If anyone doesn't understand why I want to judge for myself, just take a look at the argument AVS members are having about seeing SDE on the Sanyo Z4 that they just saw at a projector shootout. No one can agree on if there was SDE present or not - these are supposing unbiased and knowledgeable projector enthusiasts. (See the “Colorado Front Projection/Home Theater Expo Nov. 5th and 6th - LOCATION DECIDED” Thread - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=589990&page=3&pp=30)

I don't think there will be difference between the production unit and pre-production unit in the area of SDE. I guess the operation of Dynamic Iris may be different. The production unit has arrived HK. I will go to have a look this afternoon.

I don't think VB is a problem for HS50/60. I've checked the VB issue at 4 numbers of HS50 and one HS60 using RGB and 30-100IRE testing patterns. All of them show almost free of VB (only very very minor at 30-40IRE).

According to CKL's report, the HS60 won't sync @ 48Hz, but ok at 50 & 60Hz.......I guess you are after 50Hz

How am I suppose to set it to 50 n 60HZ if I am using a dvd PLAYER ?

How am I suppose to set it to 50 n 60HZ if I am using a dvd PLAYER ?

CKL.................care to answer this one? :)


BTW CKL, looking forward to hearing if the iris action is improved............do tell! :D

CKL:

on the issue of SDE, at 1.8 viewing distance, I think only AE900 or DLP can do no SDE.

How am I suppose to set it to 50 n 60HZ if I am using a dvd PLAYER ?


When you play PAL disc, 7600 will output 50Hz.
When you play NTSC disc, 7600 will output 60Hz.
When you set the TV system at 7600 to PAL, the on screen picture and menu is 50Hz if the DVD has not started to play.
You don't need to set HS60 or 7600 to 50Hz or 60Hz. They will change the frequency automatically according to the PAL or NTSC discs.

I've attended Sony Bravia HomeNet Expo. It shows the new Bravia LCDTV, Qualia rear and front projectors, HS60 and VW-100. HS60 is shown in a open booth where the lighting control is not good. They just play DVD continuely. I can't verify if the behavior of its dynamic iris is different from the one I tested.

After ac388 solve the communication problem between HS60 and 7600, I will go to help him fine tune his setup. I will report the dynamic iris issue later.

At 1.8x viewing distance, the SDE is invisible at D5 720P LCD and 720P DLP but it is visible at D4 720P LCD, Sony 720P LCD and 576P DLP.

The dealer did bring in their demo unit(which I saw working at the shop) tonight n still no communication with my Marantz DVD player. So, the problem is probably with the 7600. I have just phoned Mr. Lam of Marantz n they agree to send me another 7600 on Wednesday to try it out.

I will hold my breath for 2 more days. If it still does not work, I just wonder who's fault is it while money was already out from my pocket !!!


:mad: :mad: :mad:

Different people have various sensitivity and tolerance to the SDE. You better watch it at the same distance ratio in dealer's showroom.

If anyone can see SDE at 1.8x, then I will also see it sooner or later :( That will probably be a deal-breaker for me, definately at 50-100% higher price than the D5 alternatives.

SDE At 1.5x or less works for me though....

CKL,

Is the HS60 comparable to D4 in terms of SDE? I have a z2 with a panamorph and SDE at 1.4X is not an issue. I'm considering the HS60 because of the black levels. I'm on the power buy for the Ruby my girl friend will dis-own me if I follow through with that buy.

I don't think I've ever talked to anyone that has had a VB issue with the HS-51. Are you saying that your PJ has it? I have owned two HS-51's and neither showed even the slightest trace of it.

I just remembered that the Draper M2500 is known to have the vertical "streaks".
That may be VB that I thought I was seeing since I have the M1300. I plan on trying a diff. screen eventually so that will be the test.

I'm on the power buy for the Ruby my girl friend will dis-own me if I follow through with that buy.


so she wants the money to go to a ring? Selfish :D

guy:

You needn't wait for a new screen to test it. While viewing a test pattern or scene with the streaks clearly visible, use the lens shift to move the image. If the streaks move with the image, it's VB. If they remain in place, it's the screen.

Pip

CKL,

Is the HS60 comparable to D4 in terms of SDE? I have a z2 with a panamorph and SDE at 1.4X is not an issue. I'm considering the HS60 because of the black levels. I'm on the power buy for the Ruby my girl friend will dis-own me if I follow through with that buy.


SDE of HS60 is slightly more obvious than that of D4 720P LCD.

CKL,

Have you seen the Mitsubishi HC3000? I think I read you were getting a unit early this week>

Just receive one today. First impression - good color rendering, deep black, high contrast and bright enough. I can get 1:1 mapping at 1280x768 but not 1280x720. There are choice of screen size and aspect ratio. I need to try different combinations with 720P to verify if it really can't prefectly map the pixels.

SDE of HS60 is slightly more obvious than that of D4 720P LCD.


Wow I had no idea sony was so far behind in the SDE department. I thought it was better then D4. Hmm this changes things. Aslo, what is the ETA of this unit?

Hi CKL,

I finally tricked the combo to connect to play last night. It is very strange that I have to set the 7600 to 480P before turning the projector on, then I can switch to 720P or 1080i without problem. If I initially set the 7600 at 720P or 1080i, the Sony just cannot log on. I don't think it is a cable problem because I did try other brand of HDMI/HDMI cable n HDMI/DVI adaptors.

Once the unit warm up n on Standard mode, n before calibration, the picture is very sharp, free of noise, good contrast n correct color temp. Very very minor case of VB when watching some shot with light to mid grey background. Screendoor was not apparent, maybe it is because I am sitting 142" away from a 78" width screen, which meets the 1.8x ratio.

Can you educate me a bit on some settings. Should I leave the bulb on low or high mode, since I am using a 90" 16x9 O.S. Pure Matt 2 plus screen(0.8 gain) sitting 142" away, in a light-controlled room. As on the 7600, should I set the HDMI output to RGB Normal, RGB Extended, 4:2:2 or 4:4:4. Thanks in advance.

Meanwhile, the other 7600 unit will be arriving from Marantz later today, n hope this will fix it, since I don't want to set the player back to 480P everytime after I finish watching.

:) :) :)

ac388,
I am from HK too. I too am thinking about buying the HS60 :) Hope your set up is smooth!!

1) Set both your HS60 & 7600 to RGB extended, so the grayscale on each is consistent within the 0-255 range. HDMI RGB standard is in a limited range (16-235). But if 7600 don't have this option to change, then keep HS60 to RGB standard. The key is to keep both units in the same RGB range.
2) I am new to the 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 terminology as well. But after reading the following
http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/Tech-Corner/f-RH-4.2.2-07.10.02.shtml
I have a better understanding. 4:4:4 sounds like the solution for playing DVD with 7600, but do you watch TV too? .... I guess for more understanding on this setting, you should look into the HS50/51 thread......... BTW ENJOY!

Hi phatass,

Thanks for your advice. It is nice to know more n more HK fans get on this site, since I found it much more interesting than the local sites.

I used the HIVI cast disc n see no difference on Contrast n Black level, when switching between RGB Normal n RGB extended.

The 4:2:2 is suppose for 10-bit transmission according to the 7600 manual, but the HS60 claims to process their video signal at 12-bit. So, this becomes a bit confuse for me.

All in all, what a sharp n clean picture !!!

Both RGB Normal and Extend can output blacker than black (<16). They have different black level. After adjusting the proper white and black level, use either one is OK.

Your OS PM-II has only 0.8 gain. I suggest you to use high lamp mode at HS60. Try the settings of 30-90IRE D65 at my review that can provide more luminance for your setup.

Please test HS60 if it has the blinking effect incurred by its Auto Dynamic Iris, by turning on the subtitle at dark movie and using the concert DVD with spotted artist and dark background.

Thanks for your tip. Will try your setting tonight.

Also, I'll test the Iris with the second last chapter of 'Batman begins' with subtitle, hope it is dark enough. Do you mean the picture will flash-in n out when I turn on n off the subtitle at the same time ?

When I tested the pre-production unit, the bright subtitles at dark movie interrupted the dynamic iris to make picture be bright and dark frequently.

Have just tried your setting, but the picture is wash out, maybe the brightness is too high n does not fit my setup. Also, do I have to follow the setting of Gamma Correction n Color Temp. too ?

Will test the Iris later tonight after dinner. I assume it should be in the AUTO position.

DVD players normally has different brightness level. You have to adjust your own setting.

Have just played the clip from 'U571' where the U.S. crewman were inside the German sub after they are bombed. While they are discussing, only the backup light is on, so the background is very dim . However, I cannot see the picture blink when the subtitle come on n off.

I was wondering if the blinking effect will be different from different lamp modes? Or it has been improved from preproduction?

Hi CKL,

I did use your D65 setting tonight again but with my own calibration of Contrast n Brightness thru HIVI Cast. The color looks kind of COOL at first, as compare to the Standard mode. But after watching it for a while, the skin tone is more natural n not as yellow as the Standard mode.

Afterall, can I said the D65 is more or less the same as your setting for all HS60, but the Contrast n Brightness will vary because of different screen n room light setting.

Thanks again for your tip.

Well, the color temp of your OS screen is different from my Studiotek. Studiotek is warmer than OS screen. So I guess your existing color temp is between 7000-7500K. It is a bit blueish. The contrast and brightness is different because of the various output level from DVD player.

Hi CKL,

Can you give me a tip how to bring down the Cool(or blueish) a bit from your posted setting, since I know you come across the O.S. screen quite a lot. Thanks.

Hi CKL,

I'm thinking of updating my VW-10HT to the HS60. However I'm concerned about the problem of the automatic iris and subtitles. Have you noticed such problem in the HS50/51?

I live in The US, and many dealers are discounting the HS51. If the HS51 does not have the iris problem, it may be a better choice for me, especially since I need to replace the lamp in the 10HT soon, and it may be a while before the HS60 is available here.

Aside from the iris problem, do you think the HS60 is so much better than the HS51 to be worth the wait?

I suppose the iris problem will go away if it’s set to the Fixed mode (on or off). Am I right?

Thanks for your help

Hi ac388,

Don't waste anyone any time! Give CKL a call and he will do a perfect ColorFacts calibration for you in a few hours! :D

regards,

Li On

Hi CKL,

I'm thinking of updating my VW-10HT to the HS60. However I'm concerned about the problem of the automatic iris and subtitles. Have you noticed such problem in the HS50/51?

I live in The US, and many dealers are discounting the HS51. If the HS51 does not have the iris problem, it may be a better choice for me, especially since I need to replace the lamp in the 10HT soon, and it may be a while before the HS60 is available here.

Aside from the iris problem, do you think the HS60 is so much better than the HS51 to be worth the wait?

I suppose the iris problem will go away if it’s set to the Fixed mode (on or off). Am I right?

Thanks for your help

I have a HS-51 in my room and I watch a lot of foreign films with subtitles, never seen an iris problem with them. In fact, I hardly ever see an issue with the iris at all. I noticed the iris on the AE-900 quite a bit though, especially when transitioning to a bright scene.

The only time I've seen an iris transition in real world material with the HS51 was when a really bright scene cuts to a really dark one and stays there for awhile. You'll see the iris step down a few times and then stop. It is hardly distracting though unless you are really looking for it.

Thanks, Kris, for your tip.

I have a HS-51 in my room and I watch a lot of foreign films with subtitles, never seen an iris problem with them. In fact, I hardly ever see an issue with the iris at all. I noticed the iris on the AE-900 quite a bit though, especially when transitioning to a bright scene.

The only time I've seen an iris transition in real world material with the HS51 was when a really bright scene cuts to a really dark one and stays there for awhile. You'll see the iris step down a few times and then stop. It is hardly distracting though unless you are really looking for it.

I completely agree with everything said about the Sony, haven't seen the Panasonic. I just wish the contrast was double :p

The behaviour of dynamic iris at HS50 and HS60 are different. When the luminance level drop to 0-10IRE, HS50 cuts it gradually (need to wait for several seconds to let the luminance level drop to the minimum) while HS60 cuts the level immediately to the minimum. Please be reminded the review is based on a pre-production unit. I hope
Sony has solved the subtitile problem at the proudction unit.

ac388,

Different setup needs different settings. It is impossible for me to tell you the settings for D65 by guess. When your HS60 has run for 50hrs, please inform me to do a calibration for you.

Hi CKL,

Noted with thanks.

Thanks, CKL, for your comment on the dynamic iris action of HS50 and HS60.

From what you've said, it appears that the dynamic iris in the HS50 is not as aggressive as the HS60, and thus would be less noticeable in action. Am I correct in assuming this?

When the luminance level drop to 0-10IRE, HS50 cuts it gradually (need to wait for several seconds to let the luminance level drop to the minimum) while HS60 cuts the level immediately to the minimum.

How fast is immediately? :)

i rang sony in sydney today and they said the new hs60s are here but the bloke i spoke to didn't think they had made any changes to the DI

hope to see one in action in couple of days. what would be lthe best dvd to see how bad the di reacts to light changes. any thoughts thanks

[Intro (a little off-topic, but this is my first post, so I thought I should present myself...) :)

First of all: hello to all AVS members! I've been a reader of these forums for more than a year and have learned A LOT reading them, so thank you all for that! This is my first post here, and I hope that I too can contribute positively to this community...

I've bought less than a week ago an HS50, because the price has come down, the HS60 will probably take a while to come here (Portugal), probably be priced higher than the HS50 is now, and there's always something better "coming soon", so I decided to go ahead and start watching some movies, big-screen-style. :) I've auditioned a lot of pjs before deciding myself with the HS50. Although not perfect (nothing is, but I'm a bit of a perfectionist, as a lot of guys here), it was the best pj that I saw for my budget (I also like DLP's a lot, btw, but me and my girlfriend are very sensitive to the rainbow-effect...).

Intro end]

Going on-topic and speaking about the iris in the HS60 and the effect CLK mentions, there are some settings in the HS50/51 factory menus that control the speed (or reaction to content?) of the iris (both for opening and closing). AFAIK, this settings are not the same in all HS50/51’s, which means they're probably calibrated in the factory. Concerning the closing of the iris, some users tried changing the corresponding value and were able to get a “speedier” (or harder?) closing iris, but this reproduced the effect CLK mentions (hyper-active iris), that is, the iris would become too sensitive to brightness variations and its presence too visible. I wonder if this setting isn't the same in the HS60, and if CLK's preview unit could have had this setting with an inadequate value, different from the ac388’s one? It's just an idea that occurred to me. Hope it helps…

Cheers.

Going on-topic and speaking about the iris in the HS60 and the effect CLK mentions, there are some settings in the HS50/51 factory menus that control the speed (or reaction to content?) of the iris (both for opening and closing). AFAIK, this settings are not the same in all HS50/51’s, which means they're probably calibrated in the factory. Concerning the closing of the iris, some users tried changing the corresponding value and were able to get a “speedier” (or harder?) closing iris, but this reproduced the effect CLK mentions (hyper-active iris), that is, the iris would become too sensitive to brightness variations and its presence too visible. I wonder if this setting isn't the same in the HS60, and if CLK's preview unit could have had this setting with an inadequate value, different from the ac388’s one? It's just an idea that occurred to me. Hope it helps…

Cheers.

So, to avoid this flickering, the iris must be set to "slower" speed. But then how does the projector cope with a very dark scene that instantly changes to a bright scene for a few seconds and then back to a dark scene again?

Conor

Thanks, CKL, for your comment on the dynamic iris action of HS50 and HS60.

From what you've said, it appears that the dynamic iris in the HS50 is not as aggressive as the HS60, and thus would be less noticeable in action. Am I correct in assuming this?


Yes, you can have such assumption. Regarding the blinking effect when subtitles are presented, I think it can be solved by limiting the detective area at the centre position for the response of dynamic iris.

Hi CKL,

Since you have seen the Mit HC3000 now, can you draw a quick comparison between that n HS60. Thanks.

Hi ac388,

HS60's advantages: More vibrant color, cleaner picture, lower black level by DI.

HC3000 advantages: better ANSI contrast (smoother contrast comparing the tricky DI behaviour), less SDE, brighter and cheaper.

I don't mean HC3000 has high video noise which is much less than those D5 LCD. But HS60 is one of the best at this area. HS60 holds the edge in the video noise.

PS: I will reply your email later.

[Intro (a little off-topic, but this is my first post, so I thought I should present myself...) :)

First of all: hello to all AVS members! I've been a reader of these forums for more than a year and have learned A LOT reading them, so thank you all for that! This is my first post here, and I hope that I too can contribute positively to this community...

I've bought less than a week ago an HS50, because the price has come down, the HS60 will probably take a while to come here (Portugal), probably be priced higher than the HS50 is now, and there's always something better "coming soon", so I decided to go ahead and start watching some movies, big-screen-style. :) I've auditioned a lot of pjs before deciding myself with the HS50. Although not perfect (nothing is, but I'm a bit of a perfectionist, as a lot of guys here), it was the best pj that I saw for my budget (I also like DLP's a lot, btw, but me and my girlfriend are very sensitive to the rainbow-effect...).

Intro end]

Going on-topic and speaking about the iris in the HS60 and the effect CLK mentions, there are some settings in the HS50/51 factory menus that control the speed (or reaction to content?) of the iris (both for opening and closing). AFAIK, this settings are not the same in all HS50/51’s, which means they're probably calibrated in the factory. Concerning the closing of the iris, some users tried changing the corresponding value and were able to get a “speedier” (or harder?) closing iris, but this reproduced the effect CLK mentions (hyper-active iris), that is, the iris would become too sensitive to brightness variations and its presence too visible. I wonder if this setting isn't the same in the HS60, and if CLK's preview unit could have had this setting with an inadequate value, different from the ac388’s one? It's just an idea that occurred to me. Hope it helps…

Cheers.


Welcome to AVS.

I have had the HS-51 for almost a year, and it has been a real treat for me and the family.

There is always something new coming. Once you make the leap, you get the chance to learn more about your own viewing habits and what you like or dislike with your projector. This education will help when you are ready for your next projector.

I have now owned a couple of projectrs, the HS-51 is the best balance of features I have found, since I developed problems with headaches from DLP.

I don't thimk the HS-60 is going to be a big enough increase in quality to make me upgrade.

However, The Sony RUBY is a different story. If I can wait a little while or find a deal on a RUBY, I may just be willing to make the leap and even spend a little more money.

I think you are going to enjoy the HS-50. Be sure to ready thru the HS-50/HS-51 thread, as there are numerous helpful posts. I have found the various posts on calibrating the projector to be the most helpful.

Again, welcome to the forum.

cheers

I don't mean HC3000 has high video noise which is much less than those D5 LCD. But HS60 is one of the best at this area. HS60 holds the edge in the video noise.

Consider that the HC3000 IS a 1-chip DLP and the HS60 is one of the cleanest LCD, IMO the HC3000 video noise level already beat all other 1-chip DLPs.

regards,

Li On

Hi ac388,

HS60's advantages: More vibrant color, cleaner picture, lower black level by DI.

HC3000 advantages: better ANSI contrast (smoother contrast comparing the tricky DI behaviour), less SDE, brighter and cheaper.

I don't mean HC3000 has high video noise which is much less than those D5 LCD. But HS60 is one of the best at this area. HS60 holds the edge in the video noise.

PS: I will reply your email later.

Thanks for your comment n await your email.

If HS60 is not bright enough while using my OS screen, what screen do you suggest me to look into. Thanks.

Stewart Studtiotek is good for HS60.

Noted Studiotek n will check into that. Why do the HS60 as well as the Ruby only have a 800ANSI, while a lot other new LCD n DLP projectors are over 1,000. Is it once ANSI is too high, they cannot keep a good black level.

So, to avoid this flickering, the iris must be set to "slower" speed. But then how does the projector cope with a very dark scene that instantly changes to a bright scene for a few seconds and then back to a dark scene again?

I know I shouldn't be quoting myself :rolleyes:, but...how does the pj cope with very quickly going from very dark scenes to very bright scenes. Is the change in the iris gradual or fairly instantanious?

Thanks

Noted Studiotek n will check into that. Why do the HS60 as well as the Ruby only have a 800ANSI, while a lot other new LCD n DLP projectors are over 1,000. Is it once ANSI is too high, they cannot keep a good black level.

That's a great question.

I would agree with your conclusion. Once you have a projector which is too bright, your only recourse is filtering to bring the total output and darkest black level down to a good level.

However, you are totally lost once a projector is too dim. Erring on the side of brighter would offer the most end user flexibility.

It seems folks are running screens sizes in the 80-90" range or pushing it out to 120". This is perhaps due to the average room size most folks have for the HT. Sure there are folks which alternate sizes, but it seems those are the ranges I have seen most folks mention.

From my own projector testing on my 82" screen, while the HS-51 is perfect, a 7205 blew me out of the room without a ND2 filter inplace, but the filter worked.

I'd think the DI should change instantaneously between frames, but gradually within a frame or scene.

Does the algorithm look ahead a frame or two to pre-detect scene changes?

Bytehoven: Thanks for the welcome message and for the tips! I've actually followed closely the HS50/51 threads (official and tweaking) from their beginning (when I was deciding which projector to choose), and I've just started to do some fine-tuning of my own, along with actually watching some movies, which is the most important thing (but some people seem to forget it ;)). I like knowing about things (even if just for the sake of knowing), so I've researched a lot on all projection technologies and their peculiarities, being LCD, DLP, LCoS, CRT or even film! :p This helped me to better understand some of the advantages and limitations of each technology.
About the RUBY, you're right, it seems to be a fantastic upgrade for the HS50/51, although the price is still a bit high (I could afford it, fortunately, but cannot justify it to myself... at least not yet! ;)). Also, we may see some evolutions in the coming months, with Sony’s "Bi:NA" panels (or Epson's equivalent). It's really exciting to see the (r)evolution that has been happening in this area in the last years!

---

On the subject of iris speed, what I've found is that the iris in the HS50 is quicker to react going from dark to bright than vice-versa. In the first case, my eyes can barely detect it (I must be really looking for it), but on the second case, it's just a little bit more obvious sometimes, especially if it's a passage from a really bright scene to a really dark one. It seems that the iris starts to close quickly, but takes longer to close its last steps (each one takes longer). I think (just guessing), that this iris implementation could be related to the human iris behavior - we can adapt quicker to a bright light, for example, when you enter a dark room and turn on the lights, but take longer to see in the dark after turning the lights off. If the iris closed too quickly, the reduced brightness would be too visible, especially in the whites, which would look too grey and dim, but won't if you let your eyes adapt. Again, I'm just guessing here. Anyway, I think this is the limitation that we must have when the panels themselves don't really have this dynamic range. There are no miracles, and no perfect technology.

Anyway, don't get me misunderstood: the effect is perceptible if you do this with two still images (I tested this using a PC and a picture viewer), but only barely noticeable in a film ("real world” situation), and even then, only on some specific scenes. Most of the time, I don’t ever detect it. For me, DLP rainbows are much, much more frequent and much more “intrusive”. Also, there's the factory parameter that I mentioned which is not equal in all HS50/51's, and as I've read mixed reports about the perception on the iris auto-adjustments, I think this could be tweaked a bit in order to minimize one’s perception of the effect.

As always, I must give the most important advice I’ve seen here, time and again: there’s nothing like go seeing for yourself before you buy. Only your eyes can be the judge.

Cheers,
Dave.

... there's the factory parameter that I mentioned which is not equal in all HS50/51's, and as I've read mixed reports about the perception on the iris auto-adjustments, I think this could be tweaked a bit in order to minimize one’s perception of the effect..

Cheers,
Dave.

What adjustment did you mean?

I have posted about a service menu adjustment which address the threshold of how the iris function is triggered by scene luminance levels.

However, I did not ever find a control which address the speed/rate of the iris function.

But I wonder if you have found another control?

Can you walk me thru the 'service menu adjustment' again ? Since I only remember 'enter,enter, up, down, enter', but at what position should I hit the first 'enter'. After I get into the service menu, which item should be selected for the Iris control n what other adjustment I should be awared of.

Thanks in advance.

Can you walk me thru the 'service menu adjustment' again ? Since I only remember 'enter,enter, up, down, enter', but at what position should I hit the first 'enter'. After I get into the service menu, which item should be selected for the Iris control n what other adjustment I should be awared of.

Thanks in advance.

OK...

There is a different service menu command in order to get into the FACTORY mode, where you can access the additional menus.

From a normal position, ie menus not opened press:

ENTER ENTER <- ENTER

You get a question: Do you want to enter Factory mode? YES or NO

Once you select YES, then hit the MENU button. You will now see another menu below W/B.

Inside this menu, a whole bunch of additional menus pop up. Go to OTHER

Use the UP/DOWN keys to toggle thru items.

The Iris function is controled by follwoing and I have indicated how I have mine set.

35) Iris/ Open Reg: 40
36) Iris/Close Reg: 205

I found playing with the Iris/Close Reg had the greatest impact on how the iris reacted to program scene luminance values. 205 seemed to be the best setting for me, although I believe 200 might have been the original factory setting. I found setting mine to 200, made the darkest blacks in very dark scenes step up in bright ness a little. I found there was benefit running it at up to 215, but I don't recall at the moment what scene types benefited.

All of the other menus and their functions seem to go way beyond anything worth tinkering.

One of these days maybe someone will be able to contribute some additional knowledge on these other menus. The Sony service manuals are worthless.

I have a feeling there is potential to affect changes on the way the projector adjusts gamma & video levels while under auto iris, but I haven't experimented.

Be careful once you go into these next level of menues. If you do decide to tinker, make notes in advance of ALL of the factory settings, just in case you make any mistakes.

Thanks for info n I will try it tonight. Of course, I will write down all data if I decide to make a change.

However, I am asking the service menu out of curiosity. So far, I am very happy with the HS60. It really surprised me how clean the picture is when it teams up with the Marantz 7600 thru HDMI. I am starting to watch some dvd I watched before, n find the picture is so much sharper, no VB , better contrast n most important of all--video noise level is very very low, than my old Panny AE500. The picture is just as smooth as I have seen on that Marantz 13S1.

Yes, you can have such assumption. Regarding the blinking effect when subtitles are presented, I think it can be solved by limiting the detective area at the centre position for the response of dynamic iris.

Thanks,CKL, for your reply.

Thanks for info n I will try it tonight. Of course, I will write down all data if I decide to make a change.

However, I am asking the service menu out of curiosity. So far, I am very happy with the HS60. It really surprised me how clean the picture is when it teams up with the Marantz 7600 thru HDMI. I am starting to watch some dvd I watched before, n find the picture is so much sharper, no VB , better contrast n most important of all--video noise level is very very low, than my old Panny AE500. The picture is just as smooth as I have seen on that Marantz 13S1.


ac388...

Please let us know if the HS51 service menu remote commands work on the HS60. These (2) sets of commands mentioned work with other HS series projectors, so I would assume they might still be valid. It would be good to know.

cheers

What adjustment did you mean?

I have posted about a service menu adjustment which address the threshold of how the iris function is triggered by scene luminance levels.

However, I did not ever find a control which address the speed/rate of the iris function.

But I wonder if you have found another control?

You're probably right! The settings are the one's you mentioned:
35) Iris/ Open Reg
and
36) Iris/Close Reg

Some posts in the official HS50/51 thread describe this as speed or throttle of the iris, but others mention threshold (actually, I think you're the one that mentioned threshold). You may be closer to the truth, I don't know - I haven't yet had the time to "mess up" with the factory settings (must take note of them before trying anything, in case things don't go well and I make a mistake), so I cannot comment by self-experience yet!

What is important here is that these parameters seemed to affect one's perception of the iris auto-adjustments during watching. Someone even mentioned that going higher than some value on the "Iris/Close Reg" (which I remind is a bit different for every projector) it would become very distracting for him.

My point is that this parameter could have been badly adjusted in CLK's preview HS60, and this would explain the problem he described. This is even more likely as ac388's unit doesn't seem to have that problem (at least he hasn't been able to reproduce it yet).

Cheers,
Dave.

ac388...

Please let us know if the HS51 service menu remote commands work on the HS60. These (2) sets of commands mentioned work with other HS series projectors, so I would assume they might still be valid. It would be good to know.

cheers

I follow your steps but it shows a question : Do you wish to return to the User mode ?

No matter I hit Yes or No n then Menu, the display just went off, n no additional menu come on.

Maybe Sony has changed their procedure on the Factory mode.

I follow your steps but it shows a question : Do you wish to return to the User mode ?

No matter I hit Yes or No n then Menu, the display just went off, n no additional menu come on.

Maybe Sony has changed their procedure on the Factory mode.

OK...

So you have tried BOTH sets of commands. The 1st command for W/B works, correct?

The 2nd command for the additional menu does not, correct?

On the HS-51, the menu resets when you power cycle the projector, so from an OFF condition, turn on the projector and then try the 2nd command and see what happens.

Maybe Sony did change the command for accessing the additional factory service controls. If this is the case, you could attempt various combinations of commands using the ENTER, UP, DOWN <-, -> keys, to see if any works. In the mean time, someone might be able to order a service manual on the new projector and the manual should have all of the codes available.

(...)
Some posts in the official HS50/51 thread describe this as speed or throttle of the iris, but others mention threshold (actually, I think you're the one that mentioned threshold). You may be closer to the truth, I don't know - I haven't yet had the time to "mess up" with the factory settings (must take note of them before trying anything, in case things don't go well and I make a mistake), so I cannot comment by self-experience yet!

What is important here is that these parameters seemed to affect one's perception of the iris auto-adjustments during watching. Someone even mentioned that going higher than some value on the "Iris/Close Reg" (which I remind is a bit different for every projector) it would become very distracting for him.
(...)


Ok, just a quick update: I experienced a little bit with my HS50 (didn't had much time last night) with the "close reg" setting, and what I've found is this:

1. If you set the value too high, most dark images will be darker and the average black level will lower a bit

2. Absolute black level with a black picture seemed to stay the same (which probably means that the iris doesn't close more because of this setting)

3. The iris reacts much earlier when a scene is becoming darker (that is, the threshold seems to be higher)

4. The iris reacts much quicker - I tried going from very bright to black with the default setting, and the HS50 normally takes a few seconds to "settle down" (it seems to close rapidly at first to some step, but the last few steps take longer and longer). If I use a "close reg" of, for instance, 255 (max value), the iris takes something like a second or so to close completely.

5. On a very high setting, the iris is very sensible to scene luminance variations, becoming somewhat "hyper-active" and easily noticeable, to the point of being annoying.

(I don't know if this info shouldn't be in the HS50/51 thread...)

Cheers,
Dave.

Ok, just a quick update: I experienced a little bit with my HS50 (didn't had much time last night) with the "close reg" setting, and what I've found is this:...)

Cheers,
Dave.

I wonder... what was your factory setting, and when you end up with a final setting, please post if it's different from the factory.

The service manual for the HS51 contained instructions for setting the Iris values in the service menu. See this post in the old UNofficial Sony VPL-HS50/1 tweak thread.

The service manual for the HS51 contained instructions for setting the Iris values in the service menu. See this post in the old UNofficial Sony VPL-HS50/1 tweak thread.


Wow...

I missed this post as well as missed it in the manual.

What is the proper source image/signal to use when making these adjustments?

Well it sounds like things are moving along for the folks fortunate enough to have access to the HS-61. I know this has been posed to this forum many times before but.....

Does anyone have any updates on when this unit will be available in the US???

Well it sounds like things are moving along for the folks fortunate enough to have access to the HS-61. I know this has been posed to this forum many times before but.....

Does anyone have any updates on when this unit will be available in the US???

I have sent email requests for info to my Sony contacts and I will post any info they provide.

The rumor so far is to expect info around CES in January '06.

I wonder if the push to get the Sony Ruby out, is delaying the US release of the HS-60.

I hope to hear back one way or another in the next day or so, so I'll report even if Sony says they don't have any info to share at this time.

Hi Everyone,

First up, huge thanks to all on this forum who inadvertanly helped with my painstaking research and eventual decision to buy the HS60 :D :D :D .

All the usual newbie cliches apply to me, 12 months of research, building home theatre room, no-where to compare models, can't handle rainbows, steep technical learning curve blah blah blah...

Anyway, I now have 3 hours up on the HS60 after it was 'officially' released by Sony yesterday in Australia, and thought I owed it to this site (and others) to offer an opinion - first impression.

I know pricing is strictly forbidden but let me just say that in Australia the HS60 RRP is 12.5% cheaper than either Z4 or AE900 RRP. Street prices are proportionally cheaper too. Another way to put it is I got mine for less than the price of an old AE700 - and much less than the HS50. Please don't kick me off the forum :D

Eventually this PJ will live in a dedicated light controlled room with a Herma 100" fixed screen. Funny thing is after months of in depth of research on all the tecnical variables, reviews and opinions I realised on the day before purchase that the HS60 was the only PJ under consideration that had front/rear fans, thus allowing it to fit the special enclosure in my room while allowing adequate cooling. Luckily it was my first choice anyway. I'd highly recomend downloading and reading the manuals as one of the best ways to help with your decision.

So, out of the box and on to a foul cream coloured wall - 100" image and seating 4m away (13 feet). <Insert all the newbie - "I've never owned a projector and am blown away" comments here>.With this in mind let me attempt to make some intelligent/relevant comments rather than gloss about how great it is...

I watched a bit of "Somethings gotta give" and "Thomas Crown affair" via component (mostly to get the WAF to buy in to the wonders of PJ's - mission accomplished), then played a bit of GT4 on PS2 via composite and then wife watched "Gilmore Girls" on my laptop via VGA cable. Wife = happy. I wont get to test HDMI until my HTPC is built in a few weeks.

Dynamic IRIS - I could see absolutely no indication that this was in action, it was definately on, maybe with a proper screen and lighting I'll see it working but for now - nothing - it just looked awesome. I reckon even if you could notice it, it's not even a consideration for buying this or other projectors with DI function...ie very insignificant influence on purchasing decision relative to say VB or noise.

SDE - Hard to comment cause I'm too green but I wouldn't sit closer than 7 feet on a 100" image - why would you want to anyway ? from 3-4m I couldn't see it at all (DVD). Once again, on this PJ it's like splitting hairs, it's such a miniscule consideration for the purchase decision.

Noise/VB - Perfect. It's what I didn't see that counts - the image quality is stunning. Not once on any media did I see an artifact, VB, noise or picture quality variation. Sure the PS2 via composite is a pretty aweful thing but in no way was the PJ contributing here. (garbage in = garbage out). Something's gotta give (DVD - component) looked unbelievable, colours were accurate, skin tones great, sharp, detailed, amazing contrast, excellent black detail, vivid and clear.

The true test was that I was trying to analyse the picture quality but kept getting sucked in to the film. A 5min test lasted over an hour as we got absorbed in a movie we'd seen countless times. Not once did something occur quality wise in the picture to cause any concern or distraction.

I haven't seen enough PJ's in action to comment on brightness, nor do I know the first thing about tweaking or calibration. I can say we both liked "dynamic" mode for some scenes and "cinema" for others though. No doubt I will go nuts with the menus and post back in the future...

Set up - super easy, lens shift is huge, took all of 5 minutes - on an ironing board no less.

Is "APS" new on these PJ's ? It's a function that detects PC resolution (input) and automatically adjusts PJ resolutuon and pixel size to fit perfectly. (I think). I'll comment more once the HTPC is working and I understand this better.

My primary concerns about this PJ were SDE and DI distractions, these are such non issues, the fact the Remote lights up it's buttons counts for more in my mind. For others thinking about this PJ (and probably the other new 720p LCD's) these 2 issues seem like a point of very insignificant differentiation. My 2 cents, I'm no expert.

Thanks again everyone, the PJ is back in it's box for the next month while we finish building the house :( , I'll have more to say next year and would be very happy to answer questions and provide feedback in the meantime.

Cheers,
Mutchy.

Mutchy...congratulations!.........Was your iris on the "On" position or "Auto". On the on position iris will remain at it's minimum aperture, where as on the auto position it will be dynamic and one will get the full benefit on the on/off CR this baby is capable of. Do tell!

If it was on auto and the blinking effect(when confronted by subtitles) has been addressed..............yes! :D

Hi Highjinx,

I'm happy to say it was definately in 'auto' position. I could not notice the iris working at all. I haven't specifically tested a dark scene with white subtitles text however.

Cheers

Hi Highjinx,

I'm happy to say it was definately in 'auto' position. I could not notice the iris working at all. I haven't specifically tested a dark scene with white subtitles text however.

Cheers

Thanks Mutchy! I want to pair the HS60 with a 92" HP screen soon!

For our US & other fellow enthusiasts here is the Aust HS60 PDF:

http://www.sony.com.au/objects/pdf/HS60%20Brochure.pdf

Hello everyone,
I know this is really looking far in advance but does anyone care to speculate what the next generation of Sony projectors will give us for next year? What do you feel the likelihood of a 1080p projector coming out priced at what the hs-60 is priced at? I know it is a year early asking this question and it will take me a year just to build the home theater myself. Curious on everyones input!

Thanks,

Ken

I missed this post as well as missed it in the manual.

What is the proper source image/signal to use when making these adjustments?
I don't think the source matters, the manual doesn't specify any particular source or image. It is a mystery to me what any of the settings or values mean, but the adjustment process did seem to improve the Iris behavior after my HS-51 came back from the service center. Before doing it I would occasionally notice Iris shifts while watching a movie, but since making the adjustment it is extremely rare.

I don't think the source matters, the manual doesn't specify any particular source or image. It is a mystery to me what any of the settings or values mean, but the adjustment process did seem to improve the Iris behavior after my HS-51 came back from the service center. Before doing it I would occasionally notice Iris shifts while watching a movie, but since making the adjustment it is extremely rare.

Thanks. What did you use as a source when you made your adjustment?

See, I was wondering if using full screen IRE values of 0 IRE and 100 IRE was they way to set up the open/close values.

Thanks again for your response.

hey ckl, now that the hs60 is released in japan, have you gotten a chance to purchase one yet? I know of a place i can import one from for a good price ( i know we cant talk price ) Anyway just wondering if you got a hold of a production unit and if you think there would be any reason to wait for us release? jeff

HS60 is available now in HK. Some of our AVBuzz members have bought it. I'm busy to test HC3000. After I complete the review on HC3000, I will go to have a look at the production unit.

Thanks. What did you use as a source when you made your adjustment?

See, I was wondering if using full screen IRE values of 0 IRE and 100 IRE was they way to set up the open/close values.
I don't remember what I was using, I think it was just a random movie from my DVD player. I assumed that the the step where you change 34/Iris Adj from 0 to 1 put the PJ into some sort of test state so it is unaffected by the input. But I did not run any tests to verify it. I guess you could try using some different test patterns and see if the Open and Close Hall values change when the pattern changes. If they don't, then it won't matter what the image is when you make the adjustments.

Hey Mutchy Where are you located in Australia !!

OK
Here it is in a nut shell.

My NEC PG6 CRT projector [sort of died on me-more on this later]

I had replaced two different componets on the latter and still had failure.

So I thought I might check out what was happening in the $3-5K region digtal front.

Had a look at the Panasonic AE900,nice ,but that smoothing effect that you can't turn off really annoyed me....so not for me,even though screen door is basically null and void with this unit,the Percieved lack of sharpness made everything look like a wedding photo....sorry, as nice as it may be I can't live with that after CRT.

I had a look at the Sanyo Z4,sharp picture,pretty good contrast,black level so-so,but seemed strangly artaficial.....weird feeling watching it compared to the crt...even after trying some of the tweaks from AVS and the screen door effect would still be visably annoying at the screen distance I need for my setup......NEXT.

Sony HS60-well truth be known I went to seriously purchase it's predecessor the HS50,
that unit had great contrast,best blacks-[well compared to the competition at that time]
Were talking less than six months ago-but the screen door effect was really apparent so I shelved that as an option.

NOT so with the new HS60,it don't know how they did it,but sony has managed to get the best contrast with the deepest [LCD] blacks,and have the sharpness of the sanyo with screen door effect minimal if not quite eliminated[none of then have managed this]

Bottom line is I bought one!

Another quick note is that the QUALIA line of SONY products are not to be carried by Sony australia since last month.

They DO have the "RUBY" mentioned in this quaters sony PULSE mag,RRPAUS$14999-special order only,it's not mentioned on their web site though.

Just thought I let you know.

Also-PS3 has a deffered release date of FEB 2006 same time the RUBY will be available

MUCHY
You have a PM.

Does anyone know if the HS60 manual is available on line?

Thanks.

Shelly

hi, l'm also from australia, and like most people atm am tossing up what to get........l'm really keen on the hs60.just got to see one running first if l can...trevor lees sells them at a price cheaper than the other brand lcd's atm, so is very tempting..........glad to hear sde is not a problem for you, how far back are you sitting?......my last pojector was a panasonic ae500....which we lost in a house fire earlier this year..l liked it apart from a bit of vb and lack of sharpness....otherwise it was pretty good...l have 2-3 months before our house is re-built and have to make a decision soon so l can prewire etc....l'll have to start going to the nearest city for demos soon.....just got to find the time!....anyway keep us informed as to you thoughts on this pj over the next few weeks as it will be helpful to people such as myself.........cheers ken

I also upgrade from a AE500 to a HS60. Huge difference in regards of VB, picture noise, sharpness n especially the contrast. I did home-trial the AE900 in my apartment before the Sony purchase, the picture quality on the two is not even close. I just envy you guys in Australia can get the HS60 cheaper than the AE900, Z4 n TW600. So, it is not a difficult decision here, the HS60 is by far the best affordable LCD projector in the market rightnow, unless your wallet is deep enough for the Ruby.

:D :D :D

I can't believe the Aussie retail price is so cheap. Three years ago I got a HS10, now the HS60 has about 10 times the contrast, half the noise level and half the price. Amazing how fast the development cycle has been.

ac388,

What settings give your setup the best picture?

Cheers,

Muzz

I also upgrade from a AE500 to a HS60. Huge difference in regards of VB, picture noise, sharpness n especially the contrast. I did home-trial the AE900 in my apartment before the Sony purchase, the picture quality on the two is not even close. I just envy you guys in Australia can get the HS60 cheaper than the AE900, Z4 n TW600. So, it is not a difficult decision here, the HS60 is by far the best affordable LCD projector in the market rightnow, unless your wallet is deep enough for the Ruby.

:D :D :D
I have moved up from AE700 to HS60, yes the difference between HS60 and AE700 is quite significant, AE700 has much softer picture, HS60 is very sharp and it is super clear and it can really show up the bad mastering of a DVD disc so if you are feeding it a badly mastered dvd and this machine will definitely expose it. The other strength of this projector is the level of detail shown up in dark scene and here it leave AE700 in the dust and AE900 is better than AE700 in this area but it just does not have the same level of detail in dark scene compare to HS60. In Australia we have excellent price for Sony but we also have excellent price on Epson TW600. HS60 is slightly more expensive than AE900 but TW600 is priced well below AE900 with free screen being offered and other freebies it really is close to the price of TW600 in Japan.

I used the 'Standard' setting, which seems to have the best color tone to start with. I did use the 'HIVI Cast' disc from Japan to calibrate the Contrast, Brightness, Sharpness n Hue. But once I start doing the RGB Gain n RGB Bias, I got a bit confused n that's why I hope CKL will offer me some help.

I have moved up from AE700 to HS60, yes the difference between HS60 and AE700 is quite significant, AE700 has much softer picture, HS60 is very sharp and it is super clear and it can really show up the bad mastering of a DVD disc so if you are feeding it a badly mastered dvd and this machine will definitely expose it. The other strength of this projector is the level of detail shown up in dark scene and here it leave AE700 in the dust and AE900 is better than AE700 in this area but it just does not have the same level of detail in dark scene compare to HS60. In Australia we have excellent price for Sony but we also have excellent price on Epson TW600. HS60 is slightly more expensive than AE900 but TW600 is priced well below AE900 with free screen being offered and other freebies it really is close to the price of TW600 in Japan.

I wonder if you notice the picture noise on HS60 is substantially lower than AE500 or AE900, n also the lack of VB which I originally thought can only happen to DLP units only.

Has anyone upgraded from a HS50/51 or had enough viewing of those to compare to the HS60?

I'm mainly interested in if the perceived contrast (ansi, intrascene, instantaneous) of the HS60 is a significant step up from the older Sony. Especially in darker scenes where I think the HS50 sometimes may look a little flat due to limited true on/off compared to for instance DLPs.

Has anyone upgraded from a HS50/51 or had enough viewing of those to compare to the HS60?

I'm mainly interested in if the perceived contrast (ansi, intrascene, instantaneous) of the HS60 is a significant step up from the older Sony. Especially in darker scenes where I think the HS50 sometimes may look a little flat due to limited true on/off compared to for instance DLPs.

The Sony looks flatter than a DLP with absolute blacks, but its true On/Off is better than most DLPs out there? After calibration DarinP and I measured 5890:1 with mine. Most people are getting high 3K's which is still quite good. I think what you are referring to is more absolute blacks, not On/Off.

Has it been reported anywhere what the msrp of the HS60 (HS51a) will be in the US?

Shelly

Thanks for your reply Kris.

Just to make sure I understand you, with true on/off contrast I actually mean the contrast without the dynamic iris active. A normal HS50 has approx 800:1 if you measure it with its iris in the on or off position? I may have used a confusing term, I apologise for that. I also may be way off in my assumptions so feel free to correct me if I am and I'll stop spreading confusion.

I'm asking because in many scenes an ND-filtered ~2500:1 HD2+ DLP I used to own way outclassed the HS50, especially in darker scenes, although the total on/off was visibly less (ND-filtered to a comparable white level with the HS50). I figured this was due to slightly higher ansi-cr but perhaps mostly due to significantly higher "true" on/off cr. This may be what some are referring to as instantaneous contrast or maybe intrascene contrast. Is this wrong?

I've only seen CKLs measurement and they indicate the HS50 having slightly higher cr with a fixed iris and I was wondering if this was noticable?

After D65 tracking from 30-100IRE, I got 2600:1 from HS50 and 5000:1 from HS60. HS50 takes several second to drop to the lowest black while HS60 cut the brightness immediately. Don't mesure their ANSI contrast but I guess both have similar ANSI contrast. From my memory, HS60 has better real contrast and lower black comparing to HS50.

Fredrik

The DLP will have a lower absolute black level which will contribute more to what you are talking about. Especially in really dim scenes. I only use the HS51 in Auto Iris mode.

CKL

It is too bad that the HS60 doesn't seem to be a huge improvement in On/Off CR compared to my HS-51. But even if the CR is the same I am interested in how the absolute blacks look in comparison. That is my only complaint with the HS51. I improved them a bit with a ND2 filter but I would still like them to be a bit darker.

It is too bad that the HS60 doesn't seem to be a huge improvement in On/Off CR compared to my HS-51. But even if the CR is the same I am interested in how the absolute blacks look in comparison. That is my only complaint with the HS51. I improved them a bit with a ND2 filter but I would still like them to be a bit darker.

If the CR is the same, the only way the absolute blacks will be darker is if the whites are also darker. CR=brightest white/darkest black.

I am well aware of that, but you can lower black leves without affecting contrast ratio.

For example, I have lowered my absolute blacks by using an ND filter which in turns lowers my total white level. But it cuts both equally so the contrast ratio stays the same (the difference between white and black). When we finished calibrating my PJ I was getting about 18fL on a Stewart Studiotek 130 (1.3 gain). Now I am getting about 8-9 fL on it which is dim for some people but my room has pretty good light control so it is still plenty bright for me.

So Sony could have made the absolute blacks better without sacrificing CR and since this is a pretty dim PJ anyways, the whites wouldn't have been affected dramatically.

Assuming similar brightness levels between the HS50/51 & the HS 60/61, according to CKL's findings the black levels on the HS60/61 would 2x darker than the the black levels of the HS50/51. Add the High Contrast Plate to that equation the black levels on the HS60/61 could be even lower than that....while maintaining the higher CR the HS60/61 provides over the HS50/51.

2x Black Level

2x On/Off Cr

Not a bad improvement IMO! :)

The contrast plates seem to just eliminate stray reflective light within the PJ around the panels. This would lower black levels while leaving the intended light the same. So contrast ratio would go up, black levels would go down and white levels would be the same.

If this is truly the case, you could expect near the same brightness levels from the HS60 as the 51. Which means if you have a light controlled room like me, you could still use a ND filter and get even better blacks and still a pretty bright picture! I hope this is the case!

Kris,

I realize that the HS50 is much better in all regards than my older 10HT.

But do you know how the light level of the HS50 compares to the 10HT? I'm looking for increased lumens.

Shelly

I improved them a bit with a ND2 filter but I would still like them to be a bit darker.

Which ND filter are you using and is it 77mm?

No 52 mm in the light path. I wish I could find one the size of the lens cap that I could just fit over the lens but no joy so far. I only recommend ND filters for people that have just about total light control though.

Shelly,

Couldn't tell you on lumens. I never saw a 10Ht to compare light output, but the Sony isn't the brightest PJ out there. It also depends on your screen size and room.

Hi all,

Apologies for all the late replies to PM's from my mates in OZ. All answered now...

Someone asked where to see 51 vs 60 in Sydney - Sony Central Chatswood have both set up side by side for viewing in a light controlled room + 80" screen. They also matched the price I got from Bing Lee and Retravision. <hint>

They also have a Quallia and are happy to show it off - no longer for sale in Oz as mentioned.

The HS60 is getting great reviews from the few of us in OZ who bought them. Very Happy so far but won't get to tweak for another month, stay tuned.

Cheers
Mutchy

PS for anyone who cares, here's a review of my new room from another forum (cut and paste)


The room -

I designed the room around my system, I have Jamo 507 series audiophile speakers (+ 507 surround centre/rears) and 2 * 200W Jamo subwoofers connected to a Yamaha Amp and Nakamichi IA3 dedicated amp for the mains. (If anyone is interested the Jamo subs have continuously variable phase so are fantastic to tune, ie not just 0 or 90 phase switching but 0 to 180 via a dial.).

The room is relatively small at 4.5m deep, the projector is in a dedicated box that is built in to the rear wall 2m up, the back of the box is open to our walk in wardrobe, but the front has glass (removable) thus isolating noise (the room doubles as a recording studio). This is yet to be tested and cooling may be an issue yet. The Audio gear is built in to two cabinets recessed into the side wall, the back of the cabinets are under our stairs in a store room. - so all the noise, heat and cable spagetti is out of site and easy to manage.

The screen is a Herma 100" fixed housed in a dedicate cabinet.

Next weekend I'm building an AMD X2 64bit dual core based XPMC HTPC with a Terrabyte of storage (Raid 0), this will be used as a media server, PVR, video edit box and music sequencer. - plus games of course.

I couldn't resist unpacking the 60 for another go and tonight we're watching War of the Worlds up on the appartment wall.

I wonder if you notice the picture noise on HS60 is substantially lower than AE500 or AE900, n also the lack of VB which I originally thought can only happen to DLP units only.
Yes, I have notice lowering of picture noise on HS60 compare to AE700 and AE900, I for one certainly feel that smooth screen or whatever techonogly that Panasonic use does reduce the screen door effect but it also affect or reduce the detail of the projected picture.

Fredrik

The DLP will have a lower absolute black level which will contribute more to what you are talking about. Especially in really dim scenes. I only use the HS51 in Auto Iris mode.

CKL

It is too bad that the HS60 doesn't seem to be a huge improvement in On/Off CR compared to my HS-51. But even if the CR is the same I am interested in how the absolute blacks look in comparison. That is my only complaint with the HS51. I improved them a bit with a ND2 filter but I would still like them to be a bit darker.


Both HS60 and HS50 are not bright enough to apply filter tweaking. From my measurement, HS60 has significant improvement on black level and on/off contrast.

Both HS60 and HS50 are not bright enough to apply filter tweaking. From my measurement, HS60 has significant improvement on black level and on/off contrast.

They are bright enough if you are using a smaller screen and have a light controlled room. My screen is only 78"diagonal and I sit 2 screen widths away. My room is about 95% light controlled in the daytime with very dark walls. At night it is 100%. Again, calibrated I was getting about 18fL without a filter. Now I am getting about 9 which is still plenty bright in my dark room. SMPTE recommends about 12fL for proper viewing. I've seen PJs that seem very bright at around 7fL. It all depends on how dark your viewing enviroment is. I would love to get around 18fL all the time but that usually sacrifices black levels a bit with LCD based PJs. I will of course try it both ways with the HS-60 if I ever can get hold of one.

Hi all,just bought the HS60 for cheaper then i could have got the AE900.
First impressions.Awesome.
Its at least as bright as my old Ae700.My wife thinks its much brighter.
I was expecting to see screen door but all i see is a incredibly sharp noise free VB free picture,with incredible black detail and dark blacks.
Colours are also great and its so damn quiet.
I was expecting much more then my AE700 but the HS60 blows it out of the water.
Thanks all for the input as i was leaning towards the TW600 becuase i was concerned with brightness and SDE.
Even when i blow out the picture to 1.5x i dont get a hint of SDE.At 1.8x the picture is incredibly sharp.
Lens shift works a treat,and its a hell of a lot heavier then the AE700.That
extra weight is kind of reassuring.You know that sony hasnt really skimped on anything.Well maybe a motorized zoom would have been nice.

After D65 tracking from 30-100IRE, I got 2600:1 from HS50 and .

wsr, cine4Home and others got 5000:1, 4000:1 from hs50 (hs60 "pdf" : 10 000:1, a little bit less at home, but propably more than 5000, no ?)

originally posted by shelly

I realize that the HS50 is much better in all regards than my older 10HT.

But do you know how the light level of the HS50 compares to the 10HT? I'm looking for increased lumens.

shelly: I upgraded from a 10HT to the HS51 and had both side by side for a while. In "cinema" mode (low lamp, black levels set for a dark room, and color set at D65) my 10HT with 300 hours on the lamp was slightly brighter than the HS51 with a new lamp. At full throttle (high lamp, high color temp, etc.) the 10HT was considerably brighter.

That said, I would never want to go back to the 10HT. Because the HS51 is so superior, I don't miss the brightness at all. But if you need to watch with the lights on, or you have a very large or dark screen, this is not the projector for you.

Pip

Kris,
You have a PM.

wsr, cine4Home and others got 5000:1, 4000:1 from hs50 (hs60 "pdf" : 10 000:1, a little bit less at home, but propably more than 5000, no ?)

Different reviewer has different measuring method, equipment and setting. So it is normaly to have different results. There is no absolute correct value. But you can compare the results obtained using the same method and equipment. When I got 2600:1 from HS50 and 5000:1 from HS60, other may got 4000:1 from HS50 and 8000:1 from HS60.

Please be reminded that the black level of HS50 is dropping gradually after say the luminance level is changed from 50 to 0IRE. I doubt its black won't drop to its minimum when we watch the movies. This is because the movies change the lumen level frequently. I think this is one of the reason where HS60 shows darker black than HS50.

I watched two cuts of DVD showing whit subtitles at dark scenes and bright spotted object in the dark concert. It seems that HS60 production unit has no blinking effect.

shelly: I upgraded from a 10HT to the HS51 and had both side by side for a while. In "cinema" mode (low lamp, black levels set for a dark room, and color set at D65) my 10HT with 300 hours on the lamp was slightly brighter than the HS51 with a new lamp. At full throttle (high lamp, high color temp, etc.) the 10HT was considerably brighter.

That said, I would never want to go back to the 10HT. Because the HS51 is so superior, I don't miss the brightness at all. But if you need to watch with the lights on, or you have a very large or dark screen, this is not the projector for you.

Pip

Thanks for the comparison. There is no doubt in my mind that the HS60 would be night and day over the 10HT. I would expect this as it is 6 generations more advanced.

Since I run the pj in low lamp, I should expect the HS60 to be slightly dimmerm but probably not by much.

I have no problem with the brightness of the picture on my 106" diagnal, 1.3 gain screen at night. So the 10HT is a great winter time projector for me (except for the mediocre blacks and contrast ratio), but I usually start a movie around 7:00pm in the summer and it is very washed out until toward the end when it gets dark out. I'm an early to bed, early to rise kind of guy.

I'm not sure that I can wait until early-mid next year when the HS60 would be available. So I continue to play the game of getting excited about each and every pj that comes out with good reviews. Right now it's the Hitachi PJ52. Then I go back to the HS60. Drives me crazy.

In fact, any of the new D5 lcd pjs would probably be major upgrades. To bad that the Mits 3000 and Dwin TV4 that I was recently wowed by have offset which will not worrk for me. I do need lens shift.

Shelly

One thing I've been wondering about is whether the hs60 has better grayscale tracking than the hs 50.Just about every reviewer who's ever looked at the hs50 has mentioned poor grayscale tracking that can't quite be calibrated away.Has anyone notced an improvement in this area?

I can track both HS50 and HS60 to have D65 easily. But to have flat 30-100IRE RGB levels, you need to lower its contrat level.

I can track both HS50 and HS60 to have D65 easily. But to have flat 30-100IRE RGB levels, you need to lower its contrat level.

I would love to see your primary and RGB bias/gain settings, if you would consider posting them.

...

One thing I've been wondering about is whether the hs60 has better grayscale tracking than the hs 50.Just about every reviewer who's ever looked at the hs50 has mentioned poor grayscale tracking that can't quite be calibrated away.Has anyone notced an improvement in this area?

Perfect grayscale tracking is not really achievable with this PJ but you can get pretty close. The problem is trying to figure out how you want to go about doing the grayscale. If you did it traditionally with windows for each IRE, things are going to be tough, especially in the lower IRE's. Darin and I did it that way for quite awhile and only got it so far. After that we put up a ramp of the entire grayscale and tweaked it in from there visually and managed to get it quite good.

Perfect grayscale tracking is not really achievable with this PJ but you can get pretty close. The problem is trying to figure out how you want to go about doing the grayscale. If you did it traditionally with windows for each IRE, things are going to be tough, especially in the lower IRE's. Darin and I did it that way for quite awhile and only got it so far. After that we put up a ramp of the entire grayscale and tweaked it in from there visually and managed to get it quite good.

Hi Kris...

So the HS-60 has the same video processing of higher luminance values,as the HS-50/51?

Any word on the Ruby, if it shares similar video processing, or does it do things differently?

Thanks

RJ
...

I am not sure about the HS60 as I haven't got one yet. I am tempted to order one from Australia but I think I will wait and see what Sony announces at CES, or sooner.

The Ruby seems to have different video processing altogether. Greg Rogers didn't seem to have much of an issue getting great gray scale tracking, but his review didn't go into any depth about exactly how he did it and in what mode.

After re-watching a lot of old dvd over the weekend, I have to say the picture quality on my HS60 now looks ---- STUNNING !!! Correct Contrast, Brightness, Color Temp., Sharpness, minimal screendoor(1.8x) n almost non-existing VB after the 'Colorfacts' calibration.

Thanks to both Li On n CKL coming to my apartment to assist me on the calibration, n it also gave me a better understanding why calibration cannot be done by eyes alone, which I did try before with the 'HIVI' n 'DVE' disc.

Maybe with a higher gain(1.3) screen, the Contrast will even be better. However, don't get me wrong, the picture now is bright enough n black enough on all normal movies, n it only show a shade of dim when you are watching those 'borderline-bright' movies like 'The Kingdom of Heaven'. Maybe it had something to do with my 0.8 gain screen.

This experience kind of made me believe, that you are only half way there when getting a new projector , the rest is in the CALIBRATION !!!

Thanks to both Li On n CKL coming to my apartment to assist me on the calibration, n it also gave me a better understanding why calibration cannot be done by eyes alone, which I did try before with the 'HIVI' n 'DVE' disc.


Perhaps you could tell us how you (+Li On n CKL) calibrated your HS60...? ;)

who can tell me about the tx200 and hs60? which is the best? regards.

Perhaps you could tell us how you (+Li On n CKL) calibrated your HS60...? ;)

We use Colorfacts with Eyeone sensor and AVIA to do the calibration.

Thanks to both Li On n CKL coming to my apartment to assist me on the calibration, n it also gave me a better understanding why calibration cannot be done by eyes alone, which I did try before with the 'HIVI' n 'DVE' disc.
....

This experience kind of made me believe, that you are only half way there when getting a new projector , the rest is in the CALIBRATION !!!
Nice! Is this a great forum or what? Kudos to CKL and LiOn. And you're right about calibration.

Im on the verge of importing the hs60 but the one thing that worries me is sony's bi:na tech that is up coming. Im wondering if this new tech is why sony has not released the hs60 here in the states as of yet? Could sony be waiting til ces 2006 to show us a bi:na hs61 for the states? CKL if you read this any ideas? Or is the new contrast plate that sony uses on the new hs60 that improves the cr of the hs51 an example of this new tech with out actually naming it bi:na??? Hmmmm. I have no idea, anybody with a clue? i guess there will always be something better but ces 2006 is pretty darn close.jeff

I have no idea, anybody with a clue? i guess there will always be something better but ces 2006 is pretty darn close.jeff

My guess is Sony did/does not want any distractions during the current release of the Sony Ruby VPLVW100. I have no outside knowledge to support this, but I just have a gut feeling.

Perhaps we might see a new beast, a lower cost version of the Ruby with some compromises, placing performance somewhere between the HS-60 and the Ruby?

Watching these updates unfold is part of the fun. That is if you think waiting for the ketchup to come from the bottle is fun.

;-)

I don't know why Sony doesn't release HS51A(HS60) in the state at the same time as that in Asia, Autralia and Europe. I don't believe Sony will produce 1080P LCD panels. They can lower the price of Ruby if they choose the UHP lamp instead of Xenon where the case size and heat sink can be reduced.

I don't know why Sony doesn't release HS51A(HS60) in the state at the same time as that in Asia, Autralia and Europe. I don't believe Sony will produce 1080P LCD panels. They can lower the price of Ruby if they choose the UHP lamp instead of Xenon where the case size and heat sink can be reduced.

CKL......do you have any information as to when the Sony Bi-Na6 panels will be ready for production.

I too have a feeling that Sony is up to something. The U.S. being their largest single market, could they be getting rid of their existing LCD panels in the other markets and lay the Bi-Na6 on for the U.S market as jeffropaige has eluded to?

A 4 to 5 x increase in On/off CR(W/O DI) as well as a boost to ANSI is sure appealing.

The information from Japan shows that Sony may start the mass production of Bi-Na6 panel in the first season of 2006. I guess the projector using such panel may arrive in mid-end of 2006. But there is room for SXRD to lower the price. I am curious the price difference between SXRD and Bi-Na6 in 2006. Moreover, the timing and price of D5 1080P projector may affect Sony to change their strategy.

So ckl I guess the 3 grand question that I ask of you is........do I wait? Or do I jump in and purchase the vpl-hs60. What would you suggest????? Im dyeing man need some advice. Im just gonna flip a coin. LOL jeff

....do I wait? Or do I jump in and purchase the vpl-hs60. What would you suggest?????

Sony customer service is hard enough. Buying the HS-60 from outside the country might only complicate any warranty or service issues. Sony is not very likely to provide support for a HS-60 thru a US based repair center.

I would wait.

i think i might agree byte, id have to send back to japan for any repairs. which is probably around $200 a pop there and back (ouch) jeff

Of course, I don't recommend you guys to buy the HS60 thru grey market. However, if you have a chance to watch it at a shop when you travel to Asia or Australia, please do so n you won't regret it.

As I got a hand on several new dvd discs, like 'The Island', 'Fantastic 4', 'Star War 3' n a new Chinese movie from Jacky Chan, the picture looks so sharp n clean n 3D, it is just plain STUNNING. I watched a little bit of each disc n went to bed at 3AM n left me the feel of getting so close to a perfect projector without spending a fortune or risking the rainbow factor.

Using with 1.3 gain white matte 90-100inch diagonal at 2x screen width distance, HS60 is a perfect digital projector. You won't regret to buy one.

Getting a 1.3 gain screen is no problem. But getting 2x distance from my place will be a big headache, unless I have to knock down some wall. Did you notice a lot of SD when you watched the other day, since I cannot see any, unless a very bright solid white scene staying on for more than a split second.

CKL..............you state a 1.3 gain screen. I intend to use the HS60 with a 92" 2.8 gain screen, on low lamp with a .3 ND filter. Assuming 255Lumens on low lamp, that should give me around 14FtLamberts(new lamp) with the ND filter on and around 19FtLamberts(Old Lamp) with the lamp on high without the filter.

This also gives me the option of running on high lamp(New lamp) without the filter and getting around 38FlLamberts.....if required.

Do you or anyone else, see any drawbacks?

Many thanks! :)

When DI is activated, the black level is similar no matter you use high or low lamp mode. When you use low lamp mode, the white level is dropped so the on/off contrast is not as high as high low mode. I suggest you to use high lamp mode even you are using high gain screen. You can add CC20R or 81B filter to cut some light if you feel it is too bright. I think it should have 16ftL when the lamp is new. After say 300hr, the output lumen will drop 1/3. At that moment you still have 11-12ftL.

As digital projector, the black level at HS60 is quite good. When you add a filter, it will be even lower.

At 1.8x, SDE is visible but not too serious, and it can be tolerated. Some people like ac388 may not see the SDE at such distance. SDE is more obvious at subtiles and bright uniform color. Other areas are difficult to identify it.

When DI is activated, the black level is similar no matter you use high or low lamp mode. When you use low lamp mode, the white level is dropped so the on/off contrast is not as high as high low mode. I suggest you to use high lamp mode even you are using high gain screen. You can add CC20R or 81B filter to cut some light if you feel it is too bright. I think it should have 16ftL when the lamp is new. After say 300hr, the output lumen will drop 1/3. At that moment you still have 11-12ftL.

As digital projector, the black level at HS60 is quite good. When you add a filter, it will be even lower.


Thanks for your input CKL! :) BTW why the CC20R or 81B filter and not a ND filter?

ND can lower its overall lumen level but color correction filter can improve the on/off contrast and lower its black at the same time.

ND can lower its overall lumen level but color correction filter can improve the on/off contrast and lower its black at the same time.

If the CC20R filter will remove 1/3fstop or or so of the blue - green & 81B filter will make the image warmer, would I be correct in assuming that it that the HS60 has excessive blue-Green and it would benefit from it's removal.

EDIT: I think I need a crash course in filter application in projectors!!

Thanks! :)

Most UHP lamp has highest blue, and then green. The red is minimal. That's why we need CCR and 81/85 filter to correct this kind of color shift and keep all RGB at their max levels so as to maximize the on/off contrast.

highjinx......where in oz are you mate?.....ken

Personally
Why I think sony has NOT released this PJ is because of the HDMI problem.
Of NOT getting a uncorrupted signal over greater than a 5m length,you need a booster to traverse anything over that length with HDMI without the "Sparkle"effect coming into play.

HDMI,nice idea-not good in the Long Run.....go figure!

Personally
Why I think sony has NOT released this PJ is because of the HDMI problem.
Of NOT getting a uncorrupted signal over greater than a 5m length,you need a booster to traverse anything over that length with HDMI without the "Sparkle"effect coming into play.

HDMI,nice idea-not good in the Long Run.....go figure!


Hi Blackwiggle.

What is the basis for this comment? Is this an issue with the sensitivity of the projector perhaps? I run a 35 foot HDMI cable from a Denon 2910 DVD player to a Sony HS-51 and don't recall ever having seen any sparkle effects.

Nasmo

bettercables seems to imply that lesser cables produce sparkle, whereas theirs don't...

hey ckl do you sell the hs60? I wasnt sure if you sell the projectors you review? Do you know of anyone that would pick me up one and check for any pixel problems before shipping? I would pay paypal.

p.s. the only other new pj i was thinking of ordering is the pj-tx200 by hitachi (which i look forward to you reviewing on your site, by the way will you do an english version of this hitachi pj?) thanks for all your reviews as i believe they have been very good and through.

thanks jeff

Most UHP lamp has highest blue, and then green. The red is minimal. That's why we need CCR and 81/85 filter to correct this kind of color shift and keep all RGB at their max levels so as to maximize the on/off contrast.

Thanks...CKL!........CC20R & 81B it is! :)


highjinx......where in oz are you mate?.....ken


Melbourne........champ! :)

highjinx what size filters (mm) are we talking? 80mm? do you know if the hs51 and hs60 are the same size??? jeff

Personally
Why I think sony has NOT released this PJ is because of the HDMI problem.
Of NOT getting a uncorrupted signal over greater than a 5m length,you need a booster to traverse anything over that length with HDMI without the "Sparkle"effect coming into play.

HDMI,nice idea-not good in the Long Run.....go figure!

Not if they met the HDMI spec which is supposed to be up to 15M. I know Nordost and Bettercables guarantee their cables to these lengths. Accell has a new HDMI cable that will go out to 45M and is guaranteed. They have in line amplifiers built into the connectors. Very nice.

highjinx what size filters (mm) are we talking? 80mm? do you know if the hs51 and hs60 are the same size??? jeff

If I am correct, the lens cap is 75mm.

Has anyone used a screw-on (72mm or 76mm) filter with success?

i spotted a hs60 in a shop window here in switzerland. since it was twice the price of my new and super ae900, i didnt pay much attention. i already own too much overpriced sony gear.

krlock dont playa hate lol jeff

If I am correct, the lens cap is 75mm.

Has anyone used a screw-on (72mm or 76mm) filter with success?

You can rest a 77mm filter on the non threaded side of the filter on top of the lens.

You can rest a 77mm filter on the non threaded side of the filter on top of the lens.

Mimason,

Any chance you know the threaded size as I think a screw-on filter is more optimal?

Thanks!

I think Kris Deering has a 52mm filter.

My filter is small. I hang it in front of the lens using tape so that the active image area is within the filter. Works fine with no adverse affect on the image but I would like to get one that is slightly bigger or that slides onto the lens.

Using with 1.3 gain white matte 90-100inch diagonal at 2x screen width distance, HS60 is a perfect digital projector. You won't regret to buy one.

I like the sound of the that CKL. I have a 80 inch 1.4 gain screen at 1.9 screen widths sounds like I'm almost there. After the trying both the Z4 and HC3000 the HS60 may just be the machine that will suit my room and eyes the best.

Thanks...CKL!........CC20R & 81B it is! :)





Melbourne........champ! :)




np mate.......l'm up near ballarat :) .just rebuilding the house atm due to fire earlier this year....lost a lot of ht gear and am currently building another..not the best way to upgrade l can tell you!......lol..cheers ken...ps if you know anyone after some killer subdrivers l have 2 ( out of 6 )spare 18" ascendant audio avalanche's l just imported from the u.s

"if you know anyone after some killer subdrivers l have 2 ( out of 6 )spare 18" ascendant audio avalanche's l just imported from the u.s "

Darn! I'm looking for a second pair, but the shipping cost must be killer...or was it?

Thanks

yeah noah.........they owe me nearly $900 australian each ....better off buying direct....except there not avalanches anymore.........l got these airfrieghted as thats the only way chad wanted to do it , the shipping weight was 220 kilos(packaged and on a plastic fork pallet ) from memoryit cost more to get them here than the purchase price....go by ship next time if l ever do it again!.cheers ken

np mate.......l'm up near ballarat :) .just rebuilding the house atm due to fire earlier this year....lost a lot of ht gear and am currently building another..not the best way to upgrade l can tell you!......lol..cheers ken...ps if you know anyone after some killer subdrivers l have 2 ( out of 6 )spare 18" ascendant audio avalanche's l just imported from the u.s

Sorry to hear about the fire Ken...........but like a Pheonix!.............!

Your new quad sub system must be a killer!

Will pass on info re your 2 spare subs. Good luck with the construction!

yep should be sweet mate......doing an ib line array sub so as you probably already know you need roughly 2x the drivers you'd use in regular box subs to get the same spl.....find out in feb/march l guess....just hope the hs60 doesnt shake on its ceiling mount if l go with that mounting system...last pj ( ae500) was on a dedicated floor stand on the carpet behind the couchs etc....talk to you soon...cheers ken

hi all

I was looking at the new hitachi 200 and found the iris to slow made the picture flash as the iris was adjusting just to slow.

so the question is

1 is the iris fast on the sony hs60 can you see any flicker or brightness adjustments with your eyes, is the iris just so fast you can not see it ???

I was reading the review of the ruby from cine4home and thay where on about the iris and thay tested it with a moon pulling away from the screen. Thay said that many projectors with the iris control would dime the picture of the moon as it pulled away making the moon darker when the iris closed which it should not do wheres the ruby corrected the gamma as the iris closed to keep the moon at the same level of brightness but alos made the darker scenes darker without killing the moon brightness

so the question is
2 will the hs60 have this feature or will or will it kill some parts of the picture and will not compisate for the bright areas of the picture ?????

hope you can help thanks

As far as i am concern, I did not notice the movement of Iris at all, which tells me it is doing its job properly. There were many scenes in Star War 3 that's similar to your Moon demo, which is zooming in n out of a bright object with a very dark background, which is no problem for HS60 .

The only thing that I wish to be better is the gain of my screen at 0.8, which is probably a bit low for this projector. So, during the daylight scene on some movie, it seems the picture is not bright enough. For night scene, this is one of the best projector you will see regardless of the price.

hi all

I was looking at the new hitachi 200 and found the iris to slow made the picture flash as the iris was adjusting just to slow.


What setting was the auto iris?

In final production units Auto 2 is supposedly noticeable and unsatisfactory, but Auto 1 isnt supposed to be noticeable.

'Supposed' because I havent yet seen this projector myself.

have to agree with ac388 had the hs60 for a couple of days now and tried various movies to try and trick the iris and failed every time the fades to black just look so smooth

Hi Cosawanty,

Just curious, what kind of screen are you using ?

I had the opportunity to audition the HS60 yesterday and have to say very disappointing.
I have the HS50 and have been very satisfied with the image it produces -even though a bit on the dim side.
The HS60 is dim, I mean really dim .
The machine was being displayed by Sony here in Perth , in a light controlled room .The bulb only had burned 30 hours.
Immediately afterwards I had a quick look at a Sim2 -Domino.
Different class -ok more than twice the price of the HS60 , but for me the HS60 unwatchable.

I had the opportunity to audition the HS60 yesterday and have to say very disappointing.
I have the HS50 and have been very satisfied with the image it produces -even though a bit on the dim side.
The HS60 is dim, I mean really dim .
The machine was being displayed by Sony here in Perth , in a light controlled room .The bulb only had burned 30 hours.
Immediately afterwards I had a quick look at a Sim2 -Domino.
Different class -ok more than twice the price of the HS60 , but for me the HS60 unwatchable.

Sounds like a severly faulty or under optimised unit.!

What I have been hearing is more light output from 60 than the predecessor. Perhaps someone wanted to sell something more expensive.

Hi I'm based in sydney Australia, and I just purchased the hs60, can someone tell me where I can buy the
filter that CKL is talking about
and where can I modify the setting of my RGB gain and RGB bias

Also with regards to the filter size, isn't it a question of just taking the lens cap with you when you go to buy the filter and ask for one that is the same size as the cap. Is this a stupid logic??

Hi I'm based in sydney Australia, and I just purchased the hs60, can someone tell me where I can buy the
filter that CKL is talking about
and where can I modify the setting of my RGB gain and RGB bias

The filters mentioned are photographic lens filters - try a decent camera shop. Coated glass filters are the best, but resin filters (like the Cokin) work OK too, and are cheaper. However, I'd be wary of using more than one Cokin filter, as it may affect contrast due to uncontrolled reflections.

hi.......hey CKL..........is it possible to instal a higher wattage bulb in the hs60?
And if so would it cause any side affects? cheers ken

Can anyone tell me if the Australian unit will work with US power standards?

Can anyone tell me if the Australian unit will work with US power standards?

No Kris, in Australia they use 230-240v and the connector plug is a different shape. More like a \ / shape rather than the '.' shape of the US connector... Nice try though! ;)

japan unit will work. jeff

Yes!

http://www.sony.com.au/homecinema/catalog/product.jsp?id=VPLHS60

Socket on projector is also standard computer power connector, so you would only need a new lead.

Yes!

http://www.sony.com.au/homecinema/catalog/product.jsp?id=VPLHS60

Socket on projector is also standard computer power connector, so you would only need a new lead.

Can't I just use the same cord for the HS-51 I already have??

Although the projector is marked for 220-230V, they actually can be used for multi-voltages. I didn't try HS60 at 100-110V but I guess it has no problem for such application.
I don't think a higher wattage lamp is workable for HS60. The power circuit has limited the power supply for the lamp.

kris you might want to wait george has said the vpl-hs51a is coming to the states this month and it is going to be a running change to the hs51 now. More info when it comes out will be posted cause im searching right now for one. jeff

CKL is the TX200 review in the making, i heard some great stuff about it

kris you might want to wait george has said the vpl-hs51a is coming to the states this month and it is going to be a running change to the hs51 now. More info when it comes out will be posted cause im searching right now for one. jeff

Well the price from Australia is lower than the dealer cost here in the states on the 51a, so I would still rather go that route personally.

I have just completed the testing/calibration/tweaking of TX200. I hope the detail review can be posted within this week.

Can't I just use the same cord for the HS-51 I already have??
Yup. Or you can cut the prong end off of the cord and replace it with one from a hardware store. Cost about a buck.
The only issue might be with the placement of the ferrite shield.
The shield can be purchased at any Radio Shack
Or you can buy a stock replacement cord from Sony Service.

FYI, due to the global market, most electronic gear made in Asia comes with auto-switching power supplies, especially computer related components.

For example, a Dell computer purchased in Australia will work in the states with the proper cord.

kris you might want to wait george has said the vpl-hs51a is coming to the states this month and it is going to be a running change to the hs51 now. More info when it comes out will be posted cause im searching right now for one. jeff

I heard this rumor as well from a different, but credible, source. I heard that the HS51A is the US version of the HS60. I also heard that it will have a new LCD panel called the "D9". Anyone know what this is? What panel did the HS51 have? How is this new panel better? Is it a resolution change?

Craig

i dont know about "d9" but the hs60 just uses the same hs51 panel (as far as i know) with a new "high contrast plate" added to it. im not sure if the hs51a uses a different panel or not???? could be not really sure maybe george can have some insight??? I would kinda think that sony would annouce something groudbreaking like that. I do know it has 1:1 hdmi for a pixel perfect image. For me everything else is icing on the cake.

hey craig are you sure your not confusing d9 with bi.na? read this article and see if this is what you heard about..

http://www.audioholics.com/news/pressreleases/SonyBiNAHTPSLCDpanels.php

jeff :)

so ckl how does the tx200 stack up against the hs51 or hs60? Blacks good? thanks for the reviews jeff

The only differences in the HS-60 compared to the 51A is the 51A will have an ethernet port and Sony's RCP, which I've been told from numerous sources doesn't do much.

I am very good friends with Robert George and know about what he was told. I also have spoken with my contacts at Sony too. I am working on getting a 51A for review soon.

I fail to see the marketing angle in calling this (HS60) projector the HS51A in the U.S.A............????........................!!!

Kris,

What's the RCP?

Thanks.

Craig

I just hope it comes out soon either way. The wife has finally agreed to a FP setup and I have an 88" firehawk quote just waiting to be ordered.

RCP........................Real Color Processing.

It's a color fine :) tuner!!

I fail to see the marketing angle in calling this (HS60) projector the HS51A in the U.S.A............????........................!!!

Makes the average guy think they are different so they are less prone to buy grey-market units as are being sold on Ebay right now.

FYI, due to the global market, most electronic gear made in Asia comes with auto-switching power supplies, especially computer related components.


However, one cause of concern is that units outside of North America may not neccessarily have the "CSA/ASA" approval, especially if an insurance company gets involved...

But is that really an issue?

This is a link too my HS60 post in the uk with screen shots for you lot in the usa hope you like thanks

up

have to put up 5 posts befor i can post link

next

This is a link too my HS60 post in the uk with screen shots for you lot in the usa hope you like thanks http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272770

Thanks for linking to another forum where I have to register to view an image.

Hey Robert, I may get a 51A before you!! Review unit before month's end maybe. ;)

This is a link too my HS60 post in the uk with screen shots for you lot in the usa hope you like thanks http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272770

I may have the same lumen problem as you do. Watching black scene, the blackness is outstanding on the HS60. But on bright scene, we found the brightness is a bit insufficient. I have a 0.8 gain screen n CKL suggested me to use a 1.3 gain screen like the Stewart Studiotek 130, which is just as expensive as the projector. However, when I mention extra gain like 1.5, he kind of went against that idea, because too high a gain, you will start seeing the texture of the screen material. Can you consult with your expert at your end about this ?

ac388 I find bright scene ok it's just dark scene seem to be dim hard to see all picture i only have a 1.1 gain screen so my well go for a 1.2 or 1.3 see what happens

Just finished installing my new HS60!
Some first impressions is the visible difference in black levels vs HS50 that was replaced.
I used CKLs user1 settings, high lamp, auto DI and i fed it from a 12meters Supra HDMI cable from the new Sony 9100ES dvd player at 1080i and at least to my eyes the image was amazing. Even my wife mentioned that the image was very similar to our 42'' plasma!
We watched fantastic 4 and it was the best money spend so far for me.
Screen is a 120'' diameter Projecta High contrast (similar to Da Lite) grey.

Nick

Hey Robert, I may get a 51A before you!! Review unit before month's end maybe.

Cool. You can tell me how to set mine up :D.

My order went in last Friday. I'll check on progress in a few days and let you know if it is in the country.

Kris,
I'm interested to hear your impressions of it!

Dave

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i manage :)

Posi, What is your problem?

Posi, we've spoken before. Consider this your last warning. I have plenty of complaints to back me up and an IP ban will be in your future should you continue on this path.

Kyser

Is the Sony HS60 better than the TX200 or AE900?

I don't have a complete dark room but I do want a very 3D image and something that will last me at least 4 years.

Thanks
Anim

You are probably better off with an AE900 in that case.

What makes you say that ?

Well, our Sonys are best situated in dark rooms.
Also, I wouldnt say our Sonys are very 3D-like compared to the AE900. Maybe this is due to the fact, in my eyes/opinion, that the AE900 does produce a brighter image. I think our the Sony produces a more film-like image.

sony does produce a more film like image i would say the sony is much better than the ae900 it is i bit dim but with the right screen it's probably the best lcd in this price

Well, whats the difference between "Film Like" and 3D Feel. To me 3D means it feels like im there in the action and I would duck if things flew at the screen (like all the crows flying over the mountain in Lord of the Rings) giving a very good imersive feel.

So what do you mean when you say "no its more film like"?

I have an AE100 and want a brighter better image. The Sony is rated at 1200 lumens, so is the TX200 which is meant to be quite a bright projector. Is the Sony in the same league in brightness as the TX200?

Thanks
Anim

Is it not true that (unless you're home cinema is in a room with black walls, ceiling and floor) that the brighter the projector, the lower your ansi contrast is going to be, as light bounces back onto the screen.

A low light projector with total room light contros would be the ideal setup??

Well with higher light output you also need higher contrast to match it. Calibrated projectors in total light controlled rooms often only put out about 300 to 600 lumens as far as i know.

You also want a decent optics path that doesnt leak light and all the light is directed at the screen and not around it.

Light bouncing off walls will diminish the contrast too.

But my other half wants to watch the projector in the day time too (she doesnt care about contrast tbh) and with our curtains drawn some light still gets through. Not much but in summer its enough to make the AE100 image vanish.

I just want a decent projector that will fit both my night time viewing pleasure (total darkness) and also be able to output a picture for the daytime too (setting contrast aside) but with a visible picture.

Anim

Today i recieved my HS60 and it is great.
My previous projector (Sony vpl-vw12ht) had an option in the service menu called blanking. Does anyone know if the HS60 has this option, couse i cannot find it in the service menu.
I need this because my screen is not exactly 16:9 its just of a few pixels.

Thanx in advance

Proc33d

Well I bought my HS60 to replace a NEC 6PG CRT projector-well not replace,it's just getting harder to replace parts.

Anyway .I'm used to great blacks and great definition within those blacks and I'm using a HTPC with a NVIdia 6600gt card with Zoomplayer,with either DSCaler 5 or WINDVD 6 and either in or out FFDshow.

Ran the HS60 straight out of the box through the HTPC at 720p..good ,but not that good-deep black was there but no definition between the deep blacks-[a staple with CRT]
Grey scale seemed to be squashed somewhat pre calibration.

By the way I'm using a 1.2 matte white screen.

To cut a long story short,here's how to get CRT front projection quality out of a HS60.
[This might only apply to 6600gt or newer card owners-or cards that have gamma control software to the exstent of the NVIdia ones]

Start in Cinema mode,use a setup disc like Digital video essentials to get you brightness/contrast correct-this will make sure your source is outputting correctly.

Then go to your NVidia desktop screen contols and using the software to ajust the brightness first and then the gamma using the color sliders.

Then go into the HS60's sub menus and put in CLK's settings-custom color temp.
Incase you missed them
Gain
R -20
G -9
B -4
Bias
R -16
G 1
B 17

You will now have a pretty well close to D65 color on a 1.2 or their abouts matte white screen.......you will find there is a problem though....all the colors will be in the correct proportions to each other but will seem rather washed out.

Simple solution,Again in the HS60"s menu...just up the color control...this keep everthing in balance but ups the color saturation......don't beleive me ..try it....instant CRT performance from a LCD PJ...I only found this out by accident.....what a mind blow that was,I really didn't think this PJ could ever attain that sort of quality...boy was I pleasently surprised.
Enjoy Merry Xmas.

Blackwiggle how did you find the brightness of the projector on a 1.2 gain screen i have a cheap 1.1 screen and find it a bit dim i can get a good 1.2 screen just need to know how much better it would be thanks

It depends if you have a light controlled/or partially light controlled room.
I do have a light controlled room,if you don't it won't really make much difference what gain screen you have.
The difference between 1.1g and 1.2 g is minuscule to say the least.
Where you will find a difference is if you can control the reflected light bouncing back off a white ceiling,that's where most of the washout occurs even after wall painting.
It's all about reflected light and where you are seated it at vis a vie the projection angle the PJ is seated at.
If you have your PJ projecting from Below your viewing height the washout won't be as bad as if you were to have your PJ ceiling mounted.

CKL is the hitachi TX200 review in the making it would be interesting to know if matches the HS60 better then the rest of the D5 PJ:s

Even if the review is not up yet i guess you have tested it, can you just give us a hint :)

here in sweden TX200 is considered to be the best of D5 do you agree

It depends if you have a light controlled/or partially light controlled room.
I do have a light controlled room,if you don't it won't really make much difference what gain screen you have.
The difference between 1.1g and 1.2 g is minuscule to say the least.
Where you will find a difference is if you can control the reflected light bouncing back off a white ceiling,that's where most of the washout occurs even after wall painting.
It's all about reflected light and where you are seated it at vis a vie the projection angle the PJ is seated at.
If you have your PJ projecting from Below your viewing height the washout won't be as bad as if you were to have your PJ ceiling mounted.

Damn!!....lol....l've just installed all my hdmi/component cabling up for a ceiling mount setup ......if l run a extended ceiling mount ........say 1metre down from the ceiling , will this help with reducing washout? ( l will be painting ceiling and walls a flat blackish purple) as l'm pretty keen to go with this projector but am concerned about brightness too.....cheers ken

Damn!!....lol....l've just installed all my hdmi/component cabling up for a ceiling mount setup ......if l run a extended ceiling mount ........say 1metre down from the ceiling , will this help with reducing washout? ( l will be painting ceiling and walls a flat blackish purple) as l'm pretty keen to go with this projector but am concerned about brightness too.....cheers ken

Ken..........going for a coffee table mounted projector calls for a retro reflective screen.

However if using an angular reflective screen with some gain & ceiling mounted projector, with your dark ceilings, you won't have any major issues.

My intensions are to coffee table mount a HS60 with CC20R & 81B filters(as suggested by CKL) projecting to a 92" High Power retro reflective screen.

Ken..........going for a coffee table mounted projector calls for a retro reflective screen.

However if using an angular reflective screen with some gain & ceiling mounted projector, with your dark ceilings, you won't have any major issues.

My intensions are to coffee table mount a HS60 with CC20R & 81B filters(as suggested by CKL) projecting to a 92" High Power retro reflective screen.



highjinx, hows it going mate.........what do you mean by an angular reflective screen?..........l was thinking of getting an 100'' lp morgan or screen science (1.2 gain ) as my room is 7.5m x 5.2m.........will it be advantageous to run the projector lower from ceiling ?......l guess the only concern about long ceiling mounts for me is it might let the projector shake when running high sub volumes.......l could'nt put this on a coffee table as it would probably get knocked or somthing by the kids..talk to you soon...cheers ken

highjinx, hows it going mate.........what do you mean by an angular reflective screen?..........l was thinking of getting an 100'' lp morgan or screen science (1.2 gain ) as my room is 7.5m x 5.2m.........will it be advantageous to run the projector lower from ceiling ?......l guess the only concern about long ceiling mounts for me is it might let the projector shake when running high sub volumes.......l could'nt put this on a coffee table as it would probably get knocked or somthing by the kids..talk to you soon...cheers ken

Going good mate!............angular reflective is where the light hits the screen and reflects away from the projector toward the seating area, retro reflective reflects light back toward the projector.

The screen you are using is an angular one. No advantage in lowering the projector from the ceiling as long as the lens offset is within the recomended parameters for the screen height and throw distance.

With that screen and the HS60 you should get around (post calibrated) 14ftl on high bulb setting and around 9ftl when the bulb has aged, again high bulb setting. Ok for movies.........but not for sport.............a smaller screen or higher gain may be called for!

CKL is the hitachi TX200 review in the making it would be interesting to know if matches the HS60 better then the rest of the D5 PJ:s

Even if the review is not up yet i guess you have tested it, can you just give us a hint :)

here in sweden TX200 is considered to be the best of D5 do you agree


I agree TX200 is the best among D5 projectors but still behind HS60.

I agree TX200 is the best among D5 projectors but still behind HS60.


CKL, how would you say TX200 compares to sony vpl-HS50 is it better or worse? Here in Europe they both go for apox. the same price.

HS50 is the best, of the lcd projectors, for contrast and black level..........in other areas, it may not be 'the best', but it is more than good enough........I had an ae900 that was good, but nowhere near as good as the HS on black level...........

if black level is important to you, only the HS60 is better...

Forget about how much better the HS60 is in picture quality versus those D5 units, however it is unfair to compare them in HK, since the price difference is almost double. So, I still envy you folks in Australia are so lucky to have Sony n Panny at same price level.

Forget about how much better the HS60 is in picture quality versus those D5 units, however it is unfair to compare them in HK, since the price difference is almost double. So, I still envy you folks in Australia are so lucky to have Sony n Panny at same price level.

Yeah sweet,but from what I'm hearing from a reliable source is that YOU guys will get the "ruby" version that uses the same lamp as the HS50/60 as well as the High Wattage version Long before we will. :eek:

All sales of QUALIA products have been suspended in OZ since oct 2005 ,new release-rebadged versions of this line will /should be available circa late feb 2006

Anyword on when this thing is supposed to hit the U.S.?

Which?
The HS60 or the QUALIA lite version.

HS60-don't think you guys will ever get it IMHO.I think we in OZ are being used as guineapigs to test out what's to come.[We have a high rate of early adoptees per capita]

"Ruby" Lite,probably using the same LCD panels as the HS60 but with full HDCP-HDMI enabled interface would be my guess...my theory behind this is that the OZ DTV is far behind the 1080p rates you can get in the USA....less of a problem regarding HDCP in OZ vis a vie the USA.
What does that have to do with HDDVD replay you might ask?
The problem is not with the replay,it's to do with the copying of that replay,most is done from free to air TV,our best case senario is 720p and thats only one channel.sparodically.
The uptake here regarding DTV is abissmale,reason being the vast distances regarding relay towers,and since most of the population lives near the coastal areas it is not finacially viable to install these relay towers.

The US is getting the HS-51A which is the same as the HS-60 only with the ethernet port so you can use the image software. It will start shipping in January here in the states as a running change to the 51. Same price.

I haven't heard anything about a Qualia lite though, only the Ruby.

Oh good! I was thinking about getting the optoma h78 but it sounds like the new sony hs60 (hs51a) has amazing black levels at a better price. Thanks for the info.

It still said LMP-H130 lamp in my HS60 manual.

However, one very interesting comment from CKL when watching the unit in my place, is that the HS60 looks as good as the Ruby at the Sony demo show, which took place about 1 month ago.

I thought there is only Coke lite, n now we have Qualia lite. Let's drink to that !!!

:) :) :)

Thought I'd ask if anyone has a view on a choice between these two projectors for use in a typical living room (light-coloured ceiling, windows with dark blinds, medium coloured walls) on a 100 to 106 inch screen.

Based purely on specs I'm leaning towards the epson TW600 as it is supposed to be brighter. However, reviews on the epson are pretty light on the ground, whereas the feedback on sony is pretty encouraging. Unfortunately I live 4 hours from the nearest showroom, so any purchase I make is going to be sight unseen. The price differential between the two in Australia is only around the equivalent of US$400 (and even at retail on the epson we are talking less than US$2400), so price isn't a factor.

Check out SonyStyle USA - at the following link:

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/+INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?ProductSKU=VPLHS51A&Dept=tvvideo&CategoryName=tv_ProjectionTVs_RearProjection_55to80TVs

It appears that the US will get:

Cineza® LCD Front Projector
VPL-HS51A
MSRP: $3,499.99

New and improved high contrast ratio of up to 10,000:1
All Range Crisp Focus (ARC-F) lens
Lens Shift Function
Lamp Life Up to 3000 Hours
HDMI Digital Interface

Owners Manual PDF:
http://www.sonystyle.com/intershoproot/eCS/Store/en/documents/specifications/VPLHS51.pdf

Waiting on the USA reviews

However, one very interesting comment from CKL when watching the unit in my place, is that the HS60 looks as good as the Ruby at the Sony demo show, which took place about 1 month ago.

I thought he think that Ruby public demo sucks! :D

regards,

Li On

Hi Li On,

I know, I know. Did you get your new projector yet ?

Check out SonyStyle USA - at the following link:

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/+INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?ProductSKU=VPLHS51A&Dept=tvvideo&CategoryName=tv_ProjectionTVs_RearProjection_55to80TVs

It appears that the US will get:

Cineza® LCD Front Projector
VPL-HS51A
MSRP: $3,499.99

New and improved high contrast ratio of up to 10,000:1
All Range Crisp Focus (ARC-F) lens
Lens Shift Function
Lamp Life Up to 3000 Hours
HDMI Digital Interface

Owners Manual PDF:
http://www.sonystyle.com/intershoproot/eCS/Store/en/documents/specifications/VPLHS51.pdf

Waiting on the USA reviews


WOW!

The Sony store says Shipping availability:
Usually ships next business day.

Now all we need to know is when we can find one from a store other than sony so we don't have to pay full msrp. :)

Just placed my order for the 51a through Sony. It won't get processed until first week of January though so I won't see the PJ until mid month I guess. Oh well. I didn't want to pay full retail through Sonystyle just to get it earlier. My 51 should hold me over just fine.

The HS51A's are in stock in the US and shipping to dealers as of a day or two ago. My PO was processed on Thursday and would have shipped on that day, or perhaps on Friday. Hope to see it before we close for the New Year holiday next Friday.

Are there any updates? Have the HS51A's already shipped?

Are there any updates? Have the HS51A's already shipped?

Sony style and Onecall.com show the HS51A as instock.