drigos

I think everybody here is missing the point. HD-DVDs or BR-DVDs will be avilable for a long time with past releases only. Think about the D-VHS which produces a wonderful picture but with the exception of 1 or 2 cases the movies are released way after the DVD. To launch a new release on HD format the studios would need a base of millions of users which will take a few years at least.

Now, lets assume you don't care for new releases and all you want is quality. You already have the D-VHS with probably more titles than the next 2 years of HD format DVDs. D-VHS is now a rare bird because any format will only pick up if it's available at you near Blockbuster (or the equivalent in Portugal).

The picture quality produced by the 79 when in 1080i resolution looks very very close to HD, specially here in US where most HD via satellite and cable are actually "HD-LITE" due to compression. I guess the HD DVDs will look fantastic but the 79 is also very good.

Enjoy your setup. I also have the 79 and the 74 receiver linked to a 73" Mitsubishi 1080P. Picture and sound are absolutely great and I have more than 10000 movies to choose. I watched RED EYE yesterday and I can say it's better than going to the theatre (although the movie itself sucks).

Boa noite!

sergio

i have spend a lot of money (more then 5000 euros) on the dv 79 and vsx 74 and ptae900 projector last month and on the end of this year they will be totally obsolete!!!!

No, they will NOT be!!

Don't you have any DVDs to play?

I have a lot, and I also have a lot of records to play on my 5000 euro TURNTABLE :cool:

Sounds like you got a bargain, enjoy!

I think Drigos will get the message. Please no more HiDef DVD or not to be HiDef DVD. Thanks. In fact, once he acknowledges with a sigh of relief :) , I'm going to punt these posts.

larry

Hi !

I have a question. Does any owner of this 79Avi also have the Yamaha RXV-4600 ?

Before placing an order, I would like to know if they are fully compatible through the i.link connection.

Thanks

Hey Guys

Sorry I haven't posted here in a bit. I promise I will have more info on the 79 by weekend's end. I just keep getting side tracked. Between work, the kid and my brother's constant phone calls trying to get me to play PGR3 via Xbox live I have been slacking in my duties.

By the way, the benchmark results for the 79AVi will be up within the next two weeks. I am going on a business trip at the end of next week so I will have everything wrapped up by then. Glad to see that some people have found some work arounds here. I will definately try them out and report back.

Xoba,

Yes, I have the 989AVi (euro version of 79Avi) and the Yamaha 4600. The i.link works like a dream for DVD, DVD-A and SACD. No messing and superb connection - the old analog cables cost a bundle more too. ilink is the way to go.

Hi !

I have a question. Does any owner of this 79Avi also have the Yamaha RXV-4600 ?

Before placing an order, I would like to know if they are fully compatible through the i.link connection.

Thanks

Hey Guys

Sorry I haven't posted here in a bit. I promise I will have more info on the 79 by weekend's end. I just keep getting side tracked. Between work, the kid and my brother's constant phone calls trying to get me to play PGR3 via Xbox live I have been slacking in my duties.

By the way, the benchmark results for the 79AVi will be up within the next two weeks. I am going on a business trip at the end of next week so I will have everything wrapped up by then. Glad to see that some people have found some work arounds here. I will definately try them out and report back.

Kris,

Thanks for the hard work and for your unbiased opinions. It makes me think that some reviews you see in some magazines are somewhat biased, where as your reviews/tests are not. So when it comes time to make a buying decision I have all the information I need (positive and negative). Will look forward to your results on the 79avi and also how it compares to the 59avi.

Thanks again, Bill

Everyone has a bit of bias in them, but I try not to let it affect their reviews. The players test how they test, I can't change that. I have been really impressed with Pioneer as of late. The 59AVi was a great player and a huge leap for them from their previous models. This also helped all the other companies out there that seem to use their platform so much, which gives everyone a lot of choices.

Kris,
Do you have access to a 59 for a direct comparison? It would be nice to hear about any subjective comparisons as well.

Also, it seems the market on this player has dropped off from your findings as members seem to be 'staying away' from this player due to the 'bug'. My perception, based on what I am reading, is that they view this as a fatal flaw equivalent to something worse than CUE or MB. Perhaps you can address this in your review. Of course, if my preception is off base feel free to ignore what I wrote. :)

Thanks

Kris,
Do you have access to a 59 for a direct comparison? It would be nice to hear about any subjective comparisons as well.

Also, it seems the market on this player has dropped off from your findings as members seem to be 'staying away' from this player due to the 'bug'. My perception, based on what I am reading, is that they view this as a fatal flaw equvalent to something worse than CUE or MB. Perhaps you can address this in your review. Of course, if my preception is off base feel free to ignore what I wrote. :)

Thanks

And to clarify, the "bug" doesn't exist in the 480i form, correct? (480i over HDMI being one of the great things about the 59 and 79...HDMI 1.1 being another great thing about the 79)

It will all of course be reviewed and commented on in the review.

Also, it seems the market on this player has dropped off from your findings as members seem to be 'staying away' from this player due to the 'bug'. My perception, based on what I am reading, is that they view this as a fatal flaw equvalent to something worse than CUE or MB.

Within our tight little community of non owners, your perception is probably right on.

E

It's definitely caused me to at least wait for the Secrets Review.

It's definitely caused me to at least wait for the Secrets Review.

Me too. I am just afraid I won't be able to find a 59 if I wait to much longer..

I am really curious as to how this resolution "flaw" will be explained, if ever.

The gladiator scenes mentioned throw off almost any player de-interlacers, and like Dale said: as soon as a player goes into video (progressive motion) mode, artifacts 'will' happen.

The question is: did Pioneer try a different, new, solution to compensate known problems, and are we just seeing the consequences of this choice, or is it a bug?

The ultimate question is: does the pio fare worse than other players on the same material or not. (though it should ideally do better of course)

The ultimate question is: does the pio fare worse than other players on the same material or not. (though it should ideally do better of course)
Kris' posts make it sound like the problem does not occur with the 59ai.

I am really curious as to how this resolution "flaw" will be explained, if ever.

The gladiator scenes mentioned throw off almost any player de-interlacers, and like Dale said: as soon as a player goes into video (progressive motion) mode, artifacts 'will' happen.

The question is: did Pioneer try a different, new, solution to compensate known problems, and are we just seeing the consequences of this choice, or is it a bug?

The ultimate question is: does the pio fare worse than other players on the same material or not. (though it should ideally do better of course)

That is easy, my Denon 5910 doesn't have an issue with any of these test scenes. I haven't tried the VP30 with them yet but I'll check that too. I'll also check the new Classe player to see how the National Semi-Conducter chip does.

Well, I will be very happy if only the 5910 and the Classe pass the test since these are players that cost 5 to 10 times my 79. I will be upset, however, if a player below 1000 bucks can perform better than the 79.

Sergio

That is easy, my Denon 5910 doesn't have an issue with any of these test scenes. I haven't tried the VP30 with them yet but I'll check that too. I'll also check the new Classe player to see how the National Semi-Conducter chip does.

With the cost of the 5910 I would hope it would not have any issues. I think to compare the performance of the 5910 to the 79avi a little unfair would you not think?

Bill

With the cost of the 5910 I would hope it would not have any issues. I think to compare the performance of the 5910 to the 79avi a little unfair would you not think?

Bill

Not at all unfair.

If you want, you could compare a $100 DVD player to the 5910. Of course you would expect the 5910 to perform better. The question is how much better will it perform, and whether it is worth the extra cost to you. Some people want the very best PQ possible, and are willing to spend a lot of money on it. Others will be happy with very good PQ and are willing to put up with some minor issues rather than spending another $1500 or more to get rid of those issues. Others just want the best performing DVD player under a certain price point.

But as long as you know the price differences and consider that in the evaluation, there is nothing inherently "unfair" in comparing DVD players from difference price points.

There is a pretty popular $200ish player that outscored the 59, and dozens of other $1,000+ players, at Secrets...and that's certainly no secret.

In my mind, DVD playback AND sound quality on movies AND music are worth the extra bucks I paid for the 79; even if it doesn't fair too well in the tests. To me, it looks great, and sounds even better; especially with I-LINK. No regrets here, though I appreciate everyone's opinion, and understand that we all have our preferences.

Z

Z

Can someone PM me the best place to get th 79 online?

Kris' posts make it sound like the problem does not occur with the 59ai.
You're right, the 79 and the 59 have different problems on this scene.

The 59 seems to have classical de-interlacing problems, as it looses the 3-2 (or 2-2) cadence, and goes, however briefly, into video mode.

The 79 does something new, and therefore interesting. What it does exactly, that's the question.

But as long as you know the price differences and consider that in the evaluation, there is nothing inherently "unfair" in comparing DVD players from difference price points.

Especially considering they are both company flagships (here in North America). What other Pioneer would you compare to the Denon?

With the cost of the 5910 I would hope it would not have any issues. I think to compare the performance of the 5910 to the 79avi a little unfair would you not think?

Bill

I wasn't comparing them in that sense, the poster asked if a player could be shown that could pass those tests, I said there is. No worries. I understand the substantial price difference.

I just got finished with my round of tests on the 79AVi and I must say that I will probably have to stand by my original comments on it vs the 59AVi. The 79AVi has issues that just simply aren't there with the 59. This includes some mild CUE issues, failures with bad edits, and Y/C delay. It just seems to me that the 59AVi is a more groomed player without the issues. Switching the progressive speed to slow does eliminate the issue that I found in earlier testing though, great find guys!!!!

You should see the full report on the player soon.

I guess I'll just stick with the Sony 3100 then. I'm sure it has it's own issues but it's also a 3rd the cost of the 79.

The 79AVi has issues that just simply aren't there with the 59. It just seems to me that the 59AVi is a more groomed player without the issues. Switching the progressive speed to slow does eliminate the issue that I found in earlier testing though, great find guys!!!! You should see the full report on the player soon.Kris -- thanks for the great work; though Pioneer must hate you we all appreciate it!

Is there any advice you could offer a potential consumer, someone who -- let's say -- had been ready to pull the trigger on a DV-79AVi/Algolith Dragonfly combo? In this case Algolith failed to deliver product, and I'm sticking with my DV-59AVi for now. If I really wanted to maximize the value of my large DVD collection, would the Big Black Box (aka; Denon 5910) be a good way to go that might last me three years or so until the format wars settle down?

Thanks for any advice you might offer, and feel free to PM me (if it's more convenient and/or appropriate)...

Kris -- thanks for the great work; though Pioneer must hate you we all appreciate it!

Is there any advice you could offer a potential consumer, someone who -- let's say -- had been ready to pull the trigger on a DV-79AVi/Algolith Dragonfly combo? In this case Algolith failed to deliver product, and I'm sticking with my DV-59AVi for now. If I really wanted to maximize the value of my large DVD collection, would the Big Black Box (aka; Denon 5910) be a good way to go that might last me three years or so until the format wars settle down?

Thanks for any advice you might offer, and feel free to PM me (if it's more convenient and/or appropriate)...

My $.02

Since your 59avi already does 480i over HDMI then just get a good solid HDMI scaler (Gennum, like in the new Anthem D2; DVDO, Lumagen I think, etc.) and you're there.

Maybe I missed your point, though.

Ted...

My $01.5

I was speaking with a panny broadcast tech who has seen the dragonfly in action.... His words... There is nothing on the market like it... Makes everything look amazing. Makes DVD look like HD, cleans up SD to beyond DVD, it even makes VHS look great. It was the only product he would recommend in the scaler/video enhancer category...

Net:Net - don't waste your money on the Denon monster receiver...

If you have money burning a hole in your pocket... Get a 7.1 parasound or rotel seperates system... and send me the leftovers...

BG

In truth, the only thing that comes close (pre HD-DVD) is the Denon 5910 DVD because of realta.. although it is still missing lots of the PQ scrubbing technology that is built into the Dragonfly....

I think everyone here knows how I feel about the 5910. Still the best DVD player I've tested and I can't see anything outdoing it in the video department anytime soon. As far as DVD playback I think it is probably one of the safest long term investments out there unless you need a resolution that it doesn't support. In that case a standalone processor and digital transport would probably be the key.

While it sounds like the 79avi has some minor problems with "torture scenses on dvd", it amazes me that you could buy a 79avi AND a 74TXvi for about $1900 (internet). Sure, my argument is strictly devoted to price, but a 5910 goes for $3k (internet)? You may say that overall including audio and qualify parts, etc, that a 5910 is worth the extra rougly $1100, but is that true when you can buy the 79 AND the 74TXvi?

The fact that I can say "on chapter 19 of Gladiator, look there are no jaggies." While that's true, the picture that the 79 produces/passes along in 480i amazing. Even 720p and 1080i is truly spectacular at times, except that rooftop scene of Gladitor. :)

I certainly don't own a 5910, but I'd be VERY surprised (with non-torture scenes) that one would pick the 5910 for picture quality alone 100 out of 100. Not even close. Oh yeah, can the 5910 pass a 480i signal? Sorry couldn't resist.

Let's face it, both of these DVD players are nice, and the overall edge of course goes to the Denon, but I'll run the 79avi to a 74TXvi for a fraction of the cost of what a Denon 5910 is for a DVD player only. I'll take a "free" almost-flagship receiver in lieu of "rooftop scenes", which is, again, moot if you run 480i.

I would however, if money is no object, opt for a Denon 5910 with SDI mod, Bryston amps, and a Lexicon. :)

.02

Of course, when I speak of 480i I'm inferring 480i over HDMI.

I guess the next logical question might be, can Pioneer address any of the differences between the 79AVi and the 59AVi with a firmware upgrade? ;)

I just got finished with my round of tests on the 79AVi and I must say that I will probably have to stand by my original comments on it vs the 59AVi. The 79AVi has issues that just simply aren't there with the 59. This includes some mild CUE issues, failures with bad edits, and Y/C delay. It just seems to me that the 59AVi is a more groomed player without the issues.

Kris, I am planning on using the 59AVi or 79AVi with a Vidikron VDP-80 external scaler via HDMI at 480i. I appreciate the potentially better audio quality the 79AVi has over the 50AVi, but I don't want to hurt video quality either.

In the beginning, you stated the problems you identified were not evident using HDMI at 480i. Now that you have finished your testing, is the statement still accurate? Also, given my intended usage with an external scaler via HDMI at 480i, which model (59AVi or 79AVi) would you recommend I purchase?

Thanks so much for your opinion.

Mark

Ted...

My $01.5

I was speaking with a panny broadcast tech who has seen the dragonfly in action.... His words... There is nothing on the market like it... Makes everything look amazing. Makes DVD look like HD, cleans up SD to beyond DVD, it even makes VHS look great. It was the only product he would recommend in the scaler/video enhancer category...

Net:Net - don't waste your money on the Denon monster receiver...

If you have money burning a hole in your pocket... Get a 7.1 parasound or rotel seperates system... and send me the leftovers...

BG

In truth, the only thing that comes close (pre HD-DVD) is the Denon 5910 DVD because of realta.. although it is still missing lots of the PQ scrubbing technology that is built into the Dragonfly....


?? Denon monster receiver? He was looking at a 79 avi DVD/scaler combo; he was asking about what to do with his money since he thinks Algolith failed to deliver product. I was reminding him he already had a great 480i DVD transport. Saying the Algolith is great is a moot point with him; I think it's good, too. Not sure of your point. Me, I'm not in the market for a video processor short-term. Longer-term, the D2 sounds interesting because of its audio pedigree, albeit a bit more $$ money than first envisioned. My whacky ideas about the Denon receivers have nothing to do with this thread.

Of course, when I speak of 480i I'm inferring 480i over HDMI.

Yep it won't put out 480i via HDMI, but then, what is the point? If you already have pretty much the best de-interlacing solution on the market, why output 480i? If you want a custom resolution you just output 480P so that the video processor doesn't do the de-interlacing and then have the processor do the scaling. I could do this right now with my VP30 since they both have the same scaling but the VP30 will do custom resolutions.

The point of having 480i via HDMI is to improve upon your de-interlacing with a different source. I don't have to do that.

But the 5910 doesn't have anything to do with the 79AVi so lets try to keep this on track.

Even at 480i the 79AVi has some issues that will be addressed in the benchmark. Sorry I can't say too much now, the nature of the beast.

Kris, I am planning on using the 59AVi or 79AVi with a Vidikron VDP-80 external scaler via HDMI at 480i. I appreciate the potentially better audio quality the 79AVi has over the 50AVi, but I don't want to hurt video quality either.

In the beginning, you stated the problems you identified were not evident using HDMI at 480i. Now that you have finished your testing, is the statement still accurate? Also, given my intended usage with an external scaler via HDMI at 480i, which model (59AVi or 79AVi) would you recommend I purchase?

Thanks so much for your opinion.

Mark

I am confused again. I tested the rooftop scene of Gladiator in all resolutions, all cinema modes and playing with basically all the other settings too. All the artifacts reported here in this board are there even with the player at 480I over HDMI. The only thing that reduces the problem dramatically is the progress motion in the lowest position, as reported before, but 480I looks even worse than 1080I with my gear, 79 DVD to a Mitsubishi 72927 via HDMI and I-Link to a 74 receiver. The "crazy" right lower corner rooftop is there at 480I and 1080I unless the progress speed is all the way to "low".

I have now watched more than 20 movies with the 79 and all I can say is that the player is fantastic. Picture looks close to HD and I can see no artifacts that can bother me. I can see no reason whatsoever for anyone not buying this player because of this issue. This is my non-professional opinion, obviously.

Sergio

I wasn't comparing them in that sense, the poster asked if a player could be shown that could pass those tests, I said there is. No worries. I understand the substantial price difference.

I just got finished with my round of tests on the 79AVi and I must say that I will probably have to stand by my original comments on it vs the 59AVi. The 79AVi has issues that just simply aren't there with the 59. This includes some mild CUE issues, failures with bad edits, and Y/C delay. It just seems to me that the 59AVi is a more groomed player without the issues. Switching the progressive speed to slow does eliminate the issue that I found in earlier testing though, great find guys!!!!

You should see the full report on the player soon.

Kris - I saw that setting the progressive motion setting to slow induces a fine combing on horizontally scrolling text in the HQV benchmark. Have you checked that out? I'm curious if it has any other detrimental effects as well, but I know we'll have to wait for the benchmark. Just thought I would bring this to your attention.

I am confused again. I tested the rooftop scene of Gladiator in all resolutions, all cinema modes and playing with basically all the other settings too. All the artifacts reported here in this board are there even with the player at 480I over HDMI. The only thing that reduces the problem dramatically is the progress motion in the lowest position, as reported before, but 480I looks even worse than 1080I with my gear, 79 DVD to a Mitsubishi 72927 via HDMI and I-Link to a 74 receiver. The "crazy" right lower corner rooftop is there at 480I and 1080I unless the progress speed is all the way to "low".
That just means that your display, which is doing the deinterlacing/scaling when you output 480i, also has problems with that scene.

I would assume that the progressive motion setting is inactive for 480i HDMI?

Which brings up another question. If you set the player to 1080i shouldn't the "progressive" setting be inactive as well as, in my case, my plasma is deinterlacing to 768P?

Kris - I saw that setting the progressive motion setting to slow induces a fine combing on horizontally scrolling text in the HQV benchmark. Have you checked that out? I'm curious if it has any other detrimental effects as well, but I know we'll have to wait for the benchmark. Just thought I would bring this to your attention.

This player can not stay in film mode with vertically panning material. This is extremelly evident with the AVIA Pro cadence tests. As soon as it starts moving vertically, the entire resolution wedge is done. If I switch to 480i and try the same scene via the VP-30, it is perfect. Same goes with my Denon 5910.

I would assume that the progressive motion setting is inactive for 480i HDMI?

Which brings up another question. If you set the player to 1080i shouldn't the "progressive" setting be inactive as well as, in my case, my plasma is deinterlacing to 768P? 480i is deinterlaced to 480p before converted to 1080i. If you feed 480i to your plasma it will deinterlace to 480p then scale to 1280x768 or 1024x768 depending on your plasma. (this is why 768p is sorta meaningless when talking about digital displays).

larry

Thanks Larry for the info, makes sense to me. Definitely makes sense that the Progressive Motion setting will definitely be engaged in 1080i mode in the 79.

Thanks also to all contributors to this thread, Kris, and the person who mentioned the Progressive Motion setting. You guys surely contribute to my HT addiction. Great stuff.

Again, for those who indeed have the 20lb beast of a 79, enjoy....I'm enjoying it with audio just as much as video believe it or not. Big believer in iLink.

Scott

480i is deinterlaced to 480p before converted to 1080i. If you feed 480i to your plasma it will deinterlace to 480p then scale to 1280x768 or 1024x768 depending on your plasma. (this is why 768p is sorta meaningless when talking about digital displays).

larry

Ok, I'm not the brightest guy in the world so, why would a player deinterlace 480i to 480p then scale to 1080 and then reinterlace to output 1080i? Are you sure this is what is done. Seems like it should just scale to 1080i. Is deinterlacing always the first thing a player does, regardless of what the output setting is? This seems like an unrequired step that just adds another chance to screw up the image.

By the way, I am now a 59AVi owner.....

Ok, I'm not the brightest guy in the world so, why would a player deinterlace 480i to 480p then scale to 1080 and then reinterlace to output 1080i? Are you sure this is what is done. Seems like it should just scale to 1080i. Is deinterlacing always the first thing a player does, regardless of what the output setting is? This seems like an unrequired step that just adds another chance to screw up the image.

By the way, I am now a 59AVi owner..... The 480i and 1080i fields are only "half" the data for the full frame. Scalers need to sample groups of pixels in the full frame in order to do the best job. It would be extremely difficult to scale a field when you only have every other "line" of frame information. So 480i is deinterlaced (harder than scaling) and the 480p full frame is scaled to 1920x1080 or 1920x540 and then somehow output as 1080i. I'm not exactly sure what the intermediate resolution is before being split into 2 fields.

larry

Larry is correct. The signal must be deinterlaced from 480i to 480p before any scaling is possible.

The 480i and 1080i fields are only "half" the data for the full frame. Scalers need to sample groups of pixels in the full frame in order to do the best job. It would be extremely difficult to scale a field when you only have every other "line" of frame information. So 480i is deinterlaced (harder than scaling) and the 480p full frame is scaled to 1920x1080 or 1920x540 and then somehow output as 1080i. I'm not exactly sure what the intermediate resolution is before being split into 2 fields.

larry

Thanks Larry.

One last question please. Where does MB occur? During deinterlacing or scaling. The reason I am asking is because the Denon 1920 is supposed to have a MB issue but, I have never seen it with my Sony SXRD. I was assuming this was because I have been outputing 1080i to my TV and that the TV was doing the only deinterlacing done, and that the player was only scaling it. Now as you have said the player has to deinterlace before it scales, so now what I am watching has to be deinterlaced twice (SXRD is a 1080p set without 1080p inputs). I was thinking that I didn't have the MB issuses because my TV might be doing a better job at deinterlacing than my dvd player. Now I know it wouldn't matter because the player deinterlaces before anything else..
I will be selling the Denon because I just bought a 59AVi, and I realize this is a 79AVi thread but, a lot of you guys on here have such good knowledge of how these players work that I wanted to ask these questions here..

Thanks for your patience and replies... Anyone else with comments please chime in

Jim

Thanks Larry.

One last question please. Where does MB occur? During deinterlacing or scaling. The reason I am asking is because the Denon 1920 is supposed to have a MB issue but, I have never seen it with my Sony SXRD. I was assuming this was because I have been outputing 1080i to my TV and that the TV was doing the only deinterlacing done, and that the player was only scaling it. Now as you have said the player has to deinterlace before it scales, so now what I am watching has to be deinterlaced twice (SXRD is a 1080p set without 1080p inputs). I was thinking that I didn't have the MB issuses because my TV might be doing a better job at deinterlacing than my dvd player. Now I know it wouldn't matter because the player deinterlaces before anything else..
I will be selling the Denon because I just bought a 59AVi, and I realize this is a 79AVi thread but, a lot of you guys on here have such good knowledge of how these players work that I wanted to ask these questions here..

Thanks for your patience and replies... Anyone else with comments please chime in

Jim

MB occurs during deinterlacing. And, if you're sending 1080i to your Sony, your Denon already deinterlaced 480i->480p, then scaled up to 1080i. Your making your Sony do double work. I'd recommend 480p or 720p out of the player. And, if you don't see any MB, don't sweat it, just enjoy the movie ;)

MB is very display dependent. I have not heard of it being a problem with the SXRDs. It is much more prevalent with plasmas.

MB occurs during deinterlacing. And, if you're sending 1080i to your Sony, your Denon already deinterlaced 480i->480p, then scaled up to 1080i. Your making your Sony do double work. I'd recommend 480p or 720p out of the player. And, if you don't see any MB, don't sweat it, just enjoy the movie ;)

Well then, maybe I should have just bought a screaming good progressive scan player. I just thought a high end player would have a better deinterlacer and scaler than my tv.

It never ends does it......... :confused:
I, like most on here, am always looking for a better mousetrap... Too bad I have to stop spending money on this stuff.... or do I? :rolleyes:

One of these days if I get some free time I want to capture a lot of this stuff that comes up which is applicable to all DVD players and put it in the FAQ I started at the top of the forum. There's excellent tid bits that pop up from time to time from people who do this stuff for a living. Most of the good stuff is buried where you'd never think to look. :)

Also, jimed, equipment lists in sigs are discouraged here. There's a place in your profile for your list of equipment. If one of the "super mods" sees a gear list in a sig it will likely be deleted.

larry

Okay I finally had some time to watch some material on the 79avi at length this weekend.

I watched the latest Star Wars movie, Pirates of the Carib, and some Star Trek Voyager series episodes.

First of all, let me say this, the MB is night and day on this vs my denon 2910, esp the series theme credits/opening section. The graphics where the ship flies through a suns flares is a great test and its the best I have seen, the sharp visible black layers' separation was way way DOWN
Also the jaggies on the ship as it moved through space and on screen were all but gone except in one place.

The sensor dish, which always has this blue glow, got the crawlies or some odd pattern really bad, worse than my denon 2910 by quite alot. I also noticed a bit of drag on some motion here and there on the complicated graphics of the ship in space the denon 2910 does not have.

I am getting the impression the deinterlacer or scaler is not as good as the faourjda solution quite on that last with the ship.

It is also missing a bit of the crispness the 2910 had, but I am thinking for video material playing with the settings can fix that.


Otherwise I have to tell you folks, the Voyager Star Trek series discs have a NIGHT and day difference. I always knew the mb on my 3rd gen Pioneer 503 was bad but I must admit I really do see a huge difference here. Part of it may be the dvd player is 10 bit, but I don't remember what bit the 503 is.

But on the first thing I list, with the crawlies on the blue sensor dish, is this an example of the flaw Kris Deering found?

Makes me wonder if the 59avi might be a better player..?

But on the first thing I list, with the crawlies on the blue sensor dish, is this an example of the flaw Kris Deering found? No. I don't recall anybody seeing the flaw except on test patterns.

larry

No. I don't recall anybody seeing the flaw except on test patterns.

larry

I didn't want to comment earlier but now that I've sold my 79avi I don't have a reason to fear not getting good resale value out of it. I concur with Kris's observations about YC delay. I actually saw this a week or so ago when I decided to keep the sp1000 as my main player. It is pretty strange though as the left side of AVIA YC delay pattern does not indicate any real timing problem. In fact mine seemed pretty spot on BUT..... on the right side of the pattern the vertical bars show a clear problem that looks like two slight lines(looks like EE but redish) going down the right side of the bar in the yellow section. Adjusting the Chroma delay in the settings moves it left to right etc but it does not go away. This, along with the fact that I also see a loss of resolution compared to the sp1000 in the Avia moving grid patterns was the deal breaker for me.

I am hopeful that at least the YC delay issue could be corrected via software and not so sure about the deinterlacing issue but I am definitely not patient enough to wait for a fix. Too bad because it is a nice player still.

My guess is unless Pioneer hears a lot of complaints from people watching real world material , they will do nothing to fix something that is not visible with regular movies. I don't think we can use test patterns to convince them and even with scenes like the Gladiator rooftop they can say that 99% of the players also have the same problem.

Thousands of posters complain about MB on several new players because this is visible on regular movies but existing players with the Faroudja chip will not be fixed, or will they?

The truth is that the 79 is a great player for 99% of the buyers and for the same money it's hard to find anything with sound and picture any better.

I do appeciate what Kris and others have been doing and the excellent discussion about so many technical issues but since I am a simple consumer I will just enjoy the best DVD picture I have ever had in my home.

Sergio

My guess is unless Pioneer hears a lot of complaints from people watching real world material , they will do nothing to fix something that is not visible with regular movies. I don't think we can use test patterns to convince them and even with scenes like the Gladiator rooftop they can say that 99% of the players also have the same problem.

Thousands of posters complain about MB on several new players because this is visible on regular movies but existing players with the Faroudja chip will not be fixed, or will they?

The truth is that the 79 is a great player for 99% of the buyers and for the same money it's hard to find anything with sound and picture any better.

I do appeciate what Kris and others have been doing and the excellent discussion about so many technical issues but since I am a simple consumer I will just enjoy the best DVD picture I have ever had in my home.

Sergio

Sergio,

I agree 100%. I am in the same mindset as you, I am enjoying my 79avi very much both video and audio. I am not worried as some as to the issues with 79avi, it has not affected my regular viewing of DVDs. But I also respect that some will not want the 79avi for the issues that have been found. I guess its all a matter of preference.

Bill

i also agree with slimoli, for 1000 the 79 is the best player arround, and its also the opinion of the best magazines of home theatre like what hifi or what video and tv.we canot compare a bmw to a ferrari and they both are a very good cars.i have seen the 5910 in action and of corse is best then the 79 but the cost of the 5910 ill buy 5 dv 79.i prefer the bmw!
after i see more movies i have concluded that kris was right, the component 12 bit is the best choice, has a more detailed picture,thanks kris.
one thing in some movies i see "ghost effects" in some objects and peoples faces, do you also see this?

one thing in some movies i see "ghost effects" in some objects and peoples faces, do you also see this?

Pretty sure that will be due to the Y/C delay that Kris and others have mentioned. Visibility will vary depending on what two colors are meeting at that edge.

Maybe a display issue with his PTAE900. The current Panasonic CRTs are having a ghosting problem too.

YC delay problems show up best on multi-color text (eg: AVAI menus).

I can see ghosts if I mess with "detail" and "HDMI Detail" on video adjustment and initial settings. Try to leave "detail" at 0 and HDMI detail at the middle.

Sergio

Pretty sure that will be due to the Y/C delay that Kris and others have mentioned. Visibility will vary depending on what two colors are meeting at that edge. Y/C delay would have to be really bad if you can see during normal viewing, especially with non-static images.

larry

I can see ghosts if I mess with "detail" and "HDMI Detail" on video adjustment and initial settings. Try to leave "detail" at 0 and HDMI detail at the middle.

Sergio

I think that's ringing, or edge enhancement. It's essentially excessive sharpness.

Ok.. so I did it. Based on all the back and forth on the 79avi... my Panny S97 is days away from being replaced by a 59avi (etronics... $xxx)

Anyone want to sway me on returning it and upgrading to the 79...

Any thoughts and comments would be greatly appreciated.

BG

Ok.. so I did it. Based on all the back and forth on the 79avi... my Panny S97 is days away from being replaced by a 59avi (etronics... $xxx)

Anyone want to sway me on returning it and upgrading to the 79...

Any thoughts and comments would be greatly appreciated.

BG

I had a 59avi which I bought at Magnolia for $50.00 more than you paid. I returned the 59avi to Magnolia for the 79avi (for a $100.00 more). I felt for $100.00 more I would have Pioneers latest player. I can honestly say that the picture quality between the two are very close ( if not the same) with maybe a slight edge to the 79avi in audio.

If the 59avi you bought is new than at $xxx.00 you got a good deal. Unless you have to have the newest Pioneer out as I did, I would stick with the 59avi. Which ever way you go the 59/79avi are great players. As to some of the issues mentioned in this thread on the 79avi I have not noticed any problems in real world viewing of any DVDs so far.

Bill

I talked with Pioneer Engineering at CES and they indicated that there is no Firmware update capability for the 79AVi.

I find this strange, but he was quite clear on this.

I talked with Pioneer Engineering at CES and they indicated that there is no Firmware update capability for the 79AVi.

I find this strange, but he was quite clear on this.
More than likely he meant no end-user firmware update capability. Which would be the same as the 59 (correct me if I'm wrong). It isn't possible to update the firmware by burning it to a CD-R, but a factory service technician can load an update with special tools provided by Pioneer.

More than likely he meant no end-user firmware update capability. Which would be the same as the 59 (correct me if I'm wrong). It isn't possible to update the firmware by burning it to a CD-R, but a factory service technician can load an update with special tools provided by Pioneer. The 59avi's had different firmware versions. Worst case I'd hope it would be replacing a eprom or something.

larry

sigh

I bought one...I will henceforth relate to Kris as I do my wife. I will have to live with the "I told you so's".

Anyway, over teh 59avi I like the 480i over HDMI, 10 bit color adjustments over HDMI, and some reports of less CUE (maybe elimination of 4:2:0 ICP)...If this bothers me too much with all the Pixar titles I may have to return it (moot point since 59avi has same or worse CUE problems). To me the only other non-MB options that are viable are Marantz 9600 or Denon 5910...and I would rather plunk down money on a HD-movie solution.

Wish me luck...

thats the thing, you want a better player..... x 3 and there it is.... denon 5910. for this price range, the 79 is the top player. it may be on par with the 59 but all in all, these 2 players are still among the very best and even beyond this price point. i have the 79, wondering if i should sell and get a 59. you know what, each player will always have their limitations..... if you want a better player, then its the 5910. cheers!!!!!!!!!

thats the thing, you want a better player..... x 3 and there it is.... denon 5910. for this price range, the 79 is the top player... if you want a better player, then its the 5910.I've been going through this list myself. Already own the 59AVi, was looking to buy a 79AVi + Algolith Dragonfly -- then Algolith couldn't deliver and now the reports on the 79AVi.

At the same time I'm feeling increasingly cautious about the BluRay vs. HD-DVD debacle. Initially I was rooting for BR based on the specs. After reading this month's WSR I am hoping that HD-DVD wins. I am beginning to doubt that Sony will allow a viable "copy for personal use" function, which HD-DVD seems committed to.

SO -- sorry to make a short story painfully long -- at this point I'm going to sit out the format war, and am seriously considering a Denon 5910 to maximize the value of my existing (and large) collection of DVDs. This would last me a good two years -- which is probably how long it will take for the format wars to subside and for a viable catalog of HD-disc titles to become established.

Actually if I didn't care about MB than I would take a 3910 over this player. If I did care about MB I would take the Marantz 9500 or the Lexicon RT-20 over this player. I would choose the 59 over the 79 as well. I will test the 9600 soon to see how it stacks up. Of course this is all just MHO.

Kris... you have been doing a great job of fighting the good fight for the 59 vs. the 79. Can you please share one more, direct to the point, answer about this perspective.

It would be great to hear your answer in terms of "General Use Setup" (aka the family home theater/media room) and the "Videophile setup" (aka undergound bunker with it's own nuclear power supply, twin converged runco HD projectors, 200" screen, 10,000 watts of Parasound Amps, and an old fashion popcorn machine).

Thanks for the momories.

BG
------------------

Actually if I didn't care about MB than I would take a 3910 over this player. If I did care about MB I would take the Marantz 9500 or the Lexicon RT-20 over this player. I would choose the 59 over the 79 as well. I will test the 9600 soon to see how it stacks up. Of course this is all just MHO.

Don't understand the question. If you are talking about just a DVD player for the average viewer that doesn't perceive differences than I can save you a ton of money and just recommend a player you can pick up at Wal-Mart?? If you are talking about the 59 vs the 79, than the average user probably wouldn't pick up on the differences much. They would probably set the up wrong anyways or have issues with their display that are worse than the issues with the player. It is all about context and reference.

"They would probably set the up wrong anyways or have issues with their display that are worse than the issues with the player. It is all about context and reference. "

Kris, what is so mysterious about setting up a DVD player to support your opinion that we would probably set them up wrong? Most people here are not professionals but I think we have discussed all possible settings with the 79AVI and basically we agree on most of them. Granted we don't have all the tools and facilities for a complete calibration but anybody here can use an Avia disk or simply follow several posts about how to configure the 79.

Clearly you didn't like the 79 and I understand your reasons but sometimes I feel like we shouldn't like it as well and if we do is because "we don't know how to set it up". There is a huge difference on the weight of the importance of the bugs found on the 79 and those found on players with MB, for example. MB is visible on almost all DVDs and even "normal people" like us can see it. So far we didn't have a single report from thousands of viewers in this board of any visible glitch caused by the 79 that can't be corrected easily changing some settings.

Just MHO.

Sergio

I don't think Kris was referring to any of us geeks on this thread here. We are not the average Joe's. Avia discs, are you kidding me? Most people would assume you are talking about some beauty parlor products. Us here, we know that Guy Kuo authored them for God's sake. MB? Ha, most folks think that stands for Michael Bolton.

No, Sergio, he was not saying you don't know how to set up a DVD player. He was saying that about my neighbor, or your brother-in-law, or whomever. They assume all the included cables are all they need, wonder why they get no DVD-Audio out of the optical cable and wonder why all the people are stretched so tall. For them, and for the folks on these forums that are not paying attention, either 59 or 79 is just fine, thank you. They have nice warranties, good looks and solid build.

I think, too, that if your desired set-up was to include I-LINK in your system design, then the 79 makes sense over it's competitors. I find the pairing of the 74txvi receiver and the 79 via I-LINK to be well worth the investment sonically. I would have to buy Pioneer Elite's flagship to better the audio quality produced by this set-up. Now I just need to upgrade my speakers!

But I completely agree with Kris and others that strive for no-compromise video quality should choose a different player. The 79, while a great video spinner, does have issues that do not exist on cost-no-object designs, and even on some that are not.

As with all things A/V your ancillary equipment and preferences will determine the outcome of the system's overall performance; not to mention how we set it up. For me, the I-LINK set-up provides great bang-for-the-buck. Until an HD format becomes standard these components will suffice, and I can't see how anyone could fault it's overall value.

Z

For me it (the 79) may be a good compromise.

I tried a Panny S77 and spotted the MB right away.
The alternatives with HDMI and hi-rez?
Denon: ....though will I still see MB?
Plus, putting MB aside for a moment, I'd want the 3910 over the 2910 for audio quality and now we are talking a big price dif, especially here in Canada where Denon is way overpriced compared to the US.
Marantz: didn't like the 7600 in comparison to the 79 and, in Canada, the 9500 costs even more than the 3910.

MRSP's in Canada: (It's OK to talk MRSP, right? If not, sorry...I'll edit)

79: $1299 to $1499 depending on who you talk you
3910: $1980
9500/9600: $2700!!
SP1000: $3400

"They would probably set the up wrong anyways or have issues with their display that are worse than the issues with the player. It is all about context and reference. "

Kris, what is so mysterious about setting up a DVD player to support your opinion that we would probably set them up wrong? Most people here are not professionals but I think we have discussed all possible settings with the 79AVI and basically we agree on most of them. Granted we don't have all the tools and facilities for a complete calibration but anybody here can use an Avia disk or simply follow several posts about how to configure the 79.

Clearly you didn't like the 79 and I understand your reasons but sometimes I feel like we shouldn't like it as well and if we do is because "we don't know how to set it up". There is a huge difference on the weight of the importance of the bugs found on the 79 and those found on players with MB, for example. MB is visible on almost all DVDs and even "normal people" like us can see it. So far we didn't have a single report from thousands of viewers in this board of any visible glitch caused by the 79 that can't be corrected easily changing some settings.

Just MHO.

Sergio

I'm with you, Sergio. Chum in the water for the "videophile" feeding frenzy is all this is, although I certainly appreciate the anal-retentive nature of some of these tests. Appreciation aside, it's worth revisiting this thread for the sheer panic the results have induced in some.

From one "average Joe" to others who may be lurking here... I'm a satisfied 79 owner who has experienced nothing but excellent video (at all resolutions) and audio with this player. I love it. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to check my Crutchfield Installation Advisor folder to ensure I have everything set up correctly. :D

-bd

Hi,

I still don't see the problem with the 79 if you buy it for HDMI 480i to a scaler? It seems that the issues discussed here really dont apply to 480i so if you are a true videophile, you will want a scaler anyway.


brt3, I think you would be better off buying the 79 and a Vantage HD or Algolith so that you get HQV for all inputs not just the dvd collection! (HD still needs the NR and Deint help of the HQV, so why pay so much for the 5910?)

God bless...

Mark

I still don't see the problem with the 79 if you buy it for HDMI 480i to a scaler? ...I think you would be better off buying the 79 and a Vantage HD or Algolith so that you get HQV for all inputs not just the dvd collection!I honestly just gave up on Algolith; I was one of the first people on the Dragonfly list, but I got extremely sick and tired of the delays. The delays, though, weren't as bad as the total lack of communication from Algolith. I eventually figured this treatment was likely to carry over to Algolith's customer service after the sale. I completely agree that -- intellectually speaking -- it's way better to have one device that can scale all sources. Let's just say I'm carefully looking for a deal/steal on the 5910... ;)

That being said, I'm pretty sure the 79AVi will be a very good player for a lot of people -- good luck to everyone on this thread who owns one, and I hope Pioneer is responsive to the issue that Kris found...

My comments weren't geared toward anyone here. I was talking about the average consumer who knows nothing about this stuff. The question was asked about it vs the 59AVi and I was trying to explain that the question needed a context or reference. Who am I recommending it to. Because if the average Joe compared the two, again there would be more issues with other stuff than the stuff I found. For those here that know the differences and how to setup properly, I would suggest what I suggested.

The 79AVi is a fine player and I have nothing against it. You merely asked for my opinion and suggestions and I gave them. Most people here would be MORE than satisfied with it; but if you don't want my honest opinions on stuff, don't ask.

Kris, thanks for answering the question

There are more than enough guys on the planet who avoid answering direct questions. Shooting the messenger has always been a losing trade.

Hi Kris,

One strange thing in your recomendations is that I believe all the other machines you reccomend over the 79 are based on the same Pioneer dvd platform. As such, is there really that much advantage in the rt-10, or 9600 over the 79 for video? (I know audio is much better in the other 2)

God bless..

Mark

Kris,

I think there may have been a misinterpretation of my earlier e-mail that started the back and forth...

While a dedicated home theater is my goal... Today, My 50" plasma based theater is the main viewing room for the family. My Rig has to service my kids 4:3 bob the builder videos, my wife's yoga DVD's, and my passion for home theater at the same time.

I have reluctantly cut out certain items (like the V30) becuse while I appreciated the enhancement in PQ, ease of use for the remainder of my family was unacceptable. This is not a knock on the product... It is simply designed for someone who is looking for and willing to make tweaks between sources/programs/etc. (like me)... While My wife's wants it to "just work" (clue: her favorite DVD function is "position memory" for my kids movies).

This was the genesis of the question "General use" vs. "videophile use."

Sounds like a case study "How do a Home Theater Fanatic and the Rest of their Family Survive Side by side."

In hindsight... it was likely not a fare question to begin with... I was just looking for some real-world use vs. videophile use of those two players (59 and 79) and your view from these two filters.

Brian...

Ah, now I got you Brian. If you do the initial setup than it should be pretty much plug and play for the rest of the family. No weird menus or anything. So user friendly wise they are fine.

As such, is there really that much advantage in the rt-10, or 9600 over the 79 for video? (I know audio is much better in the other 2)

Yes, they are based on the 59AVi's video processing that doesn't have the issues with the video processing that I reported. They also don't have a lot of the core video issues I found with the 79AVi.

I have the both of these for the next 3-4 days, any ideas for specific tests from anyone on here with all that has been said about these 2 players?

I intend to compare them both and keep one, I have had the 79avi for a bit, just picked up the 59avi on closeout today.

Hi Kris,

Thanks for the reply. As far as I can see the issues with the 79avi are not present in the 480i over HDMI ouput right? I can see for the broader market the suggestion to avoid it makes sense, but for my needs to feed an hqv based scaler (when they come out) via hdmi, the 79avi should do a great job, or am I missing something?

I thought the Marantz 9500 is 59avi based and the 9600 is 79avi based, or is this wrong?


Thanks

God bless...

Mark

htguy1, it has been stated several times that the deinterlacing flaws of the 79ai are not present with 480i output. Of course, there may be other issues with the player (I guess the Secret's review will be available in the next week or two).

Hi Billp

That was the only problem I had noticed and yet it seems to me that it should lead to a reccomendation from people on this board that, if you use a scaler to deinterlace etc the 79 is a great machine for the price, but otherwise avoid it. Yet Kris and others seem to say avoid a no matter what, so I just wanted to make sure I did not miss anything.

I can't wait to see the secrets review of it.
God bless...

Mark

Actually if I didn't care about MB than I would take a 3910 over this player. If I did care about MB I would take the Marantz 9500 or the Lexicon RT-20 over this player. I would choose the 59 over the 79 as well. I will test the 9600 soon to see how it stacks up. Of course this is all just MHO.

Chris ,

Are you referring to the Marantz DV9600 when you say "9600" ?

Will you get the new one "Powered by ABT" as seen here...?

http://www.dvdo.com/tech/press-090805.php

I would like to see if this combo will be the next best thing since sliced bread :p

Scott.................. :)

The Marantz 9600 has ABT processing, yes...you mentioned "did you get the new one powered by ABT". They (9600's) are all powered by ABT. Looks like a winner to me. I have a PM (another forum) into someone who has one and has had a number of the players we talk about (3910, 59avi, 45a ,etc,) I'll post once I get his "review" feedback.

Only the DV9600 is "powered by ABT". DVDO has only included their scaling technology in 2 DVD players, the 5910 and now the 9600.

Yes, the 9600 I am referring to is the Marantz.

The benchmark results for the 79 should be up in the next week. I am going on a business trip tomorrow and won't be around to check the boards for awhile so I'll let you guys have at it for awhile. I will be back on with consistency in mid-February (love the Navy schedules!!).

So if I don't respond to questions here don't take it personally!

OK...since I am planning on nice scaler some day (VP30 would be nice), I find that I can pay a little in a 79avi now (better build than 59avi, sound better, 10 bit digital video, HDMI 1.1) for 99% pure DVD picture (I bet it is even higher than that considering it took a long time for people to know about the flaw).

Any other DVD solution (9500, 9600, 5910, etc.) would be sweet at 2X-3X cost of 79avi, but I like the idea of a little money now and more later for a scaler/HDMI switch. If I go 5910 et. al, I would feel compelled to skip the scaler due to price...and that would be just wrong.

But if you bought the 5910, you wouldn't need a scaler.

But if you bought the 5910, you wouldn't need a scaler.
for DVD's

for everything else he would.

But if you bought the 5910, you wouldn't need a scaler.

As long as his display matches one of the 5910's standard output resolutions, that is (i.e. 720p, 1080i etc).

Hi,

Yeah, and really who wants noise reduction on HD material anyways? I mean none of it gets tortured by a mpeg decoder or anything!

God bless...

Mark

Going through and rewatching more movies. The chase sequence following the assassination attempt on Senator Amadala in Attack of the Clones really makes the 79avi - Iscan HD+ combination shine. That's an excellent demo scene!

While I've used other DVD players with the Iscan, most notably the Zenith DVB318 and NeuNeo HVD108, this is the first DVD solution I've used that has me going "I get it now." For the first time I'm seeing the clarity that creates a 3D effect that I've read people refer to. That and the way color is rendered is more vivid, yet more accurate than I've seen before.

It's hard to describe... the difference over the equipment I've used before is staggering. I'm unfortunately still having to keep the DVB318 in the system in order to view PAL and non-region-1 DVDs. Whenever I switch to the DVB318 I end up sighing in disgust...

Granted, we're talking about making a jump from $200 to $900 DVD players, so one would expect to gain some improvement, but then throw in the build quality and audio stage improvements, and despite the jump in cost, this player seems a bargain...

I'm unfortunately still having to keep the DVB318 in the system in order to view PAL and non-region-1 DVDs. Whenever I switch to the DVB318 I end up sighing in disgust...

Granted, we're talking about making a jump from $200 to $900 DVD players, so one would expect to gain some improvement, but then throw in the build quality and audio stage improvements, and despite the jump in cost, this player seems a bargain...

heavyharmonies, the shop who sold you the 79Avi should be able to multi-region it for you. In case of difficulty these are the details. I've PMed you with the relevant URLs from the www.Avforums.com site.

DV-989AVi/79AVi
Remote: Unknown (P1)
Author: ekkostar
Get CCF file for 989AVi by downloading from www.remotecentral.com
Upload this CCF into your remote device and perform these steps to upgrade your your player into a multi-region one.

1. Switch player on.
2. Make sure tray is empty and closed and no disc inside.
3. Point remote and push button "0" once.
4. The player will then go into standby.
5. Leave it for about 45 secs and switch player back on.
6. 989/79 is now multi-region compatible.

Me too. I am just afraid I won't be able to find a 59 if I wait to much longer..

Many of the 59's out there - you should be able to pick up a great used one for some time.

Many of the 59's out there - you should be able to pick up a great used one for some time.

I found a mint condition used one. It is 6 months old but, has a Jan. 05 build date. Paid $600 and I love it. Very happy.

I would still like to have a 79 and I am hoping that these anomolies with the 79 will be corrected before they go out of production. I will keep monitoring this thread to see what happens. I seem to remember reading that Kris has contacted Pioneer to see what they say about the resolution problems, but now that that has been corrected by changing the settings, I don't know that it is a big deal anymore. It's hard to believe that a companys flagship player could get worse in it's next generation but, that seems to be what has happened. The lower MSRP kind of tells it all. $1000 MSRP for a 79. Weren't the 59's at $1600 MSRP when they were introduced? To me that says something is cheaper somewhere. However, the upgrades in the chassis, and separate power supplies are nice.

Great thread guys. I have been reading both the 59 and 79 threads to get educated. I have narrowed down my choice to one of these two Pioneer players and I expect to make a purchase within the next two months. I am going to disregard the price difference in this decision. I understand the apparent issues with each model and I am willing to live with the flaws that have been identified in these threads. I would like to hear opinions based on experience you guys have had with these players using the analogue audio and component video connections. I have demo'd a 59 (very impressive) but I have not found a 79 locally that I can see/hear hence my reason for asking.

Here is the basis for my questions. I am currently using a Mits 55" RP CRT TV with only component inputs and a Pioneer 1014 receiver with only analogue inputs for SACD/DVDA. Both of these units will be upgraded in the future to models that can utilize the HDMI and i-link connections. The receiver upgrade will be within the year (waiting to see the new Pioneer flagship) and then the TV in a couple of years. I would like to purchase a universal player that will give me the best pq and sq today using these analogue connections but will have the digital connections for the future upgrades. I recently played with a Samsung HD950 for awhile and enjoyed the upscaling to 1080i over component and really liked the SACD/DVDA capability but I gave that unit to my parents for Christmas. Now I'm ready to step up to a higher quality player although I realize neither of these units will upscale via component. I'm not interested in the Hi-Def players yet. I'll watch from the sidelines until I upgrade the other components in my system first.

Most of the posts here have dealt with pq via HDMI. What I take from the discussion is both the 59 and 79 perform well in real world viewing, both have flaws, but the pq appears to be quite similar, maybe indistinguishable. However, does anyone feel there might be a difference between the 59 and 79 using component? Also, some posts have indicated that the 79 has a bit of an edge in sq. Has anyone done any comparisons of sq using analogue cables? I would appreciate your feedback to assist in my decision making. Thanks.

Half Fast, my understanding is that if you use component, both the 59 and 79 have CUE errors (that are not a problem with HDMI output). You might want to consider a different brand, like Denon, Onkyo, Marantz, or Arcam.

Half Fast:

I had a 59 for about a year before upgrading to the 79 and have used only the component connection with i-link. I admit I read a lot more than I post on this forum due to the fact that I am still learning a great deal from excellent threads like this one and I'm still afraid of saying something stupid and having 10 guys jump on it. Anyway, I feel I must comment on my experiences with these two machines. I'm not one to throw in complicated test patterns and analyze how my player is performing and as a result I have never witnessed anything wrong with my 79 even after Kris found that there is a problem with the way it handles some materials. I have only ever played movies that I have rented or bought and I have absolutely loved the picture I am getting from this player. I am so glad that I traded in my 59 for this 79 because I feel there IS a step up in picture quality ( through component).
As for audio I am only using the i-link so I can only comment on that. Again I feel the 79 is better especially when watching movies. Before I got my 59 I was using a cheapy Panasonic player. When I started using my 59 I noticed the surrounds didn't seem to be as active as they were when using even the old Panny. When I finally got rid of the 59 and started using the 79 I immediately noticed the surround effect seemed more enveloping once again. I just feel like the 79 is the player that I was SUPPOSED to get when I invested all that money to upgrade my cheap Panny player with a $1500 ( Canadian ) 59 player. Now I am very happy with my picture and movies are really enveloping once again. There seems to be more bottom end with the 79 as well.

Others may feel differently but for me I don't notice any problems concerning the picture with the 79 and I love the way this unit sounds! I don't regret upgrading from the 59 at all.

Half Fast:

I had a 59 for about a year before upgrading to the 79 and have used only the component connection with i-link. I admit I read a lot more than I post on this forum due to the fact that I am still learning a great deal from excellent threads like this one and I'm still afraid of saying something stupid and having 10 guys jump on it. Anyway, I feel I must comment on my experiences with these two machines. I'm not one to throw in complicated test patterns and analyze how my player is performing and as a result I have never witnessed anything wrong with my 79 even after Kris found that there is a problem with the way it handles some materials. I have only ever played movies that I have rented or bought and I have absolutely loved the picture I am getting from this player. I am so glad that I traded in my 59 for this 79 because I feel there IS a step up in picture quality ( through component).
As for audio I am only using the i-link so I can only comment on that. Again I feel the 79 is better especially when watching movies. Before I got my 59 I was using a cheapy Panasonic player. When I started using my 59 I noticed the surrounds didn't seem to be as active as they were when using even the old Panny. When I finally got rid of the 59 and started using the 79 I immediately noticed the surround effect seemed more enveloping once again. I just feel like the 79 is the player that I was SUPPOSED to get when I invested all that money to upgrade my cheap Panny player with a $1500 ( Canadian ) 59 player. Now I am very happy with my picture and movies are really enveloping once again. There seems to be more bottom end with the 79 as well.

Others may feel differently but for me I don't notice any problems concerning the picture with the 79 and I love the way this unit sounds! I don't regret upgrading from the 59 at all.

Lee, you certainly be bashful about posting. I am definitely am amateur, and I'm sure I've asked my dumb question and made stupid comments--but one does learn something!

Kris's original evaulation of the 59 pointed out that Component was not its best feature. It is the HDMI input for which it gives its best performance.

millerwill:

You are certainly correct about the HDMI input and I wish my TV had that connection alas I bought my set one year before HDMI or DVI became available. Therefore I am stuck with the component connection.
I was responding to Half Fast who wanted to hear opinions based on experience with the component video connection. To my eyes I truly believe the 79 is giving me a better picture than the 59 ever did. I also find it very ironic that the very first movie I played on my 79 was the new 3 disc extended version of Gladiator and I specifically remember thinking to myself, "now that's a better picture!" I guess the picture is supposed to be a little better on that new extended version due to the fact that they dropped the DTS soundtrack and only put the DD on it thus leaving more space on the disc to concentrate on video quality ( I think I read that in some stereo mag.) Anyway, now the big thing is how poorly the 79 performs on that flyover sequence in Gladiator but I didn't notice it when I watched the movie ( I watched it before I read about the flaw in this thread and therefore was not intentionally looking for a problem) nor have I bothered to put it back in to see if it is screwed up in that scene. All I remember is that that was the first movie I put in the 79 and I was more impressed than I ever was with the 59.

Thank you Lee Lang. That is exactly the kind of input I am looking for. Anybody else?

BillP, I have looked at Denon but the 5910 is more than I want to spend and when I compared the 3910 to a Pioneer 59 I liked the Pio better. It wasn't a perfect demo by any means but I came away with that conclusion. I understand that HDMI offers improved performance but I am going to wait a couple years before I get a new TV that has HDMI inputs so I am stuck with component until then. I have been looking locally but haven't found an Onkyo, Marantz or Arcam that I can demo. I will look for these while on business trips the next couple months as potentials but again I believe they are more expensive than the Pioneer units. Since this will most likely be my last standard def DVD player I want a good one but not one that will break the bank. I am limiting this purchase to $1K or less so I can still upgrade to a flagship level receiver within the year.

Thank you Lee Lang. That is exactly the kind of input I am looking for. Anybody else?



Half Fast,

I have also gone from a 59avi to a 79avi. I am also using component as my Panasonic plasma does not have a DVI/HDMI connection. I can buy a DVI module for my plasma but I am happy with component and the plasma is an ED set. I have used DVE disc to do initial calibration as I am not very knowledgable on the advanced settings.

My experience with the 59avi and the 79avi are very similar to Lee Lang although without a side by side comparison can not say how much of an improvement in PQ and SQ there really is. I can definitely say there is no loss in PQ on the 79avi over the 59avi and SQ to me seems somewhat improved. I am connected to a 74txvi via i-link.

As I posted earlier I returned the 79avi for the 59avi at Magnolia (had the 59avi for less than a month). I got the 79avi right after Kris found the problem with the 79avi but took a chance that it would not effect every day viewing as I am not to concerned about issues that only show up on calibration discs. And so far I have not seen any issues that effect normal viewing. I watched the sequence on Gladiator and feel that that scene was much improved by setting the progressive motion to the slowest setting.

I also agree with Lee Lang in that sometimes I will not comment on certain things as my lack of knowledge will clearly be obvisous. But I also strongly feel that till Kris found issues with the 79avi the reviews were very positive then after that opinions seemed to go in the other direction. I was asked before if I would recommend the 79avi over the 59avi, I said yes I would and will continue to recommend it.

Bill

Thank you Bill. I had read your previous posts and noted that you were one of the few people using these players with component connections. My next receiver will definitely have an i-link connection for audio but I am currently restricted to analogue inputs with the Pioneer 1014. I set out to purchase a VSX59txi or at a minimum the VSX56txi but the local shop had neither in stock or on order so I took home the 1014 knowing it was just an interim solution. I might still pursue a VSX59txi receiver now and let the HDMI situation mature a little bit before acquiring a unit with that capability. I'm off topic now so back to the DVD players. After reading both of these threads on the 59 and 79 DVD players I was leaning toward the 79 but still want some assurance from people like Lee Lang and yourself that have tried both that it would be a reasonable choice. I will continue to try and find one to demo while I travel the next couple months before I dig out the plastic. So far I have only found one BB/Magnolia store that had one but it was not on display so no demo. I would feel a lot better about the choice if I could see and hear one before I purchase. Thanks again for your inputs.

I would at least wait another week until the Secret's review is up. They always review both the HDMI and component outputs.

Agreed. Good or bad I am looking forward to reading the Secrets review. I will not be buying until March. My son just graduated from college in December so those expenses and Christmas are hitting the credit card this month. I need another month to recover before I put a new DVD player in the rack. I just bought a new rack online and some Cobalt speaker cables on ebay so I have enough to play with the next few weekends getting it all set up permanently.

Well I am still pretty darn happy with my 79avi. I think it sounds superb and the PQ is mighty nice until I decide to do the HD thing when it settles down. I see myself keeping the Pioneer for CD's, SACDs, and DVDA for a very looooong time after I get the HD player.

Thanks Wingnut. I have the same plans for a standard def player. I will happily enjoy my DVDs, CDs, DVDAs, and SACDs while I watch the high def drama play out and the software supplies build up. I appreciate your opinions.

hello 79avi owners i will be a proud owner of one tomorrow as my local shop will be getting mine in i can't wait to be a part of this thread it will be hooked up to my 56txi i'm psyched just wanted to share thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Wingnut. I have the same plans for a standard def player. I will happily enjoy my DVDs, CDs, DVDAs, and SACDs while I watch the high def drama play out and the software supplies build up. I appreciate your opinions.

Thanks :) It's just fun isn't it?

Half Fast:

I had a 59 for about a year before upgrading to the 79 and have used only the component connection with i-link. I admit I read a lot more than I post on this forum due to the fact that I am still learning a great deal from excellent threads like this one and I'm still afraid of saying something stupid and having 10 guys jump on it. Anyway, I feel I must comment on my experiences with these two machines. I'm not one to throw in complicated test patterns and analyze how my player is performing and as a result I have never witnessed anything wrong with my 79 even after Kris found that there is a problem with the way it handles some materials. I have only ever played movies that I have rented or bought and I have absolutely loved the picture I am getting from this player. I am so glad that I traded in my 59 for this 79 because I feel there IS a step up in picture quality ( through component).
As for audio I am only using the i-link so I can only comment on that. Again I feel the 79 is better especially when watching movies. Before I got my 59 I was using a cheapy Panasonic player. When I started using my 59 I noticed the surrounds didn't seem to be as active as they were when using even the old Panny. When I finally got rid of the 59 and started using the 79 I immediately noticed the surround effect seemed more enveloping once again. I just feel like the 79 is the player that I was SUPPOSED to get when I invested all that money to upgrade my cheap Panny player with a $1500 ( Canadian ) 59 player. Now I am very happy with my picture and movies are really enveloping once again. There seems to be more bottom end with the 79 as well.

Others may feel differently but for me I don't notice any problems concerning the picture with the 79 and I love the way this unit sounds! I don't regret upgrading from the 59 at all.

I have been following this thread for a while and it seems to run in two cycles, you got the scientific crew who will not accept the 79 on the merits that it does not do well in some laboratory tests and you got the "real world" crew who actually purchased this DVD player and is so thrilled that they are having a hard time with anyone criticizing it. I suspect that if you are in the latter group and are concerned about this DVD player being universally accepted, you aren't going to like the formal Secrets report. Personally, I really don't see anything wrong with either camp on the issue, there are obviously some people who enjoy the quest for finding the most "correctly" performing DVD player, albeit under unnatural conditions, and those that look for other gratifications in their choice. One thing that has been clearly stated by the scientific camp is that we all must remember that when you get to this level of DVD player, they all perform to an excellent standard and the differences these days are very small, in fact, the PQ differences just aren't there unless you test and/or seek them out. That is really good news for the "average consumer" although relatively speaking, we are all beyond the "average consumer" because we are spending a great deal of money to purchase a DVD player on this level and spend alot of personal time to share opinions with one another. The reality for me is that in addition to the colorful and detailed picture achieved by most DVD players in this class, I feel that there are other things that make a DVD player a joy to own including but not limited to ease of operation, features and build. I feel the Pioneer 79 excels in all of these areas comparatively to the many DVD players I have owned and that whether it be macro blocking, cue errors or whatever, the "perfect" scientific player is not obtainable at around the $1,000 price point. There are just those that are scientifically judged to be better than others here and the DVD players that do pass more tests don't necessarily offer generally a better picture in most viewing circumstances nor do they represent the best overall value. Moreover, with some of these DVD players, there may be a trade off between a player that passes more tests and one that may be a step backward from the 79 in other areas like build, dependability and ease of operation. I suspect that the folks who are purchasing this player will continue to be happy and those that are testing it will continue to find fault. We are all splitting hairs here but it is all good, thanks to all for the good read.

Well, I must fall into the "scientific" category then :) , because if Kris' tests say that the 59AVi is a better video player, then that's what I want. I understand that the problems with the 79AVi might not be visible during most movie watching, but *I* would know that they are there and that would bother me. I have a 59AVi now. Why would I and others "upgrade" to a player that might not be better? Don't get me wrong: I *am* waiting for the Secrets review, *and* I'm waiting to see if there's anything Pioneer can do to fix the problems it has. I do hope they can address the issues it has. Who knows? Maybe Kris found some things that even Pioneer didn't know about. Wouldn't surprise me knowing how thorough he is.

The Gladiator scene is pretty visible to me. I also see combing artifacts in various scenes if I adjust progressive speed to slow to compensate. I am not a fan of tweaking the player during a movie to get the best results. My other player doesn't have this issue.

Also, the YC delay issue is something that Pioneer engineers should never have alowed to happen. All you have to do is throw up a color bar screen and it will slap you in the face. It is much harder to see in real world but again a steady full face shot on screen will reveil this too. Once I know a problem exists I have a hard time dismissing it.

I took the proceeds from the sale of my 79 and got talked into an Xbox 360 and some software. OT but the Xbox forum thread is awesome if you are looking to find one w/o paying over retail. In fact, I got one for $60 off. ;)

Well, I must fall into the "scientific" category then :) , because if Kris' tests say that the 59AVi is a better video player, then that's what I want. I understand that the problems with the 79AVi might not be visible during most movie watching, but *I* would know that they are there and that would bother me. I have a 59AVi now. Why would I and others "upgrade" to a player that might not be better? Don't get me wrong: I *am* waiting for the Secrets review, *and* I'm waiting to see if there's anything Pioneer can do to fix the problems it has. I do hope they can address the issues it has. Who knows? Maybe Kris found some things that even Pioneer didn't know about. Wouldn't surprise me knowing how thorough he is.

Well I fall into the "real world" category. And I went from the 59avi to the 79avi with no regrets at all. I can fully understand why someone would not want to go to the 79avi from the 59avi, but if someone does so be it. Maybe I am not as "scientific" as some but if I can not see a problem then I do not have a problem. I believe some people instead of sitting down to enjoy a DVD are to busy looking for any type of flaw from their player.

I respect Kris' findings and the hard work he puts into the tests he does, but I think some people put too much emphasis on the results. In the end how much better is the 59avi over the 79avi, if at all? I think the ultimate test would be to have two identical displays side by side one fed by the 59avi and one by the 79avi (calibrated of course). Then I would like to see how many people could tell which player was which (players out of sight). If Pioneer can fix the problems that I can not see with my 79avi thats fine but if they can not thats fine as well.
Bill

Almost all 58avi (969 in HK) owners throw away their DVDs and change to 79AVI (989 in HK) after seeing the differences (HDMI) , I personally compared component 480i out and can confirm that 989 gave a better pictures on my CRT based system . Kris findings did not came into my enjoyment of the movies .

I join the "real world" group. I can live with "the problem is there but I can't see it" with no regrets. I found the picture to be rock solid with all dvds I played, including Gladiator after turning progressive speed to low. If I had the 59 I would not upgrade because the difference is very small but nothing can be bought for less than 1000 bucks that produces a better picture and sound.

Sergio

I would also say that the size of your display will also have something to do with how much we see these issues. A good FP will be ruthlessly revealing of any video fault much more so than displays 50" or less. Seating distance will also have to be taken into consideration as well as display's quality and whether it was calibrated or not. And there is the audio side which has been the subject of my other posts on this player, and the main reason I love it.

I do see a better picture than my old DV-05. But that old player might as well have been from the stone-age compared against the current crop of top DVD players. For the record, I have not seen the Denon players so I cannot comment on whether it would have been worth it to spend more money for the theoritical improvement in video quality obtained.

Bottom line: The strengths of the 79 in my system far outweight the video weaknesses of which I do not debate, and may be more of an issue when I go FP. But with my 50" RPTV they are trivial, and the benefits of the is player and I-LINK with my 74txvi are incredible.

Z

Well, I must fall into the "scientific" category then :) , because if Kris' tests say that the 59AVi is a better video player, then that's what I want. I understand that the problems with the 79AVi might not be visible during most movie watching, but *I* would know that they are there and that would bother me. I have a 59AVi now. Why would I and others "upgrade" to a player that might not be better? Don't get me wrong: I *am* waiting for the Secrets review, *and* I'm waiting to see if there's anything Pioneer can do to fix the problems it has. I do hope they can address the issues it has. Who knows? Maybe Kris found some things that even Pioneer didn't know about. Wouldn't surprise me knowing how thorough he is.

Ding, ding, ding! Give the man a prize! I am in the exact same boat as you are Kevin. We shall see.

It's hard to describe... the difference over the equipment I've used before is staggering. I'm unfortunately still having to keep the DVB318 in the system in order to view PAL and non-region-1 DVDs. Whenever I switch to the DVB318 I end up sighing in disgust...

This was very helpful. I'm in the process of transforming my main HT setup to a high end system. I started with the Pioneer VSX-74TXVi and a Mythos 5.1 setup. I've always thought the "top of the line" DVD players were the Oppo and Zenith 318 as both come very highly recommended here at AVS. As I'm waiting for the Pio and speakers to show up, I wasn't happy to see that neither the Oppo or Zenith support SACD. I don't currently own an SACD's, but wanted to experience it given the upgrade of my receiver/speakers.

I am now caught up in the never ending upgrade situation. I just bought the OPPO last month and now I'm considering the Pioneer 79. Coming from the land of $200 DVD players, I'm not sure what to expect from an $800 player -- but I'm mighty curious. I'd be running the HDMI into the Pioneer 74 and then outputing via HDMI to DVI on my GWIII.

Should I take the leap? Has anyone compared the Pioneer 79 to the SONY ES 3100 and ES 9100? The ES 3100 is considerably less. I have a friend who works for Sony which also helps.

Does it makes sense to upgrade with the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray on the horizon?

Thanks for helping a newbie.

cmeink - To be frank, I own a 79avi and for the most part really like it. I have my complaints, but it is a solid unit. Can't argue with how it looks on the rack either. That said, if my display didn't show macroblocking, I would have chosen the Oppo and then a dedicated audio player. Frankly, I still wish I could do that. But, MB is the deal breaker for me. I will say that the 79avi's image does seem more film-like and less noisy than the Denon 1920 I have (everything calibrated). I am looking forward to Oppo's next product so I can hopefully downgrade and save some money.

This was very helpful. I'm in the process of transforming my main HT setup to a high end system. I started with the Pioneer VSX-74TXVi and a Mythos 5.1 setup. I've always thought the "top of the line" DVD players were the Oppo and Zenith 318 as both come very highly recommended here at AVS. As I'm waiting for the Pio and speakers to show up, I wasn't happy to see that neither the Oppo or Zenith support SACD. I don't currently own an SACD's, but wanted to experience it given the upgrade of my receiver/speakers.

I am now caught up in the never ending upgrade situation. I just bought the OPPO last month and now I'm considering the Pioneer 79. Coming from the land of $200 DVD players, I'm not sure what to expect from an $800 player -- but I'm mighty curious. I'd be running the HDMI into the Pioneer 74 and then outputing via HDMI to DVI on my GWIII.

Should I take the leap? Has anyone compared the Pioneer 79 to the SONY ES 3100 and ES 9100? The ES 3100 is considerably less. I have a friend who works for Sony which also helps.

Does it makes sense to upgrade with the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray on the horizon?

Thanks for helping a newbie.

I upgraded from the 3100 to the 79 in our bedroom set up, the 3100 is an excellent DVD player but a little slow in ease of operation. The 79 at just under a $1,000 really shows how far DVD players have come, in my opinion, it is superior to my old 47ai (which was a nice player in its' time) and better than my Denon 2900 all things considered in terms of overall value. With the 79 you get perhaps the most robust DVD player on the market for build and features, a picture competitive with the best offerings at this price point as far as "real world" viewing is concerned. Ultimately, if you want a player that looks great and has the "feel" that you are getting a fair trade for your dollar, the 79 has will make you happy. Alternatively, if you are sensitive to how this player measures up in a testing environment and/or have a rather large revealing display capable of exaggerating subtle flaws (which you look for and are aware of), you may want to make your decision based on those factors. It all depends what is important to you.

Coming from the land of $200 DVD players, I'm not sure what to expect from an $800 player -- but I'm mighty curious.

That's the same point I was coming from as well, with the Zenith and NeuNeo players. Since the 79avi was 4x+ the cost of other players I had used, I was gunshy about investing that much. In retrospect, I'm sooooo glad I made the jump; budget be damned.

Keep in mind that with my 65" Mits RPTV, both macroblocking and green push were QUITE evident... not to mention unGodly annoying. The 79avi fixed both issues.

I also like now having a player that is built like a tank and provides SACD and DVD-A output. I'm only using the 5.1 analog outputs to my receiver; no digital connection whatsoever. The sound is glorious.

I've read some people lamenting that the 79avi doesn't match the Denon 5910 in performance. I wouldn't expect it to, given that the 5910 costs 2x to 3x as much. I think comparing it to the Onkyo is a bit closer of a comparison (only about $500 more than the Pioneer). The lack of 480i over HDMI and saving $500 ultimately persuaded me to try the 79avi first (had the 79avi not performed beyond expectations, I would have tried the Onkyo next).

No regrets whatsoever. While the scientific test results may be discouraging to some, they aren't the overriding factor (or shouldn't be, IMO). There are other aspects of this player that the Secrets test won't even factor in (build quality, audio stage, features, ergonomics), so those who wish to make the test results THE definitive determining factor as to whether a player is good or bad, go right ahead... you'll just ultimately be missing out on one hell of a player... :D

(and since I don't own the movie Gladiator or the test pattern disc, I guess I'm safe from the bug... ;))

That's the same point I was coming from as well, with the Zenith and NeuNeo players. Since the 79avi was 4x+ the cost of other players I had used, I was gunshy about investing that much. In retrospect, I'm sooooo glad I made the jump; budget be damned.

Keep in mind that with my 65" Mits RPTV, both macroblocking and green push were QUITE evident... not to mention unGodly annoying. The 79avi fixed both issues.

I also like now having a player that is built like a tank and provides SACD and DVD-A output. I'm only using the 5.1 analog outputs to my receiver; no digital connection whatsoever. The sound is glorious.

I've read some people lamenting that the 79avi doesn't match the Denon 5910 in performance. I wouldn't expect it to, given that the 5910 costs 2x to 3x as much. I think comparing it to the Onkyo is a bit closer of a comparison (only about $500 more than the Pioneer). The lack of 480i over HDMI and saving $500 ultimately persuaded me to try the 79avi first (had the 79avi not performed beyond expectations, I would have tried the Onkyo next).

No regrets whatsoever. While the scientific test results may be discouraging to some, they aren't the overriding factor (or shouldn't be, IMO). There are other aspects of this player that the Secrets test won't even factor in (build quality, audio stage, features, ergonomics), so those who wish to make the test results THE definitive determining factor as to whether a player is good or bad, go right ahead... you'll just ultimately be missing out on one hell of a player... :D

(and since I don't own the movie Gladiator or the test pattern disc, I guess I'm safe from the bug... ;))

Good post and obviously I agree with you if you have followed any of my prior comments. To your point, I have had an SP1000 as well and it is truly a dream DVD player, here again, a player that will never "test" out to be the "best" but a wonderful DVD player and perhaps a more accomplished DVD player than most in terms of overall value. The 79avi in my opinion gives you alot of what the SP1000 gives you video wise and a similar build and creature comforts. The audio in the Onkyo is probably better but it is a DVD player after all. As mentioned, we are splitting hairs video wise with most of these DVD players in this class, they all have their little downfalls in a testing environment which probably doesn't translate to much in the typical user circumstances so I agree that the other aspects you brought up should factor in.

I upgraded from the 3100 to the 79 in our bedroom set up, the 3100 is an excellent DVD player but a little slow in ease of operation. The 79 at just under a $1,000 really shows how far DVD players have come, in my opinion, it is superior to my old 47ai (which was a nice player in its' time) and better than my Denon 2900 all things considered in terms of overall value. With the 79 you get perhaps the most robust DVD player on the market for build and features, a picture competitive with the best offerings at this price point as far as "real world" viewing is concerned. Ultimately, if you want a player that looks great and has the "feel" that you are getting a fair trade for your dollar, the 79 has will make you happy. Alternatively, if you are sensitive to how this player measures up in a testing environment and/or have a rather large revealing display capable of exaggerating subtle flaws (which you look for and are aware of), you may want to make your decision based on those factors. It all depends what is important to you.

How does the picture quality of the 79AVi compare to the Sony 3100?

I was running the 3100 via component and it was top notch, the 79 I am using HDMI. I can't really say that one stands out better than the other, I just don't sit there and study the image. To that end, they both have rich colors, outstanding detial and depth of field. Sorry I can't be more definitive.

got the 79 last night hooked it up to my 56 and my samsung dlp and wow the picture quality is soooooooo much better than it was with my samsung dvd player audio i much better through i link as well it feels good to hear a dts track again(with my samsung i kept getting dts dropouts even after the firmware update)i am extremely happy with my purchase i can see what you guys are talking about it has superb quality

Gmoney80

Welcome to the "real world" group. Just don't get one of those test disks and never watch Gladiator and you will be a happy camper. BTW, if you really want to watch Gladiator just skip chapter 12 or turn "progressive " to slow on video adjust.

Sergio

Nice to see some `Real World' reports coming along ;)

Very Happy `User' Here

E

Does anyone own the 79 in silver and if so how do you like the look? Can someone post some pics of your own silver 79?
Thanks!

Nice to see some `Real World' reports coming along ;)

Very Happy `User' Here

E

Maybe a "Real World" thread for the 79avi should be started! I'm sitting down to watch Flight Plan, am also still very happy with this player.

Bill

I have completed exhaustive audio test with my new 79avi and I would like to share some very disturbing findings.

While listening to Pink Floyd, Dark Side of the Moon, track 5. I have discovered a 60 cycle hum. I know that this is a known mixing error mastered into the recording by Allen Parsons but I would have hoped that Pioneer would have found a way by now to remove this from the mix of this bad recording. It is evident in the SACD version as well as all of the many copies that I have bought through the years including all 167 re-releases, the 24bit releases and all of the re-re-releases. I am utterly depressed by this and have placed my Pink Floyd CDs back on the shelf next to my collection of Catcher in the Rye books. I know that the audio on most other discs is otherwise the best I have heard but just knowing this fact ruins my enjoyment of this otherwise great player.

I am now going to lock myself in my theater away from my family for several nights and evaluate, in excruciating detail, the video performance of the 79avi utilizing my vast collection of test discs and grueling PC test patterns and video files. When I finish I am sure I will have more "secrets" to disappoint you with!

Stay tuned for my post latter this week...unless I get too depressed and slit my wrists before I can post.

.
:D :D :D :D :D

While listening to Pink Floyd, Dark Side of the Moon, track 5. I have discovered a 60 cycle hum. I know that this is a known mixing error mastered into the recording by Allen Parsons but I would have hoped that Pioneer would have found a way by now to remove this from the mix of this bad recording.

Are you kidding? You're blaming Pioneer for a disc mastering issue? I would be more concerned if I *couldn't* hear that. It's on the disc. The player is supposed to perfectly reproduce what's on the disc. Warts and all. Period.

Are you kidding? You're blaming Pioneer for a disc mastering issue? I would be more concerned if I *couldn't* hear that. It's on the disc. The player is supposed to perfectly reproduce what's on the disc. Warts and all. Period.

I think you answered your own question. I thought I had all 166 re-releases of DSOTM, must have missed one!

On a slightly more serious note I recalibrated my plasma (with DVE) last night with settings on the 79avi closer to where they were out of the box. Also while watching Flight Plan last night I noticed what looked like a delay in the signal almost like what I have read about some flat panel LCDs.

I had the progressive motion set to the slowest setting. I increased this setting to one click away from the fastest setting and replayed some sections of Flight Plan. I found the PQ to be much improved over the slower setting. I also lowered the YNR and CNR settings to just below halfway. I thought with the YNR and CNR settings higher it was helping with artifacts on some DVDs but found the opposite with Flight Plan. I then played portions of a few other DVDs and the PQ was very good.

Bill

Good One Rick! :D

I think you answered your own question. I thought I had all 166 re-releases of DSOTM, must have missed one!

On a slightly more serious note I recalibrated my plasma (with DVE) last night with settings on the 79avi closer to where they were out of the box. Also while watching Flight Plan last night I noticed what looked like a delay in the signal almost like what I have read about some flat panel LCDs.

I had the progressive motion set to the slowest setting. I increased this setting to one click away from the fastest setting and replayed some sections of Flight Plan. I found the PQ to be much improved over the slower setting. I also lowered the YNR and CNR settings to just below halfway. I thought with the YNR and CNR settings higher it was helping with artifacts on some DVDs but found the opposite with Flight Plan. I then played portions of a few other DVDs and the PQ was very good.

Bill

Reduce the YNR and CNR even lower. I've found that I can now see motion smearing (the delay you spoke of) even above about 1 click of NR. I bet you that's what it is...

Reduce the YNR and CNR even lower. I've found that I can now see motion smearing (the delay you spoke of) even above about 1 click of NR. I bet you that's what it is...

I too have found that lowering the YNR and CNR sliders to just above minimum (in Auto2 mode) yields the best picture quality with regular DVD's. However, with Superbit DVD's (Fifth Element, Black Hawk Down, etc), I've found that using Auto1 mode and putting the YNR and CNR levels to about mid-level (or just below it) provides the best picture quality. I figured this could have to do with the fact they're direct digital transfers.

I haven't yet moved the Prog. Motion slider above mid-level, so I'm going to try that next. I set it according to what other owners posted as the optimal settings, but logic always made me think that Prog. Motion set to Fast would be better (based upon the description of the slider's function in the player's menu). Does anyone know exactly what the Prog. Motion slider is meant to calibrate?

Are you kidding? You're blaming Pioneer for a disc mastering issue? I would be more concerned if I *couldn't* hear that. It's on the disc. The player is supposed to perfectly reproduce what's on the disc. Warts and all. Period.

Kevin, of course I'm kidding.

Rick Green is a guy who (tongue placed firmly in cheek) wrote a post about someone who has his tie a little too tight and is so OCD that he probably has spent all his money on defective DSOTM CDs and test discs and has no money to buy music and movie discs to enjoy. This guy is so obsessed that he can't enjoy his new 79avi because he knows that someone who is even more OCD than himself has found out some dirty little secrets about his new 79avi.

I know these internet review sights have some small amount of merit and we are all to lesser or greater degrees striving for the best PQ, but come on, let me poke some fun while we all wait for these "secret" reviews to come out. The suspense is killing me :D I won't know until I read the review whether or not I can enjoy this wonderful player. Personally, I'm not going to commit one way or the other on the quality of this player until I read the review ;)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

While everyone waits for the "secret" review, test your OCD quotient:

[Number of times per day you refresh the "secret" home page multiplied by the number of discs you own that you watch mainly to judge PQ] divided by [the times per week you watch a movie for pleasure only] = OCDq


Now I would like to settle back into my OCD persona and just say this: Damn you chroma error! I will never be able to watch a DVD without looking for you. And, don't even get me started with that diabolical sharpness setting. That is one tricky little vicious-circle, isn't it? Set it too high and you get ringing! Too low and the picture is fuzzy! Up then down all movie long!!! :D I know they just put it there to drive me crazy. The only movie I can enjoy is the 5th Element super bit. Perfect!

Hi,

I just purchased the 79 a few weeks ago and for the most part, I'm pretty happy with it. I'm running 480i -> DVD VP30 1080i -> Sony 60 xbr1. I have no interest in multichannel and I'm currently using an outboard DAC (Birdland) to handle the downconverted DTS, etc. audio (PCM) to some Mark Levinson gear. I have a high end dedicated CD player as well as a standalone SACD player so I don't really have a strong interest in audio performance.

I was thinking about upgrading to the 5910 (without using the VP30) because of all the positive reviews. From those with experience with the two players, is the gain in video performance something that a non-videophile will notice and appreciate or is it one of those pay 100%+ more, get a 5% gain in performance situations? If so, I was just going to wait a couple of years and get a reference HD player when the format wars settle down a bit.

Thanks in advance!

-Winston

Hi,

I just purchased the 79 a few weeks ago and for the most part, I'm pretty happy with it. I'm running 480i -> DVD VP30 1080i -> Sony 60 xbr1. I have no interest in multichannel and I'm currently using an outboard DAC (Birdland) to handle the downconverted DTS, etc. audio (PCM) to some Mark Levinson gear. I have a high end dedicated CD player as well as a standalone SACD player so I don't really have a strong interest in audio performance.

I was thinking about upgrading to the 5910 (without using the VP30) because of all the positive reviews. From those with experience with the two players, is the gain in video performance something that a non-videophile will notice and appreciate or is it one of those pay 100%+ more, get a 5% gain in performance situations? If so, I was just going to wait a couple of years and get a reference HD player when the format wars settle down a bit.

Thanks in advance!

-Winston

Mark Levinson amps, perhaps? I envy you. :)

Sounds like your more of an audiophile than videophile. Why not just get an OPPO player for the video, and save $800? I only bought the 79 because it's my only source for both music and movies, and wanted to use I-Link to my receiver.

As you already invested in high-quality audio components, I wouldn't spend anymore than what the OPPO goes for on your DVD player with HD around the corner. But...if your a true videophile, then, yes the Denon is one of the best, as is the 79. Build quality is audiophile-caliber, as well. But the 5% gain in performance clause applies in my opinion.

Z

Ok, I went out and bought a 79AVI or as it kknown here 989AVi-S. Damn thing set me back $800USD or $1070AUD. I believe that is a good price ?

Looking to test this baby out soon. I would never buy such a lavish DVD player unless I was going to be using it for music too, so video is very important but so is the music side of things. Hope Airsoft Tuned logo stands for something.

I will be using an HDMI-2-Dvi cable, since my TV only has DVI-in and I think it is 8-bit processor. However even it had a 10-bit processor how could I take advantage of this with DVI ?


Before this i had a Marantz 7600, at first I liked it, then the bugs started showng themselves. Very choppy firmware and had one powersupply for both Audio and Video circuitry. But the biggest fault was that it had an incompatibility when used with HDMI-2-DVI cable and my TV and sound would jitter if the TV was off and the DVD payer would be playing back MP3 or DVD content.

Reduce the YNR and CNR even lower. I've found that I can now see motion smearing (the delay you spoke of) even above about 1 click of NR. I bet you that's what it is...

I will try that, maybe the improvement was lowering the YNR/CNR and not the change in the progressive motion setting. I changed both settings at the same time.

Thanks, Bill

Kevin, of course I'm kidding.

Whew! ;)

I'm looking forward to contributing to this thread. I just ordered a DV-79avi-s to replace a Denon DVD-2910 (and DVD-1920). I loved the Denons, but the MB was killing me. :(

Hi,

I have owned my 79 for a week or two now and I am pretty impressed with its construction and performance. The seperate audio ps seems to make a very nice difference in the sound. (It uses linear regs for the audio PS no more switching PS here!) The video output looks just as nice as the dvd 5900 I compared it to.

Just my .02, winstoncho, I would really consider keeping the 79 and buying a new scaler (Vantage HD or Crystilio II) then you will have the great deinterlacing and scaling for all your sources, not just for dvd. (This will even help with Br or HDdvd some day as 1080p sets are taking off, and the 5910 will not send 1080p as I understand it)

God bless...

Mark

Thanks for all the info in this thread. I just ordered the 79avi and will pair it with the 74vxi. The Pio is my first real high end DVD player. I've been very happy with the Zenith 318 and the Oppo 971. I'm anxious to see what a DVD player that's 4 times the cost of others has to offer. Lack of iLink and SACD in the Oppo/Zenith led me to the 79avi.

Hi cmeinc,

You can pretty well expect a very nice improvement in the picture quality and a very noticable improvement in the sound quality of botht eh analog and digital outputs. (Most people think digital output will be the same from all players, but this is just not the case. The better the player/power supply/DIT chip that sends the digital output, the better the sound out of the toslink and coax outs!)

COngrats,

God bless...

Mark

got the 79 last night hooked it up to my 56 and my samsung dlp and wow the picture quality is soooooooo much better than it was with my samsung dvd player audio i much better through i link as well it feels good to hear a dts track again(with my samsung i kept getting dts dropouts even after the firmware update)i am extremely happy with my purchase i can see what you guys are talking about it has superb quality

I wouldn't throw/give away that Samsung though. When it comes to playing recorded dvds (such as those created from downloaded torrent files) my Samsung HD841 has no problems... My Pioneer 79AVi hangs or stumbles when playing some of these.

Maybe a "Real World" thread for the 79avi should be started! I'm sitting down to watch Flight Plan, am also still very happy with this player.

Bill

Might as well keep it here.

As I move through my normal cycle of older & newer films, I find many improvements on audio & video from my last pass on the new stuff. There are a number of titles that are either old enough or not the best quality that are harder to view with the increased source quality. As they say, more of the good AND the bad. Seems about right. Some bad transfers have a way of biting your hand when you try the new source. I don't know why some people expect 20 year old rock music and old film to suddenly loose 10-15 years off it's age with a better player.

One nice surprise was the new Great Escape. Amazing how well the Aud/Vid plays. Someone did fine restoration on the title.

A nice improvement with center voice on the 79 for me. Other than my first few days, I did not concentrate to perceive such things, but there were a number of time's when it was worth a mental note. In this price point, I'm pleased with the audio.

Wish I could add to the test discussion, but the over all presentation of a film is all that matters in my room.

I take the cue from my guests when I mention my new Pio79 and begin to wax about it's Bla Bla. They smile and say `That's very nice E, let's watch the movie'

;)

E

I was on the phone yesterday with the owner of a local 'audiophile' shop discussing an issue with some brightness in my system (unrelated to the 79avi).

I mentioned that I have the 79avi and he proceeded to tell me that he was very familiar with the Pioneer Elite series and had modified them for years. He said that Pioneer uses and always had used 'junk' for their analog circuitry. ...I was a little quiet for a sec and I told him...."um..well it sounds pretty darn good to me.". Then he told me that I needed to familiarize myself with high end audio.

That may be true or not as I have not yet had the pleasure of that familiarization but snobby stuff like this is why I cancelled my subsciption to Stereophile! :eek: Cheez Whiz! :D

I was on the phone yesterday with the owner of a local 'audiophile' shop discussing an issue with some brightness in my system (unrelated to the 79avi).

I mentioned that I have the 79avi and he proceeded to tell me that he was very familiar with the Pioneer Elite series and had modified them for years. He said that Pioneer uses and always had used 'junk' for their analog circuitry. ...I was a little quiet for a sec and I told him...."um..well it sounds pretty darn good to me.". Then he told me that I needed to familiarize myself with high end audio.

That may be true or not as I have not yet had the pleasure of that familiarization but snobby stuff like this is why I cancelled my subsciption to Stereophile! :eek: Cheez Whiz! :D

wingnut,

It' that type of attitude that makes me cringe...

I was at Sound Advice (Tweeter) a while back, and the salesman saw me looking at cables. They were Audioquest interconnects and speaker cable (can't remember which one). He said, "Those cables will make a huge improvement to your system. What are you using?" I said, "I used Monster for a long time, but after reading on the Internet about how expensive cables don't do much to your system I built my own speaker cables out of an extension cord from Home Depot."

He looked at me like I was crazy. Then he said, "But these are SOOO much better, and you could do serious damage to your system with (my cable)." I said, "Well, read up on Audioholics website about how a world famous sound man used a pair of extension cords to drive mega-buck speakers with great results." I, of course, referred him to this forum, too. :)

He didn't know what to say to that, but defended his stance with something dismissive about what you read on the Internet isn't always true...and that I shoud stick with the major rags like Sound and Vision, Home Theater, et. al.

While the salesman was hardly an audiophile his attitude is basically no different than the stereotypical (pun), card-carrying audiophile who dismisses anything that costs less than a second mortgage, or doen't have a boutique name and packaging. It's crazy to me how someone could spend thousands of dollars on cable. Conversly, I don't see the point of spending thousands of dollars on a DVD player either, but at least I can see and hear some benefit in some systems...

So, for the majority of us here, the 79AVi will give us 99% of the performance of the big-buck players, and I would rather spend the bucks saved on my display, amp upgrade, or speakers.

Z

Hi,

Having taken a look inside the 79, I am pretty impressed. For the money it seems well built to me. The seperate PS for audio uses Linear regulators to avoid Switchers that degrade teh sound. It uses BB pcm1738 dacs, BB opa2134 opamps JRC 5523 (I think ) opmaps (The weakest link it the analog chain) 1% metal film resistors, Rubycon caps. Most of these parts are very good for the price point. SOme are event better than one would expect. I find that the stock 79 beat my stock dvd 5900 for audio. The 5900 had more punch, but the 79 has better sound stage, presence and detail. ODn't get me wrong, the 5900 is a great machine, but the 79 holds up very very well to it.

God bless...

Mark

wingnut,

It' that type of attitude that makes me cringe...

I was at Sound Advice (Tweeter) a while back, and the salesman saw me looking at cables. They were Audioquest interconnects and speaker cable (can't remember which one). He said, "Those cables will make a huge improvement to your system. What are you using?" I said, "I used Monster for a long time, but after reading on the Internet about how expensive cables don't do much to your system I built my own speaker cables out of an extension cord from Home Depot."

He looked at me like I was crazy. Then he said, "But these are SOOO much better, and you could do serious damage to your system with (my cable)." I said, "Well, read up on Audioholics website about how a world famous sound man used a pair of extension cords to drive mega-buck speakers with great results." I, of course, referred him to this forum, too. :)

He didn't know what to say to that, but defended his stance with something dismissive about what you read on the Internet isn't always true...and that I shoud stick with the major rags like Sound and Vision, Home Theater, et. al.

While the salesman was hardly an audiophile his attitude is basically no different than the stereotypical (pun), card-carrying audiophile who dismisses anything that costs less than a second mortgage, or doen't have a boutique name and packaging. It's crazy to me how someone could spend thousands of dollars on cable. Conversly, I don't see the point of spending thousands of dollars on a DVD player either, but at least I can see and hear some benefit in some systems...

So, for the majority of us here, the 79AVi will give us 99% of the performance of the big-buck players, and I would rather spend the bucks saved on my display, amp upgrade, or speakers.

Z


I hate those attitudes as well, the elitist audiophile attitude is really obnoxious but then again so is the lamp cord guy. Both are extremes, I have found that the answer is somewhere in the middle. Anyway, this thread is looking like a real lovefest here and the Pioneer is getting some justifiably good feedback from those who are best suited to rate it, the actual owners. In fact, things are going almost too well here, it seems like we are ripe for someone to step in and point out how the Pioneer got tripped up when freeze framing the closing credits of Finding Nemo or something. It is probably only a matter of days until Secrets officially rips this wonderful player a new you know what and I am sure that will re-infuse the vein of negativity. I hope not because this is one hell of a DVD player for under a grand, glad you all are enjoying it.

To be quite honest I'm not really concerned what the Secrets test results are. I have enjoyed this player from day one and have not had one problem with it. So if the 79avi in testing fails this or that if I can not see it in day to day use does not concern me. As just stated the feedback from "actual" owners is very positive. To me someone commenting on performance of a component they do not own or have had no hands on experience with is not very important to me either.

Bill

So, for the majority of us here, the 79AVi will give us 99% of the performance of the big-buck players, and I would rather spend the bucks saved on my display, amp upgrade, or speakers.

Perphaps I'm naive, but I think $800 to $1000 for a DVD player is big bucks. I'm sure there are a number of players that cost thousands more, but for personal use this more than enough. FWIW, I've been very pleased with my $200 Oppo. The HDMI, iLink, SACD and synergy with the Pio 74vxi is what I'm hoping to gain with the Pioneer 79avi. From what I've read here, I should be pleasantly surprised with the picture.

Ask 5 friends if they $800 to $1000 is big bucks for a DVD player and I'd bet 5 out of 5 say it is. From my research here, I think this player will be worth it's price - but I wouldn't break the $1k mark for any player. Movies like Red Eye just aren't worth it.

To be quite honest I'm not really concerned what the Secrets test results are. I have enjoyed this player from day one and have not had one problem with it. So if the 79avi in testing fails this or that if I can not see it in day to day use does not concern me. As just stated the feedback from "actual" owners is very positive. To me someone commenting on performance of a component they do not own or have had no hands on experience with is not very important to me either.

Bill

Well put Bill, this is the attitude I think more should take. If you are using my benchmark results for advice, find out what tests mean something to you in day to day viewing and use them as a GUIDE. Try players out in your home or at a friends if possible. Use the benchmark as a guide, not as a rule.

Has anyone tried the region-free hack (via a Pronto hex code) found elsewhere on the web? I understand there's no PAL-NTSC conversion possible in the 79avi, but I'm curious about the region-free playback of the unit in general.

Any thoughts?

Well put Bill, this is the attitude I think more should take. If you are using my benchmark results for advice, find out what tests mean something to you in day to day viewing and use them as a GUIDE. Try players out in your home or at a friends if possible. Use the benchmark as a guide, not as a rule.

Kris,

Thank you for the kind words. I was hoping my comments would not come across that your tests are not important which of course they are. When the benchmark for the 79avi is out I will most definitely take a look.

Bill

Kris,

Thank you for the kind words. I was hoping my comments would not come across that your tests are not important which of course they are. When the benchmark for the 79avi is out I will most definitely take a look.

Bill

I may not look at the results simply because the tests don't correlate with my everyday viewing and feel confident that I made a good choice but nevertheless, I also agree with what Kris's last post as well.

I hate those attitudes as well, the elitist audiophile attitude is really obnoxious but then again so is the lamp cord guy.

For the record, I'm an extension cord guy myself. ;)

I agree with your comments. As I am buying a whole new system I am actually buying some decent speaker cable from River Cable and Blue Jeans Canare for the surrounds.

As far as Secrets go I think they and Audioholics are the best mags out there, and I hope they continue to exist for a long time to come...I wouldn't have bought my new Onix Reference 3's without Kris's excellent review. :D

The 79 is a great player, and I think even Kris would acknowledge that...but for absolute video quality I think that tests don't lie, and that the Pioneer can be bested, but not to any significant visible degree with real world material. Consider this:

I (the 79) got a 97%, you (Denon) got a 99% on the test so you must be smarter than me...but just how smarter; not enough, IMO, but it would keep me out of MENSA. :)

Jim Z

I may not look at the results simply because the tests don't correlate with my everyday viewing and feel confident that I made a good choice but nevertheless, I also agree with what Kris's last post as well.

I wrote a lot more, but deleted it because I don't want to start something. All I will say is ignorance is bliss. Glad you are happy with your decision.

I added a new Furutech IEC inlet. I wasn't too happy with the grip strength of the stock two conductor. Added a few pics of the inside of my 79.

I don't expect any sound improvements, but I know that my custom power cord won't be falling out.

marty

I have been benching the 79avi and 59avi both for fun. I got a steal of a price on a 59avi with the latest firmware.

I find both these players to be excellent with film. Let me say, truely stellar with film material, just outstanding compared to anything I have seen.

I turned up the HDMI detail high and love it.

I ran the HQV disc through on the 59avi, and the only test it failed i could spot was the race track film one.

The stands had nasty banding or flutter or whatever as the red race car went around the track.

The 59 avi did really stellar on the cadence tests.

But having said this, the color saturation and quality and lifelikeness of the colors is still a step up with the 79avi. They are both great boxes from what I can see. But for some reason my Star Trek Voyager dvd's have better color on the 79avi, especially the skintones , than the 59avi. Both are great, I won't keep both, but for what its worth it's a post from someone who has these 2, an Oppo and a 2910. I need to seel some of it off and get Bluray or HD Dvd right,lol.

I have recalibrated my set twice with Avia and run HQV as well, so I am not sure what the exact difference on the color is yet, maybe its still some mistake I am making in calibration. Its alot of fun to compare 2 such high quality players though I have to say, when pretty much everything that goes into either one comes out looking so dam good. Coming from 2 Faroudja players I guess I am loving the lack of green push, graininess and MB I see on those.

This has wet my appetite for a 5910 or 5910ci, but I have to wonder just how much better than can actually do with a disc compared to either Pioneer. It is food for thought.

I am concerned about the 79avi though, if the flaw Chris found will show up on material. So far I haven't seen it, but you know how that goes, the moment you say something you jinx yourself! Out of time for tonight, its 1am!

I wrote a lot more, but deleted it because I don't want to start something. All I will say is ignorance is bliss. Glad you are happy with your decision.

I guess I should thank you for being a gentleman by deleting your comments, I am glad you have grown up a little, we can certainly see things differently without being confrontational. Peace.

For the record, I'm an extension cord guy myself. ;)

I agree with your comments. As I am buying a whole new system I am actually buying some decent speaker cable from River Cable and Blue Jeans Canare for the surrounds.

As far as Secrets go I think they and Audioholics are the best mags out there, and I hope they continue to exist for a long time to come...I wouldn't have bought my new Onix Reference 3's without Kris's excellent review. :D

The 79 is a great player, and I think even Kris would acknowledge that...but for absolute video quality I think that tests don't lie, and that the Pioneer can be bested, but not to any significant visible degree with real world material. Consider this:

I (the 79) got a 97%, you (Denon) got a 99% on the test so you must be smarter than me...but just how smarter; not enough, IMO, but it would keep me out of MENSA. :)

Jim Z

Yes sir, agreed and congrats on the step up on cables. Your comment "but not to any significant visible degree with real world material" is pretty much how I feel about the testing but feel that it is an interesting read as is anything from Audioholics. With so much snake oil in this hobby, it is hard to discredit reliable objective testing as done by Secrets and Audioholics, however, everything needs to be taken in context.

ZZtop

Just to have some fun, if you have a copy of Gladiator can you tell us if there is any artifacts during the roof top/Coliseum scene when using the 59? I have 3 totally different DVD players and they all show the same "zebra" effect . With the 79 , the progress motion set to low almost eliminate the problem and I wonder how well does the 59 perform.

Thanks

Sergio

I guess I should thank you for being a gentleman by deleting your comments, I am glad you have grown up a little, we can certainly see things differently without being confrontational. Peace.


Haha! When have I not acted in a mature manner on here? Did we have an argument a long time ago I don't remember or something? :p

I agree we can see things differently, that's fine. I'm just one of those people who want as much information as possible, and it's hard for me to understand others who don't want to know EVERYTHING. But, that's their (your) choice :)

I have to say, I feel the 79AVi has a smoothness to it, without grain or MB that my Faroudja-based Denon 1920 can't match. It does just seem to look better (even ignoring the crippling MB problem of the 23XX chip), but I have a lot of quibbles with the 79 as well. There is a minor to moderate scaling artifact that looks like EE I can't get rid of (only reduce it by running 480p, but that has its own issues); I find that the remote, while intiutive, is irritating and annoying because of the clumsy joystick thing; the layer change is still too slow for me; the menu navigation could be faster; and I wish it did better in regards to "jaggies."

Why can't there be a perfect player for under $500, much less under $1k? Is this really that hard?

Jonny

If you use HDMI detail to anything but zero it will produce EE. The problem is if you set it at zero it will also produce he "claymation" effect very noticeable with trees. I live my HDMI detail in the middle because I can live with the EE but not with the claymation.

Sergio

you are right about the clayface thing. if you turn off hdmi detail you get it so i also keep it about halfway on. wonder why that happens.

I just upgraded to a Optoma H79 pj and with that came the brutal truth of the ugly macroblocking phenomenon on my Denon DVD-3910. I can not live with that so I sold it today actually and now I am looking for a new player. I thought I found it in the Pioneer 79AVi (989 here in Europe) but after reading Kris's feelings towards the player I am becoming very hesitant to buy it. I really don't know what player I should get now but I need a player very soon which has HDMI/DVI, nice upscaling without artefacts and most importantly, no macroblocking. The Marantz 9600 I thought about but it is still pretty expensive.

I just upgraded to a Optoma H79 pj and with that came the brutal truth of the ugly macroblocking phenomenon on my Denon DVD-3910. I can not live with that so I sold it today actually and now I am looking for a new player. I thought I found it in the Pioneer 79AVi (989 here in Europe) but after reading Kris's feelings towards the player I am becoming very hesitant to buy it. I really don't know what player I should get now but I need a player very soon which has HDMI/DVI, nice upscaling without artefacts and most importantly, no macroblocking. The Marantz 9600 I thought about but it is still pretty expensive.

You can probably still find a 59avi for $700 or less; hard to beat.

The Secrets benchmark test results are now available here. (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=125#Pioneer%20EliteDV-79AVi%20Universal%20DVD%20Player%20(HDMI)) .

The Secrets benchmark test results are now available here. (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=125#Pioneer%20EliteDV-79AVi%20Universal%20DVD%20Player%20(HDMI)) .

Let the debates begin!!

What does the Detail setting do? I've slid it back and forth and can see no changes on my screen. I'm running at 480i over the component connections, maybe it doesn't have an effect on unscaled video?

I thought Kris gave a very fair review. My home theater is not done yet so I have not used the 79 yet. I hope Pioneer takes his advise and offers a firmware update to improve the player.

Do you think that Pioneer is aware of the problems on this unit?

They will be now.

quick question i have my 79 hooked up to my 56 and for some reason everytime i turn off the 79 and turn it back on it will not recognize the audio through i link i have to keep going back through the menu and reselect it and it will recognize it does anyone know how i can solve this or is it just something i have to do everytime?

Kris, thanks a lot for posting the review on the 79Avi on Secrets of Home Theatre.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com

As you say, if Pioneer did not know about problems on the 79AVi..well the evidence is there for all to see.

I have the 989AVi and I had a look at "Gladiator " Chapter 12 last night to see if I could see the problems. The errant scene must be slightly earlier, because I did not see it in that chapter. I'll have to search earlier scenes. I was however so impressed with the movie, and how well it looked that I watched it from there until the end. I had previously only seen Gladiator on a 36" TV...via the Z4 and the 989AVi it is stunning.

So my analysis is that that Z4 and the 989Avi make a particularly good combination, esp when running the sound via i.link to the Yamaha 4600.

Thanks again for the fine in-depth review.

The Sky is Falling! :D

Do you guys think firmware updates are in our future?

The Sky is Falling! :D

Do you guys think firmware updates are in our future?

wingnut, do you have a boat?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4660938.stm

The Pioneer guys in Japan should be very upset now that they know the XBOX360 performs better than the 79.

Sergio

quick question i have my 79 hooked up to my 56 and for some reason everytime i turn off the 79 and turn it back on it will not recognize the audio through i link i have to keep going back through the menu and reselect it and it will recognize it does anyone know how i can solve this or is it just something i have to do everytime?

gmoney80, I thought I had a similar problem with my 989AVi and my Yamaha 4600 receiver. It seemed to occur on occasion.

What had actually occurred was that I had previously either selected (via my remote control) the Tuner on my receiver, or e.g. played a CD and selected that. As a result, the receiver was looking for sound from Tuner or CD, and not from DVD. Once I selected DVD, the i.link light came back on and sound and "light" were restored.

Do you think that Pioneer is aware of the problems on this unit?

I believe Chris Walker, a Pioneer executive, frequents these forums quite regularly. I would sure like to hear a response...

Jim Z

... reads Secrets review of 79avi... :eek:

<tires squeal as car roars out of driveway to return 79avi> :eek:

Yikes! What a mess, so many issues with this model. Well I have both the 79avi and the 59avi sitting here within the return window(l am really wanting a 5910 or 5910ci). I have been playing with the 59avi alot lately, guess I will keep that one and debate a 5910 purchase with 1080p HD and bluray imminent. The 79 sure did fail an awful lots of tests Secrets uses in its benchmarks. <looks glowingly at 59avi :D >

Both give an excellent picture, they truly do, I would just be worried some of this might show up on material suddenly somewhere down the road (esp if it was something that was a favorite ) and ruin my experience, lets hope not for all the 79avi owners. On the plus side HDMI 1.1 and all the audio support is superb at this price piont.

And I have to say both do give incredible images with film, I watched the Return of the Jedi and Legends of the Fall on both players in sections, the image quality overall is very, very good not withstanding each players strengths and weaknesses.

When all is said and done, I think Chris Deering hit the nail right on the head, how in the world did they make a top of the line model with so many more problems than the prior model?? (especially considering its bascially the same platform) And this with Bluray and HD DVD imminent, I am very suprised, and not by the failure of one or two tests but by it failing so many the 59avi passed. This is very odd and unfortunate. I have spent 2 weeks with both players though and while viewing the 79avi I did not see too many viewing issues on the material I viewed ( mostly film and Star Trek Voyager episodes and Nemesis), so that should be some positive news for the current owners.

I also consistently found the colors and saturation to be better and more lifelike on the 79avi, especially skintones, though this may be a calibration issue with swapping players on the display-- so while I am in no way happy to hear this info, Pioneer still made a sale to me with the 59avi :)

Kris,

Will you be showing your findings for component? Also it would be good if you could get your hands on a 59avi using some of the new test discs you used on the 79avi. As you stated in the Benchmark you did not have the Avia Pro when testing the 59avi, did you use the Microsoft HQL disc on the 59avi as well?

I am just curious if different test discs were used on the 59avi than with the 79avi could this change the outcome of the tests? If Pioneer did offer a firmware upgrade is that something that has to be done at a Pioneer repair facility?

Thanks, Bill

I hate those attitudes as well, the elitist audiophile attitude is really obnoxious but then again so is the lamp cord guy. Both are extremes, I have found that the answer is somewhere in the middle. Anyway, this thread is looking like a real lovefest here and the Pioneer is getting some justifiably good feedback from those who are best suited to rate it, the actual owners. In fact, things are going almost too well here, it seems like we are ripe for someone to step in and point out how the Pioneer got tripped up when freeze framing the closing credits of Finding Nemo or something. It is probably only a matter of days until Secrets officially rips this wonderful player a new you know what and I am sure that will re-infuse the vein of negativity. I hope not because this is one hell of a DVD player for under a grand, glad you all are enjoying it.

Told you. Anyway, as far as the review is concerned, actually I thought it was very fair and as always an interesting read. If you own the 79avi and have been happy there is no reason not to continue, if you are a videophile looking to dissect performance a few layers beyond normal viewing circumstances AND bought this DVD player, I guess you got a problem on your hands. If you don't own this DVD player but are a videophile who enjoys feeling that the DVD player that you do own was the right choice, you got a lot of good information to sink your teeth into. For those on the fence and just want a real solid feature rich DVD player AND are not sure what these tests actually mean, you may want to look at several sources before ruling this DVD player out.

I was told by Pionner Engineering at CES that there is no mechanism for any upgrade. I told him about the potential issue, which he was unaware, but he assured me that there is no FW upgrade mechanism.

Kris,

Will you be showing your findings for component? Also it would be good if you could get your hands on a 59avi using some of the new test discs you used on the 79avi. As you stated in the Benchmark you did not have the Avia Pro when testing the 59avi, did you use the Microsoft HQL disc on the 59avi as well?

I am just curious if different test discs were used on the 59avi than with the 79avi could this change the outcome of the tests? If Pioneer did offer a firmware upgrade is that something that has to be done at a Pioneer repair facility?

Thanks, Bill

Hey Bill

The only test I did on the 79 that wasn't done on the 59 was the AVIA Pro cadence test. And the only reason I did that was to see how the player would do with the vertical resolution wedge. The 79 was graded on the exact same scale and with the exact same material as the 59, I used the AP discs just to dig a bit deeper into the problems I found.

The component outputs were tested and the results are in that review. They were essentially no different, except the video levels were a bit off. If you look at the results you'll see the measurements for component.

Anyway, as far as the review is concerned, actually I thought it was very fair
Were you expecting it not to be fair?

I don't think that anything in Kris' previous reviews/benchmark reports would lead anyone to believe he wasn't consistantly fair...

-Terry

Thanks for the effort Kris. :)

Please keep us posted on any software updates for the 79avi. I hope Pioneer can fix these 79avi issues as they did when you brought the 59avi issues to their attention.

Thanks for the effort Kris. :)

Please keep us posted on any software updates for the 79avi. I hope Pioneer can fix these 79avi issues as they did when you brought the 59avi issues to their attention.


Did Pioneer actually do fixes for the 59avi? I know my model seems to have a later firmware. Does the firmware actually have major fixes or just small stuff no one can often even identify? Just curious :confused:

Did Pioneer actually do fixes for the 59avi? I know my model seems to have a later firmware. Does the firmware actually have major fixes or just small stuff no one can often even identify? Just curious :confused:

If I recall correctly, the 59avi had a software update that solved a couple of issues such as Y/C error.

Maybe Kris could go into greater detail as the specifics have long since been removed from the Benchmark review of the 59avi.

None of the 59AVi firmware revs fixed the Y/C delay issue. Kris tested an early unit and a much later one. No one actually knows what any of the changes were in any of the revisions.


Kris- Thanks for the 79AVi review, and the comparisons to the 59AVi. :) Guess I'll be funneling the $$ I had to upgrade from my 59AVi to the 79AVi, to a better display. :D

Kris - Yet another thanks for the fine effort at your site and here.

The possibility of the issues effecting my day to day needs are quite low, so I keep these failed test points in perspective.

Given the life span of these units for many of us, it's easy to keep an eye on the next contestant. Looking forward to the next round ;)

E

To help comparing Kris findings about the 79avi with the 59avi, wich he says he didn't have on hand anymore, i did some tests on the 59avi yesterday with two moving resolution patterns, alternatly encoded progressively and interlaced. The second pattern has some high detail vertical lines added, to coarse things up a bit.

The results mirror exactly my findings on the 59avi's behaviour on high vertical detail content with the "Gladiator" scene(the Gladiator scene gives the same results as the high vertical detail pattern):

On the progressively encoded pattern
- on "auto1" the player works fine with normal and high vertical detail patterns
- on "auto2" the player needs half a second to lock on and then stays in film mode on the normal pattern, it looses film-mode on the high detail pattern

On the interlaced pattern
- on "auto1" the player needs half a second to lock on, then holds film-mode in the normal pattern. It looses film-mode in the high detail pattern
- on "auto2" the player does the same as in "auto1"

Hope it helps :)

To help comparing Kris findings about the 79avi with the 59avi, wich he says he didn't have on hand anymore, i did some tests on the 59avi yesterday with two moving resolution patterns, alternatly encoded progressively and interlaced. The second pattern has some high detail vertical lines added, to coarse things up a bit.

The results mirror exactly my findings on the 59avi's behaviour on high vertical detail content with the "Gladiator" scene(the Gladiator scene gives the same results as the high vertical detail pattern):

On the progressively encoded pattern
- on "auto1" the player works fine with normal and high vertical detail patterns
- on "auto2" the player needs half a second to lock on and then stays in film mode on the normal pattern, it looses film-mode on the high detail pattern

On the interlaced pattern
- on "auto1" the player needs half a second to lock on, then holds film-mode in the normal pattern. It looses film-mode in the high detail pattern
- on "auto2" the player does the same as in "auto1"

Hope it helps :)

I watched that scene in Gladiator with my 59 and I see no problems with the rooftops. I use AUTO 2 mode. Maybe I don't know what to look for. I have not watched it with the display on so that I could see if it is losing its lock on film mode. I will try to remember to do that.

The scene in question is right after Caesar plays with the figurines in the arena, about 62 minutes running time, when there is an aerial take of several houses and the Coliseum. Immediately after the scene switches from the figurines to the aerial in Rome, look for the first house on the right bottom side and you can see what looks like a "zebra pattern/rainbow/whatever" artifacts on the roof. I used 3 different players with 3 different technologies and all produced the same artifacts.

Sergio

That's the one I thought it was. I'll try to have another look at it tonight. I looked at it several times last week and didn't notice anything. Might be my untrained eye.. I wonder if it is display dependent? I have an SXRD which has to convert anything I send it to 1080P.

I'm selling my 79avi and buying an Xbox 360 because the Xbox is a much better player and it can do games too!

I'm selling my 79avi and buying an Xbox 360 because the Xbox is a much better player and it can do games too!

Good luck but you probably will pay more for the XBOX360 than the Pio 74.

Sergio

Jim

It is not display dependent. I can see it with my plasma and the Mitsu 73927.
Sergio

It is not display dependent. I can see it with my plasma and the Mitsu 73927.

While I would agree that this artifact is not display dependent, it can be more noticeable on some display types than others. My experiece with the SXRD displays would tell me these would be the smoothest in this type of material. Plasma and DLP (the Mits in this case) would be among the worst.

Jim

It is not display dependent. I can see it with my plasma and the Mitsu 73927.
Sergio

Ok. I watched the rooftop scene again and I did see the zebra/moire on the rooftop. However, I rewound the back thru until just before the scene where the model of the colliseum is four times and let it play through, and it never showed up again. It only showed up on the first pass. The # sign never unlocked in any of the attempts. Why would it only show up once. This is the second time that I have looked for it and I did not see it the first time... Btw, I never saw any problems with the step of the model colliseum...

HI,

Has anyone used the pure audio mode? Is there any setup needed? I only find a very little blurb in the manual about it and no explanation about is setup etc.

God bless...

Mark

Has anyone used the pure audio mode? Is there any setup needed? I only find a very little blurb in the manual about it and no explanation about is setup etc.
I use it all the time when listening to CD and DVD-A discs (which I've been doing a lot more lately. this player is just so pleasant to hear). I can't hear the difference between with or without, but that may just be a limitation of my ancient receiver.

The only setup that is needed is to have the analog output connected to the 5.1 analog jacks of your receiver. The disc must be stopped to enable the mode. But if you push the display button after the disc has started you can temporarily disable the Pure Audio mode (press display 2 more times to once again disable the display).

Ok. I watched the rooftop scene again and I did see the zebra/moire on the rooftop. However, I rewound the back thru until just before the scene where the model of the colliseum is four times and let it play through, and it never showed up again. It only showed up on the first pass. The # sign never unlocked in any of the attempts. Why would it only show up once. This is the second time that I have looked for it and I did not see it the first time... Btw, I never saw any problems with the step of the model colliseum...


Thanks. You just confirmed what I was guessing. The 59 also shows the same artifacts in our "real world". I also played with my 79 several times using the same scene and the results were diffrent with different settings and using rewind and play/pause and play and slow motion. It looks like something detects some flag under certain circunstances.

I really don't know if the 59 performs better than the 79 but I'm glad that the mith of the only real case (Gladiator) that could confirm Kris findings is no longer an evidence that the 79 is an inferior player. Since I don't watch cadence tests I will continue to enjoy the amazing high quality picture on my 73" TV.

Sergio

For a DLP TV is it more appropriate to set the IRE at 0 or 7.5?

For a DLP TV is it more appropriate to set the IRE at 0 or 7.5?

I prefer 0. 7.5 makes the black too soft on my Mitsubishi 73927.

Sergio

Thanks. You just confirmed what I was guessing. The 59 also shows the same artifacts in our "real world". I also played with my 79 several times using the same scene and the results were diffrent with different settings and using rewind and play/pause and play and slow motion. It looks like something detects some flag under certain circunstances.

I really don't know if the 59 performs better than the 79 but I'm glad that the mith of the only real case (Gladiator) that could confirm Kris findings is no longer an evidence that the 79 is an inferior player. Since I don't watch cadence tests I will continue to enjoy the amazing high quality picture on my 73" TV.

Sergio
I don't want to speak for Kris, but I think he stated that the problems he found were 79 specific, and different from what can be seen with the 59 or any other player he tested so far.

The 59 may have issues with the high detail aspect of the Gladiator scene but it does not show the same artifacts as the 79AVi in regards to the new issues. There are lots of players that have issues with the Gladiator sequence in regards to high detail, that is why we use it on occasion, but I am talking about completely different things here.

When I get back home I will see if my friend still has his 59 and I will test it. If not, I will try to sometime soon. Robert George has one now and I may be out his way sometime early this year so I can do it then.

Thanks Slimoli. :)

I don't want to speak for Kris, but I think he stated that the problems he found were 79 specific, and different from what can be seen with the 59 or any other player he tested so far.

I am just trying to figure what is the effect of Kris findings in the "real world". So far the only real flaw that was confirmed by many people here is this Gladiator scene.

I found a problem with the 79 that looks really bad and maybe Kris can comment on this:

-When linked through HDMI we can adjust the HDMI DETAIL on video adjust. Anything higher than zero will produce edge enhancement and if we leave at zero the clayface is very visible. Try the scene right next to the famous figurines/Rome/Coliseum, when the senators are chatting and there is a pyramid on the background. With HDMI DETAIL at zero, the pyramid looks like clay dough,completely washed. Set the HDMI DETAIL to 1/8 and it starts to look like a pile of stones (as it should) but only if you set it higher than the middle you can get a real pyramid. With HDMI DETAIL at the middle point or higher there will be A LOT of EE, just look close to the faces and you can see that it looks very bad. I set my HDMI DETAIL very close to zero to avoid EE but it is not enough to show fine details.

Sergio

Slimoli:

I have seen this as well. Now, go to the race track scene and make the same adjustments. All the way to the left and the player can't lock on the correct mode and drops in and out and you see the banding pattern. At the middle setting or to the right and it looks fine. Next, go to the cadence detection scene of the coffee diner and look at the coffee mug with the HDMI detail setting and the 79 will fail this if set all the way to the left but will pass if set to the middle or right. There seems to be some sort of interaction going on here that screws up the cadence detection or causes high detail problems? I wonder if Kris turned this all the way to the right when he tested this player?

Also, I am running HDMI out at 480i out to the external processor. So, I don't know why the HDMI detail setting would make a diference in how my external scaler de-interlaces the different cadences and modes? Kris what is going on here?

Tonight I'll look at my 59 and see what it does. I still want to know if this is what is tripping up the 79 tests?

This thing is too smart for it's own good.

I left all of the video enhancements in their default settings for our tests. I don't like NR or sharpness filters as they never offer anything to me (the exception may be HQV's NR if used in the 1 setting with problem child DVDs). When I get back home I will take a look at the stuff brought up here, but that won't be until mid to late month at the earliest.

Slimoli:

I have seen this as well. Now, go to the race track scene and make the same adjustments. All the way to the left and the player can't lock on the correct mode and drops in and out and you see the banding pattern. At the middle setting or to the right and it looks fine. Next, go to the cadence detection scene of the coffee diner and look at the coffee mug with the HDMI detail setting and the 79 will fail this if set all the way to the left but will pass if set to the middle or right. There seems to be some sort of interaction going on here that screws up the cadence detection or causes high detail problems? I wonder if Kris turned this all the way to the right when he tested this player?

Also, I am running HDMI out at 480i out to the external processor. So, I don't know why the HDMI detail setting would make a diference in how my external scaler de-interlaces the different cadences and modes? Kris what is going on here?

Tonight I'll look at my 59 and see what it does. I still want to know if this is what is tripping up the 79 tests?


I get this banding on my 59avi, with the HQV disc in the racetrack scene as well, with all the different modes tried, including Auto 2, but out of all the tests on the HQV disc this seemed to be the one big failure I saw. It made me wonder if I had some settings wrong as everything else went so well.

The HQV disc uses a different cadence for the high detail test than the original Super Speedway DVD that we have used for years now. So I still use the original test, not the HQV disc. So when the 59AVi was tested, the HQV disc wasn't used (in fact, it wasn't even out yet).

The HQV disc uses a different cadence for the high detail test than the original Super Speedway DVD that we have used for years now. So I still use the original test, not the HQV disc. So when the 59AVi was tested, the HQV disc wasn't used (in fact, it wasn't even out yet).

Kris:

Do you know why I get banding if the HDMI detail is set to the right on the raceway in HQV? And, why does it go away when set to the middle?

Also, why do I have trouble with the diner scene when the HDMI detail is set to the left (480i to external processor)? Why would this make a difference to my external de-interlacer?

Where did you set the HDMI detail when you tested the 79 and what difference would this make?

Rick

I left all of the video enhancements in their default settings for our tests. I don't like NR or sharpness filters as they never offer anything to me (the exception may be HQV's NR if used in the 1 setting with problem child DVDs). When I get back home I will take a look at the stuff brought up here, but that won't be until mid to late month at the earliest.
Kris:

I just saw this post of your's. I understand you can't look into this now.

I turn every sharpness and NR off also. But, the HDMI sharpness in my specific circumstance helps immensely with just about every HQV test. When you get back I would be interested in what you think is going on. I don't understand enough about this setting to account for what I am seeing.

By the way, you live in my general neighborhood. When in Seattle (East side) you are welcome to come over and see what I'm up to with my HT.

Thanks,

Rick

Kris, thanks for your informative review. Your reviews are much more valuable than the magazines at the book store where everything they review is a little better than what they reviewed last month.

HI,

Has anyone used the pure audio mode? Is there any setup needed? I only find a very little blurb in the manual about it and no explanation about is setup etc.

God bless...

Mark

Mark,

Injector is correct in his assessment of Pure Audio. It disables the video and digital section of the player. Therefore the DAC's of the player are used instead of the receiver/processor. When using equipment with inferior DAC's there may be a benefit in using analog connections with Pure Audio enabled.

Be careful though...on my old system (A DV-05 with a Denon AVR-3200) I found the digital connection to be consistently superior to analog even with Pure Audio engaged. Try both and let us know which one sounds better to your ears.

Jim Z

Kris:

Do you know why I get banding if the HDMI detail is set to the right on the raceway in HQV? And, why does it go away when set to the middle?

Also, why do I have trouble with the diner scene when the HDMI detail is set to the left (480i to external processor)? Why would this make a difference to my external de-interlacer?

Where did you set the HDMI detail when you tested the 79 and what difference would this make?

Rick

Hey Rick

You have to remember that a detail adjustment is usually either adding or subtracting information from the source signal. When you turn it up you are actually adding false information into the video stream and the video processor is probably tripping up on it. Again, this is why I don't mess with this stuff.

Hey Rick

You have to remember that a detail adjustment is usually either adding or subtracting information from the source signal. When you turn it up you are actually adding false information into the video stream and the video processor is probably tripping up on it. Again, this is why I don't mess with this stuff.

Kris:

It makes me wonder how much processing is going on after the signal leaves the MPEG decoder in the 79 (or 59), when set to 480i. It would be nice if pioneer left it alone so my external processor (DVP1080) could take care of things without the 79 getting in the way. I suspect that just because all NR and sharpness settings are set to zero, something is probably being processed. It would be nice to have a transport that would output pure MPEG to my processor and also had an audio section that was top-notch. So far, the 59 seems to be the closest I know of. Know of anything that would work with my external processor that also has great audio?

Rick

Having 480i via HDMI be "adjustable" is scary and unnecessary. How do you know the neutral settings are neutral? This is where SDI mods are nice. You want MPEG decoder output? You got it. :)

larry

I'm with Larry on this one, SDI is usually your best bet. There is really no other way to be absolutely sure.

Excuse my ignorance, but is there an SDI mod. that outputs via HDMI or they some other digital connection? :confused:

In other words can SDI's only be connected to a scaler that has a similar input or is there ever a possibility to connect it directly to a good PDP input?

TIA

shane

Shane,
SDI uses a separate output - IIRC a BNC type coax connector and cable. The mod usually connects directly to the output pins of the MPEG decoder and contain a little circuitry for the transmission of the data. External scalers have supported SDI input for quite a while. Before DVI/HDMI it was "the" digital video connection. However, SDI is not a "consumer" connection. With properly implemented HDMI you don't need SDI.

larry

I am just trying to figure what is the effect of Kris findings in the "real world". So far the only real flaw that was confirmed by many people here is this Gladiator scene.

I found a problem with the 79 that looks really bad and maybe Kris can comment on this:

-When linked through HDMI we can adjust the HDMI DETAIL on video adjust. Anything higher than zero will produce edge enhancement and if we leave at zero the clayface is very visible. Try the scene right next to the famous figurines/Rome/Coliseum, when the senators are chatting and there is a pyramid on the background. With HDMI DETAIL at zero, the pyramid looks like clay dough,completely washed. Set the HDMI DETAIL to 1/8 and it starts to look like a pile of stones (as it should) but only if you set it higher than the middle you can get a real pyramid. With HDMI DETAIL at the middle point or higher there will be A LOT of EE, just look close to the faces and you can see that it looks very bad. I set my HDMI DETAIL very close to zero to avoid EE but it is not enough to show fine details.

Sergio

I know this thread has moved into the technical direction and some interesting information is being exchanged. For those interested, I found a recent "real world" review from "What Hifi", a British magazine sold at Barnes and Noble. I take ALL reviews/opinions with a grain of salt but if you read "What Hifi" regularly, they will definately rip a product so in terms of credibility, I don't know what else to say. They did a group test with the Denon 2910, Marantz 7600, Arcam DV78, Yamaha 2500 and the Pioneer 79 and declared the Pioneer the best of the group. Not for audio, however, but video-wise they felt it was the best in the class and will be pitting it against pricier units in their next magazine. They like the Denon and the Yamaha to some degree, they felt the Marantz had a soft picture. Again, far from the kind of technicality many are interested in here but nevertheless, there may be some people buzzing around that may value a more simplified analysis of where this player stands in a "normal" viewing scenario, check it out if you get a chance.

I haven't seen the Marantz yet but from that group I would probably agree with them on overall picture quality.

I've purchased one of these before the report from Kris D. Well, I talked to Kimberly from the service and technical support dept. about the problems outlined with unit. She informed me that NO firmware or service updates are going to done. Told this after telling her their player does not even matchup to a XBOX 360 as far as noted problems. Her attitude was sounds like you're SOL. Only option was to return the player and get different model(59AVi).
Sounds pretty pathetic to me for an Elite product. So I haven't decided yet what to do. Am awaiting response from dealer on an exchange for the 59avi. Please don't suggest a Denon player. Have been through a 2900(DOA) 2910 (total garbage compared even to the 79AVI), Samsungs and even a Sony 975(much better picture quality than the 2910,not even close)returned this due to tray lockups. So much for mid to high end units. To me a $1000.00 unit is high end. Maybe should just keep using the DVP-NC555ES until this problem is sorted out.

I'm with Larry on this one, SDI is usually your best bet. There is really no other way to be absolutely sure.

No SDI on the Faroudja so SDI is not an option. And, I need HDCP (which is not in SDI) or I can't get a handshake from the source DVD all the way to the display. SDI is a legacy output format in my world.

Back to HDMI. So far the 59 and 79 are the best I know of yet.

Last night I compaired the audio from the 59 vs the 79 and to me the 79 is much better. Enough so, that I am probably going to keep the 79 and sell the 59 because I am not sure I can tell the difference in PQ.

I also ran the two players into a Gefen HDMI splitter and into my Faroudja DVP1080 and out to a G70 CRT displayed on a 110" Stewert StudioTek 130 Screen. I was able to switch back and forth and A/B the results of the QVC test disc. Remember that I am running 480i to the processor which means the 59 and the 79 are not de-interlacing. I could not tell the difference on any of the tests between the 59 and the 79 on 480i output.

I switched both players to 480p and ran through the QVC disc again and could not tell any difference between the two players. But again, they are playing into the Faroudja which may be hiding a few warts on both players, like the CUE, as Faroudja filters for it.

This weekend I am going to A/B some other material and if I get to it I'll take the Faroudja out of the loop and see what they look like at 720p on the 110" screen, which is pretty revealing.

I can already tell you though, that I am going to have a hard time telling much difference if any on any of the DVDs I compaire this weekend. I still really like the audio on this player much better than the 59 and in most real world viewing circumstances I am not sure if I can tell the difference between these two players.

More after this weekend, don't run out and sell your 79 yet. It may end up being a better all around unit for all practical purposes. And, Kris never said it was a bad player, just screwed-up on things that Pioneer should have gotten right. They probably have their A-team over at BD and the Junior Varsity took over the SD Disc player dept.

Rick

SDI is only useful with an external scaler, especially if the display is not HDCP compatible. With SDI input from a DVD player, they can output any resolution via component, DVI, or HDMI with no HDCP. (I think HDCP comes for free with HDMI output and input). Also remember, HDCP is source enabled. The target (display) does not enforce (ask for) HDCP.

larry

You could look at the Arcam unit. It doesn't offer the universal aspect of the 79AVi but it does offer 480i over HDMI. Just FYI. The new Marantz 9600 is also an option and will probably be more in line with the 79AVi if not a bit better (unless they screwed something up!)

You have to remember that a detail adjustment is usually either adding or subtracting information from the source signal. When you turn it up you are actually adding false information into the video stream and the video processor is probably tripping up on it. Again, this is why I don't mess with this stuff.

Pioneer RPTVs have the DETAIL setting in the service menus. The Pioneer ISF gurus generally run it at the maximum setting, as I do, providing all other sharpness controls are set properly. So the setting in the DVD player needs investigation IMO, as I indicated a year ago in the DV-59 thread.

I hear a funny ringing noise in my head already :p

I know this thread has moved into the technical direction and some interesting information is being exchanged. For those interested, I found a recent "real world" review from "What Hifi", a British magazine sold at Barnes and Noble. I take ALL reviews/opinions with a grain of salt but if you read "What Hifi" regularly, they will definately rip a product so in terms of credibility, I don't know what else to say. They did a group test with the Denon 2910, Marantz 7600, Arcam DV78, Yamaha 2500 and the Pioneer 79 and declared the Pioneer the best of the group. Not for audio, however, but video-wise they felt it was the best in the class and will be pitting it against pricier units in their next magazine. They like the Denon and the Yamaha to some degree, they felt the Marantz had a soft picture. Again, far from the kind of technicality many are interested in here but nevertheless, there may be some people buzzing around that may value a more simplified analysis of where this player stands in a "normal" viewing scenario, check it out if you get a chance.

Hmm... wonder if they're planning a test disc battle next? ;)

-bd

Hmm... wonder if they're planning a test disc battle next? ;)

-bd

My attention has been drawn to a heated power cord debate over in an audio thread, these guys with the test discs are actually starting to look sane.

I Not for audio, however, but video-wise they felt it was the best in the class .

Where did they rank the Pioneer on the audio side?
From that group I would suspect it would be second , behind the Arcam.

They said the Arcam was the best for audio then the Marantz but didn't really give an order between the Yamaha, Denon and Pioneer. They really didn't have anything positive to say about the Pioneer's audio but again, the video got top marks.

They said the Arcam was the best for audio then the Marantz but didn't really give an order between the Yamaha, Denon and Pioneer. They really didn't have anything positive to say about the Pioneer's audio but again, the video got top marks.


Interesting.

When I compared the Marantz and Pioneer for audio I thought the latter was better but I realize that's a subjective opinion.
Picture wise I couldn't tell a difference but I was focusing more on the audio.
Here in Canada there is $200 price difference, the 79 being higher.

This was a fairly short, unscientific, comparison on my part.

As the 79AVi did not perform well in the benckmark, are you guys still happy with 79AVi?

As the 79AVi did not perform well in the benckmark, are you guys still happy with 79AVi?

No. I hate it. I threw it into the street in a fit of rage after reading the Secrets review. It sucks. ;)

-bd

Has anyone gotten the region-free Pronto code to take on the 79AVi? I received my unit today, and thus far, I'm unable to get the remote hack to work.