NHT can do the same, but they have to believe in their dealers

True, they would have to.

if I get put under, then OneCall doesn't have a free New Mexico demo facility.

Or get the benifit of your touring, mail order demos either.

"hey, NHT, thanks for allowing OneCall to make Xd a laughing stock".

You hit the nail on the head.

PD50U,

They are only allowed to advertise a price the manufacturer approves of.
Sony calls it "low book". I don't know what the others call it.
But if you call them the actual sales price is usually lower.

If they advertise a price the manufacturer doesn't approve of then
they will not get coop advertising and they won't be a dealer much longer.

The reason they have a low book price is to stop dealers from getting into price wars.
If Circuit City and Best Buy start tryingto outdo each other then all the small dealers
in town will go out of business. Then only CC and BB are left, and Sony(in this example)
will sell less product because there are fewer retailers.

The way I see it, if you support your local dealers fully, provide them with unlimited product and sales support, then they will sell all the product that you need.

I guess NHT doesn't feel that way or they wouldn't give online dealers so much leeway.

John, are you saying that if you were to sell a customer Xd (or any other NHT speaker) for the same discounted price that OneCall advertises that you would be breaking your agreement with NHT? I find that to be absurd, and a great way to lose local dealers. Such a policy pits local dealers in an uphill battle against online dealers.

If NHT is going to engage in a Bose style price-fixing policy (let's call it what it is) then you and other local dealers should get together and demand that online dealers follow the policy as well. Otherwise, NHT should drop the policy and allow local dealers to discount and ship out of state so that they can compete with the online guys.

Well, the fact is, OneCall is violating, publicly, NHT's price restrictions, unless they exempted them or simply are looking away. So, no, I can't match them according to my agreement. I have one of their catalogs here, my customers get angry and bring them in when they get them, not because they are angry with me, but because they are angry with NHT and OneCall.

Well, the fact is, OneCall is violating, publicly, NHT's price restrictions, unless they exempted them or simply are looking away. So, no, I can't match them according to my agreement. I have one of their catalogs here, my customers get angry and bring them in when they get them, not because they are angry with me, but because they are angry with NHT and OneCall.

You know what I do when Manufacturers make it hard for me to make money or favor other online dealers?? I stop selling their product! Simple as that. I'm in business to make money, lots of it preferably and if a manufacturer doesn't provide any support, makes my job harder or doesn't appreciate my efforts to promote their stuff then screw them.

It's a nice thought to go with what you feel is best but if selling something else that's up to your customer's expectations makes more money then I say go for the profit! That's what Americans are best at!

Don't get me wrong I love my NHTs but from a business standpoint I would have already made plans to put them on the back burner if I were you. Working together is far better than working alone. :(

I have always thought that the exemption to price fixing regulations for these manufacturerers is an absurd anachronism on the face of it. The argument that it allows authorized dealers to provide a requisite level of service just doesn't hold up in the age of the internet and third party service providers for warranties and installations.

If Alimentall and other high service retailers can survive internet resellers he should survive them through a reputation and services that customers are willing to pay for in an open market (like the reputation he is building here).

Trade ins and demo units are the typical way to get around price floors. Give an inflated trade in value then wholesale or retail the traded in item. The result is the same, a discount. I also see dealers that just happen to have a demo or open box version of lots of items and always have more.

The playing field should be level though. I am sure Alimentall has people stop in his shop, try things out then buy on the internet because it is cheaper. NHT and other manufacturers should not be allowed to tie his hands with price restrictions and Alimentall should have no superior selling position because he is an "authorized dealer" helping to maintain NHTs "reputation" as a higher-end manufacturer. Most authorized dealers don't know there behind from their front end, Alimentall does.

If you can make a living selling services that people are willing and able to pay for, so be it. That is why so many bricks and mortar retailers have gone under and why so many former audio/video equipment retailers now make their living through consulting and installation services, if they are still in the business at all.

Congress should do away with this anachronism and let the chips fall where they will. In the mean time we deal with a corrupt set of customs supported by contract law and lots of "gray market" goods.

I still cant see where Oncall is charging less.I look on their site and see all the prices at retail cost except what has a $25 or $500 dollar spring coupon attached.$500 bucks off of $5500 isnt a big deal.Im sure Onecall is hurting showroom dealers pocketbooks but I dont see how they are doing it openly as you describe. All I know is all this negative shite is making me want to go with a company that stands behind their dealers,and advertise products that are readily available... And NHT isnt doing anything like that.Their just telling us they have shipped over a week ago and noone on earth has sited them yet.Did they ship these by moped or what???NHT just may not be a company I can stay behind much longer,if at all.Damn shame...cuz I think their products are top notch for the money. I'm going to wait till April 7 to see a tracking # and if nothing has shipped by then,I give up.All this negativity makes me negative....sheesh.

They do this over the phone, J&R always gives lower prices over the phone as well. You can haggle.

It gives the appearance of compliance without the effect for those who are price sensitive.

I feel NHT4LIFEs pain. I put my deposit down on a pair of Classic Threes in the beginning of October. I have been told every two weeks since Thanksgiving "Two more weeks".
I called my dealer yesterday and guess what I was told...you guessed it, "Two more weeks". This is the last two weeks that I plan to wait. I am becoming bitter at this point.
I think NHT is making fools out of us all and this homeboy ain't goanna take much more!
There are plenty of other great speakers out there. With any luck, maybe I will find a manufacturer that is willing to sell their products.

I still cant see where Oncall is charging less.I look on their site and see all the prices at retail cost except what has a $25 or $500 dollar spring coupon attached.$500 bucks off of $5500 isnt a big deal.

I'm pretty sure that Xd retails for $6,000. OneCall is advertising them for $5,500 + another $300 off with a coupon, which is about a 13% discount.

C'mon people.
Do any of you actually read the replies in this thread?
What OneCall, J&R or whoever advertises their stuff for and what they can and do sell it for are 2 completely different things.
The manufacturer determines what low book is and the dealers have to comply in their advertisements or risk
their relationship.

Tim916,
your math is waaay off m8.a 10% discount off of a 5,000 dollar set of xd's would be 500 bucks so, 300 off of 5000 sure as heck isnt a 13% discount.

I feel NHT4LIFEs pain. I put my deposit down on a pair of Classic Threes in the beginning of October. I have been told every two weeks since Thanksgiving "Two more weeks".
I called my dealer yesterday and guess what I was told...you guessed it, "Two more weeks". This is the last two weeks that I plan to wait. I am becoming bitter at this point.
I think NHT is making fools out of us all and this homeboy ain't goanna take much more!
There are plenty of other great speakers out there. With any luck, maybe I will find a manufacturer that is willing to sell their products.

I have emailed NHT a number of times using a number of email accounts in regards to the delay, but I have never received a reply. I will place a call in the morning. I bet I will hear these famous words, “Just a few more weeks”

I guess I am lucky in that I have not placed a deposit on any speakers and have been taking the approach of wait and see, but this has gotten ridiculous. How can a company of this size not return emails or for that matter post on their website why the delay.

Their website has not been updated from their last post on providing speakers for the Olympics that ended over a month ago. I think its time for me to move on. It’s been 4 months from the time Alimentall had introduced me to the NHT line. What’s sad is that Alimentall is caught in the middle of this situation. It’s very obvious he is very proud of these speakers but at the same time NHT is leading their distributors along and not being up front with them as well as the consumer.

Tim916,
your math is waaay off m8.a 10% discount off of a 5,000 dollar set of xd's would be 500 bucks so, 300 off of 5000 sure as heck isnt a 13% discount.

Please read my post more carefully. OneCall is selling the $6,000 Xd for $5,200. You do the math.

Please read my post more carefully. OneCall is selling the $6,000 Xd for $5,200. You do the math.

you would be correct....sorry....NHT has my brain fried ATM....

what can I say ...my favorite company adopting my favorite aluminium driver :D

OneCall is ADVERTISING the Xd for $5,200.

I am sure OneCall and some NHT dealers would sell it for less than that.

I have always thought that the exemption to price fixing regulations for these manufacturerers is an absurd anachronism on the face of it. The argument that it allows authorized dealers to provide a requisite level of service just doesn't hold up in the age of the internet and third party service providers for warranties and installations.

Why doesn't it "hold up"? The idea is that many decent speaker manufacturers want their product to earn it's reputation amongst audiophile customers by standing toe-to-toe with other brands in comparison situations in the few remaining stores that can do a decent demo. They know that as demo opportunities decrease, price will sell rather than an undemonstratable "claimed" sonic superiority. Nht and other decent brands cannot win in Big Box retailers against the marketing jaugernauts and price points of well established, common name brands. So they are targeting people who will seek out comparisons and better gear. If they don't ensure a proper margin level that is neccesary to maintain a higher-end showroom, then these places will stop carrying them (and go to a brand that rabidly protects neccesary margins) or these companies will reduce good staff, showroom size, number of units available for demo, or else they will die. pEOPLE CONSTANTLY GO TO BETTER PLACES FOR HELP AND DEMO OPPORTUNITIES AND THEN GO TO EVERY WHAREHOUSE CUSTOM OPERATION for the best price, the lowest overhead wins and therefor you are rewarding ******** dealers who can cheapen the brand and sell for less.

If Alimentall and other high service retailers can survive internet resellers he should survive them through a reputation and services that customers are willing to pay for in an open market (like the reputation he is building here).

Many people have no compunction about traveling many miles to hear a system well set up , complaining that there are no decent dealers with anything on display in their area but will then go back and order from that guy because of price. It's easier to get people to support better service if price is equal. I'm sure most hear would rather buy from a local showroom, well maintained with knowledgable staff and many products to compare, and if everyone is selling at the same price, they will support the "better" dealers.

Trade ins and demo units are the typical way to get around price floors. Give an inflated trade in value then wholesale or retail the traded in item. The result is the same, a discount. I also see dealers that just happen to have a demo or open box version of lots of items and always have more.

Trade-in are bull$!t unless it's trade-ups from equipment you already sold these people, I'm not a pawn shop, they junk up a store take up space, draw in Donnie Dirtball, and the prices you have to give on them are so low, you are doing a customer a discervice by not recommending he sell the equipment on Ebay.

The playing field should be level though. I am sure Alimentall has people stop in his shop, try things out then buy on the internet because it is cheaper.

Duh.

NHT and other manufacturers should not be allowed to tie his hands with price restrictions and Alimentall should have no superior selling position because he is an "authorized dealer" helping to maintain NHTs "reputation" as a higher-end manufacturer.
It's NHT's decision as to how they want their products represented, though they don't seem to be making a good one right now (or at least there is ambiguity). An authorized on-line entity or two would be fine as long as no shenanigans with price chainging is going on.

Most authorized dealers don't know there behind from their front end, Alimentall does.

If people keep supporting cr@ppy ones because they tout price over quality, it won't get any better. I remember when there were scores of great, knowledgeable, guys in this buisness, but now most have left because there are too few places left where they can make good money.

If you can make a living selling services that people are willing and able to pay for, so be it. That is why so many bricks and mortar retailers have gone under and why so many former audio/video equipment retailers now make their living through consulting and installation services,

But with Johny Custom, no showroom, work out of his home/wharehouse types, your demo opportunity has just died. Support places where you can go and compare and listen to multiple brands. In the long run this is what will force manufacturers to keep making better and better product that outshines the competion, otherwise speakers become commodity items like HTIBs
.
Congress should do away with this anachronism and let the chips fall where they will. In the mean time we deal with a corrupt set of customs supported by contract law and lots of "gray market" goods.

Congress should allow (and does) buisness partners to develop whatever dealer contracts both parties are happy with.

I am very close to just going with another set of Zeros maybe Twos... Now that I have the 2C I've got a nice frontal sound field. :confused:

By the way it's safe to say there was no container of NHT 3s on a boat in January, February. Unless they arrived and were damaged or defective.

Here's a example I found this on AudiogoN


NHT Xd 2.1 on SALE !
MSRP $ 6,000 on SALE $4498 Call today
DEQX CalibrationTM-XdA DSP/amplifier design-Wider Soundfield with Significantly Reduced Distortion-some say the BEST loudspeaker design EVER!-800-889-XXXX

$5500 - $300 = $5200 = 5.45 %

I'm pretty sure that Xd retails for $6,000. OneCall is advertising them for $5,500 + another $300 off with a coupon, which is about a 13% discount.

Please read my post more carefully. OneCall is selling the $6,000 Xd for $5,200. You do the math.

If they went by boat it had better be a speed boat at this point cuz Im giving it another 10 days.If I see no speakers by then I will go with Revels Concertas.I heard them last week and they sound good enough for me.Id rather get them(Revels) and be done with this shite game NHT is playing with its dealers and customers then sit for another month,or longer and have nothing but another quote from NHT saying they shipped last week.Yet noone on earth has posted a review or sighting since I was told this by NHT about 10 days ago.How long does it take to ship from NHT to dealers?OH damn,I forgot its NHT were talking about.If they took months to travel across the sea it may take weeks to travel across the states.If any bigwigs @ NHT are reading this:your guys in Marketing suck !!! Or should I/we blame Vinci Labs for all this crap.Either way...this still sucks

Will that mean you'll be changing your name to...

REVELS4LIFE?

Nhn

Okay, let me be the voice of reason here. *Nobody* is more pissed off at NHT than I am. Nobody. I could get into detail but I'd prefer not to. That being said said, the product, in the end, is worth it for the consumer. For me? Sometimes I wonder. But for the enthusiast, it's tremendous. You get to live with NHT the product. *I* am the one that has to live with NHT the company. So, over the next 6 months, I'm going on a *major* full frontal assault to try to get the things changed that need to be changed. And I'll make it happen. I'll sell enough product in the next month or two that they have no choice but to listen. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater. I'll handle the BS, you guys hang out a bit and enjoy the product. It is coming. Overdue, but coming. All this crap like transshipping, undercutting, inappropriate advertising, product announcements, product support, these are the things I'll deal with in the next several months. When I need some backup, I may come to some of you to lend a hand. But this is all about music and movies and fun, it shouldn't be about anger and vitriol. Yes, they may deserve some of it, but it also hurts you guys too. You should be able to enjoy the product untarnished by anger or frustration. Let me deal with this and I'll keep you up to date.

Jack SM. Having read your pitiful excuse for a post on this page, you appear to be one of the most arrogant, self indulgent people I have seen on the internet which is saying a lot. " Donnie Dirtball?" Bet people can't wait to see your cheery face as you look down your nose at them! I have always supported my local dealers over the years, but its arrogant ****holes like you that have pissed off soooo many customers over the years that even when you are right, your patronizing attitude is so obvious that anyone who does not have his nose in the air as high as you beats a fast retreat from your "salon" as fast as their feet can carry them. Your arrogance is the biggest argument for ID dealers who ALWAYS put customer service first and show tremendous patience with young and new customers. You have said you are in the midwest as am I. Let me know where you are so I can warn the unwary.

nicely said John.I back you 100% and believe me,going to another brand would be like giving up 1 of my kids.If it werent the fact that I like how passionate you are about the brand that I too believe is outstanding as far as bang for the buck goes I would have jumped ship long ago on NHTs antics.But,that being said,and I know that I going elsewhere would hurt both of us in ways, I will wait this out.I know they are going to be worth every penny speakerwise.But,its all the added crap thats making it hard for us all.If you need another voice,I will be there for you.And despite what some haters here say,alot of us enjoy reading your posts and hope that youll hit this thread more although its not as good when theres not an arguement between you and the OB involved :p

My GF I think would kill me at this point as well if I didnt wait for the Classic Threes.She is so excited for me and my anticipation of finally opening up the boxes and hooking up the speakers Ive wanted so bad....

John, you're a hell of a guy. More small specialty shop owners need to be like you. I run into jerks shop guys all the time in scuba shops as well as A/V shops. They're the reason so many people go online to buy their gear, and they also bitch about it the loudest... but you are the embodiment of what can make a local shop great.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled program.

*I* am the one that has to live with NHT the company.

Except as all this may indicate their potential for problems with service and after sale support. Hopefully not, but it may make one wonder. Also , unsatisfied dealers does not bode well for the long term viability of the company, nor does the devaluation of the product through internet double-dealing.
I hope they realize this and work all these issues out for your sake John, you're quite the advocate.

LOL Shadow....long live "Donnie Dirtball" !!!!.....that was a pretty snobbish statement made.It was a dealer like that that kept me from going local with NHT in the first place.Thanks John for dealing with us "common" folks.Being a student I cant afford to buy from ID's cuz I simply cant afford to send the stuff back and lose the shipping back as I did with some Axioms.After about 3 failed attempts to find the speaker I feel beats my NHT's Id be forced to buy some little AZ speakers.Which wouldnt be a bad thing but I want something bigger and better.

Sorry if the aliterative name "Donnie Dirtball" offended, I obviously wasn't talking about you, or the average individual, but I don't want to project a pawn shop atmosphere as there are many "Frank Fleemarkets" that do not represent a target demographic many would wish to pursue. I used the little joke names, like many use "Joe6pk", etc. just to be a bit funny, if you find it is harsh, I apologize, it was not meant to hit close to home for anyone here. Everything you do in buisness is to attract the customer you want, advertising is sculpted that way, and much money is spent on marketing to discover a target demographic. You might take a kinder view if you were to understand that many honest people that I know in this industry will go to great lengths to explain to customers how the Orion bluebook for audio works and how little they will get from a store relative to what it can fetch in a private sale situation. I once Told a gentleman trying to sell two nice older Conrad Johnson amps thatI could only offer him half of what he could get on EBAY. When he told me how he had no idea of how to go about an ebay sale I wrote it down for him and pulled up a VERY comporable product an d printed out that listing. Weeks later he came in flush with slightly more that we even expected that he made, and bought some new gear. Of course I could have told him that the amps were only worth half of that, taken them on trade, and bought them myself for what I paid him. Pawnshops provide a service for desperate people and sell to the notoriously thrifty, I'm sorry if I don't target these two demographics.
Would you recommend to a friend to sell his used gear to a store, or on ebay or audiogon?

What pisses me off the most is that NHT won't say why they are running behind schedule. You call them and they just lie. If they just came out and said, "You know what, we've had some set backs and we expect them to be available on such and such a date", I could understand that. But no, they make their big announcement back last year and continue to not deliver and keep silent. I'll probably still buy them, that's what sucks!. I hate you NHT!

Yes it is a bit said that they do not communicate - which makes one speculate that it may have been a big problem that they do not want to air. Hopefully they are/have correcting/corrected the problem in a proper way.

A question: would a NHT Zbracket (an older version of an omnimount bracket) work with the classic zero?

I cannoot find the omnimount ten locally and websites do not want to ship internationally - a bit of a b%^$@!

Thanks

As I stated in a earlier post I am on my last two week wait for My Classic Threes.
I didn't mention that I also ordered the Center Three at the same time. My plan was to
put together a respectable HT system. I have the NHT sw10i sub and was planning the AZs for the rears.
At this point I want to formulate plan B, as it is becoming more apparent that NHT
has no plans to ship their product. I would appreciate any suggestions .
My criteria is to have stand mounted front speaker that can perform without the use of a sub.
Since I had a custom stand built to house my HT system, the center can not be physically larger
than the Center Three. (Talk about putting the cart before the horse)
The dimensions of the room are 15' x 20'. The system must carry with a working mans price tag. There are many great speakers out there so I am sure I can come up with a system that I can live with.
Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

There are many suitable products if the current scenario bothers you, but, as with every speaker purchase, you should do direct comparisons.

As my personal sales tool, it's pretty pathetic! But then, I'm really not trying!

Wow! Really?

I have one of their catalogs here, my customers get angry and bring them in when they get them, not because they are angry with me, but because they are angry with NHT and OneCall.

John, I definately understand your frustration, I am having a similar problem with Elite plasmas at the moment, even though no one has them in stock, there seems to be a price war. That being said, I have never read a post where, or had a customer in my store that was angry that a manufacturer was letting someone sell something cheap, or mad at the discounters for doing so, it is ALWAYS anger directed towards the dealer who won't (can't) match these prices. People seem to think that price matching is a birthright. I will price match when reasonable, and not when it's a bad buisness decision, and I will not violate dealer agreements, and expect manufacturers to enforce their policies with all dealers, internet or B&M.
If price was the same everywhere, people would support those that they liked best and that offered more service than the other guy. better demo facilities, better/knowledgable staff (like you), better response time on service or questions, better policies (loaners, in-home demos, no restoching fees, swap-outs insted of repairs, etc), more brands to compare, etc. Instead, the desire to save a buck trumps all else, and all the rest over time disappears for all but the wealthy.

For what it's worth, I spoke with Andy at NHT and he says the 3C will arrive at NHT on Monday and the Threes would arrive on Thursday. Hopefully everyone can take a nice, deep breath and hang in for a bit.

I got my 622 Dish receiver, so things do show up and when they do, you quickly forget about the wait. Or it's more like "yeah, I had to wait for these babies, but it was worth it!" :)

Wow! Really?

Yes, really. I'm just trying to support NHT, they need it and, when they're shipping, deserve it. There isn't that much discussion about them. Way more about ID brands and mass market brands, which is a shame. It's not just NHT, but, to me, any brand that offers better performance for less money.

Instead, the desire to save a buck trumps all else, and all the rest over time disappears for all but the wealthy.

I don't entirely buy this. Most people just want to feel *special* and saving some money is the "cheapest" and easiest way to get that feeling in a world of indifference. The very first thing I demonstrate to my customers is a) I'm a nice guy (no, really!!! :) ) and that I actually do care about the performance they receive and b) I know more than anybody else in town. And that helps make them feel special. One of the things that helps is that I know most all of my customers by name and when I'm demonstrating stuff, people come in and I'm like "Hey Mike, hi Steve" and they quickly notice that my store is more like a family and that they kinda like it when people know their names because it makes them feel special. I get to know their kids, their wives, etc and we don't fight about prices. That being said, I do maintain a *very* low overhead, unlike most salons, and I don't have employees and I just sell by myself and a friend does all of the installations. So people who care know that they're getting a good price and that *everyone* gets the same price. When someone goes for the deal of the lifetime, I explain our "sale price" and that it is there for everyone and that my best and dearest customers pay that. I also tell them that "hey, look, I want us to be friends, the last thing I want is to see you walk into the store and think 'oh, jeez, here we go again'" and they actually get that. I have had a few hagglers, mostly foreigners, who couldn't grasp the concept that they weren't *more* special than everyone else, but it is always fun saying "sorry, this isn't for sale" or, my tried and true method - "It's $500" "I'll give you $400" "I'll take $600" "You just said it was $500!" "Yes, but I didn't know we were haggling, so I'm raising the price" "You can't do that!" "I just did, or do you want to stop now and take it for $500?" "What about $475?" "How about $525?" "Fine, I'll take it for $500". Or, when a guy I know can afford it says "I've got a lot of money and I plan on buying a lot of stuff" and I say "oh, good, you can afford this, because all of my poorer customers can" or when they say "I want a better price" and I'll say "oh, I'm sorry, this may be too expensive, let me show you something you can afford" and they say, with much indignation "well, money isn't the issue, I can afford whatever I want!!!" and I say "Oh, good, then we're set". :) These really do work. But, I prophylactically have good enough prices that people always say, with pride "You know, I could still save a few bucks on the internet, but I like you and want to keep you in business, I need you here". And I feel good, they feel good.

IOW, I think the big determiner is if you really make the customer feel that you really are on their side and aren't just selling at high prices to squeeze every dollar out of them. I find that most high-end salons have that atmosphere and quickly push away anyone looking for value to concentrate on the people that want the feeling of "oh, yes, i paid full retail, but they bend over backwards for me when I walk in". Kind of like that big tipper or "celebrity" feeling. In the end though, I think the salons are missing the boat. One of my competitors, I hear, said something like "yeah, we're glad John takes all the 'hobbyists' and traders so we can concentrate on the serious audiophiles" :rolleyes: Talk about classist! But that's how I get some of my really great "hobbyist" customers. They may get the increasingly small group of people that will simply throw money at the solution and buy everything they say, but the world is my demographic and I kinda like that. Sometimes I have to put a $5K or $10K customer on hold for a minute to talk to a little old lady about her needle on her old POS all-in-one stereo, but they get that.

For what it's worth, I spoke with Andy at NHT and he says the 3C will arrive at NHT on Monday and the Threes would arrive on Thursday. Hopefully everyone can take a nice, deep breath and hang in for a bit.

With all due respect... we have heard similar statements in the past.
At this point I find it hard to believe anything NHT is saying.
Monday is here and I must know. Did the shipment of 3Cs arrive?
Hope you have some positive news. I would love to eat my words, and
kick myself for have ever doubted NHT's integrity.

FYI: For anyone looking for immediate replies from John Ashman, do note that his New Mexico A/V Forum was hacked yesterday. So, I'm guessing he may have his hands full at the moment.

With all due respect... we have heard similar statements in the past.
At this point I find it hard to believe anything NHT is saying.
Monday is here and I must know. Did the shipment of 3Cs arrive?
Hope you have some positive news. I would love to eat my words, and
kick myself for have ever doubted NHT's integrity.

I was told today that the 3Cs are in the US at customs, but haven't arrived yet at NHT yet. Of course, that was Mary and it isn't her primary concern, so she asked me to call back in the morning to talk to the one of the sales guys who could be more specific.

FYI: For anyone looking for immediate replies from John Ashman, do note that his New Mexico A/V Forum was hacked yesterday. So, I'm guessing he may have his hands full at the moment.

Yeah, sorry guys, it's a minor hack, but a major pain in the butt. I've more or less isolated the issues and am still trying to figure out how eliminate them. I was able to hide the problem from users, but it seems adept at preserving itself from elimination thus far.

Just wanted to note that I've decided to go with Evolution series speakers rather than Classics for our upcoming HT. I needed to make some decisions before construction started and didn't feel comfortable going with the new speakers without hearing and seeing them first. That, and there is already so much that supports the choice of the Evolutions. I also have to wonder how much business NHT is losing by their ambiguous communication regarding release of the new line.

Thanks for the input of those on this forum. BTW, while John's love for NHT does seem to verge on head-over-heels blindness (and we all know how dangerous that can be) I want to say that he was reluctant to sell to me over the phone given the availability of a local dealer. His comments (taken in context, and put in the perspective of other more objective opinions) were certainly helpful for me. I will be purchasing from a showroom dealer rather than over the internet.

Good luck for those of you anticipating the purchase and/or arrival of the new speakers--I'll read this thread to hear what you think of these speakers.

KK

BTW, while John's love for NHT does seem to verge on head-over-heels blindness......

Hmmmm, I don't know about that. Ask NHT how much I love them and you'll get a different answer! I give them a lot of hell and make sure they keep on the straight and narrow (or make them miserable when they don't). I am very seriously pressing the point that they need to have stuff *in production* before announcing it and that they are not filling all the critical holes in their line. I complain that Evo isn't very attractive (which is the main reason they're going to kill off the tower versions). I complain that there is no "ZeroC" or a real "TwoC" (that actually matches). I complain that the subs should all be dual woofer/acoustic suspension by now. I complain that their internet presence is poor, that they need to keep striving for better customer service and communication with dealers and endusers and a BUNCH of other things, trust me. It's not love, it's more like a dysfunctional relationship based on great sex, you know, when you're just screaming at her one minute, then rip her clothes off. It ain't love, but it beats boring. I've never seen any other company take such a consistently no-compromise approach to affordable speakers before. The Three is so badass, it just makes me shiver to think about it. I will admit it gets a little co-dependent sometimes though.

Did they ship yet?

Not yet. I just got a message back from Jeff at NHT and they're expecting the container of 3Cs (black) to arrive late today, early tomorrow. They're here in the US, just not quite *there* yet. Threes should just be a day or two behind. Port security throws a whole new wrench into the works.

<snip> I complain that Evo isn't very attractive (which is the main reason they're going to kill off the tower versions) <snip>.

What makes a speaker attractive is such a subjective thing, and is so specific to an individuals personal taste and the decor one intends to place them in, that manufacturers are forced to take calculated risks with any approach they take. Go conservative and you may very well capture those buyers looking for neutral looking speakers; while alienating those wanting something more compelling in their livingroom. Go daring and you may turn off as many as you turn on. Tough choices to make, considering the size of investment required. Some manufactures try to be all things to everyone, but that rarely ever works out well. Consider also, you now have the HT revolution with its need for adding eight boxes to the equation, and you quickly see how improbable the task of pleasing everyone really is.

As to the Evo not being attractive; I would beg to differ. Although I do agree that the tower version of the M5/M6 is an awkward, cobbled together looking sort of tower sytem at best, as its painfull looks are really a function of trying to blend those clunky looking bass modules with the more elegantly proportioned monitors placed on top of them. While I realize plain and clean looking equates to boring for some, I personally do find the more neutral grey painted finish on the Evos a refreshing change from the sea of either wood or all black offerings. The style is more contemporary than many would prefer, but I'll bet some do like the fact that the Evos have a finish that doesn't require them to try and either match or contrast contrast with all the other various woods in their house (i.e. furniture, floors, kitchen cabinets, etc.), as it can be an agonizing process to undertake for many of us.

Interestingly enough, I just received a mailer from Audio Advisor that featured the new NHT Classic speakers. The flyer showed a living room with a pair of Classic Four towers, ThreeC center channel speaker and Twelve (or Ten?) subwoofer; all shown in the new glossier piano black finish. When you see the Classics in something other than a isolated shot on a white background (like NHT's web site) and in a less high style home, they just look out of place to my eye. Coincidentally, they had it shown with a Pioneer plasma with its glossy black frame; which reminds me of one of the down sides to placing glossy black things near flickering bright light sources: all those damned distracting reflections! Of course, what most people that have never owned something this shiny and black never think about until after the fact [those who have had black cars will nod in agreement here], is that every spec of dust that lands on it becomes instantly visible!

Personally John, I think you should be bitchin' to NHT about how gawdawfull those Xdes look in the red and cream paint, or even the baby poop "special dark" finish. I had to chuckle that one guy is putting up his unplayed Xd system on audiogon, simply because he got the wifey veto after pulling just one speaker out of the box. I'll bet the Xdes would look far better in the finish they use for the Pro Audio line. The Classic black finish on the Xdes would likely be preferred to the current two-toned paint schemes; but I do understand NHT's need to somehow distinguish them from the Classic line; however, (IMO) they seriously missed on this particular styling effort. The XdA amplifier really missed the styling mark as well, IMHO. NHT especially needs to work on the style for all their new elctronic products. The new Controller and Power 5 electronics are prime examples of this, but the Controller's unique feature set may get some to look past its undistinguished face, as it can always be hidden out of sight.

John...have you heard the Three?

Personally John, I think you should be bitchin' to NHT about how gawdawfull those Xdes look in the red and cream paint, or even the baby poop "special dark" finish. I had to chuckle that one guy is putting up his unplayed Xd system on audiogon, simply because he got the wifey veto after pulling just one speaker out of the box. I'll bet the Xdes would look far better in the finish they use for the Pro Audio line. The Classic black finish on the Xdes would likely be preferred to the current two-toned paint schemes; but I do understand NHT's need to somehow distinguish them from the Classic line; however, (IMO) they seriously missed on this particular styling effort. The XdA amplifier really missed the styling mark as well, IMHO. NHT especially needs to work on the style for all their new elctronic products. The new Controller and Power 5 electronics are prime examples of this, but the Controller's unique feature set may get some to look past its undistinguished face, as it can always be hidden out of sight.

Have you seen the Xd in person? Looks much better than in pictures, at least the standard color does. I'd imagine the special dark looks better in person as well.

When you see the Classics in something other than a isolated shot on a white background (like NHT's web site) and in a less high style home, they just look out of place to my eye.

That's an interesting observation.

When I bought my AZ's to replace my SB3's in my 2CH rig, I was thinking that I would just have to live with their styling, which did not immediately grab me.

After a few months though, the SB3's just look like plain black boxes, while the AZ's have really grown on me. I am now to the point that I think they look cool (form following function, perhaps?).

I read a quote once in a car mag talking about style. It said that you will likely grow tired of a car who's style that you immediately love, versus something that takes time to appreciate.

I would also say that I am unconvinced on the look of the Xd's, but not having had them in my living room for long term observation (nor am I likely to do so anytime soon!), I reserve the right to change my mind!

Brian

As to the Evo not being attractive; I would beg to differ.

I didn't say they were ugly, I rather like them, but I wouldn't call them beautiful. Most people think they're "sufficiently attractive" at one extreme to "butt ugly" at the other. The monitors themselves certainly aren't ugly. In a different finish, they'd be pretty cool, actually. But they are practical. They blend in and most people find that, in a normal environment, they blend in enough to be essentially unnoticeable.

Personally John, I think you should be bitchin' to NHT about how gawdawfull those Xdes look in the red and cream paint, or even the baby poop "special dark" finish.

Well, a reasonably sized minority of people love the look. The red/maple is hit or miss because it has two non-neutral colors. I'd prefer gray or silver/maple, but it is what it is. The special dark is actually very attractive to the grand majority people. I'd like to see a lighter cherry with black, but I doubt we'll see it unless the "classic" finish dies off because of "special dark".

I had to chuckle that one guy is putting up his unplayed Xd system on audiogon, simply because he got the wifey veto after pulling just one speaker out of the box.

I doubt that happened. I don't see the ad, but I'll bet it's a dealer trying to get around shipping/pricing restrictions. People rarely make a $6K purchase without running it by the wife.

The XdA amplifier really missed the styling mark as well, IMHO.

Huh. Everyone who's commented thinks it's very attractive. I think it's beautiful for a simple box.

NHT especially needs to work on the style for all their new elctronic products. The new Controller and Power 5 electronics are prime examples of this, but the Controller's unique feature set may get some to look past its undistinguished face, as it can always be hidden out of sight.

I'm pushing for a "titanium" finish, but I don't know if that is going to fly or not. They did say they might try it to see if it looks good. I'm sure it would. With no real surface features, the look is "none more black"

John...have you heard the Three?

I have.

Well, maybe NHT can borrow a page out of the NAD playbook, ala their highly tasty new Master Series gear? Not a direct copy mind you, only the inspiration to make the products look like their actually worth what they are charging for them. Both products cost relatively the same sort of money; one looks like a million buck, and the other looks like it was a DIY project scrounged from somewhere on the Net.

If I dropped $6K on speakers, I'd be more interested in the sound myself...to each their own priorities I guess.
I buy for performance, others buy for looks...maybe because their realized performance doesn't always measure up to the looks they went for? I'd also prefer the speaker co. put as much R&D $ as possible into the performance...

I don't want to look at them, I want to enjoy listening to them.

I think the Xd color combination is pretty ugly, too. I'm also of the opinion that the whole setup has too many curves. The only analogy I can come up with is that of the BMW 5-series Chris Bangle re-design. The special dark is better than the two-toned version, but I'd still not be thrilled with having them front and center in a living room. Good thing that I can't justify spending that much on two channels--if I could, I'd be wrestling with an inner debate about form vs. function.

I have found that people are either startled or blown away by the looks, but even the detractors warm up to it over time. I think, like any radical design, it has to "settle in" to your mind before it looks good. There are vehicles that I thought were ugly at first and now love. CDs that I couldn't stand and now are my favorites. It's just the way it works. And, yes, it looks better in person. And as mentioned above, it's a very dense, poured composite, not plastic (and MDF). More like Corian countertops. Incredibly low resonance.

You know, I stayed up later than I normally do last night, just so that I could fully answer the questions asked of me here; only to see this morning, that last night's efforts were a total waste of my time. AVS had a problem with the time stamping on one of their servers, so my posts were among the 450 deleted from yesterday and early this morning. For me, the moment is lost and I don't feel like trying to re-write was lost.

Detail are here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/announcement.php?f=92&announcementid=92

<snip> And as mentioned above, it's a very dense, poured composite, not plastic (and MDF). More like Corian countertops. Incredibly low resonance.

By definition, the Xd cabinet material IS plastic. Plastic is not just a singular material, but rather, it is also a process by which certain types of material are formed or manufactured. The word plastic comes from Latin plasticus of molding and from the Greek plastikos from plassein to mold or form. The noun is defined by Merriam-Webster as:

1 : a plastic substance; specifically : any of numerous organic synthetic or processed materials that are mostly thermoplastic or thermosetting polymers of high molecular weight and that can be made into objects, films, or filaments

For those that are curious about what the cabinets are actually made of, Chris Byrne at NHT detailed this in their May 2005 (http://www.nhthifi.com/press/newsletters/May-2005.html) newsletter. Here is some of what he said:

"We are now focusing much of our new product R&D efforts on experimentation with unique materials. The BMC (bulk molded compound) employed in our new NHT Xd line, for example, is constructed of resin, fiberglass, some bits of wood, and even metal powder. This mixture does require tooling to create the proper shapes.

"...we are constantly experimenting with new finishes comprised of polyester-based, solid particle paints."

So, by definition, the Xd stands and cabinets are made of, and painted with, plastic materials. Now granted, this is very nice plastic; and even notably acoustically inert plastic; but it is still, nevertheless, very much PLASTIC.

I think you said this

But I'm not saying "yellow sucks, I like green"; I'm saying that I don't like the color combination on the Xd system, not the colors themselves. While I might wear a pair of khaki colored pants and a maroon shirt, I'm not sure I want to live with the same colors formed in to plastic speakers and stands and then placed in my living room. Favorite colors are not as random as you may think. For car makers; red, black and white are perennial classics by a fair margin; the others come and go, but those seem to endure. The analogy about cars is not a particularly good one, as you spend more time sitting in your car driving, than starring at it; unlike big upright objects standing around your livingroom, for hich you may for considerably longer than any car you own.



Okay, thanks for the clarification.



Can't someone have an interest in both ideals? Does having an interest in industrial design necessarily rule out the possibility of finding products that deliver serious performance as well? For me, the answers are quite obvious; but it does make the purchase process all the more challenging.



Hold up there John, I was only referring to the Controller and Power 5 products, when mentioning DIY projects. Ever look at the array of HTPC boxes for DIYers? I have seen several HTPC cases that look remarkably similar to those housing the new NHT products. I stand by my comment about the XdA looking like a game console.



In my view, the difference is more about perceived value. The Xd frankly looks a bit *toyish* for my tastes. However, that doesn't mean I am incapable of overlooking this one shortcoming, were I to find the performance sufficiently compelling. But for some, the design statement may prove to be something they just can't get past. On the other hand, the NAD Masters Series looks as good as the performance it is capable of delivering. It simply exudes quality, class and good taste. I may be speculating here, but I'll bet more wives are interested in having something that makes a classy design statement in their homes, than they are in having audio gear that produces superior sound.

So, by definition, the Xd stands and cabinets are made of, and painted with, plastic materials. Now granted, this is very nice plastic; and even notably acoustically inert plastic; but it is still, nevertheless, very much PLASTIC.

I'm not so sure I'm following that definition in a way that leads me to the same conclusion. Even if it is technically "plastic", it has little resemblance to what people typically think of as "plastic". From a sensory perspective, it has more in common with marble. There are few speakers I'd like to have fall on my head *less* than an XdS. A typical high-end bookshelf speaker weights 20-25lbs/cubic foot, maybe even 30lbs/cubic foot. The XdS weighs ~50lbs/cubic foot. The Classic bookshelf speakers average about 32lbs/cubic foot.

I'm not sure it's even technically a "plastic." If it's main composition is resin, fiberglass, and wood components, then calling it plastic at all is quite a stretch.

I'm not sure it's even technically a "plastic." If it's main composition is resin, fiberglass, and wood components, then calling it plastic at all is quite a stretch.

Wood is definitely not plastic.

Metal is definitely not plastic.

I wouldn't have considered fiberglass plastic, but isn't fiberglass just glass and resin?

So it comes down to the question of resin. I think it is technically an organic polymer, which takes it a long way towards being a plastic, but it's certainly not what people normally think of as plastic (as Alimentall said).

Fiberglass is a plastic.

We can split hairs about whether a material is strictly speaking plastic per se, but we can not argue that loosely speaking it very definitely is a plastic material. For those wanting to chase the answer (strictly speaking) take a glance at what wikipedia say here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic

When you look at the history of plastic, you can see there a some similarities to the material bakelite (phenolic). I found some parallels in this:

"Baekeland found that mixtures of phenol (C6H5OH) and formaldehyde (HCOH) formed a sticky mass when mixed together and heated, and the mass became extremely hard if allowed to cool and dry.

...He continued his investigations and found that the material could be mixed with wood flour, asbestos, or slate dust to create "composite" materials with different properties.

...Phenolic plastics have been largely replaced by cheaper and less brittle plastics, but they are still used in applications requiring its insulating and heat-resistant properties. For example, some electronic circuit boards are made of sheets of paper or cloth impregnated with phenolic resin."

Which leads us to fiberglass:

"In 1939, IG Farben filed a patent for "polyepoxide" or "epoxy". Epoxies are a class of thermoset plastic that form cross-links and "cure" when a catalyzing agent, or "hardener", is added. After the war they would come into wide use for coatings, "adhesives", and composite materials.

Composites using epoxy as a matrix include glass-reinforced plastic, where the structural element is glass fiber, and "carbon-epoxy composites", in which the structural element is carbon fiber. Fiberglass is now often used to build sport boats, and carbon-epoxy composites are an increasingly important structural element in aircraft, as they are lightweight, strong, and heat resistant."

While I certainly don't profess to having the science background to claim anything with absolute certainty here, I do feel safe in saying that most people that see the Xd and Classic series cabinets would agree that some sort of plastic material is being used in their construction. That is not to say plastic cabinets are bad thing, just that there need not be a correction interjected whenever the association is made between these cabinets and the (in my view) aptly applied plastic description.

Point taken.

Except that "plastic" has a highly negative connotation as far as looks and build quality and I don't think the description is warranted. Especially with the Special Dark finish which doesn't look plastic at all.

Well, I think most people can tell stone based, molded compounds and corian from plastic, but most people don't make much distinction between "differant" kinds of plastics.

Except that "plastic" has a highly negative connotation as far as looks and build quality and I don't think the description is warranted. Especially with the Special Dark finish which doesn't look plastic at all.

Why does plastic have to carry such a negative connotation with it? I mean really, is a new Corvette Z-06 something you are going to pass on, simply because it is made of plastic? You would be hard pressed to find many expensive luxury cars that aren't clad in plastic on both ends. A lot of ultra spendy boats are made of plastic; heck, even my overpriced Mont Blanc pen is made out of plastic. Look to the audio world and you will find more than a few outrageously priced plastic turntables. Plastic products can be found in so many pricey goods these days, that the negative connotations once associated with plastic products in years past, just doesn't hold sway the way it once did.

The point is: none of these items are lesser products, simply because some of their parts are made out of plastic. Because plastic is the most used material in the world, does not mean it always denotes a lesser quality product. Quality plastic is not an oxymoron; as it is the engineering and production methods that go in to making the final product, that in the end determines the merits of any companies use of plastic technologies. Much like the realization that people will never ignore the LS-7 under the hood of a Z-06, because GM chose to shroud it in a plastic body; it is likewise improbable that people will completely discount the sound quality of your speaker, solely because the cabinets are sculpted out of a hi-tech plastic compound.

Personally, I think you need to embrace the technological pluses of engineered plastics and stand tall about their many advantages, as there is just no getting past the fact that you are now selling plastic speakers! Mark my words; your credibility will be your undoing, if you don't call this spade a spade!

Say it with me John: I sell plastic speakers and I'm proud!! Say it again, and say it loud!! I sell plastic speakers and I'm proud!! :D

some of the nht experts here have probably already mention how these speakers sound, but this thread is 20 pages long now. i can not read the entire 20 pages. would someone please tell me where are the reviews for these speakers? like what page they are on. thanks for your help.

also are there any professional review for these speakers yet?

i'm looking into buying the the aboslute zero, the classic two, or the m5 for my apartment.

TIA

rlguy,
I happened to listen to the NHT Classic Two and The NHT M6 for my first time today.I can tell you this.The AZ is tiny.The two is rather small but has a very smooth sound,a little brighter to me than the SB-3 but a little nicer overall.Now the M^,that was nice a$$ non-fatigue speaker.I could listen to those all day loud and not get tired of them whereas I think the Twos would not be listened to quite as long.The L5 was used as surrounds in front and rear and I personally didnt like them.Maybe it was the fact that they were so close to the wall or that they were used for surround duties,but they didnt sound like the M6 at all to me.If I had the bucks I would probably purchase the M6 but I dont think the Classic Three is going to be nothing short of spectacular.Thwe Twos are sweet but the Three may be leaps and bounds better than the Two.I will let you know soon when my Threes get delivered.

i'm looking into buying the the aboslute zero, the classic two, or the m5 for my apartment.

TIA

Get the T5/M5/L5 combo! You will never look back! :eek:

Doesn't Special Dark color sound like something out of a Monty Python skit?

I'm sorry, but that has to be the most ridiculous color name marketing has ever come up with. I don't see how the NHT dealers say it with a straight face. :D

FWIW, I was told earlier today that 3Cs have arrived and are on the way. ETA Monday or so at dealers. Still waiting to hear the update on Threes, Fours, iW4s and the electronics.

thank you very much mark russ and NHT4LIFE for your guidance.

so i'm crossing out the new classic line and looking into the M5 and M6. most people would agree that the m5 and m6 has the same sound quality. the m6 just plays louder than the m5. while the m6 is not much bigger in size, but it weights almost twice as much, about 20lbs vs 40lbs. the m6 has a much better enclosure?

rlguy,
I will let you know soon when my Threes get delivered.

Or do you mean "IF" you ever hear them?

Another fleating deadline comes and goes...so the story goes.

I know what the problem is, those meanicing bugs in China are attacking the plastic trees that are being used to make the classic speakers...plasticize me - love it.

I know what the problem is, those meanicing bugs in China are attacking the plastic trees that are being used to make the classic speakers...plasticize me - love it.

I would take NHT's made out of confetti before I would buy Paradigm Monitors or B&W 60X series3 speakers all day long though.

Why does plastic have to carry such a negative connotation with it? I mean really, is a new Corvette Z-06 something you are going to pass on, simply because it is made of plastic? You would be hard pressed to find many expensive luxury cars that aren't clad in plastic on both ends. A lot of ultra spendy boats are made of plastic; heck, even my overpriced Mont Blanc pen is made out of plastic. Look to the audio world and you will find more than a few outrageously priced plastic turntables. Plastic products can be found in so many pricey goods these days, that the negative connotations once associated with plastic products in years past, just doesn't hold sway the way it once did.

The point is: none of these items are lesser products, simply because some of their parts are made out of plastic. Because plastic is the most used material in the world, does not mean it always denotes a lesser quality product. Quality plastic is not an oxymoron; as it is the engineering and production methods that go in to making the final product, that in the end determines the merits of any companies use of plastic technologies. Much like the realization that people will never ignore the LS-7 under the hood of a Z-06, because GM chose to shroud it in a plastic body; it is likewise improbable that people will completely discount the sound quality of your speaker, solely because the cabinets are sculpted out of a hi-tech plastic compound.

Personally, I think you need to embrace the technological pluses of engineered plastics and stand tall about their many advantages, as there is just no getting past the fact that you are now selling plastic speakers! Mark my words; your credibility will be your undoing, if you don't call this spade a spade!

I wouldn't automatically rule out buying a plastic product. I think that just the fact that we have to spend so much time defending it's use is an indication of what most people's perceptions are with regards to plastic. I would guess that if surveyed, most would strongly favor a real wood veneer over vinyl (plastic clad) veneer when both are on MDF, and either would still score higher than plastic in preferance. Not an insurmountable mountain, but climbing against perception and preferance none the less. Cabinets can make it difficult to achieve design goals, plastics make it easier, nothing wrong with finding a way that works for your price model.

rlguy,
if i were you I wouldnt rule out the Classic line just yet.Remember,I was comparing a $1200 pr pair of M6's vs $600 per pair Classic Twos.I preferred the sound of the Twos whereas my girlfriend liked the M6's.The only reason I might go M6 over the Three is because I think I could listen to the M6 for longer periods of time.The Three is supposed to be a different animal all together,so if it is better than the two,for the money Im going to be super satisfied with them.I definately ruled out T6's.They are just too strong on the bass for me.The Classic Ten was plenty for me paired with the Twos.

el stumbo,
the Threes WILL SHIP.Patience has its rewards and I dont think Ill be dissapointed with them after hearing the little Twos sound.

The only speakers I liked better than the NHT Twos and M6's so far are the Revel M22,but those are well out of my budget.The depth of those were phenomenal.But,considering I could have a 5.1 setup of Twos for the same price as a pair of those M22's,my money would go to the NHT 5.1 setup first.

Also,if anyone lives in Oklahoma that would like to come over to hear my Classic Threes once they come in is more than welcome to come over for the day to audition them.Hell,even if you live in canada your still welcome.The dealer in OKC will not be getting any Three's except for special order so noone will be able to hear them first.

I found themidrange to be recessed so they would not be a consideration for me.
I am interested in the Threes or Fours because I am hoping the midtweet will take care of the recessed midrange.

I'm sorry, but that has to be the most ridiculous color name marketing has ever come up with. I don't see how the NHT dealers say it with a straight face. :D

We don't. It's actually named after a candy bar with a sense of humor behind it. One thing about NHT is that they actually have a sense of humor, something sadly lacking in this industry.

I found themidrange to be recessed so they would not be a consideration for me.
I am interested in the Threes or Fours because I am hoping the midtweet will take care of the recessed midrange.

By recessed, do you mean "controlled"? Because most ported 6" 2-ways have what i would call an "uncontrolled" or "cluttered" sound with too much midrange or upper midrange emphasis (aka "forward") sound where the voice sounds "shouty" as though there are hands cupped around the mouth or its coming from a megaphone. Put a country sound on Twos vs a typical 2-way ported speaker and you'll get what I mean. The Threes will just take "control" to another level, so it won't exactly eliminate this issue.

Or do you mean the upper midrange presence? Recessed usually means like an old Klipsch speaker or Bose AM5 where the entire midrange is depressed. I would say that the Twos lack a bit of upper midrange presence, something most speakers have too much of these days and lacking in upper midrange dispersion, which is normal for a 6.5" midrange. The Threes have more upper midrange presence, lower midrange distortion (actual detail) and more upper midrange dispersion, so it will be a whole other animal.

I do think, from a sales perspective, it is good to have one warmer sounding speaker in the lineup because some people like a warmer sound.

I know what the problem is, those meanicing bugs in China are attacking the plastic trees that are being used to make the classic speakers...plasticize me - love it.

The Classics are made from MDF. I call the Xd material "poured composite" which is gives the proper impression that it is heavier and more rigid that what most people think of as "plastic". If the Xd is made from plastic, then so is the $135K Wilson X2.

also are there any professional review for these speakers yet?


There aren't, and won't be for another several months on the AZ/Twos. The AZs are a bit brighter than the Twos and very well balanced, just about spot on as far as tonal balanced. I thought they were a bit bright until I heard them side by side with a few other speakers which made them sound positively lush by comparison. The Twos are a bit warmer and fuller with a bit more effortless sound. The M5s and Threes are more like AZs in tonal balance, but have more detail and the upper midrange is cleaner and the low midrange is more focused and extended. In the end, you just have to listen, but if you have an apartment, the AZ/Ten combo would be just about the ideal apartment system, IMO and they image remarkably. If you really play loud, then the bigger ones, of course.

Listened to Keb' Mo' "The Door" SACD and felt like his voice was a little back in the mix.

The speaker was polite and easy to listen to.

Tried Von Swchweikert ($400 more) and like the vocals better, but there was probably a bump in the midrange.

So i was going from a speaker that had a dip in the vocals, to one that had a bump, which would obviously present a glaring difference.

My salesman felt like the AZ had a better balance than the Two.
I guess because the woofer is smaller and can go higher more easily.

That was just my opinion after listening for less than 30 minutes.
Others may feel different.

The 3C now appears on Audio Advisor as shipping in one business day. Hopefully the Three will soon follow.

b4z, I agree with your guy, I think if you can have only 1 midrange, a 5.25" is the right compromise. Overall, the balance of the SB1 and AZ have been just about spot on. But they sound a bit more strained compared to the Twos. But if I have a customer with a bright room, I can use the Twos. I think your opinions are pretty valid. I wouldn't call male vocals "recessed", but I would say the upper mids have less presence than some which makes them less exciting sounding, but some will appreciate the plusher sound. For all their refinement and smoothness, they *are* more detailed and have more upper midrange presence than last year's SB3s.

The SB3 was and still is a great speaker IMO. Far and away the best bass I've ever heard in a bookshelf. It would embarass many towers.

I can't wait to hear the 3.

Isn't it about time to hear about a new ship date for the Threes and more disappointment / regret / hatred of NHT...waiting to hear the story told one more time, for the umptenth time...as our world turns and as there is no three...

If they went by boat it had better be a speed boat at this point cuz Im giving it another 10 days.If I see no speakers by then I will go with Revels Concertas. :eek:



REVEL4LIFE or NHT4BEFORE :D ,

Isn't it about ten days from when you posted this? So, please let me know hoe your new revels are...I'm thinking along your lines...would like to hear how these babies sound.

Thanks :) .

For what it's worth, I spoke with Andy at NHT and he says the 3C will arrive at NHT on Monday and the Threes would arrive on Thursday. Hopefully everyone can take a nice, deep breath and hang in for a bit

This was posted on April 1st.
I am trying to remain positive but I thinking maybe this was an April Fools Joke. What the heck is going on. The end of my wait is getting very close. My blind loyalty to NHT for what is essentially a blind purchase is about to end. I am probably going to need some kind of professional therapy after all of this.

Where is John?

Are you checking at the port of no return/ entry?

This was posted on April 1st.
I am trying to remain positive but I thinking maybe this was an April Fools Joke. What the heck is going on. The end of my wait is getting very close. My blind loyalty to NHT for what is essentially a blind purchase is about to end. I am probably going to need some kind of professional therapy after all of this.

Maybe we can get a buy1 get1 free coupon for the shrink :D

Ive been trying to be patient(ya right),but I too am readt to either see them go another route,the NHT M5.

John,
what do you have as far an the NHT M5.At this point Im ready for either of these options.

I was hiding, where do you think? I was hoping to report good news, but, while they still say that 3Cs are in California, they won't show up until Friday at NHT. I'm a bit annoyed that my sales guy said (after me pissing him off) "they're here, you'll get all you need on Monday" (two days ago) and so I just e-mailed him to ask "which Monday?" I'm trying to get more info on the Three, but the level of difficulty is like trying to completely understand a woman on PMS.

I was hiding, where do you think? I was hoping to report good news, but, while they still say that 3Cs are in California, they won't show up until Friday at NHT. I'm a bit annoyed that my sales guy said (after me pissing him off) "they're here, you'll get all you need on Monday" (two days ago) and so I just e-mailed him to ask "which Monday?" I'm trying to get more info on the Three, but the level of difficulty is like trying to completely understand a woman on PMS.


Just like most of life you really can't count on it until the money is in hand. I use the Disneyland stratagy... tell them its a 45 minute wait in line and when they get through in 20 they will be extra happy with their experience. If it takes the full 45 they still have a good time. It's like getting on a freeway in LA and expecting to sit there for an hour to go 5 miles.... you know what you're in for.

ATTENTION EVERYONE; I talked to NHT and the 3's will arrive by the end of August! Move on with your lives, check this board from time to time and someday you'll get your speakers. Who knows maybe in 2 weeks if you're feeling lucky.

if thats the truth there isnt a chance in hell im hangin around.I swore April 10 was my deadline but I decided to wait this week.If by the end of next week they arent in Johns shop Im either getting M5's or going to pull the plug and ask to get a refund.

if thats true i'll be going with a DIY center :cool:

NHT Press Release:


NHT proudly announces the Nuevo Classic line which replace the
wildly successful and critically accclaimed Classic line.

The Nuevo Classic takes NHT's entry level line to new heights with
improved clarity for the upcoming High Resolution DVDs.

The speakers are made entirely of plastic and offer lightning response
in a lightweight package. Along with same high gloss finish that you have come to expect from NHT.

The Nuevo Classic One and Two will be at your local NHT retailer by August.

The Nuevo Classic Three and Four will be available for purchase for the Rosh Hashanah Holiday.

How does it compare to the current NHT Phantom and Vapor series? ;)

How does it compare to the current NHT Phantom and Vapor series? ;)

Nobody will ever know, but let the speculation begin! Extrapolate, don't interpolate!

I don't know, but the folks at NHT
must be pretty embarrased by the Classic's performance
right about now.

Insider's report that the Nuevo Classics will beat the Classics
in every major category, including availability.

Insider's report that the Nuevo Classics will beat the Classics
in every major category, including availability.

Bah! Availability doesn't matter, only reputed performance! :)

Bah! Availability doesn't matter, only reputed performance! :)

Laughing keeps us from crying... :(

I plan on calling them(NHT) again today just to tell them how piss poor there credibility is at this point.They can kiss my ass,the lying a-holes.

Has NHT ever offered a reason for the delay? Did the manufacturing plant blow up or something?

I'd heard at one point that it was the dome array manufacturer, which has long been an issue. It makes sense since all of the non-array speakers have been available and relatively on schedule too. But the 2C has been shipping, the 3C is in California somewhere overdue for arrival (predicted tomorrow now), the Three is supposedly out of production and is either on the way or is being prepared to be air freighted. The Four is supposed to be in production now, the iW4 which is last on the list is supposed to go into production next week. However, I'll see if I can get ahold of someone a few levels up today or tomorrow so I can get a logistical map of this. This is based on stuff I got out of them a few days ago.

I plan on calling them(NHT) again today just to tell them how piss poor there credibility is at this point.They can kiss my ass,the lying a-holes.

Couldn't it be something other than LYING?

Charlie is just discovering that wonderful love/hate relationship we dealers have with NHT :) Well, my sales guy *did* lie to me, probably to get me off his ass, but that's not typical. I have to get him pretty pissed off before he said that, but I think he was just trying to get rid of me. The bad thing is that NHT personnel don't react well under stress, must be a "left coast" thing. However, they constantly put themselves (and all of us) in situations where there will be high amounts of stress. I'm trying to get them to stop that habit, but it's like trying to convince a smoker to quit. In any case, I think he's referring to the small of amount of Threes that *did* show up and *did* get delivered, but it wasn't even enough to cover demos for 20% of the dealer base. They did happen, it's just that it wasn't terribly useful. They probably wanted to get a pilot run done before going into mass production. Or, just as likely, they only had a very small amount of dome arrays available from the vendor with which to build them. Apparently that is no longer an issue, but shipping, receiving, customs, etc is, as always.

Continuing to watch this thread, I'm really glad I've placed my order for the Viejo Classic series speakers (Evolution M6/L5/U2) for my HT. At least I know what they sound like, and not just from John's perspective. :)

Glad you've found something you have heard and like.

This whole thing is making me feel viejisimo. But, crossing fingers, I've been told as of yesterday by as high up as it gets that my 3Cs were shipping by today and my Threes by Monday.

Promises, Promises, Promises, Lies, Lies, Lies. What more would you want to hear coming from a company with the letters NHT and what it stands for, HOW HEAR THIS” You’re hearing it alright, NHT is nothing more than a worthless company placing you the buyer at the end of their butt’s and you are allowing them to sh-t all over you…

Pull out while you can…

John you should be ashamed of yourself, continuing to make these promises of their arrival...

Wake up. It's all just a dream.

Promises, Promises, Promises, Lies, Lies, Lies. What more would you want to hear coming from a company with the letters NHT and what it stands for, HOW HEAR THIS” You’re hearing it alright, NHT is nothing more than a worthless company placing you, the buyer at the end of their butt’s and you are allowing them to sh-t all over you…

Pull out while you can…

John you should be ashamed of yourself, continuing to make these promises of their arrival...

Wow......From the tone of your post, I think you need to find yourself a new hobby. :eek: :p

coues,
damn man lay off a bit,its not his fault,blame NHT(Never Hear Truth).He is just a messenger.He says what hes told.Sure,I wish we could believe it but,based on past performance from NHT Im not holding my breath.Thats why Ive asked for M5's as a backup plan in case it turns out to be more BS from NHT.John,some of us appreciate you and understand who is rightfully to blame.I just hope the Threes are what you've said they are from your brief sessions with them.

Thats what happens when you have products made in China. If everyone wasn't such a bunch of cheap asses, the speakers could be made here and cost 3X as much. But then you guys wouldn't buy them.

I don't see NHT running around in public making release dates. Only one dealer. Maybe John can get upset but then maybe he shouldn't have been pushing products that aren't available. Get a grip peeps. My local NHT dealer has never given my availability dates and I'm a good customer.

I don't see NHT running around in public making release dates. Only one dealer. Maybe John can get upset but then maybe he shouldn't have been pushing products that aren't available .

Well FYI they damn sure told me @ NHT that the Threes were shipping in late Feb.Then they told me early March,then they said late March,then I gave up asking them anything cuz it was all bullshit.So,while it wAsnt "publicly",they still gave falso information on availability.NHT is to blame,not John.Get your facts straight before you start accusing people.

MC, all I have ever done is answer questions to the best of my knowledge. Yes, I was repeating bad information, but that's all I had. If they say "three weeks", I said "three weeks". If someone asks and I *think* I know the answer, why wouldn't I tell what I know?

coues,
damn man lay off a bit,its not his fault,blame NHT(Never Hear Truth).He is just a messenger.He says what hes told.Sure,I wish we could believe it but,based on past performance from NHT Im not holding my breath.Thats why Ive asked for M5's as a backup plan in case it turns out to be more BS from NHT.John,some of us appreciate you and understand who is rightfully to blame.I just hope the Threes are what you've said they are from your brief sessions with them.


NHT4LIFE,

You have been the BUTT of this joke nearly 6 months. Maybe John and his company are not as tite with NHT as he claims. I know it's nearly been 2 months when you made this promise that they (SPEAKERS) would be in your hands within days.

I m sorry that you have been tortured and made a fool of in an open forum by someone that continues to make claims that he will have the speakers next Monday. Hell if I had a dollar for every time John has made this statement I would have enough to purchase a set of NHT, but I would not own the damn speakers after this mess...

It's amazing that ONE person has made this mess in these forums. His crediability to deliver is playing out in these forums by his continued support for a speaker that nobody has heard or seen. I doubt that John has ever heard or seen these speakers in person.

I dont consider myself a "foul"???errr u meant "fool" i suppose.A fool would be someone who chooses to purchase B&W's instead of NHT's.I still have my NHT SB-3's,so Im not speakerless.John already has discussed the option of going with NHT M5's if next week the Classics are still "Phantoms".Hell I wouldnt expect him to be "tite"errrr I think you meant "tight" with those dickwads(NHT) after they pulled him along like the rest of us only 10X worse.For someone being so mad you sure seem to keep up with this thread.May I ask why?

MC, all I have ever done is answer questions to the best of my knowledge. Yes, I was repeating bad information, but that's all I had. If they say "three weeks", I said "three weeks". If someone asks and I *think* I know the answer, why wouldn't I tell what I know?

John, it wasn't my intent to throw blame your way.

Only one dealer. Maybe John can get upset but then maybe he shouldn't have been pushing products that aren't available

Doesnt look that way to me.

STFU Your the one throwing blame everywhere. Your acting like a 12 year old who can't have his candy. Get a life. Its a speaker. L.

NHT4LIFE,

You have been the BUTT of this joke nearly 6 months.

Perhaps, but he knows something that you don't. If you call him an idiot, add "savant" at the end. You'll figure it out later.

Hell if I had a dollar for every time John has made this statement I would have enough to purchase a set of NHT, but I would not own the damn speakers after this mess...

Uhhh, yeah, I think you *might* have enough to buy a 6-pack of cheap American beer.

It's amazing that ONE person has made this mess in these forums. His creditability to deliver is playing out in these forums by his continued support for a speaker that nobody has heard or seen. I doubt that John has ever heard or seen these speakers in person.

The word is "credibility". In any case, I have heard and seen them and it appears that the sooner these come, the more threatened you feel. I support them because they are technically excellent at a stupidly low price, for no other reason. In any case, you'll find out the hard and expensive way, I guess. And I shall be one of those laughing at this point, especially when you see the trade ins for these.

The word is "credibility". In any case, I have heard and seen them and it appears that the sooner these come, the more threatened you feel. I support them because they are technically excellent at a stupidly low price, for no other reason. In any case, you'll find out the hard and expensive way, I guess. And I shall be one of those laughing at this point, especially when you see the trade ins for these.

My faults for relying on spell check, kinda like your fault for believing in NHT and the BULL SH-T. Seems to me you should have learned something in all these post that you have made, and that is stop playing head games with those that are putting trust in you. You’re like the kid that cries wolf, at some point no one is going to believe you and trust you.

For someone being so mad you sure seem to keep up with this thread. May I ask why?

I am not mad at all, I guess the the reason I continue to drop by is to see when the bleeding is going to stop for those that remain and want to purchase from John. Sorry for calling you a fool... Personally I hope your saga comes to an end soon. You have been patiently waiting for months and I hope the speaker lives up to legendary remarks John has placed on the speakers.

I can't wait to read the reviews that await the 3C's and get another take on the entire line of Classic's. It's been so one sided for so long that the speakers have became famous in one mans eyes.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but does anyone doubt that the reviews of those people that have continued to wait will be stellar?

The "It was SO worth the wait" kind of reviews.
Not directing this at NHT, but it is this way for all of these situations, Blind devotion.
Even if it isn't the "second coming" we're dressed for it so let's convince ourselves that it IS the second coming.
Again, this has played out before with other brands, nothing against this product.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but does anyone doubt that the reviews of those people that have continued to wait will be stellar?

The "It was SO worth the wait" kind of reviews.
Not directing this at NHT, but it is this way for all of these situations, Blind devotion.
Even if it isn't the "second coming" we're dressed for it so let's convince ourselves that it IS the second coming.
Again, this has played out before with other brands, nothing against this product.


This is why I welcome a non-bias review where the reviewer has nothing to gain from the review outside of giving straight to the point tested review. Nobody wants to eat crow after such remarks that have been given on the 3C’s, but I bet were all about to find out sometime in the future just where these overseas (Chinese) speakers stack up… My bet is they will be the $400.00 speaker they are intended to be, “middle of the road” John has already stated that the NHT line is all he pushes and has tried them all, so how can he not promote them… Maybe he can not entertain any other brands in his shop, so to turn a buck he has to live and breathe NHT. The sad part is so many others are taking his word, when in fact they should be testing these speakers using their AMP's in their environment to music of their interest...

How many of you would go buy a NEW or USED car without taking a test drive first and looking under the hood? I know I would not. Your looking at dropping over $3000.00 for 4 – 3C’s, Center, and SUB…

Take a test drive guys and gals, its your ears that need to be pleased not someones bank account...

Man, the jealousy factor is going through the roof :)

I don't see Charlie is as blindly devoted as his excitement might seem. He already has SB3s and likes them a lot. The Threes simply take that and add more resolution and a bigger soundstage/sweetspot, which is exactly what they need to be truly amazing speakers. The SB3s has been one of Stereophile's reference speakers for about 2 years now.

The magic of the Three is exactly that it is *not* yet another 2-way 6.5" bookshelf speaker. It has more in common with the B&W Nautilus speaker or the Vivid Audio line than a conventional 2-way. The design is well-grounded in acoustic engineering with design features that you'd normally only find in very expensive, exotic speakers. I guess the only people who wouldn't be excited would be people who don't want them to be better than their favorite speakers. Still, even with extreme technical excellence, you still have to like them. I checked out a Triumph today that's probably better than just about any Ducati, but it just doesn't feel right to me whereas the Ducati does (and I suspect old Ducati owners would feel right at home). Subjectivity still rules. But it's not a big stretch to assume that existing NHT owners will love the Three. As for everyone else, who knows?

coues,
thanks you for apologizing,apology accepted.

tweeterex,
trust me when I say I will be NON BIASED.I have waited for 3 months for the speakers with alot of high hopes and after all the false promises by NHT my "personal" review will be very judgemental of them.I would have been easier on the Threes if they would have shown up when they(NHT) said they would.Now,Im a little hot over this and if they dont blow me away Im gonna feel like a chump and will be honest about it here.I have absolutely nothing to gain by giving them a dishonest review.

Mad Chemist,
How about you STFU. So....Are you saying that my posts put blame "everywhere" ??? Bullshit....Just @ NHT Marketing Geniuses.Your the one throwing blame everywhere.
Your acting like a 12 year old who can't have his candy.....Seems like the only true statement in your last couple of posts.But when I finally get my candy Ill hopefully be smiling from ear to ear.

Think we can have a truce for a week til they actually get here? All this is pretty theoretical anyway. My listening, with no ability to compare and in foreign acoustics, left me thinking that these are somewhere between "just another good value, recommended for audition" and "giant killer, must audition", but my opinion doesn't count anyway, so hopefully in a few weeks people will have had a chance to listen, compare, judge. I mean, really, all I noticed from listening was that I didn't notice any notable coloration or harshness, which was my main concern. So, hopefully we can all just take a deep breath, relax, and then start fighting again next week. How about that? :)

Think we can have a truce for a week til they actually get here? So, hopefully we can all just take a deep breath, relax, and then start fighting again next week. How about that? :)

Whats the fun in that ? LOL Thats a pretty darn good idea.

....Your acting like a 12 year old who can't have his candy.....Seems like the only true statement in your last couple of posts.But when I finally get my candy Ill hopefully be smiling from ear to ear.

LOL :D :D

Hope your 3's are everything you wanted them to be, and more! I dont know how you waited so long...Im actually going through a similar situation with my replacement Rythmik Audio driver...At least i'll be getting something by next week for sure after waiting a month for a replacement.

Keep your ears open for a big splash boys. If there is no promising news on the horizon by Tuesday, I'm jumping ship. I ordered my Classic Threes & 3C in early October. I've waited more than 6 months. Probably five months too long. I see the bitterness toward NHT growing each day with the new posts. I am now questioning why would I want to support a company like this. The fact that NHT as made no attempt to inform their most devoted customers, leaves me scratching my head. What's even more astonishing to me is that we accept this. I have owned a small business for many years and if there is one thing I have learned...It is much easier to keep a good customer than to find a new one. I am ready to move on and not look back.
I have no bitterness toward NHT. They have taught me a valuable lesson on how NOT to treat my customers.
I thank you all for the posts. It's the only thing that kept me hanging on this long.
Good luck to all those who hang in there, and hats off to all who decide enough is enough.

It has definitely been quite a ride.

Keep your ears open for a big splash boys. If there is no promising news on the horizon by Tuesday, I'm jumping ship. I ordered my Classic Threes & 3C in early October. I've waited more than 6 months. Probably five months too long. I see the bitterness toward NHT growing each day with the new posts. I am now questioning why would I want to support a company like this. The fact that NHT as made no attempt to inform their most devoted customers, leaves me scratching my head. What's even more astonishing to me is that we accept this. I have owned a small business for many years and if there is one thing I have learned...It is much easier to keep a good customer than to find a new one. I am ready to move on and not look back.
I have no bitterness toward NHT. They have taught me a valuable lesson on how NOT to treat my customers.
I thank you all for the posts. It's the only thing that kept me hanging on this long.
Good luck to all those who hang in there, and hats off to all who decide enough is enough.

It has definitely been quite a ride.

Like you I have bailed. Our local NHT dealer has never made ANY promises of their delivery other than to say they are still in the development stages. He has not seen or heard any of the classic 3’s. I was set to make a big purchase of the NHT speakers but I saw the writing on the wall months ago.

In this forum you have Alimentall making these outrages claims of their arrival and I am hearing a completely different story from our local NHT dealer. The bottom line is the smoke is going to continue to billow from Alimentall smoke stack while keeping everyone on the ropes with hope. I sure hope Alimentall has learned a valuable lesson in working with NHT as he has turned many people against NHT. I can’t even imagine his local cliental in New Mexico having to deal with the heartache of all the promises.

In this forum you have Alimentall making these outrages claims of their arrival and I am hearing a completely different story from our local NHT dealer.

Hey, I'm just telling people what I hear, it's not like I'm making stuff up *nor* am I "promising" anything. It sounds to me like *your* dealer was lying to you because, while it may have shown more discretion, he clearly wasn't telling you all he knew, probably to have you buy something in stock. Obviously, if I knew in advance that NHT was going to blow their target date so badly, I'd have said "here's what they say, but it's likely more like mid spring.

I sure hope Alimentall has learned a valuable lesson in working with NHT as he has turned many people against NHT.

Actually, I'm trying to make sure that it is *NHT* that learns the valuable lesson and doesn't announce a delivery date until product is in production.

I can’t even imagine his local cliental in New Mexico having to deal with the heartache of all the promises.

The only other real option is to buy B&Ws, so they hang in there :D Besides, very few of my customers are "suffering" with their existing system and if they are, it's not because of me.

Alimentall hasnt lost me nor will he in the future.My "local(100 miles away) dealer" said when I went to audition the Twos and M6's that he has "in stock" a 3C but wasnt willing to open it and let me hear it.And to top it off,I never told him I preordered my Threes,so he said he cant wait to hook up my Threes in his demo room "after" I purchase them.Gee...Thanks But No Thanks.What nerve to not hook up a 3c but wanting to hook my speakers up for his own enjoyment.John had been very willing to work out other options with me and thats what counts the most.In the end making sure A.The customer gets what they want and B.If for some reason that falls through the customer has another avenue to still be happy if they happen to like another product.He has been very honest and has helped me with many questions so Ill stick by him,and not my "local dealer".

Hey, I'm just telling people what I hear, it's not like I'm making stuff up *nor* am I "promising" anything. It sounds to me like *your* dealer was lying to you because, while it may have shown more discretion, he clearly wasn't telling you all he knew, probably to have you buy something in stock. Obviously, if I knew in advance that NHT was going to blow their target date so badly, I'd have said "here's what they say, but it's likely more like mid spring.

But after so many disappointments didn't you think for a moment you would have been better of to say, "Ok NHT is telling me the speakers will arrive Monday, but I am going to sit on this information". Seem to me that not saying a damn thing you would be better off. Then comes Tuesday afternoon and no UPS truck and your the only one disappoint not those that are counting on you. This play by play has no doubt run off buyers.

At no time has the local dealer of NHT's have ever tried to sell me anything else, in fact its me that has to asked to listen this particular speaker with this particular amp. No high pressure sales tactics going on here.

Personally I think your wrong in your approach method. You would have been better off to say, "I am expecting a shipment of 3's but until they arrive at my doorstep I can not comment on them nor will I take any deposits… But the continued stringing along potential buyers with mis due date after due date after due date has hurt your credibility to make good on this product. Maybe you should have taken the approach of NHT and not say a damn thing.

I don't disagree with that. I'm just walking a fine line now between drying to dampen the vitriol and giving any more false hope. I wouldn't divulge anything at this point except with the usual warnings that it may not be correct and with the hopefully more useful news that I got it from a source that, so far, hasn't made me look bad.

I sure hope Alimentall has learned a valuable lesson in working with NHT as he has turned many people against NHT. I can’t even imagine his local cliental in New Mexico having to deal with the heartache of all the promises.

This is a perfect example of just how myopic one can get from reading this Forum. The fact is, most of the rest of the outside world is blissfully ignorant of the goings on with NHT's Classic line rollout, as has been reported here. The average person will likely continue being unaware of the many delays. For them, the product will be on time, when they walk in to an A/V retailer and audition the new speakers, or when they read about them in one of the A/V rags. With the production delays reported by other speaker manufacturers (Swan and AV123 come to mind) and all the various trials and tribulations (read about in online forums) that are attributed solely to the challanges of getting new products to market from Chinese factories, I can't say I'm all that surpised to see NHT experiencing similar production delays.

While the Classics are important to NHT as replacement for the Super Audio line, they do not represent the entirety of NHT's offerings. They are not even the 'flagship' products for the company. They are simply NHT's newest 'value priced' entry-level speaker offering. Meanwhile, NHT has its cutting edge digital Xd amp/processor/speaker system product in stores now, and production continues for the still popular, and currently Stereophile Class A rated Evolution T6/M6 analogue speakers. And while John may have let his own excitement about the new Classic speakers put him in the awkward position of creating interest in a product that can not yet be had, it remains that NHT has several other very compelling speaker offerings that you can take home today.

zaracsan....Well said my friend.

Hey, I'm just telling people what I hear, it's not like I'm making stuff up *nor* am I "promising" anything. It sounds to me like *your* dealer was lying to you because, while it may have shown more discretion, he clearly wasn't telling you all he knew, probably to have you buy something in stock. Obviously, if I knew in advance that NHT was going to blow their target date so badly, I'd have said "here's what they say, but it's likely more like mid spring.

No good deed goes unpunished.

zaracsan....Well said my friend.

I couldn't agree more.

I tire of this persistent trashing of John. He made the cardinal sin of being enthusiastic in print about a speaker line that potentially could represent great performance and value. Who has he hurt by this? Whose money does he refuse to refund due to the numerous delays? NO ONE! If you want to buy something else, there are no shortages of options. As Zaracsan said, this thread is a tempest in a teapot since the vast majority of potential Classic buyers will find out about the line when they see it at their local dealers, where the real reckoning will occur.

HAPPY EASTER NHT,Alimentall,zaracsan,coues,Mad Chemist,Shadow 8,wratman,Exocer,tweeterex and all others on this post !!! Unfortunately, I shot the Easter Bunny since he didnt bring me Classic Threes.I only used rocksalt so that he could still hobble to all your houses and make your childrens day a happy one.May all of you find peace in your hearts and minds and enjoy the ones you love the most.I hope we can all have nice things to say even if its just for today.Have a wonderful day everyone !!!

Charlie Beller

He made the cardinal sin of being enthusiastic in print about a speaker line that potentially could represent great performance and value. Who has he hurt by this? Whose money does he refuse to refund due to the numerous delays? NO ONE! If you want to buy something else, there are no shortages of options

There are no shortage of dealers and manufacturers that attempt to create enthusiasm and delay certain customers from pursueing other options as they promise the coming of a "catagory buster", it happens here all the time with electronics. Many times it happens because people have just gotten wind of a "project" and get themselves all excited about the "new feature" it has, many times the manufacturer tries NOT to share info or talk about the project. However, when the company and it's dealers play to this in forums like this one, it is a bit difficult to see it as "harmless". I am not saying that this is the case in this situation, there are many egregious examples of this from other companies. True the average customer will never know of the situation, it seems that it is the hobbyists here that have been treated differantly. If this is your target marketing demographic, you would be well advised to treat them better.

HAPPY EASTER...
Charlie Beller

Thanks Charlie for your thoughtful message, and may I extend my wishes to you and the family for a wonderful Easter. Don't eat too much Easter candy!
Lee Wratten

Don't eat too much Easter candy!
Lee Wratten

Haaa NEVER !!!

I have too many kids to eat it up,they take care of that for me !!!

There are no shortage of dealers and manufacturers that attempt to create enthusiasm and delay certain customers from pursueing other options as they promise the coming of a "catagory buster", it happens here all the time with electronics.

Yes but I assure you it isn't the case (Happy Easter). NHT didn't intend to be late or announce way ahead of availability. Note that the four models not containing the dome array pretty much arrived on time.

Many times it happens because people have just gotten wind of a "project" and get themselves all excited about the "new feature" it has, many times the manufacturer tries NOT to share info or talk about the project.

No one was more annoyed by the whole Acurus Act3 announcement than I was. It did nothing but cost me B&K sales for about 6-9 months before people gave up on the promise of a $1500 DTS-equipped processor.

However, when the company and it's dealers play to this in forums like this one, it is a bit difficult to see it as "harmless".

Any "harm" was unintentional. However, bear in mind that this stuff *is* luxury gear, not air or water. Besides, it wasn't my thread, I just answered questions that no one else was answering.

I am not saying that this is the case in this situation, there are many egregious examples of this from other companies. True the average customer will never know of the situation, it seems that it is the hobbyists here that have been treated differantly. If this is your target marketing demographic, you would be well advised to treat them better.

Let's not forget that hobbyists are very pro-active in finding out information and can be very demanding about "what, when, how" from the moment any new product has been uncovered, so if you don't answer questions and ignore them, then that isn't considered to be good form either.

However, as I've mentioned, I'm pushing very hard for NHT to not formally announce *any* new products until it's actually in production. It's one thing to have general conversations with dealers about what a company *should* build, but once it's in development and essentially finalized, it makes sense to say nothing until it's out.

Don't forget, it's hard for me to sell more expensive product as well right now. And the predecessors to the Three, Four, 3C, iW4, as well as Evolution T5 and T6 towers, have all been discontinued, so not only do I have a product vacuum, I actually have difficulty selling other current product because everyone wants to hear Threes and/or Fours before making any decisions. I don't make money talking about product, but right now, Classic is all I about which I can talk :eek: My sales went way down because of the lack of product and is only up over the last few months because of other factors such as custom install, commercial sales, projection sales, etc. So, I'm not exactly on the winning end of all of this. I'm into "harm reduction" at this point.

Well chastised, well explained, time to stop the wailing and end this thread. I'd suggest beginning a new one once the product arrives. Til then, chill.

I've lurked along in this thread (I think I posted early on somewhere) and have read the "John bashing" that's been going on...and figured I needed to say something. Just wanted to let you know that I was part of John's Classic Two tour and I subsequently purchased that pair from John. I also later purchased another single Two for use as a cc. John has been GREAT to deal with! He responded to all my emails and calls in a prompt, courteous, and friendly manner. I had absolutely no problems dealing with him, and he always did what he said he'd do. As we all know, he's NHT's greatest cheerleader...and perhaps he's too overzealous for some. But I just wanted to add my .02 that John is a straight shooter as far as I'm concerned.

Good explaination John. I didn't mean to be contrary, but I always try to refer to unreleased product as VAPORWARE until it's in my warehouse. A few of my customers get pushy wanting answers to questions brought about by info gleened here or elsewhere but I tell them that I don't deal in dreams, false hope , and promises I can't keep. The 1080p Pioneer Elite plasmas are already creating a buzz and we keep hearing "JULY" ...do you think I believe we'll see them by July? I know people want to hype their product so consumers will wait and not buy something else, to that I say "can you wait a longer than you think it's going to take? Because it almost assuredly WILL take longer." Look at BD and the PS3, I'm guessing Christmas, but that's not what they're saying now.

No biggie. One of the things I keep stressing to NHT is that any advantage gained by announcing a product before it is ready is offset 10 times by the frustrations felt by dealers and prospective customers. Much as I'm not a big B&W fan, they announced Diamond in mid November, said it would be at dealers by mid January and they did it, all, what, 15 models right on time and in nearly unlimited quantity. That is how it should be done. When you do stuff like that over and over, people buy products as much or more for the company than the quality. And you can even charge more and get it. You can't do a better job than that.

John,

Am I reading your prior post to mean that the Evolution series has been discontinued? I guessed this would happen, but wasn't aware if this is already the case.

No, just the B5/B6 "tower subs" to make the T5/T6. They still make the M5, M6, L5 and U1/U2 subs.

Hi,

I am on the verge of giving up as well. I saw one post that recommended the Revel Performa F32/M22. Can anyone recommend a dealer that will ship these to me?

Thanks,

winovin

Well, now would be a bad time to give up since they were shipping mine today or tomorrow. While I certainly have none to spare any time soon, I'm sure there are dealers who ordered plenty in advance of demand.

The wait will finally be over soon! According to NHT when I called today, the 3's had finally been received and were shceduled to start being shipped to dealers today late this afternoon. With as good as they sounded at CES in a not so great environment, I can't wait to hear how good they will sound in my theater room!

Well I noticed on my new sheet that the T6s were not there. Infact the M6 was not there either.

Well I have a T6 system... 2 T6s, 3 M6s, 1X1 and 2 amps. Guess I will need to move them off.

Anyone got a pair of 3.3s and 2.9s they want to trade? Well I would need an AC-2 as well.. anyone?

I hope this in not more overkill...This time will it really be true?

So, if the threes are what we hope and expect, would there be any difference in the various recievers to pair it with? Does NHT speakers normally pair better with one brand over another: Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, NAD....?

No, just the B5/B6 "tower subs" to make the T5/T6. They still make the M5, M6, L5 and U1/U2 subs.

John do you think the M5 & M6 will get the new drivers in the classic line.
Allen

So, if the threes are what we hope and expect, would there be any difference in the various recievers to pair it with? Does NHT speakers normally pair better with one brand over another: Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, NAD....?

Well, the Japanese receivers struggle a lot more with NHT than stuff like NAD, Rotel, Arcam. Most of them are so woefully inadequate with current that any kind of really difficult scene in at high volumes can shut them down or make them sound strained and anemic. At lower volumes in smaller rooms though, most can get by.

John do you think the M5 & M6 will get the new drivers in the classic line.
Allen

I think so, but that's pure speculation. I also suspect that the M5/M6 replacement (I think there will be just one) will be "digital ready" so that it can be used with DEQX. I think the Classic is just about the last of the speakers NHT will make that aren't geared towards digital reproduction. In fact, I'd *love* to hear a pair of Threes run by DEQX. It would be tremendous. The fact that the drivers are all rigid metals make the new drivers perfect for digital crossovers. This doesn't mean they'll do that, but this is both my guess and it was my recommendation to them.

Was contacted by my NHT dealer today. Indicated they plan to ship my Three's this week and I should have next week. Keeping my fingers crossed.

I think so, but that's pure speculation. I also suspect that the M5/M6 replacement (I think there will be just one) will be "digital ready" so that it can be used with DEQX. I think the Classic is just about the last of the speakers NHT will make that aren't geared towards digital reproduction. In fact, I'd *love* to hear a pair of Threes run by DEQX. It would be tremendous. The fact that the drivers are all rigid metals make the new drivers perfect for digital crossovers. This doesn't mean they'll do that, but this is both my guess and it was my recommendation to them.

What would be worth making the M series into a digital speaker. I mean if you already have one king why would you need another. Where as upgrading the M5/m6 into just a m6 with the upgraded drives would be good, I am thinking bigger rooms that the classics could not handle as well so maybe stronger or better dynamics. It would help bridge the gap from the classics to the already digital speakers NHT has.
Allen

Allen,
Here's the cool thing about a 3-way bookshelf with metal drivers. Done properly, it can work in the analog domain, but with digital, it could work even better. NHT has been working on a 4-way digital crossover with DEQX for their M80Xd uber digital system. So, it follows that a big version of the Three with dual mids could fit the bill as an upgrade from the Three in the analog domain, but could function even better with digital EQ as an upgrade from the current Xd, at least as far as big, high output home theater systems. So, there could be a "M7a" and an "M7Xd". Two products for the design of one. And a person could upgrade the analog one to the digital one when he has more money. Hey, like I said, just speculation, but that's what I'd do.

Allen,
Here's the cool thing about a 3-way bookshelf with metal drivers. Done properly, it can work in the analog domain, but with digital, it could work even better. NHT has been working on a 4-way digital crossover with DEQX for their M80Xd uber digital system. So, it follows that a big version of the Three with dual mids could fit the bill as an upgrade from the Three in the analog domain, but could function even better with digital EQ as an upgrade from the current Xd, at least as far as big, high output home theater systems. So, there could be a "M7a" and an "M7Xd". Two products for the design of one. And a person could upgrade the analog one to the digital one when he has more money. Hey, like I said, just speculation, but that's what I'd do.

John, like that it would work. In fact with their new parent company I guess it could be combine into their controlers with no problem. I guess the thing I was thinking about was price. Doesn't the M80 xd cost like $8000.00. What makes the current M series so good is its low cost for the perfomance. I mean I replaced a pair of 2.9 which retailed for 2500 to 3000 dollars.(can't remeber for sure) but the m5 was an upgrade for me.
Allen

John, like that it would work. In fact with their new parent company I guess it could be combine into their controlers with no problem. I guess the thing I was thinking about was price. Doesn't the M80 xd cost like $8000.00. What makes the current M series so good is its low cost for the perfomance. I mean I replaced a pair of 2.9 which retailed for 2500 to 3000 dollars.(can't remeber for sure) but the m5 was an upgrade for me.
Allen

Really? I have always regreted selling my 2.9s to get the T6s. The T6s could be driven with less power like a receiver but it really screwed things up needing to get line in outs. I have been running seperates for years now. My fav amp on my 2.9s would be a toss up between the EAD PowerMAster 2000 20 amp or my Cinepro 3k6se Gold. The PM had this incredible sound to them that made you want to listen all sorts of stuff to just go wow. But the Cinepro can not be touched when it came to the ability to pull out every last sound. Don't even get me started on the bass these things had together.

Anyways the powered drivers in the T6 have not done it for me the way that the passive 2.9 did.

I got the dual amps for the T6... but err...

That Fosgate Preamp remains my biggest mistake.

What sort of receiver??? Marantz and Harman have had solid results with all the NHTs I have used provided they are run as small. The NHTs Eff ratings often taxed receivers. But when you use bookshelfs... have had great results with different receivers.

Seperates with real power amps are just... worth it!

John, like that it would work. In fact with their new parent company I guess it could be combine into their controlers with no problem. I guess the thing I was thinking about was price. Doesn't the M80 xd cost like $8000.00.

Well, if they do a 3-way replacement for the M5/M6, it would probably run $1200/pr-$1500/pr. Right now the XdA costs $3300 but it will come down in price over time (or get even cooler). But you could have both on the same "platform". Just use an interchangeable back panel. The speaker part of the M80Xd is about $4000/pr, but it also has dual dome mids and dual magnesium woofers. But it could also be made for less money at some point as a smaller speaker. I'm just thinking that, since Evolution is going "custom" as far as its marketing, DSP has a lot of usefulness for a custom installation.

Really? I have always regreted selling my 2.9s to get the T6s. The T6s could be driven with less power like a receiver but it really screwed things up needing to get line in outs. I have been running seperates for years now. My fav amp on my 2.9s would be a toss up between the EAD PowerMAster 2000 20 amp or my Cinepro 3k6se Gold. The PM had this incredible sound to them that made you want to listen all sorts of stuff to just go wow. But the Cinepro can not be touched when it came to the ability to pull out every last sound. Don't even get me started on the bass these things had together.

Anyways the powered drivers in the T6 have not done it for me the way that the passive 2.9 did.

I got the dual amps for the T6... but err...

That Fosgate Preamp remains my biggest mistake.

Listening side by side to my 2.9's and M5's my son and his girl friend my wife and myself we all thought the M5 was smoother on the top end. Of course I had both sets of speakers crossed at 80 hz. For music my wife lean towards the 2.9 it was a toss up for me but I was the only one who knew which ones where playing. My son and his girlfreind picked the M5's. I was using an Aragon 2002 amp not a lot of spec power but it had more than the specs said it had(125 per channel). In fact it was a lot smoother than the parasound 2200MKII I had on them. I still have my 2.9's they are in my sons room.

Hey Darian or you from the old Digital forum that we use to go to about 6 or 7 years ago. I was NHT over their. I still talk to Rick from their from time to time.
Allen

DekPM19,

Been around for about 10 years online... which forum specifically.

EAD TheaterMaster in and out of the X1 to the T6s didn't even compare to the 2.9s running full range. Then again the Cinepro is 450 watts a channel. The A1 is like 250... so I am sending 450 watts to the monitors and 250 to the subs. Doesn't seem right... doesn't sound as right either.

i bought the t5 and have been using it for over a week now. i'm quite dissappointed at the SQ. the lower midrange seems very thin on the m5. the only way to improve the lower midrange was to raise the sub crossover point to the high end. i'm also surprise to hear some enclosure ringing from the m5.

i opened up the m5 and find no internal bracing. on nht website, they claim that the m5 is braced in two different places.

as you can see below, there is no brace anywhere.

http://www.yourbigfun.net/pic/m5.jpg

i can add some braces to the enclosure and add some damping material to help dampen the enclosure ringing, but the thin midrange will be harder to fix. i know that the 2 midbass drivers was damp down to match the sensitivity of the midrange, so i'm pretty sure there is away to improve 2-3 db in the 2 5.25" midbass driver.

ps. the midbass driver is the peerless 5.25" csx woofer. the midrage is the 3 inch by vifa. no sure what the tweeter is because i didnt remove it. finally sorry to make this into two post because avs wont let me post the image until after my 5th post.

I agree about the mid range being a little weak. I have been thinking about trying so M6 to compare. I have also been looking at the ascends 340se. I think the m5 is a little weak in the mids because of the way they where suppose to be use. M5 for smaller rooms and M6 for bigger room. I think the what got me was the highs are a little smoother in the m5 compared to the 2.9. But when I had my AC2 that may have not mattered. I had already sold my AC 2 before I got my m5. so I didn't compare between them.
Allen

i opened up the m5 and find no internal bracing. on nht website, they claim that the m5 is braced in two different places.

It could be a typo on the site.

Schadenfreude

That is a great handel!

It could be a typo on the site.

Yup, NHT probably meant to type "the M5 is NOT braced in two different places" :rolleyes:

Maybe he was trying to be gracious and kind.

Here's a very, very, did I say very, detailed piece on getting the most out of M6's that might work with thw M5's. I played around with their suggestions and they pretty much worked for me with the 5 M6's I've been playing with. I also found the M6's, as John Atkinson in Stereophile recommended, opened up to another level when ran Large in the pre-pro settings. When toggling between large and small [crossed over at 50 or 60] the difference was suprisingly obvious.

Oh yeah, I'm addicted to the Quad ESL 63's [one on it's side for center channel] I've been using in my HT for several years and therefore will probably not keep the M6's. If I wasn't addicted to the Quads I'd run 7 M6's for my HT and run them all large.

If you take the time to play with the M5's as mentioned in this ever so detailed article, you may find something you really like. I did with the M6's. It's just that when I hooked the Quads back up for one more listen before I put them up for sale....well...I just can't help myself...Oh yeah, the midrange on the M6's can be very good.

http://www.iar-80.com/page103.html

Well, to keep you from having to read the whole article....the basic suggestions for the M6's are.

1. Set them up the opposite of NHT's suggestion and have the midrange on the inside and the tweeter on the outside. Play with speaker angle [can't remember what vwas exactly recommended].
2. Reverse the input wiring. + from amp to - on speaker and - from amp to + on speaker. If you do this and have a sub...reverse the polarity on the sub.
3. keep boundary switch at position 1
4.[not from this article] Run speakers large feeding full signal. This made a lot of difference in my system

Oh yeah, I forgot. they also recommended placing the speakers where either the top or lower bass driver isa at ear level.

i bought the t5 and have been using it for over a week now. i'm quite dissappointed at the SQ. the lower midrange seems very thin on the m5.

I am guessing that you mean mid/upper bass. Yes, you want to run the subs up a bit higher and as Hess said, running the M5s full range can also help a bit if you get the phase right. However, I've not ever had any real complaints about this. I've had a few people choose the M6s because it does this area better. Do you have the back panel setting to "0"?

as you can see below, there is no brace anywhere.

That is very strange. There *used* to be braces! One of several possibilities:

1. This is a fluke, a production run error, something like that.
2. The people building the cabinets decided to save some money, hoping not to get caught.
3. NHT decided to save money, also, ummmm, hoping not to get caught.

Knowing NHT as I do, #3 seems so unlikely, or, at least, unlike *them*. They're pretty anal and I don't ever remember them dumbing a product down. I've seen them upgrade them inline without telling anyone. The SuperAudio speakers got upgraded (and somewhat more expensive) tweeters about 1 year into production without even an announcement of any kind.

i can add some braces to the enclosure and add some damping material to help dampen the enclosure ringing, but the thin midrange will be harder to fix.

You could uses some 4" or so ceramic tiles smeared with liquid nails if you like. It shouldn't change the box size much except back to where it should be with braces. Still, the M5 suffers from lack of extension, but I wouldn't say that it is "thin". In fact, I think they sound quite good on their own.

1. This is a fluke, a production run error, something like that.

This should've been caught before anyone bought them...can you say QC?

2. The people building the cabinets decided to save some money, hoping not to get caught.

This should've been caught before anyone bought them...can you say Monitor your OM partners?

Knowing NHT as I do, #3 seems so unlikely, or, at least, unlike *them*.

You mean with the great customer service they provide and integrity they have?

I've seen them upgrade them inline without telling anyone. The SuperAudio speakers got upgraded (and somewhat more expensive) tweeters about 1 year into production without even an announcement of any kind.

Any running change in your speaker should get a new version number as a way of letting your customers know that something has changed , and that this may change the SOUND.
Most companies do this.

thank you all for your help and guidance. i have taken on all aforemention recommendation, but my problem is the lack of "rich warmth" in the lower midrange compare to my my previous experience with a good set of speaker, the JBL HLS 602.

this measurement graph by sound&vision (http://www.nhthifi.com/press/reviews/pdf/evolution_sound.pdf) pretty much confirm what i'm hearing. there is a large dip in the 200mhz - 500mhz region.

http://www.yourbigfun.net/pic/m5.gif



That is very strange. There *used* to be braces! One of several possibilities:

1. This is a fluke, a production run error, something like that.
2. The people building the cabinets decided to save some money, hoping not to get caught.
3. NHT decided to save money, also, ummmm, hoping not to get caught.

Knowing NHT as I do, #3 seems so unlikely, or, at least, unlike *them*. They're pretty anal and I don't ever remember them dumbing a product down. I've seen them upgrade them inline without telling anyone. The SuperAudio speakers got upgraded (and somewhat more expensive) tweeters about 1 year into production without even an announcement of any kind.

You could uses some 4" or so ceramic tiles smeared with liquid nails if you like. It shouldn't change the box size much except back to where it should be with braces. Still, the M5 suffers from lack of extension, but I wouldn't say that it is "thin". In fact, I think they sound quite good on their own.

i opened up the m5 and find no internal bracing. on nht website, they claim that the m5 is braced in two different places.

as you can see below, there is no brace anywhere.


i can add some braces to the enclosure and add some damping material to help dampen the enclosure ringing, but the thin midrange will be harder to fix. i know that the 2 midbass drivers was damp down to match the sensitivity of the midrange, so i'm pretty sure there is away to improve 2-3 db in the 2 5.25" midbass driver.

ps. the midbass driver is the peerless 5.25" csx woofer. the midrage is the 3 inch by vifa. no sure what the tweeter is because i didnt remove it. finally sorry to make this into two post because avs wont let me post the image until after my 5th post.

Braces don't necessarily mean front to back. They can also mean panels attached to the sides.

Where is the fiber fill? Was that missing too? My M6s and M5s both had a white polyester material inside.

Were these purchased new or used?

Not sure how you measure cabinet "ringing" but my M5s and M6s are/were like a solid block of wood. If these came from the factory this way, I am sure NHT will replace them with an embarrassed smile.

i bought these new from an online store. i took the polyester out to take the picture. as far as i can tell, there isnt any other panel or laminate to the mdf. the interior of the enclosure was spray painted black. there are only a few triangle shape pieces that is attach to the corner, which you can see in the photo i posted ealier.

by "ringing" i mean, there is sound coming from the cabinet. i can hear it when playing vocal music, especially celine dion "my heart will go on." there is quite ringing to her voice. when i press my ear to the side of the cabinet, the ringing is more appearant.

thank you all for your help and guidance. i have taken on all aforemention recommendation, but my problem is the lack of "rich warmth" in the lower midrange compare to my my previous experience with a good set of speaker, the JBL HLS 602.

this measurement graph by sound&vision (http://www.nhthifi.com/press/reviews/pdf/evolution_sound.pdf) pretty much confirm what i'm hearing. there is a large dip in the 200mhz - 500mhz region.

http://www.yourbigfun.net/pic/m5.gif

The notch is a room interaction caused by the difference in the distance of each woofer to the floor. Note there is no gap when the M5 is oriented horizontally when used as a center. However, the overall response does have a broad rising response from 1K and up.

i bought these new from an online store. i took the polyester out to take the picture. as far as i can tell, there isnt any other panel or laminate to the mdf. the interior of the enclosure was spray painted black. there are only a few triangle shape pieces that is attach to the corner, which you can see in the photo i posted ealier.

Can you tell us which online store you purchased these speakers from? Do you know if they are an NHT authorized dealer (you can find the info on NHT's web site)? The reason I ask, is that there has been some talk of NHT knock-offs being sold online. Some of these unauthorized dealers are selling speakers that have no serial numbers. If your speakers have no serial numbers, they you may be SOL here; but if they do have serial numbers and were bought from an authorized NHT dealer; then I would be on the phone tomorrow, getting the speakers replaced with the correctly braced cabinets. Please let us know what you find out.

Sound & Vision are utterly clueless when it comes to measuring! Check out the Home Theater Mag measurements of the M5/B5. It remains, as far as I can tell, the most accurate speaker they've ever measured.

Sound & Vision are utterly clueless when it comes to measuring! Check out the Home Theater Mag measurements of the M5/B5. It remains, as far as I can tell, the most accurate speaker they've ever measured.

can you explain why they're clueless when it comes to measuring?

Yes, they don't do quasi-anechoic, they measure the speaker/room interface, which gives you essentially no useful information on what the speaker is doing. I addressed this in the Xd thread. They measured a speaker that is essentially perfectly flat and got almost identical response to the T5.

BTW, the new NHT Classic speakers are very much double braced with 1.5x thick front baffles.

Yes, they don't do quasi-anechoic, they measure the speaker/room interface, which gives you essentially no useful information on what the speaker is doing. I addressed this in the Xd thread. They measured a speaker that is essentially perfectly flat and got almost identical response to the T5.

Measurements from S&V and HT Mag of the M5 are quasi-anechoic.

Heres the latest measurements on NHT the Corporation:

Scale is +10 to -10

Marketing -9
Availability -10
Customer Service -10

I wish NHT bigwigs read these forums to realize just how unhappy they have made their dealers and customers become.I had a heart to heart the gf last night and she thinks I should hold out a little longer since the Threes are what I have been wanting since I first heard about them.Guess WAF is going to win....At least for now.

My wait has already ended. Has anyone received their 3's?

nope...DodgeViper did you receive your Threes or go with something else.Where did you get them also? Online or what?

I'm also still waiting. Was told they would be in this week.

I wish NHT bigwigs read these forums to realize just how unhappy they have made their dealers and customers become.I had a heart to heart the gf last night and she thinks I should hold out a little longer since the Threes are what I have been wanting since I first heard about them.Guess WAF is going to win....At least for now.


Yet still you wait. And keep the monicer.

Yet still you wait. And keep the monicer.

At this point Im not waiting because of me,Im waiting because the gf.And if I can reason with her Im going to try for M5's or possibly used M6's.But,shes been pretty adiment about waiting,even after she heard and preferred the M6 over the Revel M22,and Classic Twos.

Anyone listened to both the M5 and M6 that can tell me the sonic differences other than the fact that the M6 plays louder?

BTW, OneCall now shows the Three as in stock, finally.

BTW, OneCall now shows the Three as in stock, finally.

Who's going to be the first?

At this point Im not waiting because of me,Im waiting because the gf.And if I can reason with her Im going to try for M5's or possibly used M6's.But,shes been pretty adiment about waiting,even after she heard and preferred the M6 over the Revel M22,and Classic Twos.

Anyone listened to both the M5 and M6 that can tell me the sonic differences other than the fact that the M6 plays louder?


I have the M5. I feel their is some mid missing with them. From what I hear the M6 will give you a sronger mid bass because of the 6 1/2 woofer. Tony here on the forum had the 5 and went with the 6 because of this. I would like to try some m6 myself to see if this was true. I will say this when I stop trying to find fault with the M5 and just watch the movie it is very enjoyable.
Allen

No I have not purchased the speakers and do not plan on buying them, but I have listened to them while out in San Diego last Wednesday.

Was out in CA. with family and decided to drive around while the family was visiting family. I happen onto an audio store where a group of people were auditioning the 3’s. It was my feeling that the 3’s were on loan or someone within the group own the speakers.

My first impression was the speakers sounded somewhat bright and the sound stage seem small. Being an outsider and not knowing anyone I decided to just listen. I do know that the speakers were mixed with a number of SUB’s and no SUB’s, through a number of higher end amp and receivers. The speakers I would guess to be about 8 feet apart or slightly more.

Although I mentioned I would not buy them I would like to audition them once again. The group of people (11) including myself appeared to be somewhat split with a few wanting to purchase them while others were looking elsewhere.

They are beautiful to look at, but…

At this point Im not waiting because of me,Im waiting because the gf.And if I can reason with her Im going to try for M5's or possibly used M6's.But,shes been pretty adiment about waiting,even after she heard and preferred the M6 over the Revel M22,and Classic Twos.

Anyone listened to both the M5 and M6 that can tell me the sonic differences other than the fact that the M6 plays louder?
Buy my M6's!
I just got 2.9's last week to relace the M6/P6's used as rears in my 5.1 system with 3.3's in the front.

you were the one who beat me on EBAY. You got the 2.9s and the 3.3s!

at least a couple of m5 owners agree with me on the m5 lower midrange. i think the m6 is just much better built than the m5. the m5 weights in at 21 lbs. the m6 is not much bigger, but weights in at 36 lbs. the m6 is much better built.


I have the M5. I feel their is some mid missing with them. From what I hear the M6 will give you a sronger mid bass because of the 6 1/2 woofer. Tony here on the forum had the 5 and went with the 6 because of this. I would like to try some m6 myself to see if this was true. I will say this when I stop trying to find fault with the M5 and just watch the movie it is very enjoyable.
Allen

you were the one who beat me on EBAY. You got the 2.9s and the 3.3s!
Actually I just got mine from a local seller in Phoenix from an ad on audiogon.com... my M6's are listed there now with the matching P6 pedestal/stands. Can't believe you didn't go higher than $800.00 for the 2.9's... that was a steal.

Yeah... my system now is 3.3 fronts, AudioCener 2, 2.9 rears and a U1 subwoofer... absolutely DEVASTATING! I also have the SW3 subwoofer and amp which used to be in the system, but I think the U1 edges it out for movies.
I tried the T6 system in front as well, but prefer the 3.3's... so does the wife!

Buy my M6's!
I just got 2.9's last week to relace the M6/P6's used as rears in my 5.1 system with 3.3's in the front.

Looked at your A_gon but cant use the Pedestals :( .Well I could...I just cant afford them and the M6's.Didnt figure you wanted to break up the set.

To anyone who may know: I have a 42" Enhanced definition plasma which can accept HD signals, but when I use the HDMI input, and set the resolution to 720p or 1080i, there is some severe overscan cutting off a good part of the right and bottom of the picture. There is also a VGA input which can accpet HD signals, and when I use this input there is almost no overscan, however, when there is a bright flash on the screen such as a movie I may be watching that has a lot of shots in it with rain and lightning, the picture goes out completely for a few seconds. How can I fix this problem? Are there any products that can help me with this problem?

SEDmang:

Welcome to the AVS forums!

You have posted in the wrong forum. This is the "Speakers" forum, you need the "Plasma and LCD Flat Panel Display" (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=40) forum . Try asking over there, though you might try doing a search (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/search.php?forumid=40) first.
Also, you should volunteer as many specifics to your problem (plasma model, source components, etc.) as possible.

My first impression was the speakers sounded somewhat bright and the sound stage seem small.
They are beautiful to look at, but…

:eek: Those first thoughts are scaring the crap out of me !!! :eek:

Looked at your A_gon but cant use the Pedestals :( .Well I could...I just cant afford them and the M6's.Didnt figure you wanted to break up the set.
The pedestals are the perfect support for the M6's and they are simply stunning if you have never seen them in person. You can't even tough a really good pair of stands for under $200.00...
The pedestals have the support plate that bolts to the back of the M6 and the wire channel down the backside... it was a very well thought out setup.

But when you have a strict budget of $650.00 to spend that all I can do is mount them on my old stands.. : (

I did not bid on the 2.9s. When the 3.3s slip I decided not to bid on the 2.9s

Those first thoughts are scaring the crap out of me !!!

Not scared enough to tell your gf that you are going to get something else ;)

she can be pretty mean :P

Im thinking seriously hard on whether to wait or get used M6's or going with the Revel M12's.You guys could help me decide.By the way,my gf reads these too from her computer so you could help me persuade her as well !

You've waited this long. It sounds like people are starting to get the Threes. You might as well hear everything and make an informed decision.

or going with the Revel M12's.

She won't let you get the M12's.

she will let me get whatever I want(within reason and budget of course).She just knows my love for my SB-3's and how excited I got when I heard about the Threes and getting them preordered.I am going to wait for the Threes and let my own ears be the judge,noone elses opinion should matter anyway.If I dont like them I will sell them and get either M6's or the Revel M12's.

She doesnt think the Revels are very pretty to say the least.I think sound should be the determining factor when purchasing speakers but she seeks to think that looks should play a part as well...Guess she cant bitch about the Threes cuz they sure are pretty : )

But when you have a strict budget of $650.00 to spend that all I can do is mount them on my old stands.. : (

You could always build your own stands as I did. First it will be rewarding to have something you built in your audio/video room, secondly the stands just look damn beautiful once finished… As you can see the speaker cable is completely hidden through a channel that I placed in the middle. The base of each stands has 25 pounds of lead shot which makes the stands DOG proof. The speakers are secured to each stand using industrial Velcro. The Velcro also used to dampen any vibrations between the stand and speaker. Stands are made of Oak...

http://pvreunion.com/1979_Photos/Untitled/Speaker_Stand1.png

Since my M6s/U2/L5s arrived on Friday, I did some quick listening in my living room this weekend as framing of the HT is already half done and I wanted to be sure that everything functioned on delivery (at least that's what I told my wife). Listened to a pair of M6s with the U2, and also listened to the L5s (which will function as side and rear surrounds) with the U2. Listened to lossless digital files through a Sony 777ES receiver (don't smirk--actually a decent piece of equipment, though it will be replaced by a Denon 4306 in the HT).

My impressions:

1. The M6s blew my previous setup (PSB Image 6Ts and sub) away. I never liked the midrange on the PSBs, even though they were adequate for movies (with an Image 9C center and 3LR rears). I heard plenty of details that I've never heard before in my living room. I would have been disappointed if I had gone for the L5s in the front. They were adequate and matched reasonably, but not in the same class as the M6s that will serve as front and center channels. Though it's highly subjective and based on recollection, I don't remember being as impressed by the T5 (M5/B5 combination) I heard previously, despite the fact that the room where I heard the T5 was acoustically treated.

2. I'm very happy I didn't wait for the Classics. First, I think the lack of high gloss with the classics is better for a dedicated HT. I'm blown away by how good the U2/M6 combination sounded (even with the subs poorly placed and the M6s sitting way too high on top of my PSB towers). I'm also not sure what I would have done for side and rear surrounds if I had gone the classic route--the aesthetics of the L5s in the matching anthracite is great, and I didn't like the idea of mounting bookshelf speakers in a nice room. We actually mounted PSB bookshelf speakers in several rooms when we built our house, and I still think they look awkward. I'd hate to compromise sound greatly by going with in-wall speakers, so the on-wall L5s were a reasonable compromise. I also love the flexibility of the dual U2 cabinets and the A1/X1--this should facilitate proper tweaking once the room is done.

3. I was sure that it was a right decision to go back to NHT when I opened the owner's kit. Don't want to ruin any surprises, but inside the small "open me first" box was:

--the Evolution manual
--a pair of white cloth gloves
--two high quality screwdrivers (#1 and #2) each etched with the NHT logo
--best of all, an NHT logo nut tightening tool with a bottle opener at the other end!

Most fun opening something since I got the first gen iPod, and worked my way through the little treasure boxes inside the outside packaging.

I'll look forward to hearing about the Classic Series, but would also suggest that anyone looking to upgrade an older setup might want to seriously reconsider going with the Evolution speakers (while they're still around) if they're less than blown away with the Classics.

KKTX,

I want you to write the classified add for my T6/M6 System I am selling!

KKTX,

I want you to write the classified add for my T6/M6 System I am selling!

If only I would have known before purchasing--they might have been in my living room! Note that there are deals to be had on the M6/U2, so consider that accordingly when setting pricing. That said--why would you give them up?!? I don't like the look of the pedestals, but can only imagine what they sound like if they're even marginally better than my setup, as I would expect.

-KK

well boys and girls....I went back to Oklahoma City today and checked out the Revel M22's again only this time I brought my own cd's with me and I can tell you...That deep soundstage that I heard with their cd was gone with my own burned(320kbps)media.I did however get to audition the new D-BOX theater seating and that is AWESOME.It really makes you feel like your actually IN the movie,not just watching it.So all in all,my favorite has now changed to the NHT M6.I will demo my Threes upon arrival and if they dont suit me I will go with the M6's used.Tonygeno or BachtoRock be ready just in case.

Last thing a nice sound system needs is someone complaining in the background! ;) I give her dirty looks when she runs the sink while I'm trying to listen to stuff~~~

Last thing a nice sound system needs is someone complaining in the background! ;) I give her dirty looks when she runs the sink while I'm trying to listen to stuff~~~

Actually....she isnt complaining about me getting NHT's.She is complaining about me not wanting to wait on the Threes and just get a used pair of M6's.She preferred the NHT M6's to every other speaker we auditioned.I was tired of waiting(on Threes)and she told me that if I didnt at least wait and listen to the Threes then I may regret it,which is true.If I wouldnt have had her around I may have settled on the Revel M12's which may have been a bad decision considering the Revel M22's at 2200 per pair didnt sound as good as the NHT M6's to either of us.Anyone that has a serious budget should look into D-BOX.That was the funnest way I have ever seen a movie at home by far !!!! :D

So I guess john hasn't got his 3's in yet.
Allen

They're in QC now, supposedly leaving tomorrow. I just haven't been in the mood to talk about it, nor do I like getting my hopes or anyone else's up. But they say they got in the second shipment, so I'm on tap for a bunch this week, and a bunch is about what it will take to make a decent dent in my backlog.

Measurements from S&V and HT Mag of the M5 are quasi-anechoic.

The HT Mag is quasi, the S&V most certainly isn't. When they measured the Xd system, certifiably accurate by design, they measured almost identical to the T5 setup, because, in fact, they measured the room, not the speaker. If they were both quasi-anechoic, they would have measured similarly and the results couldn't have been more different. But the guy from S&V is really a dumbass who thinks he knows way more about audio than he does. I thought he was a dumbass 10 years ago and, well, he hasn't done anything to fix that. It's why he works for S&V and not a real magazine. If you read how he measured it, it's like he wanted to measure the room, but we don't hear the way a microphone does. We hear the anechoic sound first, *then* we hear the reverb (if you set them up properly). NHT apparently sent a letter of complaint to S&V about the Xd measurements, asking for new measurements or a retraction or something like that but I haven't heard what happened with that.

BTW, you can say something is quasi-anechoic, but if you didn't gate it properly, as happened in the S&V measurements, it comes out measuring the room anyway.

What's a "quasi-anechoic" chamber? Is that like being a little bit pregnant? I do know what a real anechoic chamber is--I spent some time in the anechoic chamber in the building where sonar was developed at MIT, but I'm not sure how you're defining this. I'll also say here that until you've been in an anechoic chamber, you have no idea what silence really is. I can only compare the experience to seeing the Milky Way for the first time in the mountains (in the absence of light pollution) after leaving a city.

It's not a chamber, it's a gating method that cuts off the signal after a certain time so that the reflections are cut out of the measurement since they would be delayed by 5ms or so. It is easier that moving the speakers to a real anechoic chamber. Whatshisname from S&V doesn't know how to set the gating properly, which makes his measurements entirely useless. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

well....a fellow poster on this thread has contacted me via pm to tell me that his Threes sound very,very nice.He said the soundstage is huge with great imaging and detail,and that they were well worth the wait.He also stated that he didnt hear them as being "bright" like another fellow forum member had posted.He also said that they are well worth the wait and that I wont be dissapointed.Thanks go out to him for sending me the pm,you know who you are ;- )

well....a fellow poster on this thread has contacted me via pm to tell me that his Threes sound very,very nice.He said the soundstage is huge with great imaging and detail,and that they were well worth the wait.He also stated that he didnt hear them as being "bright" like another fellow forum member had posted.He also said that they are well worth the wait and that I wont be dissapointed.Thanks go out to him for sending me the pm,you know who you are ;- )

Could you post his comments, with his permission? Or maybe this mystery person would be willing to post them himself? Or maybe there's nothing that you didn't already paraphrase.

I dont think he'll mind.Ill post them then if he wants I'll remove them.

A few initial impressions.

Bass goes lower than both the M5 and SB-1. In fact if you're in a smallish room you could get by fine w/o a sub. I have a NHT U2 subwoofer system that is awesome, hence, I crossover at 80 and rely more on the U2 for my Bass.

The Tweeter is superb, extremely accurate and true to the recording.

Soundstage is huge, perhaps the biggest improvement from the M5. Moving around my room I receive a much fuller sound than before.

Imaging is excellent, again better than both the SB-1 and M5.

One other thing I noticed is that these speakers can rock. I had them cranked pretty good and didn't hear the slightest hint of distortion.

Be interested in hearing your impressions when you get yours.

If the member that sent me this pm would like it to be removed please pm me and I will remove immediately.Thanks,
Charlie Beller

A few initial impressions.

Thanks! One more week (I hope).

The Classic speaker logjam must be cleared somewhat, as we now have a Forum sponsor running this banner ad:

http://216.66.12.250/serve-it/listenup/AVS-Forum-NHT-final-.jpg

The changes in the NHT dealer agreement that was discussed earlier in this thread are now reflected in the recently updated authorized Internet dealer listing shown on NHT's web site. What was somewhere around eight or nine "authorized e-tailer" listings, is now just three: Audio Advisor, Listen Up and OneCall. It will be interesting to see if the street prices will be affected by the new marketing agreement put in place by NHT.

My order for 3's shipped today. I got a UPS tracking email from NHT this morning. They are all sold so I will not get to listen to them but I know if I am getting them, most dealers will have them too. I was late getting on the list.

I've been lurking here and just decided to join up and describe my new Classic Three's that arrived yesterday. Some background:

I had three NHT Super Ones as left, center right and some Boston Dipoles in the surround position and an NHT SA-2 Sub Amp driving 2 SW2Si passive subs. It's been my baby for 8 years or so. Well, the center woofer blew out and I was looking to replace with a 2C or 3C. While I was waiting for that I got the idea of replacing the main Super Ones with the new Classic Three's and moving one Super One to center. Eventually I will get the 3C center and move the SuperOnes to rear in 7.1 config.

The first thing is the bolt distance on the C3's is wider than the S1's so I had to buy a new bracket - I have them mounted to the front wall. No problem with the OmniMount 20.

I haven;t yet tweaked with the Sub crossover or run the auto setup on the Yamaha Amp which balances/eq the channels so this was done with just analog and PCM stereo. My first impression was that the C3's have a similar character as the S1's in that they are accurate and intense. I definately notice the lower cutoff and need to look at what the sub crossover is at as there is a liitle coupling there now. The C3's sound more complex (best word I can come up with) and I guess I can believe that the little foam thingy that seperates the tweeter and midrange does some useful function (some assembly required :)

The C3's are definately an upgrade to my system and I'm sure over time with more music-hours I'll discover even more I like about them.

One thing though. It also made me remember and realize again just how damn good those Super Ones were (are) for the money. I will miss telling friends who are amazed by them that they only cost 300/pr. I have in another room a pair of B&W 705 which are also a great speaker and I'll look forward to comparing these C3's against them.

wattsiskey

Congrats on the arrival!

Tell us more, they are "complex" - a good and yet possibly bad feature.

Waiting, but not in vain I hope to witness this complexity.

Enjoy!

Welcome to the forum wattsiskey !!! We cant wait for other comments about the Threes.Isnt the B&W 705 about $1500 per pair?If so,that wont be a really fair comparison to the NHT 3's but I have a feeling they will hold their own against them once you have the 3's set up properly and you put both pairs of speakers on stands instead of the OM-20's.I also have OM-20's and I moved my NHT SB-3's to the rear awaiting my new Threes and I feel they lost some of their imaging, and soundstage as a result of taking them off the 24" stands.Are the B&W's also on OM's?Just curious.Thanks againg for your first impressions and we look forward to a more detailed review in the future.

C Beller

but I have a feeling

self fullfilling prophecy?

self fullfilling prophecy?

Wait Tweeter, it should get better; don't jump the gun.

Rock on.

self fullfilling prophecy?

If you call it that then so be it.I have yet to hear a B&W that I liked better than an NHT.I preferred the NHT M6 much much more than the B&W 705.In fact,I couldnt believe the price when he said they retail for $1500 per pair.If he was joking thats fine,but if he was serious I think B&W is putting the high hard one in alot of customers.By the way tweeterex,what brands do you carry?If its B&W then I can see why you take what I say and bend it to distort the truth.And the truth is is that B&W (to me) isnt near as "smart" of a buying decision as NHT is.Dont know many that will disagree on this thread either.When my Threes get here Ill take them to the B&W dealer and do a double blind in store cuz the dealer already said hed like to hear them.So well see who the winner is then.

When my Threes get here Ill take them to the B&W dealer and do a double blind in store cuz the dealer already said hed like to hear them.So well see who the winner is then.

Does it really count as much of a double blind if you're already familiar with one speaker and can pick it out? Sort of like doing a double blind on Coke/Pepsi. I know what Coke tastes like and in asking me which of two options I prefer, you're not testing what I like, you're testing whether I can perceive a consistent difference between the two.

Does it really count as much of a double blind if you're already familiar with one speaker and can pick it out? Sort of like doing a double blind on Coke/Pepsi. I know what Coke tastes like and in asking me which of two options I prefer, you're not testing what I like, you're testing whether I can perceive a consistent difference between the two.

I would agree with this thinking Matt [Nothing tastes like a real Coke; especially not a Pepsi!], but if Charlie does this test before he has had a chance to get any seat time with the Threes, then it would be far more telling. The dealer would have heard the B&W enough to pick them out, but perhaps disinterested third parties could cast their votes as well? Definitely would be an interesting test to conduct. Would be fun to add a pair of M6es in to the mix as well. :cool:

If you have only heard the Threes on Omnimounts, you haven't heard the Threes!

Exactly,I listened to the B&W 705's last weekend for about 20-30 minutes and havent received the Threes yet.So if I take them in when I get them then it should be fair with my ears.The B&W dealer should already know the sound of the 705's so his judging may be biased.

Welcome to the forum wattsiskey !!! We cant wait for other comments about the Threes.Isnt the B&W 705 about $1500 per pair?If so,that wont be a really fair comparison to the NHT 3's but I have a feeling they will hold their own against them once you have the 3's set up properly and you put both pairs of speakers on stands instead of the OM-20's.I also have OM-20's and I moved my NHT SB-3's to the rear awaiting my new Threes and I feel they lost some of their imaging, and soundstage as a result of taking them off the 24" stands.Are the B&W's also on OM's?Just curious.Thanks againg for your first impressions and we look forward to a more detailed review in the future.

C Beller

Yes, the B&W are $1500/pr and I have it paired with a B&W sub. It is beautiful cherry wood and sounds imaculate, particularly with my jazz collection. The thing is that I think I like different systems for different types of music. A comparrison for me would occur over a long period of time as I see which music I enjoy listening to on each system. I suspect that the new Classic 3's will get more music played on it than the S1's, but also I am influenced by the room situation and the fact that the NHT's are part of a whole 5.1 system so live concert videos recorded that way I listen to them (and enjoy it very much). The NHT 3's are mounted on the front wall, but the whole wall is covered with 2" sound absorbing foam and there is foam around the room at so they image very well.

Does anyone know exactly what stands the Threes are on in the image way back in post number 15 of this thread ?