Ok thank you. I guess I will keep using the DVE then. I just wish I knew if the rumours are true if that DVD is only 16-235 or is it full StdioRGB which is 0-255

stylinlp: no rumors here, Avia is 16-235, Avia PRO and DVE and DVE PRO are all 0-255. Some patterns on the 0-255 discs may be limited to 16-235 this is described in the manual. If you're using DVE, the ramps are full-range ramps, reference black (16) and reference white (235) are marked at each end of the ramp by a trio of dots. There should be no clipping or plateu of the ramps or steps anywhere in this pattern clear out to the edge of the pattern, if there is clipping/plateau of the pattern this indicates system clipping.

hope that helps!

Get Gray

Thank you for the effort in making the disk. I would like to download it and also send a donation but was unable to download the beta version and I am unable to see any download link in this tread. I did not see any link in capture.tv. Just a suggestion- Could you put a link to the latest download on your signature file? This will help anyone reading your post to go to the calibration disk download straightaway.

You are welcome. There is not link because there is no disc, not ina state I'd want anyone to have right this minute. I pulled the original link because I didn't want folks to get something that was incomplete, but more importantly not accurate. The new bits and pieces are accurate, I'm busy assembling them, *then* I can get back to beta test mode.

It's a good idea about the signature, however since it' sturning into so much work, I'll likely choose to charge a little for the disc (very little relatively speaking). If I do I might not be able to link the disc in my sig without getting in trouble with the admins, dunno. Maybe I can get permission? Bob?

Ok thank you. I guess I will keep using the DVE then. I just wish I knew if the rumours are true if that DVD is only 16-235 or is it full StdioRGB which is 0-255

All DVDs are 16-235, the *only* time you ever see video 0-255 is on special test patterns, DVDs are "not" mastered 0-255, I have measured, and for some reason they do not use the same DR dynamic range as the "special" test patterns on DVE?

DVE test pattern 0-255 measured p-p 800mV

AVP 16-235 measured p-p 700mV

Sin City 16-235 measured p-p 700mV

I scoped the YPbPr output of my DVD player with a component waveform. It is calibrated i.e. DVE test patterns was the only "video" that contained info above white, and below the 7.5% my player was adding to the analog output.

I also know I was calibrated, for DVE white was indeed 700mv and DVE/BTB OmV. For the commercial DVDs they did *NOT* make use of the DR compared to DVE..
i.e. the commercial DVD black was 7.5% and white was 700mV. Compared to DVE that had test patterns that measured 800mV p-p (black was not at 7.5%, it was 0%) and the peak white 255 content was the measured 800mV.

Any DVD mastered 0-255 is *not* a Region 1 NTSC compliant MASTER, per (Rec 601 & 709) :)
Attempting to suggest that peak-peak video is 800mV or 0-255 is :confused:

tbrunet: DO NOT get into a pissing match over this issue here. Take it somewhere else. It is most unwelcome here. Chris, et al, do not feed the issue. IRE, digital levels, volts, etc. can be discussed in their own threads. NO ONE HERE agrees with you. STOP jumping on every thread I have and bringing the issue up. PLEASE. I've read every single post you've made on th e issue. It all comes down to semantics. Get over it. Let it go. Go away if you can't.

tbrunet: NO ONE HERE agrees with you. .

stylinlp had a question, and I responded with measured "FACTS".

GetGray,
We are beyond semantics, someone does not know what they are talking about!
Edit/
dlarsen likens this, to attempting to explain i.e. "there are no green pens"
meaning: while they do exist, NO ONE USES THEM! :D

Thank you. Much appreciated.

I think I saw a thread a couple of years ago that showed screen grabs from DVDs which highlighted BTB data. It might have been from Guy Kuo though I could be wrong. The images supplied highlighted the BTB data with white to show where it was present in the image, and it was suggested it that it happenned a lot more than we think. One of the images supplied was with Leonard DiCaprio IIRC, and it might have been from Catch me if You Can but seem to remember it was an image of him sitting in a chair (outside?). Does that ring any bells to anyone?

I set my pj to video levels so I wouldn't see that data anyway.

Gary.

If you've been following along you know my patterns will repeat until the user presses "next" (except for the automated grayscale sequence). This is the popular behavior unlike "some calibration discs :)" which timeout in the middle of what you are doing and move along. But, if a user forgot they were running the disc and went to work or something, I don't want the disc to burn their screen (if possible), so I to would like to have a timeout, just a really long one. Anyone have an opinion the maximum time a pattern could sit on a screen and not cause any problems? I was thinking 5-10 minutes per pattern as a timeout. Remember, by pattern I mean an individual pattern (i.e. a 30% gray window). If the user does nothing for the allotted timeout, the disc will either move to the next pattern or go back to the menu. May be too difficult to implement, but if I can I need to choose a target timeout.

Opinions?

I think I saw a thread a couple of years ago that showed screen grabs from DVDs which highlighted BTB data.
Gary.

This data is "transition overshoot" of white to black or (filter ringing), this kind of analog transition is emphasized as edge detail. Not to be confused with different rules of coding black and white excursion limits.

dlarsen posted some histograms that showed the small percentage of info outside the 16/235 offset did not account for any perceived picture content.

This detail was in the image all over the place, not just edges. I'll have to see if I can dig out the link for you.

Gary.

Sorry GetGray, deleted as requested
Regards
Paul

Hey guys, PLEASE. If you want to start a BTB on DVD thread, go start one. This has ZERO to do with this thread. Please. This thread is to discuss the developemt of a calibration disc. If you have a specific question about the patterns, their levels, etc. that would be appropriate. Please do not feed the No-BTB-troll and take this thread OT as has been done many, many times before. Please...

I think timing out after 5 mins back to the menu would be best if it can be done. Or to a screen saver type pattern

I don't think I can do a screen saver pattern, but it's a very good idea. The DVD command sequences are a cross between basic and assembler, with limited commends either way. I'll see what I can do.
I'll have to come up witha "screen saver video" That will be the hardest part. It woudl have to not violate copyrights and I don't have any family movies sitting around everyone woudl like :). Maybe I can find a royalty free clip of something. Any suggestions anyone?

Scott

The video could be just a copyright, contact or buy info moving screen that is looped

I have PMed Gary the link to what he is talking about.

I will not get into this with Thomas in this thread, but I am more than happy to help Gary or others, please check my signature you will find that thread linked there as well as explanations and theory behind the reference points, etc.

If anyone has questions about levels in patterns or test discs, please consider that relevant. But I'm not going to get into an arguing match about what levels are "legal" or correct on DVDs, or subjective issues of how visible such levels may be, that has been hashed out already many times.

Thanks!

Chris, your and Gary's input and discussion is most welcome, as always. I don't mean to be so rude to tbrunet, and it's nothing personal, but I do not want to hash over that particular subject here as I posted.

But for those new to the issue, or jsut reading the thread monitoring the cal disc progress, note that the issue tbrunet touched on has come up several times on other threads and has taken said threads off course. I'm all for discussing "it" ;), just in a thread of it's own, as I've said several times in the other theads as well.

Anyone interested in the subject of levels on DVD in general can find a wealth of information, including the misc. tangents in the excellent "Source Settings Guide" linked in Chis's signature.

Thanks guys. Scott

contact or buy info moving screen that is loopedI like the way you think. :):). I think my Adobe Premiere will let me zoom and pan around, I've never tried it. Shouldn't be hard though and that would suffice as a screen saver in some low intensity colors. I'll see what I can make happen...

Thanks for the idea! Scott

I think we are seeing some "feature creep" issues here. (Thats where software never sees the light of day because developer(s) is (are) too busy improving it to ever release it). ;)

In my experience, it's always better to take smaller steps and have others validate the results.

Vern

I understand and am planning to not let that happen.

I had just ran into an issue of a detail on "normal" intermediate level title navigation programming. It had to do with whether or not the user pressed next on the last pattern in a sequence, or let it timeout. In the more basic command structure I normally use, a timeout gives the proper behavior, but a "next" gives the undesirable result of skipping the next sequence. In some cases that happens to be the first chapter of the first link in the subsequent (semi-unrelated) menu. Which can be confusing to the user.

I had to solve that which is done. Since that requires advanced navigation programming and the more complex "DVD command sequences" it's not significantly more difficult to go on and do the things I've mentioned related to navigation. Just a little more time :(

The navagation details are one of the things this disc is meant to be better at so I hated to let it out with any big'uns (boo boos). Other that than, I'm done, no plans for significant additions, no more features at this time. No more feature additions until a final version 1 is out. Trying to wrap it up. To many irons in the fire <smile>. Anything else to add will come at V.2. And maybe some of what's in this Beta will go to V2 as well if they cause me any unexpected delay (i.e. lipsync).

Thanks for the input. Much appreciated.

Best,
Scott

my vote for a time-out screen saver is a blank, possibly BTB, screen which has absolute minimum impact on the video display.... and should be easier for you to accomplish... :D

:cool:

Scott, I sent you a PM, re: Beta 4 "Boo Boo" (may be due to the way I created the DVD?).

Screen saver is not needed, IMHO {but I defer to the majority}.

The one you have is loaded with navigation errors. That's why no one else has it. It's just the patterns for you to know what they are on the disc. Plenty to clean up vs what you have. :). I'm not holding anything up with the screensaver. Probably deferred to a later release anyway. I know about the color ramps blips at the illegal color ends. Has to do with illegal YCbCr transforms. It's not in final. Not to worry :).

IMHO, a screen saver should NOT be part of a calibration disc.

The whole point of a calibration disc is to give total control to the calibrator, and I certainly don't want the disc to do ANYTHING without my having told it to do so.

Just my $.02.

Vern

I'm just a lurker on this post, but I also agree that a screensaver is unnecessary. I thought the original intent of this disc was as a tool primarily for DLP and non-CRT users. So in that case, screen burn in is not a worry.

Scott

My concern is one of liability. It's the USA. Soem bozo is bound to bring up a 100% gray window on his spiffy new $10k plasma, then go on vacation. And same bozo is or knows how to file suits at little expense saying my disc smoked his TV. Just considering protecting the stupid. And me. Naturally paranoid I suppose.

*IF* I put it in, a "normal" user should neve see it in the course of using it. Very, very long timeouts like 10 minutes on a specific pattern.

You could require people to sign a Bozo-proof waiver on their stupidity.

My concern is one of liability. It's the USA. Soem bozo is bound to bring up a 100% gray window on his spiffy new $10k plasma, then go on vacation. And same bozo is or knows how to file suits at little expense saying my disc smoked his TV. Just considering protecting the stupid. And me. Naturally paranoid I suppose.

*IF* I put it in, a "normal" user should neve see it in the course of using it. Very, very long timeouts like 10 minutes on a specific pattern.
Ah, I hadn't considered the liability factor. I don't blame you at all in that case. I thought it was just a feature you were adding.

Scott

Soem bozo is bound to bring up a 100% gray window on his spiffy new $10k plasma, then go on vacation.

If you are going to worry about that, then you should start worrying about EVERYTHING. Suppose that same bozo slices his wrist on the DVD sleeve and bleeds to death. Suppose that same bozo tries to play the test disc on his car CD player and he goes deaf from the digital noise coming from his 3000 watt car audio system.

Remember, you intentioned this disc to be a digital calibration disc, and technically speaking, plasmas have analog roots despite being a digital technology. Digital displays are not prone to burn is and thus do not require timeouts and/or screen savers. You can't be responsible for EVERY possible way in which Bozo can screw things up. If you still decide on a timeout, can you set it to 3 days please? I have left patterns up for well over an hour on several occasions already - purposely! ...:) Trying to adjust the grayscale by sight on an Optoma using the deep ramps can take at least an hour or so, and that's if you are lucky!

I've fot the first Draft of the Instructions done. I'll email a copy to you, Scott, and to ChrisWiggles (if you send me your email address).

As for the liability & screen saver issue (especially with the nod to Bob Sorel), we could always put in a disclaimer (anti-bozo clause, ala Microsoft) like:
“The author and his collaborators are not responsible or liable for any damage due to the use of this Video material under any circumstances :eek:.”

PS -- I'm an engineer, not a lawyer :D

sent you my email. Though don't know if you really want to send a copy to me, because I can make things SO complicated, SO fast... :D

I'm no engineer or lawyer. I'll go through your EULA and make sure all the grammar is correct ;)

Thanks Chris. I passed your email info to Scott. He liked my approach, but he suggests that it needs some technical help (which I expected). I almost missed your email, since it was kidnapped by my spam-eater.

Scott suggested that I should send my Draft #1a to some of the other technical contributors for their editorial comments (I'm still somewhat of a experienced calibration novice and just the acting wordsmith here :D).

If any of you, that have Scott's Beta 4.0 copy, and have the time to provide some help, please send me a PM, or email, with your email address. If you email me, it may get grabbed by my spam-eater program, but I do check it for bad "deletes" :eek:.

BTW, Scott said that he went through a power outage due to the storms in his area, so he's in the catch-up mode right now.

While in waiting for GetGray's disc a buddy talked me into using his old copy of Avia. All went well but I have a question. After going through the calibration the pic turned out to be darker than we're used to. Not that this isn't a good thing but we're going to have to get used to it. The question at hand is: Despite the DLP being darker than were accustom to it still suffers from black crush. I had hoped Avia would fix this issue. For instance, a scene where a man is wearing a black suite shows no button holes, folds, etc. Could this result from using an older version of Avia that at the time of production didn't address the needs of DLP technology?

If you use title 1 chapter 4 of Avia, the black level will be set for high contrast, but if you use T1C1 the white field will close the eyes iris and you will set the black level higher (since it is harder to see the black bars). The ANSI contrast will also reduce the visibility of the black bars so that again will mean a raised black level and reduced CR compared to what you will get of you used T1C1.

I personaly use T1C1 for maximum contrast so that the darkest scenes portray black correctly but still display shadow detail dark scenes with bright content will lose detail comparatively). Setting it too high means that black is lighter/greyer than it can be and colours will desaturate quicker as they approacj the haze that should be black.

Gary.

I honestly don't know anything about the cal as I was busy wiring the 7.1 surround system while my buddy was cal'ing the TV. I occasionally looked up to see the screens used. He did offer me a copy but of course I'd be short the R/G/B filters unless I get them elsewhere.

Has to do with illegal YCbCr transforms.
Not all YCbCr codewords convert to "legal" RGB codewords. For example, you can create an image at a single Y level that uses all the combinations of Cb and Cr. This one is at level 65.

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/9303/ycbcrall657la.th.jpg (http://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ycbcrall657la.jpg)

But many many RGB values have been clipped to 0 or 255. Here's the same image, but only the valid RGB values are included.

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/3492/ycbcr656cu.th.jpg (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ycbcr656cu.jpg)

Other levels (35, 84, 112, 131, 162, 180, 200, 220)

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/7500/ycbcr353jf.th.jpg (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ycbcr353jf.jpg)
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/614/ycbcr846gj.th.jpg (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ycbcr846gj.jpg)
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/5326/ycbcr1125fl.th.jpg (http://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ycbcr1125fl.jpg)
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/1442/ycbcr1311ha.th.jpg (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ycbcr1311ha.jpg)
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/2742/ycbcr1628ch.th.jpg (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ycbcr1628ch.jpg)
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/5584/ycbcr1808oh.th.jpg (http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ycbcr1808oh.jpg)
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/1306/ycbcr2006jl.th.jpg (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ycbcr2006jl.jpg)
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5476/ycbcr2203qi.th.jpg (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ycbcr2203qi.jpg)

Ron

"Other levels (35, 84, 112, 131, 162, 180, 200, 220)"

you lost me on that one....

:confused:

"Other levels (35, 84, 112, 131, 162, 180, 200, 220)"

you lost me on that one....

:confused:
Each picture is all the Cb and Cr levels for one level of Y (luma) with the invalid RGB "colors" deleted. The upper left hand corner of the white outline is Cb = 16 and Cr = 16. The lower right hand corner of the white outline is Cb = 240 and Cr = 240. Cb increases from right to left and Cr increases from top to bottom.

So the bottom picture is luma level 220. The valid RGB colors form a small triangle that includes bright white and yellow. Combinations such as Y = 220, Cb = 16, Cr = 16 (and many other combinations) are not valid RGB colors.

It's a way of showing that RGB to YCbCr conversion is a form of compression. Each unique RGB combination does not map to a unique YCbCr combination and many YCbCr combinations are not used at all.

Each picture is also a two dimensional slice of the cube on this webpage:

http://www.broadcastpapers.com/telecine/GVGMPEG04.htm

Ron

dr1394 - Ron,

I know this is OT but could you clear this up for me. Given: HD video at 1920 X 1080 has six time the pixels of SD 704 X 480. Some people claim that the MPEG-2 data rates will need to be six times greater for 1920 (MPEG-2 Blu-ray Disc) than 704/720 (standard DVD). True or False? If false, could you please explain or point me to a reference(s).
I'm pretty sure MPEG2 won't be used too often on blu-ray or HD-DVD. Rather H.264 and the various MPEG4 like codecs will more than likely become the defacto encoding option. And those codecs of course are much more efficient, so 6x the data shouldn't be needed.

They won't be using MPEG2, as mentioned, they'll be using h264 or vc1, compression rates are much improved over mpeg2.

dr1394 - Ron,

I know this is OT but could you clear this up for me. Given: HD video at 1920 X 1080 has six time the pixels of SD 704 X 480. Some people claim that the MPEG-2 data rates will need to be six times greater for 1920 (MPEG-2 Blu-ray Disc) than 704/720 (standard DVD). True or False? If false, could you please explain or point me to a reference(s).
Hi Wendell,

You have to stop reading all that FUD and BS from the MPEG-2 haters over in the "Latest HiDef DVD News" thread.;)

It's a good question, and it's a bit difficult to answer with hard numbers. However, it's clear that you don't need 6X, otherwise all OTA HD at 18 Mbps would look pretty bad (and of course, it doesn't).

There's many factors at play. Some of it has to do with the entropy of the image (since after all, MPEG-2, H.264 and VC-1 are all entropy coders). Some of it has to do with the size of the blocks. In HD, you can get away with a little higher quantization and you can crank up the psycho-visual masking.

Some folks have proclaimed "I, Robot" on D-VHS to be the benchmark for HD MPEG-2. If it's the same as previous D-Theater releases, it's 23 Mbps CBR done with a real-time encoder at 29.97 fps with no inverse telecine. Just by using inverse telecine or 24p encoding, you can get almost exactly the same encoding quality at (23 * 0.8) Mbps, or 18.4 Mbps. Add multi-pass VBR encoding (with peaks up to around 30 Mbps), and you can have some mighty fine image quality with good old MPEG-2 at 18 Mbps average.

Ron

And the highest quality MPEG-2 DVD is around 8 Mbps, so that's (18 Mbps) a little over 2x the data rate (the D-VHS, Ron is talking about, is only about 4x the data rate).

They won't be using MPEG2, as mentioned, they'll be using h264 or vc1, compression rates are much improved over mpeg2.
The first Blu-ray disc uses MPEG-2, according to a recent article (http://www.aviransplace.com/index.php/archives/2005/11/18/sony-completes-first-full-length-blu-ray-disc/).

It's a good question, and it's a bit difficult to answer with hard numbers. However, it's clear that you don't need 6X, otherwise all OTA HD at 18 Mbps would look pretty bad (and of course, it doesn't).
Are you implying that one channel of 18 Mbps HD has fewer compression artifacts than six channels of 3 Mbps SD?

wow.... this thread has REALLY gone OT... :eek:

:cool:

That's a good sign. GetGray must be hard at work.

"This is in good sprit so do not take it personally. You should not have responded because it was addressed to a specified member and you should delete your post."

oh?? I think not.... FWIW, a PM to Ron and opening a new thread would have been much more appropriate, considering how FAR ot it went.... of course, that's how my "spirits" feel....

:cool:

that might be so erik, but it's very well settled that h264 or vc1 will be the codecs used in the future, they're being encoded now in-house.

That's a good sign. GetGray must be hard at work.Actually, Yesterday was nothing but Mickey and Pluto, but I'm actually dragging my little thing (caldisc that is) around with me in FL. I do have a related question however. I'm posting as a separate thread; becasue as subject that could be OT and thus get more input from others, or benefit others via a archive search, it's appropriate to do so :)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6573801#post6573801

Cleaning up color ramps. I've changed their format to include corresponding gray ramps side by side on each color. I've also changed the background to about a 30% gray so one can see where the color ramp actually ends. The method of cutting 2 color channels completely on below video level color ramps (i.e. 5,0,0) was causing encoder artifacts in those ranges. Color ramps now do not include BTB or WTW information. Commercial discs have the same levels as mine and also don't include this color information. Sample red:
http://www.calibrate.tv/red-ramps.jpg

Color ramps now do not include BTB or WTW information

Bad move, IMHO. It's much easier to see exactly where white and black are set and whether the colors are saturating when the full 0-255 range is included in the ramp. (Or maybe how about 2 sets, one with and one without...) After all, you are trying to eliminate the shortcomings in the other discs.......

Vern

Vern:

I think it's a limitation of the RGB to YCbCr transformation calculations. These are odd patterns anyway. Unlike every other pattern, in these color ramps I'm literally turning off the other 2 colors. That is, thay are set to level 0, even though 16 is "off" in video levels. So that causes some unusual combinations (i.e. 0,0,5). I noticed the same limitation on the other commercial discs, they are doing it exactly as I've done it. I'll see if I can get the full range, but I don't think the YCbCr formulas will allow it. I'll check on it some more.

OK, if you never had it working because of technical limitations, then that's fine too.
I just didn't want to see something that was already there go away.

Eagerly awaiting the chance to test the fruits of your efforts......

Vern

Scott - Since 0 and 255 are illegal, have you tried setting the values to "1"?

Later,
Bill

Scott - Since 0 and 255 are illegal, have you tried setting the values to "1"?Yep, figured you'd call me on that :). I meant 1, I just said 0. But I tried it both ways. It is at one now. Check you PM in a few minutes...

All:

I have Beta 4.2a ready for use and testing. I apologize for the time it's taken to get past the hump from the general release of Beta 2. I've been diligent in getting everthing right in the way of pattern color accuracy and I have dr1394's mpeg expertise to thank for the level of accuracy (perfect for mpeg) in the colors.

After posting this message, I'll be sending the links and access information to the Beta testers here who have been actively helping and/or who have contributed to the project.

There is still plenty to do before it's ready for a general release but at this time I will declare it usable for those who have been following along and wish to participate in testing, or just use the disc's patterns.

Beta 4.2a is primarliy about getting menus right and navigation working correctly, as well as incorporating the accurate patterns. A lot has changed or been added since Beta2, it's not the same disc anymore. It is still quite simple however and may get further simplification yet. Note there are no screensaver routines. I mention this in case anyone is expecting them so they won't try to get them to appear.

Still to do:

* Add audio tracks to lipsync pattern. 4.2 has no audio, it's not your player. This means no lipsync beeps, and no automatic grayscale beeps for use with OpticOne/Progressive Labs CA6X colorimeters.
* Add/change disclaimers, EULA
* Add 20/80 and 30/70 gray "rocking" pattern sequences
* Edit and incorporate documentation from contributing beta testers (Lead=Claus)
* Tweak, verify final patterns including adjusting encoding parameters to get the best sharp edge transitions.
* Possibly eliminate frequencey paterns. I'm lookng for input on these to see if they are providing a useful pattern.
* Possibly eliminate the "Quick Sequence" selection. This is redundant information and with the exception of the 10%-step gray sequence, all patters are reproduced at the main menu levels. This is there for the Accucal software primarily. At the least, This beta has it so Bob will have one good disc with correct colors and the pattern :)
* Update website with current menus and patterns

Except for what's been pointed out above, let me know what errors or problems you encounter.

[edit, beta user signup link removed]

I'll update post #1 with a shortcut to this post to help others just starting.

Thanks, Scott

For those non-beta testers, you may visit www.calibrate.tv for instructions on how to contribute and get added to the beta access list.

I would like to contribute but I'm having trouble with the above link.

Hi, I just took delivery of a WS-65815 Mitsubishi this weekend. If your not familiar with this RPTV it has 9" guns. This is my 3rd Mit RPTV and I have enjoyed all of them. During my month or so of research to decide which way I wanted to go...DLP. LCD, Plasma, I ran across a ton of info on calibration disc and procedures. Being an engineer and ham operator I love to tinker and have always done my own alignments on my RPTV's. That being said I was surprised to find out that there were disc on the market to do these alignments. Is yours available for sale yet? Is there some reason that you are saying it is for fixed pixel tvs :( ? Thanks Mike/KD9RG

Mike: see www.calibrate.tv. My disc is not the best for CRT's. For example, no blooming patterns for setting contrast, no convergence patterns to align your guns.

I just read some interesting info on a new product coming out for adjusting tv's. The link to the announcement is: http://i-newswire.com/pr51002.html. From there you can use the link in the announcement to view the product. Has anyone seen or heard of this product which is called SpyderTV? If this shouldn't be part of this thread please let me know where to post.

Has anyone seen or heard of this product which is called SpyderTV?
Nope.

this shouldn't be part of this thread please let me know where to post.Since this has nothing directly to do with the calibration disc, it should more properly belong elsewhere thread-wise. In one of the Spyder TV threads would be appropriate. But looking to see if there was a SpyderTV thread would have answered your question I suppose. Search is your friend here on AVS.

For those looking at Beta 4.2a. I know there are some compression artifacts in some of the mpegs on the DVD. I'm redoing those patterns. Probably the "alignment pattern" is the worst. 4.2a was primarily a release for navigation and general "feel" input. Gray and color patterns should be fine.

ok. Let me tap your experience. What is my best bet as far as calibration disk so that I can do it myself? Thanks. Mike/KD9RG

There are entire threads on Avia vs DVE. I couldn't answer. A pro level set is best for CRTs I'd think, i.e. Avia Pro or DVE Pro, but they are very, expensive. Search for "+Avia +DVE" and you'll get a bunch of opinions.

GetGray,

Will your cal disc project require RGB filters to make proper use of or get the most benefit from your system? If so will you supply these filters or info on where to get them?

GetGray,

Will your cal disc project require RGB filters to make proper use of or get the most benefit from your system? If so will you supply these filters or info on where to get them?
for color decoder adjustment you will either need the filters or the ability to turn off the three primary color independently on your TV (usually only available via the service menu). You can get color filters from thx.com or with DVE/Avia. I doubt GetGray will be supplying these.

GetGray,

Will your cal disc project require RGB filters to make proper use of or get the most benefit from your system? If so will you supply these filters or info on where to get them?
Yes, no Mikes right, and yes.
Must use filters or be able to turn off other color channels. I the doc Claus and I are working on I supply the part number and location to get high quality filters. From that doc (no treleased yet):

"For professional results, one may use a Deep Blue Tricolor 47B filter available from photographic supply companies (part #LEB47B3 from www.adorama.com, or www.bhphotovideo.com). One may be able to obtain consumer grade filters by ordering from from the THX(r) website in cardboard glasses form (see DVD/THX Optimizer section)"

I have not used the 47B, someone told me about it, and I've seen it listed on one of the other caldisc sites as well. Personally I like the THX glasses. Cheezy but they work well since I don't have to try to squit through one eye and I have both hands free. Free from THX ($2.00/pair shipping) while they last :).

HTH

GetGray

I have a basic ? For those of us that are new to DLP, can we improve the PQ by using Digital Video Calibration DVD without getting into the service menu? My HLR4667W allows for the basic adjustments (color,brite,cont etc) but not things like gamma and a slew of other settings without going to the service menu.

TIA
bnw

bnwbass : IMHO, the fundamental adjustments are brightness, contrast, color, and tint. Most folks need some sort of test pattern to set these optimally. Experienced calibrators may be able to do it by eye. For brightness and contrast my DVD has very good patterns. FOr color and tint, it also has suitable patterns, but I did not give out a blue filter to look through to make the adjustment. This is required, see a few posts back on where to get one.

And anyone can look at a grayscale ramp and see if it looks close. Each color should be a similar difference in brightness from each other and there shoudl be no color in it (i.e. reddish at white end). I don't recommend someone use that to eyeball a calibration, unless the display is forgiving allowing you to record it's original settings and put them back without penalty. But you would at least know how deserving the set was of a real calibration by being able to see a grayscale.

Similarly for colorbar patterns, you can at least look at them and see if they look right. Is magenta purple?, yellow green?, etc. If they don't look right you can look in to a calibration.

So yes, I think anyone with a nice display owes it to themselves to get some sort of calibration disc. Whether it be mine, Avia, or DVE, or something else. Which one is right for you is your call. Mine has the patterns needed for the fundamentals at least as described above. The other have more stuff you may or may not need.

Personally I recommend anyone with a nice set get it calibrated if they can. Unless it's perfectly suitable for them as-is. Even if you aren't the calibrator though, it's helpful to be albe to set your brightness and contrast properly.

Scott:

Rader posted a colorimeter spreadsheet with a tab for GetGray. Do you recommend it in conjunction with your disk?

Thanks.

I don't understand. You mean a tab for grayscale? I'm not following the other threads, I don't know what the post was about, so I can't say. Maybe Bill?

The Excel spread sheet is found here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=587485

Scott:

Rader posted a colorimeter spreadsheet with a tab for GetGray. Do you recommend it in conjunction with your disk?

Thanks.OK, I took a look at it. If you mean do I recommend my DVD for use with it, yes, my disc should work fine with it, The author chose my DVD to use with it. My DVD apparantly has what is needed for the spreadsheet. If you mean do I recommend the spreadsheet and device in general, I'm not familiar with the Spyder personally. I'd think any device would be better than eyballing a setup. But I can't asy one way or the other if the device and spreadsheet are suitable for your application. I expect it would be though. Hope that helps.

FYI, I always reply within 24 hours to contributors at www.calibrate.tv. If you followed the instrucitons at www.calibrate.tv and didn't get a reply in 24hrs (usually much less), E-mail me (no PM) to the address on that site. I had about 3 guys who reported they didn't get their info. I don't know why. Spam filters or something, who knows. One guy had a spam responder that you have to fill out a form in order to send mail. I don't have time for that, so if you have such setups, be sure to add the address to your whitelists so the message will get through. If you *still* don't hear back from me, then PM me here becasue something is intercepting the mail. HTH

Hi GetGray,

i have tested the 4.2 Pattern RGB Values from the DVD and have become some issues. I don't now exactly comes this from the DVD ore from my HTPC but I feel sooner from the DVD.

The RGB Values for Black and White are all at the expected Value like 16/16/16 for Black and 235/235/235 for White. Also the Grayscale Values are all fine.

But the Primary and Secondary Values are not all at the Point. Its not many but there are little differences at:
Green= 16/236/17
Red= 235/16/15
Cyan= 235/16/234
Magenta= 235/16/234

Only Blue and Yellow are at the expected Values.

I have test it with DScaler 5 Codec, VMR9 and the ColorCop- Tool from http://www.prall.net/tools/colorcop/

Don't now exactly if the issue on the Disk ore at my HTPC. Can you confirm the Issue? Ore have you a Idea from what this comes?

Rgds Damdy

There is always difficulty getting the precise level everywhere, even the PRO discs are usually within one level precision, because it is compressed and such.

i have tested the 4.2 Pattern RGB Values from the DVD and have become some issues. I don't now exactly comes this from the DVD ore from my HTPC but I feel sooner from the DVD.Damdy, et.al:
Thanks for checking them, and verifying what you saw. What you saw is "correct". The patterns are created in 8 bit RGB. They are then converted to Digital YUV (YCbCr) which is what's stored on a DVD. I check each YCbCr color to ensure it is the correct YCbCr value manually. This is done by decoding the mpeg file and examining the YCbCr values with a hex editor. PITA but I had to prove it to myself they were correct. The errors by 1 you see on the patterns come from your YCbCr to RGB conversion. The calculations cause this due to rounding errors and the limits of working in 8 bit space.

The bad news is this is correct. The good news is I have verified the pro disc sets have the identical errors. Some patterns on some disc sets, I won't say which ones, are off by much much more (significantly). By definition of the Studio RGB levels to YCbCr formulas, those rounding errors will appear when they come out the end of a RGB -> YCbCr -> RGB conversion. Nothing anyone can do about it. It's a limitation of the technology. But I think 1-off represents a 0.45% error (0.0045). I can live with that. The pro discs do, too :).

Best, Scott

Here's a E-mail conversation between Bob and myself covering some observations and experiences he had, and some suggestions with my answers FYI. Some of it summarized for brevity:
-------------------------------
Bob:

Here's the answers to your questions which I summarrized. OK to post on the
thread?

re: navigation worked when you did not include the .lay file but ahd problems on one player and one burn method via Nero:

That's wierd. It's created as part of the process. None of my players has a problems with it. I'll try to research what it is. I think it's the layout file, and I
think it's needed, but for what, I dunno exactly.

re: some patterns timed out on your Oppo and moved to next pattern (this on disc with potential other problems mentioned above, may be disc or method causing issue):

The patterns should loop over and over. I have no timeouts programmed in.
None, nada. No screen save business on 4.2a. Each item should loop. They
all loop on my players.

re: opening screen navigation difficulty.

I'm compelled to have a disclaimer of some sort. But a couple others had some trouble getting past it too. So now I've changed it so it's actually a menu with one button. That ought to work on anything. Ver 4.2b is on the site if you want to try it. That is the only change on 4.2b.

re: change grayscale to be on top and bottom of pattern becasue ramps can be covered up by the device' s menu/OSD.

I undestand your point. I'm torn between having lots of patterns or condensed patterns. Grayscale is obviously very important. I don't know how important a deep ramp (non-stepped) is. Personally, I don't really use it, cool to look at but 5% step is plenty granular for everything I've ever calibrated. Sometimes one "click" is more than 5% anyway. So to make a full screen stepped pattern to get around OSD menus, I'll have to make dual patterns (2) as you surmised. Or, I can do what I originally started to do and make the pattern 4-way : step and deep on top and deep and step on bottom mirrorred and flipped. I like that better than another pattern, however, you don't get as much pattern real estate to view that way. I'll look into it.

re: what are the details on the ramp's tick marks?:

To describe it more accurately than the pattern labelpossibly: everything between adn including where the tick marks are is video levels 16-235. Anything "outside" or beyond the mark, is out of 16-235

HTH,
Scott

-------------------------------
Bob>>Like I said, everything seemed to revolve around the .LAY file giving me
problems, but maybe it has something to do with the way I burned the disc
(UDF vs. DVD-video), OR maybe I simply had a bad disc (it happens). For the
sake of knowing for sure, I will burn another disc the same way I did the
first one and report back to you. If it was the .LAY file or UDF format, we
will still need to research some more, but at least we can eliminate the bad
disc possibility.

Correct DVD format is UDF I'm almost 100% sure. There are some other parameters besides UDF. I don't use Nero so I don't kow what it's looking for. My software gives errors if the lay isn't there now that I think of it. You might try to add a AUDIO_TS empty folder, too for complete compatibility with some players. But in any event, it's good to know the problem, if you have it, other's will, too.

>>Keeping in mind that the disc will be used on a wide variety of projectors,
consideration should be maintained that the control menus could be placed
just about anywhere and be immovable - just my $.02.

Yes, I understand, & agree.

>> I personally consider the reversing deep stepped gray ramps the single most
important pattern in existence (I don't use the non-stepped one either)!
With that one pattern I can check overall gray scale and gamma, check for
passing BTB and WTW, AND adjust both contrast and brightness to within
acceptable levels - QUICKLY. If I had to live with just one pattern, that
would be it, so I personally put a very high priority in having that one
pattern usable under as many conditions (projectors) as possible. Again,
this is just my opinion...others might feel totally different.

No, I agree with all of that.

>> Just a reminder, the second disc I burned worked perfectly in both hardware
players with no timeouts or unusual behavior, so don't be concerned with the
erratic behavior I noted from the first disc. I'll get back to you with the
results from the third disc. I'll dl 4.2b, burn it just like the first disc
and retest.

OK

>> Yes, I think our conversation should be posted in open forum for additional
discussion, but I wanted to email you privately at first and allow you to
decide...You're the boss!! So feel free to copy and/or quote any/all of our
conversations into the thread, and once you do, I'll post there from now on.

Done :)

>>Thanks for getting back to me so quickly! It's shaping up nicely! Keep up the great work! Bob

You are welcome. Experienced other's input welcome, too.

Ok, I just burned a third disc using beta 4.2b, Nero UDF, just like the first disc. NO GOOD! I have two Panny STB players and both of them reported that the disc was not playable. This eliminates the "bad disc" possibility.

I am now burning a 4th disc using the same method, but before burning I deleted the "Beta4-0.LAY" file to see if that is the file causing issues. I'll report back soon.

Ok, 4th disc, same problem, so I assume that it isn't the illegal file. It must be the UDF format. I am now burning a 5th disc using the "DVD-video" format in Nero, but because Beta4-0.LAY is an illegal file name for DVD compliancy, Nero will not allow me to drag it into the window. The disc works fine like this, and I see no reason for having the file there to begin with, as I think it is simply used by GetGray's authoring software and probably isn't needed for the DVD to work properly.

IS UDF an illegal file system for a DVD compliant disc?

Ok, though disc #5 is now properly recognised, I can't get by the intro/disclaimer screen no matter what I do.

So far the only working disc I have is beta 4.2a burned as DVD-video and leaving out the Beta4-0.LAY file. I can get by the intro screen by hitting "top menu", though the normal "menu" button does nothing. I can navigate this disc properly with no issues.

Bob, I don't use Nero, but I took a quick look at it. You aren't trying UDF ROM are you? That's wrong. This isn't a ROM disc. DVD's are UDF, but not ROM. Nero must be calling it DVD Video. Here's how to use Nero to do a DVD properly:

http://www.videohelp.com/nerodvd.htm

Their pic says to leave out the .lay file. I see several places that say to delete it using Nero and a few other packages. I'll see about taking it out of the zip file to prevent any further problems next release.

HTH, Scott

Hey guys: Becasue of the nature of the distribution of the package (via VIDEO_TS foolder), it would be easy for this to turn into a DVD burning How-to. There was another thread (Best 5 minutes....) that got ruined sort of becasue it turned into a ********** howto.

So, going forward, to prevent getting off topic, I've started a separate thread for anyone having trouble or needing help creating a Calibration Disc DVD with their DVD burner and software:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=613686

That thread can be specifically for posting DVD burning how-to questions. I put it in the HTPC forum since that's where the most PC gurus would live. Is that an OK spot Bob?

Thanks! Hope that helps. Scott

Sorry, I didn't mean to go off topic, but after burning literally over 3000 DVDs, this was a first, so I thought it was related to something in the authoring of your disc, and as such on topic. The HTPC forum is the right place for further discussion.

Anyway, back on topic, I can't get by the intro/disclaimer screen in beta 4.2b, so I can't comment about any further navigation issues.

Sorry, I didn't mean to go off topic, but after burning literally over 3000 DVDs, this was a first, so I thought it was related to something in the authoring of your disc, and as such on topic. The HTPC forum is the right place for further discussion.

Anyway, back on topic, I can't get by the intro/disclaimer screen in beta 4.2b, so I can't comment about any further navigation issues.It's no big deal, I didn't mind. I knew the issue would come up sooner or later. Actually figured it would be much sooner. I'm very glad you found the issue and pointed it out so I can leave out the .lay file going forward. That particular thing is very on topic.

But for 4.2b, so much for that "fix" :). Do you have an "enter" button? If you do, try it, but I bet you tried everything. Let me see what I can do with it... 4.2c :)

Thanks Bob!

OK, 4.2c is on it's way up. My upload link is slow (256) so it will take it a few minutes.

4.2c has another try at a disclaimer screen, but I've made it easier to get past. Enter, menu, title menu, etc. ought to do it.

I'm also redoing several patterns to reduce mpeg artifacts. In 4.2c, I've included a slightly different overscan/alignment pattern that is much improved over 4.2a. Still will probably tweak it some more, but this one is a big improvement.

Scott

Do you have an "enter" button? If you do, try it, but I bet you tried everything.

Yup, I tried everything. Nothing got past it. I'll try 4.2c tomorrow and report back.

Bob, I am using Nero 6.6 (haven't installed Ver 7 yet). I used Nero Recode to write the DVD, from Scotts VIDEO_TS folder (I just selected the folder from the Nero "Inport DVD" selection). It worked just fine.

I also posted this to Scott's new thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=613686

Oops - I used my PC :eek: and not my DVD player - that may make a difference.

Just burned 4.2a and used it for basic calibration. For a newb layman like me, it was painless. For anyone needing a Blue Filter quickly, try this: Go to your local Circut City and ask them for a TV setup kit. These come bundled with every TV CC sells. It contains a psuedo calibration disc with patters that look like they come from AVIA, and also contain a Blue Filter. I was told that the stores have hundreds of these in drawers, as they remove them from returns...to them (the store I went to) they just hand them out. Thanks for the work Scott, glad I found this before buying AVIA. One question: What patters can be used for Gamma and Sharpness...if any?

Thanks,

P

4.2d is up. Minor changes. Working on killing off the mpeg artifacts...

Polypro, sorry, I don't have a pattern for gamma or sharpness.

Scott, I keep getting beta 4.2c when I click on the 4.2d link, even when I use a different computer (so it is not cached data).

Oops, sorry about that. Got a rash of Optoma H79 owners ordering AV-RS232's, and I was hurrying to catch up. Forgot to update link, it shoudl be OK now. Scott

Bob: 4.2e is on it's way up. Will be loaded in about 20 minutes...

4.2e) revised C program that converts RGB to YCbCr. Added YUV level clipping to Cb and Cr. Regenerated and reencoded BelleNuit pattern that included a overflow error due to out of range RGB values on upper end of blue ramp. Reflagged BelleNuit as 4:3 instead of 16x9 since that's it's native format. Some players will auto-recognize the flag, others won't. Revised multi-level colorbar pattern to minimize mpeg artifacts.

I was writing this post and lost it, so have to start again
I have recently purchased a sony hs60 projector and the denon 3910 dvd player. To calibrate it I will use the DVE disc. I am new to calibration so I'm confused about a few things.

1. Whilst calibrating, what is it that I will be calibrating, the DVD player OR the Projector?, do I need to calibrate each seperately?, if so, how can you calibrate one without the other, I'm confused.

2. I will be playing both NTSC and Pal Dvd's, so do I need to calibrate for both NTSC and Pal? If I calibrate the system for Pal, and then calibrate for NTSC, will that overwrite all the settings for the Pal calibration. I have both the NTSC and the Pal versions of DVE.

I'm so confused, its stressing me out, if someone could please answer these questions for me, or even point me to a link where these questions can be answered I would really appreciate it.

GetGrey - the page you refer to still says beta 4.2a is ready for download, you mention 4.2e above...should I assume that I can download and try the most current (4.2e or whatever) if I contribute? Or is 4.2a the "public" contributer beta, and 4.2b-e still in
'internal' beta?

Has anyone actually succeeded in seeing the individual white and black bars in the highedt frequency patterns?

All I see is a solid grey, or a solid color in the Belle Nuit pattern, while DVE actually resolves all the patterns up to 6.75 Mhz.

Vern

GetGrey - the page you refer to still says beta 4.2a is ready for download, you mention 4.2e above...should I assume that I can download and try the most current (4.2e or whatever) if I contribute? Or is 4.2a the "public" contributer beta, and 4.2b-e still in
'internal' beta?Try refreshing your browser. The page has 2 links, listed together, one for 4.2a, one for 4.2e. I just checked it from a "neutral" computer that hasn't accessed it before, and the links are there. Yes, everyone who has access to any has access to all, and will continue to do so until it's done. HTH, Scott

Has anyone actually succeeded in seeing the individual white and black bars in the highedt frequency patterns?

All I see is a solid grey, or a solid color in the Belle Nuit pattern, while DVE actually resolves all the patterns up to 6.75 Mhz.

VernVern: Those patterns were contributed and I don't really have any control over them or what they do. I am re-encoding most of the patterns and I am changing critical pattern's color boundaries to occur on 8x8 DCT blocks to minimize mpeg artifacts.

The author of the freq. wasn't sure how they'd behave to test 1:1 pixel mapping which is what their intent was. I don't think they add a lot of value to the disc and I am likely going to remove them. I don't need to know the resolution to calibrate grays and color. A superior disc for testing video quality issues including deinterlacing, and scaling is the HQV test disc. In my opinion, my disc, the HQV disc, and a Rives Audio CD would be an excellent set of discs, each with specific functions, audio (Rives), calibration (mine), and video quality testing (HQV). One usually can't really do much about their resolution, it is what it is. Same goes for deinterlacing performance. Those fall into the category of testing for the sake of knowing. That's good if you are comparing devices, but once you have a device and are calibrating it, they are informational only.

In any event, unless some can explain what one could use the frequencey patterns (that I currently have on the disc) to calibrate, I'm ging to whack them (and might anyway :))

HTH, Scott

Try refreshing your browser. The page has 2 links, listed together, one for 4.2a, one for 4.2e. I just checked it from a "neutral" computer that hasn't accessed it before, and the links are there. Yes, everyone who has access to any has access to all, and will continue to do so until it's done. HTH, Scott

Thanks for the quick reply...I"m talking about this page:

http://www.calibrate.tv/index2.html

ANd the other incarnation:

http://www.calibrate.tv/index.html

Both only list this, with repeated refreshes (and today was the first day I ever accessed either page) say below.

I assume you mean that the download page I'll get if I donate has the updated links...you might want to update this page so it is current as well.

As of 11/28/2005, The calibration disc is currently in Beta 4.2a testing with selected testers. You can view or participate in it's development in the AVS forum at this thread link: http://www.avsforum.com/threadlinkhere. If you are an experienced calibrator feel free to provide input as we complete the development of the disc.

EXISTING BETA TESTERS ONLY: 4.2a is ready for download. If you did not already receive the link and password to the download file, send your real e-mail address to >info05 at calibrate.tv< and I will send the information.

PUBLIC DOWNLOAD is available at this time to contributors (see below). This contribution will be considered your registration fee and you will be added to the update and final disc e-mail list. Updates and final disc (version 1.0) will be made available to contributors at no additional cost. Public beta downloads will be in the form of a zipped VIDEO_TS folder ready to burn to DVD. No support for creating or burning DVD's will be available here, however you can find a wealth of sites that can assist with this simple task if you don't know how.

This disc is a great deal of work and donations to the project are sincerely appreciated. If you believe the disc will be usefull please help by financially supporting the development of this Pro-level disc. Early contributors will be eligible for a final disc for no additional charge. Contributors, please allow up to 24 hours (although it will likely be much shorter) to receive the links to the DVD files. A minimum contribution of $23 via Paypal is required ($20 plus enough to cover paypal charges).


>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Current Beta Level: 4.2a, 11/28/2005
To do list prior to Public version 1.0 release:
Add audio tracks to lipsync pattern
Add audio track to automated grayscale pattern for use with OpticOne/Progressive Labs CA-6X professional colorimeter
Add/change disclaimers, EULA
Add 20/80 and 30/70 gray looping pattern sequences
Edit and incorporate documentation from contributing beta testers
Tweak, verify final patterns
Possibly eliminate frequencey paterns
Possibly eliminate the "Quick Sequence" selection
Update website with current menus and patterns

Can't anyone hear me or am I invisible

OK, since I didn't get a response I'm going to try posting again

I was writing this post and lost it, so have to start again
I have recently purchased a sony hs60 projector and the denon 3910 dvd player. To calibrate it I will use the DVE disc. I am new to calibration so I'm confused about a few things.

1. Whilst calibrating, what is it that I will be calibrating, the DVD player OR the Projector?, do I need to calibrate each seperately?, if so, how can you calibrate one without the other, I'm confused.

2. I will be playing both NTSC and Pal Dvd's, so do I need to calibrate for both NTSC and Pal? If I calibrate the system for Pal, and then calibrate for NTSC, will that overwrite all the settings for the Pal calibration. I have both the NTSC and the Pal versions of DVE.

I'm so confused, its stressing me out, if someone could please answer these questions for me, or even point me to a link where these questions can be answered I would really appreciate it.

The frequency patterns are not correct because Scott was using a built-in low-pass filter on his MPEG-2 encoder. A re-encode without the filter should fix them.

Ron

<snip>Both only list this, with repeated refreshes (and today was the first day I ever accessed either page) say below. I assume you mean that the download page I'll get if I donate has the updated links...you might want to update this page so it is current as well.

Thanks, I agree and it is done. Made it more generic for now, I wasn't paying attention to that file, sorry. I also change the index2 to point where it's supposed to. User caches should clear by now.

[edit - text removed for compliance]

HTH

funguy, no, you are not invisible - you are merely off topic. Your questions are of a much more general nature and should be posted in a separate thread, as this thread is specifically about GetGray's new calibration disc and its evolution and the people involved in it are focusing their time and energy on the project at hand. I hope I'm not coming off as being rude - I'm just trying to explain it to you as best I can.

Bob, thanks, beat me too it :)
The frequency patterns are not correct because Scott was using a built-in low-pass filter on his MPEG-2 encoder. A re-encode without the filter should fix them.RonI'm a gittin thar. Too many irons in far. :)

I'm redoing all of them without any filtering :). Whacking them one at a time.

But Ron, what's you opinion on the usage of said patterns? Nothing one can really adjust when it comes to resolution, except maybe in the case of a external scaler with multiple output choices, dunno.

If the "informational" patterns come up at the end, under misc., they hurt nothing and offer a self-satisfying view of what your display is doing.... I say keep them

:cool:

Ditto.

Vern

So I purchased this disc yesterday, downloaded, burned and runs just great.

Problem is, I have since realized that it is really targeted at those much more experienced than I am w/calibration concepts and practices.

What I (and the disc) lack, is some step-by-step help...I've done some web searching but haven't really found anything too useful yet.

Is there an existing set of info that would give me some guidance in using the resources on this disc?

Is anyone willing to post a little "how to" for the most significant sub-set (black level and ?) of adjustments I can do w/this disc?

Should I really have gotten the Avia (which I believe comes w/the "how to" built-in/included)?

My TV is the new 65" HP 1080p DLP.

Thanks.

Ditto.

Vern
OK, I'll consider keeping them if someone can give me a short, simple (As possible) write up on what one would use these for. I'm the one who will get the questions. I don't believe they fit the spirit of the disc. What would be nice is a gamma test pattern, becasue that *is* something you can adjust, but I don't know how to make one. My instruments tell me the gamma when I run a grayscale.

Its not that I don't appreciate having the freq. patterns, I do, but if they don't do something specific, explainable, and useful (without a oscope)... they are on the chopping block...

FYI, Here's the description from the pattern author (drmpeg): They are "frequency burst patterns".

In order of presentation on beta 4.x:
#1
alternating white/black pixels with the first
bar 4 black/ 4 white pixels, second bar 3 black/3 white,
third bar 2 black/ 2 white and the last bar 1 black/ 1 white.
In other words, they are 1.6875 MHz, 2.25 MHz, 3.375
and 6.75 MHz resolution "patches". I believe the 6.75 MHz
"patch" can be used for 1:1 pixel testing, but I'm not 100%
sure.

#2
sine waves of frequency (in this arrangement)
0.5 MHz, 1.0 MHz, 1.5 MHz, 2.0 MHz
2.5 MHz, 2.75 MHz, 3.0 MHz, 3.25 MHz,
3.5 MHZ, 3.75 MHz, 4.0 MHz, 4.2 MHz
4.4 MHz, 5.0 MHz, 5.5 MHz, 6.0 MHz
The higher frequency sine waves have lot's of sampling
phase error, which is unavoidable. On Avia Pro, they
use frequencies they are integer divisors of 13.5 MHz
to avoid the problem. I think they are called "Nyquist"
bursts..."

S

Is anyone willing to post a little "how to" for the most significant sub-set (black level and ?) of adjustments I can do w/this disc? I haven't read it but this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=2852401&&#post2852401

looks to be along the lines of something to get you going.

When looking for instructions, functionally speaking my disc is closer to DVE that Avia becasue it has "blacker than black" in it's patterns, and thus has similar gray ramps. They are using DVE in that thread and the guy posted screenshots I think FWIW. I know DVE has some instructions of sorts on their website, look under the DVHS tape version section. Their website is more difficult to find stuff on than their DVD :), but it's there.

OK, I'll consider keeping them if someone can give me a short, simple (As possible) write up on what one would use these for. I'm the one who will get the questions. I don't believe they fit the spirit of the disc. What would be nice is a gamma test pattern, becasue that *is* something you can adjust, but I don't know how to make one. My instruments tell me the gamma when I run a grayscale.

Its not that I don't appreciate having the freq. patterns, I do, but if they don't do something specific, explainable, and useful (without a oscope)... they are on the chopping block...

FYI, Here's the description from the pattern author (drmpeg): They are "frequency burst patterns".

In order of presentation on beta 4.x:
#1
alternating white/black pixels with the first
bar 4 black/ 4 white pixels, second bar 3 black/3 white,
third bar 2 black/ 2 white and the last bar 1 black/ 1 white.
In other words, they are 1.6875 MHz, 2.25 MHz, 3.375
and 6.75 MHz resolution "patches". I believe the 6.75 MHz
"patch" can be used for 1:1 pixel testing, but I'm not 100%
sure.

#2
sine waves of frequency (in this arrangement)
0.5 MHz, 1.0 MHz, 1.5 MHz, 2.0 MHz
2.5 MHz, 2.75 MHz, 3.0 MHz, 3.25 MHz,
3.5 MHZ, 3.75 MHz, 4.0 MHz, 4.2 MHz
4.4 MHz, 5.0 MHz, 5.5 MHz, 6.0 MHz
The higher frequency sine waves have lot's of sampling
phase error, which is unavoidable. On Avia Pro, they
use frequencies they are integer divisors of 13.5 MHz
to avoid the problem. I think they are called "Nyquist"
bursts..."

S
They were patterns that I had already created, so I just sent them off to you. If you'd like to delete them from the disk, that's cool with me.

The sine wave bursts were created to validate MATLAB simulations of the 720 to 544 polyphase horizontal filter in the new MPEG-2 encoder for the DCT-6412 Phase 3 cable box. The cable specification requires the video passband to be flat to 3.75 MHz. Here's the measured results of different tap sets.

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/5636/bursttap15ri.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/3091/bursttap22qn.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/898/bursttap35vt.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Ron

Thanks Ron, that's interesting stuff. I didn't think you'd care one way or the other if the frequencey patterns were on the caldisc. Your use of the patterns sort of reinforces what I was saying though, for a normal calibrator, not looking with scopes and MATLAB, the patterns are just cool to look at, but provide limited information from just viewing.

CHeers, Scott

I too would like to request a "how to use it for dummies" tutorial. I recognize that this thread is designed to help the development of the disc, but, there are obviously a lot of people who are not technically competent in this field but can follow instructions and want to benefit from the knowledge and effort that has been put forth by those who are competent. From a standpoint of a non techie, this seems to have the potential to be the best disc available anywhere. Some of you are certainly capable of putting together a useful and user friendly set of instructions that start right after "turn the projector on". Having followed this forum for some time now, I know that a lot of people simply like the opportunity to help and those that don't are in the minority.

I haven't read it but this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=2852401&&#post2852401

looks to be along the lines of something to get you going.

When looking for instructions, functionally speaking my disc is closer to DVE that Avia becasue it has "blacker than black" in it's patterns, and thus has similar gray ramps. They are using DVE in that thread and the guy posted screenshots I think FWIW. I know DVE has some instructions of sorts on their website, look under the DVHS tape version section. Their website is more difficult to find stuff on than their DVD :), but it's there.

THanks, Scott. That does look like it could be a useful thread...I'll also go back to the DVE site and search again...thanks for the specific pointer to the DVHS tape section.

It actually looks like someone could take the thread Scott posted above and do some copy/edits w/references to Scott's DVD and have a good set of how to's w/out too much work. <hint, hint> :D (Or should I say <beg, beg>). In the meantime I'll continue on in self-help mode. :)

Aha...not sure why it didn't turn up on my last google, but this page has some how-to info...has info on AVIA and DVE discs. A start...

http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/Video-calibration.html

Second Aha! DVE how-to PDF here:

http://www.videoessentials.com/Manuals.php

Since you ask, this is what I meant:
http://www.videoessentials.com/D_Theater_signals.php
also short snippet:
http://www.videoessentials.com/resources_DeviceCalibration.php

Since you ask, this is what I meant:
http://www.videoessentials.com/D_Theater_signals.php
also short snippet:
http://www.videoessentials.com/resources_DeviceCalibration.php

Much gracias!

GetGray,

I recently downloaded and burned the 4.2e file. However, the intro screen says Beta 4.2b. Is this just a typo on the intro screen, or might I have done something wrong? Thanks!

P.S. I used Nero Express 5.5.10.68 which seems to work fine.

GetGray - Are you monitoring the caldisc05@calibrate.tv email address?

GetGray,

I recently downloaded and burned the 4.2e file. However, the intro screen says Beta 4.2b. Is this just a typo on the intro screen, or might I have done something wrong? Thanks!

P.S. I used Nero Express 5.5.10.68 which seems to work fine.It is a type on teh opening screen. If you go the right zip file, then you are good. My apologies for not paying better attention to those little things, I've concentrated on the patterns without the corresponding main window update for beta 4. Hope to get beta 5 out soon then wrap it up with the real thing ver 1.0.

GetGray - Are you monitoring the caldisc05@calibrate.tv email address?I am, but I've been out of town since yesterday afternoon, just getting back. I have a few pending, I'll get beta accounts setup for them and get them out first thing tomorrow morning.

Sailor Bill & Danabw -- I am working on a brief set of instructions for Scott's disk. They will (?) be included in the Version 1 release (I hope). I have made them available only to Scott and a few others, for editing purposes. Since the details of the GetGray Calibration disc are still in flux, these have not been available in general, since its a "work in progress".

These instructions are not all that detailed but, along with the AVIA &/or DVE information, should provide enough instruction to provide a some guidance as to how to use the disc.

All:

Beta 4.3 is avail for download on the site (www.calibrate.tv). The original 4.2 was really meant to test navigation. Now, 4.3 represents wrapping up and finishing polishing all video patterns including those done through the 4.2x versions. All patterns have now been re-encoded with no mpeg filtering, no offset, etc. All color-critical images have been redesigned so color boundaries fall on 8x8 blocks. All of this was to minimize mpeg artifacts. This re-encode should have cleared up any issues with the freq. patterns, maybe Vern and/or Ron can have a look for us if they have time. I've re-encoded as the pattern author (drmpeg) advised. I also flagged then as 4:3 native DVD aspect to ensure no artifacts were introduced from stretching them to 16:9. Some player don't auto-obey the 4:3/16:9 flag, some do. It might not make any difference, I haven't tested it yet.

There is still no sound, do not adjust your set ;).

Whats left that's planned for 1.0 (non beta):

- add sound track to auto-gray sequence
- add sound track to lip-sync pattern and test. If I have any trouble syncing the audio, I'll remove the pattern, but I'm not expecting that to happen.
- finalize menus, remove or not the freq. patterns.
- add a 30-80, and possibly a 20-80 "rocking" gray window pattern sequence

Finally, add my edits to Claus's very well done "manual" and hopefully persuade Claus to edit it and help make it look as good as before I "worked on it" :). A couple iterations between us and that will be done.

Thanks for everyone's support and patience. Sorry it's taking much longer than originally expected.

Let me know if anyone sees any new issues on Beta 4.3.

Best, Scott

The 4.3 upload failed last night, it is there now.

Claus,
Thanks for the update and the effort. If you understand all this, it probably is easy but the effort involved in building a theater , choosing the right equipment, with value received in mind, and actually getting hooked up and set up, is mind boggling to say the least! Building my Dyna kits 42 years ago was a no brainer by comparison.

Sailor Bill & Danabw -- I am working on a brief set of instructions for Scott's disk. They will (?) be included in the Version 1 release (I hope). I have made them available only to Scott and a few others, for editing purposes. Since the details of the GetGray Calibration disc are still in flux, these have not been available in general, since its a "work in progress".

These instructions are not all that detailed but, along with the AVIA &/or DVE information, should provide enough instruction to provide a some guidance as to how to use the disc.

Awesome...thanks so much for doing that.

Please take a gold star out of petty cash... :D

Scott, I got 4.3 and tried it. It all seems to work as advertised. The frequency burst patterns now look right, too (sharp, clean and all the lines are visible). The re-encoding did it's job.

My WinDVD, Ver. 5, (on my laptop) reacted to the 4:3/16:9 flags correctly. I'm happy to do the final Instruction clean up once the calibration details get finished.

Sailor Bill -- I built my Dyna Kits (they had excellent instructions) about 42 years (+/- a couple) ago, too. A friend of mine is still using the stereo amp, the tuner and pre-amp are in storage (along with a pair of Heathkit Willamson Mono amps - using 6L6's & humongous transformers - along with my first University 312 corner loaded speaker).

It all looks good, including the test patterns. Please don't remove anything.

Vern

OK, but what can the freq patterns be used for?

How about adjusting focus?

:cool:

Hmmm, I'll try it but I think that might be the last pattern I'd use for that. It being kinda fuzzy by design to begin with.

Ever since this question first came up, I've been thinking about their usefulness.

In the past, frequency bursts were used, on CRT sets, to check the frequency response of the video chain and the display - horizontal resolution. However, since most of our displays, sources, cables, etc., should be good for at least 8MHz square waves (200 MHz bandwidth), these patterns (6.75 MHz max.) should not be that useful.

It doesn't hurt to leave them in, Vern Likes them ;). They are in the same category as the Belle-Nuit pattern (Vertical Resolution) and are so placed (a Horizontal Resolution test). I think I'll add that statement in the instructions (if Scott agrees to leave them in). The re-encoding that Scott did for Beta 4.3 fixed the blurriness problem.

Freq sweeps are great for setting peaking/sharpness controls.

You’re right on that one, but doesn't that really require a scope (to do it properly)? Also, it's handier for CRT sets, not DLP/LCD PJs, isn’t it?

I would think that sharpness can be set easier with the Zone plate tests on DVE & AVIA, although the bursts can certainly be used for that (the images should be sharp and clear with no blurring due to ringing. Peaking is more of a CRT adjustment, from what little I know about it.

If we can find one thing that they can be used to adjust, I'll leave them. If we can't find anything, I don't know. The theme of the disc is "only what's needed to calibrate" (without a scope), bare bones simple. If the freq patterns are helpful for sharpeness then that's good for me. I'll try to confirm, but if anyone else can, that would be great. Thanks for pointing out that possibility Chris.

I've been watching this thread for a little bit now and was wandering if just for s!!% and giggles if you could throw in a couple of old school eggs hidden in the menus on the dvd. I know that it would add little value to the intent of the dvd itself but it would be nice/cool to see say a Haley Barry picture from the movie Swordfish... you know wich one :D or maybe the famous Darla from finding nemo... or if your so inclined a picture of your mug :eek: . Whatever your heart desires :rolleyes: ... a favorite song?

All kidding aside Im really looking forward to tring your finished labor of love. Wish i could have contributed to the efforts, but alas I live in the dark ages yet still , and do not have a dvd burner nor a dvd player that is capable of playing burned dvds other than retail. (toshiba 2008 first gen.) I do however feel that christmas will be very good to me this year so will see.

note ..... If it hasn't been said enough already I will say it again -- thank you for yours and the contributors efforts. I give you 5 gold stars,, one turkey dinner, two turtle doves and and and well you get the point.

Merry Christmas!!!



Btw .... if you have a fedex person deliver to your house and they look like might be on the verge of a nervous breakdown for god's sake give the poor soul a cookie .... it just might be me :D

Well, here you go then.

They are very useful for revealing improper deinterlacing and scaling, which can degrade image quality. These are two things I would always check for before calibrating a projector. In my mind, calibration means more than just setting the 4 basic levels, gamma, and grey scale, it also means checking the end to end system for any issues that will compromise the image quality and correcting them.

Vern

Hi, I am a long time lurker and first time poster :) I just bought a Sony KDS-R50XBR1, I love this TV. Anyway, I have been following this thread since the beginning and I have a few questions.

1. Would this calibration disc be good to use on this TV or should I buy DVE or Avia? I am assuming it would be good to use, but I wanna make sure before I purchase the disc.

2. Assuming this disc would work good with my TV, should I wait for the final or go ahead and get the beta one that is out now?

Any help would be appreciated! :D Keep up the great work Getgray!

I would recommend waiting for the final version, since it should be finished shortly (Scott ? - it's almost done). This disc will be very good to use ;).

However, it still would be a good idea to get either AVIA or DVE, or both :cool:. Getting one or both gives you a good set of background information on Display Calibration (as does a lot of information in the AVS Calibration threads). I prefer AVIA, because it's easier to use without a lot of reading and DVD navigation (the instructions are on the AVIA DVD and preceed each test screen). I generally use AVIA to start with and use DVE as a double-check (plus I like the introduction on DVE).

That will get you close. You can then use the GetGray disc to do the final adjustments :D.

PS -- I have all 3 of Joe Kane's calibration discs (1 LD and 2 DVDs) plus AVIA and the Get Gray Beta's. For the cost of your Sony KDS-R50XBR1, the cost of AVIA, DVE and the GetGray disc will be small 'taters :D. You might also want to get the HQV disc (see the sticky: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=588535), if it's still available (unless you don't want to see the warts in your system - it's a set of torture test patterns and nothing comes out perfect :eek: ).

I'm a new contributor to this project and have only used the DVD on my Hitachi HDPJ52 projector, but I find the DVD much easier to navigate than my Avia and gives the same results as my (borrowed) Sencore calibration gear. So far, so good.

One question, or suggestion. Unless I'm mistaken, there are only windowed gray screens. With my Hitachi, I prefer to calibrate with full field gray screens instead of windowed screens. With the dynamic iris off, it doesn't matter, but with dynamic iris on I get flakey results when using windowed gray screens. My eyes tell me the full field results are better, but I might be all wet. Have you considered using full field gray screens instead of windowed?

Sorry if this question has come up earlier, but I didn't see it on a quick scan of the thread.

CT_Wiebe:

Thanks for the advice! I thought about getting DVE since I read that AVIA had some patterns that are off. Also, DVE comes with the blue, red and green filters. Speaking of which are those filters that come with DVE any good, or should I get some different filters? I read a thread where someone mentioned some kodak filters? I already have the THX blue filter glasses, they are cheesy but hey they get the job done :D

As for the HQV disc, with me being a perfectionist I am not so sure I want all the flaws exposed, lol :D Sometimes ignorance is bliss!!!! With me being a perfectionist I cannot believe I just said that. Haha Usually I want to know all the flaws so I can fix them, but in this case I think I would drive myself crazy. :D

Hi guys, quick bulk answer:

Claus, yes, hoping to wrap up soon. Have some time over the holidays to wrap it up.

Citation4444, yes I considered full screen window patterns but every single calibrator I know of have ever spoken to uses window patterns. I don't know if full-screen provide any advantage though. Somewhere way back in the thread there is a discussion of several disadvantages in using full screen however. I'll leave finding those as an excercise to those interested :). As for a DI, I think any static pattern is gonna be problematic somewhere. One might need different sets of patterns each set being calibrated for a certain APL when combined with the gray window, dunno. I don't want to go there.

Itd01: I prefer my disc :) of course ;). See previous guys research for the how to's info. And, I like the THX glasses just fine. I don't see any difference between those and th e filters that come with Avia. And the DVE filters are too dark IMO. Or maybe it's the other way around, I forget :)

Cheers, Scott.

Great! thanks GetGray. I am going to order your disc today so I can start calibrating my display. The picture looks awesome now, but I am sure it can look better :D I already started looking around at other threads on how to read and use the patterns. The best thing for me to do at this point is actually get the disc, use it and learn as I go along.

Itd01 -- AVIA also comes with all 3 filters. DVE has them on one cardboard sheet, AVIA has separate filter strips. Filter you're refering to was mentioned in this thread: "Deep Blue Tricolor 47B filter available from photographic supply companies (part #LEB47B3)" - quoted from the GetGray Caldisc Instructions.

Scott, I think you right in that the DVE filters are slightly darker than the AVIA ones (but that may be an optical illusion, due to the way they're packaged).

Citation4444 -- As I understand it, the problem with the full field windows are that the APL (average picture level) changes drastically with each window (which your DI is responding to). This can result in incorrect gray scale settings (as a result of room reflections and signal processing problems ?) for reasons that I don't completely understand. You should be calibrating with the DI off anyway.

Ok I have a couple more questions and if this is getting off topic I am sorry :(

Is the Deep Blue Tricolor (#LEB47B3) filter better than the ones that come with AVIA or DVE?

I see this is just a blue filter, won't I need to get a Red and Green filter as well?

If the filters that come with DVE are darker, does that mean it will throw the patterns off?, or does it even matter what quality or type of filters I use?

One final question, since I am hooking up my dvd player with component, instead of the filters isn't better to just unplug say the red and green component from the back of the dvd player when I want to balance the blue's and vice versa?

Sorry about all the questions, and if this is going off topic, just point me in the right direction and I will be more than happy to go research it. I did a quick search on AVS already and I did not find out all the answers to my questions. Thanks again for any help! :)

Pardon me if I'm missing something, but aren't the overscan percentage markers way off on the Alignment/Overscan pattern? They numbers seem more the over two times higher than they should be..?
the 5% marker is less than where DVE and Avia put their 2.5% lines
the 10% marker line corresponds to around 4% on the Avia and DVE discs..etc

Pardon me if I'm missing something, but aren't the overscan percentage markers way off on the Alignment/Overscan pattern? They numbers seem more the over two times higher than they should be..?
the 5% marker is less than where DVE and Avia put their 2.5% lines
the 10% marker line corresponds to around 4% on the Avia and DVE discs..etc Could be. I'll check them and see. Thanks in advance for for noticing if they are (or not).

One final question, since I am hooking up my dvd player with component, instead of the filters isn't better to just unplug say the red and green component from the back of the dvd player when I want to balance the blue's and vice versa?

Waiting on this one... (tapping foot)

Waiting on this one... (tapping foot)
Not really. While the component cables are typically "labelled" with red, green and blue colors, they actually carry different data (specifically, differential data). For instance, Green is not actually green, it is instead, luma (Y') data. Cr and Cb are teh chrominance differential channels. While each channel does tend to be dominated by a particular primary, it is not RGB data that is being carried. As a result, you would introduce error into the methodology if you went this route.

Later,
Bill

Thanks Bill! Well that pretty much destroy's that theroy I had, haha :D

So, now back to the questions I had about the filters,

Is the Deep Blue Tricolor (#LEB47B3) filter better than the ones that come with AVIA or DVE?

I see this is just a blue filter, won't I need to get a Red and Green filter as well?

If the filters that come with DVE are darker, does that mean it will throw the patterns off?, or does it even matter what quality or type of filters I use?

Thanks for any help!

PS: I just received GetGray's disc and I haven't had the chance to actually use it, but tonight I will! :D I will report my thoughts on it later after I use it.

I just knew that it wasn't going to be that easy.:( Just like life; no pain, no gain!;)

OK, back to the 'books'. Just received SP2. Gots lotsa bonin' up to do.

Still waiting for an update on the STVPro 'rumor'. After getting the STV and now SP2, I'm not really in the mood to hear that I jumped when I should have flinched.

BTW, ya'll are absolutely GREAT!

Still waiting for an update on the STVPro 'rumor'. After getting the STV and now SP2, I'm not really in the mood to hear that I jumped when I should have flinched.
Even if it is true, remember that the STV was "debuted" at CES last year, but did not ship until August(?). I think you may have some time, even if it does turn out to be true.

Later,
Bill

Itd01 -- The blue filter is the only one used to set Color (Saturation) and Tint (Hue). The Red & Green filters are used to check the amount of Red & Green push in the color decoder (used with the color ramps, or equivalent). Yes, the 47B (deep blue tricolor) filter is more accurate and more durable. The plastic filter material used for the DVE, AVIA and THX glasses tend to age, and lose accuracy over (a long) time.

I haven't noticed that much, if any, difference (in the Color/Tint adjustments) between AVIA & DVE. I normally (pre GetGray disc) used AVIA to set these and then double-checked with DVE. I did not have to make any changes. The pattern used by Scott, for this purpose, seems to be much easier to use :cool:.

remcoy -- I rechecked the overscan pattern on both my laptop (1440 x 900 display) and my desktop (1280 x 1024 display). In both cases, the pattern that Scott has was spot on. My DVE & AVIA are packed up right now, so I can't check them, but I seem to remember that they were both incorrect on the same 2 computers.

Hi guys. Been lurking here following your progress. Looks like you've got a great project going. I sent the bucks in yesterday for the beta file, so as soon as I get the links, I'll burn it to a DVD and give you my impressions vs. Avia Pro. Kudos to all involved with the project.

Hopefully this disc will help with some of my Calibration woes.... I sent in my donation to what I consider a more than worthy cause.

It feels good to be apart of something.... people will be purchasing this product commercially in the next year or so and I'll be stopping them saying, "hey you know I helped with the beta testing of this".... they probably wont believe me though. :p

Just wanted to say this has come a long way and looks great guys. This is the first time I've poked my head in here since the project was back at page 2 and there's been some amazing progress (spent the last hour reading the whole thread :) ). Purchasing a new tv next week so looking forward to giving this a go. Great work GetGray and the rest of you that contributed, and Merry Christmas to all!

Thanks CT_Wiebe!! I appreciate the response.

Anyway, I just tried out GetGray's disc last night. It is really nice. Since I am a semi-newbie on exactly what to look for when using some of the more advanced patterns, I will comment on the functionality of the disc. I like how the menu's are setup, and there does not seem to be any errors accessing anything. The basic patterns all look and work great. The disclaimer at the beginning is a nice touch, should get the point across. I did not get a chance to play with the older beta's, but from what I can tell this project has definitely come a long way, great job GetGray!

Pardon me if I'm missing something, but aren't the overscan percentage markers way off on the Alignment/Overscan pattern? They numbers seem more the over two times higher than they should be..?
the 5% marker is less than where DVE and Avia put their 2.5% lines
the 10% marker line corresponds to around 4% on the Avia and DVE discs..etc
They look incorrect to me too. The 5% percent lines are 10 pixels from the top and bottom edges and 15 pixels from the left and right edges.

10/480 and 15/720 = 2.0833%

Ron

Thanks for the compliments guys. I hope to do some wrapping up now, I've got some holiday time away from my real job.

And thanks Ron and Claus for checking the overscan patterns.

Happy Holidays, Scott

hey Gray I sent you another donation.... I wanna be first in line for a How-To Guide for dummies.... involving the basic adjustments of your disc. I could really use it.

Hi guys, just an FYI for those with yahoo mail addresses... Several folks early in the project had trouble getting mail from me. I actually run the mailserver and I checked the logs and saw where yahoo's servers accepted the mail, so their server implied it was happy with it, but their users never got the messages. So if you are on yahoo, and you don't hear back from me within 24 hrs (I usually catch up with contributors in the evenings so usually much sooner than 24hrs), send me another e-mail and let me know, or send me an alternate email address. "real" email addresses are safe with me, I run spam filtering services (another hobby that turned into a job :)) so my PC won't be getting any viruses to let your addresses into the wild.

Best, Scott

I had the wrong layer activvated when I made the overscan image. I had originally done it on a pixel basis but due to the 720x480 going to 16x9 on the display I aborted the per pixel markings. Then blindly labelled the wrong pattern layer. All fixed up now. Surely no one using this disc would ever need to see 10% or 15% overscan lines, but I put them there anyway. I did add some lines for 1,2,3,4% although it's impossible to get them perfect since they don't fall out on even pixels.

Thanks for the catch on the error.

reduced jpeg of pattern:
http://www.calibrate.tv/patterns/Overscan.jpg

I'll try to think of some non-copyright violating egg to stick in the DVD just for fun. Only we will know about it :)

Hi guys, just an FYI for those with yahoo mail addresses... Several folks early in the project had trouble getting mail from me.

I don't have a Yahoo address, but I haven't had a reply. Just sent you another email, so hopefully you got it.

Sorry Mike, check your PM. If anyone finds they haven't heard back from me in 24hrs, send a Private message here. No need to tell me you sent one in the thread, I'll see it if you send it.

Thanks. Got your e-mail as well. I want to try it on a calibration I'm doing this afternoon for a friend. ;)

hey Gray I sent you another donation.... I wanna be first in line for a How-To Guide for dummies.... involving the basic adjustments of your disc. I could really use it.

Ditto...I'm one that will need this feature as well, and was very glad to hear that something along these lines will be provided.

Scott....will you be putting this on the disc in a .doc or .txt file, or integrating it into the onscreen menus (I didn't expect that level of integration, BTW).

Really looking forward to the final disc!

DEpends on what docs I put there. The one I'm working on with Claus will ultimately be a .doc and a .pdf pair. I have another one I'm hoping to be able to add to the disc but it will be pdf only if I can. It's a more advanced document on calibrating in general. Don't know if that one will work out or not. The disc will continue to be bare-bones, no onscreen help.

Because of requests from tattootearz and others, I got permission, from Scott, to put the draft of the instructions on-line. This is for BETA 4.3 and is a Draft copy. It will change in the final release.

Because of the size restrictions on AVS forum, I've had to split the PDF file into 2 parts.

Here is Part 1, pages 1-4.

Here is the BETA 4.3 Draft copy Instructions, Part 2, pages 5-7.

Nice work, Claus. :)

Just burned the disk and it looks great! I particularly like the brightness and contrast patterns.

Thank you, thank you.

P

Here is the BETA 4.3 Draft copy Instructions, Part 2, pages 5-7.


Thank you Scott and Claus!!!


Oops..I'm getting a download error...clicking and selecting save or open didn't work, right-click and save target as did work.

Hi GetGray,

will you disc be both NTSC and PAL? Or in different words: is it of any use for my PAL equipment?

Thanks,

RobieZ

Thank You for manuals! Can't wait for the final!

RobieZ:
GetGray said that at first the disc is going to be NTSC. He said he might work on a PAL version after he finishes the NTSC one. Hope this helps!

Hi guys:

I'm waiting on Santa and killing some time so I went through my final pattern cleanups (I hope). 4.3a is ready for download. Good news and bad for Bob ;):

Changes:

4.3a) Updated intro screen with version change
gray ramps modified to 8x8 pixel boundaries on color changes
Gray ramps split into 2 patterns, reversed step, and reversed deep.
Color ramps modified to 8x8 boundaries with non-displaying primary color levels set to 16 (same levels as 4.3)
Alignment/overscan pattern corrected to reflect correct boundaries for 5,10,15%.
Added boundaries for 1,2,3,4%. Modified chevron colors.
Corrected navigation error on auto-gray patterns, 4.3 skipped 100%

(Now the bad news) Here's my plans to wrapup.

Quick sequence option - gets the axe. It is redundant, and the "regular" menu options allow more flexibility, while not adding significant issue to anyone wanting to run that particular sequence as teh QS gives. I've already had email questions about it, why is it there, is it different, etc. So Bob, as promised, you will have one with the QS. 4.3a is it. Next release should be missing it.

Adding:
10% step manual Gray windows (to replace what's being eliminated in the quick sequence), and I'll wrap up the 10% step pattern with a 75% to "fit" Accucal in particular.

The rocker patterns. Either 1 or 2. Looping 30-80% and maybe 20-80%. Under gray patterns.

Sound is still getting pushed to the bottom, but coming for lipsync and the auto gray sequence beeps.

re: PAL. Most of the tools allow me to choose PAL options, but I'm afraid I don't know much about PAL, and unfortunately I have no way to test it. The most tedious part is resizing all the patterns to fit PAL. All of the animated stuff is made literally frame by frame by hand. So it is time consuming to change them to PAL resolution. One set of tools I have that does not support PAL is the RGB to YCbCr conversion software. I'll have to study on the color issues, whether or not Rec601 applies in PAL land, not sure, I didn't think it did. Anyway it's not trivial to do it, but I plan to try. I wont' take it on until the NTSC version is all done.

Merry Christmas,
Scott

I'm also interested in a PAL version, whenever you have the time for it. (as do many other people)

As for testing it, you can count with "our" help. :)

Hi guys:

Menu layout and patterns for Beta 5.0 are on the website, see link at bottom of main page.
http://www.calibrate.tv

Nothing functional has changed if you have Beta 4.3a. This is a menu and navigation update finalizing layout. 5.0 is not available for download yet.

Thanks,
Scott

I was out of touch since Saturday morning - travel to LA & visiting with relatives. Just got the temporary network hooked up at Mother's so I'm back on the air. Got the latest downloads and will be updating the Instructions with the Beta 5 info, so I'll be ready for the final push to the Version 1 release. Since there are no large differences, in the words, between 4.3 and 5.0, I will not provide an updated copy on-line (only the pictures were changed "to protect the innocent" :eek: ).

I took another look at the Beta 5.0 stuff and with the deletion of the "Quick Sequence", the organization of the Beta 5.0 and my "Instructions" didn't seem to match anymore. I re-wrote the instructions to a Draft 8 (to match your Beta 5.0), and added some more of your pictures to illustrate the comments.

Scott, I sent a copy of the Draft 8 PDF file to you at your "calibrate.tv" address so you can post it there, if you wish. Hopefully, it will match the final, Version 1, release pretty closely (pending any additional inputs & changes that you want incorporated).

Thanks SO much, Claus. Much appreciated by us "calibration newbies." :D

That is awesome Claus, Your other guide for the 4.3 beta was nice, it helped me out on a few things I was not sure of. I cannot wait to see new one! Good job!

At first: Thanks for the good Work!

I have a Issue with the Magenta- 100% Pattern also on 5.0. There flicker the next Pattern Yellow when I have choose Magenta. I can only pause the Pattern to stop this. I use the Mediaportal- Software DVD- Player.

Can anybody confirm that with his Stuff ore have a solution for that?

Regards Damdy

I'll check the chapter boundary. The pattern is actually a few second pattern that's looping. If I have the chapter point off by one frame it will cause that behavior. But everone would see it if that's the case. I'll check it this AM and report back.

Thanks, Scott

I've only experimented with the disc briefly on my Sony direct view CRT in my bedroom and I also notice a flicker on some patterns - most notably the overscan pattern, but to a certain extent the primary window patterns as well. If I pause the disc, all is well. I suspected this had something to do with the looping of the chapter.

I love the disc. Great work.

Thanks,
Mark

Scott, I was able to verify Damdy's observation on the 100% Magenta window, the very last frame shows Yellow (it was not that way on 4.3) -- it looks like the boundary is off. This was on my laptop computer, with both WinDVD and the Nero Showtime player.

NOTE: I looked at the frames with my editor software, and the 100% Yellow window starts at frame 0:00:52:00 (frame 0:00:51:29 is 100% Magenta). It looks like each window transition is on 2 second boundaries, so I'm not sure what is off. The 100% Magenta window starts at 0:00:50:00 as expected. It looks like the loop-back may be off by one frame (at 0:00:52:00 instead of 0:0051:29).

Mark Z. -- I saw the same flicker using a cheap Toshiba DVD player (interlaced output) into an equally cheap Sharp CRT TV set (I did not have a chance to try the progressive scan output). Since this test disc is designed for fixed pixel displays and not CRT's this may be an artifact that could show up on interlaced analog displays, only. It's rock solid on my computer (I haven't had a chance to try it on mother's Plasma display).

Mark Z. -- I saw the same flicker using a cheap Toshiba DVD player (interlaced output) into an equally cheap Sharp CRT TV set (I did not have a chance to try the progressive scan output). Since this test disc is designed for fixed pixel displays and not CRT's this may be an artifact that could show up on interlaced analog displays, only. It's rock solid on my computer (I haven't had a chance to try it on mother's Plasma display).

Claus,

I'll check it again if my wife can break herself away from the Tivo :D I am also fairly certain I saw the artifact you mentioned in the magenta window.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the test patterns on the disc (gray fields/windows, primaries, etc) should be useful on all types of displays. Is there something about the way the DVD is designed that would prevent it from being used successfully on CRT based displays?

Thanks,
Mark

Mark, I believe Scott answered this elsewhere in this thread (on one of the earlier pages). The bottom line is that CRT displays are analog devices and this disc was designed specifically to work with digital displays (like DLP and LCD projectors).

There are characteristics inherent to CRT (and other analog type displays) that may show up as artifacts which do not appear on digital displays (and Scott has not looked at these kinds of problems at all). If your CRT display is capable of displaying line-doubled (progressive scan) signals (480p), then these potential artifacts should be minimized (using a progressive scan DVD player, of course), but they may not be completely eliminated. I'm not at home, so I can't do any checking on my equipment.

Mark, I believe Scott answered this elsewhere in this thread (on one of the earlier pages). The bottom line is that CRT displays are analog devices and this disc was designed specifically to work with digital displays (like DLP and LCD projectors).

I believe I saw that here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6621281&&#post6621281), unless there was a previous post that I missed?

In any event, and I certainly don't mean to argue, unless there is a something specific about how the DVD was mastered that would make it inaccurate on a CRT based display then a gray window, for instance, should work equally well on any type of display - correct?

I do understand that the disc does not contain some patterns that would only be useful for CRT displays.

I am wondering what makes the DVD less useful with respect to measuring primaries, grayscale, and luminance on CRT based displays? If it is simply a matter of testing the disc on CRT based display devices, then I would be happy to help out. I am sure there is a market for such displays.

Thanks,
Mark

I am wondering what makes the DVD less useful with respect to measuring primaries, grayscale, and luminance on CRT based displays? If it is simply a matter of testing the disc on CRT based display devices, then I would be happy to help out. I am sure there is a market for such displays.

I think that basically, since the disc was designed specifically for digital displays, the bottom line is that Scott won't be interested in any issues that may or may not crop up on analog displays. This doesn't mean that there is any inherent reason for the disc not be accurate on CRTs, but just that if anyone finds a problem, there will most likely not be any corrections made, unless of course the problem occurs with digital displays. CRT calibration also requires a lot more patterns and encompasses a much larger project, and these patterns would be of no use for digital displays and would only serve to add clutter and confusion to the existing disc format.

If a screwdriver is designed to work as a screwdriver, but someone uses it as a pry bar, then that's just great. But if it fails in its capacity as a pry bar, the manufacturer is not going to make any changes in its construction, as it works just great as a screwdriver - like it was intended. Does this make sense? :)

Also, both AVIA and DVE have patterns that are designed to be used with CRT displays, too. In part, thats why they are more complex than this one is. The objective here is to provide a very accurate calibration tool for digital displays, only, which doesn't have the clutter of patterns needed for CRT calibration.

Like Bob said, this disc can certainly be used with CRT displays (and it will be accurate), but don't expect fixes if you run into a problem, unique to CRTs - or other types of analog displays, with it.

Hi guys: It was as I expected. There were a couple chapter markers off on the 100% color patterns by one GOP. This would have caused a "flicker" of the next color in the middle of watching the selected color at a rate of about 0.5 Hz.

I have corrected the mistake. Thanks to Damdy for catching the error.

I also looked at the alignment pattern. I didn't get any flicker on it, but I redid it and lengthened it by a few GOP's just to be sure.

I have also loaded Claus's lastest revision to the instructions for those wanting to see something. the file is WiebeInstructions-v5-8.0.pdf and is linked on the download page of the site (www.calibrate.tv).

I am uploading 5.0a now, it will be ready to D/L in about 10 minutes. Links on download page will update when it's ready.
Beta 5.0a is about 19Mb
Claus's instructions are about 548Kb

wow, thanks for the very fast fix!!

Regards Damdy

Like Bob said, this disc can certainly be used with CRT displays (and it will be accurate), but don't expect fixes if you run into a problem, unique to CRTs - or other types of analog displays, with it.

Thanks Claus :)

I agree... CRT specific patterns would clutter the disc and DVE and Avia are fine for such tasks. I am primarily interested in the gray windows and primaries. It is nice to finally see a disc that includes the patterns I need in a manner that is easy to access.

Thanks,
Mark

Scott - Are there any patterns included on your disk that are useful for calibration of devices with an auto-iris, such as the Ruby?

I'm not aware of the details, but there are some tricks needed such as mixing different IRE fields on the same pattern. Otherwise a proper grayscale calibration cannot be performed due to the auto-iris and needing various APLs - this cannot be achieved using traditional calibration patterns, I believe. See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=594433 for details.

If there is nothing currently on the disc to address this, it would make for a very unique and useful feature and help the disc stand even further apart from the others.

No, sorry I don't have any patterns specifically for the DI. I'm not againist adding them in a future version since gray patterns are relatively easy, but I'd need to understand what exactly was needed and how they'd be used. For those watching the DI thread, if a concensous is reached, let me know.

Thanks, Scott

lovingdvd -- Right now there is nothing on the calibration disk that addresses the auto-iris problem. As a matter of fact, turning off the DI/AI is recommended, before using it. This disc is primarily intended for use with DLP PJs and similar displays (like non-DI LCD PJs). It can certainly be used for DI PJs with the tricks mentioned in your referenced link.

From reading the ddingle thread, that you referenced, setting up field window patterns specifically for DI PJs is not a simple task. As Scott said, I'm guessing that the specific patterns, for DI PJs, is beyond the scope of what he is intending to do right now (for Version 1.0). Possibly in a future version something might be incorporated (especially of more PJs start using DI).

{-- Scott, you and I were answering at the same time. :D}

NOTE: It sounds like different implimentations of DI (or Xenon vs. UHP lamps) might require different sets of window patterns, although that really doesn't make sense to me (D65 balance doesn't change over the range of video levels).

I downloaded and burned my DVD this afternoon and took a quick look. I like and appreciate the layout and ease of navigation on this DVD. Well done!
I hope to spend some more time later this week going back through my settings.

Thanks for the details Claus. Considering:
- the Ruby arguably is, and will continue to be, THE hottest selling projector for the next several months to come

- and considering that special patterns are needed to properly calibrate the unit in its auto-iris mode

- and considering that these patterns are not readily available anywhere else (that I am aware of at least)

then I think it goes without saying that the addition of these patterns on the calibration DVD would represent a TREMENDOUS sales opportunity...

I would love to help out with this in any way I can. Unfortunately I am not familiar enough with the types of patterns needed and how to go about this. My guess however is that will be straight-forward to implement - the key as Scott mentioned is knowing WHAT to implement.

Hopefully someone in the know, or someone with some good ideas, will post these details so you guys can take a look to see how easy it is and what can be done.

Please keep us posted. Keep up the great work.

- the Ruby arguably is, and will continue to be, THE hottest selling projector for the next several months to come
Even if the Ruby does not continue with its current success (highly unlikely), the use of a DI will become more and more common. The rumors are that Optoma's H-81 might have a DI on its first gen 1080p single chip DLP, and others are sure to follow.

then I think it goes without saying that the addition of these patterns on the calibration DVD would represent a TREMENDOUS sales opportunity...
No doubt. Every DI owner would need one, and presently there is NO competition.

Hopefully someone in the know, or someone with some good ideas, will post these details so you guys can take a look to see how easy it is and what can be done.
Maybe Greg Rogers would have recommendations?

The flickering on the overscan pattern is due to using single lines for the markers. Single vertical lines are okay, but single horizontal lines will flicker at the field rate. This only applies to 480i output to a CRT. Anything that deinterlaces (PC, progressive DVD player, fixed pixel display) will not show the flicker.

From a few pages back, the RGB to/from YCbCr transforms are the same for PAL.

Ron

The flickering on the overscan pattern is due to using single lines for the markers. Single vertical lines are okay, but single horizontal lines will flicker at the field rate. This only applies to 480i output to a CRT. Anything that deinterlaces (PC, progressive DVD player, fixed pixel display) will not show the flicker. Excellent, thanks for pointing that out Ron.From a few pages back, the RGB to/from YCbCr transforms are the same for PAL.RonWhoohoo! Then I do not see PAL as being a problem, all the other steps I take allow for it. But not till this one is done. I'm back to working on lipsync now, that and some personal preference input on Claus's doc will wrap it up. Cheers, Scott

All: Beta 5.0b is loading. This is probably not one to go download if you already have 5.0. I'm just posting here for completeness. 5.0b:

Corrected an incorrect frame sequence in lipsync pattern causing a "jump" in the motion. Changed lipsync pattens so it the corresponding bars blink when the moving bar touches it. No sound, yet.

S

There might be a slight navigation issue with the 30%/80% Gray? When pressing "Next" on the remote it loops between the 30% then 80% pattern. The other Gray Patterns return you to the Gray Pattern menu after you've gone through all the subpatterns.

There might be a slight navigation issue with the 20%/80% Gray? When pressing "Next" on the remote it ultimately goes back to the Main Menu. Shouldn't it return to the Gray Patterns menu?

creakndale

Greetings all,

I have one problem with this excellent calibration disc that I figured I should report. On a new 61" Samsung DLP the second screen on the Brightness/Contrast tests is a complete wash. In other words, the bars are barely visible. All other patterns on all other screens are fine.

It is quite strange since the same brightness levels on the gradient scales are showing up fine. Any thoughts as to why?

Thanks

BTW, using a Toshiba DVD player in 720p mode with an DVI cable.

anyone order this download via credit card? i do not have paypal & Ursa tells me this program has the best images to use for calibrating.

let me know guys
thanks
Carmine.

Anyone???? Please

Carmine - I believe you need PayPal, unless Scott has opened up a merchant account. However, AVIA will do you well for a while until you get to the point where the color error becomes an issue (you need to be well under 10 dE before starting to worry here...).

Later,
Bill

Ok Bill, Thank You, also, have you taken a look at my other post regarding the post-calibration problems. I posted more info there for you to possibly help me with.

Thanks again Bill.
Carmine.

All: Beta 5.0b is loading. This is probably not one to go download if you already have 5.0. I'm just posting here for completeness. 5.0b:

Corrected an incorrect frame sequence in lipsync pattern causing a "jump" in the motion. Changed lipsync pattens so it the corresponding bars blink when the moving bar touches it. No sound, yet.

S

GetGray,

I've been quietly watching and waiting for what most feel to be a final/end product of your work. If you had a guess, how long might it be now before a final release is out and does Beta 5.0b include user instructions?

There might be a slight navigation issue with the 30%/80% Gray? When pressing "Next" on the remote it loops between the 30% then 80% pattern. The other Gray Patterns return you to the Gray Pattern menu after you've gone through all the subpatterns.

There might be a slight navigation issue with the 20%/80% Gray? When pressing "Next" on the remote it ultimately goes back to the Main Menu. Shouldn't it return to the Gray Patterns menu?

creakndale
This behavior is by design. It is the reason that sequence is there. A calibrator with a meter generally will "rock" back and forthe between those 2 levels as they adjust RGB gains and offsets to get D65 and those 2 points. In a perfect world, setting those points to D65 woudl cause teh rest of the curve to be flat at D65 but in reality that's not the case. It is however a good starting point. This pattern sequence allows the calibrator to go back and forth with one keypress (next). Otherwise it's back to a menu, navigate to a particualr level (i.e. 80) the select, then measure, now back to the menu, navigate to a level (i.e. 30) measure, etc. 1 keystroke vs a pile of them on my disc. If you accidentally go to the main menu on one of the "other" discs, now it a bigger pain to get back, unless you are adept and direct chapter and title selection which a lot of people (or player remotes) are not.

See?

I've been quietly watching and waiting for what most feel to be a final/end product of your work. If you had a guess, how long might it be now before a final release is out and does Beta 5.0b include user instructions?Well, as the whole thread reveals I never thought I'd spend this much time on it when I started. It all started from my desire to stop navigating (or not) on my Avia and DVE discs. Discs in and out to get the patterns I wanted, less-friendly navigation, too much fluff, too many techo patterns, all the things I've attempted to design out of this disc. Then Bob S. gave me the little bump I needed when he wanted the same thing tailored to the Accucal software which I also have. Then it began.... initially I thought much sooner, but after awhile I gave up estimating. All my other real, albeit often less fun, obligations kept getting in the way and still do to some extent.

So the short answer is no, I would not like to give an estimate because I might estimate short and miss it, or long and beat it. But... hopefully not too much longer. With the fix on "bump" in the moving pattern for the lip-sync, that's it for patterns for this version. Navigation is how I want it. All that is left to do it a soundtrack for the automated grayscale beeps (for Optic One / CA-6X users), which is easy. And of course the lipsync beeps which isn't as easy since it must be perfectly synced as that's it's purpose in life.

Docs will be an edited version of Claus's well done document (which Claus's doc in pdf is available on the disc's download page (www.calibrate.tv) and a previous similar version earlier inteh thread, for those who want a preview. I will add a few things to his and collaborate with him to wrap up that document, then it will be Official 1.0. Possibly with this version or a latter version I might be able to add an advanced document or 2 by different authors for those technically inclined but technically in the dark regarding color calibration, no promises there.

But if the lipsync pattern isn't an issue to you, and you don't use a Progressive labs colorimeter or some other instrument that can do a auto-grayscale with beep signals, then the all the rest of it is done. That is unless any other errors pop up. The beauty of having a nice large testbed has been that folks have found a couple little issues that I've been able to fix.

I see this disc as more of a living work or at least more live than others. Unlike the commercial discs which are pretty set, I can add/remove/change patterns as necessary. As long as it's size is manageable and it's downloadable owners (with DVD burners) and non-compromised accounts can get whatever the latest is. The dynamic iris is a good example of that. If the disc was "complete" in say a week, but then we determine what a good set of DI calibration patterns would be, I can add them and create version 1.1, etc. Someone could send me a pattern that's better than one of mine for consideration and I could add or replace one of mine if appropriate.

Too much answer :)? Cheers, Scott

Thanks for the update. Despite my interest early on my buddy helped me cal my set using an older version of AVIA. It has done me well albeit I think the brightness is still out of whack. I've been looking forward to you completing your work. However given my recent PC woes I couldn't download an early beta. My PC may be back up to snuff seeing how I installed a new HD, OS and the works this past weekend.
PayPal huh?.. Got it! Now do I need to get your works...? Everybody needs support, and you have done just that, support me and others here.
Keep up the good work!

Greetings all,

I have one problem with this excellent calibration disc that I figured I should report. On a new 61" Samsung DLP the second screen on the Brightness/Contrast tests is a complete wash. In other words, the bars are barely visible. All other patterns on all other screens are fine.

It is quite strange since the same brightness levels on the gradient scales are showing up fine. Any thoughts as to why?

Thanks

BTW, using a Toshiba DVD player in 720p mode with an DVI cable.


Anyone ?

pchronos -- My guess is that the contrast (White Level) is set too high, you're "crushing" the whites.

First set brightness and contrast to zero (or mid scale). The first screen is brightness (Black Level) and you should adjust the "brightness" so that you, at least, see the moving black bars that are above 0%. You set it so that you can see the 0% bar and then lower the brightness so that it just disappears. If you want to see "blacker than black", then you adjust so that you can see, at least the next bar below 0%.

Then you go to the Contrast (White Level) screen and adjust the "contrast" so that you can see, at least, all the bars below 100% (or one bar above 100% for passing "whiter than white"). These two controls are interactive, so you have to go back and forth between the two screens until you get it right. The third pattern (half black & half white) is used to verify your settings at a roughly 50% APL.

Scott -- In 5.0b, your new lip sync pattern doesn't seem to work right - it never hits the bars and when it's supposed to, it flashes a blue box above (or below) the bars. Unless that's the way you intended it to work?

NB: I will be on travel (back home) either Wednesday or Thursday and will be out of touch on that day. I hope everyone had a Happy New Year :D.

Anyone ?Sorry, you got me. The digital levels of the bars are marked in the pattern. On the stepped ramp pattern, the levels of the 2 rectangles beyond the video level tick marks are 5 and 1 respectively . On the brightenss pattern they are levels 20,18,16,14,7 on a background of 16 (so technically the middle bar is invisivle since it's 16 on 16). If you can see the "blacker than black" information on the stepped ramp, you should be able to see it in the brightness patterns as well.

pchronos -- Scott gave you the technically correct answer, I gave you the "arm-wave" (non-tech) version.

The third pattern (half black & half white) is used to verify your settings at a roughly 50% APL. Oops , thought he was talking about the dark pattern. Anyway same explanation fits pretty much. Re the third pattern, I actually put it there to as you surmised to give a pattern with a high APL. But is was not to check the settings made on the previous pattern per se. What I've found is that some calibrators preferred the Avia type pluge screen with a full black background to set brightness in a dark room, to maximize contrast, while others preferred a higher APL pattern which usually requires slightly elevated brightness settings to see the same bars due to the higher APL. I put both types of patterns so the calibrator can choose which they prefer. I prefer the dark pluge. Input welcome on this point.

Scott -- In 5.0b, your new lip sync pattern doesn't seem to work right - it never hits the bars and when it's supposed to, it flashes a blue box above (or below) the bars. Unless that's the way you intended it to work?Well, actually what happens is in the frame where the movig bar touches the stationary bar, the stationary bar turns to white (blinks) and in that same frame a blue box is presented. I'll work on this some. What I'm looking for is a pattern that a human can "time" and thus the metronome type movement so one knows mentally when to expect the beep. This should help with reflex times for us old n slow guys (me not you). To reinforce the instant in time, a blink of some sort to correlate with the beep. I'll try something different. Manye a blinking ball and leave the pattern colors alone?

Well, actually what happens is in the frame where the movig bar touches the stationary bar, the stationary bar turns to white (blinks) and in that same frame a blue box is presented. I'll work on this some. What I'm looking for is a pattern that a human can "time" and thus the metronome type movement so one knows mentally when to expect the beep. This should help with reflex times for us old n slow guys (me not you). To reinforce the instant in time, a blink of some sort to correlate with the beep. I'll try something different. Manye a blinking ball and leave the pattern colors alone?
I knew what to expect, so it was clear to me, but someone who gets the disc for the first time might not quite put 2 & 2 together. A blink someplace might be handy as a visual clue -- not sure what's easy to do (blink the whole - horizontal - bar?, blink a red spot somewhere??)

On the Brightness/Contrast -- I see what you mean. However, I found the black and white parterns to be better (for me anyway - my HC3 was a real challenge because of it's limited CR). The combined pattern might be better for checking with DI turned on, but it seemed to be less acceptable for my use.

pchronos -- Scott gave you the technically correct answer, I gave you the "arm-wave" (non-tech) version.


Claus, Scott, Thanks for the reply.

I will try again starting with the brightness bars first and report back the results.

Thanks again.

Hey Guys... first off HAPPY NEW YEAR to everyone.

Secondly, I am a bit confused. I have downloaded the 4.3 beta via an email that was sent to me after making my donation to paypal... but like the moron I am, I forgot to retain that email... now I am unable to download the newer betas as they are released.

When I go to the www.calibrate.tv site there is no link there to download the file... I also sent a PM to Gray last week but he has yet to get back to me.... is there anyone who can PM me with some help?

I 'd really appreciate it.

GetGray will certainly see your post here as he is here pretty much every day. I'm sure he'll respond.

Claus, Scott, Thanks for the reply.

I will try again starting with the brightness bars first and report back the results.

Thanks again.


Hello again everyone.

I retested and all is fine. Originally I thought the higher bar value was at 5%. At 2% max the bars are quite dark and not very different from each other on my set.

Hey Guys... first off HAPPY NEW YEAR to everyone.

Secondly, I am a bit confused. I have downloaded the 4.3 beta via an email that was sent to me after making my donation to paypal... but like the moron I am, I forgot to retain that email... now I am unable to download the newer betas as they are released.

When I go to the www.calibrate.tv site there is no link there to download the file... I also sent a PM to Gray last week but he has yet to get back to me.... is there anyone who can PM me with some help?

I 'd really appreciate it.Tattotearz: I just looked, no PM from you, musthave mispelled my username or something. Anyway, I keep a record of all the emails I send out, I just forwarded the original message to you. That should get you going again. Hang onto it. Best, Scott

got it Gray.... thanks a bunch :cool:

is this better than AVIA home theater guide, or a low cost alternative?

Possibly both. Easier to navigate and use not to mention cheaper.

is this better than AVIA home theater guide, or a low cost alternative?It depends on your needs and situation. This one is not a "guide" in anyway. No handholding, not a lot in the way of instruction at this time. But it has it's advantages over the alternatives.

Hi great work. 1 question: can this be used without a problem in PAL territory togther with SpyderTV and Colorimeter spreadsheet? Should I use special settings on my display and/or DVD then? I am referring to the IRE 10-100 Gray windows to calculate colour temp. Thanks in advance....

JGT: Sorry, I dont' know if you can use it in PAL land or not. It is an NTSC disc, but the colors/levels should be fine if you can play it.

Well I sure can play it since most DVD players play NTSC now. Not sure if I would have to choose different settings (like f.e. black at 0 or 7,5 IRE) to make sure the colours are correct.....Anybody with experience using NTSC disks to calibrate PAL systems??? Any catches? This disc of GetGray seems so good it would be a pity we can not use it....

That would depend on your DVD player. The calibration disc uses standard Video levels and represents what you would get with normal (movie) DVDs. You should not have to make any special changes.

I have my DVD player set to "Black" (equal to your "0 IRE" reference) for normal use, because otherwise my DVD player would crush blacks. Your reference to 7.5 IRE is not really applicable (see the extensive discussions here and in other threads), but it is roughly equivalent to the 16 (0%) that = "Video Black", on the GetGray Calibration disc. If you have your player set to "7.5" it might (like mine) use that for it's "blacker than black" (= 0) and the result is crushing the black level. This is true for any of the calibration discs available (AVIA, DVE, etc.).

Hi guys:

Anyone here besides me have an Optic One or Progressive Labs CA-6X setup? I have the sound ready for the automatic grayscale sequence where beeps are produced that will allow automation of the CA-6X software's grayscale measurments. I need some guniea pigs. I don' t have the cable made up for my setup, thought someone else might already.

Bruno? Anyone else?

Thanks,
Scott

OK, 5.0c is available on the website www.calibrate.tv. Only changes are sound on the auto-gray sequence for use when interfacing to OpticOne or Progressive Labs CA-6X colorimeter softrware which will do an automated grayscale run using the beeps on that pattern. Minor changes to start and end screens on all 3 gray window sequences.

S

Hang on, don't go get 5.0c. 5.0d is on it's way up. Should be ready about 20 minutes after the time this was edited.

Changed the lipsync pattern. This variation might be easier on the eyes.

I downloaded 5.0d and the zip file gives me an error message "unexpected end of archive". Maybe I had a glitch in the download so I'll try downloading it again. I'll show up twice in your logs just so you'll know why.

Maybe I didn't wait long enough for it to be fully uploaded?

EDIT: Same problem with the 2nd download. Won't unzip due to error.

I get the "unexpected end of archive" error when unzipping 5.0d as well.

I'll re-upload it in a few minutes.

Yup Scott, you need to re-zip 5.0d. WinZip says it's "not a valid archive".

Zip's OK, it just got a glitch in the upload. Have it reloaded in about an hour.

Someone mailed today asking for a refund for their contribution. They were looking for the handholding that I'm **Confident** this thread has repeatably pointed out this disc WILL NOT do. They didn't know it didn't have a filter. They said "didn't get a single useful screen out of the DVD and that's probably my fault in that I have no idea how to do any of this".

Now I don't know what type of screen the user was expecting that would have been useful, :confused: . Naked women for flesh tones :eek: :D ? Just don't know. :rolleyes: Maybe that should be the easter egg that was discussed awhile back, but I digress :D:D

Now to the user, I don't mean to offend or take your comment out of context (which it wasn't) but to point out to others, study up before pitching in, this ain't WalMart. It's software, it's a contribution toa project at this point, refunds are not an option.

Since this is a first and hasn't come up, I'm trying to be fair, and I'm sending the contribution back, this time. But I encourage everyone else to read the thread, but it is a long one so for those just coming on board, at least read the link below and others before jumping in, please.

Once again I'm compelled to give a disclaimer. This is the best disc for what it is IMO, but it is not going to calibrate your display for you. Nor will any of the other discs for that matter. YOU have to understand what to do with the patterns. This is a test pattern disc, and damn good one, but just a test pattern disc. There are no majic patterns that are going to set your colors.

Need a blue filter, $2 to THX will get you one, or for a sophisticated precision lifetime filter, get an optical one as mentioned in Claus's doc and this thread. If I am setting up my $10,000 LCD/DLP/Plasma, I think I'd prefer the optical filter which does not come with any available discs, but that's just me. And $2 to THX is a deal if you are tight.

Thinking about contributing, please do, it is certainly appreciated. But consider it a permanent thing. I'll take partial blame (that's a big stretch) since I don't ahve a detailed disclaimer on the website. I'll set aside soem time to go add it so should be no more "misunderstandings" as to what one gets.

Haven't read about the disc, at least read this snippet.
See post #206 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6426884&&#post6426884) (or plenty of others)

I think you would have been justified in denying the refund request. You are going way beyond being fair in giving the refund.

Yes, Scott, you and a number of us have repeatedly said that there was no "set of directions" (handholding). It sounds like your refund requestor needs something like the AVIA "Guide to Home Theater" DVD.

Unfortunately, I'm finding a (small) number of members (and some are not new members) that don't want to read the threads or do their own research. They just want the rest of us to tell them what to buy or use.

These members need to realize that AVS Forum is a media for users to exchange knowledge (asking questions) and information (and tips & tricks & very useful tools - like your excellent calibration disc) about the really neat Audio/Video medium which we enjoy. Some of us are very willing to share the experiences and knowledge that we have learned, but that does require that the requester needs to be willing to ask, read, learn, and do his/her own research to solve their own unique problem or purchase and maintain their dream HT system that fits within their personal constraints.

-- End of Lecture :eek: --

OK, I reloaded 5.0d. I named the zip file 5.0d1 for clarity as to which is the latest file. My apologies for the bad file. It happens.

Yes, Scott, you and a number of us have repeatedly said that there was no "set of directions" (handholding). It sounds like your refund requestor needs something like the AVIA "Guide to Home Theater" DVD.Maybe, but I don't know which patterns it has that will meet the perceived expectations. Still no naked ladies on it either ;). But it does have a blue film filter. I gave the contribution back but asked that they keep the disc, contribute again in the future if so compelled. The might want it after having Avia anyway, once they've seen the instructions that is and tried to decide if they have th brightness set properly, or contrast for that matter (using the CRT based instructions on the disc) :). Fun fun...

The 5.0d1 works as advertised. The lipsync flash works fine, except that I didn't see the moving bar actually touch the horizontal bars coincident with the flash. Looks like the lipsync "ping" is the final step (almost -- plus your editorial comments & additions for the "Instructions" - I'll need a day or 2 to meld it all together).

Claus: The "flash" is just 2 blocks of color as you see. The blocks are drawn in the same frame where the moving bar touches, It's the same art, the same tga file that has the bars touch and the blocks appear. That "sync" I can be sure of. It's your reflexes if they look off <smile>.

Audio is a different animal. And so here is audio to play with:

I have made a "mini-disc" with 2 variations of the lipsync pattern. This disc looks like the regular disc, but only has a lipsync pattern, no other links work, or work right. This is just fo checking the sync pattern. That way the larger full disc dosen't have to be loaded.

This D/L is open, public access: http://www.calibrate.tv/LipSync.zip

It has (2) variations on a pattern. #1 is what's on Beta 5.0d. If you press next, you get variation #2. #2 will cycle 10 times then return to the menu. Press back or do it again if you want to see it longer.

Seeking opinions on which is easier to associate the sound with the visual.

As for sync, I think I have it, I'm hoping Ron will have time to help and check my work in detail. The original soundtrack was being encoded in dolby but that throws additional complications into the pie, at least with my old Dolby encoder. Since this disc is relatively small, I just used regular PCM (wav) files.

Thanks guys,
Scott

Is that the 3rd thing that goes :rolleyes: .