OK, I actually have the 5061 in my possession, now up and running. Some initial impressions…

As background, I previously had a Fujitsu PDS-5002, which died after 3 ½ years and didn’t seem worth repairing at the estimated $2500. I had a Panasonic for a few weeks before that, which I returned due to a buzzing issue.

I really liked the Fujitsu. The blacks were excellent—same as the Panasonics (not surprisingly, as it’s the same glass in both). The Fujitsu added much better deinterlacing; the Panasonic was quite poor in this area, with lots of combing. I believe later models are better in this regard, but not up to the level of Fujitsus. What I didn’t like about the Fujitsu was fan noise, which I partially quelled by lining the back cover with Dynamat, replacing the four fans with quieter models, and placing acoustic foam behind the unit. This problem has been addressed with current Fujitsus, which are much quieter. In terms of picture quality, the only complaint I had was occasional false contouring.

OK, now on to the Pioneer. First, some unpacking notes. The box included not only a table top stand, but also a wall mount, which I don’t need. (My understanding is that this is only true of the Best Buy models). The stand at first seemed to be lightweight plastic, but there are heavy metal supports which go inside it. The stand was labeled as made in Japan, the media box in Malaysia, and the plasma panel itself, interestingly, was assembled in the USA with Japan and USA components. The bezel around the screen is thinner than on previous Pioneers, but I believe still a bit thicker than the Fujitsu’s. A nice touch was the inclusion of a screen cleaning cloth.

I have the media box connected to an HD-TiVo by component (I have an HDMI cable on order, but from what I’ve read, the expected improvement is somewhere between slight and imperceptible), an SD DirecTV TiVo via S-video, and a Panasonic RP-91 DVD player via component. In addition to satellite, the HD-TiVo is also connected to a rooftop antenna for over-the-air HDTV. Finally, I have an RCN digital cable box connected via S-video. (I don’t use cable much, but it’s included in my condo fee, so I can’t get rid of it.)

When I first turned it on, it was really bright, with oversaturated colors. Torch mode, I guess. The black level was also quite high—kind of a medium gray. I didn’t panic, knowing it needed some adjustment. I first turned off the default “dynamic” mode, and then I briefly did some calibration using the Video Essentials DVD (the older version).

With this done, I re-examined the black level. The Fujitsu, although it had a silver frame, had a strip of black glass around the image, and I was always aware of some difference between that black and the black on the screen. That is, black on screen was a somewhat grayer. Well, with the Pioneer, that difference (compared to the black bezel) seems about the same. That is, the black level on the Pioneer appears equal to that on the Fujitsu. At first, I even though it was better, but I’m not as sure now. Still, looking at black objects onscreen, I think the word “inky” can reasonably be applied. I certainly wouldn’t expect any complaints in real-world viewing.

An additional test I’d like to try out when it’s dark out tonight is to look at the Pioneer with the screen blanked. I have a hack on the TiVo to blank the screen when paused for more than 30 seconds (to decrease burn-in), so I’m very used to seeing how much light the Fujitsu put out when displaying nothing (i.e., black) in a darkened room. I think that’s a slightly less subjective way to interpret black level. I’ll let you know how it goes.

After calibration, I watched some of the test materials on Video Essentials. Even with the good black level, I could see somewhat more detail in the dark areas, and I did not see any false contouring in these areas (which was where it was most visible on the Fujitsu). The deinterlacing (which I checked with the DVD player set to interlaced output) was excellent.

I then changed over to HD, watching the Bears-Lions game. The image was certainly crisp and detailed. The colors certainly do have some pop to them. I haven’t quite decided whether they pop too much—i.e., are they lifelike. The color rendition is somewhat different than on the Fujitsu, and at least initially, I felt the Fujitsu was more lifelike. With a bit more viewing time, though, I started to get used to the Pioneer’s colors, and they started to seem quite pleasing.

I should remember to mention the issue of noise. There really isn’t any. If I put my ear up to the plasma, there’s a whisper of a buzz, and if I get close to the media box, there’s a very slight fan noise. Both are imperceptible from a few feet away, and are much less than the hard drives in my TiVos.

Overall, I’m very pleased. The picture quality is outstanding, in terms of black level, detail, color, and deinterlacing of SD material. The unit looks great, and it’s very quiet. I’ll leave it at that for now, so that I can finish watching the Bears lose.

To add a few points:

-Before anyone asks for pictures, I have to admit I'm the last person on the planet who doesn't own a digital camera.

-I just saw some graded dark backgrounds which I know would have caused false contouring on the Fujitsu, and there was absolutely none on the Pioneer, just a smooth, perfect transition.

-The black level of screen elements--TiVo menus, scoreboard background, etc.--is really outstanding. At least as good as on the Fujitsu (and by extension, Panasonics).

-The Bears are actually winning, at least so far.

Eelton,

Thanks for your early review. You sound restrained in your assessment. Reads like the panel has a solid, quality PQ, perhaps on par with the best today, but nothing dramatically ahead. Is that a fair reflection?

A couple of questions:

1- Is the stand that comes with the 5060 swivel or no?
2- Did Pio add the ability to rename inputs (eg, from "Input 1" to "Cable")?
3- How is the performance with motion? Any detection of lags when something moves across the screen, particularly diagonally, at moderate speed?
4- A big favor! What is the height measurement of the inner box the panel comes in. That will determine if I can pick mine up in my Escape or will need delivery.

Thanks!

Eelton,

Another thought. In my experience, plasmas tend to improve in PQ after the first 10-20 hours of use. Don't ask me how or even if that is real or just subjective perception after getting used to a new set. :)

I'm drooling now. Seems as if Pioneer came through with the 6Gs ( I knew they would :D). Deep blacks, rich colors, excellent design.... what more can one want?

Peter--

I was trying to avoid gushing or losing objectivity, but I think the Pioneer is overall better than the current Panasonics--black level at least as good, great colors (I'm pretty much used to the "popping" colors at this point), better detail in dark areas, and better deinterlacing. At this point, I can't really point to anything that needs improvement--or really that could be improved.


To answer your questions:

-The stand doesn't swivel. It's the same as the one in the bochures--a flat silver stand.

-From what I can tell from reading the manual, you can't rename inputs.

-I haven't seen any artifacts with motion. The noise reduction came set to "mid" as the default. I've since turned it off based on others' suggestions, although I didn't notice any artifact with it on. I'll have to experiment more.

-The inner box is about 53 by 35 by 14.5 inches. I can't say anything about the outer box which holds everything (media box, stand, wall mount, speakers, and the plasma box ), as I asked the delivery people to take that away.

Peter, you may be able to squeeze the inner box and separate MR/stand boxes in your Ford Escape. If you want to keep the outer box....as yoda would say "Delivery you will need".

Peter, you may be able to squeeze the inner box and separate MR/stand boxes in your Ford Escape. If you want to keep the outer box....as yoda would say "Delivery you will need".
Thanks Eelton, for the measurements. 35" high is the critical measurement for fitting the largest box.

D-Nice.... I think it is too close to risk. 35" is an inch or two to big to fit in the back hatch. I could put the back of the back seats up with the bottom of the back seats forward and put it in through the rear side door. I would make the height ok that way, but then I measure exactly 53" across. I don't want to go through all that at the store and not be able to fit it. I could borrow a friend's minivan, but I think it will be worth arranging delivery. I'm a bit concerned about BB's policy on returning a broken (not defective) panel if I transport it home myself and it was already cracked. If they deliver and it is broken in the box, it'll be on them. I suppose I could open it up at the store to check first, but it's looking like too much of a hassle.

BTW, the outer box can collapse flat and go on top of everything else, if I did go that way. At least that worked with the 43".

And, according to Yoda at least, whether or not I pick up the plasma myself, I will still need delivery (especially after returning my 4312 to Costco). ;)

I looked at one of the 5061 at the local BB yesterday afternoon and just stopped by again this morning and they do look good. They have the new Panny there also and it's possible to see them both at the same time but comparison is not the best because the panny is on the end of an isle with brighter lighting while the Pio is in an isle with more subdued lighting. Even so, based on store settings and zero tweaking I would hazard to say that the Pio looked at least on par with the Panny on overall black levels while still retaining very good shadow detail. With the canned feeds running on both sets it's almost pointless to evaluate overall PQ but the Pio did look to perhaps have a bit less scaling noise. It would be very interesting to see them both side by side, dialed in and fed the same sources.


ron

Are there any differences in the wall mounts? Want to make sure I get a tilting mount that will fit properly.

Does the new 6G mount any differently from the 5G? Will the same mounts work?

I was trying to avoid gushing or losing objectivity, but I think the Pioneer is overall better than the current Panasonics--black level at least as good, great colors (I'm pretty much used to the "popping" colors at this point), better detail in dark areas, and better deinterlacing. At this point, I can't really point to anything that needs improvement--or really that could be improved.I appreciate your restraint. It's hard to accept reviews that are all "wow" and "the best".

With my Pio, I had to dial down the color level to -5 or more to have it look natural. Many others have said the same, at least with the 4 and 5 Gens.

-The stand doesn't swivel. It's the same as the one in the bochures--a flat silver stand.This is the only "downgrade" that I can detect with the new series. The 5050 had a very heavy swivel base. From the pics, it looks like the elite 1130 retains it.[/QUOTE]

-From what I can tell from reading the manual, you can't rename inputs.Yes... I wasn't too hopeful about this. Not a huge deal, but it would be nice.

-I haven't seen any artifacts with motion. The noise reduction came set to "mid" as the default. I've since turned it off based on others' suggestions, although I didn't notice any artifact with it on. I'll have to experiment more.I have experienced some motion artifacts with my 4G and some have complained about it in the 5Gs. Many others have said they don't see any. It is subtle, and not a deal killer anyway, but if the 6G improves that at all it would be great.

Since we are underway with the real thing, I wonder if this should become the "Official Pioneer 6th Generation Plasma Thread." With Eelton's review and all the follow-up, it would be a shame to lose it with the start of a new thread. If Eelton agrees, perhaps a mod could change the thread title.

With my Pio, I had to dial down the color level to -5 or more to have it look natural. Many others have said the same, at least with the 4 and 5 Gens.
It does look better to me when I do that. What confused me is that when I make the adjustments to color and tint using the blue filter and Video Essentials, I end up with color at +10 (and tint at +4). I have HD test patterns recorded on the HD-TiVo from HDNet, and I end up with the same result.

I have to go with my eye, though, and decrease the color.

For the first quick review. Sounds very encouraging. Blacks are blacker and retain detail. Colors still pop. Can't wait for my Pio to arrive. Happy days are just around the corner. :cool:

Since nobody asked yet, what exactly is the "4060" model that is mentioned in the thread title? Did the 4360s shrink while crossing the Pacific Ocean? :rolleyes:

Since nobody asked yet, what exactly is the "4060" model that is mentioned in the thread title? Did the 4360s shrink while crossing the Pacific Ocean? :rolleyes:

Typo on my part.

I am unable to correct it.

It should have read "4360".

I tried!

Dave

It does look better to me when I do that. What confused me is that when I make the adjustments to color and tint using the blue filter and Video Essentials, I end up with color at +10 (and tint at +4). I have HD test patterns recorded on the HD-TiVo from HDNet, and I end up with the same result.

I have to go with my eye, though, and decrease the color.

I adjusted the color on my new 5050 to -10. The 5060 must be much different out of the box to set it to +10, or the color must be oozing out of your panel. :eek:

Best Buy (Northern Boulevard/ 50th St - in front of Home Depot - Queens / NY) got both Models on Display. All I can say is Wow!!! The blacks on the 50" Model looks very impressive with HD feed. :eek:

Ok, where are those guys who complained about motion judder with 5G (and older) Pios? Can you please retest with 6G and let us know about your results? Thanks very much!

Peter--


-The stand doesn't swivel. It's the same as the one in the bochures--a flat silver stand.

.

Too bad. I really like the swivel stand. I was even hoping Pio would offer a motorized remote control version. I guess Pio is looking to cut costs - and most folks will end up wall mounting.

Typo on my part.

I am unable to correct it.

It should have read "4360".

I tried!

Dave

Would you like someone to create a new thread and just merge this one with the new one?

I adjusted the color on my new 5050 to -10. The 5060 must be much different out of the box to set it to +10, or the color must be oozing out of your panel. :eek:The +10 really only applies to the DVD player, the settings for which I calibrated using Video Essentials. Looking again at the HDNet test patterns, they really aren't the right type to guide color adjustments, and I have the color turned down to zero on that input.

A lot of this reflects differences between sources. I've also found that I have to turn the brightness down for the SD TiVo, or the blacks are much lighter than with other sources.

Eelton,

Thanks very much for the review. Have you had a chance to watch it with a high degree of ambient light? I saw the pios at CEDIA and thought they were by far the best plasmas on display. I'll be doing most of my watching in low light, but I'm wondering how good these are in bright light. My living room has windows without shades (don't ask), and I've read (confirmed by the Pioneer-sponsored study of plasmas) that plasmas are inferior (can't be truly appreciated) in bright ambient light conditions relative to lcds and rear projection MDs, which are far brighter.

Eelton,

Thanks very much for the review. Have you had a chance to watch it with a high degree of ambient light? I saw the pios at CEDIA and thought they were by far the best plasmas on display. I'll be doing most of my watching in low light, but I'm wondering how good these are in bright light. My living room has windows without shades (don't ask), and I've read (confirmed by the Pioneer-sponsored study of plasmas) that plasmas are inferior (can't be truly appreciated) in bright ambient light conditions relative to lcds and rear projection MDs, which are far brighter.
It was reasonably bright in my living room this afternoon. The image does suffer, of course, but it was still very good. Now, I'm not talking about direct sunlight on the plasma, which really washes things out. At any rate, the Pioneer is brighter than the Fujitsu I had previously, and is therefore better able to cope with ambient light.

Madshi - I am the motion judder guy on the 5G observation. As soon as they set the first 6G up in Canada I'll take a look see. But sounds like the panel buzz, black issue, noisy media box have all been taken careof. With the typical Pio vibrant colors and what I now understand is improved scaling sounds like Pio hit the nail on the head , and this is with the base consumer version, cant wait to see the Elite.

With the typical Pio vibrant colors and what I now understand is improved scaling sounds like Pio hit the nail on the head , and this is with the base consumer version, cant wait to see the Elite.

Trunorth - is there any reason to believe that the Elite PQ will be better than 5060, and if so, what is it?

Can you tell me the width of the speakers? I have a 47.50 wide cabinet and the 4360 is 42.40 wide without the speakers attached.

Eelton,

Thanks for that insight. One more quick question. How do SD channels look from either directv or cable? does the stretch mode degrade the picture any?

Would you like someone to create a new thread and just merge this one with the new one?


Good idea.

Eelton should bail out Dave ( ;) ), start a new thread, and the threads should be merged with a correct title.

4060 is misleading, particularly to newbies.

Wojtek - I am advised there is improved video processing in the 6GElite model. This info. provided by owner of our local high end AV shop yesterday. I have not confirmed same relative to any official specs or stats but believe it to be good info.. The current Elite vs consumer version has similar step up in video processing. Lets just say there will have to be material PQ improvement to justify the C$2K/$3K difference in price at MSRP here in the Great White North. In Canada the 4360 MSRP is basically $5K vs $7K for the Pro930. On the 5060 you're at $7K vs $10K on the Pro1130. I am advised that the PQ is better but not by a huge amount by the same AV owner who saw them at CEDIA. Seems to me you have two issues here one price/PQ comparison against Pannies and two competition between models within the same brand. While we're on MSRP, the Sony SXRD MSRP at BB in Canada are listed at $5K for the 50XBR and $6,500 for the 60XBR. Aint competition great !

Eelton,

Thanks for that insight. One more quick question. How do SD channels look from either directv or cable? does the stretch mode degrade the picture any?Well, stretch modes always degrade things a bit, but it's no worse here than on any other 16:9 monitor. I would say, however, that I miss the Fujitsu's automatic mode for 4:3 material, which senses letterboxed images and switches to zoom, and then switches back again when it senses full-screen 4:3 images.

The "cinema" mode (a bit of zoom and a bit of stretch) on the Pioneer seems best for watching 4:3 programming, even though that label seems to be a misnomer--cinema means movies, not TV, right?. Alternatively, if you watch 4:3 windowboxed, you have your choice between gray side bars and an auto setting, which is said to vary the color of the side bars according to programming. I expected different shades of gray, but what it does is actually repeat part of the image, which makes for a kaleidoscopic effect--and an unwatchable one at that. Are other Pioneers like this?

A few other notes:

(1) Now that it's dark out, I've looked at a blank screen in the dark. It looks the same as the Fujitsu did. In other words, this confirms the excellent job Pioneer has done with black level, equalling the previous best plasmas.

(2) I'm still torturing myself over settings. I am indeed gravitating toward -10 for color for most sources, no matter what Video Essentials tells me.

(3) I didn't unpack the speakers, as I don't plan to use them.

(4) I'm no expert, but based on all that I've read, I don't think there is any documented improvement in picture quality with the Elite models vs. the standard Pioneers. (Anyone should feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)

Wojtek - I am advised there is improved video processing in the 6GElite model. This info. provided by owner of our local high end AV shop yesterday. I have not confirmed same relative to any official specs or stats but believe it to be good info.. The current Elite vs consumer version has similar step up in video processing. Lets just say there will have to be material PQ improvement to justify the C$2K/$3K difference in price at MSRP here in the Great White North. In Canada the 4360 MSRP is basically $5K vs $7K for the Pro930. On the 5060 you're at $7K vs $10K on the Pro1130. I am advised that the PQ is better but not by a huge amount by the same AV owner who saw them at CEDIA. A couple of things.......

Magnolia/BB in the US currently lists the MSRP for the 1130 at $9999. Pioneer announced MSRP at $6500. So don't give up hope yet! The Elite prices you see may still be based on the prior line.

Regarding processing in the Elites. I have heard it said that the 920 had better processing than the 4350 also. I'm not sure it's there. You would think that would be a solid marketing point, but you don't see it in their brochures or their specs. The closest thing I can find in the preliminary brochures for the new models is that the Elites have "Active DRE" and the 43/5060s don't list that in their respective brochures. The 4350 had DRE settings, so it may be an omission. (Eelton... maybe you can verify this... does your 5060 have a DRE or Active DRE setting?).

The biggest 43/5060 vs. 9/1130 differences I listed in this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6185041&&#post6185041), and MaliciousBraham in this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6185356&&#post6185356).

Well, stretch modes always degrade things a bit, but it's no worse here than on any other 16:9 monitor. I would say, however, that I miss the Fujitsu's automatic mode for 4:3 material, which senses letterboxed images and switches to zoom, and then switches back again when it senses full-screen 4:3 images.

The "cinema" mode (a bit of zoom and a bit of stretch) on the Pioneer seems best for watching 4:3 programming, even though that label seems to be a misnomer--cinema means movies, not TV, right?. Alternatively, if you watch 4:3 windowboxed, you have your choice between gray side bars and an auto setting, which is said to vary the color of the side bars according to programming. I expected different shades of gray, but what it does is actually repeat part of the image, which makes for a kaleidoscopic effect--and an unwatchable one at that. Are other Pioneers like this?

The previous Pios had the same as you describe. I like Cinema mode best for 4:3 also. It is one of the positives for me over the Panny "Just" mode, which, IMO, distorts the picture too much.

I guess it is wait and see, you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time. If the Elite doesnt offer any better PQ then there are big savings to be had going to the 4360 or 5060. Oh and check over on the RPTV thread, first write up on the new Sony SXRD XBR 50, doesnt appear to be the show stopper everyone was expecting. So back to Panny vs Pio consumer models, sounding like a draw to me.

(Eelton... maybe you can verify this... does your 5060 have a DRE or Active DRE setting?).I can't find anything about it in the menus or in the manual.

On what I assume is an unrelated note, I discovered that the key sequence for entering the service menu on past models also works on this one (although it took me about five tries--glad I didn't give up). I didn't change any settings in there, though, mostly out of fear.

I've got a couple of questions I wanted to bounce off this group.

I bought the PDP-5051 in the Best Buy clearance deal. It has 2 dead pixel that are towards the center of the viewing area, Best Buy said they would exchange it, but they don't have the PDP-5051 in stock anymore. They should be getting the PDP-5061 soon so they said if I get the extended warranty, I can get a replacement to the new PDP-5061 when it comes in.

So I have a couple of questions. Are dead pixels common or should I expect to not see any dead pixels? And then do you think it is worth it to go to the 5061 model? From the sounds of it, the black levels have been improved, which is something I've noticed being a small issue with the 5051 I have.

eelton have you tried viewing any DVDs--particularly those with dark scenes?

I've got a couple of questions I wanted to bounce off this group.

I bought the PDP-5051 in the Best Buy clearance deal. It has 2 dead pixel that are towards the center of the viewing area, Best Buy said they would exchange it, but they don't have the PDP-5051 in stock anymore. They should be getting the PDP-5061 soon so they said if I get the extended warranty, I can get a replacement to the new PDP-5061 when it comes in.

So I have a couple of questions. Are dead pixels common or should I expect to not see any dead pixels? And then do you think it is worth it to go to the 5061 model? From the sounds of it, the black levels have been improved, which is something I've noticed being a small issue with the 5051 I have.I have one stuck pixel on the 5061HD; it's stuck on green. I didn't notice it with normal viewing, only when I connected the plasma to my laptop and displayed solid color screens. I also had, if I recall correctly, two stuck pixels on my Fujitsu. I really only noticed them under similar circumstances, at least from a normal viewing distance.

I don't plan to do anything about it, nor did I with the Fujitsu. Some people would feel differently, and would seek perfection. However, even though I'm a stickler for picture quality, I don't find one or two stuck pixels to be a huge deal. Dead pixels are somewhat more visible, though.

By the way, what does an extended warranty have to do with exchanging your 5051? I guess they're trying to get some extra money any way they can.

Also, if you're saying they'd give you the 5061 as a straight exchange, you may as well go for it in order to get the later model. If you have to pay the difference (plus the money for the extended warranty), you'll have to decide whether it's worth it to you.

I guess it is wait and see, you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time. If the Elite doesnt offer any better PQ then there are big savings to be had going to the 4360 or 5060. Oh and check over on the RPTV thread, first write up on the new Sony SXRD XBR 50, doesnt appear to be the show stopper everyone was expecting. So back to Panny vs Pio consumer models, sounding like a draw to me.

Yeah, I've been following the SXRD every now and then. I did see recently that alot of people are not seeing the extra $$ justification for these sets and are either going to the A10/A20 to save $$ or to a plasma.

The reason they want me to get an extended warranty is because the 30 day exchange time period ends in a week so they wouldn't let me do the exchange after the 30 day period and they don't think they will get the 5061 in by then. Consequently, I would have to get the extended warranty. I'm thinking of waiting a few more days to see if they get the 5061 in. I just hate having to drop more money on the TV for on an extended warranty, but it does sound like the 5061 has some nice improvements and I would get the comfort of the extended warranty.

Sounds like dead pixels are common then, I don't notice it from the couch unless I really look for them, but I definitely notice them closer up. Although looking at your post I may have stuck pixels and not dead pixels. They are both green. I thought that meant they were dead pixels

eelton have you tried viewing any DVDs--particularly those with dark scenes?I've experimented with what I have on hand, although that's not much. As has generally been said about Pioneers, this one has good shadow detail. And, as I've pointed out, the blacks are good. So, the 5061 does a better job combining these two things than I've seen other plasmas do.

Although looking at your post I may have stuck pixels and not dead pixels. They are both green. I thought that meant they were dead pixelsTo me, dead pixels are completely off--i.e., black--and are more noticeable.

Although I said I'm not going to do anything about mine, I expect there will be a number of posts from people telling you that you shouldn't accept even one (or two) malfunctioning pixels. Regarding the extended warranty, it seems to me that it's Best Buy's problem that they don't have an appropriate exchange, not yours. They should allow the exchange without you having to buy the extended warranty.

The reason they want me to get an extended warranty is because the 30 day exchange time period ends in a week so they wouldn't let me do the exchange after the 30 day period and they don't think they will get the 5061 in by then. Consequently, I would have to get the extended warranty. I'm thinking of waiting a few more days to see if they get the 5061 in. I just hate having to drop more money on the TV for on an extended warranty, but it does sound like the 5061 has some nice improvements and I would get the comfort of the extended warranty.

Sounds like dead pixels are common then, I don't notice it from the couch unless I really look for them, but I definitely notice them closer up. Although looking at your post I may have stuck pixels and not dead pixels. They are both green. I thought that meant they were dead pixels
What about sending BB a certified letter asking for a replacement within the 30 day limit,advising them that you are willing and ready to exchange it now but are willing to wait till they can get the replacement in-- that should entirely be BB's problem.

I can't find anything about it (DRE) in the menus or in the manual.
This may represent a processing difference between the 5060 and 1130 then. Although it may be a dubious difference. It's one of those tricks that changes things dynamically. Pio defines it as a function that "constantly monitors the video signal and boosts white only where needed and not across the entire picture, which delivers better contrast within the colors displayed."

We'll see if it is anything to rave about. It may be one of things better left turned off.

The reason they want me to get an extended warranty is because the 30 day exchange time period ends in a week so they wouldn't let me do the exchange after the 30 day period and they don't think they will get the 5061 in by then. Consequently, I would have to get the extended warranty. I'm thinking of waiting a few more days to see if they get the 5061 in. I just hate having to drop more money on the TV for on an extended warranty, but it does sound like the 5061 has some nice improvements and I would get the comfort of the extended warranty.Why don't you just return it on day 30 and buy the 5060 as soon as it's in. It should be days since some are already picking them up at BB.

Good idea.

Eelton should bail out Dave ( ;) ), start a new thread, and the threads should be merged with a correct title.

4060 is misleading, particularly to newbies.

Done, just waiting on cheridave .

Title corrected!

Boy what a tuff crowd ;)

Dave

Can you delete the one I created?

Note on the Judder Issue........

The AVForum has reported that the "Judder Issue" has not been corrected, at least on their models.

See "Pioneer 506 - My Demo" thread......1st post-

Quote:

Finally gave a 506XDE a thorough going over yesterday. Here are my first thoughts:

1. Black Level - a big disappointment. In complete dark, a black screen still emits a quite bright glowing greeny-grey just like the old screens do. So where it counts, there is no subjective improvement. Bright images superimposed on a black background do give the illusion of quite a deep black, however. The big advance is with the lights up - the blacks certainly do look a darker shade of grey than they used to.

2. The judder is still there. Ruined an otherwise perfect HD picture of various sports.

3. Pixellation on movement - much improved! Perfectly clean, but with the sharpness intact. The picture looks a tiny bit less grainy also, and the colours and richness seem to be better, perhaps due to the objectively lower black. These are very subtle improvements though.

All in all, congratulations must be given to Pioneer's marketing department. If I didn't know it, I'd have thought this was the 505, so small are any differences.

Sources were Arcam HDMI DVD, High-def demo, and integrated Freeview.

Reported Judder! (http://www.avforums.com/frame.html?http://www.avforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=82)

Dave

Can you delete the one I created?

Done ;)

I'm tired now and I think I will go to bed now.

Have a great night :)

Dave

1. Black Level - a big disappointment. In complete dark, a black screen still emits a quite bright glowing greeny-grey just like the old screens do.I'm not sure what he expected; all plasmas (including Panasonics) emit light with a black screen. I'm looking forward to others on this board getting the 5060 to provide more data points, since this is so subjective, and since I don't want to be personally responsible for anyone's purchase decisions. (By the way, a later poster in the above thread stated "Mmm, not sure I agree.... I've got a 506 XDE and comapared to the PV500, the blacks are the same, if not better").

As for the judder, I've been looking for it--at least what I understand it is--and I haven't seen any problem. For those who have seen it, does it persist despite setting changes, such as turning the noise reduction off?

I wonder if the judder they are reporting is for PAL sources only? That might explain why eelton has not seen any on his set.

I've been watching some SD material, and I'm impressed at the cleaner upconversion with the Pioneer than I was used to with the Fujitsu. It's particularly apparent with animation. Watching the Simpsons, for instance, I was used to seeing some pixellation along the edges of solid lines, which I always assumed was just magnified DirecTV artifact. With the Pioneer, though, the lines are much cleaner. This is also apparent with non-animated material, and between that and the much-reduced false contouring (I've seen hints of it, but very minimal), SD looks quite a bit better on the Pioneer.

One other plus--the cinema mode perfectly cuts off the crawl on CNN. I hate the crawl.

Best Buy website now has both the 4360 and 5060 for sale. The Pioneer site still doesn't list either model.

I wonder if the judder they are reporting is for PAL sources only? That might explain why eelton has not seen any on his set.

Good point.

People in PAL-countries have been complaining about judder on plasmas forever.

Has to do with frequency handling, I suppose.

I'm not sure what he expected; all plasmas (including Panasonics) emit light with a black screen. I'm looking forward to others on this board getting the 5060 to provide more data points, since this is so subjective, and since I don't want to be personally responsible for anyone's purchase decisions. (By the way, a later poster in the above thread stated "Mmm, not sure I agree.... I've got a 506 XDE and comapared to the PV500, the blacks are the same, if not better").

As for the judder, I've been looking for it--at least what I understand it is--and I haven't seen any problem. For those who have seen it, does it persist despite setting changes, such as turning the noise reduction off?
It's been my experience that with ADV cinema 3:3 engaged, there is quite a bit of judder induced. Leaving it off has always cleared it up for me. Don't know myself if the non-elite has this feature

I think you're doing fine here. Appreciate the effort so far. Don't be concerned with people jumping in saying "but he reports"...). Just stick to what you observe and you'll be fine.:)

It's been my experience that with ADV cinema 3:3 engaged, there is quite a bit of judder induced. Leaving it off has always cleared it up for me.

Yeah, as I've mentioned before in auditioning the Pioneer 5gen Elite plasmas - the judder just killed me...but it was even worse with the 3:3 engaged.
There's a scene in The Hulk that I often use to test judder - it's a shot wherein the camera dollys by a bunch of machinery, which is brutal for eliciting judder. It's not perfectly smooth on my Panasonic, but it's smooth enough not to be distracting. But on every Pioneer I've tested the judder has been significantly more pronounced and distracting (especially when the 3:3 was engaged).

I don't know why this is so, but that's what I keep seeing. I'll be bringing that scene to test out the new 6gen Pioneers.

the Pioneer is overall better than the current Panasonics--black level at least as good, great colors (I'm pretty much used to the "popping" colors at this point), better detail in dark areas, and better deinterlacing.

Damn Damn Damn you eelton!! You just had to say that now didn't you. :p

I was all being pulled so hard by a deeply discounted floor model 5050, and now I am looking at having to fork over the extra Benjamins to get the 5060/5061! :D

My local BB promised me that they would have on display by this morning the 5061. I hope to go see it after work.

Take Care,

Richard

It's been my experience that with ADV cinema 3:3 engaged, there is quite a bit of judder induced. Leaving it off has always cleared it up for me. Don't know myself if the non-elite has this featureThe non-Elite does have this feature, and I have the 3:3 (advanced) turned off. It's on standard, which is 3:2 pulldown.

I wish I had a copy of the Hulk to watch the scene R. Harkness is referring to, but I don't (that's probably the only thing that movie is useful for).

(that's probably the only thing that movie is useful for).

:D

Somebody please send eelton a copy of the Hulk!!!

(I don't have it).

hahahaha....either way, it looks as tho the new pios are definitely better than the 5gs.

:D

Somebody please send eelton a copy of the Hulk!!!

(I don't have it).

That should be cheap, about 6 months ago they were selling that one for around $5.00. :D

Richard

hahahaha....either way, it looks as tho the new pios are definitely better than the 5gs.
I don't think we've determined anything except that we're highly appreciative of eelton putting his observations out there for dissection.

I don't have the Hulk either. Nice rental, but...

The problem with judder, in my experience, is that not everyone is able to see it, for whatever reason. Kinda like with flicker. I swear I can see obvious flicker with some films/HDTV's when others swear they don't see a thing. No doubt we need Rich to get ahold of one of these panels. Can hardly wait.

Thanks again Eelton.

I just checked the listings. The Sci Fi channel is showing The Incredible Hulk this morning.

Close, but no cigar.

Oh, yeah, I also wanted to say that for me personally, I'm VERY interested to hear if there is a black level improvement in the 6g OVER the pio 5g's rather than comparing them to panny or fuji. Those comparisons will happen and will work themselves out. For the initial looks...I'm more interested in the level of improvement, if any, over the 5g's. Although I understand that Eelton had a fuji previously, so that's what he used for comparison. I'm just throwing in a request for the next round.:)

The non-Elite does have this feature, and I have the 3:3 (advanced) turned off. It's on standard, which is 3:2 pulldown.

I wish I had a copy of the Hulk to watch the scene R. Harkness is referring to, but I don't (that's probably the only thing that movie is useful for).The HQV Benchmark DVD (http://www.hqv.com/benchmark.cfm) has good tests for movement performance (and other things).

Oh, yeah, I also wanted to say that for me personally, I'm VERY interested to hear if there is a black level improvement in the 6g OVER the pio 5g's rather than comparing them to panny or fuji. Those comparisons will happen and will work themselves out. For the initial looks...I'm more interested in the level of improvement, if any, over the 5g's. Although I understand that Eelton had a fuji previously, so that's what he used for comparison. I'm just throwing in a request for the next round.:)Hopefully there will be someone before me.... though I'll be getting my 1130 delivered in 3-4 weeks and have had both 4th and 5th gen Pios.

Hopefully there will be someone before me.... though I'll be getting my 1130 delivered in 3-4 weeks and have had both 4th and 5th gen Pios.Now that's what I'm talkin' about.

Looking forward.:)

Yeah, as I've mentioned before in auditioning the Pioneer 5gen Elite plasmas - the judder just killed me...but it was even worse with the 3:3 engaged.
There's a scene in The Hulk that I often use to test judder - it's a shot wherein the camera dollys by a bunch of machinery, which is brutal for eliciting judder. It's not perfectly smooth on my Panasonic, but it's smooth enough not to be distracting. But on every Pioneer I've tested the judder has been significantly more pronounced and distracting (especially when the 3:3 was engaged).

I don't know why this is so, but that's what I keep seeing. I'll be bringing that scene to test out the new 6gen Pioneers.

Rich, I'm going to be shopping for a new plasma in the next week or two, and am considering the 5061, 1130 and the Panny 500u. Can you tell me what chapter or what time that scene is in the movie? I want to put the display's I look at through their paces, too.

Can someone post a link to the BB site, I can not find the new Pioneers

Guys...no retail links....check the sticky topic title in the forum rules topic at the top of the page.

Plus, can we keep this thread about reviews rather than where to buy and pricing...and the usual "which should I buy" questions?:) These threads always get crammed with that stuff, and it sucks.;)

Can someone post a link to the BB site, I can not find the new PioneersNo links to non-sponsor retail sites allowed here. Just go to BB, click on "televisions" on the left menu, then "flat panel", then "40" and up", then scroll down to the last two Pioneers listed.

Hopefully there will be someone before me.... though I'll be getting my 1130 delivered in 3-4 weeks and have had both 4th and 5th gen Pios.

Hope you don't mind me asking, but what are the reasons that you are getting the elite vs. the normal consumer one? Other than the "better video processing"

Hope you don't mind me asking, but what are the reasons that you are getting the elite vs. the normal consumer one? Other than the "better video processing"You have some nerve asking that question!! :mad:

Just kidding. :rolleyes:

Swivel base; much more flexible user adjustments including individual colors, extra video mode ("PURE" - remains to be seen what it is), 5 vs. 3 color temp modes, Active DRE, and separate day and night callibration modes; 2 yr. vs. 1 yr. warranty; possibly better quality control in the factory; resale value of the Elite name.

All this for only about $200-300 more than I could get the 5060 for right now. That gap will likely widen later but, for that small difference now, it is well worth it to me, even for the swivel, individual color controls, and extra warranty by themselves.

Just visited the BB website. I visited another national chain this weekend that carries Elites only and they are selling the 1130 for $100 more than BB 5061. 1130s ship Oct 7 to this retailer. Not sure what the rules are about giving the name of this retailer but of I can..I will.

Just visited the BB website. I visited another national chain this weekend that carries Elites only and they are selling the 1130 for $100 more than BB 5061. 1130s ship Oct 7 to this retailer. Not sure what the rules are about giving the name of this retailer but of I can..I will.


You can post the name, just not a link to their site. I'm very interested in knowing who it is.

You have some nerve asking that question!! :mad:

Just kidding. :rolleyes:

Swivel base; much more flexible user adjustments including individual colors, extra video mode ("PURE" - remains to be seen what it is), 5 vs. 3 color temp modes, Active DRE, and separate day and night callibration modes; 2 yr. vs. 1 yr. warranty; possibly better quality control in the factory; resale value of the Elite name.

All this for only about $200-300 more than I could get the 5060 for right now. That gap will likely widen later but, for that small difference now, it is well worth it to me, even for the swivel, individual color controls, and extra warranty by themselves.


Are you basing the $200-300 more for the 1130 on the price on best buys website? The 5060 can be had for much less at other authorized Internet dealers. I hope this doesn't conflict with forum rules, but I am purchasing this the 5060 or the 1130 this week and if I can get the 1130 for just a couple hundred more, that is well worth it.

Ultimate Electronics. They didn't have a price posted but I was given the price per the computer system. They had 5 pre-sold here in Tulsa as of Sat morning. I also did not see the computer screen where it listed the 1130 but that was the panel I was asking about....I also don't believe Ultimate carries anything but the Elite line.

The price was $100 more than what is shown on the BB website...when you include the other fee (handling?) they are virtually identical.

You can post the name, just not a link to their site. I'm very interested in knowing who it is.

I wouldnt call ultimate a national chain... midwest is more like it.

Are you basing the $200-300 more for the 1130 on the price on best buys website? The 5060 can be had for much less at other authorized Internet dealers. I hope this doesn't conflict with forum rules, but I am purchasing this the 5060 or the 1130 this week and if I can get the 1130 for just a couple hundred more, that is well worth it.Check your PMs.

Just had a very nice, long fairly detailed evalutation of the 6gen Pio Elite 50" model, right against the 5th Gen 50" model. :)

Gotta work...will try to get my impressions up soon.

Just had a very nice, long fairly detailed evalutation of the 6gen Pio Elite 50" model, right against the 5th Gen 50" model. :)

Gotta work...will try to get my impressions up soon.
What a TEASE !!! :p

Hurry home from work now. ;)

Methinks he's yanking our chains.

BB is willing to price match a TVA offer for the 5061(60). I live in the same state as TVA and therefore will not save on sales tax. Any compelling reason to chose one over the other for my purchase?

Thanks

I could certainly be wrong on this one, but I think TVA gives you a pixel perfect guarantee against any dead or stuck pixels, but I haven't ordered from them before.

Gotta work...will try to get my impressions up soon.

Are you pulling a Captain Pike on us, Rich??? :D

Nope. Really did eval the 6Gen today. But I'm under an avalanche of work (partly because of taking time off to eval the Pioneer :D ). Will try and get back later today/tonight.

Nope. Really did eval the 6Gen today. But I'm under an avalanche of work (partly because of taking time off to eval the Pioneer :D ). Will try and get back later today/tonight.Give us some kind of hint!

I don't think I can wait without a teaser...:D

Nope. Really did eval the 6Gen today. But I'm under an avalanche of work (partly because of taking time off to eval the Pioneer :D ). Will try and get back later today/tonight.

Whatever the outcome of the review just make me a special one saying how great the new Pio's are that way I feel vindicated for not getting the 5050 and waiting on these. If they suck I may jump off my balcony, course my house is only one level and i have no balcony so it won't hurt.

I bought the PDP-5051 in the Best Buy clearance deal. It has 2 dead pixel that are towards the center of the viewing area, Best Buy said they would exchange it, but they don't have the PDP-5051 in stock anymore. They should be getting the PDP-5061 soon so they said if I get the extended warranty, I can get a replacement to the new PDP-5061 when it comes in.

This may be questionable behavior. I'm not fully familiar with BB's operation but this sounds a bit like a ploy to force you to buy the warranty. Now, if you want the warranty anyway then it doesn't matter, take their offer. If you don't want the warranty though you should ask why you have to get it in order to do the exchange. If it's so you can do an exchange after 30 days then ask, "So with the warranty I can exchange my new Pioneer after 30 days if I change my mind?" I guarantee they'll say no, which leads you back to "Why do I have to get the warranty then if it's not for post-30-day exchanges?"

If it were me, I'd just return the current set within the 30 day mark and then buy the new one when it comes in. Of course, if you're getting the new one at a cheaper price with the exchange than you would with just buying it then you have to factor that in. It may be worth going along with this ploy if it means a better deal for you in the long run...especially if you wanted the warranty anyway.

i had three BB employees as housemates for a while in college, so i think i can explain this one...

the standard replacement plan without buying the warranty will only cover replacement with exactly the same item, or an item of equivalent value. That removes the 5061 as a replacement option.

The add on warranty allows for replacement with equivalent item, regardless of increased value, as long as the original item is no longer stocked. i have known of several employees who buy items with the extended warranty and use it like a trade up scam when improved models come out and BB stops stocking the old one. Totally unethical, but as employees they can push it through.

In your case though, it would be legit. There is a problem with your display, and if you want to replace it with the 61, that would require the purchase of the add on warranty.

I've never worked there myself, i had a lot better job than that, but I know of these methods i describe being used on more than one occasion.

i had three BB employees as housemates for a while in college, so i think i can explain this one...

the standard replacement plan without buying the warranty will only cover replacement with exactly the same item, or an item of equivalent value. That removes the 5061 as a replacement option.

The add on warranty allows for replacement with equivalent item, regardless of increased value, as long as the original item is no longer stocked. i have known of several employees who buy items with the extended warranty and use it like a trade up scam when improved models come out and BB stops stocking the old one. Totally unethical, but as employees they can push it through.

In your case though, it would be legit. There is a problem with your display, and if you want to replace it with the 61, that would require the purchase of the add on warranty.

I've never worked there myself, i had a lot better job than that, but I know of these methods i describe being used on more than one occasion.

I could be wrong but isn't their warranty a service plan, meaning that if there is something wrong with your TV (which first of all has to be covered by the warranty...a couple dead pixels may or may not technically be covered) they first try to fix it and if it can't be fixed then you get a replacement.

I sit here tappin my foot waiting on the Harkness report :D

i believe you are right, but on some of those items, they skip the "fix" process altogther if they know the issue cannot be repaired without a new panel. In my opinion if they say the dead/stuck pixels distract from your viewing experience, there is no reason for them not to just instantly replace it, because they know stuck pixels cannot be fixed by a technitian. Since the 51 is no longer stocked, the 61 is the new equivalent model. If I were the one trying to get this fixed (buyer, not employee), I would just get everything confirmed all the way up to the store manager if necessary before buying the warranty... But even if something goes wrong you can still return both the product, and the warranty if it is still inside 30 days.

I have personal vendettas against BB and do not buy anything there myself unless I know they are selling it below cost. If they have something on sale, I price match it at Circuit City.

Part of this is because I wholly believe BB is an employee oriented company, not a customer oriented one. I have seen first hand and heard second hand of so many abuses of policy and unethical situations that I just refuse to support them. Even if it sometimes means I have to pay a little more somewhere else. CC is probably just as bad, but at least I dont know about their abuses. I know about BB's so I dont support them.

But 9 times out of 10, if the employee tells you he can do the switch, he can. If he's not the brightest bulb in the store, he will probably go check with the manager before telling you. If he's the shot bulb in the store, he'll tell you he can, then tell you later you can't. Just get a clear idea of what will happen via what they intend to do, and if you're comfortable with it, go for it.

oh, and I know this is totally off topic, but the latest issue I'm PO-ed with at BB is that they imported the UK edition of Battlestar Galactica Season 1 DVD and marketed it as if there wouldnt be a USA release, and of course, they had exclusive import rights to the UK edition.

Now there is a USA release of Season1 upcoming (this week) that has over 12 hours of extras, which were not with the UK edition. Not to mention it is coming out $8 cheaper than the UK edition did. That Pisses Me OFF!! :( :( :( :( :(

MODS NOTE:

Most of you guys are doing a good job with the "PRICING RULES" and it is appreciated.

For the rest of you guys.........

DO NOT TALK ABOUT PRICING, WHOS GOT THE BETTER DEAL, ETC.

Asking who has it in stock is fine (but no pricing talk).

Your post will be removed with no hesitation!!!!!!

Thanks.

Dave

cheridave,

Thanks for the reminder but does this only apply for Pioneer threads? The reason I ask is because on most of the Panasonic threads, pricematches, what vendor dropped their price, etc. is running wilder than the AIDS epidemic in Africa. I know you may want examples...so...

Official New Panny thread: 42PD50, PX50, PX500

CC and the Panasonic TH-37PX50U order problem..... What gives??


I think it is only fair that the moderators pose the same rules to all threads. it just looks a little biased.

BTW, are you going to get a 6G Pioneer ;)

Randy Tomlinson aka RH in Canada we are patiently waiting, pls also include comparisons to 8th Gen Pannies and let us know where you saw the 6th Gen Pio, Bay Bloor ? Oh and if not too much could you swing by the Sony Store at Yorkdale and demo the SXRD XBR50 that is on display. After all that I can maybe finally make a decision at least until the 65 Panny arrives in 1080p.
Seriously on Randy T. read his latest in Sound and Vision he waxes effusively about the Sony CRT XBR 960 (seriously !). For PDP fans he also demos the Hitachi 55 latest model.

Cheers,
Trunorth.

cheridave,

Thanks for the reminder but does this only apply for Pioneer threads? The reason I ask is because on most of the Panasonic threads, pricematches, what vendor dropped their price, etc. is running wilder than the AIDS epidemic in Africa. I know you may want examples...so...

Official New Panny thread: 42PD50, PX50, PX500

CC and the Panasonic TH-37PX50U order problem..... What gives??


I think it is only fair that the moderators pose the same rules to all threads. it just looks a little biased.

BTW, are you going to get a 6G Pioneer ;)

Yes, you are correct about the rules applied equally. I try and do that, but I don't read every thread and post. I have also been traveling a lot lately and as a result of that I sometimes miss two to four days of postings.

I will go and review the threads posted.

The 6G has been on my list (PDP-1130) and I have been waiting for the reviews to come in, Rich H. is highly regarded here and I guaranty that if he gives it a positive review then I will fore sure go and seek one out for my self.

Dave

I'm also waiting on his review. I think he is making us wait because it is a very positive review (he likes to see grown men jump up and down like kids in a candy store).

Nope. Really did eval the 6Gen today. But I'm under an avalanche of work (partly because of taking time off to eval the Pioneer :D ). Will try and get back later today/tonight.

I'm assuming you saw them at Bay Bloor. I work just on the other side of Queen's Park, so I'm going to try and swing by at lunch tomorrow and see if I can lay my eyeballs on the new sets.

As for the emerging debate re "are Pio's blacks really all that black", perhaps someone can get some IRE or nit measurements rather than debate contrast ratios and maximum lumens.

As for judder testing, all I need to do at the store is tune in on the Rogers HD test channel (501) and there's plenty o' juddery material to check out. They can also toss in any LOTR DVD and I can quickly find several scenes that exhibit judder on my 59Avi / 1110HD set-up. If I'm really lucky, they might have the latest Pio flagship DVD player, but that's a topic for a thread in a different forum...

Ross

I have personal vendettas against BB and do not buy anything there myself unless I know they are selling it below cost. If they have something on sale, I price match it at Circuit City.




Apparently you've either forgotten, or are too new to the scene, how CC tried to jam Divx down all our throats (the pay per view DVD, not the codec).

I'm not saying BB doesn't have their problems (cause they do) but supporting CC is just as bad IMO. I haven't set foot in a CC in nearly a decade and don't plan on it anytime soon. :D

Patiently (or impatiently :D ) waiting Rich's review.

i had three BB employees as housemates for a while in college, so i think i can explain this one...

the standard replacement plan without buying the warranty will only cover replacement with exactly the same item, or an item of equivalent value. That removes the 5061 as a replacement option.

The add on warranty allows for replacement with equivalent item, regardless of increased value, as long as the original item is no longer stocked. i have known of several employees who buy items with the extended warranty and use it like a trade up scam when improved models come out and BB stops stocking the old one. Totally unethical, but as employees they can push it through.

In your case though, it would be legit. There is a problem with your display, and if you want to replace it with the 61, that would require the purchase of the add on warranty.

I've never worked there myself, i had a lot better job than that, but I know of these methods i describe being used on more than one occasion.


They actually said they would replace my TV with the new model if it was in stock. Because they don't have the 5061s in or the 5050s in stock they said that I could do a full return and go with another TV, like a Panasonic 50", but I really like my Pioneer set. The reason I have to get the extended warranty is because they think the new models won't come in for another week or two and my 30 day exchange window ends in a week.

What I'm planning on doing is waiting until later this week and then seeing if they have the new models in. If so, then I should be able to exchange it for the 5061. If not, then I probably will go with the extended warranty (not that an extended warranty is a bad thing to have anyway).

Also, they did send a technician out to my house since it is within the 30 day warranty period and the tech said that there was nothing they could do so I would have to get it exchanged. I was surprised that they would send a tech out within the 30 day window, but apparently that is part of their program.

Sounds like a win-win situation to me. You got to pay the price of the 5051, but might end up with the newer 5061 set. Wish I had thought of that! :D Oh, that's right, I did. I just couldn't find any 5051's left to buy!

I'm assuming you saw them at Bay Bloor. I work just on the other side of Queen's Park, so I'm going to try and swing by at lunch tomorrow and see if I can lay my eyeballs on the new sets.
Ross


Ross,

No, I saw it at Brentview Electronics. Bay Bloor still doesn't have any firm date for getting the new Pioneers (probably end of month or beginning oct.)

I had phoned Brentview today to see when they'd be getting the Pioneers in and they salesman said "in a couple of weeks...but I happen to have one here now, which we are demoing today, and it's being taken away in a couple hours."

Picture Rich in his office chair disappearing in a puff of smoke, chair left spinning. :D

Arrrgh, I'm still at work. Well, maybe I'll take a break and just whip it out.

(Er...my report, that is....)

Consider it a smoke break. Come on Rich, stop teasing us :D

I viewed a 4361 at BB (Lexington & 86th, NYC) and all the usual caveats apply. A Panny px50 was nearby and a Sony LCD was right next and my sense was that the Pio was too dark and I noticed some motion artifacts (SDE) during a high-motion commerical. Colors looked good & blacks looked black but I couldnt help but think the Panny was just a bit better. Perhaps some adjustments would help as the image was so dark as to lose detail and was generaly annoying in a claustrophic sorta way. And i wondered if the black improvements were achieved at the expense of overall brightness. From a physcial perspective the unit looks great.

I went by BB today to see the new 5061 they had just put out on display. It was an amazing picture. I was impressed with it. I spent so much time adjusting it and setting it up that the rep at BB offered me a job, no joke.

He told me they were hirering and he thought they could use someone with some experience with Plasmas. I did not have the heart to tell him that I had never owned one in my life and all I knew I had learned in these forums since July of this year.

Richard

eelton,

Something I forgot, the 5061 that was put out on display today at BB had a stuck pixel too.

Funny how several people have mentioned that there was a stuck pixel. I guess it is just coincidence, and will not pan out as a problem associated with them.

Take Care,

Richard

Well, I spend almost 30 minutes watching a PDP-5061HD at Best Buy (Long Island City) with a HD loop.

And It's sitting in the back which is Very Dim with no direct light to it.

All I can say is wow. Very impressive !!! Some scenes were VERY VERY BLACK to my eyes.

Just as Good as the Panasonic IMO. No kidding !!! At least with HD sources.

Wow.

Did it seem to have the same old pio pop with bright material?

Thanks,

"are Pio's blacks really all that black"...



Well, I spent almost 30 minutes watching a PDP-5061HD at Best Buy (Long Island City) with a HD loop.

And It's sitting in the back which is Very Dim with no direct light to it.

All I can say is wow. Very impressive !!! Some scenes were VERY VERY BLACK.

Just as Good as the Panasonic IMO. No kidding !!! At least with HD sources.



sorry, deleted the message by mistake. ;)

.
Check Out the all-new BruZZi's Panasonic Plasma FAQ (http://www.glaucobruzzi.com/plasma-faq/index.php?)
The FAQ plus links to Plasma Stands, Wallmounts, Murals, Lifts, Speakers, Frames, Bezels & More.
Also links to Audio/Video Faqs, Comparisons, News, Reviews, Shootouts, Tutorials, Tweaks & Many More.

Woodrow, the picture was kinda dark. I didn't bother asking for the remote since there was this sales guy that really wanted to sell me the 5061HD ( I understand It's his job but... what a P.I.T.A. Guy :D ) so I had no chance to check the settings. Hopefully Pioneer didn't sacrifice much the brightness to achieve lower black levels.


.
Check Out the all-new BruZZi's Panasonic Plasma FAQ (http://www.glaucobruzzi.com/plasma-faq/index.php?)
The FAQ plus links to Plasma Stands, Wallmounts, Murals, Lifts, Speakers, Frames, Bezels & More.
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Well, I spend almost 30 minutes watching a PDP-5061HD at Best Buy (Long Island City) with a HD loop.

And It's sitting in the back which is Very Dim with no direct light to it.

All I can say is wow. Very impressive !!! Some scenes were VERY VERY BLACK to my eyes.

Just as Good as the Panasonic IMO. No kidding !!! At least with HD sources.

The one I was looking at BB also had the Samsung, LG, and Sony Plasmas around it, and Blacks were there on the Pio. They had just moved the 50U to an end cap, Panny rented the space and wanted it there. So I did not have it to compare to on the 50" size. Now they did have the 4361 next to the 42" Panny and I think the Pio had a better picture all around.

I was spent a lot of time with the BB rep and we were standing about 3 feet from the 5061. We let the HD Loop run from that distance, and with the good clean signal they were running, from that distance, you could not see any anomalies. I had marked off the 12 feet, which is where I was going to be look at it from home, and I just kept stepping forward, each time I could come in another step, and another step, and the picture kept holding. The only thing I did not do was get them to put up a non HD Signal. I wish I had thought of that while I was there.

Take Care,

Richard

sorry, deleted the message by mistake. ;)

You had me doing a double take. I was like, WTF???? LOL

Richard

OK people here ‘tis. Sorry if it’s rambling but I’m at work and have no time to tighten it up….


Like I mentioned in my previous post, I found out a local store had the new 50” Pioneer Elite Pro 1130 (new 6th Gen) on display for a few hours today. So I zoomed past my house, grabbed my trusty test DVDs and off I went.

And sure enough, in a stroke of luck, they had the new model set-up right below the previous (5gen) 50” Elite model, both running from the same DVD player and Hi-Def box.
Perfect for a comparison.

First off, the new display looks very nice. It’s amazing what shaving off a few inches from the bezel did to the apparent size. Next to the 5th Gen model, you might mistake the new model for a 43” display. I much prefer the smaller, more discrete bezel, and it still “set’s off” the image very nicely.

The new model was indeed being fed by its external media box.

Both displays were being fed by a fairly pricy Rotel DVD player, via component inputs (the split feed appeared fine – no additions or subtractions to the image quality that I could detect). It’s too bad I couldn’t see them with a digital connection, but they both seemed to be performing great so I’m sure I saw an accurate account of their image.

So the salesman turns them on at the same time and….and….well….”are you sure this is the new model?”

The image of the 5th and 6th gen panels looked so similar they were almost identical. I kept looking at the high-def being played and for the life of me couldn’t tell the difference. Then I quickly said, “Lets calibrate a little and see some DVD scenes.” When the signal to the displays was nixed I did notice the screen of the new model appeared a bit darker.

In goes The Hulk DVD. First we tried setting both units to the “Cinema” (or was it “movie”) mode. Unfortunately it appeared the different software between the old and new model made this an imperfect comparison – the brightness/contrast values were different.
The guys in the store went into the “Standard”picture mode on both displays, and did a re-set. Better, but again needed tweaking. So I took some scenes with a good range of shadow detail and tweaked both sets. I took each down to where they just displayed deepest black, with the least noise, and observed what the tweaking did for shadow detail in each display. I got them looking much the same.

We turned off the lights in the room, but there was a large window at the far end letting light in, so I’d rate the viewing conditions as “dim lighting, but certainly not home-theater dark.”

But what about the new gen black levels?

Yup. Darker for sure. Panasonic dark? I wish I could say for sure, but if not the black levels certainly seemed close. I’d hoped to get home to re-check my Panny again but alas…

I’m not sure the black levels are quite as dark as the Panasonic, but I may be entirely wrong if I ever get them side-by-side. I’d put them in the ball park of Panasonic,/ the Sony Qualia RPTV and perhaps the Samsung plasmas.

What about shadow detail vs the 5th gen panel? Well, I played around with both sets and did not see that the new model offered any more shadow detail. That is, once I got the 6gen panel just into displaying its deepest black levels, just like the 5gen panel, both panels displayed almost precisely the same amount of shadow detail. Certainly I could lift the brightness of the 6Gen to get some more shadow detail, but of course I could do just the same with the 5th Gen and see the same things. The only difference is that it seemed I could play around a bit more, lifting the black levels a bit on the 6th gen with a little less noise appearing as I did so. But it seems to me I’d want to have the levels set to achieve the deepest blacks possible from the display anyway, so…it’s a toss-up for shadow detail. Both are excellent.

And especially in the 6th gen model, the lack of noise within dark and shadowed areas is
Wonderful – definitely better performance in terms of noise suppression than what I’ve seen from the Panasonic models (although I haven’t thoroughly tested the latest Panny 50 inchers).

So the new panel does as good, smooth shadow detail as you can find in a plasma. (Although still bettered, I think, by something like the Sony Qualia or some other CRT RPTVS). On second thought, I do remember quite a few times when directly comparing the Panny and Pioneer 5th gen models, seeing occasional deep shadow details in the
Panny that weren’t in the Pioneer. But in comparing the two Pioneers the dark areas looked absolutely identical, excepting that the darkest areas were definitely blacker on the new model. (Hmmm…don’t know if that means anything).

Ok, so how did this play out in normal viewing? Interesting enough, the difference seemed quite subtle for a while. I honestly don’t think the average viewer would notice, at least under the conditions I was able to view (in fact, the salesman showed one interested customer both models, while I was there, doing his best to alert the customer to the differences. But the customer definitely had an “if you say so” attitude toward spotting differences between the models).

At first the black level differences were most easily seen during dark scenes. The new 6Gen model definitely had darker “black bars” for 2:35:1 films and definitely deeper shadow areas, for a punchier more solid look in dark scenes. The 5th gen looked somewhat more washed out in comparison. I wondered “are they dark enough?” “Yeah, I think so.” It just edged into satisfying territory. I was finally looking at a Pioneer plasma in which I could essentially forget about a glowing effect of the dark areas and take in the image, undistracted.

The beginning of Alien, with the spaceship pass-over, a ship mottled with shadows against deep space, looked kind of flat on the Pio 5th gen. On the 6th Gen it looked delicious – the deeper blacks carved out the depth and heft of the ship and the various items sticking out of the ship passed by with wonderful dimensionality, almost “sticking out of the screen.”

Lets leave black levels for a moment. Anything else good? Oh yeah!

Picture noise was subtly, but noticeably and distinctly, reduced on the 6th gen model. The 5th gen displayed what had always sort of annoyed me on the Pioneer models: a sort of blocky quality to fine detail rendering – a digitized effect to fine edges. The 5th gen gives the impression of an over-enhanced type of detail (due, it seems to me, to the sharp blockiness of the processing on edge detail). That’s with the noise processing “off,” but when you put the noise processing “on” (the 5th gen) it does an artificial, mannequin-like reduction of detail.

Whereas the new display had all the same details but distinctly more natural. On details in people’s faces, outlines were certainly clear, but “soft” and human, without the over-enhanced, synthetic look. Plus, general dithering/scaling noise was noticeably reduced on the 6th gen over the 5th gen. Not totally eliminated but for a plasma it was darned close to it.
(The champ for no-noise DVD reproduction is still the panny ED, from my experience).
Actually, as time went on I was astounded how clean and solid the image was on the new model! It leant a remarkable creamy, solid quality to the image, giving more of the “reach in and touch it” effect to objects on the screen. Again, subtle and not something that the average Joe is going to notice, but for people who care about these things it is a very rewarding improvement in the image, increasing the overall beauty, naturalness and realism of the image.

We briefly turned on an adjacent LG 42" plasma with the same feed and, while it looked very punchy, it had waay more noise in the image than the Pioneer 6gen. Just looking at that LG and then peering into 50" of serene, solid noiseless expanses on the Pioneer 6gen really said a lot about what Pioneer has achieved.

Color performance on the 6th gen also looked decidedly improved. The slight orange quality to the reds of the 5th gen panel were replaced by a very natural red in the 6th gen, and over all grey scale performance looked superb. No particular color bias standing out. That meant the image could be quite colorful, without everyone’s lips looking like they are wearing lipstick (an effect still somewhat present on that 5th gen panel, in comparison.

The 6gen also seemed to eek out just a bit more color detail as well, even though it looked like the color was dialed just a touch back down from the 5th gen. Skin blotches, freckles etc on actors were just a bit more in evidence, although not unnaturally so.

The Pioneer colors have always been a bit too candy-like for my eyes and I’ve preferred the Panasonics. This is the first time I’ve seen a Pioneer look so natural and believable, while still giving that Pioneer vividness.

How about the old Motion Judder issue that some of us see? The salesman told me the motion processing had been improved.

In went the torture test from The Hulk in which the camera passes by a bunch of machinery that often brings out judder. Result? Sorry to say: Judder still there. The machinery passed by in distinct, staggering “steps” of motion, rather than passing by smoothly.
There is a bit of judder noticeable in this shot on my Panasonic, but it is truly distracting on the Pioneer. Both 5th and 6th gen displayed precisely the same amount of judder, so I’m thinkin’ that hasn’t been improved upon.

And man is that panel BRIGHT! My eyes were actually starting to feel strain after a while, watching it in dimmed lighting. That kind of brightness is nice to have if you need to combat a sun-lit, or very brightly lit room. But under the conditions I actually view anything remotely critically, such brightness would be largely wasted (given I have to crank down my less-bright Panasonic as it is).

As I watched about 2 hours worth of DVDs the across the board improvements in the new model became more and more obvious and significant to my eyes. The deeper black levels didn’t only improve the image in dark scenes; it actually helped in most shots. The 6gen just had a slightly deeper, depthier, richer image. Even the various little bits of shadow in an actor’s face in a non-night scene were a bit deeper and richer, which sculpted some more solidity and dimension into the image. And across the board, on most images, the 6th gen seemed to have a subtle layer of haze removed from the image, compared to the 5th gen. It made the image more “direct.”

The combination of awesome clarity – the same as the 5th gen but cleaned up and more natural – along with the cleaner image and deeper blacks gave the display a pristine quality that is hard to match. There is just so much detail in the image, so smoothly and realistically present. I could see every little mud patch on The Hulk, every mottling of his skin tone in vivid yet natural relief.

Has Pioneer now made the best 50” plasma? Well, Pioneer salesmen have been telling me that for the past couple of years but I’ve just found some things wanting until this new 6gen model. Now it’s harder to argue with them. I think it may well have just edged into best plasma territory. But I can’t say absolutely for sure until I look at the Fujitsu again or do a good demo of the latest Panasonics. For instance, a few times recently the Panasonic 50” have blown me away with the punch and depth of the image – a “holy cow those blacks look rich and deep” reaction on some hi-def. The same hi-def looked great on the Pioneer, but for whatever reason the richness of the blacks never blew me away…I was more quietly impressed. (Could have been viewing conditions).

My summation is this, so far from this experience: For sheer picture quality it’s hard to go wrong with this panel. Its image is exquisite in almost every way. It is a definite improvement over the previous generation in black levels, reduction of image noise and better color rendition. These are fairly subtle and, again, I think would actually go unnoticed by many novice viewers. But for the picky among us the improvements are noticeable and well worth waiting for. Whether the black levels have reached Panny territory is still up in the air for me, but now at least you don’t have to feel cheated on that count in getting a Pioneer. It may well turn out that the Panasonics are close enough for less money for people to still choose a Panasonic.

I think anyone who has ordered one of the 6gen Pioneers will be terrifically happy (unless you have some extremely high expectations on how much improvement you’ll see over the last gen).

Now…back to work….


I have to thank Steve at Brentview who was great in just letting me go at it, dueling remotes in hand, and turning off all the store lights for me!

Excellent! Thank you Rich!! Sounds like I still have a tough choice between the Panasonic and Pioneer. :(

Thanks Rich! A very down to earth and reassuring review. I am looking forward to the delivery of my 1130. The improvements you noted are exactly what I have been hoping for. More improvement in judder would be nice, but it was noticable to me only sometimes in the 4G and 5G and not intolerable. (I guess that I can hope for further improvement in the elite model, but only weakly).

It really makes the Pio/Panny choice a no brainer for me. The Panny just lacks too much in features and flexibility. I would take a 5050 over the panny anyway, but now there is little reason to choose a panny at all unless money is a deciding factor.

Wow...and now I mean WOW.

When I first started reading I thought I was going to cry. Then it got better and better. Didn't like hearing that about the judder.

A lot of the artifacts you mention have bothered me at one time or another. Glad to hear most have been improved. I.e., noise etc.

For a thrown together review, you did a great job. You should write reviews for some outfit.

Thanks Rich.:)

EDIT>>What great timing. My Cowboys just threw the game away and I needed the good news.

Rich,

Well done, I did not find it "rambling" at all.

There was only one other thing, we might all want to think about. We are all comparing a new 6th Gen that has only been running a couple of hours against a 5th Gen that has several thousand hours on it.

It might be worth looking again once the new Plasma has been running a week.

Take Care,

Richard

Hopefully a mod can change the topic title indicating a Harkness review is contained within.

Thank you very much for a very thorough review Rich. Can't wait to see the picture for myself. Good balanced review with the noted judder weakness called out.

Wow...and now I mean WOW.

When I first started reading I thought I was going to cry. Then it got better and better. .


Y'see, the writer in me doesn't like giving away the ending in a one-line teaser review. :D

I was thinking of giving my report it's own thread, because I think even people not fervently following this thread (or who weren't considering the new Pioneer) might enjoy a heads up "review" on the new Pioneer model.

Y'see, the writer in me doesn't like giving away the ending in a one-line teaser review. :D

I was thinking of giving my report it's own thread, because I think even people not fervently following this thread (or who weren't considering the new Pioneer) might enjoy a heads up "review" on the new Pioneer model.
The review deserves it. Plus, I'm not sure how many more characters Dave can fit into that title.:D

Again, great writing ability. My only regret is not having a nice dinner prepared to eat while I indulged.

p.s. Thanks for not listening to me about the teaser.:)

Thanks Rich. That was a pretty good review and enough to whet my appetite for a Pio.

I think it would be a great idea for you to start your own thread with the review. If you can think of anything else to mention, you can throw that in as well :)

Drivie

Ok, I'm putting my impressions in it's own thread too.

Bravo Rich - Damn your good!

Have you ever reviewed the Hitachi 55" - the new ones arrive next month. I would guess you'd make a helluva ISF Calibrator. Do you have any thoughts as it uses the Alis panel and it's partnership with Fujitsu would have some inherent positives as a result and has an additional 20% real estate - but they get so little press and limited distribution channel to even see one. I'm having second thoughts on the SXRD preorder since less than glowing feedback is coming in from other folks in store viewing.

Like others have said you ought to be on someones payroll doing this. Thanks for your generous helpful input! :D

Thanks for the review. I'm anxious to see the 5061 and 1130. But like others have said, and I know I'm beating a dead horse, I just wish the Pioneer's could get just a little cheaper. They do have more features which I like, but the difference in price between these two can easily approach $2000. Touch call.

Thanks for the review. I'm anxious to see the 5061 and 1130. But like others have said, and I know I'm beating a dead horse, I just wish the Pioneer's could get just a little cheaper. They do have more features which I like, but the difference in price between these two can easily approach $2000. Touch call.

I bet you can get the 50" Fujitsu within a few Benjamins of the PRO-1130HD.

That's not a tough call at all (other than the ugly Fujitsu bezel).

Hmm...I hadn't really even considered the Fujitsu. That's not really a name I've ever considered. I'll take a look.

What are the advantages of the Fujitsu over the Pioneer? And do they make a 50"? I can only find a 55" on their website.

I bet you can get the 50" Fujitsu within a few Benjamins of the PRO-1130HD.

That's not a tough call at all (other than the ugly Fujitsu bezel).What would be the comparable 50" Fujitsu model?

What would be the comparable 50" Fujitsu model?P50XHA40US

(It is listed on the website on this page (http://plasmavision.com/home_theater_displays.htm).

Ross,

No, I saw it at Brentview Electronics. Bay Bloor still doesn't have any firm date for getting the new Pioneers (probably end of month or beginning oct.)

I had phoned Brentview today to see when they'd be getting the Pioneers in and they salesman said "in a couple of weeks...but I happen to have one here now, which we are demoing today, and it's being taken away in a couple hours."


Thanks, Rich. You saved me the trip across the park (I would have called Bay Bloor beforehand, of course).

Instead, I'm firmly planted at my desk, and have just finished reading your report. Great stuff. Looks like the 6gen is more of an evolution than a revolution as compared to the 5gen. Still, its nice to see that Pio is putting a lot of effort into perfecting the PDP art. Ups the ante for Panny et al.

Ross

"I found out a local store had the new 50” Pioneer Elite Pro 1130 (new 6th Gen) on display for a few hours today"

Rich,

Was this a loaner from a sales rep? Or am I misreading the statement? I presume Im misreading and the "on display for a few hours" in a reference to how long you were there and not the panel.

This is obviously the first 1130 siting so Im trying to get a feel when we will see them in numbers at the retail level.

Thanks

John

Rich, that was a fantastic review, and wow, what a great guy that helped you out at the store.

P50XHA40US

(It is listed on the website on this page (http://plasmavision.com/home_theater_displays.htm).Thanks for the link. A few things I notice right off the bat... no tuners, only one HDMI, no firewire, silver bezel :rolleyes: . At 7500 MSRP, even with $500 rebate, I don't see how it would come close to the 1130 price. Does it?

Of course, PQ is the comparison to make.

Thanks for the link. A few things I notice right off the bat... no tuners, only one HDMI, no firewire, silver bezel :rolleyes: . At 7500 MSRP, even with $500 rebate, I don't see how it would come close to the 1130 price. Does it?

Of course, PQ is the comparison to make.You won't get much off the Fujitsu's list price, as Fujitsu only allows sales through brick and mortar stores. You're right that it's not entirely comparable to the 1130HD, as it's a monitor rather than a television.

Here is Fujitsu's newest offerings.

http://reviews-zdnet.com.com/4531-10921_16-6313480.html

"One of the earliest players in the plasma market, Fujitsu is debuting its first pair of plasmas to feature a built-in HDTV tuner and CableCard (Digital Cable Ready) capability. The 42-inch P42XTA51US ($5,999 list) and the 50-inch P50XTA50US ($7,999) buck the trend of relatively inexpensive plasmas from the likes of Panasonic, but Fujitsu's plasmas have a reputation for very good performance--we really liked the P50XHA10 from two years ago. The company is touting its Advanced Video Movement II (AVM-II) processor as "two-and-a-half generations ahead of the competition." Whatever that means, we expect these plasmas to perform well. Both will be available in the fourth quarter of 2005."

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/images/cedia05_9.jpg

How about the old Motion Judder issue that some of us see? The salesman told me the motion processing had been improved.

In went the torture test from The Hulk in which the camera passes by a bunch of machinery that often brings out judder. Result? Sorry to say: Judder still there.
Regarding judder: how do we know that this is an issue with the HDTV being evaluated, and not an issue of suboptimal encoding/decoding of the DVD? I have seen motion artifacts on HDTV's in stores that I think corresponds to what is referred as "judder", but I have not noticed that judder varies much from HDTV to HDTV.

Well had to go check out all the hoopla. My one and only experience with plasma will make this on unbiased review. Local BB had the 5060 next to the 42px50u and all the others. I'm sure no tv's are adjusted all. Looked all of them over and my conclusion was the 5060 looked dark and not very sharp but blacks are black. The one plasma that stood tall was the 42px50u (looked very sharp) and I know that comparing 42 to 50 isn't fair. Now you also have to take in all considerations on plasma's from the "urban myth to buzzing fans". So IMHO I tried here. After that I went to the section I'm more comfortable the flat panel lcd section.

Can some of you with Pioneer plasma experience give me some guidance on the CTI setting? I found this in CNET's review of the 5050HD:

Finally, the CTI (Color Transient Improvement) feature does the exact opposite of improving color: it actually destroys color resolution, and should be turned off for all inputs and sources.Do you keep the CTI turned off? I haven't experimented with it yet, and I'm at work at the moment.


I also notice that they mention the DRE, which was discussed earlier in this thread as something the 1130HD has but the 5060HD doesn't (well, "active DRE" anyway). About it, they say:
The DRE feature is a high-contrast mode that is best left off. I'll have to look again to see if I have a setting for this, since the 5050HD did, although I didn't see it before.

Here is Fujitsu's newest offerings.

http://reviews-zdnet.com.com/4531-10921_16-6313480.html

"One of the earliest players in the plasma market, Fujitsu is debuting its first pair of plasmas to feature a built-in HDTV tuner and CableCard (Digital Cable Ready) capability. The 42-inch P42XTA51US ($5,999 list) and the 50-inch P50XTA50US ($7,999) buck the trend of relatively inexpensive plasmas from the likes of Panasonic, but Fujitsu's plasmas have a reputation for very good performance--we really liked the P50XHA10 from two years ago. The company is touting its Advanced Video Movement II (AVM-II) processor as "two-and-a-half generations ahead of the competition." Whatever that means, we expect these plasmas to perform well. Both will be available in the fourth quarter of 2005."

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/images/cedia05_9.jpg

I guess Fujitsu really did not get the memo about the 25%/year plasma price drops.... :confused:

They will sell for 3x the price of Panny!!!!

Does the new Fujitsu P50XTA50US have a media box? There was info to that effect in the past but a company rep told me that it was only configured that way out of the US.

OT: I suppose there are two schools of thought when it comes to selling plasma's (or anything for that matter).

The first school is willing to shrink their margins and make up the difference with quantity (Panasonic, LG, Samsung). I think companies like this are looking to dominate the market. The second school is willing to keep their margins larger, but at the same time they don't need to sell as many (Fujitsu, Mitsubishi, Runco). I think companies like this are less concerned about dominating the market, instead they want to provide a product to cater to those that simply must have the very best (best of course being subjective and image and reputation being everything). Makes me wonder where the Hitachis and Pioneers fit in.

I see the same thing in the auto industry. You have your Toyota (Pioneer) and an off-shot of Toyota, which is Lexus (Pioneer Elite). Some buy Toyota and some buy Lexus. Then again, some buy high end Mercedes (Fujitsu). Some would say there is a big difference between a high end Mercedes and a Lexus and would justify the extra expense, whereas others would say that its just a car, it gets me from point A to B and they buy the Panasonic. I suppose if your mentality is such that you think have to have the best of everything and you perceive Fujitsu to be the best. Then the Fujitsu is isn't a bridge too far regardless of price.

I think that is what Fujitsu is counting on. Those high margin sales.

There is no spec sheet on the Pioneer site for the 5060. Best Buy's site list the width as 48-1/4" & I am not sure if this includes the speakers or not.

Can someone please provide the display width without speakers?

I think that is what Fujitsu is counting on. Those high margin sales.


I think you are right. Pioneer fits somewhere in the middle beween Panny and Fujitsu.

You can get the Elite 1130 for about 6 large, and I bet you can haggle the new Fujitsu down to about 7 large.

For $1k more, if the ugly Fujitsu bezel is no obstacle, my money would be on Fujitsu for the awesome AVM-II processing.

Unfortunately, for me, that is too much dinero for either 50" Elite or 50" Fujitsu.

That is close, dollarwise, to the 65" 1080p Panny set next year.

If I am to blow a wad this size, it'll be on a really big screen. :)

but is the AVM-II processing better than or equal to Pioneer's latest offering? And does the new Fujitsu have the media box?

The new base stand on the 43/5060 isn't very appealing to me. Anyone else feeling the same? The swivel base is so much better looking.

The local Tweeter shows an instock date (at the warehouse) of Oct 7th on Elite 1130, FYI.

Should mean other small retailers/shops should have access to them up to a week or so earlier. In my experience the whole warehouse shipping deal adds a week to a week-and-a-half to the date.

Can someone please provide the display width without speakers?I just measured it as 48.25 inches.


The new base stand on the 43/5060 isn't very appealing to me. Anyone else feeling the same? The swivel base is so much better looking.I like the base, particularly as I don't need the swivel feature. I guess it's something they dropped so as to provide an apparent premium feature with the Elite.


Speaking of dropping features, I've found that the DRE setting, which was present on the 5050HD (at least judging from the manual online) was removed from the 5060HD. That is, the menu item for it under "Pro Adjust" is no longer there. I don't know if that means DRE has been removed, or of it's permanently on and can't be turned off. (Judging from the CNET review, that would be unfortunate.)


but is the AVM-II processing better than or equal to Pioneer's latest offering?I've occasionally noticed the appearance of scan lines on the Pioneer that weren't present on the Fujitsu--for instance, when Dennis Kozlowski (of Tyco) was doing the perp walk on CNN and cameras were flashing, scan lines were visible during the flashes. On the other hand, I've found the Pioneer produces a cleaner upconverted SD image overall. Both are much better than Panasonic.

The local Tweeter shows an instock date (at the warehouse) of Oct 7th on Elite 1130, FYI.

Should mean other small retailers/shops should have access to them up to a week or so earlier. In my experience the whole warehouse shipping deal adds a week to a week-and-a-half to the date.


TVA claims they will start shipping next week.

but TVA only carrys the 5060... I am only interested in the 1130. BB got their 5061's already, so it doesnt surprise me to see the 5060's earlier than the 1130. RHarkness saw an Elite in Canada, but as of yet there has been no USA sighting of an 1130 in a store.

the Tweeter guys let me know that the warehouse is scheduled to receive 75 units by Oct 7th, and right now only 9 are pre-ordered from this particular warehouse.

but that number was quoted before his review last night ;)

The new base stand on the 43/5060 isn't very appealing to me. Anyone else feeling the same? The swivel base is so much better looking.
I agree. The old style base seems to be retained in the 930/1130 though.

Really outstanding review Rich ! Your command of prose is second to none. What i find interesting is that Pioneer wouldnt have picked up on the motion judder issue and provided the remedy with the new panel. Work in progress I guess.

So the salesman turns them on at the same time and….and….well….”are you sure this is the new model?”

The image of the 5th and 6th gen panels looked so similar they were almost identical. I kept looking at the high-def being played and for the life of me couldn’t tell the difference. Then I quickly said, “Lets calibrate a little and see some DVD scenes.” When the signal to the displays was nixed I did notice the screen of the new model appeared a bit darker.

And man is that panel BRIGHT! My eyes were actually starting to feel strain after a while, watching it in dimmed lighting. That kind of brightness is nice to have if you need to combat a sun-lit, or very brightly lit room.


[/B]

Rich, thanks for the great review. I'm a bit confused by some comments you made. Are you saying that the PQ difference is mostly evident while watching DVDs, and that HD content is very similar on both generations?

I watch mostly HD sports on my 5050. I use my InFocus PJ for DVD movie watching. I also watch a lot of sports in a room with a lot of natural daylight. I'm thinking that the 5060 may not be that much (if any) of an improvement for me.

The reason I'm asking, is because I have another 10 days to return my 5050 for a 5060. I'm trying to determine if the add'l $1500 or so is worth it. I look forward to your reply. Thanks.

Rich's review is most impressive.

The PQ differences between 5th and 6th gen Pio sound admittedly small. And the Panny/Pio debate rages on with no clear winner.

What about value?

In Canada, the Pio4360 is ~$1100 more than the Panny PX50 and the 930 will be ~$1500 - $2000 more than the 4360. (how can they be $100 - $200 apart south of the border?)

Is the PRO930 worth $2600 - $3100 more than the PX50????????????? Even in Canuck-bucks that's a big price jump (75 - 90 % premium).

I know I'm a newbie here, but considering the judder, the blacks and the value, I just can't justify the Pio even for the punchy colour, low noise, brand apppeal, added features, MR etc. Picture quality is very close, price is nowhere near close. Am I missing something?

Andy

ps - Bay Bloor is offering a 2nd year of Panasonic warranty coverage free on the PX50. And 6 months free Rogers HD PVR. I hope they'll price match. They are expecting the 6th gen PIOs on Sept 27th.

You won't get much off the Fujitsu's list price, as Fujitsu only allows sales through brick and mortar stores. You're right that it's not entirely comparable to the 1130HD, as it's a monitor rather than a television.

With a little effort, the 55" Fujitsu (P55XHA40US) can be had for about $6,500 (after the rebate) incl. tax from a "brick and mortar" store.

I got one recently for this price and it wasn't hard to do...

I know I'm a newbie here, but considering the judder, the blacks and the value, I just can't justify the Pio even for the punchy colour, low noise, brand apppeal, added features, MR etc. Picture quality is very close, price is nowhere near close. Am I missing something?Yah. The extra features don't mean much to you and/or the money is a determining factor. I'm anticipating that the PQ between the Pio and Panny will be too close to call. I guess I read Rich's review differently than you do.

Bravo Rich - Damn your good!

Thanks for the compliments, everyone. Boy what an easy crowd! ;)

Have you ever reviewed the Hitachi 55" - the new ones arrive next month.

I've seen the Hitachi several times and think it looks quite promising, but the color settings have been a bit garish and I haven't had time to fool around with it.

However, that's likely to change. My work is likely to be purchasing the Hitachi 55" (at my recomendation - it's the biggest bang-for-the buck in terms of size/quality at the moment). So maybe then I can give some feedback.

Rich,

Was this a loaner from a sales rep?

Yes, it appears to have been a loaner, and I believe was actually something of a prototype. (Actually, the Pioneer VP phoned while I was demoing it with some more info...but unofortunately I was bidden into silence...).

So it was a bit of luck. I'm not sure when the Elite version will actually be hitting the stores.

Regarding judder: how do we know that this is an issue with the HDTV being evaluated, and not an issue of suboptimal encoding/decoding of the DVD? I have seen motion artifacts on HDTV's in stores that I think corresponds to what is referred as "judder", but I have not noticed that judder varies much from HDTV to HDTV.

While judder can be encoded within a DVD, the scenes I use to test judder show different performance between displays. For instance, that scene in The Hulk with the machinery passing by the camera is significantly smoother when played on my Panasonic ED (and on other Panasonics/other brands) than it is on the Pioneer models. I've always noticed this issue with the Pioneers and it's not limited to the judder test material - I can see the slightly staggered motion here and there throughout many scenes. I highly doubt most people would notice or be bothered by it, though.

Really outstanding review Rich ! Your command of prose is second to none. What i find interesting is that Pioneer wouldnt have picked up on the motion judder issue and provided the remedy with the new panel. Work in progress I guess.

It baffles me as well. But what is more baffling is that Pioneer, and any salesmen selling Pioneer, will tout the Pioneer's superior motion processing. I have to wonder if they actually ever test this out, rather than look at marketing and specs.

For instance, when I was at the launch demo of the Pioneer Elite Purevision models the Pioneer Rep (very technical guy) had touted the superior motion processing, especially the 3:3 pulldown. So (as I wrote in my "review" at the time) I pulled out a couple DVDs that test for judder. On the trusty shot in The Hulk with the machinery passing by the motion looked awful - very juddery and staggered. But the Rep sort of said "see?" I pointed out it looked none too smooth. Then he said "well, it's probably not set to the 3:3 pulldown, which will be superior." So he sets it to 3:3, we replay the scene, and it looks WORSE! The machinery no longer simply stutters past the screen, it strobes and flickers off and on...like it was driving the processor berserk. It was just brutal, and even more objectionable than the 2:3 processing. As we switched back and forth between 2:3 and 3:3 processing the Rep sort of hummed and hawed and, even though we were seeing with our eyes these problems he still clung to the "superior processing" line.

Ah well....

Rich, thanks for the great review. I'm a bit confused by some comments you made. Are you saying that the PQ difference is mostly evident while watching DVDs, and that HD content is very similar on both generations?

No. When the HD material first came we hadn't calibrated the displays yet. And it also hi-lighted that the picture quality difference between the two models wasn't hit-you-in-the-face huge. But the performance differences and advantages for the 6gen that I noted on DVD would also apply to Hi-Def as well.

I watch mostly HD sports on my 5050. I use my InFocus PJ for DVD movie watching. I also watch a lot of sports in a room with a lot of natural daylight. I'm thinking that the 5060 may not be that much (if any) of an improvement for me.

The reason I'm asking, is because I have another 10 days to return my 5050 for a 5060. I'm trying to determine if the add'l $1500 or so is worth it. I look forward to your reply. Thanks.

Hmmm, tough one due to your day-time viewing situation. If indeed you watch the plasma mostly during the day then it may not be worth going for the 5060 model. That said, while the differences may be more subtle with bright lights I do believe the superiority of the 5060 would still be visible.

Otherwise, for someone viewing in a variety of conditions I wouldn't hesitate recommending getting a 6gen Pioneer over a 5th gen. Once you are spending that cash why settle?

Despite marketing hype, there really hasn't been much change in the general performance of Pioneer plasma for several years. But this 6gen is finally a real, substantial, visible improvement across the board. Which is why I enthusiastically recommend it to those who like the Pioneer brand.

Rich, maybe the Hulk DVD is incorrectly encoded. E.g. there are flags to indicate which two fields belong together to form a progressive frame. It's not that unusual that these flags are set incorrectly for some DVDs. Some deinterlacers don't care, some do. If Pioneer trusts these flags, this might be the reason for the motion judder problems. Of course I'm only guessing here...

I have in memory that most people turned Advanced Pure Cinema on for DVD, but off for HD. This lets me believe that the Pio's deinterlacer is the guilty one, because processing HD signals needs much more computation power than processing SD signals.

Because of all this I'd be greatly interested to have somebody test the Pioneer with an iScan to execute some motion judder tests. Maybe it's possible to avoid all the problems by passing the Pioneer a progressive signal. Unfortunately I neither have an iScan nor a Pio plasma, so I can't test it myself.

Rich, maybe the Hulk DVD is incorrectly encoded. E.g. there are flags to indicate which two fields belong together to form a progressive frame. It's not that unusual that these flags are set incorrectly for some DVDs. Some deinterlacers don't care, some do. If Pioneer trusts these flags, this might be the reason for the motion judder problems. Of course I'm only guessing here...

I have in memory that most people turned Advanced Pure Cinema on for DVD, but .


Could be. But that scene in The Hulk is only one of severl judder tests I use, and the motion problems I see in the Pioneers have been endemic throughout many models, on various material. It's just something I've always seen in their displays.

Could be. But that scene in The Hulk is only one of severl judder tests I use, and the motion problems I see in the Pioneers have been endemic throughout many models, on various material. It's just something I've always seen in their displays.
Too bad. Don't we have a Pioneer rep on these boards which we could bug with this? I guess not...

Has anyone experienced any judder problems with HD sports content on the 5th gen Pios? I have a 1130 pre-ordered for primarily HD sports viewing but I don't want any judder in the movements. Thanks.

Has anyone experienced any judder problems with HD sports content on the 5th gen Pios? I have a 1130 pre-ordered for primarily HD sports viewing but I don't want any judder in the movements. Thanks.

None on my 5050.

Given some of the delivery issues and some of the posted short supplies of both and some of the negative issues discussed on both..... I need to purchase two 42" units. I want the best PQ one can purchase today and also the best 5 yr warranty. I need to have PC connection to these machines as well as CC is a must. This will be used in both SD and HD and will have an xbox 360 connected to it. It will be initially placed in a dark room but could be moved into the bedroom or living room at a later date. I do not need split screen, and some of the other "nice to have". Perhaps I should look to other brands.

I had thought I would get the 500u but now with the Pioneer new machines which is the best choice? I will not purchase from a B/M place that sells at MSRP.

At the same time, I do not purchase from the NY one star folks either. Snice I am purchasing two at the same time putting them 6 feet apart, what "deal" should I get on purchase, warranty, shipping (with out giving actuall numbers), What technical concerns, relaibility should I be concerned about. I would like to install before November 1.

Do either have discrete remote codes? And how do I keep one remote from not changing the other tv?

This is a harder decision for me than purchasing a new car. My last high end TV lasted longer than my last two Toyotas.

How long has the 500u been shipping? is it about to be replaced?

Thanks. :)

CC is a must.The Pios will only do CC if you use the antenna inputs, composite inputs, and maybe S-Video. Component and HDMI will not do CC. You have to have the source (eg, DVD or cable box) generate CC in those cases.

I have tried in vain to have Panny owners run a test on their displays. Search for closed caption to find a thread I started to try to determine this.

To me, dead pixels are completely off--i.e., black--and are more noticeable.

Although I said I'm not going to do anything about mine, I expect there will be a number of posts from people telling you that you shouldn't accept even one (or two) malfunctioning pixels. Regarding the extended warranty, it seems to me that it's Best Buy's problem that they don't have an appropriate exchange, not yours. They should allow the exchange without you having to buy the extended warranty.


I completely agree, they should have a replacement unit for you. If they can't provide one, they are responsible for giving you an upgrade if that is the only thing they have available. Whether it is in the first 30 days or not, shouldn’t be your concern. You asked for a replacement now.

However, make sure you get the ball rolling as soon as possible, or you will end up either stuck with this unit, or having to pay extra for the newer model. And the extended warranty is totally bogus, they are trying to squeeze out every possible dollar out of your pocket.


Best of luck.

Worth a look...

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/cedia2005.htm

pioneer just relase the 5060 but best buy is selling 5061 from long time. is both are same. i can not find model 5061 on pioneer web site. is bestbuy 5061 is really 5050.

mkabra, yes they are the same except I think Best Buy throws in a wall mount. Best Buy always numbers their Pioneers xxx1 instead of the conventional xxx0 for Pioneer. Some say it's to avoid price matching. I don't know if that's true or not. In years past the BB models have had the speakers mounted on the bottom rather than the sides.

The new base stand on the 43/5060 isn't very appealing to me. Anyone else feeling the same? The swivel base is so much better looking.

I agree. Actually, I'm hoping the old swivel stands from the 5050 will fit the new models. The old versions are readily available on e-bay for minimal sums. I've ordered a black swivel stand from the PRO 1120 and am hoping to use it with the new 5060, which is supposed to ship to me next week.

I'll let everyone know how it turns out. Any predictions on compatibility?

mkabra, yes they are the same except I think Best Buy throws in a wall mount. Best Buy always numbers their Pioneers xxx1 instead of the conventional xxx0 for Pioneer. Some say it's to avoid price matching. I don't know if that's true or not. In years past the BB models have had the speakers mounted on the bottom rather than the sides.

I read the pioneer release timeframe for 5060 which is some time in sepetember then i called lot of internet/brick motor shops and all are saying pioneer will ship 5060 some time after or on 23 september then how come best buy is selling it before that.

Worth a look...

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/cedia2005.htm
I didn't see anything their that I would even call news. Were you looking at something specific?

I read the pioneer release timeframe for 5060 which is some time in sepetember then i called lot of internet/brick motor shops and all are saying pioneer will ship 5060 some time after or on 23 september then how come best buy is selling it before that.
I'm not sure anyone knows exactly how or why. My guess is that Best Buy cut some deal with Pioneer to get them first. OR, possibly that since they were adding the wall mount and changing the model #, that it was just pure luck that BB got their production run first.

I think they knew they were getting them first, because they REALLY slashed the prices on the old models aggressively about 3 weeks ago.

I've ordered a black swivel stand from the PRO 1120 and am hoping to use it with the new 5060, which is supposed to ship to me next week.

I'll let everyone know how it turns out. Any predictions on compatibility?I'm 99% sure it will work. (But that's just a prediction.) The stands are made to fit multiple models; it wouldn't make sense to intentionally create incompatibilities.

Has anyone experienced any judder problems with HD sports content on the 5th gen Pios? I have a 1130 pre-ordered for primarily HD sports viewing but I don't want any judder in the movements. Thanks.

I doubt you will have a problem with HD Sports, since 95% of all HD Sports content is sent using 720p (progressive), so the plasma internal processor doesn't have to do the conversion from interlaced to prograssive. Plus they use telecast digital cameras and not film based cameras like holywood studios.

You should be A-OK.

... 95% of all HD Sports content is sent using 720p (progressive), so the plasma internal processor doesn't have to do the conversion from interlaced to prograssive. ...
Do you know for sure this is a factor. If so, it would mean upconversion and progressive scan DVD players would avoid the judder issue since deinterlacing is done in the player, not the TV. That would be good news.

OT: I suppose there are two schools of thought when it comes to selling plasma's (or anything for that matter).

The first school is willing to shrink their margins and make up the difference with quantity (Panasonic, LG, Samsung). I think companies like this are looking to dominate the market. The second school is willing to keep their margins larger, but at the same time they don't need to sell as many (Fujitsu, Mitsubishi, Runco). I think companies like this are less concerned about dominating the market, instead they want to provide a product to cater to those that simply must have the very best (best of course being subjective and image and reputation being everything). Makes me wonder where the Hitachis and Pioneers fit in.

I see the same thing in the auto industry. You have your Toyota (Pioneer) and an off-shot of Toyota, which is Lexus (Pioneer Elite). Some buy Toyota and some buy Lexus. Then again, some buy high end Mercedes (Fujitsu). Some would say there is a big difference between a high end Mercedes and a Lexus and would justify the extra expense, whereas others would say that its just a car, it gets me from point A to B and they buy the Panasonic. I suppose if your mentality is such that you think have to have the best of everything and you perceive Fujitsu to be the best. Then the Fujitsu is isn't a bridge too far regardless of price.

I think that is what Fujitsu is counting on. Those high margin sales.


That is an extremely poor analogy, since Lexus/Toyota even though its cheaper then Mercedes, is still #1 in the world for reliability and customer satisfaction while Benz just barely managed to make it to the top 5 in the US market. They have so many problems with electronics that they spend more time in the shop then on the road, at least the first year of each release for the last decade+.

I was really looking forward to the Fujitsu 40-series when they announced it last year. But after personally comparing the 42" and 50" to the pioneer elites and panny onyx in two B+M in NY city earlier this year. It was clear that the so called AVM-II is nothing special. In fact it shouldn't be advertised as the superior feature of the display. :(

It still doesn’t know how to deal with SD signals and the HD signal even though gorgeous, still suffers from false contours and tiny (moss) green pixilation in the blacks! The way Fujitsu techs talked about the AVM-II you would think it is the best of the best. The new P50XTA50US "recently announced" should be about the same thing, since they haven't changed the internal processor, just swapped for the 8th gen Panny glass.
Even still I will definitely run into my local Harvey store to see it side by side with the new elites next month, I want to see if the new glass and maybe some AVM tweaks, made an improvement or if the AVM is still dragging them down.

BTW if you wonder why Fujitsu sold most of its PDP stake to Hitachi, they simply can't compete in the plasma markets. Their displays, even though expensive are not the best performers in the high end market place compared to runco, elite, vidikron etc, and definitely not affordable for the mainstream panny, samsung, dell.
So it makes you wonder what market niche are they making their displays for…

But all that is just my opinion, and I never impose my opinion onto others, after all we are all free thinking people, right?
Or are we... ;)

Do you know for sure this is a factor. If so, it would mean upconversion and progressive scan DVD players would avoid the judder issue since deinterlacing is done in the player, not the TV. That would be good news.


Correct.

If you set the DVD player to interlaced and let the internal "pioneer circuits" do the work, then I would think depending on content you would see the jaggies. But when all the deinterlacing is done through the DVD player all the work is done for the display, the only additional step is to convert 460p to 768p.

Nowhere near 95% of HD sports content is sent using progressive. CBS and NBC are 1080i -- period -- as is HDNet. The UHD sports is also 1080i as are some of the RSNs.

True that ESPN, ABC and FOX are in 720p, but, sorry, it's more like 50 / 50.

Correct.

If you set the DVD player to interlaced and let the internal "pioneer circuits" do the work, then I would think depending on content you would see the jaggies. But when all the deinterlacing is done through the DVD player all the work is done for the display, the only additional step is to convert 460p to 768p.
Great! Let me take it one step further. I use an upconversion player (Panny S77) and output 1080i through HDMI. When I did comparisons of 720p and 1080i, the latter gave better PQ. But I wasn't looking for motion, only color, shadow detail, sharpness, etc.

Even though 1080i is still interlaced, it's not 480i. Does the panel do deinterlacing in this case, and should I worry about motion artifacts here?

Actually, two steps further, now that I'm thinking about it... What about my cable box. It's a Motorola 6412 and can output at either 720p or 1080i, if I'm not mistaken. What would you advise here with regard to the motion issue.

Thanks for your insights.

Just traded BB my 5051 for the 5061. Since I have been able to enjoy the 5051 for almost a month now I will have direct black level comparisons, color comparisons, etc.

One thing that really really chaps my you-know-what is the stand!! You have to lay the plasma face down on the table to attach the stand!! Arghh! :mad:

Also, they talk about bracing the TV to the table with screws :confused: or using wires attached to the wall. Are they trying to say that the stand cannot hold the tv up on its own??

Anyway...

Just traded BB my 5051 for the 5061. Since I have been able to enjoy the 5051 for almost a month now I will have direct black level comparisons, color comparisons, etc.

One thing that really really chaps my you-know-what is the stand!! You have to lay the plasma face down on the table to attach the stand!! Arghh! :mad:

Also, they talk about bracing the TV to the table with screws :confused: or using wires attached to the wall. Are they trying to say that the stand cannot hold the tv up on its own??

Anyway...

I'm really interested to hear what you think of the 5061. I bought a 5051 from BB as well when they had their clearance sale and I'm looking at doing the exchange also. Just trying to figure out if it is worth it. Probably the only complaint I have with the 5051 is seeing detail in the dark scenes. Normal brightness scenes look awesome. I'm hoping the 5061 will have better detail with dark scenes.

Nowhere near 95% of HD sports content is sent using progressive. CBS and NBC are 1080i -- period -- as is HDNet. The UHD sports is also 1080i as are some of the RSNs.

True that ESPN, ABC and FOX are in 720p, but, sorry, it's more like 50 / 50.


Let me refrase that then, my cable operator TWC NY provides FOX, NBC and ABC run at 720p (for sports, football baseball etc. Tennis matches were amazing this year). I can set my cable box to do only 1080i, but why do so.

Great! Let me take it one step further. I use an upconversion player (Panny S77) and output 1080i through HDMI. When I did comparisons of 720p and 1080i, the latter gave better PQ. But I wasn't looking for motion, only color, shadow detail, sharpness, etc.

Even though 1080i is still interlaced, it's not 480i. Does the panel do deinterlacing in this case, and should I worry about motion artifacts here?

Actually, two steps further, now that I'm thinking about it... What about my cable box. It's a Motorola 6412 and can output at either 720p or 1080i, if I'm not mistaken. What would you advise here with regard to the motion issue.

Thanks for your insights.


1st part - All interlaced content is converted to progressive and then scaled to the native resolution of the plasma. So yes even 1080i will be deinterlaced and then scaled to 768p (native for 50" plasmas)

2nd part - I would run the cable box @ 720p for sports and fast motion content the rest I would run @ 1080i. Over time you will begin to notice which shows that you watch work best depending on the output selected.

Gene

Well I finally broke down and preordered the PDP-5060HD from TVA. After looking at the PDP-5061HD from BB. I was really impressed with the PQ, and I did get good WAF which makes a great combination.

I will now need to learn what DVDs to get to calibrate this baby when it arrives. (Something new for me to learn about now.) ;)

Take Care,

Richard

First Thoughts when Comparing 5061 to the previous model 5051 -

First things that popped into my head while watching - WHERE IS MY DRE?? I loved what this did with the contrast on the 5051 and it is not there as an option on the 5061...slightly dissappointed here. Also, watching SD I noticed that it looks a bit different...I can't put my finger on it though...different scaler maybe??

1) It is immediately obvious that the blacks are a truer black on the 5061, no doubt about this at all. I went ahead and tested with the Steamboy, I, Robot and Dark City DVDs via HDMI @ 1080i. Steamboy had more depth to the picture due to the better black level as compared to watching this on the 5051 the other day. I, Robot looked brilliant just as it did on the 5051. I did notice that the night scenes did of course reach a truer black. Dark City was much improved!! I felt as though I was watching DC on a CRT again at times.

2) The color depth/saturation looks exactly the same b/w the 5051 and 5061...which is a major plus. The same "popping" colors are there that everyone refers to.

3) Stand seems flimsy and cheap compared to 5051 stand but it is no biggie

4) There is still a buzz but it is not as noticable as on the 5051 for some reason. I can hear it when I stick my head behind the set. I think the 5051 altered its buzz a lot more when you had contrasting images on-screen. The MR noise is pretty much non-existent, but I felt that the 5051 receiver was pretty noise free.

5) MR has a top black bezel instead of all silver (probably already knew this)

6) Not sure why yet but I have lost my ESPNHD that I was getting for "free" over regular extended basic cable service. With the 5051 I received this channel as 113.3, now the 5061 recognizes that there is a channel there but displays no image. I was able to view Dave Letterman in HD and it looked excellent of course. Skin tones looked good.. Once again the color reproduction is the same as the 5051.

Honestly though, if you feel very strongly about having blacker blacks...go with the 5061. Otherwise...I am not sure that there is much of a reason. I feel that the 5061 gives you more of a CRT-like experience in the area of black level.

I don't think they took DRE away from the 60 series. I think they just turned it on by default and deleted a way for you to turn it off.

Honestly though, if you feel very strongly about having blacker blacks...go with the 5061. Otherwise...I am not sure that there is much of a reason. I feel that the 5061 gives you more of a CRT-like experience in the area of black level.


Thanks for the review. Good to hear that the blacks are a lot deeper. What about the detail within dark scenes? I watched Lost last night with my 5051 and found that I just couldn't see as much detail in the dark scenes as on my CRT. Has that been improved?

I just ordered a 5060, the salesperson strongly recommended an extended warranty providing an additional 4 years in home service...what are your thoughts?


Steve

I would say no to an extended warranty. You are better off putting it on a CC that doubles the warranty.

thanks for the quick response... I charged it on my amex gold card which will give me one additional year warranty...is that enough?

That should be enough

Thans for the imput

has anyone wall mounted a 6G yet? Same mount as the 5G ?

D-Nice,

I put the 5060 from TVA on my AMEX, but I was wrestling with the Extended Warranty:

RepairMaster RMT45000 Warranty Plans (http://www.tvauthority.com/Electronic-Extended-Warranty-Plans/RepairMaster-RMT45000.asp)

(The reason I was thinking of an Extended Warranty was of all the recommendations I have been reading in these forums.)

Any thoughts?

Richard

has anyone wall mounted a 6G yet? Same mount as the 5G ?

I confirmed that they were the same at CEDIA.

D-Nice,

I put the 5060 from TVA on my AMEX, but I was wrestling with the Extended Warranty:

RepairMaster RMT45000 Warranty Plans (http://www.tvauthority.com/Electronic-Extended-Warranty-Plans/RepairMaster-RMT45000.asp)

(The reason I was thinking of an Extended Warranty was of all the recommendations I have been reading in these forums.)

Any thoughts?

Richard

At the price they are offering, I can see why it is a tough call but I personally would not get it because if the plasma is going to fail, there is a much higher probability that it will do so in the first 1-2 years. Anything after that would probably be a defect in the parts and Pioneer would cover the replacement anyway. The only thing I can see really failing beyond 2 years would be the fan in the MR. You could probably put a new one in yourself. By placing the order on your AMEX, you have a free 2 year warranty.

Also, they talk about bracing the TV to the table with screws :confused: or using wires attached to the wall. Are they trying to say that the stand cannot hold the tv up on its own??
Generally, the stand will hold the display up fine. Attaching to the table or wall is a safeguard in case of child or dog knocking into the display or in case of earthquake.

At the price they are offering, I can see why it is a tough call but I personally would not get it because if the plasma is going to fail, there is a much higher probability that it will do so in the first 1-2 years. Anything after that would probably be a defect in the parts and Pioneer would cover the replacement anyway. The only thing I can see really failing beyond 2 years would be the fan in the MR. You could probably put a new one in yourself. By placing the order on your AMEX, you have a free 2 year warranty.Another consideration is the falling price of plasmas. If today's $5000 plasma fails in three years. You could probably replace it with an equivalent for $2000 (or less). By then the displays that cost $5000 will be SED, 1080p, etc.

FWIW - Which isnt much.

According to Pioneer the 1130s "have just began to ship and will be available at retail towards the middle of October".

I questioned why it would take 3 weeks to reach the retail outlets and their response was "they are allocated across the nation and it is hard to tell when every store will have received the models so the store you purchased from could very easily have the product ready before the middle of October".

John

Does anyone know the dimensions of the 4360 with the speakers attached? Do the speakers come with the set or are they an option? Also, is the height dimension given mounted on the stand?

As for judder testing, all I need to do at the store is tune in on the Rogers HD test channel (501) and there's plenty o' juddery material to check out. They can also toss in any LOTR DVD and I can quickly find several scenes that exhibit judder on my 59Avi / 1110HD set-up.

Do you see the same amount judder whether or not you are upscaling (720p/1080i)? If this is the case then I would avoid the Pios for this very reason.

Does anyone know the dimensions of the 4360 with the speakers attached? Do the speakers come with the set or are they an option? Also, is the height dimension given mounted on the stand?
The speakers do come with the set I believe.

You may have seen this: http://www.trtechnologies.com/products/Pioneer/Product_PDP-4360HD%20Preliminary.pdf

Doesn't give the dimensions you are looking for though..........

(W x H x D)
• Display (Only): 42.4” x 24.9” x 3.6”
• Media Receiver:16 9/16”x3 9/16”x11 13/16”

I confirmed that they were the same at CEDIA.

Thanks!

Is the height of the display adjustable on the 5060 table stand? I am thinking that I may need to place my center channel on the table at the bottom of the display. If it's not adjustable, can someone please indicate the distance from the base of the bezel to the table top surface?

First Thoughts when Comparing 5061 to the previous model 5051 -

First things that popped into my head while watching - WHERE IS MY DRE?? I loved what this did with the contrast on the 5051 and it is not there as an option on the 5061...slightly dissappointed here. Also, watching SD I noticed that it looks a bit different...I can't put my finger on it though...different scaler maybe??

1) It is immediately obvious that the blacks are a truer black on the 5061, no doubt about this at all. I went ahead and tested with the Steamboy, I, Robot and Dark City DVDs via HDMI @ 1080i. Steamboy had more depth to the picture due to the better black level as compared to watching this on the 5051 the other day. I, Robot looked brilliant just as it did on the 5051. I did notice that the night scenes did of course reach a truer black. Dark City was much improved!! I felt as though I was watching DC on a CRT again at times.

2) The color depth/saturation looks exactly the same b/w the 5051 and 5061...which is a major plus. The same "popping" colors are there that everyone refers to.

3) Stand seems flimsy and cheap compared to 5051 stand but it is no biggie

4) There is still a buzz but it is not as noticable as on the 5051 for some reason. I can hear it when I stick my head behind the set. I think the 5051 altered its buzz a lot more when you had contrasting images on-screen. The MR noise is pretty much non-existent, but I felt that the 5051 receiver was pretty noise free.

5) MR has a top black bezel instead of all silver (probably already knew this)

6) Not sure why yet but I have lost my ESPNHD that I was getting for "free" over regular extended basic cable service. With the 5051 I received this channel as 113.3, now the 5061 recognizes that there is a channel there but displays no image. I was able to view Dave Letterman in HD and it looked excellent of course. Skin tones looked good.. Once again the color reproduction is the same as the 5051.

Thanks for the 5051 vs 5061 comparison. Quick follow-up question - did you buy your 5051 at the BB close out prices, or more traditional BB discount?

I bought at BB close out - and the price differential seems too steep for a slightly improved black level. Or maybe not. :confused:

Is the height of the display adjustable on the 5060 table stand? I am thinking that I may need to place my center channel on the table at the bottom of the display. If it's not adjustable, can someone please indicate the distance from the base of the bezel to the table top surface?No, it's not adjustable. I haven't measured exactly, but it's approximately 3 inches. In other words, I don't think you can put a center channel speaker on the base without blocking the screen.

Like Mit07, I bought the 5051 from BB at the close out price (plus I used a discount coupon and got a substantial gift card), a deal too good to pass up. My 30 days are almost up so I've got a few days left to return the 5051 and pay the difference for the 5061, but it doesn't sound like the improvement is enough to justify almost double the price. I'm happy with the 5051.

So does anyone in the San Francisco Bay Area have the 5060 or 1130 in stock?

-Drew

** For those that are on the fence about keeping your 5051!! **

After having the 5051 for about a month and watching various material on the set (HD, DVD @ 1080i, SD, etc.) then switching to the 5061...I must say that if you appreciate your money and you purchased the 5051 at a closeout price...I personally would keep my 5051 just because it is such a great tv and the color reproduction is so amazing that you could theoretically forget that better black levels exist...

Here is my "quickest black level comparison in history for 5051 vs 5061" -

5051 - black level on par with Mitsubishi DLP sets (more of a dark grey with some slight color to the black (i.e. - slightly green on the DLP, slightly blue with the 5051) I mentioned Mitsu DLP because I feel this has the best black level for a DLP as compared with Samsung and Toshiba.

5061 - It has more of a CRT-esque black level, IMO. I tested Dark City on the 5061 and then went and watched this on a 27" RCA CRT (I know not exactly a reference CRT model ;) ) and I found the black levels to be VERY comparable. Also, when you have the set on a "dead" input you can tell right there that the black level hasn't any color in it, such as the aforementioned ever-so-slightly blue color to the blacks.

No - I have not done an official ISF calibration to backup my claim that the color reproduction is the same, but I can assure you that the same great skin tones and popping color is found in the 5051 exactly as it is found in the 5061.

I have noticed less buzz in the 5061 though...this may be a factor for some. Also, the 5061 does have built-in TV Guide with the MR...but maybe this is trivial.

Also, I have to admit that the stand for the 5061 does, ahem, "suck" and is a pain in the arse to lay the TV down to put the stand on so this may be a factor for you to. I was so very easy to setup the 5051 on its stand, ya know?

Also, just a note - the 5061 has an Advance Energy Save2 mode. I have gone ahead and set the tv this way and am still impressed with the contrast/brightness.

Any truth to the statement that Pioneer imposes a "minimum sale price" on Elite retailers? In other words, Pioneer will not let the retailer sell below a certain price. I got this tonight when I was talking about a pre-order for an 1130HD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saluki
Is the height of the display adjustable on the 5060 table stand? I am thinking that I may need to place my center channel on the table at the bottom of the display. If it's not adjustable, can someone please indicate the distance from the base of the bezel to the table top surface?

No, it's not adjustable. I haven't measured exactly, but it's approximately 3 inches. In other words, I don't think you can put a center channel speaker on the base without blocking the screen.

never easy, is it?

Any truth to the statement that Pioneer imposes a "minimum sale price" on Elite retailers? In other words, Pioneer will not let the retailer sell below a certain price. I got this tonight when I was talking about a pre-order for an 1130HD.

Yes -They impose MAP on authorized dealers for "posting" sale prices.

If you call for a quote they can then offer discounts but cannot list it for sizes under 61". My experience is quotes from Monitoroutlet, and PlasmaPlanet are significantly less than B&M but they won't post them unless they are clearance or are 61" size. Elites are not supposed to be sold on-line by authorized dealers unless they also have a B&M dealer where in-store purchase can be processed :D .

Good Luck!

So can a B&M sell below the MAP to someone off the street? Or is that a violation of their agreement with Pioneer?

Do you see the same amount judder whether or not you are upscaling (720p/1080i)? If this is the case then I would avoid the Pios for this very reason.

From my testing, I have found the judder to be independent of the upscaling. I run my 59Avi DVD player at 1080i and connect it to my 1110HD via HDMI. I have tried the four different pulldown settings on the player (off, on (3:2), auto1 (3:2), and auto2(3:2)) in combination with the three settings on the PDP (off, std (3:2) and adv (3:3)). I have also tried 480i, 480p, 720p, and VGA for crying out loud.

I have come to the conclusion that the root cause of the Pio judder problems is misinterpretation of flags and candences. I attribute this to by observation that the judder effect is (a) not increased / decreased with any particular combo of player / plasma pulldown or upscaling and (b) it is a function of the material itself. Let me explain.

Secrets of Home Theater (I think it was them...) have reported that the LOTR DVD's are full of flag errors. I have noticed that the judder problem is worse for "live" scenes and virtually zero for digital scenes. Bad judder occurs when Jackson (or his remote director) uses one of those sweeping / rotating landscape shots with a lot of horizontal movement of distant mountains against the sky. The higher the contrast between the mountains and the sky, the more noticeable the judder. It can also be seen in indoor scenes that are live-shot. The effect is really only noticeable in horizontal pans.

For scenes where there is a flyover of a digital scene (e.g., the sweeping shots of Minas Tirith come to mind), the movement is very, very smooth and filmlike except for the first digital scene at the very start of a track / chapter. The very first scene in the chapter does exhibit some judder, but the very next scene does not. I attribute this to candence errors on the part of either the DVD or the Pio.

In the case of HD material, the judder comes and goes, but I have seen it in both live and digital / CGI material. For example, I PVR'ed Attack of the Clones in 1080i off CBC HD, and the scene were Padme's cruiser is landing in the opening scenes, the judder is phenomenally bad. Later, when Anakin & Obi-Wan are chasing the bounty hunter through the night "streets" of Coruscant, everything is silky smooth (and phenomenal to watch with Pio's vibrant colours).

In other words, the Pio certainly can do very, very smooth, filmlike pulldown (I've seen it do it quite a lot) but it seems to get tripped up on some scenes more so than other displays.

My hope (dream?) is that this can be corrected via a firmware upgrade sometime in the future...

Ross

Thanks for the reply, Ross. Do you happen to agree with Rich H that the Panny plasmas handle these scenes with less "strobing"?

So can a B&M sell below the MAP to someone off the street? Or is that a violation of their agreement with Pioneer?
This is a sample of MAP from NEC which Pioneer owns.

EVERY DEALER ADVERTISING UNDER MAP ON COMPARISON PRICE WEBSITES LIKE NEXTAG, PRICEGRABBER, OR DEALTIME ( 30+ MOSTLY NY DEALERS ) HAVE BEEN DE-AUTHORIZED. THIS WILL CUT OFF THEIR ABILITY TO PURCHASE DISPLAYS AND PROJECTORS THROUGH NORMAL CHANNELS. NEC AND ITS AUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTORS WILL NOT SELL TO ANYONE ON THIS DE-AUTHORIZED LIST WITHOUT JEOPARDIZING IT'S ABILITY PURCHASE NEC PRODUCTS. THEY WILL NOT HONOR ANY REBATES OR WARRANTY CLAIMS.

MAP affects only the advertised/listed price they can bargain all they want within their cost threshold when answwering quote requests from on-line offers or in the store - B&M and most dealers determine their levels of price matching or how far they'll discount as it cuts into profits as they do. If they totally restricted pricing you'd have a price fixing issue with the FTC.

ROSS:

Thanks for the evaluation - you and R Harkness are the best at these evaluations - our Canadian AV experts to the north. :D

To those that are trying the 5G stands on the 6G panels...do they fit?? I'm anxiously awaiting some pics/confirmation before I go out and spend a few bucks on a swiveling stand.

Is anyone else bothered by the antenna input limitations? Am I interpreting the situation correctly? (I believe it's the same for the 5th generation.)

There are two inputs, A and B. However, if you want to use digital cable, it has to be on A, and if you want OTA HD, it has to be on A. So, when I get my cable card on Saturday in order to get rid of the cable box, if I want to watch OTA HD using the Pioneer's tuner, I would have to swap cables or install a mechanical switch, since the B input isn't usable for either source.

It's not a huge deal for me, since I actually watch OTA HD via my HD TiVo, but it's an odd design limitation. I suppose it may be the result of picture-in-picture considerations.

OK, the antenna input thing just got a lot less important after I ran the automatic channel setup on the Pioneer, and found that my cable company is apparently providing HDTV for no extra charge, receivable even without the cable card.

There's a fairly well known plasma online site listing the 4360 as "in-stock". I know they're not an authorized online dealer, but do we think anyone actually has these yet or is it a hook?

Could be. But that scene in The Hulk is only one of severl judder tests I use, and the motion problems I see in the Pioneers have been endemic throughout many models, on various material. It's just something I've always seen in their displays.


Hello Rich, Where can I find this scene in The Hulk?

I have come to the conclusion that the root cause of the Pio judder problems is misinterpretation of flags and candences.
I believe in that case feeding the 6G Pio a 1080p@24Hz signal over HDMI should solve all problems (yes, the 6G Pios support 1080p@24Hz over HDMI). The Lumagen video processors should be able to create that signal from any film based SD material.

Not happy. Found 2 dead pixels on my 5061. They were actually pretty noticeable while using the Xbox' main menu and while watching some lighter scenes in movies. For some reason I had been under the impression that plasmas didn't have much of a dead pixel issue. Compared to LCD is plasma on par for having the same number of dead pixels??

I believe in that case feeding the 6G Pio a 1080p@24Hz signal over HDMI should solve all problems (yes, the 6G Pios support 1080p@24Hz over HDMI). The Lumagen video processors should be able to create that signal from any film based SD material.I wonder if we can get Gordon to test it on a 506. :)

Not happy. Found 2 dead pixels on my 5061. They were actually pretty noticeable while using the Xbox' main menu and while watching some lighter scenes in movies. For some reason I had been under the impression that plasmas didn't have much of a dead pixel issue. Compared to LCD is plasma on par for having the same number of dead pixels??I have one stuck pixel (stuck on green) on my 5061. I recall that someone else also reported two stuck pixels on a new Pioneer, so it seems pretty common on these models judging from this very unscientific survey.

You'll have to decide whether to pursue an exchange. To me, it depends on how noticeable the pixels are. My previous plasma had two (or was it three?) stuck pixels, which was disappointing at first, but I forgot about them over time as they weren't noticeable unless I looked for them. Therefore, I'm not going to go through the bother of exchanging the Pioneer.

just an update and covert bump...

someone in the R Harkness review thread has confirmed Canada now has 1130's available at retail...

still no USA sightings.

I just read a post over in the Amps/recievers section from Chris Walker of Pioneer, he's going to be posting the 1 page flyers for the new PDPs from CEDIA conference tonight, and he says that the Elite tech specs/manuals should be posted to Pio's website sometime next week (though he did say this about 3 weeks ago as well and they haven't shown up...but I think we can trust him this time around).

I haven't figured out how to post a link, but it's Post #300 in the Pioneer Product Review thread in the Amps/Receivers section.

I'm also guessing that the specs and details that have been posted here (and in the closed 6G speculation thread) by various posters were not necessarily final versions??

I haven't figured out how to post a link, but it's Post #300 in the Pioneer Product Review thread in the Amps/Receivers section.

I'm also guessing that the specs and details that have been posted here (and in the closed 6G speculation thread) by various posters were not necessarily final versions??
Here's the link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6242581&&#post6242581

Most of the quoted specs have come from "preliminary" brochures originally linked by Eelton in this post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6181927&&#post6181927

eelton -

can you provide the height and width of your 5060 with the speakers included?[U]

thanks!

eelton -

can you provide the height and width of your 5060 with the speakers included?[U]

thanks!Sorry, but I'm not using the speakers (they're still in the sealed box). The height of the panel is 28 1/4 inches. With the tabletop stand, the top of the plasma is 31 1/2 inches above the table.

eelton -

can you provide the height and width of your 5060 with the speakers included?[U]

You can get the dimensions of the 1130, which should be the same, from the Reference Guide that Chris Walker posted. Follow his directions in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=583906

It has drawings with all dimensions shown towards the end of the file.

If you are only looking for width, it is:
55 13/32 with speakers in "air" position (slight gap between speaker and panel)
54 5/16 with speakers flush (no gap)

One thing that I am noticing with the 5061 that I DID NOT notice on the 5051 is that I am seeing the horizontal scan line scroll from bottom to top while watching anything via S-Video or Component. Anyone else seeing this as well?? It is very annoying actually. If there is a fix that would be nice.

One thing that I am noticing with the 5061 that I DID NOT notice on the 5051 is that I am seeing the horizontal scan line scroll from bottom to top while watching anything via S-Video or Component. Anyone else seeing this as well?? It is very annoying actually. If there is a fix that would be nice.I haven't noticed this at all, and I've watched quite a bit through both S-video and component. Is it continuous, or intermittent? You might consider looking at another 5061 (or 4361) at Best Buy to see if it also has the problem. If not, maybe it's a defect in your media box.

I plan on exchanging the panel and the MR on Tues. due to dead pixels and maybe the MR having an issue.

Do you think the scan lines showing could be the result of interference from a connector that is touching another wire or something to that effect?? I have quite a jumble of cords amassed behind the MR now.

Thanks for the quick reply.

-Josh

someone in the R Harkness review thread has confirmed Canada now has 1130's available at retail...


I haven't seen any 5060's or 1130's up here yet. The Pio Canada website doesn't mention these new products at all (they still have the 5050's and 1120's listed). Rich H is reporting that Toronto's leading B&M's (e.g., Bay Bloor) will have them in by the end of the month or early October, which is a week or two from now. His review was based on a unit that was given to a B&M for a short period of time but had to be returned.

Ross

I just read a post over in the Amps/recievers section from Chris Walker of Pioneer, he's going to be posting the 1 page flyers for the new PDPs from CEDIA conference tonight, and he says that the Elite tech specs/manuals should be posted to Pio's website sometime next week (though he did say this about 3 weeks ago as well and they haven't shown up...but I think we can trust him this time around).

I haven't figured out how to post a link, but it's Post #300 in the Pioneer Product Review thread in the Amps/Receivers section.

I'm also guessing that the specs and details that have been posted here (and in the closed 6G speculation thread) by various posters were not necessarily final versions??

It's there you have to search it enter pro 1130hd in the pioneer's website search box

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pio/pe/images/portal/cit_3424/277590846Elite%20Reference%20Guides%20Plasma.pdf

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pio/pe/images/portal/cit_3424/277590834Elite%20PRO-1130HD.pdf

It baffles me as well. But what is more baffling is that Pioneer, and any salesmen selling Pioneer, will tout the Pioneer's superior motion processing. I have to wonder if they actually ever test this out, rather than look at marketing and specs.

For instance, when I was at the launch demo of the Pioneer Elite Purevision models the Pioneer Rep (very technical guy) had touted the superior motion processing, especially the 3:3 pulldown. So (as I wrote in my "review" at the time) I pulled out a couple DVDs that test for judder. On the trusty shot in The Hulk with the machinery passing by the motion looked awful - very juddery and staggered. But the Rep sort of said "see?" I pointed out it looked none too smooth. Then he said "well, it's probably not set to the 3:3 pulldown, which will be superior." So he sets it to 3:3, we replay the scene, and it looks WORSE! The machinery no longer simply stutters past the screen, it strobes and flickers off and on...like it was driving the processor berserk. It was just brutal, and even more objectionable than the 2:3 processing. As we switched back and forth between 2:3 and 3:3 processing the Rep sort of hummed and hawed and, even though we were seeing with our eyes these problems he still clung to the "superior processing" line.

Ah well....

I concur with Rich here. I had the 4G consumer model for nearly 1 year and I started thinking something was wrong with the display. The brightness, pop and colours were fantastic but something was wrong. I initially could not place the problem till someone said PIO judder. Then there was. The tearing/judder or whatever it is called. I would describe it as that the top half of the screen actaully moves a step infront of the bottom. Very noticable if the pans from right to left or left to right includes a object fills the height of the plasma. It is the same with the 5G consumer plasma. I have since switched to the 43MXE-1 which is the same as the 434cmx or the 4G commercial model. There is a feature here called FRC which is frame rate conversion and in standard frc1 mode, this problem is exactly the same. It reads, convert all freq to a "native" PIO freq for best PQ. FRC2 mode leaves 60hz as 60hz and 50hz is converted to 100hz. So PAL is smooth and NTSC is sweet as well. I have a Lumagen Scaler and it confirms that it accept native rate at these two frequency. So after having the 4G consumer model for nearly a year, I can safely say that FRC1 in the commercial model is what we have in the 4G and 5G models.

I have not seen the 6G PIO models here yet so cant really comment. But if Rich says that he has looked at the 5G and 6G next to each other and sees this as well ...... =p You know what I think already.

Oh well... hopefully the new commercial models using the 6G PIO Panel is coming out soon.

Oliver

There is a feature here called FRC which is frame rate conversion and in standard frc1 mode, this problem is exactly the same. It reads, convert all freq to a "native" PIO freq for best PQ. FRC2 mode leaves 60hz as 60hz and 50hz is converted to 100hz. So PAL is smooth and NTSC is sweet as well. I have a Lumagen Scaler and it confirms that it accept native rate at these two frequency. So after having the 4G consumer model for nearly a year, I can safely say that FRC1 in the commercial model is what we have in the 4G and 5G models.
That is very interesting. But why then is the consumer Pio smooth for some sources, while it judders for other?

If I can ask a couple of naive questions about this judder issue...Are people seeing this just on DVDs, or on all sources? And regarding the 2:3 or 3:3 pulldown processing, this would only apply to interlaced inputs, right? With a progressive output, I would assume this processing has already been done by the DVD player. Is the judder the same with interlaced vs. progressive outputs from a DVD player?

I haven't watched much in the way of DVDs on my 5061, as I've been sticking to HD movies (my condo building subscribes to all of the premium channels, and since getting my cablecard yesterday, I suddenly have more HD movie channels than I know what to do with, in addition to everything I have recorded on my HD-TiVo from DirecTV). Maybe I'm just blind or oblivious, but I haven't seen the judder on these sources.

If I can ask a couple of naive questions about this judder issue...Are people seeing this just on DVDs, or on all sources? And regarding the 2:3 or 3:3 pulldown processing, this would only apply to interlaced inputs, right? With a progressive output, I would assume this processing has already been done by the DVD player. Is the judder the same with interlaced vs. progressive outputs from a DVD player?

I haven't watched much in the way of DVDs on my 5061, as I've been sticking to HD movies (my condo building subscribes to all of the premium channels, and since getting my cablecard yesterday, I suddenly have more HD movie channels than I know what to do with, in addition to everything I have recorded on my HD-TiVo from DirecTV). Maybe I'm just blind or oblivious, but I haven't seen the judder on these sources.Eelton, It's one of those things that is subtle and most people don't ever see it or notice it. It takes us OC AVS folks to look for the finest details in performance. If you don't see it, don't look too hard for it, or you will then notice it more often (if it is there at all in your setup).