As the 79AVi did not perform well in the benckmark, are you guys still happy with 79AVi?

No...Suddenly it's a piece of crap..... Must.......hate.....79avi......must ......hate...

;)

i threw mine in the toilet, tried to flush it down but to no avail. i then threw it in the bathtub and let it go down the drain. yesssssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm probably going to sell mine...anyone want it? Half of the reason is because I was hoping for better performance, but half of it is I need the money (gf moved out and I need to pay the whole mortgage by myself! :eek: ).

As the 79AVi did not perform well in the benckmark, are you guys still happy with 79AVi?

I use it now for freeweights...I am working on my pecks.

No...of course I am still happy, my ultimate goal of using it with a VP-30 is still on track. I bet that the final setup will be the most cost effective solution for digital high end audio/video on the market. LEVESQUE has already praised this combo in this thread. 480i over HDMI, great sound (with i-link), 10 bit color, etc. I can't do that until I spend much, much more...ask Kris. The only other player I would consider is a Marantz for this for much more...but they are essentially Pioneer on the video.

Hi,

I a doing the same thing with my 79 and Lumagen HDP and it works great as well. And the best part is now when the HQV and Genum based scalers come out, I will be ready to allow them to do their vastly improved deinterlacing!

Plus, for audio, this is a better player than the denon 2900, 5900, 3910

God bless...

Mark

I believe someone mentioned way back in this thread that the 59 did not pass blacker than back when using the 0 IRE setup. Though they may have only been speaking of the HDMI interface. I have confirmed that the 79 passes BtB on the analog component outputs with either the 0 or 7.5 IRE black setup settings.

I settled on the 7.5 because is matches my other component devices, and I only have one set if inputs.

The other settings I ended up using with my 480i analog television:

Both the high and mid sharpness all the way to soft. The detail setting to off (even though I can't see any changes at either extreme). I also turned the luma and chroma noise reduction all the way down--I like to see what is on the disc warts and all. Everything else, white, black, gamma, color settings, and Y/C delay all are set to the middle.

I will note that I see *no* Y/C delay errors on my television. But I also noted that if there was a problem, Pioneer's corrections do seem too course to do any good.

As the 79AVi did not perform well in the benckmark, are you guys still happy with 79AVi?

Yes I am very happy with the 79avi. With no disrespect to Kris and his very through review I am not to concerned about the test results. Maybe I'm not as critical as some but I find the 79avi to have excellent PQ and SQ. I have not seen any issues with the DVDs I have watched.

Bill

I will note that I see *no* Y/C delay errors on my television. But I also noted that if there was a problem, Pioneer's corrections do seem too course to do any good.

Did you check this with AVIA or some other Y/C timing test pattern?

Did you check this with AVIA or some other Y/C timing test pattern?
Yes, the Avia pattern.

*Edit* Let me restate that I am running at 480i over the analog interface. So that may make a difference. Also analog scan lines do not have hard fast pixel boundries. But pressing my nose to the screen while viewing the Avia Y/C Delay pattern shows the edges of the chroma box even with the edges of the luma box on the '0' line.

Can someone help an amateur in some settings. I have the 79 hooked up to a Pioneer PRO 930 plasma via HDMI, Digital audio to a Rotel receiver and analog audio for the CD function. I'm having a heck of a time figuring out the diffrent resolutions and which work best.

Thanks
John

Let me restate that I am running at 480i over the analog interface. So that may make a difference.

Yes it does. Most players get the problem in progressive scan mode only. I've not owned one perfect since my good old Sony 9000ES. :(

Can someone help an amateur in some settings. I have the 79 hooked up to a Pioneer PRO 930 plasma via HDMI, Digital audio to a Rotel receiver and analog audio for the CD function. I'm having a heck of a time figuring out the diffrent resolutions and which work best.

Thanks
John


Set the output of the 79 to 480i direct (HDMI). Let the 930 do the scaling to it's NR.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6637796#post6637796



marty

I spoke to a local dealer today who sells Denon.
I know him well and he will sell me the 3910 for the same price the Pioneer dealers sell the 79 for.
Assuming for a moment that MB is not an issue, which way should I go?

Audio (hi-rez through analog outputs) is as important as video to me.

I spoke to a local dealer today who sells Denon.
I know him well and he will sell me the 3910 for the same price the Pioneer dealers sell the 79 for.
Assuming for a moment that MB is not an issue, which way should I go?

Audio (hi-rez through analog outputs) is as important as video to me.

Depends who you ask....the DVD players in this class of player are really close, they both offer excellent pictures and are well made. In fact, you will not notice major differences unless you are studying the picture and know what to look for. If you are well trained in terms of looking for subtle "flaws" and consider the Secrets Benchmark the main basis for choosing a DVD player, you may want to go the Denon route. If you consider build, features, ease of operation and reliability, maybe the Pioneer will get the edge. If you are new to a DVD player of this caliber, you should be pleased with either one.

I spoke to a local dealer today who sells Denon.
I know him well and he will sell me the 3910 for the same price the Pioneer dealers sell the 79 for.
Assuming for a moment that MB is not an issue, which way should I go?

Audio (hi-rez through analog outputs) is as important as video to me.
That's some discount on the 3910. As soldonandy said, it's just a matter of personal preference. You may want to throw the 59ai into the mix as well. Can you demo them and see which you like best for both video and audio? What is your display? If you get MB, then it's a no-brainer (you have to go Pioneer), but if you don't, I'd go with the Denon (a steal at that price). But I agree with the statement that they are all pretty close. I have the 3910 matched up with a DLP, and it looks almost HD, and the audio (using analog outs) sounds as good as my dedicated Rotel CD player, so I'm very happy with it.

My display is a Hitachi 50VS810.

I tried a Panasonic 77 for a couple of weeks and thought I saw MB.
But going back to my old player, a Toshiba SD-2109, I still see artifacts that resemble MB (or what I assume MB looks like).

The Pioneer dealer also sells the 3910. He still has a Hitachi VS810 on display (a 60").
I think I'll ask him to hook up both units to the Hitachi and go from there.

Just have to figure what discs to take.....

"Just have to figure what discs to take..... "

No-brainer...Gladiator!

Kris:

I spent the day looking at the 79 and I have to say that I am very happy with it.

I wonder if the reason you had problems with the flying wedge pattern has more to due with the high detail of this test combined with your test settings. Let me explain. When I use HDMI and set the HDMI detail to the left, which is detail "off." I get bad cadence test results. If I set it up one level all is well. It will even trip up my external Faroudja when set "off."

If you look carefully at this HDMI setting you will see that it is a double sided filter. When it is set to the left to the "soft" setting it evokes a huge blur filter and I mean huge. When set to the right to the "fine" setting it applies edge enhancement.

I think, knowing your stated dislike for NR and Sharpness filters, you turned this stuff to the right thinking you were getting it out of the way. But, in the case of the HDMI detail setting, you were applying a huge blur filter which caused the Pioneer deinterlacing's cadence detection to get tripped up. It sure trips up my Faroudja.

Can anyone like Dale Adams comment on this? Also, can anyone else run the Avia Pro moving wedge cadence test. This is a high detail cadence test. Could it be falsely failed if the deinterlacer can't lock on to the cadence because of severe detail filtering?

I spent the day watching a lot of DVDs and this 79 is fantastic. And, the audio is just superb. Another thing I like is that Pioneer fixed the poor remote signal. The 79 will respond to the remote from further away and further off axis.

Kris and the other experts, please don't clobber me too badly on this. Or, as Art would say, "Be gentle."

Rick

Hi The Rang,

Keep in mind that the problems Kris found are not present w/480i output, so if you buy the 79 now, you can use that output to an external scaler when the new chips (HQV and Genum) hit the street. The 3910 is a loss on that front, you are stuck with the deinterlacer in it.

Rick,
I think a big part of what you said depends on where in the video processing "stream" do the HDMI PQ controls come into play. You have MPEG decode, deinterlace, scale, output. Anywhere after MPEG decode would be a good guess, maybe multiple places. From reading their "marketing blurb" it appears there may be filtering after MPEG decode. How many HDMI PQ controls affect 480i output?

larry

Hello all,

While this may be my first post Im familiar with this thread. It is what I used to make the decision to buy the 79. I found a display/return unit at a price I coulnt ignore. For all its "issues", for the price I doubt I could find a better player.
Im replacing a 200 disk Sony(480i over component) and a Samsung 941(for hi-rez audio only).
My display is a panny 900 PJ receiving component signal thru the Yamaha 2500 REC. My question is should I just run component from the 79 to the receiver or should I run a separate HDMI cable from the 79 to the PJ. Will the picture through HDMI be that much better? Also, if I do run the digital connection should I use 480i output or something else? And while Im at it, the audio. Since I dont have i-LINK what is the best way to get the most from the player in terms of sound quality?
Ive had it for a week now but have not had a chance to hook'er up yet. Its killin me Smalls. Maybe this weekend I will make some time.

Hi Kaptain Karl,

I would definatly go with HDMI to the pj. It is my experience that any time there is another device in the video chain, you loose signal integrity and gain noise. (The only device I would ever put in line is a good video scaler) I would guess you will get a nice bump in sharpness, detail and more vivid color once you get the HDMI hooked up straight to the pj.

Did you get my private messages?

God bless...

Mark

Keep in mind that the problems Kris found are not present w/480i output, so if you buy the 79 now, you can use that output to an external scaler when the new chips (HQV and Genum) hit the street. The 3910 is a loss on that front, you are stuck with the deinterlacer in it.

Hi htguy1,

Good points. I don't have any plans to add an outboard scaler. Once I get the DVD player that's it. I'd likley be usinh HDMI to the TV from whichever machine I choose. Is the deinterlacer in the Denon OK, other than MB of course?
The HDCD on the Denon as attractive but the MB really scares me.

HI,

The MB on the 3910 is supposed to be reduced from the level the 5900 had in it. Macro Blocking effects really dark scenes and it is annoying. I am personally a big, big fan of the dv79. I know its audio is better than the 3910, but then it has the deinterlacing bug. One other thought, Hd disk formats will soon be out. They will run 1080i but many new sets are coming out with 1080p capability and will eventually all have much better deinterlacers than either the 3910 or 79, so if you get the 79, you can send pure 480i out to a display you may one day buy and let it do the deinterlacing and scaling. Or you could get into CRT and need a external scaler some day :)

God bless...

Mark

I'm using the 79 with a Panny 900 over HDMI and the picture is awesome. I'm running a 50ft cable, so I never tried component (don't have a 50ft component cable) but I can tell you HDMI gives a great picture.

jcg

Hello all,

While this may be my first post Im familiar with this thread. It is what I used to make the decision to buy the 79. I found a display/return unit at a price I coulnt ignore. For all its "issues", for the price I doubt I could find a better player.
Im replacing a 200 disk Sony(480i over component) and a Samsung 941(for hi-rez audio only).
My display is a panny 900 PJ receiving component signal thru the Yamaha 2500 REC. My question is should I just run component from the 79 to the receiver or should I run a separate HDMI cable from the 79 to the PJ. Will the picture through HDMI be that much better? Also, if I do run the digital connection should I use 480i output or something else? And while Im at it, the audio. Since I dont have i-LINK what is the best way to get the most from the player in terms of sound quality?
Ive had it for a week now but have not had a chance to hook'er up yet. Its killin me Smalls. Maybe this weekend I will make some time.

Yes, got it.

The setup I have in the family room has a single 9M long component cable running from the tv stand with my Tosh 43" and all the gear in it, underneath the coffee table, underneath the couch and then to a tall narrow table with the PJ on it right behind the couch. I move the table into position when we watch the PJ. I would need an HDMI to HDMI cable about 30ft. long. But then I would have 2 cables running along the floor!! My wife is wonderfully tolerant but that may not fly!

jcg,

How do you set the 79 for output to the panny over HDMI

Rick,
I think a big part of what you said depends on where in the video processing "stream" do the HDMI PQ controls come into play. You have MPEG decode, deinterlace, scale, output. Anywhere after MPEG decode would be a good guess, maybe multiple places. From reading their "marketing blurb" it appears there may be filtering after MPEG decode. How many HDMI PQ controls affect 480i output?

larry

Larry:

I think the HDMI detail comes before deinterlacing which is why it may be tripping up the cadence detection in the Pioneer on Kris' tests. I would like to see someone else validate this by running the Secrets tests with the detail set at the center position. This would eliminate the blur filter and I suspect the 79 might pass more cadence tests.

It would be nice to know what source they used for each cadence test. Didn't I see a description of the tests on their site somewhere?

Rick

Maybe I should be more specific and give an example:

Use the HQV Benchmark DVD and play the Film Cadence Test with the HDMI detail set all the way to the left and the 79 will fail every cadence. It does not matter if you let the 79 do the deinterlacing or if you use an outboard processor!

Next, run the test with the HDMI detail set up one notch from the left and it passes pretty much everything. I think this might be what tripped up the 79 in Kris' Secrets test. This 79 may be ok.

Hi htguy1,

Good points. I don't have any plans to add an outboard scaler. Once I get the DVD player that's it. I'd likley be usinh HDMI to the TV from whichever machine I choose. Is the deinterlacer in the Denon OK, other than MB of course?
The HDCD on the Denon as attractive but the MB really scares me.
Yes, the deinterlacer used in the 3910 is excellent (but prone to MB). MB, however, is very display dependent. I do not have any MB at all with my set-up. Make sure you have an agreement with your dealer, if you go with the 3910, that if you see MB, back it comes. Your old Tosh player does not have an MB problem, so you must be seeing other artifacts. If you did see MB with the Panny, then go with the Pioneer.

Kris:

The HDMI Detail is not a double sided filter it is not edge enhancement either. Put up Video Essentials Chapter 17-23. This is the high frequency sweep. The HDMI detail attenuates the high frequency as you lower the setting until the last position on the left. The last position seems to apply a brick wall filter at a little over 5.0 MHz.

So, why does a high frequency filter like this cause the deinterlacing circuitry to trip up? Anyone?

Rick

Hi,

I have been working on modifying the analog output of my 79 and let me just say if you do it right, it is amazing! There is a lot more detail and openess that can be drawn out of this player.

God bless...

Mark

Hi,

I have been working on modifying the analog output of my 79 and let me just say if you do it right, it is amazing! There is a lot more detail and openess that can be drawn out of this player.

God bless...

Mark

Talk to me! And what would you charge? ;) Always interested in getting better analog out SQ.

Maybe I should be more specific and give an example:

Use the HQV Benchmark DVD and play the Film Cadence Test with the HDMI detail set all the way to the left and the 79 will fail every cadence. It does not matter if you let the 79 do the deinterlacing or if you use an outboard processor!

Next, run the test with the HDMI detail set up one notch from the left and it passes pretty much everything. I think this might be what tripped up the 79 in Kris' Secrets test. This 79 may be ok. Wow. It appears they do it, but I would think it would be quite hard to pixel level stuff on half a frame. Do they deinterlace, process, and then reinterlace??

larry

Great find Rick! I hope to have my home theater done in about 2 weeks. Once I set up all of the equipment I will try your HDMI setting. Do you also have it set to Auto 2?

Great find Rick! I hope to have my home theater done in about 2 weeks. Once I set up all of the equipment I will try your HDMI setting. Do you also have it set to Auto 2?

Hi Mick.

Here's the deal. I set the HDMI detail to where it looks the best for what I'm looking at just not all the way to the left. There is no correct place for everyone's situation and tastes.

My point is that I would like someone who actually knows what these circuits really do, to check to see if the 79 will pass more of the Secret's test if set up one notch from left. Second, I would like someone who knows what is going on to please explain to me what this HDMI detail setting is all about. I find it fascinating, but I just don't have the background to figure it out and I would love to have someone explain it to me.

Now back to you. When you get everything set up, put on a dvd and pause on some cute girl's face. Next, move the HDMI detail all the way to the left and watch every pore on her face disappear and her whole face will look like someone airbrushed it. It is the exact same effect you get in Photoshop when you use the Blur filter called "Smart Blur."

I like the effect at one or two up from the left for some grainy films. It is kind of like the Mosquito processor. It does a great job with noise. But, I don't set it there for everything. For most dvd material I want it set one or two notches left of center. But, this is just me. Try it out and you decide. That is what is so much fun about all of this - you are the expert of you.

As far as Auto 2 goes, leave it on Auto 2. According to Kris this is the best.

Have fun with you new system and let us know what you find out.

Rick

I thought I would post my settings on my 79avi to see what people think, any thoughts would be helpful. I am connected via component directly to a Panasonic 42PWD6 plasma (no DVI blade). I set the Detail one click from the left as Rick Green had suggested, although his setting was HDMI Detail not sure if it would be the same with component. I calibrated the settings on my plasma with DVE with the below settings on the 79avi.

Prog. Motion: Slowest Setting
Pure Cinema: Auto2
YNR: Off
CNR: Off
Sharpness High: Two Clicks from Soft
Sharpness Mid: Two Clicks from soft
Detail: One Click from Left
White Level: Half Way
Black Level: Half Way
Black Set-up 7.5
Gamma: Half Way
Hue: Half Way
Chroma Level: Minimum
Chroma Delay: Minimum

It would be interesting if what Rick Green has found would change the outcome of the Secrets tests. The changing of Progressive Motion to the slowest setting helped with one of the first issues that Kris found maybe Rick's find will also be helpful. It just shows that sometimes tweaking the settings on a specfic component can be very helpful. I do not recall who found the Progressive Motion fix (Dale Adams maybe?) but if that person was not fooling around with settings it would have never been discovered.

Bill

re; hdmi detail setting
kris said he tests everything at default settings...hdmi detail default is mid position.

Prog. Motion: Slowest Setting
Pure Cinema: Auto2
YNR: Off
CNR: Off
Sharpness High: Two Clicks from Soft
Sharpness Mid: Two Clicks from soft
Detail: One Click from Left
White Level: Half Way
Black Level: Half Way
Black Set-up 7.5
Gamma: Half Way
Hue: Half Way
Chroma Level: Minimum
Chroma Delay: Minimum
I assume you are running at 480p then, rather than I who is limited to 480i on the component interface.

Was there a reason you picked the two clicks up for the sharpness controls? While not adding ringing there, I did notice the player does alter the timing of high contrast transitions at any level but full soft. If I were looking to firm up the edges I would go to one click at most. And the two controls seem to interact. If you bring the high sharpness up two or three clicks the mid sharpness with then grab the already sharpened lines and affect them more.

Also with the detail, can you notice any change in the picture as you move it? Try running it out to both extremes. It has 0 visible effect to me, I'm wondering if it is a vertical aperture control used when combining fields. If you have a sharpness pattern made of horizontal lines (rather than the usual vertical) try viewing that while moving the control. Same goes for people using the HDMI interface and the HDMI detail settings. Also could the HDMI folk also check to see if both detail settings are functional.

I'm again assuming for chroma delay by minimum you mean 0, which is in the middle. But why minimum on the chroma level? The player I had connected to my set before the 79 did not have a chroma level setting, I had configured my set's color decoder for proper display of the NTSC bars against that player. I verified the 79 passed the same color levels with the default middle setting on the chroma level. So I think that below the middle on chroma level is actually removing color information from the picture.

re; hdmi detail setting
kris said he tests everything at default settings...hdmi detail default is mid position.

I guess I don't understand that statement. Kris prides himself and the Secrets gang on testing the tweakability/flexibility of a unit; in fact, this subject of testing protocol (tweaking a unit to produce the best results vs testing out-of-the-box only) came up pretty aggressively in a Sony projector thread where a PJ review site owner was soundly criticized for his "Home Theater Mag" style of reviewing that involves little more than out-of-the-box subjective viewing opinions. Kris, OTOH, was one who stood up proudly for the value of testing and eval'ing a products full capabilities via tweaking, calibrating, tuning and proper setup. He went as far as saying that anything less is a waste of time.

Net/net, I believe that if Kris was told that the 79avi performed MUCH better with, for instance, it's HDMI detail setting at a non-default, he would do it, or at least relook the evaluation.

If anyone knows a dealer site where a 79avi can be bought with a 30 day return policy please PM me. I am evaling the 3910 and a Marantz DV9600 (shipping this week) via this policy. If the 79avi ties, it wins...easily.
Thx,
Ted

I assume you are running at 480p then, rather than I who is limited to 480i on the component interface.

Was there a reason you picked the two clicks up for the sharpness controls? While not adding ringing there, I did notice the player does alter the timing of high contrast transitions at any level but full soft. If I were looking to firm up the edges I would go to one click at most. And the two controls seem to interact. If you bring the high sharpness up two or three clicks the mid sharpness with then grab the already sharpened lines and affect them more.

Also with the detail, can you notice any change in the picture as you move it? Try running it out to both extremes. It has 0 visible effect to me, I'm wondering if it is a vertical aperture control used when combining fields. If you have a sharpness pattern made of horizontal lines (rather than the usual vertical) try viewing that while moving the control. Same goes for people using the HDMI interface and the HDMI detail settings. Also could the HDMI folk also check to see if both detail settings are functional.

I'm again assuming for chroma delay by minimum you mean 0, which is in the middle. But why minimum on the chroma level? The player I had connected to my set before the 79 did not have a chroma level setting, I had configured my set's color decoder for proper display of the NTSC bars against that player. I verified the 79 passed the same color levels with the default middle setting on the chroma level. So I think that below the middle on chroma level is actually removing color information from the picture.

Yes at 480p, I will try your suggestions later if I get a chance before the Game. I have the Chroma level at the lowest setting but will try at the middle setting then check the color level with DVE.

Thanks for your input, Bill

If anyone knows a dealer site where a 79avi can be bought with a 30 day return policy please PM me. I am evaling the 3910 and a Marantz DV9600 (shipping this week) via this policy. If the 79avi ties, it wins...easily.
Thx,
Ted

The only one I know of, and I would ask to be sure before the purchase to be safe, is Best Buy stores with a Magnolia Hi Fi in them.

Hi guys,

My posts on this player have pretty much concerned the audio side of the player via I-Link with my 74TXVi receiver. I have been very pleased with the results. I thought, though, I would chime in on the video side. This is my first attempt at such a thing so go easy...but constructive feedback is appreciated.

My display is a 2002 51" Hitachi UWX20B CRT RPTV. This display has been calibrated using AVIA. However, I did enter the service menu, and corrected red and green push based on information contained in the AVS archives. While greyscale tracking is not accurate I believe color accuracy is as good as this particular CRT can get. The 79 is connected directly to the Hitachi's DVI input using an HDMI/DVI adapter with the 79 set to 1080i resolution. My room is light-controlled at night which is where I did all of my critical viewing and evaluations. I sit 12 feet from the screen.

I used the following settings for the player in my evaluation:

Auto 2
Progressive set to slow
Detail set one notch above off
7.5 IRE
RGB (not Full Range)
Every other setting set in middle position

Silence of the Lambs: Chapter "Closer!"

I have this movie pretty much implanted in my head, and I find this chapter to be excellent for evaluating skin tone and facial details. The transfer may be soft by today's standard bearers, but the facial close-ups between Clarice and Lecter are very important. How those scenes are rendered makes a huge difference on the emotional impact that director Demme was hoping to achieve. There are many examples of such scenes in this film, but this is my favorite. Here, Lecter's eye features were sharply detailed, every crack very clear and visible. Even individual dots of his stubble could be made out. Clarice's hair was black in color, but rendered beautifully in several shades of black; ranging from very dark to almost an auburn tint. Individual strands of hair could easily be made out. Her plaid jacket was nicely rendered; the various patterns not falling into a jumbled mess.

Titanic 2 disc Special Edition: "Back to Titanic"

I really don't like this movie, but this scene is a perfect example of what every film's color and detail should look like. We begin with Rose as an old woman. Her face is scarred with age; lines running everwhere, and the 79 showed everyone of them very clearly; particularly around the eyes. Then we move to Titanic in all it's glory. The scene where Rose steps from the car is drop-dead gorgeous; her garish lavender, feathered hat is simply beautiful with various shades of color visible, along with the grainy detail of the hat's cloth. Her fiancee's coat is an obvious windowpane pattern, it's faint lines visible against the jacket's main color. Not an easy thing to make out, normally!

LOTR: The Fellowship of the Ring "Concerning Hobbits"

A great scene for greens, yellows, and browns; otherwise known as earth tones. This scene can easily be driven into oversaturation, but each shade was rendered very nicely without a cartoonish look. The pattern on Bilbo's coat as his back his to the camera is easily made out. The scene when Frodo first sees Gandalf is a nice little test. Gandalf is dressed in grey, but here we can see two clear shades of grey with the wool cloth's grain clearly visible. Again, the details, just as in the other two films, are razor sharp; all those age lines, are very visible. The wizard's beard's strands stand out as does the white and greys that make up the beard's color.

My conclusion:

This player has allowed me to see things I have never seen before. I love how it can reach down into the transfer and pull out details that were previously hidden from me. I hope further tweaks become available as the more technically-inclined among us continue to work with this player's settings. If these new setting actually do help the 79 test better, then I think Secrets will (and should) do a follow-up review.

Jim Z

SPECIAL SETTING POST:

There is some misunderstanding from some of my posts. I hope this is clearer.

***The setting I use for HDMI detail is the center setting. Sometimes I move it down two clicks from center as needed for some noisy DVDs.***

What I am trying to say is this: When set all the way to the left it seems to trip up cadence detection on some cadence modes. It also adds a huge amount of blur to the picture which is way over the top. Don't set it there. If you want it set to default then use the middle setting. Move it to the left a little if you want to get rid of grainy noise at the expence of detail. You choose what you like for your display.

And remember, I am not an expert I am an "appliance operator" like most of you with a little knowledge. Consider people like me who give advise as dangerous. Please wait for Kris to explain this. For all I know it has nothing to do with cadence detection. What I may be seeing is the effect of the blur filter which may be giving me the effect of a failed cadence test. But I still say that I really like the picture from this 79.

Rick

Hi Rick,

You seem to know quite a great deal for an "appliance operator", but I see your point. Kris is "the man", and I respect his opinion more than most reviewers. My observations were not meant to be technical or gospel (that was made quite clear, I think!), but as the end result is what we see I thought I would share my observations on my setup, FWIW.

I take it, then, that the "HDMI Detail" control overrides the "Detail" control if you are using HDMI/DVI? The manual is not clear on this...

I guess we will have to wait for the more techincal among us to actually explain why or why should we not mess around with these settings. Obviously, setting progressive to slow improves the picture on some scenes, but may present problems on others. I suspect the same can be said for the "Detail" settings as well.

Will be interesting to find out...

Jim Z

Jim:

Your report was very insightful. And, I think everyone will take it as your view of this player in your system. I enjoyed reading it. It sounds like you are having a lot of fun, what else is life all about?

To answer your question: HDMI Detail is active when you are using the HDMI output and the other Detail setting seems to be inactive. Try rurning the HDMI up to center or one or two down from center. One up looks like too much blur to me on my particular system.

Rick

Look close and you will see edge enhancement if HDMI DETAIL is set to anything but zero. Set it at zero and the blurr/clayface is very visible. I left mine at 1/4 because the clayface is worse than the EE, IMO.

Sergio

Jim:

Your report was very insightful. And, I think everyone will take it as your view of this player in your system. I enjoyed reading it. It sounds like you are having a lot of fun, what else is life all about?

To answer your question: HDMI Detail is active when you are using the HDMI output and the other Detail setting seems to be inactive. Try rurning the HDMI up to center or one or two down from center. One up looks like too much blur to me on my particular system.

Rick

Rick,

Thanks for your comments. I will alter my settings (I had the HDMI Detail in the center position), and will try one quarter. That seems to be an accepted trade-off between clay-face and EE. Like slimoli, I cannot stand EE.

Rick, I take it from your post above that we should leave all other settings to the middle position? I would think there may be significant improvements in test performance when these settings are altered (perhaps to the worse; not better).

Jim Z

How do you guys access the menus to change this stuff. I cant seem to find it in the Home Menu button.

How do you guys access the menus to change this stuff. I cant seem to find it in the Home Menu button.

Home -> Video Adjust -> memory -> detail settings (pages 58-59 of manual)

I agree with the HDMI detail being one or two steps from the left. Anything else, and EE becomes too apparent.

Can someone please confirm what the ideal color space should be through HDMI...I have read a lot of conflicting ideas. Default is 12 bit component...but RGB (Full Range) seems to look better to us (but it could be a phony colorspace...we want whats best for the HDMI). Once again, can someone confirm 0 or 7.5 IRE for greyscale seting...I remember Kris saying he could get BTB with either (We think 0 IRE looks best).

I agree with the HDMI detail being one or two steps from the left. Anything else, and EE becomes too apparent.

Can someone please confirm what the ideal color space should be through HDMI...I have read a lot of conflicting ideas. Default is 12 bit component...but RGB (Full Range) seems to look better to us (but it could be a phony colorspace...we want whats best for the HDMI). Once again, can someone confirm 0 or 7.5 IRE for greyscale seting...I remember Kris saying he could get BTB with either (We think 0 IRE looks best).

It depends on what display you are using. In my case I use 0 IRE to get a much better blacks with my Mitsubishi 73927. 7.5 IRE makes the blacks kind of blue. Full range RGB makes the color more vivid but less natural. I get better results with Components 12 bits. HDMI DETAIL 2 steps from left seems to be the best.

Sergio

Has anybody had the opportunity to compare this player to Yamaha's DVD-S2500?

Has anybody had the opportunity to compare this player to Yamaha's DVD-S2500?

For that matter has anyone compared this player to the Marantz 9600?

For that matter has anyone compared this player to the Marantz 9600?

I hope to. My Marantz 9600 arrives tmrw morning, and I am eval'ing it against the 3910 so far. I want desperately to find a 79 that I can evaluate but know of no one who has them with a return policy.

Has anybody had the opportunity to compare this player to Yamaha's DVD-S2500?

I bought the S2500 just before Christmas and kept it for about 3 weeks. I was buying an RXD-4500 receiver so I thought the S2500 would be a good match. In terms of picture quality it is fine. The i.link works well.

However, in day to day use, the S2500 is a major nuisance. Load times on disks are diabolical. On DVD-audio disks the player would on occasion stop in the middle of a track. After this the only way to get things moving was to turn off the S2500 and restart the disk from the beginning. Not exactly the best way to enjoy music, particularly when you have paid well for the privilege! The S2500 is a Philips design with a DVD-Audio chip thown in by Yamaha. I'm not impressed with the implementation.

I returned the S2500 and bought a 989AVi. Not one second of bother since. The picture is wonderful. Sound is superb - again via i.link. I'm very happy with the machine. I listen to and watch a lot of music DVDs, SACD, DVD-Audio etc. and I find the 989 is just the job for this. For movies, it is a pleasure also.

As a matter of interest, while I was originally awaiting the S2500, the store gave me a Denon 1920 so that I could use the HDMi link with my pj. This was a fine machine. Of the three players, 1920, S2500 and 989Avi, the Denon operating system is by far the best - it's the cleanest, easiest to adjust via GUI, and it does what it says on the tin i.e. it's intuitive.

A number of people have referred to the 989avi being the "European version" of the 79avi, in other words an identical machine.

Yet Pioneer enabled PAL->NTSC and NTSC->PAL conversion on the 989avi but not the 79avi. Is this MPAA influence at work? What's the deal here?

Had I known at the time, I would have sought out a 989avi, as I have a fair number of PAL music DVDs...

A number of people have referred to the 989avi being the "European version" of the 79avi, in other words an identical machine.

Yet Pioneer enabled PAL->NTSC and NTSC->PAL conversion on the 989avi but not the 79avi. Is this MPAA influence at work? What's the deal here?

Had I known at the time, I would have sought out a 989avi, as I have a fair number of PAL music DVDs...
Are you sure? JVB Digital's website says that both the 989 and the 79 output NTSC and PAL, but without conversion. Just many European displays are multi-system, but that feature is more rare in the US.

I bought the S2500 just before Christmas and kept it for about 3 weeks. I was buying an RXD-4500 receiver so I thought the S2500 would be a good match. In terms of picture quality it is fine. The i.link works well...

...I returned the S2500 and bought a 989AVi. Not one second of bother since. The picture is wonderful. Sound is superb - again via i.link. I'm very happy with the machine. I listen to and watch a lot of music DVDs, SACD, DVD-Audio etc. and I find the 989 is just the job for this. For movies, it is a pleasure also...

Thanks for your reply. It was very informative.

Aside from the hassles you mention (diabolical load times - that's a very graphical description :D - etc.) it seems you also prefer the 989AVi over the S2500 in terms of picture quality (wonderful vs fine). I was wondering if, in light of the problems reported by Kris, the Yamaha had just become an option to consider.

Are you sure? JVB Digital's website says that both the 989 and the 79 output NTSC and PAL, but without conversion. Just many European displays are multi-system, but that feature is more rare in the US.

The 989avi manual contains instructions on how to set the player to convert PAL to NTSC, NTSC to PAL, or "Auto". These same instructions are not in the 79avi manual, nor does following the 989avi instructions work on the 79avi; must be disabled in firmware.

I was wondering if, in light of the problems reported by Kris, the Yamaha had just become an option to consider.

GCG,

If I had a choice today as to whether I would buy a 989AVi or an S2500, knowing what I now know of both, I would choose the 989AVi without hesitation despite the large price difference between the two (S2500 cheaper).

Kris has done excellent work testing the 79AVi. I've no doubt Pioneer are aware of his findings. This will help us all in our future purchases - caveat vendor:-) I have had nothing but enjoyment from the 989AVi, so I'm a happy camper.

Would I prefer a DVD player that tested as near to perfection as possible? Yes I would of course. One evening I went looking for the problem part in Gladiator. I could not see the difficulty, so I looked at the rest of the movie instead as I found it so enjoyable: colour, sound and the quality of picture.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating: I've watched more movies and listened to more music since I got the 989, the 4600 and the Z4, than I did in ages. Which of the three is responsible? Je ne sais pas, it's a happy confluence. I play CDs on my Meridian 506, not on the 989.

P.S. "Crosby, Stills and Nash: The Acoustic concert" is magic; as are "Diana Krall Live in Paris", "Andrea Bocelli, a night in Tuscany" and "One night with Blue Note". Movie wise: Downfall

The 989avi manual contains instructions on how to set the player to convert PAL to NTSC, NTSC to PAL, or "Auto". These same instructions are not in the 79avi manual, nor does following the 989avi instructions work on the 79avi; must be disabled in firmware.
Wow. Thanks for that info. My 79 has been modded by JVB, I'll have to get back in touch with them, and see if they can figure how to add this feature to future mods.

Thanks again for your thoughts. That's exactly the kind of info I was hoping to find!

GCG,

If I had a choice today as to whether I would buy a 989AVi or an S2500, knowing what I now know of both, I would choose the 989AVi without hesitation despite the large price difference between the two (S2500 cheaper).

Kris has done excellent work testing the 79AVi. I've no doubt Pioneer are aware of his findings. This will help us all in our future purchases - caveat vendor:-) I have had nothing but enjoyment from the 989AVi, so I'm a happy camper.

Would I prefer a DVD player that tested as near to perfection as possible? Yes I would of course. One evening I went looking for the problem part in Gladiator. I could not see the difficulty, so I looked at the rest of the movie instead as I found it so enjoyable: colour, sound and the quality of picture.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating: I've watched more movies and listened to more music since I got the 989, the 4600 and the Z4, than I did in ages. Which of the three is responsible? Je ne sais pas, it's a happy confluence. I play CDs on my Meridian 506, not on the 989.

P.S. "Crosby, Stills and Nash: The Acoustic concert" is magic; as are "Diana Krall Live in Paris", "Andrea Bocelli, a night in Tuscany" and "One night with Blue Note". Movie wise: Downfall

Have any owners found the power cord connection to the 79avi to be loose (mine falls out if the 79avi is moved even slightly)? Is it just my unit? Thanks

Have any owners found the power cord connection to the 79avi to be loose (mine falls out if the 79avi is moved even slightly)? Is it just my unit? Thanks


Yes. See my previous post.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7023859#post7023859


marty

I have recently acquired a 79AVi (or 989AVi as it’s called in Europe).

The last few days I have been trying to get the HDMI-settings to work correctly. My problems now focus on the way the player outputs blacks via HDMI. No matter what settings I apply the blacks are worse than the levels of the output via component or s-video. Via component the blacks are indistinguishable from the unnprojected background on the screen (I’m using a 4:3 screen), but over HDMI the blacks are more gray than black.

Is this a common behavior of the digital signals, or am I doing something wrong?

Relevant equipment besides the 989AVi: Nec HT1000 (DLP-projector 1024x768), Belkin pureAV silver HDMI-DVI cable, Draper Luma (gain 1,0).

/T

Whenever you hook up any new video player to a display you have to calibrate the display to match the output of the player. Did you calibrate with Avia or DVE or some equivalent?

larry

Whenever you hook up any new video player to a display you have to calibrate the display to match the output of the player. Did you calibrate with Avia or DVE or some equivalent?

larry

I have only calibrated with the THX-optimizer included with some DVD:s. As my problem is only with the levels of black; should'nt this be enough as a calibartion tool?
Maybe this is a displaydependant issue, as the HT1000 disables a lot of it's internal processing when fed via DVI?

/T

I have recently acquired a 79AVi (or 989AVi as it’s called in Europe).

The last few days I have been trying to get the HDMI-settings to work correctly. My problems now focus on the way the player outputs blacks via HDMI. No matter what settings I apply the blacks are worse than the levels of the output via component or s-video. Via component the blacks are indistinguishable from the unnprojected background on the screen (I’m using a 4:3 screen), but over HDMI the blacks are more gray than black.

Is this a common behavior of the digital signals, or am I doing something wrong?

Relevant equipment besides the 989AVi: Nec HT1000 (DLP-projector 1024x768), Belkin pureAV silver HDMI-DVI cable, Draper Luma (gain 1,0).

/T

If you haven't already, try using RGB Enhanced under the Options, HDMI area of the set-up. Then check the IRE setting.

Be aware that "Full range RGB" is just RGB at PC levels, so unless your display is expecting that, you will just end up recalibrating it to the same picture you have now, but you will just end up having to crank up the brightness to avoid crushing balcks. I think the IRE may be the better place to start, try 0 instead of 7.5. For example, for the HS51, normal RGB, 0 IRE over HDMI is going to get you the best picture.

Try Full range RGB with 7.5 IRE as well and report which looks best.

thamlet: I understand the whole pc-RGB vs video-RGB but, sometimes black level is a trade off and this might be one of those cases because DLP doesn't do black perfectly anyway. Also, his DLP may be set up for pc-RGB over the DVI (You already know this). It will be interesting to see which one looks better.

Tosh09: Your homework assignment tonight is to compare and report back to us what you find out. :)

Rick

I have only calibrated with the THX-optimizer included with some DVD:s. As my problem is only with the levels of black; should'nt this be enough as a calibartion tool?
Maybe this is a displaydependant issue, as the HT1000 disables a lot of it's internal processing when fed via DVI?

/T If you can raise brightness to see the BTB bar and then reduce brightness to make the BTB fade into background (I assume you can do this with the THX-opt), then that is a correct setting of brightness for that setting of contrast (white level). If the blacks look too "gray", then drop the setting of contrast and recalibrate brightness. Having big differences between component input settings and digital input settings on the same device is not uncommon.

larry

Ok, thanks for all the help. I think I have relied a bit too much on adjusting the settings on the DVD. This evening I have instead done some serious tweaking on the projector. Mostly I have been adjusting the color levels and by reducing these also lowering the black levels.
I now think I have a picture I’m starting to feel I can live with.

Considering my little homework assignment; On the 989 I have to say that no setting under 7,5 IRE, gives me a satisfying result. I will continue using 0 IRE instead. Full Range RGB changes very little for me, so there it’s either way.

/T

I just purchased a new Pioneer DV-79AVI to replace my 5 year old DV-36. I chose the 79 over the 59 and the Yamaha S2500. I paid $125 over the 59 for the 79. I have not changed any of the factory settings yet. I would like some advice from you guys on HDMI or component, should I go straight to my Sharp LCD or through my Yam 2600 receiver? When testing the HDMI quality, will my 5.1 sound go through the HDMI wire or do I still need my optical hookup for the audio?

Dr. Bill

If your Yamaha receiver has the I-LINK input, by all means use it to hook your 79. The HDMI will not pass SACD and I found the sound through the I-LINK much better.

Sergio

Dr. Bill

If your Yamaha receiver has the I-LINK input, by all means use it to hook your 79. The HDMI will not pass SACD and I found the sound through the I-LINK much better.

Sergio

Sorry for the dumb question, but I-Link will pass Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS, right? I'm going to go that way if it will pass these signals to my 74 receiver.

Thanks.

Sorry for the dumb question, but I-Link will pass Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS, right? I'm going to go that way if it will pass these signals to my 74 receiver.

Thanks.

Yes, it will. With I-LINK you don't need another cable. I have a 79 linked through I-LINK to a 74 receiver and it sounds great.

Sergio

Yes, it will. With I-LINK you don't need another cable. I have a 79 linked through I-LINK to a 74 receiver and it sounds great.

Sergio

Sweet - thanks for your reply. Now I'll go directly into my plasma with HDMI and do sound this way. :)

Sergio,
I chose the Yamaha 2600 over the Pioneer 74. I like the brightness of Yamaha audio. The 2600 has video upscaling, but no I-link therefore I will need to use optical from the DV-79 to the 2600 unless the HDMI passes the audio signal to the receiver. That is my question, does HDMI pass multichannel or just 2 channel? When you use optical or coax digital, the receiver does the decoding, analog out of the DVD, you use the players DACs. Which component is doing the conversion in HDMI?

HDMI on the 79 will pass everything but SACD and use the DAC in your Yammie. If you use the optical or coax out you will need to connect the analog 5.1 outputs to get SACD or DVD-A.

Dr. Bill

If you are not interested in SACD, just use the HDMI to the 2600. HDMI will pass all the multi-channel signals including DVD-A with the best possible quality. There is no reason in your case to use the optical or coax because you will need the analog 5.1 anyway to listen to SACD multi-channel, as Tom has already said. The 79 has optical and coax output for those who don't have a HDMI or I-LINK receiver. The player's DAC will be used in the case you want multi-channel SACD through the 5.1 analog outputs, otherwise the receiver will do the job.

Sergio

Thanks guys, my staff says that it is a rare moment, but that is exactly how I thought it would happen. I think that I will use the HDMI for the video and the dolby soundtrack. I do not have any SACD or DVD-A, but I may hook up the 6 discrete while I am at it. I guess if I send the HDMI direct to the HDTV, I will need to use the optical for my sound track. Is there any advantage to sending the video direct and bypass the 2600?

I have read in many postings here that the DV-79 has very good audio that is superior to many other units. My question is since the 79 is simply sending out the digital signal, either bit stream or PCM to the receiver for conversion, would not the quality of the sound be more dependent on the receiver than the player? Also is the audio signal the same over optical and HDMI? I do think my 79 has a richer sound with more depth than my Yamaha CD player, but why?

Dr. Bill - I'm from the school that says all digital outputs sound pretty much the same assuming you are using the same receiver or Pre/Pro. Others will argue there is a difference due to jitter but I've never convinced myself that I could hear a difference. Where I feel the 79 audio shines is the analog outputs, which for those of use who don't have audio capability over HDMI or Firewire have to use for SACD/DVD-A.

I've done some comparisons with the regular CD analog outputs on the the 79s also. I've compared it to my external Perpetual Tech DAC and the 79 analog stands up very well, although I do still prefer the external DAC. I see a lot of people who automatically think audio over Firewire or HDMI interface is going to be superior to the analog outs. I'm of the opinion that the 79's DACs and analog output stage is pretty darn good and better then a lot of the receivers people are using to connect Firewire and HDMI to. Once better quality Pre/Pros come equipped with HDMI or Firewire then I think these interfaces may shine.

I never had any "high end" gear, nothing like $40K tube amps or $10K cd players but I had almost all "real world" brands like Denon, Yamaha,Pioneer , including several flagships. The combination of the 79 and the 74 linked through I-LINK sounds better than anything I had before, hands down. Watching a movie, I can clearly notice a much better clarity on the dialogues and surround separation. I tried SACD using the analog 5.1 and the I-LINK and at least with the 79/74 combo the I-LINK sounds better. I agree that using the analog out with a high end pre/pro like Krell would possibly be even better but then we would be in a different ball game.

I always find interesting that we discuss differences between digital and analog connections because they are actually subtle. A different set of speakers, for example, could change the sound quality dramatically but we spend more time talking about cables and connectors.

Sergio

Thanks for the help guys. I noticed no difference in the audio quality on the 79 between optical and HDMI. In that case, if I choose component for the video, I will use optical for audio. If I choose HDMI, then I will let it handle both audio and video. If I set up the 6 channel analog, how do you control which signal is going to the 2600 and on to the speakers. For that matter, can DVD movie sound tracks be carried by the 6 channel output?
Thanks for your help, this is a great forum with a wealth of information for those of us lacking needed knowledge.

HI guys,

I have been listening to my dv79 avi through the analoge output to my Sunfire Symphonic Reference 2 ch preamp. The analoge output of this player is much superior to that of any other player I have used (Denon dvd 3800, 2900, 5900, 3910) This is the un modified analoge output. I have since upgraded many of the output components to the best available and this baby really sings now! It has the layers of sound and the instruments show a great deal of seperation and the sound stage is much wider than the speakers. This is one very, very excellent player for the money and once you have it modded it is amazing via the analoge output.

God bless...

Mark

HI guys,

I have been listening to my dv79 avi through the analoge output to my Sunfire Symphonic Reference 2 ch preamp. The analoge output of this player is much superior to that of any other player I have used (Denon dvd 3800, 2900, 5900, 3910) This is the un modified analoge output. I have since upgraded many of the output components to the best available and this baby really sings now! It has the layers of sound and the instruments show a great deal of seperation and the sound stage is much wider than the speakers. This is one very, very excellent player for the money and once you have it modded it is amazing via the analoge output.

God bless...

Mark
Cool. Mind giving a quick list of what you modded in the player?

larry

When using the analog out channels on the 79, do you still need the HDMI or optical for the DVD sound tracks like Dolby and DTS? If both a hooked up, do you make the switch on the receiver or on the 79?

When using the analog out channels on the 79, do you still need the HDMI or optical for the DVD sound tracks like Dolby and DTS? If both a hooked up, do you make the switch on the receiver or on the 79?
The 79 will decode and pass the output of DD and DTS through the analog jacks. Because I have an older receiver I only rely upon the 79's DACs and made no digital connections.

If you do make both, the 79 has both the digital and analog outputs active at the same time, so you can just switch on the receiver.

Since the selector switch will be on DVD regardless, that audio switching must occur somewhere else on my Yam 2600. I guess that I will have to get the book out.

I do not think you can pass DD or DTS through analog inputs. You have to use optical, coaxial or i-link. I use i-link as I have a 74txvi with the 79avi, which handles all my audio.

Bill

I do not think you can pass DD or DTS through analog inputs. You have to use optical, coaxial or i-link. I use i-link as I have a 74txvi with the 79avi, which handles all my audio.

Bill

Yes, DD and DTS 5.1 will be output from the analog out on the 79. I tried it and it works but I also use the I-LINK between my 79 and 74. DTS 6.1 (discrete) will require a digital connection.

Dr. Bill

I don't understand your question. If you go with the analog link, just switch your receiver input to something like "Multi CH IN" and the 79 will do the processing. You don't need to switch anything at the DVD player. In my view, you should only go with analog if you want to play SACD multi-channel, otherwise go with the optical or coax in order to play everything including 6.1 sources. A lot of new DVDs are coming with DTS 6.1, in case your setup has all the speakers.

Sergio

Yes, DD and DTS 5.1 will be output from the analog out on the 79. I tried it and it works but I also use the I-LINK between my 79 and 74. DTS 6.1 (discrete) will require a digital connection.

Sergio

I stand corrected, I was going on some older players I have had that had to be connected via optical or coaxial. I never tried the analog outputs as I have only used the i-link connection.

Bill

Sergio,
I was trying to learn how the digital and analog worked behind the scenes. I thought that I would wire both the outlets while I had my audio cabinent away from the wall. I currently do not have any SACDs that would require the analog outs to be wired. I just wanted to make sure that both side would be active at the same time and if analog would pass DD and DTS encoded material. ** I will need to find the switch for changing between the two audio sources because the main selector will be on DVD which would use the digital audio.

Also, what method of video transport are you using, HDMI or component to receiver or TV?

I do not think you can pass DD or DTS through analog inputs. You have to use optical, coaxial or i-link. I use i-link as I have a 74txvi with the 79avi, which handles all my audio.

Bill

Just to confirm what slimoli mentioned, I don't even have the digital outputs on the 79avi hooked up. The only audio connnections I'm using are the 5.1 analog connections. I've played SACD, DVD-A, DVD (DD 5.1) and DVD (DTS), and they all sound glorious.

Are most of you guys using HDMI or Component for your video? Even if you are using firewire for the audio, you gotta transport the video. It seems that my HDMI has a little red push to it for my taste, but the image is a little sharper. Is it best to send the video signal directly to the tv or through the receiver. My tv is native 760P. Do I upscale at the DVD player, the Yam 2600 upconverting receiver or send 480i to the tv and let it scale it. Heck, I got three choices AFTER I decide HDMI or component.

Dr. Bill

What I still don't understand is "I will need to find the switch for changing between the two audio sources because the main selector will be on DVD which would use the digital audio"

What switch are you talking about? If you want to hook both digital and analog to your receiver, all you have to do is to select the proper input on the receiver. You can use any input name. One input will be for example DVD (with the digital link) and other input will be CD,MULTI or anything the Yamaha receiver can handle using he analog 5.1 inputs. In my case, with a Pioneer 74, I use DVD and MULTI. One for digital and other for analog.

I am pretty sure that the Yamaha has programable inputs, which means you can assign the right connection to a given input name. That's all you have to do.

I have one HDMI cable from the 79 to my Mitsubishi TV (73927) and the I-LINK to my Pioneer receiver. This is the best possible combination, IMO.

Sergio

Sergio,
That is the difference. My HDMI is carrying my digital audio and my video to the 2600. That is why I can't simply use a different input, because I only have the one video feed. If I was sending the video direct to the tv, I could do as you mentioned as long as I used optical to replace the audio feed that I would then be losing from the HDMI. Out of curiosity, if I send the HDMI directly to the tv, will the tv speakers put out audio also. I think they would, not what you would want since it would convert to 2 channel.

Sergio,
That is the difference. My HDMI is carrying my digital audio and my video to the 2600. That is why I can't simply use a different input, because I only have the one video feed. If I was sending the video direct to the tv, I could do as you mentioned as long as I used optical to replace the audio feed that I would then be losing from the HDMI. Out of curiosity, if I send the HDMI directly to the tv, will the tv speakers put out audio also. I think they would, not what you would want since it would convert to 2 channel.

OK. I just read the 2600 manual online and now I can speak the Yamaha language.

-Hook up your 79 using HDMI to an input like "DVD" on the 2600.
-Hook up the 6 cables from the 79 analog out to the MULTI CH IN jacks on the back of the 2600

-When you want to watch a movie using the HDMI to send the audio: Just select "DVD" as the input on your 2600.

-When you want to watch a movie using the 5.1 analog connection: Select "DVD" as the input on your 2600 AND PRESS MULTI CH IN on your 2600 remote control. This key will activate the 5.1 analog WITHOUT changing the video source. Press the MULTI CH IN key again to go back to the HDMI audio signal.

The formula above works if you want to use the HDMI through the receiver and also want to use the analog 5.1 output for movies or SACD/DVD-A.


Now, to answer your other question: If you link the 79 to your TV through the HDMI , only the 2 CH audio will be fired from the TV speakers. Some TVs will downconvert 5.1 to 2.0 and will also work OK, some will produce a terrible noise (like my Panasonic plasma) and some will be silent. Most DVD players can be set to output downconverted DD and DTS to 2 CH PCM but this is not your case anyway since you have a glorious Pioneer 79 and a very good Yamaha receiver.

Go with HDMI through the receiver, hook up the analogs 5.1 and you will have the best combination.

Sergio

Thanks Sergio, That was above the call of duty to go look up a manual on line, you da man!
There is also a switch on the front of the 2600 to go too multi-channel input.

On the audio side, I hooked up both the HDMI and multi channel. IMO, I think the 6 channel sounded better than 2 channel stereo, but not nearly as nice as some of the DSP sound fields that the 2600 can perform. The 7 channel program DSP is my favorite, so I will set it up with the HDMI cable for the digital signal and let the 2600 do its magic.

On the video side, I hooked up component and HDMI, both through the 2600. Out of the box, I liked the component best for facial tones. The HDMI had too much of a red push on faces, but overall it had much better color saturation. I read some of the previous posts on set up and took some red out and decreased the sharpness. The PQ is nothing short of awesome. I am feeding the signal at 480i to my 2600 and upconverting it to 720p before sending it to my Sharp LCD. You can make some dramatic improvements from the OEM settings on this machine. The earlier post here really helped, but every monitor is different so experiment alittle and you will be rewarded. I know the early tests from Kris were not favorable for the 79, but it is the best PQ that I have ever seen on DVD.

Hey all,

I recently switched over to HDMI for video and am upconverting to 1080i. However I'm now getting a slight vertical line on the right hand side of the screen. This only happens at 1080i, 480p showed no sign of it (my set can't handle 720p so I don't know about that). I was hoping some of you out there using HDMI could check and see if you're getting the same anomoly or if there's something specifically wrong with my unit. The line is visible in scenes that are solid and bright, anything white will show it easily. Exactly where it may appear on the right side would depend on how the overscan is set on your TV. It's a couple inches from the border on my TV.

Thanks for the help.
Dave

What TV?

larry

I saw a vertical line one time when the screen was a no signal blue screen, but it went away when I finished my hook ups and I never saw it on playback of any type. Sorry that I don't have better info. Unplug and plug in again and see if it leaves. What are your settings?

I recently switched over to HDMI for video and am upconverting to 1080i. However I'm now getting a slight vertical line on the right hand side of the screen. This only happens at 1080i, 480p showed no sign of it...

Can you shift the Right-Left position of the image on your display. I found that on both 1080i and 720p the picture was slightly shifted to the left. This left a vertical line on the right side of the screen.

On my projector this was easily adjusted with shifting the RL-position.

/T

My Tv is a Panasonic CT-34WX15. I went into the service menu and adjusted the overscan so it wasn't chopping off so much of the image. but even if i reset the overscan to what it was the line would still be visible although much closer to the the right edge. I didn't think this could be the TV's fault as the line only appears in 1080i mode through DVD and does not appear on regular TV signal. Unfortunately I don't have HD TV to test that out.

Dave

After reading all 54 pages of this thread, I'm still a little confused about CUE and HDMI. If I use the HDMI input on my Hitachi 51S715, will I have CUE problems?

I really had my mind set on a Denon 3806/3910 combo until I found the Pioneer 74/79 combo. Now, I'm all wishy-washy again.

From what I'm reading, the DV79AVi is a terrific DVD player and I can probably get a better price on it that I can for the Denon 3910 but I want to make sure I'm as happy as possible.

The decisions...do they ever end? Will happiness be coming my way if I go the Pioneer route? For these and other question, stay tuned!

Hey all,

I recently switched over to HDMI for video and am upconverting to 1080i. However I'm now getting a slight vertical line on the right hand side of the screen. This only happens at 1080i, 480p showed no sign of it (my set can't handle 720p so I don't know about that). I was hoping some of you out there using HDMI could check and see if you're getting the same anomoly or if there's something specifically wrong with my unit. The line is visible in scenes that are solid and bright, anything white will show it easily. Exactly where it may appear on the right side would depend on how the overscan is set on your TV. It's a couple inches from the border on my TV.

Thanks for the help.
Dave

Dave,

Why don't you just use component, I just switched over to component with my 79 on my Plasma, it is a slam dunk if you want a good, reliable picture.

Andy

Andy's advice is very sound. Component is a very flexible signal which can be upscaled nicely. I know that my Yamaha 2600 receiver will only pass not upscale a HDMI signal. I have to use my 79 to upscale the HDMI signal before it is sent through the receiver. The receiver will however upscale the analog component signal and or convert to HDMI to send to the monitor. Component and HDMI on the 79 are equal in my opinion. They both need to be adjusted to get the best PQ.

After reading all 54 pages of this thread, I'm still a little confused about CUE and HDMI. If I use the HDMI input on my Hitachi 51S715, will I have CUE problems?

I really had my mind set on a Denon 3806/3910 combo until I found the Pioneer 74/79 combo. Now, I'm all wishy-washy again.

From what I'm reading, the DV79AVi is a terrific DVD player and I can probably get a better price on it that I can for the Denon 3910 but I want to make sure I'm as happy as possible.

The decisions...do they ever end? Will happiness be coming my way if I go the Pioneer route? For these and other question, stay tuned!
CUE (Chroma Upsampling Error) is an MPEG decoder issue. HDMI/DVI and component outputs will show CUE problems equally.

larry

Has anyone heard if Kris Deering has had any contact with Pioneer , successful or otherwise , concerning the issues he saw with this player ?

It would be nice to see Pioneer step up to the plate and address this matter .

Is the Pioneer Rep on the Forum again ?

Scott....................... :cool:

CUE (Chroma Upsampling Error) is an MPEG decoder issue. HDMI/DVI and component outputs will show CUE problems equally.


Ok. Now, I've seen CUE problems already and they drove me insane! Just how bad are the CUE problems with this player. Since I'm leaning heavily toward the VSX-74TXVi over Denon's AVR-3806, will Denon's 3910 be a good choice for this receiver?

One of the main reason's I liked the DV-79AVi is for it's Firewire/I-Link/IEEE1394 connection and as I understand it, the 3910 has that as well. Will that work with the 74TXVi?

I know the 3910 suffers from Macroblocking but I'm not really sure if I'll see that with my Hitachi as it's a CRT-RPTV.

Any help will be, again, greatly appreciated!

Dave,

Why don't you just use component, I just switched over to component with my 79 on my Plasma, it is a slam dunk if you want a good, reliable picture.

Andy

Amen - I have HDMI connections available, but so what. Just because it's supposed to be this or that doesn't change the fact that it's not reliable for every one.
I'd love to ditch my heavy 3 wire, but until the day comes.....

E

Just a quick story on how pushing one wrong button can be very aggravating. When I got home from work my wife told me the DVD she put in could not play after she had just watched one. I checked all video and audio settings but everything was as it had been set. If I put in a DVD or CD I got no video or audio as well as no display.

I broke out the manual to the trouble shooting section and found that the pure audio light was on. When I tried to turn off the pure audio it would not turn off. Upon further reading on pure audio the player must not have a DVD playing in order to disable the pure audio feature. With the front display not active I did not see that the DVD in the player was in play.

I stopped the DVD pushed the pure audio button the light went out and I was back in business. When ejecting the first DVD my wife watched she accidently hit the pure audio button which is in about in same spot as the eject button just on the left side of the drawer. Thought I would share my story just in case someone else has the same problem.

Bill

Hahahaha, I did the same thing today. Only took a couple button presses to figure out though. No big deal. I wouldn't call it a "problem" really.

Hahahaha, I did the same thing today. Only took a couple button presses to figure out though. No big deal. I wouldn't call it a "problem" really.

The problem was myself and how aggravated I got trying to correct it (a long work week). Definitely not a problem related to the 79avi and a easy fix.

Bill

Sorry, I wasn't laughing at you btw, I was laughing at the fact that I did the exact same thing for the first time. I put in a 24 Season 4 DVD and thought "wtf!" I like to fix things by hitting random buttons until it works...in this case...that was the solution :p

I hear you about the long work week, I had a long week for other reasons, but hell, it's just about over!

Sorry, I wasn't laughing at you btw, I was laughing at the fact that I did the exact same thing for the first time. I put in a 24 Season 4 DVD and thought "wtf!" I like to fix things by hitting random buttons until it works...in this case...that was the solution :p

I hear you about the long work week, I had a long week for other reasons, but hell, it's just about over!

Not a problem, I understood where you were coming from. I cut my week short and took today off!

Bill

Can anyone tell me what the internal bass management and cross over settings are for the 79AVi? I have one on order, and I'm wondering if I still need to run the SACD analog inputs through my ICBM, or if the 79 has adequate internal settings to go direct to my pre/pro. Actually a fixed 80 hz cross over would do me just fine, as I have not found a benefit to separate cross over settings for different speakers.

I do realize this info might be here SOMEWHERE in this 50+ page thread, but I was hoping someone could shoot me a simple answer quicker.

80 hz fixed. SACD-DSD analog out uses BM but not Time Alignment (DVD-A uses both).

Guys: wondering if anyone has a simple fix for me - clearly I am missing a set-up feature (probably a basisc one too), but cannot get it right despite multiple passes through the manual.

When playing SACD, I am getting no (zero) sound through the sub. All analog outs connected, 79avi set to 5.1 out, etc. If I play through digital out with a redbook or hybrid SACD, sub functions perfectly. Any ideas? Connecting to a Lexicon RV-8 if that matters.

Thanks.

Pretty sure you do NOT want it set to 5.1. You want multichannel but not 5.1 if I remember correctly. Try playing with setup more.

When playing SACD, I am getting no (zero) sound through the sub. All analog outs connected, 79avi set to 5.1 out, etc. If I play through digital out with a redbook or hybrid SACD, sub functions perfectly. Any ideas? Connecting to a Lexicon RV-8 if that matters.
When you are using the digital out, it is your receiver that is doing the cross-over work. When using the analog it has to be the 79. So make sure your speakers are set to "Small" to enable the cross-overs.

When you are using the digital out, it is your receiver that is doing the cross-over work. When using the analog it has to be the 79. So make sure your speakers are set to "Small" to enable the cross-overs.


Yep, I understand that the receiver is doing the processing when the digital out is in use. There is a "small" or "large" setting in the 79avi, which seems to have no effect (no sub involvement from the analog out with either setting). I can tweak the crossovers in the Lexicon - but it should have no impact one way or the other when I am merely passing-thru an analog signal, right? (if I do not use analog passthrough, the Lex does an A/D/A conversion, and I can output any of the various Lexicon processing options - and the sub works. I am looking for a pure analog passthrough though). Still stumped. Thanks,

Paul

Still stumped. Thanks,

Paul


Page 74 in manual. Try that. Or make sure you actually have the sub channel plugged in.

Hi,
I like to update my Pioneer DV-989 AVI-S (DV-79 avi in US),
where I can find the new firmware for this player and the istructions ?
Thank's
Fausto
Italy

What new firmware? :) Typically Pioneer (at least here in the US) doesn't provide upgrades to be installed by the user.

larry

What new firmware? :) Typically Pioneer (at least here in the US) doesn't provide upgrades to be installed by the user.

larry
That's what I thought too. While a tech directly from Pio (that is, not an authorized repair shop), was upgrading the FW on my Elite Pio Plasma, the update somehow fried the video board which then required replacement. I probably would've been screwed if I did that myself.

Hi everybody, in regard to Kriss Deering's review i think i found something.
In the much talked Gladiator scene in chapter 12 where flaws of the player were suspected and the notion to setting the progressive motion to slow were recommended; i think it may have been nothing at all, so here it goes:
when fast forwarding directly to chapter 12 you will see some artifacts on the eagle no matter if you have your progressive settings to med or slow. BUT if you rewind to approximately 59.40 sec which is about 10 sec before chapter 12 begins you will see no artifacts at all maybe the player needs time to "lock" on or whatever, same thing with the rooftops scene but this time fast forward to 64.00 sec and not after and wait until the rooftops scene comes after about a min or so and you will see no artifacts at all but if you fast forward to about 64.30 and wait for the rooftops you will see the zebra pattern. This scene needs to be viewed at 64.00sec because it needs time to lock on the very busy information in this scene.
So if you were to view this film from the beginning, you will see absolutely nothing of the artefacts mentioned even if you set your progressive motion to slow or med. But this scene got famous by people fast forwarding direcly to that scene and thus not giving the player the time to lock on thus producing all these artefacts. And my player is set to 720p.
What do you think guys?
Thanks

Hi everybody, in regard to Kriss Deering's review i think i found something.
In the much talked Gladiator scene in chapter 12 where flaws of the player were suspected and the notion to setting the progressive motion to slow were recommended; i think it may have been nothing at all, so here it goes:
when fast forwarding directly to chapter 12 you will see some artifacts on the eagle no matter if you have your progressive settings to med or slow. BUT if you rewind to approximately 59.40 sec which is about 10 sec before chapter 12 begins you will see no artifacts at all maybe the player needs time to "lock" on or whatever, same thing with the rooftops scene but this time fast forward to 64.00 sec and not after and wait until the rooftops scene comes after about a min or so and you will see no artifacts at all but if you fast forward to about 64.30 and wait for the rooftops you will see the zebra pattern. This scene needs to be viewed at 64.00sec because it needs time to lock on the very busy information in this scene.
So if you were to view this film from the beginning, you will see absolutely nothing of the artefacts mentioned even if you set your progressive motion to slow or med. But this scene got famous by people fast forwarding direcly to that scene and thus not giving the player the time to lock on thus producing all these artefacts. And my player is set to 720p.
What do you think guys?
Thanks

I think you are watching the wrong scene. It's not the eagle, it's the scene right after Caesar plays with the figurines in the arena, about 62 minutes from the start. Look at the righ bottom corner and you will see a "zebra" artifact on the top of the first roof. With progressive motion to anything but slow you will see it. I have 4 DVD players, one of them an expensive Sony, and I see the same artifact with all of them. I bet the 59 would show the same and so far nobody has said the contrary . In pause mode or fast forward the artifact is there even with progressive motion set to slow and it makes no difference if I start watching 5 minutes or 10 seconds earlier.

Sergio

I think you are watching the wrong scene. It's not the eagle, it's the scene right after Caesar plays with the figurines in the arena, about 62 minutes from the start. Look at the righ bottom corner and you will see a "zebra" artifact on the top of the first roof. With progressive motion to anything but slow you will see it. I have 4 DVD players, one of them an expensive Sony, and I see the same artifact with all of them. I bet the 59 would show the same and so far nobody has said the contrary . In pause mode or fast forward the artifact is there even with progressive motion set to slow and it makes no difference if I start watching 5 minutes or 10 seconds earlier.

Sergio


Hi slimoli, sorry i forgot to say it was the extended special edition, that's why maybe my timing was off. But it is the correct scene, the view from the top.
I will get the normal edition maybe tomorrow and see if it gives me the same result.
Thanks

I do see the zebra pattern if i go directly to that scene, it is very clear.
But if i do what i stated above it is gone completely, the difference is night and day.
I wish if some people could try it, and see if they notice the difference.
Thanks.

Donmonte

I tried. No difference stopping 5 seconds or 3 minutes before the rooftop scene. Unless progress motion is in the lowest position the zebra is there.

Sergio

Hi slimoli, i will try the the normal version maybe it is different. There is a member at avforums that tried it and confirmed that it worked, but he didn't mention which version of the movie he had.
Regards.

Hi slimoli, i will try the the normal version maybe it is different. There is a member at avforums that tried it and confirmed that it worked, but he didn't mention which version of the movie he had.
Regards.

Hi that member was me. I live in Australia and viewed it on the special edition version.
This is on a PAL DVD which I am told by everyone down under is far superior format to the NTSC DVD which you guys have over there.

I've seen an earlier post on this problem concerning the power cord not securely staying put, mine has not come out but does not feel snug when plugged in. Is this not a commom problem?Any solutions short of opening up my player and replacing the plug in would be appreciated. Other than that I love this player.
Regards
Al

I've seen an earlier post on this problem concerning the power cord not securely staying put, mine has not come out but does not feel snug when plugged in. Is this not a commom problem?Any solutions short of opening up my player and replacing the plug in would be appreciated. Other than that I love this player.
Indeed, mine is also very loose. It won't fall out as the player is located, but I still don't like it.

What is at fault here, the cord or the jack on the player? I don't have any other 2 prong cables with which to test.

I know this thread has moved into the technical direction and some interesting information is being exchanged. For those interested, I found a recent "real world" review from "What Hifi", a British magazine sold at Barnes and Noble. I take ALL reviews/opinions with a grain of salt but if you read "What Hifi" regularly, they will definately rip a product so in terms of credibility, I don't know what else to say. They did a group test with the Denon 2910, Marantz 7600, Arcam DV78, Yamaha 2500 and the Pioneer 79 and declared the Pioneer the best of the group. Not for audio, however, but video-wise they felt it was the best in the class and will be pitting it against pricier units in their next magazine. They like the Denon and the Yamaha to some degree, they felt the Marantz had a soft picture. Again, far from the kind of technicality many are interested in here but nevertheless, there may be some people buzzing around that may value a more simplified analysis of where this player stands in a "normal" viewing scenario, check it out if you get a chance.

I am a relative newbie in all of this however does a PAL DVD produce the same effects as the NTSC ones you guys in the US use.
You see in Australia we use the PAL system as does Europe. Therefore from
my observations the 989 does not display any of the flaws you guys are going on and on about.
I recently purchased my 989 and have played 20 DVD's on it to date including that Gladiator scene. And I could not see anything you describe on my 120" diagnol screen.

I am a relative newbie in all of this however does a PAL DVD produce the same effects as the NTSC ones you guys in the US use.
You see in Australia we use the PAL system as does Europe. Therefore from
my observations the 989 does not display any of the flaws you guys are going on and on about.
I recently purchased my 989 and have played 20 DVD's on it to date including that Gladiator scene. And I could not see anything you describe on my 120" diagnol screen.


Hi con219, i tried yesterday that same scene with gladiator the normal edition and the artifacts were there, they didn't go away.
At least it feels good to know there's the extended edition, where there is none of the issues of the original and i can keep my progressive motion to medium.
Regards.

Hi con219, i tried yesterday that same scene with gladiator the normal edition and the artifacts were there, they didn't go away.
At least it feels good to know there's the extended edition, where there is none of the issues of the original and i can keep my progressive motion to medium.
Regards.

So it looks like in this case, at least, that the source material was to blame for the artifacts. Interesting - good detective work with the 2 editions.

Ahhh, but then why is the source material blamed if some DVD players can play that scene normally? I.e., the 5910. :)

I suppose it could be sort of like a "torture test", where only the best deinterlacers/processors can deal with whatever is going on there.

Ahhh, but then why is the source material blamed if some DVD players can play that scene normally? I.e., the 5910. :)

I suppose it could be sort of like a "torture test", where only the best deinterlacers/processors can deal with whatever is going on there.

I suppose it is the case but then when you pay what you do for the 5910
here in Australia you might as well buy the movie theatre.

:)

I´m guessing to buy the PIO 79AVI or the Sony NS9100ES. So would like to know if the 79AVI can be turned to region free and how can make this?

I bought the Denon 3910 and i´m very desapointed with it, because it fails to load some Original CDDA (redbook) and occurs in others 3910, so i think it is a general issue of 3910 units :(

Pedro,
Check here: http://www.jvbdigital.com

larry

I´m guessing to buy the PIO 79AVI or the Sony NS9100ES. So would like to know if the 79AVI can be turned to region free and how can make this?


I recommend and used HKFlix for my modification a couple of weeks ago. After one of my JVB-modified players failed and they refused to answer any emails, I decided to take my business elsewhere for future mods. The fact that HKFlix is also based out of Miami (which cuts down on shipping time for us East Coast users) didn't hurt either.

For what it's worth, the region-free 989AVi Pronto hack on the net does NOT work for the 79AVi, so don't waste your time with that.

I thought I would post my settings on my 79avi to see what people think, any thoughts would be helpful. I am connected via component directly to a Panasonic 42PWD6 plasma (no DVI blade). I set the Detail one click from the left as Rick Green had suggested, although his setting was HDMI Detail not sure if it would be the same with component. I calibrated the settings on my plasma with DVE with the below settings on the 79avi.

Prog. Motion: Slowest Setting
Pure Cinema: Auto2
YNR: Off
CNR: Off
Sharpness High: Two Clicks from Soft
Sharpness Mid: Two Clicks from soft
Detail: One Click from Left
White Level: Half Way
Black Level: Half Way
Black Set-up 7.5
Gamma: Half Way
Hue: Half Way
Chroma Level: Minimum
Chroma Delay: Minimum

It would be interesting if what Rick Green has found would change the outcome of the Secrets tests. The changing of Progressive Motion to the slowest setting helped with one of the first issues that Kris found maybe Rick's find will also be helpful. It just shows that sometimes tweaking the settings on a specfic component can be very helpful. I do not recall who found the Progressive Motion fix (Dale Adams maybe?) but if that person was not fooling around with settings it would have never been discovered.

Bill
Hi Bill

A rather late response but it was a guy called Dustin Alias Gandley from the UK
He was the one who informed Kris of the setting.

Hi con219, i tried yesterday that same scene with gladiator the normal edition and the artifacts were there, they didn't go away.
At least it feels good to know there's the extended edition, where there is none of the issues of the original and i can keep my progressive motion to medium.
Regards.

Hi Donmonte

Where are you from? US or UK.
What setup have you got at the moment.
Are you running the 989 on component or HDMI.
What are your settings?
I haven't really tweaked a lot of the settings. I didn't use DVE DVD to adjust blacks
etc. I am projecting onto 120" screen from PJTX100 via HDMI using a DVI adaptor. Believe me everyone who was watched DVD's on my system is simply impressed with the clarity and richness of the images I am getting.
Furthermore I have the DVD hooked up via ilink to my Pio VSX AX4avi (74 in US)
and the sound coming out of my 7.1 system is just awesome.
I really am surprised that the Pio is compared by even the knowlegable Kris Deering to the MEGA expensive DENON 5910. This unit is over three times the cost of the 989 where I come from. And yes I would expect it to be perfect but it isn't.
I am an Forensic Auditor by trade and one basic rule of life is that when you make comparisons you compare Green APPLES with green APPLES. The 5910 is a very expensive red variety and should not as is the case in the threads be treated as an "equal for comparison" to the 989.
If it (989) performed to the greatness of the 5910 then most of us would not be participating in this forum because it simply would not as with the 5910 be within our economic means.

Hi con219, I come from Lebanon and i have the pio 989avi and not the 79avi.
My settings if i remember them correctly ( i am at the office ):
720p to Domino 55m
Color space: 12bit component
Direct settings
Progressive motion to center
Pure Cinema: Auto 2
Detail to maximum
Black setup to 0
Hdmi detail to +1 from center ( any more than that and edge enhencement and ringing will become slightly noticeable, but if you set it anywhere less than center the picture will become soft and you will lose a lot of detail and sharpness. For movies that are very old ex. 20-30 years it may be ok to make it -1 from center because of the distracting noise that will be present in the backround, but for 99% of other movies it +1 from center will give you an incredibly detailed picture free of any side effects).
From where i'm from i could't find AVIA or DVE, so i calibrated my set using the THX tests found in many dvds ex. Revenge of the sith.
Con219, it is imperative that you calibrate your display using one of these methods before watching any more movies. If you found that your picture was great before, it will be amazing after believe me.
Regards

Hi con219, I come from Lebanon and i have the pio 989avi and not the 79avi.
My settings if i remember them correctly ( i am at the office ):
720p to Domino 55m
Color space: 12bit component
Direct settings
Progressive motion to center
Pure Cinema: Auto 2
Detail to maximum
Black setup to 0
Hdmi detail to +1 from center ( any more than that and edge enhencement and ringing will become slightly noticeable, but if you set it anywhere less than center the picture will become soft and you will lose a lot of detail and sharpness. For movies that are very old ex. 20-30 years it may be ok to make it -1 from center because of the distracting noise that will be present in the backround, but for 99% of other movies it +1 from center will give you an incredibly detailed picture free of any side effects).
From where i'm from i could't find AVIA or DVE, so i calibrated my set using the THX tests found in many dvds ex. Revenge of the sith.
Con219, it is imperative that you calibrate your display using one of these methods before watching any more movies. If you found that your picture was great before, it will be amazing after believe me.
Regards
Hi Donmonte (can I call you the lion of lebanon - a great bodybuilder and Mr Olympia)

Thankyou for your settings I will take them on board. I have the DV 989 as well. It was built in Feb 2006 and I am wondering if Pioneer upgraded the firmware in mine as from what I have been reading there are a lot of people in the USA who are seeing some artefacts that weren't noticable until Kris Deering brought out that report.
In my honest opinion I have only praise for this well built DVD player. The picture quality is outstanding and the sound quality connected by ilnk to my Pioneer vsxax4avi is something that you need to hear to experience because it is soooo good!
I am not a compulsive excessive scrutiniser (I do enough of that in my vocation)
but I have been looking out for many of the issues discussed in the threads with
"happy" dissapointment that I and many of my very impressed friends cannot identify these artefacts.
I am going to fire it up again and watch the movie "Crash"

My unit was built Nov 2005. How do you find the firmware version for the 79AVi? To my knowledge there was three different firmware versions for the 59AVi. However, no one ever could pinpoint the benefits of each succeeding firmware version for this prior unit. I really do hope the engineers at Pioneer took a second look at the 79AVi and addressed at least some of the reported problems/issues. Then again how much of the 79AVi unit issues are software/firmware related and how many problems are hardware related?

Pioneer firmware is on a chip , no real way of telling unless you have had the upgrade.
There upgrades are not all that great , at least the on that I has done on my DV-09 , only helped a couple of movies.
If your happy with the unit as-is , I would not get any firmware update unless you heard from Pioneer , I had to ask about my DV-09 and it was more costly than it was worth.
"Nobody asked , just my opinion " :D
Have fun,
Gary
O______and by the way , the player is screwed up , if you have a fixed pixel display , just pop-in a dvd with the THX Optimizer and go to the aspect test screen and on the right side the line going from top to bottom is jagged , the one on the left is a-ok.
Now is that something Pioneer will recall the units for and do a fix ?
Nope :(
It`s not a health hazard , It`s a 1K player with a bug , sad but true.

Hi con219, to be honest with you; you will probably never see those artefacts on real time viewing. The tests performed by Kriss Deering were on test paterns. From what i recall, Arcam players perform badly on these tests also but are some of the most respected players around when it comes to playing some actual dvds.
The player is amazing, have no doubt about that.

What is the US retail on this unit?

The Pio website says $1K.

Just talked to a Magnolia Store they say $1199 but it's on sale for considerably less.

It's $1500CDN. I live near the border so I'll be buying the US of A

What is the US retail on this unit?

The Pio website says $1K.

Just talked to a Magnolia Store they say $1199 but it's on sale for considerably less.

It's $1500CDN which is ludicrous. I live near the border so I'll be buying in the US of A

What is the US retail on this unit?

The Pio website says $1K.

Just talked to a Magnolia Store they say $1199 but it's on sale for considerably less.

It's $1500CDN which is ludicrous. I live near the border so I'll be buying in the US of A


Bought mine from Magnolia with discount off of the $1000.00 list. Found Magnolia willing to discount more so than Tweeter. Tweeter would not discount as it was a special order for them in my area. Needless to say I take my business to Magnolia now after over 20 years of doing business with Tweeter.

Bill

When did you buy Bill?

The Magnolia I spoke to today (Lynnwood, Washington) said list was $1199.

Maybe just a ploy to make the "Sale" price look better.

When did you buy Bill?

The Magnolia I spoke to today (Lynnwood, Washington) said list was $1199.

Maybe just a ploy to make the "Sale" price look better.

Bought it on Christmas Eve at a store in Dedham, Mass. I'm not sure why the list went up $200.00 but at the time I bought it was $999.00. At that the time I bought it was very hard to find one. Dedham was the closest store that had one, over an hour drive from So. Maine. Shop around maybe there are other Elite dealers in the area.

Bill

Bought it on Christmas Eve at a store in Dedham, Mass.



Nice Christmas present!!!

Hi con219, to be honest with you; you will probably never see those artefacts on real time viewing. The tests performed by Kriss Deering were on test paterns. From what i recall, Arcam players perform badly on these tests also but are some of the most respected players around when it comes to playing some actual dvds.
The player is amazing, have no doubt about that.

So true, if you don't scrutinize these machines with test patterns, you will find that the 79 is really as good as it gets around a grand. The Arcam will never measure the "best" under laboratory conditions but is a dam solid DVD player as well.

Hi Fellas
I bought mine for $1120 AUD which adjusted for exchange rate equates to $829 USD
this price included an extended four year warranty taking the overall warranty period to 5 years.
I have toyed around with the players settings and Delmonte if you are reading this the images look almost 3D now.
Had my mates over last night (with their wives of course- nb. mates in Australia is the equivalent of friend or pal in US- so I'm not a fan of Broakback Mountain and I certainly don't bat for the other-side) and they were so impressed with the images we were getting
from the movie Wedding Crashers that two of them went shopping for the DV 989 today.
Finally I am glad that common sense has prevailled and this extraordinary piece of electronics is finally getting the praise is rightfully deserves.

Take care and until next time

I have already mentioned way back in this thread that people should put things in perspective when evaluating dvd players.

Problem is most testers for some reason do not have a weighing criteria with regards to problems found in dvd players when they do tests. All dvd players have problems if one starts nitpicking but real world problems (as opposed to problems found running a particular test pattern) like Audio Video sync issues and Macroblocking should be given more weight than the problem found in the 79Avi which so far manifested itself on only one scene in Gladiator.

As for me, I have been enjoying the movies I watch on the 79Avi this past couple of months... The last few dvds I watched (Pride & Prejudice, Corpse Bride, Wallace & Gromet, Good Night and Good Luck, Ice Harvest) were almost HD like on this player.

I have already mentioned way back in this thread that people should put things in perspective when evaluating dvd players.

Problem is most testers for some reason do not have a weighing criteria with regards to problems found in dvd players when they do tests. All dvd players have problems if one starts nitpicking but real world problems (as opposed to problems found running a particular test pattern) like Audio Video sync issues and Macroblocking should be given more weight than the problem found in the 79Avi which so far manifested itself on only one scene in Gladiator.

As for me, I have been enjoying the movies I watch on the 79Avi this past couple of months... The last few dvds I watched (Pride & Prejudice, Corpse Bride, Wallace & Gromet, Good Night and Good Luck, Ice Harvest) were almost HD like on this player.

I am dying to make this "tongue in cheek" comment so her it goes.
If you really want a DVD player to watch TEST PATTERNS perform at their very best then buy the DENON 5910..... after you have mortgaged the family home to pay for it of course.
However if you want a really well built DVD player to play and enjoy DVD movies in tremendous detail and colour with none of the MBE (that is in your face with Denon Players or any DVD player with the dreaded faroudja ) at a reasonable price then I can with no hesitation recommend the 989 (79). PS the special edition of Gladiator does not produce the "one half of a second" zebra artefact That people have spent hours and hours on this forum discussing. So buying this edition of the DVD could save people a fortune in time and money.

Con219 said it perfectly. I have been enjoying a fantastic picture and sound with the 79avi. I have it hooked up to my Panasonic ae900 on a 106" screen. It is the 6th dvd player I have owned and without a doubt the best. Friends who come over to watch movies are in awe of the picture and sound.

I join the 79 fan club. I agree with ciclocommuter and in my view this "test pattern" should have a very low weight because NOBODY in real world is unhappy with this player. BTW, the famous Gladiator scene is a problem for 99% of the players and not something that only the 79 fails. I have 4 players, different brands, and all show the zebra. Set the 79 in the lowest progress motion and forget about this cadence test that has no effect on human beigns.

Sergio

Is the YC delay an issue for anyone?

Is the YC delay an issue for anyone?

Not for me. I only use the HDMI at 1080i and everything looks pretty close to HD with a nice DVD like the new Titanic. The only thing that I can say negative about the 79 is that when using HDMI detail to zero you lose A LOT of detail and have the "clayface" effect. Setting HDMI detail to anything but zero fixes the problem but creates a bit of EE on my Mitsu 73927. The 79 doesn't come perfect out of the box and requires a little play with the settings. I guess this fact helped Kris not like it so much since he said everything was at default level when he tested it.

Sergio

Is the YC delay an issue for anyone?

YC? vs MBE. Like I said I purchased the player to watch DVD's not TEST PATTERNS etc etc . MBE is something I have seen with my own eyes on my friends Denon 3910 ....and man it is noticable like I said it's in your face.
IF YC is there...I and everyone who has watched my player including the Denon 3910 owner ( who went shopping for a 989 after watching movies on my player ) haven't noticed it So empirically it is not an issue.
But if it concerns you then I suggest spending a small fortune and purchase the 5910 or better still put the money in a bank term deposit and go to the movies on the interest (there will be plenty of it )that the invested sum will earn you. Either option will guarantee a near flawless TEST PATTERN and maybe if you choose to go to the Movies you'll even get to watch an actual movie.

I am dying to make this "tongue in cheek" comment so her it goes.
If you really want a DVD player to watch TEST PATTERNS perform at their very best then buy the DENON 5910..... after you have mortgaged the family home to pay for it of course.
However if you want a really well built DVD player to play and enjoy DVD movies in tremendous detail and colour with none of the MBE (that is in your face with Denon Players or any DVD player with the dreaded faroudja ) at a reasonable price then I can with no hesitation recommend the 989 (79). PS the special edition of Gladiator
does not produce the "one half of a second" zebra artefact That people have spent hours and hours on this forum discussing. So buying this edition of the DVD could save people a fortune in time and money.

Hey, great advertising idea for a commercial!

Scene opens on a room full of HT geeks watching test patterns on a Denon 5910 that sits on a marble pedestal. All sorts of oohing and aahing over the uber-pricey 5910 and the host is strutting his stuff and cabbage-patching. Cut to scene of him ushering visitors out the door at the end of the evning. He closes the door, grabs some popcorn, and pulls out his copy of Finding Nemo. He looks around guiltily to make sure no one is watching, and opens a hidden panel on the equipment rack to reveal a Pioneer 79avi. A smile grows on his face. Cut to scene of him relaxing on couch with big ole' sh*t-eating grin... ;)

To our last group of posters - Well Said ;)

E

Hey, great advertising idea for a commercial!

Scene opens on a room full of HT geeks watching test patterns on a Denon 5910 that sits on a marble pedestal. All sorts of oohing and aahing over the uber-pricey 5910 and the host is strutting his stuff and cabbage-patching. Cut to scene of him ushering visitors out the door at the end of the evning. He closes the door, grabs some popcorn, and pulls out his copy of Finding Nemo. He looks around guiltily to make sure no one is watching, and opens a hidden panel on the equipment rack to reveal a Pioneer 79avi. A smile grows on his face. Cut to scene of him relaxing on couch with big ole' sh*t-eating grin... ;)

Here Here

Well said. This is bloody hilarious, I don't know why Pioneer don't go with it.
But then Denon , Marantz and Onkyo are valued customers of Pioneers as Kris Deering has said that many high end products are re badged Pioneer components. He didn't actually mention any specific brand but... hey we all know they are notorious for buying a lot of Pio Tech anyway as they haven't got the "coin" to invest in R&D at the scale that Pioneer do.
(refer to his bench mark test on the onkyo sp502 for the non believers out there.)

I Bought My 79avi Through The Digital Bits Power Buy At $950 Shipped. The Best Player I've Owned Yet!

I am dying to make this "tongue in cheek" comment so her it goes.
If you really want a DVD player to watch TEST PATTERNS perform at their very best then buy the DENON 5910..... after you have mortgaged the family home to pay for it of course.
However if you want a really well built DVD player to play and enjoy DVD movies in tremendous detail and colour with none of the MBE (that is in your face with Denon Players or any DVD player with the dreaded faroudja ) at a reasonable price then I can with no hesitation recommend the 989 (79). PS the special edition of Gladiator does not produce the "one half of a second" zebra artefact That people have spent hours and hours on this forum discussing. So buying this edition of the DVD could save people a fortune in time and money.

I have gone head to head with many trying to make this exact point and rarely has anyone stepped up to the plate to back me up in the past. Part of the "problem" has been that the testing done by Secrets has been incorrectly interpreted as the benchmark for everyday performance under everyday circumstances. As soon people can admit that they are not wearing a lab coat and hooking their players up to machines that "blip", you open yourself up to more choices that may lead to greater happiness as a DVD player owner. Denon may be the champ of the DVD testing world but unfortunately for me, that didn't help my cause. I have owned 5 different Denons and ALL of them were picky with discs, had various reliability issues, all sounded average to poor with music and all lacked basic features that make life easier. I'll concede that maybe I was just unlucky 5 out of 5 times and certainly don't want to pick on Denon because I know that the PQ is always good and I know there are many satisfied owners out there. But I just can't see the benefit of trading off between a DVD player that does well in a few laboratory tests vs. purchasing something like the Pioneer 79avi which offers an amazing level of best build, features and perhaps even music performance for the money. Further, with the Pioneer, the only trade you are really making is accepting some largely undetectable split second flaws vs. the potential of macro blocking, green push, etc. The big picture is that you are splitting hairs with PQ among these players this late in the game, the Pioneer for under a grand represents just how much you can get for your money.

Interesting. I think I was the first one to say that in the real world the Pioneer DV-79AVI was the best possible player for the money and that the cadence test had no visible effect with a movie DVD. I also mentioned several times that all my dvd players (4 different models 3 different brands) also showed the same zebra problem with Gladiator. I chalenged 59 owners to go through the Gladiator scene and at least one of them confirmed what I already knew: The same zebra effect. Despite all of this , I felt like a stupid because many people came up with an inconditional support to Kris opinion and the Secret Test. I remember people saying that I didn't even know the difference between film and video mode.

I do respect Kris opinion and his work and I can't compare his knowledge with mine but the truth is , after more than 3 months, nobody came up with a real case that can show any major flaw with the 79.

Sergio

Another happy 79avi owner here. 2 months of ownership and I dont think a better player for watching movies has been released yet! Especially at this pricepoint!

Interesting. I think I was the first one to say that in the real world the Pioneer DV-79AVI was the best possible player for the money and that the cadence test had no visible effect with a movie DVD. I also mentioned several times that all my dvd players (4 different models 3 different brands) also showed the same zebra problem with Gladiator. I chalenged 59 owners to go through the Gladiator scene and at least one of them confirmed what I already knew: The same zebra effect. Despite all of this , I felt like a stupid because many people came up with an inconditional support to Kris opinion and the Secret Test. I remember people saying that I didn't even know the difference between film and video mode.

I do respect Kris opinion and his work and I can't compare his knowledge with mine but the truth is , after more than 3 months, nobody came up with a real case that can show any major flaw with the 79.

Sergio

Sergio,

I agree 100%. I as well have gone back and forth with a few members who base all their thoughts on the Secrets tests. I would not feel stupid as I do not know the difference between film and video mode either. I might not be to gifted as to the technical workings of DVDs and DVD players but I know a good picture when I see one. I have throughly enjoyed the 79avi with video and audio material.

I respect Kris and the work he does but I will not base my HT purchases solely on test results or magazine reviews. I find the members of this forum who report their opinions on equipment I am interested in as more important as they are using it in real world conditions. I would say all the negative thoughts on the 79avi came after the Secrets test results. But the owners of the 79avi know the quality of this player.

Bill

Sergio,

I agree 100%. I as well have gone back and forth with a few members who base all their thoughts on the Secrets tests. I would not feel stupid as I do not know the difference between film and video mode either. I might not be to gifted as to the technical workings of DVDs and DVD players but I know a good picture when I see one. I have throughly enjoyed the 79avi with video and audio material.

I respect Kris and the work he does but I will not base my HT purchases solely on test results or magazine reviews. I find the members of this forum who report their opinions on equipment I am interested in as more important as they are using it in real world conditions. I would say all the negative thoughts on the 79avi came after the Secrets test results. But the owners of the 79avi know the quality of this player.

Bill

All you have to do is read the chronology of this thread from the beginning. First, you got alot of people purchasing this player and being really impressed. Then Kris suggests that there may be a "flaw" and takes off for a few days, that left the door wide open for all the experts to step up to the plate and expose the issue. Plenty of silence and ill fated guessing, Kris then reappears and spells the issue out. Everybody who bought a Denon rejoices, all the experts who don't own the Pioneer reappear and now have plenty to say. Many 79 owners step up and just can't see the "flaw" as an issue but those who incorrectly use Secrets as ammunition to re-affirm their decision to choose another player take a few more parting jabs, the thread settles back down into mostly happy owners sharing their good fortune for selecting this DVD player. End of story.
S tell tale sign was that Kris through out the suggestion that he was able to diagnose a "flaw"

Interesting. I think I was the first one to say that in the real world the Pioneer DV-79AVI was the best possible player for the money and that the cadence test had no visible effect with a movie DVD. I also mentioned several times that all my dvd players (4 different models 3 different brands) also showed the same zebra problem with Gladiator. I chalenged 59 owners to go through the Gladiator scene and at least one of them confirmed what I already knew: The same zebra effect. Despite all of this , I felt like a stupid because many people came up with an inconditional support to Kris opinion and the Secret Test. I remember people saying that I didn't even know the difference between film and video mode.

I do respect Kris opinion and his work and I can't compare his knowledge with mine but the truth is , after more than 3 months, nobody came up with a real case that can show any major flaw with the 79.

Sergio

Guys

So many people on this site and other sites all over the world have rung so much praise over this player.
It must be obvious by now that Kris Deering's methodology in testing DVD players is not upto "real world" applicability.
I recall an earlier forum member mention weighting the results of his parameters
in his testing. This I feel must be done as I will put a wager on the fact that many people have endured a great deal of stress when they read his report at face value.
I do not know Kris personally and I make no apology if what I write is not politically correct but I will say that the best analogy I can come up with the current testing methods he is employing is that if he is using something akin to a "Liar detection test" . And solely on the results a lot of people including himself would judge an individual as to whether he/she was guilty or not guilty.
I think it's time Kris re-evalutes his testing criterea or he qualifies the impact of his results in real world applications.
It's time that opinions of thousands of extremely pleased users of the 989 (79) the Arcam etc etc finally highlight the failings of a testing system that does not reflect the real world. I think I have discovered a real FLAW and it's definitely not the 79.

All you have to do is read the chronology of this thread from the beginning. First, you got alot of people purchasing this player and being really impressed. Then Kris suggests that there may be a "flaw" and takes off for a few days, that left the door wide open for all the experts to step up to the plate and expose the issue. Plenty of silence and ill fated guessing, Kris then reappears and spells the issue out. Everybody who bought a Denon rejoices, all the experts who don't own the Pioneer reappear and now have plenty to say. Many 79 owners step up and just can't see the "flaw" as an issue but those who incorrectly use Secrets as ammunition to re-affirm their decision to choose another player take a few more parting jabs, the thread settles back down into mostly happy owners sharing their good fortune for selecting this DVD player. End of story.
S tell tale sign was that Kris through out the suggestion that he was able to diagnose a "flaw"

TOUCH DOWN!!!!!!!!

TOUCH DOWN!!!!!!!!

and a 2 point conversion!

I think everyone is a little too harsh towards Kris. He never said that his test was anything other then proof of the deinterlacing quality of the player he was testing. I know for a fact that the deinterlacing of the Pio 79 is not as good as perhaps my Denon 2900 with SDI to my Lumagen HDP. Many people probably dont care or just feel that the difference is just too little to make any difference. But for those that see deintelacing artifacts usually just hate it and "keep" seeing it in scene after scene. Note I am just saying deinterlacing and nothing about colours or real world vibrancy which I might say is very brillant on the Pio 79. '

Before I get blasted please note that I have both the Denon 2900 as well as the Pio 79. I hate the fact that anything other then zero gives edge enhancement as I absolutely hate edge enhancement and zero hdmi detail is just results in clayface among other problems. As for sound quality, I feel the Denon 2900 is rather warm sounding and the Pio is much more detailed and true to the recording. Again different strokes for different folks.

Now comparing like to like meaning Denon 3910 and Pio 79. Those who prefer a "better" deinterlacer and tube like sound (warm) would go with the Denon 3910 and those who prefer more pop and vibrant colours and detailed sound would probably go with the Pio 79. Lets not bring the 5910 into the picture. I have saw both this players in my friends place who has both for 6 months now and for picture wise, it is just no contest. 5910 all the way. Noise reduction, great scaling, fantastic video as well as film deinterlacing all in one fine package. Although at a fairly steep price over the 3910 or Pio 79.

Oliver

100% agree with that post. Also a lot of the time it depends on the previous player someone has owned, the 989's deinterlace/HDMI detail issues are only going to be noticed if you come from a player that was better in those respects.

John.

I think everyone is a little too harsh towards Kris. He never said that his test was anything other then proof of the deinterlacing quality of the player he was testing. I know for a fact that the deinterlacing of the Pio 79 is not as good as perhaps my Denon 2900 with SDI to my Lumagen HDP. Many people probably dont care or just feel that the difference is just too little to make any difference. But for those that see deintelacing artifacts usually just hate it and "keep" seeing it in scene after scene. Note I am just saying deinterlacing and nothing about colours or real world vibrancy which I might say is very brillant on the Pio 79. '

Before I get blasted please note that I have both the Denon 2900 as well as the Pio 79. I hate the fact that anything other then zero gives edge enhancement as I absolutely hate edge enhancement and zero hdmi detail is just results in clayface among other problems. As for sound quality, I feel the Denon 2900 is rather warm sounding and the Pio is much more detailed and true to the recording. Again different strokes for different folks.

Now comparing like to like meaning Denon 3910 and Pio 79. Those who prefer a "better" deinterlacer and tube like sound (warm) would go with the Denon 3910 and those who prefer more pop and vibrant colours and detailed sound would probably go with the Pio 79. Lets not bring the 5910 into the picture. I have saw both this players in my friends place who has both for 6 months now and for picture wise, it is just no contest. 5910 all the way. Noise reduction, great scaling, fantastic video as well as film deinterlacing all in one fine package. Although at a fairly steep price over the 3910 or Pio 79.

Oliver


Oliver are you serious!

The Macro Blocking effects on the Denon's you described above is IMHO any many who have seen it including my friend who is embarrased by it whenever we point it out when watching a movie (not test patterns).... so obvious that if it was a trait of the PIo 79 Kris and the "Denon Boys" would be using it to disparage the player however I have never seen any article written by Kris Deering refer to this "in your face" flaw as just that IT IS A MAJOR FLAW because DENON persists to use the Faroudja.

Kris's tests are a benchmark. He and the Secrets folks test the same obstacle tests on every player, with the same systems and the same software; and go through quite a bit of explanation if something was done differently due to the players quirks (i.e set it to auto2, etc). They have a large writeup about their methodology and it clearly states that the benchmark was developed to compare players under intense testing, and to point out possible issues that MAY crop up in real world viewing. I'm afraid many of you are making it something it isn't.

Personally I find the tests to be very worthwhile in helping me prioritize which players I'll evaluate. From there, it's all about your wallet, your display device and your eyes...three VERY important variables.

Con219,
Take a deep breath. No need to shout. If the display device is not prone to MB (like a CRT) then the Denon's are great candidates for evaluation. This has been pointed out hundreds of times. And on the 5910....well, just take a look at one sometime.

Con219,
Take a deep breath. No need to shout. If the display device is not prone to MB (like a CRT) then the Denon's are great candidates for evaluation. This has been pointed out hundreds of times. And on the 5910....well, just take a look at one sometime.
Hi Ted

Believe me I am as cool as a cucumber. I don't shout that much.

Yes I will take some time out to look at the 5910 just like I would to look at the
Mclaren F1 road car. Both I have no doubt are well engineered pieces of human ingenuity but way outside my and many folk's price range.
I suppose it's also all about the law of diminishing returns as far as the 5910 is concerned. I can't say that for the McLaren though.

I keep seeing the term "display dependent" used whenever the MB issue comes up.
Can someone define this for me?

Are we talking LCD vs plasma vs LCD RP vs DLP etc. ??

Or does it goes as far as certain brands and/or models?

I have an Hitachi 50VS810 LCD RP

Kris's tests are a benchmark. He and the Secrets folks test the same obstacle tests on every player, with the same systems and the same software; and go through quite a bit of explanation if something was done differently due to the players quirks (i.e set it to auto2, etc). They have a large writeup about their methodology and it clearly states that the benchmark was developed to compare players under intense testing, and to point out possible issues that MAY crop up in real world viewing. I'm afraid many of you are making it something it isn't.

Personally I find the tests to be very worthwhile in helping me prioritize which players I'll evaluate. From there, it's all about your wallet, your display device and your eyes...three VERY important variables.

I am not knocking the tests and Kris's efforts, I think its a great read. Time and time again Kris himself has stated that the players in this range are all very close, the nature of his tests are "picky" and that he does not intent his conclusions to serve as a buying guide. Thats pretty much it folks. Is using the benchmark a worthwhile tool as a buying resource? Perhaps, but the trade off of gaining a more sound DVD player in the lab might cost you in other areas (as I have found with my 5 Denons). I think the Benchmark is taken largely out of context, it is often used to say "mine is better than yours" and as evident in this thread, it only served to temporarily derail enthusiasm for a very good DVD player.

I keep seeing the term "display dependent" used whenever the MB issue comes up.
Can someone define this for me?

Are we talking LCD vs plasma vs LCD RP vs DLP etc. ??

Or does it goes as far as certain brands and/or models?

Correct me Ted but aren't you talking about obsolete CRT systems which incidentally are component video equipped and don't have HDMI connnections?

Correct me Ted but aren't you talking about obsolete CRT systems which incidentally are component video equipped and don't have HDMI connnections?

My Runco 930 HD crt (ceiling mounted pj) is RGBHV and is not obsolete. HDMI-to-RGBHV conversion works fine, thank you. I will put its black levels and contrast up against anything (except better stacked Runco 980 Ultras..... :) ). My point was that I don't have MB issues at 120" and there are many hi-end HT's with or without digital pj's that don't exhibit it either.

Sorry about the "shout" comment but that's all I hear when I see a sentence or long phrase all capitalized. Too early in am to shout. :)

Rang,
Dunno the MB list but will search. Plasmas are the worst, I believe....not sure, though.

I am not knocking the tests and Kris's efforts, I think its a great read. Time and time again Kris himself has stated that the players in this range are all very close, the nature of his tests are "picky" and that he does not intent his conclusions to serve as a buying guide. Thats pretty much it folks. Is using the benchmark a worthwhile tool as a buying resource? Perhaps, but the trade off of gaining a more sound DVD player in the lab might cost you in other areas (as I have found with my 5 Denons). I think the Benchmark is taken largely out of context, it is often used to say "mine is better than yours" and as evident in this thread, it only served to temporarily derail enthusiasm for a very good DVD player.

Hi Soldonandy

What you say is succinct and I for one have no further constructive input on this subject matter.
I admire my 989 for the visual and audible enjoyment it gives me and will stand
by it as the best DVD player for the price and all said and done what opponents of this player think really has no consequence to me.

I think everyone is a little too harsh towards Kris. He never said that his test was anything other then proof of the deinterlacing quality of the player he was testing. I know for a fact that the deinterlacing of the Pio 79 is not as good as perhaps my Denon 2900 with SDI to my Lumagen HDP. Many people probably dont care or just feel that the difference is just too little to make any difference. But for those that see deintelacing artifacts usually just hate it and "keep" seeing it in scene after scene. Note I am just saying deinterlacing and nothing about colours or real world vibrancy which I might say is very brillant on the Pio 79. '

Before I get blasted please note that I have both the Denon 2900 as well as the Pio 79. I hate the fact that anything other then zero gives edge enhancement as I absolutely hate edge enhancement and zero hdmi detail is just results in clayface among other problems. As for sound quality, I feel the Denon 2900 is rather warm sounding and the Pio is much more detailed and true to the recording. Again different strokes for different folks.

Now comparing like to like meaning Denon 3910 and Pio 79. Those who prefer a "better" deinterlacer and tube like sound (warm) would go with the Denon 3910 and those who prefer more pop and vibrant colours and detailed sound would probably go with the Pio 79. Lets not bring the 5910 into the picture. I have saw both this players in my friends place who has both for 6 months now and for picture wise, it is just no contest. 5910 all the way. Noise reduction, great scaling, fantastic video as well as film deinterlacing all in one fine package. Although at a fairly steep price over the 3910 or Pio 79.

Oliver

My comments often get interpreted as being against Secrets when the reality is that I recognize it for what Kris says it is as stated in my last post. I am interested in reading the Benchmark like many and I think the effort that goes into it is fantastic, additionally, I think Kris conducts himself as a gentleman and generally does way more good than harm (if any). The only absolute in all Kris's testing and all of our experiences is that no player is perfect, especially in a laboratory environment. With that said, some are certainly better than others but it is my contention that the day to day performance under real world circumstances is the aspect that should be scrutinized. And, if you are looking for buying advice, the best gauge would be to read through a thread on a particular DVD player and see who is happy or not happy and why. The Secrets results are secondary at best, to keep reading the same regurgitated dribble about cue issues, split second flaws, cadence, or whatever serves the means of a minority who can diagnose these kinds of things but you'd think it was much more. This particular thread was a great opportunity for the "experts" to step up to the plate and educate us and it just didn't happen. But you'll always hear the counter argument "even if we can't diagnose it, the fact is that once you know what to look for, you can't ignore it." My suggestion is that if you are that sensitive, ignore Secrets, you may end up with great DVD player anyway.

If pure video quality is your main objective, and passing benchmarks are all that you base your buying decisions on, then I would suggest cheaper alternatives than Denon or Pioneer.

If you want the best bang for buck universal player that can do justice to both movies and music then the 79 is the best choice on the market, IMO.

In regards to the Pioneer 79/Denon 5910 comparisons: they don't really compete with each other based on asking prices. I doubt a shopper of either player would consider the other as a competitor. I certainly didn't. A better competitior to the 79 would be the Denon 3910.

Jim

Before I get blasted please note that I have both the Denon 2900 as well as the Pio 79. I hate the fact that anything other then zero gives edge enhancement as I absolutely hate edge enhancement and zero hdmi detail is just results in clayface among other problems.
Oliver

I agree 100% with you. As I said several times , this is the only real world flaw I can see with the 79. I leave my HDMI DETAIL one step right to the minimum and this is enough to solve the "clayface". Yes, there is some EE but very little. I prefer the little EE than the clayface.

This is the kind of comment I would expect from a professional like Kris and it doesn't mean I didn't appeciated his other comments but ,IMHO, he made this cadence test too much of a big deal and suggested that the Gladiator scene was something particular to the 79 when we now know that even the 59 shows the same result.

Sergio

Oliver are you serious!

The Macro Blocking effects on the Denon's you described above is IMHO any many who have seen it including my friend who is embarrased by it whenever we point it out when watching a movie (not test patterns).... so obvious that if it was a trait of the PIo 79 Kris and the "Denon Boys" would be using it to disparage the player however I have never seen any article written by Kris Deering refer to this "in your face" flaw as just that IT IS A MAJOR FLAW because DENON persists to use the Faroudja.


Thats why I said different strokes for different people. Many of my friends are using the 3910 and 2910 and only a couple are seeing the marcoblocking. I know I hate it and see it clearly. Thats why I am using the denon 2900 and did not upgrade and got the Pio 79 as a upgrade but decided to keep both :p

I know Kris has said many times that he has seen it and it affects certain display. So check it out and decide if you see it and decide if you want to keep the player if it affects your display. Not defending him or anything but I know and seen him say this many times before.

Oliver

I keep seeing the term "display dependent" used whenever the MB issue comes up.
Can someone define this for me?

Are we talking LCD vs plasma vs LCD RP vs DLP etc. ??

Or does it goes as far as certain brands and/or models?

I have an Hitachi 50VS810 LCD RP


Unfortuntely no clear way to say for sure other then to try it on your display and see it... or not....

Plasma are one of the most prone to MB though it seems.

Oliver

I agree 100% with you. As I said several times , this is the only real world flaw I can see with the 79. I leave my HDMI DETAIL one step right to the minimum and this is enough to solve the "clayface". Yes, there is some EE but very little. I prefer the little EE than the clayface.


Sergio

In HDMI detail, anything other than center and i lose a lot of detail in my setup.
For exemple pause to any screen containing a close up of a face, and decrease from center and immediately details like facial pores or individual strends of hair become washed out or disappear completely. But you need to pause the image to notice the extraordinary difference in detail. I only decrease it one step from center for some very old movies where noise in the backround would be reduced.
This is actually my favorite slider from the player, it is amazing how it picks up even the slightest details of an image.
Yes maybe in tests it shows some slight ringing, but i'm more than satisfied with the results i get in return. This is the slider imho that will show you the benefits of HDMI over component.

Regards.

...
This is actually my favorite slider from the player, it is amazing how it picks up even the slightest details of an image.
Yes maybe in tests it shows some slight ringing, but i'm more than satisfied with the results i get in return. This is the slider imho that will show you the benefits of HDMI over component.

Regards.

I find it isn't possible to come even close to the level of sharpness achieved on the denons on by PJ without introducing unnacceptable levels of ringing. MBE is the trade off on the denon's though...

One other thing that definitely has an impact on the sharpness issue is the size and resolution the display device. My 800x480 42 inch plasma actually looks sharper when fed from the 989 than my old player, the ruby projected onto a 100inch screen on the other hand its very clearly in favour of the faroudja based player.

John.

The display , as you guys say, plays a very important roll as far as sharpness/detail is concerned. My Mitsubishi 73927 is VERY sharp and I have to leave sharpness close to zero. That's why i am happy with HDMI detail just one notch to the right. What I think is incredible is the difference when HDMI detail is set to zero: picture gets unwatchable in my case. Setting HDMI detail to the middle or higher position makes everybody look like an angel with a terrible EE.

BTW, what do you guys use as colorspace with HDMI? I use components 12 bits but honestly I can't see a lot of difference from RGB.

Sergio

12 bits/422, though the difference is very subtle relative to straight component or extended RGB.

Whats the viewing angle line on the 73927?

John

The display , as you guys say, plays a very important roll as far as sharpness/detail is concerned. My Mitsubishi 73927 is VERY sharp and I have to leave sharpness close to zero. That's why i am happy with HDMI detail just one notch to the right. What I think is incredible is the difference when HDMI detail is set to zero: picture gets unwatchable in my case. Setting HDMI detail to the middle or higher position makes everybody look like an angel with a terrible EE.

BTW, what do you guys use as colorspace with HDMI? I use components 12 bits but honestly I can't see a lot of difference from RGB.

Sergio Does your Mits do 10bit video? (12 bit processing)? Also, 12bit component output on HDMI is just another way of saying YCbCr 4:2:2. There are 12bits sent for each component color, but only 10 bits contain video info, the top 2 are zeros. The 79avi does 10bit video at max.

larry

Does your Mits do 10bit video? (12 bit processing)? Also, 12bit component output on HDMI is just another way of saying YCbCr 4:2:2. There are 12bits sent for each component color, but only 10 bits contain video info, the top 2 are zeros. The 79avi does 10bit video at max.

larry

I tried to have this queston answered to no avail. There is no info on the Mitsubishi site about 12 bit processing and nobody seems to know it at the Mitsubishi 1080P DLP board.

Sergio

I think Kris conducts himself as a gentleman and generally does way more good than harm (if any). The only absolute in all Kris's testing and all of our experiences is that no player is perfect, especially in a laboratory environment. With that said, some are certainly better than others but it is my contention that the day to day performance under real world circumstances is the aspect that should be scrutinized.

My suggestion is that if you are that sensitive, ignore Secrets, you may end up with great DVD player anyway.

I know I said that I would make no further comment on this subject however
as Soldonandy and many on this forum have pointed out or have suggested is written in bold above.

These type of reviews suggested are conducted by CNET and What HiFi amongst others. They have given the 989 (79) a very high ranking based on "real world"
viewing.
I think Sol above has hit the nail on the head. The Secrets Test's are something that people obsessed by Test Pattern performance statistics can look forward to and digest.. I will even go as far as referring these people as HT Geeks.
Thank god that they are only in the minority and people like myself have been awaken by the fact they have no influence on my purchase on the DV 989 which incidentally I based on the Real World reviews and going out and seeing the product myself.
If you guys knew me as my friends do ...I do not depart with my hard earned cash as easily as some. Therefore prior to purchasing...I read the Secrets review and all the forums on this player plus Cnet reviews etc etc . I then went out and auditoned/scrutised it on about10 occasions by watching full length movies on it on a VDU I already own. My verdict ......I was sold.
VIVA 989 (79)

I agree 100% with you. As I said several times , this is the only real world flaw I can see with the 79. I leave my HDMI DETAIL one step right to the minimum and this is enough to solve the "clayface". Yes, there is some EE but very little. I prefer the little EE than the clayface.

This is the kind of comment I would expect from a professional like Kris and it doesn't mean I didn't appeciated his other comments but ,IMHO, he made this cadence test too much of a big deal and suggested that the Gladiator scene was something particular to the 79 when we now know that even the 59 shows the same result.

Sergio
The 59 and 79 do not show the same behaviour on that Gladiator scene. While the 59 shows some cadence trip-up (the same as most other players) the 79 seems to be innovating, suggesting maybe some new algorythm developped specifically for the 79, as Kris states that he didn't yet see this kind of behaviour on any player.

This does not necessarily mean that in everyday use, people will notice a difference, as this forum has amply proven :)

It would be interesting to know what exactly is happening on the technical side, as I don't think the Pioneeer guys just develop new algorythms on purpose to infuriate their buyer base.

And do not kidd yourselves: the only reason players keep improving is people like Kris "harassing" the companys who make them. So the last thing you'll want to do is write off Secrets work as irrelevant to you, only because right now it, well, might be irrelevant to you. This might change with your next player and who knows what corners the manufactorers will try to cut in upcoming HD players if Secrets doesn't keep up the good job. Lets cheer them on, I say.

The 59 and 79 do not show the same behaviour on that Gladiator scene. While the 59 shows some cadence trip-up (the same as most other players) the 79 seems to be innovating, suggesting maybe some new algorythm developped specifically for the 79, as Kris states that he didn't yet see this kind of behaviour on any player.

This does not necessarily mean that in everyday use, people will notice a difference, as this forum has amply proven :)
It would be interesting to know what exactly is happening on the technical side, as I don't think the Pioneeer guys just develop new algorythms on purpose to infuriate their buyer base.

And do not kidd yourselves: the only reason players keep improving is people like Kris "harassing" the companys who make them. So the last thing you'll want to do is write off Secrets work as irrelevant to you, only because right now it, well, might be irrelevant to you. This might change with your next player and who knows what corners the manufactorers will try to cut in upcoming HD players if Secrets doesn't keep up the good job. Lets cheer them on, I say.

Hi
Yes it's me again... really am enjoying this forum.
I think you have answered that yourself (refer highlight above).
The fact that it isn't noticable to 99% of the population in real time viewing will result in no action by Manufacturer's of this equipment at this price point.
If on the other hand the Mega Expensive 5910 was displaying an artefact that 1% of the population were complaining about then I would put money on it it would get rectified. This is because that 1% of the population represents the total market for such an expensive DVD Player.
As a professional accountant and auditor who has sat in board rooms of many
Corporations in my professional opinion this is simply "economic rationalism"

Hi
Yes it's me again... really am enjoying this forum.
I think you have answered that yourself (refer highlight above).
The fact that it isn't noticable to 99% of the population in real time viewing will result in no action by Manufacturer's of this equipment at this price point.
If on the other hand the Mega Expensive 5910 was displaying an artefact that 1% of the population were complaining about then I would put money on it it would get rectified. This is because that 1% of the population represents the total market for such an expensive DVD Player.
As a professional accountant and auditor who has sat in board rooms of many
Corporations in my professional opinion this is simply "economic rationalism"


I think that Gladiator flaw is not the only problem with the deinterlacing of the Pio 79. It trips up on quite a number of other scene. I see it and many others see it too. Dont even get me started that you need to look at your screen to enable repeat tracks or the long delay between DVD layers. But hey it is defintely more fuss free with regards to scratched DVD which makes me want to throw away my Denon sometimes.

But yes for 90% or more of the public, they may not notice it and thats fine. But at this price point of US$1K or so, I think we have every right to ask for "better" performance. Note that this model is not really for the public. The general public buys mainly DVD players in the US$150-450 range. Players in this range are more for people who are keen to get "better" picture quality or audio quality. But hey I also have the Pio 79 and one some days I prefer its picture over my Denon 2900 and on others...... Lets just say I love both my players just as much.

I just hate that people who own this player and love this player get up in hands and make Kris change what he reveals as at the end of the day, if you are happy with the player and disagree with the fact that this player still has faults even though you think its the best. Hey thats all that matters. Your money, your player and your eyes/ears. Who cares what others say.

Oliver

I think that Gladiator flaw is not the only problem with the deinterlacing of the Pio 79. It trips up on quite a number of other scene. I see it and many others see it too. Dont even get me started that you need to look at your screen to enable repeat tracks or the long delay between DVD layers. But hey it is defintely more fuss free with regards to scratched DVD which makes me want to throw away my Denon sometimes.

But yes for 90% or more of the public, they may not notice it and thats fine. But at this price point of US$1K or so, I think we have every right to ask for "better" performance. Note that this model is not really for the public. The general public buys mainly DVD players in the US$150-450 range. Players in this range are more for people who are keen to get "better" picture quality or audio quality. But hey I also have the Pio 79 and one some days I prefer its picture over my Denon 2900 and on others...... Lets just say I love both my players just as much.

I just hate that people who own this player and love this player get up in hands and make Kris change what he reveals as at the end of the day, if you are happy with the player and disagree with the fact that this player still has faults even though you think its the best. Hey thats all that matters. Your money, your player and your eyes/ears. Who cares what others say.

Oliver

Sorry, thought I'd chime in here.

I don't think anyone here is trying to change Kris' conclusions - after all, it's hard to argue with quantifiable test trials. However, I do think that most 79 owners are trying to counter those who base their opinions solely on Kris' conclusions. I believe there should be a happy balance when it comes to a person's opinion, otherwise it's a narrow-minded and ignorant opinion. When I read Kris' benchmark results, of course I was somewhat disappointed. But I also didn't let that stop me from enjoying my 79, which I consider to be a great DVD player.

Now, I'm certainly not trying knocking Kris or his conclusions in any way (his eye and understanding of the intricacies of a DVD player's video capabilities are quite impressive). However, there are numerous other attributes that should factor into one's purchase decisions of a universal player (i.e. build quality, audio capabilities, connectivity options, etc.), and the fact is Kris' results only touch on a single aspect of a player's characteristics. So to those of you who shun the 79 solely on the Secrets benchmark results, take your blinders off and stop whinn(y)ing...



On an unrelated note to my rantings above, does anyone know if using a DVD player w/ upconversion capabilities via component cables (i.e. Zenith, LG, and I believe one of the Oppos has the capability as well) would be comparable to the PQ of the 79's 480p over component? One of the reasons I bought the 79 was for its ability to send a 480i signal via HDMI which I was going to eventually use with a TV upgrade (currently have an older Hitachi RP CRT with component only) or perhaps an external scaler (possibly an iScan once they add a NLA aspect ratio option). However, with the announcement of SED technology being further delayed, I guess I'm stuck with my current set for a while longer. As such, I've been a bit curious as to the benefits of an upconverted picture. Anyone have experience or info on these types of players?

Sorry, thought I'd chime in here.

I don't think anyone here is trying to change Kris' conclusions - after all, it's hard to argue with quantifiable test trials. However, I do think that most 79 owners are trying to counter those who base their opinions solely on Kris' conclusions. I believe there should be a happy balance when it comes to a person's opinion, otherwise it's a narrow-minded and ignorant opinion. When I read Kris' benchmark results, of course I was somewhat disappointed. But I also didn't let that stop me from enjoying my 79, which I consider to be a great DVD player.

Now, I'm certainly not trying knocking Kris or his conclusions in any way (his eye and understanding of the intricacies of a DVD player's video capabilities are quite impressive). However, there are numerous other attributes that should factor into one's purchase decisions of a universal player (i.e. build quality, audio capabilities, connectivity options, etc.), and the fact is Kris' results only touch on a single aspect of a player's characteristics. So to those of you who shun the 79 solely on the Secrets benchmark results, take your blinders off and stop whinn(y)ing...



On an unrelated note to my rantings above, does anyone know if using a DVD player w/ upconversion capabilities via component cables (i.e. Zenith, LG, and I believe one of the Oppos has the capability as well) would be comparable to the PQ of the 79's 480p over component? One of the reasons I bought the 79 was for its ability to send a 480i signal via HDMI which I was going to eventually use with a TV upgrade (currently have an older Hitachi RP CRT with component only) or perhaps an external scaler (possibly an iScan once they add a NLA aspect ratio option). However, with the announcement of SED technology being further delayed, I guess I'm stuck with my current set for a while longer. As such, I've been a bit curious as to the benefits of an upconverted picture. Anyone have experience or info on these types of players?

I didn't take Kris's review as negative at all, he basically said alot of positive things about Pioneer's recent direction with DVD players and said that if it would have been improved in a few areas, it would up there with the best. Since my living room is not a laboratory and I watch DVD's vs. studying them, all I see is a real vibrant, detailed and colorful picture. The gravy is that it is the champ in terms of build, competitive with the best in its' class for music and features, and less money to boot. Sounds like the peoples' champ?

I think that Gladiator flaw is not the only problem with the deinterlacing of the Pio 79. It trips up on quite a number of other scene. I see it and many others see it too. Dont even get me started that you need to look at your screen to enable repeat tracks or the long delay between DVD layers. But hey it is defintely more fuss free with regards to scratched DVD which makes me want to throw away my Denon sometimes.

But yes for 90% or more of the public, they may not notice it and thats fine. But at this price point of US$1K or so, I think we have every right to ask for "better" performance. Note that this model is not really for the public. The general public buys mainly DVD players in the US$150-450 range. Players in this range are more for people who are keen to get "better" picture quality or audio quality. But hey I also have the Pio 79 and one some days I prefer its picture over my Denon 2900 and on others...... Lets just say I love both my players just as much.

I just hate that people who own this player and love this player get up in hands and make Kris change what he reveals as at the end of the day, if you are happy with the player and disagree with the fact that this player still has faults even though you think its the best. Hey thats all that matters. Your money, your player and your eyes/ears. Who cares what others say.

Oliver

Ok Oliver
Maybe I should have been more specific. You did say 90% see above. I would argue it to be around the mid 90's but hey the point I have made regarding economic reality still holds.
If 95% of the"buying" public were staying away in droves and not buying any product because of an "obvious" defect then you would get action.
When people accept that the lab reports have have not done this because people's eyes are the best judge and the market for this player is still strong then the economic reality (even though I wish it was not the case) is that Manufacturer's will not take any action. It is simply cost-benefit analysis.
On the other hand many people have been up in arms re MBE on most Denon's. This is a very noticable artefact and one which Denon can't ignore because the majority of their market has complained about it . Their action was to approach the supplier of their components and demand a fix. This action by Denon reiterates the point I am making about the economic benefit to stakeholders in Denon( by this I mean shareholders) in getting the Flaw looked at. If only a small percentage of the market voiced concerns re MBE then I can say with confidence that nothing would get done.
As the saying goes "Reality Bites"

Ok Oliver
Maybe I should have been more specific. You did say 90% see above. I would argue it to be around the mid 90's but hey the point I have made regarding economic reality still holds.
If 95% of the"buying" public were staying away in droves and not buying any product because of an "obvious" defect then you would get action.
When people accept that the lab reports have have not done this because people's eyes are the best judge and the market for this player is still strong then the economic reality (even though I wish it was not the case) is that Manufacturer's will not take any action. It is simply cost-benefit analysis.
On the other hand many people have been up in arms re MBE on most Denon's. This is a very noticable artefact and one which Denon can't ignore because the majority of their market has complained about it . Their action was to approach the supplier of their components and demand a fix. This action by Denon reiterates the point I am making about the economic benefit to stakeholders in Denon in getting the Flaw looked at. If only a small percentage of the market voiced concerns re MBE then I can say with confidence that nothing would get done.

Unfortuntely MBE is more of a DCDi problem then Denon as it affects quite a few other DCDi players as well. But I get your point. Well I did buy the Pio 79 after Kris publish the results because of the many good reviews and because at the US$1K price point there are not any other better player in terms of sound and video quality. Just felt that Pio can still do better and I hope their new player if they come out another universal DVD player should continue to improve. Audio and Video artifacts are really funny things. Once you see it, you seem to always see/hear it. Sometimes its better not to read or know about it :p I hate to think what would have happen to DLP if TI felt that as only a few people complain about rainbow effects and so decided not to do anything to improve or get rid of them....

Oliver

I hate to think what would have happen to DLP if TI felt that as only a few people complain about rainbow effects and so decided not to do anything to improve or get rid of them....

Oliver
That nails it :) . And that is exactly where we are coming from with de-interlacers. I still shudder when I see hugely expensive early Flat-TV's, some costing a lot more than Denons 5910, with absolutley horrible (by todays standards) de-interlacing artefacts. The owners, of course, don't see a thing and are proud of their gear. :eek:

I hate to think what would have happen to DLP if TI felt that as only a few people complain about rainbow effects and so decided not to do anything to improve or get rid of them....

Oliver[/QUOTE]

Hi Oliver

Incidentally It's not just the rainbow effect with single DLP's they have also been found to cause motion sickness to people who are prone to it.. I am one of these people .

That nails it :) . And that is exactly where we are coming from with de-interlacers. I still shudder when I see hugely expensive early Flat-TV's, some costing a lot more than Denons 5910, with absolutley horrible (by todays standards) de-interlacing artefacts. The owners, of course, don't see a thing and are proud of their gear. :eek:

Hi Ourdall

Why should you shudder. If you don't own one then it should have no consequence to you.
And if the owners don't see a thing then.... maybe they don't see a thing ....and ......have every right to be proud of their gear.
And maybe back then there weren't forums and Secrets Tests telling these people
how poorly the unit performed in a cadence test or maybe...a "spiral" pattern didn't look right or .....a roof top had a Zebra pattern on it.
These people went out to their retail store ...saw a demonstation of the unit in the store. They liked what they saw and used their hard earned cash to purchase the unit. This is what normal people do.

Hi Ourdall

Why should you shudder. If you don't own one then it should have no consequence to you.
And if the owners don't see a thing then.... maybe they don't see a thing ....and ......have every right to be proud of their gear.
And maybe back then there weren't forums and Secrets Tests telling these people
how poorly the unit performed in a cadence test or maybe...a "spiral" pattern didn't look right or .....a roof top had a Zebra pattern on it.
These people went out to their retail store ...saw a demonstation of the unit in the store. They liked what they saw and used their hard earned cash to purchase the unit. This is what normal people do.
By that logic we'd still be driving Ford T's ;)

By that logic we'd still be driving Ford T's ;)

You are a funny boy :)

I hate to think what would have happen to DLP if TI felt that as only a few people complain about rainbow effects and so decided not to do anything to improve or get rid of them....

Oliver

Hi Oliver

Incidentally It's not just the rainbow effect with single DLP's they have also been found to cause motion sickness to people who are prone to it.. I am one of these people .[/QUOTE]


Hmm. I did not know that! I do see these rainbows esp on the older models. And I did recall one day after 2 hours at a friends place that I really wanted to throw out afterwards. My thinking then was that those dual SVS subs are potent! Maybe I was wrong :p

Oliver

Hi Ourdall

Why should you shudder. If you don't own one then it should have no consequence to you.
And if the owners don't see a thing then.... maybe they don't see a thing ....and ......have every right to be proud of their gear.
And maybe back then there weren't forums and Secrets Tests telling these people
how poorly the unit performed in a cadence test or maybe...a "spiral" pattern didn't look right or .....a roof top had a Zebra pattern on it.
These people went out to their retail store ...saw a demonstation of the unit in the store. They liked what they saw and used their hard earned cash to purchase the unit. This is what normal people do.


The sad fact about this is that secrets did not invent all of this. It is true that the deinterlacer of the Pio 79 is poor. Lets quality that by saying it could be better. But other then that its sound is fantastic. Its colour tone and its picture sure has that 3d look about it. So why continue to defend it by saying it does not have issues? It defintely has Edge enhancement issues as well. But for those who dont see it fine. For people who are looking for a player at this price range, I still tell them to look at the Pio and the Denon 3910 and see what they prefer. Telling people about some of the cons about a player does not make it poor! At this price range the 3910 defintely has as much if not more issues such as MBE and a overly smooth picture with less details.

But hey I still enjoy my Pio 79. Lets not get too personal about our purchases that we just want to hear the good things about it and not the bad ones. Maybe thats just me.

Oliver

On an unrelated note to my rantings above, does anyone know if using a DVD player w/ upconversion capabilities via component cables (i.e. Zenith, LG, and I believe one of the Oppos has the capability as well) would be comparable to the PQ of the 79's 480p over component? One of the reasons I bought the 79 was for its ability to send a 480i signal via HDMI which I was going to eventually use with a TV upgrade (currently have an older Hitachi RP CRT with component only) or perhaps an external scaler (possibly an iScan once they add a NLA aspect ratio option). However, with the announcement of SED technology being further delayed, I guess I'm stuck with my current set for a while longer. As such, I've been a bit curious as to the benefits of an upconverted picture. Anyone have experience or info on these types of players?

I have both, and compared...the 79 480p over component is much better than Zenith 318 1080i. The colors are way more vivid, and the cropping on the Zenith drives me crazy (17 pixels on right side). The many adjustments on the 79 was also worth it. But, on the same note...the 79 over HDMI is in a whole new realm...the 10bit scaling to 720p is the big ticket item (in one day I will also be doing the 480i over HDMI to VP30...I am hoping that is another huge step in quality which others have reported). The things that most bug me about the 79 are the deinterlacing problems, CUE bug, and Y/C delay...all which should go bye-bye with the VP30. So the route I went was 79avi+VP30 which I assure you I spent about $1K less than Denon 5910 and I will have a 4XHDMI and digital audio switch also. One last thing...with the report of the new "DL" add on board for the VP30 (see video processor section at $200 for a short time)...it is said by folks, in this industry, that it is DVDO(ABT) attempt at HQV rival (and with testing we can eventually confirm).

The things that most bug me about the 79 are the deinterlacing problems, CUE bug, and Y/C delay...all which should go bye-bye with the VP30.
The 4:2:0 ICP chroma bug is present even at 480i, unless one sets the chroma noise reduction above half way. But that may cause other artifacts.

The 4:2:0 ICP chroma bug is present even at 480i, unless one sets the chroma noise reduction above half way. But that may cause other artifacts.

Ok, that sounds bad. I had been planning to send 480i over HDMI to a new (not yet bought) NEC 50" plasma as I heard that the NEC has an exceptional scalar and does best when fed a 480i signal.

Anyway, I've just started looking at units that will send 480i over HDMI and the 79 seemed most appealing to me... for this and many other reasons.

I have considered the 79 over the Denon 3910 specifically for this reason, but the Denon has its own oddities (no 480i over HDMI, MBE) to deal with.

So without getting too technical, how would I see this bug manifest itself in 'real-world' viewing on this NEC plasma? And… just how bad is it? :confused:

TIA

shane

The things that most bug me about the 79 are the deinterlacing problems, CUE bug, and Y/C delay...all which should go bye-bye with the VP30. .

The VP30 will handle the CUE bug.

"ABT's AutoCUE-C™ - Automatic Chroma Upsampling Error detection & correction"

And de-interlaces very nicely IMHO.

Mike

Splitting hairs really but, to be clear, unless the VP30 knows exactly what filter coefs where used by the 989 during chroma vertical scaling it can't fix it completely. If you want the best possible result better to not have the problem in the first place, but given how few players with interlaced output over HDMI there are what can you do...

John.

The sad fact about this is that secrets did not invent all of this. It is true that the deinterlacer of the Pio 79 is poor. Lets quality that by saying it could be better. But other then that its sound is fantastic. Its colour tone and its picture sure has that 3d look about it. So why continue to defend it by saying it does not have issues? It defintely has Edge enhancement issues as well. But for those who dont see it fine. For people who are looking for a player at this price range, I still tell them to look at the Pio and the Denon 3910 and see what they prefer. Telling people about some of the cons about a player does not make it poor! At this price range the 3910 defintely has as much if not more issues such as MBE and a overly smooth picture with less details.

But hey I still enjoy my Pio 79. Lets not get too personal about our purchases that we just want to hear the good things about it and not the bad ones. Maybe thats just me. Oliver
Hi Oliver
I am one of the fortunate ones who does not see what you "experienced people "are able to decipher.
In fact I like it that way.... and deep down you probably would as well. Since you guys can see it you have every right to criticise.
I can't so its all "praise" for me.

I

Hi Oliver

Incidentally It's not just the rainbow effect with single DLP's they have also been found to cause motion sickness to people who are prone to it.. I am one of these people .


Hmm. I did not know that! I do see these rainbows esp on the older models. And I did recall one day after 2 hours at a friends place that I really wanted to throw out afterwards. My thinking then was that those dual SVS subs are potent! Maybe I was wrong :p

Oliver[/QUOTE]

Ok I have experienced motion sickness watching DLP projectors. You may not have. So I have every right to say DLP's are not for me. :)
And Oliver... blowing raspberrys at people is rather a tad childish dont you think?

Guys, if you had to choose between the 59AVi and the 79AVi, which would you go with? I know that the 59AVi has gotten better reviews, but I'm intrigued by the different HDMI color output settings on the 79AVi. Any advice? My display is a Mits WS52725 52" DLP. Thanks!

Ok, that sounds bad. I had been planning to send 480i over HDMI to a new (not yet bought) NEC 50" plasma as I heard that the NEC has an exceptional scalar and does best when fed a 480i signal.

Anyway, I've just started looking at units that will send 480i over HDMI and the 79 seemed most appealing to me... for this and many other reasons.

I have considered the 79 over the Denon 3910 specifically for this reason, but the Denon has its own oddities (no 480i over HDMI, MBE) to deal with.

So without getting too technical, how would I see this bug manifest itself in 'real-world' viewing on this NEC plasma? And… just how bad is it?
The 4:2:0 ICP manifests itself as a flickering in some flat colored areas--think animation. There is one test pattern on the DVE disc that can show it. It is the all-in-one Snell & Willcox plate, the one with the rotating cube in the upper right. In the lower left there is a green square that says 4:2:0 above it. If you look you'll see the left side of the square flickers. If you set the player's pause mode to Field (instead of Auto), and step frame by frame on this plate you can see what the player does wrong. (You can also see that the player drops to half-res when stepping backward.)

Still I love my 79 and wouldn't own anything else, but I don't watch many animated features, so I never really see this bug.

The 4:2:0 ICP manifests itself as a flickering in some flat colored areas--think animation. There is one test pattern on the DVE disc that can show it. It is the all-in-one Snell & Willcox plate, the one with the rotating cube in the upper right. In the lower left there is a green square that says 4:2:0 above it. If you look you'll see the left side of the square flickers. If you set the player's pause mode to Field (instead of Auto), and step frame by frame on this plate you can see what the player does wrong. (You can also see that the player drops to half-res when stepping backward.)

Still I love my 79 and wouldn't own anything else, but I don't watch many animated features, so I never really see this bug.

Thanks Injector...
I've got the DVE and *may* look at this test pattern with it... if I buy the 79. But sometimes ignorance can be bliss.
It sounds to me like this bug may not be all that noticable except on animation (is that what you are implying?).

Also, would you say that this bug is display dependent? Plasma's over LCD'S, or it wouldn't matter?

Thanks again.

shane

I've got the DVE and *may* look at this test pattern with it... if I buy the 79. But sometimes ignorance can be bliss.
It sounds to me like this bug may not be all that noticable except on animation (is that what you are implying?).

Also, would you say that this bug is display dependent? Plasma's over LCD'S, or it wouldn't matter?
It depends upon the MPEG encoder that was used, and how it filtered the chroma information of alternating fields. Yes, that is what I was implying. It takes a pretty good sized area that is all one color to really see the bug, those conditions just don't occur in real life.

I think it should be visible on any display. Basically the first field comes out to be one color while the next is very different. So you get a 60 Hz flicker between the two colors. When the chroma noise reduction is enabled on the player and set above the middle position the two fields are averaged together. I didn't watch long that way, I just wanted to see if it would solve the problem. But I'm guessing that much averaging would have to have an adverse effect on normally occurring color changes.

[QUOTE=Injector]The 4:2:0 ICP manifests itself as a flickering in some flat colored areas--think animation. QUOTE]

You are referring to Chroma Alt Flag 3:2 not ICP.

Guys, if you had to choose between the 59AVi and the 79AVi, which would you go with? I know that the 59AVi has gotten better reviews, but I'm intrigued by the different HDMI color output settings on the 79AVi. Any advice? My display is a Mits WS52725 52" DLP. Thanks!
The biggest reason to go with the 79avi is if your TV accepts 10bit video (YCbCr 4:2:2) via HDMI.

larry

HI,

I obly see two color format options on the dv79avi hdmi setup. (RGB and Full range RGB) How do you set it for 10 bit YCRCB?

God bless...

Mark

Should be in the same place as the RGB options, you should see component and component (12 bit). Possible that the 79AVi is detecting that whatever you're connected to can't accept it e.g if you're going into a DVI port.

John.

So… after paying some attention to this thread, and getting my appetite up for this machine, I went to my local Audio store today to look at the Pioneer Elite VSX-74TXVi and DV-79avi.

First, they were not in the same room, so seeing how they worked in combo was a no-go.
Then, the 74T was not hooked up to the full array of speakers, so I couldn’t test out the Receivers 7-Channel Stereo mode. Ugh.

But the most disheartening thing was what I saw with the 79a.
It was hooked up to a 61” Elite plasma. The Incredibles (a great demo disc) was in the drawer, so we let it fly.
It was hooked up with component to this display. It exhibited the most egregious mosquito noise I’ve ever seen. The faces displayed a bright shimmering orange. An explosion near the beginning of the movie showed severe banding. But the mosquito noise was terrible. So, the salesperson (who btw was knowledgeable and extremely helpful!) switched out the components for HDMI. Ugh, now we have the mosquito noise AND outrageous jaggies!! :eek:

The salesperson did a series of adjustments of noise-reduction, color temp, contrast… nothing got rid of the mosquito problem. He said it could be the 2-year old display. I told him that I hoped that not be the case… A 2-year old Elite becoming unwatchable? Possible, but not likely.

So… what’s up here? Have others noticed this problem? Was there a setting that we should have changed things to in order to correct this?
A bad player perhaps? :confused:

Thoughts??

shane

Okay, just got the 79AVi and I think it's pretty sweet! My previous DVD player was the Sony 995 400-disc changer, which has a kind of soft, blurry HDMI output. I used to think that there was something wrong with my TV's HDMI input, but it's pretty obvious to me that the Sony 995 and the Pioneer 79AVi are definitely not in the same league. The difference is like night and day.

That being said, I have a 30-day return policy on the Pioneer, and HD DVD launches within that timeframe. HD DVD needs to really impress me, and there needs to be a stronger commitment from Universal and Paramount, for me to switch over. Otherwise, I think the Pioneer 79AVi can definitely help me wait the year or so for the format war to sort itself out.

So… what’s up here? Have others noticed this problem? Was there a setting that we should have changed things to in order to correct this?
A bad player perhaps? :confused:

Thoughts??

shane

I have both the 74txvi and the 79avi, with the 79avi connected via component to a Panasonic 42" plasma. I have watched the Incredibles quite a few times and have not seen the problem you mentioned. Maybe you should try a different AV dealer in your area to listen/view the 74txvi-79avi set-up properly.

Bill

Yeah Bill...
I'll do that for sure. But I found this quite odd and thought I'd ask if anyone had seen this.

Do you route your vid signal through the 74 or go straight to the plasma?

Thanks

shane

Okay, just got the 79AVi and I think it's pretty sweet! My previous DVD player was the Sony 995 400-disc changer, which has a kind of soft, blurry HDMI output. I used to think that there was something wrong with my TV's HDMI input, but it's pretty obvious to me that the Sony 995 and the Pioneer 79AVi are definitely not in the same league. The difference is like night and day.

That being said, I have a 30-day return policy on the Pioneer, and HD DVD launches within that timeframe. HD DVD needs to really impress me, and there needs to be a stronger commitment from Universal and Paramount, for me to switch over. Otherwise, I think the Pioneer 79AVi can definitely help me wait the year or so for the format war to sort itself out.

Hi Bferr

This format war won't be over in a year or so . Microsoft have thrown a spanner in the works and have the HD DVD direction to everyones surprise.
This has caused a huge ripple in an already tense world of corporate dominance.
I for one will wait as long as it takes for the market to align itself and then a bit longer for economies of scale to bring the price down for a quality hd player.
I have a gut feeling that commonsense won't prevail and bluray may suffer the same fate as Beta did despite the fact that Sony have been preparing for this for quite a while.
The other issue is here in OZ the market takes a very long time to adapt to new technology. HD TV has not taken of as the pundits have hoped and people here are very loyal to the PAL analogue broadcast.
Therefore I think that going by the Australian psyche the adoption of this new technology will not be welcomed with open arms and as a result I fear (or it may not be a bad thing) that OZ will become a dumping ground for all SD DVD in the future.

Yeah Bill...
I'll do that for sure. But I found this quite odd and thought I'd ask if anyone had seen this.

Do you route your vid signal through the 74 or go straight to the plasma?

Thanks

shane

Shane,

I go right to the plasma. The one thing that I did not find important when I was looking at receivers was video switching. Although the 74txvi has HDMI inputs, I do not think I will ever use them. Others think the opposite and place a high value on video switching, which is fine as well. I'm very happy with the 74txvi and the 79avi, are their better receivers and DVD players for sure but in this price range I feel these two are excellent.

Bill

con219, of course you're right. I really don't think the format war will take a year to sort itself out; it will likely take much longer. But hopefully, we'll have some indication within a year of how things might turn out. Will one format start to dominate over the other? Will universal players become a reality? Will more studios go format-neutral and release in both? Will prices for BD players become more competitive? Will the PS3 and the Xbox 360 factor into this at all? Or will this all be met with a resounding yawn from the general public? Having some indication within a year of which way the wind blows is hopefully a realisitic expectation.

Meanwhile, I have my 79AVi. :D

Hi Shane55,

I have the dv79avi feeding a scaler via hdmi (480i) out at 1080p to a 9" CRT projector feeding a 120" screen and I do not see anything resembling what youa re talking about. I have 20/10 vision (20/5 on a really good day) so I see everything there is to see and I have not seen any problems at all with the dv79avi, so I would bet the problem is setup or the Plasma.

God bless...

Mark

htguy1,
I'm sure you're right about this anomaly.
I might go back tomorrow to fiddle with it a bit. Maybe I can be allowed to move it to another display for a better test. ;)

I'm really jonesin' for a new Universal player, and this one seems to fit the bill. So does the Denon 3910, but I'm concerned about MB with the plasma I'm going to get. :(

I'll get back with results...

shane

Hi Shane,

My 2c... I have owned both the 3910 and the Dv79 and the analoge audio out of the 79 is much better than the 3910 and I think the video is a step up as well. Also, the 79 will send 480i out to a scaler if you should one day chose to use one (Or get a new display that needs one)

God bless...

Mark

I'm going to be buying a 79avi, and I want to use a hdmi cable to connect the 79avi directly to my monitor. My question is whether I can at the same time, for audio, use a digital optical cable to connect the 79avi to my receiver? Does the hdmi cable connection override the optical cable connection or can i use the hdmi cable just for video and have the 79avi output digitial audio at the same time to my receiver?

Thanks very much for the help.

Mike

thanks Mark.

Yeah, 480i over HDMI is exactly what interested me in this unit as I have also been interested in the NEC 50xr5 which seems to excel with this type of feed.

I went back to the Audio shop today and the 79 had been switched to one of the new Panny 50" Plasma's. It looked wonderful over Component... as they couldn't get the HDMI to work... ugh. Let me modify the above statement: It looked fantastic with the new Panny... with component!

For some odd reason, in the Options menu the HDMI adjustments were 'greyed' out and unavailable. The HDMI just wouldn't work. Hmm. But the picture was still excellent (after I dialed-down the new Panny panel from TORCH to watchable).

Since you said that you have owned the 3910, do you notice much of a difference between the two regarding the layer change? That is one of the tests from 'Secrets' that concerns me. Kris tested it as 1.5 seconds. That seems extraordinarily slow.

thanks.

shane

Ps... I probably should have just bought one today. The salesman said that I'd have a 30 day unconditional return period. Problem is... I only have a very old CRT tube to watch it on. :(


Hi Shane,

My 2c... I have owned both the 3910 and the Dv79 and the analoge audio out of the 79 is much better than the 3910 and I think the video is a step up as well. Also, the 79 will send 480i out to a scaler if you should one day chose to use one (Or get a new display that needs one)

God bless...

Mark

I'm going to be buying a 79avi, and I want to use a hdmi cable to connect the 79avi directly to my monitor. My question is whether I can at the same time, for audio, use a digital optical cable to connect the 79avi to my receiver? Does the hdmi cable connection override the optical cable connection or can i use the hdmi cable just for video and have the 79avi output digitial audio at the same time to my receiver?

Thanks very much for the help.

Mike

The short answer is yes. All audio outputs will be active at the same time. I use the HDMI to my display and the I-LINK to send audio to my receiver.

Sergio

Hi Shane,

The HDMI option remains greyed out until it senses an HDMI connection. It might be that the Plasma did not like having the component and hdmi hooked up at the same time.
Unplug everything, plug in the hdmi at both ends and then power both units on. That should solve that problem.

As for layer change, it is slow, and I do think the 3910 was a little faster, but I would still take the 79 hands down.

God bless...

Mark

Hmm. I did not know that! I do see these rainbows esp on the older models. And I did recall one day after 2 hours at a friends place that I really wanted to throw out afterwards. My thinking then was that those dual SVS subs are potent! Maybe I was wrong :p

Oliver

Ok I have experienced motion sickness watching DLP projectors. You may not have. So I have every right to say DLP's are not for me. :)
And Oliver... blowing raspberrys at people is rather a tad childish dont you think?[/QUOTE]


Please do not misunderstand. I really did have this episode the last time I watched a DLP for more then an hour and I really did think it was the Sub that was too loud. It has been said to me by more then a few people that if the sub is running way to hot, it would induce similar results as motion sickness. But I am now thinking it might have to do with the DLP that many are now using? I am not using a DLP at the moment, but I will see if there are any more write up on this issue before I commit myself on a DLP projector. You know I recently just had another episode just a few weeks back at a forumers place...... Do you still have this issue on the newer DLPs? Or it affects you with all single DLP? Thanks

And yes. I may have been happier if I did not know about deinterlacing issues, Cue issues...hell perhaps I should just never have gotton on AVSforum and I would be happier. But I am all for improvements and learning. Nothings perfect and I have come to accept it. The CUE issue on the Pio 79 is too much for even the Lumagen HDP CUE correction to get rid of totally. But I am really thinking of getting rid of my Denon 2900 and keeping only the Pio 79. So that says just how happy I am with the Pio 79......

Oliver

thanks Mark.



Since you said that you have owned the 3910, do you notice much of a difference between the two regarding the layer change? That is one of the tests from 'Secrets' that concerns me. Kris tested it as 1.5 seconds. That seems extraordinarily slow.



Having tried a number of players from 1-1.5sec layer change, Anything other then zero layer change pause and there is no big difference. Meaning 0.5sec or 1sec or 1.5sec and it still has the same "irritating" effect. It does not make it more irritating. But I guess we just have to get used to it as there has been only a small handful of players with zero layer change pause. I believe studios can do alot more to minimize the effect by changing the layer when there is a scene change etc rather then in the middle of a similar like scene.

Oliver