

Looks wise the C's definitly are nicer but I'll go for function over pretty.

This is in my 14X16 or so MBR.

Larry

Gentlemen,

Classic Fours vs MA GS60s
2 ch system only
Trapped & treated room size: 12.5W 15.5L 8.0H
Frontend: Tube CDP, Hybrid 100w Integrated

I am unable to find a dealer in St. Louis to listen to the Fours.
I have listened to the MA GR60s a couple years ago, and I thought they sounded very good.

Your thoughts please...

[quote=mark russ;12929648]James, while I can see your point with where you're trying to go with it here, and can even agree with it to a certain extent, apparently though, you and I simply have two totally different interpretations/definitions of accuracy as it relates here. To me, the more "accurate" speaker is the one with the smoother, flattest response at the listening position, which is not necessarily the one that plays the loudest[lQUOTE]


<<less distortion and compression at any given playback level>>

Mark, I totally understand your point. My point was not just the loud part of Jack's quote, but at ANY given playback level the M6 will have less distortion and compression.

Now, this alone does not determine a flat response at your listening position. Accurate and distortion are different things but do coincide. Depending on the situation, the M6 does have a chance of being more accurate by simply having less distortion at the driver, even if the crossover topology of the M5 is technically flatter. Again, the room IMHO is the bigger factor, and in that case I prefer the speaker with less distortion.

Personal preference is truly what the difference is too, The M5 is mellower and the M6 is bolder. My guess is the majority of music you listen too sounds better on the M5 to you, and vice versa with the M6 to me.

I will concede the M5 is the flatter speaker by design, but will not concede is actually sounds better :D

Gentlemen,

Classic Fours vs MA GS60s
2 ch system only
Trapped & treated room size: 12.5W 15.5L 8.0H
Frontend: Tube CDP, Hybrid 100w Integrated

I am unable to find a dealer in St. Louis to listen to the Fours.
I have listened to the MA GR60s a couple years ago, and I thought they sounded very good.

Your thoughts please...
They don't sound similar. You'd better listen to them first.

Good, but a littled disappointed in the sound on my new T5's.

Until I configured my receiver to add bass to the L/R Front. Doh!!! I notice a lot of improvement over my MA 6's.

No chance to dial them in today, but already very impressed. Thanks to all again.

A question--if anyone has any ideas and a second to respond?

So what do I do with my existing Velodyne sub now that I have the T5's? I am holding off getting a new receiver --as the 905's, 3800's and 3808's all have issues for me--I'm hoping I have the patience to last another 7 months and see the next iteration. I think that some of the new receivers have may have two sub connections.

Short of that, is there a good way to take advantage of the velodyne, expecially for LFE? Can I split the RCA signal somehow and turn on the velodyne for Movies? Generally, I understand more Woofer area/source points equal better low bass.


<Edit> -- did some searching-- see I can just use a y cable to split. Not sure about the sonic effects of two types of subwoofers and using the corssover of the X1 versus the crossover built into the Velodyne. Guess I will just play around with it.
</Edit>

Thanks
-glenn

Hi All,
Well, i've decided to return my pair of L5s. My wife didnt really care for the color and upon retrospect and member advice they probably are not a good match to my Fours and Three center but they sure are being sold at a great price! So now I search for for any pair of Classic monitors in the dark finish to complete my 5 channel rig. As an FYI, Listenup has the NHT Controller, 2-channel amp and 5-channel amp for half off...I p/u the controller and 5 channel amp.

Regards,
Ricky

Speaking of which, did you ever get a chance to check out Queensryche's Operation Mindcrime yet? :cool:

I picked this up and it rocks... I used it as a demo for a couple friends to blow their paradigms of what they thought was good sound--you know, the Bose is best theory ;)

We're getting an entertainment center custom built and I'm wondering if it would be better to put the 3C in it or on top of it? I know to keep it flush and the same height as the Fours just curious as to how putting it in the cabinet will effect the sound.

We're getting an entertainment center custom built and I'm wondering if it would be better to put the 3C in it or on top of it? I know to keep it flush and the same height as the Fours just curious as to how putting it in the cabinet will effect the sound.

Since the Classic Three C isnt ported I would think either method of placement would be fine. If you decide to place the speaker in the cabinet I would try to make sure the front of the speaker is as close to the front edge as possible. Others may chime in here for their thoughts.

Regards,
Ricky

As I remember, the Yammy only had DD and plain old vanilla DPL (I don't even think DTS and DPLII, much less DPLIIx were even out then). It had no usable pre-ins other than only the main L/R channels as I recall, and couldn't be upgraded
Correct. But using it mostly for 2-channel music or for TV, and having another HT downstairs, it's fine.

It had like 100 different DSP soundfields- Church, stadium, Joe's pool hall, etc, and they were mildly amusing at first, but quickly got old. However, I did like a couple of the enhanced movie modes that incorporated a pair of front "effects" speakers mounted high up on the front wall further apart than the main L/R. I never added the 2 "effects" speakers, and don't like the DSP effects (perhaps I'd like them better with the "effects" speakers...)

I also seem to remember it had hook-ups for two different CC speakers. Refresh my memory Peter, does it also have dual sub outputs? Yes, dual sub outputs. But I'm using only 1 A1 so I have it wired through the X1 + using 1 LFE output.

Peter

OK.... I got a couple questions. I now have an Xd 2.2 system and want to get a CENTER and SURROUNDS.... moreso a Center for now. Can you guys suggest a good center that can go with the Xd system? Want something good..... short of buying another Xd system just for the Center.

Any and all feedback appreciated.

Would the M00 work? probably not good but I will defer to you guys.

Curtis

I have a customer with a 6.3 system (original finish) that wants to sell his.

sam.harris@mac.com

I have a customer with a 6.3 system (original finish) that wants to sell his.

sam.harris@mac.com


I am assuming that was directed at me? I have the Special Dark color of the Xd. So the original finish may not go with the color I have. :)

Curtis.

No, it just reminded me to post that.

Good deal, John. Got ya. any suggestions on what I can use for the Center with the Xd 2.2 setup? I need to also purchase a new processor and will be looking to possible pick up the Cary 11a that will be out next month. Maybe I should look at getting the NHT Controller and just use one of the NHT speakers for the Center channel. Will that provide me with the best fit if I use the NHT Controller vs. say the Cary or the Integra DTC9.8?

Too many freaking choices. Just want to get a great front stage setup.

Curtis

Well, the Three C is a bit bright for Xd. Maybe an M5?

If you can grab a Controller Amp while they're getting closed out, it's a great deal, though there will never be an 7.1 PCM audio or room correction upgrade

BTW, here's what I've been up to so you don't think I've been neglecting the forum entirely -

http://forum.adnm.com/viewtopic.php?t=134

or

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=971271

I've noticed the controllers, amp2 and amp5 on that auction site recently.

BTW, here's what I've been up to so you don't think I've been neglecting the forum entirely -

And here we thought you just didn't love us anymore...:)

... but if anyone has a similar set-up perhaps they could advise regarding subs. Is anyone runnning the 4's bi-wired and finding this sufficient for HT listening? My room is about 14 x 24 (family room/kitchen), ugly I know.

The Four's subs should be adequate for HT in a room that size (assuming you don't have extremely high ceilings to push the cubic feet figure up too much), especially if you have them bi-amped with an X2/A1s. :cool:

Thanks Mark

Umm yes I should have given up on that idea. You are still think an M/L5 system (5.1 with U2) is a better, more accurate, system than the C3 w/SZ or even C3 surrounds (with U2)? Volume wise as well as I recall in your previous post(s). Dispersion?

Looks wise the C's definitly are nicer but I'll go for function over pretty.

This is in my 14X16 or so MBR.

Larry

Well, of everyone here on this thread who has said that they have or had both the Classics and Evos at one time or another (who is not a dealer with a "trade up" program), only one has flat out unequivocally endorsed the Classics over the Evos, and he had M6s (not M5s).

It's all subjective of course, but there are two things that are pretty much universal here by owners of both series:

1) - the classics have much broader dispersion/soundstaging

and

2) - the evos, even the M5s, have much better dynamics.

Me personally, I would recommend the Classics over the evos only for certain kinds of music, and even then, it would still depend on the room that they would be going in. As a general rule of thumb, the Classics sound best in a relatively wide and/or well damped room, while the Evos will sound OK in literally any room.

So to answer your question specifically, yes, I feel the M5s are more accurate than the Threes, will definitely play louder, and are a better system for HT, but they definitely will not have as much dispersion as the Threes (which may be either a good thing or a bad thing, depending of course on your room).

<<less distortion and compression at any given playback level>>

Mark, I totally understand your point. My point was not just the loud part of Jack's quote, but at ANY given playback level the M6 will have less distortion and compression.

Yep, I did notice that James. It was also mine as well about the Klipsch KLF-30s when compared to the M6s/T6s too.

Now, this alone does not determine a flat response at your listening position. Accurate and distortion are different things but do coincide. Depending on the situation, the M6 does have a chance of being more accurate by simply having less distortion at the driver, even if the crossover topology of the M5 is technically flatter. Again, the room IMHO is the bigger factor, and in that case I prefer the speaker with less distortion.

I also agree that the room is prolly the single biggest factor of all, even more-so than the speakers, which is why I like a near field listening environment to try take as much of the room out as possible, and the M5s just sound better to me at closer distances to the listening position, which also helps negate some of the M6's ability to play louder and with less strain. In fact, my favorite system of all is my office rig, and it's in a horrible room, but with the L/R main M5s' inside edges only about 4' apart, and the listening position only a little over 6' away from that plane, it not only works, but works very well. :D

Personal preference is truly what the difference is too, The M5 is mellower and the M6 is bolder. My guess is the majority of music you listen too sounds better on the M5 to you, and vice versa with the M6 to me.

I will concede the M5 is the flatter speaker by design, but will not concede is actually sounds better :D

Actually, the M6 is IMO a better rock music speaker than the M5 (or for that matter, the said Klipsch KLF-30s are prolly even better rock music speakers than the M6s/T6s), but I will simply get listening fatigue a whole lot sooner (within about 10 minutes on the Klipschs :o), whereas I can literally listen to the M5s for hours on end if I want to, literally all day long. I can't say that about the M6s. But I can see how some would like the M6s better though. ;)

I picked this up and it rocks... I used it as a demo for a couple friends to blow their paradigms of what they thought was good sound--you know, the Bose is best theory ;)

Mike, I think that is, quite simply, the greatest album of all time ever made by anybody. I realize that's a bold statement, but it would be my pick if I had to name one.

Have you got the remastered version? Also, have you heard OMII yet that came out about 2 years ago? I didn't think it was quite as good as the first, but then again, what could have been, but it sure wasn't bad either. All in all, a great attempt at following up an absoluter masterpiece. :cool:

OK.... I got a couple questions. I now have an Xd 2.2 system and want to get a CENTER and SURROUNDS.... moreso a Center for now. Can you guys suggest a good center that can go with the Xd system? Want something good..... short of buying another Xd system just for the Center.

Any and all feedback appreciated.

Would the M00 work? probably not good but I will defer to you guys.

Curtis

We really need for Jack to weigh in on that one, but short of more Xds, either consumer or pro, if I had to guess, I'd say maybe a 2C for the CC, AZs for surrounds, and a Controller to automatically tie them all together.

So what do I do with my existing Velodyne sub now that I have the T5's? I am holding off getting a new receiver --as the 905's, 3800's and 3808's all have issues for me--I'm hoping I have the patience to last another 7 months and see the next iteration. I think that some of the new receivers have may have two sub connections.

Short of that, is there a good way to take advantage of the velodyne, expecially for LFE? Can I split the RCA signal somehow and turn on the velodyne for Movies? Generally, I understand more Woofer area/source points equal better low bass.


<Edit> -- did some searching-- see I can just use a y cable to split. Not sure about the sonic effects of two types of subwoofers and using the corssover of the X1 versus the crossover built into the Velodyne. Guess I will just play around with it.
</Edit>

Thanks
-glenn


FWIW, Jack has recommended not to add any other kind of sub or subs to Evo subs, and that if you want more, to just add more Evos subs.

Why not just pick up a U2 set to go with the B5s, and then get the 20 Hz mod to one of the X1s? ;)

Pupton has a system like this I believe. I also tried it myself for a while (without the 20 Hz X1 mod at the time though), and liked the results very much. :cool:

I think I'm going to break down and replace my front three with M5s if I can find them for a reasonable price. I've had a VS-2 center for years and loved it -- figured I'd build a satellite system with 5 of them and a really good sub, and methodically snapped them up, one by one, until I had a complete set of 5. Problem is, with my 3.3s upstairs in my two-channel system, it was an unforgiving reference. While the VS-2 makes for a great center, they're positively flat and unmusical as a left and right (and not very ambient in the rear, either). I suspected I might get that result, but figured for a HT-only system, it wouldn't be a big deal -- but now with a higher-end pre/pro and a top sub, the VS-2s are sounding like a weak link.

Anyway, can someone PM or email me with what to expect for street pricing on them, and some good sources? I figure I'll snap up three, and probably a pair of L5s before too long, as well.

I think I'm going to break down and replace my front three with M5s if I can find them for a reasonable price. I've had a VS-2 center for years and loved it -- figured I'd build a satellite system with 5 of them and a really good sub, and methodically snapped them up, one by one, until I had a complete set of 5. Problem is, with my 3.3s upstairs in my two-channel system, it was an unforgiving reference. While the VS-2 makes for a great center, they're positively flat and unmusical as a left and right (and not very ambient in the rear, either). I suspected I might get that result, but figured for a HT-only system, it wouldn't be a big deal -- but now with a higher-end pre/pro and a top sub, the VS-2s are sounding like a weak link.

Anyway, can someone PM or email me with what to expect for street pricing on them, and some good sources? I figure I'll snap up three, and probably a pair of L5s before too long, as well.

Dude, you are missing the boat. ListenUp had them for $239 each, but it looks like they are out now...didn't see them on their website anyway. They are still advertising L5s @ $179 each (which is so cheap it's ridiculous) but ya' better hurry.

I have a feeling some vendors are sitting on these Evolution items and waiting for the Internet fire sales to end before they offer them for sale at more lucrative prices, similar to what they were selling for used 3 months ago. Just speculation, I know

It does look like the M5s are gone, but the L5s are still available. I have five L5s scheduled for delivery today, can't wait to get them set up. Now I'm thinking I should order two more, in case I want to go 7.1. Better hurry on these, at this clearance price I don't think they'll be around much longer.

I was going to get the L5's but according to Sony I can't run them with the dg910 I just bought

Why not?

If it's the impedance (ohms) ... the receiver companies always give a very conservative answer. In real life, if you're willing to watch the volume it won't be a problem. And a decent receiver (IMO) should shut itself off before any damage is done, so you're just talking about it cutting out if you crank it.

If it's the power output ... no harm done, it just might not get to the performance you want. Just be careful not to push it to distortion / clipping. You wouldn't think it would be a problem with this though.

If the receiver is the problem ... is it too late to take it back or sell it? :)

Mike, I think that is, quite simply, the greatest album of all time ever made by anybody. I realize that's a bold statement, but it would be my pick if I had to name one.

Have you got the remastered version? Also, have you heard OMII yet that came out about 2 years ago? I didn't think it was quite as good as the first, but then again, what could have been, but it sure wasn't bad either. All in all, a great attempt at following up an absoluter masterpiece. :cool:

Well, as a Queensryche fan I'll jump on the bandwagon to go as far as to say I think it is the greatest "Rock Opera" ever. The Wall runs a very close second. :cool:

Wait, there is a remastered version...and an OMII? Jeez, how did I miss that? :o

And I just called myself a fan...

Sony said they only do 8 ohm I will be using it for home theatre. Do you think I would be fine using the L5's as my Lcr. Will they be a big upgrade over ba hs225's

Well, as a Queensryche fan I'll jump on the bandwagon to go as far as to say I think it is the greatest "Rock Opera" ever. The Wall runs a very close second. :cool:

Wait, there is a remastered version...and an OMII? Jeez, how did I miss that? :o

And I just called myself a fan...


Yep, there was in fact a OMII that came out in 2006 which basically picked up the story 18 years later after "Nikki" was released from prison for the murders:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation:_Mindcrime_II

It is very well recorded, and features the voice of non other than Ronnie James Dio singing as the voice of Dr. X on a song with some great exchanges with Geoff Tate.

The original OM has been remastered, and sounds much better than my old CD from the late 80s.

And finally, there is a concert DVD of both OM I and II performed in order in their entirety:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8372218&st=queensryche&type=product&id=1642811

... that finally reveled once and for all that it was in fact Dr. X that killed Mary through his mind control, and not Nikki that killed her (although he did kill the Priest).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation:_Mindcrime

How is the NHT power2 w/ the M5 for music?

I listern to the M5 w/ Primare I21 and sounded great, thinking of a used Primare amp....but a new NHT power2 is about the same price w/ the clr.
(add to a Pioneer 1015 for HT system)

before they offer them for sale at more lucrative prices, similar to what they were selling for used 3 months ago. Just speculation, I know
What did I miss 3 months ago? How lucrative? And, why do dealers want to sit on Evo if price is going lower and lower? They should sell all of Evo now before price hits the bottom.

And, why do dealers want to sit on Evo if price is going lower and lower? They should sell all of Evo now before price hits the bottom.

Supply and demand. The prices are low now because NHT and dealers are trying to dump inventory. The prices for the Evos now are lower than what used prices were a few months back.

When they sale out from retailers and are more rare, the average used selling price will go back up. So if a retailer hung on and had some "new old stock" (if I used that term correctly), they would make more money. But that has to be balanced against the cost of keeping the inventory around...

Hi all, I got wind of the L5 sale from another thread I started regarding on-wall speakers. For the price ListenUp has them at, it might be hard to pass up. I haven't heard them in person yet but a dealer a couple hours away has a demo system I could check out. He offered to sell me the demo speakers for $300 each - little does he know they can be had much cheaper new online.

Any comments on using 3 L5's for L/C/R around a 42" plasma? The price is certainly tempting, and it looks like ListenUp has a 30 day guarantee, too.

Other on-walls I'm considering are Paradigm Cinema 330, Def Tech Mythos 2 or 6, Monitor Audio R225.

I have a 15" Def Tech sub, so bass isn't really an issue. This system is used for about 95% movies. Amp is a B&K AV5000ii - I don't think the 6 ohms would be a problem.

Thanks!

i just bought 3 of the L5's to use as my LCR above my 97 inch screen. I just hope that the Sony 910 can drive them without a problem. Time to move the Boston Acoustic Micro90's to the rear of the room. I will be using MA VRS Pro's from my sides

Too funny, I just checked the Listenup site and they raised the price of the black L5s to $199! I guess they were selling so well that Listenup figures they can make some extra dough. Glad I already got my five, I saved $100!

I need some help understanding the settings. My setup:
1. Classic 4 fronts
2. Classic 3C center
3. Classic 2 surrounds
Onkyo 805 providing the crossover and amp for the 4's tops, the 3C and 2's. I have an X2 and 2 A1's to power the 4 bottoms. Based on this - I'm trying to follow "Method 3"(utilizing the X2 to provide gain controls) from the Evo/X1 manual for bi-amping. So all I'm doing is running a sub pre-out from the Onkyo to the X2 which then splits the sub signal to each A1. Front L/R Top signal comes straight from the Onkyo.

After running an Audyssey set-up I got these Onkyo crossover settings:
Fronts: 150hz
Center: 60hz
Surround: 60hz

I have the X2 Hi Pass at 80hz, and the Low pass at 220.

Questions:
1. 150hz sounds high?!?
2. If the Fronts are crossed at 150hz, and the X2 High Pass is at 80hz - am I losing the signal between 80hz - 120hz?
3. the low end of the 3C is 73hz, so I should probably have the crossover set higher than 60hz?

Any suggestions on how I should adjust my Onkyo crossover settings and the X2 filter settings?

^^^ Set main L/R to large/full range, CC and surrounds to small, crossover at 80 Hz. Connect upper set of speaker wire binding posts on the back of the Fours for the upper frequency drivers to the main L/R speaker wire outs on your AVR. Run main L/R pre-outs from AVR to main L/R inputs on X2, jack the X2's low pass crossover up as high as it will go (220 Hz), you will not even be using the X2's high pass crossover at all this way. Run sub out from AVR to lfe input on back of X2.

^^^ Set main L/R to large/full range, CC and surrounds to small, crossover at 80 Hz. Connect upper set of speaker wire binding posts on the back of the Fours for the upper frequency drivers to the main L/R speaker wire outs on your AVR. Run main L/R pre-outs from AVR to main L/R inputs on X2, jack the X2's low pass crossover up as high as it will go (220 Hz), you will not even be using the X2's high pass crossover at all this way. Run sub out from AVR to lfe input on back of X2.

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the tip. Interesting...I hadn't thought of connecting the Main L/R to the X2 given the Evo manual instructions. If I run Main L/R to both the Upper and Lower, won't there be overlap? Would there be any worry about sync issues? Or is that handled by the phase and boundary controls? (suggestions for those settings?)

Seems like the Lower L/R will receive (via sub out on X2):
Main L/R signal below 220Hz
CC, Surrounds signal below 80Hz
LFE signals

Main Upper L/R will receive Full range signal above AND below 220Hz

Thanks.

By the way, I whole heartedly second Mark's earlier posts, and all others - if you own the Classic 4's, then you must get an X2 and bi-amp them.

Now that we are on the subject of bi-amping the Fours...I'm now considering a nice amp for my mids+uppers. I should have the NHT Controller and Power5 here in a couple of days and the X2 has been in the garage just waiting to be used! Im thinking of a couple of options:

1. A class A amp like the Monarchy Audio SM-70
2. A T-amp or variant like the the T-Rex

Need opinions here...also, anyone know what the total impedance is of the mid+high is on the Fours?

Regards,
Ricky

A little Off topic, but i see Listen Up is selling the plastic Super Ones. Were they absolute sonic twins to the high-glossers?

well i couldn't pass up the crazy deals on evo's. i only had my classic 3s, 3c for 6 months and was mostly happy with them but not so much on ht, just felt like i was missing something...not any more. i've had my m5s for over 2 weeks now and they are a lot better for ht. more punch, dynamics, detail, involvement and enjoyment with movies.

with music they are as mark has often stated much better with most. i like them better for r&r, r&b, hard rock but with frank, dino or norah the classics are much better. the m5s play louder and are a lot easier to drive i have found out.

got a pair of l5s too but have not put them up yet. will probably wait until i get my new amp.

i am glad i made the move even though i am going to miss the classics (at times). if anyone is interested in them drop me a pm.

A little Off topic, but i see Listen Up is selling the plastic Super Ones. Were they absolute sonic twins to the high-glossers?

Off topic? Nah.

I've got the Xu SuperZeroes but haven't had the chance to compare them to their glossy breathren.

NHT's claim was that they were identical. I seem to remember reading somewhere (maybe the old NHT forum?) that the tweeter is slightly recessed (physically) and that lead to some minor sonic differences. I wouldn't use one as a left speaker and one as right speaker, but if you like one I'd imagine you'd like the other.

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the tip. Interesting...I hadn't thought of connecting the Main L/R to the X2 given the Evo manual instructions. If I run Main L/R to both the Upper and Lower, won't there be overlap? Would there be any worry about sync issues? Or is that handled by the phase and boundary controls? (suggestions for those settings?)

Seems like the Lower L/R will receive (via sub out on X2):
Main L/R signal below 220Hz
CC, Surrounds signal below 80Hz
LFE signals

Main Upper L/R will receive Full range signal above AND below 220Hz

Thanks.

By the way, I whole heartedly second Mark's earlier posts, and all others - if you own the Classic 4's, then you must get an X2 and bi-amp them.

Remember, the Fours have their own built in internal high and low pass crossovers fixed at 125 Hz, so the amp connected to the upper set of speaker wire binding posts is only driving the upper frequency drivers from 125 Hz up (which means not a whole lot of power is really required, perfect for your Onk AVR), while the bottom set to the passive subs are driven by the A1s from 125 Hz down. This is for the main L/R channels that should be ran as large/full range from your AVR. All lfe and info from the CC/surrounds below the crossover point you select (such as 80 Hz for example) comes from the AVR's crossover fed to the X2's lfe in.

Now that we are on the subject of bi-amping the Fours...I'm now considering a nice amp for my mids+uppers. I should have the NHT Controller and Power5 here in a couple of days and the X2 has been in the garage just waiting to be used! Im thinking of a couple of options:

1. A class A amp like the Monarchy Audio SM-70
2. A T-amp or variant like the the T-Rex

Need opinions here...also, anyone know what the total impedance is of the mid+high is on the Fours?

Regards,
Ricky

That's an idea, use the X2 and two channels of the Power5 for the subs in the Fours, with a sweet little tubed amp for the upper drivers.

well i couldn't pass up the crazy deals on evo's. i only had my classic 3s, 3c for 6 months and was mostly happy with them but not so much on ht, just felt like i was missing something...not any more. i've had my m5s for over 2 weeks now and they are a lot better for ht. more punch, dynamics, detail, involvement and enjoyment with movies.

with music they are as mark has often stated much better with most. i like them better for r&r, r&b, hard rock but with frank, dino or norah the classics are much better. the m5s play louder and are a lot easier to drive i have found out.

got a pair of l5s too but have not put them up yet. will probably wait until i get my new amp.

i am glad i made the move even though i am going to miss the classics (at times). if anyone is interested in them drop me a pm.

Far be it from me to say "I told you so", but, well, I did. :D:p

Count me in as another person who just bought some Evo L5's because of the great price. I was in the market for some on-walls to put up with my plasma, and had originally ruled these out due to price. Amazing how a >50% discount changes things.

I haven't heard these in person, but with ListenUp's 30 day guarantee, I feel pretty confident in buying and returning if I am an unhappy.

Switching from Paradigm tower speakers in front, but with a 15" sub I don't think I will miss the bass (in fact I ran my Paradigms in "small" mode anyway).

I found a buyer for my Arcam amp so I could jump feet first into the NHT pool. Took advantage of Listenup's great deal on the whole 7 channel controller/amp package. I have classic 4's for my mains and i want to bi amp. do I need an x2 crossover to do this? or can I just use the controller and amps to do this?

Buy NHT Controller???

The price on NHT controller makes it very attractive. I am wondering what risk involves purchasing a Controller at this point considering it's a discontinued product and the future of NHT as a company is uncertain.

Eric

I believe you need an external crossover like the X2 to properly bi-amp the Fours (or any other bi-ampable speaker for that matter).

Regards,
Ricky

Buy NHT Controller???

The price on NHT controller makes it very attractive. I am wondering what risk involves purchasing a Controller at this point considering it's a discontinued product and the future of NHT as a company is uncertain.

Eric

Its a risk for sure...thats why its been heavily discounted. There's still a very slight chance that when/if NHT gets resurrected then there may yet be an upgrade path involved. I purchased the Controller in that hope and have 30 days to hopefully get a better feel for its upgradibility. If it an upgrade path happens then its an absolute steal for the current asking price. The Power5, on the other hand, is a keeper for sure...5x200wpc at 50% off is a no brainer. I may yet p/u the 2x200wpc amp, again a bargain at 50% off.

Regards,
Ricky

Its a risk for sure...thats why its been heavily discounted. There's still a very slight chance that when/if NHT gets resurrected then there may yet be an upgrade path involved. I purchased the Controller in that hope and have 30 days to hopefully get a better feel for its upgradibility. If it an upgrade path happens then its an absolute steal for the current asking price. The Power5, on the other hand, is a keeper for sure...5x200wpc at 50% off is a no brainer. I may yet p/u the 2x200wpc amp, again a bargain at 50% off.

Regards,
Ricky
I assume any upgrade that might be coming will be HDMI 1.3. That aside, how does the Controller compares with prepro offers from other vendors such as NAD with T175?

Regards,

Eric

I assume any upgrade that might be coming will be HDMI 1.3. That aside, how does the Controller compares with prepro offers from other vendors such as NAD with T175?

Regards,

Eric

I havent received my Controller yet...its currently stuck in Utah because of bad weather :( Yes...hdmi 1.3 would be the upgrade I think we'd all like to see...

Regards,
Ricky

well i couldn't pass up the crazy deals on evo's. i only had my classic 3s, 3c for 6 months... This sounds so familiar :D

Peter

I believe you need an external crossover like the X2 to properly bi-amp the Fours (or any other bi-ampable speaker for that matter).

Regards,
Ricky

I believe you could do it without a crossover since the Fours have their own internal crossover. You just need the second amp to have volume control so you can match the gain between the main amp and the amp that's driving the bass section of the Fours.

However having a crossover, particularly the X2, gives you separate LFE control, continuous phase adjustment, boundary adjustment, etc.

I don't know this news means anything? I called AudioAdvisor for special dark Classic 4. I was told they have not had Classic shipment for a while (months). Although they do get Verve, it doesn't sell - people prefer "boxed" speakers. Is Verve discontinued soon?

Edit; I mean shipment from NHT to AudioAdvisor.

That's wierd, I ordered a pair from them last week, well the first order was placed on Christmas Eve, had issues with shipping then reordered them again...

Buy NHT Controller???

The price on NHT controller makes it very attractive. I am wondering what risk involves purchasing a Controller at this point considering it's a discontinued product and the future of NHT as a company is uncertain.

Eric

The thing that stops me from pulling the trigger on the Controller is that even though the HDMI ports are 1.1, they only support 2-channel PCM or 5.1 DD/DTS, so no 7.1 multi-channel PCM. As far as sound quality I heard that it is as good as it gets with true audiophile performance.

The thing that stops me from pulling the trigger on the Controller is that even though the HDMI ports are 1.1, they only support 2-channel PCM or 5.1 DD/DTS, so no 7.1 multi-channel PCM. As far as sound quality I heard that it is as good as it gets with true audiophile performance.
Theoretically no 7.1 multi-channel PCM/DSD is not that critical if your digital source is mostly CD and you have a decent SACD/DVD-A player. All the receiver/prepro nowadays have analog in.

The questions is the new NAD T175 has MSRP of $2000, which brings it very close to Controller after normal discount on T175. But the NAD has / or at least going to provide upgrade to HDMI 1.3. So this makes a tough decision as to whether to take the risk. The main advantage with controller is the custom EQ in controller for my NHT classic speaker. Now, is that worth it?

Eric

Theoretically no 7.1 multi-channel PCM/DSD is not that critical if your digital source is mostly CD and you have a decent SACD/DVD-A player. All the receiver/prepro nowadays have analog in.

The questions is the new NAD T175 has MSRP of $2000, which brings it very close to Controller after normal discount on T175. But the NAD has / or at least going to provide upgrade to HDMI 1.3. So this makes a tough decision as to whether to take the risk. The main advantage with controller is the custom EQ in controller for my NHT classic speaker. Now, is that worth it?

Eric

So what if you have a BluRay AND a DVD-Audio/SACD player? One of them will consume the analog inputs leaving the other to use coax or toslink. If the Controller's HDMI inputs supported 7.1 multi-channel PCM, then problem solved, but they don't. My stopgap solution is the Onkyo 905, but I would have loved to get the Controller if HDMI 1.3 was fully supported, even HDMI 1.1!

I have Two SB-3s and an SC-2 for my fronts. I am looking to upgrade to 7.1. I am looking to add Absolute zeros for the side surrounds and ic3s for the back surrounds and the classic 12 sub. Would this be pretty seamless?

So what if you have a BluRay AND a DVD-Audio/SACD player? One of them will consume the analog inputs leaving the other to use coax or toslink. If the Controller's HDMI inputs supported 7.1 multi-channel PCM, then problem solved, but they don't. My stopgap solution is the Onkyo 905, but I would have loved to get the Controller if HDMI 1.3 was fully supported, even HDMI 1.1!
Just saw on Stereophile website that NHT employees bought out the company. They mentioned that they are going to focus on loudspeakers. Don't know what this means for us holding breath on the Controller....

Eric

Just saw on Stereophile website that NHT employees bought out the company. They mentioned that they are going to focus on loudspeakers. Don't know what this means for us holding breath on the Controller....

Eric

This "news" was reported here several weeks ago. Stereophile is really on top of things.:)

Don't know what this means for us holding breath on the Controller....

Eric

HDMI upgrade? First you turn blue. Then you pass out.

Link to the Stereophile article (http://www.stereophile.com/news/013108nht/)

"Initially, we'll be focusing on the Classic line, our architectural line, the Verve lifestyle line, and our small, but growing, pro-audio business." Byrne said. "We'll be revisiting the rest of the lines as we can start phase two. We will continue supporting all of our products—we have the technicians to repair and deal with all existing NHT products.

"We have a lot of areas where we can go in the future—strategic alliances and directions to grow—but our core is classic, affordable loudspeakers and that's what we're going to concentrate on right now."

Link to the Stereophile article (http://www.stereophile.com/news/013108nht/)

"Initially, we'll be focusing on the Classic line, our architectural line, the Verve lifestyle line, and our small, but growing, pro-audio business." Byrne said. "We'll be revisiting the rest of the lines as we can start phase two. We will continue supporting all of our products—we have the technicians to repair and deal with all existing NHT products.

"We have a lot of areas where we can go in the future—strategic alliances and directions to grow—but our core is classic, affordable loudspeakers and that's what we're going to concentrate on right now."

I haven't been keeping up. So that good news to me!

NHT web site has been updated. No more evo speakers are being show with some other changes. And reading what a lot of people are saying here not sure how well NHT will do with just the classic line as their main speaker line. Unless they update some are add some of the speakers John has been talking about.
Allen

HDMI upgrade? First you turn blue. Then you pass out.
I agree. Any HDMI upgrade to the controller is probably wishful thinking now that NHT is going to focus on their 'core' strength.

Eric

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6527692.html?nid=2402

Larry

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6527692.html?nid=2402

LarrySo are there now great deals on "DSP speakers"?

NHT web site has been updated. No more evo speakers are being show with some other changes. And reading what a lot of people are saying here not sure how well NHT will do with just the classic line as their main speaker line. Unless they update some are add some of the speakers John has been talking about.
Allen

The Evos are now on the "Vintage products" page:

http://nhthifi.com/current/service-vintage.html

It just doesn't look right to click there and see not only all the Evo products, but also all Xd (both consumer and pro), and the Controller & Power5/2 too.

Now, the Four by sheer default is the absolute best speaker they still make, but what's really sad here out of all this, is that the Twelve is likewise now the best sub. :(:o

The Evos are now on the "Vintage products" page:

http://nhthifi.com/current/service-vintage.html

It just doesn't look right to click there and see not only all the Evo products, but also all Xd (both consumer and pro), and the Controller & Power5/2 too.

Now, the Four by sheer default is the absolute best speaker they still make, but what's really sad here out of all this, is that the Twelve is likewise now the best sub. :(:o

I was thinking about this after I read the article from stereophile. This would be a perfect time to bring out a m5 & u1 combo like the vt3s but 1 12" sub in the speaker. Or keep the m5 and m6 for center and surrounds and make the u1 the correct size for the bases.
Allen

Mike, I think that is, quite simply, the greatest album of all time ever made by anybody. I realize that's a bold statement, but it would be my pick if I had to name one.

Have you got the remastered version? Also, have you heard OMII yet that came out about 2 years ago? I didn't think it was quite as good as the first, but then again, what could have been, but it sure wasn't bad either. All in all, a great attempt at following up an absoluter masterpiece. :cool:

Hi Mark - sorry I didn't respond sooner... I've got the remastered version, but I haven't picked up OMII yet -- but I may need to order it now that you've reminded my about it ;)

I was thinking about this after I read the article from stereophile. This would be a perfect time to bring out a m5 & u1 combo like the vt3s but 1 12" sub in the speaker. Or keep the m5 and m6 for center and surrounds and make the u1 the correct size for the bases.
Allen

Or here's the chance for us to maybe get a "Classic 5" with sealed subs, or even the Evo II line... we shall see...

If they're not even starting production for another year, then think 2 yrs before anything is available.

If they're not even starting production for another year, then think 2 yrs before anything is available.

Sounds about right to me.

So are there now great deals on "DSP speakers"?

Good question.

Sounds about right to me. By that time, classics really will be 'classics'...oh what foresight. :rolleyes:

If they're not even starting production for another year, then think 2 yrs before anything is available.

Sounds about right to me.

I agree but with the m5 and 6 I don't think you would have to reinvent the wheel to make it an even better speaker for the money. I would like to see it in black because they would be used a lot in HT rooms. Not a super gloss a color of black that looked good but didn't reflect light to much. I have read that people don't like reflecked type finishes in dark rooms with projectors. I wouldn't know myself.

How about this for a name: M5II M6II and for Mark U1II

Of course Paradigm just changes the version so M5 becomes M5v2 looks kind a like a math problem like that.

Here is the title of the next big NHT thread: NHT New EvolutionII Speakersreplace the Classics

So NHT here are your most loyal fans just ask and we will let you know.

Allen

By that time, classics really will be 'classics'...oh what foresight. :rolleyes:

Exactly. Time to upgrade!

If they're not even starting production for another year, then think 2 yrs before anything is available.



Looks like nothing new for that length of time.

"Byrne’s new company, NHT Audio LLC, has begun hiring back personnel, concentrating first on building a staff of 12 to 13 people focused on sales and customer service. “Then after a year, we’ll start product development in earnest,” Byrne said. “We need first to get close to the market again.”"

Then again, if they don't beef up the sales of what product remains in the lineup, will the financials work out? I guess you just have to wait a year and see what happens at NHT.

It's time for NHT to have very pricey flashship speakers, so they can sell the "cheap/regular" version - is envy a sin?

ok not getting too much response in the NHT Controller thread so i'll pose my questions here since I believe some of us also own the unit. Im trying to figure out if the controller has a "direct" type mode for its analog source inputs. The manual is vague but my best guess is if the corresponding audio setup functions are left unaltered then the signal would pass un-touched?

Regards,
Ricky

“Then after a year, we’ll start product development in earnest,” Byrne said. “We need first to get close to the market again.” Start development in a year? Now we're looking at 3 yrs min till new product reaches market, too long imo. They want to get closer to market, require all employees to read this thread 3-4 times. That & spend some time marketing, I know its a new idea & everything but just maybe...

Then again, if they don't beef up the sales of what product remains in the lineup, will the financials work out? I guess you just have to wait a year and see what happens at NHT. I can tell you what's going to happen if they stay on that path. The already anemic, alienated dealer 'network' will evaporate. Why would any profit minded installer/dealer bother with nht at this point? No new product for at least 3 yrs, dumping inventory & depressing what customer base still exists. Far better off carrying something with more brand recognition & broader range of offerings. So with all this, the cash flow neccessary to pay off the line of credit they got to buy the company will diminish & there they go again, back in jeopardy.

You want some instant cash flow & wow factor? Use what you already have & know. Introduce the classic 5 & 6; 5 is a 3 with 2 drivers & the 6 - basically a Four with 2 drivers & 12" sub. A minimal amount of time, cost & engineering to pull that off. Get that out the door, then start development cycle on next line. What a no brainer. :confused:

I can tell you what's going to happen if they stay on that path. The already anemic, alienated dealer 'network' will evaporate. Why would any profit minded installer/dealer bother with nht at this point? No new product for at least 3 yrs, dumping inventory & depressing what customer base still exists. Far better off carrying something with more brand recognition & broader range of offerings. So with all this, the cash flow neccessary to pay off the line of credit they got to buy the company will diminish & there they go again, back in jeopardy.

That's why I still say it's time to go ID. Despite how one particular poster on this thread feels that B&M offers so much "growth" potential, the cold hard hard fact is that just take a look at how much "growth" 20 years of the B&M model has provided, 20 years of "growth" that could prolly be eclipsed on less than 2 years of ID. Price does matter. Just look at how many have scooped up the close out Evo and SD Classics at these prices that would be very comparable to ID prices.

You want some instant cash flow & wow factor? Use what you already have & know. Introduce the classic 5 & 6; 5 is a 3 with 2 drivers & the 6 - basically a Four with 2 drivers & 12" sub. A minimal amount of time, cost & engineering to pull that off. Get that out the door, then start development cycle on next line. What a no brainer. :confused:

If I could design my own personal ultimate NHT speaker, it would be kinda sorta based on the VT-2.4, a 2-way design for the upper frequency drivers with dual mid drivers and the optional, defeatable bi-polar mode with a tweet and mid driver on the back for movies, but with dual, opposing 10" or 12" sub drivers like the W1 or XdW (so the cabinet may be a little wider at the bottom than the top, and would gradually taper in as it goes upwards), and would have the option to bi-amp them with an X2/A1s and/or also the option to defeat the crossovers in the speakers and use an XdA on them. Now that speaker would kick some major @$$, as well as allow customers to buy and enjoy the speakers as is first, then add the X2/a1s and/or XdA later as budget and funds allow. :cool:;):D

For surround, this system would have a 3-way CC with vertical tweet/mid alignment, and a true on wall mountable matching surround available for those who wanted or needed it.

Looks like this thread should be retittled to: "NHT Classic line to replace almost everything"

I really hope NHT is able to regroup and refocus their business model. It would be a shame to see the company disappear. I read the other day that M&K is being brought back to the market so maybe there is hope for NHT. I don't need another set of T5s but with the prices being asked it is very hard to not purchase them. If it wasn't for the complete uncertainty with the xD system I would try to hunt down a system.

I can tell you what's going to happen if they stay on that path. The already anemic, alienated dealer 'network' will evaporate. Why would any profit minded installer/dealer bother with nht at this point? No new product for at least 3 yrs, dumping inventory & depressing what customer base still exists. Far better off carrying something with more brand recognition & broader range of offerings. So with all this, the cash flow neccessary to pay off the line of credit they got to buy the company will diminish & there they go again, back in jeopardy.

Well, hard to say. On the good side, they do have a reasonable amount of dealers that like the Classic line and it is hard to match. So, if they concentrate for nothing but dealer/customer service for a year, that could help a lot. On the other hand, many dealers only sold Evolution and the subs were our best selling subs by far, the L5s were one of our best sellers and there's nothing to replace it, the Verve just seems to me to be nothing like an NHT product, and architectural product is getting a bit elderly except for the iW4s (which are just about unmatched).

If they want, they could certainly bring out more products based on the Classic dome array (Classic 5, new L5, Classic Three tower, etc), reintroduce the U1/U2 in piano black, start selling the S12 which is like a U1 on steroids, reintroduce a few discontinued products such as the SB1, ST4, etc, and have a more fleshed out line without having lots of engineering resourced tied up.

My big beef is, going against my recommendation, not only did they blow out L5s at stupidly low prices (when they should have been held onto as long as necessary as a steady selling product), but they only gave them to around 3 e-tailers, not regular dealers who install them, leaving many of us including me, out on a limb and scrambling to replace them for upcoming installs. Ignoring good advice, blowing out needed product, not letting any custom or retail guys in on it and leaving them high and dry on their upcoming custom installations is like an alcoholic saying he's going to quit drinking, then heading off a bar to celebrate his sobriety with a bottle of JD and a good wife beating, not exactly the best first step in the 12 step process, especially after doing it with Classics in Special Dark. But, it's their company, I just now realize that I can't spec them in on custom installs because I can't be sure if I can get the product when I need it, so it has to be a more of a "so you want this today, okay, yes, we can do that" retail sort of sale.

So, I decided there's no use giving advice that won't be taken (or is taken with hostility). I still want and need to sell the product, but it sure is hard to be as enthusiastic about it as I was. For me, the products that are somewhat unmatched are the iW4s, the Classic Three/Four/3C, most everything else is replaceable with similar product from other companies. I do wish them all the luck possible, but it sure would be nice to see a major philosophy change and an enormous mea culpa. I handed off my 20 point resurrection plan complete with all my product ideas so at this point, all I can do is sit back and watch and see what develops. In depressing news, I had an investor come through, but a week too late as they'd already made an agreement to buy the company. Sure would have been nice making that announcement myself......

...the Verve just seems to me to be nothing like an NHT product...

I never did hear much about the Verve. In some ways it seemed like a smart product, but if they were going after the HTIB market the price was too small, and if they were going after style-conscious yuppies the speakers weren't pretty enough.

Seems like this would have been the line to kill. But at least they were trying to expand the market.

Did anyone else here ever give them a listen?

In depressing news, I had an investor come through, but a week too late as they'd already made an agreement to buy the company. Sure would have been nice making that announcement myself......

Well, that's a shame. What might have been...

Verve is largely form over function and NHT has always been about function over form. It's not as good as the less expensive AZ/Ten system, though the form factor is pretty cool. They know that, but it exists, it is what it is. They told me it was supposed be be a $1000 system, not a $2000 system, but it got out of control. If the tweeter and sub were better, it would be worth it, but it made more sense to step up to the L5/U1 (RIP)

Verve is largely form over function and NHT has always been about function over form. It's not as good as the less expensive AZ/Ten system, though the form factor is pretty cool. They know that, but it exists, it is what it is. They told me it was supposed be be a $1000 system, not a $2000 system, but it got out of control. If the tweeter and sub were better, it would be worth it, but it made more sense to step up to the L5/U1 (RIP)

And the form isn't even that great. Well, the size is, I suppose, but it doesn't look good, at least not in the pictures.

It's a shame the sub isn't any better. Seemed like a 2x10" sealed sub was exactly what the classics needed.

Soooooo. Is NHT Audio, LLC going to rehire Jack (which would be a smart idea, IMHO), and if not, who from NHT Audio, LLC is going to monitor this BBS?

Peter

Soooooo. Is NHT Audio, LLC going to rehire Jack (which would be a smart idea, IMHO), and if not, who from NHT Audio, LLC is going to monitor this BBS?

Hard to say, but I have always gotten the feeling that there's no love lost between engineering and marketing. Kinda always reminded me of a rock band where the part of what makes them so unstable also makes good products, right up until the band breaks up. Ken, Jack and Bill are kind of like the Derek Dick (if you don't know, you're missing out), Peter Gabriel and Sting of NHT. Or maybe it's like Van Halen where the music largely stays the same and if not, they just blame it on the front man and get a new one.

As for the boards, I guess it depends what they mean by "reconnecting with the marketplace".

In the past NHT has blamed the parent company for everything, so now it's all up to them and that could be a great thing or maybe it's back to same old same old. We just don't know. In 15 years of being a dealer, except for when Bill was in charge for two years, I really never got into a really productive tete a tete with anyone there about direction, product development, marketing, etc, so, to be honest, I don't know what the current guys are capable of doing one way or another. i honestly don't. i just knew what the engineers could do. Kinda like the band where you know who plays what instrument, but don't know who really drives the band's success.

Just got my controller/power5 combo hooked up to my classic 4's, 2C center and Absolute Zero surrounds and it sounds insanely good!!! I dont care about hdmi 1.3 because this thing just plain rocks my vinyl collection as Ive never heard it before.

If anyone wants to buy an Arcam AVR300, just let me know, Im blowing it out just like NHT blew out my completely new system.

thanks to John and Mark for your helpful input... I wont be bugging you guys anymore about getting more bass, I have all I need now.

ok not getting too much response in the NHT Controller thread so i'll pose my questions here since I believe some of us also own the unit. Im trying to figure out if the controller has a "direct" type mode for its analog source inputs. The manual is vague but my best guess is if the corresponding audio setup functions are left unaltered then the signal would pass un-touched?

Regards,
Ricky

Anyone? Mark, John?

It does have a direct, i believe, as long as you aren't using a sub. if you use a sub, i think it has to digitize the signal. I can't remember for sure as i often confuse that unit with the Fosgate which i know had an analog BM option.

I've been listening to both systems for awhile and need to make a decision for a Home Theatre setup primarily. Has anyone done any direct comparisons?

I was leaning towards Verve until the price went up. Now the price has come down BUT it may be product closeout at this point.

you'd be insane not to go for L5s and an Evo sub. The L5s are not big at all next to a TV. No contest. The L5s spank[ed] every on wall speaker i've seen or heard anywhere within about $2000/pr and are being closed out for less than Verve.

I finally did the automatic sound calibration with the Controller and all I can say is "holy batman!" My windows and wall hangings dont rattle anymore! Bass was a huge improvement...very tight, punchy and not at all bloomy. Cant wait to set up full surround!

Regards,
Ricky

Just got my controller/power5 combo hooked up to my classic 4's, 2C center and Absolute Zero surrounds and it sounds insanely good!!! I dont care about hdmi 1.3 because this thing just plain rocks my vinyl collection as Ive never heard it before.

If anyone wants to buy an Arcam AVR300, just let me know, Im blowing it out just like NHT blew out my completely new system.

thanks to John and Mark for your helpful input... I wont be bugging you guys anymore about getting more bass, I have all I need now.
Congratulations on your purchase and glad to know the system sound excellent sonically. I am also a little tempted the deals on controller. Can you or anyone offer a comparison of stereo performance between the Controller and other prepro, especially NAD T163 and T175?

Eric

The Controller and T175 are both notably better than the T163. The Controller is brighter, the T175 is warmer. The Controller is better at tweaking the speakers, the T175 is better at tweaking the room.

havent had a chance to listen to the NAD pre/pro so cant give you any opinion on it...all I can say is that the controller/power5 makes my classics sing on a wide variety of music and makes dvds sound amazing as well. Bass is solid and punchy, midrange is good and the highs are very detailed but not fatiguing. I listen to mostly vinyl so performance may vary if listen to cds or other sources.

I finally did the automatic sound calibration with the Controller and all I can say is "holy batman!" My windows and wall hangings dont rattle anymore! Bass was a huge improvement...very tight, punchy and not at all bloomy. Cant wait to set up full surround!

Regards,
Ricky

I've tried three different bass reflex NHT towers with the Controller at one time or another, ST-4s, Fours, and VT-2.4s, and it made a noticeable improvement in the bass in each case.

I still think bi-amping with an X2 is even better, but short of that, the Controller is the next best thing, and, it's a little less involved than tweaking the X2 since it's basically automatic. For the best of both worlds however, do both. :D

Congratulations on your purchase and glad to know the system sound excellent sonically. I am also a little tempted the deals on controller. Can you or anyone offer a comparison of stereo performance between the Controller and other prepro, especially NAD T163 and T175?

Eric

Can't comment on the T175, but I felt 2 channel was better on the NAD S170 than the T163, and I can tell you that 2 channel on the Controller is even better than the S170, at least on NHT speakers. ;)

Anyone? Mark, John?

ok not getting too much response in the NHT Controller thread so i'll pose my questions here since I believe some of us also own the unit. Im trying to figure out if the controller has a "direct" type mode for its analog source inputs. The manual is vague but my best guess is if the corresponding audio setup functions are left unaltered then the signal would pass un-touched?

Regards,
Ricky


I think I've read or heard that Controller's 7.1 input completely bypasses the processor, making Controller just a pricey volume button. I tried to browse through the pdf manual, but didn't find anything about that though. In Favourite mode setup you should be able to choose the 2ch music mode as "stereo" which should do the thing too, but not quite the same way as the 7.1 input does.

I've sold my Controller, so I was unable to check the tricks. A great unit, but a bad business nowadays. Sad.

Regards,

Mika

BTW, regardless of whatever pre-pro you go with, even if it's ultimately not the Controller, anyone in the market for a multi channel power amp should be all over this Power5 deal from ListenUp. Where else can you buy any 200 watt X 5 amp (very conservatively rated at that) new in box delivered from a fully authorized dealer with full factory warranty intact for $1200? The answer is - you can't.

At first I was skeptical of an amp that only weighed 30 lbs. putting out that much power, but, the numbers don't lie. Just take a look at HTM's specs on it from their bench test::eek:

All channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 257.1 watts
1% distortion at 299.1 watts

Frequency response:
–0.29 dB at 10 Hz; –0.09 dB at 20 Hz
–0.27 dB at 20 kHz; +0.68 dB at 50 kHz

This graph shows that the Power5's left amplifier channel, with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 291.6 watts and

1 percent distortion at 349.5 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 538.9 watts and 1 percent distortion at 640.2 watts.

from:

http://www.hometheatermag.com/completesystems/407nht/index4.html

This thing is a freakin' BEAST! :cool:;):D

Here's the feature I liked best: The 7.1-channel Analog Direct input uses the channel-balance adjustments specified for the digital inputs and adds analog bass management! For this unique input, you can select from the menu All Small speakers, All Large, or L&R Large (with the rest Small), and a fixed 80Hz crossover is applied to all settings. Sure, I'd like more options, such as L/C/R Large and/or adjustable crossover frequencies, but short of redigitizing the multichannel input, I don't expect it. For those of us who insist on using high-resolution SACD and DVD-Audio players with minimal or no bass management, the NHT Controller is one of the most audio-friendly pre-pros yet.

From:

http://www.stereophile.com/musicintheround/107mitr/index1.html

I think I've read or heard that Controller's 7.1 input completely bypasses the processor, making Controller just a pricey volume button. I tried to browse through the pdf manual, but didn't find anything about that though. In Favourite mode setup you should be able to choose the 2ch music mode as "stereo" which should do the thing too, but not quite the same way as the 7.1 input does.

I've sold my Controller, so I was unable to check the tricks. A great unit, but a bad business nowadays. Sad.

Regards,

Mika

Thanks much for your assistance.

Regards,
Ricky

BTW, regardless of whatever pre-pro you go with, even if it's ultimately not the Controller, anyone in the market for a multi channel power amp should be all over this Power5 deal from ListenUp. Where else can you buy any 200 watt X 5 amp (very conservatively rated at that) new in box delivered from a fully authorized dealer with full factory warranty intact for $1200? The answer is - you can't.

At first I was skeptical of an amp that only weighed 30 lbs. putting out that much power, but, the numbers don't lie. Just take a look at HTM's specs on it from their bench test::eek:



from:

http://www.hometheatermag.com/completesystems/407nht/index4.html

This thing is a freakin' BEAST! :cool:;):D


Exactly! Though I may decide to return my Controller the Power 5 is a definite keeper. I think I read somewhere that the Power 2 and Power 5 are class D amps based on the B&O ICEamp modules. This would explain the light weight and high output. Im still debating on getting the Power 2...again, a steal at $699 for 200wpcx2.

Regards,
Ricky

Originally Posted by Kal
Here's the feature I liked best: The 7.1-channel Analog Direct input uses the channel-balance adjustments specified for the digital inputs and adds analog bass management! For this unique input, you can select from the menu All Small speakers, All Large, or L&R Large (with the rest Small), and a fixed 80Hz crossover is applied to all settings. Sure, I'd like more options, such as L/C/R Large and/or adjustable crossover frequencies, but short of redigitizing the multichannel input, I don't expect it. For those of us who insist on using high-resolution SACD and DVD-Audio players with minimal or no bass management, the NHT Controller is one of the most audio-friendly pre-pros yet.

So does this mean that my auto-calibrations also apply to the 7.1 analog inputs?

Regards,
Ricky

^^^ Set main L/R to large/full range, CC and surrounds to small, crossover at 80 Hz. Connect upper set of speaker wire binding posts on the back of the Fours for the upper frequency drivers to the main L/R speaker wire outs on your AVR. Run main L/R pre-outs from AVR to main L/R inputs on X2, jack the X2's low pass crossover up as high as it will go (220 Hz), you will not even be using the X2's high pass crossover at all this way. Run sub out from AVR to lfe input on back of X2.

In a quest to flesh out better low-end response from my system I am currently considering either the Classic 4 bi-amp strategy (with the NHT X-1/A2) or the U-1 option. I can still obtain the U-1 combo in my area for a very decent sum. Thoughts/recommendations anyone?:confused:

NHT Classic 4's, 3C, iC4's, CA Azur 640R, Pioneer Elite DV-46AV DVD/1540 HD 60" Plasma

^^^ Add the X2/A1s to the Fours. Forget about the U1. I'm sure Jack would tell you the same thing. ;)

Im still debating on getting the Power 2...again, a steal at $699 for 200wpcx2.

Regards,
Ricky

True, but I'd still shell out the $500 extra for the three additional amp channels on the Power5. You could use them for bi-amping, second zones, as sub amps, etc.

speaking of the power2... has anyone tried hooking up a tube preamp to it? Listenup's deal included a $200 discount if I bought the controller, power5 and power2 together so i couldnt pass it up. dont really need to biamp so thought I might set up a dedicated 2 channel rig with it in my extra room.

^^^ Add the X2/A1s to the Fours. Forget about the U1. I'm sure Jack would tell you the same thing. ;)

Thanks for your reply Mark. What kind of response could one be typically realize with the bi-amp solution alone? I remember Jack saying it's best to avoid subs (such as the Classic subs) that cover a somewhat similar frequency range as the Fours. Is this also the case with the better Evo U-1 system? He suggested that a carefully integrated high-output sub with response below 20Hz is the way to go provided the bi-amp solution isn't enough. He also said that an X2 is still recommended to better fine tune the stand-alone sub. So then, what can you recommend for a fine, moderately-priced sub (that meets this criteria) to anchor the Fours for both music and movies?

Well, that's just it - the U1 doesn't have much, if any, deeper extension than the Fours. UAV measured the Fours subs -10 db at 22 Hz, the U1 with a stock X1 prolly won't even do that, especially since it's not really ideal for corner placement.

Besides, in addition to Jack's previous comments you just mentioned about adding a sub to Fours, he has also recommended not to add any other kind of non-Evo sub to an Evo sub - that to just add more Evo subs to the room/system. So that would be contradicting his advice in not just one, but two different ways.

Bi-amping the Fours with an X2/A1s won't give you any more extension, but it will give you more output and control over the bass.

Well, that's just it - the U1 doesn't have much, if any, deeper extension than the Fours. UAV measured the Fours subs -10 db at 22 Hz, the U1 with a stock X1 prolly won't even do that, especially since it's not really ideal for corner placement.

Besides, in addition to Jack's previous comments you just mentioned about adding a sub to Fours, he has also recommended not to add any other kind of non-Evo sub to an Evo sub - that to just add more Evo subs to the room/system. So that would be contradicting his advice in not just one, but two different ways.

Bi-amping the Fours with an X2/A1s won't give you any more extension, but it will give you more output and control over the bass.

Sorry I don't quite follow you on the "not to add any other kind of non-Evo sub to an Evo sub - that to just add more Evo subs to the room/system". Were those UAV measurements taken from stock Fours, or were they bi-amped? What does one add to this system if he wants deeper extending bass response that goes beyond that which which the bi-amped Fours can supply? There clearly must be some recommendation for a good sub for a (bi-amped or not) Classic Four system.

Here is Jack's quote I was thinking of about not to add any other type of sub or subs (such as those in the Fours for example) to Evo subs, but to simply add more Evo subs instead:

We definitely recommend to not add a subwoofer to a T6 system. It will be impossible to ge the two systems sum correctly. If you need more bass output than a T6 system has, just add a U1 or U2 subwoofer to it. This is guaranteed to add correctly.

As for UAV's measurements, even if they were taken with the X2/A1s (which I doubt they were anyway even though the review did include them), it wouldn't matter since it still wouldn't increase their extension any.

I don't know what is a "reasonable" price to you, but the SVS PB10 NSD for about $500 shipped does go to 20 Hz and slightly below, but IMO if one went that route, they'd be better off to just add the SVS to a pair of Threes rather than try to integrate it with a pair of Fours just to get a few extra Hz more extension.

I don't know what is a "reasonable" price to you, but the SVS PB10 NSD for about $500 shipped does go to 20 Hz and slightly below, but IMO if one went that route, they'd be better off to just add the SVS to a pair of Threes rather than try to integrate it with a pair of Fours just to get a few extra Hz more extension.[/QUOTE]

Well maybe I'm better of just bi-amping my Fours then. I guess the reason I was considering a sub in the first place was largely for the LFE...aka the .1 portion of DVD soundtracks which I always assumed was designed to go exclusively to a stand-alone subwoofer. How do you divert that portion to the NHT Four's 10 passive subwoofers?:)

I believe you set the Fours as full range speakers in your pre-pro/receiver...

Regards,
Ricky

I don't know what is a "reasonable" price to you, but the SVS PB10 NSD for about $500 shipped does go to 20 Hz and slightly below, but IMO if one went that route, they'd be better off to just add the SVS to a pair of Threes rather than try to integrate it with a pair of Fours just to get a few extra Hz more extension.

Well maybe I'm better of just bi-amping my Fours then. I guess the reason I was considering a sub in the first place was largely for the LFE...aka the .1 portion of DVD soundtracks which I always assumed was designed to go exclusively to a stand-alone subwoofer. How do you divert that portion to the NHT Four's 10 passive subwoofers?:)[/QUOTE]

LFE to 4's...Connect sub/lfe out of recv'r/pre-pro to x2 x-over's lfe in. This will carry/send lfe's (from your .1 sources/dvd, etc) to the 4's 10 inchers.

Originally Posted by Kal
Here's the feature I liked best: The 7.1-channel Analog Direct input uses the channel-balance adjustments specified for the digital inputs and adds analog bass management! For this unique input, you can select from the menu All Small speakers, All Large, or L&R Large (with the rest Small), and a fixed 80Hz crossover is applied to all settings. Sure, I'd like more options, such as L/C/R Large and/or adjustable crossover frequencies, but short of redigitizing the multichannel input, I don't expect it. For those of us who insist on using high-resolution SACD and DVD-Audio players with minimal or no bass management, the NHT Controller is one of the most audio-friendly pre-pros yet.

So does this mean that my auto-calibrations also apply to the 7.1 analog inputs?

Regards,
Ricky


The auto-calibration just measures the distances and sets up the volumes so it applies also to 7.1. However, Controller does lots of fine-adjusting for NHT speakers with its signal processor and this is (should be) bypassed in 7.1.

In 7.1 setup you can manually fine-tune the levels as you would do in "normal" av-receiver.


Regards,

Mika

I'm thinking of getting L5s to use as rears (T5s and an M5 center in the front), but neither the silver nor the black would be appropriate. I'm considering buying the silvers and painting them light cream to match the walls, and possibly replacing the speaker cloth to a more similar color. Any comments from others on the board?

Peter

I'm trying to convince a friend to jump on the L5 specials. He's got 2 SB1s currently; he'd be upgrading to 4 L5s (2 front, 2 rear). The SB1s are currently on a mantle, very near the rear wall, so I thought he'd be better off just wall mounting. This should be an improvement, right? the -3dB bass point is pretty close for both. He doesn't have a subwoofer, but hey, that's what we'll work on next.

^^^ Add the X2/A1s to the Fours. Forget about the U1. I'm sure Jack would tell you the same thing. ;) Sure, you don't need U1 with Fours; but that's not to say Fours/A1/X2 are better than Threes/A1/X1 20hz mod because they're not.
:cool:

I'm trying to convince a friend to jump on the L5 specials. He's got 2 SB1s currently; he'd be upgrading to 4 L5s (2 front, 2 rear). The SB1s are currently on a mantle, very near the rear wall, so I thought he'd be better off just wall mounting. This should be an improvement, right? the -3dB bass point is pretty close for both. He doesn't have a subwoofer, but hey, that's what we'll work on next.

l5s sound a lot more powerful than they measure. I ran 5 for awhile before putting in the U1.

l5s sound a lot more powerful than they measure. I ran 5 for awhile before putting in the U1.

Excellent. I'll keep pushing then!

Well, the Three C is a bit bright for Xd. Maybe an M5?

If you can grab a Controller Amp while they're getting closed out, it's a great deal, though there will never be an 7.1 PCM audio or room correction upgrade

BTW, here's what I've been up to so you don't think I've been neglecting the forum entirely -

http://forum.adnm.com/viewtopic.php?t=134

or

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=971271

Looking good, John. Not too thrilled with the tool model though. :)

Speaking of which, I am hoping you will have pictures of the grand opening, complete with properly assembled and attired models (hint: I prefer blondes, no matter what color their hair is). :cool:

All the discussion about Classic 4's, bi-amping and crossovers is interesting.

I use a JL F113 sub and I dont know how far off my settings are but for music, the crossover I use is 60 hz with the 4's set to large and bi-amped; HT has the crossover at 80 hz on my AVR with the 4's still set at large and bi-amped.

I like the 4's and am considering getting another set to use as surrounds to replace my classic 3's (5.1 system) or just use them when I go to a 7.1 system.

I find myself tweaking here and there hoping to discover optimal settings. What are your experiences and preferred settings?

I just set up my 3 L5's in the front. They blow away the BA Micro 90's and VR10 that I had before. I just watched Dave Matthews on Blue Ray and it was awsome. These speakers have a great range.

Gald you like them. Now, you just need 6 more.

cue Russ.... :)

Did a bunch of posts get erased?

I asked yesterday about opinions of using 5 A1 amps versus Power5. I have the A1's but seeing the great price Power5 is going for started to wonder if there was any sense in getting that instead of the A1's.

Sorry if someone already gave their opinion yesterday and I didn't have time to read it.

What are the pros and cons between these two alternatives?

Thanks.

A bunch did when a server crashed.

i like the power5, it seems more powerful and effortless to me. But i don't know that i'd trade to it if you already have a1s.

I think simplicity in setup would favor the Power 5 especially the need for only one ac outlet instead of a few. Some posts were lost due to the AVS Forum server crash...

Regards,
Ricky

I just set up my 3 L5's in the front. They blow away the BA Micro 90's and VR10 that I had before. I just watched Dave Matthews on Blue Ray and it was awsome. These speakers have a great range.

j98c - thanks for the info. Did you mount them all into studs? That's one of my concerns - these suckers are heavy for on-walls! I have plaster walls but I'm wondering if I could put them just into the wall with the proper anchors rather than into studs which would limit the mounting location a bit.

I've got many A1s and technically don't need another amp, but the price for the Power 5 makes it very tempting.

Well it looks like the purchaser of my 2.5is has had a change of heart so off to the rears they go! So my 5 channel setup goes like this now: Classic Fours (to be bi-amped) l/r, Classic 3c, 2.5is lr/rr all powered by the Power 5. This could be fun!

Regards,
Ricky

I used wall ancors, the big metal ones that screw in, approximately 1/2 wide, and then a screw is put into them. I think they are rated at 50 lbs. They are very secure and I have no worrys about them holding the L5's. I will be moving the Micro 90s to the rear and keeping my BA VRS Pros for the sides.

The A1 is 115v/230v switchable. I didn't see any info in the user manual of Power5 if that is 115v/230v or 115v only. Does anyone know?

j98c - thanks for the info. Did you mount them all into studs? That's one of my concerns - these suckers are heavy for on-walls! I have plaster walls but I'm wondering if I could put them just into the wall with the proper anchors rather than into studs which would limit the mounting location a bit.

Mounting to studs is not necessary. Just be sure to use anchors appropriate to the weight of the speaker and the material you are mounting it to.

I'm thinking of getting L5s to use as rears (T5s and an M5 center in the front), but neither the silver nor the black would be appropriate. I'm considering buying the silvers and painting them light cream to match the walls, and possibly replacing the speaker cloth to a more similar color. Any comments from others on the board?

Peter

Just this from me - if you're going to go ahead and paint them something else anyway, then go ahead and grab some color before they're all gone and you miss out entirely on those prices from over-analyzing. ;)

Sure, you don't need U1 with Fours; but that's not to say Fours/A1/X2 are better than Threes/A1/X1 20hz mod because they're not.
:cool:

While I would agree with 100% about dual W1s, that is definitely debatable with only one. For one thing, the Fours will give you true stereo bass, and better bass integration (even if slightly) than a pair of Threes with a U1 ever will. The X2 would help negate at least some of the W1's placement flexibility advantage, and not to even mention, a single W1 with a 20 Hz modded X1 will then have a little deeper extension, but at the price of losing some output, maybe even to the point that the Fours' subs bi-amped with A1s would have a clear cut advantage there as well.

And I'm not even going to go into how some here feel that the lower midbass transition/integration is better on Fours than Threes crossed over to a sub. ;)

Just this from me - if you're going to go ahead and paint them something else anyway, then go ahead and grab some color before they're all gone and you miss out entirely on those prices from over-analyzing. ;)
I just wanted to make sure painting the L5s wasn't going to ruin them, and that changing the grill cloth was viable (or do they have metal screens which are paintable, like in-walls?).

Peter

I just wanted to make sure painting the L5s wasn't going to ruin them, and that changing the grill cloth was viable (or do they have metal screens which are paintable, like in-walls?).

Peter

I know the white models are listed as being paintable, but I assume the others would be OK as well. The paperwork with the L5s says the grille can be removed, but I haven't figured out how yet. They are not metal grilles.

While I would agree with 100% about dual W1s, that is definitely debatable with only one. For one thing, the Fours will give you true stereo bass, and better bass integration (even if slightly) than a pair of Threes with a U1 ever will. The X2 would help negate at least some of the W1's placement flexibility advantage, and not to even mention, a single W1 with a 20 Hz modded X1 will then have a little deeper extension, but at the price of losing some output, maybe even to the point that the Fours' subs bi-amped with A1s would have a clear cut advantage there as well.

And I'm not even going to go into how some here feel that the lower midbass transition/integration is better on Fours than Threes crossed over to a sub. ;)

Thanks for all your comments on this topic - I do appreciate all the details. I have just ordered 2- A1's and an X2 for my Fours.

And I'm not even going to go into how some here feel that the lower midbass transition/integration is better on Fours than Threes crossed over to a sub. ;) Ok, and I won't get into how 2x10" can't even come close to 4x12" in spl. :)

I just wanted to make sure painting the L5s wasn't going to ruin them, and that changing the grill cloth was viable (or do they have metal screens which are paintable, like in-walls?).

Peter

Just get them mo-fos and paint 'em. They'll be alright.

Ok, and I won't get into how 2x10" cannot even come close to 4x12" in spl. :)

Clearly, you either didn't even bother to read, or, simply didn't fully understand my post. Go back and look at it again while paying particular attention to the very first sentence in it this time.

Your post, at least to me, looked like you were talking about a single W1 since you said U1, and it should have been very clear from my post that was how I interpreted it. ;)

At any rate though, if sheer SPL was what one mainly wanted in a sub, they would prolly be looking at other options in the first place. :p

Thanks for all your comments on this topic - I do appreciate all the details. I have just ordered 2- A1's and an X2 for my Fours.

Congrats dog. I guarantee you that you won't be disappointed. :cool:

Clearly, you either didn't even bother to read, or, simply didn't fully understand my post. Fours certainly have more waf and are nicely integrated, but 2 U1s & 20hz mod is a better option if you can afford them, or even find them now. However I'd certainly jump at Fours with 2 drivers & 12" sub, like yesterday. :p

i just set up a system of 3 M5s and a pair of L5s at my sister's inlaw's place... and I must say I was impressed... I used to love the old NHT VT series speakers and own a pair of SuperOnes but hadn't heard the Evolutions...i ended up buying a set of T5s, an M5 and 4 L5s for my parents home theater after hearing them...only thing is they felt a little under powered with their Onkyo 605. so for my parents i'll probably have to get some more power. i was thinking maybe the Emotiva MPS-2. anyone tried this combo yet?

only thing is they felt a little under powered with their Onkyo 605. so for my parents i'll probably have to get some more power. i was thinking maybe the Emotiva MPS-2. anyone tried this combo yet?

How do you know when your AVR is underpowered? I have the same setup of 2 T5s, 1 M5, 2 L5s, and a small AVR. I've been thinking about the Emotiva amp, but I have no idea if it will actually improve the sound quality. What improvement do you get by going with a bigger amp over the amp in your AVR?

The auto-calibration just measures the distances and sets up the volumes so it applies also to 7.1. However, Controller does lots of fine-adjusting for NHT speakers with its signal processor and this is (should be) bypassed in 7.1.

In 7.1 setup you can manually fine-tune the levels as you would do in "normal" av-receiver.


Regards,

Mika

What's quoted in bold is as I understand it as well. These inputs completely bypass the digital section of the Controller entirely, although it can still do some limited bass management on them.

I don't see why the lack of HDMI 1.3 and maybe even the missing room correction too can't be addressed and solved by simply getting something like an Onkyo 705 or 805 AVR (or, if $$$ isn't an issue, even the new NAD pre-pro), and then running the pre-outs of it to the 5/7.1 channel analog inputs on the Controller. When using it for the newer hi-rez audio formats, simply set the Controller's volume at 0 for a unity gain (pass-thru) setting, and then simply use the AVR's volume control whenever using it as the decoder. Also, let the AVR handle all the bass management when it's being used.

This would solve the HDMI 1.3 issue relatively cheaply, and I don't see why the Audyssey MultEQ XT wouldn't work as well, but I don't think you could overlay the Controller's model specific speaker Deq over top of it though.

And finally, for regular, standard def DVDs with DD or DTS, simply run the players' digital outputs to the Controller's digital ins.

What improvement do you get by going with a bigger amp over the amp in your AVR?

Lots! I'm from the school of thought that more $$$ should be put into better speakers and/or room treatments than electronics as it will make a far more noticeable impact on the final sound, but if you don't have an AVR with a top notch power amp section, and add a separate power amp (providing you have pre-outs to do so), it will be a very noticeable upgrade. :cool:

i just set up a system of 3 M5s and a pair of L5s at my sister's inlaw's place... and I must say I was impressed... I used to love the old NHT VT series speakers and own a pair of SuperOnes but hadn't heard the Evolutions...i ended up buying a set of T5s, an M5 and 4 L5s for my parents home theater after hearing them...only thing is they felt a little under powered with their Onkyo 605. so for my parents i'll probably have to get some more power. i was thinking maybe the Emotiva MPS-2. anyone tried this combo yet?

So, are you gonna get any for yourself? ;)

like i said i already got the setup for my parents..i'm currently in med school about to start residency...so getting anything for myself is not really feasible... well thats not entirely true...i've been keeping my eyes out for a used pair of SuperOnes and a SuperCenter to complete my own little 5.1 (i have a pair of superones and a DIY sub)

Positronic: the room i set the system up in is pretty big and to get the sound up to what i would consider a good level for movies i had to crank the volume up pretty high on the Onkyo. now I'm not sure about the M5s but a friend of mine had an older set of VT-1.4s that he had hooked up to a sony receiver (it was their top of the line ES model at the time but i don't remember specifics) they sounded pretty nice and then one day he brought in a loaner bryston amp from a local shop. the difference was unbelievable. they honestly sounded like a whole different set of speakers. its funny because he called me over to his place and didn't tell me that he had the bryston hooked up and I remember asking him if he had gone out and bought new speakers. now obviously thats not the most scientific method of measuring what a different amp can provide and you might be totally happy with the sound from a nice AVR, but i think the benefit of a good clean amp definetly justifies the cost (well within reason...=)).

like i said i already got the setup for my parents..i'm currently in med school about to start residency...so getting anything for myself is not really feasible... well thats not entirely true...i've been keeping my eyes out for a used pair of SuperOnes and a SuperCenter to complete my own little 5.1 (i have a pair of superones and a DIY sub)

Positronic: the room i set the system up in is pretty big and to get the sound up to what i would consider a good level for movies i had to crank the volume up pretty high on the Onkyo. now I'm not sure about the M5s but a friend of mine had an older set of VT-1.4s that he had hooked up to a sony receiver (it was their top of the line ES model at the time but i don't remember specifics) they sounded pretty nice and then one day he brought in a loaner bryston amp from a local shop. the difference was unbelievable. they honestly sounded like a whole different set of speakers. its funny because he called me over to his place and didn't tell me that he had the bryston hooked up and I remember asking him if he had gone out and bought new speakers. now obviously thats not the most scientific method of measuring what a different amp can provide and you might be totally happy with the sound from a nice AVR, but i think the benefit of a good clean amp definetly justifies the cost (well within reason...=)).
Good luck with the Residency!

if you don't have an AVR with a top notch power amp section, and add a separate power amp (providing you have pre-outs to do so), it will be a very noticeable upgrade.

Can you describe the difference in more detail? I need to justify this for my wife :) I've read a few articles about it, but I'm interested in your opinion, especially with respect to M5s.

Yammy and Onk huh? Ordinarily I would have said "Yuck! - Those are about the two worst possible choices, get a HK, CA or NAD,", but believe it or not, I'm running one of those cheap Panasonic digital path AVRs on some M5s/L5s, and I'm amazed at how it sounds.



Mike, if you haven't already, you should jack the X2's low pass filter up as high as it will possibly go to prevent any nasty double filtering from going on since the 2.9 has it's own built-in internal fixed crossovers.

An old Quote by you but I have a pair of C3's a C3C and a pair of IC4's run by an XR25 in my smallish bedroom down here in Africa. I'm amazed by how good this sounds. The IC4's are on either side of my bed as surrounds and add some low end when needed. Yeah strange maybe but sounds good. Don't laugh.

I am probably going to use another XR25 in my bedroom in KC as I am getting rid of the old Sony receiver and ST4's, SB3's and SC2 and running M/L 5's (5.1) along with a set of U2's. Does this sound even crazier?

Larry

Can you describe the difference in more detail? I need to justify this for my wife :) I've read a few articles about it, but I'm interested in your opinion, especially with respect to M5s.

Well for one thing, more reserve power on tap for when you need it. Like when you are watching a movie that is relatively quite, and then all of the sudden there is a big, loud, powerful explosion out of nowhere in an instant. Same thing with music. And on a relatively inefficient speaker that is capable of very good dynamics like the M5, it really shows too. :D

I hate using stupid car analogies as it relates to audio, but in this case, it's the best one I can think of right now. It's like a VW and a Porsche are cruising along a back country road at 60 mph, and want to pass a school bus going up hill, and there's an 18 wheeler heading towards you in the opposite direction. Now, let me ask you, which car would you rather attempt the pass in - the VW bug, or the Porsche? :p

I am probably going to use another XR25 in my bedroom in KC as I am getting rid of the old Sony receiver and ST4's, SB3's and SC2 and running M/L 5's (5.1) along with a set of U2's. Does this sound even crazier?

Larry

Does the XR25 have the bi-amp capability like the 55/57 do so that in 2 channel mode, two amp channels are driving each sub in the ST-4s and one is the upper frequency drivers? If so, I don't think that sounds crazy at all. ;)

I still have it on the Sony...not being used while I'm gone. The Sony doesn't have anything like that. The ST4's are in a "hole" between furniture. Never sounded clean there. That's why I want to sell 'em off and go with outboard subs.

Larry

Here's more that can explain it better than I can:

https://home.comcast.net/~schiz/dual_amp.jpg

https://home.comcast.net/~schiz/tri_amp.jpg

I believe the SA-XR57 also allows dual amping of the mains during 5.1 too if I'm not mistaken.

This would be great on a pair of ST-4s.

I hate using stupid car analogies as it relates to audio, but in this case, it's the best one I can think of right now. It's like a VW and a Porsche are cruising along a back country road at 60 mph, and want to pass a school bus going up hill, and there's an 18 wheeler heading towards you in the opposite direction. Now, let me ask you, which car would you rather attempt the pass in - the VW bug, or the Porsche? :p
Here's the additional information you need for this problem: the Porsche is a 1955 356 1500S with 70 HP (the 1300 had only 40 HP), and the VW is an 2008 R32 with 250 HP and 232 ft-lb of torque, and a light rear end. The 356 is really light and might be fun on the track, but that hill climb problem might give it some issues... ;)

Peter

The A1 is 115v/230v switchable. I didn't see any info in the user manual of Power5 if that is 115v/230v or 115v only. Does anyone know?

No one knows?

By the way, I bought 5 L5s as well...

It's like a VW and a Porsche are cruising along a back country road at 60 mph, and want to pass a school bus going up hill, and there's an 18 wheeler heading towards you in the opposite direction. Now, let me ask you, which car would you rather attempt the pass in - the VW bug, or the Porsche? :p

The sound of the resulting crash will be reproduced better with an external amp.

I am still struggling to get the bass to sound the way I want with my T5s, but I think an external amp and dual A1s will go a long way. Then I can finally use the X1 crossover method #1 instead of the AVR.

So I've recently ordered a pair of Classic 4s and Classic 3c.

The AVR I have at the moment is a NAD T753 which, from what I've read, should be a good match for the NHTs. I don't know why, but I also decided to buy a used Emotiva LPA-1.

I haven't managed to find any NHT surrounds that I can afford at the moment so will probably run my old M&K B1500s until I do.

Would this be a good way of connecting it all?

Front Left and Front Right and center pre-outs of NAD to Channels 1,2 and 3 of the LPA1 respectively.
Sub 1 and 2 pre-out of NAD to Channels 4 and 5 of LPA1.

Channel 1 to Front Left top of C4 Left
Channel 2 to Front Right top of C4 Right
Channel 3 to C3
Channel 4 to Front left bottom of C4 left
Channel 5 to Front Right bottom of C4 right

Then maybe use the NAD's own amplifier for the surrounds?

What speaker settings should I configure in the NAD?

Any other suggestions how to connect/configure them?

I don't actually get the kit to my home for a couple of weeks as I'm travelling on business right now but would like to get familiarised with the setup now so that I can jump right in when I get home! :D

Thanks in advance!
Christopher

I haven't managed to find any NHT surrounds that I can afford at the moment so will probably run my old M&K B1500s until I do.Take a look at NHT absolute zero, matches nicely with what you have.

No one knows?

By the way, I bought 5 L5s as well...

Power5 can do both 115 and 230V, but it takes a little bit more than just click a switch. You have to open the case, change place of a jumper and put in a new fuse. Nope, never done it, just know it... :)

Mika

ok the time has come to purchase an amp for the mids+tweeter on my C4s...question: what would be the minimum power required for this amp(s)? Im looking at a couple of options:

1. Gainclone type amp of approximately 20wpc or so.
2. 25-? wpc pure class A eg Monarchy Audio SM Pro.
3. ???

Im up for ideas and suggestions. Im going to be using the Power5 front channel 200wpc for the woofers. Id like an amp that will shine in the mids and uppers...something that doesnt present an edgy sound...whatever that means...lol

Regards,
Ricky

ok the time has come to purchase an amp for the mids+tweeter on my C4s...question: what would be the minimum power required for this amp(s)? Im looking at a couple of options:

1. Gainclone type amp of approximately 20wpc or so.
2. 25-? wpc pure class A eg Monarchy Audio SM Pro.
3. ???

Im up for ideas and suggestions. Im going to be using the Power5 front channel 200wpc for the woofers. Id like an amp that will shine in the mids and uppers...something that doesnt present an edgy sound...whatever that means...lol

Regards,
Ricky


You probably need 100 watts for the upper drivers.

I would just use the Power5 direct to the C4's (AKA no bi-amping). That way you will not mess up the tonal balance of the speaker. 200 watts is more than enough to drive those speakers properly.

Looks like this thread has run out of gas!

Yeah. It got a short stay of execution from the influx of folk buying the close-out stuff.

Nothing really left to say until (if) NHT gets back on track. :(

Does the XR25 have the bi-amp capability like the 55/57 do so that in 2 channel mode, two amp channels are driving each sub in the ST-4s and one is the upper frequency drivers? If so, I don't think that sounds crazy at all. ;)


I realized the XR25's sub crossover only goes down to 100hz so have a new XR57 on it's way.

Larry

You probably need 100 watts for the upper drivers.

I would just use the Power5 direct to the C4's (AKA no bi-amping). That way you will not mess up the tonal balance of the speaker. 200 watts is more than enough to drive those speakers properly.

I agree, except that I don't think you really even need that much power for the upper frequency drivers over 125 Hz.

Bi-amping the Fours (or the VT-2.4s either for that matter) with the X2/A1s really didn't give them a lot more noticeable output over the Power5 driving them full range/large. It just gave more control over the bass with the X2 than anything.

I'm thinking of maybe picking up a sweet little tube amp like maybe 20 to 30 watts for the upper frequency drivers on the VT-2.4s, also above 125 Hz just like the Fours, and letting the main L/R channels of the Power5 drive the subs fed by an X2. :D

I realized the XR25's sub crossover only goes down to 100hz so have a new XR57 on it's way.

Larry

Congrats. For $200 or so, you simply can't beat the Panny 55s/57s. ;)

Yeah. It got a short stay of execution from the influx of folk buying the close-out stuff.

Nothing really left to say until (if) NHT gets back on track. :(

Just wait till ListenUp and/or Hi Def starts blowing out Xds at half price. ;)

Of course, even at half price, I still wonder how many M80Xd/S80s will actually sell. :p

Take a look at NHT absolute zero, matches nicely with what you have.

Plus 1 on that.

So I've recently ordered a pair of Classic 4s and Classic 3c.

The AVR I have at the moment is a NAD T753 which, from what I've read, should be a good match for the NHTs. I don't know why, but I also decided to buy a used Emotiva LPA-1.

I haven't managed to find any NHT surrounds that I can afford at the moment so will probably run my old M&K B1500s until I do.

Would this be a good way of connecting it all?

Front Left and Front Right and center pre-outs of NAD to Channels 1,2 and 3 of the LPA1 respectively.
Sub 1 and 2 pre-out of NAD to Channels 4 and 5 of LPA1.

Channel 1 to Front Left top of C4 Left
Channel 2 to Front Right top of C4 Right
Channel 3 to C3
Channel 4 to Front left bottom of C4 left
Channel 5 to Front Right bottom of C4 right

Then maybe use the NAD's own amplifier for the surrounds?

What speaker settings should I configure in the NAD?

Any other suggestions how to connect/configure them?

I don't actually get the kit to my home for a couple of weeks as I'm travelling on business right now but would like to get familiarised with the setup now so that I can jump right in when I get home! :D

Thanks in advance!
Christopher

Sounds like a a plan. If you ever get an X2, then maybe you could use the T753's main l/R amps for the upper frequency drivers on the Fours.

What's quoted in bold is as I understand it as well. These inputs completely bypass the digital section of the Controller entirely, although it can still do some limited bass management on them.

I don't see why the lack of HDMI 1.3 and maybe even the missing room correction too can't be addressed and solved by simply getting something like an Onkyo 705 or 805 AVR (or, if $$$ isn't an issue, even the new NAD pre-pro), and then running the pre-outs of it to the 5/7.1 channel analog inputs on the Controller. When using it for the newer hi-rez audio formats, simply set the Controller's volume at 0 for a unity gain (pass-thru) setting, and then simply use the AVR's volume control whenever using it as the decoder. Also, let the AVR handle all the bass management when it's being used.

This would solve the HDMI 1.3 issue relatively cheaply, and I don't see why the Audyssey MultEQ XT wouldn't work as well, but I don't think you could overlay the Controller's model specific speaker Deq over top of it though.

And finally, for regular, standard def DVDs with DD or DTS, simply run the players' digital outputs to the Controller's digital ins.

I'm going to put this theory to the test. I've just picked up an Onk 805 AVR, but it will prolly be the weekend before I get it set up.

I am still struggling to get the bass to sound the way I want with my T5s, but I think an external amp and dual A1s will go a long way. Then I can finally use the X1 crossover method #1 instead of the AVR.

What AVR do you have, and, describe in detail how you have it all set up to the X1?

Just wait till ListenUp and/or Hi Def starts blowing out Xds at half price. ;)

Of course, even at half price, I still wonder how many M80Xd/S80s will actually sell. :p

1. Bring it on...I want my Xds! Can I get the special black 'Darth Vader' model? :)

2. Prob next to none. Specialty product that doesn't have any business in the consumer market.

What AVR do you have, and, describe in detail how you have it all set up to the X1?

I have a Marantz SR 4001, http://us.marantz.com/Products/1867.asp, to power everything but the sub. I have a pair of T5s about 5 feet apart with the subs facing outward. There is a 46" LCD TV and stand between the speakers. I have an M5 center, and a L5 surrounds. The center channel speaker sits in the stand with the boundary switch set to 1. The T5s are 4 inches from the wall.

I'm using method #3 in the newer Evo manual. The Sub Pre-Out on the AVR connects to the X1 in mono mode. The X1 connects to an A1 that drives both B5s. The crossover is set at 80hz in the AVR, all speakers are set to small. The phase is set at 90 on the X1. Boundary EQ is set at +6. I calibrated the master gain using a digital Radioshack SPL meter and test tones. The response is fairly flat from 40-70hz. It is down about 6 decibels from 30-40 hz. It is up about 6 decibels around 80hz. It is flat again around 120hz or so.

I wasn't getting much bass until I increased the boundary EQ on the X1. Now I have good bass from 40-70hz. I adjusted the phase to get the maximum loudness on my SPL meter while playing an 80hz test tone. I assumed that louder meant in phase, but maybe that's the cause of the peak around 80hz?

I'm trying to get the first track of the "Consequence of Chaos" SACD to sound better. The bass guitar sounds muddy and hurts my ears. The bass on Mark Knopfler's "Sailing to Philidelphia" DVDA is much lower and sounds great.

Never mind - I just saw the news that NHT was back to Square 1!

Sold another Home Theater setup for NHT.
Childhood friend of mine called me up out of the blue and was dissatisfied with his longtime Klipsch Heresey set up.
He listens to a lot of guitar based stuff, acoustic and electric and reggae, etc. Basically listens to just about eveything except rap.
I agreed that the klipsch system was wanting and mentioned NHT.
He picked up the C3s at our dealer to demo, and when I came by his house to hear them I could tell the diffference in clarity and quality outside in the driveway.
he loves them and they sound great in his house. He has ordered
the 3c and some AZs.

I agree, except that I don't think you really even need that much power for the upper frequency drivers over 125 Hz.

Bi-amping the Fours (or the VT-2.4s either for that matter) with the X2/A1s really didn't give them a lot more noticeable output over the Power5 driving them full range/large. It just gave more control over the bass with the X2 than anything.

I'm thinking of maybe picking up a sweet little tube amp like maybe 20 to 30 watts for the upper frequency drivers on the VT-2.4s, also above 125 Hz just like the Fours, and letting the main L/R channels of the Power5 drive the subs fed by an X2. :D

I saw a Classe 70 (2x70wpc A/AB) amp for sale at the Gon and am waiting a reply...this looks to be a nice amp for the mids+uppers on my C4s...

Regards,
Ricky

Sounds like a a plan. If you ever get an X2, then maybe you could use the T753's main l/R amps for the upper frequency drivers on the Fours.

What would be the advantage of using the NAD for the upper frequencies compared with the Emotiva? :confused:

^^^ It would save two of the amp channels on the Emotiva for where it's power would be better utilized, like for surround channels or a second zone.

As already pointed out, you don't really need all that much power for the top end of the Fours over 125 Hz, but, you would need the X2 to do this since the gain is likely not the same between the T753 and the Emo. Without an X2, keep using four of the Emo's amp channels since their gain is guaranteed to match.

I saw a Classe 70 (2x70wpc A/AB) amp for sale at the Gon and am waiting a reply...this looks to be a nice amp for the mids+uppers on my C4s...

Regards,
Ricky

To say the least. ;) Do report back if you get it as to how it sounds.

I have a Marantz SR 4001, http://us.marantz.com/Products/1867.asp, to power everything but the sub. I have a pair of T5s about 5 feet apart with the subs facing outward. There is a 46" LCD TV and stand between the speakers. I have an M5 center, and a L5 surrounds. The center channel speaker sits in the stand with the boundary switch set to 1. The T5s are 4 inches from the wall.

I'm using method #3 in the newer Evo manual. The Sub Pre-Out on the AVR connects to the X1 in mono mode. The X1 connects to an A1 that drives both B5s. The crossover is set at 80hz in the AVR, all speakers are set to small. The phase is set at 90 on the X1. Boundary EQ is set at +6. I calibrated the master gain using a digital Radioshack SPL meter and test tones. The response is fairly flat from 40-70hz. It is down about 6 decibels from 30-40 hz. It is up about 6 decibels around 80hz. It is flat again around 120hz or so.

I wasn't getting much bass until I increased the boundary EQ on the X1. Now I have good bass from 40-70hz. I adjusted the phase to get the maximum loudness on my SPL meter while playing an 80hz test tone. I assumed that louder meant in phase, but maybe that's the cause of the peak around 80hz?

I'm trying to get the first track of the "Consequence of Chaos" SACD to sound better. The bass guitar sounds muddy and hurts my ears. The bass on Mark Knopfler's "Sailing to Philidelphia" DVDA is much lower and sounds great.

I looked at the back image of that AVR linked from your link, and it doesn't appear to have pre-outs/main-ins, so you do have the best (and really, the only) possible hook option available to you. A second A1 isn't really going to do any good unless you get another AVR, or, at least a 2 channel pre-amp/power amp combo (or an integrated amp) to integrate into the system that will allow you to take advantage of stereo bass.

All you can really do is to keep tweaking the X1's controls while using the fine tune flow chart in the Evo manual (it really works) to dial it in the best possible settings in your room. Assuming the room isn't too big for them, maybe a Velo SMS-1 will cure what ails you? ;)

All you can really do is to keep tweaking the X1's controls while using the fine tune flow chart in the Evo manual (it really works) to dial it in the best possible settings in your room. Assuming the room isn't too big for them, maybe a Velo SMS-1 will cure what ails you? ;)

My problem is that this is my first real system and I have no idea what this is supposed to sound like! I need to listen to a system that has been properly setup so I can figure this out. I'm going to give Room EQ Wizard a shot this weekend to see if I can use that to help fine tune the X1.

My room is about 2900 cubic feet (30x11.5x8.5).

Can you use another sub with the T5s? So, in effect, the T5s operate as Large Mains, and the Sub handles the LFE channel?

I plan on getting a 2 channel amp and another A1 in the future, I just need to figure out where to stash all of the equipment, there's not enough room in the TV stand :(

I just need to figure out where to stash all of the equipment, there's not enough room in the TV stand :( If I had a nickel for every time someone said that...welcome to the club. :p

If I had a nickel for every time someone said that...welcome to the club. :p

Around the time I added a turntable to my setup, I decided I was out of room. At that point I already had my A1/X1 on their sides up against the TV stand, and my Mac mini and Wii snuggled up on top of the base of my flat panel.

But the turntable was the last straw; had to pick up something from IKEA to start handling the overflow. Of course it was almost instantly full.

If I had a nickel for every time someone said that...welcome to the club. :p

Around the time I added a turntable to my setup, I decided I was out of room. At that point I already had my A1/X1 on their sides up against the TV stand, and my Mac mini and Wii snuggled up on top of the base of my flat panel.

But the turntable was the last straw; had to pick up something from IKEA to start handling the overflow. Of course it was almost instantly full.

I actually turned a coat closet into a roll-out equipment rack cubby. 43 rack spaces is a god-awful plenty, right?

Full within a year.

ok, here's what I have to work with:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2053/2257224043_ff9f7e2594.jpg

The speakers do truly have to sit in the bookshelves (where you can see the cheapy Polk RM 6750 stuff now).

From what I've seen/heard a pair of Absolute Zeros or Classic Two mains is what I am zeroing in on. Yes eventually I'll match it up with the 2C and NHT sub - but I need something better than those little Polks for 2 (or 2.1 channel music).

I'm wobbling back and forth between the AZs and Classic Two as my first purchase. Obviously the Two would be great but the AZs save budget for a new center channel down the road. My receiver has a phantom center mode in pro-logic that works decently and would get me by until the center arrives.

Any thoughts/suggestions from the peanut gallery? My room is rectangular - about 13' wide and 20' deep. Are the Zeros big enough or do I save my pennies for the Twos...?

My current receiver is an older Nakamichi AV300 which is 70W or 80W/channel IIRC.

I listened to both the AZ and Classic Two yesterday at the local AV store. Both sound wonderful but it was a completely different environment from where I plan to place them.

Fire away.

r

R,
What about rears? If budget is an issue then i'd start with the Az, save a little, get a C2C...save a little more then get the C2 and move the Az to the rear. Btw, noticed you have a Tivohd but the Nakamichi AV300 doesnt do dolby digital (?). Maybe you should consider updating your receiver down the road also...

Regards,
Ricky

Ricky,

Yeah, TiVo HD is there and yeah the Nak doesn't have digital throughput so my audio is supplied the old fashioned away (both from the Tivo and the Denon upconverting DVD changer). TiVo and DVD both have HDMI going to the tv, so when we watch something trivial we can just use the tv's audio.

A new receiver is on my list, but honestly the old Nak works pretty well so in a way I don't know what I'm missing out on.

Rears are a possibility down the road so that is a good suggestion.

Rmp

My problem is that this is my first real system and I have no idea what this is supposed to sound like! I need to listen to a system that has been properly setup so I can figure this out. I'm going to give Room EQ Wizard a shot this weekend to see if I can use that to help fine tune the X1.

My room is about 2900 cubic feet (30x11.5x8.5).

Can you use another sub with the T5s? So, in effect, the T5s operate as Large Mains, and the Sub handles the LFE channel?

I plan on getting a 2 channel amp and another A1 in the future, I just need to figure out where to stash all of the equipment, there's not enough room in the TV stand :(

B5s should be plenty for that room, but, if you really want more, I'd recommend adding a U2 set - a pair of W2s, another A1 to drive them, and then getting the 20 Hz mod to one of the X1s since you would then have the recommended 4 sub drivers for the mod.

Set the main L/R to large, and run sub out from the AVR to the LFE in on the X1 to answer your other question.

Edit - never mind that last sentence. I just remembered your AVR doesn't have pre-outs/main-ins, so all you can do with it is to set even the main L/R M5s as small/80 Hz and run the AVR's sub out to the X1's sub/LFE in. :p However, you could still add the W2s, another A1, and get the 20 Hz X1 mod. And, when you add a 2 channel amp for the main L/R, then you would in effect have the pre-outs/main-ins you need in order to run the T5s as large/full range speakers with stereo bass. ;)

ok, here's what I have to work with:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2053/2257224043_ff9f7e2594.jpg

The speakers do truly have to sit in the bookshelves (where you can see the cheapy Polk RM 6750 stuff now).

From what I've seen/heard a pair of Absolute Zeros or Classic Two mains is what I am zeroing in on. Yes eventually I'll match it up with the 2C and NHT sub - but I need something better than those little Polks for 2 (or 2.1 channel music).

I'm wobbling back and forth between the AZs and Classic Two as my first purchase. Obviously the Two would be great but the AZs save budget for a new center channel down the road. My receiver has a phantom center mode in pro-logic that works decently and would get me by until the center arrives.

Any thoughts/suggestions from the peanut gallery? My room is rectangular - about 13' wide and 20' deep. Are the Zeros big enough or do I save my pennies for the Twos...?

My current receiver is an older Nakamichi AV300 which is 70W or 80W/channel IIRC.

I listened to both the AZ and Classic Two yesterday at the local AV store. Both sound wonderful but it was a completely different environment from where I plan to place them.

Fire away.

r

Forget the Classics, get M5s for that EC and don't look back.

I actually turned a coat closet into a roll-out equipment rack cubby. 43 rack spaces is a god-awful plenty, right?

Full within a year.

When I added a Controller/Power5 to my office rig, since all the components are sitting on top of book cases only about 12" deep, I add to put them on top of an old Adcom CD changer I had.

It's feet will fit firmly and stably on the top of the book case, but yet it protruded far enough out in front with it's diameter in order to sit the NHT electronics on top of it in order to provide them with a stable base as well. Plus, it's built like a tank well enough that it can support the weight with no problems.

At first, it was only being used as a spacer only, but I have since ran the co-axial out on it to the Controller since I figured the Controller's DACs were obviously a lot newer and prolly better.

Forget the Classics, get M5s for that EC and don't look back.

M5s will work better than the classics with all of the boundary layers that I'm going to swamp them with, right?

So then it looks like I first need to hunt down three of them: L, R and center.

Any hints on where to start looking other than ebay (one currently listed), audiogon? At $400 a pop my budget just got stretched a bit.

thanks guys

rmp

M5s will work better than the classics with all of the boundary layers that I'm going to swamp them with, right?

So then it looks like I first need to hunt down three of them: L, R and center.

Any hints on where to start looking other than ebay (one currently listed), audiogon? At $400 a pop my budget just got stretched a bit.

thanks guys

rmp



I would think about some more if I were you. The M-5s were going for $200 to $230 delivered brand new in recent months. They are a discontinued product. You may not like the sound of the M-5s. The M-5s are also a large speaker, so check your dimensions.

As far as boundry EQ is concerned, when you buy a new receiver make sure that it has a 3 band EQ. That way you can apply boundry EQ to any speaker.

audiovideologic (they advertise on audiogon) has them for a discounted price (dont think i can quote the price) but just give them a call...thats where i ended up buying them from since the other slightly more discounted place was out of stock.....

I would think about some more if I were you. The M-5s were going for $200 to $230 delivered brand new in recent months. They are a discontinued product. You may not like the sound of the M-5s. The M-5s are also a large speaker, so check your dimensions.

As far as boundry EQ is concerned, when you buy a new receiver make sure that it has a 3 band EQ. That way you can apply boundry EQ to any speaker.

There is more to it than simply the boundary compensation. Provided you can find them at a reasonable price, and they'll fit, get the M5s to go in an EC over any Classics, even despite whatever eq functions the AVR or pre-pro may have. They still have a flat front baffle to fit flush with the leading edge of the shelves they will be on, and no Classics do, simple as that. The Classics strongest suit, their soundstaging, will literally be choked off in an EC while the VFIG of the M5s will not be affected nearly as much.

audiovideologic (they advertise on audiogon) has them for a discounted price (dont think i can quote the price) but just give them a call...

thanks for that. I'll call them. I need to measure to see if their 17.8" long side will fit in my book case (lying horizontal).

edit: looked at the bookshelf dimension (outside). Gonna be a tight fit for the M5 horizontally. I guess if the M5 is really my answer I can do some custom shelf height adjustment (drill new holes for the pegs).

BTW, my Nak receiver has simple Low/Med/High rotary knob EQ adjustments.

rmp

Originally Posted by positronic
My problem is that this is my first real system and I have no idea what this is supposed to sound like! I need to listen to a system that has been properly setup so I can figure this out. I'm going to give Room EQ Wizard a shot this weekend to see if I can use that to help fine tune the X1.

My room is about 2900 cubic feet (30x11.5x8.5).

My experience with rooms like this is that there are some nasty nulls / peaks in them, esp. in the bass region... try playing something with deep bass & walk / crawl throughout the room & listen for areas with lots of bass & areas with none to little...

EDIT: ok - let me finish this original reply I started on my phone, lol...

Do this even before you run REW. After you've checked the room for nulls/peaks, if you have any ability to move furniture / stereo equipment / or even add some type of bass trap material to the room, do this before you use REW as it may help with some of the lack of bass your experiencing. REW does a good job of tweaking and tightening the sound, but should be used as a final adjustment IMO.

As Mark and others stated, you should be getting decent bass with the T5's & A1.

A quick question on X1. My new NAD amp has a trigger input. But my AVR doesn't have trigger output. I noticed there are trigger terminal on the back of X1. Can X1 provide a trigger output for my amp?

Eric

Anyone have an email adress at NHT that is answered? I emailed them via the adress provided on the service page about getting my X1 modified for 20hz a week ago with no response.

Larry

A quick question on X1. My new NAD amp has a trigger input. But my AVR doesn't have trigger output. I noticed there are trigger terminal on the back of X1. Can X1 provide a trigger output for my amp?

I don't believe so, I think they just pass through a trigger signal. It wouldn't hurt to try, but pretty sure not.

Anyone have an email adress at NHT that is answered? I emailed them via the adress provided on the service page about getting my X1 modified for 20hz a week ago with no response.

Best to just call. They haven't been that good at returning service related e-mails to me either. I have a tech friend that is doing these as well and can get it done pretty quick. It's a pretty easy mod, just takes a bit of time and knowhow, he's done five for me so far.

I would think about some more if I were you. The M-5s were going for $200 to $230 delivered brand new in recent months. They are a discontinued product. You may not like the sound of the M-5s. The M-5s are also a large speaker, so check your dimensions.


Well, the M-5s are NOT going to fit lying flat as I hoped. About an inch too long for my shelf. The more I read about them though, it sounds like a good solution for my setup and the price certainly is good (right between the AZ and Twos I was previously considering).

Even if I don't like them (unlikely?) at the price they are currently selling for I probably wouldn't take a complete bath on them if I decided to re-sell.

I will have to modify my HEC to fit them upright but that shouldn't be too hard.

It is a little bit scary buying something like this blind but I've found pretty uniform praise for the M-5 just about everywhere.

rmp

I just bought an A1 from AudioVideoLogic and he mentioned that the new owners of NHT are bringing back the Evolution line. The website hasn't changed though. Can anyone else confirm this?

Well, the M-5s are NOT going to fit lying flat as I hoped. About an inch too long for my shelf. The more I read about them though, it sounds like a good solution for my setup and the price certainly is good (right between the AZ and Twos I was previously considering).

Even if I don't like them (unlikely?) at the price they are currently selling for I probably wouldn't take a complete bath on them if I decided to re-sell.

I will have to modify my HEC to fit them upright but that shouldn't be too hard.

It is a little bit scary buying something like this blind but I've found pretty uniform praise for the M-5 just about everywhere.

rmp

My friend that bought L5s on my advice, sight-unseen, is really happy with them so far. I don't think anybody that's gone for M5s or L5s at the sale price has been disappointed so far.

I don't think there's much risk for you buying them, but like you said, you should be able to recover reselling them anyway.

My friend that bought L5s on my advice, sight-unseen, is really happy with them so far. I don't think anybody that's gone for M5s or L5s at the sale price has been disappointed so far.


Well I pulled the trigger. Fingers crossed. This is really all of my "budget" at this point, so my next decision will be whether I completely box up the little old Polks (5.1 system) and do just a 2 channel system for a bit or if I mix and match them to get by.

I do also have a bigger Yamaha sub sitting around (a very old YST-SW80) that I could slide in the room to get a 2.1 system going but I'm curious to get to know the M5s running on their own.

Maybe I can even grab another M5 cheap of ebay to use as a center.

rmp

Need some advice on setup. I have a pair of classic 4s, a Classic 3C, IC3s, and a REL sub. All hooked up to an Integra DTR 7.8 (Onkyo 805 equivalent). So far I've just run the Classic 4s jumpered. The AVR has bi-amp capability via the unused surround amps, and I've been thinking of experimenting, but am wondering what the benefit of bi-amping this way is? I understand the benefit of using NHT's crossover and amps but is there any benefit in using the built-in bi-amp feature that Onkyo and other AVR receivers are coming with?

Anyway, for anyone familiar with the latest Onkyo AVRs, these are my current settings and some reasoning that I suspect has a lot of holes in it. So any setting me straight that anyone can offer would be greatly appreciated. If I configure the AVR for a sub, the lowest high pass filter I can set for LFE is 80Hz. I think it should be set to more like 45-50Hz since that's where the Classic 4s drop off. But that's not an option at the Onkyo. So at the REL I've got the cross-over set to 50hz, thinking the AVR will send everything below 80Hz then the REL will only reproduce below 50Hz. Is this true or false? And in telling the AVR that I have a sub will it filter out everything below 80HZ to the front L/R even if I configure the fronts in the receiver to be full range? I guess what I'm getting at is that my Classic 4s seem to be lacking in base a little bit. Which isn't a big problem because the REL does a great job but I can't help myself, I love to tinker. So this weekend I'm going to configure the receiver for no sub to see if it was filtering out some of the lows to the fronts. Just curious as to what everyone's opinion was on this. Also would like to know if there's any benefit to using the bi-amping capability of the receiver or not to bother until I can get separates and so it right. Thanks in advance. And PS, I haven't read the board since the beginning of November, picked up where I left off, started to read all the craziness that has happened with NHT since then, but haven't finished. I don't know if they're still in business or not but will finish catching up tonight and am hoping for the best.

Well, the M-5s are NOT going to fit lying flat as I hoped. About an inch too long for my shelf. The more I read about them though, it sounds like a good solution for my setup and the price certainly is good (right between the AZ and Twos I was previously considering).

Even if I don't like them (unlikely?) at the price they are currently selling for I probably wouldn't take a complete bath on them if I decided to re-sell.

I will have to modify my HEC to fit them upright but that shouldn't be too hard.

It is a little bit scary buying something like this blind but I've found pretty uniform praise for the M-5 just about everywhere.

rmp


I bought three of the M-5 for use up front. Mark, John and Jack Hidley like the sound of the M-5s, so I bought them blind based on that and just a little research. I was going to use the SuperZero XU's for surrounds, but then they had that low sale price on the L-5s. So I bought three of those for surround use.

I suggest that you grab three M-5's while they are in stock if you can swing it.

There are some SuperZero XU's on E-bay right now. They do blend well as surrounds with the M-5's, so you may try to grab those on the cheap if you need good surround speakers. You could even get by using one SuperZero XU for a center speaker.

I suggest that you grab three M-5's while they are in stock if you can swing it.


There is a used M5 on ebay right now. If it stays cheap I may try to grab it. It's not really great looking, but in my setup the center is pretty hidden anyway.

Thanks for the tip on the surrounds.

rmp

There is a used M5 on ebay right now. If it stays cheap I may try to grab it. It's not really great looking, but in my setup the center is pretty hidden anyway.

Thanks for the tip on the surrounds.

rmp


I hate beat up speakers, but you are right. You will never see the damage.

I would try to pickup the three SuperZero XU's on the cheap. I have been using SuperZero's for surrounds for over ten years. Great surround speaker. Small size, great sound. The XU's come with a wall mount bracket. If you mix them with M-5's, just wire them in reverse polarity.

Just remember, there will always be another speaker for sale. Never bid up the price too high.

Had my T/M5s for about a couple of weeks now. 90% HT & 10% Music

Exceptionally happy. Still trying to figure out how NHT as a company could be so ineffective. I teach, a plan to put it back together would be a great MBA capstone course. A really great product as long as you are willing to pay for enough power to drive them. Fortunately, we usually listen below reference levels.

Very clear dialog, great sound (dolby) even better in 2 channel stereo.

There are real advantages to a sealed enclosure and the boundary switch as far as placement.

Thanks again kudos to the guys who built the product and all here.

-glenn

Need some advice on setup. I have a pair of classic 4s, a Classic 3C, IC3s, and a REL sub. All hooked up to an Integra DTR 7.8 (Onkyo 805 equivalent).

Anyway, for anyone familiar with the latest Onkyo AVRs, these are my current settings and some reasoning that I suspect has a lot of holes in it. So any setting me straight that anyone can offer would be greatly appreciated. If I configure the AVR for a sub, the lowest high pass filter I can set for LFE is 80Hz. I think it should be set to more like 45-50Hz since that's where the Classic 4s drop off. But that's not an option at the Onkyo.




The LFE filter has nothing to do with anything except LFE.

The Integra DTR 7.8 has individually adjustable filters for all of the speakers. The Integra can set the mains to 40 and 50 Hz. Recheck your speaker menu.


"The following crossover frequencies can be specified:
Full Band, 40 Hz, 50 Hz, 60 Hz, 70 Hz, 80 Hz (THX),
90 Hz, 100 Hz, 120 Hz, 150 Hz, or 200 Hz."

Just remember, there will always be another speaker for sale. Never bid up the price too high.

Yup. specially with how reasonable the new ones are at this point.

The LFE filter has nothing to do with anything except LFE.

The Integra DTR 7.8 has individually adjustable filters for all of the speakers. The Integra can set the mains to 40 and 50 Hz. Recheck your speaker menu.


"The following crossover frequencies can be specified:
Full Band, 40 Hz, 50 Hz, 60 Hz, 70 Hz, 80 Hz (THX),
90 Hz, 100 Hz, 120 Hz, 150 Hz, or 200 Hz."
Yep, that's true about the fronts. The high pass filter is very flexible and can be set down to 40Hz. What I meant to refer to, and mistakenly referred to as the high pass filter, was the low pass filter of the LFE channel. It can only be set between 80-120Hz. So it seems there might be some overlap there between the fronts and the sub unless I set the high pass filter of the fronts to 80Hz. I'm a little fuzzy here, this may only be true though if using the double bass feature of the receiver (sends front low frequencies to sub) or in my case specifically with the REL, because it hooks up both to the LFE and also connects to the fronts, so is already picking up lows from the fronts even without double bass turned on. In which case if I set the crossover at the sub to 40-50Hz I guess I should be okay?

One question about the Classic 4s. Their impedance is rated at 6 ohms. Anyone know what the impedance of each set of terminals is when taking off the straps? My AVR manual says to only use speakers with an impedance of 8 ohms or higher if bi-amping. I deduced from this that when taking off the straps on the 4s that the impedance drops at each set of terminals. Possibly significantly. Now from my EE classes in college, the terminal impedance wouldn't drop to a sum of 6 ohms because the straps connect, at the very least, the woofer with the 3 other drivers in parallel, not series, which is not a summing formula. How the 3 upper drivers connect internally I do not know. So I'm thinking that the manual is concerned that in bi-amping a set of terminals might drop below 4 ohms of impedance which is below what the amp is rated for. So I called NHT yesterday to ask what the impedance is on each set of terminals on the 4s with the straps off. Didn't catch the name of the guy that answered, but he says that each set of terminals is still 6 ohms with the straps off. I'm scratching my head at this, can anyone clear up my confusion? I may have to pick up a meter this weekend and measure myself.

Yep, that's true about the fronts. The high pass filter is very flexible and can be set down to 40Hz. What I meant to refer to, and mistakenly referred to as the high pass filter, was the low pass filter of the LFE channel. It can only be set between 80-120Hz. So it seems there might be some overlap there between the fronts and the sub unless I set the high pass filter of the fronts to 80Hz. I'm a little fuzzy here, this may only be true though if using the double bass feature of the receiver (sends front low frequencies to sub) or in my case specifically with the REL, because it hooks up both to the LFE and also connects to the fronts, so is already picking up lows from the fronts even without double bass turned on. In which case if I set the crossover at the sub to 40-50Hz I guess I should be okay?





You should reconsider your connections. Each speaker group had it's own crossover (individual HP and LP filters) in the receiver. The LFE channel has its own LP filter (LFE is not the subwoofer channel). The receiver's subwoofer output mixes all the bass for you based on your speaker settings.

You should never connect the mains output and the subwoofer output to a subwoofer. If your speaker distances are not identical, the bass will mix in an out of phase manner. Use only the subwoofer output on your receiver, or only the R & L outputs with subwoofer set to OFF. The subwoofer output method is best.


http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/1206nht34/index6.html


Set your R & L mains crossover to 50 Hz, and let the receiver do the rest. Set the center and surround crossovers to whatever applies. 80 Hz is a good starting place if you have small center and surround speakers. Set LFE LP filter to where it sounds best (start at 120 Hz). The LFE does not go to the mains with your setup, so there is no overlap. Set your REL LP filter to MAX.

So, the subwoofer output jack will get bass below 50 Hz from your R & L mains, plus bass below 80 Hz from your center and surrounds, plus bass below 120 Hz from the LFE channel (the .1 of a DVD when there is an LFE signal).







One question about the Classic 4s. Their impedance is rated at 6 ohms. Anyone know what the impedance of each set of terminals is when taking off the straps? My AVR manual says to only use speakers with an impedance of 8 ohms or higher if bi-amping. I deduced from this that when taking off the straps on the 4s that the impedance drops at each set of terminals. Possibly significantly. Now from my EE classes in college, the terminal impedance wouldn't drop to a sum of 6 ohms because the straps connect, at the very least, the woofer with the 3 other drivers in parallel, not series, which is not a summing formula. How the 3 upper drivers connect internally I do not know. So I'm thinking that the manual is concerned that in bi-amping a set of terminals might drop below 4 ohms of impedance which is below what the amp is rated for. So I called NHT yesterday to ask what the impedance is on each set of terminals on the 4s with the straps off. Didn't catch the name of the guy that answered, but he says that each set of terminals is still 6 ohms with the straps off. I'm scratching my head at this, can anyone clear up my confusion? I may have to pick up a meter this weekend and measure myself.



The drivers are not in parallel. The internal speaker passive crossover only feeds each driver with a certain amount of audio bandwidth. So 6 ohms is pretty constant throughout the audio range.

The bass driver probably dips to 4 or 5 ohms, but give bi-amping a try just for the experience of doing so.

You should reconsider your connections. Each speaker group had it's own crossover (individual HP and LP filters) in the receiver. The LFE channel has its own LP filter (LFE is not the subwoofer channel). The receiver's subwoofer output mixes all the bass for you based on your speaker settings.

You should never connect the mains output and the subwoofer output to a subwoofer. If your speaker distances are not identical, the bass will mix in an out of phase manner. Use only the subwoofer output on your receiver, or only the R & L outputs with subwoofer set to OFF. The subwoofer output method is best.


http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/1206nht34/index6.html


Set your R & L mains crossover to 50 Hz, and let the receiver do the rest. Set the center and surround crossovers to whatever applies. 80 Hz is a good starting place if you have small center and surround speakers. Set LFE LP filter to where it sounds best (start at 120 Hz). The LFE does not go to the mains with your setup, so there is no overlap. Set your REL LP filter to MAX.

So, the subwoofer output jack will get bass below 50 Hz from your R & L mains, plus bass below 80 Hz from your center and surrounds, plus bass below 120 Hz from the LFE channel (the .1 of a DVD when there is an LFE signal).









The drivers are not in parallel. The internal speaker passive crossover only feeds each driver with a certain amount of audio bandwidth. So 6 ohms is pretty constant throughout the audio range.

The bass driver probably dips to 4 or 5 ohms, but give bi-amping a try just for the experience of doing so.
Thanks for the great feedback. I'll do some experimenting based upon your advice. Makes sense that I should change the current "full band" setting for my center and surrounds so that their lows are sent to the sub. The REL is a bit of a different animal it seems. I've got a T series. Take a look at it's setup if interested.

http://www.rel.net/index2.htm

They hookup both to the mains and LFE channel. I guess REL would rather pickup the front lows right from the terminals rather than have it redirected by the AVR to the LFE.

You mention the drivers are not in parallel. You're referring to the 3 upper drivers connected internally with the straps removed, correct? Because the straps seem to me to be connecting the woofer in parallel with the upper 3 from the amp's perspective. I guess I still don't understand how the woofer by itself can be 5-6ohms and the entire 4 drivers with the straps on also 5-6ohms. Got to freshen up on my EE.

Thanks for the great feedback. I'll do some experimenting based upon your advice. Makes sense that I should change the current "full band" setting for my center and surrounds so that their lows are sent to the sub. The REL is a bit of a different animal it seems. I've got a T series. Take a look at it's setup if interested.

http://www.rel.net/index2.htm

They hookup both to the mains and LFE channel. I guess REL would rather pickup the front lows right from the terminals rather than have it redirected by the AVR to the LFE.

You mention the drivers are not in parallel. You're referring to the 3 upper drivers connected internally with the straps removed, correct? Because the straps seem to me to be connecting the woofer in parallel with the upper 3 from the amp's perspective. I guess I still don't understand how the woofer by itself can be 5-6ohms and the entire 4 drivers with the straps on also 5-6ohms. Got to freshen up on my EE.


You have a decision to make. Either follow REL's recommendations or NHT's. You can not have it both ways. No matter what you try, the ported subwoofer of the 4s will interfere with the REL if you do not high pass the speaker. The REL method does not high pass the 4s.

If you only use the subwoofer output on your receiver, then when you are in the two channel mode the subwoofer will be OFF.

If you use the REL method, the subwoofer is available at all times. That LFE input should not be used however. Just set the subwoofer output to OFF and all bass will be sent to the R & L main speakers (and the REL via high level connections).

I prefer to use my main speakers without a subwoofer for music at times, so I just use the subwoofer output jack on the receiver (as well as bass management).

That REL site makes a lot of assumptions. One assumption is that you have a two channel system connection setup and have no bass management. If you have a two channel setup with no bass management, then the REL connection method may work properly. NHT says otherwise (due to ported 10" driver).

By the way, there is nothing special about the REL connection method. I used it for years. Current bass management is a major improvement over that old fashioned connection method.

I would try to pickup the three SuperZero XU's on the cheap. I have been using SuperZero's for surrounds for over ten years. Great surround speaker. Small size, great sound. The XU's come with a wall mount bracket. If you mix them with M-5's, just wire them in reverse polarity.


Ok then, another question - I see NHT SuperZero and SuperZero XU's both on ebay. Are they the same thing, or is the XU a different speaker altogether?

Thanks,

ryan

"That REL site makes a lot of assumptions. One assumption is that you have a two channel system connection setup and have no bass management. If you have a two channel setup with no bass management, then the REL connection method may work properly. NHT says otherwise (due to ported 10" driver)."

By bass management are you referring to the current AVRs ability to set high pass filters and send what's below to the LFE channel?

"If you only use the subwoofer output on your receiver, then when you are in the two channel mode the subwoofer will be OFF."

Interesting, didn't know that. My 12 year old Onkyo 727 sends 2 channel lows to the sub out. If I set a high pass filter of the fronts at, say 50Hz, I wonder why this new AVR wouldn't send the lows out the LFE? That is a consideration. The 4s sound pretty good with 2 channel and the sub off. But the sub does add something.

Of course the sub does have a variable low pass filter of it's own. So in theory if I could set it at exactly where the 4s cut off then I think there would be no overlap.

I just wanted to be perhaps the first person in AVS speaker forum history to make the 7000th post on a speaker thread. Carry on. :D

I just wanted to be perhaps the first person in AVS speaker forum history to make the 7000th post on a speaker thread. Carry on. :D

As good as my Classic 3 bookshelfs sound, NHT deserves it :).

"That REL site makes a lot of assumptions. One assumption is that you have a two channel system connection setup and have no bass management. If you have a two channel setup with no bass management, then the REL connection method may work properly. NHT says otherwise (due to ported 10" driver)."

By bass management are you referring to the current AVRs ability to set high pass filters and send what's below to the LFE channel?

"If you only use the subwoofer output on your receiver, then when you are in the two channel mode the subwoofer will be OFF."

Interesting, didn't know that. My 12 year old Onkyo 727 sends 2 channel lows to the sub out. If I set a high pass filter of the fronts at, say 50Hz, I wonder why this new AVR wouldn't send the lows out the LFE? That is a consideration. The 4s sound pretty good with 2 channel and the sub off. But the sub does add something.

Of course the sub does have a variable low pass filter of it's own. So in theory if I could set it at exactly where the 4s cut off then I think there would be no overlap.

It has been discussed ad nauseum on this thread about adding a sub or subs to Fours, but what JPC is trying to tell you can prolly be summed up best here in this quote of Jack's:

Regarding comments made about low-end output, NHT recommends a couple different options if users want to extend bass output or extension.

If listeners want more bass output or control, do what Michael did, bi-amplify the towers with the X2 crossover and two A1 power amplifiers. This will give them more control of the bass as well as more output capability by increasing the amplifier power available to drive the 10" subwoofers over that of what a typical receiver can supply.

However, if even more bass extension is desired, it is necessary to use a subwoofer with bass response below 20Hz and very high output capability. This subwoofer should be low-passed around 40-50Hz, with the Four high-passed around the same frequency. This will probably require an active crossover with phase adjustment such as the X2, since the adjustments found in most surround processors will not be adequate to properly integrate the Four with the subwoofer. Ideally, end-users should use an acoustic measurement device too, provided they know how to use it properly.

We don't recommend using the Classic Fours with an external subwoofer covering the same frequency range. At some frequencies, the output from the external subwoofer(s) will add to that of the Fours and at some frequencies it will cancel the output from the Fours. The results will be worse than having no external subwoofer at all.

from:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/1206nht34/index6.html

IOW, if your sub doesn't go well below 20 Hz, don't even bother using it as it's simply not even worth it. ;)

Ok then, another question - I see NHT SuperZero and SuperZero XU's both on ebay. Are they the same thing, or is the XU a different speaker altogether?

Thanks,

ryan



Pretty much the same thing. The original SuperZero has that gloss piano black finish, and no built in screw holes for a wall mount. The SuperZero XU has a nice molded composite matte black case with a threaded insert in the back. It comes with a wallmount and a rubber base for shelf mounting (as long as they were not lost by the owner). Read the instruction manual at NHT-hifi for details (vintage products).

Both models sound the same to my ears (I still own both models). I like them for surround use because they are have a small case size. They do not stick out and say look at these huge speakers. For example, and older SuperOne does sound bit better (AKA slightly deeper bass) than a SuperZero. However, they just look huge mounted on a wall.

The NHT L-5's are a PREFECT match for the M-5s and are a better speaker (and a great deal right now), but they are quite large. I bought mine while they are "cheap", but I am not sure whether I am going to use 2 or 3 L-5s for the surrounds or if I will use the SuperZeroXU's.

Like I said, if you have to wait a bit for financial reaons these speakers do show up fairly often on E-bay. I always pass on beatup speakers, and wait for the speakers that have nice cases.

"That REL site makes a lot of assumptions. One assumption is that you have a two channel system connection setup and have no bass management. If you have a two channel setup with no bass management, then the REL connection method may work properly. NHT says otherwise (due to ported 10" driver)."

By bass management are you referring to the current AVRs ability to set high pass filters and send what's below to the LFE channel?





Yes, but the word is crossover (high and low pass at same frequency). Highs to the main speaker, lows to the subwoofer.






"If you only use the subwoofer output on your receiver, then when you are in the two channel mode the subwoofer will be OFF."

Interesting, didn't know that. My 12 year old Onkyo 727 sends 2 channel lows to the sub out. If I set a high pass filter of the fronts at, say 50Hz, I wonder why this new AVR wouldn't send the lows out the LFE? That is a consideration. The 4s sound pretty good with 2 channel and the sub off. But the sub does add something.




That is a tricky issue. Two channel modes vary unit to unit.

In my receiver, I have 2-channel analog out with no processing. I have two channel out with digital processing (EQ but no BM / subwoofer). I also have auto select which turns on the digital processing (BM and subwoofer).







Of course the sub does have a variable low pass filter of it's own. So in theory if I could set it at exactly where the fours cut off then I think there would be no overlap.


The REL connection method is fine except for the lack of a high pass filter on the fours. The fours are ported, and at the port tune frequency phase reverses 180 degrees. Even with a High Pass filter (BM via small crossover at 50 Hz) there may still be a fight between the mains and the subwoofer at various frequencies. As long as you know what trouble to look for, I say experiment. Just remember the more you experiment with connection methods, the more you want to experiment!


I would try it both ways myself (AKA I have been there, done that) and pick what works best for you. There is no absolute right and wrong way to do these connections. Just leave the double bass set to OFF if you use the REL method.

I just wanted to be perhaps the first person in AVS speaker forum history to make the 7000th post on a speaker thread. Carry on. :D


I was not paying attention. I could have easily made post 7000 myself!

The Super Zero has a 1/4"-20 threaded insert in the back of the cabinet for a wall bracket just like the SZXu has, but a wall bracket was not included with the speaker.

The minimum IMPEDANCE (not resistance) at each set of input terminals on the Fours is going to be 6ohms or so. The impedance at the upper terminals will be 100ohms at 30Hz, 50 ohms at 60Hz, 20ohms at 100Hz, and 6ohms at 150Hz. Above 150Hz it will vary between 6 and 15ohms. The woofer input will have an inverse curve. 6ohms at 30Hz, 10ohms at 60Hz, 20ohms at 100Hz, 100ohms at 200Hz, etc. The impedance goes up above the crossover frequency of the woofer on the bottom terminals because there is a LP filter in series with it. The impedance goes up below the crossover frequency of the woofer on the upper terminals because there is a HP filter in series with it. When you combine both of these impedance curves in parallel, you get a resulting curve that is roughly a constant 6ohms at all frequencies, sort of. I've way oversimplified this for the sake of the example.

The X1/X2/A1 will not generate a trigger output signal. They only pass through a trigger signal from an upstream component.

NHT is currently repairing a lot of internal damage that was done by people that are thankfully gone from the company now. It may take a couple weeks for them to catch up with everything like customer service e-mails.

Jack - Any chance you'll be back at NHT?

I just wanted to be perhaps the first person in AVS speaker forum history to make the 7000th post on a speaker thread. Carry on. :D
And if it weren't for your posts, that number would be about 2000. :p

The minimum IMPEDANCE (not resistance) at each set of input terminals on the Fours is going to be 6ohms or so. The impedance at the upper terminals will be 100ohms at 30Hz, 50 ohms at 60Hz, 20ohms at 100Hz, and 6ohms at 150Hz. Above 150Hz it will vary between 6 and 15ohms. The woofer input will have an inverse curve. 6ohms at 30Hz, 10ohms at 60Hz, 20ohms at 100Hz, 100ohms at 200Hz, etc. The impedance goes up above the crossover frequency of the woofer on the bottom terminals because there is a LP filter in series with it. The impedance goes up below the crossover frequency of the woofer on the upper terminals because there is a HP filter in series with it. When you combine both of these impedance curves in parallel, you get a resulting curve that is roughly a constant 6ohms at all frequencies, sort of. I've way oversimplified this for the sake of the example.

Darn it, Jack. You beat me to it. I was just about to submit that exact post! ;)

Ouow - do you realize how lucky we are to have this kind of input? I certainly do. I, too, had forgotten about impedance vs. resistance. Doh!

Peter

It is good to see that you are still "checking in" on us Jack. Hope life is treating you well.

It is good to see that you are still "checking in" on us Jack. Hope life is treating you well.

I agree
Thanks Jack

Allen

And if it weren't for your posts, that number would be about 2000. :p

I just checked, and counting this one, I now have 1607 posts in this thread. :o

So even if you take all my posts away, this would still be the second biggest thread here in the speaker forum in terms of number of posts. ;):p

BTW - what are your thoughts on the T5s now since you've had a little more time with them, and, have you got a pair of L5s yet?

Jack - Any chance you'll be back at NHT?

Lets all hope, providing he wants to of course.

Just remember, there will always be another speaker for sale. Never bid up the price too high.

True, unless it's an absolute no brainer, like some of these recent Evo, SD Classic, and Controller/Power5 close out deals for example, there will always be another train pulling into the station sooner or later. ;)

Well, the M-5s are NOT going to fit lying flat as I hoped. About an inch too long for my shelf. The more I read about them though, it sounds like a good solution for my setup and the price certainly is good (right between the AZ and Twos I was previously considering).

Even if I don't like them (unlikely?) at the price they are currently selling for I probably wouldn't take a complete bath on them if I decided to re-sell.

I will have to modify my HEC to fit them upright but that shouldn't be too hard.

It is a little bit scary buying something like this blind but I've found pretty uniform praise for the M-5 just about everywhere.

rmp


The main L/R will be much better for music anyway vertically.

I just bought an A1 from AudioVideoLogic and he mentioned that the new owners of NHT are bringing back the Evolution line. The website hasn't changed though. Can anyone else confirm this?

He prolly meant that they will eventually be bringing back a next generation of Evos.

Had my T/M5s for about a couple of weeks now. 90% HT & 10% Music

Exceptionally happy.

Congrats.

Still trying to figure out how NHT as a company could be so ineffective. I teach, a plan to put it back together would be a great MBA capstone course.

I'd say it's a combination of a lack of both marketing and availability.

Unfortunately, Bose just goes to prove that those two factors are far more important than actual engineering from a business perspective in this industry. :(

True, unless it's an absolute no brainer, like some of these recent Evo, SD Classic, and Controller/Power5 close out deals for example, there will always be another train pulling into the station sooner or later. ;)


I was talking about used speakers sold on E-bay.

As far as absolute no brainer sales are concerned, I ended up with a full Evolution system even though I was not looking to buy one. I would call that looting the train after it crashed.

By the way I bought a used X-1 crossover off of E-bay to play around with. There seems to be a problem with the adjustable LP filter on one channel. The printed circuit board was updated in early 2007 to correct this PC board error. I wonder if NHT ever corrected any of the defective units before they were shipped out.

He prolly meant that they will eventually be bringing back a next generation of Evos.
FWIW, last I checked the Evo line on the website had been moved from the current section, to the vintage section, then back again to the current section.