Things are really "cooking" over at that other forum.

Hah! I think my wife just joined ;)

I don't think anyone is showing off a system that will compete with what DEQX is doing for less money, though I can't imagine someone else hasn't figured out something.

Is the math just too hard to handle on a desktop computer? Seems like it should all be doable in software, but I've never written any code to do DSP stuff, so I don't know if current processors are fast enough. But I like the idea of here's the software, now bring your own computer and amps and rig them up to our speakers. The market would probably hate it, but if it's feasible it'd be cheaper in terms of hardware...

Also as you can notice, NHT weekly blogs and e-newsletters quickly become monthly, then yearly, then......... it's just NHT style.

It's part of that whole "bad at marketing" thing.

Math is easy, but the algorithms to get it done quickly are hard.

Math is easy, but the algorithms to get it done quickly are hard.

Yeah, by easy/hard I was wondering how computationally intensive it was.

Current processors are plenty fast enough. I suspect the issue is interrupts. You see it a lot with emulation software. It can be solved, but it takes a lot of effort. Add to that the certainty it would be low volume you get a very expensive package around 70% of the hardware solution cost.

This would be an interesting topic for Hidley to chime in on.

Current processors are plenty fast enough. I suspect the issue is interrupts. You see it a lot with emulation software. It can be solved, but it takes a lot of effort. Add to that the certainty it would be low volume you get a very expensive package around 70% of the hardware solution cost.

You're basing the 70% number on the cost of software development? Surely it couldn't be too hard to handle interrupts if you had a multi-core processor. I dunno--none of my code has to work reliably in real time. Or, at this point, work reliably.

I just keep eyeing this Mac mini on my equipment shelf and thinking about what could be :-) The processing seems to be the best place to cut cost on an Xd-style system. Moore's law and all...

This would be an interesting topic for Hidley to chime in on.

Yes it would!

You're basing the 70% number on the cost of software development? Surely it couldn't be too hard to handle interrupts if you had a multi-core processor. I dunno--none of my code has to work reliably in real time. Or, at this point, work reliably.

I just keep eyeing this Mac mini on my equipment shelf and thinking about what could be :-) The processing seems to be the best place to cut cost on an Xd-style system. Moore's law and all...



Yes it would!

Actually, I'm basing that on my experience with real time HMIs and PDP11/Vax emulation. They work fine under (insert favorite OS) environment until timing becomes ultra critical, like I assume it would with the type of shaping were are talking about here. It is hard enough to do that only a few companies in the world are good at it. The last software I deployed was roughly 70% the cost of a dedicated hardware platform that accomplished the same thing. The advantage was that now the hardware can be supported with off the shelf components. Being a hardware guy, that is important to me. That was five years ago, and I realize things can/do change rapidly.

I'm sure I can be done, just not sure it would be profitable. That, of course, is the name of the game. :)

It is equally possible that my experience is completely irrelevant in this case and the anecdotal evidence does not apply. Perhaps it isn't the same thing at all...

Jack?

NHT 2.5i Front
NHT M6 Center
NHT M6 Rear
NHT SuperZero Surround Back
Velodyne HGS-12 on auralex gramma

What is wrong with this system?

It will never sound great because the M6 crossover inverts polarity to the midrange and tweeter... this type of design is also used in the 3.3, 2.9, AC2, VR Series and M5.

What does that mean?

The Center and Rears will be out-of-phase with the other speakers in the system from the Woofer/Midrange crossover point on up... and reversing the leads will obviously make it out-of-phase from that point down... it's a no win situation.
If you can't hear this you might want to have your ears checked... phase is an essential element of proper sound reproduction along with dynamics, uniform amplitude and dispersion...

What is the solution?

Complete a MATCHED system...

The big thing that DEQX has is the algorithms that cut the time needed to do steep crossovers and make them time/phase coherent. Otherwise, you get into some serious latency. As I understood it, NHT was going to license the software and build their own units after they bought an obligatory 1000 boards from DEQX. They felt they could build their own box much less money and I agree. The $2000 NAD T175 could easily be converted into a full blown DEQX processor with features and quality well beyond the XdA and PDC2. I pushed DEQX in the licensing direction as much as possible, but maybe they're trying to be Apple? Or maybe they just don't have people signing up. Not sure. A DEQX box should only be about $1000-$1500 retail. A 5.1 box should only be $2500 or $3K. That would make it hugely sellable.

What is wrong with this system?

It will never sound great because the M6 crossover inverts polarity to the midrange and tweeter... this type of design is also used in the 3.3, 2.9, AC2, VR Series and M5.

At the closeout deals, it's better to have 5-7 M5s or M6s and then keep the 2.5is for music either there or in another room.

What would a DEQX system run for a home theater?

What would a DEQX system run for a home theater?

Right now? $10K-$15K, just for the processing. Not sure why the cost is so high, except i think it is made in Australia and the dollar sucks right now. They don't have an all in one 5.1 o 7.1 box though. I tried to get some companies to adopt the DEQX crossover algorithms for bass management. DEQX has so many possible uses, yet none of them have taken off because of the cost of the currently proprietary box. The XdA cost $3300 of the $6000 price. Imagine if they could have built them overseas in bulk and had the price more like $1300. If you can build a decent 7-channel receiver with processing, digital inputs, volume control, HDMI, etc for that much money, it shouldn't be hard to build a 4-channel amp with processing for that much money and still pay DEQX a healthy licensing check. Heck, the NAD T765 chassis at $2K could be pretty easily redesigned to be a stereo DEQX 'receiver' with its modular card structure. And don't think I haven't tried to convince NAD of that.

What is wrong with this system?

It will never sound great because the M6 crossover inverts polarity to the midrange and tweeter... this type of design is also used in the 3.3, 2.9, AC2, VR Series and M5.

What does that mean?

The Center and Rears will be out-of-phase with the other speakers in the system from the Woofer/Midrange crossover point on up... and reversing the leads will obviously make it out-of-phase from that point down... it's a no win situation.
If you can't hear this you might want to have your ears checked... phase is an essential element of proper sound reproduction along with dynamics, uniform amplitude and dispersion...

What is the solution?

Complete a MATCHED system...

I'm almost afraid to ask!

I have three M5s - L,C,R
and am using Super Ones for the two rear channels.

Do I also have a phase problem?????

Maybe, but not like you'd have if you had different fronts!

We found this once on a customer's B&W system by accident - it just didn't sound right, then I figured out that the center needed to by wired in reverse.

A DEQX box should only be about $1000-$1500 retail. A 5.1 box should only be $2500 or $3K. That would make it hugely sellable.

I guess that's what I was getting at. Why should the box cost so much? I assumed that part of the price in the case of the XdA was for the amps, so just let people BYOA, and that the other thing keeping the cost from coming down was the choice of chipset. If the software could be made to run well on commodity hardware... but you won't convince audiophiles to route their line stage through a PC any time soon, although I just love that idea. But there should be plenty of ways to drive the price down. It just seems none of them have been done, maybe due to stubbornness on the part of DEQX.

Also, keep in mind that it must be done properly in order to realize it's superior potential.

Look at how "they" have managed to screw up digital music. You have people longing for vinyl instead of aluminum...

I too love the idea of DSP as it promises affordable, superior sound in most any space. No more $40K systems in dedicated, 3000 cubic foot rooms (unless that's just the way you like to roll). It has to be done correctly and allowed to evolve however, or we will end up with Ipods attached to Bose Wave Radios.

It has to be done correctly and allowed to evolve however, or we will end up with Ipods attached to Bose Wave Radios.

Indeed. You only have to look at SRS WOW and the iTunes "enhancer" and other such cheap tricks to see what happens when DSP falls into the wrong hands.

Mark, artex4special has been very polite on this thread. I can't comment about S&V members on this site or I will be banned from this forum, but everyone knows that their forum members are not polite.

When I asked if he was a member of the S&V forum, it wasn't because he was being rude. It was for another reason that I thought was painfully obvious. :p

Normally, I just ignore him and his cohort leopaulio, but I let that darned Sneezy bait me in on this one this time. :o

Got the xd 2.1. I have to say, it is difficult to make music sound bad - you can't say that about some high end gears. Good job. Thank you.

Congrats! Spend the $600 and get a second XdW (and then add the appropriate filters). It really is a big upgrade over the single sub system.

Besides, the XdW is well worth $600 as a sub unto itself. It's a shame it won't work as a conventional sub without the XdA, cause it would then be by far the best sub on the market for the $$$. ;)

I have the special dark classic 4 and 3c up front. I want to match up the surrounds I know the classic 3 is prefered but what else works well and has anybody see any on sale? The 3 is hard to find.

Thanks

About the only thing still readily available in SD for surrounds is yet another pair of Fours for like $1000 shipped.

Nice to know they're still alive and kicking. I'm still tempted to pull the trigger on the Xd and sell all my 7.1 equipment. Two channel is so much simpler.

Bingo! We have another winner! :D

It will be interested to see what they come up with for the next iteration of Xd with the "smaller, cheaper, faster ...."...etc as mentioned in the blog.

I always thought that future generations of speaker lines, like maybe the next generation of Evos, would have a defeatable crossover option so you could buy and enjoy the speakers as is in the conventional sense now, and then add the DEQX processing later in a separate box to future generations of Controllers/Power5s if you wanted to.

What is wrong with this system?

It will never sound great because the M6 crossover inverts polarity to the midrange and tweeter... this type of design is also used in the 3.3, 2.9, AC2, VR Series and M5.

What does that mean?

The Center and Rears will be out-of-phase with the other speakers in the system from the Woofer/Midrange crossover point on up... and reversing the leads will obviously make it out-of-phase from that point down... it's a no win situation.
If you can't hear this you might want to have your ears checked... phase is an essential element of proper sound reproduction along with dynamics, uniform amplitude and dispersion...

What is the solution?

Complete a MATCHED system...

Hence my previous comment here: ;)

Even though you had plenty of time to try to search to find the answer, you still didn't answer the question. Once again - what did you do about the polarity? I mean, surely, someone who can hear the difference in their 2.5s biwired with straightwire octave II and crossed over to a sealed sub (and how much better they sound than M6s in the exact same situation) along with how much more accurate and better servo Velos blend with and are better suited for NHT monitors can detect phase reversals when he hears them, no? ;)

I'm afraid you're only wasting your time B2R. We've already tried to tell him this before a while back on this thread, but he wouldn't listen. :(

What would a DEQX system run for a home theater?

As "little" as $7800 for a 6.1 system, and that price includes the speakers, sub, power amps, stands, wire and cable all included: :p

http://www.listenup.com/NHT+Xd+Home+Theater+Speaker+System-p-Xd6.1System-p-.html

Add another $600 for each additional XdW to add to the system:

http://www.listenup.com/NHT+XdW+Powered+Subwoofer-p-XDWsub-p-.html

I would highly recommend adding at least one more for a 6.2 system. ;)

Indeed. You only have to look at SRS WOW and the iTunes "enhancer" and other such cheap tricks to see what happens when DSP falls into the wrong hands.

They've even got tube things for ipods now. :o

I'm almost afraid to ask!

I have three M5s - L,C,R
and am using Super Ones for the two rear channels.

Do I also have a phase problem?????

Why not just get some L5s on closeout from ListenUp to have perfectly matching surrounds?

Why not just get some L5s on closeout from ListenUp to have perfectly matching surrounds?

Listen to Mark... your system will sound so much better and be phase-coherent...

Congrats! Spend the $600 and get a second XdW (and then add the appropriate filters). It really is a big upgrade over the single sub system.

Besides, the XdW is well worth $600 as a sub unto itself. It's a shame it won't work as a conventional sub without the XdA, cause it would then be by far the best sub on the market for the $$$. ;)

YES... this system sounds so much better with 2 subs and the filter set that goes with... much more dynamic and fills in that missing upper bass of the 2.1 system...

I am tempted to spring for XD... what finish are the ones that Listen Up is selling?

I am tempted to spring for XD... what finish are the ones that Listen Up is selling?

The maple & burgundy only, but it looks much better in person than it does in the pics. I thought at first from the pics that it was fugly, but then when I actually saw it for real, it wasn't half bad after all.

It's too bad they also didn't have the two tone SD/piano black finish as well, so that either SD or black Classics would have matched better cosmetically as CCs and/or surrounds.

Hmmm, I wonder if ListenUp will eventually have the MXd80s/S80s on clearance too?

~snip~, but I let that darned Sneezy bait me in on this one this time. :o

I exist only to serve. :)

Hmmm, I wonder if ListenUp will eventually have the MXd80s/S80s on clearance too?

Now that would be cool.

Hmmm, I wonder if ListenUp will eventually have the MXd80s/S80s on clearance too?

When they do, and when you buy it, I comming to hear it.
Allen

I don't think this is happening, but don't know. I think they are out of DSP boxes to run them. I imagine what units existed were either kept or sold to friends in the audio industry, but I'm not really in the loop these days.

I apologize in advance for posting this in a public forum, but I'm getting really tired of explaining this 5 to 10 times per day. I think posting here will take care of 40-50% of my problem.

I am no longer an employee of NHT.

Please do not send me questions asking how to set up your NHT products, find parts for it, etc. NHT has a customer service department that is capable of answering these questions. I receive 5 to 10 PMs and e-mails a day from people asking these types of questions. The other day I received a PM from a very rude AVS member who was apparently upset that I hadn't answered their PM, which I actually never received, fast enough. That was the last straw.

I'm trying to run a business where the primary thing that I'm selling is information. I can't afford to spend half of my day, giving my time away any more.

<Rant off>

Somebody needs a bubble bath, his ducky and his woobie, not to mention a secretary and PR guy.

Ya gotta admit Jack, you suck at returning messages, even when people are trying to give you money for your expertise.

You might consider being flattered that people seek you out, rather than bitch about it. Especially since most of these people would seek out your future products if they're not turned off. I suggest getting a good nights sleep, then have a do-over. The Edit button is your friend.

ok, i'm back. At this point, i can not really afford a matched NHT system. As mentioned before i have their HDP-2 and two pairs of Onix XLS speakers. I enjoy the direct radiating sound more so i decided to use the XLS in the back instead. Should i be reversing the polarity on the XLS? Sounds good to me as of now, but at times, esp on PLIIx, i feel as though i could not hear the surrounds even though i am literally surrounded by them. BTW, all of them are crossed at 80hz.

Unfortunately, in this realm, that is a guaranteed way of getting more PMS (sic). :)

He's got a point though. If you look at what the Denon representative unleashed on himself by offering information and taking feedback in those BluRay and receiver threads you can see just how silly it can get. What started as a very useful source of inside info turned into what basically became a flooded tier one customer service thread. If one reads through some of the posts there you can imagine the kind of inane queries Jack is getting (and will continue to get). Honestly, there are people STILL asking "What is wrong with my (insert low-end model number) receiver" and the guy abandoned all hope of the thread being useful more than a month ago. The above "rant" may not be the most elegant way to handle such a situation, but he is an engineer. Having worked for or with a couple of dozen of them I can say with some confidence that social elegance is generally not their strong suit. :)

Oh, Jack, you do know you can turn the PM function off, right?

Anyway, it is what it is. Leave him be.

Allow me to translate for Jack -


Hey guys, I want to apologize, I've been very busy getting my new business off the ground, so I haven't had time to reply to all of the e-mails and PMs I've been getting. As some of you know, I am no longer an employee at NHT, so while I'm flattered by all the requests for information, your best bet is to contact NHT directly at 800-648-9993 as they have the staff to deal with these kinds of questions. Unfortunately, I need to move on and focus on my business alone, so I can't really be a resource for NHT information with the time I have available. Thanks for all the kind words, I hope we can bring to market other products other under banners that you will appreciate in the future. Sincerely,

Jack

Allow me to translate for Jack -

Hey you are good at that. You should start your own PR firm.

Yep, you just translated Engineerese to Salesenese.

Hah! I've been trying to get NHT to farm out all customer service, internet stuff, marketing, brochures, advertising, sales training, etc to me for years now, part time or full time, but they won't have me, even when I offered to do some of it for free. While i sometimes play armchair engineer, as i did take a lot of engineering, i actually graduated with a BS in BS ;)

Now if only I could get Jack to design some products I want to be designed, but I have inferred the idea that if I have to ask how much it would cost...........

ok, i'm back. At this point, i can not really afford a matched NHT system. As mentioned before i have their HDP-2 and two pairs of Onix XLS speakers. I enjoy the direct radiating sound more so i decided to use the XLS in the back instead. Should i be reversing the polarity on the XLS? Sounds good to me as of now, but at times, esp on PLIIx, i feel as though i could not hear the surrounds even though i am literally surrounded by them. BTW, all of them are crossed at 80hz.

If you're doing everything right, you shouldn't hear the surrounds, just surround sound. PLIIx will only give you the surround sound that is in the recording. You should get another pair of XLS for sides and that will help. Ditch the HDP2s if you're doing 7.1.

Wow, this thread is absolutely incredible! Such a great resource. After reading through dozens of posts, though, I have a couple of questions (sorry if these have been asked repeatedly, but I wasn't able to find exact answers).

I have a system comprised of two T5 towers, an M5 center and two L5s for the surrounds. I keep reading about the X1 mod, and know that I need to contact NHT to get it done, but can anyone tell me how long it takes to complete, what the cost is, and if it will make a big difference in my current system (I don't have a dedicated subwoofer...just the B5 modules on the towers)?

Next, how much would adding another A1 to the setup help the sound quality, if at all? With the great closeout deals that have been showing up lately, I'm wondering if I should pounce on one of these the next time I see a good price.

Finally, what would be the best subwoofer to add to this system? I'm running in a fairly large, open room and I'd like to have some more "punch" to the bass so that I can feel it more during movies. Any of the Evolutions look good, but what will give me the most bang for my buck? Right now, I'm running an old Yamaha DSP-A1 as my receiver, and don't plan to upgrade for another year (I have Blu-ray, but I'm not wired for 7.1 yet and want to complete some in-wall wiring before adding more speakers).

Thanks for any help!

Allow me to translate for Jack -Awesome. Does that mean Jack gets to translate when you turn back into your usual self (full moon coming up next week!), or can anyone have a go?

And too bad you beat me to it, I was going to have a go at translating for Jack too. Only, it was going to be the real version, with some actual, well deserved ass kicking.

Seriously, though, cut the guy some slack, you dumba**es. He's contributed a lot to this forum, not to mention the speakers we're all listening to. If he's fed up with the clueless, obnoxious twits around here, nobody can blame him for that.

When they do, and when you buy it, I comming to hear it.
Allen

Sorry Allen, but even if they were to offer the MXd-80s/S80s at close out, I still very seriously doubt that I would get them (then again, I also said before that I would never do up an all Xd surround system either :o).

I've never even heard them, but I'm just skeptical that they would do music very well since they have to positioned horizontally, and while I have no doubts that they are awesome for movies, virtually any speaker line can do movie soundtracks well IMO since it's far less critical than music, just so long as it have a halfway descent CC speaker and sub/bass system.

OTOH, a single MXd80/S80 would make a killer CC speaker in a 6.2 Xd system tied together by a Controller to convert it to full on 7.2. ;)

Wow, this thread is absolutely incredible! Such a great resource. After reading through dozens of posts, though, I have a couple of questions (sorry if these have been asked repeatedly, but I wasn't able to find exact answers).

I have a system comprised of two T5 towers, an M5 center and two L5s for the surrounds. I keep reading about the X1 mod, and know that I need to contact NHT to get it done, but can anyone tell me how long it takes to complete, what the cost is, and if it will make a big difference in my current system (I don't have a dedicated subwoofer...just the B5 modules on the towers)?

First off, the B5s are dedicated subs, and damned good ones at that. Secondly, to get the 20 Hz X1 mod, you need two additional 12" Evo sub drivers in your system/room (in any combination of cabinets - A single W1, two W2s, or even two more B5s). Unless and until you get those, forget about the 20 Hz X1 mod.

Next, how much would adding another A1 to the setup help the sound quality, if at all? With the great closeout deals that have been showing up lately, I'm wondering if I should pounce on one of these the next time I see a good price.

For movies, not much, if any at all, but for 2 channel music, it will make a subtle, but definitely noticeable improvement.

Finally, what would be the best subwoofer to add to this system? I'm running in a fairly large, open room and I'd like to have some more "punch" to the bass so that I can feel it more during movies. Any of the Evolutions look good, but what will give me the most bang for my buck? Right now, I'm running an old Yamaha DSP-A1 as my receiver, and don't plan to upgrade for another year (I have Blu-ray, but I'm not wired for 7.1 yet and want to complete some in-wall wiring before adding more speakers).

Thanks for any help!

Don't add any other kind of sub or subs to Evo subs except for more Evo subs. :p If you want more, simply add at least two more sub drivers to the system in any cabinet combination as explained above, and then get the 20 Hz X1 mod. I would recommend trying to find a couple of W2 cabinets (from the U2 system) since you are going to get another A1 anyway and obviously already have the X1.

Seriously, though, cut the guy some slack, you dumba**es. He's contributed a lot to this forum, not to mention the speakers we're all listening to. If he's fed up with the clueless, obnoxious twits around here, nobody can blame him for that.

I have to agree. I'd be pissed off too if people I didn't know sent me demanding e-mails about projects I used to work on. This is a hobby for us but it's still work for Jack.

Although John's version was undoubtedly more political.

In other news I'm trying to convince a guy to invest in a surround system of Absolute Zeroes or PSB Alpha B1s. Apparently the wife thinks they're too big, a concept which I find baffling. Pretty sure we can just blame Bose for giving spouses everywhere unrealistic expectations of size.

I have to agree. I'd be pissed off too if people I didn't know sent me demanding e-mails about projects I used to work on. This is a hobby for us but it's still work for Jack.

I get PMs all the time from people who in some cases I've never even heard of before, but they are never "demanding" and they are usually questions that have already been answered before (such as the ones I just answered above), so I simply copy and paste the exact same stuff over and over again (as I just did in my last post above). :p


Then again, this is only a hobby to me and not a job either. :o

Well, there's always the Alpha LRs if his balls are completely removed. I just tell guys to start complaining that the refrigerator is too big and it should be mounted to the ceiling and that the SUV should be replaced by a Smart car.

Awesome. Does that mean Jack gets to translate when you turn back into your usual self (full moon coming up next week!), or can anyone have a go?

Hey, I'm always a dick ;)

Well, there's always the Alpha LRs if his balls are completely removed. I just tell guys to start complaining that the refrigerator is too big and it should be mounted to the ceiling and that the SUV should be replaced by a Smart car.

I think the LRs were in one of the PSB systems we spec'ed out for him. We also did some with in-walls and in-ceilings, but it felt dirty.

Well, there's always the Alpha LRs if his balls are completely removed. I just tell guys to start complaining that the refrigerator is too big and it should be mounted to the ceiling and that the SUV should be replaced by a Smart car.

Thankfully, my girlfriend knows that the speakers and I are a package deal. Can't have one without the other...

I'm still enjoying the image of a mini-fridge hanging from the ceiling, btw. Thanks for that.

Finally, what would be the best subwoofer to add to this system? I'm running in a fairly large, open room and I'd like to have some more "punch" to the bass so that I can feel it more during movies.

Really? Well, add a U1 if you must, or get some B5s for sides or rears. That way the phase will be identical, then get the 20Hz mod.

Seriously, though, cut the guy some slack, you dumba**es. He's contributed a lot to this forum, not to mention the speakers we're all listening to. If he's fed up with the clueless, obnoxious twits around here, nobody can blame him for that.

Also, to be fair to the clueless, obnoxious twits around here, Jack's threshold for losing his patience is pretty low. Especially because he uses the 'maybe if I ignore them, they'll go away' technique, but that only works on some people. Certainly not me, as he well knows ;)

Really? Well, add a U1 if you must, or get some B5s for sides or rears. That way the phase will be identical, then get the 20Hz mod.


Yeah. My main problem right now is that the room is around 800 square feet (very nice finished basement that the previous owner completed as a pool/darts room). The room is a long rectangle (or L shape), so the shape is perfect for home theater, but it needs to be split in half by a wall or something to make it a bit more manageable in terms of acoustics. Getting that deep rumble that you can feel is difficult because of the openness, so although it sounds good, it just doesn't have the impact that you would expect.

Music sounds wonderful out of the T5s, and it's a fantastic system for home theater. I've had the T5s & M5 for about 4 years now and really love them, and picked up the L5s when they went on sale, so I just want to make sure that I'm getting the most out of my system.

That's what we did with my brother's basement - sealed off the HT area so that he could get that done well. Bass really sucks in an L-shaped room.

Hi All,
I had Rob (rmilesh) over to the house this last weekend for some music and brews. As you know, Rob has been looking for a suitable amp to power his mids+uppers on his C4s in a bi-amp configuration. I have my system bi-amped with Monarchy Audio class A and Power5. Rob brought by his OPPO universal player so we could demo some sacd 2-channel and surround; he also brought over some beer and music. Needless to say, we had a pretty fun time! I hadnt listen to sacd surround and wow!!! I think Rob is happy w/the MA amp and the sound it puts out. This was fun for me because we pretty much have identical systems except for the second amp...its interesting to see how both systems compare. Rob may or may not post his findings here but I just wanted to publicly convey me gratitude for his visit. Now I need an sacd player! :)

Regards,
Ricky

Tube amp question:
Im still considering listening to a tube amp to power my mids+uppers on my C4s...Ive noticed many amps give you a choice of either 4, 8 or sometimes 16 ohm connections. Which is the appropriate hookup for the C4s?

Regards,
Ricky

Thanks again for inviting me over Ricky. It was great to meet another member of our forum and to hear the whole Nht classic system nice and loud. I dont get to hear mine as loud as Id like since Im in an apt. Ricky's addition of the Monarchy Audio SM-70 Pro bi amping the uppers of the C4 is a definite improvement over my set up using the Power 5 running full range. The edginess of the standard set up is gone and is replaced by more bass control in the bottom end and a little more mellow smoothness in the mids and tweeter. Now that I have my crossover, Im visiting Agon frequently to find one of those little class A gems!!!

As for the OPPO 980, Ive been really happy with it both as a dvd player and as an sacd/dvda solution. Hopefully they will come out with a blu-ray player in the future.

Rob,
I think I saw a Forte1a class A amp up on Gon...

Regards,
Ricky

Hi All,
I had Rob (rmilesh) over to the house this last weekend for some music and brews. As you know, Rob has been looking for a suitable amp to power his mids+uppers on his C4s in a bi-amp configuration. I have my system bi-amped with Monarchy Audio class A and Power5. Rob brought by his OPPO universal player so we could demo some sacd 2-channel and surround; he also brought over some beer and music. Needless to say, we had a pretty fun time! I hadnt listen to sacd surround and wow!!! I think Rob is happy w/the MA amp and the sound it puts out. This was fun for me because we pretty much have identical systems except for the second amp...its interesting to see how both systems compare. Rob may or may not post his findings here but I just wanted to publicly convey me gratitude for his visit. Now I need an sacd player! :)

Regards,
Ricky
Be careful with your comparison between similar setups in different rooms - the room makes more of a difference than the electronics (or the speakers unless you have Xds). Better to change the amp configuration in the same room.

Peter

Allow me to translate for Jack -

There are times, John, when you haven't been the most tactful person, but this is well written. I often tell my wife that my problem is that I don't have good enough writers...

Jack has been HUGELY helpful to all of us on this board, and IMHO is certainly entitled to say whatever he wants on AVS, in any tone.

John, you should get out of your comfort zone and HIRE Jack (he's a consultant now) to design the speakers you think would be great and would sell. That's what he's there for, and that would give you the chance to control the marketing, sales, etc. I'm not joking here--just DO IT!

Hey, Jack! If you're reading this, I have a question for you. What is the correct alignment setting for an '06 Mustang GT on R-compound tires driven on a road course? I just had my (non-Mustang - we've discussed it) aligned and corner-balanced with -2.25F/-2.75R, which was as far as it would go, and what an amazing difference!
you other guys are all on the wrong board! ;)

Peter

Be careful with your comparison between similar setups in different rooms - the room makes more of a difference than the electronics (or the speakers unless you have Xds). Better to change the amp configuration in the same room.

Peter

Hi Peter,
Thanks for the reminder.

Ricky

Jack has been HUGELY helpful to all of us on this board, and IMHO is certainly entitled to say whatever he wants on AVS, in any tone.





People should ask Mr. Hidley questions on this thread rather than pestering him with E-mails and PMs. Like he said, he does not work for NHT anymore. If he wants to answer a question, he will do it sooner of later. If not, then that is life!

This is a bit off topic, but I just bought one of those off air DTV to analog TV converters (Best Buy store brand) to try with my analog televisions. They work quite well. The audio output is only downmixed R & L DD 5.1 at best, but the bass goes much deeper than the analog signal. PL-2 in my receiver produces nice surround sound also, and it is clean as can be.

Picture quality is very nice even though it is limited to a video output. I have two coupons to use, so $20 out of pocket is a great deal for the unit. I am not going to buy a new DTV television to replace every television that I own, so $20 is a great deal considering what you get in improved picture and sound quality. I think the off air picture is better than a standard cable signal!

Anyone have NHT E1 rack ears they'd be willing to part with, or know of a source?

Anyone have NHT E1 rack ears they'd be willing to part with, or know of a source?

I've been looking for two pairs for some time and I haven't been able to find any. Let me know if you have any luck...

There are times, John, when you haven't been the most tactful person, but this is well written. I often tell my wife that my problem is that I don't have good enough writers...

I have to be tactful every day in my job, so i kinda let loose on the forum!

John, you should get out of your comfort zone and HIRE Jack (he's a consultant now) to design the speakers you think would be great and would sell. That's what he's there for, and that would give you the chance to control the marketing, sales, etc. I'm not joking here--just DO IT!

Hey, I tried, several times! I can only assume he's not terribly interested in working with me.

Hey, I tried, several times! I can only assume he's not terribly interested in working with me.


Send him a check for $100,000 as a retainer. He will be very happy to work for you as a paid consultant!

Hey, Jack! If you're reading this, I have a question for you. What is the correct alignment setting for an '06 Mustang GT on R-compound tires driven on a road course? I just had my (non-Mustang - we've discussed it) aligned and corner-balanced with -2.25F/-2.75R, which was as far as it would go, and what an amazing difference!
you other guys are all on the wrong board! ;)

Peter

The CORRECT alignment would be an M3. :p

People should ask Mr. Hidley questions on this thread rather than pestering him with E-mails and PMs. Like he said, he does not work for NHT anymore. If he wants to answer a question, he will do it sooner of later. If not, then that is life!

Correct. We are not entitled to his knowledge. It is a courtesy and should be viewed as such.

Send him a check for $100,000 as a retainer. He will be very happy to work for you as a paid consultant!

Yes, all I need is about 9 other people to get the ball rolling ;)

And, if anybody can figure out how to replace the analog input of an XdA with a digital one, let me know, as i have my 'preamp' with variable digital out.

... Im visiting Agon frequently to find one of those little class A gems!!!

About a year or so ago, I had the opportunity to buy the now discontinued Marantz PM7200 integrated amp, rated at 2 x 95 watts (RMS) into 8 Ohms at 0.03% THD, at a close out price:

http://www.marantz.com/archive/e_pm7200.pdf

At first glance, it looks about like any other IA from any of it's competitors in it's price class, such as those from NAD, Cambridge Audio, Music Hall, Rotel, etc., from which they are all so good that you really can't go wrong no matter which you chose, but yet at the same time, none of them really standing out head and shoulders above the rest. However, this Marantz had a feature where you could send it into Class A mode for 25 watts x 2. :eek:

I really wanted to try it on my M5/U2 office rig (in effect, a set of T5s), and in that small room and it's obvious near field listening environment, 25 Class A watts x 2 would have been plenty. Unfortunately, it didn't have true pre-outs/main-ins that are necessary for the X1. Instead, it had a "processor loop" in/out that, as I understand it, the circuit break is after the inputs, but before the volume control, so that pretty much closed the book on that one. :(:mad::o

I've also heard the Class A Music Hall Mambo integrated amp:

http://www.musichallaudio.com/mmf_products.asp?show=true&prolook=mambo

... on a pair of 2.9s before, and it was one of those combinations that made you sit back and say "Now THAT'S what I'm talkin' 'bout!" :D

It's "only" rated at 50 watts x 2, but it's very conservatively rated. It weighs 50 lbs., and 50 Class A watts seems about like 200 A/B watts. ;)

... when you haven't been the most tactful person ...

To quote Cedric the Entertainer in Intolerable Cruelty- " If you want tact, hire a tactician". :p ;):D

Be careful with your comparison between similar setups in different rooms - the room makes more of a difference than the electronics (or the speakers unless you have Xds). Better to change the amp configuration in the same room.

Peter

Plus 1.

Music sounds wonderful out of the T5s, and it's a fantastic system for home theater.

I'm quoting this just cause I felt like it should be said again. :D

I'm quoting this just cause I felt like it should be said again. :D

Haha...thanks Mark. I can't say it enough. I originally got in to NHT when a friend bought a pair of 2.9s in the mid 90s and I was blown away by their imaging. I bought my Evos as soon as I could, and finally picked up the L5s when they dropped in price (and I might pick up another pair to use when I eventually make the jump to 7.1). The whole system is just incredible when set up correctly (I'm still playing with my DSP-A1 to get the surround delay just right). I have terminal tweak-itis though, so I'm constantly looking for ways to improve the sound in our home theater.

The CORRECT alignment would be an M3. :p
Jack knows Mustangs.

Peter

I've also heard the Class A Music Hall Mambo integrated amp:

http://www.musichallaudio.com/mmf_products.asp?show=true&prolook=mambo

... on a pair of 2.9s before, and it was one of those combinations that made you sit back and say "Now THAT'S what I'm talkin' 'bout!" :D

It's "only" rated at 50 watts x 2, but it's very conservatively rated. It weighs 50 lbs., and 50 Class A watts seems about like 200 A/B watts. ;)[/QUOTE]


Ive been looking for one of these along with the monarchy and found that they are tough to find. Evidently Music Hall stopped producing them a year or so ago. Definitely high on my list.

anyone need m6's

^^^ I'm only trying to help here, but why not move the 2.5s to a dedicated, secondary 2 channel system, keep your M6s, move the two M6 side surrounds to the main L/R (vertically), keep the M6 CC (horizontally), and then pick up 2, 3, or 4 L5s (depending on if you're doing 5, 6, or 7.1) on clearance from ListenUp for surrounds?

This, along with your Velo sub(s) would easily top any system you could possibly put together based around your 2.5s as mains.

i just got a great deal from one of my audio stores here in va. so, i am selling my whole nht setup. including selling the 2.5is. thanks for the suggestion mark. so any needs some nht for their 2channel/ht setup. i will give you a great deal!!!

Ive been looking for one of these along with the monarchy and found that they are tough to find. Evidently Music Hall stopped producing them a year or so ago. Definitely high on my list.

They did. It was discontinued about 2 years ago. Interestingly enough, it also has it's own upsampling DAC and digital inputs, and I just happen to know of somebody who bought one on closeout and still has it new in box that hasn't even been opened yet. ;)

i just got a great deal from one of my audio stores here in va. so, i am selling my whole nht setup. including selling the 2.5is. thanks for the suggestion mark. so any needs some nht for their 2channel/ht setup. i will give you a great deal!!!

So, did you get the Revels?

(I'm still playing with my DSP-A1 to get the surround delay just right).

I picked up one of those used a while back for a descent price. I wish more brands made combination surround pre-processors/multi-channel integrated amps like that today (basically AVRs, but without the nasty tuner section in the same chassis as the power amp section). Vincent Audio is the only company that still makes one to this day that I'm aware of. :(

The DSP A1 actually has dual, separate L/R sub outs, so you could do true stereo bass on the T5s without even using the X1's high pass out if you wanted to. As I understand it, it's crossover, both high and low pass, is fixed at 90 Hz, but on a pair of T5s, there would be no problem at all with localization. If anything, you could only crank them even louder. :D

I have terminal tweak-itis though, so I'm constantly looking for ways to improve the sound in our home theater.

Don't we all? :o

So, did you get the Revels?

in the process

Congrats!

Just wondering, but did you consider the NHT Xd on closeout from ListenUp:?

http://www.listenup.com/lu/merchant.mvc?

man with the deal i am getting, honestly no

I might be selling some M6s, M5s, and dual U2(4 subs total) and x1w/20hz mod. All of them new. Shoot me a PM if interested.

So, is this going to be the ex NHT owner's thread now? :eek:

So, is this going to be the ex NHT owner's thread now? :eek:


I think that you gave up first.:D

I think that you gave up first.:D

Damned! You beat me to it. I was gonna ask if this was the ex-NHT dealer thread too. :p

I think that you gave up first.:D

Hah, true! But i still have all NHT at the house. I guess i'll have to rotate that out for PSB, Era or Revel, depending on the app. Doubt I'll sell Xd ever though.

Hah, true! But i still have all NHT at the house. I guess i'll have to rotate that out for PSB, Era or Revel, depending on the app. Doubt I'll sell Xd ever though.

All great brands for sure. I've especially admired PSB product over the years - a true Canadian success story. Giant killers in many ways ...just like NHT has been. Well, I still love my NHT Classic system with bi-amped C4's and I owe a lot to this forum and it's informative and helpful members for helping me out along the way. What an amazing thread. Indeed it influenced what I ended up buying and even where I bought my system from.;)

NHT Special Dark color. I need to touch up a speaker is there a color the special dark would match in the wold of auto touchup paint?

:(

Okay, I'll bump this thread with a completely useless comment:

I still love my NHT Classic 7.1 system! (okay, the surrounds are ST-4s, but sue me)

i need a center channel stand for an M5 to go along with a full T5/M5/L5 7.1 system. i was thinking about maybe buying a pair of p5s and using them for the center...any thoughts?

Bad move. The P5 orients the m5 vertically. As a center, it should be placed horizontally.

thats why i was going to buy a pair and stand them next to each other...and horizontally place the center

Well, that sounds like it would work, but you wouldn't be able to anchor the M5 to the P5.

Okay, I'll bump this thread with a completely useless comment:

I still love my NHT Classic 7.1 system! (okay, the surrounds are ST-4s, but sue me)

Umm, I have 4 ST4s and 3 SB3s for my 7.1...I agree, classics need love too!

I was reading over the L5 manual in anticipation of a pair of L5s arriving tomorrow for surround duties in my 5.1 system. I'm constrained by the room to rear wall placement (actually, they're replacing VS-2s that are up there now) -- the primary listening position is about 2' out from the back wall, and the two wall-mounted rears are about 6' to my left and my right, and 2' up from the listening position.

What wasn't clear to me from the manual was whether the L5s (in surround duty) should be mounted vertically or horizontally. I'd assumed the former until I read the manual. "If you are primarily listening from a position near or against a rear wall, you can place the rear channel speakers as showing in figure 4." Figure 4 shows the L5s mounted horizontally! Oddly, in figure 3, which discusses the placement of the L5 as a center, the rears in that figure are depicted not only vertically, but toe'd in, as well.

I can certainly mount them either way, but it'd be helpful to start with whatever the conventional "best practice" would be for the L5s as rears. If vertical, do I toe them? Or, do I mount them horizontally? And if horizontally, do I toe them downward?

These are to match my coming M5s as L/C/R, btw -- the center is also wall-mounted (the back of the cabinet is about 2.5" out from the wall, the front about 10.5"), tweeter at ear level, below the wall-mounted plasma, and the L and R are on shot-filled stands well out in the room, with a JL Audio Fathom 113 handling bass.

Another blog post worth reading:
http://nowhearthisblog.blogspot.com/

"Are we as an industry blaming the disappearance of hi-fi retail shops on the IPOD instead of a lack of consumer interest in traditional gear? Does anyone out there think that just maybe, audio manufacturers have avoided change for the last 20 years and we are now paying the price? ... We lost touch with our customers, and we won't get them back unless we change."

I was reading over the L5 manual in anticipation of a pair of L5s arriving tomorrow for surround duties in my 5.1 system. I'm constrained by the room to rear wall placement (actually, they're replacing VS-2s that are up there now) -- the primary listening position is about 2' out from the back wall, and the two wall-mounted rears are about 6' to my left and my right, and 2' up from the listening position.

What wasn't clear to me from the manual was whether the L5s (in surround duty) should be mounted vertically or horizontally. I'd assumed the former until I read the manual. "If you are primarily listening from a position near or against a rear wall, you can place the rear channel speakers as showing in figure 4." Figure 4 shows the L5s mounted horizontally! Oddly, in figure 3, which discusses the placement of the L5 as a center, the rears in that figure are depicted not only vertically, but toe'd in, as well.

I can certainly mount them either way, but it'd be helpful to start with whatever the conventional "best practice" would be for the L5s as rears. If vertical, do I toe them? Or, do I mount them horizontally? And if horizontally, do I toe them downward?

These are to match my coming M5s as L/C/R, btw -- the center is also wall-mounted (the back of the cabinet is about 2.5" out from the wall, the front about 10.5"), tweeter at ear level, below the wall-mounted plasma, and the L and R are on shot-filled stands well out in the room, with a JL Audio Fathom 113 handling bass.



You can do pretty much anything you want (or need) to do with those speakers. Click on the PHOTO section of the following link to Oliver Stone's NHT system (M-6s and L-5s). The surround speaker are mounted high, horizontal, and aimed down toward the listening position.


http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/installations/2162/installations-oliver-stones-radical-cinema.html

I can see why he did -- where he's got them, it wouldn't have looked right mounting them vertically. I guess if either approach isn't optimum over the other, outside of placement constraints, I'll just experiment.


You can do pretty much anything you want (or need) to do with those speakers. Click on the PHOTO section of the following link to Oliver Stone's NHT system (M-6s and L-5s). The surround speaker are mounted high, horizontal, and aimed down toward the listening position.


http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/installations/2162/installations-oliver-stones-radical-cinema.html

I have a pair I haven't mounted yet, and was going to mount vertically on a wide back wall, toe'd WAY in. But now I'm thinking of mounting them on the ceiling (only 7-1/2 feet) also toe'd way in. Any thoughts, anyone?

Peter

Click this link for what may be the final post to this thread...
http://bands.army.mil/music/bugle/calls/taps.mp3

Peter

Then again, maybe not!

Ja ist dieses Gewinde in der Tat kaput!

Yeah, well, I just got an e-mail saying there was a new rep for my area and that we should all tell him great things about NHT and that they were going to indoctrinate him into the 'NHT culture'. That usually takes a month, in which a great, hard working person with lots of energy becomes basically an inefficient and/or inept person with lots of excuses and a bad attitude. So i guess they laid off my best rep or he quit, knowing i was also done.

I believe it's just a matter of the thread having simply run it's course. I mean, think about about, there really isn't too much left that can possibly be discussed that hasn't been already at one point or another before on it.

Plus, there simply hasn't been anything new from NHT in a long while, and even worse, prolly won't be for maybe at least two years or so.

But something Allen said here:

I still think NHT should look at an Evo II system down the road. I think with an upgrade to the drivers and crossover cabinet stay the same but go back to the black. I mean they wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel here.
Allen

... got me to thinking - if the Evos were in fact discontinued only simply because SEAS quit making the drivers for them, since pretty much the exact same tweeter is already still in production (as used in the Twos, AZs, and AZC), why couldn't NHT simply use the same previous cabinets and crossovers, and just pop in the 5.25" and 6.5" drivers from the Classic Series into them, and then just come up with similar new 3" and 4" upper mid drivers for the M5/M6?

I don't know how the Classic drivers compare to the Evo drivers, but here is what Jack said previously about them as compared to the Super Audio drivers:

All of the woofers in the Classic series that are used in 3-ways have aluminum cones. Both of the woofers used in 2-ways have PP cones. All of the drivers in the line are manufactured in China. We did a ton of development work using FEA for the magnetics and mechanical issues. We ended up using virtually zero off the shelf components in all of the drivers. All of the drivers have shorting rings to reduce flux modulation, even the Absolute Zero. All of the woofers (except the 10" in the Four) have frames made of BMC, the same material used in the XdS baffle. The frames are about 4 times as stiff as the frames in the previous line (Super Audio).

If anything, it looks to me like the sound of such a speaker should still be warmer than the dome array Classics, but yet at the same time, with just a little more detail than the previous Evos, while hopefully not compromising dynamics any.

Thanks Mark

RBH uses aluminum. Even though they are not a big or well know name they do sound good. In fact down the road I want a pair of their 661 which is their M6 to compare to my M6.
Allen

Well, I've finally broken down and admitted that my 2nd A1 is useless. Without any way to use high/low pass, I can't utilize the stereo bass, and as such I've put my 2nd A1 up for sale. I could keep it and add more subs later, but I think the Evo subs will be too hard to find anyway, so I shouldn't regret selling it.

finally sold the nht m6's......... they served me well. go nht!!!

Ahhhh....if only I didn't have the T5s, I'd buy up some of the T6 and M6 systems that are on the market right now. It seems like everyone is selling theirs off at the moment (something like 3 on Audiogon, and I've seen a few on ebay).

It's definitely a nice time to pick up some of these if you missed out when they were full price. I've been debating picking up a second set of L5s for when I finally go to 7.1, but with the bargain basement prices I could almost pick up a second set of T5s to use as full-range surrounds (talk about overkill though).

I've been gone for a bit, and had to look back 4 pages to find you guys!

Where is a good place to get the A1s and X2? Or is it X2s and and A1? This is for the Classic 4s.

Thanks.

Where is a good place to get the A1s and X2? Or is it X2s and and A1? This is for the Classic 4s.

Thanks.
Someone is selling 4 A1s on Audiogon. Rather rude (so I didn't buy), but he's got them.

Peter

Just buy Outlaw M2200s instead.

Hi All.
I have a pair of NHT 2.3 bought a long time ago. Using them with a Marantz 7001 and 4 Mirage omni sats for surrounds. I need a center channel. Should I just keep bidding on vintage NHT products or is there something else I could use?
Thanks for any input,

Zaxdad

C'mon guys.
Just 3 more months of posting in this monster NHT Classic series thread
and we'll have our 3 year anniversary!

Maybe I can stir some interest.
I like to listen to vocal jazz on my desktop at low to medium volume and I am considering the Absolute Zero and the Verve V Small because they have the biggest drivers in the smallest package and I don’t have much desk space. Which one would be best? I will only be two or three feet away from the speakers (nearfield). Is it true you should have at least a 5” woofer for vocals? I have been told I should not buy a speaker that is too bright for nearfield listening. Are they bright speakers? If so, can you recommend something else? My desk is against the wall so I believe I should not get speakers with rear ports.

Thank you for your reply,
Jazzbot

jazzy, I would nominate the SB1, which show up pretty cheap from time to time. The SB series seems to have the rep as the mellowest of the NHT monitors over the years. They don't image quite like the Super Zeroes and Absolutes, but they would have the fullest balance and be very easy to listen to.

That's a good recommendation. The AZs are also quite a bit better than the Verve.

I use the AZ's in my 2CH rig with a U2 sub system, and do not find them to be bright at all.

As a point of comparison, I also have a pair of PSB Alpha B1's that I swap in from time to time, and I find those to be much brighter.

Brian

But don't the AZ and C2 have the tweeter from the SB?
I didn't find either one to be hard sounding.

SB1s have a warmer midrange/bass balance. The AZ does have a slight upper midrange resonance or peak that I can hear, but it's fairly easily dismissed. The SB1s have the most accessible, likable sound for the least amount of money. They sound rather like NHT Twos, but don't have the higher expectations of the Twos as they were half the price.

What's the best mount for mounting the classic 3's from the wall or the ceiling?

I'm using Omnimount 20.0 for my SB3s. Should work fine for the Classic 3s too.

http://bargainslane.com/shop/images/product/db/medium/20_0_ceiling-w.jpg

I remember when I first got my SB1s, I took 'em down to the basement and stuck 'em on top of the Super Ones and had a little challenge. The one comparison track I remember the best was from a Chesky Jazz Sampler, from clarinetist Eddie Daniels. Great recording, very pure tone on the clarinet, but very relentless. The SB1 won that one big, really allowing the tonal purity to shine through while taming the relentless. And the string bass, while not as big and full sounding, was just so nimble and fun to listen to. I combine the SB1 with a sub, but, unlike the Super Zero (unlistenable sans sub), kinda hate to do it in some ways.

In retrospect, basically the whole SuperAudio line was vastly under-appreciated. The SB1s, SB3s, even the ST4s weren't half bad speakers. IMO, the problem with them was their matching CC speakers and subs just didn't stand out as much. They were OK, but with the SB3, you knew you had something a little special at the time.

BTW, the Cambridge Audio separates Allen mentioned a long ways back on this thread are now out, and the pre-amp, with it's balanced outputs and HT bypass, is a killer choice for Xd: ;)

http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=286&Title=Azur+840E+pre+amplifier

http://www.audioadvisor.com/ViewLargerIMage.asp?title=Cambridge+%2D+840E+%2D+Pre%2DAmpli fier&image=images/CA840E_INT2-Large.jpg

In retrospect, basically the whole SuperAudio line was vastly under-appreciated. The SB1s, SB3s, even the ST4s weren't half bad speakers. IMO, the problem with them was their matching CC speakers and subs just didn't stand out as much. They were OK, but with the SB3, you knew you had something a little special at the time.

I will always be eternally thankful that I stumbled on the SB3s. God knows where my naivete might otherwise have lead me.

Anyone know if there are any more M-5s for sale? New closeouts, not used stuff, thanks!

Check on videogon. There are several there. I've got a single used one for sale. :-) Looking for a couple more black L5's myself.

Larry

I have some black L5s and M5s for sale. All new and never opened. PM me if interested.

How many M-5s? I already have 5 L-5s, I was hoping to do a 7.1 with M-5s up front. Do the M-5s sound significantly better than L-5s? Thanks!

How many M-5s? I already have 5 L-5s, I was hoping to do a 7.1 with M-5s up front. Do the M-5s sound significantly better than L-5s? Thanks!



I tested the M-5s and the L-5s as a center channel. Same drivers and crossover in both units.

The L-5s and M-5s sound the same from what I can hear. I presently use the M-5s up front with the L-5s for surrounds, but that is based on looks & mounting convenience rather than sound quality.

I finally got around to adding the U2s to my T5/M5/L5 setup and now I'm trying to get it all set up correctly. At the moment, things sound fairly boomy or muddy and I'd like to tighten up the sound a bit. I'm running them in a 800 square foot room with cushony couches and thick carpeting.

As for speaker placement, The left T5s is about 2 feet from a wall, with the woofer facing toward the wall, with the left W2 in the corner, woofer facing out into the room. The right T5 and U2 have much more space from the side wall. This makes it difficult for me to determine how to set the boundary on the X1, since each side has different woofer placement in relation to the surrounding walls.

Is it just going to be a matter of playing with boundary, phase and gain until I find the right level? I also have Avia and a sound level meter, but don't really understand how to set bass levels using their test tones. Any suggestions on how to tame the boomy sound while keeping the punch and deep rumble?

Anyone have a recomended in wall NHT speaker to use as sides with L5 fronts and IC4 rears + a sub?

Wondering how the IW3's might sound with L5's vs the IW4's with and without a higher end receiver with equalization.

The friend I'm helping feels the L5's will be too obtrusive in this small HT room.

Thanks

Larry

Aaron,

Can you explain how the bass end of your speaker system is wired? From your receiver to the X1, to the A1(s) and then to the subwoofers.

Jack, thanks for the reply. I have the everything wired as illustrated in "Method 1" of the Evo instruction manual, so the pre-amp outs from my Yamaha DSP-A1 go to the left and right in's on the X1, the sub out on the Yamaha to the sub in on the X1, and the left and right high-pass outputs on the X1 to the main-ins on the Yamaha. I also have it set up for stereo bass, with the switch on the X1 set to stereo and the left and right sub outs going to their respective A1 amplifiers.

The A1 amps are set up with one B5 and one W2 on each amp. Right now, the B5 subs face the side walls and the W2s face straight out into the room. Like I said before, I really am a novice when it comes to setting up subs, so any input on how to get these sounding better is helpful!

Aaron,

It sounds like you have everything wired correctly.

I assume that you have the L and R speakers in the Yamaha set to Large and the subwoofer output turned on?

I would start with the T5 settings in the Evolution owner's manual. The biggest difference is that you will need to lower the main volume control on the X1 about 6dB since you have two pairs of subwoofers. Next, I would play full range, 2ch music through the system and adjust the boundary control until the bass sounds best.

Some of your subwoofers are either in a corner or very close to one. This is going to excite all of the standing waves in the room. This will make the subwoofers boomy at whatever frequencies the room has standing waves at. Pulling them away from the corners, will generally make the bass less boomy.

If you really want to integrate the subwoofers as well as possible into your system, go to www.hometheatershack.com. Join the forums. Go to the REW forum. REW stands for Room Eq Wizard. It is software designed for measuring speaker systems in room. It uses any sound card running on a PC and an SPL meter or microphone. It was written by one of the members of hometheratershack.com. It is very easy to use and works amazingly well. It is also free. You will need to download it from the REW forum and follow the instructions which are located in a link in the forum.

Three (white) SB1s have appeared on ebay.

Thanks for the SB1 recommendation for nearfield listening for jazz. I found a post in Audioreview for the SB1 that said the SB1 required a different (fast) subwoofer. They said the bass and bass transients that the SB1 produce are so quick that a really good sub is required. They recommended the M&K MX-700.

What other subs do you recommend (less than $500 new/used)?

I remember that review and thought the guy was a tad bit zealous. I guess one wouldn't want some 15" home theater boomer, tho:)

Perhaps someone here will boo me off of the stage, but, depending on your setup, I wouldn't rule out the little 8" NHT SW-1P. When I got my SB1s a few years ago, I was running a SW-1P-Super Zero combo. Always liked it, but didn't quite have the desired sound pressure for my 13x 21 living room. Inserting the SB1 was interesting, because that seemed to make the 1P sound more powerful. I guess the mid to upper bass was more filled in.(?) The combo didn't seem quite as synergistic with the 1s instead of the SZs, but, in hindsight, I betcha I had the crossover -and perhaps the amp volume- slightly high trying to pressure the room a bit more. And it was no major deal. Just a slight compromise, in picky 'audiophile' terms.

Then I grabbed a Sub Two, a sealed box with two 10"ers. I got my SPLs up all right, but it wasn't a better match with the SB1s. It's good,well and fine, but I think the SB2 or Classic 2s would probably be a better match. I don't know that it's a 'quickness' issue; maybe more like a balance issue. And sometimes I just have the sub's volume a tad too high. (It's fun, after all.)

But, anyway, there's one thing I've never like as well with the Sub Two as with the SW-1P, and that's an upright bass, and I hear they use those in jazz sometimes:) I had a few solos I've used as tests over the years and I always thought the SW-1P did a really nice job. Same goes with quick electric bass solos as well, come to think of it. They floated out there in mid-air in way they don't quite with the big sub. (I'm sure the Evolution subs offer both the quickness and power, of course. And the SW1P certainly can't rock or do explosions with the big SubTwo.) Anyway, I still miss the SW-1P and often wish I had it in my basement. (And I didn't have a 'directionality' problem with it, ever. For fun I used to monkey with the Super Zeroes in silly nearfield set-ups, so that the sub- which was in the front corner- was behind me or to my left and right. But that bass always hung right out there in mid-air between the speakers.)

Someone has one on audiogon for $125, which seems like no risk to me. I certainly don't want to oversell this thing, but I guess I'd want to hear you say you're really fussy-finicky before I'd temper my positive comments. It isn't a sealed sub, but I would think ported 'looseness' could be dealt with. One of these Auralex SubDudes might do well in that regard.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SubDude/specs/#anchor

Anyway, that's my 2 cents- maybe worth half of that!

Thanks Brian for all the great feedback!

I wasn't just that one person who said the SB1 needed a quick sub. In the Goodsound review of the SB1 he said the NHT SW10 at times did not match the reproduction of transients of the SB1. He said it sometimes seemed a bit smeared. When he tried a Denon DSW-10 sub, it did a better job of mimicking the transient response of the SB1.

Jack,
Thanks for the reply. I'll have to download REW and give it a try, and spend some more time playing with sub placement to see if I can tame the boom a little more. I would think that pulling them out of the corner should help quite a bit. Also, I think that just sitting and taking the time to go through each phase and boundary setting will get me closer to where I want to be.

Yeah, I remember that review , too, jazz. Alimental and others have mentioned from time to time that the Super Series subs that replaced the older SW1P and 2P and SubOne subs were more theater oriented. (Actually, I think the SubOnei, which had changed from a 10"er in the SubOne to a 12"er, was a move toward 'slowness', based on an audition I had.) A dealer I know continued to push the older subs- maybe because they had bought a bunch of them. But they said that's why they jumped on them when they had the chance; they just felt that they were better for music.

The 8" subs made by the various Canadians- API (Energy, Mirage) and PSB- seem to be pretty nice little music subs as well. A friend had the 8" Mirage and it may have been a bit punchier than my NHT, but mine seemed smoother and fuller.

I don't know what your hookup facilities are on your preamp or receiver are, but the older "separate amp" NHTs gave the person some extra flexibility in hookup, with some high-pass filtering included if you wanted/had to do a speaker-level hookup. And so many of the current cheaper subs- which may be good sounding- don't offer a line-level hookup option beyond a sub output.

Im sorry if this is off topic. I'd like to sell some of my gears on avsforum. It asks me to buy 5 credits to post. Do I need to buy that every time I try to post a sale? Thanks.

My Yamaha a/v receiver system uses NHT Super Ones for front mains and rear surround, a Super Center, DCM for front presence and a Velodyne CHT-12 subwoofer. I find that it blends beautifully and for the price, is tough to beat.

Sadly, i formalized my intent not to re-sign with the company, listing the reasons why and was told i was 'naive' (again).

Gosh, the 3 SB1s I mentioned last page on ebay went for $81, $81 and $71. They were white, which perhaps didn't help. But so many lesser speakers go for more. This was about the price of a well-used pair of mid-90s PSB Alphas.

Gosh, the 3 SB1s I mentioned last page on ebay went for $81, $81 and $71. They were white, which perhaps didn't help. But so many lesser speakers go for more. This was about the price of a well-used pair of mid-90s PSB Alphas.

Never really did see the appeal of white. I guess maybe if you're wall mounting, but I'd rather have something exceptionally pretty on my walls than something that tried to blend in but doesn't.

Sadly, i formalized my intent not to re-sign with the company, listing the reasons why and was told i was 'naive' (again).

Damned shame, that. Completely understandable under the circumstances, of course.

It will be interesting to see if they can sell their current product well enough for a couple more years and then release new stuff, and if it is any good.

It will be interesting to see if they can sell their current product well enough for a couple more years and then release new stuff, and if it is any good.

That is what I'm afraid of. If the recent interest (or lack thereof I should say) in this thread here at AVS is a good microcosm representative of the interest in NHT by speaker consumers in general out there in the "real" world, then it just doesn't look too good right now, especially if they keep losing some of what few dealers they had if they do intend to try to keep sticking with the B&M model. Not to even mention, having to rely mainly on only the Classics for sales without many other options since the XDs and Evos are now gone.

On a related note, take a look at Chris Byrne's latest blog:

Tuesday, May 27, 2008
got them consolidation, fragmentation, liquidation blues

One of my favorite blogs is the Audiophiliac. Steve Guttenberg is the culprit and while I am not a high-end guy in practice, I agree with a lot that Steve has to say.


In late April, D&M Holdings Inc., announced that their brands Denon, Marantz, Snell Acoustics, Boston Acoustics, Escient and McIntosh were up for sale. Steve voiced concern that these brands, most of whom have a long history and quality reputations, may change for the worse depending on the intent of potential new owners. I have to agree with him.


There have been a significant number of brand roll-ups in our industry by large corporations and/or investment groups over the last 10 years. Historically, many of these consolidations have not been successful. They seem to take place as market segments approach maturity, as they appear to be lucrative investments. Even with those that have gone reasonably well, the new parents have rarely been able to maintain the focus and innovation of the companies they have acquired.


Brands like NHT and McIntosh have been fortunate. We've managed to survive, largely because the original group that held onto the founding principles remained intact. But we still changed, and if we're honest we would tell you that it has not been for the better.


In most cases however, the acquired brands become shells. Frustrated employees move on. Sooner or later, the consolidations are broken up and sold off in pieces. Many smaller (and an increasingly number of larger) brands do not survive the fragmentation process and simply disappear.


As sad as this repetitive cycle seems to those of us that are familiar with casualties, I suspect this process may be part of a broader market mechanism that allows Consumer Electronics to reset. Shed some of the old for the new. Usually this happens in small pieces but every once in a while, it seems the whole industry turns over.


In my opinion, we are in the middle of another great "brand flip" in audio. It happened during the 60's when most of the important companies were either American or European. Our friends in Japan and the rest of Asia took the business by storm and broadened the market substantially. Now yet again, new brands are proliferating at a remarkable rate, this time from the global high tech sectors.


"Brand Flips" are more than just new names doing the same thing better or cheaper. They are an indication that consumer desire has shifted on a large scale. Consumers are looking at new companies for new solutions. And the new companies are enjoying the growth. This could explain why D&M is letting go and I would expect that there will be many others like them in the not too distant future. Its not anyones fault, its not mis-management, nor greed. The world is moving on... you know, evolve or die.


There are always positives and negatives. There are always survivors who can adapt and change successfully with the times. The positive aspect of all the new brands and applications is the reaffirmation of energy and health that our industry needs. Passion, innovation and dedication don't disappear, they transfer to the next generation of companies.


And while losing brands that seem like old friends is difficult, its important to maintain perspective about audio gear makers. The real product of our industry is the art form (music, film, spoken word), the hardware is just the current delivery service.

Posted by Chris Byrne at 4:52 PM

From:

http://nowhearthisblog.blogspot.com/2008/05/got-them-consolidation-fragmentation.html

Here is a link to a PDF of perhaps what will be the last review of the NHT Classic Fours. It was published just recently but must have been written some time ago as it references Jack Hidley as "chief engineer".

http://nhthifi.com/current/press/reviews/new/Sensible_Sound_Classic_Four_5-08.pdf

Well, these aren't new products any more, so I wouldn't expect to see too many reviews from here on. The reviews seemed to have been one of the main drivers of sales lately, along with the old customer base.

On Chris' blog post - Maybe it's only the posts I've seen, but IMO Steve Guttenberg has posted some really stupid things.

This one is just obvious, rather than stupid. Except that some of those D&M brands have already been hollowed out, so don't blame the next owners.

I don't know why anyone would think that a holding or investment company buying an audio company is a good idea. Nothing new there.

Anyway, it would be interesting if Chris would say something about NHT.Sadly, i formalized my intent not to re-sign with the company, listing the reasons why and was told i was 'naive' (again).I hope you told them that you can't be bitter, cynical and naive at the same time. :P

I do wonder how they think they are going to sell these things. I hope they have some new ideas. The dealer network was thin before this last go-round.

I hope you told them that you can't be bitter, cynical and naive at the same time. :P

:D

Anyway, it would be interesting if Chris would say something about NHT.

That was sort of what I was expecting. I found the post that talked about discontinuing Xd interesting. If they were smart they'd be using this blog to reassure their current customers, sort of like the "Think Different" ads right after Jobs returned to Apple. Except I don't place the same level of faith in Byrne as I do in Jobs.

Eh, almost wrote 20 paragraphs on the subject, but you get it. Bill Bush got it. The rest of NHT never got it. Bill is the Andre the Giant of speakers. He can carry any ten people on his back and drag them kicking and screaming towards success. He didn't even have to understand marketing because he instinctively knew what people wanted. Nobody else at NHT could do what he could do. The same guys you're hoping will get it are the ones that drove him out of the company and it's been drifting ever since. Bill was the only chief engineer they had that had a logical, centered, business aspect to his personality that could get things done and to market despite all the craziness. Ken is close to certifiably crazy and he knows it, he literally can't handle a 9-5 job and Chris's far too relaxed personality seemed to keep him together. Jack, is, well, Jack.

Since all the good innovation came from the engineers, i just don't see how they can be NHT without at least one brilliant, ahead of the curve engineer. Chris and the guys think NHT is NHT because of them. Not because of Ken, Bill and Jack. I would say NHT was NHT despite Chris and the guys. I'm not quite sure if Chris even knows what NHT is or is supposed to be exactly, much the same as VW doesn't understand its perception in the American marketplace and continually demonstrates it. Sometimes, once you create something, it becomes its own thing with its own personality. If you don't understand it, well, you are kinda doomed to bumbling along.

I'm not quite sure if Chris even knows what NHT is or is supposed to be exactly, much the same as VW doesn't understand its perception in the American marketplace and continually demonstrates it.

Reading his blog, you don't really get the sense that he does know what NHT is/is supposed to be.

RANT:
I have read all the reviews, I have read every response on this site.

I want to listen to the classic 4's, 3's, or any NHT for that matter, but guess what?

No one in my area carries them in stock! They are ALL custom install people only. One does not even have a showroom and suggest I go to some business and take a listen to the in ceiling stuff they installed there. Not even close to what I'm looking for.

A call to NHT gets me a very friendly person who can only say that they are sorry but they are having a hard time keeping vendors in my area. He suggest internet ordering them from any of the approved sellers. So what happens if I don't like them? Most likely a 10-15% restock fee and shipping costs back to the retailer. So now I would be out $150 or more.

Needless to say I wont be an NHT owner with all this going against me. You would think that in the Tacoma/Seattle area you could find a dealer not just custom install people!

Hello gentlemen, I am the person who bought the above referenced white SB1s on ebay. Honestly I bought them on recommendations from people on this site and at that price point I think I got a great deal. I bought 2 pair for rear surrounds in my revamped 7.1 setup. I will be pushing them with a onkyo 805 that I just got delivered today. The question I have is that they didn't have the ceiling or wall mounts so I checked on nht's site and it recommends the 10 series from omnimount. I found the 10 series ceiling mounts in matching white for 15.51 on amazon. Are these the correct mounts? Thanks in advance.

I believe that is correct.

So, this thread will eventually be replaced by the "Best deals in used NHTs" thread, in which people tell about the stupid low price they paid for their NHT "classics" (generic term). $250 for a pair of almost mint ST4s, etc. "Anybody tried two pairs of stacked SB3s?"

Good shopping, Ron. You should get a lot of "Wow, what are those?", "I've never heard of them" comments. I noticed that, at the same time you got your SB1, a pair of nothing special (condition wise) SuperZeroes went for $127. Not that there's anything wrong with $127; it's just that you got newer speakers that will play lower and louder and cleaner and smoother for peanuts. About as 'tight' a speaker you'll find in the budget audio area. And yeah, you have the right wallmounts. (Matt, I think the whites are really pretty; you just have to be in the right decor situation.)

And it would still be fun to have pair of SZs. I never mentioned them to jazzbot for his nearfield situation, mostly because I didn't get that he would be using a sub. It's harder to imagine a more ideal thing for nearfield fun than the SZs if you have some well-integrated bass extension available and aren't going to play stupid loud. They still have to be one of the best disappearing acts in audio history.

Hello gentlemen, I am the person who bought the above referenced white SB1s on ebay. Honestly I bought them on recommendations from people on this site and at that price point I think I got a great deal. I bought 2 pair for rear surrounds in my revamped 7.1 setup. I will be pushing them with a onkyo 805 that I just got delivered today. The question I have is that they didn't have the ceiling or wall mounts so I checked on nht's site and it recommends the 10 series from omnimount. I found the 10 series ceiling mounts in matching white for 15.51 on amazon. Are these the correct mounts? Thanks in advance.

Yes, I used the Omnimount 10.0 when I had SB1s and they worked well.

Strangely they never worked well with my AZs; I just got some 20.0s to replace them since I changed apartments and have to reinstall mounts anyway.

The AZ bracket switch was one of the many ridiculous times where NHT did not bother to mention to their dealers that they'd changed something. As a result, i have dozens of 10.0 brackets laying around and had to stop in the middle of installs for weeks to get 20.0 brackets. I sent an e-mail to let them know that they had put the 'wrong size' thread in the back and I was even asked what serial numbers so they could figure it out. Finally months and months later I accidentally found out, here as I recall, that that was a purposeful change. But they never told anyone, apparently. So we just were sitting around scratching our heads for quite awhile over it. NuVision did this to us a few months ago, switching from VESA 200 to the far more rare VESA 400. Nothing like showing up on installs with the wrong bracket and having to order new ones that cost twice as much.

BTW, I do have some deals on the last of my NHT inventory. Mostly inwalls/inceilings, but a few SD Tens, for instance and some T5/M5s. Trying to clean everything out!

Alitall...PM me with a killer ic4 deal...?

Latest bloggism (http://nowhearthisblog.blogspot.com/):

Wednesday, June 11, 2008
Music in the air

Are you noticing all the music related coverage in the news lately? Its everywhere. Reports of 2 channel gear sales being up, a small, but solid resurgence of vinyl, new music sites and availability for downloads. Wow!


One of the predictions from last winter's CES was that once DRM went away, there would be new markets opening for music through the internet. Markets that have appeal to lots of different tastes and lots of different grades of resolution. It is starting already.


If you want to hear and own very high rez music, go to hdtracks.com. HD Tracks is a new venture from Chesky Records that allows members to purchase and download music from their catalog, uncompressed, lossless and DRM free. You also get album art and notes accompanying any download. HD Tracks is in its early stages and will be expanding its offerings and formats in the future. You can hear what a high quality download sounds like right now for free. HD Tracks is offering an album, called the Ultimate Download Experience. This offer ends on June 30, so check it out soon.


Its not the intent of my blog to promote specific companies. However these exciting times for music enthusiasts and we need keep each other informed. Within a day or two, our website will feature a music links tab on our home page. As we hear about new sites, new artists and new music, we'll post them as a resource. Feel free to let us know about your discoveries and we'll post those too.

Useless post, I know.

Still loving the M5/L5 setup and sad to see NHT floundering about.

That's just embarassing. It's almost a copy of what that idiot Guttenberg posted in his own column (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-9962967-47.html).

That's just embarassing. It's almost a copy of what that idiot Guttenberg posted in his own column (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-9962967-47.html).

I take great offense in your referring to Steve Guttenberg in your tasteless manner.

I have professionally known Steve for nearly 30 years and have found him to be a gentleman and a total audio professional.

You may disagree with what he has written in his column, but to call him an "idiot" merely reflects on you, not Steve.

You owe him an apology!

You would think that in the Tacoma/Seattle area you could find a dealer not just custom install people!

Isn't One Call in the Seattle area? They have a showroom if I'm not mistaken.

Steve is a pretty cool guy, actually. If you talk about audio long enough, it's hard to sound really excited without sounding a bit idiotic now and then. I'm sure I do at times.

Isn't One Call in the Seattle area? They have a showroom if I'm not mistaken.I think it's in Spokane.

BTW, I do have some deals on the last of my NHT inventory. Mostly inwalls/inceilings, but a few SD Tens, for instance and some T5/M5s. Trying to clean everything out!

What sort of deal on the T5/M5?

I take great offense in your referring to Steve Guttenberg in your tasteless manner.

I have professionally known Steve for nearly 30 years and have found him to be a gentleman and a total audio professional.

You may disagree with what he has written in his column, but to call him an "idiot" merely reflects on you, not Steve.

You owe him an apology!On the slim chance you're serious - I'd be happy to apologize, when he apologizes for all the misinformation he circulates and all the music fans and industry people he has snidely and thoughtlessly trashed. It will be a while before it's my turn, though - to paraphrase Dick Cheney he's offending people faster than he could possibly apologize to them.

BTW, I guess he doesn't think NHT speakers are something a true audiophile could love, since Amazon had been selling them for a while, but it wasn't until they added Martin Logans that he said Amazon "now sells speakers a true audiophile could love." link (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-9956715-47.html)

Ok I truly enjoy all my nht speakers as they are set apart from the pack in many ways, but Chris is just plain lost or delusional; there is no way under his guidance the company will produce anything worthy of it's legacy. I'm sorry but unless something else big changes....

sc1000,

Why do you say that about Chris? The company has been under his guidance for most of its life, and done some pretty great products in that time.

Engineering made absolutely fantastic products, but the company never really grew despite that, even contracted Lots of other companies made a lot of crap products and quadrupled in size over the same time period anyway. Why do you suppose that is exactly?

PS - don't get me wrong, I really like Chris as a person, but c'mon. I don't necessarily agree with his comments about Chris's blogs, but then again, it's hardly the kind of Jack Welch-ian, take the bull by the horns leadership and spokesmanship that NHT needs right now.

... in NHT by speaker consumers in general out there in the "real" world, then it just doesn't look too good right now, especially if they keep losing some of what few dealers...

Being a very satisfied NHT owner (VT-3, VC-3, VR-3) I can say nothing but good things about the company. My units required warranty service and they handled it with aplomb in a timely fashon through my local dealer.

NHT's no frills attitude has allowed them to compete with the rest of the high end market because they stayed away from luxury items such as layered lacquer paint jobs, ceramic drivers and Vishay resistors (just to name a few). Don't get me wrong I appreciate those features but they are not necessary for great sound. (Would like to see composite cabinets on my series)

I have been in audio for nearly 40 years seen companies come and go, good designs, poor designs, poor customer support and exemplary service. From the first time I heard the Super Zeros I said wow what a value! Then I heard the 3.3s holy cow.

As Chris noted in his blog(s). Part of the problem is market attitudes. I see it as poor marketing. The time has come for NHT to get into the big box stores. They need more exposure. I don't like seeing Krell or Audioquest at Tweeter but that is distribution, getting the equipment into the marketplace (exposure) then the hands of the people. After that comes regional word of mouth.

I live near Chicago. To the best of my knowledge there has been only one NHT dealer in a 200 mile radius for ever. That is no way to sell a product. We need bricks and mortar not "Custom Installers".

Sincerely,
Martin

Depends. Usually, going into a big box store is the beginning of the end of whatever makes a speaker company's products good. I'd rather see a crippled NHT than Polk with an NHT label. Maybe Chris can pull this off, but every 'resurrection' that's occurred thus far has always been temporary and always relied on an influx of cash from the new owner. I hate to be pessimistic, but I was afraid of 'same old, same old' and that's exactly what has happened. I wouldn't pin it entirely on Chris though. He certainly isn't the main reason I quit. Chris is a great guy, but it's just that it would be like putting Ghandi in charge of Iwo Jima

As Chris noted in his blog(s). Part of the problem is market attitudes. I see it as poor marketing. The time has come for NHT to get into the big box stores. They need more exposure. I don't like seeing Krell or Audioquest at Tweeter but that is distribution, getting the equipment into the marketplace (exposure) then the hands of the people. After that comes regional word of mouth.

I live near Chicago. To the best of my knowledge there has been only one NHT dealer in a 200 mile radius for ever. That is no way to sell a product. We need bricks and mortar not "Custom Installers".

Sincerely,
Martin

I fully agree 110% Martin. IMO, if NHT is going to stick with the B&M model, then it's time to try to go big once and for all, or, to go home and be ID. More (a lot more) showroom dealers are needed. It's not just small markets, but even some of the biggest, major cities in this country simply have no NHT dealer. And "custom installers" IMO are the worst possible situation of all in that a lot of times, one can't demo the product in advance, but yet is still charged "retail" price. At least with ID, you get a big discount for not having the option to "demo" in advance. :p

I don't think I'd want to see NHT in Circuit City or regular Best Buy (Magnolia in select BB's would be OK though), but Tweeter would be OK. A few years ago, Crutchfield carried NHT, and even they exposed NHT to more markets. It'd be nice if they sold NHT again.

I wouldn't ever want to see NHT "sell out" by devoting all it's available capital to marketing and virtually none to actual R&D thus increasing sales volume, but of inferior product a`la Bose, but IMO, more and better marketing of NHT could be done fairly easily.

BTW, FWIW, the VT-3's are my personal favorite among all of NHT's big towers between the VT-3s, the 3.3s, and the T6s. ;)

One Call is in Spokane which is 304.25 miles away from Tacoma. The gas prices do not make this a reasonable way to listen to NHT. I would be better off purchasing on line and paying a restocking fee and shipping back if I did not like them. At least then I could listen to them in my room! The problem is: I don't have disposable money. It's a shame that a company that has the reputation of such high quality products priced at a normal working mans range is not more readily available. I am currently waiting on some Aperion 6T's to ship. I don't know how these would compare to NHT's but I do know they sure make it easy for you to listen to in your home with the free return shipping if you do not like them. Maybe NHT should become an ID brand. At least that is what they are to me at this point.

...Crutchfield carried NHT, and even they exposed NHT to more markets. It'd be nice if they sold NHT again.

I was just going to say "how about Audio Advisor?" A quick look and guess what?:eek: They currently carry NHT products.:)

Sincerely,
Martin

A few years ago, Crutchfield carried NHT, and even they exposed NHT to more markets. It'd be nice if they sold NHT again.

My first "real" stereo purchase, 5 years ago, was a pair of SB3s on "scratch & dent" special from Crutchfield for $450.

I had set out that day with the intention of buying Polks from Fry's, but was very disappointed in their sound. Thankfully the friend I was shopping with knew of NHT, so we tracked down a dealer. They played the SB3s for me; I thought I was listening to SB2s and when I found out it was the SB3 I was very disappointed, as I had really only budged $300 for speakers.

Thankfully I found the ones on Crutchfield. Who knows how things might have gone otherwise. Those SB3s were a great introduction to the world of hi-fi, and served me well for 3 years until I traded them in on Classic 3s.

One Call is in Spokane which is 304.25 miles away from Tacoma.

I rest my case. If the Seattle/Tacoma area is big enough to have NFL, NBA (for now anyway), and MLB teams, then they should have at least one NHT dealer. :(:mad:

I was just going to say "how about Audio Advisor?" A quick look and guess what?:eek: They currently carry NHT products.:)

Sincerely,
Martin

Oh yeah, and they very quickly sold out of their SD Classic stock at the close out prices, like SD Fours for $999 for example, which IMO strongly supports my contention that if NHT went ID and competed on price, they could very easily and quickly surpass the point that they are at now after 20 years of the B&M model. ;)

I've dealt with AA before, and they really are top notch.

All this talk of NHT in virtual past tense makes me even more up-in-the-air about what to do with my SuperOnes. They just sit in their boxes, coming out for a rare listen every few months. The wife wants 'em gone, of course. But darn it, they're old friends.

I have a soon to be 19 year old for whom I picked up a nice open box Marantz 80 wpc stereo receiver. The combo of the Marantz and SOs sounded great to me in his room (I listened for a week before he came home from freshman year.) Don't know that they would suit him though, and the thought of accident or lack of appreciation for them bothers me for some reason. He may just need one of those Insignia 6.5" inch two-ways from BB (which are spec'd to have a little lower bass, anyway). It isn't that he's a big barbarian- tho there is a fair amount of hippin' and hoppin' on that ipod- but with the ipod as the source and who knows what physical setup in his apt, maybe SOs just aren't a good option. I guess I'll just have to feel him out on the subject.

RANT:
I have read all the reviews, I have read every response on this site.

I want to listen to the classic 4's, 3's, or any NHT for that matter, but guess what?

No one in my area carries them in stock! They are ALL custom install people only. One does not even have a showroom and suggest I go to some business and take a listen to the in ceiling stuff they installed there. Not even close to what I'm looking for.

A call to NHT gets me a very friendly person who can only say that they are sorry but they are having a hard time keeping vendors in my area. He suggest internet ordering them from any of the approved sellers. So what happens if I don't like them? Most likely a 10-15% restock fee and shipping costs back to the retailer. So now I would be out $150 or more.

Needless to say I wont be an NHT owner with all this going against me. You would think that in the Tacoma/Seattle area you could find a dealer not just custom install people!

Last time I bought from Listen Up, they told me they will take it back without re-stocking fee, and they will also pay for the return shipping. Give them a call, see what they say.

By the way, I just visited NHT website. "Shop Online" page was updated, now they have new vendor "Cool Guy, Canada". And, they also have "un-authorized dealer" list -- I email them a while back questioning an ebay seller...
It looks like NHT is getting their acts together, hopefully getting better.

Hi,

I'm going back and forth on whether I should buy (or not) a couple of W2 sub-woofers to compliment my recent purchase of a T5 system. The W2s would be replacing a Paradigm PW2100 sub that is only used for LFE. So I guess my question is: besides the W2's creating a matched system and satisfying what seems to be a uncontrollable need to spend money - what would be the benefits of the W2s over my Paradigm?

^^^ They would sum correctly with your B5s, and since you would then have a total of 4 drivers in the system/room, you could get the 20 Hz mod on the X1.

I wouldn't recommend even using the Paradigm sub with the B5s - use one or the other, but not both at the same time.

Last time I bought from Listen Up, they told me they will take it back without re-stocking fee, and they will also pay for the return shipping. Give them a call, see what they say.

Try Main & Matrix TV & Stereo in Vancouver, BC - they are listed on NHT's website. M & M have NHT product set up and ready to listen to. Vancouver is closer to Seattle than Spokane - a 2 hour drive vs almost 4 to Spokane. Ask for Elliot.:D

By the way, I just visited NHT website. "Shop Online" page was updated, now they have new vendor "Cool Guy, Canada". And, they also have "un-authorized dealer" list -- I email them a while back questioning an ebay seller...
It looks like NHT is getting their acts together, hopefully getting better.

From a recent dealer newsletter:

"In the last 3 weeks we’ve busted 2, make that 3, no 4 (just caught one on Friday May 30 and one more today – June 2…really) direct dealers and 2 Distributor accounts for either unauthorized Internet selling or transshipping products (or both!). We also managed to get three rogue Internet retailers to cease sales of NHT products through the real promise of legal action."

If only they could get their 'authorized internet retailers' to keep from feeding off their local retailers but that's pretty hard when the internet guys get deals the retailers don't get. I've lots at LEAST $50k, but more like $100k in sales in the last 6-12 months to ListenUp, AudioAdvisor, One Call, etc. The problem isn't so much the rogue internet dealers, it's the authorized internet dealers. And the lack of a level playing field. Why should I be the unpaid sales and demonstration staff for ListenUp, et al? Answer - not any more. Not ever again.

I'm not wanting to stir anything up, but I have a ListenUp in my city and I can't say that I've ever lost a single sale to them on speakers. We're not a retail store though: we're an apointment only showroom and before a customer steps in the door I've "qualified" them as my customer. If I had someone who was just looking for speakers, and wasn't interested in the additional services I offer (acoustic treatments, system design, etc), then it's pretty likely they wouldn;t get an appointment.

I'm not wanting to stir anything up, but I have a ListenUp in my city and I can't say that I've ever lost a single sale to them on speakers. We're not a retail store though: we're an apointment only showroom and before a customer steps in the door I've "qualified" them as my customer. If I had someone who was just looking for speakers, and wasn't interested in the additional services I offer (acoustic treatments, system design, etc), then it's pretty likely they wouldn;t get an appointment.I'm not wanting to stir anything up either, but your post takes the pointless post of the day award.

We are now almost 3 years into this thread and I just wanted to reiterate the fact that the main reason NHT is in this position is that the Classic line was delayed and delayed for months after their announcement. Some models were available a few months later but the Three and the Four were really late to the party and NHT had nothing to sell.
I imagine there wasn't much cash flow at that time and the money probably ran out pretty quickly. We had many forum partipants who simply moved on to other speakers and I also doubt that once the pipeline filled up sales weren't what they had been with the previous lines.

Well, that didn't help, but the prime reason is that the company that bought NHT really wanted to make a quick profit by turning around the company. When 'rags to riches' didn't look likely, they just abandoned them. While Vinci was the right company, Vinci Labs was owned by the wrong people and they just euthanized Vinci. Esa, Vinci's head engineer is a brilliant guy. He had big plans for engineering lots of cool new stuff, but no one cared. Once they decided to pull the plug, it didn't matter what happened or what other options there were. As far as I understand, the orders were 'sell or liquidate' by end of the year.

Can we just say NHT is dead?

Can we just say NHT is dead?

Yes, but the thread must live.:)

Yes, but the thread must live.:)

Yes, it is amazing that they're still selling them at some very high prices compared to the competition.

Yes, it is amazing that they're still selling them at some very high prices compared to the competition.

Compared to what? B&W? I can't agree with that. I don't think there is anything that is equal to or better than most NHT products for the same or less price, with the exception of a few of the inwall/inceilings and the subs. Not sure what 'competition' you're implying. But, of course, the people that designed them aren't really there any more. Or something like that.

As for NHT being dead, I don't think that's the case, more like adrift with no real money and no real direction except to keep building more of what they have until people get tired of it. They've survived before, though, ironically, when Vinci Labs bought them, they had a button they handed out with a cat and all but the last life crossed off. I thought it was tasteless and demonstrated poor marketing judgment as usual, but maybe they just jinxed themselves in the end.

I have the L-5s, purchased from Listenup for $179 each. At the clearance price they are a real bargain. At full MSRP, however, they wouldn't win a bang-for-the-buck award, too much competition. They would still sound good, though!

FPB, most of the L5's metal cabineted competition retail for $1500-$2500/pr and almost all of those are simply ported 2-way MTM speakers. The L5 is a real 3-way, acoustic suspension design for only $1000/pr. What competition? That's another reason I jumped ship. I told them not to blow out the L5s, that we need them in the stable until there is a Classic based replacement and that installers would be needing them for upcoming jobs. But not only did they not listen, they didn't tell their retailer/installers who spec these things in as much as a year in advance, blew them out online and now I have 3 jobs that I had to divert from L5s to Eras or PSBs. And several other customers who just bought on line because I didn't have them. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

IOW, NHT doesn't have problems because of over priced product, not at all. It's everything else they do. The L5s were a bargain at $1000/pr.

One of the challenges must have been that their various product lines really require different marketing channels and approaches. xD and electronics and Evo needed a dealer network, Classic line is almost priced too low to get real attention from dealers, then you have Verve (?), and the pro-oriented stuff.

That would be hard to do under any circumstances, but to have such a spread of product lines for a company that size is tough - too much to juggle, hard to get enough resources focused on doing a good job on any of them. It would take a level of clarity about what products fit which channels, and how to make it work, that didn't seem to be there.

Apparently one new marketing tool they are trying is "interviews" of customers:

http://nhthifi.com/current/nht-whatsnew.html

... but this thread has prolly done more for their marketing than anything else ever has.

I have the L-5s, purchased from Listenup for $179 each. At the clearance price they are a real bargain. At full MSRP, however, they wouldn't win a bang-for-the-buck award, too much competition. They would still sound good, though!

Name me just one true on wall only speaker that can top them at anything even close to their full retail price.

IOW, NHT doesn't have problems because of over priced product, not at all. It's everything else they do. The L5s were a bargain at $1000/pr.

If they were a bargain at $1000/pr then they're a downright STEAL at $179 each! I own them, I like them, but at $1K a pair I would have looked elsewhere.

We are now almost 3 years into this thread and I just wanted to reiterate the fact that the main reason NHT is in this position is that the Classic line was delayed and delayed for months after their announcement. Some models were available a few months later but the Three and the Four were really late to the party and NHT had nothing to sell.

On the contrary, NHT still at that time had the full Evo and consumer Xd lines, not even counting the SuperAudio closeouts that were going on at the time.

I guess the issue seems to be their "on-wall" design. I didn't really need that feature, but at the blowout price I figured "what the heck, I'll try them". For $1K I would have gone with a pair of floorstanders instead, but that's just me.

Compared to what? B&W? I can't agree with that. I don't think there is anything that is equal to or better than most NHT products for the same or less price, with the exception of a few of the inwall/inceilings and the subs.

No, I actually thought B&W is the most overpriced overrated brand in the market, much like Mercedes. I was referring to the Classics which is still very costly. I can list a bunch of models from other brands but it's all subjective.

Yes, but that's like being amazed that an Audi is more expensive than a Toyota or VW. Higher quality is higher quality.

IOW, it's easy to say something is overpriced if you can't afford it.

Yes, but that's like being amazed that an Audi is more expensive than a Toyota or VW. Higher quality is higher quality.

IOW, it's easy to say something is overpriced if you can't afford it.

Sorry buddy... you're talking to someone who's been in the auto business for 35 years. I currently drive the new A6 (a Q7 soon) and I'd have to say Toyota's interior (not even talking about Lexus) lasts much longer. I've also took apart the interior and reassembled it personally so I know damn well how crappy their engineering is compared to Toyota. The only reason why I'm driving one is because of its handling and style. Marketing and packaging has more to do with quality than actual logical reasoning.

It's overpriced because after losing about $20K from constantly upgrading audio stuff every week (back when I was in college) I pretty much get the basic idea of what's overpriced or not in this hobby, like let's say a Krell amp... Someone can slap a $2K price tag on a speaker that costs $200 to make and discount it by 50%, making it look like a bargain, and you can bet audiophiles will praise it for being the best deal of the century. In this hobby more so than any other, quality is extremely subjective. If you're willing to pay $1K for a pair of Classics, more power to you then and my opinion shouldn't affect you. But a car's peeling and rattling interior is hard prove that it's an inferior design compared to another, regardless of the price. Nevertheless I understand why people would want to justify and adamantly defend their expensive acquisition.

PS: Other hobbies like the fountain pen business is even more ridiculous as the more you spend the less quality you get.

Yes, but still not getting how you got to the NHT as overpriced belief. Pretty sure my overpriced L5s and U1 would body slam your high value Onkyo speakers :D

Yes, but still not getting how you got to the NHT as overpriced belief. Pretty sure my overpriced L5s and U1 would body slam your high value Onkyo speakers :D

Oh no!!! How dare you make fun of my beloved Onkyos! Die die!! :D

Well, I guess this is stating the obvious: You just have to be a little geeky or particluar in some areas to believe that the NHTs are a good deal. There are obviously a bunch of speakers that 'most', or at least many, people would prefer to the Classic Threes or the M5s at their prices. But the NHTs 'do' certain things better than the others that justifies a premium over those that may do other things that someone else -cretins, obviously- prizes more.

As an NHT fanboy, I'm just a tad bummed that it just doesn't seem that the AZ and Two are the screaming sound/dollar killers that the SZs and SuperOnes were in their day, or that the SB1 and SB2 were in theirs (albeit without the same public acclaim). I always admired the Paradigm Atom, but, even at $100 less, wouldn't have been tempted to choose them over the SB1s. It was a quality-quantity thing. The new Atom is still $100 less, but it seems like it has had such an upgrade that, unless one had a specific need for acoustic suspension or the purdy design, the Atoms seem to have evened it up on the quality front. Same with the Alphas. (John may disagree re: the latest Alpha, which would be pleasing, actually.) I guess I just wish the AZ and Twos could cost $350 and $450.

^^^ It's ok. There are about the same amount of new interesting brands as dying ones. Let's experiment with new stuff...

The AZs and Twos are really good *audiophile* speakers, especially the AZ and are clearly better than the Paradigms and PSBs in terms of refinement and lack of color and imaging. And clearly better than the SB1, SB2 and SB3. BUT, the SB1 (and the SB3) had the ability to sound like a much bigger speaker than it was and was instantly lovable. The AZ is something that only an audiophile can really appreciate at first take. The Two is a great speaker and would be well received and reviewed if the Three weren't only $200 more. They should have left the AZ at $400 and the Two at $600 which is a bit too high for the normal population anyway, let the SB1 stay around and raise the Three to $1000/pr. But NHT seems to be proud of never doing what it should do to be successful. They're too busy being 'rebels'.

I did this for them and it was completely ignored -

Recommendations for growth strategies include, but are not limited to:

1. Development of approximately 10 new models based on existing designs
2. Revision of approximately 10 older, but extremely successful models
3. Reintroduction of approximately 6 discontinued high value models at lower prices for chain stores and less affluent markets
4. Production of limited "Special Edition" models to increase and maintain press attention
5. Replace current image advertising with feature/benefit advertising
6. Replace internet only vendors with NHT online store
7. Create NHT branded home theater stores/distribution outlets in select test markets to replace the loss of retail stores and bolster custom install sales
8. Expand and refine Xd DSP based speaker systems.
9. Create higher end "prestige" oriented speaker systems to attract serious audiophiles
10. Create NHT customer forum to attract and maintain current customer base
11. Create closed NHT dealer forum to help dealers share strategies and pass critical market strategies in both directions.
12. Aggressively pursue large national commercial retail/restaurant accounts
13. Aggressively pursue OEM car audio accounts in order to raise NHT's profile
14. Conduct important market research with existing and past NHT dealers
15. Aggressively maintain and utilize consumer database from registered products
16. Offer promotional trade in programs for existing and prospective owners
17. Develop unique "internet only" models that expand NHT's appeal outside the typical NHT consumer
18. Split NHT lines into "high value" and "high-end" orientations with unique and mutually exclusive dealer agreements.
19. Remove recent price increase on most products and improve margins as new models are introduced.
20. Pursue new design innovations such as variable dispersion and advanced room correction

Really, partially, a summation of what I'd been telling them for years. That is why I am 'naive'. I actually thought most of those ideas would actually work and would have had the balls to aggressively work on all of them.

Nevertheless I understand why people would want to justify and adamantly defend their expensive acquisition.

Just as I understand someone bashing a product that they obviously didn't buy as some kind of personal reassurance just to try to make themselves feel better about their purchase. ;)

^^^ It's ok. There are about the same amount of new interesting brands as dying ones. Let's experiment with new stuff...

Then by all means, do feel free to exit this thread at any time and go into any of the various other threads that exist here which in your view do meet the criteria you wish to discuss. :D

...top 20 list etc., etc.

Really, partially, a summation of what I'd been telling them for years. That is why I am 'naive'. I actually thought most of those ideas would actually work and would have had the balls to aggressively work on all of them.

I must say - I do like the lion's share of your suggested turnaround strategies. Maybe you could round up a posse of investors, engineers and marketing gurus from here on the forum (and elsewhere) then just buy NHT out!

Just as I understand someone bashing a product that they obviously didn't buy as some kind of personal reassurance just to try to make themselves feel better about their purchase. ;)

Agreed, unless that person owned the product before :)

Then by all means, do feel free to exit this thread at any time and go into any of the various other threads that exist here which in your view do meet the criteria you wish to discuss. :D

Oh I would if there are ones that meet my criteria and I'm certainly not constrained to this thread. But the thread must live, for whatever reason, so I'll continue to contribute. :cool:

...top 20 list etc., etc.

Really, partially, a summation of what I'd been telling them for years. That is why I am 'naive'. I actually thought most of those ideas would actually work and would have had the balls to aggressively work on all of them.

I must say - I do like the lion's share of your suggested turnaround strategies. Maybe you could round up a posse of investors, engineers and marketing gurus from here on the forum (and elsewhere) then just buy NHT out!

Believe me, I tried but the guys that owned NHT were impossible to deal with. If they'd have cooperated, I could have gotten the company sold for several $million as I had the connections. As it was, they took $300K, I believe, and just because they refused to offer any details, a prospectus, anything. Not even a 'going price'. I finally gave up. If they'd called me back with a reasonable price, I probably could have gotten it. With a business sale, if you're not actively shopping the company, it will get passed over because everyone else is pimping their company. The CEO just had his head up his @$$

Really, partially, a summation of what I'd been telling them for years. That is why I am 'naive'. I actually thought most of those ideas would actually work and would have had the balls to aggressively work on all of them.

John, there's no point complaining now especially since it is too late to do anything. Let's just say they took a turn that didn't work out. I'd rather see you put your visions and energy into helping another audio company create a product that you can be proud of.

Thanks, I'm actually working with a few other companies to develop some of this stuff. I've lived with NHT for 15 years and their ability to be intransigent in the face of common sense never ceases to amaze me. Every time I think about it, I feel like beating my head against a brick wall to get the full physical effect.

I do that when I hear words like "intransigent". :D

Thanks, I'm actually working with a few other companies to develop some of this stuff. I've lived with NHT for 15 years and their ability to be intransigent in the face of common sense never ceases to amaze me. Every time I think about it, I feel like beating my head against a brick wall to get the full physical effect.

But NHT seems to be proud of never doing what it should do to be successful. They're too busy being 'rebels'.

Hi Alimentall,
This sounds like a typical growth marketing stratagy (for a new company). Isn't this what NHT did in the past? Is not some of this off track? Too diversified? Not part of the core business?

So under "Recommendations for growth strategies"... item #16: "Offer promotional trade in programs for existing and prospective owners". I have a VT-3 complete system. What would I trade-in for?

Sincerely,
Martin

P.S. VT-3 Ultra Supremo Deluxe (Special Edition): Streamlined cabinet design, space age composite material construction, 5 coats of piano black laquer, drivers matched to 0.5 db, internal wiring by XYZ (expensive wire company of choice).:eek:

If they'd called me back with a reasonable price, I probably could have gotten it. The speaker business seems like one of those ones you can make a small fortune in, if you start with a large fortune. Dodged a bullet, IMO.

Given that what matters to most here (as owners rather than dealers) is continuity of service, parts, warranty, etc. - and that the obligations they probably undertook to keep that going may offset some or all of the value the company might have had - the deal they did seems decent in that respect.

Hi Alimentall,
This sounds like a typical growth marketing stratagy (for a new company). Isn't this what NHT did in the past? Is not some of this off track? Too diversified? Not part of the core business?

Being a rebel only works for awhile, then you have to get serious and start doing what other successful companies do. Look at VW, how they slowly changed from a cheap maker of 2-3 cars to a respected, diverse manufacturer on a large scale. Bill Bush was taking the company in the right direction and the old guard came back, drove him off and went right back to being rebels without a cause, like refusing to do a wood finish so that they can 'save the rain forest', like oak or cherry grows in a rainforest.

So under "Recommendations for growth strategies"... item #16: "Offer promotional trade in programs for existing and prospective owners". I have a VT-3 complete system. What would I trade-in for?

For the flagship analog speaker they never bothered to build.

^^^ Ha ha... selling luxury items and trying to save the rainforest at the same time doesn't go hand in hand when it comes to speakers and furniture in general.

Some of you guys may get a kick out of the crying being done by the recently "demoted" members at the S&V forum!


http://forums.soundandvisionmag.com/audiovideo/board/message?board.id=37&thread.id=184669

I had a long conversation with one of the head S&V guys about how the forum was just out of control and was being run by a bunch of small, petty dictators that drove new people away a few weeks back. They said they were going to have a meeting about it. Or maybe they just made a software change in the board and it reset everyone.

John, do you think the SuperOnes still stack up well compared to the latest Alphas?

The Alphas have a better mid and treble, the SuperOnes have a better bass.

This being the internet, you mean 'base':)

When you say 'better', do you mean 'cleaner' and more open?
(And thanks for the opine.)

No, I mean it makes a better fish taco ;)

Yeah, the tweeter in the SuperOne has a bit of a 'fizz' to it (or is that 'tizz'?) and isn't nearly as good as the PSB's. The midrange on the PSB is more detailed as well. SuperOne has the tighter, cleaner, more focused bass than most any ported speaker.

As an aside, they had told me they were thinking of building the SuperZero and SuperOne again at lower 'made in China' prices and I told them that they were too dated to be selling new, that they needed to update them or just bring back the SB1. The SB1 rocks and is a sales force despite never having been promoted. It's a much better speaker overall than the Super speakers. But Bill Bush designed it, so I'm sure they wouldn't do it. They think Bill Bush was ruining the company, yet somehow, during his reign, they peaked in sales, as I recall.

I finally heard the AZ, Two and Three today, the last NHT partisan on earth to do so, I reckon. Actually, I shouldn't say I really "heard" them . They were lined up in a row, spread way apart Best buy style and powered by a Denon A/V receiver. As an SB1 and 2 owner- in that setup- I of course could hear nothing that would make me want to switch. I wonder if that wasn't possibly a typical experience, though, by some NHT owners that didn't really get to hear them in a good, undistracted environment? I mean, I think it would be easier for a Super series owner to quickly hear the changes (smoothness) from the SZ and SO to SB 1/2 than for an SB owner to determine that the Classics had been reduced to yesterday's new. No?

I got to hear the Fours at length, though- they had their own setup (Denon, receiver again). I was a bit disappointed at first, feeling like there was a bit of a veil on the "music" (a tedious Rob Thomas concert). I'm sure the Denon wasn't exactly slapping the woofers around. But they really grew on me, especially after coming back from a couple of Canton setups. They may not be the best speakers, but they have to be among the most enjoyable and easy to live with.

The speaker I really ended up seriously lusting after was a pair of M5s that the store had one pair of. Talk about tight. And neutral. If space and WAF weren't a bit of a problem and I thought I had the amp power to do 'em justice, I'd have grabbed 'em for sure at $650 the pair. Good Golly, Miss Molly, why would they stop production of those? I hated leaving 'em behind. (I don't know cars, or I'd compare it to some car company giving up on and cancelling a killer model.)

The speaker I really ended up seiously lusting after was a pair of B5s that the store had one pair of. Talk about tight. And neutral. If space and WAF weren't a bit of a problem and I thought I had the amp power to do 'em justice, I'd have grabbed 'em for sure at $650 the pair. Good Golly, Miss Molly, why would they stop production of those? I hated leaving 'em behind. (I don't know cars, or I'd compare it to some car company giving up on and cancelling a killer model.)

Do you mean a pair of T5s (M5s on top of B5s)?

IMO, the Twos trump the SB3's pretty much in every way except for bass, and of you have them crossed over to a sub anyway, then the SB3's only advantage over Twos is even negated.

Strangely enough, I do like the SB1s more than AZs however FWIW.

Whoops- meant M5.

Oh, OK. I was about to say that if you had found a full set of T5s for only $650 - JUMP ON 'EM!!! If you liked the M5s, just wait till you hear them with the B5s filling out the bottom end. ;)

One thing to consider when comparing the newer Classics to the SuperAudio or old Super series is that the three way design of the 2C/3C is a big upgrade over the two way Super Center, SC1, or SC2.

I'd love to pick up some of the older NHT speakers (3.3/2.9/etc) but I'm in the middle of the country and I only see them listed as local pickup only and they are for sale on the coasts. :(

Also sad to hear that the evolution line is in fact dead.
I may be able to help if you are still looking... I have 2 pair of 3.3's available as well as a a pair of M6's, a U1 and an X1.

^^^So, you gettin' a dual sub Xd?

Yup! Got it already... still would like to trade a Black TA-P9000ES for a Champagne one...

Congrats, and I already know you very obviously love 'em since the 3.3s are up for sale.

So how would you say they compare to the 3.3s?

Honestly... I can't say that it is much of an upgrade. The 3.3's, when driven by a suitable amplifier and source units are hard to beat.

I would say I like the XD with dual subs about the same... they are slightly different with each excelling in certain areas.

I have applied the Flat to 20hz filter set to the system... It may be possible that the processing and the digital amps limit the transparancy of the XD's... I got them recently, so there is some additional evaluation to follow...

I have a pair of 3.3s to sell too. Xds are quite a bit better than 3.3s in pretty much every way, but the 3.3s get all the basics right, so at first blush, there are a lot of similarities.

Honestly... I can't say that it is much of an upgrade. The 3.3's, when driven by a suitable amplifier and source units are hard to beat.

I would say I like the XD with dual subs about the same... they are slightly different with each excelling in certain areas.

I have applied the Flat to 20hz filter set to the system... It may be possible that the processing and the digital amps limit the transparancy of the XD's... I got them recently, so there is some additional evaluation to follow...

Try to get a pre-amp with fully balanced XLR outs if you can. IMO it really does make a significant, noticeable difference on Xd.

I recently picked this one up for my 2 channel XD system:

http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=286&Title=Azur+840E+pre+amplifier

... along with it's matching CD player:

http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=112&Title=Azur+840C+Black+Fin+DSP+upsampling+CD+player

... also hooked up to the 840E pre with XLRs. That CA CDP is simply amazing for the $$$. IMO, it easily trumps the more expensive NAD M5 CDP.

As I vaguely seem to recall, you have a Marantz Reference Series CDP, no?

BTW, 'bout time to update the signature once again isn't it? ;)