Here is the order form for the blue THX filter glasses for those interested

Here is a link to order the filters that come with DVE.

http://www.videoessentials.com/extra_filters.php

Here is the order form for the blue THX filter glasses for those interested

Yeah buthow much are they? I see only shipping/handling quoted on the form.

Kal

Thanks for posting those links Itd01 and pchronos.

Kal, they are $3.00 per filter plus a SASE for DVE. The THX are basically free+shipping of $2.00 per pair. I ordered 3 for $6.00. I recommend them over the DVE filters. I have enough to do with my hands without trying to hold a piece of film in front of my eyes while I concentrate on a remote and colors on the screen. The THX glasses are like the cardboard 3D glasses they give at the movies. Low end, but highly usable and effective. Keeps your hands free, and they store flat in your DVD case, too.

I know the test patterns are pretty much finalized at this point, but are there any plans to add additional color patterns for red and green?

Thanks,
Mark

I know the test patterns are pretty much finalized at this point, but are there any plans to add additional color patterns for red and green?I hadn't planned to, what'cha have in mind?

I very much like the "Color & Tint" pattern and had hoped for similar patterns for adjusting red and green to account for color decoder errors in many displays. So if the "Color & Tint" pattern is used to compare the blue, gray, cyan, and magenta, then a similar pattern for red would compare red, gray, yellow, and magenta. Although Avia includes "Red Bars" and "Green Bars" for this task, I believe a pattern similar to your "Color & Tint" pattern would be more helpful.

Thanks,
Mark

I have made a "mini-disc" with 2 variations of the lipsync pattern. This disc looks like the regular disc, but only has a lipsync pattern, no other links work, or work right. This is just fo checking the sync pattern. That way the larger full disc dosen't have to be loaded.

This D/L is open, public access: http://www.calibrate.tv/LipSync.zip

It has (2) variations on a pattern. #1 is what's on Beta 5.0d. If you press next, you get variation #2. #2 will cycle 10 times then return to the menu. Press back or do it again if you want to see it longer.

Seeking opinions on which is easier to associate the sound with the visual.

As for sync, I think I have it, I'm hoping Ron will have time to help and check my work in detail. The original soundtrack was being encoded in dolby but that throws additional complications into the pie, at least with my old Dolby encoder. Since this disc is relatively small, I just used regular PCM (wav) files.
No opinions one way or the other on the 2 lipsync patterns? Like'em, don't like'em, both stink :)?

To me both patterns seemed synced. Honestly the one with the audio started to annoy me after a few times, but on the other hand the audio comes in handy because you now have a audio cue to go along with the visual. That way when your eyes start to bug out after looking at that pattern for a minute you still have the audio! haha :D I will vote for the one with the audio. I have to ask though, is there some other audio cue you can use besides that beep? :D Keep up the great work!!

?? They both have beeps. Only the little lipsync test DVD has any sound, and it has 2 patterns. One pattern has boxes that blink, teh other has a center ball that blinks instead. Both should have the beeps. It has to have audio, that's what the pattern is for. To sync the audio. I'll see if I can figure out how to make a tick sound instead of a beep.

get gray,

I just did the THX training level 2 and we got demo' and the glasses. They are great. Why did we not think of that before,

Larry

I've been following this thread for sometime now and I can honestly say that I am interested. At some point down the line I'll donate the suggested amount for the disc, I know a much more vivid image is possible with my DLP but it wouldn't hurt to be pointed in the right direction. :rolleyes: I do have to ask, how big the VIDEO_TS folder is? Main reason I'm asking is because I want to be sure that I'm purchasing the right batch of media rather than wasting potential disc space.

Ohh ok, I did not quite understand the instructions. I thought you said that one pattern was in the 5.0d1 complete disc and the second pattern was on the lipsync one. The pattern on the 5.0d1 disc did not have the audio, that is why I made the no audio to audio comparison. So, I just compared those two patterns.

Anyway, I went back and looked at the two different patterns. I like the one with the two boxes that blink instead of the one with the circle in the middle. The one with the boxes seems to be much easier on the eyes.
Sorry about the confusion! :)

I like the circle one better as well. The squares look non-intuitive, like something is messed up, while the circle looks like the rectangle thingie is "blowing up" when it touches the wall, and it seems to "match" the generation of a sound better.

I might make the circle a different color, though, like red.

BTW, I presume that you are waiting for my paypal virtual check to "clear before zapping me the links?!

I just did the THX training level 2 and we got demo' and the glasses. They are great. Why did we not think of that beforeWe did :) it's back in this thread somewhere. And I think it's in Claus's doc, too.

I've been following this thread for sometime now and I can honestly say that I am interested. At some point down the line I'll donate the suggested amount for the disc, I know a much more vivid image is possible with my DLP but it wouldn't hurt to be pointed in the right direction. :rolleyes: I do have to ask, how big the VIDEO_TS folder is? Main reason I'm asking is because I want to be sure that I'm purchasing the right batch of media rather than wasting potential disc space.
It is very small relative to DVD's. Uncompressed it's about 300Mb. So it won't put a dent in a single sided 4+ Gb DVD+/-R

I like the circle one better as well. The squares look non-intuitive, like something is messed up, while the circle looks like the rectangle thingie is "blowing up" when it touches the wall, and it seems to "match" the generation of a sound better. I might make the circle a different color, though, like red.
OK, one vote blocks, one vote circle (in diff color). Any other tribe menbers?

profjoe, re the other thing, you just didn't get the mail, I just pasted it into a PM to you here.

get gray,

I just did the THX training level 2 and we got demo' and the glasses. They are great. Why did we not think of that before,

LarryLarry, do you have any good THX contacts? Maybe I could get them to sell me a box full.

getgray:

don't know why it disappeared, perhaps it happed at the school/university level. my servers here don't seem to have it in the spam folder.

anyhow, thanks for the links. I am looking forward to playing with it tonight.

joe

PS. I would have thought it totally reasonable if you *were* waiting for the payment to clear...

No opinions one way or the other on the 2 lipsync patterns? Like'em, don't like'em, both stink :)?

I downed 5.0b several weeks ago and noticed the lack of audio in the lipsync pattern. My THX glasses have not arrived yet, but when they do, the newer 5.0d with lipsync audio would be nice. How do we beta testers go about getting the newer betas?

"How do we beta testers go about getting the newer betas?"

just follow the link in your original e-mail from GetGray :D

:cool:

PS. I would have thought it totally reasonable if you *were* waiting for the payment to clear...It's cheap, I can afford to be trusting for some of them :)I downed 5.0b several weeks ago and noticed the lack of audio in the lipsync pattern. My THX glasses have not arrived yet, but when they do, the newer 5.0d with lipsync audio would be nice. How do we beta testers go about getting the newer betas?Lipsync audio is not on the main disc yet. Only on the "mini-disc" which is linked directly for public download above. Use your same access credentials to get the updates. 5.0d1 is current, has sound on the auto-gray , not on the lipsync..... and , what Jim said.

FYI, I have to verify the audio is perfectly in-sync before I'll add it to the main disc. I posted the "mini-disc" link above to get input on the patterns on it. I'm also trying to change the beep to more of a tick sound to see how it goes.

Scott, I like the circle a tad better. A different color might not be better. You might want to try it and see though. I'm not sure what color would be best, red might be as distracting as the black boxes. I would think you want just a clue (maybe a smaller "ball"? in a different color -- say maybe yellow or green :confused: ).

Use your same access credentials to get the updates. 5.0d1 is current, has sound on the auto-gray , not on the lipsync..... and , what Jim said.

OK... sounds too easy... HOWEVER!!!! I don't read these forums daily anymore and tend to skip several days worth of posts. I obviously missed the day where keeping our credentials, user/pass, was discussed. I used my credentials then chunked the email after getting the zip down and burnt to DVD. OOPS.

OK... sounds too easy... HOWEVER!!!! I don't read these forums daily anymore and tend to skip several days worth of posts. I obviously missed the day where keeping our credentials, user/pass, was discussed. I used my credentials then chunked the email after getting the zip down and burnt to DVD. OOPS.I keep records of them, I'll look it up and send it. My be tomorrow before I can.. Edit: Email resent.

Can this disc be used in a HTPC for calibration purposes? If you set the PCs DVD player to play back the disc and put it in full window mode (say 1920x1080) will it scale these patterns ok?

Scott, I like the circle a tad better. A different color might not be better. You might want to try it and see though. I'm not sure what color would be best, red might be as distracting as the black boxes. I would think you want just a clue (maybe a smaller "ball"? in a different color -- say maybe yellow or green :confused: ).
My idea/intention was this.. Obviously to come up with a pattern to determine the video is in sync with the audio, but that's harder (for me visually) than it sounded. When watching an out-of-sync movie, personally I don't have the reflexes to tell quite which way it's off (early or late), but I *can* see it's definately wrong. The plan with the moving bar was to give the ability to "predict" when the audio beep/click/etc would happen. A moving bar gives a visual expectation and improves the reflex I think. Human reflexes, or at least mine make it more difficult to associate an almost instantaneous visual event and an instantaneous audio event such as a single beep and blink. Har dfor me to align when we are talking about hundreths of a second. I thought it would be easier to tell if the tone came early or late as opposed to just a blink by using a moving bar. Due to DVD/YCbCr/MPEG issues, we don't have the perfectly sharp lines we would prefer on moving lines so it becomes a little less accurate to see when exactly the bar really touches. That theory was unscientifically confirmed when you mentioned it looked like the moving bar and the flashing dots were off a little but it was actually the same video frame :).

I added the blinking element to help determining the exact moment when the bar touches, and it's that moment the sound starts. The "blink" lasts for one frame, as does the (current) tone. So I've tried several patterns as those following along know. What I have decided is at least *I* tend to watch the movement of the bar anticipating it's "touch". I think the pattern where teh superimposed "ball" blinks works best because it is effectively part of the moving bar element and does not pull your attention away from the moving bar itself. In contrast, the external blinking elements (black boxes) must be watched for (focused on) somewhat separately or peripherally from the bar to get the "sync". But then the moving bar is distracting.

So... I think a blink is good as a confirming video element as for exactly when the sound should occur, but the blink needs to be tied in some fashion to the moving element (bar) so the eyes can keep focus on the same element and have the advantage of prediction the moving bar brings and the confirmation of the blink.

Seem reasonable?

S

Can this disc be used in a HTPC for calibration purposes? If you set the PCs DVD player to play back the disc and put it in full window mode (say 1920x1080) will it scale these patterns ok?Should work just fine. Actually, since you are presumably going to be watching DVD's with the HTPC, you *need* to calibrate with a disc like this one to get it right. If it will play DVD's properly, it will play the calibration disc properly, and vice versa. But Bob Sorrel would be our resident thread expert on the HTPC details. Bob is a HTPC forum moderator and he's who really got me started on this. Obviously he's using a HTPC with it. Bob, still monitoring?

I added the blinking element to help determining the exact moment when the bar touches, and it's that moment the sound starts. The "blink" lasts for one frame, as does the (current) tone. So I've tried several patterns as those following along know. What I have decided is at least *I* tend to watch the movement of the bar anticipating it's "touch". I think the pattern where teh superimposed "ball" blinks works best because it is effectively part of the moving bar element and does not pull your attention away from the moving bar itself. In contrast, the external blinking elements (black boxes) must be watched for (focused on) somewhat separately or peripherally from the bar to get the "sync". But then the moving bar is distracting.

Seem reasonable?

S

Yes! I guess I was in the same boat (anticipation). I think that's why I liked the ball over the black boxes - easier to keep concentration on the moving object. BTW, I looked at it with my video editor, and I saw that the bar turns black with a blue ball on the contact frame. This seems to make it look like the bar doesn't actually hit the edge. I would suggest that you keep the bar blue throughout the motion, and just add the ball of whatever color you settle on.

It looked like it should be easy :eek: to get the ball to show up on the one frame coincident with the bar touching the horizontal edges, and then add the ping/ding coincident with that frame. Based on your reported experiences, the "talk" is easier than the actual "doing". You got the ball/boxes right on, but I guess the sound sync isn't as easy as the manuals say (especially since you have to deal with some delay on any playback system).

Maybe it's just me but all these moving balls and bars kinda sounds like the old Pong game i used to play. Is that what is being used as a lyp/sink test? A colored ball w/moving bars that turn colors when the ball strikes it. It might also make for a unique screen saver should you put one in.

Yeah, it does smack of Pong, but that's the principle - make the visual clues (the video) match the audible clues (the audio). The video gets delayed in the processing steps (deinterlacing and scaling) and the audio has to be delayed so that they are synchronized - hence "LipSync".

Hey guys, good news and bad news. I'm carefully doublechecking the patterns and using the disc on my own system to verify it's performance. I found an error in the main "Color/Tint" Pattern. The level of white in that pattern is 235, it should be 180. I'm surprised no one noticed it, since it would have made anyone's color adjustment very difficult if not impossible, and wrong. Sorry about that guys, comes with Beta software. But the good news is I'll have it fixed and uploaded as Beta 5.1 in about an hour.

In using the pattern, I have also changed it slightly. I removed the color box "matrix" in the upper right corner, and duplicated the animated part of the pattern on the right side of the screen. This is a fundamental pattern for color adjustment and some have had trouble depending on where their OSD popped up their menus. This will address and cure that issue.

Thanks, and my apologies again about the colorlevel error on that pattern. I'm not sure which beta introduced it.

Edit: 5.1 is being uploaded to the website now. Contributors use the same access instructions from your original email to access it. It will be avail at the top of the hour. If you are not in a hurry, you might want to wait until Monday. I'm hoping to revise a couple other patterns and have them ready for D/L by then. Wee hours of teh morning are a good time to load, please dont' everyone hit the server at once. If you hit it during the busiest times, the likelihood of getting a bad D/L increase.


Scott

I removed the color box "matrix" in the upper right corner,

Hi Scott,

your point reminde me to an issue at the Greyscale- and Color- Patterns. The labbeling for this patterns is in the Middle under the Pattern. Thats area is slightly hind by the tripod by calibrating with my Spyder. I think the better way is point it on the Top of the Patterns. What do you think?

Best Regards Damdy

I beat you to it. I'm putting them above and below for just the reason you point out and for the various OSD's that get in the way. I'm also changing the font as I touch up. Thanks for the excellent suggestion.

No 5.1 beta on the site yet?

Try now... Had to update link.

There we go!

This is a pretty useful disk!

Thanks for replying GetGray and also I'm wondering if anyone else is getting a dead link for purchasing the THX glasses? :(

http://www.thx.com/mod/products/dvd.html

Yes, me too. Maybe they got flooded with requests. Can't imagine why :) But ther entire "store" says it's down so maybe unrelated.

Ive just downloaded the new disc but not tried it yet but was wondering will it be too different for me since I use PAL in NZ?
Mind you I do use both PAL and NTSC DVD's as well!
What do folks do in that situation normally? :confused:

5.1b will be available later today.

New color and gray window patterns: window pattern boundaries on 8x8 borders, labels added to top and bottom of patterns.

Added chevrons for letterbox in alignment pattern

Revised auto-grayscale pattern so windows are 6 sec with beep occuring at 5 seconds. This will allow a "poor mans" auto grayscale by allowing some reflex time from the beep before the pattern changes.

Revised the lip-sync pattern. When the moving bar touches, it has a inner finger that blinks white. On the outside edges of the sceen black boxes also blink with the sound. Lengthened pattern before it repeats. Pauses at repeat cycle.

Added sound to lip-sync. Still verifying it is aligned perfectly.

Lip-sync sound changed from beep to a "click". Click occurs on leading edge of frame that has moving bar touching.

Minor changes to Color/Tint pattern.

Also, Claus's latest instruction doc was moved to the unprotected part of the website for public viewing without access credentials. (www.calibrate.tv)

Uploading now, ready in about 15 minutes.

For those who like to label their discs, I have a high resoultion jpeg on the download site for their discs. Looks like:

http://www.calibrate.tv/DiscLabelLowRes2.jpg

If your new and only downloaded 5.1 version does that automatically also give you all the earlier versions?

There is only one earlier version I left on the site. It was for a specific user who wanted a specific sequence I cut in the 5.x series. Otherwise, every version is an improvement over the previous and you would not want an older version, unless you wanted some error or missing improvement.

In other words, the latest disc contains all previous fixes, is complete, and should be the one to use. I'm considering a few additional patterns but 5.1a is looking like a candidate for final.

I am considering one other rocking gray window, and possible adding 2 more animated color windows for checking red and green color/hue if the color decoder is off and one wants a compromise.

I believe I'll work on the docs before doing any new patterns however. Unless an error crops up in 5.1a, I hope it is a stable version for now.

Next is PAL.

Scott

I just ordered the files with Paypal. Now my question. (I may have pulled the trigger too soon, I don't know)
I have a Macintosh computer. Do the files translate?
Will I be able to use the files in your format to make the disk, or am I going to have to wait for the Mac version, if there will be one. I know that I can open Windows files as I have done so in the past. I have MicroSoft Office for Mac.
Sorry for the novice question. I have a Mits WD-52725, and am very happy with it, but I am one of those that want everything better than what is already there, so I thought I would get the disk and try to get it looking better.

Thanks for the work on this project!
Lyle

Dont' know much about Macs. If it has software that can play a DVD from files, then it won't matter. The files are meant to be put onto a DVD, then played. They are not PC files, per se. The download is a zipped VIDEO_TS folder like that on any commercial DVD, minus the macrovision, etc.

With just a little looking I found out that I am able to use the files, play them from my desktop, and burn DVD's from them.
I guess I was so excited to have something that I can use to calabrate my DLP I just didn't take it slow enough.
Now I know that there is limited "How to" information concerning this disk, but just for information, will I have to go into the "Service Disc" that I have for this TV. (Mits WD-52725) I haven't gone into the depths of the disc, as I am just learning. I have no expensive equipment and have limited knowledge how to go about starting this work.
Thanks for the information. I was more than happy to pay for the disc, and hope that it will bring me better performance in the future.
Thanks:
Lyle

parlyle -- There is nothing that prevents you from writing this disc with a Mac, as you found out. The answers to the questions that you've asked have nothing to do with calibration disks, and will not be discussed on any of them. You need to read the threads on your Mits WD-52725 - I've seen reference to it in several of them.

The basic calibration does not (normally) require that you go into the Service Menu (or the disc). The adjustments for Brightness (Black Level), Contrast (White Level), Color (Stauration), and Tint (Hue) should all be in the main menu(s) (read the manual for your set). You might have some "Auto" controls, which need to be turned Off, or some adjustments will not be accessable (they'll be "grayed" out).

With the default settings on my Mits HC3 PJ, I can only set Brightness & Contrast. I found that for my satellite TV feed, the default settings turn out to be the best compromise, with some room lighting turned on. However, those settings were terrible for watching DVD movies. I turned off selected (by trial & error) Auto settings, and used the Caldisc for setting all the basic adjustments (and it did not require trying to find the Service Menu). I also made sure that I was using the "Theater Mode" for the most natural color & brightness, before calibrating. I did not do any of the individual R, G, & B adjustments.

Make sure that you write down ALL of your default settings BEFORE you start to adjust, or you may not be able to get back to them, if you twiddle the wrong adjustment. I can't emphasize this too much, it's bitten quite a few members who forgot to do this.

Ive just downloaded the new disc but not tried it yet but was wondering will it be too different for me since I use PAL in NZ?
Mind you I do use both PAL and NTSC DVD's as well!
What do folks do in that situation normally? :confused:
Anyone have an answer for me on this yet please?

I must have missed your question. It actually was answered earlier in the thread (on one of the previous pages). If you can play NTSC discs (I'm assuming that you can), then the basic (brightness, contrast color, & tint) settings are the same. One of the earlier posts stated that these codings for PAL and NTSC are the same. The primary difference is 50Hz vs. 60Hz frame rates and the size (number of scan lines) of the fields.

GetGray stated, in Post #549, that he will prepare a PAL version next.

I'd love to get and play with this disc. Unfortunately, I don't have a DVD burner.

I live in a cave but at least I have a projector. :-)

I live in a cave but at least I have a projector. :-)

You and Plato. :)
http://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/cave.htm

Kal

Hi All,

I have the current version of the disk and noticed that all of the screens are 'shaking' and or flickering. The image moves and the text flickers and cuts in and out. I assume this isn't normal and I don't see that while using Avia or DVE. What might cause this?

Bad disc media or player unable to effectively read the particular media is my best guess. I use and recommend Taiyo Yuden DVD-R. They can be obtained inexpensively from www.rima.com. I recommend if you own any Maxell, Memorex, thrown them in the trash. They are usually rebranded off-brand cheap discs with poor dye layers.

LET's NOT get into a DVD media discussion here but there *are* good ones and bad ones. To discuss the issue of media and getting good DVD creation tips, please post and discuss in the thread for same here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6671145&&#post6671145 (I posted a couple new to the thread links on the issue)

As for the calibration disc and is it the cause, I say no. It is created with static, progressive frames, and flickering on it should be no different than text from any other disc on the same player/decoder. It plays fine on everything I've tested it on, including my Sony XBR CRT direct view which if anything was going to flicker, it should. My DLP projector has no flicker whatsoever. Certainly no "cutting in and out".

Ron (dr1394) mentioned awhile back in the thread that some flickering would be evident on CRT's displaying the alignment pattern (that pattern specifically) since I used single lines for the overscan lines. The disc is specifically designed *not* to be used with CRT's so I can live with that.

I've had no problem with TDK DVD+R media.

Mark

Bad disc media or player unable to effectively read the particular media is my best guess. I use and recommend Taiyo Yuden DVD-R. They can be obtained inexpensively from www.rima.com. I recommend if you own any Maxell, Memorex, thrown them in the trash. They are usually rebranded off-brand cheap discs with poor dye layers.

LET's NOT get into a DVD media discussion here but there *are* good ones and bad ones. To discuss the issue of media and getting good DVD creation tips, please post and discuss in the thread for same here:http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6671145&&#post6671145

As for the calibration disc and is it the cause, I say no. It is created with static, progressive frames, and flickering on it should be no different than text from any other disc on the same player/decoder. It plays fine on everything I've tested it on, including my Sony XBR CRT direct view which if anything was going to flicker, it should. My DLP projector has no flicker whatsoever. Certainly no "cutting in and out".

Ron (dr1394) mentioned awhile back in the thread that some flickering would be evident on CRT's displaying the alignment pattern since I used single lines for the overscan lines. The disc is specifically designed *not* to be used with CRT's so I can live with that.


Thanks.

I am particular about what I use for blank media, in this case I was using Verbatim (made in Japan), which is highly rated anywhere I have ever looked. I might try burning the disc with other software, to see what happens. My burner is a Plextor, which is also highly rated, so I really don't have anything cheap or low quality, in that regard.

I have the Oppo DV971H, which is a very popular player amongst these forums. Does anyone have this player, that has used this calibration disc? As for my tv, I have a RPLCD, made by Panasonic.

If I figure it out, I will update you. Not a big deal to me, but thought I'd see if anyone has experienced this or if it was needed for a bug list.

If you're using Verbatum DVD-R disks with the Plextor drive, then I would suspect the software or it's use.

See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6671145&&#post6671145, post #2, for more details.

If you're using Verbatum DVD-R disks with the Plextor drive, then I would suspect the software or it's use.

See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6671145&&#post6671145, post #2, for more details.

Thanks. I had realized that I had made a mistake with the media, I actually used a cdr and created a mini-dvd. That works fine and plays, but I had the strange flickering. I then tried a dvd-r and different software (deepburner) and the same outcome. Now I was wondering if it was the player. I tried one of those discs in my older neuneo and it just spit it out. Long story short, I installed the latest verison of Nero, created a video dvd and threw it back into the neuneo and it seemed to work fine, which is a better sign. I will have to try it on my Oppo tonight. If it works, I guess the software or how the disc is created, does make a difference.

yarrumc -- Please post these comments to http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6671145&&#post6671145 and leave this thread for GetGray's caldisc software only.

yarrumc -- Please post these comments to http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6671145&&#post6671145 and leave this thread for GetGray's caldisc software only.

Will do, although my issue is related to his disc and that thread is for creating a video disc from files. One might not know that thread exists or was a spin off of this thread, such as myself, because my problem was with this particular disc. I will post any further questions or problems in that thread. Thanks.

Scott -- I emailed (to your calibrate.tv address) the updated Draft 9 PDF instructions which now matches your Beta 5.1b, so you can update your web page. The update is new pictures only.

Note: The DOC file just went to your av-rs232 address.

I have a slightly OT question, but it might be a cheap way to use this disc without specialized equipment so... here goes:

I am presuming that, if you were to look through a blue filter at a blue field the image should look exactly the same with/without the filter. If you were trying to check grayscale then, would it be possible to look at a blue ramp with one of the THX glasses where you yanked one eye's filter and tune the blue cut/gain's so that the blue looks the same with/without the filter?

Related question: could you, instead, use the existing blue ramp (with the gray neighbors at the top edge) with a filter over both eyes and try to match the intensity of the blue and gray across the whole IRE scale?

I am sure that I am simply showing my ignorance with this question, but I cannot figure what I have wrong here...

I have followed the thread since beta 2, and recently donated and tried out the latest beta. It works quite well at what it does, although personally, I am a little disappointed at the loss of the sharpness pattern. While this is aimed at fixed-pixel displays, it could still help people like me trying to get LCD displays to stop sharpening images on us.

I have followed the thread since beta 2, and recently donated and tried out the latest beta. It works quite well at what it does, although personally, I am a little disappointed at the loss of the sharpness pattern. While this is aimed at fixed-pixel displays, it could still help people like me trying to get LCD displays to stop sharpening images on us.

Agree - there are several reasons why sharpness patterns are still very necessary for digital displays, including verification/tuning of edge enhancement introduced by some processors/components.

My displays aren't too sensitive to sharpenss adjustments. I can see the effect int eh horizontal border lines of teh frequency bursts patterns. Since that was the *only* usefull thing I could find for those patterns I left them in. If I can think up a good shapness adjustment pattern I will replace those with it.

Meanwhile, I have Claus's latest revision to his disc documentation available on the website. As he said, it is only a picture change so I do not recommend downloading it unless you never have. I will be adding some to it before calling it "official".

yarrumc is still having trouble getting a good burn. If one of you guys who are familair with buring DVD's can go to that thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...5&&#post6671145) and help him, I expect he'd be gratefull.

Best, Scott

Thanks Scott, I got 2 requests for copies before you updated your site.

I sent yarrumc a PM to see if I can help him.

If anyone is having trouble burning the DVD I would suggest the Free program DVD Shrink.
Download the program and install. Open the unziped files and if you have Nero installed it
will burn the DVD in a few minutes. Works great.

Burning how-to's, suggestions, etc. on the other thread please. Thx.

Agree - there are several reasons why sharpness patterns are still very necessary for digital displays, including verification/tuning of edge enhancement introduced by some processors/components.OK, here's a basic sharpness pattern addition to the overscan/alignment pattern. There should be no "ringing" lines between teh sets of 1,2,3, and 4 pixel wide vertical bars. The bars should not blur on the lower end of sharpness. Frequency bursts are separate and remain.

http://www.calibrate.tv/beta5/Overscan.jpg

Beta 5.1c includes this revised pattern. Uploading now.

OK, here's a basic sharpness pattern addition to the overscan/alignment pattern. There should be no "ringing" lines between teh sets of 1,2,3, and 4 pixel wide vertical bars. The bars should not blur on the lower end of sharpness. Frequency bursts are separate and remain.

Beta 5.1c includes this revised pattern. Uploading now.

This is pretty much perfect for testing, along with the frequency bursts. Thanks.

I just got a Sharp Aquos 26" display, and the first thing I did was pop in the calibration disc using a 360 (Why? The 360 doesn't postprocess the decode, making it a little easier to calibrate the display alone, rather than display+postprocessor). Everything that is tweakable in user-mode was calibrated as well as my eyes can tell in under 5 minutes. It helped that the panel's contrast/brightness was *spot-on* right out of the box though.

Still, this disc blows away Avia for those who know even a bit about what they are doing and don't need hand-holding, or perverse menu structures.

I agree this disk is great. I would hope that someone writes introductory calibration instructions so that more people could take advantage of the disk.

:) I agree this disk is great. I would hope that someone writes an introductory calibration instructions so that more people could take advantage of the disk.
I totally agree! I have Avia & DVE and I have completed my calibration really quickly with this SIMPLE approach!
Yes I love it and my image does look hot!
The newly added sharpness was a huge bonus! Its the very first time Ive ever fixed that area thats always seemed a bit difficult to understand. I was always using my player on 1080i for my Hitachi PJ TX 200 projector but found by changing it to 720p through the sharpness test, all the edge ringing went!
Nice work guys I really cant think of anything else thats needed except the INFO of how to use should be at the start rather than on bits of paper that one may loose. :)

In the gray patterns area, I would like to see one more thing added. A gradient or 2% gray Ramp from black to 30% only. This would allow me to check the low end (black to dark gray) without being washed out by bright whites. In other words, to check the linearity of gray (abstance of color) in the shadows. Maybe with a marker at 16.

Just signed up for this. Excellent disc.

One comment so far. Is there any way to tone down the beeps on the auto grey windows? The level seems to be pretty high and I got a bit of surprise when it beeped.

rwestley -- That's the reason for the disclaimer "You should know what your doing" (you can use the internet for more calibration "why & what-for" information, if needed - and both ChrisWiggles and Ursa and others, have provided quite a bit of detailed information in their AVS Forum threads). The reason for not providing more hand-holding has been explained before, but basically it's due to trying to keep away from possible infringement on copyrights (intellectual property & otherwise). Scott will be providing me with some more information, so that we can add more details to the "Instructions" (as soon as he's finished polishing up Version 1.0).

Murray1080 -- just save the PDF file on your computer, and you won't "loose" the pieces of paper. I actually prefer "manuals" in PDF files, because I can refer to them (and do word searches) while I'm using the equipment. If I really need a paper copy, I can just print it out (and only the parts that I really need).

I have the same problem, that's why I always try to save stuff to one of my external hard drives - that way I can get to it from either my laptop or desktop 'puter :D.

Disto -- That's not really needed, IMHO, since the "Brightness" test pattern has -2% to +2%, and the gray window test patterns, let you check out the gray scale from end to end, one step at a time. The existing ramps let you check the whole range (the 70% to 100% region is just as important as the 0% to 30%). That may be something Scott can consider in the next revision.

jvincent -- I noticed this also (on the "auto gray windows") - got your attention, didn't it?. However, you can always turn down, or mute, your volume, if necessary. I can always put a note in the "Instructions". It did surprise my significant other (what's that :eek: ) while I was checking it out on my laptop.

I did read the disclaimer and for me there are no problems. I just thought that the disk could reach a wider group if it had detailed instructions. I must have missed the posts on the copright issue.

However, you can always turn down, or mute, your volume, if necessary. I can always put a note in the "Instructions". It did surprise my significant other (what's that :eek: ) while I was checking it out on my laptop.

You missed me lunging for the volume control last night. :)

I normally keep my volume relatively low and when the auto windows came one they were quite loud and sharp. I'd be curious to know what level they were recorded at.

A note in the instructions is definitely a good idea but I think lowering the volume on the tone and perhaps "softening" it is also a good idea. Just thinking of all those tweeters out there.

Help needed on the getgray cont/bright settings please?

When I was calibrating my Hitachi PJ TX 200 it was easy to get ALL the contrast/brightness settings from the getgray disc.

Now I have the the Mitsibish HC3000 DLP projector and I find it impossible to get BOTH COMPLETE settings of 16 video black & 235 video white. I can get ONE of them in, but it takes a bit away from the other. So if you cant quiet get both of them dead right, which is the better one to favour? I would have thought getting the black correct for detail would be better than the white?

How I did set it up was, both black and white the same equals but they are both missing the final shade on the grid patterns..........

What do people think is the best approch to take in this situation? :confused:

Murray, you want to make sure that you get down to 0% and up to 100% -- you don't need to see "ALL" the bars. The -4% and -1% on the Brightness pattern are "below black" and the +2% and +5% on Contrast pattern are "above white" -- are not as important.

If you can get to the first bar (-1%) below 0% and the first bar (+2%) above 100% then that's even better, and that sounds like what you've done :D. These two adjustments are interactive and how much adjustment you have will also depend on which inputs you are using, as well as the source (your DVD player, in this case).

NOTE: I'm assuming that you're talking about the Brightness/Contrast patterns and not the grayscale ramps (those can be used to check the final adjustments). Congratulations on your new HC3000 :cool:, BTW.

I would like to know if there is a way to get this disc all ready burned? I don't have much use for a DVD burner, but sure would like this disc.

Duke

mrduke -- Do you have a friend with a PC & a DVD burner? They could do it for you. That would be the easiest, and least expensive, solution.

Hi GetGray,

I have a suggestion that is a little bit freaky.
Is there a possibility to ad discreet Codes into a DVD?
The Idea is, that when the different Pattern at the Grayscale and Colors have this (for example DVD-Player Code #1=black, #2=10IRE...) than there is a ability to make a automated Grayscale and Color Reading like in Colorfacts with Video- Card generated Pattern.
If there is a way, i think there also is a way to make this automation with girder and a Infrared- Transmitter.

Best Regards Damdy

Murray, you want to make sure that you get down to 0% and up to 100% -- you don't need to see "ALL" the bars. The -4% and -1% on the Brightness pattern are "below black" and the +2% and +5% on Contrast pattern are "above white" -- are not as important.

If you can get to the first bar (-1%) below 0% and the first bar (+2%) above 100% then that's even better, and that sounds like what you've done :D. These two adjustments are interactive and how much adjustment you have will also depend on which inputs you are using, as well as the source (your DVD player, in this case).

NOTE: I'm assuming that you're talking about the Brightness/Contrast patterns and not the grayscale ramps (those can be used to check the final adjustments). Congratulations on your new HC3000 :cool:, BTW.
Thanks for that CT I will check again tonight! Your a wealth of information :)
Now for another question?

How do you know if you really are sitting on D65k?
The Mitsubishi HC3000 is sitting on that setting yet when I check with the blue filter its not quite right. Im on HDMI and that lock out changing the Colur/Tint controls. Ive just had someone on the Mitsubishi HC3000 thread tell me the 6500k setting is more like 9000k tested from his Lumagen. I can change the RGB settings but dont know how to do that from the Getgray disc?
What do you do to correct this or at least get it closer to the D65k?
The cloure to me is natural but I feel its not very colurful as the 900,Z4 and PJ TX 200 after they were calibrated. Mind you all of those one could change the colour/tint when on HDMI.

Hope you can help me out on this one CT or someone else please? ;)

Murray, That's something that I can't help you with because I'm not familiar with the HC3000 adjustments. You say you're using the HDMI inputs, are you using an up-scaling DVD player, or a HTPC? That would make a difference. For a HDMI signal, the Color/Tint adjustments have to be made in the source.

As for setting true D65, you really need instruments to make a correct determination of the color temperature (that's what the 5% Gray Auto Windows are for) . This is something that you need to get from the HC3000 threads. I seem to recall that the lowest Color Temperature setting (or Lamp Mode - I don't know what Mitsu calls it) is closer to D65, than what they say in the manual. I don't remember which thread it was in, or who posted that comment.

NOTE: You shouldn't be using any setting higher than "Theater" (or "Theater Mode"), depending on where it is in the HC3000 menu structure, and what adjustments are available with the HDMI input.

If you need more help from me, let's do it by PM, so we don't sidetrack this thread.

Scott, I've updated the "Instructions" to Draft 9a (to keep up with your changes). I've changed the Opening Screen picture to 5.1c on page 1, added some words on the "Beeps" for the 5% Gray Auto windows on page 3, and changed the Overscan/Allignment/Sharpness picture and added your words (edited - from your post #574) on page 7. I'm emailing both the PDF and DOC files to your calibrate.tv address. -- Sent!

Murray, That's something that I can't help you with because I'm not familiar with the HC3000 adjustments. You say you're using the HDMI inputs, are you using an up-scaling DVD player, or a HTPC? That would make a difference. For a HDMI signal, the Color/Tint adjustments have to be made in the source.

As for setting true D65, you really need instruments to make a correct determination of the color temperature (that's what the 5% Gray Auto Windows are for) . This is something that you need to get from the HC3000 threads. I seem to recall that the lowest Color Temperature setting (or Lamp Mode - I don't know what Mitsu calls it) is closer to D65, than what they say in the manual. I don't remember which thread it was in, or who posted that comment.

NOTE: You shouldn't be using any setting higher than "Theater" (or "Theater Mode"), depending on where it is in the HC3000 menu structure, and what adjustments are available with the HDMI input.

Scott, I've updated the "Instructions" to Draft 9a (to keep up with your changes). I've changed the Opening Screen picture to 5.1c on page 1, added some words on the "Beeps" for the 5% Gray Auto windows on page 3, and changed the Overscan/Allignment/Sharpness picture and added your words (edited - from your post #574) on page 7. I'm emailing both the PDF and DOC files to your calibrate.tv address.

Thanks CT . Im using the Denon 3910 player on 720p HDMI and "Cinema" mode and a setting of 6500k on the HC 3000. But colour and tint are locked out on HDMI on the HC 3000.
OK so it would be best to then try to do the colour and tint from the player using a blue filter, true? If I get all the clours showing a clean blue on the test disc does that mean Im closer to a true D65k?

Wow, what a burst of activity. I didn't get my regular AVS e-mail notification on this thread but got others, dunno why. Anyway, just read and got caught up I think.

re: beeps, I'll check them and tone them down some. No one complained, I presume the "clicks" on the lipsync pattern were OK?

re: manual/instructions. Claus, et.al. Actually have been working on my revision to Claus's excellent document. I am adding more basic explanations on what each pattern is designed to do, and when possible a very basic description of what to do to use it. I'm pretty good with tech writing, but Claus has the tech writing experience so when I get done, I'll let him (hope he will that is) have a whack at cleaning up.

re: where's the paper? The plan is to include at least the .pdf file on the final DVD (and of course the website).

finally re: discretes. No, sorry, the DVD spec doesn't' allow for discretes per se. YOu can do some really complicated things with so memory registers, but unfortunately, number reception to the DVD itself isn't part of the DVD communication paradigm. That's handled by the player if it has numbered buttons. About the only controls you can sense are next, play, stop, menu, etc. All "controls" are sent via menus. You can for example make a menu with a button that says auto play. Then if that button is selected, save a value to a
register. Then back on the main menu play track 1. At the end of track one lookup that register and based on it's setting do something, e.g. go to main menu ,or play next track, increment register, etc. If it could "hear" button presses, I would have a wealth of control which would be nice but it's not there :(

Thanks guys,
Scott

re: beeps, I'll check them and tone them down some. No one complained, I presume the "clicks" on the lipsync pattern were OK?


Yes, the clicks on the lipsync pattern were much friendlier.

I found a couple of other things.

1. The frequency bursts appear to be encoded as 4:3, at least that is what TT detects.

2. There are several patterns that "flicker" every couple of seconds when they are up. It's most noticeable on the Bell Nuit pattern, but I also see it many of the static patterns as well. I haven't gone through them all but it's happening on: Overscan, Y/C delay, colour ramps, frequency bursts for sure.

Murray1080 -- you have a PM.

Scott - I'll be happy to.

jvincent -- The patterns are not static, they are at least 2 successive frames. The frequency bursts are 10 frames long, each. If your getting "flicker" it sounds like you may have a de-interlacing problem somewhere.

I was just getting ready to purchase the disc and noticed in the documentation that there did not seem to be full field patterns - only 10% and 5% window patterns. Is this correct?

If there are not 5% and 10% full field patterns, please considering adding these right away.

At first glace in may seem that a window pattern is sufficient. However after gaining a significant amount of experience calibrating a couple Ruby projectors with the auto-iris, I can assure you that having BOTH full field and window patterns is critical to the calibration process.

This is because the auto-iris acts differently as the APL changes, which impacts the grayscale, so proper calibration must take into account varying APLs. Generally calibrating with a full field vs. window pattern is sufficient variation to calibrate this correctly.

Please let me know if you plan to add these full window patterns (assuming they are not already on the disc and I am overlooking them in the docs). Thanks and keep up the great work.

lovingdvd -- This was discussed, at length, in previous posts, in part to your original request. All of the gray scale patterns are windowed and not full field. You are not the only one to ask for full field patterns. Scott may add the full field patterns in a future release, rather than delay the initial, Version 1.0, release any further.

Adding patterns for Auto-Iris (DI) PJs was not the original intent of this calibration disc. Since the newer LCD PJs, including a one or two DLPs, are incorporating DI functions (in a effort to achieve higher CRs), this certainly would be a candidate for a future release.

I don't know how much work it would be to add them at this stage (it requires both generating the patterns and redoing the menus - possibly adding a new menu - and makes a major change to the organization of the DVD and it's not "just" a simple add-on). I'm guessing that this would be at or near the top of the list for the next update.

jvincent -- I forgot to add that both the Frequency Burst patterns and the Belle-Nuit pattern are 4:3, and are flagged as such. I think all the rest are 16:9, IIRC. Those two pattern sets were obtained from contributing sources (with permission of the authors) and are used as is. The rest of the patterns were developed by Scott, himself.

RE: Your "flicker" problem - could this be somthing in your HTPC video card drivers/software or TT operation?

jvincent -- I forgot to add that both the Frequency Burst patterns and the Belle-Nuit pattern are 4:3, and are flagged as such. I think all the rest are 16:9, IIRC. Those two pattern sets were obtained from contributing sources (with permission of the authors) and are used as is. The rest of the patterns were developed by Scott, himself.

RE: Your "flicker" problem - could this be somthing in your HTPC video card drivers/software or TT operation?

Hi Claus,

Thanks for confirming the frequency burst AR. The documentation said that Belle Nuit was 4:3 but didn't make any mention of the frequency bursts being that way. I'd suggest an update to the document to reflect that.

Regarding the flicker, I'll have to do some more experimenting to see what's up. Just to be clearer, flicker is perhaps not the best term. The images are stable and then there is what looks like a glitch for a frame or two. I wouldn't be surprised if it's at the transition from the last frame to the first.

I having tried playing around with the TT de-interlacing modes yet, which will be the next thing.

Just out of curiousity, what frame rate are the test patterns encoded at? I haven't seen any mention of that in the thread or the documentation.

Thanks for the update regarding full fields. Please keep in mind that there are other reasons as well for having full fields besides auto-iris calibration. There is a reason that VE, DVE and Avia have both full fields and windows that those discs were made well before auto-iris features existed.

Also, regarding auto-iris calibration patterns for a *future* update - I have some feedback for you on this. Based on my experience calibrating a few auto-iris pjs, what would be helpful would be to have 4 difference sized patterns for each IRE step of varying size.

For instance, you know what I mean when I say full field and window. So I'd like to introduce 2 new sizes. For discussion purposes let's call them "large window" and "tiny window".

"Large window" would be basically the size of a 4:3 screen within a 16:9 field. So picture putting up a 20 IRE pattern that looked like 4:3 content with black side bars on a 16:9 projector.

"Tiny window" would be basically the size of about 1 checkerboard square from an ANSI checkboard pattern - perhaps a bit bigger - maybe about 150% or possibly 200% the size of one of those squares just so it was easier to target with a meter.

So then within an auto-iris calibration menu you could organize it like this:

10 IRE Tiny Window
10 IRE Window (normal window size)
10 IRE Large Window (4:3 size in 16:9 frame)
10 IRE full field

20 IRE Tiny Window
20 IRE Window (normal window size)
20 IRE Large Window (4:3 size in 16:9 frame)
20 IRE full field

and so forth up to 100 IRE.

I'd have to think about it a bit more, but it may be beneficial to alternatively organize the above like this:

10 IRE Tiny Window
20 IRE Tiny Window
...
100 IRE Tiny Window

and then repeat for Regular Window, Large Window and full field like that. I'll keep this in mind for consideration as I do more calibration work on the auto-iris.

The reason why this is needed, as touched on briefly in a previous post, is that as the APL gets lower, the pj's increases the gain of the whites when in auto-iris mode. This way a particlar IRE such as 100 remains just as bright even though the iris is closing down on a lower APL scene.

An unfortunate side effect is that, if not calibrated correctly, there can be a noticeable color shift at the upper when displayed in lower APL scenes vs. higher APL scenes. With proper calibration, at least on the Ruby, you can find a sweet spot where you are at D65 with dE of 0-3 at all those size patterns mentioned above across 10-100 IRE. This is how you know you have the grayscale spot on for an auto-iris pj.

jvincent -- That sounds like a hiccup in the DVD drive, or in TT (less likely) in stepping from one test pattern to the next.

lovingdvd -- That's a usefull input for Scott, thanks. Those kinds of test pattern additions sound like a something for the next revision ("if he chooses to accept the assignment" - :cool:.

I didn't think a concensous was reached on teh best way to deal with a DI calibration and an active iris. You are the first I've seen to brush an outline, although I've not been watching for one either. Is thre some concensous on this? I dont' see how one could do it unless the device has the abilit to remember RGB settings at every level and iris setting.

Lets take an example so I understand. Conside a 50% gray. You'd have tiny, medium, large, and full. Full at 75% still isnt' a high APL, it's 50%. So I'd think one woudl need a screen with the center window of the desider color. The "border" woudl have to be calculate to give different APL's not window sizes. FOr example a border that when averages with the window pattern being displayed would give maybe 25, 25, 75, and 90 APL. Low and high levels woudl require complicated level averages to get a desired apl, and some couldn't be obtained easily.

But even afteer all that, all you woudl buy with the 4 patterns per level woudl be the ability to take a measurment in one of 4 places and see which was worse/better. Choosing that settign, and move onto the next. Can't change anything there cause it willhose the previous measurment. Unless the device has a 20 point RGB curve. etc.

I don't believe it's anywhere near as simple as you think it is. If someoen can convince me otherwise - in a separate thread, I'd be ore than happy to make the patterns and add them.

Excuse worse than normal typo's have to hurry... S

On rescanning a question comes to mind.. what are you using that accurately measures RGB at 10IRE? Most folks dont' have a PR850 on hand. Colorfacts probes damn sure won't do it IMO, I have a CA-6X that is pressed at 20 IMO. I have a Greytag McBeth EyeOne pro thta might do it with Accucal, but I haven't tried yet.

jvincent -- That sounds like a hiccup in the DVD drive, or in TT (less likely) in stepping from one test pattern to the next.

I did some more testing and I am still baffled.

One thing we can rule out is the DVD drive since I am playing this off of my hard drive.

There's definitely something funny going on with de-interlacing since the behaviour is different depending on how exactly the following are set up:

DXVA on/off, Film/video de-interlacing, NVPP on/off, .....

I need to build myself a table and figure out what's going on here.

FWIW, I'm using an ATI 9700 Pro with the latest drivers.

I found a couple of other things.

1. The frequency bursts appear to be encoded as 4:3, at least that is what TT detects.

2. There are several patterns that "flicker" every couple of seconds when they are up. It's most noticeable on the Bell Nuit pattern, but I also see it many of the static patterns as well. I haven't gone through them all but it's happening on: Overscan, Y/C delay, colour ramps, frequency bursts for sure.

Hi guys,

Claus -This is the same thing I experienced (flicker), that you tried to help me on.

I have the same problem, that I did my best to explain in a prior post and Claus had tried to help me, but nothing has helped. He was thinking it was how it was recorded, but I have used several programs and media with the same result. I am using the Oppo dvd player. What player do you have JVincent?

OK, back from some more investigation.

yarrumc, I'm using a HTPC connected to my HDTV. My DVD player S/W is the latest (v.2.2) of TheaterTek.

So here's my latest findings.

When DXVA is enabled I get the worst glitches. When in Auto or Film deinterlacing mode I see the full resolution but the duration of the glitch is the longest. When it is glitching the resolution bars go completely black and white. Ugh.

Video mode (forcing bob) removes the glitches at the expense of resolution.

If I disable DXVA, the duration of the glitch is much shorter in auto/film mode. It's only just noticeable and the resolution fields never go white/black. Video mode has the same behaviour as with DXVA.

So, with full speculation mode on, I am guessing that the behaviour has something to do with the way the frames are encoded and my particular configuration doesn't like the transition from the last frame of the pattern back to the first frame.

It may be a speed thing. The way the DVD is encoded is it is several frames for each pattern. Most are 30 or 60 frames. At the end of the last frame is a chapter point. The end action of the chapter point is to play the chapter again. FWIW, My PC (not a HTPC) does it seamlessly with Power DVD and WinDVD. The frames are encoded progressive. If it were a deinterlacing problem you'd see it in the lipsync pattern. The animated patterns are the longest between chapter repeats. SOme of the pro level discs do it the same way. One can actually have a one frame sequence in the DVD spec, but I don't use it.

Well guys, everything was looking smooth. Almost done with my additions and edits fo the instructions. Now I've come across a fly in the porridge.

A friend did some automated grayscale runs for me on his Progressive Labs System. He compared it to Avia Pro and found all was well except the gamma looked slightly different. We got together and I investigated.

Turns out Avia uses IRE units, and DVE uses % units. These are NOT the same thing. IRE is really a misnomer for a DVD since it's a voltage measurment, but many things still use it. One can assume soem things and make IRE work, which is what Avia does. The problem is AVIA 30IRE = digital level 69, while DVE uses % amplitude divisions and 30% = digital level 82. Good bit different. These converge at the upper end because 100IRE=100%=235 digital.

Here's the link to learn about IRE, voltage, stimulus, Video Levels, etc.:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4969789&&#post4969789

Here's a new thread I created to discuss the differences, or at least point them out:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7044635&&#post7044635

Currently my disc is in the same camp as DVE, using percentage based increments. The problem is some software, my own Progressive Labs included, is expecting IRE based increments. This will casue gamma measurment errors. This is the only error it will casue, adn only if one is using the software expecting IRE based divisions instead of % based. Nothing huge, but this disc is all about being perfect.

Don't have a colorimeter?, then this won't make one hair of difference to you. Ditto if your colorimeter expects % based gray increments.

The only real soultion is to have both on the disc, but I expect that will confuse the hell out of a lot of folks. I'm considering what to do. Just don't know.

Always something...

Cheers,
Scott

Thanks for the explanation Scott.

Sounds like this is a "Don't worry about it" situation, although it did show me that S/W decoding is better than DXVA.

jvincent -- FYI, I used Nero 7 Ultra, Recode, to write a DVD. I then play the DVD in my: (1) laptop (ATI mobile Radeon with the default S/W) using WinDVD 5 (I haven't installed Version 7 yet); or (2) my desktop (ATI 9600xt with Catalyst Version 9) also using WinDVD 5; or (3) my RP91 DVD player I do not get any "glitches" anywhere.

I haven't figured out how to write a DVD (from Scott's Video_TS files) to my hard drive that isn't in a Nero exclusive format (or I may just try it, if I can figure out where Nero puts the file). I may have to break down an get CloneDVD 2 to see if it will write a DVD to my HD, in mpeg-2 format (or see if my copy of WinDVD Creator 2 will do it).

It sure sounds like a hiccup somewhere in the coding process, when going between screens. What did you use to write the TS files to your HD?

Scott, I responded to your other thread (AVIA Pro vs. DVE Pro). I'll see what I can put together, on the side, from a documentation standpoint (guessing what you might do). You're right, this is becoming quite a project. From what you've said, concerning my "Instructions" becoming more of a manual, I'll see what I can do with expanded descriptions, hopefully that will lighten your load (at least a little :rolleyes: ). Then we have the DI full screen gray patterns to consider too (from lovingdvd's input).

I haven't figured out how to write a DVD (from Scott's Video_TS files) to my hard drive that isn't in a Nero exclusive format (or I may just try it, if I can figure out where Nero puts the file). I may have to break down an get CloneDVD 2 to see if it will write a DVD to my HD, in mpeg-2 format (or see if my copy of WinDVD Creator 2 will do it).

It sure sounds like a hiccup somewhere in the coding process, when going between screens. What did you use to write the TS files to your HD?


For TT, all I did was create a folder called GetGray and placed the TS folders in it. I just point TT at the folder and it plays as if it were in a drive.

I should probably try burning a DVD to see if there's a difference.

That's not really needed, IMHO, since the "Brightness" test pattern has -2% to +2%, and the gray window test patterns, let you check out the gray scale from end to end, one step at a time. The existing ramps let you check the whole range (the 70% to 100% region is just as important as the 0% to 30%). That may be something Scott can consider in the next revision.


Well, the -2% to +2% is good but does not go quite high enough and the 'one step at a time' does not work for me. You have to go back and forth and is hard to visualize subtle shade changes.

All you documentation requestors:

First I must again thank Claus (CT_Wiebe) for creating the original "Get Gray Instruction" document. It has provided many of you the basic information you desired about the disc. It has provided me a clean, excellent framework in which to add my input, and edits. The final document would have been far, far more difficult without Claus's work. For that matter, it's likely my original would not have been nearly as spiffy. Those of you who have followed along from the beginning know my original intent was to provide the nitty gritty technical details in a text file and be done. Thanks again to Claus for the framework and outstanding start which helped emmensly.

That said, I have finished my first run at my additions and edits to Claus's excellent "instruction" document. My version has some polishing to do, actually a list of things to fix, change, edit, etc. But I think it's clean enough to post this draft for those anxious to see what my input would be. It has gone from 8 to 21 pages, clearly I have added more than I originally intended. It is still not an instruction document per se, although it does have some instructions for patterns that are usable by what I refer to as "technically inclined users". This would include brightness, contrast, Color, and Tint.

I have also included explanations on several of the patterns where the use, purpose, or even the reason I have them on the disc was misunderstood. These short descriptions for said patterns should clear that up. Some of the patterns have some information behind the reasons they do what they do. I have indicated in many pattern's information/descriptions when a colorimeter is needed to actually use the pattern.

I have adjusted the "tone" of the document to be more along the lines of addressing a calibrator, hopefully without alienating a "technically inclined user". It is not that I made it "technical", just a little different in the way it addresses the reader.

I have moved and consolidated some of the warnings so they are at the document beginning. I have removed some warnings like what to do when you are in a service mode since I've added comments that essentially say "you have no business in the service mode" :). Obviously those that know what they are doing will ignore that warning, but those that don’t should take heed. And I'm not giving any encouragement or dangling carrots so they might go explore and screw up their display.

It still does not tell someone how to do a calibration. It does explain what I consider the fundamental adjustments and how to do them (briefly).

http://www.calibrate.tv/GetGrayCalDisc5-1cDraft1.zip (approx 775Kb)

Comments welcome. I'm going to bounce it off Claus who started this baby and get his help proofing it as I clean it.

Got it! I'll take a look at it, but it may be a couple of days until I can get back with a clean-up. I had addressed it more towards the non-calibrator, since I had assumed that calibrators would know what to do with the patterns. I'm interested to see your inputs, but that will have to wait until tomorrow (later today ;) ).

NOTE: Scott, I assume that you'll email the DOC format version (zipped would be preferred) for clean-up -- I did a quick scan of the PDF and it looks good except for some minor editing corrections. I'll have a better idea once I get a chance to go through it carefully.

For anyone needing a Blue Filter quickly, try this: Go to your local Circut City and ask them for a TV setup kit. These come bundled with every TV CC sells. It contains a psuedo calibration disc with patters that look like they come from AVIA, and also contain a Blue Filter. I was told that the stores have hundreds of these in drawers, as they remove them from returns...to them (the store I went to) they just hand them out. Anyone else ever try this?

Currently my disc is in the same camp as DVE, using percentage based increments. The problem is some software, my own Progressive Labs included, is expecting IRE based increments. This will casue gamma measurment errors. This is the only error it will casue, adn only if one is using the software expecting IRE based divisions instead of % based. Nothing huge, but this disc is all about being perfect.

Don't have a colorimeter?, then this won't make one hair of difference to you. Ditto if your colorimeter expects % based gray increments.I'm using SpyderTV xyY readings together with rader's spreadsheet. Would this affect me?

Don't know. Ask Bill (usra) over in the Spyder TV thread. He probably knows. Or on the thrad dealing with Radar's xls.

Don't know. Ask Bill (usra) over in the Spyder TV thread. He probably knows. Or on the thrad dealing with Radar's xls.
IF Ursa = Rader Then
Support = True
Else
Support = False
End If

(The answer is "sort of")

:D

Hello Scott...

I just joined the download ranks and I think your no refund policy is very fair.

I also just picked up the CA-6X and I'm glad you have added the automation for Cliff's software.

The cost of one night's pizza for the family is certainly a very easy price to pay for your hard work. Thanks for your efforts as well as the other AVS folks who have contributed to the project.

cheers

RJ
...

I didn't think a concensous was reached on teh best way to deal with a DI calibration and an active iris. You are the first I've seen to brush an outline, although I've not been watching for one either. Is thre some concensous on this? I dont' see how one could do it unless the device has the abilit to remember RGB settings at every level and iris setting.

Lets take an example so I understand. Conside a 50% gray. You'd have tiny, medium, large, and full. Full at 75% still isnt' a high APL, it's 50%. So I'd think one woudl need a screen with the center window of the desider color. The "border" woudl have to be calculate to give different APL's not window sizes. FOr example a border that when averages with the window pattern being displayed would give maybe 25, 25, 75, and 90 APL. Low and high levels wouldl require complicated level averages to get a desired apl, and some couldn't be obtained easily.

But even afteer all that, all you woudl buy with the 4 patterns per level woudl be the ability to take a measurment in one of 4 places and see which was worse/better. Choosing that settign, and move onto the next. Can't change anything there cause it willhose the previous measurment. Unless the device has a 20 point RGB curve. etc.

I don't believe it's anywhere near as simple as you think it is. If someoen can convince me otherwise - in a separate thread, I'd be ore than happy to make the patterns and add them.

Excuse worse than normal typo's have to hurry... S

Your points are very logical. After all, if there is color shifting going on with the DI on high APLs but not low APLs, how could you possible have it calibrated correctly with both - that is the logical question.

The answer is that YOU CAN. I know it doesn't make sense. When I was first taught how to do this I posed the same question. What it comes down to though is that, at least with the Ruby, you can obtain a D65 calibration with a dE between 0-3 from 20-100 IRE at varying APLs and in auto iris mode.

To do this, you must go back and forth between full views and windows at the same IRE to find the perfect balance, then repeat at different IREs. Yes, believe it or not you can do this with just the service menu's gain/bias controls.

That being said, there are some affordable external processors like the Lumagen that allow you to set gain/offsets at 10 IRE steps. This is NOT necessary, but having it makes the whole process even easier and could likely get you D65 with a dE of 0-1 from 10-100 IRE. Bottom line though is that in either case these patterns are needed.

Since my last post on the subject I have calibrated again, and in the process paid particular attention to the ordering that worked best during the calibration so I could report it here.

I found that it would work best to do all set of 4 patterns for each IRE like this:

10 IRE Tiny Window
10 IRE Window (normal window size)
10 IRE Large Window (4:3 size in 16:9 frame)
10 IRE full field

20 IRE Tiny Window
20 IRE Window (normal window size)
20 IRE Large Window (4:3 size in 16:9 frame)
20 IRE full field

... up to 100 IRE.

Rather than going 10-100 at Tiny Window, then 10-100 at normal Window etc.

These patterns would definately be useful. It is still a new technique and one that will see refinements I'm sure. These patterns would be great to start with. Over time others may suggest new patterns or modifications as we learn more. Basically I can do this now but I have to switch back and forth between VE and DVE to do it. Very cumbersome.

On rescanning a question comes to mind.. what are you using that accurately measures RGB at 10IRE? Most folks dont' have a PR850 on hand. Colorfacts probes damn sure won't do it IMO, I have a CA-6X that is pressed at 20 IMO. I have a Greytag McBeth EyeOne pro thta might do it with Accucal, but I haven't tried yet.

I recently got a SpyderTV meter to go along with my ColorFacts so I could read very low light levels - as the EyeOne I have it not good for that at all.

I found that if you use the STV meter and put it a few feet away from the pj and point it directly in the lens, you CAN read 10 IRE consistently and accurately. One trick though is that you must train the STV to be like the EyeOne or it'll be off about 300-500K across the entire grayscale.

From what I've gathered the EyeOne is more accurate in this regard, which is why I trained the STV to it. This gives you the accuracy of the EyeOne in the grayscale, but with the low light reading abilities and sensitivity of the STV.

Remember, the trick is to aim the STV directly into the pj from just a few feet away. According to DataColor STV should be used to read off the screen. I had lousy results that way and it couldn't read much below 30. Pointing it at the screen turned things around in a hurry.

For reference, IIRC, I was reading about 0.6 cd/m2 at 10 IRE. If your pj puts out a lot less lumens however you may not be able to read 10 IRE even with this technique, as I think about 0.5-0.6 cd/m2 is about as low as you may be able to get good readings from.

For reference, IIRC, I was reading about 0.6 cd/m2 at 10 IRE. If your pj puts out a lot less lumens however you may not be able to read 10 IRE even with this technique, as I think about 0.5-0.6 cd/m2 is about as low as you may be able to get good readings from.
I can generally get believable results from my STV at about 0.2 cd/m^2 if I increase the read time to 9 seconds.

I just thought of one thing that would be really useful to those of us in the HTPC space. Apologies in advance if I've messed up the numbering.

The DVD is authored assuming BT.601 colour space for NTSC DVD playback.

How about an equivalent set of patterns that were done in BT.709 for HDTV colour space calibration?

Right now properly setting up an HDTV input is somewhat of a crap shoot for the tweakers amongst us and presumably with an HTPC we should be able to get the correct output to allow us to calibrate both DVD and HDTV inputs on the display.

Is there an AUDIO_TS folder to be had somewhere? I assume no since it was not in the 5.1c zip folder.AUDIO_TS folders are empty on modern DVD's and are only used with burning programs to provide backwards compatibility with typically older players. One can add a AUDIO_TS folder if they wish, just add the empty folder to the structure and burn.

Claus and I have been colaborating on the documentation revisions. We are on about revision 4 going back and forth betwen us tweaking. It's been going very well I think and I believe we'll have a nicely polished document in the near future.

10 IRE Tiny Window
10 IRE Window (normal window size)
10 IRE Large Window (4:3 size in 16:9 frame)
10 IRE full field

20 IRE Tiny Window
20 IRE Window (normal window size)
20 IRE Large Window (4:3 size in 16:9 frame)
20 IRE full field
Hmmm. I get your point but am frankly still skeptical as to whether the work of creating 80 patterns is worth the trouble.

I don't want to take this thread on a Ruby tangent since it's the only thing that can do this feat that I know of, but if you will start a new thread called "Gray Pattern Requests for Calibrationg The Rubys DI" in this forum, I have some questions and will participate to see where it takes us. If we come to any sort of concensous and there is more than one interested, we'll see about cranking out a sample set. OK?

I have a new document draft loaded on the website. It is still a work in progress and as I am good at demonstrating, it probably has a typo or 2 in it ;). Claus and I have been working pretty hard back and forth with it. It looks pretty good thanks to our combined efforts if I say so myself. It is linked on the main page so it is available for public downlaod for anyone contributors or not. Comments, constructive criticism welcome as always.

The final disc will have rolling credits like any other movie's credits. I plan to list some names/ids of those who helped with the project one way or another. The credits currently read:

A special thanks those that provided support,
information, education, or inspiration for this DVD

C Weibe
B Sorel
C Wiggles
Ursa
V Dias
Dr_1394
J Meier
O LaOr
J White
All the AVS Beta Testers


If anyone on the list would like to not be on it, please let me know privately or pubically and I will promptly remove you.

If I have something listed that is not what you would prefer (i.e. full name vs alias), let me know I will change it.

If you pitched in and I forgot or missed you, my apologies, let me know.

Best, Scott

The final disc will have rolling credits like any other movie's credits. I plan to list some names/ids of those who helped with the project one way or another. The credits currently read:

All credit well deserved!

And you said "FINAL DISC"! That, and attention to credits, says we are close to gold!

Scott, you have another DOC update.

Also, thanks for the credit :D, but I would like you to correct the spelling of my name :rolleyes: It's "i" before "e" except after "c" = Wiebe (the "C" in my first name doesn't count - LOL). I know that keyboard dislexia can be habit forming :o, I have it on occasion too. One of my bosses always did the same thing, but then I was getting paid :eek: (just kidding).

I have a new document draft loaded on the website. It is still a work in progress and as I am good at demonstrating, it probably has a typo or 2 in it ;). Claus and I have been working pretty hard back and forth with it. It looks pretty good thanks to our combined efforts if I say so myself.Well, what to say, it is definitely looking good. Hats off to both of you. :)
Still waiting for my Crystalio II before embarking on the end all be all calibration process but, in the meantime, it's a pleasure to see this shaping up so well. :)

Scott, you have another DOC update.

Also, thanks for the credit :D, but I would like you to correct the spelling of my name :rolleyes: It's "i" before "e" except after "c" = Wiebe (the "C" in my first name doesn't count - LOL). I know that keyboard dislexia can be habit forming :o, I have it on occasion too. One of my bosses always did the same thing, but then I was getting paid :eek: (just kidding).

My fingers have been known to suffer from dyslexia just as GetGray's do. But you know what's worse than having this problem displayed on a keyboard, how bout an old rotory phone. Fingers get dyslexic there and you get the wrong number. Your only recourse is to tell the person on the other end you must have stuck your finger in the wrong hole. That always end the conversation pretty well.

Scott, you have another DOC update.

Also, thanks for the credit :D, but I would like you to correct the spelling of my name :rolleyes: It's "i" before "e" except after "c" = Wiebe (the "C" in my first name doesn't count - LOL). I know that keyboard dislexia can be habit forming :o, I have it on occasion too. One of my bosses always did the same thing, but then I was getting paid :eek: (just kidding).


However, that rule doesn't apply in German where "weibe" = "woman" ;)

No "e" on the end of that: wife = Weib. My name is of Dutch origin anyway. In german, it would be pronounced "Vee-ba", not "Vib-a" (= weibe).

But this is WAY off topic!

I have tried to follow this thread all the way thru. I have ordered and will recieve my first DLP TV. It should arrive within the week. Is yours the disk for me? Realizing that most of what you folks have posted is Wayyyy over my head. I am getting a Samsung HL-R5078W and want it to look good so to that end I have read that calibration is necessary out of the box. I am a complete novice in this field.
Thank you for all your efforts in this endevour and time...

I have tried to follow this thread all the way thru. I have ordered and will recieve my first DLP TV. It should arrive within the week. Is yours the disk for me? Realizing that most of what you folks have posted is Wayyyy over my head. I am getting a Samsung HL-R5078W and want it to look good so to that end I have read that calibration is necessary out of the box. I am a complete novice in this field.
Thank you for all your efforts in this endevour and time...


I'd say yes this cal disc may be for you. But it also depends on how capable of learning you are. Go get a copy of GetGrays' literature that has some instructions and general purpose info on this tool. If it looks like you can follow the info then yes the disc is for you. I too am nearly lost when it comes to proper cal of any screen. I've always simply tweaked the settings to my liking. I was able to make use of his disc with minimal instructions at the time. I'm simply awaiting what he feels to be the last improvement then I'll start all over.. even if I don't need to. You'll be amazed how much difference his disc can make.
http://www.calibrate.tv/GetGrayCalDisc5-1cDraft1.zip

bigmack71 -- Welcome to the AVS Forum. Congratulations on your purchase. Calibration will help you get the maximum performance out of your display. If you find that the instructions "are over your head", then you might want to get the AVIA "Guide to Home Theater" DVD, it has more "hand-holding". However, it can be a bit overwhelming too. You will also need a "blue" filter. There are some suggestions in the "instructions", see Appendix A (in the latest version, see below).

NOTE: No questions are dumb. They just reflect a lack of knowledge and their are 2 ways to get the answers: (1) read up on the subject, and (2) ask questions.

You should go to http://www.calibrate.tv/ to get the latest version (Draft #6) of the "instructions" :cool:. Scroll to the bottom of the page. If the latest version of the instructions seem to be understandable to you, then by all means get the GetGray caldisc, it is easier to use than AVIA (but I'm experienced in using it). If you do have some questions, feel free to send me a PM, and I might be able to answer some of your questions (we were all noobs at one time :D).

rbbnet -- Just curious as to why you pointed our new member to the older version of the instructions? You should get the latest one too.

rbbnet -- Just curious as to why you pointed our new member to the older version of the instructions? You should get the latest one too.

Sorry... I simply scrolled back a few messages having remembered a link there. I haven't been following the progress of this thread nor yours and Getgray's work. I kept up sorta until version 5.0b and just came back in the last few to see where things were now. Lastly, I figured if he could fathom those instructions then he could make use of the disc. Either way I think we gave him the same end results... if you can follow the instructions then yes indeed this is for you.

Scott - I played with the disc for the first time and wanted to give you Kudos on the project. Lots of hard work and it shows.

I hope that you will very soon add at least the full field windows we've discussed. It is critical for my calibration needs and the disc is not complete with these patterns. Patterns for more specific dynamic iris calibration can be done later of course but the full fields are a basic essential as the major discs has them.

My main motivation in donating was to support your great work and to eliminate having to go back and forth between VE and DVE for different patterns. Unfortunately without the full fields I still have to switch back and forth between your disc and DVE to get the full fields (and even at that I'm still stuck with just the 20 step full fields from DVE).

Thanks and keep up the great work!

My main motivation in donating was to support your great work and to eliminate having to go back and forth between VE and DVE for different patterns. Unfortunately without the full fields I still have to switch back and forth between your disc and DVE to get the full fields (and even at that I'm still stuck with just the 20 step full fields from DVE).



One solution. Since you own both GetGray and DVE, you could always use DVDShrink (or your favourite DVD editing tool) to create a "merged" disc with the DVE patterns after the GetGray ones.

Navigation would be a bit of a pain, but better than swapping discs.

Can that be done without losing any detail/resolution?

How much of this thread do I need to read before knowing what I am doing with the disc? ...or are the instructions at the website for getgray enough?

I have a Hitachi TX200 :)

Creating a merged disk will not cause any loss as long as your are copying 1x1. There should be plenty of room to do this on a standard DVD.

Regarding you question about what to read before using the disk. I would read the instructions first and read the thread on calibration. This disk is usually for people experienced with calibration. It does have very useful patterns not found on other disks.

Sorry I haven't kept up with this thread. For those experiencing an occasional "flicker" in the patterns with an Oppo, this is normal. I get the same flicker with certain patterns in Avia Pro as well. It's just a processing issue with the Oppo.

Great work on the disk and documentation BTW! It's now my standard for setting black and white level in calibrations.

I think DVE is dual layer and larger than a single disk? What you could do is just use the test pattern portion as that's under 2gig IIRC.

Gary

Yep, just like a previous post mentioned, I am just talking about adding whatever useful DVE test patterns there are to a disc including the Get Gray material.

The GetGray CalDisc is only about 375 MB on the DVD (est. less than 400 MB once everything gets finished), so there is plenty of room to add some other patterns, if you wish. The problem will be to get access to the added patterns, and you'll need a video editor for that (needs to write video transport streams in the VOB format).

It's not recommended, of course, but you're free to do it, afterall you paid for the DVD files and it's your nickle if you make a mistake. Doing so also violates the copyright agreements that you made when you purchased the calibration DVDs (GetGray and DVE).

Thanks Mike. I thought you might like it (I was wondering if you had tried it). I found it was both quicker and easier to use than AVIA (and definitely quicker than DVE) and more accurate to boot - provided you know what you're doing (and that you do!):D.

lovingdvd – Your concern for adding test patterns for calibrating the grayscale on DI enabled displays (like yours) is appreciated. However, the GetGray DVD is very accurate for what it does. To keep in the same vein, the correct pattern requirements needed for calibration of DI displays must be determined and the tests patterns specified.

If you would start a new thread asking for inputs to establish these requirements and specifications, then we (GetGray, et al) can develop the necessary patterns. So far, you seem to be the only AVS member that has made any specific recommendations. More is needed, hopefully from members involved in ISF calibration of DI enabled displays, before such specifications and requirements can be finalized.

The sooner this is done, the sooner the requisite patterns can be developed and added to the GetGray Caldisc DVD files. Since you are the one who is doing the primary asking, you’re elected to get the information :cool:.

Remember, the video calibration pattern requirements have been established and have undergone over 30 years of development. The use of DI, to expand perceived CR for fixed pixel displays, is very new, by comparison. Hopefully, it won’t take anywhere near that long to establish requirements for correct DI grayscale calibration.

I loaded the disk and the menu comes up fine. When I enter the selection for brightness & contrast, I just default to the standard DVD audio/video blue screen on my Panasonic S97. It keeps doing that. It's connected via HDMI to an Optoma H78DC3 projector.

I am getting the color screens coming up and also got the whole gray scale 1 to 235 screen came up. I'm not clear on that gray screen how you should adjust it with the bars. I just tried to follow the general setup suggestion to keep the visible distinction of the lines. I didn't understand the boundary reference.

Am I missing something on the Brightness and contrast settings loading? Nothing comes up after repeated attempts on my Optoma H78DC3 via HDMI.

(The adjustment in the contrast and brightness settings does seem to have produced a nice improvement to the contrast ratio.)

romanesq -- I'm a little confused with your question. You said that the Brightness & Contrast test patterns didn't come up, but then you followed that with statements that imply that you ran through all of those adjustments. At the opening screen, you need to hit the "Play" button. You step through the test patterns in each menu using the "Next" button. The "Title" or "Menu" buttons can be used to get to the "Root" menu.
{Just a repeat of what you should already know.}

Have you read the latest version of the "Instructions" (on the calibrate.tv site)? It does explain how to use the Black (Brightness) and White (Contrast) test patterns. Send me a PM if you still have problems (you might have made a bad DVD and may need to make another copy - see http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=613686 for questions on burning the DVD (the media is important, but so is burning at too high a speed). Also, DVD-R discs work better than DVD+R. You might want to unzip a new set of files (you might have lost one of the Video_TS files too).

Well, I could always just stick the DVE test patterns on another DVD. I can backup the patterns, technically, but as to copyrights, I don't know. Anyhow, I have a 5 disc player, so it shouldn't be a problem doing one and then the other... :)

You could stick AVIA in a third slot and play calibration "Russian Roulette" :D. With the HQV disc in a 4th slot, you could really do it up right :eek:.

Not a big deal but, I was wondering if Scott was planning to include a blue filter with the final disks? Lee sells very inexpensive filter sheets that could be cut up. That is what I think AVIA is doing. Lee will send anyone a filter swatch book that contains many filters in it. I would hope that CT_Wiebe or Scott would get one and post the best filters to use from the swatch book. There are several hundred filters in the swatch book and many shades of blue. The swatch size is the same size as is included on the AVIA disk. Who knows Lee may even have them already cut up.

I do realize that there is information on how to get filters in the instructions for the disk but It might be nice to include them if it is possible. I own the THX glasses but I others have often had trouble getting the right filter. It took me 3 weeks and 4 phone calls to get the glasses. The cost of a 24"x24" sheet of deep blue from Lee has a MSP price of $6.95. There would be enough material to last a lifetime on one sheet. They could also easily be cut with any paper cutter. I bet that is what AVIA does.

heheh..yeah, well the idea is to save $ so since I already bought DVE I'll just stick with that and getgray for now :)

rwestley -- Scott (GetGray) is not planning on including filters (at this time), since that incurs shipping and handling costs as well as extra purchasing costs. The DVD files can be downloaded over the Internet with only handling costs. I believe he is considering the possibility (as an extra cost option), but not for right now. The sources are given in the “Instructions” (see the latest version on his www.calibrate.tv site - at the bottom of the page).

I don’t have the Lee Filter swatch book, but I may get it and see what they supply. If and when I get it, I’ll be able to tell you. For the blue filter, you want the one closest to #47B (which should be included), I assume that they’re labeled.

I’m planning on using the filters supplied with my AVIA or DVE (I want to compare the two anyway).

Thanks CT Wiebe for your post. I just edited my first post after checking Lee filter swatch book. The filter recommeded by Scott is deep blue 120. There is one in the book that can be taken out. A 24"x24" sheet is only $6.95MSP. I hope you do ask Lee for the swatch book. It has many other interesting filters that may be useful. They will send it to you for no cost with the current catalogue. The size of the filters are the same that come with AVIA or are included with the CC store disk.

Hi guys,
Some colorimeters (dtp92 for example), seem to work better with full screen patterns rather than windowed patterns. That is the main reason that I bought DVE (when I already had VE and SVHTTU). Having a repeat of the windowed patterns as unwindowed (actually fullscreen without the text), or probably better an interleaving of windowed followed by full screen would be really important to me.

Best,
jeff

I must need to unsub and resub to the thread. I didn't get any notificaiton of posts and go look manually and I see I'm behind!
Great work on the disk and documentation BTW! It's now my standard for setting black and white level in calibrations.Thanks and very glad to hear it's useful!
Yep, just like a previous post mentioned, I am just talking about adding whatever useful DVE test patterns there are to a disc including the Get Gray material. Technically one can use DVD shrink etc. to do it but you will hose your (my)menus. And the navigation is the core reason for making the disc. Kinda defeats the purpose or part of it anyway.
Not a big deal but, I was wondering if Scott was planning to include a blue filter with the final disks? Lee sells very inexpensive filter sheets that could be cut up. That is what I think AVIA is doing. Lee will send anyone a filter swatch book that contains many filters in it. I would hope that CT_Wiebe or Scott would get one and post the best filters to use from the swatch book. There are several hundred filters in the swatch book and many shades of blue. The swatch size is the same size as is included on the AVIA disk. Who knows Lee may even have them already cut up.

I do realize that there is information on how to get filters in the instructions for the disk but It might be nice to include them if it is possible. I own the THX glasses but I others have often had trouble getting the right filter. It took me 3 weeks and 4 phone calls to get the glasses. The cost of a 24"x24" sheet of deep blue from Lee has a MSP price of $6.95. There would be enough material to last a lifetime on one sheet. They could also easily be cut with any paper cutter. I bet that is what AVIA does. Yes, eventually I plan to get a source for Blue Filters. But probably not too soon. I'm not geared up for shipping DVD's although mailing out filters woudln't be nearly as involved obviously. My first choice would be to persuade THX into hooking me up with some from them or their supplier. I doubt they like fooling with it, and I'd take some load off them. Maybe. Second choice would be the simple film filters. What's your Lee source, direct? Have their website? I'll see what I can do.

I have a release candidate ready except for one technical documentation issue I want to revisit (doing so offline).

Progressive Labs is making an addition to their software to allow the selection of IRE or % Amplitude calibration disc levels. This will make it 100% compatible with the GetGray DVD. Therefore I will not be making an IRE unit grayscale set (which if you didn't catch or didn't know is different than a %amplitude unit pattern set). This woudl have just confused beginners anyway I think. I do plan to complete a brief Appendix on the subject as a reference.

Thanks Scott for your great disk and informative post. I doubt that THX would be interested in selling you the filters since they plan to come out with their own new disk. I had enough trouble getting a few filters from them. I think that you will find that Lee will be more than happy to work with you. They sent me the swatch book in a few days and were very helpful. You might want to give them a call when your are ready. Their deep blue filter is the one you recommended and there is one in the their free filter book. There are also about 200 others filters in their small swatch book.

Thanks again for all your work.

http://www.leefiltersusa.com/

I don't know if it got lost, but is there an interest in including full screen versions of the windowed grayscale patterns. You include that and I'll definitely buy it.

jeff

*IF* I did it, I wouldn't want to interleave them becasue I for one would only use the window patterns and would want an uninterrupted "run" from 0 to 100 without having to skip. They would definately be their own sequence. Maybe a 5% step (only) sequence of fullscreen gray. No 10% set. Or, maybe a interleaved (window/full) sequence of 10% steps (20 patterns). I'll think about it. I still think their use is limited or would be a minority need.

Thanks for considering it GetGray. I think you're right to have it it's own sequence. 20 patterns (10%steps) is more than enough. 10 would be sufficient.

Thanks,
jeff

greeno -- That's interesting since I got the impression that lovingdvd considers that even 10% steps, full field, is not enough. But then, it looks like you would want it for colorimeter measurements with your dtp92 (?) whereas he wants it for setting his auto-iris (DI) performance. Those are two different requirements.

Scott, since this is a "minority" requirement, maybe the best compromise would be a set of 5% full field gray patterns in the Miscellaneous menu group. It seems to me to be the easiest compromise, "if you choose to accept the assignment" {- Mission Impossible :rolleyes:}.

CT_Wiebe,
that is exactly what I want it for - grayscale. If someone needs finer spacing 5%, but still fullfield, that would work for me also. I'd just use the FWD button on the remote ;-).

By the way, I did look through the patterns and IMO you guys are definitely filling an important void, in the test disc market and meeting your design right on. Great job to you all.

Best,
jeff

On PDA so typing worse than norm. OK, I give, I will *probably* add a full field set but it will/would be where its supposed to be, under gray patts. One set, full field,5%. That be sufficient for lvngdvd?

I contributed and got GetGray's disc yesterday. I burnt the files 3 different times but could not get the bars in the black level test pattern to show on my player. after awhile I realized my player/dvr was on interlace mode. Once I switched to progressive mode the bars appeared (atleast 2 of them). Unfortunately then I realized for sure my LCD (Sharp 26D7U) will not display below video black (kinda figured this due to the lack of the below black bar displaying on DVE's patterns).

You might want to consider putting a note in the PDF documentation your making about needing to be in progressive mode. :) I know, you say leave my player in progressive mode. I do for viewing DVD's and HDD recorded material (anxious to try the disc I forgot to switch to progressive first) but the built-in analog tv tuner material looks slightly washed out in progressive mode so it's usually on interlace mode.

2 of my interlaced DVD players show it fine.

2 of my interlaced DVD players show it fine.

Ahhh, then I guess it's my DVR (Toshiba RD-SX52). :)

Daryl L -- The problem that you’re having indicates that you do not have the Sharp LC-26D7U or your DVD player set correctly. There should be no difference between 480i and 480p outputs, unless either the DVD player or the display is modifying the reference levels. This is true for any of my DVD players and displays.

I finally found an online copy of the manual for your LC-26D7U and I discovered, on page 46, that the Black Level control should be set to “ON” in order to get the full range of black levels. The default appears to be “OFF” which will prevent the display from showing “full details in dark scenes”. The same is true for both of my projectors, they have 2 settings, only one of which will enable showing true black (the other will clip the black level like your Sharp does with the Black level control set to “OFF”).

You should always make sure that all your equipment settings are correct, before starting to calibrate, in addition to warming up you display for at least 20 minutes with moving video. You also might want to read over this review for some suggestions on setting the backlight: http://www.lcdtvbuyingguide.com/lcdtvreviews/sharp-lc26d7u-review.shtml. BTW, you are not the only one who has had problems with black levels (I have run across a number of members who have reported similar problems on other forums). The solution is always the same - check how your equipment is processing the black levels.

COMMENT: From that review, you have a very good display. You should not be seeing the problems that you've mentioned, if it's set up right. Check your Toshiba RD-SX52 manual also, for the same black level setting problem.

You should also be aware that some DVD players (not sure if your Toshiba RD-SX52 is one of them) might not handle black levels correctly with their default settings. Some, for instance, will actually add a false black level to the video black, making it digital 32, instead of digital 16. I have one that can do that, when the display is also set to clip black levels at Digital 16. So be sure both your player and your display will handle full black levels.

Scott (GetGray) and I have been having an off-line discussion of the correct usage of the full gray scale nomenclature. The patterns that he generates are based on the RGB range of 0 to 255. These are then encoded to digital YUV. According to Bill (Ursa) RGB = 0 is not a legal YUV value and it is really RGB = 1 after encoding into YUV (YCbCr) space.

For those of you who are not familiar with gray scale specifications, this has nothing to do with Video Black (= digital 16 or 0% stimulus).

The question is how do we state the actual gray scale range in the Calibration Disc Instructions? Most readers (myself included) are used seeing the gray scale described as being RGB = 0/0/0 to 255/255/255 (8 bits per color), even though that’s not absolutely correct for video signals. Since all conversions are ± 1 bit (1 LSB error, in computer terms) anyway, does it really matter if we call maximum black ”0” or “1” (also on the Maximum Black test pattern, should it be “1 Black”, or “0 Black”).

This question comes up because both Scott & I are perfectionists, and we want to be as precise as reasonable (no compromises, if at all possible). And we don’t want to cause confusion, but we also don’t want to be incorrect, either.

We would like to hear inputs from the calibration experts among you. Bill (Ursa) do you have any suggestions/recommendations? If anyone has any comments that are likely to cause convoluted responses from other members, feel free to PM me, instead of posting on this thread. I’ll share your PM comments with Scott, off-line.

Scott (GetGray) and I have been having an off-line discussion of the correct usage of the full gray scale nomenclature. The patterns that he generates are based on the RGB range of 0 to 255. These are then encoded to digital YUV. According to Bill (Ursa) RGB = 0 is not a legal YUV value and it is really RGB = 1 after encoding into YUV (YCbCr) space.
Video 8-bit RGB values are encoded with black at 16 (equivalent to 0 IRE) and reference white at 235 (equivalent to 100 IRE). You don't want to generate video YCbCr (the term YUV is inappropriate) values using RGB values of 0 (black) to 255 (reference white), because then you can't generate below black or above reference white values. You also introduce grayscale errors that can be avoided by using video RGB levels. However, if you do use RGB = (0,0,0) for black then that converts to YCbCr = (16,128,128). What do you mean that isn't a legal YCbCr value? And what do you mean that RGB = (0,0,0) is really RGB=1, which makes no sense at all?

However, if you do use RGB = (0,0,0) for black then that converts to YCbCr = (16,128,128). Greg: That is exactly what I do and that is the way I understood it. With that you have cleared up my concern from someone else's input on the subject, and some probably incorrect assumptions about what they meant. I believe we are all set now and can complete the document properly. Thank you. Scott

Ok. I was going to respond to Greg, but if you're satisfied, then I'll shut up.

I was trying to look like I knew what I was doing :eek: :eek: . But go ahead if you like ; :D

Daryl L -- The problem that you’re having indicates that you do not have the Sharp LC-26D7U or your DVD player set correctly. There should be no difference between 480i and 480p outputs, unless either the DVD player or the display is modifying the reference levels. This is true for any of my DVD players and displays.

I finally found an online copy of the manual for your LC-26D7U and I discovered, on page 46, that the Black Level control should be set to “ON” in order to get the full range of black levels. The default appears to be “OFF” which will prevent the display from showing “full details in dark scenes”. The same is true for both of my projectors, they have 2 settings, only one of which will enable showing true black (the other will clip the black level like your Sharp does with the Black level control set to “OFF”).

You should always make sure that all your equipment settings are correct, before starting to calibrate, in addition to warming up you display for at least 20 minutes with moving video. You also might want to read over this review for some suggestions on setting the backlight: http://www.lcdtvbuyingguide.com/lcdtvreviews/sharp-lc26d7u-review.shtml. BTW, you are not the only one who has had problems with black levels (I have run across a number of members who have reported similar problems on other forums). The solution is always the same - check how your equipment is processing the black levels.

COMMENT: From that review, you have a very good display. You should not be seeing the problems that you've mentioned, if it's set up right. Check your Toshiba RD-SX52 manual also, for the same black level setting problem.

You should also be aware that some DVD players (not sure if your Toshiba RD-SX52 is one of them) might not handle black levels correctly with their default settings. Some, for instance, will actually add a false black level to the video black, making it digital 32, instead of digital 16. I have one that can do that, when the display is also set to clip black levels at Digital 16. So be sure both your player and your display will handle full black levels.

Thx for the suggestion. I always have my DVD players Black Level set to Normal/Lighter/7.5 IRE and the Sharp LCD's backlight set to -4 (ranging from -8 to +8) and OPC Off with Black adjustment set to Off. I have three DVD players (two being DVR's). The Panny CP72, Toshiba RD-XS52 and Pioneer DVR420 (Costco's version of DVR520). Now I've been at this hobby of calibrating my system since ~1996/7 and although I understand the basics I'm far from even close to being an expert and am definately no EE so I would assume you understand this stuff much better than I. Therefore I take your opinion as an valid option. So I started testing.

Using the GetGray Black Level pattern I tried each DVD player in Interlaced mode set to 7.5 IRE and The LCD Black option Off. Only the +1% and +2% black bars would show. Then LCD Black option On, no difference.

Using the GetGray Black Level pattern I tried each DVD player in Interlaced mode set to 0 IRE and The LCD Black option Off. No black bars would show. Then LCD Black option On, no difference.

[NOTE: This why my Toshiba showed no bars at all first off. I forgot it was in interlace mode and it appears it automaticly plays DVD's at 0 IRE. When you hit the play button you can see the black level change one second before the dvd starts. Also it has been unofficially confirmed the Toshiba RD-XS52/32's have a Black Level error but only with DVD's recorded on the Toshiba RD-XS52/32's from external sources and played back on another brand DVD player discussed thoroughly HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=396416&page=1&pp=20&highlight=xs32) and HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=396416&page=22&pp=30&highlight=xs52).]

Using the GetGray Black Level pattern I tried each DVD player in Progressive mode set to 7.5 IRE and The LCD Black option Off. Only the +1% and +2% black bars would show. Then LCD Black option On, no difference.

Using the GetGray Black Level pattern I tried each DVD player in Progressive mode set to 0 IRE and The LCD Black option Off. Oddly only the +2% black bars would show. Then LCD Black option On, no difference.

I tried each of these tests with all three DVD players through three different acoustic research component cables and a Zektor HDS4 component switcher. Same results with each player. I know it's not my players or the DVD. It's definately my LCD tv. Others in the LCD/Plasma display form concluded that the Sharp LCD's Black setting is not a black level expansion 0/7.5 IRE setting but that it suppose to help bring out detail alittle in dark/shadowed areas and just alters the gamma curve discussed a little HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=577901&page=17&pp=30). Someone commented that maybe the Sharp just would not accept/play a below black signal from an external source(?). (EXCEPT: through the HDMI input. I have HBOHD's Off Air SMPTE test pattern recorded on my HD DVR Cable box which has below black/video black/above black bars below the color bars and through the HDMI input the Sharp LCD will display the BTB bar). But no matter what combination of settings I use on my LCD and DVD players BTB will not display through the component inputs from the GetGray or DVE discs.

If anybody has other opinions or suggestions I'm option to trying. :)

THX Optimizer (Blue Filter) glasses are again available on their site. The price is "free" but costs $5.10 for shipping and $2.50 for handling.

Rec. 601 reserves codes 0 and 255 for synchronization signals in StudioR’G’B’ and thus are not valid levels for video information in this space. Of course, 0 and 255 ARE valid for sRGB space.

Dave

THX Optimizer (Blue Filter) glasses are again available on their site. The price is "free" but costs $5.10 for shipping and $2.50 for handling.

Ouch! :eek: I got mine for $2 shipped six months ago. I guess you guys/gals have been hitting 'em pretty heavy.

I have a Tosh 65HX93 RPCRT. I read through this thread to to monitor the calibration discussion. I've had the Avia HT DVD which I used to calibrate my set, although I've never been sure I did the contrast or brightness correctly. I've since found some other patterns for brightness (black level).

In any event, I went to the calibration dvd website and it was pretty upfront about the DVD being for fixed pixel displays, but I downloaded the documentation anyway.

Going theough the documentation it was again made clear that the DVD wasnt for RP-CRT's because it didn't have the blooming diagnostic images, and it didn't have convergence grids.

I have used the AVIA to check for blooming using the half white, with stacked gray/white blocks as well as the needlepoint. I've actually never been able to see any blooming on my set. I also have been using the internal convergence grid to do user level 56pt. convergence settings (though I'm interested in making my own external grid on mylar material).

In any event, some of the other tests in your Calibration dvd look very useable.

are there other reasons (besides blooming and convergence) that this DVD would not be appropriate for my RP-CRT?

Thanks,
Rick

are there other reasons (besides blooming and convergence) that this DVD would not be appropriate for my RP-CRT?


It's still very useable with a CRT.

I also have a CRT (waiting for my plasma) but signed up for GetGray in advance / to help the cause.

I find the tint/saturation pattern MUCH better than any of the others as one example.

The BTB and WTW patterns are also useful for evaluating black/white crush in your display chain.

Good grayscale patterns too.

Rick,
With a toshiba crt set, you don't have to worry so much about blooming. You can't really make a tosh bloom. You just set the contrast so that you get the right amount of light output using the 100IRE (or 100% pattern) and you're done.

The test disc will still be of use to you if for nothing else than the grayscale patterns (jvincint is right that the color/tint patterns are quite good). AVIA's grayscale patterns are wrong. they are contaminated with color. Off the top of my head I don't recall the exact nature of the contamination. if you try to use them for grayscale, you have to turn the color control off (or disconnect a component cable(s)).

bottomline this disc is useful for crt owners, but has LOTS of useful info for digital display owners.

Best,
jeff

THX Optimizer (Blue Filter) glasses are again available on their site. The price is "free" but costs $5.10 for shipping and $2.50 for handling.Not to sound conceded, but I bet this thread is the cause of that. All of a sudden, a hundred orders for the glasses? $7.60 does seem kinda steep for cardboard glasses, but not outrageous I suppose.

Would be nice to get some blue filter glass if it were available; Take it to lenscrafters, have a set of ":cool:super-calibrator:cool:" specs made up custom. One would be the envy of his calibrator peers :)

Rec. 601 reserves codes 0 and 255 for synchronization signals in StudioR’G’B’ and thus are not valid levels for video information in this space. Of course, 0 and 255 ARE valid for sRGB space. Dave: But a DVD is encoded with YCbCr, not RGB, so for this DVD, it's not specifically relevant, is it?

Dave: But a DVD is encoded with YCbCr, not RGB, so for this DVD, it's not specifically relevant, is it?

My comments were offered in reference to the seeming confusion that 0 and 255 are invalid codes for “RGB” and that “0=1” etc. Just pointing out the distinction between StudioR’G’B', sRGB and StudioRGB.
RGB = 0 is not a legal YUV value and it is really RGB = 1 after encoding into YUV (YCbCr) space.

I agree that in reference to this DVD, it’s irrelevant.

Dave

Not to sound conceded, but I bet this thred is the cause of that. All of a sudden, a hundred orders for the glasses? $7.60 is kinda steep for cardboard glasses, but not outrageous I suppose. Woudl be nice to get some blue filter glass if it were available. Take it to lenscrafters, have a set of ":cool:super-calibrator:cool:" specs made up custom. One would be the envy of his calibrator peers :)

Not to worry :D I ordered two sets and the price was $7.70 (true fact!) :p so I figure I got one set for 10 cents :rolleyes: ... beat that. :eek: Anyone want to buy my first set for my cost ($7.60) ;) (j/k)

My comments were offered in reference to the seeming confusion that 0 and 255 are invalid codes for “RGB” and that “0=1” etc. Just pointing out the distinction between StudioR’G’B', sRGB and StudioRGB. And thank you for that. The distinction was the issue and I believe your input was right on-target. Much appreciated.I agree that in reference to this DVD, it’s irrelevant.And that's a good thing. I agree. That helps so we can straightnen out any comments in the docs and move on.

Again, thanks for the technical input. Cheers, Scott

Not to worry :D I ordered two sets and the price was $7.70 (true fact!) :p so I figure I got one set for 10 cents :rolleyes: ... beat that. :eek: Anyone want to buy my first set for my cost ($7.60) ;) (j/k)No but I might be interested in your second pair :D

My comments were offered in reference to the seeming confusion that 0 and 255 are invalid codes for “RGB” and that “0=1” etc. Just pointing out the distinction between StudioR’G’B', sRGB and StudioRGB.

I agree that in reference to this DVD, it’s irrelevant.

Rec 601 and Rec 709 have nothing to do with digital RGB PC signals. Rec 601 and Rec 709 describe the coding of digital video, not digital PC signals. Black is at R=G=B=16 (for 8-bit video) and reference white is at R=G=B=235, so there is no need for 0 and 255 to represent video content. Hence, they can be reserved for sync signal information.

For PC digital RGB signals 0 and 255 are not reserved. DVI for instance, uses 0 for black and 255 for reference white, when transmitting digital PC signals. When DVI sync signals are sent the video data is known to be invalid (DE is disabled) so there is no confusion about sync and video data.

I don't know what anyone means by "0=1". That makes no sense.

I don't know what anyone means by "0=1". That makes no sense.It's a combo misunderstanding combined with some semantics. It was only related to the document. 1 is -ne to 0 of course, it had to do with what to call "maximum" black as related to RGB. It was being called "0", but if R=G=B=0 was illegal (which it is not in the context where it is used in the document), then it would have had to have been 1 instead of 0 (That was the root of the concern which is all clear now). Thus Claus's reference 0=1 which was meant to describe ".. called 0 but actually level one since 0 was illegal..". I understand that is not the case.

No need to correct that any further, we had it right all along prior to the 0=1 reference when 0=0, or certaintly do now anyway.

Forget it was mentioned, it was a misunderstanding cleared, the doc is fixed :), thanks no small part to your input :) Sincerely appreciated as always. :):)

Forget it was mentioned ...
OK. I feel much better now. :)

Always remember, Black Is Black [Los Bravos] and when in doubt, Paint It Black [Stones]

Sorry it's been a bit since I checked in (my subscriptions are intermittent...). Not to fuel controversy I may have had a hand in, but wouldn't RGB(0,0,0) encode as YCbCr(16,128,128). only if the MPEG encoder precluded BTB data? In the decode stage, this should come back as RGB(16,16,16) right?

Scott - Thanks for the credit. If it's not too late, I'd actually prefer my real name in a credit, rather than a latin analog to a proper nickname (Alan really should recycle userids which haven't logged in in over three years...).

Later,
Bill

Later,
Bill

I know GetGrey wants to put this to bed but it seems this confusion is mostly semantics and somewhat continues? IMO, it’s confusing when one says “RGB” without referencing which RGB space one is referring to. Codewords 0 and 255 are reserved and invalid for video data in 8-bit StudioR’G’B’ space, valid and legal in 8-bit sRGB space, and legal but invalid in 8-bit StudioRGB space. It’s also somewhat confusing using ‘legal’ and ‘valid’ as they are synonyms (at least in MS word) but those are the terms Poynton uses. Poynton only counts ~10.6 million valid codewords in StudioRGB space. The remaining ~6.1 million BTB/WTW codewords are therefore not considered valid by him.

FWIW, I do agree this is largely academic / irrelevant since as GetGrey noted, a DVD is encoded in YCbCr and therefore only contains ~2.75 million valid codewords.

Dave

Sorry it's been a bit since I checked in (my subscriptions are intermittent...). Not to fuel controversy I may have had a hand in, but wouldn't RGB(0,0,0) encode as YCbCr(16,128,128). only if the MPEG encoder precluded BTB data? In the decode stage, this should come back as RGB(16,16,16) right?
I came into this discussion late so I'm not sure I know the original context. But I understand that test patterns were created on a computer using the RGB = (0,0,0) as black and RGB = (255,255,255) as reference white (equivalent to 100 IRE). Now it is desired to convert those RGB-PC levels to YCbCr levels to be MPEG encoded on a DVD. That's my understanding of what is going on.

If that is correct, then the RGB-PC level for black must be converted to the YCbCr level for black. (or else the pattern changes!) So RGB-PC (0,0,0) => YCbCr (16, 128, 128). You may want to convert RGB-PC levels to RGB-video levels as an intermediate step. If so then, RGB-PC (0,0,0) => RGB-Video (16,16,16) => YCbCr (16, 128, 128).

Why would you think it makes any difference what the MPEG encoder does with values below black? You can't represent a value below black with RGB-PC levels (which is one reason, but not the only reason, why you shouldn't use them in the first place).

I'm not sure what you mean by "decode stage"? If you mean when the YCbCr is eventually decoded back to RGB in a projector, then it is straightforward to convert the YCbCr black value back to RGB-Video = (16,16,16) [8-bit] or the equivalent with more bits (i.e. 9, 10, 12 bits). But many intermediate processing steps (deinterlacing, scaling, noise reduction, color management, degamma processing, etc) are usually performed and the digital values may converted to signed integers, etc. So what happens in a projector or another processor is individual to the product and doesn't apply to this discussion.

Greg -- This is a "tempest in a teapot". You apparently mis-interpreted what was said (I guess I wasn't too clear in my original question). Reference Black (= Video Black = 0%) is RGB = 16, 16, 16 and Reference White (= Video White = 100%) is RGB = 235, 235, 235. We were talking about creating maximum black (BTB) and maximum white (WTW). That's where the confusion came in.

We are all on the same page as far as the correct signal levels (YCbCr) for the reference black & white are. The documentation has been corrected, so we can put his question to bed. The test patterns never were in question (and were done right - values that you so clearly stated) to start with, it was only the words necessary to describe BTB and WTW.


Bill, that depends on the encoder. Scott is using one that encodes RGB = 16, 16, 16 as YCbCr = 16, 128, 128. He apparently can get RGB = 0, 0, 0 to encode something mathematically close to YCbCr = 1, 128, 128 (if I have correectly understood what he has done -- the ins & outs of this process is an area that I am definitely an ignoramus on and I don't even know if I'm making sense). This is an area where you, Greg, Scott, et al, are educating me on.

=======

Daryl L -- I was concerned that you had missed that fine point in your display's set-up. It sounds like you've covered all the bases with your combinations of set-ups. This is surprising to me, since LCD projectors have the capability of displaying BTB and WTW (at least mine do – including the one I no longer have).

I just looked at my cheap Proview 17" 16:9 LCD TV (in the spare bedroom - Component inputs from the DVD player) and it can’t display BTB either (it also can’t go any higher than 95% on the white level). I did not do any adjusting of the Brightness and Contrast controls on the connected DVD player though (they are set at their defaults). The Proview apparently doesn't do a good job of deinterlacing either, since the Belle-Nuit pattern is only good with the cheap DaeWoo ($50) player set to progressive scan (480p).

Greg -- This is a "tempest in a teapot". You apparently mis-interpreted what was said (I guess I wasn't too clear in my original question). Reference Black (= Video Black = 0%) is RGB = 16, 16, 16 and Reference White (= Video White = 100%) is RGB = 235, 235, 235. We were talking about creating maximum black (BTB) and maximum white (WTW). That's where the confusion came in.
Now I am definitely confused. I think you are saying above that you created the patterns with black at RGB (16,16,16). But earlier I apparently misunderstood you and I wrote:

However, if you do use RGB = (0,0,0) for black then that converts to YCbCr = (16,128,128).
And Scott answered:

Greg: That is exactly what I do ...

So now I don't know if you created patterns with black at RGB (16,16,16) or (0,0,0). You and Scott seem to be disagreeing.

But if you created patterns with black at RGB-Video (16,16,16) then it appears that this was really about how to represent values below black, not how to represent black. And in that case, I guess the question was how to represent a below black RGB-Video (0,0,0) value as a YCbCr value. The answer to that is simple. You can't in Rec 601. The RGB-Video (0,0,0) value is reserved in Rec 601 and shouldn't be used as a video value on a DVD. The minimum value you should use is RGB (1,1,1) which is YCbCr (1,128,128). (I'll resist the impulse to ask why you want to encode signals that far below black in the first place).

Anyway, it's 4:55 am here so I'm going to bed. If you guys are happy, I'm happy. Sorry if I caused any confusion.

Scott - Thanks for the credit. If it's not too late, I'd actually prefer my real name in a credit, rather than a latin analog to a proper nickname (Alan really should recycle userids which haven't logged in in over three years...)Not too late, I will change it to the full name. Thanks!

But if you created patterns with black at RGB-Video (16,16,16) then it appears that this was really about how to represent values below black, not how to represent black. And in that case, I guess the question was how to represent a below black RGB-Video (0,0,0) value as a YCbCr value. The answer to that is simple. You can't in Rec 601. The RGB-Video (0,0,0) value is reserved in Rec 601 and shouldn't be used as a video value on a DVD. The minimum value you should use is RGB (1,1,1) which is YCbCr (1,128,128). (I'll resist the impulse to ask why you want to encode signals that far below black in the first place).

Greg - I think we are on the same page. Scott had asked me why RGB(0,0,0) was illegal. My response was that was what was in the Rec. I also did not know whether YCbCr(0,0,0) was illegal, but that seems to also be what the Rec says (the free copy is pretty sparse on explanatory language for us lay people). I'd leave it up to Scott for anything else, since I wasn't a participant in the discussion beyond just what the Rec says.


Later,
Bill

Greg, I believe I answered incorrectly re "that's exactly what I do". It is not. Let's see if this helps. Here IS what I do.

Take for example a 0% amplitude pattern. It has a window that is encoded as RGB 16/16/16. The "frame" of that window is intentionally encoded below black, the maximum below. The original pattern's frames were created using RGB 0/0/0. Ursa suggested that technically this shoudln't be done and it would be more proper to use 1/1/1. Whether or not this is correct may be technically moot since no one's properly calibrated display is going to show levels of 1 or 0, valid or not.

To create the pattern, I take the RGB (photoshop) image and convert it to YCbCr studio levels using a C program. This YCbCr is fed to an mpeg encoder that accepts YCbCr natively, and created the mpeg structure from it.

RGB 0/0/0 converts to YCbCr 0/128/128 with my C program. This is meant to be "below black" information, and the lowest value of below black possible. Also, the mpeg encoder is set to accept values 0-255 so it does not clip the <16 information back to 16.

For a "0% amplitude" video black window, the level is RGB 16/16/16. That is converted to YCbCr as 16/128/128 before being encoded to mpeg.

The disc is intentionally created to be able to show above white (236-255) and below black (0-15) information. It is meant to be used to adjust so 16-235 is the tuned black and white level (+/-).

The issue came about when saying a RGB 0/0/0 (which is converted to YCbCr 0/128/128) was technically a valid level (or not).

Like Dave said, it's academic at this point since if adjusted correctly the display wouldn't get anywhere near actually displaying digital level 1, much less 0. It will clip anything below 16 (or slightly lower if one tuned to allow some BTB to show).

It was whether or not it was correct to use YCbCr 0/128/128 as the lowest possible value of black or was it more correct to use RGB 1/1/1 (YCbCr 1/128/128).

That help clear up what the question/issue was?

But if you created patterns with black at RGB-Video (16,16,16) then it appears that this was really about how to represent values below black, not how to represent black. And in that case, I guess the question was how to represent a below black RGB-Video (0,0,0) value as a YCbCr value. The answer to that is simple. You can't in Rec 601. The RGB-Video (0,0,0) value is reserved in Rec 601 and shouldn't be used as a video value on a DVD. The minimum value you should use is RGB (1,1,1) which is YCbCr (1,128,128). (I'll resist the impulse to ask why you want to encode signals that far below black in the first place).

And I believe that answers the original question, and agrees with Ursa. The "maximum" level of black to be on a DVD in YCbCr should be YCbCr 1/128/128 (RGB1/1/1). For this discussion, call it "Maximum black" unless there is a better/proper name for it.

As to why such a value was used, I knwo I could have used say level 10 for exapmle to be sufficently "below black". I used Maximum Black in places where I wanted to ensure the display was displaying as black as possible. Places where teh display should, in as much as possible, be "off", not giving any color information.

If someone had their brightness too high, a 0% amplitude window would be visible on the darker BTB (and in my disc's case Maximum Black) background. If I was to have a BTB area/element for the sole purpose of being as dark as possible, I decided it might as well be the "Maximum Black" value. In addition to having that level as the background for the gray window patterns, I have one full screen "Maximum Black" window. Those are the only palces I remember having "Maximum Black" off the top of my head.

The Maximum Black pattern is intended to be used to measure on-off contrast. I know this does not account for the brightness setting (if higher), but my intent was to be able to measure a maximum on-off contrast ratio as-calibrated. So if one had their display set to display some below black information, this "Maximum Black" pattern will show that exact level, instead of the brightness of a level 16 pattern which could be slightly higher in luminance, resulting in a worse contrast ratio calculation.

So Claus, I'll straighten out the 0 and 1 thing in my rev.12 and pass back to you.

Greg, thanks very much as always for taking the time to give input.

Everyone else, the "Maximum Black" levels on the current DVD's are already RGB 1/1/1, YCbCr 1/128/128 and are correct.

Cheers,
Scott

Daryl L -- I was concerned that you had missed that fine point in your display's set-up. It sounds like you've covered all the bases with your combinations of set-ups. This is surprising to me, since LCD projectors have the capability of displaying BTB and WTW (at least mine do – including the one I no longer have).

I just looked at my cheap Proview 17" 16:9 LCD TV (in the spare bedroom - Component inputs from the DVD player) and it can’t display BTB either (it also can’t go any higher than 95% on the white level). I did not do any adjusting of the Brightness and Contrast controls on the connected DVD player though (they are set at their defaults). The Proview apparently doesn't do a good job of deinterlacing either, since the Belle-Nuit pattern is only good with the cheap DaeWoo ($50) player set to progressive scan (480p).

Thx anyhow for your input. I had to just edit my previous post to add an important point I left out where my Sharp LCD will infact display a BTB image but only over the HDMI input but just not through the component inputs. I added the below info.

(EXCEPT: through the HDMI input. I have HBOHD's Off Air SMPTE test pattern recorded on my HD DVR Cable box which has below black/video black/above black bars below the color bars and through the HDMI input the Sharp LCD will display the BTB bar). But no matter what combination of settings I use on my LCD and DVD players BTB will not display through the component inputs from the GetGray or DVE discs.

Since this is the wrong thread for this I let it go at that. :)

... Whether or not this is correct may be technically moot since no one's properly calibrated display is going to show levels of 1 or 0, valid or not.

... The issue came about when saying a RGB 0/0/0 (which is converted to YCbCr 0/128/128) was technically a valid level (or not).

... Like Dave said, it's academic at this point since if adjusted correctly the display wouldn't get anywhere near actually displaying digital level 1, much less 0.

The reason the values 0 and 255 are prohibited isn't related to how a display would show the values. These values are prohibited because they are used to code timing information in the ITU-R BT.656 standard. The BT.656 standard defines a 4:2:2 YCbCr parallel (and serial) interface for transporting video data. One of its applications is to move digital video data between ICs in video products (for instance inside a DVD player between the output of an MPEG decoder and a video DAC or DVI transmitter). Therefore, if you include the values 0 or 255 in the YCbCr video information, it could confuse the sync timing of ICs that receive 4:2:2 YCbCr video using the BT.656 interface (shorten video lines, change the length of fields, etc.). So technically what is prohibited in Rec 601 is the use of the 8-bit values 0 and 255 in 4:2:2 YCbCr video, but since 4:4:4 YCbCr or 4:4:4 RGB values ultimately get converted to 4:2:2 YCbCr for BT.656 interfaces in video products, 0 and 255 must not be used in those formats either.

Thank you Greg, you've helped educate me too. From Scott's latest email to me, I believe he's made the corrections.

Scott, I edited it and sent it back (forgot to change the header though). Based on what Greg & Bill said, you need to make sure that your "C" program does not encode 0 or 255 (i.e. it clips at 1 and 254, or even 2 and 253 to be on the safe side).

Daryl L -- I agree. Thanks for the update.

Based on what Greg & Bill said, you need to make sure that your "C" program does not encode 0 or 255 (i.e. it clips at 1 and 254, or even 2 and 253 to be on the safe side).Actually it's more simple than that. I just don't use RGB 0/0/0 when creating. No need to do it programatically. No need to clip, definately not at 2/253. If 1/254 are proper limits for YCbCr, that's exactly what they will be. Actually, black is already set that way. I will change white 255 to 254 in about 3 places.

S

OK guys. I've released Beta 6.0 Try not to get it all at once. By popular request it has a basic set of full field patterns. I do not recommend their use however unless you have avery specific need and fully understand why you need them over a window pattern.

The current revision of the documentation is also available on the download page to contributors.

Beta 6.0:

Corrected 2 pixel error on "Letterbox" line of alignment/Overscan pattern. Renamed "Letterbox" indicator to more correct 2.35:1
Changed opening screen and disc info/credits
Changed menu wording to Maximum White, Maximum Black.
Added 1 sequence of 10% step full field gray patterns, labelled.
Updated opening screen to production version
Updated credits screen to rolling credits with contributors, info, etc.
Reduced volume on auto gray pattern beeps

Scott

You have updated Instructions (just emailed it about a half hour ago). All the errors should be corrected now and all the pictures have been updated too. We're getting there:D.

I can send you my PDF version, if you desire.

GetGray

Could I join the beta or do you have enough people now?

Thanks
Anim
(TX200 + AE100)

OK guys. I've released Beta 6.0 Try not to get it all at once. By popular request it has a basic set of full field patterns. I do not recommend their use however unless you have avery specific need and fully understand why you need them over a window pattern.

The current revision of the documentation is also available on the download page to contributors.

Beta 6.0:

Corrected 2 pixel error on "Letterbox" line of alignment/Overscan pattern. Renamed "Letterbox" indicator to more correct 2.35:1
Changed opening screen and disc info/credits
Changed menu wording to Maximum White, Maximum Black.
Added 1 sequence of 10% step full field gray patterns, labelled.
Updated opening screen to production version
Updated credits screen to rolling credits with contributors, info, etc.
Reduced volume on auto gray pattern beeps

Scott

Ok, LOL, I contrubuted yesterday and dowloaded the 5.x beta. (I assume I can just go back in in a few days and download the latest beta.).

One observation, after using it to calibrate a Tosh, 65HX93 RP-CRT. fed by a OPPO 971 Upconverting over DVI outputting 720P.

Most of the screens (not all of them) seem to "jiggle". It was rather distracting at first, but i finally got to where I could ignore it. I've used same DVD writer to burn other DVD's without issue, so I don't thikn it's a writer problem.

If you want, I can go though and see which screens are shaking. I can also check different outputs on the OPPO. If you want that info, let me know.

Rick

rickie -- Go get the latest update, some of those problems should be fixed (if it's associated with the encoding of the files). Use the same name and password that you originally got (keep it in a safe place - you'll need it again too). I don't know if Scott has had a chance to update to the absolute latest "Instructions":D, but even the one that was on his site yesterday is still prettry good, but has a few errors (mostly spelling).

Anim -- See the calibration web site: www.calibtate.tv. You can also send him an email, see the address at the bottom of that page. Remember, if you're not familiar with display calibration, you need to do a lot more reading first (you can start with the documentation that is free, also on the site).

rickie -- Go get the latest update, some of those problems should be fixed (if it's associated with the encoding of the files). Use the same name and password that you originally got (keep it in a safe place - you'll need it again too). I don't know if Scott has had a chance to update to the absolute latest "Instructions":D, but even the one that was on his site yesterday is still prettry good, but has a few errors (mostly spelling).


Thanks, I'll probably wait a few days to get new docs at same time. I should have edited my post above, after I [osted it occurred to me to search the thread, and I see that the problem I mentioined was already identified.


Thanks,
Rick

Thanks, I'll probably wait a few days to get new docs at same time. I should have edited my post above, after I [osted it occurred to me to search the thread, and I see that the problem I mentioined was already identified.


Thanks,
RickRick: See docs, Q&A section: "Can I use the Get Gray DVD to calibrate my CRT device?". (Answer is, it's not designed for CRT's). But FWIW, all of the patterns with the exceptions of Y/C delay, Frequencey Bursts, andthe rolling credits are created from an identical process. If some "jiggle" (on unsupported CRT) and some do not, I would be curious as to which do and don't.

Best,Scott

Claus.
Link is www.calibrate.tv

Just trying to help

Claus.
Link is www.calibrate.tv.com

Just trying to helpThanks for the help, but...No, it's not. Website is www.calibrate.tv

"tv" is the TLD (top level domain) not "com" . I chose the tv TLD for obvious reasons, even though it's not what tv really stands for...

The reason the values 0 and 255 are prohibited isn't related to how a display would show the values. These values are prohibited because they are used to code timing information in the ITU-R BT.656 standard. The BT.656 standard defines a 4:2:2 YCbCr parallel (and serial) interface for transporting video data. One of its applications is to move digital video data between ICs in video products (for instance inside a DVD player between the output of an MPEG decoder and a video DAC or DVI transmitter). Therefore, if you include the values 0 or 255 in the YCbCr video information, it could confuse the sync timing of ICs that receive 4:2:2 YCbCr video using the BT.656 interface (shorten video lines, change the length of fields, etc.). So technically what is prohibited in Rec 601 is the use of the 8-bit values 0 and 255 in 4:2:2 YCbCr video, but since 4:4:4 YCbCr or 4:4:4 RGB values ultimately get converted to 4:2:2 YCbCr for BT.656 interfaces in video products, 0 and 255 must not be used in those formats either.
Oops, missed your reply. Thanks very much for the technical detail as to the whys. Version Beta 6.0 of the DVD now has no occurances of RGB 0/0/0 nor 255/255/255. 0/0/0 was already out, I had to step 255 to 254 in about 3 places which is done.

Thanks again, Scott

OK guys, I think that will wrap it up, or close. Claus and I are on back and forth iteration #20 of the documentation and the current version is available on the website (again that's www.calibrate.tv). I've added the requested full-field patterns. I haven't left out much that was ever requested. I'll be going over the patterns one last time carefully and presuming nothing else is identified, version Beta 6.0 is a release candidate.

Time to look into PAL.

You guys are awesome! I can't wait to try it out.

Maybe in a few months we can start talking about the H.264 AVC version? ;) :p

You guys are awesome! I can't wait to try it out.

Maybe in a few months we can start talking about the H.264 AVC version? ;) :pDon't laugh. I'm salivating over the encoder now. Only $499. I'll need a lot more contributors before doing it though ;)

There were only a few minor (cosmetic) errors in the documentation (#21), which have been corrected and sent to GetGray. The latest Video_TS files work smoothly too (on my laptop, I haven't had the chance to try it out on my HT system though).

Note to CRT users: You'll also need AVIA or DVE to set the maximum Contrast first, since these test patterns are not in the Caldisc as GetGray has stated (and documented in the "Instructions"). Since this disc is intended for fixed digital displays, there also may be some "flickering" on CRTs (analog display) as also stated above.

Time to look into PAL.Yes!!! :)

Ok, LOL, I contrubuted yesterday and dowloaded the 5.x beta. (I assume I can just go back in in a few days and download the latest beta.).

One observation, after using it to calibrate a Tosh, 65HX93 RP-CRT. fed by a OPPO 971 Upconverting over DVI outputting 720P.

Most of the screens (not all of them) seem to "jiggle". It was rather distracting at first, but i finally got to where I could ignore it. I've used same DVD writer to burn other DVD's without issue, so I don't thikn it's a writer problem.

If you want, I can go though and see which screens are shaking. I can also check different outputs on the OPPO. If you want that info, let me know.

Rick
You probably should try the 1080i output on your Oppo since your TV, being a CRT RPTV, is probably a 1080i native resolution set. This may or may not fix your jiggling problem, but it may make your image quality better since you won't be scaling twice.

If some "jiggle" (on unsupported CRT) and some do not, I would be curious as to which do and don't.


As one of those who reported "jiggling", it's still there on Belle Nuit, Y/C delay, the colour ramps, colour bars, overscan, the colour windows (75% and 100%), the mix black/white bars in the br/cr section.

It's definitely not there in the frequency bursts.

Not sure what's going on, but this is a minor issue IMHO. One thing I did notice, which I think is an issue that needs to be fixed is the credits.

The grey background has equally spaced horizontal lines going through it. Very unprofessional looking.

It's only there on the credits chapter, and it's definitely in the pattern because I see it both on my display and when I'm VNC'd into the HTPC.

Just checking to see how far off are we for all the finals on our Getgray discs?
Do we get the final posted to us or do we burn our final?

many thanks I love using it! :)

Well guys, it's been a long road getting to this announcement. Much longer than I originally expected. I guess that's the way projects go sometimes, especially one that's this popular. This is not a message to say the project is over, but one to announce it has reached a major milestone.

It's been educational and fun for the most part. The disc would not be where it is today without all the help and input from those here. It's taken about 4 1/2 months of picking away at it in all our spare time, but the result is what I think is a fine DVD indeed. All patterns have been scoured and checked, tested and triple checked. It has been tested and used by professionals and novices alike. It is already in use all over the world which is quite flattering for me. I've even made some friends in other countries from this project.

That said, this message is to announce that I am declaring the version Beta 6.1 as the first NTSC production release, GetGray Digital Video Calibration Version 1.0.

I would like to say a special thanks to Claus Wiebe who has worked with me extensively behind the scenes on the documentation. The final documentation draft version was #24. That's 24 revisions after I started "helping" with the documentation :). I am proud of the finished documentation as well as the DVD. For those who followed along from the beginning, you know my original intent was to provide no docs other that some technical details in a text file. This is a far cry from that plan. Thanks to Claus's help and patience, together we have cobbled it into a professional piece of documentation. Claus continues to help me by helping others here on the thread. I don't have the resources to answer a lot of the questions, especially from new folks, but Claus has taken the time and has the patience to help. So again, a special thanks to Claus's participation. Maybe he'll be comfortable recommending his work now ;)

I would also like to sincerely thank the experts here who have chimed in, especially:

Ron (dr_1394) for his outstanding input, programming, and behind the scenes assistance on the RGB to YCbCr details of which the disc would have been impossible without. We can thank Ron for having a DVD that is perfect in levels and color encoding.

Greg Rogers, extremely well known and highly respected in the AV community, who's input was timely, very welcome, and extremely valuable. To have someone of his caliber take time to contribute has been incredible.

Chris Wiggles whose original documentation works on Blacker than Black were my first learning experience on the subject a good long time ago.

Bob Sorel one of our resident AVS HTPC Forum Moderators, for giving me the impetus to go on and do the thing which I contemplated every time I switched calibration discs to get the pattern I wanted.

And to all the other folks I referred to early on as "big dogs" (a compliment :)), as well as everyone who provided input and constructive criticism, thank you very much for the help as well.

The project is not complete yet. I like to think of it as a "living work" however this release makes it much less live :). The next step is to deal with a PAL version. So any of you technical folks don't run away :D:D.

As for the future of the NTSC DVD, I remain open minded about it and will watch for opportunities to improve it with out complicating it, thus defeating it's original purpose. We'll keep an eye on the Ruby/DI issue and I might put something together for that purpose after dealing with PAL.

Now, for downloading the production version, please, don't everyone hit my server at once. If you don't need it right away, wait until you do, then download it to get your copy of the NTSC version 1.0 DVD. Note that the zip file contains BOTH the VIDEO_TS folder and the documentation pdf. You should burn them both to the DVD just as they exist in the zip file.

Everyone is required to read and agree to the License agreement and warnings before use. Page 1 of the document pdf.

See the first link of this thread for links to the patterns and documentation

next, on to PAL land..... the cycle begins again :eek:

Cheers,
Scott

The last disc I burned of getgray was 5.1, is there a 6.1 that I should be burning or am I missing something?

No, 6.0 was the last Beta released to the public. Now we skip (back) to production version NTSC 1.0. It is uploading now. Be ready for everyone tomorrow. Moving credits take a lot of room. Disc is 70+Mb now.

No, 6.0 was the last Beta released to the public. Now we skip (back) to production version NTSC 1.0. It is uploading now. Be ready for everyone tomorrow. Moving credits take a lot of room. Disc is 70+Mb now.
I thought we we all to get notification to all the new versions? 6.0 is one I never got Im still on 5.1?

[QUOTE=
Do we get the final posted to us or do we burn our final?

many thanks I love using it! :)[/QUOTE]

Any answer to this Q?

Murray, that's why you keep checking this thread, or calibrate.tv. You use the same sign-on for the final as you did for the beta's. And, yes, you burn your own :D .

If you read the calibrate.tv page, that's what the instructions said.

next, on to PAL land..... the cycle begins again

Looking forward to it extremely :D !

Murray, that's why you keep checking this thread, or calibrate.tv. You use the same sign-on for the final as you did for the beta's. And, yes, you burn your own :D .

If you read the calibrate.tv page, that's what the instructions said.
Claus
How do I get to sign in for version 6 please? 5.1c was the last one I got.
Ive tried to find a sign in part on the calibrate.tv page but nothing is there for me to sign into?

many thanks

murray, use the same link, password and user name that you received in the e-mail GetGray sent you when you signed up in the first place.

murray, use the same link, password and user name that you received in the e-mail GetGray sent you when you signed up in the first place.

Thanks Kilgore Ive finally got it and downloading it now.
Its the first time Ive had to do it this way as Ive always had notification of new version but never got one for 6.0 version. I tried to get 6.0 but its no longer available. Never mind Im downloading the final now.

For us guys who have Pal will that version be better for us than the NTSC Version?

Are we ment to download the PDF Manual to the DVD someway?
If so Im not sure how to do that?

thanks in advance for any further help. :rolleyes:

Murray, I don't think so. You can't read the PDF on your DVD player anyway (unless it's an HTPC) - Just keep it in a convenient place on your PC. You can print it out, if you need a hard copy.

Notifications fo Beta Testers are coming here.

I have taken down the 1.0 zip file. Please excuse the false start on NTSC 1.0. I am going to make one change to the credits in order to reduce the download size. The NTSC DVD Production version 1.0 will be back up after 2/22/06 9:00PM CST. My apologies for any inconvenience. This will only affect the credits which are the thing bloating the disc. This will help with the load on my server which pegged last night. It will not affect any patterns, navigation, etc. If you already have the DVD files, you are fine.

Scott

Great stuff! Hmm, I don't think I got a notification in email yet. I guess you lost it again. :)

So, next up: Motion patterns!

I'd like a moving bar pattern or something similar to check for player or display device jitter - I am unsatisfied with the performance of the JudderTest software I've been using, as it is very very sensitive to other running processes on my HTPC. It is great for testing oddball rates when configuring an HTPC's videocard, but I'd also like a more general mpeg2 pattern for use in DVD players to test the video jitter of the playback chain. It would be great for determine if stutter is present due to various factors - incorrect display refresh rate, external scaler misconfiguration, errant deinterlacing, faulty video clocks, etc.

maxleung -- Hmm. It sounds like you want the HQV DVD (if you don't already have it)! That DVD has most of the test patterns you seem to be asking for.

I'm not sure what you mean by "external scaler misconfiguration". That seems to be an "eyeball" check. As for display refresh rate, that's something that applies to computer monitors and not video displays (which are fixed by either PAL or NTSC - you can only chose between interlaced, 25/30 fps, and progressive scan, 50/60 fps).

The HQV DVD isn't sufficient for my needs - I'd like a full-screen motion pattern test - lots of moving bars moving in one direction. It would be useful for checking that the display and the player are in sync with each other. For example, my Benq 8700+ projector has a bug where 720p stutters when fed an NTSC refresh rate. The 8700+ is actually expecting a 60.000 hz signal but the DVD player is outputing 59.94 hz - hence a stutter every 16 seconds. Not all 8700+ owners have (or notice) this problem. A simple motion pattern would make this easy to test for.

What I meant by external scaler misconfiguration is if the scaler has options for changing the framerate (I think a few of the higher end ones can convert from NTSC to PAL or vice versa), or if the scaler is at the wrong refresh rate with respect to the source. I guess you could always eyeball it with a typical Lord of the Rings epic panning scene. :)

I guess this test would be a niche thing - assuming all new equipment adheres to the standards and aren't buggy. :)

OK guys, my apologies for the delay. NTSC production version 1.1 is now up and available on the website (www.calibrate.tv). I have changed the credits from a moving video (rolling credits), to static images. This trims the the zipped DVD by 54Mb. The credits alone are twice the size of the rest of the DVD when moving video is used.

So that little change reduces the download load on my server by 200% per file. Thanks for everyone's patience.

Additionally, I have tried to clarify on the site how to create the DVD structure:

CURRENT VERSION DOWNLOAD: GetGray_NTSC_1-1.zip (approx 26.3 MB, 27,611,103 bytes)

Burning:
Add both the VIDEO_TS and the MISC folder to the DVD. The MISC folder contains the documentation, and a disc label. You can add an empot AUDIO_TS folder but this is only required for compatibility with very old DVD players. Modern DVD players do not use the AUDIO_TS folder.

Disc Label (included on the DVD in the MISC folder)

So DO burn both the MISC AND the VIDEO_TS folder to your DVD to keep the documentation with the DVD as it is supposed to be. This will not affect your player but of course the contents of the MISC folder (pdf document and jpg disc label image) will only be viewable on a PC.

The current production zip file contains both folders.

Cheers,
Scott

Hi

I am new to this site and just read about this disc.
How can I contribute money to this so I can download the final disc

Thanks and from the sounds of this you have a winner on your hands Good Work!!!

www.calibrate.tv

Follow to Paypal link to get onboard.

wizard2 -- Welcome to AVS Forum!

Read the information, on the link Bytehoven posted, first! You should also download and read the "Readme" file first. If you think you can understand and use the disc without too much further assistance, then go to the Paypal link. You will have to burn your own DVD from the downloaded files (requires DVD Writer software that will handle Video_TS files). {no pain, no gain ;) }

This makes a very good DVD, but there is no hand-holding, so you have to have some knowledge of display calibration (there is lots of information on the web and on the AVS forum, but you have to read it).

This makes a very good DVD, but there is no hand-holding, so you have to have some knowledge of display calibration (there is lots of information on the web and on the AVS forum, but you have to read it).OK, let's at least elevate it to it has a "little handholding" :). The Readme document is 28 pages long, surely that counts for "...it has some handlholding....but if you are unable to read, THEN...." :D.

Posted elsewhere but I'll add it here:

GetGray, will your disc work on most commercial DVD players? I have a combo DVD/Receiver Sony Dream System and I'm not sure if it plays DVD-R's (if this matters). I also don't have a DVD burner so is it possible for you to mail out a copy of the disc? Is the cost higher? Lastly, do you include any filters or will the current DVE filters I have be adequate? Thanks!

Yup, Scott, I was referring to "in addition to" the "readme". However, as you have said, there will always be some help available on this thread (as long as it stays open).

JohnnytheSkin -- DVD-Rs tend to work in most DVD players (if they are written at the correct speed -- usually 2x for an advertised 4x disc). Scott has to answer your other question, but it would be an extra charge. You might want to see if you have a friend with a DVD burner to write the disc for you.

If you have a desktop PC, DVD burners can be purchased at very low costs, too. It would also give you the ability of making 4+GB backups of your PC files.

BTW, there are USB external DVD writers too, but they cost a little more.

Posted elsewhere but I'll add it here:

GetGray, will your disc work on most commercial DVD players? I have a combo DVD/Receiver Sony Dream System and I'm not sure if it plays DVD-R's (if this matters). I also don't have a DVD burner so is it possible for you to mail out a copy of the disc? Is the cost higher? Lastly, do you include any filters or will the current DVE filters I have be adequate? Thanks!
In order:
- No way to know, depends on player. I do not have "stamped" (commercially made) discs available at this time.
- I can do a High Quality DVD-R (but prefer not to becasue I'm not really setup for volume DVD production.), Email me at the address on the caldisc website for details.
- Yes
- No, see readme, Appendix A
- Current DVE filters are fine.

-

Just mounted my new Infocus 777. Used my DVD (of course :-)) for a quick check. It never looked so good! (And I never had to wait on a disc intro, didn't have to poke around to find the right brightness patterns, didn't have to pause the patterns I wanted to see, and didn't have to change DVDs for what I wanted.) Ahhhhh. :-D

That's exactly how I felt when I popped it into my HTPC on my Benq 8700+ the other day. Verified that my projector settings are still perfect. Ahhhhh! :D

Did some work with all my blue filters today on my bright projector. I have a 47B, an Avia, a DVE card, and THX glasses. Surprisingly, they are all a little different I believe the THX does the best job. Some let too much through, my DVE card is too dark, even for my 777 light cannon.

I have matched the THX filter color to Lee Filters #071. If you consult the Lee Filter Website, under the "Lighting" section, dealer locator, you may find a lee filter supplier near you. You can get the 071 filter material in 20x24" sheets for about $7.00. Also, if you want red and green, they are #106 and #139 respectively.

I will probably get some and make it available on the website in small strips. I can't recommend enough using some cardboard glasses with your filter material. Get some old 3-D glasses and make your own if you just have the filter strips.

Credit to rwestley for the Lee Filters lead. I used their sample book to match the filters.

Scott, I am glad you were able to make use of the Lee filter book. Thanks for posting the numbers of the filters. There are many that look close. 3D glasses are avaliable at the follwing site if anyone is interested. One could remove the filters in the glasses and replace them with the Lee filter material. It might even be possible to get a group together and have custom glasses made using the Lee filter material. The following company sells and makes glasses.

http://www.the3dmarket.com/

I will be out of the country until March 24th or I would try to find out if this is possible.
Scott, if you have time you might want to inquire.

Thanks for making the best calibration disk available.

Scott, I am glad you were able to make use of the Lee filter book. Thanks for posting the numbers of the filters. There are many that look close. 3D glasses are avaliable at the follwing site if anyone is interested. One could remove the filters in the glasses and replace them with the Lee filter material. It might even be possible to get a group together and have custom glasses made using the Lee filter material. The following company sells and makes glasses.

http://www.the3dmarket.com/

I will be out of the country until March 24th or I would try to find out if this is possible.
Scott, if you have time you might want to inquire.

Thanks for making the best calibration disk available.

Did some work with all my blue filters today on my bright projector. I have a 47B, an Avia, a DVE card, and THX glasses. Surprisingly, they are all a little different I believe the THX does the best job. Some let too much through, my DVE card is too dark, even for my 777 light cannon.

I have matched the THX filter color to Lee Filters #071. If you consult the Lee Filter Website, under the "Lighting" section, dealer locator, you may find a lee filter supplier near you. You can get the 071 filter material in 20x24" sheets for about $7.00. Also, if you want red and green, they are #106 and #139 respectively.

I will probably get some and make it available on the website in small strips. I can't recommend enough using some cardboard glasses with your filter material. Get some old 3-D glasses and make your own if you just have the filter strips.

Credit to rwestley for the Lee Filters lead. I used their sample book to match the filters.

So the Lee Filters #071 Tokyo Blue is better to use than Lee Filters #120 Deep Blue?

Funny how Lee Filters #106 is named Primary Red and Lee Filters #139 is named Primary Green but there's none named Primary Blue

Would these listed Tri-Color (http://www.leefiltersusa.com/CameraPrice/CamPriceBW.html#) be right also?

So the Lee Filters #071 Tokyo Blue is better to use than Lee Filters #120 Deep Blue?

Funny how Lee Filters #106 is named Primary Green and Lee Filters #139 is named Primary Green but there's none named Primary Blue

Would these listed Tri-Color (http://www.leefiltersusa.com/CameraPrice/CamPriceBW.html#) be right also?
Well, per a conversation with Lee, the filter sample pack didn't actually include a 47BA, they gave me the equivalents from their "lighting" filters which is what the sample pack has. Their lighting filters are apparently slightly different than the camera filters but they assured me the color separating qualities were the same. They actually gave me 3 different colors that are "replacements" for 47B but of those 3, I found them all to be different than the other filters I have. *All 3* of the other commercial filters have a slight violet cast to them when compared to deep blue. And as I mentioned the THX did the best visually at separating out the Red and Green. And the lee filter that was visually a perfect match to the THX glasses was the #071. There is another color that is very close, don't remember which it was. But the #071 was indistinguishable from the THX. I would bet Lee Filters made the THX glasses. They do make them for other's e.g. they made the Spy Kids 3D glasses.

So there you have it, not what I expected, but the 071 was a match for THX and I preferred that filter in use. The others didn't seem to cut red and green as well.

HTH

Thx for the reply. I don't actually need any at the moment. I have THX glasses I ordered free a couple years ago which I normaly use aswell as the Avia and DVE filters (though I've never used the DVE filters). I have VE also but don't remember if it came with filters, I'll have to check that. Just researching for future purposes if the need arises. ;)

And I just now noticed Avia's recommended red and green Tri-Color #'s:
Deep Red Tricolor #29
Deep Green Tricolor #61
Deep Blue Tricolor #47B

differ from Lee Filters red and green Tri-Color #'s:
Tri-Color Red, No. 25
Tri-Color Blue, No. 47B
Tri-Color Green, No. 58

Maybe the Avia suggested glass filters slightly differ from plastic filter #'s, I have no idea. Oh well, I'm learning.

Scott, if you have time you might want to inquire.I asked them for a custom quote, we'll see what they say.

Another Color Filter

From:American Science & Surplus
http://www.sciplus.com/singleItem.cfm?terms=11551&cartLogFrom=Search

Color-For The Arts & Sciences tell a friend about this item so they can check it out
Good across the occupational spectrum, from visual artists to physics teachers-this full-service color paddle set comes with red, blue, green, cyan, magenta, and yellow gels; (2) diffraction grating gels-(1) at 13.5 lines/inch, double axis, and (1) 500 lines/mm; (2) polarizing filters; and (1) translucent white diffusing filter with 63% transmission. All gels and filters are 2-1/8" x 2-5/8" in cardboard frames 5-7/8" long, and there's a built-in spectral transmission chart for primary and secondary colors. Made in the USA.
92683 COLOR PADDLE $10.95 / EACH add to cart

See More Teaching / Demo / Lab Equipment

Thanks Kevin. If I went that route. I'd buy 2, one for each eyeball :)

Another Color Filter

From:American Science & Surplus
http://www.sciplus.com/singleItem.cfm?terms=11551&cartLogFrom=Search

Color-For The Arts & Sciences tell a friend about this item so they can check it out
Good across the occupational spectrum, from visual artists to physics teachers-this full-service color paddle set comes with red, blue, green, cyan, magenta, and yellow gels; (2) diffraction grating gels-(1) at 13.5 lines/inch, double axis, and (1) 500 lines/mm; (2) polarizing filters; and (1) translucent white diffusing filter with 63% transmission. All gels and filters are 2-1/8" x 2-5/8" in cardboard frames 5-7/8" long, and there's a built-in spectral transmission chart for primary and secondary colors. Made in the USA.
92683 COLOR PADDLE $10.95 / EACH add to cart

See More Teaching / Demo / Lab Equipment

If you look at the colour photo supplied for this product you can see off to the left what looks like Spectral Plots possibly for each of the supplied Gels . This is important . Just because a filter "looks" blue doesn't mean it will perform as intended .

The only way to know for certain is to "scan" the THX , AVIA and DVE blue filters using a Spectophotometer and compare the plots . I can do this . I've actually been meaning to do this for a while but never got around to it . The Company I work for sells such equipment and I Service them . Cool !

I think I'll also order this Colour Paddle and compare their Gels to THX , AVIA and DVE . No promises on when this could happen . Depends on how long it takes to get the Colour Paddles .I'll report back when I've got some results .

If I can figure out how to post graphics here that would make it easier for everyone to see.

Scott................... :)