Thanks Pooperscooper,

I just read in my 56TXi owners manual on how to enable the iLink.

My remaining concern is how to answer the questions on the 79AVi's "Setup Navigator." Do I tell the 79AVi setup that I don't have either an analog or digital connection to the receiver? I assume these are the correct responses because the iLink is enabled in another menu.

Thanks Pooperscooper,

I just read in my 56TXi owners manual on how to enable the iLink.

My remaining concern is how to answer the questions on the 79AVi's "Setup Navigator." Do I tell the 79AVi setup that I don't have either an analog or digital connection to the receiver? I assume these are the correct responses because the iLink is enabled in another menu.

I don't think it makes any difference since I-LINK is a different ball game but I answered no to both analog and digital connections and I ONLY use the I-LINK for everything. I have the 79 linked to a 74 receiver and it works great.

Sergio

Thanks Sergio,

This is exactly what I was looking for. Have a great Holiday season!

What is the benefit of turning black down to -1 on the 79AVi? Is there a reason to make the change on the DVD player vs the projector/TV? I did a basic calibration the other day using DVE and didn't need to make any changes to the 79AVi. Even on the Panny AE900 the changes from default were minor. I ended up turning brightness down 1 notch, color needed to go to -5 to even out the blue test and that was about it. Does this sound normal or should I have required more tweaking as this was my first time using DVE.

jcgIIRC, the -1 brighness setting on the 79avi was based on "measured" findings with the 59avi. Nobody has done the same type of measurements on the 79avi that Carl did on the 59avi. The settings on you PJ can only be confirmed by you (you can see the filters and patterns, etc) or actual ISF calibration type measurements.

larry

I guess I'm still trying to see if I should do this on the 79Avi or on the projector. If I turn brightness down -1 on the 79Avi, doesn't that just mean I would need to turn it back up a notch on the projector? Or does setting brightness on the 79Avi do something different? This is my first time really doing calibrations with DVE so some of these questions might sound a bit stupid.

jcg

IIRC, the -1 brighness setting on the 79avi was based on "measured" findings with the 59avi. Nobody has done the same type of measurements on the 79avi that Carl did on the 59avi. The settings on you PJ can only be confirmed by you (you can see the filters and patterns, etc) or actual ISF calibration type measurements.

larry

The 59avi settings were determined by Carl using Avia Pro grayscale patterns and his lumagen scaler which could display the "IRE" (bad term for digital data) level. At neutral settings the 59avi did not output "correct" digital video based on the known encoding of the Avia patterns. Some people here are using these settings on the 79avi. Ideally leaving all player settings at neutral (the ones that modify video data) should output the YCbCr 4:2:2 from the MPEG decoder at 480i. This wasn't the case with 59avi (and Carl had to use RGB) and it has yet to be determined if it is the same case with the 79avi. There's a good chance that it may be the same. If you make adjustments on the player, there's a good chance you are changing the data that is coming from the DVD. I don't know about you, but I don't buy DVD players so they can change what somebody else went to a lot of trouble to put on the disc. :) But without some way to measure the player's output with known patterns you have no idea whether or not the DVE "blacker than black" bars are being output with a luma (Y) value of 15, 16, 17, or some other value. Turning up the brightness on the display should make them appear if any of those values are output. But they are only encoded at one of those values (something below 16). So, try calibrating with the player settings at neutral and try it with what others have been using here. Use the one you like best. Have you read this thread at the top? http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=494606

I probably didn't answer your question, but I'm pretty sure I gave you enough stuff for you to go look for and read about. DVE does a decent job of explaining what each calibration does and why.

larry

Larry,
I`m waiting for a 79 and have an 09 still in service ( and you know that ;) ).
Anyway my question is , I will be using it ( at some piont . i hope ) with my Sony plasma.
Now , we all know that the DV-09 does not pass BTB , however the picture has always looked fine. When I had the Sony 3100ES , i thought that the picture was on the dark side , would I have a similar problem with the 79 , or am I just guessing !
You see , I agree with you that setting on a dvd player should be a-ok from the factory , so if the 79 passes BTB then should I expect a dark picture or a more detailed picture , Thanks :D
Gary
PS: Have you ever bought a Jeep !
I hear that there is a great dealership in your town :)
Hapy Holidays !

If its not passing BTB then you loose picture detail as the blacks will be clipped(if thats the right term) so yeah will be darker.

On my S97 if i back brightness right down with the dvd player to "0" it no longer passes BTB, but if i put it to +1 it then pases BTB, and i then calibrate from there.

Full range RGB on the 989 still looses BTB for me, cant figure out why its doing that. but it is, need to play a bit more with it.

I feel I should mention this, even though it's a tad OT for this thread, but it does fit in the current discussion. This thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=618718&page=1&pp=30 talks about 480i over HDMI, but there is some fascinating (to me anyway) info there and one piece appears to answer a question I've had as to how Y/C delay can be introduced in a completely digital video path. Some of you may recognize the names "sspears" and "dr1394". If not, most of the time you want to pay attention to what they say, especially when it comes to digital video formats and processing. Carry on... :)

larry

On my S97 if i back brightness right down with the dvd player to "0" it no longer passes BTB, but if i put it to +1 it then pases BTB, and i then calibrate from there. This phenomenon is what I was alluding to in my previous post. I'd bet real money that once you bump to +1 the BTB data is no longer BTB, just "black" and is output. If the player truly passes BTB, you should be able to keep lowering brightness on the player and still see the BTB bars by adjusting brightness (higher) on your display. (I'm assuming "0" setting is in the "middle" of the adjustment range. Even if it's not there's something fishy.) Some may think this nit-picking is somewhat anal, and maybe it is. :) But, like I said before, I spend my $$$ on video equipment to reproduce what is actually on the DVD, not just give me "most" of the video.

larry

Jedi,
Dustin answered your BTB question. And, no I've never bought a Jeep. Although, I wish they were my kind of vehicle because the dealer is only about 1.5 miles from where I live. :) (instead of 20 miles or so for my current car).

larry

I just bought this Pioneer 79avi and I should be getting it by Friday or so. What pre/pros have the i link for the SACD and DVDA? IS it only Pioneer?

Ok

Larry, i dont get that. if the BTB bars are visible then surly you are passing BTB.

I have now got the bars to appear with FULL RANGE RGB applied.
On the pio i have brightness set at midway (before i had the sliders down to minimum, ie far left). If on the player i just go to -1, then the BTB bars disappear. set at mid way i can lower the brightness on the projector with no issues. I tried a disc where i now detail gets clipped if you dont pass BTB.
Sure enought the detail is there and as soon as i hit that -1 point on the pio its gone, but if i use the PJs brightness setting the detail gradualy dims out.

Weird.

I have a read of your link to see if that helps, OH full range RGB made quite a difference to the colours, they realy are vivid now.

Also i should state im feeding an H79 PJ with 720p so thats HDMI to DVI

Dustin,
With YCbCr video, Y being 16-234, "black" to "white". Assume (and I think this is true) BTB bar is encoded as Y=15. If "neutral" setting on player does not pass BTB (0 < Y < 16) then no amount of adjusting brightness on display will show the "bar". Data is not transmitted. Increase brightness +1 on player. This causes Y values to be increased +1. So now BTB bar encoded at Y=15 is now Y=16="black". Data makes it to display and now you can see the "bar" when you raise brightness a tinch, but it is not BTB. It's possible that +1 on the player adds 2 to Y. So BTB pattern now shows up as y=17, slightly above black. This is why raising brightness on the display allows you to see true BTB data. The Y values are elevated enough to make the pattern(s) become visible on the display. This is also why you want to make the Y=15 BTB bar just be "not seen" on the display. This will allow Y=16 "black" data to be the blackest your display can make. Conversion to RGB shouldn't make a difference. I believe "black" would be "16, 16, 16".

larry

but if i go +1 on the player to see the bars then calibrate back via the display to hide the bars, is that not the same thing.

What confuses me is that, i can see the black level being clipped at -1, and the detail in black areas instantly reappearing at 0 brightness. or is that black crush?

Flip me it cant be this hard surely.

Or is my issue with the display setup? would an incorrect Gamma setting cause a lose of BTB?

but if i go +1 on the player to see the bars then calibrate back via the display to hide the bars, is that not the same thing. Maybe. It depends on how much Y is changed in the player and display for a given "tick". Tough to measure/instrument. This is why it is preferred that the player just "work properly". :)
What confuses me is that, i can see the black level being clipped at -1, and the detail in black areas instantly reappearing at 0 brightness. or is that black crush? -1 setting on player should still show the BTB pattern on display by raising brightness on display if everything is working properly. 0< Y < 254 should be transmitted. You're right, it shouldn't be this hard. Read MPEG from disc, decode properly, send to display. :) These solid color patterns shouldn't pose a problem for the decoder and even the deinterlacer.

larry

Bizarre problem this morning.

Fired up the system this morning, and today the Iscan HD+ will not accept the signal from the 79avi. I get a flashing blue light on the front of the HD+. According to DVDO's web site this has something to do with the display not being HDCP compatible, although DVDO's web site looks like it may have a typo:

5. Why is the blue ‘On/Remote Standby’ LED blinking on the front panel of my iScan HD+?


The ‘On/Remote Standby’ LED on the iScan HD+ will blink green if the iScan is passing an HDCP-encrypted DVI input signal through to a display that is not HDCP-compliant (DVI or Analog). Use component connections from your source(s) to your iScan HD+ to eliminate this issue.

Note that the question refers to blue, but the answer refers to green.


The $64,000 question: Why have I been able to watch DVDs with this combination all week?

Signal chain is the following:

Pioneer 79avi
HDMI/DVI dongle
DVI cable to HD+
DVI cable to Mitsubishi WS-65613

I've tried powering both units off and on. No dice.

The weird thing is that when I power on the Pioneer, I'm able to see the Pioneer logo on the screeen, but immediately after that, I get a blue screen and the blue light on the HD+ is blinking.

Is this a handshake thing?

Larry, two final question/thought.

i set the pioneer to output BTB properly so i cant see the 2 outer black bars. If i were then to rise the projectors brightness should i only see the four inner bars of the DVE pluge pattern because BTB is set correctly at the DVD player?.
If that's correct then that's where i have been getting mixed up.

Also i noticed if i set the PJ to 0 brightness and set the pio at 0IRE i could get the third black bar to appear by increasing the brightness control on the pio to almost max. if i then back off again to hide the bar does that now mean i would still be passing BTB at 0IRE as well?


Tricky stuff, but grateful for your input

Heavyharmonies,
This is disturbing to me since I have just ordered a 79avi and plan to run it through my HD+. I know mimason and levesque have used this path without reporting any problems. Also DVDO lists the 59avi as one of their models tested for 480i digital input. Are you sending 480i from the 79avi?

I have occasionally had the infamous blinking blue light when switching from input to input on the HD+. Both of the signals were compliant, but it's like the HD+ got confused for a second and just locked itself up. This has always been remedied by rebooting the HD+.

Dustin

You shouldn't use the three stripe pattern on DVE for setting brightness. You should use the SMPTE color bar test pattern. You will notice the three black stripes at the bottom right of the screen. Set your brightness so that the darkest just disappears and then raise it until it is just visible. This is the same pattern studios use when mastering DVD and has a higher APL than the three stripe pattern. So it is a nice overall for ANSI and ON/OFF contrast.

Thanks Dustin , for your reply :)
With your help and the help of this thread , I think I`ll be in good shape when my 79 arrives.
One other thing , when I had the 3100ES the picture was darker , but not that dark and the picture quality was great , just had to many other issues.
I`m realy hopeing that the SACD quality is better than the Sony , to me the 3100 souned "tinnie" or sharp.
So with the 79 having B&B d/a converters sould be sweet :D
OK --
How does the 79 sound when playing SACD`s ? Anyone ? Thank you :D
Gary
O__BTW , Larry , The owner of Lahti`s Jeep is my brother-in-law !
Let know if you ever decide to go 4 well`n LOL
I saw that you are in Leominster so I just couldn`t resist !!:)
O- I know what you mean , I drive a Honda :D

Dustin

You shouldn't use the three stripe pattern on DVE for setting brightness. You should use the SMPTE color bar test pattern. You will notice the three black stripes at the bottom right of the screen. Set your brightness so that the darkest just disappears and then raise it until it is just visible. This is the same pattern studios use when mastering DVD and has a higher APL than the three stripe pattern. So it is a nice overall for ANSI and ON/OFF contrast.


THX Kriss, were my other thoughts correct though about BTB

Dustin,
I don't have a 79avi, so I can't play with it. Carl, in the 59avi thread, went through the various settings an deduced what was needed to get the 59avi to pass all the data correctly with the Avia Pro test patterns. Someone who lives in the Long Island, NY area (I think) with a 79avi needs to let Carl borrow it. :)

larry

Larry, I basically used Carl's settings on his 59Avi as a guideline. I just made a few minor tweaks such as setting black level 3 notches lower instead of 1 notch lower. I then tested this setting with DVE and they were mostly spot on and pass BTB.

Hopefully Carl will get his hands on a 79Avi and post his findings. Until then, IMHO, the settings he posted on the 59Avi thread are still applicable to the 79Avi.

When adjusting for BTB, I compare (eyeball) my adjustments to that of Direct. I do my adjustments in such a way that it almost gives the same brightness, contrast as Direct then I check for BTB on the DVE disc. The direct setting would have been perfect for me (contrast and brightness wise) except that it did not pass BTB.

Heavyharmonies,

Unplug dvdo, turn off 79avi unplug and retry. Also, make sure you are not scaling to a user defined mode....just send 720p or 1080i. I have had this happen to me when I do horizontal and vertical shifts if I go out of range. Do you also have DVDO set up to RGB and not YCbCr?

Jedi29

The 79 sounds great with SACD but I only used the I-LINK. I need to find a way to reduce BASS, though. It is VERY strong.

Jedi29

The 79 sounds great with SACD but I only used the I-LINK. I need to find a way to reduce BASS, though. It is VERY strong.Didn't you do the auto cal with the MCACC in the 74txi?

larry

Didn't you do the auto cal with the MCACC in the 74txi?

larry

Yes, I did but this has nothing to do with the 79 or has? When I did the MCACC the 79 wasn't even in the game .Are you saying there is something regarding the I-LINK when we do the MCACC?

I don't have any excess of bass when a DVD is played but listening to a SACD it seems that the bass is somehow boosted a lot. Please let me know if there is something else I should have done.

Thanks

sergio

Sergio, I sent you a PM.

larry

Thanks for the reply Sergio, but I have an older amp and will be using the analog outputs.
I`m waiting... still waiting for my 79 to show up, I have a couple of SACD`s so I`ll be sure to let you guys know how it sounds using my Yamaha DSP-A1 :D
It will almost have to sound better than the 3100ES ( I hope )
Also , a stupid thing to ask , but... has anyone hooked up there 79 using both HDMI and Component ?
I tried that with the 3100 and it didn`t like it much.
Anyway , with the 79 I only plan to use HDMI , just curio , that all !! :D
Gary

Heavyharmonies,

Unplug dvdo, turn off 79avi unplug and retry. Also, make sure you are not scaling to a user defined mode....just send 720p or 1080i. I have had this happen to me when I do horizontal and vertical shifts if I go out of range. Do you also have DVDO set up to RGB and not YCbCr?

This did the trick, although I have no idea why: powering down both units, disconnecting the HDMI connection at the 79avi, powering both up, then reinserting the HDMI plug.

For the life of me, I have no idea what triggers the miscommunication between the two units, since once I reestablished the video feed, I went ahead and powered off both units without disconnecting and then repowered them on, in a hope that this would trigger the miscommunication, hence it would be predictable. Nope. Powering on and off both units multiple timed did not retrigger the miscommunication... YET.

Disconcerting.

By the way, what stupid bastard designed the spec on the HDMI plug? That's just *begging* to be broken, especially with the weight of an HDMI/DVI dongle *and* the DVI cable end hanging off the end of the damned thing.

Thanks!

I agree the dongle is heavy

"You should use the SMPTE color bar test pattern."

Is that on the DVE disc or elsewhere? If elsewhere where can i get that test pattern, as i could not find it on DVE

It is the color bars test on the DVE disc. When you see the full SMPTE color bars look at the bottom right of the image and you should see the black strips. They are small though.

By the way, what stupid bastard designed the spec on the HDMI plug? That's just *begging* to be broken, especially with the weight of an HDMI/DVI dongle *and* the DVI cable end hanging off the end of the damned thing.

Why not use a cable with HDMI on one end and DVI on the other? Or why not use an HDMI-HDMI cable with a DVI dongle on the DVI end?

I'd also recommend staying away from the garden-hose style cables that try to impress you with how heavy and inflexible they are. The lighter, more flexible cables are just as good.

--
Steve

Okay so I got a 79AVi today and did some testing. First off, I don't know why anyone is having any issues with BTB. I set the player up for HDMI out, 720P, Black level 0 IRE, and video output to 12 bit Component and it passes BTB just fine. The ouput is 4:2:2 YCbCr. Didn't have to adjust anything in terms of black or white levels in the player. Auto 2 is still the preferred de-interlacing mode.

But this player has some really interesting problems that I am investigating. I love finding completely new stuff!! And this one is pretty bad! Sorry I can't say more.

But this player has some really interesting problems that I am investigating. I love finding completely new stuff!! And this one is pretty bad! Sorry I can't say more.

No worries Kris. You usually help the manufacturer improve their product via a software update, so anything you find might be considered a good thang.

;-)

Okay so I got a 79AVi today and did some testing. First off, I don't know why anyone is having any issues with BTB. I set the player up for HDMI out, 720P, Black level 0 IRE, and video output to 12 bit Component and it passes BTB just fine. The ouput is 4:2:2 YCbCr. Didn't have to adjust anything in terms of black or white levels in the player. Auto 2 is still the preferred de-interlacing mode.

But this player has some really interesting problems that I am investigating. I love finding completely new stuff!! And this one is pretty bad! Sorry I can't say more.


Man! I purchased one of these from the Sound Pros and love it, I guess we are all going to start finding faults with our 79avi's as soon as Kris tells us what they are. I am going to watch one last movie tonight in sheer bliss before I am told whats wrong with it.

Man! I purchased one of these from the Sound Pros and love it, I guess we are all going to start finding faults with our 79avi's as soon as Kris tells us what they are. I am going to watch one last movie tonight in sheer bliss before I am told whats wrong with it.

If the problem is that "bad" I wonder how prevalant it is, since I haven't read any posts anywhere throwing off alarm bells...

For now I'll just enjoy the 79avi. Maybe I shouldn't read this thread after today... ;)

But this player has some really interesting problems that I am investigating. I love finding completely new stuff!! And this one is pretty bad! Sorry I can't say more.

Kris,

Could you please be more specific. I am taking back a 59avi I bought this month for a 79avi on Saturday. I have no problem with the 59avi but have read from several members that the 79avi was an improvement over the 59avi. If there are issues I will gladly keep the 59avi.

Thanks for your help, Bill

So is this DVD player better then Denon 2910?

But this player has some really interesting problems that I am investigating. I love finding completely new stuff!! And this one is pretty bad! Sorry I can't say more.

Is this something that you are seeing at 480i too?

...

But this player has some really interesting problems that I am investigating. I love finding completely new stuff!! And this one is pretty bad! Sorry I can't say more.

Wow, talk about leaving us hangin'!

Not seeing it at 480i

Keep the 59AVi

Haven't done extensive testing with "real world" material yet. But the problem is pretty bad with test patterns.

If anyone here has the WHQL test discs, go under the cadence tests that use the horizontal and vertical resolution wedges spinning in a circle and you'll see what I am talking about. It is painfully obvious.

Not seeing it at 480i

Keep the 59AVi

Haven't done extensive testing with "real world" material yet. But the problem is pretty bad with test patterns.

If anyone here has the WHQL test discs, go under the cadence tests that use the horizontal and vertical resolution wedges spinning in a circle and you'll see what I am talking about. It is painfully obvious.

Ouch.

I have been so happy with my 59avi, I was pretty sure that I would not be upgrading anyway....until Blu-Ray/HD-DVD.

Kris- any chance that this is something that can be fixed with a firmware update?

Not sure as I've never seen this problem with a player before. I have to see what it does with regular playback of DVDs. If it is something that only happens with test material, it may not be a deal breaker, but it is pretty bad with those. So that would make me feel that there has to be some type of compromise with resolution with motion even if you aren't seeing it right off. I am going to let Pioneer know about it and see what they come up with though.

Not sure as I've never seen this problem with a player before. I have to see what it does with regular playback of DVDs. If it is something that only happens with test material, it may not be a deal breaker, but it is pretty bad with those. So that would make me feel that there has to be some type of compromise with resolution with motion even if you aren't seeing it right off. I am going to let Pioneer know about it and see what they come up with though.

Thanks for the responses Kris, we appreciate it. Looking forward to the complete review, and Pioneers response.

Why not use a cable with HDMI on one end and DVI on the other? Or why not use an HDMI-HDMI cable with a DVI dongle on the DVI end?

I'd also recommend staying away from the garden-hose style cables that try to impress you with how heavy and inflexible they are. The lighter, more flexible cables are just as good.

--
Steve

Anyone have a good source for an HDMI to DVI cable my pioneer 503cmx only takes DVI, and from I have been reading, many think the HDMI will provide a better signal in. My plasma is the 503cmx with the aurora card for the dvi input.

I belive that card does one d/a conversion unfortunately, they never did a purely all digital card for these 3rd gen panels that I know of, kind of a shame.

I have been following this thread and am considering the 79avi but it sounds like there might be a few bugs vs. the 59avi, so I am following it very closely.

I wonder if trying the HDMI outputs from my Denon 2910 and oppo (due to be delivered today :D ) would yield a better picture. Makes me wonder if my 3rd gen pioneer handles the 10bit output this 79avi can output as well.

Kris

Any anomaly having to do with component and HDMI being connected at the same time? I remember some menu access being unavailable when both are active.

E

I haven't even touched component video yet, or plugged in any cables.

OK - I misread #787

BTW - Merry Xmas Weekend to all in this fine thread!

E

This thread reflects the essence of a point a tried to make in an earlier post, not to start a sh--storm but you got alot of heavyweight videophiles here who bought the 79AVI in good faith assuming that for around a grand, you get some pretty bigtime build quality and something at least as good as the respectable 59avi. Then you got several months of people buying the machine and a pretty optimistic thread with favorable early returns and then Kris gets his hands on it and throws out the caveat that there may be a fatal flaw here and the sentiment changes on a dime. Before Kris gives us the fatal flaw, for all of you who are the first to chime in on various threads about what they know about DVD players, whats' the flaw?

This thread reflects the essence of a point a tried to make in an earlier post, not to start a sh--storm but you got alot of heavyweight videophiles here who bought the 79AVI in good faith assuming that for around a grand, you get some pretty bigtime build quality and something at least as good as the respectable 59avi. Then you got several months of people buying the machine and a pretty optimistic thread with favorable early returns and then Kris gets his hands on it and throws out the caveat that there may be a fatal flaw here and the sentiment changes on a dime. Before Kris gives us the fatal flaw, for all of you who are the first to chime in on various threads about what they know about DVD players, whats' the flaw?Excellent point; I (for one) was ready to pull the trigger on the DV-79AVi, but am waiting until I hear what the flaw is. In some respects that may prove to be unwarranted caution, but I'd rather wait and see. Given the praise this unit has received, I wonder if the flaw will be something that is significant in normal viewing. Just because you have flaws on a test pattern does NOT make for automatic carryover to normal viewing. I certainly respect Kris's opinions, but let's hear more before casting aspersions on what seems to be a very good product...

Before Kris explains what is wrong with this DVD player, I am not sure between Levesque, Rob, Larry or Bytehoven who owns this DVD player but am curious that whomever has this DVD player to get a heads up on what the issue (s) is/are. Surely you guys are on to the issues on to the significant issues with this player so there is no need for the suspense. The reason I ask for your opinions is that there has been 27 pages of generally decent feedback leading up to Kris's comments. Thanks.

What ever the said flaw is, it will not alter the performance with my unit as I have it in my system. Bottom line - outstanding in my system the way I'm using it. Watching movies, and not testing the player.

Let's not forget real world usage, and at least remember that every unit off the block will not be perfect.

E

Yucky news Kris!

Anyways it's an improvement over my old Sony 975 and hearing about Kris' unique discovery certainly is ... fascinating. It is worth nothing that many of the previous posters (the hardcore videophiles) are using the 79 as a transport only to a scaler and as Kris noted, 480i is ok.

In my experience I have noticed deinterlacing flaws (I believe - jaggies and some line twitter - Pulp Fiction cafe scenes are a notable occurance)

I suppose it really hits home the message that Kris has been preaching all along - not all tests are as important as others and the tests don't cover some issues that are potential dealbreakers such as MB or strange audio delays.

Looking forward to your reports Kris and thanks for all the hard work.

What ever the said flaw is, it will not alter the performance with my unit as I have it in my system. Bottom line - outstanding in my system the way I'm using it. Watching movies, and not testing the player.

Let's not forget real world useage, and at least remember that every unit off the block will not be perfect.

E

No doubt and agreed. My humble position is that this is a golden opportunity for those that claim excellence in understanding the dynamics of a DVD player's visual capabilities to dazzle us with their knowledge. Anyone who bought this DVD player who has been active in voicing opinions about what makes a good DVD player and what a flawed a DVD player has the floor here.......Just curious, tell me what the issues are?

Yucky news Kris!

Anyways it's an improvement over my old Sony 975 and hearing about Kris' unique discovery certainly is ... fascinating. It is worth nothing that many of the previous posters (the hardcore videophiles) are using the 79 as a transport only to a scaler and as Kris noted, 480i is ok.

In my experience I have noticed deinterlacing flaws (I believe - jaggies and some line twitter - Pulp Fiction cafe scenes are a notable occurance)

I suppose it really hits home the message that Kris has been preaching all along - not all tests are as important as others and the tests don't cover some issues that are potential dealbreakers such as MB or strange audio delays.

Looking forward to your reports Kris and thanks for all the hard work.

Dude, with all due respect, you are just scratching the surface here, I only have three hundred and some posts and am a nubile. You got dudes here that are into the thousands so guys like you and me can only know so much. With that in mind, I view this thread as a good opportunity for the independent thinkers to step up to the plate before we get Kris's diagnosis. It is going to be interesting to see the dissection of the 79avi, particularly the major flaws before we hear from Kris. I'll sit back and listen....thank you in advance.

Dude, with all due respect, you are just scratching the surface here, I only have three hundred and some posts and am a nubile. You got dudes here that are into the thousands so guys like you and me can only know so much. With that in mind, I view this thread as a good opportunity for the independent thinkers to step up to the plate before we get Kris's diagnosis. It is going to be interesting to see the dissection of the 79avi, particularly the major flaws before we hear from Kris. I'll sit back and listen....thank you in advance.


Post count doesn't equal wisdom, my friend. ;) (Yes, I know I'm leaving myself wide open, but it's true. I hardly am a grand sage of audio or video around here. )

Post count doesn't equal wisdom, my friend. ;)

That's right Q, AVS wisdom is based on the running total of clever pictures posted.

By that count, I have an AVS IQ of 3 or 4. ;-)

Hi Folks :)
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you and your families !!
Now to important news !
Kris,
I`m sure that you know more than I , given the gear your using , however....
Mine just came in today :D and I have had a quick chance to play a few parts of a few dvd`s and they all look great. Heres my setup Sony XS PDP , with HDMI from the 79.
Very good picture , maybe your setup is alot different and if there is a problem please let us know and keep us up to date , thanks.
Also had a fast second to play some SACD into my DSP-A1 and the harshness that I heard from the 3100ES is gone :).
So , this is day 1 , and so far I`m very happy with the 79 . Much more so than day 1 with the 3100ES.
Once I have had a chance to spend more time with it and watch a full dvd , maybe my thoughts will change , but right now i would have to say that the 79 is a far better player than the 3100ES , at least for my setup. I wish you all the best :)
Gary
PS:
A full review will follow in a few days !
All my best guys :D
2nd PS :
Mine is Gloss Black :) , It`s not the old fashion Urushi but it`s not the standar black that you would see on other players either and it is far more glossy than the pictures on Pioneer`s website and glossier than the 59 was (is). Not like my 09 but still , not bad :)
Are they all with a glossy finish , if so I`m glad I didn`t wait for silver ;)

That's right Q, AVS wisdom is based on the running total of clever pictures posted.

By that count, I have an AVS IQ of 3 or 4. ;-)

Yes, and we know you can come up with a picture or two. Bytehoven, I haven't the time nor patience to read through all the posts to determine whether or not you own a 79avi. If chance that you do, what is the issue with it that Kris is alluding to? Thanks?

I am checking out for a few days but look forward to reading some interesting responses when I get back. Again, this is a great opportunity for those of you who can identify the flaws in a DVD player's performance to step up and let us know the shortcomings of the 79avi. It will be interesting to compare your findings to Kris's, happy holidays!

Soldonandy: you are a nubile .... what?

And gotta make BabyQ cry - postcount (or postwhoring) means very little. Not that I'm an expert, nor have I claimed to be, but there is no correlation between post count and knowledge.

Kris has already alluded to the problem. Just be patient.

Dude, with all due respect, you are just scratching the surface here, I only have three hundred and some posts and am a nubile. You got dudes here that are into the thousands so guys like you and me can only know so much. With that in mind, I view this thread as a good opportunity for the independent thinkers to step up to the plate before we get Kris's diagnosis. It is going to be interesting to see the dissection of the 79avi, particularly the major flaws before we hear from Kris. I'll sit back and listen....thank you in advance.

Courtesy of MS Word:

nu*bile -
1. used to describe a young woman who is physically mature enough to have sexual intercourse and therefore suitable for marriage.
2. young and sexually desirable

Heh. :p

I just picked mine up today and it is outstanding. it replaced a macroblocking Denon 2910 and IMO the Pioneer is superior to that player....at least to my untrained ears and eyes. If there is something wrong with it my response will be to put my fingers in my ears and go ' la la la la ' so as not to hear it. Ignorance is bliss and so far I love this player.

I too picked one up today, and it won't output a DVI signal to my Pioneer 503cmx plasma. Its got a 2910 hooked up to the aurora expansion card that gives those units dvi input that works just fine.

Funny thing is, I got a new Oppo overnighted in today, but that wont output dvi either to the plasma, yet the SVHS on it AS well is just fine.

I tried 3 different cables.

Why the 2910 works but not the 79avi or the Oppo is mystery so far.

Help??? Possibly 3 different cables not being good somehow? I mean even the cables out of the box with the oppo don't work. This seems very weird.

I rotated through the cables and players, the 2910 always works just fine but never once the oppo or the 79avi.

Help!! :confused:

Hi ZZtop,
Could it be that copy protection that the HDMI complies too :confused:
I wish I could be of more help. You must have an adapter , maybe an adapter that goes from your PDP then HDMI to the 79 would help.
Or just go into the video set menu of the 79 and choose different video settings , it`s strange it should work just fine. Don`t know a thing about the Oppo , sorry.
I wish you all the luck , and Happy Holidays !
Gary
PS:
I found the strangest problem with the 79 , when I first installed it and put the batteries in the remote , it would not turn on , OK , so I went to the unit itself and pushed the power button in and it turned on. So I tried the remote to make sure it worked and it did turn he unit off and on.
Now , if the turn the 79 off at the player you can`t turn it on with the remote , talk about a wierd way to do things , not like Pioneer at all.
Thsi is my 5th Elite unit and the only on that acts like that. O-well !

Soldonandy: you are a nubile .... what?

And gotta make BabyQ cry - postcount (or postwhoring) means very little. Not that I'm an expert, nor have I claimed to be, but there is no correlation between post count and knowledge.

Kris has already alluded to the problem. Just be patient.

I am not sure what you are saying here but anyway, I don't need to be patient because I am happy with the DVD player. On the other hand, can you figure out the issue without Kris telling you what it is? Because if you can't, then I guess it isn't bothering you.

edit - removed my guess as to what the problem is because i was flat wrong and dumb :)

I still havent' received mine, and I've been VERY excited about the player, but it is sobering to here Kris say "WHOA! Keep the 59, this is bad." I really hope its something that a simple firmware fix can take care of, or that is somehow only evident on artificial test patterns. My problem is, when I find out there is a problem, I seek it out and look for it to see if it'll bother me, and if I ever see it, it'll bother me. So, I hope this turns out to be not a big deal.

My problem is, when I find out there is a problem, I seek it out and look for it to see if it'll bother me, and if I ever see it, it'll bother me. So, I hope this turns out to be not a big deal.

In the words of the immortal Rudy Canoza, " La la la la ...la la la".

I'm telling you....just put your fingers in your ears! :p

Courtesy of MS Word:

nu*bile -
1. used to describe a young woman who is physically mature enough to have sexual intercourse and therefore suitable for marriage.
2. young and sexually desirable

Heh. :p

OK good, you got me, I had a few beers last night and wasn't thinking. Ok now that you offered that, let me ask you a question, are you one of the guys that owns a 79avi and is pleased with it or are you one of the guys who once Kris lets you in on the issue that it forever changes your perception of the DVD player. Also, if you are the latter, will you parrot the flaws as if they are something that is obvious to you in the scope of your diagnostic capabilities and give those advice as to whether or not this is a good buy when the discussion arises down the road?

To all, let me make one thing real clear, this is not a knock on Kris, love the guy, he is the best, whatever. This is a knock on those waiting to jump on the bandwagon, especially those who voice alot of knowledge here claiming to be affected on the same level as Kris by the flaws. It has been pretty quiet from a few of you and you know who you are. We got a nice little opportunity for the other "experts" who understand what to look for to share their insight rather than guess at it. I know it is making trouble but I have seen participants on this forum throw around alot of weight on the subject so I am curious as to who has the ability to take more than a guess, thats all. For the majority, your feathers shouldn't but ruffled on this, most of you are probably in the same situation as me, you bought this DVD player and are enjoying it and whether we want to admit it or not, whatever Kris is coming up with isn't affecting us now, the question is whom will it affect after. Yeah, I understand the once you know what to look for routine it is hard to ignore. Hope most of you are enjoying the 79avi as much as me, I think I have been clear on my position and will not go on the offensive unless someone needs to rip me for bringing up this point vs. rising to the challenge. Again, happy holidays to all.

My 79 replaced an expensive 4 year old Sony player which used to be one of the best in the past . I wanted a player in my bedroom and the 79 is now my HT player. The Sony always produced a great picture through components to my 73927 Mitsubishi TV but the 79 through HDMI and 1080i makes the Sony picture look like an old NTSC analog program. My HD Directv receiver with the well known "HD-LITE" produces a picture inferior to the 79 when tuned to HBO or SHO. I have Titanic recorded in HD in my HD-TIVo and the new DVD played through the 79 results in a picture very very close to the HD, sometimes looking even better. It simply can't get much better than this!

Playing SACD and DVD-A through I-LINK to my Pioneer 74 receiver also make everybody jaw-dropping. What else can we expect from a US$ 900.00 machine that performs equal or better than any hi-end gear?

I can't see any motion artifact, any MB, any flaw AT ALL!

I am dying to hear from Kris what is this so misterious and relevant problem.

Sergio

Keep the 59AVi



Well my wife says I never listen to her advice so why should I listen to Kris (no offense Kris)! All kidding aside I drove 170 (round trip) miles today to trade in my 59avi that I bought at Magnolia. There are some Magnolias closer but the store in Dedham, MA was the closest store that had it in stock.

When I called Magnolia on Thursday I asked if they would price match with Tweeter and they said they would (10% off). I almost canceled the order after seeing Kris' remarks but if I did not do it today I would be over the 30 day return policy. So I said screw it and packed up the 59avi and set off on my journey.

When I got to Magnolia I told the salesmen that Tweeter had a coupon in their ad that gave $50.00 off if you spent $500.-$999. He called over the Manager, he checked some figures in the computer and said sure no problem making it a 15% discount. So bottom line is it cost me only $105.00 to upgrade to the 79avi.

I will calibrate the 79avi later today to see how it compares to the 59avi. I am optomistic that it will look as good if not a little better than the 59avi. One thing that I like right off is that the 79avi looks better sitting next to my 74txvi than the 59avi. Of course that doesn't help with SQ or PQ or does it ( I need help for sure)?
Will check back later when I've calibrated and watched a few DVD's and listen to some SACD's.

Bill

Doesn't DVE also have a simliar pattern to the one Kris mentioned?

So this problem shows up on HDMI at all resolutions (480p/720p/1080i), and 480i is the only option where it doesn't show up?

jcg

Not seeing it at 480i

Keep the 59AVi

Haven't done extensive testing with "real world" material yet. But the problem is pretty bad with test patterns.

If anyone here has the WHQL test discs, go under the cadence tests that use the horizontal and vertical resolution wedges spinning in a circle and you'll see what I am talking about. It is painfully obvious.

One thing I forgot in my previous post is to wish everyone Happy Holidays and a Happy New Year! I am also very grateful for a healthy family and the ability to pursue my HT passion. Also thanks to everyone on the forum for their help in the past year.

Bill

Soldonandy:

If it's not bothering you, just stop checking out this thread. It isn't bothering you, so stay blissfully ignorant (and that isn't an insult). AVS is infamous for flamewars over the stupidest things... like dVD players.

To answer your questions:

1. I have seen deinterlacing hiccups in some material but don't have the technical resources to determine the nature of the hiccups; nor does it greatly bother me.

2. My understanding from what hints Kris Deering has posted: there's a deinterlacing or detail problem with certain patterns (cadences) of frames/pictures and /or breaks in the cadence. It is apparently highly evident in test patterns. To find if it's visible in real-world material my take is that you'd have to find real-world material with that particular sequence of pictures/frames and compare.

Before Kris explains what is wrong with this DVD player, I am not sure between Levesque, Rob, Larry or Bytehoven who owns this DVD player but am curious that whomever has this DVD player to get a heads up on what the issue (s) is/are. Surely you guys are on to the issues on to the significant issues with this player so there is no need for the suspense. The reason I ask for your opinions is that there has been 27 pages of generally decent feedback leading up to Kris's comments. Thanks.

I don't own the 79avi and I have not seen it, so I obviously can't comment on any potential problems.

I have kept an eye on this thread, because if there was a consensus that it was noticeably better than the 59avi, I would consider an upgrade (despite being quite happy with my 59avi).

I just picked mine up today and it is outstanding. it replaced a macroblocking Denon 2910 and IMO the Pioneer is superior to that player....at least to my untrained ears and eyes. If there is something wrong with it my response will be to put my fingers in my ears and go ' la la la la ' so as not to hear it. Ignorance is bliss and so far I love this player.

When it comes to video, I am of the opinion that there is actually some merit to the "ignorance is bliss" theory. If there is a "problem" that you normally don't notice in normal viewing, you are better off not knowing what it is...or that it is there. Once you are aware of it, you will have a tendency to look for it, and notice it every time that it appears.

When it comes to video, I am of the opinion that there is actually some merit to the "ignorance is bliss" theory. If there is a "problem" that you normally don't notice in normal viewing, you are better off not knowing what it is...or that it is there. Once you are aware of it, you will have a tendency to look for it, and notice it every time that it appears.

I agree with you Rob, glad you are enjoying your 59. I really like the 79avi and probably would be with you in the camp that I am better off not knowing, picture looks solid, build is great for the money, good features, attractive unit, etc.

Soldonandy:

If it's not bothering you, just stop checking out this thread. It isn't bothering you, so stay blissfully ignorant (and that isn't an insult). AVS is infamous for flamewars over the stupidest things... like dVD players.

To answer your questions:

1. I have seen deinterlacing hiccups in some material but don't have the technical resources to determine the nature of the hiccups; nor does it greatly bother me.

2. My understanding from what hints Kris Deering has posted: there's a deinterlacing or detail problem with certain patterns (cadences) of frames/pictures and /or breaks in the cadence. It is apparently highly evident in test patterns. To find if it's visible in real-world material my take is that you'd have to find real-world material with that particular sequence of pictures/frames and compare.


Ok fair enough. At least you stepped up and took a stab at it, so we will see.

Apparently the problem lies in the conversion from DVI to HDMI out the 79avi into the pioneer plasma.

I use an Aurora A303 card to get the dvi socket with HDCP on the plasma (pio 503cmx). All my dvi players work just fine, but using the hdmi outputs to adpaters or cables that convert to DVI into the plasma fail.

I am thinking its a bug in the Aurora A303 cards dvi implementation.

The dvd players flash like there is no proper handshake with the plasma.

In the case of the 79avi, the HDMI settings are greyed out, I can't even access them in the setup menu.

This 3rd gen panel just may not do HDMI in via DVI. That would really bother me, this card cost close to 600$ bucks and Aurora proposed proper HDCP and DVI implentation. If an HDMI to DVI cable just pulls off the video part to input via DVI, I am wondering why this is not working.

I see many other members have done this apparently ( HDMI to DVI) on devices without an issue.

Anyone>?

Look at the bright side. Maybe Kris found a bug, passes it on to Pioneer, and they are able to fix it with a firmware update (a similar sequence of events occurred with the Oppo).

When Pioneer has done firmware upgrades in the past, were owners able to do it themselves or were they required to send their units back to Pioneer?

That's a good question. I really do not want to know ...but it's like a bad car wreck..I just have to look.

Firmware Updates >
On a Pioneer , thats a chip , not like the Denon or the Oppo that you could upgrade with a cd.
Why they continue to live in the dark ages is beyond me :confused: , plus most of the time Pioneers firmware updates cause more problems than they fix.
When I had my firmware updated in my DV-09 , I lost the function of "last memory" or resume play on some discs.
Plus the cost + 3 yr`s ago i paid over 250 for the chip and labor for my tech to install it, and it really was a huge waste of $$.
So== I think I have figured out the problem , and basicly it`s a video based problem and looks like venetian blind syndrome , some parts of video based material will display lines while changing scenes.
If i am correct , it is unlikely a firmware change would be a fix.
It does not happen all that often, however when it does it sticks out like sore thumb :(
Sorry guys , I know this is not what you wanted to hear , me either.
But take heart , it`s not that bad. If I can say that , then rest assure that it`s not that bad.
Yes it`s there , NO it does not happen all that often.
So , now your asking me " will you be taking this one back too" , I honestly don`t know.
What else would I get ? The 9100ES ? I`m not big on Denon , can`t say why . other than I think they are over priced.
Anyway for those of you lucky enough to have a working 79 . I say ENJOY ! Realy !!
Like I said , it not that bad , and I can find fault with ANY video source , trust me ;)
Merry Christmas to all and may God Bless.
Gary

What else would I get ?
How about the 59ai? Sounds like it may be the better player if this turns out to be a major problem.

Well, if this "bad problem" isn't apparent using 480i, then I guess I'm in the clear, since I'm using 480i over HDMI to my Iscan HD+.

I do find it somewhat humourous though, at the different camps that put SUCH stock in Secrets numerical benchmarks. There's the camp that will not even consider a player UNTIL a Secrets benchmark is posted, and then use it as the definitive be-all end-all measurement of a player's worth. Then there's the camp that, once a benchmark is posted, if that number isn't what was expected, will trash the player as the worst piece of crap ever released.

People. Scientific benchmarks, while certainly a useful measure of SOME ASPECTS of a player's performance, are NOT THE ONLY criteria.

Do Secrets benchmarks measure build quality? No.
Do they evaluate audio performance? No.
Do they evaluate the feature set? No.

Purchasing a DVD player or eliminating a player from consideration based SOLELY on a single set of benchmarks is ridiculously stupid.

For example, when the hullaballoo arose over the initial Secrets benchmark of the Toshiba - SD-V592, I went and checked one out. It displayed some of the worst macroblocking I'd ever seen on any player. It was gawdawful. You couldn't pay me to use the POS. But the numbers say it's good, so it must be, right?

Until Kris posted his warning about the 79avi, the consensus from people who had actually seen one in action was overwhelmingly positive.

Now all of a sudden the sky is falling...

Hi Bill ,
I`m not sure if the 59 would have the problem or not , however if I had to guess I would that it does. I say that because Pioneer has had a long standing relationship with Zoran.
They made the first chip for Pioneer`s CLD-99 , the demodulator for AC-3.
Since then they have developed video as well and has far as I know Pioneer still uses them.
But like I said , it is not a deal breaker ( I hope , this is only my second day with the 79 ).
I know this doesn`t help but I have seen this problem crop up in my Sony PDP , on rare occasions , so it must have something to do with the way the signal is upconverted , reguardless of the source or software ( chip ).
From what I have seen of the 59 , and it`s not much ( never took it home ) , the 79 seems to be built alot better really better.
And it`s not like the problem is that bad , again , yes it`s there but I bet that when Kris does his thing , in the end the results won`t be that far off from the 59 , plus the build quality is better IMO.
If your on the fence about whether or not to "pull the trigger" . I say go for it !!
True it has some issues , but what player doesn`t ?
Also consider this , we are on the edge of HD and upconversion , the learning process is still happening. With this in mind , the 79 is a very ... great symbol of how far we really have come in home video. Although with all these post I could build a fairly good review , it is not my intention atleast not yet still need more time.
But here a list of what I have tried in the past 3 mo.`s
DVP-NS70H -- gap at the top of the screen -- returned in 1 week.
DVP-NS3100ES -- Great build quality but noisy transport and very poor and and long read time and load time and I had a few discs actully get stuck where I had to unplug the unit for about 1/2 an hour to reset and get my dvd out ( could live with that , heck I paid for them not Sony LOL)
DV-79AVi -- So far the best , even with the problem that I mentioned.
Good luck my friend , the 79 , atleast right now seems to be the best choice !
Gary

Jedi29, I don't even see this issue that you mentioned....?

Hi wingnut,
I know like I said it really isn`t that bad and so far I have only seen it on video based material. Here`s where I found it , I was watching a little of "God`s and Generals" ( great movie / lets get on wit the 3rd one ) , and I realy like the title song by Mary Fahl / Going Home , so I watched the music video included on the dvd and thats when it popped up.
Plain as day and in your face !! :(
But like I keep saying it`s not a deal breaker , at least no for me.
I like all this new stuff , it really is my passion.
And if it was bad , I would say so , and I`m not say`n that.
All I`m saying is that there is an issue , not a big one , but it`s not perfect , come to think of it I`m not either LOL :)
Take care,
Gary

OK, everybody going nuts after Kris post, including me. I was watching a movie tonight and started to see some sort of "strobe" effect in some parts where people were moving. It was like some frames were being skipped. Went to the menu and changed from AUTO-2 to ON and everything was back to normal.
I will try again another movie with AUTO-2 and see if the strobe comes back.

Sergio

Until Kris posted his warning about the 79avi, the consensus from people who had actually seen one in action was overwhelmingly positive.

Now all of a sudden the sky is falling...

I have to agree. I watched Four Brothers tonight not exactly the best movie but the PQ was excellent. I used the settings I had for the 59avi and thought it looked great, no issues at all. Hopefully tomorrow I can play some DVD's I am more familiar with to compare PQ to the 59avi. But without the two side by side it really would not be an accurate comparison.

Bill

Hi Bill ,
I`m not sure if the 59 would have the problem or not , however if I had to guess I would that it does. I say that because Pioneer has had a long standing relationship with Zoran....If your on the fence about whether or not to "pull the trigger" . I say go for it !!
I actually bet the 59ai does not have the same problem. I say that because Kris did extensive testing with the 59ai in the past. I am actually not in the market for a new player (I'm very happy with my Denon 3910), but have been recommending the 79ai in a lot of threads since it seems like a great value for anyone looking for a high end player, based on the price point and the initial excellent reviews by early buyers. IMO, I would wait until we know more about the problem before strongly recommending it again. Perhaps, the 59ai is the better buy. I'd be curious how they compare for real-world viewing (my bias is that there is probably little difference anyway between 2 successive models by the same manufacturer, and if the new one introduces a new bug, I'd stick with the old one).

True the 59 has had a good record , but the 79 just came out and like i said , the problem isn`t that bad.
Dollar for dollar , IMO the 79 will prove to be a worthy successor to the 59.

Video Based - perhaps, but not a deal breaker here.

Passed the docs on Alien disk 2 / play all - during one of the Ron Cobb interviews there was something amiss with the video, but not unwatchable given the content. There may have been another section, but I didn't pay attention (too busy enjoying the docs) I tend to settle with what I get when I watch fullscreen docs of variable quality.

This may or may not have anything to do with the anomaly.

E

OK, everybody going nuts after Kris post, including me. I was watching a movie tonight and started to see some sort of "strobe" effect

Kris had better return quickly to this cliffhanger before more people find more things wrong……….. than right with this player.

Perhaps Kris also writes a few episodes for the network series "24" ? ? ? ?

Got a chance to play some DVDs that I am more familiar with Swordfish, Seabiscuit and The Italian Job. I would have to say the PQ was equal if not a little better on the 79avi over the 59avi. I am using pretty much the same settings with the 79avi as with the 59avi. I am using a component connection directly to my Panasonic 42WD6UY as I do not have a DVI blade but hope to order one soon.

The PQ seems more detailed and transparent on the 79avi but without a direct comparison with the 59avi its not the most accurate comparison. I am going more on memory as to how the 59avi looked compared to the 79avi. I was not able to compare SQ of the two as its a little late but hope to do that tomorrow. With the short time I have had with the 79avi I do not regret buying it at all.

Bill

Hey guys

Sorry for the delay but as you know it is Christmas so I have been a bit distracted ;)

I haven't had the oppurtunity to do much, if any, subjective viewing with real world material to see if this "issue" is going to impact normal viewing. I can't see how it wouldn't, but how much anyone would notice would be something else altogether. Personally, there is no way I would use the player for my normal viewing because of this as I would feel there is always a compromise there whether I can see it or not.

The issue is; the player cannot hold the full resolution of DVD in film mode on the right side of the image all the way down and around to about 240 degrees. If I put up a rotating resolution wedge the player completely breaks up in resolution from 90 to about 240 with vertical resolution (horizontal is fine). This is only with the video processor engaged. So obviously this only impacts a portion of the video display but it does impact it. Again, I am going to do more tests and talk with Pioneer. I want them to send another unit out to verify that it isn't just my unit doing it.

Hey guys

Sorry for the delay but as you know it is Christmas so I have been a bit distracted ;)

It's Christmas!?!?! :eek:

;)

I haven't had the oppurtunity to do much, if any, subjective viewing with real world material to see if this "issue" is going to impact normal viewing. I can't see how it wouldn't, but how much anyone would notice would be something else altogether. Personally, there is no way I would use the player for my normal viewing because of this as I would feel there is always a compromise there whether I can see it or not.

The issue is; the player cannot hold the full resolution of DVD in film mode on the right side of the image all the way down and around to about 240 degrees. If I put up a rotating resolution wedge the player completely breaks up in resolution from 90 to about 240 with vertical resolution (horizontal is fine). This is only with the video processor engaged. So obviously this only impacts a portion of the video display but it does impact it. Again, I am going to do more tests and talk with Pioneer. I want them to send another unit out to verify that it isn't just my unit doing it.

That's the first time I have heard of a player doing that. Have you seen this behavior in any other players? What would cause this?

Never seen it before, have no idea what would cause it. Hence why I'm working on it. This is why I really didn't want to post much on it. Get you guys all in a huff.

I want them to send another unit out to verify that it isn't just my unit doing it.

Kris,

Hopefully it is a problem with the 79avi you received and not all the units produced. Can you duplicate this issue with DVE? If so in which test pattern?

Also I am a little curious about your statement that you would not use this player with this issue whether you could see it or not in real world viewing. If this issue is not visible in real world viewing and only with test discs why not use it.

Thanks, Bill

Never seen it before, have no idea what would cause it. Hence why I'm working on it. This is why I really didn't want to post much on it. Get you guys all in a huff.


Deep breath taken here ;)

E

Kris, what exactly do you mean with "video processor engaged" ? Is it just the upconversion to 720P or 1080i? Did you notice if there is any difference when you select AUTO-1, AUTO-2 or ON ? I noticed a strobe effect when my player is in AUTO-2 but everything is normal when I set it to ON. The picture quality looks fantastic and I replaced a very good Sony player that used to be a reference player 4 years ago. I really can't see how the 79 can be any better than this.

Thanks

Sergio

Kris,
I would not be suprised if this has something to do with the 79's CPRM compatability. That " feature " alone scratched it off my list of upgrades. It seems every copy protection scheme *ucks up something. No one will ever convince me that if you only put in a teaspoon of crap into ten gallons of pure chicken soup that it won't change the the flavor. Macroblocking anyone?

Also I am a little curious about your statement that you would not use this player with this issue whether you could see it or not in real world viewing. If this issue is not visible in real world viewing and only with test discs why not use it.

Because I could use a player that doesn't have the issue that is just as good in the other respects. This thing isn't doing anything really that different from the 59AVi other than HDMI 1.1.

Kris, what exactly do you mean with "video processor engaged" ? Is it just the upconversion to 720P or 1080i? Did you notice if there is any difference when you select AUTO-1, AUTO-2 or ON ?

It does it in every mode except 480i (480P, 720P, 1080i). Yes there is a difference between Auto 1, Auto 2 and On. On is a very poor de-interlacing solution that will be in video mode more than film mode. Auto 1 is okay but Auto 2 is better with bad flags.

The picture quality looks fantastic and I replaced a very good Sony player that used to be a reference player 4 years ago. I really can't see how the 79 can be any better than this.

I've never seen a Sony player that I would consider "reference" but as I've always said to everyone on these boards, if you really like the player you have than don't worry about my comments, just continue to enjoy it. It is my job to point out the issues, that is what they pay me for. If you love the image, by all means, just keep enjoying it. There is nothing wrong with that at all.

Because I could use a player that doesn't have the issue that is just as good in the other respects. This thing isn't doing anything really that different from the 59AVi other than HDMI 1.1.
Are you saying, then, that the 79ai offers nothing over the 59ai, at least for video? Same PQ (excluding the 79ai bug)?

Interesting to hear about this so called 'bug'. I've mostly only run the player 480i into my scaler but with my HD+ now sold I have to give this issue a look. I have really only been viewing new material so I need to break out my reference stuff for comparison. I thought that the SP1000 had slightly more resolution on one movie I was watching but of course, I can't confirm that this is the same thing. It could be that the 79avi is just a tad softer, who knows, and without the test disk Kris is referring to it may be tough if not impossible to see it.

Thanks for posting your thoughts Kris. I'm hoping it's just a manufacturing defect or processor problem in a bad unit rather than a design failure. I'd hate to watch knowing I wasn't seeing the full resolution of the DVD on a certain part of the screen.

Are you saying, then, that the 79ai offers nothing over the 59ai, at least for video? Same PQ (excluding the 79ai bug)?

Haven't done all my testing yet but I am not seeing much of a difference. Granted I don't have a 59AVi here to do A/B comparisons to but via HDMI there doesn't seem to be much difference at all. The 59AVi was already a great player.

I am checking out for a few days but look forward to reading some interesting responses when I get back. Again, this is a great opportunity for those of you who can identify the flaws in a DVD player's performance to step up and let us know the shortcomings of the 79avi. It will be interesting to compare your findings to Kris's, happy holidays!
Well it looks like Kris stepped up to end the needless speculation initiated by your challenge. (Yeah !)

I’m still trying to figure out why you bought the 79avi in the first place?

Did you sell your SP1000 ? ;)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5591156&&#post5591156

Just wondering if anyone has been able to replicate/confirm this player-killing disaster of epic proportions? ;)

The reason I ask is that before I got my Iscan HD+ back from DVDO, I was using the 79avi HDMI out @ 1080i to my 65" CRT and saw nothing out of the ordinary; nothing that would imply a loss of resolution...

As far as the 79avi "not offering anything over the 59avi", that may be true of the raw scientific data measured in the Secrets benchmarks, but in terms of real-world advantages, I think there are two major areas where the 79avi has an advantage:

1. Considerably better build quality than the 59avi.

2. Much lower MSRP.

Also, doesn't the 79avi offer a "purer" 480i over HDMI than the 59avi, or was I misreading?

No, these probably aren't issues that matter to existing 59avi owners speculating whether to upgrade, but random reader may get the wrong impression...

Kris - are you not seeing any benefit to the 10bit processing of the VQE9 in the 79AVi? Even though it doesn't matter for my display, I was hoping it would be a little improvement

I currently have my 79avi connected via component directly to my Panasonic 42WD6UY ED plasma. Would I see much of an improvement in PQ if I used the HDMI output to the Panasonic? I need to order a DVI blade for the Panasonic (HDMI blade not available for 6 series). I have a HDMI/DVI cable in place so I just need to add the blade.

Thanks for any advice, Bill

Well it looks like Kris stepped up to end the needless speculation initiated by your challenge. (Yeah !)

I’m still trying to figure out why you bought the 79avi in the first place?

Did you sell your SP1000 ? ;)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5591156&&#post5591156

Penton-Man,

Why are you celebrating? I also am curious why you are seeking me out, my last post has been followed by several others that surely oppose your opinions and would be more worthy of confrontation. Besides, if you read my post correctly, you would see that my challlenge was not directed at Kris, it was aimed at all the others that claim that they can diagnose and/or are affected by the things that Kris comes up with. The result was alot of guessing at the "issue", I am not surprised.

Anyway, yes I did sell my SP1000 and bought an Arcam DV79, I used the Pioneer in a secondary arrangement. Still say the SP1000 is the best, however, the Arcam and Pioneer are satisfying for other reasons. Thanks for your interest.

Penton-Man,

Why are you celebrating?
It's the holidays and I don't have to work? :D

Seriously, hey, don’t get the wrong impression !
I believed you had made your point (or others did for you ;) ) which I think was a good one.

I simply wanted to stop the bleeding, (i.e. anguish over the anticipated *flaw* found on one player with preliminary testing) by encouraging Kris to be more forthcoming as soon as possible.

I’m not taking sides here. I appreciate your perspectives on DVD players as I do of Kris’s technical expertise with the Secret’s testing ! Considering the opinions from a couple or more well informed sources only serves to allow the consumer to make a well-informed purchasing decision. :)

P.S. I REALLY did want to know why you bought the 79avi in the first place after having remembered your old post.

It's the holidays and I don't have to work? :D

Seriously, hey, don’t get the wrong impression !
I believed you had made your point (or others did for you ;) ) which I think was a good one.

I simply wanted to stop the bleeding, (i.e. anguish over the anticipated *flaw* found on one player with preliminary testing) by encouraging Kris to be more forthcoming as soon as possible.

I’m not taking sides here. I appreciate your perspectives on DVD players as I do of Kris’s technical expertise with the Secret’s testing ! Considering the opinions from a couple or more well informed sources only serves to allow the consumer to make a well-informed purchasing decision. :)

P.S. I REALLY did want to know why you bought the 79avi in the first place after having remembered your old post.

Thanks man.

Group hug!

http://www.rx8web.com/smilies/hug.gif

Group hug!

http://www.rx8web.com/smilies/hug.gif
Rob, I think you should put another one of dem little fellas in there also, :D
as I presume Kris just saved you a few hundred $$ and you will keep your 59avi and wait for the good stuff this summer. ;)

Rob, I think you should put another one of dem little fellas in there also, :D
as I presume Kris just saved you a few hundred $$ and you will keep your 59avi and wait for the good stuff this summer. ;)

My DV-59AVi is looking better every day :-)

I think the big draw for the 79AVi vs the 59AVi is support of HDMI 1.1, which doesn't mean much if you already have firewire capability. The improved 10 bit scaling may make a bit of a difference, but I wouldn't expect a lot.

Hey Tony,
I confirmed your forecast (with a 3rd source collaboration) concerning the 70” SXRD display and posted it a few days ago in my neighborhood. If I recall correctly, they said next October.

Good call !

The improved 10 bit scaling may make a bit of a difference, but I wouldn't expect a lot.
LOL !
Can't help myself folks, just too much Holiday cheer. :)

Hey Tony,
I confirmed your forecast (with a 3rd source collaboration) concerning the 70” SXRD display and posted it a few days ago in my neighborhood. If I recall correctly, they said next October.

Good call !

Great. So Tony can have his 10th Television in 3 years?!

;)

Great. So Tony can have his 10th Television in 3 years?!

;)

One per year is the max - my next set in '06 will probably be my last for a couple years ( until 80 in. 2nd. generation SED hits the streets :-)

Hey Tony,
I confirmed your forecast (with a 3rd source collaboration) concerning the 70” SXRD display and posted it a few days ago in my neighborhood. If I recall correctly, they said next October.

Good call !

I hope they use an improved version of the .78 in. SXRD - if so it will be a top contender withe the 65 in. 1080p Panny and / or a FP with 100 in. screen.

Its going to be a tough call :-) But looks like I already saved a grand for it by not buying the 79 AVi ...

I would like to add some positive content to the evaluation of the 79AVi. It's been mentioned before, but seemingly buried under the avalanche of worries about the possible "bug" in video processing.

When hooked up to my Pioneer 56TXi receiver via the iLink, this unit sounds great. I don't just mean for movies. I don't just mean it is acceptable for playing music. It sounds good even when compared to my audiophile stereo setup. Is it as good as my stereo setup? No. But it comes close. There is some real synergism going on here. This is very important to me because I will be forced into using a single system for a while when I move this spring.

What a difference a few days make! Now the 79avi is a piece crap. I'm in the middle of The Fifth Element super-bit DVD and the PQ and SQ are excellent. For $105.00 to upgrade from the 59avi I'm very happy that I bought it. I'm certainly not as knowledgable as many in this thread but I would like to think I know good PQ when I see it.

It would be nice to hear from some of the first people that bought the 79avi if I recall they were very happy with it as well. Not that I feel I have to defend my purchase its just funny to me how people who have not spent much or any time with the 79avi talking like its not worth much.

Bill

What a difference a few days make! Now the 79avi is a piece crap. I'm in the middle of The Fifth Element super-bit DVD and the PQ and SQ are excellent. For $105.00 to upgrade from the 59avi I'm very happy that I bought it. I'm certainly not as knowledgable as many in this thread but I know good PQ when I see it.

It would be nice to hear from some of the first people that bought the 79avi if I recall they were very happy with it as well. Not that I feel I have to defend my purchase its just funny to me how people who have not spent much or any time with the 79avi talking like its not worth much.

Bill

I can't comment on the "bug", I am not sure what to look nor am I going to go out of my way to find it. I used to own a 47ai, I liked the PQ although it was a bit noisy but the build quality wasn't very exciting in my opinion for the money. I moved on to the Denon 2900 which satisfied my craving for a more substantial DVD player (but unfortunately it fell short with the most important thing, reliability). I considered the 59 avi but it seemed too close to the 47ai build wise (although I hear it is a fine DVD player) so I went with the SP1000 instead which satisfied one of my desires which was to have a DVD player which was heavier than my pre-amp. When the 79avi came out and I saw the specs, I figured it was finally the Pioneer I have been waiting for and very worthwhile for a secondary theater. Like I said, the "issue" that has arisen fortunately isn't something that I look for nor probably could find. It doesn't mean that it isn't there and it doesn't mean that it isn't important to some people. It seems however that the people who bought this DVD player really like it and the people who didn't buy it and perhaps own the 59 are rejoicing in the fact that Kris has given them ammunition to justify standing pat with the 59.

The bottom line is that if you tend to make buying decisions based on the sentiment of the Secrets analysis, then you are bound to be against this DVD player, you may even be duped into buying a cheap Panasonic for that matter. If you value a rock solid picture, arguably the most robust build and features to be had for under a grand and are immune to dissecting subtle PQ "flaws" that are discovered in laboratory analysis, you may like it. I understand it is fun to take sides with the "mine is better than yours" routine and I also understand that it is nice to feel gratified after making a buying decision.

For me, none of this has soured my initial reaction to the 79, I have owned many a DVD player and have learned that a great DVD player doesn't necessarily mean that it is one that will test positively on all accounts with the Secrets analysis. For instance, my former SP1000 or my current Arcam DV79 will never be considered the "best" if the Secrets Benchmark is the only reading you do but they have provided me with the right balance of build, features, reliability, PQ and music ability that I have not been able to achieve with numerous other players. If you own either one of these DVD players, you know what I am talking about. Is the Arcam the "best", who knows or cares but it is really great for all the things that matter most and gives me more pride of ownership than something flipped out of China for my main DVD player. One thing that I have taken seriously that Kris has said time and time again is that the differences on this level of the most recent DVD players is really minor and that his job is to dissect anything he can find under a level of scrutiny which isn't necessarily a consumer level. I know we like to pretend that we see the same things that Kris does but there wasn't alot of people coming up with the 79's "issue" when the opportunity arose.

The Pioneer I view as alot of DVD player for under a grand if you are looking for a nice balance across the board of features, build, PQ and music, obviously at this point, it will not be a crowd favorite but what DVD player is? I wouldn't worry about it if you bought the 79, nobody was able to come up with the issue until they were told what it was so if you bought the 79 and like it so far, you'll be fine.

What a difference a few days make! Now the 79avi is a piece crap.
Nobody has ever said that. But, would you really recommend it to someone who currently owns the 59ai? I would not, based on what Kris has found. Has anyone done a blinded, head-to-head comparison with both connected at the same time to the same display?

Nobody has ever said that. But, would you really recommend it to someone who currently owns the 59ai? I would not, based on what Kris has found. Has anyone done a blinded, head-to-head comparison with both connected at the same time to the same display?

I wouldn't recommend anything else I owned it.

Shouldn't anyone buying any DVD player really try to get as much information about it from as many sources as possible? It would seem to make sense. Using only one source of information would to be limiting yourself unnecessarily, considering how many reviews and owner accounts are available. That being said, there's certainly no reason to discount Kris' testing and reviews at all. They seem to be very through and based on quantifiable data. I appreciate that as much as I appreciate subjective anecdotes from owners. If people are out there defending his reviews... I'd back them up... I have found them extremely valuable.

Any reasonable person knows to take his testing and accounts as one set of data among the wealth of data that is out there (or will be out there.) I think Kris has tried to convey that message as much as anyone.

I'd venture to guess that nobody really needs to buy this player (or any player) right away... so it probably makes sense to wait until the strange issue with it has been investigated. Doesn't that seem reasonable?

If you've already bought it, though... and exhibits no problems... awesome!

(My gut instinct tells me Kris' test unit is a defective unit. But that is only pure speculation. Just a guess.)

-Terry

I've been planning to buy a 79AVi for about a month now, and I'm still going ahead with it this coming Friday. Of course I never planned to use anything but 480i output. So how ever this turns out, it won't matter to me. All I know is from what I've seen and heard in the in-store demo it is the player for me, and I can't wait to try it out in the privacy of my home.

Nobody has ever said that. But, would you really recommend it to someone who currently owns the 59ai? I would not, based on what Kris has found. Has anyone done a blinded, head-to-head comparison with both connected at the same time to the same display?

Yes, I would recommend the 79avi highly to anyone whether they own 59avi or not. If someone has a 59avi they can make that choice on their own. My choice was to return the 59avi for the 79avi some people might not make that choice. What Kris has found still has not been ruled out to be possibly a defective unit or has it? Also I have not seen what Kris has said was a problem, but maybe I am not seeing it which is fine.

If in fact the problem Kris found is isolated to the unit he has what will opinions be then? Bottom line in my opinion it is a great player for the cost. Is it better than the Denon 3910, 5910 or the Onkyo SP1000 I would say no (but I have not seen these players) but it does not cost close to what those players cost. I have not heard of anyone that has done a blinded, head-to-head comparison of the 59avi/79avi. But are there many people that could actually tell which player is which from the all other players I mentioned here by the method that you suggested? I would guess not too many.

By the way I never did get any thoughts on using the HDMI output over component to my ED Panasonic plasma, would I see any difference between the two even though its not an HD PDP?

Thanks, Bill

Slightly off-topic: If anyone's looking for a good "test" of both the audio and the video of the 79avi (or any DVD player for that matter), the Eagles Farewell Tour 2-DVD set is phenomenal. As with the "Hell Freezes Over" DVD, they did not skimp on the quality.

I'm finding that the better quality video-shot DVDs (I do a lot of watching of music performance DVDs) achieve about 90% of HDNET quality when played on a 79avi/Iscan HD+ combo. The quality is amazing. Better quality than HBOHD fare, but just not quite up to the crystal clarity of the HDNET-shot HD material. You get that "3D" effect very strong though.

Other exemplary quality performance DVDs:

Toto - Live in Amsterdam
Blackmore's Night - Castles & Dreams
Blind Guardian - Imaginations Through the Looking Glass

Now if only the 79avi converted PAL to NTSC. :(

Shouldn't anyone buying any DVD player really try to get as much information about it from as many sources as possible? It would seem to make sense. Using only one source of information would to be limiting yourself unnecessarily, considering how many reviews and owner accounts are available. That being said, there's certainly no reason to discount Kris' testing and reviews at all. They seem to be very through and based on quantifiable data. I appreciate that as much as I appreciate subjective anecdotes from owners. If people are out there defending his reviews... I'd back them up... I have found them extremely valuable.

Any reasonable person knows to take his testing and accounts as one set of data among the wealth of data that is out there (or will be out there.) I think Kris has tried to convey that message as much as anyone.

I'd venture to guess that nobody really needs to buy this player (or any player) right away... so it probably makes sense to wait until the strange issue with it has been investigated. Doesn't that seem reasonable?

If you've already bought it, though... and exhibits no problems... awesome!

(My gut instinct tells me Kris' test unit is a defective unit. But that is only pure speculation. Just a guess.)

-Terry

Agree with you to some extent but the only problem is that nobody else seems to do what Kris does and I don't mean that in a negative way. Sure, there are other sources of information in terms of reviews but nobody comes at it from the same angle as Kris. His analysis is detailed on a laboratory level but unless you own a lab coat, you probably don't see what he sees in many circumstances. I think he has really helped the common person differentiate between a poor/average DVD player and a better DVD player, whether or not we all can dissect the differences he is wringing out with $800 DVD player and above is another story. Its all good information and I know most are grateful for the knowledge.

Personally, I tend to feel more warm and fuzzy reading reviews from a few magazines that I find somewhat objective although because of advertising, it is difficult to find truly objective information. Like I said, the Secrets reviews are another "animal" and it is up to you to decide whether that is the type of information that influences you, check out the Secrets website for that matter, they tend to get into the differences with amps and cables too, if that is your bag, its alot of fun.

For those who have, or are still considering the 79avi, here are a couple of screenshots captured by Levesque that were posted in a Ruby thread:

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/501/DSC03600_Medium_.JPG

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/501/DSC03611_Medium_.JPG

Looks good to me! :)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=622064

Agree with you to some extent but the only problem is that nobody else seems to do what Kris does and I don't mean that in a negative way. Sure, there are other sources of information in terms of reviews but nobody comes at it from the same angle as Kris. His analysis is detailed on a laboratory level but unless you own a lab coat, you probably don't see what he sees in many circumstances. I think he has really helped the common person differentiate between a poor/average DVD player and a better DVD player, whether or not we all can dissect the differences he is wringing out with $800 DVD player and above is another story. Its all good information and I know most are grateful for the knowledge.

Personally, I tend to feel more warm and fuzzy reading reviews from a few magazines that I find somewhat objective although because of advertising, it is difficult to find truly objective information. Like I said, the Secrets reviews are another "animal" and it is up to you to decide whether that is the type of information that influences you, check out the Secrets website for that matter, they tend to get into the differences with amps and cables too, if that is your bag, its alot of fun.
I agree with you. I appreciate the information and depth of Kris' DVD player tests. I am certainly more knowledgeable about the technology used and the reasons for its use because of the Benchmark reviews. I also love the side-by-side/shootout aspect of it. However, I also agree that oftentimes, the differences between players are very subtle and/or pertain to modes that aren't as frequently encountered (particular types of cadences, for example), especially if you watch mostly hollywood film-based material.

Kris' tests don't take into account (scoring wise) the Faroudja Macroblocking enhancement bug (which is a real problem with my display.) So, even on that one point, I know to take the Benchmark scores as part of my investigation when considering a DVD player. Case in point, I often enjoy my Pioneer 588a over my Oppo when watching recent release hollywood films, despite the fact the Oppo scored higher on the Benchmark.

Bottom line is, Kris' information is undoubtedly valuable. It's a great place to start when evaluating DVD player performance. But it must be supplemented by other accounts (mostly on AVS Forum, really!) and, most importantly, your own viewing experience.

Getting back to topic... I have been monitoring the info on the 79avi, mainly based on how good a reputation the 59avi has gotten, and because I have been thinking I'd like to get a player that has equal or better performance of the Oppo with a wide variety of material, but without macroblocking (and with SACD capability.) I'd pay money for one great player... but am not in a extreme hurry. I'd love to hear more about the 79... but also the Sony 9100es... and a few other players.

Those screenshots (of the 79 with Ruby) look great, though. Of course... the Ruby is an amazing projector, too...

-Terry

For those who have, or are still considering the 79avi, here are a couple of screenshots captured by Levesque that were posted in a Ruby thread:

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/501/DSC03600_Medium_.JPG

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/501/DSC03611_Medium_.JPG

Looks good to me! :)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=622064

I would like to see is a side by side comparison of the same material
on the 59AVi...

But what I would really love to see are screen shots of the 79AVi vrs. 59 AVi
outputing 480i over HDMI to a DVDO iSCAN HD+ or VP30! If it is a noticable
improvement then I will fork over the cash immediately for a79 AVi and retire
the 59AVi as a secondary DVD player.

De-interlacing is not alot better then the 59avi, but CUE bug seems to be eliminate, or at least filtered (I can't have a definitive answer from Pioneer on that). They say "no CUE bug anymore", but we can't find the MPEG decoder name and number precisely for now. PQ seems a bit better when direct (480p, 720p) to my projector (w/o the IScan). Sharper, popping colors.

I did try some Disney titles (Monster Inc, Toy Story) and CUE seems to be a thing of the past now.

No TA for SACD and no adjustable crossover. Just like the 59avi.

480i HDMI "Direct" to the IScan HD+ is better then when using the 59avi. But we are splitting hair here... I have a 110" screen and you have to be looking for ringing to really see it with the 59avi... 79avi is better on that part.

But if you don't want to spend $$$ on SDI, you need HDMI 1.1, or a better analog audio, then the 79avi is the way to go over the 59avi. Or else, there is no need to "upgrade".

If build quality is important to you, then the 79avi is way better in that regard. Bigger, sturdy, heavier.

79avi: http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/501/DSC03320_Medium_.JPG

Kris (or anyone willing to comment)...while your earlier post about keeping the 59avi (over 79avi with funky new problem) is admirable, what about this CUE bug in the 59avi (noted by LEVESQUE and in your review).

From Secrets DVD Benchmark (concerning 59avi): "One of the other big drawbacks of Pioneer players in the past has been chroma issues. This player is really no exception, but the main 3-2 and video based CUE errors are gone. But with material that uses an alternating 3-2 cadence (most of the Disney animated DVDs), you will see a flickering problem in solid colors. The Pioneer solution also doesn’t have a chroma filter for 4:2:0 ICP, while the Faroudja, HQV, and DVDO solutions do have this."

I have almost every Disney movie imaginable...so would I prefer 79 or 59 for animation. I don't care about HDMI 1.1 and "direct" 480i over HDMI right now. I will purchase one of these players...I am letting the experts on this panel direct me which way.

I would like to see is a side by side comparison of the same material
on the 59AVi...

But what I would really love to see are screen shots of the 79AVi vrs. 59 AVi
outputing 480i over HDMI to a DVDO iSCAN HD+ or VP30! If it is a noticable
improvement then I will fork over the cash immediately for a79 AVi and retire
the 59AVi as a secondary DVD player.

I would love to see that as well!

I posted a question to Levesque in the Ruby thread asking if the 79avi was hooked directly to the Ruby or was going through his scaler, but he has yet to respond, as he is probably enjoying the Holidays by watching his new toy!

I have followed Kris Deerings reviews and his tests closely on players I have tested and returned due to issues I found or he listed that I could not live with.

I have also , purely as an amateur with a bit of know how, tested about a dozen or so players in the past 2 years for this or that, some in detail, and posted on here, and some not.

I have in general found his results to be really accurate but even he himself will tell you the score is not everything.

It depends on what people see in their own personal usage at home. The Denon 2910 is the classic example, nice construction, not too cheap, not too expensive, yet the MB ruined it for many people --- if their display showed it -- others love the players video and audio and have never seen the MB on their display.

I am certain we could get users to post tons of examples of both sides of the coin. But let's not lose sight of the fact he does use some benchmarks to find problems with players that generally apply to the quality we want from any player.

These numbers often don't always translate to a desirable aeshetic image in your home, as often as they do translate to a desirable image I am sure , but they help pinpoint areas people may find problems in.

The benefit is, you may find those problems sooner rather than later and so avoid finding out your purchase has problems after its too late to return it or perhaps not buy a particular product at all.

In the end free market is about competition, and in its forms, Kris Deerings tests help up somewhat determine who the better competitors are for our money.

I think we owe him a vote of thanks for his past efforts, and having just brougth home a new 79avi, will just patiently wait to see what he says, and what I see the player do myself. Worst case scenario, I get a 59avi or give my new Oppo some heavy usage. I have to tell you folks, this Oppo is a one good little clone for 200$ plus 2 free cables. :eek:

Quite frankly though, I am suprised Pioneer let anything slip through on the 79avi if it was supposed to be the top of the line player, big or small. If the box has issues only a hardware fix will correct, no matter what it is, that's not good hmmm :rolleyes:

What are we going to do, have flawed players up to and through the bluray release even with the top of the line models??? :o I am sorry, but I think its time the manufacturers got at least the top of the models right !!!

Nice to see the witch hunt coming under control in some manner.

E

BURN the witch! :p

Seriously...I am priming myself for that mighty DVD player that will take my large collection into the future. Assuming I have a 720p digital FP (HDMI), do I:

1. Save some bucks and live with a CUE of the 59avi
2. Go for the 79avi and live with some new bug that may rear its ugly head from time to time.
3. Gamble on a Denon hoping whatever FP I end up with doesn't have MB issue (I can jump into a 2910 easily and possibly used 3910)
4. Settle on Panny S77 or S97 and save money for Blu-Ray Dvds ;)

I know this is a 79avi thread...that is why I am posting on it (all the smart folks hang out here), I was all set to jump on 79avi soon.

For reference...I have made my last 4 DVD player choices based upon feedback from Kris's testing and this forum...so I wholeheartily trust this method of choosing. I have always went for the "most bang for my buck" and am tired of that route and ready for the biggest bang (sorry, not for 5910...that is a nuclear type bang). :D

I posted a question to Levesque in the Ruby thread asking if the 79avi was hooked directly to the Ruby or was going through his scaler, but he has yet to respond, as he is probably enjoying the Holidays by watching his new toy!

Sorry Rob.

The boxing day (I should say "boxing week" here...) is crazy... Not enough time to post!

To answer your question. The 79AVi was direct to the Ruby at 480i over HDMI when I took those screenshots. No scaler. The Ruby is doing all the processing.

I'm pretty happy with the results. :D

And don't forget that the Ruby is OOTB, w/o any greyscale calibration or anything. Plug and play. Calibration will be done in 2 or 3 weeks.

Very impressive for P&Play. I see no torches or people with funny 1800s hats ;)

E

Sorry Rob.

The boxing day (I should say "boxing week" here...) is crazy... Not enough time to post!

To all us gringos that don’t live in Britain, Canada, Australia (G’day Owen!) or New Zealand……..that be the day after Christmas.

Also known in Britain as St. Stephen's Day, it’s a big day for soccer matches.

I have no idea why Canada prolongs it to encompass a week, perhaps it’s an Algolith thing? ;)

And don't forget that the Ruby is OOTB, w/o any greyscale calibration or anything. Plug and play. Calibration will be done in 2 or 3 weeks.
Just wait for the 2nd gen Ruby !

Agree with you to some extent but the only problem is that nobody else seems to do what Kris does and I don't mean that in a negative way. Sure, there are other sources of information in terms of reviews but nobody comes at it from the same angle as Kris. His analysis is detailed on a laboratory level but unless you own a lab coat
Some do ………(albeit in a piecemeal fashion, one just has to look)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5614597&&#post5614597

but sir I disagree -

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6442818&&#post6442818

And………
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5651793&&#post5651793

O.K., I will -

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5654491&&#post5654491

Perhaps Carl Sundbom and umr wear lab coats with different lettering compared to Kris?

Ah…… decisions, decisions………………

Kris (or anyone willing to comment)...while your earlier post about keeping the 59avi (over 79avi with funky new problem) is admirable, what about this CUE bug in the 59avi (noted by LEVESQUE and in your review).

From Secrets DVD Benchmark (concerning 59avi): "One of the other big drawbacks of Pioneer players in the past has been chroma issues. This player is really no exception, but the main 3-2 and video based CUE errors are gone. But with material that uses an alternating 3-2 cadence (most of the Disney animated DVDs), you will see a flickering problem in solid colors. The Pioneer solution also doesn’t have a chroma filter for 4:2:0 ICP, while the Faroudja, HQV, and DVDO solutions do have this."

I have almost every Disney movie imaginable...so would I prefer 79 or 59 for animation. I don't care about HDMI 1.1 and "direct" 480i over HDMI right now. I will purchase one of these players...I am letting the experts on this panel direct me which way.

The 79AVi has the exact same CUE problems as the 59AVi.

The 79AVi has the exact same CUE problems as the 59AVi.


This is very disappointing. Pioneer had an opportunity to fix the issues
on an already excellent DVD player ( 59 AVi ) and give us a reference quality
machine but instead decided not to for whatever reason...

I guess the largest percentage of the DVD market has not heard of the
CUE problems?

It is not really Pioneer that is responsible for CUE issues, it is the MPEG decoder manufacturers. As long as Pioneer keeps getting their chips from the same manufacturer they will continue to have the same issues. The only way around it is filtering.

Some do ………(albeit in a piecemeal fashion, one just has to look)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5614597&&#post5614597

but sir I disagree -

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6442818&&#post6442818

And………
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5651793&&#post5651793

O.K., I will -

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5654491&&#post5654491

Perhaps Carl Sundbom and umr wear lab coats with different lettering compared to Kris?

Ah…… decisions, decisions………………

I am gathering your point is there are plenty of people who understand what Kris is talking about and I agree with you. You may even feel that some of these people are able to diagnose on the same level that Kris does, thats fine, I just didn't see anyone come up with anything more than a guess on the "issue" with the 79avi before Kris spilled the beans. Anyway, it still looks to me like the "experts" are still taking stabs at this thing, trying to decide what they see or don't see, whether it matters or doesn't matter, its all in good fun.

Andy

its all in good fun.
Andy
Precisely !

Penton-Man

P.S. - If you know of where I can get a killer deal on a New In Box Arcam 27A, please P.M. ...............P-M.

OK Kris...thanks for answer. If you read this, please give me your opinion (I am tired of taking all the data in at this point...and staying up way too late reading this stuff :confused: ). Putting price-point aside, would you pick 59avi, 79avi, Denon 2910, or Panny S77/S97...I am strictly speaking for HDMI upconverting for 1:1 pixel mapping to 720p digital FP for best video quality, period. Lets assume that I will never ever buy an external scaler.

Just wait for the 2nd gen Ruby !

That is exactly what I am doing!

:)

Sorry Rob.

The boxing day (I should say "boxing week" here...) is crazy... Not enough time to post!

To answer your question. The 79AVi was direct to the Ruby at 480i over HDMI when I took those screenshots. No scaler. The Ruby is doing all the processing.

I'm pretty happy with the results. :D

And don't forget that the Ruby is OOTB, w/o any greyscale calibration or anything. Plug and play. Calibration will be done in 2 or 3 weeks.

Thanks Levesque. Very impressive!

The 79AVi was direct to the Ruby at 480i over HDMI when I took those screenshots. No scaler. The Ruby is doing all the processing.

Didn't you post in one of the Ruby Threads you thought the 79avi 1080i HDMI signal was your best performer? Maybe you have changed your mind.

Didn't you post in one of the Ruby Threads you thought the 79avi 1080i HDMI signal was your best performer? Maybe you have changed your mind.

I know. It was just a calibration problem. It was fresh out of the box. But after playing with the projector and DVD player combo alot, I'm using 480i over HDMI now.

OK Kris...thanks for answer. If you read this, please give me your opinion (I am tired of taking all the data in at this point...and staying up way too late reading this stuff :confused: ). Putting price-point aside, would you pick 59avi, 79avi, Denon 2910, or Panny S77/S97...I am strictly speaking for HDMI upconverting for 1:1 pixel mapping to 720p digital FP for best video quality, period. Lets assume that I will never ever buy an external scaler.

Right now from that list I would probably go with the 59AVi. Since I've been a bit busy this week I haven't had any real chance to mess with the 79AVi to see how this issue affects real world viewing, but I also can't in good conscience recommend a player that I know has an issue that the other doesn't. They both perform the same in regards to video processing from what I can gather so other than a different build and HDMI 1.1, there doesn't seem to be any real significant difference. So why would I suggest now the player that I am seeing an obvious problem with. And believe me this is quite obvious with the material I have, not some small nitpick. If I showed you the issue you would have absolutely no delusions about it.

Right now from that list I would probably go with the 59AVi. Since I've been a bit busy this week I haven't had any real chance to mess with the 79AVi to see how this issue affects real world viewing, but I also can't in good conscience recommend a player that I know has an issue that the other doesn't. They both perform the same in regards to video processing from what I can gather so other than a different build and HDMI 1.1, there doesn't seem to be any real significant difference. So why would I suggest now the player that I am seeing an obvious problem with. And believe me this is quite obvious with the material I have, not some small nitpick. If I showed you the issue you would have absolutely no delusions about it.

Could you say with what material you are using to see this problem. I would like to see if there is also a problem with my 79avi.

Thanks for your help, Bill

Right now from that list I would probably go with the 59AVi. Since I've been a bit busy this week I haven't had any real chance to mess with the 79AVi to see how this issue affects real world viewing, but I also can't in good conscience recommend a player that I know has an issue that the other doesn't. They both perform the same in regards to video processing from what I can gather so other than a different build and HDMI 1.1, there doesn't seem to be any real significant difference. So why would I suggest now the player that I am seeing an obvious problem with. And believe me this is quite obvious with the material I have, not some small nitpick. If I showed you the issue you would have absolutely no delusions about it.


Kris, are you going to be able to get a 2nd unit to see if it's just a bad unit or what you see is inherent with this model?

Could you say with what material you are using to see this problem. I would like to see if there is also a problem with my 79avi.

Right now I have only tested it with the WHQL resolution wedges that rotate around the screen. That is where I noticed the problem. AVIA Pro has some wedges like this too that I may try. I haven't played with the player with regular material yet, but I don't know if you would see the issue. Essentially the bottom of the screen would be in a video or "bob" mode with the upper end of the resolution missing and the middle and upper part would be fine.

Kris, are you going to be able to get a 2nd unit to see if it's just a bad unit or what you see is inherent with this model?

Of course I am going to try. I haven't heard anything back from Pioneer yet but I didn't expect to with the holidays. Probably won't hear anything at all from them until after CES.

I really value Kris' findings. Way more than magazines or other forum members' views. I've never read a magazine review where it'd say "we saw a problem with the reviewed unit and don't recommend this". I haven't seen anyone else on this thread say they didn't like the 79avi yet, so that's good but if the first person was anyone else other than Kris, most of us would have been all over this guy. Kris has the credibility to say he sees a problem and we all at least give him the benefit of the doubt.

I for one will wait for Kris' findings. I remember awhile ago, picking up a DVD player based on forum members' opinions, the Momitsu. This was before Kris tested the unit. I thought any of the upscaling modes was terrible with it and have it now on 480i. I think I was one of the first people on here who said it wasn't a good machine. Had all kinds of replies on how to "fix" my picture. Then Kris reviewed the unit and reassured me I wasn't hallucinating. Made me wonder what everyone else was thinking though with their high praises?

Right now I have only tested it with the WHQL resolution wedges that rotate around the screen. That is where I noticed the problem. AVIA Pro has some wedges like this too that I may try. I haven't played with the player with regular material yet, but I don't know if you would see the issue. Essentially the bottom of the screen would be in a video or "bob" mode with the upper end of the resolution missing and the middle and upper part would be fine.


Kris,

Thanks for your reply. I wonder if anyone else with the 79avi has the WHQL disc so they could run the same tests as you have.

Thanks again, Bill

Wow, leave for a few days and look what happens. :) Nice to see folks didn't get too carried away.

larry

Anyone know how to get ahold of one of these WHQL test discs?

I can't afford AVIA Pro - but I have Avia, getting DVE, and have the HQV disc as well. I'm wondering if any patterns on any of those may help out. I don't have my player yet, but might as well get ready for it...(damn preorders taking forever)...

Right now from that list I would probably go with the 59AVi.

Thanks for the reply Kris...since the Marantz 7600 is in that price range (and has the same Pioneer guts) would it be similar in image. I don't mean to hi-jack the 79avi thread but it seems to have the most traffic concerning all things Pioneer right now. I know you haven't had a chance to view it but it sounds like it has really good reviews. My main concern at the moment is that pesky CUE...and how much it will rear its ugly head between 7600 and 59avi (assuming no special filtering like the other competition). Keep in mind I am not only going for the best visual, but the best WAF ;) If I bring home a CUE ridden image for $500-$1000...I am toast. Bottom line is MB or CUE more annoying to the videophile.

Haven't got the 7600 yet, but I've had it on request for ages now. Even signed a loan agreement at some point, but still no show.

Wow, leave for a few days and look what happens. :)
larry
Cheese it. The cops ! :eek:

Right now I have only tested it with the WHQL resolution wedges that rotate around the screen.

Note to self: do not buy any DVDs that feature wedges rotating around the screen.

;)

Still waiting to read ANY post from someone seeing problems in real world viewing...

Bottom line is MB or CUE more annoying to the videophile.

For me, MB is definitely more annoying than the CUE. But, YMMV!

Cheese it. The cops ! :eek:

P.M.- Have I ever told you that you crack me up!?

Yes, some people may say that I am easily entertained, but what the heck...your post really did make me LOL!

Macroblocking is far more annoying than CUE in my opinion, especially since CUE now has been pretty much contained to alternating 3-2 material.

Still waiting to read ANY post from someone seeing problems in real world viewing...

I think I mentioned that this would be pretty hard to spot. If this is indeed affecting all 79AVi's than the affect would essentially be a loss of resolution for a portion of the image with moving objects. I looked at static resolution bars and there is no problem there. But if you have a higher resolution image that is moving, it is not holding the full resolution in the lower portion of the image. Now most people I know can't even tell the difference between when a DVD is doing film based or video based de-interlacing, but transitions bother me. I see the loss in resolution and it bugs me.

In other words, ignorance may be bliss here. I doubt most would even notice what I am talking about even if it affected all 79AVi with normal material, but if you saw a resolution pattern you would see how much you're missing in the image if this does indeed affect all players. So again, there is no way I would knowingly recommend a player that does that over one that doesn't. It would make no sense for someone in my position. I know I wouldn't use it.

So... if it's an anomaly that the majority of people would probably not ever be able to see, and it hasn't been determined if it affects more than just the one player, was it wise to reveal this as a "BAD BAD FLAW!!!" before all the data is in?

I'm not discounting the hard work you do, but I think it would have been better handled if things were kept under wraps until there was at least some level of certainty. What if it turns out that you have a bum unit and no others are affected? All this hand-wringing for nothing...

Just my $0.02.

P.S. This is NOT meant as a personal attack, just a differing opinion as to how the information was or was not revealed.

I don't know, how much flack would I get if I saw this right away and didn't say anything to you guys before you rushed out and bought one from all the hype? AVS'ers are usually a bit more picky when it comes to think than Joe Public. I just thought I would give you guys the heads up and at least give you the option of waiting to see what I find out before you drop your dough. Especially those who may just be upgrading from a 59AVi to a 79AVi. At the end of the day it really doesn't matter to me what you buy or don't buy, I am not seeing any of that money. I usually try to report things that I find pretty significant ahead of time though, to at least give you guys a heads up. I've never felt that a new player was a pressure buy. Personally I would rather wait and make sure I was getting what I hoped for before I dropped my money.

Personally I thought I was doing you guys a favor, so take it how you want. If you'd rather, I could just stop reporting anything I find and everyone can just wait until a benchmark or an article comes out instead. That way you can take the word of the people who dropped their money on it on day one and report "ooh it looks amazing!" and just about anything else that makes them feel better about their investment. No offense, but I've found that most people try not to say anything bad about things that they've bought, especially early adopters. They don't want to think that they're the one that got the bad buy or suckered in. Unfortunately electronics tend to have performance that can be all over the place. You can have a great product from a company and then they follow it up with a really crappy one, or vice versa. You just never know. Another bad thing is people get caught up on the tech specs and feature lists. They think that the player will be the same or better and the only thing different is new features. That is rarely the truth. This is what is happening with the whole HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray fiasco in my opinion. Everyone is drooling over specs and marketing hype and have absolutely nothing concrete to base their preferences on. They are getting bent on the space=quality arguement which I find absurd. Look how many DVD-9's there are out there loaded with useless crap that the studios think entices you to buy them and then look at how much space the actual movie takes up. Most DVD-9 movies will fit with no compresssion onto a DVD-5 if you dropped all the useless crap. I don't think the new formats will be any different. But that is another arguement I guess. I am starting to ramble now.

P.S. This is NOT meant as a personal attack, just a differing opinion as to how the information was or was not revealed.

I hold the opposite opinion, members are best served letting the cat out of the bag, as soon as there is something worthy of concern.

I know Kris has nothing but the best intentions when he presents his comments. However, it's always easy to take issue with the messenger.

Personally, I would be more upset if I had purchased the player during your suggested period of time Kris should remain silent. That's no good.

IMHO, Kris is handling the matter in a very even handed manner. I trust he will either get to the bottom of the matter and help pioneer correct the problem, let us know it was an isolated issue, or it's a tiny thorn on an otherwise very attractive rose.

I understand your point about the wringing of hands, but that's what we do and is at the very core of our appreciation of HT.

I trust he will either get to the bottom of the matter and help pioneer correct the problem, let us know it was an isolated issue, or it a tiny thorn on an otherwise very attractive rose

That is exactly what I plan to do. That is always the plan for the most part.

Personally I thought I was doing you guys a favor, so take it how you want.
That’s exactly what you did, and you did a good job at it, ESPECIALLY in regards to current 59avi owners contemplating a 79avi purchase.

You can’t be blamed for people that read too little or too much into your reporting.

Keep up the good work Kris ! :)

I don't know, how much flack would I get if I saw this right away and didn't say anything to you guys before you rushed out and bought one from all the hype? ...I just thought I would give you guys the heads up and at least give you the option of waiting to see what I find out before you drop your dough. Especially those who may just be upgrading from a 59AVi to a 79AVi.

Personally I thought I was doing you guys a favor, so take it how you want.
Kris -- I'd bet at least 90% of the people who view this thread -- many of whom (I'm guessing) lurk without posting -- are EXTREMELY appreciative of your efforts. I, for one, was planning on upgrading my 59AVi to a 79AVi, and am waiting (with baited breath) to learn more.

Some of us -- I think -- may feel that this is a "test pattern" problem that might not affect normal viewing. Though I'm taking a "wait and see" attitude I'd like to learn as much as I can about our hobby/addiction, and -- in my experience -- once you learn how to see artifacts, glitches, and other assorted video nasties there is NO going back. It is good to have someone like you around who can teach me things I do not know [I used to know everything, but then I got married and realized just how ignorant I actually am :D]...

So, thanks for your efforts, and please keep posting your thoughts and findings!

Though I'm taking a "wait and see" attitude I'd like to learn as much as I can about our hobby/addiction, and -- in my experience -- once you learn how to see artifacts, glitches, and other assorted video nasties there is NO going back.
THAT’S the key. Education and experienced viewing INEVITABLY leads to a more refined and critical eye……the learning curve is just different for different people due to a multiplicity of factors.

You may not see some of the things that Kris sees NOW but who’s to say that a year or two down the line, you don’t appreciate the flaw and by then you’ve already dropped the $$ on a player that Kris had red-flagged.

In this case, at this point in time, I don't believe that Kris either underestimated or overestimated the finding he reported.

He simply gave everyone a Heads-Up !

P.M.- Have I ever told you that you crack me up!?

Yes, some people may say that I am easily entertained, but what the heck...your post really did make me LOL!
Well, then in an effort to provide some comic relief to a dramatic milestone in the history of this thread………………..see…………….

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6802779&&#post6802779

Penton - That's a Good one

I have no problem with the Heads Up.

In my situation, the 79 is a fine improvement. My system is far less demanding than most in this thread. Good chance I'm less demanding as well ;)
I can see and hear the difference in my system (not yours) The report is interesting, but it will not kill my fun.

Still a great thread guys!

There's Always A Bigger Fish (and another player)

The Blissfully Ignorant E

Hi !

Kris what do you think about this picture ?

http://www.blue69.co.uk/ebay/989-pic.jpg

taken on avforum (British forum). This effect only appears on DVD menus !

Kris,

As much as I hope this is a problem isolated to the unit you have, I still appreciate the way that you posted the problem on the 79avi. Your comment about some people not wanting to hear the negative side of a product they just bought is very true (I'm one of them). Your advice to me was to keep the 59avi but after a lot of thought decided to get the 79avi.

But I bought the 79avi knowing there could be an issue with it but after following your posts on what to look for have not been able to see it. The problem could very well be in my 79avi but to be quite honest I do not have the skill some people here have to see it.

I also think you are right that people would be better served to know if a component has an issue than not to know it. If this problem stood out on my 79avi I would be on my way back to Magnolia hoping the 59avi I returned was still there. Thanks for your hard work and for passing it on to everyone at AVS.

Bill

I also do hope it is an isolated issue. Like I have stated, I really don't see anything bad with my 79avi - in fact it looks excellent-but I do hope that you know for certain before three weeks from now. If there really is a problem I might return it and try out the Onkyo SP1000 which I almost bought to start with.....either that or get a cheapy player and just wait for HD?!....NAH...who am I kidding. :D

Personally I would rather wait and make sure I was getting what I hoped for before I dropped my money. ...

Personally I thought I was doing you guys a favor, so take it how you want.


You absolutely did ME a favour by reporting your initial results. I would say you at least did me a favour on the order of 1000 clams as I was all set to get a new player for xmas.

So if it is not stated clearly enough, This forum member unequivocally appreciates the advance findings of your reports!

Please don't let the small vocal minority of owners who's objectivity has been compromised by their purchase, dissuade you from helping the silent majority that reads these threads.

Hi !

Kris what do you think about this picture ?

http://www.blue69.co.uk/ebay/989-pic.jpg

taken on avforum (British forum). This effect only appears on DVD menus !

Interesting, but I don't think their related. Without seeing what that looks like in real time I have no idea what that could be. Might be a comb though. I don't have Ice Age on DVD anymore, I got rid of it when I got my D-Theater copy. I'll see if any of my friends have it though and look at it.

The issue I'm seeing would be a drop in resolution (very soft image) in the bottom of a the screen with a moving image. I wish there was a way to capture it so I could post it but I've had no luck.

I, as I am sure many others, absolutely appreciate your efforts regarding the advanced testing of these players Kris. In the process you will of course uncover things that people may not want to know or hear, but I do think the majority of people here will agree that finding these issues as soon as possible and informing the members here is a service that is without a doubt very helpful.

...and yes, I will admit that your findings have helped me as well as I currently own the 59avi and had thought about upgrading. I will hold on now to see how everything shakes out with this...

I just received this player yesterday. I upgraded from the DV-38A and held off upgrading to the DV-59AVi because I felt it wasn't as good of a build.

Pioneer has done good with this unit. After the DV-09, which I also had, the remaining Elite DVD players were simply not as good in build quality until now. Now since I have more invested in audio and wanted a good dual use player, the DV-79AVi transport is important to me. The disc tray seems to be more stable than previous players, with the exception of the DV-09.

The internal menus are good and after adjustment on a Mits WD-62525, I would say the picture improved about almost 10% over the DV-38A. (Using a 3m 1080p capable HDMI cable).

I went ahead and got the Onkyo SP1000 anyway just to contrast and compare. I guess I will return the loser. I got the Sp1000 for ony $450.00 more so we will see if it's worth it.

I have noticed some MB issues still with the Pioneer 79avi on Finding Nemo but from what I have read this is a fairly common issue with that movie on a lot pf players. I will see if the Sp1000 does it also.

I have noticed some MB issues still with the Pioneer 79avi on Finding Nemo but from what I have read this is a fairly common issue with that movie on a lot pf players. I will see if the Sp1000 does it also.
I bet what you are seeing is in the actual DVD. The Pioneers do not have the dreaded MB error since they do not use the Faroudja chip.

That's what I thought as that is why I got rid of my Denon 2910. Everything else is awesome. So the Dvd would be like that? Seems kinda cheesy.

Does anyone know how the PQ compares from the Sp1000 to the 79avi?

Does anyone know how the PQ compares from the Sp1000 to the 79avi?


Give us your take on any differences you see. I'm sure any differences will be real small but we want to know what you think.

That problem posted by XOBA is Pure Progressive related on a Pioneer Plasma. Only in Auto 1 it happens...

Kris,

Consider this another pat on the back post of support. I won't repeat anymore since it's been said many times and many ways (heh).

Anyhow, just keep doing what you're doing. Your opinions and tests are one of many useful and (in my mind) required hoops for players to jump through as I evaluate them. Thanks.

That problem posted by XOBA is Pure Progressive related on a Pioneer Plasma. Only in Auto 1 it happens...


so you're saying that problem will only occur on a pioneer plasma? (with the setting auto 1 only)

kris
thanks for the update on the 79avi.
I am getting a sony ruby soon and was thinking of upgrading my present player, a denon 1910l

I'm using the 79AVi at 480i over HDMI. Just look at my screenshots a couple of pages back with my Ruby.

Tell me if you see something wrong with those shots. :D

And if you are really considering the Ruby, then you will need to use a good scaler, and 480i over HDMI is the ticket. So you could use a 59AVi also with good results.

if you're getting a ruby, i would output the dvd player with 480i and let the projector do the scaling. the scaler in the ruby is far superior to those in the dvd player's you mentioned. of all of them (assuming you will do 480i), get the 59avi or 79avi as they are the only ones of your list that will do it. cheers!!!


levesque, you beat me to it!!!!

Well, it pretty much goes without saying at this point, but I will anyway: Thanks for the heads up Kris! I think the responses make it clear that there are many more of us who appreciate your immediate feedback on this issue vs. those who feel you should have withheld your findings pending further research on a different unit. Keep up the great work!

I'll bite. What's a Sony Ruby? Sounds like it might be a scaler, but I am not aware that Sony markets any scalers or video processors. Sorry for the off-topic question.

Nickname for Sony's 2nd gen, $10K, SXRD 1080p front projector.

so the picture will be better feeding the ruby 480i inctead of its native 1080i rate?
levesque, those pictures are stunning.. what is your screen size?

Nickname for Sony's 2nd gen, $10K, SXRD 1080p front projector.

And they had to start a new dedicated AVS forum just for it:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=146

:D

samalmoe

110" dia (8' wide) Da-Lite Hi-Power. Click on the link in my signature to see the details...

Let's stay focused on the 79avi. Some "drifting" can't be helped but pretend you are looking for info on the 79avi and have to wade through pages/posts of other things. Thanks.

larry

For me, even if the flaw Kris observed is inherent in the design of this player, I'll still probably pick it up. Audio is actually more important to me than video and assuming the extra weight of the 79 over the 59 makes a difference, that's enough to justify the small difference in cost between the two.

In this player's class, the SP1000 and 3910 have their own flaws as well, right? With that being the case, the 79avi is still the most bang for the buck. In my system, the SP1000 exhibited the lip sync problem. The 3910 has MB. The 79avi apparently has a problem no one has noticed except with a very, very trained eye on a test pattern.

I'm sure there are already quite a few owners of 79AVI's on this thread.
What I would like to know is if anyone has actually been able to notice the bug discovered by Kris viewing normal (not test) DVDs.

If no one has been able to see the problem on "normal" DVDs with so many 79AVA owners knowing what to look for, and I would assume looking real hard, I think I will not cancel my order for the 79AVI. :)

I'm sure there are already quite a few owners of 79AVI's on this thread.
What I would like to know is if anyone has actually been able to notice the bug discovered by Kris viewing normal (not test) DVDs.

If no one has been able to see the problem on "normal" DVDs with so many 79AVA owners knowing what to look for, and I would assume looking real hard, I think I will not cancel my order for the 79AVI. :)

I would not cancel the order. I have not been able to see any issues with my 79avi. The issue could be isolated to the 79avi that Kris has (hopefully), if not I'm still very happy with mine.

Bill

Unbelievable. How many brain cells does it take to think "Gee, I'm posting off topic, and I was just asked not to. Maybe I should not post or start a new thread"? The main reason I wanted to be a mod here is to try and make things a little easier to find in this thread. I'm going to do try and do that even if some of you don't want that to happen - as shown by total disregard for my requests. (And I do appreciate the others who help out and provide info and answers to the endless duplicate questions/threads and put data in the info stickies.) This is a popular thread about a new player and for the most part has stayed on track. Nobody is perfect and one or two unrelated posts doesn't cloud things like one or two PAGES of OT posts.

PLEASE don't reply to this post. I'm going to delete it and hopefully things will go forward on topic like nothing ever happened. :)

larry

I went ahead and got the Onkyo SP1000 anyway just to contrast and compare.


It's been some months since I owned the 1000. Looking forward to your A/B. I'd be most interested in your Digital & Direct 5.1 audio thoughts/opinion. Memory fades ;)

E

I think people who are saying "the problem only shows up on test material" are missing the point. The whole point of test patterns is that they reveal exactly what the player is doing. If a test pattern shows an anomaly, that anomaly exists, period. You have to interpret what the test pattern is showing you to understand the impact of the bug. It might escape notice during normal viewing, being largely masked by the motion and complexity of the scene, but it's still there.

I have a 79avi and Avia and DVE at home, but not Avia Pro. If there are useful test patterns that I could try I'm happy to do so. Also Kris, I live in the Seattle area and would be willing to bring mine over for testing. Let me know if you want to do that.

I don't think anyone's missing the point, it's just been irrelavant because nobody in 26 pages and months of use noticed anything funky.
It would be like taking a microscope to your carpet or mattress. There's all kinds of nasty stuff in there but do you really care when you go to bed at night?
Some people are going to let Kris's results drive them crazy and some are just gonna keep enjoying what they don't notice.

It would be like taking a microscope to your carpet or mattress. There's all kinds of nasty stuff in there but do you really care when you go to bed at night?


Actually, my mom (rest her soul!) would not sleep before the microbes were 86. I'm setting the world straight by being a slob (now that she's 86) and eagerly awaiting my first haunting.

OK
Real world viewing proves fine by current owners.

WHQL test discs have been viewed by Kris and no one else - YET?
Real world viewing by Kris is shunned before actual real world viewing - via WHQL test disc law by Kris.

Air goes out of open wallets across the thread, as we wait for the 3rd act.

Does this just about sum it up?

Oh and Kris - No diss intended - only humor;)

E

OK
Real world viewing proves fine by current owners.

WHQL test discs have been viewed by Kris and no one else - YET?
Real world viewing by Kris is shunned before actual real world viewing - via WHQL test disc law by Kris.

Air goes out of open wallets across the thread, as we wait for the 3rd act.

Does this just about sum it up?

Yes, it does actually. ;)

I've been trying to stay out of this because my experience has been positive with this player in every way, shape, and form. In fact, the PQ is literally stunning with all material from film to animation. I have been running 480i to my 1130 though, so will spend some time this weekend with different settings and a bunch of DVDs to see if I can pick up this "motion-softening" bug. I'll be back.

-bd

I think people who are saying "the problem only shows up on test material" are missing the point. The whole point of test patterns is that they reveal exactly what the player is doing. If a test pattern shows an anomaly, that anomaly exists, period. You have to interpret what the test pattern is showing you to understand the impact of the bug. It might escape notice during normal viewing, being largely masked by the motion and complexity of the scene, but it's still there.

I have a 79avi and Avia and DVE at home, but not Avia Pro. If there are useful test patterns that I could try I'm happy to do so. Also Kris, I live in the Seattle area and would be willing to bring mine over for testing. Let me know if you want to do that.

Brilliant! I would love the oppurtunity! PM me if I don't PM you first. Maybe we can arrange something for this weekend if you're not already obligated.

Yes, it does actually. ;)

I've been trying to stay out of this because my experience has been positive with this player in every way, shape, and form. In fact, the PQ is literally stunning with all material from film to animation. I have been running 480i to my 1130 though, so will spend some time this weekend with different settings and a bunch of DVDs to see if I can pick up this "motion-softening" bug. I'll be back.

-bd

Glad to hear that you've been enjoying the player but I might add that I clearly stated that the issue is not there if the player is set to 480i, since you are bypassing the Pioneer's video processing. I'll also add that you are barely enjoying the player but rather the video processor in your 1130 instead. The player is essentially a transport and nothing else.

Hello everybody. Well I was about to purchase this player until I reading this thread and saw Kris's posts. I have a Denon now that I am returning because the MB is driving me crazy, along with a few other problems. My question is to all the owners...are you happy with this player? Is the picture quality superb? How are the colors? Are there any real complaints about this player? From reading this thread it seems that it is an incredible player until Kris found this fatal flaw. Has anybody compared the PQ to the Denon? I was very pleased with the PQ from the Faroudja chip but hated the MB. Can I expect the same or better PQ from this player over the Denon? Owners please speak up to help me with my decision. Thanks!

spinn74, I have had the 79Avi for more than a month now and have watched dozens of dvds on it... I have not seen any anomaly on any of the dvds I watched.

Aside from the video, the reason I like this player is its excellent analog audio section which I am using for decoding Dolby and DTS (via its analog 5.1 channel output) as well as playing CDs (via the 2 channel output).

My opinion on the problem is that it is probably not as bad as macroblocking or audio-sync because if it was, I and multitude of others using this player would probably have already noticed it. I have to admit though that I have been enjoying watching dvds as of late as opposed to analysing the image that comes out of them.

I myself would not hesitate to call spade a spade if I noticed something out of the ordinary just like I did on this forum when I personally experienced audio-sync issues with the first Samsung DLP HDTV I bought more than 2 years ago (an HLN567W). I subsequently had that unit replaced as I could not live with the flaw.

I am with the others when they say that Kris is doing a good job by exposing any flaw he detects with his testing of any player. However, I believe there has to be some sort of "scale" of the severity of the problem depending on how detectable it was in real world scenarios.

For example, my opinion is that real world flaws like audio-video sync, and perhaps macroblocking HAVE NOT been given more prominence in tests. To me these are problems that border on being showstoppers and hence should probably be high up there in the "scale" compared to CUE problems or resolution problems that might be very difficult to see unless one runs specific test on specific dvds.

Just my 2 cents...

spinn, I cannot resist giving my opinion - get the 59ai. Sorry, but I just cannot recommend the 79ai right now since the 59ai appears to have the same PQ as the 79ai without the "flaw" (if anyone has done a direct comparison with both players hooked up at the same time, not a comparison from memory, that says otherwise, I'd love to hear it).

I have had this player (79AVi) for a little over a week.
I really haven`t had time to use it has much as I would have normaly done in a weeks time.
However , I have watched a few movies , and listened to a few cd`s and SACD`s.
I think that the player has some issues , but to be honest , what player doesn`t ?
Some players can do this better, some can do that better.
The main thing is to keep in mind that this is only a 1000 dollar player.
So what do I mean ? Simple , there are players out there that cost 5 even 10 times what the DV-79AVi cost and those aren`t perfect either.
You must consider that SD-DVD`s are just that , sure you can flex the technology to get more out of it , but something will always be amiss when you do.
As far as those wanting the 59 instead of the 79 , go for it !
If you want the 79 over the 59 , same deal , go for it.
In the end there is fault with all players.
Nobody , I`m saddened to say , makes a perfect player , at least not aware of.
I say this , enjoy what you have be it 59 or 79 , as they are both good players , not great but good. I have never brought a 59 home , so I can`t say much about it other than what I`ve read.
Now your asking , "are you keeping your 79 " ?
I still have time to return it , but for what?
Is this the bridge that I was talking about ? Hard to say , I need much more time with it.
Most places will give you 30 days to try it out , so give it a shot and see if it works for you. When you consider all the variables from transport to picture , a heck of a lot takes place.
If I were to call this my 2 cents , it would be wrong.
So I`ll call it my dime instead !!
Happy New Year , and I certainly hope 2006 is a kinder year.
Good luck and God Bless!
Gary

Hello everybody. Well I was about to purchase this player until I reading this thread and saw Kris's posts. I have a Denon now that I am returning because the MB is driving me crazy, along with a few other problems. My question is to all the owners...are you happy with this player? Is the picture quality superb? How are the colors? Are there any real complaints about this player? From reading this thread it seems that it is an incredible player until Kris found this fatal flaw. Has anybody compared the PQ to the Denon? I was very pleased with the PQ from the Faroudja chip but hated the MB. Can I expect the same or better PQ from this player over the Denon? Owners please speak up to help me with my decision. Thanks!

I had a Denon 2910 and liked it quite well except for an overly green cast sometimes, but the serious one was MB'ing, to which it is prone on dlp's. Was fortunately able to return it to Magnolia and get a 59avi for only a bit over $100, and I have been delighted! The colors are perfect (to me, an enthusiastic amateur, but not a 'pro'), and I'm satistfied in every way. I note, too, that having the Mits ISF'ed with the 59avi REALLY brought it home!

I guess my question is will this player produce an image on par with the Faroudja chip without the excessive MB? I was happy with the Denon when MB was not there.

I guess my question is will this player produce an image on par with the Faroudja chip without the excessive MB? I was happy with the Denon when MB was not there.

YES! (IMHO)

spinn, I cannot resist giving my opinion - get the 59ai. Sorry, but I just cannot recommend the 79ai right now since the 59ai appears to have the same PQ as the 79ai without the "flaw" (if anyone has done a direct comparison with both players hooked up at the same time, not a comparison from memory, that says otherwise, I'd love to hear it).

I think people should wait to see if the "flaw" is isolated to the unit that Kris has. If it is an across the board problem with all 79avi's then it would be an issue. I still have not seen mention of someone else having seen this "flaw" other than Kris.

If you have to go out and spend $39.95 for the WHQL disc to see it then I'm not worried in the least if my 79avi has the "flaw". I think cyclocommuter is right as far as MB and audio-sync are much more serious "flaws" than the yet to be determined "flaw"on the 79avi.

I would recommend both the 59avi or the 79avi, I'm sure you can get a 59avi for less than the 79avi. But my choice was for the 79avi, one thing I have not seen is much mention is the audio differences between the two.

Bill

I think people should wait to see if the "flaw" is isolated to the unit that Kris has. If it is an across the board problem with all 79avi's then it would be an issue.
I agree 100%. But for those asking which to get right now, I stand by my answer to get the 59ai since both seem to give the same PQ and only 1 one them might have this flaw.

There is no doubt that the MB bug is far worse than this problem when it comes to affecting video playback. I've already said that a lot of people may not even notice this issue in normal viewing. Even CUE would stand out more.

I guess my question is will this player produce an image on par with the Faroudja chip without the excessive MB? I was happy with the Denon when MB was not there.
Both the Pioneer and Denon are great players. If you have MB with the Faroudja chip and your display, then the Pioneer is obviously the far better choice. If you do not have MB with your display, then it's six of one, half a dozen of the other (there have been numerous comparison threads, arguing back and forth as to which is better, which suggests to me that they are pretty comparable, depending on the display).

Kris,

Is this the test disc you use:
http://www.hqv.com/benchmark.cfm?

Glad to hear that you've been enjoying the player but I might add that I clearly stated that the issue is not there if the player is set to 480i, since you are bypassing the Pioneer's video processing. I'll also add that you are barely enjoying the player but rather the video processor in your 1130 instead. The player is essentially a transport and nothing else.

Which is why I said I'd be testing it this weekend at different settings. C'mon, Kris... responses to this "issue" have you on the defensive or something?? ;)

I bought it as a DVD and multi-channel music transport as I'm hoping to defeat the 1130 media receiver's processor to use the VP30. I'll play along though, to see if I can isolate this issue you've identified.

-bd

I wondered about something: Kris stated that the flaw only occurs in the lower third of the picture and affects only vertical resolution.

I'm assuming that the WHQL test disc pattern is vertically unfiltered, whereas every DVD definitly is vertically filtered. (Even though I don't know by how much...)

So, could it be that this "flaw" is for all practical purposes undetectable on "real" movies. In other words, does the Pio vertically put out high enough frequencies that all the resolution of a (vertically filtered) DVD does get passed along anyway?

As it happens only in upscaling mode, maybe Pioneer wanted to limit the processiong power needed to pass along an unfiltered upscaled image?But then again, why only on a third of the image?

Good work Kris, it's this kind of detective work that leads to better players down the road :-) Thanks.

spinn, I cannot resist giving my opinion - get the 59ai. Sorry, but I just cannot recommend the 79ai right now since the 59ai appears to have the same PQ as the 79ai without the "flaw" (if anyone has done a direct comparison with both players hooked up at the same time, not a comparison from memory, that says otherwise, I'd love to hear it).

Unfortunately in my neck of the woods dealers either don't have the 59 anymore or are asking close to list price for it.
The one dealer that has both in stock wants MORE for the 59 than the 79 and the difference is considerable. You'd think they would heavily discount the 59 to move them out.

It isn't just the bottom of the image, it is the right side as well. Using the cadence tests on AVIA Pro showed the exact same thing. The resolution wedge breaks up with fast motion on the right side of the image and can't hold the resolution or film mode de-interlacing at all in the vertical direction. Switching over to my Denon 5910, I didn't have any of the same issues. It held the patterns the entire time with no distortions at all. I even tried different settings for progressive motion, progressive mode and NR in the Pioneer all to no avail.

I did some normal viewing with the 79 this morning and with regular material I didn't detect anything out of the ordinary. The image looks very clean, detailed and 3 dimensional. Excellent in about every respect. I will continue to look at normal material for awhile and see if I spot anything, but so far so good. I am hoping that Chouca will make it over this weekend to see if this problem is isolated to only my player.

Kris,

Is this the test disc you use:
http://www.hqv.com/benchmark.cfm?

That is not the WHQL disc. The full name for the disc in question would be the Microsoft WHQL (Windows Hardware Quality Labs) HCT (Hardware Compatibility Test) DVD Test Annex.

Try some of those words in a search engine; you'll find the source of the disc.

The Silicon Optix test disc doesn't use resolution wedges for their cadence tests. So you don't see if the player can maintain the full resolution of the image with the different cadences (although the Realta HQV chip can hold the full resolution without any issues). It uses a sequence shot on film and sped up to allow for the different cadences.

I confess to not necessarily understanding the "numbers" on these various DVD players, but I notice the 59 has 14/216 video DAC while the 79 is a 14/108. Could this have anything to do with it?
Have they gone with a cheaper DAC to bring the price down thereby unknowingly creating this issue?

Kris,

The test you did on the 79avi that shows the resolution problem is it a test you do on all your in depth tests? I'm sure the answer is yes but I am just curious. And if you do is the 79avi the first to have problems? It would be nice if Chris Williams (I think that is his name) from Pioneer that was on the forum for awhile would chime in on this issue. Your thoughts on normal viewing with the 79avi are very encouraging.

Thanks for your help, Bill

The DAC only has to do with the component video outputs. I have been testing the HDMI output so far.

The sampling rate is lower with the 79AVi than the 59AVi, but I doubt anyone could tell the difference between the two. It is more than enough for SD video.

I do have one question about the loss of resolution. Does the loss appear to be back to 480 lines, or does it fall farther?

I spent more than 2 hours yesterday trying to see something unusual or anything that could look like "loss of resolution" with my 79. I played Gladiator and the new Titanic, always in 1080i and tried very hard to see any difference between the left and right side with action scenes. All I can say, without being an expert, is that the 79 is much better than my old Sony 9000ES. The only thing that again came up was a kind of strobe effect in few scenes that happened only with the player in AUTO-2. With AUTO-1 or ON I couldn't see it. My display is a Mitsubishi 73927 which also has a "film mode" and perhaps this is conflicting with the AUTO-2. Should I turn the Mitsu "film mode" off?
I really believe that a good DVD will look very very close to hi-def, specially if you compare to HBO on Directv which is more like a "lite" hi-def.

I found the sound through I-LINK also better and very clear.

Just my 2 cents.

Sergio

The film mode on your Mits is probably only doing something if it is converting the 1080i signal to 540P. If it is keeping it at 1080i, it probably isn't doing anything. That is for 480i signals coming in.

In "On" or "Auto 1" the player goes into a video mode quite a bit with breaks in cadence or bad flagging. I haven't seen any strobing issues with Auto 2 yet though.

Thanks Kris. I guess the Mits is converting 1080i to 1080P, its native resolution. In this case do you think the film mode matters?

Sergio

Can somebody explain to me the benefit of having a DVD player and a receiver each equipped with i.LINK? The only benefit that I could find was that you can play SACD's with only 1 cable from the DVD player to the receiver. I use an optical connection now. I don't play SACD's and mainly watch movies. Would an i.LINK connection work better for me? Where is the audio decoding taking place? I understand right now that with an optical connection the decoding takes place in the receiver. So with i.LINK does it take place in the DVD player? If so am I missing out on the quality of the receiver? I need some help here....

My question is to all the owners...are you happy with this player? Is the picture quality superb? How are the colors? Are there any real complaints about this player? From reading this thread it seems that it is an incredible player until Kris found this fatal flaw. Has anybody compared the PQ to the Denon? I was very pleased with the PQ from the Faroudja chip but hated the MB. Can I expect the same or better PQ from this player over the Denon? Owners please speak up to help me with my decision. Thanks!


Spinn,
I went from the 2910 to this player because of the MB issue on my DLP. This player (on my set) blows away the PQ of the 2910. Even my significant other said "Wow". The sound is a step above also...especially on DVD Audio and SACD. I have not heard or seen the 59avi. I would get the player and try it. The worst that can happen is that you return it for something else. I am sure that Kris will have solved this mystery within 30 days and I doubt that you will see anything wrong with the player anyway. As far as the ilink, I don't use it as my pre does not have the capability but I sure would like to. Hope that helps.

Darla

Thanks Kris. I guess the Mits is converting 1080i to 1080P, its native resolution. In this case do you think the film mode matters?

Sergio

If the monitors resolution is 1080P (I take it this is a DLP 1080P unit?) than film mode does matter. It is essentially doing a "bob" de-interlace to 1080P. So the artifacts you are seeing probably have more to do with the display than the DVD player. On top of that, I would almost bet you that the image you are seeing is always in video mode so my test is a moot point. You would ALWAYS have a drop in resolution. But without seeing it in person or testing it there, I can't be positive on that.

I've been reading up on this thread for opinions from experienced 79 owners (59 owners as well) for PQ via component. I'm using a 2-year old Hitachi RP CRT as a display (lacking when compared to you seasoned veterans, I know), and it only has component inputs. However, all of the replies on this thread seem to be based on impressions via HDMI.

Does anyone have any opinions on the PQ from the component outputs only versus other players (3910, Pannys, etc)?? I have been demo'ing a 2910 but have been less than impressed on my display (no shadow detail, overall grainy quality). Will the 79/59 be overkill for my setup, or will I notice a considerably better picture (especially versus the 2910)? Thanks to all for any info.

Brilliant! I would love the oppurtunity! PM me if I don't PM you first. Maybe we can arrange something for this weekend if you're not already obligated.
That's fabulous news !

And who says Kris doesn't go the extra mile?

I hope you guys can hook up, this should prove interesting. :)

We're going to get together this weekend. He may even make it today.

As I've said the entire time I've been doing this, ANYONE is welcome to come over here and have a player tested or get an idea of what my testing involves. There aren't any Secrets here. I also welcome the oppurtunity to test players that members provide if they offer them and will ship them back promptly.

I can't wait to see what happens. Thank you Kris.

It isn't just the bottom of the image, it is the right side as well. Using the cadence tests on AVIA Pro showed the exact same thing. The resolution wedge breaks up with fast motion on the right side of the image and can't hold the resolution or film mode de-interlacing at all in the vertical direction. Switching over to my Denon 5910, I didn't have any of the same issues. It held the patterns the entire time with no distortions at all. I even tried different settings for progressive motion, progressive mode and NR in the Pioneer all to no avail.

I did some normal viewing with the 79 this morning and with regular material I didn't detect anything out of the ordinary. The image looks very clean, detailed and 3 dimensional. Excellent in about every respect. I will continue to look at normal material for awhile and see if I spot anything, but so far so good. I am hoping that Chouca will make it over this weekend to see if this problem is isolated to only my player.

Thanks Kris! I agree, after normal viewing with the 79, nothing out of the ordinary. I also agree that the image looks clean, detailed and 3-D. I also agree that it is excellent DVD player in about every aspect. I feel pretty good about this DVD player so far and feel that it was worth the wait to finally get a Pioneer that suceeds on all levels, especially the improvement in terms of build over previous Pioneers. I also agree with what you said earlier that the macroblocking is far worse of an issue comparatively to anything you could find with the 79. Happy New Year to all.

First, have a happy and safe 2006!

Second, can someone please take 2 minutes to condense the key differences between the 59AVi and 79AVi in a separate thread? Or, do it in one reply post within this thread?

Thanks.
Perhaps the most ironic is this…………………………

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6818950&&#post6818950

Or perhaps this dealer is on to something?

There are differences in advertised specs that I suppose you can pull up from the Pioneer site and there are differences in user’s findings. For the later, it may be best to read this whole thread from the beginning and decide for yourself, as the 79avi is rather new and at this point is proving controversial.