Well with this said is one better than the other. Would a set of U2 (just 2 subs) be better than the U1. Or do they sound the same.

I have a classic three setup and now I am looking for a subwoofer. I have been looking at the U2. I really like deep bass you can feel. Will the U2 be adequate for this? Because of the size of the room I don't want to be stringing subs all over the place so I either want one KICK A#$ sub or two smaller subs (U2). I will primarily using the system for movies. I have been looking at other subs as well, sunfire, velodyne, svs, rel........

As Matt has stated, they each have their pros and cons when compared to each other, but to have the ultimate, get dual U1s for the best of both worlds, especially since one X1 will drive them both, although you will need two A1 amps.

Hi Mark, just wounding if you could expand on the above comment as to why this is... did three play louder or more dynamic when you lowered the cross-over point any insite would be great.

thanks Neal

No, not louder or more dynamic, in fact, either the M5 or especially the M6 were far louder and more dynamic (IMO of course) than the Threes, but the Three does have better low frequency bass extension than either of the Evolution monitors for more seamless sub/sat blending with no suck out (or drop off) at that low of a crossover point, which could potentially be a big plus on music if your room for whatever reason dictates that the subs have to be located further away from the sats.

While the Three doesn't do low bass quite as well as the SB-3, it's still certainly no slouch for a bookshelf speaker of it's size.

Imo, its way past time to start an 'Official NHT Audio Thread'. The current thread was for Classics, but has become an all in one. So, can we redirect this thread back to the classic line & start the one mentioned? It might help people looking at other than classics....Xd, Controller, etc.

Ric Flair, er.............John, would you do the honors and start the thread? :)


ps- where would one purchase the 'New NHT Classic line to replace Super Audio' thread book or DVD? :D

As Matt has stated, they each have their pros and cons, but to have the ultimate, get dual U1s for the best of both worlds, especially since one X1 will drive them both, although you will need two A1s.

Do you think two U2s (four cabinets total) is pointless compared to having two U1s?

Do you think two U2s (four cabinets total) is pointless compared to having two U1s?

Again, potential pros and cons each way IMO.

The system I use most sort of has this as I have a pair of T5s with a U2 set, but if given the choice, I personally would certianly take dual U1s over dual U2s (four W2s).

Although with twin U2 set up, you could try the Harman white paper theory of a sub at all four mid wall points.

Imo, its way past time to start an 'Official NHT Audio Thread'. The current thread was for Classics, but has become an all in one. So, can we redirect this thread back to the classic line & start the one mentioned? It might help people looking at other than classics....Xd, Controller, etc.

Ric Flair, er.............John, would you do the honors and start the thread? :)


ps- where would one purchase the 'New NHT Classic line to replace Super Audio' thread book or DVD? :D

Sorry, but I disagree as I don't think this thread has veered off topic when we are talking about using Evo subs, the controller, etc with the Classics, or owners of older 2.9s, etc, comparing the sound of them against the newer Classics.

Remember early on when there was nothing but complaints and backlash against NHT for all the delays, so to me, this is all very refreshing.

When you stop to think about it, just look at what NHT has gotten done in the past less than 2 years, rolling out the Xds, the Classic Series, now the matching electronics. I have a feeling the next generation of Evolutions will be next, and I for one can't wait.

Ok then the people have spoken. :rolleyes:

Certainly, if they release updated evos (Xv ?), then the threes will be orphaned in a flash. Until then...we'll go round & round. ;)

Ok then the people have spoken. :rolleyes: Just as they did in your post deciding what is (and is not) appropriate for this thread, huh? :p

Certainly, if they release updated evos (Xv ?), then the threes will be orphaned in a flash. Until then...we'll go round & round. ;)

No one is putting a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to go "round and round" as you put it.

Mark what amps and pre/pro do you use with your system. I remember you talking about NAD but I don't remember if that is what you are using.
Allen

No one is putting a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to go "round and round" as you put it. No one is forcing anyone to take a joke that seriously either. ;)

Mark what amps and pre/pro do you use with your system. I remember you talking about NAD but I don't remember if that is what you are using.
Allen


Well, let's see, right now:

T5/M5/L5/U2 - Cambridge Audio Azur 540R AVR
XD (2 channel) - NAD S100 pre-amp
3.3 (2 channel) - NAD S100/S200 pre-amp and power amp
T6/M6 - NAD S170i/S250 pre-pro and power amp
VT-3/VC-3/VR-3 - NAD T773 AVR
VT-3 (2 channel) - NAD C160/C270 pre-amp and power amp
2.9/AC-2 - HK AVR8000 AVR
Three/U2 (2 ch.) - Outlaw Audio RR2150 stereo receiver
VT-1.4/VS-1.4 - NAD T753 AVR

The T5 based system is the surround system used most along with the 2 channel XD and Three/U2 (office) rigs.

Have also tried Jolida tube integrateds, both full tube and hybrid (with a tube pre-map section and a solid state power amp section), and a Panasonic SA-XR55 digital AVR on NHTs before.

You have Parasound amps, right?

You have Parasound amps, right?

I had 2 parasound 2200II on them for a while. Then I used a argon 2002 on the L/R. Then I had a Sherbourn. Out of all of them the aragon was the best I feel. They older 5 channel Aragon I would love to have but it wouldn't fit in my rack. I could put it on the top shelf but at like a 130lbs I would be worried.

I have been looking at the Rotel 1095 you can find them around $1200.00 on Audiogon so I have been looking and thinking about getting one to try.
Allen

Which Sherbourne?

Which Sherbourne?


It was the 5 channel maybe 1500. I want to say it was one of the older ones or first ones. It had plenty of power but it didn't have the refinment of the Argon and I was using the small aragon 2002. It was only rated at 2 x 125 watts I think but it had a lot more than that. Never had a problem driving my 2.9 and it really did a good job on the M5.
Allen

Well, good news, two of my customers took home their Controllers/Power5s to use with their T5s and T6s, so I hope to get a review from them. I've gotten in 10 or 11 and have a couple on the way and I'm *still* not caught up enough to pull one out for the store, let alone myself.

I do have an MX600 "master remote" that I've programmed to operate as a template for people's setups that has all the codes. I've got to find out how to get a "power on" and "power off" command.

But, most importantly, I'm betting that the Controller really tightens up and better integrates the bass on Evolution and willing to bet that it really makes them sing like they've never sung before.

ok - the gallo sub amp /active xover firms up the bass quite well - Phase controls allow to tweak the 'boominess' for room response w/ the Fours - the X2 should be just as flexible ( if not more based on addl boundry control & LFE adjments) - good call Mark!

John add me to the list of X2 orders (I'll PM u with details)... Mike

It was the 5 channel maybe 1500. I want to say it was one of the older ones or first ones. It had plenty of power but it didn't have the refinment of the Argon and I was using the small aragon 2002. It was only rated at 2 x 125 watts I think but it had a lot more than that. Never had a problem driving my 2.9 and it really did a good job on the M5.
Allen

OK, I thought maybe you had that one (can't remember the model #) that has a separate toroidal transformer for each channel so that in effect they are all mono blocks, and even dual power cords for plugging into different outlets.

I'd like to hear one of those! :D

ok - the gallo sub amp /active xover firms up the bass quite well - Phase controls allow to tweak the 'boominess' for room response w/ the Fours - the X2 should be just as flexible ( if not more based on addl boundry control & LFE adjments) - good call Mark!

John add me to the list of X2 orders (I'll PM u with details)... Mike

I finally heard the Fours this past weekend myself (not from my local dealer though).

They were bi-amped in a 2 channel set up with a NAD C352 integrated amp on the upper drivers (and as the pre-amp obviously) along with a NAD C270 (or maybe C272) running the passive subs in a fairly large room, I'm guessing maybe about 20' X 20", give or take a little each way. Sources were a NAD C542 CD player and the NAD turntable whose model # I don't remember offhand.

All in all, I liked it very much. I think this speaker has great potential with a little tweaking, and would even make a damned fine musical speaker despite it's vented subs with more fine tuning on the bass.

Even as it was, the bass was not too boomy in the room, and the C270 does have a type of output (volume) control to help compensate some on it's own.

I've spent a little time with my Threes in my office rig now, and am familiar enough with them by now to tell that the lower mid-bass on the Fours does indeed seem a little better to my ears, even though I didn't do a the comparison in Harman's multi-million dollar facility with the speaker "turntable". ;) :p :cool: :D In fact, I'm thinking of jacking up the crossover on my Threes to the U2 to 100 Hz, if not 125 just to try it out (it's at 60 now).

I've talked my friend into eventually getting an X2 to go with the NAD amps he has on them, so I'm looking forward to hearing them again when set up that way.

On a side note, I was also very impressed with the NAD C352 integrated amp as well. That is a great little amp.

But, most importantly, I'm betting that the Controller really tightens up and better integrates the bass on Evolution and willing to bet that it really makes them sing like they've never sung before.

I don't know John, they already seem pretty damned tight to me! :p

I am curious though if the controller does not impose a fourth order bandpass on them like the X1 does.

At the very least, hopefully we will eventually see a 20 Hz software update.

I don't suppose that if you want "stereo" bass on the controller that there is by chance a setting that will allow you to use Evo subs with Three monitors with mains set to large or full range is there?

If you want to use stereo subs, you can use them in "U1 with X1" mode rather than "U1 without X1" mode.

I do have an MX600 "master remote" that I've programmed to operate as a template for people's setups that has all the codes. I've got to find out how to get a "power on" and "power off" command. I have the MX850; power on/off is a discrete code - depends on whether the manufacturer of the device you're controlling included it. Only way to find out is load the device profile & look for seperate on/off functions in the lcd menus; then map those to device, on/off (green/red). Kick it up another notch by setting main, on/off to shut everything off! I know...but it works. :)

I bought NHT Classic Three center and a pair of classic zero. The center is quite possible the best i've ever had in my home. I've used paradigm reference, PSB stratus, Energy veritas among a bunch of others, but this one trumps them all. They sound wonderful with my sony str da777es....i was expecting them to sound a tad harsh as sony can be bright sounding, but the combination sounds great! I will be replacing the athena point 5s and this one is a m-a-j-o-r step up. But $ for $, athenas are the best bang for the buck!
The NHT did cost a lot more than i wanted to spend, but i've no regrets. I though wish that i had a chance to compare these with the onix XLS ...

If you want to use stereo subs, you can use them in "U1 with X1" mode rather than "U1 without X1" mode.

Cool! I assume there is also one for T6 as well?

Hey John, have you got in any X2s yet?

On the way, should have some next week.

I haven't read though this whole thread, but I have a question I hope hasn't been asked already. I have 4 SB2's 3 of which were my mains and I just picked up another so these will be relegated to surround duty in a 7.1 system. I'm planning on getting a pair of Classic Threes and a Two C center. Do you think this is a good match front and rear or do they sound too different?

EDIT in RED

I haven't read though this whole thread, but I have a question I hope has been asked already. I have 4 SB2's 3 of which were my mains and I just picked up another so these will be relegated to surround duty in a 7.1 system. I'm planning on getting a pair of Classic Threes and a Two C center. Do you think this is a good match front and rear or do they sound too different?

Should be good enough. I tend to think matching the fronts and rears isn't as important as matchign within the fronts and within the rears. But it depends on how demanding the material you're playing back is of things like front to back transitions. Somethign from the Classic series woudl probably better, but I think not significantly so unless you were going Threes all the way around.

I would suggest going ahead and ponying up for the 3C, though. Might as well match to those Threes as well as possible...

Should be good enough. I tend to think matching the fronts and rears isn't as important as matchign within the fronts and within the rears. But it depends on how demanding the material you're playing back is of things like front to back transitions. Somethign from the Classic series woudl probably better, but I think not significantly so unless you were going Threes all the way around.

I would suggest going ahead and ponying up for the 3C, though. Might as well match to those Threes as well as possible...

Plus one on all that, especially the last part.

You guys are probably right about the 2C.

My local high-end shop gave me an NHT Classic brochure which I've been staring at for a while so now I'm thinking of moving up to the floor stander Classic Fours and the Three C center. They didn't get a super stellar review from hometheatersound's website, though, which is my one reservation. I need to go back and listen to them again for myself.

I probably don't really NEED the Classic Fours, though, since I have an SVS PB10-ISD sub which goes down below 20Hz easily and pressurizes the room something crazy.

They didn't get a super stellar review from hometheatersound's website, though, which is my one reservation. Don't let that stop you. Based on his setup issues, the guy who reviewed them there is an amateur at best.

You guys are probably right about the 2C.

My local high-end shop gave me an NHT Classic brochure which I've been staring at for a while so now I'm thinking of moving up to the floor stander Classic Fours and the Three C center. They didn't get a super stellar review from hometheatersound's website, though, which is my one reservation. I need to go back and listen to them again for myself. BINGO!! We have a winner!

I probably don't really NEED the Classic Fours, though, since I have an SVS PB10-ISD sub which goes down below 20Hz easily and pressurizes the room something crazy.

Since you already have the PB10, why not just get the Threes?

Then sink the difference in the $$$ between the Threes and Fours into a U2 set or a U1 for music and still have the SVS for movies?

Since you already have the PB10, why not just get the Threes?

Then sink the difference in the $$$ between the Threes and Fours into a U2 set or a U1 for music and still have the SVS for movies?

Yep. I'd imagine the PB10 would keep you pretty happy when compared to the Fours, especially considering the extra grand you'd save.

And of course, a U1 or U2 set for music would be sweet...

Yep. I'd imagine the PB10 would keep you pretty happy when compared to the Fours, especially considering the extra grand you'd save.

And of course, a U1 or U2 set for music would be sweet...

Exactly! I know having the SVS AND an EVO sub or subs would be a little redundant, but then again, so would having the Fours and the SVS too. If he's not planning on getting an Evo sub, then instead of going the route of Fours with the PB10, I'd suggest getting a second PB10 first to go with Threes on stands.

But for music, I'd much rather have Evo subs than the SVS and/or the Fours.

Don't let that stop you. Based on his setup issues, the guy who reviewed them there is an amateur at best.

hey guys, i am a newbie and my local shop carries the nht classic line. i read the review on that website and i dont understand the setup issue with the threes that you are talking about. are they tough to setup?

FRED

hey guys, i am a newbie and my local shop carries the nht classic line. i read the review on that website and i dont understand the setup issue with the threes that you are talking about. are they tough to setup?

FRED Take some advice...before you create a nick like <i luv manufacturer abc> go out & try them first. Yes, they are easy to setup, and yes they are an awesome bargain. :rolleyes:

hey guys, i am a newbie and my local shop carries the nht classic line. i read the review on that website and i dont understand the setup issue with the threes that you are talking about. are they tough to setup?

FRED
Go ahead and listen to them. I just bought them and they sound just great. Now i have a complete NHT classic HT setup with 3s in the front, AZ in the rear and 3C as the center :cool: I'm looking for a good deal on some wall mounts that can hold the AZs.

You are going to love these speakers, and like someone else mentioned, they are a great bargain...more so for me, as i bought them used ;)

Go ahead and listen to them. I just bought them and they sound just great. Now i have a complete NHT classic HT setup with 3s in the front, AZ in the rear and 3C as the center :cool: I'm looking for a good deal on some wall mounts that can hold the AZs.

Buy.com has the recommended Omnimount 10.0 for a very reasonale price, particularly compared to other mounting options. I've got them and I recommend them (mostly). Angles are a bit restricted because of the distance from the speaker to the wall, and it's a bit of a pain to wire them after they're on the wall for the same reason. But once they're up, they're great.

It looks like NHT would come out with a matching, wall mountable surround for the Three/Four like the L5 is to the M5/M6.

It just makes too much sense not to.

hey guys, i am a newbie and my local shop carries the nht classic line. i read the review on that website and i dont understand the setup issue with the threes that you are talking about. are they tough to setup?

No, it's just that the reviewer seemed to be that much of a novice that he doesn't understand how to adjust his rears and such. Remember that most reviewers know just enough to be dangerous and have *some* writing skills. Most all are part timers, doctors, civil engineers, 711 clerks etc. And, since many don't understand the basics of speaker design or acoustics or HT setup, you often get reviews that are as puzzling as they are useful.

John:

What happened to the promised CEDIA report on all things NHT? Inquiring minds wanna know! Did you get a chance to corner any of the engineers from Vinci? Don't tell me Jack is still ducking you! :p

I did corner some Vinci engineers. I'll do some reporting later, but a) 1.3 is coming and b) they said the Controller has tons of left over horsepower, enough to do room correction even. They said basically "no comment" when asked if they're going to do it. However, there is a microphone, so all the hardware for room correction is in place. They even said there was plenty of space to put more NHT algorithms is, even older product. So, don't let NHT guys throw you off the trail with excuses, it's possible :)

Oh, yeah, Jack didn't even come to CEDIA. Some excuse about a car race he was in or something.

I did corner some Vinci engineers. I'll do some reporting later, but a) 1.3 is coming and b) they said the Controller has tons of left over horsepower, enough to do room correction even. They said basically "no comment" when asked if they're going to do it. However, there is a microphone, so all the hardware for room correction is in place. They even said there was plenty of space to put more NHT algorithms is, even older product. So, don't let NHT guys throw you off the trail with excuses, it's possible :)

Oh, yeah, Jack didn't even come to CEDIA. Some excuse about a car race he was in or something.

Thanks for those tidbits of info John; all good news to me! It will be interesting to see how the upgrade cycle is handled and what the cost of doing this will be. Given the relatively small number of Controllers out there, I imagine (hope) the process will be relatively painless. I'll look forward to hearing more, when you have time to peck it all out. TIA!

I gotta wonder about Jack being more interested in pushing a Rustang around a track versus going to one of the bigger events on the CE calendar. :rolleyes:

John,

I don't suppose they had any info on the filters for Xd, did they? I'm starting to think it would be quicker for me learn how to program an XdA myself. :rolleyes:

I agree. Judging by how slow these supposed XD updates that actually already exist are in actually seeing the light of day, I wouldn't exactly hold my breath over Controller updates. :( :mad:

Well, okay, everyone hold on. I was just told that some Xd updates were being readied to be put on the website "in the next few weeks". I'll keep on them about this. I was going to push Jack on this, but he wasn't at CEDIA. Yes, I know it's going slow, but also remember that the work being done by NHT on Xd and the work being done on the Controller are done by different teams in different countries. There's really no overlap or comparison on these. To be honest, I have no idea why new Xd filters aren't up. Again, my only guess is that they want to have *real* software that installs it, like a suite of filters that makes it easy for the customer to install, rather than something like Meridian does, which is a bit more daunting for the non techy types.

I wish I could get graphs out of NHT. The Fours set up with controller seemed to have much better bass integration and tightness and seemed to blend in better without being as overtly powerful sounding. I didn't have much time to listen, but Peter Gabriel's Growing Up sounded very different when I played for someone with the Controller knowing that it was playing the Fours.

Wow. I just listened to T5E (Fifth Element!) on the Four/Three/ThreeC combo with the Controller/Power5. Yikes! It is a bit brighter than the T5/T6 in my room and the bass might not be quite as good, but the soundstaging/resolution is awesome. There was a lot more height and sense of being completely surrounded to the sound and all of the subtle little effects sounded quite a bit more realistic. Just little noises in the background came across as incredibly real and "there". In fact, you really do feel more transported with these. I did hear a bit of sibilance at times, but not that much (keep in mind, my room is a bit underdamped and bright). I'll do some more listening.

I'm pretty sure you'll notice that the Controller makes a big difference in bass quality/integration, though it does seem to lessen it a bit. BUT, I did move the speakers to the place the T6s always occupied, so I'm trying to confirm my impressions with NHT. Shouldn't take but a few more months to do *that* :rolleyes:

What would you think of this system John, Fours as mains, a 3C center, Threes as both side and rear surrounds, a U1 or U2 sub, the Controller as a pre-pro, a NAD S200 power amp for the Four mains, and a NAD S250 power amp for the 3C center and Three surrounds? :eek:

You tell me ;)

I'm kinda thinking that 7 Threes, 3 U1s, a Controller and two Power5s would be pretty cool too :)

You tell me ;)

I just might one of these days. :cool:

I'm kinda thinking that 7 Threes, 3 U1s, a Controller and two Power5s would be pretty cool too :)

Either option should have PLENTY of good, clean, tight bass. :D

To take it even further, how about Fours also as side surrounds in addition to mains, if not as rear surrounds too? :eek:

If using T6s (or T5s) with the controller, but without the X1, and you set the sub option accordingly as such, do you still set the mains as T6 (or T5), or M6 (or M5)? :confused:

Not to be negative here, but
I am hoping that NHT is working on some kind
of an update with the Classic 3/4 that will take the edge off
the treble and some of the forwardness.
As much as I want the Classics in my house I
am having a hard time justifying spending $650-1500 for a
pair of Threes or Fours that have a top end that fatigues me.

I feel like I have approached these speakers with an open
mind and an open check book but I just can't commit until
I see some kind of mod from NHT.

Jack, are you still listening?

Not to be negative here, but
I am hoping that NHT is working on some kind
of an update with the Classic 3/4 that will take the edge off
the treble and some of the forwardness.
As much as I want the Classics in my house I
am having a hard time justifying spending $650-1500 for a
pair of Threes or Fours that have a top end that fatigues me.

I feel like I have approached these speakers with an open
mind and an open check book but I just can't commit until
I see some kind of mod from NHT.

Jack, are you still listening?

So you have auditioned these in your home and found them ~harsh?

Not to be negative here, but
I am hoping that NHT is working on some kind
of an update with the Classic 3/4 that will take the edge off
the treble and some of the forwardness.
As much as I want the Classics in my house I
am having a hard time justifying spending $650-1500 for a
pair of Threes or Fours that have a top end that fatigues me.

I feel like I have approached these speakers with an open
mind and an open check book but I just can't commit until
I see some kind of mod from NHT.

Jack, are you still listening?

While they are noticeably brighter than the Evolutions, they still aren't quite as bright as the 3.3s/2.9s, all IMO of course. YMMV

I can literally listen to Evolutions all day long with no fatigue.

Do you mean an update for the Threes/Fours on the controller, or for the speakers themselves?

BTW, it looks like some XD filter updates are finally up on the NHT website.

Not to be negative here, but
I am hoping that NHT is working on some kind
of an update with the Classic 3/4 that will take the edge off
the treble and some of the forwardness.
As much as I want the Classics in my house I
am having a hard time justifying spending $650-1500 for a
pair of Threes or Fours that have a top end that fatigues me.

Did you listen in your house? They're a bit bright in my "sound" room (upper midrange, actually), but so is just about *everything*. Then I take these things home and marvel at how smooth and lacking in distortion they are. Make sure you actually listen at home if you can. At least take the Threes, that's easy enough. They're *way* less forward than most B&Ws, Focals, Axioms, Epos, etc.

Yes. Listened to the Threes for about 3 days in my house.
I probably should clarify.
it is more of a upper midrange and lower treble forwardness than a harsh treble.
Violins, guitars, etc. on certain recordings are too much for me.
Sometimes even the female voice is too overpowering.

Well, we probably covered this now that I think of it. I do agree that the dome is a bit forward on the Three, less so on the Four. It seems be tweaked further via the Controller, however. I'm trying to confirm this, but Jack, so far, refuses to give up any data on what the Controller specifically does. Don't know if he thinks he'll be attacked for not making a perfect analog speaker or *what*.

I've been considering a 2.1 system with a pair of the Absolute Zero speakers as mains. This is for a small apt. setup. The listening space is 13' by 14'. I've been also considering the HK AVR 240 for the receiver. WAF factor is high and budget is around $1000 so this seems to fit the bill. How do you guys think the HK will pair with the NHT's? Main listening will be for music but the system will be used for some movies and TV watching also. I'm also considering the NHT SW10II sub. It and the HK are on closeout right now on *******.com. Please let me know if this sounds good or are there other suggestions for an AVR that will match better with these speakers. Keep in mind music will be my main listening. I'm also considering Marantz but the look of the HK is killer. Let me know what you guys think. I have provided links. Hopefully they work. Let me know what you guys think.

http://www.*******.com/ProductDetail...=true&id=29756

http://www.*******.com/ProductDetail...age=2&id=29717

http://www.*******.com/ProductDetail...age=1&id=19069

Ok, links don't work but the HK and the sub are both on closeout . The HK is $300 and the sub is also. And the Classic Zero is around $400/pair so I'm right around my budget. So let me know what you guys think about that system.

I've been considering a 2.1 system with a pair of the Absolute Zero speakers as mains. This is for a small apt. setup. The listening space is 13' by 14'. I've been also considering the HK AVR 240 for the receiver. WAF factor is high and budget is around $1000 so this seems to fit the bill. How do you guys think the HK will pair with the NHT's? Main listening will be for music but the system will be used for some movies and TV watching also. I'm also considering the NHT SW10II sub. It and the HK are on closeout right now on *******.com. Please let me know if this sounds good or are there other suggestions for an AVR that will match better with these speakers. Keep in mind music will be my main listening. I'm also considering Marantz but the look of the HK is killer. Let me know what you guys think. I have provided links. Hopefully they work. Let me know what you guys think.

The SW10ii is a good deal at that price and, size-wise, a good match for the AZs. It should serve you well. It's practically identical to the Classic Ten except for the styling.

As for the receiver, do you really need an AVR? I guess going with that instead of a two channel receiver gets you better bass management, a DAC, video switching, and surround sound support for future expansion, but if you bought a stereo receiver, you would probably get more sonic performance for your money.

The HK may be a good deal, but I'm not crazy about 'em. I'd probably look more towards NAD, Cambridge, Outlaw, Arcam, Rotel. But you may not be able to find something you're happy with in the same price range for those.

I originally started an NHT thread, but I think this is a better place for my question.

OK, I have decided that I need NHT speakers for my surround sound setup I am planning. I have been looking at their lines and reading the various reviews out there, and have decided I need them.

I am in the philly area and cannot find any dealer in the area that has the M5 and Fours on display. I called like 10 of them. So, I figured I would just get some opinions here.

I am looking at two speaker set-ups.

1 – Pair of Classic Fours, Three C Center, and Threes for the rear, an A1 amp and X1 Crossover. The list price on this combo is $3950.00

2 – 5 M5s and the U2 sub. List price on this is $3650.00.

I had thought about using the L5s with the U2 sub, but I figured the M5s would be more flexible if I used stands. Also if I ever wanted to move them to a different room I wouldn’t have any issues.

Does oneof these setups look better than the next. Is it better to have the U2 sub for the deep bass, rather than running an amp to the Fours?

If you were putting one of these setups in your home, which one would you do. The room in question is 15x20 with 18' ceilings. There is no back wall in the room (it opens to the kitchen), it has hardwood floors, and one wall is windows. I guess I could post some pics or a link to pics of the room if that would help.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Also, I will probably be using their Controller and Power5 amp, unless any one has a better recommendation.

Thanks...Mike

mattwardfh, thanks for your advice. I may consider a stereo receiver. I was thinking AVR since even though my main listening is 2 channel I plan to expand to 5.1 when I have a larger space. I also have an HDTV set. I guess I could always get a stereo receiver for now and then upgrade and move the stereo receiver to the bedroom or sell it. What about a Marantz stereo receiver? I've seen a good deal on one particular site. And the HK 3480 seems to get good reviews. Thoughts? The NAD and others that you mentioned I think will be more expensive won't they?

The SW10ii is a good deal at that price and, size-wise, a good match for the AZs. It should serve you well. It's practically identical to the Classic Ten except for the styling.

Well, not really. The amp is similar, but the driver is not. For $300? Sure. Though, remember, it is two generations behind! I don't know how they could still have them. I sold out of the SW10ii successor a year ago! :eek:

BTW, it looks like some XD filter updates are finally up on the NHT website.

:D Finally!

I am looking at two speaker set-ups.

1 – Pair of Classic Fours, Three C Center, and Threes for the rear, an A1 amp and X1 Crossover. You mean an X2, as the X1 is ONLY for Evolution subs. The list price on this combo is $3950.00

2 – 5 M5s and the U2 sub. List price on this is $3650.00.

I had thought about using the L5s with the U2 sub, but I figured the M5s would be more flexible if I used stands. Also if I ever wanted to move them to a different room I wouldn’t have any issues.

Does oneof these setups look better than the next. Is it better to have the U2 sub for the deep bass, rather than running an amp to the Fours? Yes.

If you were putting one of these setups in your home, which one would you do. The room in question is 15x20 with 18' ceilings. There is no back wall in the room (it opens to the kitchen), it has hardwood floors, and one wall is windows. I guess I could post some pics or a link to pics of the room if that would help.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Also, I will probably be using their Controller and Power5 amp, unless any one has a better recommendation. If you are using the controller, then the X1 or the X2 won't be necessary.

Thanks...Mike

I still like the Evolutions better than the Classics. As for you, only you can decide that.

Well, we probably covered this now that I think of it. I do agree that the dome is a bit forward on the Three, less so on the Four. It seems be tweaked further via the Controller, however. I'm trying to confirm this, but Jack, so far, refuses to give up any data on what the Controller specifically does. Don't know if he thinks he'll be attacked for not making a perfect analog speaker or *what*.

Or you could simply cross the Threes over at 125 Hz, but then you will need to have the W1s or W2s (or whatever subs) really close, like within a foot or so of each Three used for L/R mains.

I've been considering a 2.1 system with a pair of the Absolute Zero speakers as mains. This is for a small apt. setup. The listening space is 13' by 14'. I've been also considering the HK AVR 240 for the receiver. WAF factor is high and budget is around $1000 so this seems to fit the bill. How do you guys think the HK will pair with the NHT's? Main listening will be for music but the system will be used for some movies and TV watching also. I'm also considering the NHT SW10II sub. It and the HK are on closeout right now on *******.com. Please let me know if this sounds good or are there other suggestions for an AVR that will match better with these speakers. Keep in mind music will be my main listening. I'm also considering Marantz but the look of the HK is killer. Let me know what you guys think. I have provided links. Hopefully they work. Let me know what you guys think.


I ran a HK 240 driving a pair of Threes in a 2 channel rig with a U2 sub with the crossover set to 60 Hz in a room not too much smaller than yours, so in short, yes, the HK 240 will work fine.

Well, not really. The amp is similar, but the driver is not. For $300? Sure. Though, remember, it is two generations behind! I don't know how they could still have them. I sold out of the SW10ii successor a year ago! :eek:

Oh, OK. I was repeating what I thought I had heard you say. I thought the SW10ii was last gen, not two gens ago (the original SW12?)?

1 – Pair of Classic Fours, Three C Center, and Threes for the rear, an A1 amp and X1 Crossover. The list price on this combo is $3950.00

2 – 5 M5s and the U2 sub. List price on this is $3650.00.

Does oneof these setups look better than the next. Is it better to have the U2 sub for the deep bass, rather than running an amp to the Fours?

I'd say you should also consider a Three/3C/U1 (or U2) setup.

mattwardfh, thanks for your advice. I may consider a stereo receiver. I was thinking AVR since even though my main listening is 2 channel I plan to expand to 5.1 when I have a larger space. I also have an HDTV set. I guess I could always get a stereo receiver for now and then upgrade and move the stereo receiver to the bedroom or sell it. What about a Marantz stereo receiver? I've seen a good deal on one particular site. And the HK 3480 seems to get good reviews. Thoughts? The NAD and others that you mentioned I think will be more expensive won't they?

Well, maybe I spoke too quickly on the HK as others seem to like it.

The other equipment would be more expensive if you were looking at AVRs, but maybe not much more if you're looking at 2 channel.

But there's a pretty good argument to be made for just going with an AVR in your case, especially if you're upgrading to 5.1 eventually. So maybe your original plan is the best way to go. Any chance you could audition some of this gear?

I just installed the dual XdW filter into the XdA. I only had time to play a couple of tracks but the system now sounds cleaner and punchier with a smoother top end. This is very cool. The speakers that I love just got a little bit better! :)

Tell me what would make a good 7.1 system for NHT using the Fours?

Tell me what would make a good 7.1 system for NHT using the Fours?

3 C center for sure, Threes as surrounds, although Twos or Zeros would work, and a sub of your choice would be optional.

I just installed the dual XdW filter into the XdA. I only had time to play a couple of tracks but the system now sounds cleaner and punchier with a smoother top end. This is very cool. The speakers that I love just got a little bit better! :)

Although I haven't had a chance to yet, that's what I'm going to do too since I also have dual XdWs. :D

Tell me what would make a good 7.1 system for NHT using the Fours?

I was *just* about to invite you over here ;)

Obviously, 4 Threes and a ThreeC in addition, you can't get much better matched than that! Or with 4 iW4s inwalls in the back if you must.

3 C center for sure, Threes as surrounds, although Twos or Zeros would work, and a sub of your choice would be optional.


Thank you for the input..I have to decide on if it is di/bipole I like better. This is all new to me and asking that question is useless on a forum. I am going to look/listen to some NHT this weekend. Hopefully they have somewhat of a HT set up to listen to...

Thanks again.

I was *just* about to invite you over here ;)

Obviously, 4 Threes and a ThreeC in addition, you can't get much better matched than that! Or with 4 iW4s inwalls in the back if you must.

Too funny.............

So if I ordered ID from you is it cheaper....lol.

Just Kidding...

Thank you for the input..I have to decide on if it is di/bipole I like better. This is all new to me and asking that question is useless on a forum. I am going to look/listen to some NHT this weekend. Hopefully they have somewhat of a HT set up to listen to....

If you can do 7.1, you almost definitely want direct speakers. The whole point of 7.1 is to allow for both an enveloping stage and pinpoint precision within that stage. Best of both worlds and when the speakers match, it's seamless. In fact, I can't believe how seamless 5.1 is with the Three/Four combo.

Audiophyte, would the SubTwo advertised at audiogon be too big (even if covered with a small tablecloth)? It's a little high, but perhaps a polite offer of less would have a chance. You could grab a pair of SB1s for under $200 with a little patience. A 3480-Z for around $200 rounds it out. When you move to a new place, the 3480 could be sold or moved to the basement.
The SubTwo electronics gives you all your bass management. I believe the 3480 has pre-in and main-outs, no?

Matt, I have heard the HK but unfortunately there is not an NHT dealer near me. I am located in MS and there is really only one higher end shop near me. But they don't carry NHT. Only B&W, Klipsch, & Polk LSi series. I've heard many good things about NHT though and am willing to take a chance on them online(from authorized dealer of course) if they are worth it which I believe they are.

I'd say you should also consider a Three/3C/U1 (or U2) setup.

That looks interesting as well...Is a Three better than a M5. It looks like the Three may be comprised of newer technology??

Thanks...Mike

Only you can decide that. All in all, I like the M5s better than the Threes.

Only you can decide that. All in all, I like the M5s better than the Threes.

Thanks....The disadvantage I have is that no one near me has them, so I cannot really listen. I was just reading some brochures and I see the M5 has treated paper and propylene cones, while the Threes have Aluminum??? Does this matter? Or is it what defines the sound of the speaker?

If I am spending this much money, should I consider their Ultimate Xd setup?

Thanks...Mike

That looks interesting as well...Is a Three better than a M5. It looks like the Three may be comprised of newer technology??

Thanks...Mike

Threes: Better dispersion, maybe a little brighter?
M5s: Maximum dynamic impact (2 woofers), dispersion optimized for acoustically "different" rooms

At least, that's my understanding.

Also, there's always the secondary consideration of aesthetics.

Thanks....The disadvantage I have is that no one near me has them, so I cannot really listen. I was just reading some brochures and I see the M5 has treated paper and propylene cones, while the Threes have Aluminum??? Does this matter? Or is it what defines the sound of the speaker?

If I am spending this much money, should I consider their Ultimate Xd setup?

Thanks...Mike

Well, that would cost you a bundle. A 4.2 Xd setup would, for example, be $12000, plus the cost of a preamp. I think that should make the Three/3C/U2 or M5/U2 combos look pretty cheap... at least, until you start looking at the NHT sepparates. So I guess it's worth considering, but if you want to spend a whole lot less you might consider going with a nice integrated AV receiver...

Well, you could become part of the "Adopt a Local Dealer" program and go for the 7.4 Xd/Controller setup.

:)

Well, that would cost you a bundle. A 4.2 Xd setup would, for example, be $12000, plus the cost of a preamp. I think that should make the Three/3C/U2 or M5/U2 combos look pretty cheap... at least, until you start looking at the NHT sepparates. So I guess it's worth considering, but if you want to spend a whole lot less you might consider going with a nice integrated AV receiver...

Oh, I thought the whole Xd setup was $6000.00. On their site the system is 6 XdS, an XdW subwoofer, then the controller and the XdA amp. Maybe I am horribly mistaken...

Thanks...Mike

Oh, I thought the whole Xd setup was $6000.00. On their site the system is 6 XdS, an XdW subwoofer, then the controller and the XdA amp. Maybe I am horribly mistaken...

Thanks...Mike

$6K gets you a 2.1 rig......a damn fine 2.1 rig, but a 2.1 rig none the less.

Brian

I'm telling ya.... 7.4

You don't reeeely need that new car do you? :)

$6K gets you a 2.1 rig......a damn fine 2.1 rig, but a 2.1 rig none the less.

Brian

I had a chance to spend about an hour listening to a well set-up demo of the same a few months back and agree whole heartedly. Amazing little buggers.

Out of my reach price-wise, I'm afraid.

I'm telling ya.... 7.4

You don't reeeely need that new car do you? :)


Out of my reach price-wise, I'm afraid.

Oh wow. I thought 6000.00 even included the controller. Damn. I think I will get the controller and the Power 5, now I just need to decide between the Three/ThreeC/U2 or the M5/U2 speakers.

Damn, that is just expensive....I guess I was looking at pictures and seeing prices, but not reading the details.

Holy crap.

Thanks...Mike

Oh wow. I thought 6000.00 even included the controller. Damn. I think I will get the controller and the Power 5, now I just need to decide between the Three/ThreeC/U2 or the M5/U2 speakers.

Damn, that is just expensive....I guess I was looking at pictures and seeing prices, but not reading the details.

Holy crap.

Thanks...Mike

Just to be clear, you do get the DEQX box, which includes the amps and digital crossovers, plust the two sats, the sub, stands and the cables.

Just add a pre-amp and source, and rock on!

Sneezy, I spent about the same amount of time at John's shop listenning with some of my fav CD's, and a few John had. A totally amazing system.

The talk about "sit up, sit down, move left, move right"...no B.S. You have to pretty much stick your ear up to one of the sats before the soundstage collapses.

Alas, since I have other high $$$$ hobbies, I am slumming it in my 2CH rig with a pair of AZ's, an old klipsch sub, and a NAD 320BEE Integrated. Fine sound, and when you look at the price, its better still, but it ain't no Xd.

Brian

Well, I pulled the trigger. I went with 5 M5, a U2, the Controller and the Power5. Now hopefully I can set them up properly.....

Thanks for all the comments...

Mike

Well, I pulled the trigger. I went with 5 M5, a U2, the Controller and the Power5. Now hopefully I can set them up properly.....

Thanks for all the comments...

Mike

So what was the deciding factor?

You shouldn't have much trouble setting it up properly. The Controller should make that all quite easy.

Mike,

Just so you know, you don't *need* the X1! So that should save you about $300.

Mike,

Just so you know, you don't *need* the X1! So that should save you about $300.

I talked with some of the folks and they said I probably didn't need it, but i could need it...So, I just got it...

As for my deciding factors, most of the people I talked to liked the sound of the M5, and I think my room is probably better suited for them...I have goofy acoustics, hardwood floors and a wall of windows...


Thanks...Mike

I talked with some of the folks and they said I probably didn't need it, but i could need it...So, I just got it...

As for my deciding factors, most of the people I talked to liked the sound of the M5, and I think my room is probably better suited for them...I have goofy acoustics, hardwood floors and a wall of windows...

Thanks...Mike

Sounds like a pretty good case for the M5, then. Let us know what you think when you get it!

Sounds like a pretty good case for the M5, then. Let us know what you think when you get it!

Will do...Hopefully, I will have everything by the end of next week. Now I just need to find some stands....

Thanks...Mike

Where can one find the proper Stands for the Classic Three's? Also is there really only the 3 dealer options shown on the NHT page? Seems kinda limited.

Thanks,
Brandon

Will do...Hopefully, I will have everything by the end of next week. Now I just need to find some stands....

I have orphaned P5s I need to sell!!!

Where can one find the proper Stands for the Classic Three's? Also is there really only the 3 dealer options shown on the NHT page? Seems kinda limited.

I had the piano black Targets that look great with the Threes, just ran out though :( More coming!!! :)

Where can one find the proper Stands for the Classic Three's? Also is there really only the 3 dealer options shown on the NHT page? Seems kinda limited.

Thanks,
Brandon

Three online dealers, many more brick & mortar dealers.

I have orphaned P5s I need to sell!!!

How many and how much? I was looking at some sanus stands.

How tall are the P5s? I measured my ear level at a sitting position and it comes in around 43". I figure the center of the M5 is about 9", so something around 36 " would be good.

Am I thinking about this correctly. I know I need at least 4 stands. I still have to figure out what to do about the center speaker. Currently I have my TV mounted above my fireplace. I removed the gas logs and have my equipment in the fireplace. I am not sure if I just want to put all the components in front of the fireplace in a nice rack, with the center speaker on top. Or if I want to figure out a way to mount the speaker to the wall, or if I just stick it in the center.

Anyway, let me know what you are looking to get for the stands. They would need to be shipped to 18901....

Thanks...Mike

How many and how much? I was looking at some sanus stands.

How tall are the P5s? I measured my ear level at a sitting position and it comes in around 43". I figure the center of the M5 is about 9", so something around 36 " would be good.

Am I thinking about this correctly. I know I need at least 4 stands. I still have to figure out what to do about the center speaker. Currently I have my TV mounted above my fireplace. I removed the gas logs and have my equipment in the fireplace. I am not sure if I just want to put all the components in front of the fireplace in a nice rack, with the center speaker on top. Or if I want to figure out a way to mount the speaker to the wall, or if I just stick it in the center.

Anyway, let me know what you are looking to get for the stands. They would need to be shipped to 18901....

Thanks...Mike

Don't forget that they'll be perfectly matched to the M5 in terms of ciolor. Should look pretty slick!

OK, my speakers are coming tomorrow and I am without stands. I am trying to figure out the best height, but i will need to make a slight compromise one way or the other.

From reading my speaker manual, it says the tweeter should be at ear level, so in my case (NHT M5) the tweeter in 9" up from the bottom of the speaker. Now if I measure my ear level sitting erect, I get somewhere around 42", lounging in the chair, maybe 36" and laying on the couch 34" or so.

The options I have with the stands I like (Sanus) are 24", 30" and 36". I am leaning toward the 30" stands. NHT offers a 25" stand, it s just a little pricey. If I go with the 24" stand I come in at 33" and if I go with the 30" I get 39". Is it better to be a little lower or higher or am I totally overanalyzing this???

Any help would be appreciated. Maybe I can get some stands ordered tonight and in my hands by the weekend.

I also thought with the taller stand I could always cut it down if i needed too.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks...Mike

I am intersted in auditioning the classics to maybe replace my beloved monitor audios, but do not have any dealers other than some custom installers and an unauthorized ebay dealer. Are there any authorized online dealers with a respectable return policy?

I am intersted in auditioning the classics to maybe replace my beloved monitor audios, but do not have any dealers other than some custom installers and an unauthorized ebay dealer. Are there any authorized online dealers with a respectable return policy? NHT has an authorized dealer list on their site, or call them to verify...buying from non-authorized dealers = no warranty.

Kris, I have a "not for sale" pair of Threes floating around the country if you want them to take a pitstop.

NHT has an authorized dealer list on their site, or call them to verify...buying from non-authorized dealers = no warranty.

Is JR and authorized dealer?

Has anyone comapred these to any other speakers? Im contemplating these or the discontinued Monitor Audio gold series for the same price as the 3's. Also if I decide to go on the cheap route, will the 3 center match the AZ's?

Also if I decide to go on the cheap route, will the 3 center match the AZ's?

No, not as L/R mains anyway.

I have had the classic threes for a little while now, they really make me want to upgrade my old Klipsch center channel which is a tad too efficient, I had to turn down the volume on that channel so it wouldn't be so overpowering.

I am looking at NHT's Classic 3C as my new center - does it pair well with the Classic 3's (I'd assume so) - I will do more searching in this thread.

I am looking at NHT's Classic 3C as my new center - does it pair well with the Classic 3's ...

Yes, as good as possible.

I just ordered a pair of Classic Threes and a Three C center channel. My four SB2s will now serve as surrounds. I figure if < SB2 < SB3 < Classic 3, then I should be :) I am also leaving the door open to a pair of Classic Four floor standers. All of this, sound unheard!

Congrats! You will not be disappointed as I can pretty much guarantee you you will like the Threes better than the SB2s.

Thanks Mark. After my first SuperZeros, there is no other speaker brand that interests me.

Thanks Mark. After my first SuperZeros, there is no other speaker brand that interests me.

Indeed. Still a great speaker! I've got a pair of the XU design as part of a bedroom system.

NHT's totally hooked me on acoustic suspension designs...

Kris, I have a "not for sale" pair of Threes floating around the country if you want them to take a pitstop.


Not sure why I skipped over your post.

PM sent

Audiophile Audition Review of NHT Classic 4 (http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=1954)

Cool review, but gee, what is the "NHT Evolution 4000"? :rolleyes:

Actually, it's a very good review for an ESL/ribbon/dipole (or horns or single driver or.......) guy. It's usually a waste of time to send them any conventional speakers because it just is an opportunity to proclaim the superiority of their type of speaker system.

Cool review, but gee, what is the "NHT Evolution 4000"? :rolleyes:

Actually, it's a very good review for an ESL/ribbon/dipole (or horns or single driver or.......) guy. It's usually a waste of time to send them any conventional speakers because it just is an opportunity to proclaim the superiority of their type of speaker system.


Wasn't $4000.00 the list price for the T6. Since he wanted speakers under $5000.00 I bet that is what he meant. On the other hand I can't wait to hear the NEW NHT EVOLUTION 4000 SPEAKERS. :D
They are the next great speaker replacing the M6 and M5.
They New 4000 series even gets new subs with duel sealed 15" woofers a new redesigned plate amp with 1500 watts.

John when will you have these in stock.
Let me guess June 2008.
Allen :cool:

OK, I just got all my NHT Stuff set up. 5 - M5, U2, A1, X1, Controller and Power5. In the Evolution manual it tells me to set the Front speakers to large and all others small. In the Controller manual (i think), it tells me that the controller manages all that mess, so I do not have to manually set anything. In the sizing menus there is a pick for NHT. So do I just go with NHT for everything and not worry about Small/Medium/Large?

Thanks....Mike

Do most NHT dealers allow you to take the speakers home to demo them in your own environment?

OK, I just got all my NHT Stuff set up. 5 - M5, U2, A1, X1, Controller and Power5. In the Evolution manual it tells me to set the Front speakers to large and all others small. In the Controller manual (i think), it tells me that the controller manages all that mess, so I do not have to manually set anything. In the sizing menus there is a pick for NHT. So do I just go with NHT for everything and not worry about Small/Medium/Large?

Thanks....Mike

That is correct, go by the Controller's manual.

If you are using the X1 for crossover functions, set mains to M5 and sub to U2 with X1. However, I don't know what you would do next. I think, maybe just run the sub out from the controller to the LFE in on the X1. Maybe John can verify this?

But regardless, if I were you, I'd just leave the X1 out of it entirely since it is redundant and unnecessary with a U2.

Do most NHT dealers allow you to take the speakers home to demo them in your own environment?

You can get on John's pair of Threes touring around the country for an in home demo, but be warned that you might not be sending them on down the line to the next person. ;) :p :cool:

Sounds like getting those could be a long wait...

I am hoping they sound really good in my room, because the search for speakers is driving me nuts! So many options to choose from...

Sounds like getting those could be a long wait...

I am hoping they sound really good in my room, because the search for speakers is driving me nuts! So many options to choose from...

Audio Advisior has a 30 day return policy. If you don't like them, then I could pick up a pair 'open box'. :)

Hopefully my local dealer will allow me to demo them in my house...I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks for all the great info, everybody. Tolstoy's War and Peace was child's play in comparison.

I really love the looks of the Classic Fours. My spouse loves them too. And she's a great spouse and I want to consider her input.

Here's the deal. A local dealer is selling a new in the box T-5 system for an insanely great price. Should I pull the trigger?

Room is 12 x 16 with one partially open wall and relatively hard surfaces. I tend to like speakers that are on the warm tubey vs. the dry and analytical sound.

I'll be driving them with an Outlaw 1070, which I love--much gutsier in the mids than the thin sounding Yamahas and Harmon Kardons I've had in the past, vocals really pop out in front of the soundstage.

Any advice would be welcome.

Thanks a lot.

Thanks for all the great info, everybody. Tolstoy's War and Peace was child's play in comparison.

I really love the looks of the Classic Fours. My spouse loves them too. And she's a great spouse and I want to consider her input.

Here's the deal. A local dealer is selling a new in the box T-5 system for an insanely great price. Should I pull the trigger?

Room is 12 x 16 with one partially open wall and relatively hard surfaces. I tend to like speakers that are on the warm tubey vs. the dry and analytical sound.

I'll be driving them with an Outlaw 1070, which I love--much gutsier in the mids than the thin sounding Yamahas and Harmon Kardons I've had in the past, vocals really pop out in front of the soundstage.

Any advice would be welcome.

Thanks a lot.

You have already answered yourself (in bold), T5s all the way!

For any T6 users (or dual U1 owners, or any Evo sub set up for that matter using 2 A1 amps for "stereo" bass) for 2 channel music, I have found a great pre-amp to get around using the X1's high pass outputs, which many feel is the only weak link in the chain, the B&K Reference 5 S2. It also includes a tuner, but that's OK because the nasty tuner section is still separated from the power amp section.

The main thing is, it has a built in fixed crossover at 80 Hz with a 12 db/octave slope and corresponding high pass outputs. The X1's high pass outputs are fixed at either 50, 80, or 110 Hz, of which 80 is by far the best choice for either M5s or M6s anyway.

Here is a link to more info:

http://www.bkcomp.com/preamp_tuner_wesay.asp

UPS just delivered my 2nd Classic 3. I hope to be in sonic bliss shortly. If they meet expectations I'll order 3 more. My room is reasonably well treated so we'll see.

UPS just delivered my 2nd Classic 3. I hope to be in sonic bliss shortly. If they meet expectations I'll order 3 more. My room is reasonably well treated so we'll see.

Let us know what you think! (and what equipment you use)

I sure will, but my review skills suck.

Help me understand the X2. Can I use one to high pass the 3s and send the LF information to stereo subs? This would allow me to run my mains large an keep my current sub as a LFE only sub.

You don't need an X2 with Threes. Fours maybe, yeah, but not Threes.

You don't need an X2 with Threes. Fours maybe, yeah, but not Threes.

How would I high pass the 3s?

From your AVR or pre-pro.

Pre-pro. Audio Refinement Pre-2DSP for now. Parasound HCA 1500 amp.

The Pre-2 has crappy bass management and it would help if I could set my mains to large. I was thinking that I could use the X2 cross over to the Parasound and Classic 3s on the high side and a pair of SVS SB12s on the low side.

Pre-pro. Audio Refinement Pre-2DSP for now. Parasound HCA 1500 amp.

The Pre-2 has crappy bass management and it would help if I could set my mains to large. I was thinking that I could use the X2 cross over to the Parasound and Classic 3s on the high side and a pair of SVS SB12s on the low side.

Yeah, you could do that. Probably a good idea since you're not happy with your current bass management.

Has anyone heard the IW4s and can tell how well they match the 3s for surrounds? I am not an in-wall fan, these might work best for my small room. Also I am a big believer of back boxes for in-walls, does NHT have recommendations for volumes?

What sub would you guys recommend for LFE only? I already have 3's+3c+4 AZ+2 U1s (1 X1, 2 A1, 2 W1). So already have stereo sub for front; the U1 system goes down to 26hz as shipped. Need a sub for LFE only that will go behind the seating area...and this is the big point...the LFE sub must go low, I mean REAL LOW. Also I'm going to set high pass for this special sub at 26hz (I think, unless there is another recommendation) so there is no overlapping with the beautiful sounding U1s.

So what sub are we talking about?


ps- yes this is a sub question, but we are talking compatability with the rest of the gear, all NHT. ;)

Has anyone tried a X2 crossover with the W1 subs?? Talking with NHT it seems the only difference between the X1 and the X2 is that the X2 has no subsonic filter/lowpass at 25hz to protect the Evolution subs. Therefore it will allow them to reach lower than the 25hz filter of the X1. The danger is of course overdriving them. Any thoughts??

James

Has anyone tried a X2 crossover with the W1 subs?? Talking with NHT it seems the only difference between the X1 and the X2 is that the X2 has no subsonic filter/lowpass at 25hz to protect the Evolution subs. Therefore it will allow them to reach lower than the 25hz filter of the X1. The danger is of course overdriving them. Any thoughts??

James

Hmmm, that's very interesting. Sounds like the X2 is basically just the "modified" X1.

I'd always heard that the X1 was only for the Evo subs and nothing else, and that conversely, the EVO subs would only work with the X1.

John, you know anything about this?

What sub would you guys recommend for LFE only? I already have 3's+3c+4 AZ+2 U1s (1 X1, 2 A1, 2 W1). So already have stereo sub for front; the U1 system goes down to 26hz as shipped. Need a sub for LFE only that will go behind the seating area...and this is the big point...the LFE sub must go low, I mean REAL LOW. Also I'm going to set high pass for this special sub at 26hz (I think, unless there is another recommendation) so there is no overlapping with the beautiful sounding U1s.

So what sub are we talking about?


ps- yes this is a sub question, but we are talking compatability with the rest of the gear, all NHT. ;)

The obvious answer is another U1 or U2 set, maybe with the 20 Hz mod (or an X2 if JElvick is correct about it).

I remember Jack H saying that they didn't recommend adding any other non Evo subs together, that if you wanted even more bass, just add another Evo sub.

In fact, I think it may have even been at the beginning of this very thread.

Hey Mark,

Talking with NHT, there is no voodoo in the X1 crossover, just the subsonic filter to limit the low bass to 25hz to protect the subs. The "EQ" function is just the Boundary Gain.

The modifed X1's were basically removing the subsonic filter at 25hz right??

James

Hey Mark,

Talking with NHT, there is no voodoo in the X1 crossover, just the subsonic filter to limit the low bass to 25hz to protect the subs. The "EQ" function is just the Boundary Gain.

The modifed X1's were basically removing the subsonic filter at 25hz right??

James

James, I don't really know what all encompassed the 20 Hz X1 mod to be honest with you. I think I've seen someone say Jack H said it was simply swapping a few transistors though.

But the X1's curve was specifically for the Evo subs, and the 20 Hz modified version would give a little extra extension at the price of some maximum output.

If what you say is correct though, I wonder if the Evo subs would be a true 2nd order bandpass sub with an X2?

Hey Mark,

Talking with NHT, there is no voodoo in the X1 crossover, just the subsonic filter to limit the low bass to 25hz to protect the subs. The "EQ" function is just the Boundary Gain.

The modifed X1's were basically removing the subsonic filter at 25hz right??

James

The natural response of the Evo subs starts to roll off higher than you would expect since they're sealed boxes.

The X1 applies EQ to prevent this rioll off and keep response flat to 26 Hz. After that, the EQ is removed and the response falls off rapidly.

Without the X1 (or the same functionality provided by the Controller), the subs won't provide much usable response at 26 Hz.

That's why you can't use the X1 with other subs and can't use the X2 with the Evo subs.

I believe the Stereophile review of the T6 showed graphs of the response of the B6 with and without the X1.

So the EQ in the X1 is actually boosting the Evo subs in the last octave to get response to 26hz?

I looked at the graphs in the Stereophile article on the T6 and that appears to be excatly what is going on. I am confusesd that NHT explained otheriwse :confused:

So anybody actually do the mod to the X1 :D

The natural response of the Evo subs starts to roll off higher than you would expect since they're sealed boxes.

The X1 applies EQ to prevent this rioll off and keep response flat to 26 Hz. After that, the EQ is removed and the response falls off rapidly.
Exactly why I would add a non evo sub for rear/LFE. I want something down there around 12-16 on up to 26. There is no reason you can't have different speakers handle these ranges. We're talking very low SUB frequencies; stuff you feel rather than hear. And before you say it, no cheesy bass shakers.

It seems there is some interest in the X1 mod. Here's the scoop straight from a previous conversation with Jack: Mod with 1 U1 = 3db loss on notes from 20-26hz; If you have 2 U1s, they play so loud already that you prob won't notice any loss. I'll post the schematic this weekend for those that are curious.

I decided against it, therefore we are discussing a possible 3rd rear sub...please add your suggestions here ---> _____________________ .

Well here is what the man himself says about that on post #102 on this thread. You might not have T6s, but in effect, you do have the exact same thing with dual U1s:

We definitely recommend to not add a subwoofer to a T6 system. It will be impossible to ge the two systems sum correctly. If you need more bass output than a T6 system has, just add a U1 or U2 subwoofer to it. This is guaranteed to add correctly.

Exactly why I would add a non evo sub for rear/LFE. I want something down there around 12-16 on up to 26. There is no reason you can't have different speakers handle these ranges. We're talking very low SUB frequencies; stuff you feel rather than hear. And before you say it, no cheesy bass shakers.

It seems there is some interest in the X1 mod. Here's the scoop straight from a previous conversation with Jack: Mod with 1 U1 = 3db loss on notes from 20-26hz; If you have 2 U1s, they play so loud already that you prob won't notice any loss. I'll post the schematic this weekend for those that are curious.

I decided against it, therefore we are discussing a possible 3rd rear sub...please add your suggestions here ---> _____________________ .

This is the same thing I have been going through. I am using a SVS 16-46 right now with my M5. But the other day I put my 2.9 back into the mix and the sealed woofer in the 2.9 sounded much better than the svs. I have thought about 2 u1 and then adding a sub for the lower LFE. But since I don't have the u1's yet I think I am just going to hold out another year and get a Velodyne DD-18. With it you also get sms room eq on the sub. Plus after everything Craigsub has said about it I think I want go wrong. I know the price can be had for around $3500.00 which if you buy 2 u1 and a monster bottom feeder sub I am sure it will come in close to this price. But if I was going to try something I think a pb12 ultra/2 would be what I would try. Even though it is ported it comes with port plugs plus you could all ways send it back if you are not happy. The other thing is deppending on your time frame SVS is coming out with a sealed sub. My other suggesten is to look at the ACI Mastreo. These are the same things I have been running over. I just don't have room for 3 subs in the long run. 2 I can do but not 3.
Allen

No way I'll replace the U1s with anything else, no way. So maybe the best approach is to work out an arrangement with the dealer for in house or in store demo of the prospects. If NHT made a bottom feeder, we wouldn't have this conversation but they don't. While the U1s speak for themselves, they aren't causing any earthquakes either. :cool:

No way I'll replace the U1s with anything else, no way. So maybe the best approach is to work out an arrangement with the dealer for in house or in store demo of the prospects. If NHT made a bottom feeder, we wouldn't have this conversation but they don't. While the U1s speak for themselves, they aren't causing any earthquakes either. :cool:


That is why I feel you will have to spend what you have invested in your U1's to get what you want. Unless you go DIY. I think Russ has and svs with his T6 maybe he will tell us how they work to getter.
Allen

I got my Classic Threes and 3C center, so here are my first impressions. I didn't notice an immediate difference from my SB2s, but after some extended listening, the Classic Threes seem to integrate with my SVS PB10-ISD a little better and they also have a much wider sweet spot. The imaging is so good that on some two channel listening, I'd swear there was a center channel. The soundstage is definitely wider and the 3C center produces more focused vocals. The Classics produce an engaging, involving sound sound like all my previous NHTs, but are still extremely accurate. They were a little larger than I anticipated, though, maybe because I was expecting them to be the same size as my SB2s.

Congrats! While I have heard some say they actually still like the SB-3 better than the new Three, I don't think anybody can deny that the new 3C is MUCH better than either the SC-1 or SC-2.

I have been enjoying my new 3s for a few days. I am not ready to give a review as they are not set up properly. But I know I like them enough that I've ordered a 3rd for the center.

You're right about the 3C, Mark. To be fair to the SB2, it was above my monitor on a stand due to the difficulty of placing a bookshelf and my 3C gets to sit at ear level directly under the screen. I am always amazed when I go to the high-end shop playing a movie and wondering why the vocals sound clear as a bell and more direct than my setup. Movies sound great now and the 3C is the speaker I'm most impressed with so far. I wonder how three of them would sound...

Yeah, good point there. I went back through to some posts by Jack H. near the beginning of this thread because I was trying to see if maybe there is a better option to match the ST-4 as a center speaker than the SC-2, and he basically said that the ONLY time a non-center speaker (like the SB-3 for example) would be better would be if it's on it's own stand out in the open like a regular L/R monitor would be, that if it were near any boundary, like the top (or bottom) of the TV, that a regular center speaker would be the best option.

...and he basically said that the ONLY time a non-center speaker (like the SB-3 for example) would be better would be if it's on it's own stand out in the open like a regular L/R monitor would be...

Yeah. Even though I had three identical SB2s before, my new speakers seem to have a more consistent timbre across the front. I'm liking these speakers more and more. It's too bad the pleasing aroma of the piano finish has faded after a few days.

Surely there's a product that brings back that new speaker smell!

That is why I feel you will have to spend what you have invested in your U1's to get what you want. Unless you go DIY. I think Russ has and svs with his T6 maybe he will tell us how they work to getter.
Allen

If you were talking about me, I don't ever use the SVS and the Evo subs together at the same time.

Just read the November Stereophile review on the Classic 3s. Good review. I quote, " I applaud NHT, who have updated the already excellent SB3 to create a smaller more elegant performer that exceeds the performance of the older speaker in every imortant parameter"

Just read the November Stereophile review on the Classic 3s. Good review. I quote, " I applaud NHT, who have updated the already excellent SB3 to create a smaller more elegant performer that exceeds the performance of the older speaker in every imortant parameter"

Now I'm wishing I got around to sending back that subscription offer.

Just read the November Stereophile review on the Classic 3s. Good review. I quote, " I applaud NHT, who have updated the already excellent SB3 to create a smaller more elegant performer that exceeds the performance of the older speaker in every imortant parameter"


I couldn't agree more. The SB-3 was (and still is) a very, very good if not great speaker, but the Three is better overall (IMO of course).

Who was the reviewer? That one guy that reviewed the SB-3s, each and every new bookie he reviews is his new favorite ever, and "the best speaker under $1000" he has ever heard. :rolleyes:

I couldn't agree more. The SB-3 was (and still is) a very, very good if not great speaker, but the Three is better overall (IMO of course).

Who was the reviewer? That one guy that reviewed the SB-3s, each and every new bookie he reviews is his new favorite ever, and "the best speaker under $1000" he has ever heard. :rolleyes:

But he is telling the honest-to-goodness truth IF he is talking about my new bookshelfs. ;)

But he is telling the honest-to-goodness truth IF he is talking about my new bookshelfs. ;)

Well, there are MANY different people with MANY different brands and models of bookshelves that can say that then. ;)

Just off the top of my head, JBL S38, Polk Rti25 and RTi4, Ala'n Petite, Paradigm Atom, JM Lab Chorus, etc., etc. :p

True, but if he keeps saying it, eventually he will get it right. ;)

Just read the November Stereophile review on the Classic 3s. Good review. I quote, " I applaud NHT, who have updated the already excellent SB3 to create a smaller more elegant performer that exceeds the performance of the older speaker in every imortant parameter"

Dang, mine hasn't showed up yet. Guess I'll have to wait a little longer.

What three speakers did he compare the 3s with?
Did it seem like a potential 'Class B' review or still just Class C?
What about JA's assessment of the measured behavior?

Interestingly, he compared them to Epos 5s which I heard in comparison a few weeks ago. They were shrill and harsh, very much unlike Epos. I couldn't hack them and I've always liked Epos until I heard these.

JA's comments about the excellence of the measured performance for $800 makes one think a Class B rating is possible. And yet, The SB3 was originally placed in D and there are some Class C members that might do a 'harumph' if the Three's pass them by.
Like the SB3 (IIRC), the sensitivity was determined to be only 83. And a -6dB point of 61? That's a bit different than -3 at 45.

Wow! I had no idea that people still read Stereopile, let alone give credence to their advertiser's products..er.."Class" ratings.

... And yet, The SB3 was originally placed in D ...

Wasn't the SB-3 Class C? :confused:

Are u trying to justify a purchase, or merely trying to determine the quality of a speaker by listening to the Stereopile pages instead of demoing the speaker? I'd really like to know why you give a rat's a__ about what Stereopile writes?

And why do you give a rat's @$$ what I (or anyone else) would think about what Stereophile writes (or any other reviewers for that matter)? :rolleyes:

Wasn't the SB-3 Class C? :confused:

Started out class D and then moved to class C in a startling display lf practicality.

Wow! I had no idea that people still read Stereopile, let alone give credence to their advertiser's products..er.."Class" ratings.

It's entertainment. Something to talk about, which may or may not reflect reality. Like sports rankings. Or political blogs.

Or movie reviews ;)

Well I had a chance to spend the weekend with my new Three's and 3C as well as my Monitor Audio RS and Focal Chorus 800v's. I used a Denon 3806 and went through various palcement configurations, movies, and music. All are great and I could live happy with any of them. In then end I felt I had a personal preference for either the Monitor Audios or Focals, both of which seemed to work better with my Denon than the power hungry NHT's not to mention they ranked higher on the WAF scale too. Cost wise they are all close enough to make it a wash. Now I have to decide on if I want to keep the NHT's for the bedroom, sell them on ebay/audiogon, or pay the shipping and restocking fee and send them back to the dealer. I think I will keep the Focal's and the Monitor RS's will be up for sale.

Just a quick update on my Classic Threes.

The third Three is in the house and being used above my display as the center. I purchased a X2 from a forum member and a pair of ULW-10s from AV123. The L&R Threes sit atop the subs which in turn is set on furniture placing the tweeters at ear level at the listening position. The L&R are being run full range and my processor redirects <80Hz from the center and surrounds to the L&R. First reflection points (except ceiling) and front wall have been treated, and bass traps are in each corner. A third sub (Mirage 12") handles the LFE. Surrounds (Mission 77DS) are still from my old system.

Several issues remain:
1. This a complex system with lots of tweakability; phase, subwoofer gain, and the ULW-10s have a single band PEQ which will cut the largest bass peak. I have set the system 'by ear', but will be employing Room EQ Wizard to tune the system over the next couple of weekends.

2. The X2 has introduced a slight hum-buzz which does not increase with volume, noticeable with your ear ~6"s away from the speakers with no music playing.

3. The center's tweeter is positioned ~2' higher than the L&R. I am considering possible solutions including changing the position of the speakers and display, or perhaps getting the Three C and repositioning the display/speakers.

4. Surrounds. If I get the Three C then I can get another 3 to complete my 5.1, if not, I am still considering the IW4s due to space limitations.

I have not had much chance for critical listening as most of my efforts have been involved with setting up the system. My initial impressions are that the Classic 3s are a great value. In my room the soundstage is totally convincing and the timbre of every instrument is accurate. I can also highly recommend the Rocket ULW-10 as a great musical match for the Threes. Bass is tuneful, tight and accurate and they are beautifully constructed.

I still don't understand why you would want the X2 with the set up you have of Threes and ULW-10s. :confused: The weak link in the chain has always been the high pass outputs from the X1/2, and you are better off getting around and avoiding it entirely if you possibly can.

Why not just use the sub/LFE out from your AVR or pre-pro and let it handle the crossover duties.

Mark does have a point. Best to be done by a processor and even better to be done by the NHT Controller.

My current processor has only 3 bass management settings. If I don't send the L&R a full range signal, I am stuck with a 120Hz crossover point on all 5 speakers. If I can send full range to the front, then I can lower the other 3 channels to 80 Hz.

From Ultimate AV: "The Pre-2DSP's method of setting bass management is unusual in that there is no setting of each speaker size as Small or Large. Instead, there's a two-stage process. First, you set the bass-crossover frequency (Bass button), variable from 80 to 120Hz in 10Hz increments. Then, the Manager button lets you select one of three bass configurations.

I found it quite surprising that the crossover frequency set with the Bass button was effective in only one of the three bass-configuration settings, and not in the way I expected. With Bass Configuration 1 and 3, regardless of how I set the crossover frequency, bass below 120Hz was sent to the subwoofer only (Configuration 1) or to all speakers (Configuration 3). Only in Bass Configuration 2 is the crossover frequency selected by the Bass button effective, and this sends frequencies below the selected frequency to the left front and right front speakers as well as to the subwoofer.

What I think of as the standard—and, in my view, highly desirable—option of sending bass below the selected crossover frequency to the subwoofer only, relieving the main speakers of having to reproduce low bass, is not available on the Pre-2DSP unless you choose Bass Configuration 1, which sets the frequency at 120Hz."

It's quirky, but sounds good.

The weak link in the chain has always been the high pass outputs from the X1/2, and you are better off getting around and avoiding it entirely if you possibly can.

Why not just use the sub/LFE out from your AVR or pre-pro and let it handle the crossover duties. Say what? Let's say you have 2 - U1s (which I do) ...what then, skip the X1?? Don't get that at all, except for the notion that it would allow the W1/A1 to go full range down to 20hz. Not sure if that is wise given that Jack has pointed out the 3db loss below 26hz. Fill in the missing information here ---> _____________________ . :)

Sigh ... I have repeatedly time and again went over with you and tried to explain in PMs how to hook up the X1 (which MUST be used with ALL Evo subs UNLESS you have the NHT Controller) without having to engage the high pass filter outputs from it to the amp(s) that drive your sats.

I have even linked on this thread a pre-amp from B&K that would still allow one to have "stereo" bass on T6s or dual U1s without having to use the X1's high pass filters.

I don't what else that I could possibly tell you that I haven't already short of actually going there and hooking it up for you. :p

Maybe stop banging your head on the wall so many times... :)

There is zero confusion on how to hook up an X1. The post was referring to your earlier post on why you would say this...

The weak link in the chain has always been the high pass outputs from the X1/2, and you are better off getting around and avoiding it entirely if you possibly can.

Why not just use the sub/LFE out from your AVR or pre-pro and let it handle the crossover duties.

Well, why would you? lol

Well if you were a bit more observant, you would have realized that post you quoted was talking about Eric using an X2 with Threes and a couple of ULW-10 subs, which you obviously failed to realize by virtue of you then turning right around and asking how and/or why to skip the X1. :rolleyes:

But hey, you go right ahead and hook up your X1 with it's high pass filters engaged if you think that's the best sound you can get from it. :p

For those considering X1s or X2s to high pass the speakers and are unable to use the pre/pro or AVR for bass management purposes, you should consider the Outlaw ICBM-1 Bass Management Module. I'm using it to connect my SACD player to my pre/pro and it works beautifully.

That is an option, but will it allow you to have true "stereo" bass if you have more than 1 W1/W2/B5/B6 and more than one A1 amp to drive them with like the B&K pre-amp I linked before on this thread will?

The way you can do it on the B&K pre is to run the pre-amp's high pass outputs, which are fixed at 80 hz (and with a 12 db/octave slope, same as the X1/2) straight into the Sats' amp(s) inputs, then run the full range L/R outputs of the B&K pre into the main L/R inputs on the X1, set the X1 to "stereo", then simply set the low pass on the X1 to 80 Hz, and run the X1's L/R sub outs to the appropriate A1's input while not hooking up the X1's high pass outputs at all.

Is the Outlaw similar with L/R high pass outputs? I understand that the bass management on the Outlaw RR2150 stereo receiver is a type of the Outlaw ICBM, but it is not for "stereo" bass though.

It's also a shame (IMO) that the Controller didn't have separate L/R bass outputs for T6/dual U1 owners. :( :mad:

It's also a shame (IMO) that the Controller didn't have separate L/R bass outputs for T6/dual U1 owners. :( :mad:

Guess they thought it wasn't a feature most of their customers were demanding, but I think most people here agree that it's an oversight on NHT's part.

That is an option, but will it allow you to have true "stereo" bass if you have more than 1 W1/W2/B5/B6 and more than one A1 amp to drive them with like the B&K pre-amp I linked before on this thread will?

The way you can do it on the B&K pre is to run the pre-amp's high pass outputs, which are fixed at 80 hz (and with a 12 db/octave slope, same as the X1/2) straight into the Sats' amp(s) inputs, then run the full range L/R outputs of the B&K pre into the main L/R inputs on the X1, set the X1 to "stereo", then simply set the low pass on the X1 to 80 Hz, and run the X1's L/R sub outs to the appropriate A1's input while not hooking up the X1's high pass outputs at all.

Is the Outlaw similar with L/R high pass outputs? I understand that the bass management on the Outlaw RR2150 stereo receiver is a type of the Outlaw ICBM, but it is not for "stereo" bass though.

It's also a shame (IMO) that the Controller didn't have separate L/R bass outputs for T6/dual U1 owners. :( :mad:

The Outlaw ICBM does allow you to use stereo bass. In the back, there is a switch that you can flip to select between mono/stereo bass mode, plus L/R subwoofer outputs. There is even a switch you can use to select between a 12 db/octave slope and a special 36 db/octave slope. For the case you stated, you can simply connect the L/R subwoofer outputs to the A1 amplifiers directly.

From the manual:

Setting the Subwoofer Mode Mono/Stereo switch

The Subwoofer Mode Mono/Stereo switch lets you use two subwoofers for a stereo effect. Although bass is
generally non-directional, some critical listeners feel that having two subwoofers set up in stereo yields
better sound than setting up multiple subwoofers and feeding them the same signal.
When the stereo switch is activated, the ICBM gathers all low bass from the right front, right surround,
and one-half of the bass from the center channel and center surround channel and places it with the
right subwoofer output. Conversely, everything from the left front, left surround, and one-half of the
center and center surround are channeled to the left subwoofer output.

Guess they thought it wasn't a feature most of their customers were demanding, but I think most people here agree that it's an oversight on NHT's part.

Yep. It looks to me like plain old common sense would have dictated that, if nothing else for the T6s alone. :(

Thanks, but ...

For the case you stated, you can simply connect the L/R subwoofer outputs to the A1 amplifiers directly.

You MUST have the X1 and it's specific curve in the path for the Evo subs to work properly. Without it, they are pretty much useless (unless you have the NHT Controller of course).

With the Outlaw ICBM, you would have to run it's L/R stereo bass outputs into the L/R stereo inputs on the X1, and then jack up the low pass filter on the X1 as high as it will possibly go to allow the Outlaw to perform all the crossover functions without any nasty double filtering from the X1.

Guess they thought it wasn't a feature most of their customers were demanding, but I think most people here agree that it's an oversight on NHT's part. Now we are on the same page... :cool: I just can't go for the controller without stereo sub connections; that & it only has only 3 hdmi in...I already have a need for 4. But it's a sweet unit no question.

3. The center's tweeter is positioned ~2' higher than the L&R. I am considering possible solutions including changing the position of the speakers and display, or perhaps getting the Three C and repositioning the display/speakers.


Just flip the center 3 upside down.

I considered that (and may still find a way) but the top is curved and doesn't have the predrilled holes for the rails.

Just flip the center 3 upside down.

That wouldn't do anything useful. In fact, it would shift the image upward as you lock more onto the upper midrange than the tweeter.

That wouldn't do anything useful. In fact, it would shift the image upward as you lock more onto the upper midrange than the tweeter.

That's debatable, but the upper midrange would still be lower in height with the speaker flipped upside down, would it not?

Not really. It would move it slightly higher. Even if you were right, it wouldn't really make any kind of substantive difference, so the point is moot.

BTW, after much stress and *way* too long off line, I was able to get my forum back up -

http://forum.adnm.com

I hope this one is a bit more secure!

If the SB-3 was rated as Stereophile Class C, and the T6 was Class A, where do you guys think the SB-3's bigger brother, the ST-4, and the T6's smaller brother, the T5, would have been rated if they had been reviewed?

Also, where do you think the Three will land, and where the Three's bigger brother, the Four, would as well?

Tis tragic that there are folks who STILL attempt to give Stereophile "class ratings" any credibility.

NHT products stand on their own. You might love them or hate them, but you shouldn't let a Stereophile "class rating" justify a purchase or define the speaker's intrinsic value or sound.

Pay the big advertising dollars, Stereophile positively reviews your product. End of story.
There's sooo much more to audio.

Why is this such an overly hyper-sensitive issue with you? The ONLY time you ever make a post on this thread is when the subject of Stereophile comes up, and then you reply within 15 minutes afterwards. Whatsamatter, did they not show enough love to your speakers and now you are holding a grudge? :p

Tis tragic that there are folks who STILL attempt to give Stereophile "class ratings" any credibility.

NHT products stand on their own. You might love them or hate them, but you shouldn't let a Stereophile "class rating" justify a purchase or define the speaker's intrinsic value or sound.

Pay the big advertising dollars, Stereophile positively reviews your product. End of story.
There's sooo much more to audio.

Whether they're credible or not, think of it like the grammies. Even if it is mostly crap that wins, when a good band actually gets some recognition, it's still great for them.

And NHT's been running one full page ad a month in Stereophile for quite some time.

Mattwardfh, I agree with both of your observations.

Mark Russ, I was not aware that my only postings on this thread were of an anti-Stereophile nature. If so, that might indeed appear as if there was something personal going on. Did you really look at my postings on this thread, or did you make this up? I will go back and do a search. And yes, I DO NOT like Stereophile magazine because I think they're dishonest. This is my own personal opinion, and you're entitled to it. :)

I do understand that it's fun to rejoice in a magazine's positive rating of one's beloved speakers, but if ratings are bought and sold, what fun is there in that?

And no, I've never bought any speakers because of a Stereophile rating, but almost did a long time ago. And I certainly wouldn't get my panties in a wad about them not ranking my speakers. I couldn't care less. I just think that newbies may be unduly influenced by magazines and I wish to do my part in helping them steer clear of such tripe and do their own homework...uninfluenced by anything other than their own two ears and true objective measurements.

Now AUDIO magazine...that was a different story. :)

... I couldn't care less. ...

If that were really true, then your last 4 or 5 posts in a row on this thread, spread over several days at that, would not have been about it, now would it? :p

Anyways, back to topic, the original question still stands about where the ST-4 and T5 would have been likely rated if they had been reviewed, as well as what the Three will likely be, and where the Four likely would as well. :cool:

That wouldn't do anything useful. In fact, it would shift the image upward as you lock more onto the upper midrange than the tweeter.

John, can the 3C go under the TV as well like the M5/6 can?

C for the ST4 and B for the T5.

C for the ST4 and B for the T5.

Well, that's what the smart money's on. But one might hope for more...

John, can the 3C go under the TV as well like the M5/6 can?

Yes

If that were really true, then your last 4 or 5 posts in a row on this thread, spread over several days at that, would not have been about it, now would it? :p

Anyways, back to topic, the original question still stands about where the ST-4 and T5 would have been likely rated if they had been reviewed, as well as what the Three will likely be, and where the Four likely would as well. :cool:

Where they'd be rated or where they'd *deserve* to be rated?

The T5/T6 are easy Class B, I think the Super Audio were always solid Class C speakers. Xd deserves a "Class A+" if they were intellectually honest about it since most Class A speakers really don't even qualify by their own standards.

As often as NHTs are "demoted" because of their price, it's *really* rare that a speaker has ever been upgraded in status from a "D" to a "C".

I'm more curious to figure out where the Three will go, unless it's been placed. It deserves "B" but will it get it?

Well, the T6 got class A as well as the XD, so it's hard to argue with that. :D :cool: ;)

The best case scenario would have been the T5 also getting into Class A (but I very seriously doubt a $2500 speaker will ever do that, no matter how good it sounds) and the ST-4 Class B, but prolly the more realistic one would be Class B for the T5 and Class C for the ST-4.

Just as best for the Three would be B (and maybe even A for the Four), but realistic will/would prolly be C for both.

I can't remember who it was that was asking about if an A1 had only 100 watts of output when driving the 12 Ohm load of a single B5 or W2 sub when going by the order of progression in it's rated power of 200 watts into 8 Ohms, 250 into 6, and 300 into 4, but I asked someone who is a lot smarter than me about power/impedance ratings, and here was his answer:

The easiest rule of thumb way to do this is to half the 6 Ohm rating (so 250W @ 6Ohm = 125W @ 12OHM). This is actually conservative as most amps don't "double down" so halving up would result in a conservative estimate.

More accurate way without testing:
Find max amps:

SQRT(300W/4Ohm): Max I = 8.7 Amps (With this being the lowest ohm rating, it should be current limited. This is sustained current, not instantaneous)

Find Max Voltage:
SQRT(200W*8Ohm) = Max V = 40 V (with the lowest ohms, this should be the max voltage the rails will generate.

Since 12Ohm is higher than 8, use the max V and find the amps 40/12= 3.3 Amps Power = V*I = 133.3 W

If you wanted to go lower than 4 Ohm, you'd use the max current and do the same thing.

So the final answer is 133.3 watts.

I can't remember who it was that was asking about if an A1 had only 100 watts of output when driving the 12 Ohm load of a single B5 or W2 sub when going by the order of progression in it's rated power of 200 watts into 8 Ohms, 250 into 6, and 300 into 4, but I asked someone who is a lot smarter than me about power/impedance ratings, and here was his answer: <snip>

It was me Mark. Here's a link to that post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8275143&highlight=U2+A1#post8275143).

Maybe one of our resident E.E.s can lend a hand here, as something seems amiss with how you extrapolated your final answer.

Well, it wasn't my final answer, but it does make complete and total sense.

Since most amps won't double up the power when the impedance is doubled (as is the case with the A1), IOW 200 watts at 8 Ohms = 400 at 4 Ohms, then in converse, when the load is cut in half, it is safe to very conservatively say at least half the power.

In the case of the A1/Outlaw monoblock, it's highest power rating is rail voltage limited on a 12 Ohm load.

While 2 A1s on the T5/U2 won't really have all that much more power than one, it will have better dynamics and slightly more headroom, as well as true stereo bass (that is, unless you are using a Controller without an X1 :mad: :( ).

Well, it wasn't my final answer, but it does make complete and total sense.

Well, you did declare: "So the final answer is 133.3 watts."

Whether it is "my" or "the", the implication seemed to be that you supported this answer.

Since most amps won't double up the power when the impedance is doubled (as is the case with the A1), IOW 200 watts at 8 Ohms = 400 at 4 Ohms, then in converse, when the load is cut in half, it is safe to very conservatively say at least half the power.

We weren't talking about "most" amps, we were talking specifically about this one amp (and the rebadged variant). We also know that the amp IS rated at: 200w @8 ohms, 250w @6 ohms and 300w @4 ohms; so it should then follow that IF the amps is capable of providing 12 ohms, than our progression leads us to conclude that it would produce 100w @12 ohms.

In the case of the A1/Outlaw monoblock, it's highest power rating is rail voltage limited on a 12 Ohm load.

While I am aware that this is a Class G (switching) amp; I'm not aware of any tests or mfg provided specs that can authoritatively tell us what loads the NHT A1/Outlaw 2200 is capable of driving; beyond the minimal 4, 6 and 8 ohm specs provided by NHT and Outlaw for this Rockford designed amp. If you can cite such a source, then please provide it; otherwise it appears that you are simply speculating about what specific voltage limitation exist at 12 ohms. We do know this amp design first uses relatively low voltage rails with high current capability, then (when pressed) switches to its high-voltage rails with limited current capability; but it has never been established that it is even rated to drive 12 ohm loads. For a pro amp (like a Crown) 12 ohm ratings are common enough, but for a consumer amp like this, it is not very likely to be rated for such loads.

While 2 A1s on the T5/U2 won't really have all that much more power than one, it will have better dynamics and slightly more headroom, as well as true stereo bass (that is, unless you are using a Controller without an X1 :mad: :( ).

For all the reasons I previously outlined on the subject, I would likely look elsewhere for larger amps to up the power to my U2s, rather than trying to use an A1 to drive loads it was never designed to accommodate. I can either get pro amps designed to drive 12 ohms loads and run one amp per W1 enclosure, or I can opt for one larger amp per pair of W1s that has the power @ 6 ohms that I am targeting. But since I have never gotten a definitive answer on exactly how much more power (than the mfg spec allows) that a W1 cabinet can safely handle, so trying to push more power (than an A1) may prove to be a pointless exercise in the end.

As for the Controller and the lack of stereo bass when running sans the X1: it remains to be seen whether the possible benefit of getting rid of a 'weak link' (the X1) outweights the debateable merit of stereo bass. Frankly, I am more excited about the possibility of eliminating the sharp corner at 27 Hz (by forgoing the X1), than I am bummed about losing stereo bass from my dual U2 systems. Peter Moncreiff made it clear that as the X1 rolls off below 27Hz, it adds another 12 db of slope; making the total bass rolloff slope 24 dB per octave; which in effect, causes the U1/U2/B5/B6 to behave like a fourth order bass system.

The fix suggested by Mr. Moncreiff (eliminate the sharp electrical filter peak at 27 Hz and the steep subsonic filter below that), very well may be addressed by the Controller; which given that the Controller is many orders more sophisticated at signal processing than is the older X1, would seem to be worthy of further investigation. Moncreiff's testing also showed the X1 was less than transparent in the signal path. In light of all the possible benefits that may come from eliminating the X1, this makes the loss of stereo bass a far less important consideration to me. YMMV.

Don't shoot the messenger because of the message, I was just trying to help. YOU originally asked the question, and I went to a source to try to find the answer.

Well, you did declare: "So the final answer is 133.3 watts." Call it whatever you want to, but in any case, if you can convincingly refute it, then by all means, feel free to do so instead of simply repeatedly questioning it. ;)

Whether it is "my" or "the", the implication seemed to be that you supported this answer. I do until someone can come up with something better to convince me otherwise. And again, if you can, then by all means, feel free to have at it! :D



We weren't talking about "most" amps, we were talking specifically about this one amp (and the rebadged variant). Which, since you apparently must have missed it, we were specifically talking about this one, but even the "most amps" classification you are obviously referring to here does apply to this one specifically anyway since it won't double up it's power from a 8 Ohm load into a 4 Ohm load, as you yourself attest to with the numbers you gave which are about to be quoted. :rolleyes: We also know that the amp IS rated at: 200w @8 ohms, 250w @6 ohms and 300w @4 ohms; so it should then follow that IF the amps is capable of providing 12 ohms, than our progression leads us to conclude that it would produce 100w @12 ohms. Maybe by your logic, which in case you don't realize it yet, actually supports the answer I was given by the fact that an 8 Ohm loads' rated power is more than half of that of a 4 Ohm load.



While I am aware that this is a Class G (switching) amp; I'm not aware of any tests or mfg provided specs that can authoritatively tell us what loads the NHT A1/Outlaw 2200 is capable of driving; beyond the minimal 4, 6 and 8 ohm specs provided by NHT and Outlaw for this Rockford designed amp. If you can cite such a source, then please provide it; otherwise it appears that you are simply speculating about what specific voltage limitation exist at 12 ohms. There is no speculation. Since a 12 Ohm load is lighter than an 8 Ohm load, then you would use the max voltage instead of the continuous current to find the amps, as was very clearly stated. :cool: We do know this amp design first uses relatively low voltage rails with high current capability, then (when pressed) switches to its high-voltage rails with limited current capability; but it has never been established that it is even rated to drive 12 ohm loads. For a pro amp (like a Crown) 12 ohm ratings are common enough, but for a consumer amp like this, it is not very likely to be rated for such loads.



For all the reasons I previously outlined on the subject, I would likely look elsewhere for larger amps to up the power to my U2s, It is obviously your prerogative to use whatever you wish rather than trying to use an A1 to drive loads it was never designed to accommodate. NHT will very happily recommend and sell you a second A1 specifically for this purpose, If you don't believe it, just ask them. :D I can either get pro amps designed to drive 12 ohms loads and run one amp per W1 enclosure, or I can opt for one larger amp per pair of W1s that has the power @ 6 ohms that I am targeting. But since I have never gotten a definitive answer on exactly how much more power (than the mfg spec allows) that a W1 cabinet can safely handle, Well as I recall without actually rechecking it first to verify it before I'm posting this, that they are rated at 250 watts "max".so trying to push more power (than an A1) may prove to be a pointless exercise in the end.

As for the Controller and the lack of stereo bass when running sans the X1: it remains to be seen whether the possible benefit of getting rid of a 'weak link' (the X1) outweights the debateable merit of stereo bass. Frankly, I am more excited about the possibility of eliminating the sharp corner at 27 Hz (by forgoing the X1), than I am bummed about losing stereo bass from my dual U2 systems. Peter Moncreiff made it clear that as the X1 rolls off below 27Hz, it adds another 12 db of slope; making the total bass rolloff slope 24 dB per octave; which in effect, causes the U1/U2/B5/B6 to behave like a fourth order bass system.

The fix suggested by Mr. Moncreiff (eliminate the sharp electrical filter peak at 27 Hz and the steep subsonic filter below that), very well may be addressed by the Controller; So certain speculation is OK in selective cases over other things which you deem to be speculation, even though the other "speculation" (as you called it) actually has some actual math backing it up? :confused: which given that the Controller is many orders more sophisticated at signal processing than is the older X1, would seem to be worthy of further investigation. Moncreiff's testing also showed the X1 was less than transparent in the signal path. In light of all the possible benefits that may come from eliminating the X1, this makes the loss of stereo bass a far less important consideration to me. YMMV.

YMMV indeed. What IS known, is that the Controller will only acknowledge one U1, or one set of B5s or U2s without the X1. Even the T6 option available on the menu without an X1 will still need a Y splitter for the dual A1 amps required for it, which means what exactly? Do you know?

For me personally, if I had any stereo bass set up on Evo subs with dual A1s, I'd rather keep that than use the Controller bass management just for the sake of doing away with the X1. As I have alluded to a few times before, there are several ways to very easily get around and avoid using the X1's high pass outputs in the signal path to the amps for the satellites.

avoid using the X1's high pass outputs in the signal path to the amps for the satellites.

Mark, is your aversion to using the X1/X2 high pass specific to NHT electronics or electronic crossovers in general?

Anything other than the noise issue that I am experiencing? Just thought I'd ask before I spend money and effort to try and resolve it.

Thanks.

Eric, it's to the X1 specifically.

I personally think that X1 does affect the signal, and even though it is very subtle at worst, the fact is that I can hear it. In fact, truth is, the X1 is prolly better than the generic crossovers in most typical AVRs, but if you're running higher end separates for stereo, as I feel the Evos deserve, then IMO you are definitely better off keeping out of the signal path.

I'm not the only one either, as many others have stated pretty much the same thing.

What was your specific problem again? Weren't you the one with the X2 and AV123 subs?

One possible fix is to use an NAD M3 integrated with its separate HP filters, then run the X1 direct to a power amp.

Still, using the Controller and giving up stereo bass is still the best way of getting max performance from the Evo stuff. I haven't run the Power2 for the subs yet, but I think that would also be my primary choice to run a pair of U1s or B6s.

One possible fix is to use an NAD M3 integrated with its separate HP filters, then run the X1 direct to a power amp.

And exactly where did you get that idea? ;) :) :cool: :D

Still, using the Controller and giving up stereo bass is still the best way of getting max performance from the Evo stuff. I haven't run the Power2 for the subs yet, but I think that would also be my primary choice to run a pair of U1s or B6s.

The Power 2 does have the exact same 8 Ohm rating as the A1 of 200 watts, so this might work. I am curious at to what it specs out to in 6 Ohm loads. Have you heard anything John?

Also, did you by chance ever find out anything about the controller no longer imposing a fourth order bandpass on the Evo subs like the X1 does?

If nothing else, if they ever do the 20 Hz mod you asked them to, it would at the very least extend the range of the true 2nd order roll off before the fourth kicks in, no?

Eric, it's to the X1 specifically.

What was your specific problem again? Weren't you the one with the X2 and AV123 subs?

That's me with Classic Threes.

The X2 has introduced a low level hum, inaudable at arm's lenght. I also have a Marchand XO I might try but the crossover point is fixed at 150 Hz (barring a resistor swap out).

Don't shoot the messenger because of the message, I was just trying to help. YOU originally asked the question, and I went to a source to try to find the answer.

No one is trying to shoot anyone here; my hope was that this could be an academic discussion. While I do appreciate the effort expended of my behalf to get better answers, I'm just not sure that you succeeded.

BTW, I do find it somewhat annoying when you reply in red, within the text of an entire quoted passage. Not only does this have the effect of making your posts hard to read and follow; it also keeps someone from just clicking on the quote button and easily addressing questions asked, or remarks of interest, on a point-by-point basis (quoting as required). Unless it is your intention to make responding to your posts more difficult, then you may want to consider following the more usual quoting conventions that most of the rest of us here use.

YMMV indeed. What IS known, is that the Controller will only acknowledge one U1, or one set of B5s or U2s without the X1. Even the T6 option available on the menu without an X1 will still need a Y splitter for the dual A1 amps required for it, which means what exactly? Do you know?

What shows up on the OSM as selectable sub options may not tell us if the DEQ is able to make adjustments for other possible NHT speaker combinations; and whether or not it can distinguish (from its microphone measurements) whether you are running (say) one or two U1 or U2 (pairs). The T6 option might be the way to go in my case, as that is essentially what I have with my M6es and dual U2es. The uses of a quality single Y-splitter for the LFE out is not likely going to be a detriment to system performance. We also shouldn't rule out that future Controller updates may bring more options for us to pick from.

For me personally, if I had any stereo bass set up on Evo subs with dual A1s, I'd rather keep that than use the Controller bass management just for the sake of doing away with the X1. As I have alluded to a few times before, there are several ways to very easily get around and avoid using the X1's high pass outputs in the signal path to the amps for the satellites.

Personally, I think the X1 is a fairly crude piece of electronics when compared to to the Controller; and finally having a way to leave this lesser quality 'link' out of the 'audio chain' was a strong selling point for me. Here is a what Peter Moncreiff said about the X1 in his review:

"But for now, the bottom line question for this review is, if you do choose to employ the X1 in the signal path to your satellites, how good does it sound as a high fidelity component (i.e. as if it were a preamp line section)? Not very good."

No one is trying to shoot anyone here; my hope was that this could be an academic discussion. While I do appreciate the effort expended of my behalf to get better answers, I'm just not sure that you succeeded. Don't worry, it won't happen again. :(

BTW, I do find it somewhat annoying when you reply in red, within the text of an entire quoted passage. Not only does this have the effect of making your posts hard to read and follow; it also keeps someone from just clicking on the quote button and easily addressing questions asked, or remarks of interest, on a point-by-point basis (quoting as required). Unless it is your intention to make responding to your posts more difficult, then you may want to consider following the more usual quoting conventions that most of the rest of us here use. Call me lazy if you want, but I'm only concerned with what is easiest and most convenient for me. :p



What shows up on the OSM as selectable sub options may not tell us if the DEQ is able to make adjustments for other possible NHT speaker combinations; and whether or not it can distinguish (from its microphone measurements) whether you are running (say) one or two U1 or U2 (pairs). The T6 option might be the way to go in my case, as that is essentially what I have with my M6es and dual U2es. The uses of a quality single Y-splitter for the LFE out is not likely going to be a detriment to system performance. We also shouldn't rule out that future Controller updates may bring more options for us to pick from. No software upgrade will ever be able to compensate for the unit only having one mono sub output, period, and I very seriously doubt that a complete rear panel re-fabrication will ever be available (but I hope I'm wrong about this).



Personally, I think the X1 is a fairly crude piece of electronics when compared to to the Controller; and finally having a way to leave this lesser quality 'link' out of the 'audio chain' was a strong selling point for me. Ahh, but one thing that lesser quality link does allow for that the superior one doesn't, is true stereo bass. :cool: Here is a what Peter Moncreiff said about the X1 in his review:

"But for now, the bottom line question for this review is, if you do choose to employ the X1 in the signal path to your satellites, how good does it sound as a high fidelity component (i.e. as if it were a preamp line section)? Not very good."

Which is EXACTLY what I have been saying all along about it being better to avoid it's high pass outputs altogether entirely if you possibly can, so you are really preaching to the Choir here in this case. ;)

That's me with Classic Threes.

The X2 has introduced a low level hum, inaudable at arm's lenght. I also have a Marchand XO I might try but the crossover point is fixed at 150 Hz (barring a resistor swap out).

Eric, if it's mainly the hum that is the main problem, I really wouldn't worry about it too much if I were you, that is, unless your listening position is within arm's length. :p

Seriously though, while I'm not familiar with the bass management on your AVR or pre-pro, but if all else fails, you could maybe look into the Outlaw ICBM that someone mentioned before instead of the X2.

Another thing is to try XLR connectors instead of RCAs if you can to see if that helps to reduce or eliminate the hum.

What are your settings on the X2, particularly master gain and LFE gain?

I just read the Stereophile review on the Three yesterday.

<Pause while b4z pats himself on the back>

And dang i'm good!

The bump in the reproduction of female vocals was something I picked up on
in my posts here August 23rd.
Still feel like the speaker is a little forward sounding(for my tastes).

But has many other good qualities.

I do think there are other areas the where the speaker could stand some improvement and that the reviewer could have pointed those out.

b4z, do you have the Classic Threes or are you just quoting the reviewer's opinion? Just curious as the only thing I have to compare my Threes against are the SB2s and SuperZeroes.

tvsurfer,

One of my posts from my 3 day audition.

I am taking the 3s back today and will audition them again when the grilles are installed.

All of the DVDs that Ithink are recorded well sound great. Much better and more resolution than the Mirages.
CDs from Dire Straits and Mark Knopfler, Keb' Mo', etc.
DVDs from Diana Krall, Sting, Boz Scaggs, ya know all the ones people use for demo
are outstanding.

The discs that are a little livelier on my Mirages can be grating on the 3s.
SACD of the Police: Outlandos d'Amor has some annoying cymbals on certain songs,etc.

I guess these speakers are just unforgiving to poor or hot recordings.


My wife says these speakers are more piercing than the Mirages.
But, like most women she likes bass.

I hesitate to even write this until I give the 3s another chance w the grilles.

I am giving them the benfit of the doubt and hope that they are not as tipped up as the SuperOnes were.

I was wonderiung if someone could shed some light on the newer versions of my equipment. I have been out of the scene for a few years and figure i had better start researching now for a newer system.

I have NHT VT 1.2 Towers, a super center, and super ones, powered by a Harmon Kardon AVR 75. I figure like everything else, these sound great, but better is right around the corner.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

You will probably hear more detail and more refinement with the new line.

Not to beat a dead horse but i found the Super Ones to have some hardness in
the treble.

But at their price point they are pretty hard to criticize.

I finally had a chance to get my Controller up and running yesterday. Listened to 1 CD and watched 2 movies last night with it.

All I can say, is damned! :eek: :D

I put it with the T5/M5/L5 based surround system since I only had one A1 amp on the B5s, thus no stereo bass to lose in the first place anyway. Interestingly, when mains were set to T5 and sub to T5 without X1 on the speaker wizard with the sub output ran from the Controller straight into the A1's main input , there was no sub output! Changed mains to M5 and left the sub setting as T5 without X1, and it worked perfectly. So apparently, the T5/T6 main speaker setting is for when you use the X1 and have it hooked up via the main L/R pre-outs. I'm also speculating here, but I'd bet that if you do go that route, you would either set sub to off (or no), or sub to T5/T6 with X1 and run the Controller's sub out to the LFE in on the X1.

The T5 IMO is an absolutely fantastic speaker system. Not only do I think it is far superior to the 2.9, but I feel it even bests the 3.3 since you can literally listen to them all day long with out ever getting listener's fatigue, and the Controller makes an already great speaker even just that much noticeably better.

To any newer generation NHT owners sitting on the fence about getting the Controller, make the move as soon as you can! You won't regret it, as it is an upgrade worth every penny, and then some! :cool:

Watched War Of The Worlds last night. Just as a safety precaution since I have no way of knowing what "setting" the Controller is running the Evo subs on the T5s, I kept the volume turned down somewhat lower than I normally would.

Sure enough, the A1 amp shut down in self protect mode not just once, but twice.

In the past, when watching WOTW (or other such movies with extra heavy bass/LFE content), I would turn both master gain and LFE gain of the X1 to the 12:00 o'clock positions, and never had any problems.

So obviously, the Controllers equivalent "gain settings" for the A1 amp on Evo subs are somewhat "hotter" than that.

Edit - This was with both bass and LFE trim levels set dead center flat at 0 db, which was the exact same way I always left my AVR I was previously using on this system when the X1 was in play.

To any newer generation NHT owners sitting on the fence about getting the Controller, make the move as soon as you can! You won't regret it, as it is an upgrade worth every penny, and then some! :cool:

Congrats on the NHT Controller! Glad it worked out great for you. I've been shopping every brand for a pre-amp/processor and never really thought about the NHT controller. It makes sense since I'm running NHTs all around and with the specialized EQ, my Classic fronts and Super Audio surrounds would probably sound even better. Just sitting on the fence waiting for all the HDMI 1.3 stuff to come out, but now you've got me thinking I should wait for whatever next-gen controller NHT releases.

I just wanted to make the 2000th post on this thread. Carry on.

<snip>Just sitting on the fence waiting for all the HDMI 1.3 stuff to come out, but now you've got me thinking I should wait for whatever next-gen controller NHT releases.

If you can bear to part with your pre/pro for a few weeks while the factory does an update, you may want to consider that the Controller was designed with provisions for a full ver. 1.3 HDMI upgrade.

...the Controller was designed with provisions for a full ver. 1.3 HDMI upgrade.

Can you elaborate on this? I'll contact NHT, but I would pick up a Controller right now if this can be confirmed. Does this mean that the Controller is ready for the new Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD and 7.1 uncompressed high-resolution audio formats via HDMI?

I've been told by Esa at Vinci Labs that this is already in progress but he had no specific date for it. It requires the HDMI board and surround board to be swapped. I think there will be other features as well.

Just out of curiosity and since it really wasn't too much trouble because they are so light, I tried out the ST-4s on the Controller just to see what kind of effect it has on them with it's built in DSP/eq.

I set them up inside of the T5s with their subs facing in. They were about 4' apart, so I put the listening chair about 6' out to keep the recommended 1.5 to 1 spacing, and the TV stand between them is VERY open, so much so that there was very little if any boundary interference from it on the subs.

First I listened to them for a while with a NAD C160 pre-amp, then the Controller in 2 channel stereo mode, but in both cases they had the same source (NAD C542 CD player) and power amp (Adcom GFA-5500 200 watt X 2 at 8 Ohms, which is exactly how much is recommended by NHT for the ST-4s) on both tests. I used Ozzy's No More Tears CD (which has some great bass lines and even some acoustic guitar) and an Aerosmith Greatest Hits type of CD.

To change over, it simply involved switching 2 pairs of cables, and reconfiguring the Controller's Speaker Wizard menu to mains as Super Audio ST-4s, and sub to off (none).

IMO, the ST-4s definitely sounded subtly, but noticeably better with the NHT pre-amp than with the NAD. Now don't get me wrong here, I'm not going to tell you that it magically made such a dramatic night and day kind of difference as to make the ST-4s now sound as good or better than the T5s, but there was noticeable improvement, particularly in the bass. It no longer sounded as loose and bloated on the ST-4s as it did before without the Controller. In fact, it almost sounded sealed with the Controller, but not quite. I suspect this is similar to the difference John heard when trying this with a pair of Fours that he mentioned before, either on this thread or the one in the amp/receiver forum about the NHT electronics.

I was also quickly reminded while listening to Dude Looks Like A Lady by Aerosmith how much brighter and harsher the ST-4's top end can sound when compared to the M5's though. Not knocking the ST-4, as I feel it was a very solid contender in it's price range when it was out, but it definitely isn't a T5/T6.

However, bottom line, the Controller does make an improvement in the sound of them IMO.

In fact, knowing what I do now and if I were starting from scratch, I would get the Controller and a Power5 to go with 2 pairs of Fours as mains and surrounds, a 3C center, and a Twelve sub for movies, and then use the Controller's Zone 2 outputs for a pair of Xds for 2 channel music. I can't remember who, but earlier on this thread somebody talked about getting Fours as mains and surrounds in a 5.0 system with no sub, and at first I personally didn't like that idea, but with the Controller/Power5 combo (especially since the Power5 is rated at 200 watts at 8 Ohms, so it should be even a little more than that into the Four's 6 Ohm load), now I do like that idea very much after hearing what the Controller did for the ST-4s, and how you do have to cut the bass/LFE trim back on the Controller for bass heavy movies so it won't shut down the A1 amp on Evo subs.

Or, maybe 3 pairs of Threes and a 3C center with four different W1/A1 sub/amp combos (one for the mid-point on each wall like in the Harman white-paper), etc., etc. The possibilities are virtually limitless as to the combos you can put together on this system.

I just wanted to make the 2000th post on this thread. Carry on.

Then why does it say 2001? :p

Congrats on the NHT Controller! Glad it worked out great for you. I've been shopping every brand for a pre-amp/processor and never really thought about the NHT controller. It makes sense since I'm running NHTs all around and with the specialized EQ, my Classic fronts and Super Audio surrounds would probably sound even better. Just sitting on the fence waiting for all the HDMI 1.3 stuff to come out, but now you've got me thinking I should wait for whatever next-gen controller NHT releases.

Thanks!

IMO, it's a no-brainer to get it, just for the NHT speaker DSP/eq alone, not to even mention that the HDMI 1.3 will all be upgradable when the time is right.

Plus, since you do have mismatched surrounds from your mains, it will be able to tie them together as good as possible.

I think there will be other features as well.

Such as?

I hope that it might be some of our ideas here, like older Music and VT series updates, Evo sub 20 Hz mod., etc.

If I told you, I'd have to kill you :D

Ahh, you're just sore cause you didn't get the 2000th post. :p

Zaracsan has the 2001st post! You have to count backwards......

Plus, since you do have mismatched surrounds from your mains, it will be able to tie them together as good as possible.

You know, the Classic Threes and my surround SB2s blend together extremely well. If you'll recall in my initial review, I stated that there wasn't an immediate difference in sound quality, but with more listening, the wider soundstage and more accurate imaging became more apparent.

Listening to the Blue Man group DVD-Audio disc, the voices and sounds swirling around were absolutely seamless. When my SB2s were the mains and the SuperZeros were surrounds, the mismatch in timbre was more apparent.

I agree to an extent. I don't think that matching surrounds is nearly as critical as matching the center to the mains, but, with that said, the Controller will still tie together mismatched series of newer NHT speakers in a surround system better than not using it as opposed to ANY other pre-pro or AVR on the market.

Theoretically, you could put together a system on the Controller with XD mains, a Classic 3C center, Evolution L5 side surrounds, and Super Audio SB-3 rear surrounds, and I'd bet it would still sound great. :p

Hey, who had the bypass procedure to get 20Hz out of the NHT subs? john@adnm.com I'd e-mail Jack, but then I'd have to wait for 6 months.....

Mark Russ: Agreed. I'm sure an NHT Controller will get more out of my speakers than just about anything out there. I'm definitely leaning this direction.

Hey, who had the bypass procedure to get 20Hz out of the NHT subs? john@adnm.com I'd e-mail Jack, but then I'd have to wait for 6 months.....


I believe that was B2R wasn't it?

Mark Russ: Agreed. I'm sure an NHT Controller will get more out of my speakers than just about anything out there. I'm definitely leaning this direction.

Yepper! What sub(s) do you have?

Yepper! What sub(s) do you have?

SVS PB10-ISD so I need a preamp with good bass management, which I think the Controller does.